open thread – February 21-22, 2020

by Alison Green on February 21, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Just Peachy*

    My boss has been interrupting my lunch break lately for things that she is fully capable of handling, and it’s driving me nuts! I am a customer service specialist at a chemical supply company, and have been here for 4 years. I am an hourly employee, required to work 7:30-4:30 with an hour long lunch. My primary responsibility is placing customer orders (mostly over the phone). If it matters, I am a high performer and have always received excellent reviews.

    Yesterday, I had been clocked out for lunch for 5 minutes, and was sitting in the break room eating and reading a book, when my manager walked in. She said “sorry to interrupt, but I have someone on the phone asking for you. I think it’s Customer X.” 99% of the time when a customer is asking for me by name, it’s because the customer has spoken to me on the phone previously when placing an order and simply needs to place another order (not because I have some unique job skills that the customer needs from me specifically). My manager, and the other customer service specialist are perfectly capable of handling these calls when I’m at lunch (and that has always been the expectation in the past). Anyway, I responded to my manager with “oh…okay. Is there something specific that she needs from me?” (knowing darn well there wasn’t). She said “oh, I don’t know, I didn’t ask, but she asked for you by name, so I figured you’d been working with her on something.” I said, “no, I haven’t been working with her on anything, she probably just needs to place an order.” My manager said “well, can you just take it to be sure? I just don’t want to mess anything up that you’d be working on with her.” Mess what up?! I again reiterated that there was nothing I’d been working on with Customer X, but that I could take the call. As anticipated, the customer just needed to place an order. I popped my head into my manager’s office after I was done and said “yeah, she just needed to place an order.” My manager said, “oh, okay, sorry I had to interrupt your lunch.” I wanted to scream, “you didn’t have to interrupt my lunch! You chose to!” Similar incidents of her interrupting me at lunch have occurred over the past couple of months (4-5 other times). I should also mention that she’s not interrupting me because she’s extremely busy – she frequently points out how she’s happy to have a decent amount of downtime (we recently had a reorg company wide, so a lot of her previous duties were recently passed along to our corporate office). Even if she were busy, we have another customer service rep who is available when I’m at lunch.

    If the roles were reversed and I had interrupted my manager’s lunch with a call, she’d be ticked. She would say, “well, is it something you can help with?” or, “just put it in my voicemail”, or, “did you even ask what they were calling about?” (which is especially comical considering she didn’t ask for any context of the call she passed along to me.) Do I have reason to push back here, or am I overreacting? I did tack on the extra time at the end of my lunch to make up for the part that I’d been interrupted, but it still irks me!

    Part of me thinks I just need to start going home for lunch (I live about 15 minutes away), but at the same time, I feel like my lunch break should be treated as if I’m not there, whether I’m 50 feet away in the break room, or whether I leave the office. Am I being unreasonable about this? If not is there a way I can put a stop to this? I’m honestly not sure why my manager has even been doing this lately – she’s been my manager the whole time I’ve worked here, and she didn’t start interrupting me until recently. Thanks in advance!

    2. Pretty pretty good*

      Could you just say – thanks, please tell her I’ll call her back when my lunch is over. And if she balks at that – please ask coworker to take the call?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This – I would start here. And no, OP, you are not being unreasonable to want to take your full break as an hourly employee. Your boss is running afoul of labor laws though.

    3. WellRed*

      For starters, make sure you add that additional time to your lunch. I also can’t tell if you’d explicitly said, “I’m on my lunch break right now,” even though it’s obvious. Is she reasonable enough that you can ask her why she’s started doing this? If not, yeah, maybe be less visible at lunch, at least until she breaks this new habit.

      2. Ace in the hole*

        That’s a nope from me. As an hourly employee, I don’t mind my breaks being interrupted once in a while for things that are actual emergencies. For example, I’m part of the spill response team. If there’s a chemical release on my lunch break you bet I don’t mind helping out. Or if a coworker in a coverage-required position had to leave for a personal emergency and they need someone to fill in until they can find a sub? Sure thing. Even in a properly managed business these things happen every so often.

        But petty pointless interruptions for things that could easily be handled by someone else… or could easily wait? That is never okay. It’s illegal, and sets a bad precedent. This means that when she clocks out she’s mentally still stuck at work, since she doesn’t know if her boss is going to come interrupt.

    5. bunniferous*

      Depending on your relationship, could you maybe just come out and ask her (at a different time than your lunch break of course. ) If this is a recent behavior change there has to be a reason.

    6. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Check your local labor laws. Most places have legally mandated break lunch periods and it would be illegal for her to ask you to do work during that time. Remind her of this, and next time, refuse on the basis of ‘protecting her & the company from liability’. Obviously, you just have their best interest at heart!

      Alternatively, if you are worried about retaliation, contact your HR dept. about this issue.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        This. I work this kind of schedule and my employer is very, very, clear that when I am clocked out for lunch, I am functionally not here (even if I’m at my desk) and am definitely not to do any work. It’s no different than if I left the building and were literally not available.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Absolutely. When I was an hourly non-exempt employee almost 10 years ago at a very poorly run law firm, our lunch hours were sacred. No one asked us to work during our lunch hour when we were clocked out, and if we had been caught working through lunch, we’d get written up.

          That place was a dumpster fire in a lot of ways, but they did not play with those legally mandated breaks.

      2. kittymommy*

        This. Unless they are paying you for that time, you should not (and in some places cannot) be helping customers/taking calls/working at all. Assuming you are non-exempt, which as a CSR in a call center is probable, your company could get into serious trouble for this. And remember, if she’s doing it to you, she’s doing it to others.

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This this this this this.

        Here if you are expected to be “on call” during your lunch, you can’t make it an “unpaid” lunch break. Or if you want to play that game, the time starts over again once you are required to “work”.

        It’s not illegal unless they refuse to pay so it’s a PAY ME for working moment.

      4. DeeEm*

        Depending on your state, your employer CAN interrupt your lunch hour, but may have to pay you additional time (For example: one hour’s pay) and if it’s routine, then it can become a bigger issue. If you’re not getting at least a 30 minute uninterrupted lunch break in most states, that’s likely a violation of the law. You could let her politely know. Alison has many scripts on such conversations.

    7. blink14*

      Ugh this annoying! I deal with this sometimes, partially because our current office space doesn’t have a dedicated break room, so I end up taking lunch at an empty desk, and I also read during my lunch break. In the other spaces I’ve been while at this employer, there has only been one with a kitchen big enough for tables, and it was at the opposite end of the floor from my work space, and I was interrupted far less.

      Given that I’m taking lunch in an open work space, I try to block out all noise and foot traffic. I’ll only interact if someone specifically asks me a question. My boss does occasionally interrupt me, but it’s usually a quick notice about something, and occasionally a very important question.

      Options: start clocking that interrupted time as work time. Or, talk to your boss and see if you can gently ask to not be interrupted on your break – because you are paid hourly, you have more of a leg up on this than those who are salaried (If I get interrupted for a long period of time, I’ll extend my lunch period if I can, but I’m salaried). Explain that the interruptions should really be counted as work time.

    8. Laura*

      This used to happen me all the time at my old jobs. I took to taking my lunch to my car and eating there. Otherwise, I’d be interrupted 2-5 times PER lunch break. If they are able to interrupt you once, they’ll keep doing it, over and over.

      Your mileage may vary.

    9. Myrin*

      I’m very intrigued that this only started recently – can you think of anything at all that’s changed around the same time where she started doing this (something to do with the reorg, possibly?)?

      In any case, I don’t see why you can’t simply ask her about it, saying that you’ve been noticing this and have been wondering what’s going on.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        I’m wondering this too. Are there performance issues that you know of with the other person who does your job?

        1. Krabby*

          I’m not sure it’s that much of a mystery: there was a recent re-org that’s giving the manager a lot of downtime, and now she’s twiddling her thumbs most of the day.
          I don’t know what it is, but a lot of people who get into that head space start delegating more, not less. It’s like, the more free time you have, the more you hoard it. I would guess that’s what’s happening here. The boss has to context switch out of relaxation mode every time she answers the phone, so she’s taking the easy road and passing it off.

          1. Richard Hershberger*

            This is spot on. There is something debilitating about too much down time, even when you don’t have to pretend to work.

          2. CM*

            This sounds right to me. The manager got used to not having to deal with the callers and is enthusiastically grabbing the first excuse she has to pawn them off. I used to work in a call centre where this was a semi-common strategy — “Oh, they asked for you by name so I assume they need something super specific and it would just waste time for me to ask them what it was, I’m already transferring them to you, bye!”

    10. Jean*

      Push back! “I am clocked out right now, I can’t legally work. Please ask someone else.” If it continues to be a problem, you will need to start leaving the building on your lunch break. Sucks but sometimes that’s the only way to solve this kind of problem. She keeps asking because you keep acquiescing and doing it.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Or “I can do that, but I’ll need to clock back in.” Depending on circumstances, you could say “I’ll extend my lunch when I get back so we don’t have any issues with overtime.”

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            But if you ask, she can say “No, that’s not necessary, it will only take you a minute.” Don’t give her that option.

            1. Mad Harry Crewe*

              “Oh, no, if I’m doing work I need to be clocked in. Otherwise, it will need to wait until I’m back from lunch.”

          2. foolofgrace*

            “So it’s okay when I put in for overtime?” I realize it’s easier to just extend your lunch break, but why should you? You could try saying the OT thing just to see what your boss says! I’d like to be a fly on the wall for that one.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Jean & Rusty both have good language. Pointing out that you’re clocked out is perfect. Maybe ask your boss to forward the customer to your voicemail to return after your lunch break. (Which you say is *required* so I’m assuming legal.)

        4. I'm just here for the cats*

          She may not be able to re clock in again for lunch, depending on the clock system. I’ve had jobs where there are only to be 4 punches. clock in, clock out (for lunch) clock in (from lunch) clock out. In fact if you left early the stupid system made you clock out, clock in and then clock out again!!

          I think OP needs to push back. Say I can’t since I’m hourly I have clocked out for my lunch. I’d be happy to call the customer back or if its urgent, the other customer service person is covering my lunch.

      2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Or “Jane is still on now, we’re a team/cross-trained/etc., so she can cover this or take a message if the person really needs me and not just customer service.”

      3. Marie*

        Yes to what Jean said: shut it down. I wouldn’t even offer clocking in and out for these non emergencies — what kind of break is that? I’m thinking: “I teach people how to treat me.” Letter Writer is on break reading a book—that absolutely already signals a break activity which is not to be interrupted. I would read the book with ear plugs or ear buds and stage a performance—looking up from my book with confusion, slowly taking out ear buds, et cetera. Also it might be that manager needs clarification re being asked for by name. “Is this something only ____ can help you with? If so, _____ is on break. Please call back after ____.” I have heard this said to me when asking for a specific person. In no way and at no time ever did those words cause me to either not talk to someone else or else call back later.

    11. Rebecca*

      And this is why I leave the building, even if it’s just to go outside, during my break times. Can’t be interrupted if I’m not visible or nearby.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yup. Since getting a dog I’ve had to run home over lunch to let him out, but before that I had to physically leave my department or I’d get bothered over lunch constantly. I legit hid in the basement of our building to get away from people.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Maybe it’s evil of me to be amused, but with your username I got the image of you digging down into a warren to rest.

    12. Heidi*

      Maybe you could go home for lunch temporarily (like for a couple of weeks), just long enough for her to get used to the idea that looking for you at lunchtime is not worthwhile. It is weird that this is a change in the normal behavior. Maybe she had a bad experience answering a call while you were at lunch or something? But I would hesitate to push back with something like, “You get mad when we bother you at lunch,” with your boss. That could go badly.

    13. Uncannycanuck*

      “Oh, I’m sure (coworker that covers at lunch) can handle that! Did you ask her? If she can’t, I’ll call (customer) back right when I’m back at my desk.”
      It doesn’t sound like this is a job with EMERGENCIES that ONLY YOU can handle.

    14. Observer*

      You are being very reasonable. But do you want to right or effective? The thing that is the least likely to create a scene is to just not be there. In nice weather can you just eat somewhere nearby so you don’t have to waste half your lunch on travel?

      Alternatively, you might talk to her about this – either ask her how to record the time or say something like “I’m concerned we could get into trouble for having me do work during lunch since we have to pay for all time worked.” Also, if your locality requires lunch breaks you could mention that, too.

      1. Champagne Cocktail*

        But do you want to right or effective?

        I think this question should be put up on my mirror so I can see it every day.

    15. Arya7*

      Would it be possible for you to talk with your boss about this? Something along the lines of:
      “If a call comes in for me while I am on my lunch break, would it be possible for me to call the customer back when I am no longer on a break?” I could be playing devil’s advocate here, but perhaps your manager truly thinks that the customer is calling to specifically speak to you about a matter you’re working on together, and wants to make sure the customer is taken care of in a timely manner. I know you’ve indicated this before, but I think you need to be more direct/blunt that 99% of the time, if a customer is asking for you by name, it’s simply because they’ve spoken with you before and just need to place an order, not because they need direct assistance. You could even offer as a suggestion that the call could go to the other customer service rep, who could take a message for you if the customer truly needs to speak with you. I’m getting the sense here that maybe your manager is truly not understanding how much this happens and how annoyed you are by the situation, and perhaps by addressing the issue with her in a more direct manner (in a separate meeting, not in the moment) could hopefully help.

      1. Sunflower*

        I would recommend talking to her as well. You should also be pointing out to her that you’re clocked out during your lunch time.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          Second this. I know she knows, but she’s probably salaried and they sometimes forget that when hourly workers are off, they are for-real _off_ and can’t legally work.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Or “If a call comes in for me while I’m on my lunch break, legally I’d need to clock back in to take the call. Instead of that, I’d like to return the call after my break to avoid any confusion with payroll about hours and overtime. Or Bob can take the call, since we don’t take our breaks at the same time for just this reason. Does that sound reasonable to you?”

    16. Watry*

      Everybody else has covered the advice, so I’m just here to offer sympathy–drives me crazy when customers learn your name and start asking for you.

      1. Artemesia*

        Sometimes people get ‘credit’ for sales and so it is a kindness to ask for the person you know as it gets added to their credit or pay. It is not obvious to an outsider if this is or isn’t the case but when they ask for a particular person it may be because they want them to get credit for the business since they have been pleased with their previous work.

      2. Richard Hershberger*

        It the penalty for a job well done. You have trained the customer that you won’t screw things up. It may be that your colleagues are at least as competent as you, but the customer doesn’t know that. I have sometimes, when on the customer side of this interaction, been explicit about the penalty for a job well done. It serves as both a compliment and an apology.

        1. Not a cat*

          Gawd! I remember having to work with clients to have them imprint on someone else. The curse of competence!

      4. Ace in the hole*

        The alternate extreme – where customers can’t seem to remember anything about you no matter how many times you’ve dealt with them – can be hilarious. I deal with a lot of unhappy people because a big part of my job is telling people “no.” It’s great when someone comes in and starts complaining to me about the horrible horrible treatment they got from “the other girl.” I love telling them I’m the only woman who works here!

    17. theletter*

      Why is your manager acting like a not-great receptionist? “hey I want you to know that So-And-So is on the phone for you but I didn’t ask him what for.” That’s not particularly useful.

      It sounds like there is a disconnect between your status as an hourly employee and “jumping on customer needs”.

      I would be clear with her that you can either be clocked out for your mandatory lunch and let those calls go to voicemail, or you can be an exempt employee who takes a lunch break when time allows.

    18. RobotWithHumanHair*

      This is exactly why I take my lunch breaks anywhere BUT our breakroom. Typically, I actually go for a run on my lunch break, so it’s nigh impossible to reach me, but in the event of inclement weather/horrendously sore legs, I grab my Kindle and go sit and hide in my car.

    19. Hapax Legomenon*

      How do you think it would go over to say, “Okay, I’ll clock back in and take my lunch later” next time she interrupts you five minutes into your lunch? A few other ideas for if it’s mid-lunch:
      “Can you take a message?”
      “Did you ask if it was okay for the other specialist to handle the call?”
      “What is the call in regards to?”
      “Is it urgent?”

      Just asking your manager if she’s done her homework before interrupting you might get your manager to think before she interrupts you might be all she needs to realize she’s being very inconsiderate, especially if she’s more distracted or stressed lately. If not, I would just write them all down somewhere, and when she does it enough times that you feel it’s appropriate to bring up, show her how much she’s doing it and ask if these calls can be handled another way.

      1. Hapax Legomenon*

        Also, I wouldn’t bring up “You’d be ticked if I did this to you.” She’s interrupting your unpaid time to make you do work you get paid for. That sounds like the better way to frame the issue, because it’s less subjective.

        1. Yorick*

          I wouldn’t bring this up either. Our bosses would certainly be ticked if we did a lot of stuff that they regularly do, like assign work to them, or talk to them about how they’ll avoid making a mistake again, or giving them a performance review.

          Ultimately, it could make sense to have you clock back in to take a customer’s call (I don’t think it makes sense now, but it could in some situations), and your boss has the authority to decide that’s what you need to do.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        For what it’s worth, my company’s timeclock system isn’t flexible enough to let us clock back in before the legally mandated minimum time away from desk!

        1. Parenthetically*

          If that’s true for Just Peachy as well, I reckon they could use this to frame “ooh, nope, can’t” in a real tangible way — “Oh, actually, Janet in HR mentioned the other day that our timeclock system isn’t flexible enough for me just to clock back in for 5 minutes to take this call, and I’m legally not allowed to work off the clock, so I’ll have to call the customer back at the end of my lunch break.” With this framing, it’s “My hands are tied” rather than “I don’t wanna.”

    20. slayerofvampyres*

      Ugh. This is some weird, needy, and/or passive aggressive behavior. Very odd that it’s happening all of a sudden – is there any incident or interaction you can think back to that might have sparked this change? Might help to think about that in case you do need to be more on guard with her. This behavior may have nothing to do with you of course…sometimes I’ve noticed when bosses are having a difficult time in their personal life or with other ppl at the org, they get more needy, especially with their high performers. It sucks and it’s also pretty pathetic to use your power position to suck attention from your reports. Sorry, venting. My suggestion: Say in the cheeriest least-annoyed way possible: “She probably needs to place an order. I’m on my lunch break right now, but Customer Service Rep can assist her. If there’s something she needs from me specifically, I would be happy to do that as soon as I return from lunch.” Then go back to eating your lunch and reading your book. Hopefully this will be enough, but you may have to think of something if she presses…like “are you asking me to clock back in to assist this customer?” If she says yes, then I would def start finding a new place to have lunch, at least for a while to try to kick this habit. Is going home the only option? Maybe there’s something closer.

      Do you have a good relationship with the other Customer Service Rep and feel comfortable to let her know that this is happening, and/or find out if your boss is doing this to them as well? Maybe you two can make a point to intercept calls as much as possible.

      Also, if you are in a union environment, this would be a big no-no so that might be an option if she keeps pushing back when you try to set kind and reasonable boundaries. Good luck.

    21. CW*

      I once had a coworker who would do this repeatedly. There was this one day that I was not in a good mood and I finally spoke my mind when he did it again: “I’m on my lunch.”

      His exact words? – “I don’t care.”

      I was already miserable at that job for reasons that I won’t go into details here, but that was just disrespectful. And no, I am no longer working there; this happened in 2017.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        “I don’t care.”

        “Neither do I. I’m on my lunch. Go away.”

        Glad you aren’t working they. That’s just plain rude.

      2. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        A coworker? Wow. A coworker who is not your boss has no right to interrupt your lunch and try to make you do something. He was so out of line. I’m glad you don’t have to work with that guy anymore- he’s an ass.

    22. snoopythedog*

      Can you have a conversation with her to say “lately, I’ve noticed I’ve been asked to handle customer inquiries on my lunch break. Many of these requests are not urgent nor are they required to be handled solely by me. As I’m an hourly worker, I need to take the full lunch break and am not legally allowed to do work during this time. Can you help me work out a way to have coverage and ensure that my lunch break is not impinged on.”

      Treat it as a general problem, not just a specifically *her* problem, but something that she needs to help you solve (as your manager, not as the person causing the problem).

    23. Jennifer*

      I don’t think she’s going to stop. You offered her some very reasonable responses and she still bulldozed right over them. I’d start eating in the car, if possible, or in some other area of the building if I were you. Maybe splurge on lunch at a nearby restaurant if you have the extra cash sometimes. Going home is also a good option, but that’s going to eat 30 minutes of your break which is annoying.

    24. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, this used to happen to me at OldExjob. I was the only clerical worker, and others would get up from their desks and come ALL the way into the break room to ask me stuff. I mean, I’m sitting there behind my personal laptop, with a sandwich in one hand, obviously at lunch, dude. Then they would get mad when I asked them (nicely!) to email me and I’d take care of it when I got back to my desk. *eyeroll emoji*

      Since it’s actually your manager, that’s even worse. But you should not be working when you’re off the clock.

    25. Ophelia*

      Are there any commonalities about the types of situations she’s interrupting you for? I’m wondering if there are perhaps some things she doesn’t know how to do, or maybe isn’t as proficient at, and instead of learning them/admitting it, she’s using excuses to interrupt you and have you handle them. Just a thought.

    26. Quickbeam*

      I leave the premises for lunch, it’s the only way I know of stopping this. I used to try and knit at my desk for lunch but it was one interruption after another. So now I leave.

    27. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Is the reorg indicative of slumping business or pressure from top management to improve customer service reviews or increase repeat orders? If the boss was given a mandate to focus more on immediate customer service and satisfaction, and has had other duties removed in order for her to do that, the company may have changed a policy or taken a harder line to any current policies about tending to customer right away and never sending them to voice mail, taking a message, or transferring them to someone else. If you suddenly start leaving for lunch, even though you are in the right, you could get blow back. Perhaps ask if there is a lunch time that will be less likely to be interrupted and that might prompt her to tell you this is going to keep going (if she says something like “No, you just have to be prepared to be interrupted/available and take the calls as they come in). Alternatively, try taking your lunch when she does — she can’t interrupt you if she is also unavailable.

    28. Sleepless*

      Things like this are why I started leaving for lunch. Every single time. I drive one mile to a nearby park and eat outside or in my car. My coworkers don’t even know where I go, they just know I’m not there.

    29. Just my two cents*

      I can understand your frustration! I think I’d start out low key and just say “I’m not working/waiting on anything time sensitive from this customer. Please get their number and I’ll call them back after my lunch break.” Be consistent with this response for a while and see if that works. If not, then I’d talk with her specifically about the issue and let her know that you prefer not to work thru your lunch unless you’re getting paid to do so, or can extend your lunch hour. (Which it sounds like you’re already doing.)

    31. Curmudgeon in California*

      “Can you take this call now?”
      “No. I’m clocked out for lunch.”

      If that doesn’t get through, you may have to eat in your car or go home for about a month.

      You’re hourly. If you’re clocked out and you take a call or do other work, you literally aren’t getting paid for that work, and your lunch hour is being stolen. If they want you to be able to jump up and work during lunch, they need to pay your lunch period, since they are wanting you on-call during it. IMO, IANAL

    32. RagingADHD*

      You put a stop to it by politely saying either

      a) “I’ll call them back when I clock in after lunch.”

      or

      b) “Okay, I’ll clock back in and handle it. Are you authorizing overtime for this, or shall I leave early today?”

      You are not being unreasonable at all. You’re hourly. Don’t work for free.

    33. Boldly Go*

      Your response should be ” thanks, I’m on my lunch break now. I’ll get back to her before x o’clock”.

      You have to train your manager here. If you engage in any way, you’ve already messed up your lunch break. If you go to take the call, then you’ve messed up your lunch break (even if you can take back those ten minutes, but your break was interrupted and you’re annoyed).

      I had to do this at a previous job. My boss knew that I liked to take my break with a group of colleagues (“the salad group”) and she always came in, did the “oops sorry I didn’t realize you were on your lunch break” routine and I would be pissed. So I started saying that line “I’ll take care of it after my break”. (Obviously, in an emergency, I would deal with it right then).

    35. HR Lady*

      Major implications for having hourly employees work during unpaid lunch. Do you clock back in and then extend your lunch when this happens? May be a good opportunity to let your boss or HR know about the liability to the company. They could be liable for paying back years of lunch breaks if it’s evident they are having employees work (even on occasion). Also – you could talk to her, directly, she obviously hasn’t picked up on your subtle encouragement for her to not interrupt you. Talk to her and say this has started happening, I appreciate how much trust you put in me by wanting me to handle it, but my uninterrupted lunch is important to me and is actually legally protected! Can we agree for you to direct them to my voicemail/another employee etc. ?

    36. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      It sounds like your manager is either being clueless or passive-aggressive. Could it be that you manager, for some weird reason, doesn’t like what time you’re taking your lunch and is passive-aggressively letting you know that? I’m sure you’re taking your lunch at a reasonable time, but some managers get weird about things like that. But if that isn’t the case, it’s still odd.

      It irks me that employees are supposed to behave like work is the only important thing in our lives. Workworkworkworkwork. Of course work is important, but so are our lives. It’s okay for your lunch break to be important to you, whether you are exempt or hourly. The whole mentality that some people have that a person is a slacker if they’re not a workaholic or work martyr is b.s.

  2. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I’m attending a fundraiser held by an organization I’d love to work for. They hired a new manager last year and I plan to congratulate him on the improvements he’s made to the company. Is it OK to give him my business card in case a position opens up? If so, what do I say?

    1. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

      Just say “I’m interested in working here – here’s my business card in case anything opens up”.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know that I’d lead with a business card. Can you strike up a conversation and see where it goes? Casually bring up that you’d love to work there if a position opens up? If he seems interested, you can have your business card ready.

    3. Cleopatra*

      YES !! Networking is essential!

      Don’t be pushy, just hand him the card during your conversation. And you can totally be honest by telling him that you’d love to work for this organization someday.

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        I was going to say this too. Just introduce yourself, give your card and explain why you would like to work their, and what interests you.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’ll go slightly against the grain here. I think it’s perfectly appropriate to network, but if he works for the organization throwing the fundraiser, he might be pretty busy during the event (with schmoozing if not with tasks). I think it’s ok to congratulate him, say you’re really interested in the organization, and ask if you can give him a call to set up a coffee meeting or just to chat. And give him your business card. But don’t have the actual conversation during the event, just use it as an opening for further conversation.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I’d go with this, but even more of a light touch. Make the connection, but just give the positive input and move on.

        Then invite for coffee or send an email later and mention your interest.

        Working an event is hard work. Asking about jobs when they are literally trying to make budget is going to come across as tone deaf – a big negative in nonprofits.

        1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

          They’re not a nonprofit and it’s not a fundraiser for them; they’re holding the fundraiser for another charity.

    6. Parenthetically*

      It would feel more natural to me somehow just to do the congratulations, chat a bit about the company, and then reach out to him on LinkedIn to try to set up a coffee. But I don’t think it would be weird at all to give him your business card and just say, “Honestly, you’ve made such a success of this place, and I’d absolutely love to chat with you if there are ever any openings in Snorkel Procurement or Snorkel Fitting for your Underwater Basket-Weaving department. Here’s my card. Thanks so much for your time, and again, huge congrats on what you’ve done with Basketry, Inc.”

    7. june june hannah*

      I would chat with him (briefly!) at the event and then follow up via LinkedIn on Monday with a personalized message. I don’t think it’s appropriate to do an elevator pitch for yourself at the event, JMO.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Then ask for his email address or card so you can follow up. Don’t expect him to follow up with you– you’re the one who wants to network, so you should initiate. I agree with jjh (and HA, by the way, love it!) that an event is not a great place to pitch yourself. It’s great for making connections, but not for more important conversations.

    9. nate333*

      Have a small talk, present your case and then add them on linkedin.

      Nobody uses business cards anymore. They are useless.

      1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        That depends a lot on the culture. I go through a box of 200 about every 9 months, unless I am attending a trade show or speaking at a conference.
        In Europe and Asia as well as in professional settings in Canada and much of the US, business cards are still the norm and not having one at the ready would look weird.
        Ours are now hybrid – they have a QR code on the back with all the info, so the recipient can scan everything into their phone/Outlook in one second.

    10. Hawkeye is in the Details*

      I have no specific advice to give, I just want to say: Sydney Ellen Wade of Virginia — knock ‘em dead.

  3. Diahann Carroll*

    Calling all technical writers and content development managers: I need suggestions for online certificate programs that are either free or low cost (like, less than $5k) that focus on technical writing and/or content strategy/development.

    I’ve been doing my own independent research for about six months or so, and I found some very interesting classes I could take at well-known universities; HOWEVER, most of these courses are $10k plus, and I just don’t see spending that kind of money on a certificate. The one graduate certificate program I was really jazzed about, The Storytelling & Content Strategy course at The University of Washington, seemed like a winner – unfortunately, the next online program start date is March 31, and my company’s tuition reimbursement won’t kick in for me until May. The next time this program is available for enrollment will be January 2021, but I can’t wait that long – I feel like I need more training as a content strategist, especially when talking about content analysis (something I’ve never done before), so that I can better determine what kinds of pieces I need to be creating for my company’s proposal team.

    Does anyone have any advice? Any university/college suggestions? EdX course recommendations?

    2. MB*

      It’s possible that your local community college may have a certificate program, too. Otherwise, I’d imagine something like Coursera might be your best bet.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        It’s embarrassing that I didn’t even think about my local community college, but that’s a great place to start looking. I’ve only been in content development for nine months, so I need practical, hands-on training to feel truly comfortable in my role.

        1. Lyudie*

          Definitely check it out. A lot of community colleges have online courses and programs through Ed2Go, I’ve taken a few and they were generally good.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            I just checked my city’s community college website, and they have nothing there for this – so disappointing. Off to looking at Coursera.

              1. Diahann Carroll*

                I’m not (which probably accounts for why no such program exists at my community college), but I’ll check to see if Bellevue College has any online options. Thanks!

    3. Tech Writer*

      STC offers certification, both foundation and practitioner levels. The textbook cost me $65 on Kindle, and sitting the exam is $265 for current STC members and $525 for nonmembers.

      1. Lyudie*

        Former tech writer seconding STC, they are very well known as *the* organization in the field so any certificate from them will probably be looked on favorably. They are not cheap but are probably cheaper than some of the things you are looking at now.

        1. Tech Writer*

          Can confirm that I’ve seen job postings that specifically list STC certification as “wish list” items. Most recent was tech writing for Universal Studios.

    4. CindyLouWho*

      STC also has online courses. Options are Tech Comm Fundamentals Bootcamp and Tech Comm 101 (although I don’t see it on the schedule right now).

      Go to http://www.stc.org to see a list of their courses.

      And I second the recommendation for the certification. I’m studying for my first exam now!

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Oh man, that Tech Fundamentals Bootcamp is exactly the kind of thing I’m looking for, but it too starts long before my tuition reimbursement eligibility window. I’ll bookmark this page though, thanks!

        1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          If you are up to it, a “new to the field” membership and the bootcamp would be a bit under $1000.
          It might be possible to talk to your manager and HR to waive the eligibility requirement – if the course is really relevant for the job they might be willing to help you there.
          Potentially with some strings attached, like if you quit of your own volition before X date you’d pay them back pro-rated.
          Just state the usefulness of the course for your job and that waiting for the eligibility would mean waiting a year, and you should have a winner.

    5. new kid*

      What CMS are you using? A lot of companies hold free webinars that are ostensibly about using their product but often have more broad applications and/or are real use cases from other folks in similar positions to yours so you can see what did (or didn’t) work for them.

      For example, I use MadCap Flare and they have hundreds of previous webinars posted on their site, which I’ve found to be a great resource in thinking through my own content strategy. Obviously, none of that amounts to a quantifiable certification, but it you care more about just gaining the knowledge (and cheaply) that might be another route.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        We don’t use technical writing software at my company in my role as a content development manager, and our content management system generates proposal docs using the templates I help write and design manually. I know that won’t be the case when I move on from my current company, so that’s another reason why I’m looking into certificate programs – I need to learn what CMSs are out there and how to use them.

        1. new kid*

          Ah gotcha. Sorry, my advice is less useful in that case. But I’ll +1 all the comments above about STC! And especially if you could swing their conference one year, all the CMS vendors will be there as well.

    6. Clementine*

      I’d prefer UW over most options, although the timing certainly isn’t great. How does the reimbursement work? Some universities allow you to defer payment for a good enough reason, so if this lack of timely reimbursement were the issue, you might be able to work with UW to make this work for you. (What I mean to ask is if you could get reimbursed later for a program that you start in March, particularly if you were able to negotiate a later payment date.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        To even be eligible, I have to have worked here for a year. So I can’t enroll in the course now, for example, and then go and request reimbursement later because I have to submit a form to my manager that also has to be signed by him and my division VP, then the HR rep in charge of this program. I could end up not getting it approved for whatever reason and stuck paying out of pocket for it, and I don’t have that kind of money.

        To do things by the book (and to ensure I don’t get any nasty surprises a couple months from now), I just have to hold off on enrolling anywhere until May. *sigh*

    7. Clementine*

      I won’t include a link, but the Digital Marketing Certificate at the University of Calgary is an online program, looks quite substantive, and is well under your price range, particularly considering it is in Canadian dollars.

    8. I'm just here for the cats*

      try Ed2Go at https://www.ed2go.com/ I’m not sure exactly what you’re looking for but it may help. You do get sort of like a certificate of completion and there are a lot of universities that offer it through their professional development departments. At least at my university costs are around $100 per course.

      You can also try EDX at https://www.edx.org/. There are thousands of different types of classes from all over the world, including Harvard, MIT, and a bunch of other Ivey League schools. Most are free but you can earn credits by paying. Prices do vary.

      Good luck and I hope you can find something that works!

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Thank you – I bookmarked your first site (I’ve known about EdX – I just wondered if anyone knew of specific courses there that would help). Looks like I have more reading to do!

    9. Ace in the hole*

      Do you need a certificate program, or are individual classes okay?

      Oregon State University has a ton of online classes including some in technical writing (and other kinds of writing). They don’t have a certificate program for writing though. I’m an online student at OSU and have been really impressed by the quality of their courses. Tuition is about $300 per credit, so most individual classes are around $1K.

  4. Folklorist*

    My beloved boss is retiring in June. It’s sad, but not unexpected. We just got our first notifications that they’re beginning the first rounds of interviews for his replacement. My coworker and I, who will be this person’s two direct reports, are scheduled to interview the candidates as well. I’ve never interviewed a potential boss before. What sort of things should I be asking about? We’re a magazine at a science nonprofit.

    Complicating things: I’m currently job searching and not planning on staying much longer. It’s not just about his leaving—I’ve been questioning whether it’s been time to go for a while based on boredom and feeling like I’ve hit my upper limit of development here, and boss’s retirement announcement clarified that it really was time. (And no, I have no desire to apply for my boss’s job, nor am I qualified anyway.) Does my potential leaving change what I should be asking candidates?

    1. Celeste*

      I think you have to do the job until you’re gone. I don’t think the candidates need to know you plan to leave.

      As far as questions, I might ask about their management history, how they prefer to handle communications, have they been part of the non profit world before, and what kind of goals they may have for their career trajectory.

      1. Folklorist*

        Thanks! Those are great insights! To clarify, I’m not planning on telling anyone I’m leaving until I have another job in hand and give two weeks’ notice. I’m just wondering if I should ask anything about what they would look for in hiring new people or forming teams (we are potentially hiring another junior staff member as well, so I might possibly ask what the new person would look for in hiring).

        1. foolofgrace*

          I don’t understand why you would ask about their hiring practices. There’s nothing they could say that would change anything, and in fact you might be opening a door to “Hmmm, why would she ask that, is she leaving??” None of it will be your problem.

          1. Working Mom*

            Agreed. I wouldn’t try to tailor your interview of potential new bosses to your specific situation. Instead; focus on hiring a great manager. Some things to think about – culture (how the work gets done), managing/communication style. A few “tell me about time when” type questions on common management themes like delivering difficult feedback, coaching a low performing employee back to meeting expectations. How top/high performing EE’s are treated (not burning them out but also providing new challenges where possible, etc.).

            What else… I’m sure there are more topics to cover but I can’t think of more right now!

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          I would focus on asking questions about their management and leadership style and leave out the stuff about how they hire – as stated above, it really won’t be your concern once you leave and it will possibly raise flags in your coworker’s mind as to why you’re asking. If you’re trying to keep your job search secret, you’ll pretty much blow that.

          But you can ask broader questions about how they would further develop your team and ask about their experience in that arena.

        3. Curmudgeon in California*

          I would use questions about how they hire as a way to suss out what they want in subordinates. If they only want cheerful morning people, and half your department is night owls with RBF, that’s a thing to want to know. I don’t think that would throw up a red flag, since presumably your team will grow.

    2. Stormy Weather*

      I would ask what their management style was, how they think experience at Xjob on their resume will help them succeed at what they are interviewing for. If they changed industries, why. If there’s volunteer experience on their LinkedIn profile, I’d also ask what they find most valuable about it.

    3. CB*

      In addition to the great comments about management and leadership, I’ve found it to be helpful to ask about things like their vision for the team and a few growth opportunities that they’ve identified based on their research of the organization and previous interviews. Some basic questions along those lines can help identify how they operate, and how that aligns with your organization. For example, if they are a “big thinker” with their head 1,000 feet in the clouds who wants to change everything, but your organization is very rigid and “by the book”, that’s a pretty big culture clash to overcome.

    4. BookLady*

      If it were me, I’d want to know the answers to to questions listed below. And no, I wouldn’t change these because you are planning to leave. Partly because you don’t know when you will get an offer! My most recent job search (last year) took nine months. You may be working for this person for at least a few months. I would also steer clear of asking something vague like, “What is your management style?” and aim for more specific, behavioral questions. “Management style” is so broad and doesn’t really get to the heart of behaviors that matter for a manager. Think about the things that your past managers have done really well or really poorly and ask questions around those behaviors.

      Do you prefer to have regular check-ins with your reports or do you have more of an open door policy where people can come to you with issues or questions? What have you found to be the benefits and downfalls of your preferred method?

      How do you prefer to communicate with your team both as a whole and on an individual basis?

      Tell me about a time when you have had to correct or coach one of your direct reports who was underperforming. What was the situation, how did you approach the problem, and what was the outcome? Is there anything you would have done differently, looking back on it now?

      Tell me about a time when you have had interpersonal conflict in your department and/or between your direct reports. How did you approach that situation? What was the outcome and what did you learn from it?

      Tell me about how you approach giving feedback–both positive and negative–to your team. How do you encourage your team to share positive and negative feedback with one another?

      How do you promote collaboration and knowledge sharing among your team?

      How do you encourage career and professional development for the members of your team?

      How do you handle goal setting and performance evaluation for members of your team? [Note: Hopefully your HR or department have some regulations around this process, but whether or not they do, this is valuable information. I have had managers who didn’t bother with goal setting, but had to follow the annual performance review process and then we were forced to have an awkward conversation about where I’d succeeded and failed around metrics that I didn’t even know existed!]

      Tell me about a time when you advocated for your team or a direct report to upper management, HR, or another department. How did you navigate the intraoffice politics and what was the outcome?

    5. Emmie*

      * Tell me about a time when you handled a low performing employee. What made them low performing and what steps did you take?
      * Tell me about your highest performing employee. What made her a high performing employee. How did you manage her?
      * How have you measured productivity?

    6. Fikly*

      Especially given that you are not planning on staying for reasons that don’t seem to be about the place being terrible, I would feel an obligation to try to hire the best manager I could for the person replacing me.

      Use your experience in your position to know what to ask.

    7. Krabby*

      One of my friend always recommends the below question as a way to gauge how the manager values/ranks their industry knowledge over their managerial skills:
      – [Company] is providing the opportunity for you to take one of the following courses: Option A is a course on effective management, and Option B is a course on [insert highly relevant and valuable skill to have in your field]. Which option do you choose and why?

  5. Nice Legs*

    Yesterday, a male coworker said to me (female and half his age) “Wow, look at your legs! You’re walking so well!”

    Out of context, this sounds absolutely horrible and I should be walking straight to HR.

    BUT, in context, I have been recovering from a broken leg bone. My coworkers have watched me over the past two months go from non-weight-bearing with crutches, to weight-bearing with a brace; and now to being unassisted but slow and wobbly. So I’m getting plenty of comments and questions about my walking; this one amused me so much because of how awful it would sound to someone who didn’t know it was meant as a coworker genuinely thrilled with my progress. Just made me laugh to myself.

    2. Cleopatra*

      I am having a dental surgery next week, I hope someone will be telling me that I am chewing so well afterwards.

      1. toodleoodlewhordleordle*

        “Grrrrrl, what that mouth do?”
        “Functions correctly now, thank you so much!”
        “I’m so happy to hear that, congrats!”

    3. Dust Bunny*

      My boss (male, a generation older than the rest of the department. who are all female) was in a nasty car accident a few years ago and had to do some serious PT to regain the use of one of his legs. So, yeah, we’ve commented on his legs a few times.

    4. Uhtceare*

      :) I had that–I got an inordinate amount of praise as I recovered from a broken tibia, especially the first day I made it to and from the Tims all by myself.

      Cheers for a continued recovery!

    7. Fikly*

      Congrats! I’ve done that journey, it’s a tough one!

      And that reminds me of when I crutched into class in high school my first day back after having surgery, and the class spontaneously applauded (granted, I had been on crutches for pretty much 2 years leading up to this surgery, and was known around the school as “the girl on crutches”). Still, I thought it was sweet.

    10. Toothless*

      I had a similar thing with my face – I got in a bike vs car accident almost a month ago and ended up with some gnarly road rash on my face. It healed quickly enough that I got a lot of comments about “wow, look at your face!” and “you’re looking so good”

    11. Former Young Lady*

      Now I have a certain ZZ Top song playing in my head. :) Wishing you a continued successful recovery!

      1. Anonanon do do do do do*

        Ha, I had both my knees replaced and all anyone talked about were my legs! Good luck on your recovery!

    12. Parenthetically*

      Hahaha oh man I wish I were still teaching writing classes so I could use this as an example of the importance of context when pulling quotes!!

      1. WooferMom*

        I once ran into a neighbor at a work event, and when he said he barely recognized me, I blurted out “Yeah, I guess you’ve never seen me dressed!” Of course, what I meant was “dressed up” as opposed to how he was accustomed to seeing me – walking my dogs in the neighborhood in my workout clothes.

    13. MRK*

      We had a holiday event going on near my work and one of the actors figured out we had snacks out… cue him barging in before a show yelling “I need some sugar, love!” And then immediately looking mortified as he realized that I had customers.
      I meanwhile was cracking up because I knew that A. He wanted cookies and B. I’ve seen him for YEARS doing this holiday event and he’s always been super polite and nice.

  6. TCO*

    Can anyone recommend a great work tote? I’m looking for a larger tote bag to be my daily work bag–big enough to hold my laptop and a lunch when needed. I’d like something that will last for a good while, and I just don’t know where to start or what brands to trust.

    I’d like to spend around $100-125 and I want something simple, no showy designer logos or anything like that. I’m thinking leather since it ages gracefully. What have you bought that has stood up well to years of daily use?

    1. merp*

      There are good, plain-but-still-nice-looking options from baggu, both leather and canvas. You might have to scroll past their (larger) collection of patterned reusable grocery bags though.

    2. queen b*

      Might I recommend Baggu? The Large Leather tote may be what you’re looking for. Alternatively, the canvas ones are also great – they are stylish and easily washable.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        I was going to say that $100 isn’t going to cut it for a leather tote, but if you can stretch the budget a bit it looks like the Baggu tote is on sale for $150 (from a standard price of around $250).

    3. Fishsticks*

      This is something I’ve been trying to get as well! I’m eager to see others suggestions. I’ve been casually looking at outlet stores and Nordstrom rack for bags for a while

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      Thirding Baggu! I have several of their “grocery” styles and 2 leather ones – I have been so happy with them! I use them for the gym and for toting my lunch and I have several that I use for grocery bags.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I have a black leather Fossil tote that I’ve had for about 3 years, and it’s still in good shape. I don’t recall the specific model name, but it holds a slim laptop and personal essentials with room to spare for a lunch. I used to have a thicker laptop that also fit in it. They are a little above your range, but they do haves sales and clearances.

      1. Ama*

        My Fossil bag is just a handbag, not a tote, but as someone who is really, really hard on handbags (the one I had before this didn’t even last a year), I’m really pleased with how well it is holding up about sixish months into a very rainy winter (I commute by public transit and have about a ten minute walk from the station to my office so it gets a lot of weather exposure).

        If you aren’t picky about color or want a neutral color, waiting for a clearance sale can get you a good deal (they have seasonal colors for their standard models and some of those don’t make it to clearance).

        1. Leslie Knope*

          I’m in love with my Fossil tote bag! I got it on sale at an outlet, so I paid around $75(ish). It fits my laptop and zips closed (which is a game changer!). I’ll never go back to having an open-topped tote bag. I use it a lot for travel as well, it’s the perfect size for my second carry-on because my little purse can fit down inside of it. I’ve been using it for about 2 years now and it still looks brand new, but it’s black and doesn’t show any stains. If it were a lighter color it would probably be looking a little worn in at this point.

          Normally they would be well over $200, but they have great sales. Just keep an eye out and sign up for the email promotions so they’ll send you coupon codes.

      2. button*

        I’ll pipe in for Fossil too. I find that sales directly from their website are usually for the seasonal colors; I got mine when Macy’s was having a big sale around Xmas and it was 30% off, iirc.

    6. Joielle*

      I have a Fjallraven totepack that I love and is really sturdy and versatile – not sure if it’s formal enough for your needs, but if so I’d recommend it!

    7. Antrobii*

      Have you looked at Everlane? Their leather tote bags are very sleek and simple, and I understand hold up beautifully. They’re $175-ish, I think, which is a bit higher than your named range, but these are really high quality.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m looking for something similar. I’m actually on the verge of buying a diaper bag from the Coach outlet (lots of people use it as a business bag), except the only versions they have available right now are leopard print faux leather (I’m not necessarily opposed to leopard print but I’d rather have something more subtle, and actual leather) or black crossgrain leather, which always looks cheap to me. Those Baggu totes are interesting, but I want a zip top and an external pocket.

      1. Leslie Knope*

        I commented above about my Fossil bag, but I can’t stop thinking about how much I love it. It has a zipper and a small external pocket (I keep my business card case in it and can fit my cell phone as well). The interior has two open pockets (for me, that’s where my keys go and my phone when I want it zipped inside) and a panel with a zipper pocket. I had measured it before I bought it to make sure it would fit my 17″ laptop. They have smaller tote versions available at Fossil, but my larger laptop presented a challenge.

        They usually have a great sales, but I’m lucky to have an outlet close. I go there a lot!

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I do have a Fossil bag that I like a lot, but it’s more of a narrow briefcase type bag, and now I want a larger, wider tote bag. I need to give them another look!

          1. Mayflower*

            Sadly, I must report that the transit tote has very narrow straps so when you put a laptop in it, it really cuts into your shoulders (leaves marks) and sags around the connection points.

    10. Recent Grad*

      I bought a large Kate Spade tote about 5 years ago, it still looks brand new, even though I have used it as a school/work tote daily since then. If you aren’t in a rush they have really good sales every few months.

      1. BusyBee*

        Seconded! I have a black leather Kate Spade tote that I’ve carried forever and still love. There is a Kate Spade outlet near me, and they often have pretty good deals.

      2. Megan*

        I agree! They also have excellent sales on the regular. I just bought a $300 black tote for $50. Sign up for emails.

    11. KK*

      My suggestion is the “Market Tote” from Duluth Pack. I have one and love it. The leather ones would be above your price point, but the canvas ones would hit the mark. Mine is very durable and becomes multipurpose. It can handle work, weather, airplanes, picnics, beaches etc without me worrying about it’s safety. It does not have a full zip top closure though. Duluth Pack has many styles besides the Market Tote if you wanted to poke around. And they do go on sale occasionally!

    12. Lyudie*

      It’s not leather, but I have a laptop backpack from Kroser from Amazon that I really like. It has lots of pocket, plenty of room, is lightweight, and has a metal frame around the opening so it stays open.

    13. kittymommy*

      I’ve had good luck with large leather purses/totes from Kate Spade, Michael Kors, Brahmin, and Frye. Brahmin is a little pricey, but the others I’ve found at places like TJ Maxx or outlets for reasonable amounts.

    14. A Simple Narwhal*

      Timbuk2 bags are great! I don’t think they come in leather but they’re simple looking, versatile, and very durable. I have one of their backpacks for commuting to work and it’s great for carrying my laptop/lunch/shoes/etc without being bulky. They also have messenger bags if you are looking for more of a tote than a backpack.

      1. FoodieNinja*

        Seconding this! I have their convertible backpack (it has backpack straps and tote handles), and it’s been perfect for everyday work use.

    15. Vanilla Latte with an Xtra Shot*

      I really like Longchamp bags. They are simple and functional and fairly easy to keep clean. I’ve had one for almost 10 years and it’s my go to travel bag for work.

      1. RoseMai*

        Same. And they’ll repair zipper pulls/corners of the bag once for free. Plus I’ve actually cleaned mine when it’s gotten marks on it with a toothbrush and dish soap! How convenient is that.

    16. Goldfinch*

      Madewell does gorgeous leather totes.

      The Transport Leather Tote is a zip-top, is released in multiple colors during different seasons, and I’ve seen it on sale as low as $113.

      The Abroad Leather Tote is also a zip-top, but seems to have fewer colors and doesn’t go on sale as frequently (I think staple colors stay full-priced, while the seasonal colors are what get discounted to clear them out).

      1. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

        Seconding Madewell – great quality, simple, affordable (considering what they could be).
        I’ve had my Madewell leather bag for about 4-5 years and it’s still gorgeous. You can add an extra $25-30 to get it personalized. Mine is a little too small for a laptop, but it’s one of their smaller styles so I know you can get one big enough for a laptop + some lunch

    17. LKW*

      I got a large tote from Kensington. It has travelled with two laptops, notebook, electronics and emergency work kit (bandaids, breath mints, pepto pills, nail file, etc). through China, Brazil, France and the states. It had the one big feature that I wanted, a strap to hold it on a carry on suitcase. The bag itself is light, which is great given how much I have to carry in it.

    18. JessicaTate*

      I’d suggest looking at Cuyana leather totes. They have a small structured tote for about $150. I have the large zipper tote — because I travel a lot and want to maximize my carry-on capacities, while zipping up. The leather quality is really nice. It’s a very simple design, but also polished-looking. It depends on what you’re looking for in features, of course. But I invested, and so far I’ve been really happy.

      1. A.A.*

        I second this. I LOVE my Cuyana bag. I have the large one in navy and I commute on a train with it. I have used it for about a year and still looks new. It holds everything I need (water bottle, makeup kit, spare shoes, lunch, laptop, book etc.), looks incredibly professional and isn’t flashy. I work for a nonprofit that serves people experiencing poverty, but I meet with funders -think MAJOR foundations- so I need to strike that balance. I also use it while flying, as it fits under the seat in front of you. I didn’t want to spend the money, but now I am glad I did, as I don’t forsee needing a replacement anytime soon.

    19. Hi there*

      It is not leather but I love the Baggalini Avenue tote bag. Yesterday in a meeting with the faculty member she had the same bag in the same color, called Charcoal. I’ll reply to myself with a link.

    20. Tess McGill*

      I really love my “Classic Leather Tote” from Cuyana ($175.00), found in the “Work Bags” section of the website. Large enough to fit my laptop, lunch and a pair of heels. Handles long enough to go over my shoulder. It has held up beautifully for the past two years.

    21. TCO*

      Thanks for the suggestions so far, everyone! The Madewell and Fossil totes look like what I’m envisioning for style, and knowing that you’ve had them last a long time makes me more comfortable investing in a higher price–I don’t mind spending more if I know it will really last. I’ll keep reading your suggestions and once I find some good options I’ll watch for a sale.

    22. Anonny*

      It might be a bit higher than your budget, but you should take a look at North Carolina designer Holly Aiken’s website. The bags are vinyl, very stylish, and most importantly, can take a serious beating. I’ve had one of the smaller totes, and it’s outlasted 2 other laptop bags.

    24. Elizabeth West*

      Go look at TJ Maxx if you have one near you; they often have totes and purses in their bag/luggage section that are higher end brands — not necessarily designer — on sale. It’s hit or miss, and you have to keep looking, but I’ve had good luck there.

      Case in point: I found a really nice black and white Guess tote. It has a name plate on it and it’s not leather, but it’s very well made and has held up well. Plus, it’s stylish and professional looking and big enough to hold everything. The only thing it lacks is a laptop sleeve, but I don’t often take my own machine to work with me.

    25. Mimosa Jones*

      I posted a link for a really cool one last week sometime…maybe the open work thread. I’m on my phone on a road trip or I’d look it up for you, but you can search on my name to find it. The bags have a zippered “garage” space at the bottom that can hold an insulated lunch sack, a padded space for a laptop, space above the garage for smaller stuff, and two side pockets big enough to hold a water bottle. It’s a woman owned small business. They’re on back order right now but are due in on March. Cost is about $150.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Minkeeblue is the bag you recommended. Mine is sitting at the post office for me to pick up tonight – I’m can’t wait!

    26. Constance Lloyd*

      Admittedly above your budget but comes with a lifetime warranty: Duluth Pack. They come in all leather (about $200.00) or canvas and leather (about $80.00). There are also some nice Vince Camuto totes on ThredUp right now, which are leather and dressier.

    27. Nom de Plume*

      I have a leather tote bag from Madewell. I absolutely love it, and the only reason I stopped carrying it to work daily is having something on one shoulder was causing issues with my back, so I switched to a backpack.

    28. Parenthetically*

      If you want genuine full-grain leather that will actually age gracefully, $100 probably won’t get you there. Waxed canvas, properly made, will stand up well over time and looks classic, and you can just sneak in under your budget for a good-size tote in waxed canvas.

    30. Jonno*

      Not a tote — but I have a fossil messenger bag that functions like this that my BF gave me as a gift and it’s AWESOME. Canvas with leather straps and super durable, lots of pockets, etc. Highly recommend, It’s maybe a few dollars more than your budget!

    31. msgumby*

      Looks like my previous comment may be stuck in moderation because I included a link, so: Nisolo Lori Tote. All leather, gorgeous, stands up to anything

    32. Hillary*

      I switch between a couple Kate Spade bags depending on the season – there are usually totes on their sale site and at the outlet stores. My current favorite is a small dressy backpack just large enough for my computer.

    33. Curmudgeon in California*

      I don’t do totes, but a good messenger bag that can hold a laptop and lunch can be used like a shoulder bag or cross-body messenger bag. The advantage of messenger bags is that they usually close with a zipper as well as a flap.

    36. Veronica Mars*

      As someone with a wee bit of OCD, I am beyond obsessed with my Dagne Dover classic tote.
      -A nice crosshatched patterned leather in a lot of colors
      -Really well constructed, with metal feet to keep the bottom off the ground
      -Zips closed to keep rain out
      -The handle is long enough to slip up over my shoulder even with my winter coat on
      -Has a neoprene sleeve to stand up my water bottle
      -Fits my (rather enormous) freezable PackIt lunchbag
      -Has separate laptop sleeve and notebook sleeve that easily fits my work laptop
      -Also has lots of little organizer pockets for pens, phone, business card, etc.
      -Does not list brand name or logos anywhere on it. I actually had to think on the name for a second

      I adore Kate Spade bags from a cuteness standpoint, but my beloved black one had the handles separate from the bag within a year. This is my replacement, going on 2 years of daily use.

      2. L*

        Seconding Dagne Dover for sure. I have one of their XL laptop bags and it holds up SO well. Not leather, but it’s my go-to even though I also have a leather Madewell tote (which has no pockets/dividers and things just become a jumbled mess…it’s also definitely showing its wear after only a year and a half).

    37. Purple*

      Wow, I was thinking of replacing my Baggallini tote, and have a list of what I narrowed it down to. (though not all of these are leather, I find that a smooth nylon is “dressy enough” for me… Here’s my list:

      – Ebags Savvy laptop tote 2
      – Caraa Sport Studio Tote
      – Michael Kors Kelsey Large
      – Baggallini Carry All Tote

      I bought one of them (The Caraa), but ultimately returned it and spiffed up my old Baggallini (had it cleaned and a strap on the verge of breaking repaired at a shoe repair) because I liked it better than anything else. Why didn’t I buy another Baggallini you might ask? Well, it comes down to features — My current bag has a perfect cell phone pocket that I literally use EVERY DAY and the new bag doesn’t have that…But in terms of keeping up with years of service and still looking great, it’s a good brand.

    38. Plus Ultra*

      I have a Timbuk2 Messenger bag that I’ve had for over 6 years. It’s canvas but super sturdy. You can customize the colors of some designs. It has a laptopo sleeve in it.

    39. AVP*

      The Madewell / J Crew Transport totes! They’re a little over your budget but go on sale pretty regularly. No logos although you can get a monogram. I fit my 13″ laptop, book or ipad, camera with lens, and regular purse stuff in mine regularly and it’s lasted in good condition for years with many more in sight (although I do polish and condition the leather once a year or so to keep it looking nice).

    40. LemonLyman*

      Portland Leather Goods (google the name of check on Etsy). Artisan leather vs dept store. I bought from them when they were a small garage store and my piece has held up well. Beautiful products!

    41. Almost graduated*

      Portland Leather Goods, if you want affordable high quality leather. Check out their almost perfect sale – my wallet as from there and I literally can’t find the issue

    42. Boldly Go*

      I’m 59, I work in NYC in a techie type role at a non profit. I commute to work so have to have things comfy and manageable.

      I gave up on tote bags and pocketbooks and… well anything that looks remotely nice and feminine.

      I use backpacks. It’s so much neater and so much better for my back. (With bags, I always felt my shoulders hurt). My latest love is patagonia (in fact, I joke that they’re so well made that I feel guilty about buying a new one).

      I take – breakfast, lunch, water bottle, coffee mug, small makeup bag, gym stuff, laptop.

      1. scribblingTiresias*

        If looks aren’t a consideration- you could also consider picking up a thinkgeek Bag of Holding or a similar Dungeons and Dragons Bag. I have one and I swear you can fit a smol army in there. It’s got so. many. pockets.
        (The Bag of Holding isn’t getting made anymore so you will have to pick one up used- sorry for the bad rec!)

  7. Amethyst*

    Anyone been the subject of coworkers watching your movements and bringing it to your boss’ attention so they then have to talk to you about it?

    Right now it’s stupid stuff: “Amethyst makes noise when she moves around in her chair.” “Amethyst spends too much time talking with coworkers.”/“Amethyst spends too much time away from her desk.” And the latest today is “Amethyst spends too much time in the bathroom.” I told Boss I have a medical issue and she stopped me right there and said she wasn’t gonna go any further. But still. This is getting absolutely ridiculous. This is my favorite job so far. (Next to no time needed on the phone, quiet environment, no dealing with people, I can wear whatever I want to work, and I can listen to music while working. Not to mention the flexibility it comes with, having work shut down occasionally due to snow or power outages, and the 4 weeks of vacation I currently have after being here four years, lol.) But it’s starting to feel…not hostile, but definitely lowkey covert toxic.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I have a coworker who used to do this. Kept track of how long our breaks were. What time we came and went. How long we were in the bathroom. Etc. My boss told her to knock it off. Personally, I think that is what your boss should be doing – unless it truly is impacting work being done.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yup. The boss doesn’t “have to” talk to you about it, OP! Your boss shouldn’t be relaying these things to you unless she sees them as a problem. She should really be telling your coworkers to cut it out and only come to her for things that are relevant to their work. Have you asked your boss: Do YOU think it’s an issue?

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        How in the world are people like this getting any work done if they’re too busy spying on their coworkers? Your boss should have given her more work to do because, clearly, she has the time.

        1. froodle*

          They’re not, all the ones I’ve known who were.like that were massive underperformers, but rather than try to up their work to everyone else’s standards they tried to drag the people around them down in order to look better in comparison

          1. Krabby*

            Yep. And subpar or inexperienced managers think, “Well, I need Amethyst to spend less time in the bathroom so that when I tell LazyBones the same thing, she can’t point to Amethyst and say she’s being treated unfairly.”
            When what they really need to do is say, “We’re not here to discuss Amethyst’s bathroom usage. She is performing at a level where I’m not concerned about a few minutes here or there. I still need X and Y from you though. I’m suggesting shorter bathroom trips as a possible solution, but the real problem is…”

        2. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

          That’s what I used to wonder about Self-Appointed Hall Monitor at ex-job. I had no idea how she ever got any work done. Hopefully they are giving her more to do now! Haha!

      1. Amethyst*

        Started almost a year ago. They laid me off in November 2018 and I came back last July. Not sure why they’re monitoring me since they were all thrilled to hear I was returning.

        1. Michelle*

          Yeah, that seems weird. I was thinking maybe if you were a new employee or there had been a lot of turnover and they were all new. I agree that you should ask your boss to shut it down. Jean, Person from the Resume and Rusty Shackelford below all have great scripts. Good luck!

    3. WellRed*

      Can you ask your boss to shut this down? “Boss, I’m starting to feel low-key harrassed by coworker tracking my movements, etc. What’s going on?”

      1. WellRed*

        Ofcourse, I’m also a big proponent of saying to the ringleader (because there will be one) “Who appointed you hall monitor?”

          1. Mama Bear*

            I’d piggyback on the conversation about the bathroom and say, “Boss, it seems like someone is trying to get you to believe that there is a problem with my professionalism and it’s become very awkward, as evidenced by the bathroom conversation. I’d like to hear from you directly if there are any significant issues I need to address. Otherwise this feels like I’m being watched by my team and that’s an uncomfortable situation. Can you please talk to the reporter about their behavior? I don’t even know who it is since they aren’t coming to me about anything.”

          2. Jules the 3rd*

            Maybe ask your manager if this is normal – a script like, “You know, we’ve had several conversations about this, and I’m trying to take the concerns seriously. But, do you have concerns with my work? If you don’t have concerns, can you filter this for me a little bit, and help me focus on ways to make my work better? These are getting distracting.”

      2. LKW*

        This. “This is the nth time you’ve brought me into your office to discuss. Are you concerned with my performance or my squeaky chair? If you’re not concerned, then I’m unclear on why we are discussing this. Is there something you can do to put a stop to this?”

    4. Jean*

      Confront. “I noticed you’ve been tracking and reporting my actions to my supervisor, which I find odd. Is there a reason you feel the need to do this?” Keep tone calm and even, maintain eye contact, and be silent while waiting for them to answer. For 9/10 people, this will be enough for them to get the message that you are Not The One to be pulling these shenanigans with. That 1/10 will respond in a way that tells you they feel entitled to do this. In that case you will need to escalate to your manager that you feel hostility from this person and it’s making you uncomfortable.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      It’s really your boss’s job to shut your co-worker down and not bring it up to you. She doesn’t HAVE TO talk to you about it; she’s been choosing to do so.

      You can maybe prompt her by having a big picture discussion with your boss and say “This keeps coming up and it’s been nothing each time. Can you tell coworker to stop tracking and reporting my movements to you?” but honestly that’s not your job. Your boss should have figured this out on her own already.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This. “Boss, are you unhappy with my productivity? Do you think I should be doing more? Because otherwise I don’t understand why you’re paying attention to rumors about how I spend my time.”

        1. snoopythedog*

          Yup. This.

          Combined with “hearing reports of how my coworkers are tracking me makes me feel uncomfortable in my work space. I’m trusting you as my boss to bring forward legitimate issues with me. Hearing others complaints through you makes me feel as if you agree them with. If these issues are not legitimate, I would hope that you are shutting down this unnecessary talk and gossiping about my medical and other issues”

    6. OperaArt*

      Your boss doesn’t have to talk to you about it. She has other options, such as telling the weirdly involved colleagues to knock it off.
      Do you have a good enough relationship with her to discuss options?

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            This is a possibility, but I would imagine if the OP asks her manager directly about what’s going on, the manager may then actually talk about whatever is really bothering her about the OP’s conduct. Or not. If I was OP, I’d use Rusty’s script in any case so she can see the manager’s response.

      2. Not Me*

        +100. There’s no reason the boss should be entertaining these “complaints” at this point, and should be shutting it down.

    7. CatCat*

      That sounds incredibly annoying. Your boss needs to find out from the people complaining what the problem actually is before addressing anything with you. She doesn’t “have to” talk to you about any of this. Your chair makes noise? You’re in the bathroom “too long”? You’re away from your desk “too long”?

      So what.

      What does any of that have to do with work getting done or not done? Your boss should be looking for more info on an actual problem. If it turns out there is no “there” there with the complaints, she should be telling your coworkers to knock it off.

    8. Muriel Heslop*

      I teach middle school and this behavior is very big with that age. Students who do this I send away, and then discipline if it continues. I try to encourage people to work with their peer before bringing it to me.

      It’s super-annoying. What is your boss’ reaction? It’s unclear to me from your letter.

      1. Amethyst*

        Mostly just eye-rolls and doing her duty as a boss to check in as concerns/complaints were raised. I’m assuming for her own documentation purposes. She well knows that the complaints are just dumb. She did say she wasn’t trying to be malicious asking me about the bathroom trips but did say she’d reach out to HR and see what they want to do, and mentioned that they might ask me to clock out if I’m going to be in there for a while due to my medical issue. But at this point nothing’s solid re: that.

        Everyone here is between the ages of 26-pushing 70.

        1. Muriel Heslop*

          Sadly, chronological age often has no bearing on emotional age. I’m so sorry you are dealing with this. This is almost never the behavior of people who feels confident or secure in themselves. I’m glad your boss is annoyed rather than giving it credence – I hope it stops soon!

          1. valentine*

            doing her duty as a boss to check in as concerns/complaints were raised. I’m assuming for her own documentation purposes. She well knows that the complaints are just dumb.
            There is no need to check with you about childish complaints. She can tell them to stop and that it is a performance issue: theirs.

            She did say she wasn’t trying to be malicious asking me about the bathroom trips but did say she’d reach out to HR and see what they want to do, and mentioned that they might ask me to clock out if I’m going to be in there for a while due to my medical issue.
            There’s no need for this if it isn’t affecting your work and, if it were, I would think you’d already be working later or whatever. I think Alison has said bathroom breaks up to 20 minutes have to be paid, so, be sure they don’t short you.

            1. Working Mom*

              I don’t have an exact script… but I’m wondering if some conversation with your boss next step a “complaint” is communicated to you – even if boss shares it with an eyeroll, etc. Can we craft a phrase that says something like, “Hey can we agree these ‘complaints” are ridiculous? If my performance is on point and these are not real issues, I’d like to stop giving them life by discussing them.”

              Maybe there’s also something to add in like “and can you please discuss with whomever these are coming from that they are not appropriate?”

              I don’t have the right words – maybe someone else does!

              As a side note – I once had an EE resign and when I got access to her files (to move any relevant files to the shared drive) I found an exhaustive list of “complaints” about another EE. It was a list of dates/times and comments, non-verbals, etc. It was so completely absurd!!!

        2. Bostonian*

          No! You being the only one clocking out to use the restroom? Isn’t that essentially docking your pay because of a medical issue? That seems like a liability on their part.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            That is horrible practice, not to mention an extreme overreaction by going to HR about this in the first place.

            Something in the milk ain’t clean here.

            1. Amethyst*

              Thank you. That’s what I think too, but again, nothing has come of it yet. Today’s the first I’ve heard of the latest complaint. The parent company is huge–several million employees total in the US alone–so I’m sure they’re not going to dock my pay. My boss isn’t HR (HR is off-site) so she was just coming up with examples when we discussed it & said she’d wait for HR to come back with what they need from me (if anything) to accommodate my issue.

              1. Diahann Carroll*

                You might want to be proactive and reach out to HR yourself. Not in a “I’m tattling on my boss” type of way, but in a “I’m having these issues with anonymous reports about my bathroom usage and I have a medical issue – is there something I need to be doing or reporting to you all so my coworkers can stop bringing this up” kind of way. But only do this if you think your HR benefits coordinator can be discreet. If they can’t, tread carefully.

                1. Amethyst*

                  Thanks, I’ll do that if I’m dissatisfied with HR’s reply to Boss about it. I don’t think I will; HR at my company is excellent & I haven’t had any issues with them in the four years I’ve worked there. Hopefully I’ll know by Tuesday or so what they need from me (a doctor’s note stating I need accommodation? Nothing? Something else? Who knows) & go from there.

        3. Jack Russell Terrier*

          I wonder how she’s ‘doing her duty as a boss to check in as concerns/complaints were raised’. Boss hears complaints, takes them under advisement *while* telling Complainer it’s not her job to monitor people – it’s Boss’s job. Boss goes ahead and does that, notices there’s nothing to the complaints in this case and documents that herself without involving you. Complainer comes back – Boss says ‘we’ve discussed this before, please concentrate on your work and don’t monitor your fellow colleagues – that’s my job’. Boss tells you only that she’s told Complainer not to monitor you that you are fine and ignore Complainer – Boss will deal with Complainer. This is part of being a manager. She has the power – you don’t.

          The bathroom breaks are beside the point and not her business (ha) – she didn’t need to bring it up. As long as she’s satisfied with your work long bathroom breaks are irrelevant, you’ll still get your work done, assuming you’re exempt.

          1. Working Mom*

            Yes – I have had employees come to me with absurd things like this about other people. “Did you know that Sally has been coming in 15 min late every day for weeks?” etc. My response to those people was always “you worry about yourself – I’ll worry about other people” – while also noting that there may agreements that she was unaware of. (B/c I always wanted to nip in the bud that something was wrong if it wasn’t. and honestly – even if something was wrong it’s none of her business.)

            So yeah, I’d wonder about that too. Wonder if your boss wasn’t sure what was going on and shared it with you to gauge your reaction??

    9. AnonyMouse*

      Unfortunately, yes. It was like no one was allowed to take a break except for her! Unfortunately, my boss in my old job didn’t shut it down. The person eventually left, but it still felt like I was being watched constantly. I hated it, so I definitely feel your pain.

    10. RestResetRule*

      A past coworker of mine joined me in the elevator one morning when I was feeling grumpy and apparently reported to my boss from that one experience that “I seemed unhappy and unenthusiastic about going to work.” That ish came up in my annual performance review. So, apparently, one morning of RBF (resting bitch face to the layman) isn’t acceptable.

      I left, obviously.

      2. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Wow. Sounds like your manager wasn’t doing their job if a hearsay report from a few minutes in the elevator one morning turned up in your performance review.

        And what was the coworker’s deal reporting that to your manager? I hope that ex-coworker went and got a life! I’m sorry you had that experience and am glad you got out.

    11. NaoNao*

      This sounds a little odd, but do you work for a library? I was subject to very similar “monitoring” when I worked as a clerk for the library. I couldn’t understand it, but my best guess was I worked in the children’s area, which was a separate part mostly away from the public’s prying eyes and really far away from the boss. The clerks who worked circulation (this was before self check out) felt like they were on display and being held to a standard that I wasn’t, even though that wasn’t super true.

    12. ProperDose*

      wow I’m having flashbacks now to when an ex- co-worker was doing this to me! it’s oddly comforting that I’m not the only one who experienced such a thing. It just seemed SO STRANGE that someone would take the time to do this.
      They would say things to me like “wow! that was a big yawn!”, comment on how much I sighed at work, comment on my walking gait in a concerned tone (???). Be oddly intrusive with other random things. Took an opportunity to tell me what they thought all of my negative traits are “you’re too sensitive” “too obsessive over things” “talk too loud”.
      I did bring it to the attention of my boss, asking if there’s anything wrong with my work performance, because X coworker said this stuff to me. To which my boss said this was all news to them, and didn’t agree.

      It was a toxic environment that I was dealing with, but this coworker just added on to it, and it drove my mental health down the toilet. I took FMLA leave to recover, quit that job, and moved to a new city :)

      1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Your ex-coworker sounds psychotic. What kind of person talks to their colleagues that way?

    13. Hedgehug*

      I don’t even understand why, if your manager agrees these complaints are stupid (which they are) why are they are telling you about them, instead of telling the person/s to stop their pointless complaining?
      “No, I’m not going to tell Amethyst about that, because it’s a non-issue that you need to learn how to grow up and deal with.” Like, squeaky chair?? That isn’t your fault. Are they asking your manager to get you a new chair, or blaming you for the squeaky chair?
      These complaints being told to you serve absolutely no purpose other than to make you paranoid and upset you. That is what I would be telling your boss. “Hey, I just need to let you know, that when you tell me these complaints, I find they serve no purpose, to which you seem to agree, and they only leave me feeling upset, hurt and paranoid that everyone is watching me. Can you please put an end to it?”

    14. What She Said*

      Another possible scenario: are you sure someone else is monitoring and it’s not actually coming from your boss? I had a boss who would bring things up like this, small non-work affecting stuff, and over time it became very clear it was her. She was just putting the blame on someone else and would never admit it was actually her complaint. Because they were silly and petty things I simply stopped caring and listening to her when she’d pull me aside.

    15. Minimax*

      Yes! And it is 100% a boss problem. Boss is being passive, not managing your coworker, and then passing off unhelpful nitpicky comments to you. All of that is innappropriate. It reeks of “Im too passive to manage so I share unhelpful critical feedback in the guise of managing”. I can guarantee you the boss is just saying to the other person “Ill address it with amethyst”

    16. Stornry*

      I’ve had this too — spending too much time chatting (I’m an introvert; I very rarely “chat”) and “hovering” when someone else is talking to the Admin (when if they’d just stop for a second and let me ask my question and leave….). But the thing is, the last time it was “a thing” my supervisor actually did “have to talk” to me because the complainer was HER boss. Sup knew it was stupid but since her boss was the complainer, well…. there you go.

    17. Amethyst*

      UPDATE:

      I went back to Boss using a version of Rusty’s script (thank you!). She was completely unconcerned with my productivity; she has no issues whatsoever with that & she has observed that I get my stuff done. Boss said she points out the reverse of the situations to Complainers when they come to her about So & So: “You’re spending X amount of time watching everyone else; how in the world are you getting your own stuff done?” (as an example). She also tells them that optics aren’t everything when they approach her again about an issue she’s already addressed with Complainer’s Subject, & reminds them it’s an HR issue & it’s none of their business to know what was discussed. These same people have also gone above her head to HR with a few different people, so she knows how they play. She called herself the highest paid babysitter in [our state], if not the country based on Complainers’ antics, & has warned them to mind their own business.

      Boss approached me out of the POV of “Do we need to give her more bathroom breaks because of ___ or any other accommodation due to the frequency of these trips?” not “This is affecting her productivity so this is a problem.” because, again, she doesn’t care about productivity. That, & our parent company has a slew of policies & procedures in place that require her to document the steps she’s taken to address an issue raised. Our parent company, I learned, is much more strict than we are (they’re very much “butts in seats” unless excused) which makes me appreciate my job much more as they’ve worked hard to shield us from that mentality.

      My boss is a good one; she’s not passive-aggressive & she doesn’t hide behind others to deliver her message.

      I work in a medical billing office, not a library. :)

      Thank you all for your feedback; it really helped.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Well, I’m glad you’ve sorted (most of) this out. I breathed a sigh of relief for you that your manager wasn’t actually the one making up these complaints for fear of having a direct conversation with you – that kind of thing drives me crazy. I just needs to continue shutting the complainers down and stop bringing their nonsense to you.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        That’s good, but it still doesn’t explain why she’s listening to these complaints and actually bringing them to you.

      3. MacGillicuddy*

        I had a busybody coworker like this. She complained to our boss: “MacGillicuddy comes in late and leaves early so I don’t know how they’re getting their work done!” With boss’s approval I was working until 8 pm some nights and some Saturdays. Busybody coworker didn’t know this & I didn’t tell her, because it was none of her business. She’d make snide comments to me, which I ignored
        Boss told me what she replied to coworker: “I don’t have a problem with MacGillicuddy not getting their work done.”
        I’m sure that coworker’s understanding of that was “MacGillicuddy doesn’t get their work done, but I don’t have a problem with that.”
        I’m sure it bugged the heck out of coworker. I refused to justify myself to her.

    18. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Are you 100% sure it’s actually coming from the co-worker(s) and isn’t just the Boss having her own ‘complaints’ but attributing them to other people for whatever reason?

      Can you think of anything that changed around the time this started happening?

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        Sorry I didn’t hit refresh so the first part is irrelevant! But I’m still curious what’s prompted it to start, if anything has made these people start doing this?

    19. Greasy turtle burger*

      Wow…I wonder how much time your co-worker is wasting while keeping up with what your doing?

    20. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Oh no! Do you work with the same Self-Appointed Hall Monitor as I did at ex-job? Sounds just like her (even if you don’t know who it is). This person must have a lot of time on their hands if they are spending it monitoring you and bringing the air you breathe to your boss’s attention.

      It might be good for you to document how you spend your time and what you work on and accomplish each day. Not in painful detail, but enough to be able to show your boss exactly what you have been doing. It’s also good, in any case, to give your boss regular updates so she knows what you’re doing. Not to invite micromanagement, but to CYA with your boss. You could mention what you’ve been up to in your weekly one-on-one meetings (if you have them) or just send her an email update either daily or weekly.

      I hope you’re able to resolve this soon and are able to work in peace at your otherwise great job!

  8. pally*

    So what does a background check -for a non-government job -usually consist of?
    I’m wondering how in-depth-or how far back- they go in regards to one’s employment history.
    Would getting the dates wrong on a job from long ago result in a disqualification?
    Thank you.

    1. Miss May*

      Depends on the job, honestly. Sometimes I’ve never had to fill anything out, but my partner had a way more in depth one. He accidentally messed up a section of the form, and he just called the contact back to fix it. It wasn’t a huge deal.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      The depth of the background check really depends on the job, but if your dates are close to accurate you should be fine. If they are wildly off so that it looks like trying to hide something that could result in a request for explanation or a disqualification.

    3. ffd*

      They should tell you how far back they go. I’ve had some background checks that didn’t do much, but my current industry is pretty intense (as in, they’ll ask for two people who can prove you were doing what you said you were doing, then ask those people for another person to confirm). I try to get within a week or two of when I started, and that’s never been an issue (so far).

    4. Anna*

      It really depends on the job. I have a non-government job, but one that handles private data and I needed to provide 10 years of work history and wound up needing to provide paystubs and tax forms for two jobs (a bartending job from college and a contracting job) that they were unable to confirm. Had I not been able to provide them I think it might have resulted in disqualification and definitely would have resulted in some follow up questions.

    5. Sunflower*

      It probably won’t disqualify you but it might hold up the process. 2 jobs ago, I started in one dept part-time and switched to another dept full time after 3 months. When my company did the background check for my current job, OldCompany gave my start dates as the full time job instead of the total time. I was freaking out but my company was fine with it and didn’t even bother going back to them. If you’re concerned, you can always call HR and have them verify that your dates are aligned.

      They usually just call HR depts and ask to verify job title and employment dates. Depending on the position, they might run a credit/criminal check. Some places may request college transcripts but I’ve never seen it as far as I know.

    6. LKW*

      Depends on the job. Could be financial, criminal and if you have to pee in a cup or have your hair snipped, drug use.

    7. RagingADHD*

      The one I had to do a few years ago went all the way back to forever, but IIRC there was enough space on the form that I could put (est.) or (approx.)

      I’m sure most people can’t swear under oath whether their official start date on a job 10+ years ago was in March or April, or whatever.

      1. Brioche*

        Funnily enough, I’m currently applying for my state’s bar exam and you basically have to swear under oath that the dates you’ve provided for all of your jobs within the last 10 years are accurate. It’s…stressful.

        1. Amy Sly*

          Oh Lord, don’t give me flashbacks to that! Made so much worse by the fact that bar exam 1 was when my husband had been switched after the fact to a 1099 and so we were on the hook for $4K of employment taxes while basically living on student loans, and then bar exam 2 was only a couple years after our foreclosure. (“Yes, we technically owe a $17K deficiency payment, but the bank has yet to ask for it” was a fun memo to write.)

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          If you had to provide dates to your law school, try to pull up a copy of your application. That way you have the same estimated month of employment for each job. My state recommended this because they cross referenced information with your law school records.

          What worked well for me was keeping a printed copy of my government security clearance paperwork. I’ve been able to find all of those random dates years down the road for different applications!

        3. RagingADHD*

          Yeah, I could probably do up to 10 years with a little digging. But I am old enough to have outlived many, many computers and quite a few of the smaller businesses I worked for, if we’re going all the way back to my first job ever. They just had to rely on my best guess.

          I got the clearance, so it wasn’t a problem.

      2. Kyrielle*

        Yep! If I had to do an exhaustive list of jobs, there’s one I could at best put “1 day in the summer, sometime in the 1990s”.

        Dude, I was still in school, and I noped out of that workplace so fast I don’t remember a single detail about the company. (I remember a lot of details about the job and the calls I was making. Asked if the job required cold-call sales, was told no, found myself doing cold-call surveys and encouraging people to vote particular ways based on organization membership.)

    8. Elizabeth West*

      Most of my jobs simply checked dates of employment with previous employers and my references. Some of them didn’t even bother with the references. I’ve never worked anywhere an FBI-level check would be done, although when I applied for an internship at OldCity PD, they asked for every address where I’d ever lived within a lengthy period. I really had to reach back for that.

    9. Breezer*

      Generally, 7-10 years of prior employment, plus your most recent degree. You want to be as close as you can – a month or two won’t matter, but 3+ months will get flagged in the system, and 6+ months could be cause for a formal review.

      1. Rollergirl09*

        In banking it is typically the previous 10 years, credit report, finger printing, criminal background check, and drug test (if your company does that-mine doesn’t).

        One good way to refresh your memory on dates of employment is to pull a credit report on annualcreditreport[dot]com and see what years they had you working at what jobs. If you’re off by a month or two they typically don’t get too bent out of shape. If you said you worked at Acme Teapots for three years and you worked there for 18 months, that’s a problem.

    10. whocanpickone*

      It depends on the industry, but ours (tech) are a credit report and a criminal background check. It isn’t usually checking the prior employment. We might do that with references, etc, but it isn’t an official part of the background check.

    11. pally*

      Thanks all! You’ve been very helpful. I’ve never experienced a background check. At a recent interview they told me they would do this.
      It scared me. I don’t have a record, have a high credit score and a long, stable job history.

      I figured they would reject me if I got the dates incorrect for a job 30 years ago with a company that no longer exists. Maybe they won’t believe my history if that happens. Or they might include a check on family members who are convicted criminals (!).

    12. Anon Here*

      The ones that I’ve done have only included criminal history. Sometimes they include traffic violations. The ones that involve working with minors have included a Live Scan where they take finger prints. They care about felonies and misdemeanors that could signify a danger to other people. They have never cared that I took an illegal left turn five years ago. They’ve never verified my dates of employment either (that I know of).

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      This would be a good idea for a ‘things to teach teens’ list: keep a running list of your addresses & jobs so you don’t have to regenerate it later.
      This would also be a good topic for discussion with advocates for the homeless & foster kids–how do you fill those out without revealing more than you want? How many people who grew up without a stable address get discouraged from applications with background checks?
      (I couldn’t do it and I DID have a stable home growing up — I don’t know the address of my apartment in college, or of some shared rentals in the first yeats after graduation.)

  9. queen b*

    I just… don’t have a lot to do at work. I thought it was just a slow period, but nothing has been coming in. I’m a contract employee, and I want to prove my worth in order to get hired full time, but I feel like my boss is kind of steamrolling me and just does things for me. I don’t want her to do this, I want to learn!!! I’m really frustrated, and considering job searching even though it’s only been 3 months. Unfortunately, it wouldn’t be possible to take a pay cut which I fear I may have to do to find a job that I like. Any advice if you’ve been in similar situations?

    I already ask for more work to do, but after I while I just stopped because it felt pedantic and no changes were happening.

    1. Uncannycanuck*

      Start job searching, but not for anything at a pay cut. Keep an eye on positions within the company to move into, as that’s the easiest move (and you can say you’re applying for anything permanent internal).
      Then figure out what you can do to stay sane. Can you listen to podcasts/audio books while you work or “work”? Can you take an online course sort of related to your work? Can you read technical content to improve your knowledge base?

      1. queen b*

        this is good advice, thank you! I should look into courses I can take…. I am also considering talking to my consulting firm boss and being like, hey, I’m not sure this role is for me – is there anything we can do about it. I don’t know if it’s in their best interest to pull me from the project, but we’ll see!

        1. foolofgrace*

          That would also give your contracting company a head’s up that your contract might be ending early. It’s happened to me when I was a contract employee. Contract terminated early, not because I was a bad employee but because… budgetary reasons? I’ll never know. But telling your company might have them looking for something else for you.

    2. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      This was me for pretty much all of 2019. I work for a construction company and we had two large projects going, but they were out of town. Normally I would travel between job sites about 30% of my week for local projects, but with projects further away that’s not an option. In 2019 I spent way more time at my desk than I had in the 5 years I’ve worked for company.

      Part of the problem was that my boss traveled to the far away projects almost weekly, but I would only do a trip there once a month. My boss and I have had several conversations about how he needs to delegate to me more, especially when he travels and can’t be in the office, but he’s notoriously bad at not being able to let go of control. I finally told him that when we do projects like that, I end up spending about a third of my time sitting at my desk reading news articles (and getting addicted to AAM!). If I’m having to wait on him to get back to the office to give me tasks, then I spend a lot of my time being unproductive! I hate feeling unproductive, so it was really affecting my satisfaction with my job. He took that to heart and finally started giving some of what was on his plate.

      I would say you need to talk to your manager about it. Let them know that you want to learn, want to be productive, and want to feel like you’re really contributing. In the meantime, I like Uncannycanuck’s idea to do an online course. I’ve been brushing up on my Spanish with Duolingo in my downtime. It’s relevant to my job to at least be able to understand Spanish, so I’m trying to get better. I’ve been pretty honest with my boss that I do that for like 30 minutes a day while I’m at work.

      Good luck!

    3. Koala dreams*

      I think it’s a great idea to job search. Since you are not an employee, you are not expected to stay on for years, and if work slows down to the point of laying people off, contractors are often first to go.

      You can also have a conversation with your boss where you make it clear that you are interested in taking on more work. It’s not an either-or situation.

  10. Seifer*

    How ridiculous is it that I have to train my boss and my other coworker how to do my job because we’re a team now and I get paid the least out of all of these people. And when I went to talk to my grandboss about it, he said, I don’t understand what the problem is, I gave you the highest raise in the company, 5%!!!

    Well, yeah, but… if you’re talking real dollars, you can afford to give me that much of a raise because if you gave someone else a 1% raise it would be more than what I got. Ugh. So frustrating.

    2. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I hear you about the overall raise amount, but likewise, training your coworkers on how to do your job because you’re a team is totally normal. This is a thing professionals do, at most pay grades. Please try to separate in your mind ‘normal professional job duty’ from ‘I’m not paid enough’.

      As an example: In addition to training, I’m writing a guide on my position, which is currently 95 pages of step by step directions with screenshots and notable exceptions listed. I’m only about halfway done.

      If the low pay is truly an issue and no raises are forthcoming, it may be time to look for other employment.

      1. Seifer*

        We were not a team before. We are now a team. I have a new boss and a new coworker, neither of which have any background or knowledge in my job, and I am the only one that does my job.

        1. Miss Mouse*

          I think it is totally normal for your boss and a coworker to be trained by you on how to your job so that (1) your boss can better understand what the job does and requires which will also allow her to better support you and to evaluate your performance and (2) your coworker can act as your back-up in case you are out of office, busy and need assistance, quit, etc. All members of our department have their primary job duties and also are trained as back-ups for their co-workers, and we are all at various pay grades. Please look at this as an opportunity to integrate with your new team and show them how excellent you are at your job.

        2. Fikly*

          That’s why you need to train them, because they need that background and knowledge to work with you effectively.

          If you don’t want to be part of a team, or you want to be paid more, that’s a very separate issue. What you are being asked to do is not only reasonable, but best practices.

        3. EinJungerLudendorff*

          Like others said: if you are the only one who know how to do your job, then that is a big potential problem for management.

    3. LKW*

      Are they learning your job so that you can take time away from the office? Wouldn’t that be to your advantage? I’m assuming that their jobs are different and they aren’t just doing what you do – but for more money.

    4. Bed Bath ab*

      Not ridiculous at all. Perfectly normal and reasonable, in fact. I think if you find it so ridiculous you probably have other issues with this job, or you have some very unrealistic expectations.

    5. Bed Bath AND Beyond*

      Not ridiculous at all. Perfectly normal and reasonable, in fact. I think if you find it so ridiculous you probably have other issues with this job, or you have some very unrealistic expectations.

  11. Muriel Heslop*

    My husband is job-hunting for the first time (he’s always been recruited) in his early 50s and we are both overwhelmed. He’s a lawyer currently employed by the government and would like to transition out of the public sector. His age and not having portable business are both huge strikes, and additionally the firms he works that hire people with similar experience with want him to stay where he is because he’s such a strong litigator and easy to work with. I’m in a completely unrelated field (teaching) – can anyone share any wisdom with us? We are both frustrated.

      1. irene adler*

        Yeah- find the specialized recruiter.
        In addition to reaching out to past recruiters, might do a little networking. Does the local Bar Association have any sort of meetings he might attend? Might go to a few and ask folks if they know any names of specialized recruiters. It might take asking several people, but there’s always some names folks “in the biz” know about, who specializes. Might also build a network for job searching as well. Also might see if they have any kind of help with the job search: seminars, networking events, etc.

        Bit of a long shot: visit LinkedIn and see if there’s a group pertaining to his specialty that he might join. Or a group local to your area. Then see who frequents this group. Some recruiters tend to ‘hang out’ there, searching for folks to fit positions they need to fill. Some are very involved in the field and will be an excellent source of knowledgeable suggestions on resume and job searching, folks to know, etc.

        And, get some guidance on a non-government resume. I know gov’t wants these to be many pages in length; folks outside gov’t want the opposite. Concentrate on recent work experiences. And keep the length down to a few pages. This might also be a good topic to ask about when talking with folks at Bar Association meetings.

        1. RecoveringSWO*

          +1 on attending bar association meetings for the section of law he practices. He’ll likely get the best intel there.

          At 50, he probably has a pension lined up from the govt job, that security in retirement may open more career choices now. Does he want to keep practicing in his current field? Does he need to make the same salary he currently makes? Is moving an option?

          My Aunt opened up a Wills & Estates practice as a 2nd career in her late 50s. It allowed her to live in a lower COL town and enjoy more control over her job/hours as her priorities changed later in life. Her age seems to be beneficial as many clients are her age or older and prefer having an attorney her age for these sorts of matters. So changing practices might be something to think about.

          I also know a number of attorneys who choose consulting or government contracting jobs over attorney positions because they simply couldn’t pay off their loans with the legal jobs they were offered. Based on your lobbying comment, I imagine that your husband wouldn’t want to shift careers just to maintain his pay. I suggest that he tries to find a specialist headhunter and attends lots of bar association events to network–I bet there are resources for transitioning civil servants through federal government employee associations as well. Good luck!

    2. lost academic*

      I agree about finding a specialized recruiter. I also know how hard this would be to manage, but it might be worth checking into academia, even with how tight the market for law professors is everywhere, all the time – but it’s an extra avenue to check.

    3. Goldfinch*

      He wouldn’t need a book if he was looking at in-house positions, would he? Can he pivot to something business-specific, like IP or regulatory compliance?

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        He has a lot of regulatory experience and has litigated some high-level cases but his background is *very specific*. He has had interest from some lobby groups, but he is very clear that he doesn’t want to do that.
        He has interviewed with a few companies who have thought he was too specialized for what they need and too expensive.

        And has no IP background, sadly. Lots of that available.

      2. Legally a Vacuum*

        We have in-house litigation counsel- definitely worth looking outside firms. GoInHouse dot com was a good resource when I was job hunting.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      If he’s a litigator, and in-house litigation coordinator position is a likely transition job.

    6. Auntie Social*

      Does he have friendships with defense attorneys? Friendships with the same jobs in different cities, maybe that you went to continuing ed with? Former prosecutors often become defense lawyers for much more money–good prosecutors make even better criminal defense attorneys. And there are specialized, lawyers-only head hunters in the larger cities.

    7. Muriel Heslop*

      Thanks for the great advice, everyone! He has a really specialized background and there isn’t a huge market for it everywhere. He’s overqualified for a lot of the things we have seen and the one recruiter he met with didn’t seem interested because doesn’t do tech/IP. And of course, he’s swamped at work without a lot of time to job hunt.
      He’s only been recruited by other lawyers – he has never worked with a recruiter.

      We will start looking for new recruiters and maybe start accepting that a relocation is in our future.

  12. Cliff*

    Does anyone have suggestions for how to develop your reports to be better managers if you yourself never had any formal management training?

    1. Uncannycanuck*

      Office book club about relevant books that will help you explore improving management skills. I’d suggest “Crucial Conversations” as an example.

    2. SarahKay*

      Get them reading this column.
      I would never choose to be a manager again (I did it for three years, and wasn’t *bad* at it; merely average, but for a disproportionate amount of my effort. Turns out I like working with spreadsheets a whole lot more than directing people!) but if for some reason I had to I know that I would do a far better job of it having discovered AAM a couple of years ago.

      1. Forever Annon*

        How did you transition out of your management role?

        Did you end up having to take a pay cut in your new position?

        1. SarahKay*

          It was retail, about 15 years ago, and the company went bust so I had no choice. I was sad to leave the store, but not sorry to leave the management role. After that I applied for admin roles, and got one which was about a 10% pay cut in base pay but the overtime and hours were better.
          Then I moved to finance three years after starting the admin role, having put myself through evening classes to get an accounting qualification, and rapidly outpaced my retail management salary from there.
          When interviewing for admin roles I did get the questions about why I wanted to stop being a manager, how would I handle the step down, etc, but I was just clear when discussing it that I’d tried it and knew it wasn’t for me and was happy to have the change in direction.
          I can see that stepping down from a non-retail management role could well entail a bigger pay cut, I guess depending how far up the ladder one is. I’m also aware that my refusal to manage anyone in my current company means I’m approaching the limits of any upwards progression, but my manager knows I understand and accept that. (Also, he knows a good thing when he sees it, so isn’t about to try and force me into it!) I earn enough – comfortably enough – to pay my mortgage and bills, and buy treats / go on holiday etc so my feeling is, why make myself miserable just for more money?

    4. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I find the tools from Managing to Change the World (co-authored by our fearless leader Alison) to be really helpful.

  13. Spills*

    An exciting update and a time-sensitive question:

    After three years of working in a soul crushing exhausting job (in a hotel) I have finally received an offer for a new job in-house at a firm planning events. The new role is perfect for me, the team seems amazing, the hours and pay are way better, and most of all, I won’t have to deal with hotel guests anymore.

    However I’ve come across one final snag before I’m free – I’m due my Q4 bonus check, and it’s been delayed for two weeks now. I was due to get it today and give my notice on Monday, but we just found out that the checks are delayed another week. My new job has been really understanding thus far and my background check JUST cleared, but I don’t know if I can ask them to push back another week, but I also am not in a financial position to walk away from a $7K check.

    I feel like I’m between a rock and a hard place – I don’t want to lose this new job opportunity for seeming wishy-washy, but I also want to make sure I give sufficient notice. If it comes down to it, I may need to get the check next Friday and then give only one week notice. Is there ever a time when giving a weeks notice is acceptable or will I burn this bridge forever?

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Have you explained the issue to your new employer? At the very least, you would seem a lot less wishy-washy when it is tied to economic well-being vs. just can’t get in gear.

      Who knows, maybe they’ll offer to match bonus up front just to get you in the door. I don’t know that it is likely, but it is a thing which is possible. And being honest and straightforward with them up front is a good way to start a job.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. Outside of bringing it up with the new employer, you may just need to be okay with giving a one week notice. I wouldn’t walk away from $7k either.

    2. WellRed*

      Since your background check just cleared, I think you are OK to try and just push the start date a bit, (say you need to give X amount of notice, or whatever). BUT. What if the bonus checks get delayed again? How sure are you they will come in two weeks?

      1. Spills*

        Yes, but the background check took a bit longer than expected, and I’ve also been open with the new job about waiting for the check to clear. They were hoping I would have given notice on Monday of this week to target a first week of March start date but there was a delay with the background check (which sort of worked in my favor), but now with this check situation I will not be able to give notice on this coming Monday as planned, so would be starting two weeks later than they were originally hoping for. I’m hoping they can have a bit more flex and that one more week won’t matter in the grand scheme of things but we will have to see!

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          But how do you know it’s actually coming in a week though? If it’s been delayed a few times, it may be delayed again, and you can’t expect your new employer to keep pushing back their start date on the hopes that your current employer will get their shit together – they have an immediate staffing need and could potentially move on to the next candidate.

          1. Spills*

            Great question – the past two weeks have kind of been a speculation of ok I think it’s coming this Friday. I know it sounds very fishy but to be honest that is usually the way the commission checks are handled – no one talks about it and they come when they come, unfortunately. However today my director said definitively that the checks will be paid next Friday. I think it’s because a few sales managers are starting to get pissy now since we’re almost three months past Q4 so she pushed our corporate team to give us a firm answer. There is always a chance that it could get pushed again, which is why I’m so frustrated.

            1. TootsNYC*

              is this a commission check? In which case, they can’t refuse to pay it to you.

              if it’s a bonus, they might be able to say “you have to be employed on the day they’re issued” or something, if they regard it as an incentive more than a compensation..

    3. J.B.*

      Contact a lawyer. BTW if they hold up your bonus check in my view they are not entitled to notice. They aren’t paying you, you don’t owe them that courtesy. And honestly I would be concerned it’s not coming anyway. DON’T GIVE UP THE NEW JOB.

      1. Spills*

        Very true! The entire team is waiting for their checks and starting to get very antsy, but obviously for me there is another level of urgency. I don’t unfortunately have anything in writing saying either way whether a check should be paid out even if I’m in my notice period, but I’ve been told by a trusted colleague they will not pay it out if I’ve given notice. However I was here for that entire quarter and did the work, so I definitely should be compensated. A lawyer may not be the worst idea!

          1. RagingADHD*

            An employer who doesn’t give you your regilar paycheck on time is violating labor laws and you have clear recourse to the authorities to help get your money.

            No harm asking a lawyer for local laws, but generally speaking a bonus is not wages, and therefore you don’t have the same legal protection against it being delayed or taken away.

            1. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

              That’s how I would think of it as well. When I quit a job in sales I had difficulty getting my last commission check because my boss was pissed that I quit. That WAS owed to me because it was compensation for doing the job. However, a bonus is a gift from the company, so they might not feel inclined to give it to Spills if they give notice.

              1. Spills*

                It’s technically a commission/incentive check rather than a bonus, if that helps! It’s based off the total revenue I booked and serviced in Q4, not discretionary

                1. Jules the 3rd*

                  Yeah, but it’ll take time to pry it from them, and the effort is more likely to annoy them than a short notice will. Go with the 1 week or less notice.

          2. Jules the 3rd*

            You can not withhold a normal paycheck, but bonus checks are usually discretionary. Unless there’s something in the offer letter that defines this as a deferred payment (ie, ‘you’ll be paid $10/hr + a bonus of $3 per room’), they can choose not to pay it. And even if it is a deferred payment, it may take time / $$ to get them to pay it, through the labor board or small claims court.

            I recommend going with shorter notice period. If they tend to treat employees badly, this is one of the main ways it will bounce back on them. And you won’t be the only person doing it, they may not even remember when it’s time for references.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              This – I too would just take my check (if it comes next week) and give the one week notice. They should have dispersed the payment on time.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Have you been transparent with the new job about what the hold up is? It might be worthwhile to tell them that you’re delaying notice because you don’t want to jeopardize your bonus payout. At a minimum, it gives them some context, and in an ideal dream scenario, they may offer you the same amount as a signing bonus so you can begin to move forward.

      1. Spills*

        Yes, I have! The problem is that my current job has told me that my check was coming two fridays ago, and then again today, and then this morning we found out they need to push it again to next Friday. The new job has been super understanding, but I think the situation is getting a bit ridiculous at this point. It’s totally the incompetence of my current job but I don’t want it to reflect poorly on me. Luckily I have a recruiter and just asked for her advice on what to do, so waiting for her to get back to me, but I will absolutely choose the new job over the check if I can’t make both work.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Good luck! I walked away from a $2k bonus when I took a new job last year – getting out was worth it, and waiting for the check would have meant pushing back my start date by over a month (3 weeks to get paid out + 2 weeks notice), which I don’t think my new employer would have been ok with. In retrospect, there was really no harm in asking if the new company could match or at least soften the blow, but I didn’t think of it until after I started.

          Old company did, however, pay out several months of sales incentive that I had earned, even though they came long after I had left. I second the people recommending to talk to a lawyer about whether the company has to pay this out or not. No harm in getting that ball rolling in case the check is delayed again.

    5. I edit everything*

      If the job was soul-crushing, will it be a problem to burn the bridge?
      If the checks come during your notice, wouldn’t you still get yours, since you’ll still be an employee? Or could you recruit your boss to help? Give your boss two weeks, out of courtesy, and they file the paperwork or whatever after the checks come?

      1. Spills*

        True! I don’t feel like I owe my boss anything but don’t want to leave the rest of my team in a bad place as I really have enjoyed working with them. My boss is the one who likely would not pay my check out in my notice period so she will definitely not be a help there. She’s likely to be super upset anyway when I give my notice, and I unfortunately do t have anything in writing to protect me/indicate that my bonus needs to be paid even if I’ve given notice.

        1. I edit everything*

          Ah. Well, I think I’d start wrapping things up on the QT, documenting, and doing the typical things you’d do during your notice, if you can work it into your day, to help out your colleagues. Then just give a week’s notice to your boss. It’s not typical for companies to be able to replace an employee within a two-week notice period anyway, so just making sure you’re leaving things organized and tidy will be good, and for work-function purposes, practically the same as 2-weeks notice. If you see what I mean.

          1. Spills*

            Totally makes sense! Luckily it’s an unexpectedly slow time for us so hopefully I will be able to leave them in a good enough place

            1. Flyleaf*

              Given their behavior with the bonus check, you wouldn’t be out of line giving little or no notice. They are acting unprofessionally, and that can have repercussions. Hold off on giving notice until you get your bonus check, and limit the notice time to (2 weeks from today – date bonus is paid). If that’s less than two weeks, it’s on them.

              1. Diahann Carroll*

                It almost makes me wonder if they suspected Spills was leaving and decided to drag this out to spite her.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      You earned the bonus based on Q4 then it is your money. I wouldn’t assume that they will withhold it because you are leaving 3 months later unless there is something writing that indicates otherwise. Normally, if you are employed to the end of the bonus period (Q4), then you get your bonus. And $7K is a sueable amount, so I’d bring it up with HR after you put in your notice to make sure they understand that you are expecting that check. Frankly, it is so far into payroll at this point that it would be difficult to stop the payment.

      1. Spills*

        Nothing in writing but I did speak with one trusted senior colleague who said that they would not pay it out if I had given notice. Of course that’s just based on her experience, as I don’t think either of us have anything in writing but it seems like a very big risk to take. I will definitely look into contacting a lawyer to see what they recommend, but you are correct that the amount is confirmed and approved, and we are just waiting for corporate to mail the check in the next check run next Friday.

        1. Sunflower*

          We all get bonuses at my company and the general consensus around giving notice/if you’ll get the check are shaky. There is tons of discussion about it and everyone has different opinion. I doubt they will stop the check once it mails though so you’re probably OK once you know the check has been cut to say Bye.

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          Check your state’s DOL wage and hour division website. They should have guidance on what constitutes a previously earned commission that is owed vs. another form of bonus payment that may not be enforced by the state. Spend some of your down time at work looking high and low for documentation on the bonus/commission payment (what it is, how it’s calculated, etc from a handbook, emails, etc.). The goal would be to have enough information from work and the state’s DOL website to feel relatively secure about making a wage claim for the bonus if it doesn’t materialize next week. I wouldn’t push back your new job any further and I wouldn’t feel bad about giving shorter notice to your old job. If the information you get (or a lawyer provides) is promising, you can fight for your bonus money while you’re at your new job instead of risking your job offer by waiting for the bonus money in perpetuity.

        3. Michelle*

          I would check with a lawyer. If it’s commission/incentive it sounds earned rather than discretionary and in my state (depending on specifics) it would be perceived as owed if earned. But I’m in a state that leans that way on a lot of things. Notice is a courtesy and $7K would be enough in my book to shorten it. I feel like you’re in this position because the employer has the power here, so it seems justified that you would exercise whatever control you’re able to have over the situation.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        Normally, if you are employed to the end of the bonus period (Q4), then you get your bonus.

        My last company rewrote their bonus policy (ironically a few days before I turned in my notice) to read that regardless of whether you were employed until the end of a quarter, if you voluntarily left the company prior to the bonus being issued, the company was not obligated to pay your bonus out. Basically, you had to still be employed with the company by the time they went to cut the check, which was in the next quarter, to receive payout. It didn’t affect me because the day I gave my two weeks, the bonus check cleared my bank, lol. Had they still been in the process of cutting me the check the day I resigned, they wouldn’t have paid me a dime.

    7. Sunflower*

      Definitely explain this to your new employer. While it may not be common in your exact situation, it’s extremely common in other industries and I think they will be understanding- 7k is a lot of money that a lot of people don’t want to walk away from. You might need to be willing to give your new employer a firm date though.

      It’s definitely worth asking. In the grand scheme of work, one week is nothing and not worth losing a great hire over. Some people are short sighted and don’t agree with that but it’s definitely worth checking with the new job. Good luck! I do in-house event planning and hope you enjoy it.

      1. Spills*

        Thank you! I’ve spoken with the new employer and they are aware – the issue is we’ve already discussed and pushed my start back a week, and now I need to ask them to do that again, all thanks to my current employers incompetence. I think it’ll all work out but just frustrating as I want to get started.

        Also, Hello to a fellow planner! I used to be in-house, came over to the hotel side, and can’t wait to get back to the other side.

    8. Moth*

      In response to the question of if giving one week’s notice is sufficient here, like some other commenters, it’s probably not ideal, but I think you have enough justification for it. Like the response to another letter today, if you approach it apologetically and recognizing that it’s maybe putting them in a difficult place, I think that’s the best you can do. Your hotel may be different than the one I worked in, but there, it wasn’t unusual to have people just give notice that they were quitting effective that day. Not because it was a bad place to work, but because most of those positions were fairly entry level and there was just a lot of turnover to other jobs that were a step higher. Yes, it would probably be putting your coworkers in a difficult position for a week or two while they get someone else hired and trained, but in my personal opinion, the burden on them is not so great that it would outweigh you giving one week notice to protect your bonus and the other job. Just my opinion though!

    9. moql*

      Any buisness that is messing around and delaying your comensation loses the right to 2 weeks notice. Feel free to wait until your very last day to quit if that it what it takes. Explain and apologize to your coworkers and let them know you know this puts them in a bad spot, but they will understand.

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      The problem here which the other comments didn’t address is this: your bonus check has been delayed for two weeks (presumably you don’t know the real reason why?), and now they’re delayed another week, so you are wondering if you can give 1 week’s notice instead of the usual 2.

      BUT – how sure are you, really, that you will get that check in another week’s time? Isn’t it more likely or at least a significant risk that there will be yet another delay due to ‘something or other’? What would you do then? Delay it again (new job has been “understanding” so I presume you have spoken to them about the bonus delay issue)? How long would they accept that? Are you setting yourself up for a first impression as someone who’s only in it for the money?

      If the new job is perfect/amazing/better hours/more pay how long would it take you to “make back” that $7k especially as it’s actually less than that due to tax?

      In your position I would consider just moving on now, and see if there’s any procedural/legal basis to pursue the $7k later.

      1. Tabby*

        Set your start and give notice after the check.

        If they delay Another week?

        schedule vacation the Monday after? Then quit.

        But at some point you need to put new job over this check. I know it will hurt :(

    11. Koala dreams*

      Congratulations on your new job!

      I think the suggestion to consult a lawyer is a good one, but I also agree with the commenter above me that it’s time to consider if these 7k really exist. Right now you feel that you have to choose between giving notice and the 7k, but it is possible that you actually are choosing between getting nothing (waiting for money that never materializes) and getting your regular paycheck from the new job (giving notice and starting the new job before they get tired of waiting for you). (You might want to look up the sunk cost fallacy.)

      You know that the company have refused to pay out bonuses in the past, you know they have delayed for two weeks already. For all you know, your current employer might not even have the money to pay you.

      As for burning the bridge, I think the company have already burned the bridged from their side when they decided to not pay you the money they owe you. You giving a notice period is for your own sake, and if it repairs the bridge, it’s a nice extra. In your shoes, I wouldn’t count on it.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        I walked away from a bonus at an old job… annual bonus was over three months overdue and there was no sign of it coming at any set point in time. It wasn’t as much as yours but it was in the thousands. I left it there because my pay at my new company was more than an offset for the loss, and I was really just ready to move on.

        Although now I wish I’d shortened my notice period in the hopes that it’d show up over the following two weeks! It wasn’t a great place to work.

    12. pcake*

      I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t play one on TV, but I don’t think companies in the U.S. – are you in the U.S.? – are required to pay you bonuses. You’ve been told by a trusted colleague that they may not give you a bonus if you’ve given notice, and I’ve seen other companies pull that one.

      I’d pass on the bonus and start work at the new company. You may be passing on that bonus, but they may have no intention of paying it to you. Add to that how late they are with everyone’s bonuses, and I find myself wondering if your old company is in financial trouble. And if the new company is a better working environment and pays more, seems like it’s past time to move on. I see others feel differently, so keep in mind that’s only what I think.

      Best of luck, however you play it!

    13. Spills*

      Not sure if anyone will still see this but I have an update! I have been working with a third party recruiter and she spoke with my new HR team today and they said they are fine to push it one more week and they totally understand.

      I feel confident that the check will come this Friday as the previous two weeks it was more hush-hush speculation but today we have heard from both our sales director and our finance director but if not, I’m prepared to walk away after this week. Not sure what the hold-up is – we were acquired by another company almost a year ago, bur all other quarterly commission checks have come on time since then.

      Although it feels like they are doing this on purpose to spite me, I don’t think they have any idea and it’s just another symptom of the dysfunction of this place. Either way, at the end of this week I will be done and on my way to better things! If for some reason the check doesn’t come I will definitely consider a lawyer but it seems like things are lining up to work out. Thanks to everyone who provided advice!

    14. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      While it’s usually advisable to give two week’s notice, I think that if you absolutely have to, wait for the check and then give one week’s notice. Acknowledge that it would be ideal to give two week’s notice but that it just isn’t possible in this case. Be apologetic, but also stand your ground. You can’t risk not getting that bonus check and you also don’t want to risk your new job.

  14. Undercover Bagel*

    I have a question that I’m hoping people might be able to help out with. I’m in my late 20s and was just diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. How do you handle dealing with a diagnosis like this at work, especially one where you will likely be managing symptoms for the rest of your life?

    I still have about a week before I start treatment, so also advice on how to work when you feel like a sack of potatoes would be much appreciated.

    Thanks guys.

    1. Kathenus*

      I was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis in my early/mid 20’s so I get it. I don’t know details of your situation/condition, but except for the one acute joint issue where it all started that affected me at work until I was diagnosed and got it under control, there was no real issue related to work – and I was in a very physical job at the time. So I’m not sure what part of dealing with it you are concerned about related to work. To be honest, the biggest short-term thing I dealt with was peoples’ surprise at my age and an arthritis diagnosis, although it was a normal onset age for my particular disease.

      And it may take some time to find the right treatment, but I’ve been managing this for over 30 years and the medications these days are so much better overall that I think you’ll get to where this is an annoyance and not a life-defining condition. Again I don’t know your exact situation, so speaking more to how it did/didn’t affect my life or work. Best of luck.

      1. MCTD in the Hizouse*

        I was diagnosed with Mixed Connective Tissue Disease (it’s like Rheumatoid Arthritis, lupus and Sjrogen’s had an underachieving baby) a year ago and now that I have effective treatment, I don’t really have many problems anymore. I do get more colds, and I get sicker when I get one, but that’s about it.

        1. MCTD in the Hizouse*

          Also, look into a vertical mouse. It took a little getting used to, but it’s so much easier on my wrist/shoulder.

    2. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

      Hi there, Undercover. I’ve got some recent experience with this, so will weigh in. A work peer of mine recently disclosed an RA diagnosis and we’re all figuring out how best to support her as she figures out how best to manage her treatment. So far, these things seem to have worked:
      –She disclosed the diagnosis to her manager, and then to her team. She didn’t go into a ton of details, but she let us know in general terms how it might affect our workflow (might need to be out at short notice, etc.)
      –She proactively set up a realistic fallback plan for her duties, which frankly is becoming a company-wide model. The plan involves shared docs and SOPs as well as clear communication with all parties that Bob will handle X and Cyndi will handle Y if she’s out. Buy-in from department heads was crucial. We can activate this plan with 0 minutes notice and thanks to the clear communication, I can honestly say (as “Bob”) that it has neither slowed down our work nor been an undue burden.
      –I don’t know any of the details of her arrangements with HR (i.e. if she’s explored intermittent FMLA or has a flex schedule for the foreseeable future, etc.), but based on all the department heads’ buy-in of the fallback plan, as well as our CEO’s acknowledgment and support of it, I’ve gotta think she was similarly organized and proactive on the HR side of things.

      So from my limited experience, I’d say planning and communication are your greatest tools for adjusting your working life in light of the diagnosis. But all of that is predicated on employers who will be supportive. If you suspect your employer will NOT be supportive, 1) I’m really sorry; ’cause that is just not what you need right now, and 2) you’ll want to do a bunch of research about your rights before you disclose anything.

      I’m sure the path to diagnosis was not a picnic. I’m cheering for you.

    3. You Can Do It!*

      I was 32 when I was diagnosed with RA so welcome to the not so great club! I talked to my boss who happened to be the HR Manager and she was so supportive. I got an ergonomic keyboard, mouse, and footstool and those items have helped a lot. I take mulitple little breaks throughout the day. When the brain fog kicked in, I started writing EVERYTHING down. I have notebooks everywhere. She is the only one I’ve told but if anyone asks why I’m tired or not moving as fast I just say, “Oh, didn’t sleep so well last night!” and people don’t push further. Being open and honest with your boss and HR in what you need will go a long way. RA is considered a disability under the ADA so if you have to, get a doctor’s note.

      It’s different for everyone, but when I started MTX and Humira, I took them on Fridays and slept literally all of Saturday and most of Friday. I did that until the symptoms went into remission and went off the MTX and went just to Humira. I still sleep most of Saturday, but my husband doesn’t mind! Most important in all this, you have to listen to your body. If it needs sleep, you sleep. If you did too much one day, it will show up the next day and possibly next days. Unfortunately with this disease, it changes every aspect of your life. If you have the sick time and/or PTO you can use it for days when you feel off, and there will be days when you just can’t make it out of bed.

    4. JimmyJab*

      I was diagnosed with lupus in my early 20s and type 1 diabetes in my mid-30s (las year) so I totally get where you’re at. I’m lucky that my job is pretty laid back about butts in seats as long as you get your work done, so that made a huge difference for me. Also, this may sound counterintuitive, but there are a lot of similarities between lupus and RA and in my experience, getting up and walking around whenever you feel achey or tired helps a ton. If you have a good relationship with any managers you work with I’d also tell them you’re dealing with a new health issue and it’s going to take time for you to adjust to that at work. Good luck, I feel for you and you’re not alone.

    5. Hedgehug*

      No advice to give, but I wish you all the very best in your treatment and that you have a good medical care team to support you.

    6. CheeryO*

      I was tentatively diagnosed with RA at 27 (my rheumatologist isn’t convinced that it’s not something else, but whatever it is, it presents similarly to RA). I have not disclosed to anyone at work because honestly, my good days are enough to get by in my slow government job.

      Like You Can Do It!, I write EVERYTHING down and use Outlook rules and reminders extensively. Anything you can do to dummy-proof your day-to-day stuff for brain fog days, do it. I became known as someone who can answer any question, maybe not immediately, but after a few minutes of ruffling through my files, because I take notes on everything and organize them meticulously.

      Otherwise, just focus on your self-care. For me, that’s getting outside for a walk at lunch, keeping very active outside of work (thank you, 37.5 hour workweeks), and eating well and staying hydrated. Meal prepping my breakfasts (overnight oats) and lunches (healthy bowls with a grain, protein, and veggies, usually) helps a ton. I also aim for nine hours of sleep per night, but again, I know that’s not feasible for everyone. I am also lucky enough to have very good sick leave on top of generous vacation and personal time, so I rarely have to dip below my personal “red line” that really triggers bad flares.

      So I guess my advice is to get a slow government job with good benefits? Easier said than done, I know, but those jobs do exist if you end up overwhelmed in a demanding job.

    7. Spero*

      I was diagnosed with RA at 21 so nearly all of my work experience is post diagnosis. I have usually disclosed to my manager after about a week on the job – something like, “by the way I have a type of arthritis that means sometimes I’m creaky and moving a little slowly in the mornings, and I have difficulty lifting heavy objects with this hand. I don’t see it impacting my job duties as I’ve learned them so far, but there may be random one off situations like moving furniture to a new office that I’m just not able to do.” When I had flare ups (for me, mostly post-pregnancy) I have let her know that I’m seeing some impacts but have adopted {obsessive journaling of tasks} {additional planner} {scheduling more regular check ins} to deal with it and they have been successful so far. I have also sometimes mentioned a few months in that my RA means regular medical appointments are a priority, but staying on top of it in the moment has helped me avoid any later issues. More than half of my employers have said something like ‘Oh I forgot you had that’ or ‘good for you’ at that point and it’s never been an issue.
      I did however raise hell with my HR when our insurance switched specialty pharmacies and screwed up my meds (the words “it’s unethical to accept a contract you’re unable to fulfill when patient health is at stake” were thrown) and apparently that got back to my boss as a ‘wow she was a little scary’ moment.
      It’s now been 14 years and honestly, with good management and meds there are periods of years at a time where it has little to no impact on me for most days of the week. At other periods it’s an everyday concern and I know every minute that I have it, but those are thankfully short and infrequent. It’s never been as a bad as when I was first diagnosed and other than the pregnancy complications it brought about it’s not as big of an issue as I initially expected.

    8. Anongineer*

      I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia and some other fun stuff in my early twenties – here to cosign a lot of the other advice.

      Whenever flare ups occur, I make sure I do more self care in terms of care. Walking and stretching throughout the day help, as well as a discreet heating pad when I need it.

      Eating better – limiting foods that cause inflammation (not sure if this applies to arthritis) and just bettering my overall health.

      Lastly, yes to writing everything down whenever brain fog or fatigue hits. There are (sadly many) days where I can’t sleep due to pain or anxiety or whatever else, so I write down my tasks and what I’ve accomplished, and who asked me for what when. I also document any design decision with a ton of documentation to back it up. This helps whenever people ask why something was done a certain way and I flat out can’t remember that I’ve ever worked on the project. But I have a notebook per project to make it as easy as possible too!

    9. Fikly*

      So, first, it’s ok to grieve the notion of your healthy self.

      Second, the trickiest part, I find, with a new long-term problem, is that I don’t have enough experience with it yet to know how it will affect me. I find it helpful to have different plans in place for severity of symptoms. I would also suggest checking out JAN – they are great for ideas for accommodations, because you have to have an idea of what to ask for to get them.

      Finally, +1 to everyone who has suggested writing everything down. I have short-term memory problems and lots of brain fog on top of that, and I write everything down (my personal dm in Slack is great for this) and it’s the only way I know what I’m doing. I will start a list each day at work with what I need to get done, and I add things to it as I go. Then I use yesterday’s list as a starting place for the next one.

    10. TypeFun*

      Hi, I don’t have RA but I was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes at 24 (a few years ago now) and I think the most challenging thing was just dealing with people’s misconceptions about your permanent illness. Yes I’ll have this forever, no I can eat sweets and sometimes I really need to, no it’s not caused by my diet, etc). I imaging being young with RA, you might come across similar things. What I’ve learned is to assume people are speaking in good faith and to try to not take their inquiries or statements personally. Also it’s really great to have other friends with the same or similar diseases. My friends with type 1 have been essential when things get hard or just to commiserate with. I also second the advice that it’s totally normal to have a period where you grieve the loss of your “healthy” status.

    11. Reba*

      I agree with all the comments here so far! I had juvenile RA, was diagnosed at 23, still got it at 34! I am very lucky in that my disease is well controlled with the old, cheap drugs. I hope that you quickly find treatment that works for you.

      I also definitely went through a period of anger-grief-petulance as I learned to deal with the “forever” nature of being chronically ill. Like, procrastinating with meds or bloodwork cause I just didn’t wanna. I’m in a better and more responsible place now, lol.

      Lots of people don’t know about my illness, but I’m open about it if it comes up. I used to wear those little compression gloves or just wrap my fingers with stretchy bandage sometimes, so it would be asked about sometimes. I would advice that you practice not just deflecting but also changing the subject if you don’t want to talk about it. Like “Oh, I have rheumatoid arthritis, so sometimes I _____. Can you tell me more about ____?”

      One thing I notice about myself is that disruption of sleep = pain. So this affects how I plan work travel as well as personal, i.e. recovery days when I can. I also have pretty abundant sick time, and I sure as hell use it, for appointments and sometimes just to rest. I have a boss who is completely chill about this, fortunately.

      I don’t require many accommodations, but little comfort things help me a lot. I like a standing desk (so I can change positions frequently) and occasional space heater usage, fingerless gloves, etc.. These are, of course, things that lots of folks without illness use, so not a major imposition.

    12. Undercover Bagel*

      Hey I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who gave some advice; it was all super helpful! I really haven’t had a good idea of what to expect/how to manage things yet so hearing what others have experienced has helped put things into perspective for me.

      I’ve definitely been struggling a lot with the brain fog, so I will be putting some of the strategies to good use! For me it’s like as soon as I have to work more than 8 hours it takes almost a week to recover. Thanks again and I hope everyone has a good weekend!

  15. Youth*

    With the end of February fast approaching, I’m constantly thinking about that silly Leap Year birthday letter.

    I’m happy that poor employee gets a day off for her birthday this year!

    1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      I was thinking about her, too! I hope the 29th falling on a Saturday doesn’t mean she’s still out of luck.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        If I remember correctly, the letter writer actually addressed this and employees get the working day closest to their actual birthday.
        Still hope the employee has left that nest of bees though.

        1. All Hail Queen Sally*

          But I believe that was only for the employees who had a birthday that fell on a Saturday or Sunday, not the lone employee who only had a birthday once every four years!

          1. CupcakeCounter*

            Yes, but I think Punk Ass Book Jockey was addressing the fact that the Feb 29th is a Saturday and whether or not that would once again cause her to lose out on the benefit.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        I was weirded out about the whole “everything is fine, she is unreasonable” tone as well. Everyone else gets an additional paid day off 3 years out of 4.

      1. Salty Caramel*

        The letter writer said she’d get a day off in 2020.

        I am still utterly stunned that Leap Day is the unreasonable one in that letter.

  16. Goldfinch*

    My company is spoiled rotten in that they get away with paying everyone in my department way below market rate. There are several lifers motivated by a (now closed) generous pension system, one person stranded in this struggling town due to a sickly parent, and me, who was hired off a four-year stretch of unemployment. Our newest temp started last year because she was sick of her two-hour commute to NYC.

    Recently, the company offered her FTE, and seeing this situation go down has been GLORIOUS, y’all. She’s not at a disadvantage like the rest of us are, she knows her value from working in multiple metro AND non-metro areas, she is accustomed to good benefits, and she is refusing to swallow what they’re shoveling. My company endlessly insists that the vacation is generous and the salary is awesome, when in reality nothing they offer is even close to competitive. She has countered multiple times and finally outright refused their unacceptable offer, and they are SPUN.

    In twenty years of working, I have never seen someone stay a perma-temp of their own volition. I am just in awe of this lady’s poise and backbone.

    1. Miss May*

      One of the managers at my company just told me today that two weeks of starting vacation was GENEROUS. I could hardly stop myself from rolling my eyes.

      1. Potato Girl*

        Yeah I worked at a place like that. When I pointed out that it’s quite low, I was told, “Well we don’t /have/ to give you /anything/. We give it to attract and retain good employees.”

      2. Goldfinch*

        Yup, 10 days PTO and 5 days sick are the new employee package, but managers have discretion on sick use and some start to write you up for as few as 3 days used.

        My own manager uses PTO for sick days unless she has a doctor’s note.

        1. MB*

          Yeah, I tried to negotiate for a third week of PTO at my new job and got rebuffed; fortunately, I get 7 sick days instead of the 5 I have now and I will reach that third week in 3 years (I’m returning to an old job so I am getting credited for the 2 years I spent there).

          But yeah–I hate how generally miserly the USA is regarding free time.

      3. Narvo Flieboppen*

        So, here’s a story of a fun job interview with a small family-owned business. Very long.

        TL;DR – small family business are cray cray. Some more than others.

        I show up and learn a few things off the bat: They have office horses (I didn’t realize the office is also on their family ranch) and also office dogs. So far, so good, though I was a bit judgemental of the hazardous chemical storage units being attached to the barn. Like, if there is a leak your horses could be hurt. Or die! Won’t someone think about the horsies!

        Going inside, the office space is grungy and doesn’t appear to have been updated since they opened. In 1965. Quite a few of the dings, scrapes, etc. have been patched with duct tape. But, this is a small office running a chemical supply business where the products are delivered to customer properties, so no one outside the company sets foot in this space. Also, mostly only family and doggies. So okay.

        We begin with the basics of the two owners (husband Patrick & wife Petunia) and I introducing ourselves and discussing the basic job duties vs. my experience. They’re excited that in addition to my accounting skills, I know how computers work because they currently outsource everything, including installing Windows updates. They’re paying someone to come in and press the ‘Update and shut down’ when it shows up. This is not a good sign, IMO.

        But I continue. Having discussed that I can handle data entry, numbers, and Excel, they show me my private office. Which has a doggie door installed because one of the dogs has adopted it as her space and I will have to share. The office also has a large corkboard covered in photos, articles, and string. It seems they haven’t taken it down yet, but Calvin, the former accountant, was working on a theory that the JFK assassination was plotted by Al-Queada and worked on it during his lunches. All of this is said with straight faces. They are not Anna Kendrick, so I highly suspect they are not just being humorous. Further inquiries about the vacancy indicate the reason the former accountant left is that he is currently in a mental health facility. They are replacing him because he doesn’t know when/if he will be released and so they have to move on, as a business. Well, true, and possibly kudos for supporting those with mental illness. Also, mild concern that they don’t seem to consider his conspiracy theory wall IN THE OFFICE to be an actual workspace problem. On the bright side, my cute animals calendar would be a serious upgrade.

        We discuss their accounting system and the data entry details. I have concerns coming up because ‘the field techs don’t really know what they’re installing, but Calvin always knew which parts went with which job so he would correctly bill each client in they system. It is expected that I will learn which parts, supplies, & chemicals apply to every single potential job and will bill accordingly regardless of the notes submitted by the field techs. I posited perhaps a training regimen for both myself and the field techs, so that they submit the correct documentation normally and I also know what to expect, but corrections would be the exception, not the norm. Petunia, while gesturing to the corkboard o’ lunacy specifies “Calvin was just so much smarter than the techs, and we look for that in this role, because field staff aren’t too bright. You’ll just have to learn and fix their mistakes.” Oh, look, I think someone might ice fishing over there, a red flag just sprang up into the air!

        I continue, just in case there may be some good to offset this warning. A few other things I learn about their business model: The accountant must listen in to all phone calls taken by other staff and remember if that person has done the appropriate follow up. If not, you have to remind them to do so. Especially Patrick, because he is bad at follow up and the accountant is the safety net.

        Petunia and Patrick frequently row in the office. During those times, the accountant will be the intermediary because they will not speak to each other, despite sitting 8 feet apart. No, the accountant will have to leave his office, pick up a note from one to the other, deliver it, wait for the responding note, etc. Petunia laughs and says “You’re married, you know how it is!” Strangely, I cannot relate.

        Also, someone in the distance seems to have caught an entire school of fish. Look at those red flags waving over there! HA HA HA! At this point, I’m not taking the job, but hell, let’s go down this rabbit hole to see what’s at the bottom:

        Their data backups are done to CD ROM. Daily. The up to date CD is hung on a nail next to the door frame. If there is a fire, take the CD with you on your way out. Cloud services are too expensive and anyone could hack your data there, so no internet backups!

        They have never, not once, actually created an annual budget. They have never planned cash flow. They have never, not once in 55 years, reconciled the company bank account. But it’s okay because “there’s always money it when we write checks”. Oh, and don’t answer any questions if the IRS calls. They’re auditing the ranch (not the chemical business!) and Petunia’s personal accounts (not the chemical business!) have all been frozen. But the chemical business is just fine and the IRS is nosy, so just hang up if they call. Oh! The red flag over there is so big, I assume someone has hooked either a blue whale or a nuclear submarine.

        On the topic of benefits: You can get free insurance through the government, so we don’t offer health insurance. Besides, only sick people need insurance and we expect employees to stay healthy. The “extremely generous” PTO package includes 2 paid holidays (Thanksgiving and Christmas), 1 week of vacation, and in your second year of employment 2 days of sick time. That’s all the PTO you ever get, by the way. Did I mention they have a hard time filling open field positions? It’s because the tech people are so stupid and lazy that good help is hard to find.

        There was just no way I was taking a job here, but they wrapped up the interview with an actual job offer: A $5K decrease in pay from where I am and, because they like me and I’m so impressive, the full PTO suite of 1 week vacation and 2 sick days in my first year. Sadly, even though there was no lake nearby and there is no ice here anyway, I still had to go check my ice fishing rig rather than accept the job on the spot. At a glance, it appears I have to release a kraken from my line.

        I did receive a follow up email asking what they could do in the future to hire and retain qualified professionals such as myself. I offered my feedback. They were not impressed and I now know it is because I am selfish, greedy, and fail to appreciate the challenges faced by small business owners. Yup, that must be it.

        3. Elizabeth West*

          I’m dying.

          I’ve heard that “good help is hard to find” thing before from stingy-ass employers: “Oh we can’t find anyone who wants to work.” No, you can’t find anyone who wants to work for YOU.

          1. Narvo Flieboppen*

            If I can’t share crazy job interview stories with the AAM commentariat, with whom can I share?

            Actually, I’d love to tell some of my coworkers, but then I would have to out my job search which would not be conducive to continued employment here.

        5. Gig-less Data Analyst*

          “Their data backups are done to CD ROM. Daily. The up to date CD is hung on a nail next to the door frame. If there is a fire, take the CD with you on your way out.”

          I don’t know how you kept a straight face. I would have died.

        9. Anongineer*

          Oh god I wish you had been able to live stream this or something. This officially makes it into my interview horror story favorites!

        10. ampersand*

          You would have to PASS NOTES BACK AND FORTH TO THE OWNERS BECAUSE THEY’RE TOO IMMATURE TO TALK TO EACH OTHER?!

          Somehow that is the part that struck me as the most insane. Yes, everything else is crazy, and okay maybe they’re truly terribly bad at running a business, that’s not for everyone, and also they’re being audited by the IRS, it happens I guess when you’re bad at business-ing, but on top of all that, NOTE PASSING?

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            This joke may be relevant:

            Husband and wife are fighting. They’ve stopped talking to each other and are communicating entirely in notes. Neither one is willing to speak first. Husband has an idea! He’ll force his wife to be the one to break the silence: he needs to catch an early flight tomorrow, so he leaves her a note: “Please wake me up at 5:30 tomorrow.”

            He awakens, birds chirp, the sun beams, it is not 5:30 in the morning. How could his ingenious plan have failed, he asks himself? As he sits up, he sees a note on the pillow: “It’s time to wake up, dear.”

        13. Red Fraggle*

          This is so wretched and astounding and delicious that I can’t stop laughing. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing! Definitely save this for Allison’s next Horrible Story Roundup.

        14. Bilateralrope*

          It occurs to me that pretending to be the IRS might be a way to get at information I shouldn’t have. So I’m not sure if I’d give them anything until they prove who they are. I’m not sure how.

        15. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I feel like these people, including their former accountant were huffing those chemicals

          o.o

    2. Notfunny.*

      I am so encouraged that you can cheer her on and appreciate her advocacy! Not everyone who has to stay in an environment like this could see this as positive.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      > stay a perma-temp of their own volition
      I don’t think she will be staying as a perma-temp for long – voluntarily or otherwise. I’d bet dollars to donuts she’ll be out of there at the earliest opportunity (contracts permitting) either at the company’s behest or hers.

  17. notinstafamous*

    Any tips on negotiating a bad bonus? I exceeded all of the targets (hard and soft) this past year by at least 30% but got a bonus commensurate with just meeting them. I’m a bit worried it’s linked to my maternity leave in some way. Industry is one where an annual bonus is a standard part of the compensation package. I assume I bring it up in my upcoming performance review but how should it be framed? How do I approach the conversation without sounding whiny/entitled?

    1. Emilitron*

      I’d go with the “can you explain” structure – as in: I thought I had a pretty good understanding of how our bonuses were calculated and how that relates to our measurable targets and performance metrics, but I’m realizing I must be missing some of the details, can you explain that system to me?

      2. RecoveringSWO*

        Take notes of their response as well! If they keep up the maternity penalty or other gender disparities, you or another coworker may appreciate the documentation later on…

    2. Steve*

      I would be tempted to phrase it as “If I want to get a better bonus this upcoming year then how do I do things differently?”
      I did this many years ago (“I appreciate all your positive feedback on this year’s performance review. What gaps do I need to work on in order to get a bigger bonus next year?”) and the response was immediately positive (“Expect a new version of your performance review by the end of today”). I was lucky to get such quick and positive feedback, yet I think it would work for any situation. I wasn’t trying to openly disagree with them, and made it sound like all I wanted to do was be a better employee, but when I wrote it there was a lot of “I think you are wrong!” (although I was very careful to write it in positive language, and I had a colleague read it over just to ensure it sounded okay – he thought it was a great tactic)

    3. Laura*

      I wouldn’t mention the maternity leave as a reason. It probably is, but you want THEM to say it. Just bring up that you exceeded all hard and soft targets by at least 30%, however, your annual bonus was commiserate with you only just meeting your targets. Then ask, can you tell me why this was my bonus? Then shut up and wait through the awkwardness.

    4. 867-5309*

      It would be entirely appropriate to say something like, “I out-performed my targets for the year by 30% and was expecting the bonus to be X. The current bonus amount is closer to what is received when just meeting targets. Is there a reason it wasn’t higher?”

      Focus on your work.

  18. MOAS*

    I did something I’m not proud of — I was frustrated with a peer over something (well many some things). they did the 1 yhing and I plainly said “stop doing that.” I tt was gratifying but then I felt terrible later. I realize I’m on edge with her because there are so many bigger issues at play than just her. 

    The “many things” include her claiming she’s never there so she gets out of doing work.. passing assignments on to us even when her boss told HER to do them, me having to do her work. Her boss knows all this but does nothing and boss’s boss loves my coworker. I see nothing improving on this end. 

    1. Melissa*

      Unless you yelled at her, I think it’s fine. When bosses refuse to manage a favorite, these things happen.

      1. MOAS*

        Even though I’m a peer?

        I was venting to my SIL and she brought up Radical Candor — not sure if it was in teh book or her own advice, but help her be a better manager — even if it’s not my job it’ll help her and help me in the long run.

        It sounds good in theory but I’m not sure how well it’d work in practice.

    3. RagingADHD*

      What do you think you did that you should be less than proud of?

      “Stop doing that” is normal, clear, direct communication. Unless you made a nasty tone or yelled, it’s not even rude.

      1. MOAS*

        So….I know this is going to sound silly but you know how sometimes something over text/email sounds stern but in person, they are very friendly? I have the opposite–I can convey warmth over messages, but I admittedly struggle with it in person.

        I have a very….uh…rough? voice. and I often sound angry or whiny, even when I’m not. I don’t have a soft or nice feminine voice. I have RBF and the voice equivalent of it which I can’t seem to shake, no matter how nice I keep my tone. Majority of people around me get me and , but this person is very soft spoken and “sweet”. (I’m not like this with my reports, I’m comfortable being direct and clear with them, it’s just this person and similar.)

        1. RagingADHD*

          Well, if she kept doing the thing after multiple “soft” requests not to, then she either needs to wake up and pay attention, or quit playing “sweet” to get away with bullshit.

          She can brace up and take normal adult pushback like anyone else. If she makes a habit of annoying and exasperating people, then they will get fed up.

          We’re all supposed to learn that by like, second grade.

            1. MOAS*

              Ah. After today’s meeting I suddenly feel NOT bad about it.

              Bosses do spot checks of our work since we are still a new department.

              She did a years worth of a client’s bookkeeping with PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNTS AND CC. That is 1000% against our company rules and I’m pretty sure against Bookkeeping/Accounting 101. We have a process in place that if a client has business expenses paid out of a personal account, how to record it — connecting the bank account is explicitly against our rules.

              Her boss wanted to brush it off and let it go but my boss kept digging in and asking why and providing solutions. She kept arguing back with everyone.

              SHES A MANAGER.

              The worst/best thing about it? My boss and 3 of my peers see that this is BS. They know 10000% for a fact that if I made that mistake, I’d be out the freaking door and my VP would obliterate me. Meanwhile, VP loves her and the other boss wanted to bypass it.

              I don’t feel bad anymore.

              *table flipping gif*

    4. Odd Duck*

      If it makes you feel better, I ended up telling (loud, firm, “mom’s mad” kind of voice) a coworker that I was going to pop him if he didn’t stop. Background with the coworker is a male (him)/female (me) dynamic and I don’t like being touched. It became a “game” to him to insist on hugs, high fives where it turned into him holding my hand, and random touching. I got to the point that I ducked and ran every time I saw him coming in my direction. That day, it crossed from where I could barely tolerate to a straight up mad. He’d had ample warnings from me and others. After a couple of business days, I sat him down and told him it has to stop or my next step was talking to HR and calling it harassment. To this day, contact is a fist bump where he waits for me to make contact and doesn’t push further. — Yours was better!

    5. Arts Akimbo*

      I don’t think you did the least little thing wrong. You were just asserting a boundary! Don’t feel badly for that.

      Also, she sucks. “I wasn’t there, so…” as an excuse for everything, when she so very clearly *was* there, would drive anyone up the wall.

  19. Throwaway*

    Are there any jobs or lines of work where it’s easier to stay out of politics and leadership drama?

    My work is sort of a blend of business analyst & project management, with a side helping of change management.

    Obviously these areas end up digging up and working through political stuff. In some ways I can handle it and in others I find myself getting exhausted by it all. It’s hard for me not to bring it home and ruminate on it. I’m currently in an organization that has a lot of drama and I’ve seen pretty clearly over the last year that it’s probably not going to change dramatically in the next 5-10 years.

    Is there a way to work more in the BA world without engaging in all the political stuff? Or to work more as an individual consultant/advisor without having to own all the organizational dynamics? The more individual, reflective, research-y aspects of the work, I really love. But encountering conflict after conflict drains me and I feel I expend a lot of project energy on tailoring things to not ruffle feathers in the hopes that recommendations will be adopted.

    PM is something that I do because I have to, but I wouldn’t want that to be my career. So I also don’t want to detach and become someone who is more about task-oriented PM.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      oh my gosh, are you me?

      like this is literally putting into words the big questions in my head. I work in healthcare in a role that sounds incredibly similar and the politics (read: drama) of my org are literally sucking the life from me. I have no real advice because I haven’t solved this problem either but i can relate on all the levels.

      One thing I’m looking into as I think of moving on is consulting, where you can come in, solve the problem, and then leave the organizational drama to the people who hired you. In my mind, at least the people hiring consultants want the help – i don’t feel like some of my internal customers want my help anyway.

      1. Throwaway*

        Yeah, it’s that internal customers don’t actually always want the help they really need that can make things tough.

    2. JessicaTate*

      The upside of being a consultant is that you don’t have to deal with any one organization’s dysfunction and drama all the time. It doesn’t rule your work-life. That being said, you still have to deal with the organization’s dysfunction to a degree because they are your clients and that’s who you have to negotiate with on your scope of work. It depends on the nature of the dysfunction, politics, and drama. If it’s like internal politicking and back-biting around status, etc. Less of a big deal. If it’s the type that is connected to your work — say, a CEO who really wants your research to show what she believes or who has unreasonable ideas about what can be accomplished — you have to navigate it diplomatically (or decide to not take their money).

      You’ll maybe get more of the individual work time that you like, but you’ll still have to deal with some of companies’ political BS as your clients, just a variety of clients with their unique quirks.

      1. Throwaway*

        I’m wondering if ultimately being some kind of consultant would be a better fit. I’m not sure that’s where I am in my career but even for a time it might help me feel I can recharge my batteries a little.

        1. RecoveringSWO*

          Just be wary of work-life balance for consulting in general. But if you like travel and think the change of duties would recharge your batteries, I’d research heavily which consulting firms you apply to and go for it.

          1. JessicaTate*

            This. I definitely don’t think of consulting as a “recharging” career direction; work-life balance and travel is consistently a challenge in the consulting life. I love lots about it, but it can be exhausting – whether working for yourself or a firm.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      While I think that there is inherently always going to be some level of politics in a job I’ve found that outside sales is relatively politics free. If you produce, you thrive, if you don’t you’re gone. Sure, sometimes weaker team members who can play the game maybe get a little more runway but ultimately I’ve always worked in places where it’s produce or get clipped and that has suited me just fine.

      The quickest way to remove work drama is to become self-employed but that isn’t a realistic scenario for everyone.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Those options just substitute other drama for internal politics…

        But Change Management is drama central. Anything other than actual politics will have less political maneuvering. My experience is that harder number fields (accounting, data analyst) and IT have less than average.

          1. Throwaway*

            Yeah, that’s the thing. I love analyst positions but typically you end up having to help people understand what the numbers really mean (and DON’T mean) and sometimes that leads to landmines or obstruction.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              It’s still less than Change Management, where you’re going in knowing that you are the scapegoat for large groups of people.

    4. Stormy Weather*

      Have you considered a BA certification and letting your boss know? Something like, “The more I do the work, the more I find myself enjoying aspects X, Y, and Z. Do you think I could grow into a role that focuses on these skills either in this department or at a higher level?’

      1. Throwaway*

        Yeah, I’m working on it. That kind of thing has been tough in my current wider team for a lot of weird reasons, and there’s not always a lot of follow through, or sometimes there’s weird reversals that aren’t clearly communicated. But I’m at a point in my current role where those kinds of discussions make sense, so I’m trying to express that more clearly and get some more definitive responses. For some reason my wider team really struggles with progression and shifting roles.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Sorry, I don’t have any suggestions for fields that are less ‘political’ but can I suggest a “frame challenge” way to work in the BA world but be less involved in ‘politics’ in the meantime: view yourself as a sort of ‘internal consultant’ (in the way that companies often get a consultant from outside) who has more of an objective view, isn’t really invested in the politics and so on, but gets in, gets the job/task done and then gets out. Present things diplomatically but straightforwardly (rather than “tailoring things to not ruffle feathers” which sounds quite circumspect).

      Explore internally to yourself, what it is that you find draining about “conflict after conflict”. For example is it the interpersonal dynamics that you find draining? Trying to keep everyone happy? Having to find solutions to stuff all the time (rather than a ‘people’ conflict focus)? Is it one conflict after another, or is it actually one problem after another caused by other people (e.g. poor planning / no foresight by senior management). Expand on this as you see fit (or not!)

      How much is just due to the specific company (“I’m currently in an organization that has a lot of drama”) rather than due to the nature of BA/PM work in general? Yes, there is always politics, but is it an option to look outside your company in a similar role?

      BA covers a wide range of skills and industries (as I’m sure you know!) so whatever you are doing now, I expect it could be ‘transferable’ to somewhere else quite easily.

      I’ve said on here in last week’s thread that a good BA is worth their weight in gold!

  20. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    In this community based social work job, they have tried to impose office hours ( i.e. we have to be in the office from 9 to 2). Out of ten employees, only 3 are in the office right now. I guess you can’t impose work from the office on a work from home culture from the top….

    1. hello everyone*

      It’s hard because in community based social work so much of the work is at night or on the weekends (and so many community meetings are during the day), but then they want someone physically present during the day… when are they supposed to use the comp time they supposedly have? Well…

    2. Never Been There Never Done That*

      In the community based social work job I have the social workers are out of the office about 70% of the time doing what they are supposed to do. They come in once or twice a day to do paperwork or attend meetings held in the office. There HAS to be a measure of trust (or willingness to look the other way) that the staff aren’t out shopping or having a two hour lunch. That’s just the way it is. You can try to impose and have lots of good reasons for doing so but………..good luck with that.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        The kids just have too many emergencies. I had to be out of the office cuz a kid was showing some suicidal ideation ( he’s fine, but I needed to check on him)

    3. Koala dreams*

      I think many clients would be happy to have their social worker having regular office hours, but 5 hours a day sounds a lot to me. Don’t people in social work have a lot of visits, meetings and such to do?

  21. bowlsbowlsbowls*

    Question for folks to weigh in – am I on a power trip about disposable bowls?

    Background: I’m in charge of stocking the supply room and breakroom for our office. It’s come to my attention that people are using our disposable bowls and plates for their daily breakfasts and lunches…and we keep running out of them. I have them in a cupboard, and so I won’t notice we’re out until it’s time for an event and…”YIKES where are the bowls?! We had a hundred stacked in here two weeks ago!”

    I consider the disposable stuff meant for office parties and events…and while we’d have the budget to accommodate ordering more for this new consumption trend…I don’t really WANT to. It seems like a complete waste of money. We have lots of real dishes and bowls…we have a dishwasher…which I load and unload for everyone!

    I want to hide the bowls away, but that seems…petty? Should I just send out an email letting folks know they’re for events only? (…and reminding them that we’re trying to comply with company-wide conservation efforts? We’ve already gotten rid of single-use plastic bottles this year). Or should I let this go…and just order more bowls?

    1. LessNosy*

      Our HR group keeps all event-related disposable dishes in their locked cabinet for this very reason… it’s a real problem if you need them for events and that event rolls around, and suddenly there are none!

      Would it be possible to replace the single-use bowls with some fairly inexpensive ceramic ones? That’s what our office did. They got about 8 bowls and plates and advised people that they were available for office use like the office-use mugs and must also be cleaned when finished, like the office-use mugs.

      I acknowledge it’s possible they could grow legs and walk away (ours didn’t but… I guess YMMV by office?) but maybe that’s a good happy medium since you say you have the budget to accommodate ordering more AND there is a conservation effort?

      1. bowlsbowlsbowls*

        Yep we already have lots of ceramic bowls! And a dishwasher to clean them. So people are choosing to use the single-use ones… :(

          1. valentine*

            Order more bowls. Don’t save the company money it doesn’t want to save. You’re overly invested and this isn’t worth the energy of locking up the bowls, which is where this is going, or being seen as weirdly rigid about them.

            Your coworkers are peacefully using bowls and disposing of them in a proper manner (or you’d have noticed before the next event). There are no piles of dirty dishes or fights about dish rack/-washer etiquette. You are an order form away from peace in our time. Embrace it like the life preserver it is.

            1. MCTD in the Hizouse*

              That’s what my company decided about 15 years ago. Disposable bowls, plates and cups reduced the arguments over cleaning dishes to 0, and peace is important in the workplace.

            2. Curmudgeon in California*

              My workplace orders disposable dishware that is compostable, and we have a special bin for that. Sure, they also have a dishwasher and encourage people to use reusables, but most people either use the compostables or wash their own dishes from home.

      2. Uncannycanuck*

        Definitely put them somewhere that people can’t use them up. It’s fine; there are real bowls and they’re just being lazy. Don’t even mention it, just do it and let them figure it out.

        2. Never Been There Never Done That*

          ITA. You can send out emails until the end of time but if people have access to convenience they are gonna use it. If it were me I would put the disposable bowls out of their reach. Staff are just taking the easy way out and who can blame them? That said, since you are taking care of the dishwasher they can use the ceramic dishes and shut the hell up.

      3. kittymommy*

        If disposable bowls/plates are in our breakroom cupboards they’re for our use for meals and that’s been the case everywhere I’ve worked. Anything meant for a particular purpose or event is kept in a separate area, typically in the office of the organizer but sometimes still in the breakroom but maybe in a crate or something.

        1. New Job So Much Better*

          Agree. If they are in the breakroom/kitchen employees will use them for meals. You will have to lock up /hide a certain portion.

    2. Michelle*

      I would let people know that the disposables are events-only and they should use the regular bowls for breakfast/lunch. If that doesn’t solve it, then hide them. I’m a long time admin and I’ve had to do this before.

      1. snoopythedog*

        This.

        Be transparent about it. Send out an email: due to lack of disposable bowls required for event hosting, we have moved the disposable kitchen wear to a separate location. Please feel free to continue to use the ceramic bowls provided in the kitchen for your daily use.

        Frame like it ‘of course you all use the ceramic bowls for daily use’

        1. Shirls*

          I agree with this; this is how my husband’s office handled a full switch away from single-use plates/bowls/flatware/drinking vessels a few years back. People bitched like crazy for the first few weeks, grumbled for the first few months, but eventually they adapted.

    3. CTT*

      Oh my gosh, yes, hide them or otherwise clearly mark that they are reserved for events. That’s not petty at all. People probably don’t realize that’s what they’re for (or they thought that, but then saw people eating out of them and thought they could use them too, and so in)

    4. Bernice Clifton*

      I have been the Office Supply Person at many jobs and this is the way that I dealt with people using supplies that aren’t for everyday use or hoarding supplies.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      Lock them up. You could put a sign, but people seem likely to ignore it and say to themselves I just need it this once.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      The fact that you find you’re out of bowls when you need them means this isn’t you being petty, it’s you being responsible for resources that others are wasting. So yeah, hide them or lock them up and send a friendly email saying “please use the reusable bowls, the disposable ones are for events only.”

      1. Observer*

        Why not lock away the ones for events, but stock for everyone’s use. If you really don’t have the budget that’s one thing, but if you do, it really does make sense.

    7. Observer*

      Yes, order more bowls. And be glad you don’t have to deal with kitchen drama.

      You can remind people about the ceramic bowls, but don’t push it on people.

        1. Observer*

          It can be a major inconvenience, especially in workplaces where people don’t have much (or any) place to store their stuff. The more “open” the office is, the less space they are likely to have.

    8. Heidi*

      Eh, I say hide the bowls. As long as they’re there, people will take them, and then you won’t have them when you need them. They have the reusable bowls there, so it’s not like you’re depriving them of anything. If you ask them to stop using the bowls, they might do it. Or they might not, and then it escalates into yet another thing you don’t want to deal with.

    9. Not A Manager*

      Don’t bother with the email. Hide the disposables or lock them up. If people ask about them, be pretty bland. “Oh, those are just for corporate events.”

    11. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I would hide but not lock up the disposables, and label them “events crockery” or similar so you’re focusing on what they’re intended for rather than what they’re made of.

      Then, in the kitchen, is there a way to make it obvious that the ceramic bowls are for general use? Could the relevant cupboard or shelf be labelled “everyday crockery”?

      I don’t think it’s remotely petty to say “this is for this purpose, and this is for this purpose”. I just think it might be helpful to rename the things so their purpose is front and centre.

    12. Dust Bunny*

      Don’t restock them. Buy them when you have an event coming up and keep them in your own space, or somewhere else secure, until the event has passed.

      My workplace keeps a small stack of thrift-store dishes and the single-use stuff goes untouched for YEARS because we all know it’s absurd to use a new paper bowl every time you eat something. I even bring my own dishes because I like them; the office ones are fine, though.

    13. Hapax Legomenon*

      If you have enough lead time on events, can you only order bowls for events? Having to lock up the bowls seems like something you don’t want to do because of the micromanagement of supplies. If not, then just lock the bowls up and be done with it. Some people will always use them if they’re “free” and it’s not a battle worth fighting.

    14. rayray*

      At places I’ve worked, they supplied disposable dishes and cutlery for employee use. Maybe these people just assume the disposable dishes and cutlery are for their use. Honestly, they probably aren’t even thinking about it causing you distress at all. Maybe just encourage people to use the real dishes. Unless it’s really eating away your budget, it probably isn’t worth it to store them somewhere else.

      Definitely just send an email reminder or put up a note in the break room. I bet people would be fine to use the real dishes. And if a stray disposable bowl gets used here or there….just let it go.

    15. Mia 52*

      I mean if you’re literally doing their dishes for them and they cna’t be bothered to use a regular bowl or plate you should just hide them. That’s a new and extremely low level of wasteful. Jeez.

    17. NJBi*

      This is the kind of thing that annoys the crap out of me, like watching my coworkers use paper cups for coffee every day when we have OUR OWN BRANDED MUGS right there next to the coffee maker!

      Perhaps you could try taking the disposable bowls and plates and storing them somewhere out of the kitchen–a separate office supply cabinet, your desk, whatever. Not so much hiding them, but making the ceramic bowls MUCH, MUCH more convenient. No need to email about it. If someone comes to you, you can individually let them know that actually, in line with the company-wide conservation efforts, it would be better to use the ceramic bowls, and really the single-use stuff is just in the office for events, so you’ve moved it.

    18. Stormy Weather*

      I’d hide them as well. If there is something in a common area, then you can’t prevent people from using them. I would spin it as an environmental concern.

      And they are damn lucky to have ceramic tableware and someone to wrangle the diswasher.

    19. CheeryO*

      If the company-wide conservation efforts are the real deal and not just talk, then yes, absolutely hide the disposable stuff, send the email, and remind everyone not to be wasteful. I work in a 100+ person office where everyone is issued a regular plate when they start (yes, we’re weird), and we simply don’t stock disposables. We have a larger dish collection that we use for events (again, probably weird). It’s not an issue! Sometimes we get pizza delivered and they’ll bring disposable plates, and they go untouched because everyone brings their own. It just needs to become a habit for people.

    20. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Try the email / sign / discussion with people — it’s likely that most people don’t know that that’s the intent — it doesn’t sound like it’s obvious, from the outside.

      Check on them more often (if you don’t know what’s in the supply room until it’s time for an event and then ‘whoops’! — sounds like you aren’t on top of those particular supplies!)

      Meanwhile keep a “secret stash” of disposables somewhere in a locked cabinet (maybe you don’t need a huge number? as it sounds like “a hundred stacked in here two weeks ago” would have been more than enough for an event) Use these for an event ’emergency’ if the others are still disappearing. Repeat for each event (sounds like you know in advance when those will be).

      If it continues and people are unresponsive after a few requests you may need to revert to keeping them in the ‘secret stash’.

      (But if the secret stash is in an obscure place please do make sure your potential backups know where it is in case of unexpectedly winning the lottery or whatever)

      We got rid of single use plastic bottles in my own place a couple of years ago and people grumbled for a couple of days but accepted it pretty quickly.

      I find people can adapt to most things if it’s presented with a sensible rationale and not just “because I said so”.

    21. pcake*

      You say that you consider “the disposable stuff meant for office parties and events” – you don’t mention how the company feels about this. Maybe they’re fine with employees using the bowls. Have you found out?

    22. Kat in VA*

      We had this problem with bottled water. Even though bottled water was for meetings and customers only, employees would keep taking it.

      (More annoying – finding 1/4 to 1/2 finished water bottles all over the place. If you’re going to snake one on the sly, can you at least finish it?

      We got filtered water stations in every kitchen (fizzy water! cold! hot! ambient temp!) and people STILL waited until the receptionist was busy and snagged the bottled water.

      Now, the bottled water resides in a locked cabinet because people can’t be arsed to fill up a freakin’ Contigo when they go to their desks. Maddening.

  22. Show Me Potato Salad*

    I tried this a few weeks ago, but didn’t get any hits. I thought I’d try on more time!
    Does anyone in the privacy field have any experience on the usefulness of getting the CIPP/US certification? I’m currently at a tech company but in the legal department working on negotiations of contracts. I would love to get out of the negotiation arena, and it looks like privacy/risk may be a good area to look into. I don’t have specific experience other than what normally comes up in the course of negotiating technology contracts. For example, I have a general understanding of HIPAA, PCI-DSS, GDPR, etc. but very high level. Would getting the CIPP/US help my job prospects at all? Would something else be more useful?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I think it would depend a lot on the industry and the jobs you’re looking in. My experience is that the certification isn’t necessary – I’ve seen a few jobs where it was listed as a preferred qualification, but never one where it’s required. And certainly in my field (provincial/ municipal government, in Canada), employers are usually more interested in your experience and accomplishments, than in the specific letters after your name.

      But there are obviously lots of people who have it and who do find it useful, so YMMV! Do you have an idea of what specific jobs you want? Have you looked at any job ads to see if they require the cert?

  23. Anonymous Educator*

    I know age discrimination is technically illegal in many places, but we all know it still happens (just difficult to prove in a court of law most of the time).

    For those of you who are older and have faced age discrimination in hiring, how old were you when you first experienced it? What happened?

    1. irene adler*

      50.
      (1)
      Recruiter insisted I had exactly what their client was looking for (QC supervisor). So early on during the phone interview with the client, I was asked if I had experience in auditing. Well, there was nothing listed about auditing in the rather detailed job description. I pointed this out to the client. He insisted that auditing was crucial to the job.
      I recounted that my skills and experience matched the job description. That made no difference. Auditing is essential to the job.
      So we ended the interview.
      I contacted the recruiter after the interview per their request. Told him that he’d messed up- the job required auditing. He told me that was not true. I recounted the interview. He was miffed.
      Later, I get a voice mail message from the recruiter. Yep, auditing experience required.

      (2) Contacted by email. The email said that the manager was very interested in the skills/experience in my resume. He had a few questions before we set up the on-site interview. They were: When did I graduate from college? What are the exact dates of employment at the jobs I listed?
      So I gave them these dates.
      Crickets.

      (3)Initial phone screen. I recounted how I met the job description in all ways except my skills in Excel are a little rusty. I’m told by the HR interviewer that that is fine. She was so pleased to have found someone who met the job description.
      I have three more interviews. One of these involved a test-which I passed. At these interviews the hiring manager picked apart my resume. She demanded to know when I graduated from college. Then she wanted to know why I completed some additional certifications (in QA and Regulatory Affairs). She then kept asking me why I wanted to work in QC. Why not work in Regulatory Affairs? Why not work in QA? I explained that I liked QC work and felt having an understanding of Regulatory Affairs and QA only improved my understanding of how QC work should be completed.
      The result: rejected. I lack computer experience and knowledge of microbiologic (sic).

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          Rusty, I see the evidence of age discrimination in #1, but that’s because I’ve been there. When irene adler said that she was told that auditing was essential to the job, even though it wasn’t mentioned in the job description, I knew right away what she was talking about. Because when I was 56, I went on a number of job interviews where everything went great, until the interviewer mentioned a job requirement that was not mentioned in their ad, nor was it mentioned in the resume that I had sent in.

          Whenever I said that that requirement was not mentioned in their ad, I was always told, “Oh, I’m quite sure it was!” Then I would ask why I was called for an interview, since my resume didn’t say anything about my having the qualification they claimed was absolutely necessary. I was always told, “Someone else made the calls. I don’t know why they called you.” Of course, the person who called me was never in that day, so they couldn’t be asked “Why did you call Millie for an interview, when she lacks this extremely important qualification?”

          I always saved the help wanted ads I responded to, and I would check them afterwards, and none of them said anything about the extremely important qualification. I just figured that when they saw me, they decided they didn’t want to hire someone my age, so they pulled this very important and necessary qualification for the job out of their a$$ just to make me think that they didn’t want me for some reason other than my age.

          BTW none of the companies ever called me afterwards to apologize for having taken another look at their ad and seeing that they did not mention this all-important qualification after all.

          I was hired at another company about six weeks before I turned 40. A few months later, the office manager told me that she had a mental cut-off age of 40 for new hires. I mentioned that I was almost 40 when I was hired. She said that she knew it, and she said that if I had already turned 40, she wouldn’t have hired me. And she said that if I ever told anyone that she said it, she would deny it.

            1. irene adler*

              Yeah you are right, they didn’t see me.

              But they viewed my LinkedIn profile. I saw a notification. On there you have to put start dates for jobs. And I’ve been at my current job for over 20 years.

              1. Rusty Shackelford*

                Ah, okay. I wonder why they even bothered to interview you, if they’d already discovered you were an Ancient One?

                1. irene adler*

                  I think the recruiter pushed.
                  And maybe they suddenly realized that QC supervisor requires auditing experience. It happens. Although QA folks are the ones usually tasked with auditing.
                  I do hold multiple certifications in auditing (from BSI and ASQ). But can’t do much auditing at my current job because I’m already in everybody’s work. No independence from the job function.

                  Forgot:
                  (4) One recruiter actually sang songs to me and asked me to identify the artists. Yep, songs from the 1970’s. And yes, I knew them. After he’d finished, he politely explained that he’d move my application along to the hiring manager. Then, I received the rejection notice.

                  Can’t believe much of anything HR folks tell you.

                2. Just Another Manic Millie*

                  They probably interviewed her for the same reason that a financial services company called me for three interviews and then sent me a letter stating that they did not want to hire me because I didn’t have experience in the field (although having experience in the field was not mentioned in their ad, and the subject never came up during my three interviews). I was 34 at the time, so no age discrimination, I guess.

                  To this day, I’m still convinced that some interviewers get their jollies from having what they call unsuitable applicants come in for interviews just so that they can burst their bubbles.

          2. pally*

            And yet, older or younger than 40, you would have been the same employee.
            Sheesh! This gets me soooo aggravated!
            There’s no such thing as HR police, and there’s really nothing one can do to combat this mindset. Don’t know why they even bothered with a law. Can’t prove discrimination.

          3. Minimax*

            Im 32 and have ran into #1 a half dozen times at least. Especially when working with recruiters. Id chalk that one up to not knowing what they want. A highly detailed job description is also a red flag in my experience.

      2. Windchime*

        The only reason I stopped coloring my hair was because I’m pretty sure I’m in the job I want to retire from. It’s gone almost completely salt-and-pepper and I really like the way it looks, but if I had to go job searching I would probably color it again. Sad but true.

    3. Close Bracket*

      49 (and I’ve been told I look younger).

      It’s not hiring, but at my current employer, there is clear favoritism shown to young people. Unprofessional behavior is excused bc people are young, and young people are given preference in good assignments. This isn’t something I am reading in–people are explicit about youth being a reason behind their decisions. People who started here as young people and stayed here 20/30 years seem to be doing ok. The difference is between me, who started here at age 48, and all the people who are fresh out of school or just a year or two out of school.

      I’m handling it by advocating for myself and looking for a new job.

      1. Close Bracket*

        You know what, I said the discrimination wasn’t in hiring, but it *is* in hiring. As I asked for advice on below, I got a comparable offer to people (ahem, men) with way less experience (and yes, for those of you who think experience doesn’t drive salary, it absolutely does).

      2. StellaBella*

        Same here. I am 50. In Sept we hired a lot of people all under 30 but one. She is 55. She quit after her 12 weeks probation and I have had my contract not renewed after this past year.

        Now the team of 20 is all under 35-36 but the big boss, he is 48 and director, she is 45.

        I look much younger than 50, and sadly in the tech start up field a lot of the diversity talk is just talk when it comes to gender, age, colour, etc.

    4. Lora*

      It wasn’t in hiring, it was actually after I was hired and they had a re-org. I was 42. Had just been hired in a startup and about four months in they had a re-org. New manager, who was supposed to be at my same level, kept making noises about getting younger people hired in so they could get a fresh new perspective on…whatever…I later found out our mutual boss had instructed him to do this on account of the more experienced people were pushing back, working around and generally ignoring his stupider (and illegal) ideas.

      First they let go of an analytical chemist in her late 40s who had been vocal about the state of the quality assurance testing. Then her replacement, who was in her 50s, was also tossed out. Then a chemical engineer in her late 40s. Then me. All within a span of a few months, and I pointed out the pattern to the HR lady who told me that the EC was aware it was a problem and a legal risk this department was causing, so here is your generous severance check but please speak to a lawyer also. After me, one of my friends who had literally just turned 40 was transferred to a much less desirable location & position. A process chemist in her 40s who had had nothing but stellar reviews suddenly got a new boss who said she was the worst process chemist on earth and he had to fire her for being too stupid to work here (his words). A CMC project manager in his 40s was let go. A supply chain manager in his 50s who was a real expert at scheduling and throughput was pushed out. The HR lady who gave me the bad “we’re not firing you, we’re just um mutually um separating um…” speech, who was in her early 50s was replaced with an actual lawyer.

      Not-coincidentally, in a company of 600+ employees, they had only two black employees and very few Asians. It’s rare in my field to have less than 20-25% Asian employees. I mean, you could certainly make the argument that Big Boss just didn’t like people talking back at him, and the people who mostly felt confident and self-assured enough in their professional career to manage up are going to be the people with a lot of experience to know better, but these were all seasoned professionals who knew how to present themselves politely and we all got along fine with each other.

      1. irene adler*

        Dang, guess that explains why no one will hire me after years of looking.
        This is sooo depressing!

      2. Close Bracket*

        When I was laid off many years ago, all the people who were laid off got a piece of paper with the job titles and ages (and some other stuff that did not include names) of everyone in the layoff. I was told that this was to prove that the layoff did not discriminate against older people. I bet you all could have collectively sued, but I don’t know what that would have gained you.

    5. Curmudgeon in California*

      One place I worked suddenly started doing quarterly performance reviews and stack ranking. Curiously, it was the older people, minorities and non-fem women who got less than “meets expectations”. The they did this thing where if you had two “bad” QPRs you were fired.

      Curiously, they wanted people to sign an agreement that said you couldn’t talk about it, that you hadn’t been discriminated against or retaliated against, and that you couldn’t complain to the EEOC or sue, just to get severance. I couldn’t in good conscience sign a thing that was patently untrue, and I didn’t get severance. I found a new job before the deadline to sign.

      I hope that I gave some of those jackasses a lot of sleepless nights, because I tick the box of several “protected” categories: over 40, AFAB, Queer in a SSM, and visibly disabled. I’m also a member of a non-Christian religion, but that never came up at work.

      I was 51 at the time, and many others who were ‘fired’ for ‘performance’ were over 50. IMO, it was a shady dodge to get around the WARN act.

      Then again, this was the company whose new CEO suddenly decided that there would be no more remote work, and all remote people had to either commute in to the office they were based out of, or quit.

      They later got sold.

    6. always a nurse*

      Late 40’s….. years and years of hands on bedside nursing experience, current in all relevant certifications, graduate level education… started getting told by supervisors with less experience and less education that I needed to contact them when I had questions about patient care, instead of talking to the MD to clarify issues. (Never had any trouble with the MD’s, they were always willing to listen to my concerns, because I had worked longer with them than the supervisors…) Then stuff would start about how I just didn’t seem like a team player, and perhaps the demands of “today’s nursing” were just too much. (When I’d insist on getting paid OT and union negotiated penalty pay for missed breaks and lunches…. missed because management didn’t staff for coverage.) Eventually replaced by 2 people 3 years out of nursing school, whose pay was less than half of mine. Manager got more “coverage” and still saved money. Were the patients as well cared for? Who knows.

    7. BlondeSpiders*

      I am 47, and just graduated with a bachelor’s degree in Business. I’ve had a relatively non-traditional life and I don’t have kids. I have a first name that skews 15-20 years younger, and I am often told I look mid-30s. In spite of all this, when I was trying to pick between majors (Marketing and Management) I decided to choose the path where my age would be an advantage. (Guess which one!) Even though I’m pretty youthful (I even pledged a fraternity in college) I was worried about blatant age discrimination in the marketing world.

      I eventually decided to go into HR, which is bursting at the seams with middle-aged ladies like myself.

  24. LessNosy*

    Ohh I’ve been waiting for this all week! :)

    I have a second interview on Monday with a company whose job fair I attended a couple of weeks ago. I indicated interest in 4 of their positions (all in the same department, all relevant to my experience) and they are calling me back for my top 2 positions!

    Any advice on how to interview for two positions at once?? I have different questions about each position, but I’m not 100% sure what to expect. Both positions report to the hiring manager I’m interviewing with. Also, I was told that an employee in that department that I REALLY hit it off with both professionally and socially is going to be interviewing me as well (she would be a peer), so I’m actually looking really forward to that!

    I’m trying not to get too excited because it’s still so early in this process and I have no idea of the salary ranges yet or anything. But it would be so great to leave my toxic dumpster fire of a job!

    1. I edit everything*

      A lot of your questions will be relevant to both jobs, since their in the same department: office culture, teamwork/collegiality, etc. Other questions can be phrased in terms of how does X work for this position, or how is a normal day for X different/the same as a normal day for Y?

      You will also likely find that your interviewers direct the conversation themselves to cover each position: “First, let’s focus on X job.” If they regularly hold job fairs and interview people for multiple positions at once, they probably already have a system or routine for managing that.

    2. Hamburke*

      My husband did something similar – 2 teams at the same company. The interview process will really be led by the company. In this case, both teams worked closely so it was simple enough – they both had a couple people in the initial interview, and then broke out into basically 2 afternoon sessions. The feedback he got was that both teams were interested and would be internally talking. Unfortunately, their hiring process was really really long which he knew going into but it went 6 months during which time he accepted another position.

  25. Fishsticks*

    What are good questions to ask to gauge work-life balance in an interview? I asked about the long days and it sounds like when a deadline occurs (which is 1-2 a month) its nonstop with 10-12 hour days the week before but I couldn’t get a feel for how the days were when a deadline isn’t looming. Basically I’m trying to figure out if it’s 8 hours unless theres a deadline or always at least 9+ hours a day.
    I have a 2nd round interview next week so I’m hoping to get more info then.

    1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      Yikes. So right there, it sounds like 25-50% of your life is going to be 10-12 hour days! I’d consider that bad for balance right there.

      I think you can ask pointed questions about the time when there isn’t a deadline looming — what does a normal workday look like, do people generally work early/late, etc.

      1. Joielle*

        Yep, definitely ask pointed questions, and if people are cagey about giving a straight answer… well, that’s the answer right there.

      2. RecoveringSWO*

        Yeah, this is enough of a red flag that I wouldn’t continue. But if it’s not a show-stopper for you, I think you should ask pointed questions that mention comp time. Something like, “You mentioned that it’s all-hands-on-deck for 10-12 hour days during the 1 to 2 weeks a month where there’s a deadline. Is there weekend work involved in that push as well? What does the office look like during non-deadline weeks? Do employees take comp time then or does the office revert back to 8 hour days?” Then, when their non-deadline week answer is “back to regular working hours” without reference to 8 hours specifically or any form of comp time, you can be sure to run away ;)

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Ask them what a slow day looks like versus a long day, and how the team handles coverage when someone has a light emergency (kid needs to be picked up from school early) or real-life emergency (loved one was in an accident).

    3. WellRed*

      So you potentially have two weeks of 10-12 hour days each month? Half of your work month? Every month? I don’t think this is a place that has work life balance.

    4. Giant Squid*

      I think you need to ask specific people in the interview (potential peers) how much vacation they’ve taken, and how many hours their average work week is. I think a lot of times, teams are in denial about their work/life balance. I worked somewhere with the intention of doing 40hr/week except in emergencies…and did that. I didn’t get reprimanded, but it was agony leaving every day an hour before the rest of the team. Everyone insisted it was fine. I ended up getting laid off when they had some pretty big financial issues (thank God).

      Also, “unlimited PTO” I’ve found tends to mean 1-2 weeks, and you’ll be expected to bring your laptop. Everybody that offers unlimited PTO likes to insist that they’re different, but that’s just not the case. To establish work-life balance, you have to actively pressure people to take vacation, and the only reliable way to do that is “use it or lose it”.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        I hope I’ll be forgiven for hijacking this thread, but I have to ask Giant Squid, can you say more about the “unlimited PTO” problem? I was considering shifting to that system at my business, but I’m intrigued that you’ve had bad experiences with this. Can I ask more about why that was?

        1. Giant Squid*

          Whenever I hear “Unlimited PTO” I think “Unknown PTO”. It’s obviously not unlimited–nobody can take 6 months. There’s clearly a range in mind, it’s just that nobody knows it.

          Whenever I’ve worked in a “use it or lose it” place, everybody always took their PTO. Maybe that’s 2 weeks, maybe that’s 4 weeks, but people always take all of their PTO. That ends up creating social pressure to take PTO, and to take it as “unplugged” as possible–there’s an actual number that the company says you’re entitled to, and you don’t want to “waste” it.

          Under an Unknown PTO system, people are going to guess how much PTO they can take, but they’re going to tend to underguess because of risk. If you take too much PTO, it could hurt your performance review, your reputation, make you first in the layoff, etc. People start counting how much PTO their peers take and using it to determine how much PTO they’ll take, but they miscount.

          Maybe Jim only took one vacation because he took an extra long Christmas and Thanksgiving. Maybe Jim wants to use PTO for paternity leave, and is trying to “bank” it. Jim’s peers don’t see that, they just see that Jim is only taking 1, week-long vacation.

          Basically, if you don’t actively make sure people are taking vacations, and make it clear how much vacation you *Expect* people to take, it’s going to go down over time.

            1. Margali*

              My office has unlimited PTO for the upper management folks. Offer letters state they can take PTO as needed, and “most employees take about xx days per year.” (I don’t remember the actual number.) At least that gives something of a guideline.

          2. new kid*

            This. Unlimited PTO means company gets to look ‘progressive’ while actually offering the bare minimum of PTO through cultural pressure + never having to pay out this supposed ‘benefit’ if an employee leaves.

          3. Oh No She Di'int*

            It looks like research is on your side:
            https://www.inc.com/gene-marks/why-unlimited-paid-time-off-is-bad-for-your-employees.html

            TL;DR: “Paid time off is a publicity stunt. Most companies know that their best employees aren’t going to take advantage of it. And by leaving the policy open and ‘up to the employee’ managers are now creating a different kind of competitive environment, one that encourages taking less time off, rather than more.”

            1. RecoveringSWO*

              Yes! Please don’t adopt that system. It doesn’t matter how good your intentions are, they won’t beat out the other pressure employees will eventually face about taking PTO in the unlimited system. My favorite system for encouraging leave is vacation days that become “use or lose” after a certain amount accrues and sick leave that accrues indefinitely.

        2. pamplemousse*

          I work at an unlimited PTO office and really like it (I’m a manager now but wasn’t when I started). If you go that route, a few things that have addressed some of the most common issues for us. Generally “unlimited” time off too often translates into “no time off” because people are uncomfortable about taking it, so we have a lot of practices in place that are meant to encourage people to actually use it.

          -Establishing a norm around how much PTO people should use. On my team, usually less senior people take about 15 days total of PTO, more senior people closer to 20-25 (not counting sick time). Just having a benchmark is very helpful!

          -Managers also get notified if someone on their team isn’t taking time (I’m not sure exactly what the threshold is, but I think it’s something like if you get 6 months into the year without having taken at least 5 days off) so they can encourage them to do so and investigate whether something is stopping them.

          -We have generous leave policies for parental leave, medical/short term disability, and other situations (caring for a sick family member, etc), so no one is using PTO for that. We don’t track sick days unless they’re interfering with performance.

          -We have pretty strong norms that when someone is on vacation they are On Vacation and are to be left alone. I’m not sure how high up the chain this goes, but I’m a middle manager and have never been bothered on vacation. As far as I know, neither has our department head except in true emergencies.

          -Vacations longer than 2 weeks require approval from someone ridiculously high up, although I have seen them be approved.

          The one thing that this doesn’t solve is having vacation paid out. That personally doesn’t matter to me but it’s important to some people, especially if you are switching from banked PTO to unlimited (we have always had unlimited; we’re a relatively new company that got started when it was en vogue).

        3. Curmudgeon in California*

          From what I’ve heard, an “unlimited PTO” policy ends up shorting the workers, because actually taking PTO is discouraged, because the actual “limit” isn’t known, but everyone knows it’s there. Plus, if it’s “unlimited”, a person’s accrual is always zero, so it doesn’t have to be paid out if they leave.

          If you want to encourage/demand that people take time to unplug and refresh, add to “unlimited PTO” the concept of “minimum PTO”, and make sure that everyone takes at least ten days, one of which must be a contiguous week.

        4. Can't Sit Still*

          If you want to offer something similar, unlimited sick time is much better. It’s not any more unlimited than unlimited PTO, but it means you can send people home when they’re sick or they don’t come in sick in the first place. I much prefer defined vacation time and unlimited sick time than vice versa.

          People generally don’t abuse it, but it’s not difficult to manage if someone does. The best place with unlimited sick time had a policy that regular checkups didn’t “count” as sick time, and that included dependent care. So people could freely schedule their (or their family’s) annual check-ups (physical, PAP smear, optometrist, dental cleaning, etc.), and it didn’t count as sick time OR vacation, and it was an expectation that you would, of course, take advantage of it. That created a lot of good will, and, unsurprisingly, kept employees healthier.

        5. Fikly*

          My company does unlimited PTO (plus unlimited sick). The guideline is to aim for 20 days a year (and I’ve actually had my manager talk to me about not taking enough) but more is fine, please don’t take more than a week at once if you have a major deadline coming up, and if possible, request it x number of weeks in advance, where x is the number of days in a row you want off.

          It’s pretty awesome.

  26. PM here*

    I need scripts! Someone from a past business relationship reached out to me with an opportunity- it’s the second time they’ve reached out. I agreed to a conversation but almost right after I got promoted with a decent raise. I’m now thinking I’ll probably be staying at my current position. How do I tell them I’m no longer interested but still be able to preserve the relationship so that I can reach out when I am actually ready to leave?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      “That sounds like a great opportunity! I’m actually quite happy where I am not, but maybe let me know again in a few years if something similar pops up. I hope you’re able to find someone good.”

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      “I wanted to let you know that I was recently promoted, which changes things on my end. I’m happy staying where I am now, but would love to stay in touch down the road.”

    3. irene adler*

      You might also spend the time listening to the opportunity. Then use the scripts others have posted. They’re good.
      Hearing the person out shows that you are taking them seriously. Can be considered a courtesy. And, after you listened, you felt that your best course of action is to remain where you are, for the reasons you cited. This way they know you take them seriously, so down the line they know you’ll do so again.

      (But use judgment here; some people think that if you give them the time, then you are obligated to something. )

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I agree that listening to the opportunity is a good idea, though I diverge on timing: If you’re over 50% sure you’ll stay where you are, I would let your contact know that, i.e. a variation of @Not a Real Giraffe’s script:

        “I wanted to let you know that I was recently promoted, which changes things on my end. I’m happy staying where I am now, but would love to stay in touch. If it makes sense for you, I’d be happy to meet with you to discuss the opportunity and maybe I can suggest some folks to connect you with.”

    4. Close Bracket*

      Just meet with them. They have an opportunity, that doesn’t mean you would get an offer out of it. It’s worth it to preserve and strengthen the relationship.

  27. tgif*

    Thoughts on what to say to someone above me (not directly, not my supervisor) who frames his feedback to our team as us being, “in trouble”? As in, “I have a lot of comments this week, you guys are in trouble…” He’s clearly just making a joke, but I’d like to shut it down…our team is 3 people in their early 20s and then myself (their supervisor) so I don’t want to enable the perpetuation of that idea that they’re still kids in school, etc. I’m thinking something like, “Oh, you mean you have feedback on what we submitted to you, right? It wouldn’t make sense for us to be ‘in trouble’ of course, since we’re at work. Sure, what’s your feedback?”

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I kind of feel like you’re reading too much into this phrase. But maybe there’s more to the story than what you wrote?

      If he’s clearly making a joke as you say and not actually scolding the team or making them wear dunce caps or write “I won’t mix the paperclips again” 1,000 times. I wouldn’t use your script. It sounds rather condescending and heavy handed for what you clearly take as intended. As for the 20-somethings has anyone actually said anything or are you projecting feelings that aren’t there?

      1. Yorick*

        I agree, I’d let it go if he’s making a joke. If your employees seem to take it badly, I might talk to them about it, casually as in “oh, he’s just joking with all that,’ a higher-up having feedback doesn’t mean you’re in any trouble.”

    2. Joielle*

      I might just go into his office and say something like “Hey, I don’t want to make a big deal of this, but sometimes you frame your feedback as the team being ‘in trouble’ and I don’t love that. I know it’s a joke, but we’re all professionals and I just prefer not to frame it like that. Would you mind just calling it ‘feedback’ or ‘comments’ or something?”

      Or even in the moment, with a friendly smile, “Let’s just call it feedback. What do you have for us?” I don’t know that he’ll get the hint though.

      If you approach it in a friendly way it shouldn’t be a big deal! And I totally see why this is irritating, it would rub me the wrong way too.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I agree with addressing it privately – it’s easy to feel embarrassed when you’re called on something you intended to be funny.

    3. Hapax Legomenon*

      If the guy thinks it’s a funny joke, what would happen if you flipped the script or took the joke further? “We kicked butt this week, maybe you’re the one in trouble!” or “Oh no, did you tell the principal about us passing notes in class?” I don’t know if that would backfire on you, but I’m a big fan of pseudo-satire for those scenarios(when I can get away with it). People don’t know how their word choices affect others until it’s turned around on them.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        If I heard something like those in response to a joking comment I made, I’d think you were ok with my joke and encouraging it. They would make me joke more, not less.

    4. whistle*

      This joke would drive me crazy too. “Am I in trouble?” is right up there with “Are you mad at me?” in terms of questions that I don’t want to hear in adult relationships.

      I think your script is fine. Another approach that might work here is the classic “What do you mean by that?”

    5. Emilitron*

      I’ve definitely used the phrase “in trouble” at work but usually it refers to project status not team reprimands – as in “if Vendor lets their timeline slip we’re all in trouble”. I mean, it’s definitely possible for somebody to get in trouble at work in the colloquial sense (eg “did you hear Fergus is in trouble with HR for what he said to Jane”) but it’s a gossip phrasing not something I’d ever expect to hear out of my manager’s mouth.

    6. RagingADHD*

      One option might be to speak privately and say something like,

      “I sense that you may have concerns about giving the team normal feedback, because you always joke around about us being ‘in trouble.’ I want to reassure you that we expect to get feedback as an ordinary part of the process.

      Especially since so many of the team are less experienced, I’m trying to make sure they don’t pick up any skewed expectations about how this process works. It would help me a lot if we could lose this idea of being ‘in trouble.’ I know it’s a joke, but I don’t want my team to internalize that.”

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Is there anyone in another team you are close to, who you could find out whether they also receive the “in trouble” wording from this guy? Is it just your team who get the ‘in trouble’ comments is what I’m getting at (but my feeling is it’s probably more general than just targeted at your team).

      Is this a weekly review meeting of some sort? (you alluded to him saying “I have a lot of comments this week” so it sort of sounds like something that happens weekly where you go through… customer support cases? management feedback? customer reviews? social media comments from people engaging with your company? something else?)

      If your own manager/supervisor is on a similar level to this guy, I’d be inclined to raise my concerns (e.g. as you put it, ‘we’re not “in trouble” since we’re not at school any more, what it actually is is that there’s some issue with the thing we submitted’ etc) to your own manager/supervisor and have them bring this up with that person.

  28. Leavingatabadtime*

    I just gave my 2 weeks’ notice at my job during a particularly busy season. I’ve been there 5 years, in a small department at a small company, and have a close relationship with my boss. Shared personal information, he gave me a large gift when I had a baby, etc. It was really difficult to actually put a job search in motion even given my important considerations for leaving (professional stagnation, better work/life balance at the new job, etc), knowing the situation I’d be leaving my boss/my department in. Everyone is very surprised I’m leaving and the timing puts a lot of strain on my boss. I want to acknowledge that he’s been a wonderful boss/our friendship has meant a lot, and that I realize I’m putting him in a difficult spot. Is it inappropriate to get him some kind of gift when I leave?

    1. Zona the Great*

      Yes I think so. This is business. Doing all you can to wrap up and leave a transition plan will be the best gift you can give.

    2. Amy Sly*

      If not a gift, definitely write him a note. A note saying those things is almost always appreciated more than an accompanying gift.

      1. Kathenus*

        Totally agree – I have a note someone gave me about 10 years ago that is still really special to me about the impact that I had made in her career.

    3. SomebodyElse*

      Would it be possible for you take your boss out to lunch before you leave. It may help transition your relationship from a boss/employee one to a colleague/peer/network one that I’m assuming you’d like to have after you leave.

      It’s also a nice neutral way to show appreciation in a business setting.

  29. Argh!*

    Ughhhh. We have a new hire, I am responsible for training and making sure they follow our procedures and learn the ropes. I emailed yesterday about our file-naming system (email began with “I know this is nit-picky but we have a specific system…”) and was *astonished* when they pushed back saying they don’t agree, they find it easier to do it their way, they would like to have a meeting about it, and on and on. Holy. Eff.

    Who cares that much about a file naming system?

    Who in their right mind picks a fight about this kind of sh*t in their first month on a job?! This person is 24 years old and has 3 years of professional experience.

    They are now saying that when they were hired the boss told them they’d be doing more high-level work, when we explicitly told them it’s mostly administrative.

    I have maaaaaaajor concerns about how this is going to go if this new hire is picking a fight over a file naming system 1 month in. UGH.

    1. Nonprofit Nancy*

      Ugh, I’ve been on the other side of this (so maybe I’m biased) so I’m sympathetic to both sides. I started a new job that I thought was a professional step up, and a coworker – not my boss, but the person training me, who was sort of representing my boss – sent me the most nitpicky emails about the script for my voice mail message, the way we name files, how to store our notebooks, etc – and I almost noped right out there ASAP. She was right though, and I was right that the job was not going to be at all what I’d hoped haha. Hoping your ending is better!!

      1. Argh!*

        Oh god, this is so similar to my situation that I almost thought you were the hire I’m talking about, haha.

        The person who would normally be the trainer and supervisor in my office is on leave, so I’m acting as the proxy. That person is quite meticulous and insistent on consistently doing things her way… when I started and she trained me, I had many many emails of “this email you saved to the file 3 months ago is saved wrong, please fix”. It was hard to let go of my personal annoyance, but I get it now.

        In this situation, my objective is to do the best job possible so that when my colleague returns from leave, she breathes a sigh of relief that I didn’t let the office go to hell in a hand basket. It means I don’t have any REAL power and I’m depending on the new hire being a reasonable person who see that it’s in their best interest to observe and conform for now… which I’m beginning to worry may not be the case.

        I tried so hard to present it as “I know this is nit-picky, it’s not MY thing, I am the messenger” but they got so worked up I was really taken aback.

        1. Nonprofit Nancy*

          I mean, you (and my old coworker) are accurately representing the culture of the organization, so the new hire get to legitimately realize that it may not be a good fit for him, see if there’s wiggle room, realize there’s not and process their inevitable disappointment – it definitely doesn’t mean that you the trainer are doing anything wrong!!

        2. Persy*

          If you also experienced this when you onboarded, it might be worth telling this disgruntled new hire about that! In person might work better than a disclaimer in an email. Maybe accept their ask of a meeting, and then make clear that while you’re sympathetic to where they’re at (sprinkle liberally with your own first month experiences), the office works the way it does for a reason, and while learning the job is not the time to suggest system-altering changes.

        3. Arts Akimbo*

          Honestly? I think you sugarcoated it so much that they felt they had wiggle room to push back on it. It would probably be better to say, “This is how files are named under our system,” just pure matter-of-factly, no room for argument. Don’t try to manage their emotions, just give them the facts of how your office’s system works.

          Also, I wonder if they were the victim of a bait-and-switch job offer. It sucks that they think admin work is beneath them, but if they really were told that they’d be doing different work, I could see why their attitude might be bad. Any way to find out?

    2. NicoleK*

      A new hire was giving me attitude when I tried explaining to her about why a certain process had to be accurate.

      1. Argh!*

        Why?!? Why is that ok? I’m thinking back to all my jobs when I first started and the name of the game was to learn how things are done, observe, be agreeable, get the lay of the land personality-wise, workflow-wise, procedurally, etc. I’m so thrown by the way they’re acting like they can set terms. ONE MONTH IN.

    3. Observer*

      Even if you are doing high level work these kinds of details can really matter. Ask any accountant, data management professional or medical professional for a sample of why.

      Tell your new hire that they need to follow these rules. No, you will not meet with them about it. Don’t get sucked into the whole issue of whether they are supposed to be doing “high level” or “administrative support” work. They still need to follow the rules.

      If they still want to meet in a year, you will consider it.

      1. Argh!*

        Yeah, I didn’t want to pile on seeing how they were taking it so personally at that moment… but I think that part of excelling at this particular job is the ability to observe a file/format/procedure/whatever and be able to follow the style that is already in place. It shows you’re paying attention to detail and are respectful of the existing systems.

        1. Close Bracket*

          part of excelling at this particular job is the ability to observe a file/format/procedure/whatever and be able to follow the style that is already in place.

          Say this, but not the second part. “Respectful of existing systems” is not a good enough reason to follow them. “Everything single thing downstream of this will fall apart bc they use the filenames in the existing format” is a good enough reason to follow the existing systems. Tie the reason to follow the systems to the reason for the systems.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I like to respect existing systems until I know enough about them to have good suggestions. It sounds like this person isn’t waiting to know more about it.

      2. Melissa*

        I agree. Your job is to train them, they need to listen and if they are unhappy with the position, that’s a question for the boss/manager.

      3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Even if you are doing high level work these kinds of details can really matter. Ask any accountant, data management professional or medical professional for a sample of why.

        Data manageement professional here and I totally agree. You and the trainer are following protocols that are common across the field, i.e. consistency across systems, even if it seems nitpicky. Once you start hitting several thousand files/millions of data points to sort through, it suddenly starts to make sense why it’s important.

        It’s up to you whether to meet with NewHire or not (could be charitable of you to meet and explain that this is how the team/organization does things and that’s that). Definitely don’t touch the discussion of their role, since that doesn’t sound like it’s in your court.

        1. Argh!*

          Exactly, we’ve got hundreds of thousands of files saved in this format. It really doesn’t matter if the new hire finds their way preferable or easier to find things later. We ALL need to be able to jump into ANY file and easily navigate.

          1. tangerineRose*

            That’s a great way to put it. Does the person know that you’re not the person who has control over this standard anyway?

          2. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Not everyone generalizes well, and this person may not have their head above water to realize that. Taking a minute to explain why something needs to be done in a specific way can really help smooth it over.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      O.o

      I think I’d shut that down right quick. I’d have replied with “Nope, don’t think we need a meeting on this it’s very straightforward. Please use the naming convention that I’ve indicated going forward and also rename anything you’ve saved with a different name”

      Then I’d give your boss a heads up. Especially if they push back again or don’t do as you’ve asked.

      1. Ama*

        I agree with this — if there’s a possibility they are just not understanding the context (i.e. if they think this is just YOUR preference and not the office standard), you could say “This is not a matter of personal preference, this is the standard for the entire office so we can keep our file organization consistent. It’s not up for discussion.”

        But absolutely mention this to your boss so they can keep an eye on whether this is a pattern going forward.

        1. Argh!*

          Yeah, I have been clear that it’s not my personal preference and there is no room for negotiation at this time. Which why it really shocked me that they dug their heels in. Over a flipping filing system.

          1. Auntie Social*

            “It’s not about personal preference. It’s so someone else can find something in a file when you’re not here. That’s why consistency is so important.”
            We had a new paralegal tell us that our courtroom file index was wrong, was a waste of paper, etc. Why was the client’s income information always under #10 when there might not be 9 other documents in the file yet? Because the lawyers know to look under #10 for financials when they’re in a hurry, and they’re ALWAYS in a hurry. It makes a difference not to have to thumb through a file looking for something, especially with a client and a judge watching. You don’t like the index? I so don’t care—the lawyer likes it.

    5. Not A Manager*

      I wonder if you did them any favors by signaling that you think this is nit-picky, etc. It might have encouraged them to think that it’s optional, or negotiable, or that you don’t like it yourself (do you?).

      In addition to firmly shutting down any attempts to negotiate details, could you plainly explain to them what you explained to us (without the part about personalities)? “Pat, this is the current system and it’s non-negotiable. This isn’t *my* system, I have no authority to change it, and neither do you. My job is to train you using our current best practices, and your job is to implement them.”

      1. Argh!*

        Yeah, that occurred to me afterwards. In that conversation I did say the other things you suggest here, though.

        I tried to circle back today and make sure there’s no animosity… but there is. They told me that my email about our filing system struck a nerve because last week I had given him instructions and pulled rank about something different. They were essentially telling me that they will take issue with my instructions going forward. Which, when you are the most junior person in the office, is simply a fact of life. I wasn’t being a jerk about it but they clearly took it personally.

        I plan to have a meeting with the big boss to get more explicit guidelines on how much power I have in this situation moving forward.

        1. valentine*

          Someone needs to tell them if they don’t have standing to call a meeting and that they have to do what you say. It’ll help you not to soften language. He simply must use the file naming convention.

          (As an obsessive, I hope the system doesn’t unnecessarily omit punctuation, or alphabetize by article or with Mc before Ma.)

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Totally.

            Even if they have a bright idea that would vastly improve the entire system, during training is not the time to push it. There is no way they would know all the reasons why it’s in place just yet. If they were specifically hired to do a process overhaul, they still need time to understand it first.

            1. Auntie Social*

              I remember the temp who overhauled the lawyer’s filing system without being asked, because it wasn’t in alpha order. The lawyer she temped for was a defense attorney so every file started with “The People vs” or “State vs”. “Those files were a mess, but I fixed it!” No, you didn’t, put it back the way you found it. If the system seems odd to you, ASK.

        2. Matilda Jefferies*

          Sorry, what? It struck a nerve because last week you…gave him instructions? Isn’t that your, you know, JOB? Seeing as you’re training him? Dude. Seriously.

          I’m glad you’re taking this up the chain, because this isn’t about file naming conventions. If he’s not willing to take your instructions, that’s a big problem, and it needs to be shut down asap. Good luck, and please keep us posted!

          1. Argh!*

            Yep. He said he was bothered that I was checking up on a “low level, not urgent” task that I assigned him ON HIS FIRST DAY A MONTH AGO. :-|

            The more I consider this predicament, hear input from you all, and have discussed it with my work buddy, I feel assured that I was being reasonable and this new hire may simply not work out. Most of the suggestions here (which are very thoughtful and helpful!) — I already said those things to NewHire and they were not well-received. NewHire is all twisted up over being given instructions, and it’s not a good look.

            1. Observer*

              Do you guys have a probationary period? If so, please talk to whoever is going to make a decision about him ASAP, so they can give him a heads up that he’s not getting out of probation if he doesn’t change his attitude / cut him loose. If you don’t do probation, then please give them a heads up with as much detail as you can so they can figure out the fastest way to either get an attitude change or separation.

              1. Diahann Carroll*

                Agreed – dude has got to go. This is entirely too much drama too soon, and maybe you guys can still reach back out to your also-rans and offer them the position instead.

        3. Fikly*

          Wait, they are complaining that you pulled rank? When you are explicitly in charge of them? WOW.

          This be how jobs work.

      2. CupcakeCounter*

        Yeah – I get the OP was trying not to come down hard or seem too harsh but the email should have been a simple “When reviewing your files I noticed you used naming convention X. We all follow convention A so please rename the files using the proper format.”
        If there is a legitimate business reason OP could through in, even better. For example “The analytics department needs these in a uniform naming format so their data program will pull in the correct file. The program is set to work with our current naming convention so all new files must follow the same format.”

      3. Observer*

        In my experience, reasonable people don’t react that way, though. I’ve found that when I validate that something looks nit-picky but we STILL have to do it that way, people tend to take it better. They may still grumble but they accept they still need to do it.

        The whole conversation here shows a real lack of understanding of hierarchy and office norms. Even in an office that is not strongly hierarchical, this kind of thing is really off the wall.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, no.

      We have a file-naming system here, too. You can disagree with it all day long but you’re still gonna use it if you want this job.

    7. Quinalla*

      Definitely loop in whoever makes sense on this because yeah this is not good. You don’t argue with people about their filing system, asking questions about why or details, sure, but arguing? WTH?

      I find it telling that there argument is that they find it *easier* to do it their way. Seriously, literally no one cares what one employee finds easier when it comes to how something is filed. What matters is if it is easier to find 8 years from now when this employee is likely gone and no one know where the hell any of his files are. Argh!

    8. Well, there's this*

      “I’m sure you have your reasons for not agreeing. Regardless, this is our system, and we are not having a meeting about changing it.”

      Alternately, “That would mean a lot of files would have to be renamed and that would be a big project. Do you want to write a business case for this change in process so the executive team can review it?” I’ll bet your favorite beverage they’ve never written one. And hey, it’s higher-level work.

      I’m not nice when I’m low on sleep.

      1. Argh!*

        We are both white, I’m a woman about ten years older than he is. He’s a man. Social class, I think he comes from a working class family, I consider my upbringing upper/middle class (but I’ve supported myself for 15+ years so it’s not a category I still consider myself to be in).

        I’m trying to flex my gender neutrals for this post haha.

        1. Observer*

          I can see why you would. But I’m willing to bet that his background, and more so the fact that you are a woman and he’s a man is playing into this.

  30. Count Boochie Flagrante*

    Folks who work over 40 hours a week on the regular — how do you find ways to manage it? This tax season is really killing me energy-wise. I’m working ~45-50 hours a week (compared with 43-45 last year), and will be until late April; it’s only February and I’m exhausted. I get home at 6:30 or 7pm and have no energy for my hobbies, just stare blankly at a book or the internet until bedtime. How do I make a life out of this until it’s over?

    1. Zona the Great*

      By treating yourself as much as you can afford and justify. Grocery delivery, indulging in television more than usual, sleeping in, forgiving yourself for not doing the dishes. I’m sorry Count!

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        Agree, spend whatever money you need to make it easier on yourself (hopefully you are being compensated more for this work; if not you should be) and plan a really exciting, really chill vacation for yourself as soon as the slower period is supposed to be – something easy, like book a resort and plane tickets, since you probably don’t have the energy to plan anything elaborate right now. Ignore any internal or external messages that “it’s not a good time, you need to catch up on Y and Z thing, maybe later” – you need that reward for getting through it, prioritize it.

        1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

          Oh, that sounds nice. The end of tax season is (hopefully) going to coincide with me finishing a licensing program, so if all goes well I can throw myself a double celebration.

      2. Amy Sly*

        One of the most interesting statistics I came across was that the average SAHM in the 1970s spent as much quality time with her children as a working mom does today. The difference is that the mom today doesn’t spend anywhere near the effort in cooking and cleaning.

        Likewise, use some of that overtime/bonus (Dear Lord, I hope you’re getting some kind of extra money for it) for grocery delivery, a cleaning service, or other things you just don’t have the time and energy for right now.

        1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

          Happily, I’m hourly and well-compensated, so I’m making good money for this! Time and a half for weekday overtime, and double time for weekend work. But I’m also studying for my supervisory securities licenses in my spare time (lol what spare time).

          1. Amy Sly*

            Less that than folks accept lower standards for cleanliness (I sure don’t vacuum and dust and mop the kitchen floor every week the way my mom does!) and that restaurant and processed dining are far more common.

            1. Curmudgeon in California*

              This. I don’t dust, mop, sweep, vacuum or scrub floors on a monthly basis, much less weekly. I’m disabled, it’s a big accomplishment for me to do a once over with the vacuum cleaner. To mop a floor, I need to sit on a stool in the middle of the room and just turn. If it gets to be to messy, I hire someone to come in and do the heavy cleaning.

          2. Alexandra Lynch*

            In places we don’t realize, too.
            We modernly don’t require someone in our household to put out a three course dinner every night, just as my partner doesn’t require me to give him an ironed pair of pants and an ironed and starched shirt every morning to go to work. Permanent press and the acceptance of much more casual clothing in most industries has definitely helped.

            We DO do that in the summer because he runs hot and linen is so much cooler, and it is a sizeable chunk of my time on laundry day to iron and starch his linen shirts and linen pants for the week ahead. I don’t mind because I view that as being my job, but it’s definitely something we don’t have to deal with in the winter.

      3. Jedi Squirrel*

        Agreed. I signed up for a laundry service and it’s been great. I save so much time not sorting, washing, drying, folding. It’s my little gift to myself every three weeks.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          My wife and I send out our two big bags of laundry once a month. It comes back folded and clean, and they use fragrance free detergent by request.

          If I have to do laundry, particularly folding, I end up in pain. It’s worth the money to pay people with folding boards and a better set-up to do it.

      4. introverted af*

        I don’t have the super long hours, but my commute recently increased and I’m trying to save time and energy wherever I can.

        Even if you don’t want to or can’t get grocery deliveries, I have found that ordering my groceries ahead and being able to just pick them up makes my life so much easier. I spend the same amount of time I normally would planning my grocery list, about 5-15 minutes picking things out online and placing the order, and only 10 or 15 extra minutes on my commute to pick things up, instead of the whole hour to go to the store and pick everything out and check out and go home.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Is spreading the hours over six days an option, and if so, would it help you? I work 6:30-3:30 M-F and 4a-1p on Sundays, and have done for something like four years now. (I am also an early morning person and the software I work with goes down for weekly maintenance at 2p on Sundays.)

      Caveat: I work from home, so I don’t have to take a commute into account, which I know changes the game somewhat. My husband regularly works 10 hour days with an hour commute, and he … pretty much doesn’t do anything except on weekends, other than staring blankly at a book or Netflix.

      1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

        Unfortunately not. I’m welcome to work weekends (and get paid double time for it!) but I’m also expected to work 9+ hour weekdays, since weekdays is where our volume hits.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          in that case, all I got is, make sure you’re taking your vitamins – 5000 units of D helped us both massively. Good luck!

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, you don’t have a life. The hobbies fall by the wayside. Your social life dies. You gradually just get into survival mode. It sucks.

    5. Mia 52*

      My regular schedule is 45 hours a week all year… There are a lot of comments about spending as much money as you need to feel better, but honestly I think that might add to the stress because the you will feel overworked AND like you’re blowing through all your money. My trick for being engaged on weeknights is to barely set my stuff down and start dinner/cleaning/project. If I get all smooshed into the couch I will never get up. So I set my purse down and leave all my stuff on and grab my dog for a walk. Then when I get in from that I start the next thing without missing a beat.

    6. Sherm*

      How is the quality of your sleep? Not just the hours spent, but how refreshed you feel. I recently improved my sleep quality, and it’s made a huge difference. I had to wake up at 6:30 am today (early for me), and I woke up before the alarm clock and felt ready to go. My concentration is better and I feel more “up” for things. This is also a busy time for me, so I know that when there’s a lot on your plate it helps to have as much mental energy as possible.

    7. CdnAcct*

      I’m in a similar boat, not working much more than my previous role and feeling very brain-dead, just wanting to sit on the couch and watch something. I think and hope it’s not just the hours but the change, and that once I’m more used to this role I’ll feel better.
      In the meantime, as Zona mentioned, be more aware of how you feel and try to do more self-care.

    8. Salsa Your Face*

      Any chance you’re a morning person? Or can become a morning person? If you’re that exhausted when you get home in the evening, then those few hours you spend staring at a book or the internet aren’t worth staying up for. It sounds like it could be worth going to bed right away, waking up early, and indulging in your hobbies before work when you’re fresh and rested. (Obviously this depends on what your hobbies are!)

      1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

        I’m a morning person, and this is actually a bone of contention; the last time schedules were handed out, I got bumped to a later shift than I prefer, and my overtime has been tacked on to the end of my day instead of the beginning. I’d be much happier working 7a-5p, but as it is I’m working 9a-7p. Once my manager situation has settled down (old manager changed jobs a month ago, interim manager barely sees me, new manager is starting next week) I’m gonna advocate for a schedule shift.

        1. RecoveringSWO*

          I was just about to comment with Salsa’s advice. While you’re waiting to advocate for a shift change, test out hobbies/self care during the morning before work. You may find that you prefer giving yourself your “best hours” instead of work!

      2. Alexandra Lynch*

        My boyfriend gets up at five so that he can have an hour and a half to do his hobbies and enjoy the silence before he has to get on with eating breakfast, shower, etc. in order to go to work. When he starts a new contract, I will also be getting up at five so that I can immediately take the car, go work out (mornings before breakfast work for me) and get it back in time for him to go to work. We go to bed earlyish, but that’s okay.

    9. anonymous for this*

      Law firm lawyer here – most of my weeks are 40+ hours, so I have some thoughts. To fit in weeknight hobby time, if I get home at say, 7 or 8, I mentally allow myself an hour to make a quick dinner and veg on the couch with a half-glass of wine and half-hour-long TV show. Sometimes, this mentally recharges me enough to head into my sewing room and work on a project. Even if it’s just for 30 minutes once during the week, this helps me feel more like my life is my own than if my day is limited to wake up, work, sleep, repeat. Other times, I can’t summon the energy and just try to be gentle with myself about that! During really intellectually draining weeks, I consciously lower the difficulty level of my hobby projects. For example, if I’m drafting a difficult brief at work, I am probably not going to spend my evening time doing something complicated like sewing a pair of jeans. I might cut out future projects, read reviews of a pattern I’m thinking about making, or make something simple I’ve already cut out – something that does not require focusing on complex instructions. Dedicated hobby space helps tremendously. I know that is not always possible, but not having to spend time setting up and putting away supplies means that if I have half an hour to sew, I actually spend it sewing! I also listen to hobby-related podcasts while I commute, which help me feel dialed in to my hobby even if I otherwise truly can’t spare a minute for it during my week.

      Energy-wise, I do the following: I generally check email for the last time at 11pm. After that, my brain knows I am done taking in new information until I wake up. I keep my phone in my office, not by my bedside. I was surprised that I slept so much better after this change! I take vitamins and make an effort to drink enough water and not too much coffee. I also make an effort to not skip lunch, no matter how many matters are having a crisis, because I am a less effective lawyer when a hunger headache hits me like a truck mid-afternoon because I forgot to eat lunch again, and I still have many hours to go in my work day. (All basic stuff, but thought I’d mention it because I had a string of busy, hard workdays not too long ago and felt terrible, then realized I was drinking maybe two glasses of water a day, with meals only. No wonder I felt awful – I was really dehydrated.)

      On weekends: I sleep in. I ruthlessly prioritize chores so I don’t end up feeling like they took up half my weekend. (Load of essential laundry? Yes. Dusting each individual bookshelf? Nope!) If time is really at a premium, I might have groceries delivered instead of shopping to save myself the time. If I want to meet up with friends, we meet at their house, a restaurant, the park – somewhere I do not have to worry about getting my house in order before guests arrive. Plans with friends help a lot; if I make plans to see friends for Saturday night dinner, that motivates me to tackle my weekend work before that, I am not likely to cancel on them, and historically, I am usually glad I went. I long ago decided to try and socialize and work on hobby projects even if I’m tired, because I’m so often tired that if I never went out or worked on personal projects while tired, I’d never get around to doing those things. (Note, though, that I am talking about run-of-the-mill tiredness from being a healthy youngish adult who is just tired from working a lot. I am aware that there are many, many life and health situations for which “do the thing anyway even though you’re tired” does NOT work, and I absolutely don’t mean to discount those situations – I am just letting you know how I personally think about this, for me.)

    10. Double A*

      I’m a teacher so I have a job that really ebbs and flows depending on the time of year. The best way I deal with it is to just accept the seasonality of my job! Don’t fight that this is the period where it’s 100% work, and everything outside of work is survival. Make sure that exercise is part of “survival,” so prioritize building some into your schedule, though it’s okay if it’s less regular or intense than your normal routine. Don’t feel guilty that your hobbies are set aside for now; you’ll return to them in April, and can pick them up a little on the weekends if you feel like it.

      You can also accept that this is TV season. Pick a show to get through during your busy season, and guiltlessly watch a few episodes a night. Read right before bed, even if it’s just 15 minutes or so.

    11. Quinalla*

      A few things I’ve done to help with this as my husband and I both work FT and I work 45 hours at least and he is 40-45:
      1. Hire a monthly cleaning service – this ensures the house gets a good thorough cleaning once a month as we can keep it pretty well with the day to day, but you just keep putting off dusting, vacuuming, etc. when you are crunched.
      2. Online grocery ordering and pickup – I still have to go in the store for produce and more specialty things, but getting all the basics this way saves tons of time
      3. Exercising 4-5 days a week in the morning – this has greatly improved my energy. I couldn’t do it without in house exercise equipment which I know not everyone has.
      4. Sleeping in on weekends – kids are old enough to fend for themselves until 8 or 9 am so we can catch up on sleep.
      5. Having a few regularly scheduled monthly activities – for us it is board games and RPGs we host at our house, we stick to it and while sometime we are tired, we never regret doing it. Makes us clean up the house a little more too :)
      6. Make sure we are both pulling our weight on chores & kids stuff – take a hard look at this and divide it up more evenly as needed and also don’t be afraid to renegotiate this regularly as needs change.
      7. Make a point to recharge, whatever that means for you.

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        These are great! To add to #6, divvying up the chores in a manner that incorporates responsibility for the planning/mental load of each person’s assigned task really helps prevent burn out as well. Instead of me asking spouse to bathe the dog every other week and clip his nails every month, Spouse is simply in charge of all dog grooming and I don’t have to think about it. I can certainly help when asked, but I’m just managing my own chores.

      2. Windchime*

        I’m a big fan of online grocery shopping. I discovered it a couple of years ago and have never looked back. I have a long commute (about an hour each way) and the thought of going to the store to go up and down the aisles is the last thing I want to do. So it’s click, click, click and then I just stop by on the way home to pick up my groceries. I love it and recommend it for working people.

    12. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Ugh, sorry!! So…. I would take one of the weekend days and do nothing but stuff I wanted to do: read, hobby, meet friends, etc. The other day would be like a work day: I’d prioritize and then clean, do laundry, get out clothes for the next week, meal plan and cook ahead for the week, etc. Also try to get out of the office for a few minutes’ walk every day. But remember, top priority is to take care of yourself! Vacuuming (etc) can wait!

    13. 1098, 1099. Whatever.*

      No real answers, just wanted to offer my commiseration as another who is neck deep in forms and schedules and explaining why the IRS takes a dim view of pulling mileage out of thin air.

      1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

        God, yeah. I had to have the “no, really, we can’t just pretend that your traditional IRA has been a Roth for the last five years” talk the other day. Oyyyy….

  31. Anonymous Poster*

    I’m an agnostic in an office that is almost completely Christian (I believe we have a couple of Jewish coworkers and one atheist). We’re in a conservative and predominantly Evangelical area.

    Here, it’s not unusual for people to ask their friends to pray for their loved ones, whether their loved one is a sick pet awaiting test results or a relative applying for a job. Unfortunately, I’m finding this pretty uncomfortable at work. I’ve had bad experiences with organized religion, I don’t want to participate in rituals, and I don’t want to be asked to participate. I’m fine with requests for actions, like donating or volunteering, but not this.

    Does anyone have advice for both tamping down my possible overreaction and perhaps suggesting that we not do prayer requests at work?

    Note: Not interested in debating the validity or invalidity of prayer itself, or debating about prayer requests outside of work.

    1. Zona the Great*

      I don’t think you can realistically push back on this. Freedom of speech and all that. Do you feel any hostility toward you due to your beliefs?

      1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

        Freedom of speech isn’t applicable here. Just because something is legal to say doesn’t mean it’s appropriate at work. (In fact, quite a lot of legal things are inappropriate at work.)

        1. Leslie Knope*

          I’m in a similar situation at work. It’s a small company with mostly conservative-leaning folks who openly talk about politics and church. Luckily I can discreetly shut my door and not have to listen, but sometimes I feel put in an awkward spot. I’ve found ways to slink away unnoticed a few times, other times I just say something like, “Oh, I hate to hear they’re not well.”

          We have no HR since we only have like 8 employees, so I can’t bring it up to anyone. I just try to think about how it brings them comfort to ask for prayers, I’ll be pleasant towards them, but then try to remove myself from the conversation and go back to work.

      3. Fikly*

        That’s not what freedom of speech is? The first amendment means the government can’t censor you, it doesn’t apply to what coworkers say to each other.

        For Anonymous Poster, is there a middle ground where prayer requests happen, but are not requested of you? I am not super familiar with various versions of Christianity, but I feel like there are probably ones (or other religions) where prayer requests like this are not the done thing. Could you sort of imply association with one of those without directly saying it, thus perhaps coming across as acceptably religious, but getting the result you want?

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          The first amendment means the government can’t censor you, it doesn’t apply to what coworkers say to each other.

          Yes, thank you!

          1. Fikly*

            The second thing I usually follow this with, is that freedom of speech does not also mean freedom from consequences of that speech. People seem very confused by this concept.

    2. Youth*

      I feel you. I’m super religious, but I don’t think that belongs in an office if the work isn’t religious or religion-adjacent. I had a similar situation where an individual in my workplace constantly used their work email to invite everyone in the office to controversial political events. Our work had nothing to do with political activism. It made me super uncomfortable.

      I think it’s reasonable to go to HR and say, “Hey, this makes me uncomfortable, and it doesn’t seem appropriate in a secular setting.” But your mileage may vary depending on the overall atmosphere.

    3. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      Since you’re specifically asking how to tamp down your own reaction, I think you can try to implement a mental filter — along the lines of “pray = think good thoughts/cross your fingers.” In a specifically religious-language context with my family, I would say ‘pray for me’ in the same way I would ask my friends ‘wish me luck!’ when getting ready to do something difficult, and it might help your feelings if you try to read it in the same way.

      But I think you’re absolutely justified to ask if there can be something of a culture shift at work in the way people talk about this. I don’t know how much success you’re likely to have; if this is reflective of the broader culture, and especially if your office is smaller/less tuned in to Big HR Considerations, you may be fighting against the tide on this one. If you have a work mentor, or a good relationship with your boss, it might be reasonable to bring it up one-on-one in a feeling out sort of way. “Hey, I’ve noticed this is something we do in this company culture, but it’s uncomfortable for me. Do you think it would be feasible to look for a different way to phrase this at work so we aren’t inadvertently crossing the employment/religious practice streams?”

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        Yeah if they want to pray with you or pray all together – ugh, I hate that and I would absolutely try to get out of it. But if it’s just a request to pray, I translate that to, “send good thoughts” so I just nod and carry on my day.

      2. Anonymous Poster*

        I do have a boss whom I would consider a mentor. He’s a very considerate person in many respects, but he’s also been a missionary – I don’t know if he’d necessarily see pushing Christian practice on people as a *bad* thing. That phrasing sounds good if I talk about this with him.

        1. Count Boochie Flagrante*

          Uf, yeah, that does make it awkward.

          I saw that you commented above that you haven’t felt comfortable discussing your personal beliefs at work. Would you prefer to take the white lie stance? You might get more traction with a missionary boss if you frame it as having a different prayer tradition that doesn’t mesh well with casual requests to pray, and let it remain unsaid that your prayer tradition is “don’t.”

    4. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I get this. I live and work in a very much NOT conservative region (or office) and most of my family/friends are predominantly Catholic/Christian and this is often phrased this way. It makes me uncomfortable, too, as I also identify as agnostic.

      I usually say something non-committal, “Of course my thoughts are with you during this difficult time,” or, “Sending you all of the good vibes and energy,” or even just, “I am so sorry to hear you/your loved one is going through this.” I think there are ways to turn it slightly that won’t be obvious and also won’t offend anyone.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I send a lot of good vibes and think a lot of good thoughts (or at least I say I do) in place of prayers.

        It’s total lip service. Think of it as just wishing the person/friend/family member good luck and never think of it again.

    5. blink14*

      Try to reframe how you are interpreting the requests. I grew up Catholic, but have not actively practiced the religion in many years. When people ask for prayers, or say they’ll be praying for you, its generally coming from a good place and is well intentioned. Think of those requests as a way to pass along positive thoughts and best wishes.

      I do think requests for prayers are baked deep into certain cultures, both locally and on a larger level, and often aren’t really religious in nature, but another way of saying something like “so and so is having surgery, lets send good thoughts to them”. This is something the people in your office have likely grown up doing and it is cemented in their lives, be it within their family or the local area. I can see how constant requests would get annoying, but in the end, it sounds less like the requests are strictly religious, and more that this is how the people you work with support those around them.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I was raised Quaker and we “hold people in the Light”, which conveniently sort of splits the difference between active prayer and just good thoughts. But I, personally, am an atheist and, while I will gladly spare all the good wishes I have, if somebody asked me to pray RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW I’d definitely be put on the spot, because that is something I can’t do without actively lying, which a) might put me in a hard spot with my coworkers, and b) still feels really bad, even if I don’t share their beliefs.

        So I wonder if the biggest part of the problem is being asked to pray here-and-now? Because if I was just asked to pray in general, they’d never know if or by what method I did so and it wouldn’t really be an issue.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          If they asked you to pray for someone right here and now, I’d respond with “I don’t pray in public. I will keep the person in my thoughts.”

          Different Christian denominations have different traditions on prayer. IIRC, some literally don’t pray “in public”, ie outside of the house or church. The biblical citation for this is Matthew 6:4-6.

          Notice that none of this claims that you will, in fact “pray” for them.

          In most situations, “pray for X” is just Christian-speak for “wish them luck” or “wish them well”.

          Background: I was raised baptist, but have been pagan for 40 years.

        2. KoiFeeder*

          Wait. Holding people in the Light isn’t basically what people mean when they talk about praying for someone?

          I’m not even Quaker anymore how did I miss this.

      2. CatLadyInTraining*

        I’m not super religious so I usually just say “Sending good thoughts your way!” “i’m thinking about you at the moment.”

    6. Construction Safety*

      I wouldn’t be interested in praying for someone at work while at work & in a group, as in “lets all now pray for Fergus”.
      I’d probably just defer, & say “I will” or some such.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      How are they asking? Is it a company-wide email, or are people approaching their co-workers/friends and asking for prayers? If it’s the latter, then no, you can’t say anything. If it’s a company-wide email, then I would find that really odd but also really easy to delete/ignore. Now, if someone is approaching you personally, you can shut that down and say you’re not a believer (or however you want to phrase it) but you hope whatever bad situation resolves itself quickly and well.

      I’m Jewish and I dislike being asked to pray for someone, though I will say prayers for people I know who are ill. However, I have managed to realize that the requests have more to do with the requester than with me, so I let a lot go. When someone says, “I’m praying for you” I will sometimes shut it down (context is everything) but usually I just ignore or nod or whatever. I don’t find it worth my energy to argue.

    8. Onerous Amorphous*

      Is it the kind of thing where you can gently respond “I’ll be thinking good thoughts for you/your sister/your dog” and let that be the end of the conversation? Or are they asking you to get on your knees and pray with them in that moment, write their name on a church’s prayer list, or participate in some sort of group prayer ritual at the office?

      In my experience growing up in a similar kind of area, the first was usually sufficient, and most people won’t push farther than that.

      I would try to frame this in your mind as an expression of worry by your coworkers over whatever is troubling them in their lives/families, and not them trying necessarily to push their religion on you, even though it is presumptive for them to look at you and assume that you’re the praying type.

    9. Sleepy and painful*

      I cant think of a way to convey this to anyone aside from outright saying something like “I know a lot of people are comforted by religion and prayers but it can make people/me uncomfortable. Can you please not include me in prayer requests?” But you might get people who don’t understand boundaries wanting to discuss why with you.

      If it helps any, I am an athiest and I see them less as being about religion and more about people trying to tap into the power of positivity during troubling times. I reframe it as more hoping for the best rather than being religious. Plus if a loved one is dealing with health stuff, there isnt that much most people can do to help so prayer requests can make people feel like they are trying to help their loved one. Maybe thinking of it as less prayer and more cross your fingers and hope for the best that might help.

    10. Behth*

      This is probably getting really annoying for you, but unfortunately, there’s no gracious way to say “I won’t pray for your family member/pet/illness,” especially if it’s something that person is really worried about. It will come across as hostile and uncaring. Are you getting these requests in person or via email? In both cases you should just be able to say “I’m so sorry/that must be rough/good luck, I’ll be thinking of you/them.” You aren’t making a promise to pray that you don’t intend to keep, and you aren’t making the situation awkward by going against the convention. These people aren’t really looking for your prayers, they’re just wanting some recognition of a difficult experience. Or they’re just sharing a life update and “say a prayer” is just part of the delivery.

    11. SomebodyElse*

      I think you just need to make piece with this at this particular office.

      FTR… I am religious and I’m not keen on a lot of prayer talk in offices (and the dreaded biblical email signature). But it is what it is and to me I file it right along with discussions and questions about the newest reality show.

    12. MsManager*

      I sympathize. I’m an atheist in a town that has a church on every block.

      If they are simply talking about prayers, or emailing requests for prayers, maybe just ignoring it is the solution. If they are asking you to come clasp hands in a prayer circle, that’s harder to decline without drawing attention to yourself. Honestly, if it is a situation where it would hurt you at work to decline, I would conveniently have to go to the bathroom every time there’s a group prayer.

      Several years ago, I did push back when a coworker repeatedly asked me to attend an after hours work session so her prayer group could pray over me, because my then-husband was deployed in Iraq, and her group thought God told Bush to start the Iraq war to bring about the apocalypse. But I let it go for as long as I possibly could, because it wasn’t worth the hassle of being outed as a heathen.

      1. Anna Maus*

        Gah! I admire your strength in not going off on them.

        I was out as an agnostic when I lived in the Bible belt and it was awkward and uncomfortable because people felt the need to save me. I remember at a pot luck someone insisted on a prayer to ‘bless the food.” I left the room and came back five minutes later.

    13. Mia 52*

      Are they asking YOU to pray are or are they just asking each other and its making you uncomfortable? If someone wants me to pray or during family meal times where my family prays I just sit quietly and send out “good thoughts” or “positive energy”. Although I’m a path of least resistance person. lol.

    14. theletter*

      I would think this would be inappropriate in meetings or email, if your company does anything other than sell prayer books, this is taking time and energy away from work.

      I would slowly work on this framing as you experience it – if it’s the CEO’s all company meeting, it’s not going to be easy to push back on. If it’s a team lead weekly meeting, you could suggest they separate that portion and make it optional, as you do mean the best for your team but you also need to get your work done!

      If it’s coming through in an email chain, I would ignore it until you get some egregious example. Then you might be able to take it up the chain by saying ‘I don’t mind people sharing their personal lives, but I get a lot of email, and having to sort through a prayer request for Sally’s cousin’s Goldfish is just another level of distraction that makes it difficult to do my job. Could we make an opt-in prayer group for these requests?”

      If it’s happening in and around the cubefarm, treat it as disruption – after the prayer request, approach the person and ask them to hold their meetings in a conference room in the future so that you can focus on your work.

    15. Double A*

      There are a couple of ways to respond when someone asks you to pray for someone. You could say, “They’ll be in my thoughts.” Or you could say, “Prayer isn’t part of my spiritual practice, but they will be in my thoughts.” I would use the second one if you have someone who seems to bring it up a lot.

      If someone says they’re praying for you (in an innocuous way, like if you’ve told them you’re having a medical procedure for example), I think the best thing you can do is accept it as a kindness, the same way you hope they accept “I’ll be thinking of you/them” as a kindness.

    16. RagingADHD*

      Well, would you feel the same if your coworkers said, “Wish me luck,” or “Cross your fingers for us, the surgery is tomorrow,” or “Can you send some good vibes, we need a diagnosis…”

      I mean, that is the equivalent in non-religious language. This is personal conversation about their families and pets, not some kind of mandate from your employer. You can always respond with “Best wishes” or just “Oh, that’s too bad, I hope they feel better soon.”

      It is theoretically possible to push back on this, but I can’t imagine any way of doing it thst isn’t going to come across to your coworkers as you saying, “I don’t give a crap about your sick mother, amd I don’t want to hear about it any more.”

      I know that’s not your intention, but in a culture where “prayer requests” are the social standard for sharing personal concerns or vulnerability, it’s going to come across as a very pointed personal rejection.

      1. Fikly*

        Except that saying something like “wish me luck” does not have the implication that “your religion is made up” or otherwise invalidates someone’s belief. Asking someone to pray for someone else does, if that person is not of any faith. It’s not equivalent.

        1. RecoveringSWO*

          I can see how phrasing personal news is sticky for people of varying religious beliefs and non-beliefs. Some religious beliefs would treat “luck” as blasphemy and requests for “good vibes” or “crossed fingers” as similarly blasphemous. Asking someone to pray for them might be taken well by people of varying faiths and not offend some non-religious folks, but it would also clash with some other religions and offend some non-religious people too. It’s complicated and I would recommend trying to give your coworkers the benefit of the doubt.

        2. RagingADHD*

          Yeah, actually it is equivalent because it doesn’t mean anything about the other person’s beliefs at all.

          It means “I am worried about my loved one and could use some emotional support, please.”

          But by all means, go ahead and take offense where none was intended, and make other people’s request for some human kindness in a difficult time all about yourself.

          I’m sure it will get you exactly the kind of relationships and work environment you want.

          1. Fikly*

            There is a difference between taking offense and being triggered because you have been traumatized by religion/people using religion as justification.

            It’s perfectly acceptable to do what you need to keep yourself safe. And to want some kindness for yourself.

    17. RecoveringSWO*

      Another way to reframe this would be to treat it as people saying “God bless you” after someone sneezes. There’s religious connotations, but you can brush those connotations off because it’s such a common phrase. Try to think of your coworkers using the prayer request phrase just as a softer way of telling bad news and expressing concern. It wasn’t too long ago that we were discussing how hard it is to find ideal phrasing for sharing bad personal news at work. Sorry that you have to deal with this issue/workplace.

    18. Observer*

      What happens when people make these requests? Does someone ask people who will participate? Does anyone follow up or question decisions?

      If yes, then you could say something like “You know, we really shouldn’t be pushing people to pray. I know we all want to be supportive to each other, but there are some people for whom these requests are problematic. I know we want to be respectful of everyone’s religious beliefs, so it’s better if we don’t do this.”

      Otherwise, I doubt you can find a way to ask the to not even ask without turning this into a THING.

    19. Anon Here*

      I think there are two ways to tackle this: 1) What to say to co-workers in the moment. 2) The organization’s policy.

      I would start with the second. Find out what the company’s policy is on religious inclusiveness (meaning making people of all beliefs feel welcome) and prayer requests etc at work. If it seems like there’s room for improvement, bring that up. Find the right person to talk to and have a conversation about how the business can support non-Christian employees and make everyone feel equally welcome and respected in regards to their beliefs. And how everyone should handle prayer requests. Because it seems like this could be solved with a quick reminder from management to leave prayer requests out of the office, or only include people who you know are ok with it – whatever the policy is.

      But that might not happen, or it might take time. So, in the mean time, I think you can shut it down without saying much about your own beliefs. I’m not sure what verbiage would work best, but maybe just say that you’re private about your beliefs or that you don’t want to discuss religious subject matter at work? It could be tough, but it’s worth a try.

      Ultimately, management should have your back. The policy thing would be the most effective, and it might be in the company’s best interest for legal reasons.

    20. Batgirl*

      I use an internal translator for this stuff: as others have said they essentially mean the same as “wish me luck” or “bless you” when you sneeze (And even if it doesn’t, they don’t have to know how well your beliefs match up).
      If I get asked to pray for someone I just respond with “Oh I will definitely (be thinking about them)”. Or I say that I am looking forward to them experiencing better times.
      I come from a really ritualized background where prayers are said with rosaries. I don’t feel at all connected with this way of doing things but neither do I feel any pressure or belief that I should be explaining myself to people: especially if they are just looking for general human connection or support.
      Now of course there are jerks who won’t accept general good will and the whole conversation is them just wanting to make sure you are praying and doing so *properly*. To those people I usually just say that my beliefs are private but you don’t owe them any truth, or answer at all.

  32. Sleepy and painful*

    I have been at my job over 6 months now. I have done this same role at previous companies. I passed probation with stellar reviews and my boss is super happy with my work. Its not the kind of role where you need long to get it. Especially if you have done it before.

    This is the first place though where work from home is discouraged. Everywhere else I have worked I have been able to. There really isnt a reason against it. I have done it here when I injured my foot without issue. And other people have but its just looked down on UNLESS you have kids. The people on the team with kids get a lot more freedom and some have even arranged to do it weekly.

    Our role is not public facing, I think I get 1 phone call a month, and everything can be done remotely. Its just perceived badly. I have health issues and am trying to arrange to be able to work from home more often. But my company has no policy for this and are trying to ask our employee assistance program for advice and send me to them when really they do like counselling and advice on finance and stuff. I already have specialists at the hospital. I just need more flexibility from them.

    I am in the UK, how do I get them to understand I just want reasonable adjustments? And should I really be talking to our helpline about it??

    1. WellRed*

      This is not a helpline issue. Does the UK Offer things like workplace accommodations? I also think it’s worth pointing out that employees are being treated unequally.

    2. Ange*

      You’re in the UK, so reference the Equality Act and say you’re asking for reasonable adjustments. The EAP is not the right place to be talking to: should be HR or occupational health (if your company has an occ health dept). Also, try getting one of your specialists/GP to write a letter stating that working from home is the reasonable adjustment you require.

      If you have a union, then speak to them too.

    3. Never Nicky*

      The key phrase is “reasonable adjustment”. And this is enshrined in the Equality Act 2010. This applies if your health issues are long term and on-going. Citizen’s Advice website has clear information about this.

      Ask your EAP or HR team for a referral to an occupational health specialist. They might suggest other things you haven’t thought of, which might be even more beneficial.

      Access to Work are also incredibly helpful (at least they were in my area) and they can help with – for example – paying for the equipment for you to use at home, so that your employer doesn’t have to.

      1. lobsterp0t*

        Yes. Access to Work was incredibly helpful in part funding a bunch of things that made a big difference to me at my current job

    4. Bagpuss*

      I think if you haven’t already, you need to be explicit (preferably in writing to your line manager cc’d to HR) that you are making a request for a reasonable adjustment due to a disability.
      If you haven’t spoken to the EAP then it may make sense to do so once – you might make more progress if they explicitly say that they can’t assist (and they may know who you do need to speak – they may have had to redirect people who have been wrongly referred before!)

    5. lobsterp0t*

      Ideally you say “reasonable adjustments which enable/prevent XYZ” and your boss will seek HR advice and get help to support you to put these in place.

      I would suggest asking for an OH referral and working with the OH specialist to help you advocate for what you need from your employer. This was helpful when I went through a similar process. This is also because OH can be helpful in educating employers on how to support you as an employee who has your specific needs. This can even include – with your consent – your own consultants sharing information to support or enhance their recommendations.

      It ultimately doesn’t matter if they have “a policy”. In the UK you have rights as a disabled person (you didn’t say that but the equalities legislation covers disability as a protected characteristic and you are describing a number of things that suggest your condition might qualify) and, on top of that, even if your condition isn’t considered a disability (yet), certain employees are legally permitted to make 1 formal/statutory flexible working request per year. Again, regardless of policy. This is protected in law. Even if you aren’t eligible for a statutory request, you can still make a non statutory one!

      It will help a lot if you can explain – without needing to explain details of your medical situation – how this arrangement would help your work. Would it reduce absence by minimising illness or flares/relapses? Allow you flexibility to work around hospital appointments? Enable you to avoid the commute which might be a factor in how well you feel on any given day? Etc.

      Don’t feel that you need to give them gory details. You don’t need to justify yourself. They’re obliged to identify and work with you to identify what adjustments would make sense.

      1. lobsterp0t*

        Oh. And be warned that OH may state their view on whether or not your situation is likely to constitute a disability under the equality act of 2010.

        Don’t let this throw you off too much. Just make sure you are clear and honest about the impact on your life and work. And hopefully your employer can sort themselves out.

  33. 2nd verse?*

    Am I overreacting? I got laid off from my job in October after being there for less than a year. It was my first job doing what I went to school for, but my company lost a major investor and had to downsize.

    Fast forward to January, when I found a new position. Great salary, nice commute, and I like the people I work with! And then one of my coworkers let slip last week that it’s very likely that our small company will be acquired by a billion dollar enterprise with multiple branches very very soon. They’re not looking to lay anyone off, but they would “consolidate [the team I’m on] of the 3 companies they own.” I’m the most junior and don’t have any unique skills– they could replace me with a freelancer or independent agency, if they don’t already have several people doing my job. How worried should I be?

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I wouldn’t panic. I’ve worked at two companies (still at the one) who acquired companies on the regular. Even if you’re acquired it takes a little time for them to sort things out. The former company bought smaller ones frequently. My boss actually co-managed our office and one of the new ones for a while. She did have to let people go….but that’s because they weren’t adapting to our policies and procedures after nearly a year.

      Obviously, your mileage may vary and I recognize that the above isn’t always the case. But I still wouldn’t panic yet (with the obvious caveat that it never hurts to work on your resume).

    2. Sleepy and painful*

      Well

      a. Likely to buy isnt the same thing as bought. This is all gossip at this point. Unless she is senior enough and privy to information about deals in progress and even then it still sounds a likely not a done deal.
      B. Even if they do buy it, it usually takes time. In my experience they will want to evaluate your team and the work it does prior yo any consolidation. Along with a transition of work. There may be lay offs at some point but its unlikely to be right away. Its still in the companies best interest to keep employees for a while to ensure there is a smooth transition of work and that there is no drop in work/business quality.

      I worked at a company that got bought out and left of my own 8 months later. All my colleagues were still there at the year point.

      I would advise you keep working, make sure you are a stellar employee as best you can and get more time and tenure under your belt. If you are worried about not having enough unique skills you can always ask to shadow others or do trainings. I think its too soon to worry about a layoff though.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. My company just recently acquired a smaller company with a product we really wanted to sell, and none of that company’s employees have been laid off to the best of my knowledge. Just keep your eyes open, ears to the ground, and take on as many stretch assignments as you can to beef up your skills in the event that something does happen later down the line.

    3. Frankie*

      These kind of transitions can take forever to get going and what has worked for me in the past was a “wait and see” situation with a semi-active job search as a “just in case,” mostly to make myself feel a bit more in control in all the uncertainty.

      And easier said than done, but try not to worry about it, since if it does happen, you have no idea how it will actually play out, and it will probably take quite a while.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      Agree with Wannabe… these transitions are usually measured in years, not months. The other thing is that this could be an opportunity too. As soon as you are technically part of this new bigger organization you can start looking for different opportunities within the larger organization, then you’re an internal vs. an external candidate.

    5. Ama*

      As others have said here, there’s no way to know for sure what’s going to happen until it actually happens (and maybe think about whether this is a coworker who can be trusted to have accurate info, or might be presenting conjecture as fact). But it’s never a bad idea to go ahead and start prepping your resume, making sure you have all your reference contact info (you don’t need to contact them yet, just make sure you know where it is) while there’s no great rush so if you do need to start applying you’re already ready.

      I just had this conversation with my husband yesterday, as some stuff is going down with his big boss that is making everyone think their company (a startup) is about to be sold. There’s no way to know yet what is actually happening — and there is always a possibility a sale could actually offer more opportunity for my husband depending on who the buyer is — but prepping before you’re in the ” must get new job now” mindset is always a good idea.

    6. Third or Nothing!*

      For what it’s worth, I’ve been through 2 acquisitions and I’m still with the same company (well, not technically but you know what I mean). Each acquisition brought higher pay and more opportunities, and the latest one a 5 figure retention bonus. So it might not be the kiss of death!

    7. Curmudgeon in California*

      My first layoff was due to an acquisition. People who’d been there 39 years were let go to consolidate operations into a distant property that the corporation owned, not a rented building like we were in. Very few people were offered relocation – the other company people all got to keep their jobs. It was very badly handled, and there was a lot of anger. This was in the early 80s, when Reagan was president and they unleashed the frenzy of mergers and acquisitions that still hasn’t stopped, plus they made actual pensions a thing of the past at most companies.

      Fast forward to the mid nineties, and I was working for another company that got acquired. I had to have some serious talks with my boss and grandboss about whether we would be shafted in the acquisition or not. We weren’t, but I was nervous for a while.

      So it can go either way, and any change takes time. Talk with your management, and see what their sense is. But make sure your resume is up to date.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      How does your co-worker (presumably a similar/peer level to you) know this info and you don’t? For example did they read this in the “mergers and acquisitions” gossip section of whatever your trade magazine is? Heard it via the gossip train? Or what?

      I’ve been through this kind of acquisition (in the company being acquired) several times and actually… often they do seek to consolidate the ‘x’ function (where I’m assuming your x is a sort of centralised function like accounting, IT, marketing, HR (!) etc) but it usually takes much longer than anticipated, doesn’t start for a long time, and other people leave in the meantime due to the uncertainty so even if it does happen it wouldn’t happen immediately but would be more of a process and not necessarily impact you. But I’m not gonna lie… it could impact you and I do feel it’s a legitimate thing to be concerned over.

      I’m curious why you worry specifically that you could be replaced with a “freelancer or independent agency”. You were recruited as a direct employee to carry out the x function — even before the acquisition (if it even happens) they had the option to get the x function done by a freelancer or independent agency — why? Because for them there’s value in having x done “in house” rather than by outsourcers (which I can quite understand — I’ve had mixed experiences with outsourcers, to put it mildly). The advantage of doing x in-house rather than outsourced increases in most cases for a larger company (I’m assuming that you know that the potential billion dollar company already has their own x function in-house).

      In your position I would look at this as an opportunity. Take all the responsibility you can and assist with the transition (if it ever turns out to be true). Proving yourself and your potential is the best chance to get an opportunity in the new company.

      A billion dollar enterprise is almost certainly a listed company isn’t it? I would check all your information sources for ‘rumours’ about this possible acquisition and then judge what you find there. I think it’s unlikely that your co-worker is privy to info that isn’t already “out there” unless it’s just gossip at this point. But there’s often some truth to ‘rumours’ like this (if they aren’t just gossip).

      I really do understand how you feel, as a person prone to anxiety and worry especially.

  34. yeine*

    hi all, happy friday.

    this tuesday i just got my first direct report (terrifying, but exciting!), so i’m hoping all my aam reading will make me a great manager who communicates effectively. i will start by threatening to fire them if they don’t join a kidney donation list for my family member, and then i’ll go to a funeral to give them work to do. kidding.

    actual snag. i am salaried and don’t always spend 8 hours at work. up until this point an individual contributor. a few times a week i’ll come in at 9, take an hour lunch where i don’t work, and leave at 5. a few times a week i’ll come in at 9, take an hour lunch, and leave at 7. i find this usually comes out in the wash and my coworkers and manager think i do great work. the work is not time-sensitive, and it gives me flexibility which i value.

    my employee, however, is hourly, and sits next to me. they come in at 9:30, take an hour lunch, and leave at 6:30.

    i feel uncomfortable with coming in after them and leaving before them. i don’t want them to think i’m a slouch, or that i don’t put effort in, or that i’m setting a bad example about how much they should or shouldn’t work. but it sucks to feel i’m losing flexibility.

    should i just assume they will figure it out on their own? should i say something?

    1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I don’t think it would hurt to tell them about your typical schedule and how it comes out in the wash. The way you described it here sounds reasonable and easy to understand.
      I’ve had bosses who regularly came in after me and left before me (without exception– this person never put in longer days or worked remotely) and honestly, it did bother me. Better to put it out there so that she knows the deal.

      1. valentine*

        I would find this condescending. Don’t set the dangerous precedent of explaining your timekeeping to them.

    2. Overeducated*

      I would say something, it sounds like your expectations of them are different than what they will see from you and it would be useful for them to know the reason.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Yeah just give them a heads up that your hours tend to vary based on deadlines/other departments/meetings with clients in a different time zone so there will be times your schedules won’t match.
      I will say that it would be a huge help to your new report if you synced up your hours for a few weeks while they get up to speed/trained.
      Signed,
      The person spending a lot of time on AAM because their manager and trainer are working offsite

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        I don’t think OPs varying hours are based on deadlines, time zones, other departments etc as much as they are for OPs own flexibility — which changes it somewhat.

    4. Ama*

      I manage a non-exempt employee (which is unusual in my office, most of us here are exempt), so when she started I did try to explain the difference between expectations for non-exempt positions and exempt positions, largely because several of her exempt peers in other departments were giving her incorrect info because they didn’t know they were classified differently.

      One nice thing to point out is if there are any trade-offs. With mine I noted that her schedule was less flexible but that she’d get paid overtime when asked to work outside those hours (in our office that happens a few times a year) and that we had to pay her anytime she was asked to do something like check her email over a weekend.

    5. spoonandcherry*

      I think being transparent about your work schedule will go a long way in building trust and understanding. If you don’t already have weekly meetings scheduled (I highly suggest them! They can be quick, but make giving hard feedback SO MUCH easier because you’re already in the habit of giving feedback and updating each other), add it to you agenda. You can explain your hours for that week, even if it’s a – I’m leaving early today because I know I’ll have a long day on Monday- type of update. This way it’s not a hierarchical feeling when you talk about your hours, but rather a transparency and accountability conversation. People respect that sort of transparency a lot.

    6. pamplemousse*

      I’d say something, especially if your employee is new to the workforce. Doesn’t have to sound defensive, just something like “Just so you know, I’m on a slightly different schedule from you …” and let them know what (if anything) they should do if they need something while you’re not there.

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        Yes, saying something like this gives them a heads up without making it seem like you need to keep particular hours for their benefit. I’ve always understood that people above me tend to work later at times due to their positions. I want to see that work-life balance is enough of a priority for them (and the company) that they can leave earlier/take a long lunch/go to an exercise class some days. I’ve also seen other entry level employees not get this concept right away, so saying something should prevent any resentment or misunderstanding on your report’s part.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Can you match your hours to theirs for a couple of weeks and then have the discussion about differing expectations of exempt vs non exempt?

      I’m assuming your report is still being trained in some aspects of the job at least, so what happens if she has some issue at (say) 5.30 but you’ve left for the day?

    8. BethDH*

      Say something. If nothing else, you will want to explain how they should communicate with you when you’re there/not there, what to do if something is urgent, and so on.

  35. another face in the crowd*

    Mergers are weird. My current boss has been antsy since we merged and moved into our shared space. He is being really passive-aggressive and saying things like “you need to learn simple math” , saying I am bad at my job when in the 18 months since I have been here he has taught me the bare minimum (I’m not bad just he won’t share information I need ) and tells me CUSTOMERS come first but then gives me a ton of side work and gets annoyed when I focus on my clients. I got a cost of living raise right after the merger was announced (he hasn’t had a raise in 4 years) and he has been treating me strangely since. I am so nervous that he is going to take his feelings about the merger out on me during our annual review. I am not saying that I am perfect, I know that there are things I need to improve, but I feel like he is going to make me seem like I am garbage. I want to talk to his boss about this but he is based in another office several states away and is very busy so I don’t know how to approch it.

      1. another face in the crowd*

        I don’t believe so. If he has then he has not shared them with me, which is silly because if he is judged by those metrics I would have similar metrics.

    2. Hapax Legomenon*

      If your grandboss knows enough about your day-to-day work to weigh in, maybe you could start with asking for some kind of clarification about the information he’s refusing to share, with the sense that you’re just trying to understand if that information isn’t supposed to be yours at all, as a way to alert grandboss to the situation. Or the mixed message about whether you’re supposed to be doing side work or focusing on clients. From there you can get a feeling for what his overall reactions are and move into the larger issue if you judge that he’ll understand. At the very least, it flags some of the “communication issues” you’re having for grandboss, and gives you a sense of whether you’re going to get any support or if you’re on your own to deal with your boss undermining you.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      The sense I get is that — your boss feels that he’s on his way out due to the merger — and tbh he’s probably right. It doesn’t sound like he contributes a great deal to the company tbh. I guess there’s already some history here since he hadn’t received a COL increase in 4 years (assuming that’s true? How do you know that? is it possible he’s manipulating you by saying that? only you can tell) and isn’t necessarily valued by his own managers anyway.

      I don’t think you need to do anything here unless/until he “takes out his feelings” in your annual review (what would that look like? a malicious bad review? what are you worried about specifically?)

      Do you ever have any interaction with his boss?

      I feel like this isn’t as much about “mergers are weird” but “boss has finally been exposed as not very good”.

  36. Retail not Retail*

    Repost from yesterday’s question – how do sick days work when you’re salaried and exempt?

    The one-two punch of the lateness thread (so many people saying they come in “around” or “about”) vs strict sick day limits has this hourly employee quite confused.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. WellRed*

      I’m not sure I understand the question. If a salaried person takes a sick day, it typically counts as a sick day. But, if they come in and leave at say, 3pm, they probably don’t mark down two hours of sick time (unless their company sucks).

      1. Not really a waitress*

        I worked for “suck” company. Also note that staying after 2 hours did not bank you leave early time later.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Not sure what you mean, “how do they work” – if your company tracks your sick time and requires you to use PTO for it (either specific sick time or a one-bucket system), then if you call in sick, you use 8 hours of sick/PTO.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          You’re still paid the same for the paycheck period, but you now have less sick time accrued.

          So if I work a particularly hectic week of 55 hours, I make the same as if I make my normal 40. Many employers give you a little bit of leeway for an hour or two here or there, so if I have a doctor’s appointment and only work 38 hours, my org doesn’t charge me sick time and I still make the same (provided I get it approved in advance). If I need to take a couple sick days, I’ve now worked only 24 hours a week and used two 8 hour sick days, but I still receive the same paycheck amount.

            1. ThatGirl*

              You generally can’t go negative, or are not supposed to – if you ran out of sick time you might have to use PTO, or go on short-term disability, or take an unpaid day off. It sounds like some companies are much more stringent about tracking sick days and PTO than others, so YMMV.

            2. Kimmy Schmidt*

              At my work, it’s nearly impossible to get unpaid time off. You exhaust all your sick leave first, then I believe you have to use all your personal leave, then move to short term disability. After that, conversations start happening about FMLA.

              We have generous leave policies and the only time this is ever an issue is when you have new employees, like in their first 1-2 months on the job. Even with that, most supervisors have an honor system way to figure out a way to make up the time instead of docking pay.

    3. AMownLawn*

      Not sure if this 100% answers your question, but in my office the exempt staff can only take sick time in half or full day increments. How this plays out in practice for my team is usually something like this: if you are going to be only an hour or two late (or leave an hour or two early) for an appointment, I don’t ask them to report any time. If they’ll be out closer to half the day, then take the half sick day. Ditto for the full day.

      I try to be as flexible as I can since my exempt staff are often working odd hours when they travel, which is a big part of their jobs.

    4. Kathenus*

      At my job for salaried/exempt sick days have to be used in full day increments. So generally speaking if I leave a few hours early for a doctor’s appointment or if I’m sick I don’t get charged, but if I take a full day or work less than a half day before leaving for sick time I get charged a full day.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Whereas in my salaried job we’re allowed to use sick time, specifically, in hour increments (vacation has to be half or full day) – but if I want to leave a little early or come in a little late for a doctor’s appointment I can typically do that without using time. And if I’m truly sick, I take the day and use 8 hours of my sick time up.

    5. noahwynn*

      In my experience, if you don’t come in at all, you take a sick day. If you leave early or come in late it just depends on the company. Sometimes they do half days, sometimes it is common to work an extra hour or two the next few days to make up, sometimes they don’t worry about it at all.

    6. NaoNao*

      Usually as a salaried employee you’re given a set amount of paid time off (meaning 8 hours of pay) to use as “sick time”. This can be for medical appointments or just being sick at home.

      If you’re sick and want to use “sick time” (usually it’s between 5 and 10 days available) you call, email, or text your immediate supervisor and say “I’m going to use my sick time today for x reason. Thanks.”

      When you return to work, usually you’ll have to access a timekeeping system to mark the day as “used” in a payroll system so that the payroll can keep track of the hours/days/used and how much you have left.

      So for example, you took Tuesday off to get a flu shot and recover (or whatever). You come back Wednesday and hop in “Payroll Express” and use the system to mark “Tuesday: PTO: SICK TIME” or similar.

      However, this sick time is unrelated to coming in at a certain time. Sometimes managers will allow flexibility like “I’d like to use a half day of sick time to visit my doctor” and then come in half way through the typical work day, leave early, or come in late when feeling ill, taking partial “sick time” in hourly increments. Usually a half day is the least amount you can take.

      1. Koala dreams*

        What happens if you run out of the available sick days, but are too sick to work? Do your pay get docked, do you get fired…?

        1. AcademiaNut*

          My understanding is that for salaried exempt, if you’re out of sick days, they can require you to use vacation days, and if you’re out of that, they can require you to take unpaid days (but only in full day increments). If the employee and company are eligible, FMLA may kick in (unpaid, but your job is protected). If FMLA isn’t available, the ADA might kick in depending on the reason for missing work – missing work because of the flu, or your kid being sick isn’t covered, missing work due to a qualifying disability might be.

          If none of that applies, I think they can fire you for excessive absences.

          In my job (non US, but equivalent to salaried exempt) there are provisions for longer leaves for serious illness if we use up our three weeks paid sick leave.

    7. Uncannycanuck*

      I’m union, but middle management and salaried. We get up to 6 months of sick time at 100% salary before transitioning to long term disability. Sick days are loosely monitored, and if you’re in a situation where actual extensive use of sick time is required, then more proof is required. Overall, people tend not to abuse the availability of sick time because no one does your work if you’re gone, so it’s mostly painful to yourself when you’re out.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        In my team, we don’t have a set amount of sick days. If we’re sick, we notify our manager and stay home. If we are out for more than 3 days, I think you’re supposed to officially notify HR and then there may be short-term disability or other ways to account for that time.
        But regular sickness is no big deal and is not tracked, unless your manager for some reason feels you’re taking too many sick days and is taking advantage of it. I think that would be shown in performance issues, though.
        Leaving early or taking half days for appointments is also not tracked. In some of those cases, people WFH so just let their manager know if they’ll be out a few hours for appointments. If I’m not going to be in the office, I’ll just WFH part of the day and go to my appointment the as needed, with no PTO in any case.

    8. Spreadsheets and Books*

      Really depends on your job. Sick leave and PTO are used on the honor system at my job. I assume there’s some sort of tracking system, but I don’t know how to access it and no one uses it. Things like coming in late and leaving early do not require taking any kind of leave.

      This was the same at my last job. Sick days and PTO days are allocated, but you’re expected to track it yourself and stick to the rules. When I quit that job, I had to email HR to tell them how many PTO days I used so they could pay out properly.

  37. J.B.*

    Job ads and changing language. In one case they were using language for something I don’t consider myself strong but really meaning something I am really strong in. In another they were using hyperspecific language for something that has generally been a part of my work for years.

    And the black hole of application tracking systems…AAARGH

  38. Miss Fisher*

    Frustrated again, but I don’t know how to deal with it. Our company implemented a new vendor service again. The training was crap and so I had to figure things out as I did my first use of the system. It wasn’t too difficult just different. The issue is, every single time a new process or system is developed, I get calls / emails / hey come to my desks, to help everyone else walk through the system. I typically don’t mind helping, but it irks me that no one actually tries to do it on their own. Everyone seems to expect me to just know everything when I have had the same amount of training. I have had people ask me to walk them through processes I haven’t even used yet. I don’t want to be rude and say hey figure it out, I had to, but how do you get people to at least try something on their own first? I guess it might be a difference in how we all learn. I learn by playing around and doing, so maybe I am expecting others to as well??

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I think it’s fair to gently push back and expect them to try to figure it out before asking you.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      I’m a bit confused. Are you managing these people or are they coworkers? If coworkers are they on the same team/department as you or no? You say you “don’t mind helping”, but this post says otherwise. You do mind, at least under certain circumstances. So I think you need to let people figure it out for themselves unless you happen to have the time/mental energy/desire to help. And if you don’t, “No” is an acceptable response to a peer-to-peer request in most work places. (And if it’s not, then you have a different problem.) Practice saying “no”. Just say it: “No, I can’t help you”. “No, I’m actually not familiar with that myself.” “No, I’m just getting the hang of this myself and don’t feel comfortable trying to teach it.” “No, I’m in the middle of something else right now.” Etc.

      Another approach would be more of a diversion tactic: “I’m sure you can figure this out yourself. Email me again once you’ve given it another couple of days.” “It’s actually not that hard. If you consult the documentation on the server, it’s all there.” “I’m going to let you handle this; you’ve generally been good about figuring out these kinds of things in the past.”

      Now, if you’re their manager or in some other supervisory or training type position, then this is obviously more complicated.

    3. Hapax Legomenon*

      Some ideas:
      1) Respond with “I don’t have any experience with that process yet myself. What have you tried so far?” Maybe let them know you’ll get back to them in a week, when you’ve had time to figure out the process.
      2) Create documentation for each new process, and then when someone asks for help, send it to them. If it takes you a week to get that stuff together, that would build in a less-artificial delay to them getting the information so they might have incentive to figure it out themselves. (Having training documentation that people use is also a really good way to have incontrovertible evidence of the help you’re providing to your coworkers, which might come in handy when asking for a raise or promotion.)
      3) If you have one particular coworker who wouldn’t mind walking others through it, you could show that one person, and direct all requests for help to them.
      4) If you don’t have that particular coworker, then the first person who asks you for help gets the “training,” and you direct all others to ask that person for help. Make them suffer instead! Muahaha!
      5) Ask your actual trainers to handle these requests, as they’re cutting into your productivity, and maybe people don’t realize you’re starting to resent the requests.

    4. Ama*

      I deal with this a bit in a different way — my department maintains contact info for some external groups we work with here, and while I am happy to send people a list of contact info if, say, it is part of a larger chain where we are discussing who in those groups should be asked to participate in a particular project, a couple of coworkers have developed a bad habit of using me as their personal address book, even though all of this info is available in the database that all employees have access to.

      When I can tell someone hasn’t even checked the database, I just reply and say “this person should be in the database, try there” as a way of reinforcing that first step is check the database, if for some reason the info is missing or incorrect THEN you can ask me for help. So if your colleagues are asking questions that you know is covered in the training materials, just say “I haven’t tried that yet myself, but I think it’s covered in the training documentation, check there.”

    5. Curmudgeon in California*

      “I’m sorry, I’m still learning the system myself. Can you give it a try and then share what you’ve learned with me? I’d really appreciate it. Thanks.”

      Yes, it’s flipping it back on them, but with the added incentive of them being “The person who figured it out!”

      1. Koala dreams*

        It can be really good for the work relationships to make an effort to ask for help in addition to helping others. I think your script is a very good example of that.

  39. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I am job-hunting and about to go from casually searching to looking HARD, and I need some resume help. I recently worked on a project that I am incredibly proud of, it is by far my greatest accomplishment in my role, and I’m not sure how to include it in a way that covers all of the bases. Here’s the deal (and if some of this sounds like boasting, I do not care one whit– I worked really hard on it!):

    – The business came in because of a connection I had (I didn’t solicit it, but they came to us because of their connection to me)
    – I designed and executed the project from start to finish with some input from senior executives, but I did all of the heavy lifting including managing the work of our internal teams
    – After we delivered the project to our client, they included it in a project of their own that got local press coverage and was picked up by several national news sources (we got lots of credit)– this is highly unusual for the work we do
    – I presented the findings at a major event for our industry in front of some very important people and got really positive feedback

    How would/should I list this on my resume? I imagine it should be the first bullet point, and I want it to sparkle.

    As a side note, I’m kicking the job search into high gear because while people outside of the company have been amazing with their feedback, I feel like this work is being completely ignored by my boss (who did not work on the project). There’s been a major feeling that I am being put back into my place and I freaking hate it. There were some great things that went on in my job in the last month or so, including the excitement around this project, but the reactions I’ve received internally have proven to me that there is no support for my growth here.

    1. Princess Scrivener*

      Something like this, maybe?
      — Designed and executed a project initiated with an external professional contact; presented findings at [major industry event], resulting in high-level, positive feedback; the delivered project garnered local / some national press coverage

    2. MB*

      – Designed, managed, and executed XYZ project, which received recognition from ABC, DEF, and GHI national media outlets
      – Presented findings derived from XYZ project at February 2020 Big Huge Deal Industry Symposium

      Your next employer sounds like they will be very lucky to land you!

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Oh, I will definitely name it! Unfortunately I’m not mentioned specifically in the press release, but there are some pieces that prove my direct connection with the project, including photos of my presentation that were featured in some publications.

      2. lurker :)*

        I had a friend suggest a “Recent accomplishments include:” bullet and then I could list and sub-bullet a few notable “wow” things. And I think that is really effective!

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I think this is one of those things where you name the project and main points on your resume. Then you go into greater detail in your cover letter (if applicable for the job) and definitely have this story ready in your interviews.

      Sans the boss/being put back in your place part though.

  40. in the file room*

    You know how people joke about how, when they work from home, their “coworker” meows constantly and begs for attention?

    My actual, human coworkers have taken to meowing at each other. As in, when my coworker wants to get my boss’ attention, he stand outside her office and says “Meow meow!”

    No, we do not work with animals even a little bit, and yes, I am job searching…

      2. A*

        Agreed. I could see my office meowing, and I could see some one bringing in a spritzer bottle. This would amuse me (but I can also see how it would be annoying to some)!

    5. whistle*

      I think your coworker have watched Super Troopers a few too many times. (Just kidding. You can’t watch Super Troopers too many times.)

    7. GoryDetails*

      I can see myself doing that at a previous workplace – but only once or twice, and purely for laughs. Anyone who repeatedly used “meow!” as a way to get my attention would be rewarded by having a kitty-treat or a curled-up pipecleaner lobbed at them. Heck, that’s what the cats usually want, right? (Again, this could be cute in some situations, possibly even as a running joke, but not as the default way of getting attention.)

    8. Emilitron*

      Okay, I confess. This would make me happy for at least the first week or so. As an ongoing thing that people never let it end, yes that would get irritating. As compared with workplaces where everybody’s on the best blandest behavior, it can be refreshing to have coworkers be cheerfully weird occasionally. I know it would get old. But this still makes me laugh.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I’m with you on this. Random meowing sounds delightfully absurd but would get old quickly if it never stopped.

        Side note: my husband and I meow at each other from time to time.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          Meow? Do you live at my house? We have several cats, plus very feline attuned roommates. “Meow?” is a very standard thing here.

          At work, though? With some people who are known cat people it would be cute. If it was everyone, it would become weird.

    11. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I would vastly prefer this to my (human) coworker, who has taken to making sighing noises that sound like an espresso machine or whistling depending on his mood. To be fair, his workload has taken a turn for the ridiculous due to factors beyond his control, but I’ve never heard someone make such a literal “letting off steam” noise before. (The additional workload is not something I or the rest of the staff could reasonably help him with – think of it like he’s in charge of the French-language support requests and I’m in charge of the Russian-language ones, although the specifics are quite different than that. The difference in our skill sets are about that deep and neither of us could pick up the other one’s job without years of training in a specific thing that we don’t know.)

    12. MOAS*

      My boss and I used to joke with each other “you stop that right meow!” Another coworker would mimic the water bottle spraying at a cat and I would pretend to enjoy it. But it was very occasional, and a fun way to let off steam.

  41. Feeling Blue*

    Another day, another rejection.

    I have been actively job searching since September and have received very few positive responses. I have had a handful of in person and phone interviews, but all have led to the same response: “We are going to pursue other candidates who appear to more closely match our requirements” or something like that. I am trying to switch industries and get out of the nonprofit world into pretty much anything else, but so far I am not getting anywhere.

    I am really struggling with my mental health right now and am currently doing all the right things. I’m in therapy, on medication, and making efforts to prioritize self-care. Unfortunately my anxiety and depression are almost overwhelming and the continued rejection/lack of response to my job search is also impacting my self esteem.

    I feel miserable at my current job, but truthfully I’m not 100% certain it’s all due to the job. I may be extra miserable because I’m waking up every day feeling anxious and depressed. I know I’m in a toxic environment, but my boss has been so flexible with all my doctor’s appointments and allowing me to come and go as needed. My husband wants me to ask about working from home from time to time, but I already receive a lot of special treatment and I’m not sure if I should risk asking for more.

    Does it make sense to keep searching, or should I put my search on hold until I start to feel better? I just don’t know what to do.

    1. J.B.*

      What does it hurt to ask for more right now. If working from home helps your sanity, by asking I think them saying no is the biggest risk. Sure they may judge you but if they’re that toxic to begin with, how much more will it be?

      1. Feeling Blue*

        Good point!

        My boss did offer to have me WFH when she is on vacation in a couple of weeks. I may see how I feel after doing that and come back and ask if I can work 1-2 days a week from home. I guess the worst that could happen is she could say no.

    2. Amy Sly*

      Oy. Been there, done that. Re: medication, if you’re still in an “I just can’t cope” mental state, you may need to tweak your dosage or add a supplement. I just had to do this myself after several years on the same medicine and dose.

      It’s okay to take breaks or just periods of less activity from job searching. Maybe all you do is scan LinkedIn or Ziprecruiter a couple days a week and use their quick apply/one button apply tools for the best looking one or two openings. Little effort on the front end means little investment and little disappointment. Do it long enough, and you may even get the occasional “I don’t even remember applying to you” request for an interview.

      Obviously, use Alison’s resume and cover letter guides to correct any mistakes that might be hurting you on that front. I’m currently doing a low intensity job search myself, and I’ve been floored how much better I’m doing in getting responses than in previous searches.

    3. Hapax Legomenon*

      Job hunting can be a full-time job unto itself. If the job hunt itself is exhausting and depressing you and you think that it’s taking a toll on your mental health, give yourself permission to take a vacation from job hunting. Take a few weeks off, and if it helps, maybe you conduct your job search on a smaller scale. Better to put more time and effort into two or three cover letters than do ten slapdash ones, right? Do just enough to feel like you’re keeping your job hunt skills honed, or like you are still working towards getting out of your job, and try to remember that the rejection/lack of response is not about you–those people don’t even know you and they might well have only posted the job because they’re required to when really Linda in Marketing is getting the job.

    4. WearingManyHats*

      Take a break! I’m in a similar boat and have been a finalist in several amazing positions that ended up going to someone else after lots of interviews. I took a week off, responded to a staffing agency, and have a phone interview with one company I applied to and an in person with someone through the agency next week! Maybe everything will fall through again, but I am trying not to think about that.

      My psychiatrist also encouraged me to keep up with a journal, which is less tiresome (to me and others) than venting on the internet. Sure I have a book of me complaining about the same problems over and over again, but that helps me to see that the issue isn’t me, but my brain chemistry. <3

  42. Pregnant Again*

    I’m 9 weeks pregnant with my second child. I’m a pretty private person and we have a substantial contingent in our ~25 person office who are incredibly nosy and pushy about private lives so I didn’t discuss it at work except to notify my supervisor at the time when I was about 4-5 months pregnant and of course HR. I’m also a bit older and had had a miscarriage the year before that I’d had to take time off for a DNC so I really didn’t want to talk about it in the office. I almost never work with anyone in my physical office due to the nature of my work so I just don’t feel obligated to bring it up this time at all. But I’m wondering if this is really a substantial faux pas. I’ve already let my new supervisor know on this one since she needed that (this one is really much harder plus there’s already a complication) and soon I’ll have to start letting other project team staff know probably (all remote), but I have no interest in talking to people who can’t keep their mouths shut or mind their own business. Hive thoughts?

    1. J.B.*

      Congratulations! I’m sorry about the DNC and the pregnancy after can definitely feel very ambivalent. You don’t need to let anyone know, especially in the first trimester. Politically, letting someone decent know early second trimester and letting that person slowly spread the news wouldn’t hurt.

      Take care of yourself.

    2. Grace*

      I have never been pregnant so I can’t speak from experience, but I worked in a similar size office and had a coworker who was pregnant 3x while I was there. Each time she pretty much told her supervisor immediately, but held off on telling others until she was further along. I think she waited until she was showing (which was around 4-5 months).

      We worked in event planning and one time her due date happened to be right in the midst of our big annual event. She still waited to tell people until 4+ months and it ended up being okay, and everyone had plenty of time to work on a plan for while she was out.

      1. Pregnant Again*

        In this case everyone who actually works on my project teams and client teams will know at the right times (including my clients), but none of those people are actually in my office. My absence will affect literally nothing in my physical location (I currently don’t have any local direct reports). I was job searching before this but then surprise, #2 was a lot easier to create than #1! But that’s another problem altogether…. I honestly didn’t plan on saying anything even when I was showing. I’m not going to lie about it but it’s just not their business and they generally have NO boundaries.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t see why you have to tell people soon. Let them learn when they see the new photo during a video call.

    3. Frankie*

      Congratulations! No need to tell anyone until you’re ready and/or it’s obvious. 9 weeks is not that far in.

      1. Pregnant Again*

        I should emphasize that I’m not taking about being concerned about saying anything now or soon. I don’t want to say anything at all, ever.

        1. CheeryO*

          I just don’t think this is realistic. It’ll become obvious at some point, and it would be very odd to not acknowledge it in any way.

        2. Joielle*

          I dunno, I feel like you’ll want to say SOMETHING eventually or it’ll just be even more gossip. I’m imagining gossip over whether you’re pregnant, or gaining weight, or have a medical issue… then someone eventually asking you directly if you’re pregnant, you admit it, then a whole other wave of gossip about why you didn’t say anything about it… it’s just so unusual to ignore it completely at work that I think an already-gossipy group will have a field day.

          You don’t have to, of course, if it doesn’t affect any of them. But if you’re trying to avoid gossip, I think acknowledging it at some point might just be easier.

        3. Chloe*

          Oof. Anywhere I’ve ever worked, that would seem incredibly weird and get you gossiped about a lot more than a standard pregnancy announcement ever could! You’d be the weirdo who never mentioned their pregnancy for YEARS. It would be the thing everyone knew about you. People outside the company would know. And those weren’t even particularly gossipy office cultures, this would just be such a weird thing to do that everyone would talk about it.

          So in your position, I’d make a very basic, boring “I’m pregnant, due in (month) and will be out for (x time).” statement. And then leave it at that. Sure, people might talk. But they’ll do that either way.

    4. Natalie*

      Not at all! 9 weeks is still really early – that’s when we told my parents, FFS. I told my immediate team around 12-13 weeks and genuinely wondered if *I* was making a faux pas by telling them too early for work. (But we’re a pretty close team and they don’t seem to have the deficits of the people you’re discussing.) Other coworkers didn’t find out until I was into the “physically obvious that person is pregnant” stage, months later.

      You’re fine, try not to worry too much about it.

        1. Natalie*

          Ah. I mean, honestly, that is pretty unusual. Being unusual generally exacerbates gossip rather than helping you avoid it.

          I don’t think you need to make a point to make an announcement or whatever if you don’t want to, but I would probably just mention it whenever it comes up naturally. If that’s never, so be it.

    5. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Congratulations, and best wishes for a very boring pregnancy.

      I think you’re fine. It is awful to become public property when pregnant, and it’s long and tense enough after a loss without getting everyone else’s Opinions all the time. Nobody else’s business unless they’re making work accommodations (eg arranging cover, authorising time off for antenatal appointments, etc).

      I told people about each pregnancy later and later – I think in the last I was 7m when some people caught on, as the weather suddenly changed and with it my wardrobe. There was a moment of “WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?!” but that was it.

      Captain Awkward is good on this kind of topic, but I know she maintains that people who aren’t going to be respectful of your business don’t get told about it. That might be a useful way to think about it.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          That’s a good point. I guess I’m trying to say that for almost everybody (eg your reporting line excepted) your pregnancy isn’t a business event.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      Congratulations!

      It is not a faux pas. It’s totally normal not to announce until 3+ months, and not weird to delay until 4 – 5 months. By 6, if you’re obviously showing, it could get a little awkward, but no one other than your boss really needs to know until month 9.

      1. Pregnant Again*

        That’s my point. I don’t intend to tell them then either though of course it will be obvious. This won’t affect any of them in any way.

    7. I edit everything*

      I didn’t say anything at all to most people in my office when I was pregnant. I told my boss and HR, and that was it (maybe one other person?). After a while, of course, people could tell, but I didn’t actively spread the news. It was fine. *BUT* my office was the opposite of yours–people barely spoke to anyone outside their teams, and I was on a very small, obscure team. If there was any gossip, I was well outside the loop.

      If it doesn’t affect them, don’t say anything.

    8. JustAnotherPregnantLady*

      I think not saying anything at all will just make them more nosy and gossip more. I doubt there’s a professional reason not to tell them, but have you considered just mentioning your upcoming maternity leave, then giving the bare minimum of details “We’re expecting the new baby on July 2, and we’re very excited”, then move on. But wait as long as you can to mention it. Nothing you do can stop then from prying. The best you can do is make it as uninteresting as possible.

    9. Fellow Traveler*

      I didn’t tell anyone about my third pregnancy until after the baby was born- of course I am seasonally employed so by the time I finished one season of work, I was six months pregnant and no one knew, and then I was off for my last trimester. I did tell my boss when work started up again, but I had to tell her because I needed a place to pump and I wanted to work from home a little bit. i can’t remember how, but a couple people did find out when I came back to work, and they were generally very nice and respectful about it- they said “Congratulations!” and then moved on. I think they knew that since I hadn’t made an announcement before the summer break, this was something I was hoping to be private about. I feel like you don’t need to make your pregnancy public fodder but you can’t control whether or not people will speculate – I know some folks wondered privately if I had been pregnant. I think you just have to decide if you care enough about what other people think that you want to control the narrative a little by saying something. Or, if, on the other hand, you really don’t care what other people think, and are ok letting them idly speculate, knowing that it doesn’t effect them one way or the other, and only the very rude will actually say something to you.

    10. Epsilon Delta*

      I’m sorry for your loss.

      I don’t think you have an obligation to “announce” it to the whole office, but you will definitely have to tell people you work with that you’ll be on leave. And after a certain point it will be super weird to deny/avoid mentioning it’s a pregnancy, but I don’t think you’re obligated to proactively announce it to people who you don’t otherwise work with.

      If there’s a culture of doing baby showers or whatever and you don’t want that, let the person who organizes them know.

    11. Dr. Doll*

      Just say you need to take time off for health reasons? You can’t disappear for more than a couple of days without a word and expect no one to even raise an eyebrow.

    12. BethDH*

      I had a pregnancy relatively early in a new job and didn’t want to be “the pregnant one” so avoided talking about it. I did tell my supervisor, but only let other people know a few at a time as something relevant came up. By inserting it into conversation where we were quickly turning to other things I avoided having it become a focus of conversation. I made sure to be ready with other conversation topics too, and I avoided having to leave work for appointments in an obvious way (did them at lunchtime, before work, etc).

    13. FutureRetiredPerson*

      I was in a very similar situation when I was pregnant with my second child. I just didn’t talk about it; I told the people I had to tell, and everyone else was left to figure it out in their own ways. One co-worker, a person I didn’t see often, came into my office when I was 8 months along and shrieked, “YOU’RE PREGNANT!!!” (I said, “I know.”) But most people rolled with it. If there were secret conversations about me, they didn’t affect me.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Same. I had to tell my immediate team because we were doing some work that required all of us present multiple times a month and I was going to be out for 4+ months. Had to tell my manager for planning reasons. Pretty much just let the internal information network spread the news, I don’t remember making a point of mentioning it to most other people.

        To be honest, I think if you just tell the few people you need to for work purposes, most others will take your lead and not mention it. I never told people I didn’t work with directly, either. Since you don’t work with any of the local people in your office, I think you can be pretty deflective if anyone gets gossipy about you once they notice your condition. Maybe lean into the assumed fatigue of pregnancy and keep any potential conversations short by saying you’re fine but need to focus your limited energy on work.

  43. LeahS*

    Marketing and Sales Coordinator here in manufacturing. First time taking on trade show planning. Any tips? I feel like my head is going to explode with all of the different action items coming from so many different directions!

    1. 867-5309*

      Keep an Excel grid with columns for categories (booth design, staffing, materials, etc.), action items, owner, due date and status. Use it religiously. Set up regularly meetings with the appropriate people and use the grid as an agenda guide. Status should be color coded – I like red for past due, yellow for at-risk or slightly behind, green for on target and grayed out when complete.

      I also create detailed check lists for the week before and during the show in Word doc that I physically print. Then I can go through and make sure each task is completed. Day of activities include turn on lights, put out brochures, etc.

    2. Trade Show Joesephine*

      Trade show planning can be super exciting and super stressful!!! If you get stuck on any piece of the planning, usually the trade show has a number you can call and they’ll walk you through the information they need. I often had to use their expertise when planning out booth electricity needs and placement.

      its like planning a thanksgiving dinner where you need to start prepping and cooking at different times and temperatures, but it all needs to get to the table at the same time. Get yourself a good spreadsheet to keep track of everything.

      When you go To the trade show make sure you have printouts of everything, just in case.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Check in the exhibitors section of the show website, If its a bigger show, the show often provides a bunch of planning resources with a timeline of when you need to do things.
      Otherwise, it’s like other project planning. Work backwards from the show date to determine when you need things done.

  44. Crazy Broke Asian*

    I got a call on Monday regarding a position I applied to. The person calling said she wanted to schedule an interview, and asked me if I was still working full time. I said yes, in fact I was at the office. She asked me what time do I clock out, and I said at 6. She then became quiet and said okay, thank you and ended the call.

    Should I call back? Is it too late? I initially assumed she’d call back the next day, or at least send an email, but so far I haven’t heard anything. I’m pretty interested in the role, otherwise I’d let it go.

    The number’s legit, by the way. I checked. I also logged in to the job portal where I applied. It said that my application status was being processed by the company.

    1. WellRed*

      Sounds like an inexperienced person contacted you. I don’t think it would hurt to follow up?

      To avoid in the future, I’d say “I typically get out at 6, but am flexible to set up a time to talk about this job.”

      1. Someone bored*

        I am bored (not with too little work, because I have too much but it is a grind and dull) and I know I need a change. The problem is I am not willing to take a pay cut or switch to worse benefits and I might be at the top of my pay scale. I am looking internally and externally, but I am not sure what else to do to get some degree of satisfaction in my work. Is this a wait it out and maybe things will change or a take a vacation and see how you feel when you come back thing?

        Added complication: if I stay with my current company, I finally earn an additional week of vacation…

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          When you say you (finally) earn an extra week of vacation if you stay, can you clarify what you mean by this? Like you hit a certain tenure with your current company and your pto benefits go up? Honest question, is that worth staying? When you say you “finally” earn an additional week of vacation, it makes me think you aren’t getting a lot of vacation to begin with, so I’m not sure that’s really a staying point, since you can probably get better PTO somewhere else.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agreed, this sounds like someone who doesn’t really know how to hire (or schedule a call. Who calls over emailing to schedule something…?).

        So, yes, do follow-up and have ready a list of days/times.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          I should have added, phone number spoofing (I can’t explain it well, so please do a quick internet search if needed) is a thing, so it’s possible that the number was legitimate, but the actual original caller wasn’t actually calling from that number.

  45. Giant Squid*

    I’m pretty new to my career (3 years since graduating), and I just don’t feel as motivated as I used to. I actually think I was more productive as a (paid) intern than I am now, but I don’t know why. I’ve wondered about mental health, lack of sleep, less pressure, not being followed as closely. I’ve always worked as a software engineer on various small teams, so there’s not a lot of immediate oversight.

    I think that might be the biggest part of it–I work very well when I’m closely supervised (emergencies and “fires”), when people expect things by tight deadlines I can work magic. But when I’m given a project that would be a business value addition, it’s harder to summon the motivation. It just feels like I suck.

    Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing?

    1. Jessica*

      I’m a very extrinsically-motivated person as well. First, that’s perfectly okay! (See Gretchen Rubin’s “The Four Tendencies.” I’m definitely an “Obliger,” meaning I do best when I’m accountable to someone else.)

      Second, things that have helped me include creating tangible things (like a spreadsheet where I keep track of my changes) and discussing what I’m doing with my supervisor. I discuss projects with her and when she expects them to be done, and take it upon myself to report on my progress and set completion goals.

      My main point is that you can create accountability for yourself even if it’s not initially given to you, and you’re not weird for wanting it.

      1. Giant Squid*

        That describes me ridiculously well! I’m definitely an obliger and people pleaser. I think I need to get a better handle on my projects, for one…I have a lot that have just kind of scoped creep from wanting to help out coworkers (my boss is okay with this and supports this in general)…so there are a bunch of people I could be helping, and feel bad for disappointing, but I can’t help them all.

        I think deadlines will be good too. Right now I only have one hard deadline that’s months away, and one vague statement I made in our weekly meeting.

    2. Mrs. Burt Wonderstone*

      I feel like this somewhat often. I do well with tasks, but with projects I sometimes get overwhelmed and then procrastinate on getting started, and then get mad at myself when I have to rush to complete.

      To combat this, I try to assign myself a final completion date, especially if it’s open-ended from my manager, and then break the project down into task-based deliverables with their own smaller deadlines.

      That way, I have things that I can physically cross off a to-do list while simultaneously making progress on the overall project.

      Do you think this could be a possible approach for you to try?

      1. Giant Squid*

        Yes, that’s something I can and should do. Sometimes I feel like a garbage perfectionist–I have this fantastic plan from the start on how I’m going to do something and everybody’s going to love it and be incredibly happy. When I actually do get a deadline set, I’m still overambitious, and I have to keep cutting scope down until I accomplish the core need…and there tends to be quality issues. Nothing glaring, but embarrassing typos in software menus, etc.

        There’s a video game designer “Peter Molyneux” who’s notorious for this. I think I’m starting to understand a character flaw in myself.

        1. Giant Squid*

          My mind is kind of swimming, so that last part might not have made too much sense. Anyway, “Peter Molyneux” used to be known for announcing and hyping incredibly ambitious games with tons of unique features. The games that he actually released were still pretty cool, but had quality issues and didn’t have half of the features he hyped.

          I learned a lot time ago not to make promises, but I still get overambitious with things *I* would like the software to have, but that aren’t really necessary for my (internal) customers.

          1. pamplemousse*

            I think this is super common, super normal, and 3 years into your career is about the right place for it to hit. Do you have a good relationship with your manager where you can talk about how to prioritize some of these bigger projects or set intermediate deadlines? Or even a peer you could work with to hold yourself accountable.

            Also… while many people struggle with this kind of thing at work without it rising to a diagnosable level… please, please look into adult ADHD, just in case. A lot of this (the big plans at the start, the inattention to detail, struggling with getting started or executing on bigger projects and ideas, the fact that you’re great under pressure/in a fire alarm situation) sounds very familiar! I was diagnosed and medicated at age 28 and it changed my life and the trajectory of my career. (If you look it up and think “hm, well, a lot of this sounds like me but I’m clearly just a lazy person looking for excuses for being garbage,” shut that voice down and talk to a medical professional anyway.)

            1. Giant Squid*

              I’ve often thought I might have ADHD, but whenever I test for it I end up scoring way less ADHD than average. But, that’s all dependent on my own assessment of my focus. I was professionally tested by a psychiatrist at around 13-14. I’ll also say that I always did pretty well in school, though I’m definitely sensitive to noise and have a slight tendency to procrastinate. I’m just kind of comparing myself to peers with ADHD.

              Oddly, I think I may have found part of the problem. I’ve taken caffeine pills for a long time, and it looks like my current batch wasn’t working. So I found some of my old brand, and I’ve had a very productive afternoon. I’ve heard that high doses of caffeine can be sort of effective for ADHD (if adderall isn’t an option). Or maybe I just have a dependency on caffeine.

        2. Sleve McDichael*

          So you kind of sound more like an ideas person than a perfectionist to me. You have all these ideas that would make a project great, wonderful, exciting, perfect! But when it comes time to implement you only have the time, skills and brainspace to implement some of the ideas. And that’s disappointing! But it’s not quite perfectionism. Being an IDEAS person can be a symptom of ADD but it is also just how some people’s brains work. I made some mistakes at my first job by throwing out a lot of my ideas for other people to do. Luckily my grandboss shut me down and taught me to only suggest things I had an actual plan for and not to over promise and under deliver. It’s a real brain change, but if that sounds like you I’d recommend working on it with your IDEAS personality in mind. I hope that helps.

    3. emmelemm*

      Absolutely. If there’s a hard deadline, I can work to it (even if that means doing it at the last minute). But when it’s “yeah, kind of develop this thing that is sort of an improvement, because why not” leads me to just lose all motivation. Not even that I don’t agree it’s a good or worthy project, just… slacking off is more inviting.

  46. Jessica*

    I’m an attorney who’s always worked in-house. I was an intern for one company, and then an attorney for them, and have 3.5 years of experience in my current position. I’m applying for other in-house jobs and I’m waffling on whether or not to put my grant experience down on my resume-to keep it at one page, I would have to drop off an internship I did during law school (5 lines) , or cut back on the accomplishments/awards sections of my college (4 lines) and law school (4 lines). (Maybe I should just omit the college honors/awards altogether, since I graduated in 2012?)

    The grant resulted in $20,000 being given to a local nonprofit. I am on the grant team and have been doing project management work with them for about 1.5 years. I also assembled our entire 20-page grant from pieces that other team members wrote, and cleaned up the whole thing. My work is regularly used as a template for other nonprofits who applied for the grant and are going through the process together.

    To me this sounds relatively impressive, but it’s not as tailored to the positions I’m applying for as the internship, even though I did lower level work (like research and writing memos) at the internship. Project management and grant writing aren’t aspects of any of the jobs I’m looking at, but if I put it down one of the heads of the nonprofit could be used as a reference for me. What would you do?

    1. blink14*

      I would lose the college honors list, unless there’s something really prestigious in your line of work that relates. The grant work, in my opinion, would expand on what other skills you have that could be applicable to a job, and also shows initiative.

      1. Jessica*

        Thanks! Do you think that it would look unbalanced if I simply listed my college, date of graduation, major, senior thesis (for which I won an award at a presentation competition)? In my law school section I have mock trial competitions and student activities.

        1. blink14*

          If this resume is for in house jobs only, I think you could make the college information very basic, and include the law school items that you feel are really relevant. You have a track record at the company already, and the student related information is old enough at this point that it probably would be overshadowed by your experience in your current position already. If you go on to apply for outside jobs, you could tweak what you include based on where you are applying, or by including something from your college and law school days that would really stand out.

          Either way, I think the grant information would round out your skill set on paper and may really stand out against other resumes.

          1. Jessica*

            I appreciate the feedback! I think for some reason I have it stuck in my head that everything needs to be “symmetrical.” As in, three bulletpoints for duties at each position, the same type/amount of accomplishments/awards listed for college and law school, etc. I’m not sure when I became married to this rule but I have an aversion to making my resume seem unbalanced in some way.

            1. blink14*

              I know the feeling! Maybe write a draft with those symmetrical rules, and then go back to it the next day and mark the items that feel the most important, relevant, and make a new draft cutting out anything that seems not as important and adding in anything you feel like you’ve missed. Removing some items that are older makes room for new, more important items.

      1. Jessica*

        Moot court competitions in which I did well, leadership in a student association (not moot court or law review, but relevant to the kind of jobs I want), and a research project that I did for class credit but was presented to a global organization.

          1. Jessica*

            It was 5-8 years ago, but this also reminds me of something that may or may not be a factor: I’m relying on the professor for whom I did all this work as a reference. Would I need to leave some of it in for that?

            1. CatCat*

              I don’t see why you would have to do that to use the reference. You can still list the prof as a reference even if that particular job isn’t highlighted on the resume.

              If there’s no application you have to fill out listing all jobs or something, you could include the info on the relationship with the reference list.

          2. CatCat*

            Yeah, I agree with this. Last time I was looking for a job, I was 6 years out of law school. Looking at my version of my resume from then, I have class rank and that’s it.

      1. Amy Sly*

        As Alison has noted, it’s okay for a resume to go to two pages. Mine now has all my work experience on one page, with education and skills sections on the second. For undergrad, I have college name, degrees, dates, and the fact that I obtained a grant for international original research, for a total of three lines. Law School, much the same, with my thesis title* and one academic award; this time, four lines.

        1. Amy Sly*

          *I’ve debated whether this is a good idea; so far, at least, no one who’s interviewed me has connected “Legal Issues of Virtual Currency Transactions” with “World of Warcraft junkie,” but I obviously don’t know how many folks make that connection and ghost me because of it.

        2. Jessica*

          Do you think it’s okay for someone with so little experience to go to two pages? Aside from the internship, I have only a research assistant job for a professor, the two jobs at this company, and the grant experience as “professional” experience. I guess I worry if it will be seen as presumptuous for someone who graduated law school in 2015 to go onto that second page.

          1. Amy Sly*

            From your comments above, I’d suggest going back through each job and verify that every detail listed is solid accomplishment focused language and relevant, and that every solid and relevant accomplishment is listed. Don’t worry about every job having exactly three bullet points that take up one line each; you’re going for lawyer jobs, not graphic design ones. :) In my case, the contract admin, doc review, and bank recovery jobs have 4, while the appraisal quality control one has three. And for previous resumes where I still had non-white collar jobs and law school internships on there, I would just list the job position and dates to demonstrate that I didn’t have a large employment gap and that there was another person they could call as a reference.

            Doing that, you may find that you fill up those two pages, or that some of the details of your internships are irrelevant and that you can get by with one.

    4. Another JD*

      Drop the college honors/awards and law school activities in favor of space for job-related entries unless there’s something prestigious that relates to your field or that you’re still involved in. The grant work is more recent and more important.

      The number of lines you use can matter – if you spent 5 lines of a 1-page resume telling me about your internship from 10 years ago, but only 3 from your current job, I’d wonder about your priorities.

    5. CheeryO*

      Fellow 2012 grad… definitely drop the college awards, sorry. I feel you – I finally took my full college scholarship off my resume, and it felt weird since it was THE thing that I used to define my intelligence by for a long, long time. Realistically, it will not bear any weight compared to your actual work experience.

      1. Jessica*

        Thanks for the feedback. :) I think that part of me knew that it was time, but it feels so strange for the reasons you articulated. No one cares that I was considered Especially Smart in high school and college anymore.

    6. Legally a Vacuum*

      I’m in house- going on 10 years now at 2 different companies. At my current company, project management experience on a legal resume would actually be really well received. College honors/awards outside something like Phi Beta Kappa aren’t worth keeping ime.

  47. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    I had a little professional victory over myself this week! I usually get so anxious about pulling for student participation in the one-shot classes I teach, especially if they’re coming in looking totally bored. There have been some activities that I’ve had prepared for ages, but haven’t dared to use because I was too scared (and I don’t teach that often, so if I miss my chance…it’s another 6 months before I can try again a lot of the time). But I pushed through this class, and the students ended up getting very engaged, talking to each other and speaking up in class, *and* I think the exercise I had them doing actually worked for helping them learn, too!
    Like a lot of librarians, I had minimal training in teaching, so it’s all learning on the fly through trial and error

      1. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

        I’ve realized a lot of undergraduate students can comprehend “put keywords in the database and use database filters to narrow results to a manageable number,” but what is completely overwhelming is actually deciding what articles are useful; scholarly article titles tend to be so jargon-heavy, and are usually framed in a different way than students think and when there are a lot of them…I sat with too many students who were just anxiously scrolling up and down a results page not actually looking closely at any of the reasonably good options that were coming up. Relevance judgements are hard.

        The exercise I did was: Beforehand, I created a sample topic and did some searches on it in our databases to find a range of article titles that come up. And I made a worksheet, selecting titles that ranged from clearly on topic to clearly off topic (like, when searching “standardized testing,” articles may come up referring to standardizing medical tests for patients), and several in between.
        I gave students a few minutes to work by themselves and in pairs to judge where those articles fell on a range of probably relevant–maybe relevant–probably not relevant, and then whether the article was exactly on topic, broader than the topic, narrower than the topic, or tangential to the topic.
        I emphasized that there are multiple right answers for any given article, and not to overthink. I also noted that on the worksheet, they weren’t seeing the abstract–but if an article was maybe/probably relevant, that meant it was worth looking at the abstract and article itself.

        1. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

          The formatting will change in the comment of course, but the worksheet was approximately a set of 10-ish examples like this, with the sample topic and search terms listed at the top:

          Article Title: The Effect of Using Alternative Assessment Activities on Students’ Success And Attitudes
          Journal: Educational Sciences: Theory and Practice
          This Result Is: __Probably Relevant __Maybe Relevant __Probably Not Relevant
          Is This Result…?
          __Exactly On topic
          __Broader than the topic
          __Narrower than the topic
          __Tangential to the topic, or related but from a different perspective

        2. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

          After the class, one student wanted to get started working on her research right away, with me within reach to occasionally point out when there might be a better way or a more in-depth tool to use, and I noticed she was really reading through the search results in a much more thorough way than I’ve seen students usually do!

  48. Sharkie*

    I presented a huge idea of mine to the leadership team and they loved it! They are going to make room in the budget and look at next steps. I am kinda nervous because my boss isn’t here today and he has no idea I did this -It wasn’t planned it came from an organic conversation and the rest of the team pressed for more details. I am kinda happy it happened this way because my boss would have shot it down but I might have started a politic war accidentally.

    1. OtterB*

      I would make a point of telling your boss as soon as feasible so they don’t learn about it randomly. I’d send an email, but it depends on your office, I think; it might work better to fill him in when he gets back. Tell the boss what you said here, that it came up organically during a conversation about X, the leadership team asked for more details and seems excited about it. Don’t be apologetic; you’re just matter-of-factly making sure he’s informed about something important that happened while he was out. If you’re aware of some particular reason the boss would have shot it down and there’s some validity to the reason (even if you disagree), you could say, “I realize there may be some issues working this around XYZ,” but you don’t have to start that conversation if you don’t want to.

  49. MsManager*

    I have been waiting all morning for this, and of course missed it when it opened. So probably no one will see this, but I have to vent.

    I work in a remote office, I am the only one here. My bathroom is being remodeled and is unusable for two weeks. The nearest other bathroom is a fast food place about 5 miles away. Or a portapotty at a construction site half a mile away.

    I want to work from home until the bathroom is fixed, which is something that can be easily done. I live close enough that I can quickly come to the office if I had to meet someone or get something. I think it’s unreasonable to have to drive five miles each way every time I have to pee, which is often. And we all know that sometimes bathroom visits take longer than you want them to, and it’s awkward to be holed up in a McDonald’s restroom for ten minutes.

    My boss disagrees. But he’s a man who can pee in a bush if he needs to. This is a matter of basic dignity as far as I am concerned.

    1. MB*

      Can you escalate this issue to HR? Your boss is completely wrong about this. Having access to a bathroom is a pretty basic sanitary standard.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, this. And don’t ask. Inform. “Until we have a bathroom on-site that meets OSHA standards, I’m going to be working at home.”

        1. SweetestCin*

          I’ve used that exact script before, no questions were asked. (We were switching from porta-potties at a jobsite to semi permanent trailer city type – and the portas were removed before the trailer city was installed so…no facitilies at all for a week. Nope.)

      1. MsManager*

        I’m a property manager. If a resident came to my office and I wasn’t there, or if there was an emergency onsite and the home office was notified before me, or if my boss happened to stop by, he’d know.

        But you’re right – there’s a 90% chance he would never know.

        I see now my mistake was in asking, rather than just saying nothing unless he noticed I was working from home, then tell him “oh, because the bathrooms aren’t available.”.

        1. SomebodyElse*

          This may be a silly question, but if your a property manager are there other bathrooms you could use in unoccupied spaces/apartments until the construction is done?

          2. Mr. Shark*

            That would be my question. If you’re a property manager, there are typically apartments available.
            And I agree with the ideas below…you should’ve just told him what was going to happen. But now, I would approach it like you mention.
            “It’s not feasible to me to not have a restroom available or to have to drive 5 miles to get to a restroom. I think working from home and being available to be here as necessary is the only reasonable solution.”

        2. Imtheone*

          No bathroom being available has to be a violation of legal standards for a safe workplace. I don’t have the reference, but maybe someone can find it. That would back you up.

        3. Close Bracket*

          just saying nothing unless he noticed I was working from home, then tell him “oh, because the bathrooms aren’t available.”.

          That would also be a mistake. I would have advised informing him, “I’m going to plan on working from home until a bathroom is available onsite again.”

          Even dude’s require more than a bush sometimes, and using a bush counts as public urination, which you can get arrested for. What exactly is he doing?

        4. Also in Property Management*

          Please don’t just work from home and say nothing unless he notices you are not there. I also work for a property management company and this would be a huge deal. Depending on your company and your past performance it could be a reason you could lose your job.
          Offices need to be open for tenants and your boss would find out.
          (That said, they should be able to get you a port a potty or figure something out for a bathroom fix)

      1. NJBi*

        Was about to say, wasn’t there another column where this was underscored as an OSHA violation? Could you mention it to your boss as, “Hey, sorry to bring this up, but I found out that actually we could get in huge legal trouble with OSHA for having me work at a site without a restroom. I’d be happy to work from home to make sure we’re not violating regulations?”

        1. valentine*

          Be sure OSHA doesn’t approve of the construction site’s portable facility, either. Is it even related? I would never treat one like a public bathroom just because it’s physically public.

          1. CheeryO*

            I doubt that would be considered a public restroom. Typically those end up locked if randos use them.

            1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

              However, it’s possible they’d decide to solve the problem by renting a portable toilet for you to use, which may or may not meet your own standards for what you’re willing to put up with as a solution.

              (This has happened at my job a couple of times, where rather than closing the office for a plumbing issue they rented a portapotty until the issue was fixed. Nope! I select music events to attend on the basis of Having Real Toilets and I’m really not willing to work someplace without them either. Fortunately, my boss was understanding about those of us who preferred to take our restroom breaks offsite instead, or work from home, on those days. There’s a public park with Real Toilets a block or two away, so there were somewhat-reasonable options available.)

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          This + the tell, don’t ask unreasonable boss strategy. “I just found out that it’s a problem under state reg ___ and OSHA reg ___ to work without an on site bathroom. I’m going to work at home until the bathroom is available, to avoid any legal liability for the company. I put up a sign in the resident office with my email and phone number for residents to contact while I’m working off site.”

    4. Curmudgeon in California*

      Boy, and I thought it was bad when I had to go next door because they wouldn’t take the very toxic fragrance out of the restroom. Driving five miles to pee is ridiculous. Doing it to poop is worse.

      I would give my boss a choice – I either get to work from home, or he gets a porta-potty near the office (a half mile away on a construction site is not near the office.)

      IANAL, but I think the law requires adequate bathroom facilities at all job sites. Any H&S people want to chime in on this?

    5. NoLongerStuckInRetailHell*

      Wait a minute, is the construction site with the porta potty owned by your company? If not it is not a public bathroom like one in a park! It is for their workers—you using it would be no different than just walking into some random business and using the employees private restroom. In fact, the one at the fast food place is technically for customers and not actually for the general public to use (although most places don’t have a problem with it unless it’s being abused). You really need to stand your ground that this is not acceptable.

  50. MB*

    No question here, but I got an offer to return to my old employer so that I can assume my boss’ position in the near term! I had to take a slight pay cut to do it, but I was overpaid anyway and will still make considerably more than I was when I last worked there. I’m really excited about this because it presents me with a nice path forward for my career that isn’t made widely available, and I get to work with my old boss again, with whom I click incredibly well. Gonna do a little celebrating this weekend :)

    2. Imtheone*

      No bathroom being available has to be a violation of legal standards for a safe workplace. I don’t have the reference, but maybe someone can find it. That would back you up.

  51. Aggretsuko*

    I’m just gripey.

    We are SO short staffed. We had three temps. Two of which just got hired away and the third temp quit because working here is too haaaard. Then a fourth coworker announced her retirement. A fifth one is out until mid-March taking over childcare of her grandchildren. And the sixth one applied for our most open recent position, so we’re STILL SHORT STAFFED. (I am really mad that my favorite temp, who got moved to a different area, did not get the job.) I am so angry at that last one. And then the SuperBigBoss said our org is like a billion dollars in debt so we’re going to get budget cut and probably have layoffs.

    I also don’t want to have to take over doing all of the very hard shit my retiring coworker does (she says they need to hire two to replace her), but I have no choice there. I was told they WILL hire two more people no matter what and one of them will be before she retires, but I don’t trust this place worth a damn.

    Kill me now.

    However, as a clerical worker who can’t deal with finances or call center work, I literally have no other job options.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      good luck… maybe look at it as job security? Make sure you know what you can get away with not doing.

    2. Juneybug*

      The admins for state government agencies do not work call centers or deal with finances so look into city/county/state jobs.

  52. RestResetRule*

    So. I love my new job, it is very flexible in terms of work hours, I have a laptop and my boss pretty much lets me work anywhere I want, you get the idea. Basically the stuff of rainbows and unicorns.

    There’s just one issue: My boss never has enough work for me.

    She says things will get busier soon, and I guess it’s a blessing to ease in slowly BUT I am one of those people who want to work when I’m at work. I try to keep myself occupied but most of my day these last few weeks is brainstorming and browsing the internet. Every time I ask my boss for more work, she says what I’m doing is just fine and there will be more soon. That’s all hunky dory except I get bored easily.

    Any tips on how to keep myself occupied until things do get busier? I don’t want to seem ungrateful because I love my new workplace and team, I just want to stay busy and not feel like a butt in a chair.

    1. NaoNao*

      Classes! There’s quite a few free or very inexpensive classes and webinars you can take, take advantage of those.

    2. Princesa Zelda*

      Are you me? I’m having this exact problem! I’ve been watching web tutorials but I’m bored *and* I’m antsy about being unproductive.

  53. Jack Be Nimble*

    Rant time!

    A notoriously opaque department just reached out to me, asking for help on a new project. It’ll be a fairly minimal time investment for me (I’ll mostly be sharing documents and leading a few calls which will include other members of our team and the other team) and a great chance to build relationships within the department, which will greatly ease any future collaboration. Everyone (including my grandboss!) is really excited about this chance, but my immediate supervisor is dead-set against it.

    She finally admitted that she doesn’t want to do it because it’ll mean getting up early to participate in calls, as the other department works out of a different time zone. SERIOUSLY?

    1. irene adler*

      Talk about minimal investment required to improve relations with other teams!

      So just hit the bed a little earlier. Or take a nap later in the day. Or, up the caffeine.

    2. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      How often and how early are these calls, and how long would the project be. I’m not a morning person, and if I was asked to involve myself in a project that would involve, say, being awake and at work at 7am, or otherwise substantially earlier than my regular start time, I would be hesitant. But if it’s a call every quarter and the project will be done within a year, I would certainly suck it up for the sake of the larger benefits. Is there any way to do the project while involving her less?

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        Good point — I’m very much a morning person, so I sometimes genuinely forget that not everyone is up for an early call! I’m also frustrated with this boss in other regards, so my fuse is definitely shorter with her than it would be for literally anyone else.

        That said, this particular project is already fairly minimal on her end — all that’s required of her is one or two 7am calls. (The other department is based out of a country that’s 12 hours ahead of our time zone, so unfortunately, there’s no getting around it!) She tends to be inflexible and controlling, so I’m mostly just frustrated that she’s resistant to my taking on really vital work because it’ll mean one or two early mornings for her.

      2. Jack Be Nimble*

        I think my previous comment got eaten, whoops!

        The total time investment for my boss will be one or two calls at 7am — I will admit that I’m a morning person and probably don’t have a good sense of how difficult that could be, but my boss won’t have to do much more than introduce herself to the key players in the other department, and I’ll be providing the rest of the support (and dealing with any other early-morning calls outside of the initial intro call). Our org does a lot of work across time zones (this one is 12 hours ahead of us), so it’s a pretty standard expectation that people are available for the occasional call outside of normal working hours.

        I’ll also admit that I’m frustrated with my boss on multiple fronts, and this is just the latest incident. She tends to shut down even minor dissent, so it’s frustrating to see an opportunity, say “I think this is something we should pursue” and have her say it’s not worth it, even if I know her boss is going to reverse her decision.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          It is super hard to get up early if you’re not a morning person. She could also have early morning commitments that it’s hard to get out of (ie, kids to help prep for school).

          But like I said above, if they’re really 12 hrs ahead, why are you doing two morning meetings, and not one morning / one evening, or even two evenings?

        2. Giant Squid*

          Yeah, if I had to get up at 7AM every day, that would ruin my performance. I wake up a bit before 9, so think of that as cutting 2 hours into my normal sleep schedule.

          You probably go to bed at, 10 PM or so? That would be sort of like you taking a call at 11:30 PM (or whatever, just imagine it cutting 90-120 minutes into your sleep schedule). It does sound like your boss is a jerk and there are plenty of ways to work around it, and it sounds like this is 2 meetings. I’ve done 5, 6AM meetings before–it’s sometimes necessary.

          I don’t mean to derail–I think night owls get naturally defensive whenever this is brought up.

          1. Friday afternoon fever*

            It’s not even waking up at 7am! It’s waking up with enough time to do all your morning things and be alert and participatory *at* 7am. I still might be willing to do this twice. But it’s a pain.

          2. Curmudgeon in California*

            This. I’m a decided night owl. Even a 10 am start time is “early” by my bio clock.

            Yes, I can get up, take a 7 am call from home, and get back to sleep, but then I won’t be well enough rested to get in at 10 (I work 10 to 7). My boss works 7 to 4. We have an understanding: Yes, I can do early if it really has to be at that time, as long as it isn’t too often. Otherwise, he deals with the morning emergencies and I deal with the evening emergencies.

            One of my coworkers looks down her nose at it, but she has kids and is tied to their schedule.

      3. Filosofickle*

        Yeah, I have actually declined to take on client projects if there is an expectation of regular early meetings. I’ll do a few 7/8am spots out of courtesy but my work day starts at 9. (Usually I don’t have to decline. I just establish my availability and unless they’re in Europe we make it work with a core hours approach — 9-2 Pacific, 12-5 Eastern, etc.) My brain doesn’t work early, and my performance — and therefore my reputation & project success — is at risk. It’s not worth it to me.

    3. Stormy Weather*

      She needs to suck up and deal. Maybe grandboss can help?

      A friend of mine in a company multiple offices around the globe sometimes had to take conference calls at 6:00 a.m. because it was noon in London and early evening in Hong Kong. His office let him take those at home. Maybe that can be worked out for you and your boss?

      1. NoLongerStuckInRetailHell*

        I disagree that the boss should just “suck it up and deal”. It seems very clear that the other department is the one wanting help and asking for something from OP’s department. They should be the ones who need to “suck it up and deal” by adjusting to OP and her supervisor’s work hours, not the other way around.

  54. mercedenne*

    I had my second (first round) job interview this week for my first post-grad school job. I think it went really well! I did a practice interview with one of my friends, which definitely helped my (anxiety fueled) “sometimes I start a sentence and I don’t even know where it’s going, I hope I find it along the way” tendencies.

    I know it requires practice, but how does everyone else manage to keep their train of thought on the tracks during interviews?

    1. Jack Be Nimble*

      Before I respond, I try to take a moment to consider and figure out where I’d like to end up. For example, if they asked about a time I had to balance multiple conflicting priorities, I’d want to end on a note that reflects my ability to triage. Having an end goal in mind helps guide my response, limiting the number of times I was floundering to figure out where I was headed with my answer.

      This can be hard to do on the spot, so I think it’s helpful to look at common interview questions beforehand and consider what qualities/accomplishments they’re intending to learn about by asking. If you go in with a few examples prepared, you’re less likely to go off course.

      1. mercedenne*

        Thank you!

        I hope to be able to ace my next interview, whether it’s with the same institution or a different one. (Yay, higher ed!)

    2. Witch in Training*

      Others may disagree, but I haven’t found it to be the end of the world if I have to ask the interviewer to repeat themselves a tiny bit, especially if they’re asking a lengthy, multi-part question. It can honestly be necessary sometimes if the question you’re answering is too detailed to answer in one train of thought, and sometimes I think it helps the interviewer digest what you’re saying if you take a brief pause. I may answer the first one or two parts of a question while I can still remember them/have control over my train of thought, and then I might pause and ask them if they wouldn’t mind repeating the subsequent parts in a really light, upbeat way (“could I hear the last part of your question one more time?”). I wouldn’t use that as a strategy for every interview question, but in my experience, it’s better to to ask for repetition and be on topic/concise than try to improvise when conveying many thoughts/ideas all at once.

  55. Wing Leader*

    I have an issue with my coworker thanking me all the time. Okay, I know that sounds nuts, but let me explain. My coworker Jenny (who is admin, like me) often says that she wants me to feel appreciated at work (I’m not sure why she’s made this her personal mission). As such, she thanks me all day long. But not for normal things that people say thank you for. I mean, for things that are just my normal job.

    If I’m sitting at my computer looking at some reports and she walks by, she’ll thank me for working on them.
    If I notice a stapler is out of staples and I refill it, she’ll thank for me “taking the time” to do that.
    If I’m just walking by her, she’ll often give me a “thank for you for being you” cheer.

    Every time she does this, I respond with “you’re welcome.” But that’s ridiculous because I’ve not done anything for her. I’m just doing incredibly normal daily activities.

    I don’t mind someone thanking me as a social nicety or if I’ve gone out of my way to do something. But I’m getting annoyed by being thanked all day long for the most mundane of tasks.

    For the record, I don’t feel underappreciated by management or anything. I’ve gotten good performance reviews and three raises in four years. For some reason, this is just a little tick of Jenny’s and it’s driving me bonkers.

    2. Michelle*

      Perhaps it’s time for a sit-down chat with Jenny. Tell her you don’t feel underappreciated by management and that thanking you for doing your job is unnecessary.

      I’ve been an admin for a while now and sometimes when we get a new person, they feel like they have to endlessly thank me for things. I usually reply (cheerfully) “it’s my job!”. I did have to have the sit down chat with a few (always asked/told boss first) and it usually worked.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      It sounds like a mindfulness/gratitude practice thing – she’s deliberately looking for things to appreciate, and explicitly voicing them. I’d guess she’s doing it to everyone (including baristas and bus drivers and the woman at the DMV).

    4. OtterB*

      I recommend you address this directly before it hits BEC stage. If she’s not terribly touchy, then it seems like a conversation along the lines of, “Look, I’m glad that you want me to feel appreciated, but honestly, this level of thanks starts to feel weird to me and I would really appreciate it if you cut it back to thanking me only for things that are out of the ordinary.”

      Do you think maybe she’s feeling unappreciated herself and wants more thanks, and this is an indirect way of asking for it?

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        “Do you think maybe she’s feeling unappreciated herself and wants more thanks, and this is an indirect way of asking for it?”

        +1! This was my first thought.

    5. Close Bracket*

      That’s actually been the standard in every place I’ve worked (I’m an engineer). People thank each other just for having conversations. Someone thanked me after I asked him to complete something he had done where he hadn’t quite followed every loose end. The accepted response is not to say, “You’re welcome,” it’s to thank them back. I think it’s stupid, but I play along bc that’s the culture.

    6. Hedgehug*

      Can you just laugh it off one time and say “Look, I appreciate the appreciation, but you’re starting to go a bit overboard with thanking me for everything.”

    7. Filosofickle*

      Early in my career I worked with someone like this. It was super annoying! It bothered me a lot. And yet, looking back many years later, I wish I’d been more gracious about it. I’ve seen so many worse cultures and colleagues since then, I would definitely trade those for being unnecessarily over-thanked. It was just her way of expressing positivity and gratitude, and it didn’t hurt me. If I had to do it over, I’d simply smile back instead of grumbling to myself. :)

    8. PJM*

      I relate so much to this letter that I even wonder if you work with my old coworker. I do not think this ‘thanking’ is as harmless as others here seem to find it. Knowing my old coworker who was an absolute control freak, I really feel this over the top ‘thanking’ is a way of your coworker trying to exert her authority over you. It probably makes her feel like she has some control over you, like you are supposed to answer to her on some level. I also think it is a way of showing that she is watching your every move. I used to work on reports that would have absolutely nothing to do with my coworker. She would look at my computer screen, see what I was working on and thank me for doing the reports. I knew it bothered her that I was doing a job that she wanted to do herself, so I think it was her way of trying to exert authority over me, and making it seem that she was actually in control of who did particular work, when nothing was further from the truth. My only advise to you is to stop saying ‘you’re welcome’ and act visibly annoyed and tell her since she is not your boss, so you would really prefer that she not thank you.

    9. Curmudgeon in California*

      Hmmm. That could almost be me. But… I only thank people when they do something for me. The culture where I work is to do that, and the recipient of the thanks says “You’re welcome” or “No problem”.

    10. Alex*

      Ugh, I had a coworker like this once. With her, it felt like a way to belittle my actual contributions by thanking me profusely for finding a file or making a copy.

  56. Nonprofit Nancy*

    Have any readers ever lost their ambition? I used to think I wanted to be the boss, or at least manage people, and now having watched two bosses in a row be absolutely miserable – it was definitely not worth the additional money they were making over me – I’m thinking that I’m just not capitalist minded enough for this rat-race. I just want to have a good life and not go broke. It seems weird and shameful to even admit this somehow, and it’s definitely a change from how I used to feel. It’s like I’ve realized mid-career that I don’t value anything as much as I value my own freedom and peace of mind.

    1. Cleopatra*

      Maybe it is the environment you are in which is not motivating you at all.

      Have you tried to change jobs/departments/companies?

      Sometimes being in a toxic environment tends to bring us down and to demotivate us, thus making us think that we have no more ambition.

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        Yeah, maybe this is just a sign that I need a change. Hopefully it’s not some lurking depression symptom (but I don’t think so, as I’m getting a lot of joy out of other parts of my life).

    2. Crazy Broke Asian*

      Me. Growing up I wanted to be a journalist. I joined the school newspaper in high school, took classes in journalism in uni . . . And then I realised that with my anxiety and depression, I’d never make it. There’s also the fact that I’m not financially privileged enough to spend years paying my dues. I needed to start making money right after graduating.

      I don’t connect with most of my uni friends at LinkedIn, because it hurts seeing them working at places I wanted to be.

    3. Ali G*

      Oh heck yes. I did eventually find it again, but it’s very different than what I thought I would be doing. I was on track to build and run an entire department at my last job, and after that fell apart (long story), I really wanted to take a step back.
      In my new job, I have a lot responsibility, but it’s not as stressful, so it’s a good combo.

    4. Fikly*

      Ambitious does not only mean being the boss/manager. It is ambitious to want to be really good/skilled at your job.

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        hmmm maybe I can try to cultivate that. I’m kind of burned out in general so that doesn’t strike me as something I’m super excited about either right now hahahasob.

        1. EinJungerLudendorff*

          If you’re burning out, i’d make dealing with that a work priority instead of trying to force yourself to feel ambitious about things you don’t actually want.

          And it is absolutely a valid option to just… not try to advance somehow? If you’re content where you are, then it’s fine to stay there.

    5. lgh*

      Yup. When I first started in this industry I wanted to end up in senior management. I think I could have, too! But I found a hobby that I really love and requires time away from work completely (long distance backpacking). And then a few things happened: first my dad died. We worked in the same industry, he loved his job, and he was very well respected for his knowledge and experience. But he still died. I don’t know why, but it just killed a lot of my drive. And second, I found my niche in my job and I LOVE what I do. I’d love to be an industry expert on this, and lead work from a technical side, but I find this far more interesting than leading people.

      But if push came to shove (or, more realistically, I came into a ton of money) I’d absolutely quit my job and go backpacking.

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        Yeah I relate to this. I just want to do what I love, which is unlikely to ever be particularly lucrative.

    6. Amy Sly*

      There’s nothing wrong with this at all! Think of the military: there are line officers who are tasked with commanding troops to accomplish martial tasks, but then there are staff officers and specialists who do all the other stuff: the medical corps, the JAG, the logistics, even to a lesser extent specialties like engineering. They advance in their field, gaining experience, pay, and even rank without going out and assuming the responsibilities of command.

    7. 867-5309*

      Not everyone has or needs to have grand ambition. There is nothing wrong with a desire to do your work and go home. Work can facilitate the life you want, it doesn’t in and of itself have to be that life.

    8. Joielle*

      I did, and I don’t regret it at all. I’m an attorney – never wanted to manage people, but for a while I had what I thought was my dream job, with an important-sounding title that people were impressed by. I loved the actual work, but it came with long hours, really difficult clients, and not even enough money to make up for it (public sector). After an absolutely hellish quarter where I saw the sun rise from my office window more often than not, I called it quits and left for a much lower-stress position.

      I couldn’t be happier! I still get to do interesting work, but I absolutely never have to stay at the office past 5, I don’t have clients, I don’t check my email on the weekend… like you said, I realized that the thing I value most is my own freedom and peace of mind. “Ambition” is seen as such a virtue in our society, and I don’t think that’s healthy. Some people genuinely enjoy being part of the rat race (my husband does!), but some people don’t, and that’s not a bad thing. I work to live, not the other way around, and I’ll never get it mixed up again.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        There’s nothing wrong with ambition seen as a virtue, as long as people who are satisfied or don’t necessarily want to rule the world or value work/life balance above ambition aren’t looked down upon.

    9. OtterB*

      I think you have to think hard about what ambition to be a manager means/meant to you. Was it something you thought was expected of you to be a success in someone’s eyes? (Whose voice speaks to you about it?) Did you want people to look up to you? Did you want to contribute to the organization or to the growth of your subordinates by managing? There are lots of reasons to want that, and multiple reasons may apply. But I think you need the answers in order to judge whether it’s a problem in your role or in the organization and you’d be reenergized somewhere else, or whether this is a fundamental shift in what’s important to you (which is 100% okay).

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        Yeah, I think I just always assumed without questioning it too much that I wanted to “win” at life, and that’s what “winning” meant – you become the big boss. I’m very surprised to find out that I guess I don’t care if I’m winning or not anymore.

        1. Hapax Legomenon*

          I once played a board game where each person was randomly assigned a character card, and with that character card would come their own conditions for victory. Most of the cards had one particular kind of win condition, but there were several completely different ones, and no one knew what anyone else’s win conditions were until someone actually won. It doesn’t sound like you don’t care about “winning,” it sounds like your win condition changed. Just figure out what makes you feel like you, personally, are winning.

    10. TinyRaptor*

      Fellow “I just want a good life” person here; this is a fine way to feel, and is not necessarily incompatible with ambition! There is nothing shameful with being happy (or wanting to be happy) where you are, or prioritizing your wellbeing, happiness, and/or health over career advancement—in fact, I’d say that’s pretty normal and appropriate given that it’s your life and lived experience on the line here. Career ambition also isn’t black and white; you can seek to advance your career while also maintaining work-life balance, it just might change what opportunities you find compatible with your life and priorities. (And if you find that doing both is incompatible with your current company or industry, well, that’s good information to have and think upon. Do you really want the opportunities that require all your all when they leave you feeling like this?)

      On the other hand, if you feel completely apathetic and unambitious about everything right now, you might just be burnt out. Again, this is normal and human, but you might find your ambition and interest in furthering your career come back after some rest and recovery.

      All this to say, there’s more to life than work, and I don’t think you’re broken or shameful for realizing so. It’s okay to have priorities outside of work/productivity and to be content with that, even if it means you’re not the boss/not becoming the boss/not aiming to become the boss right now.

    11. Aphrodite*

      I came to that discovery too within the past year. I used to think I wanted to be considered for my boss’s position but having worked with him and having him share with me much of his frustration–he and I completely trust one another–I came to the realization that despite the doubled salary there is NO way I would take it if it were offered. It is insane.

      1. Nonprofit Nancy*

        It just seems like seeking promotion is the obvious thing to *do* at work, like isn’t the whole goal to work your way up?? And where does “up” lead, if not ultimately to become Director of Whatever or the primo head honcho. And now that I’m sort of getting within reach of making the jump I just like, don’t want to go any further haha. Sigh.

        1. Anonanon do do do do do*

          Back when I was working on my doctorate, I was being HEAVILY pressured to go into administration by head honchos in my industry due to my post grad work and my specialty. But I knew that was a one way ticket to misery, and I dug my heels in and said no. I stayed a classroom teacher and am so happy! I get to do the work I love everyday and am proud of myself for staying where I wanted. I put my expertise into my daily practice, and am satisfied.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I didn’t want to have my first step into management involve performance reviews for co-workers I’ve considered friends for years. (Plus training for new managers.)

    12. Ama*

      I don’t know that I “lost” my ambition, but my boss (who is the CEO of our mid-size nonprofit) once said that she thought I could move into her role some day and I candidly said I really didn’t think that was for me. In the years since seeing all the crap she deals with and the fact that she never really gets a real vacation or any personal time has just cemented my decision. I know from experience that I do not function well or enjoy my work if I can’t get a true break on most evenings and weekends and if that means I never go higher than I currently am (department head with a small staff), so be it.

    13. The New Wanderer*

      I agree about reframing what ambition means to you. I always thought I’d want to run my own lab, but in reality that requires a lot more management than the part that I love (hands on research). So I’ve got the next best thing in a lot of ways, work I like, excellent work life balance, and tons of flexibility. Many people here are lifers and I could see myself being one too. Fortunately, my company has a career progression track in parallel with management, but treated like applying for tenure with the accompanying hoops to jump through. That kind of satisfies my occasional urge to move up, so I figured I’d try for it. Unfortunately, the people who decide who is even allowed to apply decided I could not, for reasons not based on merit. (As in, I’m debating bringing this to HR as gender discrimination)

      So that reignited my ambition to go for a bigger research job elsewhere. I think my ambition wasn’t really about progressing upwards for its own sake, but getting to a point in my career where I’m recognized for my contributions and considered a leader. And yet, if it turns out that the new job wants more time from me than I want to give, I will turn it down and stagnate where I am. I value my flexibility and work life balance more than ambition.

  57. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    TLDR: I think my colleague might be experiencing the earliest stages of dementia.

    A few months ago, we hired Lucinda, an older woman who is very nice and hardworking but took a long time to get up to speed. She had a lot of trouble using a computer, so we all assumed that was it, but she does perform her essential job functions adequately and with a very positive attitude. Jane, who worked most closely with Lucinda, is in her 30s and was excellent at the technical aspects of the job but very immature and constantly gossiped, quickly grew very frustrated by her, called in sick 5 times in a two week period, and then flipped out at our boss and quit with no notice.

    I’ve been helping out a lot with covering Jane’s work and training a temp while we work on filling the position permanently, and while I absolutely never thought Jane’s behavior was justified, I have noticed that sometimes Lucinda seems very sharp and together, but then other times it’s like her mind was wiped. I couldn’t quite figure out what was going on, and then Lucinda mentioned being a caregiver for her mother who had dementia, and it suddenly clicked in my head.

    I am senior to Lucinda but not her manager, and don’t feel it’s my place to say anything to our manager since it’s all speculative. However, I can’t stop thinking about the whole situation since Lucinda is single, lives alone, lives far away from her closest relatives, and I’ve grown to care about her as a person and cannot stop feeling so incredibly sad for her.

    I guess I don’t know what kind of advice anyone could give, but I just needed to anonymously confide here.

    1. Nonprofit Nancy*

      Oh man, while dementia is one possibility I don’t think I would jump to assuming it’s the only explanation. If Lucinda is a caregiver she could also be experiencing a lot of stress, depression, distraction. Certain medications can also have mental effects. I would just document the issue you’re experiencing with Lucinda as neutrally as possible: “having explained the accounting system twice to Lucinda, on Tuesday she couldn’t identify the “deposit” button, I’m not sure what is causing this.” Someone, probably her supervisor, needs to bring the factual situation to her. Nobody needs to be running around assuming she has Alzheimer’s or whatever.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Oh, her mother died a while ago, she was sharing about what it was like when her mother was still alive! Sorry, should’ve clarified.

    2. Michelle*

      I wish there was a way for you to mention it to someone (HR/the boss). My mother is in the moderate stage of dementia and it’s such a cruel disease. I knew something was going on and begged her to go to the doctor but she was just so stubborn. When she finally retired, it started progressing more quickly. She’s still mobile and can manage very simple day to day activities (bathing, dressing,etc.), but she has forgotten who most people are or really gets them mixed up. For example:
      *thinks her grandson is her son
      *thinks her daughter (mother of grandson) is her mother
      *alternately thinks her mother (who has been gone 20 years) comes to her house several times a week and “dies” in front of her and the body “floats” away.

      Since Lucinda lives alone, I’m concerned about her driving and caring for herself. My mother still wanted to drive but always wanted someone to accompany her and if you couldn’t, she would get mad and jump in the vehicle and drive dangerously. I was always worried about her getting lost. Taking the keys away was week-long nightmare of screaming and saying we were holding her hostage and stealing from her. She began to refuse to bathe daily and got a rash. I could go on and on.

      When the doctor said she could no longer be left alone, we decided that the best thing for her was to move to live with her younger sister. The sister offered last year when it first got bad but we tried to keep her in her home. We were not able to give her the round the clock care she needs and the sister has a support network as she went through this with another relative.

      If there is anything at all you can do or think of to help her, please do so.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Fortunately, Lucinda takes public transit everywhere so she isn’t driving. But I am super concerned about her living alone. Apparently it’s because she’s been so taken advantage of every time she’s had roommates (last roommate let deadbeat daughter and deadbeat boyfriend move in and mooch off them without Lucinda’s consent) that she’s afraid to not be alone, so it’s a double-edged sword. The one thing that gives me comfort is that she’s very active at her church, so I’m really hoping that her church friends would step in to help her if things got more serious, and I feel that’s probably more appropriate than me as a colleague.

    3. Michelle*

      Also, if she is caring for a dementia patient (her mother), she could be experiencing caregiver fatigue and maybe not getting enough sleep. That was another thing that happened to my mom- she would nap all day and then sit up all night, just talking, talking, talking.

      Also, vitamin B12 and vitamin D deficiency can cause memory loss and since taking care of a dementia patient and working can be super demanding, she may not be taking cafe of herself properly. If you company has an EAP, perhaps they could help with some connecting to resources for assistance.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Sorry, should’ve clarified, Lucinda’s mother has been long dead by now, she was sharing about her past with me. I will make sure she’s aware of our EAP though, that’s a great idea I didn’t even think of.

    4. E*

      Have you said something to her in the moment when you feel like her mind has been wiped? Just a “you can refer to your notes, we went over this process/question last week/month already, remember?” and see what happens from there. Maybe if she hears a few times that someone is noticing an issue, she might realize it more herself.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Yes, that’s what me and our boss both do, and Lucinda is always super apologetic and openly embarrassed, which makes me feel so sympathetic for her. The other thing that’s tough for her is her job is very fast-paced and prone to frequent interruptions, so even for someone with a good memory it’s hard to maintain focus.

    5. Bubbles*

      PLEASE find a way to say something. Talk to Lucinda. Discuss the “blanks” you’ve noticed. Have that one conversation with her, then leave it alone.

      My godmother worked in the public sector for 30 years. When she was about 63, her kids came from out of state to spend a few weeks with her at the behest of my mother. During this time, godmother drove 2 miles to the store, then walked home empty handed (without her purse or keys!) because she forgot what was happening. It wasn’t until she was diagnosed with early-onset Alzheimer’s and retired that her coworkers mentioned to her family that they had been covering for her for YEARS. They loved her and respected her but didn’t want to overstep, so her family was unaware of the issues. My mother was the one noticing how often her friend misplaced things or forgot things and it took a few years to get to the point where it was especially worrisome. If we had known it was impacting her work, we would have brought her in much sooner.

      Yes, it is a leap to go to dementia, and she doesn’t have family around, but you could always encourage her to speak with her doctor about those blanks if she is concerned about it.

    6. Curmudgeon in California*

      So, I had a stroke in my early 30s. It had cognitive consequences. Even 25 years later I have bad days. I was waaaay worse.

      Cognitive decline is a consequence of aging, as well as TBIs and other brain injuries.

      It is also affected by nutrition, stress, depression, etc.

      I actually started taking supplements designed to help cognitive function, after doing extensive research and then keeping track of what seemed to work.

      I also started keeping notes on everything. If it was unique, or I didn’t do it every day, I write it down. I organized some stuff into “clues” files on my computer, by topic. I write comprehensive documentation on all my tasks, just so I have docs to refer to.

      Lucinda may not have dementia, she just may have bad brain days for any number of reasons. Encourage her to keep and use notes so that when she has woolly brain days she has her notes to keep her on track.

      BTW, I encourage everyone to do this for their job. Everyone is one auto accident with a TBI/MTBI away from needing their notes, so get the habit young. Soon no one will really notice your woolly brain days, because you have it backed up in your notes.

    7. Koala dreams*

      I wouldn’t assume it’s any particular illness, there are so many illnesses that cause bad memory and concentration problems. It’s also possible for it to be related to the exhaustion of being a care-giver (sometimes you are so busy taking care of others that you feel the exhaustion more after it ended and you can relax) or grief. It’s nice that you care about your coworkers, but most people get sick sooner or later. That’s just life. Take care of yourself, but don’t let your worries affect your work relationships. Easier said than done, I know.

      If the problems affect her work, you might need to bring it up with her manager. If it’s more of an annoyance, you can bring it up with her directly. “We went over this yesterday, and you seemed to get understand it then, but today you are asking me the same things again. What’s going on?”

    8. Sleve McDichael*

      Dementia caregivers are six times more likely to get dementia themselves. They think it might be from assisting with going to the toilet. Link below:

  58. joriley*

    Not a question, just a bit of a vent: I’m not actively job-searching right now but am applying to things here and there. I consider myself to be pretty good at taking Alison’s “submit it and forget about it” advice when I apply, but not so much once I’m further along in the process! I had a good first interview this week and the manager said she’d be moving me along to the second stage (interview with HR). It’s all I can do to stop just hitting refresh on my email whenever I have a free minute. I forgot how annoying this part is–I just want to knoooowwww!

    1. Witch in Training*

      Ugh I can relate to this HARD. Sorry you’re going through this. Venting doesn’t automatically invite unsolicited advice, so please disregard this if I’m overstepping, but can you set a time once/twice a day that’s dedicated to “worrying” about hearing back? Sometimes I set alerts on my phone for this, and I like knowing that there will be a planned time for me to frantically refresh my email and think about how badly I want to hear back. Just make sure you set a time limit for how long you allow yourself to do this (five minutes works for me). As much as it hurts to think about, if a fair amount of time has gone by since you have heard from them, I’d recommend spacing out the “worrying” periods gradually– maybe once a day, then every other day, then twice a week, etc. Hope that helps, and if it doesn’t, know that you’re not alone!

  59. Itsme*

    Has anyone negotiated salary and duties in a temp to perm situation where both sides are somewhat known entities?
    I really like this place and I know they really like me, the last (perm) person in my position made a little on the low end of my range, which I’d be willing to accept because this position has potential for doing some big projects and exposure to other departments that would really help me move more towards what I want to do in the future. But the company has been going through some restructuring and, even though I know I’ll be involved in a specific big project eventually, lately I’ve been getting some more interesting duties taken away and replaced with tedious data-entry things. And it was mentioned to me yesterday that my predecessor used to be on the rotation for receptionist coverage, so I will be too at some point. I’m just feeling like the position is being devalued from the initial pitch and when they offer me a permanent position (which I know is happening) it will be my only chance to solidify making the position more of the “leaping off” role I want it to be.
    Anyone have tips on how to word “I want exposure and projects and generally to feel valued and I know this role can mean anything from glorified admin to project-leading professional but I want to be on the latter end of that”?

  60. Extroverted Bean Counter*

    I’ve gotten some odd feedback a couple times lately and don’t know what to do with it.

    Several people in mentoring roles for me have told me that I’m perceived as quiet and unassuming, and that in order to keep moving on/up in the company I’ll really need to work on making myself known and letting my personality out.

    The thing is, I really don’t know what else I can be doing! I’m a radio DJ/bartender turned accountant (see screen name, ha) and as far as I’m concerned am not shy at all about networking and making connections, chatting with people etc… Based upon my interactions with other people at my level I’m more gregarious and engaging than your standard staff accountant. I volunteer for projects that put me in contact with other teams, I regularly have 30 minute coffee chats with old managers and department leads as well as my functional peers.

    They also describe me as “calm and unflappable” which is certainly true. I was an even-keeled and pragmatic bartender and that’s served me well as not getting too worked up about accounting problems.

    But I’m at a loss for how to “more me” and make more of an effort when it feels like I’m doing all I can. Is it maybe my inability to go to happy hours and social gatherings (two small kids in daycare, spouse who works evenings) that’s making me seem invisible?

    Any suggestions?

    1. Nonprofit Nancy*

      I wonder if they mean, in work situations. Do you assert your own independent ideas and have strong opinions that you defend, work-wise? Do you do work on the edges, or are you just filling your role? Just thinking out loud. I have a colleague who is a colorful personality, sure, but doesn’t have much noticeable affect at work, seems content to go along with what’s happening, and I know it has held him back in terms of promotions.

    2. CheeryO*

      I was ready to say that I was dumbfounded until I got to the part about the social gatherings. I know it sucks, but I think in some work environments, if you always skip that kind of stuff, you end up being seen as someone who isn’t 100 percent invested. I say this as someone who has always been reserved but has only gotten feedback about needing to be more “visible” at one job, the one where I always skipped out on the monthly happy hour.

      Regardless, do you have a current mentor who you could chat about this with? I’m sure they’d be happy to try to reflect on those perceptions and unpack them a little.

    3. Close Bracket*

      I’m perceived as quiet and unassuming, and that in order to keep moving on/up in the company I’ll really need to work on making myself known and letting my personality out.

      None of this is actionable. You need to ask what behaviors are leading people to believe you are quiet and unassuming, and you need to ask what kind of behaviors they are looking to see.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would ask for more clarification for what they mean by “letting my personality out.”

      You can’t do happy hours because of the kiddo but have you tried to arrange daytime stuff? Team lunches perhaps? Or even if you tried to gather everyone for a friendly game of lunch time Jenga that would get you some more buzz. I’d launch it as “I never get to go to happy hour, I’m sad I miss out, y’all! Who wants to start doing lunch club?!” or something like that. It’s still sadly not the same but it puts you out there as “I want to be with you, I want to hangout with you but I’ve only got 9-5, what are you doing for lunch?!”

      But also the sad part is that with home obligations, that will often set you back in general. That’s the shitty side of that strict work/life balance that we pay when you are only available for work and no outside socializing.

  61. thebakeisapie*

    This Reddit thread from the other day about a missed interview has me shaking my head. Basically, the interviewee slept through their interview time and, while they did call to apologize, they offered no explanation to the interviewers and didn’t come across as contrite at all. To me this seems like terrible advice, but I’m curious what the AAM commenters’ take would be?

    https://www.reddit.com/r/LifeProTips/comments/f6jt5e/lpt_keep_your_mouth_shut_and_dont_volunteer/

    1. Aurion*

      I saw that on Tumblr. The interviewee was lucky that there happened to be computer issues that week; that’s a fluke, not life advice. In any other circumstance that didn’t have a concurrent computer issue I would’ve been…deeply unimpressed with this interviewee.

      The life advice of “make a simple, concise statement and stop talking” isn’t bad advice, but part of that “simple concise statement” should include sincere apologies if you were the one to screw up.

      This is why I do not take job advice from Tumblr.

      1. Persy*

        I don’t know – “don’t volunteer information” is pretty good advice in general! The OP responded to apologize, and ask if rescheduling was possible. They successfully curbed their impulse to overshare. It worked out well for them! The computer problems was a fluke, but even if it weren’t the case, it would not harm their chances at all to not volunteer information. Whereas the truth (“I overslept!”) would most certainly hurt their chances, and a lie or excuse would likely ring hollow.

        And I feel that the advice is helpful more broadly – when you have a need in a work situation, if you don’t absolutely have to give someone more information, it’s best to stay reserved. If people need or want more information, they can ask, and they usually don’t even think twice about it (except in really egregious situations).

        1. Aurion*

          When two parties enter into an agreement and one side fails to uphold that end of the agreement, apologies are necessary, and I think a simple explanation is owed with the apology. “Hey, I’m sorry I didn’t finish your teapot reports, I got buried with the urgent llama grooming report and I forgot to mention it to you.”

          You’re right that there is very little spin on “I overslept” that would make this situation better. OP skated through by the skin of their teeth because the interviewer happened to be having computer issues all week and thus didn’t ask why OP flaked; that’s lucky for OP, but that doesn’t mean “do not give even a nominal explanation with the apology” is generalized life advice.

          1. Persy*

            I just think that’s a very negative view of the situation. Perhaps we can agree to disagree, but “I’m sorry I missed our appointment; can I reschedule?” is perfectly acceptable in most situations. Of course different situations have different contexts – I’d expect an intern reporting to me to give an explanation if they didn’t show up for a planned meeting, for example. But if I were interviewing a potential new intern and they missed my call, “I’m sorry I missed your call; is it possible to reschedule?” would be a perfectly reasonable email to receive. I would either be able to reschedule the call or I wouldn’t; the reason for missing would only matter to me if it became a pattern. And in the case of a pattern, the problem is the behavior of missing appointments, not whether or not they told me why they missed.

            I think being critical towards OP and chastising the story as bad life advice misses the point – it is, in my opinion, good advice to keep yourself calm and collected, and only to volunteer information when it’s necessary. That obviously doesn’t mean “never explain yourself.”

            1. Oh No She Di'int*

              Hmmm. I think “volunteer information when it’s necessary” is right, but I also think that missing a job interview–a job interview!–is absolutely one of those necessary times. We interview lots of job candidates at my office, and flaking on an interview is an automatic “no”. If the person turns up later, they better have a very good excuse and we shouldn’t have to dig it out of them. That call needs to be: “Oh my god! I’m so sorry! I know that I probably wasted a lot of people’s time, and I apologize for that but my dog died/sister was in the hospital/I got food poisoning” etc. Because if you’re the type of candidate who will disappear and then show up with no explanation when you are presumably trying to impress us, imagine what kind of employee you’ll be when you’re not even worried about impressing anyone anymore.

            2. Aurion*

              If there wasn’t a preexisting agreement (deadline, appointment, etc), then I agree no explanation is really necessary because the parties hadn’t mutually agreed on the appointment/task/whatever. If I didn’t expect a phone call from my bestie or even my boss, “hey, missed your call” without apology is perfectly fine to me since I hadn’t cleared my time for the call. But if we had mutually agreed on the time for the appointment/task/whatever and the other party flaked, then yeah, I’d expect an explanation for wasting my time. Missed appointments usually incur penalties–in terms of interviews, that usually means an automatic toss into the circle bin. For other appointments, there’s a penalty fee. People are usually very understanding if you explain (in general – again, I don’t think there is much explanation that would circumvent “uh, I overslept” in this situation), but I do think some explanation is warranted.

              While you do say “obviously that doesn’t mean never explain yourself”, the Reddit post ended with a conclusion of “don’t ever volunteer information, kids”, and its comments are much the same, so I think I summarized the Reddit post (and my disagreement with it) aptly.

              We can agreed to disagree though.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      That’s like saying: “I was in a car accident and I wasn’t wearing my seatbelt. As it so happened, I was just fine! Life lesson: never wear a seatbelt!”

      It’s ludicrous.

  62. EnfysNest*

    Looking for suggestions for job types as I start my search. I have a degree in architectural engineering and I’ve been in a position managing construction contracts for a government agency for 7 years, but I want to change to something else. I don’t think I want to go to a design firm, both because it’s been so long since I graduated that I feel like a recent grad would be a better fit than me, and because I’ve found I really dislike having long, extended projects with nebulous goals.

    I want to find something where I have clear tasks to complete, where I can be *done* with each task/project within a relatively short timeframe (my current projects have been lasting anywhere from 1-4 years from inception to completion and I never feel like I’ve accomplished anything because nothing’s ever finished.) I also never know what I’m going to do from day to day because I just have a long list of things in different phases that I try to peck away at between interruptions, but I’d much rather have clearer individual deliverables and objectives.

    I like details, data, math, problem solving, etc. I’ve been particularly interested in training I’ve had on OSHA or Fire Protection inspections. I’m thinking some form of Compliance or Quality Control position might be a good fit for me, but I don’t know if there are better terms to search for or a position that might be a good fit that I haven’t thought of. I’m willing to change fields entirely if I can, I just need to get out of contract management, because it’s really sucking all interest and engagement out of me.

    Any recommendations for job types or search terms or other advice as I move forward with my job search? I’m currently making ~65K (in an area close to the national average for cost of living), but I’m able and willing to take a cut if necessary in order to get a position I won’t hate. Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      Quality Assurance. That’s the term for folks involved with compliance. Folks in QA do auditing to standards (like ISO and gov’t regulations) for many different industries. In fact, there are folks who do auditing full-time; some are on-site and some get to travel to different work sites to assure compliance. They write reports that go to management so that management can then create plans to remedy any lack of compliance. This would be something of a 1 week to 1 month assignment.

      Might visit http://www.ASQ.org and read about auditing-and compliance. They encompass many different industries.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Have you looked at non-architectural design and construction firms? I work at an EPC firm. We mostly do industrial projects, but there is usually a building scope (often a pre-engineered metal building, but sometimes stick built or masonry). There are a lot of roles you could fit into. On the engineering side, we have a building group to handle that project building scope, and they have managers, architects, arch-E’s, ME’s, EE’s, etc. We also have a fire protection group, an estimating group, and the entire construction function. Coming from the government, it looks like your salary expectations would be lower than what my company pays someone with 7 years experience and actually closer to our entry level (I’m in a mid-west city), which might allow you to restart in design if you wanted to. As for the nebulous goals and long time line on jobs, the building scope on any of our jobs wouldn’t be 4 years. They’re boring industrial buildings, and definition depends which role your in. Estimators have less definition, but the scope is defined for the actual project engineer.

      The main problem I see is location. These firms are large and there aren’t 10 of them in every city.

      1. EnfysNest*

        I’ll look into that. Thanks! I’ve got a little bit of flexibility in my location as I search, too, so hopefully that will help.

    3. OtterB*

      My husband is a chemical/mechanical engineer and in his current job he switched from the Engineering group (which does longer-term projects, often contracting the work out) to Maintenance, which sounds to me like it means being in there with a wrench but actually includes a lot of troubleshooting and shorter-term projects that fall under a certain dollar amount. Maybe a distinction like that would work for you?

    4. CheeryO*

      Look at your local and state government career websites – in addition to the QA arena, there’s a whole world of regulatory compliance out there. You may have enough construction-related experience to get more of a traditionally civil engineering role, which should give you some options. I’m in a civil-esque field in state government, and it’s kind of the best of both worlds – plenty of longer projects to keep you engaged long-term, but also short-term stuff like individual inspections and follow-up to scratch the “accomplishment” itch.

    5. Ranon*

      Building permit/ plan review? You’d probably need some sort of certification but likely with your background it would be pretty feasible and the structure of tasks seems like it would be more along the type of thing you prefer.

  63. Special Name Today*

    Thoughts on butting in if you think your newly adult kid is making a wrong career choice? This is particularly sticky because it’s family. My husband wants my son to work for him after he graduates college. This made sense a few years ago because my son had not found his footing and didn’t have any specific interests, but now he really likes his marketing and strategy courses. I think he would be great in a business development role. My husband has a two-man operation, and it’s not in the skill area my son went to school for. He actually wants him to get separate training in that trade area while he works for him, then they would grow the business and son could move into a more managerial role. My main issue is that I don’t have a ton of confidence that this larger business is going to manifest because my husband is a great DOER but not so much as a business owner/manager. He’s worked independently for 18 years without growing the business. I also think my son is missing out on an opportunity to see what else he could do with his shiny new business degree. Why not do something for a year and then go work for my husband if he wanted? Lastly, my son is not great in the area of the business, but I’ve seen his mind work, and he is good in the area of business that he likes.

    I was with my son by himself last weekend and he was telling me all about how great school was going. He said there was a career fair that he had to go to for classes, and I semi-jokingly asked if he was going to look for a job. He said, “No, but I could probably get a job with [large industrial supply company] because I worked with them for the marketing project last semester and they really like me.”

    I know this a very big deal and something my husband has been counting on, so I’m not sure how to approach it.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      So… are you asking about whether you should talk to your son about making the wrong choice (in which case, do you mean the “wrong choice” of working for his dad, or the “wrong choice” of not working for his dad?), or whether you should talk to your husband about how your son is a grown man and needs to make his own decisions that may not align with what husband wants?

      1. Special Name Today*

        I would like to bring it up with my husband and have him open that discussion with our son. I think it would be wrong to go around my husband, and that would start a big mess.

        I think “wrong choice” is too strong of wording now that you’re saying it! What I think is that there are other careers that suit my son better than working for my husband, and that he is selling himself short by jumping into that without looking at other options. My second son is wired more closely to my husband and is good at fixing things, etc. (which is what the business is), and the oldest is more strategy minded like me, but also very different because I’m an introvert and he’s an extrovert. He can fix stuff because my husband has taught him, but he isn’t really gifted that way.

        At a minimum, I’d like my husband to tell him he should consider his own career choices before committing to working in the family business, and preferably, I’d like him to actively encourage him to do look at other options.

      2. Special Name Today*

        I guess my first sentence really should have been, “Thoughts on telling my husband that I think it’s a bad idea for my son to work for him without crushing my husband’s dreams and having him po’d at me?”

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Might be a good one to stay out of as long as you can, honestly. (That’s what I would do.) But if you really feel like it would be better for you to say something, your angle might be that maybe husband (and younger son who is interested and appropriately-talented?) can work on growing the business for now, and eldest son can go practice his training wheels on other people’s businesses and learn and grow on his own merit, and then when he’s a businessing expert an undetermined number of years down the road, he can come back to the family business and use what he’s learned in the real world to make you all kajillionaires, but in order to be Properly Successful, he needs to have a bigger sandbox to learn in. (Sorry, son, I don’t mean to hammer on all those playground metaphors, I know you’re not a kid!)

          1. valentine*

            without crushing my husband’s dreams and having him po’d at me
            If he does this, you’ve got bigger fish to fry. I think you’re concerned about your husband’s business being a dead end for your son. (And for your husband?) Does he want to grow it or is he happy just having it meet your needs? Ideally, you would’ve agreed on this much earlier, but tell him that you both need to support your sons’ dreams and not cast them in roles because that way lies heartache. Also, it’s not good to put all the eggs in one basket. A Hubs & Sons business, were it to go under, would leave you supporting all four of you. It would especially be a bad idea if, for some reason, you couldn’t work and they were left unable to support you.

            1. Special Name Today*

              I would agree about the concern of it being a dead end for my son. I think it could provide him a sustainable income for the next 10 years if he chose to do it, but I’m not convinced that they are going to grow it so that he could someday have a role he would be suited for.

              On my husband’s thoughts about growth. . .He wants to grow it with my son, but he’s said he would eventually shut it down and do something else himself if son didn’t want to join the business. He is 44 and doesn’t want to do physical labor forever, plus the way he runs it now it’s just go, go, go all day from one job to the next. He hasn’t been an employee for so long that he has weird feelings about that, but he could fabricate things at his very large home shop and sell them. I also see his talents differently than he does. He is very good at anything hands-on, but he is also good at leading and relationship building. Not so much at back office type stuff, which he could hire out, but at this point he doesn’t have the interest in building a business on his own. . .which is another strike against this whole plan IMO. So, we have had these conversations, but just not hitting on quite the right angle.

              I have a very good job, life insurance, disability insurance, retirement savings, and our house will be paid for in ~5 yrs with both of us working as we are now. My husband could not earn another dime and we would be fine for the rest of our lives. He would hate that, but just saying it’s not a worry of mine.

              1. AcademiaNut*

                Will it be good for him for the rest of his life, though?

                Because if he spends 10 years working for a family business where it’s just him and his dad, that’s a really bad setup for moving on to something else. He’s not going to learn standard professional norms and he’s not going to have references for applying for another job (you can’t use your dad as a reference even if you work for him).

                If he does want to work for the family business, it’s be much better to go out and get a job with someone else, pick up 5-10 years of work experience at a couple of different places, and come to the family business as an experienced professional, not an entry level employee.

                Personally, I think this is a bad enough move for your son, career wise, that I’d be willing to burn a fair amount of relationship capital to speak up. At the very least, your son should know the risks and feel that he can make his own decision without damaging his relationship with his father.

                And if turning this down would damage his relationship with his father, he absolutely should not be working for him!!

          2. Special Name Today*

            I like how you’ve suggested putting this. (I think the problem is that I have stayed out too long.) My concern is my son’s best opportunity to get a job is now, or I would keep my mouth shut forever and let them figure it out. I mean, I’m not trying to be dramatic that all hope is lost if he doesn’t get right into his final field straight out of school, but I think A->B is easier than A->Q->B.

            I’m also a little worried that things could go south with the two of them. My husband is just used to telling him what to do. He has even thrown out an idea that we could buy a rental property and son could rent it–I nixed that. I like family | work. Not family/work.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          It depends on your husband. Possible scripts / angles:
          “It would be best if Son spent some time seeing how it works in other businesses. It would be good for him and the business if he does choose to come into it. You will get a partner who can contribute new and different skills, not just another set of hands.” (Notice how I slipped that ‘if’ in there….)
          “I think Son may not enjoy CoreSkills, and maybe we should grow the business with someone who does enjoy them, instead of trying to force Son to be something he’s not.”

          It can take years to help someone come to understand their dreams may not play out the way they want, but a lot of times, where you end up is better.

    2. JessicaTate*

      I don’t know your husband or his communication style, so big caveat there. But I think I’d start with him and try to frame a conversation in terms of your recent chat with your son. Basically that second-to-last paragraph in your question. Tell him what you heard and observed first. Then I might call out, “It was so amazing to see the difference in his drive and enthusiasm for his career, compared with his mindset a few years ago when he kinda seemed lost. It sounds like he might have some real opportunities out there in the broader business world.” Maybe then pause and see what the husband says. He may be too busy seeing the situation from his p.o.v. and not stopping to look at things from Son’s p.o.v. – or is just assuming the status quo from a few years ago.

      My goal would be to get my husband first seeing that things have changed for Son, he has some great opportunities, and come to the view that maybe we shouldn’t be making him feel required to join the family business.

      If husband raised “But the business needs him for XYZ that I’m not good at,” you could maybe help him think through “What are other routes we could pursue to help fill that gap in the company, rather than hiring Son?” A different employee. Or a contract role. But he may need to be shaken out of the assumption made a few years ago, and start looking at the situation NOW. And maybe after Son does some work in the outside world, he’ll come back and help grow the family business, or whatever.

      If I can get husband to not be all, “You must work for the family business and I will crush your dreams if I have to!!!” Then for the son, you just have the re-set conversation with him to make clear that a) Dad would still love to have you work for him, but b) you’re a grown-up now and need to decide on your own path; Dad will understand if you want to pursue something else. After that, Son needs to make the hard life choices.

      1. Special Name Today*

        I really like the suggestions in your first and second paragraph. Thank you!

        I added another response above that husband doesn’t really want to continue on in this business without my son, so I don’t see bringing in other employees. We’ve had these conversations for 18 years. He’s had a handful of helpers/apprentices over the years, and he likes that, but nothing more. I am kind of at the point where it’s fish-or-cut bait for me–either grow it or keep it as-is, but stop talking about it. I would have stepped in to run it with him 10+ years ago, and I did the books until about 2010. I was done done 6 years ago. He had a fresh employee and was going to make a run at growth then. I helped him with some marketing stuff, but he didn’t really do his part of it, and he ended up firing that guy and going solo again for a few years. Anyway. It doesn’t matter to me what he does for himself, but I don’t want him to build this up in my son’s head and then be overwhelmed and continue to keep it small. (heh, the details that influence my opinion just keep emerging, don’t they?)

        1. JessicaTate*

          You’re welcome. Reading your other context, it sounds like your husband needs to do some soul-searching (taking your son out of the mix). It sounds like his bottom line may be, “Unless I’m passing it on to my son, I’m kinda done with this.” Great. That’s a starting point! And probably not a starting point for passing it on. You want to pass it on with enthusiasm.

          I’m a small business owner, so I get it. If you’re not passionate about it anymore, that’s OK, and a sign that it’s time to start planning what comes next. Maybe he just needs a little support or sounding board (maybe not you?) for working that out? When I was jumping from being an employee to opening my own shop, it felt like a BIG leap. A mentor had me write down the conditions of my ideal working scenario – commute, analytical work or making stuff or selling stuff or whatever, culture, routine vs variety, self-direction vs getting assignments, oversight vs independence, etc. Not naming “Job X”, but what the work would be like as an experience. That process helped me stop thinking about concrete options and get to my underlying goals. And that’s what made me see there was just one thing holding me back from starting my business, and objectively, it was surmountable.

          Your comment above makes me think that your financial stability means he has lots of potential options, but change can feel overwhelming. If he focuses on the type of experience he’d like to be having for his next 25 years, maybe it will help him see how other options could fulfill that (like a custom furniture-making business or something) in a way that eliminates the stuff he doesn’t like doing, without losing the things he enjoys, and still be part of your family’s financial stability.

          I’m rambling. I can feel your husband’s pain (and yours for having to watch/listen with no resolution). I hope he can find a new blissful path. Change is hard, but it can be great.

    3. MissGirl*

      Your son may be feeling obligated to work for dad–I know my brothers did. I would talk to your son and tell him he has a lot of options and that he is under no circumstance required to work with his dad. You could also encourage him to apply for other jobs to make sure sure that family business is what he wants instead of what he defaults to.

    4. we're basically gods*

      There’s a local business (as in, literally around the block from the house where I grew up) that went down in flames because the Dad pushed his sons into joining in. His dream was that they would work together to grow the business; none of the sons had the same dream.
      Your husband shouldn’t be counting on your son joining his business. It honestly just sounds like a recipe for disaster and resentment to me.
      I would tell your husband that your son should be allowed to pursue his own dreams. He’s an adult, and it sounds like he’s already got an idea or two for what he wants to do with his own life. In general, having idealized dreams that rely on other people having the same dreams as you is a good way to wind up disappointed.

    5. BusyBee*

      Not sure I have good advice, necessarily, but this reminded me so much of my step-dad and my brother! Our step-dad is brilliant with hands-on work and ran his own business for many years. His clients loved him, but he was a total lone wolf. He had a single assistant that would work with him and a few laborers that he worked with semi-frequently, but it was really just him. And he was never able to scale the business because he didn’t have the skills you need to run that sort of business- he was AMAZING at the work, not at all amazing at teaching or leading others to do the work. My brother worked with him on and off all through high school, and I think my step-dad really thought brother would take over the business, but it just wasn’t mean to be. Step-dad didn’t have the disposition to do the things he would need to do to successfully transition the business. And my brother didn’t really love the work and didn’t really work harmoniously with step-dad’s mix of overbearing micromanaging and hands-off nonsense. So it didn’t really work out for our family: step-dad eventually moved into a different line of work when he couldn’t do the physical labor anymore, and brother is off doing his own thing.

    6. Batgirl*

      I think it’s really risky that your son is only going to have his father as a referee! I think I would frame it as “Son is in a good position right now to get some alternative business experience and a back up reference. Once he’s been in the family business for a while he might not have the same connections”
      I think it’s seriously brilliant to have a business to offer your children, but you’ve always got to be careful about putting all eggs in one basket. Keep it as an extra basket.

    1. Cleopatra*

      I would like to thank this website and all AAM commentor, because having this website was a great help in the past year.

  65. Moving Anonymously*

    I am looking for experience and advice from the readers on living and working in Qatar, especially for a family with small children.

    I’ve tried to do extensive research online from other expats on their experiences but I’m always eager for more! The potential employer would cover moving expenses and would largely cover housing, transportation, and travel back to the U.S. at regular intervals.

    A big concern for us is the potential for difficulty in finding positions back in the U.S. when we’re ready to return. I’d love to hear about your experience returning to your home country, too!

    1. Ann Perkins*

      My husband did a deployment there, so not quite the same since he was on the base and not in a civilian job. But he enjoyed his time there. It’s very western-ized in a lot of ways. It’s obviously very hot and dry so hydrate well if you live there!

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Can’t help you on the Qatar question specifically, but on the relocation question, I highly recommend these 2 books by Robin Pascoe, the spouse of a now-retired Canadian foreign service officer: A Moveable Marriage: Relocate Your Relationship without Breaking It, and Homeward Bound. I bought them, read them, and recommend them to anyone with a young family who’s about to go overseas. Good luck!

    3. world traveler*

      Are you me? I’m (very) late to comment so you may not get this, but I’m writing from Doha right now. My spouse has been working here for several years. We ended up not moving the whole family over because of the uncertainties with my career and the expense/complications of having children, and have worked things out to go back and forth frequently. If you are not planning on working, it is easier, but finding an actual career as the trailing spouse is complicated, and can be actually impossible if the trailing spouse is the husband because of the way visas work. School schedules are often set up with the assumption that there is a housewife to pick up the kids, too. That said, the expat community here is very vibrant, the weather right now is amazing, some of the jobs are really unique, it can be an interesting place to spend some time, and is one of the last places where you can really bank some good money – although a lot less than the other expats as a US citizen, since you have to pay taxes your colleagues don’t.

  66. Tabby Baltimore*

    Subject Line Ideas: Looking for good email subject lines I can use with my supervisor/program manager to indicate actions or updates.
    Past offices I’ve worked in have used these phrases. What words/phrases do you use, and how effective have they been with facilitating understanding/getting action?
    FOR YOUR REVIEW
    FYSA
    FYI
    FOR COORD
    FORAC or FOR ACTION
    FOR DISSEM or FOR DISSEMINATION (yeah, kind of long, looking for something shorter)
    RFI (request for information)
    FLASH or HOT [used for something needing immediate action]

    Thank you, Hive Mind.

    1. CTT*

      I think you need at ask your supervisor what they prefer. What gets someone’s attention or how they like to organize their inbox is really specific, and some companies have rules about subject lines so they can be archived correctly.

      FWIW, if you’re just sending status updates that aren’t urgent, the all-caps feels like overkill and I would probably miss actually urgent items.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I like “FOR ACTION” if they need to take action, and nothing or FYI if it’s an update. Generally, I just write a descriptive subject line and say FYI in the email if it’s an update.

      In my project management space, RFI is a formal RFI and has a documented process through an online tool, so I’d stay away from that. Other acronyms like FYSA or FORAC don’t seem as universally known.

    3. Construction Safety*

      ACTION – Compulsory for the recipient to take some action
      SIGN – Requires the signature of the recipient
      INFO – For informational purposes only, and there is no response or action required
      DECISION – Requires a decision by the recipient
      REQUEST – Seeks permission or approval by the recipient
      COORD – Coordination by or with the recipient is needed

    4. SomebodyElse*

      We rarely use indicators… but when we do.

      For Review:
      Action Needed:
      HOT -this is mostly for the production line
      Urgent/Critical:

      or we use something to indicate urgency related to a certain event, like when we are getting close to the end of the half, we’ll use “H1- Teapot Inc. order 1234”

      I’d say less is more for these types of things.

    5. Mockingjay*

      Whatever you and your boss decide will work, be consistent with the tags.

      I use similar indicators for emails with my government customers. They receive literally hundreds of emails per week. By using identical subject lines each time, they can do a keyword search in the email app and quickly find the report I sent.

  67. Manon*

    Does anyone have advice on how to handle the logistics of job searching while in college?

    I’m still in the early stages of applying, but the thought of juggling applications, interviews, a housing search, class, extracurricular commitments, and a part-time job is… intimidating. I’m mostly concerned about having a job (any job!) and a place to live lined up when I graduate, as my family lives in a completely different part of the country from my college, but that makes for tough decisions about whether I should just take the first job I’m offered or hold out for a more ideal position.

    1. Mid*

      I recently went through the same thing. I got recruited by a legal temping agency, and worked with them the summer post-graduation, until landing my permanent position in September (which I got through the temp agency actually!)

      I cut every penny from my budget, so I could afford to live for two months without any income, and then kept my part time job while temping (I only did 1-2 shifts per week, but it was enough to keep me on the list, and if there was downtime between temp gigs, I had income.)

      I applied for 3-4 jobs per month while still in school, but I couldn’t realistically make time to do any more than that. Some people can manage more, but I personally was dealing with a lot of burn out, so I felt it was best for my health to take it a little easier.

      Once I graduated and my lease expired, I crashed on my friend’s couch for a pittance of rent, and job searched more intensely. I also don’t have family nearby. I figured I could make enough money temping to last through November, and then if I didn’t have a perm position by then, I’d move back to my parents and do retail again while applying for permanent positions. Luckily, I landed a full time job before then.

      A lot of this depends on your industry and your finances. If you’re in an industry like accounting, I’ve been told it’s very common to have a job lined up before graduation. But most people I know didn’t start a perm position until later in the summer, and several are still in full-time retail work while looking for something in their field.

      I highly highly recommend temping though. There are downsides, and some agencies are better than others, but it’s a good way to get industry-related experience, and pick up a lot of skills very quickly, and it’s not going to look bad on a resume to quit temping in a few months. (Not that you should keep in on your resume forever, but it can actually be very helpful when you’re just starting out. It shows that you can learn quickly, and function in a basic office setting.)

      I personally worked with Robert Half. They have a very strong presence in the legal field in my area, and know of a lot of job openings that aren’t publicly listed. They got me the interview with my current employer. Different agencies can have different areas of specialty. RH has a legal division, creative, and finance, plus connections with a lot of other industries.

      1. A Person*

        I also had a good experience with Robert Half years ago when I dropped out of grad school and needed things on my resume that showed I could do basic office work. I temped various positions for almost 8 months, some full time, and was even offered a job in HR (which was not what I was looking for, but it was nice).

      2. Manon*

        Thanks! I have actually received emails from RH about temp positions, so it’s definitely something to look into more seriously.

    2. Cap. Marvel*

      I know exactly what you’re going through. The main thing is it’s great to have goals and plans, but you’ll need to be flexible because no one is working with your deadlines. Apply early, but don’t be too hard on yourself if you don’t have something lined up right after graduation. If you need money right away, then get a retail job or work as a barista until you find something else. I personally enjoy temping more than anything else so if that’s an option for you I highly recommend it. I’d also research how much your industry pays because then you can calculate how much you can spend on rent or if you need a roommate (or roommates).

      This is what I did:
      When I decided not to move back home, which would have been cheaper, I needed to find a roommate. My college is in a city with a high COL, and I didn’t want to move too far away. So roommate first, then apartment hunting. The way we did it was we looked on Apartments . com and made a list of all the things that were deal-breakers before making a list of apartments we liked. She took half of the viewing appointments and I took the other half; then we made a spreadsheet and compared notes before deciding on one. Nearly all the apartments we looked for required a certain threshold of income that we didn’t meet, so we needed a co-signer while we job hunted because neither of us had anything lined up when we applied.

      I kept hearing all my classmates talking about how they had these great jobs lined up after they graduated and it was stressful to know that I had nothing. Because I had a double major, both which required a thesis to graduate, I actually didn’t have a lot of time to spend job searching if I wanted to graduate. What helped for me was thinking of applying as another class I was taking and setting time aside to apply and work on cover letters. But if I had focus on my actual classes instead of the applying, I forgave myself for not filling out X applications that week.

      I did not have a job lined up by the time I graduated, but I did sign up with a temp agency that helped keep me afloat while I searched. I also signed up for Wag and had another dog sitting gig while I applied and temped. My temp agency actually helped me find the place I am working at now. I’m relatively happy with where I ended up but it definitely wasn’t my first choice. It pays well so I’m looking at it as my starting off point while I look for positions that actually interest me.

      One of my other friends worked at a coffee shop until she found a job she wanted almost a year later. She was happy living further outside the city and with three other roommates while searching for the perfect job.

      NOTE: I was super lucky to have some savings I could use during the months I didn’t have a full-time position. If you don’t, I’d strongly advise that finding a job should be your first plan of attack with an idea of where you will live while job hunting.

  68. Amber Rose*

    My employee review went well. I was only marked low on initiative, but that’s not a negative against me it’s just a statement of fact: I don’t have a lot of initiative, I mostly just do the work I’m assigned. I’m not really expected to change that or anything though. Thankfully. I’m the opposite of ambitious.

    All of my audits were decided on yesterday and I’m experiencing some pretty amazing anxiety about it all. You wouldn’t think it would be such a big damn deal after 5 years but it’s nerve wracking to just go into some random company with my baby face and be like, hey I’m here to judge you completely and write a report about it. Also my steel toes are pink. They were the only ones I could find that fit. :|

    I am looking forward to working from home for a few days though.

    1. Lizard*

      Would you mind going a little more into what you do? I work as a project engineer for a contractor and I’m hoping to maybe move into some QC/auditing work later on, rather than working on projects that are over a year long and drag on forever… Not sure if you’re in the construction field or something else, but figured I’d ask!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Putting my actual ridiculous title aside, I’m essentially a safety manager. I was certified by the government as a safety auditor a few years ago, which means I sometimes get called to go into other companies and thoroughly go through their whole safety system to make sure it’s up to government standards. I do this for my own company on a yearly basis as well. Every three years someone else comes to audit us.

        I’m not in construction but I am in manufacturing, which means I sometimes end up auditing smaller construction companies, since they try to keep me roughly within my own field but it doesn’t always happen that way. So my standard audit kit includes PPE and steel toes, since some companies don’t let you in the front door without them.

        I’m slowly starting to work more in QC these days as well, but our QC manager assures me that his audits are considerably less work. That said, the day to day management of his department is much more involved and busy, while managing safety is more or less a part time effort for me.

    2. Hillary*

      I wish they sold womens safety shoes without any pink in the US. The loaner shoes at our plants in Germany and Poland are both sane colors (I think every size was blue). The Wolverine ones I have now aren’t terrible, I switched out the pink laces and the pink lining is covered by my jeans.

      Next pair I’m just buying in Europe.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Seriously. I hate being pink ghettoed. I’m glad my feet have spread out enough that I now just wear a men’s size. If it has to be bright colored let me do orange or green.

  69. INeverLearnedHowToNetworkOops*

    Am I screwed?
    So I”m a fairly recent college grad (within the last 2 years), and I’m currently working a temporary assistant role in support of the General Assembly of my state legislature. It’s my first full-time/office/non-retail job ever, and it ends in about three weeks. I was told when interviewing that if I did well, my coworkers could help get me placed in a permanent role (and they cited examples of past assistants in my role being placed in nonprofit or other government roles). Well, my time here is coming to an end, and I know it’s past time to start thinking about my next moves. Unfortunately I am a very nervous person and obviously very new to the professional world in general, and I’m steeling myself to start asking around, but it’s hard for me to impose on people when I know they’re already busy. I did mention to my boss a few weeks ago that I was applying to jobs again, and when I told her I was interested in nonprofits, she mentioned a specific coworker and said I should talk to him because it’s his specialty. I am really gonna try to talk to him soon – but I’m worried I’ve waited too long as hiring processes usually take months. I do have savings and live in a pretty inexpensive city, but I still don’t want to have to live in fear of not getting a job. Has anyone been in a similar situation? What can I expect?

    1. Another JD*

      Talk to people now. They aren’t going to get less busy until the end of session, which is way too late for your needs.

      1. INeverLearnedHowToNetworkOops*

        Just managed to ask the one coworker about nonprofits, and he recommended I talk to another coworker when I mentioned a specific field, so I’ll get on that soon. I don’t know how helpful the conversation was, because I don’t know how to convey what I really want to ask, which is “hey what did you all mean when you said you could ‘get me placed’ somewhere? How much work does that entail on my part?” Obviously I will have to do some of the heavy lifting here, and now I feel like I definitely waited too long, but I did also have a tricky week not long ago where I made a lot of mistakes and it wouldn’t have been the best time to ask about future prospects.
        But I’m trying now, and I guess that’s the only thing I can do. Plus I figure if I really do end up unemployed in a few weeks, I can at least fully devote myself to job searching and really pump out a bunch of applications. Trying not to freak out too much yet.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      You’re not imposing on people. This is literally part of their jobs (and will likely help position *you* to help *them* later on).

      1. INeverLearnedHowToNetworkOops*

        How can I expect them to help me? Should I just apply to jobs and ask for them to put in a good word for me? Again, I honestly have no idea how to network lol. I appreciate the affirmation though.

        1. pamplemousse*

          Approach this as an opportunity to make connections and learn more about the field or potential opportunities. Don’t go into it looking for a strict quid-pro-quo or with a firm ask right at the outset. Here’s how a conversation like this can go:

          –Initial contact (someone you know): “Hi! My contract will be coming to an end soon and I’m starting to look for new opportunities. Would you have some time next week to meet for coffee and talk with me about your career path?”
          –Initial contact (someone you don’t): “Hi! I’m [name] and I’m a temporary assistant on the Water Services Committee. My contract is coming to an end in a few months, and I’m interested in getting into [their field]. Would you have a few minutes to meet me sometime next week?”

          Then during the conversation, you’ll want to:
          -Tell them a little about yourself and what you’re doing
          -Tell them about what kind of work you’re looking for
          -Ask how they got where they did and their career path
          -Ask what they like and dislike about what they do
          -Ask if they have advice for you
          -Ask what they’d look for in someone they were looking to hire

          And then, near the end, you can say something like “I’m thinking of applying for this job in Joe Smith’s office — do you know anything about that role?” which gives them the chance to offer to put in a word for you. Don’t ask for something like that straight out unless it’s someone you’ve worked with closely and are pretty confident they’d say yes.

          Finally, don’t forget to network with people at your level, too. Those connections might seem useless right now if you’re all trying to get jobs. But in 3 or 5 years you’ll be really glad you made them. Nearly all of my opportunities have come through lateral networking rather than the upward kind.

    3. TerraTenshi*

      You did wait too late but it’s not the end of the world.

      Start talking to people now, they aren’t going to get less busy between now and when you’re gone and if they’ve been there any length of time they’ll be used to this. Sometimes having a well placed contact can shorten the interview process but not always. Which leads to the next point.

      You might also want to start applying on your own now. Interviews and job hunting take time, the longer you can give yourself the easier it’ll turn out. How confident you are that you can get interviews for jobs you want without the help of your coworkers and/or how much you’ll need the money will dictate how much time and effort you want to put into job searching on your own but at the very least finding what’s out there can be helpful and it may put you in a position to say “company X is hiring for Y role that sounds like a good fit, do you know anyone who works there?”

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, I’d definitely agree that you should do some applying on your own and not rely on your contacts to find you something. Plus particularly where nonprofit work is involved you may find something that sounds interesting that you didn’t realize was out there (this is basically how I got my current nonprofit job).

    4. Joielle*

      I assume that three weeks from now is when your legislative session ends? If that’s the case, you probably won’t be able to make much progress before then, unfortunately. I used to be legislative staff and the last few weeks are crazy – people probably won’t have a ton of time for anything other than wrapping up their work.

      With legislative networking in general – the idea is that a lot of legislators and people involved with politics have connections to businesses and organizations that are looking for employees, and a good word from a well-connected person can help you get hired, or they can help you find out about positions that aren’t posted. People talk, and they like to feel important.

      The thing about politics is that 99% of the people ALWAYS have their eye out for their next career move, so it’s not weird to be really upfront that after this position, you want to do X. People are often happy to connect you with other people they know who do that thing. Eventually a job in that area opens up and either someone gives you a heads up, or you apply on your own and reach out to the people you know to tell them you applied and ask them to put in a good word.

      At this point, I’d probably focus on doing an awesome job through the end of session. Try to go above and beyond, make people’s lives easier, be calm in stressful situations… as a junior staffer you don’t have a lot of influence, but you can be an absolute lifesaver, and that’s how you want people to think of you.

      After session, reach out to people you interacted with who might be able to connect you to something you’re interested in. Say something like: “I had such an awesome experience working with you on [X project] this past session, thank you so much for your guidance. Now that session is over, I’m looking to move into the nonprofit sector and I’d be so grateful if you could point me in the direction of any open positions that you know of or anyone I could talk to for advice. I really enjoyed being involved with [issue] and am hoping to continue that work.” Of course, tailor to your interests, and don’t be afraid to flatter people! Everyone likes hearing that they had a good impression on someone, and everyone likes being able to help someone start their career.

      Good luck! I don’t do legislative work anymore, but it was a really great place to start my career and I made a ton of connections.

  70. Q without U*

    Any recommendations for good noise cancelling headphones that also work well with Skype for Business? I’ve been doing research, but it seems hard to find headphones that do both well.

    1. Nom de Plume*

      Are you open to using earbuds? I have some cheapo Panasonic earbuds that do a really good job of physically blocking out external noise. I use them for Skype meetings but also for listening to music. They block normal office noise really well; someone can stand next to me and talk at a normal volume and I don’t really hear them.

      1. Q without U*

        It’s an idea, but might not be practical in my office, which tends to reply on the visual clue of someone wearing headphones. If I were wearing earbuds, people would assume I was just ignoring them.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Mine are Plantronics BT600 and they work pretty well with Skype. I haven’t had to rely on the noise cancelling to really judge it, but it does make a difference.

  71. KayDeeAye*

    I would like my company to consider awarding employees more sick days. We get 7 sick days per year, which I realize isn’t too bad, and we have flexibility for things like doctor’s visits, which we generally don’t have to take PTO for. But still, 7 days can be sucked up really quickly and easily by, say, a bad cold, a couple of migraines and some oral surgery. And if you have kids that get sick (which is to say, nearly all kids), it goes even faster.

    So…has anybody any experience with this? Any advice? What are the arguments I’m likely to encounter, and how can I address them?

    1. Fikly*

      Make it in their interest to give you more sick days, which is to say, you have to convince them that it’s more expensive to have you come to work sick, than stay home sick (and paid).

      So point out that sick employees are not only less productive, but more likely to make mistakes, that then take time to fix, and can potentially cost money depending on what the job is. Plus, the longer you work while sick, the longer you stay sick. And then on top of that, sick employees get other employees sick, which then compounds the whole issue.

      It’s actually cheaper for them, in the long term, to give you enough paid sick days, but humans (and companies) are bad at long term thinking.

  72. Working from home*

    I feel like there’s been posts on this, but I haven’t been able to find them. If working from home a few days a week is nonnegotiable for you, how would you go about job hunting? Should I bring it up in the interview or wait for an offer?

    1. Cleopatra*

      I would definitely bring it up in the interview. Maybe not the first interview, but definitely the second.

      Waiting for the offer is not recommended, as maybe for them a few days a week is not acceptable. So they better give you an offer in full knowledge of the facts.

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed, mention it in the interview. Generally speaking: The more impact your ask has (either to the company’s workflow or your willingness to take the job), the earlier you should generally bring it up.
        And in this case, it works on both ends – it’s non-negotiable for you, but the company might also find it to be a complete non-starter for various reasons (tech issues, security reasons, culture/preferences, regular in-person meetings, etc).
        So there’s no sense in waiting, spending time on the hiring process…only to find that it’s completely non-feasible.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I say discuss it with the hiring manager, so probably second (hopefully phone) interview, so neither party has invested too much time into the process.

  73. Wannabe Volunteer*

    How and after what amount of time does one follow up on an application for a volunteer position? I know Alison kind of dissuades people from doing much follow up on job applications these days, but volunteering feels different. My friends who have worked for non-profits that work with a lot of volunteers have told me that volunteer coordination can be kind of disorganized, stuff slips through the cracks, so it’s best to follow up.

    What do y’all think is an appropriate time frame? How would you word the follow up? For context, I called two weeks ago to the phone number supposedly for their volunteer coordinator (from the volunteering section of their website) and reached someone else, who took my name and email and said someone would get back to me. The following Monday, I submitted an application through their website. Haven’t heard back. I would be a little surprised if they don’t need people – they’re a domestic violence organization with a hotline in a pretty densely populated area, and my experience with suicide hotline volunteering is they always need people for the phones. Still, I’d be happy for them if they really are fully staffed, but I’d just like to know!

    1. hello everyone*

      Totally agree that it’s different. I think you can follow up with them once more, at least. Whoever is coordinating the volunteers is so busy that they don’t have time for it, which is why they need volunteers.

    2. Gundelfinger Account Manager*

      Next week follow-up with a phone call asking about the status of your online application. If they say they don’t know about it (that person isn’t available) or whatnot, let them know you really want to volunteer and have experience.

      Still don’t hear anything? Follow up with an email and I would cc: it to the Director of that department (if there is on it might be the Development Director or Programs) explaining how much you’d love to volunteer with them, your skills set, when you applied online and the two times you’ve followed up with a phone call. Keep it clean and simple, but with facts of how many times you’ve reached out and be friendly.

      Their response might be immediate – because you gained someone else’s attention – and hopefully apologetic with a “We’re so busy and short-staffed’ which isn’t an excuse when they’re advertising for volunteers. Ask for the next steps and what you should expect from them. Don’t let a slew of emails go back and forth – they should go right to ‘Here are our training dates’ when can we sign you up?”

      Yes, in many non-profits volunteer recruitment is disorganized which doesn’t lend well to advertising their competency and care for volunteers. If a volunteer feels that they’re not at least being acknowledged then how will they be treated when they’re ‘working’ for them? It also makes me wonder how they manage volunteers throughout their lifecycle – onboarding, training, maintenance, reward, and retention?

      Poor volunteer response is a deal killer for me and I’ve been a volunteer manager during my two decades of non-profit service. However, some people persist because of their passion for the work. Sounds like your experience and skills will be useful to them (being so unique).

      Becoming a volunteer shouldn’t be onerous. It should feel welcoming and heartfelt.

      Good luck

    3. Just a question*

      I work for a domestic violence organization with a hotline in a pretty densely populated area, and I would encourage you to follow up. Unless this is a large org with clear processes & minimal turnover in the volunteer management/program management area, they may need the nudge and be grateful for your enthusiasm.

  74. hello everyone*

    How much busy work type things can you give an intern, if it’s part of your own role? Some of the things that would be most helpful for an intern to do are some of the least exciting thing I do, but they are still essential to the role (data entry, organization of donations, etc). This isn’t filling or anything, these are things specific to what I do, and I feel comfortable having the intern do some of it to meet their educational goals. Where is the line where I am giving them too much of this kind of work? Especially when it’s far easier to provide them opportunities in these areas then in the more challenging ones.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      That is the point of an intern. Yeah its great if you can pull them in on the more challenging stuff, but the reality is an intern is there to learn about the day to day grind.
      When I had interns a few jobs ago they were each given 4-5 daily reporting/busy work duties and a larger season long project. Worked out well for everyone as they helped clear a backlog and were able to get a better idea of which area of our field they were bet suited to.

    2. Qwerty*

      Can you occasionally bring them into more interesting or important meetings as an observer? If the items that an intern is qualified to do are not exciting, take time each week to show them the more interesting parts of the job or the company. That way they can see what the role turns into for a more experienced person in that field so they can get an idea if that is job they would one day want to have.

    3. OtterB*

      Years ago in a book or article about management I read that an ideal task to delegate is one that is routine for you but a learning opportunity for the person you’re delegating to. So it seems like those tasks fit the bill. As CupcakeCounter said, maybe pair it with a longer-term project, perhaps off your list of things it would be nice to have done but that won’t ever rise to the top of your priority list.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Give at least some to them, but also give them the context. Yes, this part is boring. But then x, y,z happens and this impacts a,b,c….

    5. CheeryO*

      Honestly, I think it’s fine if that’s all an intern does, but it would be nice if you could identify a long-term project for them to work on and also maybe pull them in to some meetings now and then, just to observe.

    6. pamplemousse*

      Give them as much context and information surrounding the tasks as you can: This is why we do data entry this way, this is why it’s important to organize donations like this, this format is standard across all nonprofits like ours, this is a special system we developed and here’s why. I frame annoying busywork tasks as an opportunity to learn about how our organization runs and … it’s actually kind of true!

      I think you can do almost 100% busywork for the first couple of weeks, particularly if you’re exposing them passively to other higher-level stuff. If they’re reliable and hardworking, think about what you can scaffold up a level or two once they’ve mastered those systems.

    7. Cap. Marvel*

      When I interned, something I was forever grateful for was my co-worker giving me some busy work that I ended learning a lot from.
      Once, he needed me to do some pivot tables and was shocked that I had never heard of them. He made a meeting with me to teach me, then gave me a data set he had used to make one before. He let me play around with it and once I was comfortable with it, he gave me more to do.
      I also had to attend board meetings for him and take minutes, which gave me an opportunity to ask him questions about why we were doing X when I thought we should do Y. Once he realized that I was a decent proofreader, he sent me some proposals to look over where I learned a ton about the projects our agency was funding.
      I miss him so much; he was the best co-worker/mentor ever.

  75. Non-profit burnout*

    Should I run far, far away, or stick it out? I started a new position as the senior manager of a large team at a non-profit at the beginning of January. I knew almost immediately that it wasn’t a good fit for me – my two bosses (who lead the organization) are bullies, and the rest of management has a great deal of contempt for their own staff.

    I was contractually required to give a month’s notice even though this job has a six-month trial period. (In retrospect, that provision in my contract should have tipped me off that this was a toxic workplace.) I offered to stick around part time to the end of the fiscal year in March to help manage some projects with a hard, government-imposed deadline. I offered this because I felt bad for leaving immediately, and I know the organization will flounder without someone to see these projects through to the end. I was self-employed before this job, so I’m not terribly worried about leaving without something else lined up, although I had been planning to include this job as a “management consultant” line in my resume.

    So basically: the part time position is supposed to start next week. But ever since I gave notice, my two bosses have arranged things so that I have very slim odds at succeeding (taking two or three people off my project team, cutting project funds, asking me to fire a vendor seven weeks out from our deadline). They ignore my emails and refuse to make eye contact with me in the hallway. They’ve threatened to cut my salary, which we had agreed would be prorated to what I’m currently making. Yet they’ve screamed in my face* at meetings when I’ve suggested that perhaps it would be best to terminate our professional relationship now, as opposed to later on. And what’s more, it’s the end of the week and I don’t have a contract yet, because my boss only came to work once this week.

    Should I stick around and endure five more weeks of open contempt and sabotage just so I can include a line in my resume? This place is seriously damaging my mental health, and I suspect I will not be permitted to do my job properly.

    * Literally. I saw a discussion on here a few days ago about how many people are not telling the truth about yelling. I am.

    2. WellRed*

      Leave. It sounds toxic and a five-month tenure isn’t worth listing on your resume (it also sounds like you would be misrepresenting the role slightly, too but I apologize if I am misreading that).

    4. animaniactoo*

      You offered it for your own benefit, but that was based on it being a benefit for them. They clearly do not intend for it to be any kind of a benefit to you, or graceful about whatever benefit it would be to them.

      Don’t torture yourself, run now: “Unfortunately, while I made this offer in good faith, it appears that the resources to manage it are not available and I can’t move forward on this basis. Therefore, X date will be my final day.”

      1. Non-profit burnout*

        Thank you for this script! It’s perfect. It’s been difficult to maintain my professionalism around this level of interpersonal drama, so I really appreciate the neutral comment about resource availability.

    5. KayDeeAye*

      Yes, get the heck-fire out of there. All you’d be working for is a line on a resume – not meaningful experience, it sounds like – plus a boatload of stress and toxicity.

      Run. Run fast, run far, and thank your lucky stars that you don’t have to work there any more.

    6. Forkeater*

      Today seems like a good day to be your last day there. I would probably just leave right now and block their numbers.

  76. Book Pony*

    I’m trying not to read too much into things, but I think things are going well with the job I applied to. (Really resisting the urge to read the emails again, but what does that wink emoji really meannnnnn? J/k but my brain lol)

    Hopefully the fact that they asked for references and proof of my credentials means things will start chugging a little faster.

    I really need to get out of here, because my boss recently used the phrase “Oriental women”. Among other “delightful” phrases I’ve been hearing recently. (Nothing like the coronavirus to bring out the anti-Asian sentiment /s)

    Hope everyone who’s job hunting is having success as well!

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I’m so frustrated with all the racism surrounding the coronavirus panic. I am part Asian but am white passing and the things people think they can say in front of me are just disgusting, I can’t imagine what a person who looks Asian has to deal with.

    2. Curmudgeon in California*

      I don’t understand why the prejudice is so rampant, either. It’s only really an issue if the person has traveled to Wuhan recently, and that doesn’t even mean that the traveler is Asian.

      Then again, people from the SF Bay Area got a lot of sh!t when the AIDS epidemic was at its peak.

      People have weird stereotypes and prejudices. It’s very disappointing.

      I wish you luck in escaping your current toxic workplace.

  77. frugiyos*

    I’m going back & forth over an issue with a co-worker who’s performance is just not great. I keep telling myself that it’s my manager’s problem to solve & to mind my own business, but I find myself cringing when he takes on work that I doubt he’ll complete as well as anyone else on the team would.

    One example, he recently took on a task that should have take a few days. He spent six weeks on it, did not request any help or even mention what direction he was taking, then showed the rest of the team his final product, & we didn’t even know what to do with it (how to incorporate it into the bigger project). At that point, since this smaller task was blocking other work (again, for six weeks), I jumped in & redid the task, integrating it with the bigger project in a single afternoon. I really wasn’t trying to show him up, I was just frustrated.

    He constantly complains about not having work to do, but whatever work he does take on will often be poorly completed (not at all what we needed) or he’ll go to the other extreme & try to make it “perfect”, spending way too much time on it & ultimately, it’s not perfect — it just doesn’t work. I guess the issue is, he doesn’t see how what he’s doing fits in with what the team is working on. How his spending too much time on a task interferes with other work getting done. How spending weeks on a task only to have to redo it is not helpful. This has been going on for a year & a half at least.

    I keep thinking he should start to improve, ask for coaching, or something. I don’t know what my obligations are to him, the team, my manager. For all I know, my manager is working with him. But maybe not. Frustratingly, we’ll be getting a new employee soon & I keep thinking “if this guy got some coaching & performed at the same level as others on the team, we wouldn’t need another person”.

    1. NicoleK*

      If it’s impacting your work or the team, then go to your boss. Your boss may not know about the issue. And they can’t fix it if no one tells them.

    2. ELM*

      Who is responsible for training him? Because it sounds as if his training has been minimal, or he’s not understood it. I’d speak to his manager; lay out the problems and suggest re-training or further training. But make sure his manager is fully informed.

  78. Where do people job hunt?*

    This is sortof a random question and probably won’t apply to me for a long time…

    But where does your average white collar job hunter look for job postings? I know “online” but where? I always thought of sites like Indeed as sortof spammy sales-type jobs but maybe not? I’ve been a fed for a couple decades so have used usajobs exclusively. Everyone I know who has left federal service & continued to work either was headhunted by a related private industry, opened their own consulting/contracting business, or did word of mouth to turn a hobby into a second career post-retirement.

    Now I’m curious what the rest of the “normal” world does!

    1. Lyudie*

      Curious to hear this too. I have used ZipRecruiter and Glassdoor as well as Indeed in the past. ZipRecruiter is nice because you get updates on the status of your application so it’s a little less like sending your application into a black hole. I think applying directly on company sites is probably best if that’s possible. LinkedIn is really easy to apply with but it seems like lots of openings aren’t posted there.

    2. Count Boochie Flagrante*

      I usually go straight to the careers page of individual companies — but this is feasible for me because I tend to like big megacorp environments with a lot of name recognition.

      1. corporate engineering layoff woo*

        This has been my tactic, too. I only apply through Indeed when it’s the simpler option than dealing with the company’s site. Job listing alerts might be handy, but it depends on how effectively you can get an accurate job title for the search.

    4. NJBi*

      Idealist and individual organizations’ job boards. I tried ZipRecruiter when I was fresh out of college and it was absolutely godawful, full of scam operations–I could go on. Indeed, Glassdoor, and LinkedIn never lead me to any positions of interest.

    5. Amy Sly*

      I’ve had decent luck with ZipRecruiter (how I got my current job) and LinkedIn (the job I’m interviewing for in a week). Most important thing to keep in mind is that it’s a numbers game. Unless you’re super awesome, you’ll probably only hear back from about 10% of the places to submit a resume. And I agree — the best thing about ZipRecuiter is that it tells you when someone actually looks at your application once, twice, and three times, so you can get a better idea of what industries and job descriptions are more interested in you and target appropriately.

    6. Mia 52*

      I have used Indeed and gotten both my post grad jobs there. Ziprecruiter for me was basically all sales scams and when i posted my resume there I was getting probably 10 calls a day from places I hadnt applied to wanting to “set up an interview” but it was so obviously a scam thing. I would stay away from Ziprecruiter and use Indeed. my 2 cents.

    7. irene adler*

      Might visit industry-specific professional organizations and look to their career pages. This would be for national as well as local sites.

    8. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In addition to the suggestions above, if you go to a university, they likely will have a career newsletter/website where companies will post jobs. Individual departments may have their own field-specific newsletters/websites.

    9. Salsa Your Face*

      LinkedIn, Indeed, and Glassdoor are the most above board in my experience. Ziprecruiter is hit or miss, at least in my area. They seem to have less control over who posts ads, which means that there are a lot of scams, but there are also a lot of external recruiters. I got some legitimate interviews through Ziprecruiter, but I had to spend a lot of time figuring out which ads were legit and which weren’t.

      Outside of that, I also recommend looking up individual companies in your area and seeing the jobs that they have posted. Especially if they’re large companies, because they don’t always use the external sites.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      I use Indeed, LinkedIn, and Glassdoor, primarily. Although I created an account so I could save jobs on Indeed and Glassdoor, I DO NOT upload a resume to those sites. This is based on poor experiences with Careerbuilder (worthless and full of spam) and Monster.

      I’ve also used the state career center’s job board. That’s how I found OldExjob. But ours changed their interface and now it’s extremely non-intuitive and click-heavy, so I abandoned it. Most of the jobs posted there are also posted elsewhere. If I have interest in a particular company, I just go to their website careers page.

  79. Vanilla Latte with an Xtra Shot*

    Weird interview story ahead…

    My area at work is going through major changes. In short, my role is changing. I had already decided at the beginning of last year to begin looking for a new role, for various reasons. I’ve had external and internal interviews but no offers yet.

    My most recent internal interview process was…strange. I applied for a role, went through several interviews and then crickets. I reached out to the hiring manager for an update. He asked if he could call me.

    He calls me and tells me an external candidate has been identified. He proceeded to tell me that the candidate doesn’t have the business knowledge I have, the application skills, and no baseline knowledge of our industry (cat herding). This person does have a doctorate degree but no work experience. He mentioned I had all of the above plus a strong “internal brand and known as getting stuff done.” He then mentioned that he was looking for someone with a degree in cat herding specifically. I have a degree in this (which he may have forgotten). He also mention looking for a “special unicorn” (actual words) and that they may change the job description and role posting.

    It was so awkward, y’all. I couldn’t wait to get off the phone. I certainly didn’t try to sell myself further for the job – I just politely thanked him for the feedback and moved on.

    The following week, I got a rejection notice. This week, I got an email from hiring manager, asking to see my resume again. Fine – I sent it but I have no expectations.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Depending on how desperate you are, I’m not sure I would want to work for that guy. Just reading about him gave me a case of the nope nopes.

      1. Vanilla Latte with an Xtra Shot*

        Yeah, that’s how I’m leaning too. I wouldn’t say I’m desperate to find another job, so I’m not sure jumping into this particular role would be a good next step. I just thought the whole situation was rather strange!

  80. Shiny*

    Accommodations mishap . . .

    I spoke to HR about accommodations for travel, as I often have to travel very long distances for short times. My doctor wrote a letter requesting business class accommodations, but given the field I work in and its tight budgets, this isn’t always feasible. I tried to let HR know that my major concern was not having projects not have me travel because I’m more expensive, but they’re not hearing or taking my concerns seriously.

    I have an upcoming trip for which the business class ticket would have cost $7-10K. For a project in closeout, this is a totally unsustainable cost (my whole trip to SE Asia is budgeted at around $3K, including hotel and per diem). I had to fight really hard to get HR to allow me to even float alternative accommodations, which in the end, are how we’re proceeding (I’m adding a day off to my trip on each end after flying). But it has been a tremendous struggle to get HR to see that a blanket requirement of business class travel is going to interfere with me having the optimal conditions to do my job, and I’m just wondering, is it standard for HR not to want to be flexible on these sorts of things? I’m really regretting handling this through HR at this point.

    1. WellRed*

      It seems like the problem with the budget doesn’t take into account the cost of your travel. Who is in charge of setting these budgets? Where is your boss in all of this?

    2. Kathenus*

      This is outside of my area of expertise, but from reading your post I wonder if one disconnect here is that your doctor’s letter specifically requests business class accommodation, but you are also saying that there are other ways to meet your needs so that you aren’t excluded from projects where the business class flights are cost prohibitive for the organization (i.e. potentially not considered a reasonable accommodation). Could you work with your doctor to amend/update your accommodation request to offer more options (such as the one you say you’re using on this trip of days on either end) to accommodate your needs and take out the more specific language currently in it that only seems to refer to business class flights as being the only appropriate option?

      1. valentine*

        one disconnect here is that your doctor’s letter specifically requests business class accommodation
        This is the issue I see. You told them business class, but are now saying less is fine, you priority is to fulfill your travel obligations rather than your bodily ones, and the project budget can determine your accommodation. Ask your doctor to amend the request. If you travel economy, what do you need for that to be viable? Are you only able to travel economy once every x trips? Do you need z amount of leg room or the opportunity to walk?

        1. Ama*

          Yeah I suspect the problem here is they are worried that you might suffer ill effects from not traveling in business class and then say you felt pressured into ignoring your doctor’s orders for budget reasons.

          You may need a new letter from your doctor softening the language (maybe “business class accommodation when feasible” or propose that the extra leg room economy seats will also work, if that is the case).

    3. Another JD*

      What is the reason for need business class flights? Potentially tripling the trip budget sounds like it might meet the test for an undue hardship depending on the organization, so you should look into what other accommodations may meet your needs.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      I can understand travelling business class not being feasible/practical. I work in academia with international projects. There’s a set travel/project budget for the year, and business class for one person on a trip like this would mean 3 or 4 other trips having to be cancelled. So I can also see how this would make you a liability for other projects. It would only work if the extra money came from outside the project budget. And as you say, trans-Pacific business class is extremely expensive! The practical solution in our case would probably be arranging things so someone else would do the travel, or if possible (say for meetings), having you switch to a night schedule and telecon in rather than going in person.

      I think the first thing is to figure out what you actually need. Do you need business class travel, or is economy plus/aisle row and extra time to recover sufficient? Can you do a layover part way through on some trips to split the trip up? (I know trans-Pacific is pretty low on lay-over stops). If there are non business class options, go back to the doctor and get a revised note. The doctor may have been putting down the best option, thinking of private business where travelling business class is more standard (or actually allowed!) or thinking of domestic flights, where the expense is not as high. Then go back to HR with the revised recommendations.

  81. Quaremie*

    When giving feedback, how can you convey that someone isn’t a great critical thinker without it coming across as offensive? On a large team of people, I have some that are very sharp, they notice something different and try to figure it out. Others just do their routine tasks and if something doesn’t fit into one of the tasks they’ve been trained on, because there’s something unique about it, they either don’t notice or ignore it. But on their performance reviews, this is often what makes the difference between “doing a consistently good job” and “going above and beyond”. I’d love to give feedback but I don’t want to hurt them.

    If I bring up a case at the time, I can explain why it’s different and how to recognize that, and often get a, “ohhhhh….” kind of response, but nothing clicks the next time a unique situation pops up. And even then, as I walk them through different scenarios, there are new ones I can’t predict and that’s where their critical thinking skills need to come in. Thoughts?

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      I am so subscribed to this thread. I have one of these employees right now and with performance reviews looming next month I am really sweating this right now.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “lacks ability in (or is weak on) recognizing and solving unique issues that do not fit standard patterns.”

    3. Chili*

      I think if you otherwise like this employee and plan on keeping them, I would keep the critique focused on what’s needed from a work perspective and pose it as a challenge for the upcoming year. Something like, “Consistently does a good job with standard tasks like X, Y, Z, but I’d like to see more initiative taken with unusual problems and tasks that don’t fit into discrete categories, like A, B, and C”

      In general, for reviews I would stay away from general statements about how someone “is” or “isn’t” just because you really can only be assessing the work output and criticism like that isn’t helpful to anyone. Saying someone “isn’t a critical thinker” isn’t really actionable and probably isn’t true. Maybe they aren’t flexing their critical thinking muscle in this specific regard, but they probably are a critical thinker in many facets of their life. Likewise, once at my first grocery store gig I received criticism that I wasn’t “creative enough.” Which, 1) by creative, they meant coming up with new ways to do fraud, so I left 2) Most people in my life consider me a really creative person, so hearing this from an employer was very confusing and made me feel very unsure of myself for a long time with no actionable recourse

      1. Quaremie*

        I like this: ““Consistently does a good job with standard tasks like X, Y, Z, but I’d like to see more initiative taken with unusual problems and tasks that don’t fit into discrete categories, like A, B, and C”

        Thanks for your response! And I agree, I would never want to paint someone with a broad brush like that. But I’m trying to figure out how to explain to someone why they are getting a “3/5” – as in, someone who does their job consistently well – vs. a 4/5, someone who is taking that extra step.

        1. Chili*

          I’ve always found people are really receptive to a middling score as long as there is a clear and achievable path laid out to get a higher score in the next review. I was really frustrated to receive an average score this year for “customer oriented.” I am a software engineer and I do take a lot of initiative to be customer oriented: I sit in on client-calls once a month even though it isn’t required, I always consider client needs in design, etc.. I explained that but my manager couldn’t give me examples of more I could do or why what I was doing wasn’t considered a 5 or 6 out of 7 rather than a 4/7.

          It’s really wonderful when someone just jumps into a role and understands implicitly how to be stellar rather than just average, but that will not be the case for most employees and it’s a manager’s job to help employees reach their full potential, which starts by laying out clear expectations.

          1. Chili*

            If my manager had said, “to get a higher score, here are some examples of what you can do” I’d understand the assessment better and be fine with it, it’s just having this weird amorphous category score that I don’t know how to improve that is really frustrating.

            1. Quaremie*

              Totally get it. I will make sure I have some examples available for each employee. This makes a lot of sense and I think it was floating around amorphously in my head, but I was worried about it coming across as a comparison to other employees, which I don’t want to do.

              Thanks again!

    4. Close Bracket*

      I’d love to give feedback but I don’t want to hurt them.

      You can’t control how another person responds. You can be kind and direct, and that’s about it. If you accept that they might be hurt, it might be easier to come up with kind, direct language.

      1. Quaremie*

        That’s true, but I want to phrase the statements such that they are getting actual useful feedback, but as Chili said above, phrase it in terms of their work and output rather than their personal characteristics. Saying to someone “You’re not a critical thinker” would be hurtful, but saying “In order for you to get to that next step, I’d like to see more recognition of rare situations and attempts at independent analyses before you bring it to me” is less likely to be taken personally.

        1. Close Bracket*

          “You’re not a critical thinker” would be hurtful,

          OK, so instead of thinking how not to be hurtful, frame it so you are thinking about what is actionable. Bc “not a critical thinker” is not really actionable. It might be true, but it’s too broad. “Attempt independent analysis before bringing it to me” is actionable, as long as you use examples to make it more concrete.

    5. Henriette*

      Maybe something along the lines of “still needs to develop abilities in creative problem-solving”?

    6. pamplemousse*

      1) Describe behaviors not attributes! “John is reliable on routine tasks, but doesn’t always recognize when a task is out of the ordinary” or “John will sometimes struggle or stall when faced with an unfamiliar task” or whatever he actually does, not “John is not a critical thinker.”

      2) Describe what needs to change. If the issue is just getting stuck/immediately asking for help rather than problem solving: “This year, I’d like to see John really rise to the occasion on these more difficult moments” and then describe what a good employee would do. If it’s poor judgment/not reading the situation, are there triggers he should be looking out for that will let him know? Really think about what a great employee does and try to break it down and make it as specific as possible.

      It’s frustrating because this stuff FEELS intuitive if you’re good at it, but usually it can be broken down with enough time and thought. Not enough to make a just-OK employee into a great above-and-beyond one in every situation, but certainly enough to move someone from a 5 to a 6 on a scale of 1 to 10, or whatever.

    7. CM*

      Hm. This is tough. If they’re already doing a “consistently good job” without being able to notice this stuff, it might not be worth pushing on it too much.

      That said, if you’re right in your assessment, and the issue is that they either don’t notice when there’s a non-standard element in the assignment or they ignore it, ignoring it is an easier thing to change. For example, you could ask everyone (not just these particular team members) to start making note of any non-standard elements they noticed and how they decided to address them in order to contextualize their work when you or whoever else reviews it. That might be enough to prompt people to take action or else justify why they didn’t.

      If the issue is that they’re not noticing it in the first place… people differ in their ability to spot patterns and details, and it’s possible that you just have to resign yourself to the fact that some of your team will always be better at this than others, especially if it’s more of a “nice to have” than a required skill. No matter how much somebody wants to notice something that doesn’t naturally catch their attention, it’s pretty hard to force that to happen.

  82. Suggestions for how to care less about my work?*

    I found out this week that I didn’t receive a competitive fellowship offered through my work (for additional professional development funding; we get $500/year normally and can apply to the fellowship if we want to do something that costs more than that).

    I’m slightly disappointed not to be able to do the training that I had applied for. But whatever, you win some, you lose some.

    But it feels like the last straw in my relationship with my employer. I’ve been here 5 years, and they have, at every available opportunity, demonstrated that they don’t value me. I’ve had the highest performance ratings in my division every year since I’ve been here, but have had to fight tooth and nail to be paid equally to the men in the same role. And now this? I’m just done. I’m not planning to leave because there are things about my work that make it worthwhile to me, but I’m not going to keep investing my energy and commitment to it.

    But that’s not in my nature. I’m deeply committed to my work, and I want to be less committed. But how can I retrain my mind to treat this job as “just a job”?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Instead of training yourself to think of it as “just a job,” train yourself to think of it as “providing the things that make it worthwhile,” and maintain your commitment to maintaining those worthwhile things. Make it a gratitude practice.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’m in a similar boat. One exercise I’m doing is treating it like an experiment. “If I stop going above and beyond on [XYZ non-core functions/roles], how does the team respond and compensate?”

      I’m also burned-out, so my challenge is NOT disengaging, which sounds like the opposite of your problem.

    3. CM*

      I think this is a bad plan. From what you wrote, it sounds like the exchange you have with your workplace ISN’T worthwhile for you anymore, and that’s why you’re frustrated with it. But also maybe right now it seems like the best of a bad set of options, so you’d like to be able to power off the parts of you that care about things like feeling respected and so on so that you can endure it.

      I would encourage you to try to find some other options — ones that are better than this, or ones that suck equally, but in different or varied ways. It sounds counter-intuitive, but sometimes bailing on a situation that sucks in one way for a situation that sucks in a different way can be a good change of pace.

      I would also encourage you to make a plan for what you want to do in the medium to long-term future and make sure that staying in this situation fits inside your plan, if that’s what you want to do. If tolerating the BS at this particular workplace for X amount of time will bring you closer to an important goal, it’ll be easier to deal with, especially if reaching the goal will help you leave.

    4. andy*

      Have a look at alternatives anyway. They may have worthwhile properties too – don’t stay just because this workplace seems super unique in whatever the worthwhile thing is. Chances are, they are not as unique as they and you think.

      Also, the non explicit sexism in rewards and assignents will always be problem there. And the worst thing for you is internalize the unsaid attitude.

      The “I don’t want to care about job” might even be first step toward that internalization. If you succeed, it may harm you in future workplaces amd in the long term in this one too.

  83. Mill Miker*

    I have some good work news I”d like to share, as I’m trying less to be a little cloud of negativity over here.

    Last year I took time off work to attend a conference for a hobby I’m really interested in, that has zero relevance to my current career or any department of my employer. I was making small talk before a meeting one day, and accidentally let it slip that the conference was for people on the professional side of the hobby, or those looking to move in that direction. Think running a petting zoo, vs. just liking to pet animals.

    So my boss immediately asks “Is running a petting zoo something you’d like to do one day?” and I hedged my bets with “Someday, maybe” and she… just… ran with it? Like, “A petting zoo would be great for a team-building event. Give me a proposal, and maybe we can do something.”

    I didn’t think much of it, but then a week later she tells me she’s got buy-in from management, and a promise for approval if the budgets all make sense. I started really thinking about it, but then some other stuff happened and my workload doubled and everything got put aside, so I haven’t thought about it much since.

    Now HR has found out, and is also super excited, and it looks like I’ll be getting dedicated time when my current project wraps up to focus on working out logistics of a temporary petting zoo, with resources and possibly a dedicated team, and I’m just super excited about it all.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Holy crap, this is incredibly cool! What an awesome boss you have. :) I love to see stories like this. Let us know how your petting zoo turns out!

    2. don't fear the reaper*

      Very cool–good for you! Is there any way you could share more details? I’m curious, because I got certified as a personal trainer (totally unrelated to my FT job) last summer and my boss keeps after me to hold team exercise classes out on our lawn! You gotta LOVE a boss that thinks outside the box.

      1. Mill Miker*

        What kind of details? There’s not much I can go into without getting to identifying, other than saying that the petting zoo really does work as a good analogy, as it’s something I’d set up for the day and mostly just keep an eye on without a ton of direct involvement.

        Do you want to run a fitness class? So far all I’ve done for this is show enthusiasm when my boss brings it up, and my boss has done the spearheading, but maybe your boss is waiting for you to make the first move?

        Also, what I’m doing would be almost entirely during work time, if they were looking for a major investment of time outside of work, I might be looking for additional compensation.

        1. don't fear the reaper*

          No worries about details–I was just excited for you (and nosy?). I am leading fitness sessions outside of my FT job, so I get to use the certification, but so far nothing for my work team. My boss is always pushing us to set personal goals, and she jumped on my certification as a team-building thing, but nothing’s been firmed up yet.

  84. Space Cadet*

    I need help! This guy at work always misspells my name in email responses to me. It’s weird, since the correct spelling of my name is RIGHT THERE in my original email.

    He’s in a senior position, but I’m not in his line of command. I don’t work with him on a regular basis, I rarely run into him in person, and I’m not sure if he does this because he’s a little bit of a jerk (confirmed) or just because he’s not great with the written word and grammar (also confirmed).

    I keep meaning to casually correct him via email, but there’s no real reason to other than that it annoys me. Does anyone have a script for this?

      1. valentine*

        “I’d appreciate it is you’d spell my name correctly: Space Cadet. You misspelled it as Spare Valet.”

    2. mercedenne*

      I don’t have a script for this, but this also happens to me more times than I would like. It’s right there in the email! The spelling doesn’t change!

      1. Space Cadet*

        I’ve considered it, and imagined increasing the flamboyance of the misspelling each time to make a point =P

        1. Close Bracket*

          I tried that with someone once, and he didn’t even notice I had misspelled his name.

          I have a chronic misspeller. Each time, I sign my name with “Close Bracket (c before k)”

      2. Former Young Lady*

        My former boss had a rival in another department, and they were in an endless cold war of this type. Think “Danny” and “Terry” persistently addressing each other as “Dani” and “Teri.”

        1. Joielle*

          Ha! I wish they had escalated into ever-more-absurd spelling variations, while pointedly refusing to address it. Danie, Teriye, Danyie, Terriyy, Dayniie, Tyriiee…

      3. Mr. Shark*

        Yes, do that.
        It’s the same with using the wrong version of the name, for example…Mike vs Michael. I always used the wrong version of someone’s name, and then he started using the wrong version of my name everytime he responded.
        At some point when I was going to tell him “IT’S MIKE, NOT MICHAEL!!” I realized I was doing the same thing to him, so I never used his wrong name again, and he responded with Mike every time after that.

    4. Mia 52*

      Happens to me constantly and honestly I’ve just accepted it because everyone does it. And my name is not weird/unusual/atypical for America at all.

    5. Ama*

      Urgh, my husband has a very common first name but uses the less common spelling (it’s not THAT uncommon but it isn’t the one most English speakers default to, think “Mat” instead of “Matt”) — we’ve been together for a decade and got married last year (so lots of things with our names on it got sent around) and I STILL have friends and family who spell his name wrong.

      I’ve come to the conclusion that there are certain people that unless you flat out say “FYI it’s ‘Mat’ with one t, not two” they don’t even pick up on the difference.

    6. Retail not Retail*

      My boss misspelled my last name on the weekly schedule for months. I never said anything but for a few weeks I’d come in (it’s on a bulletin board in the trailer) and write the right letter. He doubled the wrong letter which changes the pronunciation. Also it’s a common word. And we have stuff that has my name in it!

    7. BeenThere*

      I’d correct it once (eg an oh its Jane not Jayne ) then just let it go. My boss’s old boss used to address emails to me with the masculine form of my name, but it was definitely not personal (though I’d bust his chops about it all the time just because he was a good sport and totally didn’t realize he had it wrong originally).

      I’ve now got 2 different colleagues (not immediate team members) who use a variation of my name and while it sometimes confuses me whether its meant for me or another colleague who does have that spelling, it’s just not that big a deal to me. Heck, I’ve done a few myself, most frequently with Brian and Bryan because I work with a few of both, and hope they don’t all sit there seething if I don’t catch it in time! I figure if you’re sending out enough emails, it’s bound to happen, and is especially rough mentally if you’re used to one variant over another new one, or trading a bunch of emails with two similar names in the same day.

      I did once mix up someone’s first and last name, and their response to me addressed to my own last name made me literally LOL and pay more attention when I’m emailing someone for the first time

  85. Silvercat*

    Anybody have recommendations for job boards or recruiters to help me find another graphics production artist job? I’m not a great designer and I don’t have a strong portfolio, but I’m awesome at the boring repetitive stuff (“take this format and change these 100 labels to match it”)

    I got fired this week from my contract job for a petty bs reason, with no warning beforehand (I’ve been told they pull this sort of thing a lot). Honestly, I’m a bit relieved because I’m tired of the company’s disorganization and the pay wasn’t great, but I was hoping to pay off my student loans with it.

    1. NoLongerYoung*

      Late in the day. But had to woo hoo. Had the dreaded annual review. I work at one of those places that supposedly have a 1-5 rating system, but no one ever gets a 4 or a 5. A 2 means you are on a PIP. In (over 12 years) all my time, I’ve managed a 5 once – and that was miraculous. Since then, I’ve done amazing things most years, but… never more than a 3. And even the slackers also get 3s.
      But… I did nearly 1.5-2 peoples work this year (survival, folks… I need this job and I am also passionate about justice and I was on a mission)…. and it was actually recognized. I got higher than a 3. I am pleased they are doing something to keep me. (they know I am under market and working at a higher grade level than they are paying me… it takes a long time to regrade roles here)
      So yes, I may celebrate by turning the heat up one degree this weekend so I only need 2 sweaters in the living room. ROFLOL.

    2. Easily Amused*

      I am a programmer but have a background in design. I worked with the recruiting firm Robert Half at one point while looking for software development positions and every place thought I was a designer who knew a little coding and seemed more excited to find someone who could help with their design. Point being… I think that recruitment firm might have some design leads. They have offices all over. You might also try your local Craigslist if you’re in the US. Sometimes they have listings for small local gigs that are legit. Best of luck!

  86. JustASuggestion*

    this isn’t a work problem, but a website request (sorry if it doesn’t go here): can the text size options be moved up closer to the top of the page? right now, I have to scroll pretty far down to make the text bigger on my screen (this is a shared work computer so I can’t really play with the font sizes). thanks! :)

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      In the interim, I think it’s … control-scrollwheel that will let you zoom in and out on a browser window, if you’re on Windows?

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      On Windoze 10:

      Ctrl + to make the font larger

      Ctrl – to make the font smaller

      Ctrl 0 (the digit, not the uppercase letter) to reset it to its original size.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        On a Mac, cmd + and cmd – work. On a Mac laptop, you can double tap the track pack with two fingers to make the text bigger, and do it again to revert.

    3. Dumpster Fire*

      The simplest thing to do is probably control-plus (to increase size, can use it multiple times), control-minus (to decrease), and then just hit control-zero to return it to the default (100%) when you’re done.

  87. rageismycaffeine*

    Appreciate everyone’s thoughts on last week’s post about being asked for insights to a department head (Cersei) who was fired by someone at her new gig. Since there seemed to be some confusion – before my post, I did what I was told to do by HR and legal – told her that HR could answer any questions – and she responded with a “Gotcha” so I’m sure she did in fact read between the lines. I maintain that I find it incredibly frustrating to not be able to speak openly to someone in the same position I was in when I started working with Cersei two years ago – boy do I wish I had someone to warn me what I was getting into then! However, I do fully appreciate that there are obviously things I don’t know about the Cersei situation, and that I absolutely must do what I’ve been advised by HR and legal, and that’s what I’m doing.

    It still sucks. :)

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      My first sentence is so poorly written and I just realized it. Let’s try again:

      I was being asked for insights by someone at her new gig on the department head who was fired at my organization.

      1. valentine*

        I think you’re wanting to spare past you, not a future someone in past you’s position. You never know. They may see right through her and/or act sooner. Or she may behave differently.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Yeah, it sucks, you really empathize with the colleague who reached out to you. But she got the message, you did what she needed you to do.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      There’s nothing stopping you from letting out a dramatic size and a peg at pause before referring them to HR.

  88. Ancient Alien*

    THOUGHTS ON NON-COMPETE AGREEMENTS?

    I’m hoping to get some insight from more knowledgeable folks about how to handle non-compete agreements, especially during the interview stage. For context, I am a private sector (healthcare) proposal writer/proposal manager in Minnesota and am not currently under a non-compete (though I am starting to poke around for my next role and would prefer to stay out from under one). While an argument could be made that because of my role as a proposal writer, I have access to a lot of internal operational information, a counter-argument could be made that virtually all of the information i have access to is discoverable in proposals i have written to public sector entities through the FOIA process. In the past, I have always asked during the early stages of the interview process if the role is subject to a non-compete and kind of treated it as a show-stopper. However, as i start interviewing again, I don’t want to close myself off to otherwise great opportunities if it is something that isn’t going to make a lot of practical difference (i.e., only preventing me from going to a handful of direct competitors later on). Bottom line question, how big of a deal should this be and how much of an issue should i make it during the interview process? Any insight is greatly appreciated.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Ask about the limits of the non-compete. Is it strictly a handful of direct competitors? Is it wholesale, or is it limited to specific roles or projects at those competitors? What about other locations? How long is the non-compete term?

      Generally, if it’s too broad – in the sense that it would essentially make it impossible to get another job doing the same or similar type of work within your industry, it ends up being non-enforceable. If it’s a short-term non-compete, you can interview and take a couple of months off between the 2 positions if that’s something feasible for you to do.

      2. Amy Sly*

        It really comes down to the terms, as animaniac says. Time period, geographic area, and employment sector should all be strictly defined and reasonably limited.

        1. One of the Spreadsheet Horde*

          This. We did research on this a few years ago when my husband’s last company randomly forced him to sign an awkwardly broad (think all IT work and no geographic limitation) non compete a year into his employment without there being any additional compensation offered for signing. His likely wouldn’t have been enforceable but I ended up having him get in writing the specific types of work he was not allowed to do since he was going to stay in IT.

    2. BeenThere*

      I had a 2 year non-compete at OldJob. They wanted to know who I was going to be working for when I left and what I would be doing to make sure it wasn’t a competitor or selling out trade knowledge. Just emailed HR the info, got the greenlight, done.

      Working with former public auditors who move into private roles, they’ve been limited on some of what they can do the first year in a new role, but if it’s an industry standard non-compete, no one bats an eye.

  89. Key R.*

    How do you handle constant funishment?
    Funishment = mandatory fun that feels like a punishment

    I’ve tried playing along in one or two activities, but now it’s becoming a semi-monthly regular thing to do “team building” exercises like decorating a valentine’s day card (glitter, glue and construction paper and all) or write a haiku about our team leads strengths.

    I get having social functions to let people interact in a more casual way, but having these kinds of activities every 2 weeks is really irritating me. I’ve tried getting a feel for how others feel about these activities to see if we can push back as a group, but everyone else (thus far) is amused by them or thinks that they’re ok. Also, as a contractor I don’t have as much pull here as a regular employee would.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I have very low tolerance for this kind of thing, so I sympathise.

      How much flexibility do you have as a contractor to be strategically absent on Funishment Fridays?

      Alternatively, could you pretend to be concerned that these activities blur the distinction between contractor and employee, and gracefully decline?

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I’m intrigued by the haiku idea and have now decided you could use it to indicate your enthusiasm for the Funishment Project.

        All this team building
        Shows us that Fergus is our
        So-called “Missing Stair”.

        Fergus has the knack
        Of making all his reports
        Look exceptional.

        This task makes me yearn
        For the opportunity
        To do my real work.

        This is infantile.
        Line-by-line code auditing
        Would be much more fun.

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      I love the advice above. Additionally — and what I go to if I weren’t a contractor, or if neither of the below works —

      Cite your workload and deadlines as a reason you are unable to attend

      (Maddening) begin to consider it part of your job…. to be paid to ….. glitter glue

  90. Chronically Late*

    So, as ashamed as I am to admit it- I’m a chronically late person. I know, it’s terrible and I wish I was the type of person who could be early to being early. I thought that my new job was going to be really flexible in terms of work hours, as there are a lot of people who are on revised schedules (the official hours are 8-5, but we have several 7-4 and 9-6 people in the office). However, I got the talking to from my supervisor that I need to be here earlier. I completely understand this, and I am actively working on adjusting my sleep schedule and leaving earlier. However, the only thing that bothered me about the conversation is that my supervisor mentioned that it’s affecting team morale. Like I said, so many people in our office have different arrival times (anywhere between 7-9 am), and I’ve always been someone who just minded their own business about my coworkers, so I felt a little defeated that I was apparently bothering others. I really don’t want to fall into negative patterns that I have in the past, where I feel like a failure for being late and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where I’m always late. Any advice from other chronically late people on how they’ve fixed their chronic lateness?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      What time have you been getting there? If you’re getting there at 9:30, yeah, that might be out of step if everyone else is there by 9. But honestly, if your arrival time is affecting people’s morale, that’s kinda weird. Your boss may just have a hang up.

      1. valentine*

        It may be that you physically cannot be as early as she wants you to be and, barring a lot of collaboration or coverage, I think this is just her own bias. Have you considered a different job and possibly working nights? Would she consider the accommodation of a later schedule until you get a sleep assessment?

        1. AnonyMouse*

          Working nights is not an option in my industry, and I really like this job so I’m not interested in leaving. I don’t think I have a sleep disorder, but I am actively working on improving my sleep routine (if you will). Hence why I was looking primarily for strategies others have found effective.

          1. Fikly*

            Have you been assessed for a sleep disorder? I mention this because I have a severe one, and had zero idea that I had it. I got lucky and a doctor put things together and sent me to be evaluated.

      2. Chronically Late*

        I’m not upset that I got the talking to, because I understand and I acknowledge that I need to improve. I’m on a 9-6 and I’ve slipped up the past couple of days and came in closer to 9:15. So I get why I was talked to and I’m not upset about that. It was more the morale comment that I thought was weird. Because again, I don’t really pay attention to others comings and goings. I’m not upset with coworkers who leave at 4 pm or 4:30 pm because I know they got in early to be able to do that. So I don’t let that affect my mood or attitude toward my job. I apologize if that wasn’t clear. But am still primarily looking for strategies to train my brain to be an early person!

        1. Jules the First*

          Speaking as a chronically late person, if the problem is actually your brain (in my case, poor executive function which leaves me with an inability to judge time passing), it may actually be impossible to retrain your brain. Are you literally late for everything, or can you be on time for things like flights and doctors appointments? If yes, you may need to talk to your doctor about executive function and getting an accommodation at work.

          Either way, the best solution I’ve found is a visual timer. You can get ones that are like a clock face with green, yellow, and red sections that count you down, you can get ones that are cool and modern cubes that change colour but the idea is that you have a visual cue for how time is passing.

          For the morale thing, if you work a 9-6 and that’s the latest possible shift, your coworkers may be resenting the fact that they make the effort to be here on time for their early start but you not only have a lie in and start later, but then you “swan in” fifteen minutes late as if you’re too good to have to be on time. It’s stupid, but there’s a huge cultural difference between “we are flexible with hours” (we have three different shifts for you to choose from, but you have to pick one and stick to it) and “we are flexible with working hours” (get here when you get here, ideally no later than 9, and put in your 8 hours). As a chronically late person, it’s much more important to have the latter kind of flexibility than the former.

        2. Batgirl*

          As another chronically late person one of my biggest hills was understanding why my lateness bugged others. I find it hard to judge the passing of time, so I don’t really notice lateness even in situations where I’m waiting for someone (as long as there’s something else to do). The idea that people have enough brain space to judge other people’s schedules is mind blowing to me.
          I just came to the conclusion that I don’t have to understand the why; I just have to accept that it does.
          I am early for things these days and my tips are:
          1) Simplify your mornings to the nth degree. Get everything ready the night before. Keep your stuff in one place. Get your routine timings down to something quick and manageable, especially if poor sleep is shorting you on a good wake up time. Use music tracks to keep you on pace.
          2) Be earlier than you want to be. Even people with great timing skills plan in extra time for traffic emergencies and lost keys. Start aiming to be in by 8, take a to-go coffee and something to read or do a little power walking near the office before work. Once you can consistently do that you can nudge the timing closer, but still leave a buffer which matches your longest delay.

    2. Emilitron*

      There’s a difference between working a late schedule and being late. Are you on a revised schedule? In my very flexible employer, I have a colleague Fergus who comes in around 11 every day, and is rarely out of the office before 8pm. But if you put a meeting on his calendar he’s there 2 minutes before it starts, and if you ask him for a work deliverable by Tuesday it’s done at 8pm Monday and waiting on your desk when you arrive Tuesday morning. He’s not late. Me, on the other hand, I’m late. I generally work the 9-6 range but if you need me here at 9, I’ll arrive to your meeting at 9:08 because I’m still putting down bags and getting coffee, unless I know it’s super important. I’m trying to do better on that, but my focus is on promptness, not on schedule, I’m not trying to get in any earlier than 8:55. Maybe your boss is actually complaining about reliability or predictability – if Fergus had never made it clear that he was shifting his schedule I wouldn’t know not to look for him at 10, and I would be irritated, especially if sometimes I saw him at 9:30, and sometimes he just didn’t show up till 11. If your coworkers don’t know when to expect you, then they’re likely annoyed because you’re not there when they look for you. You could fix that by making sure they know when not to look for you.

    3. CheeryO*

      I assume you’re required to adhere to the 8-5 schedule as a new employee? If not, you should request a schedule that will work better for you.

      I agree with Emilitron that you can’t assume flexibility just because some people work later hours. If you’re supposed to be in at 8:00, then people are expecting you to be in roughly at 8:00, and will schedule meetings or drop by your desk accordingly. It could definitely impact morale if they need to disrupt their routines to accommodate your lateness. (And also – people are people. Your coworkers probably aren’t looking at it through the most compassionate lens, and it’s easy to be annoyed by chronically late people when you’re always roughly on time.)

    4. WellRed*

      I wonder if the “morale” comment was really just coming from the boss and your coworkers haven’t necessarily cared that much.
      I have never understand why people are chronically late (and no, I am not a morning person), but I have a dear friend who was always like that (no longer. When she transitioned to a client facing job, she was told sternly that her future would go nowhere if she didn’t handle it. She handled it.). Two patterns I noticed with her: When she was supposed to meet me somewhere at say, 3pm, it wasn’t until 3pm that she would think, “Oh, time to meet WellRed,” at which point she was already late. The other: thinking she had time to do justonemorelittlething before leaving. Nope. Just leave. Time to go. Not sure if either applies, but your strategy will depend a lot on why you’re late.

    5. RagingADHD*

      When I’m in situations with an early AM start and no flexibility, small adjustments don’t work. I have to start the night before preparing a seamless “launch” with a truly unreasonable amount of margin built in.

      Clothes & accessories laid out.

      Everything I need to take goes in the car the night before, if possible.

      Breakfast and coffeepot pre-prepped. Alarm set extra early. Shower the night before, if possible.

      Just have to leave no opportunity to get derailed or delayed. It’s a project and often feels like overkill, but if it’s necessary to for sure be on time or before time, then that’s what it takes.

    6. A Non E. Mouse*

      Any advice from other chronically late people on how they’ve fixed their chronic lateness?

      Alarms on my phone; I have alarms set at 15 minute intervals from the time I get up until the time I’m supposed to leave the house.

      Wake up alarm: 5:15am
      Be out of the shower: 5:30
      Better be drinking my coffee by now: 5:45
      Make sure all the kids are awake and moving: 6am
      If I haven’t finished it, chug my second cup of coffee: 6:15
      Final warning to children: 6:30
      Me and the youngest need to hit the door: 6:45

      I’m still late occasionally, but this keeps me from losing time – without these I’ll sit down with a cup of coffee then it’s 7am, time just….goes away?

    7. Ama*

      I’m not chronically late but I’m bad at being on time to work (combination of not being a morning person and having a tendency to slip a bit when I’m in an everyday routine). One thing that’s worked for me is setting clocks in a couple of key areas (bedroom and bathroom primarily) ahead about 5 minutes. I *know* they are five minutes ahead if I think about it, but when I’m bleary eyed in the morning I see “oh crap it’s 8:40 already” and start hustling to get out the door, which gets me out the door by actual 8:40 which is the time I’m supposed to leave.

    8. Curmudgeon in California*

      It’s super alarming that the new person is being told that they are “affecting team morale”. Unless you are in a leadership position, that is a cop out, and leadership blaming you for their shortcomings. Start looking for a new job while you work on the timeliness issue.

      By preference, establish your hours as 9 – 6, and try to arrive by 8:30. If they want you to do 7 to 4, that’s another red flag.

      To avoid being late, you have to make your inner setting for your start time half an hour earlier. If you are told 8 to 5, tell yourself that you have to get there at 7:30 to get coffee and be settled in to start work at 8. Set your alarms on your phone accordingly.

      Disclaimer: I am chronically late, and a night person. I resent any day I have to get up before noon. I struggle to get to work by 10, especially with the miserable traffic and longer commute that I now have to deal with to go in to my craptastic open plan workplace. If they griped about me being a little late, I’d set my arrival target to 9:30 to get there by 10.

  91. All Hail Queen Sally*

    Can anyone recommend a free PDF merge program? Our copier/printer will only make one PDF at a time if you are scanning things that need to be scanned one page at a time, like from a book, and also sometimes we have to put several different PDFs together. I haved looked online and notice that Talk Helper, PDFSAM Split and Merge, Small PDF PDF Merge, and PDF Escape are listed as being free. Does anyone have experience with any of these or could recommend any others? It has to be completely free. Thanks!

    2. Dumpster Fire*

      Small PDF is very easy to use – you can just drag-and-drop your files onto the designated space in your web browser and hit the “Merge” button, then download the file.

      If you don’t like the idea of uploading your files to the web to merge them, I’ve found that the free CutePDF Writer it really useful. It works just like a print driver, from any application (Word, Excel, whatever); select CutePDF and it’ll create a PDF file as the output. If you leave that PDF file open and “print” another document using CutePDF, it appends the second to the first within the open PDF file.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        It’s my go to! I really love it. I am generally suspicious about the privacy of documents uploaded to free online services, so I won’t use it for anything secure or confidential.

        To split PDFs, sometimes I use ilovepdf but sometimes I use Chrome’s print to PDF function (available as a printer destination in the regular print function) and set a custom page range. If you have Mac, I think every print window has the option to print to pdf regardless of application.

        I have had a lot of issues merging PDFs in preview on my Mac. Im good with technology, but it might be user error, but I stopped trying ages ago

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’m pretty sure the program I used to use for this kind of thing was pdftk. Before we replaced our copier, I needed something that could interleave two single-sided multi-page documents since our document feeder stopped doing double sided scans reliably (many, many paper jams) and I had to start running the fronts in one file and the backs in another. It’s a command-line based open source project, so it’s great for something you want to mostly automate on your end since you can just keep the commands you use regularly in a text file with the exact set-up of flags you use rather than having to dig through and select a bunch of options from menus each time.

      They also offer two different GUI frontends for it – a free one with basic features and a paid one with more features. I never used either since I saw ability to use it from a command line as a feature rather than a limitation, but it’s possible their free version would have enough features if you really just need to combine some pages into a single pdf.

    6. A Non E. Mouse*

      Second CutePDF, but also double check for a “continuous scan” option on your copier/printer.

      It’s usually a buried item on the menu, but it should enable you to scan multiple things, and then hit “complete”, and have it all go to one document.

      Good luck!

  92. MsSolo*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for learning/certification/career routes for someone who did English Lit at university and now works in data? My last relevant qualification to my current career was IT A-level 15 years ago, but I’ve taught myself a lot of javascript and SQL over the years. I’m at the awkward point now of knowing enough to be able to find what I need if someone else has done it before, but not being fluent enough to write it from scratch myself, which means most of the online courses I can find are either pitched too simple or too hard for me, and I’m wary of forking out for something that’s not going to add anything to my existing knowledge.

    My current role is title ‘data analyst’, but due to funder demands is mostly data processing. I’ve got limited capacity to put it into practice in my current role (anyone want a really specific dashboard generator in google sheets? a summary sheet that pulls all the data from those dashboards back together?) so though I can talk about automation and efficiencies, most of the job paths I’ve looked at are looking for either experience with databases my role doesn’t give me access to, qualifications I can’t afford, or evidence of coding from scratch. I can’t really advocate for more money in my current role because the skills I’ve got aren’t necessary for the job I’ve been hired for – when I go on mat leave in a few months (I’m in the UK, so they’ll be hiring someone to cover me for 6-12 months) whoever they get to cover me almost certainly won’t have these skills, and they’ll be able to do the job just fine (it’ll take them longer and there’s a higher risk of human error, but the funder doesn’t care as long as they get their monthly stats).

    What complicates this is I’m not sure ‘data analyst’ is actually the career path I’m looking for. Maybe I want to be a business analyst? Or a Data something else? I like spreadsheets more than databases, but I get the impression there’s a glass ceiling on spreadsheet skills that there isn’t on databases. What job do I do that lets me make pretty graphs and dynamic dashboards and shiny pivot tables and generally just look quite clever while my code does all of the grunt work?

    Has anyone else taught themselves similar skills and hit the same quandary? What path did you take? What skills were the most useful to focus on? How did you demonstrate you had them without qualifications or examples from your current role?

    1. Forkeater*

      It sounds like you’re looking for “business intelligence analyst.” (My former title). I had a very nice career impressing people with pretty graphs and dashboards (before pivoting back into a different analytical role). Those jobs will ask for database skills but what they want is the ability to get data out of a database (this is your SQL talking) and transform it into information people can actually use. It sounds like you know how to do all this already.

      1. MsSolo*

        That does sound like the sort of thing I’m looking for – I think I just need to focus on how to extend my existing skills and work out where I can use them, since my current role doesn’t require them and I can’t move into one that does without evidencing that I already can.

    2. coldfeet*

      In response to “What job do I do that lets me make pretty graphs and dynamic dashboards and shiny pivot tables and generally just look quite clever while my code does all of the grunt work?” – you might consider being a “Business Intelligence Analyst/Specialist”. It would be helpful if you’re familiar with Tableau and PowerBI

      1. MsSolo*

        We do use tableau at work (well, the central data team use tableau, but due to a report breaking last year my team have got access to it – we’ve just never had any training or instruction!) though interestingly most of the business analysts don’t use it directly. I think that’s probably due to funder demands more than anything else, but I might go bother one of them to learn more about their actual jobs and see if it’s a good fit. Thanks for the steer!

    3. Terra*

      Very similar profile to you in terms of my educational background and the self-teaching data skills–I am in something more of a business analyst position now. My sense is that it reeeeeally varies across companies/particular jobs.

      I was more on the database side of things–not hard dev or anything. I think the common thread for me is I end up in essentially mediation positions, where I’m helping bridge gaps between developers and users, or users and vendors, or between stored data and the people who need to access/use the data.

      I think some kind of analyst position where you’re working with an application like PowerBI, Cognos, etc., is a good balance. You have to understand databases and think about how they’re structured, but you’re not so deep in the technical/dev role.

      1. MsSolo*

        Hard dev is definitely the area I want to avoid – I like databases, but I don’t especially want to build one, not at the kind of orgs I’m currently working at (I was happy constructing something for school bookings at a museum I used to work at in MS Access, which worked a heck of a lot better than the very fancy replacement someone who didn’t actually work with databases decided to buy, but that’s about my level). I like sitting in that gap between “here is the raw data” and “here is what you want to know”. Thanks for the advice!

  93. Princess Scrivener*

    I got an owler.tradepub.com email this morning with a link to a free download of “Resumes for Dummies, 8th edition.” AAM’s article from two weeks ago was surely less than 1500 words. This book? 464 pages. I don’t know whether or not it’s worth a skim, but ain’t nobody got time for that, when Alison’s advice was concise, spot on, and also free.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Perhaps it has lots of examples? You could bulk out a book with lots of example phrasing – my university gave us a booklet with very specific phrasing for the different skills we had (in theory) developed during our degrees.

      Or examples of bad resumes rewritten in the author’s recommended style.

      If I were spending real money, I think I’d want more explicit hand holding. That’s presumably where the “for dummies” bit comes in. Alison doesn’t consider us dummies.

  94. Cg1254t*

    For any commenters that are also LGBT+, has it ever impacted your career? I recently figured out I’m pansexual and have begun dating women (as a cis woman). I’m nervous about how to handle coming out at work (If I had a serious longterm relationship), especially in the business career paths — I’m still in school currently.

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I think this really depends on your personality and industry as to how you play this.

      For me, I’m bisexual but in a long term heterosexual relationship. I am very traditionally feminine and generally pass as straight. For me, I’ve tried to weave together a few hints that people could pick up on. I have a couple rainbow items in my office. To some of the people I’m closer with, I’ve used language that suggests I’m not straight, but I usually just kind of let them piece it together.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        This is off-topic, but: I’m also bisexual, in a decade-plus heterosexual marriage, and generally pass as straight, and as a result I always feel a little… weird, I guess, about owning my sexual identity. I’m not out at work at all because in a (not entirely rational and yet unshakeable) way it doesn’t feel like there’s anything to be out about. I know that feeling invisible as a bisexual person is pretty common but that doesn’t seem to help me deal with it at all. Do you have any tips for me? :)

        2. Arielle*

          Well, I have a bi pride flag taped to my computer monitor, but that might be a little less than subtle. :) Come to think of it, no one’s ever asked me about it.

        3. Kimmy Schmidt*

          Oof. Yeah, this can be tough.

          Honestly for me, I tried to start dropping some subtle hints almost as soon as I started working here, so it wasn’t ever like BOMBSHELL SURPRISE. I think it gets more difficult the longer you’ve been somewhere.

          A lot of the people in my office probably think that I’m a zesty ally because I’ve never said anything explicit, but I think those in the know know. I’d love to hear what other people have done after working somewhere for a while.

        4. Jules the 3rd*

          None, but similar situation. Publicly and professionally, I focus on signals that I’m an ally and supporter. I got way too much cr*p for not being pure lesbian back in the 80s/90s to be comfortable coming out as bi. Most of my friends know I’ve enjoyed physical encounters with women, but I don’t put a label on it, and I don’t bring it up at work.

        5. Salsa Your Face*

          I’m in a very similar position. It’s always felt so weird for me to talk about my sexuality, and that means that I’m not technically “out” at work, even though I don’t talk about it explicitly. Bringing up my husband in conversation is just…talking about my husband. If I had a wife or girlfriend instead of a husband, I would happily bring them up in conversation as well. But talking about being bisexual in conversation feels too much like talking about sex–it’s talking about *what I like* vs * who I’m with.* I’ve been reassured lots of times that it’s not perceived like that, but I’ve never been able to shake myself of that mindset.

          I work for a large company and they do a lot of LGBTQ+ outreach, so I’m not worried about consequences of being out. Our internal social media platform even has an LGBTQ+ group that I could join, but I haven’t. I almost feel like I’m not allowed to, like I’m not queer enough, which I know is ridiculous, but…there you go.

          1. Salsa Your Face*

            Oy. Rereading my comment and it’s all over the place. This is an emotional topic for me and I edited 30,000 times. You get the drift.

      2. Curmudgeon in California*

        Oooof. I feel you. I’m bi, ace, AFAB, enby, married to another AFAB enby ace. My email sig has my pronouns, but I still talk about my wife, since she hasn’t really changed pronouns yet (she doesn’t care, as long as I don’t call her ‘late for dinner’.) I’m starting to shift to use “spouse”.

        The male CIO where I work has a husband, so it’s not really an issue here. But other places where it felt weirder I was just very non-gender specific, or didn’t bring it up.

    2. Grace*

      Thankfully, I was two days into my current and first job and wondering how to handle this when one co-worker in our office of eight mentioned buying a house with her partner (female name), another mentioned both her ex-girlfriend and current boyfriend, and a guy who’s straight said that he was in [non-specific definitely-for-LGBTQ-people-and-allies] organisation. Everyone’s incredibly open and accepting and it’s wonderful.

      I’m following this thread mostly so that I can figure out how to deal with this if/when I end up in a job that isn’t so accepting, or that is but isn’t so loud and proud about it.

    3. SarahTheEntwife*

      For me, not as far as I know. I’m really lucky to have another out nonbinary coworker so we can support each other, and overall my workplace has been awesome, if sometimes forgetful about pronouns. I’m incredibly privileged here in that “neurodivergent queer femme in their 30s” kind of describes half my profession. The other half can range from supportive to terrible, but unless I move to a very small institution, I’m never going to be the only one.

    4. Super Awk*

      I am a queer cis woman married to a cis woman, but I was previously married to a man. I live in a very ‘open-minded’ city but I do not take anything for granted (I’ve been harassed here, just like anywhere else) and I still find myself hesitating before I use the phrase ‘my wife’ for the first time in certain settings. I actually find myself bringing it up sooner than I might otherwise, a sort of compulsive ‘testing’. A couple of years ago, I would beat myself up about it: ‘oh, I shouldn’t be nervous – no one cares! What kind of queer am I, afraid to mention my wife here?’ or ‘Why am I making a big deal of this, mentioning I have a wife when I never would have mentioned I had a husband? This should be normal. Why am I making it not normal?!’
      My own personal liberation came from accepting that MY comfort comes first and foremost. I trust my instinct and do whatever makes me feel safe and happy in any given situation. I do not strive to be ‘consistent’ anymore. Because not every situation, person, neighborhood, team, or company is the same. I also do not feel guilty about ‘testing’ anymore; it’s not my fault that I’ve been instilled with the fear of harassment or discrimination. I’m just trying to get along!
      All that being said, I have had good experiences coming out at work here or finding workplaces that treat me with the respect they’d treat a straight employee. I get some double-takes from people who find out I was married to a man previously, but that doesn’t get revealed until I know a person pretty well, so I am happy to chat with them about it if they have (respectful) questions. (Another note – bi-erasure is real y’all!).

    5. Aromantic*

      I’m not sure. For me, I’m aromantic (and asexual), so sometimes it can be weird because the default assumption is that I’m either in some kind of relationship, dating, or looking for someone to date. And it gets awkward to never be doing that but also not state directly that I have no interest in that.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        I hear that. I’m mostly aromantic ace, but when a long term BFF was also ace, well, I married her. It has turned out well for us, but neither of us dated or anything else. We went from friends to roommates to spouses. The tax and insurance benefits helped both of us a lot, but it’s not for everyone. We lived together for over 10 years before we even did a DP, and 20 before we married. YMMV, of course. Ours was a friendship that turned into sharing life and finances.

        1. KoiFeeder*

          Honestly, even I don’t know my romantic alignment or gender, but what you just described sounds pretty great.

    6. Retail not Retail*

      I wondered if it would be an issue at my job – someone used a homophobic slur and got mad when i said cut that out – but for the type of blue collar work and what state i’m in, it hasn’t been an issue.

      My coworker is (was?) engaged and all the straight guys and me agreed that she clearly wasn’t in love with her.

      Anyway i carry a human rights campaign bag for lunch and a new guy on the work release crew saw it and was so happy!

    7. Alexandra Lynch*

      My boyfriend’s last couple gigs were absolutely fine with the fact that he is out about being poly. In fact they thought he was gay, because he was dating a person named Alex and a person named Cory. (Alexandra and Corinne, LOL!)

      He doesn’t usually bring up the bigender stuff as his work presentation is entirely male, at this point. But he is careful to make sure that he doesn’t work for companies that won’t let him be out in a proper and work appropriate way.

  95. NW Mossy*

    I’d love some advice from the community about how to continue to thrive in your career when advancing upward no longer feels like it makes sense. How do you keep from getting stale or feeling like you’re not making an impact when you know you’ll be at the same level until you retire, even though that’s decades away?

    Background: I recently applied for a director position to replace my boss, a position she’d been coaching me towards for several years. While I think many people (including me, a bit) thought I was a shoo-in, I didn’t get it, and for good reason. My “brand” in the organization is “context expert and excellent people-manager,” which is perfect for the role I’m in but not what’s desired at the director level. As my grandboss (the hiring manager) explained it to me, I’d need to change my reputation to be much more about relationships and networks to succeed at a higher level.

    That’s…. a pretty tall order, for multiple reasons. It’s going to be exceptionally difficult to get people to break the decade-old “Mossy = SME” perception they have of me, and even if I could pull it off, I don’t know that I want to! I love learning the details and will have a hard time resisting the temptation to do that even if I switch to a business line I know nothing about today. Also, while I’m generally well-liked and I’ve got a network, it’s small and I really struggle with cultivating relationships when I don’t have a clear business reason to interact with the person other than to keep up a connection. I can do it, but I know that for me, it requires a relentlessly high level of effort to do well. Meanwhile, there are plenty of people (the successful candidate being the best example) for whom this type of human connection is as natural as breathing, and unsurprisingly, they’re going to be a lot better at it!

    I guess I’m just having one of those existential mid-life crises where my path forward isn’t clear, and it’s got me worried that I’ve let my ambitions get out ahead of what I’m actually capable of doing well. I have the extreme luxury of not needing to move up for financial reasons, so while it’d be fine to just coast, I don’t know that I’d find that fulfilling long-term.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Can you do some work where you’re the lead on some interdepartmental side-projects, etc. that would help with the networking, and because they’d be individual side-projects, prevent you from getting stale and bored in your current role? I have some other thoughts about satisfaction in keeping the wheels running smooth, but that’s second-place to the first thought I think.

      1. NW Mossy*

        In the let-me-down-gently conversation, my grandboss did offer up the option to take on a 2-year assignment to be an embedded business leader in the IT project to overhaul our core applications. The post isn’t approved yet so it’s not for sure, but she did say that she’d offer me first dibs on it.

        It’s really intriguing because there’s potentially a lot of upside in being integral to the success of our biggest undertaking since the mid-2000s. But as with most high-reward situations, the risks are high too – not having a job after the project ends, further pigeon-holing myself as technical rather than strategic, or taking the fall if it goes badly. It’ll be a lot to consider!

    2. SarahTheEntwife*

      Are there any lateral moves you could make career-wise in terms of trying out a different specialty/focus? Or moving to a larger/smaller/different-flavored organization to stretch your skills at at place where the same general thing works differently? I also have absolutely no desire to move into management, but I’ve moved subfields within libraries, and now within cataloging there are any number of specialty areas I could focus on if I wanted to specialize more or try something new.

      Though actually, rereading your comment I’m not clear whether you actively don’t want to move into management but it’s “the done thing”, or if you would quite like to be a director but are having trouble breaking out of your current position in the eyes of the rest of the organization. If it’s the latter I have no advice but am going to keep reading this thread because networking also does not come easily to me.

    3. Anonya*

      I don’t have any advice, but I am right there with you, 100%. I’m way too young to let myself stagnate, but I know my personality is not well suited for anything with high networking requirements. Mid-level manager, here, and I’m already working on the boundaries of where I feel comfortable (or even effective, really).

  96. voluptuousfire*

    How do you handle interviews with a company with poor Glassdoor reviews? I had a great interview for a role yesterday with the recruiter. It’s a step up from my current role and the pay would be a 25-30% pay bump, so it’s exciting. I’m being moved to the next steps (yay!) but I went back to Glassdoor to review their local office and it’s not great. Roughly a 2.6 star rating, which isn’t terrible but oof! It’s a new office in the US of a European company that’s a start-up so some of it sounds like the typical start-up growing pains. I want to bring this up in a later interview since it’s concerning. I figure I’d just ask directly but I am wondering what others would do in this situation?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      It depends on what the reviews are saying, who is saying them, and when they were from. If it’s mostly old stuff that can come from growing pains, then it’s probably less of a big deal. Or if it all seems to be from a specific department, that might not affect your role. But if it’s ongoing and points to some real systemic problems, then I’d definitely be wary. And it couldn’t hurt bringing it up in the interview to get an inside take on things. You might not get all of the details, but how they respond could be very telling.

    2. Midwest writer*

      I asked once about a magazine company with sites all over the world. The negative reviews followed a pattern across all of the positions — disconnected management, longer hours than employees were told to expect, unrealistic expectations for sales positions and a crossover between editorial and sales that most reporters would find unacceptable. I brought up Glassdoor specifically, they knew what reviews I was talking about. Their response was along the lines of “we’ve hired people who don’t like to work hard.” I turned down the job offer I got later, because that was not a comforting answer. I mean, it could have been true, but how did they keep doing such a bad job of hiring then?

  97. RussianInTexas*

    Yesterday’s post about “how can I make my sick employees to stay home” hit home, so to speak.
    We don’t have a good system for WFH.
    We have 4 non-roll over sick days per year.
    We have 5 (FIVE) vacation days per year for the first 5 years.
    My state requires employees to give you absolutely nothing.
    You d** right I will be at work unless I am dying.
    Sorry, but you did it to yourself.

    3. Rebecca*

      Let me guess – rural area, jobs that can pay the bills are few and far between, and the employer basically has a monopoly on the labor pool? I would love to see every single employee walk out and bankrupt the place. You want workers? Offer some benefits. Otherwise, management/owners, you can do the work yourselves. **from a person who lives in a rural area and is tired of companies taking advantage and spouting the “you should be lucky you have a job” line.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        No, no, and no, large city, but when I started this job, I had months of unemployment. My area went through a severe downturn due to the oil crush, so there were many of us coming off the layoffs and looking for a job.
        I am gearing up for the new job search, since it’s a lot better here now.

    4. Fikly*

      Yeah, the people who are annoyed at their coworkers when their coworkers come to work sick are almost always annoyed at the wrong people.

    5. Witch in Training*

      So sorry. That shouldn’t be legal. I work with kids, many of whom have disabilities and/or are immunocompromised, and I just turned down a job that had 12 days PTO per year, sick and vacation combined. As most know, kids are equal parts cute and disgusting. Do you really want your employees coming in when they inevitably get pink eye (a gross and terrifying reality of working around lots of kids)? How about the flu? What happens if the kids need hospitalization or even die because of an employee’s illness?

      Some employers are mean and clueless. You deserve better.

  98. Pinkie Pie*

    Just an update from last week- I have a non compete that stops be from working in Earl Grey tea for Large Teapot. I was trying to find work with Rooibus. Large Teapot does work in Rooibus, but only with specialty Rooibus. My noncompete states that I am only trained for Earl Grey. Small Teapot and Electric Tea Pot stated that because I work with Large Teapot, they were concerned. Large Teapot expressed surprise and encouraged me to grow professionally. Rooibus is less than 10% of his business and with a different market. Large Teapot passed my name on to other folks and I now am training to work with Herbal tea, which is a perfect match for my background. Large Teapot also encouraged me to go after my longer term goal.

    1. Pinkie Pie*

      So now, I’ve got more work coming in and a plan for even more. It’s different working for a small business coming from government work.

  99. Anonadog*

    Online applications so rarely have a specific place to upload a cover letter. The worst part is that some of them don’t clearly notate what step of the application you are on, which means I have accidentally submitted far too many applications without a cover letter because I was waiting for the correct place to upload one.

    How do others handle this? Make it the first page of your resume?

    The fact that so few applications have a spot for a letter is making me wonder if I should bother with them anymore.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Absolutely make it the first page of your resume. I don’t think it can ever hurt you to have a cover letter attached to your resume, but you can definitely miss out by not having one.

      To join them easily (and to avoid having to reformat things every time you update your cover letter for different applications), you can join them as two pdfs into one file in adobe acrobat, or if you don’t have a version that does that you can use an online joiner. There’s a whole bunch out there but I’ve used pdfmerge (dot) com to good results.

    2. SarahTheEntwife*

      Definitely include them! This comment is making me wonder if our new HR system is making it ambiguous where to attach cover letters as well, because I was baffled at how few people submitted them for the last position I helped hire for.

      I agree that attaching them to your resume makes sense, and if there’s another space to add it you can always upload it again separately just to make sure.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Yes, one doc clearly labeled “Cover_Letter_Resume” is my approach, to make it clear it’s both in one, just in case a busy HR or hiring manager opens it and thinks I uploaded just a cover letter accidentally.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      That’s exactly what I do. If I’m not sure, I’ll make a PDF of cover/resume, and one of just the cover. Then when I get to that point in the application, I’ll upload the first one.

      If I find later that I can add a cover letter, it almost always has a place to delete the first document and then I can add both. If not, I just leave it. Either way, I’m covered. *sorrynotsorry*

  100. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

    Made it through my first campus interview with minimal catastrophe until the very end when I asked a (I thought innocuous) question that opened a whole can of worms about a current conflict between department and admin. whoops!

    2. merp*

      Ha, I mean, the more you can get a look at whatever weird academic drama is going on before you actually work there, the better!

      Congrats on the interview and good luck :)

  101. Mrs. C*

    What’s your suggested script for avoiding giving a salary range? In the past, I’ve succeeded in saying something like “I don’t think I’d be able to give an accurate range until I know more about the position and the whole benefits package”, but I’m not sure what I’d say if they subsequently gave me that benefits info and I still wanted to deflect the question.

    In case additional context is helpful: I’ve got an upcoming interview where the posting doesn’t indicate how many years of experience the position requires, and I think they’re flexible as to how senior a staffer they hire (based on what their applicant pool looks like). In the past, someone with 10+ years of experience was in the role, and most recently they had someone with 1 year of experience. I’m at more like 5 years of experience. I don’t know how much flexibility is in their budget for the role at this time, and I want to make sure I don’t leave money on the table.

    1. irene adler*

      Maybe something along the lines of:

      “I’d be glad to discuss salary with you. I’m sure you have a hiring salary range established for this position. So, what is that range? ”

      “Okay, the benefits run-down helps, but not sure about the job particulars. I’d really like to talk with the hiring manager so that I’m clear about the job requirements. And I am sure we can come to a mutually agreeable salary range once I understand the position.”

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think your first thing is good, I’d amend it with “…what is your range for this position?”, since it’s really better for you to know what they’re willing/looking to pay for the position.

      Ideally you would know the range before you get too far into the process, but once you get it you can then say “yes we’re on the same page for the range” or “no we aren’t on the same page and I’m withdrawing my consideration” or “we aren’t on the same page but I’d like to hear more about the job/benefits/is there any wiggle room for negotiations”.

    3. Emilitron*

      I’ve approached it in the past by selling myself as being a strong fit for their expectations, exceeding their requirements in terms of experience, etc. “Based on the job posting I can see that my experience puts me in the mid-to-upper end of expectations for the position, so I would see myself toward the upper end of hte range in starting salary as well.” That meshes well with their flexibility, and can tie back to if you said you don’t want to give a number without understanding everything the position entails doing.

  102. SQL Coder Cat*

    Looking for advice on keeping momentum going on a project that Will. Not. End.

    For context, I started a new position two years ago. The position was intended to be primarily QA with a minor amount of project management. When I arrived I took over an implementation project from the person I was replacing that was supposed to take only four months and that required an extensive amount of QA. As it turned out, the project sponsor, the vendor, the target users, and the person I was replacing all had completely different ideas of what was being done. Fast forward through a horrendous amount of setbacks, rework, and charter changes, and we get to today: if we have no further major setbacks, I should be able to wrap this nightmare up by the end of March.

    The problem is, at this point myself and everyone else on the team are just sick of this. It’s getting harder and harder to get the people with small roles in the project to complete their parts by the agreed upon deadlines, because ‘you’re not going to be ready for it anyway’. But if no one meets their deadline, everything keeps getting pushed back. I know as the project manager it’s my job to see that these things get done, but as an IT person with a project team made up of academic departments I have no ability to demand that people work on things (which my boss and the project sponsor both acknowledge). I’m running out of steam and the project end is so close I can almost taste it. I just need everyone to stay on track for a few more weeks! How can I keep others motivated when I’m sick of it all myself?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Make it personal. As in, make it about helping YOU (SQL Coder Cat, the person) not about the project or the department, etc. Be human, show a bit of frustration, let folks know you’re just as frustrated with the mess as they are and you just want to wrap this dang thing up.

      “Hey, I know you’re really busy, but could you help me out? We’re really close to finishing and I need XYZ from you to finish out this aspect of the project. We’re almost there…so close. Who’s bringing the champagne?”

      If you can, build more personal-professional relationships with folks, so you’re a face rather than a line of text.

  103. Me--riding on hope and waiting to be bucked off*

    Interview #2 at HighRiseFancyPlace (for a different job) went better than Interview #1, I think. I talked about my personal project as something I did because I needed to be productive, which I hope scored some I-really-wanna-work points. I also asked the question “Is this a newer position or replacing someone who moved on or up?” They said the person had been there for two years and left for a different job, whereupon I said I’m not looking to job-hop.

    This role would be a stretch for me, but I want that. I would learn things I can take elsewhere if I ever did move, and they’re not so difficult that I couldn’t do good work here. I would be very surprised to be hired, though. I feel a bit like a bird being toyed with by a cat. No. Body. Wants. Me. I need to stop looking at apartments I cannot get.

    There has been no response from any other workplace. The job posts come and go in waves; they seem to be in a trough right now as well. Bullets dodged or not, it’s also disheartening to see jobs I applied for that either rejected me or never responded being posted again. I tried reapplying to a couple that I submitted to from OldCity, saying I’ve now moved in case location was a factor, but got nothing.

    One of the most frustrating things is being unable to get out and do stuff. I can’t spend moving money. I’m in a suburb where there nothing but housing developments, not even sidewalks, and nothing to do, which means I can’t just go walk around and essentially have no new neighborhood. I can’t get to know the city and that makes me feel really disconnected from it.

    Maybe it’s irrational, but I keep thinking maybe I should have just gotten a job at the Fake Italian Fast Food place and stayed where I was, loud barking and all. I never thought I’d say this, but I miss my crappy little house.

    1. valentine*

      maybe I should have just […] stayed where I was, loud barking and all.
      No. You are free.

      I miss my crappy little house.
      Maybe a mourning ritual would do you good, but I’d resist this at all costs.

      1. Me--riding on hope and waiting to be bucked off*

        Well, a ritual will have to wait. Maybe as part of a welcoming ritual for a new place? I think that’s why I miss it; I didn’t go from one space that belonged to me into another, but a kind of hellish limbo instead. I feel a bit like the people in the movie Parasite.

    2. Similar JobHunt Experience*

      First I want to say that I’m sending you all the good vibes for your hunt! Also want to add that this post could have been written by me except I didn’t move, just used friends and family’s address as ‘homebase in NewCity’ while living with the parents in Hometown and flying on short notice for interviews. After another round of rejections at NewCity, along with some soul searching about why I wanted to move so badly, I’ve decided to stay in Hometown and the job market here seems more receptive to my candidacy based on the interviews I am getting after over 6 months of up down searching both in remote and in NewCity.

      Regarding the sense of isolation, does your suburban area have any public transit? Could you bus it to the city-or budget for 1-2 uber/lyft rides once a month so you can get out more? If you’re comfortable with occasional carpools off waze, maybe that could be a way to get a ride to the city as well for no cost? Another thing to consider is do you have a network in NewCity? One thing I realized about my experience was that networking played a huge role in how most of my friends got their positions in NewCity. My Hometown job experiences was that you apply off the company website, and can land a job that way…most of my former coworkers all got their jobs in Hometown off job boards etc. But, NewCity was all about referrals. Something like this may be the missing piece to your hunt.

      Sending you all the best wishes fellow job seeker!!

      1. Me--riding on hope and waiting to be bucked off*

        No network. No public transit out here. I have a car. But I don’t have money to run around. I have to save it for moving.

  104. Pseudonomnomnom*

    Any banking people here who’ve gone through a core conversion as part of a merger/acquisition? If you were part of the bank that was bought, what kind of retention payout did they offer to have you stay through the conversion date (if they did)? Was the experience of going through the conversion valuable to you career-wise, or just a pain?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I’ve been on both sides — acquiring bank and acquired. It has always been a valuable experience seeing how to try to integrate different systems and cultures and I’ve always learned a lot. Your question appears to presuppose that your position will be eliminated, that is not always the case. If you are sure that it will be eliminated, usually the retention bonuses are pretty good as they understand that job searching with a specific end date can be tough.

  105. Anonny-nonny-hey*

    Ugh, my coworker. She keeps making promises to her children that they can have some great toy or vacation or something else expensive that she can’t pay for- she’s a single mother, so although she’s making pretty much the same as me it doesn’t go as far- and then asking for donations from her coworkers, including me, to make up the difference “so the babies don’t cry.” Um, no, this is far different from necessities. If you can’t afford a trip to Disneyland or two brand-new video gaming systems or an exotic pet that turns out to be actually illegal to keep in our state, DON’T PROMISE THEM THAT. This is not a hard situation or a hard solution. Stop making stupid promises and stop begging for money.

    1. E*

      Nope, your paycheck is to pay your expenses not hers. If you haven’t already tried to shut down the requests (hopefully just loud enough for coworkers to hear you say no), try that. Then report to HR or manager if it continues. Entitlement is very strong with this one…so sorry.

      1. valentine*

        Yeah, bring that up to your manager – this is VERY inappropriate.
        Yes.

        Kinda hope she’s lying and it’s a straight-up cash grab.

    4. WellRed*

      Tell her to knock it off, don’t give her a dime (of course, you wouldn’t do that) and tell the manager.

    5. Mia 52*

      They’re not “The babies” they are HER babies. Goodness. I can see asking if you’re truly desperate for food or medication or something but just noooooooo

  106. Environmental Compliance*

    Phone interview later today, had a few this week – looking pretty promising!

    One actually had me do a recorded video interview. I had to answer 4 questions and record a response. It was weird – I didn’t *dislike* it, but since I hadn’t ever done that before I’m sure I came off as a bit nervous. I can’t decide how I feel about it.

    In Everyone Hates It Here news:
    1. One of our very beneficial employees onsite has officially given their notice. We have them for about a month and a half still, but they are fed up and Gone.
    2. We have been decreed to halt certain communications (read:most) with the Parent Company. No real reason given, just apparently don’t tell PC certain production information. Things that PC has previously gotten, is important for scheduling purposes, and that PC is asking for. Like actual shutdown dates.
    3. People who are very relevant to meetings are being cut out of those meetings. Having a meeting concerning the reworking of the Sheep Shearing workload? Don’t invite any of the supervisors in that division. Or anyone else in that division or related to that division. If you reinvite them (assuming they just got missed, it happens), they are swiftly re-uninvited and you are told to not invite them, they are not invited. Period.
    4. We’ve recently been tasked with ‘approving’ an expectations sheet that got sent for each of us (management level). Not against the idea, I actually rather like it. However, mine clearly shows a lack of any understanding of what I do or what my duties are, so I submitted some changes and was told they would be included. Got the final sheet back, and nope, nothing.
    5. Bonuses & raises are due to be implemented March 1. None of us know what we’ll be getting (and usually we are told 3+ weeks prior). Apparently HR doesn’t even know what we’ll all be getting because Parent Company hasn’t approved any of it yet.

    In other news, I got to laminate and color coordinate a whole bunch of stuff today and it made me happy on a very silly level.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Oh, and apparently everyone else in management went out to lunch today, invited by Boss. I wasn’t invited. Also the only woman. That’s a good look right there.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        WTF, world? Just…that sounds so gross. I’m sorry you’re in that situation and I hope the path to leave clears soon!

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            And maybe I’m especially salty because of previous jobs, where I was again one of the only women in a male-dominated office, and wasn’t invited to conferences, talks, “team building events”, because I was a woman and they wanted to talk sports, or I couldn’t share a hotel room with the other (male) intern, or they just “forgot”. And where I had to fight tooth and nail to get proper feckin’ PPE because all they had were things that fit a 6′ tall man and I am a 5′ woman and everything was way too large and badly fitting. And the job that to my face told me that I was hired to meet a diversity quota, my skills were just an “extra bonus”.

            So this afternoon I listened to angsty music with my headphones in and was otherwise very quiet in my office.

            1. Ama*

              You are not especially salty, you are just the right amount of salt. I’d be in HR as soon as I got told “boys lunch.”

          2. Curmudgeon in California*

            A “boys lunch”????? That’s straight up discrimination territory right there. Make a note of the date and time of the lunch and who told you it was a “boys lunch”. You’re already into dysfunctional workplace territory and headed at full speed into discrimination land. Document, document, document.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Phone interview with third job Monday morning. Another place wants me in person sometime in the next two weeks.

      It would be actually pretty darn nice to have a couple options to weigh at a few different cities.

      Also, had a phone interview with a fourth company previously and what they put out as the role really wasn’t what they wanted…. ie, advertised for environmental management/compliance specialist and what they really want is an admin staff member. Only a 50% pay cut though! /s I withdrew from the process and a few days later I get an email telling me that they’ve rejected me from the process. *snort*

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Wow. Bullet dodged successfully. Environmental Compliance is not an admin job, especially if you are responsible for hazardous waste tracking and/or packing. (My prior career was in environmental consulting, air quality. I got disabled and the field tanked at about the same time. The company I worked for no longer exists.)

  107. rageismycaffeine*

    On a totally different note from my earlier post: I’m serving on a committee in the international professional organization for my profession that has been talking about salary equity, among other things. We’ve managed to convince the organization to require that salary ranges be listed for any job postings that are shared on the org’s website! I’m super proud of this because a lack of transparency around salary is a huge issue in my profession (and contributes to the salary equity issues). It wouldn’t even be something I would think of without AAM and I’m really grateful to Alison for her advocacy in this area.

  108. De Minimis*

    Finally got contacted to start with the federal background check process for my new job. Have a lot to do, but honestly it’s okay if they take a while because I’d prefer to not start until early April. Hopefully it will be somewhat slow.

    Thankfully, the eQIP system has all my old information from the last two times I’ve gone through this process over the last 7 years, so I’ll only need to update what has happened since the last time, and to delete the older items….

    I have to get fingerprinted twice, once electronically and once with ink….and for whatever reason I have to pay out of pocket for the ink ones even though it’s required for the job…

      1. De Minimis*

        Probably wouldn’t meet the AGI threshold. I had to do this years ago, but the county I lived i at the time didn’t charge county residents for fingerprinting. But I had to go to the county jail to have them taken!

  109. Finally doing therapy*

    Hi y’all. I’m looking for scripts on how to ask my boss to come in late one day a week for the next month-ish. I finally started therapy again, but my therapist doesn’t have any appointments in the evenings until mid March. So that’d be 2-3 weeks. I don’t want to wait that long. I’m salaried, and my boss is pretty flexible about our hours, but since we added a remote member, Boss wants us to be here at 9 on the dot because New Guy is in a different (earlier) time zone. So do I just say recurring doctor’s appointment? That’s technically what it is? My calendar is clear for those mornings, but a 9am drs appointment lasting an hour, plus 30 minutes driving time… I’d be showing up 1.5 hours late. I’m happy to stay late to balance it out, but I’m just nervous about how to ask. What’s a plausible excuse for my appointments?

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      Yep, you’re just going to treat this as the no big deal that it is. “Hey boss, just an FYI — I have a few doctor’s appointments over the next month, so I’m going to be coming in around 10:30 for the next three Wednesdays.”

      If he presses you at all (asks what it is, why you can’t do the appointments during a different time, etc.) you can ignore the specific question and just say: “Yeah, these were the only appointment times I could get.” Answer the question you want to answer, not the question he asked.

    2. Joielle*

      Yeah, I’d just say you have a recurring doctor’s appointment for a few weeks, and if the boss pushes for more information tell them it’s nothing too serious, just something you need to get taken care of, and you’ll make up the time at the end of the day. I think it helps a lot that it’s a temporary adjustment, really just a few days in total.

      1. Joielle*

        Realized I should add – I’m definitely not trying to downplay the importance/seriousness of mental health issues! Just that you don’t want your boss to be concerned that you have a major health problem and pry more, so best to frame it as something minor and temporary, but needs to be done.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Sometimes I like the phrasing “Its just an old issue that flares up from time to time. It’s not a problem as long as I do the treatments.”

    3. SarahTheEntwife*

      Yeah, I’d just say recurring appointment. There are plenty of things (physical therapy springs immediately to mind) that could be other than mental health.

    4. Curmudgeon in California*

      “Hey, my doctor’s office wasn’t able to give me decent appointment times, so my appointments have to be be at 9 am on X days. I’ll be in a couple hours late late and of course stay late on those days. Hopefully they’ll be able to give me times that don’t conflict with work in a couple months.” The key here is tell, don’t ask, and under-promise, over-deliver. If they ask why you have the medical appointments, get an uncomfortable look and say “I really don’t want to discuss my medical issues at work.”

    5. Finally doing therapy*

      Thanks guys :) I told her I could only get appointments at those two times, and she said it was fine. Yay!

  110. Dragoning*

    I wonder if this is too late to get any responses…

    All right, so I work at Company A. We are a spin off of another company, Company B, several years ago, and are finding items we need to send to Company B. Today, I have discovered items that need to be sent to Company C, which is a different spin off of Company B before Company A broke off.

    Now, we need to send the items back to Company C, if possible. We know no one there. Except that I used to work there, some 4 or 5 years ago, in a similar role to where I am now, so the people I used to work with could take these items off our hands.

    Except that I was fired from Company C after a very quick, awkward term, still in a probationary period.

    How do I approach reaching out to these people? Should I just not mention it to my bosses?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Can you bring the situation to your bosses neutrally? As in, “These items need to go to Company C. How should I proceed?” And then let them figure it out.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I think you are overthinking this actually. It doesn’t have to be you. Someone needs to find contact information for Company C and reach out to them to get an address/contact. Anyone can do that.

  111. Sherlock Holmes*

    I know this is sort of a common problem, but I’m still not sure how to handle it. I have a coworker who makes comments about what time I come in, when I leave, if I’m having conversations with other coworkers (which she perceives as us ‘not working’ and ‘gossiping’, even if the conversations are about work). This coworker is on a different team than I am, is not my manager, and the only area where our duties overlap is answering the phones, which I do about 90% of. What is the best way to deal with these comments? Should I just continue to ignore her, or say something tactful to shut them down?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Respond cheerfully and non-committally to the words. “Yep, I got here at 8:35!” Optional, “Isn’t it a great morning?”

      Eventually move on to responses like, “Oh, mornings. How was your commute/evening/morning?” said cheerfully and maybe a little self-deprecatingly. Or when talking about conversations, “Oh, small talk. How has your day been?”

      IOW, acknowledge, but don’t feed. If you feel comfortable with your boss, you could bring it up with her.

    2. Melissa*

      If Close Bracket’s suggestions don’t curb the comments, I recommend blank stares + subject change. One thing I have learned from working in offices, is that there is alwaysone person who has to make comments about things that don’t have anything to do with them/don’t affect them in anyway.

    3. sacados*

      I think this is also a good opportunity for Alison’s patented Confused Response.
      “Why do you ask, did you need me for something?”
      “How strange that you should ask that.”
      “I’m confused. We’re talking about [Project], are you involved in that in some way?”
      Or whatever.

  112. Communication Advisor*

    I am trying to add a section on dealing with unconscious bias from clients to my company’s Communication Training. I’ve seen a lot of good suggestions here for “soft” phrases here for that, but can’t remember the exact wording or find which posts they were in relation to.

    I’m looking at things to counteract bias without calling it out explicitly, since I’m training to people to interact with clients, where we have to be a bit more delicate in the moment. (Internal situations are another matter and they are free to pounce). Things kinda like when a man suggests a “great idea” that was really what a woman had just said moments before or when a POC is being treated differently.

    1. Sleve McDichael*

      So for the great idea one specifically, it’s great when people go ‘So you agree with Alice’s idea then? That’s great!’ Another one is when people get spoken over, wait for a gap in the conversation and say ‘So you were saying, Bizunesh?’ or ‘I was really interested in what Clare was saying, can we go back to that?’.

      One that is best used by women for other women is, if a particularly rude man is misunderstanding them and ignoring or talking over them to go ‘Actually I think Donna meant …’ but you have to know who you’re talking to with that one.

      You can also make use of facial expressions. For example, if a rude client barks ‘Get me my coffee, girl!’ at their executive assistant then pursed lips or a side eye can be used to signify that you disagree with her treatment when you can’t speak up. You can even just lean back or cross your arms, making your body language colder. It’s not much, but it’s better than nothing if you don’t have the power to speak up. I hope that helps a bit!

  113. Don't want to use my usual name*

    Tl;dr I have learned that I am making comparable salary and have comparable seniority to people with less experience and less educational background. What do I do with this knowledge?

    It’s a bit of a twist on the “I make less than my compatriots” problem. Here, I am comparable, but I am way more qualified.

    The full story and details are that I have been at my job for nine or 10 months now. I came in with >10 years of experience and two graduate degrees. I moved from a HCOL area to get the second degree and found a job in the same town where I went to school (I took a few years off in between). When I got the offer, it was 20% lower than my previous salary had been, despite the additional graduate degree, and HR bs’ed me about the difference in cost of living, which was nowhere near as large as the salary cut that I took. I knew it was low, and I did negotiate, but I only got about a 2% increase. I should add that my last job was at a very similar company in terms of field and actual product.

    Recently I asked somebody who is working on my program (we are a matrixed company) what his job grade and salary was. He was six years out of his bachelors in a different industry when he got his offer. He has been there for about two years. He lived previously in the same area that I did. He said he negotiated for a 40% raise to move here and take this job. He has the exact same job grade that I do. He did not tell me the exact number, but he confirmed that his salary was at least 10% higher then mine.

    I mentioned the difference in background, salary, and job grade (but not the whole salary negotiation or cost of living argument) to a couple of very senior people here, and they both agreed that I should be the next higher level of job grade. 

    I also spoke to a person who is finishing up his PhD and just got a job offer. His offer is a little more than I make, and he was offered one degree up in seniority. He has been a summer intern here.

    I should add that we are an enormous company with branches in multiple countries. I don’t even know who HR is for me. My coworker and I are different specialties within the same department, which is very large. I think you have to go up three levels before we are in the same reporting chain. My department has five or six levels of management. The new grad would report to the same grandboss as I.

    I did not talk to my direct manager at all during the salary negotiations. It was all done through the part of HR that handles new hires for my department. They are not located in our town. I also have a new manager since then. My group got too big and split into two, and I was moved into the new group. I mentioned job grades above. We have about six levels of job grades and multiple levels of job titles within a grade. I don’t actually know either person’s job title. Salary bands are set by job grade, and your position within a salary band says something about how senior you are. I am in the lower third of my salary band. The new grad would be at the same position within the band, and I don’t know where my coworker is since he didn’t give the exact number.

    Now that I have this knowledge, what do I do with it? I believe that reviews are coming up soon, as in in a month or two. I’m not sure whether I should wait until then and bring it up or whether I should bring it up now or what I should do.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Do higher qualifications result in more money in your field? I’m going to assume so, but wanted to ask, because this isn’t the norm everywhere.

      Assuming it is the norm, then I’d figure out what the extra degrees are ‘worth’ and use that as your starting point for your discussions?

      1. Close Bracket*

        If it wasn’t the norm, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. :) That was a little snarky, but I have been in the field for 10+ years. I know what things are worth.

    2. Alex*

      I think one question is–are you contributing on a higher level? Because just having more education and experience doesn’t always mean you get paid a higher salary if the job that you took doesn’t really require it. However, if you can show that you are making higher-level contributions than your peers that are getting paid the same, I think you have more of a case.

      1. Close Bracket*

        These were all starting salaries. This isn’t a question of comparing contributions since we have been here. It’s what we got offered when we started.

        2. Qwerty*

          In your case, the salaries were likely determined around estimated contributions rather than actual contributions.

          Years of experience is not the same as demonstrated expertise during an interview. You have to look at the quality of the experience – some jobs are better places to learn and grow, whereas other jobs are more stagnate, which becomes obvious when interviewing people. I decreased in abilities while at one job, whereas I had a different job typically gave people more experience in one year than most people received in three years.

          If you think that you belong in a different job grade, make the case for that in your review with your manager. Don’t bring up the other people or what they make, as that will just serve as a distraction. Focus on your contributions and why you deserve to be in the higher job grade. If they don’t move you, at least you can then talk to your manager to find out what you do need in order to advance your own career.

          Going down the rabbit hole of your comparisons to your coworkers, it starts to feel like apples and oranges. Most places I’ve seen don’t have factor in how many of each degree you have, they just give the option of highest level of degree. If you open up that window, then they may explain that they were only interested in one of your grad degrees, or that the PhD degree was much more relevant to the needs of his team. Since everyone is in a different specialty, that could come into play for salaries. If you want more money, back it up with why you deserve to be elevated, not by diminishing your coworkers.

        3. Alex*

          But they have the same job, right? I think this is just how it works at a lot of jobs. They have a starting salary for a job, and that is what you get, within some range. It often doesn’t matter how much experience or education you have. That’s pretty normal, IME. You don’t just get offered more automatically, or get a higher starting salary, for simply being more qualified. I mean, you can try to negotiate more by saying “But I’m really qualified!” but you can use a lot of reasons to try to negotiate more.

          I think your best bet is to approach your manager and lay out how your experience and education is benefitting them, setting you apart from your current peers, and ask for a raise based on that.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      This really boils down to what is appropriate for the job market. If a BA is worth x, and a masters is worth x+2, but a phD is worth the same as a masters in general, that’s good to know. Figure out what is appropriate market rate, and that’s what you work with.

    4. Sleve McDichael*

      You mentioned two hes. By any chance are you female? Or a POC or international? I hate to call discrimination but I’ve seen it way too often and if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s probably not a desman. But if you’re not, then I have no advice, just good luck wishes.

  114. Alex*

    I’m so. frustrated.

    My coworker, Fergus, is just totally incompetent and he just doesn’t care. He’s come to me three separate times this week asking me to explain basic procedures of our work. Work that he’s been doing. For over 20 years. Stuff so basic like “Hey, when we design teapots, do we need to make a spout?” ARGH.

    He never learns–in fact, if we ask him to engage in some kind of learning, he throws a tantrum.

    This would all be frustrating in itself but he is the most senior among us, under our boss, and he received a promotion that gave him even more authority, which he has been strutting around wielding like a sword. And when my boss is away, she puts him in charge. And it’s not like this is a situation where he doesn’t know junior people’s work because it is different from his–no, it is the same. He does the same work, only he doesn’t actually understand it so when a problem arises he is totally stumped and has to ask everyone. He doesn’t even try to solve it himself.

    It’s so demoralizing that he gets a higher title and pay than I do when I’m always cleaning up after him and telling him how stuff works.

      2. Alex*

        I hear you, but it’s not that easy. I’ve alerted him to problems, and he just does not GAF. Like he literally will say, “Oh well. I don’t care.”

        Now, this doesn’t mean that it doesn’t matter. It does. Sometimes his mistakes break things. But there is some combination of him not actually caring and not actually knowing how to fix it that results in my fixing it. He won’t/can’t.

        And really, that would be almost fine if it weren’t the case that I am being asked to look up to him as a leader. THAT is what really upsets me.

    2. NicoleK*

      Your boss sucks and that isn’t going to change. I totally understand. Our Fergus will be here 7 years next month.

    3. Qwerty*

      What happens if you let him throw a tantrum?

      Tantrum throwers can be a blessing in disguise. Once you stop managing their feelings, they either explode or they move on. Document the explosion(s) and be as professional as possible in your interactions. That way when you loop your boss in, you can point to the yelling (or whatever tantrum behavior he does), which is obviously inappropriate and much easier to get a manager to react to.

      1. Alex*

        Oh he throws tantrums in front of my boss! She is not unaware of either his behavior or his abilities. She has made reference to his inferior ability to understand concepts when talking to me. For example, I’ll suggest we all do X, and she will turn down my idea because she is afraid Fergus won’t be able to manage it.

        She just doesn’t seem to think she can do anything about it. I think she feels obligated to give him the highest status simply because he’s been here so long.

        1. sacados*

          …. Last I checked there’s a cure for that– and it’s called making him not be there anymore at all.
          Sounds like your boss is the bigger problem than Fergus to be honest.

  115. Jessen*

    I just got the news this morning that my grandmother passed away.

    Work policy is 3 days bereavement leave, with an additional 2 that can be approved for long distance travel. But I’m honestly not sure how to bring this up. I don’t know if it would be an issue if I drove down, went to the funeral, drove back, and then took another day or two as leave – is that a bad thing to do? This is the first time I’ve been at a job that had such a thing as bereavement leave (or in several cases, paid time off of any sort), honestly, so I am confused. I don’t know if applying for the extra time for travel and then taking the last 2 days at home would be bad.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I am so sorry. Losing a loved one is hard.

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking the extra time. Maybe you will want to spend more time with your family. Maybe you won’t. Grief is hard and can pop up in unexpected ways. I’d take the time because, right now, it’s more important to be gentle on yourself.

      1. Jessen*

        There’s a lot of weird complicated stuff of “I want to go to the funeral but I don’t want to spend a lot of time with abusive family member that will also be there.” And some of it’s just that there’s other stuff going on, so if I take the time to travel I’ll need other time to attend to mundane issues, because I am still getting over a house fire! We’re looking at a full day of travel in either direction here.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          I’d still take the time. Your bereavement leave is for bereavement in whatever way you choose to use it.

        2. WellRed*

          Don’t overthink this with the family complications. Take the leave. I doubt work wants an itinerary for how you plan to spend those days. Sorry for your loss.

        3. Ama*

          I’m so sorry about your grandmother. I had a death in the family a couple years ago and my boss reminded me that we had three days of leave — the funeral was on a Friday so I thought I was only going to miss two days of work (I flew out Thursday and back Sunday) and then … I woke up Monday morning and started to get ready to go to work and I just couldn’t. It was an unexpected death of a close cousin and being busy with the travel it just didn’t really hit me full on until then — I emailed my boss and said I was going to take my third day and she totally understood.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      I’m so sorry about your loss.

      You don’t need to go into detail about how you’ll be spending the time (unless you qualify for the long distance travel; you’ll need to speak with HR or whoever approves that to let them know that you’ll be traveling for the funeral and will need the extra time, and give them any documentation they need).

      For your boss, today you can say: “I just found out that my grandmother died. I’ll let you know when the funeral plans are finalized and when I will be out of the office.” (Or, if you need to take time right now, which is perfectly reasonable, you’d say: “I just found out that my grandmother died. I’m going to head out now, and I’ll check back in at the end of the weekend to let you know what the funeral plans are and what days I will be out.”)

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I think staying at your home and mourning is an appropriate use of bereavement leave so I say you should use it.

    4. blink14*

      I’m so sorry to hear this. I’ve had to handle multiple family deaths in the time I’ve been at my current job, and our policy is somewhat similar – 3 days for immediate family and grandparents, and as much personal/sick time as you need, or use of personal time for any death, related or not.

      For one grandparent’s death, which was unexpected and there was no service, I took 3 days (I really should’ve taken a few more, the circumstances were very traumatic). For another grandparent’s death, who was ill and I had a much closer relationship with, I took a full week off, which included the services and time home with my family. For another relative, I took 1.5 days of personal time – I didn’t need to travel long distance, and took the time based on the services.

      You should take the time you feel is necessary for you to grieve. Saw your comment below – 2 full days of travel 100% counts as long distance travel, and bereavement leave isn’t just for services, it’s time needed to grieve and potentially work things out in terms of a will, property management, etc.

      1. Jessen*

        Helpfully our long distance travel policy is pretty clearly codified – if you have to travel over X miles one way (an amount that would be around a half-day of travel), it counts.

    5. Veronica Mars*

      I had a similar dilemma and ended up inappropriately dishing all the details / crying at my boss. And he was just completely astonished that I was agonizing so badly over it. He said “Bereavement leave is a perk offered by the company, and hopefully one you’ll only have to use very rarely. The point of the leave is to give you as much time to mourn the loss in whatever way is best for you. So take the extra time, and for all I care spend it binge watching TV.”

      I did just that, and was really glad I had the extra time. It ended up being more “mourn that I wasn’t even sad she was gone” time than “mourn her loss” time but both of those options are incredibly emotional and best done away from work.

      If it helps you feel better, travel like it is incredibly draining and its completely reasonable wanting to spend the extra time recovering vs socializing with family.

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      Get some clarification on your policy as well. I was told 3 days as well but my person passed on the weekend so the funeral was on Tuesday. In theory, I should have gotten Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday but I was only granted the first two days since the policy stated “up to 3 days between time of death and the funeral”. The funeral was the cutoff day and since it was inside the “long distance” threshold, I only got the 2 days. Wasn’t told of this until after I got my paystub and saw 2 bereavement and 1 PTO.
      Worst policy ever. The day after the funeral was when we helped get all of the paperwork in order for all of the serious financial changes. It was a hugely critical day and there was no way we could have dealt with it before the funeral. If the policy says 3 days for X level relative – it should be 3 days even if you spend it fishing.

      1. Jessen*

        My manager helpfully forwarded me the email from HR, with the policy document attached. So it’s pretty clear – 3 days base leave, plus 2 for travel over X miles. No listed restrictions on time, other than the assumption that travel time is for if you’re going to the funeral.

      2. Veronica Mars*

        That is so so bizzarre to me! It’s really common for the funeral to be more than 3 days after the death! And also really common to have death-related things to want to do after the funeral instead of before, in fact, I’d assume many people take the funeral as the first day of bereavement.

    7. Stormy Weather*

      Take the extra time for travel or however you need to use it. Grieving is deeply personal and it sounds like a lot of driving. You’ll want recovery time from that too.

  116. you can call me flower, if you want to*

    Hi, I have something that is weighing on me, and I could use some insight. I am a 3o-year old married woman in a male-dominated industry. I recently attended an industry conference and went to a party thrown by the conference. Some of our executive team attended as well. The executives struck up a business conversation with some other attendees who I didn’t know while I chatted with a coworker. I was sitting on a chair at the bar, and the man who my grandboss was talking to broke away and came over to me and put his hands around my waist and touched me in a way that made me super uncomfortable and nervous and gross. I got my boss’s attention, and she immediately pushed him away from me and told him to leave me alone, which I really appreciate! After everything went down we discussed it (she was furious at the guy), and she said I always have the right to tell someone who is making me uncomfortable to f*** off and grandboss said the same thing. I really appreciate their support and how quickly they shut it down, but I feel really weird. I feel like I handled this wrong. In my personal life if a man groped me I’d have no problem telling him to go f*** himself, but I have never encountered this in a business setting, and I didn’t know if I had to be more diplomatic in a business context. I didn’t want to cause an issue for my employer. Now I feel ashamed and embarrassed. All week at the conference I felt so confident and good at my job. Now, I feel like it looks like I don’t know how to speak up for myself or defend myself. I just feel off and gross and mad that I didn’t react the way I normally would have. Help! How do I get back to normal and make sure my team knows I can handle myself?

    1. Close Bracket*

      You did not handle this wrong. You had a perfectly human response. Responding to unwanted touching, whether it’s around your waist or just touching your elbow, is a response under duress that takes time and practice to get right. You did just fine.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Yeah, it’s perfectly normal to freeze up in that situation.

          In a work situation, I think I’d be more likely to shriek than swear, if that helps.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      It sounds like it was the business setting that threw you off. It can be hard to tell in the moment sometimes when the rules are different and when they are the same. There’s no shame in that.

      From the sounds of it, your boss and grandboss weren’t thinking that you couldn’t handle the situation but wanted to reassure you that they supported you. I’m betting that they are feeling A. relieved that they were able to help so you didn’t have to handle it alone B. that you did what you thought was right in the moment and C. furious that it happened in the first place.

      I can almost guarantee that they are not thinking you can’t handle yourself.

      1. merp*

        echoing all of this! based on their reaction, I’d honestly be surprised if they were thinking about your actions in the moment much at all because it sounds like their thoughts are on what this person did to you, how inappropriate it was, and how they can make sure you’re ok.

        1. you can call me flower, if you want to*

          I’m sure you’re both right. They are great people to work for. I really appreciate your thoughts. I’m so relieved. You’ve taken a huge weight off of my shoulders.

    3. Qwerty*

      The third part to the “flight or fight response” is also to freeze. We do not necessarily react consistently. Someone who usually tells the guy off might occasionally freeze. Someone who generally freezes might one day punch the guy. You are allowed to be too surprised to react. If you can, take all of that shame and grossness, and mentally ship it to that guy, because he’s the one who deserves it. The duty lies with men to behave themselves, not with women to appropriately handle them.

      Context has a big effect on us. When we’re in a bar, we are more prepared and expecting jerks to be around, therefore may be preemptively defensive. In a work situation, you weren’t expecting that to happen there, plus you may have had the warring mentality of “React!” and “Be professional!” (totally normal).

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        This this this.

        You did fine. He sucks.

        The guilt you feel is also pretty normal, part of our victim-blaming culture. Focus on the fact that you wouldn’t feel like this if he had behaved well. This is all, 100%, purely his fault, and you can focus all the bad feelings on him.

        This was recent, and shocking – if you continue to struggle with the feelings, please reach out to your company’s EAP or a therapist. They can help you process the feelings in a safe place.

        1. you can call me flower, if you want to*

          You guys are so right. This makes perfect sense. I needed to hear this so badly. Thank you so much! You have no idea how relieved I am to read these responses.

      2. bunniferous*

        THIS. You absolutely had a very human response. None of this was your fault, and you reacted precisely like most of us would have reacted in your shoes.

      3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I was going to share a similar sentiment: You are human and you acted in a normal human way. This could have been anyone’s reaction, regardless of gender, age, experience, whatever.

        I’m sorry that happened and I’m glad your boss and grandboss stood up for you, as I’m sure you would have stood up for others as needed.

      4. Elizabeth West*

        Yes, absolutely.

        The president of the company that bought OldExjob came in for a visit shortly before I and several other people were laid off (I have no idea if he knew about it at that time or not). He was really nice and I liked him. But that day, he saw me and came over and said “Hi! It’s good to see you!” and then HUGGED ME. Right in front of God and everybody.

        I was so surprised that I just hugged him back reflexively. He had never done anything remotely like that before and did not do it to anyone else in the room. It was so weird. People asked me later, “Why did Great-Grandboss hug you?” and I was all, “I have no fricking clue!” (Now that I think about it, maybe he assumed I would be gone….?)

        One does not expect it in a business setting, so of course you would be thrown off by it.

    4. Rexasaurus Tea*

      +1 to all the above. You handled it fine! One way you could look at it, if it helps: you did speak up for yourself in the moment, by signaling for backup in a way that your boss was clearly able to understand what was going on and take appropriate action. I’m sorry that this jackass ruined your conference experience. :(

      When/if you feel comfortable doing so, you might consider reporting this to the conference organizers, or have your boss report it on your behalf. If this guy has a track record of bad behavior, the organizers should want to disinvite him from future conferences.

      1. AnonyNurse*

        Exactly! You didn’t freeze! You got help. You made the safer move both short term and long term. You got back up, decreasing the likelihood that he became more aggressive. You got witnesses. And he knows others saw AND jumped in, making it less likely he repeats this behavior around the same crowd.

        There’s no such thing as a perfect response to an assault. And as others have said, the impact this event has on you may warrant follow up care of some sort. Or not. Our brains and nervous systems are hard to predict. If you need support, that’s normal. If you don’t, that’s normal. If you don’t now but do in a year, that’s normal. You are a normal person having normal responses.

        Best wishes to you.

    5. RagingADHD*

      You were taken off guard in a particularly awkward, public situation. It’s totally natural that you were flummoxed and didn’t have a ready response. In a wierd way, it is a good thing that you haven’t been confronted with this situation so often that you’re hardened to it.

      That is exactly why guys like that do crap like that in situations like that. They are intentionally taking advantage of the surprise/shock value to get away with it.

      Good for your senior team for their response. I’m sure they don’t think less of you in any way. You didn’t do anything wrong or embarrassing, he did.

      I hope they give that guy holy hell and his actions catch up to him fast and hard.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        My company just fired a guy for very similarly accosting a woman while on a business trip. I’m glad you had witnesses and a protective boss and grandboss. I’m sure they’re just unhappy for your sake that you went through that, and wouldn’t have expected you to react any better than you did, which was just fine for that situation.

  117. halfwolf*

    let my job know that i’m planning on leaving and it went really well! they’re going to support me as i job search! then it turns out the other person in my role is also leaving, but they’re leaving in 2 weeks! so i’ll be covering for them while looking for another job! it feels like everything is on fire! can’t wait for this to not be my problem anymore! ahh!!!!!!

  118. Gig-less Data Analyst*

    Anyone here have experience working or hiring through Upwork? I’m unemployed for the first time at 49 years old and was thinking it might be a good way to bring in some money while I’m job searching. Specifically my skills are Excel, Powerpoint and Data Analysis and I have 25 years of job experience in various fields including advertising, manufacturing, supply chain and finance).

    1. RagingADHD*

      I started out freelancing on Upwork. It was a good place to make contacts, get a freelance resume together, and work out the kinks in your business model to find what niche and clientele will be sustainable and worthwhile for you.

      The pay is generally a race to the bottom, and there are an enormous amount of unreasonable or outright shady clients. Long-term, you want to get off it to make any decent amount of money.

      But it’s okay for getting your feet wet on working for yourself and learning to pitch.

  119. Lost in Nonprofitland*

    My fear of getting fired is ruining my desire for any career. I used to be so career-oriented on a nonprofit path. One bad boss who restructured our department 3 months later just to get rid of me set me back in my career by 2.5 years. I’m in an excellent job, title-wise, now, totally by a fluke–because the guy who hired me loves that I went to his high school and grew up in his hometown. I feel that I am not the person qualified for this job, and I am constantly worried I am going to get fired. I’m losing sleep over the smallest problems, I’m six weeks behind a major report, but even that major report doesn’t seem as urgent as the other stuff that keeps getting piled on my desk, hence why it keeps geting put off. I have an unskilled staff and have to teach them everything fron scratch, and the interruptions I get, as well as the long debates about the smallest issues, are maddening.

    I had a mini breakdown this morning because one of my staff pointed out six mistakes I’ve made in the marketing language for various events/classes our nonprofit runs–but I’m doing marketing and development and IT and website building and administrative tasks and putting out fires every single day. I’m losing my mind. I can’t focus well anymore. But if I quit, I’ll be thrown off the career path I tried so hard to get back on, and I haven’t even been at this new job for 2 years.

    But… do I even want this career path anymore? Maybe nonprofits are not for me. Maybe I would be happier working as a grocery store clerk, or a gas station attendant, or a job with few stressors, because I can’t seem to handle them. I was SO HAPPY at the job I was laid off from… I was there for 3.5 years, liked most everyone I worked with, tried hard to make myself useful, loved the mission of the place. But in the end I was determined to not be good enough by one person, and my entire career was thrown off the tracks. I am so afraid it’s going to happen again, because I’m not good enough for this field.

    Some days I just want to quit and be taken care of by someone else and never have to work again. This wasn’t me five or ten years ago. Where did the passion go?

    1. Argh!*

      You have a good story to tell a potential employer — “I was juggling so many things I couldn’t focus on the work that I’m passionate about. I applied for your position because of the focus on [favorite thing].”

    2. TechWorker*

      I have been there with the pile of things to do, and the unskilled staff who have *constant* questions, and the feeling of ‘maybe I should just go work in a cafe, it must be better than this’.

      I am now out the other side, mostly due to appealing to my grand boss for more (/more experienced) people and it happening.

      So my advice – which may or may not apply is – delegate aggressively. Work out who amongst your staff is most likely to answer questions directly and set up the most junior people to go to them first. In the worst cases, ignore the interruptions (‘I have to finish this first, I’ll be with you in half an hour’ – sometimes them floundering and doing nothing for half an hour is ok).

      How urgent are the fires? Is anything *actually* on fire? If it doesn’t get done today, will it still be the most urgent thing tomorrow? Is it better to do something sub par, but on time, or to deliver late? What can you start to delegate and just review?

      There’s lots of choices to make there (and believe me, I know that’s stressful too) – but you are only human – you *cannot* do everything without burning out. It’s also worth clearly letting your manager know what the problems are, and what’s likely to slip. If it absolutely can’t slip, then what do they suggest?

      1. Lost in Nonprofitland*

        This is where the situation gets sticky. The hierarchy here is entirely skewed. I am the executive director. I inherited my staff from the previous director. I answer to a board, but even though there is a board president, the guy who hired me (who is also on the board,) is really the one in charge–he’s our org’s single biggest donor. I’m going to call him grandboss, even though he does not give directives to my staff at all, nor is he employeed by the organization.

        I had a recent conversation with my board president and grandboss about the staff issues, because being unskilled is not the worst of it. One of the board members is also our most useless staff member and also does not take direction well at all (and yes, the problem that a board member IS a staff member is not lost to me). Our most useful minor staff member is also rude on occassion. Our assistant director is the most helpful, but he even undermines me–when I had the convo about the staff issues, he jumped into the conversation and defended everyone as if I was trying to get them fired–when really I was trying to make a case for more professional training, clearer job goals, and hiring at least one skilled staff member to take on some duties I am doing that are taking away time from my ED work.

        The other issue is every single staff member except one is in their 60s and loves to use the “I don’t understand computers/technology as well as you do” excuse for everything. And the one who is a millenial (around my age) claims he’s not familiar with computers.

        Delegation, for the most part, has been a mixed bag. My background is in marketing, so it’s assumed I’ll do the marketing. I’m trying to change that assumption by delegating easier marketing tasks. But I have to constantly be on the staff members I do delegate these tasks to to complete it… and I can’t even express how many computer issues they all seem to run into every time they do these tasks. I’ve had to show the staff staffer how to cut and paste, or download an attachment, multiple times. One staffer prints out emails rather than forwarding them to me–and sometimes those emails have text that I need to extract for marketing purposes. They know that I am a huge fan of digital records and files by now, and they nearly lost their minds when I switched us to an eCommerce ticketing system. The issue with delegating some of the more technical stuff is that most of these people would need much moe training than I can provide, and I have even less time to teach them, and reteach them when they inevitably forget, than I do to just do it myself.

        Heck, I have even delegated event planning for three regular events to the board member staffer, and we lost volunteers because she was so bad at interacting with them.

        I think the real issue is I don’t have power over my own staff, and they mostly know it. I do reprimand when I need to. I do sit down and constructively go over issues with them. But it’s frustrating. The board member staffer gets defensive and leaves each meeting all huffy with me, whereas the others seem to be more receptive to the feedback, change their ways for a bit, and then go back to bad habits.

        The fires were actually so much worse when I started… but because it’s still nearly a daily occurrence that a staffer is freaking out about SOMETHING with a customer, or the clarification of a policy, or trying to “remind me” that XY and Z should go out NOW, even though they will all claim they don’t know how to put it together, or do that. I have taken to saying “I am aware that is overdue; unfortunately I have some other overdue tasks that I need to get to first before even getting to that.”

    3. WellRed*

      “one of my staff pointed out six mistakes I’ve made in the marketing language for various events/classes our nonprofit runs–but I’m doing marketing and development and IT and website building and administrative tasks and putting out fires every single day.’

      So, you have staff? Are you delegating?

      1. Lost in Nonprofitland*

        I do have staff. But the structure is messed up, and they were all hired not because they were good nonprofit workers, but because they were somebody’s friend. I’m mostly working with a staff in their 60s who have few computer skills. Despite this, the staff all have talents in certain areas – one is good at pressuring people to volunteer at events or donate small items. Another is great at displaying items for sale and remembering members and their names. A third is a good teacher. Our assistant director handles all of the finances (with my oversight, but that means I don’t have to do payroll or mail out checks to vendors or get paperwork ready for the bookkeeper, which is a huge help.) But these tasks don’t take up the majority of their workdays, and I do spend a lot of time training them on some very basic things–mostly computer things. It’s been a struggle. I’ve even looked into getting them paid computer classes to get more comfortable with Excel, but… honestly, the stuff they’re scared of is really stuff that gets better with practice. And I have seen improvement in one of my staffers over time. But it’s just not at a level at which I can delegate more work to her just yet (she actually has taken on a lot more computer “work” in the past year).

  120. NotUnhappy*

    I am a member of a large R&D organization. Within the last 2 years, we have undergone 2 restructures that included re-interviewing and layoffs. As a result of this, morale in the building is at an all time low. People are wondering if they are going to be next (even after reassurance from upper management that jobs are safe). To try and combat this, a committee was formed to try and boost the morale in the building…and I was added into this group.

    I’m just wondering if other (cooler, more young) workplaces have any events or activities that they hold to try and foster the sense of community among employees. Our makeup is about 65% of employees being 50+, and this has been their only job for their entire career.

    Any ideas are GREATLY appreciated!!

    1. Argh!*

      OMG as someone who got laid off at 50 from a job where most people my age had never worked anywhere else, I’d say that assurances from the higher ups will do nothing to assuage their fears. They didn’t have more layoffs after I left, but I bet there was a lot of anxiety in the left-behinders.

      Are new people being brought in with skills that the old people can’t possibly hope to compete with? Teaching people new, updated skills would give them a sense that they have a future there, and if they do get laid off that they might land on their feet.

      Whatever you do, acknowledge the anxiety and be compassionate! A distant relative of mine got laid off in his early 50s 4 years ago and still hasn’t found a job in his profession.

      1. NotUnhappy*

        We are no anticipating any further layoffs either, are already running as lean as possible!

        No new people are being brought in, in fact the last huge round of hiring was done with my group about 10 years ago. Ever since then its been hiring here and there, we are currently in a hiring freeze.

        Thanks for the ideas to offer courses/trainings in updated skills. I will add this to our list!

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Yes, I think (given the context) focusing on skills building will accomplish a few things:

        1) Signal that the company is investing in you to do your jobs even better, so we aren’t going to let you go.
        2) Give the team something tangible to work on and, if you swing it right, give them a task to work on TOGETHER and help each other through. That will build more community than any number of happy hours or outings (ugh…group outings at work).

  121. AliasMace*

    Here’s a question about when to address issues with employee clothing. Opinions, please!

    I am a woman in relatively senior management role, managing a man. My employee is a bigger guy, but seems to buy button-down shirts that are all a bit too small and a bit too short. As a result, the shirts frequently strain at the buttons, and pull up a bit out of his pants. This wouldn’t be such an issue, except he doesn’t wear an undershirt of any kind…Which means glimpses of his bare, hairy chest/lower belly are frequently visible when he moves around or sits down.
    I’m kind of at a loss here – I can’t really fathom why he hasn’t noticed this himself and taken steps to correct the issue. I was under the impression that undershirts under button-downs were a basic standard of men’s dressing for work.
    Should I address this with him, and if so, how?
    (For what it’s worth, all of the clothing items he selects are entirely appropriate in style for our office environment, so I have no issues there – it’s just size. Obviously, this is a super fraught topic.)

    1. AliasMace*

      I should add – we work in a corporate environment, and it is expected that people are turned out professionally. My concern here is that he is not presenting appropriately as a professional, and this make impact stakeholder impressions of him.

      1. valentine*

        It needn’t be fraught and it’s better than smell. Just treat it casually. Kind of dull your mood before you speak to him, so you’re almost bored. Super low-key. And no preamble. Tell him his appearance needs to be polished and his current shirts are too tight and short. There should be no gaps or riding unless he stretches and no skin should be visible when he does.

    2. Close Bracket*

      How do you know he bought those shirts recently? Could it be possible that he has gained weight since buying them rather than making a conscious choice to buy shirts that are too small? I think you should challenge your framing of the problem and focus only on the facts that are present: His shirts gape, and the gaping is a problem. Don’t mention the size of his shirts, just the gaping.

      Usually the advice would be to ask him to fix the problem without offering solutions, but I suggest offering the undershirt solution. Do other people think that is an overstep?

      1. AliasMace*

        That’s a very good point – it’s indeed possible that he has simply not had a chance to purchase shirts that are a better fit. I’ve been working with him for a year now, however, and this has been an issue from the beginning. (I had hesitated to bring the issue up earlier because sometimes people need time to determine whether it makes sense to invest in new clothes, as weight changes can be temporary, and professional clothing is pricey – I have been in this position myself.)

        1. Person from the Resume*

          This is taking a stereotype to an extreme but this guy could just be buying the same size shirts his mom bought for him when he was in high school and hasn’t actually noticed the problem.

          That’s why you avoid discussing the cause 9which can be many) and focus on the results you need – no bare skin that should be covered even with movement and shirts untucking and gapping.

    3. Argh!*

      I have had this problem, and yes you should bring it up. “Friendly reminder – we have to make clothing choices that are 100% guaranteed to keep us appropriately covered, and there’s an issue here…” or something. Tell him whatever you would tell a woman or a teenager or anyone else.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        I would find this language fairly passive aggressive. I prefer to be told directly about the issue, love the language Person from the Resume suggested. I would be really frustrated by framing it as “friendly reminder” and “we have to.” Just tell me!!

    4. Person from the Resume*

      I think you should tell him. It is an issue with appropriate dress even if the basic item is itself professional; the fit is not. I recommend that you focus on the problem. “You occasionally expose your bare chest/stomach. Please take actions with your wardrobe that this doesn’t continue to occur.”

      It probably needs a bit refinement, but don’t recommend the solution – undershirts or larger properly sized shirts – to him unless he asks.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I might suggest softening the language a touch by starting with “This is a little awkward, but I have to mention this.”

    5. Batgirl*

      I would tell him he needs to move around in front of the changing room mirror – to sit down or raise his arms – before okaying them for work. I used to have a similar issue with tops. Fine when I was standing to attention; too much cleavage when I was in action.
      Everyone has wardrobe malfunctions, he’ll be fine.

  122. Jen G*

    My mentor and grandboss was recently let go by the new head of our organization. He had a replacement ready to go and from the initial meetings with the new guy, I’m very doubtful that I agree with his vision. Aside from my personal feelings about my mentor, the transition process was handled very poorly and I have very negative feelings about our new leadership.

    My job was already difficult and stressful, but the feeling that I have to prove myself to a new leadership makes me resentful. I feel like all the stress over the last 18 months has built up and now that I have no upper management support, I’m just done. Has anyone else experienced something like this? Is it really time to leave?

    1. Argh!*

      Yes, you are part of the old staff, and as they bring in more new people you will have more and more difficulty getting things done. Get going on that resumé!

  123. Lyudie*

    I think we have a couple of instructional designers here…can any IDs share info about your career path? I’ve been in ID for about two years (after a career as a writer) and am second-guessing myself. I find I’ve moved from one under-valued field to another, but maybe that is something more prevalent in tech. I’m just so over unresponsive SMEs and struggling to get any scrap of information. I also think we really need at least one more full-time ID on my product…it’s a very large, complex software suite that is one of the flagship products and a huge eLearning library, and yet we have only three people who are fully dedicated to it. I’m also finding that while I enjoy some of the development tasks, analysis and (to a degree design) makes me want to jump off a bridge (we use ADDIE). Maybe I really want to be in more of a content development role, but we don’t really have that at my company for US-based employees. I also have no desire to deliver training…do folks find a lot of places want the same person to create training and deliver it? I guess if I look specifically for eLearning, that’s less likely.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, I have never worked as an ID, but I did get a MA in it because I was curious about the field and it dovetailed nicely with work I was doing as a librarian. I think it is an undervalued job. I don’t know what to suggest to you about fixing that, but I do emphasize with the problem. Not sure I’m being helpful here, just wanted to offer some solidarity.

      1. Lyudie*

        Haha I appreciate the solidarity. It’s just so frustrating to rely on developers to review our content (and we are in healthcare IT! if we have the info wrong, it’s a big deal!) when they don’t value our contributions or see working with us as part of their job (it is totally part of their job).

    2. NaoNao*

      I am an Instructional Designer. After about 5 years in a strictly content development role, I moved back over to the design, develop and deliver side with “Corporate Training Specialist”, an analogous role in terms of duties. I do the research, technical writing, project plans, design, development, and delivery of the materials, if needed. Sometimes I hand over the materials after doing a run through or T3 with the “owner” or client, sometimes I delivery the materials myself.

      I wanted to get back into the training role as I really missed it, and my last company before this had me wearing every possible hat (startup), so I felt like I brushed up on some skills that had been languishing.

      If possible, identify some stretch skills and work towards those. For me it was data science, VR tech in e-learning, tools like H5p, new LMS’s, and project management stuff like implementation and tracking of delivery.

      It’s certainly possible that companies want more of a “generalist” but I’d target smaller companies and the role of “trainer” or “learning specialist” or similar, not “Instructional Designer” because that’s usually content-development only.

  124. Argh!*

    Got transferred to someone else, so not under my old boss, but the new person is under her (yeah, sort of a demotion but mainly a relief). Been singing “Now you’re just somebody that I used to know” in my head ever since.

    (Used to sing one of Cee-Lo Green’s hits in my head all day)

    The old boss is making me miserable by proxy now, but I had an interview last week, so the Cee-Lo Green song may come back.

  125. MsChanandlerBong*

    I just asked someone I supervise to please stop calling me Sweetie, and somehow I feel bad about it. I know she truly wasn’t doing it to be rude or disrespectful, but it just grated on me when I heard it. It’s hard to feel like you’re respected when someone is calling you the same thing they’d call a dog or a child!

    1. Me*

      You feel bad because we’re conditioned to be “nice” and telling someone to stop doing something isnt’ “nice”.

      Reframe. You expressed a preference to be not be addressed in a way you don’t like. If said person feels bad it’s most likely because they feel bad that they were annoying you. But even if they feel bad because their feelings are hurt, that is a decision they are making.

      It isn’t a secret that it’s unprofessional to call people sweetie. If they get called out for it then so be it.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Yep, exactly. The person in question is nice as pie, so I know she didn’t do it to be mean. When I mentioned it, she said it’s a Southern thing–I told her I know, but it makes me uncomfortable and I’d appreciate it if she didn’t use it at work.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you have every right to ask your staff member to not use Sweeties, but I would encourage you think it about how hard it might be for her to stop. For example, I say Sir and Ma’am. I was taught from birth and worked in a places in the Deep South where if you didn’t address people that way, particularly older people, I was chastised by my bosses for not being respectful. This is deeply ingrained. Imagine how hard it was to move to the West and be told that I couldn’t ever use gendered language like that. It’s been years and I still struggle not to use those terms. So, I would encourage you to be very understanding that verbal ticks are super hard to give up, especially when you’ve grown up speaking in specific way.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I do see your point, but she is older than I am, so sometimes it feels like I am being scolded or talked down to. I understand she doesn’t mean it that way, but Sweetie really isn’t appropriate for work, whether I supervise her or not. I’d be fine with Ma’m or Sir–I think those are more work-appropriate.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        A verbal tick is NOT a way to excuse calling anyone at work Sweetie especially your boss. This also condescending in way that is way worse that Sir or Ma’am.

        The one point to take from AnotherLibrarian’s post is to not get angry if she slips up AND corrects herself, but there’s a “let it go vibe” in their post that’s hard to ignore. This is not something to let go.

        And I’ll bet in the case of both MsChanandlerBong’s employee and AnotherLibrarian, they do not use it for everyone. It may be something of a habit, but you probably don’t call your friend’s Ma’am/Sir.

      3. Anongineer*

        Alternative point: I grew up in the north, where calling people sir/ma’am is more of an insult and saying they’re old (best way I can think to describe it). I work with the military a lot, where a) I get called ma’am a lot* and b) it’s considered rude to not call them sir/ma’am. It’s hard, but not to the point where it can’t be done and shouldn’t be done.

        *and yes, I do still wince everytime I get called ma’am, though I’ve gotten better at just wincing on the inside.

    3. Fikly*

      The person you supervise made the situation awkward. Return the awkward to sender.

      Pet names are not a professional norm. Especially directed toward your supervisor!

  126. Tea*

    Has anyone taken a web development bootcamp? Or have advice on web development in general? I’m looking to switch fields into tech, from government contracting, and any help would be appreciated!

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Disclaimer: I have never attended a web development bootcamp. However, I have worked with a bootcamp in my area as a volunteer industry speaker, and one of my current coworkers graduated from that same bootcamp.

      First, search this site’s archives – the bootcamp discussion has come up in previous Friday threads.

      Second, not all bootcamps are created equal. The one I’ve worked with is a full time program, others are part time. Program length will vary. Prices will vary. What languages they teach you will vary. Their relationships with local employers will vary. Accreditation will vary. Speaking of which…

      Third, check out CIRR (Council on Integrity in Results Reporting). This is an accreditation organization focusing on tech bootcamps. If you are considering a bootcamp that’s a member, check their results. High scores are generally good, but perfect scores are actually a risk. For instance, a bootcamp with a 100% graduation rate may not have very high standards for completion, whereas a bootcamp with a 90% graduation rate suggests they teach their subject well enough that most students are able to graduate.

      Finally, what sort of relationships does the bootcamp have with local employers? The one I’ve worked with will bring in people in the local tech industry to speak on various panels to their students, and hosts a few community events per year. They also actively work to place their graduates with local employers, including bringing company representatives on site to speak to the students, and hosting interviews as graduation approaches.

    2. Clementine*

      I haven’t done a bootcamp, but have talked to a number of people who have. Most of what you learn is still going to come from your own study, and your portfolio will be of utmost importance. If you feel this is the way you want to go, seriously consider getting yourself up to speed first with something like Free Code Camp, because you will be under intense pressure when you are actually in the program. Finding out what is a good bootcamp will involve a lot of research and investigation, and you definitely have to make sure not to take what they say as credible.

  127. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Not quite theoretical discussion topic: When a “working supervisor” (team lead) is replaced by someone with strategic & management experience but no hands-on experience in the department’s specialty, and a high% of other staff positions remain unfilled, how can this be made to work?

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      More specifically what can the staff do to help the new manager succeed? Where “succeed” is defined as “keeping us in compliance with the teapot regulators & countries where we sell, as well as keeping us relatively up to date with production needs.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        In a way, this seems like the job of the actual supervisor and the working supervisor to work out. So, I guess the staff should bring ideas of what they see what they need from the supervisors?

      2. Fikly*

        What tasks that you do can this person take over to leave you free to do the things you need to do to succeed that this person cannot do?

      3. PX*

        Communicate well what success looks like (as you’ve nicely done here): and then break down roles and responsibilities in achieving that success.

        I always like to aim for concrete things you need from them: support in going to conferences on regulations, travel budget to build relationships with regulators, software X,Y,Z and subscriptions to A,B,C.

        I may also outline what previous incumbents in the role did well, or what things were still pending/were dropped that they should focus on. This could be things like: build better relationship with department X so we get info on production needs earlier. Work better with legal so we can implement changes in regulations faster etc.

        It may seem like you’re telling them their job, but if they are super new to the role and as you say, have no real background in it – any reasonably self aware person should appreciate it in the short term as they find their feet.

  128. A. Ham*

    Asking on behalf of my spouse:
    Does anyone work for an academic institution in a non-academic role (think marketing or fundraising for the school)? my spouse is intrigued by a job posting at a local (well regarded, private) university, but is unsure what it would be like working in that kind of setting, even as someone not involved in the academic side at all. Anyone have insight- good, bad or ugly?

    1. Jordan*

      I work in university housing! Not sure if that’s the level of removed from academics that you’re talking about. I’m not sure if your spouse would be having student interaction because that’s most of my job.
      But what kind of insight are you looking for? Are there any concerns in particular that we could address?

    2. NJBi*

      I work as an admin in an academic department with a lot of contact with non-academic departments. I love it. My university gives extremely generous time off for staff (20 days vacation, 2 personal days, 8 sick days that roll over) relative to American standards, and high compensation relative to similar positions in the area that aren’t at this employer. I don’t work with students much, which is nice, because I still get to hear about the cool things that the youth/tomorrow’s leaders/etc are doing without having to deal with student worker issues (“I’m coming in late tomorrow because I’m hungover lmao” texts or whatever).

      The problems: 1. You can’t negotiate salary on my campus whatsoever. HR gives you something and it’s take it or leave it–I can’t communicate with them at all about my own position, and the best that I can get is for my boss to submit an appeal to HR about how I should be reclassified as a different position if I want a raise above the standard COLAs. Ditto other benefits. Unless you’re very high level, you’re stuck with whatever they give you here. 2. University bureaucracy can be a pain.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I used to work at one of the Ivies in the kind of role your spouse considering and found it to be a lot like working anywhere else. My “clients” were students, alumni, donors, and senior leadership of the school. Politics and hierarchy exist, maybe slightly more than a corporate setting, but not obtrusively so (in my experience). Generally, you’re expected to want to work towards the mission of the school, but I found that to be same as your corporate team working towards the same goal.

    4. Aphrodite*

      I am an admin assistant at a two-year college, and I’ve been here for more than 15 years. Currently, I work in the adult education division on one of the two small satellite campuses.

      Working in higher education is soul-sucking. I’ve talked to plenty of others on all levels so I know it’s not just me. Gossip is vicious and quick. The college is exactly like government; it has its rails that have been there forever and it runs on them. Don’t even think about suggesting detours. Especially if it is unionized (for which I am thankful because I have had a past boss who really wanted to get rid of me and my current boss adores me), you will find hard-working and delightful co-workers as well as those who won’t do their jobs, sneak in as much off time as they can, and are sometimes even overtly rude.

      But … it is stable and it offers fantastic benefits (four medical plans, three dental plans, 12-24 days of vacation per year, 8 hours of sick leave per month that can be accumulated, bereavement leave, jury duty leave and more). If your spouse can keep her head down and work with a coat of Teflon it can be worth it.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      I’m in that kind of role in a university, and it is great! All of my previous experience was in smaller nonprofits (smaller than this U, some of them were fairly large for nonprofits), and I’ve found this to be a very functional and easy-going workplace. Even though people here think it is uptight and perfectionist! The work is super interesting because we’re working in support of the academics, but not life-or-death (which people might find to be a plus or minus, depending).

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Because you mentioned it being a private college, I suggest also researching if it is a religiously-affiliated college or not. (Some are, some aren’t.) Some schools will be pretty deeply intertwined with their religions in ways that can make a work environment different than a secular workplace, so it’s worth knowing going in if that will be the case and if so if that’s a positive or a negative for you.

    7. Not my usual name*

      My Dad has been an administrator all my life. Because there is no career progression or promotions he has moved jobs a lot within the same uni. He knows everyone. I think he’s good at his job because whenever I visited as a kid everyone was excited to see him, and he’s always moved up. Uni’s have many of the same problems as other big businesses but with the added issues that academics really value intelligence over any kind of soft skills so the politics can be a bit weird. That said, they really value honesty so if you just be you, they’ll respect your personality even if they don’t think much of your maths skills, for example.

  129. New Boss*

    I was recently promoted and now have 4 people who report under me. Basically the first time I’ve been a manager (managed interns in the past). Any advice on when to correct a behavior in the moment (when others are there) and when to do it separately? I’m specifically thinking about things like overstepping in offering advice, someone pushing back on someone at a different level than them, etc.

    1. EJane*

      I would give your staff a chance to say something in the moment–responding to everything when it’s between two of your employees and you’re not necessarily part of the conversation can appear overinvolved–and don’t respond the first time it happens, if it’s minor.

      The other thing is to remember that little comments will go a LONG way. if someone is giving a senior staff member sass, saying “you need to listen” is overbearing; commenting “[senior staff], that sounds like a good idea” and then moving on is effective without being overwhelming.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      The short answer is you get a gut feeling for it.

      It’s more about the how, why, and when. So the “when” comes first- will it cause a bigger issue if you wait? Then the why- is it chronic? Is it really a problem? Does it just annoy you? And then last is the how- is it something that warrants a discussion, or is it something that just needs a reminder or an a comment in an email?

      To use your overstepping advice example you can see below there’s not one answer to that.

      You overhear Jane telling Dick to use a shortcut instead of the process you outlined. -This can probably wait, you can reiterate the process with Dick and let him know that’s how you’d like it done. Then a follow up conversation with Jane telling her that you had already instructed Dick and she should ask him if he’s already been given instruction before advising.

      You overhear Jane telling Dick to ‘go ahead and delete’ those super important files. – This is immediate, you can and should step in immediately and prevent Dick from following the bad advice and correct Jane’s information immediately to both.

      You are copied on an email from Jane telling Dick the wrong thing. -You can email Jane directly and let her know she isn’t correct and should send another email to Dick with the correct information.

      If all three of these things happen- then you have a discussion with Jane about her unwanted and bad advice to Dick in your 1:1 with her :)

  130. Sunflower Sea Star*

    I recently renewed a certification for my job. We do the recertification testing at the job site and are emailed a certificate after completion. I renew every two years.
    In an effort to “streamline” the process of documenting certification, the company has an app where we can take a picture of our certificate and upload it.
    Has to be a PHOTO of the certificate. They tell me to print it out and take a photo.
    But we don’t need – or have – a printer at my job site. And a photo of the screen won’t cut it. So instead of what I did last time (forward the emailed certificate to HR) with this new streamlined process, I now have to:
    Forward the emailed certificate to my home email, because I can’t access work email from home or my phone.
    Go home, print the certificate.
    Take a photo of it.
    Download the app, create my login.
    Oh, wait, now I have to click on the confirmation in my work email.
    Wait until the next time I go in to work.
    Click the confirmation email.
    Log in on the app.
    Realize I have to take the photo IN the app, can’t just upload the one I already took.
    Wait until I get home.
    Try to figure out how to get to the place where I take the photo in the app. The “help” has outdated screenshots, so basically I’m clicking randomly around the app looking for it.
    Take photo
    Upload to HR.
    Wonder if it worked.
    Three days later get threatening email from HR that if it’s up uploaded by the end of the month I won’t be able to work.
    Call HR. Ask for help. They direct me to the help outdated screen shots.
    FINALLY manage to get it right with the help of a coworker.
    Call HR, they confirm it worked this time.
    Delete the app because I won’t need it again for 2 years and it takes up more space on my phone that it should.

    Thanks for streamlining the process and making it SO MUCH SIMPLER!

    Please, if you’re in HR, make sure that your “solutions” actually work and make things easier for employees. If you don’t like people forwarding them to you in email, make it possible to upload from their work computer. If your certification process automatically generates and sends a .pdf certificate, don’t say you can only accept a PHOTO of the certificate. Accept the file your system creates.

    Of, you know, if your system creates it, why not automatically send it to HR when it’s emailed to the recipient?

  131. Recruiter Confusion*

    I’m looking to transition to a completely remote job but have had some trouble getting leads. A couple of people have brought up working with a recruiter to help find some positions that may not be listed on job sites but I have a few questions about this. One–are there recruiters that focus solely on virtual/remote jobs? Two–are recruiters only interested in working with people who are managers and up? I’m at an awkward phase where I’m not entry-level but I’m also not senior level… Three–I’m currently in the non-profit field but I’m open to other opportunities if the position is a good fit but would this look “bad” to recruiters? I don’t want to sound like I have no clue what I want but I also have realized that just because an organization is a non-profit, it doesn’t mean that it has the best culture fit for me. Thanks in advance for any guidance; as you can probably tell, I am not familiar with exactly how recruiters function or who they can help so I’d love any feedback!

    1. Similar JobHunt Experience*

      I don’t have much insight to offer in terms of the recruiter angle, but after spending approximately 6 months searching for a remote mid-level account manager type role I do have some things to share. The biggest one is to be aware that remote job postings get hundreds more applicants than in person roles. I knew this before I started applying, but it wasn’t until I received an email with a specific number (2000+ applicants for 2 roles) that I quantified it. I mostly applied for places off Weworkremotely and Angel.co and these were mostly startups where I think your non profit experience can help greatly in terms of wearing many hats, budget awareness, smaller team and so on. I strongly considered paying the flexjobs fee, but after deciding to switch gears-I was searching for a remote job so I could move to a different city with a higher COL, but have since decided to stay put and search in my local market again-I opted for Linked In Premium instead.

      Another thing I learned is how many places ask for more unconventional applications. A few outright say ‘no resumes’ but to outline your experience in a letter, complete our sample assignment and use our product to demonstrate comfortability, so I would be prepared to spend some time on these types of applications and make sure you are putting forward your best work to stand out. An interesting request I saw a few times for the more support type roles was to ‘describe how to make your favorite dish’ and I must have done that horribly despite being an avid food blog reader because I never got an interview with that submission.

      I hope this helps and good luck to you!

    2. Lyudie*

      It’s been a while since I’ve worked with a recruiter but! For 2 and 3: they will work with anyone regardless of level, I suppose some might specialize in management but they will have roles at all levels, and they will have opportunities in all kinds of industries and will not blink an eye if you tell them you are open to different types of companies. They want to find a good fit. Now I have really just worked in tech but I suspect they will have more corporate/for-profit openings than non-profit (I don’t think I’ve ever been contacted for a non-profit opening, anyway) so just keep that in mind.

      Also note that some agencies are industry focused…some specialize in accounting, or administrative, etc.

      Also also, I think a lot of folks who haven’t worked with recruiters feel like they can only work with one: I have always talked to multiple recruiters at different agencies and I don’t think it’s a problem. I think they understand you are going to cast a wide net. Agencies sometimes have contracts with particular companies so you will have different opportunities available at different agencies.

  132. Jordan*

    I don’t really understand how I’m supposed to talk about my weaknesses in an interview. I am stressing out about figuring it out before I start interviewing for jobs in a few weeks.
    I can identify some but I really have no idea how to talk about them without A) making myself sound like a total disaster or B) appearing as though I’m avoiding the question or not very self-aware.
    I have ADHD and honestly, that is like 95% of my professional weaknesses. Sometimes I forget things, I put things off that I’m not interested in or intimidated by, and my time-management skills are pretty bad. But they’re not so bad that I’m bad at my job – I always get really positive feedback in my evaluations and in my day-to-day work.
    Also, to add an entire additional level of crazy, I think that I am so fixated on those weaknesses relating to my ADHD that I could be blind to my hypothetical *real* weaknesses.
    I mean, the answer is probably therapy, but I thought it couldn’t hurt to comment here, too.

    1. EJane*

      Talk about your weaknesses, and then what you do to compensate. For instance, I have some pretty impressive short term memory loss related to medications and health conditions (I’m 27!); I make up for this by writing EVERYTHING down, and I live off of post-it notes.

      The issue, from what I understand, is less about your flaws and more about demonstrating a conscientious and self-aware approach.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Yes this 100%. A lot of the “tell me about your weakness” questions aren’t about outing the areas you suck at, it’s further conversation to showcase how you operate as an employee.

        I am awful at time management as a person. I struggle to understand how time works or how long anything beyond one-step processes takes. So I’ve learned to map out entire projects into their individual parts and figure out time and deadlines based on how those add up or backtracking from their required deadlines to see if they’re possible to make. It started out as a way to stop panicking about meeting deadlines at the last minute and has turned into me actually being pretty good at project management. So it’s all about what you do with your weaknesses, not the weakness itself.

        Oh and yes, if it’s available to you I always recommend therapy.

    2. Princess Deviant*

      I would try to not worry too much about it. Easier said than done, maybe.

      Identify one weakness (finding it difficult to concentrate on one thing at a time, for example) then say what you’re doing about it (seeing time aside each day for specific tasks, e.g. calls in the morning, admin early afternoon, emails for 1 hour on the late afternoon)…or whatever it is.

      You can definitely also say that you know you’re managing this ‘weakness’ well, because… (give examples of feedback you’ve gotten from your reviews).

    3. Quill*

      Talk about how you manage the ADHD, not about the problems it causes. I have a rote answer about how I am easily flustered when switching tasks & potentially losing my place and making the one I have to reprioritize take longer, and my strategies for avoiding that. (Essentially nothing besides an actual physical fire cannot wait long enough for you to save your previous work, jot down a note of what you were doing, and read the new email twice.)

      Personally I don’t mention the other ways I manage my anxiety disorder (meds and therapy) and I have so far avoided having my major workplace trigger for anxiety (people shouting) coming up.

    4. Batgirl*

      It’s really a question about how you solve problems like your own weaknesses. I have ADHD too and I talk about how I would struggle to do x, without strategy y; but because it’s something I work hard on, I actually come across as more organised than those who are naturally good at it.
      Don’t talk about your unsolved problems! It’s OK to represent yourself well in an interview.

  133. CatLadyInTraining*

    Some of my co workers always ask the manager/boss to buy us all lunch and act like they’re entitled to it. I think it’s rude to constantly ask the manager to buy lunch. I think he should be the one who offers on certain occasions. What do you all think?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      It depends on the context. Is this just a normal daily lunch? Or is this a team lunch outing? Because if it’s “hey we’re all eating a normal lunch and we just happen to be doing it together, there’s no obligation for any of us to be here” or “hey I’m ordering lunch does anyone want me to pick them something up” then yea that’s weird, but if it’s a “hey we’re all going out as a team and everyone has to come” then it’s not weird to expect the manager/company to pick up the tab for what boils down to a required work event.

    3. Bob*

      I wonder if your coworkers realize it’s coming out of your manager’s pocket. They may assume he’s expensing it

    4. Quill*

      The one place the manager (also boss/owner) often bought us lunch that I’ve worked at was also the one where we were supposed to be like FAAAAMILY so…

      I hope your coworkers aren’t selling their ability to have a professional relationship for free hot pot and korean bbq, because as good as that was (and as bad as I burnt my fingers doing it in JANUARY and having to go back to the lab and constantly use gloves later) it wasn’t worth the stress.

    5. Sunflower Sea Star*

      In some settings, that might be just fine. At my husband’s office, there is a monthly department lunch budget. My husband has been known to say “hey, we’re running behind on a tight budget today, could today be the day to have lunch brought in so we don’t have to worry about it?” and that’s totally fine in their culture.
      It would not be okay in my office. At all.

  134. Campfire Raccoon*

    Today one of my coworkers decided to call out the owner in front of the whole crew – wanting to know why he hadn’t gotten a **real** raise since 2017.

    He tried to redirect with a, “I did look into it, and you and I can talk about it after everyone has been lined out for the day,” but he would not be deterred.

    The cringe, ya’ll.

      1. Campfire Raccoon*

        Heck if I know.

        He’s the guy that would fill up his backpack with the company-stocked sodas and waters at the end of every shift and got talked to for taking company equipment home to do side-jobs.

  135. EJane*

    I’m a young woman (27) who works in the equivalent of middle management at a small tech company that just brought on four new employees, all of them men. Most of them are around my age, except for Gomez. He has probably two decades on me, and is very resistant to correction.
    My immediate supervisor and their boss, Lester, is an ex-construction hardass. He’s very firm, and really wonderful to work for. Gomez is a bit stonefaced with him, too.
    Gomez bypassed me to communicate directly with a client about something, despite being told since he started (about 3 weeks ago) that all scheduling items go through me. This caused problems, of course; I sorted them out, and thankfully this morning isn’t too much of a disaster as a result.
    Once I fixed the issue (and after checking with Lester that I could say something), I had Gomez come over to my desk, showed him the service calendar, and explained what the problem was. He deflected blame, saying that the client had misunderstood him, he was having trouble getting used to our processes, etc.
    I turned around in my chair to face him fully and said very clearly, “It is complicated. But it’s very important. My position is a large part of what allows us to function, and if I am out of the loop, it causes serious problems.”

    Later on, I spoke to Lester and asked for advice on how to deal with resistance from others, specifically with regards to being firm without bitchy. His response was “Be bitchy enough to make him cry, then rein it in a few notches and you’ll be good.”

    Advice and examples of dealing with older staff as a younger female team lead would be much appreciated, but I also wanted to share that golden response.

    1. TechWorker*

      I’m a similar age and also work in tech, in management. I don’t directly manage anyone older than me (yet, I’m about to gain another report) but manage a project with some folk ~15-20 years older than me who have to come through me for stuff.

      I’ve actually had generally good experiences, I work with people who are respectful even when they disagree. I *do* think I am quite cautious in couching my criticism sometimes (which is maybe ok? Maybe to improve) but my main advice would be to a) know when you are right and not to back down, and b) know when you are wrong, and be completely unflustered by it. I don’t mean make mistakes and be blasé about it, but if you made a decision and it turns out to be wrong, or said something and then more info comes in and your original view turns out to be incorrect – be honest with yourself about whether it was the best decision at the time, with the knowledge you had. If it was then just admitting (the right amount of) fault and focussing on how to resolve the issue kinda takes the wind out of the sails of anyone who wants to criticise you.

      Good Luck (& hi fives from another female manager in tech!)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all, don’t WORRY about “bitchy”, it’s often misconstrued and means you cannot be firm and demanding of proper performance.

      What you said to Gomez was great. It explained that “I get it, it’s hard.” but also “But we expect you to follow protocol.”

      Coming from a “construction” kind of background, I’m a lady Lester. Be firm. Be unwavering. Be demanding. Oh no, some idiot thinks you’re a “bitch”. Don’t scream. Don’t call names. Don’t cuss at someone. Pretty standard stuff. DONT FEAR THE SEXISTS they SMELL IT and feed off of it!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Also, try to flip this around a bit.

      You treat everyone the same. With dignity and respect. You don’t need to change yourself that much despite the age difference. I would say to be respectful of his experiences, he most likely has a lot of it. Even if it’s just his experience being alive longer and doing whatever he does longer. That’s something to take seriously!

      But yeah, ef deflection and defensiveness. You wouldn’t accept it from anyone else, so don’t let him get away with it. And follow your procedure to let him go if you need to.

    4. RagingADHD*

      IME, a lot of older guys were socialized to perceive softer or indirect language as irrelevant window dressing. They ignore it, and tend to see those who use it as lacking in authority or seriousness.

      You can be petfectly polite while also being simple, direct, and unequivocal. Your respinse wasn’t bitchy, it was clear and specific.

      If Gomez wants to accuse you of being bitchy, it’s because he’s got personal issues, not because you were.

    5. Fikly*

      I think you need to restate the issue. The issue isn’t that Gomez was unsucessful and caused problems with the scheduling. The issue is that Gomez tried to schedule something when he is not allowed to do that at all. Even if he had been successful, what he did would still be a problem.

      1. EJane*

        It’s a bit of a grey area, because he didn’t directly try to schedule anyone, but he did promise a too-short turnaround to the client and notified me THE DAY OF.
        However, you’re exactly right, and I have taken other techs to task for doing that exact thing, whether or not it created a snafu.

        Gomez is also new enough that Lester is going to start by going over procedure with him and the other guys, to iron it out, and then correct as needed from there.

  136. Quill*

    I inherited half my mentor’s workload, the non-panicked update:

    It’s taken me literally all week, but I’ve pieced together the requests that have been pending since Jane’s departure. Unfortunately Elizabeth has been busy (or sometimes I’ve been busy because I’m reconstructing the history of what’s been done so far from scratch) so I don’t know anything about the position yet.

    However, I’m less hopeful than last week, because apparently there have been layoffs in adjacent departments, and if they didn’t have headcount for my mentor, who’d been there long enough to have decent benefits, they’re unlikely to have headcount for me…

    Back to the old stomping grounds to look for non-contract jobs that will actually give me time of day. Again. And waiting to get decent healthcare coverage. Again.

    1. Stormy Weather*

      Back to the old stomping grounds to look for non-contract jobs that will actually give me time of day. Again. And waiting to get decent healthcare coverage. Again.

      No fun. Best of luck! I’ve been mostly on the contract carousel for the last few years and I understand this very specific level of frustration.

  137. Stormy Weather*

    A question for all the project managers out there:

    My previous job was in a highly toxic environment. I utterly failed and was fired. What’s worth noting is I worked as a contractor for the same company in another department and performed successfully.

    Has anyone out there ever been told that ‘only project managers see the project plan’? I was literally told that nobody working on my project’s team was allowed to see it except for the PMs on the vendor side, myself, and my manager.

    I thought this was nuts, but that whole position was insane.

    1. TechWorker*

      Erm so in my company only management see the *full* project plan but that’s because it’s got personnel details in there (like x person is still being trained up and should be counted as 0.7 for planning, y person was off sick so their task is behind). I also wouldn’t share the whole thing say, 3 levels up, because those folks have a habit of trying pull in deadlines by taking out slack, which usually ends in people working insane hours and my site tries to avoid that… Similarly people working on the project might be given a deadline but not told that actually there’s another 2 weeks built in overall incase stuff goes wrong.

      So.. there is a chance one or all of those things are at play… BUT saying that as a default it does sound a bit crazy ;) you definitely need people working on the project to understand what their commitments are, and what’s depending on those commitments. So possibly there is some useful level of detail you could share that isn’t the whole thing, and that’s what they were trying to get at.

      Or they were barmy :) you know best!

      1. Stormy Weather*

        I’m out of there and my new position has great people and reasonable, increasingly transparent, practices. This isn’t a problem I need to solve. I’m looking for a sanity check on the process.

        I would generally give C-levels regular highlights and milestones but that varies with the person. It’s certainly true that some details aren’t for everyone, but to make it a general rule that nobody sees the project plan sounded barmy, to use your word. :)

        The old job haunts me a bit because I did do poorly, but when I talk about my experience to people who weren’t there, I’m generally told that my manager and her manager were batshit crazy, and I never would have managed to succeed there.

        I was only there for six months and saw one colleague get so sick of things he quit without notice or a new job in hand, a contractor on a huge project get removed, I was fired, and the other senior PM left. In the course of 3 months under the new manager, she only has people she hired working for her.

  138. Miss M*

    Y’all!!! I’m free!!! I don’t know if anyone recalls, but a year and some change ago, I submitted a comment and asked for help on leaving after my third day in a toxic work place. Homophobic comments abounded at my office. Now, I’m leaving!

    Well… not yet.

    My new work place is still working on the offer letter. I told them that I would start contigent on receiving that written offer letter. Unfortunately, it’s taking forever, because it’s state government.

    Should I wait to give my notice until I receive that official letter? Or should I just do it now? Because there is a lot of travel coming up for my current job that needs to be cancelled (if I’m leaving) and I feel bad for my team if it’s not sooner than later. Someone hinted that I should give a year’s notice but that sounded crazy. I am going to give a full two weeks but I am antsy in order to try and have everyone hate me a little less by being able to give them time to cancel the travel I’ve been booked for.

    1. Miss M*

      Also, on another note, how do I deal with snarky comments after I give my leave? Is there a blanket statement I could use?

      1. irene adler*

        I would wait for the letter to be in your hands. Nothing like an employer changing plans and rescinding the verbal job offer AFTER you’ve given notice. Yes, I understand this is a gov’t job. Even they can change plans.

        RE: snarky comments
        Why do you need to say anything? How about a big, ole grin? Maybe even chuckle a little. After all, you’re scramming, they aren’t. Or, “Jealous?”

        You know what, too bad if your leaving messes up their travel plans. Cost of doing business. Don’t let that dictate when you give your notice. It’s about you- not them.

      2. EnfysNest*

        One thing I’ve seen suggested to combat rudeness is to ignore what they actually said and pretend that they’ve just given you a compliment instead. So no matter what they say, you just reply with “Thanks, I’m excited for the new opportunity!” or something similar. Even if “thanks” doesn’t actually make sense with what they said, you just act happy and chipper and say that to respond to what they would be saying if they weren’t being awful, instead of the awful thing they actually said. For most of them, that will short-circuit the interaction, because you didn’t respond the way they expected, and the conversation will just end there. There aren’t many people, even the ones who are being snarky, who will continue to press on and say “No, I actually meant that as an insult,” but if they do, your response can just be “What an odd thing to say.”

        You’re getting out! You won! You don’t have to engage with them the way they want you to.

    2. Kathenus*

      Unless you are willing to leave without another job lined up, in case anything unexpected happens with the new job offer, strongly suggest that you do not give notice until you have the written, official offer and have completed any types of checks (credit, background, etc.) needed. Good luck, hope that you’re out soon!

    4. Stormy Weather*

      Congratulations!

      I’d wait for the offer letter, as it will likely confirm your start date so you can give notice appropriately.

      A year’s notice is completely unreasonable.

  139. InfoSec engineer*

    This is a follow up comment to the earlier question this week, “My employer sent me software for my personal laptop that blocks adult sites.” Alison’s advice was good, and that company had a bad policy if it is restricting individuals’ computers in this way. I want to focus on some misconceptions about security that I saw in the comments.

    A disclaimer: while I am a software engineer who specializes in security, I do not have the years of experience that many people in IT have with endpoint (individual computer) security or antivirus management. I welcome corrections or expansions from people who have more experience than me in this. Please keep in mind this is aimed at best practices for a general audience, so it’s not helpful to hear contrarian opinions (if you work in tech you know what I mean by this) or things that only work if you have a lot of time and expertise and comfort messing around with computers.

    Another disclaimer: I do not work for you and I do not know your specific circumstances, so all this advice is general; if you read all this and still want specific advice on what to do in your specific circumstance, you should call a more tech-savvy friend (for individual computer questions) or hire a consultant (if you run a business).

    Macs can get viruses (or malware, as it is more commonly called by security professionals these days). It is a myth that Macs are immune from malware. Linux and Windows of course can as well, but for some reason this myth is especially persistent around Macs. It used to be the case that malware for Windows was far more common simply because that was the operating system with more users.

    The old-school form of malware detection is called “signature-based,” which uses a file signature (a number generated from a file that uniquely identifies that file, without being usable to reconstruct that file) to identify specific malware files. The idea is that the antivirus will periodically update itself with a list of known malware signatures and detect and remove these from the computer.

    However, attackers have responded to this using “polymorphic malware,” which involves files that make small changes to themselves in order to get around the signature-based detection method. Therefore, more modern antivirus programs should include behavioral detection in addition to signature-based detection. This looks at the behaviors of the computer and flags suspicious behavior; it also can detect non-file-based attacks (so someone is trying to hack your computer without you having downloaded anything). Suspicious behavior often includes attempting to make requests to IP addresses that are associated in some way with known threat actors.

    If I had to make a guess as to why the OP of that letter was being blocked from looking at porn sites, it would be because the antivirus is flagging their IP addresses as suspicious, and the administrator of the software (whoever at the company manages antivirus for the company’s computers) has done a bad job of tuning the software’s settings. Corporate antivirus usually involves some sort of management console and it’s the job of whoever’s in charge of setting it up to make sure things are adjusted appropriately–for example, to flag on visiting suspicious sites, but not to block them entirely unless you have a very good reason. (When I was evaluating antivirus vendors last year, we ended up not going with a vendor who stopped our test users from doing benign things by default, and we would have had to individually whitelist programs like Microsoft Excel.) I agree with Alison’s advice to uninstall it and find a different antimalware solution.

    For Windows machines, the built-in antivirus, Windows Defender, is very good and you probably don’t need to buy another one. For Macs, do some research and figure out what works for your needs; you want to see behavioral detection and the ability to whitelist things (software, IP addresses) as needed in case anything does get caught up in overzealous blocking. Also read some reviews to make sure it does not slow down your computer too much. I do not know anything about Linux antivirus and I welcome comments on this.

    You shouldn’t try to run more than one antivirus program at a time on the same machine, they’ll interfere with each other.

    Other best practices for personal information security:

    * Restart your computer periodically. When it asks if you want to install updates, click “yes.” I know it’s inconvenient but this is one of the most important things you can do to protect yourself.
    * Use a password manager. LastPass is free, I think OnePass and Dashlane cost money but I know people who feel they are worth the cost. Actually update all your passwords using the “generate random password” functionality as you are setting them up; it doesn’t really help if you use all the same, old, ineffective passwords you have been remembering. You’ll need a “master password” you can remember. I think that FireFox and Chrome both allow you to set up password-manager-like functionality by putting the passwords that get stored in your browser behind a password, this is fine to use if it’s more convenient to you.
    * If for some reason you absolutely hate the idea of a password manager, writing well-randomized passwords down in a notebook that you hide in your house is less terrible than sharing passwords between applications. (Do not do this at work.)
    * sign up for the service “have I been pwned” which will notify you if your email is included in a data breach. (These breaches are also why reusing passwords between accounts is a bad idea; if Netflix gets hacked, the hackers will see if your Netflix username and password also work on your bank.)
    * Set up two-factor authentication on sites that allow it.
    * Set your browser to reject tracking cookies and to clear cookies on closing the application. (This will mean you have to log into stuff again. Make sure you reset your passwords before doing this if you have forgotten them.)

    If all this feels overwhelming to you, that’s normal, it’s a lot of information, and I would rather you do whatever small step feels manageable right now than feel guilty or stupid for not being able to handle all of it at once. Doing something is better than doing nothing, don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good, and don’t listen to “security nihilists” who say stuff like “well I figure all my information is out there anyway so there’s no point.” Do what you can.

    1. InfoSec engineer*

      (Also, I sometimes comment as Junior Dev, I was thinking of getting my coworkers to proofread this but I didn’t do that so I’m less concerned about keeping the handles separate at this point.)

    2. JKP*

      Yes, but you still have to affirmatively install malware. And you have to type in your admin password to do so. So this isn’t just something that accidentally happened outside of your control. And with the default settings for the OS, Macs won’t even let you install software that doesn’t come from the Apple App store. For 3rd party software, you have to go into your system preferences and change the settings to allow apps downloaded from the “App Store and identified developers.” And when the app isn’t from the an Apple identified developer, you get a big confirmation screen “Are you sure you want to install this?” in addition to needing to provide your password. So malware doesn’t just appear on a Mac without the user jumping through a bunch of hoops to put it there.

      When people say that Macs don’t get viruses, they are referring to viruses, which are self-replicating and self-installing, and thus outside your control. For someone who knows better than to install sketchy stuff on their own computer, the risk of malware is not worth the loss of speed and performance of running an anti-malware program.

      If you have users that are not very computer savvy and may in fact install questionably sourced stuff, then anti-malware software makes sense even on a Mac. But what would work even better is to set those users up with non-admin privileges on the computer, so they can’t install anything.

      1. InfoSec engineer*

        None of that is specific to Macs though; Windows also needs you to have admin privileges to install stuff. I really don’t think most people who say “Macs don’t get viruses” are thinking about it in this level of technical detail. It’s one of those things where you can say “well *technically* this is how it works…” and that’s a great academic discussion to have but not helpful to people who are not tech-savvy and trying to figure out the best, low-effort way to keep themselves safe.

        While it’s technically true that people need to give permission to install software, attackers have all kinds of work-arounds for this, from making a “download” link look legitimate to bundling malicious software in with something people really do want.

        I don’t think it is the worst thing in the world to have a personal Mac be unprotected by any sort of antivirus so long as you’re following other best practices. For the particular OP that started this conversation, they’ll probably have a much better time convincing their employer that it’s ok for them to remove the porn-blocking antivirus software if they can show they have replaced it with another one.

    4. I also do some infosec stuff*

      Also want to mention that the porn sites OP was visiting could very well actually be malicious. OP might want to check by running them through VirusTotal’s search engine (free: virustotal[.]com). Also, many porn sites try to redirect you somewhere else, which can look like suspicious activity. Or, OP didn’t mention this, but if they are using a VPN from the company, that could be restricting their use. They should be able to turn that off, though.

      To add to the best practices:
      – SMS 2-factor auth is better than 1-factor, but it’s even better – if you can – to use an app like Google Authenticator, DUO, or Okta (all free, I believe). Because there are various ways for determined people to get access to others’ text messages remotely.
      – KeePass is another free password manager, which I like better than LastPass. It is a desktop application rather than a browser extension.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        And when using 2 factor authentication have a back-up recovery method that does not depend on having access to a specific device or phone number!

        1. Plus Ultra*

          My institution won’t let us do that. Our 2 step is setup with our cellphones and that’sthe only option they’ll give us. They claim it’s for insurance purposes.

  140. Nurse teacher*

    I’m trying to break into academia as a nursing instructor. I have experience as an interim nurse educator and as a clinical instructor (current). I have good references and a good reputation. I cannot even get an interview! I believe it’s because I’m only part way through my master’s program. Any advice on how to break this barrier?

    1. Mid*

      Can you teach workshops, continuing education, or even first aid courses? Things that are one-off, and possibly easier to break into? My community center has things like sleep-hygeine courses, parenting courses, first aid, aging wellness, etc. Things that aren’t strictly medical, but would benefit from being taught by a medical professional. Do you currently have a job that you could lead a Lunch and Learn for? Have you considered being a TA (for undergraduate classes probably) while you work on your Masters?

      1. Nurse*

        Sleep hygeine, parenting courses etc. are run through public health which is also notoriously hard to get into. I teach nurses part time through a college, I have taught nurses for 15 months in a hospital as educator and still fill in occasionally when needed. The university I attend is all on line so there are no TAs. Minus the masters I have a good resume. I just need to convince someone to interview me!

    2. Vulture Queen*

      I’m guessing it’s probably the degree, at least in part– when I was teaching at the college level, the rule was that you had to have at least your master’s to teach undergrads, and your terminal degree to teach grad students. The departments where you’re applying or thinking of applying should be able to tell you if this is a policy.

      1. blackcat*

        Yep, this is an accreditation thing.
        Until you have a masters, you generally cannot teach at the post-secondary level. So there’s no “breaking through” this barrier–you have to complete the degree.

  141. Mid*

    How do you learn how to dress in a workplace with no “peers”?

    Our official dress code is business casual, and I’ve been trying to match what the other people in the office wear. BUT, everyone is 15+ years older than me, and has worked here 10+ years, so they can get away with a lot more than I can.

    Also, because I’m so much younger and less experienced, I’m very afraid of coming off like a child.

    So how do you learn how to dress in your office with no role models?
    Alternatively, what are some little tips that you use to make yourself look just a little more polished and put together?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Most places don’t operate with “they can get away with more than a junior employee” when it comes to dress code.

      If it’s business casual, then do business casual. Slacks/Pants that are not jeans or leggings and structured tops, no t-shirts. Skirts that are below the knee, etc.

      You look polished by taking care of your clothes, I’d say to look for fabrics that don’t wrinkle or stain easily. If you’re clean and tucked in, you should look just fine!

      It’s hard being the youngest in the office, it’s been awhile since I’ve been there but I remember it. Don’t dwell on it too much is easier said than done but seriously, don’t dwell on it. They’ll respect you.

      1. Annony*

        Yep. Just so long as you are not going against an explicitly stated dress code, I think it is safe to base what you wear on those around you. If you feel uncomfortable, you can base it on the “better dressed” people around you. So long as you are within the range of what other people are wearing, most likely no one will really think that much about what you wear. People only really notice if you are way over or way under dressed.

    2. TV*

      When I first started my current job, I tried to match what others were wearing, which included jeans. I was the one who got talked to, though I wasn’t given a reason why others could wear jeans but I couldn’t other than they had a different manager than I did. It was frustrating but oh well.
      In lieu of young folks to look to for style, I honestly looked to Google and reddit for ideas and where to buy clothes. I sort of knew what would be acceptable so I looked at stores that had more youthful styles that weren’t too pricey and went from there.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Different manager is a huge thing here! I would suggest that anything out of the norm, like jeans, would be ran by a manager level before trying them out.

        It could be that your job is seen as more “Forward facing” or you see more outside people than the other group. It can also be just an optics thing, if your manager is more persnickety such is life.

        Always remember the “interns” of AAM Lore, the person who got to wear sneakers because of a special circumstance. So if it’s a little off the beaten path, check with a manager for sure. I know it sucks but honestly, any manager who isn’t a real tyrant POS won’t care if you say “Nancy, is it okay to wear jeans? I’ve seen the Other Department wear them but since the code says business casual…I’m not sure if it’s okay or a special setup for them?”

        1. TV*

          For sure with me, it’s the manager and whatever her vision is. I work in the back and maybe interact with the public 30% of the time. The group wearing jeans are upfront and interact with the public 85% of the time, so it really didn’t make sense to me.

          It’s been a few years and it’s gotten to the point that I’ve proven my value to the organization enough that if I do get talked to again about whatever I am wearing, I have some leverage in defending myself and my ability to observe what the norm is. Being petty is not how you retain staff. But your advice is right on for many situations.

    3. Sunflower Sea Star*

      You have role models. Not sure why you’re talking yourself into thinking they don’t apply.

      1. Mid*

        I mean, they kind of apply, but wearing what a 60 year old wears would look ridiculous on me. And, one coworker wore sweatpants to work one day, which is expressly Not Allowed, but because he’s a Partner, and has 30+ years of working at the firm, he can do whatever the heck he wants.
        My other coworker has the same perm she’s had since the 80s, and wears leopard print pants 3 days a week. There is no way I could look professional wearing that outfit. A lot of what my two female coworkers wear would look dated on me, and probably make me look like I’m even younger than I am.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          He could be wearing sweat pants because he sprained his knee and can’t put on regular pants over his stupid brace.

          Ask me how I know….*sobs*

          You don’t have to share their actual prints or cut!

        2. Sunflower Sea Star*

          Well, you shouldn’t be copying exact outfits at all, ever, so your examples are really off point. Think more generally.
          Are jeans okay? Maybe the old fogies wear mom jeans, but it lets you know denim is acceptable.
          Does anyone wear sleeveless tops? Maybe Bertha wears giant flowered tentlike ones, but it lets you know your sleeveless shell would probably fly, too.
          I wouldn’t copy anyone on blatant dress code violations, but you still can learn from us old fogeys even if you think our style is frumpy.
          (And yes, you DO come off very much like that.)

          1. Mid*

            Umm, I’m not sure how that came across, but I apologize for any offense.

            However, how someone in dresses in their 60s is different from how they dressed in their 20s, and both would look equally ridiculous if swapped.

            I’m not saying anyone is frumpy. I’m saying I’m struggling to figure out how to look polished and put together, because in my very small office, I’m the most junior by a long shot, and so I feel it’s more important to “look the part” than someone who has 25+ years of professional appearances in their belt. My older coworker wears things that are very fashionable, but I would look like I just came from The Club if I wore them (think lots of sequins, the leopard print pants, etc.) Her wardrobe is definitely more modern than mine actually. But again, if I wore the styles and types of clothing she wears, I would look inappropriate.

        3. Batgirl*

          I think I’m in the same boat as you, even though I’m not super young. I work with a lot of much older women, whose main concern is appearing young and non-frumpy. They have the workplace capital to wear leggings and stuff that I would just feel too unpolished in. There’s no dress code, nor a dress culture to align with. It can be unsettling.
          I tend to go with knee length dresses and floaty midi skirts teamed with blazers. I also like ankle length pants mixed with smart shirts. I have a really blousey one that ties in the middle. I use fun pops of colour like my red satchel or my emerald green heels.
          I go for lots of sweaters over shirts as it feels smart but low key enough for my no rules workplace.
          My trick when shopping is to pretend I’m going to be using the outfit for a networking drink. I won’t have met the person before, or know how old she is, but I need to be prepared in case she has great taste and professionalism.
          My second rule is it all has to be comfortable.

    4. Lucette Kensack*

      Blazers.

      Take the same outfit you (or they) would normally wear, and add a blazer. Jeans + sweater = casual. Jeans + sweater + blazer = pulled together business casual. (Or, you know, khakis or trousers or whatever is acceptable in your office.)

      1. Mid*

        Dang. I feel kind of silly now, because you’re exactly right. Throwing a blazer on would take me from okay to one of the best dressed in the office, without looking overdressed.

    5. violet04*

      Check out some fashion blogs:

      Putting Me Together
      Wardrobe Oxygen
      Capitol Hill Style
      Savvy Southern Chic
      Extra Petite

      I find having visuals of different outfits helps give me ideas on how to put together things from my own closet.

      One of my standard business casual outfits is a pair of black pants (ponte knit, slim fit), patterned blouse, cardigan and flats. In the winter, I’ll wear black pants or jeans, sweater and booties. My office is very casual so sometimes I’ll wear jeans instead of the black pants.

      I like the jersey swing dresses from Old Navy or the fit and flare dresses from Land’s End.

    6. blackcat*

      When I was the youngest teacher at a school by 10+ years, I dressed much more formally than most and definitely more formal than any of the other women. It was fine. I stood out, but I would have no matter what.

  142. Code Monkey, the SQL*

    Just need a little encouragement if anyone scrolls down this far. I’m entering a negotiation on a job today (first time ever!) and I’m all kinds of shaky.

    5. PX*

      Good luck! I’m also in this phase and luckily working with a very supportive HR rep who said to me: “If you dont ask, you dont get!” which at least confirmed to me that negotiating is perfectly fine at this company :)

    6. Stormy Weather*

      Go you! Negotiation is nerve-wracking. Best of luck that they are reasonable and you get an offer worth your skills and talents.

  143. Dame Judi Brunch*

    There’s a meeting of bigwigs in our glass-walled conference room right now. That room is next to the bathroom. You can hear the toilet flush while in the conference room, plus you can see who is going in and out of the bathroom. There are no other bathrooms.
    I’m having extreme GI upset right now. I’m not sure if I should horrify them all, or die slowly at my desk, while cursing the office designer’s name.

    2. Anonadog*

      As someone who suffers from chronic GI issues, just let it go (in the bathroom).

      Alternatively, is there a bathroom on another floor or in a nearby cafe? If not, take care of your business in the nearby bathroom. You’d be surprised how little other people will think about it (or if they do, it will only be a passing “they seemed sick, hope they are okay”) thought. After all, how often do YOU really scrutinize people using the restroom for its stated purpose?

      1. Dame Judi Brunch*

        I personally don’t monitor that stuff, but it is embarrassing for me. I need to get over it, as I have something GI going on and it seems to be chronic.
        My boss came out of the meeting to grab lunch, and I cornered him and said I need to go home. I was going to leave early today anyway. So I’m in pain at home, with my dogs at least. Home is where your toilet is!

    3. Rebecca*

      Ugh, our office is small and everyone can see who goes to the bathroom too – and now we have a few self appointed “poop police” who loudly announce stuff like “OMG did you smell the bathroom, I mean, who does that! What is wrong with people!” I’m going to get some Poo Pourri spray – hope they have small spray bottles that I can hide in a pants pocket. Surprise – human beings have bowel movements, and sometimes it smells worse than others. They need to get over it.

      1. Mia 52*

        This ALWAYs happened at my old just “WHO WOULD DO THIS” and I’m like wait, Who whouldn’t!? Pooping in a toilet is normal…………..Where do all these people poop………

        1. Fikly*

          Do they think people have some kind of control over what the smell of their own poop is? If this is possible, can I have this superpower?

    4. LGC*

      Oh my god, please don’t hold it in! It’s a bit embarrassing, but it’s the best of a lot of bad options!

    5. TechWorker*

      There are no other bathrooms – death is not a choice!! They’ll have to get over it. I sympathise though, we have toilets with 2 cubicles and an unwritten rule that if you’re pooping loudly whoever flushes first gets to wash their hands and leave before the second person opens the door…

    6. Parenthetically*

      Oh Lord. All my sympathy — I spent 10 years teaching in a K-12 school without separate teacher bathrooms.

    7. Nessun*

      We have a techy cling-film (I have *zero* notion what it’s called for real) on all our glass conference rooms, and at the touch of a switch it changes from see-through to opaque. It’s a lifesaver for not being in a fishbowl for a meeting, and it’s useful for situations like this where really, no one needs to know who’s coming and going from the restrooms!! If it’s a possibility, I highly recommend looking into something like that. Glass is lovely, but the ability to make it into a solid wall when you need to – is priceless.

      As for going, in the meantime? Use the restroom and forget all about them. If their conversations are robust and important, they won’t notice you coming and going. And if the topics aren’t absorbing then the meeting’s not necessary, and everyone should be ashamed that they booked it in the first place, and that their eyes are wandering. Screw ’em.

  144. TV*

    My department has problems and our big director is meeting with us to try to come up with different solutions to fix our department issues. Some people are getting really frustrated because we are being asked for our ideas instead of being told what to do or given 2 or 3 options and being asked what we think of those options.
    Has anyone been through something similar and how did it turn out? I would be less excited for the changes if our big boss, who doesn’t know our jobs, told us what to do but some people like guidance.

    1. PX*

      Depends on the boss, but as you say – given your big boss doesnt know your job, it sounds sensible to me that they would ask for ideas. I mean, how else would they know what to fix?

      In cases like these, I’ve seen that there will be an initial ideas session, and if they are competent, they will take them away, collate, and then come back with a top 3 that they will focus on fixing. Or ask you to vote on what they should focus on first.

      But all this depends on how good they are at their job, and how much they and others are willing to implement real change. Nice that they are trying though! And theoretically willing to listen to actual employees.

      In my experience, change is hard. I’ve seen it take years for actual change to trickle down (so patience is a thing), and in others I’ve seen nothing change (disappointing but not surprising). So depending on the circumstances, while I’d appreciate the thought, I’d give it a fixed time frame before looking at the job itself and deciding whether its worth it to put up with it and the problems, or start looking elsewhere.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Here’s the other side of that – My team is being handed “solutions” that nobody wants, to fix problems that aren’t. Our goal on the employee engagement survey was 4/5, with a stretch goal of 4.25/5. Our actual score was 4.57/5. Why is my boss getting questioned on what she’s going to do to improve our employee engagement when we’re already head and shoulders above the stretch goal, and why are they spending money on sending us all webcams that nobody wants with the intent of improving employee engagement, without actually asking us what would make us feel more engaged? We would love to have been asked what we see as problems and how they might be addressed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  145. NewAssociateNewProblems*

    I started a new contractor job two months ago, how long should I wait before taking a vacation? I wouldn’t really be off because I would still be working & responding to emails. Also it’s a year long contract with just a certain amount of hours to work.

    2. Stormy Weather*

      How long a vacation? I’ve been contracting a few years and these are the guidelines I set for myself:

      A long weekend: 90 days/3 months/one quarter (unless it’s a fiscal year end when things go crazy)

      2-3 days off: 3-5 months

      5+ days: no sooner than 5 months

      I also recommend giving as much notice for time off as possible.

      1. NewAssociateNewProblems*

        THANK YOU!!! This is exactly the type of information I was looking for. And that’s exactly what I was thinking in terms of time off but was worried that the norms would be like seven months or something which wouldn’t work because it’s a late May/early June week-long destination wedding I’ll be attending.

  146. Inside Voice Please*

    I don’t know what to do with a Loud Talker.

    I own my own business and rent office space in a center with a shared reception/admin staff and shared waiting room. Businesses rent private offices that all have doors. There are all sorts of businesses there from accountants and lawyers to a teeth whitening place, a travel vaccine provider (for people traveling internationally), and a massage therapist. I’ve been there for 7 years, started with 1 room, but as the business expanded, now I rent 3 rooms.

    I never had a problem with noise before. With the door closed, you can sort of hear the hum of activity around you, the occasional laugh, and I use soft background music. I hang a Quiet Please, Session in Progress sign on the door when I have clients in the room, mostly to prevent the cleaning crew and mail delivery people from barging in, but it also prevents people from having loud conversations in the hallway right outside my door.

    About a year ago, a psychiatrist started renting the room right next door to one of mine. 99% of the time I can’t hear anything from his room. Except that he has one Loud Talker who is a regular client. I didn’t know it was possible for someone to talk that loud. He is literally louder than someone shouting. But that’s just his voice all the time. It’s really kind of impressive if it wasn’t so disruptive. I can hear him from the elevators and in the waiting room, before I even get back to my own office. If you mention the Loud Talker to anyone else in the building, they all know exactly who you mean. When I’m in my actual office next door, I can hear every single word of his session, and he is louder than myself and my own client to the point that we can’t actually hear each other. It’s also like a cell phone conversation, because I only hear him, but not his wife or the doctor or any of the interns who are in the room too. And the stuff he talks about is really private personal stuff, that is probably supposed to be covered by HIPAA (even though I am not bound by HIPAA in my own business).

    I’ve spoken privately with the doctor and his staff, and they apologize and agree that he is loud, but their response is just “What are you going to do? Some people just don’t have a volume control for their voice.”

    When I hear him come in, I try my best to not use the room right next to their office, and have as many clients as possible use the other 2 rooms that are farther away (which you can still hear every word he says, but it sounds more like a regular speaking voice that the background music can sort of drown out). Sometimes that means my clients sessions are shorter than I had planned as I avoid using the 3rd room, which isn’t fair to my clients. But there are often times that I have enough clients scheduled that I have to use that room or I’m already mid-session when he arrives, and every time those clients complain about how loud he is. I even lost one client and had to give a refund. So at this point, it’s cost me actual money.

    When it’s disrupting my client’s session, I’ll politely knock on the door and ask if they can keep it down. When I knocked on the door this week, the Loud Talker went OFF on me, and I got to hear his actual angry shouting voice. Apparently I’m the bane of his existence because of the half dozen times I’ve politely asked him to keep it down over the past year. I admit I lost my patience and although I didn’t get angry or raise my voice, I did point out that he is the ONLY person in 7 years I have had to ask to keep it down, that my clients are complaining, that I’ve actually lost business and money because of it, and that my clients are just as deserving of having sessions as he is. And then Loud Talker left quite angrily.

    I’m dreading the next time this Loud Talker comes back. I feel bad that I’m hoping he doesn’t come back and finds another doctor, but at the same time, it sounds like this doctor is really helping him (because I can hear every word of each session and have heard his progress over the past year). And I know that the Loud Talker is not a bad guy or doing this maliciously. It’s just his voice.

    What do I do? The center is full so there are no other rooms I can switch to (and I’m sure no one else would want to be stuck in the office next to the Loud Talker either). When I’ve talked to the admin staff and the leasing agent, they all know how loud this guy is, but they are at a loss as to what to do, since the guy has a right to see his doctor for sessions. This week when I knocked on the door, I had 5 clients come in and out during the length of his session, so that was a potential loss of thousands of dollars of income for my business if I hadn’t knocked on the door. The doctor offered to let me know when the Loud Talker is scheduled so I can schedule around it, but I can’t just close my business for two hours when he’s there. I’ve run out of ideas!

    1. blink14*

      I would ask the leasing agent if you can put up soundproofing material along the shared wall, and potentially the door, either in that office space or in your own. This may muffle the sound enough where you can focus and have your sessions in that space when he’s there.

      Are his appointments in any sort of pattern? If so, maybe that’s the time to not schedule clients, take lunch, etc. Either way, his doctor should really be more involved in trying to help solve the problem!

      1. Inside Voice Please*

        I think the rooms are already soundproofed pretty well. That’s why you can’t usually hear anything but a low hum of distant voices with the door closed. I’m not exaggerating or being melodramatic when I say his voice carries and can be heard everywhere in a way I never imagined was possible. The rooms are down hallways and around corners, and yet, everyone can still hear what he’s saying in the waiting room.

        I really can’t close my office while he’s there. His sessions are so long, quite often he’s in the office for 2 or more hours. In that span of time, I often have 6 or more clients of my own come in and out of the office. And also, the doctor’s staff sometimes move around with him. They might start the intake in one of the side nooks in the waiting area, which is close to a different room of mine, then they’ll take him back to the session room, next to my other room. Or they’ll be walking him out and have a long enough conversation as they walk through the hallway past my third room. So sometimes, they’ve disturbed all my sessions with all my clients, but they are trying to be better about taking him straight back and keeping him in one room.

        1. blink14*

          Wow that sounds annoying! Yea, definitely time to involve that doctor in this conversation and see what can be done.

          1. blink14*

            Also, soundproofing can be weird – there’s a conference room in my office space that seems totally soundproof when you are in it – meaning, you can’t hear anything from outside, but you can hear noise from that room if you are outside of it.

            1. valentine*

              I think soundproofing is the answer. Maybe experiment with smaller structures you can soundproof within the space. It should really be the owners doing this for the loud talker, who, while he has a right to see a doctor who wants to see him, the doctor doesn’t have a right to anything. The owners could turf him for this or require him to have the sessions when no one else is there.

    2. CatCat*

      So how much would it be to move to rent office space somewhere else and movie vs. how much you stand to lose by staying?

      1. CatCat*

        * move, not movie lol (though too bad knocking off and going to the movies during his appointments isn’t feasible)

      2. Inside Voice Please*

        I have been looking for office space for 5+ years, since my business expanded enough to add on the other rooms, but it’s hard to find commercial office space in my area to fit my basic needs. Space doesn’t open up often, and when it does, it’s filled quickly. I just had a leasing agent contact me yesterday about a place that will be vacant soon (the first opening that building has had in the 7 years I have worked here), so fingers crossed maybe that will solve the problem. But even then it will still be a little while before I can move in there. And this next couple months are the busiest for my business and every room will be full every hour I am open (9am – 9pm).

    3. Aurélia*

      Do you think the doctor and Loud Talker could schedule outside of hours your business is open?
      Sorry the building (or the doctor) won’t look into noise muffling measures…

      1. Inside Voice Please*

        My office is open 9am – 9pm. Loud Talker is already coming in after hours, which I assume is because of complaints from other people during the day. But for my business after 5pm is when I’m the busiest. 60% of my gross income comes in after 5pm.

        1. Inside Voice Please*

          And I should have mentioned that the psychiatrist seems to be semi-retired. He is only in the office 1 day a week, which just so happens to always be my busiest day of the week.

    4. Kathenus*

      This won’t solve it, but as a short term mitigation try a white noise machine for your office that you can turn on and place against the adjoining wall to help mask the sound a bit while he’s there.

    5. Oh No She Di'int*

      Hopefully someone with more legal expertise will respond to this. But my first thought is that your point of leverage here is the psychiatrist, not the Loud Talker. I think it’s the psychiatrist’s responsibility to figure out how to quiet the guy down, not yours. You say you’ve talked to the “leasing agent”; does this person have building management authority? If not, that is who I would go to. I would handle this like any noise complaint–like someone who is blasting their stereo next door. And that someone is the psychiatrist. They should be the one to figure out the solution here.

      1. WellRed*

        The psychiatrist does seem oddly absent here. They are the ones who would get hit with the HIPAA violation if it came to it.

        1. Inside Voice Please*

          Is it a HIPPA violation? I was wondering about that. Because for the rest of his patients, you can’t hear anything and they have privacy. It’s only this one client and because the client themselves is so unusually loud. Is it a HIPPA violation for the doc if he can’t stop people from overhearing?

          1. WellRed*

            It’s up to the doc to ensure others can’t hear through the walls. Or see into an exam room. Or access patient files.

      2. Rexasaurus Tea*

        Agreed. Have you told the doctor bluntly, “I have lost clients because of your patient. This is affecting my livelihood, possibly yours if it comes out as a HIPAA violation, and cannot continue.”? Because maybe they need to hear it in a very direct form.

        I know it’s inappropriate but would be so tempted to say something like “Because your patient cannot keep his voice at a reasonable level, I and my clients are now well aware that your patient is dealing with X and Y and Z and that his current attempts to solve it aren’t panning out. Has he considered A, B or C as possible approaches to the problem?”

        1. Inside Voice Please*

          I have been very direct with the doc and staff multiple times over the past year. They sympathize, but claim they can’t do anything because that is just the volume of his voice, and he doesn’t know how to speak at a reasonable volume.

          I have also directly spelled out that my clients are very uncomfortable with listening to his health problems and various sexual dysfunctions in graphic detail, and spelled out the specific private details we could overhear.

          The only thing the doc offered was to give me notice of his appointments so I could presumably schedule around them, but I can’t close my business during those peak hours just to accommodate him.

          At this point, it feels like my only option is to keep knocking on the door and thus pissing off the patient until he either quits his sessions or learns to speak at a reasonable volume.

          1. Oh No She Di'int*

            Dear Dr. Psychiatrist,

            As you are aware, one of your patients is excessively loud on a routine basis. I have made many efforts to address this situation myself, and it has not improved. I receive regular complaints from my own clients and have lost business as a result of this.

            More critically, I believe you may be in violation of HIPAA rules regarding patient privacy. Please reduce the noise emanating from your office. If this is not accomplished within 30 days, I will be filing a complaint with the Department of Health and Human Services through the OCR complaint portal [provide link].

            I would prefer not to file this complaint. However, I have sought every other remedy and have not yet found relief.

            Sincerely,
            Name

            cc: Building Management

          2. WellRed*

            Actually. And someone with actual experience should weigh in, you could report the HIPAA violation. That’s a nuclear option, though.

            1. Inside Voice Please*

              I was really uncertain whether it was a HIPAA violation or not, since you can’t hear his other patients. Can you have an expectation of privacy if you’re talking that loudly?

              1. Friday afternoon fever*

                There are a lot of FAQs on HHS dot gov if you google “hipaa overheard conversation.” I would be hesitant to call this a HIPAA violation. (Absolutely infuriating, however!)

                2. Friday afternoon fever*

                  I linked something that’s in moderation right now. as an armchair googler this doesn’t seem like a hipaa violation, just horrible

                3. Inside Voice Please*

                  Thank you for the link. I suspected that overhearing conversations would not be a HIPAA violation but that confirms it. When I’m back in the office on Monday, I’ll talk to the center staff again and see if they can push the doctor to do something.

    6. Antilles*

      And I know that the Loud Talker is not a bad guy or doing this maliciously. It’s just his voice.
      It might not be malicious, but it’s not innocent either. If he’s really loud enough to be heard through multiple closed doors *after* being asked about it half a dozen times, that’s firmly out of the range of being louder than normal or sometimes getting excited and firmly into the realm of “not even trying”.
      Indoor voices and attempting to be quiet is something you learn in grade school. Even if you’re a naturally loud or energetic person (RAISING MY OWN HAND HERE Y’ALL!), you can learn to tone it down. Maybe you’ll always talk slightly louder than others and sure there might still be times you lose track of volume in a burst of energy or distraction…but if you put forth even a modicum of effort and thought, it’s something you can control the vast majority of the time. The fact that he’s loud for two hours on end even after being asked to quiet down is a pretty clear sign he doesn’t care.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        I can’t. I can’t modulate my own voice volume. This results in SUDDENLY SHOUTING when I infodump or get excited. I really don’t mean to! But I do, and no matter how hard I try, I can’t seem to control it.

        1. Inside Voice Please*

          I really think he can’t control it. His volume never changes. It’s always exactly the same loudness (except when he got angry at me this week, and then he was even louder). I think the only way he could speak softer would be actual whispering.

    7. Reliquary*

      I know several therapists who swap offices for one day a week for various reasons. Is Loud Talker a regular Thursday (or other day) client? If so, look into finding another therapist who takes Thursdays off, and inquire about renting their office on those days.

  147. Sally Cat*

    Our organization is a tiny organization that is expanding. Last month we hired someone for a new position to help us move forward and have the person’s general responsibilities, but are still working through everything they will take on. We’ve created new positions before, but have known the specific things we want the person to do from the beginning, even though the job evolves over time as they can take on more.

    I don’t want this person to be bored, but am still trying to get a good handle on her capabilities and what she will be doing. She has plenty to do so I may just be overthinking things.

    1. Kathenus*

      Maybe create a task/project/training list that she could go to if she has free time in the short term. Doesn’t have to be stuff that will be her long-term job, but things to help her learn more about the organization, or learn new skills for the future, or do some work that’s been languishing (such as backed up filing or data entry) to fill time gaps.

      I think if you’re clear that this isn’t ‘job scope creep’ for her but just things to help fill out time blocks as needed while her new position is more fully defined and implemented, it could be a helpful interim step.

      1. Sally Cat*

        Thanks. I’ve gotten her to do a couple of research projects that I’ve wanted to do, but hadn’t had time to. They were things to help her learn about the organization. Glad I was on target.

  148. StressedAnon*

    I’m six months in to a new manager at work. I’ve expressed to both him and his boss that I need more feedback than what I’ve been getting- which, as best I can tell, is a lot of “why isn’t this done already” and absolutely zero positive reinforcement.
    I am generally happy with the company. I am not happy at work when I am constantly feeling like I am underperforming.
    Any suggestions on how to handle this, or is my newfound job search energy the best way forward?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think some of it may be best spent at least passively looking for jobs at this time, then you won’t have that “trapped” feeling I know can set in with this kind of disconnect with your manager!

      But at the same time, since he’s only been your manager for six months, I’d say this may be him getting his “Sea legs” as well, which sucks for you but hopefully once he’s secure in his position, he may hopefully turn around and be a better communicator. I know it takes me 6-12 months to really solidify into a new position so I give a large amount of leeway personally. But at the same time the zero positivity is weird and not part of the “needs time to settle” game in my personal experience, so yuck. He may just suck at praise.

    2. Kathenus*

      Sometimes having a standing meeting at whatever interval is appropriate with a set agenda that includes things like: Project updates, New tasks and assignments, Feedback on what’s going well, Suggestions for improvement, etc. can help frame the conversation. Instead of your hoping your manager gives you the feedback you’d like, set up a framework for regular communication that includes having this discussion and feedback every time so it becomes an ongoing dialogue versus either you never knowing or only hearing things that are extremely good or extremely bad.

      1. StressedAnon*

        I think what baffles me is that we have a standing 1:1, but he has expressed disinterest in hearing about what I’m doing day to day. But! What I am doing now is not getting results either. I’ll try re-framing my part of the agenda to touch on more than just “I need help on these ten things”, and use your suggestions as a guide. Thank you!

  149. TechWorker*

    I had a situation day I’m not sure if I handled well:

    I was starting a fairly lengthy task, which has lots of bits of process it’s important to get right. One of my reports messaged me asking if I could include something extra in what I was doing, only it needed to be done in a slightly different way, so would involve me remembering halfway through the process to do something different.

    He phrased (over IM) this like ‘can you add in x or would that be annoying’ – with not much context as to what x was – to which I was like ‘sounds annoying, sorry, please handle it separately’. He then spent a good 5 minutes trying to convince me it wasn’t annoying and wasn’t a big deal… which to be honest rubbed me up the wrong way! I explained why I didn’t want to do it – but fully admit that the main reason was that it would add hassle to an already laborious process and be another thing on the checklist I had to remember. The cost to him of doing it himself was, IMO, small – although non-zero and probably slightly more than it would have added on for me.

    I felt like I was forced to make excuses to justify not picking it up, and he definitely sulked afterwards… do I address this? Apologise and/or call him out for sulking? Honestly, I admit that if I was in my most helpful mood, I would have done it, but I wasn’t, I was busy and stressed and didn’t want to add more to my plate (and not too impressed at the long explanation of why I should do it). He is in general helpful at picking up tasks, so I do worry that it should go both ways… but then I again I have a lot more on my plate, so.. idk!

    1. irene adler*

      Sounds like your report needed to bring this up well ahead of time. Maybe that is something you might discuss with the report. Not as a chastisement but as a “let’s get our signals straight for next time” sort of thing. Maybe establish that changes need to be submitted in advance by a reasonable time period (which you indicate).

      Boss makes the decisions on things like this. There are times when one can accommodate changes and times when one cannot. This was one of those times when you could not. So you made the decision not to. Completely your call.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Definitely don’t apologize. He asked, even said “or would that be annoying”, you said it would be, he needed to let it go.

      In my experience, a manager’s time is going to be more valuable/expensive than a report’s time, so there’s that aspect to keep in mind. Spending time trying to convince his manager to do something that he could do…doesn’t seem great as it wastes his time and yours (time that he could have been spent just doing the annoying thing). It doesn’t sound like it’s a pattern, though.

      Also, it’s not your job to manage his emotions for him. Let him sulk and if sulking gets in the way of doing his job, address him not doing his job.

  150. Anon for this*

    I currently work part-time at a bookstore which is part of a small chain (not B&N). This morning I got a text from my store’s General Manager (the highest on the food chain) asking me if I wanted to pick up an extra shift. I texted back that I could within five minutes but she replied that she’d already filled the slots. I was a little surprised that she’d obviously been texting the whole staff, or at least several of them – it was not a group text, so she must have been texting multiple people at the same time separately. My unexamined expectation was that she rolled through a list of employees each time this kind of thing came up, waiting a few minutes for someone to reply before going on to the next one. Maybe she does and five minutes was just way too long for her; I have no way of knowing…

    Obviously I know that she gets to decide how she handles these kinds of communication and now that I know what to expect I can manage my expectations and behavior. I’m just wondering if I’m being An Old to be surprised by this. We clock in through an app and manage schedules there normally, and there’s a feature where if you can’t work a shift you’re assigned, you can put it up for someone else to claim, which is obviously first come first served. I’d love to hear from anyone who works/has worked in retail recently about how these sorts of things are usually handled.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I don’t see anything too unusual about casting a wide net when trying to get coverage.

      This might also have been an usual situation where normally you have to talk to ten+ people before you get someone who says yes, so rather than going one by one through a list, constantly getting nos or no response, it’s easier to text everyone at once and then hope someone actually gets back to you. It just could be that this time they got an immediate response and you also happened to be free as well.

      I wouldn’t think too much into this.

    2. Kathenus*

      As someone who’s had to get last minute coverage many times, casting the wide net is definitely the easiest way to do it because otherwise you get into the game of ‘how long do you wait’ for each person to get back to you before moving on to the next. You mentioned getting back within five minutes. If there are six people on the team that could be a half hour to give each five minutes to respond, versus reaching out to all at once and taking the first yes. Where things could be improved, it sounds like, is in the communication of how this will be handled so that you know that it’ll be done by a group communication and first come first served to reduce the confusion on it.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      Not retail, but when I’m trying to find a sub that’s how I do it. First one to get back to me gets the job (and the $225 that it pays for the day). I don’t have hours to wait for people to get back to me. If it’s emergent, I need to know now.

    4. Hydrangea*

      It sounds like she needed a shift that was a last minute opening or hadn’t otherwise been filled through the app.
      In that case my guess is she texted each employee (maybe not even waiting between messages) and went with the first person to reply.

      If it helps to contextualize with direct experience – I’m the first person to get texted for backup coverage at my part time retail job. But, I have a life and sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes, I’m in a meeting, sometimes I can do part but not all of the shift.
      So our managers text me, plus 6-8 other people to see who might be available and the nature of that is sometimes I’m the one getting extra time and sometimes someone else is.

      I don’t think you’re being An Old to be surprised, I think you might just be in sync (yet) with how this particular team fills emergency openings.

    5. Oh No She Di'int*

      In case it helps someone, freelance gigs can sometimes work this way too. When I was a freelancer, some hiring agents would actually say (in an email) “I’ve invited several people to this request . . .” But some don’t. I remember a few times, responding immediately upon getting a request, but apparently the time it took me to nicely word an acceptance and ask a few basic questions was too long, because the response was, “Sorry, already taken.” After that, I learned to just fire off a quick “yes” and then get clarifications after that.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks for all the replies. Looks like it’s common to ask multiple people at a time – like I said, if it’d been in the app I wouldn’t have been surprised, it was just doing it via individual text that surprised me.

        Part of my irritation is that sales aren’t great and there aren’t enough hours and too many of us were hired when the store opened, so we’re all like crabs in a bucket.

  151. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    After months of applying, a lot of anguish, and getting 2 rejections in one day earlier this week, I finally was offered a phone interview next week! Weee!

  152. Anne B.*

    When I was younger, I used to think that the way you resigned from a job was by writing a resignation letter, putting it an envelope, giving it to your boss, and then walking away. No discussion; just “here, read this.” It made me somewhat terrified of having a full time job because I felt so terrible that I would have to do that some day. It seemed so mean to spring your resignation on someone like that.

    And when I say that I thought this when I was “younger,” I mean I thought this until my solid mid twenties. Until then, because of school/college/grad school, I’d only ever done casual part time work for friends/family or work where there was a fixed end point, so I hadn’t needed to formally resign, because everyone knew when my end date was.

    At any rate, I was very glad when I finally learned that the actual process is nowhere near as impersonal as that!

    Anyone else have any silly/funny misconceptions about professional norms?

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      At the beginning of my first professional job (which I am still at) I’d spend a lot of time being like “my boyfriend” this or “at my last job” that or “in my field of study this was different” just to ??make conversation?? and now I look back and I’m just like, ugh, wow, why was I saying those things!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think it’s sweet this was terrifying to you, I loved the fact I didn’t have to actually speak to anyone in person when I resigned. I’ve always done it in writing except for a couple times. It was never “Here read this”, it was always “I have to give you my notice, here’s my resignation.” though.

      I used to think that I had to be ready to work that very day when I interviewed because my dad told me that’s how it worked. [Sure it worked that way…for laborer jobs that he had done all his life but I didn’t see the difference in job scopes until much later in my career, whoops.]

    3. Nessun*

      I remember being very confused about how to leave a meeting, if it was running long and I needed to use the bathroom. At first I thought you just weren’t allowed to leave until it was over! Obviously you’d just have to hold it, right? And hope they stopped talking and had a break for the whole group? I was floored the first time I was in a meeting and saw someone just…casually get up while the meeting was going on, leave, and then come back! I think it was part of a larger “wow, we’re adults, we’re not being policed” realization.

  153. Aurélia*

    There is a logo design competition at work, and I have an interesting idea that I could likely cobble together in paint if I really wanted to, but lordy that’s going to be tedious. I am not in a design role at all, does anyone have a suggestion for a free/trial software to do something like a logo design? Going to be pretty basic, like the office’s initials and a slogan, but I would like to do a few effects to help it look a bit more professional. Thank you!

    1. wingmaster*

      Check out Canva! It’s pretty easy to use for any design skill levels.
      If you want something more like Photoshop, I like to use Krita and ibis Paint X.

    2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      For something vector-based (which is usually the eventual destiny of a logo so it’ll scale well, but may not be important if they’re just trying to collect initial ideas that someone else will clean up), Inkscape is free and has a pretty good set of features.

    3. Aurélia*

      Thank you all! Been fiddling around with Canvas. Probably download Inkscape when I get home to my personal laptop.

  154. Minimal Pear*

    Hi all, question about sick time/FMLA/needing to take some time off.
    I’m going to need relatively minor foot surgery this spring, but because I’m medically complicated, my podiatrist recommended I take at least one week off work, preferably two. My work is not strenuous, and the building is very accessible, but she’s still worried. Thing is, I’m a temp who only works 20 hours a week. I have very little sick time (I get one hour for every 30 worked) and I’m currently low because I’m chronically ill and have used up most of it. I will not have a week saved up (let alone two!) by the time I need surgery, even if I push the date back to late May, which is the latest I’m willing to go. And it’s more likely that I would need to go earlier, in mid-to-late April.
    If I’m reading FMLA rules correctly, you not only have to work somewhere for a year to qualify, you ALSO have to work a certain number of hours. Is this correct? Since I’m so part-time I’ll never be at that hour threshold.
    I think my workplace would be okay with me taking unpaid time off to recover, although the full two weeks might be a bit much. (I may get a wheelchair, since I’ve been considering one anyway for my chronic illnesses, and that may cut down on how much time I need.) But I’m not sure how the temp agency would feel, as I’ve had some rather tense interactions with them, and the woman in charge of sick leave seems to dislike me. I also made some mistakes around calling out sick in the beginning because this is my first professional job.
    Are there any options you can think of that I’m missing? If I do need to take off a bunch of time unpaid, what do you think is the best way to address it? This is tenuously related to my various disabilities, so if there’s a way for the ADA to apply, that could be an option. (I just suspect that they might say it’s not reasonable.) If I only take a week off, I may only end up with two or three days that would be unpaid, but still.

    1. Minimal Pear*

      Also, would love it if there’s any way for me to NOT lose all that money, as it would make things difficult. (Not impossible, and my foot is more important, but it would suck.)

    2. WellRed*

      Any chance your doc is overestimating your recovery time? I feel like they always present the worst case scenario. Have you discussed with her what her concerns are? Since you are part time, I doubt you have many options. Also, maybe after you recover it’s time to look for a new temp agency? Sounds like you could use a fresh start.

      2. Minimal Pear*

        I don’t think she’s overestimating it, or if she is, she’s doing it on purpose. It would be easy for something to go wrong and leave me worse off than before due to my illnesses.
        And since the company doesn’t seem to be moving forward with hiring me on as a regular employee, I’m planning to move up my grad school plans and just stay temping for a little longer.

    3. foolofgrace*

      For FMLA, you have to have worked a certain number of hours and possibly have been employed for a certain period of time, like a year. I’m pretty sure about this but a quick google on FMLA requirements should clear it up.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Yeah, that’s what I was asking–is it a year and/or that amount of time, or are both required? I have a year but not the hours.

        1. Minimal Pear*

          Specifically it’s that the hours have to all be within the year–I did the math and I think it came out to something like 27 hours per week, which I am well short of.

          1. Hound girl*

            FMLA requires 1250 of hours in a rolling 12 month period. FMLA is unpaid leave — it provides job protections and continuation of coverage under medical. Do you have short term disability or live in a mandated state for disability (NY, NJ, CA, RI, HA and PR)?

            2. Minimal Pear*

              Yeah, I was just figuring since the temp agency has been kinda crappy, if I was able to use FMLA, I’d at least not have to worry about them firing me. :/
              I live in MA and am pretty sure I don’t have short-term disability. (I assume it’s something I would sign up for, and therefore would know.)

  155. BigLaw Refugee*

    I have a performance review coming up and a big issue I want to discuss with my boss is the steady eroding of my work-life boundaries. It’s been creeping over the past year to the point where he is now regularly giving me projects to do over the weekend that are not urgent in any sense other than that’s when he feels like working on them. I’m already coming in 15-30 mins early, eating lunch at my desk, and staying 15-60 minutes late every day and now essentially having to be available and checking email all weekend and it is really starting to take a toll on me. I am a refugee from BigLaw where being on call 24-7 was the norm and I very deliberately left that life (and substantially higher compensation) behind, with not an insignificant level of lingering trauma. This job had great balance when I started 3+ years ago, but as I have moved up and gotten more responsibility (good!) I have also been losing my freedom to disengage from work at night and on the weekend (very very bad!) and my anxiety levels are becoming unmanageable.

    I’m really looking for a way to present this to him during my review that doesn’t make me look like I’m lazy or not a team player, but also makes clear that this is not what I signed up for, they don’t pay me nearly enough (and frankly could not pay me enough) to be available around the clock. I like the company and I like my work but, I need to keep it generally within standard business hours. Obviously I can be available for truly urgent matters, but that has to be the rare exception. Any ideas for scripts? FWIW, I am Salaried-Exempt, and am single/childless, so I can’t use those kinds of responsibilities as an excuse.

    1. CTT*

      This may be a silly question, but has he explicitly said that he wants you to do these things during the weekend when he gives them to you? I often give things to the next person on the next step of a project over the weekend, not because I need it done Sunday, but because Saturday would be my only chance to do X or I needed to catch up on work.

      1. WellRed*

        This was my thought. Have you just done everything put your way? Have you been asked to come in early and skip lunch? Also, single/childless status doesn’t matter and shouldn’t even be part of the equation or conversation.

      2. BigLaw Refugee*

        Yes, the weekend work is always explicit, including him calling me on my cell on Saturday morning at 8 am to ask if I saw the email he sent me at 7:30.

        1. valentine*

          If you were in the first week or three of this, I would say to dial it back, but dropping off the map could hurt you here. Ideally, you would’ve turned off your phone or put him on do not disturb when you were out of the office, and not agreed to deadlines that meant surrendering lunch or working more than 30 minutes more per day.

          I was going to say don’t wait for the review, but that makes sense if you start resisting now. Put him on do not disturb until noon Saturday, then respond that you can’t do the Thing because you “have a prior commitment.” No details. Just something you can’t change. Say you’re booked for Sunday as well and will be in at your actual start time on Monday (not early). You don’t want to name problems lest the transgressor “solve” them for you. Don’t give up your lunch or work more than 15 minutes late. When he says, “Do the thing by 1:00,” but your lunch is at noon, say, “I expect to have it by x:00.” Rinse and repeat. Don’t agree to anything that means working flat out or starving or making your bladder cry out for mercy.

          Your reason for pushing yourself to meet all these wild deadlines is important. Is he intimidating? Did you think he would threaten to fire you if you said you couldn’t make a deadline? Would he consider this reclaiming of your time off as a negative to mention on your review? If so, you might want to wait until you’re safely past it, though, with that kind of person, there’s no such thing, yeah?

    2. Close Bracket*

      Maybe ask how you can triage the stuff he gives you outside working hours into things that are urgent vs things that can wait until the office is open?

      If you just don’t read email as often, what happens?

      I wouldn’t wait for your review. I would make this a separate discuss, maybe after your review so you don’t influence the review.

      1. BigLaw Refugee*

        There isn’t much opportunity for triage, the weekend work tends to be fairly task specific. A recent example is last weekend (President’s day). He sent me something Saturday morning and said he wanted a draft back by the time he’d be off his flight that eve at 6 pm. I turned that around in time. He then sent me a message on Sunday he was getting comments from a few other people to incorporate, called me at 2 pm to discuss, then started to send around 4. I sent back the draft Saturday evening, to which he gave me more comments and asked to turn around by mid-morning on Monday (which was supposed to be a holiday). I got them in by 11, and he said to standby for further revisions. Those revisions never came, but I basically spent my whole “holiday” having to check my email constantly.

        Another time, he sent me an email on Sunday afternoon, which I didn’t see until Monday morning and he was pretty unhappy about it. Sometimes if I don’t respond right away to email, he’ll follow up with a text and/or a call, so I can’t really just ignore it.

        I only thought about doing it at the review as it is scheduled for next week and it seemed a natural time to talk about what is and isn’t working. I don’t think he’s a bad guy, he’s just a total workaholic and seems to think that everyone else should be, too.

        2. WellRed*

          You asked for scripts. I think your post is actually good, straightforward and clear. You left that type of environment for a reason ( did you take a pay cut?), this is not what you signed up. Don’t give too many explanations or he may try to talk you into it.

        3. Friday afternoon fever*

          I just want to say that you absolutely *can* not respond. You can ignore the calls and texts for hours and lie about leaving your phone in the other room or turning it off or not having service. Obviously there are larger issues at play, ie your boss’s expectations, but you have opportunities to advocate for yourself and set and enforce boundaries. You can also prep him to expect you to not answer by saying “I’m going off grid this weekend to recharge!” Right now, you’re training him to expect that if he does x, you’ll do weekend and after-hours work.

          Have you ever said you won’t or can’t do this? Or have you begrudgingly done it?

          You do not need children to say you need time off work, and it’s not an excuse, it’s a necessity.

          I used to work in an industry where I was 9-5 and everyone else was nearly 24/7. I survived by articulating clear boundaries, albeit with my boss’s blessing — ‘Sorry, I’m off / sick / on vacation right now, I can do this (day back at work)’ for anything not truly urgent, a literal two second response, or occasionally for coworkers I liked who generally respected my boundaries.

          Don’t say they’re not paying you enough to b that available unless you would accept a raise to continue being always available. It’s totally valid to feel but not useful negotiating here

  156. kikishua*

    What does “reputationally difficult” actually mean? It’s in a job description for something I want to apply for. I know it’s going to be a tricky job, and that people will be rather cynical towards the person in the role! The wording is “work… can be reputationally difficult”. Does it mean “this work could give you a bad reputation”?

    2. BigLaw Refugee*

      Depending on whether its the role or the company, I’d guess that it means you either have to be the bad guy with regard to your colleagues, or perhaps it’s repping a product or service people find distasteful (big tobacco, management-side in union disputes, etc.)

    3. irene adler*

      From a QC (quality control) standpoint, everyone hates the QC person because QC’s role is to accept or reject your work product. It’s not personal; it’s based on whether your work product meets specification.
      But people take it personally. Some quibble. Folks will insist their interpretation of the specification is correct- and you are not. But as QC you have to be firm, even difficult, at times. That becomes your reputation.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      I agree with Irene Adler about the QC role. I’d add that if it’s something that involves being a stickler, be sure to ask about how the company supports the position. If it’s your job to make sure that standards are being met (especially if it’s to do with legal or safety reasons) and you are required to nitpick and be “difficult”, your success in that role is going to be dependent on how the environment supports you.

      It’s one thing to grumble about having to take time to fix semi-colons and replace dashes with em-dashes, but do it anyway because it’s the right thing to do and you recognize the important and necessary role the proofreader plays, it’s another if you get fought at every turn and constantly get steamrolled by managers who don’t want to listen or take corrections personally.

    5. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I have not clue that it actually means that but I would interpret it as “this work could give you a bad reputation.” I am thinking working in the sex industry or something. You may just be an accountant for a film company but if it is an adult film company it can be “reputationally difficult”.

    6. NicoleK*

      When I think of a job that is reputationally difficult: child protection roles, roles in auditing, quality control, or compliance comes to mind.

    8. Clementine*

      From Googling, this seems to apply to cases involving insurance defense or criminal defense. For example, denying claims can be reputationally difficult for an insurer. Defending criminal defendants in particular cases can be reputationally difficult for the law firm, and so on.

  157. Aphrodite*

    I’m on the hiring committee for my college along with five other colleagues. We received the applications/resumes from HR after they had filtered out the unacceptable ones. From those, we narrowed it down to nine applicants who we will interview in a group interview next week.

    Before we met to discuss the apps we had to read them and rate them. The first one I picked up and went through was from a a woman, let’s say Amelia Airhart, who seemed to be okay if not exciting. Then I got to her resume where at the top, in big letters, was the name Jeff Jeffreys. I looked, looked again, went back to to the application, saw it was Amelia, went back to the resume, saw it was Jeff, and repeated the whole thing.

    The really weird thing is that not a single other person who is on the committee with me noticed that. Fortunately, she was one of the eliminated ones for other reasons but to make a mistake like that *shakes head* is … baffling. (Of course, having worked as an editor, I notice every damnable error but this one in about a 30-40 point typeface was quite something.

      1. Aphrodite*

        No. You have to apply online, fill out the application and then attach the extra materials to your application. Each application (for each job) gets a unique identifying number for HR. Whoever was filling out the application attached the resume. It was the weirdest error I have ever seen simply because it was so damn big.

        On the other hand, no one else noticed it either . . .

        1. Close Bracket*

          Whoever was filling out the application

          I wonder if there was an autofill error happening there.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Yeah. I guess I could see this easily being some weird computer error rather than a giant glaring typo. Mostly because that’s just such a big typo.

      2. we're basically gods*

        Jeff Jeffreys sounds like a name that someone might have provided on a template for resume formatting that Amelia may have forgotten to change out.

    2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Are you sure they were supposed to go together? Was the info on the application and the resume the same? Did HR maybe mix them up somehow?

      Short of that, WOW! That is a huge error. I mean, 30pt typeface, how does one miss that?

    3. Clementine*

      I agree this is a real long shot, but is it possible this is a case where someone is transitioning and has chosen a different name, and somehow their documents didn’t all get changed to the new name?

      1. valentine*

        is it possible this is a case where someone is transitioning
        This is where I thought this was going. I would follow up and add the reason to their file, in case they apply again and to help them now.

  158. 7310*

    Anyone work full time at a “traditional” 9-5 while operating a small farm or ranch?
    I would like to hear about your experiences with project management, goal setting, marketing, etc.

    Spouse and I acquired a 40 acre agricultural property (central Virginia) currently split between timber and fields. The fields had been leased by a local farmer (rotating soy beans, cotton, peanuts) but he was not invited back.

    We both work full-time so looking for ideas to make the place pay for itself without killing ourselves. The brunt of planning and organization falls to me so…

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      The only person I know who does this successfully (50 acres) has one spouse who takes care of the kids and run the farm. The other works full time at a very well paying job for health benefits and income. Not sure how to pull this off if you both work.

      1. 7310*

        Yeah, I think my husband has fantasies of repairing farm equipment for neighbors so he can stay on the property while I work for benefits…

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          The way they made this work was that A: She really didn’t want to be a stay at home Mom (like hated it with a passion) and B: He takes care of the kids which cuts daycare costs. I think… Well, your marriage is your business, but I think to make this work you both have to feel like the other partner is pulling their weight, so to speak. They seem super happy and it works for them. I’m sure 100% sure it would work for me and my partner.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Can you rent it out to dog walking companies? I’ve heard of services that involve people taking their dog charges to open areas for exercise/play and they rent the use of the space from the land owners.

      1. 7310*

        That is a neat idea and goes along with the idea of garden plot rentals…Bring your dog to garden day!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just to confirm, you own the land but are still going to lease it out? Because you will never be able to ranch/farm it yourself if you want a 40hr week!

      You will probably do best by finding a business consultant in your area who’s familiar with leasing land. Continue to be “landlords” and collect checks.

      I only know this from the outside knowing farmers and ranchers, it’s rarely a good paying gig. It’s hard to make a living off the land.

      Have you thought of a “Christmas Tree” kind of farm? Or perhaps “pumpkin patch” or “corn maze” kind of adventure? If you can make it a destination location, that may help. Lots of the areas around where I grew up did well in that kind of stuff. People will come from miles around for a good pumpkin patch! You could then have some kind of other “shindigs”. Can you make it into a wedding destination/location?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You could also make it into a sanctuary if you like animals.

          I know of a beautiful goat sanctuary up the way. But then it’s only going to make you money if you really market it and get visitors to gift to you. But really ideally, you’d find a project that made you happy and fulfilled, so the work won’t burn you out.

    4. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      If you have the facilities, maybe lease it to a horse boarding/training facility.

    5. 7310*

      Thank you everyone!
      The destination/sanctuary ideas are where I am landing.
      I want very much to lease the field acreage but the previous farmer did more harm than good-the land is exhausted (I can’t even grow weeds) and I am working with the CoEx on a plan to get it healthy again.

  159. Negotiating Government Jobs*

    Hi Everyone – I had a question about pay steps in government jobs I was hoping some of you might have insight to. I am in the final round of interviews for a government position (it’s a county/state position, not federal) that I am very interested in. In case I am offered the position, I was wondering how negotiation works for such positions? My education and experience are far beyond the minimum qualifications for the job and from what I can tell so far, also far beyond that of most applicants. Because of this, I believe that the very top of the posted salary range would be fair compensation (which is still below market pay for my skills and qualifications in industry, but reasonably close). How likely are they to consider offering me the top of the published salary range right off the bat or even later if I try to negotiate for it? Do most government jobs only make offers at the bottom of the pay steps as a matter of course? Other than the pay step, what other things are negotiable at the state/county level (and I realize that this will likely vary according to location, but I’m curious). Also, when you move to a higher grade upon promotions, do you automatically get placed at an equal or higher salary, even if the lower salaries in the next grade are lower than the higher salaries in the previous grade (i.e. if grade 1 step 10 pays more than grade 2 step 1)?

    Thank you very much!

    1. foolofgrace*

      I am a state employee in Large Midwest City, hired last May with a six-month probation period. Before my interview I was told that the salary would be X with no negotiation possible. (X happened to be the top of the scale, I too am overqualified for this position and I bring good things to the role.) The benefits are written in stone so that they’re the same for all employees (though I don’t know about director-level staff). Upon promotion to a different position, you start a new six-month probation period but it is likely that I would receive the top end of the pay scale for that job; the lower ends would be less than I’m making now. I hope this helps. On the positive side, there’s good job security here (a big reason why I took this FTE; I’d been a contractor for many years).

    2. CheeryO*

      I think it varies. You could absolutely ask, though, either in your final interview or upon getting an offer. Just say something like, “Just to be clear, is there any room for negotiation in the starting pay, or is it set in stone?”

      Just as one data point, I was slightly overqualified for my current state government job, and I was told that there was zero flexibility in starting pay. It was fair, and there are automatic raises every year for X years, so I was fine with it, but it does make the advertised salary range a bit misleading.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Very unlikely- if it works like it does in my state. The grades are assigned by HR and are based on the listed qualifications, therefore everyone comes in at the bottom of the scale. It doesn’t matter if you are over qualified, someone less qualified could do the job thertefore the grade resembles that. The highest you can go without a waiver (which are rarely granted) is 5 steps into the grade. No one is ever brought in at the top of the grade, in part because once you hit the top of the Grade, no further raises can be given- including cost of living, because cost of living raises act as part of the steps in the grade- so like if there’s a 3% COL increase, that’s treated as “Six Steps”or whatever. No one really ever gets to the top of the Grade, which is partly why our Grades are so HUGE- like mine is a 60,000 dollar spread from the bottom to the top.

      If you get a promotion to a new grade, you get the grade base salary unless it is lower than your current salary, in which case you get a 5% raise- whichever is greater, I think. If you check the Payroll website, it should explain the promotion rules for your state. Mine does.

      I’m not 100% sure I’m explaining this well. Ask if you have questions.

    4. StateEmployeeAnon*

      I’m a state employee in a Southern state, and there is definitely some wiggle room within the range for us, but a hard stop at the top of the range. I know for my state all state employee salaries are public knowledge, if they are in yours as well you should look to see what other people at the same level are making. For us nothing else is negotiable – we get the same PTO, same healthcare, etc. We also get standard raises of 7% based on starting salary by percentage for every promotion you get (but no cost of living increase, so we tend to move to different positions every year or two). For us you get the same raise whether you jump up 1 level or 5, and no raises if you go down or make a lateral move, so people planning on staying a while carefully only make 1 level jumps.

    5. cactus lady*

      From my experience as a state employee (in 2 different states) it always worked the same way: the salary range is divided into 4 quartiles and they use your experience to determine which you qualify for. Generally speaking, they like to hire people into the middle quartiles (why, I don’t know, but this was always the guidance I received when hiring – probably because the max salary listed is the max they can ever pay this position). To determine the quartiles, find the midpoint of the entire range, and the midpoint of each midpoint. If you receive an offer, you can use that as a guide to see where they are placing you on the scale. While you can always ask for more, it’s not likely to get approved if it’s outside of the quartile they determined you are in.

      Also, getting promoted to a higher grade was rare from my experience. You needed to apply and go through the hiring process all over again. It happened, but rarely – but it was far more likely that if you wanted to be promoted, you needed to apply for a different position.

      I hope this is helpful, good luck!

  160. Geomancer*

    I just had an interview that I think went really well! It started at 10:30 with the VP over HR and the group leader I’d be reporting to, plus his boss came in a little later. Then the group leader asked me to go to lunch with him and the colleague who I’d be a counterpart to. They said I’ll hear back within a week. ☺️

  161. Bad Janet*

    Recommended online Excel classes? Boss approved some training for me. I’m looking for Excel skills that are more data analysis than accounting.

    Thanks!

    2. Emma*

      edX has several on “data analysis using Excel” (search for that phrase) which are offered by Microsoft. Free unless you want the certificate, and I learned SO MUCH. I took them while between jobs and when I started at my new place my boss was blown away by the reports I built using what I picked up.

      1. anonymuskrat*

        Not a class, but if you’re on the Windows version, the ASAP add in is awesome, and free for personal/nonprofit use.

  162. Odge*

    Anyone have a checklist or an article about things to make sure you take care of during your notice period? I’m leaving my first full time job next week and I’m trying to document as much as possible, but I want to make sure I’m not forgetting anything!

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      Not sure if this is what you had in mind, and this comment will go into moderation, but when it emerges you’ll see that AAM did run a column a few years back called “What you need to do before you quit your job” (located here: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/09/what-you-need-to-do-before-you-quit-your-job.html)

      Other things commenters mentioned:
      – use your insurance benefits as much as is feasible before moving on
      – secure free or low-cost online storage to back up your personal files (Googledrive and Microsoft One Drive were suggested). Otherwise, emailing stuff to yourself or moving it to a thumb drive is easier.
      – make sure you get all of your mileage/expense reimbursements submitted and paid for, and make sure everything on your corporate card is accounted for properly.
      – don’t forget to check your company’s vacation and holiday policy, because you sometimes you only get cash for a max number of days remaining when you leave.

  163. Therese*

    Does anyone keep a file of things they’ve improved career wise? Do you have a template of things you include? My boss wants a list of things I’ve taken on and improved since my last raise and I’m trying to think of a template of things to mention. I know I am forgetting things.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I keep a document of accomplishments, it’s been insanely helpful when it comes time to write my reviews and highlight my achievements. (This might be more helpful moving forward as opposed to retroactively, but I still recommend it.) I use onenote for my work projects so I’ve just created a tab for this, but it could just be a word doc too. It’s just a bulleted list that goes month by month, and as I do something even semi-noteworthy, I write it down on my list. It could be something as simple as “attended X training” or “given Y project” or “asked to start documenting Z procedure”, but over the course of a year it really adds up. I might not remember offhand staying late six months ago to help out in a pinch since it’s not particularly memorable, but I definitely want to highlight it at my year end, especially if I can pair it with emails from someone thanking me for my help. For emails I have a special tag to flag all emails complementing me as they happen so I can easily find and reference them later. I sometimes even include a link to the email in my bulleted note on the accomplishment list so a “thanks so much for your help on this” has some context.

      Again, apologies if this is more future helpful rather than past helpful. But to help you look at things in retrospect, I’d definitely list any trainings you did, any projects you worked on, and any nice emails you were sent.

      1. Therese*

        So last time I got a raise I had created a list of things I improved and I’m using that to kind of make this list.

        But I like the idea of a running list going forward. I actually go to a lot of training/free webinars/conferences on my own time/dime. So that is a good idea to keep a monthly list of everything.

  164. bmj*

    Boss is interfering with a project i am the lead on. boss has been with company less than 6 months. the project is something i’ve been successfully leading for 5 years and involved in longer than that, and i was put in that role by grandboss who i know thinks that i’ve done well with it. I’m very open to new boss’s perspective and input about the product itself and features, but he keeps getting in the middle of things he doesn’t know about – trying to impose his own process on it, emailing the vendor critiquing things before coming to me with questions, jumping in to schedule (or cancel) meetings without talking to me. I know what grandboss wants, and i know how to get there. i’m afraid we will not meet our deadline, and that boss will alienate our vendor if he keeps this up. how do i politely but firmly request that he back off of and let me actually handle my own project. (FWIW, i may report to him, but i know that grandboss intended us to focus on different things, and i work directly with GB much of the time. Boss glommed onto this particular project because he has strong opinions about it, and not a lot else to do right now.)

    1. foolofgrace*

      I don’t know, but I would feel out speaking with grandboss since you have a relationship there. I wouldn’t talk trash about the new manager, but I would convey my concerns about not meeting the deadline (always have The Good Of The Company as the concern), and have a few items in my head about manager that I could use as examples. This is a tricky position to be in. Good luck!

      1. bmj*

        Thanks! Boss and I just met so I brought up being very concerned about meeting the deadline, reiterating that it’s grandboss’s priority. And then I came out and said that I felt like there was confusion over who was leading the project. That I’d been doing it for a while and had thought I was still doing that, but that it seemed like he felt like he was now leading it. He seemed taken aback and said he hadn’t actually spoken to grandboss and that he’d have to think about it. Grandboss has been on vacation all week. I will probably mention to her next week, like, “here’s how I’ve been proceeding to move it forward, knowing your priorities. Do you have any issues with this?” and see if he talks to her on his own in the meantime. I think even more strongly now that he just decided since the project falls within his team, that he could decide to take over and make it “his” thing if he wanted to, without considering the implications.

  165. Anonomous Alpaca*

    Going anon for this one:
    So on the topic of “work biohazards I did not anticipate”, yesterday I was walking down the hallway at my office and slipped and flailed awkwardly in a patch of blood. Yes, human blood. Because apparently someone who was at my workplace for an “appointment” was bleeding for some reason and dripped a good sized patch of the red stuff on the floor and I was the lucky person who found it with my (thankfully shoe-encased) foot. I do not work in the medical field.
    Ugh ugh ugh.
    How does one safely clean the bottom of a shoe that was bled on?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Right after it happens you spray a small puddle of disinfectant (or bleach) on the floor and stand in it for awhile.

    2. foolofgrace*

      Swab it with a bleach-soaked wad of paper towels? And as my friend once told me, if you fall at work, don’t get up! Make sure management knows you’ve been injured at work, and I assume a fall counts.

      1. irene adler*

        Keep the shoe in contact for a few minutes with the bleach.
        Can use rubbing alcohol instead. But the shoe will have to be exposed to the alcohol for longer time than with bleach. Course, bleach can discolor the shoe.

        Wear disposable gloves and dispose of them and the wad of paper towels used to clean your shoe.

      2. Llama Face!*

        Luckily I didn’t actually fall in it! Just skidded and flailed madly. But I think I do have to make a report even so because of our occupational health & safety regulations.

  166. Bambi*

    Can I just…vent here for a moment?

    I don’t think one of my parents respects the job that I’m totally happy and statisfied in.

    Long story short, the disapproving parent (DP) gives mixed messages, depending on if we’re in public or private. In public, DP will go overboard and interject if I don’t give an adequet (?) description of my job (Me: “I’m ___ at a small nonprofit.” DP: “Well, actually, OP works at ___ that does XYZ.”). DP at this point seems to be trying to get the Ooh’s and Aw’s from people. DP has even shared my salary with people who have no business knowing my salary.

    In private, DP has expressed doubts of my org’s impact and even has suggested that what my org does is more of a “feel good” thing than having “real” impact…which is insulting to me because 1. My org fills in a very important gap in my field 2. I believe we do have a positive impact 3. This was THE job that made me realize what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

    Thanks for listening.

    1. littlelizard*

      That sounds really frustrating (and like a great reason not to share your salary in the future).

      1. Melissa*

        Yes, put the disapproving parent on an “information diet”, as CA would say. Don’t tell them if you get a raise, share just bland stuff about your job (Matilda’s plant died because she forgot to ask someone to water it while she was on vacation) and be vague if they ask pointed questions.

        1. Bambi*

          Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll definitely start putting DP on an information diet. There are some things I know I will never tell DP about my work but I will be more deliberate and more thoughtful about restricting information and being vague in my answers.

      2. Bambi*

        Sigh, I have definitely learned my lesson on the salary front. If DP asks about salary/raises/etc, I will have to muster up the energy to be direct.

    2. Emilitron*

      Agreed, it’s clearly time to cut way back on how much DP gets to know about your professional life.

      It’s okay to be upfront with them. I’d wait till after the conversation in question, say you’re driving home from public event, “DP, when we were talking with Jane, what made you decide to tell them ABC about my job?” (oh blah blah just thought they’d be interested) “Well obviously things like where I work aren’t private information, but when we’re talking about me, I like to be more involved in the conversation, I’d rather you didn’t just volunteer details.” You can stop there, or you can talk about the undertones – “It’s probably a change from when I was a kid and you got to tell people about how I’m on the (dance team/ honor roll/etc) at school, but now that I’m out of school (out of the house, etc) , I want to be able to interact with people as a fellow grown-up, not just as your kid. It’s nice that you’re proud of me, I like hearing you say things that show that you think I’m doing well, but sometimes it feels like you’re showing me off, and that can be awkward”

      Also, they mention salary, and you put on your OMG face “DP!! Jane, I can’t believe they told you that! DP, professionals don’t really go around sharing salary information, that’s kind of personal.”

      And if they’re slamming you in private, you can say things like “From what you were saying to Jane, I had the impression you thought very highly of XYZ org” if you’re feeling catty, and if less so “Huh, maybe it seems that way from the outside, but that’s not my experience with the organization/industry/community at all.”

      1. Bambi*

        Ooh, I’ll definitely be using these scripts. Thank you for sharing! Sigh, I haven’t heard anything in awhile, but you never know. I’ll be keeping these in my back pocket.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      OMG – why the heck are you sharing your salary (or anything else you do not want the public at large to know) with your parents who sound like they are over-sharers! Also I’m so sorry to hear that your parents are not supportive of your career. Sounds like you might want to go “gray rock” with them regarding your work. Sending you positive energy.

      1. Bambi*

        To be fair to me, I thought it was obvious that you don’t share other people’s salaries. But you’re right, I’ve previously withheld info (usually problems/issues/challenges I’m having) because DP had aired out my dirty laundry more than a few times.

        To be clear, my, er, approving parent (I don’t like the black and white diachotmy but whatever) definitely supports me and is also confounded by DP’s behaviour. So, I at least have one parent in my corner!

  167. HalloweenCat*

    What is the best way to convey to someone senior to you that you will not be using their grammatically incorrect and nonsensical revision suggestions? I’ve tried politely saying we didn’t make the change because we didn’t feel it was “consistent” with our other messaging when he asked why we didn’t make his changes. I tried reassuring him that my version was technically correct when he said he didn’t think it sounded right (and then said he didn’t have an English degree in the same breath.) At this point, I feel like I have to be straightforward and tell him we aren’t using it because it’s WRONG but I can’t think of a delicate way to do it.

    1. bmj*

      I’ve been in this position. This takes additional time and it’s annoying, but you could look up the grammar rules/AP style/Etc. and say “Given his concerns, you wanted to be sure of the guidelines on this, and you have found the following sources that confirm that it should be phrased/formatted such-and-such a way, so you’re going to move ahead with that.”

      1. foolofgrace*

        This. Be prepared in advance with the grammar etc. rules. And is there a style guide that your employer follows you could point to?

      2. HalloweenCat*

        Ordinarily, this is what I would do! The problem is, the suggestion he’s making is such an elementary school level mistake I don’t know how to explain it in a way that isn’t patronizing. He’s literally removing the articles from sentences.

        1. foolofgrace*

          Is he from another culture? For example, I’m pretty sure the Russian language doesn’t use articles like “the” and “a”.

          1. HalloweenCat*

            Nope, he’s a native English speaker. Unless you count the US east coast vs. midwest cultural difference…

            1. Bambi*

              It could also be a generational difference. The changes in grammar rules between my parents and me are astounding. For example, the ‘rents were taught to capitalize the seasons; I was not. There are even changes between Gen Z and me, like the legitimization of “lite”. If this is the case, you could say that you’re using the 2020 Purdue Owl manual as a guide.

    2. Youth*

      I would say, “I’m happy to discuss the changes with you,” and then , if he comes around to talk, pull up links to a grammar site that shows why your changes are correct. Walk him through it as if he were a student complaining that you incorrectly marked his answers wrong. That is to say, be patient and cordial, and speak in a sympathetic tone while you explain how tricky these darn grammar rules can be.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      For corrections that are factually incorrect, you can be straightforward and say “thanks for the suggestion but this would actually be grammatically incorrect so we’re leaving it as is”. For less black and white revisions, perhaps angle more towards a “this addition doesn’t support the message/point of the piece so we decided against it”. If he thinks it doesn’t sound right you can ask him to explain what he means and if he just reiterates that he thinks it doesn’t sound right just assure him that it is grammatically correct.

    5. Oh No She Di'int*

      I work in this field, so to me the way to tell someone that their correction is grammatically wrong is to tell them that their correction is grammatically wrong.

      When you say the person is “senior to you” I get the impression that this person is above you on the org chart, but maybe not directly in your chain of command? In any event, almost every grammatical or usage “rule” has some authority that can be cited: Webster’s, Oxford English Dictionary, Chicago Manual of Style, American Psychological Association, etc. Can you find such a citation and merely point it out as a matter of fact? “Oh actually, you know what? It turns out that according to Chicago Manual of Style, you’re supposed to put the period at the end of the sentence. Who knew?”

    6. HalloweenCat*

      I finally had to have a VP at my company send him an e-mail saying I was right and to leave it alone. So ultimately a very anticlimactic and unsatisfying ending to this saga! Thank you all for your comments!

      2. Tabby Baltimore*

        I realize this is over and done with, but the reference to losing all the articles caught my eye. So, if this happens again, you might want to consider (if you haven’t already) asking him why he seems to want to re-write the piece “in telegraphic style.” Maybe he had a reason for wanting to make the piece shorter, and doing it that way was what occurred to him first? If this happens again, please let us know how you handled it.

  168. not that Leia*

    Early last week, I recieved an offer for a new job from a firm I’m really excited about (more money! more responsibility! title bump! yay!). When I told my current boss, she LOST IT–as in truly yelled, including profanity. I was shocked–I’m in an industry and a situation where there’s a lot of personal connections, so I understand emotions, but I expected basic professionalism. Plus, given the personal connections involved, I’d specifically set up NewJob start date so that I could give CurrentJob 6 weeks notice (enough to wrap up a current project). Subsequently, my boss made a counteroffer that was basically, “don’t take the job at all. Or if you do, push start date out ANOTHER two months.” No additional salary, no monetary compensation. In order to de-escalate, I told her I’d consider it. But now I feel like I have to have the same painful conversation all over again. (I’d note that in the interim, my boss has been acting as if everything is all fine, so I suspect she thinks I may actually take her “offer”????) Any suggestions of scripts to use to make it clear that my decision is final? I don’t want to face a lot of questions about why and second-guessing of something that is clearly my choice.
    Some background–this whole job search came about because my boss let us know a few months ago that we might not have work. We’ve since gotten a new project, but basically, this process was put in motion by her suggestion.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      “I’ve considered your offer but I’ve decided against it. My final date will still be [date]. I’ll use my remaining time to wrap up my current project and make the transition as smooth as possible.”

      Remember, you don’t need to justify your decision. Don’t get into an argument or try and defend your decision to leave, just stick to the fact that you are leaving. You can always bump your end date up if your boss turns hostile/unreasonable.

      2. LilPinkSock*

        100% this. A few years ago I had a boss give me a similar terrible and inappropriate reaction to the announcement that I was taking another position–made more complicated by the fact that was an inter-organizational move! I just made the decision that I wasn’t going to entertain said boss’s shenanigans, and spoke with my new boss about an accelerated transition.

      3. CatCat*

        100% this.

        Also, you’re concerned about a lot of questions and second guessing. Any subsequent questioning of your decisions or trying to get you to stay longer, just wash, rinse, and repeat: “My decision is final and not up for further discussion.” And “That won’t be possible. My last day is X.”

    2. foolofgrace*

      That’s horrible. I don’t have an answer but I was worried when I read that you are giving 6 weeks’ notice; I’d be afraid the boss would Show Me The Door long before the six weeks.

      1. not that Leia*

        Thanks–that is a nice neutral script and I think I’ll just keep repeating that if the conversation goes off the rails.
        Foolofgrace–I considered the possibility that she’d just tell me to leave, and honestly, it wouldn’t be that bad. I’m 90% certain I could start at NewJob early, and even if not, we have enough savings to cover a month (which would let me recover from some…toxic aspects of the last few years.)

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          Alison has done some columns on this before. To do a fairly poor job paraphrasing, if your boss treats you inappropriately, you can be like, that’s not an appropriate or OK way to treat me and in order to work through my notice period I need to not be yelled or cursed at. If you can’t commit to that, we should start planning for me to leave earlier.

          You clearly already don’t have her as a good reference, so what do you have to lose by quitting earlier if needed?

    3. HalloweenCat*

      If you have an HR department, I would discreetly loop them in on how your initial attempt to give notice was received and ask if they can be there when you turn down her offer. If you don’t have an HR department, I would at least try to have a witness to your conversation regardless.

    5. CW*

      Just say no. And in all honesty I think you are being way too generous with giving 6 weeks’ notice, given your boss’s hissy fit reaction. Normally most people would give the usual 2 weeks’ notice. Also, you got another, better job; your situation won’t be your problem for much longer.

      So stand your ground: You’re leaving in 6 weeks and that’s that. You got nothing to lose. And judging by your boss’s reaction, do NOT put her down as a reference. She is likely going to badmouth you.

    6. not that Leia*

      Afternoon update: Thanks for all the scripts and encouragement. There was no yelling, but she ABSOLUTELY refused to accept my decision. I tried really hard to stay firm, but I definitely struggle with confrontation so I probably gave more explanation than I would have preferred. And even so, I don’t think it took….Some choice comments:
      “I don’t understand why you haven’t asked NewJob about pushing back the start date. Can’t you just ask?”
      “Why can’t you just give me ONE more month?”
      “You have some responsibility to this new project, can you do that for me?”
      “I’m not angry, I’m disappointed.”
      Note there was STILL no offer/mention of additional compensation for any added time. And also note–my boss is a firm owner, I am a mid-career professional. I really wanted to say “People leave, and firms deal with it”, but I just couldn’t quite be that confrontational.

      1. WellRed*

        So the thing is, she doesn’t actually have to accept your resignation. I mean, if she fired you, you don’t have the ability to refuse the firing. She also can’t physically block you from leaving.

      2. Friday afternoon fever*

        Repeat: “that’s not possible.” “That won’t be possible.” Continue this forever if needed. You can even sound apologetic. This frames it as not your decision, but not specifically anyone else’s either, just a fact.

      3. Blue Eagle*

        Sorry your boss is like that. Not sure if this will help but here is my idea. In your workspace, hang up a calendar that shows 6 weeks (might need to tape 2 pages together) and circle your last day. Then at the end of each day put an X over that day. At some point your boss will come into your workspace and see the calendar and the boss might finally comprehend that you are, in fact, leaving on the day that is circled. And if the boss says anything negative, your response should just be “I am required to report to the other job on the next day and it cannot be postponed.” Hopefully that works. Best of luck getting out of this job and at the new job!

      4. corporate engineering layoff woo*

        Make sure you’ve got your resignation and expected end date communicated in writing, preferably also cc’d to appropriate colleagues/HR. This sounds like someone who, over the course of 6 weeks, would try to sweep your resignation under the rug and hope you’ll be convinced to stay on (somehow). Best of luck finishing up and transitioning to NewJob!

  169. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

    I have an old curmudgeon vent. I’m just so tired of all of the different new ways to collaborate, project manage, share files and message people — I’ve just now been “invited” to join Microsoft Teams for one of my big projects; I already use Google Docs, Hightail, Sharepoint, TeamDynamix, Dropbox, shared network servers…I’ve lost track of how many I’m signed up for and what my passwords are. I’m old and tired of learning new apps that don’t really make my job any easier or more organized …in my day we emailed, and we…hated it!…but it worked…and I’m just going to put on my headphones with wires and listen to my 90s playlist on my ipod ’cause I’m sick of new technology and innovation damn it!

    1. LilPinkSock*

      I feel your pain. My company is working a Major Event, and when we first started organizing it, we had a lengthy meeting about our collaboration tools. Said meeting was about 3 weeks after I’d started at the company–which is a brand-new field and atmosphere for me! Phew, talk about overwhelmed and confused. I may be a chronological millennial, but I’ll be darned if I can explain to you how this stuff works!

    2. Vicky Austin*

      If you REALLY want to go all ‘90’s, then don’t use your iPod and instead make a mixtape on a cassette and play it on your Walkman!
      But in all seriousness, I’ve recently begun to accept that yearning for the “old days” does no good. Time doesn’t go backwards, it only goes forward; and so you have to keep moving forward with it. It’s not always easy, but it’s necessary. If you prefer the music of Pearl Jam and Alanis Morrisette to Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande or whoever’s popular these days; then by all means keep listening to your ‘90’s playlist. Just remember what Elsa said, “I’m never going back. The past is in the past!”

      1. foolofgrace*

        “or whoever’s popular these days” — it could have been *me* writing that! Too funny. Although with me I wouldn’t be able to tell you what the popular 90s music was, either. I think I was busy that decade.

    4. LKW*

      Same but… while Teams is not great in some things – it has a feature that my old-lady-eyes LOVES. When someone is presenting content, you can magnify on your side without asking the presenter to make it bigger.

      But yeah – I feel you.

    5. Tris Prior*

      My company has three different IM systems, so I’m getting pinged by 3 different things (their usage seems to vary by department) all the time. This is in addition to email. I feel your pain. Yuck!

  170. LilPinkSock*

    How do you write an unpleasant email to a colleague who is a superior but not *your* superior? Long story short, this colleague messed something up that I’ve spent several weeks trying to correct. The error would have been avoidable if they had followed some instructions I’d sent to them, but they didn’t and it’s at the point where the mistake might not be recoverable. They need to know what’s up, and the ramifications of what happened. Tone is going to be key in this email, so how would you all suggest approaching it?

    For what it’s worth, I have the go-ahead from my manager and this colleague’s manager, so I am not going over anyone’s head to do this.

    1. foolofgrace*

      “I am/was worried that the deadline will be missed (or whatever). Did you not receive my email (or whatever) with the instructions?” Act like it’s some email they missed. Then you can bring up the individual points that are wrong. They should get the message. Hopefully. I hope others have better advice.

      1. LilPinkSock*

        Alas, the mistake was related to a task my colleague has completed in the past, and we reviewed the instructions ahead of time, so I can’t pretend like it was an oopsies.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Colleague’s manager should send the email, not you. You should provide Manager2 (and yours) with all the facts and events that

      1. Rick Tq*

        Hit enter too soon. ‘facts and events that lead to the current situation. I can see you ghost-writing the history and current situation but their manager should have the final say about consequences like retraining, etc.

        1. LilPinkSock*

          I did the whole write-up of the incident, sent it to both managers, and their instructions were for me to send the email.

        1. Melissa*

          So both managers are refusing to manage? Instead of doing what should be their job- explaining the mistake to the colleague- they are pushing it off on you.

          1. SomethingCleverHere*

            I agree. This is bad management from them and LilPinkSock’s nastygram will probably come off as insubordinate and shows very immature thinking.

        2. irene adler*

          Personally, this sounds like they are shirking their jobs.
          Unless, are they going to do something after you send your email? Like talk to the colleague to make sure colleague understands the ramifications here?
          Will they support you should the colleague object to what you wrote? Or will you be left to twist in the wind?
          Here’s my take:
          Dear Colleague- I need you to be aware of an issue with [project] that was caused by not following instructions. [bad consequence] happened because instructions to do xxx as outlined in my email to you dated xx were not followed. This has me concerned that you did not receive my email of [date].

          I am now doing [action(s)] to remedy this. I am not sure if these actions will fully salvage us from [bad consequence].

          I have alerted [my boss] and [your boss] as to the situation. They are working with me to correct the [bad consequence] that resulted from not following instruction x.

          I need you to do [action] to help remedy this situation. And, when this event occurs again, please follow instructions [lay out the instructions you wrote in the original email].

          Thank you for your help in avoiding [bad consequence] with [project] down the line. I do not relish having to repeat [action(s)] again, which I’m sure you can understand.

    4. Fabulous*

      Keep the email factual and remove all emotion to the best of your ability. CC your and their managers.

      “I wanted to share a status update on XYZ. As you know, I have spent several weeks attempting to rectify the error made in ABC, which was your responsibility. I had provided you with step-by-step instructions in the hope that the task would be done error-free. At this point, the mistake might not be recoverable and these are the current ramifications:
      [bulleted list]
      I have spoken with both Jane and Wanda about the errors made on XYZ and we agree this cannot happen again, especially when fail-safes were provided to you. [Insert any actionable tasks you or they should take.] Please see Jane or Wanda with any questions you have on this.”

      2. LilPinkSock*

        Awesome. Thank you so much! The managers asked me to carry out this email, and I agreed to do so because I knew it would be an important learning moment in my fledgling EA career. I really appreciate this script.

        2. tangerineRose*

          Sounds good. Yeah, sticking to the facts exactly, and cc your manager. For something like this, I like to channel my inner Spock.

      3. Rick Tq*

        This is great until the last section. Any discussion of consequences or requiring change on his part HAS to come from his manager, not from you.

        If his manager won’t send the email it may be time to bring in the Grand-bosses involved…

        I see below you ended up doing this face-to-face, but his manager needs to send a followup email confirming the directions are from management, not from a subordinate.

        1. LilPinkSock*

          After speaking with management yesterday (mine and colleague’s), two follow-up emails will be written. One from me is simply, “Hey, here is the procedures document. It will be reviewed at the upcoming [major event] planning meeting with the whole team.” A second, sterner email will come from the managers and will not involve me at all.

          1. SomethingCleverHere*

            No, you should not be sending ANY follow-up emails or instructions or try to impose consequences on your superiors. I’m sorry, but again, your thought process seems very immature and in many professional environments this level of outright insubordination would get you fired.

    5. LKW*

      Try the “This is a follow up to recent request / actions/whatever. In investigating the problem, we found that you did not follow the instructions provided. Please see copy sent to you at beginning of this process dated January 10, 2020. (attach the initial email indicating instructions were sent). By not following processes the following error happened. This error will result in bloopity bloop being unrecoverable at a cost of $$. To avoid this in the future, please be sure to follow instructions. If you need further clarification or have questions, please do not hesitate to reach out.”

      In short – make it clear: We found a problem. We traced it back to you. You had the right information to do this correctly but you chose not to follow the instructions. Here is the result. Don’t do this again.

    6. LilPinkSock*

      All right folks, here’s the follow-up: I was agonizing over this because while it would be a simple face-to-face conversation of “Hey, here’s what happened, here’s the consequences, here’s how we make sure this doesn’t happen again, let’s talk through any question”, this is a remote colleague and so it had to be done over email. My manager did help me revise my initial email (which I wrote using some of your script ideas!)…and then we found out that my colleague will be in the office next week. So in the end, I get to have a quick and easy check-in conversation with them, and then send the procedures document as a follow-up. Thank you for the suggestions here, and props to my manager for coaching me through a potentially gnarly situation.

      1. SomethingCleverHere*

        I still say that your manager isn’t a good one to pawn off his job on an employee, plus scolding a senior level colleague is so inappropriate. I would reconsider your approach to this and decide if this blame-game nastygram from a junior employee is really the way you want to go. This may backfire on you if he decides to report you for insubordination.

        1. valentine*

          I would explain in chronological order: “We went over the instructions, but you missed section 3, part 5(b) and 7 through 9. What do you think happened there?” Hear his story before you lay out how much work it made for you. Ask him how he’ll ensure he follows all the steps next time. If he has no idea or turns it back on you, say you want him to think about it and get back to you by the end of the next day. Basically, see if he will really take responsibility.

          1. LilPinkSock*

            That’s a great idea. In general, I do prefer to listen first and try to learn what went wrong where. My response and plan of action can then be matched up.

  171. Misty*

    I posted on 1/24 about how I couldn’t decide if I should change my major, on 1/31 saying I would stick with social work, and on 2/14 saying that I was considering changing to english.

    Thank you to everyone who replied. It was extremely helpful to be able to think through my planning with you. I no longer feel guilty about leaving social work.

    I’m trying to focus on college as a more holistic experience as suggested. I joined the lgbtqa club on campus. I looked into the suggestions mentioned by everyone: the Career One-Stop, the US state labor department’s website, the website onet, the books ‘Do what you are’ and ‘What color is your parachute,’ and I did my Meyers Briggs test. I got INFJ-A. This past week, I met with the finance major department, the english department, the geography department, the public administration major department, the psychology department, and the career center. I decided to major in geography with a minor in professional writing. I will get to learn GIS and do two internships, one in geography and one in english.

    Thanks to everyone for your help!

    1. LilPinkSock*

      I love this so much! I wish I had been just half as thoughtful as you when I was a younger LilPinkSock exploring my career and educational options! I’m thrilled for ya.

    3. Emma*

      Congrats on figuring out a path! I have several friends who work with GIS (one teaching, 2 in govt work) and it seems really fascinating.

    4. CheeryO*

      This is so awesome! I freaking love GIS. I think that’s going to be a great combination of skills to have, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your college experience.

    5. MissBliss*

      GIS is great, and very interesting, work! I was once the only person working in a GIS lab who wasn’t doing GIS work (I was a web designer). I was always fascinated to hear what projects my colleagues were working on. Best of luck to you!

      1. Misty*

        I will :) I really appreciated everyone’s help last weekend! I was so surprised that so many people commented!

        I am happy with my decision and excited about next semester and this summer. I’m going to be taking two summer classes in geography. I also have a job lined up for the summer so it’s nice to feel like the summer is all set up.

        The only bad thing that has been happening is I realized that I’m becoming extremely depressed. Last week when I posted that my social work classes were depressing yet not triggering – I actually thought that was true. However I realized this past week that it’s both. I’ve been spending a lot of my free time crying, I’m having a hard time concentrating, I feel over stimulated after class, and I feel really bummed out even when not in class. I’ve already completed five weeks of the semester and there’s only ten weeks left (not counting spring break week) so at least I’m 1/3rd of the way through. I can’t drop any classes because my grants/scholarships need me to be full time in order to use them. The good thing is I am taking one gen ed class and basically that class is the only one I look forward to because I know won’t be depressed after. I also really like that professor.

        At least it has an end date though! I def couldn’t have done two more years of sw classes.

  172. Wanna Be Priva See*

    Dealt with a pregnancy scare, a government attorney interview, and a cat with poopy paw.

    The interview was very canned (as in, name a time when….type questions). The preg scare was because if I hopped to this gov job I’d be ineligible for FMLA (maybe not even for the 12 weeks maternity leave?) and I just started studying for a certification exam for this July. Also, after buying a house, I have some money left over, but not nearly enough to afford hefty costs of daycare in the area I live.

    The interviewers seemed to like me, and here’s to hoping for some good news in a couple weeks…..

  173. Gaia*

    I am forever exhausted with the brother of a friend of mine and need to vent.

    He works in organizations that help people with housing insecurity find housing options. Last May he took a job with his local county. He was outraged that he didn’t get the top of the salary range. I explained that in government jobs there are “steps” and hiring someone with 5 years of experience was never going to get him brought in at step 10. Then he was outraged that he had to contribute a certain percent to his retirement account. I explained that in his state, this is a legal requirement and something that was listed in the job description. In September he quit that job with no notice when he was offered a new job.

    At his new job (which is identical to the last but at a non-profit) he is mad that he is upset that he makes less than everyone else even though everyone else has 15+ years of experience and he has 5. He takes 2 1/2 hour lunches each day.

    Yesterday he told me he is interviewing with a new company for the same job. I asked why he is doing that since he seems to not like the work and he said he plans to go into the interview and tell them he won’t do tasks A, B, C, or D and he only wants to do tasks X, and Y. But the job specifically is for tasks A – D and there is a whole other job that handles X and Y. He thinks they will be “so impressed” that they’ll just hire him and let him do whatever he wants.

    I just….what even goes on in the mind of someone that thinks that this is reasonable behavior? I can’t. I just..can’t.

    1. Aphrodite*

      It’s not explainable but it certainly makes for an entertaining story. Please post updates when you can; I find this funny.

      1. LKW*

        Agree wholeheartedly. Please post a follow up. I would love if someone with 5 years experience came in and told me that they wanted my 20+ year salary plus they weren’t willing to do 80% of the job. That would be fun.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Humans! They are sometimes stupid and weird. (And yes, for all of our amusement and edification, please! Post updates!)

    5. Bambi*

      Sorry, this sounds super frustraiting. If it helps, I can’t even, too. As everyone else says, it might be better to avoid talking about job stuff with this person, or if that’s not possible, noncommital responses maybe the way to go.

  174. Vicky Austin*

    Yesterday’s question about sick time got me thinking about calling in sick in general. I found myself pondering the age-old question: should you stay home with a bad cold or should you go in and “power through?”
    I Googled the question and I found that the answers varied from, “If you even have to ask yourself ‘Am I too sick to work?’ then you are,” to “Toughen the F up and tell yourself that you can power through, and you will be able to power through!”
    Now here’s the thing: I have tried many, many times over the years to “toughen the F up and tell myself I can power through,” yet I have found that it’s just not something that I am capable of doing. For one thing, I can’t take DayQuil or similar OTC meds because I am on Ritalin for my ADHD. Going to work without my Ritalin is not an option, as everyone who’s ever seen me try to function without it can assure you!
    So, whenever I get a cold, I feel too sick to work effectively, and I always have to stay home. However, some people believe that learning how to “toughen the F up and power through” is a skill that every working adult ought to have. They swear it works for them every time, and they insist that if I just “tried harder,” it would work for me, too. “Mind over matter,” they say, yet despite my trying multiple times over the years, it has never worked. I always wound up either being sent home, voluntarily chose to leave early, or, in one case, was fired for being unable to do my job because I was so sick.
    So, my question is, how exactly do I LEARN to “toughen the F up and power through?” Is it a skill that I can learn, like playing an instrument? Or is it a gift that some people have, but I don’t? Is it because I have ADHD and am therefore unable to tune out unwanted stimuli? Or am I just a wuss? If I am just a wuss, how do get over it? And please don’t say, “if you tell yourself you can do it, then you can do it,” because like I said, I’ve tried it and it doesn’t work for me. Or should I just accept that it’s something I can’t control and stop beating myself up for it?

    1. Annony*

      Honestly, it’s BS. Mind over matter does not always work. I used to try to do that and that’s how I ended up in the hospital. Your body is sending you a signal that you are not ok and need to rest. Listen to it unless you absolutely can’t. If you need to power though, do it for a SHORT time and then rest.

      People are different. Some people are able to shrug off a cold and power through. I faint if I try that. Your body obviously can’t handle it either.

      1. Melissa*

        Hard agree. I used to try to “power through” when I was sick and ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. If you can’t take OTC meds to help (due to your prescription meds), it’s hard to get through the day.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Yeah, I used to power through and think I was a wuss for being sick. The thing that cured me of that nonsense was when my throat hurt so bad I couldn’t swallow anything but icewater for 3 days.

          I finally went to the urgent care and basically mouthed my description because I couldn’t speak. The doc nodded dismissively and got out his light. Body language was like, “Yeah, right, come on let’s get it over with.”

          Then he looked down my throat and blurted out, “Oh, SHIT!” Really loud.

          He turned pale and prescribed me alllllll of the drugs, and kept muttering “sorry.”

          I am not a wuss. I deserve to take care of myself when I’m sick.

          1. Parenthetically*

            ” I deserve to take care of myself when I’m sick.”

            YES. JAYSUS. There just freaking are not any medals for being THAT person who refuses to take a break and listen to their body and REST, and in fact there are lots and lots of BAD THINGS that can happen on lots of levels when we fail to care for ourselves properly.

            We are FINITE. We have LIMITS. We need to freaking ACT LIKE IT.

            /rant

      2. Vicky Austin*

        “If you need to power through, do it for a SHORT time and then rest.”

        I’ve actually done that before. I went into work for a few hours and then went home because I wasn’t feeling well. At least that way my boss was able to see that I really was sick and not faking it.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Who are these people telling you to toughen up? Because they sounds like a bunch of jerks. I think you’re doing just fine. If you’re coming in in a state that results in you either being sent home, having to leave midday, or getting fired(?!?!?) for being too sick, then you sound like you’re being tough enough, and in fact are being too tough. It’s one thing to be “tough” enough to force yourself to go into work when it’s raining out and you just don’t feel like it, it’s another thing entirely when you’re actually sick and have the resources to stay home.

      These people sound like they’d be the kind of people who see a chance to improve something for others and instead say “well I had to suffer, so everyone else should too”.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Oh quick side question, how often is this happening? If you only get a handful of colds a year and need to take a day or two relatively infrequently then yea, eff the noise of anyone complaining. But if it’s happening every few weeks and you’re leaving people in a lurch regularly (and they’re the ones complaining), then that’s something else. It doesn’t change my advice since it’s not your fault that you get extremely sick very frequently, it just might require a talk with your boss to get accommodations/figure out how to account for this in workflow/coverage. It would still have nothing to do with “toughening up”.

        1. Vicky Austin*

          It depends. I have made it through an entire year without being sick once, and then there’s been other years where I’ve been sick more than I’m well.
          I am currently not working. I was recently hired to a job, but it won’t start until April.

      2. Vicky Austin*

        Also, I wasn’t fired for being sick. I was fired for being unable to work effectively. So I guess, for not recognizing that I should have gone home?

    3. SarahTheEntwife*

      Stop beating yourself up! Honestly, with a lot of really unpleasant practice you *might* be able to fake it eventually, but you’re probably still not going to be performing well. I strongly suspect that a lot of the “toughen the F up” people are also doing terrible work while they drag themselves into work for the sake of being macho. Some people really can compartmentalize well enough that they can power through anything, or can get by on adrenaline when it’s actually an Emergency, but most people should just stay home when they’re sick (and employers should LET them and pay them).

    4. Ali G*

      You don’t need to learn it. It’s not a skill, it’s just people justifying their own existence to you.
      As an aside, the conversation yesterday reminded me why I hate most of the cold and flu medicine commercials. They’re all like “take these pills and go on like you aren’t sick!”
      NO
      You are supposed to take the pills to alleviate your symptoms so you can rest and get better! Not go on a date, play with your kids, got to work, climb a mountain whatever.
      It’s OK to be sick and admit you just can’t!
      Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant…

      1. Vicky Austin*

        Some people do have the ability to tough it out, though. Case in point: Bernie had a heart attack and then went back to his campaign the next day and shows no signs of slowing down. Heck, all the candidates continue campaigning even when they are sick.

        1. Parenthetically*

          And it’s terrible for their long-term health, their family life, their overall well-being…

        2. RagingADHD*

          And some people have heart attacks, return to work too soon because they “feel fine” or they’re “not going to let it beat them”, and drop dead. Happens all the time.

          One of my favorite bosses had deep-vein thrombosis and was on blood thinners for a year. He decided to stop being “a wuss” and quit the meds because he hated the dietary restrictions and he “felt fine.”

          Then he got a bad cough that sounded like pneumonia, but he powered through because it was “just a cold,” he wasn’t going to be a wuss. Finally it got so bad that he went to the doc in a box, told them nothing of his history, got dx with bronchitis.

          The next day he was hospitalized & they found multiple blood clots in his lungs. Total bedrest. Confiscated his cell & laptop because he wouldn’t stop working.

          Nope. He kept sneaking out of bed to take conference calls on the payphone in the hall.

          By day 3 he was dead.

          Age 42. Wife & 2 little kids bereft. Because he just had to “power through” and prove he wasn’t a wuss. Super nice guy. Sorely missed. But the hard truth is, he killed himself with terminal stupidity.

          And yet neither he nor Bernie have anything to do with a) how you function when you personally are sick, or b) whether it is okay to make your coworkers sick if you have the sick time available. (it isn’t).

    5. Rexasaurus Tea*

      Do NOT beat yourself up for knowing your own health. As you yourself put it: “whenever I get a cold, I feel too sick to work effectively, and I always have to stay home.” Staying home will provide you the opportunity you need to recover your effectiveness.

      Those other people don’t live in your body. They don’t get to tell you what to do with it.

    6. RagingADHD*

      You are not a wuss.

      The nature of ADHD is that “trying harder” always backfires. The harder you “try,” the worse it gets because “trying” diverts you from the helpful parts of the brain and ramps up the unhelpful parts. Similar to yelling at a person in a panic attack to “Calm down!”

      There is no moral superiority to going to work sick, and people who claim so are full of hooey. Do what makes you the most effective in the big picture.

      It’s about results, not whether you’re doing it “right” by the standards of random people spouting their opinions about toughness.

      I have met my share of boo-yah “toughen up” types in my life and quite honestly if they spent a single day inside my brain or body, they would be broken and crying on the floor by lunchtime.

      1. Vicky Austin*

        Yes, what you say about ADHD is so true! And keep in mind, I was told throughout my childhood and adolescence by well-meaning professionals, “There’s nothing your peers can do that you can’t. It might take you a little longer than them to learn how to do some things, but if you try hard enough, you can do anything they can.”
        So, naturally, I internalized that to mean that whenever I was incapable of doing something, it was because I wasn’t trying hard enough, even though that wasn’t the case.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Well, we can **accomplish** any results that we need/want to.
          But we can’t get there by doing things the way neurotypicals do.

          And one thing we are particularly not “good” at, is motivating ourselves to conform to pointless nonsense like winning the prize for “person who can suck it up and work through illness the most.”

          Because there is no prize, and you know it. That’s why you can’t do it. When you try, your inner truth calls bullshit on you.

    7. NewReadingGlasses*

      The only reason to “power though” is if there is a real emergency. Something like fleeing an active volcano. Most work items do not qualify.

    8. Fikly*

      It’s not a skill. You can’t change how your body works. Some people get sicker than other people, and some people’s brains function better when ill than other people’s.

      Not all bodies are the same.

      It’s like the people who insist that everyone can not be depressed if they just think happy thoughts, because that’s what they did. I’m not going to debate whether or not they were clinically depressed, but I sure will debate the idea that thinking happy thoughts is a universal solution.

    9. Alexandra Lynch*

      I say it depends on the job.
      First husband was a trucker. There are things that you can handle if you work in an office by not doing too much complicated stuff that day, taking meds, and being close to the bathroom. If you’re guiding 80,000 pounds at 70 miles an hour in heavy traffic, not so much.

      Fiance is an office worker. He can WFH sometimes, and sometimes he uses that when he isn’t 100% but wants to try. But he can go into work unwell without it being dangerous.

      This, of course, doesn’t consider infectious diseases, which add another wrinkle to things. Personally I would prefer that people with infectious diseases should self-isolate instead of going out and sneezing on everyone.

  175. I guess this goes here*

    I submitted a quick and easy response to a prompt in a tiny, special-interest zine. Non-paid, just for funsies. Got my butt handed back to me in an email full of completely ridiculous nonsense. Basically, all the negatives I’ve ever heard about small businesses combined with a lot of field-specific rhetoric (think small nonprofit)… over less than 500 words! I believe in the mission, but the whole thing left a bad taste in my throat…

  176. Bunny Girl*

    I just need to rant quick. I do most of the food organizing and ordering for our department. I also set and clean up said food. I don’t mind picking up and all that, but our grad students legit eat like they’ve never set at a table before. It’s disgusting! To me there is a line between typical “picking up after a business lunch” and what is happening in our department. I’ve seen wild animals eat more neatly than these people. I just don’t understand.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I think it’s more, they know they’re not at home and that there’s someone here to clean up after them, so why bother using basic manners?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ding ding ding. They’re frigging barbarians who don’t understand that this isn’t a restaurant, it’s a place of business who’s offering catering not a full service dining experience. Ew.

          1. Bunny Girl*

            If it was just plates and napkins left around I’d be more Eh, even though there is a garbage can like right there. But it looks like these little s**** are recreating Lord of the Flies in there and/or eating with their feet. I’ve actually stopped ordering certain items because they tend to be more messy with them than others. I’m picturing two of them fighting over the breadsticks on the table top with their teeth.

    2. LilPinkSock*

      Are you me?! My office gets so gross after food is brought in. I’m embarrassed for this group of adults, and it makes me wonder how icky their kitchens are.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you spoken to your boss about their behavior?

      We’d tear someone into pieces if they were pigs. We request everyone clean up after themselves. Then someone can do a sweep of the area for crumbs, you know? They need to be held accountable but I understand you may not be in the place to do that, so I suggest speaking to someone about it.

      How long does it take you to clean up? I’d go in with “It takes me 30 minutes to clean up after these filthy animals because they can’t be bothered to put their trash in the designated cans.”

      And make sure it’s easy access to trash of course but yeah. I’d start bringing in bibs and telling people that if they’re going to act like children, I’m going to go the extra mile. But again…I’d like them to try. The next option is seriously not bringing in food. This isn’t a farm!

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Our department head has made it painfully clear that in the ladder of our department, that the grad students definitely outrank the support staff and we’re just expected to put up with their behavior. Yes my work place is very toxic.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Gross. Because when I heard “Grad student” I was like “how do you not outrank that person.” but I get it. Your department head is a POS and I’ll say it again and again. Yuck.

          1. Bunny Girl*

            Yep. The struggle is real. I’m counting down the days until I graduate and can bounce. Until then I just get to laugh about it over several glasses of wine.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Oh thank God, you’re only there while you’re getting through school.

              They’re lucky that you put up with it. Lots of others wouldn’t and they’d have a turnstile for that position. I know I’d flip a table over on someone while I walked out the door in my younger years and I used to do a lot of absurd things for a paycheck as an EA, lol.

              1. Bunny Girl*

                Hahaha yeah. While the department is pretty toxic, there are some perks that are just too good to give up. It’s close to home, it’s slow enough that I have time to do my homework (with my direct supervisors approval), and it pays well for the area and the position. And since I know everyone here is bat sh** crazy, I don’t think it’s messing with my professional norms and expectations.

        2. tangerineRose*

          And sadly, the department head isn’t doing the grad students any favors in the long run. They should have learned to clean up after themselves by now. Sorry you’re having to deal with this.

    4. Jedi Squirrel*

      Is there an advisor that can provide them some guidance? Like irene said below, they think they are at home. If they’re going out in the work world soon, they need to know how to eat at a table and not at a trough. It’s a sensitive topic, but in their long-term best interests.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I’ve talked to the graduate coordinator. Unfortunately, most of the faculty in our department have a very elitist attitude and pass it on to the graduate students. It’s very “do whatever you want because someone else will fix it.” And it’s traveled all the way down to table manners.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Sounds like the faculty is training the grad students to be toxic co-workers. But you already knew that.

    5. OyHiOh*

      Is there adequate time for the grad students to properly sit down and eat lunch or are they scrambling to fit lunch/speaker event in between TA assignments and their own classes/research? Are there enough seats to accomodate the entire department, should every single person invited show up? It could be as simple as a situation where, for whatever reason your department is attracting people who have never had opportunity or perceived need to learn nice (WASP-ish) table manners. It might be appropriate to suggest a “norms for business/academic lunches” event once or twice a semester.

      Beyond that, making sure there’s enough seating so nobody feels hurried and scheduling so that grad students feel they have adequate time to enjoy the lunch and presentation should make a considerable difference.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yes to all that. Most of the lunches we do are for the graduate students to meet with our seminar speaker, so the whole hour is scheduled for them to have lunch and talk. I’m actually mortified that they’re eating like that in front of guests. They’re seated in a large conference room so everyone has plenty of room. From my experience a lot of these kids are just kind of brats. Besides eating like it’s their last meal, they often complain about the (free) food and yet run off with most of it afterwards. Just ended up with a group of twits unfortunately.

        1. Close Bracket*

          Holy cats. Can you pitch a “business lunch skills” seminar to your boss under the guise of improving grad student marketability and maintaining your department’s reputation?

          1. Bunny Girl*

            I’ve brought it up several times. Unfortunately our department doesn’t seem to think “soft skills” are important. I think it’s why most of our graduate students end up just never leaving our department. I genuinely feel bad for these kids because they aren’t being prepared for anything outside in the real world. The hand holding is unreal.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              At the same time, if you can’t learn soft skills somewhat on your own, you are set up for failure. They don’t want to learn. Most people are more self aware than that, this is just a “product of their environment” kind of thing in the end. They don’t want to do better, they don’t need to do better.

    6. Bambi*

      What the actual heck? Post-secondary students, in general, are a bit of an oddball group, including hoarding free food (I did this but made sure that it was at the end of an event as opposed to taking up all the good food before others had a chance to grab some). But what you’re describing and elaborated on is just beyond anything I’ve ever heard. The last-ditch effort would be to say, “Don’t you think that our students behave this way in front of guests? Won’t this leave a bad impression?” or suggest cotillion (“It’ll raise the employability of our students by they aren’t being gross!”) since everyone seems to be so pretentious to begin with (I as this as a person who did a year of cotillion and enjoyed it–just not enough to continue it).

  177. Fabulous*

    !!! Rant warning !!!

    While I love editing, sometimes I hate that I’m good at grammar and concise writing. It makes working with new people a TASK. I’ve been heavily annoyed by a new coworker the past two days because her writing style is atrocious! So much passivity and long-winded phrasing, not to mention the heavy jargon use!

    I have to take her twenty 200-word, run-on paragraphs and transform them into something legible. And she didn’t understand why I needed to do that. Um, because I can’t get through reading a one of your sentences without cringing? Our company has writing standards and you need a 101 course.

    I am literally (figuratively) dying over here… :/

    1. irene adler*

      Yep! I have to work with a whole SOP for operating a new piece of equipment that was written in the passive tense. With page after page of Warnings! Argh!

      I often wonder how these folks give driving directions. Cuz that’s the last place one needs passive, long-winded sentences!

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Why do you need to do this? Is it your job to fix your coworkers’ writing? Unless it’s your specific job to transform their work, I’d honestly just give an overview of edits to make and let her make them herself. You can make the small ones if/when it’s functionally fine, otherwise tell her to at least plug it into the Hemingway editor (hemingwayapp [dot] com) and adjust accordingly before sending it back to you.

      1. Fabulous*

        It’s part of my job as a designer to ensure the writing is on par with company standards. If I sent everything back that was sub par, I’d literally never get anything accomplished. The document she submitted is not functional in the slightest.

        I’ll have to check out that Hemingway editor though, I’ve never heard of it!

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Makes sense! And yea 100% check out hemingway! It’s fantastic for judging passive tone, clarity, and run-on sentences – I had a boss that made us run our writing through it first before submitting things for review with them. It’s not a substitute for talented human eyes, but it’s a great first reviewer, especially if your coworker’s writing is such a hot mess. It’s also harder to argue with a computer program telling you your writing is a problem and exactly why. ;-)

        2. Environmental Compliance*

          I had no idea it existed and now it lives in my bookmarks bar! Definitely sending it to my coworker too when I get asked yet again for edits!

    3. Alianora*

      Just venting: My new coworker is mostly ok, but his writing is really stiff and formal AND he loves his comma splices. The combination is bugging me a lot more than either individual thing would.

      Other thing is he asks me to check over what he’s writing sometimes to make sure the content is correct, but I don’t feel like it’s my place to criticize his grammar or style.

      1. Fabulous*

        OMG comma splices! So so frequent… I’ve taken to occasionally sending out grammar lessons to my team to help mitigate the errors, LOL.

    4. Environmental Compliance*

      I am not an editor, but am often asked to proofread or light edit a document for my coworkers/boss. 95% of the time, I do not mind.

      I am so, so sick though of one coworker’s documents because they manage to both over-use and under-use commas and periods as well as randomly capitalizing/not capitalizing words.

      Bud, I am not an editor. It is not my job. I am happy to look over something if you’re sending it to Corporate and you want more eyes, but I cannot be editing everything you do.

      I think I irritated them earlier after they came to ask me about some random document they sent to other person and cc’d me on (for no apparent reason) because apparently I was supposed to “work my magic” but I of course didn’t because I had other things to do, like my actual job.

    5. Bambi*

      Can you return the writing with markups? It’s a bit of a chore but might be worthwhile as a way to “teach” newbie how to write better.

  178. Lowly staff accountant*

    Good afternoon all! First time commenting on this site but I read it every day! I’m wondering if there is some sort of learning process or education available for reconciling a corporate bank statement. I’m a staff accountant at a non-profit and we’ve always done the process a certain way, but due to changes being made it’s becoming super cumbersome the way we’ve been doing it and I wonder if there is a better way. However, I’m not sure how to look for the better way. Any thoughts or ideas? Thanks in advance!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Reconciling is always going to be cumbersome given it’s nature but the key is to find ways that will make your specific process easier. Ours is all imported from the bank, which helps a lot instead of the past processes I’ve done by keying in everything manually. Do you import your data or key manually? Is there a way to sort your data in your software? I watched someone painfully hunt down entries time and time again…because they didn’t know you can sort by check-number. Which will then separate out your ACH/Wire transfers from your checks.

      I don’t know that there’s any education available for this. I’ve seen so many folks struggle over the years despite varying degrees of education! It’s going to really depend on your software in the end!!

      1. Lowly staff accountant*

        Hi Becky! I basically run reports of say, deposits by location or credit card type then print them out and then manually check them off the actual bank statement. We have so many transactions coming thru that TBH this way makes sense and doesn’t take me very long. However, as we get new software and these reports become unavailable, I’m not sure how to make sure we verify that what is being deposited is on our books at all. And even if I make sure that it all is on our books, it never reconciles to Zero anyway.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Holy shit, you’re doing it by hand. My head just exploded.

          The reports most likely do exist though, it may be a matter of finding how to make customized reports for what you’re looking for!

          Do you then close a month so that you can’t accidentally post to that month to avoid glitches and what was previously reconciled becomes “undone” because it’s done by hand? Our systems burp up so much, this gives me anxiety that it’s not all done through your software!

          1. Lowly staff accountant*

            Yup! All manual/by hand…..I’m pretty quick at it tho because I’ve been doing it this way for a while….I do one excel sheet for each month and create a new one for the next month. I carry exceptions until something has been done with them, say a Journal Entry or it’s been cash receipted or an AP entry has been made and each exception has a note as to what has been done with it and what month.

            The other issue is that the darn thing never nets to zero which is mind-boggling in and of itself.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              The way those books could be cooked are screaming in my mind.

              Most likely it never nets zero because of an error many years back in the records, that’s usually the culprit for when I’ve had to investigate things people before me just let settle over the years.

              1. Lowly staff accountant*

                I used to “write off” the difference at the end of the year, that way we would be starting fresh in January but wasn’t able to do so in December 2018. The net/difference in August 2019 was less than $1,000.00 but it jumps back up in September 2019 for some reason. Sigh!

        2. Dancing Otter*

          Dear Lord, you poor soul! By hand?! On paper?!

          There are sophisticated reconciliation systems available, but this is a very basic spreadsheet approach that I’ve used since the early 1990s.

          Whatever system you are using to run the transaction report should be able to export to spreadsheet, or comma-delimited format at worst. Do that first.

          The bank ought to be able to provide their transaction listing electronically. Again, this would ideally be in spreadsheet format, but comma-delimited is still better than paper.

          Bring those two exports into a single spreadsheet, and bring in the outstanding items from the previous reconciliation.

          Next, sort both lists by the same criteria. Maybe you would choose check number; maybe amount would be more useful if there are a lot of non-check transactions.

          Then, take one of the lists, and use a LOOKUP function to see if there’s a match in the other list. (Be sure to specify exact matches only.) You might want to use a two-field match if the same amounts come up often. Do the same thing the other direction on the other list.

          Now you can filter for the matched entries, which should have the same count and total on each list. If not, there are probably duplicates being double-matched. You’ll still need to review the matched transactions for false matches, but this is still faster than doing it all by hand. (SMH) Note, if you match by check number, but a check cleared for a different about than your records indicate, that will throw the recon out, too.

          Once you’re sure all the automated matches are valid, switch your filters to show only the unmatched transactions. These are the ones you actually need to investigate. The easy ones are just unprocessed (deposits in transit or checks not cleared yet). Bank transactions that aren’t on your corporate records are more concerning.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      RE: Software. Do you use standardized ware like Quickbooks or do you use one that’s been built for you?

      I say this because most software, specifically QB have classes that are a huge help for finding tricks. Whereas if it’s built and you have IT, you can talk to them about what you see will benefit you better.

      I have both…so I’m constantly requesting updates to our built system to speed things along. since you’re NP, I can’t imagine this is your setup but you never know. I assume it’s using software that’s pre-fab and therefore I strongly suggest you go to a class on that specific one. Or they may have webinars if you learn well through that process!

      The shitty thing is that every software is built just different enough that you have to dig into it and even the frigging new releases of the same old shit requires you to re-learn *growl*

      Sometimes it’s a matter of knowing that software inside and out, fancy things are built in to make things easier but they aren’t always right at the top with a big arrow saying “Try this, I will make your life easier, gurl.”

      1. Lowly staff accountant*

        The process is actually all manual and the recon for each bank statement is an Excel spreadsheet. Very old school!

    3. De Minimis*

      I know what you mean, I too am a non-profit accountant and I have a tough time with bank reconciliations. We actually do have everything running through software [Abila MIP, which I very much dislike.] But I have a similar issue with stuff never really balancing properly. I’ve yet to have a “clean” bank reconciliation [think a lot of stuff was done incorrectly prior to my arrival and it’s just never been unwound] and am about to turn what I have in to our auditors…..not looking forward to that.

      1. Lowly staff accountant*

        I hear you there! I give the auditors things and explain it all to them and just watch their eyes glaze over!

    4. Koala dreams*

      You can see if the software company for your accounting / reconciling software have any courses or instruction pages. I go hunting for the instructions all the time, especially if it’s something that only comes up a few times a year. Sometimes they also have a forum where you can ask other users for tips and ideas. If it’s a software update that makes it complicated, you can call the help desk for the software company too. I usually have to call the help desk after a major update, because there are always some functions that have gone hiding in some unlikely places.

      1. Koala dreams*

        To be honest, I’m not doing things in Excel that often, so I’m not sure about there being classes for reconciliations in Excel specifically. You’ll have to look yourself. If you do have an accounting software for the bookkeeping (I hope you do!), it’s worth checking if it has any built-in functions related to reconciliations too.

  179. Beth Anne*

    I finally figured out the new W4 form after watching a Youtube Video and going through the questionnaire online. Even though it’s not required for everyone to use the new form I updated my husband and I’s W4’s as we ended up owing a lot of money in taxes this year. I have side jobs I do and this year I’m going to send payments in each quarter as well.

    1. Enough*

      Yes to estimated. Under the new W-4 they actually take out less money than before. I ran the numbers for my daughter because she was switching jobs. Told her to have a few extra bucks taken out to make sure she’s covered. The calculations based on the new W-4 seem to be meant to get you as close as possible to the exact amount you would owe on your job income.

  180. KR*

    Took a sick day because my life is practically imploding.

    First, I had a whole post typed about how taking sick days is always weird and guilt-inducing for me. Then my computer blue-screened. And now it won’t boot. One of the reasons I took a sick day is because I absolutely have to do online school work today and if I work I know I’ll be too burnt out and tired to do it tonight. My schoolwork is all web-based and I can do it from my husband’s computer if I need to but the important video files I need for a work side project are not backed up so I’m doing everything I can do get my laptop to boot at least once so I can get those files off it. I come from a former IT background so I know I can fix this and reset the whole darn thing if only I can get the files. Worst case scenario I have to rip the whole computer apart to get the hard drive. I’m also so upset because I spent good money on this laptop and according to the specs it should work fine for light video editing, school work (browser based and MS office), and Spotify streaming which is all I use it for and it has been nothing but trouble and slowness since I got it. I should have returned them but they’re well past warranty.

    This stress far exceeds my stress about calling out – most of my employer is based in time zones that wake up earlier than me (I’m in Pacific) and I start work about a half hour later than my team (approved by management) so whenever I call out it feels like I’m calling out in the middle of the morning when everything is at its busiest. And if I call out I need to text both managers I report to, text my coworkers who need to cover me, enter it in our timekeeping software if it’s a day timesheets are due which takes at least 15 mins, set up an away message, foreward on anything urgent that rolled in at 5am before I was even awake, and then relax and get well. I have this mindset left over from working retail that if you’re going to call out you need to call out at least two to three hours before your shift or the day before. That’s just not practical here especially since if I’m feeling sick, I’m very likely to sleep in that morning and pretty much get out of bed and go straight to my laptop, or I’ll realize as I’m getting ready or as soon as I get to work that today isn’t working and I feel sick. So I always feel like I’m calling in last minute but it’s really a time zone issue. There’s also the problem that I’m never really caught up on my work due to the nature of my job, so I always feel bad about calling in because I feel like I don’t deserve to unless I’m caught up.

    Ugh I’m having a bad day, I’m frustrated that calling out sick is almost always more stressful for me than just working sick, and my computer still won’t boot and has apparently lost the ability to see the OS. Horrible day.

    1. KR*

      And my Sims. My Sims are on this laptop and if I lose their files I’m going to be incredibly sad. They are good, honest families and don’t deserve that death.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        i hope your day got better and you were able to get your files and laptop fixed and that you were able to save your sims (who are still important)! :(

        i bought the sims 4 last night, after not playing in several years (but was addicted several years ago and the old game wouldn’t work on my laptop) and i am SO excited to be able to play again.

    2. Vicky Austin*

      I know what you mean about feeling guilty about calling in sick (see my post above). Hope you feel better soon.

  181. Chronic Overthinker*

    Just saw that my “annual” review is scheduled for Monday. I feel like I’ve made a ton of progress but now that I know it’s coming, I’m in a bit of a panic. I’ve already turned in my review paperwork and everything, I just don’t quite know what to expect. This is the first real “healthy” office job (as opposed to toxic) I’ve had. And I’ve been a retail worker for nearly all of my working life. It was one of those self-evaluations where you wrote your accomplishments and rated your own performance over the course of the “year.” (I’ve only been in the job a little over six months) Can anyone give me some advice on how this goes? Or just alleviate my fears?

    1. LKW*

      Don’t stress. The worst thing that could happen is that they identify an area for improvement or say you did something wrong. If that’s the case, keep breathing. Pause. Then ask why you weren’t notified at the time you did the wrong thing. Don’t be defensive. You can freak out later, but in the moment, pretend you are as cool as a cucumber in the freezer.

      If this is a normal performance review, then you’ll review the things you did well and the areas that need growth. You’ll notice I did not say improvement – I said growth. That’s what happens in healthy environments, they help you learn new things, build new skills and stretch.

      Ask what you can do to grow your skills and for opportunities to learn more about the department or business.

      You’ll be fine. You got this.

    2. CheeryO*

      Don’t panic! It will probably be less formal and less fraught than you’re envisioning. You’ll probably sit down and go over your evaluation and maybe talk generally about how you’re doing. There’s a chance that you’ll get some constructive criticism, but you should do your best to see it as a learning opportunity. Your boss is invested in your success and wants to help you become the best performer you can be.

      Also – it should ideally be a dialogue! A good boss will also give you a chance to ask questions and raise concerns, so do a little reflecting over the weekend and ask yourself if there’s anything that YOU want to get from the experience.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Been there, done that, still get nervous lol. If your manager has done their job, there shouldn’t be any surprises coming to you Monday, and it’s instead just a chance to discuss what you wrote. These are typically relatively low-key and more boring/less eventful than you think they’re going to be. I’ve had a bunch of bad managers and I still get nervous years later, so I totally understand the anxiety – but trust me, it gets better! You’ve also only been there for six months so there’s probably not going to be too much to discuss other than how you’re ramping up and learning new things.

      Oh, and if you’ve ever gotten very surprised by a review (your manager’s feedback made you think it’s going to be a good review and it ends up being a bad one, or reversely their feedback made you think it’s going to be a bad review and it ends up being good), that is a sign that your manager sucks, and just remember that no job is a reflection of your worth. I don’t think you have anything to worry about, but just a heads up in case! Plus it’s always good to remember that you are not your job and your value doesn’t come from what a corporation can get out of you.

      Good luck!

    4. Amber Rose*

      In a normal, non-toxic review, you’ll talk about your job duties, any additional things you’ve taken in the last year, then go through whatever grading criteria your company uses to mark progress and growth. This is when you should get feedback about the things you do well and the things you can work on. There is usually a part where you can ask questions, bring up your own feedback, and talk about things you’d like to do going forward, if you have any goals or things you’re interested in learning.

      I literally just did this yesterday for the millionth time and it was still nerve wracking, so on that note, it’s always going to be a little stressful, it’s the nature of the beast. But you’ll be fine. It’s not usually supposed to be this high pressure meeting.

      But definitely go into it with any questions or concerns or ideas you have, this is the time.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I know the feeling, this is the first place that ever did yearly reviews and my first one made me want to run for the hills. Then even though that one went well with mostly exceeds expectations and praise, the second one still gave me nerves.

      It’s normal to feel that way, even when you know you’re at the top of your game, you’re still being “reviewed” and you just start letting your fears run wild in your head.

      My best advice is to try to not think about it. To try talk yourself down as much as possible. But that’s wishful thinking, you’ll still be nervous until you get the actual results. Just like waiting for darn near anything in life that feels like a game changer.

  182. ResumeOnFile*

    I’m job hunting for the first time in seven years, and I’ve noticed something about job rejections this time around that I don’t quite get. They’ll say that they enjoyed meeting me and that my skills/ interview/ resume/ etc impressed them, and though they’ve decided to move on with other candidates, they will keep my resume on file and get in touch about future opportunities.

    Is this a new way of softening the blow or is it something I didn’t get before because I didn’t have as many skills as I do now?

    Thanks to anyone who can shed light on this new (hopefully good!) puzzler!

    1. Annony*

      Honestly, it could be either. They may like you, just not for this particular job. Or it could simply be a nice rejection. You’ll find out if they ever actually call you.

    2. CatCat*

      I have heard this language before and while I usually never hear from them again, I have on one occasion heard back when a similar position opened up within about a month of when I interviewed. So I wouldn’t expect to hear anything back, but it’s a possibility.

    3. irene adler*

      Softening the blow.
      HR is ALWAYS going to present an upbeat, positive front. Even as they are rejecting you.

      1. JanetM*

        irene adler wrote, “HR is ALWAYS going to present an upbeat, positive front. Even as they are rejecting you.”

        I once received a job rejection that included the statement, “You will not be considered for future jobs with this company.”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’m reminded of a comment here probably many Fridays ago that got a “Never ever apply here again, hdu your experience isn’t real customer service!” *shivers*

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s been going since I started working almost twenty years ago now. So it’s not too new but it’s not super common either.

      I have been called months after they rejected me with an offer, that’s sometimes what they mean. Otherwise sometimes it’s just mean to soften the blow. I wouldn’t bank on it but you very much may hear from someone if their first pick doesn’t work out.

  183. K*

    Feel free to redirect if this has been addressed…

    I just took a new position under 2 managers. I have known one for a while, but never as a direct manager. I am suddenly hearing from a LOT of coworkers about how hard she is to work for. Some say she is just brisk, while others profess that she bad mouthed her last employee and stole credit, to the point the the last employee quit.

    Normally, I am pretty ok with asking management outright (& politely) about rumors, but this is my brand boss!. Since I am already in the job, is that way too risky (if she IS horrid)?

    1. Annony*

      I honestly can’t think of a polite way to ask someone if they bad mouthed and employee and stole credit. It also sounds like the type of thing where there could be two sides to the story. (Employee says she is being bad mouthed and the boss stole credit for her work, boss says employee wasn’t doing a good job and boss had to constantly redo her work).

      I think it comes down to what you hope to gain from asking about it. Depending on the answers you get, does anything change? I don’t see much benefit when you have already taken the job. Personally, I would be wary but keep an open mind and form my own opinion.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      At this point I’d file everything you’ve heard under the rumor category. Go into it with an open mind and see how it turns out.

      I mean, what are you going to do … “Hey boss I’ve heard you described as brisk to downright rude, can you tell me which it is?” What do you gain from that, you’re already working for her.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I always take what other people have to say about managers with a huge grain of salt.

      So it’s good to file these stories away to cross reference in the future but don’t let them taint your perception and don’t go asking questions when the rumors are “she bad mouths people”. That’s either the truth and you don’t want to come in swinging at her or it’s not true at all and she’s going to have her back up against a wall with a huge “WTF was that about” in her head.

      What are you going to do if she says “Yeah I shit talk everyone, whatcha gonna do?” you know? That’s stuff you can’t work out! So either you have a crappy boss or you have a boss that’s railroaded for some reason [is she hard to work for or is she just someone who doesn’t take excuses and nonsense from reports?]

      If I had a dollar for everyone who talked trash about my bosses and their ideas about them prior to me getting to know them well, I’d drive a nicer car. People love to trash a boss, they are so easy to transfer issues to and make the “problem” when it’s really a worker’s chip on their shoulder that’s talking to you.

  184. De Minimis*

    I have to say, there’s something enjoyable about meetings when you know you won’t be working there much longer. Whatever happens or whatever is decided, it won’t be my problem much longer, if ever.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I remember that feeling! It’s not just meetings, it’s everything. The drama that happens and pops up rolls so easily off your back when you’re like “oh that’s unfortunate…[and not my problem muahahah.]”

      1. De Minimis*

        I have a knack for leaving jobs right before big changes or major projects. Not on purpose, it just always seems to happen that way. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to sit through training for software that I never ended up using.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      2 days before my last day at previous job, there was a team meeting. Which basically boiled down to: Everyone’s been working really hard, and we appreciate it! But we’re behind, so work harder. And we’re not going to improve training or give better direction to people so the work gets done faster.

      Yeah, not sorry I was leaving.

  185. Anon and annoyed*

    I can’t say this directly to the candidate, so I’ll say it to you guys.

    I know it can be exciting to apply to a job you’re really interested in, at a company you’d love to work at, and I know you want to move forward with the interview process IMMEDIATELY, especially if you’re sure you’re a perfect fit for the role, and/or you’re currently unemployed and need a new job kinda nowish. But I implore you guys, do not email members of the company’s TA team the DAY AFTER YOU APPLY iterating your interest and qualifications. For one thing, sometimes it takes a few days for someone to get to you. Second, it’s hard to tell who’s actually in charge of selecting candidates and doing the first-round phone screen, so following up with someone who has nothing to do with the role will just annoy them, they can’t do anything to push your application along, and they’ll have zero desire to bug the recruiter for a total stranger *just* because you had the gumption to reach out. If anything, emailing the very next day might hurt your candidacy.

    If you have to follow up, please try to wait a week. Or at least a few days.

  186. Okay*

    Today one of our PIs declared our results meaningful because “*gasp* the entire first quartile of patients are in the top 25%”

    …

  187. Pipe Organ Guy*

    Has anyone had experience with carpal tunnel release surgery and recovery from that surgery?

    I had that surgery done a week and a half ago, and I want to get a feel for what others’ experiences have been in returning to work and readiness to return to work.

    My job has two parts. One is office work, the greatest part of which is creating the Sunday worship booklets, as well as booklets for weddings, funerals, and other special services. I’m feeling like by this coming Monday I will be ready to return to the office part of my job. My fingers are working very, very well, and I have minimal pain/discomfort.

    The other part of my job is that I’m the church organist. That means two services on Sundays, a weekly choir rehearsal, and weddings and funerals as they come up. My plan is to resume that after two more weeks, and plenty of practicing to get my practice endurance back. (The longest I’ve done so far since the surgery is about 45 minutes, when the heel of my hand protests a bit. I need to build back up to 2-hour or longer sessions.) I’m used to playing at a fairly high level–Episcopal churches tend to like their music, and it’s not praise band music; think of J.S. Bach as core repertory for us.

    So: does anyone want to share recovery and return-to-work experiences that might help me in my judgment about when to return to full-strength work?

    1. OyHiOh*

      Are you in a position to get physical therapy, or at least a consult to get a sense of what a recovery timeline should look like?

      On a personal note, my dad was a professional church organist/Director of Music most of my growing up years and he and all the other pros in town took turns giving each other vacation weeks and such. My favorite to follow him along to were the Sundays he went down to the Episcopalian church. His church was progressive Lutheran, a wealthy educated congregation that prefered Bach, Handel, and Mendelsson over just about any other options but there’s something about the Episcopalian service that I just found very satisfying and renewing.

    2. Paquita*

      No advice here but do you give lessons? Moderately talented pianist but would love to learn the organ.

  188. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Someone responded to my “Sorry it’s too expensive so we’re gonna have to go somewhere else.” with a “Oh I bet I can get a better discount for you, brb!.” and I was like “Okay cool…let’s see what this looks like.”

    They offered me a 3% discount. I was happy we did this over email because I started laughing. And it’s only for the first year of service. Lort.

    I can laugh because I just got competing quotes for 25-35% less on other comparable options. Keep your high margins and multiple party markup. I’m only somewhat sad because you can really tell when someone is working on commissions when you’re buying large amounts of things, yikessssss. But my job is to lay upon this fictional pile of gold coins and guard it with my breath of fire, I only feel a little sad when I have to say “No coins for you, move on before I scorch your shoes.”

    1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Oh yes, I’ve had ridiculous responses to the same. Usually they want to know who the other company is, how far under they were, what were the exact specs they bid on (the same as I gave to everyone — copy and paste), they want me to do the math for them for a percentage under if I’m not willing to give hard numbers… For vendors I intend to use on other projects I play along up to a point but time is money on most of my projects so I’m not doing multiple rounds of “sharpening their pencil” with them.

      The worst was a large international company that was more than double the price of the lowest bid from a small local business and I just let them know they’d have to come down by more than half to get the job and the whole bidding process with them had been such a headache — I actually didn’t mind giving them a bullet list of their shortcomings.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I got a bid for 80% under the “big guys”, HOLY MOLEY. But I’m still letting big-guy hangout while I’m “collecting data”. I don’t give them that much of a shot to keep bidding though, I am the master of “We already made our decision, the bidding has closed for this project.”

        I just had some jabroni call me up after ignoring him for a week because 1. I didn’t contact him, someone else did on our behalf. 2. I know that he’s a thirsty sales person and is not the only person who can quote this product. 3. I said NO.

        He tried to tell me that ‘Other vendors have asked for quotes and wanted to see if that was us and if we were still interested.” when I was like “Yeah, I’m sure that you get all the quotes ever with this multi million dollar company that you work for and would get any and all of our possible requests forwarded to you…” [I triple googled them to make sure, since I know that in some cases, the places are so small that it is one vendor with one sales person, I’ve been that one vendor and one sales person, lol.] He took “I already forwarded my data to our team lead to make the decision. Quote time is closed, bro.” He thankfully let go of the bone he was chasing and backed off.

        And I’m delightfully looking forward to telling one person who made me chase my own tail for almost two months to get a garbled crappy bid that was 20% over my budget to say that I went to their competitor and they were able to get that down for me and under budget, bye.

        I learned long ago that the only people I share quotes with are ones I want to brutally undercut someone I’d rather not work with [with the turkey who made me chase my tail] or if it’s logistics, logistics sucks and requires a lot of data to even sniff you out at our size.

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          …or if it’s logistics, logistics sucks and requires a lot of data to even sniff you out at our size.

          I’m a little confused. What does that mean and how does it relate to sharing quotes?

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Volume, they are looking for actual volume. They want the “receipts” to prove you’re moving enough goods to give you a cut.

    2. Princess Scrivener*

      Can I just say I’ve missed your hilarity this week and wondered if you were okay? I always get happy feet when I see your byline.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        You’re too cute, stop. Thank you for thinking of me though, I’m winding down the busy season and then right as my week became more relaxed…I fell on my butt and injured myself a few nights ago. I’m back though ;)

        After next week the crazytrain pulls back in [busy time take 2] so I probably am just chasing my forked tail if I’m scarce again for awhile.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m working on getting people to call this the “Accounting Lair” instead of “Accounting Office”…

  189. 2007Britney*

    I’m ready to be done with my job. Assuming I get an offer, I need to give notice. Usually you’d give 2 weeks, right? Well, I work in academia as an Associate Director. Based off what my previous colleagues have done, they wait until the end of the semester typically, or give notice of well over a month…because their next job is also academia and that’s how it’s done at this level.

    I’m making a downward move into a job where 2 weeks is the norm, and now I don’t know what to do. Try to ask for 3 weeks? I don’t think new job would fall for 4 weeks! ugh. so hard to know what to do.

    1. Stormy Weather*

      Two weeks is customary in the US (you didn’t mention where you were) and most organizations understand that. Some will ask you how much notice you have to give, which opens up a dialogue to say, “I have projects to transition, is it possible to start $date?”

      Other places hand you a start date because they have fixed dates of orientation.

    2. whistle*

      This is tough, because you are right that the norm in your field would be to transition at a semester break. But you are leaving your field, and so you have to do what’s best for you in the context of any job offer you get. If I were in your position, once I received a job offer, I would request start date a month out (and explain the basis of this request) and if they push back try to at least get three weeks. But if you need to start in two weeks, you need to start in two weeks, the university will just have to accept that. Good luck!

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Are you actually a member of faculty? If you are, then I would try to keep to the academic calendar if possible because it would be very disruptive to leave mid-semester — but it does happen and they likely be able to have another faculty member or adjunct take over the class. For non-faculty employees, even at the AD level, 2 weeks is fine IME. My university has a lot of in/out throughout the year for non-faculty and, depending on the department, it isn’t disruptive in the grand scheme of things. Put more emphasis on what your new job needs, not the one you’re leaving.

  190. D. B.*

    I came to work today on day 3 of a head cold. I always feel like colds peak on day 2, plus I was only scheduled two days this week and need all the hours I can get. So I dismissed the idea of calling out.

    Maybe it was a bad decision. In my mental fog this morning, I forgot to take any medicine, so I felt like garbage all day and struggled more than usual. Plus my coworker, who was training me, turns out to be a germophobe. He was clearly uncomfortable being anywhere near me — and in this job, we have to share equipment.

    Horrible day. TGIF.

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      Yuck, sorry you’re feeling bad.

      I don’t think it’s fair to call your coworker a germophobe. It’s very, very normal to not want to work closely and share equipment with someone who is actively contagious, sneezing, with runny nose, etc.

      1. D. B.*

        Maybe it’s not fair, although he did apply the descriptor to himself. To be honest, I feel conflicted about who is “in the right” here.

        1. Close Bracket*

          Both of you. You are stuck in a position where you had to come to work sick. Coworker is stuck in a position where they had to touch surfaces after a sick person had.

          Btw, I still wouldn’t call your coworker a germophobe. That is exactly the kind of self deprecating language that Alison tells us to use on unreasonable people. He is saying, “I’m a germophobe,” but he means, “If you get me sick, I will end you, you inconsiderate sociopath.”

      2. Fikly*

        Yeah, germaphobe implies unfounded fear. You don’t know that it’s unfounded – they could be immunocompromised, among many other things.

        Feel better soon!

        1. WellRed*

          No need to be immunocompromised to not want to catch someone’s obvious crud. Be nice if You could have done something else besides training in close quarters.

  191. Miss M*

    One more question. Is this normal?

    I am booked for company travel but am giving my two weeks notice so they have to cancel it. However, they said that because the flights are in my name, I can either pay them for those tickets or “let the company eat the costs.” It is not in my contract or in the handbook that employees absorb the cost of the travel upon resignation. How do I push back on this? I said I can’t afford that but they’re continuously pushing this on me.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Team Let the Company Eat the Costs. Sounds like they paid for the tickets, so they can’t do anything like refuse to reimburse you. I would continue with, “I’m sorry, it’s not possible for me to take on ordinary business costs for you.” It doesn’t matter whether you can or can’t afford it. Cancelling booked tickets is an occasional business cost. They get to eat it.

    2. Colette*

      “Oh, I have no need of those flights and won’t be able to reimburse you.”

      It sounds like they’re willing to eat the costs, so let them. If they wanted to be able to cancel flights in situations like this, they’d buy refundable tickets.

    3. WellRed*

      They put it rudely, but they said the company will eat the cost. As it should. This is a cost of doing business. Who is pushing this on you?

      1. Miss M*

        My supervisor and the HR person. A coworker let me know that they ask this of everyone who quits to see if they would pay the price of the travel. But… I always thought this was just normal business costs, as someone said above.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not reading this as an issue…they gave you an option? So you just say “yeah I won’t be paying for the trip, go ahead and cancel it and eat the cost.”

      I think they were trying to say that “we can cancel and eat the costs or you could pay and keep them.”

      Unless you were scheduled to go somewhere you wanted and would like to purchase the tickets for a leisure trip, this is absolutely a business expense that they can go ahead and absorb!

      1. Miss M*

        See, I thought they were giving me an option too! So I went with, no, I can’t pay this… so unfortunately they would have to eat the costs. And now my supervisor is pushing back with a “But this is going to cost us $450 which we wouldn’t have lost if you weren’t quitting. Do you really want us to have to be paying all of that?” So.. I said I couldn’t but it’s like the other option of letting them eat the cost is not what they want me to do, so it’s being pushed for me to pay for it. I have said I can’t three times now. Maybe I just won’t pay it if the bill comes if they don’t respect my “No”?

        And this isn’t any trip I wanted to go on! It was one I was signed up for as part of a yearly conference. No leisure related.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah then EF them, they’re idiots. I’m not nice today, lol. They are seriously dimwits.

          I’d be like “Oh I’m sorry, is this institution seriously so broke that $450 is going to cripple it? Sounds like I picked a good time to get out of here, you wont’ be making payroll soon…”

          You did everything right, they don’t know how to run a business. If I cried over every few hundred dollars we “ate” in the cost of doing business, I’d be swimming in a luxurious pool of my own tears.

        3. Close Bracket*

          “Do you really want us to have to be paying all of that?”

          Well, yes.

          Keep smiling and saying you simply can’t cover the cost.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          If they give you the bill just say, “I am sorry but I am not able to help you.”

          It’s a guilt trip. What would you do if a child or pet were trying to goad you into something you were not going to do? You’d just keep saying NO, right?
          Here is the same thing. Just keep saying no.
          If you feel brassy, you could say, “I have answered this question three times with the same answer: NO. My answer will not change. Please stop asking me.”

    5. SomebodyElse*

      Is it a fun place that you would want to visit?

      They may be saying “Hey if you want to use these tickets personally you can reimburse us for them otherwise we will cancel them and eat the cost”

    6. Aquawoman*

      I would just like to point out the level of bullshit involved in the idea that the flights are in your name. The flights HAVE to be in your name. There is no such things as booking flights for “any random person from El Cheapo Company to be named later.” They chose to book nonrefundable flights, which is basically self-insuring against the stuff that can go wrong, so they should eat the cost.

  192. anon24*

    I have a confession to make. I was training a new person at work this past week. We use 3 different sets of software that display our full names in everything we do. And yet I still went over half of the week spelling his last name wrong on all my training paperwork, emails, etc. This stuff goes in his permanent file with my name attached to it as the author. He did not correct me. I eventually figured it out myself. His last name is not hard to spell. It is two syllables. I am just dumb. Oops.

    (I am hoping he did not correct me because he did not notice, but I think he probably was just too polite to correct me, who is clearly an idiot who stared at his name for half a week before I realized how to spell it)

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Ughh I hate it when people don’t correct me. I recently hired someone who we had been calling by what we thought was her name. It was only after she had started and I embarrassingly confessed I didn’t know how to pronounce her last name, that she also quietly mentioned how her first name is pronounced. (hard to explain without getting specific, but it’s a common name with a common pronunciation, but she is from another country with a different language which affects how one very prominent consonant is pronounced)

      Why didn’t you tell us that sooner!!!! I then made it my mission to make sure that everyone used the correct pronunciation and got the correct way stuck in their heads before it was too late and the wrong way was cemented.

      Luckily I found out in time and was able to make that happen.

  193. Raia*

    I got an internal promotion! Wahoo!

    My question is about previously submitted and accepted PTO – I need verbage to ask/tell my new manager that I’d like the PTO to be honored. Much appreciated.

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      “Hi New Manager! I’m so excited to be joining your team. I wanted to give you a heads up that I have PTO scheduled for March 16 – 21. Old Manager approved it, so it’s already on the system, but I wanted you to know so we can factor that in as we build out a schedule for training and onboarding.”

      You can adjust the details and tone, of course, but the main idea is that you are matter-of-factly informing her of your schedule, not asking her to honor it.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      At your first meeting with the new boss go over transition, duties, and make sure you mention “Oh and just a heads up I have PTO scheduled for July 7th – 14th”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Say “Hey Manager, I had PTO planned for Date[s], is there any reason it wouldn’t be okay to still plan for that time off?”

      It’s the same thing as when you get hired for any new job external or internal, most managers just want to know up front so they can adjust. Unless it’s like the day after you’re scheduled to start or something, it shouldn’t be an issue with a reasonable person.

    4. Raia*

      These are all great, especially verbiage considering the schedule for onboarding. I have PTO set for the Friday afternoon off on my first week (it’s not great I know, but it was approved already and is for a real event, but if I had to I’d be flexible on it), and then two days at the end of the first month. Other than that, no PTO for the first 3 months.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        If it’s just one day and then two days, I don’t see many people being fussed about it! If it were that entire week, that may be more of an issue. But really, they are filling a spot that’s presumably open and needs to be filled sooner than later but not “if we don’t have you here every day for the first three months, we will die!” [unless you’re some kind of surgeon or something of course!]

        But the sooner they know the better so they can plan for it.

        1. Raia*

          Nope, I’m data analytics so nothing too crippling if I’m not there. I’ll tell them tomorrow a week before my start date to give as much advance notice as possible. Thanks TMBL!

  194. aiguillette*

    Ugh, I’m going to have to have a serious sit-down with one of our managers. We have a policy that for safety we have two employees in the building. We provide services to our “community”. We don’t always need, nor can afford, more than two people. At the end of the day the manager told me she doesn’t want to be here with any of the male staff. She specifically stated that it’s not a safety issue but because she’s married, “It’s inappropriate and people might gossip.” This applies to all men. Student workers, peers, etc. She was off today so I didn’t get to follow-up. I really wish people could be grownups.

    1. Oompah*

      Er, okay. Unless her stance is a legally protected one I would treat it as any other normal job requirement that isn’t being met. I am a manager and I frequently have people who dislike working together for various reasons (humans suck). But unless there are strong, valid reasons people can’t cherry pick who they will or won’t work with.

      You can’t physically force her to comply but you can enforce appropriate consequences for refusal. If she refuses to be alone with any male staff she should find another job.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Uh, I am not a llama, but I’m positive she can’t do that because she’d be asking her company to discriminate shifts based on gender. Also, just no.

        1. aiguillette*

          Exactly, the others who work don’t get to have their schedules dictated because of this woman’s concerns.

    2. Haggard*

      Ah… I know she said she doesn’t feel unsafe around them, but I think you should also press for more details to make sure there isn’t gossip in the office maliciously targeting women. At uni I avoided meeting profs alone because fellow students had been insinuating to me that I could only possibly be getting passing grades because I was sleeping with someone. It would be nice to check that that isn’t happening here.

      If it isn’t then yeah, she doesn’t get to choose who she works with. If it is, then it needs to be handled and she still doesn’t get to choose who she works with.

      1. WellRed*

        Agreed. Make sure there isn’t something else going on. If this were a man refusing to work with women there’d be seven levels of problems with such a request.

      2. aiguillette*

        Nope, no gossip targeting women. More the opposite. Women staff members overly speculating on the sexuality of male staff members because they aren’t married and keep their private lives private. Sometimes I know facts because of my position. I would not share and it’s not their business.

        This is more, “Someone I know from the supermarket, might, possibly speculate because I worked with Fergus on Saturday.”

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Wow, the gossip should be shut down ASAP, that’s really not okay. If the men found out they were being discussed in a sexual context like that, they could lodge hostile work environment complaints.

          Is this manager one of the people participating in the gossip and therefore expects it will affect her (because she would or will say the same things about other women working solo with a man)? She needs to decide if this is a big enough issue for her to resign over, because nothing about her request should be accommodated.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      There are so many people out there who are HIGHLY invested in keeping people from gossiping.

      I find it concerning that some folks think they can control the behaviors and thoughts of other people.

      People gossip. They always have and they always will. That is reality.

      What will she do when people gossip that she hates men and refuses to work with men? Because this is where she is going.

  195. Mulling over architecture/design/art school in my 30s*

    Turning 30 in a couple months. Background: STEM undergrad, some experience programing. Minored in Architecture, took gen-eds related to the humanities that included some discussion of critical theory.

    Thinking about going back to school for either:
    -an Architecture degree proper, specifically related to green/passive design, or
    -a Graphic Design degree, so that I can combine the programming with aesthetics and do UI/UX work, or
    -(this is what my heart is most drawn to, after the Architecture) an Art degree, specifically relating to installation or conceptual work.

    I visited a contemporary art museum in the last year, and saw both long-term exhibits (Rothko, Rauschenberg, and some installation work from the ’60s-ish), and new work by Olafur Eliasson. The first one left me impressed, and more alive than I’ve been in years. The second one made me think, “damn I’d like to do this for a living!” Specifically, I saw the research collage that his studio made for the exhibit (https://olafureliasson.net/researchmap/), realized how much I missed being around the more intellectual side of ecology/sustainability, and ended up wanting to do *something* based on this stuff.

    Possible cons:
    -Price tag-versus-job opportunity balance: This stuff ain’t cheap to learn in the U.S. (where I’m from and am living), although I’ve *heard* (but can’t confirm) that study can be cheaper in Europe. Having gone to school with STEMlords, I’m familiar with the “art graduate who works at Starbucks” cliche, although I have a feeling that’s based more in good ol’ fashioned American anti-intellectualism than I’d care to admit. And things may be more secure in the design/architecture side than the art side (owing to a good professional track for both), especially if there’s a lot of grant chasing involved on the art side.
    -Funding for projects if I go down the art route. My Dad was an academic. Even though he brought in a lot of money to support his grad students, he *still* had to spend a long-ass amount of time each year chasing grants… and come 2008, things got a *lot* more difficult. It wasn’t just him, it was everyone working in physics, including him.
    -What if this doesn’t work out? If I decide I don’t like it, how badly am I locked into something?
    -How much time do I lose considering that I’m coming into this (kinda, but not really) late?
    -Would I be overdoing things by going to school again, if I could just do this stuff myself on my own time? (more for the art than the architecture and design – those have actual credentials and training)

    Pros:
    -Broader integration of my interests and gifts into my life. (Although I’d still have to figure out whether installation is necessarily a gift for me – I like painting, and I’ve taken painting classes locally, but that’s probably a different animal than making and deploying 3D pieces. So “gifts” may have to be taken with a grain of salt in that context.)
    -Immersion in a concentrated environment where, outside of jobs to support oneself, one can spend time learning, growing, getting critique on work, with people who believe in doing the same thing. This was one of the great parts for me about the Architecture courses I took.
    -I think that this immersion would make things happen much, *much* more quickly than “learning on my own time.”
    -Professional advancement. An Architecture minor (in the U.S.) is *not* an Architecture degree. To my understanding, to start the process of becoming a licensed architect, one must have an actual Architecture degree. My conclusions, from speaking with knowledgeable people, is that “working up from the mailroom” in an architecture firm is not possible anymore. Frank Lloyd Wright got in more of less that way. But when the process was formalized last century, he had to be grandfathered in. I have similar concerns about the design profession.

    -More qualitatively… I don’t think I’m meeting my full potential in life. I think I could do genuinely good things for people if I were to do this. I had really, really considered going this route in my studies, but took STEM as a “safe” route. Which it really hasn’t been, exactly – I ended up having to drop a Master’s owing to a sudden family emergency and it’s aftermath, and I’ve spent the last few years trying to dig out of my depression and put my life back together. I’m in therapy, which is helping, but I want to make up for having taken a wrong turn.
    -I see other people in my area (lots of NYC transplants, some of them people my age pushed out by CoL) who worked in design or related fields and… honestly, I’m really damn jealous of them. That could’ve been me if I’d had more balls.
    -I don’t exactly have my 20s to mess around and try stuff anymore. Especially after being depressed and downright suicidal for a long time, I feel as though I should take life more seriously. And that this may be what “more seriously” looks like for me.
    Despite the (again) “MFA-working-minimum-wage” cliche from people who think that “taking life seriously” = “pursuing an American Dream that probably doesn’t even exist anymore unless you’re really freakin’ lucky.”

    Unknowns:
    -I don’t know if I’m being too quixotic about this, and that’s why I’m asking the commentariat for advice. I especially want to know, from working architects/designers/studio artists, if I’m being just another annoying “I’m having a life crisis, let’s go act like we’re entitled to Jobs For Serious Artists!” type.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I am so not in your arena so I actually do not know.

      However, I had to pause for this question here:
      “What if this doesn’t work out? If I decide I don’t like it, how badly am I locked into something?”

      Put yourself where you have options and you can see those options BEFORE you start down the road.

      I like your interest in ecology/sustainability. I think that will work into something even bigger in the future. Perhaps you can find a specific aspect of this area that will allow you a decent income for years from now.

      1. Mulling over architecture/design/art school in my 30s*

        Definitely working on getting alternate options squared away. I’m working on figuring out fallback plans in case this blows up in my face. I don’t plan on making any major decisions before the end of 2021 at the earliest; and even after that, it’s gonna take time to research and plan what I’d do/where I’d go.

    2. Clarissa*

      So you don’t really want a job? I googled “most useless majors.” They are:
      1. Fine arts
      4. Graphic design and commercial art.
      5. Architecture
      And art? No way.

      How about nursing? (Only 2 years for a RN)
      Or engineering/computer science.

      1. aiguillette*

        And if you’re willing to travel there’s a lot of opportunity for nurses. It might be hard to get a super nursing job if the hospitals are limited and the colleges are churning out RNs.

      2. Arts Akimbo*

        This is just not true. You can make a living at art– I am doing so, and I have an entire community of peers and mentors who also do it. But the catch is that you really have to hustle. I work 60 hour weeks more than not. As a freelance artist, I keep attorney hours (but don’t bill as much per hour)! It is not an easy life.

        Mulling, I would advise you that if there is any way you can see yourself doing anything else, don’t do it. Art as a profession demands obsession. If you would literally be MISERABLE not doing art, that’s when you know you should try to be a professional artist.

          1. Arts Akimbo*

            I mean you have to really, really work hard. First of all, you have to identify your market (i.e., what kind of people are buying your work, where do you find them, how can you best get your work in front of them and attract their eyeballs to your artwork), you have to get your work out there on social media platforms, design a good website for selling (and probably a separate page of the site as an online portfolio if you’re trying to attract freelance clients.

            You have to tirelessly research the publishing and gallery opportunities (i.e., find companies whose needs seem to best match the art you love to do), then follow their submission guidelines exactly– art directors hate working with people who can’t follow directions!

            If you’re in my field, you can travel to art shows, set up an impressive display, and physically stand in front of people and sell your art– it’s hard work, but that’s where you can make most of your year’s income, if you pass jury to get into the bigger shows. That advice is more for US people, or other places where there’s a big convention scene. It can be harder to find big shows like that in some other countries.

            You can run Kickstarters and the like to finance your own art books/prints/etc., but if you’ve never run a Kickstarter before I should warn that this by itself is a full-time job over the time it’s running, and then there’s fulfillment to do!

            You have to constantly have your ear to the ground and a finger to the wind to identify changes in trends. I’m not saying you have to bend to every passing trend, but attentiveness to what’s popular in the world can really make a difference in your sales. You have to be constantly learning.

            You have to learn how to be a small business owner and at the very least how to read contracts, and where to find good ones online. It helps to be hooked up with groups of you fellow artists who advise each other and help each other out.

            Oh, and lest I forget, while you’re doing all this you are creating your art (because if you do nothing but work for clients, it starts to feel like you’re just a pair of hands, which is depressing after a while). Not just creating it, but working every day to grow and improve as an artist.

            If this sounds like I’m trying to scare you off, I’m really not– I’m just trying to give you a window into how hard independent artists have to work to make a living. If this sounds good to you, that’s awesome! :)

            This may not even be the kind of artist you want to be, but there’s a window into my world! I hope this wasn’t too much answer, LOL!

      3. Nat*

        Frankly, this is obnoxious. This person has access to google as well and you don’t have the experience, insight, or positivity to provide any unique insight here. Not everyone wants to be an RN, which is an extremely difficult and emotionally demanding career.

    3. Reba*

      Architecture (at least in the US) is a really really really tough career path. In prestigious jobs you have to work for very little money for a long time after your MA. “Young Architects” are in their forties. You don’t sound like a person who would be happy churning out developer-builds. Not an expert, though, it seems likely that a green specialist has more room for growth. A research question!

      If you want to “combine programming with aesthetics” do not do graphic design. Get a UI/UX or Human-computer interaction degree. I also have doubts about whether this path will satisfy your creative itch — something to explore with people in the field.

      Also do some internet searching for “creative coding,” Processing and P5JS, Eyeo, studios like Buck, Mirada, Rafik Anadol, School for poetic computation (artist run thing). You can work in art- and design-focused programming work like ad and (corporate) installation, as a programmer, and it can be lucrative but not like a STEM job! The market for technical skills in somewhat tightening up as use of game engines is growing. These jobs are pretty localized to NY and LA.

      Do not get an MFA unless you can look at it as a weird special vacation in which you give yourself the time to do something fun and personally meaningful. It’s a great way to block in the time to make art, and to find a community of artists (this is the big thing, although of course depends on your cohort) especially if you do it near where you’re living. But it is not in any way necessary to making art. Or to exhibiting it.

      You will not make a living of off making installation art. That’s ok! Making installation art is fab. You will almost certainly not get a teaching job that supports your living expenses. That’s ok too. (I know some people do. So, so few that it can’t be your only plan.) Like, what is “jobs for serious artists” to you? Not much comes to mind for me. Piecing together temporary teaching gigs, freelance arts-adjacent jobs, bouncing from residency to residency (nomadic, no possessions and constantly writing applications) is what it looks like for people I know.

      As far as your artistic growth during this weird vacation, I think you have quite a few advantages going in over younger students who go straight through. Do you have some savings? What the heck, do it! Get into the best program you can (not necessarily a private or ivy and absolutely not a for-profit), and only go with funding so you’re not too, too exploited by the university :)

      Good luck thinking through this.

      Not what you asked about, but other things that pinged for me in your post: one, your regret. Your life is your life, it put you in front of those sculptures at the right moment for it to make this difference. I’m not saying “happened for a reason” because I don’t believe in that, I’m just saying, try to accept where you’ve been as you get clarity about where you are. Two, your regret slash jealousy and others’ professional wins — try to let that drive you to do well. DO NOT use your friends’ success (which is only a slice of their lives that you see) as a bludgeon to hurt yourself with. It’s no good. They wouldn’t want you to do that, and anyway you’re not them and they’re not you.

      Experience from which I type: BFA printmaking, MA/PhD art history in a weird specialization, briefly worked at a fine art printer, now organize events at a museum-research place. Spouse has BFA in architecture, MFA in design/media art (and depression), worked for a while in creative coding before and after the latter degree, now in a more straight up coding job.

      1. Mulling over architecture/design/art school in my 30s*

        I looked at the leads you gave re: creative coding, and it looks intriguing as all hell. Thanks!

    4. Ranon*

      Architect here, re: professional degree stuff. Start with NCARB for info about accredited programs and licensure, they’re pretty much the only game in town in the US right now (which also means state to state reciprocity is actually pretty good). Since you have a bachelor’s degree you’re probably looking at a 3 year Masters of Architecture at an accredited school, plus the required internship hours (paid) and the exams. All this is on the NCARB site. You don’t have to be licensed to work in architecture, plenty of people work under licensed architects and skip the whole legal liability fun that comes with being the stamp on the drawings. For info about pay, look up the AIA salary survey- they do an industry wide salary survey annually and break it down by region and experience for free, for a few hundred bucks you can get a really detailed breakdown by firm size, etc. That should all help you run numbers.

      To figure out if you really want to get into the profession, there’s plenty of ongoing events in most communities that you should be able to attend- evening lectures at most architecture schools are open to the public and your local AIA chapter likely has some committees and other activities open to the general public- my local chapters’ Committee on the Environment and the Embodied Carbon Network are both open to everyone, for example.

      There are high design firms that expect long hours for little pay, but there are also plenty of firms doing good work where people get paid decent wages to do their job and go home at night, the trick is figuring out which are which and which kind you want to work at. Same with schools- there are places that are more design focused and places that are more pragmatics focused, know what you want before you start giving them money.

    5. Jules the First*

      So I’m going to give you the response that I give to everyone who is “thinking about doing architecture”. Don’t.

      Architecture is the kind of all-consuming job that means you need to want it with every fibre of your being. People who end up being successful architects are the people who did architecture because it never occurred to them that there was anything you could do other than architecture. Really.

      If you go study architecture now, you will spend the next five years in school. You will then spend the next five years after that drawing door details and wall sections and brick patterns. Then, if you’re lucky, someone will let you draw a ceiling. Or a floor plan.

      My suggestion? Check out the LEED certification process, since you have a STEM degree and an interest in green design, and see what it will take you to get qualified as a LEED assessor. That feels to me like it would be more up your street – architecture adjacent but without a lot of the downsides you describe.

      1. Mulling over architecture/design/art school in my 30s*

        I’ll definitely look into LEED certification.

        That was my impression of architecture circa 2013; I thought that maybe it was the recession squeezing the market to skew the jobs-to-grads ratio, but I was probably wrong.

    6. Mulling over architecture/design/art school in my 30s*

      Thanks to everyone for their input. It was clearly a good thing I asked this question here, this early into the game (I’m not planning on making any lasting decisions of this kind until the end of next year, which I probably oughta have specified.) It looks like I’ll have a lot of thinking to do; and, specifically, whether I’d be able to do this in ways that are smart versus ways that aren’t so smart on my part. I’ll look more closely into LEED certs etc for sure.

  196. Aggretsuko*

    I got lectured for an hour and a half about how I have to be GENUINELY CHEERFUL working here. Not faking it. GENUINELY HAPPY ALL THE TIME.

    1. Oompah*

      Were there any valid grounds for the feedback? I ask because sometimes managers might have an actual point which they communicate poorly. Of course you can’t exude rainbows and sunshine out of your nether regions but it’s reasonable to want employees to work with a positive attitude. It’s draining when coworkers are constantly grumbling and seriously affects team morale.

      1. Aquawoman*

        Well, then they’d be ok with faking it and not demanding genuine happiness (WTF?) Also, nothing justifies an hour and a half lecture. “You are coming across very negatively and need to work on a more professional demeanor” is a three-five minute conversation.

    5. sacados*

      Yikes. Clearly you need to live up to your username and go let off some steam via death metal karaoke

    6. LGC*

      Please tell me you’re doing death metal karaoke right now (or whenever you get off of work). YOU NEED IT SIS

      But also – so I see seven comments and I assume all of them are going to say what I was thinking, which is that your manager went on a bananapants rant. I can see saying that you have to seem cheerful, and that you do seem to be a bit down (which is still very problematic, but not…you know, completely bonkers), but…whoo boy, that’s something.

    7. KoiFeeder*

      Well, you’ll certainly be happy when you feast on the lecturer’s corpse. Maybe that person should keep that in mind.

      1. Lizzie*

        May I recommend Smile or Die: How positive thinking fooled America and the world by Barbara Ehrenreich.
        She also wrote Nickel and Dimed. All of her books are thought provoking. Smile or Die (it may have a different US title) will reassure you that what you are being asked to do is dishonest, exploitative, and will do you harm.

  197. Retail not Retail*

    Does anyone have unexpected work stressors?

    I completely lost my mind 2 times this week over my individual project (yes it’s undone no we don’t have enough supplies i have to stare at it for 4 hours) but then today i turned too soon in this huge vehicle and knocked a gate off its hinge. Or something, whatever. Is it because it’s a one time thing vs ongoing?

    1. WellRed*

      Is it looming large because it’s *your* project? You feel more responsible for the outcome, despite having limited control over things like resources? Not sure what a fender bender has to do with it.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        Oh it being my responsibility definitely makes it more stressful. 2 of my colleagues will critique it but never offer help. I want to take more of our limited supplies to make it as perfect as possible, but the other projects aren’t done yet either and are in greater need.

        I just meant – i damaged a gate friday. Didn’t feel a lick of stress. I spent tuesday and thursday an absolute wreck over this stupid project. I’ve also asked my manager for help to no avail – he printed out instructions i’d already read that described this project done in a totally different way.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It’s pretty normal for a stressor to take away our presence of mind and we lose sight of what we are doing in the current moment.

      As an extreme example it’s not unusual for a person who has experienced a loss to suddenly have a car accident or a slip-and-fall accident. It’s because we don’t concentrate on what we are doing at the moment, we are lost in thought/distracted by the stressful event.

      What is good to know here is, yep, we can be vulnerable to accidents, forgetfulness, misplacing things, etc. This is what stress does, it lowers our ability to focus on the actual task we are doing right now.

      I went through some high stress (to ME) stuff. I was scared crapless that I would lose my focus while driving or doing other tasks. Fortunately, my accidents were minor compared to what could have happened. I dropped things, I got a little cut from a slip with a knife, etc. It was minor stuff, but it did telegraph to me that I was not focusing as well as I thought I was.

      Suggestions:
      Allot a little bit more time for doing things, so that you are not hurrying.

      Grab some extra rest as often as possible. And don’t skip meals. Yes, it matters. Keep your routines in place. Even if you don’t eat much, eat something at each meal time. If you don’t sleep much, then lay in bed and read or do another quiet activity.

      Where you can, schedule stuff to do at your peak point in the day. For me, I put all the hard stuff in the morning when I had the most energy, so that by afternoon I could (comparatively) coast.

      Know yourself. I hope you chuckle. I am a great one for misplacing keys. I know this about me, so I put my keys on a clip and I started clipping them to something larger, such as my purse or tote bag. Yesss, people laugh at me in good fun, but I am not constantly looking for my keys. One less problem.

      And something that is good to know, the more stressful stuff we handle the more we get used to it and it does not bother us as much. Take pride in building a plan, any plan, to deal with a stressor that comes up. Be proud of yourself for coming up with any idea- don’t skip this part. Pat yourself on the back where applicable. Sharpen your plans as you go along. This is the confrontational part but it also helps you to take back your power. Stress is the loss of power, a feeling of no longer being in control. Think about what you can do to rope the situation in a little bit. I found I could do prep work. I found that I could work ahead and complete other work to get it out of the way. Sometimes there was really not much to do, so I cleaned up things or organized things that I had been meaning to straighten up.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        Part of yesterday’s problem was driving a wider vehicle alone. It was the first time I ever drove that one – it’s also so much taller. Very undignified to get in.

        I just meant I knocked the gate loose somehow and was like eh. Most of our gates are broken in some way, if I hadn’t reported it no one would have known. They’d just say “stupid wood stupid gate ugh who hit it” as they fought to move it. Another gate was just fixed and is now uneven and requires two people to shut.

        Meanwhile my project is… my project. It will be front and center and we don’t have enough supplies to make it look good so I also didn’t have anything to do by day 2. We only work on these on inclement weather days since they’re indoor work. On day 2 i poked around to look productive then went to another area of the indoor place to do some basic maintenance (it’s really hard to be vague!)

        The weird thing is is my project makes my brain go !!!!!!!!!!! but damaging a gate was a big eh. It happens. Like no stress from that.

  198. CoffeeLover*

    I work at a giant company and I’m starting to think that’s a problem because 1) everything moves like molasses and I’m not great at dealing with that; 2) there are so many problems with simple solutions that are really hard to implement because you need to deal with hundreds of people and antiquated ways of doing things; 3) I feel like a replaceable cog in a giant wheel. I want to try working at a smaller company but I feel kind of stuck. Like my experience – as a generalist working for Goliath – doesn’t market itself well to smaller firms. I don’t know if I’m just griping or I need advice really… Does anyone else have this experience/feeling? Any stories of successfully moving from giant firms to smaller companies? Especially as someone earlier in their career without a lot of accomplishments to offer?

    1. Aquawoman*

      Do you have feedback supporting the idea that your experience doesn’t market well to smaller firms? It seems like generalist may be more attractive to smaller companies given their limited personnel–people need to wear more hats.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I feel like saying this to a smaller employer as to “why” you want to work there would be a huge plus in your favor. I’d rescue all the cogs in the wheel if I could.

      Have you looked to downsize from Mega Giant to Less Giant and gradually skip down some levels in size? That would usually help you start easing out of the Mega Life! I wouldn’t go from 10k department of 1k to a micro company, you may experience culture shock you don’t want to. But you could always you know, try to skip down to a 500 person ship and still be someone’s generalist! And then after that try to find a 250 company if it’s still too big.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think that it’s actually easier to get into smaller companies than larger companies. There’s many reasons for that, not the least of which larger companies have more applicants and can be picky as heck.

      Go over Alison’s resume and job hunting advice with a fine tooth comb. Knowledge is power.

      I agree with TMBL that you can say you want to work some where that you know you are making an actual contribution. Saying that will resonate well with many prospective employers.
      It is a different environment working for small employers. At my current job I have shoveled/salted sidewalks, fixed cantankerous toilets, done most of my own computer problem troubleshooting and repair and so on. I have a desk job. So be prepared to sort of feel your way through things on the next job. In a job like mine you will definitely not be a cog in the mechanism. As you can gather here, there are other problems. I will say that I am NEVER, ever bored and I place a high value on that.

  199. Anonya*

    My entire floor smells like Vicks because our resident crunchy granola dude is treating his cold and congestion with some spectacularly powerful blend of essential oils. I literally feel sick to my stomach from the smell. Not cool, dude.

    1. Chronic Overthinker*

      Yikes! Our lobby reeked of perfume from a client for what felt like 45 minutes after they left. And I have a cold with congestion, so if I could smell it, then it must have been even more potent. People need to learn restraint in regards to odors they can control.

    2. Jaid*

      I was on the train when a young man sat next to me. The smell of a three pack a day habit was barely tolerable.

      Oi.

  200. BrandyTeapot*

    I’m a data professional in the Midwest approaching the magical two years of experience. I’ve been getting contacted by some recruiters and still don’t quite understand how that whole process works when they’re a recruiting firm placing me at another company. They make money when I get hired, right? What should I expect working with them? How do I tell legitimate ones with good opportunities from spam? Is spam even a thing in tech recruiting? (Since I’m in flyover country, why is a guy from Atlanta messaging me? Is he just messaging everyone to add me to a list to say he has a big list?)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all, yes they should be getting paid by the firm they’re placing you with. They get a commission based on the salary you would be getting, [say like 10% of your annual salary of 50k kind of thing].

      NEVER pay a recruiting firm. If they ask you to give them money, they are a scam. There are those places out there and they are evil.

      All recruiters are different, some give you that ugly “used car salesman” vibe and some do not. Go with your gut. They work for you. You do not work for them. You are their “product” in the end that they’re selling to companies.

      Some are from pretty big organizations, so you can look at their organization online. Many are actually also temp agencies that have recruiting within them to try to get “temp to hire” positions, those are usually not what you want, there too wishy washy and they may not choose to hire you on in the end. [Those are great if you’re looking to escape of course but not if you’re just lukewarm about launching from your current position.]

      If you’re interested, you should talk to them. Be firm and don’t worry about wasting their time, again they work for you in the end. Always keep that in mind, these aren’t your friends, they’re not your employer, they are your vendor!

      Most are mass messaging, they aren’t combing that closely until they start getting responses. Also they’re known to not respond to your response if they then look at you deeper and decide you’re not what they’re looking for or they’ve already filled the gig.

      It’s sometimes worth a sniff but I don’t suggest them unless you are dealing with 1. wanting to find work or 2. you’re looking at a company who tends to hire chiefly through recruiters. Tech is pretty well known for using recruiters, so most aren’t really scammers but they will still make some stupid rude techniques to try to get someone in a shitty job so they can make their money.

    2. Lyudie*

      Yes, they make money when you get hired from the company they place you at. They should not ask you for any payment whatsoever! If they do, run. They might also only get paid (or get paid the full amount) if you stay for a certain amount of time so they have an incentive to find a good fit.

      Spam is totally a thing in recruiter. I get a lot of messages/emails from recruiters for positions 1) nowhere near where I work 2) not even close to anything I currently do or have ever done. I feel that if they cannot be bothered to look at my LinkedIn and see where I am and what I do, I am not required to bother replying to them. Your Atlanta guy probably found you on LinkedIn and is sending messages to anyone he can find who matches the job description (or not). Though I suppose he could be in Atlanta but recruiting for a position where you actually are. I actually once had a recruiter see my current company name on LinkedIn, call my company’s main number, and get the switchboard to transfer him to my desk phone.

      As far as what to expect, they do vary…some will communicate with you a lot and some will not. You’ll likely not hear from them unless they have a position they think you’re a match for. So feel free to talk to different agencies, as I said elsewhere today I think they expect that you’ll be casting a wide net and they often have contracts for a particular company. They will communicate with the client company on your behalf, set up interviews, etc. They might want to modify your resume to fit their template…I haven’t personally experienced that but I have heard it is a thing. You might want to ask if they can let you see it so you can make sure they haven’t messed up the formatting (or give it to them in PDF and see if they can use that instead so they can’t modify it).

      Be sure to ask if the position is a contract or direct hire/placement if they aren’t clear about it upfront (good ones will be very clear about it). As a contractor, you will work for the agency while working on site for the other company. But you are an agency employee and benefits etc. will come from them. Some do find permanent employees for other companies, but some only do contracts. Be aware that being a contractor can give you a lot of flexibility (they can find other assignments for you if the contract ends/doesn’t work out) but you will likely not have paid time off or other benefits. Be sure to ask about that. You might be able to get more money, however, in lieu of those benefits.

    3. pally*

      Don’t spend any of your time on a recruiter unless they have an actual position they are recruiting for. Have them tell you about the particulars.

      I get contacted by recruiters who open with a “found your resume in our files and wanted to touch base with you to see if I could help find what you are looking for” spiel.
      They want to talk about what’s on your resume, what you are interested in, blah, blah, blah. They go on and on for many minutes-of your time! When I try to steer them to an actual job opening, they counter with “we have lots of jobs here. That’s why I reached out, I want to see what you are looking for.” But no specifics.
      Stop them right there. They should be telling you what their client wants- and ascertaining if you have what they are looking for.

      Some try to steer things to get your updated resume followed by your references. Probably so that they can add them to their contacts database.

      Just thank them for their interest and end the contact.

    4. Clementine*

      Recruiters that come from the company itself are fine, and I’ve had great experiences with those approaching me on LinkedIn. In that case it’s quite obvious, as they have a company email address.
      But third-party recruiters that are worth dealing with are few and far between. You can get tied to one with no benefit to you, and then prevented from applying on your own. A company has to pay a significant fee if it uses a third-party recruiter, and many would prefer a candidate who is not going to cost them an extra $20-40K or so.
      There are a few firms that handle a lot of tech contracts, so if you want to be a contractor, one of those could be worthwhile.
      In general, expect the spammers and scammers to far outweigh the legitimate recruiters, and proceed very cautiously.

    5. MacGillicuddy*

      The “third party recruiters” are the worst. Here’s how they work: CompanyX hires PlacementFirmABC to find candidates for a job opening. PlacementFirmABC hires a bunch of recruitment firms to find candidates. You (the job seeker) get calls from all of those recruitment firms for the same job. It’s a real cattle call, they can’t answer your questions in any meaningful way, and the pay rate (if they quote one) is NEVER negotiable. And it’s often as much as 40 or 50 percent below market rate. Don’t bother. You’ll end up going through a lengthy application process ( mostly all online), and you will never hear back.

      Another point – keeping track of where you’ve already applied (directly to companies and via recruiters) is crucial. So I always ask recruiters “What’s the company where this job is?”. If they refuse to tell you, that’s usually a danger sign. I would say to them “I’ve applied to several jobs and I don’t want to get into a “dueling agency” situation. And I need to know where my resume is being sent.” And if they ask where else you’ve applied, don’t tell them. Just give a vague “Oh, several places” answer.

      The good recruiters are great. The bad ones are dreadful. Good luck.

  201. Spessartine*

    I had a second phone call today with a job that I applied to last week (through Indeed). Things are sounding great and they want to fly me down for a visit. But the person I talked to today asked me to fill out an application through their website as well. It’s…quite detailed, and wants both starting and ending salaries for my last three jobs! Is it fine if I just leave those parts blank? I don’t think it’s any of their business, plus the salary I’m going to ask for is definitely more than I’m currently making. I don’t need the job–I’m stably employed at the moment–but do feel I’m underpaid, so if the discrepancy turns them off it’s not a big deal. But really rubs me the wrong way.

    The application also asks for three professional references. I’ve never had to do this before (first time doing a real job hunt). Almost everyone I know in the industry is a coworker and I don’t want to put any of them in that position. I can think of one former coworker who might be willing, but I haven’t spoken to her in several years. What’s the best way to handle this? If my former coworker agrees, is it okay to put only one reference on the application?

    1. Misty*

      Just my opinion but if they ask for three, I would not put only one. I used to be a hiring manager at a store and we would usually skip the applications of people who did that. (But this is just my experience/opinion)

        1. The New Wanderer*

          If you’ve had previous jobs, you can probably ask your manager from a few of those even if it was in a different field. A manager for any job should still be able to give info on you as an employee (were you punctual, pleasant to work with, happy to help, took initiative, etc).

          1. Spessartine*

            Unfortunately, I’ve worked at the same place for a decade and I wouldn’t feel comfortable contacting my only previous employer (she actually still owes me my last paycheck…). I honestly can’t think of anyone aside from the one former coworker. I can’t find any contact information for my instructor from college, either. Everyone who comes to mind is closer to my boss and would likely turn around and tell him I’m job searching! I wonder if I should just let him know I’m looking. He’s well aware of how good I am, I just worry because he can be unpredictable.

            1. The New Wanderer*

              Oh gotcha. I was in the same boat a few years ago, having worked at the same company for almost 12 years but in my case I had moved around internally and had multiple different managers (a mixed blessing), most of whom were retired at that point, so not quite as limited for references. That’s the problem with required references like this, you can’t be the only person whose best or only references are their current managers/senior peers.

              I think if you’re worried about your boss reacting to you job hunting, you shouldn’t tell him and shouldn’t ask anyone you can’t trust to be discreet about it. There’s too much risk to you if this job doesn’t work out. If there’s a way to list the one reference and add a note that your need for discretion in this job search limits your options for references, maybe go with that?

              Good luck!

              1. Spessartine*

                Thank you! Given that I already know they’re interested in me, I think I’ll just make a note about why I can’t include more references. If that’s a deal-breaker for them, well, it is what it is and I won’t be heartbroken.

    2. CW*

      For the salary questions – make sure to know the laws for the state you are applying in. In some states, it’s now illegal to ask for salary history. If it is illegal in the respective state, know that they are breaking the law by asking those questions. If not, be wary. A lot of companies match your salary to your history, which just means you will be underpaid at the new position. Suppose for example the job pays between $60,000-$70,000/yr, and you are making $55,000/yr. You mention you are making $55,000/yr, and the employer will offer you $58,000/yr, because they are being “generous” with the $3,000/yr raise. They are not. It is just a way to cheat you. You should be making AT LEAST $60,000/yr as they intended to. And after taking things into consideration, you probably are worth more than that.

      For professional reference, you can use a college professor or someone you interned with at another company. If you had a minimum wage job in college, you could use your former coworkers there as well. By professional, they mean don’t use friends and family. Other than that, professional doesn’t necessarily mean work related.

      1. Spessartine*

        I actually had that thought about it being possibly illegal, so I looked it up and unfortunately that is not the case for either my state or theirs. But yeah, I’m afraid it’ll invite them to lowball me. I make 56k now and will probably ask for 65-75k (which I believe is more than reasonable for my experience and skills). On the other hand, if they did come back at something like 59k, I wouldn’t have a problem turning them down. I guess I’m more upset about the principle of the thing than worried about the actual impact it may have!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      If you’re in the US, check if your state has the new laws about it being illegal to ask for salary history. Honestly, either way I would put N/A (esp if it’s now illegal where you are) or leave blank. If it’s a form that won’t accept a blank entry, put the same unrealistic number (all 0s or 1s for example) in all the boxes so it’s obviously not actual data.

      1. Spessartine*

        I checked, and unfortunately, it is not illegal in my state or theirs. Fortunately, the application is just an interactive PDF so I think I can just leave those spaces blank.

  202. DCJobHunter*

    Thank you in advance for any advice… I’m currently interviewing for a new role at a new organization. During my HR screen, the recruiter mentioned the salary range was $140-$150K. I said that was lower than I was targeting and that my target was $160-$170K. This was the first question she asked me and I could only go off the posted job description. Following that call and a first round with the hiring manager, I’ve learned that the scope is much broader than advertised. I believe $180-85K is more appropriate when taking into account (1) the breadth & impact of responsibilities and (2) my skill set (experience with the exact situation they’re actually hiring to handle). I’ve since learned $180K is not unreasonable for my local market, but I don’t believe my lack of preparation should be this company’s problem to deal with.

    My question is how best to proceed. It feels disingenuous to wait until a potential offer to start this conversation, because I realize it looks like I’m going back on my word. However I feel I was not acting off of accurate information when originally pressed for a number. Would emailing HR now and asking if that conversation could be revisited (or the position moved up one level) be acceptable? Or am I stuck? For what it’s worth, both the recruiter and hiring manager immediately said I would advance to the next round at the end of our calls, so I know I’m hitting qualifications & fit so far.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would still wait for the offer stage.

      First of all that’s only 15% more, so it’s something to keep in mind. 15% is on the higher end for salary negotiations but it’s not unheard of. You were asked at the very start before you learned more, that makes perfect since to say “based on the job description, the range was acceptable. Based on the actual responsibilities learned during the interview process, I would require more.”

      I’d be ready to walk away if they don’t want to budge if they do give you an offer, which I feel you probably are. But I wouldn’t pull the plug this early. Or try to be the better person by bringing it up prematurely. Always play your cards close to your vest.

  203. Gotajob*

    Does anyone work at Lowes? When did you get your red vest? I asked one of my co-workers (I’m a cashier) and she said that they give it to you when they deem that you’re ready. Some people receive their red vests right away and others have to wait several months to receive their vest because the managers don’t deem them ready. I’m wondering because a customer asked me if I was a vendor, and I’m just a little under a month on the register. I completed the internal training videos and I’ve memorized the computer system well enough. Is this true with all Lowes stores?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Do you at least have a name tag?

      Retail is a really strange place. I have heard many not-good things about how they treat people.
      If you trust that coworker you spoke with then take it as the truth.

      If they have an employee website perhaps you can find further information there.

      Last, you could check with your supervisor to see what the time frame is. If she hems and haws, ask her directly where you need to beef up what you are doing so you can get your vest.

      1. Gotajob*

        I have a name tag. My front line supervisor told me to beef up on the protection plan and sell them better because I’m 0 of 8 and 0 of 10 for two weeks in a row. The problem is no one wants to spend extra money on a protection plan. I’ve worked other retail stores before, so I’m familiar with retail. My front line supervisor sounds like an ass though. I made a comment to him that he had one of those Smucker’s lunchables and said I remember eating that when I was in elementary school and then he replied with an, “oh, are you picking on me that I’m eating something childish?” I said no.

  204. A*

    Does anyone know anything about UMGC (University of MD Global Campus – it used to be UMUC)?

    One of my students asked me about UMGC. They are interested in finishing their BS there, but wanted to make sure that it had a decent reputation. I teach at a community college in Baltimore, MD. I know a lot about the local schools, but not this one. I will be checking with my colleagues, but I am aware that college professors can be out of touch with what businesses look at when hiring. I know it’s a public school and it is mostly online, but not whether their degrees are taken seriously by businesses.

    1. Notthemomma*

      I actually used to work there!!! It is a solid and reputable school; full accreditation, no ‘fake programs’ and the students do real – as in actual university level work. If you are at UMBC, talk to the people in the registrar or financial aid offices; no matter what school, those are the folks with the down and dirty scoop.

  205. AWildFreelancerAppears*

    I’ve got a random question about resumes.
    I worked for a company as a freelancer. The company was struggling, and got bought out. As part of this, the new owners bought out my contract. So, updated resume from ‘Company A, StartDate – Present” to “Company A, StartDate – EndDate.”
    BUT! The new owner reached out and offered me a new contract. Yay!
    I’m glad for more work, but how do I note that on a resume?! My thought is “Company A, StartDate1 – EndDate, StartDate2 – Present (under new ownership)”

  206. Anongineer*

    So it’s late in the day and I don’t expect anyone to read this, but I am SO FRUSTRATED. The security guard at my work has hit on me in a creepy AF fashion two times now and it’s so frustrating and uncomfortable and I just need to rant.

    Incident 1 (about a month ago): I had a phone interview, and the person got the time wrong due to time difference. So instead of making it home by 7 pm, I took the interview in my car at work at 5 pm while parked in the back corner of our lot. The SG drove by a couple of times, and then parked and got out and knocked on my window and asked if I was ok. I said yes, I’m fine, just in the middle of a phone interview (quietly, so the interviewers couldn’t hear the exchange). He nodded and then left. About 15 minutes later, he again parked, knocked on my window, and said “I just had to tell you I think you’re so pretty. I see you leave work every day and you’re just so cute.” WHILE I WAS STILL INTERVIEWING. I think I said something like “oh thanks gotta go bye” and rolled my window up. End Scene.

    Incident 2 (today): I left work a bit later than most people, around 6 pm, and was carrying some books to my car that were heavy so was walking a bit slower. I saw the SG parked in front of our building facing me, nowhere near my car, and my first thought was “oh god I don’t want to talk to him and so help me god if he follows me to my car…”. I had to walk up stairs to get to my car, whereas he had to leave his spot, drive around a median area, and then he FOLLOWED ME TO MY CAR where he stopped while I was putting the books in my front passenger seat. He rolled down his window and asked why I was moving so slowly to my car, and that he always moved so quickly as soon as he could and was surprised I didn’t. I said something about the books being heavy, closed the door, and was going to walk around my car to leave. He said (verbatim): “May I just say how cute you are? You’re just so pretty. I see a lot of ugly chicks leave your building and it brings me down but whenever I see you leave you just brighten my day! You are just the cutest thing.” I said something like “oh thanks have a good night” because I didn’t know how to react in the moment (and still don’t to be honest). And then I left and am now so filled with rage and angst and a lot of things urg.

    I called my friend at work to see if she had ever dealt with this and she didn’t even know we had a security guard (we do, supplied by the building to protect the cars from robbery as we had that issue a while back) so it’s just me getting this lovely special notice.

    After completing the rant, I still don’t feel great. If anyone is able to better verbalize why I’m feeling this way I’d love to hear it.

    1. yala*

      WTF

      That is INCREDIBLY not ok.

      Like, firstly, gross. Inappropriate comments about your body and about the bodies of other women.

      But secondly, CREEPY AF.

      Please, please, PLEASE tell your supervisor. Or HR. Someone In Charge. This is absolutely not appropriate and is frankly more than a little threatening.

      Be safe, and you have every right to feel “not great.” I’m so sorry that you had to deal with this

      1. valentine*

        He:
        ~decided you’re a woman
        ~compared you to other women
        ~sees women as aesthetic objects
        ~thinks you should behave not just a certain way, but just like him
        ~thinks you owe him explanations
        ~uses his position to force you to interact with him
        ~sought you out (twice! I would count the interview interruptions as two incidents because of the premeditation and effort), when you clearly wanted to be away from people
        ~waited for you
        ~followed you to your car

        I would report him to HR and ask the company to pay for cabs for the length of his tenure. Even if he were changed to not coincide with your shift, he could do things like hunt down your work area, use your colleagues to get intel on you, or assault your car so he then has to “investigate” while being your personal bodyguard.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Please report this.
      And let your supervisor know that you will not walk out to your car alone until this is resolved. Then do it- buddy up with someone. Even if it means leaving at their convenience not yours.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Yeah, all of this. This was creepy. The guy who’s supposed to help keep things safe is making you feel unsafe.

    3. Misty*

      “I see a lot of ugly chicks leave your building”

      WTF that’s so creepy to say! No wonder you feel bad. You should def report this guard.

      The reason you don’t feel great is because this guy is super creepy.

    4. Just Another Manic Millie*

      “After completing the rant, I still don’t feel great. If anyone is able to better verbalize why I’m feeling this way I’d love to hear it.”

      It’s because someone who was hired for the express purpose of making things safe for you (and your co-workers) is making you feel unsafe and ill at ease.

      Please report him.

    5. nep*

      So sorry you have to deal with this revolting person.
      ‘I see a lot of ugly chicks leave your building and it brings me down’
      Because ‘chicks’ everywhere exist wholly and solely to be as pleasing to you as possible as objects.
      This guy needs to go. I really hope his company would say this is absolutely unacceptable, every bit of it.

    6. nym*

      Yeah, this is scary – light up those wires reporting it to anyone who will listen. Start with your boss, take it to building management, enlist coworkers to walk to your car with you.

      You aren’t feeling great because this is a bad thing. Don’t try to rationalize it away. Make a big deal because it is a big deal.

    7. Batgirl*

      I am so sorry that your security guard sucks! I only ever had one workplace that provided one and he was amazing at car park security. So much so that I was able to give him a heads up when my creepy ex was threatening to show up at my workplace.

      It’s one thing when Random Dude You Don’t Know decides that your being alone and kind of trapped by context makes it the ideal opportunity for him (working in customer service, simply having your work manners on, being on public transport, being the last person in the office: all of these scenarios have happened to me). Maybe they simply don’t know any better because they’ve never felt physically unsafe. Maybe their only worry in life is getting laughed at by someone’s girlfriends. Or maybe they fear someone having the ability to easily walk away?

      But it’s this guy’s literal job to make you feel safe and protected from creeps. He gets extra creep marks for letting you know he’s scanning all the ‘chicks’ as they leave. Wow. Report.

  207. theguvnah*

    should i push back on leadership’s suggestion that we all share a huge air bnb for an upcoming staff retreat?

    While it seems we would each have a private bedroom, some people would share bathrooms. And some people (unclear how this would be decided) would be in king suites with bathrooms and others not.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I would be very uncomfortable, so I would push back.

      Is the retreat mandatory? Will you get paid for the time?

    2. WellRed*

      Hell yes, push back! What is their reasoning? I also wouldn’t trust ever one would have ya private room. Those descriptions can be … flexible.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      We almost did this for a trade show week in a very expensive city because it seems tempting to save money.
      But our corporate travel put the kibash on it and said no due to the risk/security/insurance factors as well as AirBNB sometimes having untruthful listings and there is no recourse if something is amiss.

      If you are uncomfortable with the idea of it (which is extremely reasonable), at the very least push back so those who don’t wish to share the house can arrange for a hotel room. Probably, others will follow suit!

  208. NoLongerStuckInRetailHell*

    Should you have to pay for a personality test as part of the interview process?

    My niece just had a face to face interview today for a professional organizing position, and afterwards she received an email requesting she take a personality test, one free and one that costs $20. She wants to know is this normal? I think it’s ridiculous myself.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can she get a receipt for her taxes? :)

      I agree, it’s a deal breaker for me. But if she wants to keep going they should give her a receipt for the money. For them this is income. She is helping to defray their costs of finding a new employee.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Not normal.
      If the company wants to give them, they typically eat the cost as part of the hiring process (same with a drug test or a physical). I’ve had to take quite a few of both and trust me, the company pays.

      And personality tests aren’t very useful for hiring purposes anyway, though they can help with team building activities.

  209. yala*

    I am. So tired.

    So on Wednesday I went to my supervisor with a question. She said we should check with X, the coworker who used to do the thing before me. We went to but X was away from her cubicle. I said ok, I’ll ask her later, no rush.

    Later that day I’m coming back to my cubicle and I see X going to the one next to mine. I also see Boss coming out of her office toward us, and remember the question. “OH!”

    So they both stop and turn to me and then my brain catches up and I realize X, who is holding (let’s say) a teapot, was grabbing something from the storage cubicle and is probably in the middle of something, and I hate it when people interrupt me to make me switch gears and try to remember things from a completely different project.

    So I say, “Oh, sorry. You can go put that down if you want.”

    And X just stared at me for a while, then said in the nastiest voice: “I’m JUST holding a TEAPOT.”

    Like, I physically flinched. It was like being slapped.

    But I just said “Oh, ok” and asked my question.

    Felt a little annoyed knowing that if I’d spoken to X in that tone of voice I would be in Boss’s office getting a reprimand but hey, what can you do?

    ….

    Cut to today. When my boss summons me to her office…to reprimand me.

    “X thought that you get threatened by her holding the teapot, and so do I. You need to be aware of your tone.”

    …

    I just. Wtf.

    I was TRYING to be nice. I was TRYING to be considerate. I get now that I should’ve said: “Oh, I’m sorry. I’ll let you finish what you were doing, can you get back to me when you have a minute?” Or something like that. I don’t know.

    But just. I can’t win. I improve my work quality, well now your output is the problem. I improve my output, now you talked wrong. It’s always something.

    Like. How is it reasonable to be mad at me for what they THINK I am feeling?

    And this may be a coincidence (because Boss has been fairly busy the past few days) but the reprimand happened more or less right after she finished speaking with the ADA coordinator about accommodations for my ADHD (and I know they’re accommodations that she probably feels are stupid and just me trying to undermine her or something) so it feels like…I don’t know.

    I’m just so tired

    I actually love the job part of my job very much. I love making teapots. I just want to stay in my job and keep making teapots. But I need a supervisor who doesn’t always believe the absolute worst of me.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      That is so weird that your supervisor thought you were threatened by the teapot.

      Conversations like this can happen when people privately believe they do not know each other very well. It looks to me like X and your boss privately think they don’t know you very well.

      Can you go back to the ADA coordinator and talk about this?

      I do agree that your boss is not holding your actions in the best possible light.
      But, saying this as gently as possible, I also see that you have bigger issue concerns too. I’d suggest taking a deep breath and going one step at a time here.

      You have the immediate concern with the teapot situation.
      And you have longer term concern because it looks like your supervisor does not believe in you.

      Faith/trust in other people is built one step at a time. Just like you have to earn your supervisor’s trust likewise she has to earn YOURS.
      Do you think you can get to a place where you finally have some basic trust for this supervisor?

      If you are jumping out of your chair, screaming NO at my post here, then that tells you it’s over and it’s time to move on.

      I think the hardest answer is “Well maybe… well possibly in the future….” because this answer does not say what to do right now.
      Two people at odds with each other need to circle back and find common ground. They need to find something they both agree on. Fortunately, you say it right here: you love your job.
      There ya go. That’s it. Let your sincerity show and let your sincerity flow.

      This is not a waste of time. It’s part of building a workplace persona that you will use over and over. Even if you come up on the short end of the deal here, you will still have built up a part of yourself. Keep in mind that it is never wrong to tell the boss you love your job and you want to be a good employee and a strong contributor to the effort.

      If you say these types of sincere things and she tells you some garbage you know your ship is sinking.

      If she settles back in her chair and says something to indicate, “That’s good to know, because I’d like this to work out for you.”, then you know you can exhale here. Your next step will be to work in the nuts and bolts of what it takes to make the job work out and use your boss’ advice to get there.

      Meanwhile, I don’t wanna skate by a critical part here. You are saying you are tired. Please, please invest in some self-care. Hydration, whole foods, rest. A tired mind/body makes these things 100 times harder. I used to set up a no-fly zone. After 9 pm, I did not let myself think about work and work issues. Of course, I would mess up and start thinking about work after 9 pm. I would just forgive me and put my thoughts back on track with thinking about other things. It’s a habit and we have to build the habit of redirecting our thoughts. It was nice to have the 9 pm cut off because that was a hard set-in-stone line for me. It wasn’t too long and I started looking forward to 9 pm. It did help with my ability to go to sleep.

    2. valentine*

      what they THINK I am feeling?
      Have you previously used the golden rule, only to find the person doesn’t share your perspective? Because X seems too annoyed for a one-off. Did you explain what happened or assure her you weren’t afraid?

      If your manager is moving the goalposts, that’s not sustainable. Are there other teams you could transfer to?

    3. Batgirl*

      Sometimes the chemistry between people is not right. I once had a supervisor I felt that way about and nothing I did ever made her like me better. The minute I moved jobs I went back to being a superstar even though my work was identical.

  210. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’m extra tired of shipping/receiving not giving anyone a heads up when something arrives. We’re not that big and this is basically one of very few jobs, I’m so stinking annoyed by this kind of oversight. I’m always chasing things down and it’s even more frustrating when I can’t physically check things with my leg all busted up. Grrrrrr.

    1. Anonymato*

      That is really annoying! It’s not “received” if the right person doesn’t know it’s arrived. Sorry.

  211. Eyeball*

    So I’m trying to break into a creative job in tech after being in customer service and blue-collar jobs FOR EV ER (okay, 15 years or so). I hold a degree in film production and have been making short films and music videos for a long time — love doing it, it doesn’t pay well and I’m sick of working at a grocery store. A friend of mine (Minerva, for clarity!) referred me to a friend of hers (Cornelius) who works at a local tech company. I chatted with Cornelius a bit, sent him my resume, thanked him profusely for letting me pick his brain, yada yada, I didn’t think anything would come of it since he is an engineer and isn’t really associated with the marketing or creative department.

    Well, fast forward to now and the company Cornelius works for is hiring a video editor. I get back in touch with him and he offers to refer me to the position. I scrabble together a cover letter (using AAM’s advice) and send him my portfolio/resume/cover letter. He emailed me back and (politely) told me that he would not be able to refer me with my current portfolio, that some of the music videos I have done have content that he would “not want to associate with himself at his place of work.” Obviously it stung to hear that, but well, that’s his prerogative. I thanked him for the wake-up call, he suggested I put together an auxiliary site without the music videos, which I will do.

    That said, these music videos are really well-done (if I say so myself!) and I am very proud of them. I think they have some of my best editing work, and I also think they’d sell me to the right company better than anything. So, do I have the music videos on my site, just in a little “after dark” section? Or do I take them off completely? Or do I make a Korporate Korner portfolio that consists entirely of boring stuff and just don’t send out my real site at all? How do you know if a company is down to see weirder stuff? I’m in Silicon Valley and companies like to talk about breaking rules and disrupting things — does that extend to crazy music videos?

    I’d love to hear from anyone who works in a creative field that is related to their personal art. Thanks for reading.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Get a trade name and set up a different portfolio with that work.

      Was Cornelius speaking just for himself and the referral or on behalf of his company?

      1. Eyeball*

        I thank you for and respect that suggestion, but alas, I don’t think it’s an option for me at this point. I’ve got ten years’ worth of this work floating around out there, and for any other reason I am proud to have it associated with my name. I guess I just have to consider how badly I want a job like this.

        Cornelius was just speaking for himself – his words were something like “You’re welcome to apply for this job on your own, but I don’t want to be associated with this stuff at my workplace.” And like I said, that’s real, but it stings and definitely makes me question myself – if someone googles me and these videos turn up, am I blackballed even though I didn’t present them as part of my application? Are they the reason I haven’t been getting interviews?

        1. Close Bracket*

          OK, well, that’s just Cornelius talking, and you have no idea whether the company feels the same way. Go ahead and apply.

          Sometimes you have to make strategic decisions about how to represent yourself in order to collect a paycheck that don’t align with how you feel personally. Only you can decide how willing you are to do that for yourself.

    2. Jonah*

      I think it truly depends on the content of the music videos. If they’re upsettingly explicit or gory or something, I’d consider keeping them separate. But if it’s normal stuff like swearing and drinking or drugs or something, I wouldn’t worry about it if you feel strongly that it exemplifies your art and skills. I wouldn’t want to work for a company or with coworkers in a creative setting who are offended by that kind of thing. But, as a fellow creative who’s 100% Been There, I also don’t think you’d be a sellout for concealing that part of your work to get a job that gets you out of retail hell. If you’re not already, consider a digital marketing agency. Those, in my experience, are the chillest places to work in terms of coworkers’ personalities, and if you can work on a deadline and pitch the hell out of your ideas to clients and creative directors, you’ll get to do some really cool stuff. Good luck!

      1. Eyeball*

        So the music videos have swearing, and they’re very gay, but they don’t have any explicit sexual content (other than, like, rap lyrics about gay sex acts). They’re not any dirtier than a John Waters movie, and they’re definitely not gory – there’s a couple splashes of fake blood but nothing too crazy. (That said, maybe I’ve been working with this client for so long that my view on what is dirty is skewed!) If I didn’t want to keep my anonymity here I’d link you.

        I will definitely check out digital marketing agencies. Thanks for the suggestion! Got any tips for finding/approaching them?

    3. CM*

      Commiseration more than advice: I also have a portfolio of creative work that I’m really proud of that I suspect is not conservative enough for a lot of corporations. On the one hand, I want to say, “The ideal company for me would be a company that also thinks this stuff is rad, and appreciates the skill I put into executing it,” and on the other hand, capitalism exists and I need to work. :(

      I think, when you’re trying to land your dream job, you should be upfront about your portfolio and try to find someone who shares your likes and dislikes. If the mission is just to get a creative services job so you can leave the place you work now, maybe be more reserved and “safe” for the time being. You can’t control what they find when they google you, but people are lazy, so, if you don’t proactively mention anything cool in your application, they might not find out.

  212. TooAshamedToUseMyUsername*

    Anyone have tips on building rapport after a year on the job? When I started my job I was severely depressed, and I couldn’t really focus because of my crippling anxiety and depression. It caused people in management not to trust that I could focus on work, so I ended up being monitored closely throughout the day. Nothing formal, I just noticed a few people would check my screen throughout the day. I’ve managed my depression and given things some time, and eventually it pretty much stopped. But it still happens occasionally (a few times a week). How do you handle something like this? Is there a way to bounce back from something like that? Or should I just accept things won’t get better and put in my time? I was also recently moved to a corridor of colleagues who basically give me the silent treatment, so it’s been really hard to try to be friendly at work…

    1. Jonah*

      Have you brought it up to your manager? I’d be concerned if they’ve been checking up on you without ever actually telling you there’s a problem. I’d pose it as, “I’ve noticed that IT has been checking my screen a few times a week—less frequently than when I was new. It’s not a problem, but I’m wondering if this is just standard practice for us or if you have a concern I should be aware of.” Do it in a pleasant tone, but come prepared with a plan for how you’ll respond if they say there IS a problem.

      I’m also worried that if they’re checking your screen remotely that they have their own bigger issues going on. It’s easy to pull up a document on your screen and then do something else on your phone or just scroll without reading because you can’t concentrate. Checking up on employees that way is not a substitute for good management.

      1. TooAshamedToUseMyUsername*

        Yeah, I’ve thought about doing that but I’m not sure how to explain that I struggle to focus without settings myself up to get terminated? But it’s something that’s come up from time to time. Unfortunately I’ve jumped around a bit, and changed careers after trying a few roles, so I need to make this role work for at least another year, ideally at least 2 years.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Why do you say they’ll terminate you? If they know you’re suffering from a medical issue, they should know they are treading thin ice to terminate someone who may qualify for ADA. Do they regularly fire people?? Or are you in your head with that worry?

          1. TooAshamedToUseMyUsername*

            I guess I’m just worried if I disclose that I struggle with depression, they’ll discriminate against me. I guess I’m not sure what ADA disclosure/accommodations could look like, but I’ll have to look into it :)

            1. Close Bracket*

              The thing about ADA accommodations is that you still have to be able to do the job. If struggling to focus interferes with being able to do the job, then ADA will not stop you from being terminated for performance issues. Honestly, ADA is not the magical solve-all that other people who have never asked for accommodations for anxiety make it out to be. My own personal experience leads me to say, don’t bother disclosing and don’t bother asking for accommodations. Focus on managing the traits that interfere with performance and making the case to your boss that your performance exceeds expectations. Learn to live with the monitoring. You don’t have to be ok with the monitoring, just be able to accept that it’s happening and be able to function regardless. And work on building rapport.

    2. NicoleK*

      It’s still possible to build rapport after a year, but it will really depend on how much effort you put in and your colleagues. I have a coworker, Mike, whom I really didn’t interact with despite us being on the same team and our work occasionally overlapping. After I switched jobs, we have the same role/title now, we have more rapport now.

      Contrast that with Rachel, who took my old job. Rachel is very standoffish. She only talks to colleagues who have the same title. Otherwise, she doesn’t talk to people unless she has to. There’s no issue of her being shy. She described herself as “blunt” in her job interview. I last spoke with her two weeks ago. We sit in the same area and I see her every single day. Anyways, I’d have no interest if she tried to build rapport with me after a year on the job.

      1. LQ*

        We have a Rachel. She’s standoffish and blunt, doesn’t smile, doesn’t mingle, and she doesn’t talk to anyone unless she has to.

        But the thing about Rachel is you don’t need a rapport with her to get her to do her job so it’s not really a problem? It’s a problem for some folks who want Rachel to be nice. But honestly, I really like working with Rachel because I show up at her office door, ask the work question and leave. There’s no need to struggle through all the rest of the social and human interactioning to get to the outcome. Just, “Where’s the teapot at? When will it be done? Thanks!” Done.

        I will say the key to being this Rachel is that she’s above average for her job and she won’t stop until it’s done.

        I’m not sure that rapport is what you need to build? Maybe it’s something else that’s more of a focus on the work. It sounds like you’re doing that already and that can help. But who do you want Work You to be?

        1. MissDisplaced*

          Oh gosh! I realized I am such a Rachel!
          I’m introverted and not much on socializing at work… because I am there to WORK! I mean, work is not my first choice of what I’d choose to be doing if given a choice, right? So just tell me what you want, and if it’s within my realm to get it done, I’ll get it done. This is not being mean or standoffish.

          I don’t understand why people at work need to play silly games. It’s a job. It’s not your life. Find something outside of you work that fulfills you because your job never will.

        2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          She’s standoffish and blunt, doesn’t smile, doesn’t mingle, and she doesn’t talk to anyone unless she has to.

          But the thing about Rachel is you don’t need a rapport with her to get her to do her job so it’s not really a problem? It’s a problem for some folks who want Rachel to be nice. But honestly, I really like working with Rachel because I show up at her office door, ask the work question and leave. There’s no need to struggle through all the rest of the social and human interactioning to get to the outcome. Just, “Where’s the teapot at? When will it be done? Thanks!” Done.

          Two thumbs up!

          I don’t suppose we could use “Rachel” here on AAM as shorthand for “introvert who won’t socially engage, but is completely professional and competent”?

          1. Close Bracket*

            Scratch the word “introvert” and change “won’t” to “doesn’t” bc those word choices tell a story about why someone acts the way they do that you don’t actually know is true. Then the story you tell then impacts how you see them. Just note the facts that you are able to observe–Rachel doesn’t interact socially. Maybe she’s shy, maybe she’s an introvert, maybe she’s a complete asshole, maybe she is on the spectrum. You have no idea. Maybe she won’t interact, maybe she can’t interact, maybe she can and would but doesn’t for reasons inside her own head that you are not privy to.

            Rachel–the competent and professional coworker who doesn’t interact socially.

  213. Lena Clare*

    Somehow…I don’t quite know how…I have a deadline for an assignment in less than 2 weeks and I haven’t done any reading or planning for it at all! Obviously I haven’t written anything either.

    I have no idea how I am going to pull this off. I am working 4 days a week and in uni on the 5th day so I have the weekends and part of the evenings; but you know what it is like, by the time you get home and cook tea and tidy up a bit there is only a couple of hours, if that, before bed.
    Um, any tips to manage my time over the next 2 weeks without losing it or becoming a zombie?
    TIA.

      1. valentine*

        The details make all the difference. A 15-page paper on something that makes you want to weep and sleep? An art installation on a topic you’re thrilled to dive into? (Not now, but later. Not now, but later. Not now, but later. Not now, but later. Not now, but later. Not now, but later. Not now, but later.)

        Start right now. Plan as much as you can. To-do list, supplies, outline. Break it up and assign ETAs to each bit. Can you work fewer hours? Can you use your commute time? I would be setting up a table in the bathroom (at home) and also working on it in the kitchen while waiting for the pot to boil and what have you.

        1. Lena Clare*

          Thanks for asking these questions – I’ve realised that although it’s a formative (i.e. unmarked but counts towards the next assigment and overall mark) assessment, I want to do my best under the circumstances. I’ve left it a bit too late to do a fantastic job on it, but I’m going to try to do the best that I can on it, and that will mean letting other things slide.

    2. Sorcha*

      Break the assignment down into parts – the reading/research, writing the outline (if required or helpful) and writing (introduction, the main body, the conclusion), and allocate the appropriate amount of time to each based on your experience of this type of assignment. Set mini-deadlines for each part (read 3 chapters or articles each night this week/write the conclusion today). Be realistic about how much you can get done in an evening – don’t over-plan or you’ll likely fall behind and be discouraged. Weekends are going to be your main time for this, so clear your schedule for the next couple of weekends (if necessary) and plan to write.

      And think carefully about how important this assignment is. Do you need a really good grade? If so, this assignment has to be your priority until it’s done. Maybe consider buying in some food that doesn’t require much prep and letting the tidying up slide for a week to maximise the time you have to work on it. If you just need it to pass, you can be a bit more relaxed about it.

      1. Lena Clare*

        Thank you, this is so very helpful and practical! It’s not marked but it is formative and I want to get good feedback on it because that will make a difference with my next assigment, so I’m going to make it a priority over the next 10 days, which will mean I have to let some other things slide for now.
        Have a good weekend!

        1. bibliovore*

          This is a “bird by bird” situation.(Anne Lamott) I am a freelance writer on top of a full-time and half job. For me nothing happens without a deadline. So. As said. Schedule a “work day” x amount of time for research and reading. Get up early, have your tea or coffee and start your work before your “panic” brain starts talking to you. Work until you are hungry. Eat something. Research and read some more. Are you missing information? Do you need to go to the library?
          Take a break. Call a friend. Go over the mini-deadlines with them. Commit the second day of the weekend. Blow off all household tasks. Really. Keep the TV off.
          Do a fast draft. Pretty much vomit what you know onto a word document.
          Allow it to be bad. Really, really bad. Random phrases. Cut and past from documents using a different font with a citation attached. (so you don’t accidentally plagiarize ) Read over the mess you made. Take a walk or have a snack or make some tea.
          Go back to your bad messy draft. Move around the words, make some sense of it. Write some sentences.
          Have a few aha moments where you realize you have to research and read some more.
          Read some more.
          Write some more.
          don’t drink too much caffeine.
          Let the laundry pile. Do the dishes.
          Do some revision.
          Let it be.
          Go to bed.
          Do the same on Sunday.

          1. Lena Clare*

            Thanks, this is great. I’ve been plodding along today (and also had a nap!) and trying to keep off here and the weekend forum for too long.
            And thank you for the reading recommendation, that looks really interesting.
            As a trying-to-be-fiction writer, student, and worker, I am in awe of your work output!

            1. bibliovore*

              I think that AAM is a positive helpful break in the work. Sometimes we need to rest the writing reading brain. I do watch the clock or else I can lose an hour on the weekend thread. That is why I am usually chiming in very late.
              Concur with those who said easy food. If you eat meat or fish- I get prepared food at the grocer or live on apples, cheese, and proscuito and smoked salmon and toast.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Also, don’t get yourself stuck on writing it in order. If you’re having a hard time with an intro, skip it for now and focus on one of your data points instead. For me, intro and conclusion were almost always the last parts I wrote :)

  214. matcha123*

    I’m so frustrated and trying not to be.
    I have a hyper-competitive coworker who checks my work, but isn’t my supervisor. She’s my mom’s age and makes everything into a competition. I’m not interested in competing with her, which I guess she’s taken as a threat? a challenge? and has been telling my supervisor that I suck at my job and I don’t know what I’m doing.
    My supervisor is eager to please her, and passes this on to me, with the insinuation that *I* am picking fights and not getting along with the woman.
    If I say, “I looked at files that Clare signed off on last year and made the changes you asked for for this year,” I’m told later (in our once-a-year check in) that I can’t just change the new parts (usually dates), and that I need to truly understand what our work is.
    I am trying to hold it together, but none of the permanent staff on my team are on my side, and they are stanning hard for Clare, probably because she’s scary. I can’t deal with hyper-competitive people. Honestly, I shut down and my work gets worse. If this were a ‘friend’, I’d cut her out of my life.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry about this situation, because it frankly doesn’t sound good that this person is undermining you. What I don’t get is why your supervisor is so eager to please her, a subordinate? And your coworkers too? Because that seems odd, unless the place is very, very cliquey.

      IDK but are you really being honest with yourself about the quality of your work? Does your work directly impact that of miss competitive? (Like, is she depending on your work to start her portion). If you feel you definitely ARE doing good work, you really need to have a frank discussion with your boss about what she needs to see from you, your job duties, and this other person’s so the work does not overlap and you are reporting only to her and not miss competitive. Frankly, I’m a little concerned about your manager’s comment that you don’t really understand the nature of the work. That doesn’t sound to me as though she’s siding with miss competitive, but that she has some valid concerns with your performance.

      This will not be an easy conversation to have by any means, but you’re kind of better off knowing where you stand and can take action accordingly, even if that means leaving. Unfortunately things like this sometimes happen in offices and the work itself or the dynamics change. I’ve had to move on a time or two solely because of a bad boss and/or change in reporting structure, and once because I wasn’t getting the opportunity to actually DO the work I was hired to do because the company felt they needed and prioritized a lower level function I was doing but wanted to move away from. Good luck! It can be turned around if your manager is a good manager.

      1. matcha123*

        I don’t want to give too much away, but the nature of our work means that we are dealing with documents that range from simple announcements to very technical. No one on our team is an expert in, say, cat politics, but we are sometimes asked to edit documents on the subject. Which means a lot of checking and comparing with previous documents, a lot of Googling to ensure terminology is correct and so on.

        Clare has been there the longest and everyone’s product is checked by her.
        She is a very vocal person in a way that I am not. I am able to accept that as a personality difference, but she seems to have taken that to mean that I, and another quiet colleague, are directly challenging her.

        My supervisor, is not giving me her own personal feedback. She gives me Clare’s feedback but says it’s her own. And while I know it sounds crazy, please believe me. The supervisor sometimes has to call outside vendors to give feedback on their product. Before making the call, Clare practically dictates to her what to say and how to say it. She then gets on the phone and repeats Clare’s speech verbatim. The way she speaks to me in these meetings is the way Clare speaks to people and her word choice is the same as Clare’s.
        I have asked for specifics and also asked why she, my supervisor, didn’t raise these concerns with me immediately and why she didn’t ask me for clarification if she didn’t understand my word choice or anything like that.

        Supervisor didn’t really give an answer.

        As to why a supervisor would give her so much power, I can only guess that it’s because Clare is very vocal about her likes and dislikes. My supervisor doesn’t want to be seen as incompetent and since Clare has been there longer, and Clare is older, she prefers to ‘side’ with Clare. And that’s the thing, Clare can produce some good content, but she is so focused on being the first to answer, being the one with the answers, and being the one go-to person on our team that she often makes mistakes and gives out wrong information. The frustrating part is that this is ignored by our supervisor.
        I include references with my work to show that I’ve read up on the content, and Clare told me herself that she ignores those. Which would be fine if we didn’t have to go back later and correct her own mistakes…which are then positioned as my mistakes because no one wants to blame Clare for anything.

        I get that leaving would be the easy way out, but I can’t leave now for various reasons.
        I should add that there are two other colleagues at my level who also have their work massacred the same way mine has been and a coworker who recently left and had been there longer than I, also had her work treated similarly.
        As far as I can tell, if Clare feels that you don’t see her as some kind of savant, then she wants nothing to do with you. It doesn’t matter if you quietly do as you’re told, like I have, or vocally fight against her ‘corrections’ like a past coworker did.

    2. andy*

      Since both supervisor and collegues see things her way, is it possible thay this workplace does things differently then your last place and they expect you to adopt their way and expect her to be senior who tells you the difference?

      You dont say where you work. But in tech that would not be unusual and here can be similar. Manager or lead is not an expert nor expected to know how details are done. It is up to senior developers to show new people how things are done – and typically team ends up with one person who does that (it is not good idea to have multiple people teaching new one).

      Your team may have similar structure.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        A good point. The poster does not say if she is new and/or if the competitive worker is newer. And we don’t know if the competitive coworker is an equal or more senior or skilled/senior level? (like Associate Teapot Designer and regular Teapot Designer). It is also possible this competitive worker was told by the boss to check the work–in which case she is doing her job and not just being a competitive bitcheatingcrackers. Hard without more context than given here to the team dynamics.

        “I’m told later (in our once-a-year check in) that I can’t just change the new parts (usually dates), and that I need to truly understand what our work is.”

        I’m curious to hear how the OP followed up on this comment? Because that’s a pretty big red flag. I would have asked what the manager means by this exactly, and if so, how I could better understand if I was doing it wrong and indicating I wanted to learn how to do it right. It sounds almost as though OP just kinda skulked away from this check-in without having a real substantive talk with the manager about performance overall and what “good” should look like?

        1. valentine*

          That quote depends entirely on the beginning:
          If I say, “I looked at files that Clare signed off on last year and made the changes you asked for for this year,”
          I would feel gaslighted. The supervisor completely forgot the changes he asked for?

          I’m reading Clare as finding you threatening, which tells me you’re good, and, what, worried they’ll push her out or she’s been the only x and now there are two of you, she feels like everyone’s fussing over new and shiny you? Or she’s terrible or or as great as she’s been letting people believe and you could throw a light on that.

        2. matcha123*

          I don’t think there’s any way to have a substantive talk with my supervisor. At our previous check-in, she started by asking if I was going off shopping during the day because I was “always” away from my desk.
          I explained that I was using the restroom, something which any of the other women in the office could corroborate since I run into them there often. The supervisor followed with an apology and told me that “people are watching” so I’d better “be careful.”
          I did ask about creating a team check-in so that everyone was on the same page and the supervisor seemed open to that.

          Since joining Clare has, through our supervisor, insinuated that I dislike older workers, that I dislike her, that I am Hispanic and therefore have terrible writing (I am not Hispanic, although that shouldn’t matter), and that I don’t understand anything (because I am younger).

          I should add that while I am writing in English, my supervisor and the permanent staff are not native English speakers. I want to keep this as vague as possible. But, our supervisor’s fear of appearing dumb when it comes to written English most certainly plays into this.

          Clare has made comments about how going to a fancy university doesn’t mean much (I went to a fancy university that I worked hard to get into and graduate from. I agree that having a degree from, say, Harvard doesn’t make you a god. With that said, I don’t talk about my university at work and I do not make comments about other people’s educational background.).
          She’s got a good job, she’s respected, she’s got a good family, she travels a lot, I don’t think she’s in debt…I don’t know why she would pick me as someone to dislike. I am not gunning for her position. I take her corrections to my work as they come, without argument, and reflect them in the final product. I am quiet, but open up when people chat with me. Other coworkers chat with me, so I chat back. Clare says nothing to me, and I don’t have anything to say to her. Especially when she sprinkles her conversations with “Well, you’re too young to know this,” or just stares and looks bored.

          Ah, and our supervisor is very friendly to me when Clare is out of the office. Which is rare, but the complete about face I experience when Clare is gone is kind of scary.

          1. Batgirl*

            You need to decide whether you’re willing to work for someone who does ‘about faces’ and is literally told what to say at times. I think your read on Clare as a bully is correct, but when there is no real leader in charge that’s just one of many things that can result; no leadership equals chaos.

          2. andy*

            You should have included these. I think that a actual expert leader of the department is Claire. Not the supervisor who probably does not even have expertise to be one. You should interpret supervisor as administrative role, ceremonial role, but not leader and not expert. That is Claire.

            So there is power struggle between you two. She and other team members see her as actual leader and you don’t.

            That includes supervisor – she does not have knowledge to give own feedback and wants Claire to have that role. Treating you nice when Claire is not there does not matter. When you are trying to force supervisor to take that role, she does not want it.

            As for Claire making mistakes and answering fast, yeah that is how you become superstar. Especially in team supervised by non expert.

            Can you get transferred to another team? In this one, it is either accept Claire as actual boss or suffer.

            1. matcha123*

              Interesting. I had pegged Clare as the ‘real’ boss when I joined the team and assumed that as long as I didn’t make her look foolish in front of others, didn’t challenge her directly, and basically upheld what she said, that I’d be fine.
              All things I’ve done, but I she seems to want more of a performance, which I’m not as able to give. I am not a vocal person in general and I’m also not much of a bandwagon jumper, so I can’t really give her the pleasure of bossing someone around…

  215. Should I stay or should I go now?*

    Any thoughts on how to decide whether to move to another city or take a job in your hometown? My spouse and I both work for dysfunctional nonprofit employers in our relatively small city. There aren’t many other options here, so we’re looking at other cities in a 300-mile or so radius. No strong feelings about where to go, but we’ve been feeling like we can’t stay here. However, I’ve just been asked to apply for a position with another local nonprofit, and it would probably be a good fit. Now I don’t know what to do, and I don’t trust my gut – it’s pulling me toward staying, but I think that might be fear and maybe I just need to move on. And I love the thought of a fresh start somewhere, but the stress of moving is not something I have the bandwidth for right now (and probably never will if I stay at my current soul-sucking job). I just feel stuck.

    1. nep*

      You make a great insight–so true that fear can skew things when we want to discern what our gut is telling us about a huge undertaking.
      This part of your post is huge: ‘and probably never will if I stay at my current soul-sucking job.’ You don’t want to stay in that job, but the job saps the very energy you need to move on from it.
      I have found that just taking an action in a certain direction I want to go–even a seemingly small action–really gives a lift, a boost of confidence and energy. So I guess I would say your feeling of overwhelm about moving won’t necessarily remain so huge and daunting if you take actions toward something you know will be better and healthier for you in the long run.
      Wishing you all the best. Keep us posted.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Apply for the other job!
      That’s a first step. You can decide later whether you stay or move. Maybe moving is still a year or two away anyhow.

    3. Boldly Go*

      I moved halfway around the world a few years ago (I was also stuck in a dead end job in a country with few opportunities. I had an amazing opportunity for a short term gig with an organization that I knew, ended up staying there a year, and then found a much better opportunity.

      Honestly – every person is different but I am not sorry I made this change. It’s been great for me career wise, financially, socially, you name it.

      You have to crunch the numbers and see what works for you. take the next few weekends to explore some of the cities on your list, check out neighborhoods, rentals, even local stores. When I moved here, I rented a horrible coop near my relatives but I hated everything about it (commute, neighborhood etc). However, that gave me a few weeks to look around – I contacted rental companies, made appointments, walked around neighborhoods, and found what I wanted – clean, quiet, safe neighborhood with a great commute to the city.

  216. not just a book jockey*

    I have realized recently that my whole identity is tied up in my job. It’s stressing me out! But I have a long commute home (an hour one way) so I don’t have a lot of time during the week for hobbyish stuff? And I’ve been so stressed that I just want to sleep on the weekends. How do I break this cycle? How do I figure out who I am besides a librarian?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I feel much the same! And I think most Americans feel the same!
      I have a 1 hour commute each way daily = 10 hours of wasted time since the company rescinded WFH. It is so exhausting I have no time or energy when I get home around 7pm. It’s basically make dinner, clean up, watch maybe 1 hour of something to chill and then bed. The weekends are for catching up on all the chores that don’t get done during the week! It sucks! I think most of us are in the same boat. Is it any wonder Americans are angry?

      1. valentine*

        Chip away at the stress. What’s the source? Is the commute oppressive?

        Sleep longer on weekdays. If you’re getting eight hours, go for nine or 10 and see how you feel after three to four weeks. Maybe you need to work the opposite end of the day. Claim your weekends. Leave work at work when you leave on your Friday and make plans, even if they’re to get up earlier than usual and having a lie-in or full-on siesta three to four hours later. Have food ready to go so you don’t have to think about it. Pick two things you would do if you weren’t sleeping, especially if they involve being outdoors, and do one each day of the weekend. No more pressure than that. Just the one. If you go sit outside for 15 minutes and sleep the rest of the day, mission accomplished.

        1. valentine*

          make dinner, clean up, watch maybe 1 hour of something
          If this isn’t how you want to use this time, can you make larger meals or have sandwiches during the week, so there’s no cooking or cleaning? Instead of watching something, do you want to paint, write, or do something else?

          If you can’t sleep or read, are there other ways you can use your commute?

    2. A*

      Pushing myself out of the house at least one Saturday or Sunday a month has been a big help for me. I try to schedule something or just take a hike. But, yeah, you’re not alone.
      Maybe take some PTO and actually schedule something FUN. Too much of our PTO gets used to catch up on everything else not fun in our lives.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Is it feasible or realistic for you to have hobby time close to where you work?

      For example, join a running/gaming/dancing/whatever club that meets after work, go for the run/game/dance practice/activity before heading home.

      I find that once I’m home, I stay at home so stating out to do my hobbies means I’ll make time for them.

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