open thread – February 14-15, 2020

by Alison Green on February 14, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Middle Manager*

    Looking for some guidance on responding to group emails that occur frequently in my office. We often get emails from other areas of our large department or the public sent to a group of staff not addressed to any one person in particular. Generally it’s because the sender doesn’t know who the point person is for the topic they are asking about. If I’m on one of these chains and I’m the point person, I always feel responsible to respond. If someone else is the point person, I assume they’ll respond. But sometimes it’s a vague request or off the wall or touches on multiple areas and no one on the email is the clear owner of the response. In those cases, who is the person responsible to answer? The highest ranking person? The lowest? The person most closely related to the request though not directly responsible? Someone else? How do I know. I’ve tried to pay attention to any patterns at my office, but I honestly can’t find one, other than the problematic one below.

    For context, I’m a pretty OCD person (clinically, not an expression) and work towards zero inbox (almost never get there, but generally my inbox is single digit, so I’m in the ballpark). What I’m finding is that it sometimes drives me to take responsibility for responding to emails that shouldn’t really be mine, just to get them actioned and cleared out of my inbox, and then my workload keeps growing because people start to assume I’m responsible to continue to lead the conversation. I’m actively trying to cut down on volunteering myself for work outside my scope, but I’m really unclear which emails I can chose to ignore and assume someone else will respond to and which ones I should still take on.

    1. We ask for peace and understanding*

      I think the highest ranking person should either respond or assign it to someone else for response. Otherwise, how do you know that multiple people won’t respond to the same message?

          1. valentine*

            Just because no one else has responded doesn’t mean you should. By not responding, you give others the chance to take point.

            You can have inbox zero and to-do folders. Create folders for things you’re waiting for info on and by estimated response time, like within 48 hours or up to a week. You can also filter group emails or anything not sent to you directly.

          1. Em*

            My work reply all’s like that constantly. We have to cc like 5 different people on every email and everyone uses reply all. It’s not the worst ever for what we do, which is research.

    2. Joie*

      Generally I tend to go with “do you have the answer on hand/ is this task on your plate” ignore if not. Generally, the lowest ranking person will do the digging – because fact finding is usually part of their job not because of rank – if it’s a question, but decisions usually go to whomever has the task that this would be directly related to if not 100% part of someones role.

      But it’s also company specific so maybe touch base with some coworkers to see how to they handle these and do the same?

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Most groups (especially groups that support other areas) have a specific mailbox for such inquiries and it is someone’s job (either one person or rotating) to ensure that the requests are assigned to the right person.

      1. TheAssistant*

        This! If your department is so large your internal staff don’t know to whom to direct a question, you need a common inbox and a responsible checker/assigner of tasks.

    4. Ashley*

      If you don’t feel like you should respond but aren’t sure try your email snooze button. This will bring the email back in the time period set. It helps me with my email anxiety. As a frequent email checker I tend to be the first to respond, but this helps curb the impulse so others can. I would also check-in with your manager or if there is a team meeting about how to handle ones that are clear cut.

    5. Lalitah28*

      As an executive assistant/administrative assistant since 1995, I have had the same experience with being the virtual dumping ground for any inquiry people didn’t know or didn’t want to address. Here’s how I cut down on it:

      1. made a list of the most common inquiries and where I sent them for eventual resolution, confirming that they were the right person to resolve the problem or address the inqury;

      2. created a directory, a simple MS Word Table, with the description of general type of inquiry (think a one sentence phrase) and in column two, who to send it to (inclued person’s name, title, email address, fax number, and snail mail, if applicable)

      This cut down so much on inquiries and provided the fodder for the creation of email distribution lists to further refine the process and have team-based email groups.

      Hope this helps.

        1. Lalitah28*

          Glad to be of help. Also, one of absolute FAVORITE productivity books that I hooked one of most unproductive bosses was The Organized Executive by Stephanie Winston (ISBN-10: 0446676969, ISBN-13: 978-0446676960). It has really easy, practical productivity and simple project management tips that anyone starting out in their career can put into practice.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If “frequently” means 5+ times a week, consider a shared email address that anyone in the group can access & answer. My IT department did that for us. We get a lot of vague questions & misdirected questions as well as the feedback we were hoping for. An auto-reply says it is not monitored daily, and that it’s intended for XYZ, so if they’re looking for ABC please contact the sales team or tech support line. One person is assigned to check it every week or so. Currently that’s me… I set up a few standard signature lines to use for forwarding them to sales team or tech support in case the sender ignored the autoreply.

    7. june june hannah*

      It’s part of our team culture that when an email goes out to a large group or our department distribution list, we’ll reply back just to those on our team with “got it!” so everyone else knows it’s being handled.

    8. Sparkelle*

      Leadership needs to shut that down and have a stern talking to with whoever does it. Sending out emails to an entire department because you don’t know the correct person to send it to is lazy and wastes enormous amounts of time, especially if it evolves into a reply-all “not me, please take me off your list” frenzy. You say these include emails from the public, which is more problematic. I’m not understanding why departmental email groups are accessible to the public. The public should be directed to one mailbox monitored by someone whose job it is to find the right specific person to deal with it.

    9. Anononon*

      This sounds like my workplace. So many emails with like eight-plus people included.

      For better or (mostly) worse, we have a strong culture of everyone does their specific job and won’t do anything outside the scope of that. So if an email isn’t directed specifically to me or in my area, I just unread it and move on. I’m not going to take on other people’s problems. And, in my department, there’s also a culture of once you’re involved in matter, you’re in it till the end.

    10. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Sounds like is not your responsibility, so delete the email. If someone doesn’t get a response to their vague question, then they’ll ping again, or who knows, maybe they’re already working on it behind the scenes. But sounds like for your sanity, and your ability to prioritize your scope of work, you should delete these emails (or maybe even create a new folder in your inbox for misc emails)

    11. NW Mossy*

      This is a perfect opportunity to make sure you’re clear on your own priorities and that you’re aligned with your boss on them.

      I bump into this issue a lot because I’ve worked in a number of different areas in my business line over the years, which translates into a big network of people who look at me as a resource. What really helped me get control back of these inquiries was to learn to spot questions that aren’t tied to my priorities and use a combination of ignoring (where the right person is included), delegating (when it’s my area but can be handled by my direct), and redirecting (when the right person is someone not included) for them.

      Long term, big aliases as an intake for work are horrid and should be avoided at all costs. They don’t work well for exactly this reason – it’s needlessly difficult to assign ownership and ensure follow-through in this kind of system.

    12. Chronic Overthinker*

      I have this happen often as well! We have multiple offices so some email is sent company wide so that the right person gets it, but then everyone gets the replies as well. If it’s something I can handle or know I need to take care of, I’ll reply all and then reply to the necessary individuals for follow up. If it’s not, then it gets sent to an email folder and eventually disposed as necessary.

    13. Middle Manager*

      Thanks all. Some good suggestions. For context, when I say a large department, I mean a department as in a cabinet level government agency for a large state with approximately 20,000 employees. We do definitely have shared office email addresses for various offices/bureaus in the department and official points of contacts between those entities, but in practice, they aren’t really observed. I would love for us to get more organized around that, but I am in no way high enough in the agency to solve that problem.

      For the public, it’s often advocates, businesses that we oversee/interact with, that sort of thing. So they often have specific staff emails for a real reason, they’ve interacted with them previously on other issues that made sense. But now they have a random question and they are basically just throwing in any staff person email that they think might be able to help. I think I get on a disproportionate number of these emails because I manage our public stakeholder meetings, so my contact information is WAY more frequently published than a lot of my peers, members of the public meet me at the meetings, and I just become SOMEONE that might be able to help them.

      Love the suggestions above. Especially snoozing email. That’s not a feature I’m currently using and I think that might really help me to feel okay about not responding, knowing I’ll get a reminder if no one else jumps in in a reasonable time frame.

    14. Gatomon*

      People should be taking turns and distributing the load as equally as possible when taking into account people’s areas of expertise. Generally if it’s a complicated topic we have a SME for, I do expect that person to chime in unless I know they are unable to, like if they’re on PTO or I happen to know they are swamped with some other thing. Otherwise I think people should grab work when they are able to and know when things are getting unfair. Our boss usually does not get involved in responses unless there’s an issue that requires management input. That’s usually something like a process/procedural issue or a decision that just needs to be blessed by someone higher up.

      If an email addresses multiple pieces and I feel I need to respond, but can only respond to some of it, I will specifically state up front that I am addressing X, but that I am requesting/hoping for/soliciting input on Y and Z from others. It seems to work pretty well for our company.

      As for cleaning your inbox, do you use folders at all? I keep several folders based on deadline (google “The Only 5 Email Folders You’ll Ever Need” to find the article that inspired me) and if there’s something I could respond to, but thing it would be better to wait and okay to wait for someone else more qualified to chime in first, I stash in the Today or This Week folder so I don’t lose track of it. That way I can still see a “clean” inbox and know to check on the message if it’s gone unanswered too long.

  2. Insert witty user name here*

    I just want to thank Alison and all of the readers/commenters! I learn so much here!

    4. Anonymous Fed*

      Agreed! I’ve learned a lot about how I might navigate work situations from this site. And I’ve recommended it to others when they need help about a work thing.

  3. Misty*

    I posted on 1/24 about how I couldn’t decide if I should change my major. Then on 1/31 saying I would stick with social work. 

    I’m a 2nd semester sophomore and middle manager at a drug store. (20k a year full time) I’ve worked hard to save money so I could go back to school. The reason I felt comfortable going back to school was because I felt I had a strong plan. I go to a state school and don’t have any loans. I’m not sure how relevant this is to whether or not I should change my major to a major where I don’t know what kind of job I’d get.
    My plan was to get my BSW, go into the 1 year MSW program, and become a therapist. I would be going to school for three more years but would come out with a masters. 
    Part of the reason I went into social work is because I had bad stuff happen when I was younger so I’ve met a lot of social workers and have had a lot of people tell me that I could help people with my life experience. I may have internalized the message about how I could turn the bad into good by helping people. Realizing that now made me think maybe social work isn’t “all” I can do and maybe it’s not my job to “redeem” the bad stuff that happened to me as a kid in order to help others. Maybe I can do something else. It’s hard to let go of the plan I had, and the guilt I feel for not wanting to help the people who went through what I went through. 

    I can’t stand my social work classes. I find them boring and depressing. The material is super heavy while the actual class work is too easy. My spring break is four weeks away and I’ve done all of the readings and five small papers I needed to write that are due before then. My professors are telling me to stick it out at least through next year when I do my internship because there’s a lot of different types of social work jobs and maybe I’ll like one and I’m a good candidate for the 1 year MSW program or honors program. However staying in SW for another year means if I changed my major after that, I would have added a year onto the amount of time I would have to be in college in order to graduate with a bachelors in something else.
    A month ago I was considering changing my major to psych because I would be one year away from graduating if I did that and I like psych classes. However, I realized I have no interest in doing anything in that field and it’s too close to social work for me now.
    I’m thinking of changing my major to english. If I changed my major before next semester, it wouldn’t add any extra time onto my amount of time in college. I love reading and I love writing papers. I feel cautious to change my major without a plan for what to do after graduation. My biggest fear is that I’ll graduate in something and not be able to find a job that pays more than I’m making now. I know the poverty line for a single person is around 12k but I have a lot of roommates in order to survive off of 20k so ideally I don’t want to have to work at a drugstore for the rest of my life.
    I met with the chair of the english department yesterday and while the class descriptions looked overwhelming, it looked interesting too. I’m guessing it would feel less overwhelming once I started it and learned some stuff. (Anyone have any thoughts on that?) The chair said I can request my favorite english teacher as my advisor so that would be nice too.
    Does anyone have any advice or encouragement? 
    Thanks for reading this and thank you to everyone who replied to me in the past, I really appreciated everyone’s knowledge and encouragement. 

      1. valentine*

        a lot of people tell me that I could help people with my life experience.
        This is a narrative to push back on. People just want a silver lining or happy ending so they don’t feel responsible or helpless. It sounds more like motivational speaking, except you’d need to build something from your story. Just saying, “Look at me now!” isn’t useful. In reality, it would be the skills learned that help you help others, not the fact of your experience. Just because social workers helped you doesn’t mean you can pay that forward (and there’s no need, much less obligation, to do so) by becoming one, any more than a firefighter using their skills to help you means you should become a firefighter.

        Don’t go into social work or counseling unless you can really leave it at the office door. Because rehashing your trauma, especially since it won’t help every person, may be like when celebs write their memoirs and, rather than a catharsis, they’re steeped in the dust of experiences they’ve dug up.

        Think about how you want to feel at work and what would give you that for 40+ hours/week, then work backwards to what degree will get you there. @Karnythia/Mikki Kendall always suggests knocking out the basic requirements at a community college. That might give you more time to land on a major.

      2. Nurse*

        I dunno. I hated nursing school. I love being a nurse. It’s hard finding a job with an English degree

        1. English Fan*

          Myth! I am an English major, and I have never had trouble getting jobs. The world needs great communicators—and our cover letter skills are on another level!

          1. RR*

            @ English Fan: this is so true! I work in an area not at all directly related to English, and have hired other English majors (and anthropology majors and so on).
            @Misty: I’d go with English. Or any other Liberal Arts major that sounds appealing. Don’t think of college as a vocational school, but as an opportunity to hone your critical thinking and communication skills. These are skills that will serve you well in whatever career (or careers) you end up pursuing. Best of luck to you!

    2. Annony*

      First, if you are finding social work depressing already, it probably won’t get better. Social work has a high burn out rate and there is definitely a risk that it will hit too close to home for you. I would suggest talking to a therapist about this and working with them to figure out whether this would be good for your mental health.

      As for changing majors, I think you might be going about this backwards. Instead of picking a major and then figuring out a career, try to think of a career you want and then figure out a major that will help you achieve the career. If you are concerned about job prospects, English may not be the way to go. You could always minor in it and take the fun classes.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        All of this, especially the part about social work not being the ideal career choice for someone with past trauma who seems to be still affected by it. Plus, OP finds the classes boring, which doesn’t help inspire engagement – that’s needed to do well in anything in life.

        I also agree that OP should be thinking about what careers she’d like to have first and then work backwards to figure out what kind of degree she’d need to make that happen. So OP, you may like reading and writing papers, but a lot of former English majors end up being teachers or working in things like marketing, advertising, sales (on proposal teams) – you may find that you have no interest in standing in front of a class everyday talking about subject-verb agreement or being remotely involved in a for-profit business doing campaigns or managing proposals.

        So before you change direction, go back to the drawing board and figure out exactly what you see yourself doing in the future. Then talk to your academic advisor for guidance on how to get there. If you do decide that you ultimately want the BA in English, then make sure you and your advisor come up with a solid plan of action for once you graduate. You need to know what type of company or non-profit organization you’d like to work for, what tasks you’d like to be doing day-to-day, and that should help you narrow down a career field and job function you’d like to perform. Also make sure you get internships in whatever field you choose for experience before graduating – that will help you secure your first professional position.

        Good luck!

        1. OhNo*

          Agree with all of this. I work closely with masters students in both social work and psychology programs, and both careers are known for their high burnout rates. If you already don’t like the coursework then chances are good you won’t like the actual work, either.

          (One exception: I’ve seen some students who are just really into people, as opposed to paperwork, succeed in the job despite not liking the academic classes. It doesn’t sound like that’s your biggest complaint, though.)

          Starting with the career you want and working backwards is absolutely the way to go. If all you need is to be able to check the ‘I have a degree’ box, then go for the English major! Might as well enjoy the rest of your undergrad education! But if you have a specific career in mind, see if there’s an educational path that can help. You may not need to pay for a master’s if you get the right bachelor degree to start with.

      2. TheAssistant*

        I agree with this, and at a minimum, do not pursue a Master’s in Social Work if you are already bored and depressed by the material. (I’m not a social worker, I just don’t think this sounds like success).

        Right now, I’m trying to choose between a few different routes for grad programs by targeting a specific job title, searching everyone on LinkedIn with that job title, and trying to figure out their paths to the job title. I think you need to do somewhat of the same thing. Target a job, understand what’s needed to get that job, work backwards to a good entry-level position after school, and choose a major accordingly.

        Outside of career-targeted degrees (social work, med, law, etc.), the difference between majors is a little moot. Unless I was hiring specifically for a psychologist or an English professor, I wouldn’t care, as a hiring manager, if a job candidate had a degree in psych or English. I probably wouldn’t even care about having the degree, tbh, but that’s me. I care if you can do the job, that you’ve thought about how this job fits into your overall plan, that you are cool with the pay (I work in nonprofits), and that you bring a good combination of both current skill and ability to learn.

        There are so many jobs outside of social work specifically that you can use your background and skills to contribute to. You can work at a government agency providing benefits! You can fundraise for a nonprofit focusing on a cause that you care about! You can be a program manager helping at-risk youth! You can become a lawyer! You can also choose that you would like to be financially comfortable and do none of those things, and that’s absolutely valid! But don’t do social work if you already don’t like it. You’ll end up five years out of school, totally burned out, not making much more than you make now, and stuck trying to find a new career.

      3. Emmie*

        I understanding feeling guilty about not helping people in a similar situation. Helping and supporting people comes in all different forms. It doesn’t have to be your full-time job. It can involve mentoring a few kids, or volunteering, or nothing at all. It can also involve just pursing something that makes you happy, and making your life better. I encourage you to find another path for your full-time job. Something that allows you to distance yourself, and have a healthy escape from trauma.

        It sounds like you’re undecided for your degree. I recommend adding a major or minor that has a more direct path to a career. Majors like English, Communications, and other passion areas may provide some passion now, but will they lead to positions in your area? Like you, I worked in a lower level position in my field. Having an applicable degree, and / or work experience in the field – like an internship – could strengthen your applications for other jobs. I realize it may not be possible given how much you’re working.
        I had the same concern too.

        I think we ask too much from our studies. We ask them to be engaging, exciting, and fun. Sometimes the study of something isn’t as rewarding as the work of that something. I ended up finding my undergrad passion in business, though others may find it in more technical careers (like HVAC, plumbing, electricians..) or college-directed careers (marketing, PR, etc…) You may not know the area you’re interested in now, and that’s okay. Think about what kinds of jobs are in your area, what you’d like to do, and either add a major or minor in that field. Good luck! And stop putting so much pressure on yourself to figure it all out. Many of us have multiple jobs throughout our careers. The key is preparing yourself for changes in the job market. And, if you know it, finding something you’d enjoy doing – and a lot of people figure that out after earning their degree, working a few jobs, and working with a few bosses.

    3. University Minion*

      Finish the degree in social work. That doesn’t mean you have to become a social worker. It does mean that you can check the “Do you have a degree?” box on those awful job application websites and your application won’t be screened out on what is, TBH, usually a bs requirement.

      If you want to continue your education from there, by all means, do so. In fact, since you’re not sure what you want to do, I recommend focusing your job search on staff jobs at your university. You’ll most likely get free tuition, and an entry level full time job at a state university will pay at least what you make now, and probably with better benefits. When I made the transition from retail/blue collar work to higher ed, I fashioned a cover letter, using AAM’s advice, that made a case that I’m “competent at being competent”. I may not have specific skills, but I am damn good at figuring stuff out. That’s a skill that college doesn’t prepare you for and is in short supply.

      Best of luck – you sound really smart and driven.

      1. Annony*

        I think if the goal is just to check the degree box it might be better to switch to Psych or English since it won’t add any time to the degree. Don’t keep studying something you find boring and depressing!

        1. University Minion*

          Here’s my line of thinking for staying the course:
          I don’t trust ANYTHING a university advisor says about time to finish. (Source, I work at an R1). Maybe your uni has better advisors. I hope so.
          Your social work department is a known-known at this point and time to finish is the priority. Unless you can confirm that you already have all the pre-reqs needed to seamlessly transfer into your new major, take any advice about being able to finish in the same amount of time with a large grain of salt (ie, it may be mathematically possible if you take 18 hours every semester and 12 each summer, but that doesn’t translate into do-able).

          1. Katniss Evergreen*

            Ugh unfortunately, you can’t always trust your advisors’ word on time-to-finish. I had an honors undergrad advisor tell me my choices were doable when I picked up a minor on top of the honors program I was doing and my pre-professional health coursework (think lots of science labs). Except that once I did the math when trying to plan out the courses I loved that fit the requirements, I’d have to do 18-20 credit hour semesters for it to be “doable” in the 4 total years I planned to be there. I ended up dropping the honors program, because the minor was more interesting – and had someone send me a survey asking why after that, to which I could only facepalm.

          2. Annony*

            I do agree about not taking the advisors word for it. Check what the actual requirements are for the degree, which ones you have already done and how often the others are offered. However, in my experience switching after sophomore year to a related degree (like social work to psych) usually has enough overlap in the prerequisites that it will be relatively seamless. Switching to something completely different like engineering would likely be much harder.

            1. Misty*

              I just wanted to say that I’ve done this. I think it’s smart to do your own research and I appreciate you pointing that out as advice. I’ve compared the courses I’ve taken and are currently taking to all the courses I would need to graduate in the following: english, social work, finance, and psychology. I also met with the departments chairs in all of these departments and compared what they said to my research.

              For Psych I only need two more semesters if I took a class this summer. For English and Social work I need two more full years if I take 16 credits a semester. For Finance I needed over two years.

              If I just wanted to graduate to get a degree, the fastest one would be psychology but I’m not sure the smartest thing to do is to just go as fast as possible.

              1. AccountantWendy*

                If you’re really not sure what you want to do, get the Finance degree because there are job opportunities galore. My BA is in English from an expensive private school and I ended up drifting for 10 years before going back to community college and getting an Associates in Accounting. I LOVE being an accountant but even if you don’t, the pay is good and you can work while figuring out what you really want to do….which can take a long time.
                A friend from my graduating class, English major, works as a ballroom dance teacher.
                My spouse, English major, works in shipping and receiving.
                I know only a handful of English majors that went on to use their degrees directly in some sort of teaching/writing/literary way. Most ended up in other fields. So unless you very much have a plan saying “These are the jobs I want and they require a degree in English”, I’d stake your money on finance any day.

                2. Elizabeth West*

                  A zillion times this. I have degrees in English and Criminal Justice. In general, they haven’t been useful for anything because tons of writing jobs want you to have subject matter expertise in whatever. If you wanted to double major in English and Finance, have a career in finance, and then write about those topics, that could get you somewhere.

                  You can’t do anything in psychology with just a bachelor’s degree anyway. You’d need a master’s and either a Psy.D or a Ph.D to be a clinician.

                3. Annony*

                  I would also add that it might be helpful to compare “time left in school to be able to get a job” instead of “time to degree”. It sounds like you already planned on 3 more years in school since you would need a masters. You can probably get a better paying job with a BA in finance than you can with a masters in social work. So overall, if you would be happy with they type of job you can get with a finance degree, you aren’t really extending your schooling, just switching tracks.

                4. Sandman*

                  I agree with this. It also might be worth asking if there were general ed classes you really enjoyed but didn’t think much about because you were focused on being a social worker. With 20 years of hindsight, I’m remembering classes I liked a lot but dismissed because “that’s not my thing” – and now I’m taking classes again in a similar field. That sort of thing can just be information to help you suss out what sorts of things you really would like doing a lot.

              2. AnotherAlison*

                This is something I stumbled onto recently, and it might be a good read for you. Look for the Psychology Today article, “Engineering—The Smart Career Choice for People Who Love Psychology” from 2012.

                I didn’t see anything in your posts that makes me think you might consider engineering, but the article does give some cold hard facts about career opportunities in psychology.

                FWIW, it has always baffled me that many people who pull themselves out of tough upbringings pursue social work rather than work that pays well, so I think you’re on track with considering other options.

                (Another FWIW, my cousin’s daughter recently finished an undergrad in sociology and has a job that is apparently enough to buy a house and support two son’s as a single mom. She does B2B customer service, but it’s a wfh online job and sounds pretty nice for her.)

              3. Roy G. Biv*

                I also greatly enjoyed reading and writing when in college, while in pursuit of my English BA, and did not expect to use it in my everyday job. As in, I was not going to be editor-in-chief of a notable journal. And then I did a lot of proof reading at my first three jobs, so it was useful after all. “Here, Roy, you’re the English major. Is this verb tense correct?”

                I also have a Business degree, and the English degree got lots of side eye back in the day. Many interviews included the question, “Well, then why aren’t you teaching?” Because I don’t want to teach, which is why it’s not an education degree. I wanted to work in advertising & marketing, and I did for quite a few years. Now I work in sales, and full disclosure – sales is SO MUCH more rewarding! But I would still pursue the English degree, if I had a chance to do it again.

              4. RC Rascal*

                What about completing the Social Work degree & minoring in Finance? Finance will open doors. You might consider a Finance degree w a SW minor.

                There are a lot of relationship management jobs in business. Similar skills to SW but much less emotionally taxing.

                1. Jaydee*

                  On the flip side, there is always a need for people in the social service world who understand money and math. How cool would it be for a social service agency or counseling practice to have a finance person or fundraising professional who really understands what the social workers employed there do? (very cool) Another option would be getting into the financial side of counseling. Help people learn money management skills. Work for an agency that serves as representative payee for people who can’t manage their own Social Security benefits. Work at a small/local bank or credit union and start a micro-loan program or do outreach to communities of people that are “unbanked” or “underbanked.” Go into forensic accounting and help law enforcement catch and prosecute scammers and abusers who take money from elderly and vulnerable people.

                  Or…don’t. Get a degree in something you enjoy studying that will let you get a job you like that pays well enough for whatever your desired standard of living is. And find ways that are meaningful to you (not to someone else, but to YOU) to give back to the world. That could be through work or outside of work. And it could be specifically working with people who have experienced trauma similar to what you experienced. Or it could be something entirely different (art or music, politics, fostering litters of orphaned kittens, whatever).

                  But if you become a forensic accountant who fosters kittens, let me know because that sounds pretty awesome.

          3. ampersand*

            Counterpoint to this: If OP is already burnt out on social work, being successful at the required internship might be really tough. I think it’s worthwhile to consider if she’ll be able to provide good (or even good enough) service to the clients she’ll undoubtedly have during that time, if her heart isn’t in it.

            I do agree with you about the known-known and time to finish a degree, though. Very valid points.

      2. Aquawoman*

        I like the way you phrased that (competent at being competent). Can you bottle that? I could use it for one of my reports.

    4. Blueberry*

      I’m not sure what I’d do in your position, but your feeling of obligation to “redeem” what happened to you in childhood really resonated with me — for other reasons, I used to feel that way too. I agree with you that you’re not obligated to do so, and that there are other ways to help than a career in social work. Your life is, after all, yours, and you have every right to enjoy it. If you won’t at all enjoy a career in social work you’re not obligated to it.

      *cheers you on*

    5. JokeyJules*

      i’ve been in your shoes. What helped me was prioritizing my fears. Am i more afraid of not finding a job or only finding a job that will keep me in low income for most of my life unless i continue education? Do I need to feel extremely passionate about the job i have or will i find joy in other places? What roads will these different degrees open up for me career-wise?

      I have a psych degree, and my work is mostly in operations/coordinating (i.e. nothing to do with my courses). Think about what major will help guide you towards work you’d like to do, and go from there.

      Talk with your advisor or a career advisor at your university!

      1. De Minimis*

        Something to think about for sure. I had an English undergrad and ended up having to go to grad school in a different field in order to start a professional career. I’m not saying don’t do it, but have a plan for it.

        I’ve heard a lot about the high burnout rate in social work, though I also have worked with people who worked to get their license requirements and then moved into more administrative type positions where they don’t have as much client contact.

    7. Rainbow Dash*

      It sounds like you’ve learned that a degree in social work isn’t for you. That’s an awesome thing to learn at a young age. I have a master’s in counseling and I’ve burned out listening to other people’s issues. Not everybody can look at the void and not blink, or take a sip from a gushing hose. However, using that degree, I’d tell you to go to the career center and take attitude testing to see what things you’d be interested in. You have a vague idea of what you’d be good at, but career testing would help you narrow it down. Business is a lot of reading and writing papers.

    8. Daisy-dog*

      I think you’re getting too hung up on your graduation date. Though it probably is a good idea to change your major soon because it sounds like you are genuinely unhappy in the BSW program. Does your school offer some kind of multi-degree? Mine offered a University Studies degree which involved getting 3 minors. Several of my friends were happy with that and are now in jobs they enjoy.

      I love my Psych degree, but it’s didn’t do much for my professional career. I’m sorry you’re feeling so much pressure to decide. Your degree really won’t define you for the rest of your life, so it’s probably best to just pick something you enjoy.

    9. Ama*

      I have a couple of family members who do social work — it seems like from talking to them that if you don’t really have a passion for the work you can burn out really quickly. I also remember one cousin talking about her professors doing a hard sell on her — I think because so few people go into social work the people in the field do have a tendency to really work hard to try to keep people in the major so keep that in mind.

      As an English major myself, English is a great major for people who aren’t entirely sure what they want to do — especially if you already enjoy writing papers. The skills you learn as an English major can be applied to a ton of fields because almost every field needs people with strong communication skills. I initially thought about becoming a librarian, then I went to grad school for a Master’s in writing, then I had a long stint as a university administrator, and now I run a grant program for a medical research nonprofit.

    10. Purt's Peas*

      Career offices aren’t always…good, but I’d recommend meeting with your career office to talk about careers for an English major.

      I think that you shouldn’t pursue an education (including a master’s degree) in a subject that makes you actively miserable, since there’s a very high likelihood that the jobs available will also make you miserable.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        If you’re in the US, there are career centers all over the country partnering the Dept of Labor and local agencies. They are free and anyone who can work in the US can use their services. Just walk in and check it out.
        I am an Employment Counselor in a Career One-Stop (find yours by googling that term). I meet with new grads often — lots of folks get the diploma and then stare at the job market like a deer in the headlights. I love getting them early. And a pre-grad like you deciding on a degree path would be even better because there might be a course correction that’s easier for you to do now rather than later.

        The key thing we would do if I were meeting with you is to look at whatever work history you’ve got, ask you about the parts of work that you like and don’t like and the types of things you know how to do or would want to learn, and then name a few job titles that seem like pretty good fits. We’d find generic descriptions of those jobs on onetonline.org, and look for actual job postings for those positions. Then your homework would be to study the postings and study the company webpages (and do other research like looking up the linkedin profiles of people who do those jobs) and then see if you’d be happy doing the things that they’re describing. Then, a quick review of whether you’d qualify for those jobs, or what you need to get them.

        You can certainly (and SHOULD certainly) check in with your college career center, but going to the public resource means that you’ll be working with someone who is deeply involved with the current labor market for people of all levels of work. They’ll be able to connect some of the more generic dots right to the actual companies/agencies that are hiring.

        1. Misty*

          I’m going to look into that. I just googled it and found the website for my state. Thank you very much for the advice. I appreciate it.

    11. Bubbles*

      Just because you’ve been through a trauma and come out the other side with compassion doesn’t mean you should spend the rest of your life doing social work. You can still contribute in other ways.

      This is the benefit of General Education coursework and why students should be encouraged to take a year of GE before being allowed to declare a major! Embrace the chance to take a variety of coursework that would expose you to potential majors without damaging progress toward a degree.

      How would you feel about teaching? Or being a high school guidance counselor? In both capacities you would be serving a population that needs help. I work at a high school now and while I am an admin assistant, I spend a good part of my day with kids just listening to them. I am also on the front lines to see kids that are struggling with getting food, can’t afford basics, are having a crisis at home, etc., and I can alert the appropriate people on our campus to get the students some help. We have an office with counselors and case managers specifically for students and their families to get help with the most basic of resources. We connect them with government assistance and various programs, provide after school snacks, language assistance, etc.

      2. Sue*

        Good ideas.
        I have a friend who went through some childhood trauma and has become a high school counselor. She loves her job. It varies enough to avoid the social work burnout issue but has a huge component of helping those who need it. Her empathy is important but she also gets to problem solve on schedules, advise and help with college/career planning and be an ear with kids at a pivotal time.

        1. blackcat*

          I think it hugely depends on where. Guidance counselor burnout is common in places with very high loads (>500 students/1 counselor is common in some states) and/or very high needs populations.
          In the right school, it can be a good balance.

          1. Bubbles*

            My current site is approximately 4,000 students with 10-11 counselors. It’s ridiculous… but we only “lose” one counselor every 2-3 years, and in the last 5 years it’s been women who choose to stay home with their new babies, not burnout, so we’ve been exceptionally lucky. Because I get burned out just hearing about what some of these kids are going through.

        2. Jessica Fletcher*

          Just want to comment that if you do want to become a guidance counselor, you should do the BSW, and you would probably benefit greatly from the MSW, too. From someone who is a BSW and knows that social work is much more than therapy and CYF!

      3. Janet*

        I was going to suggest this as well. You said you wanted to be a social worker to help people, but social work isn’t the only way to accomplish that goal. You could study English and be a teacher or a counselor. Or you could write grants or be some kind of admin for a non profit. Even if your career goes down a different path you can do volunteer work in your free time.

        Also, I’m an engineer. I HATED my classes. I almost dropped out. But college is nothing like work and now I’m much happier

        1. ThatGirl*

          In some/many/all? states you need an education degree to be a teacher or a school counselor. But there are many things you can do with an English degree, for sure.

      4. Steve*

        Years ago someone had a really neat insight into how we can best help the world be a better place. We may want to push ourselves into working for a non-profit, or a job that helps others. Yet for some of us – especially those who do well at a job that pays well – maybe the best career path is to take on a job like programming or data analyst for a company that pays well, and then take a portion of that pay and donate it to your favourite charity.

        Is it better to work for a non-profit which helps people work through their trauma, or get a really good job so that you can donate enough money so that the charity can afford to pay a staff for an extra few hours a week to help people work through their trauma?

        1. Sunflower*

          I worked for a BigLaw firm and one of the associates disclosed to me that her husband and his friends were literary/art types and scoffed at her job for not contributing to the betterment of the world. Our firm was one of the leaders in Pro Bono work and I told her to remember that working for these clients allowed the firm to do the amount of Pro Bono work we did. We were able to provide legal help to so many who would not be able to afford it otherwise.

    12. blink14*

      I don’t see any problem with switching to English. I would do some research on the requirements for a master’s in social work – do you need a specific undergrad degree in social work? And/or can you pick up a minor? It’s possible the classes you’ve already taken are setting you up for a minor and you don’t realize it, you could minor in English or another humanities field. It would probably be helpful to meet with an advisor in your current department to discuss further options.

      Back when I was in college, I switched from psych/bio to history in my sophomore year. I fully wanted to go into being a psychiatrist, then thought social work, but realized both would burn me out very quickly from an emotional standpoint. At the university I went to, switching to social work also would’ve meant switching colleges internally, which made me very nervous that I would be locked into such a specific degree. I ended up with a somewhat unintended minor in women’s studies – it happened that a lot of the history classes I was interested in were cross categorized for a women’s studies degree.

      I’ve worked in property management and now work at a university, and I also have long done side jobs in the entertainment industry. My history degree set me up with strong research, writing, and organizational skills. If I were able to go back, I may have approached things differently (entertainment management was a passion but not really an option at my university, and frankly, probably wouldn’t have been a good degree with the economy crash coming just a year or so after my graduation), but overall, I’ve been in two very different industries based on a history degree.

    13. Kalico*

      It might help to look at your college degree as a holistic experience that is giving you skills that are useful in a variety of possible jobs, rather than as a qualification that will funnel you into a specific profession. In this sense, it doesn’t matter too much what your degree is in, ultimately – although the degree in social work might look better on paper and be more relevant to a broader array of jobs than a degree in psychology or English. In the meantime, take one of those English classes and see how it goes.

      1. WellRed*

        I’ll co-sign all of this. Don’t get tunneled into “The Degree” or one narrow idea of what a person with a certain degree can do. Social work is pretty broad. I think switching to English is fine, but please know that you will not get hired to “read and write papers.”
        What is it what you want to do for work? Then, map out a possible plan.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          but please know that you will not get hired to “read and write papers.”

          Not true if she ends up being a technical writer/editor. There are tons of those jobs in tech and medicine.

          1. Nesprin*

            Im in stem and 80% of my job is reading and writing papers. The language is a little different but good writing is invaluable.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            Yes, but nearly every single job listing for those roles wants subject matter expertise. They all say stuff like bachelor or master degree in bioscience, or whatever. Nobody wants you if you can write and edit but don’t know the subject, no matter how good you are at learning stuff.

            This is the barrier I’m running into right now.

            1. WellRed*

              Jinx posting! yes, this exactly. Lots of jobs require writing but need a different degree. I toyed with the idea of getting a master’s in nutrition writing, but realized I’d be better of getting a master’s in Nutrition (which is a totally different thing and not something I pursued).

            2. Diahann Carroll*

              I have a similar job to a tech writer and I work in software with zero tech experience prior to coming into this role – it can happen that if your writing/editing is strong enough, those so-called requirements can turn into nice-to-haves.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                That was the case with my last job, mostly because I aced the test edit. Unfortunately, other than that test, I have no clips from it because everything was proprietary. I can’t get past the gatekeepers. Plus I don’t know every content management system / style guide known to man. I wish more employers would realize that people can actually LEARN stuff. :P

                1. Diahann Carroll*

                  Right! No one, even people who have been doing this for years, knows everything and will need to have some sort of training to get up to speed with what an employer wants anyway. I was very fortunate that my current employer saw that my writing and editing skills were on point and realized that I don’t have to be an expert on every piece of software we sell – I just need to be able to take the technical speak and turn it into something easily digestible to people like me who don’t have that mind frame. And honestly, people who don’t know a ton about a subject can be excellent technical writers because they’re not so close to the subject that they can’t see the forest for the trees.

        2. Purple*

          I think WellRed hit on the point that made me want to reply to this comment, and now I can explain it a little better. When I read your post, although you maybe pay some lip service to future planning, a lot of your text is about fairly short term concerns. (Which is fine, I get that bills have to get paid next week and all, but you’re asking about a decision with long term effects) Wanting to quit SW because you don’t like the classes, and going into English because you would.

          Find the end of the path, then map it out. Realize the school portion is a means to an end. I mean…you could get an accounting degree and then help a non-profit maximize their $ to do good work. Or a Marketing degree and participate in a PR campaign to help people get services they need. All kinds of skills are needed to still do good work, and some of them may allow you to meet both your goal of having a little more to live on and help people.

          Going just on what you posted here, your vision right now is really narrow, and your time horizon too close.

          1. Misty*

            You may be right. I appreciate the insight.

            I have a very hard time picturing the future and I never expected to have the chance to go back to college. I will work on trying to think clearer about the future. I can’t see past tomorrow most days.

    14. Behth*

      In college you should either choose a major that allows you to explore and figure out what you want to do, or one that leads directly to the kind of job you already know you want. Don’t choose based on how enjoyable the coursework is, unless you can tell that it will prepare you to do more of the same enjoyable work in a field where you can find employment.

      If you don’t want to have a career in social work, absolutely don’t keep that as your major. But do you want to have a career in an English-related field, either? What would that look like for you? I majored in what my school called “professional writing,” which is a more practical treatment of writing, editing, and analysis. I found it both enjoyable and fulfilling, both in class and in the writing job I have now. Maybe your school has something like that, a program that prepares you for after-college work in the field you enjoy studying?

      If English or Phycology is your passion, by all means, go for it! But don’t look at college as a race to complete—I know you want a quick return on your investment, but you’ll either have to go back or spend a lot of time self-teaching if you don’t learn skills you plan to use in your career. Taking five or six or more years to graduate, while figuring out what you really want to do, is probably going to be better for you than studying something you don’t enjoy and graduating with the knowledge to do that one thing only.

      Also—lots of people study and begin working in one field, then find another passion later on and make a change. You don’t have to have it all figured out now! But don’t start a path you already know you’ll want to change.

      1. M_Lynn*

        On the same note of “don’t choose based on how enjoyable the coursework is”, don’t quit social work just because you hate the classes. I can’t tell if when you say the material is too depressing means that you dislike the content in your classes or the whole intense focus on all the ways people struggle to survive in our society. Examining all the ways people struggle through poverty, addiction, or whatever is really hard to study on a daily basis. However, doing the work of helping people overcome traumatic experiences could still be something you enjoy once you’re in the job as a social worker and make it through the degree program. Perhaps think about that a lot more!

        And lots of others have said here, social work is an incredibly valuable degree! You could try out being a social worker, and maybe find that you don’t love it. Then move to working for your state government managing grants that support the work on the ground. Or get into philanthropy, or communications for nonprofits, etc. Your experience knowing how systems work and how people can be supported through trauma could also make you a fantastic journalist.

        For context, I have a degree in humanities that gave me no demonstrable skills, and it was rough for me to graduate and have the same “what do I do with my career?” crisis then. Social work is a respected skillset, and one easily transferable (and widely accepted as transferable!). I think it would open more doors than an English degree.

        That being said, if this is coming from your internal reactions to being forced to do a service career following your own childhood, PAY ATTENTION TO THOSE FEELINGS. Examine them more.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Your last paragraph is exactly what OP is saying – the classes are becoming depressing to her because they’re opening up old wounds from her own past (she said she’s having no trouble doing the actual work). Therefore, since she clearly is still affected by her own trauma, she’s probably right that she needs to find a new major and career path – she will not be effective in a social work role when she herself is burned out and re-traumatized. Plus, the pay is lousy and she’s already worried about not making enough to have made the investment in a degree worth it. This just doesn’t sound like the right fit for her at all, though I’m sure her prior social workers were well meaning when they told her to consider this as a career choice due to her upbringing.

          1. Misty*

            Yes, I appreciate everyone’s advice but you hit it on the head. The course work is easy but it is too close to my childhood. I already know a lot about poverty, abuse, the foster car system, etc. I do not want to learn about it or work in it at this point.

            I respect and am thankful for all the social workers who helped me but I do not think I want to be one of them in the future.

            Also I should have said in my first post that I have my own therapist that I see twice a week and I have support.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              I’m glad to hear this – please continue to take care of yourself guilt-free. Mental health is so important.

    15. chronicallyIllin*

      I think it sounds like social work isn’t for you. They’re right that there are tons of different social work jobs– but it sounds like you find that sort of thinking about the world (that social work almost necessitates) depressing. Plenty of social workers go through school and almost find the stuff you call “heavy” invigorating or energizing. They see what’s wrong and feel motivated and able to do work against that. Even then, many of them get burned out by working in the field for many years and have to leave after 10, 15, 20 years. I think if you’re already exhausted by it, doing the actual work will only get worse for you.

      You say you feel like you’re somehow trying to make the bad stuff that happened to you “mean something”. I think that’s probably a very good insight and one you should probably trust. It’s an issue a LOT of people have, and one that’s pushed onto a lot of people. (I’ve had so many people try to push this on me, for example) I’m happy to let what happened to me be meaningless suffering that just happened. It doesn’t have to be retroactively justified. I don’t have to give credit for any of my accomplishments to people or systems who have hurt me.

      I also think the insight that enjoying psych classes != enjoying psych work is a good one, which I’ve seen psych majors fail to see for themselves as well.

      I’m not sure about WHAT specific major you should go for. I know some people who have had significant issues trying to find jobs with English majors, but I bet there’s lots of people who haven’t had that issue. Can someone with more knowledge about successful English majors answer here with what is necessary to do well and what jobs can come from that?

      I recommend you think hard about what you do and don’t like about your current job, previous jobs, and schoolwork. Do you like working with people and helping them get things they need? Do you enjoy figuring out the right amount of stuff to order? Do you like working to plan the schedule and figure out what the most efficient scheduling is? Do you like researching and putting together papers of information on a given topic? Do you like presenting or giving speeches?

      Hopefully if you can come up with some things you like/hate and hopefully some people here can talk about jobs they know that involve those sort of tasks?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I’m happy to let what happened to me be meaningless suffering that just happened. It doesn’t have to be retroactively justified. I don’t have to give credit for any of my accomplishments to people or systems who have hurt me.

        THIS. My (bad) past doesn’t define my present at all. Shit happened, and I got therapy and moved on.

      2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        As regards thinking ahead to possible futures & what you enjoy, etc, couple of book recommendations:
        Is Your Genius At Work – Dick Richards
        I Could Do Anything If I Only Knew What It Was – Barbara Sher

    16. Jimming*

      You have some great advice so far! I have a degree in psych (both bachelors and masters) and I burned out of the counseling field. If you finish with a psychology degree a lot of those skills are transferrable to many positions – communicating, working with others, etc. Same with English if you’ll go into a career where you do any writing (which most jobs require writing emails at a minimum). Definitely continue to explore career paths! But if you’re looking to finish your degree quickly, psych or English would be good options. You can always go back to school for a masters degree later on if you decide you want to study another area.

    17. Amy Sly*

      My dad (who shifted careers drastically several times and went back to college when I was in elementary school) laid it out like this. There are two kinds of college degrees: job training and ticket punching. The former are things like social work, teaching, accountancy, engineering, medicine, etc. The latter are the degrees you get so the doormen punch your ticket. They have nothing to do with the kind of job you will actually do; they just demonstrate that you were willing to put forth the effort to get a degree and therefore are reasonably intelligent and hardworking. I have two of these degrees. (Well, three if you count the law degree I’m using in a “JD preferred but not required” position.) They’re better than not having them, but what my dad, who still doesn’t have his BA, didn’t realize is that once you get past the “bachelor degree required” doorman, there are still plenty more between you and the job.

      My suggestion would be to inventory your strengths and weakness, try to imagine your work/lifestyle goals, and research what kind of work might allow you to obtain a position that plays to your strengths, minimizes your weakness, and provides for the lifestyle you want. If you’re naturally an empathic person who has a knack for getting people to get along but just don’t want to do therapy, you could look into things like legal arbitration, HR, or procurement. If the idea of research and writing appeals, technical writing might be a good fit; there are never enough people who can turn technobabble into English.

      Whatever degree you decide to go for, I highly recommend taking at least one business class as an elective. Taxation, business structures, and basic economic theory are all important concepts for your personal life, but also they will give you context for the things you will have to learn in any job.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        My suggestion would be to inventory your strengths and weakness, try to imagine your work/lifestyle goals, and research what kind of work might allow you to obtain a position that plays to your strengths, minimizes your weakness, and provides for the lifestyle you want.

        This suggestion is the truth – this is how I job search.

      2. One of Mabel's women*

        There’s been a lot of attention lately about whether “liberal arts” degrees and colleges which specialize in them are useful in an increasingly technological world. All I can add is my life experience with a liberal arts degree.
        I was a college student in the early ’70s an majored in history at a state university as a planned path to an M.S. in library science. You get to read and write a lot when you study history. You develop skills in analyzing information and then communicating your thoughts and conclusions coherently in class discussions, papers both long and short, and on the spot exam answers. I also took political science classes including ones on basic quantitative analysis of data and polling. Watergate dominated the news and a class on the presidency, led by a former presidential aide and speechwriter, opened my eyes at how that office works in our democracy. I took the basic course in macroeconomics; I did not like it much (bad instructor) but it’s been the foundation of my understanding how economic systems work. I took a lot of French language and literature. Learning how another language works and expressing oneself in it, oddly enough, led me to see the technological revolution into this information age as another language with its own vocabulary and syntax to learn in order to express myself. When I needed an elective on short notice I fell into a course on food and cooking, perhaps this single most useful college course I took. The music appreciation course that fulfilled an arts requirement has turned into a lifelong love of classical music and choral singing.
        When I graduated, I took a job (to pay for my wedding) writing group insurance policies with a rapidly expanding company that hired a lot of newly-graduated people. With the exception of one nepotism hire (who did not do well!) we had all majored in subjects that were heavy in reading, writing, and analysis. The company trained us in the new language of insurance , a skill which was the foundation for the rest of my career which ended up in HR, using those communication and analysis skills back up by my natural empathy. Though I did not finish, I started grad school as originally planned and courses in reference methods and materials and legal research honed my innate ability to find info in books or on-line.
        Now retired, I find all of that historical context and political science learning shapes the way I view the current conduct of our government on national state and local levels. I am able to understand and manage my financial resources with the guidance of an experienced investment advisor. I am engaged in some historical research about a family member (with the possibility of turning it into a book) and have done a bit of genealogical work.Though out of practice, I can still understand and speak some French. I volunteer as a board member of an arts non-profit planning events, analyzing budgets and spending, writing publicity materials and info for grant applications, and generally promoting the organization.
        I credit my life -how I understand the world inside and outside of me- and my life’s work, on a quality liberal arts education. I recommend it.

    18. peach*

      Agree with others that if you’re not feeling social work right now, there’s not a huge reason to stick with it, since it’s a high burnout field with low pay.

      Does your university have a marketing major/minor? If you like reading and writing, you may like marketing, which is a little bit more, well, marketable than an English degree, so might open up more job options after you graduate. If you really want to stick with English, adding in a marketing minor might make sense.

      Also, don’t let the fact that course descriptions sound overwhelming deter you. Course descriptions are often written to sound pretty jargony. But once you get in there and start learning/doing the thing, you find that it’s not as overwhelming as it sounded (or, at least that was my experience when majoring in philosophy).

    19. Viette*

      Your experience right now is so, so common in people going to college. Do what seems like the most productive and has a job plan after it, but I hate it? Or do what I enjoy the most but has no job plan after it? Social work sounds very fraught for you; you don’t like the classes and your motivations are very personal, which isn’t always bad but it can make you feel like you have failed *as a person* if you don’t achieve what you thought you would.

      “My biggest fear is that I’ll graduate in something and not be able to find a job that pays more than I’m making now.” I don’t want to play up stereotypes, but the cold reality is that an English major is not necessarily going to get you new job opportunities. The English majors I know who are successful mostly either toiled long and hard (10+ years) to make it in a field like writing or journalism, or they ended up doing something pretty unrelated.

      How is this advice? Okay, okay. So, my advice is two-fold:
      1. Get in touch with alumni from your school have English majors and who live in the area where you want to live. What are they up to? What do they do for a living? This is half to reassure you that you can get a job with an English major and half to suggest to you some career paths.
      2. Talk to friends (and family if that’s an option) about what their friends/relatives do for a living. You know what your friends do for work, but what does your co-worker’s cousin do? What education do they have? I found that I really just didn’t even *know* what jobs existed that could be done by me, and this helped a lot. Career counselors are often focused on big fancy career ideas, but you want to know what someone in your socioeconomic group actually does. Traveling drug rep? Cobbler? Quality control for a dump truck company? I think that may help you see what people can do with various degrees. It’s all over the place!

      And good luck!!

      1. chronicallyIllin*

        +1 on asking about what people around your social network do for a living and what their jobs entail.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        The English majors I know who are successful mostly either toiled long and hard (10+ years) to make it in a field like writing or journalism, or they ended up doing something pretty unrelated.

        This harsh reality cannot be stated enough. I’m not an English major (I majored in journalism so…close enough), but I knew I wanted to work in either communications or marketing after school because I loved to write and edit other people’s work – it took me EIGHT YEARS to land a communications/marketing-adjacent role. Before that, I bounced around in various job functions across multiple industries. I’m doing very well for myself financially now (I made $75k last year and I’m on track to make $80k this year with my quarterly bonuses factored in), but the first eight years of my professional life was a struggle. The first four saw me making only slightly above poverty wages – and this on top of having to pay back loans (good on you, OP, for not taking any out – don’t. Ever). Most of the people I graduated with had similar trajectories.

        1. RC Rascal*

          Another undergraduate communications major. I graduated and realized I couldn’t take the poverty associated with pursuing careers in communications. So I went into sales instead.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            I hear you on that. If I had had the ability to sell anything, I would have gone that route too – a former coworker of mine made nearly $100k in sales within the first couple years of her doing it and she was able to pay off all her school loans in less than five years. That would have been a dream *sigh*. (Oddly enough, I’m apart of the sales division at my current company creating their content, lol).

            1. RC Rascal*

              I worked commissioned retail in school, so that helped. Also, I did a major related internship at the United Way. I went to a small school & while internship duties weren’t related, UW is a giant national brand name & well respected. Having that at the top of my resume helped get interviews.

              1. Diahann Carroll*

                That was smart. I interned at a literary magazine that no one reads and my city’s convention and visitor’s bureau – that (not shockingly) didn’t seem to help at all when I began post-grad job searching, lol.

                1. RC Rascal*

                  It was inadvertent. I knew I wasn’t going to stay in the area I was going to school: a rural area halfway across the country. Our Career Services wasn’t that great & most internship opportunities were local companies. The United Way was literally the only place I had ever heard of. So I went for that internship & got it.

                  UW does lots of work w major corporations. That name on my resume helped me get into a brand name Fortune organization.

    20. Jules the 3rd*

      I strongly recommend you look at other majors, now, but keep in mind: you’ll be learning all your life and you’ll probably have 2 – 3 different careers. To dig more into this career period, go to your college career counselors and talk about options. Maybe see if there’s aptitude tests you could take.

      There are lots and lots of ways to help people, social work is not the only option. As a matter of fact, there’s ways to turn most degrees into ‘helping people’. I have a business degree, focus on Supply Chain, and work to support computer recycling. Some of my friends are chemists and biologists working for the EPA. I know non-profit accountants, public works engineers, and a ton of software engineers working on social issues.

      Just a suggestion, business is a good ‘general’ degree that lets you pivot into many different roles, and there’s a lot of sub-categories for people with different interests / skills. Another option might be a health care industry (eg, pharmacy), as that will be a good mix of helping others / making enough $$ to live on, for a long time to come.

    21. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Just a thought — Psychology and English are both applicable for sales & marketing & advertising as well as management & documentation.

    22. Unladen European Swallow*

      If you haven’t already, you really need to think about internships while you’re completing your BA degree. I know you said that you’re a middle manager at a drug store, so it’s unclear if you have the time/capacity to do an internship on top of that, but having an internship in different types of fields or organization can be your foot in the door for a job post-graduation, in spite of whatever your major is. I know of many people who obtained jobs in fields seemingly very different from their majors because an internship demonstrated that they had actual experience with that type of specific work, regardless of their coursework. A bonus is that internships can help you identify the type of work you do and do not enjoy.

      Otherwise, I agree with many others to not complete the social work major if the courseswork is making you unhappy. Go to your career center, ask to speak with a counselor for an appointment about internships and post-graduation plans. Alternatively, have a conversation with your favorite English prof and ask what her past students are doing now. I’m sure there will be former students who have kept in touch. This might help you understand the range of work that English majors do “out in the real world.”

      1. chronicallyIllin*

        I don’t know how this would play with keeping a store management position to come back to, but there are paid internships in a number of fields.
        Software engineering is one I know about, and my hourly pay as a software intern was equivalent to 40k a year, if I had been doing 40hrs a week year-round. I had a friend who managed to get a paid graphic design internship, although I don’t know much about the field so I’m unsure how common that is.
        Talk to professors in the majors you’re interested in and ask about what internships exist around you. My professor was able to help me find an out-of-town summer internship that provided housing so I was able to afford it.

    23. Michelle*

      I so rarely recommend this, because the field is somewhat oversaturated, but if you graduate with a bachelors (in anything, though I’m commenting because of your interest in social work and English degrees), you might consider library school instead of a MSW. There are many library roles, especially in public libraries, that benefit from a social work background, because you are dealing with the public and all their problems, but the problems that they seek to solve in a library can be less depressing than other social work contexts and still give you a feeling of giving back to the community without taking on the weight of the world.

    24. Constance Lloyd*

      I have a BA in English (Started with Psych, changed my mind) and my current job is kind of an intersection between financial and social work. Very basic financials, nothing like accounting or auditing, and very precursory social work (if I see a red flag I pass it along to a team of actual social workers who do a more thorough investigation). Point being, a degree in English does not confine you to teaching or writing while slinging fries on the side. A degree in English teaches analytical and communication skills, which can be paired with your other interests and experience to bring you to a career you enjoy, with a lower risk of burnout.

      Or you can write or teach! Those are great things! But people on the outside seem to think those are the only options for English majors.

    25. Dasein9*

      Speaking as an overeducated academic: major in what interests you. You can expect to have 3-4 different careers in the course of your working life these days, and so thinking of your university major as tied to future jobs will not be as helpful as many suppose.

      What you do need is a mind that is eager and able to learn. The whole point of education is to teach ourselves to learn and draw connections between different types of ideas, events, policies, etc. We learn to do that when we are interested in what we are learning. Majoring in something that we dislike makes us avoid drawing connections in our “off hours,” whereas majoring in something we do like helps us learn to draw connections in everything we encounter. (Be one of those college students who are so excited to apply what they’re learning to everything they do!)

    26. 1qtkat*

      I think you should really think about what career you want after graduation whether that’s now or later. If you have transferrable skills (research, writing, analytical thinking, etc…) then I don’t think it matters what major you graduate with as long as you have those skills a future employee wants.

      I can understand being miserable with coursework and wanting to change. I was totally miserable with my biology major requirement classes my first two years, bad enough I too considered changing majors. But what kept me continuing the work was that I decided to declare a second major in environmental sciences which shared a lot of the biology requirements. Also the higher level biology courses in ecology related stuff made biology a bit more tolerable. It was tough and I had long days my last two years, but I was able to graduate in 4 years with two different hard science majors.

      Whatever you decide to do, know that you can sometimes find a purpose for your previous coursework. I know it’s tough to figure out what to do, but I’m sure you can make the right decision for you

    27. Mel 2*

      Keep in mind, most psychology-related work needs higher degrees. Otherwise, it’s a bit similar to English in that it can be useful to have as a degree. I studied psychology, and going in knew I was going to do graduate work. Most of my undergrad friends who did not go on to graduate work don’t work in the field of psychology. (I don’t either anymore, but am a statistician for the social sciences, based on my undergraduate stats work.)

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, there are not a lot of psych specific jobs you can get with just a bachelors (my husband is a therapist, with an MA), but psych can be a good general degree.

    28. Double A*

      I was an English major because I love reading and writing, and I loved being an English major! I don’t regret that degree for a second. English is a very flexible degree that will keep a lot of options open for you — you aren’t limiting yourself to “English related” jobs. Good writers and critical thinkers are needed in all sorts of fields.

      But my plan way to go into politics. My plan was I was going to do the fun stuff for my classes, and the career stuff as extracurriculars, and that was what I did — I was involved in student government and activist groups, interned for a local representative, etc. It was a great plan because I fully took advantage of the academic, social, and networking aspects of college. Nowadays people only focus on the job-preparation of college, but college is better if you take advantage of the holistic benefits it provides.

      I did start the politics path after college and then found it wasn’t for me. I ended up going back for my Masters in teaching (English), and added a Special Ed endorsement, partly because I was interested and partly because it was the depths of the Great Recession and that was the only type of teaching job you could get. In my teaching jobs I have always worked with at risk or special needs kids, and have burned out and also come back. I’ve taught in a juvenile hall and LOVED it. Just in general my English degree has been very flexible and allowed me to pursue interesting and sometimes surprising paths.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        Had a manager at a corporation for a couple of years with a journalism degree. He went back and got an MBA later. So you can do whatever you want with your degree, it’s really work experience and networking that get you jobs. Think about the kind of work you might want to do.

        I started as an international business major, then switched to marketing because it required less math. I don’t do anything specifically in marketing, but it did at least get me office jobs that paid somewhat decently.

    29. ampersand*

      I think you should get out of social work if you already don’t like it and are having reservations. It is true that your internship is much different than your classwork and that you’ll have a different experience in an internship vs. learning in a classroom setting, but it sounds like your time, money, and energy could be better invested in a different degree plan. I was also in social work–I started an MSW program that I didn’t finish, because I thought social work was for me and turns out it wasn’t. I actually liked the classwork and then wanted to run and hide when it came to my internship–direct service was not for me! Social work can be depressing, overwhelming, and burnout is extremely common, so I don’t think it’s odd at all that you’re feeling any of that already. This is a good thing to know about yourself. Also: if you get an English (or other) degree now and later change your mind and want to enter an MSW program, odds are good that you can get into one. My undergrad was in liberal arts–you don’t have to have a BSW to get an MSW.

    30. DarthVelma*

      I’m sorry to hear that you aren’t enjoying your social work classes, and if you feel like you’re burning out of school and need to make a change, I totally get that. (I may have had a small nervous breakdown during my sophomore year – which led from my change of major from music to social work.)

      Anyway, I thought my experience as a social work major whose job isn’t traditionally considered social work might be of interest. Even in school I focused on social work macro practice rather than micro practice with individuals. I also took some extra research methods and stats and now I do statistics and program analysis and evaluation for a state agency that works with kids 0-3 with disabilities. I still sort of consider what I do social work macro practice. But it’s very different from what most of my classmates ended up doing.

      If you’re interested in doing something that helps people but doesn’t involve working with clients, then ask around with your professors to see if anyone has a focus on macro practice or can point you to grads that are doing something off the beaten path with their degree.

      Like I said, just wanted to add my perspective. But you do what’s going to work for you and make you happy.

    31. Fikly*

      If you are in the US, a MSW is not going to get you a lot of prospects for a job as a therapist. You really need a doctorate (psyd or phd) in that field, especially if income is a concern. And be aware that getting that masters will not in any way count as credit toward that doctorate.

      My sister is going through this, and her masters in progress will not count as any credit toward a doctorate at the exact same school. It’s outrageous.

      1. chronicallyIllin*

        I don’t know if it’s changed, but it used to be that an MSW was the shortest path to being a therapist, and I know an LCSW who is a therapist because she’s an LCSW. There are significant jobs, if not very well paid ones.

        2. Fikly*

          Oh, yes, you can get jobs as a therapist without a doctorate. It’s just that your options are more limited, and you will be paid less.

          Given that the poster is concerned about income and the ability to get a job, it’s relevant. And also this information is not something that most masters programs will tell you, because it’s against their interests to tell you.

          (I’m not at all commenting on whether or not you can be a good therapist based on whatever degree, by the way. I don’t think any graduate degree is particularly related to your abilities as a therapist, myself.)

      2. ThatGirl*

        Uh, that’s not true, most clinicians are either MSW or Masters in counseling. It’s the license that matters, but you have to work your way up to that. My husband has a masters in counseling, so do all of his coworkers, his therapist, etc, etc. doctorates have their use but you don’t need one to be a therapist.

      3. Sunflower*

        This is completely and utterly untrue. If your goal is to be a therapist and that’s it, getting a doctorate would be a huge waste of time and money. I looked into many options and found getting a PhD was useless I wanted to do research. A PsyD was a waste of time when an MSW would do just as well. You absolutely do not need either of those things to get a job that pays well.

        As a consumer of therapy, I didn’t even bother looking at therapists with a PhD or PsyD because I was sure they charged more and knew I could find an MSW who did just as well. Cost per session is a huge factor when people chose a therapist so something to consider as well when you’re looking at the business side of therapy.

    32. Terra*

      A key question to ask yourself when thinking about a career (which you should do before thinking about your major) is, “What kind of problems do I want to solve?”

      In terms of practicality, changing from Social Work to English is not going to land you a better-paying job. One thing that comes to mind is Human Resources positions, which have a lot of growth potential and relatively inexpensive certifications. While your loyalty would be to a company and to finding the best business resolution for a company, you would also be balancing that with assisting employees and showing compassion and human interaction to them. There’s a real “human” aspect to that sort of work that’s similar to social work, but doesn’t require you to get into the dark underbelly of everyone’s problems.

        1. Misty*

          Huh that’s a good question. Do you mean what problems I want to solve in the world at large or in my own life?

          In my own life I would say the problem I would want to solve is not being able to find a job where I can make more money and also have more regular hours. Most of the people I know at work have hs education or less, and most of my friends with the exception of a couple work jobs were they have already graduated college but are making less than I am because they ended up working at a hotel or in retail. I really want to create a good future for myself and also anyone I may end up supporting in the future.

          1. Terra*

            I mean in terms of your career, and what you see on a day-to-day basis. Someone working retail or hotel management is solving inventory and customer-facing problems for a business. Everything from running out of scrambled eggs at the breakfast buffet, to telling someone with a language barrier that you don’t sell the thing they’re looking for, to figuring out how to set up and maintain an end cap on a store aisle, is a “problem.” Not necessarily in the negative sense (although it could be), but in the sense of a puzzle or issue that you are responsible for.

            It sounds like solving the extremely sad and/or stressful problems that come with social work are too draining for you, from the experience you have. Do you want to solve problems that are people-centered? Do you want to sit in a lab all day and do research? Do you want to code? Do you want to manage people as they solve problems? Do you want to solve problems for clients, or the government, or the private sector? In terms of environment, do you want to solve problems that require you to travel a lot, work in an office, work outside, etc.?

            Answering these questions for yourself will help you better decide. I wouldn’t pick a major based on a gut feeling that you might enjoy the course descriptions. I would also start answering the question of, “And then what?” When you have a degree in hand, and looking around to see what people actually do with the degrees you’re contemplating.

            1. Misty*

              I like customer service, I like interacting with people esp the regular customers, I like problem solving when it is done face to face with another person and helping customers find what they need. I like helping my coworkers figure out things. I will think more about the other questions you’ve stated.

              Thank you very much. I appreciate it a lot.

              2. RC Rascal*

                If you like CS your job already has you off on the first step.

                Right now I am reference for a former coworker. He started off as an assistant mgr for Walgreens. From there he became a CS Rep for big company, got promoted to CS Manager. Left us to go to a manufacturer that wanted him to do CS + some Supply Chain. Then they made him a Suppy Chain analyst.

                Now he’s applying to be a Supply Chain Manager. 12 years into his career & job pays I estimate $80k in the Midwest.

    33. Dysfunction Junction*

      Here’s my two cents as an English major: don’t do it. I’ve always been good at writing and it was assumed that’s obviously what I’d major in and I was fed a lot of bull about how ‘you can do anything with an English major’ that was basically BS unless you wanted to go into teaching. I graduated and found that most jobs that weren’t basic admin roles wanted degrees in business, HR, etc. I graduated in ’06 and my first job editing/writing company policies paid $26,000. I’m now working at a university and getting my MBA.

      As many others here stated, take a look at different careers and see what degrees they require and go from there. If you like writing, you might consider communications, marketing, and advertising.

      1. EnglishisLit*

        I’m shocked and sad to hear people bashing English degrees here! I have one and jumped right into Corporate Comms, where I write and edit and strategize all sorts of documents. I’m a VP earning very good money with just a Bachelors.

        It can be done, folks!

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          No one is bashing anything – we’re just stating the (very real) facts that people like you are an outlier. The vast majority of people who graduate with English, journalism, and general comms degrees end up in totally unrelated fields because they can’t find work in communications, marketing, PR, etc. This is especially true for those who just got the degree(s) because they didn’t know what they wanted to do with their lives in the first place, which seems to be one of OP’s issues.

          I agree that OP shouldn’t totally dismiss the option outright, though – it may take her a while depending on her region and the job prospects in said region to find something that requires her English degree (or it may not! She may end up being one of the lucky ones, but I wouldn’t count on that), but if she keeps working on her craft, it could happen for her. It took me eight years, I’ve now been in a content development/proposal (technical) writing role for two, and I’m so glad I didn’t give up because I love what I do.

          1. Terra*

            You also need a certain temperament and mindset to endure the “It MIGHT happen” aspect that comes with an English degree, which is something OP should factor in.

              1. Terra*

                There are certain jobs (nursing and welding come to mind off the top of my head) where there is no shortage of work. If you keep your nose clean, get decent grades, get your certifications, and don’t cause trouble (like getting fired for cause, and sometimes even then) you will have recruiters knocking down your door.

                There are other jobs and majors where the market is perpetually oversaturated, and/or you have to pound the pavement for employment. You have to scour job ads, perpetually “pitch” what you want to do and why your major fits the job, and fight off other people. A lot of creative jobs and majors are like this. What I mean is that you have to have the stamina, the grit, and the determination to succeed, and to possibly take jobs that aren’t exactly what you’re looking for or don’t exactly fit, if you want to major in English and take that degree elsewhere.

                My cousin has an Art History degree and is now dismayed to find that she essentially needs someone to die before a slot will open up as a museum curator, teacher, or professor. She keeps expanding her search. She started off wanting to work around our hometown, then in the state, then the tri-state area, and now she’s looking for what she can get.

                I personally never had that temperament. I’m not allergic to hard work, but I don’t like the thought of majoring in something and then having extremely nebulous prospects.

                1. Misty*

                  So do you think having an english degree is sort of like your cousin’s art history degree? (I may have gotten a little confused on this sentence: “What I mean is that you have to have the stamina, the grit, and the determination to succeed, and to possibly take jobs that aren’t exactly what you’re looking for or don’t exactly fit, if you want to major in English and take that degree elsewhere.”)

                2. Terra*

                  For some reason I can’t reply to Misty’s comment below, but yes. They are similar. If you want proof, look anywhere like Glassdoor, Indeed, job search sites for your city/state/the federal government. You are not going to find “English major preferred” or “English” listed as a job description.

                  If you look at people who took their English degrees and ran with them, they’re going to be people who were highly determined, creative, and able to parlay their degree into another position. It’s not impossible to find a good paying job with benefits and decent work hours with an English degree, but it requires a high level of tenacity.

                3. Misty*

                  This is in response to Terra:

                  Okay I get what you’re saying now. I did notice that on indeed, like you see jobs looking for specific degrees but none really looking for english degrees.

                  Yeah. I think my brain is sufficiently fried at this point today lol

        2. ThatGirl*

          Yeah. I was a comm major, I started in journalism but moved to marketing/creative services/copywriting and while I’m not filthy rich, I do pretty well with plenty of room to move up.

    34. Jessica Fletcher*

      Hi! I actually have a BSW! Perhaps it will put your mind at ease to know that if you do earn a BSW from a program accredited by the Council on Social Work Education, you qualify for the accelerated MSW up to 7 years after you earn the BSW. So you don’t have to go to grad school right away if you don’t want to. And you generally don’t HAVE to do an MSW unless you do decide to do therapy or research (because most jobs like that want you to be licensed, and most states do not offer bachelor’s level licensure.)

      You also seem anxious about graduating “on time” – so let me disabuse you of the belief that it’s even typical to finish a bachelor’s in 4 years. It’s not! Most students take 5-6 years to finish a bachelor’s degree. I took 5. I transferred schools and changed my major (TO social work and political science, from just poli sci.) Graduating after a lot of my high school friends was so hard at the time, but you know what? Absolutely no one cares now, and employers have never ever asked me. If anyone ever does ask, I’ll just shrug and say I changed my major. Most people do! It’s fine!

      I do think it’s worth looking at the very wide variety of jobs you can do with social work. I never even intended to do therapy, and it was the right degree for me. I was able to do a combo of classes in my BSW that worked for what I did want to do – which at the time was to be a legislative operative for a PAC. There are a lot of social workers in government, not doing therapy! We’re a group that wants to make the world better, and we do it in a bunch of different ways! If you have any interest in doing any social work career that is NOT therapy, you should consider finishing the BSW because it’s going to help you. You can absolutely do an English minor or dual major.

      I loved my BSW program because I was able to integrate both my fields – social work and political science – so I did things like policy analyses with a focus on the impact on marginalized populations, and I did my undergrad thesis on indigent defense/sentencing reform in my state. I also didn’t take the psych research seminar that social work students took. I was allowed to take the poli sci research seminar instead, which was so much better for me.

      Although I have never worked in therapy and never wanted to, personally I see how my social work training enhances my work all the time. I work in public health, and have worked in a few different areas of public health – research, education, direct assistance (helping impoverished ppl get connected with resources), and public policy. I’ve done everything from help people get signed up for public benefits, conducting public health research, political campaign work, representing people at public benefit hearings, and I even testified before my state legislature. I see the world through the lens of social work, which looks at the whole picture, the bio-psycho-social model. I’m in a grad program right now that’s not a JD but it’s at a law school, and I’ve received feedback multiple times that I identify issues that no one else in the class sees. I think that’s from my social work training. I work in health law now, and it’s super fun because I work with a lot of lawyers and MBAs, and here I am with my BSW, getting tons of positive feedback and recognition.

      So anyway. A BSW is not only for therapy, and your social work advisor does have a point that your field placement can really help you see where you want to go with the degree. I did my field placement at a public interest law firm. I was the first person from my school ever to go there. I wanted to do that, so I met with them and got my program to pull them into the approved placements. It was a great experience, and other students have done their placement there, after I did!

      I think it’s absolutely worth figuring out more what field or job you DO want to work in, and see if there’s a social work connection. If not, ok. But don’t discount social work just because you don’t want to do therapy. It’s so much more.

      A last thought – don’t you dare switch to psych from social work. Psych is like social work lite. In a lot of states, social workers can do all the same jobs, do all the same functions, including diagnose, and MSWs usually make more money. A good friend did her undergrad in psych, and did her grad in psych because her advisor told her not to do the MSW. Then she found out that professionally, it’s better to do the MSW. Without it, she got stuck doing a bunch of extra classes post-grad and spending a bunch of money to get licensed in her state, which she would not have had to do if she got an MSW, because an accredited MSW is a nationwide curriculum. /soapbox

      1. DarthVelma*

        I cannot remember the last time I heard someone talk about the bio-psycho-social approach. Took me right back to undergrad. :-)

        Plus your story makes mine not feel so out of the ordinary for a BSW. Thanks for sharing it.

        1. Jessica Fletcher*

          Thank you! I am disappointed that others who are not social workers don’t seem to be taking a moment to consider that perhaps they do not know what social work actually is, and perhaps they should widen their narrow view beyond therapists and child welfare workers.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Psych and social work can both be used for clinician therapist jobs, but they come at it from different approaches, it’s not really fair to say psych is social work light.

    35. Mama Bear*

      Do you have the flex in your schedule to do a semester of inquiry? By that I mean, pick a few classes from different majors you are considering and then figure out from there what you love/hate. My stepson did that and ended up finding a major he liked better than the one he started with, and the classes that were not “core” were able to be counted as elective credits. Social Work is hard. Really, really hard. Nobody seems to stick with it unless they have a passion for it. If you do not, then find something else. However, also remember that every major has classes that are less fun. Determine if it’s the content/future job or the type of class (project/group work/research….) that you don’t like.

      1. Misty*

        I’ve taken intro to social work, intro to music, intro to sociology, principles of writing, intro to criminal justice, critical writing, intro to psych, went in the world (history class), Western Globalization (history class), Lifespan Dev (psych), biology 1 and lab, world religions, statistics, theories of personality (psych), spanish 1.

        I’m currently taking oppression and diversity 1(swk class), oppression and diversity 2(swk class), biopsychsio (swk class) and a writing class.

        Do you have any suggestions of any other classes/categories that may be good to explore? I guess the majority of what I’ve done is social work, psych, and a few history, and writing. I did not like my criminal justice class at all.

        1. Sandman*

          Someone mentioned business/finance above, and that could be good. I’m wondering about more technical classes, too – I just recently took a GIS mapping class and LOVED it, and it’s never something I thought I would or should do. I also like that it’s a hard skill, since I feel like a lot of my other skills are harder to quantify (writing, speaking, etc.). Maybe others have ideas that would be similar.

          1. Misty*

            I actually had been looking into geography but then I figured that was an ‘impractical’ degree lol

            I googled the GIS mapping and it looks super interesting.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              The company I work for (writing and editing) creates software for that mapping – it’s pretty cool. You could look into taking stuff like that as electives.

            2. frobly*

              GIS could be a really flexible option if it interests you. I work in local city government and the need for GIS folks who can bridge the tech and human sides is high. If you can be both a technical problem solver and a people/communications problem solver you would be sitting pretty.

              I’ll make my pitch for working in city/state government real quick. My educational background is in Theatre/Communications (ha ha!) but I’ve been working for my City for over 15 years now. For me it hits all the right notes: I’m helping our community, it’s a steady paycheck with a decent salary and great benefits, and most of the time I can leave my work at work. That allows me to pursue creative endeavors outside of work. I also enjoy seeing “how the sausage is made” with city government. Balancing all the needs of the city and personalities of the electeds and the realities of budgets and other constraints is pretty interesting. It’s an impossible puzzle that’s never quite solved. :) Anyway! Just other “helping” career option to consider.

              1. Misty*

                It does interest me. I almost changed my major to geography but I was told by someone that that was a bad idea. I’m thinking this upcoming week I’m going to try to meet with the geography department and the finance department again and ask some more questions.

        2. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

          Have you thought about public health? Some schools have combined MSW/MPH programs, which would give you either option when you graduate. I have only my own experience to gauge, but I have an MPH and make about $20-30,000 more than my BIL and his partner, who both have MSWs. But with both degrees you could have some flexibility if one ends up not being as appealing as the other.

          1. Misty*

            I’ve literally never even heard of public health! I’m googled it with my school’s name and it came up as”Bachelor of Science in Community and Public Health Promotion​” with three different tracks. Does that sound like what you are talking about? I wasn’t sure because of the word promotion at the end.

            My school doesn’t have a combined track with social work.

            1. nym*

              Yes, that “community/public health promotion” degree would be a good place to start. Public health combines a lot of different interest ares from what you’ve said here – the interaction with people, problem solving, serving the community; and it gets away from counseling or therapy, which sound like they might be difficult for you in the long term.

              Pay is not stunning in public health most of the time, because you frequently work for government or nonprofit organizations (although occasionally a hospital or insurance company, or large employer). However it’s typically a living wage or better. There’s always a need for people with hard skill sets like you’ve referenced here as well – finance, and geography, are integral parts of what we do. All that coronavirus stuff in the news lately? our GIS people are in the middle of tracking cases, trying to predict where it’s going to spread next and how big it’s going to get. Our finance people are writing contracts, memoranda of understanding, statements of work, and everything else that will let us keep the machines moving.

              One of the most fun things about being in public health is asking people how they got there as a career. There is no single path and no single interest, and the field is so broad that there’s a niche for everyone. Most of us fall into it by accident. Maybe you’ll fall into it a little earlier than most, and be better able to choose your pathway.

    36. Indoor Cat*

      Just going to throw this out there: I majored in English and now I have gainful, stable employment. BUT, it’s 100% because of my writing skills, not my knowledge of literature.

      I think reading great literature enriched my life, but in terms of job placement, I’ve found that majoring in English with a writing concentration is a much better option than majoring with a lit concentration.

      I currently work in marketing, and previously I’ve worked in technical writing. I like that my work is flexible, sometimes I can work from home, and on the flip side, I don’t have to bring work home with me. I typically work less than 40 hours/week and make enough to live well. My work also has options regarding pursuing more solitary assignments or group projects.

      As someone who has also dealt with some trauma and has mental health struggles, I have found the option to choose between a day spent at home in private versus a day spent at an office, both writing, to be a significant boost to my mental health. I’ve never had to specifically request accommodations due to the flexible nature of writing work.

      All that said, some English majors I know graduated with sub-professional-level writing skills. Due to their poor writing portfolios, they really struggled to get jobs and advance in their careers, even though we graduated with identical degrees.

      I attended a state university as well and, like you, was fortunate to graduate without debt. My first post-college year was shaky, employment-wise, but after that, I made a solid income consistently.

      Good luck!

    37. Carrots*

      My main piece of advice is just not to get stuck in this idea that major=type of career. Sometimes it does (engineers should know engineering and teachers generally need an education background) but a lot of times it doesn’t. I was a history/English double major at a liberal arts institution, and a lot of people assume my English degree is what led to my job (writing). But, actually, what I learned as a history major was much more useful. I have a friend who was a history major who is now a financial analyst; another who was a psych major who became a lawyer; a sociology major who’s now in advertising; a bio major that’s now an HR specialist; and another bio major who does fundraising for nonprofits. None of these were particularly circuitous paths for any of us.

      With liberal arts majors, it’s more about “teaching you critical thinking skills” than any specific subject matter. There are some jobs where you need to have a specific degree (so it’s good to think now about whether any of them is your life’s passion) but it’s also totally reasonable to come out of college with a degree in something and get a job in a field that doesn’t necessarily seem related, but they’re just looking for someone with good judgment and who knows how to think.

      So if you think you’re going to find English classes most engaging/interesting, don’t shy away from that just because you don’t want to be a writer. There are plenty of transferrable skills there.

    38. Lalitah28*

      The only times I’ve seen people stick with social work (I’m 43 years old) is if they do LSW work where they work as a counselor/therapist to people. The state where I reside allows you to be licensed to be a therapist with an licensed social work program and you basically perform talk therapy for patients.

      If you feel English is the way to go, might I suggest you see what minor concentrations you can do in business management, marketing, communications (especially social media management) so as to have more marketable skills? I’m concerned that you’re picking English because, as you said, “love reading and I love writing papers.” Writing papers is not necessarily an employable skills; copyright is, so you do need to take classes that teach you the different types of writing outside of academics to prepare you for the real world. Additionally, internships are very much crucial for popular majors like English and they would be hard to come by if you have to work and go to school at the same time. Have your career counseling department reach out to the alumni network so you can talk to someone who has walked your path before you make any major moves so you know what you’re getting into.

      Sometimes, it pays to take secretarial work in your target industries to get a foot in the door while you go to school because (1) you’ll make more money and (2) to get the inside view of how the world works. It is a reality check that I think someone who doesn’t have a large room for risk (no rich relatives to help you out) should seriously consider.

      1. Misty*

        I live in a very small tourist based town (think dead in the winter months and jam packed in the summer) if I named it you would def be able to point it out on a map.

        I’m not sure what kinds of secretarial work I would be able to get that have to do with english. Did you mean like front desk work or more like if I lived somewhere bigger like publishing? Just looking for clarification on that sentence: “Sometimes, it pays to take secretarial work in your target industries to get a foot in the door while you go to school”

        1. Lalitah28*

          What I meant was: if your aim is to work in, for instance, public relations you can get a job as an admin as you complete your degree and have a foot in the industry and make contacts to expand your network. Just make sure that you’d be making more money as an admin than your current position.

          Secondly, do a lot of research on the job possibilities for an English major at your local library. College career departments are good to connect you with alumni who can really give you the real day-in-day-out of their struggles as newly graduated English majors in the Real World. See where they are working and how they got there and if they are willing to share salary information with you. In other words, do not leave things to surprising you later down the road, when it’s hard to pivot and make a take a turn in another direction.

          And from what you’re saying that you’re in “very small tourist based town,” be prepared to consider moving for better and high-paying career prospects.

          Most US state labor departments publish salary demographic data by county and city, in most cases to give you the statistical reality of what income ranges you’re up against. For instance, here’s the one for South Carolina: https://jobs.scworks.org/vosnet/dashboards/defaultana.aspx?menuid=MENU_START_PAGE_SERVICES_ANA&apane=MENU_GROUP_LMI_CUR&pu=1&plang=E

          All the best.

    39. Hiker*

      Your school should have a career center; they might offer major exploration and counseling. The resources might help you decide what to change to and what options you would have with that degree.

    40. So very Anon*

      My reply might be lost by now, but both psychology and English majors can do very well at many tech companies, in fields like user research, UX design, technical writing, content strategy, product marketing, account management, HR, and so on. The key here is getting relevant skills outside your college degree, getting good internships that allow lots of experience while still a student, and networking like crazy. I think the OP might be in a region where it’s not necessarily easy to do this type of networking with the right type of companies, so doing as much of this as possible online, attending relevant inexpensive meetups and conferences, and so on, is crucial.

      For me personally, my poverty- and abuse-stricken childhood still feels way too close to want to be a social worker. I strive to help people from less-advantaged backgrounds get good jobs, because I have found that a reliable income helps more than just about anything.

      2. Misty*

        Your reply did not get lost :)

        And yes, I live in a very small town. But I’m going to try my best to get an internship and network. I’m already commuting an hour to school, I’m willing to commute longer if I have to and I think I’ll def be moving once I graduate.

    41. Dream Jobbed*

      Stop. Take a deep breath. And spend some more time figuring out what you want to do. Work on your general ed credits and take a little of everything – finance, science, philosophy, economics, forestry, etc. Get some exposure in a lot of areas. Take harder courses so you are challenged. Recognize that lower division courses are often more boring than upper division/specialized courses, but they are a general guide to what you will be studying. If you don’t like them, you might not like the field.

      Before majoring in English (and it’s never a bad idea to become a good writer, just recognize it does offer some limitations) figure out why. What do you want to do with it? Technical writing can be a good choice, but do you want to? Do you want to teach? If k-12, LOTS of jobs out there, especially for math and science, and you can make enough to live on. But you have to teach. ;) The perfect field may be something you never thought of. Are you good at practical math? Are you a great leader? Do you like working with kids? Do you love building stuff or fixing it? (Want a great living – think about being a plumber or electrician, and get some business courses in so you can run your business.) Like doing your taxes? Take the H&R Block Tax Course – that led me to one of my professions. Worst case, you do your own taxes for life. Go to your college career center and see if there’s any aptitude tests you can take. See how many different professions you can spend a day ghosting.

      Find out what you like before settling on your first profession. (Yeah, good chance you’ll have more than one.) Find out what coursework you are good at by taking the tough subjects. Maybe you are great at science and are meant to be a doctor, nurse or PA. But recognize there are a 1000+ careers out there, don’t just stick to what you are familiar with!

      Good luck!

      1. Misty*

        I’m going to the career center on Thursday so I will ask about the aptitude test. Thank you for the advice.

        1. ten-four*

          Hey there, I’ve read this whole thread and you sound awesome and thoughtful. A thing I want to suggest is: what if you decided you wanted to make an absolute BUTTLOAD of money. Not aim for “slightly above subsistence” or “mostly comfortable” but really pulling down the dollars?

          I’m not suggesting that you should do this, mind you, but I think it’s worth considering. You’re doing some big picture thinking and matching it to long term planning, you’re clearly thoughtful and good at accepting feedback, you’re making smart financial decisions about loans/classes – you’ve got the basic chops to do some pretty cool work that gets paid really well.

          I really recommend looking into user experience design, engineering, finance, accounting, sales, and business. All those fields deliver quantifiable value to organizations, they all pay well, and the skills you’re demonstrating in this thread will help you succeed. When it comes to degrees business, finance, and accounting are all good options for a “check box” degree. And then internships are where you start in with user experience and engineering.

          Helping professions are great, don’t get me wrong, but you don’t have to do that. You can prioritize a big ol’ paycheck instead, and ultimately seek out a career that’s interesting, fulfilling and well-paid. I kind of hope you do! It sounds like you’re due to really prioritize yourself, your success, and your happiness!

          1. Misty*

            Thank you for the compliments and the advice. I really appreciate it. At the moment I am leaning towards finance and english but I think you’re right about the money. If I didn’t have to struggle so much then I could help anyone else I needed to support which may be good in the future.

            It was amazing experience being able to get so much advice from people. This ended up being an almost all day project of reading comments, writing notes, and googling things people pointed out. I usually have a hard time finding “an adult” to talk to about school who isn’t professors or my personal therapist since most people I know are underemployed or haven’t had the option to go to college. (My grandparents have a 4th grade education and 8th grade education). Since I live an hour away from my school, sometimes I feel a little isolated. Being back at college is really a big deal for me, I didn’t think I’d get the chance to go again.

            I am going to meet with the chair of the finance department again to ask some questions next week. Also on Wednesday I’m going to a presentation at my school about the stock room in the finance department. Hopefully those will catch my interest! It would be nice to do something that I can enjoy some of the classes. I know that of course it won’t be easy and I may not love every class but it would be nice to look forward to some of them.

            I will write a post next weekend (if that’s cool with people) to let you all know if I got closer to choosing something. I really appreciate everyone spending time talking through majors and ideas with me. It means a lot to me to be able to draw on everyone’s combined knowledge, experience, and ideas.

          2. Misty*

            I wrote you a reply but it must have gotten eaten by the abyss. Thank you for the compliments and advice.

            I think you may be right. After talking to everyone on here today, reading all the comments, and researching all the things people mentioned; I’m feeling that it may be smarter to not major in english. I honestly do not know what I’d do with the degree and I already know I’m capable of finishing a book without it (I wrote a book but it’s not published or anything but the point is I did it two years ago before an english major was even on my radar so I likely could do it again and do something with it if I found someone to edit it.)

            I am going to ask more questions of the finance department and also they have a presentation Wednesday night so I’m going to make it a point to go to it and hopefully it’ll catch my interest.

            I have a question. So when I was talking to my professor (english professor) he said that a lot of times it’s hard to get a job in finance unless you get a MBA. Does anyone know if that’s true? He also showed me articles that said that the humanities (as a major) end up doing better over time even if they start off slower in the job market.

            Honestly one of the main reasons I posted on here is because college sometimes feels like a scam. I know it’s a business but when the SW department kept telling me to stick it out for another year, I just felt like they either weren’t listening to me or they just wanted me to stay because they said I’m honors material. It’s almost like being a high performer is a negative when trying to get advice. If that makes sense.

            1. Dr Rat*

              Try not to think of college as a scam; think of it like brushing your teeth. It can be a pain, but ultimately it pays off. Look, there are a ton of high paying jobs you can get without a college degree, but most of them are skilled trades, not desk jobs. If you are after an office job, you will generally need a degree in SOMETHING.

              But many companies don’t care what the degree is in. For instance, there are a lot of psych and English majors working in insurance. I once saw an example where there were 2 strong applicants for the same job. One had a degree in a completely unrelated field (Drama!) and one was working on a degree in the field, but didn’t have it yet. It was government funded and required a bachelor’s so the drama major got the job. And did very well at it.

              If you want to be in a “caring” field, think outside the box when you talk to the career counselor. Speech therapists are always in demand and in my experience have higher salaries than social workers. But be forewarned – in any “helping” field, you will be spending a minimum of 25% of your time with paperwork, and in some jobs, that can go up to 50% or more. Also think about that MPH that someone mentioned earlier.

              Maybe you could be cut out to be a medical writer – I did stints in the field and it pays very well. English major, biology minor? Think about Googling “unusual careers in X field.”

              Personally, if you can switch majors without adding too many semesters, I would not stay in a major that made me miserable. But it’s a personal decision for you.

              And remember, outside the medical fields, your degree is not destiny. I’ve changed careers completely multiple times in my adult life and so have many people I know. Your degree is just a starting point.

              Best of luck and keep us posted!

              1. Misty*

                I apologize, I didn’t mean to say college was a scam, I meant more the process of trying to get advice from advisors in different departments felt like I couldn’t trust what they were saying if that makes sense. I had been advised to meet with all the different department chairs of the programs I was interested in but it felt like they were trying to sell me on their department which lent to the feeling that college was a business. Which I mean college is a business in a large sense. That was one of the reasons (main one actually) that I posted on here because I knew that everyone on here wasn’t trying to get me to join their department. However, I love college because it’s really great to have the chance to learn and be around so many people who are invested in my learning! I never thought I would get to go back.

                Thank you for the advice and also for the comment about paperwork, that is something I didn’t think about! I’m not a fan of paperwork at my current job.

            2. Diahann Carroll*

              So when I was talking to my professor (english professor) he said that a lot of times it’s hard to get a job in finance unless you get a MBA. Does anyone know if that’s true?

              This isn’t true, and you should probably go speak to some finance professors at your school to get their perspective on this (and also do your own independent research). I know plenty of people who only had a BS in finance or even business who ended up getting good jobs in finance after they graduated, and then their companies paid for them to get their MBAs if they chose to do so.

              1. Misty*

                Yes, I agree, I’m meeting with the finance major department this upcoming week.

                I guess I got a little confused because I had the SW professors telling me to stay at least another year and try to internship, and the english professor and the chair have been really convincing about how versatile an english major is, however when I asked more specifics about how to get a job in the field, it got much more vague.

                My plan is to meet with the finance and geography departments again and suss out more details about their programs. I’m done w SW once this semester is over and I’m not sure english is the smartest move considering that I don’t know what I’d do with it.

                1. Diahann Carroll*

                  however when I asked more specifics about how to get a job in the field, it got much more vague.

                  This is because a lot of your English professors are probably lifelong academics and have never had an industry job – they can’t tell you what all you can do with an English degree besides writing or teaching because they’ve never done anything else themselves. This is where going to your school’s alumni office and asking to be put in touch with former students can help you. Those students will most likely not be in academia and will be able to give you a much more realistic view of what to expect with an English degree. Or any degree really.

    42. Sunflower*

      Just my experience: I have a general business degree from a state supported school. I contemplated doing a psych or MSW and becoming a therapist so I looked a lot into my options. I ended up not going to grad school- I like money too much and the time, schooling and pay wasn’t worth it. If somewhere down the line, I get married and my income isn’t as much of a factor, I would still consider becoming a therapist. The truth about burn out in social work is real so I would explore if that’s really what you have interest in doing.

      When I was in college, I talked to a lot of different counselors and advisers (my school has one of the best career services in the USA). The counselors were helpful to figure out my strengths and what careers may be a good fit but the advisers are only trained on their programs and ‘selling’ their program in a way almost. They were not good resources for figuring out what I wanted to do after college. I heard a lot of ‘this is what you CAN do’ instead of ‘this is how likely it is that you will be able to find a job doing that’. If your school has any sort of alumni network, see if you can get in touch with someone with a job that looks interesting to you and find out their career path(even if it’s via LinkedIn)

      If I could redo it again- I would have gotten a very concrete degree(finance or accounting probably) that allowed me to do a certain type of job that I wouldn’t have been able to do without it. My view is I would somewhat easily be able to get a good job because I’d have the degree and could still get a job in marketing or something else with that degree if it didn’t work out. No one in college really knows what they want to do and the more general your degree, the more it’s just a piece of paper IMO. Your internships in college will weigh much more on your job prospects after college than your degree for the most part.
      Find out what classes you need as pre-reqs to a LSW or MSW and get them completed as your Gen Eds so if you do want to get your masters, you won’t have to take on additional schooling. I would NOT get an English degree. There are so so so many unemployed people with English degrees.

      Go to the library and pick up ‘Do what you are’ and ‘What color is your parachute’. I found both of them helpful in laying out what careers I would excel and enjoy (I read both of these at age 31 and 7 years into my career BTW)

      1. Misty*

        I just requested both of the books from my library online! Thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it.

    43. Wandering*

      I hope that part of what you take from this conversation is that people have a wide range of experience & have given this serious consideration in their own lives, so that it’s easier to see that the “answers” are likely to come in the form of the right questions.

      My first thoughts here are:
      – guilt is a terrible reason to choose a career. Do you think those who have helped you do so out of guilt? Don’t you think that they’d be thrilled to see you thriving, however that looks for you? And there are so many ways to give back when you ready if that’s what you want to do. Being a success is a way to be helpful in itself; be an example of creating a good life after a rough start.

      – it’s hard to choose when one doesn’t know what’s out there.

      – what excites your curiosity? What kinds of things get your mind engaged & makes you want to learn more? What patterns do those make? A friend told the story of her mother having a hard time choosing between medicine & sculpture in college. What do you think she might have gone on to do with those seemingly unrelated interests? Plastic surgery. She gave people back their faces.

      – Onet, mentioned elsewhere, is a great way to look for ways to use skills & interests, browsing there can be eye opening.

      – college degrees cycle between the virtues of liberal arts education (which includes STEM in the broader sense) to the need for job training. So think about a serviceable degree but one that’s interesting to you. Sounds like you really dislike the bsw classes now, & aren’t interested in pursuing the common jobs for MSWs. That’d be enough for me to switch to something else. Based on some of what you’ve said, what about a major in business with a minor in English? In the current climate a business degree seems more widely understood than an English degree, but you could just as easily flip them. Business degree (or finance, if you really enjoy numbers) is currently more likely to gain you entry in higher paying entry level jobs.

      – are you wedded you staying in your town? Might you transfer to another state school in a larger, more year- round town with more options for work?

      – you’re clearly hard working, smart, & determined. Please keep us posted on what & how you’re doing.

      1. Misty*

        This line really stuck out to me: “it’s hard to choose when one doesn’t know what’s out there.”

        That’s so true. Honestly just being back in college is truly a dream come to for me. On Thursdays I have morning classes and then a night class so I stay on campus all day in between doing homework. I’ve found myself just crying in my car out of pure relief in the parking lot at being able to go somewhere with so many options and caring people. I have a professor that’s been really looking out for me even though I just returned to school. I am so fortunate to have this chance.

        I will def keep you updated. I deeply appreciate every comment everyone has said. I don’t think I could explain to you all how much it’s meant to me to have this chance today to talk through these things with you all. It really has been great.

        Also I appreciated the plastic surgery story. That’s innovative and I need to find my niche like that!

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I think this story about how important the chance to be in in college is for you is all the payback the people who have helped you need! Thank you! It gave me a hopeful moment for my students who are struggling right now.

    44. Alex*

      Move forward with your degree (any degree) only when you have some idea of how you want to use the degree. Really and truly, you will get more out of your education when you are working towards a goal you find fulfilling.

      Social work would be great if you found the idea of being a social worker fulfilling, but it doesn’t sound like you do. There’s nothing worse than paying a whole lot of money in order to study for a degree in which you have no interest, which will get you a job in which you have no interest. Trust me. Been there. Done that.

      English is a fine degree that actually does have job prospects, in spite of what people say. However, please make sure they are job prospects you are excited about. Don’t get an English degree because you enjoy reading literature and writing papers. Almost no jobs for which an English degree qualifies you involve you reading books and writing papers all day.

      Think about what jobs you want. What would excite you? What do you feel you would be good at? If one of those jobs IS a social work job, stick it out with social work–real life social work is not social work academic classes. If you really do not want to be a social worker, there is absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. You do not owe anyone a social work career!

      You’re only going to be in school for a few years out of your life. Don’t choose your major just based on classes you enjoy but find yourself at loose ends after school is over. But similarly, don’t spend your money on classes that bore you in order to be qualified to do something you aren’t excited about. Neither of those options is really wise.

      If you can’t figure it out exactly now….it may be OK to take a semester off to think about it. There’s no point pushing forward if you aren’t sure you’re on the right path. It might make sense to see if you can volunteer places or develop some new interests that will show you how you want to proceed.

      1. Misty*

        Thank you for the advice. I would say one of the problems is that I’m not sure what would excite me or what I would be good at.

        However, for personal reasons, I am not willing to take another semester off. I actually am just returning to school after taking the past five years to work full time and save money. I’m not sure if I took any more time off I would be able to go back because of personal life circumstances (housing, food, etc.) and I can’t take that chance. I know that may sound unwise but at school I have resources and people I wouldn’t have otherwise and I’m at a point in time where it’s really amazing for me to have that – if that makes sense. I’m very committed to staying in school at this point in time.

        The good news is I’ve already paid for this semester and I have the summer so that gives me some time to think deeply about my options and all the ideas everyone has given me. I wrote down all the questions everyone asked me on here and I will be thinking them over.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Absolutely stay in school – those resources are so important for your future success, believe me. One of my biggest regrets from my undergrad years is that I didn’t take full advantage of the resources that were available to me because I was too depressed and too embarrassed about being depressed (and very poor) to do so. I struggled so much after graduating (and even while attending to be honest) because of it.

          1. Misty*

            What resources do you wish you had taken advantage of? Like what advice would you go back and give younger you?

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              One: go back and live in the career advisor’s office, not because I think those types of offices generally give great advice, but because they had a huge book of companies with contact information that would have been very helpful for me after I graduated. The company I currently work for takes most of their software engineering interns from my school, many of them end up getting permanent job offers their senior year, and I had no idea this company existed until last year! They have an office in a building literally down the street from my school’s campus! I could have done a marketing internship with them while I was in school and secured a job my senior year and completely bypassed all of the struggle I endured the first four years of my career.

              Two: I should have spent more time in my school’s black student union. They had a presence in our local community that would have also helped me find a job when I ran out of work study money my senior year, and they also provided support for students from low-income homes.

              I also would have gone to the counseling office sooner (I waited until I was on the verge of a breakdown to go talk to a therapist) – my grades took a massive hit, and I barely recovered (I graduated with a 3.0, but for someone who came into the school with a 4.2 GPA, that was a huge decline), and I didn’t do a great job at my first co-op because I was spiraling (I did nail my second internship, though – I was doing weekly therapy sessions at that point).

    45. Anonymato*

      I think social work degree gives you lots of options to discover. When I review resumes I see lots of English and Psychology BA that don’t give me sense of specific skills (sorry to all grads of those fields!). Therefore getting finished with a degree, esp if it means you can get a licensed, seems to be the best route to me. (And yes, I was sick of my degree towards the end. While I feel it helped me get my job, I don’t actually use any of it.)

      The social workers I know work mostly as therapists, and have lots of flexibility in their jobs, inc some doing lots online sessions. While some do trauma focus, school focus, addiction work and work with underserved populations, others specialize as oncology social workers, work with the veterans, with eating disorders, some do writing and support grant-making, and private psychotherapy practice for stress.

      I am sad that it sounds like your school perhaps didn’t teach you one of the most important things for social work field: not taking on secondary trauma from your clients and people around you.

      1. Misty*

        In one of my social work classes a big problem I’m seeing is oversharing. I understand sharing in a sense when it’s relevant to the material. But there is multiple people who go off for over 20 mins (I’ve watched the clock) about things they’ve gone through. I’ve been surprised that the professors don’t try to redirect in a more teaching manner if that makes sense. I don’t see how making the rest of us listen to someone venting about their trauma is helping us learn actual skills or boundaries. It’s one teacher in particular that lets people do this but I have multiple classes with her.

    46. Social Werk*

      You’ve gotten lots of great advice already. If you are ok with the idea of getting your master’s, I don’t know that there’s as much pressure to choose the *perfect* bachelor’s. What I mean is, I have a good friend who is a social worker (MSW) and her bachelor’s is a General Studies degree. It took her a while to figure out what she wanted to do and that’s ok. At least around here many Master’s programs don’t require you to have a related bachelor’s. For the record I’m a social worker with both a BSW and MSW.

      I wish you all the best and hope you find the answers you’re looking for

    47. Senor Montoya*

      Talk to a cross curricular advisor, such as an advisor in your university’s first year or undecided program.

    48. A Cat named Brian*

      Look into a career awareness class or even free online programs that have interest inventories. The one I used with my students is Meyers Briggs. Answer honestly and don’t overthink. It will give you an idea of what you like and your preferences in interactions. Then you can Google careers for your type and investigate from there.

      Do not finish in SW. My first degree is in psych. Had the same feelings but too close to not finish in the field and didn’t like the jobs. My next two degrees are mechanical engineering. Best fit.

      1. Misty*

        I just did the Meyers Briggs and got INFJ-A.

        Also I appreciate your insight on your degree in psychology. I think that’s what would happen if I finished with SW as I’ve found in the past ignoring my gut feelings only works short-term.

    49. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Hi! Really late to the party on this, but here goes.

      1- It’s okay not to be a social worker. I’m a teacher, not a social worker, but I do deal with plenty of at-risk kids and while it would be wonderful to have one of those ex-students tell me they were now a teacher, just knowing that they’ve gone from the traumatic stuff I supported them through to a good, stable place where college is an option is amazing news! Finding a good job that makes your life stable and happy will be all that your former mentors want for you.

      2- Figure out where most of your unhappiness with Social Work is coming from. If it’s the traumatizing material then yes, switch out. If it’s the boring nature of the class work, I would hang in there until you’ve had a chance to do an internship. Honestly, I was bored out of my tree (in terms of intellectual challenge) in my Education program (lots of short reflections on short articles, lesson plans that were really over the top for the real world, some arts and crafts). While the stuff I did in those classes has some connection to ‘real’ teaching work, the reality is 100x more faced paced and never, ever boring.

      3- Pick your degree with future careers in mind, but keep some variety in your course selection so you can pivot if or when you need to. I did a BSci in biology intending to go into medicine, but as it turned out, the sociology and second language courses I took ‘for fun’ were what got me into an Education program when med school didn’t work out. (I teach science and social studies in that second language now).
      PS. to 3 have you looked into sociology? There’s a similar focus on social inequality, but since the scale is bigger I didn’t find it too depressing, not sure where that takes you job-wise, though.

      1. Misty*

        I really appreciate this advice esp #3. I was thinking of taking some American sign language classes for the language requirement. I feel like that would be smart because if I got really good in it, that could come in handy.

        To answer #2, it was the realization that I have no desire to work in the field of social work after graduation that has been causing the unhappiness. The feeling kept growing stronger these last few weeks. The material doesn’t help. I don’t feel traumatized by it. I don’t get upset over anything. Other students actually sometimes cry or start talking about their lives but I don’t feel like that. I find myself just wanted to leave class and learn anything else if that makes sense. I think it’s because at this point I want to learn new things and a lot of this isn’t new to me. I’m sure once I got deeper into the program I would be learning new things. For example, some of the books we’re reading for classes are books I’ve already read when they were recommended by therapists or I found them on my own online or in the library. A lot of the material is just things I already know about. I’m not saying I know everything of course, I just seem to have a lot of overlap of things I’ve learned over the past few years and things we’re currently learning this semester. It also could be because I have a lot of experience in a lot of different categories of social work. I think I just realized I would rather learn almost anything else. When I look over the list of majors in my school, a variety of them appeal to me much more than sw. It also doesn’t help that the assignments and readings are very easy. My professors keep telling me they think it’s because I’m honors material and it’ll be better once I get into the masters program.

        I have taken an intro to sociology class which was pretty interesting. I’m pretty committed to staying away from anything that could lead to the mental health field at this point (psychology, social work, sociology are some that comes to mind.) I had a therapist that was actually a sociologist and then got her MSW later. And I could never go into a medical field personally. I have a strong aversion to hospitals and doctors offices. Other than those two categories, most other majors look fairly appealing and like they have some pros interest wise.

        I really appreciate your advice and life experience. Thank you so much for posting.

    50. Anon MSW*

      Hi Misty, I’m not sure if you’re going to see this as it’s been a few days but wanted to raise my 2 cents.

      I am a MSW social worker, from Australia, and I also have childhood trauma. I currently work in Child Protection.

      I think lived experience can be an asset as well as a negative. You have to know your biases – for example, I am often in the “don’t return kids” camp as I don’t think I should have been left with my parents. However, I have made that work for me: work in foster care, or long term case management where children rarely are returned – I don’t think I would be able to work well in Investigations role for example. But it’s hard, as in supervision I am choosing not to be honest about why I have that bias: I am doing my best to mitigate and keep an open mind, which I have recently achieved with three siblings being reunified after 10 years in out of home care.

      University is one thing but placements for social work are another. I felt I learn more than the degree taught me in the placements.

      But everyone else is right: if you don’t love it, burn out and expectations on top of crazy work loads and comparatively low salaries is real. Love keeps you moving forward!
      Happy to talk further if you want :)

    51. Leela*

      This may have been mentioned but see if you can get Technical Writing focus for your English, it’s much more lucrative and you want it to fall back on even if you don’t want to pursue it, unless you have a steady stream of income from other places

      Source: languages major with lots of English major friends, and a few Technical Writer friends

  4. Publishing and Speaking*

    I’d like to pick the brain of anybody NOT in academia who publishes in industry/trade journals or speaks at conferences in your field. I’m a mid-career professional who needs to start distinguishing myself as an SME through publishing, speaking, etc.

    I follow trade publications and conference announcements, and they all seem to work by announcing a theme, then calling for submissions on an incredibly tight schedule.

    How do you generally go about this process? Start writing articles, hope you can cram them into a theme that pops up, then submit? Stalk the themes presented, then go nose to the grindstone to meet the crazy timeline? Outline a few ideas, then let them sit until they seem relevant?

    I am finding this process to be like shooting while blindfolded.

    1. Academic librarian*

      I’m in academic libraries, which is the academy, but sometimes things are announced on a fast turnaround. My thoughts/questions below are kind of how I think about it. It looks like my thoughts seem to combine your stalk the themes + outline ideas questions. I hope it’s helpful :)

      How can you package the work you’re already doing to fit the themes of the CFP? Are there two or three different angles you can take on a big project, so that you could feasibly reuse portions of an abstract or proposal and alter what part of the project or topic you’re focusing on?

      Do conferences follow a pattern year-by-year? So like, you see the CFP this year, can’t make the timetable, and decide to have something almost prepped for next year. Or, do your profession’s conferences all follow similar themes, like if the Jan conference is Themes A & B, then the Feb conference might be Themes A&B too or adjacent? Then, when you see early in the year what themes seem to be popular, can you start preparing a proposal to submit to something in the 2nd half of the year?

    2. FindThisVeryInteresting*

      Many publications have annual editorial calendars that their journalists know about far in advance. I would start following and social-networking with writers and editors of targeted publications. Start commenting on their posts, sharing their work, etc. (do not connect with them and make an immediate ask). Once you have built a relationship, you can reach out and ask what the calendar is looking like in the next several months and see if your work can fit their needs (check any media guidelines your company has first). If your organization has a PR department, definitely leverage them. As a former PR rep, I can tell you that they are constantly looking for stories pitch to help position the organization as experts across departments and industries.

      For conferences, the themes are often really broad. I have multiple colleagues (and myself) who have 3-4 pre-built mega-decks that can be paired down to fit a specific topic. Realistically, most people are only experts at a handful of items. Know where your strength lies and be prepared to take advantage when you see opps come up.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      You may be overthinking the originality required to submit and receive a slot. Generally, I see people decide that they want to talk at Big Conference, they take the general topic of their Big Idea and bend it to fit the criteria of the requirements. So, if I’m a SME on Lama Data Wrangling and I decide that I want to do a talk at the Performance Improvement and Value Conference, then I put together a presentation on how Lama Data Wrangling can be used for Performance Improvement. I throw in some flashy slides, give the presentation a snazzy title, and boom! I get a speaking slot.
      The bigger and more selective conferences are more strict, but you can easily get time at a fringe conference if you put some time into it. And once you have a library of presentations, it becomes easier to fit into the stricter criteria of the Big Conferences.
      Start small and work up.

      1. JessicaTate*

        Agreed. More for conferences than publications. The themes are generally vague and people are really stretching to make “topic I want to talk about” seem like “topic I want to talk about spun to be kinda about the theme, or at least in the title”. And as a former program committee chair (who decided on session slots), if there’s an interesting topic proposed and it’s not a great fit to the theme, but would be of great value to the membership… oh, we’re letting that in. Also agree with AndersonDarling that it is easier with smaller and/or more regional groups. If you know someone who’s gotten accepted before, talk to them about tips and what the reviewers tend to like.

        For publications, I use a similar approach. I know what I want to write about / have in my work that I could talk about, and then I’m either looking for publications with space for open calls or looking for a theme I can align with to come along. A lot of times, in my field, themed issues only require a proposal for an article first before you’re committed to writing the whole thing. But YMMV.

    4. limpet1*

      I work in adtech – to get a shot at speaking your best bet is to have built up a profile via publishing articles. Best way to do this is reach out to journalists with an idea of a piece (that is interesting, relevant to the publication and journalist and not at all self-serving) and ask what types of topics they’re interested in hearing about. You can also self publish on Linkedin/websites.

      Then for the conferences, i’d suggest reaching out to the organisers before they publish the call for papers to get an idea of what they’re looking for/how you could maybe fit. Again has to be non-self serving or salesy. At the very least they might give you a timeline for submissions which will help. I’d suggest creating some topics you are an authority on and then tailoring them to the event – if it’s a stretch to make your expertise fit then it’s probably not worth your time applying. Also be aware, a lot of speaking slots are often paid for, but check with your industry.

      1. WellRed*

        “Also be aware, a lot of speaking slots are often paid for, but check with your industry”

        Yes, if you need to be paid, tread carefully. In my industry, that doesn’t happen (I don’t agree with that, but it is what it is).

        1. designbot*

          yeah this varies a lot by industry. In mine, your attendance at the conference is paid for but your company is expected to foot the bill for your travel.

    5. WellRed*

      Trade journal editor here. Email is your friend. In addition to checking out any editorial calendars they may have, I’d recommend shooting the article writer or editor an emailed comment on an article, or even just reaching out to introduce yourself and offer to be a resource should they need an SME for an article. If you’re good, and reasonably accessible, they’ll reach out again. We see lots of SMEs we talk to publish guest commentaries or guest blogs with us, get quoted in articles and speak at industry events. We are dipping our toes further into things like paid webcasts with SMEs (though not until they have somewhat established their name in our weird little industry).

    6. 867-5309*

      Most publications have editorial calendars and publish author guidelines. I’d start there.

      Similarly, most conferences have speaker submission processes that are very clear. Look at the overarching conference theme and address the topic to align to the different tracks.

    7. designbot*

      I’m a designer, and there’s two ways I attack this.
      1) have a topic on hand. Have something you’re interested in, an article you’re toying with writing, some research in progress, as often as possible. That way when those last minute deadlines come up (or the stuff from category 2 I’ll touch on in a minute), you have something that it’s fairly quick to pull together, if not ready already.
      2) personal connections. I never spoke more than the year that I knew the director of education for my professional society. Simply because I was in orbit I stayed fairly top of mind for him, and when he had a hole he needed to fill he’d call me up. The first one of these was literally “I know this is last minute, but I had a speaker drop out of our conference in Vegas next month. Do you have anything you could talk about?” My answer was, well I’m promoting this one project right now, it has themes of upcycling vintage teapots, collaboration between teapot makers and baristas, and teapot design for rotating flavor profiles. Do any of those fit well? We found one that did, I developed it, and I’ve given that talk a couple of times now and developed it into a blog post for my company. And once this guy knew that I could deliver on short notice, he felt free to call on me more. And once people saw me speak at conferences, they were like oh I didn’t know that was a thing that you did! I have a panel I’m working on about Women in Teapots, could you be on it?

    8. Nom de Plume*

      I’ve presented once at a regional conference. I had a very rough idea of a presentation and submitted an abstract. My boss helped me come up with the abstract/reviewed it before it went out. Then I crammed to write and practice the presentation. Probably less than ideal, but it’s how I did it. I want to present at the same conference again this year, but I really can’t think of a topic I want to discuss. A lot of the presenters definitely are more academic, so as a consultant, I just don’t do that kind of work.

    9. The New Wanderer*

      I work in industry and present about every other year at a handful of conferences. In my field, we have the Big Annual Conference, Niche Conference, and some up and coming rival conferences. I would recommend scanning the most recent program for any conferences you might be interested in to see what the range of topics are. Also, the specificity of the proceedings paper titles is a clue about the kind of scope they are looking for. Sometimes the abstracts are also available so you can get a sense of what is being presented. You can also see whether the conference publishes full proceedings papers or just abstracts. Proceedings papers are a way to get more publications without having to go through the much lengthier journal article route, and the visibility is pretty high. My most-cited papers are from conferences, not journals.

      I have been on a few conference panels and proposed/organized one, which is another way to participate and be recognized as a SME but doesn’t usually result in a full paper in the proceedings. This is really good for networking, less so for leaving a published track record.

      Last thing to note – some conferences have copyright clauses and it’s bad form to submit the exact same content to multiple conferences. However, it is common to use the same base content and present different aspects of it for different conferences.

    10. Not a cat*

      I was an industry SME for ten years who published and spoke at many, many conferences. The advice to look at industry pubs and pitch according to their editorial calendar is a good one. Is there a way to start “workshopping” or running a series of roundtables in your current role? You could use the information gained from the sessions and room polls to publish a paper that could get industry press pick-up. What about conducting a survey of your company’s clients? You could write a report and presentation on the results and that may also get some interest.

  5. (screams internally, rolls eyes outwardly)*

    I work at a nonprofit advocacy organization. We often have to talk about barriers and problems people face in many situations. For instance, talking about how eating healthy can be difficult when you don’t have a lot of money for fresh vegetables or how you don’t have a grocery store within 5 miles of your home and can’t afford to drive and your area has no public transportation system. My boss drastically overstates some of these barriers. For instance, saying that people in a certain social services professions are obligated or barred from certain things. Like saying “food pantries aren’t allowed to have vegetables.” This is extremely frustrating for me because I have personal experience in some of these areas, have close friends who work in these roles, and speak with people who work in these roles or receive services regularly. The things that she is saying are just Not True. I think that maybe at some point many years ago someone made a second hand, flippant comment on something and she’s taken it to be the gospel truth. When I hear my boss tell a room of people something that is patently false, I want to scream! Now there is a room full of people (often interns/students who are beginning work in this field) who walks away with false information and they then go out into the world and continue to repeat this false information. I also feel that this is damaging to the people we serve and our overall mission because 1) it’s misinformation and 2) it’s contributing to false stereotypes about the people we serve and 3) it makes us sound uninformed to anyone else who has any familiarity with people who perform this job or receive these services. Today, I even started to think that maybe my experience was misleading me. So, I looked up a job posting/description for one of these roles and the first 3 bullets are basically to perform these duties that my boss keeps telling people they aren’t allowed to do. I am so frustrated. I have tried saying “oh that’s strange. That hasn’t been my experience at all.” Or showing her the forms that someone might have to fill out that contradict what she keeps telling people. Basically, a waiver saying that these people are going to perform these services and giving them permission. I’m not sure what else to do or say when she is telling people that we have to work to change these conditions when in fact there is nothing to change because she actually doesn’t know what she’s talking about.

    1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      Yikes.

      This sounds like the point where you would need to escalate it, if you can. Is there anyone above your boss?

        1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

          Uf. In that case, I think the only thing you can really do is job hunt. It sounds like you’ve addressed it directly, so we’re back to Alison’s refrain – your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.

        2. Sue*

          If it’s a nonprofit, there is a Board of Directors. I’ve been on several and if our ED was doing this, I would absolutely want to know. It sounds so frustrating for you and so damaging to the reputation of your group.

    2. Ashley*

      Have you tried asking why she thinks x? Or if is x false how she proposes duty y is performed? For the food bank example I would really work to set up a site visit so she can see she is wrong first hand without that being the point of the visit but the icing on the cake.

      1. (screams internally, rolls eyes outwardly)*

        She has said that “legally they aren’t allowed” and I have not been able to get her to elaborate further on where the got that information. For what it is worth, I have seen no regulation saying saying anything like this. It’s possible hypothetically that there is/was at some point a requirement that they cannot provide romaine lettuce or spinach (because of e coli concerns for example) or exotic vegetable that was known to cause certain problems that snowballed into her thinking that meant all vegetables.

        That is also why I brought in the forms and documentation that actually said that certain services would be performed if needed if the person wanted this and if so complete this waiver and let us know about allergies or whatever with a list of specific vegetables that might be provided.

        1. Mel 2*

          I’m wondering if she got this confused with food pantries not being able to take food prepared offsite. I do some regular volunteer work with my local shelter, and they cannot accept leftovers from other events (other than their specific brown bag lunch program). People will come with big trays half empty, and the shelter has to throw them away. I can see mistaking “We cannot legally accept your fresh vegetable lasagna” for “We cannot legally accept your fresh vegetables” through office telephone.

          2. Anoncomment*

            I think it is more an isssue of perishable vs non perishable products. Many food pantries around me won’t take fresh vegetables because they don’t have refrigeration facilities but they will take canned vegetables

    3. Ama*

      Could you perhaps find an external news article or trusted source with the correct information and then send it to her as “hey I don’t know if you’ve seen this but it looks like several food pantries actually do offer vegetables, maybe we should update our info”? I’ve used that successfully before (I actually spoke up as the most junior person in a senior staff meeting to correct someone above me who tried the whole “we should tell everyone not to share their salaries with each other because it causes hurt feelings” and then sent the link to one of Alison’s posts on the subject after the meeting.)

      1. (screams internally, rolls eyes outwardly)*

        I have tried giving her examples of my personal experience like saying “you know if I recall from my visits to food pantries, I was always able to get fresh vegetables. And here is the website for a food pantry that shows vegetables are available.” She’s convinced that these are rogue organizations breaking the rules or misrepresenting themselves.

        I feel like I’m talking to a wall. Obviously, I’m not really dealing with food pantries, that’s just a more common/relatable example for the sake of discussion. I don’t feel like a site visit would really be possible in this situation because of privacy concerns and other regulations. I have tried to set up situations where someone who does this job has the opportunity to talk with her. And leading the convo a little like “so tell us/her about what it’s like when people come in asking for vegetables”. I don’t think it’s getting through though.

        2. pancakes*

          Why keep framing it as a matter of personal experience with individual food banks, then, rather than seeking out a comprehensive and authoritative source on what the regulations are? At the federal level, for example, this might be covered under the Bill Emerson Good Samaritan Act of 1996. The idea that the boss can’t get a handle on important regulations unless and until someone else in the field sits down with them to review their unfounded assumptions is very strange.

          1. Mama Bear*

            I agree. I would get data from hard sources and use that instead of “in my experience” because she keeps citing a mysterious law and discounting your experience.

            If you really can’t change her mind and this is driving you crazy, then look for a different job.

        3. Lalitah28*

          Your state department of health or your local municipal department of health is the arbiter of these things. Check out their website and see if there is a hotline you can with your question. Then present it to the boss. But really please do look for another job while at it.

    4. LCH*

      Could you ask reps from the other orgs like the food bank to come in to give a presentation on how their org works, barriers faced, how they reach people. And give them a heads up that you are looking to correct certain misconceptions.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I like this idea — especially if they’re able to describe it as “the way things are now” to give your boss an honorable out. The boss wouldn’t have to admit an error — she can learn about a change in law and start pontificating on that.
        It’s worth asking if there is/was a rule against *home grown* or home-canned vegetables because those I could see being a source of rot & ruin. (Ooodles of soft and possibly mildewed tomatoes… Overripe zucchini that are so hard they’re hardly edible… Someone’s deceased relative’s canned veggies with no record of the canning date…)

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I think this is a good way to go, if possible. Instead of the boss giving out the information, have the experts deliver it; you can spin it to the boss that it frees up her time to focus on more important tasks. Have printed information from the service providers handy to give to the audience. Even if it directly contradicts what the boss has said you don’t need to call it to her attention, and she probably won’t read it anyway.

        My boss is a bit like your boss — he loves hyperbole when it comes to describing any issues our department faces. That’s part of his personality — he’s a chicken little who thinks the sky is falling…always. But he also thinks if the situation seems dire, the powers that be will take it MORE seriously; but in fact, it makes them do the opposite and they end up dismissing any problems he brings up as an overreaction.

    5. Marny*

      How about suggesting that the organization invites in people from with hands-on experience (food bank managers, the people who you know in social services) to be the ones to speak to the students/interns in order to give a first-hand account about the services? Perhaps position it as a great opportunity for Q&A-type panels or something?

      1. Mainer*

        Ohhh I also worked in good security and stuff like this irritates me to no end! I’d suggest checking out the resources at Feeding America for information about what food banks and food pantries do, also invite someone from your local food pantry or food bank to speak with your team. They should be able to answer any questions about what services can be offered at their location. You could also set up a volunteer day or something where your organization could visit a local pantry or food bank.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You actually have two problems here. One is the misinformation. But the other problem is your boss has a block or a barricade of some sort to learning new things and changing her mind. This latter problem is VERY concerning.

      If you stay with this NPO you will spend the rest of your days fighting this battle. (BTDT) You may get her straightened out on some things but then more points will come up that need correcting. (I consider myself almost expert on this particular challenge. sigh.) Drawing on my own experience, this type of problem will hold YOU back professionally. You will spend so much time putting blow-out patches on problems that you could find yourself disconnected from current happenings. This is because problems like this are very labor intensive. I found myself behind on technology and a slew of other things because I was too busy fixing all. that. was. wrong. I had to prove that grass is green and the sky is blue and round wheels actually do work. It was flippin’ exhausting.

      In the end, I found that all I could do was a self-check. I could make sure that I did not turn into such a person myself. As far as I know, the boss in my story remained the same up to retirement.

    7. Sandman*

      It seems to me that in order for your boss to persist in her belief that some of these things are true, she’s not just ignoring you – she’s ignoring her program staff as well. It seems unlikely that you’ll be able to repair her perceptions, although it’s probably worth digging a little to see if there are things she’s seeing that you’re not.

      With that said, I worked for a boss like this at an NPO many years ago who wanted me to include “stretches” like this in grant proposals. It didn’t end well for me, and I wish I had started job searching much sooner than I did.

  6. nate333*

    Do you have any tips concerning peer interviews and interviews with possible reports?

    By peer interview I mean interviews not with the hiring managers or HR but with possible peers performing the same role.

    I’m quite successful with dealing with interviews with the HR or hiring managers, but have difficulties managing interviews with peers and reports.

    I’m applying for positions in low/ mid-management. 

    1. NowWhat?456*

      I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I’ve been the interviewee for a position and was interviewed by two of my peers, one of whom was lower ranking than me and reported to me on certain projects. And I’ve also interviewed candidates to be my manager in a few separate roles.

      In these situations, I’m definitely looking to see if we click and can communicate well. So I ask a lot of behavioral questions (how do you handle a challenging client/volunteer, how to you handle working long hours, etc.) and my go to question no matter the interview is “How would you describe your communication style/management style?”. This tells me a lot about how the person does their work and works with a team, as well as manages me.

      One of the things my current supervisor did when I interviewed her was asked me to describe a typical day of my work and how her role could potentially help streamline it. It impressed me a lot, and I recommended to hire her immediately.

      1. nate333*

        You write you are looking to see if you “click”.

        That’s precisely what I find tricky. I’m not a naturally warm, bubbly, relaxed person. While this isn’t a problem in my technical profession, this makes the initial “clicking” more difficult to create.

        I get that spontaneously in many social situations. But when I interview it’s more difficult.

        Interestingly I’m more relaxed talking to possible bosses than peers.

        1. NowWhat?456*

          I don’t mean “click” in the sense that we would get along and have a regular camaraderie (though due to the nature of my industry, that type of personality is seen as a skill).

          When I interview a peer, I make sure that they’re ok with regular communication such as messaging on slack, or being ok with answering the phone to answer a question, or asking for help when they need it. This is something I need to effectively do my job. I have interviewed people in the past that have been very into their own work and only answer emails at the end of the day, or that they prefer to try everything themselves before asking for help (when it could be solved in two minutes if you asked a peer!).

          When I interview a potential manager/supervisor, I’m trying to make sure they understand my role and their role. A previous position had the word assistant in the title. Many people who applied and interviewed were mistaken that it meant I would be their assistant, when in reality I was there for the whole team and handled a lot of the program tasks (and I would be in violation of my contract if I did a lot of the work they expected). I make sure they’re qualified to do the job, and that they comfortable asking me questions when needed, but also comfortable giving me feedback when necessary.

          Does that clarify where i’m coming from? I saw in your other responses that you don’t want to oversell or seem super qualified at risk of coming off as a threat. Just an FYI in my experience, I never take a well-qualified candidate as a threat. I take them as a potential asset to my team and someone who could make my work life easier and more fulfilling. If they are taking you as a threat, that says something about the workplace (or your demeanor, but based on your other responses I highly doubt as you’re coming off as combative during interviews with peers).

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      What difficulties do you find yourself running into?

      In my last interview, I asked my future peers about their workflow, what they’re looking for from someone in the role, what challenges they face, etc. If we’re going to be working together I want to learn about their personalities and needs to make sure it’d be a good fit. It has been life changing for me to recognize that we are all talking to each other to make sure the job is a good fit on BOTH sides.

      1. nate333*

        It’s difficult to describe precisely, but while talking to hiring managers and the HR I find it easier to find rapport. I find it easier to understand the questions they are asking and what their expectations towards me are.

        While talking to possible peers I have the feeling I fail to impress them. I always try to be friendly, not competitive, but it doesn’t help.

        I find it super tricky too. Since on the one hand they ask me questions about my experience, so I’m expected to come across as knowledgeable and having the necessary skills. On the other skills, I don’t want them to feel threatened (this has happened to me before), so I can’t be too knowledgeable and skilled.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Maybe ask about ‘what skills do you see as being required / optional for this role’ and talk about ‘I have X and Y, would need time to get up to speed on Z – how do you see that meshing with the existing team?’ Saying it matter-of-factly and pivoting to their skills / needs may help with the feeling threatened.

        2. The Rain In Spain*

          One thing that might help is asking re what they are looking for first and tailoring your interaction from there. If it’s a highly collaborative environment, focus on how you work well with others, value and respect others’ expertise, etc. That was helpful in my situation- there was a little bit of deference or fear that I wouldn’t be collaborative due to a difference in licensing/education and scope of duty, but I made it clear that though I had expertise in abc, they had expertise in xyz and we would be able to help each other. That really helped diffuse some of the tension/worry I was feeling from their side and the rest of the conversation went better. Maybe that can help?

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Not sure if this helps. When I start a job I find that most of the time my peers are focused on themselves and their own needs. It takes a bit (not long, but a bit of time) before they start realizing “Oh, NSNR is a human being also!”

          With this in mind, when you talk to peers make your questions All About Them. Ask plenty of questions about their opinions on this or that. Ask about their needs- “what does a peer do that makes them a good peer in your eyes?”. “Tell me a story of a new hire who really impressed you.” OR “If I am hired what is the number one thing I can do in my work that would be a big help to you?”

        4. CM*

          For skills stuff: I think that, if I were asking a potential colleague about their experience designing teapots, the type of response I’d be looking for wouldn’t be “I’m the best at designing teapots,” or “I’m nothing special when it comes to designing teapots,” — it would be more like, “You and I both design teapots for a living, so let me tell you about this particularly cool/interesting/complicated one I worked on.”

          If I were asking about the process someone used to design teapots, I think the answer I’d be looking for would not be “Here’s the basic principle of how to design a teapot” or “Regular stuff, no big deal,” — it would be something like, “We both understand that there are 800 different ways to do that, but personally I lean toward method X for these reasons. I’ve also done process Y and Z and I was reading about Q, and that sounds very exciting, but I’ve never tried it. What type of process do you use here?”

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      This same question (or one so much like it as to make no mind) was asked and answered last week. I think it was AnotherJD who asked it.

    4. ProdMgr*

      As an interviewer, what I’m looking for in a peer is ability to do the job, new strengths they bring to the team, and can we get along? Not are we going to be best buds, but will I be happy or sad if I have to work with you every day?

      When I’m being interviewed by peers, my go-to questions are about things they think the team does really well and things that have been challenging in recent months. I’m looking to understand what I might be getting into if I joined the team, and also it gives me an opportunity to position my strengths and experiences in areas where I might be able to help them.

      1. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

        I think it’s important to match their energy, because often a peer interview is about fit. If they are subdued and serious, don’t be overly gregarious. If they are casual, don’t be stiff. I would also hold back from criticizing their current work and ask questions that convey that you are a team player and eager to help, not overhaul.

  7. Nonprofit board chairman*

    Have you worked for a nonprofit and have suggestions for how to be a supportive board? I’m the chairman of a nonprofit and we just let our director go. I believe the employees who brought up complaints were brave and credible, and I’m proud of the full board for being willing to act.

    The hard part is, they are a young/inexperienced staff and most of the complaints they had about their previous director were just normal workplace frustrations. There were a couple things that were huge deals, however, and that’s why we terminated. I’m not sure how appropriate it is for me to get really involved and tell them what things didn’t matter and what things did… I don’t want to scare them from raising issues in the future, but don’t want them thinking every little frustration rises to the level of board involvement, either.

    I guess my question is fairly broad…how can I recalibrate their workplace norms meter and how can I help them rebuild a nontoxic culture while we search for a great ED? Help!

    1. knitter*

      I worked at a non-profit for a number of years as a director. While there was an ED transition, I reported to the board director.
      Can you get a consultant in? I know there are organizations that provide support in leadership transitions.
      For the time being, make sure there is an employee handbook that addresses the concerns and the appropriate reporting structure since there is a leadership vacuum.
      Depending on how long you expect the transition is and what the exact complaints were, I’m a bit on the fence about whether you should give feedback directly or give the incoming ED the heads up about what norms need to be reset. What were some of the not a big deal complaints?
      Maybe you meet with them and discuss as much as you can the reasons for termination. Other things you had concerns about, maybe you could say something like “While we understand XXX was a concern, going forward, please address those concerns by XXXX. If they are not resolved by doing so, then let the board know by XXXX”

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      100% agree here to have an employee handbook with an org chart and other information that will help employees understand how the structure works.

      I’d also suggest making sure that your board has adopted a full complement of policies, starting with a whistleblower protection, document retention and destruction, and conflict of interest policies. Other policies I like to offer my nonprofit clients include sexual harassment, gift acceptance, computer/internet acceptable use, confidentiality, and social media use. Some are board-specific, some tie into the employee handbook, and some cover everybody. You didn’t state what complaints the employees brought to you, but sometimes complaints from disgruntled staff can be headed off at the pass with a good complement of policies and instructional documents.

    3. InternWrangler*

      I think there is a lot you can do with staff to help them reset. They need to think about what they want to preserve about their culture, what they need to leave behind and how are they going to create a healthy, welcoming culture for the new executive. I do think a consultant would be helpful. There are people who specialize in interim E.D. roles and there are also people that will provide consultation and coaching about agency culture. Then I agree that it is important to define what the “grievance” policy is and what would rise to the level of the board. Best of luck!

    4. JessicaTate*

      Good for your board. It’s not easy, but it’s important. My opinion is that I think it would be entirely appropriate for you to have a conversation with the staff, maybe in coordination with whomever is taking on the interim ED-type role — this is the kind of thing you’d want a manager to coach their staff on.

      Maybe acknowledging and thanking the team for raising the serious problems like X and Y that need to be brought to the board’s attention because they are [insert rationale for why they are massive — legal ramifications, etc.]. Being clear that was the right thing to do. And then maybe also clarifying that you did ALSO hear about other issues that were really more normal workplace frustrations, and that you expect those can be resolved without the board’s involvement. And give some examples without being overly concrete to embarrass anyone.

      If they are young and inexperienced, I would be a little worried they (without coaching) would see this experience as a license to go to the board whenever they don’t like what an ED is doing (which will be frequently in their non-profit careers). I think using this as an object lesson in a positively-framed way could be useful for that. And then letting the new ED know about it to manage it from within.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I am a board member and I have been that frustrated employee.

      My suggestion is do not get involved in listing off what they cannot report to a board member. It’s just not going to play out well as they will tend to hear that you are saying, “You are bothering me. Stop bothering me.”

      Stay on the pro-active side by pointing out what TO DO.

      Setting policies is a good thing. Make sure the policies have a reporting structure. For example, we wrote a harassment policy that includes instruction on what employees should do if they think their boss* is harassing them. (They can go to a board member of their choosing.) The policy includes a time line for board response and includes instruction on how the board would show a proper response.

      *We also included instructions for what to do if an outsider such as a vendor exhibits harassing behaviors. We had instructions for what to do if a BOARD member was harassing someone. And yes, we also included coworkers.

      We made everyone on the board a mandatory complaint officer. This means that an employee can chose the board member they feel most approachable and talk with that board member. We put instructions in the policy to include what to do if that board member fails to respond properly.

      We defined harassment and we said the definition was not comprehensive but it was a lengthy definition and shows our intentions.
      We put in provision for the policy to be reviewed at set intervals and updated to meet changing needs.

      In order to get the ball rolling, we found harassment policies and other policies on the internet for organizations similar to ours. Our state also had policies online. Then we plagiarized like heck. We added things we needed for our setting and took out sections that were not applicable to our setting.
      We asked for employee inputs for consideration.

      We wrote in plain language, not legalese. We started with a clear statement for each policy. “Harassment will not be tolerated.” OR “Stealing will not be tolerated.” Each policy gives a firm statement about what we will not stand for.

      People worked in small groups of 2-3 people to write a draft. The draft went to the board and the employees. The revisions were collected and reviewed by the board. The final draft was created and the board voted on the policy. We used MS Word in collaborative mode to work on the drafts. (We just happen to have one board member who is an excellent editor, so she edits for grammar/punctuation but also for continuity and logic.)

      We have this down to a science now, where we can go right through policies and nail down the revisions and get that policy in place. The first few policies the board does are rough, but then everyone gets in the swing of it. We now have a chart so that each policy gets review every few years. The policies are available online and are also printed out in a binder at a central, accessible location in the workplace. (Small workplace.)

      Just my opinion, but I think the process is less tedious because each person knows they can say something and be heard, be responded to with an intelligent answer. I think this approach has helped to carry us through what we initially thought would be a painfully long and hard process with lots of arguing. It turned out that the process is actually good and we have very little arguing because everyone is listening to each other.

      So that covers the policies. When you hire your next director, go over what has happened and go over your expectations as a board. We made board meetings mandatory for our director. We expect a director’s report each month. Now, we aren’t stupidly ridged here, if the weather is bad or the director is ill/has an emergency, of course, we bend on this point. Typically, the director will email a report even if they do not attend the meeting and we really appreciate that.

      We make sure the director has what they need to do their job. Toxic workplaces start at the top. And sometimes the toxicity starts with a board that does not supply what is needed for the work. We make sure the director goes for regular training and has peer level connections. (It can be a lonely job being a director.) We make sure the director uses her vacation time and eligible employees use their vacation time. The director is allowed/encouraged to present employee suggestions for our consideration.
      If we have to say no to something, we make sure the reason why is understood. This helps with future suggestions as the person (director or board member) learns what goes into a suggestion that will be accepted.

      We also wander into the workplace on random days and say, “Hey, how’s it going?”. We are not doing this in an accusatory manner or with a suspicious demeanor. We go in with the idea, “I am here to help, is there anything you need from me?”

      Last and very critical. Make sure you have a mechanism to remove board members who are bad apples. This sounds so obvious. When I joined one board, there was no way to remove a bad actor. One of the first things I did was amend the bylaws to show what is considered bad behavior and how to remove that bad apple from the board. (I wrote a draft, they offered revisions, I revised, they voted and approved. I think I saw visible relief in the group that they could finally vote someone off the board for certain behaviors.)

      1. Nonprofit board chairman*

        What a helpful perspective. Thank you for taking the time to share so much. I’ll be returning to this for future reference.

      2. Nonprofit board chairman*

        Also, I often say “there’s no instructions for how to navigate the difficult side of being on a board.” I nominate you to write the book on it. Seriously, there’s a need.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Aw.
          No book I think, because there are so many things to know and learn that I just don’t know.

          I am a big fan of looking at the foundation type stuff. Are basics in place? Stuff like having bylaws and policies in simple language so that most people can follow along ends up being a huge asset. Everyone knows what to do and what is expected from them. That alone causes less arguing and reduces problems.

          The learning and teaching are constant activities. I might be learning on one aspect and teaching (sharing) on a different aspect. Our roles flip back and forth constantly between student role and teacher role. A board job done correctly can easily be a 40 plus hour a week job there is so much to learn, share, and do.

          It’s important to have a contact list showing who does what and how to contact them. XYZ Oil Company for furnace problems. ABC Accounting for financial/tax questions. DEF Agency for advice regarding arena specific issues.
          Have separate list of contact information for board members and staff. (This ties into some policies as staff has to have a means of contacting mandatory complaint officers.)
          It’s unbelievable how much easier things are when everyone knows who and how to contact others.

          One thing I have been working on lately is taking a new board member with me when I do an ordinary task. To me the task is ordinary. For someone who is new to the board, everything is ALL NEW. I introduce them to people, they see where they have to travel to and they become empowered to do things also.

          Working in pairs is great tool for a lot of things – so I favor pairing up. I have had situations where *I* requested at least TWO other board members jump in and help. So this is a two way street, sometimes I get asked to help and sometimes I ask for help.

          The other drawback to what I wrote (after it being a bit towards the covering the basics) is that I am used to small boards. Larger boards are going to have different needs and much of what I am saying either doesn’t work or is not even applicable.

          However, if you ever want to ask more questions I am willing to take a look and see if we can find some workable suggestions. I have noticed also that other people chime in with good stuff as the conversation goes along.
          If you find it daunting, that’s because it IS daunting. Talking with as many well-chosen people as possible is the path out.

    6. CM*

      I would also recommend getting a consultant, particularly one who’s focused on building healthy workplace cultures. I think it’s less important to spell out what you personally believe is a serious enough issue to report vs what you believe is not a big deal, and more important to create a shared vision for what a healthy, functioning workplace looks like and shared norms about how we all behave to make that happen. Also, while you’re looking for a new ED, I would prioritize getting somebody who has good interpersonal skills and displays an ability to deal with conflict, manage transition, etc. That person is really going to set the tone for whatever comes next.

      1. xyz991*

        Are there any good workplace culture consultants out there?

        It seems like many of them are the “typical consultant” i.e. Charge a lot of money to come in, declare that things are irreparably broken, and implement “changes” like hours long mandatory fun EQ and sensitivity training that leaves everyone angrier than they were before , or add layers of bureaucracy “Were going to appoint a Senior Chief Executive for Positivity who makes (an obscene amount more than the average worker) and does (were not really sure what)”

  8. AnotherAlison*

    I know preferred names, email names, etc. comes up a lot here. . .I was just majorly thrown off this morning. I received an email from Jane.Doe(at)company.com. Here email signature said Jane Doe/Administrator/Company/Phone. Then, the closing of her email said “Thanks, Julie”. Ummm. . .is her name Julie? Is Julie her assistant who sends emails from her account? I assume she goes by Julie, but I think it would be helpful if her email actually said Jane (Julie) Doe or something. Even her LinkedIn says Jane. Anyone have an email set up like this for themselves?

    1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      Yep. My email address and sent-from say Boochie. My signature, which per firm requirements has to be my legal name, says Boochie. My closing says ‘Chie,’ because that’s what I want to be called. I don’t like it any more than you do here.

      Am I going to try and see if there’s any leeway on it? Eventually, but right now I don’t have the space on my plate to take on this fight.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        But at least Chie is a reasonable nickname for Boochie. Jane and Julie don’t have that kind of connection (and I know they’re just fake names picked for this comment, but I assume the actual names are equally unrelated), so it does seem to want clarification.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Yep, that’s the extra confusion here. I would understand Juliana/Julie, but Jane/Julie is pretty unclear.

    2. Anony*

      If it was an admin, they may have been working from a shared inbox, or covering for someone who is on holiday, and forgot to switch the reply from email or signature.

    3. Stormy Weather*

      I wonder if it was an autocomplete issue, because autocomplete is stupid. I think this is a case where you’d have to ask.

      I had a consultant who used a nickname that you wouldn’t associate with their first name. Their signature read

      Legal First name ‘Nickname’ Last Name
      et cetera

      I’ve seen variations like Nickname (Legal First Name) as well. Regardless, the person with the name needs to be clear.

    4. GrumbleBunny*

      I’ve seen this, but it was always really clear what was going on – Like, Jeffrey.Doe signing off as Jeff, or Jeffrey.Doe having J. Timothy Doe in his formal signature line and signing off as Tim.
      In your situation, it is hard to know whether Jane prefers to go by Julie or has an assistant named Julie who sends email on her behalf sometimes.

    5. The Wedding Planner*

      Maybe she sent it from her phone and it auto-corrected her name? My phone wants my name to be “Arizona” every time.

      1. Sleve McDichael*

        I know a Nikki who’s phone always used to autocorrect her name to Milky and she’d accidentally sign texts that way. My phone always autocorrects Bridget to Bridport. Are the names close enough that it could be an autocorrect mishap?

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have seen a lot of people who have assistants who answer from their bosses/execs actual accounts. So it has the prefilled signature of the boss, since they command the email inbox ship. But yeah, when Julie sends emails, she puts her name in there to confirm it’s not actually from Boss Jane’s own fingertips.

      But, I also know someone who uses their middle name as their actual preferred name. So their email, being first.last@ it’s “Roberta.Jones@” and they sign it “Lindsey” because their full name is Roberta Lindsey Jones.

      You just never know, I would just respond using whatever name they signed off on.

      If they don’t sign anything, they just do the whole Thanks, and the signature block is their “name”, then go ahead and pluck it from the signature, they clearly don’t care enough to change that.

    7. Kat in VA*

      My first name is not the name I use in everyday life – I use a nickname based on my middle name. (Long story, parents wanting specific Irish Catholic names but someone in the family already has those names so we’ll use a middle name nickname for BOTH of our kids as a compromise! Hilarity at school, the DMV, and doctor’s offices commences.)

      However, since my org’s naming convention for email requires legal firstname.lastname@company.com, my email reflects that — but my signature block says say Kat, I answer my phone with Kat (desk or cell), and I introduce myself/am introduced as Kat. (My cube nameplate says Firstname “Kat” Lastname.)

      It can be confusing. I even have people who speak to me on a regular basis in the office call me Kat to my face but will address emails to me as Firstname.

      However, if the LinkedIn says Jane and the signature block says Jane, that simplifies things! I would just go by Jane since it’s in her signature block and you took the extra step of checking professional social media where it also says Jane. If was important to her (like it isn’t to me), she would at least clarify in her signature block the way my nameplate clarifies (Jane “Julie” Doe).

      Side note: If you’re worried you’ll offend her, I don’t ever get bent at people using Firstname for me even though I use my middle name. There’s enough things to have to remember on a regular basis at your average company without having to keep which name this particular administrator uses, as well. To extend that annoyance about name confusion to someone not in your org would be pretty obnoxious.

    8. Katniss Evergreen*

      I was emailing with someone the other day whose user account responses within our purchasing system are all labelled with his legal name, which does not mention his preferred name at all, but he signed his name at the end of the response. Once I flagged it for myself, I asked if what he signed was his preferred name and apologized if I’d been referring to him incorrectly – he confirmed and was cool with it. I think if you apologize once/recognize you were off and correct yourself going forward, people usually understand (I think this was seconded in the semi-related thread on communication with trans folks).

    9. Chaordic One*

      Yeah, this is confusing and frustrating. My workplace also requires people to use their legal name (including middle initial) and it makes sending an email complicated if you don’t know that someone goes by their middle name or what someone’s middle initial is.

      Then there are the women who get married. Some of them keep their maiden name, adopt their husband’s last name, or use a combination of the two (usually, but not always hyphenated). I don’t have a problem with what last name someone wants to use, but I do think it should be consistent. Don’t call yourself Jane Smith and use Jane Jones for your email address.

    10. 2e*

      Julie might be her middle name. That can lead to an apparently unrelated first name in an email vs. signature. My work email includes the initial of my first name and my middle name, but I sign emails with a nickname associated with my middle name (which is the name I go by). Not my real name, but it’s like if my name was Laura Katherine Lastname, my page on the office website said “L. Katherine Lastname,” and my work email was lklastname@company.com–but I go by Katie so that’s how I close my emails.

      I will note that I do this only for professional licensing reasons; you need to know my legal first name to look me up, so I want an indicator that “Katherine” is my middle name. Otherwise, I would ask to just have Katherine Lastname and leave off the allusion to my first name.

    11. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      My boss and I have names that are similar and start with the same letter. I sometimes have to send emails from his account (when I really need a response, and know an email from him will be far more effective than an email from me). I have accidentally signed my own name to the email (only once! I hope). So that can happen.

  9. Notfunny.*

    I’m in a toxic job, it’s not going to change and I know I need to leave. I’m not sure exactly what I want to do next but have a couple of options to pursue. How do I decide whether to leave without something else lined up (financially I can be unemployed for a little while/my partner supports me leaving anytime now because it’s a detriment to my mental health) and when to do this? How have you made this decision? Any wisdom to share?

    1. Lalitah28*

      Is temporary/contract work available in your line of work? I would start by looking up a list of the ones in your area and start at least looking at their websites if they advertise jobs there. One way you can get a list is through you local public library (if you’re in the United States or maybe Canada). Many of them subscribe to Reference USA or similar databases where you can search for temporary employment firms using the SIC codes (https://www.bls.gov/ppi/ppi7361.pdf) and narrow it down by geographic area. I did this and was able to go on a lot of interview in the NY City area just using this method.

      I hope this helps. And do tell me if it doesn’t so I don’t go and tell someone else the same thing. :)

      1. Notfunny.*

        Contract work is an option for some of the roles that I’m considering, so this is a great idea to break in to a new field for me. I hadn’t ever heard of the method to look at SIC codes but I will take a look, thank you for making this suggestion!

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, contact and temp work are a good stop gap until you can find something else permanent. Just have a plan for how long you want to do this because some people, through no fault of their own, can get trapped in the role of temporary worker.

      2. Tidewater 4-1009*

        I’m sorry, but I don’t understand how to look up these SIC codes by region. Could you explain?
        Thanks!

    2. Elephant*

      Obviously, only you know if you can quit without something lined up. You have to weigh your finances. You know your industry and a ballpark idea of what other positions may be available in your area and how hard they would be to obtain. It’s impossible to know how long job search will take, but these factors can help you make the right choice for you.
      It could be helpful to come up with an end date. For example, you could tell yourself that your last day of work will be May 1st (or whatever day makes sense for you) no matter what (unless you find something earlier). I did this once and it really helped. I had a countdown calendar and it was so much easier to let things roll off my back when I knew I wouldn’t be dealing with my toxic workplace indefinitly. And, I did find a job in the meantime. I also found that the toxic job had made me so bitter/anxious/negative that it was effecting my interviews with other places. When I decided my end date, I interviewed a lot better and actually got two offers!

      1. Notfunny.*

        I have been thinking about an end date and i have a milestone birthday coming up in a few months so that may be it (I’ve been thinking about setting an end date with or without a new gig because I just can’t imagine this going on endlessly). I think I could find temporary work or project based employment if it gets to be too lengthy of a period of unemployment but it’s so hard to tell how long a search could take, you’re completely right.

        1. Old Lady*

          Try to do something so there isn’t a large gap in your resume. Start your own little business as soon as you leave. Use that date on your resume. You could also volunteer or work a low paid job part time.

      2. Loubelou*

        Came here to say this. I gave myself a deadline for leaving my toxic job and it made such a difference. We knew if it came to it we could live off my husband’s salary for a while, but like Elephant, the relief I felt meant I was much better at interviewing and I had a job lined up and was also able to give myself two weeks off to recover.
        This was so needed – if you do get a job offer, schedule yourself some time to detox and avoid bringing any of the baggage from current job into new job. Look after yourself for a few days!

    3. eshrai*

      First, I want to say I’m sorry you are in that position. I have been there, and I understand. I did once leave a job without something else lined up, not because the job was toxic, but it was a bait and switch. I was supposed to be an account clerk and my job ended up being driving a large van around picking up cash boxes…only I have major anxiety with driving. So my job caused me to have panic attacks and I lasted 2 weeks.

      My partner at the time (we were engaged to be married) gave me the green light to quit, and we would just live off his salary. It was scary, but in the end it did work out. He didn’t make a lot, but we had savings, and very minimal expenses. One thing that is very important to consider before doing this is, do you have enough in savings if your partner loses their job? My partner ended up getting very sick and needing surgery during this time and we ended up trying to live off of his disability while he recovered. Obviously not enough, so I ended up having to get a job waitressing while he recovered and I looked for a permanent position. Again, it all worked out fine in the end, but money was tight. If you have the savings, and it would save you mental anguish, I would go for it.

      1. Giant Squid*

        Good points and thanks for contributing, just wanted to fist bump someone else with driving anxiety/phobia!

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I have it as well and totally would have quit too if something like that had been sprung on me after accepting a job. I panic whenever I get a new job and they tell me travel will be involved because then I have to divulge that fact to ensure they’re okay with me taking car service or ride shares when I get to my destination (thankfully, no company I’ve worked for has had an issue with paying for this).

      2. Notfunny.*

        Oh no, that bait and switch sounds terrible! I’m glad that you got out of there ASAP.

        I think financially we will be ok for a while – saving for buying a condo helps and we got married last year so there is a healthy emergency fund. I guess I’m struggling with how to give myself space to just step away. I care a lot about my coworkers and there isn’t ever going to be a good time to leave but with the under staffing in my part of the department, it’s going to be a big mess. And part of me feels guilty for just walking out of the workforce for a while when it’s really not SO bad. But yeah, it’s pretty bad.

        1. SunnySideUp*

          The sooner you leave, the sooner you’ll find the job you want.

          Don’t wait for a birthday, a staffing reason or because your coworkers will be left behind. You need to do this for YOU.

        2. Arts Akimbo*

          I’m concerned that you’re minimizing how bad the toxic workplace is. I suggest just start applying for jobs now! Then you will have started the process. You don’t have to feel guilty for protecting yourself! Good luck, and I hope you get an awesome job!

          1. Notfunny.*

            I’m applying now and focusing on networking, but it’s exhausting because my days at work are so draining. I’ve gotten pretty good at minimizing how toxic it is, you’re right, and that’s making it challenging to prioritize myself. Thank you for the encouragement!

      3. Just Another Manic Millie*

        I worked at two toxic companies, and both jobs were bait and switch. I gave two weeks notice at both of them without having lined up a new job when something happened that made me say to myself, “This is it. I can’t go on pretending any longer that this is a normal company. What just happened is completely unforgivable. I have to get out right now.” Well, in two weeks. If something like that happens to you, you’ll know it.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      I did, under protest. It was so bad it was affecting my mood and carrying over into my personal life. We were in a fortunate position where my SO’s income was bumping up drastically and could afford for me not to work a bit. Once we made the decision, it made it much easier for me to deal with toxic job. I waited a few months to give notice (wrapped up a big project). I filled my time volunteering (related to my field) and applying for jobs. It took me much longer than anticipated to find a job- almost a year. So that’s something to bear in mind as you plan. Fortunately I found an absolute dream job I enjoy and plan to stay here unless something drastic changes!

      1. Notfunny.*

        I’m so glad that you have a job that you enjoy (and I hope it stays that way)!

        That’s a good point about how to fill time, I will need that because I get restless when I don’t have a lot of structure so it is good to make a plan before having a lot of time.

        1. The Rain In Spain*

          Thank you! I will add that networking definitely helps (even though I’m introverted and find it super awkward), but knowing someone can help you get your foot in the door. Depends on your industry, of course. Hoping you find something that’s a great fit after you’ve had some time to recharge and purge the toxicity!

    5. rageismycaffeine*

      I went through this for about 18 months when a job I relocated for was just not what I wanted. My husband and I had several difficult conversations about budgeting for one income, whether I could find part-time work, what I would do with my time if I wasn’t working, etc. Ultimately I ended up holding out and the person making my job miserable was let go, and now I’m so happy I stayed around – but I had no way of knowing that at the time. We could have made it work, though, and he absolutely supported me – but it was my decision of whether to leave or not.

      All you can do is ask yourself those same questions, and especially whether your mental health can handle continuing to stay there for an indefinite amount of time while you hope another job pans out. You have to make this decision for yourself, as impossible as it seems. It sounds like you’re already considering the important factors. Maybe set yourself a deadline: I can handle this for another X months, during which I will look for a job. If I don’t have a job by the end of that time, then I will go without for however long it takes. My advice would be to make sure you have a plan in place for budgeting, etc. before you take that dive – it might make you feel more comfortable about the whole thing.

      Good luck!

    6. OhBehave*

      They longer you stay in the toxic job, the more your workplace norms get skewed. If you can leave, do so now.

      However, knowing you are in a toxic job is a big first step. As has been advised before, approach the job/office as a researcher. “Look at that behavior! That’s some batsh&^ crazy stuff.”. Remove yourself and bask in the knowledge that you will be free soon. Use the time, while still there, to research your new job wants. Is there some reason you would not leave now? i.e. upcoming bonus, travel you enjoy, etc. Any health needs that need addressed (physicals, immunizations, dental work, etc.).

    7. blepkitty*

      Leave, but if you think it’s going to take a while to find a new position, first make a plan for how to spend your time while you hunt for a new job. I’ve sort of done this (it’s complicated), and being unemployed is weirdly boring and stressful, not to mention isolating, and if your toxic job has made you feel bad about yourself, it’s really easy to keep feeling bad about yourself if you’re at home browsing the Internet or watching tv all day.

    8. Fikly*

      The first thing I might ask myself is, “Is my current job making me so unhealthy that I am unable to look for another job?”

      If the answer is yes, it’s probably time to quit without a job lined up, because you can’t get a job lined up while continuing to work at this one.

    9. Anon for this one*

      I presume your partner would be financially supporting you once you’d used up your savings.. consider this aspect and the ‘power’ implications of this carefully, especially if you aren’t sure you’d find something else pretty soon.

      I was in a similar situation with my now ex (I was the partner supporting the job-leaver) and it ended up being around 6 years (!) that he remained unemployed after that — during that time he applied for one job because his friend already worked there and he thought that might be nice…… he only eventually got a job after we had broken up and he had a new partner that he had to support (!) … I guess it had just become “comfortable” that he didn’t need to work, and blamed it on bad bosses, toxic situations etc because why get a new job when the same thing would probably end up happening and he’d have another bad boss or toxic situation? I’m not dismissing your toxic situation which I’m sure is real, but just saying this is a line of thinking to beware of.

      Even though your partner supports you leaving immediately — don’t underestimate the psychological burden this places on the working partner. Especially since there is now no “redundancy” in the system, in that when you’re both working, one person losing their job is a setback but if only one person is working, losing their job could be financial ruin.

      Do you have children together?

      1. Anon for this one*

        Btw, in my case we were legally married so I didn’t have the option to just ‘walk away’ even if I’d wanted to — I was legally on the hook for all our joint responsibilities. (This incident isn’t why he’s an ex husband though — in fact he initiated the break up!)

    10. Not So NewReader*

      If your partner supports you leaving now, then leave NOW.

      It’s not worth the medical and counseling bills we can rack up because we stayed. That’s the bottomline right there.

      Give your notice. Say what you need to say or NOT. And leave.

      I dunno, but it could be that your partner would prefer you just leave so you are not crying/angry/sleeping because of exhaustion all the time. In other words, your partner wants YOU back being your old self again. Please keep this in mind.

    11. CM*

      It’s a very personal decision and every situation is different.

      I was in a toxic job a few years ago that was hurting my mental health and I walked out one day by surprise (surprise to me, as well as everyone else). I just had a moment of clarity while I was using my lunch break to cry — I realized I had the power to make it so that this was the last time I used my lunch break to cry, and the relief I felt when I had that thought was powerful enough that I knew I had to go, no matter the risk.

      In other words, for me it was one of those “When the time has come, you KNOW” situations. Prior to that, I was checking in with myself every morning and asking, “Can you stand to go there today in order to get one more day’s pay?” and that system worked, too.

    12. Hapax Legomenon*

      I stayed much too long in a toxic job, but quitting without something lined up would mean having to give up my home and life in this country. So I stayed, while my job destroyed me mentally, and left me unable to job-hunt properly so that I could get out.
      One day, after yet another incident where work forced me to put my health on the backburner because management blamed their own failure on the employees, I had a meltdown in front of my boss. My workplace had me declared medically unfit for duty, and only by sheer luck and the kindness of a manager in another department was I able to get another position here. But honestly, when I was in limbo and didn’t know if I would be able to stay, I was more scared of being told I would have to go back to my old job than being told I would not have a job at all. Giving up everything I had built for myself here was not worth destroying myself every day I worked, and it only took a few days away from the job to see that.
      Toxic jobs have a tendency to run you ragged until you can’t see how far down you are. If you have Sunday Night Dread, if you spend a huge chunk of your free time recovering from work, if the thought of putting yourself together for an interview feels like Too Much because you’re already so exhausted/stressed…then it’s time to go. The sooner you quit, the easier your recovery, the sooner you will be able to present your best self in job interviews and on cover letters. And staying just to avoid a gap can lead to much more damaging circumstances than leaving early for your own health.

    13. Dream Jobbed*

      If you have a few months before you are going to quit, why not start putting 100% of your income in savings now and seeing if you truly can live off partner’s income. This way you’ll know how important it may or may not be to have a job lined up, and you’ll have a cushion if you need for an emergency.

  10. Anonsy*

    I have a very hands-off, conflict-avoidant manager and my annual performance review is coming up. I’ve had no real feedback on my performance in the year that she has managed me. Is it worth trying to have an informal meeting to ward off any surprises? Or will that come across ass too demanding/high maintenance/insecure/etc…? I’ve been keeping a list of things I’ve accomplished and concerns I would like to address, but I’m not sure if I would be doing myself a disservice by being proactive or not. Thoughts?

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      If she’s conflict avoidant, I think she’d welcome a framework you provide for discussion- it would make it clear that you were cooperative with any feedback. I think the accomplishments/goals for the next year structure might work for you.

    2. OhNo*

      I don’t know if this tactic would work for you, but it’s worked really well for me:

      Every year, when I start writing my self-evaluation for review season, I check in with my boss and ask if there’s anything specific she want me to include or highlight in my evaluation. Since the bosses above her also (supposedly) read everyone’s reviews, there’s usually at least one thing she asks me to include, so she has evidence to support her case for more hours/staff/money/training/etc.

      The questions I always ask are:
      – Any accomplishments you want me to highlight?
      – Any areas for improvement that you want me to note?
      – Any projects you want me to include for next year’s goals?

      I don’t know if those specific questions would get you the info you need, but they might at least start the conversation.

      1. Anonsy*

        I actually really like this approach! This still comes across respectful and positive instead of seeming like I’m just trying to mitigate anything negative. HR gives us forms to fill out with this sort of information before the reviews are scheduled, so it seems like a perfect way to frame it! I’ll try this and report back (likely in a few weeks)!

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Do you not have regular (e.g. every 2 weeks or monthly) “one to one” type meetings? If not, is there any way you can start them? (you’d probably need to present it to your boss as something you’d like to have for ‘xyz reasons’, I don’t think she would initiated it).

      I feel you as I’m direct myself and have had to deal with a very conflict-avoidant, indirect boss; it wasn’t easy! I often come off as too direct so softened my own comments to e.g. “I’m curious what you think about how the TTP Project went when we look back at it?” rather than something more direct. In my case I was genuinely unsure about my performance (I’m pretty confident about stuff in general and have a good sense of what I’m good at and bad at, so it wasn’t just imposter syndrome talking or anything) and wondered if the boss agreed that I didn’t think I was doing particularly well at aspect X of the job. Of course boss was still indirect in response to my question and I ended up rephrasing it directly with the answer that everything was fine. To this day I don’t know if that boss was ok with my performance or quietly seething!

      Do you get any sense of whether she is the type where “no news is good news” or does she have a history of not addressing things (situations in general, not just managing you) and then surprising people with it later?

      Do you think you are performing well, or are conscious of any ‘notable’ issues?

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      It just occurred to me, and it may be nothing, but — it’s worth thinking about what type of things are on your list of “concerns I would like to address” (it’s fine and good to have a list of accomplishments to reflect on).

      Generally you’d address “concerns” during the year as they come up organically, rather than storing them up (which presumably the manager will then get surprised by at the meeting). It may be I’ve not understood correctly what kind of concerns you are referring to, though, so feel free to disregard.

      It sounds like the kind of place where people don’t really communicate well in general, to be honest!

      1. Anonsy*

        Captain, I appreciate all these thoughts! (I work in academia… so it is definitely a place where people don’t communicate well.) For some framework, I could have written the letter posted today about being in a bait-and-switch position, only I thought I was taking a technical position and it turned out to be more of a free for all.

        I don’t foresee any notable issues, but my position is set up so that I’m primarily servicing people internally and my manager isn’t really involved so I’m worried the only feedback she hears/sees about my position is negative (ex: someone being upset because I told them the task they asked me to do isn’t part of my position, etc.) and wouldn’t have been addressed with me when the issue arose since it wasn’t a “big fire”. This may mean that she thought I was fine in handling it and had no concerns… or she’s just waiting until the focus is really on me and she wouldn’t have brought it up otherwise.

        My list of concerns is primarily in regard to clarifying her expectations for my position (since the bait and switch made my position poorly defined for myself and those I work with) and understand where she sits on the negative feedback and/or how she would like me to handle particular situations in the future. We’ve talked about some of these situations as they’ve come up, but most of them are due to my position being amorphous so responses on how to handle them have been inconsistent which leaves me feeling unstable. One of my talking points is to request regular meetings! I think having an avenue to bring these things up organically (as opposed to a cold email) and periodic check-ins would make everything so much easier.

        I really appreciate being able to unpack this and see another viewpoint before I have this meeting! Thank you so, so much!

  11. West*

    I’m 30 and have been going through breast cancer treatment for about 9 months now. I finished chemo in November and my hair is now just long enough that I feel comfortable without a scarf/hat. I have a coworker that keeps commenting on my hair. I know she’s trying to make me feel good about it, but every time I walk past her she comments on it. It makes me so self conscious because I’m now aware that every time people see me, they are noticing the side effects of my cancer treatment. I’ve asked her to stop as politely as possible but she doesn’t seem to grasp that her constant comments make me uncomfortable because she thinks she’s being kind. But it’s also weirdly aggressive and she will insult how my hair was before cancer, i.e. “West, don’t ever change your hair, you’re rocking it. You looked like a little girl with the long hair, now you look like an adult woman!” and grins like it’s the nicest thing she could possibly say to me.

    I cannot get her to understand that she is not making me feel good, and I don’t know how to be more clear that I don’t want her commenting on my appearance anymore besides “Please stop commenting on my hair. I don’t want to focus on that in the office, thanks.” because she seems to think if it’s a “compliment” it’s totally okay.

    1. CatPerson*

      Stop being so polite about it! State: Your comments about my hair make me uncomfortable. I have asked you to stop making those comments. Why are you disregarding my wishes and calling unwanted attention to me?”

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, I think if you’ve literally said ‘Please stop commenting on my hair. I don’t want to focus on that in the office, thanks’ and she’s *still* doing it, then you have every right to say ‘I really need you to stop mentioning my hair. It’s making me very uncomfortable, and I’ve asked you to stop doing it. Please stop.’

      1. West*

        I have, and that’s why I am so baffled. I have not tiptoed around it. I’ve said exactly my last paragraph to her, but the next day it’s like it never happened.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Oh! Then that’s bizarre. In that case, I’d escalate in tone: “I’ve asked you to stop commenting on my hair and told you it’s unwelcome. It’s incredibly weird that you keep doing it. What do I need to say to get you to stop?” And if that doesn’t work, I’m sure your HR dept would not be happy to learn someone is hassling someone in treatment for cancer.

          1. West*

            Thanks, I suppose I know that’s my next step. We just don’t have a real HR department so it’s a little awkward to get to the right person to help. The person who does HR stuff is one of the higher ups in the company so going to them always feels like such a huge escalation. But I will try again to make it especially clear before I go that route. Thanks for the advice.

            2. Donna*

              I think it’s extremely crappy that you are made to deal with this issue on top of what you’re already going through, so it has to stop so that you can concentrate on the big things. Of all the advice columns I follow, my favorite general advice has been to ‘use your words’, and escalate where necessary. It sounds like you’ve used your words, so it might be time to escalate the volume to call a larger audience into question. Saying what you said but saying it in a louder tone, and adding ‘Geez, I’ve already asked you to stop commenting on my hair. I can’t understand why you keep doing it….am I missing something?’ said so that others in the vicinity are called into witness might embarrass her enough that it won’t continue to occur.

              2. Just Another Manic Millie*

                “I cannot get her to understand that she is not making me feel good”

                Are you certain that she is trying to make you feel good? Because it sure doesn’t sound like it.

            3. Wing Leader*

              Definitely take it to the manager or whoever. Your coworker is not being kind. She may have started off that way initially, but now that you’ve repeatedly and plainly told her to stop and she hasn’t done so–she is no longer being kind.

        2. West*

          Sorry, I realized I phrased that last paragraph strangely by saying “besides saying this” because I meant I had already done that so what’s left to say after that.

    3. Jack Be Nimble*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this, this absolutely sucks!

      I think your proposed script is great — I’d say that to her, in those exact words, and give her a week to knock it off, at which point I’d speak to your manager or hers. Best of luck, here’s hoping she gets a clue!

    4. NaoNao*

      Maybe activate the “shame button”. Pause, look down and in a trembly whisper “Oh….I really miss my hair actually. It’s been a really hard adjustment getting used to this.” And then just stare at her with wide puppy eyes.

      But ultimately I think overall this might just be a friction of working in an office where people say/do thoughtless things.

      1. StlBlues*

        I wouldn’t do this. Depending on how she thinks, Hair-Complimenter might take this as a reason to be MORE complimentary! “Oh, what a delicate flower, so nervous about her short hair! I’ll need to be sure to tell her how beautiful it is EVERY TIME I SEE HER.”

        This is someone who didn’t respond to OP’s very direct request. I think the chance of her misinterpreting these “puppy dog eyes” to suit her own agenda is ENORMOUS.

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          I was also thinking about the shock value of breaking into unreasonable amounts of tears the next time just to mess with her. But clearly H-C is not good at picking up the right messages from even direct requests.

          I have, however, had success in redirecting people from discussion of my own hair (which used to be pretty damn long) by essentially mirroring the same statement/question back at them. “I think you should also not change your hair” or “Would you like it if I touch your hair too?” — it makes them flummoxed and I never hear about it again.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Just say that again and add, “I’ve asked you before to stop commenting on my hair and you keep doing it. What’s up with that?” Then listen to whatever she says and make some sort of “I hear you” noise, and then say, “thanks just the same, but I really don’t like it, so please cut it out.”

    6. LQ*

      “I understand and appricate that you’re trying to be kind, but right now the kindest thing you can do is stop commenting on my hair at all. Your continual comments are hurting me and I need you to stop.”

      2. SunnySideUp*

        …but leave out the first sentence.

        She’s getting some weird kind of pleasure by speaking condescendingly to you. She doesn’t sound kind or caring at all.

        2. BethRA*

          True, she is not being kind. But as an appeal to her desire to appear kind it might work or at least help.

          1. LQ*

            Yeah, it doesn’t matter if she is. The point of it is that you’re telling her that she is a kind of person that she wants to be, and triggering her brain to say, yes, yes I am kind, and then you’re telling her how to be that person, kind person stfu. It makes her more likely to do it.

            The point isn’t to be the most right or the most accurate. It’s to get her to stop talking about it. Appealing to that is more likely to get her to stop.

    7. Hallowflame*

      You have tried to be polite and it hasn’t worked. It’s time to be blunt.
      “Please stop commenting on my hair, I don’t appreciate it.”
      “Please don’t comment on my physical appearance, it makes me uncomfortable.”
      “Saying I looked like a little girl is demeaning and rude, please stop.”
      All of these should be said with a straight face and even, slightly cool tone.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      The problem is that she thinks she’s complimenting you and buoying you up and all that, and so your reasonable protests sound like modesty. I think you literally have to tell her that not only do you not want to talk about your hair, but that she is being UNKIND and HURTING YOUR FEELINGS. So, yeah, I like NaoNao’s suggestion. I’d say “Oh, I really miss my long hair, and this short hair makes me so sad every time I look at it. And every time you bring it up. That’s why I keep telling you to stop, and it’s really distressing that you won’t.”

    9. Probably Too Cynical*

      I am not so sure she is being kind. This strikes me as a bit of performance art – drawing attention to your cancer while being plausibly able to appear caring – particularly if others are around or can hear her when she does it. I would probably be very blunt about this next time she does it and say straight out something like “Why do you keep doing this when I have repeatedly asked you to stop?”

      I’m sorry younhave to deal with this, and hope your treatment has been successful. Sending positive vibes.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        That was my read on the situation as well, especially when OP said she has already told this person to stop commenting on her hair – who keeps doing something like this after someone calls you out on it?

    10. nep*

      Her take on it–that it’s a compliment–doesn’t define what it is ‘universally.’ To you, the person concerned, it’s not a compliment. Your language there sounds perfect for letting her know.
      I’m sorry for your sake that she hasn’t heeded your requests up to now.
      Best of health to you.

    11. june june hannah*

      I disagree with those saying you should play up how much you miss your hair to shame her. Speaking as a cancer patient who has lost my hair too, yes I miss it and it totally sucks – and I shouldn’t have to put that vulnerability on display at work to get someone to stop making inappropriate comments. Clear and direct speech should be enough and if it’s not, time to get leadership involved.

      Hang in there OP!

      1. West*

        I agreeeeeeeee, I don’t want to have to put on an emotional display, especially since that is part of why I want her to stop, because it upsets me and makes me emotional. I get where that comes from (it might feel satisfying for a moment to get her to feel as uncomfortable as she is making me) but my ultimate goal is just to get the comments to stop, not to return the feeling she is giving me.

        I hope you are doing so well with your cancer stuff too. We got this!

    12. Bananatiel*

      I’m an ovarian cancer survivor and was diagnosed in my late 20’s– some people are SO BAD at dealing with the knowledge that someone has had/has cancer. I don’t have any new advice beyond what others have said but know that all the survivors out there have dealt with something like this– it’s just another crummy rite of passage. My boss was obsessed with my growing hair, I ended up wearing wigs for way longer than I would have just to avoid her reaching out and touching my scalp/hair. I had some pretty visceral reactions to her doing it and told her to stop in increasingly more assertive ways but in the end, it was just easier to keep it covered and tell her I just liked the look of the wig.

      1. West*

        Omggggg I don’t know what I would do if a coworker, or boss! tried to touch my scalp/hair at the office! I’m so sorry she did that to you! I agree, I think part of my coworker’s vocalization about my hair is that she thinks she’s helping by cheering me on in some way. But I don’t need or want that kind of support in the office, I just want her to submit her paperwork properly, that’s how she can make my life better.
        I hope you’re doing well now after treatment and that no one has touched your head without your permission since your boss (!!!)

      2. KoiFeeder*

        There is no part of that story that does not make me want to scream in horror at what you had to go through. I would’ve ended up hitting her by reflex.

    13. rageismycaffeine*

      I think we’ve run into each other in the comments here before (fellow young breast cancer survivor). You’ve gotten really good advice from others so I just want to say: congratulations on finishing chemo. Sending you love and light for your survivorship journey.

      1. West*

        I believe we have as well! Thank you so much. I am doing so much better since the last time I posted something about cancer in the comments a few months ago. I had my last reconstruction surgery last week (and despite hair commenting coworker, no one has made me uncomfortable about my reconstruction surgeries, which is a minor miracle since it’s so personal but obvious when you’re going through those procedures) and I see my oncologist for my first appointment since finishing treatment in the fall next week! I hope you’re doing well also.

    14. 867-5309*

      First, sorry you’re dealing with this.

      Second, for what’s worth: I might notice someone hair as they’re going through chemo and think about it for one second and then it leaves my mind. So while this person is misguided (and at this point rude, since you’ve talked to her), just know that most people spend most of their time thinking about themselves and aren’t thinking about your hair or what it means.

      I mention this because of this line, “I’m now aware that every time people see me, they are noticing the side effects of my cancer treatment”

    16. KoiFeeder*

      I am just completely mind-boggled by the fact that she’d consider this anything vaguely approaching appropriate.

    17. Anon Woman with Breast Cancer*

      Congrats on finishing chemo, and on your hair growing back. I think you have received a lot of good advice here from Alison and others, so I will just send you a wish for continued good progress and better health from here on out! And good for you for being strong and working thru this!

    18. Not So NewReader*

      I’d skip getting her to understand that you do not feel complimented. It seems to be enough to do to get her to just stop saying it.

      You: I have asked you to stop talking about my hair. Yet you keep talking about my hair after I have told you to stop. Why are you still talking about my hair?

      Her: I am only trying to compliment you.

      You: A compliment is said once and then it is over. Repeatedly complimenting someone after they have asked you to stop is rude. I need you to stop talking about my hair. If you can’t do that, I will have to talk with [boss].
      So this right now is that very last time we EVER talk about my hair, right?

      Notice how each sentence is a variation on the word NO. Don’t get pulled down into the weeds discussing compliments, her motivation, or any other mumbling thing she comes up with. Stay on point. If she repeats “I am only complimenting you”, then just say, “There you go again talking about my hair. My hair is closed topic. I am not going to talk about my hair nor am I going to talk about you complimenting my hair. This brings us back to will you agree that this is the last time we ever discuss my hair?”

      If she starts in with but-but-but, immediately turn and go to the boss. Enough is enough.

      I always say, “Don’t turn yourself into someone who has to have a concrete block dropped on their head in order for others to get their points across.” Go drop the proverbial concrete block. Don’t waste your time and energy any more.

    20. Sleve McDichael*

      I don’t have much advice other than to say even without the chemo context, being rude about your previous style choices is tremendously insulting. Especially as she has no idea whether you intend to return to that look one day. What a twit.

      I’m sure you wouldn’t but it’s funny to imagine you saying to her one day ‘Don’t ever go back to the blouse you wore on Friday, you looked so frumpy! You look so much better today in blue, like a professional instead of a fishwife. Good on you for learning how to style properly!’.

  12. Amy Sly*

    Headhunter Query

    I was approached this week by what seemed to be a genuine headhunter (as opposed to direct sales frontmen). On the one hand, I’m feeling rather flattered and want to assume that he approached me because I would be competitive for this role that would be a $15K/yr raise. On the other, I’m wary of being scammed and have generally had such a miserable time job searching that I find it hard to believe something this nice would just fall in my lap.

    Anyone have any good experiences with headhunters? I have a phone interview with him shortly; any probing questions I should ask to verify this isn’t just a contacts hunt?

      1. Stormy Weather*

        +1000

        One of my red flags is if they ask for a resume in Word. This means they are going to change it and they won’t ask for your approval first. After having someone flat-out lie about my qualifications to get me an interview, I only send my resume in PDF.

        Ask what stood out to him on your resume. This should indicate he’s actually read it and not just playing Buzzword Bingo.

    2. Jack Be Nimble*

      I’ve worked sporadically with headhunters but more intensely and directly with staffing agencies. I think you’re safe to go ahead, until and unless they start throwing down red flags. You can move ahead and withdraw from consideration if they start being anything less than professional.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Agreed. If they tell you to lie or embellish, then you know they are a fraud. But even crappy headhunters can still make connections to a good employer. Just consider them a middleman and evaluate the job and the employer with the same scrutiny you normally would.

    3. Nicki Name*

      I’ve had plenty of good experiences with them, but that’s because headhunting is extremely common in my industry. If they aren’t commonly used in yours, then I guess I’d be a little wary.

      Asking about the company the job is at and what the headhunter knows about their culture etc. would be one way to get a better idea if they’re genuine.

      1. Amy Sly*

        They may well be common in my field — I’m only just now getting enough experience that I’m eligible for more than entry-level work. Nobody headhunts for freshly graduated bottom-of-the-class-at-a-third-tier-law-school folks for JD preferred jobs, after all.

        And after the phone interview, this does seem like a job I would be competitive for.

    4. Leela*

      Former recruiter here, both internally and at a 3rd party agency, the answer is: it’s really hard to say without knowing specifics! Something nice can just fall into your lap for sure, we’re on the lookout for someone who’s a good match for the roles we get sent so it probably would just fall into your lap if your resume looked like a good fit and was up on indeed or linkedin or some other job search site.

      Now about getting scammed? Well that depends on so many factors. I mean, recruiters can and sometimes do lie. Sometimes people think recruiters are lying because the company wound up changing something but the recruiter is all you see. Loads of recruiters are just people trying to do their jobs well and wouldn’t lie at all. Whether a recruiter will lie or not, they might have a manager trying to force them to. It’s just too hard to say from the outside. I would say that it’s worth looking up this company on Glassdoor at least, even if it’s a 3rd party recruiter, if you’re getting lots of red flags from their internal business they aren’t going to be doing right by you in your job search for whatever company they send you to either. But there’s no reason to think outright that this is probably a scam. Just keep an eye out for red flags (it’s actually pretty common for recruiters to adjust your resume, less for lying and more because we’ve all experienced sending someone’s resume with their info forward and then they magically “find” you a few ours later and we get cut out of the recruiting fee, even though they couldn’t “find” you until we’d sent you forward, so don’t be wary of that necessarily but yes, sometimes recruiters do change around your resume without permission leaving you hold the bag too. Again, it’s just way too hard without knowing any specifics to say whether this place will do that, or if them asking for a word version of your resume will mean that).

  13. Snarkus Aurelius*

    Something or nothing?

    I work with a man my age who is above me but not my boss. We get along very well, but I’ve been wondering about a couple of things that have happened in the past few months:

    He has winked at me a couple of times. It was quick and part of a greeting.

    Very rarely but he touches my forearm when he makes a point. He has only done this when we’re alone.

    He has done a very quick up and down look when I’ve walked into a room. As in less than a second.

    I’m sure all of this is nothing, but I’m still scratching my head?

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      Ugh, that’s the worst part of these kinds of minor transgressions, it leaves you wondering whether you’re seeing a pattern that isn’t there. My read is that the man is just a low-level lech who thinks the two of you have fun, flirty banter, but it’s definitely worth keeping a close eye on. If he steps up any of those behaviors or starts in on a new one (too-friendly after hours texts, for example) I’d consider looping in HR/your own manager.

      I think he’s approaching a threshold but not quite there yet.

      1. valentine*

        I’d consider looping in HR/your own manager.
        Yes. Any trust with either?

        Go with your gut. What rings the Klaxon for me is the touching only happens when you’re alone. *shudder*

    2. CatPerson*

      It seems like he is a creep, and he wants you know this without being obvious about it to others. Try not to be alone with him. Ask him not to touch you.

    3. NaoNao*

      The wink and the look up and down likely don’t mean much by themselves, as I’ve “scanned” many people before that I’m very much not interested in. But all three together could mean he’s a naturally touchy, flirty person, it could just be learned behavior (like calling your teacher “mom”)—if he’s married or partnered maybe he’s just used to relating to people that way, or it could be something. The only thing I’d address is the arm touch, if it makes you uncomfortable I’d play it off with a light joke at first “Oh Mark, personal space! You know I love mine!” and then see how he reacts.

    4. Camellia*

      These are NOT nothing. They are Things That Should Not Be Done.

      Here’s what you do about it:

      He winks. You say, “OH MY GOODNESS are you all right? Is there something wrong with your eye? I saw it twitch, it looked so weird, hope everything is okay!”

      Any kind of touch. Pull away and say, “Don’t touch me,” in a perfectly calm voice. Ignore any protests or anything he says. And don’t soften it by saying ‘please’. If he continues to find opportunities to touch you, even if he is making it seem accidental, then you start fixing him with your Grim Look while you repeat “Don’t touch me.” That should stop most men. If not, you have a larger issue; come back for more advice.

      Up and down look. Be prepared when you know he will be in the room as you go in and have A Look on your face – my favorite is one raised eyebrow. Then when the up and down look is completed and he focuses on your face, that Look is waiting for him, and it tells him that you know exactly what he did and that you did not appreciate it. That usually stops this behavior, but as noted above, if not, come back for more advice.

      1. Camellia*

        All of the above remarks appeared while I was typing up my response and I feel like I need to say this – these are not ‘nothing’ behaviors, the threshold has already been crossed, no one winks accidentally, and I don’t care if you are a ‘touchy flirty’ person, that behavior does not belong in an office and saying it like that once again says that men just can’t help themselves, can’t control themselves, oh well boys will be boys, and all the other things we are conditioned to say/do/repeat to excuse this type of behavior.

        We, and they, need to stop it.

        1. Jack Be Nimble*

          I’d really love for you to indicate where any of the above commenters, excused the behavior, said that the behavior was acceptable for the workplace, or where we indicated that “that men just can’t help themselves, can’t control themselves, oh well boys will be boys.”

          Absolutely, in a perfect world, you would be able to bring this kind of thing directly to HR or directly to your manager, be taken seriously, and have the perpetrator cut it out. Unfortunately, we don’t live in a perfect world.

          Whenever anyone reports harassment, they have to consider the likely reaction and the likely cost of speaking up (because there always is a cost of speaking up). I’ve experienced a fair amount of workplace harassment related to both my gender, gender presentation, and sexuality, and I really rankle at the suggestion that I’m somehow culpable because I acknowledged that, for most workplaces, the behaviors Snarkus described wouldn’t cross the threshold of report-worthiness.

          The culture surrounding sexual harassment in the workplace sucks — that goes without saying! But the people who chose not to make reports out of fear of reprisal aren’t responsible for the culture. Acknowledging that you risk blowback when you report sexual harassment isn’t responsible for the culture.

          1. Kat in VA*

            I don’t believe Camellia was referring to any specific commenters here on AAM, but more the general attitude of “boys will be boys” or “flirty attitudes” that is pervasive in the workplace – and cause people who complain about those behaviors are labeled as troublemakers, dramamongers, and the like.

    5. Purt's Peas*

      Winking–extremely weird but some people are winkers. It’s very strange. This I think is likely a bizarre greeting habit and no one’s told him that it stinks. Probably a similar weird vibe to the rest of it but I’ve met several winkers in my day and it’s sort of…gives a vibe but is independently weird.

      The up-and-downs and the touching, yes, I think that your gut is probably correct.

      1. CL Cox*

        I have never known people to wink in an office setting unless there is a joke going on. In what other context would that even be OK?

        1. Prairie*

          In my experience it’s usually older men who do this to young female employees to establish warmth. This frequently happened when I was at a nonprofit where the board was mostly old white men. They were only onsite a couple times a year and it seemed like the winking was a substitute for actually building rapport. A wink would either be part of their greeting or would accompany some positive feedback like “Great job at the event.”
          I wouldn’t say it’s “ok”; it’s sexist. They weren’t winking at my male colleagues. But it was ok in the sense that I could just roll my eyes; it wasn’t like they were being predatory.

          1. Fikly*

            How do you know they weren’t being predatory?

            Honest question. Maybe the behavior didn’t escalate toward you. Do you know it didn’t escalate toward any other women in their lives?

            Dismissing behavior like this can be dangerous, because it’s often just step one, and if it’s not called out, the behavior continues to get worse.

            2. Prairie*

              Ok if it’s unclear: I am answering the question about when do people wink in the workplace outside of joking. I am not talking about touching or looking people up and down. My direct reply to snarkus was that she’s uncomfortable so it is a problem.
              I know they were not being predatory because they were not exploiting or oppressing me. They were acknowledging my existence or work and then walking away.
              “Maybe the behavior didn’t escalate toward you” is so strange because in your framework winking is violent. In my framework an escalation of a wink would be a high five or a thank you note.

              1. Fikly*

                But…you cannot know your interpretation of their behavior reflects their intention. How do you know their intention wasn’t predatory?

                A wink would only escalate to a high five if the wink was non-sexual, and there’s no way to know that here. Again, your framework doesn’t really apply/isn’t relevant, because the action is not coming from you. It’s the framework of the person that is doing the action that applies.

                You are sort of making the argument that something isn’t offensive/problematic because you don’t find it offensive/problematic. But that’s not how it’s determined whether or not things are offensive or not. Someone being a member of a minority group doesn’t mean they speak for all members of that minority.

                1. Prairie*

                  No I’m absolutely not making that claim about what makes something offensive. ( Hence my comment to snarkus that her discomfort aka the impact on her means his actions are a problem.)
                  My only claim is that many workplace winks are a lazy way to express warmth. Have a nice weekend.

                2. Fikly*

                  But you have no basis for the claim that workplace winks are a lazy way to express warmth. That’s where I’m having an issue.

                3. Avasarala*

                  Fikly, if Prairie didn’t find the winking predatory, then let’s take them at their word. There is no need to dig for the “secret offense” hidden in their story. They are not speaking for all women and don’t need to. They weren’t dismissing it, they were rolling their eyes and choosing not to address it. That is a valid, safe choice for them.

                  Winks can absolutely be a way to express warmth, one of my bosses (female) does it frequently. But this is not one wink in isolation, it’s the wider context that matters–winking and walking away, or winking and looking you up and down.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

          Side note: I have 3 cats, and one of them does wink at me (yes, with one eye) semi-frequently. I’m not creeped out by winking in general but I do a double take when the cat does it!

          1. Tidewater 4-1009*

            Are you sure it’s not because of something in his eye, or an allergy or something like that?

    6. Woozles*

      I hope this guy doesn’t mean anything by any of this! But I’d encourage you to remember that women are socialized to explain away things that make us uncomfortable rather than listen to our intuition. If any of this is sending red flags, please listen to them!

      1. Fikly*

        Snarkus Aurelius is under no obligation to tell him if they are interested or not. Telling a guy you are not interested can result in bad consequences.

        His behavior is not ok, regardless of their interest. That’s all he needs to know.

        1. Camellia*

          This is correct. That merely opens the door to the ‘what, I’m not interested in you, who are you to think that, wow, really’ response.

          1. voyager1*

            Camellia,

            If it stops the behavior, what’s wrong with that.

            Fikly,
            Seriously I get a more flirty vibe then predator vibe. The winking just seems so weird and awkward. The touching is rare by the poster’s own admission. They are same age so it isn’t the old guy/young woman dynamic. He isn’t her boss either. And if she is interested, what is wrong what?

            Seriously this is just a “Use Your Words” moment. If the attention is unwelcome, just tell the guy you would prefer not to winked at or touched.

            1. Fikly*

              You are not observing the behavior, thus you cannot accurately evaluate the vibe at all.

              Her interest is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the behavior is unwelcome.

              It is indeed a use your words moment. But you are suggesting the wrong words. The words to use are, “This is inappropriate, you need to stop.” Do not bring interest into it at all.

              And it’s wrong because, as Camellia pointed out, it is unlikely to stop the behavior because saying you need to stop because x opens the door to a debate about x. You need to stop, full stop, is not open to debate.

              Also, it doesn’t matter how rare the touch is. What matters is the touch is unwelcome. Are you seriously arguing that it’s ok to harass people as long as it’s only occasional?

              1. voyager1*

                Fikly,
                Can you make a point without it being a straw man?

                I never wrote it was okay to harass people. I wrote that the vibe I got was that he is flirting. Of course I was not there and neither were you. A reasonable person would know I was referring to the vibe of Snarkus wrote. I also wrote that if Snarkus doesn’t want to be touched or winked at to tell him. I also wrote if she is interested in something more with the guy to say so.

                That is it Fikly. That is my viewpoint on this. I don’t understand how that is hard for you. You seem to project a lot in the comments on here since you arrived. Sometimes things are just what people write, there isn’t some hidden meaning. The hidden meanings are all in your head.

                1. Fikly*

                  I’m amused that you are claiming to understand a vibe, but then complaining that hidden meanings are all in my head. What else is a vibe but a hidden meaning?

                  Also, you wrote, “If you are not interested, just tell him.” You’ve gotten multiple comments on why that is dangerous. Why is this a confusing concept for you?

                  It’s patronizing to try undercut someone’s point by saying they are unreasonable, rather than actually addressing the point, by the way.

                2. Barb*

                  Yeah, I don’t understand how always assuming the worst possible interpretation is helpful. And if telling someone you’re not interested is so dangerous, I would think that escalating the situation by assuming the worst would really be dangerous. Most likely, you’d just be upping the drama for no reason by interpreting everything so strongly. But I guess that’s life on the internet!

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      The up/down look alone could be simply evaluating a junior employee’s professional appearance. It’s not uncommon in departments that have customer contact, companies with strict dress codes, and when there’s a promotion opportunity coming up. (That whole “dress for the job you want to have next” thing, right?)
      But my creep-o-meter went off when you said “He has only done this when we’re alone”. Touching you when alone and winking at you are worth addressing, but I’ll defer to the others for scripts.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I get the up-and-down at work fairly often – but generally from older men (+60) who truly seem to be unconscious of it. It’s never exaggerated or made intentionally obvious. I give them a pass. I probably shouldn’t, but honestly, it’s something I’m used to.*

        (*I feel I need to do the typical “Not that I’m saying I’m a supermodel or anything…” disclaimer dance in here. I’m just making the point that I’m busty and hourglass shaped and if I’m wearing something like a wrap dress, my body is visibly…there and I truly believe they do it without thinking)

    9. Policy wonk*

      If he only touches your arm when you are alone, he knows it’s wrong. Have you seen him wink at or do the scan to others? If not, ditto. Trust yourself, tell him to cut it out, document the day you told him, and exactly what you said. And if it continues, continue to document. You might also ask similarly situated colleagues if they have had a similar experience, if it escalated to worse behavior, or if he’s just a low-level creep. And take steps accordingly – particularly not being alone with him, but also calling him out where possible (love the “do you have something in your eye? approach.)

        1. Tidewater 4-1009*

          I think what Policy Wonk is getting at is OP would know whether the guy has a pattern of behaving like this and if so, maybe get feedback on how to handle it. And establish the pattern to take to management/HR.

    10. Prairie*

      You’re uncomfortable so it is “something.” If you don’t want to be touched give a little flinch when it happens and tell him you have a personal bubble. If he respects that, you are all set. If he doesn’t respect it, you have some proof that your gut feeling was right.
      Also, some older men are winkers. It’s sexist/patronizing but there’s a good chance it’s not meant to be flirty.

      1. Camellia*

        DO. NOT. FLINCH. Do not show signs of weakness in these situations. That depends on the man having the ability to be concerned that he scared you. That does not really apply in these situations. Present a strong, calm, demeanor, as I outlined above. That covers all scenarios, whether the man is one who would be concerned, embarrassed, or most especially would have his predatory instincts triggered/gratified by ‘fearful’ behavior.

        2. tangerineRose*

          Flinching and pulling away has worked well for me (automatic response on my part), but it probably depends on the situation.

    12. TinyRaptor*

      Personally, I’d say this is something, and inappropriate, but that’s really for you to decide. Some questions that might help you figure this out:

      How do his actions make you feel?

      Does he do this with everyone? With just a certain demographic? Does he do this to his bosses/equals?

      Does he do this around anyone? No one? Only his subordinates or a certain demographic?

      How does he react to rejection? Soft nos (walking away/removing your arm from reach)? Hard nos (“don’t touch me”)?

      How do other people in your demographic talk about him and his behavior? Is he “known” for things, jokingly or otherwise?

      Assuming this really is benignly motivated, what’s the worst that could happen by telling him to stop? What’s the best? What’s the most likely/practical, given what you know about this guy and your workplace?

      Hope this helps. I’m about to push back at my own workplace arm toucher this quarter and these questions helped me get my head on straight enough to do so.

    13. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      It sounds like a possible ‘something’ to me.

      Do you want it to be ‘something’ or does it make you uncomfortable? Unclear from your post and although I recognise your name from previous threads I can’t remember if you’ve said anything about your personal situation, sorry.

    14. Maya Elena*

      I’d treat as nothing. “He brushed my arm twice and looked at me wrong and winked at me!” it seems a step above thought police. Even if these are micro-expressions that are inherently male… Are we supposed to be genderless soulless automatons at work? And do these things actually hurt you or threaten you in any way? This isn’t someone pushing their hips up at you, propositioning you, slapping your bra strap, cornering you in a dark room. This is functionally equivalent to you flipping your hair and giggling or doing other feminine micro-gestures.
      I’d of course keep myself safe and report anything that is substantial but what you’d described isn’t that.

    15. Hapax Legomenon*

      Do you have a reason to not trust your feelings on the subject? Do you have a prior instance of sexual/romantic boundaries being crossed that might cloud your judgment, or missing cues that others pointed out were signs of a problem in this area, or a lack of experience with (healthy) workplace norms?
      In the absence of a reason NOT to trust your gut, trust your gut. None of those things sound troubling to me on their own, and even as a pattern would not necessarily be troubling depending on the person. BUT…your gut is telling you this is something. Listen to it. You can take at least the small steps that can make you feel better. Make excuses not to be alone with him so often, or have a phone call/meeting scheduled when you have to meet with him so you know you can get away. You don’t have to treat it like a big thing if you don’t feel like it merits that, but you don’t have to convince yourself it’s nothing just because on paper it looks like it might be nothing.

    16. Traveling Teacher*

      Go with your gut! Also, if it makes you feel creeped on, then it’s creepy. BUT!

      On the outside chance: Have you also considered that he might be gay/non-binary I have two dear gay friends who would definitely wink and touch a forearm in an “Oh honey, I KNOW!” sort of way. If that’s the feeling you get, I would mentally file this away.

      If you feel creeped on, though, then definitely start saying, really neutrally, “Don’t touch me please.” In fact, you can always say, “Don’t touch me” or “I’m not a touchy-person, thanks!”

    17. Close Bracket*

      This is not nothing. I don’t think he is flirting; I think he is checking you out, which is creepy and uncomfortable. The only one you can really address is the touching. Just back away, smile gently, and say, “I really hate people touching me.” Whatever he says in response, just keep on the “I hate people touching me” refrain.

      Him: “I didn’t mean anything by it!”

      You: “Ok, I hate people touching me.”

    18. AnonAnon*

      I had something very similar happen to me at work.
      I am a woman.
      I had different things happen to me but all small and seemed unrelated and not worthy of reporting. My big dilemma was this was happening to me at the height of the MeToo movement and I thought my company would not take me seriously. Then I had 1 event that made me blow a gasket and take it to our Ombudsman. Once he started commenting on my clothes (he liked when I wore dresses), I went to the Ombudsman.

      Everyone’s threshold is different for stuff like this. But it was a series of things over a year that started to add up in my mind.

      I was glad I reported him because apparently I was not the only one to report him and I guess they were waiting for the right piece of evidence to do something. I had that evidence. He had used a company system to find out who I was (we didn’t work together but we saw each other in passing), look up my name, track me down on Social Media and send me private messages. I had screenshots of everything because he immediately deleted his account shortly after. The head of security was able to look at audit trails in the work systems he used and see what/who he was looking up. My fear was he had access to my home address based on the role he had and that scared me. A car parked outside my house at 3am one night (I was up sick) and I was terrified. The company did an investigation over a couple days and he was immediately removed from the company. They backed me 100% and said they found or had evidence to “convict” him so to speak but couldn’t tell me the details.

      Definitely trust your gut if this gets weirder. OR give your manager a heads up now.

  14. Paralegal Part Deux*

    Y’all, I’m not sure what to do. My boss just wrote his son’s resume, and it’s terrible. It even has a section that lists his parents and siblings jobs. I mean, it’s just terrible. I don’t know if I should say something to him about it or not. He asked me to proofread it, but he didn’t tell me I could make significant changes, though.

    Any advice? Or just let him crash and burn?

    1. Miss May*

      Did he ask for your input? If he didn’t, I’d say, “not my monkeys, not my circus.”

      Also, lets pray to whatever resume deity out there that the son googles “good resumes” and sees that your FAMILYS jobs are not part of them.

    2. Blueberry*

      Will your boss get mad if you make any suggestions? Will he hold onto that anger? Will he judge your job performance by that anger?

      Unless you can trust your boss to be completely reasonable and non-retaliatory about it (and people who are otherwise reasonable can be unreasonable about family), I would not say anything. After all, when my mother wrote a resume for me I thanked her and round-filed it, so for all you know the son might have the sense to do the same.

      1. Paralegal Part Deux*

        If you can believe it, his son’s version was actually as bad or worse. I guess I’ll just sit back and watch this crash and burn, because I don’t think my boss would get upset but you never know with people.

        2. Tidewater 4-1009*

          I agree. Completely different situation, but I thought my former boss was the type who would never do a certain thing – and he did do it.
          Now I keep anything potentially unsafe to myself, because you really never know for sure.

    3. Jack Be Nimble*

      Hopefully Dad is just overbearing, and the kid wrote his own resume that he’ll use to apply places. If not — natural selection at work.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Or son wrote a great resume and dad, being the hotshot boss-man that he is (insert eyeroll here), decided he knows better and its a “who you know, not what you know” situation so these recruiters are going to be super impressed that dad is an exec at X company and bro just started at the prosecutors office and THAT is what is going to get son a job. Not silly little things like education, experience, and knowledge of professional norms!

    4. NowWhat?456*

      I cringed so hard at this…

      How old is his son? If he’s a teenager I can understand trying to fill in the space, but anything over the age of 17 this is highly inappropriate.

      If you have a good relationship where he accepts feedback, definitely clue him in and let him know that its not the norm and it may diminish his son’s chances at a job.

      If you don’t have a good relationship or want to lead the horse to water so he figures it out on his own, maybe phrase it as asking him to refer you to examples similar? “Hey I’m reviewing it, but in my experience I’ve really only seen resumes that have the applicant’s work info on it. Could you show me other examples with the family listings, just so I have something to compare it to? I want to make sure Boss Jr. stands out among the crowd while still staying in line with industry standards.”

      I’ve done the latter many a time (especially with older men who assume the way they are doing something is just how it’s done) and a lot of the time they will figure it out on their own once they’re asked to provide examples of other people doing the same.

      1. Paralegal Part Deux*

        My boss’s wife calls OWMS – old white male syndrome – and, basically, they get pissy if things aren’t done their way. I may actually mention AAM to my boss’s wife. She’d be the most open, I’d think, and more likely to fix it. Well, make the son fix it.

        I mean, dang, dude is 23. He’s past old enough to do this on his own.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Here’s a thought — Alison posted a resume step-by-step this week. Could you send a simple typo-check to the boss and then separately send the son a link to Tuesday’s post?
          Although on second thought probably not because he might eventually find this post and your comments weren’t meant to be read by him.

    5. Lora*

      I guess, why did he do this? Is the son a teenager or something, does he have nobody else to help him on this point?

      My mother once tried to write my resume when she felt that I wasn’t job hunting “right”. I am in a STEM field. She was in the direct opposite of a STEM field. It was…well, she thinks I dissect frogs all day, as near as I can tell. She then printed it out on very fancy Resume Paper (remember that??) with matching envelopes, with the idea that I would actually cold-call companies, so they might be impressed with my Gumption. I hope she didn’t proudly show this around her workplace, but she very well might have.

      I guess I would ask boss for clarification, is he looking for literal proofreading or did he want other feedback?

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I had exactly this conversation with someone who recently asked me to proofread. The answer was “sure, go ahead” … so I did.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Ugggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

        I don’t even want my family to tell me about job ads they see; they’re always something I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot-pole, or they misinterpret them (ex. a news editor is not the same thing as a copy editor). And stop telling me to drive for Uber. I had to get firm with someone on that.

    6. LCH*

      Can you say resumes aren’t your forte but here is a great resource and send him to AAM’s discussions of resumes?

      1. Paralegal Part Deux*

        This might actually work. He needs some serious help, and I just can’t get over how bad the revised resume was when I saw it.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You can expand on how it isn’t your forte and it’s such a specialty field of writing that you don’t want to come off as giving a professional opinion, when you are clearly not an expert resume writer.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      There’s nothing to be done here (for the reasons other commenters already posted e.g. natural selection).

      If you can’t get out of it altogether (why is a lawyer (I infer) asking a paralegal to review his son’s resume? That isn’t a legit work task?)

      I would take the instruction literally and proofread it for mispellings etc only. Don’t get involved!

      If you give your opinion it can only work out one of two ways really. 1) the boss doesn’t want to hear what you have to say, is convinced he’s right, and it will possibly sour the working relationship in future. or 2) the boss sees that you are right, and suddenly as well as Paralegal your unofficial title becomes ‘Otherpeoplespaperwork Reviewer and Resume Expert’.

      In your position (but I’m a bit of a devil’s advocate, mischevious type) I might have a bit of fun with the boss starting with e.g. “oh this looks a lot different than my resume… is this how we have to do them now?” and follow on as you see fit.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        Btw, I hope it isn’t somehow being charged to a client as a fee earning activity….

      2. Marthooh*

        Excellent advice. “Not my circus, not my monkeys, and if it were my circus I still wouldn’t want to deal with these critters.”

  15. Extra Income Needed*

    Toying with the idea of getting a second job. Prefer something low-key that won’t lead to burnout with my other workload. Any suggestions on Saturday-only or flexible online jobs?

    I have worked at American Eagle, TJ Maxx, and Old Navy before, so I know it’s hit-or-miss with specific schedules in retail. You usually need to establish yourself as an employee first before you can make demands on schedules. I’m also sick of selling credit cards.

    1. JanetM*

      I have a friend who has picked up two part-time jobs:

      1. “I love getting to take care of puppies!” — I didn’t ask further, but I’m guessing she’s working for a dog rescue or the local humane society.

      2. As a concessionaire at the university’s sports and cultural events.

      I don’t know if either of those would appeal to you.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Puppy tangent: My daughter’s got her eye on the kennel up the road for when she’s old enough to get a job… she says she’s willing to clean a lot of cages to get to supervise doggie day care.

            1. valentine*

              she says she’s willing to clean a lot of cages to get to supervise doggie day care.
              This is a great attitude. I hope it works out for her. Is she old enough for pet care for your neighbors?

      3. OhNo*

        Dog walking or pet-sitting might also be possibilities for taking care of puppies. A friend of mine does pet-sitting, which is usually a weekend gig, and she loves getting to play with the pups!

    2. Minimal Pear*

      I teach English online to kids in China, and with the time difference, the classes are in the early morning and late evening. They are cracking down more on unqualified teachers, so you need a degree in teaching or a certification through an English-teaching program, but some of the programs can be done pretty quickly and cheaply online. Let me know if you want more info!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Maybe it’s because I live in a college town, where retailers are used to part-time employees with inflexible schedules, but I (and my husband and my kid) have never had any problem getting a specific schedule.

      2. RetailRecruiter*

        Several of my coworkers and I have worked farmer’s markets. It’s fun, it’s usually consistently Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon depending on the schedule in your area. You can often get free/discounted food and you will learn a lot about cooking and produce just from talking to folks. Generally the best way to get these jobs is to show up to the markets regularly and ask around.

    6. KR*

      Dog walking/pet sitting is nice and pretty flexible. You can do it in your own (and your customers) schedule. My dad worked the admission booth at a local state park once and he said it was a great job. He got paid more than the average retail cashier because it was a state job but it was very lax – the people were friendly because they were going to the state park to have fun, he could read or watch movies on his laptop when he didn’t have customers, ect. Worth looking into your local State/National Parks or Parks/Rec Department for openings!

    7. Disco Janet*

      A lot of breweries and wineries around here hire people to expo – show up to liquor stores and give out free samples. I have a few friends who do it and enjoy it.

    8. Double A*

      The census is hiring right now and I schedules a meant to fit around people’s lives and other jobs. It would be temporary, which could be good if you hate it but bad if you’re looking for something longer-term. I have thought about doing it but it’s probably not right for my family right now.

    9. Joie*

      Car dealerships! Night / Weekend reception are usually warm body jobs and are excellent second jobs.

      I read books, and watch movies with 1 headphone in, and do what ever my heart desires as long as I answer the phones and do what random mindless tasks are assigned to me – last night I highlighted the same lines on 300 pieces of paper because it was printed in b&w not colour so the highlight didn’t show up type mindless tasks, sometimes I’m asked to cut paper with the paper cutter to a certain line that’s printed on a page. The night time / weekend shifts are usually very easy work. I field on average 4-5 calls per shift and most of it is transferring it out to sales and under 30 seconds of interaction per call.

      (Daytime is a lot more work but night time tends to much easier as the areas of support are all closed/gone for the day)

    10. Extroverted Bean Counter*

      Do you have a college degree? Tutoring centers (the ones that specialize in ACT/SAT prep) are usually more than happy to have people who only want to work 1-2 days a week. They usually require a Bachelor’s and for you to do well on a practice SAT or ACT, but they’re usually pretty decent money and not terribly stressful.

  16. Jack Be Nimble*

    I’m pretty unhappy in my current position, but I have a medical procedure coming up within the next couple months, so I can’t afford to change insurance at the moment. There’s a possibility I’ll be promoted into a newly created role that closely aligns with my interests and skills in about six months, but it’s not guaranteed. Do I job search during my medical leave, or wait to do it until after I hear something definitive about the new position?

    My unhappiness stems largely from my immediate supervisor and the drudgery of my work. Both things would change if I got the promotion, but changing roles would (hopefully) mean a better supervisor but not a change in workload. I’m leaning toward sticking it out another year and committing to a search then, but once a month, something happens that feels pretty intolerable and would trigger a job search if I weren’t caught in the insurance net.

    What would you do in my position?

    1. Blueberry*

      Make sure you don’t overload your medical leave, since it is a time for healing, but in your position I’d use the leave time to search, at least as far as seeing what’s out there. You can always stop searching if you get that changed position, after all.

      Good luck and heal up well and fully!

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        I think that’s what I’m leaning toward — my resume is fairly up to date, but leave would be a good time to reach out to a few contacts and see what’s up!

        1. valentine*

          Save as much as you can to escape the insurance net. Build what Lucy Liu’s dad calls an FU fund.

    2. Aquawoman*

      It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, you can keep an eye out and apply to anything that really makes you feel some excitement and skip the ones that are appealing only because they’d get you out of the environment. I think I’d at least look around as groundwork/practice.

      2. Jack Be Nimble*

        Thanks! I definitely have a strong tendency toward all-or-nothing thinking, so it’s good to be reminded that a passive search is an option!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d use my medical leave to work on my resume and check out the market, but I wouldn’t go so far as to job search (unless something wonderful popped up).

    4. Fikly*

      If you are physically up for job searching, why wait? Searching for, applying for, and interviewing for a job does not obigate you to take it if it is offered to you.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        For me, the time and work invested in a job hunt are significant enough that it wouldn’t be worthwhile to interview for the sake of it. Given other limitations on my time and energy throughout the week, applying for a job that I wouldn’t seriously consider accepting just isn’t worth it.

        1. Fikly*

          Fair enough.

          Would you be interviewing for the sake of it, or interviewing for the potential of finding a really great position? You can pick and choose what you apply for when you are not desperate for another job, that’s one of the nice things about it.

        2. Jack Be Nimble*

          Whoops, sent that with an incomplete thought: leaving my current position isn’t an option for right now — I’m looking at getting a surgery that comes with months and months of waiting to see one specialist and then another in order to get approval from one’s insurance company. The stars have aligned for me, and I’ll likely be able to have the surgery within the next few months. If I leave my current job and switch to new insurance, I’ll be starting from square one and completely resetting the clock, which could mean it’ll be years before I can have the operation.

          Gotta love it!

          1. Fikly*

            Oh, well, yes, I meant to address your question of whether to job search while recovering from the surgery. Sorry I wasn’t clear about that!

    5. FTandPregnant*

      I’m in a similar situation, I was job searching because I realized it was time for me to move on and then I got pregnant. My company has a generous maternity leave compared to the state, and the thought of job searching and starting a new place right before I needed to take substantial time off was enough to have me stay. I would also not be eligible for state mat leave if I started at a new place now. I was a little frustrated at first, but I decided to look at my situation as a means to an end. So instead of getting frustrated at a job with things outside of my control, I’m just focusing on getting ready for this next phase and potentially looking again once I get back and see what my situation is like.

      Good luck!

    6. Stormy Weather*

      Give yourself sufficient time to recover without thinking about it, then start looking, but don’t make it too intensive. Until you have an offer in writing, you can’t consider the possibility of the new role six months away as anything other than the possibility.

      The more senior you are, the longer your job search is likely to take .

      I hope the procedure goes smoothly with no complications and your recovery is easy.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I’d suggest you give it time and see how it goes. Even though you are unhappy with the immediate supervisor and drudgery of the work – are there any accomplishments you can be storing up?

      How likely do you think it is that you’d be promoted in to the new position?

      I’ve no idea if this is relevant but consider whether it is: the medical procedure prompting you to stay for the next couple months at least. Is there any possibility that it could generate more procedures in the future? (e.g. I broke a bone 2 years ago and received surgery for it, which was successful but there was a possibility that it wouldn’t be and in that case I would have had to go back for further surgeries).

    8. Leela*

      I’d job search! Depending on the field/area it can take way longer than you think it’s going to take, and you’d have a head start if you started looking now. Depending on how your medical recovery goes, you also have a pretty good cover to do interviews if you decide you want to proceed with anything you find which is definitely not a guarantee (and much to the chagrin of job seekers, most companies will not keep their employees after hours to interview you because it’s challenging to get away 9-5 or whatever your workday hours are).

      If you came back from medical leave to find out that the promotion isn’t happening, I think you’ll be a lot happier if you started the job search prior to finding that out. Also, it’s a much better experience to job search while not desperately trying to get out of your current role! Job searching knowing a promotion might be on the horizon gives you a chance to really weigh whether something will be a good next move for you rather than just looking for the nearest life raft (which I’ve definitely had to do).

      Whatever happens, good luck to you!

  17. Blueberry*

    The Excel discussion in one of yesterday’s letters has inspired me to broaden my Excel and Google Sheets skills (especially GS, what we currently use at my workplace). Before I open the firehose of YouTube videos and online tutorials I thought I’d ask here for recommendations for resources.

    1. humans are weird*

      Check if your local public library allows you access to Lynda.com or other online training sites. Better than paying for access to something individually :)

      2. anonnnymmmous*

        Seconded by someone who works for an online training site. Libraries are consistent clients because they want to provide their patrons access to helpful tutorials.

    2. Jack Be Nimble*

      I’ve found the tutorials on Exceljet to be super helpful! It’s broken down into digestible chunks, and each tutorial has a link to related skills — so the one about sum formulas links to one that shows how to use sum formulas nested inside an if-then formula, which links to one that shows you how to use v-lookups….

      I’m generally regarded as a really knowledgeable Excel user, and I keep telling people that my only real skill is knowing what keywords to search!

      1. straws*

        Seconded. I love Exceljet. Any time I search online, that’s my first stop if it comes up on the list. trumpexcel.com, automateexcel.com, and the mrexcel boards are also very useful.

    3. Lisa B*

      Sign up for the Excel Newsletter at My Online Training Hub – the examples they give in their mailings are really great excel tips. There are videos as well, but I find that the quick hits in the mailing are super helpful all on their own. I usually forward them to one or two folks each time because we can directly use it on a current spreadsheet issue.

  18. ExpatInTheHat*

    I’ve lurked and commented a few times but I had to share what I’m very excited about this week. I currently work teaching English in a non-English speaking country and it’s that time of year where a lot of us either renew contracts or move on to other jobs or countries. And now I officially landed a job at a great place and can leave my understaffed, highly dysfunctional current one behind! My current boss has been trying to keep me by offering a(n uncompetitive) counteroffer and, when that didn’t work, attempting to sow doubts by “subtly” talking about how the area I’ll work in has such “demanding parents” and how the schools in those areas “don’t give any understanding or wiggle room” to teachers and that they’ll “work me so hard.”

    Thankfully I can see through all that, and will happily be working less hours for more money and with a team that doesn’t try to claim they’re like my faaaaaaamily and then not pay me for my overtime (they did pay us eventually, because I pushed them and got my other coworkers to do the same). Now I can count down my days!

    3. Kowalski! Options!*

      Congrats! You deserve better, that’s for sure – speaking from experience, it’s amazing how much bad management there is in the language teaching industry.

  19. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So… One of our most recent coworkers quit. After three weeks. Claiming she didn’t felt “welcome” in the team. But… we tried?? We were… busy… working! We didn’t have time for anything else! We tried! We really tried!

    1. Daisy-dog*

      Sounds like it was a culture mis-match. Possibly could have been screened out, but it’s hard to screen for everything!

    2. vampire physicist*

      Is there an exit interview where you can get more details and examples (or was this part of the exit already)? I’d definitely want to know if it was a matter of people being actively unhelpful or exclusionary, in which case you have a problem, or if she’s someone who needs people to be super demonstrative and bubbly in which case it’s a poor culture fit and probably for the best.

    4. Camellia*

      Our company had that problem and decided to solve it with a ‘buddy’ system. You can volunteer to be a buddy and each new employee is assigned one. There is a list of things to do the first 90 days, like take them to lunch a couple of times, show them around the office, tell them stuff like how to order supplies, and so forth. That way, the burden, so to speak, isn’t on everyone, someone who enjoys doing that can be the one to do it, and the new employee is made to feel welcome. It has definitely increased our retention rate.

      1. ContemporaryIssued*

        An old job of mine did this, only they called it mentoring and did it for the employee’s first two weeks. Well, technically two of their first three weeks since week one was usually training by the trainers on how to use our systems. But it was very welcoming and a good way to teach the ropes of the job thoroughly as well.

      2. MOAS*

        That has potential to be really problematic or really awesome. If the right people are chosen (ie TRUE volunteers), that can be great but if the wrong people are “voluntold” to do it, it can be a not so great experience. I struggle with new people, I’m polite but I keep my distance. It takes me about a month or two of constantly seeing them to strike conversation and longer to want to go to coffee or a meal (IF we get along great).

      3. Windchime*

        We do something similar. We are a team of about 10 people and we have an onboarding checklist. During the first week or so, the new team member rotates through the department and learns different functions of the job. Sam teaches how to access and use the ticket system, Mary shows how we do our timesheets and timeclock system, Fred walks the new person around the neighborhood and shows them places to eat and other points of interest. This way, the new person gets to spend 1:1 time with each member of the team and learns how to do all of the general stuff a new employee needs to know. It works really well and gives everyone a chance to learn names and get to know each other.

    5. AndersonDarling*

      Are you sure that was the real reason she quit, or just the reason you were told? It’s possible she left because of the business practices, workflow, manager issues or something else that a manager may not want to admit.

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        I talked with someone who was involved in the conversation, and she basically stated that she wasn’t happy doing nothing but mandatory corporate trainings and waiting to be granted access to the project documentation and servers, but we can’t change that.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Oh wow – yeah, that kind of stuff is pretty standard when starting a new position. Is she a new grad with little previous work experience?

        2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

          I don’t know, I didn’t see her resumè and it’s not that weird in this field to have professionals who never went to college.

        4. Anon101*

          Three weeks? That’s an absurd reason to quit after that time frame.

          I could see if it was something like not even having a computer sign on after three months but not weeks.

        5. andy*

          Three weeks of doing nothing except training and still waiting for access to project documentation and work is excessively a lot.

          It takes months to be fully trained, but it should not take that much till you start to work.

          The “feeling of not being wanted” likely stems from that and is nit about bubly personalities. It seems to be about not being useful and needed as a worker.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m pretty sure anyone who leaves after 3 weeks has much deeper issues either on a personal level or something is just not clicking with them. That’s not on you, she didn’t fit for some reason, she most likely gave whatever answer felt best to her at the time and just wanted to be free.

      I left after a week once. Because the owner was…well they were yelling and being generally erratic. No thanks. But I said it just didn’t feel like a good fit [and I was overwhelmed with their weird vibes.] and wished them all the best.

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        My manager had a 1:1 with her to explain the project origins, main goals and what online tutorials she will need to have a basic understanding of the exinsting codebase and requested access she would need to work. I organized a formal training on how to set up the local enviornment and other team members helped her to solved any technical issues she had.

        1. LCH*

          sounds like culture fit. that’s all worky work stuff and maybe she wanted some socialization stuff thrown in. maybe she came from an office where people had lunch together, chatted throughout the day, went out after work, whatever.

        2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

          We do that! We sit together to eat and work, we have a short walk after lunch, team beers and even play football/soccer against other teams! Since different coworkers are on holiday we couldn’t do after hours activities, but we try hard not to exclude people.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I feel like she probably got a better opportunity (presumably from the round of applying for jobs that resulted in your recruiting her, since she was only there 3wks) and gave a “face-saving” reason that didn’t quite hit the mark.

      I don’t think someone would quit with nothing else to go to after 3 weeks just based on “not feeling welcome”, ipso facto, she had something else to go to.

  20. MOAS*

    How do you nicely shut down a coworker from constantly giving you updates about stuff? Sometimes things come to us and we have to send it to the right team lead. I am a team lead in addition to 2 others. One of them will give us updates and explanations.

    The thing is, she owes us no explanations. she doesn’t report to me, nor I to her and I don’t need to know the details. It’s different if it’s like “oh can you believe this crazy thing?” or “hey this is a weird situation, what do you think?” it’s just “oh yes standard run of hte mill thing that I have taken are of.” I said “ok please respond back to the ticket–we don’t need the details but as you know they need to be handled right away :D”.. (I know the “as you know” may be condescending but I wasn’t trying to be — we are really held to the fire whenever a client ticket comes in, we have to resolve it within minutes and within the parameters of what the upper mgmt sets. There were times that a ticket was supposed to be for the other team, but my boss put the blame on me for it not being resolved. But it stands, teh company policy is to resolve client tickets in an x amount of time, so beyond notifying each other when something comes in, that’s where our responsibility to it ends.

        1. valentine*

          beyond notifying each other when something comes in, that’s where our responsibility to it ends.
          I’m confused about this and maybe she is, too.

          You didn’t tell her not to report. Tell her plainly, “Unless you need guidance, please tell us only [that the ticket has come in?], not that you responded or how.”

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Is she the type that just gives a running commentary on everything she does?

      I wouldn’t say “ok please respond back to the ticket” or similar in that situation that you described. I’d either not respond at all or just say something non comittal like “oh that’s good, that will keep client X off our back for a while haha” (or whatever applies in your environment).

      Can you have more of a “meta” conversation like – oh we all know these tickets need to be handled right away so i trust you are doing it, no need to share!

      Is she new to your company (or your team) and had a previous situation where this kind of thing was expected perhaps? That could explain it.

      1. MOAS*

        No, she’s been here longer than I have (5+ years). That was my tone “i trust you are doing it, no need to share.” I also realize I’ may be BEC so I’m just going to err on teh side of letting it go and ignore it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Address it as you are trying to save her extra effort. “You know it’s okay not to send me these updates. Usually people just send stuff that is about unusual stuff that we don’t see very often. It’s okay just to respond back to the ticket.” (Is it possible that she does not know how to respond back to the ticket or what you mean by that? Is it possible that she thinks by emailing you she IS responding back to the ticket? I know ordinary stuff gets misunderstood on a regular basis. sigh.)

  21. Ashley*

    I am going to be sharing an office with someone for the first time in a decade. This is largely by choice because of logistical issues. This will be a new employee. Any tips for sharing? I know I need to get headphones because I have been able to freely play my music for years.

    1. Leslie Knope*

      Is there some sort of divider in the office? Not because you don’t want to look at each other, but in case you’re on phone calls or anything where you can’t mask the sound. I share an office and we put cubicles in the space so it would cut down on noise transfer, even though we could have just used two free-standing desks. It really does help when one or both of us need to be on the phone. Plus, we can still chat around the divider panel to remain friendly.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If you have any shared resources, volunteer how much rearrangement is possible on day one. ie “as long as we’re not bumping elbows” or “as long as we’re not looking directly at each other all day” or “anywhere they fit as long as I don’t have my back to the door”, or “the desks are so big that this is the only place they fit for existing network cables but we can move the wifi printer” — and ask that you two discuss any rearrangements before doing them.
      Tell the new person you’ve just brought in headphones because of music — implying that new person should do the same thing. If someone in the office has an issue with scents, let the newcomer know — and if not, ask if THEY have any issues. Consider discussing the issue of food in the office, since we know how divisive garlic & fish can be, let alone if someone’s there eating crackers.

      1. Ashley*

        Furniture has been on my mind and their first week we are going to do some moving around. I forgot about food and scents. Thanks!

  22. Diahann Carroll*

    I want to thank the people who gave me scripts to use two weeks ago when I posted in the open thread concerned that my coworker might replace my current manager when he leaves next year. I used the scripts and spoke to my manager today, and he said that he’s still not even sure when he’s leaving next year and he and grandboss will be discussing transition plans later on this year. He said that, ultimately, whoever replaces him will be grandboss’s decision since it’s his team – that made me feel so much better. I think grandboss has shown in the past that he understands group dynamics and is concerned about them enough to understand how promoting my coworker would be a huge mistake.

    Now, I’ll just make sure to touch base with grandboss periodically throughout the year to reiterate to him how important I think team dynamics are and how it would probably be best for me and coworker to report directly to him once our manager is gone. It’s the only thing that logically makes any sense.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Nice! I am glad that worked out well for you, it’s always good to see when someone’s situation improves. Good for you and good for the big boss.

  23. Drowning in work*

    How do you ask for help when no help is available?

    My office is already small and we are currently very short-staffed. For the past 3 weeks I’ve been doing the work of 2-3 people, and will continue doing so for an unknown amount of time. My co-workers are more than willing to help out when they can, but they have their own job duties to complete first. As for my supervisor, I’m not entirely sure how busy they are (or aren’t), but I feel like I can’t ask them for help because they’re my supervisor. Nor can I show them any signs of “weakness” or being overwhelmed. I can’t exactly say “this is too much for one person” either because the work I’m doing is crucial, but if I don’t do it, who will?

    I already have anxiety and depression, along with personal issues that I have been dealing with and losing sleep over for several months. I’m trying to avoid burnout but I just feel so incredibly tired, and tired of having to do everything and deal with everything.

    Any advice or suggestions would be MUCH appreciated.

    1. humans are weird*

      Why do you feel you can’t show signs of “weakness” or being overwhelmed? Is it part of the company culture, your particular supervisor, or internal self-talk? (I bring up that last one because I learned growing up to never show anything that could be perceived as weakness…. but that lesson does not serve me as an adult no longer living in that particular household).

      In a normal, healthy workplace you should absolutely be able to say “this is too much for one person”. It’s not your job to figure out who would do it instead — that’s your supervisor’s job, or the owner’s job. They have options. They can hire a temp, or another permanent employee. They can decide your team is going to stop doing certain things in order for other things to continue to happen. They can authorize overtime (for people other than you to help out), or pick up some of the work themselves.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Is there any work that your supervisor could reassign to your coworkers? If you tell supervisor that you’re behind and it’s getting worse, and ask if you could offload these four projects to the other staff according to how supervisor sees their strengths—make it seem like it’s supervisor’s idea. If you want to revisit it in 90 days to see if you’re getting caught up, or the staff has absorbed those jobs with no problem, etc. you can.

    3. Aquawoman*

      Is there an end in sight (eg, they’re hiring and you will have relief in 3-6 weeks?) I have to challenge some of your thinking here. If it is really “crucial,” then they’ll staff it, right? I would say it’s your responsibility to pitch in and work harder to the extent feasible for a short time period, but not indefinitely–that is on management. Also, pointing out that you’re doing the job of 3 people and asking what the plan is/letting them know it’s unsustainable is completely reasonable. Also FWIW I have been the supervisor in this situation for 8 months and I’ve been doing a bunch of work that I would normally delegate/acting in a dual role as manager and as the staff role. Specifically I would ask if you all could hire a temp.

    4. ArtK*

      As long as you go above-and-beyond in trying to do all the critical work, the situation won’t change. Why should it? You must push back and let some things go. If something critical doesn’t get done, that’s on the organization, not on you.

      1. Ashley*

        Yes. There are some scripts on the site about this. If I take on X then I can’t get to Y and Z by the deadline we discussed. If you can letting them shovel it on you will burnout. Dugout out what you think are reasonable expectations and talk to your boss so you can be on the same page.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        There have been quite a few letters like this, including discussions on Friday forums in recent months. So if you don’t see something in THIS particular thread or in the link june june hannah just posted, start looking back for more.
        https://www.askamanager.org/transcript-of-my-team-is-overworked-and-im-the-boss
        https://www.askamanager.org/transcript-of-im-drowning-in-too-much-work
        https://www.askamanager.org/2013/02/speaking-up-when-youre-unhappy-and-overwhelmed-at-work.html
        https://www.askamanager.org/2013/11/what-to-do-when-youre-overworked-2.html
        https://www.askamanager.org/2017/11/is-my-workload-too-high-or-am-i-bad-at-my-job.html
        https://www.askamanager.org/2019/10/my-employee-keeps-working-long-hours-even-though-i-asked-him-to-stop.html
        https://www.askamanager.org/2020/01/im-burned-out-and-overworked-and-my-bosses-keep-piling-more-work-on-me.html

        (Hey Alison — how hard is it for you to add another “topic” category? I got even more google hits on “askamanager + overworked” than I’d expected — I just stopped copy/pasting after the second page!)

    6. Kathenus*

      I’d change the focus from asking for help to setting reasonable priorities and being clear with your supervisor what is and isn’t able to be completed with current staffing. “Hi boss, just to let you know that with our current staffing we’re going to be focusing on A, B, D and Y; and putting C and Z on the back burner right now until we have enough people to add these tasks back in. If you’d prefer a different prioritization please let me know”.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      You can absolutely say “this is too much for one person”. It isn’t showing weakness, it is a fact.
      Absolutely bring it up to your manager ASAP! If it will help, start with an email and if you need to have a face to face meeting, bring a document listing the issues. Boss probably already knows they are understaffed so you simply need to light a fire under their butt to get people hired by saying “this is what I can get done…full stop”.

    8. Stornry*

      You can absolutely talk to your supervisor. If you are clearly short staffed, I’m assuming she realizes and acknowledges that, she may not be aware that you’re not getting by quite as well as she may think you are. Either she’s got other things on her mind or she may just assume you’re coping – so tell her, she can’t help if she doesn’t know. Set up a time to meet and review the workload. She should be informed that you are in danger of becoming overwhelmed. It’s not a “weakness” to be unable to do the work of 2-3 people, it’s a reality, and it is her job to help you do something about that. Let her know that things are piling up, ask for her help in prioritizing – what must be done first, what can wait, and what can be shifted. If you’re worried she might see you as “not up to doing the work” come in with some ideas on how the workload can be handled (some potential “solutions” as opposed to just the “problem” for her to fix). Good luck!

    9. Fikly*

      The understaffing mess is not your responsibility. It’s your company’s responsibility, and if stuff is not done, it’s their responsibility.

      Also, it’s your supervisor’s job to help you.

    10. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I think the anxiety and depression is undermining you, and you likely need to seek some help. I have the internal ‘must not show weakness’ voice, but that comes from my crazy upbringing with human beings who were overall kind of terrible people. I also deal with anxiety and depression on a regular basis, so I’m familiar with how it seeps into everything when you’re already under stress.

      Asking for help when you’re overwhelmed with too much to do is not weakness. It is being strong enough as a person to know what you can and cannot do. Asking for help rather than burning yourself out trying to do it all is also the sign of a good employee. Please speak to your supervisor.

      If you’re not already seeing a therapist about the anxiety/depression, please do so! Take care of yourself.

      And to answer the question of “…because the work I’m doing is crucial, but if I don’t do it, who will?” Someone else will do it if you’re not there. Or they will admit it cannot be done because there aren’t enough hands to go around. I sincerely doubt your employer would bankrupt themselves trying to take care of you. Don’t destroy yourself trying to take care of them.

    11. Koala dreams*

      Your workload is too much, and you can and should tell your manager. It’s much better to say something now, than wait until the deadline for the task has already passed (and if it has passed, it’s better to say something after one week and not three weeks).

      Your manager can help you prioritize your work. Directing your work is their work, after all. Even in a very flat organization it’s usually the manager that has the last word, not your co-workers. There are some previous posts in the archives about what to do if your manager refuse to prioritize. Basically you need to keep your manager updated about what work you are doing and what work you aren’t going to have time for.

      If you have sick leave maybe now is the time to take it, to help slow down the burnout. Sick leave is not only for when you are hospitalized, but also for normal sickness like depression and sleep problems, and for health needs such as being able to sleep or do treatment or rehab.

    12. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      What happened 3 weeks ago?

      I feel like that’s the key to how you should respond here.

      … You can absolutely go to your supervisor, and should do. Not necessarily saying “I’m overwhelmed” or “I need help” (though those are true!) which, as you say, are an expression of a position of weakness — but it needs to be put into business terms, for example “Since Jane and Joe’s departures I’ve been trying to complete my own tasks as well as the tasks of the P and Q positions but this isn’t sustainable so we need to figure out which tasks from this list (Ideally you’d have prepared a list) are the priorities and we will need to let the others go to the bottom for the moment”.

      I know exactly how you feel with the anxiety and depression.. Don’t make the mistake I did, of putting all of your (emotional / possibly physical) resources into the job in the hope of turning things around. Losing sleep over worries about completing whatever the deadlines were, while other people (yes, the co-workers who were “more than willing to help out when they can” — that’s unless it’s a late evening, weekend, public holiday, or whatever that is somehow ‘sacrosanct’ even though your own time off had been rescinded multiple times — am I projecting?) sleep soundly knowing that they offered.

      As a thought experiment.. what would it be like if suddenly you didnt “do everything and deal with everything”?.. What would be the consequences?

    13. TimeTravelR*

      My best day at work was when I realized it’s okay to raise the white flag. Since then I have raised it BEFORE I become totally overwhelmed. I just approach Boss and say, This is more than I can handle on my own. And also gives examples of things that will slide if I don’t get help. Being direct has helped every time.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      What everyone said and adding self-care.

      We wouldn’t throw Kool Aid into the gas tanks of our cars, skip routine maintenance and expect the car to run well. Same deal with our bodies.

      Here’s the important part, it’s not an all or nothing thing. Some self-care will get you some results. Since you mention sleep, try to start to figure out what you can do to get more rest. We have to have energy to sleep. I always thought that was cruel irony. Be sure to eat protein during the day, so you have fuel in you to help you sleep at night. I know when I am under stress eating is hard. You may want to consider a protein drink.
      Hydration is another biggie. Whole foods with fruits and veggies can be surprisingly supportive.

      See, as our bodies run down so does our coping mechanisms. What we could plow through a while ago, is no longer possible with a tired body and a tired mind.

      Another thing to look at is as others have said, take a second look at where the show of weakness thing actually comes from. My parents believed that allergy was a show of weakness and they point blank said it was unacceptable. I thought everyone wanted to double over when they drank milk. I was proud of myself for covering it and making sure I appeared the same as others. This took on a life of its own as I made more erroneous assumptions about how life worked.

      You have freedom here. By that I mean, this is going so badly that you could end up without a job either from illness or from walking out the door mid-day. This means you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by talking to your boss. FWIW, a good number of people would serious consider leaving this situation, you are not alone in your thought that this is outrageous.

  24. Older than I look*

    I look about 26-28, but I’m actually 33. (it’s a combination of good genes, sunscreen every day, and generally being a petite woman).
    I’m not ashamed of my age, but don’t know how to react to someone assuming I’m younger than I am.

    Yesterday someone was talking about Steve Jobs’ presentation skills and a co-worker I don’t know very well said something like “Liza, do you even remember a time before the iPod?!” and I laughed it off and said “Of course, I do! I’m older than I look!”

    I want to be taken seriously – and not assumed to be an intern (nothing wrong with interns, but I have nearly a decade of experience, and I am a licensed professional in two states). Should I just be more direct and say “oh, you know I’m 33, OF COURSE I remember the iPod release!”?

    1. alas poor yorick*

      Are you me? Because it’s the same thing here. One thing that worked for a short while for me was wearing even more formal/professional clothing than I normally do. But yeah, I feel ya

    2. alacrity*

      I’m the same age, and I found that comments like that aren’t necessarily related to people thinking YOU specifically are younger than you actually are, but rather people of a certain age lumping all people younger than them into the “basically just graduated college” age group. Kind of how like all the articles about “millennials ruin everything” seem to think all millennials are early 20s and not that the oldest of us are pushing 40 and the youngest have already graduated college.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        THIS. This SO MUCH.

        I work with a couple of people who seem to lump everyone under 40 into ‘just graduated / needs help learning to be professional’. One of them even lumped me in there, and I don’t *think* I still look under 40 (I’m almost 50). She even tried to give me advice on how to navigate my current employer, even though she’d been with us less than a year, and I’d been there over 15 years (which she knew; I’d done some of her orientation).

        It’s not every person who is older than me, but I have only seen it with people who are older than me.

      3. Creed Bratton*

        I got a “you millenials are so entitled” moment from an older coworker the same day as an “ok boomer” from a student. Both were said in jest but it’s like you can’t win!

      4. CheeryO*

        Exactly. My coworkers know that I’m 30, and I feel like I look my age, but I still get older people telling me that I must not know what a cassette tape/VHS/landline is. Like, all the time. People just don’t stop to think before they blurt out stupid stuff.

    3. Cinnamon*

      I am 28 & while I’m not mistaken for younger I definitely get the same comments. Some people just don’t realize time I guess. I was not old enough to buy the first iPod myself but I do remember having a Walkman beforehand?? Sometimes I do think it’s a subconscious need to feel older/more powerful against others.

    4. Yarrow*

      Same, but honestly, you just shut it down or make a joke and move on. If someone is CONSTANTLY doing it, tell them to stop. A coworker called me “an actual child” in a meeting once and I just stared at her until it got uncomfortable. Maybe that was the wrong move, but it did feel good. lol

    5. peach*

      Gah, I get that all the time, too. I’m 34, constantly get told I look about 25, and it’s annoying when people act surprised that I know a thing or am able to handle complex projects easily (it’s because I’ve got experience!). I don’t really have advice, because I’ve tried everything to fix this (dressing older/more professionally doesn’t work), so I just kind of always have to remind people of my age by saying things like, “In all my 34 years…” and eventually people either get it or they don’t.

      You have my sympathies!

    6. Workerbee*

      Sympathies here too!

      You could indeed state your age. Be prepared for what I’ve often found a sad corollary: People expressing shock, people falling all over themselves to assure you you don’t look that age, blah blah.

      I’m confident that one fine day, it’ll not only be okay to age (and show it!) but there also won’t be just one conception of what a particular age should look like. Until then, I find myself getting more than a little fed up with assumptions on both sides of that scale. Bah.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Actually, I wouldn’t state your age, TMI. Just stick with ‘of course I know X, how strange it is that you would think anything else’. People who do this are not just doing it to you.

    7. Not all*

      It’s a five year gap like jesus christ it’s not the end of the world if someone makes a joke about you looking young unless they’re doing it to be demeaning.

      1. Spreadsheets and Books*

        It’s hard enough for women to get respect or be taken seriously in many workplaces. Being treated like a child or being taken less seriously because you’re perceived to be straight out of the sorority house only compounds that.

        Assuming 35 vs 40 isn’t a big deal, but in the 20s/early 30s, it can be the difference between 3 years of work experience and 8.

      2. SunnySideUp*

        Are you new here? Because we generally don’t go all aggressive when a poster asks a real-life question for which she is seeking actual advice.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        The speaker in OP’s setting assumes the gap is larger than five years. A five year span is not worth remarking over.

    8. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      I have the same issue and generally laugh it off with something like, “Despite my youthful charm, I am actually older than dirt. I remember and used 5 1/4 floppy disks!”

    9. rageismycaffeine*

      This happens to me all the time. I’m about to turn 40. I still get carded buying beer at the grocery store. (I’m not old enough that this is flattering instead of infuriating.)

      I just laugh it off when people make comments like this, honestly. Do you feel like it’s affecting you in your professional life outside of comments like this? You said you don’t want to be perceived as an intern – does it feel like you’re being treated like one, outside of people making these kind of jokes?

        1. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

          I sell alcohol (at faire’s) and if you are 90 and your ID is not current I legally can’t sell it to you.
          It actually is up to the sheriff if we have to ask /everyone/ or anyone under 30.

    10. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I get this too. My hairdresser doesn’t understand why I won’t get highlights to the few grays sprinkling my head: this is exactly why.

    11. littlelizard*

      I’m in my early 20s and while I may not remember specifically pre-iPod release, I remember the first iPods and how it was an entirely new thing. My family got a ‘family iPod’ and it was a big deal, in everyday life we mostly still used CD players because the iPod was too special to take everywhere. Someone even a couple years older me would probably remember the release. So like, the whole ‘you’re not in your 20s’ thing aside, it’s not a reasonable thing to say even to someone in their 20s.

    12. matcha123*

      I am 3 years older than you and have the same “problem.” And…I really don’t know.
      I am not interested in dropping my age in conversations and I also wear clothing at work that is age appropriate and work appropriate. Moreover, I don’t agree with the sentiment that some people hold that only ‘older’ people have knowledge.

      I think that people who want to stereotype you as someone who is young and dumb don’t really care about your age. They care about being above someone. No matter how much you talk about your age, you’re not going to get respect from people who only judge based on appearances.

      1. Sunflower*

        Couldn’t agree with your second paragraph more. These people are jerks and looking for any easy excuse to be ‘better’ than someone. Stating your age or changing your appearance isn’t gonna change this person’s behavior.

    13. Constance Lloyd*

      Ugh, I feel you. A genuinely very kind coworker made a comment last week that I look like a little kid with me hair down. (A much more frustrating coworker calls me “little baby bird” on a daily basis, but we’re working on that). “But then, you always look like a little kid!” I do not love these comments. To the former, I just say I hope the baby face pays off when I’m 70. (To the latter, I just say “Constance is fine,” and move on).

      1. Leisel*

        As a woman in my mid-30s who is petite and has a baby face, this is so infuriating. If I’m old enough to work for this company, then I’m not a child. Don’t treat me like one.

        I had a coworker who tried to mother me quite a bit, even though she was just a few years older than me. It was just strange…and inappropriate. She would always laugh and say things like, “Oh! I forget you’re actually older than you look!” She didn’t forget. No one is that forgetful. -_-

        2. Constance Lloyd*

          Yes! I know the kid comments bug me more because I started my last job at 23 and was always viewed as the baby, even though I stayed for years and became the lead trainer and point person whenever our manager was out. When we needed to adapt our procedures To remain in compliance with changing regulations, I was the one who strategized the adaptations. But I was always the baby! So I had hoped this job would be my chance to be treated like a competent adult, and for the most part I am, but 60% of my time is with outside clients so I worry they don’t see me the same way.

          (One asked me when I was going to finish my internship. What internship? I’m not a student. I’m here to audit you, as we discussed in the phone.)

    15. MRK*

      Remember a lot of people are just, terrible at guessing age. And remembering exactly when things came out. Personally I’m 30 and have had the following all happen semi-recently:
      -I’ve been asked if I’m 18 when I was 27
      -I’ve been asked if I’m my partner’s mother (we are a whole 6 months apart in age)
      -pretty routinely asked if I’m a student at one of the local colleges/if I’m a very recent grad
      -I’ve had a customer complain about millenials at me (at work! Like a lazy millennial!) while completely ignoring that I clearly am one
      -Had someone assume my boss is my husband (I’m 30, he’s 57, not impossible I know but)

      It’s irksome, and I would shut down work related issues 100%. But I also couldn’t tell you exactly when iPods came out, I just remember them picking up popularity when I was in high school and I know I had an early model nano then. Honestly I feel like there have been so many technology upgrades and swaps in the last 30 years (aka hi I’m 30) that it’s hard to follow/know when people adopted/dropped things. See that same high school still insisting on only floppy disks my senior year (no cds or flash drives.) Also they had a giant laser disc player!

    16. Goldfinch*

      Many people have trouble estimating age within 5-ish years, which is the span you’ve listed here. It isn’t about you looking astonishingly young, it’s just about people being terrible at any frame of reference other than their own. Mentioning your exact age isn’t going to change anything.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        People’s intent isn’t magical, though. The effect of their frame of reference is undermining for women in the workforce.

    17. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I get this a lot, too. I’m 30 but I look ~5 years younger. At my last job, a VP who was probably only 4 years my senior made a joke about high school being so long ago to my manager (who was actually a year younger than me… I pivoted fields after undergrad) followed by an offhanded comment about how I finished high school like 15 minutes ago. I mean, my ten year reunion was the year prior, but okay…

    18. Mockingjay*

      The older I get, the more my coworkers and friends look younger. I can’t peg ages accurately anymore. I thought a coworker was late 20s. She’s 39. This happens all the time. I guess if you don’t have wrinkles, I mentally assign you to mid-20s. One more weird thing about aging.

    19. Nita*

      I’d just respond directly to the bit where you’re not being taken seriously. Like if someone says “Older, let’s loop your boss in because this project is going to be complicated” you’d say “I’ve been here for eight years and have a P.E. license, so don’t worry, I know what I’m doing!” or “Oh, don’t worry, I just closed out a similar project last week! I’ve been doing them for a long time now!” I mean… bringing your age into it doesn’t quite address the thing that’s bothering you. It sounds like people have been assuming you’re new to the industry because you look young, but it’s not the being assumed to be younger that’s the problem, it’s the being assumed to be a newbie.

    20. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Annoyingly enough what worked best for me was posting memorabilia from my 15-year college reunion. Looking back I think that when I finished a computer science certificate* from University of CityNearby, people assumed that was my only degree. (It wasn’t, it was a minor offered to people who already have a bachelor’s in something else.)

    21. recovering artist*

      I also look younger than I am– in my first year at my current job, I was chatting with some coworkers and said something about “when I was in my early 20s” and one of them said “wait, aren’t you in your early 20s now?” and I was like “No, I’m 32.”
      That said, that’s the last time I’ve mentioned it… while the same coworker who mis-guessed my age, who is the youngest person in the office and actually graduated from the institution we work at in a year ending in -teen, is CONSTANTLY saying stuff like “when I was a student here MANY years ago” and “WAY back in my day, because I’m SO old” etc. I’m sure he’s compensating for a bit of weird feeling because he’s working where he once went to school, but over-protesting about how old he is and how long ago he studied here draws more attention to his age and makes him look much more immature.
      So while I completely get the discomfort over being read as young, I’d be cautious about correcting for it too actively. If people assume your experience level based on the way you look, that’s on them, not you. A simple correction like “Oh yes, I do remember VHS tapes” and a change of subject will probably come across as more mature than getting into detail about your age.

    22. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      So, I used to look about 10 years younger when in my 30s and 40s, and never bothered to correct it, and maybe I should’ve. In addition to what was already said about not being taken seriously, I had a bizarre incident once when someone who’d been working with me for 4-5 years, in the middle of a conversation a group of us were having, said to me, “but it was different for you, because *you* had your kids when you were in high school!” and I was “wait, what?” and this person explained “I just assumed, because your kids are older than mine, and you are so much younger than me.” (She was younger than I.) No idea how long she’d been assuming that, or how many people she’d told, or whether it had affected me professionally at that job. Nothing against having kids while in high school, but I was out of college and with several years of work experience in my field when I started having mine.

      1. Extroverted Bean Counter*

        Not quite “kids in high school” level but I get similar assumptions a lot. For me it’s because I was a career changer, so despite being 31 when I started at my job it was at a level populated almost exclusively by 22 year old recent grads.

        Therefore people who know me professionally just assume I’m in that age range and are shocked (usually in a weirdly impressed kind of way?) when they find out I have two kids. It actually helps with my reputation a bit, oddly enough. A lot of my colleagues have expressed a level of admiration of my finishing college/getting my CPA/having two children/working full time at “such a young age”. Gives me a kind of “wow she really has her sh*t together” kind of vibe. I don’t discourage it.

    23. Extroverted Bean Counter*

      So, are people not actually taking you seriously? Or are they just assuming you’re a little bit younger than you are?

      If it’s just the latter then honestly, I wouldn’t sweat it. Most of the time remarks about “do you even remember XYZ” are intended as more of a self-reflective “woe for I am ancient” sentiment, and sometimes even a “please reassure me that even the hip youth know about 8 tracks so I can feel relevant” than a “you literal baby, if you can’t remember the iPod release then you aren’t a capable adult” thing.

      Especially if you’re being mistaken for mid-20’s and not legitimately a 19 year old intern. Lots of people are highly educated, highly credentialed, and are well respected by their mid-20’s if they have been knowledgeable and competent colleagues to date.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I had a very funny situation where I was discussing music with my boss. And we outted our ages by mentioning various groups. A third party was watching this conversation and let fly with something about us being older than him.

        He was born the same year I was. We are the same age. I just had a big interest in music growing up so I knew the groups and songs of a particular era and some of the preceding era. Next time this happens I will point out to him that we are the same age, just to watch his face.

        I think it’s good to know that the age thing never really stops. The best to hope for is that it dials back. I had to card people for a PT gig. One man said, “Com’on, we are the same age!” He was 35 and I was 48. He said, “OMG, you really can’t tell can ya?!”

        I have totally given up on guessing people’s ages. Now I go more by what they think of to say and the various subjects they talk about. This is actually more to the point and more specific, because if I have to explain something I have to have a good feel for the person’s level of familiarity with that thing.

        I have noticed that some people have a knack where they can comfortably work their age into conversation as a heads up to people. Maybe you can watch for other people doing this and find your own version. Or maybe you can find a humorous way to say, “Oh, I don’t think you mean to be guessing at people’s ages….”

  25. Kitty Harington*

    Does anyone had advice how to become a first choice candidate during the job search process? I implemented a lot of the suggestions—if not all—AAM has for job interviews, which has helped considerably in learning more about the job and getting people to talk. But I am still ending up final round with no offer. I don’t know what else I could possibly do, as it it’s extremely disheartening.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      If everything is equal-work history, experience, education- then you need to shine with soft skills. I used to do very clinical interviews, but I recently started to open up and be more passionate about my work while interviewing. You don’t want to be fake, but if you like the work you do then you want the hiring manager see that.

      2. Enginear*

        This.

        I interviewed for a position that was a completely different field that I did not go to school for but I made sure to display my soft skills and interest in that field and I ended getting the job, beating out other candidates who actually went to school for that industry. Employers are gauging if you will be a good fit into their team and the interview is when they get to see that. If you seem dull or awkward, then that’s the impression you’ll leave them with.

      3. Stormy Weather*

        This sounds familiar. Several years ago, I made it to the third round of interviews at a college I would have loved to work for. When the manager called me back with the rejection, he said that the feedback from the team that interviewed me (there is not room here for my hatred of interviews with more than two other people) was that ‘it was more like an interview and not enough like a conversation.’ I was grumpy, but ultimately grateful for the feedback because it gave me something solid to work on for the next place I applied to.

        1. voyager1*

          Stormy,
          That is such a weird thing to turn someone down by. An interview is a freaking interview. If they wanted a chat, they could take you out to lunch… somewhere nice… bonus points if it has a nice patio.

    2. Kathenus*

      AndersonDarling has great advice. One additional thing that helped me in the past was to really research the company that I was interviewing with so that I could speak in depth and knowledgeably about some of their work and history, as well as how I felt that I could help move their organizational goals forward. Look at the website, link to annual reports if available, news articles, staff profiles, whatever. I had one interview that I truly think turned on my knowledge of the organization and the homework I had done before the interview.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      At the risk of sounding like a broken record, see if you’ve got a Toastmaster’s near you. I briefly had a chapter near me, and in just a half-dozen sessions I felt more comfortable talking to the group and was organizing my thoughts more quickly.

    4. Leela*

      It is also possible that you’re just dealing with something that a lot of us are dealing with us: less jobs than candidates, and unfortunately a lot of times you’ll be perfectly qualified and liked (if you’re making it to the final round, this is almost certainly the case) but someone just has one little extra edge on you (longer schooling, more relevant project at their last job, bonded with one of the bosses over a joke or show or something) that you couldn’t ever know about from where you sit.

      I do agree with all the other advice you wrote here! It just might help to keep it in the front of your mind that you can be a perfect candidate and still lose out, over and over, in a way that feels more like rejection and you coming up short than it actually is. Never hurts to work on soft skills whether that’s the case here or not though!

  26. Deeply ashamed*

    I may be leaving my job this year and I was interested in applying in the corporate department of a retail store that I love to shop at. I am an accountant with about 7 years experience. The only thing that’s making me hesitate is–8 years ago I was caught shoplifting a tester at one of those stores. I was marched through the store and spent 3 hours in the loss prevention office. They did not call the police but I had to pay the maximum fine and was banned from the store for 3 years. This is the most shameful thing I have ever done in my life-I have no excuses for it, but it is something that I deeply ashamed of and regret and would never do again… I have never asked anybody, but I am just wondering if that would impede my chances. Also, I have no retail experience but I am less concerned about that than the shoplifting incident. 

        1. Autumnheart*

          Well, then I would apply and hope they didn’t retain a record of it anywhere. If they did, and it comes up, then it’s probably safe to say you won’t get *that* job. But it wouldn’t affect your chances at another retailer.

    2. Marny*

      Whether it will affect your chances really depends on if the individual retail stores and the corporate office communicate about these kind of things and maintain records about that stuff and crosscheck applications with records, blah blah. There’s truly no way to know. But it’s free to apply and there’s really no downside. The worst that can happen is that they don’t hire you, which is the same outcome as not applying at all.

    3. Viette*

      I get the impression you’re scared you’re going to have to talk about it at some point during this process? I’m no oracle but I’m sure you’re not. It could go one of two ways: there’s no residual file about you and corporate doesn’t know you from anyone else in which case you have as good a chance as anyone, or the file got into a database that corporate can see and then there’s no way they’re interviewing you. Either way, you’re not going to get an interview at corporate and then be asked, “hey what about that time you shoplifted at our store?”

    4. Jack Be Nimble*

      Everyone makes at least one dumb mistake in your life, and this was yours. I’d apply, knowing that it’s extremely unlikely that it will come up during the interview process. Would it make you feel better knowing you had a script prepared, in case they asked you about it? Having something like “I’m not proud of it–it was a momentary lapse in judgment, and one I’ll never repeat. I’ve done my best to put it behind me, and am focusing now on X, Y, and Z.”

    5. Orange Porridge Pudding Pie*

      Either there is a record & they will reject your resume & you won’t get further in the process

      OR

      There isn’t a record & you will/won’t proceed in the application process based on your own merits

      I’d apply & assume if they interview you, there isn’t a record & it’s a non-issue.

    6. Moth*

      I can’t say for sure, but my guess would be that most stores don’t keep records for that long on people who shoplifted. I would imagine maybe they keep pictures and information for at least the 3 years, maybe more, but even that is probably more at the local level than the corporate level. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I would be surprised if the corporate department cross checks everyone who applies for positions against a list from the loss prevention office. I think it’s worth applying. Yes, you did something that you’re ashamed of, but it was 8 years ago and you paid your debt to them for it (with the fine and ban). I don’t think you should continue to hold it against yourself beyond regret and a lesson learned. And I would imagine that they are unlikely to flag your application because of it. The only two caveats would be that if there is a spot on the application that directly asks if you’ve ever done something like that, I don’t think you should lie (and it may be more likely to come up on the application or in interviews as an accounting position) and that I have no experience in current corporate retail, so maybe there is more attention paid to that for a longer period than I’m aware of. You have nothing to lose by applying though!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I would not apply.
      I base this on knowing how harsh retail can be. It’s really dog eat dog.

      Please seriously think about this. Picture yourself at the job. Are you going to be worried about this past life event coming to the foreground? Is it going to eat at you when you realize your whole life is based on a paycheck from this place?
      Managers in retail make decisions based on whims. “Which way is the wind blowing today, okay so then I will pick B over A.”

      I am a big fan of letting people move forward in life, the past is the past and so on. The world of retail can be heartlessly unforgiving. I am saying this in the context of put yourself where you KNOW you will succeed. It’s foreseeable that you could end up working with some real piranha people and you could spend your days constantly looking over your shoulder. This is so not worth it. Put yourself where you will bloom avoid places that will cause you to wilt.

  27. MustLoveFrogs*

    I have a business trip coming up that I just got the schedule for. Going from the East coast to the West coast and leaving at 6 AM on Sunday. Arrive and have meetings from the afternoon to around dinnertime, after which I’m told we have a dinner meeting and then another meeting over drinks. Long story short it looks like I have work committments for about 18 hours straight with a short break in the middle. On a Sunday. This is the worst day followed by three more busy days.
    Any suggestions for how to make this easier on myself ? Should i suck it up and deal or is there a basis to push back a little? Is it reasonable to want a day off to recover that i don’t have to use PTO for?

    1. Cinnamon*

      Are all of these meetings required or is it just the norm that everyone attends? I’ve had busy business trips but for some the meeting over drinks is definitely a more casual networking that isn’t required and you are not looked down at for not attending.

    2. CatCat*

      This is nuts. I’d push back on the departure date, personally. That’s what I would push on the hardest. They should fly you out Friday or Saturday.

      Totally reasonable to want a day off to recover. Can’t hurt to ask if you can do so without having to use PTO. If that’s not possible, could you work from home and do some low key work that day? Then at least you don’t have commute/get ready for work and can wear sweatpants. You might not get these things. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask.

    3. LuckySophia*

      Is there any way you can change your Sunday flight to Saturday? That way you’d have almost 24 hours to rest/re-acclimate/adjust to time change before your Sunday marathon of meetings (and 3 more busy days) . I think if you try to fly on Sunday then go into all the meetings, you’re going to be…a zombie by Sunday dinnertime and still exhausted on Monday, and still not perky on Tuesday.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Push back — this leaves ZERO time for transportation glitches. A few hours of weather delay could make you miss your Sunday activities.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Do you normally work weekends? If not, then I would push for taking the day off when you get back. Meetings on Sunday don’t happen in my industry unless there are extenuating circumstances, but I would absolutely take the day when I got back.

      I have no tips for you. I am a terrible plane sleeper, though I do recommend a good travel pillow for neck support in general. Drink plenty of water.

      Is there anyone else coming from the east coast with you?

    5. KR*

      I think it’s super reasonable to want a day to recover, or even a couple hours to shower and clean up. After a long plane ride I am Nasty – I just get sweaty and oily and germy. Traveling from the East to the West coast gives you a bit of an advantage because of the time zones. You will be up bright and early every morning, that’s for sure. But it puts you at a disadvantage because you will get tired earlier in the evening.

    6. Bex*

      At my current company and my last one, bosses could approve comp days. I usually used them for holidays that I had to work because of client meetings, but I definitely also got then if I had long travel and meetings over a weekend.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      Oooohhhh…yeah. I would try to get the flight changed to Saturday. Time change alone should be a valid reason. Honestly, I would be completely worthless at that post-dinner meeting (especially since drinks are involved).

    8. Salsa Your Face*

      Definitely push to fly out on Saturday instead. This should be standard and expected–not only for your own comfort, but to accommodate any difficulties at the airport! If your flight was delayed or cancelled, you could miss your entire day’s worth of meetings. To your employer, the cost of an extra night at a hotel should be worth the peace of mind that you’ll be able to accomplish the goals of your trip.

    10. Sunflower*

      I’d push to try to fly out on a Saturday. You can also ask for a comp day(or something like that) after you get back.
      I work events so I have a lot of weeks structured this way. We can’t get comp days/time to totally even out so my boss is usually tries to give us something back at the end of it- it’s usually a WFH day where we are online and answering emails but not expected to work beyond that.

      This is also a little bit ‘know your culture’ I work at a consulting firm and people travel a ton so your schedule isn’t totally out of line from what our people do. The tight travel schedules usually have more to do with needing to be in multiple places in a short period of time and/or people don’t really want to be away for longer than they need to.

    11. ThatMarketingChick*

      First, agree 100% on pushing back based on logistics if *gasp* a plane is delayed. Getting out there the day before is just plain smart. Imagine the opportunity costs if your flight is delayed or cancelled. I doubt the satanic planners who developed schedule will be moved by anything other than this.

      However, if the schedule still stands, here are some of my tricks for long days that include sitting in a metal tube, flying through the air, and then trying to resemble a competent human being for the next 8+ hours:
      – As soon as you board, change your watch and phone over to the destination time
      – Stay hydrated on the plane
      – Noise cancelling headphones so you can sleep or mentally check out and rest up before the barrage of meetings
      – Bring deodorant/cleansing wipes to clean up after you land. I’m partial to Pacifica’s
      – Face mists: get a good one and use it throughout the flight if you tend to have dry skin
      – If you’re going right to meetings from the airport, duck in the bathroom and wipe down with aforementioned deodorant wipes, brush your teeth, change your shirt, and grab a coffee
      – Plan a way to gracefully exit once you feel drinks have devolved into non-business conversation.
      – Pack a few self-care items, like a sheet mask, workout gear, or anything else that may help you decompress

      It’s not ideal, and I’ve been there. I did a red eye to Scotland, immediately landed and went to a project site, was there all day and then had dinner after. By 9 PM, I was toast. Good luck!

  28. abc123*

    Agreed. I work in the field and am contemplating a transition out. If you have any doubt don’t do it. This job is hard and you have to really want to be here to survive. If you are not prepared it will wear on you!

  29. Pusheen*

    Thank you so much to everyone who took the time to respond to my post last week, I really appreciated everyone’s thoughtful advice. This week has been a bit more calm…sometimes I think it’s just busy season that brings out the worst in people, but I remember there are issues year round. It was always my plan to stay here until I could go on maternity leave and then decide from there. I cleaned out some things and took them home (I have 6 years worth of stuff here including a million thigns I use on a daily basis) and began working on my resume. I already have backups of personal files. So I feel a little more calm now.

  30. PX*

    More vent than question – this week I realised I definitely need to leave this job because I am constantly gaslit by incompetent coworkers! I literally had a conversation where a developer told me we had never built the llama grooming feature when I asked him why it wasnt working. Last summer not only did we build a llama grooming feature, I tested it, there is documentation and tickets for it. But I had to check that I hadnt imagined it and we had in fact done this before I could feel comfortable pushing back and telling him that no, this is definitely a bug, we did in fact build this – so why isnt it working.?

    In an ideal world, competent developers who actually followed the process and didnt build things which break old code would mean this isnt an issue. Alas, in my current world, this is so commonplace that I start to doubt half the things we’ve ever done will work in 6 months, and make me feel like all I do is babysit to make sure people dont break things more than they need to. And then I start to feel like a crazy person when things break which used to work (did I imagine it?! Maybe its just one of the million things in our backlog?!).

    Argh.

    1. A tester, not a developer*

      Newer hires laugh at me for the amount of stuff that I document/screenshot. I always warn them, but most don’t listen until they get burned on “I swear this worked/existed last week” and they just get a blank stare from our developers in return.

      1. PX*

        *Sad fistbump of solidarity*

        I should probably go down the more documentation route, but hopefully I’ll be hearing back about a new job next week and then I can let all this go to some unsuspecting victim.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      It probably doesn’t help much, but: I have lived / worked with / around developers for 35 years now, since my mom became one. I have never heard of a development environment where new dev didn’t sometimes break the old. Mom’s boss *totally* broke his own program around 1990 and she had to fix 4 customer installations (medical front office sw) around Christmas – I sat at one drs office in TN on the way to my grandparents’ place while she installed the fixes.

      Your developers should know this happens, and be thoughtful about it – it is very weird that they are not. This would make me look pretty hard at either their manager, or at the overall company culture.

      1. PX*

        I’m like, regression testing! That is the entire reason we have testers and have a whole process of regression testing! And yet, this happens all the time. Its hard because they are all very nice people but….actually absolutely terrible at doing the actual jobs they are meant to do. This is just one of the many areas in which despite the fact that we theoretically have processes that should make sure these things dont happen – they still do.

        So I end up wondering if I’m the crazy one because I’m constantly like: How and why is this not working? How was this missed? Why does no one care that this thing has stopped working?

        I realised I’ve been taking on too much responsibility for caring/testing (which other people should be doing) so now that I’m job searching I’ve just resolved to let stuff fall through the cracks but I hate it. Its not in my nature to enjoy putting crap products out there, but I’ve realised I cant care more about this than the actual people with power to change things so alas, here we are. With me screaming into the internet void for sympathy and trying not to let it warp my sense of normalcy/proper work ethic.

        Your point about the company culture is valid, although in this case its mostly restricted to just our team (lucky me!) – they just…dont seem to care about putting out poor quality work. So I too must learn to shrug and let it go :/

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Did that developer work on the llama grooming feature? If not — it’s possible that he didn’t know it had been built; some companies have quite well built up “silos” of development! If he did work on it, it is possible that there’s a change of name (‘llama grooming’ vs ‘camelid hair maintenance’)

      I expect you did test it and raise tickets, but this developer for whatever reason either didn’t know about that llama grooming feature or didn’t immediately recall it. Maybe it wasnt a bug that should be assigned to his team (possible ‘smell’ of unclear responsibilities).

      Why did you [feel you] have to check that you hadn’t imagined it? (I can see supplying actual issue numbers in Github or whatever… but it sounds like you felt you had to check for your own sanity that you hadn’t imagined it). When it wasn’t just a trivial thing like “maybe I rembered wrong about this” but was actually calling into question all the work of “last summer”?

      As a QA (I think! from your post) you may have verbal conversations with developers and so on, but the key to all of what you do is ‘evidence’. So, screenshots of a bug manifesting itself in the llama grooming software. A list of steps to reproduce the bug, *in a known configuration of environment*.

      I’ve never been a ‘career’ tester but have been seconded to testing on occasion, and always delighted in finding those kinds of cases the devs had overlooked.

      I am not sure what you mean by (not) building things that break old code (but I can guess).. I fear this may be a constant struggle at the level of actual realistic companies.

      What you describe sounds like a fairly typical experience for QA to me (,sadly!)

    4. andy*

      1.) New development constantly breaks old features. That is one of things testing is for and feature freeze phase of process cycle is for.

      They can take down on these by having automated tests. Take however takes additional time either of developers or of testers. And millions things in backlog remark suggests that no one has time for that.

      2.) If you had to check to be sure, they are likely to forget too. People don’t remember what they personally did a year or two ago – much less what other people did.

      3.) Proper process does not prevent old features from breaking. It lowers the chances and have steps that ensure bugs are caught before release. Developer following the process still produces bugs.

      4.) It sounds like the communication is quite hostile from both sides. Bugs happen because people make mistakes. Yelling at them and forcing them to explain to you why they make mistakes won’t fix your process.

      Nor will assuming they are gasslighting you when they likely really don’t remember the feature.

  31. Sometimes Tardy*

    Last week I received an email from my manager, forwarding a spreadsheet from the HR department detailing the times I was “late” over the past month. The email test from HR read “this is not a verbal or a written warning, this is just a reminder to please strive to be on time for work.”

    It should be noted that I am a salaried exempt employee and work 40 hrs a week, but the only “clocking” function that can be tracked is when I use my badge to get in the door. There is no way to track how long my lunch breaks are or when I leave for the day. Most of the latenesses that are documented are 1-5min late, except for when traffic made me 20 min late. I do not has customer-facing responsibilities or other functions that require extreme punctuality.

    I have decided to mainly ignore this, make an effort to leave for work 2-5 min earlier, and see if that will keep them off my back. I believe that unless they address my arrival time with me in person / address performance issues they believe are attributed to this (fairly minor) tardiness, that this isn’t a cause for major concern. But am I correct? Should I ask HR if they expect to see improvements or if there will be consequences if I am not “striving” enough? Ignoring it is the least effort choice, but if this will impact my employment I would like to know directly. FWIW we don’t have formal review processes at my company, so I have very little documented feedback on my performance at work. My manager will thank me for a good job on a project or a task, but that is about it.

    1. CatCat*

      I would have a meeting with my manager about it. “Can you help me understand the problem here? Why is it a problem if I am sometimes 1-5 minutes late?”

      Also, “The email said this is not a ‘warning.’ It’s a really mixed message that this was sent to me, therefore. I am not sure what it means. Is my job at risk over this?”

      This kind of nitpicky clock watching drives me UP THE WALL. I would want clear answers on (1) the problem, and (2) the consequences.

      1. Sometimes Tardy*

        A friend mentioned to me that if there are employees whose tardiness is a serious problem, that having documentation for all employees is important so that the company can prove they are being “fair” which makes sense, but I don’t see how the emails out to people are needed if it’s just for HR documentation.

        All my manager did was forward the email from HR (HR sent out an email to all managers with spreadsheets for each employee) so I’m not sure if this conversation is one I should have with my manager or with my HR rep.

          1. Giant Squid*

            I’d honestly just let it go, perhaps be a little later to “test” it (do they say “You haven’t improved!”?). Manager may have audibly rolled her eyes and just forwarded it to OP to be done with it.

            I worked at a place with a lot of that type of stuff (busybody orgs), and my line manager did not care at all. Unless manager actually says something (in email or verbally) I would ignore it and assume they have an email filter set to auto-forward.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Manager may have audibly rolled her eyes and just forwarded it to OP to be done with it.

              Yeah, but OP should still clarify with her manager that that’s what happened here. If she doesn’t and OP ignores it thinking her manager was just sending this as an FYI, she could find herself being called into HR a month from now and told her last day is that day due to her tardiness. It’s always better to err on the side of caution when HR gets involved.

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      If you can manage it in every day by 8, I hope to God you are swiping out no later than 5:01 every day!

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      But you’re SALARIED. I can’t believe they’re having this much of a fit about this. I am so angry on your behalf. :(

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, I find that baffling. Unless your job requires you to handle the Jupiter account at 8 am because the Great Red Spot will rotate out of view by 8:30 and thus force you to postpone your important daily touch-base with the Jupiterians, I just can’t see how this is relevant to a salaried position.

        Everywhere I’ve ever worked, the exempt people show up and leave whenever they darn well please. Some arrive earlier, some later, but they aren’t subject to this.

    4. Bananatiel*

      I suspect they don’t care/aren’t tracking when you’re LEAVING though, ha. That having been said, if you arrive 20 minutes late due to traffic and are leaving later in the day accordingly, it might be in your best interest to document and track that as well. But I wouldn’t bother with that until you’ve had a chat with your manager to find out what the impacts for you really are. If they claim it’s not actually a big deal but you keep getting these weird emails I’d be doing my own documentation just in case.

    5. WellRed*

      I’m tempted to tell you to give this exactly as much attention it deserves, which is none. but you’d probably be better of asking your manager WTH this is. Any chance there’s some new eager beaver all bored in the HR dept?

      1. Sometimes Tardy*

        I know one of the company goals for HR (company goals are shared at a yearly meeting) are to be better with attendance, and our PTO policy recently changed to allow for it to be used in 15 min increments (previously 1 hr increments). However, the attendance issue was understood to be related to our hourly employees who work on the shop floor, where some problem employees are prone to not showing up at work, showing up hours late without informing management etc. All employees may just be in a giant “time tracking” initiative ? I’m not really sure where this is coming from but it may be worth touching base with my manager to confirm my general attitude re: this email

    6. Enginear*

      Wow. Talk about micromanaging. As you stated, just leave for work a couple minutes earlier and you’ll be good.

    7. That'll happen*

      That’s so weird. At my job both non-exempt and exempt have to clock in, but we have ADP (timeclock/website/app) for that. What if you got in at the same time as someone else and didn’t need to badge in?

      1. lost academic*

        Many places that require you to badge in have very strict no tailgating policies. Everyone needs to badge individually.

    8. Curmudgeon in California*

      If I got that kind of thing from HR, I’d go to my manager and ask a) if he cared, and b) was HR gunning for my job. If either he cared or HR was after my job, I would a) try to get there earlier, b) stop working late, and c) start looking for a new job. I don’t like clockwatcher companies.

    9. KAG*

      This could be indicative of company culture. For some companies, it really is An Issue, no matter how ridiculous it seems, and I think it’s in your best interest to clarify with your manager as suggested elsewhere in the comments. I’m not sure how long you’ve been there, and if this has just come up randomly and recently, but I ended up quitting a job over this (also salaried, non-exempt, non-customer facing) and wish I had addressed it earlier. Maybe then I would have admitted earlier that *no* project is cool enough to be worth the red flags.

      ToxicJob’s focus on attendance was, as far as I could tell, driven by the fact that the CEO (my boss) was never in the office (perhaps a total of three weeks over my 9+ months there), and the only way he knew how to ensure people working was through cameras and bioprint scanners tracking when people entered and left the office. He did not once acknowledge or respond to substantive emails; all I received were emails about attendance and such.

      Had I inquired more aggressively earlier on – well, still nothing might have happened, but perhaps I would have realized that the 24-7 always-on, project is king mentality doesn’t mesh well with the 8-5 butts-in-seat environment. The anxiety of knowing that my hours were being so closely monitored while my work was being ignored ultimately resulted in my departure.

      TL/DR Ask your manager. :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Find out what the intensity is here. If they are bananapants over “clocking in” that is probably not going to go away. Ignoring it can cause unwanted surprises later on, such as job loss. Face it now and find out what you are dealing with. Don’t ignore it.

        Notice I am not saying they are right. I am saying they have YOUR paycheck, so you want to be careful here.

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      “I have decided to mainly ignore this, make an effort to leave for work 2-5 min earlier, and see if that will keep them off my back”

      You need to have a conversation with your boss about their expectations for your time keeping. I would pursue this conversation ahead of anything else about HR etc.

      There was a spreadsheet, so from that I presume that there was a list of people, not just you, who had been “late” in the last month.

      Are you “late” by just a few minutes each time where leaving 2-5 mins earlier would solve it? (in which case you must have the luxury of living within about 15-20 mins of your office)

      You just said it in passing, but I think the wording of “[leave earlier and] see if that will keep them off my back” speaks volumes. It is a quite adversarial and hostile attitude, maybe not on the surface which seems quite mild-mannered and passive if anything, but because it sees you jumping directly to actions rather than having a conversation … because you are then “trying out” things rather than understanding their motivation in saying this.

  32. Commuter*

    I’m going to be trying to get pregnant soon! I have a pretty decent vacation/sick time balance, but nowhere near the 480 hours required to make a potential maternity leave paid. Is there any way I could ask my manager if I can earn some comp time without revealing why I need it?

    I’m taking a 3 hour evening class on work time right now which is awesome, but because of that I’ve been reducing my work hours. My supervisor previously told me he didn’t want me earning comp time because of this, but I took that to mean he didn’t want my workload/classload to be too stressful. Is it worth approaching the conversation again? Any tips on how to do so?

    1. Natalie*

      Does your workplace offer short term disability coverage? That will generally pay for 6 weeks for vaginal birth and 8 weeks for surgical birth (at 60%), so it gets you a fair bit closer.

      1. Commuter*

        It does and I’m enrolled for this reason, but it only pays out 60% of weekly earnings. I know that’s better than some might have the opportunity to get so I don’t mean to complain, but my husband is in a field where he doesn’t get PTO so I’m really hoping to have a fully paid leave if possible.

        1. Natalie*

          Absolutely, you just wouldn’t need 480 hours if some of it is paid for by short term disability (assuming you’re US and talking about FMLA). Oftentimes you can’t use your PTO while collecting short term disability, or you can only use the amount to cover the difference between the two.

          1. lurker :)*

            I had a similar leave policy when I had my daughter. They paid out the disability first and then the comp time I’d accrued. I am not sure how big your company/org is, but maybe time to band a bunch of parents together and advocate for a better family leave policy?

        2. Amy Sly*

          Keep in mind that 60% is without taxes or other withholding, so you may find that the checks you take home are actually about the same.

    2. Nita*

      Can you bank comp time at all? At my company we can only use comp time within the same week. This may be a non-issue if you have a similar rule. Another suggestion – a few states now have paid leave of their own, so check if your state does.

      1. MoopySwarpet*

        You might check your state labor laws, too. Some states have specific rules about comp time.

        If you are non-exempt, I don’t think any state allows comp time in lieu of overtime pay, which is why most companies that do allow it require the time to be taken in the same week.

  33. Llama Wrangler*

    How do you handle it when coworkers are refusing my offer to pay them back for things they buy me (all $1-2) and never give me an opportunity to return the favor?

    I am a senior level and as such it’s a little harder for me to get out of the building than my office mates, and so a couple of times a month if a one of them says “I’m running to the store, do you want anything?” I’ll ask for a coffee or a snack. I always immediately go to give them cash for it, and they say “oh, don’t worry about it.” But whenever I’m going to the store and offer, the same people never ask for anything. Is there something I should be doing differently? I really don’t want my colleagues (who I know earn less than me!) to be picking up my bill, but I also don’t want to make it into a “no, I insist” back and forth.

    1. Policy wonk*

      Keep a few singles in an envelope in your top drawer, and pull 1-2 out and hand them over as you are telling them what you want. That way they aren’t slowed down while you get out your wallet, you find you only have a $20, etc. Having been on both sides of this I can tell you I’d rather spot you the $ than take the time. Having small bills readily at hand should solve the problem.

      1. Viette*

        Strongly agree. You can pull out a $5 bill if you want, to cover prior purchases as well, but nobody wants to be making change. I’d also prepare a response if they try to refuse to take it! I personally would go with holding the bill out toward them without any change in body language (don’t make it look like you’re even considering not giving it to them) and then adding a pleasant joke, like, “no, no, take it, go buy yourself something nice!” or “put it in your retirement fund!” or whatever suits your relationship.

    2. Hallowflame*

      Is there a way you can bring in some kind of small treat for everyone once in a while? It’s not exactly the same, but it can convey appreciation and goodwill.

      1. Bananatiel*

        I was going to suggest something like small coffee shop gift cards for those that have refused to be paid back in the past, I like the small treat idea!

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        That’s a nice compromise for the people who genuinely don’t mind paying for OP’s things and don’t want monetary repayment.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Bring in a box of treats on you way in in the morning now and then—a fruit basket, donuts, etc. and let everyone know they’re fit everyone.

    6. Llama Wrangler*

      Thanks, everyone, for the great suggestions. I will go with a combination of them.

      A related question — one of the people is diabetic and manages his diet carefully and so many of the things I’d reflexively get as treats are no go. Any suggestions of non-food based treats, or non-carb-based sharing foods?

      1. Stornry*

        packets of nuts or trail mix, granola bars, dried fruit, apples or bananas. cheese snacks if you have a group fridge.

        1. Fikly*

          Diabetic here – nuts vary a lot in carbs, and dried fruit, apples and bananas are super high in carbs, so they would have to either take meds to compensate or be unable to eat them. The majority of granola/snack bars are very carb heavy as well.

          If you want non-perishable snacks, I’d recommend something like those dried cheese crisps, perhaps. Or ask the person what they would like – if you want it to be a surprise, take a guess for treat #1, and then ask them when you give it to them if there’s something that would work better.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Ask that person. My husband would always accept plain bottled waters. Sometimes he would have a flavored water if it did not have any sugars in it. He’d take a coffee or once in a great while a tea.

        I lived with a diabetic for almost 3 decades. One thing I really saw is that our society is super food focused. Very seldom did we go anywhere and not find food being served. I had one person explain to me that it is RUDE to turn down any food that is served, everyone MUST eat it. Oh boy, I guess this person is in for a big awakening.
        It’s helpful to keep in mind that food is part of life but not all of life, assume your person is SO DONE with the food focus in our society. Ask once and accept the answer they give you.

    7. It's business time*

      I would get a gift card from the shop and give it to them to use to pay for it so you don’t need to keep cash, you can tell them to put it all on the card or your purchase only

  34. I don't wanna be the office manager!*

    I’ve been ‘holding down the fort’ for the past few months while my colleague has been out unexpectedly for a family health crisis. In that time we’ve hired another staff person for our small office and the on-boarding, furniture ordering, training, supervision, etc, has all fallen to me (along with many other tasks my colleague normally does). I’m worried about being pigeon-holed into an admin/office manager position, which is what happened to the colleague I’ve been covering for. Last year I earned a professional certificate to advance my career in this field, and move away from the office managerial work that seems to drift my way incessantly.

    This new hire has been getting desirable assignments even though I’m senior to them and everyone involved has agreed the assignments should at least be offered to me first. Yesterday it came up that they had received another desirable assignment when they hadn’t yet done the basic administrative work I’d assigned weeks ago. So the new hire offered to give the assignment to me instead, and I accepted (they offered as they were admitting they had a number of other things they hadn’t gotten to yet).

    Now I feel icky about it, like I bullied them into handing it over. I don’t think I did, and it’s more that I’m just not used to being the person in charge. I guess I’m wrestling with feeling like I could have just let this one go, but also feeling like if I don’t stick up for myself I’ll be treated like a doormat and passed over for interesting assignments and opportunities to advance.

    1. WearingManyHats*

      Don’t feel bad, sometimes you have to stand up for yourself! They may also feel weird about getting the cool assignments, who knows.

    2. Auntie Social*

      You didn’t bully anyone. And they acknowledged that they hadn’t gotten to some other things yet. Who is doing the offering of assignments? I would remind them that you’re senior to the new hire, and you should be offered the assignments because you’re available.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You need to talk to whomever is passing out these assignments about being skipped over. That you’re there trying to spread out the administrative tasks and are then being left without the assignments you should have is the real issue.

      You didn’t bully anyone, you gave them a big out. They’re new. They were probably feeling like they were drowning and when you brought up that you wanted the assignments,they went “OMG THANK YOU” in their head and offered them to you. You took rocks off their backs, that’s the opposite of bullying.

      1. I don't wanna be the office manager!*

        I’m going to try to speak to that person today. It’s a weird situation because there’s no one at the steering wheel– the grandboss is traveling 95% of the time and so my colleague who has been on leave is normally the de facto manager and supervisor in our office. With her being out and the grandboss being extremely hands off, I feel very awkward as a staffer going to a junior partner and telling them they’re messing up the workflow. I do have a good working relationship with her though, so I just gotta put on my Grownup Pants and do the thing.

      2. WellRed*

        +1. Teh new hire should not have been in the position of offering the assignment to you after you spoke up. That would feel a bit icky to me, too, but you need to speak up.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Try to reframe it a little. New hire was backed up with previous work and was assigned another task that would have normally gone to you had you been in your normal spot. You took on said new task so it could be completed on time while new hire worked on the previous assigned but uncompleted tasks.

    5. Fikly*

      You said everyone involved has agreed the assignments should be ofered to you first. But clearly everyone involved isn’t agreed about this, because they aren’t being offered to you first. So who isn’t agreed, and can you speak to them?

    6. I don't wanna be the office manager!*

      UPDATE: I just spoke with the jr. partner who assigned the choice project to the new hire, framing it as wanting to speak with her directly about the details of this assignment, and wanting to make sure I’m not stepping on toes or causing tension by taking this assignment over.

      She said she’s absolutely fine with my taking the assignment and knows I do great work, she wanted the new hire to have enough work and that she needed it by a certain day and wasn’t sure I had the availability (I assured her I would have it done by the time she needs it). I reminded her that the new hire is still learning the ropes, and perhaps more importantly, we need the new hire to take on some of the excess admin work that my colleague and I have been doing in the office manager’s absence. She seemed very understanding of that. I just hope the message sticks.

      Next up, our little staff team of three needs to meet to talk about workflow. Again, I feel weird taking the lead on this, but my coworker (same position as me, next in line after me) agreed that the new hire does need to start at the beginning, so to speak, and not skip to the head of the line for choice projects.

      Thanks for your input on this, I needed reinforcement that I wasn’t being the wicked witch in this situation. :-)

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      That wasn’t bullying – that was good management. You get the plum project because the junior person hasn’t completed all the work already assigned.
      Think parenting stories: It’s like if your family just bought a ride-on lawn mower and it’s a beautiful late spring day and the teenager volunteers to mow the lawn. But you know she hasn’t finished her homework or done her laundry — so YOU get to pull on a hat and ride around in the sunshine.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Don’t feel “icky” about taking back control of that assignment.

      Do start looking elsewhere — and make use of the ‘holding down the fort’ experience.

      Work that professional certificate!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      The new hire did the correct thing. And it sounds like an insightful move on their part.

      Look for ways to pay the new hire back in the future. Pay back can look like you put a bit more effort into training them or you let them take on some problem solving issues within their own work or it could be something else.

      I am saying look for ways to pay them back because that will help to counter balance any concerns you may have about supposedly being a bully. Take with one hand, give with the other hand. It’s about balance.

  35. Farming life, Farming wife*

    Good morning everyone. I will be graduating with my doctorate in May and have 2 job offers pending. I live, and will be working, in a rural area where there aren’t many people with my similar job. How do I know where to start with a salary negotiation? My previous jobs have had no room for negotiating so it isn’t something I have ever had to do. I have looked on websites that state the average salary for my state but the range that is offered is pretty extreme. I don’t want to lowball myself nor do I want to throw out a number that is too high. Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated as I talk to one company next week. Thanks!

    2. Lalitah28*

      Payscale.com is a good resource; and remember the Google Sheets doc that Alison shared in previous blog post as a resource too. Don’t forget to contact your local librarian for resources on this subject matter as well. It’s your taxes at work.

    3. OtterB*

      Ask your advisor or someone with your graduate program about resources for salary information. I run a salary survey for a particular field that only includes faculty salaries, but I know that some of the industries in the field use the salaries for new professors as a benchmark for what they should be offering.

    4. rageismycaffeine*

      Is this going to be an academic job? I’d look at salary ranges at peer institutions (with some COL adjustments, of course).

    5. MoopySwarpet*

      Another option would be to take the average salary and average cost of living for the state and see where your rural area falls and use that to guide your range.

      Example:
      New York state has an average cost of living of 120% of the US.
      The average salary is $72,800

      Franklin county New York*, the cost of living is 75% (45% less)
      The average salary is $45,700 (37% less)
      *I just realized I used the wrong Franklin county, but the difference isn’t enough I want to redo the math.

      If the salary range for your specific position in Franklin county is $100k-$125k, I’d probably want to be in the $60k-75k range.

      There are a lot of cost of living calculators where you can enter what you make in one place and compare what you’d need to make in a new place. If you can find which location in your state is right at 100% of the sate average, that should be fairly close to make your comparison.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure if you can access their budget or income online. Municipalities and other entities publish their budgets and that might be a way to start making a good guess.

      I live in a rural area and when I look at the pay rates I laugh out loud. I don’t know where they get their numbers from. For my area I would say the going rate is 20% of the figure you see online and the jobs are not full time.

      Perhaps you can google employment ads from similar areas for comparison.

  36. Joanne Pan*

    I posted about this before but I have two questions:
    1) when applying for federal government positions, I usually am competing with other categories, like veterans, military spouses, or students on the student pathways programs. Is there any way I can make my applications more competitive against them?
    2) I have an interview later today, but all my research shows that it’s a company I wouldn’t like to work for – it’s almost eerily similar to my last position with long working hours, leadership doesn’t communicate properly, tight deadlines for turning in reports, and the biggest issue would be that I would have a 3 hour commute in and out of the office (I’m in the Rockville, MD area and the job is a block from the Courthouse metro stop, in Arlington, VA). The only upside is that pay is slightly higher than what I’m making now. My plan is going to go through with the interview, and then the recruiter said they’ll call back at the end of the day, after the interview ends. When would be a good time to email the recruiter and take myself out of the running, and how would I write that?

    1. Policy wonk*

      In the federal government a qualified veteran will alway have preference. That’s a simple fact, nothing you can do about it. Re: the other categories, you can get the job if you are better qualified or a better fit, but first you have to make it to the hiring manager. Be sure you answer every question in the application. Use the exact words from the announcment in the first sentence of your answer, then elaborate on your experience. E.g., the announcement says you must be an expert llama wrangler. Say “I am an expert llama wrangler, as is demonstrated by…” because sometimes the first sort is by computer and the search term might be “expert llama.” You don’t want to miss an opportunity because you said you were a “superior llama wrangler”. Good luck!

      1. Grits McGee*

        Yep, things like veteran status, disability, etc are measured on a point scale, and the folks with the most points are the ones forwarded to the hiring manager. Honestly, the easiest way to get a federal job is to already be a federal employee.

        One thing you can do is to rank yourself as high as you can even tenuously justify on the self-assessment. As my former supervisor used to say, it’s on HR to prove you don’t meet the qualifications of the job.

        1. Joanne Pan*

          Thanks! I’ve heard that, but I’ve also had my former supervisor tell me that it should be easier because “I’m female, a person of color, and already have a CAC card and in the DHS system.”

          I don’t know how true this is, but the Coast Guard, is usually pretty good about hiring former contractors as federal employees. Are there any other agencies that do this?

          1. Grits McGee*

            My experience is really just limited to the humanities-leaning agencies (Smithsonian, Park Service, Library of Congress, National Archives, etc), but in those cases generally, if they’re hiring people as contractors, it’s because they don’t (and probably never will) have the funding for full time permanent positions. I think every agency is different, and some agencies are better funded and more flexible than others. I think also if you have a specialized or sought after degree/skillset, you have a better chance of agencies doing the extra work to recruit you.

    2. 1qtkat*

      I would tell them after the interview. It’s a professional courtesy to take yourself out of the running if you’re truly not interested in accepting any offer should they do so. You’re just wasting they’re time otherwise.

      But before brushing it aside prior to the interview, I would ask questions of the interviewers to see if it’s different from what you’re already assuming. Remember an interview goes both ways.

      1. Fikly*

        +1

        I went into an interview 95% certain I didn’t want the job. But I did the interview because I wanted to ask certain questions to find out if the impression I had gotten from first interview with HR guy was correct.

        Turns out I hadn’t gotten the correct impression, but there were other issues, so I ended up taking myself out of the running, but it was still worth doing the interview to learn more.

        1. Joanne Pan*

          Thank you both for your advice and input!

          I got off the phone with the interviewer, and it solidified my feelings about not wanting to work there. In addition to nearing recompete, they weren’t sure if they would have this contract again whereas with my current position, although the pay is less I have about a year left before the recompete starts.
          I also got the wrong impression of what they do – they work with Infrastructure Protection and do more exercises than anything, so a lot of what I’d mainly be doing is editing, rather than actual writing and editing and I’m trying to move more into rulemaking.

          There were some other issues going on as well, including a recompete and heavy travel, which is what I wasn’t looking for at this time. Other than that, I did learn more about the position and it was worth the phone screen.

  37. Don't worry, I won't get far on foot*

    The fast walking maze question got me thinking about my own work walking dilemma.

    I don’t work in a maze, instead my department has several long stretches of open hallway or walkway. There are three of these stretches between me and the single stall bathroom / breakroom etc., and one or two between me and the places where we pick up or return things we need to do our jobs.

    My department has multiple staff members who walk with assistive devices and several more who generally just walk slowly. I’m significantly younger than the majority and live with someone with legs much longer than mine, so I naturally walk much faster than most of them, even if my standard walking pace isn’t super fast objectively.

    Almost every day I end up behind someone walking slowly on one of these long stretches and struggle with whether or not to pass them, slow down to keep pace with them, or even more awkwardly walk very slowly behind them. They are under no illusion that they walk slower than the average person so for me to stay behind them would definitely be (possibly) weird and clearly intentional. Sometimes its a non-issue (no big deal to pass them when I know we’re not going the same place) but I’m loathe to think I’m cutting them off on their way to the bathroom or microwave or shelf where we pick up things for work, etc.

    What is the etiquette with significantly differing walking speeds in offices anyway??

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Go ahead and pass them – just try to time it so that there is no chance you might be cutting them off (like during a large stretch of wall vs right before a doorway). Also maybe make a small bit of chit-chat “Hey Mike – did you get that file figured out” or “Like the new (insert item thing)

    3. Blueberry*

      Go ahead and pass them. You can say, “Hello” cheerily, or ask them first, “is it ok if I pass you?” or something else. But walking slowly behind them would be much weirder.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Try to scope out what others are doing. If you have cohorts who you especially admire, watch how they handle that and do something similar.

  38. Auntie Social*

    Our small law office has five employees. We have a client who is a ballplayer. One of our associates has been preparing the client for an upcoming hearing. The client gave the associate ten very good tickets to a game. The associate did not tell anyone at the firm about the tickets, and kept them all. To me (and to the senior partner) that’s two tickets per employee, and the associate should have brought the tickets back to the office saying “Dave gave me ten seats for a game this weekend”, and it would be up to the senior partner to say “You’ve been working hard, you keep them”, or “Why don’t you keep four and we will give six to our receptionist—she has sons who love the game and they could never afford these seats”. Senior partner learned of the gift from the client, not the associate. Partner is beside himself with anger at associate’s selfishness, but associate feels he did nothing wrong because the tickets were handed to him. The associate makes six figures and can easily afford tickets. His work is not flawless, which is not helping things. Thoughts??

    1. CTT*

      To be charitable, I wonder if this is an example of “office culture that seems obvious but needs to be taught.” If the client never explicitly said “these are for your office” and the associate hasn’t encountered this before, he probably thought “awesome, tickets for me!”

      Has he shown other indications of not thinking about the team/thoughtlessness? I think that would be more of an indicator on whether this was intentional than the quality of his work.

    2. Picard*

      Gifts from clients to employees are ALWAYS reported to HR in our company. HR/boss determines who gets to keep them. 9 out 10 its the person who received them. Sometimes, due to value or what they are, they are shared or distributed.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      First thought is that most states have ethics rules about accepting gifts of value from clients above agreed to fees.

      I also agree that 10 tickets indicates a group, not individual, gift. 2 tickets would be a gift to the individual attorney. 10 is like a gift basket that is clearly more than one person can eat. But I also think that unless the client made it clear that the tickets were to be shared, this is one of those tricky etiquette sentiments (not even a rule in etiquette books) that could be an honest mistake.

      And I know income inequality in a law office is tough, but the associate may have student loans and a family to support, high rents close to the office, and all sorts of other expenses that affect whether they can comfortably afford baseball tickets.

      1. Auntie Social*

        That’s what partner explained—two tickets is for you, any more than that is for the office. I think he just wanted to appear to be a high roller to his associate buddies. His parents have coin so there are no student loans or anything.
        Partner bought six tickets for the receptionist and her family, and they all wrote thank you notes (except for the littlest one, who drew a picture of the game).

      2. WellRed*

        “most states have ethics rules about accepting gifts of value from clients above agreed to fees”
        For a private company?

          1. NW Mossy*

            For anyone who sells insurance and financial products too. If you’re licensed, you probably have requirements about disclosing gifts you receive and are often barred from accepting them if they’re of significant enough value.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              This. I didn’t sell insurance, but I was an adjuster for four years, and we had to go through annual ethics training and sign a form stating we understood we couldn’t accept gifts from clients over $25 without first reporting it to the company – the company would then determine whether or not we could accept the gift or if it had to be redistributed throughout whatever division we happened to be in.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I don’t know about this state’s law, but my Fortune100 company has policies about accepting gifts of value — we all have to sit through training every two years as a reminder.

      3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Agree. 2 tickets would have been a “single serving” gift/tip, but ten – particularly in the context of such a small office – are a gift for everyone.

        More concerning is how the associate doubled down. Yuk?

    5. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      What are your office’s — and, hell, your industry’s — ethics requirements around gift-giving? In every office I’ve been in, “well the tickets were handed to me!” would be an absolute nonstarter as an argument, because there are specific guidelines regarding how gifts given in the course of a business relationship are handled, and both the failure to report the gift and the failure to handle it appropriately would be disciplinary issues.

      1. CTT*

        I don’t want to speak for OP’s state, but in mine, the ethics rules don’t address gift-giving unless it’s a gift given to you by the client in the will you prepared for them.

    6. Sharbe*

      It seems obvious that they were intended for each employee plus a guest. 10 tickets is an unusual gift to give to just one person. I mean, he could possibly rationalize that 6 or 8 tickets were intended for him because they can’t be split by five employees evenly, but the 10 tickets makes the client’s intention pretty clear to me. Either the associate is really obtuse, or is lying. Either situation is not great.

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      The firm should have a policy about individual lawyers accepting gifts and goods in lieu of payments from clients. There really should be a written procedure for a lawyer in a firm to follow when a client offers or gives a gift, whether it’s truly a gift or intended as some kind of payment. There are regulatory rules in place about this kind of thing (usually a sub-paragraph under the Conflict of Interest rules), and the associate should have spotted this as an issue. “Ten very good tickets” to a professional ball game (baseball?) sounds like several hundred dollars to me. Most professional conduct rules would flag that as a “substantial” gift that triggers examination of the transaction.

      1. Auntie Social*

        This wasn’t in lieu of payment. We have several sports clients who will come in with baseballs, footballs, jerseys, etc. just as a thank you.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Yes, my sentence there is ambiguous (my kingdom for an edit button). I meant something more along the lines of “individual lawyers accepting gifts from clients, or goods in lieu of payments from clients.” Two separate things.

          In any event, the firm should have a policy in place — particularly if you have several clients like this and they often do this.

    8. Marny*

      Why doesn’t partner just let it go this time as an example of the associate not being clear about how things like this should work, but tell the associate that in the future, associates need to let the senior partner know about any gifts from clients (above a certain $$ value should probably be included– no one needs to know about a $5 Starbucks card, for example).

    9. The Rain In Spain*

      The gift was likely intended to be for the firm as a whole. Not okay. Even if I get a gift that’s sent to me personally, I share with my team/larger office as I am not an island! A 5-person office is pretty small, and though I personally would never keep all the tickets for myself (and would probably be grumpy about this), the ship has sailed. Make a policy re gifts moving forward. And if there aren’t general HR-type policies in place, it’s probably a good time to put them in place now to avoid future issues.

    10. HM MM*

      I think it might depend a little bit on what the ballplayer said to the associate when giving them the tickets. Ex: if ballplayer said something like “Thanks so much for helping with all this prep work. I know you’ve been putting in a lot of time and effort and I just wanted to sat thank you for your hard work”, I probably would have kept the tickets too (well, actually, I wouldn’t because I work in a highly regulated industry where that would literally be illegal, but assuming I’m in an industry where that’s not the case…). There are also places where that is culture – gifts “belong” to whoever they are physically given to (unless explicit instructions are given, ala “please distribute these amongst the team”).

      I think at this point what’s done is done. Treat it like a learning experience for everyone – instruct the associate how you want them to handle gifts in the future and take this as an opportunity to come up with an official gifts policy that all employees (and future employees) are made aware of.

      I get why the associate’s personal financial situation makes the situation feel more galling and of course it would have been nice if they had been more thoughtful, but that is all irrelevant really. The work related facts are – associate handled something in a way that you don’t approve of, but that isn’t against the rules and isn’t some some universally known fact. Inform of how he erred and do what you can to prevent this from happening again in the future.

    11. WellRed*

      “Partner is beside himself with anger at associate’s selfishness’

      partner needs to get over himself and accept it as lesson learned. With regards to the associate’s earning six figures, I assume that’s because he bills for it? Not that his income should matter here (and I assume the partner isn’t hurting for cash), but that’s not the reason to be aggravated here.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. It’s the partner’s own fault for not having a clearly stated policy in place and not going over that policy with the attorney at time of hiring.

    12. pancakes*

      I’m pretty sure that would’ve been considered oafish at every firm I’ve worked at — I’ve only ever seen partners distribute tickets, and there’s always been a process for it (e.g., if the team that works directly with the client can’t use the tix, they’ll be distributed via interoffice email on a first come, first served basis).

    13. Bagpuss*

      I think your office needs a gifts policy.

      We have one – broadly, shall gifts below a certain value don’t need to be declared (so if a client gives you a box of chocolates or bottle of wine you can keep it without declaring it)
      Under no circumstances can a gift of money or equivalent (such as gift cards ) be accepted from a client.
      Any other gift has to be logged in the gift register and the compliance officer decides whether it can be retained, and you cannot take it out of the office until they have done so.
      For anything like tickets that would also involve considering whether the gift was personal or for the office and distributing it/them as appropriate.
      I think in a case like this, given the number of tickets, the assumption would be that they were for the office, not for one individual, unless the client giving them expressly said otherwise.
      I do think The associate ought to have checked with a partner and it is totally reasonable to tell them that is what they need to do, moving forward.

    14. Product Person*

      As a partner, I’d be more annoyed by the fact that the gift wasn’t mentioned at the firm at all. Obviously the client expected the partner to mention the generous gift at the next meeting. The fact that the client did mention the gift to the partner confirms they expected some sort if acknowledgment that didn’t come because of the partner’s ignorance. Not a good look fir the employee who kept all tickets to himself!

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Try not to get involved in this, it could turn into quite the bitter battle.

      Having said that though, I think all the tickets should go back to the client and the client be told, thanks but never do this again.

      I have worked in a very strict environment regarding gifts. In my current job I even have to turn down a free cup of coffee. And I have actually turned down the coffee with explanation. The looks on people’s faces are amazing. With this in mind I really don’t have heavy empathy for either side. If they are all going to behave like children, give the tickets back to the client. Problem solved.

  39. Mkt*

    Question for Alison – I sent an email where you estimated 3 week turnaround time (purchased resume help) and it’s been 5 weeks now, any idea of when can expect reply?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I haven’t offered resume reviews in years, so it must have been from a very old offer that you hadn’t used yet! But no one has contacted me about that in months, so I didn’t receive the note. Can you email me directly at alison@askamaager.org? (And a reminder to everyone not to assume I will see comments here! Email me if you need me to see it.)

      1. Mkt*

        Yes, it was from back in 2015 – I took your comment on ‘no time limit’ very liberally. Will email you later, thank you!

        1. Mouse*

          Note that I think there’s a typo in the email address Alison gave you–I think it should be “askamanager” :)

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Well that answers that question… I was wondering myself if that offer was still on the table.
        If you’re game to offer it again for a time, even at a higher price, just let us know!

  40. Delta Delta*

    I’m at a conference where there are so many industry buzzwords being used that I legit don’t know what the speakers are talking about. (And this is my industry!) They’re also quoting experts and saying things like, “you’ve all heard of Walter Warblesworth – who’s heard this quote from him?” And the quotes are things like “innovation is the key to success.”

    I feel like I’m in a parallel universe of some sort.

    1. PX*

      Just lol because I feel like this is such a thing that could happen in many industries. Find other attendees and commiserate – its good for networking!

    3. CL Cox*

      Find a couple of like-minded colleagues also in attendance and make bingo cards. Winner or loser buys the first round of drinks after the end of the day’s events.

    4. rageismycaffeine*

      I have so been there. I just start tuning out and reading articles on my computer or something.

    5. Lora*

      Am actually laughing at my keyboard…my markers of success in my field are, at this late date in my career:
      -A saying widely recognized as attributable to me
      -A theme song
      -A video montage.

      There is a guy I used to work with who had a saying that upset the heck out of a lot of our colleagues, basically calling them stupid, and if you repeat it at any given industry conference someone will instantly say, “Oh, where did YOU work with Steve?!?”

      There was a fashion in the mid-90s to mid-2000s for big corporations to have theme songs and video montages at all-hands meetings. They were exactly as inadvertently hilarious as you can imagine. My employer at the time had one called Excel and Exceed, which has sadly been taken down from YouTube. They had obviously put a lot of production money into it. Truly, I feel for the poor Juilliard and Berklee grads who had to compose that abomination.

      1. Delta Delta*

        They’re making an on-site video montage to show at the end. I sort of can’t wait to see this.

      2. Roy G. Biv*

        My job had a cringe-inducing custom written song, with video featuring employees, for a global meeting, and yes, it was in that mid-90s to mid-2000s timeframe. There has been enough turnover in that global team I doubt anyone else remembers this abomination. I certainly shall never bring it to the light of day.

    6. WellRed*

      I would take up any of the other commenter’s suggestions to make a game of it. I’d also consider keeping this in mind when filling out conference evals.

    8. Delta Delta*

      Now I’m in the lunch session. There’s an awards presentation. I met a nice man from another city who referred to this session as “chicken and clapping.”

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        I did that once with “IP.” If I hear anyone refer to their “IP” one more time, I am going to explode into a shower of rejected designs.

  41. Beancat*

    Whooooffff. I had a DISASTROUS phone interview yesterday (illegally asked my salary history which I choked and answered out of nerves among other problems on both ends) and just – bad bad bad bad BAD all around.

    Then today I find out the person I trained and who covered for me when I had surgery and when I got married just gave notice. That leaves me with 10-15 employees I’ve trained in two years at our site who disliked work at many of our other sites and left. I have one person who I was training but has only been with me for a few days.

    (Plus my misophonia has been set off hard lately because the office whistler is extra cheerful…and I feel like a jerk when the whistling just pierces me because he’s so HAPPY.)

    Just ranting and asking for good vibes this upcoming week (I have Monday off with the kittens and my husband!) Thank you for reading and enjoy your Friday :)

    1. WellRed*

      Call me crabby, but neither singing nor whistling needs to happen in the workplace. I’d ask them to stop. Politely. every. single. time.

      1. Beancat*

        There are actually two whistlers and they’re both so loud it carries from the hallway to my desk, but they don’t go past me so I’m not able to say something in the moment. One started doing it in my vicinity this week and my request slipped out. I just mentioned it was pretty sharp in my ear and asked them if they would mind not doing it.

        Someday I will stop being afraid of politely asking people to stop.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        I used to sit next to a singer who would sometimes whistle. I didn’t mind too much because he did it quietly, and he would make up lyrics that were absolutely hilarious.

      3. Curmudgeon in California*

        My boss sings along with his music from his headphones. This is in an open plan office, and he is off key. I have to put on headphones to mask it out. (We both hate the open plan, but he just shrugs and lives with it.)

    2. Blueberry*

      All good luck.

      And, said as someone who sometimes whistles when I’m doing a task and/or happy — I try to remember not to do so at work to begin with, and if I ever forgot you’d be absolutely entitled to ask me to stop.

  42. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

    Has anyone ever had a co-worker that wanted you to share your Outlook calendar with them with access to “full details”, not just “limited details” or “availability only”?

    My first week at ex-job, one co-worker, actually Self-Appointed Hall Monitor, asked me to share my calendar with her, giving her access to “full details.” Nobody I have ever worked with has ever tried to get me to give them access to “full details” on my calendar, so I asked, “you mean limited details, right?” She pushed back and said no, she meant “full details.”

    This came across as very odd, so I asked another co-worker, who was senior to both of us and he said that everyone usually just shared their calendar with “limited details.” That sounded a lot more reasonable to me, so that’s what I did. Self Appointed Hall Monitor then called me out on it, but I politely, breezily dismissed it.

    Work calendars are no big secret, but why would someone want access to a co-worker’s full details on their calendar? Why wouldn’t it be enough just to know that I’m not available for a call at 2:30pm next Tuesday because I have a doctor’s appointment or because I already have another call or meeting? Self-Appointed Hall Monitor ended up being quite intrusive and acted like everyone’s boss, so I imagine she probably was just a nosy busy body or wanted to be able to decide whether she felt what was on my calendar was more important than whatever she wanted me to do for her. I have a new job now and no longer have to deal with this person, but I still have some PTSD from the experience. :)

    Have any of you ever dealt with a co-worker like that? What is your take on the situation?

    1. Coverage Associate*

      I don’t actually know about “full details” versus “limited details,” but what I share with my secretary about my therapy appointments is just “Dr. D” and the neighborhood. I include the neighborhood so my secretary can have a better idea of what could or couldn’t throw off my schedule. For example, traffic won’t delay me coming back from an appointment in walking distance, but it might for an appointment across town.

    2. LQ*

      Eh, this is a cultural thing I think. I share full details with all the staff who report to me and those who report to them, as well as my boss, most of the people who schedule with me regularly, and peers.

      One department here defaults to all full access, you’d have to turn it off intentionally which would be weird.

      You can still do a private appointment if you need.

      It’s helpful if you’re trying to coordinate across multiple busy calendars and can judge which will be the easiest things for someone to move. If I’ve got a regular meeting with one person, it’s likely easier to reschedule than if I’ve got a single instance meeting with 6 director level folks and external resources. That’s going to be a brutal reschedule. My calendar is usually booked about 2-3 weeks out as are a lot of peers so it’s not unusual to have to see what is on to see what can be bumped or moved. So it’s not a big deal.

      There are definately some calendar stalkers out there, but I’ve found transparency is actually a huge benefit to dealing with them. Sure, you can see my calendar and what I’m doing. Oh, it’s exactly what I’m supposed to be doing and you tried to complain but everyone was like, “Yeah, that’s LQ’s job…” good for you. You’re now on the shit list for everyone instead of just me.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, this basically. I have an insane schedule and the people who report to me need to know if I am on or off campus and if I shift something or if I am tied into it. I don’t put things that are super personal on there anyway.

    3. Policy wonk*

      I share full details with a lot of people whose work overlaps with mine. If they can see that I am meeting with Fergus of Teapots, Ltd on Tuesday, and they have relevant info, they can brief me. E.g., they can tell me that they just refused his special order because of x, so when Fergus asks me the same question I don’t promise to look into it or in some way undermine their ongoing work with him. If there is no similar overlap, then yes, Self-Appointed Hall Monitor is just nosy.

    4. Bananatiel*

      We’re technically required to have public calendars (google calendar instead of outlook here)– I would imagine that came about because at some point someone wanted to monitor how “busy” people actually were. Like, “oh this is just time blocked off to work on a project, not an actual meeting, therefore I will schedule the meeting during that time.”

      Despite the fact that people can see the full details of my calendar including that a meeting is in another building a fifteen-minute walk away… people will still book me for meetings that I can’t physically make it to so I’ve had to literally add travel time blocks to my calendar. So I’m not a fan of the public calendar thing because it clearly has very little actual utility in my office culture.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      If it’s just one person demanding it, it’s weird. But I’ve worked in offices where it is the norm to have full details (though I work in fundraising so most of my calendar appts are donor meetings, events, etc where others in my office can and should know where I am). If I have something private like a medical appointment I’ll just put “Doctor” and write the details somewhere else, or make the appointment “private” so no one can see what it is.

      Either way, this coworker is out of line.

    6. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Yeah, I can see if it’s the company or department culture, or if you’re in a role where people need to know where you are, then definitely give access to the full details.

      In my case, it was just that one person, so it was weird. :)

    7. jef*

      Yeah, our Hall Monitor tries to know EVERYBODY’S business and personal stuff. She’s even speculated on whether a coworker was pregnant due to the timing of her doctor appointments. It’s gross and intrusive. And I have no problem locking down the details in my calendar for anything that I don’t want her to know. Because I know she looks.

    8. MoopySwarpet*

      The only reason I could possibly see needing this is if there could be a possibility you could reschedule something to accommodate someone with a more challenging schedule. However, that can’t be so common that a quick call to you when it happens say “CEO can only meet on Tuesday at 11 or Thursday at 3. Your calendar is showing unavailable at that time, but would you be able to reschedule one?”

      I’d be annoyed if I was asked to move my lunch from 11 to 12 because lunch isn’t as important as the CEO. Ask me and I probably can/will, but demand it and I’d be resentful. This person soounds like the bosy demanding sort, not the asking sort.

    9. Middle Manager*

      We very frequently share full details. It’s helpful pretty often. People just mark individual events private if they are confidential, HR related, personal/medical appointment, etc. I’m sure every place is different on this, but I wouldn’t say it’s a blanket problem to request full details.

    10. FlyingAway*

      In my office we all have to share full details with each other as we do home visits. People write private appointment in their calendar if they have things they don’t want publicly known but to be honest, everyone knows everyone’s business anyway!

    11. Amethystmoon*

      Don’t use your work calendar for stuff you want to keep private. Put it on your cell phone or physical calendar at home.

  43. Pink Pie*

    I’ve signed a noncompete in Florida. It’s for making Rooibus tea, and I’ve been looking at producing Earl Grey tea. However, since the company I work for also produces Earl Grey, I’ve found that companies have been unwilling to touch me. I’ve offered to provide them a copy of my non-compete. Any idea of wording to address this when it’s come up. My hours are being cut in the Rooibus section, and I need to earn more money.

    1. CL Cox*

      You probably want to consult a lawyer, to make sure that your non-compete says what you think it does and that you are allowed to seek work in a different field that your company also services. You can also look into your company’s litigation history. Maybe they have a reputation for raising a stink every time an employee leaves for any related/parallel field and these other companies just don’t want the hassle. It can take a lot of time and money to defend against a lawsuit, even if you’re in the right.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I second the advice to have an employment lawyer look at your contract – a lot of noncompete clauses have been found to be invalid in court. Companies like to write them so broadly as to prevent employees from leaving to seek work anywhere else in the industry, when the intent of a legally valid noncompete is to protect specific intellectual property. I’m not an expert but I remember reading that unless you’re an executive, there’s a really good chance a noncompete would be found invalid for your position.

      Recently a fast food company (I think maybe Jimmy John’s?) was defeated in court for trying to claim their sandwich making technique was intellectual property so their low-wage, hourly sandwich makers couldn’t go work for any other fast food company – utterly ridiculous.

  44. Data Analyst*

    I started a new job six weeks ago. I had posted on here about whether to leave my previous job and got some great advice…unfortunately I just picked a bad place to hop to. It’s kind of toxic and very stressful and people work crazy long hours. I’m also finding that certain aspects of the job – billable hours, where you are allocated a set number of hours for a particular project in a month and if you are going to go over, let someone know right away, except I don’t know if I’m going to go over because I don’t yet know what all else I’ll do for this project in the month, etc etc – trigger my OCD intrusive thoughts. I’m having panic attacks and stomach aches every day…anyway you get the picture.
    My question is: I actually attempted to resign two weeks in. I was talked into staying. I was told they could make the job less stressful by taking me off a particular project. I decided to give it a shot. It was less stressful for a couple days and then people noticed that I had open hours and started loading me up again. I have not actually had a check in with my manager since the resignation and then un-resignation (which I bristle at – no weekly check ins scheduled until just now, because she forgot…wouldn’t you want to be extra sure to schedule those with someone who had tried to resign already??). I’ve been applying for other jobs and have a phone interview on Monday and probably other requests coming soon. I also assume my manager will ask how I’m feeling about my decision to stay at our first real check in, next week. I’m sure the smart move is to claim everything is fine, get a new job, give notice…but since the door is sort of open for me not liking it there and wanting to leave, I feel like if she asks I want to say “actually I’ve decided it’s not for me, I’m looking for other jobs, I figured I should let you know so you can start looking to replace me now, and I can leave either when I get a new job or when you find someone, whichever comes first” …I know it’s risky but I will feel bad claiming it’s fine and then leaving, and I’m also really dreading have to sneak around and have “appointments” especially when our schedules are so tightly monitored. It helps that I had multiple offers when I picked this job and I’m pretty confident that I can find something else. Thoughts??

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      How about a middle path – ‘It got better, but then people started handing me projects again, and now I’m struggling again. Can you help manage the pipeline?’

      That gives her a realistic view, maybe some short-term relief, but is less risky than ‘this sucks and I’m actively hunting.’ She *may* still decide to fire you, but it’s less likely than if you admit you’re hunting.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. Also, you never know – she may pull back some of the extra work you were given and redistribute it to others so that you can focus on the most critical things for your position. But yes, keep looking for something else. It’s insane to me that they would have loaded you up with this much work in your first six weeks and your manager is just leaving you out to dry – no daily or weekly check-ins? No training?

        1. Data Analyst*

          Thank you. No, no real training. No onsite HR, and my onboarding was a PowerPoint about timekeeping and holidays and so on, and then a little off the cuff rundown of “these are the people in the office that are passive aggressive…and these are the people where if you cross them once, they’ll never forget it” …that’s part of the toxic atmosphere I referenced.

  45. GrumbleBunny*

    Relatively new manager here. I’m looking for advice on managing an employee who you’ve absolutely had it up to HERE with. Most of my team is great, but I’ve got one team member who is just bad in so many ways, some of which are her fault and some of which are not (she was promoted above her skill set to a team that was severely undermanaged).
    I’m finding it extremely difficult to manage/develop her because it’s like she can never do anything right: in addition to doing her job poorly, her attendance is terrible (average 6 absences per month), her professionalism is lacking, she has no initiative and in fact without extreme micromanagement won’t even perform her assigned duties, she reacts passive-aggressively to any kind of feedback, and I’ve observed her lying about work related things on several occasions.
    I can put her on a PIP, but the role has been so vaguely defined for the entire time she’s been here that I really need to make an attempt at training her to perform the duties I need her to do before I feel it would be fair to do that. Meanwhile she does something almost every day that irritates me to the point where I feel like it’s the wrong day to approach that.
    Any and all advice would be fantastic. Thanks!

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I once got handed a Problem Employee (long story) and what I did was write up an expectations for the role document – covered attendance, responsibilities, working with others, etc. I set up a meeting to go over with them as part of the handover process, and we both revised & signed that document.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        This. My husband inherited a problem employee and did exactly all of this. Problem employee did a complete 180 and ended up taking over my husband’s position when we relocated. Sometimes all it takes is making expectations clear – and if it doesn’t work, then you have your documentation for the PIP and eventually dismissing the employee, if it comes to that.

        As for being irritated, this is part of your job as a manager, unfortunately. You’re going to have to learn to handle things professionally and without rancor or irritation. If you have a halfway decent HR department, they should be able to help you with that – and with your other issues, too!

      2. Kathenus*

        Yes, all of this. Depending on your work situation, the one additional thing to consider is to make sure that you are holding all employees to whatever standards you are holding problem employee. When I was managing an incredibly bad employee “up or out” (HR’s phrasing, which I loved), it was also a union situation, and they were very clear that I while I could track her performance more closely than non-problem employees, I couldn’t hold her to standards that were different than others so that I wasn’t violating the union contract.

        I’d also suggest picking 2-3 top areas where her behavior is problematic, and which have easy metrics to track (like attendance, completing assignments), and focus on those versus a huge laundry list. Good luck.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          +1 on picking a small number of goals to start, and adding to that list only if/when she improves on the first ones.

      3. GrumbleBunny*

        Thank you! I’ve been working on this document for a couple of weeks now and plan to roll it out to her next week.

    2. Lalitah28*

      Guiding questions to help you out:
      Define her role: What is the skill set to perform this job satisfactorily? List them and have your HR manager review them (if you have one), plus a high-performing/well-regarded direct report that can validate the job description and performance standards and, if at all possible, your own boss.

      Even without defining her role right, can you or have you given her a verbal warning about the little things like arriving on time, acting professional, reactions to feedback, and not lying about work related issues? Start documenting this and meeting with her about these things, emailing her confirmation of your conversations about this with clear consequences for misbehavior.

      Once you’ve defined what her role is, can you have a conversation about training her with your other direct reports who have done the job and your boss to see if it’s feasible for them to train her or if it’s better to cut your losses and recruit someone new? Document what her role is with this information and have your HR manager review them (if you have one and get sign-off from your boss.

      Once documented what her role is, have a conversation with her that her role has evolved and NOW requires what you’ve documented. Ask if she’s on board and can perform the duties. If she says yes, then run a probationary period of 90 days to measure her actual adherence to the new role that has been clearly defined. Give all feedback in person and follow-up with an email.

      That’s the process. Taking short-cuts hurts feelings and gives people fodder to become litigious. Maybe she also wants to be fired so she can collect unemployment.

      1. GrumbleBunny*

        I have given her verbal warnings several times on the behavioral issues. We’ve had conversations about all of these things, both privately and with HR in the room. She always cries and acts like a victim.

        HR advocates putting her on a PIP, but since her role was brand new when she was hired and she’s the only one in it (she’s the admin supporting a team of engineers) it was never clearly defined. I don’t really feel right putting her on a PIP until I’ve given her an opportunity to try to meet a written set of expectations. I’m working hard to define the exact expectations of the role so I can get this rolled out to her soon.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          You’re being incredibly thoughtful here – I hope that once you and problem employee talk and you clearly define her role, she shapes up.

        2. Nor anonymous because personnel*

          You can and possibly should put people on a PIP for behavior. Our fabulous operations manager just terminated one person last week for unprofessional behavior (who was on final written warning before that) and the tone of the WHOLE TEAM is better and more cohesive. We are down two staff and more work is getting done and it’s nicer to be here. Performance is not the only metric.

        3. Amethystmoon*

          Is it possible she had a bad childhood? Not everyone’s was shiny and happy clappy. Speaking as someone who grew up both being bullied and had a toxic parent. Yeah, there is an expectation not to take things personally, but it can be very challenging for young adults to do that if they were bullied as kids. Is there some sort of counseling or therapy you can advise her to go to?

          1. Avasarala*

            This seems pretty speculative and even if it bears out, doesn’t change the fact that her behavior is unacceptable. You don’t get a pass on unacceptable behavior just because you have a good reason for it. Therapy isn’t going to solve her lack of skills at work.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      One thing I have done to help handle my irritability was to ask myself, “If a good/likable employee did this, what would my response be?” And I went problem by problem with this question.

      What would I say to a good employee:
      about attendance: “The company requires that we be here. We have x sick days per year, once that is used up the policy is [state whatever is in the policy here].
      about lying: “The company will not tolerate lying. It is fine to say you have fallen behind on something. It is not fine to say you have it done when it is not done. If you have fallen behind you need to tell me the moment you realize it so we can work out a solution.”
      (Yeah, I know good employees don’t do this stuff. So I pretend I have a good employee who is having a bad day or a rough spot.)
      about performing assigned duties: “The company expects us to perform routine duties without having to be prompted by others. So far the duties you have been assigned are A, B, C and D. You are expected to do this without having someone to watch over you to make sure they are done. Failure to do this duties will result in a write up.”

      Notice my heavy reliance on “the company expects us” and notice my heavy reliance on the use of the word “us”. This is so the employee cannot say she is being singled out. Sometimes I would say, “I have had to say this to others also”, if this is true. Sometimes I would say, “I, myself, have to follow this rule.”

      Another thought I had that was very helpful was to consider those who had to put up with this crap. If I could not find it in myself to talk to the employee, I still had to do it on behalf of those who worked with the employee. Sometimes it’s much easier to do something “for others” than it is to do it “for ourselves”.

    4. Middle Manager*

      Empathy to you. I was you two years ago. My best advice would be to move on it timely. My biggest regret is that I didn’t. I had reasons, I was new to being a boss, my boss discouraged me (she’s part of the reason the bad employee was allowed to get so bad), etc. But now that I have more confidence and more support from my chain of command, one of the questions I’m running into is, well, if she’s so bad, why didn’t you do something two years ago. If HR is supporting you and feels like it’s okay to move forward on a PIP, I wouldn’t put that off.

  46. peach*

    Looking for some advice from the kind commentariat…

    I started a new position about 8 months ago. It was a semi-newly created position. They’d had someone in my role several years ago, but when they left, they decided to eliminate the position. Since I’ve started, I’ve found that I don’t have much to do. I get the feeling that my supervisor doesn’t want me here—either because they see me as a threat to their job, or because they simply don’t have time to manage me.

    The tasks they assign me are extremely simple and take me 10-20 minutes tops to complete. After that, there’s nothing really for me to do. I’ve tried asking for more work, but they just assign me more extremely simple tasks. One of the duties I was told I would take on when I was hired was managing a shared inbox where we receive requests. They have continued to own that inbox, going so far as to complete tasks that should have been forwarded to me on the weekends or after hours. Recently, I’ve noticed that we’ve been receiving very few requests. I think people must be sending requests directly to my supervisor’s inbox now. I’ve tried coming up with my own projects/ideas and presenting them to my supervisor, but they seem extremely disinterested.

    I recently had a skip meeting with my grandboss. GB framed it as a six-month-ish check-in, but I think they set it up because they’ve been able to tell that I’m unhappy in the role. During the meeting, it came out that my supervisor was still managing the shared inbox, and GB looked surprised/disappointed. I was pretty hesitant to share anything too critical with GB—not because I don’t trust GB, but more because I don’t exactly trust my supervisor. (I’ve worked at dysfunctional orgs before, where speaking up about supervisors during skip meetings made them hate me and made my work life 100x harder.) I tried to keep my feedback to GB general—focused on more systematic process changes that could help things. But I did also mention that I feel like I’m not very clear on what my role is supposed to be.

    The extra snag that came up during the meeting with GB is: it turns out GB has no idea what my supervisor does. GB thought that they were a teapot developer, but they’re really more of a teapot generalist (much less technical knowledge than a developer). GB’s background isn’t technical at all, so they’re really in the dark about how fundamental the difference is between teapot developers and generalists. So, even though GB seems very open and supportive, I’m not sure how much guidance they’re going to be able to give my supervisor to allow me to take on more work.

    So, I guess my question is: should I have been more direct about the issue (that I think my supervisor is purposely withholding information and not giving me work to do) when talking to my grandboss? I’m not really sure how much they can do, given their fundamental lack of understanding about what my supervisor does.

    1. PX*

      Your GB sounds generally decent. If they actually are generally decent and seem like they wouldnt retaliate or allow your boss to retaliate (important distinction!) – I’d give it a couple of weeks and then have another meeting if things havent changed and be much more blunt.

      But its also about the desired outcome – what actions can they actually take to change things? If nothing happens, what will you do? I would try to make sure any future conversation is slightly more direct in terms of: “I would like to see X change, how can we make that happen?”

      1. peach*

        That’s good advice. I think I’m struggling with coming up with concrete, actionable requests to present to my grandboss. I think that has a lot to due with being kept in the dark by my supervisor, so I don’t know what our team’s priorities are. But I’ll see what I can come up with in the next few weeks if nothing changes between now and then.

        Thanks!

        1. PX*

          In terms of concrete things, I’d start by looking at the job description for the role if you have one, or if you dont, try and go back to what was discussed during the interview/onboarding process. I think yesterdays post about not being hired to do the job you were meant to do has a lot of similarities to this situation, and there is some good advice in the comments.

          If you feel like GB needs additional context for what is happening I say dont be afraid to provide it! As people go higher up, its so common to find out they dont actually have any idea of what is happening 2 rungs below them and what problems are developing. And because people are too afraid to raise them, they go unchecked when sometimes an honest conversation can make a world of difference! The key is usually to phrase it in some business speak so it doesnt sound like you are attacking your boss and more like you want to be more efficient and add more value to the company. I like to use words/phrases like you need clarity on roles and responsibilities, or perhaps that you would like to propose a better or different process (aka one where you are actually utilised!).

          1. peach*

            Oh, I somehow missed that post from yesterday. I’m reading the comments there and they’re very much resonating. Thanks for pointing me there!

            And also good advice on checking on the job description. I guess I’m doing the job I was hired for, just doing a lot less of it (in terms of volume) than I expected. Like, I thought I’d be doing X, Y, and Z weekly, but instead I’ve done X, Y, and Z only 1-2 times. That might be a helpful place to start further convos with the grandboss.

  47. Fall of the House of Gushers*

    Retail store owners, how do you prefer that vendors approach you with new products? I recently started an art business with the idea of approaching furniture stores, galleries, and boutiques, but I’m kind of new to this and I’d appreciate advice on where the line is between “polite persistence” and “being obnoxious.”

    2. Bananatiel*

      I have a friend that’s a painter and has had arrangements with certain businesses like furniture stores, etc in the past. I think it helped a lot when she was actually a customer of the store/cafe/boutique (kind of obvious, I guess), and she wasn’t shy about mentioning that she was a painter always looking to exhibit her work in unique places. She kept a folder on her phone as an easy-access portfolio along with business cards. Her experience has been that if people liked her work they were often motivated enough to reach back out to set something up.

    3. SunnySideUp*

      My nephew, a talented artist, follows galleries on Instagram, comments, goes to gallery openings… and has been successful in making contact with the owners that way.

    4. RetailRecruiter*

      We prefer that they not, mostly. In my city, there are curators who put art up in local cafes and restaurants. I’d recommend looking to see if there is something similar in your town.

  48. Berry*

    We have accrued PTO (through ADP) at my company. I get 15 days for the year, but if I take a 2 week vacation in the spring I’ll be in the negative until I earn it back. My coworker left last year in October and had not fully earned back her PTO when she left, and our HR told her she had to pay them the money back. If she hadn’t done it by January 1, they would’ve withheld her W2.

    Has anyone dealt with anything like this before? It sounds fishy but is it legal to have to pay back my employer if I leave before balancing out my accrued PTO?

    2. Natalie*

      It’s generally not illegal to require the employee to pay back a negative leave balance. It is illegal to withhold their W2 over it, however.

      1. Berry*

        Thanks! The W2 part I wasn’t sure about (because I heard it second hand) – I’m not sure if they would’ve full out withheld it but they definitely would’ve made it a lot harder to get.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can’t withhold a W2.

      But you can make people pay back “advanced” pay, which is what happened here. She essentially took a draw on her salary, since she hadn’t earned it yet and it was in the form of PTO.

      I’m mostly annoyed they just didn’t withhold it from her final check but maybe it wasn’t possible. That’s what we do. If someone gives their notice and works out their two weeks. Again, it’s a pay advance and not wage theft because they’re paid for what they’re owed.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        We had someone leave who was significantly in the PTO hole and essentially didn’t get his last couple paychecks and still owed the company.
        Company was prepared to write off the amount if he didn’t pay up though because it was an arrangement they allowed as an interim measure while waiting for his FMLA to kick in. They allowed him to go negative up to the amount of his annual accrual (i.e. he could go negative up to 120 hours) and he quit mid-year so had only earned about half of that and took several FMLA unpaid days during his notice period (gave 3 weeks notice and only worked 2-3 days of each week so his pay didn’t amount to the nearly 2 weeks he still owed).
        Shockingly his new employer had no idea of his attendance issues.*

        *I wrote ages ago about this person because they seemed to abuse the FMLA/unpaid leave arrangement they negotiated by doing things they knew were triggers for their condition (completely optional events that they have openly stated were triggers and telling stories about how every time they attend these things they are out of commission for 3-5 days) and then attempting to get unpaid vacation to attend additional events which meant that they would miss 2 days of work for the event plus an additional 3+ days of FMLA leave.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah yes. This kind of person who navigates the system to get their PTO and then bounce without actually giving the company a chance to recoup is a real risk that you take by letting people go negative.

          Thankfully nobody has done that here but it’s very much a thing we’re aware of can happen. We will write it off in the end but yeah, it really turns the situation into the whole “we can’t have anything nice” scenario.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        That’s exactly how my brother’s last employer handled it (taking his advanced PTO out of his final check). That makes the most sense; otherwise, the separated employee could just walk away and never pay it back and the employer would have little recourse, outside of a lawsuit (which could potentially cost more than the employee’s salary), to get it back.

    4. CL Cox*

      It’s illegal for them to withhold a W2 past the January 31 deadline. I’m actually suspicious that that is not what was said. They might have refused to send it out earlier than the deadline, which is perfectly legal, but they can get in a lot of trouble with the IRS if they hold them beyond the deadline.

      As far as demanding repayment, that is super common. Employers are basically offering employees the courtesy of using some of their time (there are usually limits on how much) before it’s earned, but they are supposed to spell out their policy on that (in the employee handbook, contract, whatever they use to convey policies) and make it available for review prior to an employee using that time.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        If ADP is the one tracking the time, they most likely also display the employee’s paystubs and will, therefore, have the employee’s W2 in the system for download, so the threat is empty anyway.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Er, if they advance you on your salary (which is basically what being in the red on PTO is), and you leave while still in the red, why on earth would it be unreasonable for them to expect you to balance up? If they owe you money and you leave, wouldn’t you expect them to pay it to you?

  49. Hedgehog Festival*

    I’m not sure what advice I’m really looking for but am sort of thinking out loud. I’ve been with my current company for nearly 4 years now. My role has changed a lot in good ways since I started but since my direct manager left early last summer it’s been in limbo with not much direction. They have now decided to hire someone new in his position and they are due to start in April.
    They have been amazingly flexible for me over the last year as my mother was ill and hundreds of miles away and they allowed me to work from home/have extra time off. This is likely to be at least partially why my role is not very clear. The other reason is that we have a new CEO and he has chosen to change the direction of the organisation (to one I’m not hugely enthusiastic about) and there have been a lot of staff changes until things are decided it’s not clear what I will be doing.
    My mother died late last year and I’m now back to being around full time but worn out and with a lot of admin to do around that. Overall I don’t know what will happen to my role and I’m now trying to decide if I should stick it out (I feel I owe them for the flexibility and can still get the flexibility I need now/there *might* be good opportunities coming up) or if I should move on.
    I probably wouldn’t have looked to move on just yet but have been approached, by a different former manager, about about another job. It’s a larger organisation and would be a promotion but not really more money. It would be a lot of work and possibly stressful and I can’t decide if I should apply or not.

    1. Kathenus*

      I’m of two minds. First on the other job, you don’t have a lot to lose by applying and learning more, but be really honest with yourself about the pluses and minuses (since you already have concerns on workload, stress, lack of more money) to evaluate it objectively. Second, on current job, from just the information you’ve included here my thought is I don’t see a lot of downside in waiting until the new manager starts and gets up to speed, to see how you like things after the changes settle down. Barring of course the new job opportunity ending up being something you’re really excited about versus settling for to move on from a position that’s been good for you and which you may not have enough information about right now to know if it’ll stay good with the new direction and management.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Start selectively applying to jobs. Think of it as seeing what opportunities you have, since you don’t have options until you have offers.

    3. Lalitah28*

      I advise you to look out for YOURSELF FIRST because companies will never hesitate to let you go, especially in cases where “they’re going in another direction.” Stop guilting yourself for the flexibility they gave you during your mother’s illness because that’s the DECENT thing to do. Start revising your resume, polish your LinkedIn profile, and work your network in anticipation of any surprises. And be proactive in talking to your manager about what’s going to happen to your role. If they don’t know, that’s a sign that (a) they really haven’t thought about it; or (2) you might just be on the limbo next to laid off list because they don’t know what to do with you.

      Always be prepared.

  50. Bunny*

    Valentine’s Day!

    OK, is it just me or is it super, super weird that companies celebrate Valentine’s day? There are hearts all over our office but there are a lot of single employees, some very unhappily. Plus people that might be in unhappy relationships. Last year I had a co-worker ask me what I was doing with my husband for Valentine’s day, I responded in kind about his as I knew he had a long term partner. He informed me that they had in fact very recently broken up, or more to the point, been broken up with.

    It seems like a lot of companies celebrate Valentine’s day but it strikes me as a minefield that should be avoided.

    1. WearingManyHats*

      I got kiddie valentines and let people pick one out of a bowl if they are so inclined. Everyone picked one and enjoyed the gradeschool throwback, complete with suckers! But yeah, anything else is dangerous territory.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is cute; I wouldn’t mind it. Since you’re making it optional, that’s less pointed to the unpartnered, plus those valentines tend toward friendly as opposed to romantic. Anything else, nah.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s the same with any holiday or theme really, it can always touch someone’s nerves. Each one can be a landmine to someone at any given time.

      But I don’t shy away from anything because they may be difficult for a few, when it’s just decoration in the end. I was long term single for the majority of my life and had a lot of issues surrounding it. I also hate the fact people treat Valentine as the only time of year you show your loved ones you love them. But I do like hearts and pink, so I just think it’s a cute theme in the end.

      My partner and I don’t celebrate. Every year all we do is say “Hey, guess what. I loved you yesterday and I’ll love you tomorrow too, but hey Happy Valentine…” then when asked what we’re doing, I say “Nothing, we don’t celebrate. What about you?!” and move on. I don’t bring it up because of the conversation you mentioned but at the same time…your coworker asked you despite the fact they were going through a breakup. They weren’t that mad about the holiday if that’s the case, I’d say.

      Ignore it. I ignore it when they talk about March Madness because I don’t care about basketball. Sports bring up a lot of issues with a lot of people as well from being bullied in school for not participating mainly but we don’t ban talk about them. It’s really only as big of a deal as you make it to be.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        My spouse and I don’t celebrate it either. We do, however, celebrate Cheap Candy Day on Feb. 15! I aspire to reinact the scene from Indecent Proposal where Demi Moore rolls around on the pile of money on the bed, except in boxes of cherry cordials.

    3. E*

      My office treats it similarly to an employee appreciation day. A couple of managers brought in breakfast snacks and candy to share. Less on the hearts side of the holiday, more like grade school where we didn’t want anyone to feel left out on the goodies.

    4. Youth*

      I honestly really like it, but I’m a huge sucker for Valentine’s Day. I’ve gone out of my way to celebrate every year since I was a little kid, even though I’ve been single my whole life (until this year). My company’s buying us waffles today. I’m super excited.

        1. Youth*

          I did, thanks! The waffles were amazing and my boyfriend and I had a fun date after work. :) And my family and my roommates and I all exchanged candy.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Only the women?

        That’s as obscene as when people give “all the women” flowers for Mother’s Day. Yuck.

    6. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      My company does this. Three of my coworkers ended their long term relationships this year (one was a 10-year marriage!) and… they don’t care. And there’s me, a super unlucky person, and I just don’t care (??). HR sent a “love is love” card, but the catering company in charge of the cafeteria went really overboard, with heart-shaped decorations on the tables and windows, pink-sprinkled desserts, and cardboard Cupids.

    7. Autumnheart*

      I don’t think it’s weird to celebrate a national holiday. So what if people are unhappy with their relationship status? That’s their business. That being said, I think the way my company celebrates it is an example of how to do it appropriately. A ton of people wore red to work, there are heart-shaped cupcakes in the cafeteria, some coworkers brought in a box of candy, or gave out kiddie valentines (I got a dinosaur). The coffee shop is offering a $2 off coupon today.

      I think it would be weird to create a quasi-romantic tie-in, like bringing flowers for only the women, or offering events obviously directed at couples while ignoring single people. But just a general Valentine’s Day theme? Nah.

        1. Autumnheart*

          Not in the sense that you get the day off, but it certainly is recognized and acknowledged as a holiday, just like Halloween.

          1. Fikly*

            National/public holidays are a specific thing though, regardless of whether or not you get the day off (if you work not for the federal government).

            And in many offices it would be weird to celebrate Halloween.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I used to work in an office that celebrated Halloween. The job sucked overall but that was awesome.

    8. Stormy Weather*

      I had candy from my boss and her boss waiting for me at my desk. There was also an option to spend a few dollars to send a coworker a Valentine for charity. No decorations, which I appreciate. My ex got married last year. I don’t really want to see hearts and flowers (we broke up two years ago. I don’t want him back, but the marriage hit me hard).

      I usually spend today saying Happy Massacre Day but I haven’t been here long enough for my office mates to know me and my quirky sense of humor.

      1. Autumnheart*

        I had a Hilariously Unfortunate Incident with a long-ago BF, who fancied himself an aspiring poet, and liked to perform at open-mike events around town. To make a long story short, he surprised me with a 5-minute long erotic poem that was sort of about me, which he recited in front of 40 people. It was like something out of a Seinfeld episode.

        After that, Valentine’s Day became No Erotic Poetry Day for many years, but I still get mileage out of the story.

    9. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      My old office had a volunteer make a valentine for folks in nursing homes who didn’t have family locally. It was really fun and you got to take craft breaks which is a nice change. I thought it was a very sweet way to acknowledge the holiday

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        My son’s classroom did this yesterday! They wove little heart baskets and asked the parents to donate a few bags of wrapped candies and distributed them to a local assisted living facility and nursing home. I thought it was a wonderful idea

    10. Nessun*

      We had a Valentine’s treat on Wednesday – mostly it’s because they pick a holiday each month to order in goodies, and this time picked Valentines. Next year, they might pick a different thing; it’s pretty random. Weirder, my apartment building gives out Valentines…no, I don’t need a card, I give you money for a place to live, back off.

    11. JustaTech*

      Some folks from the social committee just came around with little paper bags of cheap candy that were closed with a gold heart sticker. That’s it.
      Mmm… sugar.

    12. Anon for this one*

      I don’t know of any companies here (UK) celebrating V Day “as a company”, but there are a lot of “triggers” still like happily partnered employees receiving massive bunches of flowers at the office … that they then monopolize one of the sinks in the communal toilets to keep the flowers hydrated.

      Personally if I were in a position of power I’d probably say or do something with these employees as it is basically a “harassment” situation in the office. “hahahaha I have a partner and we’re living the happy couples life”, etc etc, rubbing it in the noses of single people. Especially (and it does apply concretely in my workplace) when they know they are other people who have just been through a messy divorce and so on.

      I feel like anything that’s just “someone living their personal life” gets a pass, no matter how insensitive their behaviour is towards others.

      And yet there are some situations where, say, someone has lost a child so it gets dictated (rightly! Not that we should need it!) not to make any mention of children and family life in the vicitiny of this person for a while.

  51. WearingManyHats*

    A while back I mentioned a former individual contributor employee who was termed, but promised good references, but was interviewing for management positions. Well, he asked his former boss to write a linkedin review, but was mad that his boss didn’t exaggerate his contributions. He’s falsified his job title on linkedin as well! How does he think this is going to turn out?!

      1. WearingManyHats*

        No, actually! Mostly an inability to grow with the needs of the role/position or take direction.

  52. cubone*

    Do any of you recall the letter Allison answered from the person whose boss included weekly mental health check ins in their team meetings (I’d link, but am having trouble on mobile)?

    Our terrible department lead just implemented the EXACT same thing. Obviously the AAM advice was great and raised what an issue this is and suggested pushing back with colleagues, if you think they feel similarly.

    The problem I’m having with this advice is 1) staff seem thoroughly split – some LOVE sit and others loathe it, and I’m afraid of increasing that division or making the lovers feel like it’s been taken away because of some naysayers. One of the lovers is my direct report, further complicating the issue.
    2) Dept Lead has a terrible, horrible track record of responding to any feedback that isn’t glowing (whether about her or her projects). I know I should try to advocate and raise the issue, but I just don’t trust that she’ll understand this issue as anything other than a personal criticism of her leadership. I’d go to HR but she keeps reiterating constantly that she wants to hear feedback on the idea (even though feedback is clearly apprehensive at best and again, there’s many past examples to believe she won’t respond professionally to feedback). I thought about sending her the AAM post as a “just something to think about”, but it feels like it might seem cowardly over saying something in person.

    Not sure if I have a question or am just venting, but any thoughts are helpful.

    1. CatCat*

      On #1, division will be increased if this goes forward. I am not sure why it is worse for the people to love it to feel like something is being taken away than it is for people who loathe it to feel so imposed, personally intruded upon, and possibly like they have to put their own mental health at risk.

      Why can’t the people who love this reserve a conference room at lunchtime like once or twice per month and those who want to join in can do so? That seems like it could be a way for everyone to get what they want without imposing on those who don’t want to participate.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Send her the post. But don’t just send it as “something to think about” — that’s not direct enough and feels very passive. Say something like, “I was really uneasy about this and went searching online to see if there was anything on best practices in this regard and I found this, which I think summarizes my concerns with it really well.”

  53. ItalianBunny*

    Here’s a question, as i really would love how others would get through this:
    PA/AA/OfficeManager at a small branch of a larger multinational firm.
    I’m in EU, and currently on a Temp-to-Hire contract, started 5 months ago.
    No official performance reviews but i’ve had only glowing feedback then since and my contract is up to end in a month.
    My boss told me that she would love to keep me here and she’s waiting the Powers-that-Be (abroad) to tell her if she can extend me a Perm position or another Temp one.
    I am personally in a situation where another Temp contract would mean me living with my parents (at 36) and not being able to get a house for myself and, after a lifetime of Temp jobs (Temp is very common in my country and almost every-single-listing has at least an initial Temp duration which almost NEVER becomes PERM -thanks economy-) i would love to get a long stay in this job ( i LOVE here!) …what shall i do? I’m sick with anxiety over this and idk what i am gonna say to my Boss if the she can’t advocate for me to be Permanent.
    Advice?

    1. Bob*

      Unfortunately I think the only thing you can do here is
      1. Have another conversation with her and make it super clear that this is your first choice place to work and you want to stay and become permanent. Ask what exactly needs to happen/change in order for becoming permanent to take place. You want concrete steps here, not vague promises.
      2. Figure out for yourself what you will do if the answer you get is unclear or you are offered another temp contract. Will you job-hunt? Do you just need to make peace with it? Make changes in your personal life? Change industries altogether?

      This is a sucky situation to be in (I’ve also had periods of being on temporary contracts, and while I was lucky that it was early in my career so I didnt have too many responsibilities, eventually the uncertainty became really unpleasant, and I found a new job in a slightly different industry to be able to go permanent.)

  54. Not My Normal Account*

    I have anxiety, the not-pretty, not-solved-by-yoga type — the intrusive thoughts, the lack of sleep, the potentially scary behaviors type. It’s usually pretty well managed, but has definitely been racheting up over the last month; this week I haven’t slept because of a work thing and last night I had an anxiety attack and today I can barely focus and am still intermittently crying. I know some of my coworkers (we’re remote) have picked up on it, including my boss, and I have activated the appropriate support structures ( called up the ole therapist, planned to work from the beach for a few days, let my close friends and family know that I’m not OK right now, searched for a doctor in my new town to get the appropriate meds) but I think I will need to have a couple of days off, here and there, over the next couple of weeks for realigning. We’re completely understaffed right now and I’m going for a promotion in the current review cycle. I have way too much work but that’s not what’s causing it–it’s because of where my underlying thoughts/behavioral patterns are now and I really do wish it was happening at a better time (actually, I wish it wasn’t happening at all, but whatever). What’s the best way to talk to my coworkers and ask for time but also not for them to think/hear that it’s because of my current workload? I know that it is possible/accepted within my workplace (and handled discreetly) but an obviously having trouble thinking through how to handle right now since I’m not thinking clearly.

    1. LQ*

      I’ve used a fairly broad and general kind of thing to deal with not work anxiety flares. “You know how everyone’s got shit to deal with? Right now my shit just got bigger and I need a little grace. I’m hoping it’ll be under control in about 2 months, and I’ll still be here and doing my best, but shit’s just taking up more space than it should.”

      *Shit here used in the actual thing I said to my boss. Once for a family member with cancer that I did not want to talk about. Once for stupid jerk brain being shitty. You could say “stuff” instead. But I kind of like shit because it conveys that it’s bad enough, that it’s serious, but also that you don’t want to talk about it.

    2. PX*

      Honestly, this is where the vague ‘medical condition that sometimes flares up’ sounds perfectly appropriate to me!

    3. EJane*

      oh god i get you. I’ve got PTSD, and that shit does not play around.
      We’re also severely understaffed, and I’m in a middling management position with responsibilities that need to be completed every day, and no one else can really do them.
      My brain also takes no prisoners.
      I’ve found that working half-days has been helpful. It gives me a chance to make sure my work doesn’t pile up, and my teammates know that I’ll be around at some point in the day, but I have enough uninterrupted “off” time to manage my brain.

    4. Fikly*

      This is what sick time is for. Becoming ill is generally not planned. If you had just caught the flu, you would need the sick time the same way.

      You do not have to disclose the exact reasons – chronic illness flaring up works just fine, and it’s 100% true.

      1. Not My Normal Account*

        Thanks, all. I’m not actually worried about saying “i have anxiety” to my coworkers (it will make sense to plenty of them, and I’ve also mentioned having a therapist); it’s more the navigating the desire for *more* work (a promotion) and the flare up, which is definitely impacted by the uncertainty around the future of my team, and while I expect to have better coping mechanisms and structures in place in a few weeks it’s not going to be short-term. And, my position is very people-strategy and communications oriented, so my ability to anticipate/navigate is actually really key, and impacted right now. Do like the half-days and requests for grace, though my company uses that phrase for everything from being three minutes late for a meeting on up ;/.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Is the promotion going to be more work? Hopefully it’s simply more complicated&responsible work.
          I’ve seen companies that truly to avoid filling the old position until the recently promoted person burns out trying to “cover” the old job while learning the new one. If I’m describing your company’s standard practice, try to get them to hire someone for you to train before you start the new role! (Or run for the hills…)

    5. That'll happen*

      Are you in the US? Are you eligible for FMLA (been there at least 12 months, worked at least 1250 hours, 50+ employees within a 75-mile radius of your worksite)? This is what intermittent FMLA is for. You may already have the PTO/sick time but FMLA will protect your job and help protect you from any retaliation. If your therapist is a LICSW, they will be able to certify for you, otherwise you’ll need to get a credentialed healthcare provider (MD/PA/NP) to do so for you.

    6. That'll happen*

      Are you in the US? I know this wasn’t in your question, but I highly recommend applying for intermittent FMLA for this if your company is big enough and you’ve been there over a year. If your therapist is a LICSW they can certify for you, but if not you’ll need to get someone else (doctor, nurse practitioner, physician assistant) to do it. Especially since you are up for a promotion, you want to make sure that this is not used against you and FMLA will ostensibly protect you from this.

  55. An Elephant Never Baguettes*

    I got a job offer! Permanent contract not fixed term (my holy grail and I wasn’t sure I was gonna get it because starting off on a 2 year fixed contract is so standard here), better salary than before with a first raise after 12 months already in the contract, good growth opportunities and I’ll be changing from the industry I’ve been in to one adjacent to it but not operating under the same ever present cloud of doom, which will be a huge relief! I start in July and I can’t wait.

    Thanks Alison and this site for being a truly great resource for resume and cover letter writing and the long drawn out interview process!!

  56. It's just me*

    Looking for some help with wording…I seem to be stuck. We just hired someone for a position. It happens to coincide with his spouse having some surgeries. We had no problem waiting for him to get back to us on some things, but now he is saying that his spouse’s surgery did not go well, but he does plan to take care of the things we are waiting for either late this week or early next. My question is, if he is still not able to take care of these things, how do I respectfully tell him we are going to have to move forward with looking for another candidate, without sounding cold and/or uncaring of his situation? Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of waiting too much longer.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Something along the lines of “obviously your spouse’s health is your priority right now, so since we need the X by next week, we have to move forward with other candidates; we are of course eager to work with you in the future if you’re available when we have an opening, best of luck, etc.”

    2. Kathenus*

      One kindness you can offer him is to let him know sooner than later that you are so sorry about his wife’s situation, and completely understand his needing to prioritize his family; but that unfortunately there are some hard deadlines on your end and that you wanted him to know in advance that he’d need to be able to do XX by YY date or you’d have to move on to another candidate. Basically be sympathetic but let him have as much time as possible to figure out if he can meet your deadlines versus telling him after the fact that you have to move on when he might have been able to figure out a way to meet them if he had the time to plan.

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        Not to be a jerk Kathenus but spouse may not be female/wife. As a married person with a same sex spouse, this is one of my pet peeves. Spue is gender neutral. Don’t assume they’re opposite partners. I have gotten very used to the silence when I say my spouse and someone asks “Oh, what’s his name?’ and I say “XXXX–a very female name).

        1. Kathenus*

          Good point, thanks. I have a brother and brother in law in my family, so you’d think I wouldn’t automatically default to opposite partner language.

        2. Curmudgeon in California*

          This. I will say “My wife… ” in situations where people know my marital situation, and “My spouse… ” where they don’t. I’m NB, AFAB.

    3. Policy wonk*

      You don’t say where you are located, but if you are in the U.S. he may not be able to leave his current employer because a change in health insurance could impact tbe spouse’s treatment. You can be kind about his situation while still probing for some certainty about his plans. He may feel torn about what to do, and your giving him a deadline could cause him to make a decision.

    4. It's just me*

      Thanks all, I appreciate the help! I can use a combination of these. I definitely feel for him, and all of my communications with him have involved my asking first how his spouse is, then inquiring about the other factors.

  57. LQ*

    If you have to do a hard bad/good thing at work how do you structure your day and build up to doing it without drowning in it? (Think firing someone, having to have a really hard conversation, etc, it’s entirely the right thing to do, but it feels horrible.)

    1. Sunflower*

      I am a big fan of getting something out of the way first thing in the morning and then, if you have the time, giving myself some time after to do nothing/relax. I also reward myself with something- maybe lunch from my favorite place or giving myself permission to purchase an item I’ve been eyeing.

      Rewards systems work really well for me- even if it’s something simple like not wanting to send an email. I tell myself I can slack off on the internet for 10 mins BUT only after I send this email.

      1. Picard*

        this. I dont like sitting on something. If I’m firing someone, they get the message first thing that morning. Then depending on the situation (but mostly likely 99% of the time) they are walked out and offered the opportunity to come back after regular hours to meet me with security to get their stuff. We are in an area that doesnt have horrible traffic or commute so…

      2. LQ*

        The morning thing is a good one. I tried really hard to do morning but I have to wait until late in the day for this one. The reward thing is good. I’m definitely going to get a really fancy walnut brownie from the fancy place for this.

  58. CupcakeCounter*

    Is microwaving shrimp in the office the same as heating up fish? I wanted to bring some leftovers for work today but realized the only option I had was shrimp. Didn’t bring it because I HATE when people cook fish in the microwave. Personally, I don’t think shrimp have a smell anything close to fish but that could be because I LOVE shrimp.
    Thoughts? Should all seafood be banned from the office microwave?

    1. humans are weird*

      Shrimp does not smell like fish, exactly, but the smell is just as persistent (and as disturbing to some people).

      I actually no longer heat up ham in my office microwave if I can avoid it because then the entire smallish office ends up smelling vaguely of bacon (as in, people make comments about “Yum, bacon!”) , so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

    2. Kathenus*

      As someone who really dislikes the smell of shrimp cooking (to the point where the line about “Smell those shrimp they’re beginnin’ to boil” from Margaritaville is negative to me), please follow your instincts to self-ban any foods that you think might have smells that could bother people.

    3. Nanc*

      I’m allergic to shrimp so I hate the smell. Mostly because I developed the allergy as an adult and I miss being able to eat shrimp!
      Is the shrimp stuff something you can eat cold?

    4. ...*

      Honestly I think you have the right to eat what you want. If you only ate what people didn’t have issues with, according to comments/posts I’ve seen on here, you simply wouldn’t eat.

    5. Retail not Retail*

      I say bring it bc shrimp is awesome BUT i earlier this year realized duh crab cakes are like fish…

      Our lunch microwave options are a tiny trailer or the breakroom where the work release crew eats (we used to have one in the giant shop but it was taken away). We don’t work in the trailer! We encounter worse, stronger smells during the day.

      Last week, I had curry shrimp potstickers but someone else brought leftover crawdads from her super bowl party. I don’t know where she heated them but we ate them in the trailer.

      I did commit one workplace lunch error that was so bad I had to open all the doors and it was like 40 degrees – this brussels sprouts thing i didn’t even finish. Luckily this was a dead museum so no guests were traumatized.

    6. Fikly*

      Is the shrimp already cooked? I’m guessing yes because you said leftovers, and that it’s merely cool, not frozen.

      Generally microwaving already cooked shrimp leaves it overcooked. Have you ever tried fishing the shrimp out, heating up everything else, then mixing the shrimp back in? It’ll warm up, but not overcook.

    7. Ms Fieryworth*

      As the person who sits on the same hall as the microwave and has to smell all the food smells, I’ll tell you that shrimp does smell when heated. The day we had a shell fish (crab and shrimp known for sure) extremely allergic coworker start and there was a ban on heating those things in the shared space was a great day. It’s still a great day several years later. We also had a ban on peanuts for a similar reason for many years.

  59. Sunflower*

    Do I have to purchase Microsoft Word to edit my resume? I just got a personal computer and mostly plan to use it for web surfing/job searching; don’t plan to use it for much word doc editing except for my resume. I don’t know much about word document/editing programs so would be helpful to know what you guys use?

    1. peach*

      You can use the online version of Word for free. Google Docs is also good for basic document editing and they have some nice-looking resume templates. There’s also Libre Office (free), but they have less in the way of templates.

        2. Mad Harry Crewe*

          I use Libre Office on my Mac without difficulty. I haven’t upgraded to Catalina yet, so that might make a difference.

          1. KoiFeeder*

            I had to use it two-three years ago for undergrad and it wouldn’t even open. I’d try to open it, it would spit out a horrifying corrupted page, crash, and die. I used the official download link my teacher sent, so it’s not like I was pirating it!

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              I wonder if the link you were sent was for a different operating system or even a slightly different update. We had issues around Linux flavors at my house at one point. Now we just use Google Docs. :)
              I believe Windows 10 comes with WordPad, and access to an online version of Word, so look unto those options.

              1. KoiFeeder*

                It better not have been for a different OS, my major department mandated Macs and more often than not mandated Mac-exclusive software.

    2. Lyudie*

      I would say if you can get your resume into PDF format, do that…I used Open Office for my resume once upon a time and was told that the formatting looked screwy in Microsoft Office so I am super paranoid about that now. I have a Microsoft Office subscription but use Google Docs a lot for group projects in class and it works very well and is pretty easy to use. I can’t remember offhand how much the Office subscription is but it’s not too bad, but honestly you are probably fine with Google Docs.

      1. Five after Midnight*

        +1 on converting (or printing to) PDF document.
        Open Office can also save in .doc (but not .docx IIRC) format if you need to send a “Word” version to a recruiter. To limit compatibility issue, avoid tables, multiple columns, and fancy layouts. Bolding, italics, underlining, etc should be fine.
        MS office 365 subscription is ~$70/yr full price, but the problem is you have to keep paying to be able to use the documents you created – for casual use, I strongly recommend the free locally-installed options listed by me and others.

    3. Salsa Your Face*

      Like the other commenter said, you can use free word processing software. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the final document you created in one of those free programs can look different when loaded in Word, which the people you’ll be sending your resume to will almost certainly be using. One way to deal with that situation is to save your resume as a PDF, and then submit that instead. That will guarantee that everyone who sees your resume will see it exactly as you intended.

    4. Five after Midnight*

      No, you don’t have to purchase MS Word. I use Open Office (free) for all my word processing, spreadsheet, and presentation needs, and haven’t had any problems. For casual use, it’s more than plenty. I stay away from anything “Google-this-or-that” because of privacy issues. My stuff is my stuff and it stays on my computer – it is not to be used for data mining, advertising, profiling, or other big-brother purposes.

    6. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I’ve used Open Office (later became Libre Office) pretty much exclusively for 15 years or so. In my experience even opening a MS Word document on another computer with the same version of MS Word can make the formatting go wrong, because the other computer may have different settings. So I always create a PDF to send. I am not sure about Mac because I don’t use one, but I’ve never had a serious problem with Libre Office on multiple versions of Windows and Linux.

  60. NicoleK*

    Is this normal? My boss manages a team comprised of tea pot painter and tea pot maker. I was a tea pot maker, but three months ago, I became a tea pot painter. I still have the same boss and same team There were MANY reasons why I left the tea pot maker position. My replacement was hired last month and has been in her role for little over a month. My replacement doesn’t communicate much with me so I’m just assuming that she’s doing fine. What I’ve observed about my replacement: fast learner, fast worker, but sloppy and not particularly great with attention to details. She learns more by doing, and not observing. I left the position three months ago, but my boss still asks me on a weekly basis to complete tasks related to my old position. I don’t mind helping out colleagues, but my old teammates aren’t asking me for help, my replacement isn’t asking me for help. Its my boss who keeps asking me, assigning me tasks related to my old position. Is this normal?

    1. Kathenus*

      Speak up. Ask your boss if you could work with her on how to transition these tasks to your replacement in a more deliberate way so that you can begin focusing all of your attention on your new duties. If there’s a certain aspect of tea pot making that you keep being asked to do, maybe you suggest something like teaching your replacement x and y skills or creating a ‘how to’ protocol. Basically use the information you have about the situation now to proactively suggest to your boss a way to move from the current plan of you being intermittently asked to do old duties to formalizing a method to get replacement up to speed.

      1. NicoleK*

        When she offered me the tea pot painter position, she said, “you’ll have to help out until we fill your position”. Then it became, “You may still need to help out with A and C tasks”. This week, it changed to, “you’ll still have to do X until your review”. At my company, annual reviews for all employees are completed in March. I’ve already transitioned over the routine tasks to my replacement. The tasks my boss is asking me to do are random things related to previous role. To complicate the situation even more, it appears that my replacement doesn’t care for me, or care to be trained by me.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      It’s normal human behavior, but it’s not correct professional behavior.

      Your boss knows and clearly likes / respects you. They know they can trust you to get a certain level of quality product back to them, so they keep asking you for it.

      You can gently push back / remind your boss about your job change by saying, *every* time he comes to you with an old task, ‘You want me to do OldJobTask1, but I’m currently working on NewJobTasks 1, 2 and 3. I’d have to delay NewJobTasks to work on that, is that the priority you want to go with?’

      What will probably happen: boss will say, ‘yes, do OldJobTask1’ and move on, but boss will be less likely to bring old tasks to you over time, as you constantly gently remind him about your new role.

      1. Auntie Social*

        “But other people are depending on me to do X, are you sure that Rosalind Replacement can’t get to it?” It would be easier if you had another boss.

  61. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    This is a long shot but….any death doulas on here? If so, where did you get your training?

    1. alex b*

      My good friend has been a death doula for about three years. She did INELDA training (inelda dotorg). It’s really changed her as a person IMO. I’d be interested to hear updates if you pursue it professionally.

        1. alex b*

          You’re welcome! INELDA’s approach really spoke to her. I had no clue this was even a thing until she got into it. It’s kind of like spiritual social work and nonmedical hospice. Honestly her work seems quite beautiful.

      1. alex b*

        Death doulas serve people who are aware their life is going to end, usually due to terminal illness. They’re also called end-of-life doulas. They support people in the dying process.

        1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

          Right! They are there mainly for the dying, but also can help the family with end of life stuff, and help organize home funerals, etc. So like a birth doula, just at the other end of life.

          1. alex b*

            Exactly. You show up for extremely vulnerable people (the dying and their loved ones) and help them make some sense of what’s happening and reach peace. It’s an honorable calling if I ever heard one.

        2. Fikly*

          I asked because there are doulas who specialize in for mothers/parents who are miscarrying, have miscarried, have a stillbirth, or have an infant who dies. The term can be used for them as well.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      Try The Order Of the Good Death. It’s a death positive website. They likely have info on this as well.

  62. Amber Rose*

    I got hit with multiple drama bombs first thing in the friggin’ morning, before I’d even had my coffee. D:

    It started with my boss ranting, which is what she does sometimes when I get in and nobody else is here because I have one of those faces/personalities where people feel comfortable saying things to me. She’s deeply unhappy, and I asked her, why doesn’t she just leave? I don’t want her to, but I also hate seeing her miserable every day. Because, she said, they owe her too much money. She works until 9 pm most nights, including weekends, and has never been paid a dime of overtime (which is illegal here, we don’t have exempt workers). Not only that, she makes nearly the least amount of money, less than many of the people she manages.

    It turns out she’s not the only one. I was supposed to get a raise last year and I did not, in addition to previous annual raises which were “missed.” :/

    And in addition to all THAT, one of the owners still thinks our department is inefficient and wants to fire some of us. I was telling my husband, we’re not even the bottom of the totem pole. We’re the concrete base. They need us to stand up, but consider us to be separate and on par with mud. I work my ass off, we all do. But because we don’t make the products or bring in customers, we’re garbage.

    Anyways. I did the scary thing and asked for my annual review, which will be in two weeks or so since we’re busy right now, and we’ll see what happens. I’m feeling extremely burned out right now though.

    1. Jaid*

      Sunk Cost theory. Both of you should be looking for new jobs and in her case suing the bejesus out of the company for her lost wages.

      Sympathies to your department.

    2. Viette*

      I hear where your boss is coming from, but “they’re not paying me” is DEFINITELY not a reason to stay at this job. It sucks to not get paid, but staying another year just means it’s going to suck more to not get paid for another year’s worth of raises and overtime.

    3. Anon for this one*

      where is “here”? I thought (maybe wrongly) that you were in the UK, as am I.
      In which case it isn’t illegal not to be paid for overtime!
      There have been many hundreds of hours I “forgot” about.

  63. Careerchangeinthewind*

    Does anyone know about the NorthEastern university “Align” Master in Computer Science program? I’m kinda dying for a career change— humanities undergrad over here, very much underpaid for the high level of work I do— all the masters programs I’m interested in would require significant upgrading to even apply (think psychology or comp sci) …. I’ve often thought if I could go back in time I would have done a comp sci degree… I have dated people in the field and it seems like interesting work.

    The Align program looks too good to be true though. Anyone with any background can apply! They bridge with two semesters at MA level for upgrading. I’d be looking at the Vancouver campus. Besides the high cost (upwards of $50k, which is crazy) am I missing any warning signs? If you can believe what they say, upwards of 90% of grads are now employed in jobs making over $100k a year. I’m currently being priced out of my city, and without a change in career, not sure how I will continue to live here ….

    1. Lora*

      I feel like NEU is crazy overpriced for what you get. The reason for this is, they are trying to collect the students who didn’t quite get into the Ivy Leagues / MIT but still have that kind of money to burn. That’s why they’re trying to charge Ivy League prices. Definitely check around if there are other, cheaper schools that also offer online degrees, as there are now a lot of graduate programs to get people skilled up in some kinda tech.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Have you thought about community college classes instead?

      CompSci is *very* much a skills-based field. Learning specific skills (and building some projects on your own) is a really good way to get a foot in the door. You also don’t have to get a MA – you might be able to get a second BA in CompSci in a year or two, building from your existing degree.

      1. peach*

        Community college is a good suggestion. You can take those “bridge” classes (prerequisites) at community college for a fraction of what you’d pay at Northeastern and then you’d be prepared to apply to any comp sci master’s program (not just one designed for folks from non comp sci majors).

    3. HQB*

      You can also look at which colleges and universities in the area have “2nd bachelor’s” programs in CS – they usually take about 2 years and should cost way way less than $50k. Basically all your gen-ed requirements are covered by your previous degree. I have a brother-in-law who did one at a very good state school for about $16k including tuition, books, fees – the whole shebang.

  64. BRR*

    What do I say to two coworkers where it feels like they’re flirting with each other all the time to ideally get them to stop? The big thing is, I really don’t think that they are actually/intentionally flirting at this time. Their conversations sound exactly like people flirting with each other and they both converse with each other than they converse with any other person in the office. So it basically is annoying because it feels like I’m working with a new couple.

    I’m at a loss as to how approach this more directly. I’ve tried a more indirect approach of mentioning how often they’re interacting with each, eg pointing out how they seem to pay more attention to each other than others. Because again, I’m not sure they know it comes off as flirting and if they are doing it on purpose, this would let them know it’s becoming obvious to others.

    A big thing is, one person is the other’s manager. I know to people outside the situation, this is probably a clear cut situation so I’m asking that replies assume neither person is aware of their own behavior (I 100% know this makes me sound naive). If I suspect anything else I will be reporting it to HR but I really don’t want to take that route yet.

    1. It's just me*

      Channeling my “inner Alison” here…if they don’t report to you, and it’s not affecting your work, or your ability to your job, why do anything at all? I would just tune them out, unless you feel you are somehow being treated unfairly due to their behavior.

    2. Klee*

      Why do you need to say anything? Yes, it’s annoying – to you. But that doesn’t mean it’s actually a problem (and it certainly doesn’t warrant going to HR). Unless you think there really is something inappropriate going on, which you specifically ask us not to, then there’s nothing wrong here. This falls squarely in “not your circus, not your monkeys” territory.

      You cannot tell people to stop talking to each other “like that” because it makes you feel uncomfortable. That’s your issue and you need to deal with it. You do not mention any actual impact on your work beyond being annoyed, but if there is any (them talking more to each other than to others means you don’t get info you need to complete work tasks, for example) then you address that work impact directly and factually, without bringing your interpretation of their interactions as “unintended flirting” into it.

      Absent such impact, you should leave this alone.

  65. Mazzy*

    Don’t want to blow my cover and give specifics, but why does my colleague always say things out loud in our open office to make himself sound good, but actually end up making him look like a liar over time? I mean, one cannot have read everything, been to every country, be on top of every trend, or have taken advantage of every investment opportunity, even with low six figures salary.

    4. Zephy*

      His chronic oneupmanship will catch up to him someday. I say sit back, get some popcorn, and watch the fireworks when someone calls him out.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        +1 I don’t belive in “karma”, in any kind of religious sense, but it is a useful shorthand that when people are engaged in sharp practice it does tend to undermine them sooner or later!

        There is only one person (albeit a significant one) in my life to which karma doesn’t seem to have caught up to yet.

  66. Re'lar Fela*

    Just crowd sourcing recommendations here:

    We are looking for a system to host our onboarding materials as well as future webinars and other reference items for staff. Ideally, such a system would allow us to see who has viewed the materials and host a calendar as well. We need something that will allow us to categorize the items in folders and sub-categories and to easily update or replace as needed. I’m sure such a thing exists, but I’ve been tasked with finding it and I don’t even know where to start or what such a system would be called.

    Any ideas?

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      This Luddite reluctantly recommends Microsoft Teams. We are currently switching to it, and so far it seems far more robust than Sharepoint. I can see it blowing up into a data management nightmare in my place, but it sounds like you’ll have a plan for content organization.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Teams is awful – pretty much everyone in my company hates it, lol. I’d take Sharepoint (which I also don’t love) over Teams any day.

    3. RetailRecruiter*

      Our HR Information System does those things. It’s called Paycom. I’m new to HR and I find it to be clunky and hard to use, but other HR professionals who have used other HRIS say they love paycom.

  67. Tahani*

    Well, good news, I accepted a new job. I am leaving my toxic workplace. When I commented last month on how torn and unconfident I felt about the interview, I really appreciated folks support and kind words. I am also about to go on a short vacation! I’m trying to be happy about it!

    I had a complete nervous melt down after I accepted the job though.

    (.Ama I don’t know if you’re reading this but your comment immensely helped me too)

    I kept thinking “It’s going to be the same as my current job. The workplace is going to be awful. My boss is lying to me again.” And I am so afraid at the thought of quitting. It’s also a lateral move and a slight pay cut, so that didn’t get me excited.

    But! I had to remind myself that I didn’t have evidence it would be the same. I asked as many questions as I could to get a good feel. I asked colleagues who knew my new boss. In fact, my new boss told me she wants to grow me professionally and help me move up, which is NIGHT AND DAY from my current boss, who threatened to ruin me if I quit. My new boss even said, “We both know this is a foot in the door job. I know it pays less, and I know this sounds weird, but if in a year you find a better job or an internal transfer… I will fully support you. I’m here to make sure you succeed.” I gasped.

    And if it all does turn out terrible and it’s all a lie again, I made it through before, I can do it again. I’m sending thank you notes to my references who believed in me. And I’m letting myself be excited again.

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I made a very similar transition (without the shitty old boss – my grandboss sucked, but my immediate boss was great) 6 months ago and I am happier, healthier, and so much better off. My new job is very much entry level, it was pretty much level pay but now I’m in the door in my new industry and I am well placed to look towards moving on in another 6-12 months. When I was hired, my new boss was explicit that this position is a revolving door into the company, it’s not something you’re expected to stay in for years.

      I think you will be a lot happier very soon. If not, it’s not because you screwed up or made a mistake. You made the best decision you could with the information you had at the time.

  68. beanie gee*

    Any advice on how to handle a former coworker who always mentions new job postings at my new, small company?

    They are a friend, but I don’t think it would be a good fit and wouldn’t recommend them to the hiring manager. The first few times I dodged the questions about applying and they missed the deadlines, but we have a new posting and I feel like I should be more direct at some point.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If they specifically ask you about it, reply with “if you’re interested, you should apply.” If they’re a good friend and you can be honest (or I guess semi-honest), say “I don’t think this would be a good fit for you, because they’re looking for someone with {skill you don’t have}.” Otherwise, pretend you don’t get the hints.

      1. beanie gee*

        That’s a good idea. I’d been hesitant to do that since it’s such a small company that they know my opinion has weight and would feel like if I said they should apply, that would imply I’d recommend them for the position. But you’re totally right that I could have them apply and then if they don’t get an interview, or even if they do, that the decision was out of my hands. Thanks!

    2. Colette*

      Is it that the specific jobs aren’t a good fit, or is it that the company is not a good fit? Would they agree that the company isn’t a good fit? I.e. could you say “I’d love to work with you again, but you’d hate the politics/lack of remote work/team dynamics here”

      1. beanie gee*

        It’s the company. The first time I said things like “I’m still not sure how much I like this company” and emphasized some of the downsides of the company. Now I’ve been here two years and feel like I can’t keep dodging when I do actually love it here. But I think that kind of “you’d hate xyz” could be helpful. Thanks!

    3. Leisel*

      I’ve told friends in the past that I need to keep work/business relationships completely separate from friendships. I have a couple of friends who are realtors, hairdressers, massage therapists, etc. When they drop hints that I should come to them for any of those services I usually say, “I’m sure you’re really great, but I try keep friendships and business separate!”

      I do this because of a bad experience in the past. My close friend’s sister was a hairdresser and I went to her for about a year. She did a horrible job cutting my hair one day and I had to go back the next day to have her even it up. She did not take it well and was pretty dramatic about the situation, then complained about me to her sister. My friend understood her sister was in the wrong, but it put a big strain on our friendship for a bit.

      I tell you this story because I’ve decided to avoid putting myself in that situation again. I know your situation is different, but it has some similarities. The thing that makes it trickier is that it’s a friend who you have worked with, so they might expect you to act as a reference. You can say to your friend, “I value my friendship with you, but I feel like we’re too close socially for me to become involved with this work-wise. If you decide to apply, I wish you all the luck!”

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      “The first few times I dodged the questions about applying and they missed the deadlines” …… please don’t take the passive-aggressive ‘leaving it long enough to time out’ response with your friend in future! (as that’s what that is) — as it’s frustrating and/or demoralising.

      If you don’t think the friend would be a good fit for the company as a whole (culture, etc) — have that conversation upfront with them.

      It seems like the friend really wants to work in your company, in whatever role? (they “always mention new postings” etc). Do you have any insight as to why that may be?

      Both of you sound quite conflict-averse from what I can tell.

  69. Odge*

    After much hassle and waiting, I have a new job!!!!!!! I’m so excited, I’ve been at BEC with currentjob for a long time and the new place genuinely looks like a great career move and a better environment. I’m putting in my notice on Tuesday, which I’m a little nervous about since we’re in the middle of a very fast paced project and I’m the only one who does what I do. But I think it will be ok! It should help that I can truthfully say I interviewed at newjob well before the project started, there was just a long wait while they got the approval for the position. Currentjob will survive.

    Eeeee! And best of luck to everyone else looking!

  70. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I spotted something new that I’m not quite sure what to think of. “The hip new trend” is basically soundproofed phone booths for use in open offices. Specific link in comment.
    It’s certainly a good solution for doctor/insurance type calls in an open office. It would be nice to be able to send the office loud talkers in there for their video calls. But it’s so small I would feel claustrophobic even with the full-wall window, and I’m barely above average height&weight for an adult female.
    And this probably increases the chance of spreading disease, given that some viruses are air-transmitted.
    Specific link in comment.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      We have 1, and it’s constantly in use. It’s also ventilated & has a small light, and has a little shelf with a power outlet. It’s fine for 1-2 hours. We also have a dearth of conference rooms, so it drives me up the wall when one person books a whole conference room for themselves. Use. The. Phone. Booth. However, it’s not quite as soundproofed as people think it is. It doesn’t work as well in the middle of the cube farm, so it’s stuck in some random corner.

      IMO it’s fine if you’re not expected to be in it all day.

    3. Policy wonk*

      It looks like the size of the old standard phone booths. Not that bad for quick calls (though not ideal if you are on hold for the doctor’s office!) Recommend you bring some wipes or maybe a spray can of lysol for the times you want privacy.

    4. Fikly*

      My office has these, specifically for the people who need to have confidential health-related conversations with members.

      They seem popular, if the people who actually need them for their jobs having to kick people out of them who don’t technically need them is any indicator.

      We keep tissues, hand sanitizer, etc in ours, plus a small garbage, and a power cord, but everyone brings their own laptop.

    5. ...*

      I’d enjoy having this provided it had air circulation/movement and these seem pretty fancy. Would be great for my video calls and trainings. I would take this as my office TBH!

    6. JessicaTate*

      The co-working space I use has those scattered around. They are great for being on phone or videoconference meetings, so that you’re not disturbing anyone but don’t have to reserve a whole conference room for one person. I wouldn’t want to be in there all day, it is small. But for an hour, it was fine. If you’re stuck in an open office plan, I really appreciated having it, so that I wasn’t wandering around trying to find a quiet place that wouldn’t disturb everyone around me to have a call.

      I’ve been at other co-working spaces where they have “phone rooms” that are slightly bigger, but the doors are nowhere near soundproof, so it’s not much better than having your meeting in an open space. I hated the illusion of privacy most of all.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      My company has them everywhere since the makers are a partner – they are fantastic! Lots of Skype meetings since we are global so these are great. We have several sizes too so there are a few that would be fine for a single person to use without getting some side-eye but large enough to ward off the claustrophobia.
      As for disease…ours are cleaned nightly.

    8. Curmudgeon in California*

      I would happily take a 4 foot by 4 foot booth for an office if it had shelves and power. No high stool, though. But it would beat the hell out of an open plan desk. I can’t work for long on a laptop due to ergonomic issues, though, which is why most “phone booth” temporary concentration spaces do absolutely nothing for me. Having to trade ‘not doing damage to my self’ for ‘ability to concentrate’ is a horrible choice.

  71. Fiona*

    I commented on another thread about open offices but on further examination of the thread, I realized I may have fundamentally misunderstood what an open office means. I thought that any space where there aren’t concrete private rooms or offices is considered “open.” For example, my current workspace consists of cubicles and almost zero private offices – but it sounds like that’s not what people mean by “open.” What would you call this kind of space – like, just a cubicle farm or something?

    I *have* worked in truly open environments and I don’t mind them, but I also understand that people do like some sort of divider.

    Not trying to start up the discussion again, just copping to the fact that I seem to have misunderstood the terminology!

    1. londonedit*

      I would interpret it as one big room with lots of banks of desks in it, but then in my whole career in offices in the UK I’ve never come across one with cubicles. I think it’s a US thing. Most office environments here are rooms of varying sizes where everyone has desks together – sometimes an office building will be split into departments in different rooms, or sometimes there will be an enormous space, like a whole floor of an office block, with different departments in different sections of the space. But no cubicles. Upper management will usually have their own offices, and you’ll have meeting/conference rooms and sometimes informal meeting spaces, but it’s really not usual for anyone else to have a private work space.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Personally, the difference to me is how high the divisions between desks are. In a cubicle farm, I have some manufactured privacy – people don’t necessarily have the ability to just walk up behind me, there’s a little bit of noise barrier. In an open office, I think more of banks of desks, which *may* have a short divider between desks facing each other, but otherwise very minimal privacy or noise barriers.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Yes, a cube farm. I work in a large open space with 4′ cubicles. It’s too low to be much help with sound muffling, but too high to be called really ‘open’. When I sit down, my head is about even with the cube walls, so my phone calls are slightly muffled by the walls (which is not the case in a real open office), but anyone standing up and talking (socially or at the new standing desks), their voices carry.

    4. Ranon*

      I call anything divided by furniture/ cubicles open office no matter how high the cubicle walls are too, but that’s coming from the architect perspective where I have to draw the solid walls but the furniture design is someone else’s problem

    5. Amethystmoon*

      It would definitely be a cubicle farm. Where I used to work, they didn’t even have desk partitions. There was a toxic manager lady who felt the need to literally sit and hover on my desk. You couldn’t say no to her either, or she would yell at you in front of everyone. There is a difference — you can pretend you have privacy in a cubicle. In a truly open space, you cannot pretend.

  72. Quill*

    Community, I need some help.

    I’m currently a contractor and one of the people I was an assistant to has abruptly and unexpectedly left the company.

    I have inherited 80% of her responsibilities, my mentor has inherited the other 20%. My new stuff is something that isn’t entirely pegged to my previous coworker’s job title but it’s pretty intensively needed within the group and, at present, NOT something that can be trained for if I were to, say, be sucked into narnia tomorrow.

    When is the best time for me to tell my boss, who had my 1 year contract extended by the time I’d been here 6 months, and who has given me glowing reviews except for one single project, that I’d like to essentially step into this role as a salaried full time employee and make my field promotion on the battleground of international compliance documents permanent?

    (context: departure was tuesday, official meeting to review my new responsibilities is this coming monday, transition plan is by my estimate 50% done.)

    1. RC Rascal*

      Do you have regular (weekly) meetings with your boss? If so, at your next meeting I would add your interest on to the agenda of your normal meeting (I”m assuming this is a one to one).

      If not, I would knock on their door at a quiet time (later afternoon or EOD is usually good). Then I would say, “Boss, I would like to talk to you about Jane’s position. I am interested in the opportunity. I have been a contractor here for (X time), I am very committed to the company and what we do, and would like to talk to you about interviewing for the position. Is there a time we can talk about this?

      Then, shut your mouth and see what Boss says. Don’t launch into a giant spiel about your qualifications. Just express interest and ask for a dedicated time to discuss it. Boss may refer you to HR first; different companies have different processes.

      If they make you take the duties, or a portion of the duties while remaining a contractor, accept the situation so long as you can get enough experience to justify adding the bullet points to your resume. Then apply for full time jobs elswhere.

      1. Quill*

        Okay, thanks.

        I have one on ones on a project basis so I’ll bring Jane’s position up with Elizabeth when I go in to sort out my current duties next week. Elizabeth has been very open with me that she’d recommend me to adjacent teams to the Bennett work group if they needed someone to fill a gap at the end of my contractorship, so… fingers crossed

      2. lurker :)*

        I totally agree that you should try to have a conversation with the boss, but I would actually first ask if they are going to post/flyer to backfill the position. I think it’s a lot easier access point, and if they aren’t going to fill the position, a lot less awkward! If the boss says they are going to try to fill it, then you can easily go to the “I’d be really interested in applying and moving into a permanent position” language!

        1. Quill*

          ooh, thanks.

          I’m in a position where I’m the remaining SME, so… if they filed the position from the outside I’d have to train that person.

          Elizabeth may be really apprehensive about changing anything up that might limit my ability to assist her though, apparently I’m the best one she’s had.

  73. Bend & Snap*

    I got laid off almost 3 weeks ago and just got home from the final round of interviews for a job I would love. Please cross your fingers for me!

  74. Champagne Cocktail*

    I’d like people’s thoughts about meeting minutes.

    During a past job, I got chewed out for not taking appropriate minutes at a WebEx meeting. The thing is, I was running the meeting and presenting for part of it and answering questions throughout. The organization didn’t have someone like an admin, a project coordinator, or even an intern that could take on the task. What are you supposed to do in that situation?

    My current job is much better. A few people submit their notes and the project manager compiles and distills and then distributes. Some people even read them.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      It’s not reasonable to be taking notes at meeting when you’re also running it, or to be taking notes while you’re giving a presentation. Taking notes is a discrete task that someone else should be doing.

      Next time, ask “who’d like to take minutes for the meeting?” You don’t need an admin, coordinator, or intern to attend the meeting. Anyone who’s there can take notes. If/When an agenda is sent out beforehand, include it as the first agenda item: “select notetaker.”

      1. Champagne Cocktail*

        I’m gone from the place now, but I can’t see that going over very well. Attendees in meetings like that were typically director-level and above. Recording was what worked eventually.

        1. Policy wonk*

          As the person running the meeting you should be able to bring a notetaker with you. If it requires specialized knowledge assign someone, otherwise make it a rotating duty among team members, alphabetcally or similar so no one thinks they are always stuck with it.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      There’s no way you can take minutes and run a meeting. Yikes. If there really isn’t anyone who could take notes, I’d think the only other alternative would be to record the meeting and play it back for minutes after the fact.

  75. 1idea*

    I am going to apply for a job at a company that services children with autism and their families. I am wondering if I should mention in my cover letter that I have a child with autism myself. The point of mentioning it would be to emphasize how strongly I am in agreement with their mission to support autistic children and their families. However, I’m not sure if it’s too much information. Maybe it would be better to just refer to a “family member”, or to not make it personal in that way. What do you think makes the most sense for this situation? Thanks in advance for any insights!

    1. Eeyore's Missing Tail*

      I think it depends on how to you bring it up. I think a statement like “As the parent of an autistic son, I have learned how llama grooming service are important…” would be ok, but I wouldn’t go much beyond that. Good luck!

      1. 1idea*

        Thanks! Yes, I was trying to think about this. I feel like I’m not supposed to disclose it, but it’s never bothered me – if they don’t want to hire parents I kinda don’t want to work there! ;-p

        1. 1idea*

          Still though, as I keep thinking, it is probably better to just say “family member” so none of us have to worry about if they are factoring it in.

    3. Policy wonk*

      I would probably say family member in the cover letter, and address it in the interview if asked. Not knowing what the company does it’s hard to gauge, but you don’t want them reading something into you application that you don’t intend (e.g., wants a discount! Will stake out political positions that may alienate our customers!)

      Good luck with both the job applications and your personal journey with your autistic child.

      1. 1idea*

        Thank you, that is a good point! They provide therapy and have no idea if they would give employee discounts, but I definitely don’t want to give the impression that might be the reason for my interest, or that I’ll stir up politics that might mess up policy for them.

    4. RetailRecruiter*

      For me it’s always a red flag if someone mentions anything personal aside from what their hobbies are. You say you’re a parent of an autistic kid and I hear “not only do I need time off for neurotypical parent stuff, I’m going to need extra time off and flexibility and I’m going to expect it of you because your mission is to support parents like me”… and even though that is their mission this particular role may not have the flexibility. Only talk about your qualifications. Being a parent is not a qualification.

  76. rageismycaffeine*

    Hoo boy. So the head of our department, Cersei, was fired (or as I like to say “was resigned”) back in August. It was a pretty acrimonious split, complete with a nasty drunken email from her husband. The mood around here was INSTANTLY lighter and we’ve all been much better off for the last six months. Cersei was a micromanager who was not interested in anyone’s input on how to do things, even in areas where they had expertise she did not. I’m a teapot researcher with ten years of experience, including serving on the board of my professional organization and multiple presentations at national conferences, and she had me doing entry-level work for her and monopolized my time to the exclusion of everyone else in the department. I was not sorry to see her go.

    Earlier this week, I got an email from Arya, a teapot researcher at another organization, and someone I’ve known through my professional organization for a few years – we worked together on a couple of different committees. Long story short: Cersei has a new gig, Arya is now working with her, and Arya is hoping to chat with me. Details changed to protect the innocent:

    My colleague Sansa and I have been working to get Cersei bought into our office’s policies, procedures, and culture, and we’d love to hear any insights you may have for greater success.

    Reading between the lines: I bet that Cersei is again dictating how she expects everything to be handed to her, and is not interested in hearing any other idea. Arya wants to reach out to someone who’s been there and get some commiseration or vindication or at the very least confirmation that Cersei is, in fact, a pain.

    I let my boss know, mostly because none of us knew that Cersei had a new job. And then it snowballed: my boss let his boss know. Grandboss let legal know. And I was told that I needed to tell Arya that our org’s HR office would be happy to answer any questions she has, and not to say another word. Which is what I did.

    I understand why this is what had to be done, but it really sucks!!! I would love to talk to Arya and tell her she’s not crazy, and how sorry I am that she has to deal with Cersei’s micromanaging. And more than that, I really hate that HR and legal liability issues mean that toxic people get to go from workplace to workplace without anyone getting to say “hey, this person is a nightmare.” I know Cersei had flawless references and looks great on paper, so the hiring committee probably didn’t think there was any need to call “off-book” references, or they might have known. Now they get to find out the hard way, and probably end up with years of Cersei alienating people and dragging down her area before they can get rid of her, just like we did.

    I still am very tempted to pick up the phone – my cell phone, not my business phone – and call Arya and tell her what’s really going on, or spill the tea at our national conference in a few months. I really don’t know what to do.

    1. Picard*

      Can you call her, on your personal time and phone and just listen? And emphasize to her that you guys never talked?!

      1. RC Rascal*

        Don’t do that. If the parties are suing each other, this could still be found in discovery. I’m not an attorney, but my money is the lawyers can figure out how to get a hold of anything they can subpoena.

        1. valentine*

          Yes, to discovery and subpoenas. I wouldn’t be in contact Arya or anyone who knows Cersei.

          You have a direct order to say no more. Accept the grace that you didn’t, and were spared the talk with Legal and whoever else, since there’s Stuff you don’t know that caused the chain reaction. I say you’re better off not knowing.

          I still am very tempted to pick up the phone – my cell phone, not my business phone – and call Arya and tell her what’s really going on, or spill the tea at our national conference in a few months.
          This is an escalating string of bad impulses. You’re way too invested. You’re not going to get whatever you want from defying your employer, putting them at legal risk, and risking your job, unless you want all that in a self-sabotaging, scorched-earth, delayed response to TPTB letting Cersei reign for so long.

          I really don’t know what to do.
          You do. You just don’t want to. Cersei’s best employed elsewhere because it reduces the chances she’ll reenter your orbit. She needn’t be the rock to your Sisyphus. Instead of trying to save her new HR from themselves, you can drop the Cersei burden entirely and let her become a distant memory. Say nothing. Do nothing. Be free.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think you need to keep quiet unfortunately and assume any information you share with Arya is going to get leaked which is going to lead back to you. I don’t know if you can get fired over this but if there is any kind of legal agreement that Cersei has in place with your place of employment it could potentially get really nasty.

    3. RC Rascal*

      You have done the right thing so far. The thing is, you don’t know what kind of legal trail might have been involved with Cersei. You don’t know what kind of agreements Cersei made with her departure, and what else might be in the works.

      Maybe Cersei signed an agreement not to recruit anyone from your company, and this is seen as a violation.
      Maybe Cersei is ordered not to have contact with anyone from your company.
      Maybe Cersei and your company are suing each other.

      This became a big thing for a reason; there is a reason the Big Bosses and HR are taking the position they are. (No one involves Legal without a really good reason). Don’t defy them or you are making trouble for yourself.

      I wouldn’t call Arya or make any sort of move. Next time you see her in person, apologize for not returning your call and simply tell her that HR wouldn’t allow you to speak of the matter.

      1. Kathenus*

        Yes, what RC Rascal says about you doing the right thing and not calling Arya. You have been explicitly told not to do so, it can only hurt you if you do anyway and it’s found out. And while I understand the frustration with businesses that won’t allow references, that’s not what this situation is, they already hired Cersei, and her leaving your org was obviously such a big deal that this conversation between you and Arya was escalated to where your bosses got legal involved. Stay out of it, don’t let Cersei hurt you from afar, even if your intent is helping Arya.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 . Your company give you direct guidance. You don’t have the whole story, you will be a lot better off if you stick with the guidance from people who do.

      3. blackcat*

        Can you get HR’s approval to send a note like “Hi, Arya, you’ll have to direct any questions to HR.”?

        And then, the next time you run into Arya you could say, “The powers that be won’t let me say anything, but best of luck to you with Cersei.” In the right tone, that says enough…

    4. J.B.*

      You gave her an answer. If you could read between her lines, there is an entire book in between your lines. She may be frustrated but will know she’s not imagining things.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Yeah, you don’t usually have legal telling you not to share positive impressions. Arya will get the hint.

  77. Environmental Compliance*

    Anyone here a sustainability specialist? Can you tell me about what your normal day looks like, and what your favorite parts of your job are?

    I have a phone interview later today for this role, and I’m curious to hear from people already in the field, as this feels to be a bit of a shift for me – right now I do environmental compliance, so similar, but still a different focus. I think I would be a lot happier in a position like this, but I’m concerned that it’d end up being more administrative than technical, if that makes sense.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Sigh, the position sounds cool, but also pays $20+k less than my current position, and I know I’m not overpaid.

      *sad environmental noises*

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yet another example of why job postings should list salary range.
        I’m sorry they got your hoped up and wasted your time.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          At least it was only 20 minutes. And we got to have the discussion during the phone screen, so some progress, lol. I *hate* getting to the mid stages and having it dropped upon me. Dude, y’all made me drive out here, you can’t tell me you didn’t have an idea of what you’d pay this position before this….

          Happily someone else called me 5 minutes after I hung up with We Pay Crappily and I have another phone interview. Onwards & upwards!

  78. Eeyore's Missing Tail*

    TL/DR – How do I handle a group of graduate students that I caught in a lie?

    I have a situation that has annoyed the ever-loving mess out of me and I’m at a loss for how to handle it. I have three graduate students that are part of an international dual degree program we run with a university in South Korea. This is my first year working in this program and with these students. The students have all come to me saying that they want to extend their program one more semester, but they will need us to write a letter to their home institution making the request. Two of the students have already told me that they have been given verbal permission and the letter is just a formality. The problem is that they want to go ahead and take a 1 hour course this semester instead of their last semester because they don’t want to pay for it. I’ve explained every way I can think of the rules of the program and our program director’s answer when I sent the request. Our director said if they were going to stay an extra semester, they needed to take the course then. The students finally went and met with him and he caved in to their demand. They also told him that they weren’t sure they would be able to stay an extra semester, which is why they wanted to do the course now. I told my director that they told me the opposite, but he’s sticking by his decision, which is 100% his call. I’m just now super annoyed that they lied to one of us (probably him) to get what they wanted. Any tips on how to continue working with them? I’m trying to stay professional and work with them only when needed, but two are also in a class I’m taking this semester.

    This may be BEC, but it gets under my skin how they communicate with me! I’ll get an email from 1 of them with a question. I’ll respond and about 10 minutes later get an email from another one saying “You told Alex XYZ. What did you mean by that?” Or, when they come to talk to me, they ask me a question, speak to each other in Korean for a few minutes, then switch back to English to ask me another question. I understand that English is difficult, and I keep trying to tell myself that they are probably just trying to make sure everyone understands what I said, but after catching them in that lie, I’m half temped to request that when they are speaking to me, it may be easier to keep it in English and I’m more than happy to try to explain something again or using other words if they need that.

    I love working with international students, but I just don’t feel like I can trust these three anymore.

    1. Kathenus*

      Sounds like you are, totally understandably, at BEC with these three. But your boss made a decision in this case to allow what they wanted even knowing that they may have misrepresented it. So I’d just say to act professionally, and use the ‘trust but verify’ strategy going forward. Another student might ask you for x, y, or z and you may trust their information and say yes; but if these three ask for the same, you check into it or ask for verification before approving.

      1. valentine*

        Don’t tell them not to speak Korean in front of you. If you’re not bilingual, you don’t know from the brain freeze and how a word will suddenly only be accessible in the other language. They’re leaning on each other and working together to improve their outcomes. That’s good. Isn’t that something you want to foster? Would you be as annoyed if they didn’t speak a language you don’t know but still operated collectively?

        I’m not clear on what the big deal is here, if it’s not illegal, even if it’s some huge exception he’s making for them. Follow his lead and accept it?

    2. Rick Tq*

      I’d reply to all three with a CC: to your director regardless of who asked a question unless it is clearly personal. The term “Splitting staff” comes to mind and the only way to cut it off is to make sure all parties have the same information at the same time. You might ask your director to do the same.

    3. Anonymous Liz*

      You may want to check with your international student services group (if one exists) about this. I could see this having visa implications for them potentially, especially if they aren’t taking classes.

    4. Avasarala*

      I honestly don’t see the lie here?
      They told you “they have been given verbal permission and the letter is just a formality. The problem is that they want to go ahead and take a 1 hour course this semester instead of their last semester because they don’t want to pay for it.”
      They told him “they weren’t sure they would be able to stay an extra semester, which is why they wanted to do the course now.

      It sounds like they haven’t gotten the letter permitting extension yet, and as far as they know, they aren’t sure they will be able to extend another semester. And they might not be able to for financial reasons (they don’t want to pay for it later). In high-context languages like Korean, things like “not sure” can extend to scenarios like you described.

      And it sounds like the communication is frustrating but this is very normal to me (as someone who works in-between eastern and western cultures). Here is how I can see this playing out, if you understood Korean:

      Student A(lex): When will we receive the letter of extension?
      Eeyore: Someone in the office should be able to get it to you by Friday.
      Student A forwards to B.
      Student B to A: What is “should be able to”? Does that mean they will or they won’t? Do we have to go in to get it on paper or will they email it to us? Is Eeyore going to do it or do we have to ask someone else?
      A: I don’t know, you ask.
      Student B to Eeyore: You told Alex “the office should be able to get it to you by Friday”, what did you mean by that?”

      Overall I see a lot of language assigning malicious intent to them (“caved to their demands”, “lying”). I can see how this may be frustrating to you but there is really no reason to ascribe malice and deceit to them, when based on this one example, I don’t see any lie at all. What I do see is misunderstandings, and you’re interpreting them as malice. Do not ask them not to speak in Korean–there is more understanding and confirmation happening here than you appreciate.

      Instead I invite you to (1) learn more about communicating across cultures, especially high-context to low-context. The Culture Map is a good book to start with. You say this is your first year, so this is a good time to start learning crucial cross-cultural skills. I also suggest you take up a language like Korean, Chinese, Arabic, etc.
      (2) In the meantime, try to boil your interactions down to the simple truth. Take notes, write more clearly, verify “so you’re asking if X?”, scrap idioms in favor of “in other words” and other clearer phrases.
      (3) Learn to read their interactions beyond just the words they say, without ascribing malicious intent. They’re not just 3 of the same person. When they talk to each other, does it look like one person is asking a lot of questions? Like one person is giving instructions or pointing out misunderstandings? Like one person is more unsure than the others? Look at their body language, listen to their tone–What kind of interaction is happening–does it look like they’re sharing and clarifying? Do they sound frustrated, confused, relieved, or neutral? Can you identify “Oh, I get it” or “What?” or “OK”? There is a lot going on in those conversations that you can pick up without knowing the language.

  79. cmcinnyc*

    One of the people I support f-ed up majorly this week and I am peeved, to say the least. Everyone messes up but this is part of a pattern and I’ve tried so many different approaches and the bottom line is: this person discounts everything I say because I’m support staff. Yes. I’m SUPPORT staff. Attempting to SUPPORT you professionally. So you don’t f up like you just did causing a major headache for senior staff above you. I have a good reputation in this company but this guy looks at support staff and his brain says “stupid and beneath me.” Y’all–some people cannot be helped.

    1. RagingADHD*

      Maybe this’ll larn him.

      I had a guy like that shoo me out of a huge transaction closing, for which I had organized all the paperwork and would normally handle the passing and collation of signature pages. He wanted to get more face time with the client, I guess.

      He got it, all right – because when it came time to pack everything up and try to catch the last FedEx, it turned out he had forgotten to get the client’s signature on the most important document.

      He had to go track the client down at a restaurant and interrupt his wedding anniversary. Several of us support folks had to bill overtime hours, and we barely made the dropoff (IIRC, he had to drive to the last pickup point in town, at like 8:30).

      At least he never shooed me away again.

  80. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    I filed a report this morning on a man on who works in my building/presumably for my employer who made vaguely threatening comments about me walking too close a couple weeks ago and now shouted at a woman for pressing an elevator button and then getting off the elevator early to take the stairs. This is at a university.

    Does anyone have experience with how the process for this will go? We have a kind of “If you see something, say something” program here where you can report concerning behavior to a team of people who then evaluate it and decide if any actions need to be taken, but I don’t know what to expect since I don’t know this guy’s name, or the name of the other woman who got shouted at, or the name of a witness, and these aren’t super explicitly threatening events but more of a concerning pattern of uncalled-for hostility around the workplace, with strangers.

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      How does one get passion? I have no passion for my job or anything. I go to the dr and take antidepressants, but I still can’t feel excited about anything. I need something to help me keep going.

      1. Fikly*

        Passion should not be a job requirement. Not hating what you are doing, that is good, yes, but the idea that you must be passionate about it is nonsense.

        Which isn’t to say that you don’t need things you feel passionate about! But honestly, look for them outside your job, both because that’s more appropriate a place to get them from, and it’s a lot easier to change what you are doing outside of your job, than to change your job.

      2. Amethystmoon*

        I have never had passion for any job. It pays the bills. I’m happy to have a roof over my head, but the things I am actually passionate about, like my photography, writing, and crochet, don’t pay the bills.

    2. Ace in the Hole*

      How it goes will depend a lot on how responsive/competent your university is. But generally I expect what happens will be mostly invisible to you. You’ll likely file the report, get a response acknowledging the report was received, and maybe be asked to meet with someone in private to talk about the incident. If they decide to take any disciplinary action or training you’ll probably never hear about it directly.

      A couple things I’d like to mention though… the big thing about reporting this kind of behavior is to establish a record of the pattern. Frankly I think it is VERY concerning that he’s shouting at women in a confined space and muttering threats (however vague) towards you. And the fact that you don’t know for sure if he even works there just makes it more concerning. You say there are no witnesses but in the case of the woman in the elevator, you’re the witness! It’s entirely possible she’s already reported it and you’ll end up corroberating her story.

    3. WellRed*

      Chances are, they will be somewhat aware of this person, or upon investigation, will be able to find them pretty easily. Because he’s a man and he’s threatened two women that you know of, I think it will add a sense of urgency to this. You, however, may never know the outcome. But if you, please report back ; )

  81. PlzLeaveMeAlone*

    I have two questions:

    1) Advice on a manager who’s constantly making you look bad because he doesn’t pay attention? Things like sending emails with the same information I’ve already sent to clients, sharing incorrect information that I then pass along to the client and it turns out to be incorrect, etc. None of this is intentional — he truly just doesn’t pay attention, but it’s extremely frustrating.

    2) What are your thoughts on a manager who insists on texting vs putting things in an email? My boss is generally very overbearing so this might just be me projecting BEC status on him, but I’m so sick of the constant texts!

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      For sharing duplicate info – let it go.

      For sharing wrong information, if this is a consistent pattern, start verifying independently before reaching out to the client. Either checking with him “Oh, last time I did this with a client, the process was X. I wasn’t aware it’s changed” or checking with his source. If you do pass on wrong info, correct it with “My apologies, it looks like I need to update Y” or “My apologies, it looks like I got outdated info, here’s the current process for Z.” Yes, you’re apologizing and the client might think you messed up, but you know the truth and that’s what matters.

      For the texting, see if you can make it about the issues it creates. Information is harder to track and/or gets lost. You pay for texts and you’re trying to keep your phone bill down. You’re trying to separate work from life and do less work on your phone. If this has been going on for a while, probably find an opportunity to chat with your boss about it in person, so you can explain. After that, start being less accessible/responsive to text messages. “Hey, do you have the X timeline? Oh, you texted me? Sorry, I didn’t see it, you remember I’m cutting myself off from phone stuff in the evening…”

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        “sharing duplicate info” – “let it go”?

        The trouble is it isn’t just a benign duplication of info at this point — it’s perceived as either a (necessary) endorsement/backup of the thing the OP already said to the client (so why is it needed?) or he shares incorrect info the OP sends to the client then has to correct.

        Insist on putting it all in emails, if you can.

        If there’s nothing else you can do I’d look to cut that manager out of most of what you do, but I appreciate it may not be possible.

  82. Chris*

    This week I submitted my first job application in five years.

    While I like my current job, after five years here I’ve been thinking about testing the waters and seeing what my options are like. However, I wasn’t planning on starting the process until later this year, after we hit a big milestone at work. In the meantime I’d been keeping my eye on places where job ads in my field get posted to get an idea what the market is like.

    I know Alison emphasizes that there is no “perfect job”, but this one is right up my alley, both in terms of my qualifications and the type of work I’d like to do. It’s also located in a state where I’ve been wanting to move for years. So, while it may not be “perfect” it was too good to pass up, even if the timing isn’t ideal.

    This is my first job application since I’ve started reading Ask a Manager. Reading Alison’s advice on the blog and in her book has made my resume much better and improved my cover letter writing skills immeasurably since my last job search. There are a few aspects of the job that would be a bit of a stretch for me (it would be my first managerial position) but for the most part I feel like I was really able to put my best foot forward. Thanks Alison!

    1. PlzLeaveMeAlone*

      Good luck! I incorporated quite a bit of advice when writing a cover letter for my last job, and the hiring manager mentioned how much they liked it.

    2. Fikly*

      Good luck! Remember that submitting an application does not obligate you to take it if it is offered to you!

  83. Ace in the Hole*

    For those of you who are returning to college later in life: do you add school activities like research, volunteer work, or unpaid/minimally paid internships to your resume?

    For more context… I’m going back to school to finish a BS (environmental science) in my late 20’s. I have a solid work history but it’s very short – I’ve worked for 7 years at the same agency through a series of promotions. Everything before that was entry level stuff unrelated to my career interests, although I have 1-3 year stays at each company. I’d like to include some career related volunteer work and a basically-unpaid research internship to show I have more experience than just my current agency. If I were a traditional student with little “real world” job experience I’d do it without question… but would that come off strange for someone with more work experience?

    1. Beth Jacobs*

      You have to.
      Since you’re not a typical fresh grad, I wouldn’t include the type of activities that aren’t directly tied to your field – like being president of a debate club or a residential advisor. That’s the kind of activites you put on a resume when you don’t have actual paid experience to speak for your soft skills and work ethic.
      But a research internship speaks for your hard skills and as you said, your paid work experience doesn’t really show those. So go for it and good luck.

    2. OtterB*

      Because you’re changing fields at least to some extent, you want your resume to lead with things that are relevant to the new field. If that includes volunteer and internship positions, that’s fine.

  84. Environmental Compliance*

    In an update from Everyone in Management Hates It Here:

    One of my team members walked out a couple days ago after being loudly cussed out by an Upper Management person about something UM had no idea what they were talking about, and in front of a whole bunch of contractors. Basically calling TM an idiot, insert lots of curse words, yadda yadda, out of nowhere and totally inappropriate in so many ways.

    We *hope* TM will come back Monday, because we are absolutely boned without them. However, I think we’ve finally hit the point of the Beginning of the End. We are up to 100% of the team actively looking for a new job. Many, many, many nonmanagement staff looking as well.

    1. PX*

      Sorry to hear EC! Been following your comments on the threads, I know there was some optimism a while back that at least some people in UM seemed sensible but I guess that answer is now firmly in the ‘No’ camp.

      Good luck with job hunting! Here’s hoping when your entire team quits (and someone alerts the regulators that the entire team has quit..hint hint) things may change for the better.

      ~~good vibes~~

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, I’m solidly disappointed. The UM that I thought would be helpful is actually the idiot that cussed out my TM. So that’s….something.

        I’ll be sending a note to a few of the regulators that I know. They won’t be incredibly impressed by the situation, but it is what it is at this point. Hell, one regulator is going to be absolutely pissed when they get the honest note of Yeah, sorry, but I’m out. They are trying to revoke doing the enforcement compliance action plan that *they signed off on and designed with me* and the regulator approved. Y’all have fun with that. You could have listened, been compliant, paid a little money up front, and now you’re going to spend enough money in fines & stupidity to rebuild the facility. Maybe you can use the almost-seven-digit-figure I saved in 2019 with some basic improvements to cover a part of that fee. *sassy hair flip*

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          *frustrated Finland noises*

          Had phone interview, position seems interesting, but the high range of their pay is $20k lower than what I make currently.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Plan for the worst and hope for the best… I don’t think ‘TM’ will be back.

      Please keep in mind… *Hope is not a strategy.*

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I’m trying optimism out more recently as a barrier against constant negativity. Realistically TM might be back to get their stuff and waltz out.

        (slightly suspicious with that wording at the end there)

  85. Trixiebells*

    Hi everyone, happy Friday!

    TLDR; does anyone have recommendations for what to say when my STEM degree, which is completely unrelated to my current work, gets brought up* and I don’t want to have to explain why I didn’t pursue the field?

    The longer version: Yesterday at lunch we were joking about the idea that millennials can’t buy houses due to spending too much on avocado toast, all the industries we’re destroying, etc. I made a joke along the lines of “it’s definitely not my student loans that prohibit me from making major purchases, har har” and then a coworker (not on my team) said “says the person with STEM Degree who decided to work in Unrelated Field.”

    My team is a small one, and pretty close, so I’ve explained the series of events that led me to current, Unrelated Field to them before, but I really don’t want to hash out my life story in the lunch room. If it’s just a question of “why did you change?” I don’t mind saying something like, “ultimately I realized that Unrelated Field is something I’m more interested in and better suited for” but sometimes there are side comments like above that raise STEM as this paragon of all that is worthwhile and lucrative (not necessarily the case). I also have to admit that I’m a bit sensitive to the issue due to comments from family members in the past.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    1. Trixiebells*

      *If you’re wondering why people know about my degree, it’s a combination of a well-meaning teammate using it as a point of interest when initially introducing me to some people, and it having come up when people asked about where I went to school/what I did before current job

    2. OtterB*

      You could give a short answer like, “Better working on [your current field] and enjoying it than making more money in STEM and hating every minute.”]

    3. Colette*

      In that specific instance, I’d just ignore it. But some other responses could be something like “I guess we never know where life will take us” or “If only I could tell 18 year-old me”. You don’t have to justify why you’ve made the choices you’ve made.

    4. Policy wonk*

      How about a breezy “I like this better. ” There is nothing to argue with. Then ask them a question about themselves to move the conversation in a different direction.

    5. Blueberry*

      They said get a STEM degree, they said it would be a license to print money…

      I so hear you. To a serious inquiry (not the snarky coworker) you could say, “I enjoy this more” or “this fits me better.”

  86. Beth Jacobs*

    This is half a Friday and half a weekend post, but I’m putting it here.
    I’m leaving my company in two weeks for a great new job. I accepted the offer in late December, but long notice periods are common in Europe and I had a large project to wrap up. On this large project, I’ve been working with a guy from another department who I have a tiny crush on – he’s smart and funny and so on. I never acted on my feelings, because I don’t want to mix work and personal stuff.
    But now that I’m leaving, I’ll be saying good bye and thanking him for all his work on the project. Would it be appropriate for me to ask him out for coffee or something? So far, I’m leaning towards not saying anything unless I get some hints from him during the good bye. I’m worried this could be awkward, we don’t really know each other on a personal basis and it’s not like I’m walking away from the love of my life. It’s just a mild crush. On the other hand, it’s a crush that lasted half a year.
    Ugh, I feel like a teenager. I certainly hope I’m not coming off as one.

    1. Rainy-day Dog*

      I think that would be fine – I did something similar, encouraged by the people on this site. He turned me down romantically, but we remain friendly. I do think you have to be pretty clear that you’re asking him on a date, not a work coffee.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      At my org, when people are leaving on good terms, there tends to be a heavy whirl of grabbing coffee/having lunch, etc. and you would not seem out of line asking him to have coffee. Perfect opportunity. I’d take it.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      It would be totally fine, especially if you take a ‘no’ casually.

      I would personally be very clear about it not just being just a ‘coworker goodbye’, though – if he’s unavailable (married / gay / etc), and figures out halfway through that you wanted a date, it could get awkward.

      But something like, ‘hey, I’ve enjoyed spending time with you, but I didn’t want to mix professional and personal. Now that I’m going to a new company, that’s not an issue, so would you be free for a coffee date sometime?’ should be ok.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Is your new job related in any way to your current one (e.g one company is a customer/competitor of the other)?

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        It’s the same industry and I can’t rule out we might meet on a work basis in the future, but I don’t think it would be problematic in any way.

      2. Beth Jacobs*

        Thanks for the input everyone :) I’ll gauge the atmosphere when I’m saying good bye and see how it goes.

  87. BEC*

    I’m almost at BEC level with a coworker. How do you reframe things in your mind to try to respond neutrally.
    I don’t want to say ‘if you’d read my last email…’ but am so tempted.

    Thanks.

    Ex. First email: Can you please provide an estimate for this change? The customer is asking for a new message on site abc.org that says ‘We love corgis’.
    Response: The estimate depends on what message they want and what site.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Use cut and paste responses that will start looking super familiar.

      “Here’s the process. Here’s what I need.”

      Rinse, repeat.

    2. Kathenus*

      My (snarky) self first went to a non-constructive approach:

      Cut and paste the response and add the info to it: The estimate depends on what message (‘We love corgis’) they want and what site (abc.org), and keep the email thread so that your original email with this information is still visible.

      My more professional approach (which I honestly don’t love because it feels like caving to their lack of reading comprehension but sometimes you focus on the greater good of work harmony):
      Here’s the info for the requested quote –
      Message – ‘We love corgis’
      Site – abc.org

    3. Fikly*

      There was a beautiful thread on twitter recently about passive-aggressive phrases used in work emails and what they really mean.

      Link to a summary post in reply.

    4. Joie*

      “As per my last email” = professional way to say “did you even read it?”

      I use that one a lot. It seems to have worked a few times, but other times you’re just stuck with someone who will reply before fully reading no matter what you say to them.

      “As per my original email, they are looking for a new message on site abc.org that says ‘We love corgis’. “

    5. Arts Akimbo*

      Oh. My. Gawd. Nothing brings me from zero to BEC faster than someone not reading my email.

      Me: “This data is incorrect and needs to be changed in the document. Here is the exact information you need, word for word.”

      Recipient: “WHAT IS THE INFORMATION NEEDING CHANGE?”

      Me: [head explodes in silent, ineffectual rage]

  88. Gemma*

    Does anyone have any advice for dealing with anxiety when writing cover letters? I’ve read the many articles on how to write a cover letter on this website but I’m still struggling to get out of my head and get the thing done. On top of that, some of the skills needed for the role I’m applying to are from a toxic job I recently finished a contract for. It’s been a few weeks since I finished but it’s still hard to focus on my job hunt.

    1. same boat*

      I have a lot of anxiety about it too. One thing that has helped me is having like a baseline one that I obviously customize to the job I’m applying for. I’m back on the job hunt and I’ve been working on just writing paragraphs about specific accomplishments and projects that I can use for a cover letter so at least when I sit down to write a cover letter I’m not starting with a blank page and thinking about how unaccomplished and worthless I am.

      Also telling myself that a cover letter completed and submitted before the job posting is closed is better than a perfect cover letter completed when the position has been filled.

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Three thoughts for you. Cover letters get easier the more you do, because you can steal the best parts and reuse the structure over and over again. The first one is hardest.

      Mindset: perfect is the enemy of done.

      Process: Just start writing. Get something on paper: bullet points, rambly train of thought, copy the job listing into your file and write direct responses to the job requirements, talk out loud while a friend transcribes you – whatever it takes.

      Take a break, let that settle.

      Once it’s on paper, start refining it into an actual letter. Don’t start by deleting anything, just shuffle stuff around from step 1. You probably won’t wind up using all of it, but keep it all until the very end. Read examples, steal structural elements, start whittling down from your brain-dump in step 1. Once it’s letter-shaped, let it sit overnight.

      Refine it further. It may be ready to send at this point, you may need to do one or two more passes. At some point, decide that it’s done and you need to send it. I like to always let it sit overnight and do one final pass, tweak one or two last things, and push the button before I can chicken out.

      My files from this kind of thing always look like:
      notes
      notes
      clippings, notes

      To Whom,
      I’m excited about Position at Company for Reasons. I’m accomplished and talented, and I would like to place those talents in service of your goals. I look forward to speaking with you about this exciting opportunity.
      Sincerely,
      Harry Crewe

      outtakes, notes
      fragments
      the second half of the paragraph that I rewrote two drafts ago
      etc.

    3. JustaTech*

      You could think of it as a school essay – something you want to do well on, but not something you’ve invested your soul in. You can even try outlining it like a 5-paragraph essay (but don’t write it that way because it’s the wrong format).

      Or, you could try to imagine that you’re writing the letter as someone else: it’s not you writing about you, it’s you writing about your best friend, or your best friend writing about you.

  89. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Lawyers or folks in the legal profession: I am in a 101 legal studies class and I got dinged recently for using the singular “they” as a gender-neutral pronoun because, quote, “the legal profession is old-school and follows those rules :)”

    When I asked what the appropriate gender-neutral singular was in the legal profession, I got no reply. Anybody?

    1. CTT*

      I would never use it in a document or in a courtroom setting since I would want to refer to a specific person (unless I was referring to someone who is non-binary), but if it was just in conversation, I think it’s okay. Although that’s a good roundabout lesson about working with lawyers – they have their quirks when it comes to writing and you have to get used to it. I work with one person who thinks you should ALWAYS put “the” before a defined term (like “the ‘Borrower'”) and one who thinks you should NEVER put in the; there’s no grammar rules behind it, just extremely held personal preferences. I’m morbidly curious to know what mine will end up being.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      As you will learn, statutes and regulations are old school and use “he.” Often, you can avoid the pronoun by using a general noun like “plaintiff.”

      1. trueblue*

        Paralegal here, with many friends in law school. My first supervisor was a lawyer whose pronouns were “they/them/their.” When people say “the legal profession is old school” what they mean is, the legal profession is actively trying to stay inaccessible to people from all walks of life. Push back! When writing for court, if a judge takes umbrage at your use of singular they, the good thing about being a lawyer is you get to argue your case. I think you’ll find very few judges will care to push back too much – especially considering the huge amount of various other ‘grammatical inconsistencies’ I see filed with no push back on a daily basis!

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      The legal profession is very broad, and the answer will be context-dependent.

      If you’re writing an employee handbook or other document for HR, then a singular “they” is probably just fine. Depending on the organization and the type of document, you can often put it in the second person and use “you.”

      If you’re writing correspondence, then you need to be accurate and precise while also keeping your audience in mind. What works in one letter may not work in another.

      If you’re writing something that will be filed with a court, then you’re almost certainly better off using non-gender-neutral pronouns, or getting around the issue by repeating “plaintiff” or “respondent” or whatever, or “PartyName” over and over again.

      If you’re drafting legislation, I’m actually interested to hear what the trends are in that arena.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I was answering a question on a homework assignment, a la “When a paralegal is juggling teapots, they need to be careful to not flub their footwork on the unicycle as well.” The specific feedback was “paralegal is singular, they is plural.”

        I dug up a link referencing the singular “they” as 2015’s “word of the year” and mentioned that it was accepted on a wide level now, which is when I got the nonsense about the legal profession being old school. :P

        (She also thanked me for introducing her to the word “outliers,” which threw me off quite a bit.)

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Or you could point out that singular they has been in common English use since the 14th century; it wasn’t until the 18th century that people started saying ‘no, you can’t’. Check out the Wikipedia entry for ‘Singular they’

          My response is generally, ‘if it’s good enough for Austen and Shakespeare, it’s good enough for me.’
          ——–
          There’s not a man I meet but doth salute me
          As if I were their well-acquainted friend
          ——-
          A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3
          (a man -> their)

        2. Glomarization, Esq.*

          nonsense about the legal profession being old school

          I mean, legal English is not the same as literary or conversational English. A person can argue ’til they’re blue in the face about the singular “they” and how long its been around. But legal English is a technical language that can require strict adherence to convention and rules of drafting. You can fiddle with the singular “they” in the context of something like your homework assignment, but you probably really don’t want to fight this fight when it comes to other, real-world legal writing tasks.

          As an example, for myself when I’m writing up a contract, I’ll try hard to avoid “he or she” and “his or hers” because it’s clumsy. But I won’t substitute with the singular “they” and “their(s),” because that could actually change the meaning of, or introduce ambiguity into, a sentence or clause. There are other, better, and safer ways to draft elegant legalese than to die on the hill of the singular “they.”

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            No, that’s fair, and if I had actually been writing an example of a legal document, I wouldn’t be calling it nonsense. But between the fact that I wasn’t doing that, I was writing an academic response, in which the singular “they” is acceptable, and the fact that when I asked her what an acceptable alternative would be in technical legal writing and she just didn’t bother to answer, I found the situation frustrating and I wanted to know if there was an actual answer. :)

            1. Fikly*

              As I learned when taking a class on international law, academic papers that involve law are a completely different beast to write than academic papers on any other topic.

          2. Forrest Rhodes*

            “But I won’t substitute with the singular “they” and “their(s),” because that could actually change the meaning of, or introduce ambiguity into, a sentence or clause.”
            I agree, Glomarization, Esq. Specifically in legal documents, a singular “they” can lead to all kinds of (intentional or un-) misinterpretations and confusion.

            1. Inclusion*

              Then be smart about it and add a clarifying footnote at the beginning of the document? It’s truly very easy.

    4. BB*

      Bryan Garner, the legal writing authority, says “Shun sexist language, but do so invisibly.” So rephrase the sentence to avoid needing to use a gender-neutral singular pronoun.

      One example he gives:

      Not: “Under California law, an employee must exhaust his administrative remedies under the Fair Employment Housing Act before he sues his employer under the Act.”

      And not the awkward singular they: “Under California law, an employee must exhaust their administrative remedies under the Fair Employment Housing Act before they sue their employer under the Act.”

      But: “Under California law, an employee must exhaust any administrative remedies under the Fair Employment Housing Act before suing the employer under the Act.”

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Garner’s doing the lord’s work trying to get lawyers to write in plain English. I’m a big fan of his.

  90. Definitely Anon for THIS one*

    Need advice dealing with insubordination in the office. But not subordinates being insubordinate.
    I work in a team of about 60 people in a government setting, and there is a lot of movement between the groups within the team. The person I currently report to in my team, and the person who I reported to previously, are friends who were hired in from another organization. Those two are engaged in a battle of wills with the three levels of management above them, to the point where legal mechanisms are being used on both sides. Basically, the person I report to is being wildly insubordinate to their boss(es). I have a great working relationship with my immediate supervisor’s supervisor; I think my immediate superior is in over their head and doesn’t know what they are doing. Senior management has noticed this and immediate supervisor is doubling down on being insubordinate. (This could be resolved in the short-term; it might not. Those of us at the bottom of the food chain are being kept in the dark, probably to protect us, but possibly because things have gotten so ugly.)
    Aside from waiting to see where the bodies fall, and seeing who’s left once the legal claims are over, how do you know where to prioritize your work and keep from getting caught up in the bloodshed?

    1. RC Rascal*

      Made inquiries in email; keep anyone who might need to know copied.
      Keep your mouth shut a lot.
      Stay out of other people’s conflicts, head down, do your work.
      Stay politically as neutral as possible.

    2. LQ*

      Try very hard to stay in the dark. If you can find a way to care less about being reassigned things/swinging between things, do so. Basically aim to do what you were told most recently and 100% blame it on the person who told you to do it. If your 3 levels up boss stops by and says do X, do it. If your 1 level up boss stops by angry that you’re doing X not Y, say you’re sorry you’re just doing what were told by senior leadership, and change to Y.

      If you’ve got a union, you’ll likely come out fine on the other side because this kind of conflict is something the union should be able to be a shield for.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Document- confirm instructions in writing so if things blow up you can show you were doing as instructed, and ask for clarification where there is a conflict.
      Also, make sure you know your employer’s policies ad push back if asked to breach them.
      Otherwise, do as your supervisor instructs unless & until someone more senior tells you to do something different.

    4. Joie*

      Document document document.

      Every time you get a verbal task write down the date, time and who assigned it – even if this is normal scope stuff. When writing them down no task is too small – On Feb 10 2020 : Jane asked me to research Llama Grooming Inc for her, Jane asked me to change the format on form X777 for Galaxy, Mary asked me to change the format of form X777 back to original before sending to Galaxy etc. If you have a day timer just jot in there or open a word doc and just sort it by date.

      Anything and everything you can get in email is best. Send summaries of verbal conversations regarding your work, ask for clarification on tasks in email etc. Do what you are instructed to do, just make sure you document everything around it – specifically because legal is involved.

    5. andy*

      In addition to what others said, familiarize yourself with all laws and regulations that govern your work. And follow them to the t and be aware that legal system is used in fight. (In addition of that being more ethical anyway.)

      I don’t know what their conflict is about. But I do know that people in massive fights sometimes give instructions that break the law to those under them. Given that legal is used in this fight, it is quite likely somebody was following rules and regulations exactly.

  91. JustaTech*

    What is a worse thing to think of a coworker (based on their behavior and performance): that they’re really just not very smart, or that they might have a drinking problem?

    I have plenty of evidence for “not very good at their job” in ways that make me think this person just isn’t very smart. But other coworkers have commented that this person occasionally slurs their words and has been in a fender-bender on the way to work. I think that’s hardly conclusive. None of us work at the same site as this person, and so we have no in-person evidence, nor would we say anything to this person’s boss about this supposition (we have talked about the performance issues but nothing has changed).

    I feel like it’s somehow more unkind to think that a person has a drinking problem than to think that they are just not very smart or good at their job.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      ‘Not good at their job’ is the kindest option. It describes the situation without speculating about the causes. It is generally unkind to speculate about causes.

      But keep in mind, alcoholism is an illness, not a moral failing.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh absolutely it’s not a moral failing. Frankly, if there’s any moral failing here it’s this person’s boss for not managing their performance.

        I’d rather be generous (it helps my interactions) and it’s not that hard because while this person isn’t good at their job and that is very frustrating, they’re nice and well-intentioned. I’ll put it out of my mind.

    2. Policy wonk*

      I work with several people who slur their words. One has a speech impediment that is usually under control but comes out under stress. Another a dental problem. And in the DC area just listen to the traffic reports – there are multiple fender benders every day. You don’t have evidence of a drinking problem. It is possible, but you don’t know anything. Assume not good at the job and don’t join in the gossip. You’ll be better off.

    3. Tinker*

      I have a hard time figuring how to measure “worse” or “unkind” in this matter — to me it seems like you’re talking about things that don’t necessarily have moral weight and aren’t necessarily a matter of kindness.

      Whether the person does or does not have a drinking problem, say, is just a fact. If it’s true, there’s nothing bad or unkind about noticing evidence that this is the case and coming to a conclusion. Even if it’s false, that’s a matter of being incorrect in a conclusion about facts (and maybe lacking knowledge or having biases in some area), not about being bad.

      Concluding that the person is of lesser value on this basis would be an unkind thing to think, probably. Acting in some way that is unfairly detrimental to the person (such as making them the subject of rampant gossip, particularly if the material is not well founded) would be morally wrong. But the person’s state and your experience of having observed it are just things that are.

      1. Tinker*

        … possibly I have been unduly literal, too.

        You’re saying “what is a worse thing to think of a coworker” and I am literally thinking of thoughts — your own state of mind that is not externally observable in the traditional sense. I probably have all sorts of thoughts about my coworkers. I just now, for purposes of an example, entertained the thought that one of my coworkers is secretly a dinosaur and imagined an image of them wearing one of those humorous dinosaur suits. So what? Brains do that.

        Acting ON that thought, such as by sharing those thoughts with other people, is another matter. Depending on the context, if you have sufficiently good reason to think that this coworker is intoxicated when they should not be it would be wrong not to point this out to some appropriate party. On the other hand, if you’re sharing these conclusions around the water cooler with arbitrary peers, particularly on the basis of things like “had a fender-bender” and “at some point slurred words”, that’s doing harm to the person for no compelling reason and it would be better to stop.

        1. JustaTech*

          Right! This actually wasn’t something I had ever thought; some other coworkers brought it up. I think (and I said then) that I didn’t agree with my other coworker’s theory (of a drinking problem), and it hasn’t come up again. If it does, I’ll reiterate that I don’t agree and that it isn’t helpful to not-great-coworker or to the rest of us in general.

          Overall it was more of a case of “what is up with that guy?!” where their performance is just so odd that it lends itself to some wild speculation (is actually from Mars, is really three kids in a trenchcoat, that kind of thing). I’ll be sure to shut it down in the future.

    4. RagingADHD*

      How is either thought/opinion going to affect your behavior toward the person?

      Either way, the person has problems and is bad at their job. Either way, if their problems cause more work for you and you have no authority to hold them accountable, it’s going to be frustrating. How to cope with that situation professionally and humanely is the important issue.

      Maybe they are stupid and also have a substance abuse problem. The two are certainly not mutually exclusive.

      The kind and professional thing to do is to continue pointing out the impact of their mistakes to management, make the performance issues management’s problem instead of your own.

      And for the love of all that is lovely, quit gossiping with your coworkers behind that person’s back. That is far more unkind than thoughts inside your head.

      1. JustaTech*

        Right! Professional professional professional. That’s the only way to go.

        And to be clear, other coworkers brought this up, and it’s only come up once, so it’s not ongoing gossiping (which we’re trying really hard to not let get started).

        And from everything everyone’s had to say, it’s also more unkind to think that this person might have a problem and that all the other people who work with them in person (I’m at a different site) would just ignore a serious problem.

        Honestly, thank you all for reminding me to be professional, even with really trying people.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Well, I don’t know about what others are saying.

          I’m saying neither opinion is kinder than the other. Because both of those thoughts are just inner reactions of frustration. They are irrelevant.

          The kind thing is to remind yourself that it’s none of your business *why* they are bad at their job. They are, period. End of your concern.

    5. Anon for this one*

      “has been in a fender-bender on the way to work” [as evidence of a drinking problem]

      What?

      I was hit from behind on my way to work in 2015 (while 100% sober, in case it needs to be said); I was stationary in traffic and the person coming up behind apparently didn’t see that I had stopped, and went into my rear bumper. I wasn’t hurt (mostly because I couldn’t take the time off due to deadlines… so didn’t check about whiplash or whatever, but it was also a very slow speed accident) but couldn’t drive the car afterward either.

      I wouldn’t be very impressed if you attributed my (at the time) performance issues at work to a “drinking problem” because I had been hit from behind and had slurred speech occasionally.

      For what it’s worth I may have have slurred speech (again, not due to alcohol) because of a stressfull time at work during which I was barely sleeping, eating, was sustaining myself on caffeine and occasional packets of crisps (chips for our US colleagues) and loosing about 5 pounds a week at that point.

      1. JustaTech*

        I thought it was odd too, for that single incident to be “has a drinking problem”. I would just attribute it to “lives in a city full of cars”.

        And the slurred and also deeply disjointed speech existed both before and after this accident, so I would not have attributed it to the accident either.

        As far as I know this person is not working that hard at all, they’re just, not very smart/good at their job. As I said above, I thought it was a weird theory, and everyone’s comments have convinced me it’s both weird and unuseful.

        1. WellRed*

          Interestingly, we had two employees in a short time with drinking problems. One got fired for being drunk on the job, ( breathalyzer in parking lot by local cops after fender
          Bender in lot that she didn’t stop for) and one who resigned to go to rehab. In both cases, it was not a surprise. Drinking problems often show in many tangible ways, is what I’m trying to say. It’s not simply “bad at job” or “not very bright.”

    6. IBonkedMyHeadRealGood*

      I think you should work hard to shut down the drinking rumor unless there has been actual evidence.

      Slurring of words could come from anything – a head injury, a speech impediment, they don’t sleep well, etc Plus everything you described could be from a bad day to migraine/headache to insomnia excluding drinking as an option. There is so many things it could be other then alcoholism and it could be really damaging to their career to be the “drunk driver” of the office.

      From someone who has a permanent slur and balance issues from a severe head injury 10+ years ago.

  92. Arielle*

    It’s the end of my first week back at work post-maternity leave. So far I have managed not to refer to myself as “Mommy” in the third person, although someone sneezed and I found myself saying, “Oh my GOODNESS!” like I do with my four-month-old.

    2. Policy wonk*

      Congrats! Mommy-isms will come out from time to time; either ignore them or roll with it. If you aren’t embarrassed, your colleagues won’t be either. (Though depending on your workplace you may get teased a bit. Just wait until you are toilet training and excuse yourself to go to the potty!)

      And welcome back to work!

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      gets worse during the potty training phase and you start telling coworkers you have to go “pee-pee” before the meeting

    4. WellRed*

      Not a mom, but worked part time at busy bookstore where I’d basically call anyone under the age of 18 hon. Forgot where I was the day my boss said, “ hey, WellRed?” And I responded with “ yes, hon?”

  93. Winifred*

    I recently re-read Alison’s reply regarding leveraging a job offer to negotiate a salary increase at one’s current employer (generally a bad idea for several reasons).

    However, I may soon be in the position of leaving my job purely because of its low pay, and am wondering if my employer comes back with a counteroffer without my asking (they’d have to match my new salary offer), if it’s still a good idea to change employers? Has anyone been in that situation?

    I do like everything about my current job, except its low pay. But I imagine the feeling with my employer will lurk, that “hey we’re now paying you $XX more, what have you got to show for it,” etc.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Once my job found out I was job hunting and gave me a very large raise to keep me. I stayed for another three years and then found something else. It wasn’t a bad situation, but it happened organically. It’s hard to job hunt in higher ed and have people not wonder why you’re suddenly needing three days off to travel with little notice. Seriously. Having said that, I do think you need to decide if more pay would really solve the problems you have and how would you feel if you left anyway? I think you can largely cross this bridge once you have an offer.

    2. Fikly*

      If they give you a counteroffer, do you have any reason to think that they will continue to raise your pay, or will you just end up back in this same situation of being underpaid in x amount of time?

    3. LilySparrow*

      I had that situation once. In that instance, I really liked my job in every other way. I was being paid on the more junior/low end of the market and had not been at the job very long.

      The offer was from a competitor and would have put me in line with the middle of the market. My firm matched it, so I stayed.

      It was a support role that didn’t really have upward mobility, so relative raises in future weren’t much of a consideration. Basically once you get put in a band, everyone in that band gets the same COL increases over time.

      I was happy there until I left the field for unrelated reasons.

  94. no name today*

    I’ve posted at varying points in the recent past about how to handle various issues I’ve been having at work, but I’ve been thinking a lot more about WHY those issues exist in the first place, and I’ve come to realize it’s because I took a job that wasn’t a good fit for me because I wanted an in at this company. I had heard that here it’s easy to move around once you’re in, and they do their best to keep employees once they are hired. However, my boss has now blocked my chance to do that twice, while becoming increasingly unhappy with my performance (yet not being able to tell me what I’m doing wrong or what I need to do to improve when I ask– “you should be figuring that out on your own!” is a direct quote).

    I’ve been here for 2 years and I know it’s time to move on, but I’m struggling with a couple things. Firstly, I’m pretty burnt out from doing a job I don’t like and am not good at, and I also have a hard time talking about my accomplishments in interviews. I have quite a few of them at this job, but they don’t make me FEEL successful, I think because I’m so unhappy. I recently bombed an interview because they could tell how burnt out I am, and I don’t want to present myself that way again.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation, and if so, how did you handle it? Does anyone have any advice for this type of situation in general?

    1. blepkitty*

      Are you mentioning your accomplishments in cover letters? It’s a lot easier to fake enthusiasm in those, and then in the interview, sometimes someone interviewing you will excitedly mention your past experience with grooming feisty baby llamas, which might seem like old hat to you because you’ve been doing it forever but is actually exciting to them, the people who were hoping for someone with feisty baby llama grooming skills! I often find other people’s enthusiasm about my skills helps me feel more enthusiastic about them, too.

  95. Cromch*

    The company I work at got acquired this week so it’s been a pretty gruelling few days. I think it’s mostly going to be okay, it’s just a lot of change to adjust to. Does anyone have M&A experiences to share? I think just knowing other people have gone through it and come out the other side would be super reassuring, but I’m also open to hearing your horror stories or hilarious anecdotes (I could most definitely use a laugh)

    1. cmcinnyc*

      I’ve been through it a couple of times but not for years and years. It’s nerve-wracking, there’s no way around it. There’s a lot of uncertainty, and generally the communication takes two distinct forms: top-down communications that come out of the blue, and a wildly churning and unreliable rumor mill. The less you get caught up in the rumor mill, the less anxious you will be. By caught up I mean, repeating and analyzing what you hear. You’ll want to listen, but if you don’t *know* anything don’t *say* anything. It’s really easy to get rolling with speculation and then start hearing it as fact down the line–when it isn’t. Breathe, do your job, and try to have your out-of-work time be fun and relaxing and good for you (the gym, see friends, keep up hobbies) if that’s possible.

      1. Cromch*

        This is such good advice, especially about the rumour mill (which, yes, has been churning wildly) and about making sure my time outside work is satisfying. Thank you! I really appreciate it.

      1. Cromch*

        Ugh, more good advice. I’ve been meaning to do it anyway (just to have on hand), so I should probably just bite the bullet.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          If you rely on any company database for job history or Awards records, save a copy of that or printed out now. That way you won’t lose the history if they drop off old information when they merge records from the two companies.

    3. JustaTech*

      Oh, please let me share the terrible/funny story of when my company was bought by the Evil Canadians. (They really were evil, but not really Canadians, but that’s where the company was registered.)

      We were warned that the EC folks liked to move fast, and they would be doing a lot of merging of “universal” departments like HR and Finance. Well, those EC folks moved so fast they fired the entire Scheduling department, because whatever, you can schedule your own meetings. Except that’s not what Scheduling did. Imagine if you fired the scheduling department of, say, an entire airline. Yeah.

      So then they had to hire all those folks back (like the next day), let them keep their severance, and I think everyone who came back negotiated a pay raise.
      So that was the hilarious part.

      Most everything else with EC wasn’t great, but then they turned out to not be quite as good at business as they thought and sold us off to some nice people in another country and it’s been much better.

      But yes, everyone prepped their resume, because it’s hard to predict what departments or projects the new overlords will jettison.

      Good luck!

    4. Old and Don’t Care*

      It’s a really hard thing to go through, and the previous posters had good advice. Expect a lot of change. It’s best to emotionally disengage from that. In one acquisition I went through our operations department had spent months on a slick new data collection method. The new owners got rid of it and went back to stone knives and bearskins. It was probably a really bad decision but it was theirs to make. In general they people who do best let go of the way things used to be the quickest. Discussions about how “we always used to have President’s Day off” get old fast and become toxic.

      Look out for yourself.

  96. Update re problematic co-worker*

    I posted towards the end of last year about a co-worker whose behaviour I felt uncomfortable about, although I couldn’t put my finger on why. There were some additional non-NT issues to put into the mix. I got some useful reassurance and opinions.

    The co-worker has since left before his project came to an end, and I think it possible that someone else has had an experience that they could definitively point to as inappropriate.

    Thanks, all!

  97. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    This is a question that occurred to me with today’s LW5 (https://www.askamanager.org/2020/02/should-you-mention-an-employees-smell-during-a-reference-check-and-more.html): What do you do if all of your prior jobs are relevant to a new position? I’m going to be going on 20ish years with 7 jobs in my field that together have given me skills to be in the running for senior SME positions. I feel like I need to keep all of them so that I can show 20 years of doing A, 15 of doing B, 13 of doing C in X number of different situations, etc.. I anticipate having at least another 5-7 jobs before retiring, so would it make sense to drop some of the older experiences at some point, even if they are relevant? Or just keep them all and have a slightly long resume? Or something else?

    1. Laura H.*

      Maybe address more of the “whole” scope in your cover letter? Or look at what seems repeated and maybe cut out the instances of repetition where you can and address it in the cover letter as well?

      I’m tossing ideas and hoping it sticks rather than “This works for me” advice.

    2. OtterB*

      My husband had this problem juggling his resume. He’s an engineer, and sometimes the technical experience from Way Back is still relevant even when he’s been doing other stuff in the meantime. In his most recent job hunt his most applicable experience was 10-20 years old and he’s had several jobs in between. He had a base resume with details on lots of thing (worked with technology XYZ, managed construction of an ABC, developed cost estimates for LMN, etc.), but then tailored it for particular positions so included the relevant details but covered other positions with a brief explanation.

    3. asdf*

      If you’re going for a SME position, I’d do a longer resume. My industry isn’t really a stickler for one-page though, especially with SMEs. We need to see every little thing you have experience in to make sure you’re actually a SME.

      We had a guy with a 5 page resume. He got hired.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Once you hit 20 years, two pages is a reasonable length for a resume. If yours is longer, start dropping smaller impact results / outcomes.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I have nearly 30 years of professional experience at nine different jobs. As time goes on, experience from 20+ years ago doesn’t matter as much, so while I still have those jobs on my resume, the descriptions have shrunk considerably. So Job 1 (from 1990-1992) is still on there, but instead of five detailed bullets there’s just a short description of the relevant experience. My resume is still resolutely only two pages.

    6. ArtK*

      I’ve been working for 36+ years in the same field. I keep a master resume* with everything in it, all the way back. When I apply for a job, I tailor the resume to match the job description. Generally that means that much older jobs either drop off completely or get reduced to one line that has some relevance.

      *In truth, I keep two master resumes. One is for technical track and the other for management.

  98. blepkitty*

    Question from a socially awkward person: what’s a normal amount of eye contact to make in the hallways at work? And at what point do you greet people? We have a particularly long hallway that I have to walk down to get to the bathroom and kitchen, and it leaves me able to see people coming toward me in the hallway for so long that making eye contact and smiling and saying hi leaves a lot of empty time, and I’m not sure when to start saying hi (right when I see them? when we’re within normal “inside voice” speaking distance?) and what to do about eye contact in all that empty space. There’s one guy who stares at me the whole entire time, every time, and it definitely gives me the heebie jeebies, but there’s still a lot of middle ground that makes me anxious (I’ve been labeled “cold” and “unapproachable” often).

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      As soon as I initially make eye contact, I smile and wave, and then continue on unless the other person initiates conversation. I feel like this makes it so that you’re clearly acknowledging them but not being creepy.

    3. Colette*

      I deliberately focus elsewhere (turn my head, fumble for my phone, etc.) until I am close enough, then I smile and say hi, wave, or nod.

    4. ...*

      I would say make eye contact when you’re 3/4 of your distance to them and just say “hey” or “hellooo”

    5. RagingADHD*

      This is a good venue for the ‘sup nod: If you make eye contact when they are too far away to speak, do that little upward nod that indicates “what’s up?”

      Then when you are passing, say hey.

    6. Moth*

      I think I read somewhere about a 10/5 rule at a company. If you were 10 feet away from someone, you had to make eye contact and acknowledge them (e.g., smile) and if you were 5 feet away, you had to verbally speak to them (e.g., say hello). While I think it’s a little heavy-handed to make it a company rule, I like the idea of having defined distances in my mind. I find those distances to feel pretty natural to me for those acknowledgements. We have long hallways at work too and it does leave some awkward time when you’re walking towards each other, but are still far away. But in general, I think that all of us feel that awkwardness and just avoid looking at the other person!

  99. You can call me flower, if you want to*

    I just had my review, and I received very positive feedback. I also asked for a raise, and I am excited that it was approved. However, some feedback from my boss (who is awesome) has me confused. She suggested that I need to be more vulnerable at work. I don’t really know what that means. I am more than willing to admit when I don’t know something or when someone else would be a better fit for a project or something. Does anyone have any ideas about what she could mean? Is it important to be vulnerable at work? What does that look like? I like to keep my home and work life separate. Is that part of this? I don’t want this to hold me back. Any advice?

    1. trueblue*

      This could be a euphemism for your fit into the office culture – when people talk about being vulnerable, they usually mean making genuine human connections. I personally think that too many offices expect a weird amount of emotional labor (vulnerability) from their employees, but a generous reading may be that the only thing she could think of to offer for possible improvement is more connection with her or your peers.

    2. Lyudie*

      Ooh I bet she is referring to Brene Brown…”vulnerability” according to Brene Brown is something like being open, admitting when you need help or have made a mistake, not being defensive, that sort of thing. So kind of what you’re already thinking. But can you go back and ask her to expand on that comment?

      1. You can call me flower, if you want to*

        I’ve never heard Brene Brown. That’s interesting! I’ll ask her for clarification.

        1. Lyudie*

          She has some interesting ideas…there are some TED talks etc. that she’s done if that ends up being what your manager is going for.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      I think you need to ask her what she meant. (And, bonus, by returning to a challenging topic and asking about something you didn’t understand you’ll be showing vulnerability!)

      I’d say something like: “Manager, I wanted to circle back to something we talked about in my review. You suggested that I should be more vulnerable at work. I’m not opposed to that*, but I’d love to hear more about what you meant. Can you share some examples of times when I could have been more vulnerable, or ideas for what it could look like going forward?”

      *It doesn’t matter if you actually ARE opposed to that; this is just a rhetorical turn that you’ll use to demonstrate that you aren’t raising the topic as a way to push back, but rather that you genuinely want to understand what she meant.

    4. Kathenus*

      Sounds like you have a good relationship with your boss, so just ask her. Say what you did here – you’re not sure what this means. You are willing to admit when you don’t know something and when someone else is a better fit for a project. Ask her what specifically she’s referring to, because you take her feedback seriously and want to act on it and need and appreciate more context so that you are able to respond to it.

  100. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    Is anyone here a life coach or has anyone worked with one? I am considering doing it, I understand there can be a negative perception of them but I primarily want to help people with ADHD and autism with executive functioning skills (I have ADHD myself). I do not have a background in psychology, my background is in chemistry and environmental protection, but I do have a great interest in it and have taken it as an elective in college.

    1. Autumnheart*

      Erm, I think you’d need more qualifications than that before you would be taken as credible by potential clients. One of the biggest “scam” flags is seeing an ad for someone presenting themselves as a “life coach”, who has zero background in any kind of counseling-adjacent field. It’s right up there with “nutritionist” and “naturopath”.

    2. same boat*

      The resource section in Driven From Distraction definitely talks about ADHD coaches. Maybe look into what’s in there.

  101. I edit everything*

    Has anyone worked for the census? I applied a year ago and got a call this morning putting me into training for a supervisory position. Any insights or advice? The pay is half decent, and I could use some supplementary income, so we’ll see how it goes. I get paid for the training, and then they’ll decide whether to give me a real job, so I figure it’s worth doing the training, at least.

    1. RC Rascal*

      I worked for the 2000 Census. Back then the economy was so good and it was so hard to get help they actually positioned it as a paid community service opportunity. Which was a why I took it. I was living in an area away from home and thought I might meet some people and get to know the place.

      I took the training but then they never used me. It as a lot of really detailed information on how to fill out forms, fill in bubbles, and how to handle the Long Form, specially the questions asking about racial makeup.

      I bought my coffee table with the money from the training. It’s a nice Ethan Allen, Shaker style coffee table. Twenty years later I never get tired of looking at it.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My then-husband did it in 2010. He liked it well enough that I’ve heard through the grapevine he’s doing it again this year. (It worked out for me too, in that that’s where he met the woman he left me for – I was already planning my exit strategy – so all around victory.) He seemed to spend a lot of time “out in the field” working, but in retrospect, I don’t know how much of that was legitimate work vs him telling me he was working so he could go hang out with whats-her-name. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    3. I edit everything*

      Thanks, both. It sounds like it’s worth doing the training anyway, even if I only get a table out of it (or a credit card paid off).

  102. Vemasi*

    I know there are a lot of librarians on here, so I was looking to get some advice.

    I currently work in a high school library as an assistant. I like it a lot, but I’m also interested in other types of libraries. The pluses to school libraries are the small size, insular patron base, selection (I love YA, and the large amount of fiction), purposeful use of the library, having teachers as coworkers, regular hours and good working conditions with a union, and the independence to guide the collection and rules of the library (which my boss has, but if I continue I would have to eventually get my MLS and license and be my own librarian). The major con is that I purposely switched from an education major in college because I knew I didn’t want to be a teacher, and being so involved with the current state of public ed is detrimental to my mental health. Furthermore, state curriculum has changed and we hardly ever have classes in anymore, so I spend most of my time with nothing to do, whereas I would like to be helping teens pick out books.

    Even though I love all the YA fiction and teen topics, I also miss doing research and behind-the-scenes stuff, and dealing with adults. Whenever a teacher comes in to do research I get so excited. I think I would enjoy any of the specialties (the program I would do if I were going to do it has several specialties, including the basic school, academic and public libraries and archives), so I would like to hear everyone’s opinions on the pros and cons of different types of libraries.

    I’m in no hurry to get an MLS, due to fear of commitment and student loans. But I’m interested in moving on from my school in a couple years when my librarian retires, and would like to try out some different types of libraries in case I would like to be a librarian. I’m also sending out feelers to an independent book store in my town (the only one left, as far as I know) that deals in rare books as well. Any suggestions, advice, or even idle thoughts welcome.

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Working as a children’s librarian in a public library pops into my head first, but you may also explore the idea of working as an academic librarian with liaison responsibilities, specifically for education departments. My library has a fairly significant children’s literature section, but it’s designed for the education majors to create lesson plans and stay on top of current children’s literature.

      A caveat to this: it can be hard to get an academic librarian job with these specific parameters. You don’t always get to pick your liaison/subject specialty, and when jobs advertise for a specific area of expertise, the competition can be fierce for every librarian whose dream it is to work with these particular areas.

      1. Vemasi*

        I remember my college library had a similar children’s section, although I used it for leisure reading.

        I struggle with deciding on career paths because I love intellectual work, working with my hands, and talking to people (both cohorts and patrons/customers/the public), as well as high-level planning and small tedious tasks. I always worry that I will lock myself into one, because I like them all in short bursts and then get sick of them. So I’m especially hesitant to commit to a degree in something without trying to experience it first.

        Are non-student assistants in academic libraries even a thing? Can you get a taste for the field by being an assistant?

        1. Faith*

          I’ll be honest, a lot of people in academic libraries who are essentially non-student assistants (usually called library paraprofessionals or library associates if you’re looking at job titles) DREAM of working in a school library. They tend to get all the small tedious tasks, the un-fun patron stuff, and none of the intellectual work that the faculty/tenured librarians get. If you’re looking for a job with a good mix, you’re pretty much already in it. I would really consider getting the MLS and positioning yourself to step in when your boss retires if that’s at all possible. You’ll have much more freedom that way, and you’ll be well-positioned to move into public library work if you decide you’re tired of school library/media work.

          1. Vemasi*

            Is an MLS in any way limiting, like how a law degree is sometimes more harmful than helpful in getting hired outside the law? I would assume not, since most people don’t even know you need an advanced degree to be a librarian.

            I am not ambitious, and value freedom and mobility over everything, so I’m always afraid of locking myself into a path. Honestly this is something I should take to therapy, since it holds me back a lot.

            1. Kimmy Schmidt*

              I don’t think it’s particularly limiting, especially because there are a lot of adjacent information fields. Data, records management, IT, working in other academic departments (assessment, academic records, outreach), UX, digital humanities.

              I think the biggest thing with getting an MLIS degree is the ability to be flexible. Be willing to move or be willing to cast a broad net when you apply for jobs.

        2. Kimmy Schmidt*

          The kind of work you can do to get a taste of the academic library life varies wildly, based on your location and the types of schools around you.

          The most common experience is as a library assistant/associate/paraprofessional. However, as Faith mentions below, these can often involve fairly rote tasks, and you have to do those tasks. There is sometimes room to do professional development and take on interesting roles in projects, but this will usually be in addition to the day to day component of your job.
          You might also be able to volunteer for special projects, although usually public libraries have more need for volunteers. Beyond that, I’d recommend that you try to do informational interviews with academic librarians or attend webinars (there are many online for free) about what it’s actually like in an academic environment.

          1. Kimmy Schmidt*

            Oh, and another note. If there is a MLS degree offered at the university where you work or a partner institution, you can often get the degree for a reduced cost while you work at the library.

            1. Vemasi*

              You’ve given me a lot to think about. I’ve never even thought of department liaisons within academic libraries, for one, but of course it makes sense. Thank you.

    2. Faith*

      If you’re interested in an academic university library, I would say you’re definitely going to need an MLS if you want to do the research/teaching stuff. Not at all academic libraries, but at enough of them. Certainly if you want to be paid decently (getting a non-faculty library position that wouldn’t require an MLS usually means a pay cut for someone working at a high school, no matter how much experience you’ve got–yes, the pay is that low, and you will be lucky to get COL raises; enrollment in most universities is starting to dip and will only get worse over the next few years, which means funding is dropping; we didn’t even get COL raises last year at my university, and this year, we’re just hoping everyone can keep their jobs).

      Honestly, your job sounds pretty damn awesome as it is, especially since you could probably move into the spot your librarian will vacate when they retire. There’s not a lot of room for moving up in academic libraries unless you’re interested in (and can find) a faculty/tenure track job, and would eventually enjoy moving into administration. But if that’s something that you want, then you can definitely do it (and that would make decent money), and the field could always use more people who have more wide-ranging experience w/ students. It’s pretty competitive out there, but if you got an MLIS, you’d have a good shot since you’d have some library experience that a lot of other people wouldn’t.

      I have no idea what the state of public libraries are other than that the friends I have who work in them get to see some great sides of the public, and some really yucky sides of the public; it really runs the gamut and depends a lot upon where the public library is located, and how involved the local community is. And as for archives, that’s a whole other ballpark I don’t know enough about to even comment on.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      As someone who just got 86 applications for an entry level archives job, I would be really wary before choosing archives/rare books as your specialty. It’s an amazing field (and I love what I do), but the competition for jobs is so fierce that you have to be willing to move and be willing to work twice as hard to get in the door. People say they are, but then when the reality of the struggle hits, than they often balk at the idea. However, my sense is that academic and public jobs are more available. I do think you need to be willing to move. If you’re willing to be flexible about where you live, than you have many more options. Frankly, in many parts of the country, more librarians are graduating than jobs are opening up, so geography plays a big role here, I think.

      1. Vemasi*

        I would absolutely have to move if I wanted to work in archives. Even setting aside competition, there are museums and universities where I live, but they are all very small. I’d be surprised if there are more than a handful of positions, or any. It’s probably not for me, but I’ve always been wistfully fascinated by archives and special collections.

    4. blepkitty*

      If you like the YA recommending aspect but not the teaching, I’d say YA librarian at a public library sounds like a good thing to look into (and since you have experience with reader’s advisory with teens, you might even be able to get a job in that field). Note: I am neither a public nor school librarian.

      1. Vemasi*

        My local system does have YA librarians at some branches, and I have an in at the main branch (my summer job works out of the YA section). If I moved to a public library, I don’t think I’d want to work exclusively with teens. But I’d also probably want to go to a smaller branch where the departments are less separated, so I’d end up seeing a lot of teens anyway.

        1. blepkitty*

          If you have an in, that’s great! Even better because you can get a feel for any dysfunctionality there. The most frequent complain of any librarian in any field I know is a toxic workplace. Depending on how well-funded and urban the library is, though, there might be a lot of pressure to get your MLS.

          I’ve been in reference in both academic and research libraries, and I have to say that spells of boredom seem to come with the territory. Sometimes you’ll have a ton of people demanding your attention at once, and sometimes you’ll go weeks feeling like nobody remembers you exist. So that might be something to think about if you’re really bothered by boredom.

  103. Super Duper Anon*

    This isn’t a question, just a happy post! I just got the best performance review of my entire career. I have never had any really negative ones, just the usual “doing a good job, work more on this thing”. This one was just gushing about how great I am and how happy my manager is to have me. Even when were chatting in the meeting, none of my multi-raters said anything negative. Only comment I got was that I should attend a certain meeting more which is easily fixable. I got an exceeds expectations for the first time in my life! The compensation/promotion discussions are happening this month at the higher-up level, but I did get recommended to be promoted up to the next level, so I am crossing my fingers.

  104. Pilcrow*

    Messing with managers ;)
    or
    Light-hearted ways to make tedious/unpleasant tasks more palatable

    I hate doing status reports (hated doing book reports as a kid, too). For the last few weeks I’ve been putting a stupid joke and/or funny animal pic at the bottom of my status report email to my manager. I’m waiting to see how long it is until she says something.

    I find the distraction of looking for a silly joke or pic is a nice diversion from status report tedium. What are your hated tasks and coping mechanisms?

    This week was a knock-knock joke:
    Knock knock.
    Who’s there?
    Cow says.
    Cow says who?
    No, a cow says mooooo!

    1. Amber Rose*

      I include a silly Dilbert comic at the end of every training presentation I have to do, and I usually include one terrible joke at the end of any quizzes I have to give.

      The last one was: What do you call a fish with no eyes? A fsh!

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        um, are you aware that the Dilbert creator has gone full Men’s Rights Activist (MRA) and has said a lot of misogynist, racist and crappy stuff? That comic might not be coming across as silly as you think. (And I say this as someone who was once proud to be Alice, back in the 90s)

        “women are treated differently by society for exactly the same reason that children and the mentally handicapped are treated differently. It’s just easier this way for everyone”

        2. ArtK*

          I’d stay faaaaaaar away from Scott Adams for that very reason. Personally, I thought that the strip stopped being funny around 1991 (launched in 1989.) There are only so many ways you can repackage the same 3 jokes.

    2. Kathenus*

      I think this is great. I used to work somewhere where the weekend duty officer had to write a report that got sent out to a large leadership group. I always included some funny lighthearted things here and there, but also included all needed information and did it professionally. I got nothing but positive comments about how my reports were more interesting and fun to read than the boring ones. So I think you have a great approach on this, I’d love it if one of my direct reports did this to me!

  105. Canadian anon*

    Should I tell my boss that my new coworker sells pot? it’s legal to smoke it, but not legal to sell it where I live. And we work in an area where he could easily find “clients” looking for pot while at work. I am not saying he’d blur the lines, but given it’s possible that he could, and it would be hard for him to get caught. Basically this a situation I haven’t dealt with before, and my anxiety is looking at all the ways it could go badly.

    2. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      As long as you have no evidence they’re selling it on the job, NO! It’s none of your business and isn’t harming you.

    3. Bee*

      No. This is not your problem. Stay out of it unless and until there is an actual work-related issue to report. Right now you have nothing.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I think you should stay out of it.

      But if you feel the need to report illegal activity, that’s what the police are for. Your boss isn’t a cop, why would you tell them?

      Unless your boss actually is a cop, and you work in law enforcement. Then you should definitely report it.

      1. valentine*

        I would report it.

        You don’t want your first report to be to the police, lest that cause trouble for your employer.

    6. Blueberry*

      I would suggest strategically forgetting this. (FWIW I think he should not have burdened you with the knowledge.)

  106. Coverage Associate*

    I am in a volunteer leadership position for a religious nonprofit and am looking for resources regarding setting up a 403(b) for our one employee. One quote from an organization referred by a friend was about $1,500 per employee annually.

    This is after learning that the denomination has millions, but not enough, set aside for pensions. Because there was never enough to start a pension plan, none was ever promised, so there’s no legal or accounting problem with underfunding, but I am also looking for advice about moving those funds into a defined contribution plan.

    1. MicroBusiness Owner*

      Here is the chart that my financial advisor gave to me when I wanted to set up a retirement plan for my two-employee company. https://www.fidelity.com/retirement-ira/small-business/compare-plans

      My takeaway was that a 401k (which I believe is similar to a 403b) was a lot more complicated and expensive, for not a lot more benefit (at my size). I went with a SIMPLE IRA. It allows the company to offer a small matching contribution, or just have it be an employee thing.

      I don’t know if the rules of what can be used by a non-profit is different, but this might be a start to ask questions. I set ours up through my fee-only financial advisor (i.e., no commissions). It’s worked well.

  107. Lovecraft Beauty*

    Work conference travel: is it normal to fly in the day before the conference starts and leave the day after?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I think so. Normally the conferences I’ve been to have started 8-9AM, and I’ve had a 3ish hour travel time, so you get in (fly or drive) the night before, and if the conference goes until 4-6PM ish, we’d stay and leave the day after. If it got done at noon or so then we’d leave that day.

    2. I edit everything*

      It depends on the length of the trip and the start/end times. If your first obligation is at 3:00 p.m., and it’s a 2-hour flight, then an early morning flight would be normal, at least when I went to conferences. But I imagine it would also depend on your workplace’s specific norms.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Very normal to fly in the day before. My employer prefers that we fly out on the last day of the conference, but will make reasonable exceptions.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s normal for us, unless it’s within 2 hours of our facility. Then we’d go same day usually but that’s still negotiable. We let people choose in the end, we don’t have a hard and fast rule.

      We don’t want people rushing from the end of a conference to get their stuff and make a flight. It’s not safe for them and it’s also leaving us open for flight issues. It’s much better to have them fly out the next morning.

    5. Katniss Evergreen*

      Government does this, when the time frames for the activity make sense (i.e. fly in a day early if your meeting starts in the morning, fly out the day after if the meeting ends around/after COB)

    6. wingmaster*

      Yes, it’s normal. I’ve flown in the day of sometimes, if the timing works. Like if it starts at 3PM, then I will fly in the morning, land in the afternoon, check in my hotel and head straight to where I need to be.

    7. OtterB*

      Yes. Depends on location and start time, but often it’s the only way to be there for the start of the day if things start early. It also matters how much of a problem it would be to be late. Some times things get off to a slow start and if I miss the first session or two of a long conference it’s not that big a deal. On the other hand, if I’m presenting at a conference in February and changing planes in Chicago, I do not plan to fly in the morning before my afternoon session.

    8. WellRed*

      Totally normal! Of course, it takes the better part of a day for me to fly anywhere from my home base. I can’t even get a flight back from West to East after a certain time in the very early afternoon (unless I want to hang around for a red eye—not thanks). I’d rather chill, have dinner, get some sleep.

    10. Sleve McDichael*

      I’ve always flown in the day before. Flights out are a bit more variable depending on what flights are available after the close of the conference. I’ve always been flown out on the first available flight though, whether that’s the same evening or next day.

  108. Rusty Shackelford*

    Just venting… I’ve gotten pulled into a project that was presented to me as painting teapots, but is turning into building most of the teapots and then painting them, and while I’m good at building teapots… these are not my teapots to build. I specialize in chocolate teapots and these are made out of rice krispie treats. And the person who should be building the teapots is most likely not even going to provide the recipe for the rice krispie treats, but will expect me to research them myself. And I keep wanting to yell “THESE ARE YOUR FREAKING TEAPOTS! TAKE SOME OWNERSHIP!” I’ve done a bit of painting on the already-built pots (built by yet another person, and not the owner of this project) and it turned into “Do whatever you want; you’re the expert. Oh. Well, not like that. I don’t like that.”

    Argh.

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      I’ll add an “ugh” on your behalf – I hate these kinds of tasks. Just tell me what you need and I’ll do it (even if it’s not really my job) but the grey area or changing expectations/having to argue about expectations is really effing annoying.

  109. Katniss Evergreen*

    I think I’m finally starting to get over my imposter syndrome at work!

    Earlier this week, I showed my boss a report I compiled that was an “oh, this would be nice to have” sort of thing, but wasn’t assigned a deadline and sounded like my boss+grandboss thought would take ages to get make when they mentioned it last month. The report will ease data trending for our office on a couple of elements that have been historically financial black holes, and break everything down really nicely (plus good filters/sorting, yay!). My boss opened the file, and smiled saying “ooh I like this” while flipping through the workbook sheets. I may have beamed – finally thought “okay, I do deserve to be here and make my paycheck.” People will make decisions based on the figures I can give them through this report. I’m so happy, and feel really connected to our mission.

    It really is crazy – I’ve been here 4 months and have gotten great feedback the whole time, and my boss is great at redirecting the few times that I’ve pursued something unhelpful (nothing I’ve wasted much time on). Imposter syndrome is real, folks.

  110. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    Anyone with narcolepsy? I’m having a sleep study done because my GP thinks that I might have some form of it because I keep falling asleep at work on 7-8 hours of sleep. Even if I don’t end up with a diagnosis, how do you keep yourself awake?

    1. Sleepy*

      Idiopathic hypersomnia here, so bit different mechanism than narcolepsy but overlap on drugs. I take the drugs. It’s amazing. My life is so so much better than it was before. I didn’t realize how much it impacted me til I was treated. My normal sucked. My new normal is still challenging but so much better. Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        Try sleeping 9-10 hours a night. Plan to be there longer if you get up for anything or it takes you a while to drift off. Break up your workday to fit in a siesta.

        Take a sleep disorder quiz.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      There are meds, if you do get a diagnosis of narcolepsy. It’s also possible that you have a different sleep disorder, such as sleep apnea, that’s keeping you from getting enough rest even if you’re asleep for 8 hours.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Only tangentially related to the original question, but how would one go about getting a sleep study to test for sleep apnea? I tried to get one when my dad was first diagnosed, but I was turned away because it’s “impossible” to have sleep apnea if you’re underweight… But I still can’t remember the last time I woke up feeling rested!

        1. Fikly*

          Try a different doctor, because whoever told you that is 100% wrong.

          Signed, someone who was underweight, had very narrow airways, floppy tissue, and severe sleep apnea.

          Honestly, they can tell if your airways are narrow if you open your mouth and say “Ahh,” so someone is likely not doing their job.

          1. KoiFeeder*

            !!!
            Floppy tissue buddies? (I have Ehler’s-Danlos)

            Also, I am now in a position to try a different doctor, I am… just very nervous. And wanted reassurance that I wasn’t insane to think they were wrong.

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              No, you are not at all insane. It’s very possible to be normal weight or underweight and still have sleep apnea. Do you wake up with a headache and/or sore throat? Have you been told you snore, or kick/twitch in your sleep?

              1. KoiFeeder*

                Yes to both headache and sore throat, I’ve been told I snore “but in a wheezy sort of way,” and I’m doing something messed up in my sleep because I usually pull my hamstrings overnight, sometimes so badly that I dislocate my whole hip joint.

                1. Rusty Shackelford*

                  Yeah, you have symptoms. See a different doctor, and if that one’s also an idiot, keep trying.

            2. Fikly*

              Hey, EDS buddy!

              Yeah, you sooo have sleep apnea. It’s so common with EDS. (Fun fact, your tissue will get more floppy as you age, so your apnea will keep getting worse!)

              It’s going to be hard (I too have decades of doctors invalidating me) but getting my CPAP has changed my life. No regrets, aside from the month in between getting diagnosed and finally getting my insurance to cough up my CPAP, during which I was terrified to sleep because now I knew how low my oxygen was getting and how many times I stopped breathing every night.

              1. KoiFeeder*

                Please don’t tell me it’ll get worse, I’m only 22 and I dislocate my hips while sleeping. A carp once subluxated my ribs.

                1. Rusty Shackelford*

                  It won’t get worse if you get properly treated with CPAP. You will have to have your pressure adjusted with time, but if you truly do have sleep apnea, CPAP is life-changing.

                3. Fikly*

                  What Rusty said.

                  As long as you are using a CPAP, they can just increase the pressure, and it’ll compensate as your tissue get more floppy.

                  I dislocated my shoulder once sneezing. It was a proud moment.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          There are different forms of sleep apnea. Obstructive is the most common, but a few lucky ones of us have something more neurological. For me the sleep test showed I was waking up 70 times a night but only during REM sleep. So I have a split diagnosis mild / severe. The very first night I wore a mask, I was astounded that I didn’t remember my dreams. Untreated apnea is also associated with long-term health issues, so push this with your doctor or yes get a different doctor.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sadly I’ve only known narcoleptics that can only control it with medication.

      I’m glad they sent you for a sleep study. They already ruled out sleep apnea? That can cause you to nod off even after what was supposedly a long nights sleep. You’re not really sleeping because you keep waking up, even if you don’t feel it during the night. But if it’s a full sleep study, they’ll figure that out as well. That would be the best case here, then they could get you a machine/mouth guard/treatment of some kind and it’ll make you fully sleep and not nod off!

      Scheduling times to get up and walk helps me a lot because I find myself getting sleepy just because of eye strain and being behind a desk so much. They also have stimulants you can buy of course but those come with risks I don’t like to take.

      1. Can I get a Wahoo?*

        Not 100% ruled out yet, but I don’t show any of the telltale signs for it so my GP said it’s not likely. I have an appointment with a sleep specialist who’s going to put it all together, so hopefully they will be able to tell me what’s up

    4. halfwolf*

      i have narcolepsy without cataplexy and i was diagnosed almost 10 years ago. i take medication twice a day (provigil, if you’re curious) – once in the morning and once around lunchtime. the meds have been the biggest help for me – i feel like a person when i take them, which i don’t when i forget! a fair warning that they can be kind of expensive and some insurance companies like to make you jump through hoops to get the medication that your doctor prescribed (i have to get a yearly prior authorization and had to fail a 2 week adderall trial). if that becomes a barrier, talk to your doctor about cost saving options.

      if you do end up with a diagnosis, some kind of medication (whether a daytime drug like what i take, or a nighttime drug) will probably be the main treatment, but there are also certain lifestyle changes that your doctor can recommend to try to mitigate the EDS (excessive daytime sleepiness). one thing i’ve definitely noticed is that if i don’t get up and move around once in a while, i’m much more likely to feel really sleepy. if you have a desk-based job, try to get up and walk around for a few minutes (or even use a standing desk if you can) every hour or so. switch tasks also if you feel yourself getting sleepy – boredom makes me more liable to nod off. if you think you can do so without facing negative consequences, it may help to disclose to your manager that you’re being treated for a sleep disorder. unfortunately, a lot of people are still of the mindset that sleepy = lazy/childish/irresponsible, so being able to say “this is a problem being treated by a doctor” can give you the legitimacy that you may need.

      good luck with the sleep study (and presumably the MSLT)! narcolepsy frequently goes undiagnosed for a long time, and it can be easy to feel like your sleep disorder IS actually you being lazy when it’s not. rooting for you!

      ps – if you’re on reddit, the r/narcolepsy subreddit is a great resource to talk to other people with narcolepsy, with and without cataplexy.

  111. Extra Anon*

    Question for people in jobs that involve exposure to secondary trauma: in my experience, some people are excellent at coping/compartmentalizing while being successful at their work. Some people (me) struggle with boundaries, leaving work at work, burn out. I left my direct care work purposefully several years ago and excelled in a related role but without client/patient contact. While I still took on too much and worked myself to exhaustion (and took a six month ‘sabbatical’ after I left), I never felt emotionally overwhelmed. Thinking I was older, wiser, and healthier thanks to a long time chronic illness finally properly diagnosed and treated, I accepted a job with some direct care and lots of opportunity for me to do the kind of projects I love. But I’m already struggling, a couple months in, falling into the same old patterns.

    So my question is: has anyone here who works in child protection, pediatric hospitals, EMS, etc where the stuff you see day to day is, in fact, often very sad, started off with poor coping skills and become a person who could be good at their jobs but not consumed by them? Is it possible to break out of this pattern or do I need to let it go? I WANT to be able to do this. I’m good at it. I believe in it. But … it’s just so devastating. (And yes I’m getting therapy — that’s part of why I thought I could be more successful this time around).

    1. Terra*

      I have found that exercise helps me the most. I deal with my own health conditions that mean I can never lift heavy and currently have to stay off the bike, but just walking, lifting relatively light weights, and getting on the stair stepper three times a week (along with the short walk to and from the gym) have helped me curb some of the anxiety that I have around the job. I used to binge eat and I’m not sure if this is exactly how it works, but I find that exercising seems to be replacing the “high” I got from food or the need to watch hours and hours of Netflix every day.

    2. EJane*

      compartmentalization is a godsend. I don’t currently work in healthcare, but I did work at a children’s hospital for a while, and with the department we were in, I would get requests to transfer kiddos who had horribly tragic things happen to our unit, and we had to refuse them if they didn’t have the right diagnosis (i.e. ‘weight loss’ v ‘unspecified eating disorder’; we could only take the former.) To this day, I remember needing to refuse care to a 3mo newborn, and it still makes me vaguely nauseated to think about. (I’m also working on my MSW.)

      I remember a couple of things. One, the fact that I witness these things does not mean they’re my burden to bear. The best thing I can do for myself and the patients is to take care of myself and make sure that I’m able to give them as much energy as I can while staying healthy. (I tell myself this to give myself permission to do the next few things.)
      If I’m not on the clock, and I find myself thinking about work, I will bounce my thoughts off of it; either immediately revert to reciting a go-to poem, or picture tying that thought up in a bundle, or wrapping it up somehow, putting it in a box, and tucking that box away to be opened later.
      It’s not disingenuous or heartless to tell yourself “This happened, and now I need to move on.” Coach yourself the way you would coach a colleague: “Yes, it’s awful, but you are doing and have done all you can. You’re one of the helpers. Help where you can, and give yourself permission to relax outside of it.” (Requesting not to talk about work also helped, as did deliberately seeking out happy anecdotes at work. Watching a child get their first custom wheelchair is pretty amazing.)

      I also have PTSD as a result of childhood trauma, as do several of my friends, so I know from first-hand experience that bad things pass. A tragedy does not preclude a happy life. There were always been good people, helpful people, and they stand out the most. I remember the good people, the helpers, more than I do the bad things; they help make that pocket of my memory feel less dark.
      (My sister also works in the peds ER, and she recommends the same: compartmentalization, gratitude for what she has, therapy.)

      ((these things are skills; they’ll take time to polish and strengthen. But they can help, especially with a therapist to guide you.))

    3. Peds rn*

      Peds nurse. I see a lot of physically abused infants. It’s awful. Two things that help me: one is reminding myself that I am here to make the situation better. I can give that child snuggles and love them while they are with me. I’m part of a team that will change the child’s future and my observation and charting skills can assist with that. I am proud to be part of a team that advocates for these kids. Two: I need to talk about the things I see with someone. I need to take care of myself, I need to ensure I get time off, exercise, etcetera.

  112. ECHM*

    Hello Hellmouth? I want to hear how your new job is going – hopefully it is a much better environment for you!

  113. T*

    I need advice on how to answer the question “Why do you want to leave your job?”during interviews, as I have never actually had to answer these. I’m an attorney with 5 years of experience, all from one company, which hired me right after a law school internship. I am applying for a role inside of a small federal agency.

    There are several people at the top levels of my department who have been hired since I started, and only me at the bottom. We have one incompetent paralegal who’s only available about 35 hours a week. As a result, I’ve found myself doing a lot of admin work along with work that the paralegal can’t/isn’t doing, and her supervisor/my supervisor have essentially told me to suck it up, and we’re not going to fire her. I don’t see room for actual growth in this position, and I’m not being given very many “stretch” assignments because there are plenty of high-level attorneys available to do them perfectly. My manager is also stretched very thin at all times, but this hasn’t resulted in my being given more work and responsibility, just in her essentially not managing me (and again, giving me rote/admin tasks that don’t require much engagement or interaction with me). If we’re in “Crisis Mode” I’m given assignments WAY above my pay grade and have enjoyed that challenge, but the day-to-day drudgery (unless I’m training interns) is usually something more at the paralegal level.

    I obviously can’t say all that, and was thinking about saying “Since I joined the department, it’s become fully staffed at a very high level, and I’m the most junior person. It makes sense for the organization, but it also means that there opportunities for my professional growth are becoming sporadic.”

    I’m particularly concerned about threading the needle between “I’m doing too much admin work” and “I haven’t been doing so much admin work that I’m not a competent attorney,” and I’d love some suggestions or feedback.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      You could just say there’s not a lot of room for growth. You don’t need to mention the admin work at all.

      1. T*

        Would this be seen as too ambitious (since I’m not due for a promotion and am still “green”) or problematic if there isn’t a lot of room for growth at this agency? I don’t have a good handle on the department’s makeup and may find myself in the same departmental situation (but hopefully with a less toxic workplace).

        1. Lyudie*

          I don’t work at law but in tech, I don’t think people would think this is too ambitious. After 5 years, I think it’s fine to be looking at your career path and if you don’t see the path you want at your current firm, I don’t think anyone would bat an eye at looking elsewhere.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          I don’t know how it works in law, but even if you’re not currently due for a promotion (after five years? really?), knowing that it’s likely to NEVER happen should still be a decent reason for moving on.

          1. T*

            I wasn’t an attorney when I started, I’ve just been with the company for five years. I’ve gone through three title changes in that time, starting with “Temporary Intern.”

            1. T*

              I’m also not really looking for a title change/increase, just more work opportunities that don’t have me stagnating where I am.

              1. Adric*

                Even if you don’t pitch it as “advancement” specifically, you’re at a reasonable point to want to “broaden your experience”.

                Besides, I think most interviewers are just trying to find out if you can say you’re not happy with something without explicitly throwing anyone under the bus.

    2. T*

      One more thing to add: I’ve always wanted to live in the city where the federal agency job is, but I currently live (and work) in the suburbs of that city, and am only able to visit on the weekends. It’s another reason why this job opening is very attractive to me. Would this be something I could/should mention?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        It shouldn’t be *the* reason, but if it comes up organically, it could be helpful to mention. Especially if people are fleeing the city. In fact, since you’re concerned that it looks like you’re leaving your current job too soon, you could say “I wasn’t really even planning to leave my job, but I happened to come across this one, which was very interesting to me because of X and Y, and the fact that it’s located in Emerald City, where I’ve always wanted to live, is a huge bonus.”

    3. OtterB*

      If you can make an argument that you are particularly interested in government service and/or the specific areas covered by the agency, I suggest that. Otherwise I think you’d be okay with “I like continuing to grow my expertise and I’m not seeing as many opportunities for that at Current Job as I would prefer.” But tweaking so it doesn’t sound like you’ve been stagnating there for 5 years.

    4. Policy wonk*

      Turn the question around – I have always been interested in the agency, importance of the mission, so when the job opened I had to apply. Since you took this job right out of law school, you can also say something about wanting a new challenge, learning a different aspect of law.

    5. Well, there's this*

      I don’t see room for actual growth in this position, and I’m not being given very many “stretch” assignments because there are plenty of high-level attorneys available to do them.

      I think you can use the above as the basis for your explanation. No need to mention the admin work, just that you’re ready for new challenges because you want to grow professionally. You don’t need to go into details unless the interviewer asks.

  114. Youth*

    I suggested that my mom send flowers to my sister’s office today because sis is thousands of miles away and we miss her. But Mom said that would draw to much attention to my sister, and she wouldn’t like that.
    Made me wonder though…anyone ever receive (or have a coworker receive) somehing ostentatious, over-the-top, disruptive, or annoying at work for Valentine’s Day?

    2. T*

      I would think it would heavily depend on her office’s layout. My workplace takes up an entire building, with a reception desk on the bottom floor. If we receive deliveries we get a private email about it and then have to go down and pick up whatever it is, and just ride the elevator back to our desks. People have gotten everything from flowers to stuffed animals and fruit baskets where I work. If your sister works in an open floor plan with reception right there, it may draw more attention to whatever she’s getting. But I don’t think that a modest bouquet or gift that she could carry herself would be too attention-catching.

      1. Youth*

        My mom ended up sending rugelach to her apartment earlier this week, which she seemed to like, so it all worked out well.

    3. Arielle*

      My then-boyfriend now-husband once sent me (at my request) an Edible Arrangement. I had always wanted one! But I hadn’t realized how MESSY and STICKY they are, plus all the fruit is out of season in February and doesn’t taste very good, and at the end of the day everything just had to be thrown away. It was a distraction and a waste of money, and I felt bad about subjecting my coworkers to it.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      People get their packages and mail sent here all the time, so it wouldn’t be any different than that I’d say.

      But yeah, you would want to be mindful of their working areas. Will the flowers even fit on her workspace or be in the way, etc.

      We used to get flowers delivered at school all the time as students. Someone from the office just called us down or would deliver it if they had time.

    5. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      Flowers are fine, but we had a client send over a giant cake without warning. It was meant to be a thank you but actually ended up being a huge pain for the receptionists to deal with.

    6. Daisy-dog*

      At an old job, the wife of one of my co-workers went over-the-top for her birthday. She got something every day that week – balloons, flowers, candy, etc. Even an edible arrangement even though CW was actually allergic to half the fruit, so she gave it to us (I liked it!). It was fun in our office culture. Overall, it’s not a super big deal for anyone who receives a normal gift anywhere I’ve worked either. That being said, I’ve never gotten anything and I’m a pretty private person. Can’t say how it would feel if I got a surprise gift, but I think I would like it.

    7. OtterB*

      My women’s barbershop chorus has quartets that do Singing Valentines (as do many barbershop groups). I was the driver for a quartet one year. Usually the person who purchased the valentine had smoothed the path for us – told us where in the building to go, who to check in with, etc. Some people loved it, some were embarrassed, and one said “Again?” (Her significant other had apparently been sending different treats all week.) It’s a little over the top and disruptive, but doesn’t last long. (Two songs, take a digital photo the purchaser gets sent as a memento, hand over a card and some chocolates, and we’re out the door. The disruptive part is that most coworkers in earshot come out to see what’s going on.)

    8. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think tasteful (small, not overly elaborate) flowers are totally fine in most offices, but there are some people who wouldn’t appreciate any extra attention so it’s best to know your audience.

      A few years ago my now-husband dropped by my office to surprise me with flowers for our anniversary. It was very unexpected and sweet. I shared an office with two other young women, one of whom I was close friends with (and who helped my boyfriend plan the surprise). The other was extremely insecure and seemed to feel threatened by me. Her birthday or something was the next week and I remember all she kept talking about was how her boyfriend was going to give her flowers too, and she made the BIGGEST deal out of the flowers he had delivered – she kept them on her desk for days and kept pointing them out to anyone who walked by. Super cringy.

    9. Llellayena*

      Not me and not Valentines, but my mom still remembers the year my dad had an arrangement of roses in a vase delivered to her school (she was a teacher) on the anniversary of day they met. She had to wait for a break to come down to the office to pick them up, so the whole school was talking about it by then!

    10. Zephy*

      My coworker’s husband surprised her today with a dozen red roses, a big heart-shaped balloon, a bunch of candy, and a fast-food lunch. I thought it was cute, and she was happy about it.

      My personal bar for “too much” on Valentine’s Day was in college, when the men’s a capella group offered themselves for hire to serenade your SO.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My personal bar for too much is anything that spreads its perfume throughout the office. My old boss was sent stargazer lilies for Every. Stinking. Occasion. I took that laptop to so many empty areas it was noticed and commented on, and I don’t think it was coincidental that my manager eventually got an office with a door.

  115. Unsolicited*

    I’m currently doing a lot of volunteer work as a job search and wonder how to include it on my resume.

    Currently, I have a volunteer section that notes the organization and the dates of my involvement. However, I don’t have any mentions of what I’m doing and how it relates to the positions to which I’m applying. Would it be too verbose to include a bullet or a parenthetic phrase about my activities. For example, I am doing national media pitching and PR strategizing for a progressive eco-fashion org.

    Additionally, I am on two Public Relations Society of America committees, including one for the regionally known PRism Awards. Should I note this in my professional association section under my PRSA involvement?

    Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

    1. Fikly*

      I did exactly this for volunteer work that was related to my career/job interests. I formatted it just like a paid job.

      I would likely leave off any volunteer work that is unrelated, to avoid confusion, save space, and because it’s not very relevant.

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      I agree. I’m ‘kinda’ doing the same thing. I’m on sabbatical from my non-profit career and I’m doing pro bono work with non-profits. I have my volunteer projects in the place of a job because I track metrics and value saved to the non-profit. As I dedicate about 20-hours a week to the various projects, that’s a part-time job and deserves to be in the ‘paid job’ space of my resume.

      I would definitely include your committee work as it’s strongly related to your career and yes, the professional association would work best.

  116. Help*

    I have a unique situation. I’m volunteering with an organization that helps LGBTQA youth.

    The situation that I’m currently experiencing is one that I haven’t encountered, so I’d appreciate any advice.

    When I started I was introduced to an individual “Bob” who is gender fluid (?). When I met Bob, this individual informed me that their pronouns used were (he/him/himself). Because Bob is an employee and I am only volunteering part time, Bob and I didn’t have much contact.

    When I saw Bob last week (after not seeing Bob for 2 weeks), I used the pronouns (he/him/himself) as previously told to use at our first meeting. The next thing I know Bob got upset that I missed gendered them and that they are using (she/her/herself) pronouns.

    I apologised profusely, thinking I made an error or remembered incorrectly. I tried to rack my brain on how I could have misunderstood, when another employee approached me and told me not to worry about it, because Bob changes their pronouns according to Bob’s moods.

    They told me that Bob has a habit of changing their pronouns on a daily/weekly/monthly basis according to how Bob is feeling.

    I asked than how do I know what pronouns to use?

    The employee informed me to check Bob’s social media to know if Bob is feeling like a /girl/boy/ non-binary that day and to act accordingly and use whichever pronouns Bob is using.

    I want to be sensitive and I would never want to misgender someone, but this situation has me stumped. I’ve asked others in the LGBTQA community, but it ranges to talking with Bob to see how they want me to handle it, to just checking Bob’s social media the days I have contact with Bob, to removing all gender pronouns when talking or interacting with Bob.

    How do I deal with this without offending Bob?

    1. catsforever*

      I’m trans, and my opinion on best practice is, of course, to ask Bob about a preferred method of handling week-to-week interactions. Approach Bob and say, “I’m very sorry for misgendering you the other day – I should have checked in with you. I know your pronouns change from time to time. Is it alright if I check with you before our conversations which pronoun set you prefer, or is there another method you’d like me to use?”

      Sometimes the best thing is to just not use pronouns! It takes practice, but it is important. Just use Bob’s name, and be thoughtful about your words.

      Thank you for doing this work!

      1. Help*

        Thank you so much, I really like your suggested script. I always try to keep an open mind and seek help if I encounter a situation that I haven’t dealt with before, so that I can handle it from a place of respect and caring.

        1. Fikly*

          I might add “I didn’t know your pronouns changed before, but I do now and of course I want to respect that.” and then continue with asking about checking.

    2. CatCat*

      If Bob changes personal pronouns often, I would just ask Bob each time I am working with them what pronouns they would prefer. “Hi Bob, good to be working with you today. Which pronouns do you prefer?”

      1. CatCat*

        Maybe I am wrong, but expecting you to check social media seems like a bit much and like it won’t resolve the issue anyway if Bob hasn’t updated.

        1. Me*

          Bob sounds unreasonable. We shouldn’t expect our coworkers to have to check out social media every morning to find out about what we want to be called that day.

    3. Can I get a Wahoo?*

      Maybe give Bob a set of the pronoun pins so Bob can rotate them out as needed? /s

      How does Bob feel about they/them? I try and use they/them as a catch all for all people (including cis) and so far haven’t run into anyone offended. Otherwise, a cheerful check in when you interact with Bob might help?

      1. No Tribble At All*

        I mean, I know you say that jokingly, but at a Starbucks near here there’s an employee who has 2 baseball caps that are used on different days. Whatever works, works.

        1. WellRed*

          I didn’t read that as jokingly at all. Seems a better bet than handing everyone the task of checking Bob’s social media daily and hoping Bob updated.

      2. ...*

        I mean I don’t think that even needs to be sarcastic. How are you suppose to know? Changing them daily and posting it on social is QUITE precious.

    4. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      How does Bob feel about they/them? I have a couple friends who are primarily she/her but are okay with they/them. I also know someone who is okay with either he or she but not they/them. Or maybe Bob could wear a pronoun sticker or patch? A pet store near my house has all the employees wearing pronoun stickers so that the one trans employee doesn’t feel weird about being the only one.

    5. Laura H.*

      Not LGBTQA, but would it be super awkward to use the name until the person clues you in on what the pronouns are during that period? (I’m sorry this reads awkward but “pronouns of the day” read as insensitive and while I’m fortunate enough to be firmly certain of my identity and not have the experience of needing to adjust, I don’t want to sound insensitive.)

      1. Help*

        The organization that I volunteer for services LGBTQA youth who have been kicked out of their homes for being LGBTQA and I don’t want the youth thinking that I’m not supportive.

        Bob is in charge of the one of the programs that works closely with the youth, so I don’t want to give the appearance of not respecting Bob.

        after everyone’s suggestions I will make an appointment to speak with Bob about this situation and see how they want me to handle this. One friend suggested asking if Bob would consider using this situation as a teaching moment.

    6. DarthVelma*

      Bob can use whatever pronouns Bob wants to – doesn’t change the fact that Bob is an asshole. Expecting the world to check your social media every day (potentially even multiple times a day) and getting bent out of shape at people who didn’t – sorry, Bob is a self-centered asshole.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Yep.

        Making it everyone else’s problem to monitor your feelings-announcements from day to day to avoid upsetting you?

        That’s not about gender. That’s narcisstic.

      3. Nom de Plume*

        Seriously. I have a twitter mutual who is gender fluid and they totally have days where they feel more one way than the other, but they are cool with any pronoun, so the whole thing about getting mad if you use the wrong pronoun depending on their inner state is really self-centered.

    7. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      Yuck. That’s a tough situation that Bob’s putting you in — particularly because a lot of the reasonable solutions in this case are things that tend to come across as rather… hm. Not hostile, exactly, but not entirely supportive either, to trans folks who aren’t being absurdly high-maintenance about pronoun use. Stuff like refusing to use any pronouns for someone, or asking every time you see them, things like that — in a normal situation, would be pretty uncomfortable.

      But that’s the position Bob’s putting you in, and checking social media daily to see what pronouns you ought to be using is a pretty unreasonable burden.

      One thing I would caution here — you got this secondhand. Talk to Bob first before you write the mental “asshole” label in sharpie on your mind. It may be that the coworker was not entirely accurate, and that there’s something more reasonable going on. catsforever’s suggestion about wording to approach Bob is imo really good — neutral, polite, emphasizing that you want to do the right thing.

      1. Super Awk*

        Yes, definitely talk to Bob first. I’m amazed by how often people project on to others. I am LGBTQ+ but all my experience was with cis-gendered people. I volunteered at an LGBTQ+ organisation and in conversation with someone I misgendered another person who wasn’t in earshot. The cis person I was talking to got wide-eyed and quite dramatic: ‘Oh, don’t do that in front of them. They get really upset if you don’t use they/them.’ Being inexperienced, I started to get all freaked out that I was going to muck up again and people would hate me. Well, a little later, I DID muck up. I misgendered the same person who this time was in ear shot, Guess what? I sincerely apologised and it was fine. I am sure it may very well have rankled and I wasn’t proud of myself For my mistake. But this person and I continued to have a great relationship for years while I volunteered at that organisation. The original cis person in this case was definitely putting too much of her own anxiety and discomfort on the situation, as I did after talking to her. This may not be the case here but it’s definitely worth starting with Bob to figure out the actual lay of the land.

    8. Stormy Weather*

      Maybe you could ask Bob to consider wearing a pronoun pin. I wouldn’t demand it or buy the pin for Bob, but maybe you could say something like, “Bob, I feel terrible that I misgendered you the other day and I don’t want to do it again. I know some people wear pronoun pins, have you considered that? It might save you some unnecessary aggravation.”

      A friend of mine in the Bay Area works for a school and they’re encouraging pronoun pins. I’m betting that will be normalized in the next few year.

      You should not have to to check Bob’s social media every day. You have a work relationship, not a social one.

  117. Adric*

    What does a “thumbs up” on ZipRecruiter mean?

    I’ve been looking for a job for a while now, and have put in several applications through ZipRecruiter. Usually, I’ll get a “your application was received”, “your application was viewed” and sometimes again, and then direct contact for a phone screen or interview.

    However, this week I put in an application and it got received and viewed, but then a couple days later got a “thumbs up”, which is confusing. If they like me and want to talk more, e-mail, call, there are options. If they don’t want to talk, then the “thumbs up” doesn’t really mean anything.

    Any ideas about what’s going on? Have they tried getting in touch and couldn’t so they’re desperately trying to get my attention any way they can?

    1. Daisy-dog*

      Just a guess, but it’s possible that the HR rep/recruiter/hiring manager is not super knowledgeable about ZipRecruiter. So they may not have realized that the “thumbs up” gave you a notification. They might have used it to further narrow down the pool of candidates or notify an admin that they should call you for an interview. It’s also possible that they do know that the “thumbs up” gave you a notification, but didn’t realize that you would be confused. It still likely means you’re on a short-list of some sort. Basically, it’s impossible to say what it means right now, but you’ll probably hear back at some point.

      1. Adric*

        OK, so it’s a regular part of ZipRecruiter that nobody else has bothered with. Which actually makes sense in context.

        Thanks,
        I will relax and go back to being patient.

  118. Lyudie*

    Sort of a vent I guess…I basically have no ambition, I do not want to be a lead/leader of anything, I want to do good work and take direction, not give it. I feel like the corporate world (or maybe it’s my company, though I’ve been in two organizations that are pretty different but this is the same) looks down on or at least side-eyes anyone who says they do not want to take on leadership roles or higher level responsibilities. I just want to learn how to do my job better and expand those skills, not become a team lead. I changed careers two years ago and in many ways still feel new. Sigh. I did get to express some of this to my manager a few weeks ago at my performance evaluation and I think she got it, but she still wants me to lead projects. Just a little frustrated and feeling like Bartleby, I guess.

    1. Veronica Mars*

      My engineering company has specifically created two advancement paths to tackle this. One is “people leadership” and one is “technical leadership”. I don’t think you’ll ever get away from people wanting you to take on more responsibility. But people on the technical leadership path take on that responsibility by, say, checking other peoples’ work or sitting on steering/review committees. The people leadership track is for project and people management.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      I feel you on this. I really, really do not enjoy managing people. I’m not terrible at it, but it saps my energy enormously, and I really would rather put that energy towards my actual work rather than supervisory things. It’s really difficult because the way that workplace culture in most places is, promotions after a certain point always come with supervisory responsibilities. Or you’re told you have to work on your leadership skills (a different set of skills from management skills, imo) just as you’re doing. It’s so frustrating, and I wish I had good advice for you. All I’ve got is commiseration.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        Yes, this is exactly how I feel! I was a people manager for a year, and got rave reviews (probably because I got so emotionally invested in everyone else’s happiness??) but it was so EXHAUSTING.

        Technical challenge? Super pumped to fix it. People challenge? Dread. Pure, pure dread.

    3. Terra*

      I’m in the same boat. My previous supervisor was a big “pusher” and was always trying to get me to think ahead to a promotion, and trying to get me to network. I hate networking and I’m not all that good at it.

      I feel like in D.C., people love to talk about work-life balance without actually achieving it, because they see everything as temporary. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “Next week will be better,” as we’re all leaving the office at 8 pm. Or they think that in one more promotion all their problems will magically go away, but they can’t stop grinding because they dropped $2 million on a house that only someone two promotions up can afford.

      I say all that to say that I definitely feel the side-eye. I *like* my one-bedroom, rented apartment, I *like* that I don’t work 80 hours a week, and I have to put out at most 3 or 4 late night fires a year. I don’t need to schmooze, network, and try to get “Director” or “VP” in front of my title.

    4. Bunny Girl*

      Not wanting a leadership role doesn’t mean that you don’t have any ambition. You said you want to do well and expand your skills. That sounds ambitious to me. I’m just like you – I don’t want a leadership position because I love and value my life outside of work. I love my family and my hobbies, and while I am going to school for a job that I hope I’ll be passionate about, at the end of the day I only have some many years on this earth and I don’t want to work 50, 60, 70 hours a week. I want to spend my time with people I love, doing things I like to do. Leadership roles add more stress, more hours, more phone calls/emails and I just don’t want that. I don’t think that says anything about a person’s character or their work ethic.

      1. Terra*

        Tons of people and job cultures conflate “desire for leadership roles” and “working longer hours” with “work ethic.” It sucks, but it definitely happens. A lot of these people are very old school and you have to finesse your way through an artful explanation if you are genuinely happy where you are and don’t want to advance. In some places (law firms) you flat-out aren’t allowed to stagnate as an associate. You make partner, go in house, or get pushed out.

    5. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      How do you feel about being a project manager rather than a personnel manager, or being a designated job trainer? Those are both valuable roles for people who aren’t interested in leadership.

      1. Lyudie*

        Project management is definitely not my forte and is a big part of what I want to get away from lol. Fortunately we have dedicated project managers for overall/big picture things, but all projects will have a lead who assigns work, tracks stuff, and other PM-type things on a day-to-day basis.

    6. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      The phrase that comes to my mind when you describe what you want is “Subject Matter Expert”. This isn’t necessarily a job title, but might be part of an informal job description, i.e., “Oh, if you have questions about Skill X Lyudie’s our subject matter expert.” Basically, the person in the office/department who knows the most about a particular project or process. Sometimes overlaps with team lead roles, sometimes not. (For a while last fall, I was the technical lead on one project, and SME on another project that someone else was lead on.)

    7. Fikly*

      There is a misconception out there that ambition means wanting to be a manager.

      Wanting to do your job better and expanding those skills is ambitious! And a worthy thing! If a company was all management, how would that work?

      1. Lyudie*

        Right?? I was at one place where everyone wanted to move into project management, so suddenly we had all these people trying to get out of writing work and doing PM instead. And we’d have a project manager for a small one-person project. It was madness.

    8. Qwerty*

      This is a common view! I’ve worked with some great people with no desire to be leaders, which a team really needs so there aren’t too many people trying to take control.

      My suggestion is to come up with a plan on what skills you want to improve and how you can work on them. Right now it looks (to your manager) like you don’t have a path forward, so she is sticking into the default career-climbing path. It’s fine not to want to lead people, but you’ll have to show how you can continue grow while staying within your role, otherwise it can look to you manager like your plan is to stagnate. This will help you manage how she sees you and your professional development.

  119. Cats4Gold*

    Hey, folks! The recent post about helping trans employees made me think that this is a good place to ask this question! I’m searching for a new job- nothing wrong with my current boss (he’s a rockstar), but my job keeps me waaaay less “hair on fire” busy than I like to be, despite repeated requests that I be given more to do, attempts to make work for myself, etc! I transitioned a few years ago, and I’m not “out” to all of my old references (partially because I’m in a slightly different field now- I used to handle llama research, now I help with llama grant oversight- and partially because it seems a bit weird to contact an old employer and be like “Hey, I know you haven’t heard from me in awhile, but guess what, I’m trans!”) Do any trans folks have any advice on how to handle coming out to your references?

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I went through this with LinkedIn recommendations, and what I did was write to each person saying “Hi! Thank you so much for leaving me that recommendation on LinkedIn a while back. I’m using they/them pronouns now. Would you mind rewriting it to reflect that?” It was no big deal. Treat it like you changed your name for some other reason and you’re just providing them with factual information. “Hi, it’s Cats4Gold—you knew me as Dogs4Silver. I’m really happy to share my new name and pronouns with you. I’m job-shopping right now, so if you get a reference request for Cats4Gold, that’s me! I just didn’t want that to be confusing. I hope all’s well with you and everyone at the Llama Research Institute.”

      I think you might also want to give your interviewers a heads-up: “I went by Dogs4Silver when I worked at the LRI. I’ve told my manager there about my name and pronoun change, but they haven’t seen me in a while and may slip up and refer to me by the old name.” And if you’re stealth, you might want to consider dropping those references, as professionally painful as that can be.

      1. Cats4Gold*

        That sounds like great advice. Fortunately, I’m not stealth, but I’m not sure how all of my references will respond- I may reach out to them and feel them out a bit first. I do know that at least one is supportive, though, so at least there’s that! (Also, adopting Dogs4Silver as my other online alias, brb ;))

    2. Tinker*

      I haven’t done this exact thing yet, but I’ve plotted out how I would handle it:

      — For listing someone as a reference, you want to hit them up for a chat anyway for completely non-trans-related reasons. “Hi, what are you up to nowadays, I’m shaving yaks, actually though I’m looking for a change and I wondered if I could use you as a reference.” The coming out would go in among the professional updates with about the same tone — “and I’m using this name and those pronouns now”.

      — For people/organizations that the hiring manager may contact independently, such as employment verification and such, probably the best solution if possible is to raise that with the hiring manager at the reference-checking stage, in tones of “boring technicality” — listing previous legal names in forms in the same way other people who have changed their names would, or saying things like “my records from MegaCorp will be in my previous legal name which is thus-and-such”. Unfortunately that only works if you’re willing to make that disclosure to your new company. However, so far I’ve found that when I need to make disclosures like that — though it’s only been in my personal life so far, such as “I should be in your customer database, yes, but under this name” — people are pretty uniformly unfazed by it, and my previous legal name is not subtle.

      1. Cats4Gold*

        The matter-of-fact approach that you and DOAE suggested sounds like the way to go. And I agree, making it sound like a boring technicality is smart. Because, honestly, it is! (My previous legal name is obviously feminine, and I chose the masculine version of that name post-transition, so it’s pretty apparent that I transitioned.)

  120. 7310*

    What kind of f#$%^&y is this?
    Dept manager hands my coworker a stack of papers. “I need holes punched in these. Next week will be fine.” Walks away.
    NOT CW’s JOB. But coworker is in HR and an admin, so…
    I hope CW recovers from her shock and tells Mgr to do it himself.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not quite understanding the outrage.

      But if it’s a standard three hole punch that is moveable, I’d just go plop it down on their desk with the stack of papers and say “Oh here’s that three hole punch you were asking for!”

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        Passive-aggressive me really likes this.

        Asshole-aggressive me would come back next week and say “Oh, I finally finished that stack of papers you wanted me to shred!”

      2. 7310*

        He is not her boss and he did not ask…She was too shocked to tell him where the brand new electric 3-hole punch was…

        1. Colette*

          If she is not in his reporting line (i.e. she reports into someone else who reports into someone else and none of those people report to him), she should ask her manager how to handle it (especially if this isn’t a one-off request). But … how much work is this? Is it a half day or 2 minutes?

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’ve never only answered to just my boss, so maybe that’s part of it…

          But in many places admins float and senior staff still ask them to do that kind of work.

          I agree though, she should ask her boss about it and see where they point her to. Either they say “Eh that jackhole, drop it back on his desk, he doesn’t even go here.” or they say “Yeah, we use other department’s admins sometimes, so go ahead and get it done for him.”

    2. Colette*

      It generally makes more sense to have an admin punch holes in papers than to have a department manager do it? Is there someone else who would typically do that kind of stuff?

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Er, it sounds like that’s kind of admin work. Maybe manager could’ve been a little more polite about it, but …

    4. Blue Eagle*

      How big a stack of papers? Does your company have an account with Office Depot/Staples etc? If so, ask the manager for an accounting code to charge for the work, take it there and have them do it.

  121. Veronica Mars*

    Just wanted to rant that its been 2 weeks since the Super Bowl, and my all-male (minus me) team is still regularly making the joke “Get off the stage Shakira” (Often followed by “its time for the men to do the real work”) as a way to call people out for getting off topic in meetings.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      UUUUGGGGH.

      I thought they did the hand-off / partnership beautifully (and I respect the dancing!), this is… people trying to imprint competitive behavior on a cooperative episode to create drama (to put it nicely) and they need to get over it.

      Can you go to one or two of them and say, “that’s getting old, can we switch to ‘refocus’?”

      1. Veronica Mars*

        They weren’t complaining about Sharkira/J-Lo handoff. They were complaining that these women came in and intruded on the perfectly good man time that is football. Most of their jokes also include comments about “back to the men’s work” etc.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          oh! Sorry, been hearing a lot about just the show, so I thought it was an extension of that. So this is just sexism not sexism + racism… (blech)

          Still might be worth it to quietly mention to one or two of them that the ‘joke’ is old and stale and maybe they could move on.

        2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Does the term “men’s work” even belong in the 21st century First World?

          Yes, men are more likely than women to make some work choices, and women are more likely than men to make other work choices.

          But labeling work itself by gender…isn’t that an idea whose time has come — and long gone?

        3. Close Bracket*

          “back to the men’s work”

          Try a puzzled, “What do you mean?” said with a slight smile.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      This is a huge rant for me because I agree that Shakira should get off the stage. JLo too. She said her performance was supposed to “empower women” but in my opinion showing the audience a bunch of crotch shots does nothing to empower women. And I kind of agree with the old codger who wants to sue the NFL for allowing this soft pornography to be part of the halftime show. Not to mention all of the jokes that the men were making about jacking off during the show. Serves us women right if we stand by Shakira and JLo for this kind of show. OK, I’ll get off my soapbox now.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        It depends on how you define empowerment. Does it make men respect women more as equals? Doubtful. Does it set a good example to young girls on how to act in public? Nope. But honestly, I found the show to be super motivating in a “just because you get older doesn’t mean you have to lose your sex appeal” kind of way. Being in that kind of shape is a true physical feat. I loved seeing the way these women owned their sexuality and had such confidence.

        But is women’s sexual empowerment an appropriate theme/lesson topic for a family television event? Also no.

        That said, I don’t think that, because men reacted inappropriately to their show, we can accuse them of ‘hurting the cause’. Men have always thought exactly what they think about scantily clad women, and this just put their private thoughts out in the open. Shakira and JLo didn’t cause the disrespectful comments any more than a girl wearing a short skirt invites sexual harassment.

        1. WellRed*

          I liked the halftime show and they looked like they had a ball. I did cringe once or twice, but only because I knew people would be screaming “But the children!” (And yeah, not sure when women singers had to start performing in leotards and not crazy about that trend in general.)
          But, it sounds like your male coworkers would say “Shakira, get off the stage” even if she’d been dressed like June Cleaver/a nun/Spongebob because they are women in the football stadium and that’s what’s wrong here.

          1. Veronica Mars*

            Hahaha yes. I was more upset I’d have to listen to people pearl clutching and moaning for days, than I was at having my young niece see it and try to dance along.

      2. WellRed*

        “Not to mention all of the jokes that the men were making about jacking off during the show. Serves us women right if we stand by Shakira and JLo for this kind of show.”

        Oooohhhh, noooooo. nonononononono. Too many shades of “she was asking for it,” which I am sure you didn’t mean.

      3. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        Please. If you’re not upset about the half naked cheerleaders, don’t claim the half time show was soft porn. It wasn’t. They wore more than the cheerleaders.

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Preach it, sister!

          I suspect part of the outrage (from both men and women, albeit not always for the same reasons) was that JLo and Shakira also earned much more than the cheerleaders.

    3. Flames on the side of my face.*

      Can you retort with something like, “Only after Adam Levine puts his GD shirt back on and shuts the h— up”? [referencing last year’s Super Bowl show] Followed by, “It’s time for the men to keep it to themselves for a while.”

      This is all so disturbing. Did men pull this crap after Katy Perry’s or Beyonce’s halftime shows in recent years? Is it just the slut-shaming? Is it just their age? I mean, I’ve heard them getting slammed for everything from, “It’s too risque, clutching my pearls,” to “Heh, made me horny,” to “Who wants to see an old lady up there?” There are just so many different brands of sexism converging, it’s making my head spin. It’s the halftime show. Go get another beer and throw darts until its over. It’s NOT THAT DIFFICULT, you tiny little baby-feelinged morons.

      I’m sorry, I lost my cool. I’m just so irritated on your behalf, Veronica Mars.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        Haha no no I appreciate the rant. I find the whole situation so disturbing that I can’t even put into words how bad it is. And every single meeting where it comes up it just devolves into me spinning up into a silent rant in my head instead of paying attention…

        I think it’s a mix of things. They’re boomers and religious Pearl clutchers. I wasn’t in this group for the last women performers. I stayed out of their moaning about propriety for days after the event. But I just can’t even with them making comments about “men’s work” when there is literally a woman on their team who does twice the work they do.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Maybe, when they say it, pipe up with, ‘Ok, sure, I’ll get right on it.’ with a big smile. Add in a subtle, extra feminine but slightly maternal statement in body language (like wide eyes and a head tilt, or some variety of arm crossing) to make them uncomfortable without them being able to point to anything obvious.

          Steal the punchline and they will stop pretty quick,

  122. Partly Cloudy*

    How far in advance of moving should I ask my company about working remotely?

    I’m planning on moving more than halfway across the country (US) this summer and I’d like to keep my current job and work remotely. I’m pretty sure this is doable since others in my company do it, although in different departments than me (but some in similar roles/same hierarchy level).

    But there’s a chance they’ll say no, so I don’t want to find myself phased out before I’m ready or have another job lined up. On the other hand, I want to be as courteous to my current employer as possible and if they say yes, I want to give us all enough lead time to work out the logistics.

    So how soon should I bring this up? Also, I’d welcome any scripts or opening lines to start the conversation.

    Thanks!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Do you get along with any of the folks who do this well enough that you could reach out to them and ask how they went about arranging it?

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          email or messaging system? I suppose it’s possible someone else could find out that way, but unless you have really bored or really nosy IT folks …

  123. Everdene*

    I’m just looking for a sense check here… I recently heard about someone who was marked down in their annual review (thereby will get a smaller raise and smaller bonus) because of something they said in an internal interview*. I strongly feel that is not ok and that the interview/application if not successful should bot be held against someone. This person’s manager obviously feels differently. Who is right?

    *Think ‘Tell me about a time when you had a conflict with a colleague’, person tells about successfully managing conflict with coworker, come annual review manager says ‘you had a conflict with coworker as per your interview’ and doesn’t mention the resolution or that it hasn’t impact relationship (and infact the manager was unaware of the conflict).

      1. Autumnheart*

        They should especially not be punished for RESOLVING a conflict with a coworker in such a way that it didn’t impede business at all, nor any working relationships.

    2. Fikly*

      Interviewing for a different position in the same company is not anyone’s job duty, as far as I’m aware, so how is it relevant to a performance review?

      1. WellRed*

        It’s not the interview that’s relevant to the performance review, it’s that she had an issue with a coworker (which she then discussed in interview). Total shit move on the company’s part.

        1. Fikly*

          Right, by why is any information discussed in the interview even coming back to someone giving them a performance review? Since it was an interview, not a promotion, presumably it was outside of their chain of command, so to speak.

    3. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that managers conducting internal interviews are told to ask about a time there was a conflict with a colleague, just so they will have a reason to deny or minimize a raise or bonus in the future. The employees that are interviewed internally are being set up.

  124. restrictionisn'thealthy*

    Cw: eating disorders, weight talk

    I have a long history of eating disorders that I wasn’t able to treat until I left a toxic home environment and realized that weight wasn’t the total value of a human being, that eating food is always better for you than not eating food, and that food shouldn’t come with shame. To be healthy and stay on the path of recovery requires a lot of mental energy on my end – it’s really, really easy to slip into patterns of behavior that have been hardwired into you.

    My current office is really nice. I enjoy the work, I get positive feedback, and I get along with basically everyone. My problem is I have a recent coworker who, while nice, makes food really difficult for me in the office. Their behavior walks a line that I’m not sure how to talk about. When they eat lunch, more often than not they will casually say how many calories are in it. They’ll talk about their food decisions (which fast food place nearby they might decide to go to) with enormous levels of judgment and shame (“I went to [x] because I’m gross,” for example).

    When I try to use my usual methods of pushback (“You’re not gross – food is food! Was it tasty? Did you have a good time?” or “Yep, all those calories are important to give your body the energy it needs!”), they respond well, saying stuff like “Oh yes of course,” or “Thanks, I appreciate that.” But in the several months they’ve been here, it doesn’t change, and it’s exhausting.

    We have a pretty tight-knit office culture. We are all really open with each other, and those of us on the same peer level meet semi regularly for ‘happy hours’ sometimes hosted at our own homes nearby. We talk pretty candidly about ourselves.

    I know that this person struggles with shame about their weight because they’ve said that explicitly. My impulse is, at a non-office time (maybe at one of the happy hours, or maybe just leaving the office someday) to be very open with them and say, “Hey, look, I’ve struggled with an eating disorder in the past and the way you talk about this is really stressful for me.” But I also feel bad about this impulse, because I don’t want to block them from discussing something important to them, or make them feel more shame. I also hesitate to lean even more into the open office culture – my office already knows a lot about my personal history, do I really need to add telling them about my eating disorder?

    Would love any and all input.

    1. Veronica Mars*

      It sounds to me like you’re phrasing your pushback as trying to help THEM rather than something you need from them to help YOURSELF.

      No one really wants life/body positivity/food positivity advice from coworkers, so I’m not surprised they haven’t changed.

      You could definitely make it A Thing at the next happy hour. But it might be easier to address it in the moment, casually like you’re asking for a favor, “Could you please not talk about food that way around me? I find it upsetting.”

      1. restrictionisn'thealthy*

        I appreciate this! I should probably talk to my therapist about it, also. It’s true that even though I’m conceptually aware that this is a Problem for Me, I haven’t been able to think about how to handle it without also handling it as a Problem for Them.

        Unfortunately I’m not super sure how to let go of the feeling that unless I go deep into detail of Why I Am the Way I Am, I could end up hurting them. I definitely don’t want to talk about it with them in front of others, which is pretty much impossible with our office plan (no walls, no doors).

        1. Veronica Mars*

          The therapist is a great idea! Trust me, I totally get the compulsion to want to help people when you recognize the same unhealthy behaviors in them. But it is simply not your place, and you are simply not qualified to help them. So relieve yourself of this burden of solving the entire world’s relationship with food.

          “I’m not super sure how to let go of the feeling that unless I go deep into detail of Why I Am the Way I Am, I could end up hurting them.”
          I think you’re making false equivalence between how incredibly emotional it is for you, and how emotional it will be for them. But really, chances are, for them it falls in the same category as “could you please chew with your mouth closed” or “can we not listen to music out loud anymore?” Maybe a momentary embarrassment, but nothing they’ll be thinking about 4 hours later. In fact, chances are, you’ll need to remind them more than once.

          IF they ever initiated (that part is key) a conversation with you about wanting help with their negative food thoughts, the right thing to do would be to empathize and then suggest they see a professional. You’re simply too close to this issue, its still too fresh and emotional for you, to remain the neutral rock that they would need at that time.
          But until such a time where they specifically ask you for help, it’s really and truly none of your business. People deserve an environment free of advice about their particular health battles as much as you deserve an environment free of triggering self-deprecating conversation. (Maybe it would help to think back to the time before you were ready to tackle your own battle – if someone had admonished you for voicing your private agony over how “bad” you were being, would that actually have helped you see things different? Or just made you feel even worse?)

          1. restrictionisn'thealthy*

            Thinking about it as “people deserve an environment free of advice about their particular health battles” is a really helpful phrasing, thank you very much!

        2. Veronica Mars*

          It depends on how you define empowerment. Does it make men respect women more as equals? Doubtful. Does it set a good example to young girls on how to act in public? Nope. But honestly, I found the show to be super motivating in a “just because you get older doesn’t mean you have to lose your sex appeal” kind of way. Being in that kind of shape is a true physical feat. I loved seeing the way these women owned their sexuality and had such confidence.

          But is women’s sexual empowerment an appropriate theme/lesson topic for a family television event? Also no.

          That said, I don’t think that, because men reacted inappropriately to their show, we can accuse them of ‘hurting the cause’. Men have always thought exactly what they think about scantily clad women, and this just put their private thoughts out in the open. Shakira and JLo didn’t cause the disrespectful comments any more than a girl wearing a short skirt invites sexual harassment.

    2. !*

      Yeah, this is why I stopped having lunch with my coworkers, it’s a non-stop food-shame-fest and it just bums me way out. It’s bad enough there are cubicle conversations about diet and food, but at least I’m not just sitting there while people are talking around me. Even when we had some vendors in for a meeting who ate lunch with us the conversation ended up being around food and diet…and it was the same person who started it. It does not help that she’s a “nutrition coach” and has pushed her staff to buy products she’s selling (and gets a commission). Whenever she sends out any emails to my department regarding fitness or weight-loss challenges my knee-jerk reaction is to just hit DELETE.

    3. Jedi Squirrel*

      “A lot of us struggle with food issues. Don’t worry about it! Just focus on what you’re enjoying in the moment.”

      It’s hard, I know, but acknowledging that they are not alone in this, and giving them permission to just eat without worrying about what others may (or may not) think about their food choices is how I would go.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you are comfortable opening up about your struggles, then by all means you should do so. Your wording doesn’t sound off putting to me.

      What they’re doing is actively harmful to those around them, despite the fact their self deprecation and shame is part of their own possible disordered eating issues. It’s not all about one person getting the floor first and then getting to rule the tone like that.

      If you’re kind about it and approach it with care like you’re clearly planning to, it’ll help everyone in the end.

      Tell them that you understand their struggle and you care about them but the way they speak about food is triggering to your own issues. A reasonable person will not want to hurt you like that. They simply aren’t thinking about others at that time, they’re thinking about themselves and they’re just on a roll. You’ve played back with it because you give them their validation that they’re seeking when they are so vocal about it.

      I cringe every time someone starts talking about “oh I’m bad, I’m gonna go to McDonalds.” and I always respond with “No food is shameful, that’s the whole point of the rule of moderation. Please don’t disparage yourself, it effects us all when you do that.”

      I had to work on being able to physically eat in front of others and it took me over 30 years to do so. So I’m probably really fast to swat this kind of behavior down in that. “We’re in this together but you cannot speak that way around me or it will be damaging.”

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Glad you have a therapist, and yes you need to talk to them about this. Mostly because you’ve tangled something really easy and simple up into this Whole Big Thing That Is Impossible. And it’s really not, and you seem to need help to untangle it. “Hey, could you please not talk about food around me, thanks.” That’s all.

      Good luck!

  125. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

    I visited another office site for an all-day meeting earlier this week. They have radios loudly playing the local “inoffensive workplace pop music” station on specially-installed shelves in both bathrooms I went into.

    I both want to know the history of that and …don’t want to know the history of that. (Trying to discourage bathroom phone calls? Someone got upset about hearing bathroom noises? Do they have a lunchtime bathroom sing-a-long club? ???)

    I have concluded that I am not a fan of Loud Bathroom Music, but apparently someone out there is and took steps to make it happen. I don’t have a problem related to this that needs advice or anything, just thought I’d share the weirdness.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Maybe tied into the fire alarm system for audio warnings, and this was the only/cheapest way to bring the bathrooms into compliance/compatibility with the system?

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        No, these are boomboxes rather than anything tied into a building PA system. I didn’t spend a whole lot of time investigating features, but it looks like a cd/radio/maybe tape situation. They built a little shelf so that the radios could sit near the paper towel dispenser at the side of the sink.

        It just took so much…intent to build a wooden shelf and buy boomboxes that it feels like it must have been the result of some office issue at some point.

    2. Havarti*

      First: Love your username
      Second: That’s… interesting. I mean, my dream would be actual fans blowing in fresh air and taking out the remains of Taco Tuesday. But there’s a bad part of me that would want to sing along while perched on my porcelain throne.

  126. Clever Girl*

    Is it possible to get a doctor’s note saying you need an office with a window due to S.A.D.?

    I recently moved to a new department and have a new manager. My new office has no windows. I work on a computer all day so I rarely leave my office–once in a while for a meeting but that’s about it. My old job would let me work from home a couple times a week and my home office is in the sunroom with lots of natural light. My new manager claims that her boss (one of the VPs) won’t let anyone work from home so her hands are tied. I don’t know if that’s actually true or if that’s just an excuse because she doesn’t want us working from home but doesn’t want to be the bad guy.

    I am SO depressed recently. I really think it’s that I sit in a windowless room for 8 hours a day every day. When I get to work I just sit in my car for like 10 minutes trying to gather up the energy to go inside. On work days I have the HARDEST time getting out of bed on time. I hit snooze 4 times and end up needing to skip my shower and sometimes I’m still late to work. On weekends and holidays, though, I’m awake at 6 am and full of energy ready to start the day. I’m so incredibly HAPPY on weekends, but then Sunday night I start to get depressed because I have to go back to work. I’m thinking about reaching out to the EAP and seeing if I can get a medical accommodation that I need a window and/or to work from home some. Do you guys think that would even work? Would a therapist even give me a note like that?

    2. E*

      Another option might be a 10 minute break to walk outside every couple of hours, if a windowed office is difficult to procure.

    3. Havarti*

      Have you looked into one of those SAD lamps? I was literally researching them this morning. The Cut has a “5 Best SAD Lamps on Amazon in 2020” article. Dunno how good they actually are but they may help.

      Where I’m at, only higher level people get offices with windows while lower level staff are in windowless, interior ones. So it depends how things work in your office to determine how likely they’d grant your request. Though they may suggest the SAD lamp too before moving you or letting you work from home. Hope you feel better soon.

      1. Havarti*

        Also, another thought: do you like your job? Apart from the lack of windows? Because nothing made me hate Sunday nights more and cause me to drag my feet out the door each day like that one awful job I had years ago.

        1. WellRed*

          This was what I wondered. Do you actually like the job?

          In the meantime, take some of the other steps to mitigate this somewhat. You can’t ask for accommodations without some basic effort on your part. I mean you can, but they’ll probably ask what you’ve tried so far.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      It might be worth looking into, but I think it will also depend on your office and how much of an “undue hardship” this would be. For example, if you have some offices that have windows and it’s just a matter of you switching to get into one of those, that might be worth pursuing. However, if none of your offices have windows (like my workplace) and getting a window would involve a lengthy and expensive construction project, I think that hurts your chances significantly.

      Additionally, I believe that ADA requirements don’t force your employer to give you the exact accommodation you request, just something that is a reasonable accommodation for your condition. So they might not have to give you the window even if a therapist says it’d be good for you, but they can offer to give you a five minute break outside every hour or something like that.

      Not an ADA expert, so take all this with a grain of salt.

    5. EJane*

      I don’t know about moving offices, but it’s possible to get a lightbox that emulates daylight, and it would make sense to me to have the company pay for it (the good ones are $200+)
      I also have obscene SAD, in addition to MDD, so winter is unusually debilitating. I started using an Alaska Northern Lights lightbox, which is timed to turn on every morning around 6:30.
      I have been more alert the last two winters than I’ve ever been.

      Your office could possibly refuse the “office with a window” thing on grounds of undue hardship, if it involves moving someone else OUT of that office, and I’m not sure about the working-from-home request as a winter accommodation, because I don’t know how the fact that it’s season-specific would affect it. But I think you would have a lot of success proposing an option that’s less logistically complicated. You can get a note from a doctor, by the way; doesn’t have to be a therapist.

    6. cmcinnyc*

      Windows are major in an office, and they are usually awarded on the basis on seniority, not S.A.D. I think reaching out to the EAP is a good idea regardless, but know that being late to work a lot and then needing the scarce window will make you various enemies. You very well might get a WFH accommodation or special lights, though, and that would help. If you have a company laptop, is there a common area with more light where you could sit at the brightest part of the day?

    7. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Oh man, I got lured into my current job with a window office. Less than a year later we moved locations and I got a windowless office. The people who make these decisions don’t seem to understand the impact of spending so much time in a windowless space where you can’t even figure out what the weather is doing without leaving the room.

      I don’t have any suggestions but just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re experiencing this, because S.A.D. is a real thing and is unfortunately at odd with office politics.

    8. mreasy*

      I have never had any luck with this. I’ve asked managers if a doctor note would work (I have a clinical SAD diagnosis) and they said window wouldn’t be possible but they could get me a lamp. (I do find that using a SAD lamp every morning is a huge help.)

    9. Koala dreams*

      Yes, I encourage you to look into getting accomodations. Some companies have s special procedure you need to follow. I don’t think it’s okay for your boss to deny accomodations just because her boss doesn’t like them. That sounds very much like discrimination to me, and you might want to look into discrimination laws where you live.

      Accomodations I’ve heard about are, besides working from home, getting a sun light (an extra bright lamp) and going outside for extra breaks whenever you get tired.

  127. EJane*

    I have been venting about work for a WHILE now, almost eight months. Most recently, there was the Mr. No Show saga: an employee who failed to show up multiple times over about two months, and management was dragging their feet on firing him. (turns out the one dragging his feet was Davos, our company owner and soft spot.)
    Well, he was let go last week. He no-showed AGAIN, I mentioned something to Clegane (our service manager, my immediate supervisor and the one with teeth), who looked murderous.
    An hour later, Mr. No Show came in, had a two-minute meeting, collected his stuff, and left.
    FINALLY.

    I later found out through discussions with Caitlyn, the owner’s wife, that Mr. NS had been the root of the VAST majority of the toxicity in the company. Most notably, Mr. NS and Arya, our former admin who I had previously been very close friends with, were dating, and when she left, she cited the favoritism I received as a reason.
    I have a psychiatric disability.
    Which she was WELL aware of.
    That favoritism? The accommodations I’d negotiated to continue being able to function at work.
    Which she was also well-aware of.
    (insert enormous eye-roll here.)

    The day after Mr. NS left, the younger tech on our team who had idolized him put in his two-week notice. (insert another eyeroll). Groupie doesn’t have another job lined up, and the local job market if you want to stay out of retail is TINY. Good luuuuuuuck kiddo.

    Anyway, point is, the energy in the office has changed completely. The tolerance for b*llsh*t has VANISHED. Clegane has finally been given the free reign that he should have had from the start. He and I are on the same page about the increase in authority I need to do my job successfully, and our staff has almost completely turned over. The only people still here from when I started are myself, our shop lead and our best technician (in terms of soft skills).
    I’m still keeping an eye out for good opportunities, but no longer feel like I need to escape a burning building.

    Yay for hopeful endings.

  128. mssparks*

    I’m bristling over increasing micromanaging in my department. My manager had always been pretty hands-off, but he made a bad hire who still can’t do the job 2 years later. Every couple months, there’s an announcement that another routine process will need management approval before moving forward because of mistakes getting through. These processes are not rocket science and I’m starting to feel like we have a missing stair. Any tips for keeping perspective?

    1. Kathenus*

      If you have a good relationship with your manager, maybe you could talk to him and say that changing protocols (new management approval steps for routine processes) for everyone when there is only one person (or a small number of people) who are not up to speed is demoralizing for the rest of the team, and ask whether they could consider targeting these to the person/people who need the oversight versus the whole group? If it’s done calmly and professionally, hopefully the least that would happen would be status quo, and at best maybe your manager would have an a-ha moment and change how he manages these things.

  129. Red Lobster*

    Has any of you been impacted by the manufacturing recession? How are the lay offs influencing morale? It’s pretty depressing at my job, seeing good and capable people being let go for no good reason other than to save some costs on a spreadsheet and meanwhile there job is crucial and now we are all expected to pick up their work. I’m so disappointed and angry.

    1. Sigh*

      As someone in an office not on the floor, the worst for me is knowing this is happening while the CEOs jet around business class and plan on moving their jobs overseas.

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      A friend’s workplace installed a bathroom sound machine like the kind for yoga studios, that plays chirping birds or whatever. Everyone hates it.

  131. Calliope*

    Hoping to get help with a current work situation.

    I have a new manager (former coworker) and a new junior coworker assigned to help with my projects. I’m senior (in title, experience, etc.) and considered the go-to expert, etc. We have a new, big project right now but the manager is assigning the new junior coworker *all* of the work. I asked my manager how he saw my role in this project and basically I don’t have any responsibilities except to review coworker’s work and maybe work on some side affiliated projects if I can identify them.

    Manager “jokes” that he thinks I’m leaving a lot so I don’t know if that’s a part of it (making sure he’s not relying on my work in any way). Is there a way to push back on the division of work? I don’t even think the setup is good for the junior coworker (it’s the first time he’s even doing anything like this; it’s not just a stretch, it’s “first assignment.”). But I’m frustrated and bored and all of the “good” parts of my job have been assigned to someone else. If I wasn’t looking before, I feel pushed into doing it now.

    1. Havarti*

      Depending the mood I’m in, if he made some “joke” about me leaving, I’d say, “Ha ha. If you don’t assign me something to actually do, I may leave after all.” But that’s a last resort. Worth pushing back on the jokes with a puzzled “You keep saying that. Why do you think I’m leaving?” and see if he squirms.

      Have you met with him to ask why you were given no responsibilities beyond review on this project and why this has all been placed on the shoulders of a junior employee? If he can’t give you a straight answer on that, that in and of itself is an answer and a bad one. What else are you working on? Do you have other assignments to do or are you now being underutilized? What’s your manager like as a person? The petty sort? Any connection to the junior employee like family, friends?

      1. Calliope*

        Thank you so much for this response!

        The manager is petty and can be very suspicious. That’s making all this harder, I think, in trying to navigate it. He’s friendly with coworker but not that much – I think a lot of it is that the coworker was his first real hire and manager thinks coworker can be a great success example (of why manager’s amazing). That, and they’re both the only men in the department. (And/or manager doesn’t like that other people in the company have said to me, in front of him, that I would have been a great manager and are surprised I didn’t apply, etc.)

        I don’t have any other assignments -manager said the other day we’re both pretty much stuck where we are on this project. It’s all so strange. You’re right, the next step is to ask him directly why I don’t have any specific responsibilities. That’ll be illuminating, if nothing else. And definitely update my resume and cover letter in the meantime.

        Thank you!

        1. Havarti*

          The lack of any other assignment gives you justification to get an answer from him and/or go above his head to the grandboss (if grandboss is remotely reasonable). But keeping him as your manager is a career dead end either way unless grandboss successfully beats the pettiness out of him (unlikely) so if there’s no possibility of going somewhere else within the company, definitely brush the dust off your resume. Good luck!

  132. Ciela*

    Don’t be known for your wardrobe…

    We just re-hired a former employee who was part time in 2005? 2006? Okay at her work, not a great attitude, and coincidentally, the first person with whom I had the “booty shorts conversation”. When the bosses announced that Daisy was coming back, I had 3 conversations with different people wanting me to confirm that she was the one that always wore short shorts.
    The dress code in our handbook is confusing, oddly written, and not at all reflective of what people can actually wear. No shirts with writing? Ummm, my boss often wears shirts advertising concerts or pubs. In practice, you should not wear clothing that exposes your underwear, body parts that would normally be covered by underwear, or make it more likely that such things would be exposed if you engage in normal activities (walking, sitting, standing, etc.)
    So yeah, I don’t think shorts with a 2″ inseam were appropriate for work. And here we are, 15 years later, and that is what she is remembered for. I do hope she’s matured. I mean, she’s not in her 20’s anymore.

    1. Lyudie*

      Can I just say that I love that you call her Daisy hahaha.

      There was a woman in my company who was known for her very very short skirts and very very high heels. I think I was visibly taken aback the first time I ran into her in the ladies room, though I had heard about her before that.

        1. valentine*

          Amend the policy to read: “Hemline for all employees must be as long as the original Daisy Duke’s (shoutout to Catherine Bach),” tell everyone to shut up about her, and lead by example.

    2. Havarti*

      Along with professional wardrobe choices, I hope her work and attitude have also improved in 15 years. That’s my biggest concern.

      Ye gods, it’s been 15 years since 2005…

    3. Ciela*

      yes, Daisy :) And as not fantastic as she was, we’ve had much, much worse since then. Daisy can use a ruler, and not intentionally try to set the building on fire, and was not openly defiant of really, really, simple directions given to her by the bosses. Sometimes surly to co-workers, but respectful towards bosses.

      Yeah, that girl was told not to bother working out her notice period. And we changed the locks the day she quit…

    4. JustAThought*

      Don’t be the one focusing on what you remember about bad choices of someone years ago. If they are hired back, maybe, just maybe they’ve skipped a few levels and if you are focusing years back, you’re the asshole present day.

      1. Ciela*

        Sorry for hoping that she would have matured, and being prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt.

    5. Close Bracket*

      And how did you respond to these people? Don’t be known for being willing to gossip about other people’s wardrobes. I hope you shut them down with something like, “She’s the one who worked on X” or “That was 2005? Why are we still talking about that?”

      1. Ciela*

        We’ve had about a dozen part-timers since then that did mailing and QC, and she’s still the only one that wore short shorts. I’m sorry, but that was by far the most memorable thing about her.

        She started today and so far, so good.

  133. AnotherLibrarian*

    So, I am hiring for a position and a young man applied whose worked in my office as a GA, though not in my department. He has worked with my team occasionally. Here’s the problem- his resume and cover letter were awful. Truly, astonishingly awful. He emphasized strange, irrelevant things and seemed ignorant to core job duties (clearly stated in the ad). Additionally, he’s exceedingly slow at his tasks. Even if his cover letter and resume had shined, we wouldn’t want to hire him. He’s young and I want to do the right thing by him. Our hiring rules are strict, but I can probably pull him aside and say something… I’m just not sure what to say. Advice for others who’ve navigated this situation effectively.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      That’s very kind of you, but if he’s still working for you, I’d be concerned about that making the working relationship awkward and/or opening you up to being his resume coach.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        He doesn’t work for me. He works for another department, totally different manager. I go days and never see him. He worked for my team before I was hired when we were short staffed. I agree though that the awkwardness is part of what I am concerned about.

    2. Havarti*

      Do you know his boss? If yes, could you do an informal “Hey, saw Fergus applied to the position I’m looking to fill. His resume and cover letter really don’t make clear what he’s done under you. I’m guessing you haven’t seen them? They say XYZ. Weird, huh? Not sure he’s doing himself any favors there. Think he’d be open to some suggestions or something?” and let them take the lead there?

      Ideally, yes, we should guide the younger staff to improving their job skills including resume writing. Someone like my boss would be happy to help there. However, if you don’t know how he’d react, I would test the waters first with his boss and see. That being said, your investment in improving his resume writing skills may give him the mistaken impression that you will seriously consider him if he makes a better resume or something. Which doesn’t sound like the case. So saying “Hey, your resume sucks but that’s not why we’re rejecting your application. Anyway, here’s some tips…” won’t go over well probably. Might be best to stay quiet and just focus on how well he performed his tasks.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Part of my conflict is that he’s a student assistant and that makes me feel a little more obligated to say something than I usually would. However, I agree that the fact that we wouldn’t have hired him even with a stellar resume and cover letter does add a wrinkle. Thank you.

        1. Havarti*

          As you don’t really work with him and he only worked with your team before you were hired, any suggestions for improvement should really come from his supervisor then.

  134. PlantGirl*

    I’m in a non-profit field (education-based) and have worked my way up from individual contributor to manager. I’m now considering director-type roles and wondering about doing online classes/certificate program in non-profit management as that is not my educational background and I’ve learned everything I know now about the management side (budgets, staff development, etc) from on-the-job training and personal research. Has anyone done this? Is it worth it? Will it help my chances moving forward when job-hunting or just help me learn and grow as a professional?

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      Nonprofit manager here. I think it’s unlikely that training or certification will impact your ability to get a director-level role. Online classes definitely won’t have any effect (but honestly, I don’t think even a master’s degree would have much impact). If it’s helpful for your work, go for it, but otherwise I think you’ll find that your work experience and network are what will get you to these opportunities.

      1. PlantGirl*

        Thank you. I guess I’m also asking – will taking these classes help provide some new insights or background that I may be missing since I came into this from a completely different field, but I have been doing it for the last 10 years.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I think it depends on the course. Are there specific aspects to your work that you feel need bolstering? Like budgets and finance, or managing a team? Or is it education-related content that you’re interested in?

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      In 2005, I earned a certificate of non-profit management from Duke University while I was an individual contributor, in Fayetteville NC

      In 2009, I earned a Masters of Public Admin using my GI Bill (I had to get a Masters because they wouldn’t support another Bachelors)

      In 2011, I earned a fundraising certificate course through a center for non-profit management, when I was an E.D., in Nashville TN.

      I did this because I like to learn and hone my craft – which is 20 years of non-profit service.

      I didn’t do this for more money because the only certs that really do that are CFRE’s

      I did this because like you, I learned everything on the job and that’s like learning how to drive from your parents – you learn some bad habits or ineffective processes/procedures and going to a cert course can undo or realign your knowledge

      Unfortunately, non-profits aren’t great at rewarding education achievements with better pay or position opportunities. We love to love scrappy and sometimes it shows.

      I think learning for the sake of improving yourself, your craft, your knowledge, and always seeking new ways to apply knowledge is a selling point.

      For non-profit I would learn:
      – Program design: logical model, needs assessment, goals setting, implementation, evaluation, and monitoring.
      – Finances to effectively read, analyze, explain and use a budget and financials as capacity builders not weapons or liabilities.
      – Data analytics and visualization. Data science in a non-profit is a growing trend
      – Grant writing – know how to write one even if it’s not your job because every role contributes to a grant whether it’s finances, evaluation, program research, or communications
      – Fundraising – making the ask. Every Director should be able to go out with the Development Director and hold their own in the conversation as well as present their case for funding.
      – Technology – how to decide what you need, how to find information on it, evaluate information and make an informed choice.
      – Diversity and inclusion – Board/committees, volunteers, staff, and clients

  135. severance snape*

    So I was just fired and offered a severance package. I would like to negotiate with the severance agreement that this company would only be able to give the dates I worked there if someone calls for a reference. Does anyone have any experience doing this? I’m considering lawyering up but due to the aforementioned firing am afraid of the fees.

    1. Daisy-dog*

      Do you know that the company does give out that information to references? Do you know if they are unlikely to compromise? I wouldn’t get a lawyer until you have asked if this is a possibility first. They want you to sign the agreement.

      1. S.S*

        Thank you! I’m not sure on how likely they are to compromise, but I know that I might have room to push for certain things. I do not know what their reference policy is, but right now it is not clearly stated in the body of the letter.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’m sorry, I know from experience how hard this is. I don’t think you need a lawyer at this point if you aren’t planning to contest in some way the basis for the firing or the severance amount. If you are willing to accept those things, I’d just ask for a letter that clearly states the separation, severance amount, any details like getting paid out for vacation time, and that they agree to respond to any future reference requests confirming only your employment and the dates you worked there. If they refuse, then it’s time to consider escalating. Good luck.

      1. S.S.*

        Thanks first and foremost for the condolences. It’s really a mixed bag of a situation. I knew I wanted to be fired, because I was likely to get severance and unemployment so I could financially take care of myself and pay my tuition (I’m also in grad school) while I look for new opportunities, and I was the firm punching bag for a whole year. By the end of my time there, I was so physically sick and distressed from treatment by management I truly couldn’t do my job anymore. If I quit I wouldn’t have had the financial support.

        I had considered getting a lawyer’s opinion about contesting the amount and basis for the firing. Right now it’s “poor performance.” While my company does have an at-will statement in their contract, they also recently put into writing an employee termination procedure that included written warning and a performance improvement plan. Since neither of those were used to evaluate my performance, and also because we recently had a partner say on a call regarding staff reviews that “he doesn’t keep track of individual performances or what people do that are good or bad, he just has a general sense,” I considered I might be able to contest the claim. At the end of the day I think “Poor Fit” would be more reasonable. Thoughts here?

        Thanks again for this. I will probably reach out to the HR consultant they hired on Monday with your initial suggestions. I appreciate it!

        1. Kathenus*

          Given your additional information on wanting to get the basis and amount changed, I’d contact a lawyer. It doesn’t cost much to get one consultation and have them send a letter. In my case I got nowhere talking to HR myself, and an immediate increase in severance once a letter was sent from a lawyer. And definitely add that they will support your unemployment application. So walking back from my original post, before talking to HR again I’d either 1) decide exactly what I want (amount, wording on reason, not contesting unemployment, what they’ll say in a reference check) and have it in writing, or 2) hold off until you contact a lawyer.

          You don’t have a lot to lose by doing #1 if you trust yourself to be able to walk away if they don’t give you what you want. When I did, I said that I’d be consulting my attorney next and they would be in touch with them on next steps. If you are concerned with being able to stand up to them in a face to face meeting and holding firm, then I’d wait for #2. Good luck with whichever way you choose.

          1. SS*

            thank you SO MUCH for this additional detailed advice!! I think I’ll reach out to a few lawyers today to figure out costs and then take action Monday. You rock!

  136. Overeducated*

    I’m so happy about my new boss I may NOT jump at the first opportunity to leave this job! My permanent boss is one of the people who filled in during our two year manager gap, so they’re a known quantity – fair, smart, and really really good at asking incisive questions. But I’m only back from parental leave part time for a couple months (using intermittent FMLA) and I already have whiplash from how much I’m trying to get done. Whew!

  137. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    The exec who’s obsessed with me being trans has escalated to racist microaggressions. Reports are flooding in to HR, employees are discussing collective action, and I’m hoping something will finally be done, but it’s really making me want to look for another job. Except every other part of my life is also exploding and it would be nice if this part stayed stable, and also where am I going to go where no one’s racist or transphobic? Literally nowhere unless I do a complete career change and go work for Lambda Legal or something.

    Does sensitivity training ever actually help people who are very high up in the organization? Or do they nap through it and go right on being insensitive?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I hate to say this, but I had a sexist coworker make sexist jokes at the sensitivity training. He was fired a few months later. Anyway… I think you may need to look for another job. Just knowing you have another option can be really liberating and might help you let things go. Yes, there is some discrimination everywhere (about all sorts of things), but there are also healthy positive workplaces. It doesn’t sound like you’re in one.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        The last time I looked for work, no one wanted to hire me for what I wanted to do, and kept pointing me to parts of the industry that I have no interest in. And I just got promoted to director a few months ago, so I’m worried about it looking bad if I jump ship now—as though I pushed for a director title to make myself more attractive to people hiring at a management level, and then immediately took advantage of it. (I did plan to eventually take advantage of it, but ideally not for a few years, once I had some significant accomplishments to go with it.)

        But you’re probably not wrong. Man, that makes me so sad. I really want to say “The workplace is great other than this!” but in a lot of ways it’s not. With good leadership, it could be, but I don’t know that that will ever happen.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Sensitivity training helps people who are nice, underneath, but just haven’t thought about it much. Your exec does not sound like that kind of person.

      Try a low-key job hunt, where you mention it in your network and maybe talk to a recruiter or two, until you’ve been in the director slot for a year. If nothing works out before then, kick it up.

      This gives you breathing space for your personal life to calm down, and / or to see if the company will fire him, but also an end date.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        He’s very proud of what a leftist he is! But he’s an old dog with no interest in learning new tricks, and culture moving on past him leaves him continually baffled. All of his comments are “compliments” and he can’t see why they upset people—it’s like when men catcall women and don’t get why women hate it. And he’s majority owner of the company and thus unfireable.

        Unfortunately, mentioning it in my network would be very difficult to do without word getting around to my colleagues. I’m also not sure I want to stay in the llama/alpaca industry at all. (At what point does this become a midlife crisis?) But thank you for the suggestion of setting a date of a year in the director job. That kind of structure does help me stop panicking and thrashing around so much.

    3. Kathenus*

      I think you’re at the point where it’s all about what action HR does or doesn’t take. It sounds like there may be enough momentum and complaints that something positive could happen, so since you have other life issues and would like to stay if possible, I’d suggest trying to hold on a little longer and see what’s next. You don’t speak to what you have discussed with HR, but if you haven’t clearly filed a harassment complaint against the exec, using language of racial discrimination since you mention this occurring, suggest you do so. Best of luck.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Oh, trust me, HR has emails on file from me with phrases like “unsafe work environment” and “protected classes for employment” and detailed records of what was said when and to whom—I pulled no punches there.

    4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I just wanted to say that I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I want you to know that NOT every workplace allows people to be treated like this – I can say with 100% certainty if someone at my current job was saying anything like what your coworker is saying, they would be terminated immediately. That information might not help you right now but please don’t give up hope!

    5. Pippa*

      I am sorry, this is wrong-no other way to describe it. Full stop.
      I wonder whether leaving now is the answer though, since you mention that reports are flooding into HR and employees are discussing taking collective action. Especially since you also mention that now is not a good time for you to be putting energy into a job change. Is possible for you to lean into the support of your collegues and allow time for the org to deal with the exec? Only you have that answer. Either choice potentially has you expending more emotional energy than necessary because of someone else’s bad behavior. Again, wrong.
      So I wonder two things: 1) do you have more support at work than you think and does can such level of support overtake the exec’s misbehavior even if his behavior never changes; 2) what action plan is in your best interests- immediately, 6 months from now, etc.
      Sometimes I have stayed in abusive relationships too long, giving it just one more chance repeatedly. Sometimes I have jumped immediatedly. Unfortunately, often those decisions were driven by what was best for them. My new approach is to determine what is best for me. So, my suggestion to you is to do what is best for you. Best of luck.

  138. MOAS*

    Today’s petty rant:

    I have a co-manager who always says “I wasn’t there.” to EVERYTHING. Even when bosses point out she WAS there. She says “I wasn’t there.”

    How can you constantly use that as an excuse is beyond me IMO.

    1. Antilles*

      That’s a strange one. It can make sense on some occasions, sure. But as a go-to excuse on a normal day-to-day basis, it seems like you’d run across the immediate response of people asking *why* you weren’t there.
      If you didn’t bother to show up to the project meeting and couldn’t be hassled to follow up afterwards and find out what you missed? Not my fault, not my problem.

      1. MOAS*

        It’s almost every day and at every meeting “oh I wasn’t there”. There were times when I literally pointed it out to her that she WAS there and she kept insisting she wasn’t. My bosses have pointed it out and said “you were there!” and she shakes her head. I had to cover her work for her. Most of the time we laugh it off, but other days it gets to me.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Possibly she truly doesn’t remember. Which would mean the higher ups need to address the fact that her memory gaps are causing work problems.

  139. Midwest writer*

    Just a gripe based on my morning. If you’re in marketing and you’re doing a PR interview for a newspaper fluff piece, please, please make sure you’re able to be quoted by name in the story. Do not email the reporter later and ask if it’s OK to not use your name because you don’t want your marketing work visible in your Google results, which might confuse people who Google you because of your writing career.
    On a related note, if you want to talk to the media but don’t want your name used, tell us up front! We can usually find some reasonable solution, but telling me after the interview is done just annoys me.

    1. WellRed*

      Solidarity from New England! Also, had this happen recently, in addition to someone else wanting me to hold off on publishing after all the interviews, etc. Great, there’s several hours I could have devoted to finding another story since I can’t use yours and now I’ve got a hole to fill! Arrrgh!

      1. Midwest writer*

        Right? I considered emailing the production company (it was a feature on an independent film that’s getting a showing here soon) and telling them how annoyed I was. But I didn’t. I also wanted to email her and suggest that she go by her middle name for her marketing job and her first name for her writing career. I also wanted to make snarky comments about how, if you’re so worried about being Googleable, instead of worrying about being GOOD AT WRITING, you’re probably not that great at writing. But I didn’t.

    2. valentine*

      Can you give people a questionnaire that includes “Consent to being named in the piece (space to enter name)” 24 hours pre-interview?

  140. Lucette Kensack*

    I have been out of work on medical leave for most of this year (with some intermittent working from home). I go back, part-time, on Monday, and I’m super nervous.

    My workplace has been and will continue to be incredibly kind and supportive… but I know that they didn’t actually manage any of my work while I was away, and I’m going to have to scramble to achieve any of my goals this year. Six weeks unexpectedly gone is going to result in more than six weeks of delay in my projects — I’m not starting from exactly the same point I would have been if I came to work on January 3; I’m coming back to frustrated partners, balls that got dropped, priorities that have changed, etc. I’m pretty sure that I can’t achieve at least two of my main goals for the year.

    I’m also nervous because we’re right in the middle of some big changes: budgets are being cut, a key 2o-year employees resigned, and our boss is using the opportunity to restructure the team. I’m not concerned that I will lose my paycheck, but I think it’s likely that my actual job will change. I’m not necessarily opposed to that — but it’s challenging to not only have to try to salvage my program’s year, but also quickly figure out what I want a new role to look like and advocate for that.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      That is a lot to take on. Have you considered using Alison’s script for mentioning project issues to your boss- “I can do X and Y, but not Z” sort of language? I think that might help here. Getting things out in the open can really clear up expectations and make you feel less like you have to do it all.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Yes. My boss and I actually met this week and I raised this with her. She’s supportive, but she’s not going to be able to solve the problem by taking something off my plate.

        The fundamental problem is how our work is structured. I run programs at a nonprofit. In addition to running the program on a day-to-day basis, I’m obligated to bring in the money to run the program, in both earned dollars (like tuition, event registrations, etc.) and philanthropic dollars (donations, grants, etc.). My main program is mostly funded through tuition, so if we don’t run the the program we won’t earn the income (and we’ll still have the expenses, which are mostly staff time, i.e. the last six weeks of my salary that, thankfully, got paid even though we didn’t generate any income).

        So the thing that would make the rest of this year possible would be to not run part of the program at all. But not running that would result in missing our budget by 1/3.

        Ugh!

    2. PX*

      Um yes. While its only February, if being out that long will have affected your ability to meet goals, absolutely raise that as soon as you get back.

      Not sure how decent your boss is, but I’d make it a point to have a meeting within the first 2 weeks and frame it as – given that I’ve been out for X amount of time, and I’m only going to be part time for the next X weeks, that means we need to re-prioritise the goals to adjust for that. Here’s what I would propose: ‘blah blah blah’.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Oh, good point and something I should have mentioned: Our “year” ends in June. So the projects that were planned for our 3rd and 4th quarters (January – June) are the ones that are in jeopardy.

    3. Fikly*

      Because I would do this – be aware of the temptation to compensate for the time away by working too hard when you come back. It will likely end in you needing more time off, and causing more delays, than if you ramp back up slowly.

  141. HR Path*

    I’m interested in learning more about becoming an HR benefits specialist. I love looking at 401k and health insurance options,but I have no HR background. Are any certifications needed? Would I look for generalist jobs and then try and specialize? Are there any certifications for generalists? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

    1. Daisy-dog*

      HR can be difficult to break into. HRCI & SHRM certifications are the more “respected” certifications for HR generally, but there may be another certification that relates to benefits only. Most certifications require relevant experience or education. I’d recommend looking up job postings and see what is requested. You might want to look at jobs with insurance brokers or financial advisers as well. For a generalist role, you’ll probably need to start with office manager or assistant roles which might not include as much of what you’re interested in.

  142. Emily Elizabeth*

    Happy Valentines Day, everyone! I have a question about conflicting advice during a job search: what is the balance between not having gaps in employment vs making your resume a marketing document with only relevant experience? Specifically, there is a 7 month period in my recent job history in which I worked a combination of part time child care jobs because I knew we would be moving for my partner’s job and didn’t want to job search until we moved. It’s a long enough gap that I feel it’s wrong not to address it on a resume, but it also feels like wasting valuable space to include it. Both in general and in this instance, how do you decide what to include?

    1. AW*

      If you’re keen not to have a gap on your resume, how about list in on one line, something like

      Jan-20 to July-20 temporary childcare worker at ABC

      That way you’ll show what you were doing but not take up a tone of space.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      I think 7 months is okay for a gap. Especially if you moved in that period, so you’re applying for jobs in a different city than your last full-time role.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If the jobs before it and after it were of a reasonable duration and relevant to jobs you’re looking for now, I wouldn’t actually worry about filling it. My resume has a gap on it between May 2012 and January 2014, but the job I left in 2012 was in Seattle and almost 8 years duration, and the one I started in 2014 was in Indianapolis and I still work there. So the fact that I moved across the country somewhere in that window is fairly evident, and I don’t worry about the fact that I worked ten hours a week at a front desk for six months, did a lot of travel, moved, and intentionally lived off my savings during the gap. If someone actually asked about the gap, I’d be prepared to explain it, but filling it doesn’t need to take up space on my resume.

    5. Nom de Plume*

      I have a TWO YEAR gap on my resume from when I moved when my son was an infant and then stayed home with him for a few years. I explained why I wasn’t working in my cover letter when I went back to work, but when I moved on from that job 3 years later, no one asked me about the resume gap when I was job searching. So I doubt anyone will even notice a 7 month gap.

  143. another scientist*

    Coming to THANK everyone and Alison in particular, because I just accepted a new job that I am super excited about. It is a significant career change for me, and I have been told by several people that I had a great cover letter, all made possible by the fantastic advice on AAM! I even talked to someone from a different hiring committee (didn’t get hired for that job), who confirmed my intel that there were several candidates in that pool with 5+ years of experience ahead of me, but that my CV and cover letter did leave an impression with the whole committee!

    I also asked The Magic Question in my interviews, which they loved. AND, I psyched myself up to ask for more money on their first offer, using the transcript from the AAM podcast episode on negotiating. I can’t tell you how helpful that was, it addressed all those fears and inhibitions I had. I had never tried to negotiate an offer! I was also not in a position of great leverage. But I still did it and they came back with a tiny increase! I am over the moon!

    Thank you all so much and thanks, Alison!

    1. another scientist*

      for reference, here is the episode on negotiating
      https://www.askamanager.org/transcript-of-what-should-salary-negotiation-look-like-episode-9
      and I asked (among others) question no. 6 from this post
      https://www.thecut.com/article/questions-to-ask-in-a-job-interview.html
      and one of my (very busy, big wig) interviewers scheduled a second interview, because we ran out of time the first time and they really liked that question and wanted to talk some more with me.

      So helpful! You are the best, Alison!

  144. Mimmy*

    Need time management tips STAT!!

    I’m starting to get nervous about staying on top of my school work while working part-time. I have no idea how people who work full time manage!

    Setup:
    – I work 3 days a week (sometimes 4 if I let my supervisor talk me into it).
    – I’m taking 2 classes
    – This graduate degree program is completely online, so you have to keep on top of readings, discussion board posts and projects. One of my classes has two separate discussions each week.
    – I think all posts, in both classes, are due by Thursday, one class requiring it to be done by 5:00 pm – all other classes I’ve had, including the other class I’m taking, set the deadline as 11:59 pm / midnight.
    – I have to respond to at least two other students in each discussion

    I know that many people work well into the night on school work. As part of my self-care, I try to avoid staying up late to do schoolwork. So yes, this means I try to cram everything in to the time I’m allowing myself. This week, that led me to be late on one of my posts, which I know is going to be a point deduction. I actually contemplated taking yesterday morning off of work to get my post done on time because I knew I had only one student in the morning and I figured someone else could take her or even just sub for me. What happens? Said student calls out sick! *facepalm*

    I don’t know if it’s a time management thing or if I need to adopt more efficient strategies or if I should sacrifice sleep. Thank god I don’t have to go back to work til Wednesday (we’re closed on Monday for President’s Day and I don’t normally work on Tuesdays).

    1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I think you should look at patterns in the week to identify when, specifically, you have time to get these things done before the deadlines. When do the discussions open for the week? When have enough other students posted that you can reasonably write responses? Then you can figure out if this is a thing where organizing your week differently can help. (For example, if you consistently don’t work on Tuesdays, are there enough other posts by Tuesday that you can get the week’s discussion contributions finished by then?) If everyone else in your class is staying up late Wednesday night to get started with the discussion board and there’s no way to get in your replies to their posts sooner than that because there isn’t anything to reply to, bring it up with your professor because that’s a pretty narrow window and a good reason to ask if you can post your replies after work on Thursday to compensate.

      1. Fikly*

        I did online classes. The when do other students post is a key thing to find out here, because that can vary a lot, and if they all post late (not uncommon) that is something you won’t be able to do anytime other than right before the deadline.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Only you can decide if you want to sacrifice sleep or sacrifice something else. You don’t explain any other commitments or activities you have besides work and sleep. But you should schedule in some time for rest or fun. All work and no play reduces your efficiency.

      When I worked full time and took graduate classes online, I sacrificed sleep. A lot of sleep. Also I was a procrastinator so I could have been more efficient, but also I was a procrastinator because I wanted to do than work, schoolwork, and sleep. And being tired made me more susceptible to mindless web surfing instead of doing school work online. I helped myself sometimes by going to a coffee shop or library where i was less likely to waste time and more likely to work more diligently, but that wasn’t option for late nights.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve been both working full-time and student-ing full-time for most of the last … geez, 2007, so 12+ years. Make best best friends with your calendar. Looking back at the last few weeks, how much time has each class taken for you to do its assignments? Pad that a little bit and block off unmovable time on your calendar, before Thursdays (so maybe weekends, maybe Sunday afternoon and Tuesday morning, whatever works for you), in two chunks. You can hard-limit yourself to “class A on Sundays and class B on Tuesdays,” or you can do “top-level d-board postings on Sundays and responses on Tuesdays,” or you can wing it as you go, but those two blocks of time are only for homework. If you get there and you don’t have homework, or you finish early, maybe you can get a jump on next week’s assignment, or maybe you just won yourself an extra hour of Netflix or non-academic reading! But you do not, ever ever ever, barring dire emergency, schedule anything else over your School Time.

      Also, if your pocketbook allows, practice resisting the extra day of work from your boss. :) That’ll help too. Is your work schedule otherwise consistent? It sounds so.

    4. Daisy-dog*

      1. You’ll adjust as time goes on, so just know that it will get easier.
      2. Sleep is important, so definitely try to keep it as a priority.
      3. Try to get 1 week ahead for the discussion boards (even if you can’t post yet, know what you will post). It may mean that 1 week, you have to work twice as hard (or for 2 weeks, work 1.5 times as hard). This will help you avoid missing deadlines. And even for responses – it’s rare that a classmate will be groundbreaking in their post. Just prepare a generic response to a known opinion on the topic and then edit it to fit your classmates.
      4. Personally, I didn’t do all the reading. I just did enough to get by.
      5. Map out the projects for this whole semester and figure out how to fit in the work needed with your time off. Start spacing out the work as best as you can to avoid last minute chaos.

      1. E*

        #3 for sure. The teachers aren’t really expecting grand new ideas in your responses, but rather that you can show you comprehend the basics of the material and can prepare a good response to other posts.

    5. J.B.*

      For me-do as much as possible in short bursts, 30 minutes? On the bus? Go. Get used to good enough. Sometimes that means letting a couple points go on posts. If necessary block out 2 hours every evening so not up super late but I can do a little at a time. Good luck!

    6. Seifer*

      I think I went to that online school… classes are 8 weeks’ long, two classes are considered full time? Anyway. I managed doing it by only taking one class at a time. I had to pay out of pocket but it was less than $1K per class and I work full time so I was okay with that. They only had two due dates, Thursday and Sunday. Mondays are brutal for me, so I wouldn’t do a damn thing Monday. Then Tuesday through Thursday I would do homework.

      If people got their discussion board responses up by the time I did (there’s always a few people that seem to have gone through the whole class by day 2) I would respond on Thursday and just be done for the week. If there was a paper or something due, I would just chip at it a few paragraphs at a time whenever I felt like it. Each of my classes had like, one big paper and then three or four smaller papers, but those little papers would be rolled into the big final paper so after the second class I loathed it, but it was easy enough. I never sacrificed sleep, I just sacrificed a Friday night or a weekend day. Keeping on top of readings and stuff was never a big issue for me, but I’d been taking online classes since 2011 so I know the drill. At my online school, the module opened two weeks before the official start date so I would skim through and either do the readings early because it would help me with the assignments or just note which weeks were heavier on reading.

      The thing for me was not stopping. My roommate also took classes at the same school that I did, and he would not do anything until Thursday and then scramble and stay up late. And then not do any of the response posts until Sunday and then scramble and stay up late. And then complain that he was tired. And then he would not do anything for five weeks and then submit six weeks’ worth of assignments in one day while I sipped coffee for the sake of giving him major side eye every time he complained. I kept up steady progress because I am basically the same as he is and I knew that if I didn’t do something one week, it would start an anxiety/procrastination cycle and I would either fail the class or quietly drop and pretend it never happened.

      I think the key with online classes in general though, is understanding yourself. Am I gonna do the readings on my own or do I need someone to nag me. Does setting iphone reminders count as nagging. Am I an out of sight, out of mind person. Does my very adorable cat like to sit on my laptop as soon as I try to get something done and do I give up to cuddle her every time. Do I tend to do things in bursts and can I make that work or do I need to change the way I work.

  145. The New Wanderer*

    Mostly a vent – the short version is that my manager gave me pretty negative feedback for the first time and I spiraled badly afterwards and am considering job searching.

    The longer version is, I spent the last two weeks on a professional roller coaster where the highs include potential promotion and an expanded role into strategic planning (which includes X tasks) as well as hands-on stuff (Y and Z tasks), and the lows include finding out that not only do a few key people not support my promotion but potentially don’t think I’ve got what it takes to even do my current job much less the expanded role. I was laid off a few years ago in part because my then-management team labeled me as “just” an X role (what I was hired for) even though I also had been doing Y and Z for multiple years with what I felt were solid results (I was the go-to person). I’m not currently at risk of layoff but there’s a lot of uncertainty about budgets and I’m being advised by a few senior colleagues to be super-proactive about claiming my place or something while the dust is still settling.

    So now, annual reviews at the mgmt level are happening and my manager just told me something yesterday that made it clear that the management team (which still includes my previous managers for org chart reasons) STILL considers me “just” an X role even though this year alone I added highly visible A and B tasks with objectively great results. *I* don’t consider myself “just” an X and I resent being typecast/career limited because of it, but it doesn’t seem like I can prove otherwise. Prior to this week she has never indicated that she thought I was “just” an X. In fact my review with my manager late last year had gone really well, she seemed to understand and be impressed by what I accomplished and I got a high rating, and I feel like all of that somehow was forgotten when she compared notes with previous management.

    Here’s the catch. X might be considered an all-talk-and-no-action type of role but it is critically important to the expanded work effort. Without it, any efforts to do the action tasks will be haphazard at best – like building walls in a new apartment complex when you don’t have a floorplan. I thought that was understood and that was why I personally was being positioned for the expanded role. But no, instead when I (proactively!) proposed my newly expanded work statement for this year, my manager kept pressing me on why I hadn’t already done the first two things and why weren’t they done last year, heavily implying that I was lagging way behind and not functioning at my current level (she referenced that directly), and stating that this company does Y and Z, not X, so maybe this isn’t the right position for me if I don’t want to do Y and Z. I was caught off-guard by the whole conversation and have been ranting in my head ever since. We have a follow up 1:1 meeting on Monday to discuss further – that one was already planned, this convo yesterday was spur of the moment.

    SO, X is the primary focus of the outside job I’m considering applying to. They seem to understand its value considering it is 90% of the job description. I think the answer is that I should just take a shot and see if that’s even an option while I’m waiting to see if I can clear things up where I am. I’d really prefer to stay with current company for many reasons but I can’t even transfer within the company because the same management team oversees all of my role category in this region.

    1. voyager1*

      The thing your manger pulled you aside about? Is it something you have already done? Is it something you could have completed?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        There are several versions of the thing dating back years, including a few updated pieces that I completed this summer, but due to the current shift in direction none of these are applicable now. The frustrating thing is, I was asked about the thing a week ago in a very big meeting (managers were all there) and I thought I explained clearly that while a lot of the work had been done, it no longer fit the needs of the program given the new direction we were just informed of THAT DAY, so we would need to revisit and rework it in the first part of this year.

        Ultimately I think it was a failure to communicate effectively with her in the moment. I was off my game and so didn’t explain things as clearly as I needed to, and she does have a habit of barreling ahead rather than give me an opening to respond or provide context. Now that I know this is the situation, I plan to be much better prepared on Monday morning.

  146. getting burnt*

    I have some questions for you all. I’ve been with my company for the majority of my working life. Several years ago, I told them I needed to go part time due to family issues. I said that I’d love to stay with the company but if part time wasn’t an option then I’d need to leave. This launched a several month, highly contentious series of meetings deciding my fate. HR was against part time, but my manager wanted to keep me. I ended being able to stay, and I’m grateful. I truly love my job.

    As part of the agreement, I have no benefits except state-mandated minimum sick time. What this means is that I haven’t had a vacation in years. There have been a few occasions where I’ve been able to bank all my hours in the beginning of the week and take a long a weekend, but that’s about it.

    A few questions, would it be looking a gift horse in the mouth to ask for vacation time as a part-time employee? (When I asked about when negotiating part time, HR made me feel like I was being greedy as they had already done me the favor of granting part time status.) Is it worth potentially getting HR upset with me all over again? I honestly don’t care if it’s paid or unpaid vacation at this point. If vacation time is off the table or not worth the risk, does anyone have tips for avoiding burnout when you’re not able to disconnect from work for any significant period of time?

    1. Fikly*

      Are the family issues health ones, and you are caretaking? Are there any local caretaker respite resources, and thus you could get a break from that side, rather than dealing with your HR department?

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Coming at this from a different angle– in the past I’ve asked if I could have unpaid time off as a full time hourly employee, and the answer was no, because as a full time employee I need to be paid for every pay period or else that messes with my health insurance coverage, etc.

      So in your position as a part time employee who receives no benefits but the bare minimum, HR will not be dealing with the complicated logistics of how unpaid time off screws with other benefits. In other words, they won’t have that as an excuse to say no without even considering your request.

      I’d approach your manager first since they went to bat for you the first time around. It’s not entirely clear how long this arrangement has been in place, but it sounds like at least a year or two? If that’s the case I think it’s entirely fair to say something like “I sincerely appreciate that the company has been willing to adjust my position to part time and overall it’s been a great setup. However, one thing I’ve realized is that I can no longer take time off beyond the occasional long weekend, and I’m beginning to feel the impact of missing one or two weeks off each year. Could we work out a system so that I can take more than the occasional day off?”

      If you’re sure that you’d be fine with unpaid time off, I think that’s your best bet given what you’ve written about it here. But if you think your manager would back you up for paid time off, give it a try with them first and see what they say.

      Good luck! You deserve to take an actual vacation once in a while. That’s not taking advantage or asking for the moon.

    3. WellRed*

      Does it really matter if HR is upset with you as long as your manager is OK with it? Aside from your HRs high horse, it’s not reasonable to expect someone to take no vacation time ever. Even PT retail workers and servers go on vacation, albeit unpaid.

    4. getting burnt*

      thank you all for your comments! I’ve been part time for 5 years. I have a son with special needs. In his case this entails 3-5 appointments with specialists a week. However, he doesn’t require any special care while at home. This does contribute to overall burn out because it feels like I’m the only one who can take him to these appointments, since I’m the only one with the knowledge of his progress and current needs. I’m not sure if there’s respite care for appointments.

      It feels very validating to hear that asking for a vacation isn’t asking for anything extraordinary especially asking for it unpaid. The process of going part time was so contentious and HR was pretty rude about it all and acted like they were doing me a huge favor. But, I’ve consistently gotten great performance reviews, and I fill a niche role that works nicely with part time status. My manager has always been 100% supportive of my situation. I think I’ll approach them soon and let the chips fall where they may with HR.

      Thank you everyone, this was very helpful.

  147. Candid Candidate*

    I recently started working with a freelance client at the beginning of January. It’s owned by a married couple who are in their 30’s with young kids and a busy schedule–the husband has a second job that he travels for frequently. It’s a very smart business idea that was successful in its first year, and they hired me to do some contract marketing consulting–about 10hrs a week. I haven’t done freelance before this; I’m just doing it during a season of unemployment (I was laid off in November) to bring in some extra income until I find another FT position.

    Here’s the issue that I need advice for: the past two weeks, they’ve canceled every meeting and aren’t following up with necessary information I need to keep developing their marketing content. Their reasons for cancelling seem valid – their family had the flu, they’re juggling the husband’s travel schedule, etc. But because they’re also not following up with my requests by email or text, we are behind on our marketing plan AND I’ve clocked half of the billable hours I was hoping for, which means less money for me unless I’m able to make it up next week. If they cancel on me again today, how do I politely but firmly ask them to respect my time, respond to my communication, make decisions about work completed, and share information so I can be productive? We do have a contract, but there’s nothing in there about them cancelling meetings and failing to produce the information I need to fulfill my work for them, which seems like an oversight now but I’ve never seen that written in a freelance contract.

    1. Kathenus*

      With the caveat that freelance work is totally out of my experience, two things popped into my mind reading this. The first is to build in a cancellation fee, this can both respect their situation where as you mention they may have valid reasons to cancel, but also acknowledge that you are running a business as well and that this has a financial impact on you. The second is an open conversation about this issue, and how to plan in ways that this stops happening. If you have a good relationship and this is approached in a non-accusatory way it could be beneficial.

      1. Candid Candidate*

        This is good advice, Kathenus, especially about adding in a cancellation policy.
        Still looking for scripts on how to approach the convo in a non-accusatory way because they did cancel on me again today.

        1. Kathenus*

          It’s hard to know the best script or approach because a lot depends on the wording of the contract about what actions you can/can’t take. I think it also depends on your relationship with them. And external factors – are you not looking for/turning down other work due to this?

          I guess maybe figure out exactly what you want to achieve, and have more than one option since you may not be able to control the outcomes. For example, if #1 is for them to keep all their appointments, and you have no power to make that happen if they don’t cooperate, have #’s 2, 3, and 4 as well. If they can’t consistently keep their appointments might you start taking on other clients, and then their work would have to then fit in your schedule around your new client’s projects? Would your contract allow you to make that decision? So figure out some possible outcomes to bring to the conversation so that you’ve thought out more than one scenario depending on their response.

          But for the conversation itself, try just asking to discuss the status of their project, and in a calm and non-accusatory way bring up that the last minute cancellations are making it difficult for you to not only work on their project, but that the unplanned reduction in billable hours is hurting you financially. Ask if they can commit to a more regular schedule or correspond by email/Skype/etc. even if they’re not able to meet in person. If they can’t commit to making their meetings consistently, let them know that for the sake of your business and financial health you’ll have to take X or Y steps (taking on other projects, or whatever) to fill the gap.

          I’m sure I’m not thinking of all scenarios, but overally my recommendation would be to write down what you need to achieve in the conversation and for your business/finances, set up a meeting even if it’s not in person, and then addressing the situation in a calm way and see where things go. Sounds so frustrating, good luck.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Generally speaking, unless they guaranteed you a certain number of hours per week, your low billables are not their problem. They are clients, they only owe you for work done/delivered, not what you expected.

      Yes, you can be clear that you need info in order to proceed, but if they say “okay, let’s just postpone the project”, then that’s their prerogative.

      This is the nature of freelance work and the reason why having a single client is not a viable business model.

      If you want to cancel the contract, you can. But in your position I’d use the downtime to get more clients.

  148. Opinions Please*

    We are short on staff again, and management has put out the plea “if you know anyone who needs a job, please ask them to send a resume” because it’s hard for them to find good employees, or any employees at all. This is an office job. The work isn’t easy or very difficult, sort of in the middle. But, here are our benefits.

    *health insurance – if you’re just an employee and it’s you, the cost is manageable. Otherwise, if you have a spouse, kids, or both – it’s a chunk of money, just under $300 every two weeks.
    *paid holidays – 6 per year
    *paid sick days – 5 per year, and you have to take 1/2 day increments
    *paid vacation days – after 1 year, 10 per year, and no increase until 15 years (goes to 15)
    *butts in seat mentality, even though it’s not customer facing and work needs to be done but not at a particular time
    *no COLA and extremely few/small merit increases, starting pay around $14/hour from what I can determine

    Needless to say, we don’t get many applicants. We’ve tried to point out that this is sort of abysmal, but management (who are exempt and have a lot more time off with much better pay) chooses not to see this.

    So, opinions on the benefits – what do you think?

    2. CatCat*

      Only 5 sick days, 6 holidays, and no vacation until you get to a year (and at that point, it’s kind of the most basic level of vacation leave). Yeah, doesn’t look great to me on top of expensive insurance for folks with families and no chance to really earn decent raises. No wonder the place attracts few applicants. I imagine it has a retention issue as well.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Any one or two of those would be manageable, if the others were increased/improved to compensate. All of them together sound like the bare minimum where the company can probably still hire but probably not retain for more than a year or two.

      Also, going a year before earning any paid vacation may be a thing, but it’s a really awful thing. Going 15 years before bumping up to 3 weeks? Is ridiculous. And basically no raises? I’m surprised anyone stays any longer than they need to after finding that out.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Ugh, one of my first jobs had that policy, only it was even worse – you accrued 1 vacation day per month, but you didn’t have access to them until the following July 1 (start of the fiscal year). So if, like me, you started working for them in the fall you would have zero vacation days until July 1 of the following year, at which point you would only have the pro-rated amount of days that you earned in the year prior. In effect, you wouldn’t have access to the full amount of promised vacation days until your second work anniversary!

        To make it worse, they explained it horribly to new staff so I ran out of vacation days within the first six months of having access to PTO because they didn’t clarify that your days were prorated. Just thinking about it makes my blood boil!

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I don’t think I’d consider those benefits at all. That’s incredibly stingy on all types of time off, and the butts-in-seats mentality suggests you wouldn’t be allowed to flex your hours to avoid using your time off (ie, working 9 hours Mon. – Thurs., then taking off after 4 hours on Fri.)

      Without knowing where you’re located or what type of job it is, I have no idea if $14/hour is reasonable for the work or not.

    5. Michelle*

      You only get to take your sick days in 1/2 day increments? Or you have to take at least a 1/2 day?

      The benefits are not great and the butts in seat mentality are not going to help any. It’s amazing the management thinks this is sufficient. Of course, there are companies where managers/management are so far removed from the reality that they think people should be beating down the doors.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      The labor market is tight, and those benefits suck, the best candidates are not going to accept a job with your company unless your salary is top end.

      – I have never worked anyplace that didn’t offer vacation the first year. Prorated, sure, but not *none*.
      – Health insurance isn’t too bad if there’s a low deductible, that’s about what my employer’s platinum plan costs ($300 deductible, no annual / lifetime limits, covers maternity, IVF, transitioning, dental, vision)
      – No COLA and little merit is… wow. If I took a job there out of desperation, I’d leave within a couple of years, before my salary got too out of line with the market.

    7. Fikly*

      So, no vacation for a year, and only five sick days? You won’t get anyone with families, or anyone with health issues, especially when you add in the cost of health insurance.

      Which is to say, you are limiting your applicant field tremendously.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Am I the only one who suspects the low number of sick days is precisely to discourage sick people from applying…precisely to keep health insurance costs low (at least for management/owners)?

        Also, am I the only one who suspects this company doesn’t want employees with families much less kids (eg, so said employees can go halfway around the world for weeks at the drop of a hat)?

      1. Opinions Please*

        Yes, thank you!! People have asked me what the starting pay is, how much vacation, etc. when they’re looking for work. One person opted to stay as a cashier at a dollar store rather than apply! I’m really lucky, as a holdover from the previous business (we were purchased by this stingy company), my vacation time is better, and I only have myself to think about for insurance. And I would never recommend the company to anyone I know. For reference, rural area, sort of impoverished, and lower wages are pretty standard here.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          It may have been standard, but they’re still struggling to get applicants. It is possible that standards have risen in your area to something higher than this offering.

    9. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Paid holidays – ok
      Paid sick – so you can only get sick one week a year? How generous /s
      Paid vacation – zero for the first year, then 10 days for 15 years? Hah. I get 19 days per year, prorated the first first.
      No flexibility – how funny.
      Crappy pay – why are you still there?

      Seriously, why are you still there?

  149. Swagged and Confused*

    Long time reader but first-time commenter. Would appreciate any input! TIA
    I left a company 6 months ago and to say I disliked it is an understatement. I was in a creative role and it was 100% remote. Recently, they’ve begun sending me company-branded items in the mail without a note or anything. These aren’t products I designed– in fact, a large reason I left is because they often refused my input and when I tried to discuss it, my manager would say “I don’t have time for you, I have other people to manage. You’re not the only one I’m managing.” or worse “What do you know?”
    I’m not sure what to do with these promotional items. Should I “return to sender,” contact them about it (I never plan on going back and I’m happily in another industry now so I’d rather avoid this), or just ignore it and yay free gym clothes?

    2. knitter*

      As the owner of some former company swag, it is like an albatross. One item has my name embroidered along with the company so I don’t want to donate it. But every time I see the items, I have very negative flashbacks (I couldn’t even drive by the location for a year even though it would have shortened my commute). And I don’t want to throw the items away because I aspire to a low/zero waste lifestyle. So I’ve backed myself into a mental corner.

      +1 for returning the items.

      1. Swagged and Confused*

        Thank you so much for sharing this because I am the same way. Seeing the logo of a company I used to work for in the past used to give me bad flashbacks (or triggers), so I pretty much had to get rid of the items because they were all personalized, too.
        I’m going to donate these (unbranded) items!

    3. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      If the item is particularly good & useful, like you would totally love to have something like this if it came from Competitor Company, and you just hate having the logo on it, one option is to remove or cover up the logo. Otherwise just donate it.

  150. Halp*

    Anyone have tips for surviving my first all-day academic interview? I’ve got a couple more days to prepare….I’m in a good place with researching/knowing who I’m talking to, etc., but I’m concerned about the timing of the schedule itself because there’s literally no “walking time” between back to back 30 min. interview panels, from 9am-8pm. How do I give a good first impression 8 times in a row with 20-25 minutes actual talking time per group? Thanks!

    1. Veronica Mars*

      Granola bars in your purse for eating rapidly in bathroom stalls. Major key.

      But otherwise, yes, its going to be exhausting, and a little tough to remember what you’ve said to this group vs other groups. So taking notes on what you talked about is helpful. Otherwise its easy to forget that this new group wasn’t the one who has heard the Story About The Frogs.

  151. WorkingGirl*

    Ugh. On of our PT assistants (she’s here Tues and Fri) just heated up her lunch…. she microwaved salmon and now the whole place reeks! (Small office.) What can I do?! Is it okay to say something ti her… like “hey, I’m not sure if you realize, but when you microwave fish, the smell is really strong – not just in the kitchen but the whole office, and it sticks around awhile.” I’m not trying to police what anyone else is eating, but this is gross. I don’t want to spend all day smelling your reheated seafood.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      When i screwed up and heated brussels sprouts I noticed the aroma along with everyone else so I was suitably ashamed. And had the resources – fans, open windows, no visitors – to try to erase it.

      I wonder if there’s a poopourri type thing for microwaves/kitchens

      1. WorkingGirl*

        I ended up IMing her asking her to open the windows next time. I like the idea of potpourri. I may bring some, or even just an air freshener, next week.

        1. WellRed*

          Also ask her to clean out the microwave to minimize it smelling every time some hapless soul comes along in her wake to innocently heat up their foot. I had to do this last week. Bowl of water with vinegar (or lemon juice), heat up for two minutes, let it sit closed all nice and steamy for several more minutes, and then wipe down the inside.

          2. Annony*

            My dad used to cook salmon in the microwave a lot (really gross). We found slicing up a lemon and microwaving it with water and then wiping out the microwave was the best way to go. Vinegar works, but then the kitchen smells like vinegar. If you just want to mask the smell, microwaving coffee grounds can work.

        2. Not All*

          no no no no please nooooooooooooo

          Scented sprays/air fresheners are the WORST. The chemical fragrance is far more likely to trigger migraines, headaches, asthma, you-name-the-issue than just an unpleasant ‘natural’ smell.

          If you *must* use something, get something like Zero Odor which is completely unscented itself (also, works really well).

    2. Amethystmoon*

      People should just bring seafood salad to work if they’re going to eat fish. But don’t microwave it.

  152. Anon-a-nanny*

    Any ideas as to a secondary career / career switch for someone who has been a nanny the last 10 years? I’m not sure what I might like to do next or even sure where to look to figure it out.

    I’ve been a nanny since I graduated from college. I’m now in my early 30s and am feeling very done with cleaning up after other people and the Long (long long) hours that come with the industry.

    I am very good at scheduling, juggling multiple schedules that might change at the drop of a hat. I’m a good communicator, calm
    And collected, good at thinking on my feet, excellent problem solver. I have a Bsc and am fairly proficient with computers/ technology.
    Any thoughts from the hive mind?

    1. Veronica Mars*

      Sounds like great admin / exec assistant qualifications. That’s a good position to sit back, learn professional norms, and plot the next move from. A lot of the exec assistants at our companies go on to have very high ranking management positions.

    2. humans are weird*

      If you want to work with computers/technology, all of those qualities you list are good to have for computer support people. That doesn’t have to mean call center! If I were hiring someone for a deskside support tech position at the uni I work for, I would absolutely consider someone who didn’t have formal tech experience – but who did have 10 years of work experience, demonstrated interest in and proficiency with computers, and could show they learn quickly. And who could build relationships with clients.

    3. Viette*

      I second exec assistant or admin assistant! You sound like you have the baseline qualifications and a ton of transferable skills. It also flips you into the office and gives you that opening. If you go for that, I’d strongly recommend mining your contacts of people you’ve nannied for as possible references/network to jobs. Child care is undervalued and under-respected, so you may need a hand getting your foot in the door to the first position you take, and the people you’ve worked with are often the kind of high-powered people who know people who need good assistants.

      A way less obvious option would be something like a foreman or other (machine) shop manager position. Definitely might get into that via being the admin assistant as well, but you don’t have to plant yourself in a white-collar office just to get to use your scheduling and interpersonal skills.

    4. Avasarala*

      Event management, some kind of planning/coordinating role. Other kinds of project management, I know someone who writes and manages proposals. Also of course exec/admin assistant.

  153. Mediamaven*

    We have a small office of all women. Today I went to use the toilet and someone has dropped a deuce and soiled the entire seat. I had to clean it. I don’t want to clean up other people’s BMs. I’m sick to my stomach. This has happened more than once and I have tried sending numerous emails, some gentle, some more stern, and nothing seems to work. Any suggestions? One of these days someone will figure out who is doing it because there are so few of us, and then it’s going to have to get uncomfortable. I can’t believe we are all professional ladies.

        1. Blarg*

          Actually, compliments to you for not saying “I’m the boss and I’m delegating to an underling.”

          Situation is super gross and I’m sure makes it weird to sit in meetings or walk by offices and wonder who the culprit is.

          But for the non-poopers, they have a good boss who doesn’t make them do the actual dirty work.

          1. valentine*

            Actually, compliments to you for not saying “I’m the boss and I’m delegating to an underling.”
            Yes. Could this be part of the allure, though? Because announcing that everyone has to take turns cleaning it might put a stop to it. I mean, it’s possible someone can’t help staining it and also is unable to clean it, but I would have discussed this with my doctor and come up with a solution, even if I had to disclose that, rather than shift the burden.

            I would hire two temps as bathroom monitors. They have no reason to cover for anyone and it’s literally their job not to.

      3. Mediamaven*

        Trust me, I was have tempted to run into the office screaming bloody murder that the offender was on notice and needed to clean it, but I don’t think Allison would’ve recommended that strategy.

        1. WellRed*

          There was a letter a while back where someone was really intentionally grossing up the bathroom and everyone knew who it was. I believe a big boss sent out a raging email about how anyone that did such a thing must be have serious problems and need help.and would be summarily embarrased publicly and then fired. Etc. (I’m paraphrasing from memory, but you get the gist). Frankly, in that case, I thought it was beautiful.
          Since it keeps happening, and the office is so small, I think you do need to say something, whether it’s as a group or you speak to everyone individually. Not accusing anyone, but just saying it needs to not happen or there Will Be Consequences and honestly, I’d consider firing for this.

      1. Mediamaven*

        Frankly because I expect this kind of grossness from a teenage boy not adult women. I’m a woman too. It’s not meant to gender shame.

        1. Fikly*

          Well, there are no teens of any gender working in your office, I’m guessing. I still don’t see how gender is relevant.

          It’s generally not helpful to reinforce a double standard. As long as people continue to not expect the same standard from two groups, there’s no reason to behave better.

          Being a woman does not mean your behavior toward other women cannot be problematic, unfortunately. Internaliezed societal norms and all that.

          1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

            Hear, hear.

            Also, lived experience (even if only episodic): I helped my father (his alarm system business) wire a pub that was closed during the day. I did some work in the women’s room…filthy in every sense of the term.

    3. JustMyImagination*

      If there’s another toilet in the building or next door you can use, you could try posting “out of order” on your own toilet for the remainder of the day. The angry and inconvenienced mob may be enough to quietly shame the messy pooper into cleaning up after themselves.

    5. Juneybug*

      Few ideas/suggestions –
      1. I am going to assume you have cleaning supplies in the bathroom that are handy for “accidents”. If not, get those ASAP.
      2. If you already have supplies handy, you might fake a bad “stomach day” and “need” to use the bathroom every time after someone uses it. That might flush out the offender (pun intended).
      3. Have a serious chat with everyone in a meeting where you explain folks might have digestive issues but they need to clean up after themselves.
      4. Buy seat covers.
      5. Close the bathroom and place an a portable potty outside.

      1. WellRed*

        Lock the bathroom and make people ask for a key. Juvenile and insulting but would solve the problem I bet.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          You can even use a log of who had the key when. Should narrow it right down, since presumably the next user would report the grossness.

          Definitely make sure there are supplies to make it reasonable for the person leaving the mess to clean it up themselves, though. It’s possible they can’t help making a mess in the first place for some reason, but it’s completely reasonable to expect them to clean up the mess rather than leave it for the next person.

        2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Lock the bathroom and make people ask for a key. Juvenile and insulting but would solve the problem I bet.

          Might create another one, depending on how urgent some people’s bathroom needs are.

          Sometimes, when you gotta go, you gotta go now.

  154. Retail not Retail*

    A few weeks ago i posted about how to dress for a mass job fair in the cold. The only issue I had was as we were getting in the elevator (ah warmth) I realized I still had my rainbow sunglasses on.

    I got the job! I don’t know when it starts – I okayed the background check and do the drug test Monday. Side note – my current job’s drug test could be done throughout the county. This one is far from where i will work, where i currently work, and where i live. Bah humbug.

    It took so long to hear back I was worried it was because I have a steady work schedule (you’re hiring part time seasonal) and any biases they were unaware of. I’m a woman, I don’t look fit in dressy clothes, and while I’m nowhere near ageism concerns, the previous year’s team just finished undergrad so won’t be coming back.

    But it is the exact same work I do all day anyway! And it’s yet more tourism – my degree is in historic preservation/cultural resource management so if you look really sideways at my current job and my soon to be second one, you can see a connection. “It’s the… built…. environment.”

  155. Returning to school in your 40s*

    I’d really like to talk through this with someone…..I turned 40 this year. I’ve been mainly a sahm for the past 15 years, so limited work history (mainly part-time retail). I’m at the point where I’d like to work full time, but not as a cashier or retail manager. While I do already have a liberal arts BA, I think I’d like to return to school and get a degree in accounting. I’m considering enrolling in WGU’s accounting BS. Does anyone have any feedback on this program? (I’ve done some research online already, but I’ve been lurking here so long I feel I can trust most of you here for sound advice!) I’m also concerned about my job prospects after. Never thought I’d say this, but I’m worried I’ll be forever passed over for fresh, 20-something grads who went through a traditional program and have internship experience. I also do not know, yet, if I’d like to ultimately pursue the CPA. I do know that the BS at WGU won’t be sufficient to sit the exam and I’d have to continue on with their MAcc program if I want to be CPA eligible.
    Part of me also thinks I should just get a bookkeeping cert from the local cc, or just suck it up and deal with being a cashier for all eternity.
    Any advice? Or just reassurance?

    1. De Minimis*

      I went back to school for a career change in my mid-30s and after a lot of ups and downs finally found my place working as an accountant in nonprofit/government [about to make a move back to a federal agency which is probably where I’ll finish up my career] I’m a licensed CPA, though it’s more something I maintain and I don’t really practice as a part of my job.

      I would look at getting a graduate degree in accounting instead of a second bachelor’s. That’s what I did, and I had an unrelated undergrad degree [English]. I had to take an extra year of pre-requisites but that was the only extra hoop I had to jump through. I’ve been out of school over a decade so there are probably more options now.

      The main difficulty with online programs is you probably won’t have the same recruiting exposure as with brick and mortar programs, though it wouldn’t be an issue with some employers. Some of it depends on what you want to do. You’ll need some kind of job where you work with or for a licensed CPA if you want to get a CPA license. Public accounting is often how people do that, but it’s not necessarily the only way.

      The bookkeeping cert would be an entryway into the lower level jobs, but you might get stuck doing that.

      I’m sure there’s a program out there that will be right for you. Good luck!

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Maybe start with the bookkeeper cert, and see where that leads you?

      OTOH: A Forbes contributor says good things about WGU. I’m generally deeply skeptical about on-line only, but it doesn’t read like an ad or puff piece. Link in the next comment.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Oh RATS – I missed the tag at the top, that is an advertisement, take it with a big grain of salt, and double check their graduation rates.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        If you like numbers (adding / subtracting) and can afford the time / tuition, get the accounting / bookkeeping. It will pay for itself quickly relative to retail.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t get a bookkeeping certification, it’s essentially worthless to most people.

      What you should do is start with your associates in accounting. That will get you in doors easier, certifications outside of being a CPA are pretty much a joke in my experience. Nobody cares if you’re a “certified” bookkeeper. They either want experience or a 2 year. Then you can work and get your feet wet while completing the education and your CPA.

      I worked myself up without education from an assistant to a financial manager and assistant bookkeeper role, to full cycle bookkeeping and the more of a staff accountant roles. You can do it but if you’re able to get that associates please do that.

      You shouldn’t be passed up for younger folks. This isn’t IT. Accounting duncur about age a lot of the times, we’re all old AF at heart in ways ;)

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My husband and I both just finished degrees through WGU in December. Mine was in HIM because, even though I’ve been in the career field for 15 years and already had a different health care degree, the actual literal exact degree of a BS in HIM was required to be eligible to sit for a particular certification exam; his was a BS in business administration because he wanted a degree before his 40th birthday (in March).

      We both felt that they were more of a “I need this degree to check a box” than “I actually learned a bunch of useful and applicable information” programs, for what it’s worth. It wasn’t a *bad* experience, but I at least would have definitely had a much harder time if I didn’t already know what I was doing. On the other hand, WGU being a self-paced program let me do it in half the time they expected, so that was nice (and saved me/my org a good chunk of change).

      So if you already have a background in accounting and just need the paperwork, sure, but if you’re looking for a program to lead you from a complete beginner, I would maybe look elsewhere, like if a brick-and-mortar state school around you (or even a community college) has an accounting program to start with.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I don’t know anything about WGU, but I am leery of ALL online-only programs. Too many of them have been bad, so do your homework. You’re going to have to convince people like me that it’s legit, so make sure it is.

  156. NGL*

    Had to have a tough convo with my boss today. Some of our departments are shrinking the number of teapots they produce. I market very specific teapots, some of which are being affected by these changes. I raised it to my boss, flagging that while I want to be a well-rounded marketer, I was concerned to see the teapots I was hired to work on diminishing. She agreed that it was worth being concerned about, but from where she was sitting *my job* wasn’t in danger. She loves me, the grand boss loves me and praises me all the time (apparently – I don’t hear this directly from her!). Obviously if I don’t like the changes in the product that’s something I have to think about for my own career, but it’s not like my job is going to be ripped out from under me just because production needs are changing. So that was a HUGE relief.

    1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      She agreed that it was worth being concerned about, but from where she was sitting *my job* wasn’t in danger.

      I hope for your sake your boss (1) truly knows the situation and (2) is telling you the truth.

  157. Me--riding on hope and waiting to be bucked off*

    So, the fancy downtown workplace I interviewed with previously that rejected me via phone (bleah) may have had concerns about me being overqualified. It was an entry level admin position, lots of filing and data entry. Plus, my presentation in that interview wasn’t the best (nerves!).

    But they posted a higher level marketing coordinator position, a bit closer to my skills and experience. Not in marketing; I don’t really have that exactly, but there’s a lot of support stuff I could totally do. I applied on Tuesday, with one of my better cover letters, if I can brag on myself a little, heh. The HR person called me the following day and I have another interview next Wednesday.

    She hasn’t sent the confirmation email yet (so of course my jerkbrain is very active right now) but 1] I caught her on her way out the door when I called her back, and 2] the interview isn’t until next week. I’m going to prep hard and do better this time.

    If they don’t hire me, I’m not going to bother applying there again. So far with them I’ve been called and asked if I would be interested in a position I couldn’t have done, interviewed for one I didn’t get, and a rejection now would be the last straw. There was a company in OldCity that did this to me — I interviewed twice, was only offered a temp role right as I accepted OldJob, and was rejected for a copy editor position I would have rocked at. I put them in the rear view mirror.

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      I wouldn’t write them off! It’s perfectly reasonable to not be a great fit for some jobs at an organization (or even be great-but-not-the-top-candidate) and be perfect for another role. It doesn’t sound like they’ve done anything to suggest that they would be a bad employer — this is just the normal vagaries of a job search.

      1. Colette*

        Agreed. If they’re hiring for one position and you come in a close second, that doesn’t mean you couldn’t be a great employee at that company – it just means that for some reason, they chose someone else that time. With a different pool (or even a different interview) it could have been you.

      2. Me--riding on hope and waiting to be bucked off*

        The one I wrote off is in OldCity. Plus, a friend’s husband worked there and said they were super rigid; that was after I had already applied.

        I don’t have time to keep pining over someone who isn’t going to hire me. I vowed I wouldn’t do that with partners; I don’t want to do it for a workplace either, and this will be the third time I’ve talked to them.

    2. RagingADHD*

      If they are a large company, the fact that you have been considered for multiple positions usually means that they like you and are trying to find the right fit so they can hire you. Especially since it sounds like they proactively approached you for one of those jobs (am I reading that right?)

      It would be counterproductive to write them off unless you land something else in the meantime.

      1. Me--riding on hope and waiting to be bucked off*

        Kind of; I had applied for an assistant position and they called me about a different one. But it had a lot of accounting, which I can’t do, so I had to decline. This was while I was still in OldCity. The most recent interview after I applied again was in person (I’ve since moved to their city).

        I might get it; you never know. But I can’t afford to loiter around waiting for something else to come up if I don’t. It’s a law firm and there aren’t a ton of jobs I’m qualified for. I need to find something soon even if I leave it later. Still being stuck with nothing after uprooting my entire life is starting to mess with my mental health.

  158. Sleepy*

    How to you manage fairly allocating work to someone who has a pretty specific skillset that comes into play seasonally?

    I’ve been managing some employees for an interim period (my replacement is hired and starting soon) and it’s left me puzzled as to how to best manage one of the workers, Bob. Bob has specific strengths (think people skills, salesmanship, external relations, etc) that in our seasonally driven work aren’t relevant all the time, but at specific times become incredibly important. He’s a full-time exempt employee, and during about half the year, he gets away with not working a full forty hours a week because he just doesn’t have enough to do (probably during this time he works 30-35 hours per week). This is a time of the year when we’re focused more on internal office work and he just doesn’t do well managing complex, independent projects that require a lot of planning. He doesn’t have great computer skills, for example, so for anything requiring technology, it’s easier to do it myself than ask him to do it.

    I can given him more one-off tasks, but it’s hard for me to assign him complex tasks that takes a lot of planning and follow-through. During his “on” season, he’s a very valuable employee; he’s even the face of our company to some of our most important partners. It just feels weird and unfair to have him working less than full time yet enjoying full-time benefits for about half the year because I (and managers before me) don’t feel we can trust him with more administrative tasks.

    Suggestions on how to handle this?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      During the time of year he is fully utilized, is he only banking 40hrs? Or is he pulling 45-50 hour weeks during those peak times?

      If he’s pulling down more than 40 hours, I’d encourage you to look at this as evening out and not worry so much about him having only 30-35 hours.

      And if he’s not strong in other ways, it’s really going to just be beneficial to you to accept it. Keep giving him one offs and keep in mind Bob is available for anything that can be shuffled his way. But really, unless you want to push him too hard given his lack of strengths, you risk losing him completely. He’s settled into a routine and when someone starts nitpicking at their schedule that’s been fine up until now, you risk sending him into launch and leave mode.

      1. Sleepy*

        Yeah, he does work overtime when he’s on, but in the past time he’s asked for some comp time for it. I think if management just stands firm on the fact that there shouldn’t be comp time when he’s working a light schedule the rest of the year, I’d feel better about it.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah so he’s getting extra comp time this way. I see what your issue is, I would feel the same way as you!

          However, I don’t think you have much room to work here if you aren’t going to have much power in the situation, given that the company has already caved and given him comp time to use during that busy season.

          This is also what exemption means in the scheme of things. You get those extra hours some times, you get the short end of the stick other times.

    2. Havarti*

      Could he handle really basic stuff? Like filing or basic data entry? I mean, I’d hate to give him menial tasks but tracking if printers have paper/toner and what office supplies need to be ordered are things that do still need to happen in an office. If he can’t manage a project, can he be made a helper for someone else and do the fetching? Otherwise, you may have to think about making him a seasonal contractor or something. Letting him not work full time while reaping the benefits of it is not a good look (not touching the legal aspect as that is not my area of expertise). Not to mention it will likely cause resentment in your other employees.

      1. Havarti*

        Though as The Man, Becky Lynch points out, if he’s working OT during the busy period, maybe it does even out in the end.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Another thought…do you offer training and professional development??

      This time of year would be spot on for getting him into classes to get those computer skills up to a better level. Instead of necessarily putting him to “work”, can you start assisting him to work towards eventually being less of a bump on the log during the down time?

      I don’t like the menial task option, that’s going to burn him. He’s not an admin so he shouldn’t be treated like one in the off season, a lot of us here would be angry if that was tossed at us because we’re hired to do something then we get some sort of weird filler tasks at times because we’re going into “If you have time to lean, you have time to clean” POV.

      1. Viette*

        This is what I came here to say. Totally agree, and also suggest talking to Bob about professional development he might be interested in. Best case scenario is, he has an interest in learning skills for something that would fill a need during downtime, and at the very least he could learn skills during downtime that make him even better at his job during his peak season.

      2. Havarti*

        Sleepy can ask him what he wants to do and see what he says. I offered it only as a possibility because Sleepy says he can’t do much else. Sometimes during slow times, we do things that are below our pay grades at my job. If Bob is willing to learn new stuff then fantastic! But if he’s not interested because he enjoys his reduced hours or whatever, then what? Given his lack of tech-savvy and his amazing salesman skills, he’s probably an older guy. No, he’s probably not going to want to order supplies but he may not want to go to trainings either. If he’s anything like some of my coworkers, he’ll say he doesn’t need more training or professional development.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Well then it will boil down to what route you want to take.

          You either cultivate and hold a culture of “do anything you’re asked, despite if it’s below your paygrade or in your job description” or you just sit back and deal with the fact you need him for less than a full year.

          In the end really it’s “pick your battles”, do you want Bob or not? Lots of very talented workers will not stand for the kind of setup you’re talking about. I’m not one of them but they exist and AAM has proven that even more to me!

          it’s all about risk and reward in the end. You just have to understand the consequences and the consequences may be that Bob leaves and then you get to replace him.

          Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Typical manager stuff.

          1. Havarti*

            I’m not trying to pick a fight with you if that’s what you took away from my reply. My apologies if I didn’t clearly express myself.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I’m not fighting, just discussing the situation and possible outcomes, I’m sorry if it comes across differently.

      3. Sleepy*

        I like the idea of professional development, especially in computer skills. I think he’d be open to it as he’s expressed an interest in the past but never followed through. Reflecting on why that is, he did have a busier schedule year-round in the past so I think part of what’s hard is that his excessive downtime kind of snuck up on us. As you’ve correctly guessed, he’s an older guy, but I think he is open to learning. His computer skills have definitely increased since I started working with him anyway.

        1. WellRed*

          He might be hard to replace, since he sounds like he’s filling an odd role at your org. I’m hoping you can find a useful solution. However I also wonder is he’s classified correctly as exempt?

          1. valentine*

            Really consider whether he’s worth it as-is.

            I wouldn’t mess with his comp time. It helps him do the longer days and that’s gold, platinum? Removing it will look like punishment or pettiness.

            But you can send him for training or delegate his computer stuff. You shouldn’t do it yourself.

  159. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    Question: Is it appropriate to ask a candidate who turned down a job offer at your company to connect on LinkedIn? Or would it be weird, and therefore something to avoid?

    Details: We made an offer to an excellent candidate recently. Being an excellent candidate, she had other offers and accepted one of them, and declined ours. No hard feelings, everyone in our department is well aware that it’s a candidate’s market for software developers in our area. I would very much like to stay in touch with her on a casual, professional level, so LinkedIn would be the appropriate platform. But I don’t know if it would be weird for her or not. I am a senior team member (not the hiring manager), but I did lead the initial technical phone screen and was part of the technical panel interview. I have no idea if that affects the weirdness level at all.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think this is something that Linkedin is made for. It’s to keep these kind of contacts, what if she’s looking later? She only turned it down because she got multiple offers, so she may be looking again in the future, so I think she’d probably be happy to still have contact at the company on some professional level!

      1. Colette*

        I agree. And in this case, I also think that you should explain why you’re keeping in touch and not just rely on the generic LinkedIn message (e.g. “I enjoyed talking with you. Best of luck in your new role. I hope we can work together in the future.”

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          Oh, I would absolutely use a custom message – the generic message (especially from strangers or near-strangers) is a huge turn off to me, and I’m not willing to subject a potential contact to it.

  160. Em from CT*

    I’ve got an employee who’s in the habit of sending me short, one- or two-line emails once or twice a week that have nothing to do with work. Think “It’s rainy out–hope you’ve got your boots on!” or “Fish tacos for lunch… TGIF!”

    This drives me bonkers. On the one hand, it’s pretty harmless and easily ignorable; on the other hand, my inbox is overflowing, and this is really out of step with our office culture, which is generally friendly but very professional.

    Is it worth saying something? It’s certainly easy to just let it slide because it’s not a big deal, but on the other hand this guy is already somewhat of a problematic employee; he’s only been my subordinate since January and I’ve already had to tell him in no uncertain terms that he needs to leave pranks outside the office.

    1. Havarti*

      Are they directly to you or a group email? A light reply to one of the emails with “Hey man, I get way too many emails as it is so please stop emailing me these/remove me from the list. Thanks!” should hopefully resolve it. If not, then a serious chat next. While it can be a small thing, he still needs to understand you don’t want to be receiving these kinds of non-work emails.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        ^this x 1000

        Sounds like a BEC situation, which does suck…. but the other problems (pranks in the office) need to be addressed first. Perhaps a discussion with him about the office culture would wrap in nicely between some of those issues and this emailing issue?

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          I understand how people can easily get annoyed at so many petty emails coming in.

          But…what Lucette Kensack and Environmental Compliance said. Especially BEC.

          Maybe a compromise: He can send his brief friendly greetings via IM, which doesn’t clog up your Inbox.

    4. Reliquary*

      I see no real issue with asking him to stop. Just tell him you’d like to keep your email exchanges to work-related matters.

  161. Wing Leader*

    I’m a little late to the party, but in case someone is still hanging around, I’m asking this on behalf of a friend. How do you respond to someone who says it’s okay to make rude comments about you because “it’s true?” For context, my friend *Katie just went back to work after having a baby. She said she felt really pretty because she got to put her nice clothes on, wear makeup, and style her hair (which is difficult to do with a newborn, so she’d been feeling frumpy). Then she went to work and had this exchange with a coworker.

    Katie: Good morning!
    Coworker: Oh wow! You look so tired!
    Katie: Oh. Gee, thanks.
    Coworker: Well, it’s true, honey. I’m only telling you the truth.
    Katie: Okay

    And then she felt like crap for the rest of the day and her “I feel pretty” mood was shattered. Is there a better way to respond to this type of thing?

    1. Marny*

      I think I’d reply with, “Sometimes it’s better to be kind than it is to be honest. So let’s try doing that next time, thanks.”

    2. Fikly*

      Ask them why it’s ok to hurt people by telling them something they haven’t even asked to know about.

      But honestly, this sounds like the type of person who will excuse terrible behavior by saying “Well, it’s just the way I am,” as if free will isn’t a thing.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Options:
      “Just because you can say something doesn’t mean you should.”
      “Wow, that was rude and unkind”
      “And you’re thoughtless and cruel. Well, it’s true honey. I’m only telling you the truth.”
      “And you’re extra nasty/bitchy/mean today”

      And more importantly, that coworker isn’t a friend. So some distance is perfectly appropriate. There are consequences to being like that, she’s earned them.

    4. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      It’s really tough to respond to out-and-out rudeness (which that absolutely was) in the moment, because it can be so entirely unexpected.

      In all honesty, I think a very flat “Okay” and refusal to engage further is not a bad response at all. It doesn’t help Katie’s mood, but people who tend to be this way, in my experience, aren’t terribly open to feedback. “Why would you say that?” or “How rude” are not going to dissuade them.

    5. nep*

      Unpopular viewpoint here, I’m sure–and lord knows I’m still working on this myself. But I think it’s worth thinking about how much our mood and overall state of mind/spirit depend on what people say/think about us.
      Granted, Coworker’s statement was uncouth at best. But does it hold so much importance that it should shoot someone down? (And as far as we know, Coworker was feeling shitty about her?self and hated that Katie looked so nice, and had to say that for her own comfort.)

      1. Fikly*

        Why is it ok to say something hurtful to make yourself feel better?

        If you need to hear that thought, say it in your head only.

        1. nep*

          I wholeheartedly agree, of course.
          I meant that sometimes people project and lash out when they’re feeling shitty about something or about themselves. Not saying it’s right.
          I’m not blaming the Katies in this kind of scenario at all. And I get that it can deflate one’s sense of self. I just often ponder why our sense of self depends so much on the opinions of others, and I expressed some thoughts along those lines.

          1. Orange Knight to Green Five*

            Do you think that expressing those thoughts here and now, in this context, is helpful or kind?

            I often ponder why some people feel the need to express every little thing they think of, regardless of whether it’s actually appropriate to to do.

            1. nep*

              I hear you. Didn’t seek to offend. It’s something I really puzzle over so the post sparked me to write something. But I get that the point was about how delicate a state this person was in given the circumstances; my thoughts went one way, largely because of my own battle I’m sure.

          2. Fikly*

            Oh, almost all the time when people hurt other people it’s about them, not the person.

            But that doesn’t excuse the behavior. It’s called self-control.

            I think there may be something in people thinking other people’s behavior is largely about them (rather than the other person) and also putting too much stock on what that other person says about them. Realizing that it almost always has nothing to do with you is immensely freeing.

      3. RagingADHD*

        Coworker didn’t *have* to say that for their own comfort.

        Coworker *chose* to say that for whatever selfish reason – to hurt Katie, to indulge a habit of concern-trolling, to serve their self-perceived identity as a “straight – talker,” whatever. Selfish, rude, and hurtful.

        The most charitable assumption would be that co-worker has a faulty mouth filter and blurts things out without thinking. In which case they should apologize for being rude and try to work on it. Even those of us with biologically weak filters can improve, and can apologize.

    6. WellRed*

      Reminds me of people who say something vaguely or outrightly racist/sexist/homophobic and then get all big eyed and shruggy and saying, “Whaaaaat?? I didn’t mean anything by it!” blink blink blink

      Also, love Marny’s response.

    7. Dasein9*

      That co-worker is a jerk. I’d suggest bouncing it right back with a comment like, “What an unkind thing to say!” but in a really chipper voice. (Like Disney bluebird chipper.)

      I mean, it is the truth.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Oh, does that mean it’s okay for me to tell you my honest opinion about YOU, coworker?”

    9. Environmental Compliance*

      The time I was the most proud of myself for responding back to something like that, I asked if they’d ever seen the movie Bambi. Oh, you must have forgotten what Thumper said – “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say nothin’ at all.”

      *mostly proud tbh because I didn’t turn around and tell them that “and truthfully, you’re being a bitch” which while sincere felt unprofessional and I was trying to behave myself that day

    10. RagingADHD*

      “Well, that was unhelpful.”

      or “That wasn’t called for.”

      or “I didn’t really need that.”

      But the thing is, if Katie is feeling vulnerable postpartum (as is common,) just ending the interaction wit “okay” may be the best option for her.

      As a bystander, it is totally okay for you to tell coworker, “that was rude and uncalled for,” or “actually, nobody needs your input on how they look.”

    11. AdAgencyChick*

      “Why would you say such a thing?” (If she comes back with “Because it’s true,” then “No, I mean why would you say that OUT LOUD?”)

      Or: “Did you just say that OUT LOUD? You must be so embarrassed!”

    12. CM*

      We know, because we have the friend’s POV, that she wasn’t feeling tired and was actually feeling pretty good. But, if her coworker didn’t know what, and knew that she was super busy and not sleeping because she had a new baby, remarking on how tired she looked — or commiserating about how tired she was — probably didn’t feel like a mean thing to do or might have even seemed friendly. Sometimes we get hurt even if nobody did anything wrong.

      If it really bothered the friend, though, I think the best thing would be to say something like, “I’m self-conscious about how I look lately, and it kind of hurt my feelings when you said that. Maybe for now, could you just not comment on how I look?”

      If it’s already a hostile relationship for other reasons, saying “Not looking for feedback on my appearance,” can work, too.

      1. valentine*

        probably didn’t feel like a mean thing to do or might have even seemed friendly.
        Nah, she knew what she was doing, because the response is hostile:
        Well, it’s true, honey. I’m only telling you the truth.
        Who cares if it’s true? Katie did not say, “Thank you, O beacon of truth! My feelings are hurt, but our path is ever brighter for your bravery this day!”

        I would assume she’s jealous and I must look even better than I feel. Detaching is going to help Katie, both in general and as a parent.

    13. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Check out Kathleen Kelley Reardon’s Comebacks At Work. It gives you both actual comebacks to use and also techniques to generate your own and make them more effective.

      In fact, I’ve communicated much better since studying Dr. Reardon’s entire set of works.

  162. Wilde87*

    Has anyone successfully negotiated additional vacation time during the job offer stage? Alison has great advice about negotiating salary, but I’m not certain if/how to apply it in other areas.

    1. I edit everything*

      I have. It was very easy, mostly I think because they knew I was taking a salary cut to work there (part of moving from a high COL area to a low one, and moving into a very small company that was struggling). So for the company, it was a useful swap, vacation for cash, so they were quick to agree.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      I have! It was pretty straightforward. I said something like “I’m currently at X vacation and I’m wondering if you can match it?” and then stopped talking. Hiring Manager said would check with HR. Next day they said no problem.
      That said, I have known some companies that are very strict about PTO and will not negotiate it at all, but in that case they’d just tell you that right away and not necessarily hold it against you for asking. In my experience, a lot of times it’s the CEO or some higher ups who set that policy and the HR people know its not especially competitive, so they’ll give you the No per protocol but they’re not going to think you’re unreasonable for asking.

  163. Count Boochie Flagrante*

    So I’m starting a casual job hunt, and it’s a bit of a weird feeling, making the shift from “okay, anything entry-ish level in this general industry area” to “I am a professional with X specific qualifications looking for a specific sort of role in Y area of this specific sub-industry.” I mean, I’m sure this is pretty normal for job-hunting in your 30s instead of your 20s, and with basic and (hopefully soon!) supervisory professional licenses, but it’s just such an odd switch. I can go look at some big firm’s careers page and discover they have nothing posted right now that interests me. It’s a bit intimidating — the little panicky animal that lives in my brain is screaming that I am now unemployable and have backed myself into a corner. But it’s just career progression that I don’t want to lose, really!

    1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      And yes, I did finally decide to update my noble title on here. A few people have asked about it, and I finally decided that not getting misgendered > the fun draggy aesthetic of being the Countess.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m in the same boat, it feels so weird to pass on job listings I would have jumped on a few years ago!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I had to go through this myself a few years ago. And believe me, once you get out there and start interviewing, it’s going to get better with practice and time.

      1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

        I’m looking forward to it! Hopefully, once my new licenses are in the bag and I’ve moved up one or two times within my current firm, I’ll have a better sense of what my new scope of roles looks like. Getting the supervisory licenses doesn’t equal getting the supervisory experience, after all.

  164. Oompah*

    I manage a team of awesome people with strong work ethics. They all work hard to go above and beyond. (I also work hard to make sure they have good working conditions).

    Except this one person. She only just meets expected standards. Sometimes she doesn’t, and gets offended if her substandard work is held accountable. She does improve when I talk to her – but only goes as far as meeting minimal expectations and absolutely nothing else. She resists doing the occasional overtime even when everyone else is working long hours that week.

    I can’t say she is terrible but her attitude and performance are hard to ignore given the contrast between her and everyone else.

    Is this problematic to the extent that we need to exit her? On my end I have given her ample time and explicit feedback of her performance and my expectations. It’s clear she’s unlikely to change. I am concerned how she will end up affecting team morale.

    1. Havarti*

      Coming down on her for only meeting expected standards and not (voluntarily?) working OT don’t sound like the best foundation for firing her. What if she has kids and can’t work OT or something? Also some folks are very much “my hours are 9-5 and I won’t do anything at 5:01pm” which I can sort of respect for them at least establishing a boundary, I guess. I mean, she’s clearly a bad fit culturally. However, substandard work and a bad attitude are things you can use. If you have to keep talking to her to make her improve her work and then she slacks off again until the next talk, yeah that’s bad. If you haven’t made it 100% clear that she needs to be meeting the standard on her own without you hovering over her or she’s fired, you really need to.

      1. Oompah*

        The OT issue- we make it clear during the hiring process that occasional OT is a must. They are paid for every extra minute worked because they really do need to do it sometimes. Usually everyone takes turns doing OT so individually you might end up doing it every 2-3 months. But if one person balks then it means the rest of the team would have to work OT more frequently and it can understandably cause resentment if one person refuses. Her not doing OT is not a massive deal from an operational perspective, but I’m more concerned about perceived unfairness from the team and others starting to refuse OT as well.

        1. valentine*

          Is this problematic to the extent that we need to exit her?
          Having someone even halfway between her and the rest of the team in terms of attitude and output will give y’all a great boost. Imagine the person you want in her role. And hire them.

    2. Colette*

      Meeting minimal expectations only when you talk to her is a problem. as is getting offended when her substandard work is pointed out. (The overtime may be less so, depending on the circumstances – is she leaving work unfinished for others to complete, or does she have a different job that is done when she leaves? How occasional is the overtime, and was it clear it was part of the job when she was hired?)

      But yes, I think she’ll affect morale.

    3. CatCat*

      It sounds like you have higher expectations than are actually being communicated. If “just meeting expected standards” is bad, you need to think about what the real expected standards are, communicate that, and hold her to that. If the standards are now higher then the standards are now higher, but she needs to be told that.

      Is the OT required? Make it a requirement if it is, but don’t ding people for not choosing to work it if it’s voluntary. People have lives outside of work.

      I think the “getting offended” if work is substandard is an issue (but is it a particularly big issue if she is actually then fixing the problem?) Can you explain more about that?

      Why would this impact team morale?

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Presumably she’d be #1 on your layoff list.

      My impression is that these days (at least in the US), layoffs are “soft firings” for problems like this — you don’t want that employee long term, but technically she meets the stands (if only barely) and hasn’t committed documentable repeated and/or serious misconduct — so management/HR/Counsel would frown on actually, individually firing her.

      Also, of course if she won’t go out of her way for you (individually or collectively), return the favor. Quote her the rules any time she wants them bent for her.

    5. Close Bracket*

      If you want her to wear 37 pieces of flair, you need to make the minimum 37 pieces of flair. In an at will state, you can fire her for any damn reason you want, including that she wears ugly shirts. But if she is meeting expectations, then you don’t have a performance issue. Of course, when she doesn’t meet expectations, you do have a performance issue. Focus on that.

  165. Clara*

    I know I need to be patient, but I’m so bad at doing that!

    I had an interview on Tuesday that went really well for a job I really want and am well qualified for. I also know a few people (former coworkers) who know the HM. One of the people I know is actually the HM’s supervisor. I know I need to try to put it out of my mind, but I’m terrible at that. I had asked about a timeline, and was told that they had a few more interviews to get through and then hoped to make a decision “soon”. When I pushed a few minutes later by asking the same question in a slightly different way, I got a similar sort of vague response.

    Any tips on being more patient? And maybe some stern talking to about how even though I’d be a good fit for the role, but they might find a better one? I worry about getting my hopes up and then dealing with the crushing disappointment.

    Thanks to Alison and all of the great commentators on here. I’m convinced the reason I did so well i in the interview was because of all of the advice given on this site! (And the magic question, of course!)

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Take that energy and learn how to do something new, like making a three-tiered cake (I have cake on the brain…)

  166. Sad Sacked*

    Two weeks ago I was fired from my job, for reasons that were both preventable and inevitable. I’ve been trying to move on, throwing myself into the job search and taking on a part time job to cover the bills, but I still lie awake at night replaying conversations and thinking about what I coulda, shoulda, woulda done differently. Is that normal? How long until I’m over it?

    1. De Minimis*

      It’s normal. You’ll probably get over it once your work situation stabilizes again. I was fired and really held on to the regrets and bad feelings until I found the next job.

    2. Sad Sacked*

      Like, I’m worried that I’m not able to emotionally commit to a new job, because I’m still sad and angry about how the last one ended.

    3. Stormy Weather*

      It is normal, and it sucks, but it can be survived.

      There’s no hard and fast timeline. Keeping busy is helpful and I think the part-time job you took is a smart thing.

    4. CW*

      I had that happen to me a few years ago with the same circumstances. On top of that, my ex-boss fired me on the phone right after I got home. He didn’t have the guts to do it face-to-face. To make matters worse, it was a Friday evening when it happened – and you guessed it: it ruined my weekend.

      But back to you – it is perfectly normal. From what I learned, it depends on the boss. I learned from it. And if you feel this way, chances are you will not be fired again. Almost everyone has been fired once. It happened to you already, so chances are it won’t happen again.

      And yes, I haven’t been fired since that dreadful night. In case you are wondering, this happened April 2017.

    5. Sad Sack 2.0*

      I was just let go this week as well, for no doubt a similar case. Just wanted to reach out with support to let you know you’re not the only one out there. We got this

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is normal. It’s the grief cycle.

      And once you do find that new job, it’ll still be difficult for a little bit but it does get better, you do move on. It’s like a cruddy breakup in the end. You will overcome.

    7. Oompah*

      Two weeks is still pretty raw when you go through a firing, regardless of reason. Let yourself grieve and go through whatever feelings and thoughts you have.

      Much respect to you for recognising the reasons were preventable/inevitable – so many people are in denial about their own shortcomings and make the same mistake again and again. We all feck up and when people are smart enough they learn from it.

      I’m sorry this happened but hopefully you can look back on it as a positive learning experience in the future. Good luck with the job search.

  167. QueenoftheCats*

    Hey, so I’m working in InDesign to produce online course materials. My company has been mostly producing PDFs for people to download but now we’re moving towards producing both PDFs and EPubs. I have 2 questions:

    1. Any suggestions of resources/advice/commiseration to think about (I’m new and learning)?

    2. Accessibility. I think the latest version of InDesign has added new features to allow for better accessibility. How should I bring up incorporating things like Alt. Text in our future content? So far, I’ve been passively (?) bringing it up by saying things like “I’m experimenting with the accessibility features” and naming test files like “L1 Accessibility.” Also, does anyone mind sharing resources for writing alt. Text? So far, my text has been very basic and I try to avoid repeating what the image caption says. Eg, Image caption: Cats are agile creatures that contort their bodies several times through the air before landing. Me: Orange cat twists its body in mid air after jumping out of a tree before landing on the ground.

    Thank you!

    1. Havarti*

      You’ll need to look for PDF accessibility standards. If you’re in the US, searching for Section 508 can be a starting point. Because of the work we do, we’re required to make things like websites and PDFs 508 compliant. It’s a company-wide requirement. For something like online course materials, accessibility should be a requirement ideally. How have they reacted to your casual mentions?

      I think you need to do some research on standards first and then meet with your boss about it. Maybe talk about it in a low key way first to see if they go “Hey that sounds interesting. Definitely look into that more.” or “Aw heck no! We don’t have time for that nonsense!” so you can figure out what approach to use. Abled folks are so resistant to making things accessible so I’m happy you’re being proactive!

      As for alt text, dunno. Your example seems pretty good to me. The last time I had to offer input on alt text for a file we all just flailed our way through it.

  168. JohnnyBravo*

    A question about bathrooms: so my office is about 80% women. On my floor there’s 2 single-stall bathrooms neither of which is marked for a gender. On the 2nd and 3rd floors the bathrooms are marked. I work on the 1st floor west-side and the 1st floor east-side is literally all women.

    Currently the 1st floor west-side bathroom is out of commission, so when I’ve needed to pee I’ve headed over to the east-side. The women over there have been complaining that I’m using a “women’s” room (it’s unmarked, single toilet, and I’ve got a key) and they want me to walk up to the 2nd floor east side where the larger men’s room is.
    I’m of the opinion that since they had no compunction using the single stall restroom on “my” side they can go piss off (the restroom has a single key kept at a front desk so there’s no risk of a walk in) especially since it’s unmarked.

    Although the ringleader of the complainers also illegally parks her Mercedes blocking people in and doesn’t believe it’s mandatory to tip delivery drivers so I’m 90% that she’s also being the asshole in this case

    2. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      If it’s not marked, then it’s not marked. They may think of it as a women’s bathroom since women sit around it, but there’s nothing there that says anything of the sort — and if it’s a single-user bathroom, then it shouldn’t even matter.

      They’re being absurd.

    3. Viette*

      She’s being a jerk. It’s an unmarked single-occupancy bathroom. I personally believe that anyone of any gender can and should use any single-occupancy bathroom they want, markings or not, because FFS it’s a room with a toilet in it.

      If this lady needs to pee so freaking badly, *she* can walk upstairs when you’re in there.

  169. SaraV*

    I’ve been reading this blog way too long.

    I inadvertently allowed my log-in into our banking website time out at work. When I came back to the browser, there was a message saying “BEC attacks are difficult to detect.” Well. Huh.

    I had to google that BEC in “normal” work terms means “business email compromise”. Ah. Okay.

    Everyone….hope you have a good day today!

  170. Balancing Team's Professional Development with Your Own*

    I manage a small team that works in a specific support field in higher education (think academic advisers within a university department). I used to be a member of the team, which was managed by my now-boss, until a position was created about 2 years ago specifically to manage the team and I was promoted into it. My team and I are all of similar ages, and with the exception of my being promoted, more or less in similar stages of our careers.

    Over the past 2 years in the position, I’ve had the opportunity to get involved in our field’s professional association, attending one conference a year and participating in various volunteer activities. It has been a wonderful experience networking with colleagues across the country, and it has helped me set the stage for future career advancement.

    But due to limited funds (we’re at a cash-strapped public university), I am the only person who has been able to attend these conferences or even officially be a dues-paying member of the association. I am starting to feel guilty hoarding all of these professional development opportunities for myself! I want to advocate for my team, and might even be willing to fund my own membership and conference attendance to create an opportunity for someone else. But if I did so, I’m not sure how best to decide which one person on my team would get to be a member and attend the conference each year. For what it’s worth, I think about half my team would be excited about getting involved and building their network, and the other half would not be interested in those sorts of activities. To further complicate matters, the conference rotates locations every year, and some years are substantially more attractive than others, such as Miami versus Indianapolis (no offense to any Hoosiers out there!).

    Should I get over feeling guilty and accept that with limited funds the best course of action is just to send me as the team manager? Or is there a fair way to share these opportunities with my team?

    1. Free Meercats*

      I’m in a similar position, Lead (essentially managing them while remaining in the union) in my workgroup, not a lot of money for training unless one is in a position that has mandatory training requirements on licences (we aren’t), and on large national conference a year that rotates West/Middle/East. When it’s close with no overnight travel required, we can all go, when it’s not, it’s only one of us. And as the managerish person, I go and pass on the stuff learned when I get back.

      Is there some regional conference they can attend? We have one and while it’s still overnight, it’s within driving distance, so we use a city car to go, reducing the cost with no airfare. Since we can only send one person each year, I pass on this one and send one of the other guys. Looks like one of them will be doing a presentation on our Never Ending Project this year.

    2. JustMyImagination*

      Can you rotate so that you only attend every other year and allow one of your staff to attend in the off-years? I used to be on a team of three and that’s what my manager set up so we all had a chance to go. In order to attend, though, we had to come back and present relevant information learned so that all staff partially benefited.

      Also, check if the conference offers any type of scholarship to cover registration fees.

    3. Havarti*

      Part of the privilege (or curse) of management is belonging to professional associations and attending various conferences or presenting papers. Most of our lower level staff do not belong to associations or at least they haven’t signed up through the company. I think it’s worth sharing any knowledge you gain but picking one person to be the lucky one… Ooh, that’s tough. It’s very kind that you’re thinking of your staff’s professional development though. Perhaps mention it to your boss and see what they say? I would hesitate to take on paying my own dues though.

  171. Free Meercats*

    A bit of workplace drama just occurred. One of the people who works for me who is notoriously grumpy was just told by someone in another work group, in front of many witnesses, “God, it must suck to be you.” The teller had just been grumped at for no good reason.

    I can’t wait to see how this works out.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      Ahahahahaha depends on the self-awareness of the grump.

      My workplace grump would lash out at you immediately or ignore it.

      I definitely thought it and said it to others this week when he grumbled about a valentines STICKER from a coworker (puffy animals!) saying he hopes he doesn’t work on valentines day next year. It must suck to be him, to be so bitter all the time.

      Props to your teller! Grumps are exhausting.

  172. Wanna Be Priva See*

    My contracting company told me months ago that a CIPP certification I wanted to take could be reimbursed, via expense report through charge code. It took months, but finally got the charge code this week. However, they can only reimburse 40% of the total cost.

    At the same time, I have a government interview next week and someone suggested if I get the job, negotiate for the CIPP certification costs to be reimbursed.

    Goal: start studying mid/late February, till when I take the exam in early August

    SOOooo.
    Do I:
    1. Buy the $2000+ materials now with only $800 of it reimbursed?
    2. Wait till the interview next week, mention it during the interview (about to take exam/cost reimbursement policy) *then sign up for exam/costs that Friday* or
    3. Have the interview, wait another 2 weeks for a slight change of a job offer, then once at said job, maybe get 100% reimbursement of costs, sign up for the exam then?

    There’s no guarantee I’d get the job either, but if I *did* get the job, it would most certainly be much better reimbursed more than 40% of the total cost.

  173. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Job search question: What’s the downside to reaching out to a job that rejected me based on thinking the commute was too long?

    I applied and interviewed (HR screen, then phone interview with the hiring manager). Summary of the interview with the hiring manager:

    Hiring Manager: Are you willing to move here to avoid the 45-60 minute commute? We’re were worried about burn-out and I’m considering moving to reduce my commute.
    Me: No, because it’s not that long of a commute (plus public transit is a viable option), but what’s your work from home policy? Could I work from home 1-2 days a week?
    Hiring Manager: (seemed taken aback) Well, we aren’t a work from home type of an office, so I’ll have to check with HR.

    In my follow-up note, I re-stated that I’m fine with the commute and have done similar commutes in the past. HR sent me a rejection and when I asked for feedback, they cited the work from home being a deal-breaker, not about skills/qualifications. The job is still open (60+ days) and I’m desperate to leave my current job (burn out), so I’m tempted to reach out again to see if they would reconsider my application, if the commute was really the only issue. What do you think would be the downsides, besides lost pride?

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t. They’ve made a decision, and it was that you are not the right person for the job. Maybe you think the commute is OK, but they don’t – and they’re particularly not open to working from home.

      The only scenario in which I would think you could reach out again would be if you were moving closer and wanted to let them know.

      (But also, think about why they’re concerned. Does that mean everyone works a lot of overtime? Is the boss strictly of the opinion that if she can’t see you, you aren’t working? Are you OK with never being able to work from home?)

    2. Oompah*

      I can’t imagine they would change their mind at this point. From a hiring manager perspective, I’ve had tonnes of applicants who say one hour commute is “just fine” but when they actually start the job it’s a different story. (I mean, in some cities a one hour commute would be standard; and for others it would be a big deal.) So when they express skepticism about your willingness to commute it could come from well founded data.

      It could also be that they picked up you weren’t a good cultural fit for their team? Whatever it was, they’ve made the decision to decline your application. I guess you have nothing to lose by reaching out but be prepared for another rejection.

    3. WellRed*

      Unfortunately they were concerned with the commute and you said it was fine, followed by asking about their WFH. This opportunity is gone.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Thanks all. I knew the answer was “nope, ship has sailed”, I’m just feeling desperate. Almost time for job search cake!!

    5. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      You gave them, at best, mixed messages.

      Asking about their WFH policy — especially in the context of the commute itself — suggested to them that you really felt it was kind of a long commute.

      Employers sometimes strongly prefer candidates who would have short commutes, even if a longer-commute candidate insists they’re OK with it. They may figure you’re just saying that to get the job, and then leave later when you find a job with a short commute (or if/when you get fed up with the long commute).

      In fact, this hiring practice can even cause civil rights issues (at least in the US)…think of a suburban or downtown area business in effect not hiring people from “the ‘hood”.

      For the record, my own commute is 45-60 minutes each way (at least during rush hour…when I work late it’s closer to 30 minutes going home). And I’ve done 90+-minute each way commutes (public transportation).

  174. EdenMinora*

    I wonder if y’all can provide guidance. I have a coworker (Mary) who is easily angered, especially if you have to correct her. Last week I reported Mary’s behavior to our supervisor (Lilith), since she blew up at me for correcting her. Long story short, she said we were out of blue teacups, but I informed her we had many blue teacups in storage. She exploded and was upset that I had corrected her.

    Now another incident with Mary has occurred, her once again getting angry at me for correcting her and her angrily telling me, she’ll make sure Lilith knows about this. I feel like I should report this second incident to Lilith but I’m worried it will look like I’m tattling since this happened so close to the last one and because Mary is Lilith’s favorite employee.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Maybe start documenting these incidents (date, time, who said what, what consequences there would be that would hurt productivity) and when you have a critical mass, you can share that with Lilith all in one go, instead of piecemeal. That would also help you see if this is a pattern.

      Probably only stick with incidents you’re involved in, though.

      1. EdenMinora*

        Thanks I’ve been documenting since the first incident. Presenting it all in one go sounds like a smart idea.

    2. Colette*

      How did your conversation with Lilith go last week? Can you ask her what she’d like you to do when Mary gets angry with you? (I assume that “gets angry” involves yelling or throwing things?)

      1. EdenMinora*

        Angry is usually only yelling, arguing, or if it happens early enough in the work day Mary will try to “throw me under the bus” for little things. Such making statements in front of Lilith like “EdenMinora forgot to put a period at the end of the sentence on this paperwork.” and then try to “teach” me how to use a period.

        Lilith acted neutral, I think. She just said to send her an e-mail of what happened and she’ll follow up with Mary later. I don’t know if she has or not, I assume she might have since Mary has been more angry than usual with me.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I wouldn’t mention it to Lilith as “reporting an incident,” but as checking in with her because Mary said she was going to “make sure Lilith knows.”

      As in, “Hey, Mary said she was going to you about an issue with me, so I wanted to check in with you about it. From my perspective, she said X, and I let her know that in fact Y is true. I’m not sure why she would feel this was something to report, but is there something I should do differently?”

      In real life, if Lilith won’t do anything about Mary’s tantrums, then from now on I’d just ignore her original statement that you were out of blue cups (or whatever), and go get the stash of blue teacups out of storage and use them in front of her. Let her say wrong things and be wrong, as long as it doesn’t interfere with your work. Let her look stupid – she has forfeited your help.

    4. WellRed*

      I’m curious how you react in the
      Moment to Mary’s outbursts? Do you take it quietly? Scream back? Calmly announce you’ll talk to her later? Tell her you won’t be yelled at so you’re walking away?

        1. EdenMinora*

          Usually I repeat the facts to her multiple times. I try to keep calm, but I know when Mary keeps arguing I can get snarky. Though with the most recent incident I walked away from her since I didn’t want to go back and forth over minor issues.

          1. valentine*

            Usually I repeat the facts to her multiple times.
            Put down your end of the rope. She won’t be helped. Tell her, “We can discuss this when you’ve calmed down.” Is this always in person? Can you go back to your desk and email the correction?

    5. CM*

      I would send Lilith an email that literally said, “Mary yelled at me about the cups again, FYI.” Or whatever accurately describes the situation. Assertive but super casual, and not opening the door to litigate a case about whether or not it’s okay to yell at somebody about the cups. And I would send a light, casual email about it every single time it happened.

      I wouldn’t do it because I expected Lilith to do anything — I would do it because it’s Lilith’s job to make sure that neither Mary nor I are working in an environment where people get yelled at, and she’s not doing it, and she should be reminded that she’s not doing it on a persistent, ongoing basis.

  175. Anonadog*

    Anyone familiar with titles in the banking industry? I have a phone interview next week at a major financial institution for a role that is “Vice President of X, Senior Specialist.” I know bank titles are often inflated, but I’m not sure what kind of level this is – Vice President and Senior Specialist seem very far apart. NB: they want 1o+ years of experience.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not in banking but it seems that everyone is a “VP” that I speak to. Even just the person who is our account rep has the VP title.

      But I do agree that it’s a weird combination as well.

    2. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      At least at my employer (large financial institution), VP is a title that generally indicates someone has reached either a high-level individual contributor role or a low-level management role. For example, our $1Mil+ relationship managers are Vice Presidents, which is a role that’s three promotions up from entry level. VP/Senior Specialist would sound to me like a role along those lines.

      1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

        I should say, 3+ promotions from entry level. I’m 2 promotions up from EL, and I’d expect to need 2 promotions to reach VP status, because our tiering is a little cockeyed in places.

    3. same boat*

      VP is probably where someone would be with 10 years of experience. But banking titles are weird. Most titles are referring to levels of seniority, not the actual job function. My company had managing directors with no one reporting into them. It sounds like the Vice President of X department is the senior specialist of whatever that department does? I think the chief economist at the major financial institution I work at technically has the title of “Managing Director, Research” even though he is regularly referred to as chief economist. Does that clarify things a bit?

      It is also weird because Senior Specialist is the job title given to entry-level hires at some financial institutions. The progression varies by institution but can be something like: Senior Specialist–Analyst–Associate–AVP–VP–President–Director–MD

  176. Cruciatus*

    So I’m reading the university I work at’s student-run paper and I see the advice from the career services department that “no resume should be over a page in length” and I’m wondering if it’s worth saying anything. That advice is dead, right?

    Sigh. I mean, a student’s resume should probably not be over one page…so this advice is not harming them, but in the future it might! The career services person is also quoted as saying “…[she] expressed the ability to use margins for those with lengthier resumes.” Mmkay?

    The rest of the advice seems OK (write a cover letter, gain experience when possible, make things easy to read) so there’s that.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I work on a college campus too, and in my experience it’s not worth saying anything. Sometimes the student interviewer doesn’t correctly convey what the staff member is trying to say, but campus career centers sadly are known for providing suspect advice. What I do is offer to review the resume for the students I work with and help them with their job search in any way I can!

    2. Sirah*

      I’d say…eh, it’s worth a shot. They might change it, they might smile at you and promptly forget whatever you told them. But there’s no harm in pointing it out, IMO.

    4. RagingADHD*

      This seems like a relevant and reasonable thing for a student career advisor to say. If they hedge it with “in most cases” or “for most students,” etc, there are going to be far more students/ recent grads who are just absolutely positive that they are the One Chosen Unicorn whose accomplishments are worthy of a 10-page resume.

      Very few professionals who have been working long enough to actually earn a 2 page resume are going to rely on advice from their college career advisor from 20-30 years ago.

  177. I Love Grammar*

    I’m stopping in to say that I took Alison’s advice when I recently negotiated and it worked! Thanks, Alison!

  178. Stormy Weather*

    Recruiter stories! I bet this group has a ton of them.

    I’ve been lucky enough to have a few good ones. The type that proactively communicate, and stay in touch, and are low to no on the BS meter.

    Then there was one, on the other hand, who emailed me about a job managing ancient teapot restorations. I agreed to talk to her and when we spoke on the phone, it was a bait & switch. The job, she said, had been downgraded to teapot paint mixer and the salary she quoted was half of what the manager job was. When I said the salary cut was unacceptable, she said it was perfectly in line with my experience. The salary for the management job was market pay for the position.

    I lost my temper at that point.

    1. LunaMei*

      I had a recruiter contact me from a well-known game company in a coastal city for a job that would be a lateral move for me. It’s a city I’d love to live in, if it weren’t so insanely expensive (I’m currently living in Texas). Also, the company sounded really cool, but “cool” don’t pay the bills. Anyway, I talked with him about the role, and it seemed like a great fit for me…until we got to salary. He wouldn’t tell me what it was, even after asking point-blank. He did, however, keep telling me it was “so fun” to work there, and it was Big Name Video Game company, and everyone just loooooved it. I told him I couldn’t make it work unless I had a minimum of $x (I did the math – this city is over 16% increase in cost of living), and he just kind of choked up and got quiet, and then reminded me again about all the fun, and they had foosball and stuff. Thanks, but no thanks.

      I had looked up the average salary for the position, and the number I named was in line with the market rate for that area, so I don’t think I was out of line…but then I googled specifically “developer for BNVG Company” and realized they were paying even lower than market rate for MY area.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Yes! They also will knock up to 40% off the rent if you can prove that your job is personally fulfilling.

    2. ArtK*

      BG: I had done customer support very early in my career. Decided that it wasn’t for me the day I wanted to answer the phone “Customer Support: This BETTER BE GOOD!” Went on to system administration for several years and then on to software development.

      This recruiter calls me, opening with “I understand that you do customer support…” I’d explain that I hated it and would never do it again and she’d apologize. Then call me again 6 months later. Lather, rinse, repeat. I don’t recall how many times it took before she got the message.

      When I was more actively looking, I’d get contacts on LinkedIn from lazy recruiters who had done a keyword search but nothing more. One of them called me with an engineering job (I’m a software and systems engineer.) This engineering job was maintaining the HVAC and elevators in a hotel. Most of the SPAM approaches I ignore; this one annoyed me enough to give a sharp response about actually reading before sending an e-mail.

      1. Stormy Weather*

        I did my time on a help desk too, then I went into software implementation, and now I’m a project manager. Call center work ended in 2005 and I still get recruiter emails about it.

        I usually respond to these with, “You’ve got to be kidding,” and block their domain.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I have never had any luck with recruiters. Every job I’ve had I’ve applied myself. I have yet to have a recruiter actually understand what my career is and send me appropriate jobs. Yes, I once worked in a lab setting…. back a decade, during my undergrad. No, I am not interested in any way, shape, or form in an entry level lab tech setting. If you even glanced at anything else on my LinkedIn profile or resume you would know that. And no, I’m not okay with that salary, and no, it is not in line with my career in any fashion.

      My husband though has gotten probably 75% of his jobs through a recruiter and speaks well of them. Field difference. *shrug*

      I’m a bit biased today though because I have had three (3) recruiters contact *me* recently, really try to sell me on a position that seemed promising, and then completely ghost. Uh, okay, thanks.

      I’m getting plenty interviews otherwise, so I don’t think it’s my resume.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Minor one – I got an email from a recruiter via LinkedIn for a 6 month contract job paying a little over half the hourly rate that I current earn at my full time job. Sorry, not gonna quit for a short term, low paying gig with no benefits.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I got a cold email from a recruiter a few months back wanting someone to manage a 10-report denials team. I currently work denials-adjacent and have absolutely zero desire to actually work denials, because trying to get insurance companies to actually pay their insured’s bills is like pulling teeth, but I was curious about the details, so I asked about the salary.

      It was less than a third of what I currently make, to have HR responsibilities for 10 people (currently zero, but TL for 25), to have to actually go in to work with a 35 minute commute (currently 100% WFH), and to work in the least appealing sector of my industry. Thanks, but no thanks!

    6. AdAgencyChick*

      I’m a copywriter. Pretend I make advertising for veterinarians.

      I ROUTINELY get recruiter email for “veterinarian” and “veterinarian manager” jobs.

      I’m not remotely qualified to actually treat anybody’s pet, OK? I’d probably accidentally kill them? I just write about other people doing it.

    7. KoiFeeder*

      I had to shut down my facebook because some incredibly pushy recruiters figured out that I was related to my dad and were basically harassing me to put him in touch with them. It was so creepy.

  179. Sirah*

    I’m in a very depressing, distressing situation with my fiance and his job hunt. He was in school to do architecture, primarily through AutoCAD and Revit. He had to leave the school abruptly somewhat late last semester due to a sudden serious illness, which the school couldn’t give two fresh left butt cheeks about, because despite our pleas about the situation, they’re still demanding that he pay up around $4400 to get back in to the school to pay off his last semester since his financial aid was withdrawn due to his leaving school due to the illness. (If you’ve been to tertiary school in the US, you know how it is. We tried appealing but our appeals weren’t good enough for the people in charge.) Neither we nor anyone we know has that kind of money lying around, and in the meantime, he’s trying to make ends meet with doing DoorDash.

    The thing is, he DOES have enough knowledge of AutoCAD to do it at home on a contract basis. But he no longer has the computer that the school issued him with the AutoCAD program on it since they demanded it back before they apprised us that we’d have to cough up nearly $5k to get him back into the school. I do have a relative that has a computer with AutoCAD 2006 preinstalled on it, but my fiance said that won’t work at all. “Everyone wants the most recent version”, which is on a subscription basis costing around $1500 a year.

    I’m not sure if my fiance is right about that; my relative, who works in the industry (yet also is under the thumb of yet another relative who also works in that industry, but who also hates our guts intensely and is thus not willing to help my fiance find a job in said industry), says all the commands, etc. all the same, but my fiance is very insistent that “No, no, no, just stop, it won’t work”. In fact, my fiance often seems to have a lot more of a hopeless outlook on these kinds of things than I do. I’m more of a “It’s worth a shot, what do we have to lose anymore?” kind of person, he’s more “Why bother, it’s just ain’t gonna work.”

    Speaking of that relative that seems to hate us more than anything, I’m also seriously afraid that he may be sabotaging my fiance’s attempts to get his foot in the door in this industry. Basically, this relative is the self-appointed “patriarch” and strongly believes we all have to be obedient to him. We were not 100% in accordance with his will, so now he has to make us fully aware of how much this has consequences. I would not put it past him to have dissed my fiance’s name and reputation in order to teach us a lesson. The biggest issue being that one this relative starts teaching you a lesson, it’s very rare for him to stop. That being said, it would be no surprise to me if many local people in this industry don’t like this relative, either….

    My fiance desperately wants to be in this industry and it would not only fulfill his dream, but also take huge financial loads off our backs. Right now it’s in the teens and single digits outside, and our furnace is busted. We can’t afford to eat, clean, drive, or use electricity; we’re behind on everything. This industry is in high demand in our area, yet no one seems satisfied with my fiance’s resume – he wants me to look it over with him since he’s not getting any responses. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s bad. :( Not that his work history is horrible, but he strongly disagreed with me before because he believed it was better to say he had been fired from a past job, rather than to tell the truth and say he left it due to harassment from another manager and HR’s bungled handling of it. “They’re going to think I’m a risk at being harassed or complaining about being harassed!” Just say you left voluntarily! Go over the specifics in the interview! But no….

    I guess I’m just super-discouraged. Everyone wants experience or a great big ol’ portfolio (all on his school computer, which they refuse to allow him to even access), everyone wants something that he just can’t offer, even though he can do the AutoCAD work, and again, I’m afraid my jerk relative is giving him a bad rep. Meanwhile, my house is freezing, we have nothing to eat, and utilities and debtors aren’t particularly interested in our sob story and just want their money. I even tried applying for food stamps, only to be turned down because apparently my $26k a year salary (before taxes) means I’m just swimming in cash. (I have to keep my job due to the excellent benefits and pension.) Doing the math for the average pay for AutoCAD contract work where we are, he’d be able to pay off the school bill in a couple months – if he could get any work! My fiance is doing the same low-paying unskilled jobs he can find right now but he makes so little that we wonder why we even bother. It also doesn’t look good on a resume, either, to see that someone’s been doing food delivery contract work for months. What can we do? How can we get ahead and get his foot in the door? We’re so overwhelmed.

    1. Colette*

      What’s his plan? He’s rejected some of your suggestions, so what does he intend to do to support himself?

      I don’t see any wrongdoing on the part of the school here. They weren’t paid for the last semester, so it’s normal for them to want to be paid before allowing your fiancé to take more classes. And if it’s their computer, it’s also normal for him to have to give it back when he’s not a student anymore. Your complaint here is with the financial aid program, not the school.

      What kind of help does he want? It sounds like he’s been offered (and rejected) resume help as well as a computer and software that would help him get work that pays better. So what is his plan?

      You can’t fix this for him.

      If he doesn’t want to take steps that will help him get to where he says he wants to be, what are your choices? Can you cut expenses/get another job/get a roommate? How long are you willing to pay the lion’s share of the expenses?

      1. Sirah*

        I get why the school is the way it is, although I guess my bigger beef is with “the system” in general (exploding tuition fees and all). He DOES want help. He wants me to help him with his resume now, when he was first filling out applications a couple months ago, that’s when he was incredulous that “I got fired” couldn’t look better than “I left voluntarily”. But now that he’s not getting calls back, he’s starting to think I was right. I actually copy-pasted one of Ms. Green’s resume posts to my own email so I can go over it with him later.

        1. valentine*

          We can’t afford to eat, clean, drive, or use electricity; we’re behind on everything.
          This simply needs to take precedence. The dream may have to be set aside or allowed to die on the vine, especially since you probably can’t move right now. If the relative really is sabotaging him, there’s no reason to think entering the industry, or staying in it and progressing, is possible. (That said, is it possible to play the relative’s game until you build an FU fund, or does his reach extend so far that moving elsewhere would still have him tanking fiancé’s work in the industry?)

          It’s best to separate the un-/employment stuff from your relationship dynamic, meaning you take no part of his job search. Let someone else help with the résumé, even if you’re in or knowledgeable of the industry. Otherwise, it’s real easy to blame you instead of himself or anyone else when things don’t go the way he wants.

          If you haven’t combined finances, don’t. If you have, would untangling them help? Is there anyone who can take you in, even separately, so you can get caught up on some bills?

          If he is home, can he do bulk shopping and make meals that will last several days?

    2. Anns Are Key*

      I don’t have any helpful advice for the family dynamics or dealing with student aid, but your fiance is correct that Autocad 2006 is not going to cut it. Yes, the commands are similar and he would probably be able to work with it just fine, but if he is looking for paying contract work they will want him to have a much more recent version. It’s possible to get away with not having the latest version, but no client is going to deal with files created in a version 14 years out of date. That is not him being defeatist, it is simply not a solution. Sorry.

    3. WellRed*

      I’m sorry you are in this situation but I think you need to take a step back. Not your problem to solve. It’s also not the the school’s or your relatives. Can he even get a job without the degree. And if you don’t like the relatives, why is he even part of this equation? Keep him out of your business.

  180. Decima Dewey*

    This Wednesday a children’s librarian who’s been in the system 4 months came to my branch to shadow Mr. Lastname and I for a day. Let’s call her Magda. We were the last branch she was sent to observe. Magda works in a different cluster of libraries, one that has cluster meetings with us each month. Mr. Lastname mentioned that other branch managers Magda had observed complained about her attitude.

    Mr. Lastname had some work to catch up when Magda arrived, so I took Magda to my desk, planning to show her how to do the online DVD order. Oh, my. Throughout the time we spent together, Magda’s tone implied that she already knew how to do everything I tried to show her, *obviously*, even though she actually said that she didn’t have a code to get into the online website and hadn’t done it herself. She wanted to know if it was possible to order DVD racks through the website (no, just media). When Mr. Lastname was ready for her, Magda complained about her supervisor, claiming she never told Magda anything. (I’d worked with Magda’s supervisor at another branch, strictly as a peer, and what Magda said didn’t fit with what remembered) My desk is across the library from Mr. Lastname’s, and I could hear nearly everything she said to him. I pretended I couldn’t.

    Afterward, Mr. Lastname and I agreed that her tone seemed arrogant, and he worried that she wouldn’t read stories well to children at her branch and that she might speak to them harshly.

    What worries me is that Magda has been in the system four months now. I have the feeling that the shadowing she did here and at other branches is part of a last ditch effort to allow her to pass her six month probation period. If she doesn’t, that’s another staff member lost, and another position to be filled. When Grandboss Equivalent can get permission to hire for it.

    Oh, and annual performance reviews are coming up (due to HR in March). Mr. Lastname asked me to send him an email listing his accomplishments, so that he can discuss them with Grandboss.

  181. Vendelle*

    If anyone reads this, I could really do with some advice here. For as long as I have worked, I have always had 2 parttime jobs, with the combination adding up to a full time job. I have been with company A for 14 years (15 in April) and I’ve grown our small department (me and one coworker) so much that instead if having 20 hrs per week, our department now has 32 hours per week. I work 24 hrs there, so 3 days. This is all back story to the actual issue, which is this:

    In November 2018, I got a complaint from someone who works at a company that’s related to mine, but that only sporadically interacts with my company. I work in a healthcare related field and one of my clients told me that this person (Jane) had told them I wasn’t good at working with clients who have X, even though that is what I do 80% of my time. I thanked the client for telling me, they assured me they were perfectly happy with their care, and I resolved to call Jane. I asked her for feedback and when she gave it, I took note of it and thanked her. I did say I would have preferred to have heard it from her directly, she apologized for not talking to me first and I thought that was the end of it.

    Of course that came up in my yearly review in 2018 and I could tell my boss what steps I was taking to work on the feedback and they were happy with the plan.

    Because of some problems on a personal level (fertility problems) in July, I very nearly burned out and for a while, I found it very tough to work with my clients (who are nearly all young children and their parents). Two days after my last miscarriage my new boss, who was previously my coworker, asked how I was coping and I told her I was having a hard time working with children at that moment, but that I was trying to get through it.

    This december, I had another review and I was talking about the past year and how I really felt I had come along as best as I could under the circumstances. During this talk, my boss said a few things that are sticking with me and making me anxious:
    – they mentioned that they want to give the best possible care to our population (of course! I agreed), going on to say: “I know this isn’t possible with the state you’re in right now, but we could alway hire someone else to take up your slack.” I was too dumbfounded to react to that in the moment
    – a few minutes later they mentioned that I had said I didn’t want to work with kids anymore and told me that in view of our population that was not really going to be possible. They also mentioned they would rather see me happy in another job (!) than miserable in my current one and said they would be open to helping me transition into another job somewhere else. Again, I was too shocked to reply.
    – Just before my miscarriage the boss had asked me to do something, but because of the peraonal stuff I ended up not dping it (conpletely forgot to be honest). Boss told me they felt I wasn’t loyal to the company, because I hadn’t done whaylt she had asked.

    It’s been 2 months and I keep getting more and more anxious that they are trying to set up a precedent so that they can fire me. I love this job and don’t want to lose it, but I’ve been having a really hard time feeling confide t now that I feel like I might get the boot any day.

    I talked this over with another coworkef in private who told me I should go back to my boss and ask what she meant with her words and how anxious she has made me. I am scared of tickling a sleeping dragon and having it all blow up in my face, but I am also frustrated at how things have gone. I get ONE complaint in now almost 15 years and all of a sudden I’m not delivering good quality work?! And they have never actually even SEEN any of my work! On top of that, the comment about loyalty really rubbed me the wrong way. I have given my all to that company, worked every hour of the day and night before my miscarriage and now it feels like I’m being thrown under the bus.
    So… Do you have any advice on how to deal with this? Sorry for the humongous post, I am trying to tell everything, but maybe that makes this needlessly long. Thanks in advance for your replies!

    1. Bagpuss*

      Sorry you’ve been going through so much.
      I think you should go back to your boss- not to tell her she made you anxious but to correct her misunderstandings.
      You said you were too shocked in the moment to respond which probably means she still believes what she said to you – that she thinks you don’t want to work with children at all, rather than that you had a hard time just at the moment she spoke to you; And possibly that you would want to move elsewhere.
      Don’t focus on your feelings but on practicalities “I realise that there has been some miscommunication- I want to clarify that when I mentioned to you in [month] That I was finding it hard to work with young children, I wasn’t saying that I couldn’t or wouldn’t do so, simply that right then, in that moment, it was hard for me. I enjoy my job, I know I am good at it and get a lot of positive feedback from our clients, and I am not looking to leave nor am I asking for my role to be changed”

      I think you could also say that you appreciate that they have been supportive but want to be sure that they haven’t read too much I go into a one-off comment.
      I think you could also ask if they have any concerns about your performance- hopefully as it has been several months and they haven’t brought anything up, they don’t, but asking allows you to address anything there may be, or puts your mind at rest if it was just a temporary issue.

    2. Youth*

      This is dumb.

      I agree with Bagpuss about clarifying things with your boss.
      But this also rubs me the wrong way because it sounds like you should be receiving commendations for sticking with your job even when burned out and grieving, not being accused of disloyalty. I’m guessing that your new boss/old coworker either feels they have something to prove or has a minor resentment toward you that you didn’t know about. Or both.

    3. WellRed*

      The disloyal comment would bug me too, but one question I have is, are you performing your job well? That’s not clear to me. Otherwise, yeas, sounds like a lot of miscommunication.

    4. CM*

      It sounds like your boss isn’t handling this great.

      I would take some time to think about how you’re feeling and what you want to have happen. Do you want to work as normal, take a leave of absence to deal with your medical stuff, something else? Also, if you have HR, find out if there’s an employee assistance program or other options you could take advantage of if you feel like you want to have counseling or something similar.

      Once you know where you stand, go talk to your boss and find out what’s happening from their side. I’d actually open it up by saying that you were surprised and concerned when they suggested that you should find another job, and ask them why they said that. Try to find out why your boss wants you to leave and whether there’s something you can do to change their mind. You can ask those questions pretty directly — like, literally, “Is there something I could do to change things, and be able to keep my job?”

      But the two pieces of info you need are 1) why you’re about to get fired (because I agree, it sounds like you’re about to get fired), and 2) whether there is something you can do to change it. And then, if you don’t like what your boss is proposing, propose alternatives based on what you’ve already decided about what you want.

    5. valentine*

      You need to stop confiding in your boss and coworker(s), especially if your boss doesn’t see your work. You may think telling her about infertility or miscarriage will help you, but she is weighing it in a sexist way (“the state you’re in”). Maybe you meant you have been building crying sessions into your days or you leave with a lump in your throat and she is thinking more that you can’t look the kids in the eye, you’re tuning them out, or spending less time with them. Also, consider that any coworker you’ve confided in may be reporting back to her, especially because she was once a coworker, so there’s an endless game of telephone around you. It sounds like your coworker works 8 hours/week. Does she want a piece of your 24?

      Work should not receive your all. That gives your boss way too much power. Setting boundaries is probably going to help you. Working all hours of the day and night may help clients, but probably not you.

      How did your boss find out about Jane’s complaint?

  182. Chronic Overthinker*

    I wrote in last week feeling very uncomfortable in my job. I didn’t feel like I belonged or that this was the right job for me. Well, after a near stellar busy week, I’m reminded that you sometimes have to ignore that little voice inside your head that says you’re not good enough. I’ve been at this job six months and I’ve learned so much. I would not have been hired had they not seen my value. I am reminded of SNL’s Stuart Smalley; “I’m good enough. I’m smart enough. And doggone it, people like me!”

    Some days are going to be slow, some are going to be ridiculously busy. Find the happy medium between finding work to do and giving yourself a break in the day. Pat yourself on the back for accomplishments, big and small. Know that you bring value to the workplace. And if you are struggling and need help, reach out to your boss first. They can help you figure out how to move forward or address your strengths and weaknesses. Cheers everyone and happy Friday.

    1. LunaMei*

      Thanks for writing this! I’m glad you were able to get to a better place.

      I had New Job Panic when I started my current position, and was convinced I was going to get fired within a week. But I had to ignore that voice. And now here I am three years and two promotions later, with a great boss and team.

  183. KC Sunshine*

    Any thoughts on an “informal meeting to meet the team” BEFORE your actual interview? I’m doing this next week. I interviewed here last year with who would be my boss and grandboss and it went really well, but obviously I wasn’t selected. We didn’t do this informal meeting first last time. It just seems weird to me.

    1. Chronic Overthinker*

      ooh, to me that sounds like the actual interview might just be a “we already know we’re going to hire you, but we have to follow protocol.” I would still treat it like a job interview, but this sounds like the interview itself will be a formality/job offer.

  184. You may call me professor*

    It is official. I have been promoted to Full Professor! Whoo hoo! To the academics out there. Do I send thank you notes/emails to the dossier reviewers who wrote letters of recommendation for promotion? Is it gauche to announce on Facebook and Twitter? I bought my department- students, interns, workers lunch yesterday to celebrate. My family isn’t at all interested and when I brought up filing all they had to say was I thought you were already a professor. Its complicated.

    4. MissBliss*

      Congratulations! You should totally announce it on Facebook and Twitter (and LinkedIn)! It’s something worth being proud of, and you get to celebrate :)

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m sorry your family doesn’t get it *wrinkles nose*

      But CONGRATULATIONS and yes, this is something you should proudly announce.

      People announce large benchmarks all the time, including promotions and work achievements! That’s normal, lots of friends/family want to hear about that kind of thing, that’s one of the things social media is for.

    8. OtterB*

      Congrats! I would totally announce it on social media. The reviewers who wrote letters of recommendation – were they people you identified, or does your institution pick them. If you selected them, or identified them as appropriate for someone with your specialization for the promotion committee to select from, then I think a quick e-mail saying, “Thanks for the reference letter, I’m delighted to say that I have been promoted.” Not effusive, because that sounds like you weren’t really qualified when clearly you were. But a good review and letter of reference takes time, so it seems reasonable to me to acknowledge that.

      1. You may call me Professor*

        Thanks for the language. I gave a list of dossier reviewers of national/international reputation of equal or above ranked institutions who can review my work and affirm my worthiness. My dean selected the reviewers and added a few of her own.

        1. You may call me Professor*

          I was just thinking how absurd it must seem to people on AAM that I have yearly performance reviews but they have very little to do with the tenure or promotion process. And on top of that people who do not know me personally or my teaching (who may have heard me speak at a professional conference) evaluate an over 200 page dossier and a few books, write a few pages and these documents have the power to affirm or deny promotion.

  185. Eventscoord*

    Any other event coordinators out there? I’m curious about your experiences with career fairs. I work at a uni and continually struggle with the competing priorities of the stakeholders. Ie. exhibitors often just want to raise profile of org (which is normal) but students are often upset that there aren’t actual jobs to apply to.

    I feel like part of the solution is to do more education/prep to help students understand what a career fair is, but they are busy and often don’t read material before just showing up.

    Anyone else have this problem? Ideas?

    1. MissBliss*

      Not an event coordinator, but I think you used a key word: “students don’t *read* material.” Have you tried other types of content? Video, for instance? My community college has a great presence on Instagram where they do stories to introduce students to concepts like applying to financial aid in short form video format. You can also do AMAs in this format, so inviting students to ask their questions about the career fair would be a way to 1) get content out there and 2) answer their questions and inform them about what will be there in advance.

    2. Dragoning*

      I….don’t know that I would go to a career fair as a student that doesn’t have actual jobs to apply to. Why are you holding this event? It’s great for the exhibitors to advertise themselves, but what is it offering the students?

      1. Close Bracket*

        At any given career fair, some exhibitors will have jobs and some will be there solely to raise awareness of their company. As a student (or as an experienced worker), it benefits you to talk to companies you are interested in whether they are currently hiring or not bc even though they don’t have jobs right now, they will have jobs in the future, and you might not get another opportunity to talk candidly with a person who works there about what the company is like. This should all be part of a career fair prep-session for students.

    3. WellRed*

      I attended a journalism event as a senior that had advertised a career fair as part of it. I had a stack of resumes and clips (it was awhile ago). What a waste of paper and effort. Still irritated ; )
      What is the point of these companies raising their profile? Also, think students should be your priority stakeholder here.

    4. CM*

      I’m also confused about what students are meant to do at the career fair if nobody’s hiring. Maybe I don’t get it, but I always thought the point was to connect people who had job openings with people who were looking for jobs.

    5. Close Bracket*

      My college put a lot of effort into prepping students for career fairs, including holding multiple one-hour information sessions on how to go to and benefit from career fairs. Having students there as an audience means you aren’t relying on them to read something. Is this something that you are in a position to do?

  186. CathB*

    I could use some hiring advise. I get to hire someone who will report to me. I‘m the teapot designer, the new hire will work on tea pot case studies. We are in the middle of the integration phase after an acquisition and there is a lot of attitude and competition around. I really want to find someone who will play along and not join the „toe stepping“. There are a couple of internal candidates that, while qualified, will see that as a stepping stone and do everything in their power to get my job.
    My manager loves them, I‘d rather cut my arm off than hire one of them.
    How do I convince my manager that it‘s worth to keep looking?

    1. CathB*

      It‘s not so much that I feel threatened, but we have actual WORK to do that I need people to focus on, not their next career step (at least not for the next 12 months or so…).

      1. Fikly*

        Is this a new position, or are you replacing someone?

        Can you point to how long it will take to train them? If you hire someone you think will move on after a year, and it takes them 6 months to get up to speed, that’s only 6 months of fully doing the job, and then it’s another 6 months of training new person (plus however long the hiring procss is) to get the job carried out fully.

        I would focus less on “I think they will want my job” and more on “I think they will try to get a different job after x time.”

        I went to a public high school that looked rather good on ones resume, and we were plagued by principals that would come and only stay for 1-2 years for exactly that reason – they wanted it on their resume, and then they’d use it as a stepping stone to the job they really wanted.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would try to spin it as bringing in fresh eyes, fresh passion, fresh whatever you need to continue to build your expanding department.

      In the end, you may not get anyone who is as qualified as your internal candidates, so that’s going to suck. But you certainly can try to get them to at least let you try to look by pleading that you should look into all your options and not blindly only look from within.

  187. Bagpuss*

    Sorry you’ve been going through so much.
    I think you should go back to your boss- not to tell her she made you anxious but to correct her misunderstandings.
    You said you were too shocked in the moment to respond which probably means she still believes what she said to you – that she thinks you don’t want to work with children at all, rather than that you had a hard time just at the moment she spoke to you; And possibly that you would want to move elsewhere.
    Don’t focus on your feelings but on practicalities “I realise that there has been some miscommunication- I want to clarify that when I mentioned to you in [month] That I was finding it hard to work with young children, I wasn’t saying that I couldn’t or wouldn’t do so, simply that right then, in that moment, it was hard for me. I enjoy my job, I know I am good at it and get a lot of positive feedback from our clients, and I am not looking to leave nor am I asking for my role to be changed”

    I think you could also say that you appreciate that they have been supportive but want to be sure that they haven’t read too much I go into a one-off comment.
    I think you could also ask if they have any concerns about your performance- hopefully as it has been several months and they haven’t brought anything up, they don’t, but asking allows you to address anything there may be, or puts your mind at rest if it was just a temporary issue.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yes!

      Sometimes they don’t want to but in my experience that’s rare. Being in that supervisor position reminds you that even when you leave or the person you’re acting as reference for leaves, you’re in it for the long haul. It’s pretty minimal effort usually for references, so try not to worry about the fact that they’re retired it doesn’t put most people out.

    3. De Minimis*

      One of my best references is a former supervisor who retired a few years ago.

      I left on good terms [before they retired] and we have kept in touch.

  189. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    My patience doesn’t exist any longer. Not today.

    I keep coming into contact with people who break their own procurement procedures and then get mad that I revoke their credit terms because you know what happens when you don’t follow your own internal controls? The AP team doesn’t pay a GD invoice. And when I don’t get paid, I don’t like you and I don’t give you more room to screw us out of the whole thing that keeps businesses trucking along.

    Also if I ever hear “It’s only X amount!” again…sigh, I’ll just hate the person in general, I won’t actually do anything. Because you know, there’s nothing to be done. My standard response is “The amount is irrelevant, it’s past due and without it, your account is locked.”

    If it’s “just” X amount of money to you, then send me a personal check, Janice. Oh yeah…naturally it’s “only” X amount when it’s not your checking account. R_A_W_R

    Boss is out of town. New boss comes in a couple weeks when he returns. Vendors are draining my energy. Clients are draining my energy. This is why we drink? 3 more hours until Happy Hour? IDK, rant with meeeeee, wallow with meeeeee.

    3. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Also if I ever hear “It’s only X amount!” again…sigh, I’ll just hate the person in general, I won’t actually do anything. Because you know, there’s nothing to be done. My standard response is “The amount is irrelevant, it’s past due and without it, your account is locked.”

      If it’s “just” X amount of money to you, then send me a personal check, Janice. Oh yeah…naturally it’s “only” X amount when it’s not your checking account. R_A_W_R

      +10,000

      If I had a dollar for every time someone pulled that bullspit “argument” on me (whether about money or other things)…I could probably extend your company a loan to cover the shortfall.

      Basically, it’s an insult. They’re saying your not getting paid isn’t important.

      That says a lot about the business relationship.

      You said there’s nothing to be done (except keep the account locked until they pay in full). I don’t suppose you can implement (at least moving forward) past due fees and interest for late payment — and/or discounts for early payment? Reduce their credit limit? Even recommend reducing it all the way to zero?

      Good luck!

  190. Buttons*

    I just had the most amazing afternoon. When I first moved back to the US 6 years ago, my first job was a call center trainer. It was a love/hate roll. I loved the trainees who were going to be customer service reps, but I hated the culture.It was my first time training adults who were not professionals (engineers, doctors, lawyers, finance) One of my former trainees found me on LinkedIn and came out to see me. He told me that I changed his life. WHAT?! He said he grew up “in the hood” and that getting the CS job was huge for him, he was the first person in his family to work in an office and not retail, or construction, or some other manual labor job for minimum wage. He told me that what I taught him; be good, have empathy, you have potential, you are smart and capable, was the first time anyone had ever told him that, and he was 24. He has now gotten a degree in business and is taking train the trainer classes because he wants to teach adults like I taught him.
    He made me cry!!!
    I have said I do what I do – Talent Development- because I want people to be the best at whatever they do. My entire existence and career is to help others be the best that can be at whatever they want to be, and he told me I did that.
    I feel so much feels.

    1. OtterB*

      How wonderful! Good for you, for offering that, and him, for following through.

      Note to people wondering if they should contact an old coworker or manager to say nice things to them: Yes, yes you should.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Aw. Super nice. That’s a great story to treasure.

      And what a nice person to tell you that. So often we have these thoughts about people in our past and don’t follow through on letting them know. Just great all around.

    4. Vic tower*

      What an amazing endorsement! And you know he probably represents a much larger number of people who feel the same way but haven’t told you so!

  191. GraveyardGofer*

    This morning. One of my male coworkers kept hitting on me. Ugh.

    I got kids. I’m married. Give it a rest.

  192. Extroverted Bean Counter*

    Hello late in the day readers!

    What are your thoughts on the professionalism of leaving a job that’s “invested” in you, that expects you to stay on for a little while? No contractual obligations or anything just a general expectation.

    I’m finishing up one of those “development programs” a lot of companies have for recent grads, where you rotate through departments over a few years and get a really well-rounded experience, lots of mentoring etc… with the expectation that once you’re done you’ll move into a senior role somewhere in the company. So I’m essentially “job searching” already, looking for open roles to move into internally, and things are a little tenuous at my company right now. Not a lot of open roles, looming specter of being bought out and the uncertainty that goes with that, industry downturn, and I’m likely going to apply externally as well. As long as I’m updating my resume and have job hunt energy going on, why not?

    But I’m feeling pretty torn at the prospect of leaving. I do like my company, not least because I think we’re above market for salaries for my profession, and I’m not sure how heavily “I don’t know, the climate here is just too uncertain” should truly weigh given how leaving will burn bridges here to a degree. They get pretty upset when “development program” people leave before having a small ‘real’ career at the company.

    1. SyFyScientist*

      As someone who is currently investing department money in staff on a development program I do have to say I would be disappointed if that person took an external job. But if they did I would keep that to myself, wish them well, and organize a bon voyage happy hour.
      You should apply for external and internal jobs and if the better one is outside the company you should leave on as good terms as possible, try to maintain good relationships, and take the better job.

  193. SL*

    I’m so upset, friends. My old supervisor hated me, actively tried to work against me, and tried to get me fired as revenge for speaking up. He’s left the company, but it seems like he’s left everybody with such a bad impression of me that even my good work isn’t enough to convince people that I deserve to be in this position — or that they should collaborate with me. My current supervisor and manager have my back, but I just don’t know if that’s enough.

    1. WellRed*

      Right now, all you can do is keep doing good work and be pleasant, helpful, professional and reliable. Of course, you can also look for another job, but in the meantime.

    2. Oompah*

      I’m on the other side of this. My ex employee hated me, actively tried to work against me, and although she was eventually let go (for multiple valid reasons) she bad mouthed me to the rest of the team and it left everyone thinking I’m Hitler’s second cousin. Due to my role as a manager I couldn’t exactly go around saying to people “OH HEY you know how Candy said I was an evil dementor who fired her for no reason? That’s totally not true, she was actually fired because of XYZ.”

      Anyway, I deeply empathise with your plight. It doesn’t matter what position you are in. It truly sucks having people judge you based on false rumours. For me the impact of this lasted for a very long time. Even a year after “Candy” left I was still dealing with the repercussions of her lying.

      It does gradually subside over time. We’ve had people leave and new people come in. My boss also defended me against some of the wrong accusations and clarified with a few that I wasn’t, you know, the devil. I also had to mentally let go of my human desire to be liked. I figured I was there to do a job and if people wanted to think badly of me, so be it. I want to have a good relationship with people at my work but it goes both ways. I figured I’m doing my part by doing my work well and treating them professionally whether they liked me or not. And if that wasn’t enough that was their issue to deal with.

  194. Anonymous Fed*

    I wrote into an open thread in January about pursuing a new job or sticking around for a likely raise, though both would be the same amount of money. A couple people responded and gave me some good food for thought, particularly how I’d feel if I didn’t get the promotion this year (as I was narrowly passed over the year before). I ended up talking to the hiring manager to get more information and realized there were a lot more positives about the new job (like that I wouldn’t need to be a project manager to move up in the future, something I don’t particularly want to do). Plus the more they talked about the new job, the more I felt excited about it while I’ve been struggling to stay interested in my current job. So, I decided to take the new job! I put in my two weeks notice and will be starting next month. My supervisor and co-workers have been excited for me too, which is really nice.

  195. Zoinks*

    For the past two weeks I’ve engaged a recruiter and had several interviews for new jobs trying to get out of my current Hell Job. After the first round of three separate interviews I was let go from my job. I’m okay with this, but what’s the best way to professionally explain this to my recruiter, who reached out to check in today?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Just be factual.

      “I was laid off/terminated from my position on DATE. I hope this doesnct affect my standing with NEW ROLE, as I am excited about [something specific you’ll be doing in the new role that helps the company and is a strength of yours].”

  196. I'm just here for the cats*

    I have 2 things, both kinda work-related. I have been making some really stupid minor mistakes with creating surveys and stuff. Just common typos. I think part of the reason is in my former jobs I was always rushed. I worked in a call center so we had very limited time between calls and so we abbreviated a lot and didn’t need to worry about minor things like typos, as long as it was clear. Now I’m doing a completely different job, admin assistant, and I’m not really on such a time crunch. Yes, things have to be done in a timely manner. But since my first jobs out of college were so rushed I still have this feeling when I’m working that I have to hurry up and get Task A done so I can move on to Task B. This is causing the typos. Has anyone else been in a similar situation and have any tips? It’s really causing me some anxiety.
    Secondly, my boss just said she wants me to use APA style for titles of our workshops. She pointed me to a blog with APA info but it didn’t help. and confused me more. I used MLA in college. Does anyone use APA for work and do you have any online resources? I plan to go to my local bookshop to see if they have anything but its a used shop so it can be hit or miss.

    1. Lyudie*

      I use APA for grad school! Google “purdue owl”, Purdue university has a great site that explains how to use APA. I also have the official APA style guide but honestly I go to OWL the most (and I have had multiple professors point us to it). It’s different from MLA in some ways…it’s a bit more structured as it tends to be used for research. Word also has an APA template that might be helpful for you.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      You can also try Citation Manager the website, or I’ve even used Word’s citation manager in a pinch.

    3. Jedi Squirrel*

      APA style for titles of our workshops

      I’m not sure what this means. APA/MLA usually refers to the format of a paper, how you structure your references, etc., etc., of a paper. Not sure that a workshop’s name can be any particular style, other than informal or formal.

      Definitely gonna second the Purdue OWL. It’s a great resource—the only one you really need for 98% of your work.

      1. I Love Grammar*

        APA means that all the words in the title except for the first word and proper nouns should be lowercase. I’m guessing that’s what she’s getting at.

        1. Jedi Squirrel*

          Oh, that makes sense. But from a marketing perspective, it seems a bit…odd?

          (I’m an MLA person, myself.)

  197. OtterB*

    I think it’s field-dependent whether you use APA, MLA, or something else. They do update the standards sometimes so a used copy may or may not be current. Although updates are usually things like “Here’s how to cite a technical-something-that-didn’t-used-to-exist,” not major changes in the standard conventions.

    Re the typos because you’re hurrying: can you plan for yourself that Task A is followed by Task A-1, which is to review everything in Task A for minor errors?

  198. SyFyScientist*

    Pronouns on email signatures. This is something I was thinking about based on the gender transitions thread this week. I’m trying to decide about balancing inclusivity vs. sexism in whether to put female gender pronouns on my email signature.
    I have an unusual ethnic name that has no obvious gender ending (like -a). It’s clear that people who haven’t met me don’t know what gender I am from my name, and also I’d like to be inclusive about making stating pronouns a work norm. So logically I should start including pronouns on my email sig.
    But…there’s definitely evidence that being perceived as female adds a layer of sexism and difficulty to work interactions, especially in this STEM and public serving field. I sometimes wonder if I have benefited from people assuming I’m male in email contacts. I don’t want to have constant conversations about whether or not I am an expert or the decision making authority (spoiler – I am).
    Anyone have experience adding female gender pronouns to their email address? Particularly in a STEM field or in dealing with the public about technical issues?

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I have found it very common to be mistaken for male professionally. My first name is common and 100% female in English-speaking/European cultures (imagine Catherine) but when we’re dealing with the Far East it seems our associates assume male as a courtesy.
      I have my pronouns in eg my Twitter bio so I’m comfortable with that convention iyswim. But it feels very weird to put them in my email signature for an international/out of that loop audience.

      I do mind being addressed as “Mr von Klinkerhoffen”, but I mind even more that the only way I’ve found to prevent that is to add “(Mrs)” to my signature:

      Yours sincerely
      Catherine von Klinkerhoffen (Mrs)

      And I mind EVEN MORE that “Mrs” is still recommended over “Ms”.

      tl;dr: this is very annoying, I agree, but I haven’t put pronouns there (yet?) and the only workaround I’ve found is not an improvement.

    2. PX*

      Late response but I think this is one thing that is all dependent on your personal comfort level. Personally, I’d be all about keeping my gender neutrality. As you say, the consequences of being obviously female in this part of your life may be greater than your desire to be inclusive. I say you can show inclusivity in other ways/by how you treat others!

  199. same boat*

    Does anyone have any advice for finding a new job when you literally have zero idea what you want to do? I hate the only real job I’ve ever had and I’m open to trying just about anything else. Is there a recruiter out there who sits down with job seekers and just tells them what they might be qualified for?

    1. Brooklyn Nine-Niner*

      Are you in/graduated from college? Your college major might be a big help in that. You could also think about your interests and passions, and consider if any of those could be turned into a career (and considering modern society, probably just about any interest can be turned into a viable career). For example, I managed to turn my love of politics into an internship in my state legislature, which often hires interns to paying positions.

      1. Same boat*

        I’m out of college and also have an MBA. I went to business school for uh not the best reasons as far as career planning. I was a polisci/history major in undergrad and That is what I’m genuinely interested in but part of the reason I ended up in business school was because most careers related to my major require an advanced degree and/or don’t pay well. When my interest is piqued I’m a quick learner and incredibly hard worker.

        1. Brooklyn Nine-Niner*

          If politics is what you’re interested in, there’s plenty of areas you could work in. Campaign advisors get paid a LOT of money, and since you have an MBA, maybe that could help you work in financial policy, either for a campaign, or in the government.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I was in that position! I think it’s pretty common tbh.

      I registered with a temping agency and did a handful of short-term assignments which showed me what kind of fields I didn’t want to work in, and ended up in a six-month maternity cover in a field I’d never even heard of, which turns out to suit me very well and which I’ve never left.

      A good temping agency can keep you employed even if you are skipping between jobs, so it’s relatively low-risk financially even if it is not great pay. If you are young enough to be on your parents’ insurance, or in a country with socialized medicine, temping can be a great way to test the water and find a good fit for you. At the very least, you learn what you DON’T suit.

      1. Same boat*

        I have been thinking about temping because it’s a way to get a foot in the door, prove myself and make connections I wouldn’t otherwise make. I did find one staffing agency that has candidates come to their office for an assessment apparently tries in earnest to place all candidates but it is mostly for receptionist/admin asst type jobs.

        1. valentine*

          Temping will let you see different offices and dynamics. I started out doing mailings and worked for a wide range of clients. I couldn’t appreciate it at the time because the lack of routine, constant newness, and commute were so hard.

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            Agreed. You learn a LOT about an industry by being the lowest peon in the office. You’ll see what kind of job looks attractive in the actual 9-5 (rather than in the careers presentation) and which obscure roles even exist.

  200. Vic tower*

    I hope I’m not too late to get any replies, something has been weighing on me all week!

    I’m 12 weeks pregnant (yay!) And last week when I was talking to my mother she said “I hope you don’t wear anything that shows the outline of your belly button” implying that to do so would be unprofessional! This was a totally new thought to me, but is it a thing? Should pregnant women be avoiding clothes that show the outline of their belly button in a work context? It seems crazy to me, but I welcome any thoughts from the rest of yall

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      (cis-gendered male, mid-30’s)

      Assuming we’re not talking about a bare belly, I don’t understand why this would be a problem. It’s your belly button. We all have one…

        1. valentine*

          Bellybuttons are cute and unlikely to harm your colleagues. If she means when it pops out, well, I hope no one’s going to design bellybutton tamers or similar BS.

    2. WellRed*

      Interesting question! Is she thinking along the lines of Does this fall along the same lines as visible nipples?

      1. Vic tower*

        Maybe? But I guess many people see breasts as inherently sexual whereas belly buttons really aren’t!

    3. Zona the Great*

      Nope. Never heard of that. But my grandmother says people used to be offended by seeing pregnant bellies. They wore lacy tents so as not to offend. Smh.

    4. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      It’s fine – many pregnant women find their navel will “pop” during the second or third trimester (mine just flattened out).

      In the olden days it was considered vulgar to show the shape of your pregnancy bump. Nowadays we’re far less coy and superstitious about pregnancy so you don’t have to wear a great draping tent.

      Very best of luck for 28 supremely uneventful and comfortable weeks to come.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Absent the context of pregnancy, it seems to me that anything clearly outlining the belly button is probably too form-fitting to wear to work, for my personal sensibilities, and I don’t know that I’d personally consider pregnancy a context that would change that? But I don’t know enough about physical changes during pregnancy to say if that’s reasonable.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        One of the biggest reasons it makes sense to give pregnant people a lot more slack in terms of social norms around clothes is that their body shape and size is changing much more quickly than usual. Most people who aren’t pregnant, even if they’re actively gaining or losing weight as a major personal project, will have clothes that fit them roughly the same from week to week, and will maybe need minor tweaks in a month or two. Since most people will wear the same size clothes for durations upward of 6 months to a year, the business convention is that those clothes should fit them well, being neither too tight or too loose.

        Pregnant people will have their body size change substantially month to month during their pregnancy, and it’s not practical to always have a full set of clothes that perfectly fit that particular stage of pregnancy (neither too tight or too loose) since it’s such a moving target. These are also clothes the person probably doesn’t already have and has to go out and buy, so the tendency is to try to buy clothes a bit loose to “grow into” and wear them until you’ve outgrown them a bit and they’re tighter than you’d usually wear to work to get more wear out of that piece on each end (similar to how a lot of people buy/rotate clothes for children). I’ve also known some people who were just DONE being pregnant by week 37 or so and were NOT going to buy any more new maternity clothes because the baby was coming out soon, and would just continue to wear the few remaining things they had left that kind of fit rather than buy yet another set of new clothes they’d barely get a chance to wear.

        Particularly in the belly area, it makes sense to cut someone a lot of slack about the exact fit of their clothes while their body is changing that much.

  201. Brooklyn Nine-Niner*

    Not sure if you’ll see this, Alison, but I was in a similar situation as the person who’s letter you answered a month ago about not having a lot to do at their internship. Like that writer, I had very little to do at mine (which was surprising, as it’s uncommon at a state legislature like the one I work at to not have much to do), but I took your advice and was able to talk to my supervisor about it, so thank you! I’ll let you all know if it worked next week!

  202. Ain't Miss Behavin'*

    I’m a p0lice recruiter. We just finished a round of testing for our current application process (for police officers). We run two test sessions a day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, for four days. Our goal is to get the people who pass written testing into an interview the same week, and out-of-state applicants into an interview the same day or the next day as they take the written test.

    I’ve been doing this for 2 years now. My partner and I handle the entire application and hiring process. During testing, we both proctor and score the tests, and we tell the applicants right away if they’re moving forward or not. She takes the people who aren’t moving forward, and gives them feedback about how they can improve. I take the people who do pass, and schedule them for an interview. I try to be as accommodating as possible and get them in to an interview time that works best for them, but I just end up screwing myself because something always gets messed up. After each test session, I schedule the out-of-state people from the session first, and then go in descending order of scores. I call them up and show them a table with our available interview times and dates, and have them write their names in the slot (I used to write their names myself but that caused problems too and I found it to be better to make them responsible for that part).

    This week, I had two major screwups: I inadvertently scheduled an interview over one interview panel’s break. They’re going to do it, but it’ll be a very long, grueling day without a break. The second screwup was that I got to talking to a candidate while we were scheduling her, and I didn’t make sure she wrote her name in her chosen slot. So, to fix a third problem, I switched another candidate to that slot and they both showed up for their interview today at the same time.

    How do others schedule their interviews? Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can organize this better? I think we might be shooting ourselves in the foot by trying to rush it like we do, but it’s a good selling point for us and helps us compete with other agencies, especially if the candidate has applied to several. My husband thinks I should just tell them when they’re interviewing and not give them a choice of slots, but I want to respect the fact that people have lives and give them as much opportunity as I can to get in. Another suggestion was to make all the out-of-staters test the same day and then it wouldn’t be so imperative to get everyone else in right away, but again, what if an out-of-state candidate can’t make it that way?

    Help?

    1. Brooklyn Nine-Niner*

      For my internship that I’m currently doing, the people running the internship program set up a page on a website that does scheduling and stuff; they emailed us and told us to enter our names into an available timeslot there. I don’t remember what the website was called, but I can probably look it up if you want.

      2. Fikly*

        Yes, something internet based that will warn you of conflicts (like a break) and won’t let you finish without scheduling an interview will solve this for you.

  203. Gumby*

    At my job we need to track hours spent on each project even though most people are salaried. We use past project performance to predict future performance and also use it to do things like set prices, judge whether a product is profitable, etc.

    There exist categories that you can use to report your time when you are not working on a specific project – like overhead. But there is also a culture to avoid being on OH too much. That is normally not a bad thing and it is not like anyone gets fired for too much OH or anything, but it does look like you aren’t busy, etc.

    There is an employee who has a specialized skill set that we absolutely need. She tried to retire recently (early, she’s under 65) and was basically begged to stay at least part time. She agreed to work 4 days/week and we were all thrilled. However, she now has the tendency to report any time not actively on a separate project on Project TEAPOT under the reasoning that “Project TEAPOT is the main reason I am here so they should pay for my time.” But, honestly, much of the time really should be OH. It makes it look like Project TEAPOT is losing money hand-over-fist AND means when we try to figure out how much we should charge for teapots we are working with really really bad data. This has been explained, and she agrees that it’s sub-optimal, but doesn’t change what she does! There has been discussion of starting a new charge line just for her, a basically “available to TEAPOT project but not actively working on it” thing – which is essentially what OH is already for. The normal advice would be to have her manager say “we’ve discussed this and yet you are still doing the bad thing what is up?” etc. But there is no option of ‘shape up or ship out’ since we absolutely do need that skill set and it is not easy to find. We’ve been advertising for her replacement for months (at least 6) and have not yet come close. Any other ideas? I am not her manager, but am in a position to offer suggestions to the manager. Said manager is somewhat conflict averse, but can be prevailed upon.

    1. CM*

      From reading the description, it sounds like your coworker believes (either rightly or wrongly) that Project TEAPOT is meant to be paying her both for the time she works on Project TEAPOT and the time she’s idle with no projects at all. Like I said, that could be right or wrong — I don’t know what the terms of the new agreement were when they asked her to stay. But, if that’s what she believes, and the way these tasks are coded determines whose budget her salary comes out of, it would explain why she’s not calling it overhead.

      If, in fact, she’s not supposed to record it that way, and it IS supposed to be overhead for billing purposes, someone from accounting should ask her to record it differently, or ask her manager to ask her to record it differently. If it’s NOT supposed to be overhead for billing purposes, and recording it this way is creating a problem for the project manager by throwing off the statistics, the solution of creating a new code seems like the way to go.

      If it’s a really weird situation where accounting has already explained that she needs to record it as overhead and, for some reason, she just won’t do it, creating a separate code for her could still be the way to go, since it would clean up confusion in the system while you’re waiting to hire someone else. Alternatively, her manager could possibly re-code some of the entries if that’s allowed — again, while you’re waiting to hire someone else.

      In this last scenario — where she just weirdly refuses to code stuff the way accounting is asking her to, and there’s no real reason for it — the company’s objective isn’t really to change that behavior. She already doesn’t want to work there anymore, so there’s not a lot you can do if normal appeals for cooperation don’t succeed. You might just have to find ways of working around it for the time being.

      1. valentine*

        She needs to do what she’s told and you need to replace her, anyway, so I hope a lot of energy is going into that. Let her enjoy her golden years!

    2. LGC*

      Prevail upon the manager.

      It looks like the only two options you’ve presented are “work around this woman’s quirks” and “fire her.”But it seems like no one has told her that she can’t keep doing what she’s doing – mostly because you’re afraid to lose her. And I get it – she’s great. She has unique skills and doesn’t need the job. So that makes you feel powerless against her. But also, she’s making things more difficult than they need to be, and even though you need her more than she needs you, you get to say that she can’t be a pain in the butt.

      But also, it sounds like she thinks that the time tracking is used for pay, and not just for internal research. I’d make it clear that reporting OH shouldn’t affect her pay whatsoever, since it sounds like she thinks they pull money from each project to pay her.

  204. IntoTheSarchasm*

    Probably too late but worth a shot. My office has twice yearly on-site meetings for staff in other states or those that work remotely from home. This year, it is the week of the Presidential election here in the US. I brought this up when I discovered it at our last on-site in November 2019, and was told by a VP at my table (not my VP), that “it is easy to get an absentee ballot.” I emailed my VP that this very thoughtless and never received a response although another employee did a few weeks ago, that response being that the meeting can’t be changed. This probably affects 30 or so staff that are away from home and 30 more that will find it difficult to get to the polls due to meeting obligations although it will be possible to get there. I know some people use absentee ballots quite a lot, but I live in a rural area where waits aren’t much of a problem so I just go vote. This is a national election and feel it is important to be able to engage in the process without interference. In 209, also, the meeting was election day/week as well but not a national election, local only. Just interested in feedback as it has upset several of us. Note that this is health care related and we are also often asked to write letters to our legislators related to health care laws/regulations. This seems a little contradictory. Thanks!

    1. Brooklyn Nine-Niner*

      The election is 8 months away (unless you’re talking about primaries, in which case it may be too late), so getting an absentee ballot shouldn’t be an issue. That said, if you really feel it’s important that you vote in person (I know I personally do), then your state (or the state the company is in) may have laws against preventing employees from voting. If so, you might want to bring that to the company’s attention and ask that they reschedule.

    2. Laura H.*

      Check early voting as well! In my state it’s roughly about 2 full 5 day weeks preceding the election. I’ve done early vote for all except a handful.

      But yeah if it’s for the general election in November, there’s plenty of time to ensure you can vote.

    3. Fikly*

      I would check your state laws about absentee ballots.

      The issue may not just be the time to get one (you have time) but often, they are only counted if the results are close, and you may or may not be happy about that. By essentially requiring you to use an absentee ballot to vote if you are going to vote, your company is potentially denying you the right to have your vote counted if you wouldn’t have used an absentee ballot, if you live in one of these states.

    4. LGC*

      I’m…actually more on the VP’s side than I thought I’d be.

      For starters, the VP was very thoughtless in their response. It’s very “let them eat cake.” But also…the VP isn’t wrong, since a lot of different states have different regulations. I’m from New Jersey, so while I don’t have early voting, it is fairly easy to get an absentee ballot. In New York, it’s historically been much more difficult (I’m not sure if they recently changed it, but it would have been in the past couple of years). In California and especially Washington, the majority of voting is through mail. And in a lot of Midwestern and Southern states, there’s in-person early voting. So I do think that in most states in 2020, the company isn’t stopping you from voting or even making it that much more difficult. Plus, given that you named the sector you worked in, I can definitely see why the first week of November would be the best time to have an on-site. It’s the end of the year! You have open enrollment on Healthcare.gov! Benefits are changing! And also, you’re advocating changing an entire meeting for 60+ people. That’s a huge change.

      That said…again, what the VP said is super insensitive. You might be able to advocate for smaller changes – like, not scheduling a ton of meetings on Tuesday, for example. That’d help the 30 local employees, at least. You don’t say how long the on-site is, but…if it’s generally three or fewer days, it might be feasible to shift it a few days so it falls after Election Day. I’m not sure how easy it would be (again, 60+ people, 30 remotes, and the housing requirements for such), but it would be slightly less of a lift than if it were the entire week.

      Finally – I really want to discount the fact that local elections aren’t important (or that federal elections are especially important). Again, I’m from New Jersey, so our state elections are off-year (governor a year after presidential, assembly and senate a year before). But if I’ve learned anything from the past ten years, it’s that often it’s less important what the federal government is doing than what the states are doing, or even what local governments are doing. (And yes, part of that is by design, but also – y’all, go vote in your local elections too!)

      1. Fikly*

        The date for this meeting was clearly planned well in advance, and it’s not like the date of election day is a secret.

        Not only is the response insensitive, but the timing is.

        Agreed, though, local elections are super important, both because the results will often have more impact on your day to day life, and because the results are more frequently impacted by just a few votes.

        1. LGC*

          True, but I’m imagining having to reschedule hotel rooms, any meeting space, etc. I do feel like Sarchasm’s point is valid! But I’m also thinking…they’re in the healthcare sector, and a lot of stuff might go down year-end depending on what Sarchasm does exactly. Like, ideally the company would reschedule it, but I’m not sure how feasible it’d be to do so for this year, unfortunately. Unfortunately, Sarchasm might just have to deal with their company’s thoughtlessness this year.

          That said, I assumed that Sarchasm wanted them to change when the on-site was held this year, which sounds like a huge lift. So that’s where I’m coming from.

    5. it happens*

      You are right that the cross-scheduling is an issue. Luckily, there is plenty of time to mitigate it. For the remote employees, be sure to include a statement about Election Day and making alternate arrangements to vote according to their state regs. And for local folk, if the meeting could start later to allow people to vote before work, but without changing their morning routine (people have kids, etc.) that would be great. Unless you’re in a state with easy absentee voting, in which case, encourage all to do so. And they should vote. Fewer people vote in local elections so each vote is critical, and will be counted.
      (My job used to require a lot of international travel and twice I booked hotel spaces and video equipment so anyone in our group who wanted to could watch the returns. It was actually pretty fun.)

    6. IntoTheSarchasm*

      Thanks for the responses. to clarify, end-of year timing isn’t a factor – it is just six months from or other on-site, there are no end of year reasons. Staff make their own travel arrangements and stay at a variety of local hotels, that is not an issue. We do book a large room at the home office for a few days and there is a bit of catering with the in-house catering but easily adjusted as we have been doing this for years the same way. There are a few speakers but I am sure they haven’t even started lining those up yet. The meeting is three days – Tuesday-Thursday to leave Monday and Friday for travel.
      I am fairly aware of early voting and absentee voting and do not have an issue with doing that if truly needed. I am more perplexed by the need to have the meeting this week and lack of answers as to why it has to be when it will prevent people from participating in some election activities if they like of just watching the returns at home.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        FWIW, I feel like the timing of the meeting is tin-eared at best and evil at worst. I wish you all the luck in pushing back on it.

  205. NotJohn*

    Today I received an email to set up a second interview for a job I really want. The recruiter used my correct name in her email. I wrote back right away that I was excited about the opportunity and gave my availability for the second interview. The recruiter replied immediately “Great, thanks John!” But that’s not my name; I’m a woman and my name’s not closely that. I’m concerned now because she hasn’t sent me an email confirming the interview. How long should I wait before I email back to verify that she knows my reply came from me!

    1. Ain't Miss Behavin'*

      She was probably communicating with another candidate named John right before your email, and conflated the two; I’ve done that. When she schedules you, she’ll refer to your email for the availability and probably won’t even remember she called you John in her ‘sent’ email. Monday is a holiday (not sure if this is relevant to the recruiters schedule though). If you don’t hear from her by Tuesday afternoon I’d contact her, unless your interview would have been scheduled sooner than that. In that case I’d contact her Monday afternoon.

  207. Stephanie Young*

    Hello,
    I have a scenario, I am trying to figure out. I have worked on a small team for 2 years now. I have brought a unique skill set to the team as it was a downward step on the ladder after I received a diagnosis of PTSD and needed a break from high stress work while I worked on myself. Recently, my manager has been giving me more things to do and has encouraged me to grow and expand our teams ability to contribute to the organization as a whole. I have done so willingly. Today, my manager asked me to talk and informed me that I need to stop taking other team members work without asking, to stop working more than 40 hours a week (we are exempt from overtime) and that she has received a complaint for a team member that I have turned our team into a competition. First, I don’t do anyone else’s work without asking if they need help and having them tell me explicitly what they need help with (example: can you do these cases for me). I don’t even work 35 hours a week let alone 40. I ask my manager for more work every day and she doesn’t have it to give or if she does, I wait for hours for it. The competition thing really bothers me, because I detest competition in a team environment. I believe we all succeed together or not at all. I help pick up the slack when people are on vacation. I am in school to get my MBA and have a family. I don’t have the time to work more than 40 hours. How should I handle this? I calmly explained to my manager how things have been going from my perspective and she thinks it was a misunderstanding. Any recommendations of what to do?

    1. Oompah*

      My first recommendation is to try and really understand where that feedback came from. Is there a valid reason why someone else might perceive you that way even if that’s not your intention? I ask because so many times I’ve given feedback to people when there were legit reasons for it; and they become too defensive to see someone else’s perspective. It’s both human and understandable to feel defensive in response to criticism. But if you are, in fact, doing certain things to rub people the wrong way – however unintentionally – it’s in your best interests to try to understand where they are coming from and assess whether you need to make any changes. And look, maybe after an honest reflection you come to a conclusion that the feedback was not valid (because sometimes it isn’t) – but at least consider it from the other person’s perspective.

      You can also approach your colleague who made the complaint? It’s so easy to miscommunicate when the message goes via an intermediary. Whatever you do, I encourage you to go with an open mind.

    2. Fikly*

      I would first approach the issue that seems to be the easiest to look at objectively – how many hours are you working per week? This seems a weird thing to be confused about. Can you ask your manager where they got the impression that you are working more than 40 hours a week from? How many hours you work is not a matter of perspective.

      1. Darren*

        I suspect it’s a “Stephanie always has all of her tasks done and is actively asking the boss for more, while I’m struggling to get through half the workload in a week they must be working more hours, and must be trying to do it to make herself look good and the rest of us look bad by comparison” situation.

        In reality likely the time in the higher level role has just made Stephanie more efficient at her work and more able to solve work effectively. I would suggest to stop asking the boss for more work every day, that is something under your control and is likely the main catalyst for their complaint (as it’s making it visibly obvious you are getting more done then them and is what’s making it feel like you are competing with them).

        Instead I would suggest taking your 1-1’s with your manager and setting up some larger projects/goals that you can work on when your normal work is at a lower ebb that will have value add for the business. You shouldn’t need to be asking for extra work daily, you should have a longer term project trying to make things more efficient for everyone that you are working on in those hours. I don’t know enough about your role in indicate what that might be but you should talk to you manager and work out something.

  208. FlyingAway*

    I could use some advice. I planned to submit a job application today and it’s due tomorrow. I went on the website to finish to off to find out it’s unavailable due to maintenance until Monday— there was no email notification of this. Should I contact the hiring manager first thing on Monday to ask if i can still submit? I really want a chance to apply and I’m frustrated that I had the timing planned out and spent ages working on it to be stopped by technology.

    1. Reba*

      Can you email your materials directly to the hiring manager, or to an HR email or similar, perhaps with a screenshot of the maintenance message?

      I’d write that you are excited to apply, had noted the closing date, and you hope that they will get your application into the system. (I bet you are not the only one.)

      But I think you should also be prepared to ignore it, which is a bummer.

    2. Kathenus*

      You might also want to take a screen shot of the website message that it’s unavailable, in case there is any question about that aspect. Good luck.

    3. Same boat*

      I agree with the comments of the other 2 posters.

      You might also be able to find the hiring manager or a recruiter by doing some LinkedIn searching?

      Career websites are AWFUL. I was working on an application today that doesn’t allow a save and exit. So after it uploaded and butchered my resume and I fixed it and answered all their other crap the website timed out and deleted everything. I was not aware this was going to happen.

  209. myrtle*

    Please help! What do I do?
    My boss has become increasingly micro-managy with the whole team–not just myself. Directives have been given, then taken back and changed, as well as not letting us know protocol for something, then reprimanding us for not knowing the protocol and telling us after the fact.
    Examples:
    1. Our day must be documented–basically each minute has to be accounted for in order for the boss to know what we’re doing. (The boss says this is for “productivity” purposes.) This documentation is not required by our company or even our department.

    2. We share our calendars, which is not abnormal. But if we put a tenative schedule on the calendar, the boss has decided it is not tenative and it is set–and the boss also told me that we would start printing out calendars at the end of each week to prove what our original schedule (set by ourselves, not the boss) was.

    3. We are salary employees, but the boss implemented a sign in sheet that we must utilize any time we leave the office and come back. I felt, personally, it would be more efficient for us to just check in with the boss throughout the day, as I have done with other supervisors. This was framed as a safety issue–when we all know it’s for tracking purposes.

    4. We have no time to do the important work because our boss expects us to always be out making numbers, and has turned the people into numbers. This concerns me as I work in the social service sector and I have a high ethical belief that we should focus on the individual and not make them a number.

    I’m not sure what to do and we are all becoming disgruntled–we were all hired around the same time and it’s only been a short amount of time for all of us. My boss also talks down to a lot of us and has no tact in written communication. I believe in following chain of command but I don’t know that boss would be open to discussion.

  210. Risk Hesitant*

    I’m a data scientist, full-time at Very Large Corporation. I am significantly underpaid for the level of work I’m doing and nearly ten years experience in the field. As a point of comparison, there are plenty of contract agencies that are offering my annual salary for 2 years experience, at 40 hours week / 40 weeks of work a year. I also have a side consulting business. I would like to spend more time on that, and my contacts at Other Large Corporations have indicated interest in my services.

    I’m seriously considering quitting my full time job, going to local contract work to keep a steady income, and spending more time developing my business. Spouse works full time, we live well beneath our means, and have benefits through my spouse so that’s not a concern. My big question is, if my consulting business doesn’t take off and I get tired of being Random Data Science Contractor, will this look bad if I try to go back to being a corporate drone in a year or three? I know there are a lot of perma-temps who wish they could get a full-time job, so this seems a little crazy on the surface of it. BUT, the allure of doubling my pay (or more) in independent consulting is pretty strong.

    1. Darren*

      If you are doing the right kinds of contracts you shouldn’t be less hireable afterwards. You’ll have in demand skills and you can just speak to wanting:
      * More stability of income
      * More exposure to this specific tool/technique that is something this company would give you that contracting wouldn’t
      Or any of a number of other things. Transitioning back to a regular job from contracting is pretty common especially in tech.

      1. Risk Hesitant*

        Thanks for the vote of confidence. I have heard plenty of horror stories of people stuck as permanent contractors. I was afraid I’d make people wonder “why did they quit Giant Corp? Could they not hack it?”

  211. WalkedInMyShoes*

    Update: I finally transitioned out of my job last Sept. I really thought that I would land something by now. I spent all of Sept. And Oct. Taking classes studying for the SHRM-SCP in Dec., traveling getting a puppy, then enjoyed the holidays. I had several great interviews, but no offers. I recently was asked for references for the job that was it. They never reached to my references (didn’t list my former manager because we did not see eye-to-eye, but had strong ones from other executives in the company). Then, I received an email of thank you but we have decided on the other candidate. I am so disheartened. I know that I have an amazing background and previous experiences. However, I am starting to wonder whether my former manager or someone from my former employer has said negative things through back references to my prospective employer. Should I pay for a professional check reference company to see what my former employer? Or am I being too paranoid? It’s been the longest that I have been out of a job. I picked up little consulting projects but no long-term ones. I am so bummed. Any thoughts to keep my outlook positive and to keep going.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        I assume you mean have a friend pretend to be someone interested in hiring WalkedInMyShoes and call to check the reference.

  212. Anon Anon Anon*

    if you’re in a situation where you’ve explained something but then later realized part of the information was wrong (but it doesn’t actually impact anything critically) is it worth going back and reexplaining or is that just being annoying about details? Like you’re trying to explain why x needs to happen but part of the explanation wasn’t entirely correct and x would have happened regardless? Especially when they have other shit to do and it’s likely not that important to them? But I don’t know for sure what they might think if they realize I was “wrong” about that detail?

    1. 653-CXK*

      I had something similar happen to me…

      On Monday, I had an innocuous question from a member of the Accounting department to put together a spreadsheet for their department that’s related to what I do monthly. The Grandboss asked for a forecast of payments made last month and this month, and I figured it was easy enough to do. I began doing it…and it turns out (after several desperate emails) that the spreadsheet was due stat and the original was last done in September after my boss had left the company, and hadn’t been updated since then.

      I thought Grandboss wanted something similar to what I gave him last September – until my boss stepped in.
      After my first iteration, my boss and I had a look at it. Then a second iteration, in which we found a few more mistakes. When I showed it to her the third time, I had clean forgotten some of the items she and I went over the day before, and she was losing her patience. After she showed me what she really meant (and I don’t come from an accounting background like she does), it became clear, and it took me less than an hour to clean everything up. She and I put together the final touches, and everything was fine.

      The kicker? Grandboss and I were supposed to have a meeting with my boss and the budgeting director. It ended up getting cancelled – either Grandboss and budgeting director were busy with other things, or figured it out and didn’t need the meeting.

    2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I would err on the side of explaining. You never know how important a particular gap could be to the other person.

      Send an email — both to avoid disturbing the other person and also to have an “email trail” of your efforts to correct your mistake.

  213. Annoyed Anon*

    Longtime reader & first time ask-er here:
    Having an issue with credit/visibility & a colleague, a peer whose main “lane” is adjacent to mine but not overlapping. Users and some decision makers get our lanes confused, and some don’t realize there is a difference at all. We are both female, same level in heirarchy, & we report to different directors. She’s an IC not responsible for or interested in compliance & I liaise with various departments & manage a small team working in a couple of very regulated functional areas.

    I’m now aware that higherups are surprised that people are working with me on MY OWN DOMAINS because “that’s Colleague’s job.” It’s not. She does now redirect questions to me when needed but it took months to get there & it’s per user so that message hasn’t trickled up.

    I’m concerned that if staffing decisions were made based on what people think we do, it would not go well for me.

    She executes/makes a thing happen technologically. I train & implement. For things that affect my areas of responsibility *I am responsible* for ensuring that doing the thing 1) is compliant, 2) not duplicative, and 3) that the thing is then used consistently & w/o negative downstream effects (fits current workflows or identify changes that’ll be needed & having stakeholders weigh in).
    #3 not formally my responsibility but is something I do because she often does not check those first before starting to program a solution, or it sometimes fails on item 1 or 2 because those weren’t on her radar.

    The distinction between our lanes is similar to technical support when the program behaves unexpectedly (plus some basic training on common functions) vs training users on how they will use it & ensuring that the program is used in the ways that are required/fitted to the workflows for the specific tasks for which the user is responsible.

    There are two plugin type applications that only I deal with, which users often think are part of the main program but which my colleague does not support.

    Her newer 2nd “lane” is an area I’d been in charge of simply because no one else was assigned. The handoff of this was announced months ago but I am still doing the majority of it & Colleague “hasn’t had time” to get official in-depth training from the 2 vendors involved. Last month she arranged for 1 vendor to do regular calls every 2 weeks with us while she gets up to speed, and brought end users in to the call WAY before it makes sense.
    It’d be like if all the level 1 tech support reps were at a “you just bought a new ticketing system, here’s what it’s capable of” meeting that the IT director & manager would be in so they can start looking at how it makes sense for their groups to use it.

    This week I was the only “super user” on a fairly unproductive call because Colleague was too busy. She told me she’d get the notes from me later. I would rather not be “assigned” notetaking duties by a peer & I’d rather either totally drop that task as of right now OR own the task outright than hand it off & just have it boomerang back to me w/o getting credit. Which is where I see this heading.

    Has anyone had success with clarifying who does what so that it’s known at higher levels in a case like this? Our bosses confirm these are the lanes intended, but there was no official Annoyed Anon vs Colleague responsibility breakdown sent around or anything.

    1. Darren*

      The do indeed sound like entirely different roles. The confusion is interesting and some of it might imply that your Colleague is actually supposed to be working with you closer (i.e. she should be working with you to find a compliant solution, instead of just coming up with a solution and then leaving it to you to work out how to make it compliant). Given you say your roles are the same level but she is an IC and you a manager that also tracks with her being expected to take on much more of this.

      The most important thing is to make sure your manager is aware of what you are doing. If handover is taking longer than expected you need to be raising it with them, and they need to raise it higher. You don’t want to find out that they think the handover is finished and Colleague is handling it right. So make it clear during your check-ins what the situation actually is, that Colleague has been busy so you’ve still been handling X% of that task and handover looks like it will still be several months out.

      You might hear that no she has to be handling it because they need you to handle another thing, and handover needs to be complete in the next 2 weeks. You need to be more proactive raising the current status, it shouldn’t be a surprise to the senior members of your company what you are doing.

      I’m also (from the bringing end users in too early) thinking that Colleague doesn’t want to take on this responsibility it has just been handed to her so she wants to get it handed off to users as soon as possible so it’s no longer on her plate. You need to make sure that you don’t get overly roped in by users to deal with their issues as she is “busy” and/or uncooperative. I don’t want to judge too harshly but she seems to be trying to do all the visible tasks that can be big wins on her performance reviews, while handing off to you anything not interesting/visible.

  214. Dwight K. Schrute*

    I recently got offered a promotion in my department (different team, different senior management, but same department). I mainly took the job to get away from my micromanaging manager, and because this would be a great step up and salary boost. For clarification, I went from Beets Farm Program Coordinator to Beets Farm Associate Manager.

    The job isn’t what I expected. My manager is great, but the work is A LOT with little work-life balance. I was job searching before I got this job, and I want to continue job searching while I have this job. My question is, what is an acceptable time period from when I take job to accepting another job?

    1. Close Bracket*

      All time periods are acceptable time periods. The question is how to explain the job search for a given time period. If you just started, I wouldn’t mention that you are currently employed and would look for ways to explain leaving the old job without mentioning the new job. I would take this tack for months 0-3 (ish). For months 4-9 on the new job, explain job hunting by saying the new job wasn’t what you thought it would be. For months 9-12, I would put job hunting on pause until you have been there a year. After a year, you are good to use the usual excuses of looking for new opportunities, interest in the new company explicitly, etc.

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