open thread – January 3-4, 2020

by Alison Green on January 3, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You don’t dread going to work every day. You aren’t physically suffering because of the psychological suffering you experience at work. It isn’t a cult.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. And I’d also add that your management team advocates for you and your team to ensure you’re adequately staffed and compensated, your time off requests are respected (and no one guilt trips you when you return for taking your hard earned PTO time), your feedback/ideas/input are solicited and implemented when they can be within reason, and you’re constantly learning and growing.

        1. JJ Bittenbinder*

          I love this answer. I’d add that in a healthy workplace, your management creates an atmosphere of trust and one in which you can do your work (have the tools and resources, have decision-making power appropriate to your role, helps with any bureaucracy) and acts a buffer between you and any problems in the next layer of management (i.e., between them and their managers).

      2. Bunny Girl*

        Your boss doesn’t refuse to take action on multiple complaints of sexual harassment against someone bEcAuSe ThEy’Re TeNuRe. And yes I do dread going to work every day.

        1. bleh*

          So sorry you are in this toxicity. I experienced this very behavior at my last institution. He did eventually retire though.

      1. LKW*

        At a healthy work place you wouldn’t have an aggressor, but if there were a conflict, management would hear both sides of any conflict.

        1. fposte*

          I think even in a good workplace people will do shitty things, though. There’s no foolproof way to make sure nobody you hire ever does a shitty thing. The question is how the workplace deals with them when they happen.

        2. CastIrony*

          Lol, nope. I’ve been stepping aside and trying to avoid conflict by changing my work schedule to make sure he’s not having to be near me because my supervisor and boss will not fire him. Good way to push me out of a job, lol

      2. Adlib*

        Yes, this. I liked my previous boss, but boy, was he a squish regarding the bullies I had to put up with from another department. He’d rather roll over than be confrontational.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      I can think of a few areas.

      – the company follows the law (employement law, safety, etc)
      – the employer genuinely cares about the well being of their employees. They want them to do their job well, but without being burnt out or miserable.
      – good performance is rewarded (raises, promotions, more interesting tasks, perks, professional development), bad performance is addressed (up to and including firing).
      – feedback is provided in a timely and clear fashion
      – employees are not blamed for things outside of their control
      – employees are expected to behave in a polite and considerate fashion to other employees, including across power differentials.
      – employees can bring up concerns to their managers, and be listened to, and not punished for doing so.
      – the employer recognizes that their employees have lives outside of work that sometimes impact their job.

      Take the opposite of that for toxic places – places that are punitive, bullying, capricious, vindictive, and demanding, do dodgy semi-legal or really illegal stuff, let bad employees slack and squeeze everything they can out of good ones without reward.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        – good performance is rewarded (raises, promotions, more interesting tasks, perks, professional development), bad performance is addressed (up to and including firing).

        Just to be more specific on this one point, the best employer I ever had prioritised reinvestment in its people (compensation and training) ahead of stakeholder payouts. It was brought up at interview and I saw it happen when I worked there. Unsurprisingly, the business grew and grew and grew, at the expense of its competitors who were more concerned with short-term bottom line; and it was a far, far healthier place to work.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Such a common sense thing, yet how many employers actually do it? Far too few.
          An additional bit of advice that impressed me was the advice to save money during good times and when there are lulls use that money to invest in employee training and upgrades for the systems in place. This is to prepare for the next busy season.

        2. Not a cat*

          The stakeholder/shareholder payouts thing is an interesting and terrible phenomenon. Its genesis can be found in the advent of “business consultants” (McKinsey, BCG, etc.) and their determination that the organization’s actual client is the shareholder NOT the actual client (ie policyholder for insurance biz). It also contributes to outsized CEO remuneration.

          1. Arts Akimbo*

            I have always wondered about this! Is there anything you recommend I could read about it?

      2. Quinalla*

        This is a good list, I would add to this one:
        – employees can bring up concerns to their managers, and be listened to, and not punished for doing so.
        Not just aren’t punished, employees are encouraged and solicited to provide feedback and feedback is followed up on with how action is being taken or why action is not being taken.

        1. Not a cat*

          Also, vague feedback. Recently, I received this comment about a 20-page technical whitepaper- “there is a grammatical error…” with no hint as to where or what the error is. I’ve learned to interpret this as “I don’t like something about the content, but I am not going to tell you why because its more fun for me this way.”

    4. Sherm*

      The AAM archives will show you that there are a myriad forms of toxic, but broadly, I would say a toxic company is one where power is abused. It could be a manager who screams, or demands that you donate your liver, but it could also be a coworker who gets away with murder and knows nothing will be done about it. A healthy and functional workplace is one that is not toxic and one that regularly accomplishes its goals or made a good effort.

      Which leads me to suggest that a company can be neither functional nor toxic — merely dysfunctional. I once worked at a retail store where the boss all the time changed her mind. “Put the llama statues to the left of the rice sculptures.” After I spent a day accomplishing that, I would soon be told “Actually, put them to the right of the rice sculptures.” “No, I think they should go in the back of the store.” “To the front, I’ve decided.” I wouldn’t say it was toxic — it was just annoying instead of psychologically damaging — but it sure wasn’t efficient. Everyone can be nice and sweet and still be dysfunctional.

      1. Roy G. Biv*

        “Which leads me to suggest that a company can be neither functional nor toxic — merely dysfunctional.”
        Yes! This probably more so than anything else, in my work experience. Dysfunctional, in the sense that wasting other people’s time is never seen as a problem, but not getting work accomplished IS a problem. Can you not see how these go together?

        “I would have finished that today, Steve, but you made me sit in a 4 hour meeting with you, and it was pretty obvious I did not need to be in there the whole time.”

        This was the boss that loved to have an audience, and a catered lunch. Hence, loooooong meetings.

      2. Employee of the Bearimy*

        This is an excellent point – my company is dysfunctional in many ways, but we’re not actually toxic. It’s very frustrating a lot of the time, because I can see very clearly how much more we could do if we all actually worked together the way we should, but a lot of that is above my pay grade.

    5. You're toxic I'm slippin' under*

      Healthy: You feel like solutions can be found for most big-picture problems you encounter, instead of feeling like nothing will ever change and everything’s hopeless. You feel like you can be yourself (or at least a professional version of yourself!). When there’s an issue, you feel comfortable bringing it up with your manager. You don’t constantly worry about saying the wrong thing, or other people’s reactions. You’re not overhearing constant grumbling about big and little things in the lunchroom, painting a picture of overall dissatisfaction. People are friendly and feel valued. Everyone isn’t constantly looking over their shoulder or waiting for the other shoe to drop. Everyone feels secure. HR isn’t overworked with interpersonal complaints. You don’t need a glass of wine at the end of every day.

      2. grr pwr into grrl pwr*

        last workplace was the exact opposite of this and yes, i finally realized how dysfunctional it was towards the 1.5 year mark.

        needed several glasses at the end of the day and took a lot of willpower not to get one DURING! glad i am out!

    6. StellaBella*

      To reiterate, the Archives here have a lot of examples of both, so definitely spend time looking thru and reading many of those posts. My take on this, trying to look from the 10,000 foot views would be:

      Healthy:
      -Good policies and practices in place, for everything from hiring and annual reviews to transparency about finances and following the laws of where your employer is based
      -Honesty and directness in management style: management knows how to manage and direct teams and people, have been briefed and trained in how to communicate how to do tasks well, how to coach for success and advancement, and correctly and how to plan for change, and how to strategise
      -Trustworthiness of teammates and management, clear, open communication
      -Clear direction of the team and the company – including startups. Aiming for a set of clear goals.
      -Fair treatment of employers and no favouritism
      -Compensation and benefits etc are fair for the market and across equal roles
      -People are treated like adults
      -Ethics are important in a healthy work. environment, and the staff and management have them, exhibit. them and are guided by policies that enforce them
      -Core competencies for each role are clearly determined, updated when. needed, and are used as the basis for annual reviews and promotion justification as well as other management decisions like termination
      -Open door policy and not having a lot of secret meetings
      -A culture of accountability and transparency of management decisions, a culture that is not prone to gossiping by anyone

      Hope this helps a bit?

      1. Cleopatra*

        I would also add that a healthy environment is made of good communication with i) your boss and ii) your teammates. I for instance have none, which I find quite toxic and psychologically tiring. My boss has never given me any feedback since I started working in their team (nearly a year now), and the coworker with whom I share my small office and I nearly never talk. Not that we re feuding, but at the beginning, he tried to be bossy with me, except that he did not know who he was dealing with !! Ha ! I put him back in his place in a very gracious way. But well, the atmosphere is not very warm… Polite, but icy. And this does not at all make me want to come to the office every morning.

      2. Spreadsheets and Books*

        Management is SO important.

        My last job was an ostensibly good place to work (good environment, work-life balance, benefits, good morale, great community), but my department had some issues. My manager was excellent at his job duties but was given zero support in transitioning to management, and it really showed. I was his first ever direct report and it took me the better part of a year to get up to speed. I was consistently told I’d be trained on tasks, only to later learn that he’d just done them himself because it was “easier.”

        I started around the same time as a new director (my manager’s new manager) and as our SVP was also quite new, my manager was more or less responsible for training his new boss, too. It worked out worse for the new director – he got asked to leave after a little under two years because he received absolutely no support whatsoever and was left with enormous gaps in company-specific knowledge and systems. The SVP played favorites and information by and large bottlenecked with her direct reports, so those of us at the bottom of the pyramid were left largely in the dark. Those on my level and below were constantly left looking like idiots for asking questions about information we didn’t have because emails never made it down the chain to us.

        In the 2.5 years I was there, my department of 7 saw 7 people leave, including people who were hired after me. Great company. Other departments functioned well. Mine was just a trainwreck because management was so poor.

        1. Mama Bear*

          My husband was told “people don’t quit bad jobs – they quit bad managers.” This is very true. People can deal with a lot if they have solid leadership. They will bail if they feel like their manager doesn’t care, or worse, is against them.

          1. Spreadsheets and Books*

            And that’s exactly what happened in my situation. I left because I didn’t get a promotion for the same crap excuse given to a few other people who left for the same reason (primarily related to the aforementioned information bottlenecks). That team lost 4 good, dedicated employees who weren’t given the opportunity to move up and, as a consequence, got a few very poor new hires in exchange.

            I moved on about 9 months ago and I’m so glad I did. No management issues here!

    7. CM*

      I like this question, and, the more I think about it, the less I’m sure that a perfectly healthy workplace exists. But, I think that, if we say all workplaces have healthy elements and toxic elements, and we want to look for workplaces that are MUCH MORE healthy than they are toxic, I think the key things to look for are:

      1) A strong foundation for the organization where the mission and day-to-day activities align, people’s roles and responsibilities make sense, people in key positions have adequate training and support to do their jobs, they follow ethical business practices, there’s good communication & transparency, etc.

      2) The cultural norm is dignity, respect, and accountability for everyone.

      2. Quinalla*

        Agreed that perfectly healthy workplaces are not something that exists, but yes, you want to find one that is overall healthy with a minimum of unhealthy things. I think it is important to know where those unhealthy spots are in your company and make changes as you can, but at least be aware so they don’t bite you or you can work around them.

    8. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      You can be honest with your coworkers and manager. For example, when there was a horribly executed firing I told him I hoped this wasn’t the way the company delt with low performing employees.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Instructions are clearly given to all (no mind reading after the boss makes a casual aside to one person in 7).
      Employees can ask questions without getting mocked or scolded.

    10. girl friday*

      The saddest kind of workplace is the one that is healthy and functioning (non-toxic) but located within a dysfunctional or toxic company. I’ve had that experience, more or less, on my last couple of jobs including my current one. Leaving my last job was painful because I genuinely liked the atmosphere and (most of) the people in the department, but was forced to realize that the company was going downhill fast (so many red lights blinking and then flashing, I felt like my job was not safe in the long term). I’ve jumped to another stellar workplace, but the company (while very stable, and large) is one of the most dysfunctional companies I’ve ever worked for, in a uniquely horrible “too big to fail” way.

    11. SlenderFluid*

      Going into work each day expecting that there’s a good chance you’ll (be allowed to) do something that will leave you feeling you’ve contributed something useful to something at the end of that day.

      For the converse, take the number of weird people in the world and multiply it by the number of normal people in the world, and that’s how many ways a situation can be toxic (and that’s even without cliques, cabals and enablers combining to turbo-charge each other’s dysfunction). As a general rule for when it’s time to start polishing the resume though, I go by waking up feeling stressed because I’ve been dreaming about work and there’s no sense of relief thinking ‘Oh, it was just a dream’, because I’ve woken up to the same situation. Sleep is the ultimate me time, and no one gets to mess with that if there’s any possible way of avoiding it.

    12. WantonSeedStitch*

      Colleagues act collegially. They don’t snipe at each other, sabotage each other’s work, or try to make each other look bad. They help one another and work well together because they honestly want everyone to do well. Managers manage. They give both positive and what my HR head calls “constructive” feedback, promptly and in a professional way. They don’t play favorites, but do reward high performers appropriately. Individual contributors trust and respect their managers. They know that the managers will advocate for them, and that they are invested in their success. When you go into the office, you feel like you are in a place where people want you to succeed and give you the tools, feedback, and support you need to do so.

    13. Jean*

      A toxic workplace is like art, or pornography. Difficult to define, but you know it when you see it.

    14. No Complaints*

      A place where the company understands that every person should not be at 100% capacity at all times and staffs accordingly. In my current group, the work could be done by 4 people, but it isn’t, our group is 5 people. We have room in our schedules and are actively encouraged to do professional development.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        When you take reasonable leave policies into account, 80-90% capacity is the maximum you should expect. Staffing for 75% gets my respect! Space to excel, and to exceed customer expectations.

    15. MissDisplaced*

      It’s hard to say because of how people view “work,” but in general the basics are:
      Adequate pay, good work/life balance, some flexibility, sound leadership and management decisions, a respectful culture, and opportunity to grow and learn new things.

      Bonuses: A strong reward system based on company success, above-average PTO, leadership that is invested in seeing employees grow their skills by training, classes or tuition help.

      Keep in mind though, that some people will still be unhappy even with all of the above. Because I guess that’s just how humans roll. Even a “perfect” environment may not be perfect for you forever if upward movement is limited (which eventually it will be) and good companies may get bad apples. LOL! I think the key is this is recognized and the leadership either encourages the high achievers to move up & outward so they don’t stagnate and become miserable, and also get rid of those rotten apples much more quickly.

    16. Sunflower*

      Generally- one where you feel you have open, safe and respected communication with your boss and where you feel valued and respected. There’s so many little things within that- like some days you’re gonna wanna kill your boss or think your boss handled things badly. Or unhappy with a decision higher-ups made. But you’ve gotta look at the overall picture.

    17. De Minimis*

      People work as a team and share information, both within and between departments. Managers give you the tools and information you need to do your job, instead of just letting you sink or swim. New hires are trained and shown everything they need to know, both in their work and for HR/admin policies [how to enroll in programs, how their leave works, who to contact for assistance, what to do when calling out, etc.]

    18. Nesprin*

      Good work is the priority: policies are aligned with the goal of doing good work, people doing good work are recognized and rewarded, and issues (be they personnel, policy or priorities) preventing good work are dealt with quickly before they fester.

    19. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Co-workers resolve problems — whenever possible — directly with you, instead of running to management/HR.

      When management/HR does hear concerns about you, they tell you about those concerns in detail (including where necessary with a strong warning not to retaliate [and back it up when need be]) and hear your side of the story in full before making any decisions.

    20. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Managers (and other superiors) tell you — clearly and directly — about problems early on, with plenty of time to fix them before any consequences need to happen.

    3. You're toxic I'm slippin' under*

      My intial ideas:

      – Have someone neutral within the company that you can bounce things off to make sure you’re not off-base or reading things wrong, and who can offer their insight
      – Give yourself time to cool down if you feel upset or heated about something – take emotion out of it
      – Try and gauge whether there is a precedent for what you’re asking for
      – Give specific examples, whether it be about what you want to change, or about what you are asking for. Also be specific about what you want or expect everyone involved to get out of whatever it is you’re asking for
      – Be prepared with answers to any questions that might come up – show you’ve thought deeply about what you’re asking for or bringing up
      – Know your own value and what your lines in the sand are
      – Be prepared for all possibilities and think about how your will react if it doesn’t go your way

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Annnddd… when you get what you ask for or get a reasonable compromise, DECIDE to be satisfied.

        It can surprise us when we have a win and some how still do not feel settled. Decide that x solution is the best solution possible given the givens and take satisfaction in having moved this far.

      3. Heat's Kitchen*

        An old colleague of mine and I came up with the “manana rule”. If one of us was upset about something, we could vent to each other about it, but we would never actually respond until the next day. Usually, things calmed down and we were able to have a more reasonable response.

    4. Mockingjay*

      24-hour postponement rule. Whether you are proposing a new idea, a change in process, a fix for a failure, or (especially) you are reacting to a bad situation with coworker, manager, project, sit on it at least overnight.

      This cooling-off period allows you to take some of the emotion out and more objectively evaluate what you want to get or offer. This includes positive emotions; you might be so enthusiastic about Great New System that you can’t see any flaws.

      1. Aquawoman*

        +1. I definitely have a “don’t discuss while angry” rule. Think about it from both sides–it affects you and it affects your employer, how will it benefit your employer to cooperate with the thing you are seeking, does it affect others and if so how. One of the main things I had to advocate for myself about was a workplace bully, but he didn’t just affect me, he affected most of the (high functioning) people who dealt with him, reflected badly on my employer, and caused demonstrably bad outcomes.

      2. bleh*

        This so much. For email responses too. Let that message sit for a day and then see if you still want to send it.

    5. CM*

      Read the classic negotiation book, Getting to Yes! I think everybody should read this book. It will teach you how to identify your own needs and wants (“interests,” to use the same term as the book), how to ask for them in an effective and direct way, and how to deal with a “no.”

      The book also teaches you the concept of a BATNA, Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement — before you ask for something, you should think about what your alternatives are. That will help you in the moment if the person you’re talking to says no or offers you something unexpected instead.

    6. Heat's Kitchen*

      This is a loaded question. Here’s a few things I”ve learned in my 10 years in the corporate world:
      – Set boundaries. Block time on your calendar as needed. I’ve never really needed to save my lunch time, but some places do. Mark yourself OOO when you have an evening appointment. And don’t compromise on those.
      – Know you can say no if you don’t have time. But do it in such a way where you are coming up with a proposed solution (I can’t do X, but maybe Zena has the time. Or I can only do X if you let me take more time to do Z)
      – Talk to your boss (or someone you trust) about where you want to go in the company. What your goals are and ask them what you should focus on to achieve them.
      – Volunteer for additional work, when it makes sense and gets you visible to others in the organization.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think the biggest thing I’ve learned (in reasonable places with reasonable people), is to just….be willing to bring things up. You have to be willing to talk about the things that are causing problems, not bury them, or agonize over them for so long they start burning you out. If it’s not working, it’s worth mentioning sooner rather than later. The tone should always be professional and collaborative, approached in a spirit of problem solving, but you have to be willing to start the conversation.

    8. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      Advocate for other people who need help being heard and you will be seen by others as someone worth advocating for. Not immediately and not always, but after 20 years in my industry, I see that it does come back.

  3. Anonymous Educator*

    How much (percentage-wise) has your salary gone up or down since the beginning of 2010?

      1. Fantasma*

        Same – up 200%. In 2010, I worked in a different field, was underpaid and freelanced on the side.

      2. zora*

        Same, up 200%. I was working in a very underfunded nonprofit and making bad career decisions. So now I’m making a reasonable wage for my area, but really I should be able to make a lot more. I’m aiming for another 50% increase this year.

    4. Gaia*

      86% increase but almost all of that is as a result of moving out of customer service/call center work and into data work in a very specific way.

    5. Diahann Carroll*

      100% as I made 0% at the beginning of 2010, lol. But by the end of 2010? 61% increase since then.

      1. You're toxic I'm slippin' under*

        I just calculated mine at exactly +284% too, wild! I am also no Scrooge McDuck, I was flipping burgers in 2010.

        1. Gatomon*

          Whoohoo! I remember my days rocking the grill! We used to see who could make the biggest flames with the greasy burgers. My stomach cramps now just thinking about trying to eat that garbage.

      3. we're basically gods*

        Also in camp +284%!
        That’s moving from minimum wage to web developer, though…

    7. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Impossible to say; at the time I had a part-time job and was doing freelance work on the side. But at least a 50% increase since then, maybe more.

    8. BeeBoo*

      263%. But over the past 10 years I’ve gotten two masters, worked at 3 different companies, and gone from entry level in a lower cost of living area to senior management in an extremely high cost of living area.

    11. Eliza*

      I’m a contractor who’s paid by the hour; depending on the type of work I’m doing for a particular project, my rates are 25-50% higher than they were. I’m also working more hours than I used to.

      I’m in a tiny creative field where nobody makes any money (like, almost literally; hobbyists doing it for free far outnumber people making a living from it), so I’m pretty happy with those increases.

    13. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My actual base salary is ~175% of what my base salary was then – including my supplemental work hours, my expected annual income from my employer is 195% of my 2010 income.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Same career field, but in 2010 I was in Seattle and now I am in the Midwest, suburbs of a large city.

    14. Not Dave*

      384%. In 2010 I worked the line in a factory, ended the decade managing large construction projects. A very long, strange trip between those two points – sometimes feels like the last 10 years was actually 20.

    15. zaracat*

      Marginally increased, maybe 5%. It has mainly varied according to the number of hours/cases I do. I freelance in the private health care system in Australia and my billing is directly linked to government health care subsidies, which have been frozen since 2013.

    16. NeverNicky*

      +67%

      This is in the same job for the same charity. I had a major jump when the salaries were re-graded and I have had merit and inflationary rises since.

    17. Princesa Zelda*

      Mine has gone up nearly 50% — I started at federal minimum wage ($7.25) as a cashier at a fast food establishment, and my entire pay-band got a raise from our city council to $15 that went into effect on Monday.

      1. Princesa Zelda*

        Ugh, /math/: It’s a bit more than doubled, so a little over 100%. I get percentage growth vs percentage of turned around.

    18. MommaCat*

      186% from 2010. My first job was massively underpaid. I had two ~50% jumps in two years after leaving that job which accounts for most of the increase, though I’ve gone down about 9% from my highest pay. The work is easier, though, so it seems fair to me.

      1. MommaCat*

        I work in the arts, but I pivoted to arts education. The massive pay increase tells you more about how poorly the arts pay than how well education pays.

    19. Historic Hamlet Dweller*

      My current salary is 413% of my salary in 2010. That said, in 2010 I was working part time in call centres while studying and I’m now a nonprofit director…

    21. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      +50% – that is, looking at just hourly. I actually take home less each month because I’ve had two babies since then and cut down on my hours worked.

    23. Everdene*

      Increased by 65%. Although if you’d asked at most points during the decade it would’ve been a decrease. 2020 compared to 2010 includes moving to management, another degree and going full time. I’m hoping for another ~20% this year if the plan comes together.

    24. Discordia Angel Jones*

      + 100% but caveat that heavily with:

      In 2010 I was working retail.
      Now I’m a lawyer.
      The pay increase between my first job as a lawyer and retail in 2010 was 0%.
      The pay increase between my first job as a lawyer and my current job is +100% (i.e. double).
      I haven’t had a pay increase since joining this firm in 2017, not even COL (and tbh I’m still not paid enough to be comfortable living, don’t believe everything you read about lawyers being paid loads).

        1. Now in the Job*

          ^ Me, also a lawyer.
          Then again, me, looks at my attorney friends who make $60-70K/year, and my graphic designer friend who makes $90K/year.

        2. Amy Sly*

          When I worked at a comfort shoe mall boutique in 2010, I was $8/hr + commission, which averaged out to be about $22K/yr. (Though my mall was dying, so I could have gotten up to $25K or $28K if I had transferred to a busier location.) One of the lawyer jobs I got a second interview for at that time paid $34K. My only JD required job I’ve had in 10 years post graduation was $25/hr as a document review contractor, which came up to only $48K/yr between voluntary unpaid time off and furloughs.

          Some retail pays surprisingly well, and quite a lot of entry level law pays surprisingly poorly.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Lawyers aren’t all high paid folks. It varies by expertise and area widely. Lots of lawyers struggle financially even.

          1. Discordia Angel Jones*

            ^ This.

            I’m one of those financially struggling lawyers despite being better off than I was in 2010 / in retail.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              It’s because everyone thinks about the powerhouse defense attorneys out there that they see or the fact you can get a bill for $250-350 an hour for a consult. That’s not going into their pockets! Just like when you pay $125 an hour labor for a mechanic, your mechanic is not raking in that cash. It’s a business…overhead is in those prices…yadda yadda yadda.

        4. Discordia Angel Jones*

          Yep. My job as a middling experienced lawyer pays only double what I was making in retail.

          My first job as a baby lawyer paid the same as what I was making in retail (to be fair I was working one part time job in high end retail and one part time job in front of house at a theater where a Disney musical was on, which totaled the same as my baby lawyer job, so not supermarket retail).

          1. Kiwiii*

            Supermarket retail can pay okay, even. I know we hired leads (which could basically be anyone over 18, who could work full time, and had over a year of experience) and night shift employees for a couple dollars an hour more than I made at my first desk job.

        5. NotAnotherManager!*

          People tend grossly overestimate what the average lawyer makes. Only BigLaw associates make the $150K+ starting salaries, and they only represent 20-30% of law school grads, depending on the year. Looking at average salary is also misleading because of how skewed the relatively small percentage of upper-earners bring in. There are many more attorneys in government, public defender, nonprofit, corporate, and document reviewer positions that make a lot less.

          1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

            BigLaw vs. other lawyers: I suspect the hourly pay difference is much less than the annual pay difference.

    25. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

      260%. Three moves, three continents and three promotions. I had to fast track it because I moved back to the US in 2009 without a job and had to catch up.

    26. Mrs. Burt Wonderstone*

      278% since I got my first job straight out of college in 2011.
      That includes internal promotions, new jobs, new employers, and leaving state government.

    27. Llamalawyer*

      Good post that really has me thinking. Can’t remember my exact salary but I am guesstimating maybe 40%. Considering that I went from being a third year law firm associate to now in a few years into being a partner, this reaffirms my displeasure with the direction and management of my firm and fuels my desire to go out in my own this time next year.

    28. Rebecca*

      0.97, yes, less than 1%, but wow that tiny raise bump that wouldn’t buy me a coffee at the convenience store nearby was a huge morale booster. /s

      1. Gramarye*

        Pretty much the same at 1435% :D I was working less than a couple days a week as a teenage lifeguard in 2010.

    30. Jobbyjob*

      +840%!! That math is crazy- 2010 I was on a grad student stipend and now I am well into my career (currently middle management).

        1. Inopportune Moose*

          Ditto– from my work study average to my current gig, I’m up 593% (although that’s counting the raise I got yesterday, sooo…).

    33. Thalia*

      5050% However, I was a grad student and part-time waitress in 2010. It’s a mere 71% increase since 2014 when I started my career.

      1. Thalia*

        Actually 2010 may have been the year I had the grad stipend, so maybe just a 415% increase… funny how quickly we forget things that were vitally important at the time.

    34. N.J.*

      I e had a lot of income instability and thus is across multiple job changes.

      +31%, then -40%, then -20%, then +133%, then finally -23%, for a final change between original 2010 job and my job now of +13 %.

    35. girl friday*

      Is everyone adjusting for inflation?
      Your pay can seem to be increasing, but may actually be going backward if it’s not increasing enough…

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I found this about the CPI: “According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, today’s prices in 2020 are 17.96% higher than average prices since 2010.”

        1. Quiltrrr*

          At a 26% increase in the past 10 years, no wonder I don’t feel like I’ve really accomplished anything.

      2. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. There are a lot of factors. The price of groceries has gone up, for example. We have fewer kids at home but pay about the same for food.

    36. triplehiccup*

      +212% (a little more than tripled)
      I started in education in 2010, first as a classroom teacher, then into research and consulting, and now at a federal agency with a strong pay scale and a boss who successfully fought to get me more money from the start. Moving from a lower cost area with no state income tax to one with much higher cost of living and steep state taxes cuts into that jump.

    37. Here for randomness*

      About +30% income, but housing expense went up about 50% due to a location change.

    38. Hazelthyme*

      393%.

      After being unemployed for the last several months of 2009 and the first 6 weeks of 2010, I took a long-term temp assignment that paid $30,000 a year. This was about 1/2 what I’d made BGR (before the Great Recession), but hey — I’d been unemployed for 9 months and at least it was in my field. I added a side hustle to bring in some extra cash, which turned into full-time work once the $30k gig ended, and started me on the path that would eventually lead to my current job: a far more lucrative consulting position in the same industry, with a base salary of $140,000 plus generous bonuses.

    39. OtterB*

      I should be able to figure out the math, but it’s been a 3% COL raise each year. (True for everyone at my small nonprofit. ) One year there was an extra couple of percent boost and one year a flat rate additional amount as merit raises for me.

    40. Zip Silver*

      About 1100%
      That’s going from part time retail to graduating in 2011 and then working up to middle management

    42. What’s with Today, today?*

      About 20%. Notoriously low paying industry and I’m probably overpaid for my market, sadly.

    43. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      Mine has bounced all over the place mostly because of switching from international work (I made way too much) to domestic government in a slim government state (I made way to little) to non-profit (ditto). Now I am about where I was when working internationally given inflation, so just about where I should be given my experience, field, and location.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        ^ This may sound job hopping but it is the nature of the beast for primarily grant-funded work. This current job will last 5 years and then it will be on to something new.

    44. Llellayena*

      60% since 2012 (base income only, with bonuses I think it’s more but it’s too early for that math). Before that was grad school so negative income.

    46. Environmental Compliance*

      I went from gov’t intern to private sector management, so about 185% hourly rate wise, and 1140% annual salary wise. Helps to also go from working just summers to working full time.

    47. Teacher Lady*

      About 275%, although to be fair, my income in 2010 was my Peace Corps living allowance. I am up 200% from my salary at my first professional job after that (started in 2013), though!

    48. Faith*

      More than tripled if you look at base salary. Quadrupled if you consider variable and deferred compensation. But I’ve changed 3 jobs since 2010 and got a big bump each time. Plus, I went from being a fairly junior staff to a subject matter expert.

      2. Kimmybear*

        I thought about that. I’ve read that women tend to plateau career-wise around 40 yo and men closer to 50. So the salary tripling between 2000 and 2010 doesn’t really compare to the 40% increase between 2010 and 2020.

    51. Goldfinch*

      +625%

      Context: 2010 was the middle of a long stretch of unemployment. I was stringing together sparse freelance jobs, tutoring, and waitressing.

      I am now working a full-time permanent position in my field, though my salary is a bit below the median.

    52. Art3mis*

      I was unemployed at the start of 2010 and eventually took a “I seriously need to find something” job and it’s gone up 61% since that job. It’s down 4% since the job I left in 2008 though.

    53. Now in the Job*

      Hourly, around 500%.
      Salary, way more than that.

      In 2010, I was a student employee at my undergrad, limited to 15 hours a week in the semester and could do the full 40 during the off time. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn’t, but I also spent four and a half months abroad, so didn’t earn much then. The whole year, probably $8-9K. Now, before bonuses, I’m at 1289%. But now I’m a lawyer in-house at a large corporation, so….

      Versus last job, on base salary, it’s -3.85%, but the bonus was $150. This year I’m expecting more, but it remains to be seen how much more…

    54. Anon the mouse*

      +629% but I’m counting since I graduated college in 2013 and was working in retail part-time for $8.50/hr.. I’ve managed to make some big jumps and finally got to negotiate my salary this year at my most recent job change with the help of a not-worth-it counter offer from my old boss. My role now is a program analyst, working in a function that’s some odd derivative of public health admin.

    55. Zephy*

      I was in college in 2010, and the job I had at that time was a Federal Work-Study job in the campus cafeteria. It was very part-time, like <15 hours per week, with no benefits to speak of, other than "free meal during your shift." Now I have a full-time grown-up job with actual benefits like health insurance and PTO. My actual take-home pay has increased by an order of magnitude.

    56. TechWorker*

      488%
      That was a job between school and university, just over minimum wage, then I got a degree and a job in tech. I feel overpaid compared to some of my friends but then I’m also stressed most of the time sooo it has to have some benefits right…

      1. TechWorker*

        That should be 388% turns out I still can’t do maths despite that ol’ maths degree…

    57. Professional Merchandiser*

      0%. I changed merchandising companies because my former company closed their merchandising division, and I didn’t know that this company NEVER gives raises. However, they do give PTO, sick time, and bereavement pay so I guess that would count as an increase? Just don’t know how to calculate.

    58. Quinalla*

      +41% base salary as bonuses are variable, most of that when I changed jobs as I was underpaid, though I have been getting steady raises since then which is great as my last job I got a total of 2 raises when I was there for 13 years :/ I’ve learned a lot from that experience.

    59. WantonSeedStitch*

      92%, which I thought was a lot until I saw how many people’s salaries have more than tripled in this time! I work at a university. Since January 2010, I have had four promotions. Annual increases here tend to be small (4% is enormous), which I think is par for the course in the nonprofit world, even at large, well-funded nonprofits.

    61. HR Lady*

      206% increase (I just did the maths!), but I’ve gone from an entry-level generic admin job in a low-paying industry (I was barely on over UK minimum wage) in a poor part of the country to a skilled professional role in a high-paying industry in London which generally has significantly higher paying salaries and a significantly higher cost of living.

      The biggest jumps have been in the last three years through changing jobs and one role paying me extra to retain me (and when after 6 months I realised I was still as miserable as sin I had a better jumping-off base to get my current role).

      I also get benefits now, including private healthcare, a bonus, a decent pension and a car allowance, none of which were even slightly likely in the 2010 job.

      Main lifestyle changes are that I haven’t been in my overdraft in a few years because I actually have savings now, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for my student loans (n.b in the UK these are automatically deducted from your salary depending on how much you get paid – I was skimming the interest for a long while) and my husband and I are planning on buying property in the next three years, we only haven’t bought yet as we’re both reluctant to leave London. I also treat myself to name-brand baked beans now ;)

      1. Beachlover*

        Approx 100% give or take. but now I work from home, where as before I was commuting, so also save on gas plus wear & tear on my car.

    62. IT Guy*

      Same company from 2010 t0 2020 – 381% increase. Went from part-time warehouse worker to senior director.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I should note that in 2010 I was a contractor with no PTO or benefits, and I’m making *almost* 100% more than I was in 2007, so I’m not complaining.

    64. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      635% if you incorporate working hours as well as hourly pay. I went from minimum wage at 20 hours a week to 40 hours a week at a bit over triple minimum.

    65. Tired of it all*

      Hiring several new team members that make significantly more than me and promising pay raises and not following through.

    66. athiker10*

      Starting from 2011 when I started professional work, (I didn’t work a lot in 2010, hiked the Appalachian Trail for 5.5 months and did temp jobs) 233%. Quite a bit of that is through a few promotions in my current role.

    68. GeorgiaB*

      205%, but I was a post-doc at the beginning of 2010 and now I work in an unrelated industry.

    69. unapologetic*

      480%. in 2010 i was working in call centres after finishing university, now i’m a senior web developer.

    70. Council'd*

      About +75%, but I was in a pretty well-paid for what it was but stagnant role for a good chunk of it. Nearly all of that 75% was an industry move and some job hopping in the last 4 years.

    71. MissDisplaced*

      + 38%
      It’s actually more than that, considering I was working part-time in 2010 and going to grad school.
      But the increase reflects the pay between the two full-time jobs and the difference between a bachelors degree versus a masters degree over 10 years time. We’ll see if that holds going forward.

    73. BlueWolf*

      Counting from when I actually started working full-time post college (2014) about 171%. But that’s going from an entry level position at a small business to a role at a much larger business followed by three promotions.

    74. RobotWithHumanHair*

      33% decrease. Was in a different job back in 2010, had been there for 11 years at that point. Been in my current job for close to 3 years now, last raise was over 2 years ago (at the end of my probationary period).

    75. Overeducated*

      400%, but I was on a grad student stipend in 2010, I still havent cracked six figures. I now spend almost as much as I made in grad school on day care for one kid, and when my infant starts in March, that second “tuition” alone will cost 12% more than I made in 2010.

    76. Bootstrap Paradox*

      What a great question to put the decade in perspective!

      My pay has increased 89% in the last decade, tho 55% of that has been within the last 6 years in my current niche. Not too bad, I think.

    77. TooTiredToThink*

      I don’t remember what my wage was in 2010, but I do remember what it was in 2008 (when I started my current career) and its been an +120% increase since then BUT my rent has gone up 220% since then so I often feel like my spending power (and general comfort level) was much higher from about 2009-2013 (I was in an industry that was unaffected by the recession).

    79. JobHunter*

      15% decrease on the straight wage. My benefits then were significantly better, but I’m not sure how to put a clear value on that.

      I had grad school and a few jobs between then and now, so my income has jumped around a bit.

    81. Elenna*

      Infinity% as I was 13 years old and not working at the start of 2010, but I don’t think that’s really the kind of answer you were looking for… :)

      1. Elenna*

        Well, I guess if you count my allowance as salary then… some very large number as my allowance was $13/month and I’m now in a full-time office job. :P

    83. amianai*

      I was a student in 2010, so my hourly rate now vs. then is roughly +431%. Higher education really can pay off.

    84. AJK*

      37%. I was working full time and going to school part-time in 2010, I finished school in 2012 and now have to pay student loans out of that difference. I was making about 10% more at my first job after graduating than I am now, but the commute costs were much higher. I also went from f0r-profit to non-profit.
      I’m lucky enough to live in a fairly low cost of living area, and my mortgage is still exactly what it was in 2010. I could make much more if I commuted to or moved to the much larger city about an hour or so south of here, but costs would go up accordingly. My current job is within walking distance of my house, and we do get some nice PTO and other perks to make up for the lower non-profit pay so I’d say I have it much better in general than I did in 2010. Back then I was juggling FT work in a somewhat toxic office and driving two hours RT to the Larger City suburbs every evening for classes to get into the field I wanted. I definitely have more options now than I did then.

    85. Seifer*

      +1000% which looks insane but I was 17 in 2010 and working a summer job only. I made decent money but since it was at the family business, it was… dysfunctional. I’m much better off now, and not just because of the money!

    86. Former Usher*

      Salary is up 18.5%. Bonus percentage is lower at current job. Including the targeted bonus at both jobs, my total cash compensation is only up 10.8%. Feels like a lost decade. Might be time to look for something else (for multiple reasons).

    89. Mistress of None*

      +311%
      In 2010 I started part-time in internet marketing working 30 hr/week. I’m still at the same company (hopefully not for long!), and my base is +62% from 2010. But between commission and incentives and the adjunct teaching I do at the university, my total compensation is up 311%. This is crazy to see.

    91. cncx*

      mine has stayed exactly the same. it went up for about five years by about 20 percent due to a relatively consistent bonus, but then that employer cut the bonus in a very grey legal way and I’m back at 2010. Late capitalism.

    93. Working for yarn*

      Roughly 600% … was working retail/temp because I couldn’t find a job in my field where I was/am living … now I’m using my experience and working in the public sector. Not in love with my job, but finding happiness where I can.

    94. The Beagle Has Landed*

      About 125%. From entry level to a promotion and regular merit and COLA raises in a municipal government.

    95. Junimo the Hutt*

      451%

      Unemployment through all of 2010 was demoralizing, but it did inspire me to go back to school and learn a few programs that put me on a new career path.

    96. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      30%+

      Same employer, but no COLA ever, and never a raise higher than 3% until my most recent one that I fought for with AAM’s great tips (and hard data!) that was ~9%.

    98. Heat's Kitchen*

      400% – 2010 was when I graduated college and I was severely underpaid at my first two jobs out of college.

    99. Parenthetically*

      Not me, but my husband: -60%, going from a salaried, degree-requiring specialist government position to a blue-collar hourly position. It’s not as bad as it looks on paper, because we live in a much much lower COL area than before, but we also have two kids now!

    100. afiendishthingy*

      +310%, although I also now have more debt and my rent has increased by 108% and so have some other expenses. but still, better off now. (at the beginning of 2010 I had a call center job in a low-paying, low COL region and now I have a job that requires a masters degree and an in-demand certification in a considerably higher COL region)

    102. Lo Squared*

      1100% since 2010 (student working a temp job)
      212% since finishing my grad degree in 2012 (moved from a high COL area that was notoriously underpaid to an even higher COL area that was appropriately compensated in a profession that has grown exponentially in demand since 2012)

    103. Beachlover*

      I accidentally posted this on another’s comment.

      Approx 100% give or take. but now I work from home, where as before I was commuting, so also save on gas plus wear & tear on my car.

    104. Nynaeve*

      +2,870%

      From grad school with part-time tutoring/student loans to making that sweet, sweet librarian money. It would actually probably be more if you counted the money I made this year (IDK how much since I haven’t gotten my tax forms yet), but less if you counted my student loans as “income” (but I figure if the IRS doesn’t, I’m not going to).

      Do I win?

    105. AnotherAlison*

      Mine is a lot more linear than most. I was 10 years into my professional career, and the last 10 years have been about 178% while the first ten were about 170%. It works out to making about 3x what I started at 20 years ago, but engineering new grad salaries are pretty decent.

    106. De Minimis*

      If I go from beginning of 2010, my salary has gone up a lot, only because I was on unemployment from late 2009 to early 2011.

      But if I go back to the job I had prior to the Great Recession [laid off in mid-2009,] my salary has only gone up around 16%. Left private sector and moved into government, and then non-profit. Feel fortunate that my salary has gone up at all.

    108. Emily*

      + 64 %

      Still rather low, though. Was WAY underpaid then, but am still underpaid now (should be making ~ 30 % more, but that’s just an estimate).

      On the other hand, I’m not planning to stay in this job more than about 2-3 years longer.

    109. I'm that person*

      +165% (plus better benefits and annual stock grants) got laid off at the end of 2010, changed industries, got really lucky at the end of 2011 when I got recruited for a job that I would never have applied for, and then worked hard to keep that job. Even accounting for inflation I am making far more than I ever thought that I would make.

    110. A Person*

      333% – entry level job to low level director. Included 4 job searches / moves, most of them were climbing up the ladder.

      1. A Person*

        Oh and salaries in my field have also exploded this decade, so even at the entry levels I’d say things are up 50-60%.

    112. Miranda Wiggelsworth*

      ~75%, but that doesn’t show a much larger increase in buying power, as I moved from a high cost of living area to a lower cost of living area.

    113. Orange You Glad*

      ~53% I had just started my career mid-2009 and recession pay has been hard to bounce back from

    114. Jackers*

      In last 10 years, 208%. 225 if you factor in bonus potentials. And for funzies, 440% over past 20 years.

    115. Anona*

      +83% (from ~$32k to ~$59k).

      Full disclosure, in 2008 I had been making $39k, so if you compare it to that, it’s a 51% increase.

    116. Elitist Semicolon*

      +20%, but that’s only because I switched from a position with a 9-month workload/contract to a 12-month position.

    117. Glen*

      I was a stay at home parent at the beginning of 2010, because my wife made significantly more than me in less hours (nurse) and every dollar I earned would have been in the next tax bracket. With the cost of daycare and a second car I would have been paying about $300 a month to work, because twins…
      I did some gig stuff that added up to about $3000 a year, so I’m making thousands of percent more income now than I did then.
      I wouldn’t have traded the time I had with my daughters for the money I’m making now.

    118. lemon*

      About 205%, but mostly because I switched fields from customer service to website-related things.

    119. Indy Dem*

      What a great question. For me, I’m at 166% since 2010, but that’s not the whole story as I was at a non-profit, with no cost of living raises except once in 11 years. New job has better salary, better benefits (including a 401K contribution of up to 9% of salary – old job gave none), and a much better work environment. So it feels more like 1660%!

    120. LizIndeed*

      501%

      I was in college making minimum wage (around $8.50 which I know is high for the U.S. at the time) at a part time boutique. Aaaaand I realized I just calculated that salary based on full time hours, which I definitely didn’t work. I imagine in that case my increase might be more in the thousands. O_o Wow I didn’t think about this until now… crazy!

    121. Red5*

      ~67% increase since the beginning of 2010. Thanks for this question; it was fun to do the math and see how far it’s come.

    122. Eyes Wide Shut*

      I’ve been with the same company for 10 years, though my role has evolved over time and it wasn’t a straight trajectory. But, currently, I make 40% more than I did in 2010.

      1. LizzE*

        I forgot to add context: I was making an hourly wage of $17/hour, working 20 hours a week, in 2010.

    125. nonprofit director*

      My salary is exactly the same. I lost my consulting job in early 2011. I was not able to get back into the same field and ended up at a non-profit organization, where it took a few years to progress in terms of responsibility and pay. Benefits at the non-profit organization are much better, though, including a higher 401k match as well as a generous contribution to a health savings account, so total my compensation package is 13% higher.

    129. corporate engineering layoff woo*

      Technically, 0%. Didn’t work in 2010 (still in school) and haven’t found a new position for 2020, yet. So 0->0 is more zero.

    130. DrRat*

      About 150%. I changed careers and initially took a huge pay cut but have made up for it the past few years. However, I also went from exempt to non exempt, so say hello to paid overtime and goodbye to excessive work hours with no extra pay. Overtime? Sure! Hand me that time and a half! However, pay doesn’t tell the whole story as I also now work full time remote so have a lot less in the way of expenses (and stress). I also get crazy PTO now. Job in 2010 was 15 paid days off and I think 6 holidays; current job is 24 days off and 8 holidays.

    131. Nonny*

      1111% I was just doing part time work in college at the time, now I have full time work.

      Honestly moving from my job last year to this one was a huge portion of that (salary went up almost 200%).

    132. apple*

      522%. I went from a nursing assistant in a low cost of living part of the country to Nurse Manager in a major metro in a high cost of living state. In the next 10 years, I don’t expect that rate of increase though! XD

    133. OccassionallyEngineer*

      I was a student in 2010, but from when I started my first real job in 2012 I have gone up ~ 68% on base salary if you include expected bonuses then I am up about 92%. This is over the course of 3 provinces and moving from an extremely rural area to downtown Toronto. I am in mining so I was living in the middle of nowhere and making decent $ for a brand new grad and now live in one of the highest COL areas in Canada but I have a decent salary to make up for it. I also managed to negotiate a 20% for myself about 3 months ago so that was huge morale booster.

    134. Stornry*

      about 10%. But then, I’m in the same government position/title/level I’ve had since 2000 (though in a different department). I was at the top of the pay scale by 2010 just as I am now. I have no complaints; I’ve been able to buy a house on my own as well as a newer car, so I’m good. And I will happily retire in a couple of years with a not large but comfortable pension.

    135. LQ*

      This is a really interesting question.
      Mine is up 43% (soon to be 48%). I took a big hit in 2011 when I was laid off and took a nearly 40% pay cut. It was a few years to claw my way back to level, and I’ve been ticking up since then at the same place. I’ve moved from individual contributor to senior manager in that time.

    136. NaoNao*

      240%. In early 2010 I had my BA but had just left my MA work (and would never return, as it turns out) for a full time job making 9$ hour plus commission. That’s 18k a year—before taxes. My rent was $450 a month and I would up leaving half way through 2010 to live with mom and help her clean out and update a previously child-occupied bedroom; and then found a job paying double that overseas, which lead to my career. I got really, really lucky in 2010 even though in January it didn’t feel like it!

    137. Chaordic One*

      +65%
      Now I’m back to where I was before the Great Recession. I sort of feel like the 2010s were a lost decade for me.

    138. Lilysparrow*

      Personally, infinity percent as I was SAHM at the time.
      Household income has changed around a lot, as we both went through job changes FT, PT, freelance.
      Overall we’re sitting now at 80% up from the beginning of 2011, which is the closest I can find handy. It’s been a bit higher and a bit lower than that in the meantime.

    139. Jemima Bond*

      Goodness me! You all seem to be doing so well! I went back and did the maths and prepare to be dazzled, folks.
      Context: I am a uk civil servant (government worker).
      Including the pay rise resulting from one promotion about a year ago, my pay now is about 21% higher than it was ten years ago. Before the promotion, so over the preceding 9 years, the uplift was 6%. Which is probably behind inflation! I checked year on year and my pay rose by 0% for two years and 1% or less for about five. I did a spreadsheet! I’m going on annual gross salary so not accounting for increased pension contributions. Also government work so no bonuses or monetary benefits beyond annual/sick leave.
      Lest you should all think I’m rubbish: in govt (certainly U.K.) you can’t negotiate a pay rise yourself within the role, you just get what everyone in your department gets (or doesn’t!) for the year. Which must be negotiated with the government, who are voted in by the people, who don’t see why civil servants should be paid decent money out of their taxes (that’s also why my pension contributions have gone up) But I assure you that what I do is not some superfluous bureaucracy but something that every one of you I hope would deem to be extremely important.

      Fortunately for society I enjoy my job and while I’ll never be rich, I’m ok, and I’ll always be a superhero!

    142. SoCal Kate*

      Down 4.6% if I just look at hourly rate, but my take home pay is down 18% per year because I work 36 hours a week instead of 40.

      I was hit really hard by the recession, and was unemployed for years.

  4. Anon4this*

    What has a workplace done that has made you rethink whether you wish to remain with them; either for the long haul or short term?

    Some of the reorganization ideas that are being floated make me leery about how successful we’re going to be.

    1. Bilateralrope*

      I work as a security guard at a clients site. All guards have to go through a background check done by the client before being allowed on this site. We dont get told anything about the check beyond if someone passed or failed.

      Several months ago, the client suddenly kicked out one of the guards. I’ve been doing 60 hour weeks since then because all the replacements my employer puts forward are failing the background check.

      Until that happens, I’m stuck on this site. My career development is stalled. Unless I get a job elsewhere.

      I’m looking forward to the face of my supervisor when I give notice.

    3. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

      Ever changing deadlines. Everything is always due yesterday which is starting to burn out new hires

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I have mentioned that I am about to be transferred to a new department, which has nothing to do with my current work. I get on ok with the soon to be new boss, but only time will tell if things work out ok.

        Also, my company is paying for training for me, so if I should leave, then I will have to reimburse them. I am making sure I have the cash to be on the safe side.

        1. Sam Buca*

          The way I read this, you’re being transferred (not that you applied for the new gig), and they want you to potentially repay them for the training they are making you take? That seems out of whack.

          1. Chocolate Teapot*

            Not quite. I am being moved from my current team into another one. I will still be doing my same role, but with a new boss who has no idea about it, and co-workers who don’t do anything related to my work.

            If everything goes horribly wrong and I need to get a new job, then I would have to reimburse the company for the training. It was my idea to take the training as it would be beneficial to the work I do, and it took a bit of toing and froing to get said training approved and paid for.

            1. Cats and Dogs*

              You should stipulate a short time line in which you’d have to pay them back. For example after a year would be ridiculous

      2. akiwiinlondon*

        +1
        an old job used to tout the benefit of a lack of layers to senior management – if the company is big enough this isn’t a good thing, it means there is a lack of opportunity for advancement unless there is high turnover in senior roles (which would be another problem).

        It can be good in a small company if you do actually get face time with those senior leaders and create new opportunities for your development – but a big company that’s flat, those people are too busy for you.

    5. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Where ideas are implemented, but not given time to take root before deciding they were a success or failure.
      Recent (anecdotal, coz it was in a different building to me) example – Manager implemented a project to reduce ticket volume by changing the triage process. Manager told everyone up and down the chain (all the way to CEO) that due to the cyclical nature of some tickets, progress (or otherwise) could only be shown after six months. December was month 6. Manager had been let go in October because “it doesn’t look like it’s working”

      (note – this is probably the seventh? such project start and fallout I’ve witnessed in the last five or six years. My department keeps getting overlooked when it comes to “improvement projects” so I’ve been unaffected so far. As long as the company is financially stable, so is my job, so I’m not actively looking. Yet.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Keep your resume up to date just in case. Your C-level sounds impulsive, and that’s rarely good for business.

    6. Anony Shark*

      Lack of appreciation and overly harsh or vague criticisms. I work hard and it’s incredibly disheartening when my good results are totally ignored….but if I make a mistake the proverbial hits the fan.

      Now I make a point of saying thank you for specific things to my direct reports. It seems like a small thing but I believe it makes a huge difference to morale.

    7. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I was part time and couldn’t complete my work in the time, so asked to add a day a week to match capacity-demand to -supply. I was firmly told the c-suite had rejected my request as having no business case. I realised I had been mom-tracked, and that realisation was made concrete by their handling of my hospitalisation for miscarriage very shortly afterwards.

      I had been warned six years before that they didn’t support mothers at all well, but I hadn’t believed it. I should have been more observant. They did it to *everyone*.

    8. Cleopatra*

      – Lack of work to do (the proof is that I have been surfing on AAM for an hour and a half). I don’t even know why they opened my current position a year ago (!)
      – Company’s culture. I never felt at home here. At the beginning, I thought it was just the transition. But today I know that it is NOT the transition, and that the culture here is not a fit for me
      – Sneaky colleagues (and excrutiatingly boring). This alone would not have pushed me to seek other opportunities, should the first two points above not happen
      – Lack of communication with management and coworkers
      – I was told certain things in the job interview last year (such as possibilities to work from aborad etc.), which, of course, I discovered to be untrue

      I started looking for a new job a month ago, and I found one :) I will be resigning by mid January.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Good for you! Congratulations! I too left a job last year after 17 long, excruciating months of having very little to do on a regular basis – I have no earthly clue why they hired me, but it was a waste of time for all of us. I landed somewhere much better in May of ‘19, and I actually have just the right amount of work to do most days – a far cry from any of my previous roles (most of my positions, I was overworked and underpaid).

      2. Laney Boggs*

        This!! I’m so bored. I think if they implemented any *smart* changes they could halve my department. Training was nonexistent.
        I’m 6 months here this month, and over a year with the company, so I’m starting a job search soon.

    9. Also anoning*

      Made me rethink in a good way.

      When I had a non-work related injury that meant I couldn’t work for two months, they gave me 100% paid medical leave, even though I did not have that as a benefit.

      That’s how you get a loyal employee.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        That’s awesome. I wouldn’t leave a company like that unless they were about to go bankrupt or were engaging in illegal activities.

    10. Lena Clare*

      High staff turnover, limit pay raises (if any), ridiculous “we are family” and “you’re expected to volunteer extra hours” culture, and refusal to fire poor performers or bullies.

    11. AL (the other one)*

      That sounds familiar, my company is making some weird changes at the moment.
      We’re currently is the phase of extreme cost cutting in order to fund new tech changes but it has gone to such an extreme that it’s really having a lot of negative impact both physically (we’re joking about whether there’ll be toilet rolls next week) and mentally (fear of failure stifling new growth opportunity).

      Feels like it’s gone too far this time round…

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Headcount reduction by attrition not by logic, so overwhelmed departments get worse. Especially when this is combined with low raises for staff and high bonuses for executives.
      Eliminated long-standing work from home policies instead of defining what it means to do it right & managing the few groups & individuals who were abusing it.
      Gung-ho application of new management trends to a point that it interferes with actual deliverables…. then dropped quietly, wait 6 months, repeat. And again.
      Cutting headcount in one place, assigning the work to another place that ALSO got cut, but still holding them to turnaround times for their lower workload & higher staffing level. Giving the group no authority to rearrange deliverables or turn down projects, and no acceptance of errors & quality reduction due to the above.
      Changing benefits with contradictory rollout info and the published help desk hasn’t been told yet that anything is changing.

    13. girl friday*

      The company I recently left had a president ousted, still hasn’t got a new one, rumors flying that they’ll be in the red by next year, rumors flying that they have to borrow to make payroll, departmental budgets being cut, rumors they’re being taken over by a competitor, a canceled major construction project (that no one was allowed to talk about), a very potentially disruptive major construction project that is allegedly still happening but has been mysteriously held up for months, and they also can’t seem to keep anyone on as janitors.

      After 2 years of this with no lights at the end of the tunnel, I couldn’t take it any more.

    14. Internal combustion llamas and accessories*

      We were acquired by another larger (although not that much larger) company in a similar but not quite the same field. Since the teapot and llama thing has been done to death, let’s say the new company produces jet engines and our company produces motorcycle and lawnmower engines. Similar concept, internal combustion engines, but the supply chains are different, the expertise is different, the staffing levels are different, etc.

      Since the acquisition, the jet engine company has gotten rid of almost all the senior leadership from our small engine division and tried to integrate us fully into the company, but the new company doesn’t really have anybody who knows how to operate the small engine department, and it’s been hectic. There’s been lots of promotion opportunity for lots of people, but it’s been a couple of years and still isn’t smooth.

      I’ve ridden it out so far, but something more stable would be nice.

      Not to mention, my new boss gets salty if I don’t check email during PTO and on weekends (and not critical items, just run of the mill communication), and doesn’t like if we use all 4 weeks of our PTO, while my old boss had a pretty healthy respect for work/life balance and encouraged everybody to use all their vacation. I used to only take 2-3 weeks of PTO, but now I make sure to use every single hour of it.

    15. CL Cox*

      I have a new boss who is a micromanager. I would probably be fine with it, but they have too many balls in the air and things are getting dropped. They used to be in the same role at a different location, but it’s been several years since then and things (especially financials) are handled very differently now. It’s falling on me to try to explain to them why something they want to do isn’t allowed any more. And then they want me to verify that information with someone else. I also have to run any site-wide communications by them before sending out, and they are not great about responding to emails, so things aren’t going out that staff needs to know about (pre-holiday deadlines, new reibursement rules, etc.) It’s taking several extra steps to get my job done. I have discovered I much prefer to work for someone who lets me handle all the administrative stuff and trusts me to inform them when they need to know something. I’ve been doing this work for 35+ years now, and I’m good at it, I really want to be respected for my knowledge and skills.

    16. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      A toxic manager and a power structure that won’t deal with it, adding more and more work while taking away resources and not adding to salary or authority, and a better job falling in my lap.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Odd, but I can’t think of too many places where I wished I had stayed because of the changes in the place. I think that is because the changes were too little, too late? Not sure.

      I do know that of the places I stayed at for long periods of time, the changes over that approximate 10 years were such that my job changed radically. It was no where near what it was when I first started the job. I think what helped me out the door was that it just plain took too long to make changes, even urgently needed changes.

      At my current job, it’s just me and my boss. She allows me lots of space for implementing my own ideas. We talk it over, of course, and she makes the final tweaks before the idea goes live. So my problem here is just having the time to get the change up and running.

    18. The Rat-Catcher*

      My department is also undergoing a reorg…maybe. The reorg will impact almost everything about my job and our director just left, meaning the conversation might have to start all over again. I’m definitely looking at other options more than ever.

    19. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      – Cut competitive benefits that attracted me in the first place
      – Constantly reorganized my group (6 or 7 times in 4 years)
      – Put pressure on us to find more work without helping us do so
      – Lost star players who would have been amazing mentors

      1. Automated*

        Yes to number 1. That happened to me at one org. I took a 5% pay cut because the “total compensation” package was great. Three of the amazing benefits that attracted me was an onsite massage therapist, a free personal trainer, and a staff of nutritionist for employees and their families.

        That all got cut the first week I started.

        Even then i probably would have stayed, but they negotiated my salary down 5% citing these benefits and you know they knew they were cutting them.

        I saw that as operating in bad faith and left.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I don’t blame you – they did, and I can only imagine what other shady stuff they would have also tried to pull on you if you hadn’t left.

    20. Anon for this comment*

      I really like 95% of the large firm of people I work with, so if it was just the team it would be really great and if some of these folks were in management it would be better too. Things they have done that have de-motivated me though are favouritism, vague guidance ‘why can’t you just do this?’ paired with ‘that is not how we do things’ and ‘just figure it out’ paired with ‘we don’t say that or do that or use that tool’ that is changed literally in a month, or as I discovered…we do in fact use that tool and now we do that thing. And turnover that is difficult to manage, as in one role in less than 2 years there have been 4 people in the role – all of whom left after short 3-6 month periods because of the chaotic direction. Remember the post on the daily therapy – it’s not like that, but there is an unwritten rule that if you don’t state, when asked, that you are happy and positive…you are ‘clearly a problem.’ Sorry, but I am glad it is Friday as I need a couple of days off.

    22. hbc*

      A general rewarding of assertive and confident people over those who were right. Lots of disfunction before that, but the tipping point was realizing that people who were confidant and wrong (“We purchased what we were supposed to, the internal sales team didn’t send it out”) were getting promoted while the people who were nuanced and thoughtful (“Our procedure is to ship those when they arrive, but let me check what happened with that order”) were getting pushed down or aside.

      There were really good intentions at the top level, but those good intentions led them to believe things they shouldn’t have believed. Couldn’t get out of there fast enough as the blame started flying.

    23. WineNot*

      Everyone at my job complains. All the time. When I ask how someone’s doing in the morning, multiple people say anything from “Well, I’m here aren’t I?” to “At least I’m not 6 feet under…yet”. The people I work with all live to work and I just can’t stand the negative mentality around the office. They are all very nice but I don’t want to be sitting here in 30 years with 10 vacation days (another thing that tells me I’m in this short term) complaining about how terrible life is.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Do you work at my last job? Seriously – my boss and her right hand used to do this, and complain about their actual assignments, all day long. It was highly annoying especially since I came from a much higher-stress, faster paced environment prior to that one, and I couldn’t understand why the hell they were always working so late and so hard to do very simple stuff.

    24. Professional Merchandiser*

      Same company. I ended the year with 22 hours PTO on the books, and it’s…gone. They have always had a policy of use it or lose it, but I was assured by my supervisor that the “unwritten” policy was that you could carry over 40 hours, but that you wouldn’t accrue any more while it was in there. I had checked with her in November to see if I needed to burn this time and she told me this. When I was part-time and not getting holiday pay I would save some of my PTO for holidays, but I was reinstated to full-time in October so didn’t need to use it for that.
      I don’t blame her, she had checked with HR and that’s what she was told. But if they don’t make this whole, I may leave. Lesson learned: don’t trust unwritten policies.

      1. Not a cat*

        This! I was with a company that was looking for PE. So, they zero’d out all the PTO because it made the books look better. (I had 30 days) I am in Cali and this is illegal (considered earned income). When I complained, I was told that “accounting was tracking it…” A month later, when I left, I was not paid for my PTO (also illegal in California).

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Looking for PE = Trying to reduce their stock price/earnings ratio?

          Or something else?

        2. DrRat*

          I hope you are fighting this. In CA, they will be ordered to pay you for that PTO – and that’s 6 weeks salary!

      2. WineNot*

        Ugh that is so frustrating! With something as precious as vacation days, I’m sure you would have planned things differently had you known it wasn’t going to happen.

      3. Diahann Carroll*

        I’m watching my vacation bank at my new job very closely since this is my fear (even though our rollover policy is actually written) – I will be deeply upset to lose my remaining five days from 2019 (though I’m pretty sure my manager would just let me take them anyway since the days would be paid out whether I’m working or out on leave).

    25. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Reorganizing the company structure annually.

      It’s good to shake things up every now and then and rethink structures, but the annual shuffling of managers, departments, reporting chains, and clustering wound up creating a lot of confusion and messing up opportunities for advancement.

    26. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

      I worked as an admin assistant at a financial firm, which mainly did retirement planning. A big philosophy there was that we were helping families achieve financial goals. Cool, whatever.

      We were asked to give our boss a family picture ahead of our team retreat. I’m single with no children so I submitted a picture of me, my parents, siblings and nieces/nephews and forgot about it.

      At the retreat, there was a slideshow of everyone’s pics and afterwards my boss said, “I showed you this altogether so you would remember why you come to work everyday.” I was the only single, childless team member and obviously what Boss said didn’t apply to me. I totally felt Other after that.

      1. StellaBella*

        Oooof, I am so sorry. That is terrible. As a child-free person who is also single, this would hurt. Big hugs of you want them.

    27. Leela*

      I haven’t read the comments so sorry if this is a repeat, but policies handed down that really harm your team with no right to talk it over or push back against it, from people who don’t understand the impact of the decisions they’re making.

      Having what I’m being told I have to do and what I’m being incentivized to do be massively out of sync.

    28. Amber Rose*

      On the flip side, a bunch of recent reorg at my company has made me reconsider wanting to leave. They fired a bunch of useless management types and are setting financial goals to keep us afloat if we hit rough times.

      Previously, the handling of a scandal involving a large amount of money had me considering fleeing for the hills, and prior to that, being lectured for wanting to use my sick days to cover a surgery. :/

      1. Dancing Otter*

        What, you’re supposed to take your laptop into the operating room with you?
        Trust me, the work I tried to do while on hydrocodone after surgery was /not/ well done. Retrograde motion, if anything.

    29. DiscoUkraine!*

      I currently work in healthcare. My workplace recently changed HR Solution vendors (apparently the Three Letter vendor that also now does our payroll was cheaper) and terminated our health insurance (named after a color) in favor of two mediocre choices – one being a “Klosed system” and another one that actually lets you keep going to your existing providers, but pay more to do so.

      All this to say – the last time I saw this exact scenario go down, I worked in subprime mortgage. The C level went on and on about how well the company was doing and how much money they’d made with their “strategic cost-saving moves”.

      The mass layoffs started about 8 months later, the same day all the copiers and fax machines were repo’d.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Three Letter Payroll Vendor is the absolute WORST. The last place I worked that used them, about three times a year, everyone’s paychecks would be Mysteriously Wrong (in the company’s favor, of course) so you had to watch them like a hawk or you’d just be out hundreds of dollars.

    30. Cap. Marvel*

      I’m seriously considering leaving once we move buildings. Our CEO wants us to transition from almost everyone having a private office to an open concept space to encourage “more employee interaction.” I’m not completely convinced that will work (given the culture we have now) and honestly not excited about having even less privacy than I do now.
      But I like my team well enough so maybe I’ll see if I can live with it.

      1. corporate engineering layoff woo*

        The metric said it works! Look at all this interaction*!

        *the interaction is naturally, physically unavoidable and is certainly hurting productivity >.>

    31. Llama Wrangler*

      This just happened, so I’m waiting to see how it all shakes out, but I helped write a grant for our understaffed team for 50% of a position, and when we got the grant, the big boss decided instead to use the money to fund a current position (reallocating the money that was currently funding the position to other teams) and ask current employees to take on the new projects.

      Big boss doesn’t seem to think this is worthy of comment but I’m not willing to work long term at a place that (a) chronically under-staffs my area of work and (b) doesn’t think anything of this kind of funding bait and switch.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        I used to do accounting for Grants & Contracts. That may violate the terms of the grant. I know you helped write the grant proposal, but have you read the fine print of the final version?

      2. Red Fraggle*

        Uhhhh, yeah, no, that does not bode well. In my experience, grants that cover salary funding at all generally have pretty clear language about that money supporting a NEW hire or a CURRENT position.

        Your only hope is that this grant somehow magically doesn’t require a final report documenting how the money was spent. If there needs to be a report, then the next thing big boss is going to do is falsify documents and/or the grant organization is going to come after y’all hard. (And I suspect big boss will throw underlings under the nearest convenient bus.) I hope you escape!

    32. Anon For This*

      My department had one floor of single offices out of a 3 or 4 floor building. Everyone had a master key to the floor so they could get into their office, the copy room, the room the printer was in, the conference room, the classroom, the break room, etc. It also meant you could go into someone else’s office, but why would you? No one reported that this ever happened.

      I started with 2 others. The new department head didn’t like the idea of the master key, so he wouldn’t let us new people have them, but he didn’t get rid of them either. So I could open my office but couldn’t get in to any of the other rooms I needed to do my job. There were students working on the floor who had the key, but the new professors didn’t! I had to make a big stink to get multiple keys, but even then he wouldn’t give me all the ones I needed.

      This was just the beginning of the ridiculous stuff by this guy. Another example: I had a PhD class that met once a week and had 3 students. One had a long commute, so she asked if we could move the class to another day. The 2nd student said that was better for her too. It was also better for me, since I had a long late night class and then this class early the next morning, but I don’t think I told them that. The 3rd student said he didn’t care, and I asked him alone in case he was uncomfortable saying he didn’t want to. The department chair wouldn’t let me move it. He said the 3rd student didn’t want to, but I later found out that was a lie.

      1. Anon For This*

        To clarify: People did sometimes go into each other’s offices, with permission, to drop something off or pick something up. But nobody ever reported anything bad happening.

    33. Arjay*

      Our company announced it was going to recognize MLK day as a company holiday. Then a very large department told its staff that they couldn’t have the holiday off due to workload. There is some validity to this as the workload doesn’t decrease the way it does for, say, Memorial Day, but the optics and the message are just so bad. If we truly value inclusion and diversity, we should put our money where our mouth is.

      1. LizzE*

        Yeah, this is unfortunately common where I work. Our current CEO started 2 years ago and advocated a new policy to close the office during winter break — we “closed” December 23-January 1 this past holiday season. But, the problem is that finance, IT, administration (particularly the facilities manager and the receptionist) and members of our fundraising team can’t take off during this time because our company is in philanthropic services, and donors are notorious for feeling charitable the last quarter of the year (especially Christmas and New Year’s). So basically, 1/3 of staff have to come in during even though the office is declared “closed” for business.

    34. Moth*

      At a company-wide meeting about a year ago, the CEO stood on stage and said how proud he was of the company that the strategic plan we had set the quarter before was still the current strategic plan. Not realistic proud that changes were being made to the culture of impulsivity, but sincerely proud that three months of not changing direction was a big accomplishment, right?! Needless to say, a year out, none of that strategic plan exists anymore. I’ve tried to write a 5-year plan for the team I lead and I always get a lot of support from management on doing that, but zero support on executing it. The lack of clear direction or consistency is exhausting.

    35. Zephy*

      I was only at this job for about 6 weeks, but something that gave me pause right away was how the owner chose to handle the weekly schedule. She would send it out on Friday afternoons, for a schedule that ran Saturday to the following Friday. The Saturday shift was a half-day and only two people had any given Saturday scheduled, and to avoid overtime the people scheduled for Saturday would come in late and work a half-day at some other point in the following week, which was also never consistent. Making weekend plans or doctor’s appointments was tricky, because I wouldn’t know until 3 PM Friday if I was available before 1 PM the following day, or which morning I would have off the following week, if any. The only consistent thing was that the office was closed on Sundays.

      I asked if there was any sort of pattern, like do Jane and Sally generally get the first and third Saturdays and Tangerina and Nanette get the second and fourth, or if it was possible to have a preferred morning off. Nobody could give me a straight answer. That really should have been my first clue that it was a bad fit, because it turned out nobody could give me a straight answer about anything – general workflow, where can I find X, what is the procedure for Y, all (IMO) reasonable questions for a new hire to ask. I would think I understood something, and then the next time I tried to do a thing, either I’d be wrong or it would be a special case.

    37. Mama Bear*

      Merger with a company where the policies were very different.
      Changing management without being transparent about it. Choosing a manager that was a poor fit for the team.
      Firing people unexpectedly or in a way that made everyone else feel like there was a Sword of Damocles over their heads.
      Consistently doing more with less (materials and people).
      Not offer room for advancement/career growth.

    38. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      1. I have two bosses
      2. They are married to each other
      3. One of them refuses to complete performance reviews for me (because, as I have found out, HR does not know that I am split between the two bosses)
      …among a myriad of other concerns (cries in academia).

    39. Snarkononymous*

      New CEO decided to make her mark so we:

      Spent tens of thousands of dollars on new software that didn’t meet our needs. Turned into a meat grinder for front line staff who were leaving in droves over the stress of not being able to help customers, which was their entire job. We have since spent tens of thousands of dollars to customize the new software to our needs. After 3 years and literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in programming and training, we are ‘celebrating’ that it now is almost on par with the old software.

      Ditto with meeting with big donors. New CEO was so off-putting donations dropped by 50% in her first year. We are, again, celebrating that after 3 years we have crawled but to almost the donation level where we were when she started. To wit: We’re celebrating a 90% increase in level of donations since the end of her first year with us. No one is allowed to mention the fact we’re still lower than before she was hired. The few people who have pointed it out have all been let go within a month or so of speaking out about it.

      Lastly, CEO imparts that we must cut back expenses, find savings everywhere, etc. Department managers are fired for failing to find enough savings in their areas. Like, how much can we actually cut back on toilet paper costs before customers complain about the lack of it? Seriously. In the midst of this, the CEO authorizes budget overages to put $10K in new furniture into her office and an additional $250K in objets d’art. So, we have no money, everything has to be trimmed to the bone, but then we have all this extra money for decorations? This came out in the same week as the announcement that there was no money for raises or staff bonuses, unlike the prior 20 years.

      The CEO, CFO, Board Chair, and the Controller are all long time personal friends (for decades), so there’s no oversight. All of the people above are now pushing for staff to under go ‘Integrity Training’ because they feel the culture problems are due to low level staff failing to do their work ‘with integrity’. Yeah, sure, you first.

      Up until this CEO, I would have planned to work here for a very long time. Now, nope. Just nope.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I worked at a law firm that did something very similar – claimed there was no money to give us raises (and we were working 60-80 weeks as non-attorney staff for years, not months or weeks), but then had our building renovated. So we were basically less important than new carpet – got it. I was gone seven months after reno began on my floor.

        3. DrRat*

          I remember a Dave Barry book where he mentioned that a Miami city commissioner spent over $110,000 redecorating her office on the taxpayer’s dime – and I think that was back in the 1980’s. Her comment to the reporter who checked on the story was, “There’s not one item that really stands out. It’s not the Taj Mahal.”

    40. Heat's Kitchen*

      Lack of a clear vision.
      Multiple sales (4 different owners in one year).
      Realizing they play favorites with promotions (not necessarily the best person for the job).

    41. Free Meercats*

      This was in the early 90s, when cell phones were rare and expensive. I worked for a county, mostly alone, out in the field, sometimes in remote areas. I suggested that I have some sort of communication device; like a radio that would use the system the rest of Public Works used, but was told it “wasn’t in the budget or necessary for my job, I should just find a pay phone.” Mentioning that there were no pay phones in the woods got no traction.

      Then one day, the predicted light snow showers ended up being 2 feet of heavy, wet snow. I was out in a river valley, driving a full-size, crew cab, long bed 2-wheel drive pickup truck with highway tires. It started snowing about 3 PM, so I bugged out, got stuck multiple times, and it took me until midnight to get back to the office. Once I got out of the valley and on the road, there was no way I was going to try to find a pay phone and get stuck again. Of course, by that time, my wife was in panic mode and the only phone numbers she had were the office and the Director, so she called him about 10. He called my boss, who had no idea where I was. When I got back to the office, I called my wife, then my boss, then made my way home; got there about 2AM.

      The next day, when he finally made it in, my boss wrote me up for failing to let them know where I was and putting in 8 hours of unapproved overtime. I was gone within 6 months to the job I’m still in.

    42. Anon for this*

      – We are moving in the Spring and have yet to decide where. One choice would add 20 minutes to an already :45 – 1:15 commute, that I really cannot handle.
      – Attributing success to departments that had nothing to do with the success because that person works closely with the CEO (they really have blinders on sometimes)
      – No retirement, stock options, or really anything other than health insurance (which is great)
      – Same annual bonuses for everyone
      – No really strategy, direction, or acknowledgement from the CEO when we succeed. There is no accountability from the top.
      – Very poor maternity/paternity leave policy. I don’t think I can handle having another child here.

      That being said, I do like a lot of things about this job – I’m basically given free reign and I love my immediate boss. I just think I’ll outgrow this within the year (but I want to finish a few major initiatives first).

    43. Drax*

      Main things for me have been two things

      1.we went through a major warehouse transition in less then two weeks due to circumstances out of our control. it was fine and dandy, I had no issues stepping in UNTIL my boss said “this is why we hired you, with your operations experience”. Um. I took a major pay cut for an entry level job in a completely different industry

      2. all of my bosses keep joking how I’ve been here for years and how I’m part of the family. I can’t explain why that just turned me off this company completely, but it did. I’ve worked here for 4 months.

      They also concealed a ton of turnover from us. They said it was a growth period, always been a small team everyone’s been here for years. Well, the forgot to mention that pretty much every other person hired in the last two years has left – and we’re talking 12+ people.

      1. Drax*

        sorry to clarify – I made a career switch out of Ops into data entry job (so not Ops related at all)

    44. Cartographical*

      Personal, indicating systemic issues: Hired a manager’s child-in-law over me bc “they’ll work better together bc they’re family”. (Me: Casual job search activated.)

      Systemic, creating personal issues: Bought out a major competitor in a region with a very different internal (and external) culture* and supported “merging work cultures” to accommodate the new group — to the detriment of the progressive work culture previously in place. *e.g. disapproving of “religious indicators” (hijab/turbans/kippah/etc.) in the workplace, monolingual, “traditional” (read: not queer/trans-friendly) values, minimal work/life balance… the cherry on top: high value on “aggressive” (synonymous with “male”) interaction which promptly degraded previously excellent working relationships with outside agencies. (Me: Immediate exit plan activated.)

    45. not saying*

      I left a job about a month ago. There were a few major factors –
      1 – The program I had previously worked in was terminated for budgetary reasons, and I was transferred to a different program, which I’d “helped out” before part-time; the program I was transferred to served a different population of clients with which I am not as experienced/skilled at serving as the first program.

      2 – Upper leadership changed. Our much beloved executive director retired, and we got a new executive director as well as a new person in a director position which had been vacant for the previous year. Both seemed more interested in the bottom line than safety of staff and clients, quality of services, and how thinly you can stretch your staff before they start resigning en masse. (Did I mention this was in social services/special education.) They accepted several very high-need clients at a time when we were already understaffed and had a number of brand new staff, and then seemed to lay the blame on the staff on the ground when that didn’t go well.

      so yeah, there was a mass exodus. It sucked, because there were things about that job and that workplace that I really loved, but the new program honestly would never have been a good fit for me, and we just didn’t have the support we needed from above.

    46. Middle Manager*

      Echoing some of the above
      -Constant cycles of strategic plans that are never seen through when senior management staff changes
      -Reorg plans that inevitably fall through part way and leave the org chart an unmitigated disaster
      -Avoidance rather than addressing problem employees (no accountability/micromanaging everyone down to the lowest common denominator of bad employee who should be fired)

      Sadly, I’m still here, but it’s become increasingly clear to me that we’re not going to fix these problems and I should get out. I’m actively looking.

    47. De Minimis*

      At my current job it’s obvious to me that they probably don’t need both my job and my manager’s job [currently vacant but about to be filled.] My job is newly created and I don’t think there was a real plan for how I was ultimately going to fit. A lot of it seems based on expansion plans that have stalled, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not. Things have been good these last few months as far as being able to get things done and feeling utilized at work, only because I’ve been doing a lot of the work that my manager was doing [she was fired about six months after I started, I’ve posted a bit about that in some of the open threads.] I’m waiting to see what happens with the new manager, but have applied to a job that I think would be great for me and am looking at other opportunities. I’d originally planned on staying long term, now I’m not even sure I’ll make it a year.

    48. Piano Girl*

      My old workplace made a big deal about how they were going to upgrade the office – new paint, $55k in new carpeting, a full lobby re-design. We just had to move offices into a smaller space. After all the renovations, which only affected those in the bigger offices, we were told they had run out of budget to paint the rest of the offices (including mine). Thank heavens they had enough money to buy useless decorations for the lobby and WAY too many pictures of completed projects! That was shortly followed by a 1% raise and more defaulting on promises they had made. Not long afterwards, I was laid off. My last paycheck shorted me by two days (who works their last day? I did.). Finally they admitted their error and I enjoyed a pretty decent severance package.
      I had loved working there for nine years. Their treatment of me broke my heart.

    49. Lora*

      Seriously, the #1 thing for most jobs that I’ve bailed on: new boss was not great. In a couple of memorable cases, a new boss every few months over multiple years, which was just insane because literally nobody ever really knew what I was doing, what I was supposed to be doing, or whether I was doing it right. A job I stayed at for two years had six bosses in that time. Another where I stayed a year had three bosses and according to my friends who are still there, is still churning through bosses and re-org’ing every few months. One especially awful job had only two bosses in a year, but the second boss was nightmare fuel and resulted in 100% turnover in the department. I do my due diligence, find out who I will be working with and decide whether or not I want to work with that person long term…and then within a ridiculously short time, the company re-orgs or hires someone new or whatever and it’s somehow the absolute polar opposite of the person I liked and wanted to work with. In many cases it’s not even that they wanted a different approach for that role, because they’ll move my now-ex-boss to a similar role in the end, just at a different location or something, and the dude they bring in to replace him is the exact opposite in every meaningful way.

      In CurrentJob, my previous boss had many decades of experience at huge important companies recognized for their quality, and was very hands on, involved every day and checked in frequently, was always available for questions. New boss….well, about once a month he IMs me back, and he doesn’t have much more experience than I do, nearly all of it at CurrentJob.

    50. GS*

      Administratively merged our high-production low-cost long-tenure site (most people had been there 20 years) with a low-production, high-cost, high-turnover site (no one had been there more than 5 years) hoping our site would improve the functioning of the other site. Told to “just sort out” reporting structure, and not given additional support to make up for their nonexistent data management or legal compliance practices. Meanwhile our production targets were doubled, then cut and our budget was zeroed within a production season.

      While my field does involve pivoting relatively fast, I saw a lot of my work discarded repeatedly with little acknowledgement of its worth, then asked to be redone on shorter and shorter timelines while the issues with the other site went unaddressed.

      It’s good that I started job hunting, because I (along with most folks) was laid off 3 months later and was able to walk out of the layoff meeting and accept an offer.

    51. Brownie*

      At a former job: Being told that as an IT jack-of-all-trades if I really wanted to help the startup grow I should be doing the marketing work of finding and investigating places where we could sell our software in addition to my sole-IT person duties. Oh, then there was the 24/365 unpaid on-call work and the no paid overtime holiday work justified by “You’re single and don’t have a family, so it’s fine that you work on Christmas Day when none of our clients are in the office to be impacted.” (I found out after I left how many labor laws that company was breaking. They don’t exist anymore due to their bad management.)

      There’s a form of reorg going on at my current job where management is looking at splitting IT Ops from “we support it all” into software specific Agile/Scrum teams with the software folks. If that happens I’ll be looking for a new job since that means I’m not just on call 24/365 again, but I’ll be pigeonholed in such a way that I’ll have no room to grow my IT skills and will quickly become noncompetitive in the wider job market due to skills obsolescence should I want to leave later on.

    52. Dancing Otter*

      A bounced paycheck. No second chances. If they can’t make payroll, I’m job hunting ASAP. If they don’t cover it within 2 business days, or if they do it twice, I’m quitting for cause and taking it up with unemployment and the department of labor.
      Not being paid is legitimate grounds for quitting, so I believe I would qualify for unemployment benefits. Even if not, how is not getting paid for not working any worse than working and still not getting paid?

    53. Stornry*

      Change in department head. I like the new one so much better than the former – much more comfortable atmosphere and he has demonstrated that he trusts me and my judgement. For that, I’m willing to delay retirement another year until he and other new Administrators come on board so I don’t leave the department without an HR rep. :-)

    54. DrRat*

      Thinking back on companies that I should have fled like a rat from a ship that was not only sinking, but also simultaneously on fire and infected with plague, these are the worst situations:
      1. Management that makes drastic and dreadful changes without consulting the employees who actually do the day to day work. They also do not want to hear any negative comments on their terrible decisions.
      2. A company that makes promises that they never seem to quite follow through on. The day you quit, they are still insisting they will make that promise come true any day now. When you check with your former coworkers five years later, the company is still making the same promises.
      3. A high rate of turnover. As they say, if you can keep your head when all those around you are losing theirs – it’s just possible you don’t understand the situation.
      4. Managers feel free to criticize employees because it’s “feedback” but any constructive feedback from employees to management is considered insubordination.
      5. Nepotism. If there are under 100 employees and anyone in the company is related to anyone else, get the hell out.
      6. No attempt is made to keep excellent employees. All the good people go somewhere else.
      7. Spending priorities are completely skewed (see the decorating examples above.) If the CEO is making a fortune but the employees who hold the place together haven’t gotten a raise in years, bail. Bail now.
      8. Managers who refuse to manage because they hate confrontation.
      9. Companies that don’t know how, when, or who to fire. This can be a company that refuses to fire lazy, abusive employees that everyone hates, or the company that fires excellent people at the drop of the hat on a whim.
      10. When they are cutting employee benefits, polish up your resume. Things will only go downhill from there.
      11. Business practices range from the unethical to the actually illegal.
      12. Much like feces, craziness travels downhill. If the CEO is completely nuts, the rest of the company will be, too.
      13. When different departments in the same company are constantly warring with each other, it’s never a healthy sign.
      14. If your significant other is always saying you should quit, he or she is seeing the dysfunction that you no longer see because you have gotten too used to it.

      I used to consider myself pretty much married to my job – I was totally committed and would put up with a tremendous amount of crap because I’m in this for the long haul, right? Now I consider myself to be in a Tinder relationship with my job – if it works out, great. If it doesn’t work out, I’m not here to fix the broken, and I’m moving on to the next prospect.

    55. Rhymetime*

      I worked in the national headquarters of a nonprofit that had a terrific culture of respect and teamwork with caring and inspiring leadership. When a key leader who had built this successful team over several years left for a different job, the CEO and executive team hired someone who was disrespectful, focused only themself, didn’t solicit feedback or listen to ideas, and didn’t even really understand the organization’s mission. Many of us started talking to each other about looking for other jobs. Because we all had skill sets in fundraising and finance that were in high demand in our region, that’s what we did. I was the first to leave. Within about six months, about half of the staff in the national headquarters had departed.

      There was ultimately a good outcome to all of this. The board of directors noticed how many good employees were leaving. They ended up doing a clean sweep of senior management, including the CEO. They recreated the culture that many of has had been drawn to in the first place, and in fact were able to convince the CFO who had left to return. The place is once again a great place to work. I’m impressed with how the board responded.

    56. MissDisplaced*

      For me currently it’s been the sense of the employer and these open offices + a reduction of the flexibility to work from home.
      Employers KNOW the employees hate open offices and then still force their workers into them anyway. This is pretty much an immediate turnoff for me and makes me start looking elsewhere.

  5. Long break relief*

    General question – is everyone back at work yet? I’m not back until Monday, and it has been such a wonderful break (not in US, min 20 days annual leave + public holidays by law). But boy was it weird to have Christmas on a Wednesday.

    Hope the new year brings exactly what you want / need in your professional lives.

    2. CastIrony*

      One of my jobs has me coming back on the 12th. My other job is one where I’ve had weekend days off, but I’ve been steadily working most days.

    3. Cinnamon*

      I’m back on Monday. The office opened today but I had to change travel plans so I took today and tomorrow off.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We’re all back mostly. A couple took extended holiday pto but most only took a Christmas to NY.

        1. I'm that person*

          I went back yesterday as well but the rest of my group took yesterday and today off so I have been all alone. There are other people on my floor, maybe 10% are here.

    5. Budgie Buddy*

      Back since Dec 26, with Jan 1 off. But I work at a weekly paper so it needs to go out even over the holidays.

    6. NeverNicky*

      I “went back” yesterday (I work from home remotely) but a lot of our organisation and suppliers are out until Monday.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I went back yesterday as well and work remotely, and my manager and counterpart both worked the last two weeks except for the actual holidays (Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and New Years Day).

    7. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Was back at work yesterday, having worked Christmas Eve, and some “cover” work 27th, 30th (half day) and 31st.
      I’m not in a support role, there was no need for me to work. One of the managers just had a hissy fit that work was going to be a week behind when we re-started in January (as it has always been, and has always been accounted for in budgets/Gaant charts etc. for the last decade! Manager has been with us for eight months; I don’t anticipate him being with us in another eight)

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This could also serve as an answer to the previous question about why people decide to leave!

    8. Historic Hamlet Dweller*

      Back yesterday, we basically shut down completely from 25/12 – 2/1, with some frontline cover.

    9. Tyche*

      I’ll be back on Tuesday, because Monday it’s the Ephipany and here in Italy it’s a holiday.
      This year we were very lucky and we closed from the 24th December till the 6th January included :-)
      I needed it!!!

    10. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I have been WFH, just logging on every couple of days to triage the inbox and send out what can’t wait. Typically in pyjamas with an enormous cup of tea!

      1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        Same! Currently in pyjamas with the huge cup of tea, doing inbox triage. Cheers!

    11. Cleopatra*

      I got back yesterday from a wonderful holiday break. And it got me a bit depressed, particularly that my work load is close to zero.

      Thank God I have AAM !!!!!

      Good luck for all those dreading to get back to work. And always remember, that this is just a phase !!! Much more interesting opportunities are waiting for us out there (we just need to go and get them)!

    12. Drew*

      I was supposed to be back yesterday but got very sick this week (aside: DATE YOUR LEFTOVERS) and so I’ll be back on Monday.

      Quite a few of my coworkers took yesterday and today as vacation time, which I am told had the CEO hauling managers into his office to demand to know why so many vacation requests were approved. I have a feeling I’m going to get an earful about my absence on Monday, or at least a demand to know why I didn’t work from home.

    13. Everdene*

      I’m back WFH today, in the office Monday. My laptop isn’t working though so until I manage to speak to someone at head office (no idea who is in. can’t lig in to find out) I am lying on my sofa reading AAM. Or using this quieter period to focus on professional development and keeping abreast of current trends in employment norms.

    14. Discordia Angel Jones*

      My office only closed on 25th, 26th December and 1st Jan.

      I took 27th December as holiday but had to work 30th and 31st. Suuuuuuper quiet. Yesterday and today are less quiet but still quiet.

    15. Susie Q*

      I was off from 20 December to 1 January. About half of my coworkers are back. The other half are starting back on Monday.

      My nice long break reminded that I really wish I could be a SAHM.

    16. OtterB*

      I am not technically back until Monday ( whole office is closed) but went to the office yesterday and will be wfh some of today to catch up on some things I didn’t finish before the break. But I took off completely for a week and a half instead of trying to finish those tasks around family time.

    17. Sc@rlettNZ*

      I don’t go back until Jan 27th (my last day at work for 2019 was Dec 19th. It’s going to be a rude shock lol. (I’m in NZ and taking several weeks of leave is completely normal where I work).

    18. DarthVelma*

      This was the first time that I’ve taken off the time between xmas and new year’s day, and it was wonderful. But it was really hard coming back yesterday. Part of me wishes I had just taken off until next Monday.

      On the bright side, my office is practically empty today. Two folks have morning appointments and are working from home the rest of the day. One person was out sick yesterday and will probably be out today too. So that will leave me and the other introvert in our office as the only ones here. I’m looking forward to a very quiet and very productive day. :-)

    19. What’s with Today, today?*

      We were off Christmas. The office staff was off Christmas Eve and NYD as well, but on air staff was just Christmas.

    20. CL Cox*

      I work in a school. We were off a half-day on the 20th, started back yesterday. It used to be that 12 month staff only got 24th, 25th, 31st, and 1st off, but for the last couple of years they realized that it costs much more to keep the buildings running for only a few people for the other days, so we’ve been getting paid days off.

    21. The Rat-Catcher*

      We are only closed on the holidays themselves, but I took off the entire week of Christmas and it was good for my soul. Will be repeating next year.

    24. Thankful for AAM*

      We had only xmas day and new years day off, closed at 4pm on the day before each one.

    25. PseudoMona*

      I’ll be back on Monday. My company has a shutdown from December 25-31, New Year’s Eve is a company holiday, and I took 2 PTO days for January 2-3. Twelve glorious days of sitting around in my pajamas.

      My biggest challenge on Monday will be to remember my computer login.

    26. CTT*

      I’m a real estate and finance lawyer, so I’ve been back since the 26th (although I did have the 1st off). My 12/31 deals closed smoothly though, so I left at 4 yesterday and am planning on leaving after lunch today.

    27. NJBi*

      I’m back as of yesterday, and WFH on Tuesday. Several people in my office are taking this week off and are back Monday, but with my travel plans I took the week before Christmas instead. The office was closed on Dec 25, 26, 27 and Jan 1, and the rest we are all taking in vacation–at my workplace you accrue just under 2 days per month for 20 total per year. Extremely generous for the USA! (I have twice the vacation time that my partner does, so every holiday he has off that I don’t, I take in vacation. He also had to work remotely for three of the days that we were away in that two-week span.)

    28. Jdc*

      I am loving Christmas on Wednesday as we were able to use minimum vacation days and still have two weeks off. I was sure yesterday was Sunday and had to check my phone repeatedly because I couldn’t comprehend it was Thursday. I am ready to have the kid back at school as they get bored and do their best to drive your crazy. Husband goes back Tuesday and son on Monday.

    29. Quinalla*

      I am back, but I had a week and a half off and it was a lovely break. I’ve been making a point to take real days off where I don’t check email, etc. I tell my boss or whoever is covering for me that they can text or call if it really can’t wait until I’m back and that I am NOT checking emails and it is wonderful!

    30. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yep. I was technically back on Monday, but worked from home. I took all of Christmas week off as well as the Thursday afternoon and Friday before (we got 12/24 and 12/25 off as holidays).

    31. Chronic Overthinker*

      My office was closed for the 24th and 25th with a half-day on the 31st and closed on the 1st. These last two spotty weeks have been weirdly quiet or insanely busy. Most have been the former. I can’t wait for a regular workload again or at least a regular schedule. I’m all out of whack and not performing at peak function.

    32. Adlib*

      Came back yesterday. Weirdly, some people only came in today, including my supervisor. He was marked as out on his calendar, but he’s here.

    33. Jabs*

      Working yesterday and today. Most of my office is gone and its blissfully quiet and disruption free, I love it.

    34. Quill*

      Most of my team is not (my manager dropped in on monday to check on things, I think) but I could only afford to take the 3 days of actual christmas week off because all holidays are unpaid. (I’m a contractor.)

    35. Yorick*

      I was only out Monday through Wednesday last week, and Wednesday this week. Christmas on Wednesday is lame.

    36. Shadowbelle*

      “Back” at work?

      I never left. I stayed to cover the holidays and solve year-end problems for our foreign plants.

    37. kittymommy*

      We were only closed (office only) on 12/25 and 1/1 and then a half day on 12/24. I think my phone has rung a half-dozen times during this period.

    38. Elenna*

      I didn’t have vacation days yet (started too late in the year) so I worked the whole time excluding Dec 25/26 and Jan 1 (Boxing Day is a statutory holiday where I am), but it was mostly working from home doing some documentation of processes. Came back Jan 2 and immediately jumped into busy month-end stuff…

    39. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I’ll come back on Monday, January 6.

      My last day at work during the 2010s was Monday, December 23.

      NB: In my work, coverage isn’t really an issue — we mainly work on our own projects and have our own calendars. And much of our work is dealing with people…many of whom themselves are out this time of year.

    40. Jaid*

      I was in on Monday and Thursday, but took Tuesday off because I had errands to run before everything closed for NYE and took today off because indigestion/insomnia for two nights is bad for my focus on work, such as it is.

    41. De Minimis*

      We came back day after Christmas, though I called out that day. Worked Monday/Tuesday then off again, and now back to the regular schedule until MLK Day. Still have a handful of people who took extended vacation.
      It’s a medical clinic and as far as I can tell it’s been pretty slow for a while now, but I bet we pick up next week.

    42. EJane*

      I got Christmas Day and New Year’s Day off. I’m currently at work. I don’t work retail or food service.

      yayyyyyyyyy

    43. CatMintCat*

      I’m a teacher in Australia, and our summer break ends on 28 January. I’ve actually been on sick leave since early November (all good now) and am more than ready for some structure in my life!

    44. Lavender Menace*

      I go back on Monday. I’m in the U.S., but my job has a generous time off policy and I took three weeks off at the end of the year. I really needed the time – I am terrible at taking time for myself, and I was burning out.

  6. Curious*

    What’s everyone’s take on online exit interviews? Currently helping a friend through one and it seems very impersonal to me… More like it’ll be filled in the circular filing cabinet never to be seen again.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m not a fan of exit interviews in general—online or not. My general feeling is if a workplace is a healthy one (i.e., genuinely open to feedback), you won’t have to wait until you leave to give that feedback. And if it isn’t, well, they’re not honestly going to take your feedback seriously when you leave either.

      2. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        I’m not a fan of exit interviews in general either. I think they’re just a CYA thing on the company’s part.

      3. NotAnotherManager!*

        I don’t disagree with this, but some people do not voluntarily come forth with feedback until they leave. Being open to feedback doesn’t mean everyone’s going to take advantage of it, particularly people who’ve come from toxic workplaces and have a default assumption that they’ll be punished for speaking up or people who are new to the workplace and worry that providing feedback will be seen as complaining.

    2. Diahann Carroll*

      I did one when leaving an insurance company, and the process was impersonal, but I liked that because I was able to clearly articulate all of my many problems with that company in my feedback, which I probably would not have been able to do if I had had to sit in front of an HR rep and answer the same questions.

    3. Clever username goes here*

      Mine wasn’t online, and I was on the fence about whether or not to do it at all. In the end, I decided to speak to both HR and my direct manager. I was very clear about the reasons I was leaving a job that almost nobody leaves, which were:
      – no opportunities for upward movement (my manager was a people manager, not an industry expert)
      – passed over for internal promotion because the other candidate was known to the hiring manager and they had ‘rapport’ (wtf??) despite me being the better choice (he admitted it)
      – absolutely no options to include any improvements to processes or procedures (MASSIVE company ruled by corporate overseas)
      – little to no support for professional development if your manager didn’t think you would succeed (c’monnn)
      All that combined made it obvious that it was time to leave after 7 years. I now have a better title, a higher salary and newjob is supporting my professional development into project management. I told them ALL of that… and nothing will change. But it was cathartic.

      1. Clever username goes here*

        To clarify: the internal promotion was to a different department, which was the only option for escape. :)

    4. Anon the mouse*

      That was exactly my take on the online survey I filled out for the last organization I worked with before joining this one – the last question was actually if I wanted to be contacted for an in-person follow-up to talk about my feedback in more detail, and they never contacted me. I guess they really didn’t want to talk any more after I spent the survey railing against the lack of performance-based payscale progress, even though it had been “on HR’s agenda” to implement since 3 years prior when I started working there. I have zero faith that those ever get looked at, especially in a large organization.

    5. Mockingjay*

      When I left ExToxicJob for this one, I stayed completely neutral in my exit interview to preserve my reference from this company. “Everything was fine; just a new opportunity for me.” “I’ve enjoyed working here but I’m ready for a new challenge.” HR asked would I recommend the company to others; I said something along the lines of: “As a [very] small business, Company Toxic offers employees the chance to take on multiple roles, providing growth opportunities.” [*subtext: overworked and understaffed, wearing too many hats]

      Nothing I said in that interview was going to change anything.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have an old co-worker’s exit interview to thank for the 10+ years we telecommuted two or three times a week. Her reasons for leaving were a major pay increase and partial work-from-home schedule. She reports that our HR director blanched at the $ increase and said “I can’t match that, but I’ll see what I can do about the telecommute.” She pushed it through, and that alone kept several of us on board longer than we would have. (See: rate of attrition since TC was revoked by corporate!!)

    7. Adlib*

      Mine wasn’t online for my last job, but I was sent a form to fill out and then had a meeting with the HR rep for our division. I was honest about leaving because of persons X and Y, but I knew it wouldn’t change anything. It didn’t, but I wanted them to know they were causing the company to lose people. It wasn’t a secret to my boss either, and there was no love lost between me and X and Y so I guess I did it to get it off my chest.

    8. Foreign Octopus*

      I’ve done only one online exit interview before and I thought it was a huge waste of time. I’d been at the job only two weeks and realised that it wasn’t for me (there was cold calling when in the interview I’d be told there was no cold calling) and the dynamic of the team was awful (the manager was doing cocaine in front of the new staff on a night out) that I just didn’t want to be there any more. I wish I’d had the confidence to tell them I wasn’t going to do the exit interview but I breezed through it in five minutes and then tried never to think about the job again.

    9. Shadowbelle*

      I see no reason to have an exit interview, ever, online or otherwise. Not a good idea to let them know what you really think of them, if there were problems, and no reason to praise them on your way out.

    10. Anon Here*

      I think they’re really dysfunctional. Since you’ll be relying on the company for references, and they have the power to influence your reputation just by being part of your professional community, you obviously can’t always be honest.

      For example, they could try to hurt your reputation and push you out of your field so you won’t tarnish their reputation by saying the kinds of things you said in the exit interview. It happens, unfortunately.

      I always decline exit interviews or just thank the person for their time and for being a great person to work with. I keep it positive so they’ll leave with a positive impression of me. If there was a serious problem, there are other ways to handle it. And, honestly, if companies want honest feedback, they need to do a better job of protecting people’s anonymity and preventing retalliation.

    11. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I once did an exit interview and I found out from my friends who stayed with the company that it resulted in my boss being laterally transferred as part of a PIP to termination. He went from middle management to a front-line service sector job (according to LinkedIn.)

      So a good outcome is at least theoretically possible.

    12. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Individually they probably aren’t going to be what the departing employee wants…no big dramatic apology or begging them to stay…but to the company it might identify a pattern if there is one. If everyone cites low pay then the company might try to be more competitive, but sometimes they can’t. But if one person says pay, the next says their supervisor is a jerk, the next is leaving for health reasons, the next for more vacation….then the company knows these are individual choices and not something they can change.

    13. De Minimis*

      I wish my last one had been online! I kept getting pestered for more details and though I’d intended on being neutral I ended up venting way more than I’d intended. I didn’t stay there long so I hadn’t planned on using them for a reference anyway…also, I think the bridge got completely burned when I had to file a wage claim with the state due to them taking a long time with my final paycheck.

    14. seller of teapots*

      I manage a large team and I’m so, so grateful when people are honest in exit interviews. Recently someone gave feedback that, in one light, wasn’t that complimentary of me. AND I’M SO GLAD SHE DID. Because she highlighted an issue that I have known about and I had been unable to get the resources to address. Her transparency has been really helpful in changing that!

      If you work for an org/boss where you think they genuinely want to improve, exit interviews are really helpful. If you work for a bunch of schmucks, well take care of yourself and move on.

  7. AnonyMouse*

    When is something to little to late? I have worked at my current company for three years. For the first two and a half I answered to an incredibly toxic director. She was rude, cruel, insulting. She made everyone in the department cry and/or consider quitting at one time or another during her 15+ year tenure in the role. It seems like someone higher up finally realized she was a problem early last year and she was managed out of her managerial duties in late August. However, even with her gone everyone still feels like we’re walking on eggshells and “joke” about having PTSD. This isn’t helped by the fact that our former director still has a job with the company and contacts us not infrequently.

    Due to some organizational changes we’re still waiting to see how our new managerial structure shakes out. We’re being encouraged to hold on until that happens and “trust the company” but there’s a part of me that wants to quit anyway. Just the fact that the former director was so bad and managed to be in her role for so long makes me wary of future management decisions. Not to mention, I haven’t seen any sign that someone is looking into how things got so bad before someone noticed. Should I give my company the benefit of the doubt? Or am I right to want to cut and run?

    TL;DR: Toxic ex-director was allowed in role for 15+ years before being removed. Is this a red flag or just a fluke?

    1. Bilateralrope*

      With a problem that lasted 15 years, what you really want to know is what caused someone to do something about it now.

      1. Pilcrow*

        This is what I was thinking. If there was some change in upper management and there was a new sheriff in town cleaning up the streets, I’d be a little more hopeful (but still cautious, the new sheriff sometimes gets gunned down at high noon). If it was that the toxic person finally did something so intolerable that they had no choice but to manage her out, that’s a little less hopeful because it says she would still be charging on if it wasn’t for that one step over the line.

        Have you been there a long time? If it’s been 5+ years, it probably would be a good idea to start looking around. If things turn around, well, then you’ve at least updated your resume and practiced interviewing and you’ve lost nothing.

    2. Anono-me*

      Maybe what you want to consider is doing some very selective job searching. If you find something wonderful great, go for it. If you don’t find anything wonderful, then wait to see what changes are coming at your current position.

      To me it sounds like you want to leave, but are not sure if the awfulness meter says you can. You can leave for whatever reason you want to. (If you can however, it is typically a good idea to find your next job before you leave your current one. As job searching is usually even harder when you’re unemployed.)

      1. Sunflower*

        Agree with this. I’m a big fan of always keeping the door open- you’ll often know what the right decision is once you realize what else is out there.

    3. CM*

      Everything you’re saying is right — you obviously couldn’t trust the company for the past 15 years, so what’s changed now?

      Maybe something has but, before you decide things are going to be different in the future, someone needs to explain why you should expect that, and it doesn’t sound like they have so far. I’d start a soft job search if I were you, but, when someone tells you to trust the company you could also explain that that’s hard after what happened and ask how things will be different in the future.

    4. Jem One*

      Similar-ish situation where I used to work. One of the managers was the vilest bully I’ve ever encountered – truly a horrible, horrible person – and as a result, staff turnover in our department was astronomical. However, our department was isolated from the rest of the company and the owners didn’t want to get involved. Plus, she got seemingly great results, so they were happy to take an “out of sight, out of mind” approach to her behaviour (results actually massively improved once she left, but she was very good at spinning her achievements).

      I worked there for three months before applying for a role in a different department, because I could not handle working for her any longer. The owners pulled me in and asked why I wanted to transfer. I was honest – polite, but truthful – and explained her behaviour, how difficult it was and how I was concerned about the effect it was having on our other team member (who was only 20 and was being crushed by the bullying). The owners were *shocked* (even though they’d heard it from other people before) and said they’d speak to her. I was concerned about retaliation, but the owners convinced me that they wouldn’t allow that to happen. They spoke to her the next day, and late in the afternoon I got a text message from the bully, firing me! I went back to the owners to ask if I’d be paid in lieu of notice (UK here!) and they were horrified that she’d fired me – they approved my transfer and I started in the new department the next week.

      But, and this the the key thing, they never did anything about the bully. She wasn’t reprimanded in any way (I found this out later). She was just allowed to continue. About a six months later, she handed in her notice, at which point the owners took it upon themselves to go round and interview all of her subordinates about the bully’s behaviour. Once again, they were *shocked* at what they heard (even though they’d heard it all before). They fired her one week before her notice period ended (she had a four week notice period, so she left three weeks after handing in her notice).

      At this point, the young, direct report who had been struggling under her for nearly a year left for another job and gave no notice – she just sent an email telling them that she wouldn’t be coming back. The owners were appalled that she would leave without any notice at all and they didn’t understand why she’d quit now the bully was gone and everything was going to get better. But I was sat there thinking – you left this poor, young woman to work pretty much alone under a horrible bully, knowing exactly what she was going through and didn’t lift a single finger to help her, at any point. Definitely far too little and far too late.

    5. Anon the mouse*

      This is a red flag and not a fluke. There was an AAM letter just this week where someone was told to “trust the company” with their career progression because they were being held back from a promotion, and everyone’s bull$hit radar was pinged in the comments. Someone said “‘trust the company’ means it’ll work out for the company, not necessarily for you” – if they’ve failed elsewhere at managing bad culture, they’ll fail you all here. I hope you’re looking for another job and wish you luck in getting out of there.

    6. Roy G. Biv*

      “Trust the company” — that’s rich. They squandered your trust by allowing someone that toxic to first remain in the power position for 15 years, and then secondly, to still be employed, even if no longer your supervisor.

    7. Anonymouse2*

      Wow are you me? I left a job late last year w a director just like this. In my experience, you don’t last 15 years whilst doling out abuse and harassment without some backing and/or wilful blindness from the high high up. At the very least, it indicates a company or organization that will put its management first before its employees’ legitimate concerns. In my experience, the toxic director is also still hanging around informally as a paid consultant after committing some very heinous and well-documented misdeeds. 15 years is a long time and it’s gonna take a while to change that dynamic.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Well, there is no right/wrong decision here. In these situations, I generally make a two-sided list of Pro’s and Cons to staying or going. It could be you’re just ready to move on regardless.

      Ultimately, I think it depends on how MUCH you actually like your job. If the other aspects are OK (pay, time off, commute) then maybe you stay and give the company a chance to make changes. But if you determine you’re ready to move on for other reasons, then I’d start a selective job search, taking your time to find the right next step for your career.

    9. OhBehave*

      Were the director’s bosses/peers aware of this toxic behavior? I wonder that because if no one tells them they cannot fix the issues. Yes, in some workplaces, these bosses would know because they are working closely enough to observe the actions. That’s not always the case.
      If bosses did know and did nothing in 15 years – too little, too late for me!

    10. Mama Bear*

      I would tell whoever told you to trust the company that you don’t feel that you can. Remind them that the former director who was so awful is still in contact with your team. If you feel twitchy, then you have not received enough reassurance to have trust in the company. What is the company actively doing (vs saying they are doing) to warrant your sticking it out longer? I would likely be doing some job searching to see what your options are.

    11. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Office politics expert Marilyn Moats Kennedy once said that firing people who should have been given the heave-ho years ago can cause more disruption than firing people unfairly. With the former, people figure that top management is now changing its values — and may wonder what (and who)’s next.

      What do you think?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I wonder what she meant by disruption. If she means that people go ahead and quit anyway, I can understand that one.
        If she means that complaints pile on AFTER the firing, I can understand that too. It’s now safe to talk about The Problem.

        However, in my experience the long term bully was fired for something like they burped at the big boss’ dinner party. (Totally unrelated and minor transgression but was personally offensive to the big boss.) And yeah, people will tend to decide that all these birds have the same feather and beef up their resumes to go out the door.

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Ms. Kennedy meant that people tend to take sides in destructive office politics because expectations are no longer stable. Since management’s values have obviously changed, nobody (feels they) can be sure they’re safe anymore.

    12. Bilateralrope*

      Start job searching. Your current employer has until you find another job to show you sufficient improvement to keep you.

  8. Lloyd Dobler*

    How’s do you figure out what job you want? I’m feeling a bit Lloyd Dobler from Say Anything recently. I’m tired of non profit politics and everything it takes to woo a donor. I’m looking for something more straightforward—where I can do good work and not worry about mind games. I like puzzles. I like doing different things every day. I much prefer hands on work to sitting behind a computer all the time. Does anything come to mind? I’d appreciate any direction to look!

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      If you like puzzles and variety and don’t want to be tied to a desk all day, you should look into being a field property claims adjuster. They see some pretty crazy things and meet some interesting people along the way (I was an in-house adjuster for years and loved insurance, but ultimately burned out).

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        I check some of these same boxes and I’ve been thinking of trying to get into insurance adjusting… I’ve worked as legal staff (non attorney) for almost a decade and currently focused on insurance litigation so it seems a natural transition.

        Any advice for getting in the door?

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Hey! I was also in the legal field prior to moving over into claims (non-attorney here as well) – see what insurance companies are in your area and which ones having claim trainee programs or positions posted on their website. That’s literally what I did – joined a trainee program – and was paid for the entire 8 month program, then promoted with a nice raise after graduating. An attorney I worked with at my law firm who went through the program with me (pure coincidence) said he had to take a pay cut to do the program, but I actually received a 31% pay increase as a trainee versus being a paralegal.

          Good luck! Depending on what types of claims you end up handling, you’ll have a lot of fun (I enjoyed bodily injury and property liability claims the most) and your background is ideal to get into this line of work.

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Puzzles, doing different things every day, and hands-on work sounds like carpentry or cabinet installation or plumbing or similar.

      1. Not Dave*

        +1. Skilled trades like electrician, carpenter, etc. are all about solving puzzles. The work can be tedious but is rarely boring, and there’s a variety of jobs and career paths within each.

        Depending on your personality, some trades may suit you better than others. For example, if you’re an analytical, low-key person like me, you may make an excellent electrician but would HATE being an ironworker.

    3. Squidhead*

      Numerous health professions come to mind, if you’re willing to re-educate and don’t have any barriers to licensure (not relevant for non-licensed jobs, obviously). Radiology tech, LPN/RN, phlebotomist, lab tech, etc… I’m not gonna tell you that working for a big health-care-provider is free of mind-games, though!

    4. TimeTravelR*

      Through trial and error I figured out that I need someplace with structure… that there is a particular (but not totally inflexible) way to do things. Things like accounting, for example. Certain rules to follow, certain things you must do. I am able to think outside the box on ways to make it better, more efficient, etc., and that is my strength, but I like having that set of guidelines to start with.

      1. TimeTravelR*

        Which doesn’t really answer your question… but for me, the puzzle is how to make things better and still stay within the required guidelines!

    5. Katniss Evergreen*

      Seconding the trade commenters. I have a family member who’s a steamfitter, basically they install and maintain piping systems, supports, etc. There’s a lot of working with interrelated trade jobs and alongside electricians, etc., they’re always working out puzzles in a practical way. My family member was previously in an office job and is much happier doing work with his hands.

    7. Sunflower*

      I’d recommend reading What Color is Your Parachute. It really helps you nail down specifics of what you like and dislike about all parts of work (environment, coworkers, bosses, people you work with, etc)

      1. Emily*

        + 1 –
        I agree that’s a good idea.

        Be wary that this book has a (small) religion element, but I agree it’s generally very useful.

        Copies are widely available from the library, so you don’t have to purchase a copy of the book to read it & get some good ideas and insights.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Are you familiar with “What Color Is Your Parachute?” When I was caught up in big layoffs, they gave us one-on-one counselling, group counselling, and oh so many exercises to help us decide what path to take. And it was familiar to me from having used “Parachute” previously. It’s a self-driven career counselling process, for those of us not so lucky to have access to a human.
      I’m re-purchasing in the latest edition; it’s updated annually. I’m debating whether I want hardcopy or e-book — having my notes searchable could be helpful, but I do like scrawling right in the margins of DIY books!

    9. AnonyNurse*

      Public health! Look at what your local public health agency does and see if any of it sounds interesting. There’s a lot of field work, figuring out how things are related or how they occurred — a rabid bat is found. How many are there? Did anyone come in contact? A bunch of people have salmonella. Where’d they get it? Several kids have been injured on skateboards. How do we promote helmet use and get them to the kids? Did our intervention help? A lot of these jobs want creatively minded people who have a wide range of backgrounds — data, communications, direct care, etc.

      You get to do all the things you mentioned — and improve the lives of the people in your community.

    10. Emily*

      I highly recommend browsing the Occupational Outlook Handbook.

      The online version is VERY useful, and you can easily browse different industries & career paths, and quickly see job descriptions, salary data, and (also important) estimated growth rates of each field.

      This is a government resource, maintained and compiled by the US Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics.

      Occupational Outlook Handbook Website:
      https://www.bls.gov/ooh/

      1. lemon*

        I’d also recommend using ONet’s Interest Profiler, which is another free government resource. It’s a quiz that helps determine some occupations you may be interested in, and it gives career information from the Occupational Outlook Handbook. Doing a quick Google will take you to the online version of the quiz.

        1. Eshrai*

          So I just used ONet’s Interest Profiler and it matches me to basically what my education (accounting) is and what I currently do (training) . It matches me 0% to the career I want to move to (programming). Like, literally says I have no matches with the interests necessary for that field.

    11. RecoveringSWO*

      If your non-profit experience can relate to government agencies that investigate issues/enforce protections, you may enjoy becoming a field agent for a federal or local agency. They might be called something besides field agent depending on the agency, but they’re the ones who are taking interviews, doing on site visits, and making reports with recommendations for government enforcement. DOL, EEOC, EPA, and OSHA are all federal options that come to mind as agencies that might fit the bill. Obviously, soliciting donations isn’t directly translatable, but I can easily see how non-profit skills and passion can relate over.

    12. GS*

      If you like being outside, forestry or ecosystem restoration let you engage with ecosystems (massive, complicated, always-changing puzzles with some fundamental structural rules to help you stay sane) and you can steer towards field time, computer time, or a mix of both. I’ve rarely done the same thing from week to week, though there are similarities on a yearly cycle.

  9. TV Researcher*

    Does anybody use Tableau? If so, what are some tricks or things one must know in order to become an expert. If you’ve got a good blog to point me to, that’d work too.

    I’ve been using it for a while, but I’ve rarely been called to create anything. I generally use charts others have made, and then make changes as I need them. This was fine for a time, but now I have to create dashboards for budgets and whatnot, which is not how I usually use the program. I guess I have issues a) visualizing what I want my data to show and b) how to organize the data to get there.

    TLDR: Any Tableau gurus out there who have advice or blogs to read?

    1. Numbers that make sense*

      Edward Tufte, guru of visual display of complex information. Has 4 splendid books and does an excellent one-day course (not cheap) that I’ve taken. Not software but great for figuring out how to present your data in the most effective way. Numbers

    2. Rexasaurus Tea*

      For blogs and advice, definitely check out the various Tableau Zen Masters’ sites – my personal favorites are Andy Kriebel (VizWiz.com), Jonathan Drummey (Drawing with Numbers), and Anya A’Hearn (Datablick). If you have time, you could also watch some of the session recordings from this past Tableau Conference (tc19.tableau.com/watch) maybe in the “Dashboard and Design” and “Data and Analytics Skills” themes, and see if anything there seems like it could be helpful to you.

      I’ve been working with Tableau for several years now (although certainly not a guru!) and I’ve found that for me it works best to start with a general idea of what I want to know, and then ask myself how I could quantify or measure that using the data set that I have available, and then drill in from there. Sometimes I browse through the data sets first to see what kind of data and fields and details are being logged, so that I have an idea of what kinds of things people felt important enough to track. I also end up revising and re-revising a bunch once things start coming together. I think one of the trickiest parts is figuring out what the questions are, before I can start figuring out what the answers are.

      1. TimeTravelR*

        Thanks, Rex! Now I am going to end up going down the rabbit hole of dashboard design all day! These are awesome!!

    3. TimeTravelR*

      We are just starting to use Tableau at my work and just from the demos, I am madly in love! I can’t wait for the contractor to come to my department! So, no advice, but keenly interested in responses to your request!!

    5. Borgette*

      I’m the resident Tableau whiz at my work. I got my skills by using Tableau every day, with lots of different data sources, creating lots of different outputs. I learn best with hands-on experimentation, so Makeover Monday and Workout Wednesday work well for me. You can find either by Googling the name + Tableau.

      Makeover Monday takes a published visualization and challenges participants to re-design it. The project introduces you to a lot of different data sets, which is so so so important for understanding the relationship between your data and the visual. Looking at other’s work is very interesting, and introduces you to new approaches. Watching the reviews is a great way to learn about common pitfalls & best practices.

      Workout Wednesday is probably the best way to learn Tableau tricks. Generally the challenges are specific to Tableau and require using various technical skills, and even ‘hacks’, to re-create the posted workbook. It really helps you develop a sense of what can be accomplished with Tableau, where the limits are, and an instinct for what approach to use in a tricky situation.

      Whatever you do, make sure you start posting your *Non-Proprietary* work to Tableau Public, developing a portfolio of your work.

    6. baby yoda*

      There’s an online community that posts a weekly data set and takes submissions of new/interesting/useful ways of re-presenting them, and most people use Tableau. Google “Makeover Monday” or check out this site: https://www.makeovermonday.co.uk/ Good way to work on your skills.

    7. ten-four*

      Hmm, I’m trying to leave a comment with a link to a PDF of a book called Data+Design. It’s on open source book on effective data visualization: how to tell stories with data and what types of visualizations work best with which types of data. The lead editor, Trina Chiasson, ran a company that was acquired by Tableau a few years back.

      It’s a stellar primer and it’s freeeeee! Full disclosure: I edited a chapter :)

      I guess commenting forbids links, but if you search Data+Design book Chiasson it’s the first hit in Google!

    8. Can't Remember My UN*

      I’ve been working with Tableau for about two years. What helps me is to have an end in mind. I usually have a rough idea of the design of the dashboard I am looking for (which can change over time), which helps to focus on what I want to do with the data. Google has been my best friend, as well- almost any question I have, someone has asked and posted a video or blog or detailed steps about. It really helps to build out something where you know the data well and have a good idea of how to analyze it. That way, you can focus on learning the tool.

    9. Gaia*

      I use Tableau daily. They actually have some decent training videos on their website (free) and some on-demand trainings ($140/year) that I used to learn a ton.

      What really helped me was the forums, however. It was re-making other vizs either to recreate what I liked or to improve them and then posting for advise. It is a really great community.

    10. Blarg*

      I love Tableau and was the first user at OldJob, giant state agency, so had no one in my org to ask questions and of course, actual training was out of the question. Generally, it was easy and I liked that I could look at data we’d had for years in new and creative ways that wouldn’t have even occurred to me prior. Like ‘oooh, what happens if I graph it by X and Y but color Z differently and filter for W?” But I found specific areas where it can be frustrating … like god forbid you add a column to your excel file. Tableau just can’t figure it out on its own (although I think recent updates have fixed the issue). Since I was doing very specific stuff and only using Excel as a data source, most of the time, I’d just search Google/YouTube when I had questions or issues. I’m super proud of the public dashboards I built, which are still being used, but the more important stuff ended up being what I discovered in our data just mucking around. Even data-savvy researchers respond well to visuals, and I was able to ‘prove’ some things and improve some processes because I could show them. It makes taking a data set with hundreds of columns and tens of thousands of rows actually usable beyond the things you knew you were looking for.

      TLDR: I assumed Tableau could do everything I wanted, so when I couldn’t figure it out, I asked the internet.

    11. Yorick*

      As far as I know, no one here has or uses Tableau, but boy do they call me all the time to sell me a renewal.

    12. Hillary*

      I like Practical Tableau by Ryan Sleeper for how to, especially how to do things that I already knew how to do in excel or other BI tools.

      I’ve been using the Good Charts Workbook from HBR to broaden my skillset, I like it so far.

    13. J.B.*

      My biggest tip with Tableau is to get data at the level of aggregation you want before you start charting. I prefer to do things like sums and counts in SQL if I know I won’t need the individual rows, because combining stuff in Tableau is a PITA. I took a community college course which was pretty cheap and quite good.

    14. NotAnotherManager!*

      Does your local library have a Lynda.com subscription? They have Tableau (and nearly anything else you’d like to learn) classes with exercise files.

    15. TV Researcher*

      Wow! You guys are great. You have given me lots to read and sites to check! It’s very much appreciated.

  10. cubone*

    Anyone have experience or tips tolerating a boss who’s not mean or an asshole, but just…. incredibly dumb?

    I really don’t want to be rude or condescending, but she seems like she popped out of a sheltered private school into the world for the first time (but is a woman well into her career). I’m utterly baffled how she got into any management role of any kind and has caused absolute chaos because she panics any time we get… any work assignment ever. I try really hard with an agenda and preparation, but she steamrolls the majority of our “1:1” time with a vent about all the work on her plate, how stressed she is, how she stays up all night worrying about [incredibly minor basic project I don’t give a single thought to after 501….]. Sometimes I bite my tongue because I can’t think of anything to say that’s not “maybe this job isn’t a good fit then”??

    We just found out our new hire for a very senior role in the company is in her 30s with an incredibly accomplished resume and my boss is whispering to everyone constantly “do you know exec is only 35?!?!?” (in a panicked tone that makes me extremely uncomfortable). She’s mid/late 40s I’d guess and is VERY insecure about anyone in senior roles she believes are younger than her. I’m just at a loss. I adore my job and never before this had the experience of waking up with a pit in my stomach, but I sometimes feel like a babysitter more than anything.

    (Before anyone asks: yes I’ve spoken to HR, who is very supportive and have mentioned moving my role to another team. Yes, I think boss is being watched closely and there may be things happening behind the scenes. But my patience is dwindling and I’m becoming so irritable and intolerant of the situation in the meantime.)

    Anyways, thanks for reading this vent at least :)

    1. Incompetent boss advice*

      Oh, I’ve definitely worked with this type of boss before. Two tricks I used so that I could get anything done at all was…

      1. Use the “Ask for forgiveness, not permission” strategy
      2. As soon as any decision is made (nomatter how small) act on it immediately

      An example with a combination of the two
      Me: “What venue would you like for the Christmas party, A or B?”
      Boss: “Uhhhh, let’s do A.”
      Me:
      Boss (15 minutes later): “Actually, let’s do B.”
      Me: “Sorry, boss, I’ve already paid the non-refundable deposit.”
      Boss: “Ok, then I guess A it is.”

      1. Incompetent boss advice*

        Arrrgh, the second “Me” should be …immediately runs off to book venue A and pay deposit…..

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I had a boss before who was incredibly dumb. Like he wasn’t dropped on his head as a baby, he was straight up yeeted into the wall. I treated him like a National Geographic special and acted like I was observing wildlife. It made things tolerable as I looked for another job.

      2. Cartographical*

        I choked on my coffee at “yeeted”. I think I worked for OP’s manager’s counterpart in my field at one point, only this person was also crystal clear that all they really wanted was to be a stay at home parent and resented all of us for somehow conspiring — simply by existing — to put them in this role.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I don’t always cackle loudly at my desk, but WHEN I DO, there’s inevitably a senior manager walking nearby. Thank goodness it’s standard lunchtime hours.
        Yeeted into a wall indeed!

    3. Daniel Atter*

      Been there, done that. In my case my boss was a good salesman who was hopeless at running a department, but somehow found himself doing it. The way it turned out effectively was that I basically took over running the department, and he kept selling. It worked for the department, was good for my reputation in the company (because everyong knew) and obviously I got good experience (sure, without the pay cheque for a managerial job, but it helped me prepare for the job and pay cheque I have now). Importantly, if I made any mistakes, he always took full responsibility for them.

      I found, given that I was happy to take on that responsibility, the trick was to say things like “If it’s alright with you, I’ll take care of that” or “I’ll manage that if you have no objection?” He was happy to pass it on as it reduced his stress, and it made sure the department operated.

      Some people might think he took advantage of me, but he advocated heavily for me to get substantial pay rises and bonuses and so it was a win-win for everyone.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      It sounds like she has reason to be worried she won’t have a job soon!
      But seriously, I can’t say what’s going on with her. Either she’s truly in way over her head for some reason (did she change fields?), or she’s incredibly distracted by something outside of work. Or, she has paralyzing imposter syndrome. Who knows?

      But if she’s not truly horrible outside of being lost… I’d say you just continue to support as best you can by doing your job and managing up a bit. If she starts going down the panic trail, cut it off by staying factual. “Ok, well, here’s that TPS report then.”

      1. cubone*

        She did change fields! Well, same type of job function, but went from corporate to nonprofit. I know nonprofits get a reputation for chaos sometimes, but I think we have a very functional, supportive workplace. Minus this blip, haha. I’ve never worked corporate (all nonprofit/public sector), so I don’t know know if it’s the transition or just her. It does seem to me like she prefers to be in a position where she can dole out tasks to junior staff and just take credit – her title level is definitely more strategic, but all our other managers are very much “in the weeds” when needed. The generous side of me says she’s learned these behaviours from other bad managers; the less generous thinks she went nonprofit so to indulge her insecurities with a warped idea of “altruism”.

        Just reading other people’s sighs and fellow experiences made me feel much less alone and I appreciate the advice given!!

    5. Adlib*

      I’ve worked with this type before, and I feel you. The fact that there are so many people out there like this…yikes.

    6. OhBehave*

      It’s baffling how these people make it into managerial roles, isn’t it? Your boss most likely has been warned. That or she knows she’s inept. In your 1:1, act as if you are watching a show. Let her vent, wring hands, etc. Your internal monologue will be, “Holy crap, Batman! She is BSC.” Do all you can to remain unaffected by her hysterics. It’s a mental shift.

      Hopefully her role will change soon.

  11. Hamster*

    I’ve been at my company for 5 years and exactly 4 women/2 men have gone on maternity/paternity leave. How many are still here? 1 man 0 women. That alone is making me a little anxious but then when I think about it….

    1 (manager) quit to be a SAHM.

    1 (manager) came back after a year and works PT/remotely as an individual contributor. but not as a manager and definitely (I’m assuming here) not with the same salary & benefits as management level. I worked under her at the start of my position and she was well loved by everyone.

    1 (an admin position) went on extended leave and ended up calling out once a week after coming back. Our company tried to accommodate her by creating a WFH position for her but it didn’t work out and she resigned

    1 (individual contributor)…. went on leave, came back, and either went on leave again or quit, but I am not sure tbh.

    1 (male manager) went on paternity leave. There was restructuring and his position was gone. But, he had clashes with upper Mgmt and everyone expected him to resign at the end of his leave.

    I am a manager in a new department that’s been successful and truth be told, I am a little worried about losing my job.

    I’m still early and I don’t plan to tell anyone else until I’m far enough along. I know a little about FMLA. I’ve only told my boss and he’s super happy for me and I know he’ll have my back. My grand boss, I am not sure about.

    It’s one of those things that sounds bad but when you evaluate each situation it’s not that bad?

    It’s probably useless to worry at this point..right?

    1. Bilateralrope*

      I’d suggest you start documenting everything. That way you’ll be in a stronger position should they try anything illegal with you.

    2. Maya Elena*

      Were any of those high-stress jobs with relatively little pay to compensate?
      Lots of stress for little money might just be the thing which pushes a person to forfeit the job entirely rather than signing up for the job-daycare rat race.

      1. Hamster*

        We’re tax accountants so yeah high stress at least part of the year. Pay, I’m not sure, as I’m not aware of anyone’s salary but I believe it’s average.

        The first one, her spouse was making 2x as much (her words) that’s what made sense for them. The one who resigned, she extended her leave because kids were out of school for the summer and daycare was too $$. She got a new job that was close to home and coincided with her kids school schedule.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Upthread I described a workplace that had a really bad track record with moms (not all parents, just moms). Don’t just look at parental leave, look at how they accommodate parents of older children and other carers – is the workplace generally flexible? who generally gets promotions and key projects? is there a lot of last-minute travel?

      1. Hamster*

        That’s a good way to look at it.

        They did create a space for one of them to pump milk-it was a meeting/break room, they installed a privacy curtain and a mini fridge and Sent out a company wide email that pumping mother’s have priority on this room—so top level down it sounds good, but did a few jerks grumble about it? No idea. Even though that employee is gone, the accommodations are still there (people just nap or hold meetings there now).

        Either most are young and single/childless or have grown kids. People in key Mgmt roles are parents of young kids or single or married w no kids.

        1. Massive Dynamic*

          Just a curtain? In the breakroom?!?!?!! Oh god no. Even if the person pumping can lock everyone else out of the room, that’s a recipe for failure. Too much existing demand on a room to all of a sudden turn it into a pumping room. I’d be too stressed in there to produce any milk.

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            I think it sounds like it was a separate room with a privacy curtain that could be pulled across the glazing when in use.

            But I agree with the yikes – it’s a bare minimum box tick. I wouldn’t have managed to maintain pumping in that environment (pumping is hard in the best circumstances, and these are not the best circumstances). My baby was on solids by the time I returned to work, so suboptimal pumping didn’t matter; if baby had been under six months it would have been a real problem.

            I am also giving side eye to the low/non-representation of kid-parents in decision-making positions.

            (yes I like hyphens)

            1. Hamster*

              People in key Mgmt roles are parents of young kids or single or married w no kids.

              >>> isn’t that representation? I’m so confused now?

              1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

                It may mean that people can’t juggle key management positions with school-age children.

                It may be coincidence.

                That’s why I’m suggesting you look at wider trends across the whole company. Are there any employees with older/teen children? What kind of positions do they hold? They are the most likely to need flexibility, in my experience (e.g. as daycare is typically wraparound, whereas childcare options for children of school age are more limited).

          2. Hamster*

            I’m so confused now. It’s a small clean room (same size as all other meeting rooms) that has a lock and privacy. What’s awful about that?

            1. Massive Dynamic*

              It reeeeeally all depends on how it’s managed. Sometimes employees are resistant to change, and if a room was once the room where they ate lunch/made private phone calls/did yoga etc. etc. and now it’s off limits to all but pumping mothers, then some people can get a bit entitled and huffy about it. It’s all in how management presents the change, and how they shut down anyone who is mad about losing the space.

              And if it’s still the break/phone/etc. room until a pumping mother needs it, then that woman needs to have 110% support of management to kick anyone else out. This is where good pumping plans can fall down, as it could be damn hard for a junior employee to tell a VP that they need to clear out of a shared space. The trick (again, by GOOD managers), is to do all you can to not have your pumping employee be the one to directly manage this. And not have crappy VPs.

              Signed, someone who had to sometimes tell an amazing VP to take a hike from the conference room so she could pump and VP was awesome, apologetic, and immediately accommodating each (rare) time.

              1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

                I suspect that at least in some cases the best way to handle it would be…have the room for pumping only.

                Yeah, in a perfect world that would be wasteful and inefficient.

              2. Hamster*

                Ahhh gotcha, thanks for the clarification! I can see why it sounds so bad In theory but in practice it doesn’t seem to be so.

                It seemed like it was a positive change, if anyone made any negative noise about it I never heard about it. based on how things have been in the past, if a mother were to complain that people were giving them a hard time, a mass email would go out to everyone as a reminder that they have priority first and I can definitely see this as a serious HR issue. our HR is also a mother of 2 school age kids so I do think she’d handle it properly. Nothing of the sort has happened (to my limited knowledge.. Upper mgmt never uses these rooms, VPs/etc meet in the CEOs office (which is all glass so no visual privacy). Im not worried about having to kick someone out.

              3. Hamster*

                IIRC the pumping mothers only used it for a few months at a time and there wasn’t overlap. People were still allowed to use the room at other times but the mothers had priority always.

                I’ve read so many horror stories about how awful some workplaces are where they’re given filthy rooms, bathrooms, cramped janitors closets, going to their cars etc. this is a small clean room w/ privacy and a fridge (and no ones stealing breast milk either) and most of the workers here (senior to junior) are decent humans so i don’t think it’s so bad.

            2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

              It’s still used for breaks and meetings. Pumping moms may have priority but there could be problems if there aren’t enough alternative venues for meetings and breaks. A pumping room should be for that purpose alone.

        2. DCR*

          Given that you are legally obligated to provide a place for pumping mothers in the United States, and because that sounds like a crappy space to pump, I wouldn’t give them credit for that.

    4. Fikly*

      So, successful return to work after having a baby! The statistics are terrible, and also more complex than it might seem.

      Yes, there are absolutely companies doing illegal things. But there are also a ton of companies who skirt the line by not directly doing illegal things, but by having environments that are so unfriendly to working parents, that they end up quitting within the first year, and so it is legal, but not good for the parents.

      Within that group of companies, some are doing it intentionally, and some aren’t, but are just clueless. It’s important to know which your company is, if possible, because sometimes you can work with the clueless ones to make things better, either for you, or company wide.

      I’d highly recommend working with a back to work coach/professional, which is someone who specializes in helping women/parents with exactly this transition. They can help with knowing what your rights are during pregnancy, for leave, once your return, and also in figuring out how to have conversations with your management and coworkers, if needed. They can also give an unbiased perspective on what category your company may fall into.

      I hope everything goes well!

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        But there are also a ton of companies who skirt the line by not directly doing illegal things, but by having environments that are so unfriendly to working parents, that they end up quitting within the first year, and so it is legal, but not good for the parents.

        Yeah, a lot of places look at the minimum they need to do in order to comply with the law and not what will be good for everyone in that place where business needs overlap with employee needs (i.e., a business needs engaged and talented employees and employees need to be taken care of in certain ways—what does that space look like when we’re talking about family leave and return to work). With one of my children, the place I returned to pushed back on my request for pumping space and time, because they knew the exact parameters of the laws they needed to follow. While they were technically correct (the best kind of correct, right?), it was a crappy thing to do and was indicative of a larger attitude towards employees in general, moms returning to work specifically.

        It does sound like the OP’s company has demonstrated this disregard, at least not by the information given, but there’s a lot we don’t know about each of those situations.

    5. Colette*

      I’m in Canada where 1 year of leave is normal, and it’s really common for people to not come back after maternity leave (by choice) – either the break gives them a chance to re-evaluate what they want from their career and they find another job, or they decide they can make staying home work, or their daycare choices mean they need a change.

      The explanations you give above could be legitimate – having a child is one of those major life events that can have far-reaching implications. Or they’re not, and your company pushes out people who take leave – but I don’t think there is a clear pattern of that based on what you’ve said above.

    6. WellRed*

      I’m unclear on why you think you’ll lose your job. It sounds like your company is pretty accommodating and that’s assuming you even need any accommodating. To me, it sounds like these people, except the guy, all decided to take a step back, not that they were forced to.

      1. Nita*

        Yes, that’s what it sounds like to me also. In fact, I’d think of the fact that one manager ended up working remotely and another was offered this by the company as a positive. In my experience working remotely is not great for one’s career, but it’s worth its weight in gold and precious stones when it comes to balancing the career and the baby’s needs. When I got pregnant I was 100% sure that I’ll take the FMLA leave, be back full steam at 12 weeks (I mean – 12 weeks! that’s a lot! no one takes 12-week vacations!!!), find the baby a nanny, and be completely happy with the result. Well… I’d been around lots of kids but not many newborn babies at that point. I totally underestimated how hard it would be to leave someone so tiny and helpless. I ended up doing a lot of things differently than I’d planned, and am very glad my boss was able and willing to work with me on that. My career did take a hit, but it was temporary and I was actually able to move into a more senior management role while working remotely, and build on that once I started coming into the office again.

    7. Joel*

      Not every person who leaves does so because they’re pushed out. My wife had a long hours/high stress job and (a few years after she came back from leave) went part time a few months ago because I got a higher paying job. A coworker’s wife left her job because her salary was about what they were paying for childcare and she preferred to be with her kids.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Funny how it’s almost always the mom who ends up giving up work. Funny how it’s almost always the dad whose current and potential position and earnings would be considered more likely to support the family.

        Not a criticism of your situation, and it’s where we ended up too. I’m just pointing out that these decisions aren’t made in a vacuum.

    8. Cartographical*

      Agreed with the suggestions on documentation & scoping out the job market but also think you shouldn’t stress too much — yet. Can you talk to anyone who’s been there longer about why they think this is the trend?

      Around here, it’s estimated that a 2-income family with kids has a joint “profit” of a whopping $2000/year over 1-income families where the working spouse has a similar role as the higher-earner of the 2-income family. Many families choose to “soak” the $2k loss and have a parent stay home. My partner’s work sees less attrition than you describe but it’s notable for its unusually good benefits package and being the kind of place that people are committed to on principle (being a cooperative) and not just a paycheck. It’s not unusual for families around here to go single income after the second kid, though women in the C-suite in his industry generally make enough that it’s normal to see their spouse go SAH or they hire a nanny — it’s cheaper than daycare if you have two under five or more than two total.

      All that is just to say — systemically, our culture does not make it viable for many parents to return to work if it’s not necessary to do so for survival purposes.

    9. Mama Bear*

      It may be coincidence, or it may not. I would document anything that you think might impact your performance review/consideration for your job. Use the FMLA, have a plan for when you are out, and a plan for your return. Truthfully if it would have been feasible for me to stay home or work PT the first year, I would have, simply because 12 weeks of FMLA went so fast and it was hard to leave my kid. A friend of mine left her job b/c her husband got an incredible offer and she no longer had to work if she didn’t want to, and once the baby came along, they decided she would be home. There may be underlying circumstances you aren’t privy to, so I wouldn’t panic just yet.

    10. Heat's Kitchen*

      To me, these sound like a lot of personal decisions, not decisions made by the company. Becoming a parent is HARD. Many women intend to come back to work and realize that isn’t for them once they’re out on leave. Some prefer to go down to part time during this season of life (and if a company is supportive of that, it can work out in the long run for both parties). You’re making a lot of assumptions here and I think it’s all unfounded. I don’t see anything that screams the company pushed these people out.

    11. HBJ*

      Sure, keep an eye on if it seems like the company is down on people taking parental leave, but none of what you’ve listed sound like red flags to me.

      It’s a bit of a “wrong” thing to say these days, but the fact is many families want one parent staying home with the child/children. And many woman want to be a SAHM. There’s nothing wrong with that, and it doesn’t mean people are being pushed out if they quit after leave. I know lots of people who planned to go back to work post leave and changed their minds. You could have offered me the best maternity leave in the world and/or the most flexible job in the world, but unless it was 18 years or 10 hours a week and able to be picked up and put down at will and done at any time (meaning I wouldn’t have to have daycare), I still would have quit.

  12. Bilateralrope*

    I’m asking out of curiosity. If an employer has a single position that needs 24/7 coverage (eg, security guard), how is it typically done where you are ?

    My employer does it with 12 hour shifts on a 4 on, 4 off rotation. 2 people permanently on nights, 2 on days. Which means they each work an average of 42 hours per week. 36 hours for 4 weeks, then 48 for the next 4.

    But I’m in a country where there are no laws about an overtime rate if you work more than x hours per day/week. So I’m curious how overtime laws affect the roster.

    1. Squidhead*

      Even in the US, these laws vary: I am a union RN and our contract specifies that “full-time” is 80 hours in a 14-day pay period. Maximum hours we can work in 7 days is 72 (6 12-hour shifts). No, we don’t get OT if we exceed 40 hours in 7 days. Presumably, if someone’s days are all clumped together they will also have a clump of days off (easier to do when the pay period is 2 weeks long), but 72 hours in 6 shifts feels looooong!

      1. Laney Boggs*

        It’s obviously not your fault but… I dont think I’d want a nurse on their 70th hour in 6 shifts.

        I’m consistently baffled by the hours healthcare workers keep

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I know someone who had a tired junior doctor come in to do her stitches, after a vaginal delivery.

          Doctor had been working for more hours straight than most people work in a week.

          She did not want him to do her stitches!

        2. Squidhead*

          That’s fair! Most of us don’t usually work 6 days sequentially…more like 2 to 4 days on followed by 2 or 3 days off. But (to the original question) we would not be prohibited from doing it and we would not earn OT if we did it.

          Since 80 hours divides unevenly by 12, most people use the remaining 8 hours as a shift (we are allowed to work 8s as well as 12s at this hospital). Sometimes it is used for a meeting or a class, depending on the person’s exact position and responsibilities.

        3. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

          My husband and I had a really amusing culture clash over that – I was in medical school, where I had some rotations where doing 12hour days was the “normal” length of day while he’s in engineering, and was at a very safety focused company. He just could not wrap his head around the idea that I was routinely working longer hours than the truck drivers at his work were allowed to, while actively caring for patients.

          (It didn’t get better in residency – I’ve worked plenty of 16hour days, and feel grateful I’m not at a program with 24hour call!)

    2. Anony Shark*

      We have either 2 or 3 people covering each 20-22 hour period. They work either 4 or 5 days per week. People work similar start and finish times, so their body clock gets used to it and they can arrange their personal lives around a predicted work schedule. I’ve discovered a lot of people prefer working non-traditional hours. We’ve had parents who want to work night shifts so someone will always be home for the kids, or people who want to work very early morning because that’s when their spouse works.

    3. Daisy Avalin*

      I work in a 24-hr petrol station (uk), and we have three shifts of one person over the 24-hrs – 7am to 3pm, 3pm to 11pm, and 11pm to 7am. Overtime isn’t really a thing, although if one shift has to stay later/start earlier you do get paid normal rate for that.
      We have set days/shifts for each person, for instance I work nights only, and preferably weekend nights due to childcare needs. Of course I may need to cover holidays for the other night shift guy when needed (as he does for me) but that’s an as-and-when.

    4. Poppy the Flower*

      I’m a doctor in the US and at my hospital we have multiple day shifts (includes afternoon/evening shifts) and a night shift. The day people rotate between any of the day shifts but the night people only work nights. I’m nights and I work an average of 3 shifts a week. We don’t get paid overtime for staying late and are salaried… but if we pick up an extra shift that isn’t assigned to anyone we get paid moonlighting rate (it’s kind of similar to a contractor rate so is higher than a normal shift).

    5. Cartographical*

      The norm here is 8hr x 3 shifts, sometimes offset across positions for full coverage of shift transitions and breaks — often with rotation of shifts (unless someone requires a set shift to accommodate childcare or parental care) so no one works third shift year-round. People with kids often take the second or third shift over the summer months to reduce childcare costs. When I was a kid, some of my friends’ parents worked solely 2nd & 3rd shifts so they’d go to bed to one parent and wake up to the other. (This was during the dinosaur days so no one batted an eye at the gap when parents were transitioning on and off shift. I swear 100% of our parents would have been in trouble with CPS if we lived today with the norms we followed then.)

    6. Princesa Zelda*

      My brother is a stocker at a grocery store, and his position has 24/7 coverage. The way it’s arranged, there are three shifts: 6-3, 2-11, 10-7. Each shift gets an hour unpaid lunch with half the stockers taking lunch at one time, and overlaps with the shifts before and after so they can hand off. Most of the workers are PT, so OT doesn’t matter with them anyway, but even FT rarely ever brush up against OT.

  13. Corgi*

    I’m a manager in a dept that is led by 2 senior managers (Possum and Hippo) and us 3 managers and we have remote staff to manage. While both Possum and Hippo are on the same level, the job of directly managing us (ie coaching, holding reviews etc) is split with possum managing myself and one other manager, while Hippo manages Lemur. BUT b/c they are on the same level, we technically report to both of them. Hopefully this is clear enough.

    Ok so…we had new staff begin early last month. My coworker and I developed the training manual and shared it with the other managers. Each mgr is responsible for training their own staff member. On day 2 of the training, I had a meeting with my remote and the staff member for the other team was in the meeting as well. Pretty much the remaining training sessions included both of them.

    I went to talk to her manager, Lemur, and she said. “I had no idea. I don’t know who that is, I wasn’t here last week.” I told her OK but the new hires were announced in our weekly meeting earlier this week and you were there for that. She just said “no I wasn’t there.” (SHE WAS THERE!) She just kept playing it off as if she had no idea what was going on because she wasn’t there.

    tbh I was kind of shocked so I didn’t say anything and walked away. She later came up to me and said “okay so you’ll take care of her?” while I was in the middle of presenting (!) to the new team.

    I told Possum about this and he didn’t like it but b/c Lemur is under Hippo, he didn’t want to over step and for Hippo to do his job and actually manage her.

    And… Hippo did step in and basically fobbed it off on us. He said “oh I talked to Lemur and she doesn’t understand why Corgi didn’t set up the meeting links for her team as well.”

    Possum was LIVID about this. He was like “that’s not her fking job!” (not literally but that sentiment). This is the 3rd batch of new hires we’ve had, so that process where each manager is responsible for setting up their own team has NOT changed.

    The thing is that Lemur has taken so many days off, which is normally NOMB but now that I and others were left picking up the slack, Possum was getting frustrated by that AND Hippos lack of management. But Hippo won’t do much except throw it back to us. There’s other examples to back it up but this was pretty much the big one.

    Most recently, Lemur approached me and said “oh you set the new person up wrong.” I just pointed out that the new staff Member had confirmed their email address. I was nice as possibly be. But internally I said “at least I did your job for you. You’re welcome.” again….NOMB that she has time off but..come on, not even an acknowledgement and a complaint on top of that?

    I’m on vacation now, so I’m not as annoyed as I was whe this happened but, I’m not wrong to be annoyed at this right? FWIW most of my annoyance is directed at Hippo for not managing Lemir effectively.

    1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      No, I think your annoyance is more than justified if a little futile (since even Possum can’t do anything about it)

      (I *adore* these uses of names BTW!)

      1. Corgi*

        Thank you! Possum has full authority to step in if he has to (just like Hippo can give me feedback if what I’m doing is affecting his team) but he doesn’t want to have to do Hippos job for him.

    2. Quinalla*

      Annoyance is justified. If something is going on with Lemur, then duties need to be properly delegated to others, Lemur and/or Hippo treating it like you or others messed up for not covering things that are supposed to be Lemur’s responsibility.

      Doesn’t sound like there is much you can do except keep bringing up with your boss so that none of this nonsense makes you look bad.

      1. Corgi*

        Thank goodness my boss is on my side on this. I’m annoyed @ lemur not for the PTO but taking it for granted.

        What makes it a little more frustrating for me anyways is that she has a very soft tone but professional. Whereas, I have a very non feminine voice and I try SO hard to have a nice, calm tone but no matter what I end up sounding rough or cross. It’s the sound equivalent of a RBF (ugh!) So anyone sees and they think I’m bullying her.

    3. Marthooh*

      Sounds like Lemur is gaslighting you. She may also be gaslighting Hippo. Document the everlovin’ stuff out of all your interactions with her — send follow-up emails, keep a log of weird stuff she does, keep your behavior with her completely professional. (Don’t keep a spreadsheet of her absences, though!)

    4. Myrin*

      I know this is not the main point of your story but I can’t get over the fact that Lemur said she wasn’t at that meeting when you saw her there.

      1. Corgi*

        *jumping up and down arms flailing about* YES EXACTLY!! And I’m the jerk for pointing it out!!!!

        She just kept shaking her head and saying no I was awaY. I pointed it out and she still said no. She denied knowing ANYTHING and kept saying she was on PTO the week prior. My grand boss was right there so I had to be calm.

  14. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    I was struggling with work motivation and was going to post in the New Year’s open thread… and by the time I’d written out the explanation of what was going on, I’d figured out an action plan.

    The key thing I remembered is that I can be strongly motivated by competing against my own metrics. I figured out a way to make a part of my job quantifiable and then started tracking it. It’s already helping. Also, writing out “I’m scared to talk to my boss” helped me get over my fear of talking to my boss, so I’m going to do that next week.

    So thanks, everyone, for the great advice you telepathically gave me. :)

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      That right there is a big compliment to Alison. The whole point of an advice column is for people to learn–and you have internalized things well enough to start answering yourself.
      I’m not quite there, but I have had a couple of moments confronted with something unpleasant where my mind blanked and promptly rebooted with a big flashing “WWAS?” onscreen: What Would Alison Say? And I successfully channeled my inner Alison.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        I think that might be my New Year resolution for 2020 – channelling my inner Alison!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I think I got the idea best when I went through and binged on all the podcasts. Something about hearing tone of voice *really* does help.
          (Alison, if you happen to read this… if you have an occasional reason to do an occasional podcast, that would still be appreciated by me at least! Maybe tagteam with one of your podcasting blogger buddies to make it less onerous for you.)

      2. Killer Queen*

        This is so true. This advice column is so awesome. I am an HR Manager and a manager at my company came to me for advice on how to talk to a chronically absent employee (mostly to make sure she was following all labor laws in terms of pay and everything) and I realized the advice I was giving her was very Alison-esque. She is so awesome!

    3. Cartographical*

      My best friend and I do this all the time in Slack, it’s amazing how writing out what’s going on can clarify the steps you need to take — once you’ve learned how to problem-solve. I love that about this site, that it does teach great templates for deconstructing a problem and developing solutions. Congrats on internalizing it, would love to see your post-mortem on your own plans!

  15. Quaremie*

    Hi everyone, This is my first time posting here, but I love reading everyone’s questions and advice. I manage a team of about 25 people. I started three years ago with one person under me, and my team has grown rapidly.  Almost everyone is remote, spread across the country. Because some people are so far away, we do not have regular meetings on site. I’ve met them all in person, but for some of them, it was only once when they first started. We do have online meetings once a week, and we are in touch by emailon a daily basis. If there are any questions or problems, I work through them by email or phone calls. But for some of the high achievers, who create no waves and cause no problems and have few questions, we barely have reason to communicate one-on-one. I’ve spent the last six months reading throughall of these archives and I am committed to improving as a manager in 2020. For that reason, I have scheduled one on one meetings with everyone on my team over the next four weeks. I would like to discuss with them any questions, comments, concerns, ideas, goals, and career plans they would like to discuss. Some of them will take charge of the meeting and let me know all of the thoughts they have, but others will be quite quiet and I want to make sure that I maximize this time that I have scheduled with them. What do you think would be some good questions to have ready to ask them?   

    1. LilacLily*

      Not a question, but I recommend you prepare some scripts for each of your employees with things they recently did well (or super well!), and then congratulate them on a job well done. Also take a moment to think where you can see them improving overall and how they could go about it. That goes to your best employees too – I’d even say it is especially crucial you do that to your best employees – because when you’re a top employee it can be frustrating to sorta know you’re doing a good job but not being quite sure how exactly your job is good and how you can keep improving. And if you can’t find anything for them to work on, skills-wise, maybe think of giving them new assignments, or enroll them in training sessions they might be interested in that will further their career. Also, make sure to open the conversation for feedback to yourself as well; knowing what your team thinks of your work style can be helpful.

      I say this as an employee who had regular one-on-ones with my last boss and hated/dreaded them. He wouldn’t tell me what he thought about my work unless I asked him, and he always answered vaguely, like “oh yeah keep it up you’re doing great”, and never seemed open about receiving feedback himself. The one-on-ones were, mostly, a waste of time, and something he only started doing because HR made him do it.

      2. Quaremie*

        Thank you so much! It’s a great idea to be specific with their accomplishments and to go in with a plan. I’m definitely open to hearing feedback about my own style, but besides saying to them, “If there’s anything you want to let me know about how I can improve, I’m happy to hear it”, I’m not sure how best to let them know that I am open to their feedback and for them to know that I mean it. Thanks again!

        1. JJ Bittenbinder*

          Some people (myself included) have a very, very difficult time giving feedback, even when it’s invited and apparently welcomed like this. An additional question you could ask them is, “Is there anything that gets in your way of you being able to do your job, that I could help with resolving?” So that gives them the opportunity to both think about enterprise roadblocks (“I don’t have XYZ that I need to do my job”) and manager-specific ones (“I’d love it if you could ABC or stop doing EFG”)

          Might make it easier for them to articulate their feedback.

        3. Cartographical*

          This is just me, and taking into account my own issues, but… Ask for that feedback in advance of the meeting! (Personally, I’ve always appreciated a boss who treated 1:1 meetings as “how we can work together/how I can help you get your job done” strategy sessions.) Encourage them to tell you what they think you’re doing right as well: what should I keep doing or do more often?

          Give them lead time to gather their thoughts and then schedule a point at which they can tell you all this — maybe right after you first review what they’re doing well and acknowledge any accomplishments they have (you can also give them some idea of what your meeting agenda is in advance).

          It might give a whole different tenor to your discussion of their process and what needs improving to find out up front that something not up to par is being impacted by something you can control. It could make any corrective discussion more collaborative. Also, it means they’re not walking out of the meeting wondering what their concerns have done to your relationship but it’s similarly not putting them on the spot at the opening. I hate when I’ve had to end a 1:1 with a boss or professor with “tell me what I can improve” because I’ll be in a weird limbo waiting to see if I said something wrong and it’s made me so frazzled, it’s almost embarrassing to admit.

          1. Mockingjay*

            Came to say the same about advance notice. Also, during the meeting, let them know it’s okay to provide a response later, after they’ve mulled the question over.

      3. Bootstrap Paradox*

        These suggestions from @LilacLily are right on. These are important leadership steps to take, and will show that you care about your employees & their contributions.

    2. Daisy Avalin*

      I’d start the first one on one meeting (especially with your top performers) by saying something like ‘I realise that we haven’t spoken very much about your performance because [it’s very good/you clearly know what you’re doing/whatever is relevant to the person you’re speaking to], so I’d like to know how you think you’re going, and what you’d like from me as your manager to help.’ Then go into goals/etc depending on what they say.

    3. Fikly*

      Especially for things like long term goals and career plans, a lot of people might not have an answer off the top of their head! I’d definitely let them know ahead of time that you want to talk about this so they have time to think about it.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Agreed! And if your employer has established professional development programs/resources, it might be helpful to include links to those so that your employees can get some ideas.

      2. LKW*

        This! What do they hope to accomplish that year, what are their short term/long term career goals and how do you help them get there?
        What kinds of work interest them and is there flexibility in the team structure to give them the experience?
        What are their strengths and how can you promote those strengths on the team?
        What are areas of development and how can you partner them with someone who is stronger in that area and build their skills?

      3. Quinalla*

        Yes, give them a brief agenda of what you want to talk with them about and what you expect them to bring to the meeting so they can prepare. I would of course come with questions as well to draw out some of the quieter ones, basically prompting what is on your agenda. I’d go over accomplishments and areas of improvement for the last year, any goals they set or that you set together, goals/things to work on for next year, what they need from you and what roadblocks they have, etc.

    4. TimeTravelR*

      I love that you want to do this. May I recommend you continue regular contact, especially with your high performers? It makes them feel valued. You know you don’t have to monitor them, but you need to tell them that, and having a regular one on one to hear what’s going on with them is a great way to show it.

    5. Anon 2*

      I am one of those quiet, remote employees who has few questions for my manager. I find scheduled one on ones to be painful. He says they’re for me, but they’re really for him. If I have an issue or question, I communicate in the moment (email, chat, etc.). The scheduled time is always so awkward. Employees need different amounts of attention. If they don’t have a lot to say, don’t force it and end the meeting early.

      1. WineNot*

        I do agree here that they are sometimes extremely awkward if you don’t much to talk about. But at least you know the time is there if there is something that has been bothering you, etc.

        1. Quaremie*

          Thank you, both. I do know that for some people this would not necessarily be what they’re looking for. And I am fine with ending the meeting earlier if that’s what they want. I just feel bad that some people get a lot more of my time and attention than others, and I want to make sure that they know they have an opening if there’s anything they want to talk about. Our weekly meetings are usually pretty painful, because I feel like I’m talking into the void… Everyone’s got their phones muted and it’s hard to draw people out into a big conversation or debate when you’re not in the same room together. I think some people may not like speaking up in that environment so I want to make sure that they have a more private venue.

    6. WineNot*

      I love that you’re going to implement one-on-ones in 2020. I’ve always had a lot of open communication with managers in scheduled one-on-ones and outside of scheduled time, though I was never remote. In my current job, I feel like I have to most to talk about and one-on-ones are not a thing and my managers barely ask me how I’m doing.

      So anyway, I hope they go well with your employees! I would ask them to come prepared with questions, feedback, goals etc, so they have an idea of the kind of things you’re hoping to talk about. It might be helpful to have a monthly or every other month check in to keep the communication flowing! Good luck!

    7. Fabulous*

      I have a 1:1 every couple weeks with my manager (our team is also remote) and aside from any pressing questions or updates, a lot of the time we just chat about life or how work is going in general. We also do “bullets” that we email every two weeks as well so she has a breakdown of our accomplishments. I do think it’s helpful to have sort of a rubric for these calls though so we’re not just sitting there with nothing to talk about – I’m glad you’re thinking ahead like that! As for what to include, I agree with LilacLily about writing out scripts or bullet points for job-well-done items and strategizing on little things they can work to improve (such as if they write long emails, maybe work on action writing or something, or if they show a propensity for streamlining processes they could start learning six sigma) and in subsequent calls help them build a plan to accomplish that.

      1. Quaremie*

        Thank you! I definitely have a relationship with a few of them where we could sit and chat about our lives for half of that time. At the same time, with a few others, I know absolutely nothing about their personal lives. I don’t even know if they are married or have kids. I feel weird asking, since it is unrelated to the job, and we don’t have casual conversations that allow those topics to come up. But the longer that goes on, the weirder I feel about knowing absolutely nothing about their lives. But maybe these one on ones will open the door to more casual conversation.

        Thank you for your comments!

    8. CM*

      My suggestion is to frame the conversation with high achievers like this:
      – I’m really happy that you work here. I know I can count on you for excellent work and I really appreciate your [specific strengths].
      – I want to make sure you’re happy to work here too, so I want to hear about how you’re feeling about your work and whether there is anything that would make you happier.

      And then you can go into your questions — I’d suggest starting with specific questions rather than open-ended “what are your plans.” Here are some:
      – What are your favorite and least favorite things about your current role?
      – Out of your current activities, are there any that you particularly like? Any you dislike?
      – Are there other types of opportunities you’d like to have, but haven’t yet? Any skills you’d like to develop?
      – Are there any obstacles in your way, or anything that frustrates you that you would like to see changed?
      – Does our current communication work for you? Is there anything you’d prefer?

      After asking specific questions, then you can go into the more open-ended “any concerns, ideas, goals, comments, plans that you want to share with me?” as long as you have let them know in advance that you’ll be asking about this. Also, in that advance notice, I would frame this as giving them the opportunity to share with you, but not requiring that they do so — some people don’t really have anything to say and will get anxious about that. You could say something like, “The purpose of this meeting is for us to be able to talk one-on-one about how work is going for you generally, rather than our usual meetings which are more task-focused. This is not a performance review — instead, I’d like to hear your thoughts and ideas. Here are some questions that I’ll be asking: [list questions]. Please spend a few minutes thinking about these before we meet. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, ideas, goals, or career plans you would like to discuss, I’d like to hear about those too and will leave time for an open-ended discussion about anything you want to talk about.”

    9. Cartographical*

      This is just a footnote but as someone who has been a high performer/self-starter in some of my roles, I hated feeling invisible. I don’t mean not getting awards or anything like that, I mean the perpetual “compliment” of “Carto is so great bc I never have to think twice about them!”. In fact, I hated and still hate getting rewarded for doing things I am just supposed to do. Please invent a reward for “lowest blood pressure while being called a Nazi/profanity/etc.” or “fastest resolution of revenge porn/potential liability disasters/mandated reporting incidents” because that’s a real achievement.

      Yes, I got things done efficiently and correctly and my work was always excellent — but that didn’t mean I was always okay and didn’t need/want anything. It also made it feel that my position was entirely contingent on being an invisible asset and I never had a chance to ask for additional training or advancement unless I caught my boss between putting out the tire fires in the organization, which wasn’t often. I even had reviews cancelled/shortened bc “You’re good, right?”

      If you don’t give your rock stars space to not be rock stars, or use them to make up for the shortcomings of other employees, it sucks. No matter how great we are at the work, our kids get sick, our dog dies, our spouse cheats, our parents are bonkers, we get bored, we burn out, we get sick ourselves. No one should feel that not ever needing anything from their boss is a condition of their job, especially not when it’s provided to others. Even if we don’t need anything from you, it’s always nice to be asked and to get the same face time as everyone else.

    10. Mama Bear*

      Having been remote, either from my whole team or from my boss, this is huge and I’m glad you’re taking this step. It is easy to be forgotten when you’re not on-site and having routine meetings can be a good thing to ward off any surprises. I was once surprised with a mid-year that I didn’t know was going to be one and that was…unpleasant. I wish my boss had instead done what you plan to do. Further down in the comments was a suggestion to get to know them better as people – it’s hard from online, but try to read the room on that one. We had a guy who was VERY tight lipped about his life outside of the office and for whatever reason preferred to be a mystery. We let him be mysterious. Sometimes people compartmentalize and maybe that’s why you don’t know if they’re married or not.

      Good luck!

  16. easy apply is a curse*

    Does anyone have any tips and language for shearing away from emphasizing admin tasks and duties when I want to play up my organizational ability, can-do spirit of being able to use google and ability to handle a giant and diverse flood of tasks in my resume and cover letters?

    The thing I keep circling back to is that a big part of my (comms) job is internal events, which involve a ton of admin leg and keyboard work, and when I get loaned out even to big projects it’s for similar functions. My admin / pa work is only supposed to be 10% of my current job, but when I tote it up it looks like the majority of work. Any help and job search encouragement would be great. I’m looking to go into more external comms focused stuff, or basically anything where I spend more time writing, even if it is writing emails for hr to send out.

    1. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t highlight your ability to figure things out so much as the work you were hired to do. Can you also flag for your bosses that you’d like more A and B?

      1. easy apply is a curse*

        we’re a vanishingly tiny team and my boss is extremely helpless, besides having personal crisis after personal crisis. they couldn’t hire me full time before, and certainly not now with a global hiring freeze. i don’t get support and sometimes i’m not even sure my boss remembers i’m on contract (memorably boss said i get a bonus (in fte, up to 4 months extra) and i… don’t…)

        i get stuck on the ‘highlight accomplishments’- so many of my accomplishments are based on pulling off something medium with one person- ie myself.

    2. Katniss Evergreen*

      If you can say something to the effect of “I’ve got a knack for being the person behind the curtain, sending communications and making things happen while wearing many hats” in your cover letter, I feel like that does it. I would try to put numbers to any of that that you can for your resume and pick a particular example for your letter; for your last event, how many vendors/customers/colleagues did you coordinate with to get things done? Can you convert that into an average for the majority of internal events you work on?

      Sorry if I’m missing the mark here, but you so have my sympathies on trying to emphasize non-admin work when you have a different focus.

      1. easy apply is a curse*

        that’s good framing, i’ve been emphasizing the regional nature of my role to show that i pull a lot of strings to get things done, but i wonder if it comes across just how much any success i’ve had is down to having learnt how to push people into place to get cooperation.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Alison’s suggests picking the accomplishments you WANT to emphasize. You don’t have to put any events accomplishments on your resume if you don’t want to be selected for it.
      I’d suggest including at least one of them simply because your references might think of your admin/pa work first. Find a way to work in the writing tasks even into this item so you make it clear that yep you’re good at two things, even if you’re looking for a job focusing on one of those things.
      Admin/advents oriented: “Planned and ran the week-long International Llama Lover’s Convention. Received a 4.5/5 approval rating from 200 attendees.”
      The part you love: “Planned publicity campaign. Wrote all convention handouts. Worked with contracted graphic designer on posters.”
      And your other achievements would focus on the 20% of your current job that you want to turn into 80% of your next job.
      It’s also worth talking to your manager in a one-on-one to make sure she knows you’d rather change that percentage on its head. That gives her a chance to try and shuffle workload — maybe simply say someone else’s name when she’s asked for help from another department for PA work. You don’t have to say you’re job hunting — just let her know it’s what you want to be focusing on. Not even managers are telepathic, and if we’re extremely professional about doing the unpleasant tasks assigned, only our words will let our managers know we find the tasks unpleasant.

  17. Sherm*

    Bouncing back from getting fired: No, I didn’t get fired, and I don’t appear to be in danger, but I still worry. I was pleasantly surprised to see that many updates were along the lines of “I got fired but found a new job.” I would have thought that getting fired would generally put you behind many of the applicants who weren’t. If you were fired and recovered without too much hardship, how did you do it? Did it come up in the interview? If so, what did you say? Thanks in advance.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Never fired but I’ll say I’ve never ever been asked if I’ve been fired before. So it doesn’t always come up for starters.

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I’ve only ever been fired from tending bar. (A few times I escaped a job just ahead of the axe… but the “ahead” part is what’s important there.) It never came up in an interview.

    3. Ruth (UK)*

      I’ve never been officially fired but in the time between finishing uni and getting a full time job (which was initially retail for several years – it was 2012), I worked on a market stall and was paid cash-in-hand. This only worked out for a couple months and the stall-owner decided he didn’t want me anymore. Anyway, in this case I just left it off my CV.

      I’ve not ever been directly asked if I’ve ever been fired either. So I guess it would mainly cause a problem for someone who was fired from a company they worked at quite long term as it’s harder to just leave that off your work history. However, on the other hand, having worked somewhere long term increases the chances they may have mad more than one line manager in their time there, and/or know more people who might be able to give them a reference.

      I guess if someone was an overall weak performer and stayed somewhere for years and years until they finally got fired – that’s pretty hard to bounce back from! But if it’s either a short stay, or a long-term job where the issues that led up to being fired are more recent/immediate, then I suppose a person will still have colleagues/managers willing to vouch for their work in a job search.

    4. Asenath*

      Never fired, exactly, but if I hadn’t resigned I probably would have been – looking back, it was all terribly painful, but they did try to, um, ease me out, when it became obvious I wasn’t improving, rather than actually firing me. I was worried about this because although I eventually had some references from short-term contracts, that was obviously the job I held longest and the one that paid best, and an obvious source of references. So why did I leave, especially without something to go to? I decided on variations of “I’d been llama farming for some time and decided I wanted a change in direction. That’s why I (fill in “started a part-time education program”, “looked for a way to get into something new by taking contracts in alpaca herding” or whatever seems most relevant to the job I’m applying for). It worked for me. It probably helped that Former Job was notorious for being stressful, and for having people leave for different fields.

      1. Quill*

        Same deal, my stint at Pig Lab from Hell was so far my only salaried position and also my longest stay. However, sometimes I briefly go into “startups with no room for growth or increased pay,” or “I left for an opportunity that fell through,” (the opportunity: to never have to deal with my awful boss again! the fall through: needing to make some money even though I was living with my parents at the time,) if asked, since my boss talked me into writing it off as a resignation… and the unemployment people were incredibly nice about the situation when I applied for unemployment.

        Sometimes I’ll just smile and tell them that I wanted to get out of biosamples, if the job is sufficiently far removed from that field. And I did! I never want to take pork skin samples again!

        I guess if I was ever asked directly if I’d ever been fired, the truthful answer would be “kind of” considering the forced resignation thing.

    5. Thankful for AAM*

      I just came here to say, whatever you do, don’t lie! No one, I mean no one, gets fired from our job in a non profit, municipality run org. EXCEPT the person who lied when directly asked if they had ever been fired and they later found out they had been fired.

        1. Adric*

          Flat out lying on your resume, application or in an interview, is generally considered a pretty big strike against your integrity.

          Hiring is very trust based if you think about it. Very seldom does anyone really go out of their way to verify your application info. They might check your references, but all the information on your references came from you.

          In general there’s a lot of scope for shenanigans and if you take advantage of that, it’s looks really bad.

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, I’d agree. It’s not the crime, it’s the cover-up. Once I find out you’ve lied about this big thing, I no longer can believe anything you’ve said to me.

            And I understand the desperate lie of somebody who needs a job and wouldn’t lie about anything else; I’m not saying that this automatically means “if you lie about this, you’ve lied about everything.” The problem is that I can’t as a manager *tell* whether this is the only big thing you’ve lied about or not, and that I can’t trust you as I need to as a result.

        2. Artemesia*

          Irrelevant question. Falsifying your resume is a fireable offence. I know someone who claimed two batchelors degrees and was fired for lying although he had a double major and considered that two degrees. And yes I think the firing was ridiculous but it was in a high visibility role in a high visibility field. It had nothing to do with his competence in the job at all.

          1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

            My university used to issue two physical diplomas to students who participated in certain dual-major programs.

          2. Just Another Manic Millie*

            I had a double major. My diploma shows that I had a double major. But I never in a million years would have said that I had two bachelor degrees.

            1. The New Wanderer*

              Same. The qualifications for receiving two degrees are different (involving more credits) than for getting a double major.

          3. Another JD*

            My double degree was 150 credits v. 120 for one degree with a double major. They are definitely different.

            1. NotAnotherManager!*

              Mine was the same +30 credit requirement, and I received two diplomas at graduation.

          4. WellRed*

            My question is not irrelevant. Thank you everyone else for your replies. Makes sense why now.

    6. Lily Rowan*

      I’ve never been directly asked if I got fired, and the place that fired me agreed to call it a layoff anyway, but also, I went straight to grad school after getting fired (it was already my plan, just shifted the timing), so my resume all makes sense. When people ask me to walk through my resume in an interview, I just say, “I worked there, then I went to grad school, then I went to this other place…” I don’t lie, but I don’t get into it.

    7. WellRed*

      I’ve never been asked about it. It’s not ideal to not be in a current job, but they don’t brand your forehead as you’re cleaning out your desk. The interviewer presumably needs to fill a position, you are looking for a position to fill.

    8. WantonSeedStitch*

      Ages ago, I left a position from which I almost certainly would have been fired if I hadn’t quit. The environment was toxic and causing me so much anxiety that I kept screwing things up and was unable to do a good job. Some things I think helped me in the end:
      1. I was very professional about my exit from my toxic job, giving plenty of notice and saying things like “I’m grateful for the opportunities I’ve been given while working here.”
      2. While I was quite young and this had been my first non-temp role, I had previous temp experience where I got a lot of praise for the work I did, so I was able to put bosses besides my current one as references.
      3. I didn’t have another job lined up when I left, but went back to good old temping again. This gave me yet MORE experience where (surprise surprise) with no toxic manager in place, I did very well. More good references, and even more recent than Toxic Manager.
      4. When I found myself in a long-term temp role that I really enjoyed, I asked my manager if there was a chance of it going permanent. She said that unfortunately, she had decided to leave the organization for another job–but she gave me a heads-up about an open position in another office of the same department that she thought would be good for me, and offered to give me a reference. That was what clinched it, I think.
      5. I did NOT list Toxic Manager as a reference. When asked why, I said straight out that I felt that my work at that company was not up to my usual par, and that it was an environment where I found it very hard to do my best. I said that my work at all my other positions was more indicative of my abilities, and my references from those positions backed me up on that. The fact that one of those references was from a colleague within the organization helped a lot, I think.

      So, overall: make sure you have GOOD work experiences and people who can attest to your abilities. Be honest. Be professional. No one ever asked me in the interviews if I had ever been fired (I hadn’t) or put on a PIP (I had). They hired me even without talking to Toxic Manager, and I’ve been here for over a decade now with several promotions, so…yeah, it can really work out.

      1. Quill*

        I don’t use Toxic Boss as a reference (and when people ask about confirming employment I usually tell them that he won’t ever get around to it [he won’t] but I have W2s) but my reviews for the last 2 jobs, aka the ones where I was finally on anxiety meds, have been pretty glowing.

    9. LadyByTheLake*

      Depends on why you got let go. First, no one has to know that you were fired, and if it does come up somehow, it can usually phrase it in a way that it doesn’t matter — I’ve been let go a few times but it was never a big deal. Once it was “I was hired to do llama grooming but the job changed to teapot painting, which is not my skill set.” Or “It wasn’t a good fit as I was a specialist and that company preferred that everyone be generalists” (this really happened). In other words, unless the firing was due to something really bad, there’s usually a way to frame it as a bad fit and the new job as a better fit.

    10. ThatGirl*

      So, I was fired in fall 2007. And it was over a mistake that was ultimately my responsibility. I still feel like I got thrown under the bus, but I understand why.

      I didn’t interview well for awhile – I didn’t have AAM to help me figure out what to say and every time the “why you left your last job” question came up it was awkward, even if I manage to avoid saying I’d been fired.

      I kinda lucked out in that my next real job, they didn’t ask me much about the one I’d been fired from; it was a contractor position and they knew if I turned out to be lousy they could get rid of me quickly. Instead I flourished there and was at that company for 9 years.

      But anyway. You don’t necessarily have to disclose that you’ve been fired. As others have said, it doesn’t often get directly asked. A friend of mine who’s in employment law told me that while I should not ever lie, I could spin it in whatever way I chose. Why did I leave that job? Well, newspapers are dying a slow death (true) and it just wasn’t the right fit for me anymore (true). Now, if they asked if I resigned or was terminated, that I had to answer directly. And I did have answers ready – to accept responsibility and said I’d learned from my mistakes, but also allude to the fact that it wasn’t entirely my fault without badmouthing that company. It takes practice and I had to say it out loud a lot to myself to get it to feel comfortable.

    11. Goldfinch*

      The only time I was asked if I was “fired” or “terminated for cause” was in a security check for a job in public education. Never for a corporate job.

    12. bassclefchick*

      Unfortunately, I’ve been fired more than once. One was 100% my fault (took a job in a panic because I had just been fired and got fired from new job in 6 months. Don’t do that.) The others? Both sides had fault. What I can say is, don’t lie. Some places ask up front in their online materials if you’ve been fired. And of those, SOME places will automatically reject you if you respond “yes”. Why? Not sure. I would think they would want someone who is honest about it over someone who will lie just to get through the online system. Now, I’m at a job I like and it’s been over 2 years. I just had to get out of my own head. I just handled it in the interviews by saying I wasn’t the right fit and I realized my mistakes and learned from them.

    13. Quill*

      I got fired once. The next job I got after didn’t ask, the one after that didn’t ask… current job didn’t ask “have you ever been fired?” they asked “Why did you leave company x?” and I truthfully answered that my position had changed on me 4 times in 2 years and it was a bad fit without a lot of training.

      (I mean. At the point I got fired a pork themed re-enactment of the Cod resignation was a possibility, but at least I got unemployment when I got fired over not answering my phone immediately about a shipping mistake I made because I never got proper training on a day I was off work…)

      Some day I will be able to comfortably one up a coworker with “yeah, I got fired once from a place that tried to run a biosample lab with sinks powered by sump pumps and didn’t have vent hoods for volatile chemicals, I think I can handle this minor equipment malfunction.”

      (The sump pumps DID overflow with pork biosample bits. This occurred over 6 months before I was fired. For some reason I stayed.)

    14. Sleepy*

      My husband was basically fired, though it was technically an angry layoff so he didn’t have to tell anyone. (However, a lot of people suspected it when he couldn’t give his former boss as a reference.) It sucked and he was set back in his career, his salary, etc. However, he needed to get out of Old Job and five years later he’s doing great. Plus he learned something I think he needed to learn about keeping your boss happy even if you don’t agree with them.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        I’m sorry your husband (and you!) had to go through that. And good point about the lesson: Unfortunately sometimes we have to personally please our bosses, not just do the job well.

        Many if not most layoffs are really firings. Assuming for the sake of argument that when a company says they had to lose, say, 10% of its workforce they really did…I assure you they did not pick names out of a hat until they got to 10%.

        Certain layoffs due to the company, a particular division or a particular location closing or a contract being cancelled/completed — or strict procedures based on predetermined criteria (generally seniority “last hired first fired”) — are one thing. (Even then, except for the company itself going belly-up you need to prepare to explain why they didn’t find a new spot for you. The above-mentioned strict procedures commonly also include provisions for “bumping” other works with less seniority, at lower levels, etc.)

        But otherwise, people — likely including your immediate boss — decided that you had to go:

        https://hbr.org/2013/10/keep-your-name-off-that-layoff-list

        PS: A National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) study showed that employers understand very well the difference between types of layoffs. People selectively laid off had longer job searches culminating in lower-paying new jobs.

        (And without correcting for the fact that some non-selective layoffs were plant closings, each of whose workers suddenly had to compete with many others for now much fewer job openings.)

        https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/3442782/Katz_LayoffsLemons.pdf

    15. Spreadsheets and Books*

      Got kinda fired in kind of a mutual “this isn’t working” thing. I wasn’t sorry to see that job go – it was quite toxic – but I was definitely worried about the ramifications of getting fired. I was assured on my way out that when questioned, the company will only verify employment and nothing else. So, I rolled the dice and have never stated I was fired. The company has been true to their word and has even stated that rehire is dependent on circumstances when asked, so it’s never come back to bite me. That job was so long ago now that it won’t need to be listed on background checks.

      I was a student at the time, so I just said I left because the position no longer worked with my schedule. I found an internship a few months later that led to a full-time offer. It’s never held me back.

    16. Zephy*

      The only job I’ve been fired from is one that I can now happily leave off my resume (very short stint, let go during probation period for poor culture fit), but I guess maybe if I take another run at a government job it would have to come up. In that case, just what I said above seems sufficient – I was let go within the probation period because it was a poor fit.

    17. Blueberry*

      I was fired because of a mistake I made. Here, I will say that quite a few people at that job had it out for me to begin with, including my boss’s #2, and I could have been cut some slack and wasn’t. But I never said that in my interviews or to my current coworkers.

      After reading extensively on AAM, and with some help from people in my life, I turned the reason I was fired into a mildly funny story of a learning experience. I don’t know if it’s the region where I live, but in most interviews I was asked if I’d been fired, and I told the story, emphasizing what I did to learn from and not repeat the mistake, and my understanding of its seriousness, but in an amusing way. For the jobs I was not offered I don’t think the firing was why, and eventually I was offered a job and happily took it.

    18. Adlib*

      I’ve been fired before. (Still don’t know exactly why – they never said. After 5 years, “it’s not working out”.) Anyway, the next job I got asked me why I left, and I told them what happened, but that I learned from it (in more detail than that). I think it helped that I was entering an industry that doesn’t really care about that anyway for one reason or another. I’ve always been asked why I’m leaving or have left a previous job.

    19. AJK*

      I’ve done it twice. It was not fun. The second time I was so sure I’d never find another job I ended up seeing a therapist for a few weeks. I cried after I went to my first interview after the firing because, even though I hadn’t put my previous boss as a reference, the hiring manager knew him and asked if she could call him, and I didn’t feel like I could say no. I went home and cried (and went to my next therapy appointment and cried) and a week later I got the call telling me I got the job. I don’t know what previous boss said – although I knew at the time that it wasn’t his choice to let me go, I still figured he’d give me a negative reference – but it can’t have been that bad, I guess!
      The first time I was similarly anxious and afraid – I’d been fired after four years at my job. I came up with an answer to the “why did you leave” question that was truthful but not “I got fired,” I said the skills required for the job had changed over the years and my skills were no longer a good fit for the position. I also had decent references from jobs before that, but the 1st job after the firing was a temp admin assistant earning barely more than minimum wage so I think they were just happy to get someone. Within a month I was given a raise and within four months I’d been promoted so it all worked out for the best, and after that I never had to bring it up again.
      But I hate the stigma that goes along with being fired, and I hate that I can’t say no to that question anymore. The reason I went to therapy after the second time was because I was considering suicide and I scared myself badly enough to go get help. Both firings were related to “fit” reasons and almost certainly connected to my ADHD – I was never even put on any sort of PIP and I got unemployment both times because I hadn’t committed any kind of employment misconduct, so perhaps that helped. But it was also terribly demoralizing because I’d worked really hard at both jobs – the second one especially, I don’t think I’ve ever worked that hard in my life, and for that to happen anyway… but each I was back to work within about a month. But I’d never want to repeat it, and I wish the stigma surrounding “being fired” wasn’t as bad as it is, because I was getting ready to make plans to jump off of a bridge and I mean that literally, that’s why I ended up calling the mental health crisis line and getting help through a therapist. Even now, I’m not over either experience and I’ve been to therapy off and on ever since, and my work-related anxiety can shoot through the roof at times. I was very lucky to have “bounced back” as well as I did but it was brutal.

    20. we're basically gods*

      My dad was fired once. He’d admittedly already given his notice with a new job lined up, and so he had given up on subtlety with his frustrations with the job he was leaving. (Dad’s boss had hired his own son to work IT, except the son was completely incompetent and also refused to accept any mentoring– I’ve worked with my dad in a batch of interns before, and he’s not the sort to just leave you hanging if he thinks he can help, whether you’re an intern or a fellow senior engineer).
      I think it worked out pretty well for him because if someone asked about the job, he could honestly explain why he was fired, which wasn’t due to any failure of performance on his part.
      (I was in high school at the time, and he was delighted when he came to pick me up after theater. It was his first time being fired, and it was the Wednesday of his last week of work, so he effectively wound up with a lovely long weekend.)

    21. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      How do you suggest handling it if the firing came mainly from a personality conflict with your boss or one or more of your co-workers?

      Bonus question: What if, even after discussing the situation with professionals (like career counselors and mentors) you decide that the others were mostly or totally in the wrong? Say your boss or peers did something over the top, you stood up for yourself professionally and got punished with a pink slip. What, if anything, can you say you learned from the experience and how would you describe the situation?

      1. Close Bracket*

        I was very honest in an interview once about developing conflicts with a new boss. I didn’t frame it as “they were definitely wrong” (though they were–it was a ridiculously petty power grab that could have been handled in a way that got both of us what we wanted). The person I was talking to was really understanding and was basically like, “we’ve all been there.” That was a crap shoot, though, you never know who you are talking to or what their take is going to be. And I didn’t get an offer, which could have been for any reason, but I can’t prove that my candor wasn’t the deciding factor.

        If you can state what the disagreement was about objectively and frame it as a disagreement over direction or a change in your job duties or basically anything other than a personality conflict, try that. So I could have said something like, “I was leading the llama grooming function, which was intended to be a two year role, at most, with a gradual phase out into other duties. Then my management changed; the new manager wanted an all new team and hired a new head llama groomer to replace me without defining new duties for me. I found new duties on my own, but it wasn’t technical work, and I’m really looking for technical work.”

    22. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I was fired from a job after I had been there for eight weeks (before I finished the three-month probation period). The employee handbook said that since I was fired before my probation was finished, I was ineligible for rehire by any of the company’s branch offices, and the branch manager made it a point to tell me that if anyone calling for a reference would be told that I had been fired and was ineligible for rehire. I solved the problem by not listing that job on my resume.

      Many years later, when filling out a job application for the FDIC, I came across the question “Did you quit a job to avoid being fired in the past ten years?” This shook me up very badly, because almost twelve years prior, I had quit a job when I found out that the company had placed a help wanted ad in the newspaper for my job. However, as I said, the FDIC was asking only about the past ten years, so I had no problem writing “no.” But I was so happy that the interviewer hadn’t asked me that, because the question upset me very much, and I’m sure that if I had said no, the interviewer would have been certain that I was lying. And I know that I would have flunked a lie-detector test if I had been asked that.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        For what it’s worth, my understanding of the “did you quit to avoid being fired” question is more about cases where you’re outright told you’re going to be let go one way or another, and you take the option to resign vs being fired. In your case you may have suspected they wanted to replace you, but since nobody actually said anything about it to you it’s no different than leaving a job for any other reason.

    23. Leela*

      I’ve been fired but a huge part of it was that there were numerous things I was asked to do that were unethical/illegal. I said no multiple times and finally they fired from me. The way I say this in interviews (and I’m lucky; this wasn’t long enough to be on my resume so I’m not ratting anyone out in a way that I feel would worry interviewers if it was say, my last job which lasted 10 years) is “I was asked to do several things that I wasn’t comfortable with and let them know, they’d asked me a few times and I came back with my case and finally we agreed that it wasn’t a good fit” and I let them probe into that if they want (they usually do, at that point I feel I’ve been coy enough that I can professionally touch on some of the things without giving too many details).

      If anyone’s curious, here’s some things I was either told to do and said no or forced to do while a supervisor stood over me:
      -Prioritize candidates with white-sounding names and discard those with other names so there was less risk of calling someone who needed a visa
      -Call people we wanted to interview, but hadn’t applied to us, at 6 in the morning so we’d be sure to catch them first thing. Also stay late and call them at 10 PM to catch them at home.
      -Give up the work e-mails of friends I was close to from my last job to senior recruiters so they could reach out to them and go “Hey, I know Leela! Soooooooo here are some great candidates you should take a look at and pay us for finding…”
      -Found an AWESOME candidate for a role we were hiring for, but he didn’t apply, wasn’t looking, and wouldn’t return our calls. My supervisor made me, on the spot, use his personal website info track down his wife (she had a website that he linked to) and try to get her to get him to contact us for opportunities. He was notably furious and called in to chew us out; I was blamed for not roping him in on that call
      -Lie to a candidate about what the tech test was (we told him it was our own personal tech test that we used, I told him that because I didn’t know at the time that it was a lie, but it turns out it was X company’s test and he’d already taken it because he was already in interview stages with them. He wrote us back right after to be like “so I did the test but I already knew all the answers because I took this test two days ago. Is this for X company?”
      -discard any candidates who appeared to be over 25 for Major Online Retailer because they tended to hire younger. I see the sense in this one actually because honestly they did tend to hire more younger people, but this would be like “oh she doesn’t list her graduation year so she’s probably fifty so don’t even reach out”
      -Lie to candidates about whether jobs were full time or contract, lie to candidates about whether a contract had the potential to become fulltime (we were always told to say yes because “who knows, they might!”, lie to companies about whether a candidate they were going to interview was interested in full time or part time work
      -Convince candidates, using extremely vague and misleading language, that they were a perfect fit for a given job when the truth is they were just close enough to probably get hired and the company would get some quick cash as a recruiter’s fee
      -go onto glassdoor and leave a super positive review…on my FIRST DAY. It was heavily hinted I should not disclose that it was my first day, nor that I was asked to write this

    24. Ladybugger*

      I got fired once and I just never offered that information in my job search – it helped that I’d only been there 2.5 months so it wasn’t like I had to account for a huge gap. If it’s a short stay, treat it the same as any other short stay and leave it off your resume altogether. No one ever asked. (It would have been a tricky one to explain because ‘everything about this place was absolutely bonkers from day one and this firing was just another crazeballs thing’ is not really an answer you can give in an interview.)

    25. DrRat*

      So – I never expected that I would get fired multiple times in my life, plus living through some layoffs. But you know what? It’s not the end of the world! As other commenters have noted, it is actually fairly rare these days that someone asks in person or an application asks if you have ever been fired. (And unless it’s for egregious conduct, most companies will now call it a layoff, not fired for cause.) Most question “why you left your last job” and expect some spin. “I was looking for zig, and the company was moving in zag direction” or “there was no opportunity to move up within the company.” The biggest red flag they are looking for is people dumb enough to trash talk their old company. Even if asked if I was ever fired, I could easily say, “Well, when I was in college, I was waiting tables at a restaurant, and one day they just told me I was fired. The restaurant actually went under shortly after that.” And no one ever asked, “Oh, well, other than that, were you ever fired?” My biggest career black mark shows up on Google, but it’s from 20 years ago so now you have to do an intensive search to find it. I lived, I learned, I moved to a new field. I think the biggest trouble people have bouncing back is when they get fired for doing something spectacularly stupid (you know, like bankers dressing up as ISIS and holding a mock execution) and it’s going to be the first thing people see on Google forever. So – watch your back with social media, and even if you get fired, you’ll survive!

  18. Mkt*

    How to broach conversation with my interim manager (aka grandboss) that I’m burned out in my role, need a change and would like to apply to other internal departments? — It’s company policy that I need current manager’s blessing before even applying on any vacancy otherwise it looks a lot worse for me.

    I am also applying to jobs at other companies, but would prefer to stay at current, if possible. I’ve been here +13 years and have good vacation, benefits, etc plus I’ve built up internal contacts and currency I’d rather not completely lose.

    Truth is- I don’t want to keep reporting to grandboss because I don’t respect the way they’ve handled this department and how they clearly play favorites amongst direct reports. But since I can’t quite say that, what should I say instead?

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Is there some reason you can’t say “I’m burned out in my role, need a change and would like to apply to other internal departments”? That seems totally legit to me.

      1. Lisa*

        Agree. ‘I want a change and want to try new things’ is a valid reason to look for a nee job. If there is a specific dept that interests you, you can say you have become interested in what they do.

        1. Mid*

          Yup. That’s my suggestion. “I’m looking for a new challenge/to expand X skill with Y projects on Z team/explore a new direction”

          1. WantonSeedStitch*

            This, especially. I think that if you can have specifics about what you want to do/what kinds of roles or departments are interesting to you, it sounds more like “I’m running TO something” than “I’m running AWAY FROM something.”

      3. Tyche*

        I think it’s better not talking about being burned out, because it can open some difficult questions from the boss and maybe some criticism (even if unjustified).
        It would be better to open with your need for a change or a challenge and your desire to broaden your abilities.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I wouldn’t mention anything about the burnout either because if grandboss decides to be petty, he can torpedo your chance(s) for escape to an internal department by telling the hiring manager(s) that you get easily overwhelmed, can’t handle stress, and/or just aren’t very good at your job/wouldn’t be good at their role. Stick to the looking for new challenges bit since you’ve been there 13 years, which makes that explanation actually plausible.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yes, this. And emphasize that you want to stick with the company (even though you’re willing to leave… they don’t need to know that part).

        3. Sunflower*

          I agree with this- mostly because your boss will probably try to see how they can keep you if you include burnout, they may be able to fix your workload but that doesn’t sound like it would fix your problem. You’ve been there for long enough that if your boss is a reasonable person, he should be encouraging.

          1. Mkt*

            Thank you, I think you highlight the fear I couldn’t quite put my finger on. Even if the volume of work were to miraculously lessen, due to other reasons I would still want to leave.

      4. Mkt*

        Thank you, you make it seem so simple. Maybe it’s the burnout speaking that putting together that sentence seemed so overwhelming.

    2. Eleaner*

      Go with your gut on how much you trust him with, because I would not trust my boss to listen if I used that phrase, he’d attempt to fix the situation or explain why he doesn’t see why I should be burned out.

      I’d reframe to what you like about the new department plus the I like working at this company. ie I’d really like to develop my skills more in the handles department, I’m looking for something new to dig into like the lids engineers. IDK what rings true for you, but latch onto what part will make you happier and hopefully your grandboss can see you’re truly interested.

      1. Mkt*

        Thank you, I don’t quite trust boss and that’s why I’m so hesitant in having the conversation. I can almost hear them saying comments about why working 12+ hours a day is reasonable and why we should be prioritizing work over personal life, etc. (No thanks)

        Good point on reframing to what would be positive for me and try to approach from that angle.

    3. Cartographical*

      My partner used wording along the lines of: “I’m very committed to Company X but would also like to diversify my work experience since I’ve been in this area so long. I feel that my institutional knowledge would be a support asset in Area Y or Z and I’ve led Projects A, B, and C, which give me applicable experience. I’d really appreciate your support for this move.” They’ve been with Company X for 30 years but have had three discrete jobs in that time (outside of moving into management roles or restructuring in a department), each lateral or higher in position. It’s very much the norm in their company culture, fortunately.

  19. WhatsHappenin*

    How would you deal with a coworker who asks questions in an obfuscate manner (either intentionally or unintentionally) but then sternly says, “that’s not what I asked” when you give them the answer? I’m clearly confused by how they are asking the question, but giving my best guess.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      “Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by ABC?”
      “Just to make sure I understand, it sounds to me like you’re asking XYZ—is that right?”

      1. WhatsHappenin*

        I think I tried this approach and that led to a very long drawn out, confusing whiteboarding session. But seems like there might not be any other solutions.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          Did the second option (saying back their question to them) also result in the whiteboarding session?

    2. Eccentric Smurf*

      If I don’t understand the question, I ask for clarification before answering. I work with a few people who phrase things oddly at times and asking follow-up questions is only way to ensure we’re having the same conversation.

      1. WhatsHappenin*

        The problem is I don’t know I don’t understand the question until she comes at me with “that’s not what I’m asking.”

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Try rephrasing the question you think they’re asking. “So, you’re what’s the difference between X and Y?”

        2. KayDeeAye*

          If you are having this much of a problem understanding her, I’d recommend asking for clarification routinely. I mean, maybe not every time she asks something, but everything she asks something about which there is any possibility of confusion.

        3. Eccentric Smurf*

          Rephrasing the question before answering might help. For example:

          Her: Where is the template for TPS reports?
          You: You’re looking for the template we use for documenting new Testing Procedure Specifications?
          Her: No! Grandboss sent a memo last week about the new format for weekly QA reports.
          You: Oh, you need the new template for the weekly QA testing reports…
          Her: Yeah. Where is that?

    3. BRR*

      I don’t know if this would help in your specific scenario but I have a coworker that I circle back with. “Hey can i Finish this one thing and be by your office in a second?” But this is because I don’t think they always have formulated their specific question and this lets them focus their thoughts from the big picture to their actual question.

    4. Princesa Zelda*

      Not exactly the same, but I deal with patrons who don’t know what to ask for all the time and have got a script for that; maybe it can be adapted?

      Patron: Do you, y’know, pogroms? And school?
      Me: Are you looking for information about schools?
      Patron: No, that’s not what I asked. POG. ROMS.
      Me: What do you mean by pogroms?
      Patron: Y’know, app things!
      Me: Are you looking for a programming class?

      Don’t be afraid to ask stupid questions! If they were being clear about their initial question, they wouldn’t need all these clarifications and follow-ups. :)

    5. LKW*

      I say “Can you rephrase the question as if I’m 10 years old?” or I’ll ask them to use fewer pronouns and more formal nouns. Of course there’s the danger that it feeds into this person’s ego that you are asking them to simplify it to that level but if they can’t communicate their needs accurately, they are the ones with the problem. I also say “I’ve yet to master ESP, so I can’t read your mind. The onus of communicating your needs remains with you, not me.”

      There’s that quote by Einstein (paraphrasing here) where if you can’t manage a simple explanation for something very complicated, then you don’t really understand it yourself.

    6. Approval is optional*

      Are they a peer or above you? For a peer, I’d respond to the admonition with something along the lines of, ‘Then you need to phrase your questions better, so it’s clear what you’re actually asking’, followed up on subsequent occasions with, ‘As I’ve said before, you need to make sure your question makes sense before you ask it’. There is no reason why you should be taking the ‘blame’ for their inability/refusal to ask clear questions, or putting up with their sternness (some nerve!).
      If they are up-line from you, a more tactful, ‘We seem to have a mismatch in communication styles. Would it be possible for you to write your questions more like X than Y? (or whatever you need to be done differently’.
      I guess if you’re a nice person (I’m old, crabby, and no longer prepared to take crap from people, but YMMV), you could use the more tactful wording with a peer too. :)

    7. Quinalla*

      I had a boss during one of my summer internships in college who would ask questions confusingly and give unclear directions. I just asked clarifying questions until I was sure we were on the same page. He yelled at me and acted like I was being stupid, but at the end of the summer praised me for “standing up to him” and “not backing down”. So I think it was part his own personality, but part an almost test of sorts. It was weird, but I’d just keep clarifying and letting the rudeness roll off your back or if it gets too much, feel free to address it something like “I’m making sure I understand your question.” or “In the past when you ask questions, it hasn’t been clear what you are asking, I’m trying to save us both time by clarifying.”

    8. Argh!*

      Is this coworker from the Midwest? Or are you from the Midwest?

      Google indirect communication University of Iowa — they have a great explanation of how Midwesterners are inscrutible to the rest of us.

    9. fposte*

      Since this keeps happening and apparently you don’t realize it at the time so can’t correct, is it worth a conversation about the problem itself? “Taylor, it seems like we have trouble finding a wavelength when you ask me questions–I think I’ve understood but it turns out I haven’t, which is frustrating for both of us. Could we work together to solve this? Do you have any thoughts?”

      If the response is “You just need to listen better” then I think you can safely consider it their problem and stick to the repeating the question back then answering it method. But maybe they’ll actually contribute, and that would help both communication and any underlying relationship friction.

    10. Cartographical*

      This is in a personal relationship but:

      * time: let me get back to you, followed by…
      * shifting communication method: can you email it to me?
      * rephrasing: so, you need to know the impact of change X on event Y?
      * context: can you give me some context for this problem?
      * end game: how is this answer going to be used? what are you trying to achieve here?

      also:
      * honesty: when I answer your questions, you often tell me I’m not giving you the information you need, am I missing something?
      * observation: are they anxious? distracted? lacking a certain skill set common across questions? asking you when they could get the better answer from someone else? is taking questions to you a delaying tactic or a sign of being ill-prepared for the work?
      * more context: is it really your job to be answering these questions? if not, whose job is it?
      * reflection: are the questions the result of you communicating information in a way that leaves these things open to questions? are there other patterns in your interactions that might make this more clear? have you checked with other colleagues to see if they’re getting what they need from your interactions?

      Try not to take it personally, though it’s hard. I’ve been in a long term relationship with someone who’s terrible at asking questions or bringing up problems, often they have no idea what information they need when they first ask and it’s only after my answer eliminates some of the possibilities that they narrow down the real issue. It’s maddening and a waste of my bandwidth but when I stopped jumping to find the answers, I discovered that half the time they’d work it out themselves and many of their questions were coming from a place of not owning their own knowledge/being anxious. If you’ve checked with others and they’re satisfied with your interactions, then mark this one down as “them, not you”, focusing on minimizing the impact on your time.

    11. Nom de Plume*

      Do you HAVE to answer every one of their questions? As in, are you training them, or is it your job to field their questions? If not, given their response when you ask for clarification, I’d lean towards not answering their questions at all. Can you direct them to someone else? As in, “Gosh, that’s a good question! Try asking Sally!”

      And your comment on the long confusing whiteboard session made me think of something. Do they answer their own question after such a session? Maybe they are visual thinkers and external processors and really just need someone to bounce ideas off of. So as the bouncee, your job is to listen and pay attention, and maybe ask small clarifying questions along the way while they organize their thought process. It might feel like you’re not helping at all, but having to explain it to someone (even badly) helps some people figure out a path forward.

    12. Krabby*

      My old manager did this all the time and it was so frustrating!

      What I found worked was responding to the request with, “Excellent. I’ll start looking into how we can (insert a rephrase of the question) today and have an answer for you by tomorrow.”

      As long as my response came back to her quickly, I’d either get a, “Thanks” or, “I’m actually looking for X, thanks for your help.” That said, I think I would have been much firmer if the person was a peer instead of my manager.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      I’d love to see some examples even if they are vague restructuring of the original questions.

      I had a cohort that I just gave up on. I have never seen anything like this before. He would tell me, “We will keep the baby chicks here. ” And with that I was supposed to be informed that I needed to walk the llamas on a leash every day a noon. I tried repeating back, “But you just said we would keep the baby chicks here.” And he would get angry and say, “NO, that is NOT what I just said. I just said, ‘We will keep the baby chicks here.'” He had no idea why I did not understand I should walk the llamas at noon.
      I think we were in an alternate universe or something.

      When your cohort tells you that is not what they asked, perhaps you can say, “You know this comes up often enough that perhaps I am not the best person for you to be asking. Perhaps you should check in with other people instead of me.”

      Do stand firm when they say “that is not what I asked.”
      You: You asked me how many widgets we made this year and I answered with how many widgets we made this year. What is the question you would like me to answer?

      OR
      Hold your body position steady, do not change position as if to start to look for their answer. Then restate the question, “So you need to know how many widgets we have made so far this year?” The key here is let your body language show that you are not going to search for anything until you clearly understand the question.

      I would definitely stop guessing at what they want. You could just go with, “When you have a clear question about what you need, I will get you that answer.” And then you can just continue working while they stand there for a moment. Don’t be afraid of that preemptive strike. it’s their discomfort to wear, not YOURS.

      You: [listen to their question and you are not sure what they are asking] I am not sure what you are asking, can you reframe/shorten/be more to the point?

      These people do exist. The next time I saw this it was with a prof. omg.
      Her: “I said the sky is blue!”
      Me: “Okay so you are saying the sky is blue.”
      Her: “NO! That is NOT what I said! I said the sky is blue!”

      She had a degree in psychology. I wondered if she was running a test on me for one of her papers she wanted to write.

    14. Lilysparrow*

      Some people don’t actually know what they want unless they have something to say “no” to.

      If the various methods of clarification don’t work, maybe you could consider your first answer to be a “throwaway” that is just part of her process for clarifying her thinking.

      You can push back against the rudeness, though. “There’s no reason to use that tone. I’m literally answering the question you asked. If that’s not the information you really need, I’ll be happy to work with you until we find it.”

  20. Wannabe Citizen DS*

    In my new role, I’ll have to develop the skills of a citizen data scientist. Do you have some resources to understand what these skills are (still investigating internally with my boss) and some blogs/books/courses that you’ve found useful?

        1. still asleep*

          I’ve just dipped my toe into R, but I wanna shout out the SWIRL for helping me a lot.

            1. Wannabe Citizen DS*

              Wow, this does look great! I did a bit of R in grad school so my very memories paired with SWIRL should be a great way to start.

    2. LKW*

      Have you checked out any local citizen scientist groups and asked that question on their forums?

    4. Quill*

      Without knowing the exact field I’m not sure, but look into what nonprofit citizen science programs in your field are using in terms of courses they’re connected to at colleges, their dataset programs, their reporting and observation system.

      If it was conservation / animal or plant biology, for example, I’d strongly suggest familiarizing yourself with iNaturalist, if it’s going to be more geographic work with AGS (American Geographic Society) datasets and their website. (Or, if not in the US, an equivalent in your own country.)

      You may need more programming than VBA, but I don’t know which. I’d recommend against taking a course in a specific software until you know which one you’re going to use most.

    5. Raia*

      Whats the title/a comparable title for your new role? I want to become a data scientist but I’m currently in data analyst role and looking into these developmental roles

      1. Wannabe Citizen DS*

        I’m actually in the Learning and Development department of a software company so my title doesn’t reflect the need for DS skills.
        I will be doing trainings to customers on how to work with our software and how to manipulate data with it. Many of them are domain experts (engineers in different industries) and have some knowledge of Python, dashboarding etc., and I’ll have to be able to work with them.
        At my company, we don’t have data analysts but I thought that is a step before data scientist (we have a whole department of DS with varying degrees of experience in coding and with the different tools).
        Good luck with the transition!

  21. MsPantaloons*

    I’m job hunting with weird timing issues and need advice! I was laid off in December when the small start up I worked for went belly up. I had been there 6 months and in my previous job 5 years.

    My partner is finishing a PhD this spring and on the academic job market. If we get lucky, they’ll get a job in another state this summer. There’s probably a 20%+ chance they get nothing this summer and they stay put another year (on dark days it feels more like 80% chance they get nothing…)

    So here I am job hunting with a likely move in my future.

    1. Am I right that I can’t in good conscience go through normal applications/interviews without telling them my situation? I am in an industry where remote work is not uncommon and I would hope to take the job with me in 6 months. FWIW I’m a high performer and have always gotten outstanding reviews. If I did “spring it” on them if/when we confirm a move, there’s a good chance I’d be offered the opportunity to transition to remote, but this is obviously company specific and I would feel dishonest about it.
    2. If I do need to lay it all out there, at what stage would I do it?
    3. Would you seriously consider someone in these circumstances or be mildly annoyed that they’re wasting your time?

    I’m starting to think that contract/freelance work is my only good option. Frustratingly the areas where I’m marketable for freelance work are more technical and less interesting to me than the FT roles I’ve been seeing.

    1. BRR*

      I think you should apply anyways. The academic job market is way too competitive to put this much effort into planning on moving in six months. If your partner doesn’t have interviews at this point in the academic hiring cycle, I would definitely go ahead and apply.

    2. Colette*

      You don’t know if or when you’re moving … I’d apply anyway. You can’t put your life on hold waiting for something that may not happen on your ideal timeframe.

    3. Reba*

      Definitely apply. Searches can take a while, and if you only start in 3 months or 6 months, I think you’d regret it.

      Try to take the ‘good conscience’ framing out of your mind! You almost certainly won’t be talking about your partner in interviews so you won’t need to feel like you are lying when you don’t mention their possible job.

      This might sound negative, but it helped me… you and your partner both need to plan for if they don’t get an AC job this year. I don’t know the field of course, but i think that’s more likely than not. I think you should proceed as if there’s no job, and let it be a happy surprise if he does get a job necessitating a move. Good luck!

    4. NJBi*

      Apply anyway in case your partner doesn’t get a job this cycle. Just like others are saying, the academic job market is too tight right now to make decisions based on the assumption that your partner will get a job in one round. Especially if you’re the higher earner, which I would assume you are if your partner is in grad school, you don’t want to risk an extended period without the more interesting, probably more stable and more lucrative, more skills-building FT work.

      I wouldn’t mention your potential move to employers until you’re hired, either–the employer won’t necessarily understand the level of uncertainty in the academic market. After you’re hired, if there’s significant movement in your partner’s search/you’re able to confirm the move, you can start talking to them about potentially working remotely. I don’t see this as any more “dishonest” than job searching while trying to get pregnant–which is to say, not dishonest at all!

      (My perspective is as someone currently in the workforce who is currently waiting on PhD program admission responses, with a partner who works in a field other than academia.)

    5. Mad Woman*

      Apply anyway. Do not say a word about your situation. I was in the same boat, disclosed my situation (we’d be moving in X time due to partner’s degree- longer than your situation) and was treated terribly when I worked there. I was in a client-facing role and the owners would openly tell clients “Well, we don’t know how long she’s going to be here.” Many of my contributions were just blown off and I was treated more like an administrative assistant than an account executive. When I finally found another role and resigned, they were gobsmacked and kept saying “We thought we had you until you moved.”

      I know it feels dishonest, but they could fire you at any time and you can leave at any time. That’s business. Sending you lots of support.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Echoing what everyone says. And when you interview, pay extra attention to whether they have remote people or a generous work from home policy or anything like that.

      I wish you luck! I know all about those dark days, and it’s really, really trying. But I’ll put it this way: even when my partner was in his last year of his PhD, I still went out and made new friends. Even though we were pretty sure we were moving. But I also knew that if we stayed, I wanted my life to keep moving forward. A job is a different thing, for sure, but the ultimate idea was that I couldn’t put things on hold for uncertainty.

      1. Dasein9*

        Yes, this. There is a chance you can both get what you want. Companies are becoming more global and tech is enabling more and more remote work all the time.

    7. Marthooh*

      In good conscience, you don’t know what your circumstances will be in six months time. The companies you apply to don’t know what their needs will be in six months time — they may have to lay you off, for instance. Everyone already knows this. You’re not deceiving anyone by not mentioning it before you know for sure.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. Years ago when I was about to marry someone who expected to go to grad school out of state, I put off the job search and then he ended up not getting into the program he expected and entered a local program. I did manage to land the good job — but literally called the day they were about to award it to someone else (I had interned there and been offered earlier, but didn’t accept because we expected to move) It was pure luck that I was not shut out in a very tight market.

        Academic jobs are increasingly rare, proceed as if you will be there another year.

    8. Quinalla*

      Agree with everyone else, you do not need to (and should not) disclose that you may be moving. It isn’t a sure thing, it is only a possibility. If you were for sure moving in 6 months, you still wouldn’t have to disclose, but I would be more likely to consider disclosing at the offer stage, but even then you again don’t have to and could work with them for a few months and then bring it up after you are a bit established and ask for remote working. Do not feel bad about not telling them, you don’t know yet and when you do know, you can bring it up when it happens which as you said may actually not be for a year and a half or longer.

    9. voluptuousfire*

      Why not look at roles with remote only companies? There are tons of companies out there that offer remote roles since they’re a distributed workforce. That’s definitely an idea to consider.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve hired people who’ve left 6 months or so after hiring. They knew it wasn’t going to be a long stay with us but didn’t mention that because it’s none of our business.

      We were bummed! We liked them and they were great team members. We weren’t mad nor did we feel mislead. Anyone worth working for understands employment is a business transaction and it goes both ways.

      You’re not here for any promised amount of time unless contracts are involved.

      I get your feelings though. They’re there because that work ethic is strong. That’s not a bad thing but you’ve got to tweak it so you’re not doing damage to yourself (going without jobs, spooking prospective employers away etc) by being too forthcoming with your future possible timelines.

      1. Auto Generated Anon*

        I’ve also hired / worked with people who stay less than 6 months. For all sorts of reasons. It’s not a big deal – we’re sorry to see the ones we like leave, and happy to see the ones who weren’t performing go. Really. In one case the the 4 months we got from one person was way more valuable to us than the than the 1.5 years her successor lasted. (That’s a story in and of itself tho.)

        There’s no reason to feel like you have to share your situation or only take something that supports remote work.

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Have you considered looking for a job that is advertised for remote employee from the get-go?

    12. MissDisplaced*

      I would concentrate on the remote work jobs first, but would still apply to regular local jobs.
      It’s 6 months away, and as you said, nothing is definite at this point and you could be there another year or more.

      On the other hand, because you know this might not be a finite job, you could be more willing to take something a bit riskier or a bit of a sidestep if you don’t feel it’s a long-term career move. That could be a good thing.

      And I don’t think it’s bad faith. Many companies hire knowing they’ll have to downsize in a year or moving the office to a new location. Do they care about it? No. They just need the job filled now.

    13. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I changed jobs twice in my husband’s last year of his postdoc. I stayed on part-time at my “old” job, and covered a few random shifts there while working at my “new” job. Then, when it turned out that “new” job was a dumpster fire, I stuck it out until December when he started lining up interviews. He got enough of them that I felt confident he’d have at least one offer, so I pulled the trigger and went back to “old” job and coasted until the summer when we’d have to move. I also picked up a third job teaching for a few hours a week somewhere in there.

    14. Anona*

      Apply! And don’t say anything about the possibility of you leaving to your new company. Until your partner actually has an offer, it’s not real. Like you said, unfortunately academia is so competitive.

      It’s not dishonest to not share something that hasn’t happened yet and may not happen for another year or more. It’s kinda like pregnancy news– you shouldn’t share during an interview that you’re planning to become pregnant, because… it may not happen, or it may not follow the timeline that you want.

      People leave jobs suddenly all the time for things like this. I think you’re fine!

    15. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Full-time, tenure-track academic jobs are, relative to the number of qualified applicants, scarcer than hens’ teeth. That’s been true for decades and it isn’t changing anytime soon.

      Obviously, I don’t know your partner’s situation — including but far from limited to which field they’re in. But it’s quite possible they’ll never get a full-time tenure-track job.

      Many if not the majority of college courses these days are taught by adjunct instructors. That used to mean the adjunct instructors worked at their non-academic careers and shared their expertise part-time with the students. Nowadays, many adjuncts “teach full-time” — by teaching one course at College A, two at University B and one or two more at College C, for flat fees per course per term. That’s why they’re referred to as “freeway flyers” and “road scholars”.

      Data point: In Richard Price’s book The Breaks, the protagonist teaches one course on an adjunct basis for $2,500.00. In the fall of 1972.

      I’ve taught adjunct for less than that per course…as recently as 2009.

      The academic job market has flooded. Your partner would be well advised to — if they haven’t done this already — create a Plan B and possibly a Plan C.

      Caveat: All this applies to the United States. I don’t know the extent to which it applies elsewhere.

      In any case, best wishes to you and your partner.

  22. Bigglesworth*

    Hey everyone!

    Does anyone have any successful stories about job-hunting in a different state (or country for that matter)? I’m not sure how to get started as many jobs I see advertised don’t want a baby lawyer.

    Good things: I graduate with my J.D. in May. I’m EIC of my journal (and one of the most prestigious ones at my school other than law review) and am competing for the second year in an international arbitration competition. I worked before law school in higher ed and have worked/externed in both private practice and government. I’ve typically received exceeds expectations in any workplace, which is a nice ego boost. I also found out that I recently passed the MPRE, so that’s one less thing on my plate.

    Not Great Things: My GPA is not the best (below average) and I’m starting from ground zero with networking. We’re moving from an area with several jobs that fit my skill set to one where…I’m not seeing a whole lot (tax law). Are there secret job boards for attorneys? Or something else I’m missing?

    We’re moving to be close to my folks as my dad received a terminal diagnosis a few months ago, so I’m pretty location bound and need to be near them.

    1. Delta Delta*

      Lawyer here. Not sure what market you’re moving to, but I’ve noticed that law jobs often exist that aren’t published. Sometimes smaller firms are able/willing to take someone on without actually posting an opening. That doesn’t mean you need to/should start cold-calling firms, but if you can figure out networking from where you are, you may get some word of mouth leads. If there is a local/city/county bar association, join it.

      Alternatively, you can also consider positions that you may not think are going to be exactly the right fit. Lots of people come out of law school thinking they’re going to do X law, and instead end up doing something entirely different for a little while (or forever. ask me how I know). And if you think you may be interested in civil litigation, you may want to consider working in a prosecutor or public defense office for a few years. You’ll never go to court as a baby civil lawyer; you’ll never leave court as a baby prosecutor. If that’s not your long term jam, at least you’ll have a lot of experience when you transition into private practice. You may also want to consider other public interest-type work in the area for a little while until you can feel out the general job landscape.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thanks for the ideas! I‘ll be moving to the city of country music and spicy fried chicken (pretty sure that gives it away). I already belong to the state and local bar associations, but the positions I’m seeing on their job boards still require a minimum of 2-4 years of legal work experience. I’m also open to pursuing other legal practice areas as my location is much more important than what specific practice area I’m in.

        That said, do you think that any organization would be interested in hiring a new grad with no trial ad experience? My only legal advocacy experience is in commercial arbitration and I’ll be taking a course on mediation this spring. I’ve received high marks when I’ve had to present or compete against my classmates in a small setting, but that’s about it.

          1. NotAnotherManager!*

            Honestly, a lot of big companies outsource specialized work like tax law because they don’t need that skill full-time. Many in-house counsel are generalists and deal with contracts, employment disputes, etc. plus managing outside counsel when more specialized or higher-volume assistance is needed.

            That said, tax law is a specialty that always seem to be in good demand. When my mother needed one several years ago, it was fairly expensive because so few attorneys specialized in that particular area of law.

            1. Bigglesworth*

              That’s been my understanding. I fell into tax law quite by happenstance and have just enjoyed learning the intricacies of this type of law. Like NotAnotherManager! said, most companies outsource tax law because it’s so specialized. There are also two main types of employers – law firms and accounting firms. Both typically want tax LLM graduates or the top 10% of a class. Since I don’t satisfy either of those reqs, I havent been applying to the jobs that require them.

              The other area I’ve enjoyed working in is estate planning. It’s also quite fun when someone asks me what I want to do and I can say either death or taxes.

      2. MysteryFan*

        I would also check out USAJOBS.. there are many government agencies that hire lawyers, and IRS is among them. They have an entire Chief Counsel’s office to litigate tax disputes, and give advice on the implications of various regulations. In addition, the Estate and Gift section hires baby lawyers to do basically the job of a Revenue Agent, but for E&G returns rather than Income or Corporate tax. The government doesn’t pay astronomically well, but leave is pretty good, insurance is really good, and there’s a matching 401K type retirement plan. And there is almost never any demand to work insane hours (looking at you private practice!)

        1. Bigglesworth*

          Do you think I could find those jobs in TN? I was honestly hoping to work for the Feds after graduation, but had written it off for now. Also, what kind of job title would I look for? Attorney or agent?

    2. legalchef*

      I’d suggest reaching out to your career services people to see if they have any ideas about where you can look for jobs in your new location. Obviously if you are going to practice in the new state you will need to take the bar exam there. You also asked if people had advice for looking for a job in a different country, but besides visa etc concerns, you’d likely also need to figure out what their requirements are to become one with a degree from where you are.

      I’d check all the usual online places, plus if your school is set up with Symplicity (I think that’s what’s it’s called, It’s been over a decade since I was in school).

      If there is a tax law group in the local bar assoc where you will be moving, you can also reach out to the folks there and see what suggestions they have.

      I’m sorry to hear about your dad.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        The suggestion that legalchef makes here to find the tax law group in the local bar association is what I was coming to say. Most such groups in major cities meet at least once a month and that is the best networking. I also second Delta Delta about being open to possibilities. I fully expected and went to school and focused in school on intellectual property and I’m happily a banking attorney. Be open to opportunities and you might be surprised.

        1. Bigglesworth*

          Thank you both for the ideas. I hadn’t thought to look to see if the bar association had a tax specific subgroup that I could belong to. I’ll do that this evening (I’m on the road for most of today to spend a week with my folks). For some reason, I forgot about that entirely even though I’m part of the bar association where in the state where my school is located. I’m also willing to look outside of tax law, but I’ve spent so much time in my tax courses that I don’t have a wide breadth of material that I’ve studied.

          As far as Symplicity goes, it’s been a complete dud. I’m currently working with career services on reciprocity, but the closest school willing to offer it to me is two hours away from where I’ll be moving to. The main school in that city won’t accept current students – only graduates – and the other schools don’t provide reciprocity at all.

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      I’m sorry to hear about your dad.

      I also had to job search in a totally new area where I had no contacts after law school. Here’s what I did: asked my law school to get me access to the local law school’s job postings, apply online remotely (did not result in any hits), reach out to alum in the area (this was very helpful). Based on the alum’s advice, I went door to door with my resume and got an unposted job with a small practice, which ended up being an amazing fit and experience. I am not suggesting you go door to door- in most markets that would be considered more than a little strange. But if you have any law school alum in the area it may help! Also, might not hurt to reach out to your summer job mentors/contacts and ask if they have any contacts in the area. When I had to move a second time to a new state, I took a less than desirable position, passed the local bar, and through a friend of a friend secured an interview for a position I had already applied for, which I adore.

      Also seconding suggestions to network with the local bar and be open to different areas of practice. If there are any pro bono opportunities that can be a great way to meet local lawyers and get the scoop on job postings as well.

      Wishing you the best of luck.

      1. Amy Sly*

        And absolutely worst case scenario: doc review. It’s not glamorous, but the pay isn’t that much worse than many baby lawyer jobs. You can get to know major companies in your area, meet with various inhouse and outside counsels, and your fellow doc reviews may surprise you in terms of their background. One of my good doc review friends turned out to have been a retired entertainment law guy who did doc review to get out of the house but have a job that never followed him home, and he had useful contacts and advice for baby lawyers. And having worked on a couple of big environmental cases gave me a useful background for understanding some of the work I do now as a contract admin.

        1. Bigglesworth*

          Thank you both for your advice! I’ll try again to reach out to alumni living in that area. I’ve looked on LinkedIn, but I currently attend a state school where most graduates stay locally (currently next door to D.C.). I also realized that I haven’t updated my mentors and supervisors about my move at all – they still think I’m trying to get into the IRS or Dept. of Treasury. *facepalm* I’ll have to do that this upcoming week when I’m visiting my folks. I’ve been so busy just coping that apparently common sense concerning networking abandoned me.

          Also, I’ve heard of doc review and know what it is, but how could I get a job doing that? Are the jobs typically posted on Symplicity or are there companies that are known for doing doc review?

          1. Amy Sly*

            So to take a real case I worked on: Apple announces that yes, they changed the way iPhone 4s and 5s worked to throttle their speed. People sue Apple saying it was a malicious attempt to force upgrades. Apple replies that they only did it to stop the 4s and 5s from randomly shutting down. Apple needs to prove that, so their counsel sends over a couple million documents from the computers of everyone who worked on the problem during the relevant timeframe. Your job as the doc reviewer is to go through those documents, looking for anything that proves or disproves Apple’s arguments. (And any other shady things that Apple would want to know about. Seems like everyone who works doc review finds at least one inappropriate employee relationship at some point.)

            I found my doc review job via Craigslist, actually. (I had moved to the DC area to get a job and had no luck at all, but I figured anyone advertising on the DC Craigslist for a job in a city seven hours away might not be super picky, and I was right.) Doc review is at this weird intersection of employee and contractor — at my office, everyone was an employee of one of five different placement firms (Diamond Personnel was mine) who was contracted to work at a doc review company, and there were three major doc review places in the area. People would bounce between offices as projects started and stopped, though I found that a reputation for working hard and being reliable meant I was furloughed as little as possible between projects. (e.g. I was hired for a “two week project” and had only two furloughed days for my first year there.)

          2. NotAnotherManager!*

            There are companies that are known for doing document review. Search for “ediscovery” and “managed review” or even just “document review”, and you’ll come up with hits. Some big ones are Epiq, Xact, Consilio, and KLDiscovery, but there are also local/regional staffing organizations that keep databases of reviewer resumes for projects.

      2. Now in the Job*

        Seconding hard the “find an alum locally.” We love talking to baby lawyers.

        Any way possible that you can meet with a local attorney and gauge the environment as well, ask how people find work, whether they know anyone who might be hiring for an entry level attorney. See if your folks know anyone who knows an attorney who would be willing to talk to you. Tell everyone you can. I have a friend who got her first job that she had for 7 years because the doorman at her apartment heard her looking and connected her to her now-former-boss for some temporary help. Then she was pulled in full time.

        Sign up for Posse List if it’s in your area. Temp work is temp work, but I’ve had two temp positions roll to perm. Doc review is almost a rite of passage. Plus you’ll meet other attorneys, especially if your doc review is for a law firm (though it may be tougher to do that on JD Required jobs before you have your license.)

        Don’t wait to take the bar exam. Don’t. Wait.

        1. Now in the Job*

          Also willing to chat with you if you’re planning to move to the Washington, D.C. area. I’m sorry to hear about your father. :(

          1. Bigglesworth*

            Hey Now in the Job! Thank you so much for your offer, condolences, and advice. Unfortunately, I’m moving away from Washington, D.C. (where I was hoping to practice) to TN. I’ve been very fortunate to have had opportunities here throughout my entire time living here and I thought that I would have the same opportunities post-grad. That said…

            I’ll have to look into Posse List. I’m not above temp work and if I don’t find anything before graduation, I know that this will be a likely source of income. I’m also trying to meet up with a local attorney who works for the State Dept. of Revenue/Finance (he’s a connection through a team member in last year’s competition), but he hasn’t responded to my initial email reaching out. I need to follow up since it’s been two weeks and I’m sure everyone’s life has been crazy around the holidays. Normally, any attorney I reach out to has responded pretty quickly, so it’s weird to not get a response at all.

            1. Now in the Job*

              Bad two weeks in which to reach out, most likely they weren’t even in the office. But did your team member do an introduction, or confirm that person is willing to meet with you first? I definitely have a sour taste in my mouth to the person who emailed me without any sort of heads up from my actual contact. If that process was followed though, I’d follow up with a quick happy new year, see if they got your last email message.

              Posse List has listings for doc review gigs and temp jobs. I’m not sure about the TN market, but you can sign up now if you want just to get a sense of how they flow. When PL sends out an email though, be prepared to respond *immediately.* They have a massive network, so doc reviews get filled very quickly.

              Keep an eye on USAJobs too. They post regionally, so there are some fed positions that would be located in TN as well.

              Good luck!

              1. Bigglesworth*

                Our mutual contact definitely did a connection email! Although I’ve cold-emailed people in the past, I hate doing it because I never know how it’ll be received. And I figured that it was going to be a tough few weeks to get a hold of anybody, but I definitely need to do a follow-up.

                And thank you for the USAjobs reminder. I’ve typically checked every few weeks or so, but I need to buckle down and check it more often so I don’t miss any opportunities

            2. MysteryFan*

              I posted above about the Internal Revenue Service and other Federal agencies on USAJOBS, but the State tax agency is also a good idea. And most of those jobs are publicly posted.

        2. Amy Sly*

          Yeah, I had absolutely no idea how much harder it would be to pass a bar exam years after graduation. Passed the first one taken after graduation just fine; failed the second taken five years later.

          1. Bigglesworth*

            Not taking the bar exam immediately sounds terrifying. Even if I end up in a J.D.-preferred position, I still plan on taking the bar exam as soon as possible just to have it in my back pocket.

    4. Anon Lawyer in PA Who Also Used to Live in WA*

      Join the state bar association and also the local county/city bar association if there is one; they probably have job boards you can read and post to.

      Join the bar associations’ tax law sections (or committees or whatever they call them), lurk on the e-mail lists to see if anyone posts a job opening, and attend the meetings.

      For a networking opportunity going forward, next year dig the social services non-profits in your new area and see if they offer tax clincs where you can volunteer to assist in tax prep.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Hey Anon Lawyer – Thanks so much for the ideas. I’ll try to see if there are any tax clinics where I’ll be moving to. I know there are several where I currently live, but wasn’t sure if I would find any there. My hope is to be done with unpaid work once I have graduated in May, but know that I’ll most likely have to fill a pro bono hours requirement so volunteering there may be my way into the tax law practice area.

    5. Amy Sly*

      Don’t want to piggy-back too much here, but do folks have any suggestions for someone who’s still a “baby lawyer” well after graduation and a long way physically from their law school?

      1. Now in the Job*

        I have a friend who was a paralegal for five years before getting a job as an attorney. I don’t have any advice per se–she worked in a fed office while getting her LLM, then got the job on the VA Appeals Board when one of her closest friends left, and feds love hiring feds–but know that it can happen. Talk to people, meet as many attorneys as you can, maintain those friendships. That’s really the best advice I have.

    6. Sunflower*

      Have you talked to Career Services or any of your professors? I think they would be your best bet on what steps to take next.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Career Services were some of the first people I told. They’ve been trying to work with me on finding positions or people to network with, but I think they’re struggling too. I’m working with someone in CAS who is in charge of the reciprocity program, but the closest school that is willing to work with mine is two hours away from where my folks live and that’s a bit too far for me. We’re hoping that this school’s job board will still have opportunities in the city I plan on moving to.

        I’ve also alerted my professors. Two of them are my coaches for the Vis Moot competition and they’ve offered to put me in contact with some construction firms/attorneys they know. With it being the holidays, we all agreed to delay any introductions until everyone is back in the office again. I’ve very much enjoyed working with them on both last year’s problem and this year’s problem and one of them has agreed to be a reference for me. I tried to contact a different professor that I’ve had who actually moved last year to the city that I’ll be moving to, but he hasn’t responded to any of my efforts to reach out.

        1. CM*

          Sounds like you’re doing great.

          I would not rely on Career Services or anything specific to your school — my experience is that they are not helpful if you’re in an unfamiliar market or are looking for anything other than very established firms and companies.

          You’ve gotten a lot of good suggestions already — professors, alums, bar association contacts.

          Could you find an alum in your new city who worked on your journal?

          Also, you never know which DC lawyers may have TN contacts! You could try networking locally — go to the DC Bar tax conference, show up at meetings, tell everybody you meet your situation and say that if they know anybody in TN, you would love for them to put you in touch. Bring cards and hand them out. As a law student I may have been too shy to do this, but now I’d be totally happy to help out somebody who approached me like this, and I’ve met so many other established lawyers who genuinely enjoy helping out baby lawyers in any way they can. So, don’t be afraid to network. It’s actually much easier if you have a specific ask, versus just wanting to meet people.

    7. Blarg*

      Look at government jobs — local, county, state, fed. They care less about class rank. And have more structured hiring — who you know matters way less. And the work life balance maybe better for you, so you can spend the time with your family you want. You don’t have to prove yourself with 100 hour weeks. A friend was in a similar situation years back, but with young kids, and she got a job doing tax work for a large city, worked 40 hours a week, and when her kids started school and she wanted more, she was snapped up by a firm eager for her knowledge and experience in government. Now she’s a partner there.

    8. Coverage Associate*

      There’s a way to search firms/lawyers by law school in Lexis. Get career services or a Lexis rep to teach you how.

      Also, ask career services about getting you reciprocity with career services of a Tenn school. Basically, the career services of the Tenn school would treat you as one of their own alumni, in exchange for the expectation your school would treat one of theirs in the future.

      FWIW, I went to law school in Virginia having spent all my life in California (with some professional contacts) and didn’t find a California law job until October after graduation. I got my first 2 lawyer jobs through Craigslist.

  23. LilacLily*

    This is a question for the British readers of AAM: I was just hired by a company in the south of England and my first day is January 8th. Last month, after I was offered the job, I asked HR about benefits, like how regularly salary is paid, and he informed me that salaries are paid once a month on the 21st, but payroll will have been already processed by the time my first day rolls around, so my first salary will only be deposited on February 21st, along with February’s salary.

    Can they do that? Is this normal? Even better, is it legal? That’s going to put a huge wrench in my plans because I’m relocating from abroad for this job and funds are kinda low, especially because, as you all know, cities in the south charge a pretty penny on rent, and getting paid on time would’ve been super helpful to say the least. I believe I will be able to make it through this next month and a half, but not without some struggle. I really wish I was being paid on January 21st.

    Do I have any say in this, maybe any sort of negotiating power with HR? Or do I have to suck it up and hold on as best as I can?

    (Also I can’t help but think that, had I not asked about benefits when I did, I don’t think they would’ve told me this before I arrived in the UK, which would’ve scared the crap out of me and really screwed me up by then because I would’ve made all my plans around the idea that I would be paid by the end of the month. Not the best way to start a new job I guess, but I’m trying to remain positive.)

    1. Historic Hamlet Dweller*

      They can do it, it’s legal but it’s not normal. We’ve got loads of staff starting in the next couple of weeks and they’ll all get paid on our usual paydate at the end of January.

      They *should* have already processed your new starter paperwork well before payroll closes/closed. If they can’t do anything about it, ask for an advance that’s about equal to your take home salary for the 3 weeks you’ve worked (google Listen to Taxman – it’s about the most accurate calculator we have). That should be something that they have the processes in place for. Don’t make a big deal of it, or apologise, just ask for it as if it’s totally normal.

    2. AW*

      It’s legal to do and I’ve had similar situations when moving jobs.

      You can ask if HR can make a payment to you at the end of January, the worst they can do is say no.

      If you’ve opens a UK bank account you might be able to arrange an overdraft with them so you’ve got access to some cash, but as a new customer they might not offer much.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      What they said.

      But it’s very common for a company to expect to process an advance when a new starter misses the payroll deadline, so you should be very confident to ask for an ad-hoc cheque to arrive either with everyone else’s pay slips on 21 Jan, or at the end of January (so your February pay will be a clean month’s worth). This is a totally standard request that should be absolutely within their power.

      The script/tone for this would be Alison’s classic “this is a totally reasonable request so I am asking with a bright, polite smile on my face and anticipate no problems”.

    4. Ruth (UK)*

      I work administratively at a (UK) university and it doesn’t sound super odd to me unfortunately – they’re quite specific and uncompromising about payroll deadlines where I work. That said, they might agree to advance you some of the money

    5. Everdene*

      Unfortunately this happens all the time. You will also find that your February salary is taxed at a higher rate (depending on bracket) because it is calculated as if you earned the 7 weeks money in 4, and will continue to be paid at that rate. I definitely think it’s worth asking for an advance, but be prepared the answer could well be no.

      1. Linda*

        Does that mean its normal to only get paid once a month in the UK? That sounds terribly frustrating. Most US states require that most employees be paid at least biweekly.

        1. LilacLily*

          in the country where I’m from it’s the same; usually companies pay their employees either once or twice a month. I don’t mind it, but right now I kinda wish this one paid at least twice a month lol

        2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          They’re moving to pay benefits monthly, would you believe?! It’s based on the middle class assumption that most major bills (rent/mortgage and utilities) are monthly, so you sync your payment dates around your pay – eg paid on 21st, bills come out 23rd-25th.

          1. Ruth (UK)*

            Yes I also never realised it was uncommon to be paid monthly. However, I was paid fortnightly in retail. But monthly in all jobs since

          2. Linda*

            Interesting. I’ve worked in 6 different states and only ever been paid biweekly. You must work in one of the few that doesn’t require that.

            1. Hamburke*

              Many states have exceptions to the “twice a month” rule for highly compensated employees although few employers take advantage of this – it’s easier to pay everyone at the same time. My husband used to be paid once a month – it actually worked out nicely after we got in a rhythm – all bills were paid by the 5th and then I could budget the remainder for the rest of the month. Switching jobs to a semimonthly cycle was ok – I had to call to change some bill due dates and there was no rhyme or reason for when payroll was deposited if the 1st or 15th fell on a weekend or holiday. But switching again to biweekly involved the most thought when it came to budgeting…

        5. NeverNicky*

          Monthly is absolutely normal in the UK for “white collar” jobs – the only time I’ve ever had anything else was when I worked through a temp agency and was paid weekly.

          1. Linda*

            How awful. You usually hear about the UK having better protections than the US, so this is really surprising to me. It must make things really difficult for people who live paycheck to paycheck.

            1. AnonyNurse*

              It’s the same amount of money. When I was living paycheck to paycheck, I preferred monthly pay. I knew exactly how much I’d get and when, and that was it. My least favorite was every two weeks/26 pay periods cause some months you’d get a third check and the deductions were weird and it felt like extra money but wasn’t. Awaiting the first check can be rough in any gig, especially when paid monthly, but I’d rather be paid monthly given a choice.

              1. Linda*

                Well, the more often you’re paid, the more control you have over your own money. I can’t imagine any scenario where I would prefer being paid less often. Once you have it, you can choose whether or not to use it. 

                I’m not sure what you mean about weird deductions. Whenever I’ve received a third pay check in one month, its always exactly the same as the others. I set up my monthly budget based on getting two paychecks a month so when I get a third one, I actually do treat it like “extra” money— either put it in my vacation fund or my savings account. 

                1. Natalie*

                  Many companies calculate some deductions based on 24 paychecks a year even though they issue 26. So the last paycheck in your two 3-paycheck months will be higher than normal because health insurance premiums, etc are not deducted.

                  A similar thing can happen in the rarer circumstance of getting 27 paychecks a year – you won’t have tax withholding because biweekly withholding amounts are calculated assuming 26 paychecks.

                2. Hamburke*

                  Weird deductions for 3rd checks in a biweekly pay cycle are usually benefits related, not tax related and are less common recently.

              2. LilacLily*

                Same here. I’ve had jobs that paid twice a month and jobs that paid once a month, and I always preferred being paid once a month so I know exactly how much I have throughout the month for bills and extras.

            2. Stardust*

              It really doesn’t, and it’s somewhat strange to call it “awful”. I’m from a place where literally every job pays monthly. In fact I didn’t even know there are other ways of doing it until i started reading Ask A Manager. It’s the only thing I’ve ever known and really not something to be upset about. I’ve lived paycheck-to-pacheck for a long time and if i overspent at the beginning of the month that was on me–it’s not my employer’s job to make me handle my money responsibly.

              1. Linda*

                I guess for me, I see it as awful because I wouldn’t want my employer controlling my money for an entire month when more frequent payments are very easy to process. I get what you mean about just preferring the method you’re used. There are a lot of US-specific things that get discussed here that non-American commenters think are crazy (like not having an employment contract) that are just normal and I wouldn’t want to be another way.

              2. londonedit*

                Really late here, but yeah, it’s not ‘awful’, it’s the way things are done here and it works for most people. Do you also pay rent/mortgages fortnightly in the USA? My rent is paid monthly, and so are mortgages for people who own houses. Most of my bills are automatically taken from my bank account on a monthly basis (some every three months but that’s rare), and you can set those direct debits to go out on a specific day of the month, so you just time it to be after pay day. Then you know how much money you have to last until the next pay day. No big deal. Personally I think I’d find it much more difficult to always remember to save a chunk of my salary to pay my rent – it wouldn’t leave me with much left out of a fortnight’s pay!

            3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

              In the UK most monthly-paid people pay the bulk of their major expenses monthly (eg rent or mortgage, communications, utility bills, car insurance) and automatically – “direct debit” on set days of the month rather than having to sit down and actively pay bills when you remember to make time. The daily/ weekly expenses are the more discretionary ones, so yes you might be eating ramen or beans on toast by the last week, but you know your rent is paid. Also your tax is deducted at source and dynamically, so most people don’t have to save for a tax bill and can’t look forward to a rebate!

              When I was an office temp, paid weekly, I would have a week each month where every penny disappeared to the landlady before I had even really seen it. I found that far harder than having to stretch my food budget to the end of the month. However, I am not famous for being good at budgeting.

              I think that generally in the UK salary comes monthly and wages come weekly. Also, paying for things weekly or ad hoc is more expensive than monthly/ annually.

        6. Jessi*

          Unfortunately it’s so so so super common to get paid monthly In the UK! My payslip gets issued around the 25th and I am normally paid the last working day of the month.

          My partner gets paid weekly and it’s weird to budget around that as all our bills are paid monthly

        7. Bagpuss*

          Yes, monthly is normal for a lot of jobs – I think it is (or was) more common for ‘blue collar’ type jobs to be weekly, but monthly is pretty standard. Even the Saturday job I had as a teenager was paid monthly, as I recall.
          But it is also common for things like rent, as well as mortgages, to be paid monthly.
          I think I’d find it more frustrating to be paid weekly or fortnightly and have to work out how much to set aside for bills etc! I guess it all depends on what you are used to.

    6. Another Sarah*

      Yeah totally normal except for the fact that they’re processing payroll way way ahead of payment. It’s normally about a week’s difference so they can account for new starters/leavers/temp sick days/prorated time off etc more accurately. But if you’re not working in Finance or HR, that’s not your problem.

      You can ask for an advance, or a temporary overdraft with your bank, or if you think you can manage, soldier on.

      But I would be tempted to double check that that’s actually correct, because it is very unusual for the payroll to be processed more than two weeks before the payment deadline.

      1. AL (the other one)*

        +1 for this.

        It is normal in the UK to be paid monthly, but if you’ve started on the 8th they should be able to include you into the payroll of 21st.
        And if not, then they should have a manual process to part pay…

    7. Mx*

      I am not entirely sure it is legal in the UK. Do you know ACAS ? They give free advice about employment law. You can call them on 0300 123 11000.

    8. Bagpuss*

      Its a long delay between the cut off date and the pay date but it isn’t unusual, or illegal.
      It’s worth asking whether they are able to provide an advance, or failing that you may well be able to arrange an overdraft with your bank if you need to, especially if you can provide them with proof of the new job and your income.
      Good luck with the new job.

    9. Peter*

      Following up on the comments above, the request back to the HR contact is that he arranges an advance on (say) 31st January to cover that month’s salary.
      The way we do this (multi-national company, often recruiting from abroad) is that in the first month we’ll get payroll to estimate the net pay due (i.e. after taxes, social charges, pension costs etc) and then pay a lump sum amount.
      If this is your first job in the UK, you’ll get 10/12 of the tax-free amount in your first paypacket, so you’ll probably find that the net pay bounces around a bit. The first “normal” month will be April, which is the start of our tax year.

  24. BRR*

    After being laid off from an incredibly toxic job early last year, I’m thankfully in a job where my work is highly valued, my coworkers are nice and good at their jobs, and I have a much better commute. The moderately big downside is it’s a step backwards in turns of both salary (20% cut) and responsibilities. After four years in a job that took a huge toll on my mental and physical health, I’d love to just have the philosophy of money isn’t everything but I’m just not content with this low of a position. There’s no hope of growth or mobility here and I work in a fairly niche field so there aren’t any roles that I can apply for anytime soon in my field. Any tips on minimizing my dissatisfaction?

    1. Cleopatra*

      If you have been there for a year, and if you have made some good achievements, you can perhaps ask for a salary increase. You can perhaps start with 7 or 10% in your request ? You said that there is no place for mobility, so I will not suggest that you change positions internally fduring 2020. That would have helped in increasing your salary.

      If the money issue is really important for you (which is very normal!) and is impacting your life, you can also start looking for a job elsewhere.

      But in all cases, you should never feel stuck where you are. Sure, things sometimes take time to change (either the salary or the job), but eventually you will get your 20% (or more!) back. This is only a phase. A phase from which you can do your best to get out (talk to management, try and look for other jobs) and with time it shall happen!

    2. Diahann Carroll*

      Go hard on your hobbies in your spare time so you won’t harp on how much you dislike your work life. Also look into taking online courses or even in person classes in subjects you’re interested in that don’t necessarily align with your current career – this will help you to stop defining yourself by what you do versus who you actually are as a person.

      If you’re like me and that last part is simply impossible, you may have to consider switching career fields into something else with more advancement opportunities.

    3. MissGirl*

      Do you make enough to fit your needs and some wants?

      I was in your position for a number of years until I realized my cost of living was going up faster than my salary. My dreams of a home and some travel were moving farther away. I tried job hunting but my skills were niche. Then I moonlighted in a hobby job but that didn’t make up the gap. I also tried freelancing.

      I finally gave up and found a new career. I don’t love it quite as much but the trade off was worth it.

      I would figure out what your priorities are. When your frustrated remind yourself why you’ve made the trade off. Those may change over time.

    4. Quinalla*

      I like the others’ suggestions, but also what about learning new things in your field? Would your company reimburse you for professional development? I know it isn’t the same as advancing your position or a salary increase, but at least if you can continue to improve in your career it may make it easier to get salary increases and to not feel so stagnant.

      I do also like the idea of starting a big personal project, maybe something that might make you money, maybe not depending on what is most important to you. There are lots of ways to grow personally outside of your current job that can help with your future career.

  25. A Certain Someone*

    My office just upgraded from Office 2010 to Office 2016 (or maybe 2019?), and also from Windows who-knows-what-year to Windows 10. I’m a Mac user at home, so I’m on a bit of a learning curve and wondering if anyone has any favorite tips, shortcuts, tricks, etc. that I might not know about or might find helpful? I’m especially interested in Outlook/email-related suggestions, tips, “hacks,” etc.
    On a related note, it’s driving me crazy that the zoom in/zoom out shortcuts (Ctrl+Scroll mouse wheel or Ctrl + “+/-“) no longer work with for viewing the Outlook email list, but rather only for the email preview & viewing pane, but based on my research that is (maddeningly) by design.
    Thanks in advance for your Windows 10 or Outlook tips!

    1. Princesa Zelda*

      For myself, my favorite trick is once you hit the start button on the keyboard, you can simply type in the name of the program you want; no looking for it required! Several of my coworkers also use pin-to-Start for all the programs they use frequently; that puts them nice and big on the “sidebar” part of the start menu.

      1. KarenK*

        Being able to “pin” both apps and documents that are used frequently has been a huge time-saver for me. The apps are pinned to the menu bar and the documents are pinned within the apps.

    2. Sharkey*

      Here are a few Win10 features that I use: When you click Start to launch an application, you can just start typing its name instead of scrolling through the list and clicking it. Click the clock in the lower right corner to see a pop up calendar. You can also set up additional time zones that display on the pop up so you don’t have to constantly do the math to figure out what time it is for your coworker in another country.

    3. Helvetica*

      Tips on Outlook (sorry if you know them already, these have just helped me a bunch):
      *Outlook is great a sorting e-mails by keywords so I have set up a couple dozen of them (File – Manage Rules & Alerts), and this automatically sorts my e-mail into different subfolders in the inbox, such as press releases, memos, briefing requests. You can sort by keywords, senders, addressees, etc. This only works if you actually go into those folders, ofc, but for me, it alleviates a great deal of my “There are 99 unread e-mails!” anxiety if I know that half of them are press releases, which I don’t *need* to read immediately. But I am the person who can’t stand the red notifications of unread e-mails so YMMV.
      *If you want to save an e-mail on your computer but not in the Outlook format, open the e-mail, click File – Print, from the drop-down printer menu choose “Microsoft Print to PDF” – choose location and voila, you have a PDF version of the e-mail without it being in .msg format. Especially good if you need to archive things for future use/future people and it might get difficult to open them in .msg format after some time.
      *If you need to find an e-mail and you know the two keywords, like “VP visit”, you can search for it from the regular search function but be sure to use the quotes to find the exact phrase. This guarantees that Outlook searches for both of these words at the same time and not separately. Same principle as using Google search function, and you can also utilize AND, OR, NOT, for more specific results. Office support has a very handy overview of all of these.
      *And if your organisation uses the calendar function so people can see each other’s, make sure your calendar permissions are set so that it would actually work. Fx, anyone can see the busy/free time on my calendar but only my immediate team can see the topic of the meetings I have and/or location (just for my boss). This may be organisation-specific but it makes things so much easier if you want to know where someone is/when they’ll be back and if you organisation generally expects such knowledge to be shared.

      2. Meow*

        OH MY GOD the outlook search tip!! Why did I never thing of that? I’ve always complained about how truly awful the search function is…you may have changed my life. brb going to search all kinds of things to test this out.

    4. Phoenix Wright*

      Here are some Windows shortcuts I use all the time (“Win” is the key with the Windows logo between Ctrl and Alt):
      – Win + D: minimizes all windows and shows the desktop. Pressing it again restores all minimized windows.
      – Win + E: opens the file explorer
      – Win + Shift + S (only works with the latest Windows 10 updates): lets you take a screenshot of the screen, by drawing a rectangle with the mouse. You can then paste it on any other program.
      – Win + P: if you have more than one screen, it lets you change video output modes. You can choose between only one screen, duplicating the image, or extending the desktop between all of them.
      – Win + L: locks the computer. Very useful if your work requires that you leave your PC locked when you’re away from your desk.
      – Win + 1 (or any other number): opens or gives focus to the respective program in the taskbar.
      – Win + R: lets you execute any program with administrative privileges.

      1. A Certain Someone*

        Ooo — I only knew Win + L — going to print this list and try them out! Thanks!

    5. Garland Not Andrews*

      My best Outlook tip is for searching. The general search is rather anemic, so I use “Advanced Search”.

      The shortcut is CTRL+SHIFT+F. The dialog box has lots of search options.

    6. A Certain Someone*

      Thank you so much for the great tips — keep ’em coming! And I’m glad they have helped other readers too. :)
      I should mention my favorite Outlook trick, which is to set up a “rule” that delays all sent emails by 2 min (they sit in my outbox). This has saved me from many mistakes that could have caused problems or embarrassment! You can set the delay for any amount of time you wish, but I played around with that and found that 2 min works perfectly for me.
      A couple pointers if you use this tip:
      • If you regularly use the “Delay Delivery” feature, where you schedule emails to go out at a specific future time, this function won’t work unless you turn off the rule. (The 2-min delay overrides the scheduled future time.)
      • Sometimes you want an email to go out right away (like if you’re on a conference call and emailing a document to discuss right that moment), which makes the delay a minor nuisance. As a workaround, I set up an exception to the rule so that any email marked as “high importance” will send out immediately.

      My other favorite trick is Conditional Formatting — I love it! All my emails from my manager show up in my inbox as underlined, and I have a “category” that makes any email in assigned this category show as bold navy font one or two points larger than the rest, when I want it to stand out. And all sorts of color-coding according to certain words for the different grants I manage. I probably go overboard but I love Conditional Formatting!

    7. A Certain Someone*

      A couple more:
      • In Outlook , to the right of the little calendar icon at the bottom of your screen (below the list of folders), there are 3 dots. Right-click the dots, select “Navigation Options,” and uncheck the box for “Compact Navigation.” This replaces the small icons with bigger words that are more user-friendly.
      • In Excel, for years I thought there was no easy way to open two docs side by side. Well, there is a way! If you open one document, then open a brand new Excel window directly from the application icon, then open the second doc from this new window. Game changer!

    8. dealing with dragons*

      window+shift+s lets you screenshot onto your clipboard, like command+shift+4 on the mac. love it!

      and if you just hit windows you get the same functionality as command+space on mac

    9. fogharty*

      I am a longtime Mac user who is on Windows at work. The best thing I’ve found was a little third-party app called SharpKeys (randyrants.com) that lets me reconfigure my Windows keyboard to act more like my Mac one. So the Windows key acts like the alt, the alt key acts like the Control key, etc. This means I don’t have to change my muscle memory for keyboard shortcuts between my work Windows and my home Mac.
      (You could do the opposite, of course, and reconfigure your Mac keyboard to act like the Windows one; that is already built in in your System Preferences)
      I’ve been using this app for years, and if I can’t load new software myself our IT people have always done it for me with no problems.

      Apple’s website has a “conversion table” of Mac vs. Windows terms and functions that you might find helpful as well. (https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/whats-it-called-on-my-mac-cpmh0038/10.15/mac/10.15)

  26. Puzzled*

    At my previous company the employees have organised a monthly book club after work. It takes place in the break room after hours and is entirely self-organised. There is no official involvement from management or the company itself. Management knows about it but doesn’t participate.

    I started a new job at a different company a few weeks ago.
    I am the first participant who left the company. Previous employees are often invited to farewell parties or such (my old teammate came for mine, for example) and they often come. The farewell parties also take place after hours in the break room and are self-organised as well. The company started out as a tech start-up, with all the easy-going, bro-ish culture that comes with it. Even if management doesn’t like something like that they would never say anything because they don’t want to be seen as boorish or uncool.

    I’ve been invited to next week’s book club meeting and I would love to go, I’m just unsure if it’s a good idea. Is it unprofessional to visit your previous company once a month, even if it’s in a purely social context?

    2. Another Sarah*

      I think there’s nothing wrong in principle, but you and the other book club members probably need to decide if it’s a *work* book club or a social book club that happens at work.

      I’ve seen it happen that old employees are invited for one or two things after but they tend to trail off quite quickly as their new workplace takes over – this seems different somehow because it’s an ongoing commitment?

      If you decide it’s a work thing, I’d probably stop going. If you decide it’s a social thing, I’d probably suggest you start holding it somewhere else just to remove the doubt, because it’s one thing for them not to say anything, but it’s another for them not to think anything, and you don’t want your relationships with your references to be awkward.
      It does also depend on the culture a bit, if you think they genuinely wouldn’t be bothered then there’s nothing stopping you, but I just would caution that that might change in future and you might prefer to get ahead of it.

      1. Colette*

        These are good points. I also think it’s likely that over time, you will be less interested in participating as your life moves on.

    4. Cartographical*

      I’d go once for sure and then have the organizers decide with the group/ask management if it’s cool for you to continue attending, given the context and the type of discussions held during the meetings. I’ve worked places where it would be fine and places where it would be a logistical nightmare of best practices.

    5. Emily*

      I can see why’d like to go.

      However:
      Look at the book club as an element of the company’s culture. You left, and you’re still friendly with colleagues — BUT, view this from a perspective of the club being intrinsically linked with that firm.

      I would not attend, in this situation. I understand that the club is self-organized, and I get why that seems like it makes it separate — but in my view, it’s linked.

      That being said, if you made close work friendships with individual colleagues from this firm, and want to stay in touch with them outside of the club — then do that! That’s normal, and a good thing. But I think you need to step aside from the club. Sorry to say it.

      Emily

    6. Patty Mayonnaise*

      I’m kind of surprised so many people are against you staying in the book club – my friend book club originally started as a coworker book club, and our group splintered away, so I think it would be pretty kosher to stay in. EXCEPT. The fact that the book club meets in the office breakroom makes this murky for me, even if it’s after hours. It feels a lot more coworker-y and company sponsored with that location (even though I know it’s not company sponsored). Also, if you have any kind of building security, it’s a hassle to get someone to sign you into the building each time, and has the optics of being a potential security issue. Any chance they would move the club to a nearby bar/coffee shop? I feel like that would make the meetup clearly a “friend” gathering.

  27. Worrying*

    How to deal with a manager that is stressing out because you gave notice? How organized have you left things? My manager has been threatening to complain to new boss if things aren’t perfect before I leave (they will be collaborating a bit on an upcoming project.) I of course will do my best, but worry it won’t enough.

    1. Anony Shark*

      Unless you can clone yourself you can’t organize things perfectly for your departure. My ex assistant left detailed notes and explanations, but even then I had a few minor issues some weeks after she left. Staff turnover is disruptive anywhere no matter how organized you are.

      I don’t think her reaction is fair on you. But also, you can’t manage her emotions. Maybe ask her what she needs specifically so the transition can be smoothed over?

      1. Worrying*

        Part of the issue is that she is worried that she won’t be able to do a project after I am gone, and she actually doesn’t have the right skillset for part of it, so won’t know how to handle any issues. And it bothers me that she keeps bringing up discussing me with the new manager. Do people actually do that?

        1. Fikly*

          The company being unable to cope with the loss of an employee is the company’s problem, not yours.

        2. fposte*

          Even in academia, the kind of person who threatens to bitch about your departure to your new boss is the kind of person others don’t listen to much. So yeah, maybe she’ll say “Oh, that Worrying, she left without completing the building remodel during her notice period!” And odds are that your new boss will say “Mmm, uh-huh, Jane” while thinking Jane is a loon.

    2. Colette*

      Is this an internal move?

      If so, can you remind her that you will be around to answer a few questions?

      Even if she complains to your new manager, I don’t think it’ll have much impact.

      1. Worrying*

        No, not internal, it’s academia, which often has collaborations between organizations on projects.

        Thank you all.

    3. Asenath*

      Let it go. I’m dealing with something similar. I left copious notes on all my processes and the locations of all my files. I gave plenty of notice. I made arrangements with the co-worker whose duties are most like mine to have the phone and email covered and anything urgent taken care of. I spoke two or three times with each manager about what I would have done when I left and what I wouldn’t get to. Since it’s a pretty good workplace, my now-former supervisors aren’t letting me see their stress – if any – aside from, while I was still there, the occasional question/comment about “We do have Major Annual Event after Christmas”, to which I would reply with a bright smile and “I’ll get the initial email send-out done, and I’ve written up my procedure for the rest of it.” It surprised me how often I had to tell myself after I left to let go. It’s not my job any more. I am not responsible for handling all the requests that are surely building up. It’s not my fault that hiring for my replacement was slow, so we – I mean, they – now have one person doing her own job, and covering for both mine and another that’s vacant.

      Do what you should to prepare, and when you start feeling responsible for what won’t be your job any more, tell yourself it’s not your job or your responsibility when you leave.

    4. CuriousCat*

      This is a little off topic but how is the current economy affected your job/career? Have you seen larger raises or opportunity?

      For me I have seen almost no difference but have been at the same company for the last 6 years.

      I have come to realize that my world view is too small so am asking out of curiosity.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Depending on how cornered I felt I might consider one of these two things:

      Telling the old boss that you will let the new boss know that Old may be calling New.
      OR
      Actually tell new boss that old boss is muttering about calling her if there are any issues that come up.

      See, old boss has a hold on you. So all you do is figure out what you are willing to do to break that hold. You may envision several scenarios that end with you triumphantly riding off into the sunset on your beautiful white horse/motorcycle/Beemer and then decide, “Screw it. I am just going to ignore old boss.” (You can laugh, but sometimes this stuff works for me.)

    6. Lilysparrow*

      “If things go smoothly at the new job, I can probably answer some questions from time to time if you need me to. Of course, if I’m *not* able to settle in well due to complaints? Then there’s no way I’ll be able to help you. Because I suppose I’ll be looking for another new job.

      Now, if you’ll let me know specifically what you want done before I go, I’ll try to make sure and get as close to ‘perfect’ as humanly possible.”

  28. Anony Shark*

    I have a question about managing my team. One thing I’ve noticed is that when I address performance issues with staff, the biggest hurdle is to get them to even acknowledge they aren’t performing.

    I try to have a direct but respectful communication style. All I hope for is “yes I can see I’m not achieving X, I will pay attention on X to improve.” But 99% of the time people come up with ridiculous excuses. Today I had someone claim her sales is bad because she works the “bad” hours where it’s difficult to get sales. I pulled up data showing her otherwise. Then she said her sales is good but everyone else is amazing, so hers looks bad in comparison. Again I showed data proving otherwise. She kept giving weird excuses and refused to acknowledge there was a problem.

    I wasn’t introducing any negative “consequences”. I made it clear from the start all I was hoping to do was come up with a reasonable target for the month. Her target is totally achievable. But even that was met with unhappiness because “it wasn’t fair” to have a target.

    I’ve had similar conversations with others in the past where people refuse to admit their performance isn’t meeting expectations and needs to improve. What do you do in these situations?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Their agreement with you is a nice-to-have, but it’s not a must-have. Ultimately, it’s your prerogative as their manager to say, “I need you to do X” whether they agree with your thinking or not. You want to genuinely listen to their input, of course, but if hearing them out doesn’t change your thinking, you don’t need to persuade them into agreeing with you. At the end of the conversation you get to say, “I hear you but my perspective is X because of Y and I do need you to do Z.”

      More here:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2016/04/my-employee-disagrees-with-my-evaluation-of-his-performance.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/11/my-employee-cant-accept-that-his-performance-is-bad.html

      1. Anony Shark*

        Thanks, Alison! You mentioned in the second link you’re never quite sure why some people are shocked when fired even after clear and repeated warnings. I’m glad you mention this because I have experienced the same. Sometimes people can’t seem to accept their failure is due to their own fault. What really sucks is when they misattribute their mistakes as someone else’s fault and blame others for some trivial or imaginary errors that led to their firing or disciplinary action.

        It’s frustrating, but as you say, it’s not my job to obtain their agreement.

    2. CM*

      Can you offer suggestions for improvement? It sounds like you’re saying, “You are not achieving X. You need to achieve X,” but you’re not telling them to to achieve X. Rather than focusing on getting them to acknowledge the problem, you could try engaging with them on solutions. Like when your employee says “It’s not my fault my sales are bad,” rather than proving they’re wrong, you could say, “Let’s talk about how we could get your numbers up,” and start a discussion about whether they need training, support, an accountability plan, or other things that could help them improve. If they keep bringing the discussion back to saying they’re doing fine, you can redirect them to thinking of solutions by saying, “Still, the level I need you to be at is X. Let’s figure out how to get you there.”

  29. Forsyth County*

    Our whole department/facility was closed down today. We all knew it was coming soon and knew to expect layoffs but we thought we’d have a little more notice. Something other than “hey, meeting today: get your stuff and GTFO”. I know it’s for the best in the long run since there was no shortage of dysfunction in the agency but still, some of us have been there for a long time and it’s a wrench to leave. And I have to say I’m quite proud of organizing a networking mailing list. I’ve never done it before and I’m happy to say almost everyone wanted to participate.

    Fingers crossed that I’ll hear something positive soon from a recent job interview! And best wishes to everyone for a better year in 2020!

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Wow, that’s really rough for them to do that right after the holidays – I hope you find something better real soon.

    2. Katniss Evergreen*

      Wow that’s crappy timing, especially considering the lack of notice. Good luck to you, I hope you find something better soon!

    3. Dasein9*

      Oof! I’m sorry.

      Good job on organizing the list. Besides networking, I hope it helps you all provide moral support for each other.

  30. High Risk Maternity Worries*

    I am a little over a month way from my induction date and have a high risk pregnancy. Over the Christmas holiday, I was admitted to the hospital for about 5 days due to baby’s heart rate. I’m in a specialized role in my job with a direct line to two departments that heavily relies on my institutional knowledge. They recently put up an ad for a temp but I’m not sure where they are as far as a replacement. Due to health concerns I have a lot more medical appointments in January than anticipated, each comes with the impending threat that I could be hospitalized again for the sake of the baby or even possibly be required to deliver early. I gave my supervisors a heads up over the holidays (because I wouldn’t be able to work from home on certain days like I planned). I have a call with them at lunch time today to discuss my schedule and projects for the rest of January. Any advice on how to prepare? It seems like right now everything is so unpredictable, and there hasn’t yet been a temp to cross-train, though I do have two part-time student workers who report to me. I wonder if it is possible to just work from home all of January at a reduced hourly week (28-32 hours a week perhaps), because squeezing in 40 hours a week with all of the appointments seems almost impossible (baby has a heart defect, so I’m seeing a obgyn, mfm, pediatric cardiologists, and going in for lots of monitoring). Or perhaps just increase my work from home days at the very least. I’m known as a good employee and so far via email they’ve said not to worry about work and focus on health. But I still need a paycheck. Advice or tips for how to go about this conversation?

    1. Fikly*

      Can you prioritize documenting the institutional knowledge over an ongoing projects? That seems to be the critical issue, that you will (understandably) be unpredictably unable to communicate possibly critical information to people at your company. If the knowledge is documented, then they have a better chance of taking over your work.

      1. High Risk Maternity Worries*

        I’ve been documenting as I’ve gone along, but need to pre-plan for the spring which has been delayed due to other projects coming in and taking a higher priority position. I can emphasize that I really need to focus on documentation and see if my bosses and/or student workers can work on execution and fly in assignments.

      2. Rey*

        At this point, it seems like the basic question is, “If today was my last day in the office for (however long your leave is), do you want me to work on A or B?” When you talk to them about needing to focus on documentation, can you specifically say, “There are so many unknowns about my exact delivery date and I won’t be available for # weeks after that date. We also don’t have an exact timeline for a temp replacement, so the only back-up is the part-time student workers. It seems to me that documentation is the highest priority so that everyone has X information for Y project. If that documentation isn’t completed, critical deadline will be delayed for at least # weeks. With that in mind, does that match up with what you had in mind? Is there something else you would like to prioritize ahead of that?” And maybe send a follow-up email after that conversation to recap whatever was decided.

        Happy thoughts for you and your baby in the coming weeks!

    2. Nothemomma*

      As you mentioned specialized and that they heavily rely on your output, can you float the idea of including your managers or other current employees in your cross training? Not necessarily with the expectation they *will* do your role, but as another layer of backup? That would allow for some redundancy and not leave such a large gap for if you are out earlier than expected.

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      Ask to work from home full time until you deliver. Try to delegate what you can/cross train but don’t worry about it too much, you can only do so much. This is the time to leverage your good will/trust you’ve built. If you’re eligible for FMLA it may be worth exploring if you can start early/go intermittent for now.

      1. Katniss Evergreen*

        I’m seconding this – I’m not a doctor but know that there is so much that stress affects with respect to your health. I would definitely emphasize needing to focus on documentation in your meeting with your supervisors, but your health comes first during what is a super trying time. Regardless of what they’re asking or what the org needs from you, they’re going to have to work without you for a portion of time and their lack of planning for redundancy in this aspect shouldn’t be construed as your emergency to fix before you go on leave.

        Good luck to you, and I hope all things medical go alright for you and your baby (fingers crossed no more hospitalizations pre-delivery).

      2. Dasein9*

        It sounds like your job needs you healthy and well in the long run much more than they need you to overwork yourself for specific projects while you have pressing health concerns. Folks will have to take on some extra work and some less-than-ideal decisions may get made, but it is in your colleagues’ best interest for you to rest and make all your appointments.

    4. AnonyNurse*

      Congrats on your baby, and I hope that your delivery and those first weeks go as smoothly as they can.

      I would encourage you to forgive yourself of all the guilt and stress you are feeling about your job. You didn’t ask for a challenging pregnancy or a baby with special needs. And my guess is that even before your pregnancy, you felt that you could never do enough at work, that there were things undone. That’s just the reality sometimes. Tell your bosses what you can do for now, and be realistic. And once induction day comes, take work email off your phone, mute the contacts, and focus on yourself, your baby, and your family.

    5. High Risk Maternity Worries*

      Thanks everyone! I just wrapped up a conversation with my supervisors and took all of your advice. Rey, your script in particular was very helpful. And AnonyNurse your right. Even before pregnancy there was always a lot of work to be done and you never felt like you accomplished everything you wanted to in a week.

      We have a course of action, which mostly involves me wrapping up one major task today, then focusing on documentation and cross-training. They are fine with me directing my own schedule, and just to give them a heads up if I expect to be in the office, available remotely or totally unavailable.

      I was so worried but that went much better than I expected. Thanks Ask a Manager community.

    6. Hi there*

      I think you may have had this conversation already, and, if so, I hope it went well. My employee was in this situation and ended up going on leave very suddenly. Her doctors did not want her to work any more, not even from home. My advice would be to think about how you and your co-workers could prepare for you stopping work with little advance warning. What is the minimum you could do and pass along so they can stagger through? The big mountain of regular work just won’t get done in the same way as usual, which will turn out fine in the end.

      I wish you and the baby all the best. My staff member was induced just a couple weeks out from her due date, and everybody is doing well. She’ll be back in a couple of weeks, which I am looking froward to.

  31. Shy Boo*

    I’m not sure how to approach this with my lead. I work in a less than ideal job for about a year and a half (not great pay, I help customers practically nonstop on busy days when I’d rather sit by myself working on a computer all day, etc.) but I have just been given a warning for how I was doing a part of the job (nothing egregious but requires a shift in how to do my workflow with customers). It was meant to be a 2nd warning, but I honestly couldn’t recall being told the first incident a few months ago was meant to be a warning. At this my anxiety is ramping up and I feel I’m failing at my job now, especially since I had a more serious issue during the summer (where I was written up but immediately took steps to correct my work behavior going forward and it hasn’t been brought up since).

    The kicker is, with the exception of the summer incident, the lastest ones make me feel blindsided: my monthly reviews go well, my stats are within range, and my leads never mention things I could improve in our individual meetings, but then I get a notice about getting a warning like this week, so obviously the meetings aren’t working as intended here.

    Another supervisor (not my boss but on the same level) gave me a few tips on how to improve my workflow, but honestly I realized 2 things: I really don’t like working with customers (I took the job as it pays most bills and I was unemployed at the time) and while I’m mostly friendly, dealing with an onslaught of customers on busy days like the past couple weeks (think literally not having a moment to yourself except for a couple small breaks and lunch) stresses me out a LOT and there’s no way to alleviate that part of the job so I’m to the point I’m mildly stressing outside of work just thinking how bad it’s going to be when I’m back on shift and what fresh new horrors it’ll bring.

    I know I need to ultimately leave and find a different job but, like most, I need the money and really can’t quit without something lined up. In the meantime, I’m not sure how to approach this with my lead, or if I even should? At the very least I’d like to have a better way to get more constructive critism but at this point my mind immediately wants to ask them “am I doing badly?” but almost afraid to know if the truth is yes.

    1. CM*

      I think, mentally, it’s important to accept that you’re not good at this and that’s okay. It’s not what you want to be doing, you’re going to try to find another job, you hate it and it hates you. That’s fine. The trick right now is just to not get fired before you have something lined up, so focus on that.

      If you don’t already know what the process is to get fired, find out. Like, how many warnings do you get? Is there a PIP where you have to meet specific targets? If you haven’t been given a specific target besides “do better than you’re doing currently” ask what the specific target to do better is. What you want is to have clear enough information to gauge how close you are to getting fired so you can make your plans accordingly.

      If their communication hasn’t been good — like, if it was not clear that the first problem they told you about was serious or was moving you along the path to being fired — then it’s okay to say directly, “I felt blindsided when you told me about X, so I want to make sure that I have a clearer sense of where I stand. How close am I to getting fired? What do I need to do to guarantee that I DON’T get fired?”

      But don’t feel any shame or guilt for being bad at this. Treat it like a purely practical problem where you need to keep your income flowing until you GTFO.

      1. Shy Boo*

        Thanks :) I have a general idea of how many warnings one can get before being fired (though naturally there are exceptions if some are really bad) and will definitely let my lead know how this last warning caught me off guard. I’m thinking I may also mention the stressed out part but only if I see another department opening that might be a better fit (it’s a multinational company and there are a few branches that don’t deal with customers much or nearly as frequently) as I still like the company, just this particular job is not my cup of tea.

  32. Fikly*

    Going to pat myself on the back here.

    I’ve been in my current job for almost a year. I love it, best one of my life.

    End of November, I propsed a major project to my manager that I came up with. Basically, there was a common task that I (and everyone else on my team) was having to do manually, it took a lot of time, and I proposed a project to automatic a huge chunk of it.

    I got approval, spent the rest of the year working my butt off on it, owned the project, did almost all the work myself, got it done by the end of 2019, and it launched Jan 1 as planned.

    For reasons, this task is happening extremely often right now, so it’s a big stress test. Everything is going smoothly. There’s been a few tiny hiccups, nothing hard to fix, and I am getting nothing but thanks and cheers from my team.

    This is the first project I’ve done like this, and I am just so flippin proud of myself. I did a thing!

    7. Tabby Baltimore*

      Really, you *do* have a lot to be proud of, Fikly. This is a great example of that old business mantra “work smarter, not harder.” If you have time later on today, I’d be very interested in learning when/how you realized what aspects of your team’s process(es) you could automate, and the steps you took to accomplish that: did you have to ask your team’s data source to deliver the data in a different way? who in the IT department did you talk to, to re-jigger the transfer or data load processes? did you have to re-work the front-end user interface any? etc.

      Bigger picture here, I think finding ways to automate manual business processes is going to be an increasingly important skill for America’s workers to have. I hope future posters who do this (you don’t have to be in IT, maybe you just created an Excel spreadsheet that could receive “outside the team” data and then boosted it with effective formulas) will consider starting a sub-thread on the Friday free-for-all to talk about how they did that.

      1. Fikly*

        Thanks!

        So essentially, the task was to verify that individuals signing up for a service my company provides (which is paid for by their employer as a benefit) are eligible as defined by their employer. The company sends over lists of who is eligible, and we have an automated process on our website where they put in their information, but if it doesn’t match precisely (for example, if they use the acronym for their company name, not the fully spelled out name, or if their work email has changed and the one on the list is an old one) it’ll come back as an error, and get sent to my team to verify manually, because human brains > computer program.

        This gets tricky, because every company has different criteria by which they define who is eligible. For example, it can be things like, do they also get health insurance through the company, or just, are they benefits-eligible, and then on top of that, some companies are employee-only, while others include dependents, and then you get into the whole separate issue of who counts as a dependent, which is also company specific!

        Then, because we offer 9-10 different services essentially ala carte, each company chooses what services they want to offer, so we also have to check which services that person can sign up for.

        The company I work for is at an interesting stage where we have been small enough that a lot of institutional knowledge is in everyone’s heads, and not documented terribly well, and when it is written down, it’s scattered in a variety of places. We are hitting a point now where this is just not practical anymore because we’ve gotten too big. (Thankfully the company as a whole is recognizing this and actively working to put in structure and documentation that we could get by without before!)

        My team already uses pre-written macros for a lot of typical member communication, that we will lightly edit before sending out, for convenience and standardization. So what I proposed was to make a macro (well, two) for each company that spelled out who was eligible, what the criteria were, what services they could get from us, and also, what information we needed from them to verify them (this also varies by company).

        So part of the project was writing the language, but a big chunk of the project was doing all the research to get all the accurate information for each company. And then there was all the fine editing to make everything shiny, which I really enjoy because I geek out about that stuff.

        I realized this was a problem because every time I was having to do this the old way, I was spending 10-15 minutes looking up what the eligibility criteria were, and a good part of the time, the information just wasn’t there, and it was causing a problem. My first thought was to do some kind of massive spreadsheet that held all this information, but then I thought about the macros, because we were already using them for a few companies, and were already using them for other communications, so then we would have universal standard language plus accurate information.

        This task is actually a minor part of my team’s job, but it was taking up way too much time, plus each time we had to look stuff up, we had a chance of making an error. Having the macros solves a bunch of that!

        I am jokingly telling my team when they thank me for making their lives easier that I did it for me, they are just experiencing a fringe benefit. Because really, it was me getting annoyed every time I did this task and going “there has to be a better way!”

    8. Emily*

      Congratulations, great work!

      (Please picture the following:
      Party popper emoji, massive confetti splash, extra party popper emojis, plus a big bottle of Champagne!)

  33. Maria*

    Just wanted to give an update from last week when my administration asked for the week off. I did as other managers if they would let their team help out and pick up the extra work. They were not happy with that. I then spoke to the grand boss. He agrees her workload is too much but insists that she work for him.

    She actually came in today. She said she felt bad because she was so ‘assertive’ with me last week and was very emotional. I want to help but staff here are set in their ways.

    I do think that she will end up burning out but she is too scared to own it.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Then what are you doing to help mitigate her burnout? It doesn’t sound like you’re trying very hard at all to advocate for your employee with either the other managers or your own boss. It makes no sense for your assistant to be doing two jobs while all the other assistants in your department have time to sit around and talk all day. And she shouldn’t have apologized to you because she was absolutely correct in what she said and how she said it – I hope you didn’t just accept her apology as if it was owed without offering one yourself.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Maria, there are still things you can – and should – do for your employee. If Grandboss insists that she continue supporting him, I strongly urge you to prioritize the tasks that you give her, and reduce those to a critical few.

      I am not sure what you mean by “owning it.” She’s tired and overworked, asked for time off, didn’t get all she needed to rest up, and still came back, even though her workload is still too much. I’d be emotional too, if I was that worn out.

    3. Lehigh*

      Can you own it for her? It sounds like she has been pretty clear about the situation with you. If she is as good as you say, and you want to keep her, wouldn’t it be worth *you* being the one as her manager that takes the proactive steps you need to make her work life livable?

      I’m concerned that you let her come in today and apologize, instead of insisting she take the time off that she clearly needs.

      I’m not a manager, so maybe I am off here, but it seems to me like part of being management and having more pay & responsibility, etc., is so that you are empowered to take over in these kinds of situations.

      1. valentine*

        you let her come in today and apologize, instead of insisting she take the time off that she clearly needs.
        Yes. I wish you had told her to go home, come in late post-vacay to make up for the interruption to her vacation, and assured her she could leave the matter with you and you would reduce her workload and get her a bonus and raise and, if grandboss said no, you’d let her job search on the clock and give her the most fantastic recommendation.

        I did as other managers if they would let their team help out and pick up the extra work. They were not happy with that. I then spoke to the grand boss.
        If grandboss is your manager, maybe the thing to do is to tell him the choices are: (1) say bye-bye to department functionality because there’s no backstop for this great lady and she’s leaving on her own or via doctor’s orders (2) hire support or instruct the other managers to take on some of her work. If grandboss is saying he doesn’t want the other admins working for him, you’re looking at (1) and you have your head in the sand about it. Even if he’s the type who needs the house to burn down before he will move, your role is not to throw your hands up and blame your report for not following through on standing up to you, then wait for the fire and be a one-woman cleanup crew, but to tell him (1) is coming, so you’re going to reduce her work (Is the work she does for him a reasonable amount, so that you can reduce her workload to just that?) and otherwise help her avoid a serious health crisis.

    4. TCO*

      Once you’ve really tried everything to help reduce your admin’s workload (and given that you just started focusing on that this week, you haven’t tried everything yet) or increase her job satisfaction (higher pay than the other admins, etc.), you’ll need to accept that she might choose to leave if the situation doesn’t improve. That’s the cost of your workplace not taking action to retain an essential employee.

      If she leaves, you need to be entirely supportive of her decision. Be a great reference and don’t use the “we can’t survive without you” lines again.

    5. WellRed*

      Well of course she came in. The whole lot of you did nothing to make her feel like she could take the time off. What exactly, did you say to the grand boss and what did you propose to him, with specifics, of how to fix this? What have you offered to take off her plate?

      Sorry to be harsh, but your admin isn’t the only one who needs to “own it.”

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      She DID try to own it. She told you flat out that she needed a week off and she was met with resistance. Regardless of what happened afterwards, that resistance is sticking with her.

      What did you say to her when she came in? Did you strongly suggest that she go home? Did you apologize for not recognizing her impending burnout and for pushing back? The first thing you need to do to help is to make it easier for her to take care of herself. “Please take a week off. I will deal with the fallout,” is a start.

    7. Mike C.*

      Give her the time off and quit mistreating your employees. If you want to talk about “ownership”, why can’t you take ownership for the way you treat her?

    8. Not A Manager*

      It’s interesting that this post is coming after a few posts about employees who are blindsided by getting a bad review, or being fired, when in fact they were given very clear warning.

      You’re going to lose this lady. She told you exactly what’s going on with her and what she needs from you. She also told you what would happen if things don’t get better. When she gives her notice (or rage-quits), don’t be all like “but she never owned it!”

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        Agreed. Maria, I say this with all due respect – you need serious management training. Given the sound of your leadership team, however, I don’t think you’re going to get it on the job. Please consider enrolling in outside management training courses and/or read management books (Alison’s would be a good start) so you can better learn how to manage direct reports and advocate on their behalf.

    9. Dr. Anonymous*

      Let the other managers be not happy and tell them they can’t have more than x hours of her time. Ask grand boss to back you up.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Exactly. I would even go so far as to say the only person she supports is grandboss – they need to make use of the other assistants or fire them and get ones that will actually work. This whole situation is ridiculous.

    10. Zona the Great*

      Well this is not good. She was made to feel so guilty for taking care of herself that she apologized to you and came in anyway. This poor woman.

    11. Middle School Teacher*

      What do you mean, she’s too scared to own it? She straight-up told you she was exhausted and needed a week off and you guilted her into coming. And nobody wants to help redistribute the work??? Your company sounds like a gong show and your management (including you) is ineffective. May as well write the help wanted ad now because she is out the door soon.

    12. AcademiaNut*

      So she came to her boss and told her that she was overworked and exhausted and burning out and making mistakes due to exhaustion and desperately needed a week off. The office was fully staffed otherwise, but her boss pressured her to come in anyways. She pushed hard, but her boss wasn’t sympathetic so she came in and apologized.

      Her boss did a bit of half-hearted poking around and came back with, essentially “Yes, the workload is unreasonable. No, I can’t/won’t do anything about it. Sucks to be you”. Her boss’s boss agrees. So employer knows her workload is unreasonable, won’t give her time off to recuperate, won’t pass any work to other admins whose workload is much lighter, won’t hire anyone else, and is demanding that she do two jobs for the price of one, indefinitely, without relief.

      What more can she do? Her bosses know she’s over worked and burning out and have point blank refused to do anything about it. She can start refusing to do work, but she’s a concientious employee, and quite possibly doesn’t want to risk being fired with a bad reference before she gets a new job.

      And there’s a 95% chance she’s looking for something a job which isn’t going to destroy her health. I’d say there’s about even odds that she quits or goes on medical leave within the next two months.

      What can *you* do as her manager? You can filter her list of tasks, assigning her a reasonable amount of work for one person, and then take the heat from the upper levels when stuff doesn’t get done, re-iterating that you can’t get two people’s work out of one employee. If you don’t do anything, you need to accept that you’re part of her problem, and that her problem is bad management.

    13. Anono-me*

      You have a big problem and you have a second gigantic problem.

      The first one big problem is your admin is overworked and underpaid for the work she does. Without some major changes you are going to lose this person somehow or another.

      The gigantic second problem is that you don’t seem to listen when people give you good advice. Lots of smart people have weighed in on this issue and you still seem to think that your admin being about to implode from burnout is her problem. It’s not, it is your problem. Maybe you truly don’t have the authority to improve your admin’s situation; but you’ve got to stop making it worse by patting her on the head and tell her that she can work herself to death just fine. And whether she strategically quits or flames out; you need to be prepared and have a contingency plan in place.

      My biggest concern for you is that this situation with the admin is not an isolated incident. I think you might benefit from some management classes and re-evaluating your listening skills. Yes at the end of the day you are the one making the decisions and living with the consequences. However, when over 25 smart people are giving you the exact same advice, it is a really good idea to pay attention and at least spend some time considering the advice. Based on your post today, it doesn’t feel like you did that. I think the advice others gave about taking some management classes is excellent, I also think you might want to reevaluate how you communicate with people and make sure that you are actively listening.

      Good luck with everything.

  34. Kicked out*

    Tl Dr. I am kicked from my office into the open floor and want to be able to choose a quiet corner to be able to work
    I work in consulting. we have an open floor design with zones and work stations. It is meant to be flexible but people always sit at the same spot.
    Up to now, I have hoarded a former meeting room which had 4 of these stations. Nothing is different from the open floor except it has a glass door and wall. I am the only one who uses this room because it is a dump (water leak, old files, any discarded stuff from ex-colleagues).
    We will have an influx of new partners in the next week and they decided to convert the room into a partner office.
    When the inevitable happens, I will have to find a spot in the open floor.
    I need a script I can use to try and go to a quiet corner or even work from a non-conventional desk e.g. the meeting pods etc. I have ADD (I take Concerta and Ritalin for it but still need to have minimal distraction) and OCD (some changes to my routine can be upsetting) and am extremely introverted so really badly need to be left on my own to focus and get some work done. I don’t want to come off as whiny. Also, I am in the UK so no ADA

    1. Clodagh*

      There’s no ADA but employers in the UK are required to make reasonable adjustments for employees with disabilities/illnesses (under the Equality Act?). Ask to meet with your manager as soon as possible and be matter of fact about your need for a quiet place to work. It’s not unreasonable, nor is it a ‘whiny’ request.

    2. MsSolo*

      We have hot desking and an open office where I work. It works fairly well in the regional offices, since a lot of the teams are spread over several offices and we do a lot of cross-working, but in the head office, where certain teams tend to be solely based, it very rapidly turned into “luke warm desking” where everyone stakes out a desk in their clique and if you’re visiting you have to guess where you can sit.

      You still have the right to accomodations in the UK, under the Equality Act (especially since you have diagnoses, though I would leave the introversion out of it). This means you can ask your employer for reasonable adjustments. Treat it like you would if you had a back injury and needed a specific desk and chair set up. Identify what precisely on the open floor is going to disadvantage you, what impact it will have on your work, and what adjustments can be made to solve the problem.

      CitA has some example letters which make useful scripts: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/discrimination-at-work/taking-action/asking-your-employer-for-changes-to-help-if-youre-disabled/#h-asking-for-reasonable-adjustments

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Good luck with that.

      I work in an open office with hot-desking, unassigned seating.
      When we moved in, I sat in the quietest, low-foot traffic area I could find in the big open space. However, I was and am still being given a hassle about sitting there, even though I’ve clearly stated it is a “less busy” area and thus a bit quieter and less distracting without people walking into the conference rooms all the time. I get comments to come and sit with the others, and comments that sitting in that area basically means I am “hiding.”

      It’s ridiculous!

      I feel like I’m being punished and ridiculed because I am an introvert who likes a quiet space to work without a lot of people walking/milling around. I come to work to work, not socialize and be distracted all day. It’s really pissing me the F off.

    4. Artemesia*

      Focus on your need to be productive. I have had success with whiney demands in the past because I approached the boss with ‘this is the job I need to do for the department, I need this kind of office to do it and be productive’ i.e. nothing about how a space ‘bothers you’ or you don’t like it or you feel distracted i.e. nothing about your feelings — only about ‘the tools I need to achieve the goals for the department (or team or organization whatever). You sort of get one bite on this — so go in calmly and together with your argument laid out in your head. In your case you need to reference your own particular need for quiet with the ADHD — but the focus still needs to be on and ‘thus I need a quiet spot where I can focus to continue to be productive and get those TPS reports done timely.’

      1. OP*

        Thanks for the steer. I will definitely focus on the productivity angle.
        In the meantime, I snooped around and a colleague told me that they rearranged a big office to have 2 people in it, and the new partner will only come in Q2. So I will practice my script in the meantime and try to scope out free desks (I expect people to quit after we get bonuses in a couple months)

  35. Just a Guy in a Cube*

    Any advice on trying to reset team dynamics that have gotten not-great? My team has grown and had turnover in the past year, and we’ve had various folks out at times. The core team now seems to be formed (though we’ll likely add a few people), and I expect we’ll have this group of leads together for a while. But I’m the interim we have people who were onboarded poorly, some distrust between leads and line people, and some not-great work ethic.
    We clearly need to do some back-to-basics work, which I think needs to include some 1:1 with specific line people, and some group “this is how we paint teapots” exercises, but any suggestions on other ways to help our team reset? I have no reason to think that if the team can jell again we wouldn’t have a group of people who can do the job quite well, but we need to build/rebuild that identity.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Hmm…are there any projects where you could involve everyone in a group brainstorming session? Coming up with ways to improve a process, or even something like changing up the physical space where you work? I feel like that always brings people together in my office and gets them talking.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Review the org chart. Not for so much hierarchy, rather for who does what within the team, who has a split role (*flag; people cannot do two things at once), who do I go to if I have a question, etc., especially for newer people. Who are the decision (peace) makers?

      Show where your team fits in the larger organization. Does their work feed into a greater whole? Is your team’s work dependent on other departments? (That can be a HUGE source of frustration when you’re ready to go and you are waiting…for instance, your line people can’t start production because the purchasing department screwed up the order with the materials supplier. What do they do in the interim?)

      Make sure lines of communication are frequent and clear, but avoid meetings for the sake of meetings.

      Regardless of role, make it clear that everyone is a valued member of the team.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Let your faith in this group show. Let them see you saying, “We will get this.” Don’t skip this step. You have stated here they can do it. Let them know you think this way, and tell them over and over. People jell around leadership that sees where they are going.

      Make sure they have what material items they need to do their jobs. If you think they have what they need, ask them anyway. Go through the formality of asking each person.

      They need to know two types of information:
      1) How to do their jobs correctly- this goes right down to how to do specific tasks correctly.
      2) What the company expects from them as good employees (be on time, be accurate, etc)
      Make sure each person knows this information by heart.

      People who were onboarded poorly, often have distrust. That just makes sense. Don’t bother telling me how to do my job, watch me screw up and the write me or fire me for it. So yeah, I am probably not going to trust that boss/cohort.
      Allow time for training. I had two slower points during each day where I could take people and train them on something. I used those slower times, I went through the entire crew and spent modest amounts of time each day with various people, showing them things and answering questions. Maybe the best I could do was 20 minutes twice a day with two people. I did it. Every. single. day.
      (hint: The same questions often come up over and over. This shows where the weaknesses are in the training.)
      Yes, I lost time from my own work doing this. This is temporary. In the long run, I had a crew that knocked it out of the park, week after week. I did eventually catch up on my own work.

      Tell your leads that they are role modeling what is expected out of the line people. If a line person looks up and sees their lead working along, attentive to problems, answering questions, then it is pretty normal that the line people will do similar they will work along, pay attention to problems and help each other with questions.
      Speak to individuals who work ethic is slacking. I found that most people changed their habits especially as the work really started flowing. The bottle-necked work really contributed to slacking behaviors.

      Last. Gear up, yourself. My folks doubled their productivity. Space for completed units became a problem. Keep looking ahead. It was about 6 months of treading water, around the 9 month mark, I thought, “Oh, wait. Something has changed radically.” At the 12 month mark they almost buried me with their outputs. Start streamlining your own work so when they become more productive you are not buried.

  36. Rebecca*

    Update, I went back to work yesterday after a week and a half off, actually set an alert on my phone to remind me to go to work yesterday! I had a ton of email, still not through it all, and what I’m amazed at is that no one reads out of office messages. I clearly stated when I was returning to work, which days our offices were closed, and when not closed, who to contact. So, sending an email message with a request for info about something on Dec 23 and resending it “need answer” on Dec 27 or 30 and not copying or looping in the people on my OOO message will not get you an answer. And, please do not expect every single issue to be solved an hour after I set foot in the office. I couldn’t even use the find related feature in email until about noon due to indexing. Sighs.

    Someone said this to me recently “nothing changes if nothing changes”. I’m going to expand my job search from the desolate wasteland that is the job market here and if it means moving to another part of this state, or to another state, so be it. I can tell by reading this column there are companies that give merit and cost of living increases, have adequate staffing, solid training programs, etc. Now to find one!

    1. My Brain Is Exploding*

      You can do it!! You have fortitude. Any employer would be lucky to have you. You deserve changes for the better on 2020. I’m rooting for you!

    2. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Yup, no one reads OOO replies. Or listen to OOO voicemail greetings, either. Almost every time I am out for an extended period, I wind up with a series of ever more strident voicemails from someone who absolutely needs assistance. And could get it if they called one of the people mentioned in my voicemail greeting. But, they would rather leave messages about how little old me is ignoring them, blah blah blah. I no longer even feel bad about it. I just have a chuckle over their foolishness and move on.

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Is your OOO set to “only send once per sender” or “send in response to every email.” Because if you have it set to once per sender, if Fergus sends you an email on the 23rd and the 27th, he’ll only get the OOO email once and think you’ve returned.

      I would say that 85% of my coworkers at any given time are a Fergus, so I always set it to send in response to every email. They need reminders ten times a day.

      1. Rebecca*

        That’s a good idea! The other thing I do is add a large red font message at the bottom of each email for about a week or so before I take time off stating “I will be out of the office from X to Y, please note”, to give a head’s up. Sighs.

  37. Minerva*

    As the day is slow (as usual) I wanted to ask your thoughts for my predicament. I have a working experience in my field of about 10 years. I have been working in a company (not US) for the past 4 years. For the 1st 3 I was in a department where I was good at what I did but worked along a very male toxic colleague. Big Boss knew about both my colleague and the fact that I did most of his work. As a thank you and because Bog Boss deep down has a good heart helped me pay my studies. In the end I asked and was transferred to another department, which is a bit more related to my master studies but where I do not have a lot of experience, where I have been for the past year. However, the person I now work with -and who seemingly wanted me to join the new department as it was lengthy discussed prior my joining- does not let me do any work. I now I am in a learning curve, but it has been a year now and still I don’t get to do anything without her approval or orders. When she is away on leave she still works remotely. I am bored out of my mind as I am really not used in such a slow pace environment plus I get irritated as I am not learning anything! She does almost everything by herself and she even sometimes handles things over the phone so I do not even now how to handle something as there is no email track record. When I tried to discuss it with her she said that the manager of our dept does not want me to get involved and that she learned by observing as well. However this does not work for me. I strongly believe that for someone to learn you need to make mistakes, to be actively involved and supervised (obviously) so you can learn from your mistakes. No matter what I politely say, nothing changes. So what do I do? I have resorted into looking for other opportunities and / or discussing with my partner if this perhaps a good time to start a family as I am getting paid, having time off -which in the past was not easy- so why not get advantage of it. But my brain is slowly melting and I feel so inadequate. Please let me know what you think and what you would do in my shoes.
    p.s.: I cannot discuss this openly with bog boss because: a) i was the one who originally exposed the toxic male colleague and b) big boss is very good friends with new colleague and i really don’t think they will hear me out on this one.

    1. Reba*

      Could you meet with the manager of your department (assuming this is a different person than Big Boss)?

      Also remember that you will be talking about *your* work and goals and abilities… It’s not as if you’re just going to complain about your manager on a personal level!

      1. Minerva*

        Thank you for the reply! It is a different person than the Big Boss but she is not very fond of me lets say. Or at least that is how she comes across. Whenever we have spoken (she is in a different building than us) she has repeatedly told me to do whatever my colleague says. So I really don’t know if talking to her will help me in any way. Also something I did not write above, my colleague is being groomed to take over the managers position when she decides to retire. So there is that as well.. Last but not least I should note that strictly on a personal level I like my colleague. She is polite and interesting and fun to be around. Not so fun when it comes to work though.

  38. Anna G.*

    Any advice for cultivating an attitude of gratitude, rather than resentment, at work?

    My boss is the king of springing assignments/tasks on me that are outside my usual workload. Some days I’m able to take it in stride, and some days it irritates me to no end.

    But the irritation isn’t really a helpful response, so any advice on how to avoid that would be appreciated.

    1. Mary Richards*

      Think about the things you like about your job—whether that’s the culture, the pay/benefits, the impact you have—and make a list. Write them down and put the list in your desk drawer. Next time you’re irritated, look at the list and remember that there’s more to your job than this one task!

    2. revueller*

      I’d reflect and see if that resentment comes from something beyond the extra tasks. Is it because it messes with your workflow? Is it because you feel like your boss doesn’t see that you’re already busy and thus doesn’t understand what you do? Is it because you don’t feel like you have the option of saying no? Is there something else going on or happening the days you feel extra irritated?

      Sometimes, it helps to identify if there’s a personal motive underlying the emotional response—that helps you separate that response going forward (“My boss does understand how much work I have to do. I’m getting this extra work because they think I can handle it. That’s a compliment.” OR “I want to the power to say no to these tasks. I should have a talk with my boss to clarify their expectations.”) Sometimes, it simply helps to recognize your irritation and then take the reflective step of thinking, “Where is this coming from?” By identifying the feeling as its own thing, you can work to calm down that feeling right away.

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed, getting to the root of what is annoying you can help to reframe it best. And yes, I try and see whatever good is in any situation so I’d be saying something like “Well, this shows boss trusts me to get my normal work done and this extra project.” or “I’ll write this down with all the other extra projects and bring it up for my review/raise discussion.”

        Something else that helps me is to give myself a moment to feel angry, upset, frustrated, annoyed, etc. and then take a deep breath (or more than one if it is really bad) and move into problem solving mode. So ok, this might suck a bit/a lot, but how can I make it suck less or maybe even turn it into something good? I also look at situation like this as “Ok, what’s one thing I can learn here?” Basically changing from seeing something as a problem to seeing it as an opportunity to learn, grow, etc. I know some of that may sound kind of silly, but being able to change your mindset is so powerful and at the very least you will spend a lot less time annoyed :)

    3. Marthooh*

      I don’t understand the way you’re framing this. Why are irritation and gratitude the only two choices? And why do your feelings need to be positive all the time? It is irritating when when people spring things on you! That doesn’t mean you’re failing at your job.

      You’re a human being who has emotions that are not always in alignment with corporate goals. I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

      1. revueller*

        Agreed, but at least for me, resentment—even if that resentment is warranted—is physically exhausting and mentally draining. I also know that it taints my behavior to others, whether I’m aware of it or not. Trying to figure out ways to reframe the situation can help people like me and OP get through those feelings quickly so that we can move on with our day.

        Tl;dr: feelings are valid, but I personally don’t want to always carry that weight.

      2. Anna G.*

        For me, the irritation may be reasonable but it isn’t /helpful/, and it can actually lead to burnout fairly quickly. It also affects my level of professional respect for others depending on the task (i.e., in the past I’ve felt as though I’ve had tasks pushed onto me by others simply because /they/ didn’t want to do them, which then leads me to judge those people as lazy and damages our working relationship).

        At the end of the day, whether I’m happy about it or not, the task needs to get done – but it goes by a lot smoother if I’m happy about it. I just struggle being happy about it some days.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Agreed with you and revueller. Feeling resentment for people is just not a productive emotion to live in, especially not in the workplace.

    4. Katniss Evergreen*

      Can you think of it as extra experience to put on your resume someday (if any of these tasks qualify)?

    5. Close Bracket*

      Practice gratitude for other things. When it becomes a habit, it becomes easier to practice it in situations that make you unhappy. I am trying to practice gratitude daily. Minimum things that I am grateful for in my life are my nice mattress and my cat. It can really be that simple. Check out the Greater Good Science Center. They have a lot of articles on practicing gratitude.

      1. Emily*

        +1

        A shift in one’s general attitude from negative to positive can have huge effects on our lives.

        Try to always “Look for the good”:

        – Look for the good in people.
        – Look for the good in situations.
        – Look for the positive side.
        – Look for the silver lining, under every cloud.

        (Quick example: I was in a car wreck recently. But I focus on the good: nobody injured, the other car barely damaged, having insurance to cover me, and being in a much better situation than what MIGHT have happened. I am grateful for these things. I truly appreciate them.)

        This could be REALLY hard at first. It’s about shifting your perspective. It takes time — lots of time, and frankly, lots of work. But, please believe me that it’s worth it. Life is hard, so very complex, and the world can be cruel. But the way you look at life, and view the world, will profoundly affect your experiences, every single day of your life.

        (TBH, for me personally, going through lots of therapy has helped me with this, but that may be TMI.)

  39. Well-meaning, unwanted touches*

    I’ve got a boss who keeps on patting my shoulder or rubbing my arm. She does it to a few people – other guys and also women – around the office, as far as I can tell, and it seems to be when she likes someone and wants to be encouraging or supportive. I really don’t think it’s anything beyond that. We’ve got a high-stakes and often emotionally draining job while she’s mainly doing administrative/managerial stuff in the background and not in the trenches with us any longer.

    But I absolute hate it. I don’t like being touched at the best of times, and with her it gets far too close to memories of my ex girlfriend, who started with those kinds of touches and then graduated to assault.

    So what on earth do I do? I’m sure she’d stop, but I really don’t want to talk about why I want her to stop this, and she’s bound to be concerned and ask.

    1. No need to explain*

      Words that I have used.
      Please don’t touch me. And physically pulling away.
      I am not comfortable being touched by anyone in a work situation
      Oh, you startled me. Please don’t touch me. I have a startle reflex that is sensitive.
      I asked you not to touch me.
      Don’t touch me.
      I know you mean well, don’t touch me.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        Of the AAM responses so far, I like this reply the best “I do not want to be touched in a work situation”. Period. No need for any other explanation.

    2. BRR*

      You can just tell her you’re not a touchy person. She likely won’t ask why because a lot of people just aren’t touchy people.

      1. Reba*

        Exactly! Your reason is, “I just don’t like it, thanks for understanding.” You can say it in the Alison style of breezy reasonable not-a-big-deal tone.

        Most likely they will respond appropriately, and if not, it’s their weirdness.

      2. Artemesia*

        I’m not a touchy person is perfect — it is a quirk you have rather than an odious habit she has.

        1. nep*

          But jeeez, I think the boss has an odious habit and OP doesn’t have a quirk.
          I get it, though.

          1. Anono-me*

            I have to strongly agree with Nep here.

            In this you think someone would I think it was funny you could also say “Oh please don’t. I’m very ticklish”

            1. nep*

              I can easily see how there can be disagreement over these points. I don’t understand your second part there, though. Could you clarify? Because I’d like to understand.
              (For me–and of course there is a wide range of views here–touching coworkers is a bad habit. Preferring not to be touched is not a quirk.)

    3. revueller*

      I agree with No need and BRR. You can also say “No touches, thanks!” if that feels more comfortable. It separates the act from the person doing it (undeservedly, because they should take responsibility for their actions, but it may prevent a defensive reflex that makes everyone uncomfortable).

    4. Is it Friday yet?*

      If she asks, just tell her you’re not comfortable discussing further, but you trust that she’ll respect these boundaries in the future.

  40. Mary Richards*

    How do you politely tell someone to get out of your office? I have a colleague I collaborate with sometimes who occasionally overstays her welcome.

      1. Mary Richards*

        I like this, except that she’s the type to say “oh, don’t worry about me! Just keep working.”

        1. Artemesia*

          If she does that, laugh and say ‘no you have to leave — I can’t work with someone right here at my elbow’ or similar.

          1. tangerineRose*

            It is so weird that she thinks it’s OK to just stand there and watch you when she’s probably supposed to be doing work.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t know why Sue Ann is even up in the newsroom so much :-).

      If BRR’s suggestion doesn’t work, move to a direct request. If you have an office with a door, a door is perfect, because after you say “I have to get back to work now” you say, “Can you close the door as you step out, please?” That’s easier for a lot of people to say because it’s not “You leave!” but “Do this thing that means you will have left.”

      Another approach, if you have a reasonably amicable relationship, is to go for friendly brutal brankness. “Dude, you gotta leave and stop talking to me now–I’m buried in reports. I’ll see you at the meeting!”

    3. LibbyG*

      Sometimes I stand up and pick up my water bottle (to refill) while we talk. If they don’t stand up too, I’ll hold up the bottle and say I need a refill before getting back to it. That always does it. We walk out in the hall together, and they’ll peel off at some point.

      1. Mary Richards*

        That sounds like a good way to gently nudge her back to her office (I KNOW she would not stay if I left—I’ve seen that happen), and it gives me a good excuse to pick up some steps and water.

      2. Sequoit*

        The water bottle trick works for me too. Or I’ll just “need to make a trip to the bathroom.”

    4. Quinalla*

      With some folks who can’t get the subtle and not-so-subtle hints, I’ll just say something like “I love talking to you, but I gotta focus now, see you later!” or even blunter “Dude, I gotta get some work done today, go back to your desk!” Depends on your relationship and if the person is a self-aware talker, but

  41. Sally Mack*

    I am in my first job as a manager. I’ve had this position for 2.5 years and am looking to move on to a new company.

    I never had to interview as a manager for this role. I was promoted into it.

    The questions I get as a manager in interviews are much different than questions I got as a non-manager, and I just freak out when I get them.

    Questions like:
    -Tell me about a time you fired someone. What did you say to them? How long did it take from the bad behavior to the firing?
    -What’s an example of atime that you helped an employee who was struggling, and another time when the employee was beyond help?
    -How did you learn operational efficiency?
    -What’s the biggest mistake you made in your last job that impacted the entire team’s productivity?
    -What is the biggest project you worked on and how big was it?

    Honestly, these questions really stress me outr. Compared to non-manager questions I remember getting, which I feel like were more hypothetical like, “How would you solve this problem?” or more open-ended like, “What is your process for xyz?” I feel like I know where they’re coming from AND I can pull from a wider range of examples.

    The manager questions are more specific and difficult to answer, and I don’t always understand why they’re being asked. After I’ve given my answer, I often feel like it wasn’t anywhere near what they were looking for because I get a “Hmmmmmm…. OKkk…..” from the other end of the line or I get a bunch more follow-up questions that seem to have the same underlying tone.

    I don’t have a lot of perspective as a manager because this is my first job as one, so I do feel like part of it is the stress of not knowing if I can make it outside of my current company. Then I feel anxious about being anxious because I feel like a leader shouldn’t feel anxious and it just spirals from there. If I could understand where they’re coming from I think I could go into the interviews with a more level head and not just freak out the whole time.

    Advice?

    1. drop the box*

      Actually, these type of questions probably ARE “how would you solve this problem” and “what is your process for xyz” questions. They want to know how you would handle particular situations. In a front line position, you might solve a problem by using software X; in a management position, you might solve a problem using approach Y.

      Have you had a chance to do much reading on management and leadership? Learning about the theory and thoughts behind this area might give you perspective as to how these questions could be answered and help provide the “why”. Such readings helped me put into words what I was doing intuitively. They can also save you when you don’t have a real-life example and need to use a hypothetical. We don’t all have experience with employees who are beyond help! But we can all say, “Here’s how I *would* handle it and why.”

      I’d suggest carving out some time to reflect on your management style and strengths. Write down or journal your management approach and why you feel it is effective. Bullet point examples of how you’ve put that approach into action. After an interview, write down the questions you were asked, what you remember saying, and what you might say in the future. This can become an interview playbook.

      You’ve got this!

      1. Sally Mack*

        Getting a book is such obviously great advice that didn’t even occur to me. Thank you for your suggestions!

    2. Artemesia*

      You don’t have to tell the truth here i.e. you can base your response on an incident you observed or you wish another manager had done or a hypothetical or embroidery on something you were part of or did. The main thing is a sensible process you can lay out. Go in loaded with a few of these thought through that you can adapt on the spot. Maybe you aren’t ready to advance further in management yet, if you can’t walk the interviewer through a few of these solutions in an interview. It is fine to talk through the process — every incident is a little different, so you could talk about how you need to gather information first before proceeding, and then what your process would be (or was in the case you are discussing) Again you don’t have to actually have done these managerial tasks to be able to discuss how you would handle them.

    3. Is it Friday yet?*

      I’d see if you can attend a training for new managers (whether in-person or online). I think it would help you with your confidence and in practicing your answers for future interviews. Plus, it would give you some additional experience to add to your resume.

  42. Goldfinch*

    What has been your experience searching for a senior-level SME job (not manager track)?

    I’m 15+ years into my career, with a grad tech degree, and I’m finding a total lack of applicable jobs. They just…don’t seem to exist, everything is entry-level or associate. I’ve been opening my willingness to commute to include really large cities (including NYC) but I’m just not seeing anything, and I’ve been casually searching for almost two years.

    1. Aly_b*

      I think a lot of those senior level jobs don’t get posted. I don’t bother because they end up posted for years (very niche field) and it wastes recruiter effort. If someone with that experience were to reach out I would work hard to find a position for them. I’m in consulting so I would expect someone like that to bring in work with them so I could get headcount, so your mileage may vary, but I would try leveraging your network and sending out some non-posting specific resumes. That said bringing a senior person on is a big investment and not everyone will be able to make it all the time, so you’ll certainly have a few people who just don’t have the right position at the time.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It really depends on the industry and the region. In my experience, STEM jobs, particularly engineering, do have a number of higher level (mid and senior level) technical jobs posted pretty often, but they are all over the country and tend to be grouped near tech heavy areas. When I was laid off and looking a few years ago, my inability to relocate was a much bigger obstacle than lack of job postings at my level. I’m not saying they’re a dime a dozen of course, but I was honestly surprised that my niche field had more than a few high level postings over the 18 months I was on the job market.

      Most of the job postings I saw were through LinkedIn and Indeed, but going directly to company websites for places I knew had the right departments (because they are competitors, contracting firms, or I knew colleagues worked there) revealed less well promoted jobs.

  43. Public Facing Librarian*

    On the whole it has been a good year. Successful initiatives happy and engaged reports and volunteers. Positive profession feedback within and outside my institution. Former board members repeated public Christmas still weighs on me. How can I put down this rock?

    2. Pippa*

      Deliberately. Here’s what I mean. When you realize you are carrying it, when the event/past situation and its emotional baggage is getting to you, mentally picture putting it in a box and then putting the box on a shelf. If you want to, make the imagary more elaborate – a specific type of box, lined, a large lock and key. Give yourself a specific time goal for leaving it in the box. If needed, give yourself a time to get the box down, open it and process the contents – on your schedule, in your control 15 minutes or whatever. Then lock it up again. You may also want to check to lock the thing in the box before any interactions with that offending board member so 2020 interactions with them start off as neutral as possible and you are in as strong an emotional footing as posible. What I hear you wanting to do is take back your control. This “box” tool from my therapist helped me take control of a grief thought spiral that was derailing me. Maybe it can help you too.

  44. Finally Friday*

    No question today, just a PSA: PLEASE cross train your team members! I realize it’s sometimes hard to do that when you’re on a small team and there just isn’t enough time or resources, but if you can find a way to do it, it’s so worth it. Not only will it make your team agile and able to handle things when someone leaves, goes on sick leave, etc., but people will greatly expand their knowledge, feel challenged, and know they matter.

    I’ve been at my currently company almost a year and during this year someone quit without notice, which was a fabulous thing, to be honest (she was quite toxic). The previous manager treated this person as their pet and she was basically their right-hand person, even though there was a team leader under the manager who was higher level and should have been doing a lot of these things. Her quitting opened up so much opportunity for other team members, as well as the team leader (since promoted to assistant manager); however, I’ve realized that no one on this team has ever been cross trained on anything, because the manager gave everything to the former employee and that person held everything very close for fear of being pushed out.

    I kind of knew this a few months ago; however, it really hit me yesterday. We’re preparing for an audit and normally what I’ve done in the past is to pull most of the items myself so others can get their work done; audit prep can be quite intense. Plus it made sense in my previous roles. This time I decided every team member will be involved: pulling all these items is a lot of work and it’s too much for one person, especially once the auditors arrive on site; I want them to see what goes into audit prep; I want them to know where to find things; I want them to realize how important their work is and how it ties into the company overall; and I just think it’s a good learning opportunity. (Also, we have a large team and there’s no reason to not utilize multiple people.) I asked someone to pull some reports related to a specific daily task and she couldn’t do it. Even though she’d been doing this task for over a year and the report she needed was within the same set of screens she uses in the application, she had absolutely no idea where to find this report. And it wasn’t anything complicated, just a canned report with less than 20 items. When I helped her find it she said she had no idea that report existed. She was shown how to do only X and Y, but former employee would always pull the Z report for an audit.

    I decided to look at previous audit documentation and noticed that the former employee’s name was on probably 99% of the items, while the manager and team leader had probably no more than 10 items between the two of them. So that explains why this person had a million questions about the three items I asked her to gather. Although she said she’d helped in the past, she didn’t actually understand what she was gathering and why.

    It just really drove home how important cross training and information sharing is, and how much work we all need to do in the coming months.

    1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      I’ve worked every job with the hopes of training others to do it so I keep my files meticulous and easy to access with ‘how to do this’ documents (which is what I left this last job). I guess it’s the military in me but few non-profits do this.

      The Office Manager of 40 years was going to retire but the ED dropped her papers first. So the OM didn’t retire to help the new ED get up and running. This alone should have been a clue that the new ED should make this one priority, of many, coming into the role (new ED has a non-profit marketing/Director level with no ED experience). But alas, it wasn’t done. I think the ED hopes that the OM wouldn’t leave because there was a new ED and things would change – wrong!

      So when the OM retired, with a month’s notice, I was asked by the ED and DD to take on the additional roles so we could evaluate the position and figure out what type of person/role they wanted to hire for. I had TWO DAYS of cross-training with the OM which we knew wasn’t nearly sufficient so we worked on two very important tasks – scholarship renewals and scholarship application process. We knew this should have been done a lot earlier just in case the OM would retire this year (she was playing it close to the vest so that didn’t help either).

      Ultimately it was a disaster! I was in the middle of a major fundraising event for our Events Manager who was on maternity leave so I couldn’t assume most of the additional OM tasks so the ED and DD did the ones they knew how to do which helped them realize how important the OM was to the organization.

      As I was returning to my normal duties and assuming the OM responsibilities, the ED and DD decided (without my input) that because of how things played out they were going to hire a Virtual Assistant to do the work instead. It worsened because they expected me to teach the VA how to do the tasks, ones I hadn’t done myself, and then monitor her work. Because of how this was poorly managed, I quit. It wasn’t going to get better and I wasn’t in the mood for the risk that could come from it.

      They only good thing was that I was still paid at the higher negotiated rate, although I did offer to go back to my hiring rate as I said I couldn’t do the OM work until after the fundraising even which they declined.

      So bottom line: the ED’s lack of planning and preparation caused her to lose me (and subsequently another employee two weeks later).

  45. Black Targaryen*

    Accepting a job offer but need to figure out when to hand in notice. New start date is for first week of Feb, but I want to make sure I give at least 2 full weeks of notice. Problem is I’m waiting to pass a very intensive background check which could take a while. I’m planning to hand notice by the end of next week at the latest, but still concerned about screwing myself over in case I don’t pass.

    1. Cleopatra*

      Well, isn’t it possible to tell your future employer that you can only resign once you have their confirmation on your background tests, and that your resignation will be followed by a two week notice ?

      I doubt that any employer will be reluctant to grant you a two week period of time.

      I myself had to ask my future employer an additional month (I also will be resigning this January), for various reasons, and they were very comprehensive.

      1. Black Targaryen*

        Thanks for this. I think I’ll go back to them with this. The thing is also that I already asked to significantly push the start date because I was waiting for my bonus.

        1. Cleopatra*

          Yes, but it is very reasonable (and recommended!!) for you to wait until they finish up their checks before you resign.

          And also, employers will respect you when you tell them that you will give a two-week notice, as this will someday apply to them when you will be leaving them !

          Good luck !!

          1. Linda*

            I just want to second this. Its absolutely reasonable to not want to give notice until you’re finished with the background check and a good employer would definitely be willing to accommodate that.

        2. annony*

          That means that they have had plenty of time to complete the background check. If they haven’t used that time, it’s on them.

        3. Fikly*

          Was there a reason they waited to start the background checks? Or if they hadn’t, then your start date wasn’t pushed because you asked, but because their background checks just take that long, because presumably they won’t let you start without passing the background check.

        1. Amy Sly*

          I’ve had to pass multiple credit background checks when I had terrible credit (two for bar exams), and my impression is that it really depends on why your credit is bad. In my case, it showed a long string of late payments, a repossession, and a foreclosure, but all ended shortly after I finally transitioned out of retail. Sure, my overall score was terrible and I’m sure they wouldn’t have lent me money, but because it was obvious that I’d turned a corner and wasn’t likely to start robbing clients or customers to pay for my own irresponsibility, it didn’t pose a problem.

        2. 1234*

          Is having a good credit score contingent on employment?

          Any chance they are running your credit only for the purposes of “We need to issue BT a corporate credit card for work expenses?” and if you don’t “pass,” someone else will just need to order widgets/book travel using their corporate credit card?

          1. Amy Sly*

            For any kind of financial or fiduciary work, bad credit is a red flag for fraud risk. I did a doc review case for a financial advisor who found himself using client funds to make up his personal budgeting shortfalls. (Pro-tip: watch your statements very closely if you’re a multi-millionaire and your advisor lives better than you do.) There were red flags all over the place, including the fact that this guy was bouncing checks and paying credit cards late on accounts held by the same bank he worked for.

          2. BT*

            @ 1234, it is contingent upon this. However, I have been actively improving my credit over the past year, so I am hoping that will at least work in my favor.

            1. Amy Sly*

              Yeah, if the story they get between your credit, your resume, and your interview is “this guy was struggling but is doing better” it should be fine. They’re checking whether you’re going to rob them, not whether to give you a loan.

            2. The Other Dawn*

              I’m in the banking industry and I would say this depends on the size of the company and the culture. At a very large bank, they’re much less likely to look further than the credit score. At a small bank, like mine, they’ll dig into why the score is so low. They’ll ask what lead to it being that low and take that into consideration. At a previous bank we had someone who had declared bankruptcy within the last six months due to being unemployed for awhile and not being able to keep up her mortgage payments, bills, etc. She explained it at the end of the interview as “FYI, you’re going to see my awful credit score. This is why it’s so low.” That’s completely different than someone who went completely wild with credit cards and has decided, even though they have the money, they’re not paying them. We hired her and everything was fine. Good luck!

  46. Zinnia*

    Help!
    I got accepted into an intensive, multi day leadership training. I was so excited, then yesterday I learned…my recent boss, who left following an HR investigation, is in my cohort in this training. It’s supposed to be a diverse, fair, equitable training, with focus on building connections, open, honest communication, it is supposed to be an intense, soul searching, intimate experience.

    I don’t like him at all. He has terrible boundaries and I feel like I lost out on five years of professional growth because of him. I feel uncomfortable and on guard around him. What can I say, or ask for, what is reasonable or good wording? I will answer questions.

    1. Cleopatra*

      I suppose that you will be several people in that training. Maybe that you won’t even have to interact with him. Is ignoring him not an option ? Do not forget that he was the one let down, so you have the sort of upper hand in this situation. You can totally ignore him and, if at some point you *have* to interact with him, stay very polite and cordial.

      But, if this training is held several times per year, you can perhaps ask to reschedule it ?

      1. Zinnia*

        I could hope to ignore him but I get the impression it would be preferred for me to be fully involved and open in the training. Also, honestly, I’m not good at it – I survived him but I did not get good at letting him roll off my back, and I feel tense and withdrawn and I just think having him there would hurt my ability to get as much out of this training as possible. Also, I want to say something to the organizer – we are getting put into small groups that we are supposed to work closely with and I definitely want to avoid that. But I’m not sure what to say or how much, how I can be clear and professional.

        The program is offered once a year, with multiple regions. I might be able to defer to next year – resentfully, but I could ask. How should I phrase it if I do ask for that? There is another one close by but this one is free because of a grant, and I can’t afford the not-free version.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          I would contact the organizers and say, I have an employment history with this person, and will need to be placed in a different group than him so that we both get the optimal experience from the program. Is that possible?

    3. RC Rascal*

      I would contact the group running the training and ask to join a different cohort. Frequently part of this kind of training is to present a work challenge and discuss ways to solve as well as communicate with solutions. I got in a similar situation at a corporate training where there was a well regarded junior teammate in the session. Part of the training was to mock up a solution to communicate conflict resolution with someone. I was having major boss issues the junior teammate wasn’t aware of, and would have liked to use the training to work on ways to address boss issues. Instead, I ended up having to make up a fictitious conflict with a distributor partner so I would have something politically correct to discuss in the class.

      1. Zinnia*

        I would like to do that. Does anyone have wording? I think I’m a bit stressed or paranoid about the idea of not being believed/being minimized from previous experiences so I feel compelled to give reasons/explain past what I should (right now I am resisting trying to convince you guys with a list of messed up things he’s done) but how much can I/should I say?

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I like the script suggested by GingerGinger above — “we have an employment history together…”
          But this guy doesn’t work in your company any longer right? And you’d never use him for a reference?
          I’d be tempted to add “Frankly, he was such a difficult person to work for that I need your assurance I will not be one-on-one with him at your event.”
          As far as I’m concerned, that gives the trainer a well-deserved heads-up that there may be a problem walking into their classroom.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Re-reading after a break… get someone else’s take and soften that. What I wrote comes across pretty harsh.

            1. Zinnia*

              I actually really liked it! I was going to soften it anyways, so sometimes it’s nice to have the harsh thing to start with. I was thinking, I could go with, “He was so difficult for me to work with, I would like the facilitator to take that into consideration as much as possible.”

              But this is my conundrum! I want to explain it, so I don’t seem overly harsh, I just seem justifiably leery, but explaining it all makes me seem petty and unprofessional, because we aren’t supposed to badmouth, because I should have moved on or grown past it or whatever, because it’s not one big clearly illegal thing, it’s a bunch of uncomfortable, pushy moments and situations into which as the older, male boss he should NEVER have put me in, and which is the trap that keeps women from speaking out about “small” ways in which men limit our careers and benefit from our silence and don’t feel consequences for it and now I’m mad again!!

              He said in an email about this training that it’s “not usually his cup of tea but the woman from ___ organization (gatekeeper to the $$)” told him he should go – which – ugh – kind of makes it clear to me that he doesn’t want to and isn’t really invested in it. (He thinks he’s still “friends” with another one of his subordinates here, who he sent the email to and who showed it to me, so I saw it with me very own eyes)

              I think it would be helpful for me to have a “safe” or at least predetermined phrase or couple details to say about it that I am okay with sharing, if they ask, because I don’t want to spill out everything I’d been holding in with one poke, or focus on the wrong things, but at least from the materials, it just seems like this is the kind of thing the organization would ostensibly care about, in it’s focus on improving justice, diversity, etc, in our field.

              1. Not A Manager*

                “He was so difficult for me to work with, I would like the facilitator to take that into consideration as much as possible.”

                The problem with this is that it’s not a specific ask. I would try to say what you need. “I need to never be in a small group with him.” “I need you to transfer me to a different location at no charge.” “I will need to reschedule for next year.”

  47. DapperDev*

    Anyone have tips on how to stay focused in meetings? I find my mind wandering after more than 20 minutes. Currently treating depression and have been in my current role for a year. My previous jobs were toxic (work place bullying was rampant in both). So when I started this job I was really struggling with depression and hopelessness. It affected my ability to focus and stay motivated since I just assumed I’d get bullied again. Now I think my colleagues see me as spacey, but at least if I can manage the concentration stuff hopefully that will get better with time, too.

    1. Asenath*

      Take notes. That helps me a lot, even if I’m not going to be the one to write up the minutes. Focus first of all on noting anything directly related to you – things you have been assigned of course, and also things your team might be working or or contributing to. If you still find your mind wandering, make notes on things that are really not necessary, since that will force you to pay attention to the speaker and make you look engaged and focused.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        ^This. I also find that if it’s a meeting I really didn’t need to be in, or it’s a meeting that’s really dragging, taking notes in a different language helps if you happen to know a second language. You could also take very stylized notes in that case too – pretty much anything that takes a bit more focus to do.

        Internet hugs for depression. I’m still working through it as well. You can tell my bad days from how pretty my notes are. Really bad days are pretty *and* partially in German.

        1. Cap. Marvel*

          Second the writing in a different language. Something else I do because I get bored very easily is write out things I notice in the meeting or my thoughts. It really helps me focus and also keeps me entertained.
          Stuff like: “wow Bob really likes using the word ‘tremendous’ today. He’s used it in every other sentence.”
          “Now Ann is using tremendous. Was the conference really tremendous?”
          “I really like Jane’s cadence, she could have been an actress or a singer. Maybe only she should talk from now on.”
          “Did he say burger? Or am I hungry…oh he said BURNING. Burning bridges makes more sense than burger bridges.”
          But I will say this did come back to bite me when my coworker asked for a copy of my minutes. Luckily he didn’t mind waiting for me to type it up so I could remove my train of thought from the actual substance of the meeting. I hope things get better! I’m rooting for you.

          1. Katniss Evergreen*

            I like this so much! I may try this during a 4-hour WebEx I’m supposed to help co-host/moderate later this month. Parts of it are definitely expected to drag.

          2. DapperDev*

            That’s awesome – I might try that myself. I’m not sure if it could work in smaller meetings, but that seems perfect for large meetings where people may not be snooping my screen, haha

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Some years ago I realized that I could focus better if I stood up. If there are long meetings with many people that we get warm, I get there early enough to snag a seat on the side aisle. I’ve been offered a seat many a time, and I just grin and say my back likes it better if I can stand up for a while after 20 minutes.”
      That is 100% true, and I feel no obligation to volunteer that some of these meetings are so tedious I could start nodding off if I don’t stand up after 20 minutes!

      1. DapperDev*

        Thanks! I have a standing desk I use for about 3 hours a day – I just don’t know what to do on days where there are meetings. If I have to sit for more than 30 minutes in a meeting I really disappear, ha

    5. Alianora*

      I often get distracted in meetings by thinking about other tasks and things I have to do. So it’s helpful for me to write the random unrelated thoughts down, so I know I can get back to them later.

  48. Annie Porter*

    So this applies to both work and personal interactions.

    How do you all find a balance between having empathy/sympathy for someone, but also needing to avoid that person because they suck the life out of you? Some people take a mile when I give them an inch – which leads me to avoid that person, and then I feel terrible. But any subsequent reaching out leads to the inevitable “things are awful” monologue, leading to my emotional drain. Think: lonely people with health, relationship, family problems. They’re kind-hearted, though, so writing them off completely feels cruel.

    Anyone found a way to strike a happy medium with these types of folks?

    1. Cleopatra*

      You can hear them out whenever they feel like talking BUT you need to feel absolutely free (and guilt-free) to stop the conversation whenever you feel like it. “Sorry I absolutely need to finish up somehing very urgent, we’ll chat later.”

      I mean, yes, people can be very sad and they might need our help, but this should not provoke a dependence and develop into a toxic relation. Because some people become very needy of reassurance, and they will depend on you to reassure them every single time.

      Resorting to professional help (i.e. shrink) can be really helpful, maybe you can also orientate such person to seek it.

      YES for helping others, but also YES for protecting oneself from toxic relations.

    2. Dual Peppin Whiskey*

      This is something I work on with myself regularly, but forcing myself to emotionally detach–while still being empathetic–and not making their problems my problems is how I handle getting through life as a highly sensitive and empathetic person. It’s really hard! I find myself the most triggered by friends/family talking about their financial problems, as I was raised with/still have a lot of financial insecurity. Ultimately reminding myself that I have absolutely zero control over the situation and outcome really helps my inherent desire to jump in and fix everything.

      If you think the person could handle it, resetting the relationship by pointing out how much they complain and how that has made the relationship one-sided can be really liberating. If they respond poorly to basic boundary setting, frankly I think that allows you to walk away from the relationship guilt free. My boyfriend was raised with a lot of Catholic guilt/emotional manipulative BS which has caused him to put up with a lot of unhealthy behaviors from his family; since we’ve been dating, I’ve pointed out when that’s going on and he’s getting sucked into unhealthy patterns–while still not jumping to fix things myself (SUPER tough!)–and he’s definitely opened his eyes to what’s going on and made a lot of healthy changes. He still regresses regularly, but given that, in my opinion, changing the behavior patterns you were raised with is one of the hardest things you can do, he has made a a ton of progress and is overall s much happier and emotionally healthy person for it. I don’t know if any of this helps, but this is the journey I’m still on, so best of luck to both of us :).

    3. fposte*

      Time and sympathy are not the same thing. Especially if you’re female-socialized, it can feel like you’re breaching your human obligation not to give somebody sad the time they seem to want. But that’s not your obligation, and you almost certainly couldn’t fix their sadness just by spending more time with them. There’s also no “in for a penny, in for a pound” rule–you don’t have to stay in your seat once the monologue starts.

      I think “reaching out” is possibly the root of the problem here, and it might be worth thinking about what your goal is and whether you can refine your communication to come closer to it. If you’re not offering yourself up as a sympathetic ear, avoid questions–rather than “Annie, how are the treatments going?” it can be “Annie, I’ve been thinking of you and I hope the treatments are going well.” If a monologue begins to erupt, you can say “Oh, I’m sorry it’s not better; I hope it will be soon” and move on to the new subject/work or just walk away.

      And watch how other people deal with them–are there people who model a measured approach that you could copy? I think some people have better glom-resistant skills than others. Also accept that they may not like you as much as if you just listened to them all the time–that’s okay, because your life goal isn’t to be their favorite person in the world, and it’s not likely to be helping them that much anyway.

    4. LQ*

      I think about what is my job or role in relation to this person. What is the reasonable thing that I need to do for them. If it is listening then I listen but try to not let it haunt me after. I don’t assign myself homework of fixing their life, not even in my head. I don’t assign myself feeling bad for them. I know when I start to assign myself a bunch of extra stuff on top of the interaction it sucks the life out of me. And sometimes the thing you’re assigning yourself as work is just feeling bad for someone. You can have empathy in the moment and then your task in relation to that person is completed. Limiting the interactions is good, but limiting your own self assigned homework is critical.

  49. Ali G*

    OK I need some LinkedIn help. I think I accidentally linked with a creep who is not the person I thought he was.

    There is a man I’ve run into on and off my entire career. He has a fairly basic Jewish name (I am Jewish and so is he – we’ve chatted about it, etc. so this isn’t an assumption on my part), so we will call him Jason Snyder (not his name). My industry is very small/niche, so when I got a LinkedIn invite to connect from Jason Snyder, I accepted. The picture of this Jason is taken from far away, so I couldn’t immediately recognize him, but the description of his work fits right into our industry.

    Here’s the thing, this guy only comments on posts by young, pretty women. And he must follow them, because when he comments those posts show up on my feed. And he doesn’t offer anything substantive, just a “good job” or “thank you for doing this.” And none of these women are in our industry. One is literally a model, and the others, do all kinds of things. As far as I can tell, none of them engage him. This is gross right?

    Before I do anything, I want to confirm that if I am in private mode I can look at his profile and he won’t know right? I think I need to verify whether or not this is the same Jason and then go from there. Any advice?

    1. Cleopatra*

      Nope if you are in private mode he will not find out.

      If you want to really be assured that this works, you can test it with a friend: check your friend’s linkedin profile in private mode and ask your friend if they can identify you…

      You can also send a message to that Jason referring to a specific previous conversation that you had at some point, to see whether he will recall it OR whether he does not have a clue what you’re talking about !

      1. Ali G*

        OK thanks! I just looked – it’s definitely not the guy I thought he was. And he had a lot of questionable activity so I just removed him. He’s no one that could make waves for me if he figured it out anyway.
        I’m glad I won’t have to see his gross posts anymore.

        1. Flyleaf*

          If you use Google Chrome as your browser, you might want to try out the InCognito browser extension. It provides a simple toggle in the corner of your browser window when you are on the LinkedIn web site that allows you to switch LI private mode on/off with a single click. I use it all the time when I want to leave not tracks.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have to wonder if OriginalJason got hacked or copied. It’s frighteningly common on FB, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see the spoofers spread.

  50. Justin*

    Wish me luck. Have a job interview monday that would be

    1. more money (not a ton, but enough)
    2. the same length commute, so that’s a wash
    3. much more aligned with my goals and ideals
    4. likely full of people I actually might want to spend time with
    5. would help with tuition for my doctoral program
    6. the kicker, in an area where daycare for my (future) infant would be a lot cheaper (and not because the quality is poor, just a less expensive area)

    I mostly want to really get out of this workplace, and also, if I get an offer (probably would take a couple interviews), to try and be somewhat honest that my grandboss pushed me out the door by questioning my commitment (at a time when there’s a lot of turnover), though I won’t be burning the bridge, it’s just a fantasy.

    1. Cleopatra*

      Good luck !!!!!!!!!! I’ve been there !!! And eventually everything turned out fine :)

      You will get out of your current workplace !

      1. Justin*

        I’ve written about this before, but the funny thing is, I was both disappointed in my job and still committed to it because I had brought up a situation with a colleague making ableist and sexist jokes, and they called him out, and I was happy with that, but he only stopped the ableist jokes (and the directors are women), so it seems to be that if the participants in the classes are not openly offended, leave it be. And so, since the work generally isn’t my thing and the people are more like him than me (I think I was living in a fantasy world where the men I knew weren’t this misogynistic), I’ve wanted to leave. With that said, I have never not been committed, just disappointed, so when this new opportunity was sent to me, I jumped at it, and I hope it works out.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I hope it works out for you as well. It’s unfortunate your current company didn’t shut down the sexist language, but you’re right in thinking it’s a cultural issue that isn’t likely to change and your best bet is to get out of dodge if you want no parts of it.

    2. fposte*

      Excellent luck, Justin! It sounds like a great next step for you. Obviously I’m only watching from the outside, but the questioning-your-commitment thing seems weird to me–you’re in a big growing phase of what’s likely to be a pretty significant career and it was obvious to me you’d outgrow any job you had right now. That’s just life, and if grandboss couldn’t see that that was coming, grandboss probably needs a new glasses prescription.

      1. Justin*

        Her explanation was I am sometimes at my desk “looking at my phone,” but considering I almost never leave my desk (and was talking to my wife, who was, as a pregnant person does, at the doctor), it was… not a large sample size to draw from to make that connection.

        So, it’s spiteful but I HOPE the fact that I started seriously looking right after that works out.

  51. Cleopatra*

    Good luck !!!!!!!!!! I’ve been there !!! And eventually everything turned out fine :)

    You will get out of your current workplace !

  52. Allypopx*

    Cross your fingers and toes for me, my new job description and salary are supposed to be approved by the board today.

    I asked for 15-20% more than my predecessor made which is still…not much. But would be a bump from what I’ve made since I left my last grown-up job for grad school. Hopefully, I’m also getting a title/general distribution of responsibilities that’s pretty well curated to my skills and interests, assuming they approve a second position to absorb the other major duties.

    I’m excited and nervous!

  53. Environmental Compliance*

    Recap: I am part of the management team at my facility. My boss is going off the rails.

    Found out that our production manager has rounded up 95% of the management team and went to Corporate to register a complaint against Boss. Complaints are valid IMO – huge lack of ability to make a decision, ping ponging between decisions and projects, several very bad decisions that have nearly taken down the facility (production-wise). There is a clear lack of understanding what the EHS department does as well as obvious sense of being overwhelmed at needing to make high level decisions and stick with them. Boss is in over their head in this role, and it’s hugely affecting production and morale. Nearly the entire management team is actively looking for jobs… the only one that isn’t was just hired a handful of months ago, but if that person was offered a better job, I’m willing to bet they’d take it quickly.

    My contact at Corporate (who is separate from the Corporate handling the complaint) was very surprised/concerned. However, they have suggested that perhaps counseling Boss + team would solve the situation. I’m not convinced, as I’m pretty sure most any trust has been completely eroded away. Plus, Boss would have to come to terms with their *entire team* having complained about their work & management style.

    I don’t dislike Boss as a person, but I don’t think this is the right position for them to be in. Has anyone been involved or witnessed a situation where Upper Management’s team has mutinied as such and had that UM bounce back & stay in the company in that position? Did the team stay as well? My gut is that one of two things will happen: either Boss stays or team stays. If Boss stays, the trust is already gone, and most of us will be out. We all think there is a high likelihood of retaliation in some capacity if Boss stays. Most of us have strong job leads. However, we also all like it here and like the work we do, so there’s also a high likelihood of most of us staying if Boss leaves.

    Personally, it’s about 50/50 if Boss leaves if I stay, as it really really depends on who gets put into that position and also really depends on what the consulting firm that’s very interested in me offers me, as I’d get to get back into a little bit of field research, and I think I’d like the project-based work better.

    Corporate has apparently arranged a visit to the facility on Monday. Boss is back from vacation today (who comes back on a Friday???).

    1. RC Rascal*

      Yes. It was hell. Boss lied to upper management and convinced them the mutineers were out to get him personally instead of it being about legitimate business issues. Then Bossy started an *inappropriate* relationship with the female HR person assigned to handle the conflict. (Read: they were doing it). Boss damaged the business unit so badly company sold it. It went out of business under new ownership in less than a year.

      Run for your lives. This ain’t salvageable. I wish I had a better answer for you, but things only get worse from here. If it helps, I was a Director on the management team and Key Employee of the business unit.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        That’s what I thought, honestly. I cannot think of a situation where Boss stays, we all stay, everyone’s good now. I don’t see it working in any way, shape, or form.

        The facility was also a guinea pig for Corporate – they own a lot of Other Type of Facility, and we’re the only This Type (related but different industries), so I can’t imagine finding out about even more facility issues is going to go well. Feels a little ship-sink-y.

    2. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

      I also had a terrible experience with this, but our boss was not a nice person, and was friends with our office HR representative (which we found out long after the fact). HR person told bad boss specifically who complained about what.

      We were individually confronted by bad boss (usually away from the office in a place with few witnesses , e.g. empty restaurant) with a list of our complaints, asked why each complaint was made, then yelled at, called stupid, etc. Eventually we were all “laid off” or retired.

      It’s been my experience that when HR suggests counseling the team and boss, they are aware of the problem and don’t intend to get rid of boss for any reason.

      I hope this is not what happens to you, but I’m wishing you luck.

      1. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

        Wanted to add that I currently do environmental compliance at a manufacturing facility, and have run into issues like this elsewhere (while working as a consultant in a different city).

        In the above and other instances, it seemed like putting scientists/engineers into a management role (of people especially) was a big component of the problem. (Just my opinion as an engineer that would be legitimately terrible at managing people). Obviously, there are always exceptions…

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Happily (?) HR has not suggested counselling – just my EHS contact, who is totally separate. And from the sounds of it, Boss has been withholding information from UM and it’s recently come to their attention.

          Yeah, I think it might be a case of technical knowledge assumed management skill. Well, I guess a bit debatable, as in a conversation recently a few of us realized that we had all been told different stories of Boss’s background, so that’s….something.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Yeegads what a situation! The one part I can say though it isn’t weird could be coming back on a Friday. I actually like to come back on an unexpected day so I can get caught up on vacation backlog without a lot of interruption. I once typo’d my OOO message and got back the day before they expected, and it was glorious.

  54. Party in shifts*

    Hello Friends- What a week. Apparently my boss was annoyed that I spoke up about the holiday party so I was “fired”. On Friday the 20th my boss made a comment about how he heard that I don’t like what we do for the holidays. I stood up for myself saying no the president of the sister company asked what we did for the holidays and I told him. My boss took the 23rd off and I took the 24th and 27th off so we didn’t see each other until the 30th. He was disappointed that I didn’t handle something a 100% before I left and when I pulled up the email from him saying “don’t handle this I will” he called me lazy and a bullshitter and told me that after I work a full day on Monday to not come in the rest of the week cause I was not needed. I emailed the CEO (I work in a company where this isn’t overstepping) thanking him for the opportunity and saying that I am sorry it didn’t work out. 5 minutes later he calls me to ask what is going on and offered my job back to me. We are restructuring so I am seeing how this shakes out for me but I am seriously job hunting.

    1. Allypopx*

      Yikes! I’m so sorry. How are you even supposed to work for someone who just tried to fire you and was overruled?

      1. Party in shifts*

        So because of the restructure I am technically an employee of sister company and was moved to a totally different department with a new boss and new team. Fire boss was moved to an adjacent department that I will sometimes assist with because of the relationships I have built in my current role. It’s all very confusing.

          1. Party in shifts*

            You have no idea. We had no idea what our vacation package looked like until yesterday. I am moving to the new space next week and I am so jazzed! I will back in the bullpen!

  55. Anon for this one*

    I have a question about an unemployment/severance situation, and due to interpersonal weirdness I can’t ask the person involved, so I thought the commentariat might have some thoughts.

    Last year, a family member’s (let’s call her Alice) employer was bought out by a competitor. The staff who weren’t kept on (which included Alice) were offered a severance package if they stayed during a transition period of several months. Alice accepted, and stayed on the job until the transition ended in April. I was told that her severance package was “six month’s salary” (though she wasn’t salaried) and I was under the impression that she received this money as a lump sum. However, she mentioned in September that she’d recently gone to apply for unemployment, and was told it was too early, she should come back in October. So I’m confused. Does a severance payment preclude you from receiving unemployment? Would it make a difference if it was paid out over six months rather than in a lump sum in April? (This is in the U.S.)

    2. Colette*

      In Canada, you apply for EI (i.e. unemployment) right away, but you won’t receive any money until your severance is exhausted (i.e. if you get 6 months severance, you won’t receive a payment until 6 months + the 2 week waiting period).

    3. Ali G*

      If they are paying her out over 6 months, which is not unusual, she might still technically be on payroll. When I left my last job my severance was paid out over 6 months and I remained on payroll so I could choose to keep my health plan for the duration as well.
      If they are paying a lot of people out, it’s better for their cash flow to do it over the time period than to be giving a bunch of folks large sums of money all at once. If she is still on payroll then yeah, she’s not eligible for UE now, but she should be once her payouts cease.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      I believe this is state-dependent, different states treat severance & unemployment differently.

      1. RC Rascal*

        This is correct; different states have different rules. In mine, the severance payout is irrelevant to your ability to collect unemployment insurance.

    6. Now in the Job*

      In my state, your severance pay has to “run out” before you can get unemployment. So it depends on the state. I had four weeks of severance pay, so my first attempt to apply was denied because I had to wait until “four weeks” had passed.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Agreed. I had to report how much of my accrued PTO was paid out and that had to run out before I got an unemployment check.

        1. Anon for this one*

          That’s interesting! In my state, someone who received several weeks’ worth of PTO in a lump sum was eligible to file for unemployment the next week – all they cared about was whether you received any income that week, even if it was months’ worth of income.

          1. Flyleaf*

            In my state any severance will delay unemployment until the severance runs out, UNLESS you have to sign a release of claims (saying you won’t sue the company) in order to receive the severance. If you have to sign a release, you are immediately eligible for unemployment. I had one former employer that offered severance, but didn’t require a release until I asked them to draw one up, allowing me to claim unemployment immediately.

      2. Natalie*

        Yep, it work the same way in my state, whether the severance is paid in a lump sum or installments. It doesn’t reduce the total UI award you’re eligible for, it just pushes the start date out.

  56. Flaxseed*

    Whenever my boss is out of the office on vacation and comes back in, her assistant has a meeting where he tattles on us. It’s only certain people. This week assistant was angry that “Hermione” left an hour early. Assistant also tattles on me because then boss will zero in on me, even though I don’t know what I did. (Assistant does not like me- my mere presence offends him.) But Assistant never tattles on his friends in the department. (A former coworker in another department confirmed this.)

    I don’t know what exactly is said about me, but do I just keep my head down and work, while looking for other jobs? (I can’t work like this- been there, done that, etc.) Is there anything to discuss with boss? Is there anything to do? (Why are people like this? Why can’t you just go to work and come home?)

    1. WellRed*

      I’d ask the assistant “Are you tracking my hours? Why? Is that something boss asked you to do?” Then wait in silence.

      Also, any chance the employees assistant is tracking are all females?

    2. Approval is optional*

      This is a boss problem – she’s not shutting him down, not noticing (or caring) that his ‘tattling’ only targets some people, and is using the info to zero in on people. Bad management. So I don’t think talking to her would be of any use unfortunately: I vote for the head down, job hunt.
      Is there any way you can take vacation at the same time as the boss next time she’s away, or at least for some of that time? If you can then that will at least stop some of the tattling, and the related stress.

      2. Flaxseed*

        I did that, but he still talks about us. He tattles and then he ignores us for a day or two after. I don’t get it….

  57. I Will Steal Your Pens*

    So its the first Friday at my new job – I was told I could wear jeans but literally nobody is. UGH – I feel so self conscious. I should have work leggings or something until I saw for myself that it was okay. I have just never worked in a place where it wasn’t jeans on Friday. I am not sitting near anyone high up either. This is one of only 3 jobs I have had in my almost 20 year career so I didn’t think when my manager said it was okay to wear jeans on Friday that it would be something nobody would really do.

    Oh well – live and learn.

    sorry – just needed to rant.

    1. Allypopx*

      I bet no one’s giving it a second thought! Feeling self-conscious is the worst but remember it’s likely a much bigger deal to you than anyone else, especially since you were encouraged to wear jeans.

      As an aside your username reminds me to share that I have created a new system I am very proud of where there’s a big fancy tub of pens near the edge of my desk that people can steal but I have also created a smaller pen bucket that’s tucked behind my monitor that has only my good pens. I feel like a dragon guarding my horde.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        You are my comrade in arms. I too have my good pens tucked away and a stack of sacrificial freebies in a visible location. I highly recommend it for those freebies that never quite worked right, anything found on the floor in the hallway, and pens whose ink is starting to give out.

    2. 1234*

      Did you ask the manager if it’s ok to wear jeans on Fridays or did he/she say “BTW on Fridays we can all wear jeans?”

      Also, I promise you, your coworkers don’t remember what you wear. I regularly ask my coworkers if that is a new shirt/shoes and 9 times out of 10, I get a response of “I’ve worn this here before.” Same thing goes when they ask me that question.

      1. I Will Steal Your Pens*

        I asked her what the dress code was, and she mentioned that Fridays you can wear jeans. Since posting that, I have seen one other person on this floor (We have the whole 9 story building) in jeans.

        Thank you all for making me feel better about it. I think being new as it is makes me uneasy, which is why I have stayed in bad jobs way too long. But this old dog is learning some new tricks.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          When I was working in NYC, I often dressed *up* on Friday when friends & I met for dinner.
          And I know people who never dress down so that they will be less visible if they ever have an interview after work.

    3. WellRed*

      I wore jeans on my first or second day at a new job when they only allowed them on Fridays. Whoops.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      My first job out of college, no one had mentioned we could wear jeans on Fridays. So the first Friday, I showed up in my usual business casual dress slacks and blouse. My coworkers gave me a joking hard time since every single one wore jeans – to them it was a huge perk and I wouldn’t have even noticed if someone hadn’t pointed it out. My supervisor actually convinced me to go home during my first break to change so I wouldn’t stick out as the new kid (I lived 5 min away, so I did!). It was a combination of awkward and feeling like they wanted me to fit in, and they did turn out to be great coworkers.

      No other workplace I’ve been at ever had a weird attitude about clothes, you just never know!

  58. Bootstrap Paradox*

    Resume question, inspired by the wide ranging Eagle Scout conversation (great discussion & points from many sides) brought to the fore in the Most Commented On Posts Of 2019 (love the roundups and all the updates!):

    Phi Beta Kappa (PBK) on mid-career professional’s resume – yes or no?

    The PBK listing is a holdover from my initial resumes from long ago and far away. Is this one of the ‘lifetime things’, or should it be trimmed? I know what Dad (also PBK) would have said, but he was…old school. I admit that I LOATH working on my resume, but need to do so for a certification application so I thought I’d go all in and revamp the whole thing since I was already in that place.

    Any fabulous tips, other than wine? ;)

    Thanks, and Happy New Year!

    2. PB*

      Phi Beta Kappa is a well-recognized honor society and some hiring managers would respond positively to it. I would vote to leave it on. It will help you with some people and others won’t care. There isn’t really a downside to leaving it on, especially as it takes up little space.

      1. Antilles*

        Yeah, that’s my take too – I wouldn’t expect much benefit and most people won’t care one bit…but nobody is going to think negatively of you for it, so might as well add those extra 5 words.

          1. Antilles*

            Very doubtful. It might not be super helpful, but it’s not going to hurt you.
            Remembering the Eagle Scout conversation, IIRC, the people who argued against including it were doing so based on the national organization having some controversial history with opposition to marginalized groups so including it risked turning some people off…but I am not aware of any similar concerns with PBK (doesn’t mean there aren’t any, just not aware of them).

          2. Veronica Mars*

            Honestly, not knowing it was an honor society, my first thought was “oof, I’d think less of you.”

            Fraternities really don’t have the best reputation right now. If you do leave it, I’d put in parentheses (honor society).

            2. Environmental Compliance*

              I also had no idea it was an honor society off the top of my head, and while I don’t think I’d be too negative, I’d not really count it as a positive either. If I saw ” honor society”, I’d be very positive about it. I just can’t keep it right in my brain of which frat is which.

              (Potential bias as a previous member of TriBeta. FWIW – not on my resume. The awards are, but no mention of just membership.)

              1. Bootstrap Paradox*

                Good point. I do list it as ‘Phi Beta Kappa Honor Society’, and it is lumped in with things like the National Directors Honor Award and performance awards.

            3. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Add me to the list of people for whom it would read as a fraternity/sorority at first, at least if it’s not segregated in an Awards section.

      2. Bootstrap Paradox*

        Thanks! I do have other, more current items, such as yearly performance awards, to include in that honors/awards section as well, so it’s not just hanging out there by itself.

    3. Anon Lawyer in PA Who Also Used to Live in WA*

      I’d make it a game-time decision for each job you’re applying for. For a certification, though, isn’t that just a matter of assembling documentation that you’ve met a set of prerequisites? I don’t think I understand how including it (or not) would affect whether you get the certification.

      1. Bootstrap Paradox*

        You are right – including PBK or not on my resume doesn’t matter for the certification. But I do have to refocus my resume from it’s current format to one which highlights the area of certification as part of the requirement. As well as a bunch of other forms re: competencies, detailed experience, classes – it’s all a bit more…writing War and Peace than for my other, higher level certifications.

        Buuuutttt, it will get me in the right frame of mind to consider (!) doing the PMP, which I understand has the same kind of fussy approach + test. I’ve waffled over jumping into that process for a few years now – this may be the year.

        Since I was living the pain of working on my resume, I thought I’d go all in & spruce it up for real, not just for the cert.

    4. Goldfinch*

      I’m mid-career and I put PBK on my LinkedIn, but not on my resume. My resume header is phone/e-mail/LI, so the link is quite prominent. Anything that I count as a “nice to have” now goes on LI, while the resume is stripped to bare bones (as is appropriate for my field).

    5. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Admission criteria for Phi Betta Kappa is set by each university. So while it might be recognized, it doesn’t “mean” anything to someone from another school. At my sister’s school they handed it out to a good number of students, at my school I think 1 student per major got it.

  59. Dual Peppin Whiskey*

    Does anyone in this wonderful community have any suggestions/resources for independent contractors in terms of, I suppose, etiquette and procedure?

    After 15 years as an employee, I recently became an independent contractor (bookkeeping), and I’m finding myself with a lot of questions and no resources to turn to besides Google (everyone else I know immediately is an employee). For example, I’d like to raise my rates, but how much is reasonable (a friend suggested 10% every year, but that seems high!), how much notice should I give my clients, how should I handle things if it turns the relationship sour when I inform them of my rate change, etc.

    As much as I absolutely love working for myself, I’m finding I have so many questions about so many things that I’m having a hard time moving forward in a lot of ways, and I very much am not used to feeling stuck!

    1. Veronica Mars*

      My general perception of contractors is that they tend to undervalue themselves. I wouldn’t set a blanket yearly increase, but it would be helpful to sit down once a year and ask “If this were my friend, how much would I advise them to charge?” and make that decision an informed one based on what kind of profit margin / salary is reasonable.

      And its also important to remember that this is business, not personal. So don’t get personally invested in these relationships. I think a month is plenty, with a form letter “this is to advise you that effective ___, rates will increase to ___ to allow us to continue delivering competitive services.” or whatever. No one should be ‘sour’ about that, they should just accept it – or not – and let you know what their decision is. If they get sour, that’s not someone you need as a customer anyway. Of course, there is always room to negotiate if a large number come back stating in a reasonable way that the increase was too much.

    2. Wandering*

      Do you know about the Small Business Administration services? And SCORE (service corps of retired executives)? Both should have free or low cost resources & services, and should know about additional local resources. Congrats & good luck!

  60. Frustrated*

    I took 1 day off during the holidays because it’s our quiet season and when I came back, my coworker was giving me the cold shoulder. He kept talking about how something was finished the day I was gone (It’s his job to do this!) and kept raving about the intern that helped him to the boss in front of me. (To make me feel bad?) Coworker often does this, but I’m not quite used to it. (He likes to pit people against one another.) Any suggestions on dealing with this when you have to work together?

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed, I’d just sort of brush it off with a non-committal phrasing and leave it at that.
        That said, I’d think through the company culture a little bit and how the boss responded to his tactics, because it’s not a great sign that the co-worker feels comfortable to throw shade about you taking one day of vacation. Presuming that you followed all normal PTO Request Procedures and completed your portion of the project (whatever it was), taking a day of vacation during the slow season is perfectly reasonable.

    2. Leopard*

      I haven’t had this happen at work, but in social situations – in my experience – it totally takes the wind out of their sails to just agree with them – either by commiseration or by joining in on the compliments. In this case, I think commiseration might be taken as admitting you should have helped, so I’d go with compliments. Intern helped you? Wow, great job, intern! (Said sincerely but easy-breezy.) People who want to turn everyone against each other, in my experience, get totally defeated by this. (And they often look so visibly disappointed that it actually becomes quite funny!)

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yes, that’s what I was going to suggest – if he’s trying to pit you against the intern, refuse to play. “Wow, that’s great! I knew you guys wouldn’t have a problem with me taking one day off.”

        1. Antilles*

          I like the last phrase a lot – it puts him in a position where continuing to mention that “the day Frustrated was gone” makes him seem weirdly unreasonable.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If it comes up again, take the high ground and join in praise for the intern. It does tend to take the steam out of someone to have you agree with him.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        HA! I just scrolled a little farther and saw Leopard’s post — great minds think alike?

  61. US job and living in another country*

    Has anyone had experience with having a US job but living in another country? This has been a goal of mine for a while. Do you have to pay taxes for both countries or how does that work? Does each country have its own set of laws?

    If anyone with experience in these countries could provide some insight: Portugal, Costa Rica, Argentina

    1. Sharkie*

      My cousin has lived abroad for 7 years and she has had to pay US taxes every year- even after she left the US based company. I am not quite sure about the local taxes.

    3. Anon Lawyer in PA Who Also Used to Live in WA*

      Each country has its own laws. But a lot of countries have tax treaties with the U.S. where you’ll pay your taxes to the country you’re living in, and the amount of income taxed (up to a certain income in the 6 figures) is exempted from what you’re assessed to pay to the IRS.

      If you’re a U.S. citizen you must file your 1040 with the IRS every year. Your first tax year away, you’ll probably have to file state and local returns as well to account for the time you were still in the States.

      If you keep money in a foreign bank, every year you’ll also have to file an IRS Form 8938 and the FBAR. These aren’t tricky so much as they’re an irritating invasion of privacy.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Check out Greenback Expat Tax Services resources pages. They’ve got a whole bunch of guides.

  62. Three owls in a trench coat*

    Hope it’s okay if I ask a more lighthearted question here instead of looking for advice: Has anyone else ever had a humorous misunderstanding with a co-worker or supervisor?

    My example: I was talking to some co-workers about cat videos I had been watching earlier, including one of a sphinx cat. I told them how whenever I see a hairless cat, my brain automatically goes “nakey cat”. Our boss happened to walk by a few seconds later and we had to explain that we were using “naked” to refer to hairless animals. Thankfully, the boss is an animal lover and was happy to hear we were only talking about cat videos.

    1. Now in the Job*

      Told my boss at the holiday party that my husband and I can’t have children. The following week we’re discussing my honeymoon plans and that I plan to get home on Thursday after we dock, do laundry, spend some time with the kids, and come back to work on Friday.

      She was very confused. We call our cat and dog “the kids,” and often refer to our dog as our “son.”

      1. annakarina1*

        One of my best friends and I do not have actual children, but have pets. We jokingly call them “the kids,” or ask about each other’s “niece/nephew.” We obviously know that having pets is not the same as having real kids, but it’s our playful way of talking to each other about our cats and dogs. But anyone overhearing who didn’t know could easily get confused, especially since some of our animals have people names.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        An old girlfriend of my now-husband was building up a goat herd to start a dairy. He bumped into her at a social event and said “Hi so-and-so, how are the kids?” Third friend’s jaw dropped…they took pity on her and explained.

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      I had a kitten named Jayne when I started a new job with a co-worker named Jane. It wasn’t a problem, until Jayne was diagnosed with chlamydia and herpes. (Poor Jayne had them both in her eyes, transmitted from her mother during birth.) One of our co-workers overhead me talking about Jayne’s chlamydia treatment and how she’d also been diagnosed with herpes and assumed I was talking about Jane. Fortunately, Jane was very understanding of the mix-up and I made sure to say Jayne the Cat whenever I talked about her from then on. It was funny afterwards, but mortifying for all of us that morning.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        LOL poor work Jane – I would have felt the need to do a public service announcement for the whole floor that I did not in fact have chlamydia or herpes.

        1. Can't Sit Still*

          She basically did that. I also went around and informed everyone that my cat, Jayne, had feline chlamydia and feline herpes, which is not transmissible to humans in any way. I brought in adorable kitten pictures the following week (digital cameras did not exist yet.)

      2. Three owls in a trench coat*

        Oh nooooo! Poor Jane the co-worker! That had to be an embarrassing misunderstanding.

        Is Jayne the kitten doing better?

    3. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

      We had an unofficial going away party for a beloved team member at a local restaurant. Significant others were invited, and I brought mine. My SO asked me to tell him who everyone was and what their job was as people were arriving. Without thinking about context, I said “Oh, there’s Fergus, with Frank’s wife.” After his confused look I realized that I’d forgotten to mention that Fergus was currently renting an inlaw apartment from Frank, and that Frank’s wife was only carpooling to the event with Fergus as a roommate. Frank walked in about 10 minutes later since he was going to the party straight from work.

  63. Ann Perkins*

    Does anyone have pointers for writing a recommendation letter? My direct report is moving across the country and looking for jobs. He’s done a great job and I’d love to write a recommendation letter he can give to potential employers, but I’ve never used rec letters or written one so am winging it at this point.

    1. Fabulous*

      Based on my understanding, outside of academia, recommendation letters aren’t really something that’s done. Maybe just let him know that you’re happy to provide a glowing reference for him when the time comes?

    2. Lisa B*

      Yes, don’t spend the time on them at all. As a hiring manager I don’t put any stock in them at all, other than to see if they line up with the names that you gave me as your references. It’s the reference calls that you can help the most on, so just make it super super clear with your report that you fully expect to be used as a reference, it’s not at all an imposition, you’re looking forward to singing their praises, etc. Sometimes employees feel like it’s a burden on you so they can use the extra assurance that you’re happy to do it.

    3. Veronica Mars*

      Sorry, unfortunately letters just aren’t valued. Volunteering to be a phone call reference is much better. Here’s an AAM thread on it “stop sending me recommendation letters.”

    4. A Good Jess*

      In my experience, recommendation letters aren’t really a thing, but it would be a good idea now to make notes for yourself on some of this person’s accomplishments and specifics on how they do a great job. That way everything will be fresh when you talk with someone who is calling you for a reference.

      Another thing you can do is work out with this person what kind of communication or heads-up you want/need from them. I have a few people who are my go-to references, and what we’ve worked out is that when I have an interview and think they might get a call, I shoot them an email with the job announcement attached and let them know if there are any particular qualities I think they could speak to that work well for the job.

  64. savemeplz*

    Is there anything worse than working in a open office when you have sudden massive allergies/cedar fever?

    1. Argh!*

      I used to live in Central Texas. January there is the WORST for allergies! I feel your pain, and no, there is no place anywhere that has worse pollen than mountain cedar of Texas!

    2. Veronica Mars*

      Yep. “Not contagious, just allergic to the world” can only be said so many times before no one believes you, lol.

  65. BlueWolf*

    A friend of mine recently started working at a restaurant. He has been scheduled for training on site, for which he clocks in and out. However, the managers have also said they expect the employees to log in to the online system to study the menu and other information about the restaurant group (on their own time, since they do not have access to this while they are at the restaurant on shift). They also told the employees they are expected to read an approximately 300 page book that discusses the philosophy of the restaurant group, which they aren’t being paid for. How would you approach this situation? Would you just go to HR and ask them about tracking those hours as if of course you’re going to be paid for them? As a note, they are paid a regularly hourly wage, not a tipped wage.

    1. WellRed*

      I’d ask the manager how to track the hours because of course. I’d also be way of being asked to read a 300 page book for any job, let alone a restaurant job.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If this is a big corporate restaurant, then he can ask. But if it is a small restaurant with few employees and he asks about getting paid for these hours, then he will prob find that his scheduled hours have been cut back in retaliation for causing a stir.
      Yes, he should be paid for those hours of work. But the reality is that independently owned restaurants are like the wild west. If you ask to many questions, then you won’t have a job.

      1. BlueWolf*

        It’s a pretty big corporate restaurant group. They have formal HR and everything, but most of the managers are young, which makes me think the managers doing the training just say this stuff off-hand not thinking about the fact that these are hourly employees and have to be paid for all this.

    3. Antilles*

      They also told the employees they are expected to read an approximately 300 page book that discusses the philosophy of the restaurant group, which they aren’t being paid for.
      LOL if they actually believe their employees read that book. Best case scenario, people read the first two chapters and then just skimmed the rest; more likely, people glanced at the back cover for some hot buzzwords. My personal trick for these sorts of things is to skim the middle of the book and memorize a couple anecdotes or interesting stories. Then if the topic comes up, you immediately jump in and reference how “you know, this really reminds me of the part”, so it seems like I must have really read the thing.
      That said, I can’t help but laugh at the idea of a ‘philosophy of the restaurant group’ being 300 pages because c’mon, it’s a restaurant, the philosophy should be describeable in a sentence: Satisfy customers by having solid customer service, quality food, and a great dining experience at a reasonable price.
      Maybe you can stretch the philosophy out to a paragraph if you want to go into a bit more detail and add some fluff about your high quality farm to table ingredients or whatever…but that’s about the limit.

      1. BlueWolf*

        I mean, I was trying not to give too many details so as not to reveal the company. The book was written by the founder of the restaurant group. It’s more a memoir and about he founded the business (he’s kind of one of those “celebrity restaurateurs”.) It’s a bit cultish, but they do seem to generally treat their employees well, they provide benefits and such, better than most restaurants.

        1. Antilles*

          Oh, I know, I completely understand not providing details, I just couldn’t help but laugh at the idea of a restaurant thinking that the hourly employees need to read a 300-page book on the founder’s philosophy or his memoir or whatever. It’s nice that you have a long tale of building the business from scratch, but it doesn’t particularly affect the busser’s ability to clean tables or the line cook’s method for grilling a burger.

          1. BlueWolf*

            Oh yeah for sure, I agree it’s ridiculous. I’m sure most people barely skimmed it. They ask questions about the book on the written tests, but I don’t think they count for anything really.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Ah — if it’s an actual published memoir then, I’d suggest your friend look for an audiobook from the library even if she has to put in an interlibrary loan request to get it. Play it during the commute to work, and when assigned to do simple tasks like pantry inventory. Tedious, but time that’s being spent anyway.

  66. Anon in Intl Higher Ed*

    Question for others in higher ed. I currently work in a specific area of higher ed – international education. I moved across the country for this job, which is my first in the field after getting my master’s, though I have over a decade of work experience in other non-related fields. I’ve been here almost 18 months and while I love the work the pay is awful, I work a second job to get by, and I’m pretty much alone and isolated.

    I’m considering going back home and substitute teaching (the district in the area I’m from is in desperate need) and looking for a position closer to friends and family. Large State University is in the area I’m from, and it’s close enough to several others. I’ve gotten interviews at Large State University, but none have worked out so far. I did get to the final round in one so I’m confident I’m at least on the right track with app materials, interviewing, etc. My concern is that this might tank my career. I’ve received conflicting advice but all from people who know me and are invested in the situation.

    Understanding that the job market is always uncertain, if you were on a hiring committee would you have concerns or reservations about someone who left their first professional job in the field to return home and sub while looking for a new position?

    1. PB*

      I am in higher ed and have a decent amount of hiring experience. This is somewhat difficult to answer, since it depends on competition within your field. If I were hiring and saw this on a resume, it wouldn’t necessarily be a deal breaker, it would put you below someone with more experience and currently in the field. Let’s say I’m hiring for a mid-level role. We have 10 finalists with the required degrees and previous work experience and I need to narrow the pool to six people for phone interviews. Would you be more likely to extend a phone interview to a candidate with 3+ years of experience and currently in the field, or a candidate with 18 months of experience not currently working in the field?

      You know better than I do how competitive your specific field is or how many years of experience candidates are likely to have, as these things all vary widely. I have hired for roles where we’ve only had five people meet the basic qualifications, in which case this would be less of a deal breaker. In other roles, we can get 80 applicants and need to be a lot more selective.

      It sucks that you need a second job to get by and I really hope you can move into a higher paying job soon. However, in higher ed, it’s extremely risky to move to an area and hope to get a job at the local university. The odds are greater with Large State Universities than small private institutions, but the reality is that jobs in your field at a particular institution will open up irregularly. Moving without a job lined up would mean that you’re working as a sub indefinitely. It could be two months, but it could be ten years. If you need to move home and sub to make ends meet, then it’s what you need to do, but it may not be the best move if you want to stay in your current field.

    2. Meep meep*

      What level are you at (entry, mid, senior)? I think this affects the answer.

      If you are entry or mid-level would you consider taking a job in another area of the institution for a few years and working your way back into international education (assuming you can’t get directly hired into a role that is directly in international education?) Would you consider doing this rather than getting by on subbing initially?

      At my institution it is pretty easy to move around once your foot is in the door.

  67. Bitter Chocolate Teapots*

    How awful is it for you as a manager who has eliminated a position to face an EEOC investigation? Even if you win?

    In a re-org, my two co-workers and I were moved from Teapot Training into Teapot Publications. They are in their early 40s and have been with the company less than two years. I am in my mid 50s. I have been with the company over five years and helped hire and train them. We are all white women and all had the same job title, but I am pretty sure I was making a good $25K more than they were, both because I negotiated a higher starting salary and because of my raises over the years.

    My position is the one that was eliminated.

    I am rather pissed off.

    I don’t know that I have an EEOC case really, but because of other things going on at the company and because of the way my new VP has handled things, I am not happy at all.

    I am willing to talk away from the (tiny) severance package just to be able to file suit with the EEOC (that is, not sign the legal agreement required to get the severance package), especially if it helps the other people – friends and co-workers who are my age and older – who have been demoted and replaced by people in their 30s and early 40s. Those co-workers are still employed, but only because I think the company is unwilling to pay enough to get rid of them. My company was taken over a couple of years ago and the company that took over is known for trying to humiliate people into quitting rather than just give them a decent package.

    So. Managers who eliminate jobs and HR – how much do you fear an EEOC investigation, even if you turn out to be fine in the end? I don’t care if I win. I am angry about how I have been treated and about how my co-workers – the ones who used to be very well-respected VPs and directors – are being treated.

    1. Allypopx*

      Are you looking to claim age discrimination? If they are hiring people in their early 40s I don’t think that’s going to hold much water, to the point that my fear is it would reflect on you as petty and hurt your reputation. it’s pretty common if positions are being eliminated and there are redundancies to eliminate the position that’s costing you the most.

      It does sound frustrating and I’m sorry you and your coworkers are in a crappy situation but I think this would be a minor annoyance for them, at worst, and not have the outcome you’re looking for.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yeah, unless there were conversations about “getting rid of the old people” or emails about “old farts” or something similar that was documented, then it sounds like the company cut the most expensive employee…which is a legal action. To have a case, you really need to show intent of discrimination.

    2. WellRed*

      You three are all middle age white women. There’s nothing to prove here. Take the severance and negotiate an excellent reference.

    3. LKW*

      You’re trying to argue that laying off someone in their 50’s and reorganizing their tasks to someone in their 40’s is age discrimination. That will go nowhere. Take the package.

    4. BlueWolf*

      Age discrimination applies for employees 40 or older, so the fact that they kept on other employees in their 40s would like negate your claim (if you’re planning to claim age discrimination). As others have said, they cut the more expensive position in order to save money. I’m sorry that happened to you.

    5. Bitter Chocolate Teapots*

      No. I don’t care if I win. I want to know if an EEOC investigation is a hassle. :) I know I probably don’t have a claim.

      1. Allypopx*

        An unfounded EEOC claim isn’t much of a hassle. It’s only really a hassle if they actually have done something wrong and can’t defend their actions. This would be like…20 minutes of an employment lawyer’s time and some cursory documentation.

        I really, really discourage you from abusing the system to give your former employers a headache. Those resources have a purpose and they have real problems to investigate.

        1. valentine*

          I really, really discourage you from abusing the system to give your former employers a headache. Those resources have a purpose and they have real problems to investigate.
          Also, it’s not like this is a class action. The real concern is the effect it will have on the colleagues you’re avenging (illegally? Since you know you have no standing) without their consent. Because won’t TPTB assume you’re in cahoots?

          Why not have a lawyer look over the severance, accept some form of it, and aim for living ever better and caring ever less about your former employer?

      2. meh*

        I’m unclear as to what you think you are going to gain out of doing this. I understand that you are upset about things that happened but it would probably better to focus your energy on better more positive things in the future. Best of luck :)

      3. Ali G*

        No lawyer is going to take your case because you have no basis for a claim. We had one person out of nine people laid off early last year try to make a case. Her lawyer contacted us to get more info on the RIF and we never heard from him again. Once he got the particulars he must have told her to sign her deal and take her money, because that’s what she did.
        Sorry about how this worked out, but this is going to be a dead end for you.

      4. RC Rascal*

        If you think you have a legitimate claim, talk to an attorney. Otherwise, move on with your life.

        My understanding is that while age discrimination legally applies in the US at age 40, there still typically needs to be around a 10 year difference between claimant and the person charged with discrimination.

      5. AvonLady Barksdale*

        You should also think really carefully about your next move or job. If you’re looking for work in your industry and in your city, remember that people talk– and as far as I know, it’s not against the law for someone to say, “Oof, yeah, we laid her off and she tried to file an EEOC claim against us, totally unfounded, bad news.” That’s a reputation hit you may not want right now, especially since you realize you don’t have a claim.

        1. CL Cox*

          It doesn’t even need to be from the designated employer representative. It could be womeone calling a contact they have at the company. Because filing an EEOC (or any type of complaint) will get around the company and the industry faster than the wind. And having it come back as unfounded/dismissed will hurt your professional reputation.

      6. WellRed*

        Don’t do it. File it alongside “don’t send a company wide email detailing how they suck.” You will look bad, not them.

      7. Close Bracket*

        It’s not that big of a hassle, but your employer can probably afford a better lawyer. I brought a suit against a former employer. Even though the head of HR acknowledged to me in front of a witness (before the separation) that I had a point, I still lost the case. If you are flush with cash, bringing a suit might give you personal satisfaction. For me, it was a waste of lawyer’s fees.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      Don’t do this. I get that you’re upset, but there is no case, and making a “nuisance” claim will not look good for you. Depending on the size of the job market in your area, it can also follow you as you try to find new employment. In your specific case, it’s unfortunately not unusual for a company trying to right size their budget to lay off the employee with the biggest salary.

    7. NW Mossy*

      I’ve been part of an EEOC investigation on the manager side, and I can’t say I was ever fearful about it – I felt confident that I’d acted ethically and legally, even if the person who made the complaint felt otherwise. Also, I work for a large corporation, so all the actual legwork of responding to complaints and working with the investigator falls to our legal department rather than the manager personally. To my knowledge, the EEOC didn’t find anything amiss with my conduct or that of the company in their investigation.

      One of the challenges with these types of complaints is that it’s hard to prove discrimination, especially if you don’t have a smoking gun (i.e., emails saying “we need to fire everyone over 50”) or a large enough sample of instances to demonstrate that it’s statistically improbable that age discrimination wasn’t a factor. The EEOC will certainly look for those things, but if you aren’t already aware that they exist, I wouldn’t get my hopes up that they’ll find them.

      Anger at having your position eliminated is normal, and it’s hard to see yourself and others go through organizational changes that impact you negatively. But if the motivation behind pursuing an EEOC compliant is to try to inflict pain on the organization that feels proportional to the pain you feel, it’s likely that you’ll be disappointed. For the company, dealing with these investigations is a fairly routine matter, and if they’re acting ethically, they don’t have a lot to worry about.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Also, I work for a large corporation, so all the actual legwork of responding to complaints and working with the investigator falls to our legal department rather than the manager personally.

        This is how it is at a lot of companies – the legal department handles all claims against the company. So if OP thinks by filing this nuisance claim against the company it’ll negatively impact her boss, well, that’s not going to happen.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Unfortunately, we are all only numbers.

      My company did a reorg last year and eliminated a whole bunch of positions that were mainly filled with long-term employees of 10-20 years or more with the company. This year, they’re filling those positions again, but calling the roles by slightly different names with much lower pay. Worse, the new titles are disassociated with actual industry titles. Example: Product Marketing Manager is now Teapot Program Specialist or something of the like.
      After the reorg, HR actually sent out an email telling people not to rehire any of the people laid off because they wanted “new ideas” for the company.

      It’s pretty disgusting.

  68. WellRed*

    I mentioned on the NY thread that “ask for a raise” was on my to-do list. Yesterday, I got a raise (they are adjusting everyone’s pay–we were acquired in 2019). It’s not very big (3%) and is less than I would have asked for. They were frank about the company’s finances. For my part, I indicated it had been far too long since my last raise and that I’d actually planned to meet with my boss next week to discuss my compensation. I also asked what the timeline looked like for for future raises. So, small win.
    Still polishing up my resume, however.

    1. LKW*

      That doesn’t sound like a raise but a cost of living adjustment and shouldn’t be framed as a raise.
      A raise is that your worth / value to the organization has increased.

        1. Fikly*

          The issue isn’t that you used the wrong term. The issue is that if your employer is telling you this is a raise as a way to prevent you from asking for more money, they are misleading you in an effort to avoid giving you an actual raise.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Yeah, this is a cost of living raise as opposed to a merit-based raised (for when you’ve done a great job/taken on more responsibilities, your role has changed, etc). My employer does this every year (3%) and they don’t even tell us until after the first payroll lands… merit based raises are hard to come by, though– which is why I’m thinking perhaps I should ask for more PTO instead. Good luck!

      1. WellRed*

        Yeah, there’s no merit raises this year, but when this comes around again, I’ll make the case for more. As to PTO, I have so much I never use it all. I have asked for learning opportunities and softer benefits like that. It’s all very new with the new ownership.

    3. Fikly*

      I would not believe them about the finances. We can’t afford to give raises is standard company language that means, we don’t want to, we’d rather give ourselves bonuses.

  69. MissDisplaced*

    Job Search: Should you take less money?

    I’m currently in a job search, where, I think I make more money than most similar jobs will pay.
    For example: Say I make $79k / year with bonuses factored in. But most of the similar jobs I’m seeing seem to only offer something more like $60-$65k/year and no mention of a bonus. That’s a big difference!

    I want to leave my current job for many reasons, but I hate taking that kind of a hit. I’ve worked hard over many years to get where I am in pay, and I’m reluctant to go back to what I was making 10 years ago. It feels like a step back not forward! It really kind of sucks and is depressing to see. I’m really discouraged at how the salaries have stayed frozen or even gone down in my field while the skills demanded (ones you have to pay to learn generally) have increased over the years.

    Is there a rationale to what and how much of a cut you’re willing to take or should take when job searching? Is it ever worthwhile to take that kind of a reduction if you are NOT reducing hours or duties and responsibilities?

    I feel this is especially a bad hit for women who are often penalized by lower salaries in this way if the field is perceived as “feminine,” but honestly, what can you do about it? Stay and pray you don’t get laid off or leave for less pay because that’s what the market is paying? It’s so depressing and demoralizing.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Are they advertising that range? Honestly I would find a couple jobs that you really like, and apply for them and try to negotiate if you’re given an offer. If you have experience and are their top candidate, they might be willing to come up. Also, I would sit down with your budget and see what you could honestly live comfortable with to see how much you would come down in salary and have that be the low part of your range up to what you make now. It might be worth taking a small paycut if you’ll be happier, but not one like you’re talking about unless you are moving to a lower cost of living area.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Not all, but some do advertise that range. Also Indeed filters by salary, so you can sort of get an idea.
        I can be somewhat flexible… but how much is somewhat? +/- $5k maybe is fine and I wouldn’t notice too much, but $10k is too much now that I’ve been used to getting more. Just wondering how others think about this.

        1. A Person*

          One thing to keep in mind is that if only some jobs advertise the range, that could be because they are unusual and want to weed people out who expect more. Do you have friends or former coworkers in the field that could give you a better sense based on experience? I don’t trust job ads much at all.

    2. I am the choir*

      I don’t know what the answer is but I’m in the same boat. I’m very well paid for my field, experience, and location. My job is mind numbing and demoralizing, but I’m actually pretty good at it and I have some rare work perks (a REAL bonus, no dress code, minimal supervision, and the cherry on top– an *office* with a *door*… and I’m an assistant!). Any time I start looking at what’s out there, I’m quickly deflated and scurry back to my unhappy but better-than-most work situation.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        For me, it’s more like I’m happy with my field/line of work, but the company I work for is reorganizing, shifting people around, and not very stable currently. I’ve been moved to another team recently and I don’t like it. The company is also doing other things that seem heavy handed overall (like loss of flexibility and many restrictions). So, it’s time to move on from them.

        But the loss of $10-$15k per year would be huge for me. I mean, it’s not like the cost of living is going down, is it? Why are salaries?

    3. Mockingjay*

      I’d keep looking. I got laid off from a former job, and took a significant cut (>$12K salary, plus benefits loss) for the next one because it was the only offer I got in the middle of the recession. It took years to get back to where I was, and I had to change companies again to do it. Even now, I am still slightly under market, although Current Job provides bonuses and significant annual increases.

      While searching, is there a way to get some skills training or certifications out of your current company to make you more marketable? Is it something you can afford to do on your own, if company has a payback clause?

      1. MissDisplaced*

        That’s also something of a problem with current job. I’ve recently been moved to a function where I just feel stifled and all of my skills are not being utilized. I fear I am falling behind on my technical skills because I am not allowed to use them in my current role.

        This company does not appreciate multi-skilled people and wants people who will ‘stay in their lane’ and do only one thing even if you can do more and do it more quickly. It’s so frustrating.

    4. Anon Today*

      I’m in a very similar boat and am considering taking a 20% cut in base pay to move to a new job (likely even more than that, because new job doesn’t have a bonus structure, while current job does have one). My rationale for considering it is multi-fold:

      1. I know that I’m overpaid for what I do. My current field has a reputation for paying well to entice people to jobs that otherwise might be difficult to recruit for. I’ve known this since starting and have known that moving to a different field would probably require a cut.
      2. I desperately want to move to a new (though very related) field. The work I’m doing now won’t completely directly translate, so it would be difficult to move laterally. I will likely be taking a small step down, but can hopefully move up fairly quickly. More importantly to me is that it’s a field I want to be in and which would open doors to others, giving me more opportunities in the future.
      3. I could maintain my current pay and nice raises every year if I stay at my current company. But I don’t want to stay here. So my option is to switch now and take a 20% cut or switch later and take perhaps an even bigger cut. But no matter what, at some point I’ll probably have to take a cut in at least that range. It would be easier now than when I’ve gotten used to a salary double what I make now.

      It made me feel better about it to sit down and do a full budget on what that would really mean month to month. In the end, my average monthly income won’t change as much as I thought, it’s just going to be bonuses and the “extra” paycheck I normally get twice a year (we get paid biweekly and twice a year have a three payday month).

    5. emmelemm*

      I know people always say “but what about the benefits” – but is there any chance that some of these jobs you’re considering have a really killer super-low-cost share health plan and/or a very large 401K match? That might claw back some of the hit you’re getting.

      Also, you can always ask if you get an interview, “This is a bit of a pay cut. What’s a typical raise schedule at your company?” or something like that.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      It might not be as much of a hit as it seems. You might need more info and to do more math. For example, when I was considering my current role, I knew during the hiring process that NewJob covered 100% of health/dental/vision premiums. I knew NewJob had 401k matching. Basically, several monetary quantifiable differences between it and OldJob that went beyond just salary and bonuses. My case was a little different than yours as the range started a bit lower than what I made and went a bit higher, but I still did the math and determined even if they came in at the bottom of the stated range, the other stuff made up enough difference that I’d break even.
      On top of that, there were enough other appealing factors at NewJob that I would’ve been willing to make the switch to break even moneywise. Depending on the company, it’s also possible they may have better opportunities for increases down the line. So it’s not an easy answer of “how much of a cut is worth it”. A paycut today that might lead to raises every year for the next five years might easily outpace staying put. And that’s before even factoring in other things like work-life balance, etc. Of course none of those things are guarantees, but I think it’s probably true with any new job you won’t know if it were really a good choice until you’ve been there a while anyway. Whether to jump now has a lot to do with your risk tolerance. HTH.

  70. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Cleaning out email : What do you keep? How do you organize what you do keep, what tools & tricks work best for you? I use my email record to find project history when needed — but I’m badly overdue to purge things like corporate benefits announcements from last year’s plans.
    I’ve also got to go through and pull out anything where family&friends fell into the habit of using my work email address instead of my home email address. (There were reasons at one time, but I’m regretting ever letting anyone know it. Apparently it pre-fills ahead of my gmail address.)
    I’m at least enjoying deleting things from CarFax and Sirius Radio and the car dealership that sent my *WORK* email address on to them. (The work email address that I provided only to the salesman only because I was in-between smartphones at the time the old car was totalled and I don’t like to log into gmail on the office PC….grr.)

    1. Allypopx*

      I delete anything that’s spam/redundant/whatever. I have folders for everything else, by broad topic, with subfolders by year. I don’t search the folders much, if I have to search I usually search my whole email, but that way at least I have them. I keep most things ~just in case~ because I’ve been burned too many times.

      I only keep things in my inbox I am actively working on or that are immediately relevant.

      I would suggest unsubscribing from anything that’s sending you a bunch of mail you don’t want but if you’re enjoying deleting them then meh.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        LOL I did unsubscribe, but MY GOD it took a while for Sirius to get that through their system. CarFax is newer, but has had strident complaints about my missing a tire rotation. And no way for me to point out that I dont’ NEED tire rotation when I’ve just replaced all four tires. I forwarded one to the dealership with a nastygram saying they sold my address twice and a third time means I will stop buying from them. I hope they sit up and take notice, because we’ve sure spent enough money there.

    2. cat socks*

      I work in software development (system analyst, not programmer) so I create folders for all my projects. I only keep emails related to discussions about requirements, processes, etc. I also help the support teams work trouble tickets related to issues with our internal software. If I send an email with instructions on how to fix something, I save those in an “FAQ” folder in case the same question comes up again.

      I end up saving a lot of email, but there are times I’ve had to refer to an email from several years ago. I use the Outlook search function quite often.

      I delete most corporate-related email. That information is usually found on the company intranet.

      I am also part of lots of distribution lists and sometimes get system generated emails so those automatically get routed to other folders.

      For emails that require action, I move them out of my inbox into a “Follow Up” folder. For emails I send that need a response they go into a “Waiting for Response” folder so I can easily find them for follow up instead of searching through my Sent Items.

    3. Veronica Mars*

      Honestly, I’m a type-A neat freak, but having email sorted drives me bananas. I’m so much better at searching for The Thing than I am at pre-sorting it into a million folders that I’ve correctly guessed the right future sorting need for. I’ve tried so many times and always give up.
      I do move random junk mail into a random junk mail folder with an automatic rule to delete after 30 days, and I do have archives by year.
      The biggest thing I do for myself (including on my personal email) is go through and unsubscribe from stuff once a month. It takes so much less effort to unsubscribe than it does to constantly ignore junk mail.

    4. SciDiver*

      I keep a couple different folders more or less based on the inbox-zero philosophy: One for announcements and fyis (most emails go here), archive for emails I’m no longer actively using, and three follow-up folders: this month, this week, and today. I still delete stuff and sometimes it makes more sense to create a new folder for a specific project or team, but this system covers most of the bases for me.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        For follow up, I use the flag feature which imo is the best thing going for outlook. I like that it comes up as a calendar reminder and the weird positive feedback jolt from changing the flags to checks.

  71. Existentialista*

    US-based Commentariat, I’d love advice from those of you whose companies give PTO rather than separate vacation vs sick leave. We’re changing to a PTO system in this new year.

    Do you typically save a few “sick” days until the end of the year, just in case? And then do you risk losing them because everyone else also saved them but people can’t all be off at the same time at the end of the year? Or is it more like I just got 6 extra days of vacation?

    Any tips welcome. Thanks!

    1. Okay*

      Our PTO rolls over (up to 5 weeks). We acquire 7 weeks total over the year. I try to keep at least 2 weeks in reserve. I don’t have kids and don’t get sick that often.

    2. WellRed*

      We switched last year from separate buckets to PTO. I’ve found it easy enough to switch my mindset to it’s “a day off,” rather than worrying about sick vs vacation time, but I know some some people are more particular. If I need a day off, I need a day off. One should always be mindful not to use it all up and then not have any when you need it (I realize this can be impossible for many people due to life circumstances/miserly PTO).

    3. Chronic Overthinker*

      I remember at old job where you could save/roll over a certain number of sick days every year, so if you didn’t use them you won’t necessarily lose them. I’m for banking them as you never know when you’ll need them so you don’t want to treat them as vacation days.

    4. Job Searching Cat Mom*

      In my experience, saving days in PTO only happens if I have more then 10 days of PTO total. I’ve never worked somewhere that had enough PTO to cover more than one vacation + days out sick. If you have a use it or lose it policy, only save one or two days, or just save what amount you can roll over.

    5. ThatGirl*

      My current job has separate PTO and sick time, but my last job had all PTO. I did typically save a few till December “just in case” but the rub there was that I needed to use them up or lose them, so I generally scheduled a few random days that I could “take back” if I needed to. We were also allowed to work from home so that was helpful on days when I was not feeling great/coughing and hacking but was well enough to do a little work.

      At my current job I’d actually prefer all PTO; I’ve only used 1 sick day in 2.5 years but if I’d had the PTO that would’ve been an extra week of vacation each year.

    6. BlueWolf*

      It depends on if yours is a use it or lose it type of policy. Ours is all one bucket, but we can keep accruing up to an amount that exceeds our annual allotment before we stop accruing. If it is a use it or lose it, I would plan to keep 1 or 2 days for the end of the year (especially since that’s cold/flu season).

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I treat it all like vacation, but I work 100% from home and have only been sick enough to warrant actually calling in once in five years, and I like going on vacation. But I can accrue up to something like 300 hours (which is more than a full year’s worth, I get 33 days of PTO per year) and roll it over into the next year, and in a pinch I can go up to 40 hours in the red.

      I keep a spreadsheet that tracks my accruals and approved “expenditures” of PTO, so I have a running total through the end of 2021 that I can glance at to see where I will be at any given point. It also changes color when I hit the accrual ceiling (I don’t lose any at that point, but I would stop accruing it until I got back below that line).

    8. Zephy*

      I have use-it-or-lose-it, all-in-one PTO, but it expires/resets on my hire date, rather than 12/31, with no rollover. That avoids the problem of people taking long vacations all at the same time, but it also means that my office has at least one person out for a week or more at a time in any given quarter. It’s not a huge problem for us, though.

    9. Nom de Plume*

      My last company was on the PTO in one bucket system, and I hated it. But maybe that’s because I got a grand total of 10 days off in a given year. I don’t recall if it was use-it-or-lose-it.

    10. Fikly*

      As someone who is chronically ill, when I have it all in the same bucket, I don’t take a single day as vacation, because I know there will inevitably be an emergency and what if I don’t have the PTO?

      And this is why the one bucket system is terrible.

    11. Existentialista*

      Thank you so much, commenters! Ours is a use-it-or-lose-it system, so I will plan to keep a few days in reserve until late in the year.

    12. LGC*

      Jumping in super late but – I treat it as getting x extra days of vacation/time off. (Which is great in my case, since I’m 1) single, 2) childless, and 3) relatively healthy.) Look at your carry-over policy – generally I try to save five days since I can carry over five days (the bad thing is I’m in a state where PTO can just expire). About three months before our PTO expires (in June), my boss emails us telling us we need to take time off, and then I’ll work out something. (Conveniently: I have quite a few reasons to take off in the spring. This year, I’m taking a week off for the Boston Marathon, and I’ve taken days off for other races just so I can go into New York and not worry about things.)

      Alternately, I’ve done a situation where I effectively work part-time in May and June (scheduling every Friday off, for example). It doesn’t work that well for me because I always worry about what’s going on at work when I’m off, and it takes me a couple of days to relax and realize they’re fine without me.

  72. Side Eye*

    Quick question. We just hired a new person – they have to pass the background check before they get an official start date. After HR sent her the official note, she accepted and I sent her an email welcoming her and letting her know we were excited to work with her. It was a very short email. She did not reply.

    Now, I understand that perhaps she didn’t see it or its the holidays and she’s not checking her email frequently because she’s with family or friends or super busy… But how concerned would y’all be with the non-response?

    1. WellRed*

      Ordinarily, I’d be a bit concerned, but I didn’t check any email for seven or eight days last week. I was traveling.

    2. Allypopx*

      Especially given the time of year I wouldn’t give it much thought. File it away in case you see other signs that she might….I dunno, overlook details? Not have a quick response time? But holidays, starting a new job, lots of things this time of year are overwhelming. It could easily be a fluke.

    3. Fabulous*

      Was there anything warranting a response other than “thank you for your email”? If I got an email like that, especially more early on in my career, I probably wouldn’t have thought to respond either. Especially with it being the holidays, I wouldn’t think twice about the non-response.

    4. Anon Lawyer in PA Who Also Used to Live in WA*

      Not too concerned. Sometimes when people are out of the office they are really out of the office — when I’m on the road to trying to take a break, I can go a couple of days without answering anything except the most very, very urgent e-mails.

    5. Goldfinch*

      I would not reply to an e-mail like that. There’s nothing to say other than “thank you”, and she probably just sent your team thank you notes as a part of her hiring process. Responding to you would be a redundant time-waster that would clog up your inbox.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Really? I definitely would have replied to it. I think “thank you” is very appropriate, and it’s completely unrelated to any thank yous that might have been sent earlier. (But I also don’t think it’s weird that you didn’t get a response, given the holidays and other possibilities.)

    6. Blueberry*

      Considering the time of year I’d cut her some slack. Yesterday I did a catch up on my email, which I’d neglected over the holidays, and found a couple from a month ago!

    7. Policy Wonk*

      It’s possible the person never got the message. If you aren’t a familiar sender your message could have gone to the spam folder. And if this person is like me she got so much advertising spam over the holidays that she just dumped the contents of the folder. I wouldn’t be concerned.

    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      Yeah, I guess my question is, what response were you expecting? Did you ask any questions, or give information that was pertinent to her start date or background check that HR hadn’t communicated? If not, it’s not totally weird of her to not respond. If there’s nothing there beyond a “see you when you start, looking forward to it”, there’s not much else to be said. She may have seen it, been happy that people seemed kind at her new potential employer and focused on getting HR what they needed to get her background check done. I wouldn’t be to worried to not receive a “thanks” if that’s all the email warranted.

          1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

            Nah — It just might look weird if I only agreed with one or two people but left out the others.

  73. Peaches*

    I have my evaluation with my manager coming up soon. We fill out a self evaluation, our manager fills out the same one, then we discuss. I guess my question is, does it ever make sense to give yourself a 5/5? I always hear people say “no one can get a 5, a 5 means you’re perfect, and no one is.” I was under a different manager last year, and gave myself almost all 4’s. My manager, however, bumped a few of my scores up to a 5 (no scores were bumped down). I don’t believe my new manager would be as apt to bumping me up to a 5 in anything. She is a more critical person in general, and I don’t think she will give me (or anyone) a 5 in anything, even though I know she thinks I’m an excellent employee. Would it look silly to give myself a 5 in any given category, and see if she bumps me down to a 4? One of the categories my previous manager bumped me up to a 5 in was “detail oriented”. In reflection, I am extremely detail oriented, and would be hard pressed to find anyone in my particular role at any of our 37 branches who is as detail oriented as I am. I don’t want to come across as off base, though. Also, what’s the point of the 5 being there if “no one is a 5”?

    1. MsM*

      I don’t think you should sell yourself short. Like you said, if the top end of the scale wasn’t meant to be used, then it wouldn’t be there. Or at least the criteria would be very clearly laid out for what constitutes close enough to perfection. If you don’t have that kind of guidance, but you genuinely believe you’re one of the organization’s top performers in that area, then give yourself credit.

    2. Allypopx*

      If you think you’re outstanding in a category, give yourself a 5. If your manager disagrees you’ll discuss it.

      5’s down the board might seem a little tone deaf but if you’re being thoughtful and think you deserve it for something, I don’t see a problem. I’d rather see a reflection of how employees really feel so I know if we’re aligned than have someone try to seem humble, personally. I feel like that’s the point of an evaluation.

      Also if you got 5’s on something last year based on a manager bump and you don’t think this manager will do that, it might look like your performance has gone down. I don’t know how seriously your company takes these things but that’s worth considering.

    3. Mill Miker*

      I’ve personally never believed in the “The top score is perfect and therefore unattainable” logic. If it’s “not possible” it shouldn’t be listed as a possibility.

      The way I’ve usually handled this is if someone who’s doing/being less [insert criteria here] than you are is still getting praise, then you’re absolutely a 5/5. (Of course, adjust appropriately for your company’s culture around praise and feedback.) And if they’re not that still doesn’t eliminate the possibility.

    4. Meg*

      absolutely give yourself 5’s where warranted. I’ve had several years of performance reviews with a boss who spent a lot of time on them, and made her evaluation independent of what I wrote. The first year she gently told me I needed to not sell myself short because I rated myself too low. She left this past year, but even before that I realized I needed to do a stronger job of writing my review because I’m not always going to have someone who spends that much time on it. Not in a more critical way, but for example this year the CEO is my interim boss, and he’s not going to have as strong recollections of my previous work unless I include it in my portion. I can’t sit back and hope he remembers what I did.

    5. Goldfinch*

      This “nobody is perfect” crap gets me fired up.

      First, if a metric is impossible to achieve, it should not be a metric. Don’t put a Formula 1 speedometer on a Pinto. Fix your faulty system.

      Second, women systemically undervalue their workplace contributions, while men do the opposite. Don’t hamstring your career trajectory because you’re worried about being “inappropriate” or “full of yourself”. I promise you that plenty of your less-capable peers are busily tooting their own horns.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      Unfortunately, I think this depends on your management. I’ve told this story here before… in my first full-time job, I rated myself 5/5 on attendance because in my first year, I literally didn’t miss a single day of work, and I even switched my schedule around to come in when I wasn’t scheduled in order to make a particular task easier on my supervisor. But my grandboss was one of those “if you give yourself a 5, it means you have no room for improvement” people. And even though I actually DID have no room for improvement (unless I worked 365 days a year), and I think my immediate supervisor agreed that it was ridiculous, I was advised that I should bump that down to a 4. I did get a very good raise based on that evaluation, though.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      This might not be the right approach, but I usually only give myself as high as a 4. Partly because I know all the ways I could still improve lol. I, of course, back up the claim with all my documentation and what not, but I let my manager bump me to 5 based on that if they think it’s warranted. I think I gave myself a 5 one year when I managed a project to significant cost savings over the previous year and created, documented, and implemented an entirely new process the same year. I achieved a lot so I felt like I’d earned it :)

    8. Fikly*

      Argh, I got asked essentially this in a job interview, how would you rate yourself at your current job, 1-10. I said an 8, and they said, why not a 10, and I said I believe there’s always room for improvement.

      I felt like it was such a trap.

  74. Lemon Ginger Tea*

    Has anyone here asked for more vacation/PTO in lieu of a raise? Tell me about it please!

    1. Ali G*

      I did when I accepted an offer and they couldn’t quite meet my preferred salary. This tends to go better if you are bit more senior. I was accepting an executive level position at a non-profit where the salary was set in stone, but they could offer me an additional week of vacation. I took that because they do vacation by seniority and after working professionally for over 15 years I wasn’t down with only 3 weeks to start (sick is separate).

    2. CheeryO*

      My boyfriend did this successfully a couple years ago. He asked for a third week of vacation (big whoop, if you ask me) and was granted it. I don’t recall if he had initially asked for a raise, but the sense was definitely that it wasn’t likely due to the company’s prospects at the time.

      As with anything, YMMV. He’s in a fairly in-demand field and was underpaid at the time, so it wouldn’t make sense for them to turn the request down if they wanted to keep him.

  75. Chronic Overthinker*

    Does anyone else have career-related FOMO? I’ve been in this new job for almost six months and I’ve been craving new challenges. I’m not sure I expected this job to be so… relaxed. I guess all of my previous work experience has been high energy, fast-paced, no time to think/relax that having periods of inactivity makes me feel insecure about my position. So much so that I have been checking out available jobs. Can anyone else relate? Is this normal? Should I talk to my boss about adding responsibilities or should I wait until my annual review?

    1. Cleopatra*

      YES. Talk to him, tell him you can carry on a bigger load of work.

      Having a light load of work is something that unfortunately happens quite a lot… and we need to address it.

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        Here’s the thing. I don’t work directly with my direct report. I actually work more with the other support staff and they have asked that I don’t ask them for extra work. When they have something for me, they’ll give it to me. I also know that currently it’s the holidays and in this business, that’s usually the slow period. So maybe I’m overthinking, hence my nickname. I think I’ll wait until my actual six month date before going to my boss/direct report and see what else I can do to pick up slack. I want to show that I am trying to grow and still can manage my current tasks.

    2. 1234*

      Any chance this job is more “relaxed” because you are still in the learning stage? Are they still getting you up to speed? Are there more opportunities for training that you can take on even if you don’t have a lot of actual projects being given to you?

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Yeah, I was wondering this too. 6 months in, means you had 4 months then 2 months of “holiday mentality”, and if that’s typically the slow period, you may not be experiencing a true reflection of the work yet. If you don’t have access to your boss, can you talk with the other people you work with and ask if this is the typical level of intensity the role usually has?

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      If you’ve been there for almost six months and you are finding that you’re able to accomplish your assigned work with time left over, I think it’s totally reasonable to go to your boss and say, “Right now, my tasks are X, Y, and Z, and I feel like the time I have is more than I need to accomplish those things. I’d love to be able to do more to help out. Are there any additional tasks I should take on, or any training I should look at?” If they say no, it’s fine, I would recommend coming back with “in that case, since my long-term career goals include llama vet tech work as well as llama grooming, would you be OK with me starting some online vet tech training when things are slow?” In other words, have something career-related to suggest that you can spend your time on.

  76. Job Searching Cat Mom*

    How do we feel about Indeed Assessments being autosent before an employer has even looked at your resume? Personally I find it grating, but I just have to put up with it.

  77. I want off the leash!*

    What remote work is out there?

    I’ll be retiring in five years from what will be a 25 year gig at that point (if I could quit today I would, but I’ve been in a very tiny niche industry for my entire career — and don’t want to work for any of our competitors — and am not really qualified to jump to something different without getting a whole new degree). Thinking ahead, I’d like to find part-time (maybe 20-25 hours) work that could be done 100% remotely on a laptop, so I can travel extensively while still maintaining my home in Expensive City and not deplete my savings too much right off the bat. In my ideal fantasy, I’d like work that can be done at any time and is not pinned to business hours in any particular location, so it’s doable from Hong Kong or Buenos Aires or wherever.

    If any of you wise people can suggest types of work/titles/industries/job sites that I should investigate, I’d appreciate the advice. I feel like I don’t even know what search terms to start with! I’m microsoft product-savvy, have a BA in Literature, am a competent editor, have no problem with databases/spreadsheets…but really lack “business” skills outside of my specific field and have no resume line-items to make me an obvious candidate in other industries. I don’t care about high status titles — just need the ability to earn a few hundred dollars a week with laying eyes on an office.

    Thanks for any ideas you might have!

    1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      It’s not thrilling, but transcription (especially legal or medical) is something that can definitely be done remotely. I don’t have firsthand experience but I know there are sites out there where you basically pick up as much work as you want, they give you a deadline of when it needs to be done, and you do it on your own schedule- so you get to decide how much or how little you do. The only special equipment you need is a foot pedal.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I was coming to say transcription, but also a lot of writing/editing based jobs are now fully remote (I’m in one full-time with a software company). I’d focus on the tech and medical industries because a lot of the companies under those umbrellas tend to be more flexible in terms of location and also have freelance/contract work available.

      2. Lilysparrow*

        I’ve done transcription. It may be different if you have a specialty like medical, but ordinary transcription is grueling piecework. You get paid by the audio minute, regardless of accents, audio quality, or how many speakers there are. The deadlines are also very tight.

        If you’re a very fast and accurate typist you might make minimum wage.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      There are definitely editing jobs that can be done remotely, although I think the competition is rather fierce and drives down the price you can ask. There are websites that people use to connect with jobs, but my friends who were able to do it most successfully I believe were contracted directly from textbook publishers or similar. Hopefully others will have more and better suggestions.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I’ve been finding a lot of remote jobs of all types on a site called Flexjobs.
      The entire site is geared towards finding remote work. It is a pay site (nominal charge for 3 months) but you can browse and see what they have first. Indeed is also good, but harder to suss out the actual remote jobs.

      Freelance writing jobs or technical writing jobs might be a good fit for you. Those are 100% remote.
      Maybe market research and reporting? You don’t say what you do currently, but I’d look in my own field first and see what could transition you to remote. It would be easier for you to start writing an occasional piece now, and setting up connections for more regular work later.

      1. I want off the leash!*

        Thanks, all of you! I can’t say what I do now, as the field is so small that I would literally out myself to name our industry — just five small firms in the whole US, and we all know way too much about each others’ business (we deal with a small piece of the enormous puzzle when corporate mergers/acquisitions happen). And honestly, I do want to escape my field: I stopped caring years ago. I’d love to edit, though I can’t point to the sort of experience that would likely lead anyone to pick my resume out of the pile. Transcription sounds workable — not thrilling, but then thrilling is not a requirement!

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      This will go into moderation b/c of the links, but when it emerges you can try the following sites that have been mentioned previously on AAM:

      We Work Remotely (www.weworkremotely.com)
      Working Nomads (www.workingnomads.co)
      Jobspresso (jobspresso.co/remote-work/)(for programming/design/program mgmt/marketing jobs)
      Amylynn/Annika (www.amylynn.org/home/)
      Dream Home Based Work (www.dreamhomebasedwork.com)
      Rev.com
      National Capital Contracting (www.nccsite.com/remote-transcription-opportunities)

    5. Nom de Plume*

      We are offering a remote-only position to someone in a similar boat. This person is retired and we advertised the position as 100% work from home and part-time. The job is a technical editing “fix formatting issues in Word” type of job, and the person we interviewed is a retiree wanting to make some additional income.

  78. TiredEmployee*

    Hi,
    I am facing issues with workculture of my company. The company is not defining proper policies and organization structure.
    There is a people’s manager ‘A’ in the location where I sit. Reporting manager ‘B’ sits in a different country. I also have Application owner ‘C’ planning my project release sitting in another different country.

    I am supposed to give my project updates weekly to all 3 people separately including people’s manager . This is making my worklife difficult . My people’s manager A does a lot of bias towards us developers
    as A is also the manager of testing team .

    Since my reporting manager is in another country , he listens to whatever A says.
    HR has not defined proper policies. I have x sick leaves, y casual leaves which expires at the end of year. I took all my sick leaves and casual leaves as it anyways expires. My HR is complaining why I took so many leaves.
    When I took leaves, my manager had no concerns while approving. Is it wrong to utilise leaves when needed?

    Please advise me how to cope with such company situations where I am helpless.

    1. Nom de Plume*

      The reporting structure does sound confusing. One thing stuck out to me, though. You took all of your remaining sick leave because it was going to expire? Were you actually sick? I understand the rationale that sick leave is a benefit and what’s the use of a benefit one can’t use, but using a bunch of sick days when you aren’t exactly sick would raise a red flag for me, if I were a manager or HR person.

      1. TiredEmployee*

        Nope. I meant casual leaves utilisation.
        As casual leaves were about to expire.
        Sick leaves were taken when i was sick with food poisoning. Also sick leaves were taken when my father was hospitalised and I had to take care of him.

  79. MoneyBeets*

    Are certificates of completion from Lynda.com / LinkedIn Learning worth anything at all on a resume or LinkedIn profile? I am sure they don’t carry much weight, but do they carry any at all, from a hiring perspective?

    1. Allypopx*

      On your LinkedIn profile I think they’re fine but I wouldn’t dedicate resume space to them.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Agreed. On LinkedIn, a recruiter may land on your page because the class matched a keyword.

  80. Spills*

    I have a minor issue but it is driving me CRAZY! I have a coworker who started about a year ago and somehow in her first week here, one of our other colleagues mistakenly told her the wrong title for me and embellished it a bit – essentially “Princess of Engineering” (not the real title but to give you an idea) and she has now been calling me POE for over a year, pronounced “pee” (the name she is calling me does indeed rhyme with pee). I hate it and every time she comes into my office she insists on saying it. I think she thinks it’s a fun joke between us two but it makes me physically cringe every time I hear it and it’s making me not want to speak with her at all.

    How can I fix this? I feel like it’s so far gone now it’s hard to go back!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Oh dear! I think you’re just going to have to bite the bullet on this one. She may be a little upset that she’s been unaware you don’t like her nickname for you but consider it a new year, clean slate. “Can I be honest with you? I really don’t care to be called that, it’s a weird thing that I have. Since we’re starting a new decade can I ask you to call me X or Y instead? It would mean a lot to me!”

    2. Approval is optional*

      A bored, ‘oh dear, that joke is so last decade! Why don’t we let it stay there? So, how was your holiday/did your team win/how are the llamas you adopted working out….’

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      It could be as casual as – “oh I keep meaning to tell you, please just call me Spills”. Then every time she does it after, say “just Spills please” before answering her question or continuing the convo. It alerts her to your preference, sort of references the amount of time that’s passed, but doesn’t make it a huge deal or an argument.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Definitely worth saying something intentionally to avoid snapping if she shows up saying it on an already stressful day.
      Maybe use the prospect of a new hire or visiting customer as a lead-in. “Please stop using your nickname for me. It was amusing at first, but I don’t want to be called that forever. I wanted to give you a heads-up before Jones gets here next week.”
      And if she introduces you to Jones as POE? “My name is Spills. The nickname is just a joke that hasn’t gone away yet.”

  81. Jdc*

    I am about to start job hunting and I want to throw myself on the ground and throw a tantrum. I’ve been a SAHM for a while and love it. We need to save up some money for a move and new house so now I must work. I despise job searching. I’m trying not to go in with that attitude but I do just hate it. I don’t stress or mind interviews but the rest I just hate. All of it

    Hours on resumes, hours planning and getting to an interview that lasts 15 mins, rude interviewers, bad offers, all of it. Add to that the job market here is mainly manual labor jobs I couldn’t do if I wanted so the pickings are slim and the pay here is low.

    I promise I will have a better attitude going in but I am going to sulk for a day or two before I get started on Monday. Plus I have some health issues that basically mean I feel like I’m dying for the first half of the day and now I’ll have to just suffer through that every day so in an office.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Oh no! I so feel you on this one. Plus, I can’t help noticing that the people whose careers are great don’t even look for jobs the way I do – by cold-applying through job sites – because they network their way into jobs or get recruited or whatever. So in addition to my bad attitude I also feel like a sucker whose career is apparently not on fire.

      1. Jdc*

        Ugh same. I don’t have any network here even if i wanted since I’ve never worked here. My husband is an employee of the army after retiring from the Air Force so he’s never even looked for a job so no help there.

        I’ve been browsing all places jobs are listed and there will be maybe one at a time that is even remotely something I’m capable of doing. I’m from so cal and this is a small town. I’m used to pages of listings.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          Try remote jobs! Remote dot co or flexjobs dot com (flex jobs does require you to pay. It’s $15 a month, so not egregious but may be worth it. The jobs are all vetted by the company so they’re legit). I’m casually looking and would love to have a job that’s mostly to fully remote and have had some decent leads through there. Also, try googling “companies with remote workforces” (or distributed workforces) to find them.

          At least you can die in the morning at home instead of in an office if you have a remote job. :)

          1. Jdc*

            Haha. Thanks for those websites. I have been looking for remote work but also haven’t actually started looking yet. Dying from home sounds so much better than having to be perky and smile while I feel like death.

        2. Mockingjay*

          Look at local government websites: state, county, town. Those jobs are not widely advertised. Sign up for alerts.

          Our local tv news stations post articles about job fairs. Follow the channel’s Facebook page. Look at the local newspaper – not the classifieds – for articles on new and expanding businesses. Contact the Chamber of Commerce, and so on.

          As a military retiree, your husband has a huge network that you can tap into. I also was a SAHM with a military/civil service spouse; when I re-entered the workforce after 12 years, my husband’s coworker’s wife gave my resume to the company that she used to work for (defense contractor). I got the job. Contractors are used to spouses with irregular work histories. Follow these companies and their recruiters on LinkedIn. I got my current job through LinkedIn.

          Good luck; I’m sure you’ll find something.

    2. Moose Javian*

      Ugh same. I just moved to a small town in a new state due to my husband’s work and have just started the job hunt. I hate all the work and uncertainty involved! Plus, this is not a strong job market here, despite all I keep hearing about a strong US economy overall. Anyway, this is just to say – solidarity!

    3. Diahann Carroll*

      I had a progressively worsening chronic illness that made it very difficult for me to have a job outside of the home (I lived in the bathroom a lot of the time), so I looked for remote jobs and was able to find one that was almost exactly what I wanted to be doing with my life – the company is headquartered in an entirely state from the one I live in. Maybe you should try expanding your search to include remote opportunities since you said your local market is pretty dead. You may also be able to find something that allows you to stay home and set your own schedule, helping you to work around feeling crappy early in the morning (boy, do I know that feeling).

  82. Leave accruals - no big deal right*

    Our timesheet system deducts any time off that is “approved” – even if it’s in the future – from the leave balance immediately. However, it doesn’t ACCRUE any new time off until the manager and CEO both approve the past time sheets. Our management is often a week or two behind, plus the two-week pay period means that you don’t earn any leave right away. The result of this system is that it always looks like I don’t have any leave left, and am in fact close to the red on vacation leave. Last time I leave the system gave me a warning that I didn’t have enough leave to do this (because I had a planned time off on the books). I figured it didn’t matter, ignored it, and proceeded. It didn’t actually stop me from entering the leave and it didn’t make me take it unpaid. But do you think I need to explain to my manager that this is a quirk of the system and I’m not actually using more leave than I have? I don’t think she understands technology very well and I worry she just looks at my balance and tuts her head.

    1. Leave accruals - no big deal right*

      To clarify, the reason I don’t want to bring it to my manager unnecessarily is that I don’t want to seem obsessed with leave (which I somewhat am) and I might seem bizarrely fixated if I try to explain this somewhat complicated quirk of the timekeeping system. I’m in my first year which is why leave is tight but I don’t want to appear as an employee who is clock-watching to get as much PTO as I can.

    2. WellRed*

      I would assume the manager knows this already. It also sounds, though, like you run pretty close to the edge regarding time off. Is it accruing properly in the system?

      1. Allypopx*

        I wouldn’t assume this, necessarily. If you have approved vacation time in three months and you’ll have accrued plenty by then, the timing quirk can still make it look like your half-day on Friday brings you close to zero because it thinks you just took a week off. Just seems like an annoying system.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      Do you have any reason to believe she thinks you’re taking too much leave? I think if it were showing her a negative balance and she was concerned about it, she wouldn’t be approving your requests without saying something about it to you.

    4. Adric*

      Unless somebody says something, I wouldn’t worry about it. Most time off systems I’ve seen have some quirks like that. If your manager’s been around a while she presumably has experience with it.

    5. Natalie*

      I don’t think you need to worry about it – your manager probably knows, and if they don’t they’ll ask. Our system works the same way and my manager (who has been here for 8 years and should know this already?) asked me about the negative leave balance warning he got for me once.

      1. Leave accruals - no big deal right*

        Yeah I’d love to assume my manager has been around and understands, but knowing her I would not make that assumption.

        1. Natalie*

          Sure, but I think it’s fine to assume that she will ask if she is unaware. Or if she rejects a leave request at some point because of the not-actually-negative balance, you can address it at that point.

    6. Drax*

      I’d probably leave it but if you want to say something I’d just frame it as a system error not a management delay
      “The system does this weird thing that (insert explanation from above), I just wanted to check with you I’m still okay to still enter my leave as I have been as it appears I am taking more then I should”

  83. achoo*

    Can you coach someone into embracing “better done than perfect?”

    I have a bunch of high-achieving direct reports. Part of their jobs, but not the totality of them, is to paint flowers on teapots. (using an AAM analogy here.) A customer will say, “I want a red flower”, I paint the teapot, then present it to the customer who claps their hands and oos and ahhs and then I move on. I’ve done this a long time and I can create a darn good red flower in a relatively short period of time. Could I create an even BETTER red flower if I spent MORE time? Sure, but I have other things to do and the payoff is not different.

    But my reports…they want to research all the red flowers, then study a red rose in detail, then painstakingly handcraft each petal onto the teapot, and throw out a teapot if one thorn is misplaced… you get the idea. Now, when they present this masterpiece to the customer, the customer *may*, but not usually, clap with extra vigor. But the reports are scared to death that the customer will not like the teapot. Note this almost never happens.

    So I think I’m dealing with some imposter syndrome, relative inexperience, and anxiety. They admit the pressure comes from within. But because they have other responsibilities, they start stressing out about getting everything done, start taking the teapots home with them, come in on the weekends to fuss with that final coat. They are burning out.

    The workload is not unreasonable and if they’d give up the dream of perfection and chasing the high of possible-extra-clapping, they’d be fine. But how do I get them to see this?

    1. Auntie Social*

      Perfect is the enemy of done. You might give the client an option of a red rose or a red gardenia, but after that time is a component of every decision. Remind them of The Paper Chase, when Hart so obsesses about a research project for Prof. Kingsfield that he blows the deadline, and Kingsfield has someone else do the project. The quest for perfection = failure. Perfection isn’t wild applause from a client, perfection is not burning out. So maybe they need to start timing themselves—roses take X minutes, final coats take Y minutes, statement to client takes Z minutes, etc. And they just allow themselves so much time to each project and then move on.

    2. Reba*

      Do you have some observations about how your team members are together? This kind of makes me think that they get each other worked up, if several people are behaving this way. This is definitely how some people manage stress — reassuring themselves that everyone else is this stressed, too! So there might be an interpersonal dynamic to this, as well as the psychological one.

      I’d tell them what you said here, emphasizing that they need to realign their work priorities. Because that’s what this is about — they are caring more about the customer claps and less about what you want them to care about. And be firm that they *cannot* take the teapots home, because the point is to spend less time on them, not more.

      Would it work with your projects to say “This teapot should take one week; work on it for one week and then you must stop”? Try to make it so the goal they have to meet is not “produce the best, fanciest possible teapot” but “produce X teapots in Y amount of time.”

      1. achoo*

        Reba, you are wise. They completely work each other up. I’ve been encouraging them to collaborate with people in other departments, but they are close to each other and our work only overlaps with others so much.

        Unfortunately, the teapots do take varying amounts of time. If a customer wants a llama, it’s going to take longer than a red flower. Some weeks I’ll have 5 teapots due, and others weeks 1. And sometimes a week in which I have 5 teapots will also be full of other time sensitive tasks, so I have even less time to do teapot work than usual, but then I might find myself with just oodles of time to play with the 1. And that’s okay- but everyone has to be ready to be flexible and ready to manage their time.

        1. Reba*

          That’s still something you can address! “I need you to be able to balance teapot production with other tasks, and your prioritization needs to shift flexibly week to week.” This may need weekly check ins for a while. The challenge for you I think will be figuring out how to measure and mark what you think reasonable time frames *are* — I have the impression that you have a gut sense of this but maybe your reports need to develop one still?

          As for the attitude… maybe discuss a 2020 reset on work stress in your department? :)

  84. AndersonDarling*

    It seems like most of the End Of Year Updates that Alison published had happy endings. I was surprised how many referenced internal changes/restructuring/promotions. It makes me wonder if there is a buzz in the business air that companies are reviewing their workforce and making changes for the better.

    1. Allypopx*

      Interesting, I’ve seen discussion elsewhere that the updates were pretty disappointing this year, on the whole.

      1. Allypopx*

        (Not that Alison or the LWs were disappointing just that there weren’t a ton of exciting or satisfying outcomes)

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          So many people end up moving on anyway that the original issue is moot. I kind of feel like there’s a lesson there TBH.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think a lot of it is that we’ve seen so many awful things as a joint community, that we have a bad taste in our mouths and often expect the worst.

      When in reality, once you speak up or put your foot down in a lot of these cases, people do change.

      I see a lot of “people don’t change, ever.” comments around here. When I’m a personal walking contradiction of that, along with many people within my life. So honestly, I’m not surprised and I don’t think much is changing in terms of how businesses operate. They’ve always often listened to their unhappy employees, they just cannot read minds!

      Lots of people just flee and then leave their feelings in cod after the fact. Which I agree with completely but in reality, you don’t always know that if you don’t speak up, it won’t result in change. Fear is awful and is the driving factor a lot of the time of course.

  85. Is it Friday yet?*

    I started a new job 6 months ago working under a manager of a department of three. My co-worker began two weeks after I did. My manager has worked here for 5+ years and previously had 2 direct reports who were let go about 4 months before we were hired. At that time, the roles were completely restructured. Because of this, there has been a lot of confusion between my co-worker, myself and other departments as to who is responsible for what. I have tried to be patient since we’re all new to working together, and I knew it might take some time for us to find our footing and for processes to fall into place, but my boss is extremely hands off and actually never meets with us on-on-one. He doesn’t seem to have any idea who is working on what or how long projects take. Since I have been here, I’ve felt overwhelmed by taking on work that HAD to be done that I later came to find out from our HR department my co-worker should actually be doing. I have discussed all of these issues with my manager for many months in many different formats (in person, email, phone, etc.) and have even presented suggestions on how to improve the situation. For example, before our holiday break, I recommended we go through an exercise of creating a RACI matrix. He didn’t know what that was or even look at the link I had sent him but instead got defensive about how I want everything organized and our company just isn’t like that… The thing is that the rest of the company isn’t this dysfunctional. It’s only HIS department. I am not sure what he does all day since we hardly ever meet or speak, but he is a bottleneck for me in many projects that require tight turnarounds. His procrastination and lack of responsiveness frequently leaves me in the lurch, and I’m finding myself constantly trying to complete projects with unrealistic deadlines for no other reason than his disorganization and lack of urgency. Our HR person (admittedly) does not fully understand the scope of this problem since it is highly technical and has just encouraged me to continue talking to him and making suggestions for a solution. I’m not the type of person to EVER go to HR with an issue. I’ve been working in my field for more than 10 years, and I would not have gone to our HR person if I felt I hadn’t tried everything on my own already without success, so at this point I’m at a loss for what to do. Any ideas?

    1. Kiwiii*

      To deal with the assignments problem – since HR seems to know which of you should be doing what, can you ask them for your job descriptions/roles so that you and your coworker can collaborate to get work assigned to the correct places?

      To deal with your manager problem – it may be worth trying to frame it as figuring out how he gets work done/what he does work on to get the best results. If he’s really productive between 1 and 3, remind him of that thing you need approved on his desk at 12:56. You shouldn’t /have/ to handhold your manager like that, but if his turnaround times are slow it might be the easiest way to slowly unstop the bottleneck.

      1. Is it Friday yet?*

        Yes, I brought up the job descriptions, and they met with both of us and wrote out our job descriptions, but I didn’t receive a copy. I suppose I can ask for them. I know my co-worker said she wasn’t really sure what to say when they interviewed her and just told them what she wanted to work on.

        The answer that I always seem to get from him about anything that I need is that he is too busy, but I honestly don’t know what he is so busy with. I do all of our department’s planning, reporting, etc., and I am the one who speaks for our department in meetings. I truly have no idea what he is so busy with, and others in my company have mentioned that they have no clue either.

    2. Auntie Social*

      What did coworker say when you found out s/he was supposed to be doing that task? Did they not know either, or were they trying to get out of doing it?? Are they going it now? Did HR give you any other examples of things that were your job vs their job? Can both you and your coworker go talk to manager’s boss to get helpful ideas about the bottlenecks and disorganization? Can you bypass boss—get approval elsewhere or decide on your own? Get put in another related department? If you’re feeling frustration your coworker must be feeling it too. The grand boss may be the answer, since it’s too technical for HR. A RACI matrix is a simple suggestion that I think grandboss will love. Sadly, your boss doesn’t understand your job or his.

      1. Is it Friday yet?*

        Since I found out co-worker was supposed to be doing the work I have been doing, I have stopped, and she has not been doing it. My boss said he was going to have her start doing it. I have not heard anything else about it. We have both tried to talk to him about meeting when significant changes to a project come up because he has not been informing us, and we got a lot of push back from him about even a 5-minute informal meeting… My co-worker became uncomfortable and stood down, but I continued to respectfully argue about why meeting with us to inform us of significant changes was so crucial. His argument was that he didn’t want to add another meeting to our calendars since we’re all so busy. He reluctantly agreed but has not followed through. I have been working around him and going to other departments to get things done, but HR has asked me to stop doing that because what ends up happening is he makes up his own answers/plan when asked about it in other meetings since he doesn’t know what is actually happening which creates a lot of confusion.

  86. Third or Nothing!*

    Exciting things are brewing over here in A Certain School of Magic and Magic (any other Puffs fans in here?). My new grandboss has given me the green light to find some professional development to dust off the old marketing skill set and start taking back over some of the marketing duties for my company (old grandboss just couldn’t delegate so I ended up as more of an account manager). But, I’ve been having a hard time figuring out what organizations, trade publications, webinar courses, etc would be most helpful. I’ve looked in to our local chapter of the American Marketing Association and it seems pretty dead, but that could just be because of the holiday season. I’m going to reach out and ask them about events soon, but if it turns out that they really don’t do much or it’s all at locations and times I can’t attend, I’d like other options.

    So, U.S. marketers of AAM, what professional organizations do you belong to? What resources have been most helpful in your career? Google is not being very helpful right now.

    1. Marketing Manager*

      I’ve attended a lot of the American Marketing Association workshops – particularly around ROI, Sales/Marketing Alignment, Strategy Development. It’s definitely worth it and helps with Networking, etc. Some other great events are the Marketo Summit and B2B Marketing summit (if you’re a B2B marketer)

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I am a B2B marketer indeed! It’s such a different game than B2C.

        I do hope my local chapter of AMA isn’t as dead as it looks. It sounds like the organization as a whole has a lot of learning opportunities I’d love to take advantage of.

        1. Is it Friday yet?*

          Moz has some great YouTube videos on content marketing for B2B. I’d also look into LinkedIn/Facebook groups for this. That’s where I spend a lot of time interacting with professionals in this industry. Best of luck.

    2. Three owls in a trench coat*

      Haven’t seen Puffs yet myself but have heard rave reviews of it from other fans, so it’s on my bucket list!

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I saw it when they did the special screening in AMC theaters and got a big kick out of it. Did you know it’s coming to DVD at some point? I can’t wait!

  87. Hill60*

    I’m long term unemployed and was wondering if I’m being overly sensitive about something.

    I have a friend that I text with and hang out with once in a while. Whenever we talk, the conversation keeps going back to how awesome her job is and how well her career is going. It feels like she’s bragging and it grates on my nerves. It’s like rubbing salt in my wounds. I always thought she was a bit conceited in general, so it’s possible she always rambled on about work and I didn’t notice until now, but if our positions were reversed, I wouldn’t keep bringing up work and go on and on about it.

    Am I being oversensitive? Should work be mainly an off limits topic when you’re talking to someone who’s unemployed? Right now I’m considering doing a slow fade because I dread having to talk to her.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      You can absolutely tell your friend that it’s hard to listen about how great her job is. A friend should be able to understand. It’s likely as you said, she always talked about it but you are only noticing it now. But if you want to go a more subtle route, you can just have some topics ready to steer the discussion in another direction.

    2. Allypopx*

      Have you said anything? She might not realize how much she’s talking about it. Next time it comes up I would just say something like “Hey I’m really happy things are going so well for you, but could we have a ‘no work talk’ rule for awhile? It’s bumming me out a little bit and I’d like to enjoy my time talking to you.”

      It’s hard for high empathy people to understand sometimes that people truly just aren’t that level of aware and need to be told things. If you haven’t outright asked, I’d start there.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      I’ve been on both sides of this – wondering if it’s weird to talk about my life if the other person is struggling with something similar, and wondering why the other person doesn’t have more – to me – consideration. But really her career is not taking away from your chances, it’s only you making it feel that way – it would be different if it was something she literally got at your expense, like the exact job you applied for went to her. It’s fine to decide you don’t want to be friends with someone who goes on about herself and can’t talk about anything other than work, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect her to know without you mentioning it that talking about her work is unkind.

    4. Fabulous*

      Have you said something to her about it? When I catch up with friends we always have work discussions, especially if exciting things are happening. So maybe she’s just excited to share her news with a good friend not thinking that it may be demoralizing for you, or maybe she’s hoping you might finally have some good news to share too. I doubt she’s intentionally bragging to you about her job; for her it’s probably more a mindless way to fill the conversation.

      Next time, maybe you could say something like this, “I’m really happy your work is going so well, but it’s getting kind of hard for me to hear with being unemployed for so long. Could we hold off on job talk until I have something I can share too?”

    5. MoneyBeets*

      I’m not sure “oversensitive” really applies (or is fair) here; if you’re struggling with something — in this case, unemployment — a friend should be aware enough not to go on and on about the exact thing you’re struggling with. I have a friend/former coworker who retired a few years ago, and about every second or third conversation we have, she asks how things are at work, and regardless of what I tell her, she crows about how much she loves retirement. On the one hand I’m glad she was able to retire and is happy; on the other hand, it sure sounds like “Wow, I’m so glad I’m not you!” after a while. (Sometimes I am tempted to ask her, “If I had lost an arm, would you keep telling me how glad you are to have two arms??” But, eh. We aren’t close enough and don’t talk often enough for me to want to torch the bridge.)

    6. Diahann Carroll*

      I agree with everyone else – you’re not being oversensitive, but if you haven’t told your friend that her endless work talk is hard for you to listen to right now and asked that she stop, then she’s not really in the wrong here either. Yeah, it would be nice if she read the room a little and understood that someone who’s been out of work for awhile may not want to hear about her amazing job, but a lot of people aren’t naturally that self aware. Also, she may not have anything else going on in her life that she thinks is interesting enough to share – I’ve been there. When my personal life is practically non-existent, I default to talking about my career because that’s at least evolving and something that makes me feel good about myself/life in general.

    7. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Deal with it. Your friend isn’t attacking you, she’s just sharing her joy in general. And friends are for sharing things with, joy as well as sorrow.

      If you really can’t handle that, you should dial back your interactions with your friend. Or maybe ask her for some help finding a new job. (I assume from your term “unemployed” that you’re still looking.)

    8. Fikly*

      It’s valid to not want to hear about this from her.

      But it’s unreasonable to expect her to read your mind. Tell her how you feel!

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m going to caution you about talking to her only because of my personal experience here.

      I was the person who got snapped at for talking about my job, very many moons ago to my former girlfriend. It was similar in the fact that she didn’t work [only she wasn’t actively trying to either, which can be a big thing here that may make it different in your case]. So she basically told me she didn’t want to hear about my job. Period. Good or bad. Because it made her jealous/uncomfortable, etc.

      I respect her feelings on the subject. BUT this is my world, this is my life, why should I ever be told to squash it and remove it from the things we can talk about? What do you want to talk about instead? I cannot talk about video games and celebrities 100% of the time because that’s not 100% of my life. I have to be able to speak to my friends about things that are going on in my life, that’s the point of friendships IMO. Otherwise they’re surface only and I don’t have time for watching what I talk about, unless it’s something tragic that triggers someone but if what triggers you is that I have a job that I like, I cannot help that and I just opt out from the friendship.

      So you’re not wrong to feel the way you do but I’d approach it with caution. You may need to remove this friendship in general for your own mental health. But you are going to have to keep in mind that you can pull the plug or she may pull the plug, if you think she’s self centered and conceited, it’s probably better to just cut ties.

      1. Fikly*

        This is a troubling comment. Were you only in this friendship for how it could benefit you? Yes, there should be topics that worked for both of you to talk about, but if you didn’t want to hear about video games and celebrities, why should the other person have to hear about your job? It goes both ways.

        You shouldn’t talk about something that upsets a friend out of respect for the friend. A friendship is about you supporting them, and them supporting you. If all you see from a friendship is how it supports you, that’s not a friendship, that’s you using someone else.

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          People should be happy for their friends…not force their friends to self-censor to avoid triggering their own shortcomings.

          It’s like an incel — which I was for a very long time — asking others not to gush about their relationships. (I made such a request once and only once. Years later, when I understood what I’d done wrong, I wrote the other person to apologize.)

          If you can’t separate your own, say, chronic unemployment from your friend’s joy about her job, you might consider therapy (which worked for me).

          Good luck!

  88. Deloris Van Cartier*

    I need to host a few small webinars for an event I’m hosting and I was wondering if anyone had a favorite platform to do this on. There are a lot out there but I’m just not sure which would be best. Thanks!

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      The new office I’m in uses Zoom, and I’ve actually really liked it. It’s extremely easy to use for me. I think to get a certain number of attendees for a certain amount of time, you need to pay for a certain account type (instead of the free version), but overall I’ve been pleasantly surprised by it. Plus it allows you to record the session for distribution later which could be valuable in a webinar.

      1. Deloris Van Cartier*

        Thank you! I’ve been looking at zoom as an option so helpful to know that it’s easy to use.

    2. MML*

      I love Zoom and Go to Webinar! For reference, I use HubSpot to host my website, and those two work nicely since they integrate directly.

      If you don’t use HubSpot, I’ve heard On24 is a good choice as well, although I’ve never used it myself.

      1. Deloris Van Cartier*

        Thank you for the suggestions! I’ve been drowning in articles about options so having some real opinions are helpful!

  89. Miss May*

    You know that meme of the dog and everything around him is on fire and he saying, “this is fine.” That’s how 2020 is going for me so far, work wise. The economy being what it is (who knew the trade war would affect me?), and the environmental set backs mean we’re undergoing “restructuring” effective immediately.

    My job is safe, but dang, I need to get out of here.

  90. nonyfrog*

    Anyone else work at a place with a social media directive? We received one this week* that has directives on our personal use. One aspect makes sense–specifying that they don’t like it when we break the law with our social media, for example. But it also asks us to not defame them or discuss them when it’s not something of “real public concern.” And it specifies that both our workplace and personal social media needs to meet certain standards, of the professional and ethical variety. All capped off with the assurance that, oh, we do sure love freedom of speech, don’t you worry, which is…weird.

    I’ve just got a weird feeling about it. I also do some freelance blogging on the side and I’m worried about whether they could use something I say in my freelance work to bite me in the butt. (We’re a largely functional org with a history of the few bad apples in management getting away with pulling stupid stunts every once in a while, so.) Additional wrinkle: we’re funded by the county, to the point that they handle some of our payroll even though we’re technically distinct. We already get the lecture twice a year from the county lawyer about how what we say on social media/private e-mails could be a matter of public record. (Florida!) So adding this on feels extra weird. I asked the union for their take on it but they haven’t gotten back to me.

    *Not this week, but I want to avoid being too identifying and I’m still thinking about it, so. I want to quote it more directly than I can because it has a very weird tone to it all.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Know this: You DO NOT have freedom of speech at work or in Corporate America.
      You cannot be arrested for what you say (unless it’s deemed a threat) and that is what freedom of speech truly refers to, but you can and will be fired if your work does not like it, EVEN if what you said was on your own personal blog, podcast or social feed.

      And yes, your employer could very well ‘invade your privacy’ and fire you over something you’ve blogged about if they felt it was detrimental to their organization. Nothing online is truly private anymore.

      There are many well-documented instances of employees being fired for what they say on their own social or blog posts. Even journalists can be fired for what they write or post in some cases (so much for freedom of the press nowadays!). Florida is not an especially good state for worker’s rights, so I would be very wary and blog under a pseudonym if your material is controversial. And for goodness sakes, don’t ever do anything on your work computer!

      1. Picard*

        The exception to this in the US is if your speech involves anything to do with working conditions.

        Employees who are not represented by a union also have rights under the NLRA. Specifically, the National Labor Relations Board protects the rights of employees to engage in “concerted activity”, which is when two or more employees take action for their mutual aid or protection regarding terms and conditions of employment. A single employee may also engage in protected concerted activity if he or she is acting on the authority of other employees, bringing group complaints to the employer’s attention, trying to induce group action, or seeking to prepare for group action.

        A few examples of protected concerted activities are:

        Two or more employees addressing their employer about improving their pay.
        Two or more employees discussing work-related issues beyond pay, such as safety concerns, with each other.
        An employee speaking to an employer on behalf of one or more co-workers about improving workplace conditions.

        Link: www DOT nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/rights/employee-rights

        1. MissDisplaced*

          Yes, but good luck with that.
          They will still fire you if they want to because it is “At Will” employment or worse “Right to Work” employment. You can be fired for any reason or none at all.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            “Right to work” has nothing to do with whether or not you can be fired.

            “At will” employment does not protect termination for specifically illegal reasons.

            I understand why you’re so negative about this, but I don’t think dissuading people from knowing and exercising their rights is the way to go.

    2. Leopard*

      From the context you’ve given, it sounds like this is more about their reputation. But I’d like to note that it can also be a big concern for the cybersecurity of an org (and especially a gov. org) when workers put seemingly innocuous info out on social media – because that info can be used to make phishing emails more realistic, help people more accurately guess your passwords, or even expose details about the setup of the network, security protocols in use, and so on.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      That sounds about right, honestly.

      My job has a lot of similar directives in terms of ethical and professional things we can/cannot say, and ways in which we can and cannot talk about/interact with our firm’s official social media accounts. A lot of it is just part and parcel with the job; we’re licensed professionals and our names/professional personae are publicly linked with our jobs and our employer regardless of what we do or don’t put on Facebook/Twitter/Linkedin.

      Because of that public exposure, we do have to be circumspect about what we say with our names attached. I’ve got personal social media that is locked down to friends I know very well and contains no readily identifying information (does not require real names, no face pictures, etc) on which I can do my venting, but even there I don’t mention my firm by name.

      Now, granted, by working in this industry, I signed up for that kind of scrutiny, and I accept it as being the price of admission to a job I like and an industry I find fascinating.

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Yes, my work had social media guidelines. They were very gentle, and mostly aimed at our teen employees who had a knack for taking bong hits in their staff shirts and then posting it on Instagram.

      Basically, you couldn’t post pictures of yourself doing anything illegal, at all, and if you mentioned work directly it had to be in line with the marketing guidelines and include a disclaimer that you were posting as a person, not as a representative of the company and the thoughts in the post were your own. Things like hate speech and defamation were also against the rules.

    5. Fikly*

      Well, freedom of speech doesn’t apply to anything other than the government removing your freedom of speech.

      But yeah, I’d be wary.

  91. Blue Princess Holly*

    How would you disclose to your manager needing support in your work due to a medication change/medical condition, without necessarily disclosing the condition or medication?
    I have some ideas but I was wondering if anyone else had some too.

    1. Fabulous*

      “I recently had a change in medication that is making it hard for me to do X. Is it possible for me to get some short-term (or long-term based on your needs) support in that area?” I’d also suggest building a specific list of things you’ll need help with so your boss isn’t left wondering how to help.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I would focus on what accommodations/support you need as opposed to why. You do want to give a reason, of course, but it can simply be “because of a change in medication, I will need _____” and focus on how it will affect you/your work/how to mitigate that.

    3. Allypopx*

      I usually pre-empt, if I know it’s going to be a tough adjustment (I have one med that ALWAYS sucks to adjust) but even in the moment I’d probably say something vague like “I am adjusting a medication right now, nothing major but I’m having some short term side effects and [impact on work], could we [accomodation needed]?” Good managers won’t push, but if they do you can just say “Really it’s nothing interesting, but [redirect to work needs].”

    4. Close Bracket*

      If you don’t even want to disclose that medication is at the root, you could say, “I’m getting treated for something, and there’s going to be an adjustment period. Is it possible to get accommodations for X and Y?” I would be sure to use the “accommodations” word as it has a legal meaning.

  92. You can call me flower, if you want to*

    Our office only closed on Christmas Day and New Years Day during the holidays. I’ve talked to a lot of people at other companies who are thoroughly enjoying lengthy breaks. A lot of people seem surprised I didn’t have more time off and was expected to be in the office early morning on Dec 26 for our regular Thursday morning meeting. I didn’t think that holiday breaks were standard. Do most people get holiday breaks? Is our company odd is how they handle this? Are most people just taking PTO?

    1. Third or Nothing!*

      We were officially off December 25-26 and January 1. I used PTO to get a whole week off for Christmas.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This was me, except I also took off Dec. 30 and 31 too. I only had to use five days of PTO and now my five remaining days should be rolling over into the new year (I’m new, so I need to keep a close eye on my vacation bucket in ADP to make sure I wasn’t hoodwinked, lol).

    2. Triple Threat Diversity Hire*

      We did the same – only Dec 25 and Jan 1 were given as holidays, and many people used PTO to extend their vacations. However, it’s definitely not true across the board, since friends and family were mildly appalled at that.

    3. ThatGirl*

      We also get Christmas Eve off, but otherwise the office is open, with an early closing on New Year’s Eve. That said, a lot of people do use PTO for a good chunk of that, so it’s pretty quiet. It does depend on the company, but I think a lot of places are officially open.

      1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

        Same with me. I’ve never had a job (other than a school job in college) that was closed more than a couple of days for Christmas.

    4. cat socks*

      My company is closed on the 24th, 25th and the 1st. The majority of people take off the last two weeks of the year. I think for people with kids this coincides with school breaks.

      There is no official “shut down” period, but it’s the norm for people to take PTO during this time so the majority of meetings get canceled. Also, there are some employees that have unlimited time off so they don’t need to save vacation days for the end of the year.

      I work in IT for a telecom company. A lot of our offshore developers are usually working during this time.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      We were only closed the 25th and the 1st. All other time had to be PTO.
      But it’s been really empty for two weeks and you can’t expect immediate responses.

    6. Llama Wrangler*

      I think it depends a bit on location and sector. My company does education-related work and even though we’re technically closed the 24th/25th/26th and the 31st/1st, they have given us the whole week off the last few years. My partner works in tech and had only half days on the 24th/31st and then full days on the 25th/1st.

    7. Antilles*

      I’d guess they just took PTO. My broad-strokes generalization with offices, both personal and observing others:
      1.) Offices are typically closed on December 25th and January 1st in most industries. I don’t recall the exact number, but I looked actual stats on this a while back and it’s something like 70+% of private companies shut down on the holidays themselves.
      2.) Christmas Eve and New Year’s Eve don’t seem to have any ‘standard’ as far as I can tell – seems to be a fairly even split between companies that are entirely closed, companies that do a shortened day, and companies that treat it like any other random Tuesday.
      3.) The rest of the holiday season, companies are usually ‘open’, but a huge percentage of the employees intentionally save their PTO to take the time off. Some companies do decide to shut down entirely, but they definitely seem to be the minority overall.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think it’s very company- or industry-dependent. My company shuts down between Christmas Eve and New Year’s Day, but I have worked in a couple of places that didn’t. However, at those companies, it was understood that we would have a skeleton crew and regular meetings were generally canceled. I always worked over Christmas Week and almost always left an hour early. My partner is a Fed and took leave for most days last week, but he had to be in on Monday and Tuesday (and he worked until 5pm on Tuesday). So I think every company handles it differently. However, I don’t know a single ad agency that doesn’t shut down over the holidays– but that’s the only industry I know of where there appears to be more of a standard (and that could just be the agencies I’ve done business with).

    9. Kiwiii*

      My workplace was holiday pay on 12/25 and 1/1 Only, though most people took at least an additional couple days off and we have a really flexible WFH/remote policy so the office has been pretty empty both weeks. (I, personally, took Monday/Tuesday both weeks for some family time.) Last job had 12/24, 12/25, 12/31, and 1/1 off as paid holidays.

      1. Kiwiii*

        I know that academia is usually off for a couple of weeks. It may be that a lot of other people on long breaks are from other countries?

        1. Alianora*

          Yep, I’m at a university and we have obligatory time off (as do most of my contacts at other universities). It’s 10 days off in total. We use 3 days of our own PTO, there are 4 holidays, and the university covers the additional 3 days without making us use our own vacation days. Definitely one of the most appreciated perks of the job.

    10. Amber Rose*

      We’re officially required to get the 25th, 26th and Jan 1st off as those are stats. My office makes us work Remembrance Day and then gives us the 24th in lieu so we get at least three days.

      Other than that, anything additional is PTO. Which really sucked this year, because having to work Monday and Friday, and then Monday/Tuesday, ugh. I hate having New Years in the middle of the week.

    11. Super Duper Anon*

      My office was only closed for the three Canadian stat holidays, 25/26/1st. I just used my PTO to cover a longer break.

    12. Can't Sit Still*

      We were closed for 12/23 – 12/25 and 12/31 – 1/1. Most people either took PTO or worked from home on Thursdays and Fridays. Virtually everyone took 12/30 as a vacation day or WFH. All non-essential meetings were cancelled, though.

      I came in to the office only because the internet was painfully slow at home and my commute is extremely short during the holidays. It’s actually faster to take the freeway for a change.

    13. BlueWolf*

      We only get Christmas Day (sometimes Christmas Eve if Christmas Day is on a Tuesday or something) and New Year’s Day off. I usually take a few days of PTO because it’s generally a slow time for us since a lot of people take off then as well.

    14. WellRed*

      I don’t know that they are odd, but they are a bit stingy. Who wants an early morning meeting after what for many is a major holiday? It also means people can’t travel.

    15. we're basically gods*

      I got the 25th and the 1st off, but spent the week of Christmas working from home, which was really nice– it meant I could spend time with my grandpa and bake some cookies while waiting for code to compile.

    16. What's with Today, today?*

      I’m an air personality and low level manager in media. We were off on Christmas. Office staff was off on Christmas Day and NYD. That was it.

    17. Nom de Plume*

      We are closed 12-25 and 1-1 much a lot of people take vacation time. That’s what I did this year. The places I know of that close around the holidays and give everyone the time off are either schools or factories. In the case of factories, there’s a cost benefit to shutting down the line when they will have a skeleton crew and lower productivity otherwise.

    18. Mia 52*

      It seems like most people here have at least two weeks off which is really strange to me. We are also only closed on those days and operations went on as normal throughout the rest of the days. I did leave 3 hours early on Xmas eve though.

    19. CheeryO*

      I do think it’s a bit odd that your 12/26 meeting went on as scheduled. We only get the 25th and 1st also, but it was still a ghost town last week since most people took some PTO. Guess it depends how stingy your company is and how many people needed to travel for Christmas.

    20. Aphrodite*

      I work in higher education in California. The college is closed from Christmas Eve (December 24 ) through New Year’s Day (January 1). But education and government get a lot more than many private industries.

    21. Moth*

      We were only officially closed on 12/25 and 01/01, but most people on the business development side of the company took off at least an entire week, if not two full weeks using PTO. It’s expected that most people do that, so pretty much all meetings are put on hold for that two-week period. The two exceptions are the manufacturing side of the company, which operates on a leaner staff during that time, but is still running on non-holiday days, and employees who haven’t been here for long and haven’t built up much PTO. I remember being a little resentful my first year whenever someone would ask, “Why aren’t you taking more time off?!” Um, because I don’t have the PTO and instead have to come sit in the office and get nothing done because no one else is here!

      It’s definitely industry-dependent though. I’ve worked at other companies that only closed on the official holidays and you were expected to work all days in between. And I’ve worked the front desk at hotels, which doesn’t have any holidays at all!

  93. Mrs. C*

    I could use some advice from the group! I have a final-round interview coming up next week. There are some yellow flags that I’m planning to ask a lot of questions about, and I’m having trouble wording one of those questions.

    Background info: At my last job, I was on a hiring committee, where we spoke with Wakeen, who turned out to be a very weak candidate. The qualities that really turned us off* could be due to inexperience (and he could have learned and grown since then) or they might still be in play today.

    Pre-interview research showed that Wakeen now works at the company I’m interviewing at, and I’d have to work on some projects with him. I’d be senior to him, although my impression is that he’d report to someone else, who doesn’t have experience in the types of projects that Wakeen & I would be working on together. I’m curious if there’s a delicate way to ask (perhaps during a call where I’m offered the job) if Wakeen seems to have grown into a stronger employee in the last couple years. Unfortunately, the way the hiring process is structured, I only get to meet a couple of the staff members, and I won’t have a chance to talk to Wakeen directly.

    How do I get that info, without seeming like I would come in to the position with an axe to grind against Wakeen?

    *I’m purposefully being vague on the details, so as to not identify the industry we’re in.

    1. annony*

      I’m not sure there is a good way to ask considering you never even worked with him before. Would one weak coworker matter a huge amount to whether you want there job? Chances are you will have to work with someone mediocre pretty much anywhere you go. I would be more concerned if he would be your direct report or if you would be working for him.

      1. Mrs. C*

        The specific qualities that Wakeen was weak in could lead to a big, public mess for the organization, and the person in my role would be left to clean up the significant fallout. It could hurt my professional reputation by association, and change the dynamic of the job to one where I’m working unusually long hours and dealing with bunches of angry people for an extended period.

        I don’t know that that one possibility alone would be enough to make me reject the job, but combined with how they answer some of my other questions, it could tip the scales.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t think you will be able to get many details, but you can ask about the team you will be working with. This is a standard question I ask at interviews. I generally want to know the experience of my team…but really I’m looking to see if the manager has good things to say about the team or if they stumble because they don’t really know their direct reports.
      This company may have given Wakeen the support and structure necessary for him to succeed. You probably won’t really know unless you are offered and accept the job.

    3. Disco Janet*

      Unfortunately, I’m not sure this is possible! Even if you just mentioned that you’ve meet Wakeen before and we’re wondering how he is doing, I doubt anyone is going to speak negatively to a potential new hire about an employee who wouldn’t be reporting to you.

      You could ask about how they function as a team and mention having met Wakeen before…but even that is iffy, as it seems not great to be sharing who employees have interviewed with in the past, particularly in a negative way.

    4. revueller*

      Honestly, the only safe way to answer that question is to find out for yourself how Wakeen is doing in those projects. Overall, unless working with Wakeen is a dealbreaker, I would steer clear of mentioning him at all.

    5. Kiwiii*

      I think it may be worth considering that Wakeen might have had an off couple of interviews with you or that the role he was in when he joined the new organization was more junior than you would generally expect. Unless you go in Knowing he’s had poor performance in a job rather than a hiring process, it doesn’t seem worth it to be concerned about when considering your own interviewing experience. Focus on yourself! If you really need to, ask questions about encouraging growth of employees.

      1. Mrs. C*

        Unfortunately, it was more an issue of his judgement – what he saw as acceptable vs. unacceptable behavior. And it’s one of those scenarios where, even if you explain why certain practices are unethical in our field, some people might disagree (i.e., talking about the issue might not solve it). He was very confident in the interview with us that his plan was to commit the unethical behavior at our company – so it wasn’t an example of a fluke or nerves.

    6. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you try posing it as a general hypothetical? As in, how would it be handled if I ran into an issue like X with a team member I don’t manage? Would I go through their manager? What steps would be taken? How long does that process take? Etc. Has anything like that happened before, and how did you handle it then?

      Try to get an idea of how seriously they’d take a problem like the one you’re worried about, and potentially a grasp on how the team has worked in the past. I think it’s reasonable to ask about dynamics and processes around working with a team you won’t manage when their work is so critical and influential to your role.

      1. Mrs. C*

        Ooh! I like this strategy! It’d be hard to bring up the specific issue I’m worried about, but I could probably think of some comparables to substitute. Thank you!

    7. Violet Devine*

      Perhaps you can ask how they structure projects/work to ensure X doesn’t happen. The real issue isn’t Wakeen, but the risk of X happening. Asking about him in any way is weirdly personal.
      Also, if you had no idea Wakeen worked there at all, would X have jumped out as a possibility?

  94. Meg*

    Has anyone interviewed candidates for their new boss before? What questions did you ask that went well?

    My boss, who was also the head of the department left early in 2019, and no moves were made to replace her until the end of the year. We’re finally interveiwing, and I’ll be part of a panel interview with others from my (now very reduced) department. The stakes feel really high for this…I’m not sure if I’m going to stay in this job no matter what based on the way the organization has handled the last 10 months. But there’s a slim chance the right boss could turn it around, and a definite chance the wrong boss could make me miserable. I’ve never interviewed a potential boss before, so I don’t have a ton of ideas on what to ask. Any thoughts?

    2. Lisa B*

      What were some things you liked or didn’t like about your former boss’s style? Try and work those in, because whatever comes to your mind first probably mean a lot to you (traits you hope the next person will either keep or not have!)

      How do you like to be kept up to speed on your team’s projects? What’s your approach to giving feedback? How do you conduct performance reviews? What happened the last time you had to give critical feedback to an employee? What’s the biggest/smallest number of direct reports you’ve had before?

      1. Meg*

        those are good things to think about…I really loved my former boss, and the time since she’s been gone has been reaallyyyy rough (mostly in the way my org has handled it) so the stakes feel so high that I was having a hard time figuring out where to start!

    3. Sleepy*

      Women, how do you deal with condescending treatment from older men? I’m not talking sexual harassment, I’m talking someone making super obvious suggestions you’d already thought of or trying to get you to do secretary-like tasks.

      I’ve been in education / non profits for my whole career so very few men, esp older men. Now I’ve been promoted enough to start dealing with our board and they treat me so insultingly, at least the older guys do.

    4. Natalie*

      A second round interview with the team is standard in my org, both for my direct supervisor and their supervisor, and as it happens we’ve had a few of those in the year I’ve been here. What I find more important than the questions themselves is how the person answers them. Are their answers specific, or is it just platitudes or vagueness? Listen to the specifics more than anything else.

      1. Meg*

        that’s a good reminder! I’ve been on a bunch of panel interviews in this job, but they’ve always been for peers. You’re right though, that in those situations it’s usually not the questions answers that I pay attention to (with the notable exception of someone who gave a suuuuper racist answer once).

  95. Higher Ed Question today*

    I’m applying for a job in higher ed that requires a diversity statement. I have a long history of promoting diversity, so I have too much to say if I talk about experience. But it’s such a normal thing for me to promote and accept diversity that I’ve never given any thought to making a statement of it – I just do it.

    Tips, anyone? Thanks in advance.

    1. Allypopx*

      If someone who doesn’t generally promote and actively accept diversity asked you for advice on how to start doing more, what would you tell them?

    2. Reba*

      If you have a long history promoting diversity, you will also have seen the positive effects — you will be able to articulate the “why” of DEI much more vividly than people who haven’t already been engaged in this work.

      Re: too much experience, don’t gloss over it just because “you always do it” or there is too much to say! Think of 2-3 signal examples of when you have made positive efforts, make it clear that this is “among other projects,” and tell about them in a simple narrative.

      Good luck!

    3. Lady Jay*

      There was a FANTASTIC Twitter thread about this a few days ago. I’ll link it to it in a reply, but in case the moderation takes awhile, it’s by @Samniqueka_H (Dr. Samniqueka Halsey), dated 30 December 2019. The replies are trash, don’t read them, but the thread itself is great.

  96. Triple Threat Diversity Hire*

    Any tips on how to get into your first people-management job when you can’t be directly promoted into one? I recently missed out on the only management opportunity to arise in our department within the past four years (I was qualified but not the best applicant due to experience/seniority), and I don’t really see a lot of potential for similar positions on other teams within the same company. I have about five years of specialized technical work and increasing informal leadership experience, but have never been a formal team lead despite having shown a strong desire to go into management for a few years (this org is very hierarchical and there was already someone in that spot). Is it realistically possible to get hired elsewhere as a first-time manager or even a team lead, or do I need to focus my search on getting hired as an individual contributor and then take a chance on whether I’ll ever be able to make the switch?

    1. Council'd*

      You can probably lean hard on your informal leadership experience and project leadership experience and get hired as a first time manager somewhere.

    2. Blarg*

      I’d work on informal leadership roles — take on students, like for short externships, be the lead for projects where you assign tasks and give feedback on work product, sit on interview committees or when selecting vendors. And look outside your company — boards of non-profits, charity events always need people to step up and take leadership roles.

      Then you make sure you can answer the interview questions — tell us about a time when you handled an employee whose contributions weren’t meeting expectations. Tell us about a time when two employees had a conflict they couldn’t resolve.

      And then the only thing you haven’t done is actually be the hire/fire supervisor. I’ve never been the boss-boss, on purpose, and have been surprised how much of my experiences ‘count’ as management in the eyes of interviewers. Even though I don’t even want it to. :)

      Good luck! And don’t discount the experience you already have just because of title or your org’s structure.

    3. TCO*

      I got hired into my first management role relatively recently, and I was also a finalist for a couple of other management roles while interviewing. While I didn’t have any experience managing FT permanent employees, I did have experience managing student employees, interns, and volunteers, and that seemed to help. I was actually pleasantly surprised that I was considered as a competitive candidate for management roles (managing 1-3 people, not huge teams) given that my experience is somewhat limited.

      I work in a field with a lot of smaller organizations (nonprofits) where room for upward growth within an organization is just naturally limited by its size. Maybe that makes it more understandable to hiring managers why people seek steps up into management roles externally rather than internally.

  97. Disco Janet*

    Winter break is almost over…I’ve been super focused on getting my house clean and orderly since it had gotten ridiculously cluttered and messy since school started. I’m finally almost done and feeling very accomplished! But I haven’t graded any papers. Not a single one. My computer has been on its last legs and finally died at the beginning of break, and I didn’t they a new one until yesterday. And I told my students they would get their essays back on Monday. I am not in for a relaxing final weekend of break. I could always just tell them about the computer dying and delay it…but I really hate going back on my word like that. Blah. Grading essays always makes me temporarily regret the decision to be a English teacher. No offense to my students – it’s just so time consuming!

    1. Cap. Marvel*

      You know, things happen. If you’re generally kind to your students when they experience this type of problem then I think you can extend yourself the same courtesy. It’s not like you’re going to push it off until next month. You’ll probably have some done and be finished by the end of the week.
      Unless this essay is part of a larger project that they need before they can do the other parts, I think you can allow yourself some more time.

      2. Disco Janet*

        That’s true. I’ve just been having the kind of year where things keep popping up that cause me to get work back later than I had hoped for (dad in hospital, sick kid, the computer I just replaced also broke earlier this year, etc.), so I’m just trying to avoid it becoming a pattern. On the plus side, the other 10th grade English teacher just told me she doesn’t have hers done either, so at least I wouldn’t be alone. I have about 20 of them graded…but that’s out of 150.

        I am generally flexible with them when life stuff happens. They just in general have no concept for how long grading takes. Regardless of how many times I run through the math (five minutes per paper times 150 students is 12.5 hours of grading! And it always takes me longer due to the fact that my own children are small and constantly interrupting), I ALWAYS have students who ask me if their essays are graded yet the day after they turn them in. Drives me mad.

        1. Cap. Marvel*

          I’m sorry to hear about your dad, I hope he’s feeling better. And you’ve made progress! It’s not a ton, but it’s a start. If you finish, you finish. If you don’t, then you don’t. This isn’t because you purposefully put it off. You had every intention of getting it done but life happens.

          I do understand their frustration because I (sadly) was one of those students. One of my teachers in high school jokingly told us that they’ll mark us down every time we asked about our papers to get us to stop asking and realize how annoying we were. Personally, I’d rather wait and have a teacher who gave good feedback than one who just glanced at a paper I worked really hard on to make a deadline that wasn’t doable.

          My last take on this is that they’re better off knowing that their teacher is human and sometimes things come up. I’d honestly tell them to cool their jets or I’ll hold onto their papers longer. You seem a lot nicer than me though.

  98. AnonyNurse*

    So I’ve had a mess of a job situation for the last six months, and then I got interviews for two very intriguing positions. Got an offer for one that was stronger than I would have asked for in a negotiation, and because I had concerns about some of the institutional politics at the other place anyway, I withdrew that application and accepted the offer.

    Before Christmas. But this is a large healthcare org which normally does twice monthly new hire orientation but not in Dec/Jan. So I still don’t start for another week+ and I’m trying not to freak out. I’ve had so many weird things go wrong job-wise since summer that I keep waiting for something to fall through.

    Adding to the strain, this job takes me back to a setting I’d intentionally left a decade ago, but in a very different context and in a different city. I know that just because X was a terrible place for me doesn’t mean Y will be, since the issues were internal and not inherent to the field.

    So basically excited about the possibilities (and the paycheck!) and anxious til I actually start.

      1. AnonyNurse*

        Thanks! I’m trying to enjoy the “nice” parts of being unemployed (I’ve read dozens of library books in the last few months) and also getting back into good habits around sleep hygiene and such.

  99. Longtime Lurker*

    What do people think of referring to a group of female colleagues as “ladies” (as an alternative to the cringe-inducing “girls”)? Does it make a difference if I’m including myself? E.g., “Oh, looks like this meeting is just us ladies today!”

    1. Rey*

      In reading it, my gut prefers “women” and I think it works in that sentence.

      In that exact sentence though, I also wonder about the possibility that you might not know about non-binary folks, so maybe not worth using ladies or women at all…

    2. Pennalynn Lott*

      “Oh, looks like this meeting is just us women today!”

      I try to always, always use “women”. Because I can’t imagine a man walking into a room full of other men and exclaiming, “Oh, looks like this meeting is just us gentlemen today!”

      1. Ginger Baker*

        Can weirdly confirm though that men do this: “Hey gents” and “Gentlemen:” are both intros I’ve seen on multiple emails within groups (on my bosses’ emails, not mine). Super strange to me and kinda offputting (especially now that I am at a company that, though great in general, has a bizarrely high frequency of “girls” coming into play that drives me bonkers…) but I can confirm it happens…

    3. fposte*

      I’m a big no. “Ladies” is a social term, and this isn’t a social situation. “Women” or no gender note at all.

      I also agree with Rey about the nonbinary (or even not knowing how binary people necessarily identify) and think it’s worth our taking a moment to consider whether gender identification is necessary–for instance, there’d be no need to note the gender of the people attending a meeting.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        I think I may have posted it here, but I recently had a[n online] conversation with a co-worker* where we discussed the [lack of] need to identify someone’s gender in a work situation. It went something like this:

        Him: “I was just speaking with [name of person I don’t recognize] about this.”
        Me: “Who’s that?”
        Him: “She’s the new girl who just started in GBS.”
        Me: “Um, please don’t call adult women ‘girls’.”
        Him: “Can I call the women I work with ‘ladies’?”
        Me: “You really shouldn’t. Not unless you’re going to call all the men ‘gentlemen’. Why not just leave gender out of it?”
        Me: “In fact, you could have just said, ‘That’s the new person in GBS.’ No need to use gender at all.”

        * (He is Chinese and is still learning the intricacies of American English. We have conversations like this all the time; it’s not me just up and telling him what words to use).

        1. fposte*

          One of the things I genuinely love about working with people newly arrived from other countries is that I get to consciously articulate aspects of our culture that usually operate subtextually, and that it happens in a friendly and nonadversarial way.

    4. iantrovert (they/them)*

      As a nonbinary person who isn’t out at work (yet, because HR are interfering), *all* of those make me cringe internally. Gender presentation != gender identity. Most people don’t draw attention to it, and that’s fine. My otherwise lovely teammate who calls me “girlfriend” is well-meaning but oh so incorrect.

    5. Three owls in a trench coat*

      Seconding Rey and iantrovert about the whole non-binary thing. There may be people in the room who identify as such but for whatever reason aren’t out at work. Like iantrovert said, gender id =/= gender presentation. I’ve met people who present traditionally feminine or masculine but who use they/them.

      Personally I think “theydies and gentlethems” is clever but completely understand some people might not be comfortable with that.

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Uf, please don’t.

      Even discounting the possibility of one of your coworkers not actually being female despite appearances, there are plenty of women who don’t wish to have their gender placed front-and-center at work.

      Obviously, it’s not a terribly high-stakes thing, and you’re unlikely to receive open pushback, but there’s no cost to not saying it in the vast majority of circumstances.

    8. windsofwinter*

      I don’t mind it. My counterpart is a woman and some of the other staff refer to us collectively as “ladies”. Like coming into our area and asking “Ladies, can one of you send me the Teapot Report from this week?” It would be weird to me if she said “Women, can one of you send me this report?” instead. I generally prefer “ladies” to “women” as it sounds less awkward in most contexts. “Folks” is a good neutral term though.

    10. msgumby*

      “Ladies” is a pet peeve of mine- I strongly dislike the cutesy way it calls out gender. “Folks” is much better in any situation.

    11. Policy Wonk*

      Why would you need to do this? Remarking on it that way to me sounds like you think there is something wrong with a meeting of all women. I can guarantee that men wouldn’t blink twice at a meeting of all men.

      Quoting Ruth Bader Ginsburg:
      “When I’m sometimes asked when will there be enough [women on the Supreme Court] and I say, ‘When there are nine,’ people are shocked. But there’d been nine men, and nobody’s ever raised a question about that.”

    12. Mia 52*

      I might say just us gals or not acknowledge it? I don’t mind being called girls or ladies whatsoever as long as the person isn’t using it as a put down and the person saying it is including them within it.

    13. CM*

      My first question would be, “Why does it matter if it’s only women in the group?” If it matters, then I guess say “women,” but if it doesn’t matter, why are you calling attention to it?

      FWIW, I think it IS better if you’re one of the “ladies” — I had a male colleague who referred to the admin department as a group of “ladies” one time and that felt like a messed-up thing to say — but I honestly wouldn’t bring it up at all in most cases.

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I find it obnoxious when people point out that we’re all [supposedly] the same gender. Like…why is this a thing?

      So this is why over the years I stick with “team” and “everyone” instead of “Just us women today!” it’s “Hey everyone, is the whole team here? Good! Let’s get this thing on the road!”

      Gender is irrelevant.

      I also would flinch at the idea of “Oh, looks like this meeting is just us women today.” what…I’m actually fine on a personal level with “girl” for my grown ass [again supposedly] self but this isn’t about me in the end, I just prefer the sound also “women” sounds clinical and I don’t like sterilized speech.

      It’s about inclusion and inclusion means we’re all just “people” and we’re a “team”. Gender needs to be left out of it all.

    15. Lilysparrow*

      If you are working on your habits of speech, it’s not great and would be better to move away from the phrase. I mean, as habits go, why would you need to point out that a work-related meeting happens to be only attended by the women?

      But if it’s just something that popped out and you’re questioning it after the fact, don’t tie yourself in a knot over it. It happens from time to time, it’s not a huge deal.

  100. moql*

    Age discrimination question:

    We have a position that just opened that takes ~1 year to learn, and 3 to become actually useful. Yes, it really is that complicated; we have very location and industry specific information so the transfer skills are low. We pay and support this position extremely well to retain them and people tend to have a 20-35 year tenure. One of the current people is looking to retire in the next few years and so we are hiring now so he can train his replacement. Because of the long training period, we realistically need someone who can stay 5 years (minimum).

    Obviously age discrimination is a real and bad thing, but how do you hire for longevity and not let this affect your hiring process? I’m nowhere near this hiring process; just curious from the outside.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I think the important thing to focus on is that it can truly take that long to get up to speed; someone who’s 50 (or 60, or older) may still be willing, able and happy to stay 5-10 years or more! Spell it out in the job listing, spell it out in the interview(s), and focus on whether the candidate feels they can commit to that, not whether the interviewer thinks they can.

      And honestly, someone in their 20s may not want to commit to that either! I can see a 30+ year tenure being intimidating to someone fresh out of college.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Oh my gosh, yes, this! I’m 53. I started a new career this year. I’m definitely in it for the long haul. (1) I have next-to-know retirement savings, and (2) I’d be bored out my skull if I wasn’t working in a capacity that taxed my brain. (So as much as I fantasize about spending all day socializing cats at the shelter while reading sci-fi, I know I’d only last a week or so).

        Which is to say, I’d be thrilled to start a job that’s so challenging and complex that it would take a full three years before I was really in the groove of things. And I could easily be there for another 20 years.

    2. Anon Here*

      Replying from the far outside – I have never hired anyone.

      I would state in the job posting that you need the person to stay at least five years and let people self-select based on that. It might even be fair to state that applicants less than five years from the standard retirement age would be asked to forgo retirement until the five years are up. You might get some great applicants who are older and don’t want to retire. My grandfather worked into his mid-90’s, when his body couldn’t handle it anymore. He was passionate about his work and had no interest in retirement. Just ask everyone, in the interviews, how long they envision staying.

      Incentives and the work environment should be a bigger part of the picture, though. Make people WANT to stay. What can you do? Raises? Increasing perks? Any kind of extra rewards for longer tenures? How can you make it a better place to work overall? If you focus there, maybe there will be less stress (on your whole team) about hiring and extraneous details won’t come into play as much.

      Also! If you’re worried about bias against younger people who might not have enough experience, just test everyone’s skills. And be open-minded. Some people learn fast, and those people could be great hires.

    3. Rey*

      Our approach in interviews has been to lay out that exact information for candidates: “We find that the best people in this job usually take about 1 year to learn, and 3 to become actually useful, so we’re looking for candidates with that kind of longevity. Do you have any concerns about that timeline?” You could also add something like, “We know that’s a tradeoff, so we do X and Y to retain people. On average, employees in this position tend to have a 20-35 year tenure.” Our interview questions also ask them “Where do you see yourself in five years?” which could also get at what they’re looking for in a job. When the hiring committee is discussing candidates, my boss has always done a great job of steering the conversation around these topics, both to remind us of when we’re speculating on their potential longevity and to focus on who is the most qualified for the position.

      The other thing is that realistically, age isn’t the only thing that might conflict with desired longevity. People might move, go back to school, have medical issues, change fields, etc. And even with older people, some people work much longer than the standard retirement age because they like their job, financial reasons, etc.

      1. Kiwiii*

        Where do you see yourself in 5 years is always a good way to gauge whether they see this role as a stepping stone or somewhere to stay (and if that aligns with what the role is meant to be — sometimes you’re looking for the stepping stone people, though it sounds like moql definitely isn’t)

    4. Policy Wonk*

      With the caveat that I don’t know your industry, in my experience you are more likely to get an older candidate to commit to five years than a younger one. Those newer to the workforce are eager to try new things and may only stay at a job for a couple of years before hopping to the next one – or going back to school – until they find what they really want to do.

    5. Nom de Plume*

      If you want people to commit to staying at least 5 years, offer them a 5-year contract.

    6. CheeryO*

      Sounds a lot like my department. We pay people like crap for the first year and then give a big automatic raise, with another big automatic-ish raise after 5-ish years (typically aligned with a professional certification). Not sure it’s the best strategy, but we generally have good luck attracting entry-level folks who turn into long-haul types.

  101. Gay Hamster in the Corporate Wheel*

    Hi all – New year, but how do I get a new attitude?

    It has been a rough couple years – loss of a sibling in 2016, caring for a parent with dementia, laid off in 2017 from a job I actually liked. I immediately landed a better paid job with the parent company but under a bad manager. I grew to hate my role and dread coming to work. But I had few work responsibilities compared to my old job, and no longer on call 24/7 , so stayed to deal with the family stuff.

    Parent died this summer, Bad manager left the same week. Great Manager came in! My time from Old Job just got grandfathered, which counts toward retirement! I’m being paid the most ever to do the least work ever! Great manager is promoting me to VP!
    ANNNDDD… I still hate this job. I procrastinate, I don’t prep like I should, I waste time on here. It’s not the job, it’s my attitude. How do I turn this around and enjoy the relaxed pace, the trust my new manager is putting in me, the fact that I’m not managing through crisis after crisis and on calls from 6 am to midnight?

    1. ThatGirl*

      If you have personal stress/trauma/grief to work through — which would be completely understandable!! — might I suggest a few sessions with a counselor? You probably got so used to all that stress that you don’t quite know what to do with yourself.

      Primarily my suggestion is to take care of yourself — you can’t force yourself into a new attitude, but you can do things that will steer you in that direction. Exercise regularly, make sure you’re getting enough sleep, try meditation or yoga or self-help books or a new hobby.

      And maybe try a few time-management techniques at work? Pomodoro helps a lot of people? Make to-do lists just so you can cross things off; check in with your new manager about projects and goals as needed, try to engage your brain a little more.

      Good luck :)

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Piggybacking on ThatGirl, if you haven’t taken substantial time off recently, may I suggest a vacation? At least 2 weeks if you can swing it. Totally disengage, take a breather, and try to come back refreshed. It’s possible that your attitude will follow you if you tried to find a new role, as it sounds like it may be burnout of both the professional and personal variety. I’d try to implement some better task management/time management processes too, but ultimately, I think you need a break.

      1. Gay Hamster in the Corporate Wheel*

        Thanks to both of you! You are right that a lot of this is stress/trauma/grief that I simply haven’t dealt with, cause I had “real” things to deal with. Have literally been in crisis response mode for 4 years.
        Luckily I work at headquarters for a huge corporation (lots of room for advancement, hence i don’t want to leave) and we have a really good EAP, so I’ll give them a call. And take some time off, as most of it was used taking care of parent…

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, you need to take a few weeks for yourself now – you are mentally and emotionally spent. Congratulations on your promotion, though!

        2. StellaBella*

          I’d second the self-care notes here, too, and use t eh EAP, get some counselling, and if you can take a real vacation before becoming the VP – like 2 weeks in a favourite place, digitally detox, massages, sleep. You have been in crisis mode as you say for 4 years. That affects your mental and physical health. After the 2 week vacation, schedule more therapy for the next few months, grieve when you need to, and also get a full health check-up yourself, once you are a bit recovered. Then go enjoy being a new VP and focus on your life, career, and such. Good luck!

  102. Anax*

    I have several projects right now, all of which are waiting on other people – but they’re also high-priority, and I’ll need to drop everything and work on them as soon as they’re passed back to me.

    That sense of being “on call” is making it hard to focus on the lower-priority-but-still-important projects in my queue.

    (Likely related, I’m autistic and have kind of a hard time with task-switching, especially when I can’t plan out what my day will look like in the morning. Unexpected tasks throw me off.)

    Any advice on focusing under the circumstances?

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      I don’t know if this will be helpful for you, but I block time off on my calendar to handle various tasks. If I know I have high-priority issues pending I block off a good chunk in case I hear back. If not, I work on a lower-priority item I had on my calendar for the next day/later in the day. Helps me feel organized and more in control. Also, I follow up more frequently on high priority issues- maybe after 2-3 full days instead of 5-6 work days for a lower priority project.

    2. Enough*

      You say you have to drop everything for the higher priority items. I suspect that they can wait 10 minutes, an hour, and maybe 2? Before switching get to a reasonable stop on the other work. Some point that is a ‘natural’ stopping point. Like the end of a spreadsheet or just the end of a column, the end of a chapter of a report. Any point that allows you to come back to it without having to review what you were doing. This allows you to ‘finish’ what you were doing, disengage from it and focus on the work item.
      And to build on Rain you could schedule a time to check on higher priority. Like every 2 hours so you have already prepped yourself to stop one task to start another.
      Having to switch tasks midstream is not easy on anyone.

  103. Zona the Great*

    Etiquette Advice Needed:

    TL/DR: Can I tell a person in my division to stop coming by my office and stopping me in the hall for small talk?

    I work in a division of a state government agency in a small unit that does not do any work with the unit in which this person (Ted) works. Ted started about a year ago. He’s nice enough. Came from another division of same agency. He’s in his late 50s or early 60s, I’d say. I’m very kind and welcoming so when he started, I was happy to say hello and ask about his recent work-related past. I figured this was the most I’d ever interact with him. WRONG.

    He started by stopping at my office door several times a day to make small talk that was uninteresting even for small-talk standards. Interactions with him have escalated to the point where I cannot pass him in the hall without being stopped for inane small-talk even if I saw him minutes ago—he’ll find some reason to keep interacting and it is always contrived. I began not offering my usual warm-smile-greeting to keep interactions short. That has actually made my life harder as he sees that as an invitation to try harder, I guess.

    I keep my door half-closed just to keep him away. He ignores it and comes in anyway saying, “is this to keep people out?” I look away from him and continue doing my work and he’ll stand and watch me. I offer half-smiles/half-grimaces each time he comes by. I barely answer his questions and give the tone of, “why are you asking me?” He seems to see that as a challenge or something.

    If I’m heating up my lunch, he comes in and bugs me using the most forced opening to conversation that he can muster (think declaring to no one in particular, “I wonder who brought in cookies?!” and waiting for someone, anyone, to acknowledge him). Whenever I don’t give him the “in” he’s looking for, he follows me around asking why I’m stressed/busy/angry/sad. He recently brought me an envelope that he mis-fed into the printer and thus printed it backwards as a way to “brighten my day”.

    He has begun saying things like, “you don’t like me much, do you?” whenever he gets a chance. If I walk by when he’s deep in a conversation with someone else (he does this to everyone), he’ll say with a very pointed tone, “HI ZONA!” and then sort of giggle when I breeze by as if there is a known joke. I honestly just want him and him alone to stop speaking to me. I am not too busy, I’m not concentrating, I’m happy to stop and talk to ANYONE else— I simply want to tell him to leave me alone.

    Can I just say, “Ted, please stop coming by my desk and stopping me in the hall for conversation”? I don’t want to play the excuse game with him because he’ll trample them all.

    1. CM*

      I think you need to change tactics. I’d go back to being friendly and saying hello. But then cut off any conversation once it starts. If you smile and say “Hi, Ted, how are you?” and then once he starts talking say, “I need to get to work, see you later!” he can’t accuse you of being angry or not liking him. You can also respond to “you don’t like me much, do you?” with “Oh no, it’s not about that, I just like to stay focused on work in the office.”

      This worked with my Ted! I also do give in and have longer conversations with him no more than once a month to avoid having to deal with the “you don’t like me” talk, but I’ve noticed that he’s found other people to follow around and so now it’s even less often than that.

      1. CM*

        Also, when he stops by, you can say, “Hi Ted, I’m in the middle of something / can’t talk right now / trying to get this email out. Did you need something urgent?” If he keeps talking say, “Sorry, need to get back to work,” and tune him out. If he still keeps talking say, “I’m sorry, Ted, but I need to ask you to leave because I’m in the middle of something.”

        The point is to cut off his anxiety that you don’t like him, you’re mad, etc. and get him to think that you’re just not very warm and chatty — not directed at him specifically — and are very busy.

      2. Rey*

        I second this, and would add that if you go back to being friendly but he still says “You don’t like me much, do you?” I would reply with “What a strange thing to say!” in a genuinely confused tone to shut down this line of thinking. It sounds like you don’t actually have to like him to be good at your job, but it sounds so uncomfortable to me that I can’t imagine how you’ve endured this for this long. Blech!

    2. fposte*

      Oof, Ted. This is going waaaay farther than it should, especially for somebody with that level of experience.

      So he’s ignoring your soft signals because he doesn’t like the message. I do think that you can and should ask him not to stop by your desk, but you have to be ready for him to be passive-aggressive about it. You’re right not to want to get sucked into the excuse game but also don’t get sucked into the reasons game–you don’t have to have a reason to want to do your work at work, and he doesn’t have to accept it. I’d do it the next time he comes by the office: “Ted, please don’t stop by my office like this; the interruptions are a problem.” If he goes for “But it’s only a small interruption” or “You just talked to Griselda” or “Kittens are adorable!” don’t get distracted: “Ted, I’ve asked you not to. Please respect that.”

      For stopping you in the hall, that depends what you mean. If it’s “Hey, Zona, [thing]” when you’re passing, you can say “Huh, [thing]” and keep walking–you don’t have to stop just because he wants you to stop. If he’s dogging you alongside and asking you questions about whether you like him or not (and holy crap), you can say “Ted, you’re a fine colleague, but this is a weird and unprofessional line of discussion. Please stop it.” I think there’s value in the naming of the problem here–that what he’s looking for isn’t work appropriate. The Teds of this world may respond by denying that there was anything sexual, but that’s not the point and you don’t need to get sucked into it. Just stick to “I’m asking you to stop it.”

      I’d also be ready for an HR discussion depending on his response, like, if he has a fit at being told to back off I’d communicate that to HR right after the discussion. This seems more ingrained than casual overstepping usually is. Unfortunately, that may mean there’s some “That’s how Ted is” culture floating around, but your employer really shouldn’t want a significant amount of your job to be pushing Ted out of the way so you can do it.

      1. valentine*

        keep walking–you don’t have to stop just because he wants you to stop.
        Yes, I think the George Clooney continuous motion technique will work for you.

        If he’s the kind of creep who thinks the young barista’s chatting to instead of with him, he may have taken your intro as interest. (Was it just one exchange?)

        Whatever his deal is, you’re giving a colleague the silent treatment, so, if he knows you’re not mad at him, he’s happily playing on the optics. You can tell him a passing hello is okay, but not to visit you anymore, and say hello, but keep moving. I wouldn’t even go with “How’s it going?” (while still moving, always moving!), just a clear acknowledgement of his existence no one call call frosty or the like.

    3. Amber Rose*

      My first instinct was no, but then I thought about it some more and I think you should say exactly that. Dude’s a creep.

      He’s going to push back and ask why though, I almost guarantee it, so maybe say it to him as you head off somewhere else so he doesn’t have time to respond and grill you on it.

    4. Colette*

      I think you’re giving him signals that you don’t want to talk, but you haven’t set boundaries. And I think the boundaries will help you be less annoyed with him.

      So when he stops by, say “sorry, I’m cutting down the amount of chatting I do throughout the day” or “sorry, I can’t talk now” or “I’m busy, did you need something urgent?” – or another statement that makes it clear that you do not want to talk.

      If he says “is this to keep people out” while opening your door, say yes!

      If he follows you around, try “I don’t have time to talk now” or “If you need something, please send me an email.

      If you’re OK with occasional chats, make small talk with him while your lunch heats and then cut the conversation short when it’s done. Smile and say hi in the hallway and keep walking.

      If he starts trampling boundaries you’ve set, you will need to take further action, but at this point it sounds like you’re just hoping he will go away without setting any boundaries.

    5. Close Bracket*

      He ignores it and comes in anyway saying, “is this to keep people out?” I look away from him and continue doing my work and he’ll stand and watch me.

      Use your words. It’s ok to say, “actually, I am rather busy and can’t stop to chat right now.” You don’t need an explanation. All you need is, “I can’t talk right now.” Throwing in a “Thanks for understanding” is manipulative as f*** but works wonders with getting people to accept a boundary.

      2. tangerineRose*

        Yep. I think he knows he’s stepping over boundaries, but once you start telling him that you need to work (and feel free to say “I can’t get work done with you standing there staring at me” if you have to), it’s going to be tough for him to keep doing it.

    6. Not A Manager*

      “He has begun saying things like, ‘you don’t like me much, do you?’ whenever he gets a chance.”

      THIS IS YOUR CHANCE. I think you need to be straightforward and direct with him. No more grimaces and half-smiles and cold shoulders. The next time he gives you an opportunity, I think you should say, “Ted, I like you fine. But I just can’t do a lot of small-talk and chit-chat. Even if it looks like I’m not working, I still need to be in ‘work mode’ and it’s distracting for me to get into side conversations.”

      If you want to soften it a bit, you could even add, “I realized recently that I was acting in ways that might make you think I don’t care for you. I think I was trying to signal that I’m not available for these conversations, but of course it’s much better to say something directly and then I won’t act in ways that make it seem like I don’t like you! I’m so glad that we had an opportunity to discuss this, and now you won’t misunderstand when I can’t stop to chat with you.”

  104. Anon For This*

    Here’s a link for a job (Chief Humanities Officer at the Minnesota Humanities Center): https://mnhum.org/about/employment/chief-humanities-officer/

    I’d like your input on whether a person with the following qualifications is a reasonable candidate for the job. A few friends and colleagues and I have been discussing this role, and who we know who could be a good fit, and I’m interested in how or whether our perspectives are being affected by our genders (the whole “men apply if they are somewhat qualified, women don’t apply unless they are perfectly qualified” thing).

    The candidate in question:

    – 15+ years of experience in the nonprofit sector, in a variety of organizations and roles, with an upward trajectory. Executive leadership at smaller organizations, programmatic leadership at larger organizations. The hiring organization is mid-sized.
    – Master’s degree in a relevant field, but not in the humanities (as requested in the list of qualifications).
    – Experienced in managing small teams (1 or 2 people); no experience managing a larger team or managing managers.
    – Experience managing small budgets (up to $300k).
    – No direct experience in “the humanities” (to be frank I’m not actually sure what that would mean in the context of professional experience). The candidate’s focus has been in the fields of civic engagement and leadership development.
    – Highly culturally competent, with a background in developing and leading diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives.

    What are your reactions?

    2. fposte*

      I didn’t read all the details, but I’d definitely apply with that pedigree. How they’d do will depend on the pool and the commitment to some of the quals, but I wouldn’t self-select out.

    3. Reba*

      I would encourage the person to apply! I might expect that they would need to make a clear statement about why they care about the humanities, whereas someone who had previously worked in the field* that would somewhat go without saying.

      *arts organizations, non-profits or grantmakers that support artistic and cultural activities, literacy and education, higher ed esp. if liberal arts, historical societies, museums…

      The MN org seems to have a strong community-building, social justice ethos so your hypothetical candidate could be stronger there than someone who came from, idk, the medieval theater world.

    4. Llama Wrangler*

      This is what I hone in on as the key qualifications:
      -Has advanced degree in humanities and/or education
      -Minimum of 10 years in senior leadership positions, including staff supervision and oversight
      -Has led large significant programs and projects to success

      There’s nothing that you said about the candidate that makes me think they wouldn’t meet (or close enough) those requirements.

    5. I'm in MN*

      Yes, apply.
      off topic

      I meet most of the required qualifications. I have no interest in leaving my present position. But this part of the job description took me aback.

      “The physical demands described here are representative of those that must be met by an employee to successfully perform the essential functions of the job.

      While performing the duties of this job, the employee is regularly required to talk and hear. The employee is frequently required to stand; walk; use hands to finger, handle or feel; and reach with hands and arms. This is largely a sedentary role: however, some filing is required. This would require the ability to lift files, open filing cabinets and bend or stand as necessary.”

      So this part of the job description is disheartening for a job that requires/values cultural competency and diversity.
      I am qualified for this position except: I do not do not stand and walk consistently. I have limited use of one hand. I cannot lift over 5 pounds. This is an executive position. What if the successful applicant experienced a life event that caused disability?
      Is this institution saying they would deny employment to the hard of hearing?

      1. fposte*

        Interestingly, when I Googled this paragraph I got a lot of jobs, so it looks like this is pretty much boilerplate. I suspect the underlying legal point is to identify areas in advance where a reasonable accommodation might be needed to fulfill the duties of the job, and where if there’s no reasonable accommodation that that would indeed be an obstacle. (We have job postings where we include the ability to lift 20 pounds or more, even, and I don’t know if we could accommodate somebody who couldn’t do that.)

        But the fact that it’s boilerplate is weird to me; I’m not sure what’s being achieved here that’s good, and it does seem pretty darned offputting if you don’t know it’s boilerplate. I’m thinking they’re going for “This is a legal statement that these would need to be negotiated to be successful” but I’m with you that it comes close to sounding like “Don’t bother applying.”

  105. Performance Eval Nerves*

    Performance reviews are coming up next week, and I am terrified. I’ve been on the job six months but I genuinely have no idea how I’m doing. While my bosses haven’t provided me any feedback yet, I’m afraid they’re the type to dump it all on you during the performance evaluation. I personally think I could be doing a lot better – I don’t think I’m nearly as helpful as they’d hoped – and because of this, not only am I afraid of a negative performance evaluation, but I’m afraid of crying in front of my bosses during said evaluation. Any advice??

    1. CM*

      Could you try practicing? With a trusted friend, or even by yourself in the mirror? Prepare yourself for the worst, role-play what you would say, and you might feel more fortified for this meeting. Hopefully it will be much better than you expect!

      You could also ask around and try to find out from others how performance evaluations typically go, so you have a better idea of what to expect.

    2. Pennalynn Lott*

      Assuming that the information in the review is legit, can you just see it as your bosses *finally* giving you a to-do list of things to improve? Maybe be prepared to say something like, “Thank you. I’ve felt like there’s a mismatch between what I’m doing and what you’d like for me to be doing, and this feedback is really helpful. I’d love it if we could do this more often so I always know I’m on the right track; would once a month be feasible?”

  106. Brownie*

    Oh, I am seething this week. My boss decided that informing him of a mistake he made should only be done in private so no one else in our room can hear that he’s done something wrong, but he thinks nothing of calling me out via public team-wide email for not doing something I can’t do without his input. I am fueled by spite and rage right now, especially since he spends on average 2-3 hours per day socializing with his work buddies and is therefore unavailable to do his actual job. There’s so many problems affecting my team right now that could be solved if he only cut back his deliberate socializing to an hour per day! When the grandbosses get back in a week I need to find time to ask them how best to handle this situation, but until then I’ll bottle up this seethe like a fine wine and hoard it.

  107. Raise Please*

    Hey guys, need some advice on asking for a raise – specifically timing.

    My boss (office manager) is about to return from a 5 month maternity leave, during which I covered most of her workload and all of the day to day operations at our office. This is the second maternity leave that I’ve covered for the office manager in about a 2 year span – both went very well.

    I want to ask for a raise while my accomplishments are fresh, however I just got my annual merit raise in October. So I’m also worried that asking now will not be a good idea since my raise was so recent. Thoughts on how to handle?

    1. Veronica Mars*

      I’d try to put at least 6 months between merit raise and request. But do yourself a favor and document justification now so you can refer to it later. I actually have a “brags” word document that I dump any positive feedback, successful project completions, etc. Its great reference for my resume, raise negotiations, and even just to look back and see how far I’ve come.

      Also, maybe the discussion isn’t one about a raise, but more one about moving into a position of higher responsibility. If you’ve shown you’re ready for your boss’ job, you should be going after your boss’ job. Not trying to get paid your boss’ salary at her direct report’s responsibility level.

      1. Raise Please*

        Thanks for the input, I’m definitely going to try to document everything now.

        I agree about going for my boss’s job, that’s the goal but she’s not going anywhere anytime soon. I already moved from an assistant to a supervisor position so at this point I can just continue to ask for more and more responsibility, specifically with things that will give me more experience in staff management (the only part of her job I didn’t really cover). We have a great working relationship and I enjoy my job so not looking to leave my company.

    2. Temporarily Anon*

      Depending on your industry/company/precedent, they may balk at giving you a permanent raise that was tied to only temporary accomplishments. Yes, it was obviously great that you kept things moving during your boss’s leaves, but they may not want to increase your base salary because of it. You could see if they’d be open to a bonus though? I covered for my boss while they were out for over a month and got a bonus for doing so, which was great. It’s going to feel awkward to bring up, but you could put it in the standpoint of the debrief with your boss on how everything went while they were out. “Here’s the status of what I took care of and anything that’s still open and needs your attention. I was so pleased that you trusted me again to take care of things while you were out! I hope you would agree that I was able to keep everything moving, and saved us from either stalled projects or needing to hire a temporary replacement. I was wondering if the company would be open to a bonus as recognition for how well I handled this?”

      2. WellRed*

        I also got a bonus when I covered my boss’s maternity leave. I negotiated for it while she was still on leave. The experience will go on my resume.

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is what I was going to say.

        This is a bonus situation, not a raise situation. Since it’s a temporary placement, which warrants praise and a one time chunk of change more than a permanent pay increase when you go back to your regular duties.

        And I see there’s no upward movement for you there, which stinks but use this as one of your accomplishments on your resume. If you do branch out one day to another place, this is the kind of stuff you can use to get yourself into a new position that’s a promotion.

  108. iantrovert (they/them)*

    We have a guy who is an absolute micromanager. Was supposedly great at what he did before being promoted from the top level of his direct-work job to management. He’s been with the company a long time and I would guess is close to retirement.

    I worked under a truly exceptional manager who moved to a different, non-managerial role, and then our team was transferred under Mr. Micromanagement a couple of years ago. I started looking for other jobs both internal and external, and of my teammates, all but one person on the not-small team moved into different roles not under his management. The one person who didn’t is very good at both her actual role and at managing up.

    We’re about to lose another great employee thanks to Mr. Micromanagement’s behavior, and I’m genuinely frustrated that he’s driving competent employees and good people away from what is an otherwise great role that supports my new role. Is it even worth trying to talk to someone above him about what people have told me and about my experience? I don’t want this to come across as some kind of personal vendetta against the guy. He’s nice. He is just the second-worst manager I’ve ever had (the worst one actually broke employment law) and his incompetence makes my job harder.

    1. fposte*

      That’s a big maybe. Do you have a good relationship with your grandboss? Then I think you could meet with them to say “I’m concerned about team satisfaction under Mr. M.–he’s a nice guy but the micromanagement is driving people away. Is there anything that can be done to coach him?” Alternatively, could you talk to your excellent former manager to see if they have any higher-level insight about the situation and how it might be handled?

      1. iantrovert (they/them)*

        Unfortunately he’s no longer my manager, but the manager of others with whom I work closely. My manager was…not helpful. I will see if my former manager has any suggestions, thank you. I’m just hoping Mr. Micromanagement isn’t being kept on until he retires, because he’s seriously hurting the morale of the line workers.

  109. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    I just started my new job, working as a corporate event planner (for one specific organization, not at an agency or other role).

    My first big event is our biannual service anniversary/retirement dinner. The next one is coming up pretty quickly, so I’m just doing everything like my predecessor did, then evaluating afterwards, but I’m brainstorming ahead for the future, when I start making my own changes.

    Currently, the event is pretty basic. Apps and mingling, then a plated dinner, CEO speaks, each retiree gets a blurb spoken about them when they come up to get a gift, service anniversary recipients get a framed certificate, everyone’s thanked, etc. and goes home.

    For those who have attended these types of events, have there been any ways you were recognized that made you feel particularly special, or that stood out as unique or engaging at these events? (As a side note, the retiree gift is a small item that is a bonus for attending the event. Managers select an item for their employee upon reaching an anniversary or retirement, in a process I’m not a part of or really familiar with.)

    I mean, obviously, I can’t reinvent the wheel here, and I recognize that it’s a boring event for those who attend each one (our leadership, some managers) but something attendees only attend every five years at MOST, so I’m not going to go crazy, but any creative ideas would be appreciated! Sorry for my lengthy post.

    TL;DR I need ideas to pep up my company’s employee retirement/service anniversary banquet.

    1. TCO*

      One thing I’ve noticed about recognition events is that sometimes different managers/leaders give very different remarks. Some are more thoughtful and specific than others, and if I were the recipient I’d feel a lot more appreciated knowing that my manager put that kind of care into their remarks. If you have any ability to influence how those blurbs are developed, do that. You could suggest prompts for the writers, like “ask the recipient’s coworkers to name this person’s best contribution” or “name specific qualities that have made a difference to the team.”

      If the blurbs/speeches are nice, you could make sure each recipient receives them in written form afterward so they can revisit them.

      You could also have professional photography at the event, with a focus on getting nice photos of recipients and their managers, recipients with the CEO, recipients with their families/guests, etc. and making sure that recipients have full access to the photos.

      1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        Thank you! We have a form for managers to fill out, which has some good sections to cull interesting data from (like “please share a favorite memory, etc. either from you, an employee or patient”), but it’s currently lacking a bit. I like these suggestions!

        The idea of written blurbs – I believe they’re listed in the program, but I’ll check and possibly add them. I’m thinking of also trying to add them in to the post-event intranet article as an attachment as well, since many retirees are long-time employees and others might want to read them.

        We have our company photographer attend and take photos, which we email to recipients afterwards, thankfully!

    2. anon for now*

      Frankly, I think what’s happening–in terms of the anniversaries–sounds just fine to me. In my office, anniversaries are observed with group breakfasts and everyone seems to be happy with this low-key option. There’s food, and mingling time, and the big boss hands out the awards, and then we go back to work.

      1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        Thanks! This is the other side of the coin, that just because I’m new and excited to make my mark, some things aren’t broken!

        A breakfast is a nice idea – we are a hospital system so timing can be tough, but I will file this away if our budget shrinks and we need to do something more low-key.

        1. anon for now*

          If you want to make a mark, maybe look at the food options offered at the dinner. It’s nice when vegetarians have options that go beyond “here’s a salad and the same three carrots that are being served with the chicken” or “have a bowl of plain pasta because it’s easy and cheap.” Some of the people might have allergies, celiac, or other dietary concerns (like keeping kosher or eating halal), and it’s always nice when an organization takes that into account.

  110. Only Men allowed*

    My company has had really nice company/team shirts & jackets made, and was handing them out yesterday….. however only men’s sizes were made. I don’t care about “feminine” styles, but I have hips and a waist and there is no chance that any of the mens sizes fit my body even though I am smaller than most men (ie if I take the size that fits my hips, I’m drowning in the rest).

    I took a size Small shirt, as I am an experienced sewer and I think I can alter it to fit (re-do sleeves/shoulders, take in waist), but I had to turn down the jacket, which was the nicer of the two garments. The garments are just a perk & not needed for any kind of event (ie they are not a uniform)

    Our department is less than 5% women. This really reminds me how much of an outsider I am here…..is this something I should let go & move on? Or should I speak up?

    1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      When I ordered company apparel, there was no price difference between most of the men’s/women’s cuts of the same item (most vendors make complimentary styles for obvious reasons).

      I’d ask if you can have a women’s version made, either now or in the future – unless they use a weird vendor, or very obscure brand, it shouldn’t cost them anything!

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I worked somewhere where we usually ordered unisex staff shirts, and occasionally you’d have the opportunity to get a women’s sized shirt. My experience with the women’s sized clothing was that they were often cut odd (too short and wide, or too tight across the bust/shoulders,) sized irregularly (perhaps you consistently wore a medium in regular clothing, but you’d need an XL staff shirt,) and they shrunk like CRAZY in the wash.

      I’d rather just have a men’s size with a predictable-but-slightly-off fit.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        +1

        I am not a busty/hippy woman. My shoulders are a little wider than my hips. The women’s shirts I’ve had seem to be cut to an hourglass shape, which isn’t a fit for me. NM that the men’s clothes fit consistently, they also fit me better in shirts. However, if the OP brings it, up, I would ask for a wider range of clothing options and sizes.

    4. Bear Shark*

      Speak up! I work in a male-dominated field and although Employer used to just order men’s cut apparel, almost all the orders I’ve seen recently we’ve ordered both men’s and women’s cut options unless it only comes in “unisex” t-shirt sizes.

      It’s not perfect, I wear women’s plus sizes and there have been apparel vendors who seem to think you can just translate women’s XXL+ into men’s sizes by subtracting an X so we get surprise men’s XL and 2X instead of the expected women’s 2X and 3X.

    5. CheeryO*

      Pleeeease say something! I hate this crap. I am a small woman and I look like a fool in all of my men’s small work jackets and shirts. I regret not speaking up when I was new and had it all purchased for me. We did another jacket order recently, and I fought for women’s sizes only to get shot down because “the good one” was only available in a men’s size. Gotta love it.

    6. Llellayena*

      Speak up. I’ve got something similar here, though they did order women’s sizes AND asked us what our size was. However, they did not provide the size chart for the company they were ordering from. Half the women in the office don’t fit their jackets because “medium” for this company is “extra large” in normal sizing (thanks hips). Ugh.

  111. Jennifleurs*

    Despite me explicitly saying “We’re going to disagree on this, let’s not talk about it,” my unbearable coworker still held forth with her bigoted, ignorantly homophobic opinion for several minutes.

    Oh, I wish she wasn’t the boss’ daughter.

    2. WellRed*

      Headphones? Physically leave the space? Make it more awkward? as in “I hope you don’t think I agree with you” or “What do you mean?”

    3. Zona the Great*

      I counter lots of things with, “What an irresponsible thing to say”. For some reason, it has stopped everyone I have tried it with in their tracks.

  112. Shelly*

    I’m pregnant and due in June, with 7 weeks of paid maternity leave, so I’ll be back end of July. The annual software update that I’m leading rolls out in September, and we’re writing the plan right now so that my leave is factored into our deadlines. HR has really stressed that I’m not supposed to do ANY work while on maternity leave, including answering emails or phone calls, which I’m totally on board with. However, some coworkers have already joked about being able to email me with issues. How should I respond so that there’s a firm boundary, but I don’t seem uncooperative?

    The other thing that makes me a little anxious about handling this correctly is that in my five years here, I’m the first employee in this office to be pregnant. Two of the directors are working moms (kids are 10+ now) and paid maternity leave wasn’t available at the time. At least one of them has already said something about how she took her laptop home, answered phone calls while she was at the hospital, and stayed home the minimum amount of time with their babies. I’m afraid that they may see paid maternity leave as an unnecessary privilege, or otherwise feel like I’m taking advantage or being coddled. But I don’t actually report to them, so maybe I don’t need to think about this at all…

    1. fposte*

      Are you going to be technically on FMLA? If so, that’s a great shield, because it’s illegal to require you to do any substantive work while you’re out (I suspect that’s what HR may be getting at). I wouldn’t worry about the people you don’t report to either way, but you can always use “HR says we’ll get in legal trouble if I do” as an out.

    2. BlueWolf*

      I haven’t personally dealt with this, but I think you should just correct them in the moment when they say things like that. Just let them know that actually you won’t be able to respond to emails while on leave and let them know who they can contact in your absence. Also, at my company most people have an out of office message explaining that they are on leave and listing the appropriate people to contact.

    3. Is it Friday yet?*

      I know in some companies that I have worked for, they actually shut off your email while you’re out on parental leave as a legal precaution. You might ask HR if you’ll even be able to access your work email at all.

  113. Cog in the Machine*

    So, while I am positive this topic has been brought up here before, I can’t find it. Does anyone have any advice for adding temporary duties (in addition to regular duties) to your resume?

        1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

          I would also ensure you include metrics and outcomes that you achieved especially if the task/project was outside of your normal area of responsibility.

          I also supported a coworker out on maternity leave; she was our Events Manager and I was a Coordinator supporting education programs and development (under which Events resided). So I would have helped the Events Manager but not anywhere to the extent that I did during this time. This is why I would list the metrics/outcomes but not in comparison to the previous year as I wouldn’t normally do this project.

          Managed logistics for an annual bowling fundraising event for Events Manager who was on maternity leave. Supported 10 corporate sponsors and 300 employees and family members in their peer to peer fundraising efforts of $19k through our online platform. Crafted weekly emails highlighting fundraising achievements, corporate challenges, and event day updates. Created event day schedule and script for department directors turned hosts. Coordinated distribution of $7k in donated gifts-in-kind as prizes through on-site games.

  114. Anony Siberian*

    I am teleworking at home with a very conversational Siberian 4 month old kitten. He has taken residence on one of the dining room chairs while I review some detailed reports. He is quiet for now, and tends to follow me around and stare me down from a higher pedestal (be it chair or upper stair). I started clicker training earlier this morning, and he comes when called because he knows a healthy snack awaits him. I like this telecommuting buddy of mine ;P

    1. Liesl and Fritz*

      My remote coworkers are (2) 5-year old dachshunds who are waiting for me to decide if I’m going to vacuum (and they’re going to hide), go for a walk (probably not yet, it’s still chilly out) or I’m resuming work. It’s 1121 CST and they’re rousing after a good morning nap. Pets can make the best coworkers!

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I was on a video call yesterday, and two of our colleagues were working from home. They put their dogs on the screen for a few minutes while our presenter was setting up. Briefly pretending our call was with dogs was the BEST.

    4. Fikly*

      I am catsitting, and during my video therapy the other day one of the cats decided he needed to stand on my chest and purr into my ear. My therapist was very amused. Emotional suppport cat!

    5. Bilateralrope*

      Working security, I often encountered cats who wanted attention from me because I was the only person nearby who was awake at that time of night.

      My current main site has a cat that just turned up demanding attention one day. One guard started feeding her and she lives on the property. Currently she is sleeping on the desk in the guard hut.

  115. Swift*

    Does anyone know of a good guide to writing a CV? My partner is planning to apply to PhD programs, and he wants me to look over his. However, I’m not in academia, and I don’t know what’s expected like I do for a resume. He’s looked at a few different guides, but they all give conflicting information.

    1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Do you know which programs he’s applying to/which PI’s he’s applying to work with? Most professors have theirs online, and he can mine them for formatting ideas.

      I’ve been proofreading my husband’s for years now, and whenever he’s had to make significant updates to his, he prints out a copy of his PI’s or colleague’s CV to show me the preferred terminology and formatting.

      1. Lady Jay*

        Seconding this. One thing your partner will probably do during the app process is look up the faculty/PI they want to work with at any particular school. Many of those faculty will have their CV available on the school website, and/or on their own professional website.

        When I went back for my PhD a few years ago, I picked a couple CVs that I liked the look of and modeled mine after theirs.

        1. Swift*

          Oh that’s a good idea, thank you both! He’s still figuring out the programs he wants to apply to, but there are a couple of front runners that he could look up.

  116. hollywooceleb*

    Hi all! Hopefully I’m not too late for this thread.

    Does anyone have advice for writing a proposal for a new role at your current company? One of my colleagues is moving to PT and another is leaving, which gives me room to advocate for a higher-level, more analytics-based role. I’ve previously discussed advancement in general with my boss, who thinks I’m capable and ready to do such work, but I’d love to have a pretty thought-out proposal to hand off.

    I’m currently approaching it as such: listing job duties, other changes that would need to happen to free up my time to take on analytical work, proposing a new salary, and offering up any cons I can foresee and how we might mitigate them. Any advice would be very appreciated!

    1. Dasein9*

      Sounds like you have a good handle on the details. I’d recommend making sure to write the proposal from the perspective of “how this benefits the company.” Sure, you can also mention what you get out of it, but overall, write with an eye to making it very easy for your boss and others to see the benefits of creating the new role and giving it to you.

      1. Ali G*

        Yes this. What will you be able to accomplish with this new set that you couldn’t with the same old one?

  117. Free Meercats*

    With the “This week no one even knows what day it is” memes going around, one of the guys who works for me called in half an hour after his start time and said, “When I woke up, I thought it was Saturday.” He’s here now, and if he hadn’t called in, I was getting ready to call him.

    1. TiffIf*

      On New Year’s Day (paid work holiday) I had to keep reminding myself that it was only Wednesday and I still had to go to work on Thursday.

    2. Enginear*

      I’m the opposite. I wake up on weekends panicking I’m late for work and then realize it’s the weekend.

    3. Enough*

      My daughter thought today was Saturday, too. She’s home for the holidays and with no classes or work one day just blends in with the next.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Yeah, it feels like my high schooler has been home f o r e v e r. He doesn’t know what day it is. I am ready for my college one to go back to school, too. Get out of here, take your laundry and your self-absorbed attitude with you! He’s a senior. . .

    4. Jdc*

      I had to check my phone about ten times yesterday to verify it was in fact Thursday. Brain just wouldn’t accept it. Hah

  118. Me*

    I am 10 years out from retiring my current position (I will be only 49). After a lot of soul searching for what I want to do next, I’ve decided I want to be involved in epidemiology in a public health capacity. I will need to pursue a masters for this. I’m trying to figure out timing.

    And here in is the dilemma. My employer will pay some towards my degree. But for every semester they pay, I owe them two years. I don’t really desire to work for them longer than the 10 I have left. My options are:

    1. Start my degree now and the time I owe them will be covered within the time I have left but this means not being able to use my degree for up to 5 years
    2. Start my degree where I can time it to finish close to my retirement in time for new job search which means paying for it all myself
    3. Other options i haven’t considered?

    Help?

    1. joe schmoe*

      This may not be relevant to your situation but I have a similar degree and wish I had understood funding options better before I took on loans:
      a) Some programs provide generous scholarship/grant support for incoming students. You may fall into a unique “non-traditional student” category which could help you in competing for these.
      b) Some research-oriented programs expect their students to effectively work for their advisers as researchers or teaching assistants while completing a thesis project and may provide tuition support as part of the admission offer.
      c) PhD programs often provide funding guarantees along the lines of mechanisms (a) or (b) here…and an epi PhD doesn’t always take the eons some wet bench biology PhDs do. Maybe this would be a good avenue to investigate.

      1. Me*

        Good info but not applicable for me. I’m not doing a PhD and am strictly doing online programs. There are some without thesis which I’m leaning towards.

        I wish I could just be a student, but real world obligations I’m mired in say not happening.

        Thanks for contributing!

    2. Zephy*

      Can you afford to pay for your master’s degree out of pocket? If that’s feasible for you, do that, and start sooner rather than later. There’s basically no funding available for master’s degrees – if you can’t pay out of pocket, better to let someone else foot the bill than to take out loans for it, though as you say most employers have some kind of tit-for-tat stipulation when it comes to tuition assistance. If you do use your employer’s tuition assistance, what’s the penalty for not sticking around after you complete your degree? Do you just have to pay them back? Could you afford to sock away money specifically for that during your program, basically treat it like a loan that doesn’t accrue interest?

      The only other alternative I can think of is to find a combination Master’s/PhD program – there usually is funding for doctoral programs, in the form of fellowships/TAships/etc. It’s not uncommon to start a program like that with that funding and just drop once you have the master’s, if you don’t want/need to go through with the doctorate. I don’t know how that looks from the other side of the table (like, will that get you a reputation you may not want), nor have I personally done it, but it was advice I was given when I was considering grad school in a past life.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      two years per semester?! I don’t want to doubt you, but that is the harshest TR clawback policy I’ve ever encountered, are you sure you read it correctly? My org’s is that, if you leave, you have to pay back any tuition reimbursement that was issued in the last two years, prorated based on how long ago it was (if it was a year ago, you pay half of it back, 6 months = 75%, etc). I wouldn’t bat an eyelash at two years after the degree completion, even. But two years per semester is just banana crackers.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        And it sounds like the company isn’t paying the whole tuition, just part. This sounds like a terrible deal for your specific situation (and one I can’t think of a situation it would benefit).

        If you can manage the degree while working and there are programs that work for your schedule, start it now with your own funding. That way you can leave when you’re ready. If you want to go to school full time, look for scholarship options or tuition waiver deals/paid university positions where you could work PT. This way is faster but potentially less financially stable.

      2. Me*

        It’s 100% 2 years per semester they pay for. And yes, it is only partial payment. It’s 75% up to 3000$ per year.

        And yeah, it is pretty craptacular. But at least it’s something. We’re government. County. So we’re subject to changing politicians who think things like I don’t want to pay for someone to get a degree and leave.

        I’m sure you’ll be shocked that we are currently facing a staffing crisis of an aging workforce and inability to attract young talent to replace retirees. Powers that be see that but are still walkign around wringing their hands just not knowing what the problem is. Meanwhile we’re all like – yo your pay and benefits are out of touch.

        Fun fact – it’s better than it was. It was 75% if you got a B or higher only and only for courses directly related to your current job.

    4. Marketing Manager*

      One thing to consider is that most companies will not pay for your degree if it’s not actually related to your current job or somehow ties into your company’s needs. Not sure if this is the case at your company, but definitely check in on it.

    5. Anono-me*

      What if you got the degree right away and then volunteered in public health epidemiology for the last few years of your career while still working for your current employer?

      Ten years is a long time. You don’t know what the world will bring to your door in the next ten years. What if your company ends the tuition funding program in a few years? What if the company changes the program to only cover relevant degrees.? What if your company gets acquired by a third-party and changes the claw back rules? What if you unexpectedly got laid off? I think you should take advantage of this tuituin funding opportunity while it is in front of you. Also what if the university changes how it offers its graduate-level classes? What happens if your family situation changes and you no longer have as much free time?

      Good luck.

      1. Me*

        I was thinking of exploring part-time in the degree field until retirement – I’ll look into volunteer opportunities too! I’m bet there’s non-profits that I could do that with.

        I’m government so I while I don’t know 100% what the future holds, it’s unlikely I will lose my job or the program will be ended. I’m also unmarried with an adult child, so family sitch is pretty stable as well.

        But your point of taking advantage while I can is valid. Thanks !

    6. Not A Manager*

      It bothers me when people state the facts of their situation, and then other people are like, “are you sure you know your own facts?”

      If the poster says it’s 2 years:1 semester, why not just believe them? It sounds to me like they might be in the military.

      1. Me*

        I had a flicker of annoyance, but I try to remember it comes from a good intent. I think people forget sometimes that readers are in a variety of very very different industries not to mention countries.

        Not military but government so you were very close.

        Education benefits aren’t great but they’re not the worst. Many people have nothing and the amount of leave and flexibility I have has benefited me in many ways. I have no business complaining about my circumstances that’s for sure.

    7. Chronic Overthinker*

      I would look into scholarships, grants and that kind of thing to help fund tuition costs. I actually received money from the P.E.O. sisterhood in the form of a grant as I went back to school in my 30’s. I have included a link. https://www.peointernational.org/projects

      The requirements are pretty easy but I would recommend getting in touch with a local chapter to get sponsored.

      Good luck!!

  119. Operation Glowing Symphony*

    Navigating the “Why did you leave your last job?”

    Reasons I quit:
    – Two new bosses in three months created a chaotic workplace
    – Loss of two staff in a month
    – Donor and fundraising risks not being mitigated
    – New job descriptions not close to what I was hired to do and required more hours than I couldn’t accommodate
    – Lack of trust, transparency, and lying by omission by leadership

    So is there a party line to this or an honest yet professional way to say ‘it wasn’t working out’. I will not be using the Ex. Director or Dev Director as references. My references will be the Program Director (since left), Program Manager (still there) and Events Manager (since left).

    1. Reba*

      Try to make it forward-looking, e.g. “looking for something new to challenge me” “looking for a more stable place to grow” “looking for a larger org” … not about where you’re escaping from but where you’re looking to go to. Good luck!

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        Thank you! Any sage advice for saying why I took a break/sabbatical (3-mos now) rather than going right back to work? I feel like, this being my 21st year in non-profit that I have some foundation to ‘taking a break to find myself’. I have gaps in work due to interstate household moves. The only buffer I have for this time off is the pro-bono work I’ve been doing with several non-profits.

        1. Ali G*

          You don’t need a concrete “reason.” Say something like “I was fortunate enough to be in a position where I could take some time off to really consider my next move. and that’s why I am really interested in this position…”

        2. Reba*

          What about, “I’ve been lucky enough to be able to take some time to reset and to volunteer my skills with a few orgs I really care about. Now I’m looking to get back into full time work.” Or similar?

    2. Kathlynn (Canada)*

      “there was sudden shift in how the company functions, which greatly changed my duties and hours I was expected to work. So I decided I’d look for a new job where…” using what Reba said or highlighting some of your strong skills. Or just do what Reba said.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        Brilliant as well. It may resolve the ‘Why doesn’t she have her ED or DD as references?’ It wasn’t a pretty breakup and I think the ED could be amenable as a reference but I’m not sure I want to ask. I know the DD is a no-go.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I posted about this a few months ago and got some good advice.

      Focus on what you want in the new role’s description. Drop all the negative stuff like chaotic workplace and loss of staff. I know it can be hard to do that, but on a call you don’t want to come off as complaining about your job and wanting out! Even if it is true.

      “I enjoy doing X and Y functions and I’d like to do more of that.”

      “My role has changed since I was hired to doing more of A and B aspects, but I really would like to find a role that focuses on doing more of X and Y.”

      “I’d like to move to a smaller (or larger) organization that does A and B.”

      Or basically find 1-2 things in their job description that you can point to being really interested in when you get the interview.

      “I see this role requires X and I’m really excited to do more of X than my current job allows.”

      “It appears you’re looking for something of a Teapot Generalist, which I enjoy much more than my current role as a Chocolate Teapot Specialist.”

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        Thank you, as well. I definitely want to keep it positive and forward-looking but hate feeling that being covert is required, not that they really care why because no one can change what happened. It’s a mid-sized city in which ED’s and DD’s could know one another and even if I don’t put my bosses on the reference list, they could still contact them an inquire more.

        1. Veronica Mars*

          I think its ok to state contextual facts unemotionally “theres been X turnover in Y months” if it makes you feel better, but its much more important to move on quickly to what you want to be different.
          When my real reason for leaving was ‘bosses are all psychopaths who don’t help’ I said “I want a manager who will mentor me and help me develop x skills.” It self-selected me out of a few jobs where managers were looking to be more hands-off, but that was ok, because I truly did need more coaching to become better, and I ended up with a boss who was passionate about that. Plus I think it read as “willing to receive feedback” when so often talking about boss problems flags you as a potentially difficult personality type.

          1. MissDisplaced*

            Exactly!
            Although I do think it can be ok to say (provided it is true) things like:
            “My company relocated and the commute was too long to be workable.”
            “I’m looking for an established company that is financially secure and growing.”

            I did once have to say:
            “I worked for a startup company and unfortunately they lost their funding and had to lay off the staff.” Believe me, there was SO much more craziness than that, but this is the line I went with.

  120. Traveller*

    Can you split the difference? ….. if the 2 year clock is separate for each semester, then start your program close to retirement and the early semesters will get paid for by them but you may need to pay for the final few on your own.
    If you end up deferring your retirement for any reason, you’d gain the benefit of more of the clock running out.

  121. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    For those of us in the US. I’d love to see an informal poll of paid family leave policies.

    I work for a Fortune 200 healthcare company. It offers FMLA (obviously) but no paid parental/family leave. I’m looking to get pregnant in the next year or two and considering looking for another job that does offer paid maternity leave. I’d love to know whether this is at all a realistic expectation though. I keep hearing anecdotally (and on this site) about people who have fantastic leave policies, but I’m wondering if that’s really becoming more common, or not.

    Relatedly–If I do seek a new job for this, how do you go about finding and applying to companies that DO offer paid leave? I feel like companies should advertise these things. If they don’t should I assume no paid leave is offered? It’s not worth it to me to even apply to jobs that don’t offer paid leave as this is sole reason I’m considering changing jobs.

    1. Me*

      County government in Maryland – somewhere in the middle (of the state) socioeconomically.

      We have separate pools of vacation and sick time. Everyone gets 15 days of sick leave a year. There is no limit to how much you can bank. Vacation is dependent on years of service. The max, where I am now, works out to just over 5 weeks a year. You can bank up to 240 hours (6 weeks).

      There is no “parental leave”. We are able to take up to 12 weeks under FMLA. A birth mother can use sick leave to cover her time off as long as she or the infant is under medical care. Non-birth mothers/fathers can use vacation time or leave no-pay.

      From what I know of my friends in private industry, I have hands down the most generous leave. Even without official parental leave. That said, they make way more money.

    2. Veronica Mars*

      It seems bananas to me that you have no paid family leave. In my former fortune-500 manufacturing company (Florida), and my current fortune-100 manufacturing company (Northeast), it was 12-15 weeks paid. And my coworkers came over from healthcare in the Northeast had similar benefits.

      My company does advertise it, and the last company you could find by googling news about them + maternity, since they got some publicity when they increased leave to 15 weeks. Its also a good thing to search for on Glassdoor/etc.
      I don’t know if you’ll ever be able to find exact details before applying, but certainly every HR professional ever should be able to tell you the policy during a phone interview.

      Part of me also wonders if this is something you could negotiate, either at your current company or for a future one? It seems like these days not having paid leave is a big ding against a company, and most are trying to upgrade.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        It seems bananas to me that you have no paid family leave.

        It’s just not that common. I’m in a mid-sized midwestern city that has some major companies headquartered here, yet none of them offer paid family leave – neither do most of the smaller company. The company I work for now only offers four weeks of paid parental leave to be used after sick leave/FMLA/disability is exhausted, but they’re headquartered in an entirely different eastern state from where I live and I think they only offer it because we have European headquarters where paid maternity leave is 6+ months.

    3. J.B.*

      Sometimes leave depends on region. In my experience the south does not tend toward good policies unless firms are based in some other region. California has some sort of paid leave, and if a firm is based in California maayyybe it would offer some elsewhere? Although if you can build up leave you can usually take it during FMLA period.

      I worked for state government in the south with zilch for family leave, although if you had been there long enough you likely had enough other paid leave to cover part or all.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        My company is based in California–but that almost makes it worse. I used to live in CA and recently went remote to move across the company for my partner’s school. Unfortunately the paid leave in CA is through the state, not through the company. So the company itself has possibly less incentive to provide paid leave, since all of the CA employees at least have some paid leave. (CA paid leave if i remember correctly is 60% of your salary for 6 weeks, so still not stellar).

        I’m currently the sole breadwinner, so we don’t have a lot of room in the budget to save up for unpaid leave, and our PTO policy is okay, but I never have enough for a solid chunk of time off.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Big McLargeHuge financial institution here. We offer 4 months paid parental leave for parents of any gender, and covering both births and adoptions. We also offer financial assistance for adoptions, though I’m not sure about the details on that.

      Anecdotally, I’ve seen several men in the company take the full 4 months parental leave, and it doesn’t seem to have impacted their careers once they return. Things like that are pretty exciting to me, even if I’m not planning personally to start a family anytime soon.

      Granted, being a Big McLargeHuge helps us to offer these kinds of policies. It’s pretty unimaginable for a single person beyond the very stratospheric upper echelons being so individually valuable that we can’t do without them for that long.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        The not-primary-caregiver leave is one of the best parts of the policy at my company. Its a very male-dominated field, so its probably the most used perk. They get 6 weeks or so paid, but it doesn’t have to be taken adjacent to the birth. Most people save 3 weeks or so and use it to do all the doctors appointments, sick days, or even a random week extra vacation. One father in my previous group used it to fly to his home country with baby once she was old enough.

        There’s actually quite a bit of pressure TO use it all up, as in people at the end of the year saying “oh shoot, I need to fit in my last week leave” or being gently nudged to do so by their managers with comments like “you’ll be glad you took it, they’re only cute and cuddly for a little while.”

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Oh wow, the encouragement to use it is really awesome. Thumbs up to your company culture!

    5. cheese please*

      I’m in a similar boat friend. Re: job seeking I’ve tried looking at parent (mainly mom) centered career websites like InHerSight, PowertoFly and The Mom Project. Most of them post openings outside of my expertise (darn) but do strive to be transparent about paid leave or flexible work schedules. Depending on where you are located and your lines of work within healthcare you may find something that works for you.

      But also, a healthcare company that doesn’t offer paid parental leave makes my blood boil. UGHHHH. I work in a smaller (< 300 people overall across all sites) manufacturing company that is very "old school". I would probably be there first person on my site to get pregnant. We offer supplemental disability insurance (ie: I have to opt in for it the year before we get pregnant) that covers 6 or 8 wks of leave with partial pay. Then I can use my PTO time (just 10 days a year) to supplements the rest of my FMLA time.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I’ll check out those sites.

        Yeah, we also have really crappy high-deductible health insurance. (Which, of course, also didn’t cover infertility treatments that I needed to even consider having a kid, so I’m already $30k out on this kid before actually trying to get pregnant–I really can’t afford to take unpaid leave on top of that!) It’s so frustrating to work for a healthcare company that has so little regard for the health and wellbeing of its own employees. Unfortunately my position is also very niche (I’m an anthropologist working on language and culture issues in healthcare) so positions in general are hard to come by.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          OMG, your job sounds awesome! Please come back during another open thread to talk about how you got into it.

    7. BlueWolf*

      Good-sized law firm with several U.S. and international offices, 6 weeks paid leave for primary caregiver (male or female) plus 6-8 weeks short term disability for recovery from birth if applicable, available after 6 months employment, in addition to regular PTO (22+ days per year depending on seniority). And that’s just for professional staff, lawyers get more.

    8. Nom de Plume*

      I work for a small (~75 people) boutique consulting firm. FMLA applies, and we can use our short-term disability (that we pay a small monthly premium for) for complications relating to pregnancy or to get some pay during maternity leave. It’s not awful, but not amazing either.

    9. Anon Here*

      I work at a mid-large sized company in the US and until a couple of years ago, we had zero paid parental leave. Any time we were asked for feedback, I always wrote the reasons we should have paid leave. They allowed questions to be submitted for company-wide meetings and I would always turn in a question about it there as well. About two years ago, I was asked specifically for more information on why I thought we should do it and I listed out the reasons it would benefit the company (not just the employees). I’m not saying that I had a big role in changing things, but after having heard about it from surely a lot of squeaky wheels like me, a year or so ago they instituted 12 weeks of paid leave for a primary parent (usually a mother) and 6 weeks of paid leave for a secondary parent (usually a father). The leave can be taken anytime in the first year after the birth or adoption of a child and doesn’t have to be used consecutively (e.g., the primary parent could take 8 weeks of leave to start with, then use one week per month for the next four months). I was honestly surprised at how good the policy was and despite any other problems here, it has been a big enough incentive to stay, as I’m planning a family in the near future.

      I agree that it’s pretty ridiculous for a Fortune 200 healthcare company to not offer any paid parental leave and I would recommend pointing that out (politely and with data to back you up) whenever you feel like there is an opportunity. As for new jobs, Glassdoor does often state it for larger companies and many large companies will also call out big benefits on the Career portion of their website. Otherwise, there may not be a way to screen for this before applying, but after you have a job offer, you could definitely ask to see their full employee benefit guide before accepting.

    10. TiffIf*

      Long established risk/data analytics software company 8,000+ employees in 10+ offices across the US:
      10 weeks paid leave for the primary caregiver
      5 weeks paid leave for the secondary caregiver

      We also have international offices but I don’t know if/how the policy differs for those locations.

      1. TiffIf*

        My department is something near 95% male, but we’ve had at least 4 men in 2019 who all took the full 5 week secondary caregiver leave.

    11. Fikly*

      There are lists online of companies that are family friendly/have good benefits for mothers, that type of thing. Given you are currently working for a fortune 200 healthcare company, possibly some companies you would be interested in would be on these lists?

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I’ve googled, but mostly it’s tech and finance companies on the lists I’ve seen. I have tried googling my company’s competitors “+ maternity leave” with mixed results. (But finding that for those I could find, many do offer at least 6 weeks paid!)

        1. Fikly*

          What about healthcare companies that overlap in tech? That’s an emerging market. Not healthcare devices so much as telemedicine.

  122. Kathlynn (Canada)*

    a coworker told me a potentially bad thing about another coworker who is not able to work atm (she’s bad at describing things, so I told her to ask the other coworker who was actually involved). I finally remembered while my boss was in my presence, so I was able to tell her about the whole thing, plus some background of a previous accusation of sexual harassment that wasn’t handled properly. and how he had started scratching his chest under his shirt, and lifting his shirt half way up at least by doing so. (I presented it without motive, as I don’t know what the motive was, but that it *did* make me uncomfortable, especially with the second possible case of harassment)
    I also told her that with all that’s happened before, if he is allowed to come back, then he should go to a different store for a fresh start. (not from the harassment claims, but from the negative opinion about him from everything else. And honestly, if he makes the effort to get mentally well enough to return to work, *not* having the negative memories will probably be helpful for him too)

    1. Lilysparrow*

      Of course, scratching under your shirt is uncouth and tacky and gross. But sexual harassment? How is that a thing?

      1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

        His shirt was getting lifted up very high for an extended period of time (like at least one minute). He could have been doing this, given it’s sudden start, to see if I’d say anything and if he had room to push further.

  123. Veronica Mars*

    Low stakes question – is it weird to use the term “love” when referring to colleagues?

    Sometimes I catch myself saying “Oh I love ___” when talking about a third party to other coworkers. Something about “I think ___ is great” or “I like ___” seems less effusive. Which, I mean, it is, and maybe that’s ok. But to me there are coworkers I “like” and ones I “love” and they’re different categories.

    I’m also a woman often referencing men in my male-dominated field if that matters.

    1. windsofwinter*

      I think it depends on your relationship with who you are talking to more than anything. I have told coworkers that I loved my former boss (who is still at the same company, but a different division). Would I tell that to the Big Boss? No, I don’t think so. But my casual mode of talking is very hyperbolic and so I don’t think anyone really thinks anything of it. Now if you’re saying it with moon-eyes or something, that would probably cause some looks.

    2. Colette*

      It’s mildly weird, IMO, unless you are referring to something instead of someone. “I love how fast the spouts department is at fixing tickets” is more acceptable than “I love Chris”.

    3. Anon Here*

      I would avoid using “love,” genders aside, because of all the ways it can be interpreted. Some people think of romantic love when they hear that word, or they’ll repeat what you said out of context and it will get misconstrued. I wouldn’t even say, “____ is great!” I would just make it about work when possible. “____ does great work,” or whatever applies. “____ is wonderful to work with. He’s so friendly and helpful. Always a good communicator.”

      1. Veronica Mars*

        I do agree that specifics are better, I guess I really struggle in particular with a past boss I have. I don’t really know a quick stand in for “This guy was kind, helpful, supportive, and also fun to talk to and I owe him a lot for my career and I’m sure if you go work with him you’ll feel the same.”

        1. CheeryO*

          I think it’s fine in that situation. I’m in a male-dominated field, too, and I tell everyone that I loved my former boss. Usually they say, “Me too!” (or “Wish I had met him!” if they started after he retired).

        2. Anon Here*

          Yeah, it’s subjective / know-your-audience. But could you just say, “John was a fantastic person to work for”, “John is an amazing accountant and I was lucky to get to work for him”? Something like that?

    4. Me*

      It’s a smidge weird but also very dependent on industry and even age group. It can also come across as very teenage girl which is unfair but as women are well aware, fairness rarely comes into play.
      “I love working with….”
      But also there’s a lot of other ways you can say the same thing. “I really enjoy how so and so handles…” “Bob is always willing to lend a hand”.

      Frankly calling out specific attributes is a better complement than a generic “love” or “like” anyway.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Heh, this happened to me yesterday. I was talking to a colleague about a former colleague and I said, “I LOVE that guy.” In my field, that doesn’t even ping a “weird” meter. I think it’s all in the audience.

    6. Parenthetically*

      Huh, I wouldn’t think anything of it 95% of the time, but I’m an enthusiastic person by nature.

      If it makes you feel strange, though, can you just skip the “I love _____” part and slide right into a specific compliment? “Yeah, Chris is crushing it with the llama census and it’s making my llama demographic reports so much easier, what a great coworker.”

  124. windsofwinter*

    I’ve seen lots of articles and think pieces in recent years about how much millennials value workplace flexibility and work/life balance. I’m dead in the middle of that generation and I’m starting to realize it’s something I do value quite a bit. My previous workplace was toxic as all get out, but I will say it was quite flexible. I could flex my hours to make room for appointments and such. I could come in on weekends or holidays. I could work from home, even though I was sick with the flu but still had to process payroll, so I guess that’s maybe the only reason it was allowed…I never thought to ask for that arrangement on a regular basis but I think it may have been possible.

    I really enjoy my current company and my coworkers and my boss, but the senior leadership is SO old-school. My colleague had to come in on New Years Day because her boss did not want to advocate for her to work from home. Her job is 95% done on a computer and the other 5% of tasks don’t happen on a daily basis. She did NOT need to be in the office to work. It’s just that senior management see WFH as a way to take advantage.

    It’s demoralizing to know that your leadership doesn’t trust you and would rather treat us all like schoolchildren.

    1. Ban the BCC*

      I’m on the edge of Millenial and X and having that flexibility led me to find another job. My job is 97% computer based and I have a company cell phone so it’s not like I’m not reachable. The old school, you must be here by 8 and stay until 4:30 routine just isnt it for me anymore.

      1. windsofwinter*

        Yes, it’s really not for me either. I certainly understand when it is necessary due to business needs, but I would love to move away from such a position.

        1. CheeryO*

          The other thing to think about is that you might not need flexibility as much as generous PTO. I have a butts-in-seats job, but I also have a ton of personal leave and sick leave that I can take in hour increments as long as I give my boss a heads-up. It feels very flexible, even though on paper, it isn’t at all. I do wish I could WFH, though.

    2. Fikly*

      I think this comes from the stigma around mental health lessening in general, and relatedly, newer research showing that having good mental health is important to having a healthy life, physically and mentally.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Is valuing a flexible schedule really a generational thing or is it a “people have lives outside of work and enjoy having the ability to arrange their lives regardless of generation” thing?

      Because it sounds like the latter to me. And I realize that employers didn’t always offer this; I just don’t agree that means older generations don’t value a flexible schedule.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is a load of bullshht. They did not forget to pay you, they did it on purpose.

      Literally there’s no way to think they paid you the week before, it’s a fixed frigging schedule.

      I’m a quick temper right now but have they ever done something like this before? This is something that the labor board will eat their faces for, you don’t get to skip a payroll and go “Ooops our baaaaaaaaaaad.” Are they paying you off schedule and getting you money to you on Monday? There’s no excuses.

      THERE IS LITERALLY NO REASON THIS EVER HAPPPENS. Don’t they pay themselves as well? Or is it a 3rd party? I’m seriously screaming and demanding answers that I don’t even know you have because I’m that enraged hearing this.

      I’ve been doing payroll for almost 20 frigging years. How many payrolls have I forgotten or even thought to forget? Zero. Have I mucked up someone’s hours, yeah I’ve done it. Fixed it immediately of course. But an entire effing payroll is impossible to forget. Period. They all need to be fired. Seriously. It’s a breech of trust with employees and it’s also unlawful.

    4. Bilateralrope*

      The only time my employer has ever missed payroll was when the office lost power. And by missed I mean that, instead of being done by 4pm when I work up, I wasn’t paid until 9pm that night.

  126. J.B.*

    I’ve been wondering if the degree I am currently pursuing was a mistake. I revamped my resume and actually got a response out of a black hole. Some potential here! And I have come to the conclusion that IT hiring is miserable, why do they all want IQ tests? Data science positions at health firms seem to have more openness to you actually showing you can do stuff.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      An IQ test? Never been given one of those for a job. Seems pointless. IQ rarely has much to do with how you will perform on a job. In fact, I’ve known some genius level people who were very disfunctional employees.

      I’d want to see what kind of examples someone has, or skills that can be put to use.

      1. J.B.*

        It seems to be a thing in university hiring of IT. (Don’t know if it was an “IQ test” per se but a lot of the questions showed patterns and you pick the next one.) I got one that seemed to be as much a would you stick it out and finish in time, and another that I have been avoiding. Will go in and try it, but these really don’t give me a positive feeling about their hiring of new grads.

        1. Anax*

          Honestly, that sounds more like a “weird hiring of new grads” thing than an IT thing.

          Some of the major IT companies hire new grads because they want smart, malleable people they can train into their own culture – which can be problematic, because some of them also have really toxic ideas about work/life balance and other culture problems, which more experienced adults would object to.

          Not sure what subspecialty you’re going for, but data science sounds like a good jumping-off point; SQL/database positions are common across the board, and big data/business intelligence is a lucrative niche if you can get your foot in the door.

  127. Can't Sit Still*

    The company rolled out a new system yesterday. They let us know, starting in mid-October, that the system was coming. They sent out multiple emails, put up posters, added it to the electronic bulletin board and announced it at every company meeting. It’s incredibly user-friendly and intuitive to use.

    So naturally, everyone is insisting this is the first they’ve heard of it and they keep trying to use the old system instead, which has already been deactivated. Then they complain to me that it’s not working, when I have nothing to do with it and cannot help them.

    I need more coffee.

    1. Nom de Plume*

      Ugh. I’m on the other side of this. I’m in charge of various new processes and initiatives, and it is very challenging to get the word out to everyone. I know that it’s up to me to keep at it (announcing at staff meetings, posting on our internal website, going to team meetings and announcing it, mentioning it again at staff meetings, sending email reminders), but inevitably someone will have a problem that once I track down the root cause is basically they didn’t pay attention and didn’t do something that is mandatory. Super frustrating, and I don’t think there will ever be a magic solution to this. I feel you.

    2. Dancing Otter*

      When a large food producing company was installing new modules of SAP, they used the reporting capabilities of the training provider to track compliance with required training. They also hired a consultant (me) just to turn that compliance data into multi-level reports, summarizing by individual supervisors, managers, all the way up to the CEO. There was another consultant just for communications. Between her weekly (daily for the last week) exhortations and my feet-to-the-fire reports, things went much better than the AP conversion.

      That would be the conversion where half the people didn’t do the training, and they ended up with a multi-billion (American billions, thousands of millions) dollar delinquent balance.
      A/P “HyperCare” had about twenty people working full-time for over six months just to clean up that mess. Bills weren’t being paid because people didn’t know how to approve them. Three years later, they were still finding purchase orders that had been “received” in the system (thus recorded as inventory/expense and liabilities) but paid by direct expense because somebody didn’t know how to do their d*** jobs. That’s THREE YEARS of inaccurate financial statements, both internal and SEC, because of duplicate recording of purchases. YEESH!

      Hope yours turns out better.

  128. Ban the BCC*

    Quitting while on a PIP?

    I received a PIP at my yearly performance review which led me to rethink my current company. I found a company that is a much better fit and im excited about, rather than just showing up and going through the motions. I want to give my notice but if I’m on a PIP, what are the odds they’ll just end my employment and pay me for my two weeks?

    1. Me*

      You say you found a company you are excited about, but you don’t say you have a job offer from them. Can you afford to not have another job lined up?

      Anyway, there’s no guarantee either way. They might have you leave and pay you or they might require you work the full two weeks.

      I’m interested in why you are asking?

      1. Ban the BCC*

        I do have a job, offer and background check all set, with a company that is a much better fit. I’m curious as to how being on a PIP impacts a notice period. Since performance is already lacking, my thinking is they’d want me out the door sooner rather than later.

    2. Close Bracket*

      what are the odds they’ll just end my employment and pay me for my two weeks?

      Would that be a good outcome or a bad outcome?

      Btw, you don’t say whether you have applied, interviewed, or gotten an offer with that new company. If you don’t have an offer in hand yet, do nothing until you do. Then resign and enjoy your two weeks paid vacation if you get it. :)

      1. Ban the BCC*

        I have already secured another job with the company I mentioned in my letter. I’m curious on how this would play out being on a PIP though.

        1. Close Bracket*

          I don’t think it will depend on the manager and the company. Sometimes companies show people who leave the door even when they are not on a PIP. Are you just curious, or will the answer affect when you give notice? This is just me, but I can think of nothing better than two weeks paid time off. I’d be hoping and praying that they boot me out before the notice period is over!

    3. J.B.*

      Do the PIP unless it is unbearable. Maybe you’ll resolve the issues, maybe not. And aggressively job hunt.

    4. Enough*

      Just give them the usual 2 weeks. Worse case they ask you to leave earlier and you have a nice break or you can let the new company you can start earlier. Though I wouldn’t offer more than a week.

      2. Nom de Plume*

        Yep. I’d give the standard 2 weeks notice but be prepared for them to tell you that they would prefer to accept your resignation and not work out a notice period. Meaning they might tell you to leave right then. So I’d start taking your personal items home, or at least have a plan to grab stuff and put it in a box on a moment’s notice.

        I had to do that at a former job, and it sucked. I wasn’t on a PIP, but the workload for my office was low (I guess the boss’ boss thought it would be better for people who were sitting on overhead do the chargeable work I had been doing), so a few days after I gave my 2-week’s notice, my boss called me into his office to tell me that they were accepting my resignation “effective immediately”. I had to gather up 3 years’ worth of personal items, including a lamp, a foldable screen, books, etc. It sucked

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all, it’s incredibly normal for someone on a PIP to give notice and leave. This is actually a pretty common reaction to the PIP process, it’s demoralizing and often just a formal step in termination of an employee anyways.

      I would think about how they treat departing employees in general and go on that. If they’re usually decent when someone leaves and accept the notice period, then they probably won’t just dismiss you.

      Can you afford 2 weeks unpaid is the real clincher?

      Do you need this job as a reference in the future? Will this job be on your resume still? If no to those, then I’m also going to say ef it and don’t give any notice if you really would be in an ugly spot with 2 weeks no pay. You first, them second when it comes to your financial well being.

  129. Ocean*

    I work once or twice a week in a remote office because it is closer to my house. The office exists so we can tell clients we are “local”. People work here very sporadically and I can go weeks without seeing anyone else. The office was given a box of approximately 20 chocolates in December. How fast can I eat them? Is one chocolate a day okay? If there are still chocolates left on January 15th can I just eat all of them? I don’t want to eat them too fast in case the Client Rep shows up and wonders where all the chocolates went.

    1. windsofwinter*

      What a novel dilemma! I think one or two per day is fine…and if they are still there 2 weeks from now then definitely just eat them.

    2. Dasein9*

      Goodness, you have a lot of self-control. Those chocolates would not have lasted a week if it were me. Enjoy your chocolates!

    4. WellRed*

      I plan to toss anything of this nature by the end of next week. You’re fine to eat all the chocolates you want

    6. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Christmas finishes this Sunday (unless Orthodox). Hanukkah is already over. I can’t imagine the client rep would expect to see any left by the end of next week, let alone 15th!

      1. Antilles*

        Frankly, given that most companies send out holiday gifts like this to dozens of different places simultaneously, there’s a decent chance that the client rep won’t even think twice about the fact they’d sent you a box of chocolates period, much less evaluate in detail about whether or not there should still be any left.

        1. Ocean*

          Apparently it’s an annual “thing.” The 5 of us who occasionally use the office got a “The chocolates have arrived!” email complete with picture. And the card that came with them is addressed to the Client Rep (since it really is her office). The card remains unopened so I don’t think the Client Rep has been here since they arrived. I am going to go get more chocolate… one for each commentator

          2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            Oh, I get you – I thought you meant it was an external Client Rep where you are the client.

            Still. Count me as another commentator :-D

    7. Moth*

      Definitely should be gone by the end of next week at the latest. In fact, I would say that depending on when they arrived (mid-December versus late-December), you’re good to just finish them off today. Consider this a service to your coworkers. A month-old chocolate will still seem tempting, but is really just setting them up for stale disappointment. Save them that disappointment and finish the chocolates off now. But do throw away the box once they’re gone, so that you’re not rubbing it in their faces…

  130. A Bird*

    You know that advice about job interviews being an opportunity for not just the employer, but also the prospective employee, to see whether they like the job? I’ve finally experienced an interview that made the decision seem easy on my end. I arrived early at the office only for HR to ask me to reschedule via email, an hour before the start time. (The kicker: I was traveling an hour on public transportation to get there, on a holiday week.) They had rescheduled the phone interview several times, too. That seemed weird? The more I learned about the company, the more felt off. Shady tasks (with a quick aside for an explanation of why they weren’t actually shady—which is, itself, hilariously suspicious), vague job descriptions, working weekends, a pitiless company culture, and the kind of “give it all to your job” attitude that encourages skewed work/life balance. There was a sign up declaring speculative words like “hope” or ”think” to be words for “losers.” And meanwhile, they can’t keep to their own meeting times. I’m great at hitting deadlines, but not with hovering bosses, unclear instructions, or a work/life balance with emphasis on the former. Hopefully somebody can get a laugh out of it. I’ll chalk it up to a good interview experience that shows me what I don’t want. At the same time, I hate to turn down a potential opportunity when I need one. This isn’t a good fit, right?

    1. Ali G*

      They literally have posters that call people losers? On heck no! Run, or should I say fly away as fast as you can!

    3. Parenthetically*

      There was a sign up declaring speculative words like “hope” or ”think” to be words for “losers.”

      Yiiiiiiiiiiiikes.

    5. Anony Shark*

      You’d be voluntarily taking on additional and unnecessary stress. Even if you’re unemployed and under financial stress, you’d only be going from one bad situation to another.

    6. NicoleK*

      My replacement starts on Monday. If she’d been paying attention to the red flags, she should have turned the job down. My boss had forgotten that she had an interviewed scheduled, I had to remind her. First red flag: future boss was late to the interview. Second red flag: during interview with future coworkers, one asked the same question a couple of times after the candidate already provided an answer. Third red flag: one of the interviewers only asked about reporting, use of technology, and Excel.

  131. I'm just here for the cats*

    Anyone have any suggestions on how to get over anxiety caused from a former job. For background my first job out of college was at a call center. I worked there for 3 years before it closes. I would have anxiety attacks in the bathroom over bad phobe calls. I was yelled at on the call floor for laughing ( they thought I was yelling?) I lived with the constant fear of being fired because of a bad customer survey (because I literally couldn’t give them something they wanted) or for a small.mistake (didn’t brand the call enough). I had had 4 team leads and only the last one ever stood up for me.
    I am no longer in customer service and I have a great job. However I still get really anxious and find myself worrying about the silliest things. Like if I make a typo on something my first reaction is to freeze and wait for someone to tell at me. I guess I’m just waiting for the ball to drop.

    1. Kiwiii*

      i had this same problem when i moved from a really bad retail environment (a gym for 3.5 years and then grocery for a year – both with managers who delighted in playing mind games) to a very reasonable workplace. The only thing that really helped me was time away. It was probably 2 or 3 months before I stopped automatically tearing up at any feedback, because I’d gotten so used to being manipulated and gaslit. It’s okay to clue people in around you about the ways you’re struggling, but go ahead and try and also take your cues from them — if they’re not reacting poorly, try to mirror that energy. It’s that kind of fake it until you make it mentality — if you make yourself act like it’s not a big deal (and privately convince yourself it’s not a big deal) then eventually it will stop feeling like a big deal.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        I’m with Kiwii on this: Time is your ally. Not only will the chrono and the geographic distance from your former workplace help, but every day in your new workplace, you are building–little by little–trusting relationships with your new colleagues and new manager. I’m guessing it will be about 4-6 months before you will be able to relax into the new job, and about a year before you begin to feel like your old self again. (At least, that’s about how long it took me. YMMV) I wish you all the best during your recovery.

  132. Youth*

    My coworker said something odd at a meeting yesterday.

    He said that during job interviews, when he has an aggressive interviewer, he asks that interviewer, “What would you be doing if money were no object?” He says that this immediately makes the interviewer uncomfortable because they’re then forced to reveal what they actually want to do with their life in front of any colleagues present.
    I suppose that might be effective in making the interviewer stop being aggressive, but I’m confused because a) at what point during an interview would that ever be appropriate to ask the interviewer? and b) if you make the interviewer uncomfortable, wouldn’t that make them less likely to hire you?
    In short, I think this is just Bad Interviewing, but I’m curious if anyone thinks this is actually a good idea…

    1. Linda*

      I agree it’s bad interviewing. Its not a good idea to challenge the interviewer like that. And I don’t think too many interviewers would actually feel obligated to answer the question honestly anyway.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I am also having trouble thinking of a point at which that would be a logical question to ask the interviewer, but perhaps I’m just not very imaginative today.

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I thought at most that might be his answer to any kind of “Are there any questions you have for us?” question but even there, it’s a very strong non-sequitur. Might as well ask about literally anything else.

      3. Clisby*

        The only thing that comes to my mind is if the interviewer had just asked him the same question. I’m like other commenters who don’t see why this would make anyone uncomfortable.

        Me? “I’d buy Biltmore House in Asheville, NC, and start throwing house parties.”

    3. SciDiver*

      This sound like a terrible idea. You’re right that it’s not an appropriate question, and if you’re asking these questions at the end of the interview, what good would embarrassing your interviewer do? If they’re being that aggressive, I’d take that as a sign that they don’t know how to interview and/or that the company might not be a good fit if this is how they treat candidates.

      It also doesn’t seem that embarrassing! The interviewer could easily say “I’d be relaxing on the beach” or “I’d be a lion tamer” or even “that’s an odd question, why do you ask?”.

    4. Antilles*

      “What would you be doing if money were no object?” He says that this immediately makes the interviewer uncomfortable because they’re then forced to reveal what they actually want to do with their life in front of any colleagues present.
      Wait, what were his life goals that this would be an awkward question to answer?
      Maybe I’m an exception here, but my answer would be “spending time with my wife and family, traveling the world, and going to tons of college football games”…and I can 100% assure you that not a single person in my life would be the slightest bit surprised at one word of that answer.

      1. Youth*

        His hypothesis was that the most aggressive person in the room is the one who “drinks the most Kool-Aid,” and that their answer likely reveals that the company they work for isn’t, truthfully, their top priority. Which their colleagues would then be flabbergasted to learn.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Like they (the interviewers) aren’t smart enough to give a PC answer, though? Plus, the fallacy of this question was revealed over 2 decades ago in Office Space.

          1. Youth*

            He seemed to think it had, but he didn’t give a specific example. He’s a very nice, but very unusual, person.

    5. NicoleK*

      I’ve participated in interviews where the format/style was more conversational. So there was alot of back and forth between the interviewer and the interviewee. So there’s more opportunity to ask non traditional interview questions. That said, that question posed by your coworker sounds like he’s challenging the interviewer. I doubt that would lead to a job offer for most people.

  133. Three owls in a trench coat*

    Job update!!! My company just posted an opening for a position I would LOVE to have! I’m so excited to be applying for it!

    A little background: I’ve interviewed for this position before (it’s highly competitive). I’m very qualified and have had people tell me I interview well, but I don’t have quite as much experience in some areas as other candidates (of course, it’s more than the last time I interviewed). I’m also a little disadvantaged because the company awards “merit points” to interviewees currently working for them. So the longer you’ve been in your current position, the more points you get, and I haven’t been in my current position all that long.

    As many times as I’ve interviewed and as much as I prepare, I always get really bad nerves leading up to them. Like, make myself physically ill nerves. So I’m hoping that doesn’t happen this time around.

    Wish me luck everyone!

      1. Three owls in a trench coat*

        Thanks!

        Glad you like it. It’s partially inspired by a funny tweet I came across: “When a man says he’s looking for a ‘real woman’ I scurry away because I’m actually three owls in a raincoat AND HE MUSTN’T FIND OUT.”

  134. mike_b*

    I need help translating something into an acceptable thing to say to my manager:

    “Hey remember when you said that I was bad at my job because I don’t have a good working relationship with the Operations Specialist? Here she is calling me specifically out by name in official correspondence, after you, her and I all signed off on a dollar amount to send someone. No one else, just me. I’m so goddamn sick of having to prove to management that I’m not the one causing the problem here I swear to god. “

    1. Kathenus*

      Maybe you could frame it as a request for advice. “Hey manager, you recently spoke to me about improving my working relationship with Op Spec. Given that, do you have any suggestions on how I should respond to her correspondence yesterday where she blamed me for X situation; after you, she, and I all jointly approved the plan. Since she named me specifically as having done something wrong, I feel that I need to respond with the correct information, but I’d like your advice on how to do so in the most constructive way.”

    2. Meep meep*

      Hey manager,

      He’s a nice mention from Sally about my contribution to xxx – I’m especially pleased to see this project/account/whatever turned out so well. given the initial confusion/turmoil/other descriptive word here. (Attach the correspondence.)

      Best wishes,
      Mike

  135. NJBi*

    Anyone have reliable workwear recommendations, specifically blouses? I’ve been working post-college in an office with quite a casual dress code, but I’m hopefully going to be interviewing at graduate schools soon, and will need to finally buy some acceptable shirts that I can wear with the suit I bought at Banana Republic on sale for 75% off last year. Historically I’ve absolutely detested shopping for blouses because I have a hard time finding styles that fit properly (I’m pretty flat-chested and have a long torso, so there’s either a lot of room in the bust, or the shirt flares out for the hips at my ribcage… you get the gist). I was also shopping then as a student, so I was a lot shorter on cash than I am now, which made the ordeal doubly frustrating. Any recommendations for where to look, in particular for high-quality basics that won’t go out of style or fall apart so I can avoid repeating this process for as long as possible, would be greatly recommended!

    1. AnonPi*

      Talbots is pretty much a standard – I only buy their sale/clearance since I can’t afford their full price items, but sometimes they have good deals on nice clothing. Get on their mailing list for coupons and sometimes they’ll send an early notice about a sale.

    3. Diahann Carroll*

      Macy’s – they always have sales, and you should be able to find some basic Calvin Klein shells to go under your blazer.

    4. Llama Wrangler*

      Uniqlo has some good, affordable basics — look in both their t-shirts and blouses section of the website.

    5. EJane*

      Express has their portofino shirts, which are drapey enough that they are forgiving, without being ~seductive~. (Some of them have lace and cutouts, which is of course a bad choice.) Wearing a skin-toned tanktop under one of the solid-color ones avoids transparency issues, and they are often on sale.

      Also, to be quite frank, thredup is AMAZING. and you can search by brand. I bought my best friend fiiiiive? six? shirts for $60, and they were all from from Ann Taylor and Banana Republic. It’s by FAR your best bet.

    7. Happy Lurker*

      I have had good luck with Express Portofino blouses. I have had mine for 2-3 years. I get them online, because I am not a shopper. I just couldn’t find them in the store the one time I went.
      They are basic button down shirts. Thin polyester, wash and drip dry. No need for an iron!! I wear them in every season. In winter I put a long sleeve t shirt under, in summer the sleeves roll up to 2 different levels. I don’t wear them in a heat wave. Other than that I wear all 5 of them every week.
      I have purchased them on sale and had both good and bad luck with the quality. The link below shows the length of the shirts. They almost cover my average sized body down to my bum.

      https://www.express.com/womens-clothing/tops/portofino-shirts/original-fit-portofino-shirt/cat2410012

      Good luck with graduation school!

    8. CheeryO*

      I have a similar body type and have very good luck at J. Crew and LOFT. Try to keep an open mind while shopping – there’s a whole universe of acceptable shells and blouses beyond the standard silky button-down (which I personally can’t stand). As far as quality goes, honestly, if you hand wash or use the delicate cycle, you could get away with cheaper fabrics. It’s really the washing that kills clothes.

    9. Close Bracket*

      For a slim figure with a flat chest, try Express button downs. However, they might not work with a long torso. Sometimes their shirttails aren’t quite long enough, but sometimes they are!

  136. AnonPi*

    So I’m wondering for those who have moved from weekly/biweekly pay to monthly, how did you make that transition? Especially if like me you live pretty much pay check to pay check. I’m hoping to move into a higher level position which means going to a monthly pay schedule, but I’m worried about managing that first month w/o getting paid. Right now I’m hoping if the opportunity happens it would be after my tax refund (I do have a slim chance at one maybe in Feb – I’ve applied and pretty much guaranteed an interview since it’s in my division, but whether I’ll get it is another matter). Even with that it would be a strain to go a month without getting paid. And I feel awkward asking HR if there’s someway to get an advance or something to help.

    1. Kiwiii*

      I transitioned from weekly (paid the wednesday after) to bi-monthly (paid two weeks after the first 15 days) and the best way to deal with it probably going to be preparing for it now to create a buffer for yourself. If you can cut out streaming services, trim down food budget, do small gig jobs (dog walking, lyft, online transcription), you should be able to pad yourself enough to not feel the pinch quite as badly while waiting for that first new (hopefully better!) paycheck. I think there’s also a food delivery service that will provide about 2 week’s worth of food for 5 dollars with a subscription code, which would definitely help – let me see if I can find it.

      1. Kiwiii*

        oh, it was fullcart.org, but the code has since expired. still a good option for cheap meal options, though.

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      The concept of monthly pay is barbaric and states that allow it should be burned at the stake. And the fact that this pay schedule imposes on you such that you may be forced to talk to HR about your personal barriers to success reflects its heinousness not to mention the preparation to make it through the transition. What sucks is that your company, by using monthly payroll, saves payroll processing expenses, while inconveniencing the employee.

      In the words of a ‘The man, Becky Lynch’ that’s some devil shhht right there.

      1. Monthly Payroll Works for Me*

        Respectfully disagreeing with this. My entire company is on monthly payroll and has been for decades, and I find it very convenient and much easier to manage than biweekly or twice a month. My bills are due once a month, so – get paid, pay my bills, done. Much easier for me. Also our payroll is all done in-house so we aren’t saving payroll servicing money with this scheme. Though it does save our payroll clerk’s sanity. lol

        To the OP, it’s been years since I had to transition but when I joined this company they did offer me an early advance the first month if I needed it to ease the transition. Perhaps your payroll department has that option? Also, I use a credit card for a lot of monthly expenses like food and gas, which I then pay off at next pay day so maybe that’s an option to help with the transition? (My card of choice pays rewards which gives me an added advantage to doing it this was as well.)

        Monthly payroll may not work for everyone but it’s certainly not “barbaric”.

    3. Anono-me*

      It may be helpful to contact your various service providers and see if you can change your billing dates, or possibly even defer a few payments.

      Good luck.

  137. Cimorene*

    Any advice on addressing people management issues that are hard to define/articulate? For example, i someone who isn’t very articulate but not in a way that is easy to explain. It’s more a feeling of “you just said a bunch of words that i know the meaning of but somehow because of the way you put them together or the lack of specificity im still not sure what you mean.” or i’ll get feedback from other people about this manager along the lines of “i left the meeting with Jane less clear about what needed to happen than when i went in” or “I’m not really sure what Jane is asking for…” but when i ask follow up questions to get more details on this feedback other people can’t give me specifics either. I know i need to give Jane feedback on this issue because its holding her back and causing confusion but don’t know how to give feedback on something i know is an issue but having trouble diagnosing or being able to give really clear examples of. any suggestions?

    1. Cimorene*

      ugh, that was supposed to say “I manage someone…” would clearly help if i was more articulate as well ;)

    2. Profane Pencils*

      I know the type you’re referencing; I found it helpful to describe it as “using more words/descriptors than necessary, which can cloud your meaning and make it hard to track. Making an argument or presenting a point is about bulleted lists, not Dickensian sentences.” Admittedly, this was in an academic situation with a underclassman on our debate team, not at work, but we worked on it in a couple of ways:
      1. I asked her to tell me how many words she needed to explain something before she explained it. Having her set her own limits meant she set her own limits, instead of being told “explain this in ten words” and then feeling limited and resentful.
      2. I asked her yes or no questions, and stopped her when she tried to elaborate or go off on tangents. If she really struggled, I asked her to rephrase the question I’d asked, keeping it as a yes or no question, to encompass the extra meaning she wanted.
      3. She recorded her arguments and listened to the recordings to catch her own vocal tics and tendencies to go off on tangents.
      4. Challenging her to speak in very, very short sentences. Subject verb object. subject verb object. At most, two clauses. Confusion tends to sneak in when tangents lose their sentence structure, and then we can’t track where the subjects and objects and verbs and dependent clauses are and how they relate to each other.

      1. Profane Pencils*

        having set her own limits meant she set her own limits.
        good lord

        **Having her set her own limits meant she chose the level of challenge.

        Friday brain to the max.

      2. Cimorene*

        This is helpful. You made me realize that i need to pay more attention as to whether part of the problem is the amount of words she is using in addition to the specificity of the words she is using to get her point across. I will definitely try a couple of these ideas.

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      If she’s regularly unclear and you’re getting complaints, she needs to dry run stuff with you before the meeting and she shouldn’t be attending meetings alone. That people are coming to you for clarification on her asks is justification enough for feedback – if you have to clarify and go behind her to clean up, that’s not an effective use of your time. Sit in on a couple of her meetings to see what’s happening so you have specifics or, if she is also unclear in your conversations, start with that.

    4. Middle Manager*

      Don’t know if it’s the case for your employee, but I’ve found that some of my staff have a tendency to be unclear communicating because they themselves are unclear on a project/concept/etc. I had one poor performer in particular who tended to throw buzzwords into sentences constantly in ways that made no sense to anyone in our industry with any level of experience, but could let her sound marginally competent to non experts.

      1. Cimorene*

        In this case I think the manager is pretty clear (or at least thinks she is clear) on the work itself its just the words she uses to describe things. But its a good thing to flag I will watch for more closely. Thx!

    5. NicoleK*

      I have a coworker like that. She’ll write long, wordy, non sensical paragraphs and I still won’t understand what she is saying. I’ve resorted to telling her, “I don’t understand what you wrote/said, can you rephrase that?” Do you have specific examples written or verbal? It may be easier to give her feedback, when you can show her examples of her communication.

  138. GoogleLuddite*

    I just joined an organization that is uses a lot of googlesheets and googledocs for collaboration (even though we have dropbox as well). I find googlesheets and googledocs to be greatly inferior to their Office counterparts, but not sure if that is just because I’ve always used Office exclusively and just have a learning curve. We’re a small organization (about 10 people) and aren’t using spreadsheets for complicated calculations – more for planning and basic contact info tracking. So far it seems that googlesheets has fewer formatting options and it’s much harder to print or manipulate the way a spreadsheet looks. Are there other pros/cons?

    1. EJane*

      The primary pro is that using googlesheets and google drive for an organization is WAY less expensive (or free) than using office365. Onedrive also doesn’t play nice with Mac, while Google is more universal, and you need Onedrive to collaborate on office documents now.

    2. NJBi*

      I’ve used both, and I definitely prefer Google Sheets and Google Docs to the Word doc or Excel sheet in a Dropbox solution for collaborative work that isn’t terribly complex. With the Google products, you’re able to have multiple people editing different parts of the document at the same time, and you avoid the “multiple users have opened this–overwrite their changes or create a copy?” error messages that I would get regularly with Dropbox. They’re also more portable–no need to download and reupload if you’re working on a device that doesn’t have your Dropbox installed. The documents and spreadsheets aren’t as pretty as Office counterparts might be, but for me, the ease of collaboration and lack of “multiple versions” issues are well worth the tradeoff.

    3. Anonymato*

      I dislike GoogleSheets and GoogleDocs but they are extensively used in my company because of the ease of sharing aspect. I am equally annoyed by the lack of nuance and clunky manipulation, and by not being able to find them/not having access if an employee left the company. I got used to it, but in some cases, I resort to downloading, doing whatever I need to do in Excel, and then copying over…

    4. NotAnotherManager!*

      Cost and better simultaneous editing capabilities are the two Google pros.

      I am also a Google “Office” hater. My kids use it for school, and it is stupidly missing some things that I regularly use (e.g, header row repeat for tables in docs). I think the Google PowerPoint equivalent is awful and struggle to help my kids make more polished presentations with it because it’s so limited.

      1. Squidhead*

        That’s funny- Google Slides are my least-hated of the three! Docs drove me crazy because of very limited formatting options…I was using it for a degree program where APA formatting was required. ‘Whaddya mean I can’t do a hanging indent?! How am I going to format 3 pages of references?’ Simultaneous editing was handy as was the ability (in Docs…I don’t think it exists in the other products) to pend an edit and then allow others to finalize it. But the final draft of everything we turned in got imported into Word, reformatted, and then submitted.

  139. EJane*

    Job application halp?
    (I’m finally getting the HELL out of the place I’ve been for the last year. I tried and tried to tell myself it would work out and then I recognized the lunacy in that. Someday I’ll work somewhere that doesn’t leave me feeling physically sick 60% of the time. Someday.)

    I’m applying for a faculty senate records keeper position. They’ve requested writing samples, since the position requires taking formal minutes and such. My problem is this:
    All of the most relevant writing examples are from when I worked at a hospital, so even if I had access to the formal minutes I took, I couldn’t share them. The work I’ve done at my current position has been light on applicable writing; I’ve taken very informal minutes, written down company procedures, and created a lot of flowcharts for our technicians. I don’t know what to look for when finding a sample to send, except attention to detail, or how long it should be (the application didn’t specify).

    Any insight would be very helpful.

    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      IMO, writing samples don’t have to be real, they’re just samples of your writing. You can also anonymize prior work by removing people/company names and identifying details. To the extent you can get additional details about what is expected in form and length from the prospective employer, I’d ask the recruiting contact for more information.

      1. EJane*

        Thank you!
        I think I’m going to send a modified version of a procedure I documented, and a diagram of how to organize digital files that I sent to one of our clients, since they specifically mentioned digital recordkeeping in the listing.

  140. Dezzi*

    My direct report has been sexually harassed by a coworker from another department for months. We went to HR, they instantly moved her to another area where she wouldn’t have any contact with him (note, said move had already been in the works, this just moved it up by a few weeks; it’s an awesome opportunity that she had been looking forward to).

    She has been, understandably, reluctant to talk about details of all the crap he said to her. Unfortunately, that’s hindering HR’s investigation. She’s been asked to obtain and turn over call logs from her personal cell, which she’s refusing to to. Which, obviously, is her right…but since she had also deleted most of the messages he allegedly sent her, is making things difficult.

    Does anyone have suggestions on a) how to handle a situation like this and conduct an investigation without re-traumatizing the victim, and b) what, if anything, I can say that might convince her to be more frank with HR? They’ve made it very clear they believe her and are behind her 100% and will do whatever is needed to keep her safe and comfortable in the workplace, and so have I. I’ve also given her all the information about her EAP and set up regular check-ins with her to make sure she’s doing okay. I just don’t know what else I can do, or *if* there’s anything I can do…this whole situation is just frustrating and it sucks and I feel really powerless right now.

    Creeper Dude also recently applied for a position where he’d have contact information for 12+ female staff, who he’d be allowed to discipline for not returning his phone calls. He’d also be completely responsible for how many hours they worked, and would have minimal (if any) oversight of how he was distributing hours. This seems like a recipe for disaster/giant lawsuits and I’m terrified we haven’t given HR enough to stop this.

    1. Dezzi*

      (I should note, the only reason it went on for months is that she didn’t tell anyone it was happening. She assumed that if she just kept ignoring him, he’d stop. If only the world worked that way…)

      1. animaniactoo*

        Personal experience: It’s highly likely that she doesn’t want to turn over her call logs or give other information because one of two (and possibly both) things are in play.

        1) She initially responded to some of his advances and feels that will come up/weaken her claim.
        2) She has other stuff on the phone which would be a problem for her in terms of the job.

        If she can’t turn over stuff without endangering her job, she’s not going to do it. I would encourage screen shots where possible, and being strong about the idea that even if she basically ghosted him in a personal flirtation or one-night stand, months of harassment is not an acceptable response and you would view that as problematic, whether she told him to stop or not. She stopped responding. It might not have been the best way to deal with it, but people DO get the message when the other person stops responding.

        1. valentine*

          Why doesn’t HR ask him for his logs?

          I would contact RAINN or similar professionals, but there’s no reason HR can’t say no to the job where he’d control women. They can take action and mitigate him without court-level proof. If he sued, wouldn’t that result in a subpoena for the logs?

          1. Dezzi*

            I’m sure they will ask him for them. But since they talked to her first, she was the first one asked for them, and I’m sure they assumed she would be more likely than him to turn them over.

            I spoke with our recruiter yesterday, and made sure she was fully aware of the situation. The transfer is “on hold” for now while the investigation runs its course, and I’m considering what steps I would take if they let it go through. I’d prefer not to lose my job over this…but if I have to, I will.

        2. Dezzi*

          Unfortunately, she says she deleted all the godawful texts he sent her “right away”, because she couldn’t stand looking at them or having to see them. So the logs would only prove that he’d been contacting her at all hours of the night, and that she wasn’t initiating contact.

          I had the conversation with her that it wouldn’t change anything if she’d ever responded to his messages, gone along with them, had a thing with him, whatever–none of that changes the fact that his behavior is 3000% not okay. She thanked me for saying so, but was super insistent that nothing like that had ever happened. I believe her.

          On a happier note, she loves her new department and is settling in really quickly there. It’s a whole new set of challenges for her, and I can’t wait to see how she does!

    2. !*

      Do you get any indication, if your direct report does provide additional information, she fears that the harasser will retaliate? What, exactly, does she expect to be done about him, does she want him fired, or is she happy with the outcome of being moved sooner? This is an icky situation to be in where you know there is an issue, but the victim is refusing to cooperate to the full extent so something constructive can be done to prevent this from happening to anyone else. Perhaps you can or HR can bring up that point. Does your company have sexual harassment training for all employees so that everyone knows how seriously HR takes this? I am guessing at this point that nothing has been done/said to the (only accused) harasser?

      1. Dezzi*

        We have sexual harassment training for everyone; this dude took it about a month before he started boundary-stomping with her (I know the date, because he was a new hire), and two months before he started with the overt harassment.

        HR hasn’t spoken with him yet, AFAIK…they’re “investigating” the situation. We’ll see how that goes.

    3. Anon for this*

      I went through something similar with an employee of mine and it’s hard. You might try asking if she knows of any other victims of Creeper Dude, or if he mentioned any other women to her. And suggest that if it’s too hard to talk about, maybe she could write some of it down for HR. (My employee produced a sheet of bullet points, as she couldn’t talk about it without crying.)

    4. EJane*

      She might (MIGHT) be able to request records of the messages he sent her from her cell phone company, if they were sent as SMS instead of iMessages. If they can produce that, she can provide evidence without relinquishing her phone. I would be super reluctant to give anyone my phone in her shoes, too. I guarantee she feels partially responsible for this situation, because she didn’t speak up earlier and feels like that somehow makes this her fault, in addition to any potential initial interest. (Speaking from experience.)

      1. Dezzi*

        They’re not asking for her phone, just for her to get the logs from her carrier. She’s declining at this point because she really just wants this whole thing to be over with and to not have to think about it any more, and she thinks that if she hands them over she’ll have to have another conversation with HR about it. Which, yeah, she probably will.

        And yes, she does have all those feelings. I’m glad she feels okay telling me about them, and I’ve made sure she has all the information about our EAP & that she can come to me any time she wants to talk.

    5. Utoh!*

      What did she want done about this guy? Does she realize without any proof it will be virtually impossible for him to be disciplined? Does your company have mandatory sexual harassment training for all general employees as well as managers (since he is potentially going to be one)? Your company has to cover itself by ensuring mandatory compliance as well as emphasizing no retaliation for anyone reporting sexual harassment. You may not get satisfactory results for this situation but having a strong policy in place could assist in any future issues being fully resolved.

      1. Dezzi*

        We have all kinds of mandatory training, but creepers gonna creep no matter how many times you tell them it’s Not Allowed.

        She just wants to move on with her career and be done with this situation, and I can’t blame her. She’s working with a different group now (I’m still her manager) where she won’t have any contact with him, and I’m sure she’ll thrive there. She’s a rockstar, and we’re lucky to have her. Would I love if she was totally open and told HR everything, so we could make sure he doesn’t do this to anyone else again? Yep, but putting the weight of “he could do this to someone else, and it’s your responsibility to stop that” on her is not something I’m willing to do.

  141. Katniss Evergreen*

    I’ve been using the ‘surprise me!’ function and ended up on a post about your older male colleagues condescending to you. As someone who has been confronted with a couple of these and has handled one well, and more than a few in ways I wish I hadn’t, I’m happy that now my mind jumps pretty immediately to the phrase “walk through life with the confidence of a mediocre white man” as I read Alison’s advice to not give a crap.

    Just a happy Friday feeling on an otherwise not-awesome Friday. Have a good weekend everyone.

  142. Orange Crushed*

    Are there jobs where it’s okay to not be seated at your desk the whole time? I’ve been at my job for 6 months and I feel like I’m being babysat or something. Coworkers notice if I leave my area for 10 minutes- Sometimes it’s to get coffee and use the restroom, other times it’s to go check in with my team in another building, etc.
    (I overheard them talking about me one time.) I’m not Admin, so it’s not like I have phones to answer. I don’t get it.

    3. Orange Crushed*

      I’m working, too. I’m not socializing. Once I was working on my laptop in a different room and my boss flipped her lid. I don’t understand because I was still working…

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        That’s some micromanaging and an amazingly hard amount of distrust.

        I assume everyone is working unless deliverables are delayed, then I assume something came up and I ask about it in terms of “Oh what’s up with that? Did it get held up somewhere? Waiting for it…” not because someone is slacking and over there playing cell phone games or some whatever waste of work time.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      WUT?! Do you work in a call center or something?! That’s some call-center devil shht right there.

      It’s not normal to police your coworkers and their time away from their desk.

      My job now is 99% desk work. The 1% is stuff I’ve found to get me out of my office and happily will restock supplies to get my eyes off a screen for 20 minutes.

      But I’m out of my office frequently enough. Bathroom, I go to talk to people instead of email because ew, we’re 20 people deep, I’m not going to email them. I even laughed at my boss when he was all “The mail box at the new place is even closer!” “Why would that be a plus…I take the long way to get there for a reason!” LOL

      The most I get is “oh you weren’t in your office, there you are!” if they’re looking for me about something. I’d bounce anywhere that wanted to act like I was chained to a desk chair. That’s obscene unless you are in a coverage position, which you mention you are not.

      1. 653-CXK*

        I’ve discovered that micromanaging is directly proportional to metrics. Any kind of place that relies heavily on metrics will be stiflingly controlled and monitored. It’s not normal and it’s the main reason I would never go back to a workplace that relies on metrics.

        Last year, one company saw my resume on Indeed wanted me to set up an interview. The job description – you’ll be processing, but you’ll be required to have a camera trained on you the entire time. I sent them a email back, telling them in no uncertain terms I would never want to be subjected to that kind of extreme micromanagement ever again and I would NOT be scheduling an interview.

        And yes, those times when you do something else to keep your eyes off a screen (filing, getting copies off a printer, even callbacks) are a blessing.

    5. beanie gee*

      I worked at a place like this for too long. I’m going to guess that people don’t have good ways of telling if people are being productive and getting their work done because people are poorly managed, so people are left to see “hours at desk” as “hours worked” when it should be “x amount of work produced” = “hours worked.”

      If it’s coworkers, I found that the people that did the least amount of work (who were ironically seated at their desk the most) had the most time to passive aggressively track how long other people’s lunch breaks were or how often they were away from their desk.

  143. Mimmy*

    *slaps forehead* big ol’ “duh” moment!

    You would think that, as many times I’ve been in school that I would know how the admissions process works!!! I’m still waiting for the process to be completed so that I can finally register for classes, which start three weeks from Monday. I called the registrar’s office to get a sense of when I can register. The woman was very helpful. She then transferred me to my program’s department to talk with the assistant director (AD) It went to voice mail so I decided it wasn’t worth leaving a message. Well, AD returns my call so I explained why I was calling. Well, she kinda slapped my hand, saying the registrar wasn’t the right place to call because I’m not a student yet – I’m “being admitted” and that the process is a “hand-off”.

    Now I feel like I’m going to be flagged as a PITA student. Ugh. Is it too much to ask for schools to spell out the process a little clearer?

    I really hope I don’t regret doing this program.

    1. Zephy*

      Higher ed is a granite octopus – as a student, you most likely have no way of knowing their process from the outside. I wouldn’t take the AD’s remarks as a slap on the hand; she was probably trying to clarify the process for you. She didn’t put a big bright-yellow “PITA” flag on your account or anything like that, don’t worry.

      If you didn’t actually get an answer to your question, maybe give it a few business days before you follow up again next week – these past two weeks having holidays smack in the middle of them has thrown many a wrench into many a works, I imagine.

      1. Mimmy*

        Yeah, the woman at the Registrar’s office did say that there was a backlog in the Admissions office due to the holidays. It sounds like I should hear something next week though. Ahhh patience is definitely not one of my stronger assets (don’t tell that to my students though! :P )

  144. Sally Mack*

    What’s the reasoning behind the interview question: “tell me about a time you fired someone”?

    1. Parenthetically*

      If you’re being interviewed for a managerial role, it makes perfect sense for your potential bosses and colleagues to want to know how you handled an unpleasant task like firing! I certainly wouldn’t want to hire a manager without knowing if they knew how to be professional and appropriate in those situations. I think you’d want to focus on how you communicated with the person about problems with their performance, and how you dealt calmly with the actual firing conversation.

      1. Sally Mack*

        Well I haven’t fired anyone so… is that a red flag? Should all good managers have fired someone?

        1. Anony Shark*

          No! I would say “Fortunately I haven’t had to fire anyone. But there was a time when I needed to address concerns with a particular employee about X, and I did *blah blah blah* throughout the process.” You want to give evidence of being able to raise concerns about poor performance/misconduct directly and professionally.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Quick question. Have you not fired someone because you haven’t needed to or have you not had the authority?

          This is only important because of how you’ll want to answer the question. I’d say “I thankfully haven’t had to terminate anyone” if you haven’t needed to or you should be forthcoming if you’ve never had the authority. That is important to us at least, only because we know what you’ll need assistance with and coaching on in the event this comes up. I don’t want to be throwing you into a first time situation and think you have it down, when you don’t, you know?

        3. Parenthetically*

          No, not necessarily, but I’d want to know why you hadn’t! Agreeing with Becky that I’d want to know if it’s because you didn’t have firing authority or just never needed to, or worse, that you REALLY needed to but were a bad manager and didn’t!

          1. Sally Mack*

            How would you find that out from an interview though? Is someone going to be like, “Yeah my team doesn’t get their work done but I don’t fire them because who cares!”

            I’ve had a really great team, tbh! I give them feedback and help when problems arise, but I haven’t needed to fire anyone.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s because we want to know that you’ve done it and how you handled it. It’s an incredibly difficult task that has to be done with a lot of care, some people haven’t or cannot do it.

      We ask about this and also disciplinary actions people have had to take, “have you ever had to issue a performance plan?” kind of thing. It’s pretty critical to management and you want to make sure someone is capable of this kind of stuff given it’s a huge part of management…

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        This, exactly. Performance management is a managerial skill, and asking if people have experience with it, up to and including termination is actually a good thing to ask. Not infrequently, people become managers based on their individual contributor work and not their aptitude for people management – this question is a people management assessor.

    3. beanie gee*

      In addition to what others said, they might be trying to get a sense of your general problem-solving people skills. If your answer was “We had this guy who never showed up to work on time so we fired him” that might not reflect as well as saying “Luckily I haven’t had to fire anyone so far. We did have this guy who never showed up to work on time, so we had some hard conversations about why he was late and made it clear that being on time is a crucial part of staying in the job. We made a plan and now he sticks to that plan. At the time it looked like we might have to fire him if things didn’t change, but together we made changes and now he’s fantastic.”

      If all of your employees have been great so far, you could probably speak to how you think you’d handle an employee having performance issues.

    4. Three owls in a trench coat*

      They’re most likely trying to get a sense of how you approach problems and if/how you take initiative to solve problems that are sticky or unpleasant. I’ve known more than one manager who is well aware of issues in the workplace but for whatever reason doesn’t address them (aka, the kind of managers keeping Alison in business).

      If you’ve never had to fire someone, tell about a time you needed to discuss issues with an employee, or how you would handle a firing if the situation arises.

  145. Candy*

    I’ve joined the employee wellness committee at my work. Last year the committee took part in a 10k race, had a knitting group, board games in the staff lounge, salsa lunch time dance class, etc. — anyone have other ideas for activities?

    1. Me*

      How about things related to mindfulness like meditation? Or lunch and learns about things like good sleep hygiene and healthy meals to go?

    2. TCO*

      A favorite employee wellness event at a couple of my past workplaces has been an office cleaning day. Everyone is encouraged to set aside a bit of time on their calendars that day to do some kind of cleaning/organizing of their workspace. The office would set out basic cleaning supplies, bring in big recycling bins for files and the like, and provide healthy snacks.

      When I organized it, we’d also send out tips about what people could do (for instance, in 15 minutes you could organize your desk drawer, in 30 minutes you could clean out a few paper or e-mail files, in an hour you could deep-clean all of the surfaces in your office).

      1. CheeryO*

        This is probably super dorky, but we had a lunchtime seminar about “green” cleaning products where we got to make our own homemade cleaning solution, and people are still talking about it years later. It was SUCH a hit, weirdly enough.

    3. Zephy*

      Walking path on the company grounds, just a little 1/4 mile loop?

      Community garden (even if the “community” is “people who work here”)?

      If you have a local sip-and-paint place, where an instructor guides a group of people through the process of painting a particular image on a canvas (and that also serves beer and wine), an evening/weekend afternoon at one of those could be fun. In my neck of the woods, the classes are in the $30-50 per person range, and they provide your canvas, tools, and paint; they usually also have group rates available. Sometimes the refreshments are included, other times it’s a cash bar, and other times it’s BYOB.

    4. EJane*

      visits from local shelters? a lunchtime visit to a room of kittens or puppies would go over VERY well

  146. Lily the Llama*

    It’s really difficult for me to understand the normal expectations of any job because I finish my work too quickly.

    In every job I’ve had, my manager is surprised about how fast I work. In first couple jobs out of college, I ended up working 3x the amount of my predecessors because of this.

    Like, I just had a project which was supposed to take me a week and I did it in a two hours. I don’t think it’s because it was an easy project. I think it took people a week in the past.

    I don’t want it to sound like I’m full of myself. I’m legitimately confused.

    Am I just in the wrong job or do I have unrealistic expectations about what a job requires?

    1. Lily the Llama*

      I should mention — I get good feedback also. I don’t *feel* like I’m rushing through it either so I don’t understand why it would take someone longer to do.

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      This happens to me, too, and the best I’ve been able to figure is that I am pretty good at being able to see all the necessary tasks and line them up in the most efficient manner (for instance, using wait-time on a computer process to do something else toward completion) and to identify things that can be streamlined or done via technology rather than manually. The biggest problem it has created for me is that I can have an unreasonable expectation of the amount of time something should take, so I check in with people whose work I trust and see what their metrics look like to get a more reasonable estimate. (The second biggest is that I am a terrible procrastinator because I know I can just bang it out at the last minute and still have done a good job.)

      I find that trying to keep myself busy and with plenty on my plate helps, but I’m also fortunate that being faster-than-average is not punished in my industry.

      Re figuring out why it takes others longer, I work with people and observe their process to see where they’re getting hung up. For people with whom I have a good relationship, I offer help when there’s a positive way to do so and it doesn’t seem like I’m criticizing them. And if they complain about how time-consuming something is, that can be a good opening to share how I’ve figured out to speed it up.

    3. Uncivil Engineer*

      I took over a management position that was vacant due to the previous person having been promoted. The workgroup was 6-12 months behind schedule with their work. I was told it was because the workgroup had more work than they could do and I could ask for more positions next fiscal year but just had to make do for now. I made some changes to the work flow and a few other things. A year later, we are 6 months AHEAD of schedule and that gap is continuing to grow. And, that is after I reduced by 1.5 the number of positions in the group. I have no idea what the previous person was doing or how they managed to get promoted while running a workgroup that was failing to do their job.

      Some people are just better at some jobs than others. You may have unrealistic expectations AND are in too easy of a job. It’s a boring situation to be in (what am I supposed to do all day?) but, personally, it has put me in an excellent position when promotional opportunities come up.

      1. Lily the Llama*

        Hmmm really? Has it gotten you into trouble at all though? I find that people tend to be extra skeptical and try to find errors where there aren’t any because they don’t believe me!

        1. Uncivil Engineer*

          It hasn’t gotten me in to trouble. I’ve asked for more work but, when none is forthcoming, I stop asking for a while before bringing it up again. I’m also at the level now where I can usually make something up for myself to do to fill my time even if it doesn’t need to be done.

          Supervisors were skeptical, yes, but when they used to check my work for errors and found few or none, the skepticism went away.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Are you me? This entire comment is my entire work life.

            There is nothing wrong with being highly efficient.

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I am also like this. One way I’ve handled this, is to make sure I turn stuff in around the due date, even if I’ve finished it earlier. For me at least, it caused a LOT of trouble, I got accused of “showing off” and “being condescending and uppity,” and my lower-performing coworkers felt threatened that I’d shown their jobs could be done at a higher level of accuracy, in way less time. In several cases, it also resulted in me wasting my time, as assignments I did early were materially changed by the due date as a result of feedback from my coworkers, so I would end up doing the same task twice, two different ways.

      I am very, very careful to take the temperature of the workplace before I let people know I am a fast worker.

      1. Auntie Social*

        In one case I’ve had higher-ups think I was uppity. Our corporate head office told the claims dept (me) that we were no longer to indicate on our paperwork what kind of claim it was. So I did it their way but I continued to keep a record of what type each claim was, because I’d done it way for 10+ years and the categories were important. So we get a call 18 mos later that–whoops!–corporate needs that info after all, and we must go to storage and check each file. Except I grabbed my book and looked at each category and told them before the call was over. They asked why I had that info, I said I thought it was important. Every other claims dept took weeks, the answer for my division took less than a minute–and I got called uppity. Sigh. Hey, I didn’t call them wrong to their faces!!

        1. tangerineRose*

          I think they felt stupid (which they were) and were obnoxious to you to try to cover themselves (just made them look worse).

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Some of us are like this, you are not alone but I’ve had to learn [kind of the hard way] that we’re just wired to do things quickly. I’m glad that you already acknowledge that you understand others who do need that week to produce what you did in two hours! That’s a huge step above where I was when I realized this in myself.

      I once was put on a temp job that they scheduled for 3 weeks. I was before 2 weeks were up. They were shocked as well. All my temp jobs ended up wrapping up much sooner than they had scheduled for in the end, everyone was excited and happy with my work. Whereas I worked in a couple teams where people were noticeably slower for good reason in some situations and other situations were because they just were bad at the job, so it took them longer to go through the steps.

      You are not necessarily in the wrong job or don’t understand what it requires! I have a lot of downtime in my current job because of my fast pace and also that things are so streamlined for me already [and I find ways to shorten them still in some instances]. This can increase boredom and brain-rot though, depending on your standards of what you need to be doing to feel like you’re not just sucking up oxygen in a room for cash.

      Are you interested in moving up and into more complex roles? This ability has gotten me where I am today, since a 40hr a week job gets a lot more stuffed into it and I can start snatching projects off my bosses pile here and there, which then gets me deeper involved in the executive areas.

    6. only acting normal*

      I used to be really fast at projects. I still would be if I weren’t also juggling a bunch of administrative stuff that comes with a more senior position, and the call backs about projects I did 10 years ago, and the questions from junior staff I’m helping develop, and the peer reviewing, and the senior management asking for mid-level tech staff to weigh in on corporate developments, and you get the picture. (Not complaining, just the reality I’ve observed.) Maybe I’m still fast compared to peers juggling the same things, it’s just harder to quantify.

      It does lead to me overestimating how much time a project will take when I give it to a junior, because I’m subconsciously thinking how long it’d take *me* to do it currently (fitting it in among a dozen other things), whereas they can usually focus solely on it or it +1 or 2 other things. If I give them 3 weeks and it takes them an afternoon, fine, it just would have taken me 3 weeks to find that spare afternoon to do it in (or more likely 4x 1hr slots).

  147. WalkedInMyShoes*

    I was offered a job and turned it down because it was 20% lower in base salary, but with a bigger title and more responsibilities. It’s taken me longer to find a new job. Should I go back and accept it, and continue applying? Or should I just wait it out? I have a PT job just to pay the necessities like a car payment, gas, and utilities, but nothing else. I don’t want to end up trying to recover financially if I take the pay cut. Also, the leadership team is not accessible which part of my job to partner with them. I welcome all the advice and encouragement.

    1. fposte*

      Can’t say from here what the right choice would be, but generally if you’ve turned a job down that’s pretty much done, especially in a case like yours where there wasn’t a situational change that led to your change of mind.

      I’m not quite sure I’m clear on your situation–do you currently have only the PT job, and the job you turned down had a salary lower than the PT income? Or was it lower than your prior salary? I wouldn’t leave for a lower pay than you’re currently making PT unless the benefits really made up for it, but if the comparison is to your previous salary, I’d probably think through how long you’d be okay with only the PT work, and by “okay” I mean both financially and career-trajectory wise. 20% lower salary than you previously made might be worth taking if you’re in a one-job-a-year area and field, but not if you’ll likely get a full market rate possibility next month.

      1. WalkedInMyShoes*

        I had a full-time job until September last year and also had a PT job on top of that. So, I worked two jobs. the 20% lower salary was my previous full-time role. Thanks the feedback. I wouldn’t leave for a lower base pay either. The bonus and stocks were not negotiable.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I don’t think you can do an “take back”… If anyone turns down a job and then comes back to say “Nevermind, I’ll take it.” we always decline them because that’s one of the hugest red flags for a new hire. Are they still pursuing you, is that why you still think the offer is on the table?!

      But I say if you can barely survive on what you’re making now, taking a 20% decrease is not going to do you any favors and I’d let it sail.

      1. WalkedInMyShoes*

        The hiring manager left the door open if I needed the job or decide that the other companies are not coming through. All the companies with which I am interviewing are moving on with other candidates or filling a role with a personal recommendation. So, my savings is almost depleted and want to have a full-time job in the same area before I get branded as “why can’t this person not get a job in this ‘hot market’ “.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Okay this makes a lot more sense!

          So it’s 20% less than your previous full time. You’ve only been looking for 3 months though. That is not a long time! You are not in danger of getting branded like that, that takes years, not months.

          If they’re still pursuing you, I’d honestly think of taking it. Since they sound desperate and this is better than just a PT position, while you keep looking for another option.

          Does this place have any room to grow and have you asked about future earning potential? I took a small cut to take my current position only because I was trying to escape a hellscape and knew it would grease the wheels [also benefits were better so I could afford it, I’m talking about 3% decrease]. But after 90 days I was above where I was. Can they tell you if you’re “stuck” at 20% less or if that’s just until you reach a year or something like that? Just a “This position starts at X but we do annual increases of Y% on average.”?

  148. NewGrad2020*

    Quick Question! I am going to be graduating in June 2020 and am looking for a job (in the field of software engineering if it’s relevant). However, right after I’d graduate, I’d love to take a 2 week trip to a location I’ve always wanted to travel to. Additionally, I’m looking for jobs out of state so I would need a few days to move in. Would it potentially put off employers if I told them that my graduation date is this, but I won’t be available to start work until 3 weeks after that?

    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      I don’t work in software engineering, but I do hire a lot of new graduates. We expect that people will require a few weeks to relocate, etc. and just ask when they’re available to start. A few weeks usually works, but months doesn’t not (and yes, I’ve had candidates ask to take the summer off before starting).

    2. Princesa Zelda*

      When it comes up, I’d just say “the earliest I can start is Date, will that work?” They’ll understand that you’ve got stuff to wrap up.

    3. beanie gee*

      If the jobs you’re applying for have phone screens, this would be a great question to ask then. If they have a preferred start date in mind.

      A lot of times if you’re changing jobs it’s very normal to ask for a week or two between jobs plus you need to give at least two weeks notice for your current job, which can mean a start date a month after the offer date.

      In your case, it’s not dependent on giving notice or having to give two weeks – you could probably estimate a start date and communicate that in the phone screen “I wouldn’t be able to start until July 1st.”

      Good luck!

  149. Princesa Zelda*

    Summoning the university admissions types of AAM! O wise and noble ones!
    I’ve started looking to apply to grad schools for the fall. I’m likely going to take the first year or so online, since I’ve just landed a cool-looking NewJob handling congressional documents, and I’d like to stay at CurrentJob as a circulation attendant for a little while longer to build up a solid work history. I’m looking at MLIS programs, especially University of Washington. It seems like a lot of them want a diversity statement. All the guidance I’ve seen has been for faculty, like explaining how you value diversity in your classroom or help out students from minority backgrounds. Since I wouldn’t be teaching, I don’t really know what to do to address this. I also don’t really want to bring my own background into it — I don’t want to feel like I “only” got in because I’m queer/female-ish/from a rural area/etc. What are they looking for from prospective students? What should I be bringing into the essay from my life and what should I leave out?
    Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Reba*

      It should be subjective (though I get your hesitation about presenting yourself as a potential ‘token’ person). It should IMO go beyond platitudes and address how your specific experiences have brought you to your convictions about the subject, so avoiding your identities would be hard to do.

      And it can be future-oriented, so not about university teaching but about your commitment to inclusivity for your future career, why you believe it is critical for library and archives professionals to do this, etc.

      Look at the thread linked by Lady Jay above; it’s for faculty positions but should be helpful!

    2. Librarian of Many Hats*

      Not a university admissions type, just someone with an MLIS.

      I’m thinking of how you can make it unique but not too personal (unless you want it to be). For example, an experience that led you to pursuing this career path or something that made you realize the important role libraries play in promoting diversity and inclusion. What perspectives or ideas can you bring to the table that are unique to you? You don’t have to mention that you’re queer if you don’t want to – maybe say something like “LGBT+ issues are important to me so I want to help libraries to provide resources on them”, etc.

      Maybe not the advice you were looking for but still wishing you luck with the application process.

  150. Disabled and working.*

    Hi everyone, got a question. I live in Ohio in the United States and am on SSDI. I also work part time. My schedule that I agreed to work 15 years ago was four hours a day, m-f during the week.

    Due to having less and less morter agents (its a call center), they are making us work weekends and I am scheduled for more hours than I am allowed. (Just an extra hour, but that extra hour kills my back and I really don’t want SSDI to audit me because of this.)

    They are saying I have to do it…does anyone know if I do? I know I should just find another job, but with my brain fog, I think I would have a difficult time learning a new job. This is causing me lots of stress, which does not help my disability. I am going to have my doctor fill out the ADA form to say what I am allowed to do, but they are saying they might not be able to comply. The only reason why not is because our company doesn’t want to spend money on hiring more agents. Please if anyone has any advice, let me know, I am really stressed out.

    Thanks!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Not a lawyer: It seems like reducing your hours isn’t unreasonable accommodation on their part, so being ADA-compliant would require them to keep your hours restricted too whta your doctor recommends.

      1. fposte*

        I think you’re probably right; the problem is that that won’t necessarily stop DAW’s employer from firing her. DAW, if you have a state/municipal EEOC, Disability Rights Commission, or anything similar, I would try to check with them ASAP. Get that documentation from the doctor ASAP as well.

        I’d stay away from mention of SSDI; AFAIK, they have no legal obligation to accommodate your SSDI threshold. Stick to the limits of your disability itself.

    2. LGC*

      That’s rough!

      From what I understand, their stance…doesn’t sound that reasonable. I can understand the coverage aspect, but it seems like they’ve already adjusted their schedule to accommodate you. There isn’t a perfect answer, but I feel like the best answer would be to ask someone else who isn’t doing weekends to work the extra hours, or – possibly – to do without if they really can’t hire. It’s a collaborative process – just because something isn’t ideal for a company doesn’t mean that they’re not obligated to do it if they have the documentation.

      I’m just curious – who told you that you absolutely had to work weekends? Do you have a formal HR department? I’d feel a bit more sanguine if it was just your direct supervisor saying that as opposed to HR or upper management.

      In terms of income, it gets tricky depending on what your hourly rate is. At the amount you’re working, you should be fine for SSDI purposes if you’re not right up against the cap ($1170/mo, or ~$270/wk). Hopefully, this is a bit reassuring – I work with quite a few people that are on SSDI, and although there are months where they have to adjust their hours, I haven’t heard many issues. (And believe me, I would hear about them!) So, I’m hoping that you’ll be fine.

      1. Disabled and working.*

        I was told by the head supervisor and HR. I just can’t do weekends because I spend those two days resting from the week (usually in a lot of pain by friday), and it is also the only time I can spend with my support system, which is really needed as I battle with depression. I was willing to do one a month, but more than that, can’t do.

        1. LGC*

          Hm.

          So – like – to be quite honest, you should get the letter as soon as possible (good on you for getting it!). That’s really going to help reinforce your position.

          On that note – I’m not sure whether they’re understaffed in general or understaffed on the weekends particularly. You might want to try a compromise where you work five days a week, but one of them is a weekend day (so for example, Sunday through Thursday or M-W, then Friday and Saturday). It would take away one of your weekend days with your support system, but if they just need people on the weekends and can cope without you on a weekday, that would actually work out well on their end. (On your end, it’d be a major change, but you’d be working the same amount you are now and you’d still have a weekend day for yourself. And a weekday to possibly run any errands.)

          I know I’m responding really late, but I hope you see this – and let us know how it goes in next week’s open!

    3. Kiwiii*

      When I supervised at a grocery store in Wisconsin (so the rules may be different) we had an employee on SSDI who we had to be very very careful to schedule, because of the rules around how many hours she could work. That should be something they’re aware of and actively work around; just remind them of that.

  151. Sarah-tonin*

    can I get some good vibes for my job search? I currently work as a librarian and am looking for something full-time (in chicago as I have family in the general area).

    I don’t have much experience in workplaces that are not public libraries, but I’m trying to find a typical 9-5 job because the nights and weekends are a lot (I know part of this is because I work two jobs but still). if I find a public library job that fits this, awesome, but I’m looking into academic/special libraries, if I’m looking at libraries at all (because in my experience the people who work 9-5 in public libraries are managers and I don’t want to be one).

    anyway, I’m hoping the lull in hearing back from anyone was because it was around the holidays for a majority of my search so far, but I think some has to do with my skills? I’m not applying to stuff I can’t make work with my current skillset (ie: not applying to places that require coding or an advanced degree other than my mlis) but.

    IDK, just need some good vibes. will be relying on aam even more than I usually do with job-hunting this time around.

    thank you. <3

    3. Librarian of Many Hats*

      It varies by library, but there are some public libraries with 9-5 positions that are supervisory but not the manager.

      I think the lull in replies is most likely because of the holidays and not your skill set. I’ve sent some very important emails this week (both work-related and personal) and didn’t get replies because people are either still out or trying to catch up.

      Anyway, sending you good vibes and good luck on your job search!

  152. Roxie Hart*

    What are all your opinions on managers who throw “f” and “s” bombs in conversions with their team? Not directing the words AT the employee, but swearing every few sentences.

    I find it very unprofessional but I see many middle-managers at my company do this.

    1. Sarah-tonin*

      I don’t think swearing at work is appropriate, no matter if someone is a manager or not. if it happens occasionally, nbd, but imo should not be constant.

    2. Three owls in a trench coat*

      Swearing at work on any level is unprofessional, but at the managerial level especially. It does happen occasionally by accident to the best of us, but it shouldn’t be a habit.

    3. Fikly*

      It’s a culture thing. Totally unprofessional at some workplaces, totally the norm at others.

      1. LQ*

        Strong agree. I don’t think you can say it’s always unprofessional. It’s like saying jeans are always unprofessional. No. In some cultures it would be entirely expected and out of the norm to not wear jeans. In some it would be darn near obscene to wear them. In some work cultures swearing is expected, in some it’s a scandal.

        It’s a little odd because I think of no swearing at work as a kind of old-school thing. No work from home, no jeans, no swearing, and no flexibility in scheduling. I wonder if at some point someone is going to write a think piece about how millennials are demanding to be allowed to use the entire dictionary’s worth of words at work instead of being limited. It would be a nice change to the millennials demand flexible schedules stories.

    4. LGC*

      I’ll provide both perspectives: I think it’s pretty contextual. Generally, I’m not bothered by profanity (I’m from New Jersey, so I’ve heard my share of profanity and then some), but I do think it’s extremely casual speech. I’d definitely think less of someone who used profanity in more formal conversations.

      That said, I’ve used profanity with my team in select situations – mostly in less formal situations or to defuse tension (like, if something is tense, I might say that the situation is something produced from a male bovine posterior). And I’ll limit it to employees that seem to be more comfortable with me using vulgarity. Basically, if I’m cursing, I’m not being that serious.

      Back to you – I do agree that it’s “unprofessional,” but I’m not overly bothered by it. I do think it undermines your message by making it sound less serious – and to wade into controversial territory, it’s like using a lot of slang language in conversation. I don’t think you need to use the Queen’s English at work (and honestly, people who try to do so come off as extremely stilted), but I think it’s good to stick to language standards. On the other hand…since a lot of middle managers at your company speak that way, maybe it’s just the way they work, and that’s what’s accepted at your company. tl;dr – I think your company communicates poorly, but I wouldn’t lose much sleep over it. Do you (that is, don’t swear at work), but don’t sweat it if you hear a middle manager drop an F-bomb on occasion.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t mind swearing personally, but at work I think it should be more of an exception than a usual thing. And never aimed at people to denigrate them.
      But, you know, who hasn’t had their computer crash in the middle of something important and hasn’t let an odd F-bomb explode, or had no better descriptive than saying something was a s-show? We’re all human.

  153. NaoNao*

    Late question:

    Twice now, recruiters have asked me to provide ‘references’ through a TERRIBLE system that demands 5 emails or phone numbers to **text** that person with a link to fill out a “survey about skills”. I honestly don’t have the email for 5 people that were my direct managers (or, to be frank, 5 managers I want talking about me) so I have had to fudge it twice with coworkers and my retail managers rather than my professional career, and I had a really hair-raising situation where I didn’t fully understand the ask the first time around and put in my then-manager’s email and he got really concerned and noted that employees weren’t allowed to give any kind of references and was I looking around?

    This system repeatedly “nags” the people’s email or phone number until they fill out a survey–that I can’t see the content of and have no control over. It’s **awful**.

    So there’s a couple issues with this:

    5 references?!!? and the application insists it MUST be managers and condescendingly tells you to “start with your most recent job and work backward”

    Many of my jobs in the last 10 years have managers I don’t want speaking to my work (for various reasons), people who’ve moved on or I don’t have any current information for, or, most commonly, managers who can’t give references at ALL due to company policies. I do have 2-3 references I can give, but not 5 “direct managers”

    Should I be giving feedback about the major drawbacks of this terrible system at some point after I’ve settled in at a new job that used this system (AFTER making me an offer and after I’d accepted, dang!)

    Thanks all.

    1. fposte*

      Wow, what a horrible system. Yes, if you can let them know when you’ve acquired a job after that process, you’d be doing everybody who writes or needs references a favor. Maybe even start with a curious “How much weight do you put on those, anyway? It was an unusual amount of work for references and I wondered how it brought more value than the conventional approach.” Or, if you get to know them well enough, “Have you ever been the recipient of these surveys? They’re incredibly annoying and I’m sure I’m not the only one who hurt relationships with references because of them. I really hate the idea that we’re losing or turning off good candidates because of turning the screws on their references–can we revisit this?”

      My guess is that it’s outsourceable and crunchable into metrics so it’s an easy sale, and because there are more numbers it feels like it’s more valuable to them even though it isn’t. Unfortunately, a conviction like that is hard to walk back from.

    2. LQ*

      Demanding 5 previous direct managers weirdly creates an incentive for job hopping.

      Also 5 people willing to respond immediately or get nagged via TEXT message? Nope. I have none of those. I don’t even know that I’d do it for myself.

  154. LilySparrow*

    Today is very out of sorts.
    My husband works in communications for the local chapter of a national nonprofit. He’s overworked and underpaid, but he likes the work, the mission, and the people, and the benefits are good.

    He’s been low-key sending out applications for a while because of the low pay, but not really under pressure. Thing is, he could easily be making twice as much in the same role in for-profit based on his current experience since taking this job. But he is adamant that he doesn’t want another communications role. He wants to focus on one specific niche of content production. And the jobs just aren’t there in his pay range.

    When he applies, sometimes he hears back, but it dries up when they ask his desired salary. Even when it’s just a modest bump, it’s too much. I think he’s just too senior for individual contributor roles in our area, and we have family ties here – neither of us want to move.

    There was a story in the news today about some big problems in the national org. Its going to have a serious negative impact on his chapter.

    We won’t see problems right away, but he’s concerned that they may have to lay him off before the year is out. I think that’s possible but not the most likely scenario – it’s probably something like a 30 percent chance.

    He is really down today, and I feel terrible. I have no idea what to tell him. He was okay with doing this not-dream job while he searched for that unicorn job, but he absolutely hates the idea of doing the same job on a larger scale for more money.

    I don’t really get it. I mean, I get why he wants the individual contributor role. But I don’t get why it would be so intolerable to do a similar communications role for a better paycheck, since he’s been pretty content with this job for 5 years now. Not thrilled, but not white-knuckle quiet desperation either. I have not said any of that to him today, of course. We’d had that conversation in the past, I’m not going to harp on it.

    I wish I could help but if he wants something I know he will ask. I just feel bad for him.

    1. Fikly*

      Why do you need to understand or get it? Understanding is not necessary to support someone.

      As for what to tell him, I’d start by asking him what kind of support he’d like. Would he like you to listen while he vents? Would he like sympathetic noises? Would he like problem solving? Some kind of combination? It’s ok to ask!

      1. LilySparrow*

        Wow.

        I would like to understand his thinking because he is my husband and I love him. Perhaps that concept is unfamiliar to you?

        I have asked what I can do, thank you for that amazing insight.

        Geez Louise.

    2. Kiwiii*

      There’s a huge difference between doing something you don’t care for at a place you really like and doing something you don’t care for at a place you’re don’t know anything about. It may be, for your husband, that the difference between the two outweighs better pay.

  155. Anonymongoose Dog*

    How do you handle it when colleagues get vague longer-term illnesses? My coworker Earl Grey has been ill most days for over a month now. I appreciate the kindness, compassion and respect to their privacy my boss and employer are showing them, but I’m feeling a bit lost as to the more day to day practical and human aspects of the situation.

    I’m still relatively new and learning my job. Some of the things I haven’t learned yet and Earl is the expert I’m supposed to be learning from. My senior colleague Chai and our boss knows some of their job but not all of it.

    Our boss has been giving us periodic updates and current projects are ok with coverage. I’m more worried about Earl as a person, and our longer term projects.

    I don’t know if Earl’s problem is terminal, and if so, that’s again, none of my business, but I still feel sorry this is happening. Normally, I’d send a card or something, but I don’t know Earl very well yet. Earl is a talented coworker and easy to work with, but also somewhat stoic and doesn’t share much, so not a sending cards or gifts kind of person.

    I don’t know how to plan my longer term projects, we have some joint projects coming up that I can’t fully do myself. Should I have a backup plan on case Earl ends up not being able to come back full time?

    I will be talking to my boss about our upcoming projects soon, but any tips for being the colleague in this situation (as opposed to manager), moral support, and kind thoughts to Earl appreciated.

    1. Fikly*

      It seems like there are two separate issues here, one your manager is handling very well, and one they are doing ok on but not great.

      They are handling the medical privacy issue super well! But they are mishandling some ofthe practical aspects. Earl may not know what the long term holds for them, but practically speaking, your team should be planning for the worst and hoping for the best. Which is to say, have a plan in place in case Earl has to leave for whatever reason, but also keep Earl in the loop as much as they want/as is possible. Don’t push them out, but have documentation and back up there so if Earl has to leave, even suddenly, long term projects don’t get hurt. I’d have this discussion first with your manager, not Earl, by the way, because really, it’s a management issue.

      As for Earl, as someone who has been in a similiar position (not terminal, but abruptly ill and putting a burden of work on my team and feeling guilty about it), I appreciated my team telling me that they wanted me to focus on my health and what I needed, and not to worry about work, and to just do what I could do.

      1. LQ*

        The manager may also have a plan in mind for what happens with long term projects that isn’t being shared right now (staff get moved around, projects get cut, hiring someone) in part because sharing it wouldn’t be appropriate.

        The manager wouldn’t say, if shit hits the fan and Earl comes back I can borrow Mint for a few months to come back and help with this work, because I might have talked to Mint’s manager but that’s not general knowledge at this point. I wouldn’t say, if Earl is still struggling and can’t come back in then next three weeks we will have to cut the Kettle Project, you might know that that’s the one that’s likely to end up being cut, but you wouldn’t want to put that out because the Kettle Project is the SVPs favorite project so if you say that now it’s going to get back to him and he’ll pitch a fit, but if it’s a month from now that SVP will likely have moved onto the next shiny object so it’ll be fine to quietly set Kettle Project aside. And you definitely wouldn’t say, I’m preparing all the paperwork for when Earl dies to bring someone else in.

        I do think that talking to the boss is a really good idea here. This is really the boss’s job to help manage, it’s great that you’re thinking about it and bringing it up is a good idea. But that the boss’s job to manage.

  156. Rexish*

    Seriously, what’s up with the job listings where you have no idea what the job is about? I know it’s not a new thing but feeling extra annoyed today. They have a title such as “project worker” or “Coordinator” and then a vague description of “you will work witin internal and external customers from offerinf to closing the delivery process”. The there is a list of personality traits you need such as organised, multi tasking and cool personality.

    1. LQ*

      I think that some of these roles are sort of administrative assistant but they used to be tied to a person, now these roles are tied to a project, process, purchases, or client. The work of a great admin assistant still needs to be done, but if you want to make that work look like something else because people don’t like that title and don’t like that role you point the work at something else and you aren’t being an assistant. You’re coordinating the process. So now you’re responsible for making sure the thing gets walked from start to finish, knowing all the people to talk to, making sure everything is filled out correctly, making sure everything that needs to be organized, scheduling meetings and setting up rooms and all the rest.

      We’ve been talking internally about some work that needs to be done and what doesn’t need to be done by people. We aren’t allowed to hire assistants at all, so the title that keeps coming up is coordinator. (Not sure if this is helpful but it’s how we are likely to end up hiring at least one coordinator soon that will say things like organized and work with customers, though NOT cool personality. Bleh.)

      1. Rexish*

        I can understand having fancier titles and complexly worded job description to make it sound better. I just dislike descriptions that doesn’t say anything. Let’s take the coordinator position. I happen to know what it entails due to connections and experience with the company. But for an applicant “working within internal and external customers from offering to closing” followed by expectation of cool personality and masters degree doesn’t tell me anyhting. Even if the positions are admin assistants I want to know does it involve invoicing, purchase orders, customer service, doing what you are told, hosting guests etc. I feel like just a tiny tibit of info would be a lot more helpful “you will assist thought the whole process from offering to closing. This includes but not limited to xxx (not porn, throwback to an old letter)”. End of rant.

  157. anonymoose*

    I’ve been balancing work and grad school for the last 7 months and it’s been pretty terrible. I love my job and grad school is legitimately required to advance in this field- to practice ABA, the only really long term growth options are to become a BCBA or BCaBA. Does anyone have any advice for mucking through the necessary evil of school when it’s a field you work in and could do the rest of your life but school just sucks? Thanks!

  158. Teacher Lady*

    Whoops, that wasn’t supposed to post! Let me try again.

    As a fellow educator preparing to go back to school (in addition to working full time), you have my sympathies. My biggest concern is having yet another thing on the proverbial front burner; I’ve cut back on school leadership and other school-related out-of-school time responsibilities, but of course we don’t get our jobs done during the day. A friend suggested that maybe I need to be more deliberate about scheduling my outside-of-school time, ex. study from 4-6 PM, cook and eat dinner from 6-7 PM, etc. (If this part of the balancing act isn’t as challenging for you as it is for me, I would LOVE some tips.)

    1. anonymoose*

      I need to try that I just get so aversive to the school thing that I procrastinate forever and that is a bad choice definitely don’t wait. My program is online and it’s really difficult to come home from work and commit myself to it, but I love the field I do it daily and thinks it’s amazing- school is just not as real life and that makes it hard to focus on.

  159. K2*

    I have an awkward situation. We just went through a hiring process and selected what we thought was the best fit. Unfortunately, it looks like after two weeks with us, she’s decided she wants to try another field. So… I want to contact our second choice (it was a close call, but the first one had more relevant experience in our field, a plus, but not a requirement) to see if she is still interested. How do I word the email without sounding awkward?

    1. Auntie Social*

      “Are you still available? Are you still interested?” Think of all the job-searching people here who would love to get that email saying that your first choice decided to join the circus.

      1. Fikly*

        Yeah, they will almost certainly be thrilled. Sure, there’s a vague, damn I was the second choice thing, but honestly? It’s a job they are almost certainly disappointed they didn’t get.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      100% Are you still interested? Are you still available?

      And if they ask what happened, be honest like you are here. “Our initial choice decided they wanted to change fields.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Adding, IF TRUE, “You were such a close second, that was tough to decide here.” Or I have gone with, “We have been so very fortunate to have such outstanding applicants.” But again, only if true.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      Had you already told the second choice she didn’t get it? If not, just act like would if offering her the position in the first place. If you already told her you went a different way and are now retracting that, just ask if she’s still available and still interested. If you want to get ahead of it and say the other person bowed out, you can, but you could also not bring up the why you’re now offering it to them after all unless they ask. Short and matter of fact will work.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I was just thinking if I were the 2nd choice, I might be suspicious the person bowed-out, maybe thinking it was something about the company or role?
        But if told the 1st choice changed mind due to a personal career change, or something like a move/commute, that’s different.

  160. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    Sigh. I just checked my work email, and as I suspected I will probably not be getting another contract extension, which means I’ll be out of work in two weeks. I’ve been repeatedly assured that this would not be the case but I have been taking those assurances with a healthy dose of salt. I suppose the only good thing is that I have been expecting it so it’s not exactly a surprise, and I have some home projects I’ve been wanting to do, but it still sucks.

    Yesterday I had a very revealing conversation with my immediate supervisor which showed that I have been coming across to others as negative and unhappy with this work, which I hadn’t realised. I am not happy about the uncertainty and sometimes I hate being outdoors in unpleasant weather, but I don’t actually dislike my job. My supervisor does not have any input on staffing decisions but it was definitely something to think about. I have been struggling with depression and self hatred all my life, but I didn’t realize how much this was coming out at work.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes when bosses tell a person what the problem is, they say so because they want the person to have a fair shot at the job. Is the person who told you someone who seems to be an advocate or is this person a Not Nice Person?

  162. LGC*

    It just went up! Normally it goes up Saturday morning East Coast time – she’ll normally put it up at 8 or 10 AM East Coast, so it’s on time.

    Last month was a bit weird since the posts were pre-scheduled – I think the open/FFAs were usually going up at midnight, which was super early (the opens usually go up at 11 AM Friday).

  163. Sandra Dee*

    Late to the party but would like a little feedback on a low stakes interview situation.

    I am currently interviewing to hire an intern, full time paid position. All communications with the candidate was from me, the hiring manager, communicating with the candidate, letting them know where to park, check in with security, etc. All communication has been via email. In the email, I let them know that he would also be interviewing with another, a peer of mine. This other manager will have no responsibility for the intern and limited interaction with them on a day to day basis. My email signature included my office and mobile numbers, as well as my title. I am female, the other manager is male, and it is fairly obvious by our names. Candidate is male.

    Day of interview, meeting time is 8:30am. It has been raining like crazy all morning, and traffic in our city is notoriously bad, and there are delays. I get it. Interview time arrives, no candidate, not phone call. Makes me wonder, but if you are not familiar with weekday traffic, I am understanding. About 10 min past interview time, security reaches out to my peer, letting him know the candidate has arrived. Hmmmm…….candidate has had zero communication with my peer, and will have zero reporting relationship with him. I greet the candidate in our lobby, and proceed with our interview. He meets with my peer, then I wrap things up. Candidate informs me that my peer has answered all of his questions, and has very few questions for me.

    I have interviewed 3 different candidates for this position. This person in question was the only one that did not send a thank you email. Not a big deal, but when I start putting some of the other things along side of this, it makes me think he will not be a good fit with our team.

    Am I being overly sensitive to his actions? Reading too much into them? If it was just one of these things, I would not think too much about it. More than one, is there room for concern?

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I hate to be that person who immediately thinks of sexism, but it does set a small yellow flag waving. How was the interview otherwise? What did your peer think of the candidate?

    2. NicoleK*

      You’re not being overly sensitive here. You’re the hiring manager and he left a bad impression. I wouldn’t move forward with him.

    3. Fikly*

      Beyond the is he a sexist issue, there’s the whole, do you want to hire someone who can’t figure out who the person in power is from all these obvious cues thing.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      So, you didn’t even meet with them?
      Don’t hire them.

      I’m not really clear why security sent him up to your coworker and not you and/or why it coworker didn’t just call you to tell you your appointment arrived? Maybe that was just a weird miscommunication, but I wouldn’t hire this candidate no matter what gender they were.

      1. valentine*

        The candidate told security they were there to see Sandra Dee’s male peer.

        Ask your peer if the candidate sent him a thank-you email.

    5. Sandra Dee*

      Update – neither of us received a thank you note.

      For clarification – I was talking with my peer when security altered him that the candidate had arrived. I then met them in the lobby and started the interview. My peer then joined approx 30 min later to speak with them, and then I wrapped up the interview.

      I was trying hard not to read sexism or bias into the candidate’s actions. I discussed with my boss as well, and she had the same impression that I did, so I dont feel too far off base. This candidate would have been our second choice, and therefore we have decided to move forward with our first choice.

    6. Observer*

      I wouldn’t touch this guy with a 10 foot pole.

      Coming late is one thing – not letting anyone know is another. Asking for your peer is also a real flag. I could think of a few different reasons why they might do this, and only one of them is sexism, but none of them speak well to their attitude. Not apologizing is another flag. As is getting all of their questions answered by the “other”, non-managing interviewer.

      I wouldn’t even bring up the thank you note. It’s just not important.

  164. Mimmy*

    Super late – I’ll ask again next Friday if need be.

    As I’ve mentioned, I’m looking for a new job. However, because I’m starting school shortly, I’m sticking with part-time because I don’t know how well I’d handle full-time work plus classes–the classes are all online but if it’s like my last online program, it’s a lot of work.

    Am I severely limiting myself by sticking to part-time? I’m part-time now but don’t want to stay in the job I’m in.

    1. Anonymongoose Dog*

      Depends on the field, but has not been a big deal for me.

      Maybe get a part time job at your school if you can find something related?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You are in school. Employers get it when people don’t work or only work PT while in school. I think you are fine here.
      Can you use school to somehow find a different part time job?

  165. Insert Witty Name Here*

    I’m late to the game, but hopefully there’s someone still reading. I’ve been at my job for 6 months and am the only younger woman on my team. People keep telling me that I’m quiet, but it’s random people from other departments whom I’ve never even spoken to. My team is petty and they gossip a lot- I stay out of it, but it might be isolating me. I feel out of place and like I don’t belong. Some guys talk to me, but it’s like they’re talking to me as if I were a child. (It seems condescending.) Is it just a bad fit? Should I do anything differently?

    1. NicoleK*

      Do you want to stay in that job? If not, I’d focus my energy on finding a new job. If you are interested in staying in the job or advancing in the company, then it doesn’t hurt to engage more with people outside your team.

      1. Insert Witty Name Here*

        They just make comments that I’m quiet. I’ll just be sitting at my desk working and they say I’m quiet. It’s not like they’re talking to me and I’m ignoring them or anything. I say good morning and try to be friendly.

  166. NicoleK*

    I’m posting late, but hopefully someone will respond. I’ve posted many times about my incompetent coworker, conflict avoidant boss, and mediocre other coworker. I finally landed a new job two months (on the same team) and will have fewer interactions with previous coworkers. However, I’m still asked to do some of my former tasks because the other two are incompetent and don’t have the aptitude.

    My replacement starts Monday. I know I shouldn’t say anything to her, but there’s a part of me that really wants to share with my replacement the realities of the job. The fact that she’ll get dumped on like I did, conflict avoidant boss is aware of issues with the other two, but nothing will change.

    My motivation: The sooner she figures things out, the faster I can extricate myself from my former tasks.

    1. Anonymongoose Dog*

      I personally have appreciated this in past jobs, but not everyone does. Maybe take them out to lunch, then share more once they are more settled, at least a few weeks in. Getting to know them a bit first might help you get a feel for if they’re the kind of person that would find this info useful.

      Alternatively, maybe offer to help train new person on your former tasks 1-1? Then you can influence them without meddling former boss etc.

      1. valentine*

        You can’t slag off your team like this. It’s not bad enough for you to leave altogether, or to push back on retaining the tasks, so, badmouthing your colleagues and work to the new person is doubly awful and highlights you as the immediate problem. There’s also a chance the new person gets the message that they need to avoid those tasks like the plague, and maybe they’re more assertive than you and it works for them.

        I don’t see why they can’t take on the whole job from the outset. If you’re under the same manager, things aren’t going to get much better and it’s possible they lied and you’re perpetually stuck with those tasks. Are they only conflict avoidant unless it’s you? If you have a new manager, appeal to them as far as not taking away from the new person and wanting to focus on your new role.

  167. Anonymongoose Dog*

    Thanks, our boss is an excellent planner, and I suspect she has a plan but can’t tell us all the details.

    It’s also awkward for me from a planning perspective as I don’t have a good idea of how long to be planning for. Planning is part of my job too, but I’ve never dealt with anything like this before. Maybe I need multiple scenarios for short, medium and long term.

    I don’t know how new employer handles this in general either. Previous employer hired temps for maternity leave for example, but new employer is a smaller company and might not be able to do that as easily.

    Earl has not been unusually sick historically, and I imagine my boss is trying to figure this out, too.

  168. Disco Janet*

    I had a pettily satisfying thing happen last night that I had to share. I’m a teacher, and my sister in law (husband’s sister) has decided she wants to teach as well…but she can’t pass the basic skills test to join the program. This didn’t shock me – she didn’t study, pressures me to practically write her essays for her (I’m an English teacher), and she’s a super permissive parent whose children have had severe behavior problems at school. So she and my mother in law have started bashing teachers in general, going on about how it’s so easy, anyone can do it, it’s ridiculous that she can’t teach without passing this test, the test doesn’t mean anything, there’s probably plenty of people she’s smarter than who have passed the test (my mother in law likes to say that one while side eyeing me), etc.

    I encouraged her to give substitute teaching a try and see what her experiences were like with that to see if it was really so easy. We saw my in-laws last night and oh man, the kids have basically been eating her alive, and she’s gotten in trouble with the school for not following basic safety rules (kindergartners can’t roam the halls by themselves, you can’t just release class early, etc.) I was outwardly sympathetic…but it felt like karma finally came around. I don’t think I’ll have to sit through any more spiels about how any idiot could do my job.

    2. Clisby*

      You mean she still has a substitute teaching job after letting kindergartners roam the halls by themselves? Hope none of them took it into their heads to wander out into the street.

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