open thread – January 31, 2020

by Alison Green on January 31, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Folklorist*

    How do I keep going when I know I want to quit? I’ve been at my job for just over five years now. I loved it at the beginning, but I’ve slowly found myself growing out of the position. Now my beloved boss is retiring. I share an office with an annoying coworker who might be soon poised to become my boss—but even the sound of her voice sends me into BEC mode. There are a few other responsibilities I could pick up and some other responsibilities that I hate that could be shed, but the essential job will still remain the same, and I’m so so bored with it.

    My work is slipping. I suddenly dread coming into work and have been finding excuses to come in late or “work from home” where I do minimal work. Yes, I know this just makes me look bad. It perpetuates distrust of people who work from home. It makes me look immature and careless. But…I am careless. I literally don’t care. My work has traditionally been excellent. It’s still really good. It’s just way too easy for me to phone it in and still get a good result. I’m meeting my deadlines, but barely, and doing the bare minimum to still fulfill my job function.

    How do I keep caring? I don’t want to be this person. My excellent boss is still my boss for a few more months and I don’t want to let him down. My annoying coworker, while annoying, is still essentially a good person who is kind of carrying me right now. I’ve started job searching and applying, reaching out to old contacts. I’ve been approached by some recruiters. But until that next job comes along (and I know it could be a while!) how do I keep my spirit and my productivity up?

    1. ursula*

      Did I black out and write this? I don’t have the annoying coworker who will become my boss but otherwise this is me.

      I have had a bit of success with trying to look at what’s on my plate and identifying where I have the opportunity to wrap something up and turn it into a positive line item on my CV – if you do a push in a certain area, can you get some great stats out of it? Can you successfully fix a process that isn’t working? What would you *like* to be able to say about your work, and how can you push through to some of those highlights so you can use them in job interviews? Mostly though, I just feel you.

      1. Miz Behaven*

        Do we work in the same office?! I am sorry to hear that others are in the same situation; it’s very stressful. All I have figured out is to try not to be too bothered by the annoyances (take lots of walks during the work day) and look for another opportunity elsewhere. Good luck to you both too!

    2. ThatGirl*

      First, I’d say take a few days off as soon as you can for your mental/emotional health and try to reset your attitude a little, and build in those breaks going forward if you can.

      Second, remember that you want a good reference, you want to be able to point at things you did well for your next job, you (potentially) want to keep these connections for future networking. It’s ok to not give it 100%, but I assume you would want to look back and be proud of what you did. Try to keep the long view in mind.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        + 1, especially the part about taking rest days – that’s so vitally important for our mental health and productivity. Unfortunately, some people don’t get enough time off from work, so they have to find other ways to decompress.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Think about working there as preparation for your next job. Think about how you want to be able to get a really good reference, and have prospective employers hear that you’re a hard worker who does a great job. Let your potential future job motivate you to do well at this one, so that instead of ending on a low note and having be a possible mark against you, it ends on a high note and is a mark in your favor. Maybe see if you can take on some of those new responsibilities (and shift some of those bad ones out) so you can learn a new skill or two that would be helpful in another job.

      1. NeonDreams*

        This is really good advice. I’m also in a situation where I dread work every day. My production metric went down significantly last month due to the culmination of everything that happened last year work wise. It’s better this month, but not what I’m capable of doing. My boss is supposed to do my yearly eval soon. I’m nervous about what she’ll say about the lower performance. but I’ll tell her-I’m burnt out to the core.

      2. True that*

        This is good advice and the kind I’m following in a sort-of-similar situation. I’ve done stellar work in my job of 5 years but many parts of my job never panned out the way they were supposed to and I’ve never felt there was enough work to really justify my position being full-time. In addition, no higher-ups want anything to change here, so I’m stuck following the same (kind of outdated) processes instead of driving any kind of change. I need to stay for a while because of the nice pay and benefits, and I want to be known as someone who does great work, but it turns out that when you don’t care about the job, things do seem to start falling through the cracks. So I’ve been doing professional development in my down time at work. I’ve been finishing my own work well before deadlines so a) I am still that stellar employee, and b) I carve out time this way to focus on things I need to know or get experience in at my future dream job. I even sometimes sign myself up for free professional webinars, so I *have* to finish my own work and not slack off, but then I get the reward of working on my skills for my next role.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      For me, knowing I was taking steps to leave helped me stick it out for a few months. But why not talk to your boss about an opportunity for growth now? Taking on new responsibilities (even as you’re looking for other jobs) may help you stay focused.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I agree about talking to the boss about this now – he may even be able to help OP transition to a new role in a different department if the coworker is in fact going to take over once he leaves (and, ugh – OP, I feel you on that note of dread – see my own question below). It may be that OP needs a change of scenery, but not necessarily one at a new company altogether.

        1. Folklorist*

          I’ve actually already talked to my boss about it! One of the reasons he’s my beloved boss is because I CAN come to him with this stuff. We came up with some things that I can change, but it won’t be enough of a change, even if they’re approved by the powers-that-be (who kind of suck and probably won’t accept them). My company is pretty small and there’s nothing else I’m interested in doing here.

    5. Pam Beesly*

      I feel this so hard, as I am in a similar situation. I wish I had advice for you but I don’t. I’ve been applying to other jobs because I have absolutely no motivation and can only see myself becoming more miserable as time goes by, even though I have great pay and benefits. Sometimes it’s just not worth it.

      1. Folklorist*

        Yeah, my benefits are great, but my pay sucks. I could make twice what I’m making elsewhere if I left, and have had our HR person tell my boss that I basically wasn’t worth a raise.

        1. Pam Beesly*

          Oof. I asked my boss for more responsibility and she said no. I hope you find a company that values you.

          1. Folklorist*

            She’s the director of all the HR stuff and ultimately approves salaries (I think). She’s angling to become CEO after our current guy steps down. She has supposed rankings of what fair market value for our positions and experience, so even though I presented industry proof showing that I was making $15k below what I should be, whatever her internal docs she has say differently. Basically, she didn’t want to approve money for a raise as a power trip and the CEO listened to her. My wonderful boss threatened to quit on my behalf if I didn’t get any sort of raise, so they gave me a small merit raise to shut us both up–but I’m still making much less than I should. I’ve stayed until now because the work was interesting and I was growing a lot, my boss is fantastic, and our medical benefits are stellar. Now that my boss is leaving, only one of those three things are true.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Oh wow – it sounds like there needs to be a compensation study performed at your company if you’re that far below market and her documentation doesn’t support it. Unfortunately, since she’s the head of HR, it doesn’t sound like she’d call for one. Ugh – you have my sympathies.

              1. Software Engineer*

                Well, from the CEO and HR head’s perspective, the salary they pay is just fine, as OP hasn’t quit yet.

              2. Pookie's Mom*

                I was in a similar situation working for a non profit in an HR-related area. I took the job at a low salary to re-enter the workforce after 14 years. I had increased responsibilities to a specialist level over time and had gotten some small bumps but my salary was well below market rates. Others in the organization had similar issues so a comp study was conducted by someone outside the organization; I was told that my pay was at the correct level within the organization. I had been widowed and could not live on the low pay but was not in a state to move on. During this time, our wonderful boss announced she was retiring in two years so the HR director who oversaw the comp study appointed himself our direct supervisor. This caused a long-time specialist to leave. When the replacement was hired, I was abruptly given an 18% raise. It seems that I had been classified the same as the other specialist but she had a lot more seniority so had been paid more. A qualified replacement could not be hired at what they paid me, much less at the entry level rate, so they had to hire at market rate Due to the nature of our work, I would see her pay from day one( and not be at all happy) so the only solution was to raise my pay. This and a couple of other incidents made me lose all respect for the new boss. I found another job.

    6. Ms. Cellophane*

      I told myself that my goal was to leave the current place with outstanding references and everything I do now needs to be done toward that goal. Suddenly I am interested in the work, I am doing additional training, have a good attitude, etc. It also helps that have an end date – even if it has to change later. It gives you something to look forward to and you’ll know that the bad stuff won’t last forever.

    7. CallofDewey*

      This has been me the past few months! One of the biggest things that was going on was some undiagnosed mental health issues. Once I got those taken care of and started therapy/meds, my motivation returned. So consider that- is there something else going on? I can’t say either way for you, but it’s worth reflecting on.

      1. Folklorist*

        Thanks for this! I’m actually up to date on my meds and therapy, etc., but I always feel like this is a question worth reflecting on. I think that one of the reasons I’m feeling this way is BECAUSE I’ve been doing so well with all of that stuff. I’m over my impostor syndrome and know that I can do a lot better in a bigger role and I’m really bored with what I’m doing. I now believe it when people tell me I’m too talented for this and have been taking a lot of steps lately to set myself up for better and more creative positions. For a long time, I thought that I could be happy keeping this role and phoning it in as long as I had interesting creative hobbies outside of this, but I don’t think I can.

    8. Jean*

      I’ve been there, big time.

      In my view, you don’t have to keep caring as long as you’re not creating a problem for anyone else. It’s OK to phone it in as long as your work is still good and you’re not doing anything that would compromise your personal integrity/values.

      Your company will replace you when you leave and things will go on as they always have, just without you there. Beyond the work you do for them, they don’t care about you, so why worry that you’re caring enough about them? Put the lion’s share of your effort and motivation into finding a new job where you will be happier. Best of luck in your search.

        1. Jean*

          You are so welcome. Best of luck to you as well. There is a better job out there for you. I know searching can be demoralizing, but in the end, when you’re in a happier spot, it will be worth it.

    9. Dasein9*

      The above advice is all excellent! The only thing I’d add is to loop in your team: the people who root for you most. Good friends and even a counselor or therapist, if we have one, can help us stay accountable to our job-seeking projects.

    10. RestResetRule*

      You can’t keep caring. Once the fire dies, that’s it in my experience. Applying is good but in terms of keeping your morale up, that’s a mystery to me. Maybe just keep working on your skills or try to learn new ones in your spare time that could help you in anew job.

    11. MissGirl*

      Give yourself a deadline to be out. If you can say, I will be gone in one year or six months, it can make getting through so much easier. Bob’s a tool, so what, in six months he’ll be someone else’s tool.

      It’ll also motivate your job search. You’ll start applying more because you’ve only got a certain amount of time. You’ll perform better, knowing this is the last impression they’ll have of you.

      It’s also helps you to think out of the box. Let’s say nine months goes by and no job is on the horizon. You might start rethinking your industry, your career, or your approach. It’ll keep you from doing the same thing with the same results for years.

      I did this five years ago. One day I realized I was done at my job and needed to get out. I started applying to jobs, researching different career paths, and asking people their experiences. I ended up completely changing careers but most people won’t have to be so drastic.

    12. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      This is so me. My job is going to change soon because I threatened to quit but I worry it’ll be more of the same. I’m in a holding pattern – my replacement won’t be ready for another week and I’m just hanging on

    13. Workerbee*

      Well, this may not be the best advice…

      This was me, last year. I didn’t realize at first that my feelings of hating to get up for work, not talking as much to colleagues, and working far more at home than before were because I was getting burned out–when before I thought I’d be a lifer!–but once I did, I made the decision to go full-force into job search, which paid off.

      Here’s my what-to-do-in-the-meantime experience:

      I’d built up capital in that company as an engaging person who gets things done. Good; I used that. I still was able to produce excellent (or excellent-seeming) work, but the difference was that I didn’t put in all the effort and caring on the INSIDE that I’d used to. (It definitely made me think about all the effort & caring I’d poured into previous work things where perhaps I could have reserved some of that for self-care!) And I realized that yeah, sometimes I could get by doing the bare minimum. I made sure to act appropriately and enthusiastically while on the inside it was the thought that one day I’d be out of that place that kept me going.

      You’re doing all you can, and you know how not to detonate the bridge you’re standing on, so I feel confident you’ll get through this without too much angst. It’s tough while you’re in the middle of it, but then you’ll be free!

      1. Folklorist*

        I really like this, thanks! And you’re right, I’ve definitely put in tons of care in the past when I didn’t necessarily need to. I’ve also been super-busy and overwhelmed in my personal life for…months, if not years, now. Every time I think I’m going to get a break in that, something else happens. I think I’m going to follow your advice and the advice of others–after we shuffle out this one project next week, I’m going to take a long weekend and decompress hard-core. Then put everything into my job search and use the knowledge that I’ll be out of there to help buoy my spirits and fake it until I’m out–but also reserve some care for myself. I don’t have to be 110% all the time. Accepting that will help me a lot in the long term.

    14. ANON.*

      My god – I feel like I could’ve written this! I’m also feeling so…careless, and I can tell some work is slipping. Not a lot, but some. I’m not proud about it, but I haven’t found a way to keep myself engaged with the work anymore.

      I think a new job is likely the only answer, but I’m worried about benefits. I currently have a great amount of PTO accrued at my current job, and a fair amount of days off tentatively planned for this summer. If I find a new job sometime in the coming months, it’s likely I won’t be able to take that much time off so soon after my start date.

      So I think my only answer is to hold out in my current job until after the summer???

      1. lasslisa*

        A lot of places will let you take an unpaid vacation early if you let them know it’s already planned before you accept the offer. It just needs to be part of your offer negotiations.

    16. butters*

      I don’t have any advice but thank you for sharing, I feel like I could have written this and it’s comforting to know that others out there feel the same way.

      1. Folklorist*

        Same! I hate that I’ve touched a nerve in so many people, and so many people are in the same position–but it’s nice to know I’m not alone.

    17. Jules the 3rd*

      Check whether there’s any training / education you can do, either tied to improving current tasks, or to prepare you for a new role. Sometimes breaking the routine can help get you through.

    18. NaoNao*

      Wow, this was me a year ago-ish. I was desperate! My coping strategies:

      Passion and focus outside of work, including great self care and lots of treats and perks.

      Taking advantage (in a good way) of all the company had to offer. I used the on site gym. I used my Vision Benefit to purchase new glasses for the first time in 7 years. I looked into a nanodegree and I took Linked In learning using the company’s license (with approval!). I set stretch goals and focused on pushing them through (like doing a 360 immersive video in training products). I used the company discount (again, with approval).

      I focused on making my resume the best it could be and cold-emailing CEOs of small start ups and other people I thought might be interested. I applied for jobs every week.

      Ultimately, I made a jump to a job that didn’t work out BUT I’m in a third job that is so much better now.

    20. Emilitron*

      Congrats on knowing that it’s time to leave. One thing that helped me in a similar situation was starting to write up my projects as if I was about to be gone. It was a task that needed doing (status reports, etc) and sometimes that helped me identify tasks that I could complete in a week or so and make actual progress. But also helped me think about what my job really was and wasn’t, and what aspects of my job were really replaceable (i.e. feel no guilt at walking right out the door when I get another offer) but also what I was doing that is really unique to me (and made me less miserable about my drooping contributions). Best of all, it was a way to harness that vindictive energy (oh yeah? you are terrible! Guess what, I’m totally working on leaving, and I can’t tell you so, but let me go work on my succession binder)

      1. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

        I have sooo been there! Sending sympathies.

        Things that have helped me in the past when dealing with this kind of situation:
        1. Leave work at work as much as possible. If you’re coming in late, stay long enough to make up the time, if required by your job/industry, but don’t leave a second later than you need to.
        2. Get out of the office sometimes for lunch, coffee, or even just a five minute walk around the building as your schedule/location allows,so you’re not staring at your desk alllllll day.

        Work from a library or coffee shop next time you work from home, or work in a conference room if one is available. Sometimes a change of scenery can shake up the dread.

        3.Find something non work related that you can look forward to and feel a sense of accomplishment over. Start a craft project and work on it a little every day after work, maybe sign up for a class, learn an instrument, try new recipes, watch a new movie every week, whatever works for you that you like.

        4. Listen to audiobooks or podcasts.in your commute. I find it gives me something to look forward to and takes a little dread out of going to work in the morning and a distraction/transition to leaving work. I only listen to audiobooks in the car, so I can’t find out what happens unless I get in the car.
        5. Start a casual job search. Even if I don’t want to leave or do not have the energy for full job searching, just scanning listings to see what’s out there and which listings jump out at me makes me feel less trapped.

    21. CaVanaMana*

      I was suffering from this sense of needing to care and this is what I told myself and it helped:

      Free yourself. You do not need to care about work. You need to do your work. Your feelings about it don’t need to be anyone’s business. It doesn’t matter how many motivational emails, meetings and posters exist, and there is no matter in how many interactions you have to suffer through where it feels like the colleague or a boss type genuinely has a sense of purpose from the work you do. That’s not your headspace. You do not need to care and you don’t need to understand where they’re coming from to do the job even if you were once there yourself. It doesn’t matter.

      If you feel like some sense of caring is what you need to stay motivated, think outside the job itself. What do you care about? What’s your goal? What’s your reason for being there? Ultimately when you have a job, you’re making a choice to be there and as with all choices, it’s your responsibility to know why you made that choice. I mean, otherwise, you’re just reacting. You’re probably better than an ameoba just reacting to stimuli or at least, it feels better as a human to think so. Can you take those things and break your work down moment by moment so you can do while your there?

      Let go when you’re not working. Of course, time off is super important. If you can’t get any vacation, when it starts to drain you, can you take an extra 5-15 mins a few times throughout the day? Outside? Never the break room. Get away from the corporate noise.

      For me, I like having work friends. Do you have any work friends? Not like, we get along because we are in the same building types but people who you can be yourself with and people who are themselves with you? Take 5 mins and chat about something totally not work related, or make fun of that last email. A real laugh at the nonsense goes a long way, or if that’s not your jam grab a few minutes to do whatever makes you feel less like a company robot and more like you. After only a couple minutes come back to the tasks at hand. That way you’re at 100% for most of the day rather than struggling to be at 50% all day and the boss woman? I’m sure she prefers that.

  2. Stephen!*

    First of all, let me say a huge thank you to everyone who responded to my question about my creepy coworker last week. I was overwhelmed  (in a good way!) by all the comments and they were so incredibly helpful.

    I work in a different city than my supervisor. After weighing all the options, I called to talk him. I can’t tell you all the turmoil and anxiety I went through over the weekend, wondering if he would believe me, if he would take it seriously and so on… but after relating the first incident, his response was “What?!? Noooooo. Not appropriate.” And throughout the rest of the conversation, “that is not appropriate,” “that is not okay,” and “no” were gratifyingly common.

    There is a formal reporting process that has to be followed and I’m still anxious about that and any fallout that may occur, but in the meantime, no more working with Creepy Coworker!

    *And for some bonus retroactive ickiness- after the first incident, as we were driving back to town, he pointed out a property owned by a man who has been in the news for his reprehensible treatment of women. At the time I didn’t think about it, and from any other co-worker it wouldn’t register on my creep-o-meter, but from Creepy McCreeperson? Yuck.

    1. ursula*

      I’m so glad you did this and were taken seriously! Remember that even if there is fallout, it’s because of other people having skewed priorities – you are 100% in the right here.

        1. I'm that person*

          I am glad that you reported him to your boss. It seemed to me that he was grooming you, starting out with things that he could pretend to be offended about if you “took them the wrong way” and then escalating so that we he finally got physical he could claim that “you wanted it” because you never said no before.

    3. FormerFirstTimer*

      I’m so glad you updated us! Your supervisor sounds like he has a decent head on his shoulders. Or at least watches the news and knows the kind of fallout this could bring if not handled quickly.

    4. Three owls in a trench coat*

      I am so glad you were able to talk to your supervisor about this and that he responded by supporting and believing you. It’s awful you had to deal with all those super creepy comments but yay for no more working with Creepy Coworker!

      Like Ursula said, you did nothing wrong here, in fact you did the right thing by making your supervisor aware of it. I hope this all gets resolved and things start getting better for you.

    5. Workerbee*

      Bravo! It was a difficult decision and I hope you can breathe more deeply now. I know there’s still that process to come, but you 100% did nothing wrong AND you aren’t going it alone anymore. I am glad you were listened to and actions will be taken. The persons who are paid to handle the brunt of this can earn that part of their paycheck. :)

      Your safety is also 100% more important than any feelings Creepazoid may have about being reported, which are probably comprised of anger at being called on his behavior. That’s not yours to manage at all. He had a choice each time and he deliberately chose the wrong one. He was counting on you not saying or doing anything. HE has no problem being creepy, remember, and not being held accountable for his actions, and for putting you into awkward or even dangerous situations. Whereas you stopped an escalating situation from potentially becoming worse, which is hard to do with society so adamant that people stay nice & shut up, so again–bravo.

      I hope you get some good relaxing/healing time this weekend.

    6. Buttons*

      *hugs* I am so proud of you for going to your boss and I am so happy that he responded the way he did!!! YEAH! I know the reporting process and the aftermath are scary, that is what keeps so many women from doing anything. Good luck, and please keep us posted.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I looked at all. the. comments. and I said to myself, ” OP has to know that they are right on target here.”
      I am so glad that you talked to your boss and double glad the boss was so supportive.

      Thanks for this follow up, it’s good to know that you went forward with this one. I am sure you had a very restless weekend, it’s not easy doing this stuff, worse yet there is more than one reason why it’s not easy. Unfortunately, this was not a situation that would get better on it’s own, leaving you not much choice.

    8. Quinalla*

      So glad your supervisor’s response was what it should be, hope it continues to go well as the formal process unfolds!

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      I came back this week to see if you’d updated…

      VERY glad you were able to take this step and get a good first reaction. As others have said, if there’s push back, it’s on Creepy Coworker. You didn’t get him in trouble, he got himself in trouble.

    12. It's business time*

      Great update, it is good that you were heard by your manager and action is being taken!

      SSDGM!

    13. AnonEMoose*

      I missed the post last week – I’m so glad you went to your supervisor, and that he took you seriously and supported you. Please keep us posted to the extent you can!

  3. Racecar*

    Should I withdraw from this internal job?

    6 months ago I applied for an internal role. At the time that job had been open for 5 months already (hard to find skills). I have 9 of the 10 skills.

    Original manager was going to meet with me, but then it went to a new manager “Devon”. I knew both managers pretty well.

    I caught up with Devon about 2 weeks after the transition and he seemed annoyed I asked so I dropped it.

    A few months later, I sent a follow up asking for next steps or a timeline. Radio silence.

    In the meantime Devon and his team have been asking me for a lot a help doing the work this role would be in charge of. Recently I have pulled way back on helping him or his team since its been such a one way street for 4+ months now.

    Honestly I am feeling pretty negative about Devon. Being rejected for a role is fine, but being ignored for an internal role is not especially since he clearly needed my expertise.

    I also get the feeling I am a last resort. That if their plans to find the unicorn aren’t met by XX months they will settle on me. I resent that, but its also conjecture based on circumstantial evidence due to them not actually talking to me.

    On the other hand, this is a great role with growth potential and great portability. But if I feel this negative about it already, I don’t even know how I would be able to ask about the lack of communication without coming across defensively. Withdrawing from the role also feels passive aggressive somehow.

    Help!

    1. Holy Moley*

      Sounds like they are trying to get by with having you do the work without filling the position and paying you. I would definitely pull away. Six months is a long time especially for an internal application. They should compensate you fairly for the work you are performing especially if you are assisting his team outside of your normal duties.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Your first sentence was my immediate thought – they’re not in a hurry to fill the role because OP’s already doing it for free.

    2. CL Cox*

      Have you reached out to HR? You may not be getting answers form the managers because they honestly don’t know.

    3. IL JimP*

      Could it just be Devon is getting up to speed as the new manager? It could be a low priority and probably hasn’t responded because they don’t know the answer yet. Obviously it would be better to say they don’t know but in my experience people generally have a hard time admitting that.

      1. Krabby*

        People who have a hard time admitting they don’t know something, or who maintain radio silence after multiple attempts to start a conversation, usually aren’t people you want to work for.

        2. Leela*

          True, it’s also possible that he’s been asked not to mention anything until whoever needs to has made their decision, they could be on vacation and Devon is freaking out not getting answers too!

    4. Krabby*

      It sounds like this Devon guy will be awful to work for, but it might be worthwhile to still take the job and then move on after a year if it’s a big step in the right direction for you. If that’s the case, then I wouldn’t withdraw your candidacy.

      However, definitely pull way back on helping, and if you get asked why, just say, “Oh, I assumed since I hadn’t been contacted for an interview for X role yet that I’m no longer in the running. If you don’t think I’m a good fit, then I really want to focus on [different job area] so that I can build my skills there.”

    6. RecoveringSWO*

      How is your actual manager? If she’s any good, I would ask her for support ASAP and tell her about Devon’s requests regardless. She should know that another manager is trying to give you excessive tasking in case it impacts your current work and to stand up for you if Devon suggests that you’re not cooperative/a team player. She would be the ideal person to tell him that he needs to sh*t or get off the pot when it comes to hiring you because she either needs to post your position for hiring and get it filled or trust that you have time to work on your primary duties.

      1. Racecar*

        My own boss is very non confrontational so usually caves to the “not a team player” complaints.

        He has also not been letting me do as much travel etc. citing this other app and justifying it as “whats the value if you leave”.

        1. RecoveringSWO*

          Ugh, that stinks. That changes the Devon calculation a little bit for me–I wouldn’t withdraw the application because it’s not like your current boss is great. I’d do some job searching but not be afraid to take the internal role and bounce with new skills and experience later.

        2. Krabby*

          I take back my earlier comment. If your current boss is holding you back because of the application, I’d go to HR for an update or withdraw your candidacy. Then if they ask, be honest, “I couldn’t afford to miss out on professional opportunities in my current role if I wasn’t hearing anything about this opportunity. When I followed up with Devon for any information, I didn’t hear anything back, so I assumed I was no longer in the running anyway.”

          But honestly, maybe it’s just time to leave. This sounds like a BS situation you’ve been put in.

    7. disconnect*

      Are your options limited to “tell them you want to continue” or “tell them you want to withdraw”? Because option C is just dropping the rope. If they come back to you and say “hey we’re interested now”, you can reassess your own interest at that time. But for right now, I’d mentally move on from this role, direct future inquiries from Devon to your boss and tell your boss what you’re doing (“I’m finding that doing this work for Devon is interfering with my other deliverables; what should I prioritize?”), and polish up my resume and network. There are a lot of roles at a lot of companies where you don’t have to walk on eggshells to avoid irritating anyone but also make sure that you’re heard. And until you get one, assume nothing’s going to happen here and act accordingly.

    8. RC Rascal*

      I would ask your current manager to help draw some boundaries around your time. Devon sounds like he is using you; I agree. Your duties at your current role need to come first. I would go to your current manager and ask for help prioritizing your tasks. Explain how you have projects for your role, and then Devon projects. (Ideally, Devon projects are keeping you from diving more deeply into your projects, or from starting work on something currently in the parking lot. If not, figure out something else you could be working on for your boss instead of for Devon with that time.) Explain to boss. If boss has any sophistication about this, they will help you prioritize and tell Devon he can’t have your time while you are in current role. Boundaries are your friend.

  4. Diahann Carroll*

    TLDR: I need some scripts for how to tell my boss that I don’t want my coworker to become my new manager next year.

    Last week, my manager confirmed for me that he will be leaving his position sometime next year (he doesn’t know exactly when yet, just that it’s definitely for sure now next year – he was supposed to have left late last year, but ended up getting an extension). This confirmation came after he casually asked me where I saw myself in five years, and I stated I wanted to still be doing something similar to what I’m currently doing now, just on a larger scale – basically, becoming my team’s content SME, which I kind of already am.

    I also told him I had no desire to really manage people – projects, yes. But now I’m concerned about what will happen once he moves on from us. My coworker works very closely to him because she implements the stuff he and I come up with – basically, she does the technical piece of our job while I focus on the creative. I also spend more time working on projects with my dotted line manager’s team, so my manager and I only chat maybe once a week if that (our weekly meeting was cancelled today because he had a crisis come up with another team he had to step in and help solve).

    Anyway, my coworker is good at her job – if not a little slow to get things done – but she’s also very territorial over her work, which manager has expressed some visible frustration with. She’s also incredibly negative all the time. She sits in meetings and criticizes everyone’s ideas (except for mine – she’s usually in agreement with me and if she isn’t to start with, once I make my case, she comes around), including our manager’s, and other people on our larger team have already expressed annoyance with her and how she interacts with them (she’s been called The Human Eeyore more than once).

    I can deal with coworker in small doses – she constantly interrupts people when talking, spends upwards of 30 minutes arguing points no one makes during meetings, will call you and drag out the conversation for more than an hour while repeating the same talking points over and over again – I can’t deal with this managing me.

    I’m a very blunt person, and I don’t often choose my words nicely when telling people about themselves, even at work, so I need some appropriate words to get this across to my manager that if he and grandboss are beginning the succession planning conversation for his role, they need to either hire someone external to take over (which will be extremely difficult – we barely have internal people who have the level of institutional knowledge my manager has, let alone trying to find that in an outsider) or grandboss needs to be our direct manager. If they promote her up to take his role, I will either transfer to another team internally or leave the company altogether. The latter would be awful since I really love this company – the pay is great, my benefits are the best I’ve had yet, and I get to work from home full time. It will be very hard to find something else this good someplace else.

    1. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Do you have the sense that she is in line to be your manager, or are you just making sure to cover all your bases? Does the company tend to promote internally only?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Well, we’re on a small team within a larger one. Recently, the manager of the larger team, who was also me and coworker’s former direct manager, transferred internally to another department. One of her direct reports was promoted up to her role by grandboss, which made sense – former boss had been grooming her for about 8 years to take over once she eventually left.

        I just wanted to have this conversation in the event that grandboss decided to just move one of us up like he did on the larger team – I definitely don’t want my manager’s job, but I also do not want to report to my coworker for the aforementioned reasons, and I want grandboss to be aware of that.

    2. Fibchopkin*

      Hmmm, you say you are normally a very blunt person, so I’m not sure why this is the one situation where you would not be. It seems to me that this particularly requires a direct, honest approach. I would go to your current manager (not your grandboss yet, unless you have a particularly close relationship) and bluntly state, “I love working here, I’m sad to think of you leaving, and I want to be clear that I want to stay here doing creative work and I don’t want to throw my hat in the ring for your position after you’re gone, but I want to be equally clear that if Eeyore is put in place as my manager, I will have to find work elsewhere- either in another internal team, or with another organization.” Is there a reason you wouldn’t want to be direct with your manager about this?

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yeah, I’m thinking that the OP’s direct style of communication is why she doesn’t have as many issues with this coworker as everyone else does.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, I don’t have as much of a problem with her as others because a) I work remotely, so I don’t have to see or talk to her every day, b) I limit my phone conversations with her to once every couple of weeks (she tries to call more than that sometimes, and I just let our chat system ring until she hangs up) and our messaging to a couple of times a week – if she’s not coming to me with a work request, I tend to just act like I don’t see the message, and c) I just shut her down if I think she’s being ridiculous about something and tell our manager he needs to be the tie-breaker if we’re in a stalemate (which doesn’t happen often admittedly – like I said, she and I tend to be more aligned in our way of thinking these days).

          The reason I wanted scripts was because I can be too honest, and I didn’t want to come off sounding negative myself – she’s not a bad person, she just has zero emotional intelligence and she’s paranoid because of some issues she’s had in previous workplaces (she’s been laid off three times in the last 10 years or so) and she’s letting those bad experiences seep into her interactions with people at this company.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I really like the script from @Fibchopkin.

        I suggest prefacing with the question, “What is the company thinking in terms of filling the manager position? As I said before, I’d like to continue to grow to be a SME and project manager, so I’m not interested, but I obviously have a vested interest in learning more about the future for the role and how the company is looking to fill it.”

        Then, use the script above if they hint/suggest they would consider your coworker for the role.

        1. ten-four*

          This one has my vote – it sounds like there’s a pretty good chance that she won’t be considered. A person who has earned the nickname “The Human Eeyore” does not sound like management material! So it’s quite possible that you won’t HAVE to go in with all guns blazing.

          You could follow up on the question Analytic Tree Hugger posed with “do you have any sense of whether Human Eeyore is a possibility?” And if you get a yes, then you can pivot to the more blunt script.

          But I think there’s a solid chance that your boss will tell you she’s not under consideration.

          1. Avasarala*

            Agreed, I would be very surprised if they promoted The Human Eeyore just because she was there, when she seems to be very antagonistic and difficult to work with.

      3. KayDeeAye*

        I was in a very similar situation years ago. My boss was retiring, and a coworker (a.k.a. “AlienPod”) who was completely and totally unsuited to overseeing humans or, for that matter, any carbon-based lifeform, wanted the job. I was *terrified*. What if AlienPod’s oh, so obvious shortcomings weren’t obvious to people who didn’t have to work with him? Working with someone with those shortcomings was often fairly difficult; working for him would have been a professional nightmare.

        I elected not to talk to RetiringBoss because…well, because he was kind of a twerp, really. Also he would have talked to other people about my concerns, possibly even to AlienPod. Also he was only going through the motions his last 12 months as team supervisor anyway.

        So I actually talked to one of our officers, who was not only on the search committee but was also someone I’d known for a long time. I can’t remember exactly what I said, but it was something along the lines of, “I have, ummmmm, come concerns about AlienPod being promoted.” It was kind of a risky move, but I couldn’t think of what else to do, and I was at least fairly confident that he’d keep whatever I said confidential.

        Anyway, what he said was, “Kay, you really don’t have to worry about that. Really.” And I didn’t. They gave the job to someone else, and it turned out OK. I don’t know if this will work out as well for you, Diahann, but it’s something to think about.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Oh, I hope it does! Lol. I really think grandboss needs to manage us and be done with it.

        2. nym*

          I have been on the other side of that one – my AlienPod’s shortcomings were recognized by people who did not have direct oversight of her or her projects, and hooboy were they recognized by subordinates. She was extremely good at kissing up and kicking back; she was a bully to junior staff, and baffled grandboss (her direct supervisor) with baloney. We had her for about eight months. When she announced she was leaving, six of us (out of 20) quietly ended our job searches, because working with her WAS a hill to die on, even though we didn’t want to go somewhere else.

          When grandboss had to clean up the mess left behind, because we couldn’t fill the position right away (AlienPod broke SO MUCH of our process in those eight months), the cracks became slowly more obvious to her. We’re still trying to fix the mess but now all of us are engaged and invested. I guess my summary is, it doesn’t always work out right away but sometimes you get there in the end! And sometimes it’s worth taking a stand for the good of the work and your mental health.

    3. Workerbee*

      Oof. I feel you!

      Perhaps listing out the type of qualifications–both hard & soft skills–that a person needs in that management role to ensure continued success in the team and its deliverables will help show your manager that it’s worth looking externally? Or they will see that it’s much less hassle and better overall to just have the grandboss be the direct manager.

      But if asked directly what you think of your coworker becoming the manager, then laying out dispassionately why this would be an unfortunate solution may be what you need to do. You of course would make it clear that you have the best interests of the company in mind. I do wonder if your manager was hoping you’d magically decide that you would like to take on the role yourself. :/

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I don’t know. He started off the conversation in a very weird way by asking what I thought of her and our working relationship. I told him that our working relationship was fine – she and I don’t really interact that much because we do two totally different things, but when we do have to come together for something, we do it well and I have no problems with her. He then started talking about how professional I am and that he’s heard nothing but good things about me from people we work with, so I admit – it did make me think he was asking because someone (or maybe more than one someone) said something to him about her and he was trying to see if I’d corroborate the complaint.

        But yes, I think you’re right that I should approach this as part of a broader conversation in general and not as a one off. Doing it the latter way will make this a bigger deal than I want it to be.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          So this is your spring board to re-enter the conversation.

          “Boss I have been thinking about our conversation the other day. I do realize that your position will be open and that I have indicated I am not interested in the position. I am concerned about the next person who comes into your position. I think that characteristics X, Y and Z are important for this position. You have asked me what I thought of Jane and I want to go on record as saying I do not think she will be a good fit for the job.” Then you can elaborate or not. Probably he will ask you questions, which I’d recommend answering as fully as possible, since you are saying he is a good boss.

          I hope I can encourage you, OP, that your words have weight. And it could very well be that your words have even more weight because you are not competing for this position. You have no stake here, except you have to work with the New Boss.
          I have used a similar big picture approach and bosses do listen. You have credibility built up from your years of good work and being a rock solid employee. And one last point of persuasion, he has already asked you. He wants to know what you think. So it’s just a matter of finding a professional sounding way of describing what you see as not working out in the long run. It seems like you have a pretty good start on that description from what you wrote here.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Thanks. Just one small point – neither I nor my coworker has been with the company long (I’m coming up on nine months, and she’s almost at seven) and our manager has only been our direct manager for a few months. But yeah, I do have a bit of a lead-in here since he did ask my opinion earlier, so it isn’t wildly out of line for me to bring it back up.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              And there is your easy honorable inoffensive way out of the tile Emma. Neither of you has been there very long. Put it that you think this job needs to have someone who has been brought in from the outside with extensive management experience in this particular field. The company needs someone with more experience than either of you have. It’s not criticizing anyone! And it’s leaving you an option to apply for the job in the future if you want it in three years.

    4. Nope, not today*

      I would start off by having a broader conversation about it, rather than saying ‘if she becomes my manager I’ll be looking to leave”! Can you just sit down with him and ask what direction they are thinking about taking with the transition – have decisions been made, or what his sense is of who will move into his role? If he thinks its possible she will become your manager you can let him know that’s not ideal for you, without giving an ultimatum.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I like this approach – I’ll ask him the questions you mentioned here because that really gets to the crux of what I want to know.

        1. valentine*

          Even if he gets to pick his replacement, you’ll need to play the long game. Would it make sense to ask to make the dotted-line manager your new manager, even now, so you’re set if this guy does leave?

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            No, that wouldn’t make sense. While I work more with my dotted line manager’s team, she’s based in another office in another country and doesn’t really know about what I do for my direct team. I also do something totally different than her direct reports, so I’d essentially be adding more work onto her plate, which grandboss doesn’t want (he’s trying to remove responsibilities from her because her predecessor took on entirely too much stuff that was outside of the course of what she should have been doing, and now she’s doing the same).

    5. NW Mossy*

      Based on what you’ve laid out here, I think you’re a lot more worried about this co-worker getting the job than you should be.

      Your boss isn’t blind and deaf. He’s already showing you that she’s got behaviors that he finds frustrating in her current individual contributor role, and “territorial” and “negative” are even less desirable in a manager. He’s likely well aware of her Eeyore reputation too, because that kind of stuff tends to be glaringly obvious. Just because he (professionally) withholds his opinion of her when talking to you doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have one or that he looks on her favorably for this sort of promotion. From the manager’s side, trust me: it’s our job to know our employees’ strengths and weaknesses, and good results as an individual contributor do not themselves make an effective manager.

      I’d stake money that your boss has already told his boss that a) you’re not interested in taking over and b) your co-worker isn’t the right fit. Their discussions now are likely about who else in the organization might be a fit to take over, and they may even be sounding those folks out already. Those other candidates may not have the institutional knowledge your current boss does, but that’s often not a deal-breaker for a manager when the team they’re leading has SMEs on it.

      1. foolofgrace*

        ‘“territorial” and “negative” are even less desirable in a manager. He’s likely well aware of her Eeyore reputation too…’

        The manager might not care all that much about what will happen after he’s gone.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Oh, he cares. He’s told me several times that he loves this team and it’s his favorite job he’s ever had largely because he got to set the direction for where it was going to go – he’s never had that opportunity before. He really wants us to do big things this year so he can leave us in a good spot so that whoever comes onboard as our manager won’t be able to undo all the work he’s done.

  5. Combinatorialist*

    How much focused technical work do people do a day? Lately, I haven’t had meetings (which is great) but I’m finding a hard time focusing on challenging technical work for 8 hours a day. Is this normal? Any tips for staying focused during the last 2-4 hours where my brain is just total mush?

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      I usually work on things that require more brainpower earlier in the day and handle easier/simpler tasks in the afternoon. But a short break to reset might be helpful, whatever that looks like for you- lap around the building, coffee/snack, etc.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yes, you’re human. You get tired. Intense concentration is work, and you can’t keep doing the same kind of work for 8 hours straight without losing capacity.

        There’s always some kind of routine maintenance or “cleanup” type tasks in any job. When your high-level thinking is tired, those are the things that help you stay productive without falling into a slump.

        Most folks either block their days to use their best concentration time, or do “intervals” of focused work interspersed with rote work.

        Physical breaks to move around help, too.

    2. Purt's Peas*

      That is highly normal. Doing 8+ focused hours of work–whether technical or something non-technical that requires sustained labor–is possible. Maybe you’re in a crunch time, maybe your job has poor labor protections and you’re overworked, maybe it’s economically necessary to be on full throttle constantly. It is really hard and it should not be necessary.

      Tips if you really need to push through–find a flow state, do something more routine with those hours. Or, put a problem in the back of your mind and rest. I’m good at time management and at getting stuff done, and one of the ways I do that is by resting: pushing through hours and hours of unrested work is frankly unproductive, on top of being unhealthy and unnecessary.

    3. 867-5309*

      When i’m having trouble focusing, I will try to break things into blocks: Set the timer and do x for 15 minutes and then do y for 15 minutes.

      Occasionally, when my focus is especially convoluted, it’s: Do x for 15 minutes, read an article on People, do x for 20 minutes, get a hot chocolate… Sort of a rewards system.

      1. LizB*

        This is basically the Pomodoro method, which breaks up your work into chunks of time you have to be focused separated by breaks. I think the most traditional breakdown is to work 25 minutes, then take a 5 minute break, and then the break after four work blocks is a longer break (15, maybe)? But you can adapt your timing to suit you and your work.

        1. LawLady*

          I was about to recommend pomodoros. I’m a big fan of tomato-timer.com, which is straightforward to use. I pick a goal, then do 25 minutes just focusing on that goal, then take a 5 or 10 minute break. A 25 minute increment is perfect for me to actually focus.

    4. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

      I’d say that unless I have a huge push to do a bunch of making things happen, I’m lucky to get in about 4 hours?

      Of course, I’m assistant to a lot of people as well as doing data entry / analysis / hey quill beat excel into order so having an 8 hour day where no one needs me for something new, or I don’t have like three competing things on my plate, is pretty unusual.

      I did a six hour stretch of documents coallation the other day and I don’t actually know how humans survived office jobs before audiobooks and podcasts, though.

    5. techRando*

      If you’re managing 4-6 hours of focused direct technical work, I think you’re doing fine. I don’t really know anyone who can focus on technical work for 8 hours a day.

      I’d recommend saving tasks which don’t take the same sort of mental energy for when you can’t continue your normal tech work. Consider:
      – Save your emails, if possible. Respond/organize/etc at the end of the day, rather than as they come in. (I understand that different companies have different standards for email responsiveness
      – Planning for the next day. Save up questions to write out in detail when you get a chance, look at your tasks and the status of any blockers, things like that.
      – Log your work for the day, keep a journal of tasks you’ve worked on and your accomplishments. This is good time to set and track professional goals.
      – Do you have smaller technical-but-not-the-same-type-of-technical tasks you could do? I often figure out ways to alias commands or script things I do often enough when my brain is too mushy to keep thinking about making say, a highly available web service as performant as possible.
      – Edit documentation for clarity
      – Write blog posts relevant to your work. I often write posts which explain my team’s work to other teams, or which explain one aspect of a recent project to my own team members. You might also be able to write blogs and post them not just internal to your company, but that depends on your company’s policy and whether you have generally applicable subjects to write posts about.
      – Taking on technical mentorship of someone new/junior to you. I often onboard new people to my team because even explaining technical concepts to someone else, or troubleshooting something verbally with another person, is significantly different energy from doing the work on my own.

      1. techRando*

        ETA: I don’t really know anyone who can focus on technical work for 8 hours a day *regularly*

        I and many others I know have managed 8 hours a day on occasion, for short bursts, but it’s not something I know to be regular for most people.

    6. Buttons*

      I tend to work in bursts. If I have something fairly intense I will work on it for 2 hours, then I pause and come here, or read the news, or do some work that takes a bit less brainpower. Then I go back for another burst.

    7. Ptarmigan*

      Unless it’s an emergency situation, I top out around 3-4 hours of work a day in my technical job. I don’t feel great about it but I bet it’s actually pretty typical.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      My father did very technical design work. I remember him saying, he would be sitting at his desk, feet up on the desk and staring off into space. It was normal for the boss to walk by and say NOTHING. The boss knew his people had to think and sometimes this was done without pencil and paper. (no computers back then) Another time my father mentioned that he always took a nap at lunch. I can just see him pushed back in his chair snoozing. Again, the boss never said a word. This is a mix of brain drain and seemingly non-productive time.

      My father had numerous patents to his credit. But I could see there were many points during the day where he appeared to be not working. As long as your boss is satisfied, OP, then no worries.

    9. Junior Dev*

      Some things that help me (I’m a programmer):

      * Build in breaks. In the past I’ve set an alarm on my phone for 3pm to take a 15 to 30 minute break and have a snack or cup of tea and really fully unplug from work. It can also help to go for a walk, do some stretches, or do breathing exercises.
      * Identify some tasks that don’t take much mental effort (you can make a list of these when you aren’t feeling exhausted). Sorting through email, responding to calendar invites, cleaning up old files, going through my tickets in Jira (or whatever project management software) and updating them accordingly. Cleaning my desk.
      * For the end of the day, write up notes. I have a bash script that runs every day the first time I turn on my computer that generates a text file with some questions for the beginning of the day and the end of the day. You don’t have to automate this if you don’t want to though. I’ve set a timer for an hour before I normally leave to write up notes on what I did, what I want to do tomorrow, what I did well and what I want to improve on. This is a worthwhile use of time in itself but also it sometimes shakes loose small tasks like “oh yeah, I never finished writing that email.”

    10. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      Yeah I’ll have bursts of time where I am an absolute machine and can work technically all day, but those are usually followed by days/weeks where I feel like mush and try to find simpler work to do. For sustainability, it works way better when I can have a balance of technical and non-technical work in my days.

    11. Combinatorialist*

      Thanks everyone! I feel pretty normal. I try to save less brainpower stuff but I sometimes just don’t have much. When I’m really pushing on something specific, I can do 8 hours for a few days, but sometimes it’s just not happening

    12. lasslisa*

      There’s apparently a reasonable amount of evidence that you only get 3-5 hours a day of focused mental effort. Other useful things can be done in the other hours of the day, of course. And we’re probably talking about some difference between, say, coming up with new algorithms versus debugging.

      1. LizB*

        Yeah, it may be worth mentioning that 8 hours isn’t a standard US work day because our brains or bodies are supposed be able to handle that amount of work – it’s a standard US work day because that’s where the negotiations between unions and business landed, based on philosophy/ideology, not any kind of robust science. Not being able to sustain 8 hours of strong mental focus on a regular basis is very normal, and doesn’t say anything bad about your work ethic/mental fortitude/etc etc.

    13. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’m a software developer. 8 hours of coding in a row (or even 4 and 4 with a break for lunch) doesn’t happen. My longest unbroken stretch was 2 hours, supplemented with extra caffeine at a time I don’t usually drink it. It was an emergency patch, and when it was approved, I was pretty well useless for the rest of the day. (Fortunately, it was already late afternoon by that point.)

      I will switch up types of tasks – straight coding, technical research and investigation tasks, reading various professional publications, emails, etc. I try to take breaks every hour or so to walk around and refill my water glass – when I don’t do this I can tell the difference. (Note to self: hydration is important!) If I need uninterrupted focus, I put in my earbuds and listen to some music – type varies by what task I’m doing and how much focus I need. Sometimes doodling or whiteboarding can help me get unstuck on a stuck task – the change of format from digital to analog sometimes knocks things loose.

    14. Collette*

      The answers to this question have been so helpful. I have been feeling like a failure because I cannot do heavy duty mental lifting 40 hours a week, and that appears to be expected at my workplace. I am so relieved to know that the fact that I keep running into a wall at about 30 is normal.

    15. Hamburke*

      Years ago, I read a summary of a study on labor – the 8 hour day is based on diminishing returns of manual laborers. People who do work that requires a lot of thinking hit that point around 6 hours. The study did say that it’s not unusual to have days, or even weeks, where workers can go many more hours but it’s not sustainable in the long term. It sounds like you are falling in the normal range for this.
      Short term, you can go for a walk mid day, plan something that doesn’t use a lot of thought or at least different kinds of thought as breaks from the technical, do timed tasks, switch up projects, etc. At my old job, I was able to arrange my schedule to extend my most productive hours, which for me is mornings – I could log in at 6, do an hour of work, get the kids off to school, work for 6-7 hours, be done by 4.

    16. andy*

      Do less difficult work last hours. Shedule easy reading learning into your day. Take breaks and do something sports like for 10 minutes if you can hide yourself. Or take 10 min walk. Basically take non smoking smoking break and move – that helps to get focus back.

  6. ThinMint*

    If you have direct reports and meet with them individually, do you take notes? If you take notes, do you share those notes with them?

    I have several direct reports and the level of management I have to do with them varies, so with some I don’t take notes. Others I take notes but don’t type them. And two of them, I type notes and share them out.

    I sometimes wonder if the discrepancy in how I handle that is an issue.

    1. HollyWeird*

      We would do shared OneNotes. Typically for both my manager and direct reports we would type in topics we want to discuss, type in other stuff that came up during the meeting and any action points we wanted to remember. Since we typically did weekly 1:1s it was useful for keeping track of what I actually needed to address during that meeting.

      1. FindThisVeryInteresting*

        I have shared Trello boards with my team. When we have 1:1, there is a list for my to-dos and their’s from the meeting. Then it also tracks growth opportunities/work, upcoming presentations, deadlines and major project milestones.

    2. noahwynn*

      I do two things:

      1) I record notes in OneNote about each meeting and what was discussed. These are informal and really only for me to reference when it comes time for annual performance reviews or to see what dates items were discussed if it becomes a larger issue. Allows me to see both wins and issues from the past year and how their work has (hopefully) improved over time. I do not share these notes directly with employees.

      2) If action items came out of the 1-on-1 for the employee or myself, I follow up the meeting with an email listing the action items to make sure we’re both on the same page. If there are specific dates, I’ll send a calendar invite as well.

      1. ThinMint*

        And I assume you do this from when they start? I don’t have any issues with most of my reports taking action items from the meetings and getting them done without me emailing. I’m worried if I start now for the sake of consistency, it will feel like micromanaging.

        1. Elenia*

          You are human. It is ok to say, “You know, considering how busy it’s gotten, I’m going to begin taking notes at our one on ones/asking you to take notes/writing down action items.” It is a mark of respect -you think what is coming out of that meeting is important enough to note.
          I ask them to submit a weekly report. Not because I necessarily care about the nitty gritty of what they are doing, but when you are busy and your boss asks “So how did it go this week” sometimes you don’t remember everything!
          My report has a section for
          Stuff done this week
          Stuff in progress or working on
          Concerns or questions
          Time off (so I know if they are off next week, or whatever)

          1. Not failed, pre-successful*

            Agreed! When I was first promoted to a management position, I had a boss who told me to always take notes in my one on one meetings with direct reports, even if it felt unnecessary, because it signals to the employee that you think the topics being discussed and the things they’re sharing are important.

    3. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

      I have reports which I meet work regularly. I keep my own running notes and then try to summarize at the end the conversation. Because my brain had become a sieve

    4. blaise zamboni*

      I don’t have reports but my manager takes notes during our 1:1s (biweekly) and emails me a summary of what we discussed sometime before our next 1:1. She started doing it because she needed a paper trail to discipline my coworker, but there’s only two of us so she wanted to be consistent. If you have a ton of reports and meet them more regularly I can see that being a huge time-sink for you. But if you have time, I think it’s a useful strategy. My summaries are always like…”You’re working on XYZ, you finished ABC, we talked about Policy Blah regarding your time off request.” Nothing crazy but it’s nice to refer back to later.

    5. A Person*

      I take my own personal notes, and I should probably start getting more formal with action items. Generally I’ll make a separate note if there’s something I need to do (and then follow through), and I’ll expect reports to follow through, but I don’t make any formal notes about it.

      My personal notes space is also where I make notes about anything specific I want to talk about on the call, from “Good job on your Teapot Report yesterday, the Tea department really appreciated it!” or “Let’s talk about ways to reduce the number of Teapot Painting errors you’ve had recently”.

    6. Who Knows?*

      I used to do hand written notes that I’d then type and email them a copy. I recently switched to a shared onenote for all of my staff. There is one tab with general information for anyone on the team and then each employee has a password protected tab for their 1-1 notes. They each only have their own passwords, I have all of them. It’s been a really good switch. I type them while we talk. I don’t love that piece of it, I do feel like it’s become less conversational, but that downside I think is worth the time saving. I use checklists at the end of each meeting note where. They can check things off as they complete them.

      You don’t need notes until you do. Trying to fire an employee right now. Really glad that I have all those old notes.

  7. Pam Beesly*

    I applied for a remote customer service position with one of my favorite companies. Fingers crossed!

    2. SunnySideUp*

      Good luck!

      I had an interview call for a remote position yesterday — I think it went really well!

        1. SunnySideUp*

          Well, I read up on the topic here…. and made sure I had answers for the question about why I want to work remotely. I also had Qs about how the team stays engaged when everyone is scattered across the US. The other Qs were ones I’d ask in any interview.

  8. Not Actually Private*

    This is going to be about something different than it initially seems.

    An admin pulled me aside this week and asked if I was married. Apparently someone from another department noticed that she and I seem friendly, so he asked her if I was single. (A lot of us don’t wear jewelry for safety reasons, so I don’t wear my rings at work.) She said to me, “I told him I would ask, since you’re so private.”

    I just stared at her for endless seconds, at a loss for what to say. Over the past two years she’s worked here, I can think of at least three times that she and I have commiserated over the fact that we’re both married to teachers. (Teachers, around here at least, tend to be an insular group, usually marrying and socializing with other teachers. It’s isolating to be the only person in a friend group who isn’t in education and can’t join last-minute plans all summer long.)

    I have no idea what she means by “private”. Does she think I got divorced since we last spoke about teaching (it was a couple of months ago) and hid it from everyone? Does she have early-onset dementia and completely forget ever having these conversations? I have no idea what her deal is. I simply replied that I was married and let it drop, but my brain is going wild.

    1. ThatGirl*

      That’s funny. Honestly I would probably chalk it up to her having a complete brain fart over your previous conversations? I know that I have certainly been guilty of forgetting things I’ve talked to people about. I chatted with a woman in our break area for 10 minutes and went back to my desk before I suddenly remembered her name and that we had worked together on a project last year. As for “private” well, maybe she mixed you up with someone else, or maybe just got that idea out of nowhere.

      1. Did you read the syllabus?*

        Yup brain fart. I did something similar to a co-worker. I saw a co-worker at a different location than where I normally see them and my very tired brain simply decided that it was in fact a different coworker and they don’t even look at that similar. I managed to say something that made it clear that I was confusing them and I felt terrible. Unfortunately, I am so bad at names and faces, so when I am more tired than normal I am likely to mix people up.

      2. Quinalla*

        Yes, this was my thought that you might not want to tell people you weren’t close to if you were married.

    3. Myrin*

      I think this is just an example of the thing where we are the centre of our own universes and as such remember everything about ourselves and view it as important and others… don’t.
      Talking about a specific topic three times (or even five or ten times!) over two years really isn’t a lot when you look at it, and you say that you’re “friendly” but it doesn’t sound like you’re more than that (as in, best work buddies or similar).
      I can understand the confusion in theory since I can guarantee you that I personally would absolutely remember not only these conversations I had with you but also everything else you’ve ever told me about your marital status, but I’ve learned, especially in the last couple of years, that not everyone is like that, and not because they have serious memory problems but simply because it’s not that interesting to them and their brains are filled with dozens of more important information.

      1. Not Actually Private*

        Yeah, generally I don’t think I’m astonishingly memorable or anything (I’m basic AF, actually), I just thought we had some really good talks about this one unusual topic. I’ve thought back to those conversation when growing really frustrated with my spouse, so I guess I just hoped she had gotten similar mileage out of the interactions. It isn’t that big a deal, though.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        I don’t even remember that much about myself, and am often reminded by my spouse of things I’ve done or said. If the discussion on your spouse wasn’t in the last 2 weeks, there’s a huge chance I wouldn’t’ve remembered it.

        But I agree with the others too – she might have been letting you know that she wasn’t going to talk about you without your permission first.

    4. Observer*

      Is it possible that what she meant is that she didn’t want to say anything to the CW without your permission. She didn’t need to ask you if you are married, but if you want coworker to know that you are married.

      2. Velvet Cupcake*

        This. I’m very inclined to think it is this. She’s letting you know that someone else is poking at the edges of your life, and she hasn’t shared anything because you get to decide.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Yeah, I think this is more her telling you that he asked and she didn’t answer in order to protect your privacy. Meaning, she is a considerate friend who thinks well on her feet. :-)

      4. Oh No She Di'int*

        This was my understanding. “I told him I would ask, since you’re so private” seems like shorthand for: “I didn’t want to blurt it right out to him, so I bought some time by saying that I would ask. That way you have the choice as to whether or not you want to disclose that information.”

    5. Nikara*

      Is it possible that she was really asking if it was okay for her to share with this other person that you were married, since you are generally a private person?

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I like people but honestly can’t retain information like this at all. You seem to be astonished that she can’t remember something that you’ve discussed only three times in two years, when I would be astonished if she did.

    7. Jean*

      I wouldn’t read too much into it. She probably either just spaced on your previous conversation, or thought your situation might have changed for some reason. Doesn’t seem like that big a deal.

    8. Buttons*

      I think she just wanted to tell you the person asked about you. I think she was being gossipy and wanted to see how you responded.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Or, you know, give the OP a friendly heads-up. I think I’d want to know if somebody at work started asking about me, because in my case it would be weird and I would appreciate knowing before this person started pestering everyone for information about me.

    9. So Not The Boss Of Me*

      She was asking if it was okay to answer the other person’s question. Maybe you didn’t want other people to know whether you are married. Yeah, that’s an odd one, but better to err on that side than saying “Joe asked if you’re married and I laughed and told him you’re gay, but mostly asexual and you had all your kids through in vitro.” I would thank her for her discretion.

      1. Not Actually Private*

        Thanks, I definitely think now that I misunderstood her phrasing. She was indeed VERY discreet; she never actually even told me who the guy was.

        1. valentine*

          she never actually even told me who the guy was.
          This is weird. My concern would be the middle school game of telephone and my answer would be I’m not interested, now or ever.

    10. LittleBeans*

      I once spent 60 minutes 1:1 in a conference room with a woman and one week later, she came up to me at a meeting with her hand out to introduce herself.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        Ugh, this is me! I am mildly face-blind, and I have introduced myself to the same colleague four times. It’s horribly embarrassing for me, and no doubt it hurts the feelings of the people I can’t recognize right off the bat. :(

    11. fhqwhgads*

      Absent any additional info, I would assume she’s not actually asking you having forgotten your earlier discussions, but rather telling you this dude asked her, and giving you the power of veto over whether she should tell him the answer or not, because your marriage is your business and you might not want to talk to other people about it at work. As in, she’s assuming just because you shared with her, does not mean you want her to subsequently share with others.

    12. plausible deniability*

      I just forgot my coworker’s kid & asked him if he had a kid, even though my kid and his kid had mutually impressive-to-each-other Halloween costumes last year (so I knew in a different part of my brain that he had a kid).

  9. JJ*

    A while ago, I attempted suicide and survived. I am doing better now and am no longer suicidal, thanks to medication and weekly therapy. I work full time for a residential mental health facility, in a non-clinical capacity (Think payroll or marketing-absolutely no contact with patients and no knowledge of any care-related info). I am a department of one, and when I first started I had a small, private work area in the business office, but recently the facility decided to create a new manager position in that department so they gave my space to her and put me in an office with one of the nurse managers.
    From a logical standpoint I understand why I was put in there: one aspect of my job requires minor collaboration with that manager. But from an emotional standpoint I am struggling, for many reasons. I put in an ADA request to potentially move to a different location, but there is just nowhere I can be moved, and my doctor is not willing to provide a specific letter (she signed a general request for accommodation, but won’t give specifics) that says I cannot work in that office (she says that many people have my condition, generalized anxiety disorder, and deal with shared offices) and my job won’t do anything more without such a letter. So I am stuck. Just fyi: My doctor does not know about my suicide attempt. The only person who knows is a close friend, though I’m sure my therapist suspects as I have alluded to it but never admitted it. I will not tell anyone else, because after having worked in a mental health facility I refuse to be placed in one.
    My main problem is how to deal with my biggest struggle involving my relocation: My office mate is a manager but also a direct care staff who frequently has long conversations about patients with her direct reports and other care staff. This happens 75% percent of the time on the 4 days of the week that she does not have treatment team meetings. For example, I heard something similar to this yesterday: TRIGGER WARNING!!!!

    ‘X ripped parts of a towel and braided them, then locked themselves in their bathroom and by the time we got them out they were blue. [Doctor] ordered that we need to have someone watching her at all times.’

    It’s not always quite so bad, sometimes it’s just about interactions between patients or between patients and staff. But it is really distressing and somewhat triggering for me.
    I would normally have no problem asking my office mate to change the topic, but these conversations are always in the context of patient care, i.e.: her job. It’s not feasible for me to leave the office every time something comes up as my job is 100% desk based. Noise cancelling headphone are not a great option because I spend so much time on the phone. What can I do? I’ve spoken to my manager and HR; not about this particular concern but others related to my ADA request, and there is nothing else they are willing or able to do.

    1. blink14*

      Honestly, I would seriously think on whether or not this is the right type of environment for you overall. And I would highly encourage you to speak with your therapist about the attempt.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I would at least tell the therapist about the suicide attempt so she’ll write you a more detailed letter (not disclosing the exact details, but close enough to show that this is serious) for your ADA accommodations. You absolutely need to be moved.

      2. Lyudie*

        Seconding blink14’s second point. Do talk to your therapist about, it’s important to be honest even when it’s hard. I totally get the desire to not disclose but she needs to know the full picture. And *hugs*.

    2. Nope, not today*

      I dont see why you cant raise this concern without disclosing your own struggles – many people would find that sort of thing very distressing, even without having any history of suicide attempts or family members who have attempted, etc. I would simply tell them that – you are not involved in that type of work, and you find the frequent (necessary) discussion of mental health issues and suicide very distressing and distracting. Also, if she is having these conversations in the office and you are making work related calls, that seems like it could present privacy issues – if you are speaking to a vendor, they should not be hearing this sort of thing either.

    3. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

      Could your therapist sign for the ADA, in the context of “a lot of these necessary conversations about patient care are triggering for JJ and causing significant distress?” Because it sounds to me like your primary care doctor has no background knowledge about psychiatric care whatsoever (as evidenced by the idea that “other people with the same diagnosis deal with it,” when mental health problems are pretty darn varied and also there are a lot of physical conditions that present with a huge variety of symptoms, i.e. “other people with hip problems prefer to stand” vs “I physically cannot stand in line for an hour long meeting due primarily to my hip problems.)

    4. KoiFeeder*

      Eeesh, that would be hard to hear even without your personal context. Does your doctor know about the sorts of conversations you overhear that trigger your disorder? There’s a huge difference between a shared office in an aromatherapy company and overhearing details of attempted suicides without warning.

      1. Mia 52*

        Its tough to hear but these are expected conversations in a mental health facility. You will hear about mental health which sadly can sometimes be quite gruesome.

    5. Blueberry*

      This is a dreadful Catch 22. Is there a way you could say to your therapist or doctor that listening to the details of patient care is detrimental to your mental health without mentioning your suicide attempt? As in, “Because I am dealing with [diagnosis] listening to the details of patients’ suicide attempts and other difficulties reinforces the disorded thoughts I have” ? I’d avoid anything along the lines of “it gives me suicidal ideation” (and definitely avoid “it reminds me of my suicide attempt”), but focus on the distress and the reinforcement of disorded thinking these details cause you?

      Also, practically, can you walk around the facility and identify somewhere you could be moved to, so when you go back to your workplace you can make concrete suggestions?

      I’m coming at this as someone who worked in healthcare and who is under treatment for mental illness myself, but I am not at all a healthcare practicioner. I send you all my good vibes and hopes for continued healing.

    6. GrumbleBunny*

      Good lord, that would be hard for anyone to listen to, with or without your specific context.
      If I were in your position, I would probably try to bring it up as a HIPAA/privacy concern. Specifically that these are very private details about patients that you don’t have any need to know, and also that it’s difficult for you to do your job because you’re concerned about people hearing protected in the background of your phone calls.
      If your job requires minor collaboration with the manager, you could propose to move elsewhere and have regular scheduled meetings to catch up on those things.
      Wishing you all the best, I hope you’re able to get this changed!

      1. The Rafters*

        In this case, it’s not likely a HIPAA violation. It would be considered “incidental disclosure.” Partial Definition: “Secondary use or disclosure that cannot reasonably be prevented, is limited in nature, and that occurs as a result of another use …”

        1. ..Kat..*

          For JJ to hear these conversations is a HIPAA violation. JJ does not participate in the care of these patients in any way. She does not need any of this information to do her job. This is not for secondary use or as a result of another use (such as processing insurance payments). JJ is only hearing this information because JJ and this manager share an office. Unless this other manager can go elsewhere for these conversations, they should not be sharing an office.

    7. Catwoman*

      It sounds like your office mate really needs a private space. If she is a manager and discussing patient care, then she needs to be able to have those conversations in private. I would focus on this angle in future discussions with your manager and HR. You can frame it as being uncomfortable being privy to patient health information that is likely HIPPA-protected when you are not a care provider yourself AND emphasize that your office mate should have access to a space where she can have private conversations with her direct reports for things like performance discussions and concerns her direct reports may not feel comfortable discussing in front of you.

      If HR and your manager don’t seem to be helpful, approach your office mate with the same angle of discussion (concern over her ability to have a private conversation) and maybe you two can find a conference room or other space that could be utilized for this type of talk. This could be a win-win for you both.

    8. agnes*

      I think there might be another issue here, which is that some of the conversations the Nurse Manager is having may include HIPPA protected information. You are a non-clinical employee and therefore should not be hearing these.

      You really need some documentation from a medical provider to request any kind of ADA accommodation. Without that, I can understand why HR isn’t more responsive. However, they really should be thinking about the issue of having a non-clinical employee hearing clinical information that is potentially HIPPA protected.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think agnes nails your strongest talking point in the first paragraph. You do not need this info to do your work and you should not be privy to it.

        Instead of talking to your boss I think you should talk to Nurse Manager’s boss. She is the boss who will catch on faster here and be really motivated to do something.

    9. Anono-me*

      You need to get out of that environment.

      I could not be in this office for more than 1 week. And even that much would probably be damaging to me emotionally. I think this is true for many many people. (Your history may make you more sensitive, but I suspect that it actually makes it more likely that you worry more than necessary about being too sensitive.)

      I repeat: You need to get out of that office.

      I hope you consider changing doctors. (You deserve a doctor that you can trust with your medical history; not just in this instance, but for all your medical care.) If you switch to a physician that you trust with your past medical history, I would hope that you can get a more accurate effective letter about your need to not be in that shared space.

      As alternative approaches:

      This is internal to your organization, but since you are not involved in providing care to these people; is having these care conversations in your presence a violation of HIPAA? (I know it violates the spirit of the law, but I am not sure about the actual laws.)

      Could some of the information about the PTSD suffered by social media monitors be useful when you make your case that you need to not be in the same space with someone talking about things that are this sad and traumatic.

      Noise canceling headphones with a desk phone that lights up when it rings.

      Good luck

    10. WineNot*

      My company encouraged employees to participate in no sugar/no alcohol January. I have been participating, along with several other people, but for the most part, people are drinking and eating sugar. At the beginning of the month, our HR emailed the all-company distro which includes people in offices in multiple different states. People replied all to her emails with the most dramatic meme-type images – one was of an older man lying face down on the floor reaching for something, as if he had fallen down and couldn’t get up – and said dramatic things like “Today is the last day of our lives”, “Life is Over”, etc.

      HR has sent a few emails out over the month about lowering sugar intake and eating healthier in general. People keep replying all to the all-company distro talking about their specific diets and health goals that they have. Is this normal?! Have other people experienced funny/weird things like this? It makes me cringe and laugh and question everyone’s judgement. It seems harmless but also seems interesting for HR to promote diets by email.

    11. Koala dreams*

      You could try to get a letter from your therapist about which kind of accomodations you need. There are also occupational therapists that help people to deal with their job, if you can find one that has experience with mental health issues it could be useful. An occupation therapist can help you find accomodations.

      I don’t know how the ADA process works, if it requires specifically that your doctor writes a letter you might need to change doctor. That might be a good idea anyway, since it’s not very good to have a doctor who refuse to believe that you can have a different experience than their other patients. (I wonder how many other patients your doctor have had that got the same response when they also couldn’t deal with their office environment.) I know it’s hard to find a new doctor, but it’s worth a try.

      Another way to convince your employer would be to bring up the privacy concerns and the negative impact on the people you speak with. I imagine it would be bad if clients or vendors heard private health history in the background of your calls.

    12. Faith the Twilight Slayer*

      I have to agree with others here that you could maybe approach it in a HIPPA-related manner, in which case you might have some success, depending on how your workplace operates. Can you maybe try earbuds? You said headphones aren’t the answer, but with earbuds you can at least always leave one out while they’re not talking, and then pop it in when someone comes in? And if your phone is right by your desk, does it have one of those features that lights it up when it’s ringing so that you can see when you have a call? You say you have a doctor and a therapist, are those two different people? If so, even if your doctor won’t help, maybe your therapist can help you with an ADA request.

    13. Emilitron*

      It sounds like your ADA request is really vague, and therefore the responses aren’t very helpful (“lots of anxious people have officemates”). I’d try to phrase your requests as specifically and bluntly as you can make yourself feel comfortable with. “Overhearing information about patients’ mental health crises is very triggering to me, because of specific family history events that I’d rather not get into detail of. I understand that this is a patient care facility and these are the types of things some of our employees have to be able to talk about, but it has not been an issue for me in my office job here on site. I asked previously for a private office so that I could avoid these triggering situations. I know office spaces are tight; I am happy to share an office with someone else in an administrative role who will not be involved in patient-treatment conversations. What kind of statement from my doctor would help make it clear that I can’t be around crisis and treatment conversations?”

      2. Poppy the Flower*

        Yes, I think you really do need to get into the specifics of why *this* shared office space in particular is distressing! But I think it would be to many people who don’t necessarily have your medical history, so this is a great suggestion for how to bring it up without discussing your suicide attempt.

    14. Who Knows?*

      Hey JJ, I’m sorry you are having such a hard time. I really do understand where you are coming from. I do government work in mental health. I’ve also experienced really serious mental illness, while at work, without disclosing it to my employer. It can be REALLY REALLY hard to deal with the kinds of discussions that might come up. I’ve sat through suicide prevention trainings while actively suicidal and it was torturous. It’s easier now that I’m doing a lot better, but still, some days, it’s hard.

      I think you have to think really long and hard if it’s something you can handle. It’s totally okay if you can’t. You already know that it’s not going to be a reasonable accommodation in your setting to avoid triggering topics. If you are going to keep working there, I really hope you’ll seek out more support. I totally get your hesitance to open up about a suicide attempt and fear of being hospitalized. I’ve been an inpatient in a unit my office licenses. Not fun. But you aren’t going to be hospitalize for a past tense attempt and you need support now to function at work.

      Really hoping you can find something that works for you. Again, so sorry for what you are going through.

  10. HollyWeird*

    I started a new job recently and there is another employee there who is making me feel uncomfortable. He is younger than me and junior to me and as I’ve dealt with sexual harassment in the workplace previously I may be particularly sensitive to this matter.
    He told me one day he wanted to hug me and later in the elevator began stroking my arm without permission. I was dealing with a family emergency at the moment on the phone (he was unaware of this, the arm stroking was not to comfort me) and just whipped my arm away and glared at him, but unfortunately didn’t directly address it that day as I was emotionally fatigued from the emergency. There’s other things that have bothered me, him insisting repeatedly that he should drive me to my house even when I decline, buying me gifts, stealing other people’s seats so he can sit next to me, complaining unprompted about how he wants a girlfriend while making moon eyes at me, tries to get me to invite him to personal events I’m going to, etc. I’ve tried to be blatant and told him he could not have my personal phone number or come to events with me as I keep my work separate from my personal life.
    I no longer see him except once a week and I try to be just professional, not ignoring him but keeping boundaries in place. I haven’t told anyone else on the team because while this makes me uncomfortable I don’t think it’s to the line of reporting it. Since I work in a very male dominated industry I have also experienced the men on the team turning on me before when I reported one of their “bros” for very egregious behavior.
    Long story short, I’ve decided to address it if any boundary is crossed again but does anyone have advice on how tell him he needs to treat me as a professional and not his buddy/potential girlfriend?

    1. Turtlewings*

      I wonder if he’s taking the “keep work and personal life separate” line as some sort of challenge that he needs to weasel past. To be clear, it shouldn’t be; it should have been an obvious ‘knock it off’ signal. But you may need to be extremely, uncomfortably blunt. “I am not interested in going out with you, ever. I am not even interested in being friends with you. I would be thrilled to never see you again. Stop talking to me. Stop sitting next to me. Stop interacting with me at all or I will report you for harassment.” That’s maybe a shade more harsh than you have to be… or not. Even if you step it back a bit from that script, practice saying something EXTREMELY blunt and unmistakable. Don’t soften it with “let’s just be professional” because he doesn’t know how to do that. Tell him to stop talking to you ever.

      1. HollyWeird*

        Yeah, I also have detected that he might be trying to “test boundaries” with me. I think telling him I never want to see him or interact with him again might not work as we potentially will have to be on the same team again in the future, unless I also go the route of reporting him. However you are correct that I think he doesn’t know how to be professional. Thank you for your advice!

        1. Senor Montoya*

          You don’t need to say that. See my comment below. Make your statement about the behavior being inappropriate and that it makes you uncomfortable. And document.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Honestly, I WOULD report it if you feel safe/comfortable doing so. Making you uncomfortable at work is ABSOLUTELY enough to report someone, and what he’s doing is WELL over the line of acceptable professional behavior. If I were his manager and he was doing this to another employee, I would definitely want to know about it, and frankly, I would not take firing him off the table as a possible response. Is there a female manager you could talk to about this, even if it’s not his manager? Someone you could at least tell, “there’s a guy here who’s behaving really inappropriately to me, and I want to find a way of getting someone to step in and help me out, but I’m afraid of blowback from other men on the team?”

      Also, when you are talking to him and enforcing a boundary, do NOT worry about hurting his feelings or making him feel awkward in front of other people. Don’t be afraid to say flat-out: “Dude, I’m your colleague. I am not your girlfriend. You can’t come to events with me, and I want you to stop insisting on driving me home. This is not an acceptable way to interact with a colleague.” If he feels hurt, it’s on HIM for behaving that way.

      1. HollyWeird*

        Thank you so much for your advice. There is not female management I can report him to, but I was assigned another senior female team member as a mentor who I can talk to. I also do think my manager would probably be receptive to it as well. I need to let go of my programming that “oh well maybe it’s a misunderstanding!” especially as it seems you guys are also on the same page as me that this behavior is very inappropriate.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          Definitely reach out to your mentor. She might have some advice about how to broach the subject with your manager, and hey, maybe she’s seen or heard other stuff with this guy that corroborates your experiences and can provide more ammunition in your discussion with your manager. I hope it goes well, and that you are soon reporting to the AAM community that you are no longer being harassed at work and that management was supportive of you!

          1. HollyWeird*

            Thank you! I think part of my hesitation in reporting was that he was getting moved to a new office location a couple hours away so I thought the problem would resolve itself and I wouldn’t have to be “the bad guy” in reporting him. However there is still some interaction that is required and I also am troubled by the fact that he could be harassing someone else there.

            1. CupcakeCounter*

              Your last line is why you need to have some documentation of this. Maybe he was simply fixated on you but, more than likely, once there is the office separation he will fixate on someone else who might not have the seniority and experience you have to handle it firmly.
              Is there an HR person you could contact in addition to your mentor? Maybe they can at minimum punch up the respect in the workplace and sexual harassment trainings for this guy.

              1. valentine*

                Making you uncomfortable at work is ABSOLUTELY enough to report someone, and what he’s doing is WELL over the line of acceptable professional behavior.
                Yes. He’s way over the line. List out the examples and look at the sheer number of different ways he’s getting at you. It’s at once juvenile, scary, and escalating. I would report him, even if it meant a job search.

                He’s the bad guy and I doubt distance will stop him. In fact, he could ramp up with BS about how he misses you or is networking or whatever.

                Don’t be alone with him.

            2. Cruciatus*

              Most women probably understand your impulse here (we’re generally taught to be polite, not make a fuss) however, you’re not the bad guy for reporting someone who is crossing normal boundaries. And for another woman (or man!), you might actually be “the good guy” by getting this on record. There could be another victim at the new office he gloms onto and maybe it’s easier to fire him because now there’s a history (if they don’t already fire him when you report it). You might keep other people from feeling the way you are right now. I’m sorry this is happening to you!

        2. learnedthehardway*

          Yeah – this isn’t a “misunderstanding”. This is sexual harassment, and the guy KNOWS he’s being inappropriate, or he absolutely SHOULD know (there’s no excuse for him not knowing, let’s put it that way).

          He’s relying on you being polite / thinking he’s confused / whatever – so he can keep pushing your boundaries.

          1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            YES, this is totally sexual harassment.

            Just…I can’t say anymore without ranting, but this creep needs to be reported (as long as *you* feel safe doing so, @HollyWeird).

          2. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

            Yeah, what this guy is doing is not okay. And he is relying on your politeness. Definitely talk to your mentor. Can you also report this to HR?

        3. Working Hypothesis*

          This is absolutely not a misunderstanding, HollyWeird! He has committed multiple pretty extreme sexual harassment offenses (touching you without permission? Repeatedly demanding to drive you home after your explicit refusal?)

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “I am not interested in having any sort of non-professional relationship with you. Please stop. If you are unable to stick to work-related topics, I will ask management/HR to intervene.”

      Also “I need you to keep your hands to yourself.” And “Jane was sitting there, you’ll need to find another seat.” And “I will not be accepting this gift or any other gift from you. This is a purely professional relationship.”

      2. HollyWeird*

        Thank you! I will need to interact with him later and will keep all of these scripts in the front of my mind.

    4. Observer*

      You are not being “over sensitive”. In fact, I think you are being UNDER sensitive. He started stroking your arm without permission? Tries to muscle in on your personal life? “INSISTS” on driving you anywhere, much less YOUR HOME? These are not little things. This guy has not just crossed boundaries, he’s left them on another planet.

      I don’t what your workplace is like, but if you can report it without negative blow back, DO SO. This is utterly out of line.

      As for what to tell him – say exactly what you said here. “I am a professional not your buddy or girlfriend. Please treat me like a professional.” If he gives you the “I was just being friendly”, “I was just joking!” or “Oh, look at YOU! Jumping to conclusions! You’re not THAT attractive!” lines, just stick with “Nevertheless, this (whatever “this” is) is unprofessional and inappropriate. You need to stop.”

      Don’t get drawn into what his intentions are. He’s being very inappropriate and it needs to stop.

      And, by the way, his behavior is inappropriate even where it would be appropriate to see if someone would respond to somatic overtures. Touching people without their permission and “insisting” on taking people to their homes is red flag territory.

      1. HollyWeird*

        Thank you Observer. I am really grateful for your advice. I think coming from an industry where sexual harassment was very normal (entertainment) my views on what is “a little inappropriate” versus “waving red flag” have been skewed and I’m glad to gain perspective from you guys. The ride home was incredibly awkward as I kept declining and he kept insisting and then was sending me messages on our internal chat about why I should accept after I declined numerous times. In addition to it not being practical, I was aware that it was a safety issue too to let him know where I live or be alone with me for that amount of time.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          GAAAAH. The entertainment industry gave us Harvey Flippin’ Weinstein. If your manager needs a reminder of why stopping creepers is important…

          1. HollyWeird*

            Yes, I personally experienced this behavior and almost every other woman I spoke to in the industry (except two) has experienced something similar. It was sad because when the news about Weinstein came out, my reaction was, “How is everyone surprised? This happens every day.”

            I reported my harasser and got burned for it… but I’m still glad I did.

        2. Observer*

          Please grab screen shots of all of his messages – you want to show how he pressured you.

          Please don’t let him pressure you into accepting more rides from him. Don’t argue or discuss, just keep on repeating “No”. If I ever heard of a situation where “NO is a complete sentence.” is what you should be thinking, this is it.

          1. HollyWeird*

            Thanks Observer, I will take screenshots. I did not accept the ride, just kept saying no and then eventually stopped responding. I would not have felt safe at all to accept the ride.

        3. plausible deniability*

          If you are in private, you can just be rude and say straight out “Get the f*&^ away!” very coldly.

          I understand the impulse to be professional, and also the impulse not to escalate, and they’re both very legitimate. You are not required to be straight-out aggressively rude. My personal experience is that some men will use professionalism and the desire not to escalate against you and simply work within those parameters to harass you. Sometimes showing you’re willing to disrupt those parameters can help a bit.

          Again, this shouldn’t be on you: he’s in the wrong. But when you’re forced to deal with someone else’s attacks like this (I use that word with intent) it’s useful to have some other ideas for defense.

    5. fposte*

      Agreeing with others, especially Observer. Next time he does something like buying you a gift, inviting you to a personal event, stroking your arm [!], or even insisting when you’ve already said no, that’s your opening. “Doofus, that’s not in keeping with a professional relationship; it’s important to me to work professionally with my co-workers here, and I hope you can respect that and not do that again.”

      1. HollyWeird*

        Thank you for the script, I’m going to practice saying this in the mirror later. I want to shut this down as efficiently as possible without fully erupting on him (which I would love to do as I have a lot of pent up irritation about this!)

    6. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

      I think the answer is to be very direct the next time he says or does something. “Fergus, I’ve said several times no. Have I not been clear? I’ve noticed a patter of X, Y, and Z. All of these things are making me uncomfortable, so I’m asking you firmly and clearly to stop.”

      FWIW, I think it rises to the level of reporting: buying you gifts? Unwanted touching? Eeesh. Good luck, sending you good vibes!

      1. HollyWeird*

        Thank you for the good vibes! I know I need to be even more direct. I’ve gotten a lot of great scripts from you guys and hopefully I can address it ASAP so I no longer have to feel like I’m on eggshells.

        1. tangerineRose*

          And know that you’ve already been direct enough for most people. I think he must already know you don’t like this, but when you use direct scripts like this, it gives him nothing to hide behind – he can’t claim ignorance at that point.

      2. Working Hypothesis*

        Except DON’T say “Have I not been clear?” That gives him an opening to say that she hasn’t, and therefore an excuse.

        Instead, try “Fergus, you have done X, Y and Z, and each time I have told you I don’t want you to do that. I have also said explicitly that I wish to keep work — that’s you — and personal life separate. I have been very clear: I do not want you to talk to me about any subject except work. I do not want you to buy me gifts. I do not want you to touch me, ever. I do not want you to sit next to me. I do not want you to drive me home. You need to stop all of these things — they’re completely inappropriate, and I’m making it as clear as possible that they are unwanted. Please leave me alone except as necessary to get our work done.”

    7. CL Cox*

      When he started stroking your arm without permission, he crossed a line. Continuing to ask about driving you home, trying to invite himself to work events, etc. are just further indications of how inappropriate he’s being. Please do report this. I agree with the others that telling him bluntly to leave you alone is good, but it’s not even necessary at this point, his behavior is so egregious.

    8. CheeryO*

      Oh my gosh, please be more direct with this guy. He either does not understand or is choosing to not understand boundaries, and I’d be shocked if he stopped trying to come onto you on his own accord. He needs to hear in no uncertain terms that he’s being incredibly inappropriate and it needs to stop immediately.

      1. HollyWeird*

        I agree CheeryO, I even thought to myself that several of these actions were testing boundaries to see what he could get away with. Even though I’ve been frosty, he does seem to be choosing not to understand. Thank you!

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          Yeah. Since you’re in the entertainment field, maybe a “Are you *trying* to be Harvey Weinstein?” might jar some sense into him.

    9. FormerFirstTimer*

      As an objective outsider, this is absolutely worth reporting. I think you should give your boss a heads up at the very least. Something like, “Hey, I just wanted to make you aware that Creepy Dude is making me very uncomfortable by trying to insert himself into my personal life even after I’ve told him I keep my work and private life seperate. I’m going to address it myself if it happens again, but I wanted you to be aware in case I need to escalate it.” That way your boss will be aware of the situation. I do think you should just tell your boss whats going on and how they want you to handle reporting it, do you go to them first, or HR? You’ve told Creepy dude that you keep work and life seperate and he’s still making moon eyes at you, he’s not going to stop until someone makes him.

      2. Nesprin*

        Add to this- start the creepy/weird log now. So on June 3rd, stroked my arm in elevator, on Aug 6, insisted on driving me home etc. Keep it somewhere safe and have access to both in and out of work. One creepy incident can be explained away as a fluke, dozens over months show a pervasive hostile work environment. Documentation of repeated incidents is invaluable if an investigation is started and even more so if an investigation is not started and should have been.

        1. HollyWeird*

          This is a great suggestion, I think I might put it onto a Google Sheets document so I can have it whenever I need.

    10. Workerbee*

      Young guys like this turn into old guys like that. I know, because I had one at a previous job (and he was part of the reason I finally left). And some folks seem to feel more entitled as they age.

      The above suggestions are great, so I’ll just emphasize that it’s important to keep telling yourself that YOU are not the one making things awkward. He is. He is actively choosing to reach out–sometimes literally!–and is counting on the bro-culture to support him. I said this in a different thread, but your safety is 100% more important than any feelings he may or may not legitimately have when you call him on his behavior. It’s 2020. Excuses for his actions are so thin as to be transparent.

      Oh, and next time he steals a seat to be next to you, move. If he gets into an elevator with you, get out (safely, of course. I did this once with a harasser and the doors closed right behind me, leaving him fuming inside, but it was all instinct-driven). If you can at all be loud and puzzled about it at the same time, it can help. “WHY DID YOU MAKE THAT PERSON MOVE?” and such like. Old guy I referenced up there, I did a “WHY ARE YOU SNIFFING MY SCARF?” one time. It can at least cover the person in confusion while you make your escape.

      1. HollyWeird*

        Wow! Sniffing your scarf! That must have been so uncomfortable and disturbing. I had an incident at a previous job where reporting a sexual harasser backfired on me (both with my team and management). I was early in my career and I think that incident has made me once bitten, twice shy. However the idea of this guy going on to harass other women throughout the rest of his life…I would feel terrible at not addressing it even though it’s his behavior and not mine that’s the problem.

        I did actually get up and move last time he stole a seat next to me! But I need to be more blunt because I think he will find ways to rationalize why he still should be able to act the way he does.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          What you need to make absolutely clear (assuming you still want to deal with this yourself, which I’m on record as saying you shouldn’t — this is way, WAY past the point of needing to be reported!) is that it does not matter what he intends, or what he thinks he should be able to do. This is about how YOU are treated, and that means YOU get to decide. “Do not speak to me except about necessary work — I don’t wish to socialize with you in any way,” is *entirely* within your right to say and enforce, whether or not he likes it. “Do not sit next to me,” is entirely within your right to say and enforce unless there’s literally no other place where he can be or you can be. “I will not ride in your car anywhere under any circumstances — stop asking me to,” is entirely within your right to say and enforce. “I will not accept any gifts from you,” is entirely your right to say and enforce.

          It’s very like what Alison once said to someone whose boss “refused to accept their resignation,” == “He doesn’t have to accept it for you to resign!” This guy doesn’t have to accept your refusals for those refusals to be absolute. And if he continues doing things you’ve rightfully told him not to, you DO need to go to HR and make them deal with him.

        2. plausible deniability*

          Think carefully about whether there is someone at work you can enlist as an ally. I know this is really, really hard, and also risky. But maybe there is a colleague you can ask to sit next to you and not move, or come over to stand with you if he/she sees this guy approach. Simply having another person physically standing there with you can be very powerful.

    11. RestResetRule*

      I would be as direct as possible in this situation. If he touches you, say loudly and clearly, “Do not touch me.” No need to say please, make him understand he is crossing a line.

      1. Ama*

        Yup people who do this are absolutely betting you won’t make a public scene (I can almost guarantee that’s why he stroked your arm when you were on the phone, he was counting on you not wanting to interrupt your conversation to yell at him).

        1. HollyWeird*

          Thank you both. I also agree, there was also several other people outside our organization on the elevator with us so I think he was counting that I wouldn’t make a scene in front of other people as well.

            1. tangerineRose*

              Yeah, it’s perfectly reasonable to not want someone to stroke your arm. “Aaah, what are you doing? Stop that!” seems like an OK thing to say.

              1. plausible deniability*

                Yes. The surprised and creeped-out yelp of upsetness is actually *more* effective than a calm and professional, “Please stop touching me.” That calm and professional demeanor allows everyone to pretend it’s normal, while the surprised and creeped-out “Aaah! Are you touching me?! Stop!” points out how bizarre and creepy it is.

    12. Jean*

      “You are making me uncomfortable and your attention is unwanted and unwelcome. Please only speak to me when necessary for work matters. Thanks for understanding.”

      He will most likely protest/deny doing anything wrong. Doesn’t matter. You asked him and now he can’t claim to “not know.” If he keeps doing it, file a report. There’s no nice or easy way to deal with this, unfortunately. I’m sorry this is happening to you. I hope he gets a clue and stops.

    13. NW Mossy*

      I’ll add that it would be wise to red-flag this for your boss, too, assuming your relationship is at all decent. What you’ve described would absolutely be reportable harassment in my organization, especially given how many instances you’ve experienced in a short time.

      Further up today there’s a follow-up post from “Stephen!”, who’s facing a similar situation to yours. She told her boss about what was happening, and she’s now getting more support in dealing with it.

      1. HollyWeird*

        Just checked out Stephen!’s post from last week and the follow up today and saw a lot of my situation reflected in hers. It was good to read that she took action!

    14. foolofgrace*

      “I haven’t told anyone else on the team because while this makes me uncomfortable I don’t think it’s to the line of reporting it.”

      Actually, it IS at the line of reporting it. Try to list previous behaviors to get them clear in your mind, and keep a list of new instances of bad behavior. Documentation is often wanted and would be helpful.

    15. agnes*

      This is clearly unwelcome. You have told him so. Time to elevate it. If no one in your organization will assist you and take this seriously, call the EEOC.

    16. Em from CT*

      @HollyWeird, please also document this. Take screenshots of the conversations in your group chat when he insisted he drive you home even after you said no. Keep a written record of what he did and said when.

      1. Observer*

        Yes, document EVERYTHING. Keep a list of dates and what happened. And get screen capstures of EVERYHITNG – emails, texts, whatever messaging platform you use.

        1. HollyWeird*

          Thank you, I will start compiling dates of the past incidences for my documentation. Hopefully I have nothing new to add after today, ugh!

    17. emmelemm*

      This is waaaaay past the line of reporting it. I totally understand you’re in a good ol’boy type of situation and reporting it may not do any good, but be assured that this is BEYOND inappropriate.

    18. Wandering*

      Blech. The only thing I have to add is an edit to the fine advice you’ve received. I would not tell him he’s making you uncomfortable. I would stick to the rest – especially the no-is-a-complete-sentence – but not give him the satisfaction of expressing discomfort. He’s wildly inappropriate.

      Remember that as someone senior to him that your reporting this serves not just yourself but any peer or person junior to him. Remember that reporting him gives your company the opportunity to address this behavior directly. Being called on his garbage behavior gives him the opportunity to get his act together.

      You aren’t being hypersensitive, you’ve been extremely tolerant. It’s time to bring in appropriate supervision for him, for everyone’s sake.

    19. Stephen!*

      Having just reported an out of line coworker, let me say I have so much sympathy for what you’re going through. And your creeper has gone above and beyond mine. I was nervous about bringing it up- I work in a male dominated, kind of “macho” field, but my male supervisor did not dismiss my concerns. But with whatever you decide to do, best of luck and may creeper get what he deserves.

    20. Faith the Twilight Slayer*

      Christ on a cracker, what kind of frat boys are you working with? “OMG she reported someone for doing something wrong, I can’t believe we can’t continue being total dicks”… If you decide to report, make sure you mention the previous incident of people treating you badly, and let them know retaliation will probably happen and they need to ensure they shut that down before it even starts.

    21. Senor Montoya*

      It IS to the line of reporting it. It’s so far past the line that you need a telescope to see the line.

      Same advice I gave last week to the LW with the creepy coworker in the truck. Tell this creep to stop X behavior every time it happens, document the hell out of it, make sure you have a backup copy of the documentation, and don’t keep either copy at work:
      Bob, don’t touch me. It’s inappropriate and it makes me uncomfortable.
      Bob, stop talking to me about X Y Z. It makes me uncomfortable and it’s inappropriate.

      If Bob says you are being too sensitive, or he’s trying to be nice, or anything other than an embarrassed apology, you respond: Nevertheless, you need to stop.

      I’ll add too that he may stop for awhile and then start again, so do not get rid of your documentation. Keep it even after you or he is no longer working at your current employer.

      I’m so f’n enraged about your situation. What actual F, ya know? I’m 60 years old, I’m so ANGRY that this kind of crap is still going on. It’s not like he doesn’t know it’s wrong.

    22. Working Hypothesis*

      I really disagree that this isn’t “to the line of reporting it.” Stephen!’s situation (see above in thread for the update or last week for the original incident) was FAR less extreme than this, and was correctly seen as worth reporting. (NOTE: I am absolutely not minimizing the creep’s behavior in that instance — it was awful. This is EVEN MORE awful!! That is all.)

      You’re talking about someone who has touched you physically without your consent, made open pleas for your phone number after telling you he wants a girlfriend (!), treated you as if you already *were* his girlfriend (buying gifts, etc), and has “insisted” on getting you physically alone and under his control in his vehicle despite your explicit refusals.

      These behaviors are not “not yet up to the line of reporting.” These behaviors are outright harassment and need to be shut down by HR or the man’s boss, NOW. If you *are* the man’s boss, then it needs to go to YOUR boss, because you should not have to be the one handling this, as his victim.

      Report him. Let the dust fall where it falls. He’s more than earned it.

    23. Sleve McDichael*

      Nopetty nope nope! You need to get on your nopetopus and nope on out into the sunset. He’s been touching you and he’s been threatening to touch you. That is severe and combined with the other stuff is severe and pervasive. If anyone senior at your work has any sense they’ll see it’s a problem so you should definitely feel like you can report it if you want. Line CROSSED.

    24. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      Just cosigning that this is for sure creepy behaviour. Especially when he started stroking your arm out of the blue! Ewww!

    25. RagingADHD*

      “Fergus, Im not going to tell you again. No means no. We are coworkers, and I do not want anything else. Leave me alone.”

      If he brings a gift, take it to management or HR. If he tries to sit next to you, move.

      Document and report.

  11. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    I’m reading a NYTimes article on how inquality is exacerbated by big companies contracting out a lot of their work, and it’s making me wonder–how is this legal? These people are working set hours and obeying the directions of the corporation, but…they’re contracters? How? Why?
    Link in the comments

    2. Natalie*

      Pretty simple in this case – they’re contracting the work out to *other companies*, who employ the people who do the work. The rules you’re referring to are about the distinction between whether an individual is an employee or an independent contractor, they aren’t relevant when both parties involved are corporations.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yep. At my last company, I was a true independent contractor for ~8 months or so, then got “hired” by an agency to be a permatemp; the benefits were that they handled payroll and pay negotiations for me, but otherwise I had almost nothing to do with them – I worked for Big Company and they were just getting around classifying me as a “real” employee.

        1. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

          Hello, my entire professional history!

          Pharma in my area is pretty flush with permatemps, and many of these agencies somehow get around giving any health insurance or PTO at all. We get W2’s and “furloughs” when we’ve been in a job 2 years and hit the “hire or lay off” policy or law limit (though in R&D it’s unusual to get that far because every time a company wants to look like they’re spending less they shut off R&D for a month or two and re-hire.)

      2. Manders*

        Yes, this is how it works. It’s a bit confusing because there are some regions where people will refer to themselves as contractors at company A when they mean they’re employees of company B, and they’re functionally working for company A except for payroll and perks and chunks of unpaid time off to get around employment laws.

        1. Natalie*

          The contracting companies aren’t “getting around” any employment laws – there are no employment laws prohibiting the use of a contracting company. That company will be subject to the same local laws (paid sick time, higher minimum wages) as any other company operating in the area.

          There have been a few cases involving permatemps access to certain employment perks like preferential stock pricing, but those were based on contract law, not employment law, and IIRC were all settled so at present there is no binding precedent. Except potentially in California, land of exceptions.

          1. Manders*

            I’m in Washington State, where contractors are required to take a long unpaid break after a certain amount of time (18 months, I think?) because otherwise they’d be classified as employees. The law was passed to try to get companies to hire directly instead of treating contractors like employees for years on end, so I’d call that sort of workaround getting around the intent of the law even if it’s going by the letter of the law.

            Agreed that California probably has a big list of exceptions I’m not aware of.

            1. Natalie*

              It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s common practice in WA – Microsoft, of course, settled the largest and most expensive permatemp case, and there seem to be some regulations specific to municipal workers. But I’m not seeing any general laws prohibiting long term temps.

              1. CL Cox*

                But Microsoft was hiring the contractors directly, not contracting with a company who sent its employees to do the work.

    3. CL Cox*

      They are working set hours and following rules that their company negotiated with the client company. They are paid by their company, disciplined by their company, and their benefits are provided by their company. So, if my company outsources cleaning services, we can tell the company when we want their people to come and what requirements we have for the people they send (a certain clearance level or pass a background check because there are children in the building, even dress neatly), and we can even sometimes request a certain employee, but we really don’t have control over who they send, as long as the work’s getting done. And if we have an issue with one of their employees, we would call the company and have them handle it – for instance, if we are a no smoking facility and I see a contracted janitor smoking in the stairwell, I could remind him that smoking is not allowed, but if he continues or is rude to me, I would call his company and tell them that I don’t want him on our job again. Obviously, for more serious things like inappropriate behavior, mI’d call the police first, then call the company, but I can’t decde he’s going to get docked a day’s pay or get fired from his company.

    4. foolofgrace*

      Contractor for 20 years here — I liked the work and was well suited to it but I HATED being a contractor. The company negotiates rates that it pays to the contracting company and the contracting company supposedly takes care of PTO, insurance, etc., and when you ask for a raise you get the old line of “we aren’t being paid enough” and because you have to sign an agreement that if you quit the contracting company you can’t be considered to work for the company directly, you’re stuck. I bet my contracting companies get paid twice my salary but they pay the pittance they can get away with, and BTW they have crappy insurance. the Resentful? Me? I’m an actual employee now making less money but get the protections and benefits of an actual employee. And I also ran into that 18-month exclusion but it was not mandated by the state but by the company.

    5. corporate engineering layoff woo*

      Take a look at “Temp: how American work, American business, and the American dream became temporary” by Louis Hyman for some more history on how all of this came to be and is structured… It’s a pretty terrible situation, all driven by the pursuit of The Profit.

    6. skunklet*

      I’m a ‘contractor’ but to company B (hired by company A). I’m not a 1099, I’m a regular W-2 employee with a 401k, vacation time, health insurance, etc.
      it’s not at all horrible in THIS situation, but i have worked, about 15 yrs ago, as an actual temp, with zero benefits, so that sucked.

    7. Ann O.*

      I can’t read the link since NY Times has an effective paywall now. :)

      But there are two separate issues. One is how company’s outsourcing non-core roles affects income. Given that the headline is about janitors, I’m guessing this is the focus of the NY Times article.

      I have mixed feelings about this one because it honestly makes sense to me. Why should a typical company directly manage janitorial staff or food service staff or equivalents instead of contracting to a 3rd party vendor that specializes in this? I currently work in this type of position, so it’s not hypothetical for me. It’s possible that we do need better laws to regulate how the contractor/host company relationship happens (for example, I’m allowed to benefit from a lot of the host company’s pretty nice onsite employee perks, but I think this is the host company’s choice and not legally mandated), but I think that’s a different issue than whether this type of contracting should exist at all.

      Issue #2 is the misclassified contractors as a transparent dodge of paying for employee benefits. I have also been in that situation, and it’s complete BS. In that situation, my work was connected to the core company product. I was hired directly by the company. I was managed by an employee. However, I was put on payroll of an employment services agency and on paper treated as that agency’s employee. I think this was illegal, but the labor law was sufficiently murky that I still not clear whether my situation was actually illegal or just an unethical loophole. And even if it was actually illegal, it’s so widespread that there’s no obvious way to prevent companies from doing it (other than maybe clarifying the labor law, so more of us felt empowered to take companies to court about it).

  12. Asst4tW*

    I want to apply for a new internal position in my office this summer. It would be a step up for me financially and in the org. At what time would it be appropriate to discuss me applying with my boss? It seems so far away at this point to make any mention of it, plus we are in our busiest time of year. Any advice?

    1. Pam Beesly*

      I’d wait until the busy season is over but not wait too long after that. Your boss would likely appreciate as much notice as possible to help with the transition.

      1. Asst4tW*

        Our busy season runs from February-early May, with April as the craziest month. Should I wait until May?

          1. Asst4tW*

            It’s too early to know the date exactly. They said “summer” so likely starting in June when things are calmer.

    2. higheredrefugee*

      As your busy season is so long, I’d try to grab your boss for a quick 10 minute chat now so maybe he can shift any exposure or work to you that might help you land the position. You can only do that with a supportive boss, and you can’t assume you’ll get the position, but your boss may have insight on how to help you shine in the application process and he can be storing up all the great things you’re doing during the busy season without your prompting when he has to serve as your reference.

    3. Emilitron*

      How much discussion do you need? Maybe the serious long conversation can wait till after the busy season, but I’d really encourage you to say something now. “Hey boss, I heard them mention the other day about the new Llama Groomer position, have you got 10 minutes today or tomorrow that I can ask you about that?” – or ideally if you’ve got regular check-ins, just tack that “let me ask you about that” on the end of a regular chat. And you ask how certain it is to happen, whether the role is as you understood it to be, and whether boss agrees that could be a good next step for you. But keep it a 10-minute conversation – basically you’ve expressed interest – and maybe tack on the end let’s talk about it more in May. Now when boss hears something, they will think of you; maybe that means mention your name when it’s discussed at upper-level, or maybe it means just to tell you whenever they hear any news about it, and will make sure the position doesn’t get canceled or filled without you knowing it.
      Then after the busy season you schedule a longer block of their time to really talk about the position. What are the tasks and skills, and how does that match up to what boss knows about you, what else you can do to demonstrate that. What aspects of you being interested do they think are a great fit and what do they see as less so (sometimes that’s things for you to work on, sometimes it’s caution about the position). Organizational stuff – who’s involved and what they’re like to work with, who you need to impress and what they’re impressed by, etc.
      But it all starts with you telling them you’re interested, and now’s not too early for that, nor does it take much time.

    4. Grapey*

      I would mention it sooner rather than later and agree to stay on your team through your busy season. Your boss will be grateful and be a good reference in the future, and it will also give you the opportunity to create documentation if anyone else is taking over your role.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have one caveat, just be sure you know your boss. Do you work for somebody who will support you in career development even if that means you leave the department? Or do you work for someone who takes it as a personal attack when an employee moves on?

  13. Workerbee*

    Should I keep trying to change my meeting-heavy work culture, or just accept it’s a bad fit for me? This is a little ranty but also an appeal for help!

    We have meetings, it seems, for everything. Meetings to watch someone move items in our project management tool from one date to another. Meetings for “discovery” on a new idea somebody has. Meetings to pick around on our analytics program with “I wonder what this does?” mused out loud. Meetings to dump every facet of a concept on a document.
    Even if some of these sound normal, I’ve found that these are rarely productive meetings and are more just a lot of people talking at length and repetitively, or the “Or what about this?” tangent that actually doesn’t have anything to do with the matter at hand. And if the boss is in a meeting, he will spend anywhere from fifteen minutes to a half hour talking about how we need to be sure what we’re talking about is worth the effort. With metaphors and analogies.

    Rarely do any of these meetings end on time, which makes people late to the next meeting, which then runs late itself. Some of these meetings are with clients!

    Yet it seems that nobody really cares: They will sit and keep ideating as if there is nothing else to do that day. Whoever called the meeting may finally say, “Well, we’re over time,” but then that just segues into “wrapping up” which can take an additional five minutes as people scramble to issue “next steps” or pontificate one last time. (I may be being unfair as to their motives; I do think I’m working with wonderful, brilliant people, but I am exhausted!)

    With all these meetings, I don’t know when I’m supposed to get any actual work done! I can have as many as five meetings a day most days of the week, averaging to an hour each. I try not to call meetings myself, or if I do, it’s in the name of blocking off time so myself and a colleague can get something done.

    I’m honestly feeling that maybe nobody actually wants to get things done and this is how they cover that up. Yet we have deliverables and customers that depend on them, and more than half the time we seem to be missing our deadlines and not fulfilling promises. A small example: When I respond to a customer email within the same day (as I’m usually in a meeting and can’t do it immediately), I get back a “Wow! Thank you for responding so quickly!”

    I’m about six months into this job, and this culture was not apparent during my interviews, which included meeting the team, who were all present in the rather open-concept layout. I saw what I perceived to be an open collaborative culture; everybody seemed happy, engaged, and working on a great mission.

    The company uses Skype and reply-all emails, but otherwise does not have open collaboration tools. I have tried to introduce collaboration options–when what’s really needed is simple communication, do you really need to book an hour to discuss it?–but have had very small success.

    I suspect the low adoption rate is due to the fact that the boss, who takes enthusiastic notes every time I bring up the fact that we have too many meetings with low productivity, and agrees wholeheartedly with me that we should explore different means, has no intention of changing. I get the same “make sure it justifies the effort” speech every time. Which, sure, but without leadership buy-in, the rest won’t adopt it either. And of course, there’s the fact that this culture has been going on far longer than I’ve been there.

    The questions teaming in my mind are:
    –Should I continue trying to plug away at changing our meeting culture? If so, do you have any tips that worked for you?
    –Should I try to change my work ethic and accept that some (or a lot of) things aren’t going to get done and that’s magically okay?
    –Is this an unfixable culture?
    –Is this a bad fit for me despite sincerely liking the people and mission, and I should start looking elsewhere?

    1. I'm that person*

      Since you have Skype can you call into meetings? I am only needed at about half of the meetings that I am invited to so I call in from my desk and work with one ear open in case anything that is useful to me is said.

      1. Workerbee*

        I can do that at least! It does help being able to work on things on the sly, as it were, on mute (and if I don’t have video on, or can act like I’m taking copious notes).

        1. Workerbee*

          I did not clarify and should have: I can do that when I’m working remotely, which thankfully I’d negotiated for a couple days a week. In-house, there’s the expectation that you meet in person…even if the meeting doesn’t really have much to do with you. I still have managed to work on stuff while perfecting the Nod of Agreement and other indicators that I’m listening.

    2. Mockingjay*

      I think it’s unfixable. I, too, work in a meeting-heavy culture and our project is a year behind.

      I have a meeting this afternoon to discuss a draft brief for a planned technical meeting that is not required for this project. We pointed this out to the Project Lead, and he replied, “Great! Let’s discuss it this afternoon!”
      (I wish I was making this up.)

      What I have found is on this particular program (I am a government contractor, the problem stems with the government program and staff I support, not my wonderful company), is that there is a real reluctance by leadership to make binding decisions and hold people accountable – for project progress against the schedule, for budget overruns, wanting to reinvent the wheel because engineering is fun and reusing a proven test method is not…

      My company is aware of these particular issues, but it’s up to the government managers to fix this. I’m not in a position to change the culture, so I focus on completing my work on time and keeping very good records, and let the rest go. I also reach out for additional work within my company, assisting short term projects, which keeps my skills and work ethic noticeable if I want to transfer to another area of the company.

      1. Mockingjay*

        I also dial into most meetings, rather than attend in person. I put the phone on mute while I work on something else at my desk. I also decline meetings when I can (this is a know your org type thing – I can usually skip meetings held by peers, but certain weekly meetings with project leadership are mandatory.)

    3. WellRed*

      One thing: If you have a meeting at 10 with ideating workers, and one at 11 with clients, I see no reason not to excuse yourself politely, but I don’t know how that would fly at your office.

      1. foolofgrace*

        That’s what I was going to say. Quietly leave. Maybe choose your seat to be near the door so you can slip out.

      2. SomebodyElse*

        This… I work in a meeting heavy culture, but for us it’s perfectly reasonable and acceptable to drop from a meeting (or leave) if there is another more important one. You can gently announce at the beginning that you have a hard stop at 11 for a client meeting and then quietly leave at that time.

    4. Amy Sly*

      Sounds like there’s a leadership vacuum with regard to meetings, with two separate problems:
      a) some of the meetings are not needed.
      b) the meetings do not accomplish what they are supposed to accomplish.
      You’ve talked to your boss, with him trying to tackle the problem by just asking “do we really need a meeting about this?” Even if everyone got buy-in on only having needed meetings, it wouldn’t solve the disorganization problem at the meetings themselves.

      I’d suggest pushing back on the second, more than the first. For one, these people do seem to like getting together and having input. That’s a cultural thing that will be very hard to change. Second, it’s something that you can work on yourself, instead of trying to get other people to change their behavior.

      You can do this in two ways. First, whenever you call a meeting, role-model the leadership behavior you want to see: have a defined agenda, come in with all the necessary background information as handouts/email, have a time-frame in mind for discussion, redirect tangents, and then save time for a wrap up where you announce the decision or at least make sure everyone understands their action items to be completed before the next meeting.

      The second technique is a bit more risky, but could pay off for you: take charge of other people’s meetings. Do those same behaviors mentioned above: know what the agenda ought to be, do at least a little background research so you can make informed comments, redirect tangents to focus on the nominal leader and their topic (“Bob, that’s an important point about X, but Jane called this meeting to discuss Y; do you think Tom’s and Suzy’s point is a good one?”), and try to synthesize the suggestions and summarize the meeting (“So it sounds like we need to do X, right Jane?”).

      Like I said, this is risky. It could be that some other folks are frustrated by formless meetings and find your proactive leadership helpful in getting work done; it could be that you get seen as a controlling busybody. You know your job better than we do. But even if you don’t try to push other meetings forward, taking control of your own and role modeling good behavior will help.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        I do this a lot… even if it’s not my meeting I’ll do a time check towards the end “Well, it looks like we have about 5 min left, should we recap and make sure we get to next steps?”

        It’s very effective!

        1. Amy Sly*

          My dad taught me the importance of doing it as a way of looking better and exhibiting “management potential.” It also ties into the sales technique of “Always Be Closing”: take charge of the conversation and keep it focused on your goals.

    5. NW Mossy*

      While you may not be able to change the broader culture, you can certainly wrestle back control of your own calendar! It sounds like you could readily get your boss to agree to you doing any and all of the following:

      * You don’t have to accept every meeting invite you get – decline the ones you can reasonably anticipate to be low-value for you. Ask for agendas, or even just a clear list of “this is what we’re here to accomplish.”
      * Block off time on your calendar for your own independent work, and decline conflicts. Set these up as recurring to train people that you’re just not available at certain times.
      * Leave meetings on time. Literally just get up and go with a friendly wave. Heck, leave them early if they’re not going anywhere.
      * Use your contributions to drive the meeting forward. I can’t tell you how weirdly effective it is to be the one who says “sounds like we have a decision on X” or “for next steps, Lucinda will do Y and Fergus will do Z and report back by Thursday.”

      1. Shirley Keeldar*

        I was going to chime in with something similar–is there a place between “change my workplace’s culture” and “just give in,” a place called, “no, thanks, not me?” Can you say, “No, thanks, I don’t need to attend that, I’m comfortable with what I know about our analytics program”? Or quietly to the meeting organizer, “Just fyi, I have to be out of here at 11:00 on the dot”? Or “Excuse me, I don’t think my input is going to be valuable here and I have a deadline, so I’m going to slip out”? Or just slip out?

        Some of this obviously depends on how senior you are and if your boss will have your back. Good luck! What you describe sounds horrible to me; I’d be tearing my hair out. Talking about work does not get work done!

      2. Auntie Social*

        Leaving early is good. I know someone who goes to meetings for half an hour. Either the meeting is really productive and it’s zipping along, or it’s a rehash of last week and he says “I have a conference call” and excuses himself. If he has to present something he says he needs to do his presentation by 9:00 so he can take a call by 9:30. And the funny thing is, people really pay attention to his segments because they know he won’t waste THEIR time.

    6. KMK*

      I think getting out will be best for your sanity.

      In my last job my grandboss didn’t think anything got accomplished unless the calendar was full of meetings. There was a day when she literally told me to schedule daily meetings for three workgroups on a project for three weeks, and then weekly meetings for another three groups. We’re talking over 50 meetings with director-level people and above. It took over three hours to do this (I’m a project manager. I begged for there to be a coordinator in the PMO, but was turned down flat). I had to spend half of the next two days apologizing to people. The vendor ended up backing out of most of the meetings. All this did was piss people off.

      I’m gone from that job and I’m now in a culture where people’s time is much more respected.

    7. Jdc*

      I once has 7 one hour each meetings over the color of a free pen. I just walked out of the last one, not the last one that occurred but the last one I attended. I felt that since I was low on the totem pole I didn’t have the right to decline a meeting. Eventually I realized I was allowed to say no and prioritize my other work.

      We had a ton of meetings there regardless of that insanity. I couldn’t do it. I don’t mind meetings but it was three full days a week of non stop meetings. I couldn’t do it. I moved on.

      If you can start saying no, great, if not I’d say start job searching.

    8. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Oh, the joy of having meetings to discuss what you’re going to discuss at the next meeting. I feel for you! It’s probably just the company culture and, unfortunately, if everyone is going along with it, there probably isn’t much you can do, especially since you haven’t been there very long. Taking the necessary meetings out of the picture, some people use meetings to make it look like they’re getting something done. Some have them to make the day go by faster. For others, that is their social life.

      I once worked on a team where we had so many conference calls each day, often lasting two hours each. My colleagues didn’t seem to mind because they said it made the day fly by. I couldn’t stand it. It was definitely a culture clash.

      You might want to see if there is a way you can get your work done during the meetings if it won’t get you into trouble. If not, once you’ve been there for about a year, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to start looking elsewhere.

  14. Breaking in to Data Science*

    I’m interested in hearing from anyone with experience in attending one of those data science “bootcamps” or similar program. I’m considering it, but it’s a lot of money, and I’d have to quit my job, so it’s a big risk and I’m unsure of the reward. I’m looking at NYC Data Science Academy’s 12 week online program.

    I’m an applied cultural anthropologist (PhD, mid-career) currently working in healthcare. I currently do basic quantitative data analysis (in Excel) and have extensive experience with qualitative research and analysis. I’m thinking that I will be more marketable and likely higher compensated with more “hard” data analytic skills. I minored in computer science a zillion years ago, so I’m not unfamiliar with programming, just very rusty. I’m feeling a little “stuck” in my current role without anywhere to move up.

    If anyone out there has done a data science bootcamp, I’d love to hear your experience and what you got out of it!

    1. Cinnamon*

      I can’t help you out unfortunately but I looked into Penn State’s coding bootcamp and I was expected to pay the full amount ($8,000+) by the end of the 2 months which would absolutely not have worked for me so I passed. In a little wary of these bootcamps but I also went to a for profit college.

    2. Spork*

      Having graduated from a data science masters program recently, I strongly suggest that you look at job placement / success stories / etc for the data science bootcamp. A lot of intensive technical bootcamps can deluge someone with a firehose of technologies, and you’ll handle R and Scala and Hadoop and MongoDB and Keras and Matlab and Python and Spark and etc etc etc, but you’ll be competing for jobs with people not only from boot camps but also who are coming out of masters programs. A lot of bootcamps are well-intentioned but end up producing candidates who have paid $$$$$ for three months and then end up struggling to earn comparable dollars to what they had before, especially if they’re mid-career and aren’t earning entry-level salaries.

      This is not to talk you out of it, but just to encourage you to dig more into the results of the bootcamp. Of course their marketing material will claim “98% working in the industry!” which might be as vague as “they got a helpdesk job at a tech company, so that’s ‘in the industry'”.

      1. Breaking in to Data Science*

        This is really helpful, and also my fear! Having already done a PhD and having several years of industry experience, I don’t really want to go back for another Masters, but I also don’t want to get suckered into paying thousands of dollars for a program that doesn’t get me the results I’m looking for. Basically, I don’t want to go from being a mid career senior individual contributor to an entry level data job. I’m really interested in using new tech skills to further the types of analytical projects I can design theoretically, but I lack the programming/math experience to carry out on my own. I’m wary that doing a bootcamp might set me up not for taking on these larger projects, but just to go back to entry level data queries, which doesn’t interest me at all.

        1. Catwoman*

          My two-cents on this is that you already have the educational background for this type of thing, so maybe try focusing on a job where you can hone your technical skills?

          I’m currently a data analyst at a university and my highest education is a Master’s degree in arts administration (so not quantitative at all!). I got into it by learning to use Tableau in a different position at the university and moved into roles with greater and greater focus on analysis as I improved my Tableau skills. There is still a lot that I don’t know, but my current role gives me the space to experiment with programming (SQL, R) in the company of database developers and data scientists who are very skilled in this area and help me out.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          You might consider a local Community College instead of a boot camp.

          The key thing for computer skills is *using* them. Since your job doesn’t require that, the next best thing is a certification. Most community colleges have classes geared towards industry certifications (eg, Java OCAJP). They cost 1/10th boot camps, you can do them part time, you can sometimes do them remotely, and you can search for ways to use the new skills in your current job.

    3. Elizabeth Proctor*

      There was a thread about this in a recent open thread, I think. You might want to see if you can search the thread to find it. The person had a great experience but also had some insights about who this would be the best fit for.

    4. MissGirl*

      I did a masters of analytics in 18 months at a regular university. I was completely switching careers.

      1. MissGirl*

        I just saw your posting about not wanting another degree. I’m also in data analytics in healthcare. Can you do online coding like Udemy or Pluralsight to boost your technical basics? With that and your network, I would think you get into a decent analytical role and boost your skills from then on.

        I got into my job (mid level) with a basic SQL and R ability. I learned more in the first few months than any camp could teach but I needed the basics to get the job.

    5. we're basically gods*

      I did a web development bootcamp, so maybe things are different, but are there any programs that would allow you to keep your job? I looked at two different bootcamps– one would be a 12 week one that was 40 hours a week, and one was 6 months and was 10 hours a week, all outside of traditional office job hours. I went with the latter so I could keep working. I wonder if you might feel more confident about the bootcamp if you could keep working through it?

      1. Tea*

        I’m looking into web development bootcamps/ training. Would you mind sharing which one you did and what you thought of it?

    6. AnonAcademic*

      If you have previous programming experience I would try using free/cheap resources to learn online and generate a code/project portfolio, before quitting your job for more training. I think coding bootcamps are wildly overrated honestly (live and work in Silicon Valley) given that you can self-teach most of the major open source programs (R and python in particular). My partner recently self-taught himself python so that he could have a code sample to support a switch to a different subfield, it took him about a month to learn to basic proficiency using Udemy, and he was able to switch jobs based on the code he wrote (which was a simple process improvement kind of thing, but with some nice optimizations).

    7. yodaismyboo*

      Look into graduate certificates. You typically only need to have a Bachelor’s degree to qualify, through some of the more technical programs will also look for previous coursework (e.g., statistics, coding) or work experience. They’re usually about 5 classes (15 credits), so about half the commitment of a master’s degree, and they’re easy to do part-time (so you can keep your day job). At a lot of universities, you can also sign up as a non-degree-seeking student–just take some classes, see if you like the curriculum, etc. Arizona State University has some really interesting health informatics programs (as one example of many).

    8. AcademiaNut*

      Given your background, you might have better luck with a program designed for PhD researchers to transition into data science, rather than a general boot camp. I have a couple of former colleagues who did that, and went straight to 6 figure jobs in Silicon Valley. The internship was more centred around building a portfolio than straight training.

      Otherwise, I’d look into part time on line coding courses. Given your background you should be experienced at working on stuff independently. Spend some time learning some solid python or R, and bringing your statistics up, and work on developing a portfolio. Solid experience in research and analysis is really valuable, and something that a boot camp just can’t teach.

      1. kt*

        I might agree here. I recently transitioned from academia to data sci in industry (doubled my pay, woot!) and I did it not by doing a bootcamp, but by starting to teach seminars and workshops using Python and R and incorporating that into my teaching as well. I had the luxury of doing a lot of baby-data-sci in my day job, which helped. I took a lot of Coursera and Udacity courses, and then put what I learned to work in my work context. This built a portfolio of projects and skills that has been useful.

        In some ways you might be in a similar position. Solid Excel skills really help, still, in many business data sci contexts. Another avenue is to start developing your PowerBI etc skills and move to that midpoint (business analytics/intelligence?) — but that seems to mean really different things at different companies. If you could start automating some of your data cleaning tasks by using SQL/R/pandas in Python; if you could start doing your data exploration in Rstudio or in Jupyter notebooks; if you could start with simple dashboarding apps in RShiny — all these are useful data-sciency skills that you can leverage into a job where you can learn more on your own or from other people.

        I interview a lot of people for data science and related positions. Interviewed a woman recently with no formal data sci education, just a math bachelors and a ton of experience doing nasty SQL stuff for two previous employers — great hire, expanding her skills, taking things on. Interviewed a guy with a data science bootcamp under his belt (at least he said he does…) — he seems to have learned some Python somewhere but is just truly unfamiliar with anything that’s not served up to him with a csv file and a pre-assembled Anaconda environment with a GUI, and he doesn’t know the statistics or math part either. He simply didn’t learn the skills from this data science bootcamp to do data science in our environment, and I will not look favorably on this bootcamp’s graduates in the future. You’re in a position where you can sell your actual demonstrated experience doing things with data, and I’d suggest leveling up your technical skills using online or local evening courses, going to Meetups (R users groups, Python users groups, women coders groups if you’re female, machine learning groups — in my city some host weekend study sessions), and simultaneously building a portfolio and real-life connections especially if you want to stay where you are geographically. Your skills are valuable and you’re 80% there. So many people I interview can run XGBoost but can’t figure out what could possibly be wrong with this dataset (oh they administered the survey on a day when the sports teams were off for a team building thing so no jocks were surveyed… oh, it turns out everyone uses this entry field as a placeholder and then just puts the real value in the text notes field next to it…)

        If you want to move to Silicon Valley or NYC (assuming you’re not there yet) then do an in-person program there, sure.

    9. CrazyKetoLady*

      I finished a data visualization and analytics boot camp in November. Prior to that, I had been in education. I have a Master’s in a subject related to the one that I have been teaching and designing curricula for.

      I learned a ton and was able to do some pretty cool things, but finding my first position was really tough: nearly all of the jobs (including entry-level) require a graduate degree in a quantitative field and 2+ years of experience. I wound up going through a recruiter and have a contract position that is going to involve a bit of business analytics. (Note that my jobs before have involved analysis, but mostly as a soft skill: I didn’t need to generate reports or anything like that.)

      Many of my classmates were actually getting their tuitions paid by their employers, who were investing in their growth within the company. Is there any chance that your employer would get on board with that for you? Healthcare analytics is a huge field, and I am hoping to wind up there eventually.

      I imagine that you may have an easier time finding a position than I did, given that you’re doing some work with analytics tools, but a boot camp certificate isn’t a sufficient qualification in most cases.

      Also, might you be able to do a part time boot camp? You wouldn’t need to quit your job, though you might want to try to go part time if you can. My boot camp was six months (ten hours in class a week plus homework).

  15. Stan Bark*

    When my organization sends rejection letters to internal candidates for positions, they always include — as the last sentence of the email — the person from the organization who got selected for the position. (They just state who was chosen; they don’t explain why.)

    Is this a normal practice? I mean, since it’s all internal, we’d find out who got the position soon enough anyway, but… I’ve never worked at any other place that does this. It seems like an invitation to try to compare yourself against the person who got the position, and a morale-killer if for some reason the person chosen is perceived as less qualified than yourself. Just curious.

    1. Turtlewings*

      They probably just figure you’re going to find out anyway, so as a courtesy they spare you the effort of trying to dig around and find out. You could argue that it would be weird for them to be coy with the information. They know full well everyone’s first question is going to be “well, who DID get it?” and since it’s not a secret, they might as well put it out there.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Whenever I was turned down for an internal promotion, I was told in person by the hiring manager. A couple of those experiences were very helpful as they included some good feedback about next steps and interview skills (one was TERRIBLE and I’ve written a bit about that one here) and usually timed so that I was told before the official announcement went out. Looking back, there was reasoning as to who the other candidate was picked over me which was only helpful or reassuring about 50% of the time.

      1. Salty Admin*

        Man, being told in person would be nice! A while ago I was approached by a different department in my company and was told that they had a new position opening up and they knew the good work I do and thought I would be a great fit. Seemed like an exciting opportunity and they asked me personally to apply so I thought that was a good sign. I was the first to interview and they told me that had FIVE other interviews to conduct before they would choose the top 2 candidates for second interviews. So I was trying to wait patiently, but since I’m an executive assistant I decided to check the outlook calendars of the rooms where I know HR holds interviews. Low and behold the second interviews were already scheduled. I didn’t get any sort of rejection until someone had accepted the job and then I just got a form letter emailed to me saying the position had been filled. I’d known for over 2 weeks at that point! I still feel kind of salty that the lady that asked me personally to apply never reached out to tell me why I wasn’t chosen.

    3. Mrs Peaches*

      I haven’t seen that included in a rejection notice before. Over a couple years I applied for several internal positions in an attempt to outrun the cycle of layoffs in my department. I received the rejection email, and then a couple days later the congratulatory mass email informing everyone of who was selected – which felt like a double-whammy. The one time my manager did immediately tell me who was selected, I was grateful because I had time to process the disappointment and comparison all at once and move on.

    5. Formerly in HR*

      Here it is done for unionised roles, as the rejected candidates could grieve the hiring (they can see the winner’s seniority and can compare with their own, since this is one of the major factors in selection).

    6. andy*

      Probably to cut on rumors and gossip. It is not exactly transparency, but much better then having people guess who won from randomly overheard hints.

  16. in the file room*

    This week our office got into it over pets in the workplace… via reply all to the all-office distribution list! It went on for two days, even after one of the senior managers pointed out that we’re subject to national policy that prohibits non-service animals. The only really good reply was that if people brought their cats, we might finally get the mouse problem under control….

    I was just excited to see my first reply-all mess in the wild!

    1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I really hope that people started replying with photos of their pets. That would make my day.

    3. Anno Spider Story*

      Tangent warning ahead: a coworker once brought in their pet tarantula – all fuzzy and leggy and BIG! It was in it’s cage, but dear lord. Their house was getting painted and they didn’t want it exposed to the fumes.
      Following week; new no pets policy.

      1. Windchime*

        I would seriously have to work from home that week. I hate spiders and would be a crying, anxious mess if I saw one that big at work (or anywhere).

  17. Kalesniffer*

    Is anyone else a Business Office Manager in a skilled nursing facility? At my facility I’m in charge of accounts receivable, HR, and payroll. I’m new to this job and am wondering if it’s normal to constantly have a full work load that never gets whittled down. My previous work experience definitely set me up to be able to handle this role but I’m used to having some downtime. I’m a fast, organized worker who’s used to getting my work completed quickly so I can catch up on work that’s been on the back burner. With this role it seems like there are constantly fires cropping up that need to be put out, from revamping our entire employee list to match corporate’s new guidelines (to be done in less than a week!) to mailing out a bunch of duplicate W2s to former employees who are just now calling with their new addresses, a week after we sent the originals to the addresses we had on file. All of that while keeping up with the regular, daily work of the job, which is enough to fill a 40-hour week on its own. I don’t mind working hard and being busy but I would love just one afternoon where I can finally type up my training notes and organize my files. I’ve tried to give myself some time to settle into the role and, after five months, I feel like I understand the pacing, what to prioritize, and how to efficiently get things done. But the additional work just never stops coming! Is this just how the job is? If you also work as a BOM, are you happy with the job? Any tips on how to stay sane?

    1. Eether Eyether*

      My job is completely different from yours, but can you bring in a temp to help with some of the paperwork? I know how frustrating it is to have work sitting there just waiting for you attention.

    2. CTT*

      I don’t work in a SNF but I’m a lawyer who does a lot of SNF transactions, and 80% of the time there is some sort of back office agreement in place – either with a third party or an affiliate of the owner. Is the SNF small or is this the only one that the owner owns? It would probably be difficult to convince them to hire a back office service, but you should lay out how much work you’re doing and ask if it would be feasible to hire someone to help.

    3. WearingManyHats*

      I have a very similar role at a software company and it took me a year to get into the groove (and a lot of that was creating the groove, as there were no processes). I’ve been here for nearly 2 years now and this week is the first where I’ve had more than 2 days in a row to take care of my own admin/filing work. I got all my processes completed early, but since it’s the end of January I’m waiting for the shoe to drop! I am looking for an HR Generalist position, as I feel like my growth has stagnated. I read the AAM comments to remind me of how good I have it! :D

    4. Koala dreams*

      I think it’s quite normal in this kind of job to need quite a long time to get into the job. Some tasks only come up a few times a year, or only once a year, and then you feel that they just come from nowhere. Next year, you will be expecting them and it will not feel as stressful. It’s of course also possible that the work load is too big for one person and you might need a part time worker or even a full time worker to assist you.

    5. DBI*

      Where you in healthcare before? I don’t have experience with your particular role, but for healthcare in general, this is very very common.

    6. Llamas@law*

      I am a lawyer and work with a lot of SNF business office managers on Medicaid appeals, etc. your experience sounds spot on to the industry. It’s a really overwhelming job.

      1. Janet*

        I work in finance at a home office for SNFs, this sounds very normal. I am actually wondering if we work for the same organization.

  18. Lalalala*

    I’m starting a new job in a few weeks (!) in Major City 1, and just found out that a prominent member of my new team (though not my manager) are moving to Major City 2 in the next year, and there’s discussion of having more of my team there in the future. I have long wanted to move to Major City 2, and would love to throw my name in the hat if they’re considering who should move, but I really don’t want to give the impression that I’m not excited about working with team in Major City 1 (because I am!). My current plan is to wait a few months until I’m settled, and then mention to my manager that I’d be interested in moving to the Major City 2 office at some point in the future, but it’s by no means urgent. Is there some other way I should handle this? Wait longer? Mention it only if it comes up? I am incredibly excited about this company and role and all my coworkers, so I don’t want to give the impression that I’m already thinking about switching things up, but I also want to let them know that they can send me to Major City 2 if they need staff there, as I’d be thrilled to go.

    The company headquarters is in Major City 1, but has offices in Major Cities 2, 3, and 4, and the work isn’t location-dependent.

    1. Fibchopkin*

      I’d wait. It will surely come up in conversation or at a meeting and you can then say “I’ve always wanted to live there! I love it here, but if the opportunity to move there opens up, I’d definitely be open to it.” If you were my new hire, or a new member of our management team and one of your first acts would be to tell me/our manager that you want to move to another city to join a team that is still only a concept, I’d wonder if you were already applying to other jobs in that city and already actively trying to get there, and just accepted the current job as a place holder until you could get to where you really want to be.

      1. Lalalala*

        Thank you for your response! To be clear, we have a large office in Major City 2 already, it’s not just a concept, it’s more that 75% of my team is in my city currently and 25% are in Major City 2, but I have heard that they are slowly trying to get it to more of a 50-50 split. But I think you’re right, I’ll mention it if it comes up but otherwise wait.

        1. Fibchopkin*

          Ah- yes, sorry, didn’t read carefully enough! That does make it a bit different, but I’d still wait a bit. It would be a good idea to get the pulse a little better on this and see if they really are actively looking to even out the amount of team members in each city, or if that’s just hearsay. If it comes up and your supervisor mentions wanting to increase the number of team members in City 2, that’s when I’d pipe up and express a willingness to move. The difference in perception there would be pretty big for me- like asking about it straight away would make me wonder if you’re already trying to get something in City 2, but mentioning your interest in context would be more likely ot leave me thinking “Oh cool! She’s flexible and I have an option here”

    2. Jenn*

      I would lean toward mentioning it if it comes up organically and phrase it as “I heard about that possibility and I would be open to moving to Major City 2 if that’s the direction the company decides to go.” Otherwise, I think I’d go with your original plan of waiting a few months. But I’d still use the phrasing of “open to moving” as it makes you look flexible and a “team player” willing to do what the job needs.

      1. Elizabeth Proctor*

        This. I wouldn’t say “I’ve always wanted to move to MC2” or something like that, because it puts too much of a priority on the location. If you wanted to be a little more assertive you could say “I would be interested in…” instead of “open to…”

    3. CL Cox*

      What everyone else said. Plus, if they are looking to split your team, with you supervising all of them from one location, then down the road you could always bring up the possibility of supervising from City 2 rather than City 1.

    4. Anono-me*

      I agree that you don’t want to bring up a move with your manager out of the blue right away.

      However, if other people on your team are discussing the the possibility that they might be asked to move to City 2 , I think it would be prudent for you to sound mildly enthusiastic about it. Things like: “I think it might be fun to live in City 2.” Or “City 2 has a lot of great things to offer.” Or ” I have family in City 2, so I spend a lot of time there already and really like it.”

      That way when moving to City 2 is discussed, other people will suggest you as one of the people to consider for the move. (Especially the other people who don’t want to move will suggest you as one who might be happy to make move.)

  19. Corgo*

    I posted on the 1/4 Friday thread about another manager not doing their work so some things were falling to me and her boss didn’t care and expected me to pick up her slack. Link for context in a reply. This is what’s been going on:

    1. Lemur, Zebra and I are in a group chat. We’ve been chatting and Lemur told us that she corrects her team’s work herself even if it means calling the client herself because she deosn’t want to go back and forth with the team member. The SOP here is that your staff does the work ad you review it. If it’s wrong, you tell them why and what you need–basically you are coaching them on the right questions to ask and they are the poc with the client. 

    2. In our managerial meetings with our senior dept managers, Hippo & Possum, Lemur said she calls clients for other teams. Completely bypassing the procedure we’ve carefully set up. it’s a big deal in our company for someone to not follow the process. 

    3. Lemurs team is also requesting over time which Hippo signed off on–we were shocked because her team has the most people and least amount of work. Zebra and I have more work but our teams haven’t needed OT. 

    Normally I wouldn’t care about a coworker and MMOB but VP handpicked Lemur and VP hates me for some reason and will find any reason to put me/my team down. Its…unfair. Yes it sounds childish but there you go. I feel like it’s grossly unfair.

    Possum, my direct manager, is very supportive of me and understanding. We are frustrated about all of this, but its something bigger and out of our hands. I’m going on FMLA later this year, and while I am away I plan to job search. I do love my job, my team, my coworkers and my boss, but the discrepancy in treatment is maddening. 

    2. tangerineRose*

      Generally if someone else’s boss wants me to pick up the slack for their report, I tell them I have to run it by my boss first. Since Lemur’s boss seems to be your grandboss, that might not work though.

  20. Amethyst*

    No question, just a vent.

    I HATE Aetna for the week. They’ve been reprocessing hundreds of thousands of claims from the last year because they processed them originally under our old contract. So we’ve been dealing with a HUGE influx of takebacks and repayments, all of which have to be done manually since our system goes *bzzt* when this happens. I worked on one $8200 check for FOUR DAYS, y’all. For context, that would normally take me an hour to do. And I’m over $39.20 and can’t find it because I’ve been staring at this check for four days. I have a coworker looking at it now.

    AND I got the lucky draw and pulled yet another Aetna batch yesterday after I posted the remainder of the one that took me four days. I’m over $52.70 with that and I’m flipping ALL the tables. Eating lunch now and then I’m gonna go back to it.

    Cross your fingers I find the money. We have to close end of month on Monday. *facepalm*

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      OMG my head hurts just thinking about your struggle right now.

      I hate them for you. I almost had a mental break when I saw a payment come through from Mega Corp Who Shall Not Be Named that doesn’t even send remittance all the time, has impossible to reach AP given their 90807 divisions and in general…loves to make life hard [fun fact, I get to send massive overpayments to unclaimed properties on their behalf every 3 years, bless their hearts…]

      Thankfully I figured that one out by some miracle, thankfully I picked the right two combinations out of sheer dumb luck.

      1. Amethyst*

        Thanks. It’s utterly overwhelming. A coworker told me she got today’s Aetna batch & discovered she has to manually post an entire $8000 check because NOTHING, literally nothing, can be posted automatically.

        Your experience with Mega Corp sounds like one of the insurance companies we deal with on a daily basis. We were able to fax over EOB requests (because they’re effin’ idiots & don’t send EOBs with their checks, AND don’t make them available on their website either) & we’d get responses within a week with all the ones we needed. Now it takes 23785749 phone calls & multiple conversations to even get a SINGLE ONE. (I’m looking at you, Emblem Health/GHI/HIP.)

        We are OVER this week. I’d be drinking wine right now except I’m too broke to afford a bottle, so I’m wistfully imagining drinking a glass right now.

        On the bright side, the $8200 check finally balanced with the coworker’s help. The second one I did: I found all but 30 cents of it. So I’ll be back at it on Monday. & I posted the rest of the latter’s batch so all I have to do is focus on finding that 30 cents. I hope it’s an easy find, lol.

    4. AnonyNurse*

      Can’t post details for obvious reasons, but they are on my list this week for an absurd (*absurd*) pre-auth demand for a prescription for an ER patient. Like set my hair on fire, set their hair on fire, this is why the system is so broken.

      So yea. Feel you on Aetna.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        I’ve never worked with them, but had the misfortune to have to use them for my insurance for eight months (they were what that job allowed). UGH. I’m so glad I’m out.

  21. KarenT*

    sAnyone else have an organization that’s blocked Netflix and other streaming apps from its devices? We used to have it blocked from our wifi when we were in the building (makes sense, no one needs to be watching Netflix at work) but now it’s blocked from our devices. I travel extensively for work and often use my laptop on long flights or in my hotel room at night to watch movies. I realize this is a very small issue in the grand scheme of things, but I’m finding it annoying because now the only way I could watch Netflix on a plane or hotel room is to bring my personal laptop as well (or on my phone, which I don’t love for long amounts of time).

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Yes, but there is a process to ask for an exception, which I haven’t done myself. Might be worth asking since you travel so much!

    2. lobsterbot*

      That’s annoying but I can understand why they’d do it. Consider getting a mid range tablet, mine is perfect for single-person viewing of video and a lot easier to carry than another laptop.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, I bring my personal laptop. For a long time I worked at places where your company tech doubled as your personal tech, but I think that is changing universally. There isn’t enough broadband for everyone, so companies are really cutting down on streaming hogs. Even if you are traveling, if there is a secure connection or VPN, you can still be using the company’s server and their resources.

    3. KR*

      This girl. I used to use Netflix on planes while travelling for work, now I can’t. Amazon video works, I think Hulu might work but I can’t remember my iTunes PW to try it out. Disappointing

    4. Military Prof*

      It might be a cyber-security issue, rather than a particular disdain for Netflix by the company. Sometimes, third-party software can create vulnerabilities within the company’s devices–and if malware gets onto a single device, it can then spread throughout the company network and cause an enormous amount of problems. You could probably ask your company’s IT personnel about why it has been blocked.
      Alternately, it might be because people had found a workaround to the block of the streaming apps, which was allowing them to waste time at work, and IT decided that a general block would be the easier solution than trying to discipline the ones causing problems.

      1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Yes- I’ve worked for companies that didn’t allow any streaming. It was always for security purposes.

    5. WellRed*

      We wre acquired by a larger company that has a division related somewhat to health insurance so I fully expect this to happen once we move to their servers. My work laptop won’t allow me to access Ask A Manager.

    6. higheredrefugee*

      Might be worth a midrange Samsung-like tablet. I use mine for these purposes and reading/listening to books, and it is the perfect size/weight for carrying all the time.

    7. Julie*

      I have an Amazon Fire stick that is smaller than a computer mouse, plugs directly into the TV, and lets me watch any of the major streaming services. I took it with me my last trip and it was very nice to have. Caveats: the hotel must have Wi-Fi, and don’t forget to unplug the thing from the back of the TV when you leave!

      2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yup us too. Blocked all streaming video, including the mandatory staff orientation and safety trainings by our safety training provider and insurance company.

    9. corporate engineering layoff woo*

      Depending on how your company monitors your network, *everything* you access on the company device is shuffled through a monitoring firewall/proxy. Thus, non-essential things like Netflix and other streaming services that don’t have potential business applications (like Youtube, which does have useful/important/critical content) are blocked to reduce the load on the servers that are monitoring the corporate traffic. This is also a reason to never mix personal passwords or files into your work IT environment.

    10. Blarg*

      My employer blocks all outside email. Social media? Fine. Streaming? Cool.

      Gmail? Nope.

      Too many people opening toxic attachments. Total PITA for work travel.

    11. Gatomon*

      No, but I’ve helped clients implement this. Usually it’s because someone ruined it for everyone by watching Netflix or Twitch instead of working. Their implementation seems particularly draconian though.

      If you can’t get your IT to relent, this might be a good use-case for a small, light tablet. I would look at the iPad, iPad Mini, a Surface Go or any of the various Android tablets out there. iPad will probably get you the best battery life as far as I know. I use a Surface Go myself because I like the full-fledged PC aspect for longer trips, and I use it around the house for when I don’t want to go to the office to boot up my gaming desktop, but it doesn’t have the battery life of an iPad.

    12. CSR by Day*

      My employer has blocked “Google” for no apparent reason, but the browsers default to “Bing.” Go figure. (Bing is especially helpful for finding things on the company website, when the search engine on the company’s intranet doesn’t.)

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        Uffff, if my company blocked Google there would be an uproar, since sometimes our jobs involves reading Google’s services documentation.

    13. Reliquary*

      Perfect excuse to get a tablet! There are some incredibly affordable ones out there now. I am very frugal when it comes to electronics, and even I’ve got one.

  22. VictoriaQ*

    I started a new job a few months ago, and I’ve realized that not only do I really enjoy the people in the office and the work itself, but that the company really puts effort into making people feel valued and wanted. Things like the boss sometimes closing the office early on Fridays, or randomly treating us to lunch. Things like having twice-yearly employee appreciation parties (I’ve been to one already and it was delightful). And that’s on top of a great salary and full benefits.

    So, what’s something a company has done that’s made you feel valued and/or appreciated?

    1. SunnySideUp*

      I have nothing! Which explains my current job hunt.

      But all those things sound fantastic, you’re lucky!

    2. Kalesniffer*

      That’s a great work environment to find yourself in! Especially if you’ve ever felt the opposite of appreciated at work. I’m glad you landed yourself somewhere great like that.

      I’m also really happy with my coworkers and my work environment. I have a boss who is wonderful at being in tune with the general mood of the office and with her individual workers. Stuff like buying us all lunch when we’re in the middle of a busy period helps make us feel noticed and appreciated. She advocates for her staff in everything from pay increases to proper staffing levels so no one’s overloaded. She actually gave me today off as a paid day since I put in extra hours last pay period (I’m salaried so there’s no extra compensation) and regularly checks in with me to see how my workload is going.

    3. New Job So Much Better*

      My office caters a lunch about twice a month for all the corporate employees. They also got subscriptions for all of us to an exercise/health website (optional) and gives us a nice Christmas bonus.

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        Also management treats us like adults, and everyone has a generally positive attitude.

    4. LizP*

      It’s so great to hear this. Congratulations to you and Kale. Sadly I’m in the opposite position so your post gives me hope that if I finally decided to leave that I too may find a great environment.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      Mine actually handles complaints made to HR (which, thank goodness, are either extremely rare or handled very discreetly, or both). I also discovered this week that they will reimburse me up to $50 a month for bus passes. And they encourage us to use PTO.

    7. QuinleyThorne*

      My managers are really good about providing verbal, feedback, but there was 1 interaction that I had during my first year at current!job that really stands out to me: This was during my first few months; I had some downtime and was asking the supervisors in my division if they had any extra projects they needed help with, etc. No one had anything, so I went to ask the grandboss (who was on the panel who hired me). When he didn’t have anything for me either, I took the opportunity to ask if I was meeting expectations, and if there was anything specific they’d like me to work toward, etc. He told me no, and that I was doing great, and then asked me, “Are we meeting your expectations?” I must’ve looked confused or taken aback, so he elaborated that he was cognizant of the fact that the work culture of this office was markedly different from the one I came from, and wanted to make sure that the slower pace was okay, that I was enjoying my work, and that everyone was treating me well. I told him that the pace was slower, but that had been what I was looking for, and that everyone was professional and friendly. That was literally the first time any employer I’d ever had asked for feedback that explicitly, and the first time that my feedback was not only valued, but actively encouraged.

    8. Chronic Overthinker*

      I love the fact that even though I have the most junior position on staff that I am still treated like a colleague. If one of the partners pops out for lunch, they will ask me if I want anything. We also get food treats here and there and an occasional treated lunch. Also, our office is dog friendly and some of the senior staff have brought in their dogs. But overall the biggest thing my company has done is given me a good work/life balance. This is one of the ONLY jobs I’ve had where at the end of the day I clock out and don’t worry about work until I get in the next business day.

    9. WineNot*

      My office will typically order lunch a catered lunch a few times a quarter for everyone. They get a massage therapist to come in about once a quarter to give 15-minute massages for people who want it. They apparently try to celebrate birthday months (though I have been here 10 months and today is the first time I’ve seen a massive cake for this). Our department head just bought us lunch yesterday for covering for someone while they were out for a week. I guess when I list it out, it doesn’t sound so bad…in real life it sometimes feels way worse than that!

    10. we're basically gods*

      At old!job, I was a W-2 contractor and paid hourly, so I didn’t technically get holidays at all. But my boss and grandboss both made sure I was paid for the holidays when the office was closed, even though it wasn’t *really* part of my benefits. The whole office also closed down at around 1pm-2pm on Fridays in summer, which was so lovely.
      There were a lot of things about working there that I really enjoyed– the people were nice, the location was great, I felt supported, the perks were good without being overbearing. Unfortunately, they didn’t have any roles suiting what I actually wanted to do with my life, so it was just a nice place to work while finishing up some schooling.

    11. Diahann Carroll*

      My current company is like this for me. At Christmas, they sent us remote workers a gift in the mail (which I love and use often), they regularly host fun events at headquarters (last time they had something extra fun, I happened to be in town and it was a wine tasting party on our outdoor patio – the first 200 or so people to the party were able to get branded wine glasses to take home, and I got one), we get quarterly bonuses that are pretty much guaranteed (prior companies have either only given out bonuses to the sales and sales-adjacent teams, of which I was apart of, or our bonuses were tied to taking and passing exams for certifications/designations), they reimburse all work travel expenses ASAP (I just got my last trip approved Monday and got paid today so I was able to pay off my credit card long before any interest accrued), and my boss regularly tells me he appreciates my hard work and respects my ideas about what my team is doing within the company.

      I also get paid very well for what I do, have the best benefits and time off policy I have ever had at a company (I’m already sitting on 50 hours of vacation time I can use and will accrue 110 more hours this year), and they encourage taking time off and don’t bother you when you do. My stress level has gone down considerably since I began working here, and I truly enjoy the people I work with and what I do every day.

    13. CastIrony*

      I’ve been blessed with a manager who has shown me nothing but kindness and respect. He’s even offered to buy me things like a candy bar or a pop (We are in retail.)

      But right now, he has a ruptured disk in his back, and because he’s so nice, I want to do everything I can to help!

    14. DigitalDragon*

      Not my company so much as my boss, but we were in a sticky situation at the end of last year where two people on the team were out on extended sick leave at the same time and I was the only person who had any expertise on their roles (I used to do it, it got split out into two when I got my current role!) so I covered both their jobs for 9 weeks.

      My boss – as well as making sure to have regular check ins with me to make sure I wasn’t burning out and to see what support I could be given to help with the additional workload – brought me in a large bag of skittles with a note of thanks attached one day. Small thing, but made me feel so valued, and that all my extra effort was appreciated. That note has pride of place on my fridge now.

      (Everyone is now back and okay now, and I’m back to doing my current role so the situation has a happy ending as well)

      1. Windchime*

        I first read this as a “large bag of kittens” and I was instantly very, very jealous. But Skittles is good, too.

    15. Gatomon*

      Bonuses. :)

      Non-monetarily: I really like early dismissal on the days before holidays, personally. No one is really working hard anyway, so set us free! I usually spend holidays alone (by choice) so I work those days, but with most of the rest of the office gone, there’s often not much work to do.

    16. Fikly*

      When they switched health insurance offerings and none of the new plans worked for me, I talked with HR, and they promised to fix this for the new cycle. Then head of HR met with me to discuss what I needed in a plan, and then met with me again to discuss the plans he was looking at to see if they could potentially work.

      The result? I just saved $3000 on MRIs alone in the last 2 months.

    17. SweetestCin*

      Oh man, considering I went from a place where I legit stated “that’s not how this works, that’s not how any of this works guys. Why? Um, building codes/fill in similar reason.” several times a day, had to track my hours (as a salaried professional) via an app, fought daily for work-life balance, frequently received less than 24 hours notice of out of town travel (I have small children and a life outside work where others depend on me being there), AND dealt with a commute from the ninth ring of Hades? Bonus: I’m a woman in a VERY male dominated industry and work culture. So I deal with not being invited to things at my level essentially due to who I am, but I’m also skipped over for the fun stuff that a lot of women in the office did because I wasn’t administrative. VERY isolating.

      My first day at new job, my first email is from the admin to the owner. No, it’s not a welcome message. Its an invitation to the annual “Ladies annual Christmas White Elephant lunch”. This is a welcome change, because “see above VERY isolating”.

      I’m now asked “SweetestCin, what do you think? Any ideas for a solution here?” as opposed to being told what we’re going to do, and me having to look at them and explain that “uh, guys, code doesn’t permit us to do that, that’s why.”

      There’s no time tracking app.

      I work with good people. I have a good work/life balance. My boss does not expect that I answer something that crops up over the weekend unless its an emergency. There’s no “hey BTW you need to go to Big City #1 and your flight’s at 9 a.m. tomorrow” at 5 p.m. after I’ve left work.

      I went from ridiculous to heavenly.

  23. Matilda*

    I work with Agatha Trunchbull. She is very possessive of our boss and the others in the department. Being new, I am her target, I believe, and she likes to torture me daily. If I leave early for an appointment or go to a meeting, I get a million questions from her on where I’m going, why, what’s going on, etc. She also likes to debate and prove that she is the smartest in the room. If I say the sky is blue, she says it’s grey, etc. (I could go on and on.)

    I’ve tried the usual “pretend you’re observing a different species”, and other advice given here. I’ve done the “That’s interesting” or “You don’t say” type answers, but Trunchbull is relentless and seems to *want* to get a rise out of me.

    I don’t want to go off on her or snap at her and lose my job, but it’s starting to effect me by making me stressed out and feeling like I’m being bullied.

    How do I deal with her? Any advice or words of wisdom? Thank you in advance!

    1. irene adler*

      RE: leaving for meetings and appointments
      Why are you answering her questions?
      Just get up, mutter “off to the meeting!” and walk away. Don’t stop-even as she’s peppering you with questions.

      RE: debates
      There’s no debating going on if there’s no one to debate with. Clearly the “that’s interesting” statements are causing her to ‘try harder’ to get you to respond. Time for a different tactic.
      Are these debates on the work itself? Or are they on non-work things? If it is not work-related -don’t engage. Walk away, turn away, move to reading/working on the computer or whatever form your work consists of.
      “Excuse me. I need to get the productivity report started.”

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Why are you answering her questions?
        Just get up, mutter “off to the meeting!” and walk away. Don’t stop-even as she’s peppering you with questions.

        Exactly this. She is not your boss, OP – you owe her no explanations whatsoever. As long as your manager knows where you are and what you’re doing, ignore Trunchbull.

    2. Colette*

      Some thoughts:
      – you don’t have to answer questions about appointments or meetings. “What an odd question”, “Oh, just something I have to take care of”, “Just a personal thing”, etc. And then keep walking – don’t stick around to answer follow up questions.
      – If she likes being the smartest in the room, let her. You don’t have to debate. But if you do, try “that hasn’t been my experience”, “if that works for you”, etc.

      In other words, make it really, really unrewarding to pester you.

    3. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

      How handy are you at telekinesis?

      In all seriousness, document everything that you can, especially if it’s a build up of a million little things. It may actually help to do things like email her your meeting schedule in very bald terms “Hi Agatha, I will be out of office for the teapots meeting from 1-4 on wednesday, and unavailable due to the saucers conference call on thursday from 10-11:30 AM. Hope this answers all your questions about my schedule for this week?”

      On a reasonable person this would reduce the questioning, but it probably won’t – the point here is making you look proactive and on the ball, instead of making it obvious that you want to have fewer interactions with her. When it inevitably goes above you there’s a trail of you being organized and efficient, which makes her pestering look bad.

      On non-work subjects, put her on an information diet so strict that Dr. Kellog would consider it austere.

      1. Joielle*

        It sounds like she’s just a coworker, though, and if that’s the case I don’t think OP should give in and start giving her detailed rundowns of their schedule. I say information diet for everything and polite non-answers when you can’t avoid a question – “Just an appointment, see you later!” “No worries, gotta run!” Or put on headphones on your way out and just wave as you leave.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yup – Trunchbull is her peer, not her manager or supervisor, so she doesn’t have a right to a rundown of what OP’s schedule looks like when she’s out of the office. Trunchbull needs to stay in her lane.

        2. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

          Oh, I assumed it was a boss.

          In which case… become a grey rock of non informativeness.

    4. WellRed*

      I kind of like saying something that sounds polite, but makes little to no sense in context: “Where are you going?”
      “All set, thanks!” Said with a smile and a cheery wave.

      1. we're basically gods*

        I find that responding to attempts to engage me with a cheerful “No thanks!” works pretty well! It doesn’t really make sense, but it’s polite, and automatic enough that I don’t stumble over saying it at all.

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          +1 “No thanks!” + walk away/close door is my go-to for dealing with solicitors. I think “no thanks!” or a cheery “excuse me” while walking away on repeat would work great here.

      2. Another Millenial*

        I’m a fan of sarcastically outlandish replies. “Where are you going?” “Gotta send some goats to space!” “What are you really doing?” “Getting some top hats for my tarantulas.”

        If she wants to get a rise out of you, it’s a great way to turn the tables.

      3. Mouch*

        I had a peer coworker kinda like this, and instead of being polite, I responded to an umpteenth inappropriate “where have you been?” question with an honest, flat, “Changing my tampon in the bathroom.”

        Inappropriate? Sure. But she got the point, was absolutely mortified, said “yep – you’re right, I shouldn’t have asked,” and never asked me again. (Would I recommend this for a coworker who may really want to report you for inappropriate conduct? No. My coworker and I were friendly, but I was very secretly BEC because of her intrusiveness and lack of boundaries.)

      4. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Yes! Pretend you’re Ursula (Phoebe’s sister on Friends/the waitress on Mad About You). She was hilarious with similar responses.

    5. QuinleyThorne*

      You mention that Agatha is “possessive” of your boss. I’m willing to bet it’s because she’s attempting to obfuscate her shitty behavior by controlling who gets access to your boss (this might explain her incessant questioning whenever you leave unexpectedly).

      Since you’ve tried polite deflection and direct confrontation is likely not something that would work (given her apparent penchant for debates), I would document interactions you have with her for a couple of weeks, and then take them to your boss (I’d email her first, and ask if she can set aside some time to meet with you about this issue). Explain that you are trying to handle this yourself, but that you want some guidance on another way to have better interactions with her.

    6. ArtK*

      Let me echo what others have said about the questioning about meetings and appointments. By answering her, you’re validating that she has the right to ask those questions. The fact is, she doesn’t have the right to ask them. Give her nothing more than a breezy “oh, something that I need to do” and exit her vicinity. Don’t engage at all.

        1. lasslisa*

          Ooh, yes. “Don’t worry I’ll be back later!”

          What, she going to say “I wasn’t worried I was just nosy”? :-D

    7. Orange You Glad*

      For me, being honest that I’m literally being bullied by my coworker helped?

      To say it out loud to myself: “Agatha is bullying me.”

      “When she repeatedly questions my schedule, that’s bullying & controlling behavior.”

      “Arguing about the color of the sky to get a rise out of me is deliberate bullying behavior.”

      It’s a reality check – I’m not being too sensitive or taking her behavior too seriously or whatever diminishing “it’s not really *that* bad” justifications I’ve been saying to myself. I’m not crazy: I’m being bullied by my coworker.

      For me, once I can own the reality of what’s happening, it creates space to problem solve and take action that matches the level of bullying that’s occurring. Good luck!

      1. Emilitron*

        Yes. Acknowledge to yourself that it’s happening; that’s the first step to being able to have a conversation about it with somebody else. Maybe that somebody will be her (I need you to stop doing this) or your mutual boss (please agree that this is unacceptable), but it’s really helpful to go into those conversations knowing that you’re justified in asking for change, and not feeling like maybe you’re guilty or oversensitive. You’re not. She’s being a controlling jerk.

    8. AnonforThis*

      No useful advice, but following this because I’m in this situation too. Tried having a Come to Jesus talk with Trunchbull, explaining (charitably) that I need more autonomy to get my work done effectively. She responded by saying that I do what she wants and that I have no autonomy.

      I already knew that the conversation was not going to go well, but that answer gave me the confirmation I needed that there is no fixing this, and I need to put all my efforts into finding a new job, since in my current role any major progress I make towards my work result in long, drawn-out arguments about how the sky is not actually blue.

      Good luck with your Trunchbull, Matilda! I hope your telekinetic skills are put to good use.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Answer with increasingly bizarre and “out there” but recognizably untrue responses.

      Oh that appointment? I had to take my eagle to its twice yearly talon salon appointment, etc.

    10. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Oh my- do you work with my former co-worker, Self-Appointed Hall Monitor? She sounds just like her. Such a nightmare.

      One thing I found effective was to answer her questions with a cheery yet firm “Why do you ask?” Then she’d get all flustered and defensive.

      You could also say something like “Yes, Boss knows I have an appointment.”

      When she tries to debate, you could say, “Well, look at you!” Or “Good for you!” Or “Oh, you just crack me up.” And if you really about to lose it, “Bless your heart.” All with a smile. Being politely condescending to people like that can be satisfying.

      I also like the nonsense “No thanks!” answers mentioned below.

      Good luck with Trunchbull. People like that are maddening.

  24. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

    so I’m preparing for my first campus visit and I think I’m pretty well-prepared and good at the conventional interview stuff but I’ve never spent like, twelve uninterrupted hours with a hiring committee which is kind of what this will be like. any tips for the less structured moments? help me avoid shooting myself in the foot over lunch, for instance?

    1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      My husband’s a professor, and the big thing I remember him saying about interviews is that a lot of people will take you for coffee during your 1:1 meetings, but they won’t necessarily schedule you for bathroom breaks after drinking all that coffee. So plan on a demure way to ask to use the restroom between meetings.

      Good luck!

    2. Prof*

      To be honest, adrenaline will carry you through a lot of it. Yes to the other comment to ask for bathroom breaks – they are not always scheduled. Remember to think and act like a colleague, not like a student – don’t be obsequious or overly deferential, and try to keep things more conversational than Q&A.

      The best advice I ever received about campus visits was from an asst. prof. who applied for an open-rank position and won it over two very senior candidates. She told me that when she found out who her competition was she thought it was impossible for her to ever get the job, so she decided to embrace it and just try to enjoy the trip, meeting people and talking about her work. This meant that she was actually super relaxed and personable during the visit and ended up getting the position. It’s really hard advice to follow, but really just try to enjoy the experience. You get to meet new colleagues and talk about your research for a few days, while you get wined and dined in a new place! That’s pretty neat! The more you can do to get into a mindset of cheerful relaxation, the better.

      2. Academic Promotion is the 8th circle of Hell*

        For the on-campus.
        Practice your job talk. Over and over and over. Think about accessibility. Don’t rush. Take a moment to describe what is on your slide. Do not bury your head in paper. Think about this audience as your future collaborators. Second what Prof said. Breathe. Ask for breaks. Be confident.
        Someone said to me after the fact. We brought you to campus because we did think you were worthy of the position.
        During meals. Do not talk politics. Do not gossip. Do not speak ill of anyone in your field.
        Have lots of questions for them, some fairly benign like where do you live? What is the neighborhood like?

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Ohh here’s another tip. In the US, state employee salaries are all publicly available due to open records laws. So if you get an offer from a state school, you can look up the salaries of some of your future colleagues so you have a better sense of what salary to negotiate for.

    4. Hermione*

      +1 for planning to ask for bathroom breaks.

      I used to be an admin for an academic department and would help schedule job talks for interviewing faculty. Some thoughts in no particular order:

      Beyond the obvious normal interview preparations, consider what you’re wearing and when you’re going to see folks from the university. Is someone meeting your flight, or are you going to Lyft/do you have a chance to go to your hotel first (if it’s not a same-day trip)? If the former, you may want to swing into a restroom to change or freshen up before leaving security. Planes are dry – consider packing hand lotion for after the flight for all of those handshakes. It’s also flu season, consider taking a small bottle of hand-sanitizer to apply discretely between meetings if possible.

      It’s a long day, so shoes should be comfortable, or at least broken in. Depending on the university, you might end up walking with the faculty somewhere for lunch or dinner instead of taking a cab/Lyft (I live in an urban area).

      In my experience it can be alternately hot or cold in some offices/conference rooms, so you want an outfit that will look professional even if you want to pull on or take off a layer for comfort. I sweat a lot when I’m nervous, so I’d bring some wet wipes and my deodorant in my bag for a midday reapplication. If you’re wearing makeup, bring any touch ups with you.

      What’s the weather forecast right now where you live vs. where you’re going? Do you have a warm enough coat? Your hair might get messed by a hat in cold weather, so maybe consider ear muffs instead?

      Bring a reusable water bottle. They may forget to hydrate you, and you may not drink as much coffee as a coffee-meeting may imply because you’ll be answering so many questions. You might also bring some crackers or something small to snack on in case you have a long wait between lunch and dinner. The last thing you want is low blood sugar.

      If you’re doing a faculty talk with your own laptop, consider creating a second user on your account or think hard about your desktop background, turning off e-mail, software update, and text desktop notifications, whether you have or need a clicker, and ask the admin/your contact about adapters for your device. If you’re using their laptop, bring a thumb drive and e-mail your presentation to yourself or host it in your dropbox in advance just in case of device failure. If you’re interviewing at multiple universities, hide away the powerpoint files for your other presentations unless you want the entire room to know where else you’re interviewing.

      If you know who you are meeting beforehand, review their academic profiles, perhaps read an article or abstract of theirs if they’re not in the same area as you, and have at least a conversational understanding of what they’re interested in. Consider the department as a whole – what gap in their academic interests would you be fulfilling, and how can you play up your strengths in that area?

      Good luck!

      1. Academic Promotion is the 8th circle of Hell*

        In my experience it can be alternately hot or cold in some offices/conference rooms, so you want an outfit that will look professional even if you want to pull on or take off a layer for comfort. I sweat a lot when I’m nervous, so I’d bring some wet wipes and my deodorant in my bag for a midday reapplication. If you’re wearing makeup, bring any touch ups with you.
        Yes this, I interviewed in August during a heat wave and many “forced marches” across campus.

      2. kt*

        HERMIONE SAYS TRUTH.

        Also, keep three protein bars in your bag so you can snarf ’em in the bathroom if you get super hungry.

    5. Jellyfish*

      A professor advised me to treat it like a professional interview, but also to remember that the committee is evaluating whether they want to work you as a person for potentially the next 20-30 years. Be polished but be friendly too, and it’s okay to relax some during meals and less formal parts. You’re still interviewing, sure, but you’re being evaluated on different things during those times.
      Ask people about their research or their thoughts on some general topic related to your field. It’s a safe question that makes you look friendly during those unstructured parts. If you’re interviewing in a new city, ask what they like to do in the area.

      Regarding the lunch – this is my personal experience. Order like you’re on a date. Don’t get something messy or with giant portions. You certainly want enough calories to keep your energy up, but that’s it. I ordered a larger meal in one interview, couldn’t finish, had no way to take the excess with me, and felt wasteful. Maybe they didn’t judge me at all, but it made me self-conscious when I already had enough to worry about. In another interview, I ordered a salad with chicken, and it was perfect. Enough protein & nutrients to keep me going, but not too much food.

      Stick to your normal levels of caffeine, or slightly more. If you regularly drink coffee or tea in the mornings, have some before the interview. Have some at lunch, have coffee if they offer it to you. Those interviews are draining, even when they’re going well. Anything to help keep your energy up is good. Obviously, this doesn’t apply if you don’t drink caffeine. However, I found people were fine accommodating restroom visits, and I got passed around to different departments enough that no one knew exactly how many times I had to pee. Choose hydration and energy over trying to avoid the restroom.

      Good luck!

      1. Academic Promotion is the 8th circle of Hell*

        yes to all of this.
        For dinner- do not drink alcohol if no one else is ordering. only one glass of wine if they are and you are comfortable with that.
        Don’t order the most expensive thing on the menu or anything that is hard to eat.
        Watch the table- if no one orders an appetizer. do the same.
        I like to eat before something simple, something protein.

    6. Hi there*

      The only thing I would add to the comments above is to not worry about repeating yourself if you are meeting new people throughout the day. They didn’t hear what you said to the students or provost earlier, and you don’t need to say “Like I said earlier” even though it is super-tempting.

    7. Nesprin*

      Accept that it’s gonna be a bear- I’m an extrovert but 12 hrs of meeting with people is rough. Bring quicly eatable snacks (I had a ton of chocolate and granola bars, because lunch is always late), take any and all opportunities to use the restroom, and drink tea over coffee (you’ll prob have coffee with everyone who you meet with). Make sure you have a long list of questions: what the student body is like, what they wish the student body was like, research strengths vs. priorities, open challenges, how the dept chair acts, how space is fought over etc. for lulls in conversation. I ended up reading the 3 most recent papers for everyone I was going to meet with so that I could have discussion topics and talk about collaborations.

      1. Nesprin*

        Also, make sure you have 3 versions of your talks- computer+ adaptors, thumb drive and emailable.

    8. higheredrefugee*

      If you have to give a presentation, and they don’t give it to you, ask for at least a 15 (preferably 30, as your scheduled pieces get behind all day, and that way you still get 15) minute bathroom/prep break just before it. Every time, I’ve asked, it has been granted and more than one hiring chair has told me they changed it for everyone else too.

    9. Senor Montoya*

      Everything is an interview, and you don’t know who is important. So even the informal friendly stuff is part of your interview. Breakfast with the students, secretary walking you to your presentation, cocktail party, everything.

      You are not yet a coworker or friend of anyone, no matter how congenial or confiding or kind they seem. Do not let down your hair and say the things you’d say to your actual friends.

      At some point you may be left to hang out in an office to meet with whomever wants to talk to you. (You will also probably be presenting and generally these sessions are open to anyone in the dept or unit.). My diss director said that this is when the madwoman escapes the attic (he liked Bronte!) and they can’t do as thing about it, and to be ready and to learn about the department from it.

      Personally, I found it exhausting, and any time they offer you even 15 minutes as a break, take it and have some quiet time for yourself.

    10. AnonForThis*

      I’m a professor at a small teaching college, not some huge R1 university, so YMMV.

      It’s nearly as exhausting for us as it is for you. The only perk of being on a search committee this time of the year (or any time of the year) is to get free meals. (Sorry.) We really, really, really, really want the people we bring to campus to work out, or else we have to bring more people to campus and spend more time asking cardboard, HR-approved questions. I’ve served on loooooots of search committees, and I’m almost only ever looking for cultural fit. Do you talk to us? Do you joke with us? Can you handle us? Can we joke with you? All this is also recognizing that you’re not relaxed, you’re nervous, and there’s a lot at stake for you.

      But, seriously. The people at my university are looking for goodness of fit on top of qualifications. If you weren’t qualified, they wouldn’t be bringing you to campus. Try to relax and have fun with these Very Human, Very Normal people, while putting your best foot forward. In my experience on many search committees, the hires who did that were the ones we fretted over and bent over backwards to hire – and who ended up being the best, least-regret colleagues. (And the interviewees who were terrible fits and were hired anyone were/are painful colleagues to have. I’m at a small university…it matters…)

      My only advice beyond that is to avoid bringing up potential HR issues. At least where I work, we’re told to shut down any talk of marriage, kids, religion, etc, which is hard when you’re spending three meals and a whole day with a person. Volunteer what you wish, but if everyone goes awkwardly quiet, that could be why. Have a lot of non-EEO conversation topics about your field, scholarship (if applicable), prior work experiences, questions about the place you’re interviewing at, etc.

    11. kt*

      Ask for half an hour of alone time before your talk (if your field is like mine, where you give a job talk).

      If conversation flags, here are good questions: “What are you really interested in lately? What have you been working on?”

      Yeah, that’s all you need, really.. just ask about their current research or reading and you won’t have to talk for the next 11 hours :)

  25. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Last Friday I volunteered to give a informal training to our new team members. However, someone got really excited about it and the invite got fowarded to more people than intended. In the end, it turned out to be a formal training for fifteen people and a presentation with thirty slides! I was super nervous, but all went well.

    3. 3DogNight*

      Make a note of this, for your evaluations. Also you can potentially put it on your resume, particularly if you do it more than once. Congratulations! The first one is hard, and they do get better!

  26. Absolutely Anonymous*

    Started my morning by crying and almost having a stress- and exhaustion-induced breakdown in front of the boss. Thankfully it’s a small office and boss wants to support me with what I’m going through.

    So how’s everyone else’s Friday going so far? Hopefully better than mine?

    2. JimmyJab*

      I’m not even going through anything just at the end of a long week. I almost cried before I left the house this morning because I couldn’t find any clean gym clothes. Hope you feel better.

    3. LizP*

      Hugs. So sorry to hear your day started that way, hope it’s getting better and you have a good weekend.

      I was happy to be working from home today, exhausted from a long work week… But the nonsense started so early, major inefficiencies to deal with and follow up on… people sending bond internal emails that I have all who they were sent to… Had a suggestion I submitted to our VP and was reminded that she will likely put that forward without mentioning me at all. Reminded that I couldn’t submit that to my direct manager, her boss, cause she doesn’t value my input or give me oops to give it (blows off or 1on1s and never says sorry). Emails from my manager asking about things that are already done. Even the Wage Tax Refund question line wouldn’t answer a general question I had, person who answered said “my supervisor says we don’t get involved with that”. When I mentioned their contact info is on the site and form for questions, she tells me she’ll let him know. I could punch a wall.

      My husband is on an interview that seems to be going long so I’m excited for him, second one this week, but I have to do something about this horrible job once he is settled somewhere new. I don’t seem to know how not to let this horrible job bother me. Maybe the answer is I’m not supposed to, I need to just move on…

      Thanks for asking. I was going to post a question but then I keep thinking “you just have to leave, you can’t change this place or people”. Wishing you well!

    4. we're basically gods*

      Low-key nervous about the future of my current job– I’m not afraid of losing it, but there’ll be some structural changes in a bit that I fear will result in losing my current, wonderful manager, in favor of a guy who’s got lots of ideas and lots of drive but zero tact or management skills. One way or another, I’m not planning at staying here longer than another 18 months, but… I don’t know that I’ll be happy sticking around even that long if the big boss becomes my direct boss.

    5. SomebodyElse*

      Well… not only am I stress eating and stress shopping this week, I’m now stress shopping for stress eating food!

      So umm… yeah 2 more months until the crazy ends.

    6. Diahann Carroll*

      I spent the morning running in and out of the bathroom until I just gave up and decided I had to take the rest of the day off as sick leave – I have more than enough sick time banked (60 hours), so taking six hours off to just rest for once won’t kill me. I don’t know, I just feel weird taking sick time now that I work from home full time – I told my boss it was due to stomach issues, he was very sympathetic and told me to go and get rest so I can feel better, but I still feel like people may be side-eyeing me for calling out. It’s irrational, I know.

  27. Kitchen Smell???*

    Walked into the office kitchen this morning for a cup of coffee and two staff from another department were cooking bacon and sausage on electric griddles in the kitchen. My coworker actually commented on the smell when we got off the elevator it was so strong. I work with a lot of vegetarians, vegans, and people that don’t eat meat/pork for religious reasons. Is this as bad as microwaving fish or am I over-reacting? I was kind of annoyed but I was already in a bad mood from the commute when I walked in so it could just be me.

    1. SunnySideUp*

      If it’s a one-off thing, I’d let it go.

      I get that you work with vegetarians, vegans, and people that don’t eat meat/pork — but no one is asking them to eat it, so….

      2. LabTechNoMore*

        I’m Muslim, and not at all bothered by cooking smells from bacon/sausage. (Except for momentarily considering whether it’s worth converting because it smells so good! But then I remember that there’s Turkey bacon, so we’re good.)

        More seriously, I respect everyone else’s autonomy to make their own dietary choices, and, if anything, don’t feel comfortable with the notion that others need to avoid eating/making certain foods around me because I don’t eat them, as some kind of commutative dietary imposition. I’m not being Muslim *at* anyone; continue with your breakfast!

    2. ThinMint*

      I don’t think it’s akin to microwaving fish. I don’t know of many people for who microwaved fish is a good smell. This seems to fall into the category of ‘some people really like that smell and others don’t’ (that’s how I feel about coffee).

      1. Marzipan*

        The other thing with fish is, it’s one of the few things where you can be allergic to the smell of it – it can make people genuinely quite unwell.

        1. fposte*

          It’s not so much the smell as the airborne molecules, and it can happen with any food allergen. You’re probably thinking of the fish case from last year, which was awful (and unusual in resulting in a death), but it happens (usually to a milder degree) with others, especially peanuts.

    3. we're basically gods*

      I think it might be weird, but not to the same level as fish. Microwaved fish smells bad to pretty much everyone, regardless of diet– heck, it also smells bad to me when I’ve reheated my own dinner in my own home!
      Meat smell would also be produced by microwaving meat, so I think the non-pork people would still be beset by the smell even just by routine lunches.

    4. noahwynn*

      It would irritate me, but it wouldn’t rise to the level of me saying anything. I’d probably roll my eyes and go to my desk.

    5. CatCat*

      I think creating any kind of powerful food smell that escapes the kitchen is is bad form.

      I would also be annoyed, not because I don’t eat pork, but because I don’t want to smell strong odors in the office.

      1. Gumby*

        But… the smells from the kitchen are how I know breakfast is ready! (On Fridays our office manager makes breakfast for our small office – usually puts out fruit, bagels, pastries, and then generally something extra – like eggs, hash browns, bacon/sausage, lox – she switches it up. But I absolutely do know food is ready when I can smell bacon or whatever.) (Oh, also, it turns out her full on spread is less expensive than the previous solution of having fruit and bagels delivered; since she goes to the store herself to get it, we get a more expansive menu!)

    6. littlelizard*

      Just heating bacon or sausage would not rise to the same level as microwaving fish for me. But cooking them from scratch??? On griddles?? That sounds really distracting and smelly. The vegans and such might have their own objections as well, but my atheist meat-eater opinion is that that’s really too much for the office (unless you have some sort of strong ‘cook things at work! it’s great!’ culture)

      1. Amy Sly*

        Yeah … maybe it’s an irregular Friday social breakfast thing, in which case whatever. But if someone is routinely bringing in a griddle, I’d be giving them the stink-eye for the mess and time they’re spending. If you need more than a microwave or a toaster oven to make your meals at work, you’re probably going too far.

    7. Mediamaven*

      I think it’s weird that they are doing that at the office but no, just because someone eats a certain way doesn’t mean everyone should change their own methods of eating.

    8. WellRed*

      I think it’s weird to cook (not heat) anything from scratch in the office (did they bring in the griddles?), but otherwise not as bad as fish microwaving.
      I have a vegetarian roommate at home, she like the smell of bacon and sausage.

    9. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

      My general rule of thumb: I won’t make/reheat/eat food in the office that will infuse the space with a lingering smell long after I make/reheat/eat it, and I really appreciate it when coworkers are similarly considerate. I’m neither vegetarian nor vegan, but I really really really can’t stand the smell of bacon and would be pretty ticked off that someone was cool with making the office smell like bacon for upwards of a day (which is how long my house smells like it on the rare occasions that my husband cooks it). I’d be a bit embarrassed to host clients in the bacon-atmosphere as well.

      1. Mouch*

        Ditto. The smell of cooking pork, particularly breakfast sausage and bacon, literally triggers my gag reflex. And those smells stick around for a long time. I’d be aggravated.

    10. Mia 52*

      I mean it’s pretty weird but if its a one off then ehhhh. Unless the company decrees no meat in the office then they’re free to eat as much meat as they want. Their diets don’t need to follow others’ personal or religious beliefs. But it quite odd! However to me it sounds fun and I’d try to get them to give me some!

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Ha! I too would be trying to get in on that bacon (they can keep their sausage – yuck).

    11. Another Millenial*

      I’m vegetarian and the smell of cooking/cooked meat actually does bother me. A lot. I don’t think that can be said about all vegetarians, though, but it’s a thing.

      But I’m not going to say anything if it’s a one-off thing, and I can’t allow myself to be bothered when people pull out their lunches (because it’s necessary for people to eat). If it’s strong enough to smell from the elevator, though, I don’t think that would be an acceptable habit for ANY type of odor. I’d at least want a warning so I can prepare for the overwhelming smell of burning flesh.

    12. Joie*

      It would annoy me but if it’s a one time thing I’d let it go

      And I love bacon but HATE the smell of it – probably because 90% of people cook it until it’s burnt and crunchy and I can’t stand that smell

    13. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Don’t know where you are or what regulations apply, but in my locale anything electrical that you plug in at the workplace has to be annually (?) safety tested and certified. I presume your co-workers have brought in a personal appliance that hasn’t been safety tested or anything which may be an angle you could pursue with whoever the relevant people are in your company (Facilities or something like that) if you want to get it to stop.

      Personally I don’t mind the smell of bacon etc but it fails the “what would it be like if everyone did this?” test.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This. There’s also an issue with grease buildup if they do it more than the once. Think of the greasy layer that can build up in kitchens–that is going to be a problem cleaning off of office surfaces. Kitchens are made of hard and washable surfaces for a reason.

  28. Marzipan*

    The advert for my maternity cover has been up for a little while now (due to close in a couple of days) and it’s really weirding me out.

    The second thing most people said to me on hearing I was pregnant – after some variant of surprised congratulations – was, essentially, to fall about laughing at the idea of me having to take time off, a thing I am known for being spectacularly bad at. (I have been off sick today with a cold. I spent all morning doing bits of work anyway. My inbox is in a much more satisfactory state!) I’m awful at taking holiday and generally don’t function very well without the framework of work to contain me. I had been doing quite well at starting to disengage, but I seem to have swung back the other way in the last couple of weeks.

    Anyone have any thoughts on how to helpfully approach the situation? I appreciate that once the Marzipan Baby is actually here, it should prove appropriately distracting, but right now I’m finding myself very prone to being over-involved in work stuff.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      This was me as well just a few months ago. I worked up until I went into labor and had a spreadsheet I was updating each day with my main projects/etc and had everything saved in a shared drive. It was my attempt to exert control and make sure everything went smoothly while I was out.

      I did set up a rule to direct all mail I received during my leave to go into one folder, and I won’t pretend that I didn’t check it a few times a week for the first few weeks. But after that I was too busy with the little one and wanted to spend as much time focused on that, I was surprised how little I cared about work. I kept in touch with my very small team and shared pics/etc but didn’t really engage re work stuff until the week before I was coming back.

      Also, not a major surprise, but some stuff fell through the cracks when I was out. No big deal, I handled when I returned!

      Good luck :)

    2. theletter*

      From what I heard, it takes about ten days of being ‘off’ to really disengage from work. For me, it usually takes about 2 or 3 days to get a sense of a new routine, a state where I’m actually realizing “This ::waves hand around:: is my job now”.

      I think there’s a state of stress about work stuff that kind linger a bit – a gnawing feeling that there’s things you need to tell people, things you have to take care of. But when you’re on Mat leave, that’s someone else’s job, they will take care of it. They’re getting paid to take care of it. If they fail, it’s the company’s problem, not yours.

      You say you function better with a framework, why not start on that framework now? It’s probably not going to be schedule per se but working out your upcoming patterns might help you feeling like you’re preparing for this next chapter and prioritizing it.

      1. Marzipan*

        I think part of what I’m panicking about is that, in normal circumstances, I don’t ever get to that 2-3 days in, ‘hey, I’m off work!’ stage (with maybe the exception of Christmas-to-New-Year, which doesn’t seem to run in real time anyway). I end up oddly non-functional, and emotionally all over the place and generally rather a mess. So I think I’m slightly concerned that I may have lined myself up for a year of that!

        1. knitter*

          For my first child, I worked one day a week in my second month of leave. This was partly a financial decision and partly because I was worried about being unable to step away.
          Even with an “easy” baby like my first was, I was still nursing for hours. I was up at all hours so my thinking ability was significantly reduced. I had planned to read ALL THE BOOKS while I was on leave. Didn’t happen. But I found a routine. We went on a morning walk. I’d go to a weekly mom’s group. I tried to cook during nap time because it brought me joy, made me feel like a human, and I could focus on it despite being exhausted. But ultimately I found and still find that I can’t focus on work when my child (now children) is in the room. So that one day a week ended up being more of a burden that my pre-mom self could imagine.
          Additionally since I literally have little humans who depend on me to survive, the urgency and importance I previously attributed to my work gradually reduced. While I’m still very good at my job, I work smarter and prioritize better. I didn’t have to spend ALL my time working.

          1. LittleBeans*

            This is so helpful! I am going out on maternity leave in a couple of months and I’ve been really worried about how I will balance things when I come back. My approach to work has always been that I have to get the job done well – if that means I stay late or work all weekend, then I do. I was nervous that I might have to leave at 5pm to make it to daycare pickup even though that means leaving a work situation unresolved. But your point about the relative importance of things makes sense – I’m sure once there is a tiny human who depends on me for survival, that urgent email in my inbox is going to feel a lot less urgent…

    3. 867-5309*

      I think (check this with HR) you can actually risk losing FMLA benefits if you’re working during that period.

    4. MeganTea*

      When I took maternity leave, I removed my work email from my phone. I gave people my personal email in case of an emergency — and my office was really good in respecting that! But not seeing email notifications pop up and not being able to easily access work email on my phone helped a LOT.
      But having a newborn baby — babies eat pretty frequently and need a lot of diaper changes, so in the first few months, caring for babies is a pretty full schedule of its own. While there was downtime, it wasn’t often in long stretches.

  29. Where’sthemoneyLucas*

    Question for people in the HR field: what does a typical day look like for you? I recently graduated with a masters in HR because it made sense for my job and it’s a subject I enjoyed learning about, but we didn’t actually learn much about the day-to-day work of an HR professional. I’m unexpectedly moving out of state and away from my current amazing job. I’m wondering if I want to pursue HR positions or stay in my lane. I don’t know what a job like that would look like and, I’ll be honest, change makes my anxiety flare up. My current position is office manager/department of one/doer of all things that need to be done. I’m curious how HR professionals fill their days. I’ve also never worked for a big company before, so that also might be limiting my ability to envision the job. Any insight is appreciated!

    1. agnes*

      depends on whether you want to specialize or be a generalist. I usually encourage new HR people to start out in recruitment. You learn a lot about the organization and you are providing a solution to a department’s need–a new employee–so they are generally motivated to work with you. A lot of people like to work in benefits as well–but for me that was too administrative. I started in “Employment” (hiring and recruitment) and now work primarily in Employee Relations. It’s challenging but I do like it. I also work in Organization Development and that’s fun too.

      So a typical day for me might involve coaching a manager to improve job performance, helping to reorganize a division to better manage work, figuring out what skills gaps we have to take the organization where we want to go (and figuring out how to fill them) handling disciplinary issues, doing an investigation into allegations of sexual harassment or discrimination, conducting a training class in improving communications, and heading up some projects like revamping our policies, employee handbook, or evaluations.

      it’s a great career. Good luck!

    2. HRArwy*

      I specialize in Employee Relations and specialize even further with workplace investigations (human rights, discrimination, workplace violence etc..) My work comes to me — so People Managers, other managers etc… will contact me if an employee brings up a complaint. I work to investigate the matter.

      I think ER has served as a foundation for a lot of the other roles I have and I do know when someone hasn’t had ER experience. So, I recco that people throw themselves into HR early on as it’ll help you solve a lot of other “things” in other HR spaces.

      1. agnes*

        I’m envious that you can specialize to that extent! We have a small team so we are all generalists. The departments I work with are heavy on ER issues due to the nature of the work.

    3. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      I agree with Agnes – it really depends on if you end up specialized, or if you end up in a Generalist or Coordinator type role. It also depends on if you work for a smaller company where you would end up being a Generalist regardless and being the Department of 1, Be All End All of HR, or if you end up in a larger company where you’re working on a team.

      I agree that starting out in Recruiting is great, but it can be tough to break out of and then you’re pigeon-holed into nothing but Talent Acquisition.

      I currently work closely with our HR Business Partners, and our lives are very similar to what agnes describes. It can be everything from partnering with managers on simple job changes, to progressive discipline, to working on initiatives to improve processes and programs. I also work heavily with Leave of Absences, so I’m meeting directly with employees regularly, helping with managing our vendor, walking managers through how to manage Intermittent Leaves, completing timesheets, and other random data entry. I think the most successful HR professionals are the ones who are able operate in the grey – we tend to be extremely risk avoidant, but if you are able to operate in those grey areas you’re going to be able to both prevent risk to your organization as well as advocate for the employee. It probably also depends on your organization, but people who are extremely rigid and need a ton of structure just aren’t successful around here.

  30. Masquerade*

    I do a lot of student recruitment in my role, many of which are from out of state. Naturally a lot of people want to know how safe our city is. I guess statistically it is about as safe as any other large city, and common sense (not leaving expensive belongings visible in the car goes a moderate but not foolproof way).

    Some changes in the local laws have made things more dangerous for people living in apartments, like myself and nearly all of our incoming students will. It’s mostly increased property crime but there have been increases of violent crime as well, and I know a number students who have been victims of these violent crimes. Obviously I want to be honest when talking to the students who want to move to our city but don’t want to scare them away. The reality is that our area is experiencing an increasing crime rate though. How can I best explain this to them without fear mongering, as it is a very common question?

    1. fposte*

      Increases don’t in themselves mean anything. Think in medical terms, where if you’re told your risk of antennae cancer has just quadrupled, that still doesn’t mean you’re at high risk for antennae cancer if the initial risk was .001 percent and now it’s .004 percent. I think it’s easy for the increase to mean more to you because it’s novel and your friends have been involved, but I would instead focus on the existing crime level and talk about what it’s on a par with and what precautions people tend to take.

    2. ACDC*

      I don’t think you should be the one to answer this question. I would recommend referring them to a website that tracks this sort of thing (typically a local PD will post crime stats or there are other 3rd party websites do this). That way the person can decide for themselves what is safe and what is unsafe, since everyone’s past experiences will determine what they think is safe or not.

    3. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

      Be up front about the statistics for campus vs. off campus crime rates.

      If most crime on campus and the general nearby area is theft, you can truthfully say that the university is safer than, say, the rest of downtown. If this isn’t true, stress what the university is doing to increase security. Be candid about which neighborhoods outside of that are likely to be safer for students. And make sure you know what services campus security offers, because aside from illegally ticketing parked cars and heading out to pick up people from blue light stops on campus, security may not do much at all, and students are often told to call security *first* when something goes immediately and criminally wrong, and 911 second. (In most cases they should be calling 911, or the non-emergency police line for something like a car broken into, etc.)

    4. Catwoman*

      Former student recruiter here. It’s always a tricky question. I would suggest checking in with the campus visitor center to see what their language is and go from there. Also, focus your answer on what the university is doing to address instances of crime and prevention. Even if crime is going up, parents and students want to be reassured that the university is addressing it or responding in a constructive way. Think of their question more as, what is the university doing to keep my child safe?

      In recruitment, I think it’s important to make sure that your message is in line with the school’s message, but also adding your own context if you feel that’s necessary. It may also help you to do some of your own research so you can suggest specific areas of town for off-campus living.

    5. Joielle*

      I think it’s a problematic question for a lot of reasons, not least because it’s basically impossible to answer, and you should just be vague. “It’s about the same as a lot of other cities this size, some neighborhoods different from others, but here’s the website for our local police department if you want to look at the actual statistics.” MAYBE, at most, say something about campus security, especially if they’ll walk you to your car at night or something like that.

      I think no matter what you say, people will hear whatever confirms their preconceptions of the area, so there’s no use trying to get into detail.

  31. Sick during notice period*

    Soo I’ve always been told that a professional provides two weeks notice and serves out that period, in the office, wrapping things up and doing hand-offs as necessary. To do anything else reflects poorly on you and may affect your reference.

    I gave my notice a few days ago and now I’ve come down with a nasty cold – I’m hacking and sneezing and look like crud. My office doesn’t allow any working from home (one of the reasons I’m leaving!) and I can’t push back the end date, so I’m assuming there’s nothing to do but suck it up. I believe I can physically get through the day with DayQuil and a can-do attitude, but I do feel bad knowing that I’m in the office visibly unwell. I have face-to-face meetings scheduled a lot of work to wrap up before I leave.

    My coworkers will understand that this is one of those exceptions … right?

    1. SophiaB*

      Given you’ve handed your notice in and some of your work will be documentation of your workload, would your boss allow you to do some of that from home? It will get you over your cold faster (and reduce the potential for spreading it around the office).

      Failing that, a day or two of sick leave might get you over the cold for real – is that a possibility?

      Hope you start feeling better soon regardless – colds are always so miserable to live through

    2. Turtlewings*

      Getting sick is one of those things that just happens sometimes, and seldom conveniently. In your place I wouldn’t feel badly at all about taking a day or two of sick leave. It’s just life.

    3. Bex*

      Can you call your boss and ask for an exception from the “no work from home” policy? I would probably say something like “I have a really nasty cold, but since it’s my transition period, I’d be happy to work form home instead of taking sick time.”

      Honestly, if I was your coworker and you came in sick and contagious, I would be super pissed off.

    4. Mrs Peaches*

      Yes, your coworkers will understand. They’ve seen that you’re actually sick and they probably don’t want you there as much as you don’t want to be there. Could you take a sick day (or two), but still try to accomplish some work from home? Work on your documentation, respond to emails, have meetings by phone, etc.

      1. Sick during notice period**

        Sadly, I just don’t think it’s an option – me pushing for working from home, and being denied, was a factor in my leaving, and they know that … so the optics of my now trying to work from home during the my leave period is just not great. I don’t even feel that I can ask. I’d probably have more luck asking to just take a sick day without delaying my last day.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      I to take a sick day during my notice period. I technically still had the time and it was best for everyone I stayed home. While I was technically allowed to work from home, as ill as I was, I did not and just took a sick day.

    6. Workerbee*

      I look at this way: You already gave your notice. They (presumably) still want you to work out that notice, hand things off, wrap things up.

      What would happen if you stated, not asked, something like: “I’ve come down with a horrible cold and am definitely contagious. I will be working from home and plan to be back in the office on X date. You can reach me by email/cell/Skype/etc.” ?

      (I have a bit of “What are they going to do, fire you?” attitude about places like this where one’s given notice, but if they refuse to pay you for at-home work time, then just take the sick leave if it exists. You’ve earned it, after all!)

    7. LabTechNoMore*

      When I’ve had that happen, I took a sick day when I needed to, and extended my two weeks’ by the number of days I was out sick. HR might decline the offer because it’s more work for them, but I made it clear that I was doing it as a courtesy to your boss/team. (I always would put a week or two buffer between jobs so that it was feasible for me, but obviously if you’re starting the new role Monday that’s not doable.)

  32. SophiaB*

    Hi AMA Commentariat, I have a life experience question I’m hoping for some help with:

    I’m in my late 20s and for the past decade I’ve been able to move up really quickly in my career(s). Mostly this is due to me taking on work outside my sphere and using it as a handhold to move diagonally upwards. My work gets more exciting, I get more responsibility quickly, everything is good. I’ve also put a lot of hours in – to the detriment of my personal life – in order to get to where I am. So I’m confident that I’ve earnt my current place in the world.

    But I seem to have hit a ceiling. I’m very good at my current job. I’m very technically proficient. I’m well-liked and well-thought of. And all the feedback everyone has for me is ‘you just need to live for another decade or so, and then you’ll be where you want to be’. Nothing in particular is ‘wrong’, I just am very young for the role.

    For context, my peers in this role are all a decade (or more) older than me. And the more senior of them are … even more than that.

    Is this just… something that happens? Do we all hit a point where we can’t keep climbing through sheer tenacity and just have to rack up the experience 60 minutes to the hour? Any tips for surviving this?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. ThatGirl*

      You sound very motivated and driven, and that’s great. But yes, sometimes you just have to do the work, pass the time, and build experience little by little. Keep taking on projects that interest and push you, but keep doing your every day work well, hone your skills, and build relationships.

      1. Fibchopkin*

        Seconding this. I know it can be frustrating! You’re good, and you want to keep moving up, and that’s great and admirable, but sometimes, you really DO need experience to function well in a senior position at an established organization. You should still be getting more complex projects and salary raises though, it’s just there comes a point where you maintain the same job title for 5 years or so while you garner experience and take on progressively more challenging assignments.

      2. SophiaB*

        Thanks ThatGirl,

        It’s a good point about not letting standards slip because I’m frustrated. And also on the building relationships front – most people around me have a wealth of business contacts built up over the years, but I think I was missing that that all had to start somewhere.

        Thank you :)

        1. ThatGirl*

          And don’t neglect your personal life! You’re in a place where you don’t need to be quite so driven at the moment — you’re doing your job well and it will take time to build relationships and experience. If you’re the kind of person who needs a hobby, maybe it’s time to focus a little more on your personal growth.

    2. Nonprofit Nancy*

      I’m trying to judge if this is the feedback you’re receiving about promotion in your current organization, or if it’s coming from external interviews. It’s totally possible to hit a ceiling at your own org where nobody can quite picture you as the Senior So-and-So yet, but a different org – perhaps a smaller or newer one – would be happy to take the chance on a younger-than-average Senior So-and-So, and it behooves you to take that role and gain that experience for your resume versus putting in another five or ten years at your current org. FWIW.

      But if you’re hearing it in interviews, maybe it means it’s time to go wider/deeper on a subject instead of going up in authority.

      1. SophiaB*

        Thanks Nancy.

        It is all internal at the moment. In fact, I sat down with my Grand Boss recently (it was appropriate – he’s not finalised the structure for this year, and I own technical development training) and he told me that the role above me will go to someone with ‘at least 10 years experience in X’ because he wants to build the team around a more experienced resource.

        That broke me – our company hasn’t even been around for 10 years yet!

        I think you’ve nailed my quandry though – do I sit tight and wait it out, or go and climb some other ladders elsewhere – especially since I’d be going in fresh and no-one would be remembering the more junior version of me. I guess I have to think about that some more.

        Thank you.

        1. irene adler*

          My opinion: time to climb the ladders at other companies-if you are interested in getting to the next level.

          If they don’t see you in the role above you, then they never will – even if you spend the next 10 years working there. There will always be some excuse, some intangible ‘thing’ you don’t possess. But they can’t put a name to this ‘thing’ you lack.

          Can Grand Boss articulate what it is about acquiring 10 years experience in X that differentiates you from the role above you? Doesn’t sound like it from what you wrote. So, time to go elsewhere.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            That’s where I’m at. I left an industry and a career I really enjoyed in insurance because I too hit that ceiling at my old company. I thought I was going to retire from that place – nope. I kept being jerked around and passed over for promotion (that everyone agreed I deserved), and after two promotions over four years there, it made me wonder if that was it. Then I did some self reflection and realized I wanted to be doing something else entirely altogether, preferably as a writer and editor, and I am now doing that full time somewhere else with a much higher title than the one I had two years ago making way more money.

            Go climb somewhere else if you really believe that’s what’s best for you and your career.

          2. Mouch*

            Eh, that’s not always true. I started out as literal-bottom-rung ladder in a staff classification and climbed up to director-level administrator-classification in a few years (I was 30, so barely older than OP), and no one saw me as the latter when I started out. After I got that big promotion, I thought my coworkers would never support me, but they have. If OP has a boss or grandboss who recognizes potential and isn’t set in “Teapot Clerk can’t be a Teapot Designer!” thinking, and if OP does good work while building expert and referent power, doors could open.

            I’m now treading water and not going up anywhere fast. I’m building experience and reputation in my role. Do I wish sometimes I was somewhere with coworkers who don’t know I started out as bottom-rung staff position? Yep. Does that impact my work or career trajectory? I don’t think so. But staying put is okay for a few years. I’ve learned that having that experience, rather than going 100mph as soon as possible, can be beneficial. If I ever decide to leave my company, I’ll 100% be in a better negotiating position than if I got my director job, stayed for a year, and then tried to climb higher somewhere else.

            1. Mouch*

              And I’ll add, in general… Having been at an organization long enough to have a solid base of organizational knowledge and history, and working to become a recognizable part of the organizational culture, can be near-irreplaceable and highly valuable. Putting in 3-5 years in a role, learning the ups and downs, and truly taking the time to experience the job, rounds an employee out. I WISH I could say “yeah, I had Experience A for 5 years and Experience B for 5 years, before moving into this director position”; instead, I hedge and say, “yeah, I had Experience A for a little bit; moving on….” But my organizational knowledge? My worth to the organizational culture, where people know me and my work? That gets me places, even if I’m not Associate Vice President yet.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Once you get to a level where you need to manage others, then the company needs to make a bigger investment and it’s a more serious consideration. So there is a wall between associate and manager and there isn’t anything you can do except put in time showing how responsible and professional you are. If you have all the managerial talents, it can still take years for your superiors to see those skills in action.

      1. Joielle*

        This is a great point. For management levels, sometimes you need a person with a long (like, years-long) track record of good judgment. You need to be exposed to a lot of different situations and people and problems and handle them all gracefully. Could you do all of that now? Probably – it sounds like you’re smart and a great employee! But it’ll be easier to move up once you can actually point to that kind of experience.

        1. Iris Eyes*

          Management of people or processes. In my org all the talent in the world still doesn’t give you the perspective that many years of experiencing the ups and downs of the industry provides so that you can make quality decisions that are balanced by all of the might be’s.

      2. NW Mossy*

        Along the same line, the timeframes for management work are often MUCH longer than they are for individual-contributor work. Strategy work is typically done looking out 3-5 years, and you won’t start to rack up significant accomplishments at that until you’ve been through a cycle or two.

        Someone recently shared with me the concept of “go slow to go fast,” and I think it applies here. As you climb higher, there’s a real risk of your ambition outpacing your practical experience. Deliberately spending a bit more time at the previous level means that you’ve got a clearer picture of what the next level entails and your ramp-up time correspondingly shorter.

        True story from my own experience: A little over a year ago, two director positions opened up in my business line. After much consideration and discussion with my boss, I decided not to apply for either – they just weren’t quite the right match for me in several ways, and I just felt like I needed a bit more seasoning at the manager level. I ended up taking a lateral move to manage a different team instead, and I’ve learned a lot in this role that will help me long-term.

        Now, a new round of leadership changes is happening, which is creating the opportunity for me to apply to replace my boss. It’s much more suited to my strengths than the other roles would have been, and I’m a lot more likely to get it as a result. Sometimes, managing your career is as much about knowing when to exercise patience than anything else.

        1. SophiaB*

          NW Mossy, thank you! This bit: “Strategy work is typically done looking out 3-5 years, and you won’t start to rack up significant accomplishments at that until you’ve been through a cycle or two.”

          My boss tried to explain this bit, but not with those words. It’s the equivalent of… ‘you can stop the fire, but you’ve not run the clean-up operation yet’. And I didn’t get it at the time, but I see what you mean now. It’s one thing to live in the moment and be a rock star; it’s another thing to patiently keep rebuilding in order to prevent the next escalation. Something to think on.

          Thank you, also, for giving me a perspective on not being ready for Directorship yet. I’m not ready to manage people (in this environment). But maybe a lateral move is the right thing.

          Thank you.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            It’s also common for promotions to come more slowly as you get more senior – there are a lot more junior positions than senior, and as the work gets more complex, it can make sense to stay in a role for a longer time before moving on. So you can be doing everything right, and still have the promotion schedule slow down.

            What I would suggest is to look at the resumes of people in the kind of job you want to give you an idea of how to prepare for it. A lateral move can be a good idea – for a manager position, you often want people with varied experience, rather than at a single company.

        2. Emilitron*

          I’m at a point where I’ve done a really successful project over a couple of years, and I feel really great about that. My boss is starting to talk to me about the path upward. But to be a manager of many projects at once, one of the skills that’s really necessary is to have seen several projects fail in several different ways, and to have an internal reference of what risks are good risks, vs how many small risks add up to an overall terrible plan, basically to have personal experience not just of rock-star success but also of the struggle and how to prevent disasters. Part of my growth plan is to be involved in more near-disasters.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      With the caveat that government may be different from industry, where I sit this is very common. There are more available positions and opportunities at the lower levels, and high performers can get recognized and promoted very quickly. But then suddenly their progress is halted, because there are fewer positions as you near the top of the pyramid and they don’t open up as frequently. As people are working longer, not retiring at 62 as used to be common, this exacerbates the problem.

      I often counsel employees who find themselves in your situation to focus on broadening experience – taking lateral transfers to acquire new skills, expanding professional networks – so that when the position on the next rung of the ladder opens up they will be competitive. As you noted, there are usually others with similar abilities but more years of experience who will be vying for the same position, so you will need to find a way to stand out – wider experience and networks can help.

    5. RecoveringSWO*

      Now, or once you feel like you can handle your workload without regular extra hours, would probably be an ideal time to look into any educational goals that may help you in the longterm.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Start looking externally. I fear you may still be seen as “the too young one” in your current company a few years in the future. If you want to “keep climbing” and have the ability and aptitude to take on more senior roles then go for it elsewhere! A place where stagnating for a fixed amount of time eventually leads to becoming more senior – doesn’t sound like somewhere a person like you would thrive long term, to be honest.

  33. fromscratch*

    I am transitioning into a new role at work. So is another coworker. Our replacements were hired and have started. However, we still haven’t seen job descriptions or offer letters for our new roles.
    We were just told one day that they’d hired our replacements and once they were trained we could move into our new jobs full time.
    Is this weird?
    I feel like we should have been formally presented with what our new jobs will entail not just from a task perspective but also salary-wise.
    And now I don’t know how to go about addressing this.

    1. Forsyth County*

      Can you just ask for a sit down with your current (or new manager if you have one) to go over your duties. “I’m excited about my new role and I want to make sure we are on the same page about duties and responsibilities and compensation.”

      1. irene adler*

        “And the time line for when to start the new position.” That needs to be defined.
        Certainly some planning needs to be done. Hence a time line is needed here. Need to know how much time to prep for new position. Also, need to know time frame for training the newbies.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      Wait, I just need to get the details here: Are you saying that the day they hired your replacements was the first you heard about being moved into a new position? If that’s the case, then that is extremely weird in my experience. That should have been presented to you as a choice, not a fait accompli.

      However you’re now in the situation you’re in. I would absolutely go to your manager and simply ask for clarification of the new duties and salary. I frankly don’t see any other option. And–depending on your level, experience, etc.–I would not assume that whatever you’re told is set in stone. They should have brought this to you before the transition. At that time you would typically have had an opportunity to negotiate salary and duties. That you now have to do that after the transition has already begun is awkward but not your fault.

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          That’s my concern too. Hire replacements, have the old workers train the replacements, claim “delays” with the new roles and just not schedule them to return.

          1. fromscratch*

            this is absolutely my concern. although we’re now both doing our new roles and old jobs – and have been given a heap of new projects.
            But I wasn’t aware the new role was actually going to happen until the day they came in and said “hey! we hired your replacements!”

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Oh wow – this doesn’t look good, I’m afraid. Definitely have a sit down with your manager ASAP to find out exactly what’s going on.

        2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

          Agreed – I suggest you start looking elsewhere.

          The “new jobs” sound like an obvious false premise to move established people out of the company ultimately, in favour of junior replacements. Don’t you (thread starter) think it’s strange that you and co-worker were both transitioned into new roles, company has recruited replacements who you have to train and handover to, and you’ve had no detail of what your new roles actually are? It sounds pretty blatant (from an external view point just based on what you’ve written here) sorry to say.

          I infer that you (and co-worker) were just told out of the blue one day that “congratulations! You and Sarah will be moving to be XYZ Role Specialists and we have already got new people ready to take on your old roles so you just need to handover this stuff and then you’ll be ready to go on to new and greater things!”

          I also infer (just based on intuition really) that there was no salary increase involved in this ‘new role’ stuff so presumably it hasn’t been presented as a promotion.

  34. Burnt out from helping others*

    I am wondering if anyone has successfully made a transition out of social services into another field of work? I have been in the field for 10 years and am feeling the burnout. Combined with a lack of appreciation internally, no assistance in the rare circumstances it is requested/warranted and the overall negatives that come with working for a state agency… I am fed up! I know many of my skills are transferable but am feeling overwhelmed with where to start!!

    1. Michelle*

      I transitioned from social services to a HeadStart program. I worked there for 2 years, moved to the museum field, worked in 1 position for 6 years, applied for an internal position and now I’ve been the administrative assistant to the executive director for the last 12 years.

      I like helping others and keeping things moving and this position allows me to do both. I am compensated a little above what the market rate is, the benefits are pretty good and I actually like my work. Like any job, there are challenges and challenging people, but overall it was a good move for me.

      1. burnt out from helping others*

        Thank you! I am just starting to think about the process and it is a bit overwhelming. Its nice to hear that others having successfully done it!

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I’m replying to bookmark. I’ve only been in social services 6 months but it isn’t my forever career

    3. NotMyRealName*

      My sister transitioned from working at a non-profit for housing issues to working to help patients get appropriate health resources through their insurance.

    4. AnonyNurse*

      I went from child protection (BA in sociology) to case manager at a low income prenatal clinic, which felt like working to prevent the stuff I dealt with in my prior role, to nursing school (BSN) to all kinds of fun things. Good luck!

    5. Former DV Advocate*

      It is possibly to transition out; however, how easy it will be depends on your experience. Do you have a Masters in social work or just a BA? I think it also depends on the type of social work field. Someone like me who was a DV advocate with a BA has different options than someone who had a years of experience working with child protection services. Are you willing to work in an adjacent field? I applied to and was a final candidate for positions such as a trainer for the main DV organization that provide the training credit hrs for DV advocates. I also applied to my state agency that provides the funding to the DV shelters in my state. However, I decided to go to medical school and made made some huge adjustments but it all depends on what you are looking for. I used my case management Experience to apply to jobs such as admin, real estate and laws offices. What helped was that I made a list of things I liked doing vs what I didn’t and looked for jobs that aligned with that. It helped because I was able to explain during interviews why I was interested and leverage my experience. I got good feedback but I was willing to apply to anything that sounded interesting to me.

  35. Anon for this work episode*

    February 7th is National Wear Red to support American Heart Month and to help increase awareness about heart disease. My company just sent out an email to all employees to encourage everyone to wear red and try to set up a heart healthy activity to increase awareness.

    A few years ago I had a heart attack and had emergency surgery, then a second heart surgery. This past year I had three scheduled (non-heart) surgeries, and the surgery in December had serious complications that resulted in another emergency surgery and nearly a week in the ICU.
    I just returned to work and this National Wear Red day is giving me incredible anxiety. I don’t want to think about heart disease, and I really want to forget about my very painful recent surgery and hospital stay. With everyone wearing red and having activities, it’s going to be extremely stressful and I’m hoping I don’t either break down or have an anxiety attack.

    My past supervisor would have let me work from home – perfect solution. However, my newer supervisor is a “butts must be in seats at all times”. I have put him on a medical information diet; my physical therapy after one surgery went very slowly, delaying my physical return to work (although I worked from home full time). He spoke to HR, and they went to my medical provider and required my physical therapist to provide an update after every session (i.e. can this person return to the office now?). This was done secretly, my PT told me about it.

    While I know everyone is going to say “Leave, toxic boss”, I’m within a couple years of retirement and pension, can’t leave and don’t have a reasonable option to internally transfer (my skill set is extremely specialized).

    Do I go to my grandboss, who was indirectly involved in the secret HR activity, or to my great grandboss (jumping over both their heads), or just take a sick day (which may not a good look after the recent surgery, time off and work from home).

    1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      ” This was done secretly, my PT told me about it.”

      Someone from the healthcare sector will know more about this than I do, but this sounds like a HIPAA violation if you are in the US. You should report this to the relevant government agencies.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        It’s a HIPAA violation if the PT complied, I’m pretty sure. If the PT told them to step off, it’s not technically illegal for someone outside of healthcare to make illegal requests.

      2. CL Cox*

        It sounds like OP was on FMLA and the usual way doctors do their out of work letters is to say that the employee will be out until x date, which is when the employee is due back into the doctor’s office to see how they’re progressing. So FMLA is approved until that date. The doctor then needs to send another report on that date to say whether or not the employee may return to work and, if not, when the next evaluation is. If the doctor in OP’s case handed over the evaluation to the PT (saying, for instance, that the employee could return when PT determined they were able to), then the PT needs to submit a report as well. If the PT didn’t word their report correctly or wouldn’t commit to a return to work date, then the PT has to submit a report after every single visit to say whether or not the employee can return. In the OP’s case, it sounds like the company wasn’t getting the reports in a timely manner and had to request them instead. The PT company should be used to FMLA reports, so it sounds like maybe this PT was new and maybe hadn’t dealt with FMLA before and didn’t realize that a report after every visit is standard.

      1. CL Cox*

        They don’t need access to medical records for the company to ask if an employee is able to return to work.

    3. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

      My advice is sick day.

      All your work needs to know is “had surgery, returned,” and all they need to know about the sick day is “sick. May or may not be related to recent surgery.”

      Going through the medical hoops is only going to increase your anxiety, and your concerns about everyone nosing into your medical business should go to HR (your boss and grandboss tried to get your physical therapist to violate HIPAA, this is a thing that can make the company liable, you can adjust your script to “I know they were doing it out of concern but this is a huge liability” if you think you need to smooth things further over.)

    4. Holy Moley*

      Do you have any sick leave/annual leave you can take that day? I would do that before going to grandboss since your boss in unlikely to let you telework.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        +1 – sounds like a great day for a mental health break to me. Don’t tell boss ahead of time; just call in sick and if your boss pushes, tell them you ate something bad.

    5. edj3*

      I was dx’d with breast cancer last spring and felt the same way about Pinkober.

      You have my sympathy for sure.

      1. Anon for this work episode*

        Thank you. It’s great that some survivors can celebrate and participate in these awareness events, but some of us are still too raw to be around them. I hope your treatment goes well, and (from my own experience) make good friends with the nurses, they can be amazing carers and actively participate in your treatment and understanding of what’s happening. Best of luck and my fingers are crooked for you!

    6. Anon for this work episode*

      Thanks everyone. I was on FMLA, and my doctor would provide a monthly update, which documented the next date he would reassess me for work. PT was once or twice a week. My supervisor went to HR because (I assume) he wasn’t happy with monthly updates and wanted constant weekly updates. When my PT told me about this, she also said that all her email and phone calls to my HR would simply state that PT continued to go well and that any work fitness decision had to come from the doctor, so she had my back. I also heard (informally, verbally) from a friend in HR that my supervisors request was “really odd, and they’d not received that kind of a request before”.

      I’ve been trying to figure out if I should go to great grand boss with a request to telecommute ( we’ve had a great relationship), but am concerned that it’d create a s*itstorm, or just take a sick day right after returning from FMLA. Kinda feel like there’s no great answer here.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I don’t know enough to comment about the PT and medical record updates, although it sounds like a shitty situation.

      Is it possible for you to take a day of PTO on the “red day” and avoid it that way?

    8. KMK*

      Sounds like a great day to have a migraine. Your mental health is important. Don’t go in. Sleep late, check your email from home if you feel like it.

    9. Emilitron*

      If you don’t want to take a sick day, I’m brainstorming other alternatives… Are there any satellite offices you could visit? projects you could schedule a multi-hour meeting for? Friend whose desk is far away from the action who you can go collaborate with that day (aka hang out in their office doing work-from-home stuff but claiming to be in a meeting) Option to set up a filter on your email that dumps all emails with the word “heart” to a low-priority quarantine folder?

  36. Manders*

    For about a month, I’ve been dealing with a situation where something I was doing for work used to be considered great, but now a system has changed and there are very bad effects not just from my recent work but all 2.5 years of it. My whole job is now about undoing everything I did. This isn’t unheard of in my field but it’s a huge deal and the consequences are very serious.

    I’m having trouble staying positive at work. I’m also getting paranoid about being fired or other people getting laid off because of me, and it’s hard to stay focused on powering through a mountain of work when I’m trying to hide the fact that I’m having regular panic attacks in an open office. This also hit right on the first anniversary of my mom’s death, so I’m in a pretty emotionally rough state already, but I can’t take any time off to get my shit together because this work has to be done fast.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for… hanging on by your fingernails? Keeping it together on the outside? Not constantly being paranoid that every meeting is going to end with a pink slip? Losing my job would not be the end of the world, I’m prepared for a soft landing, but doing this work and not knowing if I’ll be let go at any time is really demoralizing.

    1. agnes*

      I hope you can remind yourself that the work you did for 2.5 years was work that management wanted and needed at that time. . The fact that maybe now they recognize that this path wasn’t the right one is not your fault. Things change. Management sometimes makes strategic decisions that in retrospect, aren’t good ones. That’s on them to own, not those who simply executed the strategy. Your knowledge of the work is why you are the perfect person to undo the work.

      1. lasslisa*

        This! You are not the reason that work was done or done wrong! Even if you, say, misread a “must not” as a “must” in a training document, there should still have been some sort of oversight… and it sounds like this is a much newer change. If you were busy building up the company inventory of blue teapots, and now that color of blue paint is classified as a controlled substance, that’s a lot of work to do now to undo your last two years of work but it’s not you who screwed up – it’s whoever was in charge of anticipating changes in the regulatory environment.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Captain Awkward has a great post on working while depressed, and much of it could be used here. Search “captain awkward #450” to find it.

      Also, can you talk to your manager, a serious sit-down, where you ask about whether your job is in danger? Loop her in as much as makes sense in the situation.

      Good luck!

    3. LizB*

      What is your manager’s take on this situation? Does she understand that you were using best practices for 2.5 years, and it’s not your fault that the practices did a complete 180? Is she offering any support in remedying the situation (temps or coworkers to help, reassurance that this just sucks)? If you told her you were worried about getting fired or being the cause of lay-offs, would she be able to reassure you? Surely if you were the one doing this work for 2.5 years – again, following the best practice at the time, you’re the best possible person to undo it because you know exactly how it was done, and it would make absolutely no sense to fire you. Frankly, even once the un-doing is finished, if they fired you for previously doing your job to a high standard, that’s ridiculous. The standards changed out from under you. That is not about you or anything you did wrong.

      Other than that… be really really kind to yourself at all possible opportunities. Wear your favorite clothes. Watch your comfort TV shows in the evenings. Get a meal kit delivery service for a little while (they often have good introductory deals for the first few weeks) to ease the mental load of that. If you have a partner or housemate, make sure they know what’s up, and see if they can shoulder a little more of the at-home work for a bit. Get a massage, a mani-pedi, a spa treatment. If you have an exercise routine, keep up with it as long as it’s feeling good, or ease up a bit (but don’t ditch it entirely) if it’s too much. You are in crisis mode at work and in your emotions, so make all other areas of your life as easy and comfortable as possible.

    4. AnonAcademic*

      It would be really strange for you to be penalized for a procedural change like that. Did the issue arise from a miscommunication or is it something like, a new set of regulations that mean you have to re-do a bunch of processes? If it’s the latter, it sounds like you might be overly invested in your job – you presumably work for a larger org, have a manager, etc. who are also responsible. If this was a fireable offense (or fireable if not corrected within a certain timeframe) they should have raised that with you. If it were me personally I would feel much better just asking “Is my position in jeopardy due to this situation?” rather than having anxiety over it.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Make a plan for worst case scenario. Figure out what you will do if you get shown the door.

      Probably not the answer you want to hear but I found that this is a good way to deal with fear/worry. You say you would have a soft landing. So I am thinking money is not a big concern? Perhaps what you need to do is figure out ,what you are going to do with yourself for the rest of the day if you are pushed out the door at 11 am. Some folks are more concerned about the moment and less concerned about the long run. Try to nail down what exactly concerns you and figure out a plan for that.

      Next, I think you already know this, but it bears repeating. These employers that make a person feel like they could lose their job at any moment are really crappy employers. Every employee is of value, every employee is an asset. The shame is on THEM for how you are being treated.
      You could just decide you are done playing their game and give your notice. You could decide that you could work for a company that values you and the people there are HAPPY you showed up for work today. You may decide that waiting for the other shoe to fall is just too much unnecessary drama in your life.
      It’s hard leaving under any circumstances. Picture yourself several months out do you think you’d eventually be proud of yourself for extracting yourself from this torture?

    6. Manders*

      Unfortunately, I was laid off today–so it wasn’t actually paranoia, I was reading the writing on the wall correctly. I’m peeved at my (now former) boss for telling me repeatedly that my job wasn’t in danger, but I’m lucky that I did read the situation correctly and made some plans for a possible layoff in spite of his promises.

      It’s reassuring to hear that it’s not my fault I was doing the work I was told to do. It’s a bit hard to explain the niche of marketing I was in, but basically, my work was completely dependant on a different company’s choices. For the last couple years, my work was excellent by this company’s standards. When that company decided to change something, it put me (and probably hundreds of people like me at other startups) out of work very fast. I’m going to take some time off to regroup and look at other areas to move into. I do think I’m very good at marketing, but I’m reaching the age where it’ll be difficult to weather this kind of rapid up and down cycle if I want a mortgage, kids, etc. If I work for a small company again, it’ll be one I start myself.

      2. Stephen!*

        I am so sorry you had to go through that, but am glad you were making contingency plans. I hope you find a new, better job quickly.

  37. merp*

    Y’all, I am burning out on my complicated situation of at-home-vet-care tasks for my recovering cat, and it won’t resolve for another month. As much as I wish it didn’t affect my work, it absolutely does. I am exhausted from not sleeping much (morning meds at 5:30!) and have a headache constantly from stress and I don’t have the energy to do anything but the minimum. No advice needed really, there’s nothing really I can change, but encouragement or commiseration welcome.

    2. Call Me Dr. Dork*

      I understand. I also have a sick cat who need to go to the vet today for follow-up after multiple surgeries. He’s off some of his post-surgery meds, and that does help. But I know the feeling of worry and stress and lack of sleep.

    3. blink14*

      I feel you! My senior cat was hospitalized in 2018 for 4 days, and then was on oral, liquid antibiotics twice a day for 6 months. In those 6 months, there was exactly one night I left her in the care of one of my parents, and otherwise her care was entirely on me. Hand feeding for the first few weeks, multiple follow ups and ultrasounds, preparing the medication, etc. It’s exhausting! Such relief, for both of us, when we could stop the oral meds and fortunately she’s still doing well today.

      Hang in there! Cut out anything unnecessary or adjust your evening routine to accommodate for some more time and rest. I have my own chronic health issues, leading to constant fatigue, and during those 6 months I allowed myself take out meals more than usual, had groceries delivered, cut corners on house chores as much as I could, etc.

    4. cat socks*

      I totally understand! I’ve been in a similar situation with my cat and it can be tough. Wishing your kitty a speedy recovery.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      So much sympathy for you. For about 6 months I had to get up between 12 and 1am every day to give my senior cat medication, so I’ve been there. Hopefully kitty is on the mend.

      1. merp*

        6 months! It’ll end up being 3 months for me and I can’t imagine going longer. But also I never imagined going as long as I have, so I suppose we do what we must. She’s been pretty stable for a couple weeks now, so it’s just me trying to keep up and sleep enough and not miss too much work.

    6. bdg*

      I think I am probably in the minority here, so I hope I don’t get beat up, but my cat has diabetes (requires insulin injections 2x/day, 12 hrs apart) and was on antibiotics for some infections (daily liquid medication) and it’s just… exhausting.

      I finally told myself that he’s a cat, not a human. I’ll do my best, but if his insulin is 15 hours apart or he misses a dose of antibiotic bc I just don’t have time to force it down him… well, that’s ok. He’s in his younger advanced years (older middle-aged, I guess) but he wouldn’t have lived this long as the feral kitten he was. I love him, but he’s not a child.

      Anyways, I feel you. I’m very lucky that I recently got a raise or else paying for his care when I’m out of town on weekends would be ruining my budget. I desperately hope his diabetes will go away and just be managed by diet bc I cannot imagine doing this for the next 5-7 years of my life!

      2. Workerbee*

        Agreed. I love my pets and to me they are “people,” yet there’s also quality of life to consider–on both sides. With all due caveats for life-threatening, emergency things–if the pet’s happy to take a small break from antibiotics/invasive procedures and you’re happy to take a small break from having to give it (the relief at not having to see their misery while you’re telling them this is necessary is not to be discounted), I consider that caring for the whole self, you know? I’ve been through enough long bouts of pet diseases that alleviating their dread even for just one round is still caring and providing care.

    7. Dust Bunny*

      I spent the last year of my late dog’s life getting up at 3:45 to give her that pill that had to be taken on an empty stomach an hour before eating, letting her out (leaving her out in good weather), going back to bed, getting back up at 5:00, letting her back in, feeding her, giving her that other pill that had to be taken on a full stomach, and that third pill that I was told tasted like beef, and then going off to work (she would be in the care of my parents during the day, but my dad left for work just after I did and Mom wasn’t up yet). It took me almost a year after she died to get over that schedule.

    9. Lyudie*

      Oh I remember you posting a while back! Unfortunately we are in a very similar situation…our 15 year old cat was just diagnosed with lymphoma. We have him on prednisone and antibiotics to keep him comfortable (at his age and with advancing kidney disease, he isn’t a good candidate for treatment). He has been doing mostly ok, especially the last couple of days. Even though we kind of suspected it before we got the confirmation, it hit hard and thank goodness my manager is an animal person…I went home and took PTO that day. I knew I would not be able to focus at work. It’s so hard, even on days like today when he seems to have completely missed the memo that he is sick.

      *hugs*

        1. Lyudie*

          <3 We are going to keep him as happy as we can for as long as we can. We have pain meds if we need them (they knocked him out/made him loopy and it's hard to judge at the moment if he's in pain and how much, so we're holding off). He's getting ultra delicious food instead of his prescription kidney food (with the vet's blessing, she said it's unlikely the kidney disease will progress faster than the cancer) and he's eating good, drinking, running around and generally being his usual jerk self.

          Thinking good thoughts for you and your kitty too.

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      I feel ya – my boy is not well. I’ve had to change my evening routine drastically to get up early for him, and had to hand off some normal evening chores (aka ‘nudging the kid’s bed time routine and walking the dog) so that I can go to bed earlier.

    11. Goldfinch*

      I’m so sorry. I am also doing 5:30 am meds, for a cat who needs thyroid pills twice a day for the rest of forever…in my case, the timing is because I need to leave the house by 6:00, but it’s still so inconvenient. I have to get ready, then bundle up in my bathrobe, since she fights me like mad and claws/drools/sheds. All attempts to trick her into taking them via treat have failed, so brute force it is.

      Honestly, some days she just refuses to swallow, and I just let her spit out the soggy tablet and go on with my day. I’m doing the best I can, but perfect diligence is just not possible with an animal that doesn’t understand.

      1. merp*

        Weird blessing for me is that these health issues have necessitated a stomach tube, so at least meds are easy – mix them in her food and she takes feedings just fine. But that’s also part of the problem of course, I have to feed her about 4 times a day, which is hard to fit around an 8 hour day at work.

        But you’re completely right – there’s no way to explain it to them, so we just have to do our best and do what they will let us do.

      2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        Thyroid medication can be given with an ear gel. Is that possible for your kitty?

  38. windsofwinter*

    I applied for a remote job yesterday. I wrote the best cover letter of my life (which isn’t saying much!) so I hope to at least get a call back. They have previous remote experience listed as a requirement, which I don’t have. Fingers crossed anyway!

      1. windsofwinter*

        Thank you! Luck to you as well. I’m not super happy or unhappy in my current job, but it’s a big pay increase and I’ve come to realize that working remote is a goal of mine.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Me too; good luck to both of you! I put in my cover letter that moving there in future is not out of the question.

    3. Workerbee*

      Good luck!

      And you can address any “but do you have previous remote experience” questions with sterling examples of time management/check-ins/etc. And that you have a dedicated working space with amazing WiFi. :)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. And don’t forget to mention any time you have worked from home as a one off (e.g., you were too sick to be in the office, but not too sick to work, so you stayed home and worked remotely for the day; you WFH when the repairman came, etc.) – that experience counts too. Some people think they just mean if you were a full time remote worker and don’t think to talk about those other instances.

        Good luck!

    4. Easily Amused*

      Just wanted to throw in a reality check because I’ve been there… I’m a Software Developer and have worked remotely in the past. I’ve been applying to remote positions on and off for a few years now and have never so much as gotten a first round phone screen. In my experience, I’m up against hundreds of other applicants from all over the world so it’s very different than applying to local jobs. That said, I’m still trying so I wish you all the best of luck!

  39. Purple Rain*

    Here’s to hoping that Leap Year Birthday employee finally got to enjoy an awesome day off for their birthday!!

    1. windsofwinter*

      Amen! Or even better, hopefully she’s moved on to bigger and better things. That letter was SO bizarre.

    2. Fibchopkin*

      OMG- YES! That OP was just so… petty and awful though, and her follow-up letter where she doubled down and claimed to have her company’s full support on the policy! I feel pretty convinced that the only way the Leap Year Baby is going to get satisfaction is by leaving that place, so here’s hoping she’s landed somewhere better!

      1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Just read her original letter and the update. Wow- the original OP is just insane. Any decent manager would give the Leap Year employee February 28 or March 1 (or, as she insisted, the next workday after if that fell on a weekend or holiday. That manager is ridiculous.

  40. English Major, Really*

    I wanted to share a small success: This week, I was asked a remarkably ridiculous question at work.
    I really wanted to say, “Dude, you are not paying me to do that.”
    But I opened my mouth and out came, “That is significantly out of scope for the work I am assigned. Doing that would require a significant renegotiation of my time.”
    Thanks, Alison and the Commentariat for slowly seeping into my brain.

    5. Nom de Plume*

      Ha! I’ve gotten really good at saying, “Yes, we can do that. It will require that we start over from scratch and re-work a few hundred hours of work. Would you like me to pull together a change order so we can get started?” Usually, once I say that people normally say, “Nevermind. Keep doing what you’re doing”

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Oh very well done!
      Am I right presuming it was met with a briefly blank look before they recognized it as an extremely professional “no, not unless the boss changes my assignment!” ?

  41. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    How do you handle it if a coworker is publically Wrong.
    Scenario: We’d mildly screwed up, so a student had to stop in and ask us to do something that should have been done automatically. (It’s a little complicated but think, student had paid their fine, and we’d entered the payment in one place but not another. This second step is handled by my coworker, but the staffperson who had collected the fine hadn’t updated her as they should have). No big deal to fix, definitely our fault. My coworker went off on this poor girl, telling her that it was her job to check that everything was cleared, having me check and double-check that the fine was paid (she clearly owed no money! We could see the record of payment!). Eventually she went through the steps to update it, still scolding the student.
    Patrons should be able to expect that if they pay their fine, their account is fully cleared. They do not have any responsibility to check that we’re doing our job. I didn’t intervene because I didn’t want to start a fight right there in the library, but I did feel awful. I would have disagreed with her professionally, but I know her and she wouldn’t have backed down. That assumption was proved right because afterward, my boss came out of her office to tell us that the student was not wrong–and my coworker still kept arguing.
    Should I have defended the student in the moment? Thoughts?

    1. Purt's Peas*

      You probably should have, your boss certainly should have.

      This student had to do extra work due to a mistake made by staff–coming by the desk, which is not a big deal, but something a little extra–and was *scolded*! What a crummy encounter for that person–to be scolded like a child when you’ve actually done everything right. Is that student going to be worried about going to the library to do their schoolwork? Will they ask a librarian for help if they need it?

      I think the right solution was probably for your boss to step in and take over the interaction. A possible solution for you was to step in afterward, and assure the student that actually they’d taken the correct steps.

    2. Turtlewings*

      Oh dear. I think the big problem here is that, by not expressing your disagreement with your coworker, you silently supported the mistreatment of a patron, who has now gone away with a terrible experience where a staff member rudely and unjustly berated her, as well as telling her things about library policy that aren’t true, and that was just… allowed to stand. You say you couldn’t have gotten your coworker to back down and didn’t want to start a fight but… this was worth starting a fight about, and worth letting the patron know she didn’t do anything wrong, whether your coworker “backed down” or not. I’m very conflict-avoidant myself so I sympathize with you not knowing what to do in the moment, but I’m sorry to say I do think you did the wrong thing by not speaking up.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I want to know why the boss didn’t come out earlier if they heard this? This would have been an excellent time for boss to shut this down, hard.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Exactly. As soon as she heard this nonsense, the manager should have come out of her office and corrected the employee, then apologized to the patron.

          Everybody dropped the ball here.

    3. Miss May*

      I think that at the very least, an individual should be able to keep their cool without losing it at anther. Even if your coworker was right, its just plain wrong to berate. Maybe if it happens again try to step in?

    4. CL Cox*

      I agree with the others. Next time, step in and say something to co-worker and then complain to Boss if co-worker starts yelling at you instead.

    5. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Yeah, I really should have, at least to show support for the student

      Further context–we have different positions (I’m a librarian, she’s a library assistant), but we all report to the same boss and I have no supervisory/management role. She’s also been there 10+ years and I’ve been there under 2.

      In addition, on two or three occasons my boss has lost her temper at students/scolded students in ways that make me deeply uncomfortable, so I wasn’t entirely sure my boss would have my back in this case. The students are at least a bit in the wrong in these cases, like being sort of noisy, or having coffee by the computers, but nothing egregious. She’s also scolded me–in front of patrons–for not immediately telling students off for minor infractions. Which, fair enough, those are the rules, I need to get better at enforcement…but also some of our rules are overzealous, and if it’s finals week, I don’t care if a student has a covered cup of coffee. And when you’re yelling at me to an extent that students come up afterward to apologize to me for me getting in trouble(!) it’s a little too far.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        . . . they’re still the rules and stuff like a covered cup is a reasonable request in a library, around computers.

        You don’t have to “tell them off”, but maybe if you correct them politely before she catches them, it will help defuse some of this. We don’t allow food in our reading room at all but it’s pretty easy to just ask patrons to stow whatever they have in either the visitor’s lockers or our kitchenette. Politely, as a gentle reminder rather than a scold.

      2. LizB*

        Ditto to what Dust Bunny said: reminding a student of a rule is not the same as telling them off. “I’m sorry, you can’t have any drinks near the computers.” = problem solved! Plus, if you enforce the rules kindly like that, fewer students will end up on the receiving end of your boss’s or coworker’s (totally unprofessional and not acceptable) scolding.

      3. Diahann Carroll*

        Oh – so both your coworker and your boss are asses. I’d never want to visit this library – good lord.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      Your coworker was a jerk.

      Another library employee here: Please defend the student next time, even if you don’t know yet that she’s in the right. It’s easy enough to say, “OK, this isn’t showing up the way it should–hang on a minute while we figure out what happened.” Even if it turns out he student is wrong, it’s never better to embarrass somebody.

    7. Jules the 3rd*

      Sounds like defending would have escalated. I’ve had some luck with deflecting instead, like, “Hey, Coworker, this piece is done, what happens next? Can you tell the student what to expect / look for?”

      Focusing on the solution, and helping the co-worker get focused on that too.

    8. SomebodyElse*

      I feel like you could have diffused situation at the very least.

      Maybe next stepping in to say “Hmm.. it looks like something didn’t happen the way it should. It’s cleared now and we’ll take a look at it to make sure it doesn’t happen in the future” If nothing else this will give the student a chance to get out of dodge, then you can deal with the situation and the coworker without involving the student.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Sounds like you have a culture of arguing in your work place.

      You can assume that because she argued with the boss, she will not treat you better than that. So when you do stand up for someone have a firmness and finality in your voice. Use a tone that says, I will not keep discussing this.
      This is awful to say but for your own self-preservation you may prefer to just pick the battles you know the boss will back you on.
      Your real problem is the public scoldings. No one should be scolding anyone publicly. Perhaps you can start with the boss and ask her to keep your corrections in private conversations as opposed to across the room. If I were a patron, I’d probably leave if I saw this. Maybe you notice people leaving in the moment and you can point out to the boss that the public airings are driving away people.

      This is a tough nut to crack. Eh, if it were me because I tend to kick about things, I might let myself be overheard by the boss telling my cohort, “We can’t be yelling in front of the people. And we really cannot yell at the people. People will stop coming here if they see too much of this.”

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I observed a similar situation that might give you a way out if it happens again.
      The interrupting person tapped the scolder and said “Hey you’re past due for your break. I’ll finish up here for you.”

  42. Forsyth County*

    I got laid off at the beginning of the month and I have a new job but I’m really depressed about it. I’d been looking for work for three years with no luck. I’d been wanting to leave my job and we all knew layoffs were coming and I am lucky to have a job but I’m only taking it because I have to. I’d been looking so carefully and I wanted to make sure I was improving my job situation – office job, closer to home and not in the nearby big city, something I was interested in. Now it’s not an office job, after the interview I knew it wasn’t a job I wanted to do, it’s an even longer commute, and I have to get up at 4 am after working an afternoon shift for years and years. The worst part is I got turned down for an amazing job that I would have loved. That interview went so amazingly well and it was such a good fit. It’s like they took my resume and wrote a job description. The interview went over by 20 minutes. Everything just clicked. I really thought that I must have gotten turned down on all those other jobs because THIS was the job I was meant to have. Then a big fat thumbs down.

    I just don’t have any choice at this point since I’ve only gotten one (terrible) job offer in three years of looking. I’m just so sad about it. It is just looming ahead and I can’t even be properly upset since I know so many of my former coworkers are on unemployment. I mean the people are perfectly nice, it’s a decent paying job, and I’ll be on my best behavior but it sucks not to be excited about a new job. After such a crappy 2019, I really thought 2020 would be better. Thank you for listening. I just needed to vent.

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      That really sucks, I’m sorry. I got laid off back in 2017 – first time ever in over 25 years of working. My (incredibly brilliant and compassionate) wife pointed out that I needed some time to mourn the lost job. I’d never heard it phrased that way before, but yeah. In a sense, it is a sudden change that I had no control over. Giving my emotional side a chance to be sad and make peace allowed me to move on.
      I wish you the best in finding something new for you.

      1. Forsyth County*

        Thank you. It’s dumb because I didn’t even really like the job much anymore! I just wanted to be all “You aren’t breaking up with me! I’m breaking up with you!” ha I did have some really great coworkers I’ll miss for sure though.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          And that’s valid. It still sounds like you need to grieve – losing a job, even one you don’t like all that much, is very hard on the spirit.

    3. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I hear you. I’ve only been looking for about 18 months, but that’s a depressingly long time. I’ve had a few options come up where I could take a job if I moved or was willing to commit to 3 hours of commuting per day. I know myself, and the commute is not an option. My wife doesn’t want to move from where we are, so I’m a bit stuck with looking locally. Where the job market is garbage.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The “other people have it worse” technique works up to a point and then it doesn’t work. For example, it’s not instructive on how to deal with life at 4 am. I have many other examples.

      Try to go a little easier on yourself here. Take some time to lick some wounds, you’ve had some pretty tough bouncing around here. Then get back on track with the job search. One thing I have told myself is, “I am safe here for the moment.” If we know something is short term, it makes it much easier to deal with. Try to think of this job as an opportunity to catch your breath. At least the people are decent and the pay is okay, so try to think of it as a temporary safe place to be.

  43. Master Bean Counter*

    I’m surrendering to the computer overlords today. I’ve had not one, but two programs lose data on me in the last week. First one was no biggie. The second one ate a ton of data. Hopefully the IT person will be able to recover.

  44. Aye Nonny Nonny*

    So I know you’re next supposed to badmouth previous managers in an interview, but what about when it’s about a reporting chain instead of the boss personally? My grandboss is a sales guy put in charge of operations and it’s going…about as well as you could expect. He is not the main reason I’m looking but how do you bring this up? I’m trying to avoid people (micro) managining work they know nothing about.

    1. CL Cox*

      If this was a change in the reporting structure, you could say something like, “Due to recent changes/restructuring, the company culture/my job description changed and I no longer feel it’s a good fit for me.”

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      If you’ve been there more than two years, ignore it. Focus on ‘looking for new opportunities, and your Teapot Manufacturing Process is so interesting!’

    3. SomebodyElse*

      In what contest do you think this would be brought up?

      If it’s the “Why are you looking” I’d come up with a different answer and avoid this reason altogether, especially if it’s not your main reason for looking.

    4. Nom de Plume*

      Interviews are not lie-detector tests or courts of law where you must tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I’m not saying to lie, obviously, but you can omit things like “I hate my idiot boss” in favor of saying things like “I”m up for new challenges”. If you are concerned about working for a micromanager, you can ask your future boss about their management style and how much day-to-day feedback they typically provide their direct reports.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This.
        Try to think of a reason for leaving that more closely ties into why you WANT to work for the new place. This reason does not have to be your primary reason for leaving, it doesn’t have to be your secondary reason for leaving either.

        You can take the new challenges reason and add, “I see that your position involves X, Y and Z also. I am interested in doing more of that type of work and learning more about those areas.” This is sort of a redirect but it also keeps you from feeling painted into a corner conversation-wise.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Focus on the main reason you’re looking (if it’s suitable material to talk about in interviews – if not find something more ‘generic’!) and probe as part of the interview when you ask about the prospective new company’s culture, reporting structures, etc – e.g. in general when you look up the reporting lines do people report to people with some knowledge of their area? (rephrased suitably for an interview). I don’t think you need to ‘badmouth’ a particular previous employer in this case, just generally mention it’s something you’ve experienced in some cases etc.

    6. Emilitron*

      This isn’t information that you need to share to help you answer their questions. It’s presumably one of many reasons you’re leaving, and/or the things that are bothering you are cultural non-fit he’s implemented not the fact of his existence.

      The real temptation to share this info would (for me) be to confirm that you’re not risking a similar situation, and that type of question is something you can frame without talking about him at all. “I know in this type of organization it can be hard to have a management team that’s equally good at the technical skills, the organization skills, and the personnel aspects of management. How does that work here, which branches of the organization are typically promoted to group leadership and how does that flow into the C-suite structure?”

  45. WantonSeedStitch*

    I’ve recently moved up from a manager-of-individual-contributors role to a manager-of-managers role, and am in the process of hiring my replacement for my previous role. It’s the first time I’ve ever hired a manager who would report to me. What are people’s favorite interview questions to ask in this kind of situation? I am not trying to hire someone to be “another me,” but I want to make sure I get the right person. As a potential complication, some of the people applying for the role have previous management experience and some do not. The position is one that manages several reports here at our organization, but at peer organizations, sometimes does not manage anyone at all, so not having the experience isn’t a dealbreaker (I didn’t have management experience when I took on the role several years ago).

    1. em_eye*

      I would ask a lot of scenario-based questions: “How would you handle if an employee did X?” If they’re going to be hiring, ask what their approach to hiring would be – even if it’s a small part of the role, it’ll reveal what they value in staff members and their management style will probably follow from that. I’d also try to come up with a question that speaks directly to the culture and their specific role as a manager. For example, when I interviewed for a job that involved managing a lot of very independent high-performers, I was asked “Tell me about a time when you had to coach someone from the sidelines without stepping in yourself.” If you actually need managers who are more hands-on, you might ask “Tell me about a time when you had to step in and provide guidance to someone who was really struggling.”

      I also like “Who was your favorite boss, and why?” especially for people with no management experience. I used to ask a more generic question about management style but almost everyone gave some variation of “I don’t like being micromanaged but I do like managers who communicate a lot,” to the point that it wasn’t very helpful. I’ve found first-time managers tend to emulate the boss they respect the most (or overcorrect away from past managers they didn’t like) until they find their own style that works for them so this might tell you a lot about how they’ll be as a manager.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Heh…the “who was your favorite boss, and why?” question sounds like a really good one, but since at least one applicant reports to me…it wouldn’t be a great question to ask! I do prefer scenario-based questions, so these are helpful. “How would you handle [scenario]” is a good replacement framework for my usual “tell me about a time when you were in X situation, how did you handle it?” that makes room for people who don’t have management experience.

    2. Kathenus*

      Great question. I looked back through some of my lists of potential questions from past manager hiring situations, some of my favorites are below:

      What qualities are important to you in a supervisor? How have you embodied these qualities in current/past positions?

      What would be the top 3-5 priorities you would focus on in your first few months? What might be 1-2 longer term goals?

      How would you deal with an employee who routinely disagrees with your decisions?

      What are a manager’s responsibilities regarding implementing organizational decisions that may be unpopular with staff and with which you may not personally agree?

      What feedback have you received from others about your communication style? What do you feel are your strengths in this area, and what areas could use improvement?

      What types of people do you find easiest and most challenging to work with?

      What is the most useful work-related criticism you’ve ever received, and why?

      In your experience, what is the key to developing and maintaining a good team?

      Describe what you feel your management style will be in this role. How will you develop trust and loyalty in your employees and supervisors?

      How would you handle the transition of coming in from the outside into an established team; specifically what would be the biggest challenges and how might you go about earning the respect of the staff?

      Please briefly describe your experience and career path, and explain the decisions you’ve made as to positions chosen and left.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Ooooh, some good ones in here. I really like these ones in particular:

        How would you deal with an employee who routinely disagrees with your decisions?

        What are a manager’s responsibilities regarding implementing organizational decisions that may be unpopular with staff and with which you may not personally agree?

        What feedback have you received from others about your communication style? What do you feel are your strengths in this area, and what areas could use improvement?

        Describe what you feel your management style will be in this role. How will you develop trust and loyalty in your employees and supervisors?

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Not sure if it is helpful, but adding a story in case you find anything you can take from it.

      My now-ex (husband at the time) was applying for a role as “manager of individual contributors” (in a blue collar environment); he was currently an IC himself but occasionally ‘deputized’ for the manager and acted as shift leader on off-hours shifts etc. and wanted to make that ‘step’ into management.

      The “manager of managers” (‘you’ in this situation) interviewed him with a bunch of questions that seemed to take a very… let’s say ‘authoritarian’ view of the way management should be. He gave me a few examples and I can’t remember all of them as it was years ago, but the impression he got was that it was a problematic team/department/(?company).

      The “manager of managers” asked questions like ‘what would you do if your direct report is refusing to complete the task you assigned them?’ He answered in the gist of: “well, first I’d talk to them and find out the motivation for refusing. Is it because they don’t have enough info to do it? Do they just have a bad attitude or are lazy? Is there a concern about not having the right safety equipment? etc. Whatever their motivation is for not completing the task, I would take that into account and then probe further from there. If they are just being lazy I’d be quite harsh on them but if there are safety concerns I’d raise them to whoever it is”, etc.

      I didn’t see eye-to-eye with him (ex) over a lot of things, but I thought that was a pretty good answer!

      Apparently that was the “wrong” answer for that interviewer, as the feedback he received after the interview was that they were looking for a manager-of-ICs who would be really tough, finally bring the direct reports into line and not tolerate any more of their ‘nonsense’ as they had been getting away with too much.

      The manager-of-managers was trying to solve the wrong problem (and then compounded it by doubling down on their own perspective rather than take into account an external viewpoint presented by someone with no ‘skin’ in the situation who could give a completely objective view).

      My ex was upset and annoyed at the time as it would have been a much better paying role and with more authority and autonomy which was what he was capable of — I pointed out that it was a bullet dodged though as he would then have been subject to shit from both above and below! Maybe it was for the best!

      TL;DR: I suggest you introspect a bit as to what your replacement would need to be good at, what problems do they actually need to solve, etc. Not necessarily things you superficially perceived as problems when you were in the manager-of-ICs role, but also you have a unique perspective on it.

      Even if someone doesn’t have explicit management experience it’s often possible to tell (and as a manager-of-managers I think you should have the skill by now) to develop a sense/intuition for people who have the quality of leading others.

  46. Miss May*

    I had an interview! For a government position!

    It was weird though. I’m not sure if its because its a government position, or if its a symptom of a bigger problem.

    1) They just launched straight into questions for me. Which is fine, but every interview I’ve been in has talked about the position for a bit first? Like, I had to ask what the hours were, if there was overtime, etc. When I asked what a typical day was like, I didn’t get a clear answer.
    2) I didn’t get a tour? Which, again, is fine, but every lab I’ve been apart of has always done a small “here’s our facility, this is what we have…” spiel.
    3) The manager has only been there since the “6th.” I’m assuming the 6th of this month, since he didn’t elaborate. And, they alluded to a lot of management change recently.

    Are these all red flags? Am I just over-worrying? Or is it just like that when interviewing with government jobs? Any insight is appreciated.

    1. Phil's coworker*

      I don’t think these are red flags, but maybe yellow flags to be considered in conjunction with other information. I would also assume “the sixth” means “of January 2020,” which would actually explain a lot. They didn’t give you a lot of information, because they’re just walking into this and working on coming up to speed.

      If they make you an offer, you can ask at that point for a tour or ask any additional questions you didn’t get to ask yet, especially if any of it is a deal breaker.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      I’d say three yellow flags, but not red. And the 6th was the first Monday of the year, so more than likely, yeah that one’s new too.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      1. I usually expect that the person has read the job description which answers most of the hours/overtime questions, and start off with the very basic-type questions like “what interests you in this position/working at this organization?” I always leave time at the end of my interview for people to ask me questions (like “what is a typical day,” which I DO answer as best I can).

      2. I don’t give people tours of our office as part of the interview process: we do that as part of our onboarding of new employees. If someone considers the physical space a really important factor in deciding whether they want to work here, I would hope they’d bring that up when I prompt them to ask questions, and would give them a quick tour at the end of their interview period.

      3. Is it possible that the manager has been *in that role* since the 6th, having been promoted from within, and is hiring their replacement? Or have they been at the organization since the 6th? If that’s the case, maybe it was a situation of “we don’t want to hire for $position until we have someone in $manager role, so they can hire the employee they want.”

      These don’t seem like red flags to me, though an inability to describe a typical day seems like a yellow one.

      1. Miss May*

        Thanks for this! The job posting didn’t list hours (just duties) or anything which is why I ended up having to ask.

        1. Not All*

          I’ve been a federal govt employee for decades & changed jobs an average of every 3-4 years. I have only ONCE had an interviewer mention hours and that was because weekend/evening work would be required, which is fairly uncommon. Not listing those is definitely not a red or even yellow flag in government.

    4. Nikara*

      What stage are you at in the interview process? I have been part of several government interviews, and sometimes the first interview is really just figuring out if you are qualified for the position you are applying for. They then do a follow-up interview that is more about if you fit with the office and have good interpersonal skills. The latter one is when you would learn more about the job itself.

    5. CheeryO*

      I did a bunch of interviewing for state jobs 5ish years ago, and every interview was very stilted compared to even my most stuffy private sector interview, even though I did well enough to get several offers. One interviewer did a little more small talking and gave me a tour of the office, but I found out later that he has a habit of going rogue and wasn’t really supposed to do that. The name of the game is keeping the playing field as even as possible through the interview stage, and it’s probably just easier for them if they don’t even try to do tours.

      Not opening with a description of the actual job is a bit strange, but I wouldn’t consider it a red or even a yellow flag, necessarily. I would focus your energy on the job itself and whether or not you want to come on board at the same time as a new manager.

    6. Fed PM*

      If this is a U.S. government position, there really aren’t set hours. For the application and interview part, all you’d probably discuss is whether the position is full-time, part-time, and whether there’s any traveling. Usually discussion about the hours is done on your first day between you and your new supervisor because there are different options. You could work a standard shift (8-4:30 or 9-5); flexitime (arriving any time between 6am – 9am and working 8 hours after that); you could work on an alternate schedule with 8 9-hr days, 1 8-hr day, and 1 day off for every two weeks; you could work an alternate schedule with 4 10-hr days and 1 day off per week; or a regular shift with a start time of your choice. There is a possibility that you didn’t get an answer on the typical day question because you may not have the appropriate security clearance for them to be able to tell you in the detail that you’re looking for.

      I’ve never had a tour of the buildings or facilities during interviews when I started my jobs. The tours were always done on the first day of work and conducted by HR or my supervisor. Maybe the labs/science orgs do something different so I could be out of my depth on this one (I’ve worked in IT-based agencies).

      I agree with the others that #3, management turnover, could be a flag, but I’d say it’s a yellow flag. The best people to talk to about whether it’s a yellow flag or a red flag would be the current people that work at the organization. If this is a U.S. government position, look up the agency or the lab on Best Places to Work (.org website) and see what the ratings show — ratings come from current employees — and see if that helps.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      I’d say this sounds like typical government, though it likely depends on the level of government. At the federal level information like what the hours are is public, and I wouldn’t think to mention it to someone I was interviewing. Ditto overtime, most of the people I hire are exempt, so don’t get paid overtime. Must admit I would have a hard time answering a question about a typical day because while our work is desk-based – e-mails? meetings? paperwork? – what happens each day can depend on whether we are dealing with a crisis. In recent interviews I think the best discussions that probably provided the kind of information you are looking for were under the category of work-life balance.

      You mentioned work in a lab, so in your field it may be different. Go with your gut on whether you are seeing red (or yellow) flags.

    8. foolofgrace*

      When I interviewed for a government job with the State (which I got!), the interview panel had a list of questions they had to ask, and they told me that they had to ask everyone the exact same questions for fairness’s sake. At the end they gave me all the time I needed to ask questions. No tour, but I did get a job description before the interview.

    9. Uncivil Engineer*

      I work for a large municipal government (i.e., City of ___). This is very normal.

      We launch in to the questions because we have to ask the same ones to everyone in a certain amount of time and if anyone complains about not having enough time to answer because we wasted time at the beginning with chit-chat, we risk having to start the interview process over again – with new questions – because it wasn’t “fair” to them.

      We don’t give tours. Depending on the level of the position, we may be interviewing dozens of people. We don’t have time. And, there is nothing in our office that is going to “wow” you anyway.

      A new manager isn’t necessarily a red flag either. My city recently went through a large management change when a bunch of top managers were fired for allowing a culture of laziness (I’m paraphrasing). They were replaced with more competent leadership and the work has gone better because of it. We also lose a lot of people because of pay but the pay is stated in our job posting so it’s not a surprise. And, I swear someone retires once a month in my department. Lastly, we do a fair amount of transferring laterally to get more experience. All of these are situations in a which a new manager is hired. Not all are for bad reasons.

    10. Gumby*

      For #2 – depending on the government lab, it is possible that there are things they *can’t* show you as an interviewee too. Which is true for non-government labs and other work-places as well. Easier to keep you in the public areas than take you back and be all “whoops, can’t go down this hallway, you aren’t authorized to access half of the rooms thisaway.” (Not that anyone would be that blatant about it – because you don’t advertise where the juicy secret projects are taking place, duh, but the general point stands.)

  47. Rainbow Dash*

    This isn’t a question- but a rave. My husband’s company had a surprise IT appreciation night for their team at Dave and Busters after they finished a tough project last Friday. My husband called to invite myself and the kids, but due to the misbehavior of our youngest son, I didn’t feel comfortable taking him to a fun night. My husband’s boss sent home a $250 gift card to the place for our family to enjoy later on and a nice note thanking me for supporting the man who supports the company’s computers.

    3. littlelizard*

      That sounds awesome! If I ever got a $250 gift card to pretty much anything I would lose my mind entirely.

    6. It’s all good*

      I was an external project manager (Consultant) for a software implementation. The internal team worked their butts off on the project. The company did not want to do anything for them at the conclusion. So I gave each a Fair Package that included admission, food, rides and a parking ticket to enjoy with their families.

  48. RestResetRule*

    Today, I finish my first week at my new job.

    I quit my last job right before the holidays for many reasons, among them that I was being bullied by a coworker and leadership didn’t care, and my mental health was shot to the point where I was having panic attacks. I couldn’t take it anymore and I was sick of crying and feeling like a rat in a wheel. I had nothing lined up but I applied like crazy and tried to stay hopeful. In late Dec, I interviewed for my current role and two weeks later, got an offer. People here are friendly, it’s a small team with a lot of flexibility and I actually look forward to going in to work.

    Just a reminder to anyone out there feeling like they are at rock bottom at work: You can get out of there! If you don’t feel valued. find someone who will value you and treat you like a human being.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Did you allude to the “being bullied” etc in the interview? If not what did you ask?

  49. Vee*

    I feel like a failure.
    My ultimate goal is to earn a PhD and do research (ideally as a university professor). I have 5 years of research exspierence including 3 as a full-time research assistant, my name is on papers and I am 1st author on a poster being presented next month. But my issue is that my GRE math score is bad. I study for months and still blow it, even when I do ok on prep materials. I was recently diagnosed with dyscaclia (learning disability, like dyslexia for math some people say). I mentioned that in my initial emails to advisors and in my personal statement but I don’t think it helps anyone look beyond that to my application. I know is insanely competitive and there’s a lot of pieces to an application, but I think that they see my score and my app gets binned. But I know I can do it. I know the scientists around me think I can do it.

    This is my 3rd round of rejections. I’m getting scared that I’ll need to give up and I’ve gotten some advice to try and find something else. But I don’t want anything else. I’ve wanted this for years and just about every academic and career choice I’ve made were to prep myself for a doctoral program.

    I feel like a moron and a failure that I’m stuck at a dead end research assistant job and even if I wanted to leave the best I can do is more entry level work. Im afraid I pigeonholed myself into a niche (as far as the research I’ve been involved in) that I cant get out of.

    I just turned 26 and am not happy about my future prospects at all and am not happy with myself.

    1. yala*

      26 is still very young! It might be worth taking a break, if you think you can. My friend took a few years off from getting her PhD after she felt she had hit a road block, and I think that really helped her when she finally got it.

      You are certainly not a moron! Dyscalculia is very real, and sadly still not very understood, and many classes/tests don’t take it into account.

      Is there a counselor you could speak to about getting accommodation while testing? Or who could recommend a test tutor experienced in students with dyscalculia, who might be able to provide more targeted help with the test?

      Best of luck.

      1. Vee*

        I know the age thing is silly, it’s just so disheartening that I imagined so much more for myself at age 18, second year of college, graduating college and even up to last year. Right now I’m sending out a few job applications to see if there’s anything that might grant me a fresh perspective.

        Some advice I’ve gotten from other PhD’s is to try in person tutoring with someone who is experienced with disabilities (up until now all my tutoring has been online). I tried to find tutors who specialize in disabilities but it seems like they were mostly used to working with school aged kids or high schoolers and weren’t local anyway. I think I’m going to try one more time. One scientist I know suggested in person, specialized tutoring for one more shot and then if that doesn’t work maybe consider something else for my life. And while I know that’s respectable and probably the best advice, it does make me sad.

    2. CL Cox*

      Can you get accommodations for your learning disability and re-take the GRE with those in place? It sounds like pulling that score up would, if nothing else, give you a boost of confidence. Can you ask the scientists around you to look over your CV, cover letter, and applications and see if they have any suggestions to help you be a better contender?

      1. Vee*

        I did get extended time for my latest GRE and didn’t even crack the 20th percentile. My “best” was 32nd. What really bothers me is that I was doing the official ETS practice tests, with the extra time, and did pwas scoring around the 50th percentile- which was fine for the program’s I was applying to. I sent my 32nd percentile score from a few years ago.

        I had my scientists help me with my CV and personal statement the last 2 cycles.

      1. Vee*

        Psychology, in a more social concentration. My interests are focused on animal-human interactions and how animals affect quality of life.

        1. Prof*

          Hm. Look, my GRE math score was bad, and I got into a top PhD program. But this was in the humanities, so the math score was less relevant than my verbal/writing score and my writing sample. If you were in STEM I would say that math will matter, but in the social sciences it could go either way.

          Try to get accommodations, like someone above suggests. But also, make sure every other part of your application is in top shape – it may be that with good letters of rec, a strong personal statement (which should be about research interests, not your personal background), good undergrad GPA, etc., the committee might overlook a low GRE.

        2. Cassandra*

          So… I wish I could message you directly but I know a researcher who has done human-animal interaction research, is in social psychology, and I believe the university may be doing away with GRE scores or at least considering other options. It is possible. Start reaching out to potential advisors directly and discuss your situation with them. If they can see your publication record and you have good letters of rec, it’s definitely possible to get in! Good luck!

          1. Jemima Bond*

            I’ve been sifting application forms this week, for an external recruitment campaign for a post (not very senior but experience required; definitely not entry level or a trainee post) here at the Guild of Ninja Assassins (government agency).
            Pro tip: if you are completing a competency based application form where they specifically advise you to use the STAR format (and they explain what that is!) and give you up to 250 words for each question, do not answer all three requests to describe your ninja skills and assassination experience with “yes”. Or worse, “no”. Or “cabbage distribution”. Ok the last one wasn’t a quote but it was something similarly irrelevant, and the first two were quotes.

            Also a moment of silence for the applicant who answered “all candidates must have the Advanced Ninja Certificate or equivalent experience, please state” with “ruminating over the challenges of life and observing people whilst nibbling on avocado toast” (not a direct quote but very close). What with the rest of their application (no you are not in any way saving the world) I wondered if this person had applied for a bet.
            It was a bit of a dumpster fire all round.*
            *i’ve picked up that phrase from AAM and I love it. Wheelie bin fire doesn’t have the same ring!

          2. Vee*

            I think I have one more try in me, at least right now. It’s so frustrating that there’s this test, pretty much completely unrelated to my field, that nearly every PhD or post-doc I speak to says is a crappy metric that doesn’t mean a thing for your success… and yet it’s the first hurdle.

            It just feels like everything I’ve done doesn’t matter.

    4. knitter*

      I have dyslexia and am also a special ed teacher.

      I think there are a few things you can do:
      1. people with specific learning disabilities need significantly more “at bats” with the same information before it is internalized and able to be reliably recalled. There is a weakness in the area of the brain responsible for processing information related to sound letter combinations so my brain ends up using additional regions to make up for the weakness. Repetition is important. Anxiety around testing exacerbates the recall difficulties. Ask me how I know ;)

      2. Multi-modal learning. Whatever you’re trying to learn, try to make it more interactive. Check out: http://www.ldonline.org/article/5602/
      Also, a friend recently recommended this book: Making it Stick: The Science of Successful Learning
      I use TouchMath when my students struggle with computation. When the struggle is more around math processes, I use resources like this: https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/learning-at-home/homework-study-skills/download-graphic-organizers-to-help-kids-with-math?_ul=1*1sxbjhb*domain_userid*YW1wLWxremRnYzdlVUFWWUhncHZfRm93WFE. (particularly the step-by-step one)

      Also math anxiety is a real thing. Jo Boaler has written books about it related to teaching. Maybe some of her resources could help.

      I’m a fixer so I always go straight to advice and I’m in general not good with dealing with feelings. But here’s a go- Having a learning disability is hard. It is even harder when you’ve proven yourself but have this one weakness that you can’t get past (however that looks). I frequently lead training workshops and still have anxiety that I misunderstand the material. Maybe imposter syndrome or maybe related to the stress of struggling with something most people perceive as “natural”. Anxiety/Depression and AD/HD co-occur with up to 50% of LD cases. While they are frequently presented as separate diagnoses, I feel like they are all woven together.
      I did have specialized reading instruction, so I can only imagine the struggle you had in school without specialized instruction in math or the struggle that you may have now that you that you have to learn these skills. Maybe you could see if you could qualify for adult services? In my state, people with disabilities can get support services through DDS. It isn’t as extensive as the services in school, but maybe look into that? (Look, the fixer came out again).

    5. Samantha*

      If you’ve been studying for months and received time extensions for the dyscalculia but still have a low score, it may be your test taking strategies that need work rather than actual mathematical skills. It’s been years since I took the GRE, but I remember that strategy was just as important as knowledge.

      It’s counterintuitive, but if you try to solve the problem and produce a solution, you’re wasting time and giving yourself a headache. Instead focus on eliminating wrong answers, which leads you to the correct option through elimination. I don’t have dyscalculia, but I imagine that this strategy might be more effective.

    6. CorgisAndCats*

      Don’t get down on yourself. Keep in mind generally faculty can pick one person, and they tend to pick the person who closely aligns with their own research goals. I am in a psychology adjacent field (Ph.D. in counseling psychology) so perhaps you will disagree but I feel like you could tailor many adjacent fields to your research interests. Have you thought about looking outside general psychology programs? Also, what about looking into masters level programs? It sounds like you are afraid of getting stuck so brainstorming ways to move forward, even if it’s not with a Ph.D. at this time, might be a good pursuit. Good luck!

    7. AcademiaNut*

      STEM PhD here.

      A couple of things occur to me. One is the question of what sort of programs you’re applying for. If you’re applying at top schools, you’re going to be competing against people who have research experience *and* top grades *and* top GREs *and* good reference letters, and probably aren’t making the first cut after which they start looking at details. I know people who got really frustrated applying for grad school, not realizing that decent grades, research experience, a mediocre subject related GRE and good references simply weren’t going to get them into MIT or Caltech. They later got into decent but not top schools. I will add the caveat that if your goal is a professorship, a mediocre program isn’t worth doing – where you do your PhD matters, and you need a place with a good solid program and research faculty.

      The second is wondering about how you explain your dyscaclia. If you simply say that this is why your math score is bad, I can see it hurting your application – they’ll be worried you can’t handle the necessary math in the program. So I might highlight how you can handle the math. For psych, I expect that statistics and regression analysis would be key areas (you’re probably not going to be using tensor calculus, for example)- can you demonstrate that you can do this sort of work?

      1. Vee*

        I certainly wasn’t applying to Yale or Harvard. And I know it could very well be that my GRE wasn’t the problem and that I just got beat by a better fit, or more relevant experiences or whatever. If I magically knew that was why then it would still suck, but hurt a lot less because I feel like I could fix that. It feels like I can’t fix my math grade, even if that’s not true.

        I mentioned the dyscaclia in my application and immediately mentioned that it hasn’t stopped me from doing t-tests, anovas and correlations, evidenced by some of my stat work being in a paper and poster.

        I know it would be in no way appropriate or conducive, but I really wish I could just flat out say I suck at most math but stat’s doesn’t “feel” the same way algebra does nor do I have the same issues and that my comfort with stats has gone up tremendously since working with SPSS on a regular basis.

    8. Canada PhD*

      Not sure if you will see this as it’s a day late, but I assume you are in the US? Are you able to look internationally? Here in Canada the GRE is not a requirement for graduate programs (I didn’t take it) and there are lots of students from the US. I encourage you to look into it as your experience would be valued! There are both direct entry PhD programs and master’s programs that allow you to transfer into a PhD 1 year in.

  50. EAP*

    Can you go to EAP about a personal issue that’s completely unrelated to work? Have any of you done so?

    1. Manders*

      Yes! If they refer you to a therapist, that therapist can talk to you about anything, it doesn’t have to be work-related. And there are some programs spouses can use even if they don’t work for the same company. I went through my husband’s EAP when I was looking for grief counselors and that was considered normal.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yes, you can. Our HR department, when talking about our EAP, has specifically said so. I have not done so, but I know people who have.

    6. ThatGirl*

      Absolutely. It’s there to support you in your personal life so that you can do better at work – the issue does not need to be work related.

    7. Bernice Clifton*

      I have, but it wasn’t a good user experience for me.

      I thought I was calling to talk to a therapist, instead it was a call center where the rep gave me numbers of therapists that I could see a few times and submit reimbursement for. This would have been acceptable expect that the office locations were incorrect, numbers were incorrect, or the therapists didn’t have openings for a month.

      1. ThatGirl*

        The therapist referral part is common, but they shouldn’t have given you wrong information – you may want to let your HR know that their EAP service isn’t doing their job well.

    8. Not All*

      In my experience, MOST uses of EAP are for non-work issues. Mental health, financial, legal. Heck, my divorce was all three & I used it for that…the attorney gave me a substantial discount for being referred through EAP.

    9. merp*

      I have, twice! In one case it was super helpful and in the other it wasn’t, so like others are saying, it really depends on how effective your EAP provider is. But both times for me, it was entirely unrelated to work and there was no expectation that it would be.

    10. Echo*

      Yes, this is what it’s for! I have done this and it was IMMENSELY helpful. It was on a day when I was dealing with a personal stress so immense that I couldn’t concentrate on work, and talking to the EAP therapist helped me reframe the stress and get into a place where I could at least get a minimal amount of stuff done.

    12. Octo*

      Yes, and our EAP was set up that you could get X appointments per “issue” before a referral to paid therapy. So I did X appointments for Topic A, and then a few months later did X more appointments for tangential Topic B: strategies to deal with anxiety (stemming from Topic A).

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s for YOU as a PERSON and not you as an EMPLOYEE!

      Another way to reframe it.

      Our EAP poster literally lists personal things that happen that are what they’re there for [for their examples, to encourage people to reach out for assistance.]

    15. Nessun*

      Yes, you can. Anything that affects you affects your work. I’ve used our EAP for nutrition information/assistance, in addition to work/life balance and counselling.

    16. Lyudie*

      I have not used it because I am seconding the chorus of “use it!” My company actually sent an email just before Christmas reminding us of the EAP during the stressful and potentially difficult holiday period, which I thought was pretty awesome of them.

  51. Smeralda*

    I have a job offer from a very large corporation that outsources its background checks. A few days ago, I received follow up questions about my check from this company (stuff that seemed ridiculous, like why didn’t you include your part time job at McDonald’s on your resume for a data analyst position? And can you please comment on a two week discrepancy between what you stated your end date was for a part time position you held three years ago and the end date their head office reported?). I replied quickly but haven’t heard back. Anything.

    The part that is stressing my socks off is that the company that offered me the job makes a big deal about filling out various forms at 2 weeks to the start date and not a day later etc. Unfortunately, when I reached out to the company to request these forms, they told me that “everything is fine we are just waiting for background check approval before we can send you the forms.” I mean… ugh.

    I’m feeling panicky and would appreciate any insights about this process

    1. Nicki Name*

      Assume that no news is good news.

      Beyond that, I can only commiserate. I went through the same process with a very large corporation once, and since the process was outsourced, my contact at company making the offer didn’t have much visibility into where the process was. I was warned that it would usually take X time, but sometimes it took longer, there was no way to tell. Like you, I endured what felt like an agonizingly long time with no word at all, until one day, out of the blue, I heard that everything was done and we could finalize my start date now.

    2. bdg*

      My company does these sorts of background checks (give them 3 personal references, then they call them and ask them for another person who knows me, all to verify I lived/was doing where/what I said I lived/did). I’ve had a couple of them get in a hangup, but there was always more flexibility on the paperwork before start date than they said. The background check is the bit that has to be done before you start. Good luck!

    3. Zephy*

      Possibly helpful? tip: sometimes Gmail likes to direct emails straight to Spam or Trash, especially if they have attachments or hyperlinks, even if they come from someone that you’ve been corresponding normally with up to that point. For my current job, I spent an entire day refreshing my regular inbox, looking for a packet of new-hire paperwork I had to complete (including a background check authorization), before checking Trash on a lark about 6:30 PM and seeing the message from my hiring manager containing said packet that had been sitting there for hours.

      Otherwise, have some Jedi hugs. The waiting is the worst part.

    4. AnonyNurse*

      I had this … one employer (well known non profit) just totally ignores attempts to verify employment. This background check agency sent an email requesting I submit W2s instead. So I did. And never heard from them again. Heard from employer later when I’d checked all of the many many boxes that I was good to go. So assume that means you’re done.

    5. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      These kinds of stories freak me out a little bit. Most of my previous job history dates are best guesses because I didn’t keep good records of things like start and end dates, have no idea where my tax records from before 2010 or so are, and at least once I have found that I put the wrong year on a résumé. It doesn’t usually matter for my line of work but if I ever wanted to apply for something that requires background checks I’d be severely disadvantaged!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yep. This should go into lists of things to teach interns & prospective graduates!
        Especially anyone who might find themselves looking at careers that could involve levels of government clearance …. federal government, politics, aerospace, etc.

  52. Knitted Cat Hats*

    I just had a job interview, and I think I came across as generally competent but really boring. Whenever I’m talking with a boss-type person, I get really nervous and wind up talking really quickly in a bit of a monotone. I feel like it makes me come across as dry and devoid of personality, which isn’t great when I’m interviewing for teaching jobs! Any tips on how to get less nervous/dry around authority figures in interviews?

    2. Emilitron*

      It’s hard to tamp down feeling panicked about interviewing, yet still keep your positive emotions on-tap and ready to go. Think about the aspects of your work that make you genuinely happy, and try to take a pause in the midst of your conversation to mentally acknowledge that this (job/career/task/topic) is something you like. If you’ve rehearsed an answer to tell me about a time when you had a big success until it’s just a retelling of how… it was almost bad but then technical detail and I did a thing and it was fine… take a breath, try to actually remember how you felt proud of yourself for solving that problem, and how you felt relieved and happy when it came out well.

  53. Time-Sensitive paycheck naivete*

    I was hired in August at a non-profit at which I previously had an unpaid internship. I was originally hired as a program assistant, but when I came in to fill out my paperwork (before I had started), my new boss asked me if I would step up to a room lead position (different job description, slightly more responsibility and some added prep work), since they were familiar with my work and thought I could handle that position. I said yes, because I was excited to have more responsibility, but didn’t ask about compensation, so I’ve been being paid at the same rate I was hired at, with the exception of being paid for an extra hour of “admin” work weekly that isn’t available to program assistants.

    A few weeks in, I began to wonder if I should have asked for a bit more money. I trust my employer (it’s a very equity-minded workplace that looks out for us), and assumed if other room leads were generally paid more, I would have been offered that rate when offered the position. This was perhaps naive, but I don’t know. As time has worn on, I’ve been given more responsibility. Most recently, my boss asked me to start doing a new task at a different location than my primary location. This new task, while more responsibility, would actually cut into my total hours, and I can’t afford to take that hit. I plan to tell my boss that I can’t afford to lose my current hours, though I would be happy to help out if there’s a way in which this new responsibility wouldn’t result in a net pay cut. My (again, probably naive) hope is that she realizes she could just offer me a higher hourly rate and it would all even out (and maybe even come out better for me in the end) – but this seems unlikely. Can anyone suggest wording that might help point her in this direction? I need to email her my response by EOD today and I don’t work today, so I won’t see her in person before she needs my response.

    1. Turtlewings*

      You gotta speak up for yourself. Even the best boss in the world doesn’t have your interests at the top of their agenda at all times, because they’re not the one living your life. (I’m really confused, btw, how taking on a new responsibility could lead to working FEWER hours — you should be getting paid for all the hours you work, regardless of which task you’re doing.) Don’t wait for your boss to think of offering you more money, ASK for it. The sooner the better, since it sounds like you probably should have had a raise ages ago and no one thought of it because you didn’t ask.

      1. ACDC*

        I had the same thought about how a new responsibility would lead to fewer hours, but then I figured Time Sensitive was saying she wouldn’t be compensated for the time to travel between locations. You absolutely should be paying you for travel time and mileage (if applicable).

        I used to do accounting for a nonprofit, and they were upset when I didn’t go to the bank to do deposits often enough (I went once a week). I told them I preferred to consolidate trips since the bank was 20 minutes away (one way). They said they didn’t care and wanted me going 3x a week minimum. So I started logging time for 1-2 hours a week of driving to and from the bank.

        1. Time-sensitive paycheck naivete*

          It’s a little complicated – essentially, the org runs several programs at multiple sites. Currently, I travel to the main site, work at one program which starts at 3:30, and then accompany clients to the other site for a later program which starts at 6:30. The new responsibility is to set-up for the later program, which was previously done by someone higher in the chain than me who is now leaving, but doing that set-up will mean I can’t work the earlier program at the main site and accompany the clients across town, so instead of being paid 3:30-8:30, I’ll be paid 5-8:30.

    2. ACDC*

      You’ve been there 6 months now, that seems like a reasonable timeline to go back and ask to talk about your compensation as your role has evolved since you started. However, it sounds like you are hoping your boss will get your subtle hints that you want more money – she won’t. You need to be really direct in this situation.

    3. OperaArt*

      All the approaches you’ve mentioned are very indirect. Be direct about what you want instead of hoping your boss has a flash of insight or reads your mind.

    4. It takes a village*

      Here’s some language to start with. Change it up to fit your voice and your personality, and add/remove anything you need. Good luck to you!!!

      Dear BOSSPERSON,

      Thank you for offering me the XX position. I am honored and excited to be given more responsibility.

      I have two questions, one is for more info regarding the position before I accept:

      1- What is the pay for this position? When I was originally hired, it was for program assistant position at a pay rate of $XX. However, when I came in to sign the paperwork, I was offerred and accepted room lead position position, which I have now been working and enjoying for six months. However there was no discussion of additional compensation for the additional responsibilities from program assistant to room lead position. With adding more responsibilities to my work-load, I’d like to revisit the salary, and ensure I’m being compensated appropriately.

      2- How many this new position be managed without cutting the current amount of hours I’m working? I currently work 3:30-8:30 by running the two programs at two offices. If I perform the setup for the later show then I’m not able to work the first show, which would make my hours 5:00-8:30, losing 2.5 hours of work (and pay) per week. What can we do to ensure there is NOT a loss in hours with this new responsibility?

      Thank you for taking the time to read this and work with me on solutions. As I stated, I’m excited to take on this new responsibility and continue moving up in (COMPANYNAME).

      -NAME

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Go back to your boss and ask for more; why do you blindly “trust my employer” to “look out for us”, actually?. I fek that you “assumed if other room leads were generally paid more, I would have been offered that rate when offered the position. This was perhaps naive, but I don’t know. As time has worn on, I’ve been given more responsibility”, and were caught out being naive here. Sorry.

  54. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    People who have a work-issued laptop but usually work in the office (ie, not remote or in the field or at client sites), how often do you take it home at the end of the day? Every night? Only when you’re expecting to be working out of the office? Every night? Weekends only? And what do you do when you have your laptop with you, but need to go somewhere else before or after work (gym, grocery store, networking event)?

    My work desktop computer is going to be replaced by a laptop soon, and I’m starting to think on how to incorporate this into my routine. I am not in a role where I’m routinely on call outside business hours, but I do live in an area where winter storms are possible, and I occasionally find myself in a situation where I’m well enough to drive to work, or do my daily work, but not both. These were part of the reason my boss put me where I am on the list to convert from a desktop machine to a laptop. (There are other reasons as well, not relevant to this part of the discussion.) I’ve had to log into the new laptop a couple of times already while it’s being set up, so I know I will be getting it in the near future. I’d like to hear how other people in similar situations deal with this.

    1. theImpossibleGirl*

      I have a laptop and I take it home every night. This is really just in case something happens (ie – freak storm, power outage, the office burns down) and I can’t go in. If I go somewhere after work before going home, I just leave it in my bag in the trunk.

    2. ACDC*

      My company requires that we take our laptops home at the end of the day. I wasn’t a big fan at first, but it is a lot more convenient for when emergencies happen and I need to unexpectedly WFH.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is our new policy too. Used to be you could leave the laptop with a cable lock or locked in a cabinet but after some thefts where secure areas were breached, we are supposed to take them home. I already did this due to WFH flexibility. The hardest part is to remember any peripherals (headphones, charge cable) that get scattered around the desk during the day.

    3. Crazy Broke Asian*

      Caveat: I work in a very casual office. There are lockers provided, and we’re in a generally safe area.

      I only bring mine home when:
      1. There are strong possibility I’ll be WFH the next day, because of weather or other issues.
      2. When I need to travel for work on the weekends, which is needed during certain period each year.

      Other people bring theirs home most of the time, and some people even do it every day and use them for personal stuff.

      How you deal with it will depend on what uses are allowed by your IT and how comfortable are you with privacy. My IT lets us use the laptop for streaming and other personal stuff as long as not too personal (adult stuff), but other companies may not allow it. I don’t use mine for personal stuff because I’m very concerned about privacy.

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        Fortunately, personal stuff on my work laptop is not a concern for me. I have both a personal laptop and tablet that I can use for things I don’t want IT to have access to. So no temptation to use the work laptop for things I’m not already willing to access on my current work desktop.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          That’s a good idea to keep them separate. At my last company, my department had laptops instead of desktops, and I had one coworker who took hers home very night because she used it like her own personal laptop. Then IT blocked a lot of the sites she visited online (mainly the music streaming sites), and she was bummed – she didn’t download stuff to her own personal device and ended up being locked out of her account.

          I only ever took my laptop home when I knew I’d need to work late or on the weekend to meet a deadline (it was admittedly rare for me – I was a highly efficient proposal manager who got most of my work done well ahead of schedule). We weren’t generally allowed to work from home otherwise unless we had a pre-scheduled emergency like a delivery or extended doctor’s appointment, so I just kept my laptop docked in its docking station and made sure the station stayed locked.

    4. Call Me Dr. Dork*

      I just got switched to a laptop a couple of months ago, and I take it home with me. There are other people on my team, though, who keep theirs locked at their desk when they are out of the office – they could conceivably remote into it when they are out.

      When I have my backpack but am not at home, I just keep it right beside me or locked in the car in a location not visible through the windows.

    5. ThatGirl*

      At my last company, I took my laptop home nearly every night because I lived ~50 minutes from the office, occasionally needed to check something or work in the evening, and a lot of people regularly worked from home. Plus I never knew when something would come up (weather, car problems) where I could work from home but not make it to the office. (If I needed to stop somewhere else before going home, I’d stick it under my front seat or in the trunk.)

      My new company is much closer to home, and they also discourage working from home, so now I leave my laptop unless I have a specific reason to take it.

    6. Coverage Associate*

      I try to take my laptop home every day, but if I have something else to carry, like a big book, I don’t.

    7. cat socks*

      I take it home every night. I have the ability to work from home so if there was some kind of emergency that required me to work remotely I would be prepared.

      Once I left my laptop at work and ended up needing to take my cat to an emergency vet appointment the next day. I actually stopped at work real quick to get my laptop so I could work while at the vet’s office. After that is when I started bringing it home regularly.

      I use a backpack and keep it in my trunk if I need to run errands after work.

    8. Just a PM*

      I’m a bus commuter, about 45 minutes one-way. In winter (Dec through Mar), I pay super close attention to the weather. If there’s even a hint of potential snow, I’ll bring the laptop home with me. Otherwise, the rest of the year, I leave it in the office unless I know I’m going to be working from home the next day. I use a backpack for transport and will leave the backpack in the backseat car if I’m stopping anywhere on the way home with a coat thrown over it to hide it from lookyloos.

    10. JustaTech*

      I leave my laptop at work unless I know I’ll be WFH (scheduled, or for weather or the sniffles). I also took my laptop home for the couple of times I was on-call.
      This has meant that I’ve come down with a cold and driven in to work just to get my laptop and WFH, but I live really close to work so I’m OK with it.
      I don’t get emails that I have to respond to at night so for me it’s not worth taking it home and risking forgetting it again in the morning.

    12. Cog in the Machine*

      I’ll take my laptop home if I’m going to be on travel the next week, or if there’s nasty weather coming in. Even in the case of weather, though, I’ll only take it home if I have a full day worth of work.

    13. we're basically gods*

      I only brought mine home when I knew I’d be working from home the next day, or when there was likely to be a big snowstorm and I might need to work from home.

    14. Lyudie*

      My company requires us to keep our laptops with us so I bring mine home every night (it often lives in the car overnight…I think it’s ok generally to leave them in cars as long as they are out of sight and the car is locked etc.). We work in healthcare IT though so I think a lot of that policy is about securing the data on the laptop not just securing the hardware. I’m forgetful so leaving it in the car is nice because I don’t have to worry about forgetting to grab it on the way out the door (I’ve done that…). I bought a nice computer bag laptop and I use it to carry all my work-related stuff as well as the computer (coffee mug, tea, snacks for my desk) and just got in the habit of having it with me.

      Once you get used to it I think you’ll like it, when you have a snowstorm or don’t feel up to going into the office, you are all set to be productive at home.

    15. Lime Lehmer*

      My coworkers with young children take home their laptops every night. I have a PC, but when winter storms threaten, I make sure that I have items that I can work on remotely.

    16. Jules the 3rd*

      Every night. I don’t carry a purse to the office, I carry a backpack with slot for my computer.

    17. AvonLady Barksdale*

      At one job, I only took it home if they were predicting snow. At another, every day. At my current job, I took it home on weekends and when there was a chance I would work from home or I was traveling.

      I often left it in my car overnight, because I once drove all the way to the office and realized my computer was at home.

    18. Goldfinch*

      I bring mine home every night. I can WFH, and we do have unpredictable weather, but aside from that: I’m one of about a dozen Mac users in the company, and we don’t have formal desk set-ups with locking clamps the way the Lenovo users do. I would be in deep doo-doo if I left my pricey machine unsecured overnight.

      I plan my commute accordingly, and often stop home to drop my bags off before continuing into town for evening errands.

    19. Mr. Shark*

      I generally don’t have to WFH, but I do so on occasion (especially once in awhile on the weekend). If I’m not travelling for work, which doesn’t happen very often, I wouldn’t really need my laptop.
      I do take it home every night with me. I lock it in the trunk if I stop off somewhere after work, in my laptop backpack, so no one can see it.

    20. Dumpster Fire*

      I have a personal laptop as well as a work laptop, so I use a portable hard drive to transport my files etc. between work and home. That way I can leave my work laptop there and just use my own computer when I’m working at home (and it also lets me keep my stuff very separate from my work stuff, while still having access to all of it.)

  55. Goose on the loose*

    I have a weird thing happening at work. I’ve been at my company for 6 months. I have a boss who I really respect and like working with. We regularly get the opportunity to hire vendors, and my normal process is to put a short list together of options I think we should hire and my boss generally approves of my pick. For certain larger projects, my boss, and sometimes even grandboss, get involved to give “suggestions” on who we should hire (which I always follow).

    There’s another newer addition to the company, who is the same level as my boss but not someone I report to. He has expressed interest in ensuring we hire diverse vendors. This is also one of my goals, and is something I try to accomplish when I put my shortlist together. However, Other Boss has been trying to go through me to provide input on who I should include on my shortlist. I asked him whether he wanted me to loop in my boss to explain, “Other Boss recommends we hire X” but he has resisted and says he doesn’t want it to seem like it’s coming from him.

    He will reach out to me separately about options, and will sometimes ask to have meetings with me to discuss “our” goal of hiring diverse vendors, and steps we can take to get there. This is something I have discussed on my own with my boss, and feel we are on the same page about it. When it fits with our business objectives we will prioritize diversity. I’m starting to feel like I’m a pawn for Other Boss and I really don’t want my boss to feel like I’m undermining her in any way. On a related note, during one of our meetings, Other Boss started speaking very poorly of one of his direct reports who I am social friends with. It made me very uncomfortable and I’m starting to question his judgment.

    As of now, I am keeping my distance from Other Boss, continuing to operate as normal with my boss, and just kind of maintaining the status quo. Any tips on how to navigate this?

    1. Fae*

      Have you looped your boss in on what Other Boss is doing with the vendors? If not I would definitely start there because it is weird/shady that Other boss is saying “put THIS vendor on the recommended list but don’t tell anyone that I told you to put them on the list.” I’m not saying the Other boss is doing something shady but it has the appearance of it ad you want to be covered.

      1. Goose on the loose*

        I have never added one of Other Boss’s recommendations to our short list without mentioning that Other Boss recommended X Vendor, and I only add them if I think it makes sense for us to consider them, but I have not told my boss that Other Boss has been asking to meet with me to talk about diversity initiatives. Partially because Other Boss says he wants to talk with my boss and all the other bosses at his level to get some consensus, and have them all approach grand boss together, and I don’t want to “tell” on Other Boss if it’s not a big deal or if he will be reaching out to my boss shortly anyway.

        I felt good about this plan until he showed some poor judgment, and now I am: 1. afraid to get on his bad side by “telling” on him; and (reversely) 2. nervous that he has poor judgment overall and will somehow pull me into this and make it look like we are somehow aligned behind my boss’s back.

        I think when we need to hire a vendor next I’m going to ask my boss whether Other Boss has connected with her yet, and explain some of the things Other Boss and I have discussed just to front it with her, but treat it as more of a heads up rather than a conversation about Other Boss’s actions.

        1. CL Cox*

          Can you tell Other Boss that it’s not appropriate for you to discuss diversity initiatives with him until management figures out how they want to approach them?

        2. Mr. Shark*

          Yeah, don’t think of it as “telling” on him. If you want to, tell Other Boss you routinely include Boss in all of your new vendor additions, and just treat it like it’s no big deal and business as usual.
          I’d definitely tell Boss what is going on, but again, don’t sound like it is some clandestine thing going on with OB, just normal report up to your Boss about how things are going and what you’ve been asked to do.
          If Other Boss has a problem with it, that’s his problem. You do not report to him, and he should not be putting you in that position to keep anything from your Boss.

    2. CL Cox*

      I would advise not keeping secrets from your direct boss. I have never known that to end well, even if you were convinced Other Boss had your best interests at heart and would totally protect you from being fired. Your boss and grandboss have made it clear that they want input into who is being hired. If there are other factors you’re considering that they’re not aware of, that might make your decision seem strange to them. They also have the right to tell you how important each specific factor is. Other Boss does not have that authority.

    3. Someone On-Line*

      I think this is a great question to ask our boss. Say, “Other Boss is really interested in our vendor selection process, especially diversity. He has been doing x, y, and z. How would you like me to handle this?”

    4. ..Kat..*

      This sounds like Other Boss is having meetings with you that he wants kept secret. Tell your boss that Other Boss wants to have meetings with you to give you input and direction on vendor hiring.

  56. theImpossibleGirl*

    Our company has a work from home policy that allows you to WFH one day a week. I have a friend who does not abide by that policy. They hate coming into the office, and since no one from their team is in our office, nor is their manager, they don’t think they should have to, as long as they are productive when working from home.
    I am the type of person that thinks if there is a rule, it should be followed, regardless of how you feel about it. If you don’t like it, either work for a company that allows X thing you want, or lobby to change it.
    If it was anyone else, I would let it go, because I may not know that why a particular person is able to WFH all the time, or I may not care if they might get fired because of it. However, because the person in question is a pretty close friend, I am worried that if they continue to flaunt the policy, they could be terminated. My friend refuses to see this, and I want to let it go, so how do I do that? How do you not care about something someone is doing when you know it’s against policy? It’s not like they are breaking a law, but they could lose their job. Our company is not work from home friendly, so I do think that if someone higher up realizes it, they are in danger of being fired.

    1. ThatGirl*

      You realize it’s not up to you to fix your friend! It’s up to her and her manager(s) and if she’s aware of the policy and potential ramifications, but doesn’t want to follow it, that’s up to her.

      1. Kathenus*

        This. And as is mentioned here frequently in a variety of contexts, it’s generally ineffective to care more about something than the person that it directly affects.

        1. valentine*

          My only concern would be that, when confronted, she would try to take me down with her. Are you sure you won’t be in trouble if it comes out you didn’t report her?

    2. CatCat*

      I work with this person. I just remind myself that it’s really none of my business, not my problem, and that the person is an adult who can make their own choices. I am not the police of their choices.

      Also, you don’t have to “not care,” you just need to keep it to yourself.

      1. JustaTech*

        Exactly. It’s hard to make yourself “not care” but you can try to take a hard look at the thought “Friend isn’t in again today!” and then let it go. (This takes practice, and I’m still working on it as I’m in a very similar situation, but it is possible.)

        Maybe imagine that thought is like a ladybug you found on your computer. There’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s not helping anything by being there, so you just gently put it outside.
        (Now I just need to take my own advice!)

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Your friend is gonna do what they gotta do, and the company is gonna do what they want to do.
      Not your circus or your monkey.

    4. NicoleK*

      Does your friend’s boss care? I had a coworker #1 who routinely came in tardy (30 mins up to 2 hours). Coworker # 2 routinely left 1-2 hours early. Boss was either clueless or didn’t care.

      Either way, it’s not your problem.

  57. just a small town girl*

    need some advice on this situation:

    I’m the assistant to a very small department; our director and one peer who I’m slightly senior to who is in a production role, for both internal and external customers. My peer has the flu this week so my director and I (mostly me, because I have more time to do it) have been covering for her.

    The issue is two-fold. My peer, Michelle, is a great person but she’s a people-pleaser to the absolute core. Like, give you the shirt off her back because you said it was cute(and that’s not a fanciful exaggeration, she literally offered me her blouse because I said I liked the color). She struggles to get everything done in her position, because anytime someone walks in and says “hey, can I get a couple teapots this afternoon?” she drops the other teapot jobs she’s working on to help this person. And she likes to talk with people, and she tends to over-explain everything. She cannot say no, even when she has the right and should be following the rules that say you need to turn in teapot orders ten days in advance. She’ll say okay and take the order and stress about getting it done in one day. Even though our director has flat out told her to stop bending the rules, she’s literally incapable of telling people no, and will disobey and just not say anything when she starts to get snowed under and instead work insane hours to do everything which gets us all in trouble.

    All that leads to jobs backing up for months, things not getting done, etc. Most internal customers have learned to just deal with it, but it definitely reflects badly on our department, not to mention what it looks like to external customers. She just has no sense of time management or prioritization or…anything like that.

    So this week while she’s been out, I’ve cleared out the entire backlog of jobs that have been pending, including some which have been waiting since early December. All while only spending probably 60% of my time in her area working on these. People who waited a month for their teapots were shocked when I delivered them the first day I was taking care of her job, and I passed it off that the hard work had already been done, I just needed to polish the paint, though that wasn’t 100% true.

    My boss is aware of her shortcomings, and her and I have had many talks about how we can help Michelle, how we can address the internal image of this department(which we’re all new to), and how to get things on track.

    Is there anything I can do to be more supportive to my boss about how to address Michelle’s issues? Is there anything I can do at all to help this, or should I just stick to doing what I can when I can and let my director handle the hard stuff of dealing with it?

    Frankly, I’m concerned that my director needs to have a come to jesus moment and let Michelle know in no uncertain terms she needs to follow the rules, turn jobs away when she’s got too much on her plate, go to time management training and then implement it, etc. and set consequences if she can’t get there. I just don’t know if that will happen.

    1. em_eye*

      I don’t think there’s a lot you can do.

      Except, you can back up your manager if Michelle talks about her meetings with her to you. If she’s like, “Boss told me I need to manage my time better again, but people keep coming in with more orders, what am I going to do?” I think you can say, “I know you’re really overwhelmed, but can I actually share some advice that’s helped me prioritize things? I’ve noticed you do X, I used to struggle with that too, but it helped me to do Y.”

      If you’re already doing that and it’s not helping, then there’s probably nothing you can do. Just make sure you get credit when you do cover for her.

      1. just a small town girl*

        I definitely do that now; unfortunately Michelle is so flighty that I don’t think it sticks. I also try to underline that our boss is, y’know, our boss, that it’s not a great idea in the long run to ignore what she says, there is a reason why she does it, etc.

        But it’s hard because Michelle was, in another life, a retail manager, and I suspect she’s not used to having a boss who cares about anything, or is willing to help.

    2. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Oh geez. I don’t have much advice, unless you can put a sign on her desk saying “DO NOT ASK MICHELLE TO DO ANYTHING. PLEASE SEND ALL REQUESTS THROUGH (SUPERVISOR).”
      Or unless her boss is willing to check in with her constantly (at least once a day?) to redirect her and do a “Michelle, why did you start working on X, I told you you yesterday you needed to be working on A.”

      Does she do good work when she actual does work? If that’s the case, it might be worth making it so requests never go to her–her boss is the *only* person who gives her instructions. But that’s a lot on the boss, and so it would really need to be worth it.

      1. just a small town girl*

        Honestly, both of those options have been tried sort of actually! When she gets snowed under a lot and our boss gets wind of it, she hand writes a sign that says “Any jobs given to Michelle will be done x days later, minimum, thank you for understanding, *boss’s name*”. Unfortunately eventually it disappears, either because Michelle takes it down because she thinks she’s no longer busy, or if someone else does or if our boss does, I’m not entirely sure. Things can’t always go directly to boss though because she has to travel a lot and isn’t always in a position to take everything.
        Similarly she has a “check in” every day with Michelle to go over what Michelle is doing and she does try to redirect her but…she doesn’t always take it.

        She does really good work! Part of what slows her down is that she’s a perfectionist. For example. She went back and forth with an internal customer about the translation of lettering the customer wanted engraved in a second language that Michelle speaks, and she caught a couple of mistakes in it that she wanted the OK to fix. That’s great! But it added time and complication to the job.

        1. Please stop making changes in prod*

          It sounds like from now on all requests should go through you or boss for approval. I would say you could handle it to support Boss if you have insight into the backlog of requests and you can ask Boss if you have something you think DOES need to be done because of the stakeholder or requester involved. Implementing an approval process might help and enforcing that its unacceptable to go around that process…though you’ll have to be wary of people going around you straight to her.

          The most damaging part of this is your coworker has now set expectations that its acceptable to make these last minute requests and that they will be fulfilled on the drop of a hat. You’ll have to work with the management of other depts that make these requests to make sure they’re aware and to manage their expectations about last-minute turnaround time going forwards.

      2. just a small town girl*

        Saying all that out loud (or, well, typing it) is just giving me SO much trouble because dear god Michelle is insubordinate beyond belief. Like it’s so easy to overlook as it’s happening but she frequently flies in the face of direct instruction.

        I care for her as a person and I don’t think she’ll get fired because our boss is new to management, a nice person, doesn’t wanna be the one who fires people but…she probably does need to get some perspective about what could happen if she just…ignores her boss. That’s Not. What. You. Do!

    3. CL Cox*

      I think there is something you can do that might help your director have some perspective. And some data for if she does decide to have a Come to Jesus meeting with Michelle. Make a detailed list of all of Michelle’s work that was pending when you took over and what steps you took to resolve the problems. Send this list to your boss and Michelle, so that they know the status on everything. You need to also send your boss and email that details all of your work that you had to put on hold in order to clean up Michelle’s stuff. Your boss needs to know not only how behind Michelle was, but also how taking on her work impacted your productivity.

      1. just a small town girl*

        Good ideas! I’ve been keeping boss appraised of what I’ve been taking care of while Michelle is out but it probably would be beneficial to document exactly how much it’s been and how much of it was stuff pending when I stepped in.

        I’ve been taking lots of notes for Michelle so she knows the status of all of these things I’ve done, so it would be really easy to transcribe it into an email to include.

    4. Gumby*

      It sounds like she effectively *can* say no – isn’t that what she is saying to her manager every time she bends the rules? Sure, it isn’t to her face, but she’s still basically communicating “no, I will not do the thing that you told me to do.” That’s an… interesting… tactic to use at work. Maybe if you frame it that way, she will have an easier time saying no to people’s faces?

      1. valentine*

        isn’t that what she is saying to her manager every time she bends the rules?
        This is good. She is also saying that to everyone she said yes to, as soon as she says yes to a new request. It sounds like she only works on things until a new request comes in, then she takes time off and just a small town girl completes the work.

        Michelle is a broken stair. Your boss and you are inexplicably supporting her, not the department, at the cost of your reputation, clients, and, presumably, jobs. Michelle isn’t suited to the role and your boss is being a doormat about it. A handwritten note? Working around Michelle as though she’s a crappy boss?

        You don’t have to reveal that Michelle sucks, but don’t lie to your clients about why you were able to get their work done. (Is it even something you should do or is this more covering for Michelle?) Sit your boss down and tell her how quickly you got stuff done and how much time you’re wasting maneuvering around Michelle. I’d stop babysitting Michelle and possibly look to transfer because a boss like this isn’t going to support me.

  58. Sarah-tonin*

    hi! how soon after an interview can i ask for a follow up? i had an interview for a part-time academic librarian position on the 13th and they said they’d let me know either way by the next week. it’s now almost a week after that deadline, and i’m going to assume i didn’t get it. but i’m wondering if next monday i can send something to them via email (and what i should say). just, i’d like to know for sure that i don’t have it.

    i do know that the hiring process can take longer than anticipated, and i normally wouldn’t be this impatient, but the job i interviewed for is a temporary position through the middle of may. i’d like to work as much as possible until then (so if i got an offer today i wouldn’t be able to start until the middle of february because i have to give notice ar one of my jobs).

    1. fposte*

      I think you can say something next week. “Hi, I’m just checking in to see if you have an idea of the time frame on the hiring process for the Aerial Silks Librarian position.”

      If you don’t get a response or anything else for a couple of weeks, I’d move on. They might still pull themselves together, but I wouldn’t count on it.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        that’s what i thought, so maybe i’ll give them a little more time? were this not a temp position, i’d be a little more patient and not even be asking this question, but i don’t want to potentially only work for a couple months…..

  59. Conflicted*

    I’m pretty sure this is a ridiculous question and the answer is obvious, but I want be sure anyway.

    People in my company are hired in a temp-to-perm basis. They’re put under contract for a year, and after that, if their performance is good, they’re made into permanent employees. If not, then the contract is not extended. (Not US, So I’m not asking about legality and such).

    It’s nearing the end of my contract. I believe that I won’t be offered a permanent position. The job is not a good fit, and my performance is mediocre.

    My question: would it be misleading to say in my resume that this is a contract position?

    Strictly speaking it is. But I feel iffy because it kinda implied that the issue is on the company’s side (they only need temporary employee), instead of on my side (I’m not a good performer, hence contract not extended).

    And yeah, I know this is a weird question.

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      Resume: State it was a contract position. It was.

      Interview: “The position was not a good fit for me, and I decided to pursue other positions that would allow for greater opportunities for professional development.” This is true. I’m sure others here can tweak that statement a bit.

      The thing about contract employment is that the flexibility goes both ways. The company is under no obligation to hire you at the end of your contract, but you are also under no obligation to stay at the end of your contract.

      1. Conflicted*

        Thank you! That’s a good script. Do you think I should confirm this with HR, just to be safe?

        And even if they do extend the contract, I already made up my mind not to accept.

        1. blaise zamboni*

          I don’t think you need to confirm with HR. I imagine, even with the temp-to-perm culture, if someone is BAD at the job they’ll be cut loose early — is that true in your experience?

          Even if you haven’t been a star performer, if you’ve done adequate work you’ve fulfilled your part of the contract. It sounds like you just aren’t a good fit there. You’ve done nothing wrong and shouldn’t take on any worry or guilt about this, if you can help it. Try to learn what aspects of this role didn’t fit for you, and move forward into bigger and better things.

          Good luck!

          1. Conflicted*

            Thank you! Those are very kind words. You’ve hit the nail on the head. I do feel guilty and well, a bit like a failure. The job sounded like a good fit, but I’ve learnt the hard way that it’s not.

    2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Something like this happens not infrequently in my line of work (also not in the US). We usually have short term contracts for a specific job which are often extended, sometimes for quite a while if new work comes in. However, it is not unusual to have people either not be offered an extension (due to performance, personality conflicts, other miscellaneous factors) or decline to take it. But it’s still considered that a fixed term contract ended, not that the person was fired. So I think you’re fine to just say that your contract ended.

  60. yala*

    A question (or three) about asking for ADHD accommodations:

    I had disclosed that I was getting treatment for both ADHD and Chronic Anxiety, and spoke to an ADA Coordinator at my supervisor’s behest. At the time, we decided the current set-up of accommodations was sufficient (more things in writing/e-mail, and a weekly check-in meeting).
    So, a month or so back, I got a reprimand, in writing for being late to work, and too much “unscheduled leave” (sick days)

    1) In regards to the “late for work” thing–work starts at 7:30, and I usually make it in a few minutes late. Sometimes (rarely) ten minutes late, but I text if that’s the case, and it’s usually because something happened (needed to deice the windshield, etc). When I was first hired, the general rule was “just don’t get in at, like, 7:45 or something” and most departments still seem to go by those rules (I ran into two people just coming in as I was going back to my car for something today, and coworkers in other departments will often gentle tease me if they see me booking it to the office while they go at a more leisurely pace, so it seems like the hard and fast 7:30 rule is just our department). My old supervisor was much the same. My current supervisor had asked me before to text if I was going to be more than ten minutes late, and then later just changed it to: “be in at 7:30.”

    I really have difficulties in the morning. I do my best, but if I manage to haul myself out of bed for 6:30, it’s still good odds I’ll sit on the floor blinking and trying to boot up for a good ten minutes.

    I also stay later than the rest of my department. Officially, we close at 5, but ever since I worked here, the general rule has been everyone leaves at five til. Over the past year-ish, the rest of my department tends to leave (usually together), fifteen to twenty minutes early. I don’t know if there’s been a rule change or anything, and since no one has directly told me differently, I still stay at work until 4:55, sometimes until 5 if I’m trying to get to a good stopping point.

    Would it be reasonable to talk to the ADA Coordinator about an allowance for me to be a few minutes late (not exceeding ten minutes), so long as I stay the additional time? I really think the whole bad-at-mornings/time/executive-function thing is tied into ADHD, and the extra few minutes don’t actually interfere with the job itself (we’re not public facing in any way, and most folks here don’t really get going until closer to 8). I wouldn’t be deliberately late every day or anything, but it would be nice not to dread disciplinary action for running a few minutes late or having a bad morning.

    2) The “unscheduled leave” was all sick leave. In a few cases, colds, but in other cases, anxiety-related. I’m used to nights where I can’t sleep, but if I have more than two in a row, I’m really not fit for work or driving, and figured it would be better to stay home and knock myself out. I had asked my supervisor a few months at my annual review back if “excessive leave” was an issue, since folks in other departments said it came up in their annual reviews, and she said no. So I felt a little blindsided by this. I can’t schedule being sick, or having Bad Days. I don’t know if that’s worth bringing up at all (since sometimes it’s just being sick, and sometimes it’s actively related to a condition I have).

    The weird thing was, in the reprimand, it said I’d used so much sick leave that I’d had to take leave without pay. But I went over and checked my pay stubs, and it doesn’t seem like that’s happened at all in the past three years? (It did in 2016, because we had several family crises and long hospital stays, so I didn’t have enough annual leave left over for the mandatory holiday, but my current supervisor wasn’t even here for that). So I don’t really know. What’s “too much?” Am I going to get in trouble for taking two days off this week while battling a nasty cold?

    3) This one isn’t ADA related, but I was wondering if it was something I should bring up if I see the ADA Coordinator, in case she would know who, if anyone, I should speak to about it.

    The day before the holiday break, we had a staff party in our area where folks brought snacks and hung around. It’s open to anyone who happens to drop by. Some folks stay the whole time, some grab some snacks, say hello, then go back to their cubicles/offices.

    This year, I was the only person from my department there (it’s right by our cubicles), and I found out later that was because the rest of my department, supervisor included, had gone to a smaller “party” held in someone’s office, away from this one. If it was just the coworkers, eh, okay. But being deliberately excluded by my supervisor feels really unsettling, and it’s hardly the first time it’s happened. It really unnerves me that this keeps happening, because it sends a definite message. It’s not that I want anyone in trouble, or even spoken to, but I guess I would like HR to be aware that this is a Thing That Happens?

    Is that worth bringing up?

    (I hope any/all of this rambling made sense. I’m still kind of woozy from the cold)

    1. CL Cox*

      I can’t speak to the ADA accommodations, you need to discuss those with your coordinator. But for the anxiety/sick leave, you can file for intermittent FMLA for the anxiety. Any absences that fall under the approved FMLA cannot be counted against you for any absence management, PIP, performance review, or discipline programs.

      1. Save the Bees*

        Seconding the intermittent FMLA for anxiety. I used it last year and it made so much difference for me. Not just in my health but also my job performance.
        Talk to your doctor. They can put in the order for you.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I don’t have any advice about the ADA questions, but I just want to say that this sucks. You said that your supervisor specifically excludes you often? Does it relate to work or just in more social settings?

      If you feel like it would not create more retribution, I think you could go to your boss and ask specifically about the discrepancy with unpaid leave.

    3. zora*

      YES you should ask your ADA Coordinator about the first two!! I can’t guarantee that they would include them, but those are exactly the kinds of questions and specific examples they can help sort out! PLEASE talk to them asap!

      The pattern of the 3 things you mentioned does make me worry the supervisor has it out for you and is trying to push you out, so you should talk to some people to make sure your back is covered.

      As for the party thing, do you have any coworkers in your department that you are close enough to that you think they would be honest with you about how they perceived the party situation? Like whether you were deliberately left out or accidentally? And whether they have a sense that your supervisor is unhappy with your performance? I’m not sure about mentioning the party situation to HR, because it really depends on how they would react, and whether they take on those kinds of mediating roles in your company, or if they try to stay ‘neutral’ and would not do anything anyway.

      But on the other hand, it could be good to talk to the ADA Coordinator about, because it is one of those things that could be included as a pattern of retaliation if you were ever fired and decided to sue, so they would be the best person to see the potential liability concern there and figure out how to address it.

      I don’t know, I’m a little unsure about that last one, but the first two definitely that is what the ADA person is there for. And maybe after getting those figured out, you’ll get some better context about the other thing?

      Good luck!

    4. Cartographical*

      I don’t know if you’ll see this, but my ADHD medication takes 90-120 minutes to kick in — I’ve timed it and it matches with the pharmaceutical company’s numbers — and this can be a complicating factor. It’s not a solution for you, but for myself for early events I set my alarm 90 minutes before I have to be up and I put my meds out with some water, so I can take them and then go back to sleep. I bring it up because this is something that is worth mentioning when seeking accommodation.

      Having a dawn lamp that brings the light up does help as well, in general. It starts my brain waking up before my body does.

      Most of the solutions to not being able to get up in a timely fashion rely on executive function that we don’t generally have in place but they’re worth trying, like getting everything ready the night before. This is where a really strict routine will help you because you’ll be able to quite literally do it in your sleep after a while. You will want to practice it in your head, over and over, when you’re awake, and do a run-through at night when you lay things out. I will have a thermos full of coffee and a thermos full of overnight oatmeal by my bed so that my alarm goes off, I take my meds with coffee and eat right away. I showered the night before so I grab the baby wipes from the bedside table and wipe myself down, then add deodorant and moisturizer before I reach for my clothes that were laid out the night before. Ideally, I do all this before I go to the bathroom, even. If I do go to the bathroom, it’s there and right back to the bed so I don’t wander off. By the time I “get out of bed”, I have eaten, had coffee, taken my meds, cleaned up, and gotten dressed. If I’m exhausted, I’ll make the bed and lie back down until my next alarm goes off, if the pets allow it. If I’m not, I’ll do my journal (this time adds a buffer in case I didn’t get things together properly). At that point, I check the weather and nothing more (alerts should be on so you know if you need to factor the car into your time remaining) and brush my teeth, wash my face, fix my hair. Then I can double check my (paper) agenda — actually in this case just post-its stuck on the outside of it — and email alerts and I’m ready to get going whenever I need.

      If you are into hair and makeup, that’s something you need to set aside except for the minimum until you get good at getting up. Put it out there as a reward for mastering your mornings. That’s not to be punitive, it’s just something that is way too easy to turn into a hyperfocus timesink. Try not to use your phone or computer unless you have to. Use paper agendas and post-its, have an alert section on your phone to check so you only see the stuff that’s need to know first thing.

      Finally, get a sleep assessment. Please. You may have an offset circadian schedule that’s making this harder. My body’s natural sleep clock is 2am to 10am. This is normal for humans; if we all slept at the same time, we’d get eaten by bears before we worked out what to do with our thumbs. But your sleep clock may need adjusting or it may not be compatible with your job, — it’s worth finding out. Sleep/wake disorders are a disability in some cases and can impact your overall longevity. I hope you see this and good luck.

  61. MissGirl*

    Someone wrote in the comments a few months ago about a woman who approached them about a job opportunity that would end with the possibility of buying the business outright. It would require a move and I think it was pet related.

    There was a split of opinion from go for it to be very wary. I was curious how it ended up.

  62. Bart*

    Morale is terrible in my department. In the last three months two people have quit and two people (including me) have requested accommodation due to anxiety and stress. We are going to have a staff meeting next week to “brainstorm” ways to improve things (this is the third such meeting – no matter what we say the end result is akin to the old saw, “beatings will continue until morale improves”). My biggest problem is that my boss is terrified of our dept. head. She won’t let me put anything in writing – in fact she publicly calls me out in the few team meetings we have had for taking notes “in my little notebook.” Team meetings are done in secret so the dept head won’t know about them – we just walk around and knock on office doors and tell people to join us in 15 minutes. She says she will be supportive of me when we have accommodation check-ins with HR and she is supportive in private, but in group meetings she ridicules my ideas and generally belittles me. I am sure it sounds hard to believe but I don’t want to get her in trouble – at the same time I don’t think I am going to overcome my anxiety and be successful in my work while this atmosphere of secrecy and backstabbing continues. Should I try to work it out with her, just bring it up in the brainstorming meeting, go to HR? I am stumped.

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I’m sorry, you’re called out for taking notes in a work meeting? Unless you’re engaged in espionage or something completely illegal, that shouldn’t be a bad thing!

      I’d recommend job hunting because that’s a serious red flag. And clearly your manglement team isn’t going to work on fixing it.

    2. Avasarala*

      Protect yourself. Do not bother trying to work it out with her or bring it up to her. She is not on your side. By acting supportive in private and then berating you in public, she is trying to have it both ways–she can put you down and make you think she is on your side. She is not. If she was, she’d support you in public too.

      Why is she so afraid of the dept head?
      Why is her solution to try to do work in secret–this makes no sense and is ineffective and confusing.

      If you think HR will be supportive, you can report your boss bullying you and belittling you in front of others. They might investigate.
      But it sounds like there are major issues in that department and you should probably GTFO.

  63. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    CW Dieting

    Weight Watchers friendly snacks to keep in the office? I’m looking for some kind of zero point chip replacement, as there is only so much fruit I can eat during the day. I also want to be able to grab something to eat when one of my very generous coworkers brings in food to share (which is… constantly.) Shelf stable replacements, if possible!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Some things I have relied on in my office: 100-calorie packs of pretzels (3 pts), string cheese or babybels (1-3 pts, depending on type), protein powder that you mix with water turn in to a liquidy shake of sorts (1 pt).

      We have fresh fruit here too and I hear you on hitting a fruit limit! I try to at least switch up the type of fruit (apple which feels sugary/treat-like vs banana which feels more starchy and filling) so I don’t go crazy. Baby carrots are a nice change sometimes, too.

      Honestly sometimes I’ll just make a cup of coffee to be social and have something in my hands while others eat!

      1. Can I get a Wahoo?*

        Ooo string cheese/babybels is a good idea! I can easily keep those in the fridge. Carrots are good but I have the worst luck with bags going bad fast. Thanks!!

    2. CatCat*

      Not sure which WW plan you are on, but air-popped popcorn is zero on purple so you could pop some at home in the morning and bring it to work in a bag. Boom Chicka Pop is low point (2) for sea salt. WW also has some branded chips. The tortilla chips are 2 points and pretty good. (The salt and vinegar chips are also 2 points, but they are not good imo.)

      1. Can I get a Wahoo?*

        I’m on blue–just started, so I’m still figuring everything out. Thank you for the suggestions!!

    3. Lyudie*

      Badabean roasted fava beans! They are lower point than nuts and come in some good flavors (I haven’t tried any of the sweet ones but I really like the sweet sriracha flavor, they taste like Doritos. Roasted edamame is also pretty low point IIRC. I have never had them, but I have seen people say the corn Good Thins crackers are good and low point for a cracker. For sweet stuff, for a while I was eating fat-free greek yogurt with some sugar-free jam mixed in…tastes like fruit-on-the-bottom yogurt but zero points. Salsa is pretty much always going to be zero point (I’m sure someone does something weird like put sugar in it, but I’m sure you can find some that is zero point).

      Note that all of this is coming from the blue perspective (though I have just cancelled as I’ve been able to maintain for a while now without tracking!)

    4. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      No idea about weight watchers systems but how about raw celery? I read somewhere once that it’s supposed to have a similar effect to eating chips due to its flavour and a bit of sodium content as well as the crunch. I like it in any case. Also maybe dill pickles? I have yet to find a good equivalent in the UK but I used to eat them as a snack all the time.

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      Not sure if you’re asking about management books specifically, but I highly recommend Bruce Tulgan’s “The 27 Challenges Managers Face”. It’s literally what it sounds like, a case-by-case breakdown of very common scenarios. It’s well structured and can be read through or dipped in and out of like a reference book. Good luck!

    2. Uncivil Engineer*

      Radical Candor (by Kim Scott)

      I want to buy this book for every person in upper management in my department. Except the two that literally yell at people… they don’t need any more candor.

  65. Should I let this employee go?*

    I hired an employee who has been with me for four months for a 21 hour a week position. She has called out 5 times during this period. My gut says to cut my losses and find a replacement, but is that too harsh? It’s my first time managing. We already had separate conversations about my expectations for coming in sick (if you can’t work, you can’t work, but otherwise you should be here) and snow days (we follow what the state declares for non essential employees) because those were contributing issues to the absences.

    1. Should I let this employee go?*

      Also she is not a stellar employee, though she does have strengths. I was planning on coaching her on some opportunity areas however she called out for all of last week and now I’m wondering if it’s not worth it.

    2. lobsterbot*

      how is her work when she’s in? Is laziness/flakiness something you see in person as well? If not, it could just be bad luck. If there’s a probationary period beyond which firing gets harder, keep that in mind. If she’s flaky otherwise, I don’t think it’s too harsh to cut your losses, flaky people rarely get better spontaneously.

      1. Should I let this employee go?*

        She has her strengths but also opportunity areas. She is always on time and responsive, but these call outs are killing me because I really do need her here doing the work.

    3. Jedi Squirrel*

      She’s taken close to one day off per month. If your company offers ten PTO days for FT employees, she’s just a little over norms. I know sometimes people have a hard time adjusting to a new job that results in sickness. Your immune system needs time to adjust to the new set of germs it’s being exposed to.

      If the frequency is becoming less, that’s one thing. But if the frequency is becoming more, it may be time to cut your losses. Calling in sick for all of last week, though—can you request some sort of documentation to justify why she was gone?

      1. Should I let this employee go?*

        She is a part time employee, three days a week. Early on she used all her accrued PTO and had to take an unpaid day but more accrued. She sent a drs note (which I did not ask for) and I do believe she was sick, but I also need someone to be here to do the job and if she’s going to call out once a month for a 3 day a week job, well that’s more than her allotted leave and more leave than this job can accommodate.

          1. Should I let this employee go?*

            Dang haha, too true. But I guess I’m wondering if people think I’m off base? I guess it doesn’t matter what other people think but just curious! Posting has also helped me formulate my thoughts and get them into words, TBH.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              You’re not off base – you need someone who can reliably be in the office three days a week and for whatever reason, she doesn’t seem to be able to do that. It’s unfortunate, but you’re not running a charity. You need to cut her loose and go back to the drawing board for a new hire.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          You should literally say this to her:
          I need someone to be here to do the job and if you’re going to call out once a month for a 3 day a week job, that’s more than the allotted leave and more leave than this job can accommodate.

    4. MeowYorker*

      I can sympathize! It can be hard to tell where the line is between being an understanding manager and ensuring the business needs are met. I struggle with this, too.

      When you spoke with her about her absences, what did she say? Did she indicate that 5 days in 4 months is unusual for her and she expects to be out less going forward?

      1. MeowYorker*

        Oh wait, it’s 5 times in 4 months with at least one whole week out? That’s a lot, especially this early in her tenure, unless something serious is going on. You said the employee’s work isn’t stellar, too. I’d look for someone to replace her.

      2. Should I let this employee go?*

        When we discussed the last absence, she really stressed that she didn’t want me to think that because she missed work she was unreliable, and she just kind of focused on the circumstances that caused her to call out and her thought process on calling out (there was a forecast of potential winter weather that didn’t actually happen. I just listened and then shifted the conversation to expectations for winter weather & call outs). I think she will do the same when I talk with here about these next absences, that it wasn’t her fault, it was the circumstances. I do think I am going to talk to her, and maybe I can keep the focus on making sure she understands that the velocity of the absences is concerning and get affirmation from her that this is unusual for her? I asked references about reliability and was told she called out only once during her time working these (several year period) so I’m just not sure. I am just super conflicted.

        1. Kathenus*

          Yikes. While sick time is harder to evaluate in this case (how much is too much, etc.), calling in because of a potential weather forecast? That doesn’t even fit under my organization’s options for time off – we have vacation/holiday/personal holiday – all of which need advance approval so they meet the schedule (we require a certain level of coverage to operate), and sick time for personal or immediate family illness/dr. appts. Calling in for weather, especially per a forecast versus actual, would be unexcused.

          I’d have one very direct conversation that reliability is important in succeeding in this position, and let her know that she needs to meet this in order to be able to remain in this position. Then see if she can do so. If so, great. If not, then yes I’d let her go and hire someone who meets your needs.

          1. Should I let this employee go?*

            I know, originally I had not set expectations about weather because I really didn’t think they needed to be set (use your best judgement is the usual way things go), but obviously that was my bad. I think the forecast via the news channels made it sound like it would be bad, and then in the morning she let that forecast color her perception of the actual weather, which was not bad (not even snowing!) and also why I then had to set the standard re: state’s guidelines for non-essential personnel. She has anxiety, so I understand how that exacerbated things that morning, but also does not help me when I have to scramble for coverage.

        2. Mia 52*

          With the added detail that she called out for a possible winter weather thing that didn’t happen I would say she’s just unreliable. Who does that!?

          1. Should I let this employee go?*

            Lol you guys are killing me. I posted about the winter weather situation on a different forum and was absolutely crucified in the comment section about how I was asking my employee to risk her life for a non-essential job, etc. etc. I’m like guys, it was RAINING. I think it’s because I mentioned that the weather channel had posted winter weather advisory & a couple of schools (not even close to the majority in our area) did close or have early delays so it’s not like she was totally off base. But it’s a job as adults we usually do not go by the school system because those tend to be really conservative.

            1. Mia 52*

              LOL Well perhaps its were I live (midwest) but snow or rain would not be a reason to skip work! could vary regionally!? There was a question on here once that was like if snow is in the forecast I take PTO and I was jus t like hmm…..wouldn’t fly around here!

              1. valentine*

                I don’t understand why you didn’t fire her when she violated the policy the second or third time? This has come up here before and employers sound helpless. Employees simply call out. What? You’re skipping the bit where you order her in because there’s no snow or you say, no, she needs to come in even though she’s sick because she’s used up all her leave. Where’s the “There has to be y feet of snow or ice on the ground”? Where’s the x times = termination?

                1. Should I let this employee go?*

                  I am going to have a conversation with her on Monday about how she only has three days left until the end of the year, and that using unpaid leave is not an option and will lead to termination.

    5. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I worked at a job like this, I’m shocked she hasn’t quit like I did. They had a “no absence allowed for any reason” policy, so everyone came to work sick. I think I was sick for 75 of my first 90 days and then quit. I had bronchitis. Then strep. Then some other respiratory thing. Then a cold.

      Being sick was a huge imposition on my personal time, too: I was living off microwave meals and paper plates because I was too sick to wash dishes. NOPE.

      1. Should I let this employee go?*

        I’m sorry that sounds awful :( It is just she and I and one other person at this company and she is the only one getting sick, so she is not in a cesspool of germs from people who can’t stay home due to lack of PTO if that’s what you’re suggesting. I definitely feel bad she keeps getting sick but also if she gets sick this much maybe she needs a job that is less impacted by coverage issues?

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          This – you can empathize with her illness, and it can even be understandable, but if you need coverage and she’s not there to provide it, why is she still on the payroll? She needs a full time salaried position where her employer is more likely to need butts in seat attendance.

  66. CatCat*

    Does anyone else work something like a 9/8/80 schedule? If so, I have a question: What does your employer do if your regular day off falls on a holiday?

    Ex-Job would give you 8 hours of holiday leave to use whenever. Current Job, for exempt employees, is just “too bad, so sad” and you get no holiday credit/can’t make the day up. I think this is super bizarro of Current Job and was wondering what other folks’ employers do.

    1. yala*

      We don’t do it quite like that, but Fridays are half days, and we work 8.75 for the other four. We also basically have a Mandatory Holiday for two weeks during Christmas/New Years, and only SOME of those days are Holiday leave. For the rest, we’re charged from the annual leave.

      So when the holiday itself falls on a Friday, we’re kind of boned, because we’re charged annual leave for the 8.75 hour days, but only get the 5 hours for Friday in holiday leave.

      It was an absolute pill last year, because it amounted to 50+ hours being charged. This year, because the holiday was in the middle of the week, we were charged less than 40 hours since some of the annual leave days were Fridays.

      It’s…weird.

    2. Just a PM*

      (I’m a fed) We shift our day off to either the immediate day before or the day after — I think they call it “in lieu of.” For example, if my regular day off is Monday but the Monday is a holiday, then I get Tuesday off as my “in lieu of” regular day off.

    3. CheeryO*

      Nah, that’s super weird. We do a 9/75 schedule here, and if your day off falls on a holiday, you get a day of holiday credit that’s functionally the same as a vacation day but never expires.

    4. Uncivil Engineer*

      We get paid for the holiday and get our regular paycheck. So we get paid as if we worked our regular 80 hours + get paid the 8 (or 9) hours for the holiday. We’re paid straight-time (not overtime) for the holiday.

    6. Zephy*

      My department works 5x8s and we’re all hourly, but we have a rotating Saturday shift – each of us works roughly one Saturday per month, and during the week that your Saturday falls in, you’re off the preceding Monday (so you work Tue-Sat that week). In cases when that Monday has been a holiday, the person takes a different day off during the week – usually Tuesday, to keep it simple.

      I’m trying to remember how OldJob handled it, but I was also part-time 28 hours a week, Tuesday and Wednesday were my regular days off, and basically all the paid holidays except Christmas and New Year’s were Mondays, so it never really became a problem for me.

    7. Junimo the Hutt*

      I’m 10/80, every other Friday off. If our day off falls on a holiday, we don’t get the holiday pay. There’s a pool of holiday hours that each of the four schedules get, and you earn those days back either as a payout if you leave or at time off at the end of the year (we shut down between Christmas and New Years, and each of the schedules starts on a different day). It worked out really well for me last year because holidays kept happening on my off-Friday and therefore I got nearly two weeks off at the end of the year.

    8. Policy Wonk*

      I had an employee whose regular day off was Monday. Of course most federal holidays are on Mondays, and if it’s not your day to work, you don’t work. The employee was out of luck – there is no such thing as a compensatory holiday (no matter how many different ways you come up with to ask for one!) We finally succeeded in switching the employee to a different day off.

    9. Two Dog Night*

      My husband is on a 9/80 schedule, and if a holiday falls on his Friday off, he gets the Thursday as the holiday. This means some years he has a lot of four-day weekends–I’m very jealous!

      If you’re salaried, I think your current employer isn’t being fair. The way it’s set up, assuming not everyone has the same day off, there will always be some employees who end up working more hours in a year than other employees. It would probably balance out over the course of several years, but I don’t think it’s a good system.

  67. Second thoughts and spinning*

    Earlier this week, I found out that my team is interviewing an acquaintance. The acquaintance was in several of my grad school classes, met with me and was very helpful when I first moved to a new city, and is now in a professional development group with me. I emailed them offering to talk about the position. My coworkers and I were told to encourage people in our networks to apply. However, now I am wondering if I overstepped because of the timing: post-application, pre-interview. I think my acquaintance is really qualified and doesn’t need help from me. I was just so excited that they were applying. But I worry that emailing might come across as unethical, an unwanted intrusion, or trying to circumvent the hiring process. Thoughts? Recommendations on what to do now?

    1. Lyudie*

      Personally, I don’t think it’s a problem. I might even go to the folks doing the interviewing and mention you heard this person is being considered and offer to provide input. I once found out a former coworker was interviewing where I was working, and the people interviewing were very interested to hear my thoughts on her (she got the job and ended up staying longer than I did, haha).

    2. Kathenus*

      I don’t think it sounds like it’s a problem. The one thing you might want to do is be clear with your acquaintance that you are not the hiring manager and that you are simply offering to give them some information on the position/organization/culture. Unethical would be if you knew the interview questions and shared them, or gave them information into current projects that might give them an undue leg up in the interview, etc. But sharing information as an acquaintance on a job they applied for, to me, doesn’t sound like a problem at all.

  68. Orange Crushed*

    Are you supposed to know when someone you work with is out? I work with Fergus, who was promoted to Assistant Manager. Whenever he is out, no one ever says anything. He never tells me when he is out, yet he’ll give me a hard time when I’m out or leave early.

    1. CheeryO*

      Yeah, that seems like a pretty basic expectation! We try to keep our Outlook calendars up-to-date, and we use a shared sign-out board. It’s obnoxious to have to ask around to try to figure out where someone is, regardless of their level of seniority or flexibility.

    2. ..Kat..*

      The question is, does your not knowing Fergus is out adversely affect your ability to do your job? If so, then you need to know when he is out.

  69. em_eye*

    Y’all, I need help.

    I started a job a couple months ago where almost everyone works remotely, so a lot of work is done on Google Docs. During my first day onboarding, my boss was like, “By the way…you should know that our GSuite defaults to everyone’s docs being visible to the whole organization. Obviously you can change the settings for each individual doc.”

    Since then, I’ve been diligent about changing the privacy settings on most of my docs so they’re only visible to me unless I think they’ll be relevant to someone else. But A LOT of the people I work with apparently don’t do this, because once I searched my name to quickly find something that was shared with me and was shocked by just how much I could see. The agendas for one-on-one meetings between my boss and her boss, and his boss, and between my department head and the executive director? Yup, they’re all there. Including meetings where they talk ABOUT ME. The resumes of every single person whose ever applied to a job here, whether or not they got hired? I can see that. The executive director’s personal to-do list, which includes everything from “sugaring” to “email [super cool celebrity friend] about fundraising campaign”? It pops up when I search for something, tempting me with its delicious forbidden knowledge.

    I know it’s in my best interest not to look at documents that aren’t relevant to me, keep my head down, and focus on my work. But the docs are out there, haunting me, and they just keep coming, like a waterfall. It’s so hard to resist the urge to read them and act on the information I find in some way. People who have this willpower thing, how am I ever going to deal with this?

    1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      Brag Post: 70 hours – $10,000

      Since I chose to leave my last position, I’ve been pro bono consulting through CatchaFire and Taproot working with non-profits on projects virtually from home. I’m working on (5) projects of various types and finally hit the $10,000 mark meaning my assistance has saved non-profits $10k which they can redirect these dollars to their programs and clients or themselves.

      This has been a great way to sabbatical and reflect on my career and what I want to do next. It makes me feel wanted (although a non-profit that when silent on me and I let them go) and valued for my skills not because I’m flexible enough to move my office – a 3rd time – and assume the work of three coworkers because they’ve fled the organization.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        SORRY I have no idea how this got here!!! Something kooky with the system…. Allison?!

    2. Bananatiel*

      I’m commenting on this mostly because I’d like to come back later and see if anyone has any advice on this. I don’t have this problem with google docs but culturally we are expected to share our google calendar with the entire organization which poses an issue for the same reason (people put full doctor’s appointment details on them, date night details, etc). And with GCal it’s almost worse because once I see it, I see it. And I have the issue where I will sometimes read things, think that the person told me about it in person, and I’ll casually inquire how the concert they went to that weekend was and get the “… did I tell you about that?” look.

      1. em_eye*

        Wow, I’ve worked in a lot of places where Google Calendars were public (or easy to find, if they weren’t) but I’ve always put “busy” or “out of office” or “personal appointment” for stuff like that. It’s bizarre to me that someone would put social plans that don’t fall during the work day on their work calendar.

    3. Kathenus*

      I don’t use Google Docs but you may want to find out if others can see who has read a document. If so, that should help with your willpower – evaluate if your boss, grandboss, etc. saw that you accessed a document that didn’t directly apply to your work would it be an issue? So just imagine getting called into their office and being asked why you read that document, that would be enough to keep me away from the temptation.

      1. em_eye*

        I did recently learn that Google Docs added a way to see who’s viewed your document a few months ago. I don’t think a lot of people know this, but my god, SHARE TO SAVE A LIFE. (You click that spiky arrow thing in the top right corner.)

        It kind of sucks though because people use really similar naming conventions so I might be searching for “February ops tracker” where I’m supposed to put my order for staples and what I click on is “Ops workbook” where the ops director and her team share their comments about people they’re interviewing, for example.

    4. KMK*

      Does your company have a Chief Information Security Officer? It would be their job to set policies. This setup is terrible, as you’ve observed. I would try and talk with that person informally and keep locking your own things down.

      1. em_eye*

        No, we’re too small for that to be a dedicated position. I think we probably have an outside contractor for that but I’d have no idea how to get in touch with such a person.

        I think it’s deliberate as some kind of nod to transparency based on the matter-of-fact way it was told to me when I started. I think people know to lock down anything truly confidential, it’s not like I’ve ever come across pay stubs or a PIP or anything like that. It’s just distracting and I don’t trust myself not to take advantage of it.

        1. Avasarala*

          I understand the temptation! I still think you should raise the issue because people should be able to take notes and have those conversations without worrying about people reading them. HR, payroll, accounting, but even higher-level things like “should we accept this client who will bring in $$ but is problematic” and maybe the receptionist doesn’t need to see the higher-ups way the pros and cons!

  70. urban teacher*

    I am a special education teacher trying to get a job in higher education as a staff member. I have a MPA and have volunteered with a youth program from the beginning to its current 6 million dollar budget. I have applied to advisor jobs, disability coordinator jobs, program coordinator jobs and have gotten no response except rejection letters. Those in higher education, any pointers for having my resume looked at? Or student service jobs I should try for that may not need higher education experience? Does the size of the school matter?

    1. blackcat*

      Higher ed can be notoriously difficult to get into. Anyway you can find and acquaintance of a friend (or friend of an acquaintance) who would be willing to talk to you? Have you tried your alma mater?

    2. Catwoman*

      If your alma mater is local, that can be helpful. Lots of higher ed institutions like hiring their alumni.

      If that doesn’t work, try community colleges and smaller institutions first. The bigger fish get bigger application pools and generally prefer people with higher ed experience already. Size definitely matters here.

      Personal connections are also very important in higher ed. If you’re a strong candidate, it can get you fast-tracked to an interview. If you don’t already know anyone, look for volunteer opportunities. Maybe a university’s College of Education runs some outreach programs that could use a special ed teacher as a volunteer.

      Another thing about higher ed is that YOUR education matters. Having an education degree means that you are more attractive to Colleges of Education because you understand the discipline. You would be more likely to get a job as a student advisor in a College of Education than in a central office or College of Engineering or Fine Arts.

    3. Bananatiel*

      Something my sister learned recently: it pays to look at the linkedin resumes of fellow staff members in the department you’re applying to in order to see if it’s worthwhile. She quickly learned some places put things like “PhD optional” when it really wasn’t– EVERYONE had one. Other places actually like and seemed to prefer hiring people with “real world/outside world” experience in industries other than higher ed.”

      I also like Catwoman’s advice!

    4. Senor Montoya*

      I’m chairing a search right now in a similar area. For many of these jobs, it is extremely hard to get past the first cut if you do not have experience in higher ed and if you do not have experience in the actual field or one very similar to it. That doesn’t mean you would be bad at the job — I see resumes and think, that person has such an interesting background and I wish we could bring them in! But applicants have to meet the minimum requirements, which often includes “X years of experience in Main Function of Job” or “Experience working with undergraduates”. No matter how transferable your skills, you will not get past that bar. Even if that bar weren’t there, you’d still have a hard time making the first cut, because there are a lot of people who have plenty of applicable experience. We’re not hurting for applications, we can be choosy.

      More admin and student service type jobs — you’ll have a better chance.

      Do you know anyone working in higher ed in the kinds of positions you’re interested in? If so, see if they can look at your letter and resume, and if they can suggest ways for you to get the kind of experience you’d need to get these jobs.

  71. Marcy Marketer*

    Maybe you can emphasize that you don’t have any influence over higher but you were just so excited to hear they were applying that you wanted to reach out and reconnect? You can share what you know about the role and the team, but just keep emphasizing that you don’t have insight to the hiring process.

  72. Allie*

    I started my current job almost a year ago as a staff person after leaving a very similar company as supervisor with about 5 years’ experience. I took the new job as a staff person, it’s a larger company, the salary is about the same with less benefits but it’s a 10 minute commute which is really nice especially since I have a small child now. I came in thinking that I would prove myself and would quickly be bumped to Senior Staff with a salary increase. The person who was the senior in my department left the company a few months ago. She was always complaining about her workload but since she left, I took over many of her tasks. There was one particular tasks that the manager and supervisor were saying would be extremely difficult for them to do while being short staffed. But I took some time while to figure out their system and figured out how to complete this task on my own. So when my 6 month review came around, I was pretty annoyed by them saying “meets expectations”. When I asked what could I do to get “exceed expectations”, I was told it would be if I did something on a special project. I asked if I could be considered for the Senior position, they said they were having trouble finding a good candidate and that they would discuss with the director. I have no idea if they discussed it but in the end, they found someone they liked well enough and hired her at the Senior role. She seems like she can do the job but I don’t believe she is stronger than I am at the role. I’ve gotten along very well with her and have been helping her get up to speed but she seems to be a little slow and there are a lot of things she does not have any experience with so it’s a steeper learning curve for her. She said I’m a good teacher and asked me why I hadn’t applied for the Senior position when the last person left. I told her that I did ask and they apparently made a different decision without much of an explanation. My supervisor approached me recently and said that she would like to see me to move up eventually but I need to improve on my speed which I found very strange. While we were short-staffed, I delivered all deliverables as requested and completed additional tasks and implemented new processes at the same time. She also said something about being more open to people. I am not very outgoing I believe I interact with people professionally and make small talk occasionally. I think they are full of it and I’m really annoyed about it even though I’m doing my best to not show it. I would like to approach my supervisor and the manager about my compensation. My review was a few months ago but my one year anniversary is coming up. What is a good way to bring it up? Were it not for my family situation and the convenience of this job at the moment, I would probably be job hunting. Complicating things is I recently revealed that I was expecting and would be going on maternity leave in about 6 months. Is there a way to bring this up now?

    1. CL Cox*

      If I had to guess, I’d say you were not hiding your feelings as well as you think you are. I also think that expecting to move up to a senior role after only six months at a new company might be a little ambitious.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Have you detailed all you have accomplished? Including the Senior Position tasks/accomplishments from when the Senior Position person was gone? If not, please document this and give it to your manager.

      I hope that this helps. Good luck.

  73. Jedi Squirrel*

    How many positions on a resume is too many?

    Specifically, I’m looking at a resume with seven positions over the span of twelve years. Would that raise your eyebrows? (It did mine.) I know it’s a tight hiring market, but I don’t want to hire someone who’s going to be here for a couple of years and then rabbit. Is it even worth interviewing this person? What questions would you ask?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This seems…normal to me? Are there gaps between the jobs or do they appear to have been steadily employed?

      I don’t think it’s unusual for the younger population of our workforce to only stay for 18 months at any given job. A lot of people advance faster and better by leaving an organization versus staying where they are. I personally am on my 7th job since 2008. I grew tremendously at each role and each new position was a step up in my career.

      I think it’s worth asking why that person left each position, but no, I wouldn’t rule them out if their skills align with what you’re looking for.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Sometimes it takes a while to find a job with the right fit. If they otherwise look good, then I would interview them and ask about all the jobs.

    3. merp*

      I mean, I’m young and not an expert, but this doesn’t seem like a big thing to me. Like AndersonDarling says, it can take a minute to find a place you want to stay. If it seems like they have good experience and you want to interview them based on that, you can ask them about it instead of just assuming it’s a huge red flag. Maybe they have a good explanation, but you won’t know if you write them off based on it now.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’d need to know the position.

      I see this in customer service and labor roles and don’t even blink and eye.

      If you’re hiring an accountant or above middle management….,gurl no thanks. Some positions have a lot of turnover, some do not.

      Did you look at the location? Have they moved? [I see that mostly with people who have moved, which makes total sense!] But if they’re all in your city, then I’d look into the businesses as well. Have any of them closed? Have they got a track record for being awful? [Like I see a lot of CSR folks with a lot of call centers and mega corps that I know are burning their butts out…so again, don’t worry about it much, etc.]

      Lots of stuff to think about here, it would make me do research and ask questions but I wouldn’t assume the worst! [I always assume the best about everyone until I’ve at least spoken to them. If you talk to them in a phone interview sometimes you can get that idea of why they didn’t last long…]

    5. CheeryO*

      You might have to think about whether your expectations are realistic. A ton of people don’t want to stay in any job for more than 2-3 years, unless the pay/benefits are really stellar or there’s great opportunity for advancement.

      I’m in state government, where long tenures are more the norm. We look for local candidates (sorry, I know no one wants to hear that) and ask fairly typical questions: why are you interested in the position, where do you see yourself in five years, etc. People usually stick around for the benefits as long as they have roots in the area.

    6. Bananatiel*

      Not sure if the manager in my previous position handled the question well but I sat in on a phone interview for a position with her once and the applicant had literally worked at seven places in seven years– with the added element that most of those places were in completely different states, too. I wish I could remember her exact phrasing but she basically directly asked about a couple of the transitions between jobs in particular (big coastal moves after working at a place for <1 year) and his response ended up being enough of a red flag (he more or less didn't address the fast job-switching at all) that we did take him out of the pool because we had a similar concern that we really did not want someone in a new role for only a year.

      At the time I was glad we'd interview and asked, because we asked someone else about a position where they'd only been there for like 8 months and it turned out they had a specific reason for the job and the move related to family that we felt was satisfactory. So it seems to me some people are very aware of their own job-hopping and are prepared to talk about it, others honestly don't see it apparently which can be an issue for some positions.

    7. CL Cox*

      I would look at whether they were lateral moves or if there was a pattern of steadily moving up, even if incrementally.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. I’ve had nine different job titles in almost 10 years at five companies – I’ve been officially promoted twice (unofficially once) and have moved up almost every time (my last position was a lateral move – I got a better title, but not that much higher pay than my old position in a different industry). My resume reflects my achievements, and I’ve had no problem getting interviews and job offers. If my current employers had tossed my resume because of this, they would have missed out on someone that has played a large role in revamping their dated sales process.

    8. corporate engineering layoff woo*

      It might be valuable to include a “why did you leave X last positions” question in the initial application. I’ve encountered a few of those applying directly and it’s common for recruiters to ask about it while working with you. And it all depends. A couple each geographic moves, layoffs, and finding an opportunity with increased pay would make about 7 positions. Sure would be nice to have life be so easy as to have a short list of employers over 12 years…

    9. em_eye*

      I agree with others that this is pretty normal and not a red flag.

      But if you really do need someone to stay longer than two years, I think this is a clear sign that this one probably won’t, unless you have access to other information (like they’re making a career change from a field with a lot of turnover, they just had a kid and are looking to put down roots, your company has a lot more advancement potential than the other places they’ve worked, etc).

    10. irene adler*

      I think it’s worth a phone interview where you can ask them what they are looking for in the position they applied to.

      Could it be a number of circumstances caused this person to switch jobs so frequently? Say, one or two toxic jobs, a military family (you didn’t indicate if the jobs are all in one city or multiple locations), throw in a little immaturity to explain the first couple of job changes, maybe they moved to a new location to take care of family as well. And perhaps they moved while going to school to enroll in a specific program (or their spouse did).

      You can get them talking about their job history and see if it sounds like ‘outside forces’ were at work (and they are now interested in something more steady) or if they are viewing this position as another short-term gig.

    11. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I assume this is 7 positions with different companies? Where I am now, I had 3 positions in my first 4 years, but the title changes were because I was promoted internally. I would like to think that wouldn’t have been a red flag, had I been job searching.

    12. KMK*

      It’s normal, and I wouldn’t consider it a red flag unless they went from a senior position down to a junior position.

      My reasoning: a lot of companies do not give decent raises if they don’t have to. Even if there’s a cost of living adjustment, it doens’t always keep up with the CPI. Oftentimes the only way to make more money is to change not just jobs, but companies.

      Going from management to individual contributor isn’t a red flag. Some folks just aren’t cut out for managing. Dropping down one level of seniority in title isn’t a big deal to me–titles get defined differently at different companies.

  74. Un Peu Dépaysé*

    I’m a French teacher here in the States, and my region’s French Embassy is sponsoring a few American French teachers this summer for a summer continuing education seminar in France. The application asks for a CV and <> en Français (one page), which I’m assuming would be something like a cover letter that also includes something about how such a program would benefit my students here and just your basic cover letter stuff about why I specifically would be a great beneficiary of this grant, etc. Employees of the French government/embassy will be making the decision, so it’ll be for a French audience.

    I’ve written this sort of thing in English for American audiences, and I’ve had a French CV on file for just this sort of thing since grad school. But knowing how different academic writing style is between French and American cultures, I’m not really sure what this should look like. I know that it probably wouldn’t disqualify me if I just did it in the usual American style that I’ve been taught since they’re looking for American teachers, but it’s competitive, and I know it’s always a good idea to write these things with your audience in mind.

    Does anyone have experience with this in France? Anyone have an example of what one of these letters should look like? Any specific “don’ts” For this kind of writing in France that might be surprising to us Yanks?

    1. Alice*

      Soooooooo super formal. I mean, you probably know that already. Sometimes big bilingual dictionaries have a set of pages in the middle which have examples of business letters, letters to the government, instructions about how to address envelopes, etc. — can you borrow format and some formal circumlocutions from that?
      Good luck!
      PS — was there supposed to be a French word in the brackets in your post? It’s not showing up for me.

      1. Un Peu Dépaysé*

        Ah, thanks! The brackets were supposed to be around “une lettre de motivation.”

        That’s helpful though, thanks!

  75. Bridget*

    I just started a new job and so far it’s been terrific, and my co-workers are great to work with. I’m lucky to have the help of 2 hard-working assistants, part of whose job it is to put together client files for me and several other co-workers. On Monday they were complaining about how long it takes to go into the program and individually select each document to print, and how they wished the software program had some way to print them all at the same time. This morning I had to go into the program to look for a document and out of curiosity, I looked to see if there was a way to print all the documents in this particular file at the same time. There was: Control + select all the documents + Print. I hesitate to take this to the assistants because: I’m about 30 years younger than them; they’ve each been working with this program for 2+ years while I’m wrapping up my 2nd week; and the solution I found is pretty basic. I’m worried that in combination, all these factors might cause the assistants to feel insulted/defensive if I tell them how to do something they do on a weekly basis, but isn’t even a part of my job duties. But it would make their jobs a lot easier, because they say (and I agree!) that the process is so time-consuming and tedious now. Am I overthinking this? (I think I am…)

    1. PJM*

      Yes, you are way overthinking this. if it was me, I would want to know about something that would make my life easier. They will be grateful. Just tell them you discovered this great short cut you thought they’d like to know, and obviously not in a condescending tone. HOW you tell them makes all the difference.

    2. Elizabeth Proctor*

      You could say something like, I asked someone about printing all the documents and they showed me this trick. It’s a lie, but then you don’t appear to be knowing more than the person about their job…

      1. Easily Amused*

        I’m sorry but I don’t think this is good advice especially if OP is a woman. It smacks of downplaying his/her own abilities. Why lie about something so trivial? It’s possible that the assistants have tried the feature and it doesn’t work the way they need it to or something so I would just say, “I was in the program the other day and noticed this. Would that do what you need it to?”

    3. Kathenus*

      Similar to Elizabeth Proctor’s advice but with a different spin. You could say that hearing their conversation about the printing inspired you to look into some options to make it easier, and that you found out that you can do XX procedure to help with the issue. And add something like a ‘thanks for bringing up the topic, I’ve struggled with this in the past too but your conversation was a great catalyst for looking into it and the solution you helped inspire will really be beneficial to me too’.

    4. I think you're overthinking*

      First, ops-check the “print all” feature to make sure it’s an option (it may not work for some reason?). Second, mention it casually, as soon as you can. Like, blah blah blah, oh btw, I was in our database the other day and noticed the “print all” feature. Weren’t you all talking about that?

    5. Lisa M*

      Tell them – I’d be really pleased to know this -and I think you are over thinking -but I’m like that ha ha

    6. Senor Montoya*

      Overthinking. I’d do something like this:
      Guys! I was poking around in Program and I discovered this cool thing! You can print all the documents at once and it’s super easy!

      Word it to sound like you. Really, only if you think they’ll feel bad about not knowing.

    7. Blarg*

      I called my coworker today and said “I’m about to change your life” cause I’d figured out how to add access we thought had to be granted from on high. She’s been there for years. I’m on week 3. Granted, she’s younger than me. But I think when new people start it’s expected they will find gems (and issues) cause you use things in different ways. She was delighted and did a bit of a forehead slap.

  76. quirkypants*

    What are your best tips for hiring for soft skills? I’ve recently hired one employee who has a lot of trouble dealing with changing priorities or new projects she wasn’t expecting (both of which are common in our sector AND her role). She also lost her temper when we asked her to join in a new project that had already started and was angry she hadn’t been included earlier.

    I also hired someone else for a role that requires some strategy and some hands on doing but he doesn’t seem want to be bothered with any of the doing and resents it (even I, at a senior level have a fair amount of “doing” in so this isn’t unique to this employee).

    Both my boss and I thought both of these employees would work out so I can’t figure out what went wrong.

    I’m looking for people who are smart, will come with new ideas, are willing to roll up their sleeves and can roll with things. We pay within a competitive salary range and are clear about these expectations and the reality of the role in interviewing.

    What has worked well for you? What warning signs do you look for? Any magic questions?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Are you asking behavioral questions that get at those essential skills in your interviews? I ask questions about a time they handled competing priorities, had to implement a project that someone else conceived of, etc, and then ask A LOT of probing follow up questions until I get a sense of how they handle the kinds of stressors I expect they’d face in the role.

      1. quirkypants*

        I am asking behavioural questions but perhaps I’m not probing enough afterwards.

        I need to give that some more thought to probing better!

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          I have always found figuring out the correct (and enough) probing questions challenging, but what helps me the most is clearly articulating what the key skills are I’m assessing for (and what that looks like in practice, not just an abstract idea like “flexibility”); that way, I can mentally compare what they’ve already said to my rubric and figure out if I have enough information.

    2. Kathenus*

      We’ve had similar things in my department around things like flexibility and dealing with new things. It wasn’t always easy to fix retroactively, but we’ve used the information to really be clear in both the job postings and interviews in the future to highlight the areas that have caused conflict in the past.

    3. irene adler*

      As others have said, the probing follow-up questions can really flesh out the response so that you and candidate have the same understanding about “flexibility” or “hands-on”.

      My title is supervisor. The jobs I interview for are lab jobs. And every time, the interviewer expresses concerns that “this is a hands-on job” and it’s a step down in title. I’ve asked them to elaborate. Seems that “supervisor” means “parked in an office directing others to do the work”. And stepping down in title is a difficult concept for them to fathom. I am 100% hands on now and I don’t care about titles (I don’t even have reports to delegate to!). Just want a job at a stable company.

      My point: don’t make assumptions regarding people’s understanding of the job requirements-or your ability to correctly convey them. Have them tell you what “hands on” means and to what degree they have had to work under changing priorities. I suspect your “hands on” avoidant person got by because there was a difference in understanding as to what extent the “hands on” aspect meant. Many folks fancy themselves able to handle changing priorities, but never really had to work under such circumstances. Or at least not for very long (try working at a start-up. Changing priorities is a whole ‘nother thing! Something folks who work at the big companies I interviewed at could not grasp.).

    4. NicoleK*

      Hiring is often a crapshoot. You can ask about soft skills and technical skills and still end up with a dud. My replacement was giving me attitude when I tried to explain why something had to be correct. Also while she seems to have the technical aptitude, her attention to detail isn’t as great as she thinks.

      I think the key is to ask behavioral question and to follow up with additional questions about the situation the candidate gives.

  77. JustaTech*

    Tiny Good Things At Work!

    What’s really tiny but good thing that happened at your work recently?

    For me, they upgraded the paper towels in the bathroom to ones that don’t dissolve the moment you touch them with wet hands. This is super mundane and minor, but it makes me very happy!

    2. merp*

      My boss, who’s out of the office, had warm cookies delivered to us today, right when my energy was failing me in the middle of the morning. :)

    3. BlueWolf*

      They added (free) feminine hygiene products in all the bathrooms a few months back. It was useful recently when I had run out and hadn’t yet had time to get to the drug store to get more.

    4. Sled dog mana*

      My new job stocks real facial tissue (Kleenex) in full size boxes. No more using 8 to keep from blowing through them during cold season

    5. Bananatiel*

      I had the pleasant surprise that one of the speakers at an all-day work “retreat” was actually incredibly engaging for once! Hopefully, I will dread the next retreat less because of that.

    6. Not into hot caffeine*

      They started including Apple Cider and Wassal in the Hot drinks section, not just coffee and tea, so now that is a hot drink that I like =)

    7. Diahann Carroll*

      My manager said during a call with a C-level executive that he was glad that I’m getting actively involved in another team’s marketing initiative because he respects my opinions on these things and thinks I will help them to pull off a great campaign. Then he suggested I work with the exec on a pet project the exec has that currently aligns with something I’m already working on for sales – he’s always complimentary, but it was just really nice to hear again especially with the new C-level exec as a witness. I feel like the more he sings my praises throughout the company, the more options I’ll have to learn and grow here – I won’t be stuck on my current team forever if I don’t want to be.

  78. blackcat*

    When do you give notice when you *know* you’ll be leaving, but haven’t seen anyone give extended notice at your company?

    I just landed a sweet, tenure track academic job. Partner is the trailing spouse. We know he’ll be leaving in June. On some level, he wants to let people know with a month or two notice, to make sure he doesn’t end up not being able to transition stuff. On the other hand, he’s never seen anyone–even very senior people–give more than 2 weeks notice. He does a lot of pretty complex data analytics, so transitioning projects can be tricky. Since he’s never seen anyone give longer notice, he doesn’t know if they’d fire him after 2 weeks. He’s also worried about being taken off interesting projects before he has to be.

    WWYD?

    2. Catwoman*

      Is there any possibility that your husband would want to continue his job working remotely (and the company would allow it)? That’s one case where it’s worth bringing up early.

      If not, have your husband double check HR policies to make sure he’s not obligated to anything more than 2 weeks and stick to that. My job is one pay period, which can be either a month or 2 weeks depending on your role.

      1. blackcat*

        No dice on remote work because it’s an international move and that is very much not allowed. Plus, the university will hire him to get me, so he will have a job after the move. Everyone else he’s known who quit gave 2 weeks, so that appears to be the standard for HR purposes.

    3. Salsa Your Face*

      I would say he should give the standard two weeks. Is there anything preventing him from starting transition documentation earlier, though?

      1. blackcat*

        I think his concern is just not having time. He’s dealing with a lot right now plus the logistics of moving (doing work on the house before selling, etc) means there just aren’t enough hours in the day.

  79. Amber Rose*

    Today in Spooky Tales of The Workplace: The Ghost Line *eerie music plays*

    Imagine if you will, a phone system with four lines. This phone system was bought, entirely, for about $400 10 years ago from an auction after the company that makes it went out of business. Needless to say, there is no support or replacement parts or any means of troubleshooting this mess. When a call comes in, the light corresponding to the line the call is on flashes green, and then holds red while the line is occupied.

    For the last year, however, a new phenomenon: a call which comes in on no line. No lights shine. The ringer goes off, but only on half the phones in the office. Once connected, the caller may speak normally however, the call cannot be transferred because it uses no lines, and if you try to put it on hold, it hangs up.

    The frustrated staff has nicknamed this The Ghost Line. It is infuriating customers and driving the office staff to distraction running for phones which can actually take the call. The mysterious, impossible call.

    *spooky ghost noises*

    On a more serious note, management does know about this problem but it’s suddenly come to their attention that forcing us to use sub-par, shabby and often scrounged freebies as tools to get our work done for the last decade is biting us in the butt now that we’re trying to grow and we can only afford to address so many things at once. The phones are kinda low on the list. -_-

    1. Blue Eagle*

      Is there some reason why you can’t get the customer’s phone number immediately when answering the phone and then call them back if the call gets lost? In the past few months when I’ve made calls to a service provider, the first thing they do is confirm the phone number where I can be reached if something happens to end the call prematurely.

      1. Amber Rose*

        The call doesn’t get lost unless you foolishly try to put them on hold. The annoyance is that you can’t transfer them to the correct department, and literally none of our customers want to be told we’ll have to call them back. Since they usually only call when it’s an emergency.

    2. Just Another Manic Millie*

      While the situations really aren’t similar, you just reminded me of the horrible telephone at a former company. I was hired to be an admin (the ad said that a college degree was required), but on my first day, I was baited-and-switched into being the receptionist. Even if I hadn’t minded being the receptionist, I still would have quit very shortly afterwards because of the horrible telephone.

      When I connected a caller to a co-worker, it was impossible to look at the telephone and see whose extension was being used. If the call was the only call that was going on at the time, then as long as I remembered that I had given the call to Fergus, that was okay. But if someone in the office picked up his phone to make an outside call, it was impossible for me to figure out who else was on the phone. And if one of those two people hung up, I couldn’t tell if it was Fergus or the other person whose identity I didn’t know who had hung up.

      So when a call came in for someone, I could tell if several people were on the phone, but I had no way of knowing which co-workers were on the phone. If the caller wanted to talk to Fergus, I didn’t know if Fergus was already on the phone or not, so I would put the call through. When Fergus came over to me and screamed that I shouldn’t give him a call when he was already on the phone, because it made his phone ring and ring, and it was very distracting when he was already on another call. I tried telling him that I had no way of knowing that he was another call, but it did no good.

      Then I would try to take a message, but often the caller would ask to be put on hold. So I felt forced to put him on hold, except that I had no idea when Fergus or whoever the caller wanted to talk to got off the phone. So I would wait a few minutes and ring Fergus, only to find out that Fergus was still on the other call. Or maybe he had hung up and was now on a new call. It was impossible for me to figure out who was on the phone and who was not.

      When I was given correspondence to file, I saw that there many letters of former receptionists at that company who had quit on their first day, and they were asking for their paychecks. I don’t know how I managed to last five weeks there. And luckily, I didn’t have to write to them for my final paycheck – they sent it to me.

  80. Usually a different name, but not for this*

    Going anon here for obvious reasons when you read it. I need some outside perspective here, specifically from CPAs/auditors/those with similar ethical standards.

    I work for a US public company, required to follow SOX, in the internal audit department. Staff level, not management, but I have similar experience as managers do. We follow IIA principles. I’m quite worried that our chief audit executive (CAE) is bowing to pressure.

    A key SOX control, impacting the entire entity, did not function all year. It’s bad, I fully expect a significant deficiency, and material weakness isn’t likely but there is an argument to be made. Impact to the business appears to be limited, but they got things right by accident not on purpose (thus why MW isn’t likely). Lots of people involved trying to determine extent of impact and more importantly clean it up so 2020 has a good start.

    The internal audit department had an opportunity to discover how bad the control operation was during standard SOX testing, and we did raise an issue, but only “isolated problems” – not the systemic problem it’s now clear it is. From what I understand from the actual staff doing the work, the manager tried to justify a bunch of issues, so things were minimized. The Board is not going to be happy. The c-suite is not happy. There are 2x daily updates to the CFO about the status, and I’m sure there’s very frequent updates to the CEO. It’s possible that the CAE’s job is on the line here. There’s at least 1 higher level manager in the business area that dropped the ball that is likely to be axed.

    This week, there was a 45+ minute long conversation between the management people in charge of figuring out the mess and the CAE, that really should have been in a conference room but was in the middle of the desk area. During that conversation, the CAE was trying to argue that it should not be a significant deficiency, merely a control weakness. This is setting off alarm bells for me, specifically relating to the independence principles.

    There have been other, smaller concerns, where things that were wrong and should have been called out weren’t, or were significantly softened (unrelated to the SOX stuff). The internal audit department is also not respected by the business areas.

    I’m not happy here, none of the staff are, largely because of mismanagement in the department. We are not complying with the IIA standards and will fail peer review (and not by a little). The dept is actively recruiting 4 management positions, including my new direct manager when they are hired. My plan was to stick it out, see what happens, then decide based on the new situation. Now, I’m starting to question if I can stay if the CAE is still here, knowing that I have these concerns about the ethical and professional standards of the CAE. I’m feeling very uncomfortable.

    So, others who understand, what think you?

    1. CL Cox*

      If it were me, I’d start looking, but not be in a big hurry. You can afford to be picky about what you take. If you are at all concerned that your job could be on the line if they decide to clean house, you”ll want to get out now, so that your job search isn’t tainted by the specter of ethical issues.

      1. Usually a different name, but not for this*

        That makes a lot of sense, thanks. Discrete job search, be selective. I have the experience and background that finding a new job isn’t terribly difficult. And I can pause or speed up based on what happens here.

        Even if the CAE is ousted, I don’t think ethical issues would be the direct reason, but more not able to lead a good audit department. I can be a good auditor with an incompetent CAE and be ok on the job market. But good point, and I’ll keep my ears open for any hints of ethical concerns that others have.

    2. Usually a different name, but not for this*

      I do have a safe harbor if I need it – former employer would hire me back, they’ve asked a few times, most recently a few weeks ago. It’s not a job I would want long term, but it would be fine for a few years.

  81. LibraryRecs*

    Does anyone have any book recommendations that might help college students learn to write resumes and/or cover letters?

    I work for a library at a university, and we’re trying to get some more resources to help our students with all the job application writing they will need to do. Obviously, Alison’s book is at the top of our list, but if anyone knows of other books that might be helpful, I’d love to get some suggestions!

    1. Practice, Practice, Practice*

      Honestly, practice. When you say “resources”, are you meaning only books? Or could you also put together some sample resumes of sample students searching for college jobs and careers (bad ones and good ones) so students can visually see the differences?

      1. Entry-level Marcus*

        Yes on examples! I would have found that really helpful.

        Make sure they’re from a variety of fields/majors, though (my university had a few, but they all were for business/engineering students and weren’t helpful for a liberal arts grad like me). Also, try to have examples of strong resumes/cover letters from, well, more normal students (i.e., not someone who was study body president AND ran two separate clubs AND had a 3.8 GPA).

  82. Part-time Full-time*

    My very flexible full-time admin job (of 8 years) is going to become part-time due to company downsizing. I’ve decided to look for another part-time job (so I’d have two part-time jobs) since I’m hoping the company will bounce back. Looking for upsides/downsides to the ‘two part-time jobs gig’, since I’ve only ever worked one full time job in the past. Appreciate any advice, personal experiences, etc. since this lack of stability is stressful, thanks!

    1. OhNo*

      I did the two part-time job set up for… five years, give or take a few months, so maybe my experience will help. I’m in the US, just in case there are differences that might come into play from that.

      Biggest downside that I ran into: lack of benefits. No employer-provided insurance meant I had to find and pay for my own (which was more expensive), and I couldn’t afford vision, dental, or disability-related coverage so I just didn’t have those. There were other benefits I would have liked to use but didn’t have as a part-timer, like tuition remission and retirement plan. It’s going to be important to plan around the lack of things like that if you’re used to having them.

      PTO/vacation/holidays were also a pain to deal with. My jobs almost never lined up on holidays, and scheduling time off was also tricky because the jobs would have their busy periods at completely different times. There was a good two-year period where I only ever got half-days off because I couldn’t get cleared to take PTO on the same day at both jobs.

      Scheduling was a pain, too. Most part-time jobs are set up like they expect to be your only job, which was never the case for me. Finding a second job that fit around my first job’s schedule was hard, and negotiating schedule once I’d found one could be a pain, too. I had to give up on one job pretty quick because they kept scheduling me during first-job’s hours. I spent three months “reminding” them that I couldn’t work afternoons before I gave up and quit to find a different position that could actually remember a schedule.

      The nice thing I ran into, though, was that all of my part-time jobs were hourly. That was great for me. On days when first-job was closed, I could usually pick up more hours at second-job to make sure I wasn’t going to miss out on pay, or vice versa.

      I also absolutely loved getting to completely switch jobs in the middle of the day. It was like a complete reset for my brain. Going from a morning of retail or call center work to an afternoon of more traditional office work let me use completely different parts of my brain that I don’t get to use now that I’m in an office full-time.

      It also let me build some experience in a completely unrelated field, which makes me more marketable going forward. Having so much customer service experience gave me a big leg up when I was interviewing for the full-time job I had now. Plus I know I have a resume that will let me find temporary work easily if I should ever need to. Knowing I have a back-up is a nice feeling of security.

    2. Princess Scrivener*

      I haven’t looked into this recently but between jobs about 10 years ago, I researched virtual admin assistant jobs. Does that sound like it could work for you?

    3. Alex*

      I did this for a while when I was young. First, make sure that your first company is still giving you benefits. My current company gives anyone working 50% or more benefits–hope yours does as well.

      For me the worst part of working two jobs was that it actually took longer than working one full job, due to having to commute in the middle. So, I had to get up, commute to job one, work for four hours, then commute to job two, and work for another four hours, and then commute home. This was an 11-12 hour escapade each day, particularly because of the “padding” time of arriving, departing, and arriving and departing again. Now that I work just one job, I can get my whole work day in in 10 hours most days (not all days..). Because I was also in (online) school full time during the time I worked these two jobs, I could have really used that extra hour or two each day!

      The other hard thing was getting any time truly off. I didn’t have benefits, and certainly no paid vacation, so that made taking time off a big financial sacrifice. In addition, I had to request and coordinate time off with two different places that had two different needs and procedures for requesting time off, so that’s much harder than navigating the PTO system in one job.

      On the other hand, when I was laid off from one job, it was less of a hit, because I still had the other job. So there’s that.

  83. Metric Slide Converter*

    I’m currently a stay-at-home mom who is in the process of preparing to start my job search next month, and I have a question in regard to addressing my employment gap in my cover letter.

    To preface, I worked in accounting in the same industry for a decade before quitting several years ago to stay at home with my kids. While at home, I also went to school part time, and I graduated with an associate’s degree in accounting last year. Additionally, my husband and I have a small company that invests in the same industry I worked in, so I handle all of our company’s bookkeeping. I’ve also purchased and read various materials recommended by the industry’s accounting association to keep myself current on accounting practices. I even purchased and read the latest industry-specific accounting textbook used by the local major university.

    How much of what I wrote above would be appropriate to include in my cover letter? I’m concerned that employers may be less willing to consider me as a candidate given my long period of unemployment. I want to convey that even though I’ve been a stay-at-home mom for several years, I’ve also used that time to further my education and keep current on accounting standards.

    Any tips or thoughts you all may have would be appreciated!

    1. Pumpa Rumpa*

      As I see it, you don’t have an employment gap. You are the bookkeeper for you and your husband’s company. That experience should absolutely be on your resume, if it isn’t already.

      1. blackcat*

        Yep, I’d list “part-time booking” as a real job. Because it is. Your husband is going to have to hire someone to do that if you’ll be working a full-time job.

    2. CL Cox*

      I stayed at home for 15 years. But during that time, I ran my own company and had enough clients to file as self-employed for taxes. So I absolutely listed that on my resume. I would not bring up the staying at home part until you get to the interview stage. You had two part-time jobs – student and bookkeeper. And definitely highlight that you’ve kept up with industry standards and skills in your cover letter. Not only does that make you marketable, it shows that you’ve got initiative and are forward-thinking.

      If they ask in the interview why you went to part-time work, you can explain that you wanted to concentrate on raising your kids and getting your degree, so working part-time made the most sense.

    3. It takes a village*

      Also, be prepared with professional skills you learned/ practiced while a “stay at home” person. Running a family takes calendar skills, organization, mediation, balancing multiple demanding priorities, planning, etc.

      1. valentine*

        be prepared with professional skills you learned/ practiced while a “stay at home” person.
        That would be the bookkeeping. Running your household may help you as an employee, but probably not as a job searcher.

  84. Coworker conundrum*

    I have a bit of a conundrum with my colleague, Ellie.

    We’re peers, hired a few months apart a few years ago. She directly reports to my Grandboss, but this is not a hierarchical matter, we’re treated in all matters the same. We’re also salaried, our version of exempt, and have the same salary.

    Our company offers a lot of flexibility, while wfh is not part of our hiring agreements, there is an document that says that this is something to negotiate with your boss. On my team and Ellie’s team almost everyone (including the bosses) wfh 1-2 days a week or as necessary by preference.

    Because I have a complicated family situation and a long commute with public transport, I usually wfh Fridays (sometimes Mondays) to evade the crush. Due to the commuting situation I also leave the office on the dot of the hour every day, but my boss knows if work is left over I will do it in the evening. I’m VERY good at my job, as per management, and I have never been told that what I am doing is not okay. I also usually work longer hours on my wfh days and get more done (fewer distractions).

    She never wfh. She lives in the city (unlike most others) and comes every day no matter what. She’s also somewhat displeased with wfh in general, but for some reason it seems to rub her wrong with me in particular. About 2-4 times per month I get little comments like “but this is not in your contract”, “this is not really your right” etc. I never know what to say. I’m sure of she were the boss, no one would wfh except when absolutely necessary.

    I don’t know why, honestly. I’m sure she doesn’t know how much I work, but I also don’t care whether she does or how much she/others work(s). I spend less time in the office, but I also spend less time having coffee with others, chatting, etc. so I get all my work done. I realize that my trade off is less casual relationships/connections, but I suck at small talk anyway, my hobbies are too weird to talk about and I have accepted that as the price for my streamlined day.

    The other day there was discussion at lunch about having a private evening event and a new hire on my team asked me whether better a Friday or any day of the week. Truth be told “not at all” would be my preferred answer, because with evening events I need to spend the night on my own dime and I have obligations at home. But okay, I’m a member of a team so I can make arrangements for one night and there we go and I just said, “oh, I usually work from home Fridays” and Ellie turns to me and says “but that’s not guaranteed in your contract!”. Well no. But I usually do. I also don’t want to spend my Friday evening and Saturday morning (due to spending the night) on a work event. 

    Since she isn’t exactly impressed when I point out that Boss and Grandboss are okay with this, I’m at a loss, and I don’t know if it’s the Friday or the wfh in general that ticks her off. Any thoughts on how to answer this kind of little jibes? Should I answer at all? 

    1. Mazzy*

      Is WFH supposed to be documented? Are you in the UK? I’ve been listening to many reddit stories and it seems that in the UK they document everything in a contract. Not so in the US. Anyway, I think you should have lunch or a sitdown with her and go over what work you do at night and what kind of hours you do. The typical answer might be “this is none of her business,” but your goal here is to have a good relationship and get this to stop, and telling her some variation of “this is none of her business” isn’t going to help. Who knows, we’ve seen stories here and in other places about people abusing WFH. I’ve worked with people who abused WFH. It’s common. It’s not crazy if someone is concerned about it. So address it. And then ask her to not bring up the contract part unless that is a normal thing to bring up in your country. It’s bizarre if it’s happening in the USA.

      1. Coworker conundrum*

        I’m not in the US (or the UK). I have an employment contract, this is standard where we are, I’m merely calling us exempt because functionally it’s the same sort of law. I also track my project hours.

        Even if I were abusing wfh, this does not impact her work but would only hurt my performance… I understand where you’re coming from, but it would still not be her concern…

    2. Fiona*

      If she were commenting maybe once a month, I would say ignore it. But 2-4 times a month? That’s excessive and would drive me insane. Alison has some good language in the archives about this, but I think you could address it directly in some warmer, personal version of: “You’ve brought up a few times that you have an issue with my working from home. As you know, working from home is something many of us have negotiated with Grandboss and they are 100% fine with it. Can I ask you to stop commenting about it to me?”

      If she doesn’t stop, I would just ask point-blank “What’s going on?” and sit there in silence as she flails around. (“Return awkward to sender!”)

      If she STILL doesn’t stop, I would talk to your boss.

      2. Daisy Avalin*

        Yeah, I’d be tempted if she didn’t stop, to say “Why are you so worried about the wfh schedule that I have worked out with Boss & Grand-Boss?” and then just look at her with a politely enquiring look on your face. If she flails around, or just goldfishes at you, then turn back to whoever you were talking with and continue the conversation like Ellie never spoke.
        Also, do make it clear to new hires that wfh is a possibility at Boss/Brand-Boss’s discretion. I want to say tell them that Ellie has no power in this matter, but I’m not sure how to word that without making her seem petty and weird on the matter!

      3. Coworker conundrum*

        Thanks for your reply!

        It’s mostly really annoying to turn around the same thing over and over.

        But yes, I probably should just ask point black but warmly. I’m sure she has some reason and wouldn’t just flail. I just don’t know why it concerns her so much (our work overlaps but only insofar as our processes are the same, we don’t work on the same projects) and why she feels compelled to bring it up.

        I will try this. Thank you.

        1. Insurance Mom*

          You guys are awfully nice About this. I’d be at the end of my patience. Remind her you save your commute time, often work a longer day and the bosses are okay with it! And to lay off!

          1. Coworker conundrum*

            Mh, yes, but here’s the rub:

            Does it annoy me? Sure! But if I make a whole thing of it then it becomes friction and my bosses (boss and grandboss) don’t like friction in the teams. Which, I think the occasional professional friction is a good thing, but I’m not the boss.

            So trying once with kindness and understanding is the way to go. The alternative is continue to ignore it going forward. I don’t want to make it a thing; wfh is normal in our workplace, and I don’t want to defend it by actual reasoning, because that would make it not normal. I don’t need to defend it, my boss once said to me (about staying home an additional day because I was feeling horrible and was possibly contagious) that “it’s not a problem at all, I know you work on those days and are not doing laundry or whatever”.

  85. Bumblebee*

    Having a hard time deciding what I want my future career path to look like. I went to school for let’s say llama biology and have been searching for a llama biologist job ever since (7 years ago now). Worked for a bit in llama health enforcement and didn’t like it, now work in llama outreach, educating people on how to take care of llamas. A llama biologist position has opened up in my program and I feel like I should take advantage but I’m really conflicted. My current boss is really great and I do a lot of creative work right now that I really enjoy. The llama biologist would be a more prestigious position, but functionally would be counting llama fleas all day for a long time. But someday I could be head llama biologist whereas there isn’t really a direction for any more upward growth in my current position. Anyone have advice?

    1. HRlady*

      I say happiness wins out of over prestigious. Like you said you could end up as a head llama biologist but does that job description sound like something you would like to do? If it is just because you feel you should be the department head or something along those lines maybe that will lead you to doing some self evaluation. You shouldn’t feel bad or that you should take on a higher up job just for the prestigious. If the less glamorous job makes you happy than you should stick with it. I enjoyed this book: https://www.amazon.com/Happier-Learn-Secrets-Lasting-Fulfillment-ebook/dp/B003XNTU5M. It really helped me evaluate what was important to me, especially what I want work wise.

    2. CheeryO*

      It’s so hard to make those kind of decisions! One thing to remember is that your current boss probably won’t be around forever. If you got a new boss and they weren’t as great as your current boss, would that tip the scales and make you want to jump ship?

      I’m not sure how literal you’re being with your titles, but pure biology roles seem to be extremely hard to come by. Either way, I tend to think that there’s a bigger regret potential to passing on a position that aligns with your education and has growth potential, but of course it’s impossible to predict how things will work out.

      Also remember that it’s super normal to feel conflicted about leaving a job that you like, even if it’s 100 percent the right decision on paper. Change is hard!

    3. Daisy-dog*

      I think you should apply and learn more about the position. You don’t know if you’ll get it, so it may not even make a difference.

  86. PositivePolly*

    Tips on insulating yourself from a negative office culture so that you can still manage to enjoy your job? I work in a small office of about 10 people. I’ve only been here for about a year and a half, and I’ve come to learn that most of my coworkers are pretty soul-sucking to be around. However, everything else about the job is pretty good for me right now, so I don’t want to leave. My mood and levels of motivation are often very influenced by those around me, so it’s hard to keep trying to perform at a high level and be positive when nearly everyone around me seems to be constantly griping or moping around. Even I’ve gotten sucked in and found myself piling on to gripes in conversations with my coworkers – and I hate that! I don’t want to be like that. It’s a pretty flat organization and I’m not a supervisor, so I don’t have the ability to change much other than my own behavior and performance. I’m the type that is excited to try new things and likes to work on my own professional and personal development, but I feel pretty alone in that mindset here. I’ve read a lot on AAM and other blogs on how to deal with individual negative coworkers, but I haven’t seen much on how to deal when most of your coworkers are that way (and the only advice I have seen has been to quit since the culture will never change). I wish I could operate in a magical bubble that would protect me from negativity – any tips on building that bubble?

    1. Daisy-dog*

      Are you highly sensitive or an empath? You can find a quiz online if you want to see. With either, there are lots of blogs that can give coping mechanisms for various circumstances.

      Overall, it is rough. You don’t want that be *that* person who always disagrees with them when they’re griping (even if it’s just a positive spin – they’re gripers, they won’t see it that way). Can you pick out 4-5 topics that you can cycle through when you want to chat with your co-workers to prevent total social isolation? And when you can’t steer the conversation there, just leave or put in headphones or sing a song inside your head?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Following on, it might help to develop some topic change phrases to use when you get drawn interviews work complaints. Maybe you make brief vaguely sympathetic comments first and then say something like, It makes me really look forward to Hobby or Movie Coming Out Soon or Fun TV show, have you done/seen that? Or eaten at X Restaurant yet? Recommendations for Specific Cuisine?

        Try to picture yourself as the safe topic person. You’re not the office Pollyanna, you’re the go to person when others need a break from dwelling on work for a few minutes.

    2. Blarg*

      I read this as “tips on insulting yourself…” and I was ready to make abundant and useful recommendations. FYI. ;)

  87. Madame Zeroni*

    My bosses, a husband and wife team who also own the company, constantly tells our all female staff that we are not allowed to get married or have children. I’m assuming they don’t want us to take off long periods of time for these life events.

    Surprise! I’m pregnant! I had a doctors appointment this month to confirm my pregnancy and when I told my bosses I would be in late, the husband asked, “Are you pregnant.” I said no. Next month, I have a prenatal checkup and a first trimester screen. When I told my bosses I would need time off for these appointments, the wife exclaimed, “You better not be pregnant!” I told her my appointments are a personal matter. The same day, I overheard the husband telling three colleagues they couldn’t have children.

    I will announce my pregnancy after my first trimester screen as I will be right around 12 weeks. How do I deal with the unnecessary and obnoxious comments in the interim?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Congratulations!

      Does the Pregnancy Discrimination Act apply to you? I think the only stipulation is more than 15 employees, but there may be others. If it does apply, I’d read up on that. Maybe use Alison’s technique of “I’m pretending to help you out and that you may not know about this and I’m saving us both (you) a lot of legal trouble”. You might also look if your state has further protections in place beyond the PDA.

      If it doesn’t apply, I’d pick a dry phrase and repeat over and over. “My health is none of your business” “Please stop asking about my doctor’s appointments” “*shrug*” “Do you want to talk about my uterus? I have this great remedy for cramps to share!”. Whatever works for you, but I think having that one phrase might be useful.

      1. Madame Zeroni*

        I posed this question on a different forum as well as was told the PDA protects me from having my job changed but I will look into it further. Thanks for the suggestion! I am not covered by FMLA but my state does provide Paid Family Leave and I believe that offers job protection as well but I will double check.

        Once I do announce my pregnancy, I was going to use Alison’s recent suggestion of “I prefer not to discuss my pregnancy at work” and keep all conversations focused on preparing for my leave.

    2. blackcat*

      So, I know “change jobs” is not always helpful advice, but…
      If these people are legitimately telling people they are not allowed to get married or have kids, this is not a place to work once you have a child. They’ll likely find some way to fire you anyways, and give you a crappy reference.
      Changing jobs while pregnant is hard, but if it is at all possible, I’d do it if I were you. For me, it was critically important to work with understanding folks when I had a newborn who turned into a baby with high medical needs.
      You never know what will happen, except that these people are going to treat you like crap *because they are already treating you like crap.* It’s only going to get worse once you announce. These people aren’t bothered by anti-discrimination laws now, and they’re not going to be bothered later.
      I’d deny, deny, deny even after I was showing partly to preserve having a job as long as possible and save money. Most first time moms don’t show until 14 weeks. I’ve known some who manage to rock the “pregnant or just gaining weight?” look up until 24 weeks with the help of appropriate clothing. The only reason why I showed at 13ish weeks was I’m tiny to begin with and lost a ton of weight, so I was a stick with a belly. Even then, I could hide it with the right clothes until 16ish weeks.

      1. Madame Zeroni*

        So this is actually my second pregnancy. I was not with my current employer during my first pregnancy. I think I will show earlier for that reason. To be eligible for maternity leave benefits in my state, I need to be with the same employer for 26 weeks before I go out on leave. Based on how far along I am, that only gives me 4 weeks to find a job, apply, interview, and receive an offer which is ambitious in my opinion. I’ve thought long and hard about leaving and I don’t think it’s an option for me at this point.

        1. Madame Zeroni*

          Also, my bosses will be leaving for a month plus long vacation the day before my first trimester screen. They will be “working remotely” while away and I’m not telling them until they return so that should bring me close to the 20 week mark before I announce.

          1. Threeve*

            While they’re gone, can you rally the other employees they’ve been talking to like that? If everybody was willing to stand firm and acknowledge how inappropriate they’re being, it might get them to shut up.

            Even if they aren’t planning to have children, they can definitely say: “that’s not an okay thing to tell an employee.” And should. It’s not even uterus-having solidarity. It’s just boundary-stomping-assholes-suck solidarity.

            1. Madame Zeroni*

              One colleague will definitely rally with me but I’m not sure about the rest. The last time a boss told us we weren’t allowed to have kids this particular coworker responded with “I’m trying for a girl” since she is the mom of all boys. She is not actually trying. I almost choked on my water from laughing.

              1. valentine*

                I’d deny, deny, deny even after I was showing partly to preserve having a job as long as possible and save money.
                Yes. Proceed as though they are going to fire you at the worst possible time. On your first day of leave? Last day? Learn the law and your rights and consult a lawyer.

                There’s no harm in job searching. A miracle may not happen and you may end up with a job but no right to paid leave, but if that’s better than no job at all, you’ll want to go for it.

                Announce your pregnancy as late as possible. You owe them nothing. They’re harassing your colleagues and you in a sexist manner. (Do they only hire young women they think have no dependents?) There’s just no reason to trust these people. If they’re meant to abide by some law to make sure they can pay you during family leave, assume they haven’t done so. Maybe their finances are horrid and they simply can’t afford for any of you to be out for long and don’t want to be found out anytime soon.

      1. Madame Zeroni*

        If they are it’s a terrible attempt at humor.

        I think they just don’t want to deal with having to reassign work during people’s absences. Paid Family Leave is still fairly new in my state and only one other employee has used this benefit. A year after the employee returned, my bosses were still complaining about how difficult it was to manage while this person was out which makes zero sense to me because they knew this leave was coming. They could have planned better. Announcing my pregnancy will give them more notice then if I quit and only gave two weeks. No matter what, they’re shitty comments and need to stop.

        1. Threeve*

          Shitty comments from shitty people. The world needs future humans. Either way, I think you can pretend you think they’re joking and still shut things down. “You know, that’s not something pregnant ladies–or lawyers!–find very funny.”

          2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

            The world would do fine without future happens, Probably much better than it is with humans.

  88. De Minimis*

    So I posted last week about having to do a PowerPoint presentation to answer the “Tell me about yourself” question at a job interview. There were some weird technical hiccups [although I was told it was over Skype, it turned out it wasn’t and I had to download the software literally 2 minutes before the interview] but it went fine, and I was informed yesterday I’m their top candidate and they’ve started on my references.

    Only bad part is that they also told me they have to talk to my current manager, so I had to break it to her today but I think it went well.

    BTW, this is a federal job and it’s been about a month since the job closed so they can move pretty quickly when they want to.

    2. nym*

      Feds can work really fast when they want to. I may hold the record – three days from first interview, to second interview, to being notified that I was selected, to formal offer. The time from job closing to interview was also fast, about five weeks. This was an externally posted position (although I was an internal candidate).

      I think the real difference was the person behind the scenes pushing, pushing, pushing for it to happen fast, fast, fast. HR and others did the processing quickly to get her out of their inboxes.

  89. Mazzy*

    My work computer unexpectedly died this week and I got upset in the office and then got sick that night and have been out sick for two days. I’m afraid people are going to think I called in sick as some sort of protest against some things IT did (or didn’t do) when in reality it’s just horrible timing!

    1. Kathenus*

      Unless you have a history of overreacting to frustrations in the past, I wouldn’t worry about it. But if it helps you not worry about it so much, craft a response for when you get back so you’re ready with it. Someone asks “How do you feel” or “Why were you out” – and you say something like “I’m fine, it was just a sinus headache, don’t worry, it wasn’t computer-frustration-itis” or something goofy like that.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I wouldn’t even bring up the option of “computer-frustration-itis”, that makes a connection that most people will not have. Giving out a vague description of the kind of illness (‘a cold’ or ‘a stomach bug’) should be enough to keep people on the right track.

    2. Jellyfish*

      Eh, I’d think the exact opposite if you were my coworker. An unexpected dramatic reaction is pretty explainable if you’re coming down with an illness and your body is already fighting it & getting fatigued.
      If I connected the two things at all, it’d be, “oh, that’s probably why Mazzy got so upset – they weren’t feeling great already, and the computer just tipped them over the edge. Happens to the best of us.”

    3. JustaTech*

      Naw, spin it the other way! “I should have known I was getting sick when I got so upset at my computer, it was so out of character for me.”

      But really I bet 98% of people don’t even remember, probably not even the IT folks.

  90. meh*

    I feel like I’m a pretty efficient/productive employee, especially because of my hermit-type personality that has made it possible for me to go through a whole day without talking to anyone.

    But since I got this new job, I find it really hard to summarize what I did for an entire day, because a lot of it would consist of troubleshooting, answering questions, following up, updating project progress spreadsheet, having meetings with team members in a different building, walking, being reminded of what my priorities are for the project, sitting through people discussing and debating, sitting through inane conversations in-between, walking back to my seat, preparing for meetings with management, freaking out after being reminded by management of deadlines, logging my hours to prove that I’m not just sitting around doing nothing, participating in birthday/baby shower celebrations, then leaving because I can’t work more than 8 hours/day.

    Seriously, though, how do I “prove” my worth as an employee when that’s the gist of what I do on a daily basis?

    1. Sheffy4*

      To clarify, is it required that you log all your tasks by the hour every day (and if so, exactly what level of detail to they require)? Or this is just something you do personally in case management asks what you’ve been up to?

    2. CheeryO*

      Well, one thing would be to re-frame your idea of worth based on the actual expectations of your position. Are you actually expected to be pumping out tons of work every day? A lot of jobs, even ones that sound intense on paper, essentially boil down to answering emails, staying organized, and attending meetings. If you’re meeting expectations, there’s no reason to think that you’re not valuable to your employer!

      Also, I think you may be under-valuing some of this stuff because of your personality type. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sat through a long meeting that didn’t explicitly involve me, only to have some helpful bit of information come out of it. Maybe a similar situation or project will come up later and you’ll have some helpful input because you remember some of the inane back-and-forth that people had. You just never know.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Count. Track the numbers of people you helped, the number of problems you addressed, the number of meetings you attended.

    4. Senor Montoya*

      There ya go, you just summarized it in a paragraph. Add details if needed but otherwise looks good to me!

  91. Llama Wrangler*

    This week’s question about weight/other people’s perceptions of things you’re self conscious prompted me to wonder – what’s the most professional way to handle intermittent but prominent pimples?

    In the last couple of years, I’ve been regularly getting acne pustules (the kind that are red and inflamed with a white head) on my chin, generally one at a time every few weeks. I am very religious about not picking, which is good for my skin health, but means they remain kind of obvious until they resolve. Generally, with the treatment I use, they resolve within a day, but that’s still a day of them being highly visible (and gross looking). The makeup I currently have doesn’t do an effective job covering them up (and I’m wary of making them worse by putting too much on them). Sometimes, they’ll even balloon from a red spot to something with a full blown pustule over the course of the work day, and then even if I wanted to cover them up, I’d have to bring everything with me and apply coverup in the bathroom mid-day.

    How do other people handle this?

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Huh. When I’ve asked people, they’ve always said a bandaid on my chin/lower cheek is much more distracting. What do other people think?

        1. Yamma*

          I use acne healing patches instead. I like the micro-needle ones – they make the spot disappear super fast if I stick them on immediately I notice one developing. They’re not terribly noticeable, much less so than a plaster (bandaid) and I can mostly cover them with my foundation/concealer.

    2. Karen Walker presents...*

      I get a generous flare up of Seborrheic dermatitis on my forehead and chin. Flazy and itchy. I have medicine and the flareups are due to my period. Honestly, I forget (only remembering when it begs me to itch it) because I can’t do anything about it after I apply meds. Mine is somewhat coverable by makeup.

      Many of your coworkers have invisible illnesses and ailments that you can’t see but they have every belief everyone knows they’re going through problems – whether its GI, skin issues below clothes, headaches/migraines, blood issues, and the gamut in between. You’re all in this together whether you know it or not.

      Professional is making yourself presentable at work in the best way you know how. And not letting yourself be distracted by it. We have to be tolerant of the weird things our bodies do to us.

      Good luck.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m a big fan of those acne dot sticker things (sorry, that is not a great explanation!) that work wonders for these types of blemishes. Depending on your skin tone, they sometimes blend in – and I have friends who have put makeup on over it, so the patch serves as a protector to the blemish.

      I used to encounter the chin acne a lot and it wasn’t until I tried DOZENS of different types of face washes over the course of years that I was finally able to find a combination of face washes that worked to rid me of them nearly entirely.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        I love the dot stickers, too, but I haven’t found a way to use them at work — I feel like they’re relatively noticeable over my skin tone, and when I’ve tried putting makeup over them, it clumps or runs. And for the big white heads, I feel like they don’t even really conceal the pimple. I use them as soon as I get home through right before I leave for the office, which is part of why this is usually just a one day issue. But maybe I can put one under a bandaid in the really bad cases and get the impact of the sticker and the discreeteness of the bandaid.

        1. Metric Slide Converter*

          In regard to covering an acne patch with makeup, if you’re having issues camouflaging it with foundation or concealer, powder may work better. I find that gently patting powder on top of and right around the acne patch with a small, flat makeup brush works well on bigger pimples.

    4. Just a PM*

      Neutrogena has an on-the-spot acne treatment that reduces redness pretty quickly. I carry a tube of it with me for when I get self-conscious to put on in the bathroom. It works 50/50 for me. I don’t wear any other makeup other than a face sunscreen so I don’t know how well it works if you have other products/makeup on.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Can I ask what it is specifically? I use a neutrogena benzoyl peroxide spot treatment that is effective treatment but doesn’t reduce redness (and leaves white residue if I’m not careful).

        1. Blarg*

          Salicylic acid is my preferred over benzoyl.

          Also, people don’t notice nearly as much as we notice about ourselves. I developed psoriasis really young and it’s in some ways been liberating because over the years I’ve realized no one freaking sees it. So I now base treatment choices on how it feels vs how it looks.

    5. Metric Slide Converter*

      I’m a fan of the acne patches as well. I like the COSRX Acne Pimple Master Patches because they adhere well to the skin, come in three sizes, and are almost clear in color. If I have a pimple that’s impossible to conceal with makeup, I put on an acne patch and blend a tiny amount of foundation or concealer over it. Depending on the state and location of the pimple, I might have to change the patch at lunch time or in the early afternoon, so I keep an extra patch and some concealer in my purse.

    6. blink14*

      Ugh, this is the worst! I had weeping acne in college and it was the biggest hit to my self confidence, even more than gaining weight from medical issues.

      I wouldn’t cover it up, if you can. That can make the healing process more difficult, and most makeup over cystic acne looks worse than if you just leave it alone. However, there is a company called Clarisea, which produces products based on seal salt, that makes a matte powder that mattifies the skin but also has healing properties to it. I’ve used some of their other cleanser and face mask products in the past and they work really well.

      Hydrogen peroxide is really good for this – use a q-tip and put a bit on the pimple a couple of times a day until it heals. It will speed up the process. You can also ice it for short periods of time.

      Acne on the chin is generally considered to be from hormone imbalances, might be worth considering if you’ve changed something in your diet, medications, etc. You may want to look into seeing a specialized esthetician who can recommend some treatment options or see a dermatologist (I would be wary of oral antibiotic treatments).

      When I was in college, I stopped using all the dermatologist recommended treatments, which included antibiotics, and started getting specialized facials. Literally after the first one my skin was never that bad again, and now its so much better. I still get the occasional break out, but I can almost always link it back to something specifically, and I was diagnosed with rosacea a few years ago, took about a year of religious topical treatment to significantly reduce redness from that, and now it’s more about maintaining.

      1. Mia 52*

        Just a small note- hydrogen peroxide encourages scarring, so if you use it on acne you will end up with worse acne scars and pitting. If that doesn’t bother you and its more about clearing up the infection it would make sense to use it (and I have a few times). But hydrogen peroxide kills everything around it including some healthy tissue.

        1. blink14*

          I’ve never had a problem with acne scarring and using peroxide, I have very minimal acne scarring as it is. I use a very tiny amount aimed directly at the head of the pimple. It’s also a common recommendation from licensed aestheticians.

    7. Daisy-dog*

      I just power through like nothing is wrong. I’m of the belief that it’s natural for these kinds of things to happen to people and no sense in wasting too much mental energy.

      The exception is sunburn because I can’t stand when people comment on my sunburn and I burn soooooo easily.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If you wear scarves, be sure to wash them often!

      I have acne and often just deal until it’s gone. Which especially sucked when I got a huge pimple on the tip of my already somewhat large nose.

    9. Alcott*

      Hydrocortisone cream to help with the inflammation. I don’t attempt to cover them with anything. I’ve tried those acne patches every beauty list raves about and was not impressed. All they do for me is rip open the pustule upon removal leaving behind a nasty, oozing sore. I think a bandaid would be better so you’re not putting adhesive directly on the tender blister.

  92. Operation Glowing Symphony*

    Brag Post: Since I chose to leave my last position, I’ve been pro bono consulting through CatchaFire and Taproot working with non-profits on projects virtually from home. I’m working on (5) projects of various types, for the past 70 hours/2 months and finally hit the $10,000 mark meaning my assistance has saved non-profits $10k which they can redirect these dollars to their programs and clients or themselves.

    This has been a great way to sabbatical and reflect on my career and what I want to do next. It makes me feel wanted (although a non-profit that when silent on me and I let them go) and valued for my skills not because I’m flexible enough to move my office – a 3rd time – and assume the work of three coworkers because they’ve fled the organization.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Thank you for your positive contributions in a world where we could use a lot more of that.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        Thanks. I agree and I think so many people want to positively contribute but aren’t sure how and how many do great things but don’t talk about it. I’ve been tracking this for a while and felt I needed the boost.

        I was feeling burned out about my own career field (non-profit) and wasn’t sure what I want to do next after 20 years of doing this. There’s been a point that I’ve said, “I’m ready to go back to work” and once I finish these projects, I’ll actively search and apply.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        They’re perfect for anyone wanting to use their skills/expertise to help non-profits. What I like about it is that when you apply (non-profits can accept up to 3 candidates) you interview with the non-profit and they choose who they want to work with. So the process mimics a pseudo-interview process. There are some non-profits I didn’t want to work with because I didn’t have the skills that they thought they needed so I encouraged them to look for someone who could do XYZ when I did ABC.

  93. LlamaTech*

    Coworker roles and territories question.

    I am one of four peers in a highly collaborative, project-based environment. Our roles are somewhat fluid and organic, which is generally a good thing. In general, attempts to specialize within the team have been kind of weird and inconsistent.

    One of our recent hires (team member 4) is excellent. They have strong credentials and interest in an area I’ve also specialized in in the past and have wanted our team to be stronger in. Let’s say our area of work is animal behavior and we both have experience with llamas, but I’m more technical and they are more research-based (but I’ve gone a ways down the research road, too, just not to their level).

    This new hire wants to own several things I used to do or contribute to. Some of this is great–they have skills I don’t have and there’s definitely too much for one person to do. I’ve been very open and supportive about where I’m less strong or less interested and I’ve handed over a lot. But as time goes on, they are saying more and more things about wanting to be primary or go to on nearly everything related to this overlapping area of strength. So like anything llama related, they want to handle. This now includes them wanting to own and have a primary role in areas where I am far stronger.

    But when I try to talk with them transparently about it (previously we’ve had an excellent relationship) they give mixed messages about it. They say they do want to collaborate generally, but in action get weird about sharing with some of the more nuanced things they do. And they give mixed signals about whether they feel their advanced credentials essentially entitle them to ownership of this work (these skills make the work stronger but are not the basis on which the hire was made–the job is much more broad than that).

    Simultaneously I’m realizing I would be really bummed if I moved out of llamas entirely or only dabbled in it, even though there’s other areas in animal behavior I could focus on. I don’t want one coworkers preferences and skills to totally cut off an area of development and focus for me. It’s also honestly hard to do our projects without being hands on in the area they want to own. So project success really requires some level of overlap. But now it feels like there’s a dynamic where I am stepping on toes to keep a level of involvement, even though I’ve been here far longer, due to the formality of their previous experience and their desire for autonomy in that area.

    I finally told my manager about some of what I’m struggling with (making it clear that our coworker is awesome and I generally support some areas of specialization, I’m just struggling with my own role and unclear how formal/firm/expansive this coworker’s role is.) I asked my manager if I could more explicitly handle the technical areas, and manager seems positive about it. Manager apparently sees coworkers focus in this area as more consultative and not so much as primary owner. But I think he may be missing coworkers signals that they’d prefer ownership, or coworker is not communicating it to them. Manager is generally roundabout and reluctant to make firm, ultra-clear, formal distinctions between all of us.

    Because I hear mixed things from coworker, I’m unsure what a group discussion would do to really provide clarity. I thing the coworker would make gestures toward the collaborative spirit but truly wants ownership and primary influence in this area. Now when I assert that I want involvement in particular things I feel as if they think I’m being aggressive or taking something that’s rightfully “theirs.”

    How do you go about having discussions about this when you aren’t sure everyone is being fully transparent in 1:1 conversations? I’m not convinced my manager is being clear or hearing everything, and I’m not convinced my coworker is fully realizing or admitting they want to solo own this work.

    1. Threeve*

      I think it’s important to mentally separate your coworker wanting something from your coworker getting something. People can prefer anything they want to. Sometimes that means getting what they want and sometimes it means being disappointed–we all have to be disappointed sometimes.

      Managing your coworker’s preferences isn’t on you. The fact that they’re dropping hints and getting sulky rather than addressing things directly is not your problem. You aren’t stepping on their toes, you’re just standing where you’re standing, and they’re trying to stick their toes under your feet to make you back away.

      The qualify of your outcomes matters, but your coworker’s credentials/interests/preferred level of autonomy aren’t yours to worry about, especially if they’re being all coy about it.

      You don’t have to be confrontational, just clear: “I talked with Boss and [technical responsibility] is staying on my plate. I can fill you in on my progress at [milestone].”

      Good luck!

      1. Kathenus*

        Great advice, I love your first sentence! I was going to say the same type of thing about letting them know that boss has said that you will continue to be SME in the technical llama matters, but Threeve is much more eloquent than me.

        1. LlamaTech*

          Thanks for both these responses. I think I was assuming the coworkers ownership was more sanctioned than it is. I was also really trying to be supportive because in general I’m really happy they’re on the team. Ultimately I do think it’s our manager’s responsibility to add clarity and make decisions.

          I’m starting to realize I have trouble saying things like “I got it!” at work. Not sure why. But I agree that I need to be more proactive and I shouldn’t throw away my skills just to avoid uncomfortable moments.

          1. CM*

            It’s not your fault that you’re confused and unsure of where you stand — your manager is deliberately not telling you where you stand, or telling your coworker where they stand. You’re currently working in a situation where assignments go to whoever takes them, and it seems like you and your coworker have different ideas about how it’s fair to divide that work up.

            I think what you were looking for from your manager was some kind of boundary or rule that would mean you didn’t have to let your coworker steamroll you when you both want different things — and that’s reasonable. If the two of you can’t agree about how to divide these assignments, it’s actually your manager’s job to figure it out and, by refusing to do that, your manager is essentially saying you have to get into a contest of wills with your coworker, and whoever wins gets what they want.

            That said, I think there are things you can try.

            One is to get clear in your own mind about what you want to have happen — like, you want to take assignments like X and you want your coworker to take assignments like Y. And then, talk to your coworker and explicitly say that you’re not happy with the way the works’ getting divided right now, and you sense that they would like to takeover more or all of the assignments, but you don’t want to give up that work entirely, so you’re suggesting [whatever division you’re suggesting]. And then see what they say.

            Another thing to try, if you agree with the way I just described the situation, would be trying to talk to your boss about that more explicitly — like, “I feel like, because there aren’t a lot of boundaries around our roles, sometimes we’re competing with each other for assignments, and the work goes to whoever’s pushiest about it, and I feel uncomfortable with that. Is there a way we could set up a process to fairly decide who’s going to work on what?”

            The third alternative is just to get more aggressive and take more stuff for yourself, but that’s also kind of antisocial, so I would maybe try the first two things before that.

    2. foolofgrace*

      I’m not sure who you would want the “discussions” with — the coworker, or your manager? It sounds like you’ve already run this past your manager and they sound kind of wishy-washy but it also sounds like they’ll support you. To your coworker you could say “Thanks, but I’ve got this covered” or “You don’t want to take *all* of my work, do you?” or “I have good strengths in this area so I’ll continue to handle X.” Just keep on with these like a broken record and don’t feel you have to sugar-coat it, sounds like sugar-coating days are over. Sorry I can’t be of more help and if I’ve misconstrued.

      1. LlamaTech*

        Super helpful, thank you! I think I need more open conversation with manager, and I do think because of the nature of the team and the personalities involved, some type of larger team discussion about roles and responsibilities will be necessary. There might need to be a subsequent conversation with coworker, but honestly it’s not up to the two of us to divvy up who should do what–it needs to be in collaboration with our manager and manager needs to set the boundaries.

        Manager generally really loves subtle and indirect conversation and loves it when things settle on their own. Great manager in other ways but I think we would all benefit if they would just commit to some structure and some plans.

        I do need to practice saying things like “I got it” or “I can handle it!” or even “want to do it together?”

        1. valentine*

          or even “want to do it together?”
          You can leave this out. Just because they want ground doesn’t mean you have to cede it. It’s possible they think there’s only room for one of you or they’re afraid they’d lose to you in a layoff or, for whatever reason, do want to erase the overlap by cutting you out. Be firm. I think that’ll work with your manager, too. They will say to them that you feel strongly about it, versus asking you to make nice because you keep accommodating this person.

    3. Easily Amused*

      Everyone has given you excellent advice here. I especially like Threeve’s summation. I have a dynamic like this with a co-worker (though he started 4 months prior to my start and decided he was the de-facto lead and therefore, took the work he wanted to do first and was the permission granter on whether or not I was allowed to tackle work I wanted to be pro-active on). When bringing it up to my PM, I said, “Everytime new work comes in, it’s like the Cornucopia scene from The Hunger Games and it’s exhausting.” Ultimately I ceded to him because he was the loudest voice in the room so management backed him in his assessment that he was in charge and I got tired of the fight but now I’m looking to move on. You have seniority here. Sounds like you’re very respectful of your new co-worker and the skills and talents they bring to the job but they’re not being very respectful in return. Stand your ground! You’ve earned it.

  94. Mimmy*

    I started my classes this week…ahh what the heck did I get myself into??? I’m taking two online courses plus working 3 days a week – although I let myself get talked into working an extra day this coming week. My supervisor thinks I’m nuts* for doing two classes right out the gate but I’ve been through an online program with this same school before so it’s not new. Plus, one of the courses I’m taking is a “special topics” course, meaning it’s not something that’s regularly offered. When the advisor told me about this, I jumped on the chance because it’s something I’ve been wanting to learn (grant writing) and it’s the most comprehensive course I’ve had in this topic.

    I’m excited but recognize that I’m putting a LOT on my plate. There will definitely be plenty of highs and lows, but I am so ready for this. Some positive vibes would be appreciated though! Tips would help too.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just remember it’s one bite at a time! You can do it.

      What we see laying out in front of us can seem endless and like you’re going to struggle to navigate but once you start the classes, things will start clicking in place for you.

      Just something to help you try to reframe what probably feels like the never-ending desert in front of you right now.

    2. Allypopx*

      I’m currently working 40+ hours, 5 days a week, and taking 5 classes. That’s in NO way meant to be competitive or downplay what’s on your plate – everyone’s circumstances are different. I just mean to say it’s doable, and it’s stressful, and there are times that you’ll absolutely hate it…and you’ll still get a lot out of it and it will bring you closer to your goals. You got this.

      I would have jumped on a grant writing course too! I’m jealous!

      As far as tips…keep a calendar, at least a monthly layout one, so that you can see when you have a bunch of deadlines that are going to run into each other and you can plan. Make sure to schedule yourself some downtime. Try not to procrastinate too much. Focus on eating healthy and drinking a lot of water – that sounds like a cliche but it’s easy to fall into the habit of eating like crap, and you’ll do better if you feel better.

    3. Holy Moley*

      Yay! You can do it! Just manage your time wisely. Treat your coursework almost like a job and set aside certain times to work on your coursework. Map our your big assignments and see how much extra time you might need.

    4. JustaTech*

      Many positive vibes!

      My only tip is to hand off as many household chores as you possibly can, even if that means eating a lot of frozen dinners.

  95. So Not The Boss Of Me*

    I want to thank the commenters from last week’s post about the manager hazing people by forcing them to sing at a company dinner. Your song choices were excellent. I enjoyed immensely the idea of getting up and loudly singing “Sixteen Tons” in my reedy, old-lady voice.
    Then I decided “Take This Job and Shove It” is better. I imagine myself really belting that one out (even worse because I don’t know the tune). I change some of the words to apply to the manager instead of the wife and at the end I do a mic drop and walk out. Then on Monday I go into work and turn in my badge. Because somebody has to, and I am just that kind of rebel.
    Again, thanks for the laughs.

  96. Alice*

    The leader of my division has a conflict of interest. I believe that things are probably being handled appropriately through recusals. I learned about it by chance, but it’s public information, announced on the website of their organization (not gossip or hearsay or, strictly speaking, secret).
    When I first learned about this conflict, I asked my manager about it. Eventually I was told, “leader realizes that it would be better to be open about this conflict and is going to address it with our community.” That was five months ago, and crickets. I don’t want to follow up because I already stuck my neck out bringing it to my boss’s attention.
    Trying to give a little more background without identifying us – the division this person leads has a budget of 200 million/year. The conflict is a non-executive director role with one of our vendors. We are a non-profit; the vendor is not.
    Do you think I’m crazy to want more disclosure?
    Do you think there’s any other step I can take?

    1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      As someone who has done the same thing, there is nothing else you can do. If you think that you, personally, are at risk then you can figure out how to remove yourself from the risk. Otherwise, you’ve expressed your concern to your boss and they’ve given you a response, whether or not they believe in it. Unless you can prove the conflict of interest is not recorded elsewhere, there isn’t a policy to address this, the Board isn’t aware of it, and that any engagement between your ED and the vendor has resulted in favorable pricing or preferred contracts, you’ve taken the first (and best step) in asking your immediate boss.

      Does your org have a policy on whistleblowing and have you read it to know what your next step could be?

      I’m in non-profit, too. I brought up several instances of inappropriate or conflict of interest to our ED, who was new in the role and probably didn’t know the implications of the issues.
      – Several times she’s taken my advice and made changes re: mishandling of donations
      – one time she did not: our auditor and their donation resolved itself
      – the final time I left because the potential financial/liability/IRS risk would involve me although I would not be liable for the problem. They hired a contractor but it was not an appropriate contract relationship and I would be responsible for the contractor, who would work in our office and I would be training/overseeing their work; and they’d have access to personal/identifying information of donors, students and personnel.

      Although I addressed the issues as they occurred with the ED, I felt that the organization was at risk due to other issues so I wrote to the Board President who received it but never followed up with me about the issues. To date, I have no idea what has occured.

      1. Alice*

        It’s not a matter of whistleblowing per se — there’s nothing illegal going on if the leader is actually recused, and I don’t have any reason to doubt that. And certainly any compliance risk that could hypothetically exist does not fall on me. So I suppose I will sit tight. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

    2. CL Cox*

      I’m confused on what you want to accomplish here. You said that you think the conflict is being resolved via recusals, what else do you think should be done? From my understanding of conflicts, they are in compliance with federal requirements – they have made both entities aware of the conflict and have implemented a resolution that is compliant and apparently satisfactory to both the non profit and the vendor. They have also made it public knowledge by posting it on their website, I would assume they have filed all the required disclosure paperwork. He has, in effect, removed the conflict of interest.

      I think that maybe you think he should make this information more public. Unless your nonprofit’s bylaws specifically state that he is obligated to make a public statement, notifying the boards of both entities and taking steps to negate the conflict is sufficient. And it is most likely that lawyers on both sides advised against doing more than the minimum of notices. Unless you have specific proof that he is profiting off this connection, you have no interest in his outside activities. There is no whistle to blow here.

      1. Alice*

        You’re right that I think he should make this information more public — not because of any legal requirement but because I think that it would be a good thing to explain to our community how the recusal works — who is making decisions in the leader’s stead? — and why the leader thinks it furthers our mission to serve on that vendor’s board (representing the interests of our profession in the room where decisions are made would be one rationale). Not a legally required thing, but a good thing.

        1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

          But from your vantage point you do not have the full scope of their decision-making process and the implications for the decisions that they’re making. You’re not aware of the conversations that have taken place behind closed doors and in front of closed doors to this point.

          What you’re suggesting is the right thing for you but it may not be the right thing for either the communities, it may not be the right timing, and there may be other work being done to deal with this.

          Right now you need to sit tight and let it play out and if it doesn’t directly affect you or your job then you’ve done all you can do.

          1. Alice*

            I suppose I am going to sit tight and let it play out. You’re right that I don’t know everything that’s going on. I certainly have lost a lot of respect for the leader involved, fair or not.

  97. Fabulous*

    I FINALLY GOT MY RAISE!!! It’s been 1.5 years and 2.5 bosses in the making, but it’s finally done!

    I’d originally asked for 20% from my first boss, but it was put on hold due to company restructuring and layoffs. Six months later she left the company and my grandboss was able to get me 5%, which was great, but not what I asked for (nor deserved). My new boss came onboard a while later, and after a 6-month “introductory” period, she agreed that my pay was way out of line with what I deserved, so I put together a new ask of 30% based on salary research. I definitely knew I wouldn’t get that high of a raise, but I knew to ask for more than I wanted this time!

    This week I finally got an answer :)

    Backdating to the start of the current pay period, my pay reflects an increase of 10%!! Come the end of the fiscal year, I’ll be bumped up another 4%, and then another 4% at the end of the first quarter – totaling an almost 19% increase! #celebration #millennialwin #finallycatchingup #50k

  98. Dezzi*

    Question: if an employee experiences workplace sexual harassment and starts having mental health issues (including massive panic attacks) that are impairing their ability to function as a result, is it reasonable to ask for worker’s comp to cover treatment/lost time? For anyone who remembers my comments on previous open threads, I supervise an employee who was being harassed pretty badly by an employee on a team she was working with. She’s been moved to another team, and is doing well there…except she’s started having panic attacks. These aren’t helped by the fact that she has to come back to the campus where the Creep works several times a month for meetings and trainings, and she’s terrified of running into him. We explained to her that he’s been told in no uncertain terms not to approach or contact her in any way; we’ve also arranged for her to park right in front of the building where her meetings are, and either I or my boss will walk her to and from her car any time she’s here.

    She’s still talking about leaving as a result of what happened, or taking FMLA so she has some time to “get herself together.” I’ve already referred her to our EAP, and told her that I will absolutely support her if she and her doctor decide she needs to take some time off. My question: if she does end up needing time off, or needing more treatment than the ten free counseling session our EAP covers, should she be asking to get that covered under Worker’s Comp since it’s an illness occurring as a result of something that happened at work? I haven’t brought that up with her yet, since I have no idea how that would work/if it’s even a reasonable thing to ask for…I just don’t think it’s fair for her to have to take unpaid leave as a result of our failure to protect her from harassment, you know? Anyone have thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      A quick Google leads me to say that this is a finely legally parsed issue and it depends on the state. I’d check with your legal team if you’ve got one.

      “Psychological and stress injuries arising out of sexual harassment at the workplace may be considered compensable in Delaware, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin, according to data from the National Workers Compensation Defense Network, an organization comprised of workers compensation defense firms in 47 states. But states have different evidentiary thresholds for such injuries.” From businessinsurance dot com.

      1. Dezzi*

        Thanks :) Our state isn’t on that list, unfortunately, but I’m hoping we can work something out if the EAP and the steps we’ve taken to address her fear of running into him aren’t enough to help her here. This whole situation sucks so much, ugh.

          1. Dezzi*

            I would love to know the answer to that! Unfortunately, I have literally zero say in that decision, nor any standing to question it. All I *can* do right now is focus on supporting my staff, so I’m trying to provide her as much support as I can. She’s an absolute rockstar employee, and her transfer to another site (which had actually been planned before this happened, this just made it happen sooner) is an awesome opportunity for her and I can’t wait to see what she does with it :)

    2. Anongineer*

      Just a question that can’t really help you – why is he still there? If he’s harassed someone to the point of panic attacks and trauma, that seems like a really good reason to fire someone.

      1. Dezzi*

        You’d think so, right?? I have no idea why he’s still here. And yes, I’m SUPER ANGRY about that.

        “Luckily,” with my employee having been transferred to the other team, all the people he supervises and works with on a regular basis now are male and that isn’t going to change. (I know that sounds bad, but please trust me it’s a completely valid and normal thing & has absolutely nothing to do with sexism; I can’t really explain further without anonymity concerns.) The fact that he won’t have the opportunity to do this again is a small consolation, but I’m still lying in bed worrying and seething about this whole thing more nights than I’d like to admit.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          1) ‘now’ does not guarantee ‘forever’
          2) What makes anyone think he’d limit this behavior to his direct reports?

          1. Dezzi*

            Unfortunately, I have absolutely no say whatsoever in the decision about whether or not to fire him. And no one thinks he would limit this to direct reports–my staff didn’t report to him at all. But he literally doesn’t have access to any female employees who aren’t at least two levels above him right now, and due to the nature of this worksite, that’s not going to change (my staff being there was an anomaly).

            I’m not happy about it. The entire situation blows. But there’s nothing I can do about him, so I’m focusing on what I can do to support her.

            1. Easily Amused*

              One has to wonder, though, if continuing his employment is, in a way, continuing her harassment. Her panic attacks are stemming from the possibility that she will still encounter his presence in the normal duties of her job. She clearly does not feel safe at work. Also, I’m sorry for her and for you. You sound like a wonderful manager.

    3. Kathenus*

      Whether this can be workman’s comp where you are or not, continuing to actively and vocally support her, including letting her know that you will support FMLA if she chooses to pursue it, are good steps.

    4. blackcat*

      You outright state the company failed to protect her from harassment. Which is no. good. from a legal perspective.

      She ought to consult with a lawyer, frankly.

      You need to find a way to 1) make sure the guy gets fired and 2) provide her with sufficient paid leave.

      If she lawyers up, it should not be hard for her to get a legal settlement providing her with extra paid leave as well as the costs of additional therapy covered.

      If you run into resistance with higher up folks, point out that right now, she has a good legal case against you because she’s suffering ongoing medical issues as a result of workplace harassment that you have admitted was not handled quickly enough. Encourage them to make it right to discourage her from suing.

      1. Dezzi*

        In my opinion, any time someone experiences harassment of any kind at work, it means we failed. And in this case, I think we massively failed to do our due diligence in hiring this guy. I failed as her manager, because I didn’t know this was happening until she told me, months after it had started. It’s a spectacular failure on our part that she didn’t tell anyone about it for months because she really believed it was some kind of reflection on her & we’d think she “couldn’t handle the job.” (Which, obviously, it wasn’t, and she was immediately told so by everyone involved.)

        Does it meet the legal definition of failing to protect her from harassment? No. HR took immediate & legally appropriate actions to protect her as soon as she they found out what was happening. Also, lawyering up would require talking about what happened in full detail, probably several times, which she’s categorically unwilling to do.

        But the fact that she can’t sue for failure to protect her from harassment doesn’t mean we didn’t fail her at multiple points.

        1. Dezzi*

          “as soon as they found out what was happening,” oops. Typing too fast = trying to write two things at once and making mistakes :P

          1. Dezzi*

            I’m trying to decide whether any of our policies prohibit me from filling his office with rabid weasels? I feel like that might be a fun exercise.

  99. 28dogs*

    I started my new job this week!!
    It’s my third job in as many years which I… don’t feel great about to be honest, but it already feels like an amazing fit as far as work style, the work itself, and the broader company culture. We had a CEO meeting yesterday that was… actually fine? He was succinct and easy to understand? Did not know that was possible.

    A huge thanks to Ask a Manager + the commentariat for being an amazing resource while job hunting and will continue to be as I become a manager for the first time :)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Some times we find ourselves in this situation [3 jobs in 3 years]! But my 3rd job was the one that was really “the one” and I’ll be here until they don’t want me or unless my life yanks me into a different direction [naturally, since life does what it wants a lot of times!]

      I hope this one is your landing pad for awhile to shake off that vagabond feeling that can happen when you’re changing jobs frequently.

  100. Spooncake*

    An update on my “how do I tell my boss I’m apparently collecting illnesses now” situation from a couple of weeks ago:

    I took everyone’s advice and kept things brief, saying that I might need a few extra sick and/or WFH days for a while “due to a change in meds” (technically true, since I’m on new ones) and not to worry as hopefully this would be relatively short-term. It went really well- my manager’s response was to say that it was all fine, and that it was up to me to decide how much or little I wanted to share about it. To be honest, if I do end up needing to ask for further accommodations due to the ongoing stuff I would feel more comfortable sharing more than the bare minimum, knowing that it’s all totally under my control. So that’s worked out great! Thanks to everyone who responded, the phrasing people suggested was super helpful.

  101. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Closed the year out and now I’m staring at 4 email inboxes that need to be sorted [I’ve been keeping up with it but haven’t been filing away like usual.] So much clutter…so here I am procrastinating [feeling blessed that I can now procrastinate instead of having my tail-feathers to the flame like the last 4 weeks. Sigh.

  102. Shhhh*

    Relatively low-stakes question here – one of my coworkers is retiring this spring. Yay for him, sad for us. I’m going to miss him and he’s been great to work with.

    I’d like to ask my manager if I can switch from my current office to his office when he leaves, but I’m not sure how to approach it.

    Some background – I work in a department of less than 10 including my manager, who the rest of us all report to. We all have offices that are roughly the same size (except for our manager, whose is bigger) in the same office suite. I’m the most junior member of the team in that I’ve been here less than a year. To my knowledge, when someone leaves, the person who is hired to fill their position is assigned their office. My predecessor had also been the most junior member of the team when she started, and her position had also been new at the time. Her/my office was/is a converted conference room. Again, it’s roughly the same size as my coworkers’ offices, just long and narrow rather than a more square shape. It also doesn’t have windows whereas the rest of my coworkers’ offices do.

    I could write out a whole long thing about why I want to switch offices, but to be honest, I just want a window. Like I said, super low stakes.

    What I’m thinking is I’ll wait to hear for sure that his position will be filled and then casually ask if I can have his office, which would put his replacement in mine. My reasoning for waiting is that there are probably people who aren’t in our department but are above me in seniority who could theoretically be moved into our space if they don’t fill his position, though that’s unlikely. Plus I’m still pretty new and don’t want to be like “Oh, Bob’s retiring? Give me his office!!1!” especially since we’re probably pretty lucky to even have private offices. On that note, I know that all of this could change down the road and it might not even matter a year from now (though hopefully that won’t be the case).

    All that said, anyone have any tips? I mean besides to stop overthinking it, which I’m clearly doing.

    1. That would be a good band name*

      If everyone but you has a window, then no hesitation. I’d ask regardless of whether your coworker is getting replaced. Just start with I understand if there are already plans for Bob’s office, but I’d really like to move into his since it has a window. Honestly, a LOT of people feel strongly about windows in offices. To the point where I get a lot of flack for keeping my blinds closed when a windowless person happens to come to my office. (I have migraines and would gladly give up my window due to light sensitivity but I can’t separate from my department.)

    3. Ama*

      I’d go ahead and ask, you can do it casually, “hey obviously this is nothing that needs to happen right now but when Bob retires I’d love to switch into his office if that would be an option.”

      If your boss really prefers to put someone else in there they can just say so, but if you don’t ask now either someone else might or they might make a plan for that office that they wouldn’t make if they knew you wanted it.

    4. Daisy-dog*

      My company has a mix of cubicles & offices. We’ve been shuffling everyone around as we grow and people are constantly moving into this one particular cubicle that is near a window. Before someone even fully moves out, the next person is already setting up their name plate to ensure everyone knows that window seat is taken!

      People understand the window-request. Just ask and you’ll likely be rewarded. If not, at least you tried.

    5. EnfysNest*

      Definitely ask! If you think there’s a chance someone else who already has a window might still want Bob’s office, you could phrase it as “Will anyone be moving offices when Bob retires? I’d love to move into an office with a window if one opens up.” That way, if Nancy (someone else more senior than you who already has a window in her existing office) is interested in Bob’s office for some reason, it won’t come off like you’re trying to jump in line ahead of someone more senior, if you’re worried about that (although I don’t think it’s too much of a concern anyway) – then you could just move into Nancy’s office once she takes Bob’s.

      I would bring it up *before* they do interviews for Bob’s replacement, though, in case part of the interview is walking through the office, where someone might say “this would be your office if you get the position” or something like that where it would be harder to take it back after the fact.

  103. Book Pony*

    So for my interview, it asks me to submit, let’s say, llama posters. I’ve never made those before.

    Would it be bad if I made some? It said “examples of llama posters you’ve made” and that technically counts. They’ll review them at the interview, so should I say I made them for the interview then?

    Llamas are unrelated to my job completely and I couldn’t make posters about my job for reasons.

    I’m also still having communication problems with my boss, but maybe that’ll be resolved today. Hopefully.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s okay to do them if you think you have the skill level to make them professional. I’d include a note in the submission that they were made for the occasion (or are unpublished, if they’re writing samples); you could just say something like “Sample llama posters based on TeaOrg’s template” and that would make it clear they’re created for the occasion in a short phrase.

      1. Book Pony*

        I’m using templates from Canva, so they’ll look good. So I should say “llama posters made using canva templates? “

        1. fposte*

          No; what I was going for was phraseology that made it clear these were simulations, not real posters you’ve done for a workplace (since plenty of workplaces will use Canva); you really don’t want people to feel misled about that. I’m not immediately coming up with a neat phrase that would substitute–are you drawing on specifics about the organization for your fictional posters? That might make it clearer.

          2. Book Pony*

            No, I’m using stuff like, “benefits of llama herding”. The organization just frequently makes posters about say, learning to read.

  104. Environmental Compliance*

    A recruiter contacted me about a really cool EHS position at a very neat facility that is much, much more green based than where I am now. I am trying to not get too excited about it. Wish me luck!

  105. Distance vs pay*

    Has anyone here taken a pay cut to greatly improve your commute? I currently drive 1.5 hours per day (45 min one way) and if I get offered the job I interviewed for, it’s FOUR minutes from my house to the parking lot. I just keep thinking I’m going to regret going backwards in pay. It would be approximately a 10k cut, which I can do, I just don’t know that I’ll want to do it even though I’ll get back so much time that I currently waste in my car.

    1. Turtlewings*

      You’ll get a certain amount back in gas costs and car wear & tear, too! I can’t tell you whether you, in particular, will be able to adjust to the pay drop enough to be worth it, but I can tell you that in your place, I would definitely be considering the commute a MAJOR selling point.

      1. Bananatiel*

        If distance vs pay keeps any kind of budget you can calculate out the savings in terms of gas, wear & tear, too. If I were to cut all driving from my current long commute and were able to walk I’d probably save $1,000/yr in gas alone.

    2. Art3mis*

      I did, but the commute wasn’t that big of a difference and the pay cut wasn’t quite that much. I had a lot of other reasons for wanting to leave and accepting a pay cut for it, the commute was just gravy, really. Money isn’t everything, but it’s also really hard to recover from a pay cut that large. Is it less responsibility, a totally different role, or are they just really paying under market?

      1. Distance vs pay*

        It’s going to be less responsibility. The job listing said coordinator of two functions. Think llama grooming and petting coordinator where groomers would be paid more than those doing the petting. It turns out that they really need a full-time person in petting, but the groomers need once a week help. At my current job I do the higher level function (of the two listed) and only occasionally help with the lower-level function since getting promoted in 2018.

    3. CatCat*

      I have not, but I absolutely would. I hate commuting with the fire of 10,000 suns.

      There’s an exercise in the book “Your Money or Your Life” that talks about calculating your “real hourly wage” that might also be helpful for some perspective. This has you take your pay then calculate in ALL the costs of doing your job, including your time and money spent commuting, to find out what you are really earning to go to that job. They have a calculator for this exercise I’ll link to in a comment.

      It’s a $10k cut on paper, but what is it *really* when you factor in the cost of that commute?

      2. blackcat*

        Yep.
        Let’s say you work roughly 200 days per year total (that’s low, but I’m going for a minimum estimation). You’re gaining back roughly 1.25 hours per day
        That’s 250 hours over the course of the year. Think about what 250-300 hours per year means to you, both in dollars but quality of life. Then throw in the mileage rate from the IRS (~.50 a mile, right?)

        It may be that your effective hourly earnings stay the same!

    4. AcadLibrarian*

      My commute is 3 hours roundtrip. My old boss offered me a job at my old place of employment but it was a $20k drop. NOPE, NOPE, NOPE.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Not a pay cut, but I took a sharp rent increase (from ~$900 to ~$1300) to reduce my commute from 45 to 10 min — so, same net effect, my income for other purposes dropped noticeably — and I would absolutely 100% do it again. The gas cost, the wear & tear on my car, the mental impact of all that time spent on the road — all of those things offset the hit to my finances. The difference you’re describing, about double both the financial hit and the commute, I’d say is probably still worth it. Commuting is hell, and ime you don’t realize just how grueling it is until you’re free of it.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Er, not double the time savings, I misread your commute numbers, but STILL. That’s definitely not a calculation to take lightly, but the time and ease are amazing benefits.

    6. Blueberry*

      You could calculate if 1.5 hours per day x your current pay = 10K , for a rough comparison. Or put together your budget under the lower pay to see what you’ll have to give up.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      $10k is a lot, even if you can afford it. Plus, it’s a step back should you decide to leave unless you’re seeing some upward momentum in a year or two. Have you tried all options at your current job to WFH a few days?
      Only you can decide what’s worth it, but I wouldn’t make it solely about the commute. Is it an industry and role you’d like?

      I did an interview like this recently, and it would have been nearly a 30k cut! Nope! But $10k could go either/or depending.

    9. Senor Montoya*

      10k drop can also affect your retirement savings — what’s the difference in retirement benefit at the two jobs? Does the new employer give a better contribution? What’s the medical benefit at each employer? For instance, at my current employer (large state university) my premium is under $100/month. That’s worth thousands of dollars annually.

      Calculate out the value of benefits for each job.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is a really good point. If the $10k is specifically salary, what are you gaining or losing in benefits, savings options, and the rest of the compensation package.

        Also, I think it’s a percentage thing. If it’s a small enough cut percentage wise and you can regain the salary dip in a year or two of decent raises, that’s a lot more reasonable than a dip that would take 5+ years to make up, or could never happen at the new place.

  106. Bend & Snap*

    I was totally blindsided by getting laid off this week. I’m a single parent and I’m terrified.

    1. Book Lover*

      I am so sorry. I think step one is figure out how to apply for unemployment benefits and look into other benefits you may be able to apply for also. Email everyone you know/your connections and let them know that you are interested in hearing about any opportunities out there. I hope you get something new and better soon.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I hope your UI claim goes through smoothly, most do when it comes to layoffs, so I hope that helps. It’s only normal to feel so shocked and scared, I’m so sorry that this happened to you.

      I hope we hear back shortly that you’ve been snapped up for a position. Everyone I’ve known who has been laid off has not been out of work that long. I know that depends heavily on your position and your skill set, along with your region.

    3. Blueberry*

      All good luck! Can you enlist your child/ren to help in various age-appropriate ways that give them the sense they are contributing and which take bits of work off your plate? (More chores, cooking, things like that.) I’m sending you all my good vibes!

  107. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I am on vacation but decided to check my work email this morning. Learned that a project I did, that we got because of MY connections, is being presented at a big conference! All this after my boss was super negative about it and treated it like a small one-off. We were also recommended to someone super important in the industry for further work. I feel SO good right now.

    I also got an interview request for a big association in my industry, so I’m stoked. Nice vacation, huh?

  108. Anon4ThisQuestion*

    Question for the Pro’s here-
    I’ve got a person who has serious anger management issues. They (using gender neutral they on purpose here) take everything personally and as responds to the slightest redirection or negative feedback from people they perceive as being on the same level or below them (particularly women). Observed responses include snapping at people, clenching fists, displaying anger on their face, and storming off or slamming the phone. They also give people the silent treatment, for weeks or months at at time. Their boss is not a good manager, and backs down in conflict- but this person also doesn’t do this to the boss. The boss seems afraid to rock the boat because this person oversees large areas of the organization and are key to a project currently underway; boss is afraid the employee will walk, but not addressing this opens us up to larger problems. We’re headed towards intimidation and bullying here, hostile work environment scenarios, and so on. I need assistance in laying out exactly why this is a problem that cannot just be left to ‘work itself out’ or ‘handled in one conversation with the employee’. Working with a jerk is just bad luck, but this seems beyond that. Help me craft the right words for both the manager and the employee please?

    1. fposte*

      “Do you know how much a freaking lawsuit would cost us?”

      I mean, realistically the boss’s fears are justified; Mx. Anger Problems isn’t likely to flip a switch and start treating women well, so it’s quite likely this will mean progressive discipline leading to either firing or a rage-quit. I’m not sure who you are in this and what kind of leverage or options you can offer; if you’re a grandboss, I’d force the boss’s hand; if you’re in HR, you might not have that kind of power, and with an avoidant manager who’s not on the same page, there’s a high chance of failure. Can you at least provide the problem employee with anger management coaching as a semi-carrot?

      1. Anon4ThisQuestion*

        I’m on the same level as the person with anger management issues, have the same supervisor, and don’t have a lot of leverage despite begin HR. I’m struggling with that part too, to be honest, as I used to have a lot of leverage and respect in my organization, but now am sidelined by this (new) supervisor. My prior supervisor would have at least discussed my recommendations and concerns, this one thinks they know better…. and all my alarm bells are going off here.

        1. Kathenus*

          Make sure that your conversations with new supervisor on this are documented in writing, so if something does happen you have a written/email record of your concerns and recommendations that something be done.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Can you take this to the level above your supervisor? First I think you would have to have a conversation with your shared supervisor just to have that on record. But the behavior you’re describing would make most people uncomfortable and I think it’s reasonable to want to address.

          There was someone like that in my old group- I never saw it first hand, but I do know that person was somewhat protected for similar “key person” reasons. Even so, it eventually got to the point where they were required by HR to have anger management training, at least twice, and then were strongly encouraged to retire, which they finally did. I think what forced management’s hand was that after years of this behavior almost no one (and definitely no women) would work with this person and were very clear on why.

    2. EnfysNest*

      Another angle you can point out is that you are likely to lose other employees if Angry!Employee is kept on. They will cause / are causing a drop in morale among other employees and likely making them afraid at work, which is a situation they will not be willing to maintain. If the company shows that they aren’t going to stop Angry!Employee immediately or fire them, then other employees will almost certainly be looking to leave as soon as possible to get away from them.

    3. Anon4ThisQuestion*

      Dear everyone-
      I appreciate the validation that this is a big deal, and the time you each took to give some advice and feedback. I’m feeling more confident going in to talk to the new boss today about it, and will raise it to the next level person (the head of the company) if needed.

      I have documented every concern thoroughly, including the conversations with the new boss. I’m covering my own rear here too.

  109. Sick of City A*

    I’m in consulting and I’m considering going to another firm. I was at a conference this week and managed to stop by a competitor’s table to say hi and introduce myself. One of the people I spoke with was really interested in the fact that I have a strong personal relationship with a key person at City A and that I’ve been working with the City for over 10 years. I got the impression that they are trying hard to get work with City A. Part of the reason that I want to switch firms is to get into a different technical area and stop working with City A. So, if I get an interview, how do I tell if they are hiring me for my contacts or because of the role I’m interested in transitioning to? Any way I can give a heads up to the client manager responsible for City A at my current company without giving away the fact that I’m job hunting?

  110. ALM2019*

    I’m trying to figure out if I’m being high maintenance or if my coworker (Bob) is being inconsiderate. I work in a Project Management support role. Bob is the PM I support. Bob is very high strung, the smallest issue results in hours of discussion, usually him becoming angry, screaming, pounding his fists. He also likes to discuss every outcome of what could happen because of an issue instead of addressing the issue itself. All of this results in hours of back to back meetings, some days we’re in meetings from 9:00 AM to 2:00 PM, usually they are just Bob talking out his thoughts or what he thinks will fail. I struggle with being in meetings for this long – I find that if I don’t eat every few hours I become lethargic, dizzy, and its a migraine trigger for me. I also am a normal person who needs restroom breaks. I’ve tried blocking off 15 to 30 minutes on my calendar and Bob will make comments like “well I want to meet about this but Jane thinks she needs a break!” Nothing we do is so time sensitive that it can’t wait 30 minutes, frankly some of it can wait days. Its also common practice at our company to take WFH days. Every time I schedule a WFH day Bob will say throughout the week “But your WFH Thursday, so I’ll have to have you call in. You won’t be face to face” He says it over and over again, usually in attempt to get me to cancel. Most recently when I was taking a planned vacation he asked me when my flight was to see if I could attend a meeting in the AM – even though I had the entire day scheduled off. Bob is not my manager, and my manager has no issues with my schedule or work. I know Bob is my BEC for many other reasons that aren’t listed here – any thoughts on how I can push back on some of this without involving my manager? She is dealing with larger issues so I’d like to handle this on my own.

    1. Manders*

      This is SO weird. You’re not being high maintenance at all, this is so far outside the bounds of normal that you probably should rope your manager in at this point.

      How on earth is anything getting done on this project if Bob spends most days just rambling and getting worked up?

      1. valentine*

        If you’re not allowed to decline or to leave useless meetings,or even if you are, you’d do well to let your manager know how much of your time this dude’s wasting and that you’re going to push back, so that she doesn’t hear it first from him.

    2. Havarti*

      This is like the AAM version of Reddit’s AITA (Am I the A$$****?). No, you are not the problem here. What would happen if you said in the middle of a 5 hour meeting (FIVE! HOURS!), “Hey, I need to take a break/get lunch/do something else. Let’s reconvene at [TIME].” and then just leave the room? I do think you will likely need to talk to your manager though. None of this is an effective use of your time. You either stop listening to Bob’s passive-aggressive BS and just leave the room when you’ve had enough or you talk to your boss.

    4. Colette*

      Can you be less available for meetings? I.e.. “I can meet from 9 – 10 but I have a hard stop at 10”, “I need to stop for lunch at noon”, “I can’t meet today but I am available tomorrow from 1 – 3”, etc.

      And if he starts screaming and pounding his fists “This is not acceptable behavior. I’m leaving.” and then get up and leave.

      But I would seriously consider looping your manager into this, so that you know that (or if) she has your back to set limits, and because someone being violent at work is not OK.

    5. ThatGirl*

      Try cheerfully agreeing with him. “yep, I need a break to use the restroom and have a drink of water! Don’t you?” Or “yep, I know I need to call in! don’t worry!” And then if he keeps up “yep, we talked about this!”

      Anyway, you’re definitely not high maintenance, he sounds like a huge jerk.

    7. CM*

      It definitely sounds like a Bob problem, and not a you problem. I think it will be easier to deal with if you can get yourself in a mental space where you don’t care how Bob judges you, because you don’t respect his opinion on that. So, just take your breaks when you want to, take your WFH, take your flight and cheerfully say, “I definitely can’t take a phone call that day, because it’s booked as vacation.”

      If Bob gets verbally abusive with you in response, it’s up to you how you want to handle it. You might set a boundary that you won’t stay in the room with him if he’s yelling, or you might be fine listening to it if you sincerely don’t care, or you might yell back — there’s not a right answer. However you approach it, I think the important thing is to understand that him getting mad is not, in itself, evidence that you’ve done something wrong.

  111. aristanae*

    I’ve been an marketing intern at a ophthalmic company since September 2019, my colleagues are all very friendly and loving. Recently a financial analyst joined, let’s name him M. I’ve never really spoken to M often as we are from two different departments even though our seats are right behind each other.
    Last week was my last week as their intern as they are hiring me on contract in the financial department, meaning I’ll have to sit beside M and work with him. However, about 3 weeks back, my marketing colleagues have been constantly shoving M’s name into my face when we go out to eat, even making sick jokes about me sitting on his lap when I get hired as a contract staff and that I should consider him. At first I thought it was a joke, so I brushed it off, but my friend and I realised that they kept on talking about M to me, as if they really wanted me to consider him, even to the extent of playing a game where they didn’t want to let me end it until I chose to marry M.
    To make matters worse, I found out from some of my colleagues in operations that rumours have been going around that I like M. How could that happen when I wasn’t the one who asked about him, talked about him. I never once mentioned him to any of my colleagues. But all of a sudden they want to match make us, and now people are gossiping that I like him?
    Do you have any reasons as to what’s going on? My intern friend says there’s a possibility that M is interested in me that’s why all these are happening. I highly doubt so. I’m afraid that this will affect my working relationship with him when I start my contract in March.

    1. wtf?*

      whoa.This has to stop. Shut this down. Let your supervisor know.
      Language- Speak directly to each individual. This is not funny, this is not amusing. This is unprofessional. This behavior/talk about me is unacceptable. I take responsibility for letting it go on this long. This is not a discussion.
      If the “teasing” happens in a group. Put your hand up. Stop. Say, ” I have spoken to you about this. Is it time to put it in writing and name names and email HR?

    2. fposte*

      This comes up periodically; I think it’s just a fandom-like response a group of people can get into in real life and forget that it impacts actual humans. I think you should very clearly shut this down. “My interest in all of you, M included, is strictly professional, and this joke about M is starting to make it hard to do my work. It’s gone on long enough; please stop it now and don’t talk to me about M again.” If they protest or double down, just repeat “Please stop it now” until they’re bored.

    3. Fibchopkin*

      So, normally I cringe when I hear people sounding off with the “it’s because of your age!” cry, but in this case, I do strongly suspect that this is s function of your and your peers’ youth and experience levels. This kind of behavior is textbook teenage group behavior. The best way to shut it down is to be very direct and clear. Don’t just say “I don’t think he likes me. Stop it you guuuuyyyyyssss!” (which isn’t to say that your behavior is inappropriate, it’s not! It just takes experience to handle this kind of thing in a professional manner) Instead, say very clearly “I am not interested in mixing personal romance with work. I don’t have romantic feelings for any of our colleagues, and I want you to stop talking about this right now.”

      1. Fibchopkin*

        And then, as other commenters have said, if they try to start it up again, very clearly tell them to stop, and that if they continue, you will need to speak your supervisor/HR about the problem.

        1. valentine*

          Did I say that i’m 19 and M is 32??
          That makes this extra gross. The perps are older than you as well, yeah? I would reconsider the contract and report them to my manager and HR. It was all awful, but the lap-sitting comment and marriage game went way, way, way, over the line.

          1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

            Why is it extra gross? It’s gross what they’re doing, yes, but plenty of adults have 13 year age gaps or more. If M was 20, it’d be no less gross.

        2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          Why is it extra gross? It’s gross what they’re doing, yes, but plenty of adults have 13 year age gaps or more. If M was 20, it’d be no less gross.

          1. Easily Amused*

            It’s extra gross because, while 19 is technically an adult, OP is also technically a teenager! I’m sorry your co-workers have put you in this position OP. This is not normal, professional workplace behavior. Talk to a manger or HR.

  112. Academic Promotion is the 8th circle of Hell*

    Still waiting on dossier review for Full . Rumor has it a decision will be communicated to me by the end of February. Maybe. Prayer, kind words, horror, absurd, or success stories welcome.

  113. ghosted*

    Had a recruiter reach out to me on linkedin. Totally ghosted after I replied. So, there’s that. Not actively looking, but annoying stuff at current job today includes being completely ignored/snubbed by coworkers & external vendors not doing their job. As Fridays go, it’s really not all that bad, but still…

    1. Anxious Annie*

      I had the same thing happen to me last month! And I work in an industry where people NEVER get recruited so even though I wasn’t actively looking I felt really excited and flattered. Then the flatline. I feel you, it sucks.

  114. Art3mis*

    Does anyone work (or have worked) in a Team Lead position in a office production type environment? As in call center, document/claims processing, or data entry? One is going to open up on my team and I’m being encouraged to apply for it. I just want to get some perspectives of other folks who are or have done it and get an idea of what I’m getting myself into. Other than from people who are doing the encouraging. :) Thanks!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m a team lead for a team of 26 medical coders, if that counts? They have production quotas they have to meet, at least.

      1. Art3mis*

        This would be the other side of that, we process medical claims. I’ve never been in even a remotely leadership type role and I worry that I’m lacking in people skills and will have difficulty dealing with people’s drama. I also worry that it seems like that role is somewhat supervisory but has no actual supervisory power to go with it.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I actually don’t mind the “no real power” part. If someone is doing great, I can tell them, and if they’re doing poorly, I tell the person who officially supervises and THEY get to deal with it. Heh. (Not so useful with a bad manager though.)

    2. foolofgrace*

      I was a word processing supervisor at a large law firm. The problem was that there was almost always a need for overtime people on the weekend, and if I couldn’t find anyone, I had to do it myself. Also, we all worked in the same room, and it was weird doing performance reviews and then having to sit next to the people. But I liked the autonomy and it was a good move for me.

    3. Chaordic One*

      I know this response is late, but I was hoping someone else could answer and explain it better than I would. The job has its challenges. You need to be a competent team manager and knowledgable about the field and about the kinds of situations your team members can run into, and obviously you are. Not all of your team members are going to be the sharpest tacks in box and dealing with that is probably the most frustrating part of the job.

      A good and competent team lead will be able to help their team members do their jobs and deal with the situations that arise, to help them help their customers. An exceptional team lead will be more of a coach and a mentor. She (or he) will help their team members learn how to do the research, figure out where to find the answers and be able solve the problems on their own. This takes more thought, effort and time in the short term, but pays off big time down the road.

  115. Tahani*

    Y’all… what’s wrong with me? I’ve been in my toxic job for over a year and I have an interview today and I’m just sad. I’m not excited about the job except for the prospect of getting out of my current job. I feel like everything I do is a mistake ever since I got my current job. This job I’m interviewing for is in data which I’ve never worked in but would be interested to get that under my belt. However, I guess it would be a lateral move or maybe downward from my current job. I’m about to turn 28, but I still feel this immense pressure from peers to keep moving up! Be a director at 30! Change the world! And I’m just out here trying to find a place that doesn’t make me feel like a worthless lump at the end of the day.

    I’m just afraid I’m going to end up in another toxic workplace, but I’m gonna ask a lot of questions at this interview. If this doesn’t work out, I guess I’ll stay, because I don’t want to bother my references again and I don’t know. My confidence is at an all time low. At least I know the bad stuff of my workplace.

    Has anyone felt this way about possibly leaving their toxic workplace? Or scared they won’t have the perfectly laid out career path?

    1. Nicki Name*

      It’s not you, it’s your toxic job messing with your head. Let your references know how badly you need to leave this job and keep looking!

    2. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

      Hi, you’re human! This is totally normal. I don’t have any advice, just want to show some solidarity. Also, are you clinically depressed? Or experiencing it from the job? That has an effect as well. Good luck, Tahani!

    3. Manders*

      Oof, I’ve been there. Toxic jobs can cause this weird mindset where you stop hoping things will get better, you just hunker down and learn to endure a bad situation. I found it really anxiety-inducing to job search when I was in that situation because I had so many doubts about my own worth and I was afraid of moving into a worse situation.

      What I ended up doing was turning my job search into a game. Every time my bad boss did X, Y, or Z, I sent out an application. It helped me to think of their bad behavior as points I was scoring against them, a sort of mental “Ah HAH, you’ve done that thing I hate, that’s another application tonight.” Spite can be an excellent motivator if all else fails.

    4. !*

      From your post I want to to absolutely stress NOT to compare yourself against your peers, and those who are pressuring you! You only need to care about what you want and want to achieve. That’s a lot of unnecessary stress for what result?

    5. Colette*

      When you’re in a bad environment, it’s really hard to job hunt, and it’s hard to be optimistic about … anything, really. Be kind to yourself.

      And I also think that moving up is fine, but it’s not a requirement. Doing a good job at something worthwhile is rewarding and important. One of the things you will hopefully learn over time is that there is no such thing as a perfectly laid out path in life – perfect varies by individual.

      Good luck at the interview! I hope you find a better place to be.

    6. Bananatiel*

      Heck, I left a toxic job a little under two years ago and happened to be near the old office yesterday and ran into two former coworkers. I was feeling nostalgic in the weirdest, most messed-up way and had to remind myself of how terrible it felt walking into that place every day for years! So, it’s a process and just know that you’ll be on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster recovering from this situation.

    7. windsofwinter*

      I wish I had more advice than solidarity. I am also 28 and I keenly feel the same pressure you do. I try to remind myself that life is a marathon, not a sprint. There are plenty of us in the same boat, it just doesn’t stand out as much as all the rock stars out there. My work history is all over the place because I am still figuring out exactly what it is I want to do. I don’t think many people have it figured out at this point, even if it seems that way.

    8. irene adler*

      “better the devil you know than the devil you don’t”

      Your references will understand if you need to use them for additional interviews after the one today. You are not asking your references to run 20 marathons or buy you a house. They are going to take phone call or email and answer questions about you. Maybe more than a few times- given not all interviews end up with job offers. They wouldn’t accept being a reference if they didn’t want to do this for you. Would you be okay if the situation were reversed and you were the reference? Yes, you would okay with this.

      You need a cheering section to bring up your spirits. Toxic Job has done a number on your head. It’s making you bring up all sorts of reasons to get down on your self. Example: ” be a director by age 30″ thinking. Another example: letting peer pressure dictate what your career should be like. Yet another example: not wanting to bother your references so that you can find an avenue out of Toxic Job.

      Can you step back, and figure out what it is YOU want to do career-wise. Not what peer pressure says you ‘should’ do or what everyone else expects you to accomplish. What is it that YOU want? You may need to clear your mind of the brain-fu!ck Toxic Job has done to you before you can sincerely answer this question for yourself. And this isn’t a two-minute conversation either.

      Nothing is going to be perfect with a new job. But you have the ability to weather things that aren’t 100% perfect. Proof: you are functioning in Toxic Job.

    9. Ama*

      Yup — when I interviewed for my current employer from my toxic workplace I had a total meltdown immediately before when I stopped at my then-boyfriend’s (his place was on the way and I didn’t want to put on my interview clothes at work because it would invite questions). “This job is just going to be another bait-and-switch and it will all be receptionist work because that’s all anyone thinks I’m good at.” (Note: not dissing receptionists, I was just very tired of being one myself.) “They aren’t going to think I’m qualified anyway.” “They’re probably only interviewing me because they can’t get anyone really good for the role.”

      Thankfully boyfriend was able to talk me down and get me into a better mindset before the interview (part of the reason I ended up marrying him). It actually turned out that the hiring manager thought I was possibly overqualified for the role and couldn’t believe their luck that someone with my experience was willing to work for the salary they offered (it was basically a lateral move salary wise but worth it to me because it was a sector switch). And seven years later, I’m still here making almost twice my original salary after two promotions, having found an employer that actually sees my value.

    10. Tahani*

      Thank you all for your solidarity and kind words. I just finished the interview and it went ok, still don’t feel great. Someone mentioned depression and I think that may be a factor—might have been brought on more because of my job. My thoughts used to be I need to get any job to get out of this, now it’s more, I need to take my time to find a good fit as demoralizing that can be. Anyways, thank you all again, you did make me feel better and less alone.

      1. irene adler*

        You need a big dose of self-care. A treat. Try to do something especially kind for yourself.

    11. Senor Montoya*

      You are not bothering your references! They know you’re searching, they expect to be called. Truly. Please try to take that worry from your mind

      Good luck with the search!

  116. Evie*

    How do you resign when you work in an open floor plan? We have cubicles, but basically everyone in my department can hear what you say unless you speak in the most hushed whisper. My boss & I don’t have check-ins or one-on-ones. Do I just ask her to come over with me to a conference room?

    1. Nicki Name*

      Do you have Slack or something similar? Can you direct-message them to say you’ve got something to talk about in private?

      1. Evie*

        Oh, that’s a good idea! We use Skype chat, perhaps I should ask her to meet me privately in a conference room.

    2. CSR by Day*

      In the past, I’ve left resignation letters for my bosses when I quit and couldn’t talk to them about it in front of everyone else. Nothing fancy and not with any complicated explanations. Just something along the lines of “another opportunity has popped up and I will be resigning from my job effective such-and-such a date, in two weeks or so,” and then I might just add something like, “thank you for the opportunity to work with you.”

  117. MsChanandlerBong*

    Can anyone recommend some practical books on managing/leading people and being a good manager overall? I’ve been promoted to team lead, and I feel like I’m in over my head. I’ve held leadership positions before, but they were in companies with a traditional hierarchical structure. My current company has a very flat structure; it’s also small, so everybody kind of pitches in and does whatever is needed. In some ways, it’s great, but it can also cause confusion because we aren’t necessarily using people based on their skills and aptitudes–we just need somebody to get Task X done. I also work from home, so I have to lead entirely by video conferencing, Slack, email, and phone calls.

    1. mreasy*

      I just read and loved Resilient Management. It’s built for product/software but I am not in that field and found it extremely valuable.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Thank you! That might actually help. I’m not in software, but my boss/our CEO started out as a developer, so he thinks in a very specific way. This might be helpful for working within our team environment.

  118. rosegrows*

    I negotiated a start date earlier this week, but upon further reflection, I think I need to push it back.
    I was greeted with an offer letter this morning with the exact start date that I requested and assured them I could make in it.
    How should I word this?

    (I’m moving across the country but the start date is already 6 weeks from now. I would like to push to 8 weeks, primarily to finish a project I have at my current job and then have time to move after it. …also, is it dumb to want to finish my project? It’s a big one.)

    1. whistle*

      Is there any chance the project with your current job will get pushed back? If so, I think it’s pretty risky to push back the start date with the new job over this.

      1. rosegrows*

        No, it’s down to making hotel reservations now. It’s been building for over a year, so of course now is when it’s ready to start.
        I can technically finish the most important part of the project and still move in time but it would be “arrive the night before and live in a hotel for awhile.” Then I would need time off anyway to get established with the DMV and all that stuff.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      You have a new job so you don’t need to finish the project at your old job. I understand your wanting to finish the project (I’m that kind of person, too), but it is not in your best interest to put yourself at risk with the new job. Someone at your old job will finish the project, now is the time to get your head in the place of being ready to take on the new job. Good luck!

      1. rosegrows*

        It’s not helping that I have been acting team lead since my last boss left a few months ago, and that I know that my (1) fellow senior staffer is also in the final stages of another job offer. I’m feeling bad for the junior staffer who will be left, who doesn’t have the skills to cover.
        We’ve been trying to hire a 3rd senior for months now.
        I’m just feeling guilty I suppose.

  119. Mistranslated*

    I have submitted a translation exam on Thursday, and immediately afterwards noticed a mistake I made. It’s only one line out of many, but it is wrong.
    Would it be okay to write back now, explain that I looked at my translation again with fresh eyes, found an embarrassing mistake made under time constraints, and correct it? If I got the actual job (which I doubt I will now) I would have more time to check, and also have more people on the team to crosscheck with, so I thought maybe as long as I can admit my mistakes later it’s okay?
    What would you do?

    1. Kathenus*

      How it’s perceived could vary a lot depending on the organization, but if it were me I’d contact them and say what you do in your post about seeing it again with fresh eyes, noticing a mistake, and here’s a correction. I would not talk about the time constraints, that sounds like an excuse. I’d probably also say that you realize that they may not be able to make any corrections on the exam but that you wanted them to know you noticed your error regardless of whether or not it can be fixed now. Good luck!

  120. Working Grandma*

    Just want to add a note of encouragement to all the older job seekers out there. I had retired due to some medical issues, and am now in a position to need a job for financial reasons. Finally, after six mo this, and with using all the resume and cover letter guidance I learned here, along with interview tips, and taking to heart the advice to not obsess over hearing back from a potential job, I have a job offer! Is it the perfect job? No. is the commute a little on the long side? Yes. Will I likely be the oldest person there? Sure. But I have taken the offer, after negotiating (confirmed in writing — thanks Allison) for a raise in six months. Start date is February 10. And in case you’re wondering I’ll be 70 in a few months.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      Wow, you are awesome. Please come back after you’ve settled in for a while and let us know how it’s going.

    5. nep*

      Oh, Working Grandma! Thanks for this. Congratulations and all the best in your new job.
      Made my day.

  121. Havarti*

    Minor vent: someone came to me today for help with a small problem. Since I needed input from a couple of other people, I said I’d look into it and come up with some sort of solution. Then they snapped, “Somebody needs to take care of this!” Like, dude, were you listening to what I just said? Or did you have a script in your head about how you thought this conversion was going to go and god forbid we deviate from it? Or maybe they didn’t like the fact I was taking up their time asking questions to make sure I understood the situation. I dunno. I try hard to be helpful and cheerful and it’s annoying when people get all RAWR! with you. You think you’re scary? Yeah, no. I could eat you for breakfast but I choose not to. :p

    1. CheeryO*

      He definitely shouldn’t have snapped at you, but it’s possible that you came off a bit more wishy-washy than you intended. I say this as someone who is very detail-oriented and likes to have my ducks in a row before getting people a final response/solution – people who are more jump-without-looking types sometimes read that as non-committal. Just a hazard of working with different personality types!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      The script thing is real! I admit I get frustrated if I don’t realize that what I’m asking for is more involved than I imagined, but I wouldn’t take it out on you! Hopefully he was temporarily grumpy, has gotten over it, and is a bit chagrined at his overreaction to a delay in his mental plan.

  122. WineNot*

    My company encouraged employees to participate in no sugar/no alcohol January. I have been participating, along with several other people, but for the most part, people are drinking and eating sugar. At the beginning of the month, our HR emailed the all-company distro which includes people in offices in multiple different states. People replied all to her emails with the most dramatic meme-type images – one was of an older man lying face down on the floor reaching for something, as if he had fallen down and couldn’t get up – and said dramatic things like “Today is the last day of our lives”, “Life is Over”, etc.

    HR has sent a few emails out over the month about lowering sugar intake and eating healthier in general. People keep replying all to the all-company distro talking about their specific diets and health goals that they have. Is this normal?! Have other people experienced funny/weird things like this? It makes me cringe and laugh and question everyone’s judgement. It seems harmless but also seems interesting for HR to promote diets by email. (accidentally added this to someone else’s thread above)

    1. Bananatiel*

      I’m not a drinker at all so my perception is skewed but yeah I’ve dealt with this in little ways at various jobs. We recently got an HR email reminding people that it wasn’t cool to have champagne in the work fridge and people openly joked in the break room about how they weren’t going to be able to get through the work day. They were clearly joking (I guess the alcohol was meant for specific work events)… but man I certainly hope there are no people in recovery in my office.

      1. WineNot*

        We work in the alcohol industry so while we are constantly dealing with alcohol, there isn’t ever alcohol accessible to drink at work. I just think it’s interesting that HR has periodically sent emails about the no sugar/no alcohol thing and even responded to one person who told the whole company they were doing the Keto diet and said “congrats on making healthier decisions”…to the whole company!

        On the other hand, we have our COO literally throwing candy at people today so we’re all over the place over here!

    2. Andrea C*

      HR needs to BCC the list so no one can reply all. It’s one thing to send out emails about improving health, but this kind of thing can be harmful to people who struggle with food issues, especially if they feel like their co-workers are judging what they’re eating.

      1. WineNot*

        Totally agree about BCC and while I found it weird that people would be joking about how hard it would be to NOT drink or eat sugar for the month, I didn’t really think about it from the perspective of those who may be struggling with food/alcohol issues. I was only thinking about it from a weird HR pushing things onto employees point of view.

        I HOPE that people don’t feel judged for what they eat or drink, but at the same time, everyone IS really comfortable with each other (at least in my specific office) so sometimes people get teased by people they’re close with for eating all the candy in the bowl, or drinking a ton of soda…but they usually understand that it’s all in fun (at least it appears that way on the outside).

        1. Fikly*

          People do not understand what sugar is. It is legit hard to not consume sugar – is no one eating fruit? Any carbohydrates at all?

          1. Avasarala*

            Agreed. The “balanced breakfast” picture is full of sugar–coffee can have sugar added, bread is baked with sugar, cereal has sugar (even Cheerios), fruit has a ton of sugar and orange juice has only sugar and no fiber… It’s really hard to cut down!

  123. Schnookums Von Fancypants, Naughty Basic Horse*

    Just grousing more than anything, but my job of three years has instituted a new dress code and we can no longer wear t-shirts to work. For context I work in a call center selling Health insurance with zero face to face contact with clients. I’ve always found the “If you dress professionally you’ll act more professionally” to be quite frankly BS (I was in the top 10% of my campaign for 2019’s Open Enrollment while wearing jeans and t-shirts.) I know there’s no pushing back, but now I have to buy a lot of work shirts, and given that I’ve not received a single merit based raise in the 3+ years I’ve been here I’m a little bitter about it. (Again for context I *have* received raises, but just because the lowest rung got pushed up. For a period of 2 months I was actually making *less* than the new hires doing the exact same job I was doing.)

    So mostly wanted to vent about it. Being able to dress casually was a perk for me that is being taken away, and I find it rather irksome.

    1. Bananatiel*

      I worked in a place where khaki pants weren’t the dress code but they might as well have been. I HATE KHAKIS. They do not flatter me. One of the best days of my working life was the day the CEO left the company suddenly. Everyone knew that it was him that had created that culture so the next day everyone was in jeans. That was a terrible place to work overall but man, I still remember that day fondly lol. I do my best work in leggings– I’m a creative– I don’t need a suit to do my work.

      Practical advice? Buy the absolute minimum number of shirts you need to make it through the week. Something about literally only owning two pairs of those khaki pants and just switching off throughout the week made me feel better. I also wasn’t allowed to wear “t-shirts” in that job– I skirted that by finding cotton/jersey material shirts that had interesting touches and looked more “blouse-y”. Same comfort level but yet acceptably dressy.

    3. NeonDreams*

      I work at a health insurance company as well. One day I got pulled to the side by my boss at the time because I was wearing leggings. She didn’t work at the same campus as me, so the only way she would’ve known is if someone had told her. (which is another story in itself). Anyway, I sympathize. That’s crap that the new hires made more than you for awhile. Hopefully you got that rectified.

      1. Schnookums Von Fancypants, Naughty Basic Horse*

        The pay thing was dealt with, although I’m still making entry level pay. Where I make up for it is my sales bonuses, but during the off season those dry up. Since I’m moving to a new team to sell medicare I’m going to press the issue of a raise; I think I have enough political capital at work to semi-insist on it.

    4. Policy wonk*

      My nephew buys his button downs at Goodwill. Good selection of desingner shirts, inexpensive. I wouldn’t have known if his mom hadn’t told me.

  124. Josh Lyman*

    Can someone explain Slack to me? I am not being curmudgeonly. But I feel like I am really, really, really missing something. If I need a quick answer from a colleague or direct report, I will shoot them a gchat (we have the Google suite in our organization). If I want to flag them on something and/or provide more context and/or I am okay with them answering at their own pace, I send an email. Slack: why would I need to use it?

    1. lobsterbot*

      slack can let groups of people self-organize for single projects, can keep your threads with others in one place, and can make it easier for someone to get up to speed. it’s also great for keeping track of files.

      downsides in that it can allow for a lot of distraction.

      1. Josh Lyman*

        Thanks, @lobsterbot.

        Maybe I have to use it more? I emailed a colleague with a question for her and only her. She asked that I repost on slack tagging her, tagging the person I was asking about (a student worker, I work in a university setting), and adding like three hashtags. All I wanted to know was whether Lee was free on Friday at noon. I guess the answer is now available for other to see?

        1. sacados*

          Yikes that sounds needlessly complicated.
          I mean, in its most basic usage Slack is just a one-to-one replacement for gchat. Anything you would send a quick chat to someone about, you do it via slack instead.
          Then slack also has additional functionality beyond the simple gchat-like messaging. For ex (as lobsterbot says) setting up chat groups with specific people (one for Project X team, one for My Department, one for Happy Hour Friends) that stays in your sidebar so you can easily access those past conversations.
          And then it also has a lot more freedom with filesharing, using it as a sort of task management tracker (use certain hashtags to flag messages on X topic that you want to keep track of … )
          But all that stuff is really dependent on how your organization is implementing it and what organizational/tracking rules they put into place.

        2. Buttons*

          What you described is annoying. There is no way that is necessary or what Slack is intended for.

    2. Fikly*

      Late reply, but at my company we use it mostly for the channels, though the direct messages/small chats are also useful.

      So for example, my team has a channel that we all use to chat about team issues in. We also have an annoucements channel that we only post important things that we want to flag to attention (and then everyone adds an emoji to indicate they’ve seen it). And there are some channels with multiple teams on them. We currently have a channel going for planning a two team off-site at the end of the month, that kind of thing.

  125. That Girl from Quinn's House*

    I have a question. I have been trying to get a job at a large employer where my friend works. I heard from my friend that they’re having a terrible time hiring, because HR is using a very strict but strange ATS filter to sort through candidates, and HR is using overly-broad and often inaccurate job descriptions for the postings.

    So on my end, I’m having a terrible time getting through the filter for jobs I’m qualified to do; on their end, they’re posting jobs for program directors and administrative managers and getting the resumes of fast-food workers and Uber drivers, and when they do get a qualified candidate, they turn down the job because the description is inaccurate.

    I’m fairly confident that I’d be a good candidate for some of these roles if I could get through the filter, but I don’t know how. Any tips?

    1. irene adler*

      Can your friend go straight to HR or the hiring manager-with your resume- and recommend you for a specific position? Friend could also mention that you have applied for the position via the normal route. Friend is just giving them the ‘heads-up’ that a viable candidate- you!- is in their system and they must make sure to find your application.

    2. Andrea C*

      Is there any kind of employee referral program where your friend could put you forward? If not, is there any way the friend could talk to their boss about knowing someone good? It sounds like the HR issues are well-known, so maybe the boss would have ideas how to get your resume in front of HR.

      Also, is going through the company’s website the only way to apply? Do they use Indeed or LinkedIn without sending you to their website? I don’t know if that circumvents their filters, but it’s worth a try.

    3. Buttons*

      If you are filling out an online form, use the exact words in their job description and then attach your resume and cover letter. Don’t let the system auto-fill your resume. The best way to get past their filters is to use their own words to describe what you do. Good luck! But think about this- if HR is screwing this up so bad, what else is HR screwing up?

      1. valentine*

        if HR is screwing this up so bad, what else is HR screwing up?
        This is my concern. Sounds like self-sabotage.

  126. NeonDreams*

    Any (Ex) call center workers in the house? My company keeps ticking me off the more I stay here but I don’t have many other options.

    My company’s command center sets schedules for us reps to go by every day. I get why it’s there. It wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t micromanaged you To Death. Like today they scheduled my lunch for noon, but I work until 5:30. It depends on the day what time it’s scheduled. I told my higher up I wanted it moved because I’d have to sit from 12:45 to 5:30 with one 15 minute break. And Command refused, said they’ve already set the schedule and it wouldn’t be moved. Then I ended up being late to lunch because of a long call. We’re now supposed to tell our higher ups if we’re late to lunch or it’s held against us. (Rages like anger from Inside Out).

    I’m trying my hardest to get out, but god. They are making it hard

    1. WineNot*

      It sounds like they’re managing you like kids and I can imagine that can’t be very much fun. It also doesn’t seem like they care to change or allow any more room for flexibility.

      If you are working for a call center, maybe you could try to look for a remote customer service-type role if there aren’t many opportunities near you physically? I’m sure there are a bunch of companies out there that would hire someone with your experience but you could work from anywhere, aka take lunch when you can.

    2. Notthemomma*

      I used to work four 10 hour days, our control desk which was on the other side of the country had algorithms that would schedule breaks and lunch with no rhyme or reason. As I , a break half hour into the shift, or 15 minutes after lunch. I used to call another company that I knew had (at the time) a looonnnggg call message and options and run to the bathroom so it wouldn’t hurt my stats. Finally at my doctors appt I asked and she delivered a note that I need breaks every XX hours due to medical need. The need being that as all humans, I have to pee once in a while.

    3. Mia 52*

      I honestly think this is just the nature of call centers as much of a bummer as that is. If they move your lunch then they need coverage during your lunch so then they need to move someone else’s and that person may have a problem with it. Call centers are the definition of butts in seats job. Sorry :/ Hope you find something else!

  127. Reversed Recinded Offer*

    I interviewed for a position several months ago. I called to verbally accept the offer a few days after it was extended. I told them I would follow up in writing later that day. Later that same day, I received an email stating the company had a change in business needs and was pulling the offer. I moved on and continued applying to other positions.

    A week ago, I received a message from the hiring manager. They are re-extending the offer now that the issue is resolved.

    I have already accepted another short term position (job A) but am not set to start for a month. The re-extended offer (job R) is local (no moving a ten hours’ drive away) and 8k more than job A. My spouse was going to stay in our hometown I have been struggling hard with this decision. I am concerned about the stability of job R, even though the financial outlook is better. I worry that a short stint at R would look bad on my resume. Job A is a stepping stone to more advanced positions in my field. It is normal and expected for A to be short.

    I would sure appreciate some advice!

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      If you had both offers on the table the first time you were offered Job R, which one would you have taken?

  128. Miss M*

    When asked “Why are you leaving your current job?” Is “My job is 50% travel and while I thought I’d be ok with that, I’m finding that this much travel doesn’t suit me” plus adding in you know, things like “and also this job really aligned with my interest in X organization” ?

  129. Lucette Kensack*

    Quick help needed!

    In short: What is the appropriate amount of detail to share when sending a note to colleagues about an extended medical leave?

    Some detail:

    I was hospitalized at the beginning of the year and have spent most of this month on medical leave. As a part of my leave, I negotiated with my managers about the specific tasks and projects I would work on from home (while handing off the majority of my work; I’ve worked here and there over the past six weeks). One of the projects I agreed to stay engaged in is helping to plan an event. The planning team is four people, representing the four organizations that are co-sponsoring the event.

    I had my first meeting with the group last week. This week, my doctors finally came up with a treatment plan, which starts with surgery next week. Further treatment is TBD based on the outcome of the surgery, so I will be out at least 10 days in recovery (and potentially longer, but that’s not my concern at the moment).

    So: these aren’t people I’m close with. I’ve known them all for years but only work together sporadically. How much detail should I give when I send them an email today telling them I’ll be out? (I’m not going to give, like, diagnosis information — my question is more: should I just say I’ll be out and leave it at that, or should I say that I’ll be having surgery and have an unknown return date?)

    1. fposte*

      Hi, Lucette! Sorry to hear about your travails; I guess that there are physical consequences of being larger than life :-).

      I think it could go either way; it’s just a question of which downside you want to deal with. I lean toward saying I’m having surgery, but the downside there is the possibility of people directly asking you about the surgery; if you just say you’ll be out, people will be more mystified and alarmed and talking to each other rather than you. My personal view is that it’s worse for the office and the working relationship when people have to make things up, but I’m also not that bothered by the occasional “Heard you’re having surgery–what for?”

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Thank you! I decided to just go with “I have surgery scheduled on Monday and will be out for at least a week.”

        These folks are distant enough from me that I don’t think I’ll get any responses (other than kind support). I just wasn’t sure whether it was too much to even mention the surgery!

        1. fposte*

          No, I think it’s useful. (Especially if you really are Midwestern.) I hope it all goes well and you have a speedy recovery.

    2. Co-workers Will Gossip*

      Give them enough information to ensure that the rumor mill doesn’t fill in the blanks. I was out when my child had a mental health issue and came back to discover my colleagues had decided I had cancer and was out for chemo. (!!)

  130. Got a Raise Despite Awkward Timing*

    A month or so ago, I asked advice about asking for a raise while also asking to take on more responsibility. It was a little tricky in that the seniority of my title isn’t changing, plus my employer is (allegedly) planning salary increases in the spring. (But I didn’t want to count on that bc my employer always takes MUCH longer to do everything than they plan.)

    Another awkward thing was that our building had a fire right around the time I wanted to ask for a raise. We have insurance, but I still think the whole thing cost money. Also some of our products aren’t doing well, so all in all we were on shaky ground.

    But anyway, with all that going against me, I asked for a raise, and I got one (12%). I’m really glad I asked.

  131. TDotKrayz*

    At me such question:

    Boss still insists on using Windows 98. She likes Spider Solitare (win——>fireworks). Rest of team; not so much. How we can act as group to get her to let us upgrade office computers?

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Hopefully you aren’t accessing the internet on those dinosaurs. But isn’t Spider Solitaire available online, perhaps with even cooler fireworks? I’m sure I’ve seen it since 98 anyway. You just need to find a really cool online version, and point out that only Win 10 is supported for internet access, but then she can play it and it’s way better!

    2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      This might go to moderation, but I just found a link to an online emulator for this game in just a few seconds. There are apparently downloadable versions too but you’d want to check those for security. I just tried this and it works on my phone at least!

      www. squidbyte. com/ games/ spidersolitairewindowsxp/

    3. Avasarala*

      Is her job to play Spider Solitaire?
      I would think the tech for your office should be considered based on what you need to do your job, not what you want to goof off with.

  132. I don’t post often*

    TL DR: work from home employee. I need help with time management, but more work bleeding into personal life or personal life bleeding into work.

    I work from home and my manager allows a flexible schedule. Normally I have busy weeks and more normal weeks. Because of some massive changes at company suddenly all the time is busy, I have way more work than I can possibly do, plus because of the everything takes a few tries as several people are leaving or taking on different roles. I do anticipate this level of work will continue for at least six months possibly a year.

    On top of that my husband works a flexible schedule with Friday as a “day off” and Sunday as a working day. He may or may not have evening meetings and can adjust his schedule accordingly. Because of the nature of his work he is essentially “on call” at all times even when it’s his day off. With that being said, if he has a hectic seven days and then lays low no one questions it.

    We have a small child. We have part time in home childcare and child also attends school part time. There has always been a balance here, but lately because of the extra work for me, time is bleeding into family. Example: promised child I would take her to event after I was done working for the day on Wednesday. We were to leave no later than 4. Oops! System is broken and the techs work 1pm to 1am. They want to meet with me at 3:30. I stay on the phone with them until 4:30…. and then go back to work around 8pm to be available for them.

    This probably wouldn’t be so bad, except that husband’s job is suddenly out of control as well. The nature of his work is somewhat unpredicatable. We are hoping for a quiet February, but so far it’s shaping up to be a hectic month.

    At the moment either of us leaving our job isn’t really an option for various reasons…

    So that leaves me with time management. I need more efficiency. Thoughts? Ideas? Things that have worked for you?

    1. WellRed*

      Are you sure time management is your issue? It sounds more like a workplace is too busy issue right now. Or maybe you are just hesitant to set hard goals regarding family priorities (eg, supposed to take child at 4. Why not wait until you get home after? Or the next day? Would you have stayed at the physical office late?

      1. I don’t post often*

        That’s fair. If I were at a physical office and supposed to leave at 4, I probably would have left at 4 and switched to a cell to continue the call. I am bad about setting boundaries. This is true.

        1. valentine*

          Guard your time like a dragon. Keep your promises. They are great because you don’t have to be vague. Ideally, you would have said you weren’t available after 3:00 (buffer time or surprising the kid with leaving early) and could you reschedule for x:00.

          I think you could do with more flexibility earlier in the day and a hard stop so you can hang with the kid and do a meal or bedtime, with your husband taking the other. Otherwise, still a hard stop and an inflexible window, after which you have a hard start/stop, after kid’s bedtime and (and here comes the most important part) well before yours.

          Schedule non-negotiable time for each parent with the kid, complete with a massive white board or calendar. I’d call it an important meeting you can’t move. And really stick to it. It’ll help with any times things really do take precedence and you have to change other plans. (Flood, fire.) They can point to the meeting that’s definitely taking place and not feel slighted or constantly scheduled over.

          Sharing only one day off sounds like it would be a problem sooner rather than later, especially with a kid.

    2. Manders*

      Does your kid have any friends with families you trust to pick her up for events or supervise fun time? It might be helpful to organize some fun events that get her out of the house without you having to be there with her at a certain time.

      It might also be time to start pushing back if the techs ask for meetings that don’t work for your schedule–if they work 1 pm to 1 am, 3:30 pm is not the only time they could meet with you.

      1. I don’t post often*

        This is an interesting suggestion. If she were older this might work. She isn’t elementary school aged yet. She still needs a bit more supervision. At this point parents are still expected to attend events with a child her age. I think you may have hit the nail on the head- a different childcare situation than our current one may be needed at this time.

    3. CrazyKetoLady*

      I used to work from home. Even when I lived alone, it was a challenge. I managed to procrastinate on housework with work-work and vice versa.

      I wound up having far greater success when I got out of the house to work. That usually meant heading to the library. Headphones were necessary, but the combination of having no other tasks to distract me and the time limit for parking really helped.

      Anyway, would it be possible for you to do something like that? It’s basically building in the boundary that you’d get from going into an office, but with the freedom to choose your when.

  133. The Salary Switcheroo*

    Has anyone experienced where a job advertises the salary range on a job posting, but then when you get to the interview, they say “Oh! We realized it’s a big range we had posted for the job. Our bad. We actually want to hire at the low end of the range.” And then you feel incredibly demoralized because you were excited about the salary range, and while you didn’t think you may get the top, you could at least land in the middle happily.

    This just happened and :( I’m bummed. They did say while they are hiring closer to the minimum of the range, they are giving wiggle room for negotiation. I don’t know if that means if they offer right at $50k (the minimum) or if that means they could offer at $55k?

    I make $59k and was really hoping for $65k, but even $60k with the longer commute and my experience. Is asking for $10k above the minimum pushing it?

    And why do companies post such a wide range and then are like JK! We only will hire at the bottom sorry…?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      A lot of employers post the actual pay scale for the position (which would include people who’ve been in the role for 10 years) when they only intend to hire at the bottom. It sucks.

    2. WellRed*

      I suppose they could have genuinely goofed when they posted the range, but the fact that they didn’t call you ahead of the interview to tell you that and ask if you are still interested makes me think not. Would you take the job at $55K? I doubt they’ll get to $60K.

    3. CatCat*

      I’d be pissed and post about the experience on Glass Door. There’s an option to share interview experiences.

      It’s inconsiderate and sloppy at best, and a calculated move on their part at worst. Neither bodes well for them. They should have alerted you about it before you came for an interview.

    4. CM*

      I got as far as a job offer at a place that had posted the salary band + the hiring range within the salary band. I asked for 3% more than what they initially offered me, still within the posted hiring range, and then they started saying the salary was capped at a lower number and refused to acknowledge the discrepancy. Like, they literally just tried to gaslight me into thinking it had always been a lower number because they thought I couldn’t take a screenshot.

      Which is to say… yeah, I’ve had a similar experience and it sucks. You have to make your own decision about how risky you want to be, but I think it’s fair to let them know that you were hoping for something closer to $60K if you get to the offer stage. It might mean that this turned out to be a job you can’t take, which sucks.

  134. chi chan*

    I am in grad school and am honestly feeling a burn out approaching. I am looking for advice on whether I should drop a subject or how to balance part time job, studies and chores. I have 4 subjects and have to write a thesis in the next year as well. Honestly I feel like becoming a hermit.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Dropping a subject is probably the safest choice.

      In graduate school, I look back and realize how much time I wasted. Not in the sense of “I’m not working” wasted, but “I’m doing anti-self-care right now” wasted, like watching dumb videos online to procrastinate. Maybe also examine if that’s the case for you and redirect that time into self-care or other forms of productive time (i.e. sleep)?

    2. AnotherSarah*

      I always advice dropping a class, if it won’t really screw you up with time to degree or financially. Burnout is real and can take months to recover from. You want your brain to function well for thesis-writing!

  135. So here's a story...*

    Last Friday, my close friend was at home and started hallucinating and having heart palpitations. She thought she was having a stroke, dying, she thought her husband was trying to kill her, or Citracal was trying to kill her (she had just started taking calcium supplements – she was also having paranoia). She was taken to the hospital and her blood tested positive for marijuana. It turns out, her mom had been given cookies at a retirement party and didn’t understand the warning “Just eat one.” My friend ate three of them.

    My friend and her mom live in a state where marijuana is legal. Her mom works at a hospital. It turns out it was her boss who handed out the plates of cookies for her employees to take home.

    My friend’s mom called her boss and her boss felt awful. However, she did not offer to pay for my friend’s medical bills. My friend’s mom feels responsible because she didn’t know what “just eat one” meant, because she has no experience with drugs. She won’t ask her boss to pay and has instead offered to pay the medical bills herself, which is annoying but her choice. (My friend has health insurance but the copays, etc.)

    I am just so grateful that her 5-year-old son did not have a cookie and that my friend’s breastfeeding infant was not affected. My friend is pretty mad (I’m also mad on her behalf) but her mom is being very passive about the situation (which is partly understandable, since it’s her boss).

    Anyway, not really asking advice but just a word to the readers – maybe don’t give your employees drug-laced cookies without being really explicit.

    1. HBJ*

      That’s horrible! Besides the fact I don’t think a boss should be giving their employees drugs, he should have been extremely explicit – as in, “these contain marijuana.” Not “just eat one” or “these are special brownies” or whatever. If I was told “just eat one,” I would not assume they contained drugs. I would assume a “haha, no one can eat just one of my amazing brownies” or “leave some for someone else because who can eat just one brownie?” context.

      And even if she did just eat one, how does he know someone will be ok just eating one? Different people respond differently to amounts of marijuana is my understanding.

      I think the mom should report this higher up. This is horrifying and apalling, and the boss’s judgement is not to be trusted.

      The boss needs to answer a lot of questions starting with:
      -why would you be so cavalier about the brownies containing marijuana?
      -why do you think it’s appropriate to hand out drugs to employees?
      -why do you think it’s appropriate to give drugs, particularly so obliquely, to people who you do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt would appreciate and be happy to receive said drugs?

    3. Granger Chase*

      I understand that your friend’s mom doesn’t want to rock the boat at her job…but I’m guessing that even though marijuana is legal in the state, the boss could still get into a ton of trouble. Distributing edibles to your employees, at least one of whom did not know they contained drugs, does not seem to me like it would be legal. And I am sure a hospital would have company policies in place RE: drugs, whether legal or not, being brought into work and distributed.
      There’s definitely a lot for her to think about here as far as what she ultimately wants to do. I hope your friend is doing better & I am glad her children did not eat any of the laced cookies, one way or another.

      1. Van Wilder*

        Yeah this is definitely a serious situation. Unfortunately my friend’s mom is very non-confrontational and has made the decision that she’s not going to do anything about it.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        It sounds like no, she didn’t. I certainly wouldn’t interpret “just eat one” as meaning “this food product has been spiked with recreational drugs and will make you high, keep it away from children”.

        Honestly, giving out marijuana laced cookies to your employees is kinda dicey, even if it’s completely legal. Doing so without explicitly and unambiguously stating this and labelling them should be a fireable offense.

        1. valentine*

          I hope this qualifies legally as reckless endangerment. I’d report the boss, even at the risk of Mom’s job. I’d want to stop her now to avoid worse consequences for someone else. She didn’t fall on her sword or offer to pay the bills!

      2. Van Wilder*

        I don’t know if anyone is still checking back here but…
        No, my friend’s mom did not understand that there was pot in the cookies. She blamed herself after the fact because she thought she “should” have known from “just eat one.” But there are plenty of people that wouldn’t have understood that.

    5. CM*

      I feel like it’s a crime to drug someone’s food without explicitly telling them. I could be wrong, and these people might want to ask a lawyer, but I think this goes beyond suing someone for medical bills and goes into criminal charges.

    6. The Grammarian*

      The person giving the cookies should have been very explicit that they were weed cookies and that anyone having any should have no more than one. Essentially, your friend was poisoned and they are lucky her breastfeeding child wasn’t affected and that your friend didn’t do anything harmful when she was freaking out.

    7. Bilateralrope*

      That boss was drugging her staff without telling them. Meaning informed consent was impossible. As a result, your friend was also drugged.

      I’d say your friends choices are going to the police or whoever handles ethics/legal complaints at the hospital.

    8. HRLady*

      I think what makes me the most nervous about this is “works at a hospital”. So was the assumption of the boss that these were “take home” cookies. How would the boss know that they wouldn’t be working a shift later (assuming that they maybe doctors or nurses) which could endanger patients. Plus what if someone ate them on their way out the door and had to drive. I can understand not rocking the boat and forcing your boss to pay money but someone with disciplinary action should know about this since it could have harmed so many other people.

      1. Van Wilder*

        I think it’s an administrative department and doesn’t include patient care providers. But yeah. Terrible judgment either way.

  136. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Job application question:

    -Applied, interviewed (final round), and was rejected for job with Big Corporation
    -New job just posted, at a subsidiary of Big Corporation
    -New job would interact a lot with the team I interviewed with at Big Corporation

    Question: Should I mention interviewing with Big Corporation in my cover letter? Or is this something to mention during an interview, if ever?

    1. Uranus Wars*

      I’d be curious what their checks and balances are between the subsidiaries. Do you know if they share an HR department?

    2. fposte*

      I wouldn’t in the cover letter; it could come up in the interview if it’s useful to indicate your knowledge or familiarity, but it doesn’t sound like something that would automatically advance your candidacy.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Interesting! My gut reaction was to include it in the cover letter, if for no other reason than the new hiring committee could reach out to the old hiring committee to ask for their thoughts/feedback on ATH as an applicant and ATH could hope/assume they would have glowing things to say, along the lines of “oh we wanted to hire ATH but went with Other Candidate for XYZ reasons, but you should totally bring ATH in to talk!”

        I think if ATH wasn’t a finalist, I’d leave it, but since s/he was, I’d be more inclined to weave it in.

        1. fposte*

          It could just be where my hiring comes from, but I think this is such a tenuous connection that it seems like overclaiming in a cover letter; I’m doing my own hiring process and am really not interested in substituting the judgment of another one (I definitely wouldn’t reach out to another hiring committee at this stage), and it’s a double-edged sword to say “Hey, thought you’d want to know that these people didn’t hire me!” I think people sometimes feel like a job finalist is like being on an award shortlist as far as being an achievement in its own right, but it’s not, IMHO, actually an experience that gives me information about how a candidate will perform in my job; if Analytical had worked at the subsidiary, that would be another matter. To me including it looks like an attempt at a namedrop that’s rather misplaced unless you can quantify what about the *experience* of applying to the other job made you more qualified for this job.

          1. Not a Real Giraffe*

            I guess my assumption was that the jobs were similar in nature. I was once fast-tracked for an interview at a parent company (and was later hired) largely in part because I had been a finalist for a role at the subsidiary. But the two jobs were essentially the same (and the subsidiary had decided to go with an internal applicant, which was why I hadn’t been given the offer), so the qualifications for each role were identical.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      I wouldn’t include it in your cover letter OR mention it in the interview. If I were hiring and you put in your cover letter that you interviewed at the Parent Co and were rejected, it is unlikely that I would follow-up with you unless your resume indicated you were a rock star. And if you mentioned it in your interview, it would seem to me that you were a name-dropper. Wishing you good luck with your application at the Subsidiary Co, though!

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Thank you all for the great feedback and perspective. I won’t mention it. My main hesitation was that it seemed like name-dropping and would come across as being unaware that being rejected is an anti-recommendation (I wasn’t a strong candidate for this other, similar position, but consider me anyways!!).

      My purpose in bringing it up would have been to avoid weirdness if I were brought in for an interview/hired, i.e. “Surprise, I’m a candidate you rejected recently and now we’ll be working together” (creepy grin).

  137. Third or Nothing!*

    We just got these cool mini desks that go on top of our actual desks to turn them into sit/stand desks. (Ok now the word “desks” looks weird.) Everyone is super excited about them and has been standing for the past 2 hours straight. It’s cute how happy this small thing has made people.

    On a related note, I need to find some more supportive shoes! My feet started to hurt in my black flats so I had to sit down even though I didn’t want to yet.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I was thinking of doing just that! I’m not sure how I’d work around the chair’s wheels…seems like it would get annoying moving a mat out of the way every time I want to sit down.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          It is annoying. But I do it anyway, since I’m already moving my desk and my mouse and my monitors and my chair for the new working position.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Ooh, I have one of those desks, and it’s awesome.

      Do you have anti-fatigue mats to go with your new sit/stand desks? I find mine to be a big help when I’m using mine in my standing position (which I should really do more often).

    3. Kama'aina Kitty*

      Congrats on the new desk set ups! For supportive shoes, try Danskos. Not the most attractive shoes, but the firm insoles are great for your feet. It seems counter-intuitive, but for me, soft-soled shoes lead to foot pain.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        It’s totally not counter-intuitive to me! I’m a runner and prefer lower cushion shoes. Wish it wouldn’t look super tacky to wear my Chacos.

  138. Hot Mess Express*

    So, I had an annual review with one of my reports last week. She thought that the two areas I marked Needs Improvement were unfair mainly because “I am a perfectionist and don’t want to have this on my record”. Also, after 15 months it’s not fair I expect things of her when she’s “new”.

    Her overall rating is “Meets Expectations”. Which is true. While she is challenging and needs hand-holding more than I would like she does good work and I explained as much. Well, what I told HER was that I need her to be more proactive and communicative around projects and that I need to be able to rely on her to get things done on time.

    Then she tells me she is a “little afraid” of me and feels like she is “always in the principals office” but had no specific examples. Apparently it’s hard for her to get my management style because I am not “warm and fuzzy” and hold things close to the vest. She was upset that I did not attend her wedding because she was hoping I’d come “get wasted and relax”. Apparently her husband thinks I am one of “those weird bosses who doesn’t hang out with people who report to them”. I drink probably more than I should, just not with my reports or people I work with in general! One of her personal goals for 2020 is to drink more so she’ll have a higher tolerance at a friends wedding this summer (oh, the things I wish I did not know).

    I went to HR earlier this week because I was really worried that her lack of professional boundaries was skewing my point of view and that maybe my expectations weren’t in line with the rest of management. They had some great advice for nudging her to be more independent and proactive but they also advised my expectations are in line and that it might be time for a more frank meeting.

    So this afternoon I am meeting with her to tell her we are not changing her review and ask directly about some of her comments and for more specific examples.

    I have been trying to ask her more about her personal life this week but honestly some of the things she tells me makes me uncomfortable and I still don’t want to share much about my own personal life – it’s just my nature. In and out of work, actually. Even my closest friends and family tell me this.

    I am not even sure what I am asking here. I think I just needed to get it off my chest before the meeting and this is another way to process it.

    1. WellRed*

      Oh good luck. She’s being wildly inappropriate and I think she’s honestly not a good fit for you. Also, stop “trying” to tell her to knock it off with the personal stuff and find a way to be clear and direct. I’m assuming her husband works in some industry (food service?) where boundaries are a lot looser so she’ll unfortunately have that as a data point.

      1. valentine*

        “get wasted and relax”
        You gotta tell her your expectations won’t relax. It’s like she wants to buddy up so you’ll grade her more softly.

    2. fposte*

      Yikes. I think I would ask her a lot *less* about her personal life. Any chance she’s used to restaurant work or some other field where boundaries tend to be thin-to-nonexistent?

      I would definitely not try to remold myself into the image of the manager-pal she seems to want. Not every situation requires a compromise. I think ultimately she’s uncomfortable with the power discrepancy between a manager and a report, and that, frankly, is on her to adjust to, because that’s pretty much how work operates.

    3. CheeryO*

      Oh my goodness, I might be your report (slightly intimidated by my boss, he wants me to be more communicative), but I am definitely not handling it like that! It’s not her right to complain about your management style, and her lack of boundaries is ridiculously unprofessional. You’re right to stick to your guns on her review, and to be frank, I don’t think you need to bend over backwards to try to be more warm and fuzzy for her. Hopefully your meeting goes well – let us know.

      1. Buttons*

        Ask your boss “what does being more communicative mean to you?”
        That is a general way to say something, and we all have different views as to what that means. I want to know;
        1. Are you experiencing any roadblocks that I may be able to help you navigate
        2. Are you on schedule/time
        3. Is there anything you are unsure of that I can clarify
        4. Depending on what it is I may want to see it before the final, because if something isn’t right or if it is going off the rails, it is easier to course correct than to fix something after it is done.

        1. CheeryO*

          Thank you! I mostly understand where he’s coming from (mostly #1 and #3 on your list), but it helps to see those examples in writing. I’ve always been very independent, so it doesn’t always come naturally to me to keep the lines of communication going when things are mostly chugging along just fine.

      2. Buttons*

        Ask your boss “what does being more (communicative) mean to you?”
        That is a general way to say something, and we all have different views as to what that means. I want to know;
        1. Are you experiencing any roadblocks that I may be able to help you navigate
        2. Are you on schedule/time
        3. Is there anything you are unsure of that I can clarify
        4. Depending on what it is I may want to see it before the final, because if something isn’t right or if it is going off the rails, it is easier to course correct than to fix something after it is done.

    4. Buttons*

      Yikes. I don’t think I would be asking her much about her personal life, or if you do and she says something that is inappropriate (like drinking more to build up her tolerance) I would right then and there tell her that isn’t appropriate to talk about at work.
      “I need her to be more proactive and communicative around projects and that I need to be able to rely on her to get things done on time.”
      In your meeting, I would bring the above up again and then ask her “what do you think it means when I say proactive and communicative” Make sure she understands, and if she doesn’t, tell her exactly that means to you.
      I would like to have weekly status updates.
      “If a deadline is approaching and you don’t think you are going to make that deadline, what are you going to do?” Then tell her exactly what you want her to do- I want you to come tell me as soon as you know so that we can re-priortize some things that may be keeping you from meeting this deadline.

      Good luck! I hope you will let us know how it goes.

    5. Forkeater*

      Good Lord. She sounds very immature. I would not change my work style at all to match hers and would be very concerned about her professionalism.

    6. sacados*

      I really don’t think asking her more about her personal life is the right answer here. First off, with the “my goal is to learn how to drink more” thing it sounds like this employee is already sharing way too much about her personal life. She may want a more “warm and fuzzy” boss who will “get wasted” with her after work, but the fact that you don’t is actually what makes you a NORMAL and GOOD manager (not “weird”).
      I’m all for adjusting your managerial style to match what your employees need from you, but not when it means that you would be actively making yourself worse at managing.
      Either this person is really new to the workforce, or she previously worked somewhere with terrible boundaries/a really fratty culture. Honestly the best thing you can do for her at this point is try to redirect her expectations of what a functional boss/employee relationship should look like.

    7. WineNot*

      I’ve never in my life met anyone whose goal was to drink MORE so they increase their tolerance. You have a “gem” on your hands. Tread lightly. She also sounds like she is upset you don’t talk about yourself a ton only because she would like an excuse to talk about herself even more. Please update us on how the conversation goes!

    8. Allypopx*

      You do not need to push yourself outside of your comfort zone for this person. Your professional boundaries are reasonable, she’s acting childish, and this isn’t a meet in the middle situation. Have a frank conversation and make sure you’re on the same page – but it’s not you she’s afraid of, it’s the fact she’s in a relationship dynamic she’s not comfortable with and doesn’t know how to conduct herself within a professional set of restraints. That’s…not your problem. I understand that the two of you aren’t super compatible, and if it were just a personality clash I might say something different. But just make your expectations clear and keep doing what you’re doing.

    9. Ama*

      I agree with what everyone here has said so far, I’d also add — it’s not really your problem if she finds you intimidating or not warm or whatever and it isn’t your job to be her friend. Your problem is that she isn’t producing work in the way you need it to be done, and your job is to get her to understand that and what the consequences are if *she* can’t adapt to *your* request (not the other way around). Focus on that and don’t let her derail the conversation with complaints about your behavior. If she can’t handle your management style, she needs to find another job.

  139. Lauren*

    My company is always making excuses for why we can’t hire, or can’t promote. Now with some news about a reorg, that will be the latest excuse. I’m looking for a job assuming my promotion isn’t happening since they laid off my only direct report, but I need some advice on recruiters that handle only Director and above roles. How do I find them? I’m tired of being way above salary expectations and I want to stop wasting my time. What titles beside ‘executive recruiter’ should I look for?

    I’m in Boston looking for a marketing director role with 15 years experience.

    2. irene adler*

      Is there a local chapter of a professional organization in your area? If so, they might have some names for you to reach out to.

      1. Six Degrees of Separation*

        Yes, this, organizations are helpful. How about ANA Marketers or Together Digital (although I don’t see a Boston chapter for the latter)?

        1. Lauren*

          I have gone through most of the Boston org job boards, but most are for entry or mid-level openings when I am trying for higher level. I was part of it before the name change. Original chapter disbanded since HQ when fees doubled and there were all these new rules for how we’d end up losing the monthly funding. With free orgs in Boston, it was hard to get people to want to join let alone find event venues, which meant we’d always lose funding to HQ if we didn’t find them in advance to post events by the rules. Looks like the 2nd Boston chapter disbanded too. Too bad, it was a nice idea and the slack was amazing.

  140. OyHiOh*

    Does anyone here evaluate artist’s resumes?

    I’m writing one for the first time. Curious what you look for – what sort of experiences you’d like to see, formats/fonts, etc.

    1. KoiFeeder*

      I would assume “relevance to the work at hand” would be one portion of it? Someone looking for a teapot aesthetics officer is not going to be interested in impressionistic painting of llamas without any sculpture experience, no matter how nice the llama paintings are.

    2. Chaordic One*

      In my admittedly limited experience, when I’ve been part of teams that hire artists and designers, we pretty much look for the same things that you’d find on a regular resume. I know there’s an idea out there that the resume of an artist should be “creative!” But you don’t want your creative resume to distract from the basic information you need to provide. I’d be cautious in using unusual fonts, though you could include something such as a logo for yourself at the top of the resume. We had some applicants who had attractive logos that they used on their resume, CV, and cover letter like a letterhead. They all matched and made a good impression, but that’s not something you absolutely have to do.

      As for content, in addition to education and employment (if you have art-related employment all the better) you might consider a section listing any exhibitions you’ve participated in, prizes won, that sort of thing. Under job skills you might break down your art-related training into such things as: (Major medium of study – Painting, Supporting coursework – sculpture, metal-smithing, art history, graphic design) things like that. A lot of the resumes I saw looked a bit more like CVs than resumes because they had more information about the artist’s education and work and you would see for a more ordinary job.

      Still, the resume is probably a bit less important than for more ordinary jobs, because a big part of what’s going to get you hired is your portfolio. More often I’m seeing online portfolios where the artist provides a link to images of her (or his) artwork, sometimes on a personal website. Sometimes they’ll submit images of their artwork on a thumbdrive and sometimes they’ll leave behind an actual portfolio with original artwork in it that will be examined and then returned to the applicant.

      And yes, you’ll want to assume “relevance to the work at hand” by customizing your resume to emphasis your expertise in the specific area of skill required for the position you’re applying for. You might want to emphasize your experience in teapot aesthetics and downplay (or even omit) your impressionistic painting experience or sculpture experience, depending on the particular position you’re applying for.

  141. AnotherAlison*

    Some good (well, at least interesting) news today. Through no merit of my own, I am going to be a corporate officer of one of our operating subsidiaries.

    Take that, male interviewees who only make eye contact with the male interviewer (ref to yesterday).

  142. D.W.*

    Looking for advice on how to keep my spouse encouraged while job hunting.

    Today is my husband’s last day (he was laid off). He has been with the company a little under six years and he is overwhelmed at the prospect of job hunting. His resume needs serious re-working as well as his cover letter, and he feels inadequate and at a deficit about his skills when stacked against other candidates. Added is the stress that we have a small child to take care of.

    I am still working and will be able to take care of the family (thankfully). There will be budgetary cutbacks, but we have a really nice savings account if there are any financial emergencies. We will keep our daughter in daycare through the end of March to given him time to job hunt uninterrupted, but after that he will be home with her full-time. My salary can’t support the household and daycare.

    1. fposte*

      I would ask the spouse! And be prepared for the possibility that there really isn’t anything specific for you to do here, and that the answer might therefore be managing your stress without having an action to take.

    2. Entry-level Marcus*

      I was recently unemployed for 5 months (though it sounds like I’m younger than your husband, and I don’t have kids).

      One thing you could do is make sure that he has something each week to look forward to that isn’t job hunting-related. Perhaps a date night with you, or going hiking with the family, or a family movie night, etc.

      Also, I know this might be difficult with a kid in the picture, but try to work together so that he’ll have some structure and routine around the job search. For me, it was getting out of the house and going to a coffee shop or the library with my laptop every weekday around noon and job hunting for 2-4 hours.

  143. Kat Maps*

    How do you answer the interview question “tell me about a time you worked with/managed a difficult co-worker” when you have never really had to so? I’ve been asked this question a lot, and I think I saw it come up earlier this week when readers shared their terrible interview stories. I never know how to answer – I’ve been super lucky to work with people who haven’t been ‘difficult’! I’ve managed some big personalities, but never anyone that I would consider ‘difficult’. Any thoughts?

    1. Manders*

      I think that’s actually the perfect way to answer this question: You’ve managed some big personalities, but you found a way to do that without having an adversarial relationship with them. You can talk about the way you headed off conflict at the pass.

    2. Buttons*

      You can say that, but then either add how you navigated a difficult situation or conversation. Or how you would manage a difficult person.

      “While I have been lucky to work with some big personalities, I wouldn’t consider anyone difficult. However, if there is a person that I had a difficult time with I would approach the situation by reminding myself that most people have good intentions and the difficulty can be from miscommunication or just from not fully understanding all the moving parts. To navigate that I would ask questions so I could fully understand where the person was coming from and to make sure I had all the same information they have.”

  144. unrealsnow*

    Hello! I wonder if I could gather some interviewing advice. I have read all the posts and blog entries here on AAM and have crafted answers to some of the more general possible interview questions.

    My issue is that the place I’ve been trying to get a FT job at (there aren’t a lot of open positions in my field in this area outside of this organization available) asks some very specific and interesting questions (“what would your coworkers say they’ve learned by working with you?” is one I had in an interview recently). I’m fairly good at thinking on my feet but this one definitely threw me for a loop!

    I’d also like any tips people have to curb going on and on about an answer when the first few sentences were enough. I know it’s mostly nerves but I’m annoyed at myself for doing this! I currently work at this organization part time and on an as-needed basis so I’m familiar with the procedures. I mostly work in one department and everyone there loves me so I’m really just up against the administration not knowing me that well and knowing how great I am at my job.

    Any other advice on how to be a better interviewer would be welcome, too. Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      Why do you think you go “on and on” with your answers? IS the question to vague? I’m finding that asking a clarifying question helps me to cut down the response-and get to the point.

      Also, might try a brief response followed by “would you like me to go into the details ?” to help curb the talk.

      The “what would you coworkers say” question reminds me of behavioral interview questions. Do you have a list of behavioral questions for practice? I googled and found several. Some very quirky. Use the STAR method to respond. Some have a general theme and the responses can be used for more than just one question.

      1. unrealsnow*

        I think I go on and on just to fill time or when there’s silence. But I do think some of the questions are a bit vague. I like your idea of asking if they want more detail that would help.

        I do not have a list of behavioral questions, but I’ll definitely be looking some up. I wasn’t sure what to call that type of question, which makes it hard to search for. Thank you! I’ll look into that STAR method, too. I should also say that I’ve interviewed a lot over the years for jobs in my field and this is the first institution that has asked behavioral questions.

        1. irene adler*

          They are a thing at some places. Becoming familiar with many of them (plus having some responses ready) will help take the “think fast on my feet” issue.
          Yeah, that silence bit gets me too. I have the need to fill it. With phone interviews, I learned that the silence is them furiously typing away recording my response. So might think of that and let the silence be so they can finish typing.

  145. SciDiver*

    If this is better suited to the Saturday open thread I can repost!

    People who work in dog-friendly offices: any tips for bringing my dog in for the first time? Lots of my coworkers bring their dogs to work and I’ve gotten the okay from my manager (provided the dog isn’t distracting/barking/disruptive). I share an office with a coworker who has met my puppy outside of the office and she’s super excited to have him hang out with us during workdays. The office I work in is fairly small, tucked inside a larger multi-use room. There are people frequently coming and going through the main room (I’ll have a baby gate up in my doorway), and there’s also a lot of sounds (vents, noise from the corridor, etc.).

    I’m planning to take him in on a weekend and hang out for a few hours so he can get used to the space, smells, and noise, and then probably keep his first few visits to half days. Beyond that, I’d love tips from anybody who has an office-going dog! What’s worked well for you? Any strategies you liked or things to avoid?

    1. Mom to Liesl and Fritz*

      Great start on the test drive on the weekend re sounds and noises. Time how long it will take you to get outside for pee breaks and know when you want to schedule those or what’s normal for your dog.

      Start a new bed at home and bring it to work. Make sure they have their space among all your/your office mates stuff; they need a place to chill and get away from it all. Pup tent (seriously) gives them their ‘own cave.

      Water bowl and a mat (splashes) if they’re potty trained and don’t cause a nuisance. Some people restrict water to reduce incidents. You know your pup best.
      A few toys
      A treat ball to keep them engaged
      Training treats to rewards good behavior such as not barking, whining or peeing (assumed they’re potty trained/). Make it random and exciting especially if they’re younger. Share this with your office mate and include them in the training, too.

      Put a note on the gate about what works for your pet such as ‘Please no hands beyond this point’ or ‘Please keep quiet’ or ‘Ask my mom for my treats’. Perhaps a daily update like, “I’m feeling perky today”. The assumption shouldn’t be that your dog is up for grabs because they’re there. And discourage people from accessing the baby gate without permission.

      Do a scope of your desk area for things on the floor and at their height (wires, trash, plants)

    2. WellRed*

      Take him for a good walk in the morning before work. It may tire him out a bit before he gets into work with all the good people.

  146. Overeducated*

    I’m going back to work after maternity leave next week. Any tips on how to handle things like pump breaks? In my last job I had an hour lunch break, now i only have 30 minutes, do I have to skip lunch to pump for the next 9 months? What about other potential issues, like if baby gets sick and i have to take leave even though I technically just took 12 weeks of “leave” (aka my accrued PTO) so in theory I shouldn’t miss any days for a very long time. Do bosses count that like “are you serious, you just had a loooong vacation” or are they generally understanding?

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Does your employer have a policy re pumping? You should have a space to pump and the ability to take the time to do so. I would just initiate that conversation with your manager/HR as appropriate and ask where you’ll be able to pump.

      I find that people in general tend to be understanding re needing to care for an infant, but it can depend on your industry/employer as well. I’m salaried in my current role and have the ability to work from home, so that gives me a ton of extra flexibility. In my last job, I was hourly and if I didn’t have any accrued hours, I would have had to go into the negative (which is frowned upon) and dig myself out of it.

    2. Buttons*

      I think it depends on where you work, but don’t by law they have to allow you time and a place to pump? Also, everyone knows that when you have kids you are going to have to take time off. They get sick.
      Good luck!

      1. Natalie*

        Federally, that only applies to non-exempt employees as it’s an extension of the FLSA. The time also does not have to be paid. However, state laws may be more generous so that’s also worth looking into.

    3. Third or Nothing!*

      I don’t know about skipping lunch to pump; I used my lunch break to go drive to the daycare and nurse my daughter in person. Cause pumping was the WORST.

      My boss set me up in a little private office to use as my pump space. My girls didn’t respond well to the pump so I had to power pump twice a day for an hour. That was too long to be away from my laptop so I started taking it in there to work while I pumped. This is not something you HAVE to do, but it can be helpful if you have a large workload and the pumping breaks are putting you too far behind.

      Pro tip: you don’t have to wash the parts out between sessions if you store them in the fridge. Always wash at the end of the day, though! Also I used those handy microwave sanitizing bags made by Medela and they were so useful. Kept my Boon drying rack at the office so the parts could dry out overnight and be ready for me the next day.

    4. TGIF in Texas*

      When my coworker came back, she put post-its on her door that she was pumping. She did so frequently and that’s life with a new mom in the office. We had done so much office changing while she was gone there was a point that she might have landed in the storage room in an open office. I wasn’t having any of that – she needed a door so I gave up my office for her.

      Yes, babies get sick (and so may you) and you should have the ability to take care of your newborn as needed.. Unless you have a family care plan in which someone else can take care of these things, you will have to leave at some point. Reality crushes theory every time.

      The best bet is to schedule a time with your bosses to discuss the ‘new norm’ for you and how that may/not affect your work, time, and office life. This will be a test of your boss’s care and compassion for you. There’s nothing to say that a non-parent boss won’t be empathetic, I don’t have kids, but I can imagine life with a newborn. Also don’t assume a boss who is a parent, even a mom, will be sympathetic. Sometimes they rely on the fact that they did it – without help or taking breaks – so should you.

      Every office is different but you have to be open about what you need and how you will manage your work and work with others. They’ll appreciate that you brought it up rather them having to do so and or figure it out without knowing your needs.

      Congrats and good luck

    5. LunaMei*

      The answer depends if you are exempt or non-exempt. I believe there are federal laws regarding pumping breaks for non-exempt workers. You can google the laws about it.

      For exempt, they don’t *have* to provide breaks or a space to pump, but usually they will. Just check with HR.

      For PTO – most bosses are understanding. There’s just a crap ton of appointments and illnesses that happen during the first year. I would sit down with your boss and discuss these things just to make sure you’re on the same page.

  147. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    I was out sick the last couple days with some weird flu/cold thing that’s been going around in my city. It’s a 48 hour illness, so I’m back today, but I took Mucinex and got hit HARD with a variety of side effects. I felt like I was tripping for the past hour and a half. Just sat at my desk staring at the screen and clicking occasionally. Finally coming out of it now that I am eating lunch.

    Please share your meds-at-work stories with me! Feeling a little bit goofy for thinking I would be fine.

    1. merp*

      Oh man, mucinex kills me too, I don’t even take it anymore. I’ve also had this happen with migraine meds – the pain doesn’t go away, except now I’m a zombie that can’t safely drive! Learned pretty fast to try those meds at home first. Hope you feel better soon!

      1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

        Same thing happened to me with trying migraine meds.
        Topamax made me feel like there were three fuzzy layers between me and reality and my coworkers were really concerned to see me sit at my desk so out of it. Like a mannequin.

    2. we're basically gods*

      I spent a shift feeling absolutely awful when I was still in retail in college– I’d caught a nasty cold during the busy season, and was desperately trying to work through it, because it was one week of crazy busy time, and I was permanent staff and they needed me to help the temporary workers. I’d run out of cold medicine while on campus, and I asked a friend if he’d be willing to grab me some on his way in for class, but he brought me nighttime cold medicine.
      I weighed my options of untreated cold symptoms vs the loopiness of the cold medicine, and I decided I’d take my chances with taking the medicine. I think it was better than the alternative, but I still felt pretty out of it.

    3. Kat Maps*

      I worked as a cemetery groundskeeper for a few summers during university. I was stung by a bee for the first time in my life, so decided to take a Claritin as a precautionary measure. I didn’t know Claritin would make me SUPER drowsy, so I fell asleep on a lawnmower between rows of headstones…luckily I didn’t drive in to any of them :|

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Double whammy for me:
      I had an upper respiratory infection that just wouldn’t quit, even after a course of antibiotics. Went back to the doctor, and was prescribed a second, different antibiotic and an oral steroid. Picked up the prescriptions on my way back to work, and took the first dose that afternoon.

      Within an hour, I got dizzy enough that I couldn’t work – staring at anything moving (say, someone talking, or my mouse on the screen) made things worse. (Walking was actually OK – I could focus on a fixed horizon point.) Had to get my husband to drive me home.

      Called the pharmacy when I got home (the doctor’s office was closed by the time I realized I could call someone, but the pharmacy was still open). The pharmacist said to continue with the steroid, and call the doctor when they opened. When I called the doctor the next morning, they agreed with the pharmacist and prescribed a second course of the antibiotic I’d taken the first time around.

      Remember the double whammy part? Well, oral steroids are generally taken starting at a high dose and then decreasing. The first morning I took the steroids with my normal morning cup of very strong black tea, and found the stimulant effect from the combination made me effectively unable to focus on anything long enough to get any work done.

      The antibiotic is now in my file under “allergies” (because there isn’t really a section for non-allergic reactions that nevertheless mean you shouldn’t take this), and if I have to take steroids again, I’m taking sick time until I start tapering them down.

    5. WellRed*

      I took a daytime cold medicine while working at my job at a university bookstore. I was a zombie. Luckily no one noticed I sat at my desk zoned out. I think I finally went home early.

    6. LunaMei*

      During my late 20s I started developing allergies to random fruits – that was a super fun time in my life. One day I got some frozen yogurt and put kiwi on it – I used to eat kiwi all the time when I was a kid, but hadn’t eaten it in a few years. So I load up on kiwi, and about 20 min into my treat, I start having horrible stomach cramps, my lips and mouth got itchy, I got dizzy….it was awful. I took the maximum dose benadryl that I could…which made me even loopier. Normally just a half dose of benadryl makes me super sleepy. So I tried to just survive the next few hours in my office, lolled out in my desk chair. People would ask me questions and I would slur my speech and make these huge, ridiculous yawns.

      I let my boss know what was happening, and he said I could go home if I needed to, but I was afraid to drive, so I just waited until the edge had worn off.

    7. Environmental Compliance*

      When I was TA-ing back in college, I had a super bad cough for a couple months. Ended up getting diagnosed with bronchial spasms and given a steriod of some kind, with a warning that this is probably going to make me feel jittery.

      Welp, I fell asleep literally walking to the building to teach. A friend dragged my mostly asleep butt back to the campus doctor. Some blood testing later, it was discovered I had very low levels of ferritin, which apparently led to the near narcolepsy.

      I went home and slept for nearly a week. That was fun.

    8. Forkeater*

      For some reason a bout of the regular flu, not stomach flu, gave me horrible stomach pain that lasted long after the other flu symptoms subsided. I went to the doctor and she told me to take Pepcid. I took one in the morning, and I appeared in the office after with absolutely no recollection of how I’d gotten there. I’ve never felt so strange. It was so odd, I told friend at work to check on me every 20 minutes and call for help if I was unresponsive. It eventually wore off… and I’m sure as heck never taking Pepcid again.

    9. JanetM*

      Some 30 years ago, I was prescribed a course of theophylline for bronchitis, to be taken morning and evening. I took a dose and went to bed.

      The next morning, I took a dose and went to work.

      About two hours later, I was so completely spaced out that I could barely use language — I knew what individual words meant, but couldn’t string together more than three at a time, speaking or listening. I was also running to the bathroom every 20 minutes.

      My boss kept trying to send me home, and I kept refusing because I knew I wasn’t safe to drive. Eventually the guy I was dating was able to pick me up and take me home, and he sat with me until I felt better and could go back and pick up my car.

      At some point he said, “You know, people pay good money to get this high,” and I replied, “Then they’re STUPID! This feels AWFUL!” (For what it’s worth, now that I am older, I understand that some people are not me and that they can enjoy things I find unpleasant. Their kink is okay, and I’ll be elsewhere while they’re engaging in it.)

    10. Delta Delta*

      I was at work the first time I ever took Sudafed. That stuff is *magic.* I went from stuffy with a head cold to no cold symptoms and ALL THE ENERGY! I worked! I cleaned things! I moved boxes! I rearranged stuff! It eventually wore off and I felt okay but my productivity dropped by about a thousand percent.

    11. Tris Prior*

      I take Claritin-D 12-hour regularly with no ill effects, but one time the pharmacy was out so I got the 24-hour. It made me SUPER speed-y and shaky and twitchy and my vision was kind of off and I remember thinking, “This is the stuff they use to make meth. Is this what being on meth feels like? WHY would anyone voluntarily put themselves through this?!? This is terrible!”

      Boyfriend had a tough time with pain after his wisdom tooth surgery so one day he took a (prescribed by the oral surgeon!) Norco at work to deal with the pain. Shortly after, he texted me, “uh….. I think I am HIGH AT WORK. Oh shit!” Oddly, when he’d just been resting at home post-surgery, the meds hadn’t hit him that way.

    12. Oui et A-non for this one*

      Not a meds-at-work, more of a coming-of-meds at work: I’ve started tapering off anti-depression medication this week, and have found that my patience with a rather inept member of our management team has magically evaporated over the past 48 hours. Luckily, I don’t have to be in the office again until Wednesday, so I’m hoping that my brain bounces back and that patience rears its knobby little head before then, or the phrase “You really haven’t got a flying (bleep) clue about what’s going on or what the (bleep) your staff are doing?” might rear its ugly head.

    13. Lyudie*

      Very early in my career I had some kind of sinus/cold thing and went into work really early because I couldn’t sleep (I think I got there at like 6 or 6:30, this is practically the middle of the night for me) and took Sudafed…due to lack of sleep plus Sudafed on an empty stomach, I wound up quite dizzy and head spinning at my desk. Fortunately it subsided by the time I actually had to interact with anyone, so no one knew I’d been sitting at my desk unable to see straight for a good hour.

      I became famous among my dorm friends in college after taking Nyquil during a particularly bad head cold. A storm woke me up, and I looked outside and was sure that I saw white lines flowing past…I thought, wow the wind is blowing so hard it became visible! I made the mistake of telling people this the next morning and I was forever known for being able to see the wind.

    14. IntoTheSarchasm*

      Took Keflex for an infection. Got sent home after arguing with my boss and throwing a chart (medical records department back in the paper days) on the floor after being ask to resolve an issue with it. I was a supervisor, team called boss because I was acting so weird. I remember feeling vividly that I really wanted to hit someone. I knew in my drug-addled brain that it would just be so satisfying to punch someone. I stay away from Keflex now. And, for the record, I have never punched anyone before or since, not my usual default action.

    15. Fikly*

      Does a meds-at-school story count?

      Undergrad, horrible cough, campus health center gives me codeine cough syrup. Yeah.

      I’m in an economics class, and the graphs on the whiteboard start dancing. Somehow I hold it together through the lecture, but at the end I ask the professor how she made that happen. She knew me well enough to know I was not the type of person to be high on a random weekday morning, so asked a classmate to walk me back to the health center. Where I proceeded to become so dizzy I couldn’t stand and then pass out.

      And that is how I learned I cannot take codeine.

  148. Bossy Magoo*

    It’s performance review time and in filling out my self-appraisal, it asks what are my development needs. I struggle with this one and wonder if I’m wrong to think that my boss should have some part in my development plan. I’m always hoping that Boss and Grandboss will say “here’s where the organization is going in the next 5 years (or 1 year), here’s a need we foresee that we think you can fill, here’s how we need to develop you to get you there.”

    Instead, every year I get “is there any training you want us to put in the budget for next year?”

    I can’t tell if how I wish they would approach this is unreasonable, if I need to take the bull by the horns more for my own development, or if I’m in the right about thinking there needs to be more direction from them. And if I’m in the right, any suggestions for how to word this? Last year I said ‘with what you know about the direction we’re moving in, do you see any places you think I can fulfill the needs? And what development would I need to get there?’. It didn’t result in any kind of concrete development plan. What is a normal process for a development plan?

    1. LunaMei*

      I run into this issue as well, so this year I got more direct. I decided that I want to go into management, so I put that I wanted my boss to help mentor me into a management role, take various classes offered by my organization for managers, and cross-train with all my coworkers to get a big-picture idea of their roles and responsibilities. I’m supposed to have my review in a couple weeks to talk with him about this.

      As for how I decided on this course, I monitored the job postings and consumed any information I could about strategic planning or direction for our department – you may or may not have access to this depending on your organization. I work in IT at a state university, and our CIO is very much about keeping everyone informed about the strategic goals for IT. I monitored the job board so I could see what kinds of jobs were being refilled or created, and I’m definitely seeing a need in the management area that I want to go. If you don’t have access to this type of information, you could ask your boss again, or talk to other people you have good rapport with, or ask HR for job listings (I always say I’m looking for jobs for my husband so people won’t get suspicious and gossip, which is mostly true).

      I don’t think it’s unreasonable of you, but sometimes the reality of your organization and/or bosses is that they just don’t really get involved in career development – whether it’s because they’re too busy, they’re not skilled/trained in that, or whatever. So it helps to be proactive and direct. And the worst they can say is no! If they say no, you can ask them why, and that might tease out some more information about organizational direction.

    2. Buttons*

      It should be a joint discussion and decision. I would pick an area you want to develop and then engage your boss by asking what they think is the best way to do that? Training isn’t always the answer. There is mentoring, job shadowing, getting to work on a special project. Training is the easy way out for your boss.
      The other option is to tell your boss what your career goals are and ask them to help you decide what your development plan should be to reach that goal.
      Good luck!

    3. Policy wonk*

      While in a perfect world your boss would advise you, in my experience bosses ars not given any training on this, and where guideline exist they aren’t always helpful. And I have had more than one boss who turns down training requsts because anyone at training isn’t doing real work. You need to be your own advocate here. Where do you want to go with your career? Come up with a couple of suggestions to get the discussion started. With prompt your boss may have some ideas.

  149. Scully*

    I wanted to throw this out there and see what people think. Is it frowned upon to take unpaid time off once you go through your PTO?

    I have 11 vacation days this year. I have family overseas including elderly grandparents so I try to see them every year, so two weeks is already 10 of them. I’m going to a wedding out of town so I’m taking the 11th day for that (it’s on a Friday). And that’s it, if I want to to do anything like take another short trip anywhere that isn’t on a weekend, I’m SOL.

    I have coworkers with more seniority who now get 3-4 weeks in PTO – and they use it, taking either month long trips to their overseas families or several shorter vacations per year. In terms of coverage it’s fine – this is a tech company and if we’re one QA down for a week it’s no big deal. So if I had the PTO it’s not like it’d be outrageous (nor am I complaining that they go – just illustrating that it’s normal in our office to do that and no one frowns upon vacations).

    It’s not like I’d be taking weeks and weeks extra but I’d like to take 2-3 extra days off this year and I don’t mind them being unpaid. But I do worry that my manager will see this request as something outrageous and like I’m being a slacker or something, or not paying my dues (I’ve been here over a year though).

    I know this is a company culture thing but considering that none of my managers are super rigid workaholic types or anything, and everyone takes plenty of their PTO….. what’s the norm?!

    (PS – sick days are separate, there’s less of them per year, and I do keep them for actual illnesses. But obv having to take unpaid sick leave is a different issue, it’s not like it’s planned or enjoyable. I’m strictly talking about vacations. And calling in sick on a Friday to use a sick day for a long weekend trip is out of the question, I have too much anxiety to pull that off lmao.)

    1. ThatGirl*

      I think the norm is to only take unpaid days off in case of something unexpected or unusual, honestly – not just because you want a long weekend off (not that I blame you for that!)

      Would it be possible to shorten your overseas trip a little and/or combine it with a company holiday?

    2. Bananatiel*

      I’m not going to be the best person to answer this but based on friends that take unpaid PTO off past their allotted vacation time– they almost always have seniority to back it up (like a friend that takes an extra ~5 days a year but has 10yrs in at that org). Then again I feel like if it’s not a busy time and there’s coverage and all that– I don’t see why an extra 2-3 days would be a big deal!

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      In my experience, this has typically only been allowed for major life events, but it really depends on your employer and work culture.

    4. CheeryO*

      That wouldn’t fly in my office unless it was a very unusual circumstance. I would call in sick on a Friday before I asked for an extra unpaid day off, but we also get more generous PTO, so that’s easy for me to say! If you end up needing another long weekend for a trip or something, I think you could ask, but I’d definitely frame it in a way that makes it clear that it’s a one-time thing.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My org doesn’t allow unpaid time off, but we can go in the red on our PTO (all one bucket) up to 5 days.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is absolutely something that varies with each workplace.

      AAM seems to lean towards “Unpaid time off is unheard of and unacceptable unless it’s an emergency.”

      But in my life, over the last 20 years of working, nobody cares…we have always accepted unpaid time off without anything. But we’re also an industry that has to be more flexible if we want to you know…not just have people quit.

    7. Six Degrees of Separation*

      I think this is one where you have to know the culture and boss. I did this once when both of my in-laws were sick abroad, and it was absolutely OK. Definitely have a reason, even if it is a wedding out of town. I wouldn’t ask for unpaid more than once in a couple years though…

    8. Scully*

      Thanks for all the replies! You guys have confirmed what my gut was already telling me. I just needed the perspective of people who’ve been in the workforce longer than me. I’ll just have to make the most of long weekends (the ones that are statutory holidays already)!

      I love my job and it does give me great benefits on the whole. When all is said, I’m grateful for it, and that I can afford fun trips at all.

    9. Ann O'Nemity*

      11 vacation days is stingy, so I wouldn’t judge you for wanting to take some extra unpaid days. Talk to your boss to see how they feel.

  150. Marian the Librarian*

    I have an Academic Librarian interview and besides the interview, there is a “20 min hands on instruction session”. What does this mean? Do I have to teach or do something? I’m not sure what this means.

    1. merp*

      Does the position involve information literacy at all? I would interpret this as a presentation like you might be invited to give in a college class about library resources. The hands on part could just be a clue that they aren’t looking for just a powerpoint, since it’s hard for students to absorb info that way – all the ones I ever did included example searches, either on computers in the room or just brainstorming search terms and paper topics without actually doing it.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      You will probably be teaching. I would pick one specific component of information literacy or library instruction and come up with a short demonstration and activity. Make yourself familiar with any resources, databases, or other tools that the library offers and use these if you can. Even if you aren’t presenting this to actual students, pretend you have a designated class or group in mind and give it like you would to those students. Maybe a freshmen orientation, English 101, or public speaking.

    3. blepkitty*

      Yes, you will most likely have to teach! It’s worth contacting them to ask if there are further instructions, like if there are specific topics they’d like you to cover or a target audience (ime the actual audience is always librarians or other faculty, but they’ll want you to target the session at a specific group, like first-year undergrads). You’ll also probably want to know what technology you’ll have access to. So those are specific things you can ask about if you want to contact them to clarify.

      Some academic libraries will simply have you do a presentation on a topic related to the position, so keep that in mind if you’re applying for other academic librarian positions.

      Good luck!

    4. tape deck*

      Agreeing with the others, yes, this sounds to me like they want a presentation like you would give to students about library resources. But it’s also okay to ask for more details. You probably don’t want to be like, “what’s an instruction session?” but you could ask if there’s anything in particular they’d like you to focus on. That might help you start to narrow down the possibilities and choose something to focus on.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        I would not advise this. I’ve been the person arranging these on many occasions and we can’t give more information to one candidate than we give the others at both the places I have worked.

        1. blepkitty*

          If that’s the case, the hiring committee can just respond that they can’t give out more info. I wouldn’t want to work for someone who was upset I’d asked for clarification about my interview (or, frankly, couldn’t be bothered to give more instruction for the presentation than a vague statement on the schedule), and it’s not an unreasonable question. Sometimes the instruction information is sent separately from the rest of the schedule. It’s not a great use of OP’s time if they prep a session on database searching and then get instructions saying to do something on dissecting a citation, especially if they’re new to the area and don’t already have instruction materials they can draw from.

          1. Sarah-tonin*

            i second this!

            i had an interview for an academic librarian position a couple weeks ago and i did have to teach. they gave me what they wanted me to cover in the schedule, but if they hadn’t, i would have asked. it’s def a reasonable thing to want to know, and if i got the impression that they were annoyed or upset, that would affect how i viewed them (since i’m interviewing them as well).

            good luck op! :)

    5. GigglyPuff*

      Yes. 99% of academic library jobs that are professional will require a presentation. Staff ones a less likely. I apply to other depts., so I don’t do instruction ones but usually they send pretty clear presentation prompt/instructions, mine are usually talk about a project I’ve worked on or a hypothetical approach on a project they have upcoming. You can definitely ask for more information. Instruction geared towards who? Topic preference? I did sit in on one in undergrad for a reference/instruction job, and all the applicants were told to present like they were talking to freshmen class on the library catalog.

      Good luck, the first one is always the worst. I was totally shaking, clearly reading off my notecards, my screenshots were blurry on the large screen, saying more “uh’s” than usually. But it had been years since I presented. Since then I’ve done a lot, it gets easier with practice. Bring water.

    6. CrazyKetoLady*

      I am offering this as a former professor who worked on revamping the composition programs at our school. We got the librarian involved, and she did amazing work on instructional videos.

      You may not have access to the library resources at the school to show how to navigate them/link a university account to Google Scholar, but you could probably present on something like finding/evaluating sources, understanding the research process (preliminary research vs. specific research, etc.), citation (including, perhaps, some of the generators like Citation Machine), or how to write an annotated bibliography. Many of those things would probably be covered in a composition class, but they are also things that a student would likely ask a librarian for help with.

  151. Beatrice*

    My husband is hell-bent on hiring his nephew to work for him, and I can’t talk him out of it. He’s made the decision to hire fringe friends/acquaintances in the past, which I’ve strongly advised against every single time, and it’s worked out badly a couple of times. He’s still dead set on doing it, again, and there’s nothing I can say to change his mind. He has a job opening and his nephew is stuck in a terrible, toxic, miserable job, and he thinks it’ll work out okay. I know it won’t, but he isn’t hearing me.

    Any advice for me? I can’t change his mind, so that’s not what I’m looking for. I’m going to limit how much I listen/support him through any drama that ensues. There’s a potential it could affect his relationship with his family/my inlaws if it goes badly…they’re all overly involved in each others’ lives and messily codependent, so now he’ll have family members opining on his work life and possible family impact to his work decisions, which just makes my skin crawl to think about, so I think I’ll limit my time with his family and my openness to hearing about his family’s involvement in his work life. What am I not thinking of?

    1. Kathenus*

      It sounds like you’ve done what you can, as far as talking to him, and more would be counterproductive. I’d work on a couple of things that may sound at odds with each other. First, figure out a couple of stock responses if he does complain about it in the future that are NOT – ‘I told you so’ – maybe ‘that sounds frustrating’ or something and refuse to engage further. Second, I’d suggest stop thinking of all the possible negative scenarios with his family, so you don’t either inadvertently advertise these through your tone or body language or create a self-fulfilling prophecy where you read all negative family interactions through the lens of this hire.

      1. valentine*

        I’d be worried about when this will bleed over if he can’t admit it when he can finally see you were right, can’t fire the nephew because the family will hammer him, and can’t talk to you (which is fair) or them about it. How is his side of the family not going to be a weird elephant in the room for the two of you? Has he any interest in ending the codependency?

        Would he be swayed by the letter where the couple’s banning a creep one room at a time and the final room is the bathroom, when they should’ve fired him ages ago?

  152. Cendol*

    Late to this, but do any librarians have experience transitioning from corporate librarianship to public libraries? (Or from corporate librarianship to other roles?) It’s a pipe dream at this stage, but I’ve been trawling INALJ and reading Career Transitions for Librarians and would be interested in hearing how it’s gone for you.

    1. Peter Wimsey*

      I’ve done all of the above: corporate to public, (and then public to corporate), and librarianship to other roles. My first FT role out of library school was in corporate, and it was a mess. (Solo librarian but with multiple bosses, no budget, no support, and no room for advancement.) After two years I was burned out, so I quit and eventually ended up with a PT gig at a public library (wanted to go PT for personal reasons as well). I eventually wanted more challenge than the PT public job, so found a PT corporate job. Laid off from that, I then found a FT corporate strategy job, where I’ve been for more than a decade. I’ve enjoyed the ability to deepen my skills from just finding, giving, and pointing people to information into understanding, analyzing, and presenting the information in order to drive decision making.

      1. Cendol*

        Thanks, Lord Peter! Based on your description of your current role, I vaguely suspect we may be colleagues. :) I’m feeling some burnout too and eyeing public PT gigs but am basically concerned about making ends meet. How long did you stay in your PT gig?

        1. Sarah-tonin*

          i’m trying to go from public libraries to academic so yay for librarians moving to other “fields!” :)

  153. brighidg*

    Is it worth it to leave a job for one that might not be much better?

    I have been in my current role for almost six years. I had intended on staying at this company long-term as it offers many chances for movement if not up the ladder than lateral moves. About a year ago my boss decided we needed more people doing what I am doing and he and his boss started hiring more people to take on this role. The first person he hired made $7,000 dollars more than me despite having no background in this industry something that is needed to do the job. I had to train her on this. I know this because I sat in on her interview and when she left 6 months later because she did not like my boss, I asked her to confirm that she got the amount she asked for. I told the temp who joined our team what to ask for when it came time to be hired. She asked for the same amount and got it. She also had no background in this industry as well and I had to train her on this.

    The only tangible difference is their jobs are under corporate whereas mine is under the specific branch as at the time the job was created that was the only place they could put me. So along with doing the same thing as the other two, I also do admin work for the branch. My boss has been reluctant in the past to move me because he wants to keep the headcount though I have asked repeatedly. I also told him point blank a month ago that I knew I was not being paid the same as the other two. He said he would get back to me on this but as of yet has not and is still interviewing for another person.

    During this month I have also been interviewing and it looks everything I have interviewed for so far would put me back doing what I used to do and being paid about the same as I am now. I am wondering if it’s worth it to make the jump if I do get an offer.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Short answer: Maybe.

      Reasons to leave:
      -Your boss and company have demonstrated that they undervalue you and they aren’t open to fixing that. In fact, they are openly okay with you knowing that they undervalue you.
      -Your boss is preventing you from moving on, which means the benefit of lateral moves isn’t actually real for you.
      -Another job may value you appropriately with pay increases, some sort of flexibility that you don’t have and want, and/or the ability to move up or transfer laterally

      Reasons to stay:
      -This job is stable (presumably) and funds the aspects of your life that are fulfilling to you
      -It’s comfortable, of the “you’re stuck in a rut and you’re okay with that” flavor

      Personally, I would move on.

  154. SadAtWork*

    I am hoping for some advice. This is long and sad, so skip if you are not in the right frame of mind for it!

    My amazing dad has entered hospice this week and is probably not long for this world. I am relatively young and just started my current job 5 months ago, so no FMLA or anything like that is available yet.

    I am pretty much a complete mess and every thought is consumed by everything to do with my dad. I am basically the only family he has (he has no wife, his mom is not well herself and is elderly), and death apparently requires lots of paperwork and meetings and phone calls. I have never experienced anything like this before.

    How can I get through work during this time? I just don’t care about my work and just want to be with my dad while he is still here, or just hide and cry. How does anyone do this? Any advice on what helped others who have gone through this, any accommodations from work that helped?

    1. brighidg*

      Does your job have an EAP program? That might be able to direct you towards people that can help with everything. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you told your manager about what’s going on? That would be my first suggestion, there may be something that your company has in place to assist you. But at very least they can try to take things off your plate if possible and lighten your load. Lots of managers want to make this easier for you and in the end, preserve an otherwise good employees ability to work throughout this kind of thing.

      Do you have any PTO/Sick leave? I know it’s only been 5 months but some places would have front loaded you by now, so that could be a possibility. They may be able to offer you flexibility as well if you talk to your manager.

      I’m so sorry to hear about your dad. I wish I could be more helpful, my dad was gravely ill and we almost lost him. And I found my comfort actually keeping my routine and working. But not everyone is like that and it wrecks your entire ability to give any attention or care towards your work situation. You aren’t alone.

      Have you tried looking for grief counseling? Is there an EAP that is available? If you don’t know, that’s something your manager or HR may be able to assist you with getting connected with.

      1. HRlady*

        I second talking to your manager. Hopefully, if it is a good work place they will try to work with you. If you don’t have enough leave time maybe you can arrange to take it unpaid. At least your manager and you have reached an agreement why you are not at work. In addition, I think most places should have some sort of bereavement leave (which would be paid time) for the passing of a family member. My only other thought, though this is sort of drastic, is that if they can’t find a way to accommodate you is “do you still want to work there?”. If they can’t find any lee way maybe it’s not a very kind work environment. Plus you’ve only been there 5 months so you shouldn’t have too much on your plate to transition off. If you can afford it or have the support, maybe you can take the time to focus on your dad now and then focus on finding a job later. But that should only be a last resort.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          In my experience Bereavement leave is actually unpaid, so you’ll want to double check when the necessary time comes.

          That should be in your employee handbook though.

    3. Quill, CCO & Bee Queen*

      Most of my advice isn’t work related, but absolutely do reach out for support. Is your dad a member of a religious community? A rabbi, pastor, etc. probably knows some things about what paperwork needs to be filed after death, and when that needs to be done.

      Try to outsource the work of living – any friends or neighbors who offer help can be told “I’m trying to hold it together but I’m having trouble juggling all this and making dinner,” if that’s a source of extra stress for you, and traditionally, this is 100% why people bring casseroles after a funeral. Give yourself permission to let the house be messy.

      Keep a folder or file of what you *have* done so you don’t have to remember. Give Grandma a copy so she can be the touchstone with your cousins /second cousins/ whoever about the arrangements, as she’s likely the one who has a phone tree of all your distant relatives to begin with.

      And prioritize spending time with your dad over all these things because pretty much all of them don’t have to be done before the actual death.

    4. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      I don’t have much advice, but I am just so sorry. Can you bring this up to your manager at all to at least let them know what you are going through? Do you have any friends or family that might be able to help you with the end of life logistics?

    5. OyHiOh*

      Learn to be direct and to the point.

      If your employer has an EAP, see what resources you have there
      You dad’s hospice program probably has counseling and other services available to family – use them, even if it doesn’t feel like you need them right now.

      For the “how are you” type enquiries, I went with a couple variations on “I’m upright and present.”

      For the “is there anything you need/anything I can do” equiries, I learned very quickly to respond “tell me what you can do – I’ll be in touch” (make a list with emails/phone numbers, name, and what they’re up for – don’t depend on your fractured memory to recall who said this or that). This gave me some control over the situation. I didn’t have people randomly showing up and fussing at me. I had that one person who was willing to catch up on laundry once a week. I had those two people who were willing to bring over a meal (and watch me eat it!). I had that neighbor who would check on the cats when I couldn’t. Etc

    6. Chronic Overthinker*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I have three pieces of advice for you: One, tell your manager. Two, check out the EAP program (if any) your company might have. Three; I actually suggest getting a lawyer (Probate) as they can walk you through all the paperwork and help you get a handle on everything legal-wise. That might alleviate some stress and help you focus a bit more on work.

    7. Grief Sucks*

      I am so sorry you’re dealing with this. You have all my empathy. I’ve been in a similar situation recently, and honestly, being open about it with my boss and coworkers was the most helpful thing. People are usually kind and understanding when you give them the chance to be, and many of them will have dealt with death in their own lives and will be able to empathize. Even if you can’t get FMLA (which is the legal minimum your job has to allow you, not a limitation on them!) or some other kind of leave, you’ll likely at least be cut some slack on the things that are harder for you to do when you have this weighing on you

      Also, not necessarily work-related, but a piece of unsolicited advice nonetheless: yes, death involves a surprising amount of paperwork – having a will can cut down on that a drastic amount. If he doesn’t own much and you’re the only family it might seem superfluous. But even in that situation, without any significant property or wealth to hand down, having a will still mitigates a lot of the bureaucratic nonsense of death.

      If he does have a will, figure out where it is, and try to make sure you have access to anything you might need to find necessary documents (computer passwords, phone numbers for accounts you will need to cancel, keys to lockboxes, etc.). Saying all this feels callously pragmatic, and it certainly isn’t necessary, but knowing about some of it would have saved me so many headaches on top of my heartache.

  155. Canarian*

    Recently a person applying to my workplace (about 30 people) sent a friend request and a message to *every single person* on LinkedIn who works here (and to my knowledge, some former employees too). The message is something very bland and networky about how he’d like to learn more about my workplace, but it was still weird and intrusive. It came up during a recent casual break-room conversation and a person who works on the hiring team interjected to say it’s against the rules to talk about potential candidates outside of the hiring process. I get that rule for people on the hiring team, and for things that happen in interviews and on applications, but didn’t this guy kind of bring it on himself that we would be comparing notes about his weird behavior?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That’s a really weird rule. What is the hiring process…? I agree that a reasonable person would say that anything that a candidate does is part of the hiring process. I also agree that not everyone is reasonable.

      And, yes, the candidate’s approach to job searching is weird (and it doesn’t seem like they understand how networking works, at least from my U.S. perspective).

  156. qjames*

    I’ve been venting for weeks here and finally so, so, so relieved to say: I GOT A NEW JOB! I’m quitting this black hole of despair and misery!!! Just today, my coworker started drinking at her desk at 11am, and for once it’s NOT MY PROBLEM.

      1. qjames*

        Believe me, it’s such a misery pit here, I don’t even blame her for drinking, she gets worse treatment than I do… just being witness to the craziness has been draining. It all comes from bad leadership at the top. My exit interview will be glorious! Thank you!

    3. Nanc*

      Congrats on getting out of Consolidated Industries! (a 9 to 5 reference for those readers who aren’t of a certain age!)

  157. GraduatelikeGwenyth*

    Okay, this may sound rather Gwyneth Paltrow esque but would the idea of a “cooperative leave plan” be something to discuss/have with a manager? For context, I am currently getting a masters degree in a totally different field. It will take at least 2-3 years to finish the program. Ideally I will be finding work in my new field by the end or just before I graduate. In addition I would like to take on at least one in-person internship to get experience in the field (I’m still struggling with how to handle the issue of the in-person internship since most operate during normal working hours which would conflict with my current job). At my current job we recently a hired a new manager (thank goodness!), who seems really nice, relaxed, focused and proactive. I think we are close in age (30s-40s). The new manager wants have meetings with everyone individually to discuss our job duties and goals. I’m wondering if broaching the topic of my schooling might be a good idea.

    The idea of a “cooperative leave plan” is sort of a theoretical question but I’m curious if you think it is something that could actually work. What I mean by “cooperative leave plan” is that the manager and the employee are both on the same page that the employee is currently studying for and will eventually be looking for employment in another field but most likely that wouldn’t happen for another 2-3 years and then when the employee is looking for work the manager could be aware of it. Since this would be happening over 2-3 years the employees responsibilities could be scaled accordingly. In theory, if the manger and the employee are on the same terms for phasing the employee out of employment it would be no surprises for the manger or the employee when the employee leaves. But I know the reality is most likely “well if you don’t want to work for us then we’re not going to find you a valuable employee”. I’m thinking that if my manager and I can be on the same page for my goal to be that I’ll be transitioning out of my job in 2-3 years that would make it a more positive experience for all but I know that people/bosses/company culture doesn’t usually work in an “ideal” way.

    For any additional context, this job is essentially my second “real” job. It is a good job but one I have realized is not the job/field for me. I am now in my early 30s and finally figured out what I would enjoy doing for a career path. I’m thinking that these aspects (my age and job history) may lend themselves to more understanding regarding why I want to move into a new field.

    1. fposte*

      I’m thinking 1) “leave” isn’t the term you’re looking for, because you don’t seem to be talking about time off but quitting and 2) this is a lot of verbiage to describe something that a manager probably already knows if they know you’re in grad school: that your days there are numbered.

      2-3 years is waaaay too far in the future for a manager to need to know and change plans now, though, and I would definitely not bring it up in the first meeting with a new manager. Even in the slow-moving, annually contracted field of academics you wouldn’t get more than a year’s notice of departure, and it’s not like your co-workers are promising to be there in three years either.

      So I’d say at least for the moment that you’re overthinking this and that you shouldn’t do anything. In a year or so when you have a better idea of your departure date, your manager, and the time cycle of commitments you can reconsider, but honestly, employees leaving is not that big a deal, managers don’t usually need months upon months of preparation, and there’s a risk of it making your work worse and not better if you’re premature on this.

      1. valentine*

        I’m thinking that if my manager and I can be on the same page for my goal to be that I’ll be transitioning out of my job in 2-3 years that would make it a more positive experience for all
        There’s no good way to ask for buy-in on treating your job as a side gig. What’s the benefit to them? You want them to cut back your hours over the years and reassign your work? Why wouldn’t they just hire someone who wants to do the job for the next few years?

        The biggest wrench in your plan is that this is a new manager and, even if the could agree to this, how soon might the tide turn? All kinds of things could happen to change your job and negatively impact your plan, like a new manager or the job becoming more challenging or one day including seasons that conflict with school.

    2. CM*

      I think you’re right that it would be better for everyone if you could just be honest about your plans and not have that put you in financial jeopardy. Unfortunately, I think the only way to achieve that is for all of us to transfer to an economic system where people don’t have to be employed in order to meet their basic needs, and that’s not going to happen soon.

      The situation being what it is, it’s probably safer if you don’t bring up your impending departure too much. If your new manager is trying to get to know you and understand your goals, I think it’s fine to say that you’re happy with the way things are now, or that you’d like to do more of a certain kind of work or whatever, but I wouldn’t start talking about mid-term plans to leave, just in case that puts you at risk.

  158. Hopeful*

    I had an interview this week and there were so many red flags. I was sent the position through a staffing agency, so I didn’t apply directly to the position or speak with the employer beforehand.

    #1: I was interviewing for two different positions at the same time, but I wasn’t told it beforehand. The staffing agency sent my resume over for Position A, but the agency said they wanted to interview me for Position B. I prepared for the interview for Position B, but when I got there, I ended up interviewing for both positions.

    #2: When I asked about the company culture, the interviewers described it as a “dysfunctional family.” I know Alison has said that companies that describe their workplace as a family is a red flag and describing it as a dysfunctional family made me incredibly wary.

    #3: In the conversation about describing the workplace culture, one of the interviewers started describing how he flipped off his predecessor when she left. According to him, he’s been texting middle finger emojis to her and was in the process of getting her address to mail them to her. I don’t know if that was a running joke between them, but it felt incredibly inappropriate to do in the first place, let alone tell a potential job candidate about it.

    I credit AskAManager for helping me recognize the potential red flags in an interview and for the confidence to tell the staffing agency about the interview and that I wanted to withdraw myself from consideration for the position. I was laid off from an incredibly dysfunctional workplace and I didn’t want to go through that again. Has anybody else run into red flags during the interview process?

    1. Nanc*

      Holy moly! Not just red flags–the deepest, darkest crimson banners with tarnished gold fringe and being flown upside down!
      The biggest red flag I ever encountered was being asked my astrological sign (mind you this was 25 years ago . . . ) and the interviewers all stating their signs and referencing an horoscope compatibility book to ask follow up questions about how I would handle potential conflicts with the other signs who, according to the book, didn’t really mesh with my Libra tendencies. Two Sagittariuses and a Scorpio on the interview panel.
      I love a good horoscope but yeesh–not a way to make a good hire!

    2. irene adler*

      Yep!
      I interviewed for this very small food supplement company.
      First, they kept pressing me for a salary- even before there was any chance to ask about the job particulars.
      Second, when I asked what did the predecessor to the position do that they liked best, the response was, “can’t say. She was only here a couple of months. Then she left.” No further explanation.
      Third, they offered me the job-BUT!- No, I could not see the employee manual prior to accepting the job.

      Dysfunctional family- they admitted to this? Wow, makes ya wonder : how did they think that would play out for candidates. “Oh, yes, that’s great! I thrive in dysfunction! Bring it on!”

    3. Alex*

      Well at least they showed you who they were!

      I interviewed for a job a few years ago with the person who would be my boss. Another person who worked for her mistakenly thought that she was supposed to sit in on the interview. The person who would be my boss yelled at her in front of me about her mistake and told her to get out. Then during the interview, she described herself as “a very difficult person and hard to work for” as though it were a badge of honor.

      I was grateful she showed her true colors so I could NOT pursue that job any further.

  159. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    I just started a new job a couple months ago, and I LOVE the job, but the health insurance is absolutely terrible. I went from paying maybe a couple hundred bucks a year for all of my appointments and prescriptions, to calculating that I’ll now pay several thousand, and that’s with GoodRX instead of my actual insurance for all prescriptions, and if I get hurt or seriously ill, who even knows what’ll happen.

    Long run, this is going to shorten my tenure at this organization. Has anyone left a company because of benefits? What’s a reasonable time to stay without burning a bridge, when leaving because you just can’t live worrying about having a medical emergency that you can’t pay for, etc.?

    This all sucks, I love my job, but they’re making the plan worse next year, and all the negative feedback is getting ridicule from my colleagues who clearly don’t understand the difference between good and bad coverage.

    1. Young Neil*

      I can’t even afford the medical insurance at my job. I can get better coverage through the ACA. Sorry, I know this doesn’t answer your question. I would say, stay a year if you can.

      1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        I wish we had serious ACA options in my state, but I don’t qualify for subsidies anyway. I was thinking at least a year as well – guess I’ll re-evaluate my finances and options after year one and tell them honestly why I’m leaving if I do make the choice. In the meantime, here’s hoping for a president that supports health care reform…

    2. whocanpickone*

      Depending on what your resume looks like, I would start applying around the six month mark. It might take a bit to find something, and you have a ready-made reason why you are looking.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, it is completely understandable to leave a job for bad insurance. I was shocked when I switched jobs and my copays went up to $50/$100 plus the huge deductible. I’ve been wary of staying for the same reasons.

        1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

          Glad I’m not crazy for even considering it. My field’s very hard to find jobs in, but now I’ll feel a little less guilt about bailing if I find something with better coverage. Though unfortunately, I think a lot of employers are sticking with these terrible high deductible plans that basically punish you for being sick. Sigh.

  160. lalalalala*

    I want to get out of accounting and into programming or IT or a merger. Anyone has done this?

    My options is to sit for the CMA exam, coding classes, or Netsuite certifications.

    Any ideas?

    1. irene adler*

      Which of these are the job descriptions asking for?

      Might locate a professional organization for the IT industry and if they have a local chapter, ask them to advise you. Their members will know the job market and which option will have the ‘best bang for the buck’ for scoring the kind of jobs you want.

  161. Young Neil*

    I work for a small college. Enrollment is down, and the college recently finished a big campus improvement project that seems to have cut into their profits. We’ve been told there are going to be salary cuts, golden parachutes and cuts to the college’s contributions to our retirement plan. This in addition to a new administration coming on board very soon. Is this a giant red flag? Should I be looking for another job? Any advice?

    1. fposte*

      A lot of small colleges are struggling. Given that yours seems to be among them, I’d definitely consider looking around, and it’s probably good to start early as you won’t be the only person looking. However, that doesn’t mean I’m saying “Jump ship now!” It’s time to see what else is out there and also to think not just about what the changes mean but whether this is still a workplace that suits you as it goes through a period of strain and change–the answer could be “I’m not going to get a better job within my geographical limitations and I think I can rise to the challenge here.”

    2. blackcat*

      Are you faculty?
      If so, yes, absolutely, since finding a job is often a years long process.
      If not, probably. But it’s less urgent.

    3. anonnonnon*

      Ugh, I am sorry, YoungNeil. That’s rough. You have my sympathy. I’d look because it’s always better to be looking when you are not in a place of crisis and you can afford to be picky & find something you’re genuinely excited about.

  162. Anna G.*

    Any advise on dealing with your own perfectionism when therapy *isn’t* an option?

    I’m a perfection to a fault. I’ll redo entire pages of a report simply because there is one mistake, re-write handwritten documents if my writing isn’t neat enough, etc. Like, serious problem, affects my work life and outside-of-work life, is absolutely awful and I hate it. For the most part, though, I tolerate it well.

    Except on days like today.

    Today, my boss caught what I can recognize is a minor oversight on something I turned in, gave me a head’s up (i.e., “Hey, I’m adding this to the thing.”), and that was six hours ago and I’m still dwelling on it.

    Today, my boss e-mailed me about an ongoing communication error (i.e., I say, “You have been recommended, but Wakeen has the final say,” and people hear, “I’ve been accepted.” And I say this every time because I use the same script I’ve crafted, because I’m a perfectionist even in interacting with others, sigh.)

    Anyway, it’s put me in a funk mood and, knowing me, I’ll probably stay in that funk mood I sleep it off.

    2. bdg*

      No specific advice, but man this sucks. I used to be that way at work, and the only things that helped are:

      1. My mentor and later supervisor , who had INTENSE perfectionism tendencies, finally let up on her behaviors. We were all very, very close to being laid off and she kind of realized that her whole life was work and needed to take a step back. Seeing her make grammatical errors in emails and send stuff off without 6 proof reads was immensely helpful.

      2. My dad (who worked for the same company as me, was known for being a technical expert, etc) died. It just sort of put it all in perspective. My dad loved his job, spent a lot of time there, and then he still died. Like, at the end, we all die. I don’t know, that’s not worded very well, but there was a big shift for me after he was diagnosed with cancer. I just didn’t care about getting a supervisor position or being the best anymore, I just wanted to be good, enjoy my work, and go home and do more fun things. I think there was a sci-fi writer being interviewed the other day, and when asked “what’s your dream job?” he said “I do not dream of labor” and like… yes! There are a lot of things I care about more than my job. I would rather be a perfectionist in the things that are actually fun than in the things that just pay me a salary.

    3. irene adler*

      For some things, I am allowing myself to follow the 80/20 rule. Is something in the 20% -has to be perfect or can it be part of the 80% that ‘good enough’ suffices?

    4. CheeryO*

      Do you have enough in your life outside of work? I promise I don’t mean that in an accusatory way, but I’ve noticed that my perfectionism at work has gotten much, much better since I started being more intense about my hobby (running). I can channel all of my over-analytical tendencies into something that’s fun for me AND something that actually gets better results from being more precise.

      You could also ask your boss for more feedback, especially if you have a friendly relationship. Maybe this is just me, but my perfectionism partly comes from a place of insecurity. As soon as it finally got drilled into my head that yes, I was doing a good job at my job, I started feeling less pressure to be 10000% perfect at all times.

      1. Anna G.*

        I have some hobbies, but most (writing, quilting) fall victim to the perfectionism as well so I don’t really do them much (writing, for example, I haven’t done since April of last year, and quilting since June of last year). I keep wanting to do them more but I can’t get over a mental block.

        Reflecting on today, and with regards to actual work, I think a major issue is that I’m usually a high performer and the employee my boss uses as an example to others. Not *openly* to them, thank goodness, but I’ve definitely been told I’m the only one who can be trusted to do certain major projects right. It lays the pressure on pretty heavy.

  163. John S*

    I graduated in 2015 with a degree in Exercise Science. I wasn’t able to find a job in my field and now I work at a grocery store part time for just above minimum wage. Almost 70% of my paychecks go to my loans. I also owe roughly 80k in student loans and live with my parents

    I’ve been unable to get any interviews for entry level white collar jobs. I fear that my degree is now useless and I’ll never be able to make more than minimum wage.

    Do you think I have a chance of ever landing a “real” job? I’ve been extremely depressed these last few years because of my situation and am considering ending my life if things don’t improve

    1. John S*

      The only jobs I’ve had post-graduation have been at warehouse and my current job at a grocery store. I’ve been applying to 100’s of jobs a week and can’t get a single callback despite several people helping me with my resume

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      John, I’m so sorry to hear about your difficult time.

      Please always remember that there are people who you can talk to:
      National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
      Call 1-800-273-8255

      1. John S*

        Thank you, but those people won’t help me get a job nor pay for my student loans. If I can’t find employment then I have no choice but to end my life.

        1. MissBliss*

          John, I can empathize with how it feels to be in the black hole. It is possible to get out of the black hole but it’s goddamn difficult, I’m sorry.

          This is not job advice, but NPR recently did a story about how many people believe you can’t get bankruptcy loan forgiveness for student loans, but that it’s not actually true. That may be something to look into, if you have access the resources to hire a lawyer. It sounds like that might be a stretch, but I wanted to mention that resource to you. It’s been something I’ve been talking to friends about lately.

          I wish you the speediest exit from the black hole.

    3. Commuter*

      Do you live anywhere near a University? Universities are always hiring and have loads of different entry-level positions. What sort of places are you applying to? What sort of things are you interested in? What about a skilled trade? At least where I am unions train you, provide insurance, and keep you employed. There are union dues, but these are also positions where you get regular raises and they pay very competitively.

      I’m so sorry that you’re feeling this way. Please take care of yourself and know that you can always reach out for help.

    4. CatCat*

      Yes, you absolutely have a chance of landing a job different than your current part-time job at a grocery store. If you’d like a white collar job, would you consider doing office temp work? Are there temp agencies in your area? It can be a good way to build office job experience.

      I had a depressive stretch of unemployment, and then ended up temping for a couple of years when I had a hard time finding a permanent job. It was not high paying and I lived with my mom in that time, but I got solid experience and references and was eventually hired to permanent at one of the jobs.

      Please, please call the number Tableau Wizard posted for help with your suicidal thoughts.

      1. John S*

        Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I’m “too good” for entry level or temp roles. I’d kill for a temp job in an office. I’ve tried several recruiting agencies like AppleOne, AeroTek, Robert Half, etc. It’s always the same thing: The recruiter calls me, gets some basic info from me, seems very excited, tells me they’ll call me when they find a perfect opportunity, and then I never hear from them again.

        I’m assuming they see my resume and realize they can’t place me anywhere and just move on to the next person. Since they make commission only on the people who get hired, why would they waste their time on me?

        1. CatCat*

          My experience with temp agencies is that you need to keep checking in with them a couple times per month with your availability. Also, if they have any skills training available, use it for office job skills. I took Excel training through one (literally just went into the agency office and did the training modules on one of their computers, they may have stuff like this online now) and that helped me with getting placements at the time.

          For my current field, the recession struck while I was in school and the writing was on the wall that I was likely to graduate with no job. I did volunteer work to help build up my resume and gain experience and positive work references. I did end up graduating with no job, but that volunteer experience really helped improve my resume and gave me solid things to talk about in interviews and did help me with eventually getting a job. So if volunteer experience may be an option with your schedule, that is also worth pursuing.

          1. CatCat*

            Also, is a call center an option? Probably not going to be awesome, but may have more hours available and can gain good customer service experience. My spouse recently did that for like 9 months after being unemployed ,then underemployed part-time retail, then full-time at the call center. It was just an “okay” job, but paid the bills, and gave him some good skills that worked well at a job he recently started.

            1. Mia 52*

              I vote call center too! Some of the bigger places hire easily and yeah its not THE BEST but there’s usually plenty of hours and sometimes benefits. Other ideas:
              Rev- video captioning website that you can do as long as you have a computer and internet access
              Your current job- Could you go full time at your grocery store just to boost income? Any opportunities to move up to lead, assistant manager, etc.?
              Dishwasher or busser or bar back- some restaurants will put you to work same day because (at least where I am) they are absolutely desperate for dishwashers and bussers
              Instacart/Uber/Lyft/Task Rabbit – Ok its not great but its money and the chance to meet people
              Those are mostly things to get you working more and more money NOW

              Career wise-Can you keep applying with exercise science stuff? Does your former college have a career or alumni center? Is an internship an opportunity. Could you be a personal trainer for a while?

              You absolutely can get out of the hole even if it doesn’t feel like that. I truly believe you can!! And no a suicide hotline wont pay your bills but they really can help and I encourage you to call if you need.

          2. Koala dreams*

            I agree with voluntary work. It can be a good way to add some experience, and also meet people in different circumstances who can give you a better connection to the community.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      I’d see if you can find any decent staffing agencies in your area. There are usually garbage agencies, but if you do some research, you can usually find some reputable ones. You will be able to tell the good from the bad because the good firms will sit down with you and ask lots of questions and the bad will just meet you to see what you look like. The best firm I was with had a 4 hours interview process! You will have access to lots of opportunities if you go this route, they may not be exactly what you are looking for, but they will be good jobs.
      And if that isn’t an option, look for volunteer opportunities in your field. It will give you something to do, keep you motivated, you’ll make connections, and you will keep learning.
      Good luck!

    6. CheeryO*

      I know this probably isn’t particularly helpful, but please know that you are not alone. I know so many people who are struggling with student loans and poorly paying jobs.

      The part that stuck out to me is that you’re applying to hundreds of jobs per week. That leads me to believe that you’re not trying to tailor your cover letters to the position, which is a super common mistake. You would be much better served by spending your time on fewer quality applications. If you read the archives here, Alison has some very good practical advice on how to do that.

      Do you have any large employers in your area that hire a lot of people for entry-level work? Banks, insurance companies, that kind of thing? I know it’s probably not what you want to do, but it would be a better paycheck while you get a handle on your loans and figure out a path into a more desirable career path.

      I know this is easier said than done, but please, please take care of yourself and your mental health. Everything is so much harder when you’re severely depressed.

    7. Someone Else*

      I don’t know where you are located, or what type of jobs you have already applied to so far, but Corporate Wellness is growing, and your degree should be a good fit for that. Have you tried this branch of your field? I see that a lot of people with your degree go on to be exercise physiologists and even personal trainers. It seems like there are a lot of options, but sometimes when a person is depressed, it makes seeing these options more difficult. I would see if your current company has an EAP or something similar and get help for the depression. It is really difficult to job search while fighting against your own mental health.

      1. Filosofickle*

        Building on this, targeting other entry level jobs in health/wellness/fitness would be a start, like front desk at a gym. It may not be more money than the grocery store, but it positions you in a better direction. (Assuming the degree field still holds interest.) There are stepping stones if you know what you’re heading for and can focus the search. More time spent pursuing fewer, focused opportunities is usually more productive when you are employed.

        But, yeah, depression makes it hard to see possibilities. I’m not sure tactical suggestions will help here.

      2. John S*

        My employer doesn’t even give us above 31 hours so we don’t qualify for benefits, let alone EAP. I do have medicaid, but it’s very limited as far as mental health goes.

        I’m located in California. I’ve tried to get into corporate wellness and nutrition, that was one of my goals upon graduation actually. I don’t know what to say, I just can’t get the jobs. People with masters in exercise physiology and fresh grads are taking all the jobs. Why would any company want to hire a 27 year old with no experience in the field that graduated 5 years ago over those candidates?

        That’s why I’m so distraught. I’ll work for free at this point just to get my foot in the door but even those internships are for current students only

        1. irene adler*

          Can you give exercise classes? Teach nutrition concepts? Might visit local city recreation dept and see if they are hiring for instructors. Or, design a class or series of classes and pitch the idea to them. What about the YMCA? Or other youth groups ( Boys & Girls club, for example)?
          Private trainer?
          Might have to take a multi-step approach to getting into the industry of interest.

          1. Mia 52*

            This is such a good idea! Even if its volunteer you get something on the resume that you taught an exercise class

          2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

            I worked and fitness, and typically you have to have a certification to get those sorts of jobs. It’s not too hard or expensive to get a Personal Trainer cert, or a Fitness Instructor certification. Some places will pick up the course fees of you taking these classes: the YMCA, in my experience, is really good about covering course fees, but they also pay well below market rate, so you do end up paying for it in the long run.

            Since you’re a younger male, I’m going to suggest you get certified to do some senior fitness classes, too. I’ve taught water fitness, and they are easily 80% female. The senior ladies LOVE young male instructors, and that’s a great way to have job security since class attendance tends to be an key aspect of your performance evaluation.

            Good luck!

    8. Koala dreams*

      I’m sorry to hear that. Maybe it’s time to stop using all your energy for the loans and the job search and spend your money and energy on getting treatment for depression and taking care of your mental health. Job searching can be quite demanding so it’s good to take a break now and then.

    9. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hi John, this isn’t something that this forum is able to handle here, but there are people who are trained to help you. Please call the National Suicide Hotline tonight: 1-800-273-8255. They will help.

    10. Will's Mom*

      Yes you have a chance to land a real job. I understand your depression over this. My son committed suicide over this very thing. PLEASE reach out for help with the depression. I am here to tell you that there are people out in the world who you have unknowingly helped and influenced simply by being yourself. Also, please know that you matter to a whole slew of people, including me, and I don’t even know you.
      You are going through a trying time right now trying to get a good job that you can use your knowledge and skills. I get that. The thing you need to remember is that you WILL get that “real job” eventually.
      Back in the day, I was stuck at a dead end job that was so bad, I cried every Sunday night knowing I had to go to work at that hell hole on Monday. I worked there for 18 months. The only good thing about that job is that I had a chance to get to know people who worked at a different company where everyone wanted to work. Seriously, at the time, they were the premier company to work for in my city. Well, it turns out that through my contacts, I was told about an entry level job at that particular company. I applied for and got that job along with some hella good benefits. The kicker is that the job I got required 4 years experience doing a certain thing. Turns out that the 18 months at Hell, Incorporated added to my prior experience was enough to get the job at premier company. About a year after I was hired for that job, I applied for and got a much better job internally with a 150% bump in pay. My point being, you may now be getting experience you need to be able to qualify and the the job you want.
      Hang in there. I know it it so cliche, but suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

  164. Filosofickle*

    On my mind this week is the new California law AB 5. It is designed to classify more workers as employees instead of gig/freelance. There are, of course, significant unintended consequences rolling down on workers such as truck drivers, barbers, and journalists. (And rabbis!) Even where independent contractors should be clear based on exemptions, apparently it’s making companies nervous about hiring independent contractors in CA.

    I should be fine, with a few adjustments, because my work fall under the “professional services” exemption as well as the B2B exemption. My work is business/marketing/brand strategy. I’m a sole proprietor, but not currently incorporated (I work under my SSN) and that needs to be fixed to get that B2B piece in place.

    It does change who I can work for. Previously my model included a hybrid of consulting for organizations (B2B) and also being sub-contracted by other marketing/brand firms to lead their client-facing projects. The latter has to be scrubbed bc the B2B exemption only applies if you work for the organization, not their clients. (I’m trying to get away from that anyway, but it was my fallback work and that limits my income for awhile.) Some of my add-on communication/content services also feel questionable.

    Orders of business: 1) Formally incorporate. 2) Tailor my services to ensure I’m staying in the lines. 3) Talk to a lawyer to ensure I have the language and boundaries I need to stay compliant and talk my clients through it if they are concerned.

    Anyone else struggling with this? Between this, the mice in my kitchen, and a chest cold, 2020 is not off to a fun start.

    1. foolofgrace*

      I can’t help with your main problem (I know of someone in CA going thru the same thing) but I heard recently from somewhere that you can get some brown paper lunch bags and put the mouse traps, baited, inside the bag. The mouse goes in, and you just have to throw away the bag without seeing anything too icky.

      1. Filosofickle*

        That’s a clever idea! I managed to dispose of one, still in the trap and using gloves and tongs. A bag would be even easier.

  165. incognito fashion help*

    I have a few interviews next week that I will be going to during extended lunches/after work. I do not have a business formal or even business casual office – and I am trying to figure out what I can wear to not be obvious (I work in a major city and take public transport to work so I cannot leave items in a car to switch into). I do not like / own / wear slacks – so showing up in business pants would be odd. I mostly wear tights and casual black dresses to work (wrap and shirtwaists). Currently work in fine art, interviewing with fashion/fine art. Is it possible to go to an interview in just a black dress? Or perhaps a dress with a blazer on top (and I hide my blazer in my giant bag)? Any insight would help

    1. Mary Whitney*

      I’d go black dress, blazer on top. If possible, I think a more formal dress would be good. You can also swap out tights for pantyhose, throw on some heels, and put on nicer jewelry if you want.

    2. CheeryO*

      The blazer-in-a-bag might be your best option if you have a dress that you think would be formal enough. You could get creative with popping a cardigan or even a regular sweater over it to make it read more casual for the workday.

      1. incognito fashion help*

        Thank you Mary & CherryO! I did not think to disguise a more formal dress under a cardigan. I wear a lot of sweaters/cardigans too so I think that would look 100% normal for me. Luckily I wear heeled boots every day in the winter – so nicer footwear will not stand out. Will pack nicer jewelry to throw on too.

    3. RainyDayDog*

      Go simple but good quality and elegant with clothes and then dress it up with excellent, stylish earrings.

      We just interviewed someone this week who was moving out of fashion into not-for-profit, and she did a wonderful job dressing for both at once. She had plain, good trousers (grey wool), a plain, good top (navy blue silk effect) and then these fabulous earrings, probably from an art gallery or similar.

      The woman we interviewed from a fine art background was in a plain black polo neck and trousers (and did a great interview), which was perfectly fine, but not actually impressive for a senior public facing role.

  166. Remember Neopets?*

    Just a late in the afternoon rant.
    I just got out of a slightly stressful, hour and a half long meeting so I went to check on one of the people I manage who was having an issue with something before the meeting and her response was “I couldn’t find you so I just did this.”

    The thing that they did was fine, but for some reason the phrase “I couldn’t find you” is really bothering me.
    Maybe I took a late lunch. Maybe I had to poop. Maybe I was just sitting in someone else’s office complaining about things.

    Is there a way to remind people that you manage that you won’t be at your desk for the entire day? Or has this week just sucked and I need to let it go?

    1. whocanpickone*

      I wouldn’t read into it too much. Good luck the rest of the day, and take a break this weekend if you can!

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Agreed. “I couldn’t find you” isn’t necessarily an accusation, it’s a statement of fact. It’s saying that they tried to find their manager, waited a while, then had to make a decision. I’d take it more of a defensive statement, like “I wanted to ask for your opinion, but I couldn’t wait any longer so I did what I thought was best. Don’t be mad if you would have done something different.”

    2. Buttons*

      What in the world? Why would she not know you won’t be at your desk all the time? Of course you have meetings, go to lunch, and the rest room. If it was a decision she shouldn’t have made on her own, then tell her what she should do if she needs you in the future.
      Frankly, I am shocked when anyone is at their desk! I send people a SKYPE message before going to anyone’s office to see if they are available.

      1. Natalie*

        It doesn’t sound like the coworker was upset or accusatory, just explaining that they had taken whatever action and why.

    3. Oh So Anon*

      I’d say just let it go, especially if the person who said this is often garbage-y at communicating without coming across like possibly an asshat.

    4. Chronic Overthinker*

      I look for people all day long. I have a procedure I follow though. I call. If there’s no answer, I look for the person. If I can’t find them, I either send them an email or an instant message (like Slack or another system). If the response is time sensitive, I will include the words “I need an answer by (time). If I do not hear from you by then I will proceed with (blank).” It shows I tried to find the person by multiple means before following proceeding with the task. If this isn’t the first time that this has happened, perhaps you need to create a procedure of the best way to contact you if they can’t find you. Otherwise you may just need to let it go. Happy Friday?

    5. CM*

      Nothing sounds weird about that statement to me, but it might be worth thinking about why it bugs you.

      Reading your second paragraph makes me think that maybe your response to hearing that your staff member couldn’t find you is something like, “I’m allowed to have five minutes to myself!!” In which case it might be a sign that you’re feeling overworked, or you’re getting pinged with questions too often. But it could also be something else — only you would be able to judge.

      If you can figure out why it bugs you, there might be things you can do to improve your stress level at work that aren’t about explaining to the staff member why what they said was unreasonable but are about changing the workload, or the amount of questions you’re getting, or whatever else is the source of the bug.

  167. Tableau Wizard*

    I kinda love the universe sometimes.

    On a day when I sent a text to my sister that “I cannot quit my job. I cannot quit my job. I cannot quit my job.” in an effort to not rage quit at my demanding boss, I received two different messages on linkedin from previous colleagues asking if I might be interested in new roles. I even was able to meet one of them for coffee midday today, which is frankly unheard of.
    Signs from the universe are definitely saying, “you can’t quit yet, but maybe soon!”

  168. AstridInfinitum*

    At the beginning of the month, a job opened up that I’m extremely interested in. It was posted on a Wednesday and gone by Saturday. I was so pumped that I was able to get my cover letter written and everything submitted in that time. Huzzah! I assumed that since it came down so quickly, they had an internal candidate and it was kind of a formality to post it in the first place. However, yesterday on Facebook, a former grandboss who is now the President/CEO of this organization posted a link to the same job opening! I still want that job. I am not sure if I need to reapply since I got all my materials in the first time.

    I sent her a FB message, but since she’s probably got better things to do than check her FB messages, I’m not holding my breath for an answer. How long should I wait before trying to reach out again to someone else there? Should I just bite the bullet and reapply just in case?

    1. WellRed*

      Don’t reapply. It will look like you don’t realize it’s the same job. Also, in general, lots of people probably never see FB messages.

  169. Mary Whitney*

    Anyone have experience with the interview process for federal jobs? My SO got an interview with a federal law enforcement agency (YAY!). How long does the process take? Are there any major differences between federal interviews vs county/state or private/nonprofit interviews?

    1. Faith the Twilight Slayer*

      I don’t know about interviews, but be prepared for a background check like no other. My BF was a neighbor of a guy who applied for a federal job (I don’t know what) and there were people knocking on doors of the applicant’s neighbors to simply ask general questions about what they know about the applicant.

      1. irene adler*

        Yep!
        I was the neighbor and the interviewer was trying to get me to ‘spill the gossip’ on my neighbor who had applied for a federal job. He wanted all the dirt. Well, this particular neighbor was a stand-up guy. Told him so. No dirt to be found.
        He asked if the cops ever responded to his home. I laughed. They were more likely to be at my place than neighbor’s place.
        He then asked about what sort of people neighbor socialized with. Even asked about nationalities.
        He also asked me about neighbor’s finances. Like I’m gonna know about that.
        He got the job but I was bothered by the interviewer’s questions.

        1. Policy wonk*

          This was probably a screen for a security clearance. These are standard questions in that process. I’m sure they also asked about alcohol and drug use. The finances part is essentially asking whether your neighbor is living above his means – would he be vulnerable to bribes?

      2. Mary Whitney*

        Thanks all! We’re prepared for the background check (he’s already gone through a county LE background check where they interviewed his *mother* LOL).

    2. foolofgrace*

      I posted about this in a different thread, but when I interviewed for a State position, the interviewing panel told me they were going to ask me a set of questions and that they couldn’t elaborate on them because every applicant had to get the exact same questions for fairness. I was given the opportunity at the end to ask questions, though.

  170. whocanpickone*

    I am working for a new company and it turns out that a lot of people in corporate are fairly religious and conservative (they all go to the same church and I’ve seen warning signs of anti-lgbt attitudes). No one has said anything rude or direct to me, but this makes me uncomfortable.

    The company I left fired my old boss and is trying to recruit me back, but it has some of its own downsides (lots of travel, challenging projects) and my title is higher at the new company (pay is approximately the same). What sort of questions should I be asking while I try to make this decision? Has anyone worked for a company that is culturally not a great match?

    1. WellRed*

      Can you point to what specifically makes you uncomfortable? I’m not condoning them at all, but are there otherwise problems? Are the warning signs clear? Are you LGBT and therefore this could start to feel even worse than it already does? Is the job otherwise good? Are there other issues?
      I’m not sure I am putting any of this too elegantly. I’m pretty liberal and open minded myself and would be uncomfortable just by the all going to the same church thing myself.

    2. foolofgrace*

      I’ve never found going backwards to work out well. There were reasons you left that job, they will probably still be there, at least some of them.

  171. MommyShark*

    I work in a field that takes years of experience and education/certification to typically earn a position. When I started with my employer I was the sole employee doing this work. We have since added three more.
    When the third employee was in the process of being hired I was asked if I would consider becoming the Director of the unit and supervise the rest of the team. I agreed, but the promotion was stopped by upper management due to budget issues.
    When the third employee was hired, I was told that while not their supervisor on paper, I was in function. Additionally,
    I was responsible for training them as they had zero experience. I needed to ensure they learned how to do the job properly and delegate some of my work when they were ready.
    This individual had zero relevant experience or training, yet is “independent” and “prefers to figure ot out”. I discovered they were taking tasks on for themselves and meeting with clients without me and making significant mistakes. When this was brought up to my boss I was told to let them sink or swim. Despite objections that this was a bad idea this is the current state.
    During the discussion I enquired if the promotion was still coming and was asked to be patient.
    During all this the environment in our department has become toxic. Gossip is ridiculous and feels like we’re in high school. This particular employee takes an active role with no one stepping in.
    Despite having great respect and getting along well with my boss and other managers, I’m seriously considering leaving. I know this would be devastating as I am in charge of large, important projects that no one is prepared to step in on. Is it time to go?

    1. Lauren*

      Leave. They told you it won’t happen. Believe them. Get out. You could attempt to ask for a long transition period since the role is a no-go, and then watch them fall over themselves to keep you. The money and title always have a way of showing up then.

    2. Buttons*

      Only you can answer that. Why did the environment turn so toxic? Is it because people are being asked to manage without authority (like with you with your coworker)? If you can diagnose why this happened, you might be able to see if it is a short term thing, or is this the culture for the forseeable future? That would guide my decision.

      1. MommyShark*

        Honestly, I think it’s all tied back to the non appearing promotion. There’s an admin who typically knows whats going on but can’t keep it to themselves. Couple that with my getting moved from a cubicle to an office (sounds silly but they’re coveted spaces) and the immaturity of the new staff member, it’s exploded. Plus while I knew I was supposed to supervise the unit, no official announcement was made and I was told to not say anything. Sigh… it’s not getting better any time soon.

        1. Buttons*

          They set you up on a horrible position. They are telling you to manage without authority or even telling people that you are managing them. I would push back on your boss, they are creating this toxic culture and setting you up for failure. This isn’t fair.

        2. WellRed*

          You were…told not to say anything? I mean, what’s the point of having a secret supervisor? Oh right, if it’s a secret, they don’t have to actually promote or pay you.

    3. WellRed*

      They are not treating you well and they’ve made you responsible for others but with zero authority.

  172. Oh So Anon*

    Sorry to the world, but I am so, so, so sick and tired of letting people with poor soft skills off the hook for being awful at working collaboratively just because “they mean well. ” Intent isn’t magic, and I’m fed up of feeling like I’m the bad guy for wanting these kinds of people to either be held accountable or moved to a situation where their nature doesn’t cause so many problems.

    I’m also sick and tired of basically everyone constantly griping about the situation behind this person’s back because God forbid anyone (other than me) burn up capital on addressing the situation head on.

    I’m stuck spending my Friday afternoon quietly, angrily cleaning up a team deliverable that a certain steamroller pressed forward on without wanting to collaborate with others. It’s not in good shape, but this person talked up their contribution so much that they sucked all the air out of the room for anyone else to contribute. But hey, fixing this is what makes me a team player, right? Not so much; it just makes me a bitchy perfectionist.

    Happy Friday!

  173. Seeker of truth and light and grilled cheese*

    I need suggestions on how to phrase something in job interviews: my reason for job hunting. I have been here for a little over a year now.

    My current position did not develop as promised. I was going to build the entire department of project managers for all of our contracted teapot manufacturers, and instead I just project manage by myself with only one of them on only some parts of the manufacturing process. This is not due to any failing on my part, but because the grandiose ideas that one VP had didn’t translate into reality and buy-in from other VPs and their manufacturers. I had asked about that in interviews and was assured it was all worked out. Nope!

    So. What do I tell people?

    When I have mentioned that the job turned out not to be “build the dept!”, some interviewers immediately think I expect that kind of work from whatever role I am interviewing for, and I can see them mentally file me as “nope!”, even though I make it clear that I would love a non-supervisor non-dept-head role. (Please! Less paperwork! Fewer boring meetings! More teapot tech! Sign me up!)

    When I just say it generically (“didn’t develop as promised”), people ALWAYS ask for more detail.

    I don’t want it to look like I am bad-mouthing the company, either. They were optimistic, and it might have happened, it just didn’t coalesce.

    I could just go with a professional version of “the commute is consuming my soul” which is also true, but that seems a bit too small a reason to make a change in job, as my commute will be long everywhere here, just in different directions.

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    1. Buttons*

      You can say what you were hired to do did not get the buy in from the VP, and that overall the position is not what you were hoping it to be or where your interest lies. I think if they ask “what were you hoping for ?” You can give them back the job description you are applying for :)

      1. Seeker of truth and light and grilled cheese*

        Oh lovely way to approach it, thank you! I will practice some answers in this manner.

    2. fposte*

      It’s possible that they’re trying to get at a seeming discrepancy. If you don’t want the job that your current one was supposed to be, what’s the reason you’re leaving the job that it turned out to be? IOW, if you’re happy with a less weighty role, why aren’t you happy with the unexpectedly less weighty role you have? Right now it could sound like the failure to expand the department is a bit of a red herring; I think people may be struggling to figure out your narrative here.

      1. Seeker of truth and light and grilled cheese*

        I had to really obfuscate the situation, so might not be explaining it the best way, the situations aren’t just “do lots!” and “do less!” – but I see your point, i can work on explaining the difference and my logic and choice better. Thanks!

  174. Jessen*

    Slightly odd question:

    I have a religious ring (worn on the left ring finger) that’s got a design a lot of people would consider edgy or gothic. It’s really not a problem at my current job, but I’m wondering about if/when I eventually go back on the job market. I’d feel about removing it for interviews about how I imagine most people would feel about removing their wedding ring, but I also understand that it’s going to read as just an edgy fashion choice to most people – assuming they notice the design at all. It is a fairly subtle design; it’s a small skull set in a plain silver band and I’m not sure how much people even register the design at all.

    If/when the situation comes up, would this be something worth saying anything about, or having a short prepared script, or how would you handle it? People who’ve done interviews, what would you be thinking?

    1. Buttons*

      I wouldn’t bring it up out of the blue. That would be weird, most wouldn’t say anything, other than commenting on it’s “unique design” and you simply answer “thank you.” I wouldn’t say it is religious, as then people might have bias towards a religion that has a skill as a symbol.

    2. Threeve*

      Oh my goodness, your first sentence had me thinking: “Iron cross? Oof, yeah, don’t wear that to a job interview.”
      But I think your subtle skull is fine. :)

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think you want to say anything unless somebody else does, and I think most people won’t notice or say anything (skulls have been a trendy design for a while, so I’d be surprised if it elicits much of a response). If they do, I’d just be breezy and short rather than explanatory: “Cool ring!” “Thanks–I like it too.” If they probe deeper, that may be a sign of weirdness in its own right.

      1. Jessen*

        If I were going to explain I’d give the short not really religious explanation – I like it because it’s a reminder that life isn’t forever and we’re not guaranteed anything. But it’s sounding like even that might be a bit much?

        2. fposte*

          Yup, way too much for yer average interview conversation; you really don’t want to set the tone with a memento mori.

          1. Jessen*

            Gotcha. I have no scale on what’s too morbid for normal people.

            It is, in fact, a memento mori ring.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I would just stick with “yeah I like this kind of design.”

          Honestly lots of people even wear sports team crap because they “like the crest” or whatever. Seriously!

          So just go with “oh it’s just my style.”

          I suppose in extremist minds they’ll judge you any way, so don’t bother with thinking about them. Just think about the average person who would notice it and ask about it.

    4. CheeryO*

      I have not interviewed, but there’s almost no chance that I’d notice it unless you had bright nail polish on or were doing a lot of talking with your hands. I definitely wouldn’t proactively bring it up. If you happened to get an, “Interesting ring!” type comment, you could always give a cheery, “Oh, thanks! I always wear it.” I doubt that anyone would push it beyond that.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      FWIW, I used to work with a guy who was probably in his mid-to-late 50s when he got hired. His typical look was close cropped/bald white hair, wire frame glasses, a sweater vest, and slacks. But he wore several rings that are not really the norm for men who otherwise look like him–much more hippie style than the rest of him. When I saw his rings, I thought, “There are some rings.” That’s about it. I wouldn’t have a script ready. I doubt people would ask, and if they did, I’d form my answer based on the experience with them so far. Some people might say nice ring, others might know the religious significance, and others might think it was edgy–different answer for each, right?

    6. Chronic Overthinker*

      Most people probably won’t say anything. I’m a witch and tend toward the goth aesthetic with a little pop of color here and there. Sometimes I’m a bit bohemian or have a hippie-ish vibe. It’s still business casual and appropriate for an office environment/interview. The only jewelry I don’t wear is my outright pentacle or my large goddess pendants. I have a subtle goddess pendant that I’ve worn before and I’ve never really garnered any attention from it. If someone remarks on it, just say “thank you, it’s one of my favorite pieces” or something generic.

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        oops! My first line disappeared!

        *I chuckled at this because I’m currently wearing a scarf with sugar skulls and wearing post earrings of little black skulls.*

    7. Koala dreams*

      Can you afford to not get job offers from people who dislike your religion? In that case, it might be a good test to wear it and see which employers you wouldn’t want to work for. If there is a lot of discrimination against your religion going on, you might want to take it off for the interview to not wake the sleeping monsters.

      2. Jessen*

        It’s complicated. It’s more like “lesser known devotion of a very common branch of Christianity”, so I don’t have the same worries that someone of a particularly minority religion would. I really doubt there’s anyone out there who would both actually know what was going on and be biased against it. I only mention the religious aspect here to explain why I don’t like just taking it off, though. I’d rather the topic of religion not come up in an interview anyway.

        1. Koala dreams*

          Thanks for explaining the context! I don’t thing people will ask too much about the significance, unless they wear the same type of jewellery themselves. Unless it’s a job in health care or other place where you aren’t supposed to be wearing jewellery, it’s fine to wear a ring to the interview. Especially as you’d like to wear it on the job later.

    8. 1234*

      Skulls are a fairly common motif so I wouldn’t bring it up and I highly doubt anyone will notice.

  175. Narvo Flieboppen*

    Do you ever get the feeling that no matter what you do, you’re going to be wrong? I’ve been dealing with complaints here all week, and offering explanations (not excuses) for why these things happened.

    TL;DR: To quote Mugatu, from Zoolander “I feel like I’m taking crazy pills!” and I really hate my job but haven’t secured a new one yet.

    Some examples:

    Boss was looking for me with some questions and wanted a quick meeting, which he popped onto my calendar. He sent the meeting notice at 2:35 PM for a 3:00 PM meeting to last an hour. At the time, I was in the office next door troubleshooting some issues with another coworker. Specifically, I am the department expert on Excel and our reporting software, and I was assisting her with both. I resolved everything except an issue that needs an admin password for the network, for which I had her open an IT ticket. It was almost 3:30 by the time I got back to my desk. Boss was put out that I was ‘late’ to the meeting which I never accepted in the first place. I simply explained why I hadn’t seen the meeting notice and we moved on, but he complained at the end of the meeting about me being late and not accepting. It’s like, dude, I was doing the job you assigned me to do when you specified I was the expert and first contact for these problems. Sorry it inconvenienced your last minute meeting request which you knew I didn’t accept.

    CFO (grand-boss) complained to me that some of the audit documentation we need was not in place. I reminded him it was pending on SVP who is basically known as ‘Paperwork Black Hole’. I also asked that he follow up with the SVP since she has been stonewalling me (not responding to email, voicemails, declining meeting requests, literally dodging into & locking an office door behind her when she saw me trying to flag her down in the hallway) as I try to resolve this. CFO told me this is my problem to solve, not his, and I’ll be written up if SVP doesn’t get her paperwork turned in by the final deadline. Clearly, this is motivating me to work harder…on my job search.

    Coworker from another department complained that her order request was not approved. I have sent her 3 reminders specifying her PO was not completed and so we cannot approve the order. This led to her complaining to her manager that I was refusing to approve the order for ‘no good reason’. Her manager complained to Boss, who called me into his office to tell me to put the order through right away. I pointed out there was no approved PO. Everyone in the whole chain expressed amazement that this was the issue and why didn’t I point it out when coworker placed her order? I forwarded the whole collection of reminder emails, time & date stamped, to everyone involved along with a message stating I had sent reminders, but maybe they went astray. Boss has now told me this was passive aggressive and there’s no place for it in a professional workplace. Also, instructed me to approve the order without the PO – verbally. I asked for him to send it in writing, in case the PO never materialized, so my name wouldn’t be on an approved order without backup. He declined to send the written authorization. The order is still pending an approved PO, now 12 calendar days out from the order date.

    One of the phone operators has been forwarding customers to my direct line. I work with vendors and internal departments, not customers – to the point that I don’t even have a valid login for the customer database since it isn’t needed for my work. This operator has been told by me, her supervisor, and her grandboss to stop doing this. So, rather than forwarding calls, she is now giving these people my direct dial line and having them call me back because she is, per the last customer I spoke to, “unable to transfer calls” to my extension. For some reason, all of these customers are really displeased. Several have complained about me because I ‘refuse’ to help. When it’s really that I have no ability to do so. Boss told me to just let numbers I don’t recognize go to voicemail. I pointed out that I get many legitimate calls from vendors, whose numbers I don’t know off the top of my head, but whose calls do need to be answered. We’ve got several thousand active vendors, many of them don’t have proper caller ID and sure don’t know that many phone numbers off the top of my head. Boss says figure it out for myself, then. I’m like, tell the operator to do her job right, because that’s the problem!

    I discovered a fairly large number of accounts which have not been reconciled for 2019, but need to be very quickly because of the impending audit. I brought it up to Boss. He asked why I wasn’t doing them. Well, it’s not on my task list. In fact, they’re assigned to other staff in the department, so why would I be taking care of it? His resolution is to assign them to me. I pointed out, per audit standards, since I put all of the activity into the account, it probably should be reconciled by someone else. He decided it would be fine. So I now have several dozen account reconciliations, which are 13 months behind as of today, to add to my plate. All to be done in the next week. BUT, I’m not allowed overtime and next week is the busiest time of the month where I already have 4.5 days of time scheduled. That leaves me like 2 hours today and 4 business hours in which to complete all these reconciliations. So, instead I’m posting here and not caring if they get done at all because this place is full of bees and I can’t bring myself to care about this problem.

    To note: If I had been A) asked to help or B) authorized for overtime, I could dredge up some more caring. But to dump all this work on me after my coworkers have ignored their tasks for an entire year and not even offer me overtime to fix it? Yeah, you an f*** right on off out of here with that idea.

    I don’t suppose anyone has a high paying job which involves eating cake and snuggling puppies, per chance? It’s not in my work history, but I feel I could excel at such a role.

    1. PJM*

      You need to start a job search pronto. I was in an extremely similar position and it took me way too many YEARS to realize that there is no reasoning with unreasonable people and unreasonable expectations. It is soul crushing to put up with this too long.

    2. Buttons*

      Holy crap! Any one or two of those would be frustrating and demotivating, but all of that? Ugggg. You deserve cake and puppy snuggles. Your boss and grandboss are passing the buck and I feel like they are prepared to throw you under the bus at any possible sign of trouble. Keep CYA and keep putting the CYA proof in front of them. It isn’t passive-aggressive as long as your tone is “Hi, I think this probably got missed, but here you go! Can I get that PO now so I can submit your order?”
      The SRVP, that is ridiculous and if you are not at her level or above your boss and CFO should step in. At this point I would request a meeting with her and her boss (is that the CFO too???)
      Good luck!

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        Oh, yeah, this place has gone down hill badly the last couple of years. I stuck it out too long and should have gone when the going was good. Like 2.5 years ago. Rather than trying to hold on in the hopes it would improve. Le sigh.

        The SVP’s boss is the CEO. I’ve already been told that under no circumstances should I contact the CEO for anything. Ever. Especially if it is a problem with one of her direct reports. It’s basically a fireable offense to bring a problem to the CEO’s attention.

        There is an ‘open door’ policy. But if you walk through that open door, you’re going out the door permanently in 3 – 4 weeks. I’ve seen it happen to close to a dozen coworkers in the last year. Yes, that is a one a month average. I’d keep my head down and ignore it, but I’m the one on the hook for getting these tasks done and clearly my chain of command does not have my back.

    3. WellRed*

      Do you ever just get up, walk over to the problem coworker (especially the operator) and say, “You have been asked to stop sending me this calls, but you keep doing it. I can’t help customers, the calls need to go to Fergus, why do you keep doing this? OK, but it needs to stop, immediately.”

      To the PO person, the same: “I’m still waiting on that PO. I’ve sent you three reminders. Do you think I can get that today?”

      Both followed by CYA emails, of course. At any rate, I am irate on your behalf at all of this.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        I’m like a quarter mile away from the phone operator’s desk, so I typically don’t set foot in their office space. I have called her, in addition to emails, but she seems dead set on ignoring everything that I am not the correct person.

        I have all of the emails I’ve sent to everyone, basically ever. I have a 7 year email archive which includes not just my inbox but also sent items. CYA all over the place. But that only goes so far when management is not only unwilling to back you up, but also willing to push you under the bus and hold you down while it backs up for another go of it.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What an utter shitshow and they made you the scapegoat/whipping child.

      You don’t need out of accounting/finance, you just need out of that holy hell, that’s not normal [which you know of course!]

      I hope every one of those higher ups gets the trickling shits and gets stains on every pair of their underwear. [Along with one day losing their high power positions and rotting in hell but first the trickling shits.]

      1. Auntie Social*

        I want Narvo to give the idiot receptionist the CEO’s cell number and tell her that she has a new phone (this on Narvo’s last day there)

  176. whistle*

    I would recommend not drawing attention to it by preemptively saying something, as it sounds likely that it would not even be noticed.

    However, if you are concerned, what would think about rotating it so that the skull is under your finger instead of on top of it?

          1. fposte*

            I wondered if somebody had some particularly freaky Ehlers-Danlos kind of thing or was badly describing a self-stim involving pressure on their head, but scrolled up in desperate hunger to see what actually was going on.

  177. Tom H*

    It’s about to be hiring season for my team. Any tips on screening interviewees for, essentially, their ability to show up on time? The showing up on time bit is important in itself, but there are also far more important daily tasks that involve similar steps, and anyone who has trouble being somewhere by a set time won’t perform well. We’re looking for people for whom it’s second nature to keep track of the time, can automatically reshuffle steps when necessary, and have a sense for when the timeline is going irretrievably off track and they need to let someone know. Of course the latter two require getting some experience first, but some people never figure it out and we really need to not hire them.

    I can usually get a feel for this in conversation with someone about the job and haven’t made any terrible hires, probably because I started in that job myself. But I may have to delegate some of the interviews, and the last time this happened it was a disaster (led by the recruiting department, and the guy from my team let them ride roughshod over him) where we had 100% turnover within 6 months. I’m trying to come up with specific questions that I can have someone else ask if necessary. Any suggestions? Obviously most people at interviews won’t tell you that they’re chronically late and their time management sucks. One thing I’m considering is giving a hypothetical time-crunch scenario, leaving out most of the details, and then asking them to ask questions about what else they’d need to know in order to make the go/no-go decision. This should give some insight as to how they approach things and might be enough to know if they have the right sort of brain. Otoh, it doesn’t weed out anybody who knows what they need to do but for whatever reason can’t do it in practice and is still late all the time. Help!

    1. Buttons*

      Here are some sample questions, assessment guidelines, and red flags.

      Could you tell me about a time your punctuality or attendance impacted your work?”
      How do you organize your work when you have to juggle multiple projects/clients at the same time?
      If you’re reporting to more than one manager, how do you prioritize your duties?
      Describe a typical day at work. What’s your morning routine?
      How much time do you spend per week on X task?
      You return to work after a two-week vacation and find fifty new emails in your inbox. How do you choose which emails to open and answer first?
      Have you ever missed a deadline? If so, what happened? If not, how do you make sure you’re not falling behind?
      What productivity tools (e.g. time-management or project-management software) have you found useful?
      Describe a time you successfully delegated tasks to your team.
      How would you reply if your manager suddenly asked you to complete a challenging task on a tight deadline? (e.g. make fifty cold calls to potential customers in one day)
      Have you ever felt overwhelmed at work? What did you do?

      Here are signs of candidates with good prioritization skills:

      They make to-do lists. People who are organized and break large projects into smaller, doable steps are more likely to complete their work on time.
      They separate important from urgent. Most job duties are important, but only some of them are time-sensitive. Look for people who understand the difference and follow deadlines.
      They estimate the time, effort and resources needed for each task. To properly prioritize tasks, employees need to prepare themselves. They should evaluate a project’s requirements before digging into work.
      They don’t hesitate to re-evaluate tasks. Employees should be able to identify inefficiencies in their workload and suggest ways to improve processes. And managers should frequently re-assess regular duties to determine what works and what doesn’t.
      Red flags
      They micromanage. Employees who want to control every part of a project find it hard to delegate tasks. They’re more likely to wind up with more tasks than they can handle.
      They lack communication skills. Managers who can’t clearly communicate requirements cause team-wide misunderstandings regarding priorities and deadlines.
      They lose the bigger picture. Employees who view projects as individual tasks aren’t likely to consider how they add value to the company. This makes them less likely to prioritize projects based on their importance.
      They procrastinate. Poor concentration and lack of a “can do” attitude are red flags. Also, people who are easily distracted by trivial issues struggle with focusing on their most important job responsibilities.

      1. Tom H*

        Thanks! The productivity tools question is an especially good suggestion here – there’s this job-specific productivity tool that some people are really resistant to, and they’re always people who have trouble meeting the metrics (whereas it’s is very helpful for middle-of-the-road employees to keep them on track, and it lets the high performers just leave the application in the background and do as they see fit without wasting time on it). And I think people WOULD answer that one fairly honestly, while they might be unhelpfully diplomatic about others. I’m definitely going to try out a question about this.

  178. LGC*

    Coffee questions!

    How can I encourage my employees to use reusable mugs more? We have a communal coffee maker, and while we provide disposable cups, I think it’s better (personally, and for the environment) to use reusable mugs. We’re not paying out of pocket for the cups, so it’s not a money issue.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Stop providing disposable cups? Or if you feel like you need them for visitors, let people know that the disposable cups will be for visitors only starting immediately.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We make them available for everyone. We also have a dishwasher. So nobody is washing them by hand.

      We’re also just getting rid of disposable cups when we move and have more shelf space to provide reusable travel mugs. Part of the thing is not providing the disposable option in the first place. People always go for whats in front of them first. So if you put them right next to each other as well, that may help.

      1. Chaordic One*

        Yeah, but a dishwasher won’t remove those gross coffee and tea stains. You really need to wash them by hand with a wet dish cloth or at least a scrub brush and some physical pressure to get rid of them. That’s just the way it is.

    4. littlelizard*

      Providing reusable mugs if you don’t (and sending an email letting people know they are available) would be a good step!

    5. Cendol*

      My company made an announcement that they would no longer be supplying disposable cups (via email and poster in the breakroom), then provided a reusable mug to all who indicated (also via email, iirc) that they would like one. They also explained in the email that the change was part of an ongoing green initiative.

    6. Leopard*

      Make sure there’s good quality soap and sponges available to wash out mugs? Maybe even a dish drainer?

      1. fposte*

        And make that a regular maintenance thing, not a one and done–even if soap and sponges don’t outright walk away they get used up surprisingly quickly.

    7. LGC*

      …I was not expecting y’all to reply that fast!

      They’d have to supply their own, and we don’t have a dishwasher. I’ve considered not supplying disposable cups but that feels a little hostile (in light of that). On the other hand I’m pretty sensitive to things.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Oh if you’re not supplying them, then I wouldn’t even bother bringing it up…that seems way overstepping to me.

        I agree do not remove their disposable option if you don’t have the ability to give them the alternative. That is hostile and rude, even when I’m waging war personally with single use items! But I can do that because I’m providing the alternatives.

        I’m also just angry because I see the disposable ones used for things…things that aren’t drinking. Like when someone was doing a big shredding job and there was a bunch of paperclips to rally up, someone grabbed one of the disposable cups…instead of literally anything that wasn’t a disposable cup to gather the wayward things up and toss them in the supply closet with you know, bins for that stuff.

      2. Mouch*

        Maybe I’m gross, but I rinse my Yeti out with water and that’s it. I bring it home and wash it every now and then. The only sink at work I have access to is the bathroom sink.

        My company doesn’t provide disposable cups or mugs. People bring their own to-go mugs. It’s all good. Your company isn’t obliged to offer communal coffee at all, so… Mean ‘ol me says to take away the disposable cups, and if people don’t want to bring their own beverage container, then they can get their coffee somewhere else.

    8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Provide mugs — and good ones.

      At OldJob, everyone got a company mug on day 1. They’re plastic, don’t seem particularly fancy, but they’re fantastic. They’re on the large side (16oz), and well insulated with a wide base that tapers upward, so they’re also extremely stable and difficult to tip. Everyone I saw kept their company mug on hand, and I still use mine to this day, long after OldJob laid me off.

      NewJob gave out much fancier ceramic mugs, but they’re smaller (10oz) and have a very narrow base that makes them tippy. Eff that!

      1. LGC*

        I’ve actually been thinking about that! I considered buying my team mugs (~20 people total). Thing is, I’m really into the sappy team stuff and my team isn’t that much.

        That’s one thing to look into.

    9. Koala dreams*

      Provide re-usable mugs and put them next to the coffee maker. Cheap mugs can be found second hand, if it’s a cost question. Put the disposal cups away in a drawer. That way people will be encouraged to go for the re-usable mugs first.

      1. WellRed*

        I’m going to politely disagree with offering second hand mugs. Mugs are a dime a dozen to buy new. Encourage them to bring their own and maybe spring for some new ones as back up.

  179. Not a doctor so stop asking*

    I have a team member who’s completely clueless: he says and does some seriously inappropriate and offensive things, but I deal with it because it’s never a personal attack; he’s just clueless. Stuff like saying women are better at being nurturing and men are bad at that so women should be the ones doing the childraising; referring to a female team member as “Desert Girl” instead of her actual name; mimicking a stereotypical “Asian” accent right to the face of a coworker of Asian background thinking it’s funny…. do I really need to go on?

    Anyway, he and I were having lunch the other day, and the subject of the coronavirus came up. As we were discussing this, he suddenly started asking patronizing questions about AIDS as though I’m an expert (I’ve never said anything to indicate I have any more knowledge than any other person on the subject.). Um. It became clear he thought that because I’m a gay man, that I’m naturally knowledgeable about HIV. And that as a straight man, it’s just as natural that he knows nothing about it. (This is not the first time I’ve experienced this attitude from a straight person, but that’s a whole other subject.) Um… I just steered the conversation to another subject, but ended up spending the rest of the day a bit annoyed at this. This isn’t the first time he’s made some seriously screwy assumptions about me based on me being gay (such as the time I returned from a trip overseas with my husband, and when I would mention a great bar we went to, he assumed it was a gay bar and made a huge issue out of it – because naturally, gay people only hang out at gay bars, right?).

    None of this really gets to the level of harassment, and I continue to just let it slide as it’s not a personal attack (in my case; maybe not so much with other team members). But it is starting to make it difficult to continue working with this guy, yet the thought of me being the one who has to look for a new job because someone else is being a jerk really ticks me off. Then again, maybe working at a more enlightened place would be a good change for me. Because where I’m at now, it’s like “yeah that’s terrible but he doesn’t mean harm so just let it go”. It’s like this workplace wants credit for being LGBT friendly and allowing people to “bring your whole self to work”; yet at the same time, thinks we should “just deal” with offensive coworkers. Anyone have a similar experience? How did you deal with it?

    1. Nicki Name*

      Is “but he doesn’t mean harm so just let it go” something you’re telling yourself, or something HR is telling you after you complained? Because this is definitely worth complaining to HR about. Or just telling him to knock it off because it’s not just not funny, it’s offensive.

    2. fposte*

      Just to be clear–have you officially complained about that guy? Because you’re talking about leaving and saying your workplace thinks you should just deal, but it’s not clear that you’ve told anybody about the problem yet. Feel free to bring in the other problems (the Asian mockery especially has nuclear potential) when you do.

      I can’t guarantee they’ll do anything, but it’s a lot likelier to happen if you take action first.

    3. Buttons*

      Mocking an Asian accent would get some fired at my company.
      We fired somene a few weeks ago because they made the “joke” that the Head of a Dept got her job by sleeping her way to the top. That stuff is toxic, harmful, and should be addressed. It doesn’t matter if he is clueless, he is an adult with a job and should be stopped.

    4. WellRed*

      Mocking an accent is really offensive. So is the rest, of course, but easier for him to play off as no big deal. You need to tell him to knock it off, but honestly, I think it’s HR worthy at this point.

    5. Leopard*

      Yeah, I second that this is worth going to HR about. In the meantime, though, you can just start documenting it the way you would if you were going to go to HR (right away, so you don’t forget details): as exact phrasing as you can remember, situational/conversational context, witnesses, *date & time* (’cause otherwise, you are gonna forget that). That way you will at least feel more powerful, even if you decide it’s too dangerous to go to HR (and you could later submit an EEOC complaint after moving on to another job, if it ends up rising to that level).

      You might also brainstorm ways of directly responding to such things and practice with a friend! When a coworker wouldn’t stop calling me “hon,” I called a friend and workshopped/practiced jokingly saying things like, “Whoa, that’s not my name – just call me Leo.” And that actually worked really well – he apologized and never did it again.

      1. Leopard*

        Forgot to add: another reason to work on responding as directly as possible in the moment is that usually HR will also ask you how you responded and if you made it clear that the behavior was unwelcome. In some cases, it’s obvious that a given behavior/comment is hostile and inappropriate, but for other comments more in a grey area, HR needs to make sure the person knew it was unwelcome and continued to do it anyway in order to establish that the person is creating a hostile environment. At least, that is my understanding from having been through this process at a previous job.

    6. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Chiming on the accent mocking: That’s not clueless. That’s racist. I’ve known a bunch of people who act like they didn’t know it was wrong. They were all bullies and this isn’t something you should ‘just deal’ with in the workplace.

      If HR says otherwise, then the company deserves a hostile workplace environment lawsuit because race is a protected class. If they know and did nothing to stop it, that’s a pretty open & shut case.

    7. 1234*

      When you say team member are you his colleague or his boss? You are more generous than I am because that is HIGHLY offensive and inappropriate. If you’re his boss I would move towards firing him. I would be very resentful if I were a female or an asian in that office and it was always let slide because he “means well”. I guarantee other people who have been the subject of his “cluelessness” are job hunting b/c they can’t stand being around him. If you’re just his colleague I would cut your losses and go because it doesn’t really matter who “wins” it matters that you work somewhere were people don’t make the offensive comments and assumptions he did.

    8. Oh No She Di'int*

      So I basically agree with the spirit of all the commenters so far. Obviously this guy’s behavior is way out of bounds.

      However, based on the fact that you recently had lunch with him (and only him, it sounds like) and that you told him about your overseas vacation in some detail, I’m going to read between the lines here and say that as awful as this guy’s behavior is, you actually feel some degree of friendship towards him. I hope this is not offensive; I think many of us have had that racist uncle or that slightly off-color, unenlightened friend who is nevertheless a part of our lives. I may be way off base here, but the answer to that would certainly influence what you would or would not be likely to do.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What he’s saying are sexist and racist…that’s a huge issue and he needs to be “retrained” and fired if necessary.

      Just because it’s not POINTED at someone who is Asian doesn’t mean that you can mock an accent. It still is discrimination on display, it’s still hostile work environment stuff if things boil down to it and it’s a pattern.

      Please remember you don’t have to be in the demographic they are targeting with their hatred and vitriol to complain or cause an investigation. Even if you’re all a bunch of white men, you can bring up racist issues if they’re going on around you.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        The mocking accent was directed TO the employee of Asian descent.

        This guy is not clueless or not meaning harm – that’s an excuse and you must be bending over backward to brush this off as somehow not a real problem. It’s not a personal attack on you because you are not female or Asian (by implication) but yet he actually made comments based on derogatory assumptions to you about your orientation. You don’t have to be personally offended but please recognize his behavior for what it is and where it’s coming from. From what you describe, he *is* racist and sexist (and potentially homophobic) and his comments ARE harmful. Doesn’t it seem weird that someone this “clueless” somehow only chooses the worst sexist and racist things to say?

        You may not feel obligated to report his behavior and comments but I sure as hell hope someone is. It absolutely does get to the level of harassment, particularly to the employees he is inflicting it on.

    10. LGC*

      You could be me, I feel like. I have this exact same type of guy (he thinks he’s funny, but often goes way over the line) on my team.

      So a lot of people have already said this is worthy of HR, and I agree. But it sounds like you’re at a place where you feel like you’re concerns aren’t valid (when they definitely are!). If you’re getting that from management, and you have an actual HR, run it to them. If you’re getting that from HR, you have much bigger issues than this guy. If you don’t have HR, explain how serious all of this can be (the racism notably, but…like all of it).

      In my case, I have the “luxury” of being my jerk guy’s supervisor. (I don’t have the authority to provide formal discipline, but I do have some power.) So I’ll call him out pretty often in the moment, and I have flagged more offensive behavior to management to deal with. (My guy has improved! Or at least I’m not hearing worse stuff from him now.) You don’t have to clap back if you don’t feel safe doing so or you don’t feel like you can, but sometimes it helps to name it in the moment.

      And other people might feel the same way about this guy – if he’s walking around mocking accents and stereotyping gays OPENLY AT WORK, I can’t imagine everyone else is okay with this.

    11. Mouch*

      In your first paragraph, those examples, as written, are absolutely personal attacks. It is not some dude being clueless.

    12. Original Poster*

      Thanks everyone for all the comments! I did speak to my manager one-on-one yesterday. He said I’m not the only person who’s had complaints. He is taking this new info to our director and HR rep.

      I did also tell him I’m starting to keep documentation of these incidents. He agreed that is a good idea.

      So time will tell…. but action is being taken.

  180. Rhymetime*

    I could use advice about the best way to give a senior leader feedback. Until this week, he was my boss the entire time I’ve had my job, about two years. He’s still here, we’ve just added a position that I’ll be reporting to instead, and we will still be collaborating informally on projects. As context, overall he is excellent to work with and well-respected. He’s been here for decades and it’s the only place he’s ever worked.

    The problem is that he sometimes publicly shares with reports details about performance issues he has with their peers in meetings with others. For instance, I’ve heard him describe that someone works too fast in an introductory meeting with a new manager who barely knows that person. He has mentioned how a couple other employees approach him in a way that is confrontational. And this modeling has permeated our organization as okay, and others have done the same. The situation makes me not trust what he and others are saying about me as well.

    He has emphasized a culture of feedback and recently reiterated that, telling me he appreciates how I am good at initiating both positive and critical feedback. We have a system of 360 anonymous reviews coming up, and I’m trying to decide if I should tell him directly about this feedback, or instead add it anonymously to my comments on his performance review. I did tell him it was difficult for me when I first started but not sure he heard it, and to be honest I think it would be good for his supervisor, our relatively new CEO, to know and address with him. Our CEO is consciously trying to create a more positive culture here.

    Should I be direct and point it out, or add it anonymously to his performance review comments?

  181. Berkeleyfarm*

    After nine-plus years with a company, I got hit in a large surprise layoff last week.

    The silver lining is that I appear to be getting a lot of motion with employers for my next job, something I definitely feared during previous periods of frustration as I am over fifty, female, and in IT operations. I have two “in person” interviews next week (I survived the phone screen). I got new interview clothes and emergency hair and makeup consultations.

    I am trying to review interview tips but if you have some good guides, let me know.

    I also want advice on the following:

    – I am applying for systems adminstrator positions. My actual sysadmin skills are a bit patchy because I did a lot of helpdesk/desktop support (small company, and I had some coworkers who were happy to leave things for me to do) so I did not have time to develop more advanced skills appropriate to my title/paygrade. I’m actually a little peeved at the timing because this year was supposed to be the year I was able to catch up. I am actively pursuing training, but need some scripts along the lines of “I know I have some gaps, I am catching up with training, I’m a good self-learner, and it’s very similar to a lot of what I have done before”.

    – It came up on an application – I got fired from one of my jobs due to a very bad grand-manager who targeted employees (Alison would have a field day with him). There was a lot of turnover in that group (both my immediate supervisors noped out of there). On the application I said that the new manager wanted to bring his own people in, which is part of the truth, but I want some ways to say it that are professionally appropriate.

    1. Fibchopkin*

      for the second question, I always find it best when candidates are honest but professional. Something like “I enjoyed my job at the Fishdog Food Factory, but when it came under new management, my new supervisor declined to retain most existing employees and preferred to hire new staff,” if that ‘s true. If not, be honest but not gossipy about what happened and what you learned from it. Like, “Though I had a good track record with my former supervisor, when Noveria’s management changed, I had trouble adjusting to the new management. As a result, I made a few mistakes and was let go, but it taught me an important lesson in flexibility and adaptability. Since then, I actively worked to improve by doing “x” and “y”, which resulted in a successful project launch/increased efficiency in my last job/improved customer service (whatever demonstrable thing you can point to from your last job).” This will help move the conversation past the firing and into your skills and most recent accomplishments and responsibilities.
      Also, don’t sweat this too much. Seriously, if it was me interviewing you for an open position on my team, I would be very unlikely to probe further if you used some variation of the above, as long as it was only one job and not a pattern, and your work record and references were otherwise good. A LOT of really great candidates have been fired once before, so it’s not necessarily a black mark to just see one instance as long as you address it honestly and professionally.

      1. Berkeleyfarm*

        I was actually targeted in retaliation for a previous supervisor’s departure. Dude bullied everyone.

        I was actually cut loose just before the new supervisor (his hand picked candidate) started. Eventually they eliminated the position because they couldn’t keep staff (people with options decided to exercise them).

        It was in local government so the ones that survived have civil service protection now (we didn’t then).

        (It feels good to let that out.)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      how far back was that job though?

      They’re not going to pay much attention to it anyways, you were fired more than 9 years ago!!! So just be honest, say you were let go because the new supervisor came in and decided to not retain your services.

      Even if you were fired for something that was your fault…it was nine years ago [more probably, assuming it’s not your job previous to your 9 year job!]

      1. Berkeleyfarm*

        Close to 14 but given my stable work history it’s still on my resume/part of standard application forms.

    3. irene adler*

      One suggestion I found -here- a while back might help with the training issue.

      You could say something like: ‘That’s definitely a gap I’ve identified in my skillset, chiefly because I’ve been required to use a different technology in my last position. So I’m aware of it as a training need – how do you usually support training for incoming staff?’

  182. Just Don't Call Me #GirlBoss*

    I just started a new job 2 weeks ago, in large part due to the great advice on this website. Yay! But I am having issues with one employee who I don’t think likes my style. I would love advice on how to better work with him.
    The team I inherited previously worked in silos, even though they all do similar things and work on the same projects. I am used to being able to have a weekly team meeting that involves some basic work updates and some brainstorming, as we are a content team and often need to come up with creative concepts. I also hold weekly or biweekly 1:1s.
    One of my employees told me at our first 1:1 that he doesn’t like meetings and did not like “brainstorming” and prefers to do his own concepting without other people around. Regarding our weekly meetings, he said he would prefer to just email me if he needed help. I told him that this was time for us to talk over his agenda but also if I had any concerns, and we should leave them on our calendars but consider them on a case by case basis. As I expected he did opt out of our one this week, which….I guess is fine. (Well maybe not fine, but not sure how to handle that on week 2 of my job.) But what surprised/alarmed me is that he walked out of our team meeting after a few minutes and just disappeared. I kept going because we only had a half hour, but afterwards I asked what had happened and someone said that he texted that he felt sick. 
    The silos issue I’ve seen has resulted in sub-par content. Things are written in inconsistent voices, and it causes a lot of wasted time reworking that impacts the rest of the department. There may be other ways to get past this, but I really do believe a weekly meeting is necessary and I don’t want to debate it with him. Do you have any advice for getting him to at least attend these meetings, even if he doesn’t like it? I can see that he is incredibly shy, but I have worked with quieter people and never had this come up before.

    1. WellRed*

      How does the rest of the team feel about these meetings? Did they go from zero to 60 in the two weeks since you’ve been there? Is there someone you can ask to see if this one coworker is just like this? Does he understand why you feel these meetings are necessary? Have you literally said “The silos issue I’ve seen has resulted in sub-par content. Things are written in inconsistent voices, and it causes a lot of wasted time reworking that impacts the rest of the department.”

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I have been there as the employee who gets a new manager who wants a lot more oversight into our processes than previous management. It was not really conveyed to us why the new manager wanted us to send him a separate written weekly report from the one we already supplied to our lead, who fed that same info to the manager, so several of us just … didn’t do it. Not very mature of us, I admit, but it was the reaction we had to perceived micromanagement. In our case it was just new-manager-itis (he later became a very good manager), but in your case it sounds important to improving work quality.

        So there are a couple of things.
        1) Since you have very good reasons to step up oversight, the team needs to know that there are these existing issues that need to be addressed and here is the strategy *for now.*

        2) While the regular meetings (both team and 1:1) sound key to getting everyone back on track, maybe the frequency, length of meeting, or agenda could be tweaked so that it’s not such a big adjustment and the effectiveness of the meetings would be better felt by the team. It sounds like the meetings are just half an hour, which IME is very reasonable, but maybe brainstorming on demand isn’t the way this team likes to operate, or maybe an hour every 2 or 3 weeks is better.

        3) If the above doesn’t get your lone wolf employee to participate, then you might have one of those employees who decides they don’t need management of any kind. The whole “I’ll email you if I have a problem” is a red herring – I don’t know what the likelihood is that this would actually happen, but I would guess next to zero. Potentially being super shy is a red herring. You’re not forcing him to socialize, you’re requiring him to participate in work activities. Either he follows instructions or there are consequences.

    2. fposte*

      I wouldn’t do the 1:1s on a case by case basis; I’d change them to mandatory for the time being. You can tell him you understand that this isn’t what he’s used to but you’d like him to do things your way for the time being.

      I really don’t like the passive aggression of a bailing out of the meeting (and who was he texting about leaving if he didn’t tell his boss?); without knowing him, I can’t say if there’s a carrot that would help, but this behavior sounds a little “You can’t tell me what to do” to me, so I’d be clearer that you can and you are.

    3. Drtheliz*

      Re: the brainstorming thing, that is A Thing for many people – you tend to get better results if you ask people to come to the meeting with one or two ideas than if you just sit them down and tell them to create, and the latter kind of meeting are a special hell for many introverted folks.

      The “silo” issue is simpler, I think. Just tell everyone that you’re going to have a weekly work-assignment meeting in which you’ll lay out a basic plan for everyone, and it’s mandatory (at least for a few months, then you’ll reassess).

      Example: this week’s newsletter has a piece on Teapot Painting – Team A, you’ll do the interview with a painter, Team B will be on “teapot colours through the ages” and Team C will be talking about the company’s vision in teapot designs going forward. Quite a pop-science feel and passive voice for everyone except Team A, I think, unless anyone objects? No? Lovely, moving on to the Employee Spotlight pieces…

      1. Koala dreams*

        I like the brain-storming where everybody writes down a couple of ideas, and then take turns presenting them. That way it’s not about who speaks fastest or loudest, but rather everybody get a chance to share an idea. It also tends to give more diverse ideas when people get a little time to think beforehand, even if it’s just a few minutes. I’d still find every week too much, so…

        As for dealing with the employee, you need to be a lot clearer about your expectations. If you want a weekly meeting, say that, and don’t try to soften it by calling it going “case by case”. Also, make clear that the team meetings are obligatory, and that they need to tell you beforehand if they need to take time off (using whatever procedure you want to use for taking time off).

        Remember that as the boss, it’s your job to keep the discussion on topic, and cutting your employees off if they go too far on a tangent. So if this employee wants to discuss how much he hates meetings, cut it off and tell them that the meetings are not up for discussion. Then you can go on with the meeting.

  183. WellRed*

    Mini rant: Why does everyone suddenly think they can demand to review newspaper article drafts, or steer the direction of the said article or tell me what I “should” write or insist on being off the record?
    This isn’t Watergate for Pete’s sake. Trust me to do my job.

  184. Anon Angry Reviewee*

    Have you ever deeply and wholeheartedly disagreed with your performance review? I received a rather negative review this year, and felt that not only was I evaluated unfairly, many of the comments and statements made were false or inaccurate.

    At merely the tip of the iceberg is the fact that despite multiple discussions about my needing reasonable accommodation regarding time for completing work in between calls, time for personal breaks, etc., and being assured that this would be accommodated, I was still marked down for not meeting the same high standard metric goals applied to the rest of the team. Also not taken into account was the fact that calls are distributed by skill level, so while some of us receive more of the complex issues and others receive more of the fast and simple routine calls, we are all expected to meet the same goals. And finally, I am the only person on my team who is also doing extra work, taking calls for another group and assisting with their tickets, which also skews my numbers.

    Then there were the false statements. That I have been observed playing on my phone instead of focusing on my work. In reality, nearly every time I have been accused of “playing” with my phone, I was actually using it as a tool to better assist my customers, which is something all of us do. That I volunteered for the activities committee but failed to complete any assignments. Wrong again – I served on the committee the previous year, only attended 2 or 3 meetings and did accept and complete two assignments, but could not do more than that because I was denied more time away from my desk/phone to do so. In 2019 the existing committee was disbanded and replaced with a new committee, which was pre-selected and volunteers were not solicited. Oh yes, and I need to be more of a team player. Well I’m not young and I’m not naïve, so I know that this most likely means sit down and shut up. Because I definitely am a team player, just not in the way that managers like. I support and advocate for my team, especially when we are being treated unfairly or taken advantage of. I took more than one employee rights issue to HR this year, and I’m sure that’s where this comment came from. Other team members who spoke up got similar wording in their reviews.

    We get to submit follow up comments when we sign off on our reviews, and I wrote what amounted to over a full page in Word – what you all got is the condensed version! And I know from talking to my teammates that I am not the only one who got a lousy review this year. But I’m mad!

    1. Deb Morgan*

      You are absolutely justified in your anger! I would be furious. However, do you think it might make more sense to channel your frustration into a job search rather than trying to change a performance review done by people who are lying about your work? Your response won’t change the review or the underlying problems at your workplace. This might be a sign that it’s time to move on.

      1. Gatomon*

        +1 I’ve been on the receiving end of negative performance reviews from alternate dimensions, and it’s a giant red flag that things aren’t going to work out here. It’s time to start seriously job hunting. Trying to power through a similar situation was devastating to my mental health, and I am so, SO glad that I ran from that place. The evil power that be were eventually ousted, but I don’t believe I would’ve been able to survive long enough at that job to see that day.

  185. Drtheliz*

    Just dropping in to say that I finally have a job! I think it was a case of “playing my averages” – it was my fifth interview, I know I was second place for one of them and I’ve got a pretty good sense I was in the top 3 for another (the others were a cover to hire an internal candidate and me pulling out because I’d got an offer. They told me I was “on their shortlist”, but “on the shortlist” isn’t “preferred candidate” so no dice for them.)

    To all my former comrades of the hunt – have an empathy cookie, and all the luck I can give.

  186. Faith the Twilight Slayer*

    If I get one more extremely detailed (multiple paragraphs, with bullet points, bold letters, italics and underlines) and extremely public (multiple non-involved people copied) email deconstructing the smallest mistake (apparently asking for a phone number is now a national emergency and MUST BE ADDRESSED), I am going to lose my shit. There is not enough medication in the world for me to deal with this condescending, patronizing BS, especially when this person isn’t even my supervisor.

    1. Fibchopkin*

      Must admit, the first part of your post had me cringing, lol. I am NOTORIOUS for bulleted, bolded, underlined, and multicolored, uber-organized emails to my committee members outlining attachments, action items, and due dates. Happily, though undoubtedly occasionally annoying, my emails are never shame-y, never cc’d to uninvolved parties, and NEVER include me pointing out mistakes (which is not something I would do to someone who doesn’t report to me- what the actual eff is that?!!?).
      Sorry you’re working with Angela from accounting :(

      1. Faith the Twilight Slayer*

        Surprisingly enough… we’re in the accounting department. Nope, I’m convinced this person is just an unhappy individual, and I’m on the receiving end. My boss sees nothing wrong though, and spent 15 minutes explaining the many ways that this was not obnoxious, so obviously I’m just reading into things. Glad to know in addition to being a screw-up I’m also just too sensitive!!!

      2. WellRed*

        Stop with all the colors and underlining. It’s distracting and looks less than serious all at the same time.

    2. Miss Salty Grits*

      You have my empathy-I recently received my first bulleted, bolded, underlined Shame Email. I felt like I was getting a Howler.

  187. W2, paystub, taxes, yikes*

    It’s a bit late but just heard from a friend & wondered what advice the US commentariat might have.

    Friend says that her husband’s boss (FHB) has stopped paying him (& is surprised that her husband is declining to go to work). FHB has “promised” his W2 will go out next week. Friend has no reason to think this will happen as payroll isn’t happening. Sounds as if paychecks were hand-written, & don’t show withholding for anything. This is (was) a full time job as an employee, not a contractor. Things have been increasingly odd at this small business for a couple months.

    Questions:
    What should they be doing/asking?
    How do you get a W2 equivalent if the business doesn’t provide it?
    How do you file taxes without that info?
    Without it, how does the IRS (& State) view their tax status? Eg, if FHB hasn’t been withholding, after all? If the paystubs listed that & FHB hadn’t actually paid the taxes etc then that’s on him, right, & not the employee?
    What else?

    Many thanks.

    1. irene adler*

      From the IRS website:
      If you’re unable to get your Form W-2 from your employer, contact the Internal Revenue Service at 800-TAX-1040. The IRS will contact your employer or payer and request the missing form.

      Also from the IRS website:
      If, after contacting the IRS, you still do not have your Form W-2, you have two choices:

      1. File your return by the April due date and use Form 4852, Substitute for Form W-2, Wage and Tax Statement. Try to estimate your wages and withholding as best you can.

      2. Ask for more time to file by using Form 4868, Application for Automatic Extension of Time to File U.S Individual Income Tax Return. You can even e-file the request. If it turns out the information on the Form W-2 is different than you reported, you will need to file an amended tax return using Form 1040X, Amended U.S. Individual Income Tax Return, to make the change.

      2. foolofgrace*

        I think even if you file by the deadline, if you think you will owe money, you need to pay it with your estimated return. I’m pretty sure you do even when you have a W-2 and can’t meet the filing deadline for whatever reason.

      3. Natalie*

        One important note regarding option 2 – it only extends your time to file, not your time to pay. If you are confident enough was withheld from your checks to cover any tax liability, this is not an issue and you will be able to claim any refund for up to three years after the original deadline.

        However, if you believe you might owe taxes, it would be prudent to make an estimated tax payment for 2019 prior to the normal tax deadline, or you will owe interest and penalties on any unpaid. If you overpay you are still entitled to a refund, just like overwithholding.

    2. irene adler*

      RE: not withholding taxes from FHB’s paycheck
      That might require some legal expertise. As FHB is an employee, he should be aware of withholding of taxes from each paycheck. So ignorance may not be a defense here.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        This was my thought. It’s ultimately up to the employee to dictate how much–if any–taxes are to be withheld from their paycheck. Typically this is communicated on a W4 form. It is indeed possible on that form to stipulate that no taxes be withheld. The logic of this would lead me to believe that it is therefore ultimately the employee’s responsibility to make sure whatever taxes are owed get paid, whether that is through payroll deduction or out of their own pocket.

        But I am NOT a tax lawyer, so take this for what it’s worth.

    3. Faith the Twilight Slayer*

      They can try the IRS website, and they have a customer service line that they do, in fact, actually help people on, even though most people think an IRS helpline is a contradiction in terms. As far as paying taxes, the employee will be responsible for their portion of taxes, because the employee did receive XXX dollars as income, but they are not liable for the employer portion, like SS/Med. Maybe they can consult a tax attorney?

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        While it’s true that the employee would not be responsible for the employer’s share of SS/Med, I believe they would still be responsible for their own share of those costs. Otherwise, there’d be a massive loophole in the tax law that would allow everyone to get out of entitlements payments altogether.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        In cases where the employer withheld employment taxes but failed to deposit them, or failed to issue W-2s, the employee should contact the employer to request the W-2. If the employee is unable to secure a W-2 from the employer, the employee should complete and attach Form 4852, Substitute for W-2, to their tax return using the best information available to calculate the wages and the withholding. This information can often be secured from pay stubs. IRS website.

        I’d talk to a tax attorney about if they fail to deposit the funds withheld if you’re actually liable to pay the IRS their missing money…since that’s legally an employers responsibility. It’s not like you can just choose to get paid as a contractor and remit your tax liabilities to them directly. They would usually go after the employer for the back deposits plus all the penalties and fees.

        Also some states require a pay stub and documentation of withholding, so I’d look into the state labor department for that.

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          Just a point of clarification here. You’re right that the IRS would come after the employer for any funds withheld and not deposited. That would for sure be the responsibility of the employer. However, I read the original post as saying that FHB was not withholding taxes from paychecks, i.e., that the employee was receiving 100% of his salary with nothing withheld. If that’s the case, then it would most likely be the employee’s responsibility to pay taxes on that, not the employer. In short, whoever ended up with the money is the one who has to pay taxes on it.

          Obviously, however, get thee to a tax professional!

    4. blackcat*

      I would call the IRS helpline.
      I would also bank on owing a lot, because I doubt this employer was withholding at all.
      Basically, I see two options:
      1) Call IRS/follow IRS instructions. Main consequence of this: likely being out of the job, owing a lot. Main thing needed: record of the paychecks (if they were deposited rather than cashed, these records should be easy). In the unlikely event they were withholding, calculate what was withheld based on the difference in checks and the hourly rate x hours worked.
      2) Treat it as pay under the table, cross fingers and hope for the best. Main consequence of this: possibly nothing. IRS is understaffed and unlikely to go after particular individuals at this time. HOWEVER THIS IS ILLEGAL. And if the IRS catches them at some point, they will owe back taxes and fines.

      Obviously 1 is the right choice legally. But plenty of people would do 2.

    5. WellRed*

      Tax lawyer. Who knows how long the company has been doing this and he will be screwed. This is not something to mess with. Also. The IRs is pretty underfunded etc.

  188. Decima Dewey*

    Hello all. Last September, my cluster had Sexual Harassment Prevention Training from actual people. At the time of the training, the online version hadn’t been finished. This month, we learned that even though we’d had the live training, we all had to do the online training. When I went to the website through the link provided by Grandboss, the site opened up in Internet Explorer, where I couldn’t seen all the screen and the tab to make it full screen was grayed out. Had to email the training people who gave me a link to copy and paste in Chrome. The training was identical to the live training. There was a five question True/False test at the end of the training. In case I couldn’t figure it out, when the answer was True, that word came up first. When the answer was False, that word came up first!

    The last cluster meeting was supposed to feature training on the new timecard system. Which is buggy as all get out, with employees being underpaid, leave times miscalculated, OT being paid late, etc. We have three pay periods (we are paid every two weeks) to correct errors we find. In the event of alleged overpayment, the system will go back to the beginning to time to get the money back from us (or at least back to last March, when payroll started using it). In the meeting we were told we’d get two W2 forms–one for time until the new system started, one for after. As it happened, we got one W2 form. Sometime in the future, instead of payroll entering our time, we will be doing it. More training is promised.

  189. TechWorker*

    My partner and I met at work and have worked at the same company/site for the time we’ve been together (~4 years). Since we’ve been going out we’ve never been on the same team but we have both reported to the same manager for some of it (we were both managers with our own teams, reporting to a second line manager).

    He has had a tough time with mental health recently and one of the conclusions he came to was that management isn’t actually particularly well rewarded in our company (he’s right, it’s not) and for the equivalent amount of pay/responsibility he could move back into a technical role that has less stress attached.

    He mooted this option with his manager (no longer my manager) and was told that if he reverted to a technical position he should expect a demotion, rather than being able to move sideways into a technical role at the same level. This is, tbh, total bullshit, as managers where we work *are* expected to be technical and take the final technical decision, and knowing others who have the technical position at that level both at our site and elsewhere, he is easily overqualified.

    I think he’s going to quit over this, he talked to our director today and it seems like they bizarrely have zero movement on this front. I totally support him quitting and think (regardless of our relationship, I am able to judge his work product that I see from being on an adjacent team with at least some professionalism) that the company is being unreasonable and unfair. What I’m less sure of is how to act about it round my manager/managers manager if it comes up. Maybe we all just pretend forever and a day that I have no opinion on it and it basically didn’t happen(?) but the director (managers manager) does have a habit of mentioning people who quit (amongst other management) in a very offhand way. (‘Oh the problem with Joe was that he never got out of his fathers influence!’ ‘Bill left because he really just wanted to spend more time with his kids and didn’t want to work a full time job’.). I’ve no idea what reason might be attributed to my partners leaving but I would guess it’s never the full story, and I don’t know how I would feel listening to it!

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think you are asking a question but want to comment. The very fact that you are so invested in all this should show you why it’s sooooooo important to step waaaaay back and disengage from the whole thing, including, to a point, your partner. Sorry but that’s the breaks when dating a person from the same company. You’re way too invested in this.

      1. TechWorker*

        I guess the question buried in the rant was how I should react if my manager or a managers manager brings it up. (They might well do).

        I don’t disagree that I’m invested, but tbh I think I can be personally invested in something and not show it at work – that’s pretty common! I’m not sure I could *not* be invested in something that also affects my own financial security and future – don’t worry I have no intention of bringing it up at work, but I genuinely think I could be asked about it because management know that we live together etc and may want to make sure I’m still ‘on board’. In which case maybe failure to engage is the best option.

        (I also wonder if this would be the reaction if I’d had said ‘husband’ – it’s a bit beyond dating when you own a house together… it would be totally unreasonable of me, IMO, to refuse to talk about it at home).

    2. HRLady*

      I think not engaging is your best bet. If it wasn’t someone you know, I don’t think it would be terrible to say something like “I don’t think it’s right for us to assume what happened. We’ll never know the whole story”. So they can stop spinning things. Since in this case you know the person, it’s probably best for you to keep your mouth shut. Can you try to think about it like being at family party, where Aunt Margaret is talking about some nonsense and you just have to go to your happy place. I think it was in another post that Allison mentioned she images shes in Jane Austen novel dealing with all the silly, frustrating characters. If that gets to unbearable though, I’m wondering if you should determine if you like to work at this company. If you know they have bad employment practices and bad/annoying practices of bad mouthing employees, do you still want to work for this company? It may be worth it to look for other employment yourself. If you don’t want it to look like you left because of your partner maybe you can tough it out for a little while and then leave, plus then they won’t think you’re making a stand just for him. Then you both can have jobs you enjoy and if those jobs are at separate companies that may separate your two work/home lives which could alleviate the possibilities of frustrations like this coming up again.

  190. FeelingLikeJerk*

    I hate myself for talking about this on here but I really feel like venting about this will make me feel a bit better.

    Last year I had a health scare that resulted in needing major surgery. I was able to give work about a 2 month heads up and I spent a full month out of work (surgery required a week stay at the hospital afterwards). While I was away I did not get any type of get well card or flowers from my work place. I didn’t really notice, my husband is the one who first commented on it and then I realized, well, yeah they didn’t bother. In the 15 years I’ve been here, they have always passed a card around and sent flowers to people who were in the hospital/sick/etc. I just assumed that maybe policies have changed and they don’t do it anymore.

    I came back to work and felt like an ass for thinking about it but I did not bring it up to anyone. A coworker gave me a card a few days after I returned and commented that she was surprised there was no card passed around. She felt bad enough to go and spend her own money on a card for me. I am very touched and thankful for her gesture.

    But then another coworker had minor outpatient eye surgery last week. I get a card passed to me to sign for said coworker. There’s also a note with a picture of a $70 flower arrangement saying it will be delivered to their house.

    Now that’s what made me feel really crappy. I mean, it’s not the flowers and the card, it’s just no one thought of doing it for me during a time that a little support from my coworkers would have been nice. I’m clearly never going to say anything to my boss or anyone else because I do feel like an ass for being disappointed. I know I should be happy that I’m healthy now (which believe me I am) but I’m only human.

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      I’m so sorry you had to endure that! And on top of your health issues as well. That really does sound like it would be awful. You’re not an ass for feeling this way; and there’s nothing wrong with you for wanting your coworkers to take note of your health situation, particularly given that that is the norm in that workplace. You’ve given no indication that you are not well-liked by your colleagues, so I can’t see that there was any malicious intent. Still, it’s natural to want to be recognized.

      Quick question: does there tend to be one person who spearheads these things, and it is possible that it somehow slipped that one person’s mind or that they thought someone else had it covered this time? I ask because a couple of years ago, there was one assistant whose responsibility it was to remember everyone’s birthdays, put together parties, etc. You can see where this is going. Naturally, we all completely forgot his birthday. We made up for it by making an extra big deal about it a couple of weeks later.

      I realize this is not your situation, but I relate this story in hopes that maybe there is a similar innocent explanation. In any case, I’m glad to hear you’re healthy again!

      1. WellRed*

        I’m sure it was totally something like this! Not a reflection on you, FAjerk. I get it though. I can see this happening at my work. I don’t NEED the well wishes but holy shit. Give them to everyone or no one. Full. Stop.

  191. Misty*

    I just wanted to thank those who replied to me last week about how to decide on a major.

    I decided to stay with majoring in social work and added a minor in psych. I realized that I was only 2 classes away from completing a psych minor. I also met with all my professors (3) to ask their opinions. It was actually really helpful and productive. One professor offered to write my reference when I apply for grad school in the future which I was surprised by (since I didn’t bring it up). I also got to meet the chair of the department which was really helpful too.

    In good news, my three social work classes have gotten more interesting. I realized my problem with the classes being depressing was actually coming from the other students! I am 25 and most of the students in the classes seem a little younger. When depressing topics come up, I usually look at it from a research interest point of view if that makes sense. However in several classes, students end up sharing details that I find inappropriate for the educational setting. Such as details from their own or their families experience with suicide, drugs, their parents leaving, ect. In a way it feels as though some of them are using the class/group projects as therapy. Maybe it’s unfair of me to feel that way. I have my own therapist so if I had something to talk about like that I usually just talk to her. I’ve started tuning out a couple of students who I know do this. Also when we are talking in small groups, I try to redirect the students on my projects back to the actual topic we’re supposed to be discussing or writing about. That’s been helping a lot this past week.

  192. Production Worker*

    So I started a new job in October, and it’s my first salary job. (I’m 40.) I’ve gone from five years at an hourly fast-paced production data entry job where they track your daily productivity so they can punish you if you’re too slow, to a job that doesn’t even track my hours. My new job is a return to my old field. I never wanted to leave my field in the first place, but things happened. I’m thrilled to be there but I have a (good?) problem and a question.

    Coming from a production-heavy environment, I’m finishing my work too fast and having to ask for more. I read questions and complaints here about people being slow and unproductive, but does it look bad when the new hire finishes all the work and then has nothing left to do? I’ve been looking at tutorials and techniques relating to the work that I do when I have nothing left. My supervisor knows that I’m doing this but doesn’t seem to care either way. I guess I’m just so used to a stressful work environment that I feel stress when I’m not busy. I worry I’ll be laid off or something, but I get the impression the workload fluctuates. I guess I’m looking for advice about handling it when things slow down.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve seen only a few stories of being “punished” for being too fast and needing to ask for work. Personally, I’ve only had it happen once [they started cramming so much stuff at me, when I said “stop” they got mad and acted like they were going to fire me…bless their shitty rotten out hearts, they don’t own a business anymore tho, so whateverrrrrr.] Which is why I know loath and shun salary myself, that was the only position I found myself in where they crammed that work down my throat because I was a “one price for all” kind of workhorse in the end.

      It’s usually a good quality to have and anywhere worth staying is going to appreciate your pace.

      Do yourself a favor and track your hours anyways. Just for personal stuff. Just on a scrap calendar at home. I found out that the labor department wants that if you have a wage theft claim. Lots of salary folks don’t know that. They just say that “Yeah of course I worked my 40+ hours” or 50 or whatever they’re expected to have. That’s my caution against salary because it can be abused and it can be a trap. I wouldn’t change punching a clock again for anything.

    2. 653-CXK*

      The first few weeks at CurrentJob last year, I had a hard time getting out of that production mode, being constantly on and trying to reach minimum targets. What they had me doing was cleaning out old files and recycling them, which was scut work but I was being paid better money than ExJob.

      Once I got into the real work was when I realized I didn’t have anyone looking at numbers, tsk-tsking that I wasn’t making standards, and not being dragged into a room to receive a piece of paper stating that I was going to be let go if I didn’t keep up. I could organize my day, make sound judgements about what to do, ask questions, etc. without being tied to someone’s fanatical obsession with “numbers.”

      My boss is totally hands-off when she needs to be – she knows I’m capable of the work and I do an excellent job at it. When there are times when I slip, she is more than willing to point it out (usually beginning with “Remember when I told you…”). Of course, there are times at CurrentJob that would want to make me scream profanities into a hat, but luckily those have been rare.

      You’re just starting out, so I wouldn’t worry about being laid off for lack of work. What you’re doing right now is fine – review your tutorials, even learn some things offline when you need to – and then once your workload picks up, you should be OK.

  193. Thinking about moving to the UK while middle-aged*

    Husband and I are thinking of moving to the UK this year, from another English-speaking country. We each have the right to work in the UK. However we are concerned about the possibility of getting work at our ages – me 48 and him 60 at our next birthdays. We are both very good & experienced at our jobs but don’t have any experience outside our country. I guess my questions for UK-based commenters is 1) how difficult will it be to get employment given our lack of UK experience? 2) How much of an impact will our ages have – especially Husband? Thank you

    1. Historic Hamlet Dweller*

      1) very field and location dependent. We have a fairly large number of very regulated industries, and the process to get UK bodies to recognise other certification can be tricky. Some bits of the UK are less… Open to migrant workers than others.

      2) you definitely wouldn’t, and if applying for senior roles your husband probably wouldn’t have age discrimination issues. A lot of organisations shortlist reasonably blind here (and we have laws about information gathering) so as long as he interviews well it might take a little longer but shouldn’t be an issue. Discriminating on the basis of protected characteristics is illegal, but obviously hard to prove.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d wonder if your ages won’t have as much of an effect as any possible economic downturn/contraction post-Brexit. Honestly I don’t see the U.K. as a particularly rosy prospect for someone looking to break into the job market, unless you have a solid job offer in hand. Or do you have contacts or some kind of family or professional network?

  194. Charlotte in her web*

    Sitting here at work during a break, listening to two of my coworkers and wanting to pull my hair out. As a woman on her 50s, other women who talk like little girls and use baby language are such a pet peeve of mine. Especially women in their 50s and 60s. Especially at WORK. We’re in finance! Act like the ptofessional you claim to be. How can you expect a customer to take you seriously when you act like this?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are they doing it in front of customers…or are they doing it among themselves?

      And really…most customers don’t care. Seriously. I have a lot of assorted women in professional positions that speak in whatever infantile tones they wish to and they’re well respected individuals with fantastic resumes.

      I understand it grates on your nerves because that’s what pet peeves do. But they’re not really doing anything wrong. Let them live their lives.

    2. WellRed*

      Careful. I commented here about a restaurant review that referenced a bartender using baby talk and half a dozen people took offense because she might have some sort of…something? Anything’s possible, but I’m big on thinking horses not zebras ; ) Sympathy, though. That’d drive me crazy.

    3. Miss Salty Grits*

      I swear I’m not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but sometimes women who have been abused as children have a vocal trait informally called “The Little Girl Voice,” where they speak in a pattern and manner of the age in which they were abused. That may be something different than what you’re talking about though, which sounds like it might just be women trying to be cutesy on purpose.

  196. Xania*

    I had pneumonia earlier this month. I’m currently “better” but I still have a lingering cough. I also have an in-person interview next week.

    The hiring manager knows I was sick (he asked how I was feeling during the phone interview), but what is good etiquette in this case? I’m going to be meeting with several people. I’ll cough into my elbow, but would it be weird to also carry/use hand sanitizer and to tell them I was sick earlier this month? I want to make a good impression, but I know I’m going to cough a few times.

    1. WellRed*

      Bring water and cough drops and maybe tissues, just in case. Not ideal, but as someone who gets into Random coughing fits, I try to be prepared. I’d probably tell them you had a lingering cough but are fine. ( don’t use the word sick. Maybe it’s me but it’s not a positive word so you don’t want it associated with you).

  197. It's Anon, Isn't It?*

    Soooo how do you go about reporting ableism at work? Do I use hr or the ombudsman?

    Communication has failed us, wonderful ones.

    I was gonna ask for accommodations, but uhhhh idk. There’s also racism afoot.

    1. WellRed*

      It sounds like you should start with HR, at least if you are in the US. There are laws about some of these things and they should know about them. Can’t speak to the ombudsman which I don’t think is too common but maybe look up what their role is in specific regard to your company.

      1. It's Anon, Isn't It?*

        I’m in the us, yeah.

        The ombudsman is new and does…something? I think they just tell me where to go to deal with x.

        I’ll look at the HR website on Monday. Thanks!

  198. Books on Office Politics*

    Hi All,

    Does anyone know some good books or blog posts on how to deal/prepare for office politics?

    There are sayings out there that advised us to avoid office politics, yet there are others out there that tell us it is impossible to avoid it. Then there are times when you have to take a job that has better pay, career advancement, etc. that will have office politics. There are times when the friendliest workplace will have a lower pay than a not-so-friendly workplace–and you might have no choice but to take the job with the office politics….

    So got any good book suggestions? Or thoughts?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you give some examples of what “politics” means to you?

      Not snark, I promise. Politics seems to be a category people use for all the various things that they don’t like or seem contentious. Think about what types of situations bother you the most.

      I think the number one thing you can read is anything by Alison right here. And just keep reading because there is always something new to learn. It’s not so much that all these rotten things will happen to you or anyone around you. It’s more about learning to think in an “office manner”, honing professional approaches to problems.

      I have read a lot of books/articles and I have never seen anything like what Alison is saying. It’s practical real life advice. You can take the advice and use it TODAY. Most of the other stuff I have read is stuff I would never do or never even consider doing. I found it got confusing to read these other books. Alison has books, you can start there and see what makes sense for your needs.

      1. Books on Office Politics*

        Office politics can be how to better interact in a workplace where people are more critical of you and where your small mistakes might have an a great impact on how management views you. It can also be a place where people might not be easy to work with because they don’t like your personality or the small quirks you made before. People might dislike you so much that you have to think carefully about the sensibleness or legitimacy of assignments they assigned you.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, that makes sense. I looked for years and in my opinion Alison’s got the best thing going on that there is period. Stay here and read Everything Alison. You will be okay if you follow her advice. You can join the open forum on Fridays and ask specific questions, too, like you did with this.

  199. Dreadful Job*

    Have any of you ever need to make a switch from a favorable workplace to a unfavorable one because of life circumstances? Such as starting a family, career advance, only place left to apply to after laid-off, need to pay the bills, moving to another place, adhering to culture, etc.

    How do you deal with having to work in an unfavorable environment because you needed the money to meet your financial or other life goals?

      1. Dreadful Job*

        It will be a change to a workplace where bosses and colleagues will be more critical of your quarks and your little mistakes (such as having to resend that one little invoice). The place might also be where gossip is more prevalent. The people might remember you more for your mistakes than your accomplishments. It might be harder to make friends at work. There might be cases where you have to evaluate whether the assignment given to you is within your ethical standards or not.

    2. Miss Salty Grits*

      I am in this position now. I have student loans and am at a very awkward, semi-junior, semi-senior stage in my career. Basically, when I search for jobs, they either want people fresh out of school or people with 3 or 8 more years of experience than I have.

      What has helped me has been solidifying my other goals and focusing on the positives of my job. For instance, I have really detailed financial savings goals and make a point to celebrate another “win” whenever I get paid. I like to transfer $500 out of each check toward my savings account, and think about how lucky I am to be able to do so. I also like to check my retirement account when I get paid, and my HSA. So just savoring the small wins, visualizing what I want for my future, and reminding myself that I’m not stuck there forever.

    3. Chaordic One*

      In my case, I went from a very good-paying clerical job in government to an underwhelming minimum-wage job in retail during the Great Recession. (One of my duties in retail was cleaning the restrooms. Enough said.) I hope this doesn’t sound too goody two shoes, but I just concentrated on doing the work and doing it as well as I could, while making minimum payments on all my outstanding bills. And I kept applying for other work.

  200. AcadLibrarian*

    My manager asked me this week how I’d feel about another manager reporting to me. I had to point out that it would be awkward for both of us. The other manager was my original manager and the person who hired me. And then he got demoted. I know this happens occasionally, but we work in an academic library and it’s fairly uncommon. It’s already unusual I’ve moved up from a dept head to a director of several departments at the same library. It’s commonly accepted in libraries that to move up, you have to move on. I mean, I’m going to say yes. I have no problem with my former manager, but I want to be sensitive to the situation. Sigh.

    1. WellRed*

      Can you flat out acknowledge to him that the situation is awkward or would that make it worse? It sound like maybe you’re such a superstar everyone knows it and it will all make sense anyway?

  201. Work parties sure are complicated, huh?*

    New to the formal/corporate workplace here! I’ve been working almost a month at a big law firm since getting my PhD.

    Are retirement parties the kind of thing everyone goes to and socializes at, or are they more for people who actually know the guest(s) of honor? Two of the partners are retiring next month, and the party invitation went out to all staff at our office. Obviously, since I haven’t been here long, I don’t really know them. They’re also not on the team I’m working with, so I haven’t run into them tangentially either. But also I could see this being the sort of thing that the rest of the office uses as an excuse to bond/socialize.

    If this was for a professor in my department in grad school, I wouldn’t hesitate to go even if I didn’t know them well/at all. But that might just be that it’s socially acceptable for grad students to flock to free food+beer anytime they’re invited.

    So I guess my question is both can I go and should I go?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      You can definitely go, since you were invited. If you get the feeling that the firm is big on appearances or there’s an expectation that everyone clears their schedules for these events, then you should go and make sure you say congratulations to the retiring partners. :-)

      However, since you’re so new and you don’t really know the guests of honor, I also think you’re fine not going if you don’t feel like it. I would probably only go if I knew several of my closer coworkers were going and I would enjoy socializing with them (because that would probably be 95% of the party for me!).

    3. Gatomon*

      I generally decide based on degrees of closeness and importance. I’m betting this is a situation where you’d want to at least show, since they are partners. However law can be weird. It might be a good idea to check in with anyone else at your level, or even your boss, to get an idea of whether you should go and what to expect. It’ll also help to connect with people, like using the office lunchroom for the first week.

      Otherwise my thought process is this:
      – Worked closely > hierarchical weirdness, so attend the party, even if you didn’t get along. Optics are key and the cake tastes sweeter when your BEC’s name is on it. I have been very happy for some retirement parties….
      – Did not work closely < hierarchical weirdness, attend only if the person could plausibly know what your job was and if higher ups might note your absence. (So as a sales engineer, I’d pass on the party for one of our customer service reps or the finance VP, but attend for the sales VP or for a tech support staffer.)

  202. OnTheFence*

    Hi Everyone! So I have been working at my job for 3 years. The work is interesting and I enjoy my team. My evaluations always go well and I have even got a couple of raises. I am currently the “go to” on my team and have several people who value my advise and help while completing our jobs. The issues have started when we got a new VP. He immediately began restructuring our division and has kept his plans a secret. We only find out about his plans the day that they go into effect and even still, our managers are usually still withholding a lot of information from us . We even had new hires start that we weren’t even aware of. To top it all off, one of these new hires was brought in at a manager level (higher rank and more pay than me). We are the same age (still only a couple of years out of college) and I do have much more experience in this industry than he does. I am also the one training him on everything. I am pretty disappointed that I was not even made aware that the manager role was available. I am wondering if it is in my best interest to begin looking for another job. I am afraid to lose all of the benefits that I listed at the top but at the same time, I feel that I am always going to be overlooked for a promotion or even worse, that the restructuring will results in layoffs. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Miss Salty Grits*

      I would talk to your boss about it (in a genuinely questioning/noncombative way) but also be willing to consider other roles. Sometimes something like this can be a signal that upper management doesn’t see you in a leadership role, and isn’t willing to put you in one.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I would not recommend working in a place loaded with secrets. Your VP is way too interested in secrets. It’s not healthy. This can get very toxic very fast. I have worked in these places with surprise new hires and some of the other things you mention. Yes, start looking. Think of it this way, you currently have gotten yourself interesting work, enjoyable team, good evals, a couple raises and most telling you have made yourself into a go-to person. You can do this again, and you can do it at a better place. The skills that got you all of this things will travel with you to the next job and get you these things again.

  203. Kate H*

    I want to ask my grandboss (Michael) for a private meeting next week to discuss my boss’s (Josh) behavior but I don’t know how to approach it.

    I’ve worked under Josh for almost three years. He’s an okay boss and really goes to bat for us in terms of raises, as much as he’s able in our organization. Michael is our department head and works remotely most of the time.

    Josh is abrasive, micro-managing, and unprofessional, and he’s only gotten worse over the past few weeks. He’s made it a goal over the past year to delegate more work to my coworker and I, but at the same time he needs to know every detail of the projects we’re working on or he gets visibly anxious. Every step, every follow-up email, has to be documented. He also has a tendency to respond to questions and reminders with patronizing information that I already know.

    I’m currently working on a report that he’ll have to share with upper management. I’ve asked him three times to take a look at it because I want to make sure that I’m moving in the right direction so I have time to course correct if I’m not. Instead, he’s reiterated the (vague) directions he was given and directed me to work with Eleanor in another department (we’re collaborating on the meat of the project).

    This all came to a head today when Eleanor forwarded me a request to put together a list of our highest-selling teapots. It was similar to a project we’re currently collaborating on and I already had the raw data. This morning, Josh found out she’s asked me and he went off. Without talking to me, he sent an email to Michael saying that she should never have reached out to us and we needed to have a talk about priorities later.

    On a team meeting with Michael, I brought it up. Josh was argumentative when I explained to him that it was similar to our current project (he said it wasn’t), that we had the data (he said we didn’t), and that she couldn’t run the specific information required as easily as our team (he disagreed). Then, when Josh, Eleanor, and I had a private meeting to discuss other projects, Josh was actively combative, arguing that there was a disconnect between instructions they were both given (this is a common problem with upper management, I know Josh knows this). If Eleanor said “VP wants these reports sent to him on Monday” he would say “Who said that? Where was it said? I never heard that.”

    We’re under a lot of stress right now, and I feel like Josh is letting it get to him and taking it out on everyone around him. Michael is coming into town all next week and I want to request a meeting with him to discuss Josh’s behavior. Any suggestions on how I can approach this meeting?

    1. LGC*

      You’re probably right in that Josh is taking his stress out on you.

      I’d come from a place of concern, since that sounds less antagonistic (and I think you ARE concerned about his change in behavior!). I’d also consider having an answer for why you’re going to Michael – it sounds like you don’t think Josh would be receptive based on his actions.

    2. Miss Salty Grits*

      I’ve seen this once before, with my previous supervisor. She went absolutely ballistic about something completely inconsequential, and ended up taking another job a couple of weeks later. I suspect that Josh could be going through some job or life stress that isn’t related to you.

      I would say that you have a list of problems in your head along with examples and with solutions. Your report is a good one: He assigned you a report and refused to take a look at it despite you telling him very clearly that you didn’t have time to fix it.

      As far as your other example…my first impression, to be honest, is that I’m kind on Josh’s side in his actions even though his demeanor kind of sucks. Maybe there’s some aspect of this that I’m not seeing but Josh is your manager. He knows that you’re under the gun for Project A, but Eleanor is reaching out to you about Project B, which he is displeased about. I think in this case the only dick move was to go to Michael instead of directly telling you “I want you to focus elsewhere.”

      Eleanor bringing up other projects (presumably to task you with them) and Josh as your manager disagreeing with how they should be prioritized seems kind of normal. Josh wanting to cover his ass, and to know who’s asking for these projects, seems kind of normal as well. Again, I’m sure there’s some aspect of this that I’m not seeing but before you go over his head to Michael I would pinpoint what that is-does he yell? Does he swear? You’re saying that he’s “combative” but your manager’s prerogative is to task you, even if that means pushing back on other people’s attempts to task you.

      1. Kate H*

        I want to note that I do understand where Josh is coming from on Eleanor’s Project B. If Josh had said “That was Eleanor’s request to fill and she only should have come to you if she really needed information from our team. Please run these requests by me in the future before taking action” and then been professional in our meeting with Eleanor later in the day, I’d let it go.

        He doesn’t swear or yell. When Josh is upset, he talks in this rapid-fire, anxious tone. Instead of calmly saying “Can you forward me the emails where this was said?” he says “Who told you that? When? Where? That doesn’t make sense.” Our VP asked for three reports last week. One of them will be covered in a meeting on Tuesday. No one knows when the other two are supposed to be sent. Eleanor wants to send them on Monday, but Josh says that it hasn’t been decided who will send them and when. This only makes sense to Josh, because these are about to become biweekly reports and in order to continue doing them, we need to know that the format is acceptable. We can’t know the format is acceptable without sending them.

        I recently learned that Josh is seeking a promotion to Michael’s level. I know his abrupt and abrasive behavior in emails to other departments has been addressed by Michael before and I want him to know that it’s a wider issue than a few irate emails.

    1. Meißner Porcelain Teapot*

      I’ve been wondering the same! Last I heard, they had gotten that HR government job they had been crossing their fingers for and were about to start in that job and since then… nothing. :S
      If they have changed their user name and have actually been posting since then, I missed the memo.

  205. Meepmeep*

    Anyone has any advice for how I can help my wife? My wife has a law practice. I am also an attorney and work for her. This is a new practice area for me, so she’s definitely the boss and I’m working for her.

    She wants to bring a third person as an “of counsel” in the firm. He has been helping her on a contract basis until now. He generally handles court appearances for her when she can’t do one, and does some research and writing. She wants him to take a more involved role now that the firm is growing.

    She wanted to schedule a meeting for all three of us to talk about the firm’s pending matters, what needs to be done, and how to divide up the work. He didn’t show up and didn’t call. A few days later, turns out he was in the hospital. We nodded sympathetically and rescheduled. Again, no call and no show. This time it was a death in the family.

    Today, I found out that he’d also left my wife in the lurch with a hearing (he let her know an hour before the hearing that he was unable to represent the client), and didn’t show up for a client meeting.

    All of this is waving huge red flags at me, and if I were the boss, I would not be scheduling any more meetings with this character. But I’m not the boss. Can any of you suggest some wording for me to convince my wife to not give this guy another chance? She wants to try again with him and I shudder to think what will happen next. I’m not against her bringing another attorney into the firm – I just don’t want it to be this one. Help?

    1. Miss Salty Grits*

      I would try and understand why she wants to give this guy another chance, *without* putting words into her mouth. Genuinely listen, and then explain your own position and your fears. I would also underscore that whatever he does reflects on her. It’s not only your good name but hers that he’s playing fast and loose with. Do you have any idea why she wants to give him another chance?

      1. Meepmeep*

        I think it’s mostly that she doesn’t like conflict and doesn’t want to be mean to anyone (for all that she’s a fearless litigator, she’s a softie outside the courtroom). She’s also really excited about expanding the firm, and getting rid of this guy would mess up that plan temporarily. And I get both of these positions – I’m just less afraid to be mean to people.

        1. Koala dreams*

          Maybe you can point out that it’s unkind to have someone take on a more involved role when they are in hospital or dealing with health issues? I understand that your wife wants to be kind to a good friend who have fallen upon hard times, but if the friend isn’t up to the work, it’s the opposite of kind.

          1. MeepMeep*

            That might be a good tack to take. It’s not even that he’s all that good of a friend – more like an acquaintance – but my wife is just a softie and hates the idea of being mean. If I can frame it as being nice to him, maybe she’ll go for it.

            1. valentine*

              What happens next time he’s AWOL and she can’t make the hearing or what have you? Is this guy worth the cost to her reputation and clients? Could they lose their jobs or kids over court dates?

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Is he some kind of old friend or like a law school colleague or something? As you know, sometimes those old relationships can cloud one’s judgment when it comes to offering work to a fellow lawyer. It can make it hard to really hear when somebody asks, “So what will you do next time he blows a deadline, or doesn’t show for a hearing, never mind missing a client meeting?”

      I’d really emphasize the risk to her business and her reputation if he blows a deadline or skips a hearing. Also failing to communicate at all? I do fully understand that he was in the hospital that time, but lack of communication is a professional responsibility problem. This guy is bad news in the professional context.

  206. Risti*

    I recently applied/interviewed for a promotion within my own company. This is a management position within a commission retail sales environment where some of the highest paid employees are non-management sales superstars, because of the commission/bonus structure. I am not one of the superstars, but I do well for myself (50K annually) and I have over five years of management experience in smaller retail settings.

    When I took this job, tbh, I was a bit burned out and honestly just enjoyed that I could make more money not in management at this job then in previous management positions. But I have been here for years, and not being one of those superstars, I will make more money in management, and frankly I’m getting bored and I find I’m already the “go to” person for newer employees to ask the kind of questions management should be training them on, but aren’t.

    Nonetheless, I have been with this company long enough in a non management position I feel like my willingness to “help” is taken advantage of, and that honestly most of my coworkers/supervisors have either forgotten or never really knew I have as much or more actual management experience then some of them. Granted it’s in a different environment, but many things relating to training, coaching, scheduling, etc transfer over.

    My first interview was with the manager who I am closest with in the company – he first hired me back when he actually held the position I am now applying for, and while we’ve both swapped around locations over the years, we’ve worked together more than not. He actually commented about how he “didn’t need to look at my resume” while interviewing me, but then midway through the interview actually admitted that he had to double check because he didn’t realize how long I’d been in a management position I kept referring back to in my answers.

    It sounds like my second interview will be this weekend when the next level boss stops by the store. I also worked directly with him before he was promoted to his current position, and actually had chatted years ago with him about a management position that was given to a more qualified candidate at the time, but I have a feeling he may not even remember that.

    Any advice on the best way to highlight the fact that I have the experience for this position and should be taken seriously as a candidate? There have been a couple of signs that almost make me feel like they’ve just been humouring me throughout this process. Also, I am a woman and the vast majority of management (and sales) positions in this company are men, and from what I‘ve seen my “competition” for this position are all men who are younger than me (I’m 36) with “potential” vs “experience”.

    If I have to stand back and softly “train” another manager in how to transition from sales to management (something I’ve low key done including with the first guy who interviewed me) I will be forced to look elsewhere. To be clear, at the end of the day, I love my coworkers, most days I love my job, and it’s honestly relatively easy work for the money. But if there will never be growth…..

    1. Miss Salty Grits*

      I think one of the biggest mistakes that we women make is thinking that we can “help” our way into a promotion, or that we’re shoring up capital or favors for ourselves by being willing to “help.” Unless you can really make that a selling point (with concrete examples) in your interview for this and other positions, I would stop expending your time and energy or you’re going to end up feeling burnt out. It’s easy to fall into the trap of resenting people who don’t meet our unvoiced expectations, and it sounds like you’re at least partially there.

      On another note, you said that you’re not one of the “sales superstars,” but that your competition is all men who have “potential vs. experience.” Is it possible that some of these men *are* the “sales superstars”? If so (and even if not) I would just come out and say “I have X years of management experience supervising Y employees,” and talk about how management is something that you’re comfortable with, that you’re good at, and that you won’t need a lot of training to do well.

      1. Risti*

        I’m there with you on the “helping” thing, and have actually tried to turn it off, but I find it still naturally creeps in and at the end of the day it is part of my nature in a positive way that I don’t really want to lose.

        As for the sales superstars…. I work for a store that is part of a franchise which runs about 25 stores as part of larger corporate company which has hundreds of stores. One of my coworkers is the top writer in North America. That’s who was given the management position that I applied for years ago (he ended up stepping down from it a year later because he realized he’d rather just sell). Another guy who was recently promoted is not too far below him. I didn’t even think to apply vs him even though he has had a learning curve to figure out management.

        The guys who I’d be competing against at this point are all people with a similar sales record as me, which is similar to other people who have been promoted to this position in the past.

  207. Opinions Needed*

    I’m (a junior employee) bracing to receive some very negative feedback from the much more senior “James” and my supervisor “Sarah,” about a Teapot Report, and I’d love others’ impressions/advice on the situation.

    The Teapot Report is a “forever project” that James inherited three years ago, which bounced around between his predecessors for three years before that. I was vaguely aware of it, since I collected some emails for James’ predecessor, and once sent documents to an outside Teapot Consultant Oliver at James’ request.

    James didn’t say anything about it for several months, or indicated that he wanted to move forward, until he abruptly asked me in November “Where is Oliver on the Teapot Report?” Baffled, I replied that I didn’t know, asked him if he wanted me to check, and James snapped “He knows that we’re ready to submit it, just get me the [expletive] Teapot Report.” Oliver stated to me that we were approaching the external deadline to either submit the Teapot Project, or be permanently disqualified from doing so at all. After that I verbally told James the date at least twice, and Oliver said he had emailed James separately and would be sure to call him about the date.

    Oliver sent the first Teapot Report Draft two weeks before the external deadline, copying James. We exchanged a couple of emails where the submission date was stated, again copying James. Oliver told me that he would call James again, and I verbally told James “Oliver says that we need to submit on X day, and said he’s sending more revisions later.” Revisions arrived the day before the report was due. I made some superficial grammar/spelling/style edits (like correcting our company address and the spelling of my name) and said “Please don’t submit tomorrow until James approves.”

    James was furious. He said he hadn’t gotten permission from my grand boss, or run the Teapot Report by senior leadership, and that now we wouldn’t be able to submit it at all. He sent me a castigating email about how I should have been managing Oliver, didn’t know how to prioritize anything, and how he had absolutely no clue that we had to submit the Teapot Report the next day. Ultimately, we didn’t submit anything, and I assume his email was forwarded to Sarah.

    My perspective has always been that I’m (essentially) James’ admin support when I get pulled in to help him. I’ve retrieved documents, scheduled calls, and generally don’t act until he tells me the parameters of what he needs, since in the past when I’ve tried to guess, I’ve guessed incorrectly. I was genuinely unaware that *he* was unaware of the deadline, and the only thing I could say when James confronted me (before emailing) was that I was sorry and that I thought we had discussed it enough for him to be aware. I’m not ever involved in the substantive preparation and submission of Reports, so I was also unaware that it needed to be run by my grand boss or senior leadership. (James actually has an admin assistant who used to do a weekly Project Status Tracker for him, but she’s recently told me he hasn’t asked her for it in a long time, and this would have been something that went on it.) Because the Report is so simple (5 pages, no complex math or citations) and James said “Oliver knows we’re ready to submit,” I thought it would be simple for James to sign off.

    James seems to be of the mindset that he handed off Oliver and the Teapot Report for me to manage, and that I needed to manage him as well. In the meeting (that I’m sure we’re going to have with Jessica) I had thought of saying “If I’m supposed to assume that I’m managing every matter where you ask me to retrieve documents, I would be managing literally everything without being told anything,” but that’s overly combative. I’m just not sure what to say or think at this point, and (while I continue to work okay with James on a day-to-day basis) I’m dreading a formal confrontation.

    1. Anonymouse for this*

      That’s horrible. James screwed up and is now trying to blame anyone but himself. I hope your manager has your back because James is seriously out of line in making this your fault. Is there any chance you can talk to your supervisor beforehand so you can explain the situation and the steps you took? I’m in two minds as to whether you have a timeline written out of the whole situation so you can make it clear you did keep James in the loop – might not go down well with James if he’s being aggressive. Or you say you are going to work with his admin to see if there are any similar reports etc that may come up in the future so this doesn’t happen again. Hope the meeting goes way better than you think it will.

      1. Opinions Needed*

        Thank you. I think that James will likely say that I should have taken more initiative and been more anticipatory of his needs. I’m genuinely torn on whether or not I should have done more to really put it under his nose and say “The Teapot Report has to be filed by X day, are we ready to do so?” But again I thought that he knew from our discussions/emails, and at the time I had no reason to distrust Oliver when he said that he had emailed and called him.

        I had planned to give a general timeline to my supervisor like I described above and explain my reasoning, and then say a few things that I plan to do in the future to avoid this happening again. I think that a big part of the problem is that James has always treated me like I can read his mind, and I absolutely a) don’t have the experience to do so or to anticipate much; and b) can’t read his mind. Sometimes my guesses as to what he wants pans out well (I just spent a lot of time creating a document for him out of nothing that he absolutely loves, for which I utilized Calculus and which he described in terms of Basic Algebra) and sometimes they don’t, as in this case. And I “don’t know what I don’t know,” which is to say I had no idea he had to vet the Teapot Report for approval so I didn’t think to ask him if Oliver needed to hand it to us much earlier than he did.

  208. Books on Office Politics*

    Office politics can be how to better interact in a workplace where people are more critical of you and where your small mistakes might have an a great impact on how management views you. It can also be a place where people might not be easy to work with because they don’t like your personality or the small quirks you made before. People might dislike you so much that you have to think carefully about the sensibleness or legitimacy of assignments they assigned you.

  209. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

    Has anyone had post “honeymoon” new-job mini blues? I’ve been in my job a year now. It’s still good, and still a huge improvement over previous toxic job, but I’m feeling weirdly slightly bummed. Kinda like getting the first scratch on a new car. You know it will happen, you know the car will have tons of small scratches later from regular wear and tear/runaway shopping carts, etc. but the first once means it’s no longer a new car, but it’s still new-ish…

    1. NicoleK*

      Yes, I’ve been in my new role for almost 3 months now. I missed certain parts of my old job. My problem is that I’m not officially divorced from old job yet. Additionally, I’m starting to see issues arising from the team that I’m on too. Good times.

  210. Jean (just Jean)*

    One more message to John S:
    We may be internet strangers here, but the concern for your well-being is genuine. Folks *really mean it* when they encourage you to hang in there and call the national suicide hotline 1-800-273-8255.
    Please, please understand that you are unique and have something good to contribute to the world! Take care of yourself and also let others help you. And in a while please drop by one of the weekend open threads to tell us how you’re doing. In the meantime, draw some comfort from the good wishes being sent to you.

    1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Another thing for John S about student loans in particular: I’m assuming you’re in the US. Have you looked at whether you are eligible for income based repayment? My original payments were set to be over $1500 every month at a time when I was unemployed and having no luck with jobs at all. I was similarly near suicidal. But I found out that I was eligible for IBR and my payments literally dropped to zero. As long as I apply for it every year my payments are a manageable amount, and the balance is supposed to be written off after 20 years. I would imagine that you would qualify for some kind of reduced payment if you are only getting 31 hours a week.

  211. Anon For This*

    Oof, so I had a doozy of an interview at a company yesterday. I have interviewed at this company before, and all of those interviews have been quite the same. Perhaps a slightly different format, but the same basics.

    I really was interested in this job, but it would have been outside of my direct field, and they liked me enough that they invited me for the second to last round. Before this I had to do a video interview thing in English.

    So, I arrive at the interview as prepared as I can be, and suddenly I hear through the door if this interview should be in English or German? And there was a consensus of German. I was like “uh oh” as I had completely prepared in English and had only briefly brushed up my German. Although I do have Advanced German, I need to prepare specific wording and vocab for interviews, same as in English. Normally the interviews are 80% English and 20% German. This one was 90% German and 10% English for a position which would require significantly more English than any other language.

    Now the thoughts are going through my head, was this a challenge for me to see how I deal with this? There were some miscommunications and I fixed them, but overall I felt like it went significantly worse than if I had done it in English. Was this team just disorganized and this is a red flag? For what the position would be (like international coordination) I felt it was a little tone deaf and turned me off slightly of the whole team and section of the company.

  212. Stuck millenial*

    After 7 years of living abroad I have decided to go back to my country of origin (they’re both in Europe). I miss my family, cannot afford to travel 2x/year to visit, and my current employer offers me no career advancement or salary increase.
    As I live in a small country, jobs are limited let alone for emigrants.

    The thing is, the place I’m planning to move to is very expensive (capital city + gentrification!) and in 4 months I only got 2 job interviews for which I was not selected.

    I’m almost 28 and still in an admin assistance position, which i don’t dislike but the pay is very bad. I graduated (MSc degree) when the crisis hit Europe and even though my field was politics/advocacy I never managed to do more than a couple internships and volunteer work related to my studies. So I eventually started to do admin work (which I ended up liking) and now I feel like I’m stuck:
    I am now only fit for HR/admin/EA/OM positions and even then I’m struggling to get associate levels interviews. Junior positions, on the other hand, are very precarious and underpaid. I wish I could find a job in my field, but with little experience it’s hard to find more experience.

    Is someone in a similar situation???? I’m so fucking frustrated, every month I struggle with paying rent, cannot afford health insurance, and I terribly miss my family and friends back home. What’s worse, I’m a lesbian and feel very lonely at times. My romantic life as well as my professional like is a joke. I have loving friends and family, but I want more and all I want seems so out of reach/not in my hands.

    I know, I could move to a third country but I’ve done that 3 times and am exhausted of that “nomadic” life.

    Anyways, I guess I’m looking for fellow millennials in similar careers or situations to vent with and hear from them, as I could really use some hope here!!

  213. Retail not Retail*

    My horrible partner is mocking me after being told not to.

    I said a task didn’t feel safe. My manager did it and said it was, but then a couple hours later came by and said you don’t have to do it since you feel unsafe (i assume he talked to someone in safety?).

    It still has to be done every other day. Today my partner is doing it and wearing a hard hat and said it’s because this task is unsafe.

    A hard hat and a partner don’t erase the dangers of the task – being in a busy street at rush hour!

    I cannot stand this man and had to work with him every single day all summer long. We don’t have a jokey relationship. Help.

  214. valentine*

    What if you agree with him that you’re a crybaby or whatever, or sing “Stayin’ Alive”? I might recite something and stop only if he does, picking up where I left off each time. Can you yawn? What might make it get old for him? (Apart from, you know, being run over.)

  215. Liz47*

    I’m newly out of grad school (yay!) and have continued working as a temp contractor at my current company while I hunt for a professional gig with my shiny new degree. The company where I’m currently temping is big enough that they have a department where I would now love to work with my new degree. Should I ask my current supervisor to put in a good word for me, or should I stay quiet? We have a great relationship and I know she’s happy with my work. I know the conventional wisdom is to keep quiet with a current employer, but my supervisor is aware that I’ve finished my degree program. And this would be staying with the same company, just a different department. Are the rules different? I don’t want to miss out on a good reference/connection. Thanks!

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