open thread – November 22-23, 2019

by Alison Green on November 22, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,462 comments }

{ 1,462 comments… read them below }

  1. Diahann Carroll*

    This week’s post about asking for a raise was interesting and raised (heh) a serious question for me: does it make sense to ask for a raise when you feel you’re already being paid fairly and you know management advocates for you to get quarterly bonuses already? I don’t think it does, but I’m curious to hear others’ perspectives on this.

    I’m now seven months into my new job and still really enjoy what I do and the company I work for. This place has its problems like any other (e.g., some annoying and/or lazy people), but overall, it’s one of the best employers I’ve had in my nearly 10 year career. I work full time out of state from home; I get to set my own hours; I work on a variety of different projects, many of which are high profile and some of which I developed myself; and I’m a part of a lot of strategic initiatives that lead to fiscal growth for our company.

    I currently have the wrong title for what I do, and that’s because management didn’t really have a firm idea about what my role was supposed to be when I was hired (my position was newly created) – I came in, identified gaps in our company’s sales process, and filled them in, which turned my role into something else entirely. Based on my current job title, I make 50% more than others in my field with my experience level (23 months in this job function), so I’m technically very overpaid.

    My manager, however, just recently submitted a change request with HR to update my title to a more accurate title that we both agreed on. The new title, when it goes into effect, will put me slightly below the median nationwide salary for the role, which again, isn’t that bad given I’ve only been in this particular job area for 23 months and I don’t have all of the skills that people with my new title typically have (I’d be a content development manager, but I have no graphic design experience).

    I get quarterly bonuses and my last one, paid out last week, was paid out at 100% (my first with the company was paid out at 101% of a pro-rated amount since I’d only been employed with them for half the quarter). My grandboss sets my salary and is responsible for all raises and bonus calculations, and he always tells me he believes I’m doing a great job, so he wants me to get all of my bonus allowance. He also told me that he’s looking to add three new people to our team in various roles next year, so I know that’s going to affect our department’s budget. Given this, I figured that I’d be content to just take whatever merit increase I get in March because I’m not being underpaid by any means and my grandboss is trying to ensure my bonuses are always guaranteed. And when my bonuses are calculated in with my current base salary, I’m only about $3k shy of the median nationwide salary for my new job title. But then I keep seeing people say, “Don’t leave money on the table,” which makes a lot of sense to me too.

    TLDR; I’m being paid quite well for only 23 months in a particular field/job area, I’ve only been with my current employer for seven months and earn 50% more money than others with my same experience level, and reviews are about to happen in March. I have an excellent job with really good, affordable benefits, and I work full time from home. Should I still ask for a raise come review time if I get a small merit increase of between 1-3%?

    1. Catsaber*

      I am wondering this myself, because I’m in a similar situation. I am paid pretty well for my title, though my title doesn’t really reflect what I do – but if I was paid at market rate for what I actually do, then my salary would be a lot lower. We don’t do bonuses (state university) but my merit raises have always been on the higher end. I’ve been promoted twice in my 3 years here. I love my boss, and my team, and I’ve got a lot of really great benefits. More money would certainly be nice, but I feel like I’m paid fairly for my level – I’m even making higher than market for my title. So asking for more money just feels like…I’m being greedy?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Ha – same. That’s the exact word that popped into my mind when reading that thread and seeing people say things like, “Don’t leave money on the table.” I’m like, “But is that what I’d be doing??” Plus, I don’t want to get too well paid right now because my company has a habit of dumping expensive employees during downturns in the economy and I need my job and the benefits that come with it.

        1. Catsaber*

          Yes, I wonder if I am truly leaving money on the table. Being at a state university, budgets are usually pretty tight, so asking would probably get me a no. The best way to make more money around here is to get reclassified or promoted.

          Of course, I *am* leaving money on the table by staying at a state university. I could probably make more money at a big company, but I doubt my benefits would be as good. Also, having a good boss is priceless, and I don’t want to give that up!

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Wipe the idea of “being greedy” out of your mind! Asking for money for your services/employment duties is not greedy. Greedy requires you to not earn it, you are earning it. You’re not gaming the system or breaking rules to get someone else’s stuff. That’s what greed is, no just wanting to be compensated. Value is very subjective and we all value ourselves and others differently, the thing with employment is that we have to be on the same page in some sense with our employers for that amount to shake out in both favors.

        1. Malter Witty*

          I wonder if the C-suite people ever have those thoughts… “Am I really worth $2 million a year *and* stock options? I feel a little overpaid for my title considering what I actually do. ”
          hee.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Nope, the nasty ones just spoon feed it to the lower levels so that they can get one more ivory backscratcher this year.

            I say that as someone who actually has no issue with executives making big money, I get why they do.

            The issue with me isn’t “overpaid” people, it’s the underpaid ones!

      3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Ugh, I worked somewhere where they were really lazy about titles, it makes my resume a mess. It’s as bad as, say, me being the director of a llama barn (managing staff, operations, a budget) with the title of poop shoveler (uh shovels llama poop) because nobody could be bothered to update the payroll system. I’m sure it’s been a problem during my job search, even though my previous bosses could easily explain what the deal was because they too had incorrect titles.

    2. Herding Butterflies*

      I think you can ask, and yes wait until your annual review. I say this as it appears that there are a lot of positive changes happening that are to your benefit – but they may take a few months to come together – so if your review is in March, as you note above, then that would be a good time to look at everything and weigh it out.

      1. Waiting At The DMV*

        Waiting until the annual review to ask for a raise is actually not great. At many companies, budgets are locked in the months ahead of the actual reviews, so by the time you sit down with your manager the funds are already largely allocated. Definitely find out what the budget timeline is at your organization.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Factor in those new employees too –would they be reporting to you? Would you be training them or helping them manage their projects? That’s a pay-level difference right there.
      I’m no one to talk though…only time I’ve had the nerve to ask for a raise was when the company eliminated WFH during a gas price hike right after we’d been reorganized into a different division. (I got it, but I was so nervous I asked for “a raise” not a “raise of $X” , so I suspect I could have done better.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Re: the new employees. From what grandboss says, none of them would report to me, but one of our current team members would start dotted line reporting to me once grandboss reorganizes his position to do more writing-based work (I’m responsible for making sure all external communications are well-written and the messaging aligns with our corporate sales strategy).

    4. annony*

      You generally want to have a justification for why you are asking for more money. You probably don’t want to use the national averages because those indicate that you are being paid well (if I’m interpreting correctly). Instead think about what you are doing vs what they hired you for. Are you doing a lot more and at a higher level? If so it makes sense to ask for a raise. However, if you don’t feel like you can make that argument yet, you could instead talk to your boss about professional development and what she would need to see in order for you to get a raise or promotion. Not asking for a raise after one year isn’t a bad thing if you don’t feel you have a strong case for it yet and are currently being paid fairly.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Are you doing a lot more and at a higher level?

        I am, and my manager wants our small team to take on some more high-level work that I’ll be essentially leading, but it hasn’t happened yet. The thing is, with the title change, I’m not sure if HR will change the pay band for my role – I hope they do (most salary sites say the high end of the range for my new title is around $120-130k a year, which is way more than for my current title), and I know I’m already almost at the top of my current salary band, but you never know.

        1. Christy*

          It seems to me that you’d have the most long-term impact on your salary if you could get them to change the pay band on your role. I’d focus on that rather than whatever percentage increase. (Or do both!)

        2. Glitsy Gus*

          I think it’s fine to talk raise, but maybe that band is the real thing to bring up to your boss now, if that stays where it is for too long then it’ll be harder to get it moved down the road when you really are deserving of a significantly higher salary even if it’s under the same title.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would wait until the title change was authorized and then bring it up at your year review. Right now it wouldn’t make sense, given your title is so out of wack but it’s being taken care of. Then you can go at it with a “now that we’ve adjusted my title and with all *these* accomplishments in the last year, can we discuss an salary adjustment? I’m thinking about X%”

      Honestly, given how you’ve taken the place by storm and done well, I’d be shocked and actually angry if your manager doesn’t already give you a decent sized increase at the annual review time.

      1. Pam*

        I’d be shocked and actually angry

        Come on, it’s not like the manager brought cheap rolls to the potluck!

          1. Clisby*

            But everybody knows you bring the cheap-ass rolls, and I make mine after grinding the wheat I’ve grown in my backyard and milking my own cows, you piker!
            \

    6. Bagpuss*

      I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask, come review time, but I think that if you are looking to argue based on normal salries for the job, you probably need to be looking at you own local area, not nationwide figures.

      Alsothink about what you are bringing to the job and how you are benefitting the company – if you can point at concrete things like incresed volume of sales or higher profit margins due increaed efficieny, that’s great as they are directly measureable financial benefits you’ve brought the company. However, even if your role doesn’t have a direct financial result like that, think about what you are doiing, specificallym that is over and above what you were doing or expected to do when you started, and what added benefits / added value it brings to the company.

      If you are taking on new responsibilities in supevisng others then raise that.

    7. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’d need more info before I’d use the median nationwide salary argument as a justification for a raise. Is your position typically concentrated in areas with high COLs which will in turn drive up salaries? Also, how do those COLs compare to where you live? It sounds like your boss is a great advocate for you so I doubt you’ll ruffle any feathers if you ask for a raise. I might be more inclined to shore up the skills that I’m lacking in my new role (you mentioned graphic design) and then use that to advocate for a bigger raise when your next salary review comes up.

      Now, there is another case to be made too. With your new title, what skills are you missing and how big are those skills in terms of the overall component of your new title? You mentioned graphic design, is that a big deal for a content development manager? Like 10% of the role? Less? More? Where I’m going is if you’re already crushing 90% of the position and you just need need to fill in some moderate skill gaps, you could safely advocate for a bigger raise and feel good about your case. If however, you need a big boost in skills…say oh I don’t know…40% you’re technically pretty overpaid with your new title and I’d more on leveling up.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        See, the graphic design piece varies per industry per job for this title. I’ve seen job postings all over Indeed and Glassdoor for these jobs, and some of them only briefly mention design skills being preferred – the majority of the job (from what I’ve seen) is focused on creating written content, which I do. My manager also spoke to grandboss about hiring a dedicated graphic designer for our team (even though our company already has a shared service for graphic design assistance), so I’m not even sure if he would want me to focus on that aspect of the job – I’d like to, though, for my own personal edification and to ensure that, should I ever leave, I can get another content development job with a competitive salary.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Hmmm, ok that clarifies things. Your boss seems pretty forward thinking so you’d hope that they would advocate for a salary bump given the title change. That being said, if you haven’t done so already sit down with your boss and see how your role/workload will increase once the title takes effect and you might be able to put together a solid business case for why a raise is appropriate.

    8. Eponymous*

      Raise questions here, too, but a very different situation. Long story short, I feel I’m doing excellent work (difficult projects, improving practices) but I recently changed to part-time (fewer billable hours per week) and I’m not sure I can justify asking for more money.

      This summer my employer agreed to let me drop to 3/4 time (30 hours is the minimum needed to maintain benefits; I’m paid hourly) so I could go back to school part-time. Since my school schedule is somewhat inconsistent I’ve been removed from the pool of llama groomers and do “only” office work–proposals, budgets, data analysis, reporting, mapping–and allowed to work from home when necessary. I really appreciate the flexibility I’ve been given.

      That said, I end up doing a lot of difficult work. I had mentioned last week that we’ve had training and documentation issues–those are the reports I’m asked to write fairly regularly, in fact there are certain project managers that seek me out for those reports because they know I’ll really dig into them and figure out a bunch of stuff. I enjoy being able to solve puzzles like that to a certain point, but it’s becoming incredibly obnoxious because I shouldn’t have to be solving puzzles, our llama groomers should be writing proper documentation to begin with. I’ve been encouraging our standards team to use me to develop training, spoken to project managers about addressing concerns with llama groomers, and the mistakes keep happening.

      This past week I was given permission by a member of the standards team to give a new version of a llama grooming checklist to our groomers and it was well-received. A few days later I was told that the head of the standards team thinks that I should have made the checklist match our SOPs first, but I know that this particular SOP is up for revision and it hasn’t happened in months and won’t happen for months due to other issues. The new checklist needed to be put out there so our groomers would stop missing steps and causing more problems down the line!

      I know I can point to a long list of flusterclucks that I’ve sorted out and departmental improvements that I’ve made, but I almost feel like those are canceled out by the “part-time-edness”. Plus, there’s a department-wide reorganization coming up at the start of the new year, and I’m not sure I’ll be keeping my current supervisor or if I’ll be shuffled around to someone else who may or may not understand what-all’s been going on.

      1. Malter Witty*

        If you were working full time, taking into account the level of work you do, plus the value of benefits (paid vacation, time off, 401k match, health insurance) what would your FT hourly rate work out to be?
        Now compare that to your PT hourly rate. What feels like a fair(justifiable) hourly rate?

  2. nanushka*

    Hi all, avid reader, first-time commenter here. Several years ago, a colleague of mine whom I would consider a “work friend” was involved in a workplace incident and subsequently disciplined in a manner that seemed disproportionately harsh to me and some other colleagues. (That said, we only really got my friend’s side of the full story, as our employer reasonably refused, for employee privacy reasons, to comment on the exact nature of the incident or their response. That said, they seemed pretty miffed that our colleague shared his side of the story with us, which I thought was fully within his rights.)

    A number of us found the incident upsetting and we wrote a respectful letter to our supervisor in which we acknowledged the privacy issues at play and our lack of full knowledge but asked for some clarification of their general policies and procedures for responding to such incidents.

    My friend confided in me a number of times, and I also helped him edit some correspondence with our employer responding to the disciplinary actions.

    About a year later, my friend lost his job and has now sued my employer. (I believe the exact charge is age discrimination though I’m not sure of the details.)

    Now I have been notified by my employer that my friend’s lawyers have asked to take my deposition.

    Any advice on how to navigate this? FWIW I think I am pretty highly respected by my employer for my work, but I suspect they view me as not a “company man.”

    Do I need a lawyer? (Not sure I could afford one, though I really have no idea what the expense would be, never having been involved in any legal proceedings before.) Other things I should consider or keep in mind?

    Thanks so much!

    1. irene adler*

      Check with the local Bar Association website. They often have lawyer referral services. These usually come with a free 30 minute consultation (often by phone). So you can run the facts by the referred attorney and they can advise you re: whether you should hire an attorney.

      They should also have referral services for low-cost options.

      NOTE: when I used this service for an unlawful detainer situation, the attorney talked me through how to properly write and serve the 30 day notice. For free. It worked. Didn’t pay the attorney a dime (though I am most grateful for his advice!).

      1. irene adler*

        I had to give a deposition regarding an ex-employee. He claimed an on-the-job injury was causing lasting problems. He never reported the injury when it occurred. So the company was shocked to learn of this.

        I was asked questions to corroborate the details of the injury (because I was one of many who witnessed it). So I just told them what I observed. That’s all. They went on to ask questions about the ex-employee’s personal life. I didn’t know much about that so I just answered “I don’t know about that” to those questions.

        No repercussions occurred.

        1. valentine*

          You should have a lawyer because your friend will likely argue that the group letter, being their sounding board, and the editing show that you are on their side and think your employer is wrong, which you probably don’t want to say. You’re not going to instinctively know how to protect yourself.

          1. nanushka*

            Interesting point, and concerning. Luckily, I can likely rely a good amount on the fact that there were many details I was not privy to, so I can perhaps try to remain agnostic as to “picking a side.” But it’s true that I do/did have some concerns about how my employer handled the situation, and there is email documentation of that.

    2. Amy Sly*

      It’s a deposition. They exist to be the “first draft” of what will be talked about in court, so your job is to, as they say, speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. As such, the only reason you might *need* a lawyer is if you’re concerned about incriminating or contradicting yourself. (It’s rarely a bad idea to have a lawyer with you just in case, but a witness bringing their own lawyer to a deposition in a case like this is probably not expected.) So long as what you say is true and limited to what you speak to with authority — that is, what you saw and heard, not what you think someone else was thinking — you shouldn’t have any problems. It’s not your job to defend your employer or make your ex-coworker’s case.

        1. Amy Sly*

          The retaliation concern is separate, and while retaliating against employees for failing to commit perjury is stupid, I won’t conflate stupid with impossible. In that case, I second the suggestion above to see if you can speak to a lawyer about how to protect yourself. Not my area of law at all, but I would make the following recommendations:
          * Get a snapshot of your duties and treatment before you are deposed so that you can compare how the company treats you afterwards.
          * If you think HR won’t pile on with mistreatment, you may also want to memo someone there ahead of time that you’re concerned about your deposition being used against you at work, so they’re primed to listen afterwards in case something does happen.
          * Follow all HR policies for reporting mistreatment to create a paper trail.
          * Get as much as you can in writing and keep copies where possible while complying with information security rules to make sure your paper trail doesn’t disappear.

          1. Amy Sly*

            All that being said, remember Hanlon’s Razer: Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. (Or bureaucratic rules, which comes to much the same thing.) It’s possible that your company is completely on the up and up and wouldn’t dream of retaliation — I don’t know; I’m not there — so please don’t get so paranoid about possible retaliation that you become needlessly antagonistic.

            1. nanushka*

              Ugh, yes – malice or incompetence? I have definitely been left asking myself that question on numerous occasions. It can be so hard to tell at times!

    3. AndersonDarling*

      The only reason you would need a lawyer is if you think your employer is going to retaliate against you for telling the truth. A deposition is just a witness interview under oath and recorded. They are generally casual, just someone asking you questions about things you saw. If you don’t know what they are asking about (Do you remember a time when your boss said, “She is too old to handle this project?” kind of thing) then you say that you didn’t see that and they move on to the next question. You may have lots of information to give, or the questions may not pertain to you. Just be honest and don’t sweat it!

      1. nanushka*

        Yes, there’s a lot about the situation that I don’t know, and it was also early 2016, so my memories are truly faded. I’ll try to remember to just stick to the narrow facts of what I experienced.

        1. Not In NYC Any More*

          This is exactly what my brother, who is an employment lawyer, told me when I was part of a disposition for a large sex and age discrimination case. Stick to just the observable verifiable facts – do not editorialize, do not make inferences, do not suggest motives or what you “think” something means. Do not volunteer information that is not asked for. Ninety-nine percent of my answers were “yes” “no” “I wasn’t there.” If you stick to the truth as you personally observed it, you won’t need a lawyer.

          1. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

            All of what Not in NYC said – further, as I tell everyone I prep for depositions, remember that if “I don’t recall” was a good enough answer for a sitting president, it’s good enough for you!

            1. OhBehave*

              Yes. Answer each question succinctly and then stop talking. Nerves may make people ramble especially if there is a lag between questions.

            2. emmelemm*

              Yeah, just to further on this, try to answer everything as briefly as possible and answer only what was asked. My partner is a lawyer and when his clients get deposed, he tells them, “If the other attorney asks, ‘Do you know what time it is?’ and you are wearing a watch (or can see a clock, whatever), say, ‘Yes.’ Do *not* say ‘It’s 4:30.’ Wait until they ask you, ‘What time is it?'”

    4. Stornry*

      Since you don’t know the full details of the incident, just stick to the facts. If you’d been involved in whatever it was or had done something similar, you might have cause to worry that your part in it could expose you to discipline — but since you weren’t and didn’t (as far as you know), you should be fine. Likely they’ll ask you about general work policies or policies/procedures related to the incident as you understand them (to determine if they were clearly stated or legal) or you could be called as a “character witness”. Stay calm and only answer what you know – don’t guess or extrapolate. (Above all, be honest. We have had more than one person here fired simply for lying – and this is with overwhelming evidence, mind you – if they’d only admitted to the relatively minor infraction and apologized, they’d have been given another chance.) If your answers may not reflect well on the company, just remember that any retaliation by the company for answering questions would be illegal on their part.

    5. Bagpuss*

      As you have been given the information by your employer, can you ask them whether they will arrange for a lawyer to attend with you?

      1. nanushka*

        A lawyer in that situation would be looking out for my employer’s interests, not my own. I am a bit concerned about any possible repercussions to me that may come from my employer.

        1. Amy Sly*

          The employer will likely have a lawyer there to ask questions, in addition to the ex-coworker’s lawyer. As I noted above, you shouldn’t need a lawyer for the deposition itself, because you’re only answering questions honestly.

    6. SpellingBee*

      The one most important thing to keep in mind while actually giving your deposition is to only answer the question that is being asked. The classic example is the answer to the question “Do you know what time it is?” It’s not the actual time (i.e., not “3:35” or “I think around 3:30”), it’s “Yes” or “No,” as the case may be. Tell the truth, don’t ramble, don’t speculate, and don’t be afraid to say “I don’t know” or “I don’t remember.” It will be fine! It’s just information-gathering, and they’re taking your deposition because you were privy to at least some of the details.

    7. I am not a lawyer*

      So take this with a grain of salt – – but you might want to write down all of the facts as you remember them. And reread it at some point before you go to the deposition so that it is clear in your mind what you remember.

      Don’t let the deposition question be the first time you recall something because you want to be clear on your wording so that they don’t try to catch you with a wording issue.

      Also, “I don’t recall” can be your friend.

      1. nanushka*

        Yes, very good point. I’ve already started reviewing past correspondence and will be continuing to do so and to write additional notes before the deposition. I was worried about exactly what you mention.

          1. nanushka*

            Also a good point. I think that, for the things I do remember, I want to make sure I think through their details beforehand, so as not to misspeak or get tripped up by follow-up questions; for the things I don’t remember….well, I’ll leave them be.

          2. Amy Sly*

            Caveats: I’m not currently licensed and I was terrible at evidence.

            That said, my recollection is that reviewing documents made at the time of the incident is appropriate, though not necessary. However, be very, *very* careful that in refreshing your memory you don’t accidently implant false memories and that any new notes you write out to prepare are completely consistent with the earlier records. Those earlier records may be admitted into evidence at some point, and you do not want to contradict them with what you say in the deposition.

        2. SpellingBee*

          Don’t take the notes with you to the deposition, though. In fact, I’d recommend destroying them well before the date of the depo, as they could be discoverable if the plaintiff’s attorney learns that you have them. Also, given what you wrote you may be asked to identify documents or testify as to their content – insist on seeing the document if it isn’t given to you, and take the time to read it carefully to make sure it’s what you think it is. One more thing – don’t be afraid of silence! Answer a question briefly, then wait for the next. Don’t be tempted to keep talking just because the attorney is looking at you expectantly.

          Your employer’s attorney will almost certainly have a prep session with you prior to your deposition, not necessarily for your benefit but to find out what you know and how you’re going to testify. They’ll go over all of this with you, and more.

          1. Amy Sly*

            Honestly, because those notes could be discoverable, nanushka should most definitely NOT destroy them. Unless the plaintiff’s attorneys are complete idiots, the firm should be under a disclosure order already. The notes are probably not discoverable, having been made in anticipation of litigation, but if they are and then destroyed, that’s a real problem. Definitely talk to a lawyer on this point! (Though the company’s attorney may be able to advise you on this point without retaining your own.)

          2. Public Sector Manager*

            I think the notes OP prepares will be subject to discovery. There will be all sorts of questions about the notes (e.g. when were they prepared, why did you prepare them, did anyone help you, did you consult any other documents while preparing them, etc.).

            My advice is to not make the notes and for the notes you have made, just leave them alone. In the end, no one will care that you made a half page of personal notes.

    8. Another Lawyer*

      As others have said, it’s worth consulting with a lawyer. Even if you only end up paying for an hour of time and don’t pay for the attorney to come with you to the deposition, having someone explain the process and give you a few pointers about what to do and not do could be helpful.

    9. Ms. Moneypenny*

      It might be worth having a lawyer ask the plaintiff’s lawyers what they want to know. I assume they are seeking your deposition as a fact witness. Your employer’s lawyer MAY be available to represent you at the deposition at no cost to you, but know going in he is the lawyer for your employer and not for you. His goal is to protect the interests of your employer. Since this is work related, you can see if your employer will pay for a lawyer to guide you through the deposition process.

    10. Mrs. Picklesby*

      Litigation paralegal here to offer some tips:

      ▪ Some people do bring counsel with them to depositions, but in my experience it is uncommon. If you go that route, know that many attorneys do not charge for the initial consultation. They do charge an hourly rate for time spent preparing, traveling, and attending.
      ▪ You will probably be asked what you did to prepare, whether you made any notes about the incident, for clarification on any talks/emails/letters between you and your former colleague or your employer’s representatives about the incident, your recollection of certain events, and possibly your opinion about what happened overall.
      ▪ Really listen to each question and then answer–you either know or don’t know. The deposing attorney will ask follow-up questions for more details. It REALLY REALLY goes much faster this way!
      ▪ You aren’t a mind-reader (right?), so you want to avoid speculation about what people were thinking when they said x or what people meant by x.
      ▪ Echoing others’ comments—it’s best to be honest. I see these responses all the time: I don’t know, I don’t remember, I’ve never seen this before, I wasn’t part of that conversation, and I’m not sure.

    11. Sled dog mama*

      NAL, my brother is one and he has told me he always advises clients to be 100% certain they understand the question and if they are at all confused to ask for clarification.

    12. Observer*

      I kind of understand why the company was miffed – your friend told his side of the story and they can’t respond. Yes, he has a right to do this, and I would hope they wouldn’t punish him for it (if you’re non-exempt it might be illegal for them to do so, in fact), but I can understand feeling miffed.

      One thing is that if this goes to trial, you might finally find out what happened with that incident. If it doesn’t come up, it’s a good bet that the part of the story you don’t know is not as favorable to you as he would like you to believe.

      Whether or not you get a lawyer, you need to be very careful in how you answer any questions asked by the lawyer(s). Stick to facts that you know to be true, not opinions and theories or things that you heard. Answer ONLY the question you are asked, but don’t be stupid (like the guy who claimed that he couldn’t say for sure that his black employee is actually black or whether President Obama or Kwame Kilpatrick are black because he never asked them. Google “founders brewery racism”.)

  3. Lost my bonus*

    I know I am 99% in the wrong about this but could use some help in resetting here. 

    My company required everyone to work extra hours during busy season, so 60+ hours a week for 3 months. To compensate, we were given bonus PTO to be used after busy season.  

    This past year, we underwent a lot of changes which included creating a new department and new positions within that dept. I was promoted to that dept. When I took this job, I was given a 10k increase in salary and there was the understanding that there was so much work of course we’d be working during busy season. 

    However, because there was a new department and team, we actually did pretty well and were able to catch up on the backlog so it wouldn’t be necessary to work extra hours. 

    Here’s where I’m struggling: Im feeling like I got a pay cut and lost my bonus. 

    Logically, I know that yes if I don’t work those hours, I am not entitled to compensation for said hours. 

    My logical and emotional side are not syncing on this. I feel like my team and I have worked just as hard as everyone else  but we’re on the losing end of the stick here? People here would love to not work during busy season hours, and this is considered our reward–to not work the extra hours.

    I’ve more or less accepted it but now the feelings are creeping in. My boss is pretty reasonable and I acn have a good conversation with him, but is ther e anything I can bring up?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Wait, did you get overtime for those extra hours, or is it the PTO you’re missing? I’m a little confused.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Yeah, that was compensation for working 60-hour weeks — instead of extra PTO, you get a normal workweek. So I don’t think you can ask for more PTO when you aren’t putting in the overtime that earned it for you.

          It’s not quite the same, but we have Summer Hours here where we have to work a compressed workweek Mon-Thu in order to have a half-day on Fridays. It is always an adjustment to go back to working a full day in September, but we’re not losing anything – our schedules are just shifting, so we can come in a little later or take a full lunch or what have you.

    2. CatCat*

      What outcome are you hoping for if you speak to your boss?

      Do you want to go back to a team that works 60+ hour/week for 3 months so you can earn the bonus PTO? If that’s your goal, you can broach the subject of moving to another team with your boss.

    3. JB (not in Houston)*

      I don’t see what you could reasonably bring up? “I know I didn’t work as many hours as those people getting bonuses, but I think I should get a bonus anyway.” Yes, you worked just as hard *during the hours that you worked* as the people working extra hours, but you didn’t work for as long. Think about it as if you worked hourly. If you didn’t have to work overtime but your coworker did, would you feel comfortable going to your boss and saying “May worked 60 hours, so she’s getting paid overtime. I only worked 40 hours this week, but I did work hard during those 40 hours, so I should get time and a half for it.”

      It is totally understandable to feel like you lost something. You used to get something that you aren’t getting this year. But that PTO was compensation for doing something that you did not do this year. Instead, this year you got a raise and more free time. I get the feeling of loss, and maybe you would rather work extra hours and get the time off later, but I don’t see how you can bring this to your boss.

      1. Lost my bonus*

        Sigh.. I know i am in the wrong here. Yall are right.

        I think my underlying fear was/is, that as this new department grows, we’ll be suddenly not entitled to anything from the company – days off, summer Fridays, partaking in company events etc. We went from being a 20 person company where its all hands on deck, everyone works = everyone reaps the rewards to…being 100+ with more structure and organization. It’s been nice, but still a gradual change.

        1. valentine*

          You are missing the trenches, but 60 hours/week is wild, mandatory weekends (is there even a business need for this) are worse, and 50 isn’t that much better. I doubt the PTO was in a quantity large enough to really equal that and, especially if you couldn’t take it in week-long increments, you don’t come out ahead health-wise. Why not enjoy your time off and give yourself a chance to develop a new routine?

          A good company will want to give you perks (I hope you don’t mean you expect not to have any days off at all) for good work, regardless of how many hours it takes.

          1. Lost my bonus*

            “Why not enjoy your time off and give yourself a chance to develop a new routine?”

            I like that idea. I guess I am slowly coming around to it. mandatory extra hours and weekends is normal for our industry. We’ll still get days off, but that’s regular PTO that every employee gets.

        2. JB (not in Houston)*

          Wait, you’ll still get days off, right? Do you mean extra days off? I’m not sure why you think your department specifically won’t be getting the perks that everyone else gets. Is there something else going on?

          You’re totally right that things change as a company grows, and sometimes you’ll miss the old ways. But if your department is being excluded from participating in events or perks that other departments get, that’s worth speaking up about. Not things where there’s a legitimate reason for being treated differently, like the extra PTO time. But something like partaking in company events–I’m not sure what that means exactly but if you mean things like company picnics, company holiday parties, that kind of thing, y’all shouldn’t be excluded from things like that.

          2. Lost my bonus*

            Yes, you nailed it. I actually love how we’ve grown and become structured, and I enjoy my job otherwise. No one anticipated until now that we’d have gotten so caught up that extra hours wouldn’t be necessary.

        3. WantonSeedStitch*

          It sounds like you might want a different kind of workplace than the kind you’re going to be in. I know some people who love, love, love working at startups, with all the franticness and excitement that can entail. When the company gets too big, or goes public, or gets bought, they move on to another startup. You might give some thought to the idea of seeking a new position at a company that’s more in its early stages and hasn’t yet started experiencing the same kind of growth your current company is seeing–but if you do, make sure you find out in advance whether the compensations they give for the extra work will make it worth your while!

    4. Person from the Resume*

      You did exchange some complete days off in return for not working 20 additional hours a week during the busy time. So I understand where you see “loss” in that, but you are wrong and it will help to readjust your feelings.

      But I recommend that you keep reminding yourself that you worked 20 hours less a week during the busy period than others. I can’t imagine where those 20 extra hours come in. It must be on the weekends in addition to late nights so remind yourself of the weekends during the busy period where you were off and got to go out and have fun or just how you weren’t perpetually exhausted for 3 months for working 60 hour weeks. Remind yourself of the fun stuff you got to do during the busy season after work when other had to stay and work late.

      Basically whenever you start to think about how you miss those bonus PTO very consciously remind yourself of what you gained when you didn’t earn it.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I feel like my team and I have worked just as hard as everyone else but we’re on the losing end of the stick here?

        This is not true. Your team worked on average 20 hours less per week than everyone else during the busy season. So I recommend that you consciously and mindfully try to reset this incorrect feeling in your brain every time you experience it.

        1. Lost my bonus*

          Well, this is for the busy season coming up. There is still a chance we will work extra hours, but nowhere near the extent of the others. (maybe like…50 hours a week for 2 weeks). In that specific instance, I am not sure if we will still be granted a bonus (due to extra hours worked) or not.

          My team hasn’t asked nor do they seem bothered, so I shouldn’t be either.

          1. annony*

            I think you are borrowing trouble. If you end up working overtime and the company gives everyone else extra PTO but not you, then you can speak up and ask for some. Ask for an amount proportional to the amount of overtime you work. So if you are working 50 hours while the other departments work 60, ask for half the amount of PTO they are given. But chances are your company will not screw you over.

            But if you really miss the extra PTO, you can look into transferring back. There is nothing wrong with deciding that you liked your old job better.

          2. Natalie*

            What if you tried something new during some of that time that you were previously working? Pick up a new hobby or start getting regular pedicures or something.

            Sometimes when you are used to having been overstimulated, stepping away from that feels boring in comparison unless you’re deliberate about adding new and interesting things to the time you got back.

          3. theletter*

            Since your department is picking up this slack, you should use this as a selling point when you do your end of year performance review, which may earn you more monetary compensation.

            Wouldn’t you like to:
            – invest in new methods of self care such as a book club or a gym?
            – spend more time researching where to invest that money you earned?
            – invest more time into a hobby that requires regular practice?
            – reset your holiday plans so that you can spend more time celebrating?
            – bask in the glory of providing a regular routine for your coworkers?

      2. Lost my bonus*

        Ugh I know, I’m just in my feelings….they’re not always logical. So for the extra hours, come to work early, and leave late. Mandatory to work at least 5 hours on a weekend. I’ve gone 6 years not seeing sunlight for 4 months straight and this past April I worked for 20 days straight.

        And then use that bonus PTO to take days off here and there to relax.

        Yeah, now that I say it out loud, I get it. LOL.

        1. IT Guy*

          I know this must be tough to no longer have a perk you once had, but you’re working less and compensated more $$$. PTO in my org would not be considered a bonus, because it’s hard to use the amount we’re already allotted. Trading in PTO for money would be worth something though.

        2. MissGirl*

          My feelings aren’t always logical—none of ours are. Sometimes I get so stressed and upset about change before realizing, wait this change is good. Your adjusting to a new status quo and eventually your feelings will catch up. This a good place to explore it without consequences.

            1. OhBehave*

              Not only are you missing the bonus PTO, but perhaps you’re also missing the camaraderie you all enjoyed. I was in conference production for 20 years. Busy times were stupid BUSY. But we all had the best time together sharing our aches and exhaustion. I wouldn’t have traded that time for anything else. As others have suggested, relish the freedom of not working when other teams never leave.

              1. Lost my bonus*

                Honestly? YES. the bonding and the camaraderie. Didn’t want to say it but so much this. Some of the best conversations and laughs were had during late hours/weekends working.

        3. CMart*

          Nah, I get it. You’re right to be trying to talk yourself down from your feelings, and you’re absolutely right that it’s not something to complain about, but I understand where you’re coming from.

          Working 60+ hour weeks is busy, but it’s just adding more work on top of days you’re already working, and then you got to take extra entire days off later on. Now you just get to work a normal amount consistently. “I will work today, and tomorrow, and the day after and have a few hours in the evening to myself each day” feels different than “I will work all day today and tomorrow, but the day after I don’t have to do anything at all.” The hours work out to be the same, but the luxury of an entire day off is different than less-busy days.

          It’s much more sustainable to just have a 40ish hour work week all year long with standard PTO! It’s better for you in the long run, I promise. But I totally see how it feels a bit like you’ve been robbed, in a way.

        4. Jaydee*

          This sounds a lot like my situation, although I changed employers. It is a BIG change to go from that kind of always-on workplace (where you *need* the additional time off because of the intensity of the work) to a more consistent and structured 40 hours per week with the occasional busy periods of, like, a few days of travel or a couple weeks of 10 hour days for a big project or the occasional late night or Saturday in the office.

          Give yourself some time (6 months or so…maybe longer) to acclimate. And take advantage of the new structure to your schedule. Start making plans in the evenings, whether it’s a class at the gym or a book club or a weekly dinner with friends or just “Tuesday’s are my night to eat takeout and binge watch whatever I want.” Even if it’s as simple as changes to your routine at home, like cooking dinner more often or doing laundry during the week instead of on Sunday.

          Your day-to-day life will be calmer and smoother, and you won’t feel the need for all that PTO. You’ll find that the regular amount you get is probably sufficient to enable you to take actual leisure time instead of needing a day off to catch up on sleep or all the errands you didn’t get done while you were working 60+ hours a week for months on end.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      OK, I’m an English major doing math before coffee, so take this with a grain of salt:

      Without factoring in extra PTO, if your base hourly rate is more than $18.50 an hour, you technically are making less money.
      18.50/hour = 27.75/hour OT.
      three months = 12 weeks of 20 hours/week OT = 360 hours
      360 x 27.75 = $10,000

      However, as everyone else has pointed out, you are earning that $10,000 over a standard 2,080-hour work year rather than a 2,440-hour work year. That extra time HAS to be worth something.

    6. M. Albertine*

      It sounds like that bonus PTO is more like comp time. How many hours of overtime did it take to get one bonus hour of PTO? If it was something like 4 hours overtime = 1 hour PTO, can you reframe it as you got 3 extra hours of free time? Can the trade off of 3 hours during busy season be worth 1 hour at other times of the year?

      1. Lost my bonus*

        I think the range was from 2 days to 10 days. Only management received 10 days (which I was eligible to receive and did for this year). That makes a lot of sense to do it that way.

        1. WellRed*

          Unless I am missing something, I don’t see the appeal of working 60 hour weeks for three months in exchange for 10 days of PTO.

          1. CMart*

            Yeah that’s what, 20 extra hours a week x 13.5 weeks = 270 extra hours. In exchange for a maximum of 80 hours of PTO?

        2. Anon Here*

          I think there is a way to bring it up with the boss. You could say that, while you’re really grateful for your new role and the raise, you also enjoyed the long hours and having a few extra days off to do [insert activity]. Then you could offer to put in extra time in exchange for additional PTO when/if/as needed. Obviously, emphasize the former (working overtime to help the company succeed). Then you’d just come across as someone with a strong work ethic.

          But there’s a downside to that. They might take you up on it and ask you to work longer hours when it’s not an ideal time and/or doing work that you don’t enjoy. So consider whether you really want that or if, maybe, you’re just unhappy with the way the company’s changing overall and this is an easy thing to focus on.

    7. Lost my bonus*

      Thank you so much everyone for the kind & thoughtful responses. Knew I could get my gut-check here!

  4. Caryloo*

    I work in an office setting, doing data analytics and business maintenance for a global company. I recently started working part time at a bakery, because it’s my passion and I can get paid for it! The lead baker is 8 months pregnant, and they’re asking if I can step in as her back up/cover maternity leave. Can I ask my boss (we have a good relationship) if I can alter my schedule to do that? My current office schedule is 9-5 Mon-Fri, and I would be asking to do a slightly long day (8-5) on Mondays and Tuesdays, then work from home (9-5) or come in slightly late to core hours (10-5) Weds, Thurs, and Fri. Is that reasonable, to ask my full-time job to accommodate my part-time job? Any language you’d recommend using?

    1. Wednesday's Child*

      I would be more inclined to ask for the flexible schedule where you are actually in the office M-F. Asking to work from home three days a week looks like you are going to be working at the bakery during that time. I’d also look at whether your office is generally flexible with schedules for others or if it is a firm 9-5 place.

      1. Caryloo*

        Definitely flexible with scheduules – our core hours are 9-3, and you’re free to set your own hours around that. So we have people who do 7-3, 8-4, and 9-5 regularly.
        The whole reason for asking for the altered schedule is because to cover the bakery, I’d need to be there until 9am Wed/Thu/Fri. I figure WFH gets me online for the beginning of core hours, but I don’t want to lose the face to face value of being in the office. If it changes anything, we actually have 2 main offices and people frequently bounce between the two, so even being in *my* office doesn’t guarantee face time.

    2. irene adler*

      Does your FT job know about the PT job?
      What is your FT job’s policy on moonlighting?
      Might ascertain this before approaching them. Here, where I work, if they find out about moonlighting, they have the option to fire you (per employee handbook that states that they pay enough that you should not need to procure a second job-eyeroll!).

      1. Caryloo*

        FT knows about (and frequently and thoroughly enjoys the spoils of) PT job. Not sure about the moonlighting thing, but I *think* it’s okay – I know several people have 2nd jobs. I’ll double check though!

        1. irene adler*

          Good! Sounds like FT will benefit from the ‘goods’ you will be making. So really, no downside for them!

    3. AndersonDarling*

      If I was your manager, I’d be more concerned if you could handle working all those hours and not loose focus on your work. I can totally understand working a few hours here and there because it is enjoyable for you, but taking it on as a full responsibility is concerning. If you are really committed to doing it, I’d be ready to explain your backup plan if the bread doesn’t rise, or a huge order comes in at the last minute. Is there someone else to be your backup at the bakery? Tell your manager what your plan is in case you burn out working 2 jobs.

      1. Caryloo*

        I totally get that! The bakery is fairly new and still figuring out backups. That’s partially how this came up – the person who was going to cover the leave is no longer available, so they’re scrambling.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, without a backup plan in place, I just don’t see how your manager could agree to this schedule. There’s just too much of a risk that your full time job will suffer as a result of your increased hours at the bakery, and your boss will have to explain to her boss why that is.

    4. Quill*

      One of my former workplaces had a pretty solid policy of letting people work 10 hours mtwthr and only 4 hours on friday (worked for my lab group, we often had 7+ hr experiments and needed the setup time) so something like that may be more reasonable than your current more complicated proposal. Your boss is more likely to accept a simpler proposal: less to keep track of.

      That said, if your office has people who regularly work from home multiple days of the week, it could work! Just do your homework on moonlighting regulations and the work from home standards at work.

      1. Caryloo*

        I know WFH is not generally encouraged as a regular part of your schedule, but it is absolutely acceptable. My own boss works remotely 1x/week. We also have 2 main offices within driving distance of each other, and a large number of people work out of both, depending on the day, so it’s almost like being remote 1/2 the time. The reason for the complex schedule is that I’d need to be at the bakery until 9 on Weds/Thurs/Fri, so I wanted to maximize my time in the office Mon/Tues. I’m flexible on if I work from home or come in late on the other days. I’d pick one or the other though and stick to a regular plan so everyone knew how to find me.

    5. Mazzy*

      I’m a manger of some analysts for what that’s worth. Don’t ask, I don’t think you can be backup. Analytical jobs can get high paying if you take the lead and take on problems as they arise. Emergencies happen, or things that can be perceived as emergencies. Opportunities to add extra value randomly pop up. You’re shooting yourself in the foot by treating your money making career as a side or hourly type of gig. Your going to send the message that you view both jobs as somewhat equal. I would seriously question if you understand the breadth of your job if you think you can just do the minimum hours and on a flexible schedule, long term, and there won’t be consequences, even if the consequence is you doing the minimum and not going above and beyond. I know and have seen focused analysts automate away tasks that were seen as unautomatable and have seen them caught $10k errors just going above and beyond and looking at data in a new way, without me asking, because there is so much data that I can’t think about every possible scenario. I’d be afraid that you’d stop doing those things because of the other job. I’d be afraid I’d have to more actively monitor your work, which also makes you a less valuable employee, salary wise. Meaning I’d be less inclined to fight for a good raise for someone asking for what you’re asking for

    6. Kiwiii*

      It really depends on your workplace and how flexible and accommodating they are with schedules in general. Honestly, I can’t imagine mine would care at all if I said something like, “Hey, I have another commitment I’m hoping to work around for the next couple months, that will take time in the mornings Weds-Friday. Would it be alright if I flexed my schedule to make that work and worked longer days Mondays and Tuesdays for awhile? I can still be in at 10AM those days or WFH regular hours.” But it’s 100% a job where we sometimes jump on for an hour or two at night a few times/month and can do from home more or less as needed as long as we’re in the office Sometimes and keeping communication up.

      Last employer would have probably been okay with it after some discussion and reassurance that I wouldn’t be distracted from work, and then set me up with a formal alternative schedule to hold me to. They also had very little WFH approval.

    7. WellRed*

      I’m gonna be a naysayer here. I don’t think it’s ever a good idea to ask your FT job to accommodate your PT job, especially for something like a maternity leave.

      1. MissGirl*

        I’m with you on this. I’m a data analyst who moonlights as well. I take three PTO days a year to do it plus weekends and I only take off when it’s a dead time at my current company.

        This will last for a few months not a week. Like someone mentioned above what will you do if something goes wrong at the bakery, just walk away for the day? It’s one thing to back up someone else on a set schedule, it’s another to be THE person. You have to figure out your priorities.

        I get it; it sucks. I’ve had to turn down days that would’ve paid in the hundreds dollars in tips. I see my friends growing their skills and clientele while I get the worse assignments. But at the end of the day the company that gives me a great salary, a 401k, and insurance has to come first.

        But the fun I’ll have when I retire.

    8. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      No, I would not do this. Especially since you mentioned a global company, the expectation is that you are there to provide value to the company, and work the hours your company needs you to. Of course asking for a flexible work schedule is fine, and I personally have one. But not because I’m working a side job. If I was your manager, the request would seem really out of step to me, and might cause me to view you as an employee with 1 foot our the door. Or maybe I’m wrong! But it’s perfectly reasonable to tell the bakery that you have a full-time job, and will cover when you can outside of your normal working hours. But I would not try to make your primary source of income accommodate your hobby.

    9. Jaydee*

      In addition to what other people are saying, I think it’s also important to stress that this is short-term. It’s not like you’re asking for this schedule permanently. You’re covering parental leave, so it’s probably for what, 12ish weeks (hopefully)? If you’re an otherwise good employee and there will be treats brought in to make up for the inconvenience, it doesn’t seem wholly unreasonable to ask.

      1. German Girl*

        Yeah, changing your schedule slightly for 3-4 month sounds reasonable to me, because it’s just such a short time. You’re unlikely to burn out from that since you’re already doing pretty well with the FT and PT job combined.

        So I’d think as your manager I’d approve the schedule change for those 4 months. If you want it permanently, I’d still approve it only for those 4 months and reevaluate after 3 months whether I think you should be doing this permanently.
        I don’t think I’d approve the WFH idea. 3 days/week is a lot for positions that benefit from face time even in offices that do 1 day/week regularly.

        Anyway, I think you shouldn’t be afraid to ask, especially if you’re only asking for a short period of time.

  5. Anon for this*

    TL;DR: My coworker has used way more vacation time than she has actually earned because she hasn’t entered it on her timesheets. The boss doesn’t know… yet. What will the fallout be when he finds out?

    One of my coworkers, Jane, goes on vacation a lot. She has worked here for almost two years and gets three weeks of paid vacation per year, accrued incrementally each pay period. It’s a union job, so it’s not possible for individuals to negotiate for any more PTO than what the contract says.

    It turns out that Jane has actually used eight weeks of vacation time but only earned five weeks. Apparently, this happened because she didn’t realize that she’s supposed to enter PTO on her timesheet when she uses it. She assumed that our boss was entering her PTO. Every time she has requested PTO, our boss approved it, but nobody entered it on her timesheet and the boss didn’t notice when approving timesheets, so none of the vacation time got subtracted from her balance.

    She now knows that she’s supposed to enter her PTO on her timesheet and that she has taken way more vacation time than she’s earned, but I don’t think our boss knows, and I don’t think she plans to tell him. I think she believes that since her past timesheets are already approved, they’re not going to be changed now, so she still has five weeks of vacation time. She has already requested and been approved to take off the whole week of Thanksgiving and the whole week of Christmas, and since we have to maintain a minimum staffing level, some people who are lower in seniority were denied taking off those weeks.

    I guess this is more of a hypothetical because I don’t plan to get involved, but I’m curious about what happens in this situation. It seems to me that someone (our boss or maybe an auditor) will figure out sooner or later that Jane never entered the eight weeks of vacation time that she used before now. Jane’s perspective is that it’s not her fault because nobody told her she had to enter PTO on her timesheet, and our boss approved all of her vacation requests even though they exceeded her earned vacation time. My guess is that the company won’t see it this way and could consider it timesheet fraud if she doesn’t come forward on her own.

    I would imagine that if/when someone figures out what happened, they will retroactively change her timesheets and she will suddenly find herself with zero vacation time, but what will they do with the overage? I don’t think the company allows going into the negative on vacation time, so can they change the excess vacation time to unpaid time off and dock her next paycheck(s)? What if she leaves the company before they figure it out — can they (and are they likely to) go after her to pay back the excess vacation time?

    1. Rebecca*

      Oh wow, I think this is sort of a big deal for Jane. I might be wrong, but in my opinion, this is similar to getting paid too much, and noticing that yes, this is happening, but not saying anything because “they” shouldn’t have made the mistake. And she’s taken nearly triple the amount of PTO allowed already, with two more weeks in the hopper? That’s also unfair to Jane’s coworkers who presumably have to cover work while she’s out of the office. Would love to get an update on this! Will Jane be fired? Will she have zero PTO for the next 2 years or so, but in which case, she could just leave an get another job.

      1. Herding Butterflies*

        Ignorance of the law (or the rules, in this case) is no defense.

        At most companies I have worked, you can pull a negative on your PTO, usually up to 40 hours. But if you leave the company with a negative PTO balance, the salary is withheld from your final paycheck. I.e. you can’t walk out with ‘free’ vacation days.

        BTW, as a senior manager I would be giving the serious side eye to Jane excessive use of vacation and looking to see if it is a fire-able offense.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          I would also consider this a major character flaw. Yeah, if we were talking about one vacation then it is possible she wouldn’t have noticed the lack of PTO deduction. But she noticed at some point and exploited the situation. I don’t know if I would immediately fire the employee, but I would definitely be talking to HR about it and termination could be the outcome of the investigation.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          I would be side-eyeing her and her boss both, TBH. Eight weeks of vacation, and the boss didn’t notice?! That’s absurd.

          Last year, I wound up overspending my allotted time off by one day; our timekeeping system is really weird with how it displays PTO versus how PTO is actually allotted/tracked/used, so my boss and I both crunched the numbers and came out wrong. It was a huge mess and looked very bad for both of us. And that’s for one day, out of a total of 5 weeks PTO with both sick and vacation time. I can’t imagine how you’d overspend by multiple weeks and not have it flag!

          1. Anon for this*

            I definitely think the boss screwed up, too. I can see if he missed the timesheet discrepancy once or twice, but how did he approve the timesheets every single time without noticing that she was on vacation but didn’t enter it on her timesheet? He makes the schedule and he put her vacations on the schedule. He’s probably approving the timesheets without even looking at them, and it makes you wonder what else he’s missed.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Yeah, both your coworker and boss are going to get caught up here. Like you said – your boss is clearly approving timesheets without reviewing them, which indicates a lack of care (a problem for a manager). And your coworker’s story about not knowing she had to input her own vacation time is suspect as hell. That’s usually the kind of thing HR explains to new hires and it’s typically written in the employee handbook.

          2. Autumnheart*

            No kidding. EIGHT weeks? That’s one week off every month up to this point. Boss didn’t notice that Jane was gone for a week for every 3 weeks she worked?

      2. Mazzy*

        This is nuts! Basically the same as not showing up for work. Without the union, she would probably be fired. Not sure if the union will fight for her though

    2. Midge*

      I don’t know whether to be more WTF over her not knowing how timesheets work, her boss not noticing what they were approving, or her thinking that she still has 5 weeks PTO owed to her after already taking more than she should have. That feels like the equivalent of “the price tag fell off so you have to give it to me for free” thing.

      I definitely want a follow-up on this one!

      I can’t imagine a situation in which she doesn’t get in hot water for this. It’s one thing to have a misunderstanding and make an error. But now that she understands the error planning to take even more vacation time feels like theft, and not fixing the errors feels like fraud.

      1. Liz*

        This. I mean i get many company’s time systems are confusing; my own is and I am not a fan. BUT that being said, I know how it works, I routinely check to make sure I have enough PTO to cover what I want to take off, and if there’s any issue, i look into it. So I would have noticed that my boss (if responsible for inputting my PTO) had not been doing so and would have asked about it.

        Call me skeptical, but I find it hard to believe she didn’t know and didn’t do this deliberately.

        1. Shhhh*

          Yeah, I find my current and former workplaces’ time systems confusing…so I also keep a record of what I think I’ve accrued and used to make sure what I think and what the time system says match up. I know exactly how much vacation time I get in a year–as do most people I know–so I also find it hard to believe this wasn’t deliberate or, at the very least, willfully ignorant.

        2. annony*

          Even if she didn’t know, she does now. So all the additional vacation she is taking going forward is definitely fraud.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Yeah, I can see her explanation for how she got into this predicament. I’m willing to give her credit for not doing any of that intentionally. But once she knows what happened, any vacation time taking after that is absolute, no questions asked, fraud.

            1. Fikly*

              I don’t know, she can count, right? She knows she gets three weeks vacation a year, max, and she’s been there less than two years. So she has earned less than six weeks total, but has taken eight weeks. Regardless of whether or not it had to go on the time sheets, that’s too many vacation days.

              1. Rusty Shackelford*

                It should be noticeable if she takes it by the week. If she takes it by the day, I can see losing track. I mean, it’s eight weeks over the course of two years. It’s stupid, but it’s not SO stupid that it’s unbelievable. Not to me, anyway.

        3. Kat in VA*

          Ours is wonky in that when it shows your vacation balance, it doesn’t show the future vacations you’ve already put in for and had approved, so you have to keep a running tally to make sure you don’t go over your allotted days (in our case, 25 days of use-it-or-lose-it, no rollover).

          So I might look at my vacation pot and see that I have 120 hours left but it doesn’t show the eight PTO days I’m taking in the future for Thanksgiving/Christmas or whatever.

      2. Anon for this*

        That was my exact reaction when I found out about this! Including the fact that the analogy I used was saying, “There’s no price tag so it must be free.” I can excuse her for not knowing she was supposed to enter her own PTO, but surely she realized that there is a limit? Our PTO balance appears on every pay statement, so I don’t know how she didn’t wonder why her PTO kept increasing every week even when she used some of it.

        I am very interested to see how this unfolds and I will post an update when I find out.

        1. Herding Butterflies*

          I know Alison says to not get involved in this stuff, but I am vengeful enough that I would anonymously be sending this to HR. Especially because there seems to be no remorse on Jane’s part.

          1. Cat Fan*

            Me, too, especially if I would be eligible to take those holiday weeks off if she weren’t already doing it.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Yup. She’s not just stealing from the company, but she’s also screwing over her coworkers.

          2. The New Wanderer*

            At my company this is an Ethics violation and there is a hotline for reporting that sort of thing. I think the usual recommendation is to first talk to the coworker and recommend that they talk to their boss, but it’s also acceptable to say this is above your pay grade (since it’s the manager’s responsibility) and let the investigation sort things out.

            No one takes 3 extra weeks of vacation without realizing they’re way over the line on what’s allowed; even if they thought the manager should have been recording it as PTO, they’re still responsible for knowing that they only have 5 weeks accrued. And no one’s manager should be so far out of the loop as to not notice their employee somehow took a total of 8 weeks of vacation within two years. The usual resolution here is false time charging = dismissal for the employee and at minimum a write-up for the manager.

          3. Partly Cloudy*

            What Jane is doing is stealing. Alison wouldn’t say to turn a blind eye to someone pilfering money from the petty cash box. I definitely would report it.

            1. Windchime*

              I agree. At my workplace we have an electronic timekeeping system. We are required to click a box that says “I attest that all of my vacation and sick time taken are reflected on this time sheet” before we submit it for our manager’s approval. The manager is the one to grant/deny the time off, but the employee will be absolutely held responsible if time is taken off but not recorded.
              Jane is stealing wages from the company.

    3. ACDC*

      This sort of thing happened to my mom, but with an opposite resolution. She’s salaried and doesn’t submit a time sheet for approval, but she puts in their HR software when she uses a PTO day. Her boss was forgetting to approve them so she was still getting the day off and paid her full salary, but the PTO wasn’t being deducted from her accrual bank. Each time this happened, she would notify her boss immediately but the reaction was always “oops, well now you’ll get an extra day off!”

    4. Anne of Green Gables*

      If I found out an employee knew they were getting a benefit they hadn’t earned and didn’t tell me, I would be livid. I also can’t speak for your employer, but when I’m approving vacation time, I’m approving that the individual can be out that day–it’s purely a staffing level decision. I don’t keep minute details on how much time each employee has–that’s their job. So from my point of view, the boss approving more vac time than the employee has is on the employee, not on the boss. (Now, I also have to check that what people enter on their timesheets and what they asked for match, so I would have caught this on the other end. But that’s what is required in terms of timesheet approval at my workplace.)

      1. HugsAreNotTolerated*

        When we submit our PTO requests, we have to send a screenshot of our current amount of PTO accrued so that our manager can see that we have it available to use.

        1. Anon for this*

          Our boss can look up our PTO balance at any time, and I’m not sure whether he did or not before approving Jane’s vacation requests, but it wouldn’t have done any good because it looked like she has 5 weeks available.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        If I found out an employee knew they were getting a benefit they hadn’t earned and didn’t tell me, I would be livid.

        This is why I recently told my manager when ADP screwed up and gave me an extra 10 hours of vacation than I was owed at the time. His response was, “So why is this a problem? Extra vacation is great.” But I told him, I had to say something because a) we have an accrual cap, and this extra time will screw that up for me next year (our vacation time rolls over) and b) I didn’t earn it (yet). I don’t take things that don’t belong to me, and I’m not trying to lose my job over a measly extra day off – it’s not worth it.

    5. Commuter*

      At least where I work, we’d dock her pay moving forward (maybe spread it over a few paychecks if it was significant) and have a serious conversation with her and her supervisor about how timesheets work. Any vacation she didn’t actually have would be unpaid time off.

    6. ThatGirl*

      As to your last question, I know that in Illinois, if you leave with accrued vacation time they have to pay it out; if you leave with a deficit they take it out of your last check. I feel like going negative on her vacation time is more likely than trying to claw back pay.

      1. fposte*

        I’m seeing that they need employee agreement to be able to deduct it from pay in IL, but that may be a pro forma signature that employees regularly give (I haven’t, though).

        1. ThatGirl*

          Ah, I’ve just always been told that, it’s entirely possible I signed something without realizing it when starting jobs. I’ve never left a job with a PTO deficit, though.

    7. Pretty Fly for a WiFi*

      It sounds like timesheet fraud, but in a union setting she’ll most likely not get fired. They could dock her pay, as long as she gets minimum wage (and as long as she’s not exempt – though they may be able to go around that). But if your payroll system allows for it (and most do), they will dock the extra vacation hours she took from her current total and let it go into negative. She won’t be able to take vacation until those amounts come back into positive. That’s my guess – if the union gets involved, which most likely it will if she’s found to have broken a company policy. If I were you or your coworkers, I’d be furious with her! I’d like to take an extra 3 weeks of vacation too! Here’s the problem the company will have now – because you’re part of a union: your coworker has set a precedent. If the company doesn’t catch and punish her in some way, any one of the rest of you can say, “but you did it for Jane!” and the union will back you up and say to the company, “If you did it for Jane, you’ll have to do it for all.” That’s the company’s problem… it also seems to me that someone isn’t reviewing timesheets, so, really, it’s the company’s fault.

      1. Anon for this*

        I think it was an honest mistake at first, and I assume she is going to start entering her PTO on her timesheet from now on, but to me, what makes it a problem is that she knows her timesheets/paychecks were wrong and didn’t say anything. I have messed up my timesheets, sometimes in my favor and sometimes against, and had the boss not catch it, but I always notified the boss immediately that a correction was needed to make sure it didn’t look like I was trying to falsify my timesheet.

        I think you’re right that the union could make it more of an issue, because if Jane were not a union employee, the boss could handle it at his discretion, even give her extra PTO if he wanted (which still wouldn’t be fair, but there would be nothing anyone could do other than complain). Since the union has very firm rules on PTO, the company can’t just make an exception for her.

        I am honestly surprised that no one has turned her in yet. We do generally avoid “tattling” on one another, but I have to think someone who was denied vacation because she was higher in seniority would be pretty mad about it and want to turn her in,

        1. Person from the Resume*

          So Jane is talking about this to lots of co-workers even the ones she’s screwing by taking extra days? Wow! Dumb on her part. But not a lot of integrity with the co-workers.

          Is this a union/blue color attitude with the boss and management being the enemy of the worker?

          1. Anon for this*

            I’m not sure who Jane has told. It’s possible that she just told one person and that person spread it around. I found out from someone else, who was complaining about being denied vacation for the week of Thanksgiving because Jane, Bob, and Joe were already going to be off. I said, “How does Jane have any vacation time left? Didn’t she just take another 2-week trip in September?” And that’s when he told me the whole story. But I don’t know how he found out.

            The one mitigating factor here is that Jane has been screwed over very badly. She is the lowest paid employee in the department because she was hired as a junior llama groomer (along with one other guy who has since quit). There weren’t enough applicants for the junior llama groomer position because the pay sucks, so after Jane and the other guy were hired as junior llama groomers, the position was reposted as a senior llama groomer. Three other people who are no more qualified than the junior llama groomers were hired as senior llama groomers at significantly higher pay, and Jane is still getting paid as a junior llama groomer. She is understandably bitter, and maybe that is affecting how she’s handling the situation. And maybe that’s why nobody has turned her in.

            1. I'm A Little Teapot*

              She didn’t get screwed over. She could have addressed the pay gap. If they didn’t address it, THEN she’s be screwed over. She’s free to find a new job too.

              Look, Jane committed timesheet fraud. The first time? Error. Second+ time? Intentional. Consequences vary depending on the company, but could include termination, discipline, revocation of upcoming approved PTO, docking paychecks until back in the black, or any combination of those.

              As for you – stay out of it. And don’t screw up the same way.

              1. Anon for this*

                I’m not saying she’s justified in committing timesheet fraud because she got screwed over in pay, but I can imagine bitterness over the situation clouding her judgment. She has tried (and is still trying) to address the pay gap on numerous occasions, and she is also actively job searching because of it. That’s why I’m wondering what will happen if she leaves before management finds out about this or while she’s still in the negative for vacation time, because there’s a strong chance she’ll be leaving soon.

                I don’t plan to get involved because all I know is hearsay

            2. Donna*

              With her bitterness, I really dont think she did the PTO “mistakes” by accident, and did it deliberately to “get back what’s owed to her” . And it sucks that Jane got “screwed” by the title/pay, but making up for the discrepancy by overusing her PTO is not okay. She needs to use her words like an adult and speak to management about the pay differences, or she should get another job.

              1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

                It appears she has done that and the company is doing nada. I can see Jane’s ide here.

            3. Kat in VA*

              Helping herself to extra PTO she didn’t earn and screwing the company – and her coworkers – is no different than taking home a bunch of office supplies or adding a little extra personal something to the Amazon purchase on the company credit card and justifying it as, “Well, they screwed me on my pay rate so this is a fair payback.”

              Theft is theft. Bitterness aside, she jacking over coworkers who might otherwise be able to take time off if it weren’t for her intentional and conscious decision to game the system to her benefit.

              People like this screw it up for everyone, no matter what the backstory. :(

          2. valentine*

            Was she paid because the timesheet said she worked on days she was off or has leave been unpaid and her manager just didn’t notice?

            You can ask the boss, as though you’re just curious what the policy is. Jane is correct that she still has five weeks. She has however much she wants until someone says something to someone who can correct it, and I would be the one to say something, on behalf of the less senior people who have to work prime holiday weeks while Jane gets unlimited PTO, in violation of union rules.

      2. Stornry*

        Conversely, the company can avoid setting the precedent by implementing disciplinary action. They won’t “have to allow it for others” if they don’t allow it for her. Where I work – local gov’t, very unionized – this is time sheet fraud (i.e. theft) and “Dishonesty” of any sort is a fire-able offence.
        If you’re worried about looking like a tattle-tale, you can always be a bit confused and say to Boss, “I was looking at the vacation schedule to see who else would be in during the holidays and noticed that Jane asked for [the week]…. I thought she already took her 3 weeks. Am I missing something? I just wanted to make sure [new employee] got their chance to use their PTO, too.” After all, it may be an FMLA thing that you know nothing about, this way they know and you’ve done your part.

    8. Bubbles*

      This is a big deal. I work for a government agency and we had three people fired for this. The bottom line is that she is falsifying her time sheet and that’s a HUGE deal. Most of the time I would roll my eyes about it and let it go, but the fact that other people in the office are suffering consequences (not getting approved for PTO at holidays) because of her, I think you should consider reporting it.

      A company that cares to follow the rules would not be able to dock her paychecks. She worked those hours in her current pay period, therefore she is to be paid for them. However, they can require her to pay back the PTO. It would be pretty shitty of them to demand it upfront so they would likely work out a payment plan or automatically deduct her future PTO for this. A company that wants to retain good employees should be careful about how this is handled because other employees are watching.

      I don’t think nickle-and-diming hours is a big deal. If someone comes in 30 minutes late one day but stays later another day, fine. They can manage their own schedule. But when you are talking about WEEKS of excess PTO that is preventing others from using their base PTO, that’s when there is a big problem. Honestly, I genuinely question the integrity of a person who can perpetuate this kind of fraud. She is not a team player and has shown that she will put herself first in conflict. I wouldn’t be able to trust her.

      1. Rebecca*

        Your last sentence is key here – I mean, if it happened once, that’s one thing, you notice it, tell the boss oh hey, I took a week off, but my pool still shows 3 weeks, did we miss deducting it? But this? She has purposely taken off this time, she has to know it’s much more than allotted. And it is fraud. She has literally taken off an extra month plus one week of work, and it’s only November, and she expects 2 more full weeks? This will not end well.

      2. Rose Tyler*

        I agree with this. If other people are being prevented from taking PTO or getting worse shifts, then you should tell the boss because that just really sucks and impacts more people than just Jane. Allison has scripts on how to basically say “I heard this thing, I don’t know if it’s accurate but it sounded like something you would want to be aware of so I’m bringing it to your attention and you can decide how to handle”.

        1. Ashley*

          I think whoever was denied has standing to ask the boss, but anyone else is being a bit nosy. And by standing I would say something like Jane seems like she has been got a lot already this year and is taking the holidays not that she is lying / not fixing her timesheets.

      3. carpe diem, but not like jane*

        I agree entirely with Bubbles. Especially that last statement.

        My thought is – how do you know about it? There was that recent letter about someone tracking coworker absences (which was unanimously ridiculous), so I hope it isn’t that. But did Jane confide in you? Do you do anything with timecards? Is it office gossip? Do you work closely with her and are helping cover for absences, so it’s a pattern of behavior? Are you not feeling more upset because you’re senior to her and still qualify for holiday time off, while others have vacation requests (that they’ve actually saved for!!) denied?

        Most of all – WHEN management finds out and conducts an investigation, would keeping mum reflect poorly on you?

        Jane has been there for two years and nobody has bothered to train her in timecards? She had to have noticed her PTO increasing each paystub. IMO, all signs point to this being deliberate! It’s an excuse to pretend that ‘what’s in the past stays in the past.’ It’s also an excuse to pretend that you don’t know how timecards work and then proceed not to ask anybody for two years. As Bubbles said: “She is not a team player and has shown that she will put herself first in conflict. I wouldn’t be able to trust her.”

        1. Anon for this*

          I heard about this from another coworker (not Jane). I’m not sure how he found out. It sounds like Jane told somebody about it, because the story I heard was that she didn’t know she had to enter PTO on her timesheet and thought the boss was entering it, which sounds like it was from Jane’s point of view.

          I don’t feel comfortable making that kind of accusation because I don’t have access to Jane’s timesheets, I don’t track her absences, and although this information is consistent with my gut feeling that she takes a lot of vacations (I have wondered on numerous occasions how she still has any vacation time left), I don’t have concrete evidence. I am senior to her, so she’s not affecting my vacation eligibility, so I don’t really have grounds to complain. Am I obligated to report what I think know based on hearsay? A lot of people know about this, so I think at worst it will reflect as poorly on me as on the other people who head about it and didn’t report it.

          1. Partly Cloudy*

            Yes. You should report it, then it’s up to management to investigate and if it’s true, handle the situation accordingly.

            When a crime is committed, you report it to the police and they investigate. You don’t wait until you yourself have collected the fingerprints to prove it, that’s their job.

    9. Person from the Resume*

      Honestly I would be inclined to inform my boss because Jane’s using vacation time she doesn’t have is preventing people with lower seniority from taking leave.

      It sounds like Jane truly didn’t understand that she was making a mistake at first, but once she found out she decided to take as much advantage of it as she could and make it worse instead of coming clean and correcting things immediately. She’s consciously lying that she still has vacation available.

      I’m guessing that if she’s found out after leaving the company (so very unlikely), they won’t come after her because it’s too much work. It is also partially your boss’s mistake for approving incorrect timesheets.

      If she’s found while she is still working, she could get fired. Once she realized her mistake she taking advantage of it so she’s consciously committing wage theft. If they don’t go the firing route, I’d would expect her vacation days to go to zero and possibly in the negative. They could also make her take it unpaid meaning she was overpaid over the last two years and owes the company money.

      It depends in large part on how good your management is and if they are willing to do the right thing and push people or if they prefer to brush things under the rug and ignore problems. I think it also depends on what your pay and vacation system can support.

    11. BlueWolf*

      I can understand how she might not have known that she had to put the PTO on her time sheet. In our system, when your PTO is approved it automatically goes on your time sheet, so you only have to add it manually if you are out unexpectedly (like for a sick day). However, she should have realized her PTO was not being deducted and that she was way over her allotted days. Now that she has realized the error she has an obligation to point it out to her employer so that the error can be corrected. For example, I once realized my employer was deducting too much from my paycheck for my medical premium. Once I pointed it out to them, they had an obligation to pay me back. If the opposite had happened, I would have had an obligation to point out to them that I was overpaid and would have to pay back my employer. Her manager should have been reviewing her time sheets more carefully, but it still does not remove her obligation to report the discrepancy. This is not a “bank error in her favor”. She was being paid for time she was not working, which is not ok.

    12. Donna*

      I dont believe that Jane doesnt know how a time sheet works, unless she is a fresh grad and her trainer didnt show her how to use the time sheet software. And even still, my gut says she faking ignorance. Most importantly, i dont get how this has gone on for so long. I mean she has been there for 2 years!!! I dont get how you fill out time sheets improperly for 2 years! Seriously?!?!?

      Now should she be fired? I think it depends, on how she was filling out her time sheet when she was out. Because to me, if she takes a Friday off, she would only put 32 hours on her time sheet. So anyone could see pretty quickly that 8 hours are missing. Given that, are we sure she hasn’t been taking the vacations as unpaid time? I think if it is unpaid time off, then there isnt much of an issue, especially if the company doesn’t have a policy against taking unpaid time off and saving PTO.

      However, I think it is a HUGE issue if she put 40 hours on the time sheet and worked less hours, which would be fraud. Because i’m sure if she put 40 hours on the timesheet, the boss assumed she worked extra that week to save PTO, instead of not actually working the 40 hours. Because WTF, how do you put 40 hours down, if you didnt work the 40 hours.

      1. Anon for this*

        The company does not allow taking unpaid time off unless PTO is exhausted, and even then unpaid time off requires approval (and is usually only approved for something like a family emergency or extended illness, not because someone has already used all of their vacation and wants to go on a cruise).

        The way the timesheets work is that the supervisors enter their employees’ normal schedules, and employees are supposed to enter any changes, such as overtime or PTO. Even if we don’t log into the timesheet software, our timesheets are automatically filled in with 40 hours per week, so she didn’t enter 40 hours of work on her timesheet during the weeks she was on vacation; it was pre-filled and she just didn’t change the work hours to PTO hours. So, her timesheets for those weeks say that she worked 40 hours and she was paid accordingly, but she didn’t actively enter the hours, just neglected to change the hours to vacation time.

        I can’t know for sure, but I am fairly sure she enters her overtime in the timesheet software. I highly doubt she worked overtime without getting paid extra and didn’t notice that.

        1. Donna*

          ohhhhhhhh. okay so I kinda (but not fully) get why she thought her manager was inputting her PTO. If she was only at the company for like 6 months, I could see how she could be going on a vacation without using PTO. Especially since the system auto-fills. However, I still think that after two years, she should know how the program works. I still think this is deliberate. She still should have been keeping track, and at least reviewing her time sheets. Even now, she is still wrong for not flagging this.

          Your company should really turn off that auto-fill option in the software if they can, because i can see others exploiting this loophole. And lastly, i feel like her manager shares more of the blame than i originally thought. If he is suppose to be inputting her schedule into the system, he should actually be doing that and include her vacations into the schedule. I feel like he was doing his job because he wasnt aware of how many people he had working vs on the schedule. Because in that case, people can be schedule, be no-show and this manager won’t notice, what the heck?

    13. alacrity*

      Does your company have an Ethics hotline like EthicsPoint? I understand not wanting to get involved, but this is pretty egregious fraud, and the anonymous hotline was created for situations like this. Basically write what you have written here and as much detail as you feel comfortable with (but, and I can’t stress this enough, please include her actual name on the hotline report instead of the very vague “an employee”), and the company is now on notice to investigate instead of waiting for the boss to notice (which it sounds like may never happen) or an auditor (I honestly have no idea how often time sheets are typically audited; there are much higher risk areas to focus on). As to what happens to her if/when it is discovered–I don’t know, but I do know even the appearance that someone is getting more time off than they deserve can build massive resentment and discord within a department extremely quickly.

    14. Bagpuss*

      I think it is a big deal and that it is very likely that it will come to light sooner or later.

      If she has been over by a day or two then I think that she could definitely argue honest mistake, but you cannot book a weeks at a time without knowing you are using time off. If you know you get 3 weeks a year you can’t pretend not to have notived thatyou have been on cvacation for 4 or 5 weeks.

      I would view it as fraud.

      And also, if I know that a coworker was doing this, knowing that they are taking time they haven’t earned, i would absolutely ntify HR (anonymously if necessary) – Jane’s actions are depriving other people who would otherwise be abelt ot use the time off thy have earned, and presumably her absences aklso mean more work for whoever covers her job.

      (if no one covers her tasks when she is off then it sounds as though she is under-employed, and it may be that her role isn’t neded, or isn’t needed as a full time role. )

      I would see this as gross misconduct and would be seriosuly considering dismissing her, if she were an employee of ours, and the overpayments would be getting clawed back from her final pay.

      if she owned up I would be prepared to conser not firing her, and negotiatingfor her to repay the overpayments in installments.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Also, if I founf out that other employees knew and said nothing, I would be questioning their integrity as well . I don’t expect employees to be telling me about evey minor misdeameanor of a collegaue but if you know that another employee is stealing or committing fraud and you chose to conceal it then that is a whole other ball game.
        And this is fraud.

    15. Sharrbe*

      They could apply that vacation time and let her PTO balance be negative – “paid off” as new hours accrue until she makes her way back up to zero?

    16. cheese please*

      The type of union work I am familiar with was always clocking in / out at the door, and HR would compare these clocking times to timesheets periodically to verify that the employee was here etc (also because they would get pay deducted for being late and other things like that). In that case HR would be able to see that Jane was not at work but was paid as if she was at work and follow up with her boss re: her timesheet discrepancies.

      Then I would assume the union would step in to negotiate a fair agreement with the company and Jane. Depending on relations they may try to peg the boss as ignorant and the timesheet fraud on him / her for not putting in PTO and it could be a huge mess. Or Jane may agree to have negative PTO hours and not take any more time off until she has accrued a positive balance (this way she isn’t paying back the company anything, which always feels icky)

      It’s MAYBEEEE possible your boss knows and is doing Jane a favor? In my union experiences all employees watched each other’s time off like a HAWK and would not hesitate to complain to HR / their boss / a union rep about how much time another coworker was on vacation.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        If the boss knows, the boss is violating the terms of the union contract and is also committing fraud.

      2. wittyrepartee*

        Huh. I’m part of a union (for white collar workers if that means anything), and none of my coworkers ask about anyone’s vacation habits. Like… we’re not watching each other like hawks. Admittedly, if I saw someone I work closely with gone for 8 weeks I’d be assuming they had some sort of health condition or work from home dealio going on.

        1. cheese please*

          I worked in a very different (sadly toxic) union environment as a supervisor and my employees would constantly ask me why Sally wasn’t at work today because she took a week off last month etc. It was more related to how some supervisors let employees miss days (albeit unpaid) and not follow procedures for attendance violations, and often these supervisors only made exceptions like these for certain employees. So a bit different. Your workplace sounds much nicer! :)

    17. Alex*

      I don’t know, but this problem is rampant where I work, because there is no formal way of tracking vacation time. So there’s major resentment between honest people and people who abuse the fact that no one is paying attention.

    18. QCI*

      I think the company should just dock what she’s used from what she has left until she has what she’s supposed to have. So she just wont have any PTO for a good chunk of time.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Dang. I miscalculated by a single day my first year here, and I told my boss I was going to cancel a previously approved vacation. Yes she pointed out that I hadn’t allowed for my floating holiday so I was all set — but the point is, the HONEST thing to do is cancel any vacation scheduled in the coming calendar year to which you’re not entitled!

    20. Oxford Comma*

      If it were a couple of days and it happened here, I think that they would allow her to go into the red for the next year, but what you’re describing is not one or two days.

      We’re union, but I can’t see our union fighting for her either.

    21. wittyrepartee*

      She needs to immediately speak to a union rep about this and ask how to proceed. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

    22. OhBehave*

      We can’t know what your company will do if/when they find out. It smacks of fraud because she’s cheating. I always tracked my own PTO just so I would know for sure what I had. It doesn’t matter that she didn’t know to add to her time sheet. It seems like a common sense thing to do in completing your time sheet. What did she enter for those days?

    23. Sondra Uppenhowzer*

      SIDE QUESTION: what it the most vacation time you’ve taken for one year, and what is the longest vacation you’ve taken at once?
      The most I’ve ever taken in 1 year is 4 weeks, the most at once is 2 weeks.

      1. Inigo Montoya*

        One glorious year I took at least 9 weeks of vacation (possibly more, I can’t remember), in addition to holidays, floating holidays, personal and sick days. I had a bunch of rollover and accrued 5 weeks a year so I needed to use some up.
        I took 8 weeks in the summer – I asked my boss if it was ok and he said sure as long as I came back for a week in between (summer was our dead season). So I took off a month, came back for a week and basically did nothing, then took off another month. Then I took 2 weeks off around Christmas/New Years. Ah the benefits of working somewhere for a really long time!

      2. Nessun*

        I took a month-long vacation in 2015 because I had the chance to go on my dream trip (Japan). I had the time accrued, but I still had to ask my boss for permission to leave for four consecutive weeks. He said yea…but he did let me know when I returned, that he would never agree to that again because he hadn’t realized how much I did, and didn’t feel my backup was quite up to snuff!

      3. Bilateralrope*

        I’m in a country where capping unused PTO, or having it expire, is not allowed. The only way my employer has to control large amounts of unused PTO is to make employees take time off, but the law also says how much must be built up before that can happen.

        So I was made to take 7 weeks off last year. Which was just enough to bring my PTO below the point where I can be made to use it.

      4. German Girl*

        I accure 6 weeks a year and while it does roll over, we’re supposed to use up any rollover within the first quarter, so I usually take between 5 and 7 weeks worth of vacation days within a year.

        I usually take 2 weeks around Christmas, 2-3 weeks for a summer holiday, and the rest is for a long weekend here or there, or in some years another week long trip.

        The longest period was 4 weeks for me.

    24. Green Goose*

      This actually happened to me as well! When I started at my company it was not clearly explained to me that after requesting time off and my boss approving it, there was another step required of me. All my previous jobs just required asking for the day and getting approval. I remember the third or fourth time I had requested sick or PTO my boss came up to me a few days after the fact and told me I needed to enter it in and I was confused. I did for that time but didn’t say/do anything about the other sick/PTO and my boss never followed up about it.

  6. Elenia*

    I’ve had to say a couple of things to my highest performer this week. I gave her her review last week and in it, told her that she had potential to go far in this company, maybe even a leadership role, yadda yadda. Imagine my surprise when she immediately took it as having that role already! She began bossing around her teammates and also began to show a strong streak of negativity.

    I spoke to her about both items and to her credit she immediately responded well, but in my heart I was dismayed. Taking the potential of power and evincing it in such a way makes me feel maybe you are NOT ready for the promotion. And there isn’t even one in the works yet! It was all potential!

    1. Hannah Banana*

      Some people let the thought of leadership get to their head and they start acting superior to others. Might mean she’s not ready for a leadership role or needs some serious coaching! just because you get a promotion doesn’t make you any better than the other people you work with, and that you treat them with less respect.

      1. ACDC*

        This happened to one of my coworkers. We were both promoted to co-team leads (what could go wrong right?), but he missed the “co-” part. He started excluding me from various office things, harassing coworkers, taunting people, approving things he had 0 authority to approve, you get the idea. He was fired about a month after this change because his behavior became so unbelievable.

    2. Myrin*

      That’s a really intriguing situation! It’s like the “she’s gone mad with power” phrasing, only she doesn’t even have any power yet!

    3. Fibchopkin*

      First, I would reexamine your words to word to her. If this behavior was out of character for her, and since she immediately stopped when you called her on it, it sounds an awful lot like you did not make your intentions clear. Just from this little snippet, it sounds like she took your review to mean that you were considering her for potential leadership roles and so she began demonstrating “leadership” to prove to you that you were right, and that she is ready.
      Next, I would begin specifically developing her for a leadership role by teaching her what good managing actually is. A LOT of long-time managers still aren’t good at it and conflate being bossy, nagging or giving negative feedback, and micromanagement with good management, when, of course, it’s not. If this woman is a high performer, but new to her job/young, she likely just doesn’t have the experience and skills yet to properly demonstrate strong, firm leadership vs just being harsh- and that’s okay! She’s already clearly demonstrated her high capacity for performance, for learning, and for responding to direction. Most people aren’t just naturally good at management, you have to teach her how. Enroll her in appropriate professional development courses or programs, if you can, counsel her on this during meetings and reviews, and most importantly, model good leadership and management for her.
      Finally, I may be off base, but your post makes it sound as if you are taking this misstep a little too personally. Like, the tone I’m getting is a teacher disappointed with a favorite student. She’s an adult, and you’re her manager not her mom, school teacher, or even, really, her friend. My advice would be to see this, and your employee, for what it, and she, is – a talented high-performer who id need of some coaching on how to properly manage. She made a mistake, but immediately corrected it when it was pointed out to her. Let go of the dismay “in your heart,” get her some training, and keep your eye on her to see if she continues to develop leadership potential.

      1. Elenia*

        She’ll get better. she just needs time and coaching. I was just surprised because neither are behaviors I have ever seen out of her before!

        1. Misty*

          Some great individual contributors don’t make good managers.

          I’d see this as a flag honestly. Bossing coworkers around? No.

        2. WantonSeedStitch*

          If you can encourage her to start doing some professional development work on leadership skills, that might be helpful! Maybe some classes on communication for leaders and managers, especially.

      2. MD PhD*

        Exactly this.
        She needs coaching on what leadership means. She is trying to show her value as a potential leader by being bossy, probably because that’s the most common leadership style young people come across.

      3. OhBehave*

        I agree that you need to review what you said to her. Don’t gloss over your role here. She was hopped up on praise and potential. The fact that she immediately stopped after you spoke to her is a good thing. Did you outline ways she could improve in order to get a promotion? Does she know a promotion isn’t even a possibility right now? Continue to observe her to make sure what you saw before the review is still happening. If you have weekly 1:1’s, you could use some of that time to hone her leadership skills. Maybe by focusing on what she did wrong previously.

    4. Oh No She Di'int*

      Yep. People hear what they want to hear. No hate. I do it; you do it; everyone does it. Just be glad that she responded so well when you pointed it out to her.

      I recently needed to hire a new manager for an existing team in my business. Having learned from the past, the previous manager and I sat down with each team member and carefully explained what was happening (“You’ll be getting a new manager”), what it meant for them, and what our expectations were. With one employee in particular, I said that I expected him to be open with his knowledge about the project and to help the new manager understand the details once this person was hired.

      He somehow took from that that he was getting a promotion. I have no idea where he got that notion from, especially since I took great pains to make it very clear that nothing about his position would change. I wanted to quash any thought that he should plan a coup d’état during the transition. But even after communicating and then over-communicating, it still took further conversation to let him know that his position had not changed. And I was very surprised that he seemed surprised by that. I’m sure we’ve all been guilty of wanting to believe something so badly that we hold on to the idea in the face of every piece of evidence to the contrary.

    6. Mazzy*

      This is why you should be careful talking about career potential when you yourself say that nothing is open!

      1. Fikly*

        I wouldn’t take one person’s response as evidence for whether or not to have these conversations in the future. If this was a pattern, sure, but it’s just one person.

    7. HM MM*

      I think that if she took your corrections well and fixed her behavior quickly, then I think you should not hold the this against her completely or let it prevent you from considering her for a promotion. Obviously watch and see if there are any other incidents of her overreaching or misinterpreting discussions of potential future plans – if there are any further incidents then I’d start to be concerned.

      Hopefully this is an isolated incident that she would keep in mind if actually promoted (that bossiness and negativity – as in how she behaved in this situation – are not what is needed when moving to a leadership position).

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would keep this flag in mind, since she seems to take things and run with it on her own, which can be great but when it levels up to just bossing around teammates and showing negativity, that’s a huge thing to keep a mental note on.

      She could just need training and coaching, that’s the best case! That she was just overzealous in the moment and can learn and mature. However it can also be a sign that down the road she’ll do it again, even after more exposure and coaching.

      Lots of people will bend to their boss when they correct them like that. However how they treat the people below them is always critical to keep in mind. Oh yay, you get along with the higher positions, duh most people do because they have power over you.

      Watch out for that person being prone to kicking down and kissing up. This sounds cynical of course but the fact she quickly was all “oh oops! I’ll fix myself!” when you corrected her is good but not proof that she isn’t going to be one of those people on a complete powertrip over their “potential” and “rubber stamp” into the leadership group.

  7. Anonanon doo doo doo doo doo*

    You guys.

    Remember that teacher who made a racially-charges statement about one of our black teens?
    Guess whose name I drew for Secret Santa.
    FML.

    What do you think I should get him? A book about implicit bias? Please share your ideas!

    1. Deb Morgan*

      I can personally recommend “So You Want to Talk About Race” by Ijeoma Oluo. I’m not sure how well it would be received, but I thought it was a good read in general.

      1. The Original K.*

        I was going to suggest this! It’s petty but if he actually reads it, he’ll learn something. Or “How to Be An Antiracist” by Ibram X. Kendi.

    2. machinations and palindromes*

      The voice of the better angels in my head says get him the most generic gift possible.

      The voice of my other angels says get him a biography of a prominent African-American figure. Hell, maybe even get him an entire set of biographies.

      1. StellaBella*

        Agree here with these two sides.

        I would write and print out a letter to this teacher and express your concerns as part of the gift – IF a lot of people heard what this teacher said – IF it was only one or two people that heard it, then not a good idea to say anything and just go with generic gift. If you can find some words to point out that racism is disgusting, in a manner that would make them think, reflect, consider their biases, and not blow their top, maybe. But I dunno. Secret Santa seems less like a place for this correction than a timely, in the moment correction when they said what they said.

        However, I do think that you could include a card with a variety of children on it that is about inclusion and love and joy and opportunity for all for a new year ahead that may be subtle and might make them think? No idea if those cards are sold tho. Also I am honestly not sure if this would get thru to someone who is possibly a closed-minded person.

      2. Troutwaxer*

        My favorite Black Historical figure is Josephine Baker, singer, actress, anti-racism activist, and a member of the French Resistance during world war II, who won the Croix de Guerre and was awarded the Legion of Honor.

          1. Anono-me*

            Will you be my secret Santa this year? I have got to get this book. I knew she was most impressive, but I not know that Josephine Baker was also a French resistance fighter in WW2. Thank you for mentioning it.

      1. Lkr209*

        What about a top-seller book that features Black protagonists? Like Hidden Figures? That way you can say, “It was on the top-seller list for x months and I thought it was such a great read”.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          This is what I was thinking about. Since she’s teaching teens, I’ll suggest “Akata Witch” by Nnedi Okorafor, or The Broken Earth by N.K.Jemison. Or go for the classics — Octavia Butler or Samuel Delany.
          If you don’t know her reading tastes but can find out that she’s watched “Good Omens” when it was on TV, a subtle choice would be “Anansi Boys” by Neil Gaiman. He’s a white author who never explicitly says that his main character is black. The key to figuring it out before [spoiler makes it obvious] is that people who walk into the story get described by clothes, hair, mannerisms & posture….except if they’re white. Then skin color gets mentioned. (Yes he did it on purpose, and yes he had people tweet at him angrily about it when they finally figured it out. It was a jawdropping exchange.)

          2. Advice Needed*

            Neil Gaiman is married to a white woman who frequently uses the n word and he exploited African mythology in a way no black author at that time was given the opportunity to do.

          3. Patty Mayonnaise*

            The fact that people thought that character was white… and got very up in arms when they realized he wasn’t… is very shocking to me. I knew the characters were black based on the description on the book jacket! Why on earth would a human incarnation of an African god be white? Sadly if people are missing that, I think Anansi Boys is too subtle as a message to the OP’s coworker.

            1. Patty Mayonnaise*

              Ugh, can’t figure out how to edit my comment, but I realized the fact I mentioned MIGHT have been the spoiler Seeking was talking about! I read the book after it had been out for a while and I remembered it being revealed upfront, but it’s possible it wasn’t. Though “Anansi” in the title is still a very big indication that there are non-white characters in the book.

      1. TechWorker*

        I do wonder whether Secret Santa is is going to make any difference here – like isn’t there a high chance they’ll just get embarrassed and angry/not read the book?

    8. blackcat*

      I like the subtlety of a simply a book by a black author. Plausible deniability! It’s just a good book! Not “you need to think about race more carefully.” I loved Americanah by Adichie.

    9. Blue Eagle*

      A book sounds like a great idea but I would also include a note that says “I enjoyed reading this book and hope you will enjoy it, too.”

    10. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

      Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates or So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo.

      1. Jane of all Trades*

        I second the Ta-Nehisi Coates book – his writing is excellent and I have found it to be very accessible and informative, plus he is well known so you can just gift it and tell him you enjoyed the book and hoped that he would too (rather than the book being an “in your face” message calling him a racist).

    12. ten-four*

      Wait, what about Amazons, Abolitionist and Activists, the brand new graphic novel by Mikki Kendall? You teach teens, it’s for teens! INNOCENT SMILE

    13. wittyrepartee*

      I’d be tempted to get him bath and body works lotion and/or a candle. The gifts that scream to be re-gifted. A little box of disappointment.

    14. fhqwhgads*

      This happened to a teacher friend of mine a few years ago and she totally bought a copy of a book about implicit bias. I forget which one it was now…

    15. Gumby*

      I don’t remember the original story, but obviously agree completely that racially-charged statements have no place in… well, I was going to say the workplace but really the world. But I would counsel against any gift that says blatantly or implies that the recipient needs to be fixed. That’s just rude. Just like you don’t give a WW membership to someone you perceive as overweight, a vacuum to someone whose house seems messy to you, etc. Not that the situations are equivalent, but if it is meant to shame/fix other people then it is NOT a gift.

      Yes, he’s got very problematic views. But there is no need to compound it by giving a hostile gift. Bland is fine. And educating him – outside of a gift-giving situation – is all but mandatory though, perhaps, doesn’t have to be your responsibility specifically. If you just can’t bring yourself to give a neutral or sincere gift, then own up to it and talk to whoever organizes this thing about switching people.

    16. Anononon doo doo doo doo doo*

      Thank you everyone for your great suggestions and your doses of humor. Since his comment was only to just me and the gifts will be opened en masse, I’ll err on the bland side and get something generic. But man, what a great reading list!

  8. DaniCalifornia*

    So super awkward, not even sure I have a question but am open to opinions on how to handle. Details: We have a new hire starting soon, and we have another new hire replacing me. 

    Gave notice recently. It went surprisingly well but I can tell it was a shock. But this job sucks. 150% toxic and work life balance is awful during busy season which is half the year. No new job lined up yet but willing to take that chance for my emotional and mental health. My last day is the day before the company holiday party. The day I gave notice coworker asked in front of supervisor if I was still going to said party. I paused a moment because I didn’t want to assume I could, and I hadn’t discussed with the owner yet. Supervisor jumped in and said “Of course you’re still invited!” and I said I’d love to go if they still wanted me to. It’s usually a good time/fancy/big deal with perks (and often an xmas cash bonus!) 

    Invites have been sent out and I did not get one. Coworker said something and I checked my email and she asked if I got it and I said no. She didn’t see my name on the public invite list either.  I wondered if I should ask owner and felt super awkward so I left it alone bc owner is never in office. Cue to this week and new hire who is replacing me is talking about the party while I’m training them. It comes up again that I didn’t receive an invite. New hire jokes that they’ll bring me as their date. Coworker says I could ask their relative (my supervisor.) So I awkwardly go up there and say “This is super awkward, I know you aren’t hosting party, owner and their SO are, but I didn’t get an invite. It’s totally fine if not, I understand if it’s a numbers game with 2 new hires also attending.” (Basically trying to give them an excuse to use if they needed it.) Supervisor says they noticed I wasn’t on list but has no idea why and they’ll ask. That was a few days ago and I haven’t heard anything.

    I don’t plan on asking again but coworkers keep bringing it up. I can smile and nod along and stay quiet but if I’m honest it kind of stings. The message I’m getting during my notice period is “You’ll be so missed! We are going to sink without you!” which I know are platitudes but also truths said by higher ups who recognize my level coworkers are not up to par but refuse to address it. Thoughts on what to say if I’m asked directly about it? 2nd new hire starts before party too and other coworkers are getting excited about it. 

    2. Mama Bear*

      It seems odd that the new hire is not officially starting until after but is invited. My guess is that they’re trying to be generous to a new employee with whom they expect to have a long-term working relationship. You said the job is toxic, so favoring the new guy may just be par for the course. Since you aren’t officially going to be an employee anymore, I can see why you’re off the list. If coworkers bring it up again, I’d tell them that you’ve accepted that you aren’t invited and you really need them to move on and stop talking to you about it. Sorry about the timing. I’ve been in similar situations and it stings.

      1. TechWorker*

        Tbh this is not weird to me. It’s crappy to be told you’re invited and then.. not be invited… but the actual. bit of ‘an employee who’s had their last day isn’t invited’ + ‘an employee who’s just about to start is’ seems… fine? Like yes it’s just a day which makes it unusual but one would assume in general that post last day you would be included in work socials.. and including people who are just about to join is generally good practice for helping them integrate!

    3. Jimming*

      I would drop it. Do you even want to go? You said it’s a toxic environment and you are leaving for your health. Better to make a clean break. If your trainees mention it again, you can say you have other plans and change the subject.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I had mixed feelings about going. It’s one of those events where even if the busy season sucked it was fun and I think everyone forgot about the stress of work and had fun. Also as mentioned, bonuses for working hard. I’m at the oh well point and shrugging it off. More so I feel like the awkward turtle when people bring it up and I don’t join in. There has now been another conversation (small office <12) today and a coworker was like "Aren't you excited?" I just really don't feel like having 12 separate convos of "Oh I'm not going." and then people asking why.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          Are there certain people you know are likely to be asking you? You could send an e-mail to them all and say, “hey everyone, have fun at the party for me! I didn’t get an invitation, I assume because I’m on my way out and they need the space for our two new hires, but I hope you all have a great time.” That would avoid all the separate conversations and questions.

          1. valentine*

            Since you’re not invited, either you’re not getting a bonus or they will get it to you some other way. You can ask about that because the only thing more awkward than this is not being included when the bonus checks go around.

        2. Bagpuss*

          I would not expect you to get a bonus as you have given notice, and will have left by that point.
          I know you will feel you earned it, but if they pallned on giving you one they can do it in your final pay packet.
          I think you should assume you are not invited, and if anyomne asks just sa that you have bnot ben invited. If any of your coworkers want to comment about it they can do so to your boss or to the owner, you should stay out of it.

        3. Lucette Kensack*

          It sounds like you’ll get confirmation from your supervisor about whether you should plan on attending. But in general, I would assume that you should not plan on attending.

          First: Bonuses are typically given as retention tools; your employer wants not just to recognize your work, but to encourage you to stay in your role. You’ve resigned, so you should not expect to receive a bonus, whether or not you attend the party. (This isn’t always true! I learned recently that my organization pays out pro-rated bonuses to employees that leave midway through the year. So you could leave in April and get a bonus check in September. Weird!) Also, it would be surprising if any bonus were contingent on attending the party. If they’re going to give you a bonus, they’ll give you a bonus, whether or not you attend.

          Second: Your last day is before the party. You won’t work there by the time the party happens. While there are some places that would want you to come anyway, it’s very very reasonable for the employer to restrict the party to current employees (especially when your resignation was voluntary; presumably you picked the date).

          1. DaniCalifornia*

            Yeah my boss would make attending the bonus contingent on the party. He’s done that before. People who were not able to make it did not receive the bonus. Which I thought was unfair but have no control over. A lot of friends/family in larger companies do receive their bonuses even if they leave before end of year if they work at least 1 day + half of a year, or if they work 3 quarters. But mine is a smaller company so I wouldn’t expect that. It seems to come down to the women in my office think I should be going and would have invited me. But the owner (male) is very cut and dry so I assume he’s thinking well her last day was X. Party is after X. I’m trying to reframe my mindset as it’s not personal. But I also know specific reservations for this party and a hotel stay were made in our name/with us in mind. So when supervisor was like “of course!” I guess I got my hopes up. Before then I was not expecting the xmas bonus. It boils down to an office full of people who say “we’re family!” but don’t treat others that way where it counts lol! I guess I hadn’t buried my expectations bar low enough.

            1. MissGirl*

              Honestly, with leaving before the party, I wouldn’t expect an invite. If it had been that important to you, it sounds like you could’ve timed your departure later.

        4. PennyLane*

          Maybe they don’t plan to give you a bonus and that’s why they didn’t invite you- because it’d be awkward if everyone else got one and you didn’t. You may feel entitled to a bonus, and I’m not saying you haven’t earned it, but those are often given as a perk and retention strategy for current employees. If they already know you are leaving, there’s no point.

          I would just let it go and tell people, you weren’t invited since you won’t be working there much longer. I think that would be understandable. Like Jimming said, it’s a toxic workplace so just make a clean break. If you want to enjoy time with the coworkers you like, plan a lunch with them.

    5. Sondra Uppenhowzer*

      At my company, if your last day is before the company party, you are not invited to the party. That is because they have a per employee spending limit and non employees are not invited.
      If your company is inviting non-employees, then maybe they would invite you.

  9. Lagonelle*

    I work full time as llama groomer. I have a side gig as teapot painter, which is better suited to my skills and career interest. In December, one of the biggest teapot painting institute will hold an extensive one day workshop on Friday the 13th. I signed up and paid the fee, which is a significant amount of money for me.

    When I asked my boss’s permission for leave, I was told that on that day, there’s going to be a company-wide team-building session. She signed my permission slip anyway. When I went to my grandboss for his signature, he mentioned that as well, but also signed my slip, although he did seem reluctant to do so. I didn’t tell them I was attending a workshop, just that I wanted that day off.

    It was last week, which means that I gave almost one month notice of my planned leave. I personally feel it was very courteous, since usually people only give notice a week, or two, in advance. And my coworkers were surprised that I gave notice so far in advance.

    I can get a refund, but it won’t be 100% of the fee.

    Should I go anyway, or should I suck it up and go to the team-building? Aside from the fee, I’m also very excited to attend the training and I believe it’ll provide a significant knowledge and networking benefits. Also, HR hasn’t given formal announcement yet.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      You probably should’ve gotten the day off approved before paying the fee, just in case, but too late for that now. But if they signed your leave slip AND the event hasn’t actually been announced yet, I wouldn’t worry about it and go to your training, unless you have reason to think they’ll hold it against you.

    3. Jamie*

      Is there going to be major political fall out from being out that day?

      I’m trying to put aside my bias against team building, but I honestly can’t see where this would be more beneficial for you long term than the workshop unless your employer will hold it against you.

      1. Lagonelle*

        Is there going to be major political fall out from being out that day?

        Honestly, I don’t know. I forgot to give this info for more context: it’s an entry-level position, and I’ve been here for seven months.

        Two months ago my department held our own team-building event. Five other coworkers and I didn’t go, but I haven’t noticed any fall out. Though I admit I’m a bit dense, so it’s possible that I simply don’t notice any difference.

    4. justkiya*

      I’d totally go to the workshop. If it’s COMPANY WIDE – unless your company is under 50 people, you won’t be the only one who isn’t there for one reason or another. And it sounds like the workshop is a rare event, and will be much more beneficial to you in the long run.

        1. Stornry*

          and that’s exactly how I’d frame it if anybody asks why you aren’t going/weren’t there: “I had a prior commitment”.

      2. Pineapple Incident*

        Agreed! They didn’t officially announce the thing, and you have approved leave. Go to your training – I think you’ll be happy you did. I hope you enjoy it and that it’s beneficial to your side gig.

    6. Antilles*

      Personally, I’d go to the training. If the culture in your company is to only provide notice a week or two in advance, then you went above and beyond in providing that much notice. They already agreed to it.
      That said, I’d consider ‘casually’ dropping that you have plans that day to attend a workshop about teapot painting. It’s dumb and ridiculous, but a lot of people would be a lot more understanding of you missing the team-building session to do something productive rather than you missing it to watch TV on your couch.

      1. Spreadsheets and Books*

        I definitely wouldn’t do this. OP says that teapot painting is her side business, which is not the same industry as a her main gig (llama grooming). As someone with a side business, I do all I can not to mention it at work under any circumstances as a lot of employers get the idea that a side business takes away from time spent on work. Mentioning that she’s skipping team building to go to a workshop for her side job would probably get some serious side eye.

        1. Spencer Hastings*

          Slightly OT, just out of curiosity: what if the workshop were for something the employee does as a hobby? Would that change the situation (and in which direction)?

          1. Spreadsheets and Books*

            I think that would make it a little better, because there’s no real pursuit of profit in a hobby, but still not something I’d advertise.

            Loveeee the username, btw!

        2. Clisby*

          I probably wouldn’t mention the workshop, but if I understand the situation correctly, the team-building thing hadn’t even been announced when she signed up. If the employer wants people to clear their calendars for team-building, they should announce the date(s) months in advance.

      2. cmcinnyc*

        I would go to the teapot painting workshop and not mention At All where I was. It isn’t anyone’s business. If someone was rude enough to press, I’d say something vague like, “I had something on my calendar for over a month before the team-building was scheduled and I really couldn’t move it. Oh well. Next year! How was it?”

    7. limpet1*

      I would go to the workshop but i’d mention to boss that the reason you wanted time off was for something you can’t move (like appointment, family reunion – or workshop etc.) They probably mentioned the team building because if you could have had your day off another day instead (like to make a trip) you could have moved it if you wanted.

      1. Lagonelle*

        When my boss told me about the plan, I panicked and blurted out that I already paid for a ticket. I didn’t say a ticket for what, though, so she probably thinks it’s a plane ticket to my hometown.

        1. Pineapple Incident*

          Doesn’t matter honestly. They approved it, regardless of the circumstances you have leave that was approved. If there is fallout, I would ask “then why would you have signed the slip?” if the boss/grandboss have an after-the-fact issue, and I’d honestly hope you could expect them to say that you were approved to have leave well in advance of the activity’s official announcement in your defense if the boss/grandboss hear people talking about it.

        2. Mockingjay*

          If you’re friends with colleagues on social media, be sure not to mention the workshop on it. If asked in work conversations, be vague: “oh, family stuff.”

          I doubt anyone will pry, other than wondering if they can use a similar excuse to skip the teambuilding. (I’m biased; I’ve had horrible experiences with team events that I’ve posted about before.)

        3. OhBehave*

          They may not be thrilled to find out you’re going to a workshop for your other job. You got the day off so I say go and enjoy.

      2. Elle*

        My employees have to email me requesting leave, which I confirm or deny. They then have to go to the department administrator’s office, get their holiday card, fill in the date they want off, and present it to me for signing, then return it to the office. They then have to add the holiday to their own calendar and the team calendar. This whole process room one of my team about 20 minutes on Friday. In addition, I had to check the calendar, to confirm it was ok, and add her leave to my own calendar…

  10. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

    I’m in a combined team lead/design lead role for a product, with 1 junior design engineer under me. There isn’t enough work consistently to justify bringing a more senior person in to be a full-time design lead so I juggle both roles. I’m having an issue with my junior designer lately, and I’m wondering how much of it is because I’m spread too thin to review his work, and how much of it is him being lazy. Recently, we were asked to assess a new configuration and there was some back and forth discussion about the final requirement. We finally locked down the requirement after some iterations, and I asked the designer to update our models accordingly. He said he did and updated a slide deck with a picture – it looked good, but smaller than I expected. Turns out he hadn’t updated his work to the new requirement but instead left it as an old iteration, and tried to pass it off as good enough. After reviewing the emails and my requests to him I verified that I was clear in the new requirement, not that I said the wrong number by mistake. I asked him to fix it before sending it to the next group to analyze, and he asked if it was actually necessary or if we could just give them the old model….? It’s a sensitive feature on a difficult part, and assessing wrong geometry is a waste of time. Also, I’m not going to put my design lead signature on it as “complete” if it’s not. He just sent the latest updates and it very clearly doesn’t fit in the geometry envelope provided, he just didn’t bother to update some spacing as required. This is not the first time he’s tried to cut corners on a request like this, and I’m getting frustrated.

    He’s been at the company for 3 years in similar roles to this ones and went to a well-known university for engineering (I say this because I would think he’d need less oversight, not that I think his degree alone makes him a better engineer than anyone else), so some of these requests should be straight forward. He’s also expressed interest in more re-design and creative tasks like this one, so I want to give him these opportunities for his own development. I’ve also been more focused on the team lead aspect of my job than the design lead that I’ve not been reviewing his work in detail… but I also don’t feel like I should have to hold his hand and explain to him why the work needs to be done right! He’s a nice guy and can do some great work, but there’s been enough issues like this that it gives me pause. I’ve had a number of junior engineers work under me before when I was a full-time design lead on another team, but they were all very thorough so I’m not sure what else is different in this situation.

    We share the same manager, I have no real authority over this person and no other alternatives to assign work to, so that’s why I’m considering going straight to our manager to ask for ideas or feedback (or to intervene if he thinks that’s a good plan). I also recognize that I’m not a patient person and don’t see myself as a great “people manager”, so maybe that’s playing into this? I don’t want to cause issues but I also don’t feel like I can trust this person to always do the job right unless I ask a lot of questions to uncover problems.

    1. Reba*

      Talk with your manager about strategies, but I think you have standing to discuss this! You could say, “I’ve heard you express interest in doing redesign and creative tasks, but when I gave you this recent work for part X you seemed to be trying to get out of doing the redesign! What’s going on there? Was there a problem getting the changes done?” And “we need to take these kind of details seriously, so can you be more thorough in the future?”

      I recently had a chat with an intern (so, different context) but it was basically “I asked for P and you gave me Q, what’s up?” And it ended up being a good conversation about time needed for certain tasks.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        I agree with this! You may end up having a conversation that’s useful in one of a few ways – especially one that yields reasons why attention to these details is lacking, or that gives you information indicating this employee should be on a PIP of some kind.

    2. Legally a Vacuum*

      As an in-house patent attorney that works with engineers, I’d be really worried if an engineering team lead told me this was going on. There are plenty of times when I need exact dimensions/geometry, and I’m not actually *doing* anything physically with the design.

      It doesn’t matter whether you’re patient or not. You gave him a very clear instruction and he pushed back without any real reason other than he didn’t want to do the work.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      You need a double prong approach. By all means give your manager a heads up. As jr engineer lead, you have authority to address the technical issues. And there are many!

      You should ask what is going on, for sure. But here’s the issues I’m seeing from the letter:

      • Claiming work was complete when it wasn’t. This is a HUGE MONDO WORLD STOPPING issue. Lying is not OK. You don’t do that! What if you had a critical delivery and he lied about tests etc? I’ve actually caught a jr engineer concatenating test results to make it look like they ran tests (when they didn’t). It caused us to be late on a delivery. Lying about deliverables is a HUGE breach. I’m talking PIP level. You can’t trust his work any more!!

      • pushing back on if you need something. Its OK to question as long as it isn’t happening all.the.time. If it is challenging then you have an authority issue. Jr may think he knows more than he does (Dunning Kruger).

      • Making technical decisions without including stakeholders. Jr decided what was “good enough” without including the other stakeholders for review. Even senior engineers don’t get to do that! His decision shows a level of cluelessness that proves he isn’t ready for Sr roles.

      • Cutting corners to the point of being wrong. This is a basic lack of engineering discipline that delineates good engineers from bad ones. It goes back to trust again – you can’t trust him to do his job right and that’s a performance issue. His quality is bad.

      I suspect that he will argue with these assessments because he is Dunning Kruger. I’m willing to bet he thinks his work is just fine. You should go down each issue point by point just to be fair.

      The important thing here is that these “little” annoyances are not little at all. You can’t trust him. You can’t trust him to do the MINIMUM quality work needed for the job! He doesn’t deserve a bigger role because he isn’t even getting the basics right.

      On the issue of university – many can slide through university without “getting it”. Some smaller universities are better at lab work, while bigger ones are only theoretical. There’s overlap but not direct correlation to quality and success. My peers were from Stanford, MIT, and CalTech. I was from a state school and worked beside them. Some peers were brilliant, and others were only book smart. The school is only as good as the person attending it.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        Also what the patent attorney says. He can’t discern that geometry is important. That means he doesn’t have enough ability to discern critical and non critical issues.

        The guy is a bad engineer.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I asked him to fix it before sending it to the next group to analyze, and he asked if it was actually necessary or if we could just give them the old model….?

      This a huge red flag to me about JuniorEngineer. Since you said that cutting corners like this is a pattern, I would bring this to your shared manager immediately. Essentially, JuniorEngineer is saying, “Do I really need to do my job? ’cause I’ll get paid and promoted either way, right?”

      JuniorEngineer sounds like an example of a young professional (of any generation) who thinks that they’re too good to do grunt work and should be promoted to do more interesting projects (e.g. re-design, creative tasks) without proving they can do work well.

    5. Donna*

      I think you should talk to the designer and ask point blank, why isn’t he making the changes you guys agreed on. I’m thinking he is just being lazy since he has 3 years experience, he should know how to take directions by now. But see what the kid says, maybe he misunderstood. After that, I think you are going to have to actually review the work before you allow him to send it out to others. You probably don’t have the time, but I would try to find some time if I were you, because you are the lead, so if something goes wrong it will be on you. If you really dont have the time, I would talk to your manager to see if maybe she can help, or at least get the kid to shape up.

      1. Donna*

        There was suppose to be a (doubt it) after the misunderstood.

        Also, similar to Engineer Girl above, I agree that lying about completing work that isnt completed is huge, and you should mention that to manager ASAP if you havent already.

        1. Engineer Girl*

          It’s not just about integrity. It’s about technical integrity, which is a core value of engineering. Without it, you have nothing.

    6. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

      I just tried employing some of these discussions with him this afternoon. I asked him to combine all of the changes on one product into one single, editable CAD model since they’re right now saved in a bunch of different one-off models (Not my preference but I’m trying not to micromanage how he tracks his work, especially early in a concept). He said he would produce a solid dummy model to send over, and I told him no, they need an editable model so the follow-on team can make minor tweaks themselves rather than iterating with us needlessly. And also, dummy models are fine for really rough, quick assessments but not good practice for this phase of the project. I asked why he wanted to send a dummy model and his response was “but they can just take my 3 models and create their own single model easily.”

      2. Engineer Girl*

        He’s basically saying he wants to publish an incomplete deliverable as the final product. Does he not know how reputation destroying that is?

      4. Easily Amused*

        I hope your response to this was “I am asking you to do it. Is there a reason why you cannot or will not do it?”

  11. JoAnna*

    I’m starting a new job on Monday, after not working for nearly two years.

    [Some background: I was laid off from my job of eight years in April 2017, and laid off again from my new job in February 2018. That layoff coincided with my husband getting a new job with a much better salary, so I took a break from the workforce for a while. During that time I wrote and published a book (traditional publisher), and I started job searching again last month. We have six kids and things are expensive! I wasn’t expecting to find something this fast, but I did!]

    Anyway, what is your best advice for starting a new job off on the right foot? This is a slight step up career-wise, so I really want to succeed.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Do a lot of listening and observing the first few weeks especially. Take notes. Ask questions. I’m sure you’ll do great.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes! Hold off on the suggestions for improvement. There’s usually a reason for why they do things the way they do. Learn this reason before even thinking about suggesting another way to do things. IN fact, learn, learn, learn, all you can about how they want you to do things.

    2. Data Nerd*

      Congratulations on your new role! Same as any other job, just listen and observe your first few weeks, be warm and cordial to everyone, you’ll figure it out.

    3. Legally a Vacuum*

      Carry a notebook and date the pages of the notes so you can easily refer back to previous questions.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Be observant and engaged during training. Take notes of your ideas if they come up but don’t bring them up until you’re settled into the position to see if they’re still an “issue” that you notice down the road. Sometimes things will look out of place or weird or unnecessary…until you’ve done it a few times and then you go “That makes sense!”

      So reserve judgement until when you’ve established yourself in a few months or even more, depending on the role.

      The more you can roll with it and survey the place, the better.

    5. Ashley*

      Pack a lunch for your first day knowing you may not eat it for lunch.
      Be pleasant, open, but don’t over share every life detail. Give people time to get to know you.

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      Congrats on your new role!
      I always ask a lot of questions to understand why they do things they way they do them. Observe office culture/norms as much as possible. Avoid the work drama/gossip so as not to influence you early on.

    7. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      First off, CONGRATULATIONS JoAnna!

      For at least your first few weeks and months, with regard to any ongoing office disagreements, alliances, etc., you should be neutral. Red flag with white cross, secret bank accounts and fine watches neutral.

      Going in, you don’t know the history, you don’t know why people did what they did and you sure as heck don’t know who’s friends with — not to mention protégés of — whom.

      And if someone — whose job does not include welcoming newcomers — wants to take you under their wing right away, watch out! That’s a common tactic of the disaffected, trying to recruit newcomers before said newcomers can get the other side of the story/find a much better horse to back.

      Good luck!

  12. Sick Days*

    I’m really angry and nervous about how things are shaking out with my department reorganization. Please give me a sanity check.

    This year my department had multiple C-level promotions, hirings, and consolidations. My tiny sub-group tends to get traded around frequently because nobody knows how to classify us—our work straddles engineering, R&D, and IT.

    In the spring, the VP of HR sent out a mass e-mail (which was basically internal PR) about how the company listens to our needs and is rolling out some changes to become more flexible. In other words, they realized that this place is run by a bunch of dinosaurs, and “two weeks vacation” and “remote work is the devil” aren’t going to fly anymore if they want to hire anyone decent. Part of that e-mail was an explanation that sick days would now be clumped, meaning that one bout of illness would now be considered one sick day instead of each business day being counted separately.

    After the reorg, my sub-group started reporting to a different grandboss. My old grandboss is an easygoing guy who rolls with the punches. My new grandboss is a Good Old Boy, who thinks the whippings should continue until morale improves.

    I learned a few months later that the whole “sick day overhaul” thing is actually just a suggestion, and managers have full discretion to interpret the ridiculously vague company handbook however they like. My new grandboss is refusing to adhere to this sick day “clumping” directive, and we only get THREE sick days per year before there’s an issue. Four sick days gets you a verbal warning, five days gets you a written warning, and six “could lead to termination”.

    I already used four sick days this year, but apparently I was shown lenience because he only became my grandboss partway through the year. I have had to use over a week’s worth of PTO for illness, doctor appointments, and medical procedures since the reorganization. That’s almost half of what I get for the year. I’ve stayed at this company due to my direct boss being an amazing unicorn, but that no longer seems like a good enough reason.

    For context: I’m a 40-something SME with a master’s in STEM, and I get 3 sick days and 15 PTO days after 7 years of working here. This is wack, right?

      1. Mama Bear*

        If you have ongoing medical concerns and a large enough company, could you ask for non-consecutive FMLA? With their metric of 3 days of sick leave per year, one bad flu can wipe you out. People are dropping like flies around here with some sort of plague that’s lasting average a week. Can you talk to HR about getting your department to be on the same page as the others re: this clumping?

    2. Antilles*

      Completely wack. I am also in STEM with a Master’s and I got 10 days PTO, 1 ‘holiday’, and 5 sick days when I was so green that my formal diploma hadn’t even been printed yet (not an exaggeration). I don’t think I’ve encountered a single company in my engineering industry that doesn’t start with around 15 total days off (either generic PTO or divvied up to sick/vacation buckets) even for the newest of the newbies.
      Also: I have had to use over a week’s worth of PTO for illness, doctor appointments, and medical procedures since the reorganization.
      Are we talking full-day doctor’s appointments? Because if we’re talking about like just a couple hours or so, that is wack if you’re expected to burn PTO for them. You probably don’t work exactly 9:00 AM to exactly 5:00 PM every day, so that flexibility on your part should be rewarded with some flexibility on their part.

      1. Sick Days*

        We can take half days, so I’ve had to use either 4-hour or 8-hour increments depending on the timing of the appointment. Unfortunately, I’ve needed to see multiple specialists who don’t offer early/late hours.

        Regarding your “starting with 15 days” stat, I started with nothing at all because I was temp-to-hire. I got no sick or PTO until I was converted to a permanent employee 2 years in, and then I got 10 days. I got bumped up to 15 days at year 5.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I don’t know if this applies to you, but one job I applied to had a pretty low PTO, something like 15 days with 2 personal floating holidays. The HR rep stressed that if you worked any part of a day and had to leave due to becoming ill, even within an hour of showing up, that did not count as PTO and it would be a normally paid day. I took that to mean that if you showed up at all, even knowing you were sick already, that was the ‘out’ so that you weren’t burning up PTO and that was confirmed by a colleague who worked there. It sucks to resort to dragging yourself to work while sick just to leave and not count it vs getting a usable amount of PTO, but I wonder if that’s a (short term) option for you especially on appointment days.

          I’d be pretty outraged over the fact that using a normal amount of sick leave (1 day every two months!) would result in write-ups or termination. If your boss is the only thing keeping you there, that’s not good enough if sick leave is going to be a factor in your life.

      1. ThatGirl*

        It’s not low in my experience. My first few jobs had 10 total. No separate sick time. My last job had 18 PTO days, no separate sick time, and I was happy with it. This job I have 15 vacation days and 5 sick days.

        1. ...*

          Yeah agree. I’ve only had two jobs offering it and my first went from none to 10 days combined and now I have 15 days combined, and 3 paid holidays, 3 working holidays where I receive a comp day if it is either my regular day off or if I work the holiday (so basically get a comp day no matter what). That totals 21 days, which I consider good but not great. Apparently people are getting 25 days plus paid holidays? Not in my neck of the woods haha.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Get out, this office is full of bees.

      And if not bees, it’s at least full of bad leave policies.

    5. Quill*

      That’s whack. I got more PTO (sick and vacation were rolled together) at my first non-contract job: 12 days a year.

    6. WellRed*

      “I get 3 sick days and 15 PTO days after 7 years of working here. This is wack, right?”

      Yep. They can do all the fancy footwork they want, but offering 3 PTO days is gonna be an issue if they want to make quality hires.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is indeed outdated nonsense. I’m quickly becoming cantankerous now that we have state mandated paid sick leave. Government rules are so baseline and 3 days a year is below their requirements. Y-U-C-K.

      I would start looking elsewhere honestly. New management is easily one of the biggest reasons to start looking in the end, despite the company being in decent standing and being good prior to that change.

    8. Donna*

      Totally wack!!!! I know people starting out of college that get 18 days, with no master’s and less than two minutes of experience.
      I would leave. the new grandboss sucks, and even though your direct boss is awesome, i think you can be treated better at a different company. Heck, just look for a company where your boss and grandboss are half decent and you can take more that 6 sicks days w/o being threaten with termination.

    9. DaniCalifornia*

      Oof yes that is wack. Especially with your career history. For ref, my spouse has a masters in engineering and has worked for his company 8 years. He earned his masters while working there (they paid for it!) and he started off 8 years ago with 3 weeks PTO and sick time. He now earns approx 5.5 weeks PTO and unless he’s sick for an entire week doesn’t use PTO. He’ll either work his flex hours so he can sleep in more, or work from home. They also offer unofficial comp days when they’ve worked OT but don’t get paid since they’re salary.

      Is it possible to start looking elsewhere? How big is your company, I know smaller ones tend to sometimes have less PTO.

    10. BRR*

      It’s wack. I don’ think things will change but can you talk with HR about your grandboss refusing to follow company policy? Approach HR as a group?

    11. emmelemm*

      As others have said, this is pretty bad. If you’ve worked there for 7 years, maybe it’s time to move on. Sooner said than done, but at least look around.

    12. is it nearly time to go home?*

      totally whack. My small engineering company offers 20 days holiday + 5 days sick for every employee, full stop.

  13. Roz Doyle*

    Hi all, I’d really like your advice about a follow-up note after a phone interview. I had a phone interview a few weeks ago. They emailed me this week, letting me know that I was not invited to an in-person interview, it was generic rejection email. I want to ask them for feedback, I have that note crafted already (with the help of this askamanager post: https://www.askamanager.org/2007/08/asking-for-feedback-after-job-rejection.html ), but I don’t know who to send it to. I have the email address for Brian, the manager that interviewed me who, if I got the job, I would have worked for. My friend John, who knows Brian, connected us before I even applied for the job. I had an informal email exchange and then phonecall with Brian. Afterwards, I applied for the job and got the phone interview about a month later. The phone interview was set up by an HR person, Kathy, so I have Kathy’s email. The interview was conducted by Brian and Lisa (from HR). The ‘rejection’ email came from a generic email address, not connected to the organization I was interviewing with, but the email signature was Lisa’s.

    So who do I email asking for follow-up? Brian or Kathy? If I email Kathy, then I’ll have to ask her to convey my message to Brian and Lisa.

    I also want to add, that when Kathy sent me the email setting up the phone interview, it had a line stating that “all communications are centralized through HR. Interview panel members will not be in contact with you and we request that you please do not contact them directly.” But in my mind, that was to prevent questions ahead of the phone interview..right?

    Any advice anyone can offer, would be greatly appreciated. I haven’t looked for work in 7 years, so I am a little ‘green’. I also know that they may not give me any feedback, but I at least want to try.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      noooo. If they say “do not contact them directly,” they mean “do not contact them directly.” Not ” do not contact them directly unless you think you should.” When they’ve specifically told you not to contact anyone but HR, I would not count on getting actionable feedback, and trying to go around them is just going to make you look really bad.

      1. Fikly*

        Yeah, this. Nothing drives a lot of people nuts faster than people who see a rule and then decide it’s ok to break it based on some reason why it doesn’t apply to them, when there were no exceptions given. You’ll burn a bridge.

        Also, if the phone interview was a few weeks ago, they most likely do not remember details well enough to give any useful feedback, sorry. They have moved on.

    3. Natalie*

      TBH I would just drop it entirely. It’s not common IME to get any actionable feedback from a long in-person interview, I have to imagine the chances are even less so for a phone screen. There’s just nothing left here to do except move on.

        1. Natalie*

          Same, and even then it’s been stuff like “they were leaning towards more experience in X /Y/Z”, which I can’t do much with anyway!

    4. Lalaith*

      OK, it’s not going to *hurt* you to ask for feedback, so if you’ve already written your note go ahead and send it. I think since you already had a connection to Brian through your friend, you could ask him. But if you want to follow the letter of the HR law, send it to Kathy.

  14. Mimmy*

    I posted this last week but it was very late in the weekend, so I’m reposting today with some revisions to clarify a few things.

    I’m in the final month or so at an awesome internship in a postsecondary disability services office. The quandary I have is how to describe it on my resume. It wasn’t part of an official degree program and it isn’t paid (quick backstory: it fell into my lap after I’d reached out for networking on a professional listserv). I’m including the resume as part of an application to a Masters degree related to this field and am hoping to have it all submitted this week.

    Honestly, I have not done a whole lot of hands-on work; most of my time has been spent observing as my supervisor responds to emails and conducts student intakes (when permitted by the student). Also, I sat in on weekly case conferences (usually via Skype but occasionally in person) in which all of the coordinators throughout the university present new accommodation requests for approval. As the semester went on, my supervisor has started to let me do a bit more hands-on: I co-conducted one intake and presented a few of her cases at the conferences. Unfortunately, I had to drop the case conferences as of November due to my regular job :( They were wonderful learning experiences.

    My main focus right now is a major project that, if I finish on time, will be of great benefit to the faculty and staff of our part of the university.

    I don’t think I’ve accomplished as much as I would’ve liked because my supervisor is a one-person office and she’s had some health issues which impacted her availability. The numbers I’d give, e.g. presented x cases are in the single digits, so it’s just not impressive. I suppose I could instead describe this in terms of professionalism. I really have learned a lot and still have December to learn even more.

    1. Mimmy*

      Ohhh there was one thing I did: My supervisor did “tabling” at various locations throughout the campus. She wanted to do a “spin the wheel” activity where you answer questions based on the category you landed on. They were all disability awareness questions: I wrote said questions. Many people loved the activity. It was rough on my voice but I really enjoyed doing it.

      1. Friyay*

        I work with a lot of students who spend extensive time shadowing and aren’t sure how to put this on a resume if they haven’t “done things”. We did a resume workshop and talked about using verbs like “learned” “shadowed” “observed” “attended” etc. so that it’s not over exaggerating the extent of your involvement, but you’re still demonstrating that you are familiar with these things and have seen them happen:
        -Shadowed Dr. Ram in the operating room, at his office hours and doing rounds on hospital floors
        -Listened to patients’ heartbeats, gastrointestinal sounds, and checked vitals
        -Learned common sterility procedures, how to scrub into cases, and how to read radiographic images in the Operating Room
        -Observed a Nissen Procedure, hernia repairs, a cholecystectomy, mastectomies, nephrectomies, and multiple laparascopic surgeries

      2. Pamela Adams*

        “Developed new outreach activity, to increase interest in program. Researched, wrote questions for spin the wheel quiz”(or whatever the standard terminology is). If you ran the exercise or can quantify results, add that, particularly if it increased participation from previous years.

    2. Lepidoptera*

      Ask your bosses/coworkers how they would describe your role if asked for reference, that will give you ideas for a label.
      Your description of your time sounds like the basis for the points on your resume and I would definitely recommend saying how you helped with that outreach activity your boss was doing (spin wheel).

  15. Emmie*

    My company hired a new Vice President. There is a lot of overlap in our positions. I was promoted after the VP was hired. I am still fearful that my position could eventually be eliminated.

    Have you ever had overlap in your position with a higher level manager’s role? How did you handle it? Any suggestions for me?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I bet the overlapping roles will shake out into your role or their role. Just give it some time. Once the VP is up and running they may want to completely take over the responsibility or wholly give it to you. The VP will need to see how things run day to day before the decision can be made. I’d just make it clear that you will support whatever decision is made.

    2. Personal Best In Consecutive Days Lived*

      Could it be possible that there’s a lot of work in those overlapping areas that need two people to get it all done? Or the work would benefit from you both collaborating? Or that you will focus on different areas like planning/implementation?
      If you’re really worried about your current position being eliminated, are there any needs in other departments that you could fill by laterally transferring if this happened? If you don’t see anywhere you could move to you could start a quiet job search, just in case.
      Best of luck, I know this would be stressful.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In addition to the great thoughts above, I could also see this shaking out as you becoming an unofficial deputy to the VP.

      Have you had a conversation with the VP and/or your manager? That might also be a good place to start.

  16. Lieutenant Jingles*

    I am starting a new job next Monday and I am kinda excited and scared at the same time.
    I have to ask though, is it wrong to go at it with the mentality “if you train me, I will learn and do the job.”? I once joined a new company, had nobody train me, so I was clueless for months till I quit out if anxiety. I just wonder if company expect you to already be 100% on everything by the time you join them.

    1. A Tired Queer*

      Any company worth their salt will train new hires to perform the tasks of the job. Very likely, they hired you because they saw in you the potential to learn to perform well!
      And if it ends up being the case like you had before, where no one trained you? Well, that’s useful data about whether or not it’s worth it to stay.
      Go forth and learn a new job! I hope it’s excellent :)

    2. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I think it’s best to get a feel for what kind of training you will receive before you start pushing any particular perspective. At my last job, I was my manager’s first direct hire and, to be frank, he did an awful job training me. I got drips and drabs here and there rather than anything useful and comprehensive, so it took me well over a year to get even a reasonable grasp on the day to day tasks. At my current job, training has been far superior and I was handling more in the first four weeks than in the first four months at my last job. It can vary greatly from one company to another.

      If it looks like you’re not going to get the training you need off the bat, that’s the time to start speaking up. Ask any question that comes to mind, including more holistic questions about processes. Ask to sit with your direct manager while she does higher level work, as for feedback on everything… if you’re not getting the training you need again, it needs to be up to you to push to make sure you do.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Not everything, but a lot of them do want people who can do things right out of the gate. For example, if they’re hiring you to create widgets, you should already know generally how to do that, but they can train you to polish them. They wouldn’t have hired you if they didn’t think you could do the job.

      Don’t be afraid to ask questions! Note the answers so you don’t have to ask again. I take tons of notes when I’m getting oriented, and I usually let the people who are guiding me know that. And remember, at first, it will seem a little confusing because you don’t know basics like where stuff is, who does what, etc. A good company will know that.

    4. UShoe*

      I want to caveat this before I start by saying that you shouldn’t just be plopped at a desk and expected to figure everything out, there should absolutely be an induction process at any organisation.

      However, how much ‘training’ is given varies a lot by role and by organisation. If this is a role you should have the skills to do according to your resume and interview I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a bit of induction, getting know co-workers and structure and the business, and then some jobs and meetings to get on with. The expectation can be that you’ll use your existing knowledge or read through similar tasks others have completed to inform how you perform your tasks, and if you don’t know where to find what you need or where to start that you’ll ask.

      Many companies, especially SMEs and start-ups are looking for ‘self starters’. People that can get either to the point that they know what they don’t know and ask, or who figure it out themselves are invaluable in terms of workflow.

      Of course if there’s specific systems you need to use or processes that need to be followed that should absolutely be spelled out, but it might be helpsheets rather than one-on-one training.

      1. LKW*

        Was thinking the same thing. If you tell me you have been working in an office environment for 5 years, I’m going to assume you have Excel skills and I don’t have to train you. But, if my office requires you to use the Llama Grooming Scheduler excel macro, I’m going to make sure you’re trained on how to use it and have written instructions to reference.

        I’d also expect you’d need training on the “how we do things here” stuff, like setting up meetings and managing deliverables and stuff.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. I wasn’t given any training for my current job and that’s because I was basically hired to write and edit content, something I was already doing in my last position. I also came in and basically shaped the role to my strengths and my likes, so no one needed to show me how to do anything but how to navigate in their internal CRMs.

    5. Autumnheart*

      I advocate a middle ground, where you would ideally speak up when you have questions to get the information you need, and not fall into a pattern of learned helplessness where the road begins and ends at “they didn’t train me, so I don’t know.”

      Some companies or teams can be weird about a new hire asking loads of questions, but by the same token, going with your best assumption in the lack of real information also doesn’t win friends and influence people. Ask when you need help.

  17. Grad Student*

    Hello, Does anyone have any insight or good resources on the Thailand restaurant industry? I’m working on a a grad school project, topic assigned, about expanding a U.S. casual dining restaurant focused on burgers into Thailand. I’m looking for good industry groups to potentially interview down to reactions of people who live there. Thanks!

    1. A business librarian*

      You should consider talking to a librarian at your school if you haven’t already. I’m a business librarian at a university and this is exactly the kind of thing we can help with.

      1. Another business librarian*

        Seconded! If you’re not sure who your business librarian is, check out the “Find a Subject Specialist” or “Find Your Librarian” type page on your university’s library website. Or send a message to the reference desk.

  18. DC*

    Just a reminder that everything is going to be okay! I can use this repeated, and I think everyone can sometimes.

    If you’re in a situation that seems overwhelming, figure out one SMALL next step.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Thanks for this.

      I literally started this week off by setting myself a reminder for a daily “let the chips fall [as they may]” at 7:15AM every morning, my version of “it’ll be alright if you don’t worry about it so much or meddle” – it already makes me happy when I hear my phone ping and know what it is, on day 5.

    2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Thanks, I need to hear this more. My current job is ending in a month and it’s taking forever to find out if I got the internal job I applied for. This is agony.

    3. Freaked Out*

      I really need this right now. I just discovered that a manager I work with is a confirmed racist towards people of my race, and I don’t know what to do other than quit.

      1. LKW*

        that blows. Have you had any encounters with this person? Does this explain any nonsensical behaviors you’ve experienced? If so, have you considered going to HR?

        1. Freaked Out*

          One fight that made things extremely chilly for my sister and me from then out, and my sister wasn’t even involved!

          It explains a lot, but my sister and I are documenting anything that pops out at us.

    4. Tesla = lowest pixels (meme of the week)*

      Yes. Thanks for the reminder! It’s hard to see things when dealing with a lot but we do get through it.

  19. Ali G*

    You guys I am irrationally angry at the new tenants who moved onto our floor. This building is being refreshed top to bottom and we had one of the first suites on this floor when it was done. Now some new folks moved into their space and there are so many of them! They are everywhere! In the bathroom, in the hall on their phones, etc. The bathroom gets dirty now (note they are not slobs, just people that need to use restrooms on a regular basis), and yesterday one of the stalls ran out of toilet paper. We’ve had this floor mostly to ourselves and apparently I am not good at sharing. I know this is my problem – honeymoon is over I guess!

    1. Jamie*

      No advice but as someone else not good at sharing you have all my sympathy. I like some people as individuals, but a mass of them anywhere is nothing but annoying.

    3. Mama Bear*

      Does your company have a liaison with the building management? If so, I would reach out to that person and ask that they convey things like more toilet paper or more frequent cleaning to the building’s maintenance team. We have a person who is great at asking for things from the landlord and the landlord sometimes comes back with a blanket statement to remind folks about building regulations. That said I’m *still* curious about the backstory on the notice about not keeping “any animal or bird” on the premises.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, when we moved into our new office we quadrupled the number of people using the women’s bathroom (our office is 90% women) and our office manager had to point this out (multiple times) to the building management because they were used to only having to restock the bathroom on that floor a couple times a week and now they needed to at least check it every day. They’ve mostly got it handled now but it took a while for the right person on the cleaning staff to start putting daily checks on the schedule.

    4. Natalie*

      WRT to the bathrooms, let your property management know if you haven’t already. As the building gets busier they might add a day cleaner, who can stock and tidy restrooms during business hours. But they might not realize they need it unless tenants speak up!

    5. Dust Bunny*

      Second talking to building management. We had a call center move into another suite in our complex and they swamped the parking lot. We had to get our landlords to designate some reserved spaces for other businesses so our own clients could get in. The people weren’t an issue, there were just so many of them!

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I can sympathize. My department was the first to occupy a multistory building on campus while they were renovating the other floors. For almost 2 years we had the whole building to ourselves, and then the other floors were occupied and now Other People are using our elevators… so now they stop on other floors and are slower to respond!!! just kidding…it’s minor but it did sort of take me by “surprise” for a while when the elevator would stop on not-my-floor.

    7. Roz Doyle*

      I so get this. It would bug the hell out of me too. It’s not the exact same thing, but, our cafeteria right at noon also has TOO MANY people, so many that it’s hard to find a free table or eat in peace and it’s also friggin loud. So I now eat my lunch later to have more space and peace and quiet.

    8. ...*

      :/ Yeah none of its really their fault though….Maybe they will start bringing in good coffee and donuts!? One can dream….

  20. Grad Student*

    Also, does anyone know of a free survey site that doesn’t plague survey takers with ads? It’s for the aforementioned project. My work let our survey monkey account expire so I’m hoping there is a free, good option. Thanks!

      1. Ama*

        We used Google forms until my office decided to pay for Survey Monkey and it worked really well for us — my advice is, if your work email does not already run through gmail, set up a gmail account specific to your department (I shared the log in with my admin) and run your forms through there so if you leave that job it is easy for a coworker to take over that account.

        The only thing you have to worry about with Google forms is to check the setting options — there is one type of log in that will require participants to have a gmail account but you can turn that off easily as long as you know to look for it.

    2. Nanc*

      If you have Office 365 the Microsoft Forms has a survey option. It notifies you when you have a new submission and you can export the date to Excel and analyze to your heart’s content!

    3. limpet1*

      I’ve used typeform in the past – guessing it’s free up to a number of subscribers, it’s a lovely user experience too!

    5. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      My lab has used SurveyPlanet for things like client surveys, and we definitely have clients that would complain if they were inundated with ads.
      The free version lets you do quite a bit.

  21. No Diagnosing Others Sigh*

    It’s pretty clear to me that my grandboss has terrible ADHD. She will break off mid-sentence during an important announcement and get distracted by something like a chair out of place, then her lunch plans, then seem confused why nobody else can follow the trail of her conversation. She frequently laments that she has trouble concentrating long enough anything done (and I can verify that this is true – my boss carries almost everything for her). Everything she has to do gets done at the last possible second once the panic kicks in and lets her focus.

    There is really no way for me to bring up ADHD with her, ask her if she’s been evaluated, or suggest she do that (and pursue treatment) – right? We’re polite-colleagues close, but not friends-close, and I worry it would come across as me criticizing her, uh, work habits. I’ve thought of trying to bring it up in a “friend story” type way but it still seems kind of risky.

    1. Jamie*

      There is absolutely no way to do that politely or professionally. And I say that as a professional with ADHD (albeit mine manifests differently.)

    2. Mama Bear*

      I don’t think you can bring up any kind of diagnosis with your grandboss without them being possibly offended. And since she is your grandboss, have you discussed any of this with your direct boss? Your direct boss may be the better one to remind the grandboss where the conversation derailed, for example. Maybe this is a case where your team has to scaffold her. Keep her apprised of projects with short lists and easy bullets. Bring up concerns well in advance and perhaps implement a team tracking mechanism (Trello, or another Kanban board). Keep all the relevant data in the same email thread so she can reference it if she forgets. Etc.

    3. Quill*

      Diagnosis, no, coping mechanisms if you find ones that you can reasonably put forward, yes.

      Example “Hey, I noticed the Teapot metric reports were confusing, so I highlighted the key findings for you!” (In the hopes that she will find the condensed version more readable and maybe start requesting that…)

      Or, the time honored tradition of disorganized family members, moving the perceived deadline up! (Thanksgiving dinner will be at 3:30 PM. It’s at 2 PM if you’re Aunt Distracted.)

      Some things will be more useful or useable than others in your position.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        It reminds me of me when I was working in a job with tons of work, constant interruptions, and not enough staff.

        When you are expected to notice, remember, and do everything, and you are not given time to focus on getting things done, you end up running around like Princess Carolyn in Bojack Horseman trying to do everything at once.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Yep. Just because the outsider-observable symptoms look like one thing is not indicative of much. The no-diagnosing rule (both here and in society in general) exists for a very good reason.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      Nope, not your place, not the right situation. Also unless you are a trained professional those habits you discuss could be other things and not ADHD. Distraction, trouble concentrating, last minute things are not solely traits of ADHD.

  22. in the file room*

    A fun question: what’s the biggest physical mess you’ve encountered at work?

    I work in records management, and when I started my current job, I discovered that my predecessor just… hadn’t processed like 6 months of paper records. Instead they were all stacked in an empty cubicle – filling the space under the desk, covering the floor and desktop to a depth of two to three feet, and spilling into the hall!! It took me a full month to sort them all out.

    1. Jamie*

      100 years ago on a temp assignment I walked into an office where the CEO was clearly a hoarder. Stacks and stacks of folders and magazines and old newspapers covered the floors, chairs, and every flat surface. You had to step around things and be super careful when you walked not to knock them over…was like a maze. It’s the only temp assignment where I got any negative feedback because apparently knowing how to water plants is something I was supposed to know how to do.

      [When told to water the plants I took the watering can and watered all the plants until the dirt was wet, not leaking. Apparently different plants need different amounts of water and they don’t all get it every day and I didn’t know their individual liquid diets. They still offered me a permanent position but no way.]

      1. AndersonDarling*

        That reminded me of a salesperson I used to work with! We were moving offices and were supposed to have our personal workstations packed up for the movers and he hadn’t done anything. He had a narrow and long office and it was STACKED with files, newspapers, and random junk. We were horrified. A senior salesperson took charge and told people to throw it all into boxes so the whole floor was walking in with a box, grabbing a glob of it, dropping it into the box, then stacking the box outside. The salesperson came in over the weekend to unload it and find the right stacks for it to go back to…in the new location.
        So many boxes…

      2. Llellayena*

        Setting the scene: My first day of work at my first (non-summer) office job. I’m wearing standard business casual clothing with heeled boots and a blazer.

        My first task: Retrieve several (paper) files and drawings from the archives material for a legal meeting.

        Location: Off-site rented self-storage container with about 20 years worth of file boxes and rolls of drawings (architecture).

        Unfortunately, no one had really maintained the files. There had been some attempt to stack boxes and such to maintain aisles, but at some point gravity had taken over. There were no aisles. So here I am in heeled boots and a blazer mountain climbing over toppled cardboard boxes with 20 years of cobwebs and dust to find the one box from 10 years ago for a meeting.

        The next 6 months or so, my task was to reorganize their archived files…

    2. MousePrincess*

      I worked at a historic house museum. Fun fact about historic house museums – out of sight, maybe just behind the corner the public can’t quite see around, is a pile of crap, or collections items, or both.

    3. Catsaber*

      Probably the office area I had to visit the other day. I was picking up a laptop from one of our help desk groups, and this place looked like a tornado had gone through it. They were moving out so another group could move in, but geez.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I went to a small business in my former city once to fill out an application. Every desk was covered with crap. They put me at one person’s desk, and there was so much paperwork littered over it that I could find literally no space on which to write. The entire office was like that and also silent as a tomb. I finished the application and then high-tailed it out of there.

      I was glad they didn’t call me for an interview, as I would have turned it down. My space is never completely perfect, but I don’t think I could work in an environment like that.

    5. Mama Bear*

      I had a summer job where I was brought in to help make sense of the trail of disaster a fired employee left behind. This was pre-everything being in the cloud, so when they left, they literally threw papers in the air, shredded or trashed other documents, and destroyed softcopies on disk. We spent at least a full week taking over a spare room and literally piecing the documents together in piles on the floor. Then I had to match what I could with the soft copies (which may not have been the same version) and THEN everything needed to be entered into their new document management software (someone wised up), filling in the gaps as I went. It was quite the project, but we managed to get it mostly done by the time I left. I would have stayed on if I wasn’t attending college in another state.

      My spouse had an employee retire and after they left, the company still had to deal with the remaining rat’s nest left in the cubicle. He said they filled every shred bin on the floor with documents that were literally decades old, and just took big trash bags to everything else.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      Historical archives: We call this a “paper bomb” and it’s a routine part of the job. Somebody dies or an organization needs the space and we get called to clear out the file cabinets. Our biggest paper bomb to date is about 900 cubic feet. We had to get a grant to hire a contract archivist to deal with it so it didn’t consume all of our staff for as long as it would take to make it usable.

      Our own worst physical mess was Tropical Storm Allison. That was before I worked here, but the archives were in a half-basement area at the time. What could be rescued was relocated using volunteer help and I am not exaggerating when I say it took 15 years to get it all sorted out again. We thought we’d lost entire collections that were later discovered mis-shelved.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        When I read Tropical Storm Allison I assumed you had a former employee named Allison who was a disaster…took me a second to realize you were talking about a literal tropical storm!

      2. Catsaber*

        One of my first jobs was at a historical archive, and the director would paper bomb his office every six months. He was super disorganized and never threw away anything, and just couldn’t be arsed to keep anything clean or organized. So about 1/3 of the archive space was all his junk from over the years. I have no idea why he was the director. Probably for his fundraising/schmoozing skills.

    7. FuzzFrogs*

      (Really gross stuff in this comment.) Used to work in fast food at Disney World.

      One day before a planned inspection, the supervisor realizes that a metal panel covering a corner area below a counter top is removable, which had probably not been a thing anyone has noticed in several years. But, you know, the health inspector might notice, so she removes the panel to check that there’s nothing behind it.

      It….well, “the funk of forty thousand years” would be a good description. Whatever various little things had managed to get behind there had turned into a thick, gooey black substance. It was wet, and sticky. No smell, but it looked deeply unsettling. Some areas were growing a white mold on top of the black goo.

      It’s a toss up between that and all the moldy books I have gotten at my current job (public library) that have given me chest infections.

      3. LibrariAnne*

        At my last gig a huge mold bloom was discovered across an entire floor of the academic library, and staff were made to clean off the books in a marathon session. Absolutely insane and wrecked my allergies.

    8. Goldfinch*

      I’m assuming you mean in an office job? Because my waitressing answer to this question would keep you awake at night.

      Office answer: one of the “frat bro” types thought it would be hilarious to “file” a piece of pizza in a fellow frat bro’s cabinet (under P for pizza, of course) but didn’t realize the recipient had already left for a week of work travel. The grease dripped down and solidified many pages together, there were ants, it was a whole thing.

      1. Quill*

        I’m laughing really hard but I also remember desk cleanouts at school where, among other things, there would be year old rotten bannannas and nests full of what baby mice leave behind when they’re old enough to move out.

      2. in the file room*

        I’ll take answers from all sectors! I used to work in television, where a big part of my job was to take care of the (often food-heavy) garbage, so I’m a bit tougher re: grossness than my current position implies.

    9. Quill*

      ooooooh.

      SUMP PUMP PIG OVERFLOW HELL!

      So I worked in a lab (yes, this is hell pig lab: I was there too long) that, among other things, was in the basement and required sump pumps to connect the hastily installed lab plumbing to the real plumbing. The nature of some of the chemicals we worked with and which therefore got washed down the drain in trace amounts corroded the gaskets & therefore the pumping mechanism.

      Flash forward to a 12 hour experiment where we needed fresh porcine skin samples and had to prep them ourselves, which lead to a lot of washing of equipment and a lot of biohazard bags stacked next to, you guessed it, the sump pump… Which broke and started jetting water all over the floor.

      Pig skin scented, nasty water, that our fortunately sealed biohazard bags were sitting in, and no way to turn the damn sump pump off…

      By the time I left that day I’d had to bleach the entire lab and honestly, I should have quit that day, NONE OF THAT was a proper lab setup.

    10. Atlantian*

      In college (Big 10 University), I was hired in the library accounting department to do their filing. Turned out, the person who had had the job prior to me had some measure of autism and had just made up their own filing system, without anyone knowing or noticing, and then used it for the entire 4 years he worked for them. I spent the entire semester reorganizing about 100 of those 4 drawers tall filing cabinets worth of invoices and order forms. It was a nightmare. But also, one of those things I kind of want to keep on my resume forever, because it was a monumental undertaking, and I got it done.

      1. in the file room*

        Isn’t it so satisfying?! I got a deep and perverse joy out of making it all perfect again.

        1. Warm Weighty Wrists*

          Right?? I worked in my college’s archival library as work study, and I have very fond memories of sitting in a back room working through boxes of papers while listening to my Discman, thinking “You go here, and you go here, and where do you go? Ah, you go Here.” Knots in my back relax just thinking about it.

    11. Mimmy*

      My story probably don’t compare to the others but…

      When I was interviewing for a job back in 2001, the manager took me around the area of the department, and one woman’s desk was stacked pretty high with charts she was processing. They explained that the other woman who did the same task had went away with no word on when she’d return. The woman at the desk was clearly not thrilled with being left with all that work.

    12. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Some coworkers left the last slices of an all-nighter pizza in a kitchen cabinet. I found it a month later, while searching for my mug, almost fosillized and smelling of greesy cheese. We had to scrap the remains with alchohol, a spatula and a kitchen knife.

      1. Autumnheart*

        When I went to college as a freshman, lo these many years ago, I decided to try making some cookies in the communal dorm kitchen, which required a key to access. Upon gaining access, I noticed a weird smell, and tracked it to the refrigerator to find a foil-wrapped batch of …ribs, I think, that someone had left in there, all summer at the minimum. The spoiled meat had eaten through some of the foil. It was not good.

        I somehow managed to put myself into that mindspace where you go on autopilot to clean up a gross mess, got a trashbag, put the mess into a trashbag and threw it in the dumpster, then Lysoled the hell out of the fridge. I never did make the cookies, but I was pretty much done with the communal kitchen after that.

    13. Ex Alaskan*

      Last year’s 7.1 earthquake in Anchorage. Files you didn’t know you had. Old media (thing promotional DVDs) that turned out to be plentiful. Just … so much stuff. Everywhere.

      Super helpful for finding that thing that you lost behind a shelf. Cause it was now on the floor. With everything else.

    14. Midge*

      In a legal office, an attorney was let go. When they went into his former office to start gathering up all the case files so his work could be redistributed, it was discovered that things were a complete mess. Piles of papers that should have been in case files were everywhere, including a bunch of stuff THROWN INTO THE GARBAGE. Like, discovery for criminal defendants. In the fucking garbage. The impression was that he knew he was being let go, and was trying to “tidy up” or something? I don’t even know the thought process. I don’t remember if he was able to return to his office after the meeting, but even if he wasn’t he absolutely knew why he was being called into a meeting.

      The worst thing is that he wasn’t just trying to cover up for his incompetence and/or sabotage the people who would be taking on the work. He actions could have harmed the people he was supposed to be helping.

      Hmm, maybe this is a bit off topic because while the physical mess was substantial, his ethical mess was the really big pile of stinking doo doo. Discovery. In. The. Garbage.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I once had a short-term job in a one-lawyer law office dealing with their file room and archive room backlog. This particular lawyer had clearly figured out that extreme technical competence in her subfield (which involved very specific financial law things with a lot of federal and state level rules to keep track of, and which involved a lot of clients who would only need her services once each) could substitute for managerial skills, and had gone through a long string of assistants who did not actually get things filed where they needed to go and often quit (or were fired) abruptly.

        I never did figure out where some of those papers in the “to be filed” box needed to go, but after a month or two I (a) think I found all of the boxed with moose doots in them, (b) had all of the boxes in the archive space (which was a fenced cage in the shared basement of her office building, one of several fenced storage areas used by various building tenants – one of the other tenants also tended to tie up their dog in the hallway down there) consistently labelled and stacked on shelves in chronological order rather than “wherever there is space” order and/or on the floor (c) files were all in uniform file boxes rather than whatever was handy that day and (d) assorted other improvements were made.

    15. Crystal Smith*

      I had a retail job in a big, 2-story clothing store. The 2nd floor fitting rooms had been closed for ages, and I eventually found out it was because the store was months behind on go-backs. Every room had a rolling rack crammed full of stuff, plus more folded stuff on the floors, the seats….you couldn’t get back to most of the rooms because the aisle to get to them was full of more rolling racks. You could just see the top of towers of stuff peeking over the changing stall walls. It was mind-boggling, and to this day I wonder how no one at the district level ever noticed how much merchandise the store must have been holding onto back there

        1. Crystal Smith*

          I was only there for a few months, but when I left it was worse than ever – it was just after Christmas and there’d just been an inspection by district managers: prepping for it involved straight-up throwing really old merchandise over the stall walls and into the blocked-off changing rooms (which was fun, but um…) That was years ago and the store was recently renovated, so at some point they must have cleaned it up? I guess? I feel like they would’ve needed a bulldozer…

    16. anonny*

      Frozen stool samples that were packaged incorrectly by the sender. Plastic test tubes were filled to the brim, which of course expand and pop when frozen…it was not a fun afternoon for a lot of people.

      1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

        We had a placenta sent to us via delivery service without formalin. Delivery service accidentally re-routed the specimen to a warehouse that wasn’t temperature-controlled, in the middle of summer, in Texas, for two days.
        When it was finally located and sent to us, we had to basically evacuate the lab because only three of us could handle the stench.

      2. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

        We had a placenta without formalin sent to us via delivery service. Delivery service accidentally re-routed the specimen to a warehouse that wasn’t temperature-controlled, in the middle of summer, in Texas, for two days.

        Once the delivery service figured out their mix-up, they delivered it to us and we had to basically evacuate the lab because only three of us could handle the smell.

    17. Hawk*

      I sorted files where listings of presentations the nonprofit I worked for did were saved. These files were decades old, and in a couple cases, over a century old! The two century-old pieces that were of significant historical value ended up being thrown away. I think. I still cringe when I think about that.

      1. in the file room*

        Yes… once I got through the mess described above, I moved on to other neglected parts of our room, where I discovered some Very Old items. So far my record is something that should have been moved out of the office in 1980! Our retention period is two years…

    18. Playing Catch-up*

      YES THIS. Just started a new job that hadn’t filed things since 2004. 2004!!!!! Paper is coming out everywhere and now I get to spend my free time archiving it. Eventually asked my supervisor what my predecessor did all day (talk on the phone and watch tv). I feel a small amount of rage about it. Just stacks and stacks of papers.

    19. I Love Llamas*

      Funny this question popped up this week. I had the pleasure of coordinating the move of over 400 file boxes, 8-10 file cabinets and 400 blueprints from someone’s “She Shed” to a storage unit so the appropriate people can go through the information and see what can be dumped. Two trucks, 6 laborers…it was a fun way to start the week.

    20. QCI*

      I worked in disaster cleanup, so my job was cleaning up physical messes all the time. Water, fire, sewer, biohazard, hoarders, etc

    21. ...*

      Lol. Spilling an industrial container of handsoap. You’d think soap would be easy to clean up, but you would be very wrong.

      1. Alexandra Lynch*

        My husband, a trucker, once witnessed a spill of 50:1 concentrated lubricating jelly on a two lane highway. (It was being hauled in barrels to a processing plant where it would be bottled for consumer use.)

        The local fire department said, “It’s water-soluble; we can just turn the fire hoses on it.” No. It GREW.

    22. stuckinacrazyjob*

      Once I fell into a pile of garbage at work. The entire backroom was filled with garbage bags that hadn’t been taken out. I slipped and fell right into them and had to be pulled out by a supervisor.

    23. MA RMV scandal*

      At least these messes didn’t make the newspapers. In Massachusetts, there was an entire scandal involving the motor vehicle department not processing the reports of infractions from other states which started because someone whose license should have been pulled had a deadly accident.
      Eventually it came out there were boxes of these reports from other states sitting unprocessed.

    25. Zephy*

      First job out of college was with Americorps (City Year specifically). My team had a classroom in the school where we served that was our base of operations. I took it upon myself to clean out and try to organize the cabinets full of Stuff that we had inherited from previous years’ teams. Just…stuff. Construction paper, printer paper, notebook paper. A bin full of art supplies (markers and pencils etc), rolls of tape, posters, chalk (the cabinets were painted with chalkboard paint). Random swaths of fabric?? Bits of CY swag, probably for token-economy purposes? Actual bits of token-economy…uh, tokens. It took the better part of a day. You bet your bippy I sifted through that bin full of markers and threw out the ones that didn’t work anymore.

      My approach to cleaning and organizing something like a closet is to take everything out of it, get rid of all the stuff in it that’s garbage, clean everything, then find homes for everything that’s left. It’s exhausting and it can be overwhelming, especially if I don’t feel like I have the authority or a clear enough set of rules to determine what can be safely thrown out and what should be kept.

    26. Kesnit*

      I was working for a temp agency and got an assignment to a company that contracted unarmed security guards. For some reason (that no one ever told me), rather than putting employees paperwork into the employee’s folder in the file room, they just stacked the paperwork on the desk (and floor) of an empty office. I guess someone realized that wasn’t a workable filing system, so bring on the temp!

      It took a few months, but I got all the papers filed.

    27. Clever Name*

      My first-ever job out of grad school was at a mid-size airport. Part of my job was to keep track of records that had to be kept essentially forever. These records had been gathered from a myriad of locations and were sitting in piles all over my soon-to-be office, waiting to be organized and filed. Right before I started, the area experienced a severe windstorm, and the very thick windows of my office blew out. Maintenance staff came in and boarded up the windows in the aftermath. They were in emergency mode, so they understandably trampled on the wet papers that had blown around the office. So when I arrived at work, there were very tall piles of wrinkled papers in random order that I had to go through. Some of the documents were duplicates that had been stored in different locations. I don’t even remember how long it took me to go through everything. Months probably.

      1. Clever Name*

        Reading the other responses reminded me of the other big messes at this same job. The terminal building was 60 years old at this point, and we had sewage overflows not once, but 4 times over the 2 years I worked there. I did not have to do the actual clean up, thank god, but I did have to be the “escort” for the cleanup crew, as the ramps were restricted access. Fun times.

    28. !*

      I was the only one who cleaned out a coworkers cubicle of 15 years worth of (mostly) documents for the new hire on our team. I even cleaned the surfaces with wipes, something old coworker never did. No one else even offered to help. The kicker? My boss, who SAW me doing the cleaning thanked EVERYONE for cleaning out/up the cubicle in our team meeting. Never again will I do that.

    29. blaise zamboni*

      Oh man. In my old job as a medical office manager, my coworker (our senior office manager–she’s been there since the beginning of the office) was very laissez-faire about uh…filing correctly? Organizing in any way? When we had physical patient charts, she would routinely file their charts by finding approximately the correct letter of the alphabet and shoving the chart somewhere in that general area. When we had to shuffle physical charts around to prepare for our full EHR shift, I moved our inactive charts up to about the letter M before I got busy with another project and had to pause on that. Out of the blue, she moved all the remaining charts into a different filing cabinet which had 5 drawers, and she sorted them essentially like this: “M-P”; “M, R, Q, S”; “S”, “M, R, S, T”, “the rest of the alphabet”. On a slow night after she’d left, I realphabetized both cabinets for my own sanity, and I got chastised by my boss the next day for wasting time on non-urgent projects. In this job, Coworker and I also had to run a number of daily reports and file those by day. She put those in an accordion folder each month, and at the end of each month, she put all the materials into a huge undifferentiated stack and dumped it unlabeled in a cabinet in the back office. I was lucky enough to be the representative for our internal audit, so I had the super-fun experience of being on the phone with a colleague asking for reports from January 2019, and frantically looking at the piles arranged neatly in this order: 3/19, 2/19, 12/18, and 11/18. I told her I couldn’t seem to find that date and she let me call her back the next day. When I asked my coworker the next morning where the hell 1/19 had disappeared to, she looked around, realized that she put 1/19 on the shelf BELOW 2/19 and 3/19, completely on its own, for no reason–and she just shrugged at me like I was the stupid one for not finding it.

      When that office finally expanded, I was the one to box up materials from our shared office areas. I found PHI dating back to 2012 in unlocked drawers. I just about ripped all my hair out.

      My current office is comparably better, but it still has its issues. One project I’m supposed to tackle is a huge amount of returned mail addressed to patients. This mail was originally sent to our customer service department, but they’re unreasonably busy, so that mail just piled up in a cube….for a year and a half….We got the blessing to shred anything from last year, but that still leaves us with several boxes of mail from this year. I also became responsible for clearing out some cabinets to hold our most recent audit materials. The cabinets hold old audit materials, but they haven’t been touched since *2013*. I filled up 7 archive boxes with this stuff. It only took me a few hours to clear all of it, so it’s baffling that nobody else had the time or motivation to do this before.

    30. Annooo*

      I used to work with a colony of research dogs who had endemic giardia and a penchant for uh, “recycling” poops. We would play with them on Fridays sometimes, but some of them when they got over excited would barf. So barf combined with poops and running dogs… It’s a good thing they were super cute!

    31. Phoenix Programmer*

      It was digital but I consider it a big mess. I found a 52 nested if statement formula in an inherited Excel report.

      As in “if this then … if this then …” 52 times!

      The kicker? The formula only produced 4 results. It took me 16 hours to parse through and I replaced it with 1 if and a vlookup.

      Most of this guy’s workbooks were like that. He somehow would build a report once, then manage to pass it on to another analyst.

  23. Ruth (UK)*

    I know number 2 in the most recent post before this one was over reacting but it’s suddenly making me overthink my plans for a potluck next week…

    I work at a UK university where we have lots of international staff incl many Americans. On the day of Thanksgiving, we’re having an event after work in the form of a potluck (ps. potluck isn’t really a thing in the UK but we’ve explained it to people). We haven’t called the event Thanksgiving (we’re calling it ‘international potluck’) though a lot of people will make/bring food items typically associated with Thanksgiving (the idea is to bring something from your country if you want [or bring whatever you like] and there are a good handful of Americans coming. My mother is American though I was born and brought up in the UK – I intend to bring a couple typical thanksgiving sides).

    When I say ‘we’ though, I actually mean my old department – I changed jobs (within the uni, to a new department) only last week. They have made it clear I’m still welcome at this event (I’ve had several people contact me to tell me I should still come).

    The organiser has sent around a google docs sign up sheet so people can say what they’re bringing. I have let her know that while I intend to come, I am not totally certain of my attendance (I let her know this while I was still working my notice in the last department) and therefore will not put anything down on the sign up sheet (as it’s better to have accidental duplicates than for someone to decide not to bring something cause they think I am – and then I don’t make it). I also let the organiser know what I intend to bring if I come.

    I am still not 100% sure if I will definitely make it (and I’ve communicated this to her again this week) but think I will. So basically, I’m doing the thing that OP2 from today’s earlier post got so wound up about – bringing something to a potluck but not declaring it or signing up. Just showing up with it…

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      Just some reassurance that you already know, but: there is nothing wrong with what you’re doing! A potluck signup can help make sure that you don’t end up with everyone bringing disposable cups but no one bringing soda, but it’s not writ in blood. Life happens, plans happen, if they want a set menu, they’d get it catered. Bring what you want to bring, if you’re able to make it.

      Also, with a giant potluck where *everybody* brings food? Showing up empty handed is not a bad thing. It means they don’t have to shove things around to find room for yet another dish, and there’s another mouth to eat the food. At a previous job, we’d have to go hunt down people who worked on other floors to come help eat all the food for the potluck.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        Thanks :)

        This event will likely be around 15 people so it won’t be so huge that we’ll have a major leftover food problem. One reason doing it on a Thursday is good as well is that people will be in again the next day if they need to leave anything in the work fridge overnight (the event is on campus).

      2. cmcinnyc*

        If it’s at all Thanksgiving-themed, a) there is no such thing as Too Much at Thanksgiving, and b) every family/region makes traditional sides in their own particular way so even if two (or more) people brought cornbread you can specify that yours is Yankee cornbread, not Southern or whatever and all will be well.

        No Hawaiian Rolls though, because they’re temporarily jinxed.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        Hah! I didn’t even know what Hawaiian rolls were and had to google it. They were not what I thought they’d be! I thought they would be a sandwich containing ham and pineapple (for US readers, in case this is a British term thing, we often use the word ‘roll’ interchangeably with ‘sandwich’ when the sandwich is made in the type of bread we’d refer to as a ‘roll’ (which is often anything that isn’t sliced bread).

        1. londonedit*

          I totally didn’t know what Hawaiian rolls were either (I also imagined a ham and pineapple roll-sandwich!) but at least I now know that they are allegedly not cheap ass.

        2. Elenna*

          Honestly I’m still not sure what “rolls” are in general? Cylindrical bread? Small loaves of bread? Bread that’s rolled up into a spiral? Bread with fillings???

    4. Mama Bear*

      You might also consider contributing something you can drop off, like sodas or paper goods. That way it doesn’t matter if you attend or not as long as the organizer has the item(s).

      Insofar as the LW, I wouldn’t worry about that applying to you. I think LW’s reaction is not common or typical at all. Pot lucks are so named because you don’t really know what you will get and the lists are a guideline. I hope you get to attend and have fun. Don’t worry about LW’s evil twin.

    5. Parenthetically*

      If you’re not sure you’re coming, best to do exactly as you’re planning to do! Only OP2 will be annoyed. ;)

    6. UKCoffeeLover*

      I work in the UK higher education sector too. We might not call them pot lucks, but we often have meals where people bring a dish to share and never use a sign up sheet. These things normally work out fine, and if they don’t and everyone brings cheap ass rolls, that just adds to the fun!
      You’ve told the organisers that you might not be there and what you’ll bring if you can make it, that plenty good enough in my opinion. :)

  24. Valancy Snaith*

    I need an outside opinion to determine whether I’m being emotional.

    My mom passed away on Halloween. I was off for a little over a week before returning back to work the following Saturday. My boss gave me the bereavement time with no questions asked or any requirement to provide proof, etc., which was lovely, but I’m slightly irritated that my workplace didn’t send flowers or even pass a card to be signed. My parents lived a long way away, so obviously no one was going to be at the funeral, and I can understand not sending flowers, but I’m miffed that no one even had a sympathy card for me. I know this is something we’ve done in the past because I’ve signed a half dozen in two years here, and another employee’s mother passed away a couple of months ago and the company sent flowers AND we all signed a card for her.

    Is this my grief brain talking, or am I right to be upset?

    1. ThatGirl*

      It’s OK to be upset, but try not to take it too personally, unless this is part of a larger pattern of you feeling overlooked.

    2. machinations and palindromes*

      I think when you’re grieving, your ability to handle disappointments and downsides is already at its max, and so any extra drop can make it all spill over. Feeling like you’ve been ignored in your grief is absolutely an okay thing to feel! Especially when you’re already at your limit, even a “small thing” can make it all collapse like a deck of cards.

      So I’d indulge in the feelings however much you want to, but I wouldn’t mention it to your boss or anyone else at your job. It’s okay to feel it, but asking about it will either get you 1) people thinking it’s strange you’re asking for condolences, 2) people feeling aghast that they forgot you, thus socially requiring you to comfort them and assuage their feelings about, oh no, you don’t really feel upset that they forgot your mom died.

    3. CatCat*

      I understand why this is upsetting and it is certainly okay to feel upset. If the folks you work with are generally good, thoughtful people, it sounds like this was an unfortunate mistake. Try to think about it through that lens. Though it hurt your feelings, it wasn’t a personal slight. Just humans being humans making errors in life.

    4. beanie gee*

      I’m really sorry for your loss. :(

      It’s possible the boss didn’t tell the people usually responsible for cards, thinking they were respecting your privacy or just as an oversight. I’d be a little disappointed also since it’s a nice gesture that says “we know you’re going through a hard time” and can take the pressure off of feeling 100% together at work.

    5. Mama Bear*

      I also wonder if it was a matter of the information not being distributed to the people that usually do that kind of thing. For example, here if the office manager hears about it, she will absolutely get a card going. But if it’s left to other folks, they can be hit or miss. My guess is that it was unintentional. I’m sorry for your loss.

    6. Not really a waitress*

      Both? The week before my father died, a coworker’s father died and I took charge and had the card passed around etc. She would have been the one who made sure it was done for me but she was still out when my father died. He didn’t have a funeral so no flowers were sent. (Person who did flower orders said because there was no funeral she didn’t know where to send flowers?!) 2 weeks after I returned from bereavement, someone’s spouse died unexpectedly and I was the asked to be the POC for the card and money collection. It chapped my hide.

      When my mom died, I was only in my second week at a new job. The site ops manager personally sent me a plant. Sometimes its not personal but who is in charge and who is organized.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        OP, I have no advice to add to your situation, but I’m sorry for your loss.

        To this comment – Ugh.. the POC ask 2 weeks after you’d returned to work from your own loss would have bothered me so much! I think the ideal ‘soft pass’ response is some derivative of “I’m still processing my own fresh loss and this is too much right now, I can’t” but I’d have been so blown away if someone asked me that so quickly that I’d probably have just agreed and been mad later.

        I’m sorry for your losses – the treatment in your first paragraph is callous but as you said, sadly commonplace.

      2. WellRed*

        “2 weeks after I returned from bereavement, someone’s spouse died unexpectedly and I was the asked to be the POC for the card and money collection.”

        I would have refused, based on the timing alone.

    7. Commuter*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.

      The sting of not getting a sympathy card, in a culture where you know they happen, sucks. I think the hard thing about flowers, sympathy cards, etc. is that more often than not it isn’t an assigned responsibility to anyone so it’s easy to slip through the cracks and to assume someone else has handled it.

      Take care of yourself right now.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      My work didn’t do anything when my FIL or grandfather passed (and I was at work when I got the news about my FIL so they all saw how wrecked I was). I did get a lovely card and chocolate bar from one coworker who is an absolute sweetheart but nothing from the group.
      Meanwhile another coworker got flowers for a minor surgery (procedure Wednesday back to work Monday), another got a Happy Hour with a round on the bosses for a work anniversary.
      Its upsetting and not just you. I wouldn’t hold a grudge but I don’t think you are out of line for being upset.

    9. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      I feel you. Two months ago grandmother passed away on a Monday, and I took that day to grieve, and I came back to flowers and a card. It warmed my heart. But my grandfather (other side of the family) passed three days later and I came back to no card, no flowers, no acknowledgement of the secondary loss. I was irritated and disappointed. One loss did not negate the pain of the other.

      I’m sorry your team disappointed you. It is disappointing.

      1. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

        Adding more sympathy for your loss.

        Were the other people who got cards further up in the hierarchy? I’ve worked at jobs where people at x level get an allotment of $a for gifts or going away parties, and people at x-1 level get $b<a allotment, etc. and other jobs where higher ups got cards from the whole staff, and lower staff only got their department etc.

  25. MousePrincess*

    I’ve been at a new job for 6 months and am really reconsidering if it is for me. I work in a 9-5 M-F position at a museum. The work is interesting and dynamic, but my boss expects everyone to work at least an hour or two extra every day, and be here on weekends at a moment’s notice (even when I can’t be useful to the guest services staff) just for the sake of it. She questions your commitment to your position if you have to leave at 5 or even 5:30. I knew going into this that I’d have to put in extra time here and there, and of course I am flexible, but I feel like now I’m really bending over backwards and I’m going to burn out. I don’t want to look for a new job again, or have a 6 month stint on my resume but god, I’m already so tired!

        1. WellRed*

          Well, what if it really wasn’t an option for you to stay extra? Like, if you had to pick a kid up from daycare or had some other duty? If you think that would still get you a talking to, I’d start looking but I realize getting a museum job isn’t easy.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Yes, this stinks.
      Are you hourly? Have you talked to coworkers about this?
      Hope you find a coping strategy soon.

    3. blackcat*

      Are you getting paid for that time?
      If you’re classified as exempt, are you sure that’s the right classification?

      1. YRH*

        It was the one yesterday where the entire front of the card was covered in raspberry colored glitter and I had to go wash my hands after signing.

      1. WellRed*

        Careful. Last time I commented here about glitter bombs several of the doomsdayers said doing so could get you charged with assault.

        Eyeroll.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s why they’re sent via anonymous through a service, tracks are already covered. Get yourself that subpoena!

          I’d like to see some case law, please and thanks whenever possible charges are brought up.

  27. Jaid*

    Co-worker found a bedbug crawling on her desk. She bravely taped it down so facilities could identify and verify…I had to be the one to transfer it to a piece of note paper to get it off her desk.

    Sigh.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      My coworker is fearless . . . except about bugs. I am the designated Cricket Hunter here.

      But I’d still take crickets over bedbugs.

    3. Arts Akimbo*

      That was extremely quick-thinking on her part. I’d be like ***squish*** “Oh no, I should have preserved it for facilities!” Good on you for being the bug-transferrer!

    4. Clever Name*

      Ha! My boss has a tick enveloped in tape stuck to her bulletin board. She found it somewhere and saved it to prove to another coworker that ticks are indeed found in our state. We are all biologists, so it’s normal (for us) to have specimens tacked to your bulletin board. I’m sure our other coworkers think we are weird. And they are right.

  28. So anon today*

    Just venting.

    I do a one hour call in daily radio show with an 80+-year-old man who has been broadcasting for more than 50 years. He burps quietly on air sometimes and it makes me crazy, but he just swears it doesn’t pick up over the microphone (it does). Today, he ripped a high loud fart on air, and acted like nothing happened. I’m just at a loss. My Boss won’t get rid of him because of his age And possible agism (employee often says ”I’m old” as an excuse) and he genuinely believes his long career means he’s the best thing to ever hit radio. Ugh!

    1. Mazzy*

      Omg this made me burst out laughing! I like the venting comments sometimes but this was not what I was expecting!

  29. sigh*

    A little long….How would you handle this situation? Posting for a friend and reposting their text to me (with permission).

    2 ½ years ago I started temping for my dream job; eventually I was made a temporary work (a formality) and 7 months ago made into a permanent position. I worked for a very very large department but my sub-department of 20 is pretty small. The 20 of us are pretty close. I occasionally work with Scott – maybe a handful of times in the last 2 ½ years. Scott is a very friendly and very professional person but seemed to have a negative attitude. While he was always complaining it was normal office stuff – I hate being stuck here during a snowstorm; I think this procedure should be done differently – nothing outrageous, always respectful and always took more of the form of venting to a friend.

    Since I wanted this to become a permanent position while I was contracting/ temp I kept my head down, focused on my work. I didn’t really pay attention to office gossip. After I became permanent Scott became very distant from me. Answers to my questions were one word; if no greeting was required I was ignored. He wouldn’t even say hello in the hall! I just figured it is what it is.

    Scott had some workpapers he uses to complete a report for executives. The workpapers are his. I asked if he would share them as they would cut down on a procedure I am responsible for by days, even weeks. Basically we were calculating the same result but were given different access to different systems. As a contractor, temp and new employee my access was very limited. While my access will increase overtime, due to official company policies this will be a while. Please know I am not trying to get Scott to do my work; the section I would like to work with him on is just one section of a large process.

    I spoke to our mutual boss. I in NO WAY complained about Scott; didn’t even bring him up. I asked if we could brainstorm how I could get the information without having to bother any of my teammates. We came up with a solution. Still takes a while, but it works and I can get my results.

    My boss then told me something in confidence in very general descriptions during the meeting. Apparently 5 years ago the company had a scandal. I knew about this. It was dealt with and corrected immediately and those involved were fired. Scott apparently was collateral damage. The company felt Scott should have known what was going on given his position, but because he had done his job, dotted and crossed his I’s and T’s there was nothing that could be done. Of those still at the company, including executives, believe Scott is innocent but looking at the big picture an outsider might think Scott’s actions were in a gray area. Due to Scott’s very niche knowledge, he has mentioned that he is job searching for quite a while. No one outside of the company and an external review company knows about the scandal. In other words this did not hit the news or anything in a way that would make Scott look bad.

    I found out Scott’s previous responsibilities were shuffled around after the scandal. When I accepted a newly formed position, about 60% of my job are Scott’s old responsibilities. This is news to me, even after being here almost 3 years I had no idea. I guess this somewhat explains Scott’s recent distant attitude towards me.

    I do think from what little I know, Scott got caught up in the wrong place wrong time. I just don’t know how to work with him. My boss has been amazing coming up with solutions. I’m in the dark but my boss has said he is working on solutions to many department situations. It’s just, occasionally Scott and I need the same references but he doesn’t want to be a team player – You do your job, I’ll do mine; You should know what your doing so stop asking me for data you can figure out on your own. Without letting on that I know about the scandal (not my business) how do I get Scott to understand I’m on his side; his team; we work in the same department? I have data and resources that would help him as well. I have voluntarily given these resources to him to try and show him I’m just trying to do my job efficiently like him. I’m just frustrated!

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Who is supposed to be managing Scott? Right now he’s a missing stair and everyone is working around him instead of telling him to shape up.

      If he feels he’s being treated unfairly, it’s on him to advocate for himself or move on, but making your job harder shouldn’t be an option.

      1. sigh*

        The mutual boss manages my friend and Scott. My friend thinks there is more to the story as the boss just keeps saying we’re working on things; we’re aware there is a problem; etc.

  30. SkSkSkSkSkSkSk*

    What do you do about a grown adult who chooses to act like a teenager (think: big sighs, eye rolls, passive aggressiveness, etc), but always toes the line of never really doing enough to get put on a pip for it?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      The important think is to not let the person gas light you. People are masters at acting in ways that are obviously hostile but could, technically, be interpreted as not hostile. If you’re the manager I’d name the behavior and say it needs to stop. And if they say something like “I’m just a sigher” say that’s good to know, but it comes across badly, so put a stop to it.

    2. fposte*

      Are you their manager? Because you absolutely can correct the behavior and talk about the overall attitude problem if so.

      1. SkSkSkSkSkSkSk*

        So, I continue to correct he behavior. but there’s a point where I’m just correcting personality/being someone’s mother and less their supervisor, ya know? Larger problems absolutely are addressed, but it’s the tiny things that aren’t really “correctable” other than a comment.

        And just personally grating, I suppose.

        1. fposte*

          They are absolutely correctable! “Jane, we’ve talked about the attitude and the way it’s expressed in eyerolling and sighing. In your work here, I expect you to be pleasant and professional in manner and communication, and right now you’re falling short. I need you to work on improving in that area. Can you do that?” And if she doesn’t improve, I don’t see why you couldn’t put her on a PIP. Just make sure you observe the specifics, identify them, and note their overall impact to avoid the vague “don’t be how you are.”

        2. Parenthetically*

          I don’t think it’s mothering to take this kind of stuff seriously, and I don’t think you are stuck just correcting in the moment. I mean, I assume you’ve had this conversation: “Jan, it’s important that you stop rolling your eyes, speaking in a sarcastic or rude tone, and sighing dramatically when talking with me or your coworkers. Going forward, I need you to completely stop doing these things. Not just cut back on them, but stop doing them altogether. In order for you to succeed in this role, you need to be actively cordial and helpful toward your colleagues, and stop entirely with behavior like this, which is offputting and alienating.”

  31. Me--Blargh!*

    Why are employers so prejudiced against unemployed people?

    I searched for three years in a very depressed area (and from there) for which I was overqualified, and it took some time to get out. I recently moved to a larger job market but I’m not getting any responses here, either (it’s been about two weeks). I’d like to make a transition out of admin work, but I don’t have enough experience to do what I’m best at —editing, writing, documents— and nobody wants to hire me, not even freelance. I can’t go back to school and I need an income before I can focus on gaining skills.

    I tried a temp agency in my previous city and got no assignments. I tried a temp agency here — they sent me to another branch because allegedly, there was a tech writing job at a bank. But when I went up there, the recruiter told me no, she didn’t have a job like that, the other person must have misunderstood, and all she had was a direct hire for something I didn’t want (a dead-end admin job in a one-person office looking for someone who would never leave). She also said that with a three-year gap on my resume, there was little chance I’d find anything. She said she would look for direct-hire spots for me, but her attitude was so overwhelmingly negative I can’t seem to shake it. I feel like I will never work again and she was just confirming that.

    I just upheaved my entire life, apparently for nothing. What can I do? Every time I try anything, it either turns into a disaster or it’s a dead end. I can’t even think of what to do next. My brain has shut down. I just want to be working! Just because I’m unemployed does not mean I’m unemployable, ffs.

    1. ACDC*

      This might not be the answer you’re looking for, but you may have to hunker down and take a job you aren’t necessarily thrilled about to kind of reestablish your working credibility (on paper).

        1. Morningstar*

          You said you “didn’t want” the admin job, but you might fake some enthusiasm for something you don’t really want just to get back in the game! You can always keep looking.

          1. Me--Blargh!*

            For that particular one, we decided I wasn’t suitable. It’s a one-person office looking for a permanent employee. The client doesn’t have time to train a line of potentials, the pay is lower than I want for a permanent job, and there is quite literally nowhere to advance and nothing to learn. This is a role I would absolutely leave eventually. Both Negative Nancy and I agreed it wasn’t fair to the client. If it were a bigger company instead of just one person, I totally would have asked her to submit me.

            Plus the (unintentional?) bait and switch between what the first recruiter said and what Negative Nancy actually had really threw me for a loop.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      If nothing else, you have more flexibility to go somewhere else if needed now.

      I think the only way you turn your situation around is direct connection with the person doing the hiring, probably at a smaller place where that person is the owner, and these may be P/T or 1099 roles, and may be administrative. Can you find a connection like my neighbor who owns a firm doing accounting and CFO work for small businesses? While I know you don’t do numbers work, someone like that has a lot of small business connections and could refer you directly to someone who may be looking for admin support, or may know yet another SB owner looking for admin support (or if not admin, perhaps web copy or proposal writing. . .I don’t know). Visitors days at BNI groups would be a way to make those connections, too.

      IIRC, there were a lot of constraints on pay before because of the other living situation. Is that still the case, or is it worth taking something below your actual value just to get something new on your resume? What about non-office things, like substitute teaching? I saw something on the news in KC about a couple of the districts needing a bunch more subs, and the requirement was 60 hrs college credit, so that’s why that one comes to mind.

      2. H.C.*

        On other hand, there may be last-minute seasonal hire opps in foodservice / retail (or other holiday-related fields).

    4. periwinkle*

      I had been unemployed for about 3 years and then signed up with a couple temp agencies. Neither cared about a resume gap. The assignments offered weren’t super amazing wonderful jobs, but they brought in money and got me back into the working groove. A couple assignments were extended, and then one turned into a long-term assignment that morphed into a permanent job in a new-to-me field. Now that’s my career.

      So go find another temp agency. Accept some short-term admin jobs if you must. They’ll get you back to a working rhythm and demonstrate to the agency (and others, and direct employers) that you are awesome enough to get even better assignments. If you’re now in a larger job market, there will be multiple temp agencies so you’re not stuck with Ms. Negative Recruiter.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Accept some short-term admin jobs if you must.

        I told them that’s what I was looking for. I am so sick of trying to explain my LD bc people think I’m full of shit and then submit me for jobs that are all numbers. I could try some more, I guess. But I’m starting to feel like all temp job listings are fake and all recruiters are liars.

    5. StellaBella*

      You note this about that recruiter: “all she had was a direct hire for something I didn’t want (a dead-end admin job in a one-person office looking for someone who would never leave). ” Why not this option? If you are in a 1-person office you could have a lot of freedom, I would think? Just trying to say that I would also go out to all the other temp agencies around and also start looking for something seasonal maybe too – at shops? Good luck and fingers crossed for you to find something soon.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        As I explained upthread, it wasn’t a revolving door kind of job — Nancy said the client wants someone who will not leave. I totally would. Also, it was a HUGE amount of duties (and not great pay), so the client is obviously trying to push them off on this person bc she’s overwhelmed.

        Y’all, please don’t get stuck on the one job. We decided I wasn’t a good fit for it because it was so dead-end.

        I think I will try some other agencies next week. I came down with two infections right after moving and am feeling a lot better now. That might have had something to do with why Nancy’s negativity affected me so much.

    6. ...*

      Can you do something like online captioning just to get something current on your resume? I know people who did it as a side gig. Rev.com its called. Or even something app based like uber, lyft, postmates? I mean its a job and shows that you’re willing to buckle down and work even if its not ideal (that’s how I would see it and yes I do screen resumes in my role). I suppose it depends on your $$ situation too. Also I’ve found little gigs on craiglist for editing and stuff that maybe you could roll into a “Freelance Editor” section on your resume? Maybe?

    7. Anono-me*

      My read on it is that you just wound up at kind of a squirrelly temporary agency for your first application. To me, a temporary writing position at a bank is very different from a full-time administrative career position as half of a two person firm. I’m not quite sure how the rep confused those two to begin with. But I really don’t understand why she couldn’t/didn’t confirm the position when setting up the appointment before sending you across town for it.

      I hope you keep applying both at the temporary agencies and directly at positions that have a positive career trajectory.

      As an interim suggestion, would you consider starting a LLC as a rewriter of reports by engineers or other techies ? A friend of mine, Pat, actually did this as a side job. Kris, a mutual friend who was very big in the engineering world, was complaining bitterly about the fact that many engineering programs did not have time for, much less require, any writing classes. “What does it matter what the engineer knows, if the client can’t understand the *&&^%¥£♤■{~$#%&%$$₩¥¥£%$££¥#3=/¤}{€ report?!!!” (He was a drill rigger first.) Pat had a Eureka moment, and presto, a new company was born.

  32. Jellyfish*

    I’ve had a bit of a winding career path, but I am finally (happily!) in a professional job in the field where I want to be. In all my jobs up until now, I’ve been at a fairly low level, was assigned specific tasks to complete, or was otherwise not expected to be involved in long-term, major decisions about how things worked. Now, I have a considerable degree of autonomy and authority over my area. I’m not really sure what to do with it?

    How do I “take ownership” when that’s not a skill I’ve really practiced outside of school? I’ve been hanging back to learn and observe before trying anything dramatic, but I suspect I’ll stay in that observation role indefinitely unless I make the effort to not to. Any suggestions on striking the balance between innovation and not running over other people or repeating what was tried before I showed up?

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      When I use the term “take ownership” with my employees what I usually mean is that they regard problems that arise as theirs to solve. So if the client delivered the wrong set of specs, they don’t sit around saying, “Oh well, they delivered the wrong specs. Guess I’ll sit around until somebody figures that out and brings me the correct specs on a silver platter.” Or if a project is running late, they take it upon themselves to figure out ways to get it back on schedule as opposed to dropping by my office at 4:00 on Friday, saying “By the way, the Jones project is late. See ya Monday!” Taking ownership means realizing that that is a problem and that you need to take an active role in trying to solve it.

      All this is to say that I don’t necessarily believe that taking ownership means doing something “dramatic”. Obviously circumstances differ based on whatever business you’re in. But it doesn’t have to mean jumping in and redesigning a process for the sake of making a splash. It means responding to actual problems when you see them as problems, and considering that problem to be your problem to solve.

      My advice is not to worry quite so much about looking for opportunities to make “long-term, major decisions” and concentrate more on taking problems seriously as your own to solve. Hope that helps!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      One way I grew into taking ownership of my job was to take on the mindset, “My time is valuable and this work isn’t worth my time, so how do I make the work more efficient?”

      Not the second half, which meant doing the work, just better/more efficiently (not just skipping it like the Junior Engineer an OP in a question post above was struggling with). I started with tweaks and changes that would be helpful, but unobtrusive.

      For example, the last time I started a new job, I was put in charge of a semi-annual survey that had been in existence for a while and used a (horribly messy) spreadsheet to track the data. The dramatic thing to do would be to overhaul the spreadsheet, which would not have been welcome. Instead, I made small changes to the spreadsheet (e.g. added formulas so data could be entered in one place and then updated everywhere) both because it made my life easier and because it improved the accuracy of the spreadsheet.

      The purpose of that exercise was to build my own confidence and to let me experiment in taking ownership in a low risk way.

    3. Stornry*

      I would try brainstorming ideas of projects/tasks I’d like to take on and seem to need doing and then discuss it with my manager. You’re new enough to the position that you can legit ask what they’d like you to focus on for your first project. Also, try talking to others on your team, particularly those in a similar position – what are they up to? is there any way you can help/contribute?

  33. BeanCat*

    Just venting today. My doctor has me trying new medicine and today was the first dose – I got NAILED with the side effects at work badly and right now I’m working up the nerve to ask to go home even though I’ve already used my meager PTO for health and surgery this year.

    Wish me luck.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Well that bites. Are you in a job where you can offer to make up hours later? What I do is mostly independent, and the company lets us work on a weekend if we need to. (I try not to — but when my migraines went into full swing, it meant I didn’t spend all my vacation being sick.)

      1. BeanCat*

        Unfortunately not – I’m a receptionist at an 8-5 office and there isn’t really a way to make them up. Ugh, sympathy from another migraine sufferer :(

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Which reminds me when I tried sumatriptan, I had Scary Sidee Effect #1 : stop taking immediately, call your doctor for a different prescription. Heart palpitations have since shown up in my nightmares. :(

    2. Pineapple Incident*

      Good luck! I know you didn’t ask for advice, but if you’ve just started taking meds with hefty side-effect potential, I’d look into intermittent FMLA (sorry if you’ve already done this and you don’t qualify for some reason – I have a chronic illness but I’m basically not sick enough for anything other than the occasional extra telework day). I hope that, whatever you’re taking the meds for, they help!

      1. BeanCat*

        Thank you for this! My doctor actually asked me to stop the medicine immediately based on the reaction I had, but I’ll look into it for the future if we try something else! :)

        1. A Non E. Mouse*

          Hey also ask if there is a certain time of day you can take the medicine so that the side effects will present when you are already home for the evening.

          I mean this only works if the side effects aren’t dangerous (where you’d want someone to find you passed out for example), BUT if the side effects are uncomfortable or alarming to others and you can be alone when they might occur, that’s better.

          I had to do that for a few medication changes – I have a long day that includes a commute I couldn’t skip if ill, so I wanted the medicine to hit me when I was already back home for an evening, or would have a weekend to recover.

          Once we found the right combo, I was able to switch the timing up to work better overall – this was just to see/manage possible side effects.

          Anyway, good luck!

        2. Fikly*

          I hope you feel better soon! I just had something similar happen with a new med, and I had to stop it immediately as well.

          I get weird reactions to meds a lot, and at this point, unless there is an urgent need to start a new one, I plan to start anything new on a day I will not be working, just in case.

  34. Tomato Frog*

    Good ways to ask people “Do you have a minute to answer a question?” or “Do you have time to discuss something?” that makes it as easy as possible for them to say “Not now, let’s talk later”?

    One suggestion I’ve seen is to say “Do you have a minute, or should I come back later?” I like that, but I’m wondering if anyone has any other ideas. If you must be interrupted, how would you like that interruption to be phrased?

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      I’d send them an e-mail or an instant message that says “hey, can you ping me when you have time to answer questions about X”. Telling them the topic is crucial; I might have time right now to answer questions about llamas, but alpacas are more time-intensive.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve gotten good results using time estimates. A standard Skype message from me is “Hi $Name, Can you give me 5 minutes for an X-project question before lunch? I’ll email if I don’t hear back from you by then.”
      (Bonus… I’m getting better at my time estimates.)

    4. Rebecca*

      I’ve had to take a firm stance with a few people here. This is the busiest time of my work year, yet people will call and say “I’m going to include you now on a Skype session so you can see my screen, and I need to ask about…” and the next thing I know, a Skype pops up, and for pete’s sake – have some common courtesy! I’ve told people no, I can’t do this right now, I’m in the middle of putting out 3 other fires, please send an email and I’ll get back to you in 30 minutes (or whatever time frame). I really think it’s rude to assume people are just sitting there waiting to be of service…at least ask!

      1. machinations and palindromes*

        I got those too! At least when it’s not an urgent thing, it’s usually someone I know well who thinks I can just take a quick look, and I’ve got a good enough relationship to say “hey, can we come back to this in X time, I’ve got other stuff.” When it’s not someone I know well, and it’s not an urgent matter, I have no compunction of saying “you’re gonna have to put in a ticket for that”.

    5. Remember Neopets?*

      As someone who gets interrupted every five minutes, “Do you have a few minutes to answer a question?” is fine. If I can’t be interrupted, I’ll shut my door or will tell you to come back later. But really, I would just recommend that you do some self-evaluation about whether you actually need to interrupt that person, or if you could just send it in an email. Is it really a quick interruption that doesn’t need an immediate answer? Email. Is it a really long question that will need a complex answer and possibly a demonstration? Email. Will the person need to reference other materials before they can answer your question? Email.

      Also, if you do interrupt them, get to the point of your question right away. There’s one person who will interrupt me and ask if I have time for a question, I’ll say yes, and then we go through a cycle of “If you’re busy I can come back later.” No, it’s fine, what is your question? “It’s not that big of a deal, I can come back.” Well, at this point, I’ve stopped what I’m doing so you might as well ask it. “I’m sorry, I can come back.” JUST ASK THE QUESTION!

      1. Antilles*

        As someone who gets interrupted every five minutes, “Do you have a few minutes to answer a question?” is fine. If I can’t be interrupted, I’ll shut my door or will tell you to come back later.
        This is the standard I’ve commonly seen used as well.
        >If the door is shut, it’s either “do not disturb” or “only if it’s truly important”.
        >If the door is sort of half-open, work-related interruptions are fine, but if they’re super low priority maybe do an email instead. Oh, and don’t come to chit-chat about the ballgame or your weekend or whatever.
        >If the door is open, I’m not going to be at all irritated if you interrupt, though I might still ask you to come back later.

    6. Agnodike*

      “I’d like to chat with you for a minute about x; what’s a good time for you?” Works well because most of the time the answer’s “Right now – go ahead” but it’s just as easy to come back with “Can you stop by around 3?”

    7. whistle*

      I think all your suggestions are fine. In addition to the wording, it’s important to make it clear with tone and body language that you will accept a no answer and then to *actually* accept the no if you get one. This will make it easier for you to make future interruptions that are acceptable to those being interrupted.

    8. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I got interrupted this week — the umpti-umth week of heads down, exhausting work because I’m the only up-to-speed member of my team — by my very-non-up-to-speed colleague who wanted me to unjam her stapler.

      I was not gracious.

      She swapped for an alternative stapler that was 2 feet away from where she was interrupting me. I quietly filed away some ideas about suggesting that she sort out her problem-solving skills before poking bears.

    9. Warm Weighty Wrists*

      I agree with others that a time estimate and a topic help– “Do you have about five minutes this morning to answer a question about PDFs?” is way easier for me to answer than “Hey do you have a second”.
      The other thing–and this is crucial–try not to take any more than the stated time. No “Oh while I’ve got you here I have another question,” no long-winded explanation of how this became a question unless the person asks for it. There are people at my company who could ask me for five minutes in the perfect way and I’ll say no because I know it’ll take half an hour.

  35. Sad Evaluators For Managers Who Seem Not to Care about the Programs*

    I work for a nonprofit. I think the client facing workers care a lot about what they do, but in terms of program management and leadership, we’ve done the bare minimum as required by funders until now. I was brought on to do program evaluation and improve our services. A big part of this has been digitizing, because until now we’ve used paper files. With the database, I’ve been able to built reports that show important program metrics.

    Let’s say one of the program’s purposes is to build widgets (the real goal is more of an outcome than that, but bear with me). So I built an interactive report where a manager can see the number of widgets sold and average sales price per department, per date range. I showed it to the program manager and he asked, “Why would this be useful to me?” (Keep in mind, he didn’t have his own method for tracking widgets. We literally didn’t track it at all. It’s a new grant and somehow the funder hasn’t required that info yet.)

    It’s basically like that, over and over here. I have to explain to people high up on the organizational chart the basics of program management. It’s so demoralizing. I think I’ve finally accepted that I need a new job, which disappoints me because I’m super passionate about the mission here. But after a year of trying to get people on board, I don’t think it’s going to happen.

    1. One More Alison*

      as someone who works in philanthropy- we are always pushing non-profits to do this kind of work. If program management/ continuous quality improvement doesn’t get their attention, does fundraising? if we’re able to show funders exactly how great the program is, it is more appealing for continued and increased funding?

      If they are still uninterested in improving or selling the program, then (depending on the necessity of the program) they will eventually lose contracts and grants to orgs that do consider PM/ CQI and the programs will go under. Take your skills elsewhere — there are tons of organizations that need you.

      1. Program Eval*

        “as someone who works in philanthropy- we are always pushing non-profits to do this kind of work.” Yeah, I think a foundation told the ED that program evaluation was becoming more important, so he created the role without thinking about the actual changes that would need to occur, and the support from leadership that I would need.

        Thankfully I’ve noticed more program evaluation jobs recently. Hopefully I’ll find something with an organization that actually wants to improve. Thanks for your kind comment.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          the support from leadership that I would need.

          Ooooh, yeah, support from the leadership is essential. An alternative if a groundswelling from the lower ranks, but it sounds like you don’t have either. I say this as someone who has done something similar for my non-profit organization over several years. It’s been two steps forward, one and a half steps back the entire time. I do agree that more funders are pushing this and that more non-profits are responding.

    2. Ali G*

      It is unfortunately usually an impossible position to be a change agent. Unless everyone from top to bottom are on board the reality is you are likely to fail. I’m sorry. It sucks!!

      1. Program Eval*

        Thanks. Yeah, I’ve noticed some places, including this one, think that if you make up a new role and bring in a new person, this magic new person will fix everything. That’s not how it works. Especially if this person doesn’t have the authority to hire and fire the people crucial to progress.

    3. Auntie Social*

      But how do they track whether their methodologies work? Whether it’s fundraising or new members or whatever? You don’t want to keep having X kind of fundraisers if they don’t get great results.

    4. OtterB*

      The program managers could be uninterested in your method for tracking widgets because he’s not used to have metrics, as you’re suggesting. Is it also possible that there’s something else or something slightly different that the managers need? Your answer to “Why would this be useful to me?” might be that Big Funder X expects us to track this, so if you’d like to have continued funding, it’s useful. But your answer might also be “What would be more useful to you?” They might be looking from a different angle and see (to stretch a metaphor) that total widget count doesn’t tell them very much but they’d really like to know red vs. blue widgets.

      Apologies if you’ve already beat your head against that wall too many times. It’s really easy for program managers to get buried in Getting Things Done, especially in a nonprofit where time and resources are always scarce. Getting past that requires that (a) a funder demand it or (b) a higher-up or board demand it. Even after that, if you want evaluation results to be used, you have to get some level of buy-in from the operations staff.

  36. Anonymouseymouseymousey*

    Where do people draw the line about personal use of company computers at lunchtime? Is someone with a publishing agent crossing a line to take a call from the agent at lunch and do edits on the fly via email?
    For background, my company has has no objection to personal web-surfing and phone calls at lunch and on breaks. A co-worker who is productive, organized, and accurate is also a published novelist. Problem is, someone was gossiping that she’s doing this on her company computer. I blinked and said “she has her own tablet.” Then I realized they may be talking about her taking calls from an agent at lunchtime — and yes that’s on the PC phone because we have such bad cell service in this building. There also might be a perception problem because we have flex-time — she sometimes takes lunch at odd hours and stays late to compensate.
    So now I’m worried because gossip is like cockroaches — there’s never only one. I’ll be mentioning it to her before I go home tonight, and I’m trying to figure out how to phrase it.

    1. WorkingGirl*

      Eh, I don’t think it’s a big deal if it’s on breaks, but I know some companies have policies saying what company materials (including phones and laptops) can be used for, some companies are very strict that they’re for work purposes only. If that’s not the rule/norm at your workplace, then I think this is fine and people should stop gossiping

    2. Elizabeth West*

      If she’s doing it at lunch, a good manager wouldn’t have a cow over it. The person who gossips is the problem. It might be worth giving her a heads up that someone is psss-psss-ing behind her back.

      2. Anonymouseymouseymousey*

        Although I’m anticipating a “who said that?” followup. Yes I’m *VERY* mousey on this kind of thing aren’t I?

    3. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

      It’s probably too late for this, but if it’s useful you can always go with “any work done on company computers is company property and you probably don’t want us getting a cut of your book when it’s published.”

      There are potentially sticky legal situations if say, something happened to their computer and it had to be scanned forensically if there was a virus or something, so yeah, better to be safe than sorry when money is involved. If it was like a letter to their kids from Santa or something they aren’t making money on, still technically sketchy but a lower risk.

      Hope the convo went as painlessly as possible!

      1. Anonymouseymouseymousey*

        I went with something like Elizabeth suggested–just letting you know that I’ve heard about gossip that you are working on your novels on the company laptop and… but before I could hit the second phrase, she “oh god no, that would give company ownership of my work, I never do that. That would violate all my contracts! At which point it turned into a much more relaxed conversation about bringing her personal tablet in to work on at lunch so people would see it. And apparently that USB stick is a company thing for an esoteric process she supports. Now to find a gossipy type and feed in the CORRECT info!

  37. AlmondMilkLatte*

    Recently started reading here and I love the cat photos for the weekend Threads and the post about animals in home offices! This makes me think: what kind of coworkers are your pets? Mine are loud and clingy whenever I stay home sick or to take continuing ed credits.

    1. CatCat*

      One of them is just the worst. They’re both under a year old, but the littlest one is so very active and wanting to play and have attention. I had to telework 1.5 days this month and I felt like half the time it was her jumping up, walking on my keyboard, and me picking her up and putting her on the floor over and over again. The bigger kitty would do this too, but lay off more quickly. I was so paranoid they were going to send out an email when my Outlook was open. Fortunately, that didn’t happen, but I did discover when I was back in the office that one of them had managed to add an appointment to my calendar. It was an all-day event with the subject “lk,……………………,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,gfftt.” :-D

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      The Elder Statesdog (12yo bloodhound) is retired, so she just moves back and forth between the couch and her pillow in my office and the backyard all day to change up her napping scenery.

      The Junior Ambassador (5yo whippet mix) spends most of her time napping in the chair behind me, wedged into my kidneys, but when I’m moving around too much and disturbing her, she huffs and puffs and stomps off to either the office pillow or the couch, whichever is not otherwise occupied.

      Basically, “sleeping” is high on the priority list.

    3. Anchee*

      When I started working regularly from home I was actually surprised at my dogs reaction. She was used to spending her days alone, napping (she’s 10 years old and not “high-energy”). Still though, she’s a dog and loves me so when I would get up from my desk for a snack or break or wander around while on the phone she felt obligated to follow. This, of course, cut into her nap time…so eventually every time I’d move she would look at me, slowly get up and then SIGH LOUDLY AT ME. It was at once hilarious and a little hurtful.

    4. whistle*

      One of the many reasons I don’t want to work from home is because my dog would be a horrible coworker!

      Can I go outside now? Ok, inside now? But now I want to go outside. Now I will whine a bit without giving you any hint what I want. Oh, is it dinner time? I want to go outside again. But really I want you to come outside with me. Can I eat dinner now? Here is a toy – I will whine until you throw it, but then I have no intention of going after it. Let’s go outside!

      I love that little doggie :)

    5. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      My cat has been known to flop down on my keyboard and lick her butt.

      I thankfully have yet to have a human coworker do such a thing.

    6. periwinkle*

      We have multiple cats. All but one are sensible AAM-reading coworkers who share space politely.

      Unfortunately, one of my cats is a real Fergus – when I’m typing away, he’ll step on my hands and block the monitor. Whenever I am in a virtual meeting, which is a lot, he takes this as his cue to get in my face and be super clingy as soon as I put on my headset. My current manager and teammates are used to him but I’m moving to a new team in a few weeks…

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Bizarrely, my *fish* were once a distraction. My then-kindergardener had netted a few tiny fish at the lake, and we’d just lost a betta to old age. So we put these three tinies into his 5g tank. One day I was staring into the tank thinking and realized there 2.5 fish left. Scooped out 1/2 fish, fed the other two, and called my husband to prepare him for was coming when he brought her home from after-care. Yes we had a burial.
      (Yes we had to repeat it a few weeks later, and yes, BigFish eventually jumped out of the tank and had to go back to the lake.)

    8. Warm Weighty Wrists*

      My Canine Coworker has a terrible habit of hovering by my desk for our daily “off-site meeting” starting about half an hour before it starts. He also tries to make the meetings last as long as possible, keeping me from other work. Honestly, I’d put him on a PIP except he regularly exceeds expectations in his core competencies–snuggling and cuteness.

    9. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      My coworkers are the worst!

      They spend the entire workday either sleeping at their desks or staring into space – never get *any* work done.

      One is kind of a bully too – she’ll come over to my desk and knock my pens on the floor while staring at me the whole time! Like, “I dare you to do something about this!” The other will do horrible smelling things in their private bathroom and not even have the decency to use Poo-Pouri afterwards.

      Oh, and they are cats…

    10. Clever Name*

      My male cat is *that guy* who comes to your desk to chit-chat and doesn’t respond to subtle (or not so subtle) nonverbal cues that you are working and don’t want to talk to him.

      My female cat is the remote coworker you never see.

      My dog is the micromanager who wants to look over your shoulder and be involved in what you are working on at all times. She is also particular about her territory (me) and will tell people she sees as a threat (anyone walking fast or wearing clompy shoes) to go away. [My dog actually goes to work with me, my cats, thankfully, do not]

    11. Ann Onny Muss*

      My girl cats are all very good and non-intrusive if I’m working from home. My boy cat, OTOH, is jealous of my laptop and will plant himself between me and said laptop. I move him. He does it again. Lather, rinse, repeat. He also tends to drool when content, and there have been times I’ve inadvertently put my fingers in a puddle of kitty drool on the laptop’s track pad.

    12. Zephy*

      My partner’s the one that gets to deal with the home-office shenanigans. The rest of the team there alternates between napping and full-contact, no-holds-barred wrestling matches in the middle of the floor! The younger one also likes to climb into Partner’s lap and fall asleep.

  38. R*

    Over the last couple of weeks, I’ve been dealing with a lot of really aggressive networking requests on LinkedIn. Should I just ghost or is there a good way to assertively turn these people down?

    For some backstory, my company’s been getting a lot of press lately, and I’m getting a lot of cold messages on LinkedIn or even my company email from people who want to work here. I’m also kind of a public face for my department. So I’m getting stuff from jobseekers nearly daily.

    Some are polite (“I’m trying to break into the industry and I’d like to get some advice from you over a coffee”) but a lot aren’t (“I sent in my resume a few weeks ago and I haven’t heard anything back, can you please follow up with HR?” from someone who’s unfortunately not at all qualified).

    I’ve tried deflecting with “Sorry, I don’t have any time. November and December are the busiest time of the year for our company, plus my own holiday preparation demands a lot of time.” This works surprisingly rarely. I usually get a couple of follow-ups, often with no sense of time (“I’m sorry to hear that, but I can do today or tomorrow still!” — I have my own life and I can’t drop everything to get a coffee with an internet stranger). I got one really ridiculous reply to that this week: “I’m sorry to hear of your personal troubles and I hope you can find personal peace and productivity. It tomorrow doesn’t work, I can do Monday or Tuesday next week.”

    I feel bad for these people and hope they find a good job, but at the same time they’re perfect strangers acting entitled to my time. I want to say something back but run the risk of someone else saying “oh that guy R is a real a-hole,” but I feel the best option is to just ghost and/or remove people repeatedly bugging me to get them an interview or have an informational interview with me on LinkedIn. What do you think?

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      Ignore them. They’re unsolicited e-mails coming to a personal account.

      Also, I haven’t checked LinkedIn settings recently, so for all I know this isn’t possible, but see if you can restrict who can contact you to just 1st connections.

      1. R*

        Yeah, guess you’re right. I’m still working on tamping down my “nice guy” tendencies, because the internet makes people who’ll take a mile when you give an inch, even worse.

        BTW, linkedin settings are kind of nuts. Did you know you cannot hide your phone number? Either I have to a) accept that some “plucky” (annoying) agency recruiter may blow up my phone at any time, b) purge all agency recruiters from my 1st connection contacts (won’t help because if I’m already in their database, I know from experience they will never go away) or c) get rid of 2 factor authentication.

        1. machinations and palindromes*

          holy shit, your phone number has to be public? Good lord. I’m glad I never gave them mine. I guess if they force it, I can give them my google voice number. That doesn’t ring any phones, it just sends an e-mail.

          1. R*

            To clarify: you can’t hide it from first degree connections. And if you try to remove it while you have 2FA on your account, you get a nondescript error message that completely hides that (something like “an error occurred, please try again later”).

            It’s honestly a really bad tool for privacy.

        2. Goldfinch*

          I switched my phone number to Google voice and just let people call into the ether. Even after doing that, a recruiter managed to somehow track down my unlisted land line and leave me an incoherent 2-minute-long voicemail on it.

          1. R*

            I’m aware of that option but it’s a massive pain in the neck. Why is there not a “hide my phone number” checkbox somewhere?

    2. Reba*

      If you are getting way too many to handle, yeah, just ignore. Or decide to check just once in a while to scan for people you actually want to engage with.

      If you feel like you should respond somehow (for your/your company’s reputation? idk) I’d come up with a form answer along the lines of “I have nothing to do with hiring and will not respond to queries about jobs” that you can just copypasta.

      What you are seeing is that if you give people a reason (no time) they will argue with your reason (have time next week)! It feels like softening to give a why, but don’t. Just say I don’t do this.

      1. R*

        Sounds like letting them fall on deaf ears is the move. I’m a very type-A person and I almost compulsively respond to everything so I can stay at inbox zero… guess this just means I need to let go.

        I’m neither a recruiter, nor in HR, or in any other sort of public facing role. So I’m not expected to reply. I just happen to volunteer a lot at industry conferences, etc.

        The hustle sharebait stuff on social media — “I sent out 1,500 emails and got 0 replies, but I kept at it! Never take no for an answer or you’re limiting your potential!” — has really poisoned people’s minds. Now “I have zero free time for coffee networking or informational interviews for at least three months” isn’t taken as a polite let down but a reason to push more. That “I’m sorry you’re too busy, hope you can be more productive, btw how about tomorrow?” will get a reply here, because if I see his name in our candidate list I will absolutely veto him. What a weirdo.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If this helps ease your conscience: You’re not ghosting them. Ghosting would be engaging, then disappearing.

      What you’re doing is ignoring the LinkedIn message equivalent of a spam call/email.

  39. Rebecca*

    Today’s post about being invited to a party but really not being invited – and at my company, it’s the opposite problem. Very few of us want to go to our holiday party, but in our case, attendance is mandatory! We have to ride a bus for 8-10 hours total round trip depending on traffic to attend an extremely crowded 3 hour event, in the winter. People are actually hoping for a nor’easter snowstorm so we don’t have to go. I really hope we don’t get stuck on the interstate behind an accident, which is common here, it can be shut down for many hours at a time. One truck jackknife and you can sit there for several hours. What should be a perk for us is turning into a huge time suck and a not so pleasant experience. I’d much rather go to a local restaurant and call it a day.

    1. Quill*

      Mandatory parties… unless you’re getting paid to go to the party, fake sick!

      “Oh, I’m so sorry Felicia, after lunch I started to feel nauseous, I won’t make it to the party…”

    2. ThatGirl*

      I don’t understand companies that do this – why would you spend so much time and money and effort transporting people 4-5 hours away? Every company holiday gathering I’ve ever been to has been close to the office; I could maybe see if you were near a big city and it was 30-60 minutes away. But this sounds pretty miserable.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      Wow. I’m sorry.
      I hope it’s a paid day at least. If it’s off-the-clock, I wouldn’t go – flu/injury/transportation-to-bus fail – something. Some people do have nonobvious medical issues that would make an 8-10 hour bus ride impossible.
      Side question: How do people not get sick after sharing the same close air for that long? I’d think everyone would get the local flu bug after the party.
      Sympathies.

    5. Bagpuss*

      8-1 HOURS!?
      That’s crazy. Why? Are you being expected to go to a different branch office?
      I think I would definitely have some sort of emergency which made it impossible to go (not least because I get motion sickness in buses, and I have chronic pain which would be made worse by such a long trip – 8 hours would be a nightmare)

      1. Rebecca*

        It’s actually to the home office, we’re a satellite office, and due to heavy traffic and the location of said office, 4 hours 1 way is going to be a blessing. Then we attend the event, then back to our locations’ parking lot. The last time I had to make this trip I was nauseous the entire time, as I too get car sick. I’m lucky I didn’t throw up. I appreciate the gesture, I think they mean to make us feel included, and there are good intentions all around, but I am really dreading the whole trip.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Oh, well that changes my answer. I’d send a big batch of holiday cookies with a note about how much you appreciate everyone at that office and so sorry you can’t be there. Maybe a fold over card with a list of ingredients and happy holidays from Rebecca so maybe someone will put it out with the plate of cookies. Then people can remember your name warmly because you’ll be the one who sent cookies instead of the one who didn’t show. Always an optimist over here.

    6. Dr. Anonymous*

      I feel a terrible sciatica flare-up coming on. Can’t ride the bus, sorry. Also maybe your mother is extra sick that day.

  40. What’s with Today, today*

    This has been the best professional year of my career. I was promoted to management in January, unheard of in the family business I work for. I received a huge amount of paid for professional development and this week a company I freelance for tripled there order for the next year. It’s work I find fun and easy and will up my income by about a third. I’m thrilled.

  41. relatively recent hire*

    About nine months ago, I started a new job that I was super excited for, at a place I’d always wanted to work, for higher pay and though my title was the same it meant something a little higher. I posted a lot after that time because, as it turned out, the new job was a hot mess, the boss turned out to be one of the most difficult to work with people I’ve ever encountered, and for six months I felt confused and wrong-footed while I tried to figure out what I’d gotten myself into. It was a trash fire. So I left without another offer. I spent a month job searching and taking care of myself, after just over a month got a job offer at a place where one of my friends works. It was posted as a lower-level position than my previous work but I was trying to keep an open mind (and I really, really wanted to go somewhere where I knew someone who could give me the inside scoop on the good and bad), and when they made the offer they upped the title and salary accordingly- less than the nightmare job, but more than I’d been making before.
    I’ve been at the new job for a month now, and wow, I feel so… relaxed? I’m enjoying meeting my coworkers and working with them, and aside from normal complaints I don’t feel like anyone is actively toxic. It’s like night and day from the last job, where even when I was super excited to start I told myself to hold off judgement (and then I just…kept on holding off judgement until my judgement was “it’s bad”). I just wanted to share to say, I know it doesn’t always work out, but I did leave my job with nothing lined up (a lot of thought went into this, I am a very cautious person), and I am so glad I did. I’m glad I had the space to take a breath from my toxic job so I didn’t feel like I had to take the first thing that came my way. When I was first considering the new job I felt really conflicted about applying for a “lower level” position at a “less prestigious” place, but I knew what I’d need to pay my bills and I knew that I needed to go somewhere that wouldn’t drive me slowly into the ground, and it turned out better than I would have guessed! Granted- I’m not super worried about my career trajectory bc I’m just in this industry to feel somewhat good about making OK money. Thanks to everyone who answered my questions during my trashfire job situation!!

    1. AnonForThis*

      So… about a month ago I quit my job without anything lined up because the environment was so hostile to women that I started having panic attacks all the time and couldn’t sleep and all of that and I was too messed up to job search without quitting. A bit before I turned in my notice, another woman was hired and started getting trained. A coworker, one of the better ones who said he was aware of his biases and trying to overcome them (and who I’m still sort of friendly with) became her main trainer. He asked me for a second opinion sometimes because he was worried he was judging her too harshly or so on. I sort of gently pushed back because I did think he was being too quick to jump to conclusions/coming across as mansplaining a bit. For example, he asked her if she was familiar with a certain kind of teapot handle. She said yes. But he thought she didn’t say it confidently enough, or she just didn’t “seem” to understand it, so then he explained it to her anyways. Then she asked a question that showed that she didn’t quite get how we made the handles differently from how other companies made the handles (from the questions she was asking) but he took this to mean she still must not understand the concept at all and he told me he didn’t get why she was “lying” about understanding more than she actually did. I thought this was a big, scary jump to assume that she would be lying about her knowledge (especially since before this job she had been a very successful milk pitcher maker, which uses the same concepts, just in different ways). So I said I didn’t think she was lying, just that she might think she understands but doesn’t (particularly because she might not know that we have slightly different understandings of the same mechanisms because we work on teapots – different definitions for the same words). Then, when I did finally observe them working together, I could see that she felt he was being condescending. But the way she was reacting to it was not time-efficient and was maybe a bit unprofessional. If he said something condescending to her, she would find something she could explain to him about milk pitchers, and then spend 15 minutes lecturing him in turn about milk pitchers (to give him a taste of his own medicine? to show that she was knowledgeable too?). But obviously to him this was just coming across as somewhat belligerent/arrogant and making it take sooo much longer to train her.

      But again I could see that she was also probably acting this way because she already felt really insecure because of the environment there, that she was already being affected by the same harassment/bullying from others in the workplace that I had experienced, and that she seemed to have some anxiety issues making the harassment/bullying even worse for her.

      Now, before I left I did report several incidents of harassment. But there were also people I couldn’t report because I need them for references/felt it wasn’t worth it when I didn’t have witnesses I could count on for those incidents. Still, I hoped this would be enough for an investigation to be done and maybe some of the worst offenders removed and some re-training to happen for everyone.

      HR met with me right when I turned in my two-weeks notice, so I was there for another two weeks after reporting this harassment. And that’s when this coworker who was training the new hire started to make weirdly gendered comments about like, women’s eating habits or whatever that I could also see made the new hire feel unwelcome, that he had never made before to me. But I didn’t go back to HR because I was just trying to make it through the last two weeks and move on and I was already in such a bad head space that when I had had to go over incidents again in detail for HR it brought everything up and then I went home and cried for hours, etc.

      But recently I heard from someone else at that job that my former boss is now thinking of firing this new hire based on her being defensive and taking too long to train and maybe other judgement from my coworker who is definitely a bit biased. Now I’m wondering, should I say more? Was I too gentle with my coworker who was training her before? Should I say to my coworker who was training her, since he did ask me to tell him if I thought he was not being fair, “To be clear, you are condescending to her sometimes, you’ve made gendered comments that I could see had an effect on her, and she is not responding to this in a professional way but that is what’s making her act this way?” Or should I say to her directly (I also have her contact info), “By the way, this office is horribly sexist, but if you want to stay, you will have to play their game a bit to succeed and either just ignore it or go to HR?” Or do I leave it alone and hope I reported enough and try to move on… because I know it’s really unhealthy for me to be dwelling on this?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’m relieved to hear that the new job is so much better! Glad to hear you landed somewhere sane. :-)

  42. Long term plans*

    Something that I have been thinking about this week. . .

    What career changes would you consider not worthwhile to pursue later in your career? I am thinking mid-career, perhaps the 35-45 age range.

    Some career pundits would say nothing falls into that. Even if you are 40 and becoming a doctor would take 10 years, you could practice for 20 years, retire at 70, and you had 20 years to pursue your “passion”.

    But, some things may sound nice in discussion but would practically be very challenging to get hired into at an older age. What are these things?

    Some days I can’t imagine being in my field 20-30 more years, 1.) because technology will make a lot of my hard skill experience irrelevant, and 2.) I will be tired of it. But most days, I don’t have energy to do much more than plug along with what I am doing.

    1. Spreadsheets and Books*

      Honestly, I think your example is something 100% not to do. Medicine is awful. It’s horribly time consuming, requires insane hours that put a lot of stress on the body, and entails like $300,000 in loans in the U.S. – and then earning pennies as a resident without being able to make a dent in the principal. Getting into med school will likely require a move, and then maybe again for residency because the match isn’t like applying to normal jobs. Any residencies tend to be biased against old applicants because they’re perceived as physically less able to handle the demands, whether correctly or incorrectly, so getting a good position can be a struggle. For anyone over around 35, it’s more than likely super not worth it, and even then, it’s questionable.

      I’d say any switch with a relatively short time commitment (1-3 year masters, for example) and any kind of cross-over whatsoever with a current field can be worth considering.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I know someone who became a Physician’s Assistant, and her program was much less arduous than the medical school/residency gauntlet. So that might be an option for someone who later in life wanted to get into medicine.

        1. Long term plans*

          I also think it’s not a completely unusual thing to do later in life (this or nurse practitioner for the RNs), so you don’t stand out in a negative way when trying to get hired.

      2. Long term plans*

        Yeah, I agree the MD isn’t likely worth it. I had seriously considered it half-a-career ago and did all the post bacc I needed expect Org. Chem, then just decided, nope, for a plethora of reasons. This isn’t intended to be all about me, but I think for it to be truly “worth it” for that time and expense, you would have to have extremely unique personal circumstances.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Ouch, people! I started Med school at 42. You do have to think about the challenges, but it’s not insane. I think to make a big change in mid career you have to find something you can’t stand not doing, much more than just being uncertain about what you’re doing now.

      3. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        Where is this coming from? Medicine is highly respected, high paid, and many, many doctors have easy hours. 8am-4pm M-F. Don’t want loans? Simple. Agree to work in a rural, underserved area and your loans are paid for. (Or the military).

    2. akaDaisy*

      I went back to school last year at 40 to complete my degree, and opted to change my focus to financial planning. It’s a growing career field and something I feel is important, not to mention something I can do either as a job or as an entrepreneur. The coursework is also easily translated to skills needed for other industries and positions (ie accounting, data analysis, coaching and counseling).

      1. Long term plans*

        Ooo, that is a good one. I actually know a few people who went into it a little later, too. Age is probably a plus because no one over 22 really wants retirement advice from a 22 year old.

    3. All monkeys are French*

      A couple of years ago I explored a huge career shift into something science-based. I have a liberal arts degree with no significant science background, so I took a couple of classes at the local university to bone up. A couple of the classes and teachers were good, but one was totally mind-numbing and I realized I wasn’t enthusiastic enough about the new direction to slog through all the introductory stuff.
      I want to stretch myself and improve my skills, but not that much, I guess.

      1. Long term plans*

        At least you know.

        That was similar to how it went for me when I did the post-bacc premed courses. Turns out, I don’t really like biology or chemistry much. I still like to read medical-type stuff at a hobby level, but I didn’t like memorizing all the basic stuff that one must know and I didn’t like the labs at all. It was a different perspective than when I took the non-major courses in undergrad. When you realize you don’t have to do something, you can think a lot more about if you like it and want to do it.

    4. Grapey*

      “because technology will make a lot of my hard skill experience irrelevant”

      Changing systems often requires a lot of people from “the old guard” be around to help troubleshoot changes and give requirements. I’d look into how new technology would do your job and learn it so you can make it better.

    5. Clever Name*

      Hm, well, I say do what you want. I remember my first boss. He had a long career with the Air Force. Retired as a colonel, I’d say in his mid-50s. After he retired, he decided to get his Ph.D, and he did. He launched a new career based on that that lasted at least 15 years. And I say why not?

    6. dust rabbit*

      I know someone who went to law school in their late 50’s. They would say it was worth it because they enjoy being a lawyer, even if they don’t make a huge amount of money. Being a lawyer added to their quality of life. It’s not all about money.

  43. Shelly*

    I finally bit the bullet this week and talked to two employees who kept talking about medical stuff in way too much detail. They both responded fine and I’m hoping it’s resolved so I don’t have to correct them again. They’re both new to our office in the last two months, but their experience was in similar settings, so I’m a little surprised that we had to talk about it at all.

  44. Weblady*

    Holiday Party Ideas Needed! I’m planning the holiday lunch for our group of 150- any fun game or craft ideas that were fun at a party you attended? It’s daytime in a private room, no alcohol. Oh, and can’t be too Christmas themed for inclusion purposes. Any help is appreciated, thanks!!

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      I always hate all team building events, but there is one fun part of it for me: building random stuff out of straws, cups, paper, etc. Building a bridge that has to hold a water bottle, or the highest tower, or whatever, those are great. :D

      If you have budget for things that aren’t office supplies, getting a ton of legos for a building competition would be my dream at boring team building events.

    2. bananaboat*

      some good old fashioned party games. Maybe a board game corner.
      Craft wise I saw a cute thing on PsImadethis for a DIY hot choclate bar and then you can make like marshamallow snowmen. Edible crafts are the best crafts!

      1. Jamie*

        Co-sign this. I am not big on this kind of thing but I’ll play Scrabble with anyone, anywhere…and marshmallows are made of happiness.

      2. Dusty Bunny*

        Yes! Edible crafts! Decorate sugar cookies, skewer marshmallows on a candy cane or lollipop stick then dip in melted chocolate/sprinkles for hot cocoa stirrers. And a hot chocolate bar so I can make and drink my own concoction? Winner!

      3. DrTheLiz*

        If you do board games, NOT MONOPOLY!! It’s objectively a badly built board game and it makes people angry. I’d also advise against Risk, for similar reasons.

    3. BlueWolf*

      My family once did Minute To Win It games for a family gathering. I’m sure you can look them up online. Most of them use normal household products and such and you can do teams.

      1. whistle*

        Yes, I have been to Minute to Win It parties and they have always been fun! I like it because it can be fun to be a spectator, so you don’t have to participate if you don’t want to. My husband successfully did “Don’t blow the joker” and we still talk about it 10 years later.

    4. Parenthetically*

      Make. The activities. OPTIONAL. For the love of everything good and holy in this world, make the activities optional! Set up board games in one corner and a cute DIY ornament/decor thing in another corner! Invite people to bring a handicraft from home. Recruit your resident tabletop game/D&D nerds to come lead a mini-campaign and bring some fun props/costumes! If there are structured or team-type events (karaoke, Pictionary, scavenger hunts), let people SIGN UP for things that sound fun to them.

      The thing I like to do at gatherings like this is CHAT, preferably with a hot drink in my hands (love the idea of a hot cocoa bar!). I hate being interrupted for the Compulsory Fun portion of the party.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Not to mention the party itself. Optional. Please please please!

        And yes, please don’t have something that focuses on Christianity (or even “Judeo-Christianity”).

        1. machinations and palindromes*

          If I could remove one phrase from the world and have everyone forget it ever existed, it would be Judeo-Christianity.

    5. Granger Chase*

      I agree with the idea of a hot drink bar!

      If you have members of your group that would enjoy volunteering, braided fleece dog toys or fleece tie blankets are relatively easy to make and make a great donation to a local animal shelter (which is one of the most secular charities I can think of).

      I have also made snowmen out of small plant pots. You flip it upside down and can paint it white, then put little decorations on it. They can look more cutesy or grownup depending on how people design them. But I think snowmen are more winter themed than Christmas, although others may feel differently. I always think of Calvin & Hobbes first when I think of snowmen…

      1. Mellow*

        I love the idea of making something that can be donated to an animal shelter! Taking that idea to my party planning team at work tomorrow.

  45. Quill*

    So, good news of the week:

    – Spoke to my boss abut my 6 month review, she says I’m doing good and that she’ll be on the lookout for longer term positions for me (I was frank about wanting stability – i.e. health insurance! – being the main driving force for my career decisions right now.)
    – I am slowly beating my project filled with macros into shape.

      1. Quill*

        The company I work for is in pharma and… if I can get on their insurance I can probably get my new orthodics before the current ones I have (optimal replacement time is about 2-3 years, they’ll definitely be worn out by some point in year 4…) crap out.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Whyyyyy is it so rare to have good orthotics coverage? I’ve never had an insurer with particularly good coverage for that, and none of my work-offered plans are at all helpful in my current job. I promise it will save the insurance company money if it doesn’t hurt for me to walk, because it’ll make me walk more and that will keep me in better health than if my feet hurt and I’m constantly looking to sit down. Seems so shortsighted that they won’t pay for them.

          1. Quill*

            Same reason they’ve yanked me around on what a “month’s” supply of birth control pills, I suspect (only one month has 28 days, people!) : because they can

  46. Webinar fail*

    I hate webinars. I find it impossible to listen and learn to these things. It makes no difference the topic, speaker, expertise. I just hate them. As part of my job I am expected to watch them on my own. If there is a test, I learn for the test but that’s it.
    Strategies? Suck it up?
    Irony. I have to present one that is going out nationally in a few weeks.

    1. bananaboat*

      I’m not good on those either. I find note taking the best way to concentrate but also that way you can have a quick doodle if you need. Write down any questions you may have etc

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, note taking is the only thing that works for me. It forces me to pay attention. Otherwise, especially if it’s droningly boring, I space out and miss stuff.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      What do you mean that you are expected to watch them on your own? Do they cover new processes, systems, tools, or other things that you need to learn for your job? Or is it more of a you are expected to go out and learn new things more broadly, but the specific topic doesn’t matter?

      If it’s the first one, can you watch it together with some of your colleagues and have a brief discussion after to make sure you understand what you were supposed to get out of it? If it’s the second, how expected is actually expected? Anyway you can find another way to show you are participating in professional development?

      Other general ideas:
      – Pretend like you’re having a conversation with the presenter. “You did it that way, but that might not work for our organization because of X and Y reasons, but maybe we could modify it instead” or “I have questions about this particular aspect of the program”
      – Take notes or draw pictures
      – Leave the webinar if you aren’t getting anything out of it

    3. Webinar fail*

      Most of the time they are something I am interested or suggested by my supervisor. None are essential to my position but it seems like knowledge I should have. Project management, designing accessible on-line courses, It might be me. I hate video lectures and on-line courses. I would much rather read twenty books than spend an hour in front of screen listening/watching a power point.

      Any suggestions for “best practices” for my own hour long one?

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        As someone who’s had to listen to a number of these over the years, I’m going to suggest you consider the following ways to keep your audience engaged. You certainly don’t have to use all of these in every webinar, I’m just trying to give you some ideas for how to keep your listeners from falling asleep during your presentation.
        During the webinar, you could:
        1. Conduct periodic polling surveys (or voting). For example, you could use survey at the beginning of the webinar to determine the experience level of prior topic knowledge your audience has. Or you could poll to find out where your audience stands on a particularly controversial topic sub-area (if applicable).
        2. Enable a real-time typewritten chat capability during the webinar. Ideally, you would have a colleague with you who could monitor the intake and screen some of the questions for you to address verbally during the webinar.
        3. Be sure to copy/paste URL links to any important online material (e.g., other commercial videos, free instructional materials) mentioned during the webinar. Most chat capabilities have some kind of Notes field to convey this to the audience. I will often copy and paste the posted link into another tab in my browser during the webinar, then go back afterward to read it more closely.

    5. No Name Yet*

      I do best when I knit during them – keeps enough of my brain from wandering off (or checking email, writing notes) that I pay better attention.

      In terms of doing your own, when I was part of one, I worked hard to keep my voice bright and engaging, hopefully less likely for people to tune me out. Also, we mixed up the presentation – had different people talk, switched between lecturing, quizzes, and example videos.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I agree. For me, it’s because a lot of webinar presenters are experts on their subject but not great public speakers (repeated “um” “well” “ok”, minor vocal tics or throat clearing, too many pauses, no pauses, going off on tangents), which is difficult to follow when I’m not participating in a conversation. I end up frustrated that they are taking too long to give me the bullet points that I actually need and wish it was reading material rather than webinar.

  47. Jamie*

    Today is a good day.

    I moved into my own office this week, I once again have three monitors as God intended, my white board is up, and I’m working on a few multi-part IT projects.

    I’m not the IT here but my role is shifting due to my background to do some of the big stuff inhouse rather than outsource it.

    Idk if it will last, but this week I feel like I’m home for the first time in a long time.

    1. bananaboat*

      Thats fantastic congrats! I loved having an office althoguh when I was IT I only had a laptop ! Lucky you on the three screens!

    2. blood orange*

      Woohoo!
      Just curious, what do you use your third monitor for? I’ve gotten used to dual monitors but I’m not sure what I’d do with a third one.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        I have 2 large ones and use my laptop as the third. I do ERP consulting, so one big monitor is usually logged into a test instance, and the other one usually has a file open with a project document of some sort, like test scripts or a design doc. Then the third one is for email and instant messaging.

      2. Jamie*

        Right now I’m testing two versions of an ERP on two different servers, so each remote session has it’s own and the third for email, the testing documentation/checklist, and (shhhhh) AAM.

      3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I have my laptop open for one monitor, a vertical monitor with my calendar on it agenda-style (also useful for reference material) and then a regular horizontal monitor as well. It looks odd, but it works well for me to be able to see my day at a glance like that all the time.

    3. Quill*

      I was going to set up my 3rd monitor, but it’s at an inconvenient angle to my laptop station and I’m using it as my postit board anyway…

    4. Ann Furthermore*

      I started a new job in February of this year which is all remote, with just a little bit of travel. Working from home is every bit as glorious as I ever dreamed it would be. I have 2 big monitors, and also keep my laptop open to have a third. It is hard when I travel though, and only have my laptop. No one has invented a monitor that you can fold up and put into your carry-on bag yet. Have they?

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Portable external monitors are a thing! They aren’t even that expensive. I’ve been debating buying one myself.

  48. bananaboat*

    So I got headhunted for an awesome role. Noice! I had a meeting about it Double noice! and then they tiold me they weren’t sure I had enough experience so they wanted me to volunteer for the role UNPAID and then I could talk about salary at some point. Needless to say I noped away from that very quickly
    but seriously why!

    4. irene adler*

      Amazing the gall some folks have thinking that, sure!, you’d be glad to give up making your livelihood just to volunteer for them.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Is this a professional company? That is bizarre, but at least they let you know they were crazy up front.

    6. Clever Name*

      Excuse me? By headhunted, I assume that means that you currently have a (paid) job and they want you to leave that for an unpaid maybe you’ll get paid later gig. I hope you told them they are out of their minds.

  49. pecan pie*

    A coworker and I were given a new responsibility. Think like, we’re both in charge of pie-making. However, it was made clear that I was to be in charge of making the filling and she was in charge of making the crust and baking it. We were trained at the same time for both tasks so that we could take over for the other if they were out of the office. It’s been 4 months and she is constantly asking me questions that we went over in training. I repeat the same information and have told her to write it down but she is making mistakes and we both take the fall for it.

    I don’t hate her and I don’t want to cause her any grief, but I’m super tired of this situation. Any advice?

    1. E*

      One option would be to write up the process notes and provide them to her, then tell her to reference the notes when she asks you for help. Other option is to bring this up with your supervisor, that you are having to stop what you’re doing to instruct coworker (and that she’s still making mistakes, which should be on her not you unless you’re both supposed to check each other’s work).

    2. Parenthetically*

      “she is making mistakes and we both take the fall for it”

      I mean, this shouldn’t be happening if you’re clearly responsible for separate elements. If she’s screwing up the crust and your filling is perfect, you shouldn’t get dinged. You can absolutely talk to her and say, “It’s vital that you get these processes down, since mistakes reflect on both of us; I’m willing to do X and Y to help you, but just continuing as we are isn’t going to work.”

      You also, IMO, after you have that conversation, NEED to go to the people above you and say, “Hey, I just need to know what to do here. If you’ll look at the bakery reports, in the last 12 dozen pies the filling has been at or above standard 97% of the time, but there have been major structural failures in the crust on 40% of the pies. It was made clear to me when Brenda and I were given this assignment that I’m on fillings and Brenda is on crusts, but since technically it’s BOTH our job to make pies, when there’s a failing in any part of the pie, it reflects poorly on BOTH of us even when my component of the job didn’t fail. Given that the crusts are clearly the issue, how do you want me to approach this? Is there another way to divide the duties, or another way to assess our work? I don’t want the whole process to reflect poorly on my performance when my portion of the task was done to standard.”

    3. Autumnheart*

      I’d go to your manager and let them know that Coworker is still asking you questions that were covered in training and is continually messing up despite your repeated instructions.

      In the meantime, redo the work so that it’s correct before it’s sent out. And document each time you have to do it. It should be clear to your manager that you’re having to redo Coworker’s work and that she isn’t performing up to par, but as unfair as it is, if you’re being held responsible for the outcome, you should take it on yourself to CYA.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        I’d like to heartily second the suggestion on documentation. Documenting not only *that* you’re re-doing her work, but also documenting how many minutes/hours it’s taking you to re-do the work each time will be essential to helping your manager understand the extent of the problem. You might even multiply that number by your hourly wage, to make it even clearer what these corrections are actually costing the company. With any luck, your supervisor will see the concrete figures and concludes that s/he needs to start managing your colleague more closely. Please write again and let us know what you decided to do. Best of luck.

  50. Triumphant Fox*

    I’m a pretty new manager and I’m struggling to manage my team effectively. It’s been an awkward transition from me being a very high performing producer to doing that and managing my team that was very loosely managed (as in barely managed) while I was a member. Now I finally have hired a few people to take over some of my key duties so I can actually manage work instead of doing everything myself, but now I’m not sure how to start really managing the team now that I have more bandwidth. I don’t know how to say “Ok, so I’ve let things slide for a while, but now that we have the resources, I’m able to actually pay attention to what you’re doing, and not just care if all of my essential boxes are checked.”

    It’s not that my team hasn’t been doing work – everything has gotten done and the volume of work we’ve been doing is way past what this department used to do, but I know that a couple team members don’t have enough work and generally work slowly/listlessly. I also know we could be doing more if things were better streamlined.

    Any advice helps.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t know that it’s requisite that you say it–you can just do it–but you can also say in your 1-1s that now the team has expanded expectations will be higher for everybody’s performance, so you’ll do some focusing on that.

      1. Triumphant Fox*

        That’s a good idea. The latest new member has now settled in and is performing well, so that could be a good way to do it. Thanks for the thoughts!

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      Why not have either individual or a team meeting to see what everyone things are working well/sore points/etc and then incorporate that feedback into some changes moving forward? That way your team will feel like you’re also listening to them and you can roll out some changes that address their concerns while also streamlining things moving forward.

      1. Triumphant Fox*

        So true! We don’t have a habit of frequent 1-1 meetings, which is really the first thing I need to change. I’ve relied to much on our weekly teem meetings to cover everything, which ends up just being a checklist for the week.

        That’s a good start.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      What do you mean by “managing effectively”? You don’t have to make changes for the sake of making changes.

      Consider, if you haven’t already, taking some time to…
      1) Ask your direct reports about their professional goals and how they would like to grow.
      2) Rebalance work and/or find new work for your underutilized employees; this could tie into 1, if a high performer wants to grow into a llama bathing specialty, then could you take some of the llama nail trimming off of their plate and give it to the underutilized team member?
      3) Agree with the previous commenters, make it clear that standards are being raised *and* be clear what that looks like. Set specific goals for each team member and the overall team, with a plan of action on what they will need to do and what you will provide.

      1. Triumphant Fox*

        These are super helpful; those three points are along the lines of what I’m thinking I need to do.

    4. IT Manager*

      At one point, my team was so overworked that a lot of stuff started to slide. When that period ended and we started to recover, the stuff didn’t get picked back up even when I asked individuals so I set up a staff meeting, walked through what my expectations were and said “I’m doing this as a group so everyone is on the same page. As we adjust, I’ll follow up in 1 on 1s if I see anything I think needs attention”. That was effective in resetting the situation for the group and encouraging them to hold each other accountable (we are in IT so it was stuff like clear documentation, cross-training, and double QA) and then I could also address it in the context of “we talked about how this no longer flies”.

  51. New Freelancer*

    I’ve just transitioned to freelancing and find it a little alarming how much time I can spend getting nothing done. Time management has always been my Achilles heel. Any good books or other good suggestions?

    I have a number of unavoidable appointments that take up some chunks of the day and then the work generally requires chunks of time at least an hour long (ideally longer blocks). I find that if I miss getting started as soon as I’d planned, I feel a sense of fatality like “there’s no point in starting it now, there isn’t enough time.”

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Have you looked in to the Pomodoro method?

      Also, for the “there’s no point starting now” mindset, have you tried responding with, “I’ll just work on it for 15 minutes, then.”

    2. Autumnheart*

      This is one of my management tools for ADHD, but I recommend breaking down tasks into small chunks. For example, instead of “Do Project XYZ”, break it down to “Assemble outline for Project XYZ” “Create index of required materials” “Create KANBAN board”, and so forth. If it feels too overwhelming to Do Project XYZ, then you can at least start with the outline and the index and make incremental progress.

      I like this method because it makes me feel more productive, and helps me keep track of where I am in a given project.

  52. Makes Homer something something*

    In my department there is a habit of joking about suicide and it drives me batty, and makes me feel bad for anyone for whom that might be a trigger if they have to hear it. Things like, (at the beginning of a meeting, the dept. head saying) “I know we’re all ready to slit our wrists, but how is everyone’s workload?” and (a co-worker, after dealing with a stressful situation) “sometimes I think I should just shoot myself in the head,” and variations of that.

    I’m not sure if I’m looking for advice because I already feel somewhat of an outcast in this department and this is not the hill I want to die on, but it seems like it should be obvious not to say things like this in a professional context.
    Maybe I’m just oversensitive but man it irks me. Thanks, fellow readers, for letting me get it off my chest. Love this column so much!

      1. Commuter*

        This is absolutely not normal. I could imagine someone saying it but at work? Especially when these are real situations people could be experiencing or have experienced.

    2. Rainy_Day*

      You’re not being oversensitive! I find it really offensive and disrespectful that they’re saying those things. It could be hurtful to anyone who’s been suicidal or who has loved ones who are suicidal. Even if no one like that is in the office, it’s a serious thing they shouldn’t be joking about, and “slit our wrists” or “shoot myself in the head” are pretty morbid and violent things to say. Sorry you have to listen to them!

    3. merp*

      Echoing Rainy_Day here. I wouldn’t like hearing that so often at all. Even if no one in the office struggles with suicidal thoughts, or knows someone who does, even if it’s just thoughtless phrasing that means nothing, it’s just violent imagery that I don’t want in my head at work (or ever, really). In my experience, it also seems to spread – the more things like that are said, the more they are the phrases that come to mind for others. I removed all those from my vocab a long time ago and I’m sorry that you’re exposed to it so often.

    4. Quill*

      That’s… not healthy and probably not normal. TBH, it sounds like your workplace is full of my emo freshman classmates from 2007, several of whom were doing it to be *edgy* and others of whom meant it and didn’t get help at the time because of all the edgelords.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I don’t know if you feel like you can speak up, but if you did, what about “Hey, can we pick another metaphor, one not including bodily harm?” I think in a light tone, it wouldn’t come across like you’re overly sensitive. The risk is, if the dept’s sense of humor is fairly dark, they might take that suggestion as a challenge to find another ugly metaphor instead of something neutral.

      I don’t think it’s normal to hear those kinds of comments, personally, and I would probably be frustrated by it too.

    6. Kiwiii*

      Graphic descriptions like that are not normal or okay in a workplace. I was cringing away just reading them. Maybe see if you can loop HR in, because they could be huge triggers for people.

  53. RussianInTexas*

    Accounting department rants.
    Background: we are a small, family owned company (que the Imperial March). Our accounting department, which is both A/P and A/R (I am a customer rep) are three people, none of them are actually accountants but either been doing this forever (retirement age woman, who is related to the owners in some way), new guy who is being trained, young kid, who is someone’s son and who was put on invoicing as a favor. None of them speaks decent English, so they never even call customers’ A/Ps, customer reps have to do it and boy, do we not relish this (given that I have my own accent insecurities, it’s really not fun for me either). They also do not read e-mails. Like, e-mails go in to a black hole.
    Rant 1: Last week I am copied on an e-mail to a customer of mine. Large customer always pays on time. Strongly worded e-mail from my A/R “Serious Past Due notice – invoice unpaid”. Customer replies: oh, I am so sorry, did not see the original invoice coming through, will pay next week on Friday when we pay all vendors.
    Yesterday (so, before the Friday the invoice was promised to be paid) I am copied on another e-mail “Serious Past Due notice – 2nd past due notice”. Cue in highly irritated phone call from the customer to ME.
    Rant 2: on the very first Monday of September, a coworker sends the invoice to A/P to pay for an annual certification, which is crucial to a large part of our business. $3000. We pay it annually. It is not a new thing. The e-mail goes in to the black hole. Coworker sends a reminder. Copies our manager. Manager: you know how they are, keep reminding them, etc. So he does couple more times, things get hectic, he forgets, since it’s not his job.
    Yesterday, 2 months later, coworker notices that the certification have not been paid yet. He contacts the A/P. A/P’s response – what is this? Coworker: this is the annual certification for ***. A/P: OK, but what is this for? Coworker: for annual certification for ***, see the previous e-mails and documentations. A/P: I don’t know what this is, can you please have the account manager to approve. Coworker: this isn’t…nevermind.
    So he goes to the CFO, the certification is paid in a minute.
    Then he gets an e-mail from A/P: I will look in to it, will let you know if we can pay it tomorrow.
    Headdesk. SO MUCH HEADDESK.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Sounds like my parent company’s AP department…also have that black hole issue. AP receives an invoice and if they don’t know exactly where it goes they put it in a “not my problem” pile. An AP manager will go through it about every 6 weeks or so and attempt to find out where things are supposed to go but mostly they just wait until an irate vendor contacts their rep asking why the invoice hasn’t been paid and deal with it then. 30+ days later the vendor calls up again because they still haven’t been paid and the AP person says we have 45 day payment terms…on an invoice dated 5 months ago. They set it to pay 45 days after it was entered into the system instead of 45 days from date of invoice.
      Meanwhile they are trying to centralize AP functions for all companies over there “because its more efficient”.
      Nope nope nope nope

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I have only ever worked in large corporations before and a lot of these things were automated and pre-approved. At least all necessary certifications and licenses. Some of them are rather crucial to pay on time, lapsing can be really problematic.
        Oh. And they make customer reps do the collection work (good thing I only have one non-paying customer right now).

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This sounds like my utter hell of dealing with certain accounting departments.

      And nothing bothers me more than inability to speak directly with AP/AR and being rerouted through buyers or some kind of CSR setup, who then has to be a 3rd party in between.

      You don’t need to be on the phone even, use email, I prefer email.

      I feel for you. At least I have power on my side. I’ve flagged accounts and will remove terms if they want to play games and let their AP team hideaway. And I do feel bad for the buyers a lot of times, I know they’re innocent and also victims of their company structure.

      Then again, I had someone lock our account after a decade of being like clockwork. We pay everything at least a week ahead of time in most cases. And so one of the checks got lost in the mail, nobody sent a statement, yeah I should have probably seen that it wasn’t cashed yet but it would have pinged on my radar the next month. So I get a strongly worded “We cannot send you more product, you’re past due from three months ago!” Traced the check, nope didn’t get there, stop payment etc. We had to wire transfer them money so that we could get our product. No leeway allowed was super weird to me, so that was fun.

      Past-due notices when I’m not past due and it’s an allocation issue on their end is also a fun game to play…

      1. RussianInTexas*

        We normally give leeway, since we are a small company, and can’t have too many people get mat at us.
        But I have one customer who is always, ALWAYS late. I have to have an approval from accounting every time his order comes in. And we meet him half-way! We agree to cash the check “tomorrow, when I have the funds”. We give him away over his NET 30. And yet, when his $70k check bounced, and the company owner had to call him up on it, the reply was “well, if you need the money SO MUCH that one (lol) bounced check is a problem, may be your business is not doing great!”.
        He is officially on hold as of this morning. I feel like celebrating. Only took 3 years of shady behavior.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I had someone say “I cannot believe I got put on hold for X amount, it’s only X amount!”

          And my response was “Yeah, the amount is irrelevant. You owe us money and you haven’t paid us.” Or in this case “You bounced the check, not me. We aren’t in the business of giving things to people.”

          Someone got super mad at me when I questioned their ethics with trying to act like not being paid was my fault…and my response again was “Yeah, putting it back on me, still not the ethical choice, dude.” If smoke from his ears could have come through the telephone, I’d have been coughing.

          No matter how small you are, you should never be held hostage by people who are flakes at paying their bills. I have yanked credit terms from various people who have screwed my bosses over over the years. I don’t accept the gaslighting that some financially drowning individuals try.

          I had someone bounce a $35 check years ago. Yeah no, I’ll be fine without your rubber checks! Those things cost money in banking fees, so I’m not just giving you freebie stuff, I’m paying the bank to give you free shht!

    3. noahwynn*

      The last company I worked for was like this. We had two bookkeepers, they were definitely not trained accountants, and A/P was always messed up. We had bills we paid every single month that they would claim they had never seen before and demand to know what they are for. “The AT&T bill is for the office phones and internet, like it has been for the last 5+ years,” was an email I legitimately sent once.

      I ended up defaulting to paying as much as possible with my company credit card. Then they started losing receipts, so I would scan/email them so there was a paper trail that I turned them in.

      The final straw was actually my last month there when I wasn’t dealing with anyone’s BS anymore. They replied asking what huge safety certification was for. I replied with an answer and that we paid it every year. They replied back asking how to code it. I replied that I didn’t know, but if they looked at the vendor in Quickbooks it should be easy to figure out since we pay it every year. They replied back that they didn’t have time to do that, and I replied, CCing my boss, that they could shove it into whatever account they wanted to and I didn’t care.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This gives me hives reading about. I’ve cleaned up after people like this before. It’s a nightmare untangling that mess.

        It’s why it’s dangerous not to have someone with an actual accountant background on staff if you’re doing onsite bookkeeping. Yes, it’s hard to find someone but in reality, it saves you a lot of money in the end because we don’t screw up so rapidly and all the time.

        Even if you have thousands of purchases a month, you can still easily track something down by the vendor name and account number ffs. There shouldn’t be that many questions once you’ve been doing the books for a few months.

  54. Rainy_Day*

    When scheduling interviews, would it be okay to ask if there will be forms to fill out or tests to take, and how long their interviews usually are?

    The last interview I went on ended up lasting two and a half hours because they needed me to fill out extensive paperwork and take two written tests, and then I had to wait around for the interviewer. The actual “interview” portion was just them asking me to tell them about the jobs listed on my resume and answering my questions. I had no idea it was going to take that long or that I’d spend the majority of the time filling out forms/taking tests. If I had known I wouldn’t have gone, so I’d like to screen for that sort of thing in the future if I can.

    1. londonedit*

      I think it’s fine. Ahead of most of the interviews I’ve had, the company has sent an email with instructions on time and place, and a brief overview of who I’ll be meeting, who to ask for when I arrive, and how the interview will be structured (‘The interview will consist of approximately 45 minutes of competency-based questions followed by a short editorial test of around 15 minutes’, or whatever). If you’re not getting that, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for a rough guide to the structure/format of the interview process.

    2. Antilles*

      I think you can ask, but I’d frame it under the guise of helping them – “Will there be any paperwork or application forms I need to fill out day of? I would be happy to fill those out ahead of time if it would help.”
      The answer very well might be no, we usually have people fill those out day of…but it’ll likely at least get you some kind of guidance as to whether it’s like 20 minutes of paperwork or 200 minutes of paperwork.

  55. StarHunter*

    So…I have been mostly retired for a couple of years. I was a director at my last org (nonprofit) and have been working short term temp jobs here and there at admin type jobs. However, circumstances might be changing (potential end of partner relationship) and I may need to go back to work full time for health insurance (in the US) and to provide for myself better. If the relationship doesn’t work out I would also move away (possibly cross country to be closer to family and for reasons). Has anyone ever been successful in restarting their career after being retired? Did you do similar work? What did you put on the resume? How did you explain the time-off? I also am approaching 60 so there’s the fear of ageism. I need enough money for rent/bills but my retirement account is sound so I don’t necessarily need to be making a director salary again.

    Hopefully things work out but I trying to be proactive just in case. Thanks for any advice.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      You tried out retirement and it wasn’t for you and you’re so excited to sink your teeth into X.

  56. rip city*

    I would love to get people’s thoughts on how I should interpret this…I supervise a staff member who started with us 6 months ago. He let us know that he was pursuing joining the National Guard on the side; he has been out 4-5 times for half or full days for screenings, being sworn in, etc…just this morning, he let me know that his training was set, and will require a 2 1/2 month LOA. That wasn’t something he’d previously mentioned as a possibility…leaving aside my company’s regulations about that sort of thing (paid LOA vs unpaid, etc), I’m struggling a bit with how to feel about it, and with not taking it personally. It makes me think he may not be as committed to this job, and like he showed a lack of consideration for us by not making us aware of the huge commitment this would take. But am I way off base? I definitely think it’s a great thing to do, but, just practically, it’s going to have a huge impact on our team.

    1. bananaboat*

      Can you sit down and have a discussion with him about it?
      It might be he hadn’t thought of saying anythign because he’s so busy trying to move it forward. Sit down with him be honest about the team and see how it goes

    2. machinations and palindromes*

      I think he might have assumed you knew what was included by being in the National Guard, which is not a great assumption for him to make, but if he’s seeped in the pursuit of it as his goal, he might have forgotten not everyone knows what’s involved.

      I’d go with whatever your company’s regulations are about it and assume you may have to do a bunch of retraining for him when he comes back, after being out for 2.5 months and only being there 6 months so far.

    3. fposte*

      Since it didn’t get mentioned–be aware of USERRA (federal law) here, which protects military, including the National Guard, in employment. Yes, he should have been clearer with his job about the absences (there’s actually a nice pamphlet for the National Guard enrollee with advice on this, which I’ll link to in followup), but I’d make sure you clear with HR anything that you say to him about concerns with his federally protected leave.

    4. Things*

      He probably assumed you knew about the 2 1/2 month training for boot camp. But he did tell you he was pursuing so he didn’t just spring this on you. Id assume he is just young and a little naive when it comes to communication. I wouldn’t take it personally. And as other’s have said, be careful as he is federally protected.

    5. noahwynn*

      I wouldn’t have known about the 2.5 month LOA either. I mean it makes sense when I stop and think about it, but I’ve only ever dealt with people joining the guard who were previously in the military. They were not required to do that but did have to take a lot of the half days and full days off sporadically like you mentioned. Plus a lot were at the last minute.

    6. Anon for this*

      Hi rip city, thanks so much for this question because it hits home for me. I would strongly caution you against interpreting his military commitment and duty as a lack of commitment to his job. My husband is an officer in the National Guard, and he’s also a Big Law attorney. Those aren’t very compatible fields, but he’s highly committed to both his job and serving his country, so his firm supports him when he needs to be gone. Is it a total pain sometimes? Absolutely! There have been many times when missing work for duty has been extremely inconvenient, but it’s something they are fine with because 1) they have to accommodate it under federal law and 2) they value his service.

      Also, once he’s completed his basic training, most of his commitments will occur once a month on the weekends, so these long 2 months stretches out of work are definitely not a common occurrence. Once this leave of absence is over, he’ll seem like every other employee most of the year. He most likely thought by letting you know that he was pursuing joining that he was giving you ample notice, but I can acknowledge that not everyone would know how big of a commitment it is to sign up. Please be patient and understanding during these first few hurdles; it’s a big commitment that he’s also trying to navigate and figure out. I’m sure he’s just as eager as you are for him to focus on his work and be present for his team.

  57. Myka Bering*

    I started a new job this year and it has been going great. The company is large (think fortune 500), but my department is small (about 20 people). They’re friendly and make sure to recognize landmark occasions – everyone gets a birthday cake, wedding shower when one of us got married, and now a coworker is expecting, so I’m assuming a baby shower will be forthcoming.

    My problem is that I can’t do baby showers without crying. I struggled with years of infertility and miscarriages before my female problems escalated enough that I had to have a surgery which effectively ends my chances of ever having a child. I’ve made my peace with it, but showers still push a button that is otherwise turned off most of the time. I tried to attend a gender reveal party last year hoping I’d be okay and ended up having to excuse myself because I was bawling.

    How do I gracefully bow out of a work baby shower without looking like a Grinch? I don’t want to overshare my personal situation. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable to talk about it, but it generally makes others uncomfortable to hear about it, so I don’t want to go there if I can avoid it.

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      If they’re doing it off hours, just say you have another commitment. If they’re during work hours, I’d go to your supervisor and say that, due to personal reasons, you won’t be able to attend the baby shower, and see if you can schedule an unavoidable work conflict at the time, with your boss backing you up.

      1. Clisby*

        I’m not sure why she needs to talk to her supervisor. I agree with the rest of the advice – schedule something else. (I’ve never worked at a job where anyone would have even noticed that a particular person didn’t attend a baby shower, but maybe that was the olden days.)

        1. machinations and palindromes*

          Having supervisor support can help avoid awkward situations (the supervisor can intercede if people get pushy) or the supervisor can invent a work reason she can’t go to the shower.

          1. valentine*

            Send the person en email:
            “I won’t be/wasn’t able to attend, but I wanted to be sure to congratulate you. Glad tidings!”

        2. Myka Bering*

          Absence would be noticed. We’re a small department, sitting together in our own wing of the building in an open configuration. I’d have to get off premises to avoid the shower because it would happen less than 10 feet from my desk.

          This is all hypothetical based off my observations of other milestone celebrations and festivities throughout the year. If/when this happens, I will probably take the “I have a doctor’s appointment” route. I absolutely would not want to involve my manager, who is a busy SVP. She travels so much I only see her 2-3 times a month and has more important things to worry about than “help me find a way out of Jane’s shower.”

            1. Ann Perkins*

              +1 on “I have a doctor’s appointment”. Pitch in a gift or $ for a group gift and you should be good to go. I have a close knit team of 25 and it’s hard to schedule an event when we are all in the office.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I am very sorry you have gone through this. Can you conveniently “have an appointment” at the same time as the bridal shower?

    3. Autumnheart*

      I don’t think you’ll look like a grinch. If you do things like sign the card or throw $5 into the pot for a Target gift card, or whatever people do, that would be fine. You could also do something like lean in the door, say “Congrats, Expecting Person! gotta go” and then go back to your desk. Whatever the least amount you can get away with.

  58. Echo*

    AAM frequently mentions how thank-you notes after an interview should be more substantive and build on the conversation, but can anyone give me an example that makes that concept a little more real for me? The thank you notes I get from the people I interview often include something like “It was great to hear about the llama grooming process and how your team has used the new llama clippers” (actual industry blinded, of course) which is more substantive than just thanking me for their time, but none of these have ever even remotely affected a hiring decision. Have you received a thank-you note that really did make you more likely to hire someone? Have you crafted a thank-you note that you think played a big role in your candidacy?

    1. Quill*

      I treat thank yous like a summary of my cover letter – highlighting what was actually relevant. So if my cover letter said

      “I’m excited for the opportunity to work more on Llama spitting mechanics, llama wool analysis, and llama hoof care than in my previous alpaca grooming role,”

      but they were looking for someone to do exclusively llama hoof care and maybe pinch hit for the other two roles, I’d go with

      “Thank you for taking the time to further explain the demands of your llama hoof care role and the ways it contrasts with alpaca hooves. The clarity you explained it with makes me sure that my previous experience in alpaca hoof trimming will be applicable to this role, and I enjoyed the opportunity to learn more about this aspect of the industry.”

      I think I sent in a thank you note for the position I’m currently in, so maybe that helped, though honestly I think what got me in was the phone based spanish fluency evaluation.

      1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

        I think this is important — you want to demonstrate that you are interested in and well qualified for the role *in light of the better understanding you gained at the interview*.

  59. Cupcake*

    I got the job!
    I wrote in under a couple of alias’ over the last couple of weeks about some wardrobe issues (a laundry incident ruining my suit pants so wearing black pants and black shell with a grey suit jacket since the jacket was tailored and I couldn’t get matching pants or a black jacket tailored in time and then what to wear for a second interview after the hiring manager mentioned the casual dress code several times).
    Well the second interview wasn’t an interview – it was a tour of the facility, a chance for me to ask some follow up questions, and an in person offer. So I initially didn’t think the interview went that well. I have a very strong accounting background and the position is heavy analytics. I do a lot of analytics in my current role but they are not highlights on my resume since A) many are for ad hoc requests and B) the job posting made it seem like accounting was still going to be a significant part of the job. They circled back to “this isn’t really an accounting role” several times so I figured not a good match on their end and was kind of bummed since I want to move away from traditional accounting anyway. Left the interview around 5pm and got a call at 9:30 the next morning. Usually not a good sign in my experience. Nope – they wanted my references, a performance review if a recent supervisor wasn’t possible to talk to, and to schedule a follow up interview.
    So day of the interview, I show up and get the tour then we head to a conference room to chat. HM asks if I have any questions and I do since about half my prepared questions for the previous interview were useless. We talk for about half an hour and after all my questions were answered I ask if he has any others for me. Yes – are you still interest in moving forward in the process. I am interested so say so and he says good because I have an offer I would like to extend.
    They gave me everything I asked for and then some. High end of the salary range I requested ($12k bump from my current salary), matched my current PTO (3 weeks), bonus structure, and an incredible benefit package with a great 401k match, and 2 more paid holidays than I get at current job.
    It was so hard not to accept immediately!
    Gave notice yesterday and my grandboss and great-grandboss haven’t talked to me since and they’ve walked by my desk at least a dozen times. Luckily my boss is an actual adult.

  60. Wednesday's Child*

    I’m looking for some advice on how to give a new hire some guidance on dealing with some personalities. I am not the supervisor of either of these people, but I am in a higher position and will be transitioning/mentoring with the new hire. The new hire (Meg) hasn’t started yet, but when she does there is another person (Dani) who I know will immediately try to be BFFs by being super helpful and kind to Meg. Dani is extremely skilled at getting personal information from folks under the guise of friendships, and then sharing that information with others. This is not overly malicious, but is not always accurate and there is no thought given to the idea that it maybe shouldn’t be shared. For instance, when Dani was having an extremely stressful time and was getting panicky, I mentioned a breathing technique that I used when I was anxious. Dani later told an another coworker that this was a great technique that I learned while being treated for an anxiety disorder. I do not have anxiety–I saw a youtube video on the technique and found it helpful when I was stressed. I know Dani also like to be the center of attention and works to get the scoop on upper-level management decisions so she can spill the tea to the rest of the staff.

    I’m not a fan of being negative/gossipy about people to new hires, because I feel that it sets a bad tone and implies that people don’t have good judgement on their own. But Dani is so insidiously manipulative that you don’t realize it until it’s too late. Any suggestions?

    1. Budgie Buddy*

      Ugh when the best you can say about someone is “not overly malicious.” Like a nice medium amount of malice here.

      If I were the newcomer I’d want a heads up. Is there a neutral way to phrase a warning like, “FYI Dani might come off a bit strong and she can overshare both her own and other people’s stuff. Shut her down nicely if she oversteps Or things get weird.”

    2. Mellow*

      It’s nice that you want to shield a new employee from someone else’s bad behavior, but I think you should let the chips fall where they may. Meg has her own way of dealing with people, and besides, Dani’s behavior sounds like it needs to be reeled in by her own supervisor. That it hasn’t been just isn’t your problem to solve. Plus, if I were Meg and you cautioned me about Dani, I’d find what you had to say to be gossipy, since, at that point, I wouldn’t know Dani from Sansa.
      As Meg’s mentor, just let her know she can discuss anything with you confidentially, including interpersonal dynamics, and leave it at that.

  61. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    I had a job interview at a call center the other day. (Already got a rejection) They asked “describe a time when you worked on a collaborative project” well, in call centers we don’t generally have those. When the time comes for me to ask questions, I go “Regarding the culture here, you asked about collaborative projects. What kind of collaborative projects could a person in this role expect to participate in? ” and they say “Oh, well, there really aren’t any, This is a phone job with no projects.” Which I expected, given that that’s what I APPLIED for. But then what kind of “teamwork/project” answer are they looking for?

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Sounds like some bad interviewing. Here’s a checklist of questions, who cares if they apply to the job!

      It sucks and good luck in the job hunt!

    2. Ewesername*

      Maybe you helped to organize the department holiday party. Or created documents for training new hires. Or collaborated with coworkers to create scripts for difficult phone customers. These are things our managers in the call Centre are looking for when they ask about projects and teamwork.

      1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

        Yes, I have some stock answers for the question. But then when I turn it around, answer with something like “The types of things you described are typical for someone in this role” or “The stuff you did is more normally something done at a higher level”. SOMETHING.

    3. Susan K*

      My guess is that they got the interview questions from a question bank or web site or something and never really thought about relating the questions to the actual job for which they were hiring. It’s almost like the ones who ask, “If you were a tree, what kind of a tree would you be?” because they think it will give them some insight into you as a person even though it has nothing to do with the job or how well you would do it.

  62. Anonforthisone*

    Any tips on managing a narcissist? I’m not one to armchair diagnose but my grandmother is a narcissist so I know of what I speak. The usual approach of feedback/setting expectations does not work with narcissists. And I refuse to get into cycles of soothing him every time there is a conflict after seeing what that did to my mother her whole life. But I don’t want to fire him either. He’s very, very good at all of the technical aspects of his job but working with him is so hard and frankly, his personality is pretty triggering for me and I am finding myself getting more and more resentful of him every day.

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I believe it has been pointed out, an AAM even, that just because someone is good at the technical parts of their job doesn’t make them a good employee. If the dude can’t take constructive feedback, that’s a serious problem.

    2. fposte*

      Does he interact with anybody other than you? How do you think he’s affecting them? It’s possible he’s costing you a lot more than you’re realizing.

    3. Anonforthisone*

      He’s very good at walking the line and complying with the letter of all behavioral expectations if that makes sense. Hard to explain unless you know many narcissists but he’s surface-level charming and uber professional. Higher-level managers and clients tend to really like him. Peers absolutely can’t stand him but his job is pretty independent and requires very little interaction with them. Longer-term (6-9 months) I absolutely plan on moving him out but in the short term that is tricky for a bunch of reasons that basically boil down to having bigger fish to fry right now and he’s necessarily lower on my priority list. For the next 6 months or so I need to just minimize impact and not lose my mind in the process.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I think you should stick to your standard way of providing feedback and setting expectations. Just because you recognize his behavior in some ways doesn’t mean you have to accommodate it to the extent that it lets him keep being an unpleasant report/coworker. I’m sure that’s way easier said than done if you’re already at wits’ end dealing with him! But if his peers also clearly can’t stand him even when they don’t have to regularly work with him, he’s toxic to the group. You may be at jerk-eating-crackers level with him but that doesn’t mean he’s not a jerk that needs to be dealt with.

        If he doesn’t respond well to your feedback etc (assuming this means things like blowing off your comments, not changing to meet expectations, sulking/throwing a tantrum), that’s on him and not you. In fact, if he doesn’t respond well in those documentable ways, then you might have the option to put him on a PIP. That might be better anyway, because he’d be moving to a new situation with a paper trail indicating that he has pre-existing issues with X and Y, so those don’t come as a surprise to his new management. Or, if it’s bad enough, he’ll just be moved out of the company altogether.

        1. Wishing You Well*

          Yup, I agree with starting a paper trail/PIP now. Some companies take months to get a person out this way.

        2. voyager1*

          If you are planning to can him in the next year, I would just try to avoid dealing with him.

          I would expect him to gaslight and not go easily when you fire him though.

          That being said if he is this triggering for you, you might consider talking to a professional. I say that as someone who has had to deal with a few narcissists sadly.

          1. Anonforthisone*

            Thank you for the advice and commiseration. I am pretty much going back to therapy because of him. lol.

            I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he tried to sue us when he gets let go eventually. I’m certain when I do go the PIP route he’ll lash out and file a complaint about me or something so I’m just focusing on being totally professional and unemotional about it in his presence and not bad-mouthing him to anyone even though I feel like my blood pressure goes up every time he’s in the room. I’m confident my boss will back me up when it comes down to it. So maybe just focusing on documenting where I can and taking over some of the work that is most likely to cause him to interact with others is the path for now? I don’t think I have the energy for a PIP until I can deal with some of the more urgent performance issues on my team (I inherited a mess). I honestly can’t even think of specific enough things to put in it because he’s so good at walking the line and manipulating everyone. If I can just focus on getting all of my ducks in a row I guess I can tolerate him for now.

  63. Judddddddy*

    I just want to say THANK YOU to whomever gave the advice about interviewing last week. Someone said that if you don’t know what to give for an example right away, you can start in the hypothetical or broad sense, and then when you have an example, tie that in. That has helped me TREMENDOUSLY and I can’t thank you enough!!!!!! =D

  64. Narvo Flieboppen*

    This week’s complaint, courtesy of our CFO, is that our October financial reports were, and I quote ‘far too good to be correct.’ Revenue was above budget by about 16% and expenses were slightly under budget, by less than 1%.

    So our entire accounting team had to take an extra day and half to research why we were doing so well. During this time, it was revealed I had estimated some expenses because the invoices hadn’t shown up before we closed the books. It was insinuated I did a poor job of estimating, which is why the expenses were so low, and I was ordered to remove my estimates and use the actual invoiced amounts for all of the bills which have since come in. Fine, if that’s how we want it. I had estimated the pending expenses would be $132,000. The actual billed total? $131,600. So, with actual costs, expenses went down slightly. Also, for those not doing the math at home, I was only 0.3% off on my estimate. Known in saner parts of the world as pretty damned good.

    The final results were accepted, but we have been admonished that we should do better next month and there shouldn’t be such a large gap between excess revenue and actual expenses. Because, obviously, making more money while keeping expenses down is bad.

    I might just have to walk out of here without finding a new job. I’m not sure my remaining grey matter can withstand the cognitive dissonance.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      LMAO “do better” at spending all the money that is allotted, indeed…they’re mad they’re gonna have a surplus to dump to avoid taxes at the end of the year it sounds like.

      I had one boss who would stock pile revenue until like December 20th and then rush to buy things, including company vehicles. You know what takes awhile to push paperwork through, vehicles but he still managed to do so every year just to get rid of that cash and flip it to an asset.

      But I’ve never in my life seen someone mad that revenue was up 16% unexpectedly. The horror…

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        That’s the thing – we’re a NPO. We’re not paying taxes on the money. We’re dumping it back into programs and, theoretically, supposed to be proving we can afford to give raises to staff while maintaining service levels and moderating expenses. This is everyone in the organization basically trying to justify their jobs and earn a raise. Which we can seemingly afford, based on what I’m seeing.

        I suppose it makes it harder to hit up donors for that sweet, sweet ‘quick before you get taxed’ money. Oops, we managed to keep expenses down, while expanding programs, and bringing in plenty of funding. Or, y’know, another way to spin it is we’re working very hard to be efficient while keeping our programs accessible and more money would allow us to do more for more people.

        But I’m a lunatic who isn’t in marketing, so what do I know?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You’re too good at your jobs. EVERYONE IS FIRED. Bring in the ones who will flush this money and keep our programs in rags.

    2. irene adler*

      $132K vs. $131,600- I’m no accountant but dang, you are good! Some people just cannot find it within themselves to tell their employees “good job!” Big flaw on their part. Don’t let it adversely affect you or your professional actions.

    3. noahwynn*

      I understand asking the question from the CFO’s perspective. Maybe something was missed. However, once it was determined to be correct, “great job everyone!”

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Hear, hear.

        The original question is a “This looks like it could be wrong, could you explain and double check to double check that this is reality?”

        But then you go “Oh shht, we are seeing that surplus! Nice. This will help because you know…it’s NP and next month and next year is not a given, ever. ” *face desk*

    4. Dancing Otter*

      It’s called revenue smoothing. A really good month or quarter makes the next one look lackluster. Or else, it can invite questions TPTB would prefer remain unasked.

      At a place I am so glad I no longer work, the CFO always waited until he saw the preliminary report before deciding how much to record for estimates and reserves – think allowance for doubtful accounts, for an example. That is supposed to be calculated based on aging analysis, credit worthiness, quantifiable factors, not what makes the monthly/quarterly net income what you want it to be.

      Shady as hell, yet Internal Audit never blinked an eye. No wonder the external auditors always demanded so much data on all the estimates underlying his annual reports!

  65. KeysToTheKingdom*

    Not too much of a question (there’s one in here), but still – it’s been a while since I commented but wanted to do so because recently life has taken a bit of an upturn.

    To recap: I was treated HORRENDOUSLY by my old boss and a contractor at my last position to the point where my anxiety and depression hit new heights. After I left, the world came off my shoulders and I felt light again – such was the toxicity of those people.

    That was back in May. In August, I was hospitalised with high blood pressure – 220/180, at the age of 26. The cause? Hypertension due to stress, apparently. The situation was actually bordering on killing me! Can you believe that?

    Anyways. Earlier this month I signed a two month contract (with room to continue on the table) as a freelancer for an agency. I get to work from home and it’s interesting stuff – I kinda lowballed myself on the rates, but any money was going to be better than the negative money coming in. It’s been slow to start but the team are friendly, responsive, and clued in on what they need – it’s been a dream!

    In a strange twist of fate, though, the day after I signed with the agency, I got two phone calls – one for a role in the country I used to live in, and another that would be considered a “Dream” company to have on my resume. So I’m keeping my fingers crossed here.

    One question – I’ve been looking at something entirely different when my contract ends and if I decide the other roles aren’t ideal for me, which is teaching English as a foreign language. I’m a writer, so grammar and stuff comes naturally to me, but I’m concerned about the need for me to ask my old boss for a reference. I really don’t trust them to give me a good reference, but for me to get good jobs, it’s been suggested I do so. I have one former boss that has said they’ll sing my praises like they’re Julie Andrews in Sound of Music, but it’s important I try to get my last boss’ reference as well.

    How should I go about it? We didn’t leave in bad terms, and they said they’d give me a reference down the line, but in all honesty, I don’t know if I can trust them whatsoever to give me a good one. I don’t need to use the reference, of course, but still – what do we think? How should I approach it if the time comes, and what should I do to try and protect myself if the reference isn’t super glowing?

    1. 00ff00Claire*

      Not sure if this would be the best route, but it’s the first I can think of – would you be able to get someone you know (friend or family member) to contact this old boss under the guise of checking your references? You would then have an idea of what old boss would say, and you could decide if you want to use them as a reference.

      1. KeysToTheKingdom*

        Great idea! I definitely appreciate it – it would definitely give me an indication for sure. Thank you!

  66. Elle*

    I have a situation that I’d like to get feedback on
    I took a job a few years ago where I knew there had been quite a bit of turnover but it was easily explained. I started but never received the interim and annual review with a raise I was promised. So I scheduled a meeting with my boss that she cancelled an hour beforehand. I left notes asking for clarity on specific questions that were never answered. Then 18 months in, I found out she had a list of all the mistakes that she had been correcting and not telling me about. Evidently I had reached the limit and was fired.
    The company was unsuccessful in getting unemployment blocked. I also happen to know hat boss has been demoted. I ended up back at a previous job that I love that wanted to hire me but couldn’t before with a large raise.
    However I’m curious. I know I can’t blame a boss for why a job ended but I’m not sure how I would explain it.

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Should you be making mistakes? No. Do humans makes mistakes? You betcha. Can we learn from those mistakes if we don’t know about them? Not so much.

      Your ex-boss was fixing your mistakes, then never telling you about them, so how would you know to fix them? And you say you can’t blame her for firing you for continuing to make mistakes which she never told you about? Pretty sure you can blame her. She failed to do her job, which was to actually manage you and your work so you could be successful.

      1. Elle*

        I blame her. My question is how would you explain it in an interview “i was the third person in and out in 3 years because my manager didn’t know how to give a correction”

        1. Narvo Flieboppen*

          Well, I totally missed the point of your question first time around! That is a tough one. I’m trying to think of a good way to word it and failing. “There was no process in place to provide feedback on errors” doesn’t really cut it.

        2. JohannaCabal*

          How long was it between the job you were fired from and the previous job that hired you back? If it was only a short interim, you could probably get away with mentioning the other job hired you back “with a really great opportunity” and not even mention you were fired from that job.

          In my most recent interviews I have not had anyone go through my resume job by job, so I don’t say why I have left positions.

          Also, how long ago was this? Depending on how long ago you were fired, it may not come up.

  67. Peaches*

    Is there any way to get around a company who has a “This Is Our Vacation Policy And We Can’t Deviate From It” policy?

    Basically, I am wanting to ask to go to 35 hours a week next year (7:30-3 with a 1/2 hour lunch break; I currently work 7:30-4:30 with an hour lunch break). It is something my husband and I have talked about for quite some time. He is a PA and recently got a new job with a $40k pay increase (which is nearly as much as I make in a year!) We are also conservative with our finances and debt-free, which has given me the freedom to scale down my hours. I’d like to volunteer at an animal shelter and have more time to cook (which I LOVE!)

    Anyway, based on several factors, I am pretty confident that my manager will grant my request to go to 35 hours a week. The problem is that I’m afraid my vacation will be scaled down as well. I hit the 5-year mark with the company in January 2020, which will allow me to accrue 3 weeks of vacation, rather than the 2 I’ve accrued the previous 4 years. The problem is that the 3 weeks are not just given for being a full time employee (which I know 35 hours is still considered), but are accrued weekly. Based on the accrual rate, I would only accrue about 2.5 weeks of vacation, as opposed to the 3 I would accrue if I were working 40 hours a week.

    Based on coworkers who have tried to ask for more vacation, our company is very stuck on vacation time being corporate policy, and no exceptions can be made. However, I would REALLY like my full 3 weeks of vacation next year, even if I’m only working 35 hours/week. Based on past situations, I like my manager will say, “well, you’re always welcome to take unpaid time if you absolutely need to.” The thing is, it’s not a “need”. My husband and I like to travel, and I would be using my time off for vacation, not for emergencies. I would be fine a few unpaid days for travel, but I don’t want to be looked down on for taking unpaid time off just for travel.

    Any advice?

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      My advice: Accept that you might have to take a half-week of unpaid time off and budget for it.
      My job accrues far less PTO than my wife’s, but she also makes considerably more than I do. Some of her extra, she takes solo. Some I take off anyway and take it unpaid. In the end, it all comes out in the wash.

      Anything else, I’d point out that your opening line could be paraphrased as “Any suggestions on how I can game the system?”

      1. Peaches*

        <i?Anything else, I’d point out that your opening line could be paraphrased as “Any suggestions on how I can game the system?”

        …not at all. People ask on AAM all the time how they can (successfully) request more vacation time. You make it sound like I’m doing something wrong by wanting to barter for more vacation.

        I am fine with taking unpaid time, and probably should have made that more clear in my initial post. I just want to make sure my manager is aware (and okay with) me using unpaid time to tack onto vacations that I have planned, rather than only being able to take unpaid time in “emergency” situations.

      2. Peaches*

        (corrected formatting)

        Anything else, I’d point out that your opening line could be paraphrased as “Any suggestions on how I can game the system?”

        …not at all. People ask on AAM all the time how they can (successfully) request more vacation time. You make it sound like I’m doing something wrong by wanting to barter for more vacation.

        I am fine with taking unpaid time, and probably should have made that more clear in my initial post. I just want to make sure my manager is aware (and okay with) me using unpaid time to tack onto vacations that I have planned, rather than only being able to take unpaid time in “emergency” situations.

          1. Peaches*

            No worries. I just wanted to make it clear that I’m definitely not one to abuse company policies, or do something under the table (in fact, I can be a rule follower to a fault.) I used “get around” to indicate that my company does not typically (if ever) approve requests for more vacation time, and it will be difficult to have it approved by my manager when I ask her, that’s all. Probably not the best word choice on my part, sorry.

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      I’m confused- if you accrue based on hours worked, wouldn’t you also need fewer hours of PTO to make a “week” off, so you’re getting 2.5 weeks at 40 hour weeks, which is still 3 35 hour weeks

      1. annony*

        That’s how it should work. If PTO is accused on an hourly rate is should be spent that way too. So scaling it down should result in the same number of days off.

        1. Peaches*

          I guess I should have rephrased my question. I am fine with getting 2.5 weeks instead of 3, but want to make sure I make it clear with my manager that it would be okay to use unpaid day(s) for vacation, not just “emergency type” situations.

          1. Reba*

            I don’t feel like that’s something you need to distinguish, honestly! Unless there is a lot more context we are missing, like your boss is super involved in all of y’alls plans and regularly asks you to justify what you are doing … I think you are reading to much into the boss’s use of “need to.” (Which I will also note has not actually been said yet)! You know, you will “need” those days to take all the days of the trip you want to take. Maybe it’s “need” like “you have run out of days” not “need” like “you have a emergency of sufficient seriousness.”

            I’m dealing with a similar thing now, where I had gone down to part time some of this year (not willingly, though :) ) and now I don’t have enough days or comp time earned to do my holiday travel as I wish, so I’m looking at taking a few more unpaid days. No bigs in my workplace/for my role.

            1. Peaches*

              You might be right, honestly! You’re correct that it hasn’t been said yet to me, personally. I just know that in the past when people have asked if they can take days off once they run out of vacation, she has said something to the effect of, “you can always take unpaid time off if you need to.” I guess I’m interepreting “need” as “only acceptable if it’s an emergency”, but that may not be the case.

              I hope you get to do your holiday travel. :)

      2. Peaches*

        Well sure, but my point is that if I want to take 3-1 week vacations next year, I’d have to use 3 unapid days. I want to make sure I have the ‘OK’ from my manager to use unapid days to tack onto trips I have planned, rather than for “emergency only” situations.

        I guess I could have phrased my question better. I’m fine with taking the time unpaid, given that I’m able to use unpaid days for travel, rather than just “emergency situations” that may come up.

        1. Natalie*

          Why do you think you would need unpaid days?

          You currently work full time and accrue 120 hours a year. In order to take a week’s vacation, you use 40 hours. 120 / 40 = 3 weeks

          If your accrual scales down with the amount of hours worked, you’ll accrue 105 hours a year. You use 35 hours to take a week off. 105 / 35 = 3 weeks

        2. Half-Caf Latte*

          I have managed a lot of 0.9FTE employees, and we always gave them 36 hours of PTO for a full week off.

          We allowed them to take 40 hours a week of PTO if they wanted to (occasional request I got), but the default PTO was the scheduled hours.

          Do you accrue days or hours? I could see how you might need to explain the math to boss if it’s “days”, but if it’s hours, you should be fine.

    3. Happy Lurker*

      Would you consider putting your request off for six months to a year?
      That would give you your 3 weeks of vacation this year. It will allow you to feel like you are getting your earned PTO and gradually move to your desired work schedule. Maybe in June you ask for a 1/2 hour lunch to scale down to 37.5 and six months later go to 35?
      At some point you will see the reduction in PTO. You put in the last 4 years and by golly earned the extra week. I would be sure to take it. Time goes by pretty fast.

      1. Peaches*

        I would consider that, yes! That’s sort of why I posed the question in the first place – I’ve spent 4 years working 40 hours/week, and have been looking forward to this extra week off in 2020 (that I’ve earned!) for quite some time. Definitely something to think about – thanks!

      1. Peaches*

        I didn’t mean “scaled down” in the context you’re implying. I understand that my vacation accrual rate will be the same. I’m asking for advice on how I can perhaps ask for an increase in my accrual rate, so that I’m still able to earn 3 weeks of vacation next year, although I’d be working less hours.

        1. Mae*

          For my own clarification: you want to work less hours but still get the same amount of vacation by getting the company to let you accrue your time faster than other employees? But you are ok with taking unpaid time if your boss won’t allow it?

          At this point, since you are in a better financial situation and can afford unpaid time off, all you can do is ask. But since you know the company is strict with their policy, be prepared to have to take the time unpaid.

        2. Lucette Kensack*

          Based on this clarification, I think you should wait to make this request. It will be a tough sell to ask for two (somewhat contradictory) things at the same time: reduced hours and an increase in your accrual rate.

          (I also have to admit that I don’t totally understand the problem you’re trying to solve here. If you’re working 35 hours a week, you only need 35 hours a week of PTO to take the week off at full pay.)

        3. annony*

          I think you need to stop thinking of it in terms of days and think of it in terms of hours instead. A day off for you will no longer be 8 hours, it will be 7 hours. So you should still have the same number of paid days off and not even have to worry about unpaid days.

    5. Margaret*

      I think I’m missing something with your concern. How do you end up with only 2.5 weeks? If the accrual is reduced to 7/8 because that’s what you’re working, don’t you also only need to use 7/8 of the hours to have 3 weeks off? If you’re generally working 7 hours/day, you should only need to record 7 hours of PTO. That shouldn’t be inconsistent with most policies – even when it accrues by the hour, the expectation should be that you take off one day at a time – and for you, one day = 7 hours, not 8.

      I work a reduced schedule (base of 30 hours, based on the industry I work more than at tunes that so I also have an annual total hours to meet that averages more, but in slow times I only need to hit 30 hours). My PTO accrual is scaled accordingly. If I were regular full time I would accrue 16.7 hours/month (5 weeks at 40 hours). Instead based on my pro rated annual hours I accrue 15 hours/month. But I still get 5 weeks because I only have to use 30 hours to fill one week.

      I can actually get closer to 6 weeks off, depending on how I record my time (6 hour days or 8 hour days… depending on whether it’s a full week off or a day or two, it varies. I’ve asked for clarification on how I’m “supposed” to record it, and not gotten a clear answer. I just try to be reasonable, and I’m senior enough that as long as my work gets done it’s not too big a concern).

  68. Hats Hats Hats*

    I’ve always tried to follow good protocol on office gift giving and as one of the low ranking employees I’ve never been able to give holiday gifts to co-workers other than baking cookies to share or something for the white-elephant exchange. But this year I have my first opportunity for a downward-flowing gift as I have my first student-employee! Any suggestions on what an appropriate gift would be? She has been awesome – picks up things quickly and works hard, asks good questions, etc. and since she came on board I am caught up on certain projects for the first time ever. And she’s a first-year student so potentially (hopefully!) she can work for us for a few years! This job has nothing to do with her major (pre-med) but she says she likes it and it is a nice break from the hard science classes she has right now. She is pretty shy (like I am) so we’re not best buddies (some of my co-workers become VERY close to their student-employees) but I’m quite fond of her and we have a warm friendly working relationship and are both comfortable spending a lot of our days in amicable silence. I’ll probably just do a couple of gift cards, but what are some other ideas?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I would think about something small and thoughtful to go along with a gift card to a place she frequently purchases from. A nice scarf or pair of earrings, a book, special coffee mug or whatever. Fairly professional, and possibly something that could go with her to her next job. Warm friendly working relationship is where you want to keep the gift … nothing too elaborate, but nice enough to feel like you took some time to think about her.

      1. Platypus Enthusiast*

        Agreed with this, and in addition, a nice note/letter about how much you appreciate her. It doesn’t have monetary value, but it can mean a lot!

        1. Blue Eagle*

          No, no coffee mug. Everyone has way too many coffee mugs that were received as gifts. It’s just one more thing to throw in the trash.

          As a low-paid employee years ago, the thing I appreciated most was a gift card to a store that also sold groceries so that I could splurge on something that would normally not be in my budget.

    2. Hermione*

      As a student-employee 100 years ago, I was given a couple of nice pairs of really warm socks from a faculty member along with a very nice thank you note for a project I’d helped with, and I still have and wear them during the winter and always think of her when I do. I would have also loved a scarf or small ceramic ring dish or something.

      The department itself also gave me a gift card as a holiday present, which was nice too! I’d just be careful about getting something that she’ll use. I’ve seen cases (as a staff member) where a student was given an iTunes gift card when they’re clearly an Android user, and another where they were given a small gift card to an expensive restaurant where the card wouldn’t cover enough to be bothered to go there. If you happen to know some fact about her (loves the coffee kiosk outside, loves her PS4, addicted to Insomnia Cookies), I’d try to gear the gift card in that direction to show that you really see her, not just any old student.

      You’re being very thoughtful; I bet she likes working there with you :)

  69. Pepper Ann*

    For those that don’t have a “keep moving upward” career path and had lateral moves, how do you best spin that?

    I’m looking to leave my toxic job out of college for a job that is considerably a meh job title, but the job duties itself will give me good skills that I think will still be useful (teaching, facilitating, grant writing and management.) I know one day I want to keep moving up, but I’m not sure what part of the field. Is it ok to keep exploring with these “lateral” moves, and will it hurt that I’m not moving into upward titles like manager or supervisor?

    1. Hats Hats Hats*

      Maybe eventually. Like if you had 20 years of no growth, but a few lateral moves early in your career is super normal.

    2. upward*

      Spinning it: Well, I personally, just tell the truth. It’s more about the job itself than the title. It makes sense to me for X reasons, etc. If upward isn’t for you right now, being able to articulate why will go a long way, imo.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      will it hurt that I’m not moving into upward titles like manager or supervisor?

      I hope not, because I never, ever intend to have either of those titles.

      If asked, I’d say something like “right now, I’m more interested in broadening my skillset than in managing, so I’ve been looking for jobs that will help me develop skills in X and Y .”

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Ooooh this is a great answer to “What are your career goals/five-year plan,” etc. questions that I keep getting on applications. I can tie them into the job.

        I know this wasn’t meant for me, but thanks, Rusty!

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        I like this, too, and I agree with you about not wanting those things – although I do have the word “manager” in my title, lol.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      If those lateral roles will build a solid knowledge base that would be an asset to those higher level roles, they won’t hurt you at all.
      For example if I want to be a Corporate Controller, some jobs that would be useful would be cost accountant, general accountant, plant accountant, financial analyst. Those are mostly equivalent jobs in that they are either entry level or 2-3 years of experience but a Corporate Controller is over all of those areas so a couple years exposure to each area will be an asset. When discussing it you could say “My long term goal is to be in management but I know I need to develop these key skills and get a really broad understanding of this field/company in order to be the most effective.”

  70. Ewesername*

    I’m working with a micromanager. This person is not my manager or in any way my supervisor but someone I have to work closely with. She’s constantly asking “what are you working on?” “We really need x done first” “what’s your capacity like today?” “Are you following the best procedure? We need y done today” I’ve been doing this job longer than she has – I know what I’m doing and what needs to be done. I have a schedule I’m following that the boss approves of.
    For context, I’m a department of one. I think she thinks I need over seeing. I don’t and the boss agrees.
    Black Friday is in less than a week and I may stuff her in a box and ship her across the country soon.
    Suggestions how to tell her to back off?

    1. StellaBella*

      “Jane, I am curious as to why you are suddenly micro managing me with these questions, when I have a boss and have been doing this job well for X years? Boss and I talked and we would like to share with us what you are doing here, please – and while you’re at it can you share with your boss too why you are doing this? Is in in your mandate?” (maybe too direct? sorry am in a mood today to be a bit snarky to people who are micro managers of people they should not be).

      1. Ewesername*

        Snark is my first language! Unfortunately, this person has a habit of running to HR for any little thing, so I need to keep it in check. But I’ll take that suggestion and see if I can say it sounding … like me.

    2. Happy Lurker*

      How about “Boss and I talked earlier. I am all set today.” if you feel like it add a thank you. But if you are at the BEC stage leave it off. Say it while smiling and nodding, matter of fact and immediately turn back to your work.
      I would also find a way to speak with Boss about it. Framed in an advice on how to handle micromanaging coworker and/or did I miss a memo. Not a bitch session.
      Good luck!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Why do you ask?” is always a good response. And it doesn’t matter how she answers, because you don’t care, and your next response is going to be “Don’t worry, I’ve got a handle on it” or “I’m doing what Boss and I worked out, thanks for asking” or “This is the schedule Boss has for me,” etc.

      1. CM*

        Or do listen to the answer. I agree that “Why do you ask” or “I don’t understand why you’re asking me about X” is a good way to start off. It might be that there is some actual reason why she’s bugging you all the time — like maybe projects for her department keep getting stalled and she’s being pressured to make sure they get done on time or something. If you can find out what the reason is, you can have a discussion where you find some other way to meet her needs without doing this weird check-in all the time.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      “what are you working on?” My job. What about you?

      “We really need x done first” Best get started then, and let me know how you’re progressing.

      “what’s your capacity like today?” All set, thanks.

      “Are you following the best procedure? We need y done today” Why do you ask? Where are you on y?

      Essentially, shut her down and/or turn it around on her. Deflect as though she’s actually looking for help herself in getting her priorities straight, and remind her that she has work to be doing herself (that is not managing you).

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Meant to note, the tone of your responses should be as light as you can make it, almost like you’re sharing an in-joke about your shared work (“I’m working on my job, ha ha”), or like you’re sincere in your response (gentle hint of “ooh, are you having trouble with your work, lemme know how I can help you”, which I imagine would bug someone who’s trying to boss you around) rather than snarky or defensive.

    5. Rey*

      I think it would be good to have one conversation with her that really clearly addresses this, and then if it happens again, you can pass it on to your boss and honestly say that you tried to handle it on your own but she didn’t listen. You could start with “I’m concerned that you’re trying to manage my entire workload, instead of just giving me the information that’s relevant to your project. I work with boss to set my priorities and ensure that projects are getting the needed turnaround. Moving forward, I will let you know when your project is scheduled, but I’m not going to go through my entire workload with you.”

      If she falls into the habit again, you need the most boring and bland repetitive response so that knows this isn’t going to work anymore: “We already talked about why I’m not going to answer that” or “I sent you an email with your project schedule.” But if it happens more than you can handle, bounce it to your boss. If you feel like you need to cover yourself, you could loop them in now to let them know how you’re handling it.

  71. Half-Caf Latte*

    I’m looking for help framing a conversation with my boss for my performance eval.

    We have a new 5 point behavioral rating tool, with 5 defined as “talented”, 3 defined as “skilled”, and 1 defined as “needs improvement”. There are discrete examples of behaviors associated with each level. These are all “soft skills” like: courage, builds networks, collaborates, and decision quality.

    Apparently, leadership got instructions that we should all pick 1 area of needs improvement, and 2-3 talented. I did not know this, and went in with about 7 or 8 items ranked @ a 2 (btwn needs improvement and skilled), several 3s (skilled), and a few 4s or 5s.

    Boss didn’t even look at my self eval, and was pretty dismissive and was like “so i guess you think you don’t have anything to improve on.” I said, no, I absolutely do, look at these 2s i gave myself, and here ares some examples of things I want to improve, and my actions to date and continued plan to improve. I asked if she had actually read the descriptors for the different levels, and she hadn’t. I was flustered though, and it definitely showed. I don’t think Boss really heard me, and I was instructed to re-do it.

    Thing is – I 100% do believe I have areas to grow. The discrete exemplars on the form under “needs improvement” are pretty bad as far as professional behaviors go.

    For example, collaboration: “Overlooks opportunities to work collaboratively with others, values own interests above others, shuts down lines of communication across groups, prefers to work alone and be accountable for individual contributions.” Courage: “shies away from difficult issues or challenge assignments, expresses POV in an indirect manner, avoids giving corrective feedback, ails to take a stand on important issues.”

    To me, these descriptors are all things that are pretty much “you need to make strides in this area yesterday”. I would like to go back to boss and try to clarify my previous thinking, but I’m also wondering if that’s worth it, or if I might be better off by saying “Sorry I misunderstood the directions before, it’s redone, here you go” and picking one area of weakness and scoring it a 1, regardless of the language.

    1. Reba*

      Yeah, to me this reads like a substantive or nuanced discussion is not going to happen, and you should make your numbers conform with the bosses’ distribution and just be done with it. Bummer.

    2. CM*

      FWIW this entire model sounds moralistic and judgemental. You don’t need to let your boss shame you into pretending to think you’re worse at something than you are — you can cheerfully disagree.

      I know that, based on your description, courage is maybe not your strong suit, but this is a good moment to exercise it. Evaluate yourself truthfully and stand by the evaluation. If your boss disagrees that’s her prerogative, but she’s the one making it weird right now by trying to tell you you’re arrogant because you wrote an honest assessment.

      To be clear, if I were in her position and I had a terrible employee who gave themselves all fives, I still wouldn’t behave the way she’s behaving. The correct thing to do would be to have a conversation about how our ratings differed and why, not to say, “Do it again and mark yourself worse.”

      So, fill it out truthfully, remember that these assessments are subjective (your assessment of yourself is subjective and her assessment of you is subjective), be open to hearing that she has a different opinion but don’t take it as evidence that you’re a bad person because you disagree. If she’s mad that you didn’t score yourself lower this time just say that you’re interested to discuss any differences in your assessment vs hers and you are of course happy to explain the reasoning behind your ratings.

  72. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I’ve been getting the strangest rejection letters from companies lately! Not the majority of them of course, but some of them are companies I’ve never even talked to and instead of just, “We regret to inform you we filled the position,” or something, it’s like, this big longggggg convoluted email where I have to read it three times to figure out what they’re saying. Some of them have the “Please reply above this line,” but it’s a rejection letter that starts with how excited they are to have read my application.

    One of them that never even interviewed with, was along the lines of “We are so sorry, and know you must be horribly disappointed. This is such terrible news.” I was like, god, do people like jump off a bridge if they don’t get a call?!

    Is it just me??? Have you ever gotten a weird rejection letter?

    1. merp*

      I got a really weird rejection voicemail once (feeling grateful I was in class and didn’t answer). This was a parttime thing, would have been cool but not like a dream job, and this guy on the phone just sounded either a) so broken up personally that he couldn’t hire me or b) like he expected that I would be so broken up that he had to console me. He was so emotional and apologetic! I opted not to call back just in case I had to comfort him.

    2. OG Kimmy Schmidt*

      Uh oh, one of us is going to have to go home and change.

      Is this better or worse than the black hole companies you never hear an official rejection from?

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I was just looking for one similar to that and noticed I just now got this:

      Thank you for your interest in our company. Your application has been received. We do appreciate the time that you invested in this application, and wish you the best in your endeavors.

      I can’t tell whether it’s a rejection or an auto-application response! It reads like a rejection, so I’m just going to mark it as such.

    4. CM*

      Some of them have been getting better — warmer, friendlier, etc. But, yeah, I’ve seen some that are weird. One place wrote my a completely personalized email that spent the first two paragraphs telling me how great I was as if they were leading into an interview invite and then the last paragraph was a rejection. Not to be petty, but I used to write rejection letters as my job and the most important thing is to be clear right off the top that that’s what the message is.

      I had another rejection letter that was obviously automated but triggered every possible reason for the rejection. Like, it was a fill-in-the-blank situation where the system was supposed to populate a reason for the rejection like, “we don’t have any open positions at the moment,” or “you don’t have the minimum qualifications,” or “we’ve decided to move forward with other candidates” and it just hit me with every single reason in one run-on sentence. It was like, “Dear applicant, I know you just submitted this two minutes ago, but you don’t meet the minimum qualifications we’ve decided to move forward with other candidates we don’t have any open positions at the moment. Thanks so much.”

  73. Lalaith*

    Recent events at work have me wondering – at what point would you consider it appropriate to say no to a client? Obviously there are going to be a ton of factors, but here are my instances:

    1) We have a client who suddenly wants rather complicated custom products. We made the last one for them in what was already what I consider a tight turnaround time of about a week, maybe a little more. And they decided to change the design halfway through. Now they want another similar product, but with a different (though simpler) design, so it has to be created from scratch. When they asked for this, there was about a week’s worth of business days before they wanted it completed. Already pushing it. Except it can’t be started until they have the final design (to avoid what happened last time), and apparently they can’t have that done until *two business days* before they need the whole thing done! My coworker, who made the last one, says she can do it in those two days if she focuses on that exclusively. I personally would have said no (I also couldn’t do it that fast, but that’s a different point). Then again, I don’t know how much money this client is bringing in :P

    2) We have a potential client – not even a paying client yet – who has required a ton of work to create customized products that will work with their clients and their environment. Honestly, I probably would have cut it off with them the first time all the weirdness showed up in their environment (sorry, this probably sounds weird but I’m trying to be vague), or at any of several points since then. However, after all of the work involved, we have mostly managed to make it work. Again, I hope they bring in money after all this!

    There are probably more issues that I’m not remembering now, but that should give some idea of what I’m talking about. How far are you willing to bend over backwards for clients, and when do you say no?

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      For #1: I hope you’re charging them tons of rush fees. Sometimes people realizing their indecision has financial consequences to *them* can magically cause decisions to happen on realistic, reasonable timelines.

      1. Lalaith*

        No… none at all. There are reasons for this, although with this tight of a deadline I think some of those reasons no longer apply… We do have rush fees that sometimes we threaten other demanding clients with (I don’t think they’ve actually used them), but Boss seems to really be playing nice with this particular client. I just fear that they’re going to come to expect this kind of jump-at-their-command service, and I’d really like to mitigate that. But I don’t get to make these decisions.

        1. machinations and palindromes*

          If you have a relationship with your boss where you can raise the concern, I highly highly highly recommend you do. Because this client is gonna assume this is something they can do all the time. If they want that, they gotta pay for it. Letting them have it for free is training them to expect it for free.

    2. CM*

      I don’t think of it as saying no. I think that the healthiest way to have a client relationship (though I admit this doesn’t always happen) is to be super clear in your own minds about what you are and aren’t willing to do for X amount of money and then set boundaries around it. So, maybe it’s okay to have your coworker do this work in two days if the client pays more. Or maybe it’s okay for the client to change the design mid-stream if they extend the timeline by another week. Or maybe the client is paying such a huge ridiculous fee to begin with that it’s worth it to put up with these problems.

      I think what’s more likely to be the issue in your situation (and often in my situation) is that the people who are being negatively impacted by the client’s behavior are different from the people who are benefiting financially from tolerating the inconvenience. If you guys aren’t getting a commission on the job and your salary stays the same whether or not you’re being hassled and rushed, it’s reasonable to be annoyed that the people actually negotiating this deal are seemingly willing to tolerate any level of inconvenience to you without limits. If that’s what’s happening, it’s a problem you have to solve in-house in terms of how the company is approaching client relations as opposed to a problem you have to solve with the clients themselves.

    3. Lalaith*

      Probably nobody’s reading this any more, but I just had to add – today, my boss actually tried to give this project TO ME. With, as I said, two business days to do it. When my coworker is the one who agreed to do it and hashed it out with the client. Because suddenly something else she was doing was more important. THIS IS WHY YOU DON’T AGREE TO A PROJECT LIKE THIS. Because you need wiggle room. Ugh. Just… no.

  74. MusicWithRocksInIt*

    So, just got off the phone with the guy who is supposed to help me get a job, and he tells me no one reads cover letters anymore and they will be obsolete in five years, and I should have a skills section on my resume that I tailor to each job I apply to because resumes are all picked by computers these days. This all feels wrong, but I thought I should check in with the peanut gallery… what do you think?

    1. Reba*

      Supposed to according to who?

      I do think the keywording thing is legit, but a skills section may or may not be the way to do it depending on your field.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You’ve got two audiences with a resume. Computer tracking systems (if applying online), and humans.

      If you don’t get the resume into a specific human’s hands directly, then you need to have the search terms that HR will be using to pull names out of the applicant pool. Those search terms are likely to be the words in the job posting. You can have them anywhere, pretty much, for the computer’s purposes.

      Having the skills/highlights/best stuff for this job details on the top in its own section allows the human to see all the good bits curated right where they start reading. This lets the human get excited that they are not wasting time with another off-topic, unfocused boring resume. This gives them the strength and energy to now go down and scan through your work history to see where all the best bits came from, and to decide whether to call you up.

      Personally, I like cover letters because it gives you a chance to do the social schmoozy bits before getting down to the business of resumes. Some people read them, some people don’t. People who do read them will want a good one that feels specific to them and their company and your situation and good fit. What’s obsolete is a generic cover letter that just changes the name at the top.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This guy seems…overbearing and full of himself. I’m curious, what are his credentials? How much hiring has he done? And when?

      Claiming he knows how hiring will be for everyone! everywhere! seems oddly out of touch.

      And, no, I don’t agree with this person. We just did a round of hiring at multiple levels in my organization and cover letters were very much appreciated and used in our evaluation.

    4. irene adler*

      Why not include a cover letter? If they don’t read it then fine, you’ve wasted some of your time. But if they do read it, and it creates interest in you/your resume, that’s a good thing, right?

  75. Sighhhh*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to be less hard on yourself when receiving good constructive criticism?

    Yesterday in our weekly one-on-one, my new manager gave me some really helpful, excellent feedback about some things, i.e., minor ways I can sound more assertive and purposeful in e-mails, etc. As someone who is relatively fresh out of college and three months into the position, the advice is thoughtful, very good, and was delivered with the utmost tact and respect. I thanked her generously for taking the time to give me that feedback, clarified her points, and left the meeting feeling much more confident with how to go about certain job duties. I truly feel grateful to have a manager who cares about my growth and development, and who makes that a priority as I learn the business–she’s awesome!

    However…there’s this weird part of me that feels guilty and terrible; like if I were truly as good of an employee as she always says, I shouldn’t have /needed/ to be coached in the first place–the good behavior and knowledge would be there in the first place. This reaction definitely comes from my childhood, where my high-expectation parents would imply that something was wrong with me/I wasn’t trying hard enough if a teacher told me there was a better or more effective way of doing something. After some very coaching-heavy years in a different job, I’ve made it my personal goal to be able to accept even the harshest constructive criticism with nothing but poise and graciousness in the moment. And while I’ve achieved that, I can’t stop beating myself up personally afterward for not being perfect from day 1. I don’t cry or get emotional or anything like that… just disappointed in myself.

    Has anyone else dealt with this or have any advice?

    1. relatively recent hire*

      I mean first of all, you graciously took feedback- great job! It’s hard! No one likes hearing things about themselves that they need to change, no matter how helpful or nice the advice is. I’d say cut yourself some slack for having an inner negative reaction (because it happens!!!). Also- so many job things are subjective and different from job to job! Your email tone might have worked out great in your last job but in this one it needs to be more assertive, and that might have nothing to do with you personally or how you write emails, but just what works in one job doesn’t necessarily work the same in another. You did the best you could with the information you have, and now you’ll do better with new information. That’s all anyone can ask for. No one can come into a new job and do everything perfectly right off the bat without getting feedback from others in some way.

      Also, if you find this reaction affecting your life or if you’d even just like to be able to talk it through and you haven’t gotten a good therapist, consider doing that as well! A therapist can be a great person to talk this kind of stuff out with to help reality-check and give you ideas on what makes sense to focus on.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve been working in my career field for 22 years. Last week I had a meeting with my manager where, among other things, she coached me on how to position myself for a promotion, with several suggestions for how to increase my visibility. And I had kind of same reaction as you – grateful to have a manager who wants to see me progress, and mixed feelings about not having already worked on those high-visibility things on my own (do I deserve a promotion if I couldn’t come up with that on my own, or need external prodding?). There’s always going to be something to work on. What you take away from it is key.

      The fact that you can already take criticism gracefully and respond well in the moment is itself a very important skill! You’ll probably never stop getting feedback of one kind or another throughout your whole career, and your ability to take it in respectfully, understand how you can improve, and feel motivated to try will serve you well. It might not silence your inner critic, but your professionalism doesn’t need help, you got it covered.

    3. Autumnheart*

      Maybe frame it like not being coached so much as being taught? You’re not making mistakes, you’re learning. Nobody is born knowing everything they need to know.

      I empathize with your “parents expected perfection on the first try” baggage, because my parents were the same way. But you’re just getting started in your career, and you’re learning on the job. And also remember, each job has its own niche processes and aspects, so even if you had 20 years of experience, you’d still have to learn new things and get the hang of a team’s culture. Professional growth = learning. Hopefully, the more you experience this as a normal part of feedback in the workplace, the less it will affect you negatively.

    4. CM*

      There’s a book called Thanks for the Feedback that is one of the best I’ve ever read, and I heartily recommend it. It goes into a lot of depth explaining the different social meanings that feedback can have in certain contexts, and why it can bother you, and how to be less bothered.

      Off the top of my head, I think maybe it would help to re-frame your manager’s feedback as advice rather than evaluation. Like, think of it less like she’s telling you whether you’re writing emails correctly and more like she’s giving you pro tips about things you could try to raise your game.

      But the book would give much better advice.

  76. ursula*

    Apropos of nothing, this week my brain fed me the phrase “Ask A Momager” and it hasn’t left me since.

  77. Event Planning Nightmare Fuel*

    Event Planning Folks – am I crazy here or are these expectations outrageous

    I work in communications for a small nonprofit that is an extension of a university. When I was first hired, I worked mostly on websites, social media, and newsletter creation, as well as execute the logistics of quarterly board meetings with some high powered people. My job is to support the communications needs of all departments/grants/initiatives our department executes.

    However, I have a new director. He sees me and my role as someone who generates no income for the dept. I don’t write grants, I am included in other people’s grants. In order for me to contribute my share he wants me to plan 2 major events (think conferences and galas level), on my own, with NO budget. He also seems to think that these events will generate 20k in profit etc.

    In my experience planning major events like this, it has always been planned by teams/committees, and we have been grateful and lucky to break even with conferences. I see how the gala might make a bit more money, but I still feel like his expectations are too high? Especially considering this is on top of everything I already do, and the expectation that I support the work of everyone else.

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      I think any expectation that you can put on an event with no budget is outrageous and unrealistic.

    2. Sequoit*

      No, you’re not crazy. This is outrageous. It sounds like your boss is deliberately setting you up for failure. Two major events is also a lot for one year!

      I guess there’s a couple thoughts I have:
      (1) Do you have a development position in your organization? Or is there a way you can propose partnering with your university’s development office to try to get some sort of budget?
      (2) Could you price out a few basic costs (renting a facility, catering, renting tables/chairs, invitations, etc.) and tell the director an event would cost at least $X? Or talk to similar organizations on campus and see what their major events usually cost them? So you can say that’s the going rate for your university/area?

      Hopefully someone has better advice. Good luck!!

    3. Ama*

      This is nuts. Not every role at a nonprofit is going to generate revenue, first of all (I happen to be in one of these — I give out the grants, I don’t bring the money in the door), so he is completely wrong-headed on that front. Second, conferences and fundraising galas are two VERY different things (I am also mystified as to how he thinks a conference is going to bring in money, but then again my org runs conferences to improve advocacy and research in our chosen cause, it has indirectly helped with fundraising because we have a good reputation for quality events that actually achieve things, but it definitely does not bring money any the door — if we’re lucky we can get enough corporate sponsors to offset 50-75% of our expenses.) We have completely different teams to handle these events at my work.

      Third, these events take a serious amount of manpower to plan — ESPECIALLY the first time you are doing one because there’s no precedent set for even the smallest decisions. One person can’t even do ONE alone, much less two.

      I unfortunately have worked in the past for people who have no concept of how expensive and time consuming event planning is (nor that it is a separate set of skills from managing other types of work) and to be honest, if he thinks two major events can just be dropped on top of your workload with nothing moving off, he is never going to understand what really goes into planning a high-quality event. You can try to push back (I would) but I’d also be prepared to start looking for another job, because in my experience people who don’t understand event planning do not change even with confronted with massive amounts of evidence that it takes more work and time than they realize.

    4. CM*

      LOL. If he wants $20K, you’d be better off cold-calling potential donors to see if you can get the money that way. Throwing an event to raise that money would take all of your time, probably some of 3-4 other people’s time, and a huge cash investment up front.

      As others have said, fundraising is also a different job from communications. So there’s no part of this request that makes sense. And this is 100% a fundraising request if the only purpose of hosting this event is to make money.

  78. RussianInTexas*

    Another small company rant (cue Imperial March again).
    Every year we have a holiday lunch. If you don’t want to go to lunch, you work all day, if you go, you can leave after the lunch and the gift raffle.
    Every year the lunch is at the next-door Chinese buffet. It is not great, but whatever. However, this year the place been dinged for some serious health violations multiple times – stuff like dead rats in the kitchen, roaches in the frying batter, other gross stuff. The results of health inspections were posted in the local newspaper, so everyone knows. Multiple people expressed the shared “ewwww” sentiment to our payroll employee who is also usually the events’ organizer.
    I talked to her. She is at a loss. The owners will want a Chinese buffet, cheap, with a party room, no exceptions, and no variations on the theme. She told them that people don’t want the **** Village. I feel like we will have it in the **** Village anyway.
    I did point out to her that we have the huge Chinatown two miles away, she should look there.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Yes, that’s what I am planning on, if we are still going there.
        There will be questions though, the owners (married couple) do walk around and tell you to “eat! eat more!”.
        I would be iffy on even using their glasses for water.

    2. irene adler*

      There’s gotta be another Chinese buffet at the price point the owners will accept. I would find that newspaper article and present it to the company owners (as a group) as reason why folks refuse to dine at the next door restaurant. IF they insist upon the next door place, tell them you all will make an inexpensive holiday meal even cheaper by not going. Hopefully they can understand the discomfort that would be caused by forcing folks to dine at the next door restaurant and opt for something else. Having some options at hand would make this easier for them.
      Or maybe this will be the holiday lunch where no one shows up.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        The group thing is not happening in this office, trust me on this one.
        But in my city, finding a Chinese Buffet should really not be an issue. Or you would think so.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I want to know a city that has a shortage of Chinese Buffet options, if they exist, we should let the world know so that it can be fixed immediately.

          But you know, to get one without rats, you’re gonna have to raise the price at least 25c a head and given how cheap your ownership seems to be, I can see that being a dealbreaker *sobs*

          1. RussianInTexas*

            According to the payroll person, we may have to cut down on the families participation, employees only.
            So rats+ families, or no rats+no families.
            Tough choice.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I want to smuggle you out of there in the darkness of night. I just cannot with that level of cheapness. And I’ve had cheap bosses my entire life, I’m frugal myself but not “contaminated buffet or NO FAMILIES” level.

              1. RussianInTexas*

                They are cheap to the point of not having paid holidays for Black Friday and Veterans Day. To clarify, we are not retail.
                I got my 3 years in in February and this is my deadline for starting to look around.

                1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                  To be fair, most places will not pay you for Veterans day!

                  And I’ve been reminding everyone [who has been here for more than a few years even] that YES we get Black Friday off and YES it’s paid…it’s in the handbook even but you know, yeah I’m here to just read it to you so that’s fine job security!

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              We’re a bursting at the seams with culinary extravagance that goes along with our microbreweries and wineries and we still have Chinese Buffets. Sometimes you do have to travel a bit since they’re not in every neighborhood but they’re there.

              1. Mockingjay*

                We have so many they are literally numbered: China Buffet 1, China Buffet 2…

                For some unknown reason there are two China Buffet 4s.

  79. Laburnum*

    I have a new staff member who is still under a probationary period. We work with the public and while her front-facing skills are ok/good, she immediately seemed to rub many of the other staff (who have been in their positions for a year or longer) the wrong way. She has some training from another location, but is still going through onboarding for our location. The problem is, when she is given correction or direction, she responds very defensively (to both staff assigned to train her, and to myself and my assistant manager). I think this is a difference in communication styles and have mentioned that to her when she complains about the other staff. However, I’m wondering if people have suggestions on how I can help her work on her “soft skills.” Her job expectations clearly state that she needs to give good customer service to both customers and her colleagues. I feel with enough time, we can work on this — but in the meantime, want to work with her to help her develop her soft skills so she can get along with the rest of the team. She’s not doing bad work — but she has created clear disharmony in a group of people that all worked together well until she started. Any ideas are appreciated – thanks!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      My former co-worker was like this as well when they come on-board; they left after a little less than two years, though their attitude in that time really was quite unpleasant. I wasn’t their manager, so I don’t know what was tried.

      What I thought would have been helpful was a direct conversation: “I notice that when you’re given a correction, you come across as defensive, like [concrete example of what makes it sound defensive]. We certainly don’t expect you to know everything at this point, so what’s going on with that response?”

      Then talk through what an appropriate reactions to corrections, e.g. “Oh, thank you [FULL STOP]” or “Oh, okay, got it [FULL STOP].”

    2. Wishing You Well*

      There’s a time limit for her soft skills improvement. Tell her exactly what she needs to do to improve her soft skills (in writing, if you need to). If she cannot improve in her probationary period, let her go before that period is over.
      I understand it’s a lot of work to find a new person, but you’re better off finding the right person. I’d rather have an employee with technical deficits than soft skills deficits. Technical skills are so much easier to teach.
      I hope the situation improves for you.

  80. many bells down*

    Been in my new job for two months now, after a long time out of the workforce (except for a brief contract job), and yesterday my boss said that I’ve “exceeded her expectations” for the role.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Congrats on doing so well!

      It’s very possible to jump in an out of work for some people with very little rust to knock off after you go back.

  81. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

    I would like to thank Alison and the AAM commenters for achieving a 2 for 2 record in helping this hopeless case get yet another job!!! (Seriously, none of my job searches have been easy.)

    The new job is in a field I’m passionate about and I’m really excited to start. However, my initial euphoria has also slowly given way to panic and I’m not sure how to handle it. My soon to be former job was also my first salaried job (I have done contract work prior.) My experience in this job also has been semi-dysfunctional, and while I’m now feeling relieved that I’m leaving this job, I feel like over the past 2 years I have normalized a lot of antagonistic feelings about jobs, managers, etc that I really don’t want to bring with me to my next job, but am paranoid might crop up again. Any advice on how to reset from a previous job?

    Also, since this has been my only “real” job, I’m not 100% sure where me being the problems started and where company be in the problem ended. My only evidence that it wasn’t always me comes from the fact that the majority of my team complained of the same issues and there has been high turnover in the 2 years I’ve been here. (The only members of the team who are still here from when I started are 4 out of 12.) I definitely made some mistakes, which I think I have learned from in my 2 years here, but there are also still some things that leave a bad taste in my mouth that I hope to forget over time.

    1. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

      Gah, it’s “where me being the problem starts and where the company being the problem ends”. Autocorrect.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The more distance between you and that first place of dysfunction, the better it gets. I promise, once you have shaken off the nerves and it’s further in your rear view mirror, you’ll get it.

      It was awful leaving my first long term, permanent position. Then when I moved and was thrust into a similar role, I had massive panic attacks that I’d call my mom crying over. I even contemplated a mega commute to go back to one of my old jobs, lol [I laugh because it’s hilarious when I’m in a sound mindset, it’s so extra and over the top reaction, anxiety is stupid and I hate it, so I laugh at it when I can.]

      Time really does heal. You don’t usually forget but you see it in another light. Usually a “WTF was that even” light.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      Oh the “me” problem! I’ve been in “real” jobs since 2012 and I still can’t quite pinpoint the “me” problem.

      As you said, the external clues can help tell you when it’s not just you.

      Good luck! I hope you start to recover from the dysfunction soon.

    4. Platypus Enthusiast*

      First of all, congratulations on the new position! I’m sure advice from AAM has been really helpful, but remember, YOU are the person this company is hiring because YOU are awesome. Coming out of a dysfunctional workplace can be really disconcerting, honestly. The best thing I learned is to quietly observe the behavioral of people who are in roles at a similar level to yours, and observing how higher-ups interact with them- what behaviors are welcomed? Observing normal workplace practices made me realize how dysfunctional my previous workplace was, honestly.

      If you have any questions, figure out who a good person on your team might be to ask! You can always ask the AAM community, as well. And everyone makes mistakes- literally, everyone. It’s normal. You sound like you’ve learned from your past mistakes, which is what you should be doing. Mistakes aren’t necessarily something you should always cringe at when you reflect on them, because they can help us grow and learn! It’s likely that you will make mistakes in the new role, but it’s most important to recognize them, accept responsibility, and learn. You’re going to be great!

  82. Clever Pseudonym Goes Here*

    Posted this on last Friday’s thread… on Monday, so repeating it now: anyone have advice on cover letters for internal applications? (Or if anyone can direct me to a previous post- tried the search function but there were enough results I wouldn’t be surprised if I’d missed it.)

    Applying for a job in a different department at my Large State University, very similar on paper to my current one but with somewhat more responsibility (and hopefully pay). I’ve worked with two people in that department before (transitioning a function from my office to theirs, not as long-term coworkers) but one I believe has since retired, and I have no idea if the other is involved in the hiring process at all. I’m struggling with whether/how much to refer to that, as well as how to talk about my enthusiasm for the ‘company’ (I do actually believe in the importance of public higher ed, but saying that straight out feels unbearably corny, and I don’t have any particular passion for one department over the other).

    1. Reba*

      I wouldn’t mention the coworkers. Maybe note just that you have interacted with the department before, as part of why you are interested in the role or became aware of their function.

      You want to support the mission of Big Old State, right? That makes sense, it’s not wildly corny! (Unless you are a Husker)

    2. Daisy-dog*

      For me, I would write it like a normal cover letter except I can be more specific about accomplishments. I also highlight what I enjoy about the company as a current employee – the values, the mission, etc. I think you can talk about your passion for higher education in a less corny way, but it would likely be appreciated since you are a current employee that still feels passionate about the work. I would not mention working with those individuals specifically, but just the project that was done with that department.

      Hard to say if anything should be changed considering it is higher education.

  83. High flying*

    It looks like my husband might be offered a dream job in tech, but it looks like he might have to travel 15 times a year. It is a remote position and the travel would be to headquarters. If he takes the job I wonder that if would be worth thinking about moving. Based on where we are now there are no direct flights between our two cities, so the flights all have at least 2 stops and take 7-8 hours. I’m wondering if he will burn out quickly. I’m currently working and a high performer and am confident I could find another position if need be. But we also have 3 elementary age kids who might struggle with the adjustment. We could move closer to headquarters where he could still be remote and just go into the office as needed. Thoughts on how to weigh the pros and cons? He was referred to the job by a friend who works there, who has told us that hubby is the strongest candidate so we’ll see what happens. Him and his friend would be at the same level of management, reporting to the same boss but with their own teams. Thoughts?

    1. CatCat*

      If he takes the job, I’d give it a few months and then evaluate. If it turns out the flights are starting to burn him out, you can start making a plan then. It would give you time to start job searching, talk to your kids about the move, and prepare for a move after the school year ends.

      1. WellRed*

        Agreed. I also think elementary school kids can usually adjust quickly, better than tweens or teens.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      This totally depends on you and your husband. 15 trips a year with long travel days wouldn’t make me or my husband blink, but I know other folks would find that much more difficult (especially with little kids!).

    3. Anono-me*

      I agree that playing it by ear at first makes sense . But a few questions you might want to consider:

      How long will he be going on these 15 trips?

      How much will your kids be affected by his being gone that much?

      Are you familiar with or do you have family in any of the new cities you are considering?

      Good luck however it was up.

      Anecdotally, I found the family moves when I was younger to be easier than the ones when I was older.

      1. High flying*

        Thanks all! I think just seeing how it goes for a while then making a decision after that. I’m not sure how long each trip lasts so we’ll have to look into that. We don’t have family in the new city (or the one we are currently in). But yeah, maybe we’ll give it half a year then go from there.

  84. WorkingGirl*

    More of a rant, since I’m already getting it handled, but…

    So I work at a small company: boss, who is owner/president (FT), one VP (FT), three directors (including me; all FT), two assistants (both PT; one 3.5 days a week, one 2 days a week). No official receptionist, so when the phones ring, we all (except the VP, who definitely put in his time and answered the phones for several years before he was VP) take turns answering the phones. Nobody LIKES answering the phones (it’s a distraction!) but we’re all supposed to pitch in and do it.

    The VP and all of us directors have various days where we work remote so it just so happened that on Tuesday, it was me (2 yrs, 9 months) and New Director (5 months), no one else in the office. I answered 3 calls in a row and asked ND to help answer calls… he gave me some excuse about “not feeling well.” Ok, but he was well enough to drive 45 minutes to the office and well enough to speak to a client who later asked for him directly. And our boss is SUPER understanding about letting people work from home that day if they’re sick… so I’m not buying that he was “too sick” to pick up a few calls and say “Alpaca Marketing, who’s calling?”.

    I answered 12 calls on Tuesday. That was a HUGE interruption to my day! I talked to our VP on wednesday who agreed that yeah, ND needs to help answer calls and pull his weight. So hopefully it gets better over the next week. I feel kind of petty but I’ve started noting who answers calls each day, just because if I’m going to go to VP I want “data” not just “I feel like ND isn’t pulling his weight.”

    TBH thank god both assistants are in today since they’re both CHAMPS but, goddamit, I wish ND would just answer the phone sometimes too. I think he thinks he’s “above” it, but (as our VP agreed), he’s not. Oy.

    1. Mae*

      Sympathies. Answering the phone is one of my many (many) duties and I have a counterpart who also helps to answer. If one of is out and we need to transfer the phones or ask someone to cover while we have lunch, people get extremely UPSET because no one around here wants to help. It’s 30 minutes or less so I can have sandwich. Let one of their friends drop by or call and it’s talk, talk, talk until I want to scream.

      Help answer the phone ND!!

      1. WorkingGirl*

        Ugh! Thank you. I don’t mind answering the phones but- ND is a guy, about 9-10 years older than me (woman), and a part of me feels like he thinks it defaults to “my job” since I’m younger/female? Even though the SOP in our office is new people answer phones. And he’s not even “above” me- I’m pretty sure he gets paid more than I do, but we’re on the same “level.”

  85. Zap R.*

    I got left out of the company Christmas party to watch the phones and I’m very sad about it.

    Just wanted to vent in a semi-anonymous setting.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What?

      They legit just left you [or anyone] out because they couldn’t be bothered to deal with things going to voicemail for an hour or however long the party is? That’s awful. That’s worse than all those offices where the person in charge of birthday/celebration cards get looked over.

      We just put an out of office message on the GD phone line if necessary, we don’t shackle someone to the phone and go “HA HA, Denise, see you when we get back from the festivities!”

      1. Zap R.*

        Yeah, the kicker is we had no phone calls, no guests, and no deliveries in that time (Save for someone’s personal Amazon order.)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s so gross.

          After I responded, my only question was “Unless you’re in some kind of emergency services setup, then you should have a cellphone to carry with you at least…” which this confirms you are most likely in a setup that doesn’t require such strong phone coverage.

          If it’s critical coverage, then you don’t do off-site parties anyways. Do things in waves and have it in the employee breakroom or conference room whatever. I’m sorry they did this to you!

    3. Ama*

      I would make sure whoever put you on coverage knows that there were literally no calls or business deliveries and ask nicely that maybe next year we could figure out an alternative option for coverage that doesn’t mean one person doesn’t get to go to the party.

      To be honest, I’d be mad enough that I’d make sure everyone in the office knows I didn’t get to go to the party and see if anyone was willing to raise a stink on my behalf

    4. Autumnheart*

      You’d think they could at least ask for volunteers. Surely there’s at least one employee who isn’t a party-lover, and would be fine with babysitting the front desk for a few hours in exchange for …I dunno, the company buying them lunch or whatever. It shouldn’t just be delegated to one unlucky person–not without an attractive consolation prize make up for it.

  86. Parachoote*

    Managers and execs who became first time parents: what was the best or most helpful way your employees managed up once you got past parental leave period and into the months of less sleep, same hours of work?

  87. Personal Best In Consecutive Days Lived*

    Has anyone noticed a new feature in Gmail that I like to call the Gumption plug-in?
    I’m looking for a job right now and I exchanged a couple emails with the hiring nanager about a job I applied for. The last email in our exchange is one I sent to him answering his questions; now the ball is in his court. No problems so far.
    For a while this email would be highlighted with orange text saying “You sent this email 10 days ago. Follow up?”
    No! No Gmail, and stop tempting me!
    Gmail isn’t doing it now that it’s been more than 2 weeks but ugh. Not a helpful addition.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      LOL, this happened to me awhile back and I was like “Wait, what?” I hadn’t even thought of what it would be like for job seekers!

      My email was a complaint to a service department…that was never responded to. So the “Follow up?” push was a “Oh, it’s been 5 days eh? Time for a bad Yelp review I guess.” So Gmail is trolololing like that.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      It’s been doing that to me for a while. It annoys the hell out of me. No, Google, I do not need to follow up on an email I sent myself to save a link to a file, thanks, that’s super weird. Nor do I need to follow up on the thank you email I sent to Rando Clothing Company to ask about sizing.

      The *idea* is potentially useful, but it’s applied so heavily it’s incredibly annoying & useless.

    3. Blarg*

      You can shut it off in settings. I don’t remember where, but it’s a good idea to go through all the settings anyway … all kinds of “surprises” to be found in how Google knows all.

      1. Deb Morgan*

        If you go to settings, under “General” there’s two boxes to uncheck next to “Nudges”: Suggest emails to reply to and suggest emails to follow up on. Once you uncheck those boxes, the gumption alerts should go away.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      I’d seen that awhile back and laughed at it. I like your Gumption plug-in description.
      Just today noticed actual auto-correct instead of just spell check.
      *sigh* if only the rest of it wasn’t so damned convenient.

    5. noahwynn*

      Outlook started doing that when my company moved to Office365 too! They call it “Insights”. Umm, leave me alone and let me manage my own work. They’ll bring back Clippy next.

  88. workerbee*

    I am in a small organization organized around departments, and some of those are less relevant now that they once were because of industry change. The administration is floating the idea of new organization that would be more functional, but also organized around self-interests to promote more fluidity. I can see how in the ideal world that would be great but have some concerns as well (I mean, we already have people who do the barely minimum, that is my main concern [this is a larger issue with the organization I can’t do anything about]). Would you have any experience of “teams”? Would you have any literature that might be helpful for me to try to understand/frame/not get run over in this process?

  89. Justme, The OG*

    Today is my last day in my current position. I’m sad to be leaving, but excited to be learning new things.

  90. Environmental Compliance*

    My interview went really well! They are very interested, I’m very interested, the only unfortunate thing is that they weren’t planning on hiring until late winter, so it’s still a couple months off. But from what the company said, I basically have it if I want it come February/March. It’s consulting work, and would be mostly industrial regulatory compliance (which I do enjoy), but also a smattering of things like wetland delineations, which is very, very exciting to me. It feels like a great fit! And I really liked the people.

    I’m still putting out applications elsewhere, but I feel like I have some sort of end date/goal now for Current Job, which feels great.

    Also, Hubs got designated as Project Lead for a Bid Deal Quality Project at his job, and the President of company is involved – and has been vocally approving of Hubs + Hubs work. I’m very proud of him! It’s something Hubs enjoys and was looking to (someday) move into, so I’m very happy for him that he’s gotten this project (which is technically out of his area) and that he’s getting good attention from the higher ups.

  91. The New Wanderer*

    Note to job seekers and networkers, here’s what not to do:

    Don’t cold-email someone without clarifying how you got their contact info. How did you get my email?
    Don’t cold-email someone and start out by using an informal greeting when you don’t know them. We have zero connection, we’re not on a first name basis yet.
    Don’t cold-email someone at a massive, global company if they a) don’t work in recruiting and b) don’t work in your field. We have a job search function for that, I’m not going to do your searching for you.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      We have zero connection, we’re not on a first name basis yet.

      I’m curious, how would you want to be addressed, if not by your first name? In the U.S., first names are standard for business emails, even cold emails, unless the individual has a title (e.g. a PhD, a MD). Outside of the U.S., I realize that Mr./Ms. is the standard.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I myself am in the US but the person who emailed me is in the UK, so maybe it’s more common to use first names there? It just struck me as an overly casual header since the overall tone of the email was more formal, almost cover letter-like “I present myself as a possible candidate for some job in X field at your company.” And combined with the fact that it’s a stranger asking me for a professional favor, it put me off. If it had been from someone I’d met at a conference or was a more general type of networking email, I probably wouldn’t have thought much about it. For example, I just had a LinkedIn request from someone who mentioned finding some research of mine interesting, and their use of my first name didn’t seem out of place.

        I do have a title (PhD) but since I have no way of knowing how this person knows me, I didn’t assume they would use it. I did expect to see “Dear Ms. Wanderer.”

        1. fhqwhgads*

          I have literally never received a work-related email that addressed me as “Dear Ms. LastName”. It may vary by field, but I’ve always had office jobs and this would not be the norm in my industry. Explaining how/why they got my info/expect me to help them in any way, sure. But address vis firstname in email only is absolutely normal to me.

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Hm, I’m also in the U.S. and using “Ms. Wanderer” in an email or having someone address me as “Mr. Tree Hugger” would put me off. So, this might be a personal preference you may want to examine, as I think using first names is pretty standard these days in the U.S.

  92. Tris Prior*

    If the C-level execs of one’s company are “highly encouraging” everyone to read a specific business book, who should pay for it – employees or the company?

    Let’s assume very large corporate employer. Who, BTW, has left employees kind of panicking about their jobs/livelihoods recently due to a very unexpected spate of layoffs.

    1. Goldfinch*

      What should happen: company pays
      What will likely happen: employee pays
      What I’d do: buy the book and bury it in my expense report

      1. Platypus Enthusiast*

        Ideally, they should pay, but realistically you probably will. I would try and borrow it from a local library- even if they don’t have it on-site, the interlibrary loan system is amazing, and many libraries are part of a digital library system.

  93. OTGW*

    Straight to the point but: Just wondering if anyone’s ever had a new director/big boss that’s ever given them the Bad Vibes right off the bat? How did that go? We got a new director just this past week and…. he’s giving me those Bad Vibes.

    We’re in a customer service-y (not retail, but not white collar office either) job and there’s only 20 of us, so we generally work closely with the director. Whenever I interact with him (briefly) he’s been uncomfortably close. I’m probably reading too much into that (I’m a young woman) but I still Do Not Like. And I’m just wondering how many of you have been in similar situations?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Um, yep. There ended up being a call to HR to complain about her abusive behaviors towards staff, and HR started “coaching”. Which basically means a PIP – fix it or you’re getting fired. She ended up quitting on her own, only giving 1 week notice (2 weeks is standard, and for her position, more is usual).

      She’s gone. There was quiet celebration.

    2. Ama*

      I had a boss once that everyone else loved but there was something about him that seemed off to me — I couldn’t ever put my finger on it, it wasn’t that he made me uncomfortable physically, there was just something about the particular way he was nice that seemed kind of insincere, and that made me wary.

      Yeah, before he joined my department he turned out to have been embezzling from his old department for over a decade — some of his “niceness” included doing things his admin staff should have been doing for him that would have allowed someone to notice that he was double-charging expenses. When all this came out I realized there had been a few instances where he had definitely been testing to see how familiar I was with our financial policies and if I would call out irregularities in his paperwork. (I also now believe he intentionally scuttled a promotion I had been promised by his predecessor because it would have given me budget access, but at the time he blamed it on some BS administrative policy and acted all frustrated on my behalf.)

      So I would stay on your guard, hopefully it is just your gut being a little overactive, but better to be safe than sorry.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Yes, I’ve been there.
      Trust your gut; something is off. Tell him to give you more space. Use any words and tone you choose but TELL him to give you more personal space. Start documenting your experiences, just in case. I hope you won’t need your notes in the future, but you don’t know at this point.
      Your gut is trying to tell you something. Don’t ignore it. Do what you need to protect yourself and your job.
      Sending solidarity thoughts.

    4. Not All*

      Yup. It did not get better. We all got incredibly agile at hold clipboards, coffee mugs, etc between us to ward him off. “Do not touch me again. Ever.” was uttered by many people, male & female. He was a permanent federal government employee and in just 8 months in that position was within a couple weeks of the papework/process being completed for his termination when he managed to get a job with another agency. He took early retirement less than a year later. You still hear stories about him almost 10 years later.

      I hope yours goes better!

    5. Clever Name*

      Trust your gut. Those bad vibes are coming from somewhere. I had a boss who would stand uncomfortably close when I first started. So I would step back or scooch my chair away. Fortunately he got the hint and stopped doing it. He is testing your boundaries.

    6. Arts Akimbo*

      A lot of harm happens when women disregard our instincts with regard to people who give us a bad feeling. We’re taught to give people a chance, to be nice, to be forgiving of creepy behaviors, but what we really should be doing is listening to ourselves and protecting ourselves. Set firm physical boundaries with him right off the bat. When he gets too close, put on a big smile and say “I have a large personal space bubble. Please take a step back. Thanks for understanding.” If he’s not a creep, he will take this well. If he doesn’t take it well, his creepy intentions are confirmed.

  94. 29 and Optimistic*

    Any insight or advice on how to deal with disgruntled, complaining coworkers?

    Joined this office a few months ago (relocated from another branch) and my coworkers, while friendly and welcoming, complain way tooooo much! They do have cause though: morale is incredibly low with the company going through major, global restructuring and massive changes taking place. We’re overworked, everyone is pulling overtime as Q4 is our busiest time of year, and the massive changes (facilities being moved to another location, work processes being changed to compensate, moving to different technology, etc.) make everything harder. People were laid off too. To be fair, everyone was expecting growing pains and the company and managers are lacking in some areas when handling the transition. But frankly, the amount of complaining from my coworkers is a lot!

    The crux is that people’s unhappiness with the company was already existing. This recent transition is just bringing all the unhappiness to the fore, not the sole cause. I suspect that even after everything dies down and stabilizes after this major, once-in-a-generation restructuring, people will still be bitter and disgruntled.

    What I want to know is how much weight should I put into people’s complaints? Things ARE rough now, but I wonder how much is just people complaining because of they’ve been around for decades and are comfortable and disgruntled? For context, a lot of coworkers have been here for decades (20-30+ years) and older (40s to 60s) (I’m one of probably two people under 30). What I mean is, if things were really that bad, why have they been around for all these years? Our job is a comfortable, cushy office job, a lot of admin work with average pay, but secure.

    1. ...*

      Nothing to add except that I’m 29 and going to add “and optimistic to everytime I think about my age. 29! and optimistic!!

    2. Reba*

      It sounds like there is an entrenched culture of complaining AND also some legit gripes about difficult changes. As you get more experienced there you will be able to distinguish between “real problems” and “complaining in lieu of conversation.” If there are any people who are the like way worse than most, I’d avoid them socially…. just for your own sanity. But at the same time, people might see a failure to commiserate as you not being part of the group or not being on their side. How difficult! Can you try to make yourself a boring recipient of complaints? Is there someone you talk to regularly that you could say tell that you’re trying to reset and complain less? Heck, make it a holiday resolution. Good luck!

  95. Depressed and anon*

    Other than Flexjobs (which costs money) what resources do folks know of for finding remote work? Are there any contract/temp agencies that specialize in remote assignments?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’m afraid I can’t give you an answer about companies that specialize in remote work, but the following sites have been recommended by other AAM readers in the past:
      Amylynn/Annika (list sites and have a blacklist of scams) – http://www.amylynn.org/home/
      Dream Home Based Work (lists work-from-home jobs) – http://www.dreamhomebasedwork.com
      Jobspresso (programming/design/program managering/marketing)
      National Capitol Contracting (does transcription)
      We Work Remotely – http://www.weworkremotely.com
      Working Nomads – http://www.workingnomads.com

  96. It All Sounds Like A Lot of Work*

    This question is for my husband: he works in a a company that runs 24/7. Their shifts are day, swing, and graveyard. He is in his second year with the company and had previously had day shifts due mostly to luck of the draw and training he was getting, etc. The company assigns shifts every December so we’re coming up on that time of year. My husband is 22 on the list of people vying for shifts and they get to pick in order of seniority. There are only 18 day shift slots so he’s pretty much guaranteed not to get a day shift.

    The other side of this is that my husband is high-functioning but very much on the autism spectrum. This makes him an extremely loyal, fastidious, and detail-oriented employee who shows up on them every day but also gives him extreme anxiety when something changes as significantly as working nights or swing when he’s only worked day shifts in his career (jobs prior to this one as well). For the past month, I’ve watched him become more and more agitated and panicked. He’s having panic attacks, he’s not a functional human at home, we’ve upped his anxiety meds, he’s gone to the doctor, he’s talked to his therapist. He can hardly hold it together as he dreads having his schedule changed. It sounds so minor but the poor man is a wreck.

    I know we could get a letter from his therapist and doctor saying he has these diagnosed disabilities (autism, severe anxiety, and depression) that are pretty much not a problem as long as he’s got the day shift. He’s afraid that he’ll get fired for asking for this accommodation. I think it’s a small price to pay for a normally great employee. What do you think?

    1. Reba*

      I mean, the whole point of the ADA is that you cannot be fired for asking for accommodation… right?

      Is your spouse anxious about the change for the sake of change, or worried about the actual night shift and what it would be like? Asking because I’m not sure that his disabilities are going to lead to “must work day shift,” (the way it would if, say, someone could not drive or travel at night). But it sounds like “must not alter schedule” would be the accommodation he wants, and I have no idea if that is possible for this business.

      But the company must enter into a process with your spouse to determine what accommodations they can make.

      I wonder if gaming out what you all would do *if* he goes to a different shift — being really realistic and not catastrophizing — would help at all with the anxiety.

      1. It All Sounds Like A Lot of Work*

        Hi Reba,

        Yes, it’s a little bit of “change” that causes the problem but the main problem with swing and night shift for him is that he wouldn’t see me or our baby much and wouldn’t be able to help at all with pick up/drop off at daycare. I’ve tried talking about how we could make it work for him (and us) and trying to find solutions that would work but the spiraling anxiety is so bad that the reasonable solutions aren’t getting through. He currently has 2 days off during the week rather than the weekend and that was hard enough. Now that the probable schedule is nights or weekends, it’s 10x worse. I get it. It’s all about quality of life, right?

        He knows that quitting isn’t an option for us right now; but we have talked about starting to look for another job if there isn’t an accommodation they can do and he’s put on a shift for nights or weekends.

        To me, I just figure, “OK, I can power through, it’s just a few years in an otherwise pretty good job;” but for him, it’s an insurmountable obstacle.

        1. valentine*

          Ask for the accommodation without specifying the reasons. If they want details, consider how that might backfire. If he gets days, he should still continue therapy to learn coping skills and to manage the anxiety.

          1. valentine*

            And the employees should request standard rotation. Wouldn’t your husband fare better if he knew he’d have days every other quarter?

    2. noahwynn*

      The other difficult part will be his coworkers if he somehow gets to skip seniority. In my experience (paramedic), seniority is everything and people feel like they’ve put in their time and deserve the perks.

      If it would be a long-term disruption to his ability to function at work, absolutely ask for accommodation. However, if it will just be a tough few weeks of adjustment and learning new norms, deal with it however you can. I’m not saying that to be callous, just a realist. It might hurt your husband’s career trajectory to be seen as difficult. I don’t think he would be fired, but maybe just treated a bit differently if he asks for accommodation.

    3. Fellow autistic*

      I work in a job that requires 24/7 coverage as well, and my shift is the overnight shift. Personally I love it.

      I, too, am wondering if it’s the unknown as to what shift he’ll get, plus the change/transition, rather than the outcome that is the actual stressor. That would make me extremely anxious.

      I don’t know if you’ve tried this, but one thing that helps me is to plan. So in your case, I would say, what would our life look like if I got the swing shift? How would our schedules change? Maybe even write something up! And then do the same for the night shift. That can help take some of the uncertainty out – he still won’t know what shift he’ll end up with, but what will happen if he gets something other than day will be more predictable.

      Also, I’m not clear on this from your post, but do people only get one shift (day/swing/night) or can they get a mix? Having to shift your sleep schedule to deal with different shifts would be super stressful for me, and that’s something I might request an accommodation over. Legally they cannot fire him for asking for an accommodation, but companies can and do find “other” reasons to fire employees once this has happened, so it is, unfortunately, a legitimate fear. However, if he has established himself as valuable to the employer, it’s less likely.

  97. Camellia*

    Question about perception:

    I am/was a natural blonde, I have very fair skin, and now my hair is silver/white. I work in IT. If I want to change jobs, I’m competing with people 25 to 35 years younger than I am.

    If I bought a great, natural-as-possible wig to use for interviews, in an appropriate blonde color, and you hired me, what would you think if I showed up to work the first day in my natural silver/white hair?

    1. dinoweeds*

      I would be surprised for sure. Not necessarily worth saying anything to you about it since I wouldn’t know you well, but I would definitely notice. I would also make sure that it fits correctly, otherwise your interviewer will be distracted by an ill fitting wig instead of paying attention to what you’re saying.

      All that being said, I think you should just go in with your natural hair – it sounds pretty!

    2. London working*

      Your natural hair sounds bang on trend. I’d acsessorise it with hipster glasses and a little scarf and rock the interview

    3. Goldfinch*

      I would think it odd. Your own hair in a very of-the-moment cut would be better. IME, senior tech people tend to signal that they’re “with it” through their style choices–they’re either super stylish, or so outdated that it’s a hip affectation. In that context, hiding yourself behind a wig would read as a misstep.

      Also, are you experienced with wigs? They can be uncomfortable if not done properly. An interview situation is not the time to start dealing with an overheated, itchy scalp.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      Wig? I’d be surprised.
      Dye job that slowly fades/grows out? Wouldn’t blink twice.

      I can’t say much. I’m 48 and my beard is mostly white. I’m getting ready for interviews and am contemplating a little mascara to obscure but not obliterate the grey.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yeah, at most you might consider a temporary hair wash in a blond shade. I dye my hair but also use a color gloss conditioner to mute the gray/white roots and my white streak, which looks like a highlighted blond piece at my temple. It washes out in a few shampoos.

        But in general, I think you’d be fine with your natural color!

    6. Digley Doowap*

      I’m surprised by the answers above after recalling the thread about a person who dyed their hair blue, purple and green and got nothing but big thumbs up from AAM.

      Are used to dye my hair so I could compete with the younger crowd and then gave up; just got too tiring and everyone knew I had gray hair anyway.

      1. fposte*

        I don’t think it’s opposition to changing hair at all; it’s the change in appearance between the interview and first day that’s raising questions for people. I actually don’t think it would be a big deal either way, but I also don’t think it’s worth the trouble to wig up, either.

      2. Not All*

        It’s the wig part that would concern me. Woman, 40+ wearing a wig signals “cancer” to a lot of people. That’s not something you want interviewers wondering about when they are considering you. That’s not a risk I’d take personally.

    7. Wishing You Well*

      Age-ism is quite virulent these days, especially in IT and other tech jobs. My best advice is to have your hair look as young as possible in interviews and keep it young once you have the job. Older workers are frequently laid off and let go. Even established men in tech are dying their hair, in hopes that they’re not tagged as too old and slated for the next layoff. I realize this advice is contrary to others here but this is my honest opinion.
      Best wishes.

    9. Mockingjay*

      I am middle-aged, have completely white hair, am also fair skinned, and work in IT / comms industry.

      I decided a few years ago to go with my natural hair. I keep it well groomed in current styles. I wear solids in deep jewel tones and ‘business black’ to set off my complexion and not look washed out. Seems to work; as a contractor I’ve changed jobs a few times. Interviews always focused on my credentials, not my appearance.

      Keep your hair and rock the interview!

  98. lemon*

    LW5 here from Wednesday’s post (“5. How should I respond to this note from a hiring manager?”)

    I heard back from HR yesterday and the apparent hold-up on their end is that a C-suite executive wants to have a “30-minute chat” with me prior to a formal offer. Typically, this doesn’t happen for this position but this position does work with the C-suite and the exec’s specific team. I’ve never interviewed at this level and am a tad nervous. HR mentioned that the team and hiring manager were thoroughly impressed with my experience and are excited for me and that this “interview” is the last step. Thoughts or advice on how/what to prepare prior to the phone call other than the basics?

    1. TCO*

      It might not be a whole new set of interview questions–you might be just asked to repeat or clarify answers you’ve given before. Or they might be looking for a less structured chat to get a better sense of how well your personality would fit with the team.

      I’ve also sometimes had these “last step” calls be about clearing up something that might have been unresolved or left them with more questions after the interviews. Sometimes this has been wanting to dive a little more deeply into a very specific area of my experience, or make sure we’re still on the same page about something like salary or schedule. If there are things like that that you sensed might be areas of concern during the interview process, you might want to be prepared to be a little more specific or candid than you were able to be in earlier stages.

      Good luck!

      1. lemon*

        Thank you! I was able to receive clarification and information from HR and it sounds exactly like what you said – a chance for the VP to get to know me and further explain her role in relation to the position.

  99. Feeling Stuck*

    Has anyone ever dealt with a crippling fear of leaving their current job for a new one? I’ve been with my employer 10 years and have been promoted in that time and have received regular raises and bonuses. I’m satisfied with my salary. I have excellent benefits, and the commute isn’t bad (in a city famous for awful commutes). But the workload is stressful, and the work/life balance is frequently terrible. I would like to find something less stressful, but I’m terrified to leave.

    I was laid off from my last job during the recession when that company laid off about 1/3 of the employees. It was scary, and I don’t ever want to go through it again. Back then, I was a renter and my landlord cut me some slack with my rent until I was back on my feet. Now I own a home, and if I lost my job I would lose the home (I’m single, so only 1 paycheck coming in). My parents are now retired and not in a position to help me financially if something happened. They don’t have the space for me to move in with them, and my HOA prohibits us from renting out our houses. I’m trying to pay off my student loan and some other debt so I can increase my emergency fund.

    My current job is ideal in many ways–my desired field, the commute, the salary, and benefits. But I keep wondering if I should move on. I’ve applied for a few things over the years, but the positions haven’t panned out. And it’s been quite a while now since I’ve applied for anything else. Part of me wants to play it safe and stay in a place where I feel safe. I have so much more to lose than I did before.

    Am I crazy to leave a job that’s basically good and stable in search of greener pastures? Or am I crazy to stay in a stressful job that leaves me too worn out to cook or socialize much? I’m only 40, so I anticipate working another 25 years.

    1. irene adler*

      You should consider at least monitoring posted jobs and selectively apply where you feel it would be an improvement to your current situation.
      I know, it’s hard – trading the devil you know for the devil you don’t. I’m trying to find that “improved work situation” myself.
      One thing I do is regularly apply/interview for jobs that might fit the bill. The result is I’m learning how to better gauge whether I’d like the job. Picking up on subtleties that I didn’t see before. I’m getting better at interviewing too! This also helps me to size up new job ads in terms of what I want to do next.

      Does playing it safe where you are now offer opportunities for professional growth? If not, down the line this might cause a potential employer to wonder why you didn’t move on to ‘greener pastures’ where there are avenues for growth. I work with folks who are ‘stuck’ in the jobs they’ve held for 30 years because they did not pursue these avenues. And they all have a very negative attitude. Hard to work with them every day. Don’t become like they are.

  100. Over Analyzer*

    I need some advice regarding gender identity in the workplace so I can ensure an accepting work environment for a potential new hire (I’m not sure where they are at in the interview/role negotiation stage or when their start date would be, just that they are very talented). I work in a small branch of a mid-size company and while our office has a lot of diversity regarding women and POC compared to the main office and/or the rest of our industry, this would be our first employee at this location who is part of the LGBT+ community. A lot of our employees are newer to a professional environment (It isn’t uncommon for me to have to correct someone on issues regarding to race/women/politics/religion) and probably new to this situation as well. I’m temporarily sort of unofficially in charge of this office (no one actually reports to me, but they are happy to let me run things and handle onboarding new hires). I’m a bit prone to over-analyzing so I’m hoping to listen to commenters rather get stuck in my own head loop attempting to predict the future.

    1) What are the biggest things that I should be aware of here? My general view is that someone’s gender identity is none of my business other than my responsibility to use the correct name/pronouns and for everyone to be treated equally. I’m realizing this means that I don’t know as much I should about these things.

    2) Is it too blunt to ask someone “What pronouns do you prefer?” It feels like the most straightforward way to find out, but I worry that it may have some subtext, like I’m pointing out the mismatch between assigned gender and chosen appearance. Is there a better way to ask about pronouns? I’ll be the person introducing them to the rest of the office, so I want to make sure I’m using the correct one from the start.

    3) While there are people in the office who may be confused by someone who is trans/gender fluid/non-binary/etc with unknown levels of open-mindedness, I feel like I have a handle on them on enough that it won’t affect the new hire (they’ve been ok with me correcting any other issues and seem aware that they have been in relatively isolated areas). The person I am most concerned with is Bob – someone who tends to be performative about his Very Accepting and Super Modern views and very resistant to any attempt to temper these performative statements. Think the type of guy who mansplains to women how they are being discriminated against. He’s trying so hard to prove that he isn’t biased against any group that he actually comes across as more biased (because that’s the main thing on his mind when talking to a woman or POC). Bob also likes to know all the details of everyone’s lives and his first conversations with new hires sound more like interviews. I can guarantee that during the first week Bob will either start up a very uncomfortable conversation with the new hire that delves into their personal life and gender, or start an unprompted lecture to someone in the office about gender identity. I can’t keep an eye on Bob full time and neither of us has a manager currently so I don’t know how to contain him.

    Help? How do we not screw up and make this person uncomfortable? It would be a lot easier if we were in the main office, where there are way more people and a more interesting culture, but that is not an option. Or if there had been more time to better meld the personalities at the current office into a culture – we are very much just a group of random individuals at the moment.

    1. London working*

      Are they out? If so I think you should probably tell the employee that you want them to feel comfortable but you don’t know what the specifics of that look like, tell them you expect some awkwardness and ask to work together on mitigating it.

      Gender neutral bathrooms are an obvious thing

    2. Commuter*

      One little thing – I’d recommend you leave the word ‘prefer’ out and just ask “What are your pronouns?” We used to ask for preferred pronouns but one of our staff members who uses less common pronouns suggested this phrasing. My pronoun isn’t ‘preferred’ it’s just my pronoun.

      1. machinations and palindromes*

        Ha, I think I’m the most laid back trans person ever on pronouns.

        Other person: “Which pronouns do you like?”
        Me: “Oh, any of them are fine! I tend to default to this one, but, honestly, whatever you want.”
        Other person: *frustrated ally noises*

        1. Kiwiii*

          dasdlkaj in a phonecall before my interview for my current job, the HR contact asked which pronouns I use (I use a gender neutral nickname for most things), and I just went “oh, whatever”.

      2. Over Analyzer*

        Thanks for the improved phrasing! Removing that word does make the question seem less awkward.

    3. machinations and palindromes*

      I’m a little confused here, which might just be a reading comprehension problem. But, if this person is hired, it’s totally fine to reach out to them to say “we send out employee introductory e-mails, what name and pronouns would you like us to put”, then send that out. If you need to have 1:1 conversations with employees you think might be weird about it, do it before that person starts. If people mess up pronouns or the name, take them to the side and tell them to get better.

      And take Bob to the side and say you want to be welcoming, so let the new hire initiate any conversations about identity. If he wants to be performative, feed into his ego about wanting to be a good ally and let someone else set the pace. The only things your office needs to know is this person’s name and pronouns.

      And +1 to gender neutral bathrooms. But even if you can’t do those for whatever reason, make sure you come down like the wrath of god on anyone doing bathroom policing.

      1. machinations and palindromes*

        Oh, and speaking even more of bathrooms: if your office has menstrual products in the women’s bathroom, put some in the men’s room as well. Because you don’t know who might need them.

      2. Over Analyzer*

        I was a bit nervous and rambling so I’m not surprised that my post was not easy to understand. Sorry!

        Unfortunately I do not have the ability to contact the potential hire before they start. I usually find out the day before someone starts that I need to assign a desk. Sometimes I get a first name. I basically just made small talk with this candidate while they were waiting for an interview, which is the only reason I know about their candidacy. For all I know this person may not accept the offer and this might turn out to be a thought exercise.

        I wish I had influence over the bathroom situation! We are tiny tenants (10 people) in a much bigger building, so my company does not really have any sway in adding a gender neutral one. Maybe if we manage to grow into a bigger branch we can negotiate that in the future.

    4. Amy Sly*

      Could you send them an email asking if there’s anything that their coworkers should be aware of that isn’t obvious? (Not sure how to phrase this exactly.) Maybe list previous jobs, pronouns, marital status, parental status, medical concerns like hearing difficulties or face blindness as possibilities. Explain that the point is to give everyone a quick “cheat sheet” so that the newbie doesn’t have to have the same conversation a dozen times.

      1. Ramona Q*

        Many of these categories seem incredible invasive, Amy. This person’s coworkers don’t need their health history.

        1. Amy Sly*

          Obviously, they would be facts that the person would be comfortable sharing. But surely we’ve had enough letters along the lines of “I never told anyone I don’t recognize faces/have hearing problems/etc. and now it’s six months later and they just think I’m rude” that if someone has something like that they’d wish to share, it’s not a terrible thing to give them a place to share it.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      It is not necessarily too blunt to ask what pronouns are correct, but you cannot just ask that questions of someone you suspect is trans or non-binary because let’s be honest that means you’re only asking people who’s physical appearance doesn’t align to the gender norms of their clothes or style. So you have to ask pronouns of all new employees.

      I have realized it is kind for CIS people to put their pronouns in their email signature or state your pronouns when introducing yourself at a meeting where there are new people to make it the norm for everyone so that the people who have to state their pronouns aren’t the outliers and the ones whose pronouns don’t match the stereotypical gender identity.

      1. Jessen*

        I’d have questions even about that. For anyone whose preferred pronouns don’t match the ones expected based on their appearance, that means you’re having to ask yourself on the first day “do I want to out myself, or do I want to establish myself as a gender I’m not?” I don’t know if there’s an easy answer there.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          At least it’s allowing them to decide if they will be stealth (and be misidentified) or out. If you don’t ask, you’re assuming for them. But that is why you need to ask everyone and not just people you suspect.

    6. Blarg*

      It’s highly unlikely this is the first person in the LGBTQ+ community working for you. It’s just the first one you (think) you know about.

    7. Three owls in a trench coat*

      I’m concerned about Bob liking to “know all the details of everyone’s lives” because that could mean him asking extremely personal, offensive, and possibly illegal questions of this new hire. I’m wondering if it would be helpful to tell Bob ahead of time that he is absolutely not to ask certain questions of new hire (or anyone for that matter).

      Does your company have any sort of anti-discrimination policy, and is gender identity and expression covered? If not, it needs to be.

      See if you can get some sort of diversity training (I know, I know, groan) focusing on the LGBT+ community . It can actually be a good start for people in your business who know absolutely nothing about gender identity aside from “cis male” and “cis female.”

      Also seconding gender-neutral bathrooms and asking “What are your pronouns?” instead of “What are your preferred pronouns?”

    8. Kiwiii*

      One thing I noticed in your letter is that you’re assuming that this is the “first employee at this location who is part of the LGBT+ community” but you really don’t know that. As a bi woman dating a man, I look very much like a straight person but am not, and I don’t really talk about my sexuality at work because it’s not relevant.

      Also, instead of asking what pronouns they prefer, just ask them which ones they use/which ones they are. Make sure there’s a gender neutral or family bathroom somewhere nearby if you can, but don’t assume that they’re not comfortable in the one of their gender. Maybe talk with Bob about how you don’t want him to do that, it’s offensive if you can? Failing that, warn the new hire that he’s like that if you can and let them know that they don’t have to take part in Bob Time if they’re not feeling it.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Re warning the new hire about Bob Time — If I came into a new office and got warned that Bob is a racist sexist jerk up front, I’d be REAL damn concerned that they all know this and, rather than doing anything about him, just tell me that I don’t have to pay him any mind. Because, uh, it’s kind of the company’s responsibility to figure out a way to do something about Bob being a jerk, and not my responsibility to ignore it like it’s okay because that’s what everybody else does.

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yep. Plus, I’d be very uncertain about the person giving me that warning. I’ve been burned on that front before. The new hire doesn’t know the office politics, and doesn’t know if the OP is actually an unbiased source providing factual information.

  101. Recent PhD Grad*

    Hi, I’m looking for some advice job hunting post-PhD (biological sciences)/ help setting realistic job expectations. The institute I was based at has no careers service or alumni network so I don’t really have anyone to ask.

    I’m looking to move into policy. My actual work experience for this is limited to a 3 month internship I took last year and really excelled at. Obviously this isn’t enough to land a job, should I be looking for a longer internship (6 months?) or an assistant/ entry level role to help bolster my CV. Any advice or tips would be greatly appreciated.

        1. baby yoda*

          Darn, if only the word programme had been in your original post I never would’ve made such US-specific suggestions :) Good luck!

          1. Frankie Bergstein*

            Oh no, I definitely did the same thing! Only my LinkedIn suggestion is useful, I suppose. I hope some UK-based commenters find this and share more useful suggestions.

      2. Frankie Bergstein*

        Seconded! Also look at Pathways programs, CDC fellowships (e.g., Epidemic Intelligence Service), and potentially even government contractors. Of course, going to usajobs.gov and applying for jobs there is a good option provided you have some help in figuring out how to navigate that process. It’s slow, so I would do it only as part of a larger job search strategy.

        Meanwhile, looking around on LinkedIn for folks with career trajectories you want to emulate can be helpful — it’ll give you a good idea of potential job titles and companies.

  102. Sorority House Directors?*

    A colleague sent me an ad for a sorority house director, said she thinks I’d be great. I have zero experience in the Greek system. General thoughts/guidance on thinking about something like this? I’m looking for a transitional role, this wouldn’t have occurred to me.

    What I know: supervises 4 paid staff, responsible for security, supervise kitchen/meals, and a big one: live on site.
    I’ve browsed LinkedIn a bit for background and descriptions, haven’t found much.

    1. aarti*

      I’ve been in charge of a student dorm for a couple years. Some of the perks were: free housing, pleasant people, and lots of different aspects to the job so I didn’t get bored. Some challenges: wealthy/privileged kids treating you like a servant, lots of conflict resolution between students.

      I like working with teenagers/twenty somethings which I think is probably important too. Definitely check out the living quarters if you can, I know some setups where they have the directors living in a glorified dorm room themselves.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        In addition to the above, I would want to know more about the House Director’s role in discipline. What happens if there are allegations of hazing or sexual misconduct or any of the issues that plague college campuses and Greek life? How might the person in this role be involved in both the disciplinary side of things and the repercussions? What do you know about Greek life on this campus already – what is their reputation, have there been prior incidents, etc.

        1. Platypus Queen*

          In my experience – sorority house directors generally are not involved in discipline of that sort at all. Allegations of hazing or misconduct will be dealt with by the university/sorority HQ. However, IMO a house director can have a lot of positive impact on this issue just by being willing to stick their neck out and enforce the rules.

        2. MMB*

          House Directors have NO disciplinary responsibilities or authority. Discipline is strictly handled by the chapter council and CAB.

    2. Platypus Queen*

      Active sorority alumna here, working with a chapter at a major state university. House directors are the eyes on the ground for the sorority HQ, they run the house (security, food, repairs, maintenance) and ensure that the sorority and university rules are followed, and they are also the voice of authority/comfort with the girls. We love our house director and I can’t say enough about the good work she does.

      There are plenty of crappy house directors who are just semi-retired folks looking for free room and board and a regular paycheck. If you are a good one, you will be worth your weight in gold and you will have the opportunity to impact countless young women and improve their lives and college experiences. Our house director has a background in hospitality which I think has served her extremely well.

      A lot will depend on the culture of the individual sorority/chapter. Some sororities delegate a lot of the work to their local corporate board, in which case the alums will be the folks that you will have to interact with on a daily basis. Agreed that you should check out the living quarters in the house before you commit.

      1. MMB*

        Thank you, PQ that was a great explanation. The HD can absolutely help set the tone for a house and quietly influence the girls. There are a lot of great HD’s out there, but there are also a lot of mediocre or even truly terrible ones. Every house is different and the needs of each house are unique, so what they need and want from the HD varies widely. Do you have a ton of patience and energy? A good sense of humor? Organizational skills? Compassion? Empathy? Are you diplomatic (strong customer service skills can go a long way as an HD). Can you think ahead and plan strategically? Are you good at setting and respecting boundaries? It’s an awesome job for the right person, but the most important thing to remember is that the girls genuinely deserve someone who will care about them AND the facility. Oh, almost forgot, it’s a highly restrictive lifestyle – no male visitors overnight (sometimes not at all), no alcohol and very limited free time you are on 24/7 and will be dealing with everything from teaching people how to change a lightbulb, to containing a Norovirus outbreak and handling suicide attempts.

    3. Sorority House Directors?*

      Thanks very much. The scant info on a job description has clearly been written for people who know the system, so your descriptions have been helpful.

      It looks like this chapter has typically hired sorority alums there for grad school. How important/helpful do you see that to be? And, what kinds of roles might this lead to?

      Thanks again.

      1. Platypus Queen*

        At a smaller chapter/Greek system, managing a sorority house might possibly be done around school hours, and by somebody without much experience who is mostly being paid to be the adult on the scene and who really just wants room/board and some spending money while they finish graduate school. But at a bigger chapter, I would take a history of hiring grad student house directors as a possible red flag, because house director really is a professional-level job with no shortage of superficially qualified applicants, and if the house keeps hiring sorority grad students instead, that might say something worrisome about their expectations, the pay, or the working conditions at the house.

        As for what this could lead to….I think it really depends on the direction you want to go in, and on how you frame your resume. The chapter I work with has 200+ members and 50+ girls living in house. Our house director coordinates menus; plans events; drafts budgets; works with code enforcement and fire safety; supervises and hires employees; interacts with parents, sorority HQ staff, visiting alumnae, and university employees; and is the on-site counselor/parental figure/voice of authority/teacher for the girls. So transferable skills to management of any kind, hospitality, event planning, any kind of customer service work, teaching, counseling, etc. You are also going to have the opportunity to meet many, many people – people affiliated with various university offices, well-connected parents and alums, collegians who graduate and go off to good jobs in companies that you might be interested in, etc., and if your chapter is used to viewing house director as a “transitional” job, it may be a very conducive environment for you to gain and solidify skills, grow your network, and get your ducks in a row for the next gig.

        Good luck!

    4. MMB*

      Not sure if you’ll check back on this thread, but I woke up this morning and realized that I forgot to include some important questions you should ask during the interview.
      1. Is it a 10 month contract or a 12 month?
      2. Who’s in charge of summer cleaning and projects? What’s their current process?
      3. Do you have any weekends off during the school year OUTSIDE of or IN ADDITION to Thanksgiving, Christmas and Spring breaks. If so, how are those weekends covered? Who is responsible for finding and paying for coverage while you’re gone?
      4. Are you allowed to use the main kitchen on weekends etc.? In some houses you’re not, which means that unless you have your own kitchen you have to eat out on weekends and breaks.
      5. Is there a “house account” or are you expected to purchase items for the house and then wait for reimbursement?
      6. Do you actually have any authority/responsibility over the chef ? Some houses are set up for civil war. The board will want you to “oversee” the kitchen and implement policies and changes, but you have no actual authority and the chef knows it!
      7. How does the chain of command work with regard to your position? Are you employed by the Corp board or the “house” i.e chapter council/chapter advisory board.

      Hope this helps. I’ve been an HD for over 6 years and it’s often very much a learn as you go job :)

      1. Platypus Queen*

        These are great questions.

        Also, on behalf of sorority corporate boards everywhere, thank you for your service :)

        1. MMB*

          It is genuinely my pleasure! I’ve been blessed with amazing chapters and equally amazing boards. People have no real idea how much hard work and effort chapter advisors and corp board members put in. Chapter’s couldn’t survive without them. Thank you for your help and support.

    5. Sorority House Directors?*

      MMB & PQ thank you for your additional info & questions to ask. This has been great. I’ve now learned that there are 36 young women in the house, that one of the three staff the HD supervises is the house manager. Don’t yet know the other two roles. And the pay isn’t great, I’m told they would go up to $24k (plus room & board, which hopefully means apartment & board). Not a lot if they really are looking for “mature, experienced” candidates like myself, less surprising if they are accustomed to grad students filling the role.
      Many thanks!

  103. Libby*

    I have to put my pet down soon and I may not be able to get the time off work. I plan to take the time anyways. WWYD?

    2. Amy Sly*

      Depends on how you deal with grief. Sounds like you’re the type who won’t be good for anything that day anyway, so call it a mental health day.

      That being said, there’s likely at least one person in your orbit who deals with that kind of stuff by burying themselves in their work, so if they say something offensive how it’s better to use work to take your mind off it, try to understand that it’s not malicious. But don’t worry about the feelings of the “it’s only a pet” crowd. Be professional if it’s your boss, but cold shoulders are all the others deserve.

      1. Amy Sly*

        I’ve both left work and not left work when I got the call that one of my cats had passed, and I might as well have left because I was good for nothing that day. Really, if you’re so distracted that you’re not able to work, you kinda owe it to your employer to not pretend that you are working.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is one of those family-emergencies situation and I would take the time off too, if you know they won’t be receptive to just asking to use a PTO, I’d use a sick day.

    4. Lucette Kensack*

      I’m so sorry.

      I’m not sure what you mean by “not able to get the time off work” vs “plan to take the time anyway.” Do you mean that if you planned to put your pet down on Thursday and request Thursday and Friday off, they would say no, so instead you’ll just call in with a family emergency on Thursday and Friday? That sounds perfectly reasonable.

    5. irene adler*

      I’m so sorry you have to do this.
      Where I am, San Diego, there are vets who provide euthanasia services at your home. Some will do this on weekends to fit your schedule. Maybe there’s a similar service in your area?

      I would take the time from work. Just don’t tell them why. The handy doctor’s appointment excuse should give them no reason to argue.

      Did this recently myself. Not an easy thing to do. Again, so sorry you are going through this.

      1. Deb Morgan*

        Thank you for mentioning at home euthanasia services. I had no idea that was a thing, and when it’s my buddy’s turn to cross the rainbow bridge, I think that would be a good option for him and me.

    6. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      all in sick. And hugs, Losing a fur friend is losing part of your soul.

  104. London working*

    What’s the etiquette/ethics of quitting temp jobs? I’ve got an events assistant job until early feb but a couple of interviews for perm roles coming up.

    Here in the UK a month is the standard notice period so I hope saying “I’m available second week of Feb” shouldn’t be too much of a deal breaker, but what’s the deal with time of for interviews and stuff? Particularly in the UK

    1. Zephy*

      I’m not in the UK, but I would imagine that the company you’re temping for would understand that you’re looking for a permanent position. Presumably, if that were a possibility with this company, then you would know, so they wouldn’t have a right to take it personally or anything.

      That said, given your long standard notice period, the places you’re interviewing with are also probably expecting that and have factored it into their hiring timeline. Also, I would imagine any hiring process is markedly slower in December, at least in the northern hemisphere – most cultures have some kind of winter holiday(s) that interrupt the normal flow of business to some degree. If you have interviews next week, it may actually be a month before they get back to you with an offer, at which point your early-February start date would be pretty much what they expect anyway.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      Is it a temporary position or are you a temp from an agency? There’s a slightly different etiquette there, but if it’s an agency temp job? You can quit tomorrow and everyone I know would be like ‘she left for a permanent position, that’s the risk you take with temps’ and not hold it against you.

      Time off for interviews would, again, depend on what type of temp position because in some offices they expect you to be looking and would even offer support. Otherwise, same as for all jobs: I have an appointment or you call in sick.

  105. AnonForThis*

    So… about a month ago I quit my job without anything lined up because the environment was so hostile to women that I started having panic attacks all the time and couldn’t sleep and all of that and I was too messed up to job search without quitting. A bit before I turned in my notice, another woman was hired and started getting trained. A coworker, one of the better ones who said he was aware of his biases and trying to overcome them (and who I’m still sort of friendly with) became her main trainer. He asked me for a second opinion sometimes because he was worried he was judging her too harshly or so on. I sort of gently pushed back because I did think he was being too quick to jump to conclusions/coming across as mansplaining a bit. For example, he asked her if she was familiar with a certain kind of teapot handle. She said yes. But he thought she didn’t say it confidently enough, or she just didn’t “seem” to understand it, so then he explained it to her anyways. Then she asked a question that showed that she didn’t quite get how we made the handles differently from how other companies made the handles (from the questions she was asking) but he took this to mean she still must not understand the concept at all and he told me he didn’t get why she was “lying” about understanding more than she actually did. I thought this was a big, scary jump to assume that she would be lying about her knowledge (especially since before this job she had been a very successful milk pitcher maker, which uses the same concepts, just in different ways). So I said I didn’t think she was lying, just that she might think she understands but doesn’t (particularly because she might not know that we have slightly different understandings of the same mechanisms because we work on teapots – different definitions for the same words). Then, when I did finally observe them working together, I could see that she felt he was being condescending. But the way she was reacting to it was not time-efficient and was maybe a bit unprofessional. If he said something condescending to her, she would find something she could explain to him about milk pitchers, and then spend 15 minutes lecturing him in turn about milk pitchers (to give him a taste of his own medicine? to show that she was knowledgeable too?). But obviously to him this was just coming across as somewhat belligerent/arrogant and making it take sooo much longer to train her.

    But again I could see that she was also probably acting this way because she already felt really insecure because of the environment there, that she was already being affected by the same harassment/bullying from others in the workplace that I had experienced, and that she seemed to have some anxiety issues making the harassment/bullying even worse for her.

    Now, before I left I did report several incidents of harassment. But there were also people I couldn’t report because I need them for references/felt it wasn’t worth it when I didn’t have witnesses I could count on for those incidents. Still, I hoped this would be enough for an investigation to be done and maybe some of the worst offenders removed and some re-training to happen for everyone.

    HR met with me right when I turned in my two-weeks notice, so I was there for another two weeks after reporting this harassment. And that’s when this coworker who was training the new hire started to make weirdly gendered comments about like, women’s eating habits or whatever that I could also see made the new hire feel unwelcome, that he had never made before to me. But I didn’t go back to HR because I was just trying to make it through the last two weeks and move on and I was already in such a bad head space that when I had had to go over incidents again in detail for HR it brought everything up and then I went home and cried for hours, etc.

    But recently I heard from someone else at that job that my former boss is now thinking of firing this new hire based on her being defensive and taking too long to train and maybe other judgement from my coworker who is definitely a bit biased. Now I’m wondering, should I say more? Was I too gentle with my coworker who was training her before? Should I say to my coworker who was training her, since he did ask me to tell him if I thought he was not being fair, “To be clear, you are condescending to her sometimes, you’ve made gendered comments that I could see had an effect on her, and she is not responding to this in a professional way but that is what’s making her act this way?” Or should I say to her directly (I also have her contact info), “By the way, this office is horribly sexist, but if you want to stay, you will have to play their game a bit to succeed and either just ignore it or go to HR?” Or do I leave it alone and hope I reported enough and try to move on… because I know it’s really unhealthy for me to be dwelling on this?

    1. WellRed*

      “But he thought she didn’t say it confidently enough, or she just didn’t “seem” to understand it, so then he explained it to her anyways”

      Uh, that’s not mansplaining “a bit.” It’s full throttle, “the little woman doesn’t know of what she speaks and isn’t speaking in a manner that I, the all omnipotent man, approve of.” what an ass.

    3. Earthwalker*

      Move on in peace. Companies tend to disregard the comments of exiting employees as sour grapes or disgruntlement. Go quietly and let them learn their mistakes the hard way: by having to deal with frequent turnover and difficulty finding good replacements. That will get their attention better than anything you can say.

  106. FrenchToast*

    Finally got the confidence to go to HR with my issues with my boss. She’s not abusive but sets absolutely no goals or priorities and instead directs 100% of our team’s energy to whatever she thinks will get the most attention from our CEO on any given day. It’s exhausting, I feel like I’m unlearning my own managerial skills and everyone on the team is clearly demotivated by the chaos. I know it’s not just me, as it’s pretty clear everyone in our office (other teams) find her challenging and incompetent. To be clear, I’ve asked for more direction and goal setting etc directly from boss, not like I went straight to HR.
    Our CEO and HR are very competent and caring and HR says the next step is a meeting for with myself, boss and HR rep to discuss these issues.
    I’m losing my confidence to go through on this and terrified it’ll just lead to my boss hating me openly or playing dumb and nothing will change.
    Has anyone had this type of meeting with HR and their boss and felt good about the outcomes?

    1. Ms. FS*

      I have never had this kind of meeting, but as somebody who is experiencing this same problem but with my CEO, I understand why you would be afraid of it. Personally as a manager myself I would not have addressed it this way, to have a meeting with HR, boss, and you together. If I were grandboss in your scenario I would start probing other avenues of confirming your complaints and do some coaching/feedback/performance for supervisor first. And if I didn’t find issues, I would loop back to you and boss to help facilitate a better conversation about goals/priorities/workload issues.

      Before meeting, I would ask grandboss/HR if you should come prepared with a list of things that you think are priorities and need help setting goals and/or workplan to accomplish them? Or is this meeting more about finding better ways to communicate between you and your boss? My advise is to inquire further the purpose of the meeting with HR, boss, and grandboss so you can come prepared. Last piece of advice, write what you want to say down so you don’t get flustered. Bring your notes with you, give examples. Makes you more credible.

  107. Liz Lemon*

    I had a company a few years ago. I hired someone AMAZING. He was perfect for the job and was super enthusiastic about it. He had the best cover letter and resume of anyone I’d seen for the job and he was the best to work with.

    Unfortunately, we had to shut down only a few weeks after. It was just a part-time job and he only expected to work a few hours a week, so it wasn’t a huge loss for him.

    However, I found myself still thinking about it most recently, and I don’t know how to get past it. It’s been a few years now, like I said, so I need to move on. I guess it just popped in my head recently because I felt really guilty about what happened. I wish I could make it up to him but I doubt he even thinks about it anymore. Sigh.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Maybe as an exercise, write him a letter. Don’t send the letter, but just to have an outlet to put it out into the world.

  108. Anon Applicant (how would that work?)*

    Question for hiring managers/HR folks: If you use a pre-interview questionnaire, what do you see as the benefit?

    I have dealt with a few of these and the questions were standard HR phone screen and/or first hiring manager questions (e.g. “Why are you interested in this job?”; “Tell me about your experience with XYZ”). If I were hiring, I would rather ask those questions in a conversation, since I could then dig more if I needed more info. So, what say you?

  109. Anna G.*

    Question: How bad is it that I didn’t sign a sympathy card for a co-worker?

    Backstory: This happened a few weeks ago (and again a few months ago). We’re a small team of about 10, including management. Recently, a co-worker lost a family member, and before that a similar loss occurred, and another before that in this year alone – thus, the sympathy cards.

    But I didn’t sign any of them – not out of any malicious intent, but rather because it wasn’t in a convenient location. The cards were kept in the secretary’s office, which is a 5 minute or so walk from my office, and not an area I go by naturally in my day-to-day routine. By the time I am able to go to that area (after the bulk of my work is done), the secretary is gone for the day. There was also only a 1-to-2 day notice about the cards.

    Just wondering how much of a social kiss of death this is.

    1. Commuter*

      It’s certainly not great on such a small team, but I wouldn’t say it’s a kiss of death. Maybe suggest that the secretary passes the card around? On a team that small you could put a post it on the front with everyone’s name, cross yourself out once you’ve signed and then pick someone whose name is still there. As long as people know where to return it to that might make it easier on everyone.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Most people aren’t counting the signatures to be honest.

      And your setup sucks, when we circulate a card, we have a procedure in place to make sure everyone signs it. You check your name off the list, you don’t sign it, I see it and I go to you and say “Pst, you wanna sign dis for Seymour, his meemaw passed away.”

    4. NewNameTemporarily*

      I had this happen – not for a death, but for a wedding. I was working remote, going to be there for the shower but not the gift buying. I picked up a card (dollar store, if you don’t have much budget) and at least wrote out my best wishes. I sent an amazon email gift (modest amount, but what I would have put in the gift envelope) and heartily wished all the best at the in person event.
      Even a blank card, with a heart-felt note, is a good step. It is someone being thought of, not the group card, that is important.

  110. Human Sloth*

    Just want to say THANKS to commentors and especially Alison for this awesome forum. I just accepted a new job 21K higher than my base pay + 6 PTO days.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Congratulations! (I do hope your 6 PTO days isn’t a total but is 6 more than ExJob, but if you’re excited, good either way!)

  111. aarti*

    Last year I wrote a novel (yay!) and have spent the last few months submitting it to various publishers. This week one of the publishers got in touch with me and two things came out of our conversation I’m hoping for some perspective on:

    1) Social Media: The publisher said that I need to have a strong social media presence to get published and seemed annoyed that I didn’t have one. I have FB and Instagram account but I logged out over a year ago (for mental health and creepy dude reasons) and have been honestly so much happier without it. So is it possible to become a published author in this day and age without a FB/Instagram presence. Are there other alternatives people suggest to promote yourself as an author?

    2) Marketing out of Pocket: The publisher at first implied and, when I pushed her for clarity, said outright that I would be expected to pay out of pocket for a lot of the costs associated with marketing the book (interviews, conference visits, etc). I tried to get her to tell me what amount we were talking about (a couple hundred dollars a year I might be able to swing, but thousands of dollars was impossible) but she refused to give me even a ballpark figure. Is this also a normal expected thing?

    Ultimately I declined her offer to move forward due to both her lack of clarity around cost and also her pushiness which I didn’t like (she kept saying if I believed in my book, I should be willing to put forward the money). This is a legit employee of a small but serious publishing house, not a vanity press. I’d love to publish my book and maybe even make a little money on it but not enough that I’m willing to put lots of my own money behind it. And even if I wanted to, I can’t afford it now. Looking for some advice as I don’t have a
    Last year I wrote a novel (yay!) and have spent the last few months submitting it to various publishers. This week one of the publishers got in touch with me and two things came out of our conversation I’m hoping for some perspective on:

    1) Social Media: The publisher said that I need to have a strong social media presence to get published and seemed annoyed that I didn’t have one. I have FB and Instagram account but I logged out over a year ago (for mental health and creepy dude reasons) and have been honestly so much happier without it. So is it possible to become a published author in this day and age without a FB/Instagram presence. Are there other alternatives people suggest to promote yourself as an author?

    2) Marketing out of Pocket: The publisher at first implied and, when I pushed her for clarity, said outright that I would be expected to pay out of pocket for a lot of the costs associated with marketing the book (interviews, conference visits, etc). I tried to get her to tell me what amount we were talking about (a couple hundred dollars a year I might be able to swing, but thousands of dollars was impossible) but she refused to give me even a ballpark figure. Is this also a normal expected thing?

    Ultimately I declined her offer to move forward due to both her lack of clarity around cost and also her pushiness which I didn’t like (she kept saying if I believed in my book, I should be willing to put forward the money). This is a legit employee of a small but serious publishing house, not a vanity press. I’d love to publish my book and maybe even make a little money on it but not enough that I’m willing to put lots of my own money behind it. And even if I wanted to, I can’t afford it now. Looking for some advice as I don’t have much previous experience. Thanks!

    1. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t know about paying for the marketing out of pocket.

      For the social media presence, though, I need you need to have one when marketing the book. And it probably needs to be a bit robust with a history of posts when the marketing of your book starts. It should be a curated professional social media presence focused on your writing and book not like a personal FB I checked into this restaurant, this are my kids at their sportball match, etc. So I do think you need to devote yourself to that and you need to have some kind of regular activity weekly to get people to follow you. But make it a professional account and treat it for marketing sharing excerpts and quotes from your book and thoughts on writing and publishing.

      1. JohannaCabal*

        Agreed. Also, be mindful when using social media too. An author in my city had her book pulled due to poor judgment when posting to Twitter. If you’re just getting back in to social media, I recommend focusing solely on the book and avoiding any topics not related to it, particularly, politics. Once you’re more established, that’s when you can start branching out but even then be careful as nuance is not something easily shared on social media.

        I’m also working on some novels right now and trying to figure out how to appropriately promote on social media as I’m more of a lurker myself.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I disagree on solely having your social media be solely about your books (that feels like being marketed to a little too much) but perhaps book stuff + one or two of your blandest or most photogenic interests. (If you have pets, lots of pet photos are generally a great non-controversial thing to be posting. If you don’t, if you do some kind of craft or like gardening or anything like that, those are also nice, bland things to media socially about that humanize you a bit, and that give you a pool of people to connect with, but that aren’t likely to alienate your book’s potential readers.)

          Of course, if your book is the kind that’s likely to already be firmly on some kind of political “side” or be in a niche market where something normally divisive wouldn’t be to your likely readers, that’s a “know your audience” thing.

          2. Anonymous*

            It’s hard with social media. You do have to humanize the social media. I always worry in the back of my mind about angering someone to the point of being doxxed. I’m pretty passionate about certain topics that I know others disagree with just as passionately and I have an elderly parent to worry about at home. This is partly why I stepped away from a fanfic community on social media that I originally followed.

            This is why I’m moving to Instagram. I also design jewelry (for myself not to sell) and hunt thrift stores and flea markets for unique finds so I might combine that with promoting some of my writing. I really want to avoid Twitter if I can help it (been off Facebook and don’t miss it)

    2. WellRed*

      This is why it is recommended to go through an agent who will know what is and isn’t normal and won’t try to take advantage of your “ignorance” like this publisher seems to be doing.

      2. CM*

        Yeah, I think an agent would be useful here. It’s also useful to think about what you’re looking for when you use a traditional publisher. We live in an age where you don’t necessarily have to have one, so you need to consider what they’re actually offering you and whether that’s what you want (like, if a big part of what you want is someone else to take care of the marketing and they’re asking you to do it then this might not be a good arrangement for you).

    3. Reba*

      Do you have an agent? They would be better positioned to guide you based on the genre and market for your particular book.

    4. justkiya*

      re: social media – I’d suggest Twitter. It CAN be a steaming hellhole, but it seems to be a place that a LOT of authors congregate, and you can get some good networking/relationships built.

      re: marketing out of pocket – funnily enough, I’m almost CERTAIN this was a topic on Twitter recently (as in like the past week!) and it was asking that the author come up with a marketing plan – and the general vibe was – NOPE. That’s what the publisher is supposed to do.

      1. Stacy Sloan Smith*

        That was specific to asking for a marketing plan from authors *at the query stage.* It is expected across the board that authors will spend a lot of their own time and likely some of their money marketing the book after it is accepted. They view an author as part of the marketing team. (it’s true that you shouldn’t be expected to quarterback the team though, you are one part).

    5. fposte*

      It may not be completely a vanity press, but it’s getting close to it if it’s asking you to absorb the costs of marketing, which is not usual in traditional presses. The “And we won’t tell you how much that will run” is absolutely a red flag and you were smart to back out.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Are you sure it’s not usual in traditional presses?

        I have three friends who have published recently (all nonfiction, published by legit-but-small presses), and they are 100% responsible for travel costs associated with promotions (book fairs, conferences, readings, etc.). Gone are the days of funded book tours.

        1. fposte*

          You’re making a good point–I read too fast and thought it was for marketing generally, not for author travel. That’s a whole ‘nother ball game.

        2. Stacy Sloan Smith*

          I also think it’s not required to do travel/conferences, which is why they don’t pay if you chose to do it. If they ASK you to attend something, that might shift the needle at a big enough publishing company.

        3. The New Wanderer*

          Also true for my friend who published a fiction book with a small press. She was responsible for organizing all marketing and related promotions at her cost. In addition, I’m not sure I have it all 100% straight but I believe she was obligated to front the printing costs for some number of books that would be sold at bookstores (with her arranging those relationships) and directly at her signings/book fairs. Her book is available on Amazon too, but the price is significantly lower for an ebook and she gets a much smaller cut of those sales.

          She also got the same advice about social media as Stacy Sloan Smith describes below, and developed various social media accounts specifically for the book and her upcoming projects. She said one of the better strategies for her has been networking with other authors in the genre, both online and at writing conferences, to combine efforts.

          She obviously would have preferred an agent and/or larger press but wasn’t able to get one before connecting with this press, and said if she’d known about all the work and cost involved with going the unrepresented small-press route, she would have self-published.

          1. Stacy Sloan Smith*

            I always think those kinds of deals are the worst of all worlds. You can self publish including getting hard copy books and at least keep more of the profits, or you can go with a traditional publisher and expect support even if it’s not usually as much as you would wish.

    6. Stacy Sloan Smith*

      Ooh this one is in my wheelhouse! I am a newly published author. My book comes out this month from a not-big-five but not-small-press publisher.

      1) social media. Unfortunately, I was asked pretty pointedly to do this. I did not have a platform when I queried and that was acceptable, although it can help – but sadly I think it is required to have if you are accepted. It’s twitter/insta/facebook AND a website/blog/newsletter AND a bookbub/goodreads/amazon account. You could probably get away with focusing on one or two and not do everything, but publishers see this as a free thing that you should be doing to get the word out, and unwillingness to do this will rub them badly, in my experience.

      2) expenses. A legit publisher should have been willing to tell you what they ARE going to do to promote your book, which might have helped you feel better: they will place it in stores and libraries? submit it to reviewers? Pay for ads? put it on netgalley? enter you in awards/contests? However, most of them DON’T pay for travel, conferences, or some of the optional swag that helps grease the wheels like bookmarks, postcards, etc. They will usually tell you this comes out of your advance. Travel and conferences are also optional, most people don’t think it moves a lot of books. Even the largest houses will only do tours for their big names.

      It’s very sad, but the industry isn’t making a lot of money as a whole right now, and they depend on the author’s vanity and ego to accept punishingly small amounts of money. But a good publisher should still be able to articulate what they are going to do for you.

      1. Stacy Sloan Smith*

        Although thinking about it, a major short cut to all this is: Did they offer an advance? Is it at least four figures? If so, that’s not a terrible situation to be in. If no advance, you have to look pretty hard at what they ARE going to do for you. Is it … nothing?

      2. aarti*

        Thank you for all this advice (and congratulations on your book!) I think that’s part of what robbed me the wrong way with this publisher. Our conversation felt very one-sided and money focused (although she refused to talk exact numbers, so who knows?).

  112. Kendra*

    There was a coworker who harassed me at my job. It was to the point of… I mean, I don’t think people would believe me when I talked about what happened. The comments he said to me and the harassment I faced was absolutely unbearable. He eventually got fired for drinking at work and hitting 0% of his target. (Literally zero percent.)

    It turns out that my coworker from a completely different company knows him. She tells me he’s SO GREAT. WHATHDOIGHDOIGHGH. I felt like I could not say anything after her glowing review so I literally just changed the subject.

    I guess I just don’t understand how people like that can “make it.” He was literally The Worst Person I’ve Ever Met. Not only that, but she says he’s working as a VP for a huuuuuge organization (that you’ve definitely heard of). I’m like, SERIOUSLY?! This guy harassed me for months and now he’s a $&@* BOSS?

    HOW THE F*** DOES THIS S*** HAPPEN?!?!?!

    1. Anonymouse*

      Ugh, sorry to hear that. This is why I think it’s so important to push good people into management (and that requires actions like expanding your candidate pool, paying attention to diversity and reassessing your own environment). No matter what, there will always be humongous assholes, but if we can get enough good people up there, we’ll squeeze them out eventually.

    3. JohannaCabal*

      How does it happen? My guess is said individual can initially come off as charming and also knows how to keep the charm turned on for the right reasons.

      Also, it seems to me that the folks who get fired for legitimate reasons tend to have no problems getting the next job while those fired for BS reasons struggle to get that next position. He could have simply gone to his network or lied on his resume that he was still at the original job when he wasn’t. Frustrating, though.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      People are complicated. So, to you, he was horrible, but to someone else he may be just fine. It’s frustrating, but it happens.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        I’m sorry, in no way is this human being “just fine” just because he treats one person ok after bullying and harassing another person for a year. People don’t magically become ok after moving away from the target of their abuse and to suggest otherwise strikes me as uncomfortably close to victim-blaming, or at the very least incredibly dismissive of her suffering.

        Maybe he got help for his issues and thus became a better person by hard work. Good for him if he did, but let’s not excuse his prior behavior by saying people are complicated.

        1. Ron McDon*

          I think what they meant is that he *treated* the other person just fine, not that he *was* just fine.

          Thus they wouldn’t know that he’d bullied the previous person.

  113. EJane*

    I just have to share that I just got my first really juicy project. I’m a technical writer for a little llama upgrade company, and have mostly been writing short documents for internal and client-facing llama guides, or refining existing documentation.

    I just got handed an RFQ skeleton to flesh out and edit. What’s the mental version of drooling? because I’m doing it.

  114. Retail not Retail*

    Anyone else who work outside struggle to get a consistent weather policy from their bosses?

    Mine say “use your judgment” but it’s expected unless it’s a downpour to work – and even then some of the more dedicated people stay out in it!

    The worst stormy morning there was 20 minutes of increasing thunder and lightning right overhead but no rain. Our president walked by and said “you do know it’s thundering right?” and walked off. Later he praised our dedication! (When the sky did open up we got drenched bc one person insisted on finishing and she was up in a treehouse.)

    Sponsored by light rain and mid 40s on this stupid friday that has us outside instead of working offsite and indoors.

    2. Antilles*

      One option might be to do some research on the OSHA recommendations for lightning and thunder and use those. – which strongly suggest* workers to (1) stop work immediately if there is any sign of lightning or thunder and (2) not resume work until 30 minutes after the last sound of thunder.
      Definitely a know-your-boss kind of thing – some people would get irritated at you “going all legal on us”, but others would overcome their lasseiz-faire attitude when they realize that there’s actual guidance out there to use.
      *Note that it’s a suggestion not a requirement – it falls under the “General Duty to Protect Workers” clause, but it’s not actually required except for very specific circumstances like scaffolds or cranes.

      1. noahwynn*

        In the airline world, we stop using headsets and radios when lightning is within 5 miles and everyone goes inside when it is within 3 miles. There has to be no lightning for 10 minutes for the ramp to reopen and everyone to return to work.

      2. Retail not Retail*

        The argument in favor of staying was that all the tools we were using were aluminum. Later someone said if we went inside every time it thundered, we’d never work certain days!

        When I asked the president about it later, he pointed out that you can’t make the guests go inside.

        During my first stormy day, treehouse woman insisted we go out in the thunder/downpour/etc in a GOLF CART to look for fallen tree limbs instead of waiting for it to stop. This was in February it was miserable. At least treehouse day was in july.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          OMGnoooooooo! No one should be anywhere near a tree during a thunderstorm!

          Please tell them it isn’t a matter of the metal content of the tools you’re using, it’s the fact that lightning strikes the highest point (the tallest tree, especially if that tree is in a field off by itself, or on a hill). It is absolutely a health & safety no-no to have your workers on, in, or under a tree during an electrical storm.

  115. misophonic misanthrope*

    We recently hired a new person for the department I’m in, and her desk is right next to mine without any cubicle dividers or anything. Overall she’s nice, and the sort of firm no-nonsense person we desperately needed for that role (I was doing it previously and I’m a pushover). But… she’s so NOISY.

    She constantly exchanges short video messages with her boyfriend, and laughs at his replies.

    She talks to herself as she works – a lot of “WHAT?” and “Are you kidding me?” and other annoyed/frustrated exclamations.

    She sucks on hard candies.

    She coughs and sniffles.

    She listens to music (on her headphones) and hums, or even sings, along, loud enough that I can hear her over my own headphones and music.

    I’ve always been fortunate to have a desk placed away from others, so I’m used to a certain level of quiet that I know isn’t going to be possible with someone else nearby. I know some of this is normal human noise. And it makes sense that our desks are close, since I’m helping to train her and we’re the only two peers in the department. But her noises are seriously distracting when I’m trying to think!

    I don’t want to be unreasonable – we have to keep working together in this space, and besides which she’d probably go to our boss to complain. But I can tell her to stop at least the singing, right???

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Talk to her ASAP, before this drives you out of your mind and you snap!

      She may not even realize she’s doing some of this stuff. Focus on the stuff she can actually control, like asking her to step out of the office if she sends a video chat, and mentioning that her singing can be distracting. You may have to accept the coughing, sniffles, and hard candies, but it will probably feel a lot more reasonable if you ask that she cut down on the others.

      1. Reba*

        You can definitely ask her to knock it off with the videos. Since you’re helping to train her, you also have some standing to say — apart from the fact that it bugs you — that it’s not exactly professional or in your office norms to do personal communications all day, especially if they are audible to others.

        You can definitely ask her to stop singing, but be prepared for her to … not stop, even if she is trying! That habit can be really ingrained.

    2. Parenthetically*

      “Hey Evelyn, would you mind stepping out when you get a personal message? Thanks so much!” (Possibly adding “I don’t want to feel like I’m eavesdropping.”)

      “Hey, you probably don’t even realize, but you’re singing along pretty loudly!”

      You can FOR SURE push back on those two, ESPECIALLY since you’re training her. I think if you get good traction with those, I think you can bring up that you’re sensitive to noise and the clacking/crunching of the candy really distracts you. Since you’re training her, I think you could also frame it, if it makes sense in your context, as “here are the dynamics/conventions in this office” — that generally people need reliable quiet to work productively, not tomb-like but generally at a low volume, etc., and that personal calls/messages that would be audible to others would feel out of place.

  116. NeedsARealityCheck*

    Thanks to everyone, especially Kimberlee, No Longer Esq. and time for tea, who helped me think thru the unpaid internship that may turn to job offer thing two weeks ago. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me consider options. It is especially helpful to have heard from people in the workforce and not just my family. I ended up turning it down. The good news is the day after I turned it down I got a invitation to interview at a job in my current city that would be a really good fit to my skills. I interview after Thanksgiving. Thanks again!

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      Best of luck with the interview! It’s always great when you can do a paying position instead of an unpaid one.

  117. Jessen*

    Tis the holiday season. And for some of us that means awkward workplace small talk about holidays and family and the fact that our holiday plans might be something like “spend the day housecleaning and ignoring guilt trip phone calls from family.” So what’s your best way of getting out of holiday small talk when you don’t actually want to talk about it?

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      Turn it back on them! “Oh, I’m not doing much this year, what about you? Are you have a big crowd? What are you cooking? Think you’ll watch the parade? I always love the balloons!”

    2. Jessen*

      Oddly, I’ve actually had good luck lately being honest but un-detailed? “Eh, you know, family drama, figured I’d spend a quiet day at home.” Most listeners can fill in something from their own family that they might want to skip, and it seems to get the idea across that the rest of the details might not be work appropriate.

      Then again, I’m with a few Black Friday people on my team, so we’ve also been chatting back and forth about personal purchases. I am in serious need of something at home other than a 4 year old laptop.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Holidays never meant anything to us growing up and they have made me rather lukewarm on them.

      It’s the same idea as those “weekend plans?” conversations though! With all of those who are like “My plans are to watch Netflix and pet my cat…”

      So I’d just brush it off and then inquire about their holiday plans. Usually people really excited about the holidays will easily steamroller right through and talk to you about their big old holiday bash. Yeah a few will dig in about “Surely you don’t really hate Christmas and you are celebrating!” but I’m like “No, my heart really is 3 size too small.”

    4. Wishing You Well*

      I’ve learned long ago that the one asking questions is the one controlling the conversation. When you don’t want to talk about something, give a short answer and immediately ask a question. And keep asking questions.
      There are lots of topics that, for the sake of everyone involved, require short, evasive answers because the bald truth will get you a LOT of inappropriate responses. Just don’t go there – except with a licensed professional.
      There’s a lot of us who do nontraditional things during the holidays and it’s really okay. In fact, it’s great!
      Happy Choices, Everyone!

  118. TurtleIScream*

    This is volunteee work, not work-work, but I still think it fits here.

    For the last 6 years, I have been volunteering at a local non-profit, performing a series of tasks related to my career training. The first year, I was plugged into an existing team, where I was told to do a particular task a particular way because “that’s the way we’ve always done it”. It wasn’t a perfect system, but it worked, and I was glad to help.

    The next year, a new director came on board. He had his own very definite ideas of the right way to do things, and completely changed our processes. He subdivided tasks, assigning volunteers the most basic tasks even an untrained monkey could do, and used paid staff for the higher levels (although they weren’t paid for this time; it was a process completely separate from their normal duties). We lost a LOT of volunteers, which he loudly complained about, because he was stuck doing soooo much extra work. You know, that he hoarded and micro-managed. I gave up, and didn’t volunteer at all last year.

    This year, we have a new director again. This director has never overseen this process, so has recruited several volunteers who have been involved to help teach him the ropes. We have a team of veteran volunteers and newbies working together. The roles have organically sifted and settled by interests and strengths. And everything is going so well! I have never, ever in my life been a part of such a functional team. We all generally know what we’re doing, and when we don’t, we ask questions. We are able to suggest improvements and feel listened to. When suggestions aren’t implemented, reasons are given. I absolutely love being on a team where we all feel valued and are able to get important work done while still having fun!

  119. AnotherLibrarian*

    Best interview questions you have ever been asked? I’m working on putting together a list for a job I’m hiring for it is heavy on customer service and works with rare historical materials. I need someone reliable with good attention to detail whose willing to learn on the job.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t mean to suggest there won’t be training. We will be training them, but they will also be the only person who does what they do. And I don’t have the time to handhold too much, so quick learning will be essential.

    2. machinations and palindromes*

      A good question I got (that they then ruined by doing other things, but it was still a good question): teach me to do something you know how to do.

      This helps show that they can break a task down into steps and explain them. The thing doesn’t have to be complicated. It can be “here’s how to boil water”.

  120. Applesauced*

    My company publishes everyone’s cell number in our internal directory and my boss LOVES texting. She’s in meetings most of the time, and it’s the easiest way for her to keep in touch (why not email, I don’t know)
    I don’t have a company phone (and don’t want one) so she’s texting my personal phone, and sometimes adding me to group texts with outside consultants and even clients – who now have my personal phone number. Nothing has happened yet, but I just don’t like the idea of my number out there with all these people I didn’t give it to.
    1) am I over reacting?
    2) what’s a tactful way to ask my boss to stop texting me (or at least stop texting me with consultants and clients)?

    1. Zap R.*

      Just ask her straight up. “Hey, boss. I don’t feel comfortable sharing my personal phone number with people outside the company. Is there another way we could have these conversations?”

    2. Anono-me*

      If there are reasons that make you uncomfortable asking your boss to stop sharing your current cell number, you could get a Google Voice number and give her that one.

  121. anon attorney*

    Trial lawyers of AAM, I have a question for you. Has anyone moved out of litigation and not regretted it?

    I am a divorce attorney but I also do some estate planning/conservatory type work. An opportunity has arisen to move within my firm to focus exclusively on the latter. There’s a hint, not quite a promise, of partnership if it works out. I’m not really a natural rainmaker but there’s definitely an opportunity there I could work with. And I am feeling a little burned out by people’s marital problems lately.

    But … I am a court gal. Always have been. I started out at the criminal bar and I like the variety and occasional vomit inducing tension of it all. Will I get bored if I’m not in divorce court every week?

    I’d be interested to hear from anyone who switched from mostly trial work to something a little gentler.

    1. E*

      I’m not in the legal field, but can you do some volunteer work with the court system somehow that would give you the occasional court experience? So that you don’t get burnt out on just the less exciting work.

    2. CatCat*

      I burned out of litigation. There are some things I miss about it, but overall, I do not miss it and don’t plan to return to it.

    3. Grumpy McGrumperson*

      I have to say that I dislike litigation very much, left for a bit, came back, and still do not like it. If you have a chance to get out, take it!

  122. Marie R.*

    When is it okay to spoil a surprise? I was invited to a farewell event for a former colleague as a “surprise” guest. The colleague has a strained relationship with leadership, who will also be attending this event, and the dynamic is unpleasant. I left the organization some time ago, but have maintained friendly contact with the former colleague. I suspect my attendance would be a relief – should I let him know ahead of time in case he’s stressed about getting through the event?

    1. machinations and palindromes*

      If you don’t consent to being someone’s surprise, you can go ahead and tell them in advance.

    2. Rexish*

      It’s ok to spoil a suprise of you think that the other person won’t enjoy the suprise or suprises in general.

  123. Kelly*

    Working as a contract/temp question:
    I recently (nov 4) started as a contract staff member. The agency I am hired through was supposed to tell the client that I had a pre-planned vacation for the week of Thanksgiving. As the date has drawn closer, my supervisor hadnt mentioned anything about it, and being so new I’ll admit I was chicken to bring it up. UYFW, I know.
    I spoke with her Wednesday, told her it was absolutely not an issue for me to come in Mon, Tues and 1/2 day Wed (they close at noon Wed) and apologized for waiting till the last minute. She wasn’t thrilled with finding out this late in the game, understandably. I should know today if it’s a come in to the office thing or not.
    My worry is that I’ve made a bad a bad impression, and how do I recover from that. Obviously since I’m finishing up my 3rd week here, I’m still in the training/learning/not being perfect at the job, and feeling this unsure is pretty crappy.
    Any words of wisdom?

    1. Me*

      Try to keep in mind there’s a difference between being annoyed with a person and being annoyed at a situation. It’s probably the latter – reasonable people understand things like this. Hopefully you brought it up as a hey, the agency indicated the would disclose this but I wanted to check in.

      As it stands, when they get back to you with a yes come in or no it’s fine, say you sincerely appreciate the consideration and apologize both for the inconvenience and not following up to ensure that the agency had shared the information.

  124. Anonymouse*

    TLDR; An internal candidate started an interview off by opening their laptop and saying they needed to do some work first. What the heck???

    I’m a first-time interviewer looking for someone to work as my colleague on my (current) team of one. It’s a junior position, so some of our candidates aren’t the most experienced.

    My question: is it normal to have a candidate literally do their own work during the interview?! I brought in an internal candidate from another location, and he started off by asking if he’d be able to connect to the company network in this building. I said yes, he sat down, opened his laptop and told me since he lives out of town and trekked in to make the interview, he has to catch up on work first. I side-eyed him for two minutes before he finally closed his laptop and said “I’m set”. I was boggled! Please tell me this isn’t normal.

    1. NotAPirate*

      Not normal! If I had something that urgent I’d do it in the parking lot/lobby/bathroom even. Just not in the interview! What a first impression!

      1. Anonymouse*

        Nope — he floundered when I pushed for more info past the standard questions, and was unable to come up with a weakness or past mistake (personally this is a big red flag for me). The only reason we brought him in was because he had the technical knowledge, but yeah. His resume’s already in the shredder, LOL, I just wanted to get a sanity check on his behaviour.

        1. periwinkle*

          I don’t know about that. It sounds like he decided to “show, don’t tell” a couple serious weaknesses: bad at prioritizing in the moment and bad at making a positive first impression.

    3. Susan K*

      Wow. I’m not a hiring manager, but if I were, I would consider that an automatic rejection, unless the candidate had a very compelling story about why this was a business emergency that had to be handled immediately (along with profuse apologies). This tells you that he has no clue about business norms or etiquette and lacks the ability to prioritize appropriately. If he came in an hour early to get some work done from your building before the interview, no problem, but delaying the interview to catch up on his work bizarre.

      1. Antilles*

        If he came in an hour early to get some work done from your building before the interview, no problem, but delaying the interview to catch up on his work bizarre.
        That was my thought too. Like, if he really was worried about missing something key or getting out a critical project deadline or something…why not just ask you ahead of time if he could show up early and nab a spare desk or an empty office or whatever?

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Yeah, if it were some kind of major business-related crisis, I could see his boss calling the interviewing department and asking to interrupt/delay the interview over it, but anything more minor than that makes no sense. (“I know Jane was supposed to be interviewing with you right now, but we’re having a major crisis because our new latches for the llama gates were made out of eco-friendly carrot-based material, and now the llamas have eaten them and are running amok in accounting. We really need anyone experienced in catching llamas on deck over here right now, so is it possible to re-schedule her interview so we can have one more set of hands during this incident?”)

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I witnessed this one time. The guy was interviewing while the project he was working on for a competitor (an industrial scale solar power project) was in start-up. He got at least 3 calls from the site during my 45 minute interview, and he “had to” answer them lest he tip them off why he could not respond. I think he would have been better off to have delayed the interview a week or two. Sure, that would be a risk but working your other job during an interview is pretty weird.

      Your guy could have just waited until it was over or came into your office lobby early, though, right? That seems even weirder, almost.

    5. WellRed*

      “I’m set.”
      “Me, too! Thanks for coming,” and show them the door. Was this some sort of weird power play on his part?

    6. Catsaber*

      That’s really bizarre. Why couldn’t he do it beforehand? or after? Or basically at any time not at the start of an interview???? I suppose he could have gotten something urgent, but in that case, I’d just tell them I could get to it in an hour or whatever.

    7. fposte*

      Wow. My department has a very high tolerance for multitasking, but even here that would be beyond the pale.

    8. Parenthetically*

      Did someone tell him to look, like, super busy and indispensable in the interview or something? What an absolutely ridiculous thing to do.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        That’s what I’m wondering – did he think he was showing you something GOOD about him?

  125. NotAPirate*

    Longtime Windows user. Occasional linux user. Potential new job uses Mac. Anyone have any good sites that teach you how to use mac? I’m hoping there’s like an interactive website or something out there.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      support.apple.com/explore/new-to-mac — straight from the horse’s mouth, as it were :) I’ve been a Mac user for mmphmteen years, so I haven’t been a learner for quite some time, but it seems that that’d be a place to start.

  126. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    So we assumed the facility had smoke detectors because that’s pretty basic stuff right? Nope…sweet ignorance, you have forsaken me as you usually do.

    Turns out our detectors are only heat reactive and of course attached to the sprinkler system. So when our shop filled with smoke from a neighboring unit overheating/melting light fixture the other day, we were like “Why aren’t the alarms going off though?” but whatever, we evacuated and called the fire department.

    Then the facility management was all “Yeah it’s because your only smoke detector is in the upstairs hallway.” Like, what?! As you can imagine, this is being fixed immediately.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Yeah…the good news is that ONE smoke detector is in the hallway with our offices…so we’re going to hear it. Once the bottom floor fills up and with fire and the smoke finally raises this far!

        I was reading about it. Sprinklers are to lessen property damage whereas smoke detectors are to save lives…ef the lives man, save the machines!!!! No, vomit, do not want. Machines are replaceable, life is not.

  127. ainnnymouse*

    Why do companies bother conducting interviews if they don’t have any open positions or think your resume is weak? Isn’t just a big waste of time? On both ends?

    1. fposte*

      It depends. It’s enough of a time suck that it’s likely that they felt they might have an opening soon, or they interviewed somebody with a decent resume but then had another applicant with a stellar one.

      Often we hear in AAM from somebody who got rejected after an interview because the employer was looking for more xxx experience, and the poster here is annoyed because the amount of xxx experience they had was clear on their resume. But what happens is the employer liked a lot of the resume and thought that xxx experience might be enough, and then they find that the pool means they can actually do better. It’s not a waste of time for them, and it’s not a waste for the applicant any more than any other interview that didn’t land a job.

  128. ManicMonday*

    My company recently went through a reorg and I am now managing a newly merged department. Our departments did very different work, IMO. I’m learning more about the other department and how we can best work effectively as a new team. That, along with adding more employees to supervise, prompted me to ask for raise. I didn’t think it was too over the top to ask about the possibility of more money, but my boss and grandboss acted like it was the most ridiculous and unreasonable thing to ask. Instead, they said I could only get a raise through the merit system. I’ve worked hard and their reaction has just sent me for a loop. I’ve lost some motivation since this discussion and I know that I need to drop it. So, was it unreasonable of me to ask for a raise and how to do I get some motivation back?

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        Agreed. They totally should have given you a raise for being put in the position of managing a newly-merged department, and the fact that they didn’t means your talents and skills will be better appreciated elsewhere.

  129. Rexish*

    I need advice on how to just do your work and ignore the drama wround the office.

    My work itself is fine and I want to do it well. It has an effect to a lot of people and I want to make sure it is done on time and with good quality. The problem is that we have a new manager in our team who wants to shake thing up. We did need a shake up but not the way she is doing it. She is really into developing the team but she clearly has no plan. She pretends that her management style is to let us have freedom but in reality I think that she just doesn’t know what to do. As an exmale she desperately wants us to work in smaller teams and the only instruction we have gotten is “you can make the team whatever you want it to be”. The three loudest employees absolutely love her and she loves them. Rest of us are irrelevant to her. She loves the sound of her own voice and causes WTF moments all the time and only manages the 3 favourites and lets them be in control. The rest of us are just announced with things and then their opinions are recited as the truth and when I disagree then I’m just against change and being sensitive

    I feel like I’m at a point where I should just keep my head down and do my work and just ignore everything else. The problem is that I don’t know how. I feel like there is a new WTF moment every day. I’m looking for something else but unfortunately the job market is not great and I’m not at the point where I feel like I should take just anything in any field. My work is very independent and I rarely need anything from the manager. I don’t know how to unhear things and not let anything get to me.
    Any advice on how to ignore everything and get on with my work?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I really like AAM’s advice to look at them as though you were visiting another planet and interacting with the locals there. Like, “Huh, that’s so different than how we do things on my home planet!” and move on.

        1. Rexish*

          Thanks tree hugger!

          The WTF moments are a collection of small things. As an example we had a supplier meeting. She is convinved that I’m somehow nervous (I wasn’t, I’ve been doing these on my own for several years) and started giving the advice of imagining them naked but of course that could be bad in case i get too turned on and then some type of blowjob reference. She also likes to describe her diarrhea and well any bodily fluid. I once in general pointed out how there is unprofessional behaviour in our office and she determined tha I’m just sensitive. Then a week later she has organised a class about professional communiation in our office cause she has seen that there is a lot of unprofessional behaviour

          Workwise she mainly ignores requets from others than her favourites. They get all the information and has significant ammount of power and then we hear about things later. SHe firmly believes that you cna do anything when there is justification but she actually never gies the reasons. She says it’s because she wants us to think but then later just agrees that we were correct. It’s not really that bad but when it’s something small every day it just adds up.

  130. AnyaT*

    I am interested in anyone who has gone through a mid-life career change, and if the financial impact is worth it. I work in municipal government, doing the same job for 13 years and really wanted a change. So I started doing my master’s degree part time in a field related to municipal government and finished this spring. I’ve now been offered a term position in that field, within the same government but in a different department. The position sounds great and I know the people I’d be working with, also great. My only stumbling block is the pay cut – it is about $18,000 less than my old job. The new position is unionized so there really is no opportunity to negotiate, and besides it would be hard for me to ask for more money than people with several years’ experience at the same level.

    I’m trying to think of it as taking a step back now to get a job I enjoy more, but I am really nervous about the financial hit. Has anyone else gone through a career change halfway through their career that has advice?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The key is downsizing your lifestyle before you actually take that financial hit. To see if you can do it. Then stockpile the excess funds for your emergency fund.

      I wouldn’t do this without a lot of preparation, so that position being available now is dicey and I wouldn’t take the risk. It will also depend on your cost of living in your area, sometimes a 18k cut is simply unable to be done unless you’re just a supplemental income and not the breadwinner, kind of setup.

    2. Jamie*

      I didn’t do it voluntarily, but I took a hit a little larger than that after a toxic restructure.

      I am currently in a job I do happen to like more than the one that was killing me in slow increments, and the way things operate there is less pressure and 60-70 hour weeks are unheard of rather than the norm so I choose to focus on the many positives and am truly grateful to have a job where I’m happy and engaged again.

      I’m very happy with the change unless I am actively thinking about the money and how at my stage in the game I’ll likely never get back to where I was…but I have to focus on the positive in order to be happy.

  131. Judddddddy*

    HELP!

    I have an interview for a job but just saw there’s another position at the company that I’m better suited for. What do I do?

    2. Kiwiii*

      Apply for the other job! An interview might mean you’re 1 of dozens or 1 of 4 and the positions might be on incredibly different timelines. I do think you’ll have to take whichever one offers you the job first, but if they’re relatively small there’s a chance the hiring managers will realize you’re in the pool for both and discuss which you’re a better fit for.

      When I was looking to get out of contracting, I applied to a couple different pretty similar entry-level positions at a company, and during the phone interview for the second one, the screener literally told me to apply to two more they’d be posting in the next week that were also somewhat similar.

      1. Kiwiii*

        Oh, I meant to add. It’s not weird at all to apply to both and if the positions are at all similar, they probably expect some overlap in candidates.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do your interview. Then apply for the other position when you get home.

      Focus on the job you’re interviewing for during the interview and not the company as a whole, unless someone mentions it first.

  132. Strawberry Fields*

    We had a work lunch with people from other departments. “Jan”, my coworker, was sitting near me and kept having me look over at “Cody.” She would say something like, “Look at Cody’s sweater! Are you looking?” She kept saying things like that.

    I asked another coworker about it and she said that Jan wanted to stir up trouble and make Cody think that I was looking at him.

    Now Cody is awkward around me and seems to be avoiding me. He’ll make it a point around me to announce, “I have a girlfriend…” or “My girlfriend…”

    I’m not interested in him like that. I’m just there to work and do my job.

    Should I say something to him? I’ve been ignoring it, but it’s awkward.

    1. Catsaber*

      I would just ignore it and continue to treat Cody very professionally, and eventually he should get over the awkwardness.

      But Jane is the one I’m more concerned about. If she tries something like that again, you could call attention to the oddness of the behavior. Like, “Jane, why are you so interested in Cody’s sweater? Why do you need me to look at him?” Turn it back on her.

      Does she do that with other people? Why would she do something like that?

    2. fposte*

      Assuming the actual work is happening the way it needs to, I think ignoring it is probably the best plan; eventually it will die down, or you’ll realize it wasn’t about you in the first place. Saying something has a high risk of sounding defensive. (And next time Jan asks you to look at something, remember you don’t have to.)

    4. WellRed*

      I feel like you keep posting a variation of this question every week. The answers are the same this week as they were last week and the week before. What is it that you are seeking here?

      1. Strawberry Fields*

        These are different people than the people I talked about in previous posts. I’m not the best socially, so any help is appreciated. I’m sorry if it’s similar to other posts.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          The fix here is to work on the underlying weakness: social skills. You’re not alone in needing to work on social skills, it’s actually hugely common. So common that I really don’t know why we don’t have formal classes that people can take, like through the parks departments and stuff.

          This site is awesome for work stuff, but not necessarily going to cover your social education needs. CaptainAwkward.com will help. Again, not perfect, but you’re also going to find links on her posts sometimes to other resources that may help. Good luck!

  133. SocialGal*

    A bit sad, I found a great job that sounded fun and challenging, plus the supervisor had all the qualities that I want in a boss. She was very transparent as well. Only problem? The job would be a 10K pay cut for me. So, I turned it down after some hard thinking. She didn’t even seem surprised…think she knows that the salary is too low for the effort and experience the job requires.

    TLDR; offered a great job but had to turn down because the salary would be $10K pay cut

  134. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    No advice needed, but please join me in giggling at the faculty member who has been repeatedly using a departmental listserv (including faculty, staff, students, and God herself) to advertise performances of a band several faculty members are in. The best part is, they keep suggesting that they perform at departmental celebrations in these emails, and clearly someone, somewhere has forbidden this, because this string of emails was started in response to the announcement of the department holiday party, which they are definitely not performing at.

  135. MOAS*

    I know it’s late-ish and will get buried but, it’s my day before going on vacation next week and I’m almost practically in tears right now…

    I was having a chat with my boss and he said out of the 3 managers who are my peers, I have the strongest soft skills. My technical skills aren’t bad or lacking, but my peers have 15-20 years of work experience, whereas I have <5.

    This makes me feel SO GOOD yall have no idea.

    1. Let's Just Say Eleven*

      That’s so cool! Soft skills are nothing to be sneezed at (and so much harder to build if you don’t have them already, in some ways), congrats on the great compliment :)

      1. MOAS*

        So in the previous letter about the person flipping out over the Hawaiian bread rolls, I wrote a little bit about how I can sympathize. Not to get too long and complicated, but basically my soft skills were sh*t. I have been working so hard the last few years to improve upon this and this little throaway comment (it was really such a casual conversation) meant the world to me <3

  136. In Need Of Advice and Earplugs*

    Does anyone have advice for dealing with a negative co-worker who complains often?

    Several times a week, “Jane” loudly complains to another co-worker – or to no one in particular – about everything and anything. Things that most people would find a minor inconvenience become a huge issue for her. Luckily I’m rarely one of the people she complains to, but our office has an open floor plan so I can always hear her. The volume makes it hard to focus on my work at times, and as someone dealing with mental illness it can really wear me down. I don’t want to wear headphones because other employees come to me with questions and I don’t want to wrongly send the message that I’m not to be bothered.

    Since our supervisor, “Fergus”, also works in the open office he is well aware of the complaining, but as far as I can tell has done nothing about it (Fergus’s refusal to address problems with his employees is another issue altogether…) When I went to Fergus one time about loud conversations being distracting, he said he “just tunes it out.” I’m hesitant to approach Jane about this directly since she probably won’t react well, and I feel like it’s not my place to say anything.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would try to focus on the volume and not the actual conversations themselves. “Noise carries and I lose concentration, I have tried to tune it out but it’s a bit too much for me to just do that. Would you please be more mindful of your volume? I would really appreciate it.”

      Screw Fergus, it’s an easy conversation. Again, it’s hard to really police conversations in general unless it’s wildly inappropriate subject matter but the volume should be something that’s pretty simple and reasonable to bring up.

      It is your place to ask people to assist in making your life easier. Usually you’d ask before going to management. Are you sure she’ll react poorly? Have you seen her overreact? We’re often conditioned to fear people we’re uncertain of and who have “loud” personalities and have that negative vibe, which is our animal instincts running away from LOUD NOISES.

  137. Venting on mediocre men*

    I just want to vent. There’s a man who is above me (quite above me) in our field. One day, he was assigned to look over my work. He has to be only 5-6 years older than me, in his early 30s. Well, he said my work was good and then he had to whisper to me “I have no clue how I got this job. Honestly, I think it’s because I was a shoe in with being a veteran, but I have no clue what I’m doing. That’s why I’ll just borrow your work for today.” I was like !!! What?? I’ve been here for a year and you’ve been here for 3 and about to be promoted and I can answer more questions about your job than you can! When I chuckled uncomfortably he decided to add “Maybe it’s because I’m the only guy on the team too, you know. It’s good to have male leadership.”

    Oh my lort. I mentioned this to my supervisor and she was like “Yeah, we all know he’s useless but he’s charming!” Bleh

      1. valentine*

        look for another job.
        Yeah. You gotta get outta there.

        What does “borrow your work” mean? Because your supervisor approving his sexism is the real death knell here.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There is nothing charming about a person who embraces their mediocrity and lap up the benefits of just being a “dude” and a veteran!?

      Whereas other vets are out there starving and suffering on our streets. But this guy…he’s charming. NOT THANK YOU.

      We have hired charming people and fired them just as quick as soon as they’ve shown themselves to be worthless. Just yukc.

  138. Let's Just Say Eleven*

    I’m contemplating accepting a job that would be a fairly large pay cut, but that, due to life circumstances, might be the right thing to do. Long story short – I’d love to hear stories from people who have also made this choice and it worked out for them. A little confidence bolstering to remind myself that this won’t set me up for being underpaid for the rest of my career would go a long way.

    Longer story: I’ve been a consultant for the past 5 years, making a comfortable amount. I recently moved across the country to live with my boyfriend, but we broke up (it was very mutual) and although we’re perfectly amicable and he’s welcomed me to continue living with him until I find a job and can move out, I’d of course like to make that happen sooner rather than later. My consulting job is no longer paying the bills, but I have savings to fall back on for a few months.

    So, I found a job I’m excited about – it would let me enter an industry I’d really like to enter but have little experience in, it would give me official management experience, and I know from a mutual friend that the manager I’d work under is excellent. But when they told me the range they’re offering I was extremely disappointed. It’d be a 15-20k pay cut (although at least it’d be stable, rather than the feast or famine I’m used to). They do say they’d like to work with me on developing a growth plan that would get me closer to what I’d like to be making in the future, which I certainly appreciate. I’m not convinced I could find another job as well suited to me in this industry quickly.

    Any words of wisdom/stories to share?

    1. Kiwiii*

      If you think that you can 1) make the pay cut work for your lifestyle (won’t have to make any sacrifices you can’t deal with – I don’t have a sense if 15k is like 30% of your income or 10%) and 2) commit to leaving and leveraging the experience after 2 years or so if it seems like their efforts to develop a growth plan for you are either happening on a much slower pace than you anticipated and/or won’t be happening at all. It sounds like a wonderful “in” to an industry you’re interested in. Lots of careers involve taking a step or two back in order to take quicker steps in the future.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      I’ve done this. It was, without question, worth it for me. But you should be prepared for it to have a long-term impact on your salary.

      My story: I was in a role that, while it was great on paper, wasn’t a good fit for me (or me for it). I intentionally took a step back in hierarchy (I went from directing multiple programs to being a deputy on one program). In addition, the organization I left had unusually high salaries, and the organization I left for had slightly-under-average salaries. In all, I took a 37% pay cut.

      I was able to pivot my career into focusing on the work I most want to do, and to work for an organization that better shared my values. My life is better in more ways than I can count — I work fewer hours, I’m less stressed and anxious, I’m not splitting my time between multiple state offices, etc. etc. etc. But it’s been five years, I’ve gotten two promotions, and I’m still $10k off the salary I had when I left my last job. So it’s a tradeoff — one I’d make over and over again, but it still carried very significant costs.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve done this several times, actually, and it’s always worked out for me. My main thing is “Can I still pay the bills?”

      I’m not sure if I understand your situation fully, though. Are you moving to a more affordable area?

      You say

      My consulting job is no longer paying the bills, but I have savings to fall back on for a few months.

      and then

      It’d be a 15-20k pay cut (although at least it’d be stable, rather than the feast or famine I’m used to).

      So with your current job (less steady but a lot more), you can’t pay the bill, but with the new job, you’d be taking a huge pay cut. Would you be able to pay the bills? Are you moving to a cheaper living situation?

      1. Let's Just Say Eleven*

        Basically in my consulting work I was paid on a project by project basis, and for the past 5 years it’s been steady enough to amount to a comfortable annual salary. But now, for various reasons, I have many fewer projects. Like, from 100 hours of work a month to 15 hours a month. Part of that is because I’m purposefully not taking on long-term projects that would be hard to get out of if I got a new job, and part of it is that a few major clients have left the consulting firm I work for. So it’s not sustainable anymore and I also have been wanting to move to a more regular job for a little while anyway.

        1. Let's Just Say Eleven*

          But you’re right that my current job no longer pays as much as it used to! I definitely do need to find something else soon, which contributes to my willingness to accept a lower rate than I’d prefer.

  139. Shirogane*

    Can I get help in understanding where the distinction is drawn in terms of responsibility between me and my boss and whether I should be advocating for a raise later on?

    I recently graduate college and previously worked in jobs where me vs. my boss would have different roles and obviously different pay grades (ex. barista vs. cafe manager)

    Now I’m working for a small company where my department is just me and my boss. My grandboss overlooks another department as well but generally helps me and boss in our workload. Our workload is basically shared amongst all of us – there’s an inbox that we all have access to and our documents are shared in a cloud where the expectation is anyone who’s available will grab the next assignment.

    Since our work is shared amongst us in a free-for-all, I’m confused as to whether I should advocate for a higher pay once I’ve fully grasped all the stuff that my boss and grandboss do? At 3 months in, I’ve been told I’m already doing a good chunk of my boss’s usual work and only need to learn 2 more concepts until I’m at their “level” (though obviously I lack my boss’s level of experience). When I asked grandboss about whether it’ll take me a year to learn and do what boss and grandboss do, he scoffed and said it’d take another month or two tops.

    But it seems that now I’m stuck with the role of Llama Hugging Officer even though I’m going to be literally doing what my boss does, except for taking calls from executives. I know I shouldn’t suddenly become VP of Llama Hugging after learning everything but is it weird that I can’t become a Senior Llama Hugging Officer later on? My worry is that I’m stuck in a stagnant position where I’ll forever make minimum wage since our department is tiny. Could I at least have some backing to ask for a small raise in a year or so? Or would moving to a bigger department be a better chance?

    If my responsibilities didn’t overlap so much with my boss and grandboss, I’d be less confused. But we all work with the same documents and system so this murkiness is a headache…

    1. Kiwiii*

      At 3 months in it’s going to be really difficult for you to assess appropriately if your role and your boss’s are genuinely the same. A couple things that might be different — he manages you, I’m assuming, is privy to discussions at a higher level, takes calls from execs, maybe needs to be available at different hours/for emergencies, has been there longer and has more experience, is the deciding voice or factor on some projects. These are all things that would merit higher pay and/or position than a role that does the same projects.

      Things to also think about – some roles are set up as a “we’ll call you this until you’re fully trained and then promote you” and some are “we’ll call you this for two years and then promote you” and some are “you report to this person and so you’re called this”. It might take some effort and research into how your company operates and what these timelines look like. That said, it’s a pretty regular ask after a year or 2 to ask for a raise, since you’re then presumably no longer training your tasks. That raise would be based on that competence rather than “I do the same work as my boss”.

      1. Shirogane*

        Yes, that’s totally understandable. But the thing is, my boss has been very clear that I’m doing exactly what he does and the only major difference is that he takes calls from execs every few months. We arrive and leavr at the same time anf our department doesn’t work on weekends. We don’t work on any projects, we only process documents. I’d understand if we work on different levels of difficult documents, but I’m expected to work on everything that my boss/grandboss can do, regardless of the complexity. So it kinda weirds me out that my boss calls me over because he couldn’t find the error on the document he started on or if I need to do his leftover work when he’s out.

        1. Kiwiii*

          Yeah, the answer very well might be that your boss has been there longer or that he manages you, and that’s why he’s a Senior Llama Hugger and you’re not. See if you can find (or find a reasonable way to ask for) yours/his/other Llama Hugging job descriptions to see if there’s something he does that you’re not seeing or if it’s just seniority or if it’s something else that you’d have to do to get moved to the same title as him for doing the same work.

          I know in my role, I was hired somewhat recently as a Llama Groomer I, but once we get to review time I’ll be bumped to a Llama Groomer II role (I’ll have been here about 8 months) because I’m fully trained, and I’ll really just have to continue learning context for the work and have been here over a year to be promoted to a Llama Groomer III. My Manager is a V mostly because he manages this team. I literally have a sheet that breaks down the metrics I’d have to meet to be promoted to each tier.

    2. Dasein9*

      I’d look at how much responsibility I had when I started, versus how much I have a year in and make a case that the increased responsibility merits increased pay.

      As for future growth, I’m going to say what I’m pretty sure Alison would say: Ask! You can ask about directions of growth and increased responsibility. There are lots of scripts on this blog that can help with how to word that conversation. Essentially, try to approach it as “where are the company’s needs and how can I grow into helping with those?” instead of “what can you do for me?”

  140. Anxious anon*

    How much effort should I put into this job application?
    Last year I interviewed for a job that felt like a very good fit for me. I didn’t get it and I’m fairly certain it went to an inside candidate. Someone who works at this institution told me that they strongly favor internal candidates, and they’re required to post the job and interview a set number of candidates even if they have someone in mind. The position has just been posted again.
    I think I could improve on my last application by tracking down some old work contacts, finding stronger references, etc., all of which will cause me a bunch of anxiety, or I could just gently tweak my last application and let the chips fall where they may. I don’t want to miss the opportunity, but I also don’t want to go to huge lengths if it’s a serious long shot.
    What would you do?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It sounds like you weren’t rejected due to your references, since it was just a “fill the quota” interview setup. So I would just tweak and strengthen your application but without the added anxiety of digging out what you think are stronger references. In reality unless you’re using extra weak references or someone is sandbagging you in there, it’s too much stress for anyone to be thinking that deep into their references!

      1. Anxious anon*

        Thanks. I feel good about my references and my experience, but there are aspects of this position that relate to a job I held a long time ago. Last time they asked about that experience and if I still had any contacts at the company, but it was so long ago, I didn’t. Maybe I can find better ways to spin my more recent work.

        1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          That might also be the straw they grabbed at to be the excuse why they hired their inside candidate instead of you.

          “Well, I know Anon had all the skills we wanted, but she’s no longer in touch with anyone from Company X who could vouch for her. InsiderCandidate has the same skills and Wakeen, Fergus, Bob, and Karen all are serving as references.”

  141. Amber Rose*

    I don’t know what to doooo. D:

    Our CEO wants us to be HR without being HR. We can’t call ourselves that because none of us have training. But also he wants us to have a little bit of training, but not too much. Like 1 or 2 day courses.

    I don’t think I can sign people up for a 2 day HR class! Everything I can find are like, diploma programs.

    I have no idea how to get the training we need within the confines of what the CEO expects. What related things might be handy? Like, communications courses or something? (I am in Canada if that means anything)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There are seminars and webinars that are for a quick dip in basic HR stuff out there. It’s not through a college usually. Try Fred Pryor seminars. It’s exactly what your boss wants and it sucks as much as you’d assume it does.

    2. Jamie*

      A subscription to SHRM used to have some good resources. I haven’t seen it in several years so Idk if that’s changed.

  142. Bee*

    A “boss holiday gift collection” success story!

    I’m on a team as an individual contributor, among 3 others. we have 2 managers above us, a director and a senior director. One of the other ICs sent out an email to us and the managers asking if we all wanted to chip in a total of $40 (!) per person to purchase holiday presents for the director and senior director, both of whom, while lovely women, make well into 6 figures and don’t need presents from their subordinates. Additionally, the woman organizing this reached out to the two peers she shared a manager with asking if they would also want to chip in an additional $20 to purchase a present for their manager. So $40-$60 per individual contributor, which is, IMO, way too much.

    As everyone else responded to the thread saying they were in, I fretted over pushing back vs. just going along with it. But I finally steeled myself and sent back a note directly to the organizer politely begging off, saying I planned to get my manager, the director, and senior director all cards in lieu of monetary gifts. One of the managers (not mine) included us all in an email thread to brainstorm gifts, and I responded saying the same thing to her.

    I later found out that after that, the manager I responded to ended up talking to the organizer, basically asking if monetary gifts were necessary and if we should all just give whatever individual gift we were comfortable with. So now no one is on the hook to spend any money at all on boss presents! I’m really happy I pushed back, especially because one of the managers just got married and we all contributed a decent amount of money to her bridal shower (which I was happy to do). But it was really adding up for some people and I’m glad it was resolved in a fairly undramatic way–it can be done!

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I’m really glad it worked out the way it did! However, I have to say I’m side-eyeing the manager who was originally okay enough with the idea to suggest gift ideas and the other manager who, prompted by you, finally asked the organizer (a subordinate) if it was okay not to chip in money for a gift. The way that conversation should have gone is at least one manager steps up and sends email to subordinate and everyone else: there’s no need to ‘gift up’ here, everyone can feel free to do what they prefer to acknowledge the holidays.

  143. Chronic Overthinker*

    Need some advice from the Admin/Receptionist perspective. I could be over-reacting as my hormones are out of whack today, but what are the warning signs that you’re not doing well and could be on the out? I had a talking to from one of the higher ups (not my direct supervisor) about second hand performance issues, nothing particularly bad, but need to crack down on the gatekeeping. Now I’m wondering if I’m even cut out for this. And I never truly understood probationary periods when most jobs are at will employment. Don’t know if I just need to vent or if I need to find something else…

    1. banzo_bean*

      Hmm, I guess it depends on what you’re hearing. If it’s something that you think can be coached then they’re probably not that upset with poor gatekeeping if the rest of your performance isn’t suffering.

      I really struggled with admin because even when you’re doing well, your mistakes are always more visible than others. Plus your job is to make everyone else’s life easier so the tolerance for minor mistakes is lower- because any inconvenience can make you seem redundant.

      Do you like the job/role? Can you approach your direct supervisor to discuss the issues the higher up discussed with you? This may be a case of “that one exec has very weird preferences! but the rest of us don’t care that much.”

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not sure what the feedback was here, is this that they said you aren’t gatekeeping or that you’re over-gatekeeping?

      It sounds just like a verbal “Hey BTW, make sure you confirm who someone is before you just let them in my office or forward them to my phone.” which isn’t saying you’re bad or not cut out for the job.

      It’s just like when you catch an error in a document and say “FYI, this happened, so you’re aware, please pay closer attention next time.” it’s not “You suck at your job and should rethink your career choices!”

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        It’s more inconsistent gatekeeping with one particular person. Everyone else seems to be good/happy with mostly everything else, but I started out on a bad foot with this person in the beginning of my career, finally thought we were repairing our work relationship to find out their not happy with my current work. This person just unnerves me because whatever I do, they always have to comment on/critique it. So I think I make more mistakes with them because I am afraid of making mistakes to begin with.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah okay. So what helps me is to remember you cannot please everyone. Some people THRIVE on finding these weird mistakes and pointing them out, then rubbing your nose in it. They don’t get to crumble your self esteem and start making you feel like an imposter. They sound like they’re not necessarily malicious or evil by any means but just…a nitpicking nitpicker.

          My dad is a nitpicking nitpicker who loves to say “nobody is perfect, I’m just giving you some ideas on how to improve but yeah otherwise you’re fine BUT it could be even better!!!” [I have squashed it more and more over the years because we share the same DNA and stubborn/vocal is in there really deep, I don’t have an ounce of fear of my father, lol].

          If 99% of the crew is saying “Good job, we like you and how you work!” that’s enough. That 1% nitpicking nitpicker stuff is just someone having to say “Oh I hear there’s going to be rain” when really the forecast said nothing of the sort.

          You are not a pretzel, you cannot bend yourself out of shape for people who aren’t sure if they want a pretzel or a cinnabon.

          1. Chronic Overthinker*

            The hardest part about this is that they’re the assistant to the Grandboss. Grandboss seems neither yay or yay regarding my work, so it is imperative that I do better so that I can look better to Grandboss, but I also want to make sure I am improving, not taking a step back. But this is why I have my namesake. I am a chronic overthinker. Gah, I hate my brain.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I’m prone to overthinking as well, I totally get it.

              Honestly though, you can only try so hard. Not everyone is going to like you and just because someone may not like you doesn’t mean that you’re the problem! Yes, there’s a possibility that the grandboss has a tainted version of you courtesy of their assistant being the issue but really…it’s just one pond and these people will probably not be there forever and ever. They are only a drop in that career bucket!

  144. Invisible Fish*

    I’d like to hear about folks’ experiences with bullies who were in positions of authority- how did you respond and what happened next? I’m currently deciding how I should best approach the situation in which I find myself, and I feel learning from others will be extremely beneficial. (My situation: I’m stuck with a bully who is highly invested in a hierarchical power structure, and she can’t be trusted. She delights in putting people in their “place” and is down right disdainful of/disrespectful of those she considers to be “lower” than her, like clerks or aides. Discussing the issue with the person above her = that person doing nothing. Complaints to HR about unprofessional behavior = no change, no consequences. I’m hoping hearing about other people’s experiences will help me look at things from other perspectives/expand how I look at things.)

    1. Me*

      I worked for that guy and his boss recently made it so I no longer report to him. But it was a long time coming and not an option in your case.

      Some bullies will respond to either being called out on their behavior or alternately acting totally unfazed and pleasant as pie.

      But in my experience, especially with position of power bullies, your best option is to find a new employer. It will wear on you psychologically bit by bit until you are beaten down, miserable and don’t know what normal behavior is.

      1. Earthwalker*

        Yes, this. Get out before your good attitude and work habits are bent. You could stay and prove you can outlast them but it’ll cost you psychologically.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sadly when there’s nowhere to turn and everyone in the company with the authority required to make them stop are avoiding and burying their heads, the only option is to leave. You shouldn’t be chased out like that but it’s the sad reality.

      Unless she’s doing something that’s classified as harassment, then you can toot that horn and try to bring a formal action against her. Then if they bury their heads in the sand, they are on the hook for that lawsuit as well. However bullying in general isn’t harassment and won’t go very far, unless you can pinpoint a blatant discrimination or harassment element =( And then you still run the risk of the places not caring about retaliation being illegal, if they allow for bullying, they’re probably not above shrugging you off and letting you go for clawing up the pole higher and higher.

    3. irene adler*

      I contacted my EAP program for suggestions in dealing with my bully.
      Given management is not willing to take action, they suggested that I find other employment (not as easy as it sounds).

      They offered suggestions like avoiding interaction with him (use email instead of face-to-face), limiting any direct conversations I had to have with him, don’t ‘take the bait’ when he was looking for someone to bully, try to have another party present when I had to interact with him directly, practice self-care when he did attack me.

      Yeah, not a lot of help, were they?
      So I do my best to stay away. I know you can’t do that given your bully is your boss. Don’t let their actions affect your sense of self-worth. Remember, it is their issue-all the way. You didn’t cause them to bully you. You do not deserve the bullying treatment.

      1. CM*

        This kind of strategy can work if you have a set-up where you technically don’t HAVE TO interact with the person. So, I did this for several years with an exec in a neighboring department — I would just pass messages through his staff and avoid dealing with him directly unless it was absolutely necessary. It did nothing to change his behavior, but it was good for my sense of well-being because it meant he only bugged me a few times a year instead of every week.

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I kept very, very detailed notes and left them with HR at the exit interview after I’d quit.

      He was transferred to a different worksite where he’d do the same job under more supervision and out of his mentor’s line of report, and terminated before the next year was up. According to LinkedIn, he is now working in a much lower level service-sector job.

    5. Gatomon*

      I tried a bunch of things, unsuccessfully. I wasn’t the only victim of the office bully, but she targeted me in particular, and because she was management and backed up by her boss, the supreme bully, they had a LOT of tools at their disposal and little oversight. Ultimately I had to quit for my own sanity. It’s worked out great for me long term, but I do think I could have been happy and successful in that job if it weren’t for these two teaming up against me.

      I think your company has made it clear that they don’t intend to take any action. There’s not much you can do if this person is targeting you in particular. People who act like this in the workplace take pleasure just from the sense of power they have and the pain they can cause you. They will not stop or change. The more you report to management and HR, the more opportunities you give the bully to paint you as a troublemaker, especially if everyone else is silently suffering this person instead of speaking up. The company will only act when and if they decide this bully is too much of a risk compared to the “reward” they bring.

      For example, the office manager at my job was known for discriminating against employees, harassing women and in general being a horrid, abusive boss. He not only did his own bullying, but he cultivated a supervisory staff of bullies (and it was one of them was who finally drove me out.) They let him stay for 22 years. 22 freakin’ years, despite multiple successful lawsuits against him for discrimination and sexual harassment, despite numerous complaints to HR and the union. Only when he finally slipped and put something discriminatory in an email about clients did they suddenly swoop in to investigate. This was after I quit, but from what I heard, HR/upper management pretended to be quite shocked and appalled at what they “discovered” was going on in our little branch office, and they put on a big production about investigating and firing him. Then it even got spun in the local news by the PR department as a layoff for budgetary reasons.

      Yet two years before when he was blatantly discriminating against an employee with a disability, they didn’t even bother talking to any of us who witnessed the incidents of discrimination during their investigation. One coworker called HR (who was in another city) to try and give them some information, and they refused to even listen to her. She was a well-regarded employee who’d been there 17 years, and they wouldn’t even hear what she had to say as a direct witness.

      HR and upper management knew exactly what was going on. They knew exactly who this guy was, and they choose to do NOTHING about it, time and time again. Only when the potential scandal involved clients did they take any action. I’m not saying they shouldn’t have taken action at the client-impacting point, but my feeling is that they had plenty of data and justification to take action long before it GOT to that point. But they chose not to. Nothing I could have done could have been effective because the people with the ability to enforce any consequences refused to take action.

      tl;dr: don’t waste your time, we only get one life so why are you fighting to work in a place that condones this kind of behavior?

      1. Gatomon*

        P.S.: The supreme bully is still a prominent member of the community and still on the board of the local YMCA. (I so, so wish I was making that up.) The supervisor bully who drove me out? She’s an employee engagement manager now at a different employer!

    6. CM*

      The thing to understand about bullies is that they view interpersonal interactions as a power struggle where someone always has to end up in a one-down position. They aren’t trying to learn, or understand, or share, or make a connection. So there are two things you can do — fully refuse to let them wrestle you into a one-down position (which leads to a risky confrontation) or else give up right away and let it happen (no confrontation, but it feels bad). The worst option is to resist at first and then give up later, because then you have to have the risky confrontation and the bad feelings, both.

      I’ve had risky confrontations with three bullies during my career — two men and a woman, two bosses I reported to and one random exec I didn’t report to. All three of them got SUPER mad, screamed at me, threatened to fire me (this is the go-to move because it’s very intimidating), DID NOT actually fire me (though other bullies might, which is why it’s risky), and then either stopped trying to bully me (the two men) or moved on to more indirect bullying tactics that were harder to stop through confrontation (the woman).

      It’s hard to explain what I did during the confrontations, but it was not about a big picture conversation or a heart-to-heart or whatever — it was just that, once I’d decided I’d had enough, the next time they tried to bully me, in the moment, I refused to cede any ground. I was just super disagreeable and unfriendly without raising my voice or swearing or saying anything threatening. For example, one of them liked to tell lies, so I kept saying, “That’s not true,” and refused to back down. It became kind of a childish conversation where they were like, “Yes it is,” and I was like, “No it’s not,” over and over, but they really didn’t like being challenged and every time we went through the cycle it got more unpleasant for them and funnier for me.

      It was also really stressful — like I said, there is a risk it ends with getting fired. But I would still choose to confront them 100 times over again.

  145. banzo_bean*

    Still on my job search- and currently in the phase where I’m interviewing a lot! I am trying to break into a technical field so interviews are case studies/technical challenges. I’m interviewing for Analyst/Data Scientist roles

    I don’t struggle much with take home challenges but I absolutely freeze up when I’m in a room with people watching me work. I struggle to narrate my process, come up with ideas, and even perform basic math.

    Any suggestions for how to practice this/where I can find sample challenges? I’m practicing somewhat using the challenges I can replicate at home, but part of what I struggle with is the coming up with ideas on the spot so I need new practice material. Any suggestions/tips/resources would be greatly appreciated.

    Also on a somewhat related note- I’m interviewing in a suit- but when it comes time do whiteboarding/technical stuff. It is ok to take the jacket off (I have a nice blouse on underneath) when I reach this part? It’s really hard to do some of stuff with a stuffy jacket on.

    1. Susan K*

      Something I’ve done to improve my interview skills is to write down the interview questions after the interview and save them to build an interview question bank. Then I take my time and write out how I wish I had answered the questions, or how I would have answered them if they had given me the questions in advance. When I’m preparing for my next interview, I look at the answers I wrote and practice saying them. Even though I rarely get asked the exact same questions again, there are a lot of similar ones, especially the, “Tell me about a time when…” questions, because there are some stories that work well as answers to several different questions.

      I think you could do something similar with the case studies. Practice using the ones you’ve already been given. If you bomb an interview because you froze up during the case study, go home and do it in the comfort of your home, without all the pressure of the interview, and figure out how you would do it if it were a take-home thing instead. You probably won’t get the same one at the next interview, but the more you practice, the more you’ll have a process to fall back on when you are doing it under the pressure of an interview.

    2. Anonymouse*

      Oh man, look into the consulting industry. There are TONS of resources out there dedicated to teaching you how to approach and “crack” case studies. I’m not sure how closely related your field is to consulting case studies, but most resources (and consulting firms themselves, too — think Deloitte, PwC, BCG) have hundreds of sample case studies — you may have to sort through them a bit to find the ones that fit your specific field. Once you have a good stack of samples, practice with them as if you were presenting in an interview, talking out loud to yourself and doing whatever you’d be doing on a whiteboard. You can even get a friend to help “judge” you.

      As for the suit — not sure about this, but I think it’d look a tiny bit awkward to have someone take off their jacket while presenting. If you really can’t do the interactive stuff with your jacket on, I’d consider going without the jacket at all, as long as your top is nice/fancy enough.

    3. DropBear11*

      So I have a few suggestions (I’m in data science too, so hopefully my experience can help you : (1) get a white board and literally practice white boarding questions on it, this is very important to making you feel at ease in an interview, (2) get lists of problems: Springboard (a boot camp company) has a great list of 100 data science interview questions and other blogs have similar lists (3) make sure you can do your data prep and your modeling For a given interview/test in the same language ( eg if, like everyone, you took data wrangling In R and ML in Python, you’d better learn to wrangle data in Python too) . Good luck !

      1. banzo_bean*

        Thanks for these suggestions. I will definitely take your advice on getting the whiteboard.
        I’m through and through just Python heavy so I guess I’ll need to learn how to do some wrangling in R. I’ve been practicing off the springboard list (among others) so I’m glad that’s the right direction!

  146. Freeelancin*

    Freelancers!

    I work as a freelancer. My company offered to fly me out for their holiday party. How lovely! Except, they hinted I would also need to attend meetings the entire day before the party. Attendence of the party is optional, but they’re being evasive about:

    1. whether getting travel paid for is contingent on attending the meetings
    2. would they compensate me for that time? (I will not go if they don’t, which I haven’t made explicitly clear yet)
    3. what the contents of the day of meetings actually entails

    The part that’s confusing is that it isn’t a mandatory event. I want to go to the party, but not the meetings. Thoughts? Assistance? Language? (I’ve already emailed and asked for more details, cited my status as an IC, and asked for clarifcation on compensation [I don’t have an hourly rate], adn this isn’t in my contract with them)

    1. LuckySophia*

      I am not a tax accountant, but here’s my best guess: Maybe the meeting attendance is the official “business need” that justifies them paying for your travel costs. (Meaning, I assume your travel costs will be a tax-deductible business expense for the company, IF — and only if — there is an actual “business purpose” for you to be there.)

      If there’s no “business purpose”, then maybe the IRS would make the company classify your travel costs as “additional compensation” to you.

      1. Susan K*

        I agree… Even aside from any tax considerations, I’m guessing it would be hard to justify the expense of flying a freelancer out there just for the party. They’re probably trying to be nice by finding a way to give you a chance to attend the party, which is to bring you there for business reasons the day before the party.

        Honestly, I don’t think it’s reasonable for you to expect them to pay for your travel to the party if you’re not going to the meetings. I doubt they’re paying for limos for the local employees (or even taxis, or mileage). If you attend the meetings, though, they absolutely need to pay you for your time, and you should work that out with them ahead of time as far as how many hours of work and how much they’re paying you.

  147. Overeducated*

    I have a one hour phone interview for one of my “long term career goal” jobs! It’s a stretch and I don’t expect to actually get the job if anyone more senior is in the running, but it’s still exciting. It’s with a small agency, so if I don’t get it I hope to make a good enough impression on the hiring panel to be considered in the future when i have more experience.

    The worrisome part is that they asked for dates and times I’m available the week after Thanksgiving, and then said they’d get back to me next week or early that Monday morning. I had said I could do Monday, but I’m on maternity leave right now and need a day’s notice for childcare; it would be a problem to line it up for all Monday just in case and then ALSO need it another day. Should I write back next Wednesday if I haven’t heard and say “hey looking forward to the interview, I’m no longer able Monday but im available the other days”? Or just hope they wouldn’t book me for a same-day interview?

    1. WellRed*

      I’d hope they won’t book a same day. With the holiday, I wouldn’t bother trying to reach anyone on Wednesday. At that point, getting anything scheduled is nil.

  148. Princesa Zelda*

    I’m a government employee, and I watched the news this morning and found I’m getting a raise! :D The mayor was quite proud of herself.

    Now for it to be formally announced by my boss with, like, a timeline….

  149. Rookie*

    Question for the group: Is it worth bringing up my awful coworker in my exit interview?

    Long story short: I’m leaving this job for several reasons but my coworker is a big part of it. She’s a bully, talks behind others’ backs and makes the interns cry. Really, she’s just an awful person and makes it hard to do the job. She’s been disciplined before and the boss is fully aware she makes people miserable, but his attitude seems to be, well she’s a hard worker and it would be too much work to replace her. He even said I need to stand up for myself. I have an exit interview coming up and I’m on the fence about mentioning my witchy coworker. Will it make a difference at all?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since she already has a record of being disciplined, the complaint and proof that she’s lead to turnover could be a final straw. So it may be worth it. In reality you’ve got another job you’re leaving for, right? so you’re not banking on this place being an immediate reference? So I would be as truthful and open as you want to be in the exit interview. Often they’re just procedural and don’t matter, sometimes it can leave a bad taste in their mouths and reflect on a reference but that’s not the norm. The real point is to debrief and to possibly flush out problems to avoid this in the future, including if there’s a bully in the office chasing people out the door.

      You know your company better than us, so I’d think about how they’ve used information in exit interviews before if you’re aware of any of that.

      Do whatever makes you comfortable and feel good in the end. If unloading the real reason off your chest is cathartic to you, then I’d say go for it. At least it’s on their backs and off yours now.

    3. Zona the Great*

      Well, isn’t the reason also to do with his response to the complaints? I’d mention the bully and I’d also mention your conversations with him that led you here. His inaction is a major factor as well.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      If the exit interview is with your manager, probably the most you should say is “I’ve already brought up my concerns with coworker’s behavior” and leave it. He knows, and he’s chosen the path of least resistance. If it’s with HR, I’d strongly consider both your observations of her behaviors (esp making interns cry) and your manager’s non-response when you’ve brought up concerns.

      Will it make a difference? Hard to say, but I wouldn’t be on it until more people report examples of her lousy behavior and the manager’s enabling. Like, other current employees bailing out and no interns accepting full time job offers after their experience with her.

  150. Money Talk*

    I’m in a mid-level administrative public-sector position that I’m not growing in, but it pays really well compared to what’s typical for my area. I resolved to stick it out until I see something open that pays comparably – I’m not learning anything new and I finish all my work so quickly that most of the time I’m just reading the news or reorganizing the supply closet, but the pay and benefits can’t be beat. I recently came across a job listing for an entry level position in the finance industry that boasts competitive pay and benefits plus opportunities for growth (something I know to be true because a look at their Team page features an acquaintance of mine who started in the entry-level position and worked their way up to VP) – but they don’t explicitly state the salary/hourly wage. Would it be rude to ask before I submit an application? I just don’t want to waste their time if it turns out to be a pay cut I can’t afford to take.

    1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      This is the perfect time to network! Reach out to your acquaintance and ask about the job/culture/pay. Explain what’s up.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      Many companies do consider it rude to ask. However, given how they advertise themselves, they should be more understanding of the question. I would ask for a range or the minimum starting salary (people get so sensitive about providing the whole range).

      Also, is there any self-study that you can do with your spare time at work? Take an advanced Excel course, get certified in something, or pick a topic that you love to research in-depth.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Yeah, maybe approach it as trying to clarify what “entry-level” means. Been reading through the archives here and apparently my assumption that “entry-level” means “first job after college or low-wage service jobs with no relevant experience required and mediocre wages” isn’t shared by managers.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Interesting, I’m not seeing anything that makes me think the company would be more open to being asked about pay before applying for the position.

        My recommendation is 1) reach out to your network and 2) apply. Salary will likely come up at the phone screen stage if you make it there.

        Since this is an entry-level job, I don’t see HR or a hiring manager finding a reason to disrupt their normal process to help you decide whether to apply or not.

  151. halfwolf*

    i need some help – my office just changed the way it does year-end reviews, and i’m being asked to set general professional/development goals for the next year. the issue is my goal for the next year is to get a new job somewhere else, preferably long before the year is up. does anyone have any advice as to how to think about answering these questions?

    1. Kiwiii*

      If you were staying, what would you be working towards or hoping to accomplish? Job hunts sometimes take a long time, give yourself something you can hold yourself to. (and if it’s such a new/weird objective for you, see what your coworkers are writing or ask your boss what they expect?)

      1. halfwolf*

        thanks! that’s similar to some advice i’ve gotten from friends, and i’m feeling a bit better about the situation now. the issue is partially my role – not to dox myself too much, but i’m in a support role rather than a contributor in my own right, and that’s clouding me a bit. now the trickiest question is what changes do i want to see my employer make over the next few years, when my gut reaction is “…sorry, but i don’t really care.”

        1. Alianora*

          Again, approach that question as if you were going to stay. What would make this a more appealing place to work?

        2. Kiwiii*

          Yeah the answer to that might be “A more clear path from support staff to individual contributor” or “more training opportunities for support staff”

    2. merp*

      At my last job, I framed it in my mind as “what do I want to finish before I leave this job?” Or, if not completely finish, get to a point where I feel good handing it off. Maybe there’s something like that in your job that could be a goal?

  152. justkiya*

    Apparently, one of the companies here won’t/can’t tell you your potential salary until AFTER they extend an offer. I’m so very baffled that they are willing to waste people’s time like that – I thought that not including it on the job posting was the worst folks did!

    1. Anonymouse*

      They do this because it gives the company the most control. If you’re not proactively negotiating salary or bringing it up in the interview process, the company can just put together the offer with the salary on their own terms and hand it over to you. Don’t hold your breath waiting for the company to give you the salary upfront if that’s important to you.

      1. justkiya*

        Breath is totally not held – it just seems…..backwards. It’s not like they’d have any LESS control if they told you up front!

    2. annony*

      They won’t even give a range? I get not knowing the exact number since it depends on experience/skills, but they have to know the range they are working with!

        1. Gumby*

          “Well, if the company needs to be that secretive about it, I assume it is exceedingly low. I wish you the best in filling the position but need to withdraw my candidacy under those conditions.”

        2. The New Wanderer*

          *receives offer*

          “OH. Well, I understand now why you didn’t mention salary earlier. Sorry, I’m not working for considerably less than market rate. Unless you are willing to come up to offer + $X, I’m afraid we’re too far apart for me to accept.”

    3. Watermelon M*

      OOH. This kills me. I had a job do this to me. Wouldn’t give me the offer and potential salary until AFTER I accepted!! And after the physical and background check was passed! I was like…no. It’s not worth me expending all this time and quitting my job for an offer and salary that is still a mystery.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        What…? But, without that information, you don’t have actually have an offer…

        It makes me sad that there are candidates who are in a situation desperate enough that they would be forced to accept those conditions :(

  153. Kitten Caboodle*

    Company gives out free turkeys for Thanksgiving. I’m vegan. I don’t want it. I have been shamed by other employees that I MUST take the thing and donate it to a local church or food bank. Look, I am fine with the fact that everyone else is getting a free food item for Thanksgiving – it’s my choice not to take it, and I’m fine with that decision. I’m not asking for compensation for the lack of Thanksgiving gift. I don’t care. Everyone who wants the turkey should enjoy it. BUT, they are getting a gift and I am getting an assignment! “You must take this carcass you do not want and give it to the needy!” No. I’m not spending the weekend trying to dispose of a dead body! I think the company can keep the turkey and take it to the foodbank themselves! Why is that wrong!?!?

    1. fposte*

      It’s not. Feel free to tell anybody instructing you how to donate it “Oh, that’s a great idea–thanks for offering to do that. I’ll let the office know you’ll be picking it up.”

    2. FormerFirstTimer*

      I really don’t think you’re out of line by not taking a food item that doesn’t adhere to your personal beliefs. It would be like forcing a Muslim to take a ham or a Jewish person who keeps kosher a cheeseburger (am I right in thinking cheese and meat together are not kosher? please correct me if I’m wrong). All this to say, you’re not being unreasonable, they are.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        You’re right, but you can also give a Jewish person who keeps kosher a ham and it would be the same thing. So the Muslim person and the Jewish person can both get a ham they can’t take home. :)

    3. cmcinnyc*

      There must be, every year, someone who can’t pick up the turkey because they are out sick or left town early to travel to family far away or whatever. I’m sure the office has a contingency to donate the turkey themselves. Or Bob in Accounting can have two. This is not your problem.

    4. machinations and palindromes*

      I’m not entirely sure if you just walk in off the street with a frozen turkey, your local food bank is gonna take it off your hands. They don’t know where it’s come from, if it’s spoiled, etc.

      Have the company donate it if they feel that strongly about it.

      1. Kitten Caboodle*

        You are totally right about that. I have been calling around all day and without some history of volunteerism with the organization – they won’t take it, not to mention they need 24 hour notice for drop off.

    5. Susan K*

      F no! If they think it’s so important to donate your unwanted turkey, they can do it. Really, the company should have had a plan for what to do with unwanted turkeys, because unless it’s a really small company, there’s a good chance at least a few people don’t want them, either because they don’t eat turkey or for some other reason (no room in the freezer, going out of town for Thanksgiving, live alone and don’t want to cook a whole turkey, oven is broken…).

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Seriously. I like turkey and I wouldn’t want to deal with a whole one! I live alone, hate cooking, and travel to see family. Not to mention that I would have nowhere to put it.

      2. Antilles*

        Right. I’d just figure out who actually hands out the turkeys (CEO’s admin, mail clerk, whatever) and just let them know in advance that you appreciate the gesture but won’t be taking one, so please just send out an email to the office asking if anybody wants a spare.
        Surely there’s at least one person in your office who has a bunch of cousins/siblings/etc all meeting up and would be perfectly happy to get a second one.

      3. Natalie*

        I’m honestly surprised they’re giving out physical turkeys – every place around here that does the “holiday turkey” thing gives you a little voucher to take to the grocery store.

    6. Kitten Caboodle*

      Thanks for talking me off that ledge. I was really stressing about this all day. The truck full of turkeys just showed up. My boss summoned me to come outside to receive my gift and as I approached the truck I told him, thank you, but no thank you. He said: “Just take it and donate it.” when yet another coworker walked up behind me and chimed in: “Why don’t you just donate it? That’s what I do.” and as per your advice, I said: “You wanna donate two?” After a little bit of stuttering – she took my turkey!! I didn’t even have to touch it!

      I’m breathing such a huge sigh of relief right now.

        1. valentine*

          It’s really wrong for him to summon you and for them to pressure you. Mention that to him at some point and, next time, just tell him no, thanks without going outside.

          (I can’t believe no one offered to take extras.)

      3. Susan K*

        I’m glad at least one person here had a good outcome today!

        I like to imagine that the coworker who said, “Why don’t you just donate it? That’s what I do,” wasn’t really going to donate hers, but said she does to look generous. When you asked her to donate yours, too, she couldn’t come up with an excuse since she had just said she was going to donate hers.

    7. ACDC*

      2 years ago I was vegan in an office that gave out massive slabs (about 15 pounds) of prime rib. They gave me the meat with “sorry – maybe you’re husband will eat it!” I didn’t care until I found out that one of our warehouse workers, who was employed via a prison work-release program and wouldn’t have been able to use the meat in any capacity, was given the cash instead. I asked if I could have cash instead and they said “NOOOOO this is our office tradition!!!!!”

    8. So Many Words*

      We also get holiday turkeys but, if you choose not to take yours the company will donate it to a local food bank on your behalf – you just sign a slip. Maybe you could recommend something similar for next year…

    10. E*

      If your area has a Freecycle or other similar facebook group, often time you can post something out there to give away (even food) and it will be quickly claimed. I know there’s always several families asking for assistance around the holidays when money is tight. Not ideal, as you still have to put in work to relocate the turkey but relatively less difficult than trying to locate a food bank to accept it.

    12. CatCat*

      Tell the shaming employees that they can have the turkey and take it to a food bank if they want. Just refuse to pick up/take a turkey. Tell the organizer, “Oh, I can’t have turkey so I told Cersei and Fergus that one of them could have it. So if one of them comes by, go ahead and give them mine. They’re going to donate it to a food bank.”

    13. CM*

      Yeah, everyone else is being weird, not you. TBH, if any of those people can afford to buy a turkey on their own, then they could ALSO donate the free turkey. Or the company could donate turkeys directly. Or they could donate the money they would have spent on turkeys.

      1. scarlet magnolias*

        I’ve told a story of a place I worked at (they created the first food processor) where every Xmas they gave away a fresh organic turkey. Also did an amazing Xmas party and the bar culture was such that if I’d stayed there I would have needed a liver transplant. One employee named Jordy (this was the 80’s and he was notable for his lack of success with women and his striped pants with little preppy foxes embroidered on them) received said turkey. Put it in his car and forgot about it. Cue 6 months later, no one would park near Jordy, no one would ride with him, his car was strewn with tiny pine tree deodorizers that didn’t help. When he finally went to a gas station and popped the trunk, there was a large pale green oozing object sending out waves of corruption. He actually had to sell the car.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      My company used to do this, and while I love turkey, I have no room to store or bake one!

      If you ask around, usually another coworker will want 2 of them, ‘cause free food.

  154. FormerFirstTimer*

    Can anyone share their own experience with a 360 review of their CEO? We’re supposed to be doing one soon and I’m really worried that they won’t be as anonymous as we’re being told they are. If I give honest feedback and it somehow gets back to the CEO, I’m pretty sure there will be “unspoken” repercussions (most likely just being frozen out). I work in a very small office so I’m pretty sure you’ll be able to tell who wrote what just by their writing style.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      360’s are bogus in a lot of aspects, if you do not feel safe being honest, water it down. Since we don’t know your CEO, we can’t give you good advice on which way to go. If this was my CEO, I can tell him to his face there are issues, there’s no need to do a review about it. But yeah, some people are preciously sensitive about feedback from subordinates and they do grind an axe when it happens.

    2. CM*

      I think that, unless you have reason to believe that you can SUPER SUPER trust whoever’s handling the review to refuse to disclose individual comments, even under a lot of pressure, you’re wise to behave as if the CEO will read exactly what you wrote and know it was you.

      So, then the question of what you write/say on the 360 becomes the same as if you were deciding what to tell the CEO to their face — it doesn’t mean you should never say anything negative or critical, but it means that the same risks for retaliation are there and you have to decide whether it’s worth it to you.

  155. Liz Lemon*

    I’m in the final round of interviews for a company in a dryyyyyy climate. It’s for a large organization and it would be good for my career. I’m just worried about the air. I lived in Colorado awhile back which is both dry AND has a high altitude, and it caused major health problems for me, though I think that was due to the altitude (low oxygen) and not the dryness. BUT… IT’S HARD TO KNOW IF THE DRYNESS WASN’T A FACTOR.

    In this new city, the climate doesn’t bother me when I visit, but I’ve never lived there for an extended period. I’ve lived in LA which is dry (right?) and I don’t think that bothered me.

    What should I do?

    1. Kiwiii*

      LA is pretty dry, you should be fine, but also you can do things like add humidifiers and making sure you’re doubly hydrated to ensure you stay healthy in the dryness.

    2. fposte*

      Can you ask on forums (reddit comes to mind) for people with your health problems to see if any of them live in New City and if the dryness has been a problem for them?

    3. ACDC*

      Not a doctor, but I grew up south of LA and currently live in CO. I feel confident in saying any potential dryness is nothing to worry about, the altitude in CO takes a toll on many people and seems like the more likely culprit.

    4. ArtK*

      Assuming you mean Los Angeles and not Louisiana(!!!!), it is technically a desert due to the lack of rainfall. Just in case, though, you might want to look at ways of mitigating dryness issues, like a humidifier for your home and office.

    6. Princesa Zelda*

      I live in Arizona, and while LA’s a bit more humid it’s fairly comparable. Humidifiers work wonders and are readily available, and swamp coolers work great in the more traditionally desert-y parts of the state (except during monsoon season) but not so much in the higher altitude parts like Flagstaff.

  156. Steggy Saurus*

    Thanks to those of you who responded to my question last week about the office sharing/private office issue. In fact, it went way better than I expected largely because a) the person who I was talking about is really very reasonable and a good person and b) in my head, I’d exaggerated my fears due to some lingering PTSD from encounters with a prior staff member.

    All is resolved for now and we’ll reevaluate everything in a few months. :)

  157. AwesomeRGMom*

    On the topic of salary ranges …. as an active job hunter I’m sometimes asked for a salary range as part of submitting an (electronic) application ….. ‘Please Input Salary Range Low to High’. I’m OK with figuring the low end of my acceptable salary range, based on current salary, cost of living, expected job requirements, etc. But what about the top of that range? I’m willing to accept as much as they’d like to pay on the high end. Would it be too snarky to enter as many 9’s as the input field will take ? TY

    1. justkiya*

      :) I don’t think so – it gets across the message that you will take as much as they offer!

      Course, I’m terminally snarky, so.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I wouldn’t. It could come across as not knowing what’s realistic for the role.

      Will they let you put in zeros for both values?

    3. CM*

      I think basically the goal is to indicate the rough pay band you see yourself in for this kind of work. So, if you’ve done your research to ID the low end of the pay band, I’d put the upper limit somewhere around where that pay band tends to top out in your industry.

      Personally, it wouldn’t bother me if someone put 999999 or whatever, but it’s possible that a computer is reading it or that the data’s going to be used to sort applications somehow, so I’d try to shoot for something realistic just to be safe.

  158. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I met with a recruiter a couple of weeks ago about a position in my field at a big brand. She told me a few times that this area was new to her and she had only taken on this job because of her prior work with the company– she usually staffs finance roles, and this was decidedly not finance. So I sat with her for about an hour and described my experience and why I was interested in the role, and she did all of the usual nodding and saying that sounds about right, then she asked me to clarify some of my experience and explain how it met the requirements. All went well. I even explained certain terms that are specific to my field that she was unsure about. She gave me advice on my resume and I sent her an updated file that evening. I looked up the hiring manager and she is connected with an old boss of mine, which indicates that she (the hiring manager) is probably familiar with the type of work I do because usually my old boss only connects with her clients.

    Then I followed up with the recruiter about 10 days after we met. She said, “Well, you see, they’re looking for someone who does X, not Y– they have other people who do that– so I don’t think your experience would work for them, so I didn’t put your resume forward. But maybe you should write me a paragraph explaining how your background would work.”

    I have never, ever done Y. I have only ever done X. There is nothing in my resume that says anything about Y. At the end of my conversation with this woman, I said something about a past job and used a word that is included in Y, but in a TOTALLY different context, and that’s the only thing I can think of that would lead her to believe I have done Y (imagine I said something about providing customers with a great experience and Y is UX design, so she misinterpreted the word “experience”). So I wrote her a paragraph. I used the words she used when we first spoke. I used words from the job posting. I made it very clear (well, at least I thought so) that my experience is entirely based in X.

    That was Monday and I haven’t heard back from the recruiter. I am very, very interested in pursuing a position with this company but… I don’t know how much I can push it. I also don’t want to alienate a partner at a big recruiting firm, because who knows what might come across her desk. Should I follow up again? Maybe after Thanksgiving?

    1. Daisy-dog*

      I see no harm in a post-Thanksgiving follow-up.

      I don’t do recruiting exclusively, but it comes up in my job sometimes. I try to not screen out anyone (unless obviously wrong) without the hiring manager’s approval for this reason.

    2. Ron McDon*

      Really late replying to this, but it’s not clear from your post if you corrected her in the moment about your background? If you didn’t, I would definitely make that clear now, before she discounts you from the job.

      If you did, then yes, follow up after Thanksgiving.

      Good luck!

  159. Anon Law Student*

    tl;dr – Do I share the truth about my small-job, racist, sexist boss with my school?

    Hello everyone! This is my first week free from my awful law clerk/externship position. However, now I’m not quite sure how to handle the next step for getting credit. One of the last things I have to do to receive three externship credits for my job is to write a self-evaluation and submit it to my law school. The problem is that I don’t know if my supervisor will see my self-eval or not. One of the sections it directly listed as “Negative Feedback.” Here’s what I really want to put down:

    –My boss told me that he hated filling the law clerk position through Indeed or Craigslist because he had to wade through 80-90 applications with black and Muslim-sounding named resumes before finding someone he believed qualified. Additionally, he wouldn’t comment when a white family was running late to an appointment, but mentioned “Black Standard Time” when an African-American couple was running late. He also would ask me for decorating and fashion advice instead of legal advice. When I told him that I didn’t feel comfortable providing this kind of advice because I don’t care about decorating or fashion, he told me that he trusted my opinion anyway because I am a woman. He also commented on women’s chests as they walked by and identified actresses based on who he had seen topless in a movie. These gendered or racially charged comments occurred on a semi-regular basis.–

    However, I’m hesitant to write this as I’m not sure if it will be shared with my employer. I worked for a solo practitioner and he had all the symptoms of toxic small business culture. I also know that he’s incredibly vindictive and emotionally volatile, so I have no doubts that he would spread negative or false information about me to make it harder for me to find a post-grad job if he found out I wrote this. Is this a case of “Your boss sucks and just be glad you got out?” or “Share this with your school so that a future student doesn’t have to go through the same thing?” I truly don’t want someone else to deal with this man and feel morally obligated to share the information I know, but at the same time I also think that I need to protect myself and don’t want to risk my own neck in case he finds out about my negative comments.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Can you voice your concerns in another way, instead of in that written format? You could also hopefully ask if it’s something that’s shared with the employer as well?

      It’s that ugly sticky situation to be stuck in. But since this is through school, ask your advisors for some assistance and about your protections or lack there of. That should be the safest route, since we don’t know your school/program to give you advice in such a ethical spot.

      1. Anon Law Student*

        I’ve already contacted the dean in charge of the externship program as well as the assistant dean who helps her. In my email to them, I asked if any of this information would be shared with my former employer. Neither one has responded yet, but in all fairness I emailed them yesterday afternoon. They both seemed surprised when I voiced my concerns about getting a negative review by my supervisor. I explained that he was upset that I was leaving 9 workdays before the end of the semester and still getting credit. The externship program is based on the number of hours worked, not days. I’ve already worked double the number of required hours, so per the school I’m in the clear for getting credits other than filling out this paperwork.

        As the icing on top of all of this, I’m left my position early so that I can spend time with a parent who was diagnosed with a terminal illness that’s progressing rapidly. According to my boss, it isn’t fair that I get to leave early just because my parent is terminal and dying, and still get full credit because I satisfied the hour requirements. While venting, he said that my parent’s condition isn’t fair to him (my boss) because he hates filling the clerk position. I think my school dean thought I was exagerating when I mentioned this conversation because of how shockingly callous it was.

        1. Anon Law Student*

          Quick update – The dean just responded that the self-evaluations are confidential, but the program evaluations are not.

          1. Sequoit*

            I had a bad internship experience through my university, and they absolutely wanted to know about my negative experience. I was treated really poorly and disrespectfully by my mentor/supervisor and the school took action to ensure that mentor/supervisor never had another intern.

            I’m sure YMMV based on your university/program, but you’re right that you don’t want other students to get paired with that jerk. His behavior is atrocious. If you have any documentation of the experience or other witnesses, I would get that in writing, if at all possible.

            Good luck to you. This is a really hard situation to be in!

            1. Anon Law Student*

              Thanks! I don’t have documentation on what went on since most of what my boss said was verbal not written. There’s another attorney that may be willing to corroborate my examples, but he wasn’t there for most of them and is a personal contact of my boss (they went to law school together). He’s also extremely self-preservationist and won’t say anything that may burn a bridge or get back to my boss at any point. So I think I’m on my own here.

          2. Amy Sly*

            Ugh … don’t have much guidance here. I’m pretty sure no one ever contacted the solos that I clerked with during law school, but then I also didn’t get to many interview stages at all right out of law school.

            My gut says to tell the whole awful truth so he gets removed from the placement program. As for personal fallout, put the experience on your resume if you don’t have enough else to make up for it, but then keep him off your list of references.

            But keep in mind the only work I’ve done in the legal field 9.5 years after graduation is doc review, so please don’t assume I know what I’m talking about when it comes to getting a lawyer job.

            1. Anon Law Student*

              Fortunately, I worked before law school for several years and this is my 3rd or 4th intership/externship. I just wish it hadn’t been so bad since this is my longest legal position. I have other things on my resume too (EIC of my secondary law journal and captain of an international competition team), so I could probably leave it off if I needed to. That said, I feel like it would be useful to keep on for at least that first post-grad job. I’m looking in a different jurisdiction than where my school is located to be closer to my family, but the firm provided services that are needed everywhere – hence my hesitation to remove it entirely.

        2. cmcinnyc*

          That is just next level wow. If you can share about how awful this man is confidentially, maybe even just directly to the dean and assistant, you could limit negative feedback to something generic like “the hours vs. days nature of the internship/credit seemed to be a problem for my employer and I felt stuck between his expectations and university rules.” Sort of a call-back to what you shared privately.

          I’m so sorry about your family situation.

          1. Anon Law Student*

            This is part of the email I just received from the dean, “Self evaluations are confidential and not seen by employee. Program evaluations will be seen by students and can be anonymous or attributed.” I’m still a bit nervous about submitted this to career services in my self-eval though. I did the program eval a few months ago and knew that students could see that one.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          What a disgusting vile man.

          My advice would be to get your hours in, get your credit and then bark up every tree possible to make sure nobody gets placed with this moron again. It sounds like he needs to be removed from the program. He’s using it to get away from having to fill the position with the traditional routes because you know “Those people” apply and we can’t have any of them here! He needs to be removed from the system and kept away form students, yuck.

          This too shall pass. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this nincompoop along with such a horrible family situation.

          1. Anon Law Student*

            Thanks. I really appreciate it. I’ve been telling my law school friends about each situation as it’s come up and it was only when I sat down to write out my review that I really went, “Wow. How have I been dealing with this since April?” It wasn’t until I was venting to said parent with terminal illness (since we have generally talked on the phone multiple times a week for years), that they told me, “Why don’t you use me as an excuse to quit? I don’t mind and it’s a valid reason. Then you can visit more!” So that’s what I ended up doing.

            I just emailed the person I trust the most in my career services office to meet on Monday to get her take and to find out how much is truly confidential. She’s already aware of my family situation (kinda hard to hide when your mid-semester review is done over the phone since I was in the middle of a 9-hour drive to my parent’s place). She’s super and I truly value her opinion.

            I just…how do people like my ex-boss ever end up succeeding in life?

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Eh. Succeeding in life is very subjective.

              He’s a successful attorney it sounds like, with his own practice of some sort? But how big is that little fishbowl he’s housing himself in?

              I’ve seen many “successful” read “rich” people who are miserable brats in reality.

              He has no soul, his heart is rotten clear out. Yeah he has money and nice things but he doesn’t have a nice soul. He is doing better than a lot of nice people who deserve better but in reality, sometimes it’s the luck of the draw and where chips fall that keep people like him out of the trash where they belong.

              There are bad people in the world. Those bad people suffer by living inside their closed, awful minds. Think about how awful it would feel to hate such weird ingrained hatred for entire populations because of their complexion or socioeconomic standings.

              I’m just a hillbilly that was told by all the snobs I was going to be gutter trash wiping their butts to put a roof over my head. Yeah, they were wrong but I sure hope they found someone to change their dirty adult diapers, nobody should sit soiled even when they’re awful AF.

  160. Exit Interview*

    I’m nearing my end at my current job and have an exit interview coming up. I’ve been told the exit interview is both to go over some standard questions they have for me about why I’m leaving, but also for me to ask any questions I have. So, hivemind, what are all the things you wished you remembered to ask, did ask and were glad you did, etc?
    On my list already is paperwork for rolling over 401k, final paycheck… I know there’s probably more I should about or confirm but my mind is blank.

    1. Daisy-dog*

      When does your health insurance coverage end?
      How do you access your W2? (if you move at all – how can you update your address to get the W2?)

      Also – on the 401(k) rollover – that is usually handled through your new 401(k) provider. They provide the form and then contact the old company.

    2. irene adler*

      What happens with the unused sick time you have accrued?

      What happens with the unused PTO time you have accrued?

      How about HSA accounts? What happens with those?

  161. Emily B.*

    My supervisor wants me to function with minimal feedback. I thought I was good at that, but this is MINIMAL minimal. Part of that is the nature of our work, which involves a lot of international travel, but even when we’re in the same office, I can go a week without talking to her beyond being CCed on the same email chains.

    I’m five months in for a two year developmental fellowship program which is supposed to involve a lot of mentoring and support. I recently found out that most other people in the program have weekly check-ins with their supervisors, which sounds amazingly luxurious. I’m lucky to get five minutes one-on-one every three or four weeks, and I never know when it’s coming, so I can’t prepare and make good use of the time. She encourages me to just drop into her office when I have questions, but so often when I ask substantive questions that require some thought on her part (which I feel are the only questions I should be bringing to her, otherwise I’d just be figuring it out myself) she gets really frustrated because it’s one more thing on top of how busy she already is. I completely get that, but also I need to know how I’m doing/how to improve.

    I think part of it is a general diffusion of responsibility. I work with a lot of different teams (at a very low level) and so a lot of people are part responsible for managing me and I get very little feedback/support from any of them. Partially this means that I mess up basic tasks multiple times in a row before anyone corrects me (when there’s no way I could have known I was messing up without being told), but I also don’t know how I’m doing in general–and I don’t think anyone else does either, since I see no evidence of the various people I work for communicating about my performance (and if they are and that communication isn’t being used to help me improve, that’s not awesome either). Not only do I not know whether I’m more likely to be promoted or put on a PIP tomorrow, I don’t think anyone else does either, which is kind of terrifying.

    Anyway, questions: Is it reasonable to expect more frequent feedback/check-ins? How can I ask for that without it coming across as requiring handholding/not being willing to take initiative?

    1. fposte*

      Oof. I think it’s a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for; with somebody like the person you describe, though, it may not get very far or happen that often. “Boss, would we be able to schedule 60 minute one on ones once a month? I’m happy to fit in whenever and help with the scheduling however possible, but it would help me a lot to have a preplanned time for me to get more feedback and information.” If she has any involvement with the fellowship component, like she had to sign something to have you work there, you might bring that up, but otherwise I’d leave that out as being your problem and not hers.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if you got one and then it was hard to get others onto the calendar, unfortunately. This sounds like somebody who may be buried but who also hasn’t considered the benefits of prioritizing communication with staff.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Especially at your level of work, you have every right to expect frequent feedback and check-ins. This is pretty awful and a “sink or swim” scenario you found yourself in courtesy of your supervisors desire to push off management duties and just let you stumble around on your own and hope that someone catches you before you stumble into the secret room with their on site dragon…

      If you ask for scheduled 1:1 there’s no way to think that’s handholding, unless you want them every day or require in depth discussions for every single thing that is sent your way. I would address it in a way that says you want to be make sure you’re staying on track and not forgetting anything, make it about just that check in style and not “I need you to greenlight everything I do and walk me through the details, I can get things done relatively okay myself but this way we’re all on the same page on priorities and projects, etc.”

  162. Laika*

    Our new hire keeps referring to everyone by their first name, repeatedly, during conversations. It’s annoying and kind of weird, but obviously not something that affects his work. Is there a gentle/funny/easy way to point it out that it’s happening that it’s coming across very “I just read How To Win Friends & Influence People and only absorbed this single piece of advice”? No one else in out office does this, so I hoped he would pick it up on his own, and I could just leave it be but I think it’s affecting how people perceive him. (I’m a peer with a bit of seniority but otherwise not in a supervisory role for him)

    1. Laika*

      I considered that he’s doing it to remember named, but he’s been here for over a month now and is demonstrating in literally every conversation that he knows everyone’s name… By repeating it… Constantly…

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve ran across these people before. It’s often because they were taught by someone, somewhere along the way that you should personalize! everything!

      I get it in emails even.

      “Thank you for your assistance, Becky. And when will the next production run be done, Becky?”

      Like…gurl, this is my private [private enough] email, I know you’re talking to me, bro.

      So honestly, I hate to say this but there’s no retraining this kind of weird oddball kind of behaviors without cracking someones head with a “Your communication style is weird and uncomfortable because it’s not our office [or most other office] norm.” =( So yeah…no advice just my sympathies because it drives me up the GD wall.

    3. Banana Pancakes*

      Could it be he’s using the names repeatedly to you know actually remember people’s names until he gets them down? You said he’s a new hire so perhaps he’s overly nervous about calling someone by the wrong name? I do my best to learn people’s names quickly and feel bad about it when I screw up someone’s name.

      How do you communicate in your office? By grunting and pointing at each other? Or is it a super formal office?

      1. Laika*

        I’d intially thought it was that, but since he’s doing it so frequently and hasn’t gotten it wrong yet (and he’s been here more than a month) it feels like it’s gone past that point now!

        We’re a really informal office, and tend to use our inter-office chat if we need to, eg., call someone over/ask a question, so I think it tends to stand out a lot more for me since literally no one else does it here!!

    4. Filosofickle*

      One of my best friends does this. We’ve been close for 30 freaking years, and she still punctuates sentences with my first name throughout our conversations. I don’t get it. Perhaps she learned it in the HTWF&IP way, but she obviously isn’t trying to still woo me after so many decades. I don’t think she could stop if she tried, and even though it rubs me the wrong way I’m not going to find out because she’s a wonderful kind person and it’s just a quirk. (She’s a teacher, not a sales person or anything.)

      1. just a random teacher*

        This can very much be a “teacher habit”, since in classroom situations you’re having a bunch of short interactions with a lot of different students. It is usually much more effective to look across the room and say “Fergus, pencils are for writing, not for throwing” or “Wakeen, I see your hand, I’ll be with you in a moment” than it is to say either of those things without a name attached, so I could see this carrying over into settings where it makes less sense. (I also find myself scanning the room a lot during extended conversations with people in crowded places, because in a classroom situation you don’t really get to have an extended chat with a single student without keeping an eye on the rest of the room. It can be a hard habit to break even though I know intellectually that I do not need to keep an eye out to see if people at other tables in this restaurant have any questions or are behaving inappropriately.)

        1. Filosofickle*

          Thanks for the teacher perspective!

          I was a lifeguard for a bunch of years. I can’t be at a pool that has kids in it without scanning it constantly and monitoring what’s going on.

    5. Anon Here*

      It sounds REALLY condescending (to me) when people do this. I always took it as passive-aggressive, and a sign that the person thought little of me. I’m surprised there is actually advice anywhere suggesting that people do this. It’s annoying at best. At least the person here is doing it to everyone and not singling people out. I would just directly ask him about it.

    6. CM*

      Say his own name back to him when he does it. It might make him stop, or it might turn it into a game for you so that it’s less annoying. Either way, it’s a win.

  163. dumb dumb*

    If I were King at my workplace, I would be firing the coworker who has screwed up majorly twice and impacted production both times. This person is being kept because soon-to-be company reorganization will put them in a different department (for the third time!) and they may be an asset for a special project. Or, if history was any indication, they may screw up a third time and cause the special project to implode. We have another person who could take over the special project and we have another, other person would could fill that other person’s shoes (and be happier for it due to the increased responsibility). Of course, I am not King and I can’t really even suggest this because I am but a lowly low-level worker bee with no say in the matter. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

  164. I edit everything*

    So, it turned out that I remembered almost all of the proofreader’s marks I needed, and I didn’t make too much of a mess of the editing test I needed to do, so even though I printed out two copies, I only needed one. Go me! I don’t expect to hear back before Thanksgiving, but I’m confident I did pretty well. AND I neatly avoided having to deal with “comprise,” which always messes me up, by rewriting the sentence entirely to ensure that the Yukon and British Columbia were referred to as a territory and a province, respectively. Trick question dodged! Or, I fell right into it–not sure.

  165. Master Bean Counter*

    Question for the Feds here.
    If a job is only open for 4 days…does this mean that there’s probably a good internal candidate?
    Or are they expecting miracles?

    1. Not All*

      Or it is a position that gets a TON of applicants and this is a way to keep the numbers down.

      Or, we are basing our timelines around things like prospective shutdowns since the last one really screwed up hiring (certs expired, people took jobs at other agencies that weren’t shutdown while waiting for us, etc)

      Or HR/hiring official/someone is going on leave and this is the timeline that works for them.

      Or, yes, they already know who they are going to hire. You can usually tell from the specificity of the screening questions if that is the case. Doesn’t hurt to apply anyway though (just don’t spend a ton of time customizing) since even if they have someone in mind, that person may not end up taking it for whatever reason.

      1. Not All*

        Years ago, it was common in the agencies I work for to leave job announcements up for 14-21 days. The last few years agencies have figured out that anyone they would be likely to hire is checking USAJobs daily. The final candidate pool ends up being basically identical at the higher level jobs whether the vacancy is up for a week or a month. At the entry-level jobs, you may go from 40 applicants at a week to 300 candidates at 3 weeks, but the quality of those candidates isn’t going to change much. Unless it is a hard to fill position, the open periods are getting shorter and shorter. Usually they try to have the vacancy up over a weekend but it depends on HR’s schedule.

        Bigger issue is that for most jobs it’s almost impossible to hire qualified applicants of the public cert because they are all blocked by vets. Since most hiring officials know they’re going to be hiring off the merit cert anyway, there isn’t a ton of incentive to delay the process with longer openings on the DEU announcement where people are less likely to have their USAJobs application ready to roll. (Obviously, not true of every type of position or agency. Certainly not true of things like seasonal wildland fire fighters where hundreds will be hired off a single cert.)

    3. machinations and palindromes*

      They’re expecting 10,000 applications and want to avoid that. Small time = smaller number of applications to wade through.

  166. Mira*

    I need advice about a situation that had me angry enough to almost resign on the spot. Back in March/April of this year, I was handed a non-performing blog and told to increase monthly traffic to 3 times the current average.
    By October, I had raised it to just over 10 times that. Using only organic means – SEO, hygiene, careful production of content based on search criteria, all that jazz.

    Two days back my boss sat me down and told me that he had lobbied for an award for me, for that whole project and the insane amount of work I’d put into it. But for reasons unknown (though the gist I got was that I’m not considered good enough), my grandboss and the powers that be decided to give the award to MY BOSS instead.

    His contribution to the entire project could be summed up at – 3%, maye 5% at best. I strategised, ran point, dealt with our technical, SEO, and production agencies, executed, troubleshot, liaised, learnt new skills I’d known nothing of before, did pretty much everything myself, except for some grunt work.

    Now, to be clear, he has always maintained that this project is a feather in my cap, and mine alone. He even lobbied for me to get promoted, and I did get the promotion as soon as I became eligible for one in June, midway through the whole thing, before it had even started showing true results.

    But. I am SO upset. I can’t help feeling cheated out of an award that should have rightfully been mine! I had lunch with my previous manager at this company, and he hinted that something might be in the works for me – but I am not certain if his hint was correct or not.

    My question is – do I bring this up to my manager, and how do I let him know that I think I deserve an award for this project – WITHOUT making it seem like it’s his fault, or that he basically got what was mine? Because the blame truly can’t be laid at his door – he’s always gone to bat for me in the past and I believe his version of events.

    For what it’s worth, I am not in the United States, or in Europe, so the same labour laws do not apply.

    1. Mira*

      To add to my question because I sent it in without reading it through – it’s past 2 a.m. where I am – Should I even bring this up to my boss right now, or wait and see for a couple weeks in case that hint pans out?

      But I’m worried about losing impact if I wait too long, and it’s already been a couple days.

    2. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      Your boss and your manager are the same person, right? It sounds like he already knows this is unfair, so I don’t understand what the point of bringing it up to him would be. You say “I think I deserve an award,” and he says “I do too; that’s why I tried to get them to give you one,” and … then what? This sucks but I don’t think there’s anything you can really do about it.

      1. Mira*

        I should add more context – people have got awards here before simply by asking for them or making their unhappiness plain. While I don’t want to go THAT far, I do want to let them know that I am not happy with how this was done.

        I don’t plan on staying here too long into the next year, as for personal reasons I want to move to a different city, so I really want an award for this on my resume. I should also add that while I don’t expect I’ll get the same award he did, I could get one a tier below it or something, hopefully.

    4. Ama*

      I think it is okay to say to your boss (once and keep your tone even and professional), “I know this isn’t your fault, but I am finding it really demoralizing that I did all that work and the award has your name on it.” The problem is, I am guessing he doesn’t have a lot of pull since presumably he was trying to get the award in your name in the first place, so other than maybe making you feel better to get your feelings out there, I’m not sure it will do much good.

      I suppose you could ask for some assurance that if you ever need to use your work on this project as part of your credentials (i.e. for another promotion or a new job) he’ll back you up.

      This really sucks, and I’m sorry the big bosses at your company are so short-sighted.

      1. Mira*

        I don’t know how to frame that request though, without making it sound offensive. And the reason I think I could express my disappointment is because, well, people have gotten awards for things before because they asked or made a case. I was wondering if I could make one for myself – at least to let them know that I’m not okay with my work being credited to my boss like this – but without coming right out and saying it.

      2. Mira*

        Also, I don’t plan on staying here too long into the next year, as for personal reasons I want to move to a different city, so I really want an award for this on my resume. I should also add that while I don’t expect I’ll get the same award he did, I could get one a tier below it or something, hopefully.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You have the promotion to show on your resume. Promotions do reflect a person’s ability and efforts.

          Perhaps you can say something like, “Gee, Boss, while I am really happy for you getting your award, I think my work merits some recognition also.”

          Someone has given you a hint that something might be in the pipeline for you, so you may not want to push too hard until you find out what that something is or even if it materializes.

    5. Anono-me*

      I agree with NSNR, it is best to see what the hint is about, before you rock the boat.

      If this hinted improvement, is not satisfiying; maybe your boss can give you an award for this directly? It wouldn’t have to be an actual trophy or anything, just a fancy printed certificate saying you did a wonderful job on the blog. (Also, please make sure you keep track of the actual numbers donumenting how much you improved the blog.)

    6. CM*

      It seems to me that, if your boss truly didn’t want the award and thought it should be yours, in most cases it would be a very simple thing for him to have just given it to you, either privately or publicly. If there’s a cash prize involved, that’s easy to give someone. If there’s a trophy, that’s easy to give someone. If there’s a recognition ceremony, it’s very easy to bring someone else on stage with you, or to hold your own ceremony acknowledging the second person and transferring the award to them.

      But he’s not doing any of that stuff. And what I suspect is that he is privately pleased they gave the award to him and wants to keep it. That might not have been the outcome he INTENDED but I don’t think he’s sorry it happened. Which is kind of petty, but lots of people do petty things now and then.

      I think there’s an opportunity to ask if you can share the award. How you go about sharing it depends on what it actually involves, and what would constitute a share for you (do you just want him to say in public that the two of you share the credit, or do you want to split a cash prize, etc). I would frame it like, “Hey, so, I’ve been thinking about what you said, and I have to admit, it would make me feel really good/look good on my resume/whatever to get credit for this achievement. Do you think anyone would mind if we agreed to share the award?”

      1. Sequoit*

        I think this is an excellent point–if he wanted to share credit, he’d be doing any of the things CM listed.

        I’m wondering if there’s a way of including the award on your resume. Could you say something like:

        “Increased traffic to low-performing blog 1000% by doing [X, Y and Z]. Project received an internal award in recognition of project success.”

        That way, you’re attributing the award to the project and anyone who knows anything about your work will see [X, Y and Z] as the heavy lifting that contributed to the traffic increase.

        1. valentine*

          The metrics and promotion are great on their own. Mentioning the award could lead to the awkwardness of explaining it went to the boss. And if what you want are promotions and raises (there was a raise with the promotion, yes?), then that’s all the more reason not to focus on awards, lest a future employer equate them.

  167. Llama dancer*

    I need advice on whether or not this is terrible advice.

    I have a Master’s degree in a very niche field that can be hard to break in to. I only worked in this field for a year after graduating, and then for many reasons decided to switch to a new career. I am very happy in my current career and have no interest in going back, but every now and then an alum from my school contacts me asking advice on getting hired in this field. They have told me that the advice they have been getting is “if you can’t find a job, create your own job.” What this means isn’t that you should work freelance or start a business, it means that you should find a job in a similar field to the one you want to work in, and then once you’re hired just turn it into the job you want.

    For example: (this isn’t the actual job in questions, in case it isn’t clear, lol!) imagine you are a certified llama dance instructor and you’re dream is to get a job teaching llamas to tap dance. There are many llama farms all over the country, but most of them do not offer dance lessons to their llamas, and so are not hiring certified llama dance instructors. The farms that do offer this service are mostly in big cities like New York or L.A. However, almost all farms hire llama walkers and these jobs are very easy to get, so the idea is to get a job walking llamas and then just start teaching the llamas to tap dance while you’re out walking them. The rationale behind this is that there are many positive benefits to llamas learning to dance, and once the farms see how amazing it is they will start offering this service and hire you full time as the llama dance instructor.
    I have actually heard of many people trying this, and I think this is bad advice for several reasons:
    -It is up to the farms to decide what services they want to offer, not the job of an entry level employee to take it upon themselves to start offering those services. If the farm has decided they don’t want to teach dance lessons, then they don’t want dance lessons.
    – There ARE many benefits of dance lessons, but some llamas don’t want to dance, they want to walk, and the way this plan is laid it out it would mean the llamas are getting less walking time. Not only is a non-agreed upon service being offered, but another service is being decreased.
    -There are some ethical concerns. Certified lama dance instructors usually work alongside other experts in the field who can help if something goes wrong. For instance, you would also need a vet who specializes in llama dance injuries, but most farms don’t have that. Their vets only specialize in walking injuries, since that is what they offer, so if a llama is injured during one of these lessons, what happens?
    -Llama dance instructor jobs require a master’s degree, many hours of internships, a specific certification, and they pay a decent salary. Llama walker jobs require a high school diploma and pay minimum wage. I have heard of people who try this “create your own job” plan who are given full permission to teach dance as much as they want, but are never given a title change, or salary boost. I worry that this a: makes it harder for these people to find jobs in the field in the future because they are submitting resumes with a job title and salary that are completely different from what they are applying for, and b: that this maybe encourages businesses to think that don’t have to pay market rate for a llama dance instructor since so many are willing to offer their services for minimum wage, and that this supports an idea that this is an entry level job, since so many people in entry level jobs are the ones providing this service. I have heard many people complain that people think their job doesn’t require any special training and that anyone can do it, and I don’t think this is helping that belief.

    Am I way off base here? What can I do to help people who talk to me after being given this advice? A lot of people are really discouraged by how hard it is to find work, and I don’t want to make it harder, but this just seems like a bad idea to me. Or am I wrong and could this work? And if so, is there advice I could give to help them be successful in this plan?

    1. Daisy-dog*

      I want to say that I’m in love with the thoroughness of your metaphor.

      I do have to agree that trying to sneak in your services while in a low-paying role is not a great way to “create” a job. It would be one thing if llama dance instruction was something that you would forget if you never got to practice it, but even then it shouldn’t be done this way.

      I know these students are discouraged, but it might be the best to just tell them the truth of your story. You didn’t like the “create” your job option and ended up finding a different career that you enjoy. I’m surprised that you’re even contacted as a reference.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is some gumption shht and therefore bad advice.

      I can see it happening for someone way back in the day when someone responded with “I like your moxie, kid!” and then everyone was set on a wild goose chase to replicate it.

      There’s too little chances to set out to make this happen and find the end of that rainbow. Its’ up there with “Don’t worry about working hard, you’ll win the lottery instead!”

      1. just a random teacher*

        Yeah, there are some very narrow cases where this might conceivably work, but the more different the “thing you’re supposed to be doing” and “the thing you’d rather be doing” are in pay, needed infrastructure, and training or certifications, the less likely it is to work (and the more likely your best case scenario is to get to do the thing for a small part of your job, but without the pay or title related to it).

        I really wanted to be a teacher of (specialty subject that is not required for graduation in my state, but is very employable), but I instead focused on becoming a teacher of (thing that students are required to take many classes in to graduate). I have definitely played up my ability to teach (elective with good job prospects) as an extra skill I bring to the table, and at almost every job I’ve had someone sooner or later finds me a period or two to teach classes in (elective) as part of my schedule because there’s lot of student demand for it, so it kind of worked in my case but I certainly didn’t gumption my way into convincing a school to start offering a full-on program in (elective) and have me running it full time. (It helps that all teachers are paid the same and have the same title regardless of subject taught, so it’s a very lateral move to teach a class or two in a different subject as long as you’re qualified to do so. It’s just a case of the school needing to have more than enough periods of my main subject offered, and if so deciding who among the teachers of that subject should also cover an elective or two to fill out their schedules.)

    3. The New Wanderer*

      It’s terrible advice. It basically sounds like something touted by a niche field with very limited actual opportunities and yet markets themselves as in-demand, so the only way they can shore up their successful-placement numbers is to advise grads to shoe-horn themselves into situations like this.

      First, the difference between those two positions is too wide. it’s like advising someone to start any entry level job and “magic” it into a mid-level position by generating completely different work than what’s agreed on in the job descriptions. And this assumes that somehow the company would be so impressed that they’ll award a brand new title that never existed for them, and salary bump to match. I don’t think any company is going to say “we hired you as a llama walker, a role we needed, and instead you taught them to tap dance, something we absolutely didn’t need, so here’s a raise and new title!”

      Second, it sounds like there’s not even the appropriate support or infrastructure for such a role to be successful. Even if the company was like “Hey knock yourself out” about pushing new work, the second something goes wrong it’ll be much harder to mitigate without the right resources. That doesn’t speak well to the professionalism of llama dance instructors who are willing to take that risk.

    4. Anonnymous*

      (Awesome metaphor!) I accidentally did something similar to this twice, and both times I really regretted it. I’m good with data, and with making computer systems work when they don’t want to, and I enjoy it. In both jobs there was room for my job role to creep into those areas, and so I fixed and analysed whenever necessary. I was valued, and people deliberately sought me out to take advantage of these extra skills.

      I did not get a penny more, and I did not get an extra minute in the day to do my paid job and these extra tasks. If I missed deadlines in any of it I couldn’t bring up that I was too busy, because then I wasn’t a team player. When I wanted to move to IT to get paid for the work I was doing (doubling my salary) and going from two roles to one, I was told that I was too valuable and versatile to lose (they did offer the job and salary when I resigned, and I declined). When I wanted development, I was told I’d done so well developing myself I didn’t need any more. And like you said – I couldn’t really include it on my CV because my job didn’t involve those tasks.

      I think that would be a common experience for most people doing it deliberately. Companies still need the original job done, and if they can get you to do extra that they want or need for free they’ll not pay you for it – and if they don’t want you to do it then they won’t be happy that you aren’t conforming to their processes. You don’t win.

    5. Antilles*

      What this means isn’t that you should work freelance or start a business, it means that you should find a job in a similar field to the one you want to work in, and then once you’re hired just turn it into the job you want.
      I would bet that the people giving that advice have never actually hired anyone. Because the first thing that comes to my mind as a hiring manager is “no, I’d actually kind of like someone to do the job I’m hiring for“. Why am I hiring an administrative assistant? Because…wait for it…I need an administrative assistant! Trying to ‘create’ your own role in accounting isn’t feasible because I do really need someone to handle clerical work, not an accountant.
      And then it probably ends with a very disappointed employee when they realize that no, your plan to “create your job” isn’t remotely feasible, at least not any time soon.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      “What this means isn’t that you should work freelance or start a business, it means that you should find a job in a similar field to the one you want to work in, and then once you’re hired just turn it into the job you want.”

      A chain is as strong as it’s weakest link. And here is the weakest link in this chain. It’s pretty darn weak.

      You can tell them that this advice is not for the faint of heart and it’s not anything you have ever seen work out well for someone. Because of these two factors you believe that in good conscience you cannot to recommend this method to anyone. Think of it as a person wants a job creating fine pottery. So the advice is to get a job as a dishwasher and convince the restaurant owner that she needs to make her own dishes for her restaurant.
      She’s in the restaurant biz, clearly because she is not interested in any other biz at the moment. A newbie employee is going to come off at best as out-of-touch or off-base.

      Tell them to read AAM to help get real and actionable advice on building their career.

      My most recent example of someone getting a job created for them goes like this. My friend was working with Bob on a project. Bob quietly watched my friend, he watched my friend’s work ethic, he watched how my friend thought through problems. He watched my friend’s resourcefulness.
      Months later a problem arose. Bob informed a board that my friend would just be the person to solve this problem. Bob said, “I have worked with this person and I see what he is capable of. We need him.” The board hired my friend on Bob’s say so and on my friend’s willingness to flex on key points of the job itself.

      Here’s the interesting part: My friend has never done the new work before. He has done enough of the tangent work to show that he is capable of mastering this new work. Another huge point is my friend’s integrity/honesty, which is important because he will be working mostly unsupervised. My friend did not target this area of work and I am not sure if he would have chosen it on his own. Just as the board created a position for my friend, my friend also redefined what work his is willing to take on. My friend worked in his arena for decades before making this jump.

    7. Delta Delta*

      As an aside, could “vet who specializes in llama dance injuries” be more of a niche field than “llama dance instructor?” I think probably yes.

  168. Liz Lemon*

    Whaaaaaat.

    I just had a second interview with a hiring manager for job. It’s a VP job. I’ve worked as a VP for the past 3 years and as a director for 5 years before that.

    She ended the call by saying she thought I was great but wanted someone more seasoned for the role, but would I be a project manager? GHOISDFIODGHHGHhsdfoi. I was pretty taken aback.

    The way she said it… I don’t know… it almost as if she was like, “I want someone who looks and sounds older.” It wasn’t even like, “You don’t have experience in xyz.”

    Guess I’ll cross that one off the list.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Kinda sounds like she was saying “We want someone with VP-level experience and credibility, but are only filling a project manager role (at the PM salary) at the moment.” Either way, that’s a bullet dodged.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I ran into this a few years ago when looking to leave my 10+ year job. Ten years of very detailed experience and proof that I’m made of.

      I was even told at one point nobody would take me seriously because I was “too young” and “what like 40 maybe?” [I was 31 but sure, like 40 works too, lmfao] Same size of business, similar industry, yadda yadda. But yeah, just simply not !~*~*old enough~**

      So yeah, cross them off your list and laugh at the audacity, it’s the only option at that rate. Some people are just…special.

    3. Lady Kelvin*

      “I’m not interested in taking a step down from my current level, thanks.”

      Make sure she knows that you are currently a VP and are only interested in lateral moves. (I’m rolling my eyes at her audacity.)

  169. AcademiaAdverse*

    I work in an academic department as the only salaried staff member serving the entire department. I’ve been in the position for a year and a half, and it has turned out to be far from what was advertised (highly technical turned catch-all, with the catch-all constituting 90% of my time and being things that are inappropriate to ask of someone in my position). I’ve tried to stick it out and work within to sort of “create” my job and put clear boundaries around tasks that are unacceptable, so to speak. I’ve spoken to my supervisor and HR about the discrepancies and how I feel I could better benefit the department by taking on more tasks that are appropriate with good reception but no action (this was six months ago). I’ve consistently gone above and beyond, taking on tasks and projects that benefit the department without being asked. However, I’m burnt out, stalling, and think it’s time to jump ship.

    My questions are two-fold:

    1 – How do I include my “achievements” on my resume when they clearly aren’t within the scope of my position (or related to any of my skills/training/expertise)? Is this going to be a problem? How do I frame this?

    2 – Who can I use as references? I’m so low on the totem pole with seemingly no support (cue supervisor who forgets I exist) that I don’t even know who to ask. Are other semi-related staff members appropriate? People from other departments? I would rather not use faculty as references because of the awful power dynamic.

    What would you do?

    1. Ama*

      So I’ve been in a position similar to yours — honestly as far as your achievements not being within the scope of your position, you are fine, if you are staying in academia people are pretty used to admin staff having to take on a lot of roles (particularly if they are the only one in the department) and if you aren’t, people won’t really know what is and isn’t standard.

      Also just a reminder — if the additional things you took on aren’t things you want to do in your next job, you can minimize them on your resume! For example in my last academic admin job I wound up doing a lot of fundraising work, which I hated, so I just didn’t mention that on my resume (I wasn’t applying to fundraising jobs, anyway), I also seriously downplayed the amount of general admin work I did (I was trying to move out of that role), other than mentioning that I helped write and enforce policies as the department I worked for tripled in size over three years (which was relevant to the job I have now where I write and enforce policies for grantees at a research funder).

      As far as references, is there any employee senior to you who can speak knowledgably about your work? My second-to-last academic administration job, one of my bosses got fired and the one after that inexplicably hated me and had no idea what I actually did. So the references I used from that job was the second-in-command in the department, as well as a former coworker (who left before I did) who were both senior to me but not technically my boss, but could actually speak to what I did every day. I think you could consider people in other departments as long as they know enough about what you do and have really seen your work. If you get to the references stage, mention that, while you are willing to provide your direct supervisor as a reference if necessary, these senior colleagues worked more closely with you on a day to day basis and can speak more thoroughly about your work.

      1. AcademiaAdverse*

        Ahhhh! Thank you! There is hope!

        I’m mostly miffed that they hired me on as a technical specialist but I’ve mainly been asked to do things that are clearly within the purview of hourly facilities staff (ex: mowing, and moving heavy things…?) and had to fight to do things that are clearly listed in my PD. I’m really hoping to get out of academia all together because this environment is just teeming with unprofessional narcissists and no consequences for poor behavior. I’ll definitely have to look at how I’m framing the extra tasks I’ve taken on in this position in a better light!

        I think there’s at least one staff member who is *slightly* more senior that could be a reference, and possibly a faculty member. I worry about the faculty member keeping it quiet, though.

        1. Ama*

          ugh yeah, I’ve been there — trust me you can get out and it will get better!

          If you can maybe wait until you’ve had an interview that you think went well to ask the faculty member so they don’t have to keep it quiet for very long. (I know that’s not usually what you’d want to do, but if confidentiality is an issue it is worth the risk.)

  170. Middle School Teacher*

    Hopefully this isn’t too political and feel free to delete. Solidarity to my fellow public employees in Alberta, and May your pension never go under-funded. It’s going to be a long four years for us.

  172. Rachael*

    I work for a large organisation and have just been promoted due to someone leaving without notice. I’m now a very senior manager and decided to take my EA with me. I’m finding that she is struggling with the workload as she still has to work for another senior manager (nothing I can do about that), she is trying so hard and there are no other EA’s that work as hard as her or that I would want to work for me. How can I help her transit into this new role that’s been thrown at her simply because she is so good at her job? She spoke to me today and said that she is losing her confidence (I noticed this week she’d made a couple of minor mistakes which she’s never done before). I don’t want her to find another job (she’d be snapped up by any employer) but I’m so busy myself I haven’t got time to give her much support. Any ideas would be welcome

    1. fposte*

      I think you need to be honest with yourself about whether this is a transition-into-new-role situation or a there’s-an-unreasonable-amount-on-this-person’s-plate situation, because from here it sounds like the second. Can you hire another support staffer to take some stuff off of her plate?

    2. Ama*

      First, good for you for noticing and trying to step in before she gets to her breaking point.

      My advice (as someone who has had overwhelming workloads before, one time where a manager stepped in and asked “what can we do to get some things off your plate?” and one time where the manager listened sympathetically and then wasn’t really able to effect much change) — sit down with her and have an honest conversation about where the real pain points are in her workload. Is it trying to balance the two of you? Is it some change in your responsibilities that has increased the volume of hers? Is there something she’s prioritizing that would make sense to put on the back burner for a little while as she gets settled in? Or is it just that she needs to change how she organizes her workflow and she hasn’t quite found the right system to keep track of everything?

      Obviously not everything is fixable (if the answer you come to is “this is too much for one person” but you can’t get any money to hire extra staff, for example – this is basically what happened in the position where the manager couldn’t do much, and I did end up leaving because of it) but sometimes you can find things like she’s getting a lot more email than she used to and stuff is getting missed because she loses things in her inbox, and then try to figure out strategies for dealing with that.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can only stretch even a unicorn so thin. She has a breaking point and you’re starting to witness it.

      I say this as someone who held up entire companies on my back over the years and did more than one job at once. Your support is critical but in the end, it may not be enough to eliminate her stress and the fact she’s found her capacity.

      You may be at that time where you need to pitch having a dedicated EA for each executive. Yes, it’s expensive. But mistakes are expensive too. You’ll run into this problem again and again and again with the extra pressure put on that position.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Adding, you can tell TPTB if they do not do something very soon, then you foresee that they will be hiring to replace the current EA because she will probably resign. This problem will get larger, not smaller.

  173. limbonic*

    Hey it’s me, the new hiree who’s been waiting and waiting and WAITING to get my offer letter (because, you know, I have to give adequate notice on my current job)… I finally got my recruiter on the phone to ask when I might expect it, because I hadn’t gotten it yet (I had been under the impression it was going to be sent within minutes of my previous phone call with him where I was extended the verbal offer, or at least, 24 hours maybe?) This, after leaving messages he never returned.

    He was just, “Oh, you didn’t get it? Uh… hm… I’ll look into that and get that to you…” (total undertone of “Oh crap, I forgot to send it”) Good thing I called huh???

    This is the same HR recruiter who told me that I needed to submit my references on an online form, and then left me waiting for A WEEK until he bothered sending it along. The same guy who only would call me back at 5 pm and then never respond to messages as I tried to reach him and do my best to cooperate with the whole long HR process. (I also want to add, that my new supervisor has been in steady touch with me and he has expressed annoyance at the HR office’s slowness and lack of communication, so it’s not just me.)

    I also work for an agency which has different locations, and this job is actually with the same agency but at a different location. You have to deal with the HR office for each location. (People in a certain state in a certain industry might recognize this situation) I had made very clear during my entire application and interview process that I worked for the same agency already (which affects continuity of benefits). When I was offered the job, HR Dude seemed to think I was from outside the agency, so I had to point it out to HR Dude *again* and then he said, “Oh yeah, let me look into your benefits…” Yeah, like I was going to trust that he was going to do anything in a timely manner!

    So, I took matters into my own hands and started phoning people in HR who might actually help me (once I had accepted the position), and I’m very glad I did, because they were super helpful and got the ball rolling (apparently my situation really is unusual and they don’t see many agency transfers at this location). I might have lost benefits otherwise. I was very polite each and every time I called, not being demanding, but just saying, “I’m a new hire, my intake date is such-and-such a date, there’s something about the process I don’t understand, can you clear up my confusion” type requests.

    The whole long process has been very stressful, and I know these hiring processes are long and stressful even when the HR staff you’re dealing with are professional. But this guy just seems to be out to lunch, and I hope I don’t have to deal with him any more.

  174. The New Wanderer*

    Just a vent. I’m reviewing a colleague’s paper recapping a big meeting we had a few months ago. The paper includes a section where it was apparently concluded that teapot making is best left to robots and tea-brewing to humans, for specific reasons. Except we didn’t conclude that at all, and in fact that’s nearly the opposite of the position I hold, that I made pretty clear in that meeting and in conversations with this colleague since. It’s definitely not just me or my opinion, either. The reasons cited in the paper are based on an old approach to what robots and humans are good at (manufacturing vs taste, for example). There is a paradigm shift happening in industry away from that way of thinking, that we’ve discussed at length. So I’m just disappointed to see the same old arguments rehashed and I don’t know where to start with providing feedback.

  175. Filosofickle*

    A post I saw on LinkedIn that cracked me up:

    Just saw “Manger” in a LinkedIn title and decided to do a quick search, for fun and procrastination. There are 214,680 people whose title is misspelled as “Manger.” There are 58,649 who use the incorrect spelling “Principle” instead of Principal. And there are 597 who have “Pubic” instead of Public in their title.”

    Worse than making an error, they have apparently zero friendly colleagues to give them a heads up? Please tell me somewhere in there is a Manger of Pubic Relations.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        There has to be an AAM corollary to Rule 34. If it exists, there’s a Fergus for it.

    3. Fikly*

      I have to write the phrase “publically available” repeatedly for one task in my job. The resulting document goes out to the public. My nightmare is “pubically available.”

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        There should really be a feature to easily remove words from spell check. I would like to remove both “pubic” (and it’s derivatives) and “tot” (so every “tot he” rather than “to the” gets flagged) from mine. I would be happy to clear the flags on the rare occasions I need to talk about either of those things, but I really can’t imagine what those would be so I think it would solve many more problems than it would create.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          ..of course I ‘ll make a grammar/word use error in a post involving word use/spelling errors. *sigh*

          1. Close Bracket*

            lol, never edit your own work.

            So, as an editor, I have a series of “ctrl-F” checks that I do for standard errors like spaces before periods, missing spaces after periods, etc. Doing a find at the end helps me find any of these things that I might have missed during the first edit of the document. If you make “tot he” errors a lot, make it a ctrl-F check!

  176. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

    TMI update —

    Thanks to those who left supportive comments on my post about getting the stray IUD bits removed, procedure is next week. They do want to report a medical device failure. I support this from a public health standpoint, but wishing they wouldn’t given that I don’t want the government getting any info about my reproductive choices, especially the current administration. I used to work with researchers and am skeptical about how “de-identified” the data really is…

    1. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

      oops, should have waited till tomorrow, ok if this needs to be deleted, or I can make it about work by saying “it’s been awkward asking for a day off Thanksgiving week without disclosing what I want it for and not wanting to use sick time…”

      1. Popcorn and Moscato*

        Work with your doctor and HR. Maybe get a doctor’s note to give to HR/your boss?

        In regard to reporting it, it is important to help other patients by reporting events like what you described previously. I’m unfamiliar with the protocol for faulty medical device reporting and wouldn’t want to speculate. Someone else on here that works in another area in the health field would be a better person to talk about that with.

  177. Might Need to Work a Job I Dislike*

    Is it possible to have a good career in a city government job, even though you don’t agree with the city’s politics or might have a difficult time clicking with some coworkers?

    Once I heard of my city (SF, CA) government jobs, I don’t really like it because I think the city is corrupted, I am not a liberal, I don’t like the beauracracy in the system, I heard there may be office politics, the stuff might be hard or too easy and skills learned might not be too transferrable, it might be hard to leave because there’s no other place that can pay better than the city, etc. I have been having these thoughts in my head. But city government jobs have better health and retirement benefits. The areas I am going to work on are mostly clerical or finance related. I wonder if this is the job I should take, a job I should just suck up because of the higher pay and benefits. I live in a expensive city and I might need help paying my family’s bills and mortgage.

    If I don’t get a government job, I might need to get a similar job in a private sector that might have the same type of obstacles presented. My mom sometimes puts pressure on me into aiming for a better paying and more prestigious job. I live with my parents, and I cannot freely moved out because of my culture.

    What else do I need to consider? Any thoughts on my issue?

    1. Kendra*

      Yes, in many places, you can have a good career in city government even if your political opinions are in the minority, particularly in finance or other slightly less public-facing departments. This is especially true in places that have a city/town manager, as opposed to being directly run by a mayor (I’m not sure which applies to SF, so you’d have to research that). A manager is a hired employee, not an elected one, so they can act as a kind of buffer between the political side and the administrative side; in some places, the elected officials are specifically forbidden to give instructions to any city employee except through the manager, for that exact reason.

      It also pays to look at your state campaign laws. Here in Arizona, government employees (state, county, city, whatever) aren’t allowed to do or say anything that could be considered part of a partisan political campaign while on the clock. You can encourage people to vote, but you can’t tell them what to vote for, basically. So, I have a general idea what my coworkers’ political opinions are, but it’s actually less of an issue here than almost anywhere else I’ve worked.

    2. Filosofickle*

      I think it would be very hard to set aside strong feelings about corruption, bureaucracy, and the prevailing politics to work in city government. (I live in the area, so I have a sense of this exact situation.) Essentially, you’re asking if you can tolerate working in a system you believe is actively harmful or wrong because it’s a “good” job.

      Are you someone who can truly separate work from life? Do you derive meaning or purpose from work? If you could put your head down without feeling like you’re giving up a bit of your soul, maybe! Some people can overlook a lot for a paycheck. They work to live. However, many people would be worn down by the day-to-day frustrations. As you note, the private sector may not be better, but at least it can be. I don’t think the liberal, bureaucratic nature of SF is changing anytime soon. (I happen to be a flaming liberal, but no doubt it is a very frustrating city.)

      Only you can answer this. Getting real with yourself and knowing your limits would go a long way here.

      1. Anon Here*

        FWIW, I am more on the liberal side of things and, having lived in the area, I sympathize with your thoughts about the city. I get what you’re talking about.

        I think it would really depend on the job. Why not apply and then ask questions to get a better sense of things during the interview? Or talk to city employees and ask them about it? Do more research and don’t rule it out yet, but also keep looking into other options.

      2. Might Need to Work a Job I Dislike*

        I wish I have the time and opportunity to just look at what is good for me. With family expenses looming and mom seemly a little desperate, it gets kind of hard. I also worried about not making enough money in the current job as the City’s expenses continue to grow year by year.

        1. Filosofickle*

          Well, taking a job doesn’t have to be a life sentence! You can try it and see. It is incredibly expensive here and we have to make choices about how best to live with it. I moved to the near east bay years ago but that’s blown up now too.

          Do city jobs really pay that well? That surprises me! Benefits, sure. Tho with all the news I see about underfunded pensions etc the long-term benefits look less certain in CA.

        2. Filosofickle*

          One more thing!

          I tend towards the “money isn’t everything” POV because for me it’s tolerable not to love my job, but I can’t live with hating it. However, money is kind of everything when you’re worried about how to live and pay your bills. SF especially is a tough town. You can’t just “live on a little less” here.

          If I were in your shoes I’d seriously chase tech money instead. Less security, but high dollars. Really high dollars. Even non-technical roles with a few years of experience comfortably crack six figures. I do my best to work for the greater good, but I take some tech clients because they have the money.

      1. Might Need to Work a Job I Dislike*

        My city is also a county. State level positions also hard to get into and might be more rarer.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m guessing this is a first/early career job for you? Because most of what you’re saying is possible with a government job is also possible with a private sector job. You may not agree with the company’s actions. You may not click with your coworkers. There’s still corruption, bureaucracy, politics, etc in companies. How things present will certainly vary.

      Don’t take a job where you would be miserable. Money isn’t everything. and don’t allow your mother to push you into a career/job that you don’t want just to make her “proud” or happy. It’s your life, not hers, and I don’t care what culture you’re dealing with, that doesn’t change that you’re the one who has to live with the decision.

    5. Fikly*

      I think it’s going to depend on the individual agency/department/org you get a job in, because things like politics, bureaucracy, corruption, etc, are all going to vary heavily.

      For what it’s worth, my mom works in a state government job, providing services to a particular population of disabled people. The way she is most affected by politics is that ultimately, the governor and the majority party in the legislature are in charge of the budget, and the higher ups in her agency are political appointees, and do not necessarily have the appropriate skills/background to be useful or harmless.

    6. LQ*

      If you take a job and assume that everyone in government is corrupt and every job is bloat then what you are saying to your coworkers is “I am corrupt and my position isn’t necessary, I also think you are corrupt and you are worthless at your job.” I’ve worked with several of these dudes. They didn’t seem to understand that by condemning all government workers you are also saying that you are that bad, but at least some of the rest of us are trying to do a good job and trying to care.

      Now several of these dudes had “careers” they didn’t advance into high leadership positions, but into more senior individual contributor roles because of the bloat that is if you’ve been around long enough and are willing to jump from department to department to hide your poor reputation for working with others that you’ll get a promotion here and there. I don’t know anyone in a senior leadership position who believes that everyone is corrupt. There are lots of folks in senior leadership roles trying to strip bureaucracy but they have a sense of the need for structure and transparency and the balance swings around that point.

      There is office politics, but not more than other offices in my experience, and other than when you get a new boss not a ton of talk about politics politics. Office politics is just the experience of relationship building within a job (and all the ugly bs that comes with humans). That’s everywhere.

      I don’t think that government or bust makes sense though based on what you said. It’s not impossibly better benefits and pay than other jobs and if you are ethically opposed to the work then you can do something else. There are plenty of prestige jobs at other places (and likely fancier titles, government titles are boring!)

      I don’t know why you think government is the only place for you. Seriously, there are lots of other jobs in CA. (I’d be really surprised if the government jobs were the best paying around, and it’s easier to negotiate for other things like more leave, fancier title, or more pay at a private company.)

      Health insurance better, yes? Mostly is better from what I’ve seen, but again, you just need to find the right private company and you can find as good.
      Retirement being better I think is mostly a holdover. I don’t know about CA or SF but it’s unlikely that they still have fixed pension or rule of 90 or any of the other things like that that used to be true in some places (similar to other places with unions). Most of that died in the 80s or 90s. People still think it and say it more than it is actually true.

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        I agree LQ. the typical way of government jobs is– the pay is less, you may get a pension however–that’s the trade off. And the pension bit is changing. Private sector has more perks, money, etc. Raises are rare, health insurance is average to good, and the public scrutiny in incredible. Why take a government job when you don’t want it?

  178. Argye*

    So I just got an invite to an in-person interview after a Skype interview. Great, right? Well, maybe.

    I’m about 1500 miles from the location, and there was nothing in the invitation about reimbursing me for flights/hotels. Realistically, this is a 3-day commitment for me, what with flying there, interviewing, and flying home, all during an incredibly busy time of the semester. They have suggested Dec 5, which *might* be doable, if I’m willing to put some serious money into flights.

    The scheduling is being done by a grad student, who I had to remind about the existence of time zones for the Skype interview. I gather the other candidates are local. They did mention that the interview should take about 4 hours, which is largely irrelevant if I’m flying in for the day.

    I need to craft an email asking about flights/hotels and how much flexibility they have with timing. Though this has me wondering how feasible this is, or if they’re just going to hire someone local no matter what hoops I jump through.

    Note that this is a faculty/administration position, and would start next August.

    Suggestions on how to phrase questions about flight/hotel and if this is really worth my time to interview?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      What about something like,

      “Thank you, I am looking forward to meeting [you/the team/the Spice Girls] in person to continue our discussion. In terms of travel expenses, how does [Company] handle that? Should I book my flight and hotel through your office or should I submit a reimbursement form? If the latter, could you please send me a copy of the form?

      Thank you again!”

      Just assume they will be paying for the travel expenses, then see what they say. Note, they may not pay for your travel, since they have local candidates.

  179. The future's so bright I need to wear shades*

    After listening to a coworker gripe about their day I ended up saying something stupid and thoughtless about our boss. It wasn’t the worst thing I could have said, but it’s out there now, and I feel terrible about it. I got swept up in the negativity of the moment and became a person I didn’t like. Just a friendly message to be mindful of what you say and how you present yourself at work. Cheers to the end of one week and trying to be better in the next!

  180. Alice B.*

    One of the questions earlier this week has me thinking about counter offers. I know that when I leave my current company I wouldn’t accept a counter offer from them. Knowing that, would it damage a professional relationship to decline to consider one? Or is it better to go through the motions of listening to their proposal and turning it down? In spite of the possibility that their offer is influenced by panic over losing someone suddenly, can it be a reliable indicator that someone has been underpayed?

    1. WellRed*

      Why waste their time and yours. There’s more to this then pay. Just graciously thank them but “ you’re excited for this new opportunity and are so grateful…” blah blah.

    2. CM*

      For the first question, I think there can be a polite way to say, “I appreciate the effort, but I’m really excited about this new opportunity and I don’t think there’s any way I’d change my mind.”

      The second question is interesting. If they’re suddenly offering you a WAY better deal because they think you’ll leave, it definitely seems to indicate that they weren’t giving you their best offer while you were there, or that they think you’re worth more than what they offered you. Opinions vary about this, but I think you should always be offering people a deal that’s fair and corresponds with how much value they bring — I think it’s wrong to purposely lowball someone.

      So, if they’re offering you a modest raise to stay, it’s probably just them trying to keep you — but if it’s suddenly a lot more, yeah, I think it could be a sign that they’re not dealing with you fairly.

    3. Bilateralrope*

      It might depend on how you decline.

      When I find a better job and resign from my current one, I wont be giving notice until after I’ve signed my new employment contract. Making it too late to accept a counter offer. That shouldn’t burn any bridge worth keeping.

      But if you start talking about why you’ll never work for this company again, that could be a problem.

      Also consider the possibility that a high counter offer that never gets put in writing might be intended to keep you for long enough to get your other offer withdrawn If the company is scummy enough.

  181. Beachlover*

    How can I set boundaries on other jobseekers on Facebook constantly bombarding me with messages about finding job leads at my former company or mistaking me constantly for a recruiter, HR manager or hiring manager
    I am a member of a job search group along with numerous other job seekers where we assist each other in locating job leads for companies within our small town. While in college I interned at a medium sized marine park at the center of town. Recently within the last few months the company had a few job openings available on their website after two failed attempts at having a local job fair. I would often assist other job seekers in recommending the positions at that company as well as a few other local ones. But every time I help someone or send it to them as a private message other persons would follow the person’s post and want in on it too and because of that I would have 10-20 people blowing up my name in the notifications asking me how to apply for the marine park positions or other companies or bombard my inbox with the same messages instead of reading the ads on the page for themselves
    or sending a private message to the other persons I replied to in order to find out. Because of this habit I almost left the group because I can barely enjoy the use of the group and Facebook anymore. It seems as if the jobseekers enjoys being spoonfed. Any advice

    1. WellRed*

      Is there a moderator to reiterate ( or set) some basic rules? Or maybe you need to leave this internship off? I can’t imagine you’re telling anyone anything super helpful at this point.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The easiest way is to just remove all of the work/professional info from your profile. Also, take a look at your settings, there’s a good chance that you need to lock things down better.

  182. BeepBoopAndAllThat*

    I’m a surgery resident doing a rotation at another hospital with another resident, Sarah, who seemed to be struggling. I sort of took over the service and gave her time off to do whatever, for which she seemed ridiculously grateful. Eventually we were sitting our call room. She was sitting on the bed, I was sitting at the desk doing work and she broke down in front of me about some serious personal stuff – three weeks after we had met. I asked if she was okay with being touched and she said she was. (In the past she has actually taken me by the shoulders and directed me towards something when I was tired. Endearing, not awkward.)

    I sat down next to her to give her a comforting side hug and she wrapped around me and held on for dear life. I’m female. I’m gay. She’s straight and married. I am not attracted to her but hell, all I wanted to do right then was pick her up and like…protect her forever. Like a small animal. I ended up cuddling with her for a few minutes until she settled down and we could go back to work.

    Anyway, the dynamic has been confusing since then. Inter-resident relationships are always fraught but the physical boundary was pushed waaaaayyy over the normal. Our interactions are about the same, except now we hug goodbye and it’s not the polite American kind. I am guessing that I should let the matter drop since there’s a great chance after next week we won’t ever see each other again. (And I am damn sure she is not flirting with me.)

    Long way of asking: do I ask if she was okay with our physical interaction? Do I apologize for maybe stepping over the line by holding her? Christ, I never want to violate boundraies and I don’t want to leave with a reputation as being physically inappropriate following me…

    1. Princesa Zelda*

      Here’s my take as a bi female-type person: She sounds like in the moment, she really, really, REALLY needed a hug and definitely initiated the snuggling all by herself. I’d probably come across as weird to apologize for violating her boundaries when her boundaries weren’t actually violated; she was a consenting party to the cuddle. I’m also guessing that she’s the one hugging you goodbye? If she’s hugging you, she’s cool with hugging. As long as you’re also cool with hugging, feel free to hug away until one of you changes your mind. I can virtually guarantee you that she’s either forgotten you’re gay, never realized it in the first place, or doesn’t really care.

      1. valentine*

        Your being gay doesn’t mean you’re wrong to accept physical affection. What I see here is her crossing boundaries and escalating rapidly. She saw the three weeks and raised you gushing. She saw your hug and raised you cuddling. And regular hugging.

        And I am damn sure she is not flirting with me.
        I wouldn’t be so sure. Did the personal problems sound like a breakup? If this were a movie, would it be a romance between your characters?

        1. BeepBoopAndAllThat*

          > Did the personal problems sound like a breakup?

          No. They are absolutely horrifying, career-ending residency problems. Her old residency program was notoriously toxic and she ended up leaving with a cloud over her head. Now she’s trying to get a new program and it’s not going well. She’s scared of losing everything and it’s a reasonable fear.

    2. Alianora*

      I agree. It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong, but apologizing would probably make it weird.

      Although if you are finding that the hugs are making YOU uncomfortable, it’s ok if you want to stop.

  183. Majestic Space Whale*

    So my new job has been a … mixed ride so far. At first, like two weeks in I agreed to be put on a special crisis team for a completely different department for a couple weeks, which was VERY interesting (also insane, because nothing was prepared, we trained for it on the fly and it was a massive chaos). Well, we helped out and I got a special bonus awarded as a thank you for the exceptional flexibility. Good, yes?
    Yes. Well, but this week I had my first performance evaluation after the first two weeks of independent work after completing all my initial trainings and it was Not. Good. I am extremely slow and now I’m scared I’ll get fired before my probationary period is over. I have been working super-hard on bringing myself up to speed since then, but yeah, still not great.
    Made worse by the fact that due to a rather unusual setup (I am supposed to transition to a different, more specialized team after three months) I am currently pretty much ignored by both of those teams as “well she doesn’t really belong to us” and left out of all teambuilding activities (including team breakfasts) and such. Also not great.
    It’s not exactly the best for my anxiety and general “not feeling like a complete failure” thing. So I guess I wonder if anyone has any tips how to deal with this in the meantime?

    1. WellRed*

      First, start looking for a new job. It sucks but better to feel like you have some control over your destiny while waiting for the axe to fall. Second, try not to internalize this and feel like a failure. See this place for the dumpster fire that it is m. It sounds chaotic and like they hired you with no clear ideas why. Add in the way they treat you and, well, it’s them, not you. Really!

    2. LQ*

      Assuming the transition is pretty clearly laid out, I’d go talk to the person who manages the team you’re going to be moving to and ask what they need you to be prepared with/by your time on this team at the start. Focus on those things.

      Then loop back to your current boss and ask what they are expecting from you for the next few weeks (because it’s seriously just a few more weeks, many of those weeks have holidays in them).

      Finally (and if you don’t feel like you can get a lot out of either of those two conversations) try the person who lead the crisis team. Ask for some feedback and insight.

      If you got thrown into a crisis team, prepared on the fly and it was successful enough to get a special bonus…I don’t know for sure, but I’m going to bet there’s a little imposter syndrome happening here, that is actual success. That’s what that looks like. Find someone kind to talk to who understands your work.

  184. Delta Delta*

    Funny thing that happened this week. I was in a court hearing involving a social worker. She’s someone who I like but don’t know terribly well. On a break we were making chitchat and I noticed her blouse looked like it had a hood. I said, “oh, does that have a hood?” (I was wearing a top with a hood so this made sense to me) She sort of came over toward me and started to embrace me. I was confused. She said, “oh, I thought you said, ‘can I have a hug?'” So, we hugged it out and she showed me the hood on her blouse.

  185. Amethyst*

    I listened to y’all & removed the couple lines of business speak you guys hated & changed it to reflect me & what the description actually meant. I also did a little googling & updated my resume to reflect the two software systems I remember working with, but I don’t remember each software I used for one job (aside from Kronos). So this is a bit of a long shot: Stop & Shop billers, what programs did we use to pull the ledgers & summary sheets? My store had 2 computers; one ran on what was very similar to DOS (had to input a command to make it work, & the screen was very much like the 8-bit style), & the other was the average desktop computer. I also don’t remember the software used to run the registers as a cashier, so anyone who knows would be so incredibly helpful, lol.

    Thanks for the feedback. I don’t have any achievements to put on my resume as most of my jobs weren’t achievement-based. I’ve had a couple cold calls from recruiters, one of which I really liked; the other is just wasting my time & being really pushy for interviews without actually telling me which position they want to interview me for. I’ve asked twice for this information & she hasn’t responded except to send me more emails with increasing urgency that she “hasn’t heard from” me or “please respond. Our interview times are filling up fast and we are wrapping up or interviews!” with a “don’t miss out on this life-changing offer!!” kinda vibe. Ugh.

    Question: I had a fantastic phone interview on Wednesday with a local company. The HR lady asked if she could share my resume with another department with an internal opening, & they’d consider me for the position I interviewed for + that second opening that’s not open to external applications yet. She said she’d send me an email Friday to let me know of when I can do an in-person once she heard back from HR. She didn’t. I don’t want to come across as too pushy or needy, so should I wait until Tuesday to follow up if I still don’t hear from her on Monday?

    1. annony*

      Are you in the US? If so, I would wait until the first Friday in December. Basically, give a full week after the time she told you and the week of Thanksgiving doesn’t count. Chances are the holiday is messing with their ability to schedule.

  186. A self hating anon*

    I’m so furious with myself… I managed to make a mistake at work involving counting cash the grant total of individual amounts doesn’t equal what it should be basically…. and it can’t be fixed completely until Monday…. and I’m just running through all the reasons how I made the mistake and what I know I need to do differently and like I said I’m absolutely furious with myself…. people at work don’t seem furious though.. like apparently because it can be fixed it’s okay? No it really doesn’t feel like it…. I feel so stupid. I didn’t sleep last night because of this shit waking me up and I still have two more nights before I can fix it.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, maybe it’s because it seems like it was caught and they were informed of it pretty quickly. Having a known issue, and knowing how/when when it will be corrected, puts people more at ease even if nothing can be done immediately. Things happen.

      Think about where the process broke down: (human error, missed step, machine issue) and be prepared to discuss how you can keep it from happening again. Hopefully you work for reasonable people.

      1. A self hating anon*

        Well it was caught because of the final count before the money went to the bank… but after all of the individual amounts were combined into one large sum so it’s not as easily fixed as it could be (and I feel like it should have been prevented to start with)….. but I already know what I plan to do going forward (which is not stopping my brain from going – “well why didn’t you do that in the first place, idiot?!” every so often so…)

        1. Ron McDon*

          I know I’m replying very late, but hope you see this.

          I work with a similar-sounding system – I count all the monies and enter them on a sheet, double check it, then my boss verifies the amount for banking.

          The first time she had to do it, instead of double-checking each individual ‘pot’ of money, she poured it all into a big pile, counted it all, then queried which of the pots had been entered on the sheet wrong, as it didn’t add up.

          Of course, I had no clue, as if I had known one of the pots wasn’t totalled on the sheet correctly I would have changed the sheet!

          I felt cross with myself, she felt cross with herself, we fixed it and changed how we do it going forwards.

          Which is to say, we all make mistakes, we don’t always pick up our own mistakes, that’s why someone else double-checks it.

          I’ve mis-counted, or transposed figures since, but because my boss now does each pot one at a time she can spot the error in time. It sounds like you are very conscientious and aren’t used to making mistakes, which is why you’re dwelling on it a bit.

          It happens to us all, it sounds like it can be fixed, and you’ve identified a way to prevent it happening again – it sounds like the best possible outcome, so please give yourself a break.

    2. Alianora*

      It sounds like your coworkers are calm, levelheaded people. That’s a good thing.

      I can understand getting really, really upset over mistakes. Especially ones that would have significant consequences if they weren’t caught. I used to really beat myself up over things like that, even if I did catch my own mistake in time. But the thing is, raging at yourself doesn’t really help you learn from your mistake.

      Like MissDisplaced says, it’s far more useful if you can figure out where in the process you went wrong, and how to fix it. And that’s hard to do if you’re stuck in a cycle of anger and shame and anxiety. Yes, acknowledge that you feel bad, but if you can manage to move past it and start thinking of how to fix it, it’ll be better for all involved.

      1. A self hating anon*

        Yeah I mostly get that… I’m just stuck in a cylcle of “why the fuck didn’t you pay more attention/do what you should have done in the first place, idiot” when I think about what I need to do differently in the future…. blah. It being the weekend is not helping because I can’t fix the current mess until Monday.

        1. Alianora*

          Yeah and that’s fine, it’s normal for that to happen to some extent. Just takes some time to get over it.

  187. Zephy*

    We’ve rented out our auditorium (and the hallway outside of it, which is also outside of my office) to some kind of faith-based women’s empowerment seminar thing this weekend. There’s also four other events on campus today. I’m very thirsty but I can hear that there’s roughly a billion people in the hall and I don’t feel like awkwardly scooting past a bunch of ex-cheerleaders in head-to-toe Lilly Pulitzer shouting “GOOD MORNING BEAUTIFUL!” at each other just to refill my mug.

    On the plus side, my 10:00 did show, so I did something besides keep this chair warm and run up the power bill today! Here’s hoping my other two appointments also come in today.

    1. LQ*

      The best part of working on the weekend is always that no one else is around. Last time someone else was here it freaked me out so much I dropped and broke my coffee mug. I’d be very sad if there was a hall full of folks between me and tea.
      Good luck with getting folks to show up!

      1. Zephy*

        Eh, I prefer having appointments and things to do to the alternative. The last Saturday I worked, I could have napped the entire time, or watched Good Omens again, or gone up the street to pet cats at the animal shelter and just popped by campus to clock in and out, and it would have made no difference. No calls, no emails, no nothing.

        My 11:00 also eventually showed; my 2:00 didn’t, but I called him and was able to reschedule, so here’s hoping that comes through. I don’t know if it’s a college-student thing or a Gen Z thing or a quirk of the students on my particular campus, but they all just seem to be really bad at keeping appointments.

        1. LQ*

          Every time I’ve been in a role where people were supposed to keep appointments it was like that. I had a role for a while where if you didn’t show up you didn’t get money that you likely REALLY needed at that point. You could call and tell us and we’d reschedule. But there were so many no shows. It still surprises me. I always expected excuses to be better than they were too. Like either sad (truthfully or not) and trying to pluck at the heartstrings, or something. But most of the time it was like, “Eh I didn’t really care.” um…ok?

          The only thing that changed it was day of phone call reminders in the morning of the appointment. Otherwise it was like 75% no show rates.

          1. Zephy*

            My 2:00’s excuse was that he was asleep.

            Most of the time the excuse I’m offered is “I forgot.” Or “I didn’t get the documents from my parents.” So, the appropriate thing is to let me know so we can reschedule and not just ghost, so I can use the hour I set aside specifically to help you do this thing to do something else. And especially don’t just show up at some random time in the future. At that point, I have no choice but to drop what I’m doing and get whatever you need taken care of, because clearly I can’t just make an appointment with you to take care of you later.

  188. Holly J.*

    Thoughts on leaving off “co-founder” title on a resume?

    I co-founded a tech company a few years ago. We raised money, joined a very famous accelerator, had investment from a big-name corporation.

    I was advised to take “Co-founder” off my resume and even instead of COO, just say “Director of Operations.” I was told that companies don’t want to hire you because:

    1. They think you’ll leave to just start your own company.
    2. It shrinks all your accomplishments, no matter how great, if you co-founded it because it’s more impressive to have someone else as the employer to validate you.

    Do you agree?

    As an aside: I had another small, part-time company when I first graduated from college. I worked maybe 5 hours a week at it. I was applying to entry-level jobs. At that time, recruiters could still ask you how much money you made, and I told them $80/hr. The recruiter wrote down $18/hr. When I corrected her, she was like, “Well no one is ever going to hire you if you have that on your resume.” So I took it off.

    1. Filosofickle*

      There isn’t a way to win with everybody. You were a founder, that’s true, and some people will see that as a signal you’re too entrepreneurial to be a staff employee. But it’s accurate. If you claim another title, it may come out in interviews anyway that you founded it so that only gets you past the screeners. It may go over better in a entrepreneur/tech heavy area, where everyone seems to have founded something.

      Size of the company is a big factor in the alternate titles. If it was fairly large, COO could make sense. If it was smaller, then Director is often most appropriate. The C-level title positions you very high and at the same time many won’t respect your role as a “real” COO and will believe you’ve inflated your title.

      I’d consider what kind of title/position you’re going for and work backwards. If you’re pursuing Director level jobs, then not over-shooting might be helpful. If you’re looking for principal/VP/C-level, then showing that experience might be better.

  189. LQ*

    Ahhh! New jobs posted. One of them looks a lot like my resume. So much that I’m likely the only person who can meet the minimum qualifications, you could maybe do it if you were from another state, maybe. (We have to do it this way, I know people hate it, I REALLY hate it, but I can’t change the entire way the whole big org of tens of thousands of employees hire, so don’t attack me for it please.) Despite this and knowing that I’m the only person who can actually claim those qualifications, I still do not feel like there is any way I have all these skills. This is work I do every day and I still do not feel like I meet the minimums.

    I have a bunch of other work I need to do today, but this posting is going to eat my damn brain because I feel like there is no way to justify giving me this promotion. How do you deal with a giant whallop of imposter syndrome? (Of course, it may not be imposter syndrome, it may just be actually being an imposter and now I’m going to go take a walk around the building.)

  190. susie to go*

    I need your advice! I’m currently in my least stressful job ever and
    when I’m left to my own devices, I pretty much enjoy what do (mostly
    data entry, low interaction with others). A few months back, I asked
    my boss, after a little over a year of settling in and getting my work
    running smoothly, if there was something else I could add to my
    routine- something that would fit in with what do. I was given a
    report to send out daily and it’s perfect for what I was looking for-
    it’s relatively low priority, so no matter the time of day it comes
    out, it’s fine.

    Currently, my boss wants me to learn a new project that is still data
    entry but is different enough from my current job that I’m not picking
    it up quickly. Part of why I’m not picking it up quickly is that my
    boss went over the basic outline of what the new project is, then said
    she’d just start handing me any of the others that came in and as they
    came in and had problems, she’d discuss those problems together. That
    is one way of doing things, so at first, I was down with it. But it
    immediately started off on the wrong foot. When she gives me these
    new projects, she doesn’t look at them ahead of time to see if she’s
    taught me what they are yet (and a lot of them are no where near what
    we’ve discussed). A few times, she’s come to collect them back because
    she realized that there was data about the loads that only she had and
    she needed to do those herself. Not only that, unlike most of my job,
    these have to be done immediately, as in, no matter what I’m currently
    doing, if she brings me one or more, I’m expected to drop what I’m
    doing to do her project. TO make matters worse, I knew that they were
    time sensitive so I was trying to be careful with the data but also be
    aware of how long I was taking on each. Turns out, apparently she
    doesn’t give them to me right away, so now I’m apparently BEHIND no
    matter what I do.

    I had planned to take Thursday and Friday off of the week before
    Thanksgiving and right before I left on Wednesday, having gotten
    everything as caught up as I could, my boss told me that I had to stop
    using excuses like catching up/holidays/etc as times when it’s
    inconvenient to learn this project because if she’s out of the office
    for some reason, I’m going to have to just put my work aside to take
    care of this project regardless of how busy I am or what the holiday
    schedule is like. So, I fully expect that Monday, after having a three
    day week and on a three day week because of the holiday, she’s going
    to drown me in her projects. (I have yet to point out to her that if
    she doesn’t train me ahead of time, if she gets hit by a bus tomorrow,
    I’m literally not going to know anything but the bare bones of what
    the project is and will be essentially useless.)

    To make matters worse, my boss takes care of my inbox and covers my
    work while I’m gone. She has repeatedly said how hard it is to do my
    job when I’m gone. She asked that I not get into my inbox while I am
    out because I tend to sort of my inbox in a way that doesn’t make
    sense to her. So, I waited until Friday night at 11 PM to get into my
    inbox and check what was done so that when I came in on Monday
    morning, I’d have an initial run through of what was done and what
    wasn’t and was set to get caught up on Monday morning. I logged in
    this afternoon and apparently my boss was at work and was doing
    something in my inbox, so now I’m worried that she’s going to be
    pissed off that I sorted my inbox- even though I had no reasonable
    expectation that she’d get in it after end of business day Friday.

    At this point, I think there’s a really good chance this is going to
    come to blows on Monday- either I quit or get fired. I certainly don’t
    want that to be true, but it FEELS that way. Am I overreacting? Any
    thoughts on how to tackle in the inevitable discussion Monday morning?
    I’d rather go to her Monday and hash it out, but I don’t know exactly
    how to convey how disappointed and upset I am at all this. I’ve spent
    from Wednesday night to now crying and what was supposed to be a long
    birthday weekend has pretty much just been miserable. She’s the boss
    and obviously, she’s going to be right in the end, so I know to some
    extent I need to let go of the emotional aspect of the job. I don’t
    think she’s doing it out of spite because that wouldn’t make sense
    business wise and she’s a genuinely a nice person who also tries to
    avoid confrontation.

    Thank you for any help you can give me! I making myself miserable
    trying to think of the best way to handle this.

    1. Arts Akimbo*

      I’m sorry, she sounds like a misery to work for. I would not do well with this level of uncertainty and lack of communication, and it sounds like you don’t, either. Maybe see what else is out there for you.

      1. valentine*

        Unless these are new or she never took time off from the day you started until she assigned you these difficult (half-assed?) projects, only she did them or someone else did them in her absence. Meaning she’ll using time off as “an excuse” for you to do them. Is there someone you can casually mention them to, who will hopefully let slip they’re not really emergencies or what the deal is? A third-party perspective should help you here. This person’s an unreliable narrator.

        Point out to her that you need to know x, y, and z in order to cover them in her absence. If possible, suggest someone else who it might make more sense to assign them to. Either way, remind her she was going to brief you, not just dump them on you. Tell her you could complete them x hours earlier if you had y info. I totally think she hates this and is using you, but she’s doing a piss-poor job of it. She should do as much as it takes to hand it over in good faith, thus spending less overall time dealing with it. She’s tripping over herself to throw them at you, and knocking you out.

        Does she have other work you’d prefer, that you could offer to do instead?

        It’s a real shame she’s harshing your mellow.

  191. Anon*

    A bit of a dilemna: I interviewed for a job a few days ago. Send a thank you message but stated that I didn’t think it was the best fit. I realize I should have asked a few clarifying questions first, because I think I am actually misunderstood something. Should I send another email, or let it go? I haven’t gotten a reply from first message, but it is the weekend.

    1. valentine*

      It may make you seem wishy-washy. Is that worth it and would you really want the job if x, y, and z?

      I wouldn’t expect a reply. You took yourself out of the running.

  192. Alexi*

    I have been on FMLA the past week. The week before that, I called in sick every day, with the exception of staying half one day in the week. Basically I’ve been sick for the past two weeks and this week is Thanksgiving.

    During this time while I was sick I also got a call for a job interview, but I told them I would not be well by the end of the week. I am in the states and this week is Thanksgiving. The guy wanting to interview me won’t be in the office the whole week. So his secretary gave me a interview slot for the week I come back.

    How do I ask off for that time? I wanted to say it was a followup appt from the doctor, but I am concerned that my boss will ask for a note. (Although she never has in the past.)

Comments are closed.