open thread – February 7-8, 2020

by Alison Green on February 7, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. No Sitting!*

    Everybody stand-up! Can others here speak to how stand-up meetings have gone for them? What makes those meetings successful? How frequently did you have them? 
    My team could use more direction with prioritization and they also do silo’d work so this seems a good way to get them interacting a bit more.
    What are other ways besides stand-up meetings that other managers help their team prioritize? I meet with them individually and we discuss what they have coming up for the week. I will indicate if I want them to do one thing ahead of the other, but there are things that come up that  bump what was previously discussed and I want the most efficient way to get us all on the same page. 

    1. Dragoning*

      We used to have these meetings where I work, and finally discontinued them as a waste of time. We have a schedule in Excel that updates three or four times a day (we have an international department, so this winds up being about every four hours or so) that highlights when things got to us, when things are due, and which things are due ASAP (but before this other thing also due ASAP). So we use that instead.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Like do you mean intentional stand-up only meetings? That sounds like a nightmare (versus impromptu office/hallway meetings)

      1. rayray*

        My old office didn’t have an adequate conference or meeting room for everyone, so usually about 8 people or so would be sitting and the rest standing. Standing for 30-60+ minutes along the edges of the room while we go over boring information that didn’t apply to most of us, along with people who don’t hold their questions till the end so we got sidetracked the whole time…yes, it was a nightmare.

      1. DataGirl*

        me either. At first I thought OP meant making everyone stand for the whole meeting, which would be awful for someone like me with physical limitations. But from the context I don’t think that’s what it means, lol.

          1. Parenthetically*

            In my experience “stand-up meeting” just means “super short meeting” — it’s a euphemism every place I’ve heard it to let people know this isn’t going to require getting a cup of coffee and a notebook and settling in for a half hour, but just popping in to Conference Room A for 5 minutes while Betsy and Ed run through a couple of bullet points for the big client meeting this afternoon.

        2. Oh No She Di'int*

          I think if you have significant physical limitations that should be accounted for in the process. Our stand-up meetings are once a week and last about 4 minutes. They don’t really tax anyone so far as I’m aware, but if they did, it would certainly not break the spirit of the gathering for that person to access, say, a nearby stool.

          1. Akcipitrokulo*

            Yeah… but forcing people to choose between being in discomfort or making public medical issues which they’d rather not is not a good thing. It also may be temporary. You may not yet want to tell your boss. And even when you do – as I had to because the pain finally became enough – then it’s not ideal to have one person bringing over a chair while everyone else stands in a circle.

            1. Annony*

              Yep. This would be my hell. I look perfectly healthy but I actually am physically unable to stand still and remain conscious. Most people don’t know. I am good at making sure I have a seat or cutting a conversation off in the hall after a couple minutes. I son’t want to choose between possibly passing out or drawing attention to myself by being there only one sitting down.

            2. Oh No She Di'int*

              So I guess I’m not clear on why this activity would be singled out as especially evil.

              If I ask my assistant to make a photocopy of the client dossiers every time one comes in, that implies standing at the photocopier (which is in full public view) for a good 10 to 15 minutes. Is such a request therefore out of bounds because someone might have problems standing that they haven’t told me about? After all such a person would be forced to make their medical issues public if anyone saw them sitting down.

              What if I ask someone to realphabetize all the books on the top shelf of the office library, but they have mobility problems that limit how high they can raise their arms? Making such a request would again force them to publicize medical issues. You could go on and on: type up this letter, “I’ve got nerve problems in my wrist”; read this online article, “I have eye problems that make it impossible to look at a screen for more than 15 minutes”; and so on.

              My question is how do you know what’s safe to ask people for in light of the fact that anyone could have a medical issue that you don’t know about? And why is a 4-minute stand-up meeting more dastardly than any other request? At some point, if one has physical limitations that keep you from doing the normal work of the business, one has to disclose those limitations if one expects them to be accommodated, no?

              1. big_time*

                I agree with everything you wrote! I’m very much an advocate for accommodating requests and requirements, and I do try to think critically about whether a practice is creating a barrier that I might not be aware of. But there comes a point where you simply cannot anticipate everything. If you take the stand-up meeting example: say you decide to make it a sit-down meeting instead, just in case. What about the person who has medical issues going from sitting to standing? Are you now forcing that person to disclose?

                I guess I also don’t the criticism of offering that someone can bring a stool if they needs to (the criticism being that you’re forcing them to be public about their need to sit). Is the answer then just not having the meeting at all? That seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

            3. Koala dreams*

              A sit down meeting does the same thing. Some people can only sit for limited time, or need a special chair to be able to sit. I think a stand up meeting would be an improvement in many offices, since most people prefer to vary between sitting down and standing up. So if you have both type of meetings, it’s more likely people can be accomodated. It also normalize both types for when you have people who can’t do one or the other.

              1. Koala dreams*

                By the way, I have a story from class about this. It was a huge class, and the teacher at the front asked in the mic for the student standing in the back of the room to please sit down. That poor student had to scream back (because the room was so big) that they had hurt their back and needed to stand, because it hurt too much to sit.

          2. Richard Hershberger*

            Yup. I mostly would be fine standing for a brief meeting, and no worse off than anyone else for a longer meeting. But I have gone through bad back periods, up to and including full-blown sciatica. Standing for even a brief meeting would, depending on how bad the bad was, anything from excruciating to physically impossible.

      2. Akcipitrokulo*

        It’s mostly in IT – the idea is that everyone in team (usualy agile) will say what they did yesterday, what they aim to do today, and any issues they’ve got. Team then knows where everyone is and may be able to offer support or solutions.

        One issue that they have is that they are done standing up to encourage people to be brief… basically “stop talking quickly or be in pain”. Which is problematic on its own, and then you add in invisible disabilities which someone may wish to STAY invisible… yeah, they’re not great. A quick get together to cover the questions of what did… what going to do… what is stopping me… is good though. Just don’t make people stand! (Nothing in either scrum or agile manifesto that says you have to ;) )

        1. Mama Bear*

          Right, though I would give my boss stink eye if they did that “everybody plank” nonsense that I’ve seen online. Most of our “stand ups” were really “sit downs” or online Skype meetings/calls.

        2. Lygeia*

          Oh wow, this is my nightmare! I have one of those invisible disabilities. Standing kills me (I have chronic back pain from a spine condition related to a genetic disorder). More than a couple of minutes of standing makes me VERY uncomfortable. More than 15 minutes, and I am in pain. These kind of tactics are so misguided! If you want to hurry up a meeting then have a meeting with clearly defined parameters and someone with the authority and willingness to keep things on track!

          1. Akcipitrokulo*

            It’s horrible. I eventually had to start bringing my chair to them, and it is as embarrassing and awkward as you could imagine, even with sympathetic boss.

          2. Mel 2*

            Same – fibromyalgia fun. A few years back at a previous job, my boss suggested turning our weekly meetings into walks, so that we could all walk around outside while discussing the topics. Everyone was pretty excited about the idea, until I had to flat out burst everyone’s bubble by saying there was no way I could participate (especially because we were on a hilly campus). Even though everyone already knew about my disability, it did not feel great having to be the person to shoot down an idea others were excited about.

          3. Kuddel Daddeldu*

            A few years ago, a major multinational corporation decided to remove all chairs from meeting rooms as the average manager spent 35+ hours a week in long meetings. The new CEO thought this was not the most effective way to manage, so all meetings were to be brief and stand-up only. Longer agendas had to be split into one-topic sections. Each meeting had to have a stated objective, agenda, (minimal) attendee list, and time limit.
            In a culture where long, rambling, less-than-focused meetings were the norm (people falling asleep in meetings was commonplace), this was a revolution.
            He mellowed a bit after a year or two, but most meeting rooms still have a circle of lecterns rather than a traditional table with chairs.

        3. Admin of Sys*

          I mean, our general reasoning for stand up meetings is it keeps folks from bringing their laptop and doing other work things during the meeting. (also, we don’t have enough meeting rooms and have a small team). But yeah, during my recovery from a foot injury, the ‘stand up’ meeting included me in a wheeled chair, which was a bit awkward.

        4. theletter*

          I’m on a team that does a lot of stands – I can attest that very few people actually stand during Stand, it’s now just a way to illustrate the point – the meeting is for cross-functional teams to quickly catch each other up on interlocking projects, with the idea that people can extend the meeting with specific teammates if they suddenly realize they need to work together.

      3. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        A few years ago, a major multinational corporation decided to remove all chairs from meeting rooms as the average manager spent 35+ hours a week in long meetings. The new CEO thought this was not the most effective way to manage, so all meetings were to be brief and stand-up only. Longer agendas had to be split into one-topic sections. Each meeting had to have a stated objective, agenda, (minimal) attendee list, and time limit.
        In a culture where long, rambling, less-than-focused meetings were the norm (people falling asleep in meetings was commonplace), this was a revolution.
        He mellowed a bit after a year or two, but most meeting rooms still have a circle of lecterns rather than a traditional table with chairs.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I had one boss say he used stand-up meetings, because he wanted to make sure the meetings would be short (presumably because people wouldn’t want to stand for too long). What ended up happening instead was long meetings where everyone’s legs were tired afterwards.

      Whether meetings are stand-up or sit-down, I think these are the components of a successful meeting:
      1. There is a clear agenda, and when that agenda finishes, the meeting ends, even if there’s still time left in the booked slot (e.g., if you plan for the meeting to be an hour, but the agenda is completed in 15 minutes, don’t keep talking for 45 minutes).
      2. There has to be a reason the meeting has to be a meeting. Are we discussing something? Do we need everyone there to have a voice? If it’s just authority-figure-dispensing-information, then send that in an email.
      3. Don’t allow the loudest people to dominate the meeting. Make sure all voices are heard.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        All of this.

        The “what I did – what I’m doing – what is blocking me” is a valuable thing to do!

        1. Windchime*

          It is, unless what you say is used as a weapon against you later, which was what happened in my old job. We had crazy unreasonable deadlines, ill-defined projects, and developers who were responsible for ETL, acting as DBA, doing architect duties, writing reports, and managing the release process. And they wondered why we couldn’t get anything done in a 2 week sprint.

      2. Richard Hershberger*

        Number 2 is a particular peeve of mine. I suspect that often the person in authority is unwilling or unable to compose a coherent email, so wastes people’s time getting them all in a room together so he and ramble on instead. Pure dispensing-information meetings only rarely are the better way to do this.

      3. Hiding From My Boss*

        Three cheers for “don’t allow the loudest dominate.” My boss recently hired a pushy loudmouth and is constantly praising her enthusiasm. The woman never shuts up and she bellows like a bullhorn. In meetings she holds forth and talks and talks and talks and talks. Brand-new to the co. so of COURSE she knows all about how things ought to be and she’s going to tell us how to do it right (not in any way her job). Wish I could give examples, but I don’t want to rat myself out here!

    5. SoapiestEagle35*

      My work does stand-up meetings on a weekly basis, lead by our general manager. I find it’s a great way to check in on upcoming business, travel plans for managers/people being out of the office and can also be great tool for people to all be on the same page. I find it also allows people to ask questions and can give our general manager the opportunity to check in with the group as a whole. The meetings never last more than 10-15 minutes but provide a little bit of transparency that we didn’t have before.

    6. ST*

      My previous workplace did standups with the leadership team for awhile – it worked great for a bit but then became just another annoying thing with people routinely having “more important” things to do … since people were often missing it, it became pointless and ended.

      But I’m sure there’s a way to do it better! I think any sort of accountability would help (something lacking at that workplace).

    7. Mama Bear*

      Scrums should be focused, short, and the scrum master should be good at herding cats. It depended on the project, but 3x a week scrums worked for most things. Fifteen minutes to say what you were working on, status of that task, and any blockers you had. If you and another teammate needed to talk about a task, that was “offline”. It may also be useful to have a team Kanban board or Trello or some other tracking system to move tasks and evaluate bottlenecks. Scrums/stand-ups are for triage.

      1. No Sitting!*

        From reading all of these, and knowing my team and duties, I’m thinking about a stand-up only once a week. I have tried Trello and so far, haven’t had the time to devote to making it work for our team and so stand-up meetings seemed easier. But you’re right that having both of those things could play nicely together.

        1. TechWorker*

          We have them daily and it works fine, but no-one talks for anywhere near 15minutes! It’s very much a brief discussion, if there’s anything that requires long discussion you take it to a different, sit down meeting. We use it both for project tracking and to point out who the most useful person to help is (eg person a says ‘I hit a problem with software y I didn’t understand’ and person b can jump in and be like ‘oh I looked at that a few weeks ago, grab me after’)

          2. Oh No She Di'int*

            Yeah, my reaction to all these descriptions of meetings going on for half an hour every day is: You’re doing it wrong!

        2. A Poster Has No Name*

          Yeah, it totally depends on your team and/or project and your cadence. I have one project where a daily standup is necessary, but another where we meet 2x a week. Teams should be adjusting their meeting schedule to meet the needs of the team, not just meeting every day for meeting’s sake.

    8. Western Rover*

      We have daily stand-up meetings, but only of people working on the same product. Anyone working on a different product will be in a different stand-up even if working for the same manager. Sometimes they start to drag (i.e. one person speaking for more than 3-4 minutes), in which case the manager reminds us to focus on just talking about what may be blocking our forward progress.

    9. Minocho*

      We do daily stand ups for larger projects. The basic format is everyone goes over the following:

      1. What you did yesterday
      2. What you plan to do today
      3. Bring up any roadblocks

      With a group of 6-7, it takes us about 5 minutes usually. Sometimes more, if there’s an issue. With a group of about 15 people, it generally took about 15 minutes. It’s crucial to not get involved in tangential discussions, and anything that requires a deeper dive should be handled in a separately scheduled (and more focused) meeting.

      1. Stormy Weather*

        You beat me to it. A daily stand-up is NOT supposed to be announcements. Those can go into an email.

        Please pardon the ranty tone. I’m a certified scrum master and I’ve seen too many teams think they’re using Agile because they have daily stand-up meetings and they’re basically getting updates from one person.

    10. NW Mossy*

      I do a daily stand-up with my team that’s usually 5-10 minutes – our agenda covers key communications, what’s in the pipeline, and a little discussion about any priority items or roadblocks that are impacting their work. I’ll also share a bit about what I’m working on over in boss-land where it’s relevant. This works best with a team that already has good judgment about priorities, because they’ll then use the meeting as the platform to ask for help or raise an impending issue.

      If you’re concerned about your team prioritizing incorrectly, that’s a whole separate thing and you won’t get much out of stand-ups until you’ve laid a foundation for what good prioritization looks like.

      1. No Sitting!*

        I have a person on my team who came from this kind of environment. But to hear him talk about it, that is where he got his tasks prioritized for the day from his leadership. I… don’t want to prioritize my employee’s tasks every day. And sounds like that isn’t the goal of a stand-up ideally.

        But I’m finding that he doesn’t have the skills to do it himself and I thought have the same meetings (though less frequently) might bridge that gap while he learns more about our norms/cycles of work (he’s only been here 4 months)

        I’m not attempting to fix one person’s issue with these. I do think the rest of my team could benefit as well. I need to consider other options though.

        1. NW Mossy*

          Yeah, I don’t think his previous leadership was doing stand-ups right if his reporting of it is accurate. They’re supposed to be for the team to drive the discussion, not the boss.

          Sounds like you probably need a hybrid approach here – stand-ups plus some targeted 1-on-1 coaching with your newer employee. It would likely help him to explicitly walk him through the process of how to prioritize and what factors you want him to consider when evaluating his workload, because you probably weight those factors differently than his previous role. A very direct 30-minute conversation will help him skip the trial-and-error phase, as well as help you see how quickly he can incorporate direct feedback.

        2. M*

          Just throwing in a stand-up meeting that doesn’t fit the needs of most of your team isn’t going to help the one employee learn to self-prioritise, and it’s wasting everyone else’s time in the process unless there’s an actual need they’re going to fill. It sounds like you have an employee who’s used to an environment without a lot of autonomy, and who needs to adjust to an environment with more autonomy. That’s a 1-on-1 coaching issue, where he needs to be given tools and guidance to learn to prioritise himself, not given a crutch to hold out for once a week.

          1. M*

            (This is one of the more irritating features of management fads like stand-up meetings. There *are* real reasons to do them, in specific circumstances where management has certain goals. But they’re not a panacea that lets you avoid doing actual dynamic management, they’re just one (rather limited) tool.

            If your team needs to coordinate regularly, and is blowing out the meetings you use to do that, try a stand-up. Don’t try a stand-up because one person can’t prioritise their own workflow.

    11. EGA*

      I was on a team that was starting a new, high pressure project where the team was made up of individuals across two organizations. We set daily end of day stand-ups (15 minutes max) which was actually super helpful for keeping people on the same page, easy scheduling, and often having access to higher-ups who were otherwise hard to get in touch with. I can’t imagine having these the whole length of the project, but first the first 3 months, it was helpful to have a daily touch point and a great form of accountability.

    12. AndersonDarling*

      I left a job where they started doing stand up meetings. They were a symptom of an overall dysfunctional department where they were trying any trendy management method they heard. It was a bad idea because everyone worked independently, so there was no reason to take 30 minutes every day to say what you were working on. It just turned into half the team trying to one-up everyone on how important or difficult their projects were, and the other half just saying 5 words so the meeting could be done faster.

      1. Andytron*

        Ugh, I had this problem. I actually love stand-ups when they are used appropriately (see the examples in other comments above), but when it’s just a shiny new thing management heard about it’s a disaster. Also see Agile approaches being forced on workflows that are not meant for Agile, something that would be obvious if they read the intro to any actual book about Agile.

    13. Person from the Resume*

      Do you specifically mean an agile daily scrum? A daily scrum is supposed to less than 15 minutes and each person on the scrum team has to answer the three questions.
      – What have you completed since the last meeting?
      – What do you plan to complete by the next meeting?
      – What is getting in your way?
      Anything more that those details (like how to resolve what is getting in your way) is supposed to be discussed in another meeting with only the necessary people and not everyone.

      I concerned that you are just talking about holding a meeting while standing up and you don’t have much of a plan.

      The military has for a very long time held meetings called (daily or weekly) stand-ups which in my experience were not held standing up but was a status update from the leadership of each of the sections of the unit.

      1. Colette*

        Yes, I run three of those a day. They’re usually closer to 3 or 4 minutes, and are strictly focused on the tasks we’ve committed to doing in our current sprint. (People can choose to sit if they want; most people stand.)

    14. SomebodyElse*

      I like how my boss runs his leadership meetings. Essentially everyone gets 3 bullets to tell the team what their priorities are (we do ours weekly), and anyone can nominate something for the real time agenda that we talk about as a group.

      The top 3 is meant to be a quick update without detail

      No Sitting: “My top three are closing out the month, team performance appraisals, and focusing on Milestone 3 of my paper clip sorting project”
      SomebodyElse: “My top 3 are recruiting for my 2 open positions, the automated grouse grooming patch release, and requirments gathering for my binder clip sorting project. Can we add the paper clip project to the real time agenda, between that my binder clip project and Fergus’ thumbtack project, we might be able to collaborate”

      Real Time Agenda items should be things that are affect multiple people/functions or that the team should be aware of.

      Otherwise as the manager you need to set the priorities for the team and in some cases multiple members will have inputs but not necessarily others. So focus in these meetings on the overall priorities and less on the individual priorities if your team is cross functional/silo’d.

    15. Lora*

      I have only seen these work really well in manufacturing. Which is what Toyota originally intended them for, and they are wonderful for this purpose. It was basically 20 minutes at each shift change, where everyone huddles around the task list, task schedules, and the floor supervisors lead the “here’s what needs done, here’s what was done already and who did it, here’s who will be picking up, do each of you have enough resources to do these things or do you need something, [group] has two people out sick so can someone please volunteer to help them?” agenda. But it’s all over quickly and it’s pretty efficient and everyone is clear and accountable to the other people.

      When I’ve seen it done anywhere OTHER than manufacturing shift changes, it is a friggin horrorshow. Either the person setting the schedule a bad time (see: Maker’s Schedule, Manager’s Schedule), or the meeting isn’t tightly controlled and turns into a multiple-hours-long complaint-airing finger-pointing sh!tshow, or it’s just not organized and takes too long.

      1. Richard Hershberger*

        If you have a field where the workers show up not knowing what they will do that day, then yes, of course you need some way to tell them, and if groups of workers are going to be doing the same thing that day, telling them in a group makes sense. This is not my experience with daily meetings.

        Many many years ago I worked in a Walmart. There was a daily meeting first thing in the morning. Ostensibly it was to disseminate information. This clearly was not serious, as there were no equivalent meetings for later shifts. Its real purpose as a pep rally, complete with the “Walmart cheer.” In practice there were the handful of people who buy into that, and a large mass of people who recognized this as ridiculous and insulting and did the absolute minimum until we were allowed to actually start getting something useful done.

      2. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        Yeah to wherever you have shifts (hospital, drilling rig, ship, security, factory etc.) – people coming on shift do not know what changed between their end of shift and now. In an office, most work is still in the shape you left it; in a shift organization, not so much.

    16. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      OldJob did those when I first started there, except they called them “huddles”. They were very effective until the team grew in size, and we got a couple of new teammates who LOVED to hear the sound of their own voice. The standups grew from 15 minutes to 50 and that was the end of our standups. At the time when they still worked well for us, we’d all take turns saying briefly what we worked on yesterday, what we planned on working on today, and whether we had any questions for the team or needed anyone on the team’s help. That would ensure that no two people are accidentally working on the same thing or undoing each other’s work, and that people get help and suggestions when they need it. This was before slack and group chats so was probably a more needed tool then than it is now. That was also before offshore and remote work, and at a company where everyone worked at the same location, which again was more conducive to a good standup than my current workplace would be, for example.

    17. Newton Geiszler*

      We do a daily stand-up modeled after agile. This works really well for us because even though we work independently, all of our work depends on the progress of other people in the team, so I can plan better knowing that a coworker is about to pass something to me. If we weren’t essentially working in an assembly line, I wouldn’t want to do them!

      The rules we stick to are along these lines:
      -Same time every day (for our work, it makes sense to do this at the end of the day)
      -Allowing people to skip if they’re in the middle of a meeting/phone call/etc but making sure to catch up with them once they’re available
      -Having a list of tasks/projects easily visible or accessible (we have a giant white board where we write our initials next to the projects we’re currently working on)
      -Keep it short! (10 minutes MAX) If someone is rambling about something that doesn’t affect most of the team, it’s okay to cut them off and pick it up with them individually after the meeting.
      -When our manager wants us to re-prioritize, he puts us into groups to talk to after stand-up. (Ie, “llama teapot team, we’re going to redistribute projects. Please stay for a minute.”)
      -Have some chairs around! Even though the meetings are really short and we tend to literally stand-up, sometimes people just need to sit.

    18. RecoveringSWO*

      My most toxic job had 2 daily stand-up meetings in the morning and at the end of the day. The team members had separate responsibilities and the nature of the work meant that it was common to have fires to put out that 1) stopped other preplanned work and 2) kept you working late. Unfortunately, the boss waited until the last team member was done for the day to have the end of day stand up meeting. So you went into the end of day meeting either stressed from putting out a fire or twiddling your thumbs waiting (jobs didn’t overlap enough to be actually helpful with others’ fires).
      My next job had a morning stand up and while it wasn’t the most efficient use of time, it felt much better. Other’s comments on using tracking systems and ensuring that one party isn’t monopolizing the meeting time are on point. I would try to avoid daily stand ups, because there will be lots of lost time (especially on particular days when there’s nothing important to discuss). But if you have to schedule them, I suggest the morning when it’s least likely to interrupt workflow.

    19. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’m now having flashbacks to when I worked for a large bank, and we had scripted daily stand-up meetings. Our manager would print out the daily meeting script (2 sided 8×11 page) and read it to us. It was like being back in middle school and having the teacher read the announcements. (It included, like, little facts about the bank, things about bank-wide initiatives and such, and was not customized to the actual group I was working with. I can’t remember if it was bank-wide or just for the lending part of the bank, but it certainly did not contain anything related to our jobs or even collections more generally.)

      We eventually decided to start playing dice games immediately after this “standing” meeting to make it more rewarding (we’d hold this meeting in a cubicle aisle, and we’d usually end up sitting in a combination of nearby chairs and on the floor). So, that’s the story of how when I worked in mortgage foreclosure, I got to spend some time every day playing dice-based games usually associated with gambling as part of a meeting. (We’d play until somebody “won” and then all go back to work.)

      So…don’t do that, because every part of that was pretty terrible?

      1. Richard Hershberger*

        This is a classic example of why information-dissemination meetings are terrible. Hand me that script and I can read it in two minutes, if I go slowly. That it was full of irrelevant filler makes it even worse.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          Last week I had to go to a meeting at my child’s school that could have been an email. It involved dragging three children out in the car after dark, not to mention having to have dinner early, and when it was all wrapped up within twenty minutes with no questions I could have screamed.

          If it isn’t collaborative, it doesn’t need to be a meeting.

    20. Junior Dev*

      I would not make people physically stand up—others have explained how “limit the time of the meeting to how long people feel comfortable standing” discriminates against people with chronic pain or other disabilities.

      I would provide a template that ensures people give enough info but do not ramble on. Two stand up failure modes I have seen are “people ramble forever about stuff that no one else cares about” and “people just fire off the Jira ticket ID in a circle, which is totally uninformative.” Maybe a couple questions like: “what are you working on today, and is there anything you might want to discuss with your coworkers on that work?”

      I would add other means besides stand up to address the siloing. We have this on my team now and the weekly meetings we have that are similar to standup but longer do not solve it. I would 1) ask people to write documentation (can frame it as “if you had to take a month off work, would people be able to figure out what to do to continue your job?”) 2) shadow each other/pair program in some way, 3) give them extra time to do the above things. If people are siloed it is probably because they don’t have time to teach each other about their work and you need to actively address that problem—maybe ask, “what can I do to support you or take things off your plate as you work on this?”

    21. Lemon Squeezy*

      I’m in tech. We have a daily standup, typically around five minutes. Essentially what I did yesterday + what I am doing today + any roadblocks and calling out if I’ll need to speak with someone after the meeting/ask for help on a subject.

      We also have a weekly backlog grooming/prioritization meeting. This is a good time to ask what needs to be placed in higher priority, and explain your thinking in order to get everyone on the same page and beginning to synchronize.

      1. Chauncy Gardner*

        With one of my accounting teams we did a daily standup during the monthly close process, If anyone needed to sit, we did it around their cube. It lasted 5-10 minutes, just to ensure everyone was coordinated. It worked really well.

    22. Half-Caf Latte*

      I have two thoughts:

      1) I’d be annoyed AF if I had to (literally or figuratively) stand around listening to other people figure out their priorities when my work was not related/impacted. (assuming that’s what you mean by silo’d).

      2) What is your goal in getting them to interact more? Seems like maybe it’s “because they should” or “because they don’t now”. What will it accomplish?

    23. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’ve done daily and MWF standups, and it really depends on the work your team is doing and what pace it’s happening at. Standup format is designed for small teams and fast updates. Essentially a place to hand off projects to the next step in the work, identify roadblocks for later discussion, flag questions for product owners/stakeholders, keep stakeholders updated on status, and let PMO know if you need more work for the day. (All that is accomplished with the what I did yesterday, what I’m doing today, roadblocks/questions format). If you’re working on a project where a lot of work happens in a short amount of time, these regular meetings are great to make sure everyone knows where all the pieces are and if anything’s falling behind.

      They should happen in the morning, last no more than 15 minutes, and should not be a place for extended discussion of any of the issues that pop up. That should happen between concerned parties “offline”. Typically the project manager in my team reserves the room for the whole half hour, stand up ends in 10 minutes, and anyone who needs to stick around to hash things out uses the room for the last 20 minutes.

      And we have people in ours who aren’t able to stand so they sit. The format is designed to keep people focused not cause pain. Like everything with agile, it should be adapted to best fit your team and the work you’re doing.

    24. Windchime*

      I think we were probably doing them wrong, but I found them to be a huge waste of time. At first, we just all went around and said what we were working on (same thing as yesterday). Then when we got a new manager, stand-up was used as a way to put people on the spot and make them feel bad about not making progress on issues that they had no control over. I’m really, really glad that my current job doesn’t do daily huddles or stand-ups. Instead, we have a weekly 30 minute meeting with our BA/project manager and review our outstanding tickets. It seems to work well for us.

    25. pcake*

      I can’t begin to imagine why forcing people to stand through a meeting would help prioritize anything. And if management can’t control the length of the meetings, wouldn’t it be easier to just give everyone a limited amount of time to speak or a required format for reports?

      Btw, I have a long term ankle issue. Standing still for more than a couple minutes not only hurts but starts to unbalance me. No one ever notices except when I have to use stairs or stand still for more than two or three minutes, so this standing meeting thing would be a problem for me. But what about someone who’s just gotten over the flu or was up all night with food poisoning or a noisy neighbor or sick child? Making them stand seems pretty awful.

    26. fhqwhgads*

      In my experience stand-ups have very little to do with prioritization. Stand-ups are “what I did yesterday, what I’m going to do today, and any blockers”. Everyone speaks very briefly and the whole thing doesn’t take more than 15 minutes. I’ve worked places that did them daily and places that did them MWF. It does keep people in the loop about what others are doing, and allows people to connect to attempt to remove blockers from each other. But if you have prioritization issues, that a different kettle of fish probably suited to a different format.

    27. Kiwiii*

      We have MWF stand ups with only our team to discuss where we’re at. This is mostly to keep each other apprised of work we’re doing and the general mood of our different clients, and also to ask for advice or some hours from someone in person and for general updates from our manager. We have a M/TH stand up with my team and the two teams we were closely with, this is usually more about large scale projects and expectations, and loops my team into what the more technical team might be prioritizing and if we can expect work to come our way. None of the meetings are very long — the MWF usually go about 15-20 mins, the M/TH usually more like 30.

    29. Leela*

      Game studio did as follows:

      Here’s what got done yesterday, and I’ve passed it to (whoever in the circle takes your work once finished, if applicable).

      Here’s what I’m working on today

      Here’s what’s blocking me or what could potentially get in my way, does anyone have input on that (can someone take the extra load, can someone unblock whatever program issue is in my way, etc).

      I found it pretty effective!It was short, free of judgement, and we caught a lot of stuff with this format that we wouldn’t always have because if you say “how are things going?” everyone says “fine!” not realizing that you’re asking for details you can help them untangle. We also identified strong problem solvers this way, and who was good at mentoring

    30. CM*

      I think this kind of thing works well when everyone’s collaborating on the same project(s). In my case, we tried it and it was weird and boring and unfocused, because pretty much no one was working on the same thing.

      For a while, I tried a different thing where, just on Mondays, people were supposed to email our project management software with a message summarizing what they did last week and what their priorities were this week, just so we could all see how things were progressing and know ahead of time if someone was going to be unavailable certain days. I actually do think that was a good solution, but most of the team kept “forgetting” to do it, and chasing them around took more time than the standup meeting had. :(

    31. Chaordic One*

      They seem to work fine in my current job in a call center. They typically last only 5 minutes, and 7 would be long. I’ve never seen one last longer than 10. They only problem is that there are always a few people who get caught up in long-winded phone calls who can’t make them and my boss has to repeat what was discussed, but doing that is not usually a big deal.

    32. larelah*

      I manage part-timers who job share and I’m part-time as well so face to face meetings are hard with everyone.

      We have a page in one note that syncs and use the tags system in it to assign work to each other / prioritise it / leave “FYI” notes. so when people come in on their day they can click “find tags” on the page and there’s their list of things to do and priority levels, plus quick notes from me / copies of relevant emails so they can come in and hit the ground running. Since we’ve done that it’s been a huge help and takes very little time for all of us to keep up to date.

      even better – i’m a government department so need tech to be able to use on our (very locked down) IT system – this one does.

    33. Bemused*

      Most of the “stand-up” meetings I have attended have been jokes, but that is because they have been used for the wrong purposes. Managers and team leaders have used them for status updates and announcements as well as opportunities to discuss particular problems or to review team-related reporting documentation. At one standup, we watched as our supervisor reviewed a master project reporting list line by line, reading out the entries. We had no clue why, but probably no one wanted to interrupt because we wanted to get out of there as soon as possible. Unless all of the participants are working together on a project, it’s just another excuse for a meeting. At least the standups are supposed to be timeboxed, so I have an excuse to leave when a meeting starts to run over.

    34. COBOL Dinosaur*

      We do standup meetings but it’s part of following agile project management methodology. I am on 1 scrum team and on kanban team. They are each a different flavor of agile.

  2. Sunflower*

    Looking for advice on strategically searching for sales jobs.

    Using the terms ‘sales’ or ‘business development’ brings up a boat load of jobs and a lot of them aren’t what I’m looking for (like commission only). I’m specifically looking for a job that would be focused on meeting and pitches at client sites and external events meeting with clients. There’s just so much to wade through and there’s gotta be better search terms or ways to cut out a lot of the search results. I’ve mostly stuck to searching on Indeed and LinkedIn but if I’m missing other websites please share!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you looked into account management jobs by chance? Those are often sales jobs that you’re aiming for.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Definitely use the word Account.

        If you’re on LinkedIn, browse companies in your industry and see what job titles their sales people are called.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      account executive or client relationship manager are other titles that might drive the right results in your search

    3. Ranon*

      This is industry specific, but that sounds a lot like what I would call a “product rep” role in the building/ construction industry

      1. gsa*

        Yup to the “product rep” title.

        I work at a building supply store. We have a sales staff that ranges from a one person team to a team of six. The lead manages the team.

        Hard to break into…

    4. Jerry Smith*

      Account Executive, Account Manager, Strategic Development Manager and ones I’ve been seeing recently. I’ve noticed a trend where a lot of actual sales roles shy away from the word “sales”, oddly enough.

      1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        True! I’ve even seen postings for “Marketing Manager” that we’re really for a sales role. Do they think candidates are stupid?

    5. 3DogNight*

      Account Manager is what we call them in my role. It sounds like you’re looking to manage a specific set of accounts. The fully commission roles are going to be acquisition type roles, where you are cold calling/visiting, warm at best, but with a customer that isn’t buying from your company.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I love this thread.

        It’s finally solidified that previous roles have been titled improperly. And explains…a lot. Ah hindsight!

        Now I get it, when the toxic hell sold, the new owners were shocked at what we had lumped under “Customer Service Representative”, they were like “That’s account management, wtf.” [per my former colleagues who were talking to me.] Which included a huge pay bump because hello, it’s a different role all together and not generalized much at all.

      2. NW Mossy*

        This is fascinating to me, because in my world (employee benefits), an Account Manager or Relationship Manager is someone who provides ongoing service to a client that’s already sold. The distinction between the two is that the former is based in the home office and covering day-to-day support to the client’s HR staff, while the latter is in the field meeting with the clients on strategic issues. They’re both salaried roles, and the latter also has a bonus program based on how many clients they keep year to year.

        Those who do what Sunflower’s describing (on-site pitches of prospective clients) are called X Consultants, where X is the specific benefit they sell. That said, they’re also commission-driven – not 100% commission, but mostly.

        1. Fikly*

          I feel like this can be really industry or even company specific. At my company, sales is pitching a client and everything up until a contract is signed, and client success is managing the relationship with an existing client.

          Both are salaried.

      3. Hiding From My Boss*

        My company used to use Account Executive, now it’s Counselor or Consultant.

        Job titles on job search sites can be so lame and useless. Recently I used an off-the-wall search term that turned up all kinds of interesting jobs and I saw a pattern that told me part of the crummy job title/categories on the site were due to limitations in the site’s posting template.

    6. Adlib*

      We call them Client Liaisons or Business Development. You might try searching on those terms. (Internally, we call them “rainmakers”, but I feel like that’s pretty specific to my quirky company. I’ve never searched that term!)

    7. T. Boone Pickens*

      In the SaaS world it’s broken up by

      SDRs=Sales Development Reps they identify and qualify sales opps and kick them over to Account Executives who are responsible for closing the deals and managing the pipeline. In my experience it’s extremely difficult to join a new company as an A/E unless you’ve got kickass experience.

      SDRs are sometimes classified as BDRs or Business Development Reps.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Yup, same in my SaaS company. And then on the Customer Success side (my department), the Customer Success Managers (CSMs) handle the ongoing relationship with the client, including upsells and renewals. They aren’t on commission and it’s not heavily sales focused, but my department has a “negative churn” budget (customer churn is positive, adding product or increasing tier is negative – it’s a weird calculation) and the CSMs are a big part of making that happen.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Hm. I work for a big tech company and we do call this role Business Development. Sometimes the words Strategic Relationship Manager. Those are different from the inside sales roles and do exactly what you’re looking for.

  3. Lovecraft Beauty*

    What’s the best way to stay in touch with a previous employer, and your former coworkers there, especially if you’d strongly consider returning to work there eventually? I don’t want to be weird, but I was close with several coworkers at my previous employer, and I’d like to remain friendly with them and keep up on the goings-on. Complicating factor: I no longer live in the same region as the employer, although I visit frequently.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve found actually visiting when you’re in town to help. Also, just normally keeping in touch. You said you were close with several co-workers… keep being close. Text or email them or write them letters… or connect on social media. Do the things you would normally do with a long-distance friend.

      1. Mrs Peaches*

        Visiting can be great. Make plans for coffee or lunch with the people you were close with, and ask if it’s a good time to stop by the office and say hello to your other former coworkers. But for the love of everything, don’t just show up unannounced. My department has a former employee who does this occasionally and it is the most annoying thing (even for the people who liked him when he worked there).

      2. Ama*

        Yes, this happens occasionally at my office — people will drop by to go to lunch with someone (a few of our most recently departed coworkers ended up at offices in the same neighborhood), or because we’re a nonprofit, sometimes they drop by or volunteer to help when we’re having a public fundraiser.

        One of my current coworkers left for another job and came back a little over a year later, and she was one of the people who kept in touch and dropped by one of our fundraisers.

      3. Laura H.*

        Seconding the visiting! I work at a different location of the same company now, but I worked 4ish years at my prior location- you can’t not develop even the barest of relationships with everybody with that sort of time.

        I schedule lunch dates semi- regularly with a former coworker and occasionally will drop a decent sized bag of popcorn off at my old location when I pop in for a quick visit, as we always were appreciative of snackage.

        I’ll get a couple of smaller bags for my current location, as there are less people at it and it’s a less snacking group. It’s still appreciated.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We use Linkedin mostly. And my less social media colleagues use facebook or we exchange personal emails.

    4. wingmaster*

      LinkedIn and occasional texting.
      I find that Instagram is a good way to connect with my team too. We’ve been following each other through IG when I was at my former job, and it’s nice to see their stories at work or travel posts.

    5. Sharkey*

      If you weren’t Facebook friends before, I’d start there. Then a few times a year when you’re in town you can message or email and say something like, “I’m going to be in town next week – if you’re free Thursday night I’d love to grab a drink and catch up!” That way it’s all pretty low-pressure, but you’re leaving plenty of doors open for friendliness. :)

    6. Quickbeam*

      I know this is really old school but I send holiday cards (Christmas, Yule, Chanukah, Solstice…) annually to all my former managers and close colleagues. It allows me to keep in touch but not too much. Also, it gives me a current address if they have moved. Since I do it every year, I always come in under the forwarding period (US here).

      It seems to foster good will. And when I really needed references for my current job, it was a lifeline I would not have had otherwise. I also got my current job through a “Christmas card connection”.

    7. Quinalla*

      Text/email prior to coming in town and ask them to go to lunch. Email/Linkedin/text/whatever the occasional interesting industry or personal thing you see that you know they would like or have interest in (depending how close you are with people, the contact time on this will vary, but even once a year or once every couple of years can be fine for this). I’m honestly not that big into social media, but do use it some, but liking/replying/tagging to posts on whatever you are connected on can be a good low key way to stay in front of people. Reach out if you are going to an industry event/conference and see if they are going as well and make a plan to see each other there.

      Holiday cards as another said is not a bad idea, though I personally like to keep it to more neutral holidays like New Years. Also has the advantage of standing out from the still somewhat more crowded winter holiday card time.

    8. LizLemon*

      I still stay in touch with a handful of people at my old job. Usually once every 3-6 months I will send my favorite people a “catch up” email basically asking what’s new in their life, and sharing a bit going on with me (both personally and professionally). Then that results in a few email exchanges before it dies back down. And when I am nearby and have the time, which is about once or twice a year, I will stop by their work and have lunch with them.

  4. A Simple Narwhal*

    This feels like such a silly problem with a seemingly obvious solution, I’m just not quite sure how to approach.

    My team has a newish intern, and when he has questions or needs help with something he just walks up to my desk, puts his laptop down, and then starts asking his question. It’s not a big deal, but it’s kind of jarring, and he also has an uncanny talent for coming up to me when I’m eating something. In a perfect world I would love for him to either message me on our messenger before walking over (something like “hey can I ask you a question” or even just “do you have a sec”) or when he walks over to preface the question with a “is now a good time” or pretty much anything other than just plopping his computer next to me and diving right in. He can’t see me from his desk so it’s not a matter of him seeing that I’m not busy and walking over.

    This feels so silly, and if I’m truly in the middle of something that can’t be interrupted I will ask him to come back, there’s just something about it I find…intrusive? Irritating? I don’t want to discourage him from asking for help, and I’m worried that my annoyance might eventually show through, but at the same time it feels weird to essentially tell him to ask my permission to ask me a question? I’m not sure if this is just a me thing and I need to suck it up or if it’s worth saying something to him or mentioning it to my manager (who is overseeing the intern).

    ———————

    Some quick details – all of our interns are from a local college, internships are a required part of the curriculum and most of them complete at least 2-3 of them. For the role they fill on our team (which operates as a full time job, is paid, and lasts ~4 months) most interns are close to graduating, and this is almost never their first professional role. Our intern this time around is only a sophomore and this is his first time in an office. He’s smart and good at the work, but he’s definitely still learning the ropes of office behavior, and our manager has had to (gently) talk with him about some things he’s done before, so this isn’t a weird powerplay or him being intentionally rude, I think it’s just coming from inexperience.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I definitely think you can say something, nicely – he’s an intern, part of this experience is to help him learn professional norms! Just say “hey, Fergus, I wanted you to know, it can be a little jarring to be approached out of the blue – I would appreciate it if you shot me a quick message, or said “hey, is this a good time?” before you started in on your question. We’re always glad to help, but it gives me a second to get my bearings and focus on what you’re asking, or to let you know if this isn’t a good time. Thanks!” (modify as needed, of course)

      1. Pommette!*

        Great script. Saying something is useful for the OP in the short term, but it’s also really helpful for the intern in the long-run! You’re doing him a favor.

    2. Quill*

      I think you’re going to have to tell him “hey, can you shoot me an IM if you need to stop by for questions? I might be in a meeting or working on something time sensitive” because hints may just not work.

      1. Sunflower*

        Also understand that you’re not just doing yourself a favor here, you’re doing a favor for everyone he works with in the future. What you’re requesting is pretty in line with office norms and part of having an intern is showing them how things work in an office- think about it this way when you’re giving him guidance.

    3. Legally a Vacuum*

      Is there a reason you’ve not simply asked him to IM you before he stops by? You can wait until you answer his question, then mention that you would like him to change in the future. It doesn’t have to be a big “thing”, but the longer it goes the more awkward it is to just ask him to do it differently.

    4. Sabina*

      Just tell him! “Hey, would you mind messaging me before you come over to my desk with a question? That way I can break from what I’m doing and be able to give you my full attention. Thanks for understanding!”

    5. GeekBoi*

      As reiterated on this site countless times, TELL HIM! he is being extremely rude
      Tell him it is best that he IM you, or at least preface his issue with a question as to whether you are free to assist him
      Why should you feel “silly” when he is the one disturbing you at work?

      1. Alice*

        I think that OP should just be direct, with her own language, about what she would like him to do. But I don’t think see the described behavior as “extremely rude.” My colleagues sometimes come over and dive right in. If they do and it’s not a good time for me, I tell them.
        It would be rude is the intern kept doing this after OP explained what she wants him to do instead.

          1. valentine*

            It’s extremely rude that he interrupts, plops his laptop down, and dives in even if she’s eating. Visible does not equal available.

            1. Easily Amused*

              “Visible does not equal available” – love this! This notion is about 90% why open office spaces suck so bad.

    6. Jedi Squirrel*

      You answered your own question.

      “Eric, in the business world, it’s typical to message somebody with quick questions, or to ask if this is a good time for a longer question. I check my messages regularly, so feel free to just message me and either I can come to you or I’ll let you know to head on over.

      “If you are just walking by, you should always inquire if it’s a good time. Sometimes people are in the middle of a project that requires uninterrupted time, and it’s best just to ask.”

      By framing this as this is what is customary in the business world rather than how much it bugs you, it’s much less likely to offend him, and he’s much more likely to take it heart, both at your organization and in future internships and jobs.

      (My wording probably needs tweaked, but I’m sure others here can help with that.)

      1. Camellia*

        Came here to say this but you said it beautifully. And you can say ‘customary in the business world’ or ‘customary for this office’, whichever makes the most sense. For example, I always warn new hires that, at my current office, email is treated like IM. You are pretty much expected to notice and respond immediately. That is so different from most offices that I like to give them a heads up.

        1. Jedi Squirrel*

          That is very different from most offices, and you are doing these folks a tremendous favor by letting them know that. Cultural norms are not always obvious to the new folks!

      2. Quinalla*

        Yup, reword it in your own language, but this is spot on.

        And don’t feel bad in the slightest, while these conversations often are awkward to have, it is part of the internship experience to teach these things. Try to treat it as matter of fact as possible, just you informing them of one more thing they need to know like where the copier is or how to do their timesheet. And trust me, I have these conversations often with interns/co-ops, and it can feel really awkward, but if I approach it straightforwardly, it usually goes over fine and is never as big as I’ve built it up in my head.

      3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Yes, @A Simple Narwhal, please frame this as a general business norm. The previous commenters framed this as your personal preference, but I think it’s much more likely that the greater majority of office workers would prefer to have someone first ask, “Do you have a few minutes?”

      4. snoopythedog*

        Dropping in to give this wording a pat on the back.

        This is super common when working with interns/younger people.

        The key is to be consistent. Deliver the message scripted above and each time they forget to follow the steps your outlined, gently rebuff them and send them back. Something like “Eric, I’m just in the middle of something right now and I want to make sure I can fully attend to your question. Is this urgent or can it wait a few minutes? As a reminder, it’s best to message somebody to ask if it’s a good time to drop by ask a question.”
        ^repeat it even if the “middle of something” is eating your sandwich. Because you are still literally in the middle of something and he is still asking you to task switch without considering your schedule.

        I’ve literally sent interns out of my office repeatedly (but nicely) if they keep dropping by with their laptops for ‘a few questions’.

    7. Stymied Manager*

      I would just cheerfully tell him to please message you to check if it’s a good time rather than just walking over. Or a co-worker who hates being interrupted has 2 half hour sessions a day for her team to come ask her questions, she finds that works best

    8. Grace*

      I previously managed interns at my last job, and this behavior you are describing sounds very familiar to me!

      I think it is perfectly acceptable to tell this intern something along the lines of: “Hey intern, would you mind shooting me an IM to find out if I am available before coming over here with a question? Sometimes I’m in the middle of working on a project that requires 100% of my attention, and it would be helpful if I could reach a good stopping point first before we chat. Or if I’m eating, I’d rather finish up before you head this way.”

      You can also suggest he adopt this practice with ALL his coworkers, and let him know that is typically how the culture of your organization works. I would coach my interns on their workplace cultures from time to time, and most often they were very receptive to feedback and honestly just had no idea how they should behaving. You would be helping him out in the long run if you took a direct approach.

    9. Dragoning*

      It sounds like he’s missing the “Basic manners” part where you perform a verbal “knock” before launching into an entire conversation.

      I think it’s perfectly reasonable and not at all rude to say something like “Do you mind letting me know when you’re coming over to ask a question so I can have a moment to switch gears to help you better? Sometimes I can be pretty busy and focused on what I’m doing.”

    10. Susan K*

      I think you can definitely say something! Alison has a lot of posts about dealing with interns (with some good scripts that you can adapt to this situation), and the idea is usually that you approach the subject with the intern as, “Hey, here’s something you probably didn’t know about professional norms.” You can explain that in a lot of offices, people are often focused on something and would appreciate a heads up before someone comes over and starts asking questions.

    11. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      I think this is a great learning experience for him. “I appreciate that you’re following up when you have questions; Sometimes when you come in with a question I’m in the middle of something important. I’d appreciate if you could pause and ask if I’m available before you start in on the questions.” He’s an intern–his job is to learn, not just the tasks of the job, but also the norms of the working world

    12. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      It can be addressed at the moment of intrusion as well.

      “Fergus, I’m in the middle of something right now. I’ll help you shortly. Send me an IM when you get back to your desk, and I’ll reply when I’m ready to chat.”

      Rinse and repeat. (And maybe explain it more fully when he’s got his “appointment”.)

      No one gets to bring work stuff – especially their laptop — to my desk until I’m ready to make them some space physically and cognitively.

    13. Dumpster Fire*

      All of what others have said, as well as maybe:
      – If there’s something you need now (or ASAP), please IM me and I’ll let you as soon as I can see you.
      – Let’s have a standing meeting once per (day/week/whatever) so I can answer less urgent questions. (And then let that meeting be over, once you’ve answered those questions.) AND/OR
      – Compile those less urgent questions into one email or document so we can address them efficiently.

      1. snoopythedog*

        Oh, the compiling questions thing just reminded me….sometimes interns drop by with allll the questions because they aren’t used to thinking for themselves and problem solving in a work environment (which is also sometimes about knowing where/when they have the authority to make small decisions).

        Asking them to consolidate questions/hold off non-urgent questions for a standing appointment is a good first step that will get some of them to figure out how to answer the questions themselves. For others, you need to further prompt them to come to you not just with questions, but with their suggestion for a solution.

    14. Mama Bear*

      I agree that it’s best to tell him something. I have friends who always let their kids interrupt and they put everything down and I just think “your kid is going to be someone’s nightmare in the future.” Hi, Fergus.

      So tell him. If you don’t, then he’ll never know and he’ll keep doing it to everyone. You can also say, “I notice that you tend to come by at x time, which is usually when I grab my lunch. How about we schedule a meeting at y time instead?”

      Or ask him to come back in 10 minutes when you’re done eating or tell him when you’re in the middle of a task. “I can’t really talk now – I have a deliverable due in an hour. Is this a fire or can it wait?” You might also find out what it is and redirect him to another coworker or resource in the meantime. If he routinely asks things that could be an email, tell him. “This is something we could have done over Teams. Next time can you send me a message and I’ll come by if we need to talk about it?”

    15. Leisel*

      As others have already said, start by asking him to message you first if that’s common practice for your team.

      However, some people just seem to be dense and ignore social norms. Our office is small and it’s pretty standard that we communicate in person instead of over email when we’re physically in the office. Because of the setup of my shared office, I sit with my back to the door (which I HATE). The door is open 90% of the time, so people will stop by and just start talking to the back of my head. My thought gets interrupted, then I have to turn around and ask them to stop and start over because I didn’t catch half of it. Even after asking them to knock and let me acknowledge them first, some of them still do it! Then they’ll say, “Oh, sorry, I forgot.” -_-

      If he continues to do it, I think it’s okay to show some of your annoyance. Don’t be a jerk, but tell him that type of behavior is rude. It’s rude to start talking at someone without knowing you have their attention, even outside of the workplace! The plopping down of the laptop uninvited is especially off-putting. Seems like he’s a little clueless.

    16. Caroline Bowman*

      next time he does it, just say ”oh hi! I’m just eating. Please for the future can you just ping me a message to make sure I’m not in the middle of something? I’d love to help you, so don’t be shy, but it’s best to just give me a heads-up. thanks!”.

    17. Cinnamon*

      My department has had this issue also and unfortunately some just don’t learn. We’ve told them to call/message first and then even started having set meetings to discuss bits of projects at once but we still get the intern who walks in and stands around waiting for us to be free.

    18. Attack007*

      Say something to him. He probably has no idea that what he is doing is annoying. Next time he does it, talk to him about it. You can say something like, X as you know I am happy to help you and answer your questions, but sometimes I am in the middle of something and you walking up takes me out of my focus. Going forward can you please ping me and say you have a question and ask if this is a good time to talk or if you do come by my desk please do not just launch into your question, please ask first if this is a good time. He is an intern, and a young one, you are doing him and all his future employers and colleagues a favor by talking to him about this now.

    19. Orange You Glad*

      I work with a lot of students in a similar program and they all do some version of this in the beginning of their tenure (for us it’s a 6 month full time paid position). I usually shut it down in the moment if it’s an inconvenient time, ex: “Ok we can discuss this when I’ve finished my lunch”, “I’m busy right now, can you come back in 10 mins?”

      If they are serial interrupters I’ll make a point to explain, for me, it’s easier if they summarize all their questions and pick a time to meet with me and go over everything at once. I would rather they take the time to problem solve before coming to me with questions.

    20. Enginear*

      Reminds me of our new hires fresh out of school who just walk up to my cubicle and stand there staring at me when they want to ask me a question. No greeting or anything; they just stand there waiting for me to acknowledge them. I sometimes pretend I don’t see them and see how long they awkwardly stand there lol

      1. valentine*

        I sometimes pretend I don’t see them and see how long they awkwardly stand there lol
        This just reinforces they’re right to wait.

      2. KoiFeeder*

        Please don’t do that. Awkwardly lurking is one of my bad habits and I will just either stand there staring at you forever or slink off because I’m now terrified that you’re ignoring me because you’re busy/angry with me and I’ll be punished for interrupting.

    21. Mr. Shark*

      This is not silly. You are focused on your job and interruptions can be intrusive and throw you off your focus.
      I would definitely politely say, “Can you please IM me before you come in for any questions? Sometimes I am in the middle of something and it isn’t the best time for me to jump to another subject and answer questions, though I am always willing to help you when needed.”

      And even if they can’t IM you before, you can say, “It’s generally a good policy to ask someone if they have a few minutes to answer a question, rather than just put your laptop on their desk and start asking questions immediately. It makes the person feel like you are barging into their work space when you do that. Sometimes they are in the middle of something and need to focus in order to complete the task.”

    22. Senor Montoya*

      Just tell him exactly what you want him to do: In a perfect world I would love for him to either message me on our messenger before walking over (something like “hey can I ask you a question” or even just “do you have a sec”) or when he walks over to preface the question with a “is now a good time” or pretty much anything other than just plopping his computer next to me and diving right in.

      If you don’t tell him, he doesn’t know.

    23. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Just throwing out another version of wording, in case it feels like a good fit. I would probably say something like “hey, for future, can you ping me before walking over?” + possibly an explanation like “When you knock me out of a train of thought, it’s hard to pick back up again later.”

    25. Koala dreams*

      It sounds like you have identified a great opportunity to teach this intern an important office norm. That’s not silly, that’s one of the purposes of an internship. The interns can learn things from their co-workers that never would have come up in school.

    26. Hiding From My Boss*

      This isn’t a silly little thing. Coming by for a quick question is one thing, bringing over a laptop and settling in for what amounts to an impromptu meeting isn’t a good habit for him to develop. This is part of what he needs to learn; you’re right on the money there. That being the case, you don’t need to tiptoe around him. It’s okay to tell him “Not right now” and to make it clear that some things will be done on your schedule and convenience, not his–that can be done without being harsh, but being definite.

  5. Just Need Advice*

    So I was hired to be the Communications and Government Relations Specialist of, lets say, an association that supports teapot makers. The teapot makers in my state are having a difficult time financially due to some challenging circumstances. We were supposed to hire a part-time admin position late last year to help or Director of Administrative Services with data entry. Unfortunately when the teapot makers are not doing well, we aren’t either so no one was ever hired for the position. I was told in December that everyone would be helping with some of the admin work starting in the New Year. I am now doing all of the admin work that was intended for the part-time position, which was supposed to be a 20 hour/week job. The reason I keep getting assigned all of this work is because I am “so much faster” at it than the rest of my coworkers. Which is true, I am able to do data entry in a fraction of the time as the Director of Administrative Services. My coworker, who was the Director of Public Affairs, also received a promotion and is now no longer doing communications work for the association anymore.

    So now I am doing my job as Communications and Government Relations Specialist, a part-time administrative position, and all of the communications work that was previously split between my coworker and I (which by the way I did not get a promotion or raise for doing any of this additional work). To say that I am drowning would be an understatement at this point. I have started putting post-its with my to do lists everywhere in my office so my boss sees just how much work I have been assigned and that has helped some. But I keep getting assigned more admin work because I am faster than everyone else at it. It has gotten to the point that I am considering messing it up and taking longer intentionally so that people stop assigning me admin work.

    Does anyone have advice? Yes, I know I should look for another job and I am, but advice outside of that.

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      Have you told your boss that you need to let some tasks go because of what’s being piled on? Like, “you’ve asked me to do XYZ, you need to know that the trade-off is me no longer able to do ABC, how do you want me to prioritize?”

      1. Holy Moley*

        +1 for this. Although I will warn you when I tried this I got the same response of “you make it look easy” versus actually helping me with being overwhelmed. I had to add “If Im going to prioritize ABC, I need you to find someone else to work on XYZ some of the time.”

      2. Just Need Advice*

        I have tried. But I am very much of the personality that I need to have an empty inbox by the end of the work day. That is just who I am and I hate leaving things for after a weekend and such. And something that I did not explain is that there are only 7 people in the office who all do pretty specialized things so there is only so much I can reassign, especially because everyone else is busy.

        1. Holy Moley*

          So having been in this situation I understand your frustration. You really have two options, wait and see if things will improve and they hire the part timer (or can they hire an intern?) or you can decide if you want to stay. For me, I chose to leave but my job was underpaying me for my work so it was an easier decision.

          1. Viette*

            Having been in this situation as well, I recommend making a timeline for when you would start job searching if nothing changes, and by what date you ideally will have moved on. The likelihood is that nothing is going to change quickly enough to prevent you from quitting, and it’s good to start applying before you’re burnt out.

            1. valentine*

              I know I should look for another job and I am
              This seems like an overreaction.

              The passive-aggressive Post-Its might just make it seem like you’re having memory issues. You need to throw a wrench in the works.

              I need to have an empty inbox by the end of the work day.
              If you’re sure you can’t do otherwise, you need a job that allows this without overwork. Have you spoken to a counselor about this? Because it’s worth trying to change. What happens if you only do a reasonable amount in a day/week, if you only work 40-45 hours? Are you anxious about what’s left? Are there really no tasks that take longer than a day?

              If they wanted to promote you, they could do so at any time, so proceed as though the promotion is both carrot and stick. In fact, there’s no sense promoting you when they’ve decided to stick you with the admin stuff and, if anything, depending on whether anyone else can do your main job, it’s possible they would demote you to data entry and reassign the other stuff. (I don’t see why they don’t hire for the data entry. I would love a data entry-only job.) I think what you really want is to focus on your original job and to work a reasonable amount of hours (40), not to drown while promoted with a raise and spend your extra money on the extra healthcare. So. List out the jobs, prioritizing the main one, then the previously shared one, then the admin stuff, do them in that order, and let your boss know what you’ll be completing weekly or so (versus what won’t get done).

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          When your 8 hours are up and you’re itching to clean out you inbox, please revisit this page and reread your examples of management mistreating you. I’m sorry that management is taking advantage of your work ethic and it sucks that you have to deal with the uncomfortable emotions of standing up for yourself. I know I hate that feeling!

          Also, when you hand in your resignation, you don’t have to tell the boss where you’re working next or sit around for a verbal lashing ;)

        3. The Engineer*

          Add a second inbox for the extra stuff. That way at the end of the day you have an empty one (your job) and one that is not (but not your job). If you don’t let something slide all of it will become your job.

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            +10 to this. I was deeply overwhelmed at my last job, and I hate leaving things for tomorrow. I learned to care less, and I learned to leave things for tomorrow. I also hated what it was doing to my work ethic and honestly, that was a better push to get out than just being deeply overwhelmed was.

            You can’t solve your employer’s structural problems with your fragile human self. OP, take care of yourself first, YOUR work second, and your lumped-on extra duties third or fourth. Until it starts to hurt them more than it’s hurting you, they will not consider this a problem worth fixing.

        4. Seeking Second Childhood*

          One way to change your thinking that might help: When the manager picks XYZ to be dealt with later — that is no longer in your inbox! It is now in a category of having been tabled for later.

          1. snoopythedog*

            I second this.

            If you need a clean inbox, start a folder for the important but non-urgent and not your priority items that you get sent. Have a few spare minutes? Great, then you can deal with them. Time to go home and you haven’t touched the second inbox, too bad your main inbox is done and you can have a discussion with your manager about the outstanding but extra items later.

            If you keep making this not your managers problem…they aren’t going to be motivated to solve it.

        5. M*

          Start turning back tasks immediately.

          “Hi Jane,
          I’d be happy to help with the data entry for the teapot spout specialists list, but I won’t have time this week. Can it wait until [date]? Otherwise, I think you’ll need to find someone else for this one.”

          Doing this is going to require setting clear plans for your regular work, in advance, and being clear about the priority level of each task. Once you’ve done that, if you’ve got time to help someone, sure, do that, but if you can’t stand leaving a task in your inbox *stop putting tasks you don’t have time to do in your inbox*.

          The good news is, once you get into a clear pattern of it, people will stop treating you as the easy go-to for everything that needs a fast turn-around. It sounds like right now you’re doing unpaid overtime and putting admin work ahead of your own tasks, which *of course* makes you the fastest person available. Once you start giving people realistic estimates of where something fits in your priority order and how much else you need to do first, they’ll likely quickly find that it’s not so big a deal if someone slightly less fast at typing does some of the data entry.

    2. Chronic Overthinker*

      I would definitely talk to your boss about this! You should let them know that you are essentially doing the work of 2.5 people and either need staffing or need some sort of incentive to keep doing what you are doing. Also, if things are getting done in a timely manner, then they are wrongly assuming that you are able to task everything appropriately. I would let your boss know that if I do X and Y, A & B are going to miss deadlines.

      2. Just Need Advice*

        When I asked for a promotion in December my boss told me that I needed an attitude adjustment multiple times during the meeting because I “bristled” at a project last year. So there is really no way that I can complain about my workload because when I doing that last year cost me a promotion.

          1. Just Need Advice*

            I am a female that worked for the state government for a longtime and am now the youngest lobbyist in my state, so yes.

        2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

          Are you the one who “bristled” because your boss practically threw a binder at you? I assume you’ve explained that the “bristling” was an involuntary reaction to being startled by him throwing a file. Sorry you work for such an a-hat. I do think it’s possible to name the need to prioritize and to back-burner the lower priorities. When the response to that is just “Do it all,” I think Alison has said something before like, “My plan is to prioritize A, C, and D, and to back-burner B until we have our headcount back up (or whatever). Let me know if you’d like me to back-burner something else instead.” And then just stop doing more thank you can handle in an 8-hour day. Hope you can get yourself out of there soon.

        3. Alternative Person*

          If your boss isn’t giving you a promotion because you ‘bristled’ at a project, I would be inclined to say your boss isn’t planning on giving you one at all.

          Granted, I don’t know the full context of the ‘bristling’ but I would guess it was a fair reaction to being under an excess of pressure and possibly being expected to shoulder an unfair burden. If that is the case, then you might want to start looking at your options, because I don’t think your workplace is going to get better.

          1. Just Need Advice*

            I have commented on it in previous posts in weeks past. My boss threw a box of notes from our board retreat in my office one day and told me to write a report to the board. The meeting happened a month before I was hired and I was given little detail. Just basic outline notes. So I told him I didn’t feel comfortable writing the report. I ended up doing it anyway, but still.

    3. Annony*

      One way you can make it take longer without feeling like you are slacking is to push it to the end of the day. Prioritize your other work. Admin stuff gets done from 4-5. Anything left over gets done at 4 the next day. If they need it faster, they can reassign it to someone with more time.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        This is a good plan but I would also encourage pushing back on the “but you are so much faster” with a “With X and Y on my plate now I won’t be able to take on the admin work for Department A any longer – here are my notes on what needs to happen for that area”

      2. Just Need Advice*

        Unfortunately the data entry stuff is pretty pressing at the moment because the Director of Administrative Services let it pile up since about August (she has been incredibly busy too).

        1. Tedious Cat*

          Oh, no. I don’t think this situation is fixable. Best of luck in your job search and I hope you can soon come back and let us know about the tantrum your boss threw when you gave notice.

            1. Just Need Advice*

              Quick side story: The last person who quit worked from home in a different city. She came down one day to put in her notice in-person. My boss was out “dealing with a couch delivery” that day. She called him and asked if he was coming back. He said to just say it. She put in her notice, she was going to work for our biggest teapot maker. He starts swearing and yelling at her. He then calls our Board President who works for our biggest teapot maker and tells him. Keep in mind that the person who currently has the position she was taking had not been let go yet which she told my boss. So now the board president knows and it starts spreading around the company before the person had even been fired.

                1. Flyleaf*

                  When you do put in your notice, it should be immediate. Tell your boss at 5pm on Friday that you are done. He has shown that he is due no additional consideration.

              3. Autumnheart*

                Uh, so between that story and your situation, I think we can safely assume that your boss is trash, your employer is trash, and you should leave before your boss just makes you the admin.

                1. Flyleaf*

                  They have shown what they are made of, and it’s not good. As a result, you need to disengage and give up on caring about them. Do your work, but nothing extra. If work doesn’t get done, you shouldn’t care. Let the work fall on the ground, and don’t put in any effort to pick it up.

              4. The Engineer*

                Yeah, never mind on my suggestion above. Dis-functional workplace. This IS your job now. Time to look elsewhere. It appears that giving notice would be a bad decision based on your bosses history.

    4. Viette*

      “But I keep getting assigned more admin work because I am faster than everyone else at it. It has gotten to the point that I am considering messing it up and taking longer intentionally so that people stop assigning me admin work.”

      Don’t mess up admin work, just… don’t do so much of it. Yeah, do it slower. Do your actual job instead. De-prioritize data entry until someone else does it.

      I learned a long time ago that not everyone who wants something from me gets to have it. You *can*, but that doesn’t mean you should. You’re falling into a trap, whereby you think that anyone who wants something from you that you physically can do, you must do. But look at your situation: you describe yourself as “drowning”. You’re busting your ass and entirely miserable. You’re doing it because you’re good enough to pull it off in the short term, but that’s very short-sighted and pretends that your health and function at work isn’t even a factor. It *is* a factor. You are going to burn out and quit. You’re participating in and executing a plan which is not going to have a good long-term outcome.

      Stop! Stop doing all the admin work faster than everyone else and start doing your own job first, always! Start prioritizing your mental health. Sit down with a close friend or therapist and pick apart what you must do and what you simply can do. Say “no, I have to do [actual job working]” to things. This is potentially going to require a lot from you emotionally. It may be a change in who you are at work (do you love to be good at things? do you feel you owe your talents to your coworkers and bosses?), but you have to make other people do some of the admin work that you *could* do. No one else is going to tell you to stop.

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        +1! I had a job that involved some admin/data entry work and a blew through it at a fast pace. After a few months, I started getting headaches from the screen jumping so quickly and my eyes moving too quickly between side by side documents. I had to slow down and realized that I should have paced myself from the start. You shouldn’t prioritize doing the admin work because it’s preventing you from the work you want to do, are paid to do, and want experience in for when you leave this job. But even if you feel an obligation to help, please slow it down to prevent burn out!

        1. Jaid*

          Carpel tunnel, man.

          I have data entry to do when I don’t have my own work available and I deliberately do it slowly. 1. It’s not my real work and 2. it’s not worth aggravating my wrists and hands over.

      2. Mimi*

        Yes, this. From your other comments it sounds like this situation is awful, but by doing all the work that gets dumped on you, you’re enabling them giving you too much work to do, because you’re the person dealing with most of the inconvenience of not having a dedicated person to do this work.

        Honestly, I see three options here:
        1) You keep doing what you’re doing until they drive you into the ground, and you have to stop working at this job for the sake of your mental and/or physical health.
        2) You find another job and quit.
        3) You change your behavior in a way so that they can no longer keep you in this untenable situation. From what you’ve said, it’s possible that this will cost you professionally, but it seems to me that it’s the only way you’ll be able to stay at this job for any length of time, if such a way exists. Worst case you’ll need to look for a new job, but you’ll probably have time to do it on your own schedule.

        There’s an outside possibility of 4) This situation stops being untenable for you without you forcing the change, but at this point it seems pretty unlikely.

    5. Caroline Bowman*

      this unfortunately is where ”invisible” work (often done by women… not always, but often) is under-valued and, well, invisible. It being done well renders it invisible, things just run nicely, so it’s kind of an obvious pitfall.

      You need to sit down with your boss and spell out that you are being given 20 hours extra each week, unpaid. It must end. if he balks, say that you will, just for a week, not do any of it and see how things are thereafter.

      1. Just Need Advice*

        That is very true. I shouldn’t have said that all of the admin work is on my plate. I would say 90% of it. The other 10% was distributed to the other females in the office. The only people that have not picked up any admin work is my boss, male, and my coworker, male and who is my boss’ best friend.

    6. Llellayena*

      “Yes, on an individual task I might be faster, but when I have 20 of these tasks to complete during the day, it will all get done faster if the work is spread around to a couple other people. If all of these tasks remain with me, I will be able to get X, Y and Z done within the deadline, but A, B and C will need to be pushed back. How do you want to distribute A, B and C for them to be complete in time?” Make sure X, Y and Z is what you can reasonably get done in a standard 40hr work week. Not sure how deadline oriented the tasks are so adjust the wording as needed to get that general point across. Once you convince your manager, you can start referring other people to them by saying “I’m afraid I won’t have time for that. Please talk to Boss about who should handle that this time.”

    7. Rex*

      Another thing to consider — is it possible to automate some of this data entry to reduce the workload? For example, if you’re taking membership info via one kind of form, are you manually entering it into the database? There might be a way to auto-populate and just do a quality check, which would be much faster.

    9. kittymommy*

      I hope you see this as I’m just seeing this at 23ish EST. I currently work in government (with politicians) and have worked (and currently work with) many of those who represent what the US calls lobbyists, which sounds like similar to what you d (obviously not knowing what country you are in). I’m also going to concentrate on strictly advice for managing your current work load/job situation:

      – create a spreadsheet/whatever to manage what is the most important tasks for your job(s). You have two jobs. You might not be paid for two, you might not be acknowledged for two, but you have two; the one you have a title for and the assistant for the title you have. It could be worse, you could be paid for the assistant and doing the higher level. What is the biggest issues for your paid job and what do you need to do as an assistant to accomplish that? Everything after those is secondary.

      – Possibly more important than the other – what tasks accomplish the end goal of your organization. Let’s say you are a lobbyist for a union representing line workers – look at the yearly goals/points of issue for the group/union – what in your job tasks works to advance those goals? Meeting representatives/senators that can advance legislation? Attending parties/ribbon cuttings/etc. for important local events? Chatting up and “commiserating” with assistants? Whatever advances the goals of your organization is your job and at the end of the day if you can point to that it really doesn’t matter what gets you there. The end goal is what will matter in this world (ie government and/or politics).
      –

    10. Hiding From My Boss*

      What’s happening to you sucks and your employer will continue to take advantage of you because now they see that they can do this to you. You might try “I did this part last time, so it’s John’s turn now while I do my Real Job” or the passive aggressive approach: simply DON’T get it all done. You can’t do the work of multiple people and remarks like “You’re so good at it!” and “You get so much done!” is just emotional blackmail and rationalizing, not to mention brushing off your needs as an employee for a reasonable workload.

      An additional burner about this is that your management, like so many others, thinks admin work is some kind of afterthought instead of a discipline in its own right.

  6. Imposter*

    I was shocked to receive a phone interview request from a reputable tech company in my city for an Operations Manager position. I remember applying and thinking it was a long shot because I only met some of the requirements listed in the job posting. I have received nothing but rejection lately for jobs I *am* qualified for, so this was a particular surprise.

    After I scheduled the phone interview, I read back through the posting and started feeling a little panicked. I’m starting to doubt my experience and qualifications for this position. All of my experience is in the event planning and nonprofit world, and I know nothing about “establishing production KPIs” or “Global Access Management Policies.” It didn’t help that I looked up individuals with similar titles at this organization and they all seem to come from a tech background.

    I know it’s just a phone call, but how to I prepare for this when I feel like I am severely underqualified?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Just know that sometimes things are super random and don’t make sense. Like you, I’ve been rejected by (or not even given a phone screen) for jobs I’m extremely qualified (and not “overqualified”) for, and then I’ve gotten interviews for things that I’m like “Really?” Just roll with it.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They have your resume and think you’re worth a sniff test! You are not that severely unqualified!

      Operation management is hard to fill and often flexible in who gets the job because it’s always going to be something you learn that’s job specific. Prove you’re fast at learning on your feet. They have to train you in their company SOP and procedurals anyways! You’ve got this

    3. Dragoning*

      “establishing production KPIs” is just a fancy way to say “Setting production goals and how to measure progress toward them.” I feel like event planning would be really helpful there, but maybe I’m wrong.

    4. Eba*

      You wouldn’t get an interview if you weren’t qualified. They have your resume– they’re interested! It doesn’t mean that you’re exactly like everyone else they’re interviewing, or guarantee you the job, but it means they’re interested, and you meet the qualifications they want.

    5. humans are weird*

      Think about all the things you’ve done in your work that have to do with organizing things, documenting things, measuring things, reporting on things, keeping track of projects with multiple parts, deciding who gets to see what information. That’s the “content” piece.

      Think about how you handle learning new software – whether it’s an online ordering/ticketing platform you may have used for events, or a project management software, or anything else you have experience with. Are you able to get up to speed fairly quickly and are you comfortable with a certain amount of “poking around” to learn things? Are you open to taking classes on things you may not currently know (like perhaps writing queries to get information about production at the new company)? That’s the “how” piece.

      I can’t say whether this position is actually a good fit for you, but there’s a lot there that legitimately might overlap. I recently helped a friend with a background in libraries and higher education, think through an interview process for a care coordinator position (for a niche program) at a medical practice. She got the job! There are so many skills that can go cross-industry if you allow yourself to think of them.

    6. Annony*

      It’s entirely possible that they specifically need someone with a different skill set than those already in similar positions at the organization. Maybe the panning part is the team weak spot.

    7. ST*

      KPI is just business speak that you’ll learn fast (setting goals and coming up with measurements to meet those goals). Global Access Management Policies sounds like the same thing.

      Try to look up all the jargon the posting mentions before the call and you should be fine!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is excellent advice as well.

        The jargon can be distressing to those who aren’t familiar with it.

        I had the most epic breakdown of my career when I took a job that I thought was over my head. Until I was there for long enough to sit down and LOOK at what looked daunting in the face. I was literally ready to pack my bags and leave the place. It turned out it was all simple but they used “fancy” words that were scary AF that I hadn’t seen before. So I was put on alert and then when they explained the process I was like “This is just a credit memo…” and “this just means they can charge us a penalty if we don’t mark boxes right. OH.”

        1. Imposter*

          I can so relate to this! I think the jargon is what is stressing me out – it’s so unfamiliar to me. :)

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I’ll just say that I’m a country bumpkin off the dirt streets for the most part and I’ve done ops management myself. Along with accounting. And other scary things that others are like “What do you even do and how do you do all of it at once [lol it’s not at once, duh]” “I just grab things as they’re tossed at me and figure out what to do.”

            As long as you’re okay with THAT mentality, precious little is unachievable [barring certification and licensing requirement stuffs].

          2. Working Mom*

            KPI = Key Performance Indicator. Just like everyone else said – fancy term for setting a process into place and having metrics in place to gauge how well that process is performing. Go through the job description and google any terms like that, the ones that seem foreign – chances are you know how to do them all (or at least know they are) but just don’t use that jargon. If in the interview you’re asked something that makes you panic – it’s OK to ask them to rephrase – something like, “That’s not terminology I’m familiar with – can you rephrase that?” or something along those lines.

            And PS – you are qualified and you deserve to be there!!

    8. Chronic Overthinker*

      They must think you have the basic skills necessary to do the job. Go for it and see what happens! Venturing into a new field can be interesting and lots of office manager procedures tend to be specific for the office and are learned on the job. Prove to them you are a quick study, independent thinker/researcher and you might be pleasantly surprised.

    9. Imposter*

      Thank you ALL for your kind and thoughtful replies. I did look up KPI’s and feel like I’m just used to referring to them as something different. At previous jobs, I have tracked and analyzed metrics related to customer satisfaction and feedback. At my current job, we help children and all of our metrics are related to # of children served (or how many grant dollars we receive!). I think I just need to figure out how to make it applicable in a general sense.

      I am definitely detail and goal oriented and love improving processes and identifying inefficiencies. I have some great examples I can use on how I improved processes at previous roles and in my current role. And yes, I think it’s possible my event planning experience may come in handy.

      Thank you again!

      1. AdminX*

        Not sure if this will fit but it’s been shown that generally men will see they fit 2-3 criteria and go ahead for it, while women if they miss 2-3 will skip or think they don’t have enough.

        You don’t know what they find most priority, you could be hitting the targets exactly what they need for now, knowing you can sharpen up the rest as you go!

        1. Djuna*

          This is so true, I recently refreshed my memory on our job descriptions. I looked at the one for my role and did that rapid blink thing because I had a moment of “If I saw this job posted somewhere, would I think I was qualified to do it?” and wasn’t sure of the answer.

          I have been in my role for 5 years, and my salary has doubled over that time. That would indicate that I’m doing my job pretty darn well. So it’s ridiculous that I had that rapid-blink moment, but it says so much about how women can second-guess ourselves on the regular.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        The job listing, did it say things like “required” in front of these things or is it just a bullet list of duties, etc?

        Because usually if something is a hard “must” they are labeled like that.

        Just like ours are always like “REQUIRED, Minimum 3 years experience with SOFTWARE” that’s a hard “don’t even look at me if you haven’t touched it and if it’s less than 3, most likely not going to hear from us but not necessarily a hard no for 2 years…] [some organizes are a HARD no for less of course but meh, always worth a shot IMO].

        They tried to “require” my position to have a certain payroll processing company experience. I was like I know who they are, I did a payroll once months ago but yeah, I have a lot to learn there. They didn’t even blink twice and was like “That’ll do pig, when can you start?!”

        Just some antidotes to hopefully ease your mind as well from a former imposter :) Which is why I keep coming back here to check on you.

      3. CM*

        I am currently hiring for a position where there are lots of transferable skills from other industries. I would expect a candidate from another industry to:
        – Understand the jargon by doing background reading and research; Google unfamiliar terms, look for online message board or resources from people with this type of job
        – Understand the company and its business model, and have an understanding of the industry as a whole. Again, research: delve into the company website, see who their competitors are, if you will be doing event planning see what kind of events they have and also what kind of events similar companies have
        – In their intro “why are you here” question, explain in a positive way why they are interested in working in this industry, especially if it is a shift for them (for example, “While my experience in nonprofits has been meaningful and has given me the chance to take on significant responsibility and leadership early in my career, I’m interested in this position because …”)
        – Throughout the interview, explain how they have handled situations in their past experience and how it would translate to this setting (“The equivalent of production KPIs in my previous job was keeping metrics related to funding and the number of people served. When I started, these metrics weren’t effective because … and I improved them by … resulting in …”

    10. Enginear*

      They called you because they feel like you’re a qualified candidate. Roll with it and see what happens. It’d be a different story if you lied that you had experience with KPIs and Global Access Management policies.

    11. MoinMoin*

      Depending on how the conversation goes, you may be able to slip in a question like, “I was pleasantly surprised to hear from you since I know I was missing *insert experience that ideally you don’t think is a dealbreaker and is obvious already to them that you’re missing.* Can you tell me a bit about the role in the context of what stood out on my resume that I might be a good fit?” Otherwise, try to pay attention to what aspects they ask about so you can flesh out responses on those tasks if you get asked to come in for an interview (I know it doesn’t help on the call, sorry). Good luck!

    12. Fikly*

      Sometimes there’s some magic must have that isn’t even listed in the job posting.

      I and two other people were hired into the same role at the same time. It turned out we all had experience working at crisis lines. After we started, it came out that specific experience was something my company was really looking for (that’s not the job, but they really wanted people who could deal with stressed out people in a crisis situation, so it’s not bad logic on their part) and this was not mentioned once in the job posting.

      So who knows, maybe something on your resume caught their attention, and they value it enough that they’re overlooking the things you don’t have.

      My team is hiring a ton, so I’m looking at a lot of applications, and the little test exercises we have the people who make it past the phone screen do. I really try to evaluate not just the mistakes people make, but what is trainable, versus what is not trainable (and what we should not have to train – I’m looking at you, reading comprehension). If some of the qualifications you lack are easily trainable, but what you do have is not, I would bump you up myself.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        Right — the position we’re looking for doesn’t mention Llama Wrangling Software, we always have to train folks in it, but a couple of candidates have that experience on their resumes, and one talked in the interview about how they used it to assess X and Y and make Z recommendations to their supervisor. We got so excited, for sure it bumped them ahead of other candidates who had all the required skills and experience but didn’t have *that*.

    13. Bubbles*

      Many times the job description doesn’t end up matching the role precisely. Maybe they have someone in place who is kickass at KPIs or Global Access Management Policies and really need someone more with your skill set. They figure you can learn those pieces on the job. Don’t sell yourself short!

    14. AVP*

      If you’ve done event planning on your own, you have established production KPIs! That’s just the tech term for deliverables, reporting, and anything measurable. Sometimes you have to tell the client what they should be looking for and how they know something is successful – that’s the establishing part. You can do this, sometimes the terminology or the measurements are new.

    15. Feliz*

      Lots of great advice already about skills transfer, jargon etc.

      I also think you’re allowed to own the fact that you might not have experience/skills in every single area they want – you don’t have to try to hide it.

      For my current role – manager of a technical team – I was absolutely up front with the recruiter and then the employer that I didn’t have everything that they wanted. I had a degree in that field, but hadn’t done technical work for many years. I’d been a manager, but of a production line and again it was many years previously. I actually brought it up in almost every conversation – I did not want a job where they thought I was a labelling expert or would solve every technical challenge before morning coffee. What I did have was skills and experience with was what they wanted – my business acumen, ability to commercialize ideas, talk huge customers through technical challenges etc.

      Good luck!

  7. Susan K*

    I’m on a team of 7, and we all used to eat lunch at our own desks, partly because we didn’t really have anywhere else to go.  A few months ago, though, we converted a storage room to a conference room, which is next door to our office area, and now, my team (including our manager) likes to eat lunch in there together.  They take turns announcing lunch each day, and when I don’t immediately get up from my desk to go with them, they often ask me directly, “Susan, are you going to come and eat with us?”

    The problem is that I really don’t want to eat lunch with them.  I prefer to eat my lunch about an hour later than they usually eat because I don’t snack at work so I like to space out my meals more evenly.  Also, they usually spend 45-60 minutes at lunch, mostly chatting after they finish eating.  I have a really heavy workload — more than the rest of them for reasons I won’t go into right now — and I would rather eat quickly at my desk and get back to work so I don’t have to stay too late.

    I used to decline most of the time, but I ate with them occasionally just so I wouldn’t look like I was antisocial.  But now it is starting to feel as though I am expected to be there every day.  My manager is often the one to ask me if I’m going to eat with them, which makes it hard to say no.  There is just one other person on the team who doesn’t always eat with them, and I’m starting to feel as though we’re on the outside of the main clique (extraverts vs. introverts).  I worry that not joining them for lunch could be detrimental to my job.

    What I came here to ask is:
    – Should I feel obligated to eat with them?  How often should I join them just to maintain a status as part of the team?
    – Any suggestions for how to get out of it?  I don’t have any of the usual excuses like wanting to run errands/read/listen to podcasts during lunch because it’s quite obvious that if I don’t join them, I’m just eating quickly at my desk.
    – Is there anything I can do to nudge them into going back to eating at our desks instead of making lunch a team activity?

    1. WorkingGirl*

      I don’t think you need to explain beyond that you’re quite busy so going to eat through lunch! That’s a valid response. But could you maybe plan to eat with them, say, once a week?

        1. valentine*

          If you really need an excuse, you also need a new job.

          Act casual. “No, thanks. It’s too early for me.” And take your full break. And work reasonable hours. If they won’t hire, they won’t hire. Is there no training or do you need resources you don’t have? Is there HR or someone who can help you with that? Can you suggest hiring temps?

          the work distribution is the bigger issue, which is why I didn’t go into it.
          This is the head of the time-wasting, scope-creeping, scapegoating, victim-blaming, snake, though. They know they sacrificed you for everyone else’s leisure and are perfectly happy about it, so I don’t think joining them will stop you being on the outside.

      2. Susan K*

        I guess it’s not so much that I need to give a reason for declining, but that if I don’t join them, I’m not part of the group. When I don’t go, I hear them chatting and laughing loudly (my fellow outsider and I have a running joke about the comedy club in the conference room) and I feel myself becoming more and more of an outsider. I don’t think they’ll be mad at me or anything if I don’t go, but by not being there for the daily social hour, I’m excluding myself from their little club.

        1. AdminX*

          Can you make it a 15 min break for yourself? Grab pretzels and water, do the social thing, then say “OK this has been fun but I really gotta knuckle down?” then it’s just a normal “Breaks over, call if you need anything” after that. Maybe that’s enough to fill the social requirement?

          But yeah this might be a sad issue of not a good fit if your manager is making it a silent job duty to have full lunch all the time.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          This is the trade offs. I had a job that I really liked and it paid well. I did not go to lunch with the people there. That was a mistake that I vowed to never make again.
          So yes, if you do not join them for lunch you will become more and more of an outsider.

          Why not talk to the boss about peeling some of the load off of your watch? I am also wondering if you have some introversion going on. I did. If this is the case, my advice is to find ways to work around it, go every other day or go every day but don’t stay long, find some a plan you can live with. As far as eating too early maybe the boss can move the lunch a half hour later and you could move yours a half hour earlier and there would be some overlap that way.

          1. Susan K*

            Yeah, I’m definitely an introvert, so this type of thing is not my cup of tea. I already feel like I don’t fit in because I’m the only one on the team who’s not married, five of the other six have kids and I don’t, and I’m the only one who didn’t grow up in the local area. I know they are trying to be nice by including me in their group lunch every day, so it feels unwise to make a point of excluding myself, but it’s too much! Every day, I wish we could just go back to the days when we were all satisfied with eating lunch at our own desks on our own schedules.

            I find myself getting really resentful of the extra time I’m getting pressured into spending on lunch/social hour because I have such a heavy workload. Our responsibilities got redistributed last year, resulting in me doing the work that used to be two jobs (and still is two jobs at the other two branches of the company) and the other four jobs being distributed among five people — so my workload got higher while everyone else’s got lower. Nice that they all have time to take a long lunch/social break every day, while I have to come in early and stay late to get my work done even if I’m only taking 20 minutes for lunch. My manager’s opinion is that I just need to improve my time management, and at the same time he’s pressuring me to spend an hour chatting with the team at lunch.

            1. Workerbee*

              Ugh. I would be totally resentful of all of the above myself.

              The workload is a separate issue and I know AAM has great advice on how to scale back–or make a concerted effort to try to scale back–on impossible responsibilities and unconcerned managers.

              As for the lunch thing, I still think about a mistake a made in regard to a very similar situation in my work career. I didn’t go to lunch en masse with my team, didn’t like their taking extra time at lunch, didn’t like what I perceived as their lack of work ethic–I wanted to eat in peace and have at least a few moments without someone talking at me, plus I had a lot to do!–but I think ultimately it shot me in the foot when the rounds of layoffs started. Despite me doing the work of what turned out to be three 1/2 people (as I found when I offloaded my job in my last two weeks), the boss kept the gang, most of whom were “strategic” types, which in that company meant coming up with ideas for other people to do, and I was the outlier.

              Ultimately, getting turfed out was good because I never would have thrived in that environment, but at the time it felt ridiculous.

              So, I don’t know…sacrifice a bit for your greater good, have lunch with them, see if you can just not-do some of those impossible deadlines…and definitely look elsewhere.

            2. RoseMai*

              It seems like the work distribution is the bigger issue here. Maybe you could keep a tally of your projects and the average amount of time each takes per week/month, and then go to your supervisor and make a pitch for it being more than a 40 hour per week workload. Even better if you can get the same thing from the other two branches where you have the same responsibilities! Then you could really make the argument that you’re doing a two person job.

              At least, you might want to argue for a promotion/raise, if they’re going to continue making you do the work of multiple people. Or shine up that resume and start casually looking.

              1. Susan K*

                Yeah, the work distribution is the bigger issue, which is why I didn’t go into it. I’m trying to get some relief on my workload, but part of the problem is that there used to be a few other people who were knowledgeable about my area of expertise, but they have all left over the years, so if anyone is going to help with my workload, they’ll need specialized training. I have discussed this with my manager, and it is now my responsibility to identify the people who should get training and find training courses for them to attend, which isn’t going to happen in the very near future. And believe me when I say that no one is jumping to volunteer to take on more responsibility.

                1. RoseMai*

                  Do you feel like you have room for growth in your company? If so, I guess I’d make an effort to sit with people at lunch for at least a few minutes once a week. But if you feel that they’re going to drag their feet in promoting you or pile on work without reward then I would give them a cheery “thanks for the invite, but I have a lot on my plate right now- maybe next time!” No sense in extending effort for them if they aren’t doing the same for you.

                2. Senor Montoya*

                  So, it sounds like you actually are in a strong position. They can’t afford to lose you, because then *no one* will be there who has the specialized knowledge and training. Can you move within the organization? Can you see what other jobs are available outside your employer?

                  Are there parts of your job that don’t depend on your unique expertise? Those might be ones to get taken off your plate.

                  In the meantime, doing a little bit of the lunchtime social thing can help you. I like the suggestions about doing lunch once every week or two, on different days, as well as popping in for fifteen/twenty minutes every couple of days, so that you are massaging those social connections.

                3. Not So NewReader*

                  [Devilish smile.] Use the lunch breaks to discuss the particulars of getting people training and who to train.

                  The boss will either sort this out OR let everyone go back to eating lunches at their desks.

        3. WellRed*

          But you can’t have it both ways. I wouldn’t want to lunch every day either, but I accept I’ll miss out on some things.

    2. fposte*

      You shouldn’t feel obligated to eat with them; I’d join them a couple times a month.

      You can say “I’m just a really late luncher!” and let the rest go. It will be clear from when you eat that you are in fact a late luncher.

      No, you really can’t nudge them away from this. It’s a nice practice; it’s just not something that works for you personally.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        This. Use the truthful statement that you’re not hungry and you prefer to eat a later lunch.

        I consider joining them once a week to get some of the advantage of the friendly chatting. Maybe even joining them later halfway through their lunch to support the eating a later lunch thing.

        I suppose this could backfire and they all start eating later and then you have to go with I want/need to keep working while I eat, but I think it’s likely the group is not going to delay their lunch for an hour so you can join in.

        1. Susan K*

          I have joined them later a couple of times (mainly because I was in the middle of something that I wanted to finish before going to lunch), but I hated it because it was really uncomfortable to sit there eating in front of them when they were already done eating. I already dislike eating in front of people but it’s much worse when nobody else is eating at the same time.

          2. Kathenus*

            Maybe a different option is to come for the last 15 minutes of their lunch, once or twice a week, and sit and chat for 15 minutes, then eat your lunch once they’re all heading back to work?

    3. Holy Moley*

      You shouldn’t feel obligated, my guess is they are just trying to be friendly. I would just say “Oh thank you but Im not hungry yet!” or even “I had a big breakfast so Im good right now, thanks for the invite!” That is my standard answer and no one has ever bothered me about it. I dont think you can reasonably ask for them to eat at their desks though. If someone said that to me Id give them side eye.

    4. Jennifer*

      I’d just say I’m pretty overloaded with work today. Keep trying to stop by every so often so you aren’t seen as anti-social, even if you can only join them for a few minutes and not the entire time. But you’re at work, I don’t think you should be guilty about saying you have a ton of work.

    5. Annony*

      One thing you could try is to join them late. If you have a good relationship with your boss, you could point out that you do much better with a later lunch and join them maybe 45 minutes into their lunch so that you get face time but are also much closer to your preferred eating time. That also means that you won’t have to sit around chatting after you are done.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is what I did at OldExjob. I liked to eat lunch with the shop guys, but I ate later than their breaks, and I was writing a book at the time and often worked at lunch. So I’d go in for the last fifteen minutes of their time and then have forty-five minutes to myself, while also eating late enough for me.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “No thanks! Have fun!”

      “No thanks, I’m on a roll and I don’t want to interrupt myself.”

      *Packs up your empty lunch bag after making the occasional gesture of eating with everyone* “Gotta scoot. Have a good lunch, gang.”

      Also, the eating in the conference room is working for them. Don’t bother trying to enforce desk eating if they don’t want it. There’s plenty of very good reasons to not eat at your desk. But there’s also good reasons not to want to sit around gabbing. You do you.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      “Unfortunately I don’t have time for a full lunch break today”
      “I’m not really hungry right now and need to get through this task”
      “Thanks for the reminder/invite but now really isn’t a good time – I do think I can swing it tomorrow/Friday/next week after X is completed”

    8. Combinatorialist*

      I think the other comments cover many possible options, but I also think you could go (sometimes) and then get up and leave when you are ready to be done with lunch, even if they are still chatting. Since you aren’t a restaurant or driving anywhere, you can just say “I have to get back to the teapots report, I will see you later”

      1. DoomCarrot*

        How about (sometimes) saying “I prefer to eat later, but I’ll join you for coffee in a bit”, go in to socialise when they’ve finished eating, then excuse yourself to get back to work and have lunch at your desk when you’re ready?

        1. Susan K*

          I don’t think that would work because we don’t really get a “social break.” We get a lunch break, which is only supposed to be half an hour, but I guess they justify that as their legitimate lunch break just running a little long. I think it would be different if I took a “social break” to chat with them and then my real lunch break later.

      2. Susan K*

        I’d like to, and I keep going in with the intention of doing that, but it’s difficult. First of all, I try to wait for a break in the conversation because it feels rude to get up and leave in the middle of someone’s (hi-LAR-ious) story, but these conversations often have a way of blending one topic into the next such that there’s no clear break in the conversation. Secondly, depending on where I sit — and I don’t have much of a choice because I’m usually one of the last to get there — I can’t get out of the room without asking someone to move, which again, is hard to do in the middle of a rambunctious conversation.

        Finally, something I probably should have mentioned: although the conversations are mostly non-work-related, sometimes work-related discussions come up and I miss things if I’m not there. In the past, when we all ate lunch at our desks, if our manager wanted to tell us something, he’d have to say it during an actual meeting or stand outside our cubes and announce it, but now, it seems like he figures, “Everyone’s here at lunch, so I’ll just tell them now,” and forgets that not EVERYONE is there.

        1. Senor Montoya*

          It’s really ok to either get up when someone finally takes a breath (lol), or to get up quietly in the middle of one of those endless stories and silently mouth, “see you later” or “back to work” and give a little wave.

          Manager announcements: when their lunch is over, snag either the manager or someone else at the lunch and say, “Hey, I’m sorry I couldn’t join you guys for lunch, soooooo busy/this TPS report can’t wait! Did you/Did manager make any announcements I need to know about? Thanks!”

      3. Mrs_helm*

        Or say you’ve got to work. But drop in with them for a few minutes for a drink or granola bar. You don’t have to sit down, but you can join the conversation and laugh a little then go back to your desk. As long as they aren’t the “really you must sit down” crowd.

      4. Autumnheart*

        How about this? When people ask if you’re going to join them for lunch, say “Yeah! I’ll be there in about 20 minutes, just gotta finish this thing up first.” Mysteriously, you get to the break room after everyone’s done eating. What a coincidence.

    9. CM*

      Could you go late and eat lunch a bit early, so you’re with them for the last 10 minutes or so? I think while you’re under no obligation, the social isolation part is real, and you don’t want to be shut out of conversations that everyone else is having — you might miss out on important information because lunch is essentially becoming a team meeting with a lot of chatting.

    10. Enginear*

      No, you’re not obligated. Just say “You guys go ahead, I’ll eat lunch in a bit” or tell them you like to eat lunch at 1pm and for them to not wait up on you and keep at it so that they get the message. If you go out for lunch you can always say you have to a run a quick errand to the bank or drop off a package so it doesn’t allow them to invite themselves to join you.

    11. Bagpuss*

      I don’t think you are obligated to eat with them evey day, although doing so occasionally may be a good plan. Perhaps a couple of times a month, you could go in and join them 30-40 minutes into their break, that way you are being sociable, and eating a bit later, and you only have to use 15-20 minutes to eat if that is what you prefer – in other words, join them for the end of their 45-60 minute session rather than for all of it.

      I also think that how you say no is important – if it’s a very cheerful “Oh, not right now – I’m not hungry yet”
      Depending n the individuals, you could also consider saying something like “Thanks, I find it’s really useful to me to have a break when I don’t have to focus on either work or conversation, so it generally works best for me if I eat at my desk rather than with other” – which frames it as being about you, not rejecting them specifcally.

      But unless they are pushing you I’d just stick with a cheerful “not right now, thanks” and joining them once or twice a month, for a shorter period. (if you feel awkward going in late, leave early, instead)

    12. Pommette!*

      It sounds like you don’t enjoy the eating together part of things, but still want to maintain ties with the team. Would going in to the lunch room with your colleagues, but only stay for a fifteen minute coffee/tea break, be an option? You can make it clear that you’re a late luncher (“I find that eating lunch at 12:00 really puts me to sleep!”), but that you still enjoy their company.

    13. Pennalynn Lott*

      If it were me, I’d join them at the start but not eat. Just take my beverage-of-choice and chat for a half-hour. Then pop up and say anything transitional, “Back to the grindstone,” “I’ve got to finish that TPS report,” whatever. You don’t need to wait for a lull in the conversation. After a while, it will become normal and expected that Susan only stays for 30 minutes (or less). Plus, by getting to the conference room early, you can pick a chair by the door for a fast exit. Then eat at your desk at your normal time.

      There’s also nothing wrong with saying, “I enjoy chatting with everyone but I’ve got a heavy workload and want to be able to leave at 5:00, so you’ll understand if I can’t stay for the entire lunch period most days.”

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I think this would work. You can also just say that you prefer to eat later, because they definitely will ask why you’re not eating if you’re sitting there with your beverage-of-choice.
        But I think once you establish it, like Pennalynn says, it will just be normal that you only join once a week and leave after 30 minutes. No one will blink an eye, and people won’t think you’re an oddball.

    14. WellRed*

      So I commented above but reading through your other comments to people’s suggestions about all the reasons NO, I think your bigger issue may be you don’t feel like you fit in generally or perhaps you’re very self conscious. Is either or both of those a possibility and how can you work on that? If not, then you are certainly overthinking this lunch thing. Go late and eat, go on time and slip out early. Go and don’t eat. No one is monitoring you.

    15. LizLemon*

      I don’t think you should feel obligated to take breaks with them, but I think you have good instincts that this may isolate you from the group if everyone else is doing it. My suggestion would be to try and connect in other ways on a regular basis – for instance, making sure to greet people when you arrive, and stop occasionally to exchange pleasantries and maybe exchange stories from the weekend, or comment on an interesting news story (like an interesting scientific discovery, not politics or something depressing). Or if you ever go on walks outside for a short break, maybe see if anyone wants to join you. I had one coworker in the past who never ate lunch with the group, but he would readily go on hikes with others as a break during the work day (we worked by the mountains with some walking trails). I think he just preferred connecting with people one on one instead of a group.

    16. OtterB*

      My office instituted a once-a-week lunch in the conference room a couple of years ago because we felt too siloed. Granted this is not an every day thing, but sometimes on lunch day I eat early at my desk while working on something, then drop into the conference room with a can of soda or a cup of water and hang out for a short while, then go back to work.

      In part this may be managing expectations. Somebody said eat with them sometimes, but vary the days. I’d say, pick a day or maybe two that you will join them regularly, and it will eventually become a thing that Susan joins us for lunch on Mondays and Thursdays but not the other days, and that’s okay. Also, I’d be careful that you don’t inadvertently put across the message that you are industrious and they are lazy slackers.

      1. Susan K*

        I understand how to say “no thanks” to eating lunch with them, but as I explained, it is more complicated than that. I am concerned that not joining the team for lunch will isolate me from the rest of the team and negatively affect my job and career. Some other people who have replied to this (Not So NewReader and Workerbee) said that they had similar situations in which they chose not to eat lunch with their teams and in hindsight, felt that decision was a mistake, so I don’t think my concern is unfounded.

    18. Kathenus*

      I mentioned this in another part of this thread but it’s kind of buried into some of the replies, so reiterating it here. I definitely get your situation, and empathize completely in many ways. One suggestion from your various responses that might help – if they eat 12-1 and you prefer 1-2, maybe you could try taking lunch from 12:45-1:45 instead. From 12:45-1 you just socialize with the group, then when they mosey off to their desks you eat your lunch. Might be a compromise that helps navigate this. Good luck.

    19. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Is there one person that eats lunch with the bunch that you get along well with? If so, could you tell that person that you usually like to eat later and you generally eat at your desk because you have consistently have a heavy workload? (Not whiny, just matter of fact.) And tell them you know you are missing the cameraderie as well as work-related info, and would they be able to give you a little summary of all the important bits (manager mentioned X, Jason bought a house)? Then later you can congratulate Jason on his house.

    20. CoffeeAdict*

      “Yep, I”m just going to finish this blah, blah, blah and then I will be right in.” Then about 30-45 minutes later bring in your tea and say, “what did I miss?” When your tea is gone go back to work.

    21. CM*

      I think that maybe rather than looking at this as a choice you’re making or a type of ostracism you’re inflicting on yourself, it might help to look at it as random bad luck. You got mixed in with a group of coworkers who have a different disposition from you, and things would be easier if they had a more similar disposition, but they don’t, so that’s an obstacle.

      And then, instead of putting pressure on yourself to change so that you don’t have to deal with the obstacle, just let the obstacle exist. If it ever becomes an issue that they’re all chummy with each other, and it has a negative impact on you, try to deal with the specific situation where that’s happening, but don’t lose sleep about it in advance.

    22. MissDisplaced*

      I hate stuff like this because I don’t like taking lunch and would much rather just keep working on through.

    23. Minimax*

      I think lunch is almost a red herring. For some reason you either have more worm then everyone else and your boss doesn’t realize (big problem) or you are just slower then the rest of them.

      I think that’s the main issue – your workload doesn’t allow you to join the team socials.

      Also I would definitely not makes comments along the lines of – Im swamped, too busy, etc. When asked everyday about lunch.

      Finally, since your boss is asking I think you are missing the signals that the boss is trying to set up a friendlier team with more breaks. You are resisting a culture shift, and that’s not a good thing.

  8. Homework…?*

    I have been applying for work in nonprofit development, and before my first in-person interview at a small org the hiring manager asked me to submit the following:

    – Identify 5 potential region-specific corporate partners or foundations the nonprofit doesn’t already work with
    – Write about how each company’s official corporate giving policies align with the nonprofit’s mission
    – Make a list of other nonprofits the company currently supports, and who they have given to previously
    – Identify the best people to reach out to in their corporate giving programs, and find contact information and bios

    For job applications, I’m used to providing writing samples, taking aptitude tests, or writing about theoretical scenarios, but this seems like it’s just…doing the actual job.

    I haven’t applied to many development/fundraising jobs before–is this normal?

    1. Grace*

      This seems very abnormal to me. I work at a NPO and we hired a Development Director several months ago. Nowhere in the hiring process did we ask for anything like this… we were mostly interested in how she generated revenue at her previous job, her communication and interpersonal skills, and her vision for the org (if she was hired ).

      For some of those questions, I’m not sure how you would even know how to answer! You mentioned it is a small org – do you know approximately how many people work there? Or what their operating budget is?

      1. Homework…?*

        It’s small and relatively young, but growing fast, and their development department is hiring for more than one position right now. They have some major corporate donors already; I’m supposed to look at their “partners” page to get “inspiration” (and know who to rule out).

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Woah, I’m a professional fundraiser and I would totally balk at that – that’s work they should be paying someone to do! It is literally a full time job to research new prospective donors and it’s unreasonable to expect a job candidate to give them information that they will almost certainly be using later.

      There are enough open fundraising jobs in this economy that personally I would rescind my application based on what they’re asking for – this is not how a healthy, professional organization operates!

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        As a prospect researcher by trade…YES, it is a full time job! And I would be irate as heck if our organization were trying to get applicants for non-prospect research jobs to do MY job for free.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      At first, I thought the list was really time consuming and too much to ask for an early applicant. But if you are familiar with the work the non-profit does, this may not be so hard. But…5 is a lot to ask for, and how would you know which organizations the non-profit works with if you don’t work there. I could see asking for one example and keeping the 2nd point to a few sentences.
      I’m guessing they have had some dud people in the position that couldn’t do the basics of the work and so they are over reaching with this task. If you really, really want to peruse this, I’d state that you can’t devote 20 hours to building 5 unique business proposals and see what their response is. It is very possible that they haven’t really considered the time involved. And if they have, then you don’t want to work with a company that expects so much work for free.

      1. Homework…?*

        The early applicant thing is a sticking point is weird for me, too. I feel like if you were going to do something like this, wouldn’t it be after you’ve narrowed down the applicant pool, not just after a phone interview?

        Even when I’ve done things like aptitude tests, they have been after or at a first in-person interview.

        I was also not really at my best during the phone call, for some reason (to the point that my notes from during the call have a bunch of frowny faces drawn on them) and wasn’t expecting to be a top candidate.

    4. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      No for entry/mid level. Yes only for Directors but they’d have you write a development plan and strategy.

      They think they’re getting you to flex and demonstrate your skills but in reality (and they may know it) you’re doing work for them. They’re definitely testing your resourcefulness and research BUT this is what you’d do full-time and not appropriate for an interview in which you’d likely spend up to 5 hours and come out with less than fulfilling results. 90% of foundations don’t have a website so you’ll be hanging out with the big brand names that they already have access to.

      They SHOULD give you a funder they’ve worked with and ask you to detail a profile and giving information based on what’s publicly available so they can test you on what they already know. They’re testing you on information they don’t even know.

      “potential region-specific corporate partners or foundations the nonprofit doesn’t already work with” How would you know this unless they had it one their website or you have to use a foundation directory to figure out who they’ve received dollars from and then use that same database to figure out who would be good partners (btw non-profits don’t buy this database access at $400-800/year)

      – Write about how each company’s official corporate giving policies align with the nonprofit’s mission – not a bad task because it’s relative to the work but we wouldn’t do that on a normal basis unless your job is to a source, profile and evaluate each prospect. Unfortunately, so many companies don’t have this you’ll be doing a lot of work for the org.

      – Make a list of other nonprofits the company currently supports, and who they have given to previously. Only if they post it on their website and/or annual report. That’s a lot of footwork.

      – Identify the best people to reach out to in their corporate giving programs, and find contact information and bios. Again – that’s not always available especially since you have to pre-apply to even get a contact name.

      You’re right – they’re wrong to ask you to do all this. This is their culture – they take advantage of people so what makes you think they don’t take advantage of their employees? If you do it because you think you really want to work for this org and this job, know that how they treat you in the interview is a strong indication of how they’ll treat you on the job.

      What I’d do: I’d do one with the basics and report how long it took me to do it without resources (that you’d assume they have but probably don’t) . Then I would give them a price list for the next 4 at my hourly rate when I consult. I’d submit it and write off the job all together because they’re being absurd.

      For you: Do 1 really well and let them know that you spent a good amount of time on one and wanted to spend the rest of the time preparing for other aspects of the interview. Let them know where you couldn’t find information as it would be best sourced from areas that are 1) paywalled 2) required an account or 3) is only available through a pre-screen or non-profit connection.

    5. MissBliss*

      I’ve been a fundraiser for five years and I’ve applied for a few jobs in that time, and it is not normal. It’s definitely too much to be asking someone to do before a first in-person interview.

      I also… don’t know how this would help them at all. They’re probably aware of the funding opportunities they don’t currently work with that they’re already aligned with; they haven’t gotten the money in the past for a reason. A total outsider could say “Foundation X would be perfect because the missions totally align” and make a compelling argument but everyone back at the organization knows that Foundation X will never fund them because they received a grant 10 years ago and totally bungled it. You need to know the inside of the organization to really know what funding opportunities apply.

      1. CL Cox*

        I would think that knowing what talent you have available at the company to tap into in making the pitch to the prospective backer would be essential as well. Did your boss go to the same college/fraternity/high school as the CFO at a target company? You’re going to want to have them make the initial contact, it gets you that foot in the door so you can make your best pitch.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Sounds to me like this is an effort to get new leads by asking job applicants to do the prep work. There was an agency in my hometown that had a reputation for advertising a job for a grant writer whenever they were preparing a grant application. They would provide the scenario, ask the applicants to give them written grant application samples, then use the ideas but never hire anyone. This sounds to me like the same kind of thing.

    7. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      This is WAY too much for them to ask for! This is them basically asking you to do the job without being paid. Red flag for sure!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Not my field but I do volunteer work for an NPO. If we wrote a similar exercise we’d be asking for way too much free work. As others have said, I’d write this one off as it seems this is a group of people who do not have boundaries.
        We did develop an exercise to do for interviews. Most of the candidates were able to go from start to finish within 24-36 hours on the exercise (this includes doing regular life stuff) and still come up with good answers. The exercise itself was something they would use to start the job if they were hired. (Once they completed the exercise it was super obvious that they would use their own work to start.)

    8. Ama*

      Yes this seems like a lot. It might also just be that I work in a nonprofit area where our corporate partners and foundations aren’t always publicly identified or you wouldn’t necessarily be able to find that info easily on our website (for example some of our invite-only programs the sponsors are acknowledged at the program but not anywhere else), so I find myself wondering how you’re supposed to know everyone they are currently working with, unless they sent you a list with the application.

      1. June First*

        +1
        Also in that field. This seems like a lot when you’re a finalist, let alone before the first in-person interview. I’d cancel the interview because if they have a lack of boundaries now, think of how the workload will be once you’re hired.

    11. BRR*

      Ive experienced this level of ask and it’s waAaaayyy too much work to ask of an applicant. People underestimate how much time this type of work takes if they do it well. I also don’t know if it’s necessarily I’ll intent, I know the thought process could be “how well will they perform.” But employers should know that this can appear to be getting work for free. Personally, if I didn’t need the job I would push back or withdraw.

    12. Hiding From My Boss*

      They’re trying to get a lot of work out of you for free–research, analysis–under the guise of “job application.” They’ll take all you provide and use it for their benefit after the interview whether they hire you or not. Went through an application like this one time, and saw thru them in a flash.

    13. Chaordic One*

      It’s pretty sleazy, but since they are a nonprofit, they think they can get away with it. It’s a big red flag and probably the tip of an iceberg of other unethical behavior.

    14. Arts Akimbo*

      Sounds very much like unpaid labor to me. They’re essentially asking you to do all the groundwork for five new fundraising targets for free. Not saying they’re going to turn around and use all your work while letting you hang, but not saying they won’t, either. It’s not a good look for them, put it that way.

  9. Quill*

    Why is it that wednesday and thursday are so dead in my office and then friday involves me popping over my cube like a prairie dog of ill omen to bother the IT guy every ten minutes because the data I was supposed to get is being delayed due to technical difficulties?

    1. Lovecraft Beauty*

      IDK, but “a prairie dog of ill omen” is an amazing phrase and I’m going to be cackling quietly to myself for the next ten minutes at least.

      6. Fikly*

        I am flashing back to the prarie dog exhibit at the Bronx Zoo where children can pop their heads up in plastic tubes next to the prarie dogs.

    4. Realistically speaking*

      So with you, today is the day that one particular task in my office gets done which means that the software is getting bombarded with reports. Usually this wouldn’t be a problem but of course this is the one day we need to get into the software to do something (this would be a non issue M-Th). and it locks up every time we try to find the report we need.

      1. Quill*

        Good luck, my issue got solved via the application of finding the one person willing to just hop into the software and use their admin password to change a setting.

  10. Stymied Manager*

    I have a direct report who is a really high performer. She is also non-neurotypical. She has been with the company for a long time, doing essentially the same set of tasks, which she is very, very good at and which she clearly enjoys being expert at. Unfortunately the vast majority of what she does is being automated or moved to a different function and in 6 months or so she will not have much to do. There is plenty of other work in our department to keep her busy but she has steadfastly refused to take on new types of work. Here is where I need some help: I have no idea if she has a diagnosis but she shares many behaviors with people I have known who have ASD. The “not neurotypical” conversation on this site last year has been HUGELY helpful to me in managing her, thank you all so much! (Link below.) Can anyone help me understand what might be daunting about taking on new tasks that I am not thinking about? My tendency is to focus on the positives of the new role I want her to take on (“but there will be zero telephone work!” “there will be no sales people pestering you!” “all the work is predictable, there won’t be any firedrills!” – all of which she dislikes in her current role) as well as reassuring (“we will train you and support you learning this new role” “we are committed to helping you be every bit as successful in the new role as you have always been in your current role” “this role can’t be automated or performed by any another function so it is very secure”) but so far I am getting nowhere. I really, really want to retain her and I firmly believe the new role I have in mind is one she will very successful at once we get her trained and will in the end suit her better for reasons above. What am I doing wrong or missing? Is there a more persuasive way to approach this? HELP?

    1. Tegdirb*

      I don’t think your link came through and I don’t have any good suggestions but can I commend you for approaching this with compassion? Because you are and that’s great.

    2. Hazy Days*

      Have you been very clear, in as many words, that she must change her tasks to continue in employment, whether or not she wants to?
      I wonder if you’ve been so keen to make the change sound appealing that you haven’t spelt out that her old job has gone, and she can choose whether or not to take on the new job.
      Soft language can be confusing for non-NT people.

      1. Annony*

        I think this might be the problem. If it is phrased “Would you like to do Y?” or “What do you think about switching to Z?” then she may be giving the honest answer of no she would rather keep doing OldJob. You need to tell her that sticking with OldJob is not an option.

        1. valentine*

          You need to tell her that sticking with OldJob is not an option.
          And give her a timeline of the ramp-up/-down.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        This! Be clear.

        Also her reluctance might just be because of her resistance to change or the anxiety of change. There may be nothing you can put in the pro column that won’t be worse the con that she has to learn something new. Except if you tell her that she has to take on new duties or she’s fired because her old duties will be automated. At that point learning new duties at a familiar company with a familiar team probably beats out finding a new job somewhere else where everything is new.

        1. Combinatorialist*

          If you do end up having to let her go because she won’t take on the new role, it would be a kindness to frame it as a layoff instead of a firing in the official language. Because it is a layoff — her role was eliminated. She was offered a new position, but didn’t want it, but the fundamental cause is that her role was eliminated.

      3. Yarrow*

        I heavily agree with this. There’s a decent chance I might not pick up on what you’re trying to do with the softening language. If she’s not fully aware of how these future changes will impact her job, then it’s time to have a conversation about how things are going and let her know that she will need to gain some new skills and shift into different work. Present this as something you want her to understand and be prepared for and offer whatever support you can on that. The more straightforward and structured and important you can make this sound the better.

      4. sheep jump death match*

        Yeah, my first thought was that she hasn’t realized/understood that her job will go away in six months if she doesn’t learn this new stuff. You have to be very explicit. “Right now you spend 20% of your time on orange futures, 20% on banana trends, and 40% on the monthly grape pressing report. All of those are moving to the new data management team for automation, so we need to find something new for you to spend four days a week on so you still have a job after the automation. If we don’t find new tasks, we won’t have a job for you.”

      5. KoiFeeder*

        Definitely be clear! I have ASD, and from the language you’re using here (which may be different when you talk to her!) it sounds like this is an optional change and not a mandatory one if she chooses to stay with you guys.

        But also, no salespeople, no telephone calls, and no surprise firedrills? Please sign me up!

      6. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Agreed!

        You said ” I really, really want to retain her and I firmly believe the new role I have in mind is one she will very successful at once we get her trained and will in the end suit her better for reasons above” plus “and her current job will not exist in six months” can be the skeleton of the conversation.

      7. Fellow non-neurotypical*

        Yes, I think it’s a combination of not being direct plus change is super scary.

        What you need to do, if you want to retain her, is have the change you propose be less scary than the change that will happen if she doesn’t adapt to new tasks, which is unemployment. And you will need to spell that out. (And then please give time to process before you try to get a decision from her.)

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      You make it sound not optional in what you’re saying here, so … stop presenting it to her like it’s a choice. “Tasks X, Y and Z are becoming automated and the teapot report is transitioning to the crockery team for business reasons. The tasks that I need the Teapot Wrangler to accomplish are A, B, and C. I think you’ll excel at these tasks because blah blah blah, and you won’t have to worry about the llamas tapdancing on your toes anymore because blah blah blah. Let’s set up a time next week to start getting you trained on A.”

      If she objects: “I’m sorry, but this is not optional. These are the tasks I need this role to take on effective (three weeks from Tuesday or whatever). If that doesn’t work for you, we’ll need to have some serious discussion about your continued employment with Teapots & Llamas LTD.”

      And if it IS optional, then what are her options?

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. More “we’re going to do this” vs “do you want to…” If she’s a “toe in the water” person, she might need time to think about it. She might worry that she’s not up for it or she just doesn’t know what she doesn’t like/dislike yet and it could be avoidance because there’s a learning curve or worried about not being perfect. I’d start with something that is related to her current work but not too onerous. If someone is anxious (anxiety can be a comorbid diagnosis with any number of other alphabet soup things), then she may be internally freaked about losing her job that she is good at.

        She may need “chunking”, which is giving small pieces of data at a time. It may seem really tedious, but she may need to be introduced to a llama, then pet a llama, then feed a llama…to get all the way up to full llama care. Some people don’t do well being handed a list of llama care tasks and left on their own.

      2. learnedthehardway*

        Very much this! People on the ASD spectrum can take suggestions or anything not phrased clearly as an order as something optional. It’s important to be very clear about what is required and to be clear that it is a requirement, NOT a suggestion. Another good idea is to give time for the person to adjust to the change – with kids, one typically gives multiple warnings of a change coming (at 10, 5, 3, and 1 minutes before the change). With adults, I’d tailor that to multiple weeks, then days.

        For the OP, I would have a meeting with the employee. Tell her that her role is being automated and that X, Y, and Z functions will no longer be part of her role. Instead, she will be taking on A, B, and C tasks. To continue working for the company, she must make this transition. She will be provided training and support to make this transition. The training will start at X day. You are giving her Y weeks of notice about the change so that she can acclimatize to it. And then DO provide training and support to get the employee transitioned. Also, ask her what supports she would want to have to help accommodate her transition to the new tasks.

      3. Argh!*

        Agreed. Everyone should be treated with courtesy, honesty, and dignity. “Softening” the conversation is for the sake of the manager’s feelings, not the person whose job is disappearing.

    4. Enough*

      Could you train her in just one aspect of the new job and see how she handles that? Maybe just the whole idea that everything is going to change is too overwhelming and adding one thing at a time will be workable. And does she understand that her job is in jeopardy?

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        That was what I was going to suggest – a way to stagger the new tasks in so it isn’t as overwhelming. Combined with the matter-of-fact wording suggested by others:
        “With the automation of task X we are going to need you to take on A starting in 2 weeks. I’ve prepared this training document/video/in-person sessions (whatever works best) for you.”
        Maybe give her the list of tasks that are going away and a list of the new tasks and let her decide where to start – some control might help.

      2. pcake*

        That’s what I’d prefer, too, rather than having to learn and get used to doing a bunch of new tasks all at once.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Hell, I’m neurotypical and I’d prefer to be gradually transitioned to an entirely new set of tasks one at a time rather than in one terrifyingly fell swoop!

      3. A Poster Has No Name*

        Yup. One thing at a time, would be my recommendation (if you haven’t tried that already).

        Assuming that there are enough duties that she might have some say in which jobs she takes on, I wonder if also phrasing it as a “let’s give this a try and see how it goes” would help. If she’s nervous about change or worried she might not do well at something, if you put them out there as temporary or set the expectation that if it doesn’t work out you can try something else, that might help her make the adjustment. And then, if a particular task doesn’t work out, you have that flexibility to shut that down and move on, but she might come around just fine once she gets the hang of the new task.

        Lather, rinse, repeat until she has a new set of tasks.

    5. deesse877*

      I mean, you probably just need to be clear that the change is inevitable and that she won’t have a job if she doesn’t shift focus. Not in the sense of giving a threat, but rather (a) clarity and (b) NOT making the conversation about her preferences. From her POV, she **already knows** what she likes best, so you attempting to sell something new seems weird or unimportant. Not “daunting,” just…she doesn’t care about that stuff. What she has to understand is that her preferences are no longer relevant: she doesn’t have a choice, except the choice to build expertise in a new area.

      Maybe you’ve done that already, if so please ignore.

    6. MissGirl*

      First of all she’s an adult who can choose whether this path is for her or not. Be very straightforward. Tell her clearly and succinctly the work she is doing is going away. The only way to retain her position is to take on these new responsibilities. After offering her whatever tools, she needs the choice is hers. While its great you want to retain her, she has to want to be retained.

    7. Tex*

      Instead of reassuring her constantly, how about being a bit more matter of fact? Such as keeping her informed that the transition to automation will happen on X date, training for new responsibilities will begin with the day after. She can choose to specialize in A set of tasks or B set of tasks (that you pick out). Reevaluation of the tasks will be 3 months later, etc. It sounds like she enjoys structure and the whole ‘design your dream job’ may not appeal to her.

    8. Princess Scrivener*

      I’m a mom of a non-neurotypical adult who is working in a third job over the past few years, so we’re experienced with how to broach the subject of, and getting him to accept, a new role. Have you explained her job is going away, in very concrete words? And have you given her time to accept that? In our case, it takes weeks, sometimes longer. Huge life changes mean adjustments for everyone, but she’ll need way, way more time if she’s on the spectrum. Don’t try to ease her into something new without explaining in exact words that her job will no longer exist, but that you want to keep her. Bottom line, don’t speak in generalities, and give her plenty of time to accept that she’s gotta move. I hope this helps.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        My cousin (Aspergers) didn’t get that his job was going to change until his frustrated manager said, “Your old job will be gone in one month. Either you start learning a, b, and c, or you will be in the unemployment line.”

        He was 40 at the time and all the “nice” explaining totally went over his head.

        His boss did help him with transitioning, but my cousin really didn’t “get it” until he was told point blank.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      The “not neurotypical” (as well as many neurotypicals!) are very resistant to change. And some have trouble, at least initially, with multi-step directions. You need to introduce new things one at a time and give your high performer time to master each one before moving on to the next. If you introduce more than one thing – or make a sudden large change – you may overwhelm her. Given that the change will be in six months, you have time to do this. Make it clear that X will be automated and she won’t be doing it anymore. Instead she will be doing Q, and you will work with her over the next [time period] to make sure she is comfortable with Q. Then move on to the replace Y with R, etc.

      And, at least with the people on the ASD spectrum in my life, you need to be very direct and straightforward. Don’t make it a question – can you do Q for me? They will not understand that as a direction, and may feel free to say no. But please break the changes into chunks and do them one at a time, to allow her to get accustomed to the new tasks. And good luck!

    10. Minimal Pear*

      Hi, I’m pretty neurodivergent, so here’s my POV! Starting new tasks can be really hard when you’re ND, even if you know that it’s not actually a huge deal. (In fact, knowing it’s not a huge deal can make it worse, because you feel stupid for struggling. I definitely recommend against saying stuff like, “it’s easy, I know you can do it!”)
      I do agree with others that some elements of the problem are likely that she may not be clear that she HAS to do this, and that she may be very focused on the tasks she does, so that she finds the other ones uninteresting. So I’m just going to focus on issues with starting tasks, because I haven’t seen anyone else talk about that yet.
      Basically, there’s this thing a lot of ND experience that’s often referred to as “inertia”. It’s much easier to keep doing a thing rather than switch to a new thing. This means that (for example) I’m happy to keep watching YouTube videos, but switching to making dinner is hard, no matter how hungry I am. But once I’m making dinner, hey, I may as well bake something and prep tomorrow’s dinner too! The good news is that if you can get her to make that first step, it’ll be much easier for her to chug along once she’s gotten started.
      A lot of what makes it hard to take the first step is just neurology stuff that’s hard to change and that I’ve had to learn to cope with, but some of it is that new tasks that you’re not familiar with can be daunting and you don’t know where to start. Can you break down the first few steps of getting started with the new tasks, like REALLY break them down into small steps? And provide detailed instructions with how to move forward, and make it clear she can ask if she has a question that’s not in those instructions? It may take a little longer to get her going than it would for someone NT, but again, once she gets going she’ll hopefully have the advantage of inertia.
      Of course, it’s definitely possible that something else is going on! But those are my $0.02, as a ND person.

      1. aubrey*

        Definitely agree with this! Especially if you’ve noticed she has difficulty with task switching (finding interruptions really hard is also part of this). Change just becomes this massive thing in my head and I feel like I don’t know where to start with it. I’m not able to pick something and start on my own sometimes, at least until it’s an emergency. So having someone break down the first few steps helps so that I can get things rolling. Once I’ve started it’s a thousand times easier to continue and change seems more natural instead of like it’s being imposed on me.

    11. Snowy 2020*

      I recently realized that some of my frustration with my non-neurotypical teenager is that she does not generalize. A new task that I see as using the same skills as a task she can successfully complete, she sees as something completely different and new. I now realize that I need to go back and complete the training for the new task. In my daughter’s case I demonstrate, then I walk her through it step by step, then I stand by while she does it and offer assistance as needed, then she does it herself with prompting.

      1. valentine*

        If she also sees things as broken down into as many steps as possible, it may help to consider you’re not asking her to do one thing, but 30.

    12. Stymied Manager*

      All of this is AWESOME, I cannot thank you all enough. She is very aware that her tasks are going away but yes, all my suggestions of what she could do to replace that work have been framed as suggestions. I am going to spend some time better understanding the tasks I want her to take on, then chunk them down and figure out training materials and also how to phase in the training and new tasks in chunks not all at once. And absolutely ask her what supports would be useful for her. You guys seriously rock, THANK YOU!!!

    13. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Everyone else’s replies are really good. One other thought to add, especially if you’ve already been clear about the job going away/needing to retrain – have you asked her why she’s unwilling to train on the new stuff?

      Change is scary, and it can be really easy to make assumptions that look like overwhelming barriers and then use those barriers as a reason not to do something. Once you get her to actually say the assumptions or worries out loud, it gives you the opportunity to speak to them directly. Maybe the assumption was wrong, and you can make it not a problem right then. Maybe it really is an issue that you hadn’t considered or weren’t aware of. Until you’re speaking to her underlying concerns (rather than what you think are her concerns), you aren’t going to make any progress.

    14. Hiding From My Boss*

      I’m so glad you wrote in because your employee sounds very much like a coworker of mine. I came on board as a team lead several years ago with responsibility for improving organization and efficiency. And this place needed it. However, there was a huge barrier–Jane. Over the years, Jane has established a nice predictable structure of repeating tasks, and everyone is convinced that everything she does is just great for the team. This is stuff that could be, for example, streamlined with a form letter and mailmerge, or an Excel spreadsheet with formulas. I’m not Jane’s boss, and she dug her heels in every time I suggested a change, and our manager caved in to her every time. (Painful to me, recently a new hire a lever or two higher than me saw the time wasted on one of these tasks and implemented the very tool I proposed years ago. Look at all the time he’s saving us! He’s a genius! He’s a hero! He was commended to upper management!)

      I don’t know if Jane is “non-neurotypical,” but there’s a lot of good information out there now and she shows strong signs of it.

      You aren’t doing anything wrong. Sounds like you’re bending over backward to accommodate and support your employee. However, you might not be able to change her. If she’s like Jane, change is the thing she avoids.

    15. Arts Akimbo*

      It is a well-known part of the pathology of ASD that we have extra trouble with transitions. Change is hard for everyone, but if you can think of it as a transition of this type feeling like the literal END OF THE WORLD to someone, that might help you to understand her reactions. (I get jangly nerves on my skin and an overweening sense of existential wrongness at times like these– not great for one’s focus, or for learning new stuff! :)) It is the response of many people to bury their heads in the sand with regard to impending change (and not just ASD folks!), so framing it for her in plain language that her current job duties *will* end by X date, so she needs to start getting up to speed in these other duties.

      Then make a schedule. Carve an hour out of her days to be spent on specific tasks which will bring her up to speed in these other duties. Make some kind of accountability metric, like a number of specific things being addressed per day. Have someone train her if possible, or at least close by to answer questions. Establishing set blocks of time for this will be the easiest way to get her to face the coming changes, imo.

  11. Wing Leader*

    How do I not come off as a curmudgeon to my overly happy coworker? I have a coworker who–as soon as I walk in every Friday morning–will get up, dance, and sing something like, “It’s Friday, woo! It’s Friday, woo!” And I’ll usually just say something like, “Oh, yeah, haha, it’s Friday.” I’m not really the type to dance and sing around my office, but she will keep at it until I show the amount of enthusiasm that she’s looking for. Ugh.

    1. OperaArt*

      I’m curious how long she would really keep it up if you just gave a polite, friendly answer, and continued about your business. One minute? Ten minutes? Two hours? It could be fun to experiment.
      Don’t be afraid for her to think you’re a curmudgeon. Be friendly in a professional way, and everyone else will see that.

    2. fposte*

      Maybe you need to come off more of a curmudgeon so she stops bugging you.

      “I’m glad you’re happy, but please don’t treat me like a circus monkey.”

      1. Salymander*

        Yeah, if you want to be seen as a curmudgeon you will really need to commit. Be the curmudgeon you want others to think you are.
        When folks do that whole happy happy dance thing at me, I just look at them quizzically and walk away. If they persist, a raised eyebrow paired with an absolutely non-smiley face will do the trick. This is the sort of situation that resting grump face (RGF) was made for.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          As a fellow curmudgeon, I strongly suggest you give her a look like she’s some sort of aberration, and say in a monotone “I’m glad you’re happy it’s Friday, but would you please keep it down? There are people trying to work here.” Then ignore her.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Seriously, don’t feed it that much. Just smile and say “Good morning!” and move on. It’s not rude to let her dance it out by herself.

      These folks don’t get to make you go to their level like that, by being firm in being kind and responsive but not over the top is crucial for both of your happiness in the end. Your happiness and comfort is no less important than hers.

    4. Nanc*

      “Not in Japan!” (or whatever country is a day ahead of your area!).
      “Thanks for the calendarial update!”
      “All the way until midnight!”
      “More precisely, it’s the 6th Friday of 2020!”
      “And National Lame Duck Day!”
      I worked with one of those cheery chirpy super happy it’s morning/Friday/whatever people and I am not a morning person. Since I couldn’t change them, I started replying with stuff like the above. It satisfied their need for enthusiasm and I learned a lot about various National days/weeks/months!

      1. Amy Sly*

        I got very good at time zones from a coworker who would never stop asking “Is it 5:00 yet?” “In Moscow.” “In Berlin.” “In London.” “On Prince Edward Island.” “In New York”

    7. Enginear*

      God, reminds me of people who tell you to smile and don’t give up until you give them a smile. I’m busy working, don’t bother please.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t give it to her. It’s as simple as that. The longer you respond the way she wants the longer it will take you to undo this habit of hers.

      It can look like this, “Sue, I am not a sing and dance type person. So I will let you do my share of the song and dance.” Then set your stuff down, turn on your computer and make other noises that telegraph you are just going about your morning routine. Let her do her show.
      If you think this is too tame for her to hear, then say, “Sue, every Friday you try to get me into this song and dance stuff. I am really not into it. So from now on you will have to do it without my participation.”

  12. Dorothy Parker*

    I applied for an internal role–lateral transfer to a new team. I came into the process a little late but they had me go through two rounds over two weeks. Both times, the response time was just a few business days. My last interview was over a week ago and I haven’t heard any word since. I didn’t ask about a precise timeline in my second round interview but am wondering if I can follow-up with the HR recruiter to see where things stand?

    1. Stornry*

      Remain calm – remember there could be any number of reasons the final selection is taking longer even on an internal recruitment: they could be reviewing the HR files (for past performance records), talking to the candidates supervisors, gauging personality fit, one of the panelists may have been sidelined with an emergency to take care of, or they could be waiting on the head honcho to approve their selection and that person has not been available. I’ve run into all of these.

      But yes, it’s okay to politely ask the HR recruiter, just once, if they have a timeline of when you can expect to hear back.

    3. Pennalynn Lott*

      The feedback on the first two probably came so quickly because you’re late to the process. As in, they just needed those two interviews to be Go/No-Go. Now, at the third stage, they’re likely evaluating you against the other candidates, so everyone in the running hasn’t gotten a response yet.

  13. Anananon*

    At what point do we give up on a new colleague?

    I’m in a team of 4 with a high but manageable workload. We specialise in, let’s say, polar bear taming. Half the team are experts on taming the bears and the other half are experts on veterinary care, but we can all do everything. One of my veterinary teammates is leaving and gave an amazing 6-month notice which ends in about 2 months. His replacement has been with us for about 3 months. She is an amazing vet, but she struggles with basic bear taming tasks which are absolutely vital to the job. We’re not the best human trainers so we are trying to set her up to succeed as well as we can.

    This week, to see where she’s at, our boss gave her a simple but long bear taming task. I offered to sit with her and help where required (with the green light from the boss) and she agreed. There were 2 parts to the task and I asked her what the deadline for the second task was. She seemed surprised and said she had not seen the second task. I told my boss that she wasn’t aware of it and asked if an extension was possible. My boss said she told my colleague about both tasks in writing and she replied.

    Before this I thought there was a chance that we could make it work out, but from what I have seen I don’t see a way of getting her to the required level. I don’t think she lied to me, but that it was a lack of attention that made her miss the second task. Next Wednesday I have to tell my boss whether I think we should let her finish her probation (2 more months). Do you think this is workable in the long term? Or should my feedback be to let her go now?

    1. Moving the needle*

      Don’t take that burden on yourself, but leave the decision to your boss. Just describe what you’ve seen/witnessed and whether she has the sufficient skills or not, and why. Give your boss the data she needs to take an informed decision.

    2. TallTeapot*

      Has anyone sat down with her and had a conversation about the concerns that you all are seeing? As Alison always says, having that kind of conversation is a kindness.
      I just went through this with an assistant and when I told them that this is what I had been observing (lack of initiative, not solving problems, waiting to be told what to do and once told, not coming to people with specific problems, but instead saying “I don’t know how to do this at all”, even after having been shown how to do it). I then said these are the changes we need to see for them to be successful in the role and that if they didn’t feel that they would be able to do that, then this role may not be a fit for their skills.
      They handed in their resignation a few days later, which was probably the best outcome for everyone.

    3. Annony*

      Be honest about the level she is at. But I don’t think the solution is necessarily to let her go early. If there are 2 months left in her probation, it would be best if your boss had an honest conversation with her that if her performance does not improve, she will not pass probation. And then list out the areas where there are problems and makes sure she understands that while her specialty is in veterinary care, competence in bear training is essential to the job.

    4. learnedthehardway*

      It’s possible that your boss was less clear than they think they were, and that your colleague agreed to something without understanding all of it. (I just came out of one of the inevitable conversations that follows a miscommunication like that, and it really does throw you for a loop when it happens – you thought the other person meant X and it turns out they really meant Y, but they were sure you had understood them, and so had told you to go ahead, and now you have produced a porpoise instead of a zebra, and now you’re both looking at each other like you’re from entirely different planets.)

      Your colleague may need to have the requirement spelled out for her more clearly. They may also need some more training in how to fulfill that aspect of their role. It’s possible they need to have it emphasized that this half of the role is a requirement for them to do. Their manager should probably be the one doing this, mind you.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Go back to square one and directly say, “We all do bear taming tasks here. It’s a key part of everyone’s job.”
      You can review the steps of the tasks.
      You can ask her what parts she is having trouble with.

      My personal fav is just to do the task together. This is because I can see where the exact problems are. I am very willing to do this for people who are doing well with the rest of the job and/or show a sincere intent to get up to speed.

      I assume there is more to it than what you have written here. I don’t think it’s a big deal to miss a second part of an email. Most people do this and it happens often enough. If I had a dime for every time I had to email back and say, “And the answer to the second question is????” I’d be very rich. This could be new job jitters, too. If she genuinely missed the second task in the email, then saying she lied is a bit of a reach. It would be more accurate to say she was sloppy or reading too fast.

      Sometimes you can gain traction in a situation like this by simply explaining “We do a lot of bear taming here.” If you can add something like, “I would guess that each of us spends x % of our week doing bear taming, every week.” This is how to get the point across that this is what the job entails. It could be that she does not like bear taming and she just can’t make the job work for her, this information might come out if you elaborate on this point with her.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      What’s your position in the team relative to her? Are you peers, are you a Senior vet/tamer?
      If she would be a great vet but has no hope of getting better at bear taming – is it possible that some of your workloads could be more ‘specialized’ or is it the case that you all have to be able to do all the tasks and that’s that?
      Is it possible that the boss didn’t actually give the info about the 2nd part of the task?
      Can you / your boss have a clear conversation with her that she is in danger of not passing her probation (maybe that wasn’t actually clear) and review in another month? She has 2 more months of probation so I don’t think you need to “let her go now” if there is any chance of improvement?

    7. fhqwhgads*

      Based on what you described, let her go now.
      I am assuming that when other staff were this new, by this point they’d be far beyond where she is? Assuming that’s the case, she’s proven herself already, in a bad way.
      While it may be possible for some unicorn to turn it around from here, I think it’s extremely unlikely.

  15. Anonymous Educator*

    Does anyone else find performance reviews… not how they actually improve as employees? I mean I get there has to be a paper trail and an official method to evaluate employees (for things like raises and promotions), but the whole exercise seems really artificial, especially because when I’ve improved in the workplace, it’s just because I’ve learned stuff and not because someone wrote up a paragraph telling me “This is what you need to improve.”

    1. LunaMei*

      I think it’s one of the many things where, if you have a good manager, they will be useful. If you have a mediocre-to-bad manager, they will be useless. I have a good manager now, who uses them to actually coach us and set career goals – but he also does checks in throughout the year to make sure we are doing okay, and feel like we’re meeting those goals, and growing professionally. The feedback he gives is concrete and actionable. He doesn’t just plop us down once a year and spout some vagueries, like my last manager did.

      1. Brownie*

        Yup, especially relating to career goals. A good manager will make the time to sit down and ask the employee where they want to go, give feedback on how to get there, and help coach the employee to make career goals that are realistic and beneficial. A bad manager only cares about checking the box that the annual career goal paperwork was filled out by the employee. A really bad manager won’t even look at the goals submitted by the employee, just rubber-stamps them into the system.

      2. Middle Manager*

        Agree. They are what you make them, on both sides. If you treat them as bureaucratic paperwork, they will be. If a manager chooses to put more effort into them, and the employee is open to feedback, they can be valuable.

    2. knitter*

      I find the process artificial because I expect to be given feedback through out the year. However, having been the supervisor doing the evaluations in past jobs, I appreciated the time to reflect on the performance of a staff member as a whole and be able to give feedback in a more global manner.

      More importantly though, the first 10+ years I received no actionable feedback–just “you’re so great”–but in my actually job I was really struggling. My current job is a functional workplace, so I relish any feedback I get to help me hone my internal self-monitoring system. Both things I can be really proud of and things I need to improve. I just had an evaluation and I’m referencing it frequently to make sure I’m incorporating the feedback. I can identify things I’m good and bad at then actively seek help for the latter, but I really appreciate the outside perspective.

      1. Eleaner*

        +1
        If the feedback is not given in a timely manner, it is one of the most miserable feelings. Feels like your manager was either stretching to find something for the annual or just held onto something that was bugging them and not telling you. Worst one I had was when this effect was magnified by the dreaded vague Fix This with no specific examples.

    3. Anonymous For This*

      I’ve never found that performance evaluations to be helpful. Part of the problem is that my educational institution has separated the “achievement” (a good performance review) and the “reward” (a raise) by such a long period of time (it takes about 6 months for a raise to reach the paycheck), that there’s no longer positive feedback resulting from the evaluation. It’s just another form we have to fill out.

    4. Chronic Overthinker*

      My review is coming up. We had a self-evaluation which I prefer as I can tell my boss how I think I’m moving forward and what I thought my achievements were and what skills/abilities/goals I want to pursue in the future. Providing actionable and measurable goals is important in reviews. It shows progress and desire to learn.

      I don’t like reviews that are thrust upon me, like “here is what you’ve done wrong. Here are vague suggestions on how to improve.” That sounds like a bad management style.

    5. Mill Miker*

      I find them useful from a coordination point of view more than anything. I also find I improve by learning new things, but the meeting is where my manager and I make sure that we have the same idea of what new things I’d like the opportunity to learn.

      Even if you communicate regularly, it’s still helpful to have the formal, uninterrupted checkpoint where you both sit down and make sure that your mutual understanding hasn’t drifted in slightly different directions.

    6. JustaTech*

      As an employee (I’ve never been a manager) the useful part of my company’s performance review is when I sit down and go through everything I did in the past year. I’m often surprised by the big projects I did and then promptly forgot about, so it’s good to remember what I did.

      Most of the process we all find very artificial (especially the goal setting, because my department’s job is “respond to things that come up suddenly”). I talk with my boss (and bosses up the chain) regularly about what I’m doing, what I want to be doing, and regularly ask if I’m missing anything.

      I think that there are probably some types of jobs where performance reviews actually can be useful, for positions that have a lot of hard metrics (sales? customer service?), but for everyone who has a job that’s more “squishy”, then the standard performance eval is less useful.

    7. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I think this is industry specific, but yes, my reviews do feel very artificial because the requirements are completely artificial. My review is mostly based on pre-scheduled classroom observations and per the powers that be that lesson needs to have
      1- The learning goal clearly stated
      2- a mini-lesson explicitly tied in to said goal. (this needs to have a chance for students to observe say, a grammatical principal in a model text, explicit instruction and an I do, we do, you do approach to practice).
      3- Be culturally relevant
      4- Involve individual and small group conferences
      5- Allow ‘movement for learning’
      6- Adaptations for the needs of diverse learners
      7- Offer an on the spot assessment opportunity (for 28 twelve year olds)
      8- Wrap up with a reflexion on the learning goal (by said 28 twelve year olds)
      9- Some social and emotional learning is a plus.
      There’s no way you can do all of that well in an hour. I do pretty much all of it as part of my regular practice, but over the run of 3 days to a week, not 55 minutes (You’ll also notice that there’s no time allotted on that schedule to get the kids in and settled and check in with Fergusina about her late assignment, ask Melinda how her hockey game went and watch Bob and Jonny like a hawk to make sure the feud brewing since lunch time doesn’t devolve into fisticuffs; oh and convince Alister that he doesn’t need to give you the play by play of the escalating feud, he just needs to sit down and work). In the end, you either teach the way you always do and get a mediocre evaluation or you pick the biggest bangs and whistles lesson you have, plow through it like you’re outrunning the pedagogy police and resolve to reteach it properly tomorrow (oh, and smile and nod when the principal compliments you on your top notch lesson, but reminds you that you need a reflection).

      1. Alternative Person*

        I have an eval coming up and this is the most accurate representation I have seen yet.

        Last year, after my Observer left, one of my students asked me why I was teaching really weird that morning.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      For the most part the performance reviews I have received are pretty much useless and a waste of my time. Old Job would have me come in on my day off for my review. Yeah, I got paid for the hour but it broke up my day as well as wasting my time. Ten minutes of the review was a list of things I had done wrong. Fifty minutes of the review was all about future plans the company had and the relaying of messages from the company about how great the company is. (You could tell the boss had to relay certain messages.)

      At the job before that, the boss wrote down things that were not even true. Actually that was useful information because I knew I needed to find the exit door and use it. But in the moment, seeing her lies on paper was infuriating and deflating all in the same shot.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I’ve never found them to be useful for improving as an employee (and, actually, I don’t think that’s what they are really intended for, even if it may be how they are presented to you!)

      For the simple reason that if you’re reasonably self-aware – if you’re doing well at the job you will already be conscious of that. If you’re not doing so well, you probably have a sense of that too — and ideally if there are performance problems or specific things your boss wants you to do differently, they would have been brought up during the year rather than just sprung on you in the review! (And if they are sprung on the review as I have experienced… generally there isn’t much hope of “improving” in the eyes of that particular boss anyway).

      Generally they are retrospective about stuff you’ve already done and may talk about things to do in the future but the future inevitably changes during the year, and at the end of the next year the objectives (etc) get changed to reflect reality!

      Having said that, I have had constructive discussions from the review process (not necessarily reflected in the wording) where things came out in the conversation like the boss wished I would be more confident in a particular area, I need to be better with keeping on top of paperwork (we had to do timesheets and other admin like that, and I was terrible at keeping up with them) etc. I suppose the boss didn’t think they were important enough to have a Big Discussion during the year, but then they come up in conversation.

      I do make a point of asking the boss during these reviews “is there anything you’d want me to be doing differently” (worded appropriately for the particular boss) to try and flush out these things.

    10. Mimi*

      Honestly, the most use I get out of my annual review is seeing it as a time when both my boss and grandboss are going to sit in a room with me for an hour+ and listen to what I have to say. The way my company does reviews is weird in general, and neither boss not grandboss are the sort of people who work to make the review useful in general, so for the past few reviews I’ve used my self-review to open up a conversation about things I would like them to pay attention to.

    11. fhqwhgads*

      I don’t usually expect performance reviews to be primarily about improving as an employee? Sure, yes, there’s a section about “improvements” but that’s one small part of it. Mostly it’s about both setting expectations clearly for next year, and making sure they’re measurable, and evaluating how I met expectations for the past year, and noting my accomplishments from the past year.
      It’s true for me too when I improve it’s because I’ve learned stuff, but the improvements on my reviews generally boil down to “learn stuff” or “continue learning xyz”. The times when there’s a paragraph about “This is what you need to improve” generally comes up when someone is NOT meeting the expectations for their role (which hasn’t personally happened to me). For someone whose doing just fine, or even excellent, the improvements basically boil down to “keep doing what you’re doing but at a measurably higher level than right now”, which if you’re a high performer, you were going to do anyway. You’d never be doing it because the review said so. It’s the other way around: whatever a reasonable expectation of progress is for your role is what your review should say you’ll do next.
      If it’s feeling artificial for you or like the focus is in the wrong direction, it may be that your company does reviews poorly.

  16. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    Question for the commentariat about meeting schedules! I work for a UK based university, where academics regularly teach in the evenings (as well as lunchtimes.) We are currently scheduling University Committee meetings for the 2020-21 academic year, and a question has arisen over scheduling meetings over half terms. The two opinions are:

    1) We should avoid scheduling meetings at half term, as it places an unfair burden on academics who have to come up with childcare.
    2) We have to schedule meetings during half terms (our academics come from multiple counties with multiple term dates) in order to have enough time to spread them all out reasonably. We try to avoid meetings during the university holidays, and we give them 6-18 months warning, so academics can reasonably be expected to find childcare.

    I’m trying not to give away which side I’m on, but suspect that hasn’t worked. Thoughts? Are we being assholes? These requirements don’t apply to admin staff, who work 9-5 Monday to Friday.

    1. LizB*

      Not UK here, so a few basic questions: how many meetings are you scheduling over the course of the year, and how many half terms occur during the year? Do all the half terms line up across the various schools in your area, or are there a whole bunch of different schedules? Are half term childcare programs for kids whose parents have to work commonly available?

      1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

        It can vary! We usually avoid the long summer/Easter/Christmas holidays because the academics aren’t teaching. We also never schedule meetings on Fridays, because the academics don’t teach then. Three half terms a year, which don’t line up, though the majority will be in one of the weeks.

        My impression is that a lot of primary schools do ‘half term clubs’ the same way they have after school clubs, but I’m not a parent.

        Each committee usually meets three times a year, and as far as I can tell the complaints are coming from people who only attend one, vs the people who attend six, but that may be a ‘because they are regular, they can arrange around them’ thing.

        1. LizB*

          I feel like avoiding half terms completely is probably not realistic, given this info. If you can aim for each committee having a max of one of their meetings during any half terms, and have those impacted meetings during the one-school-is-on-break weeks vs the tons-of-schools-are-on-break weeks, I feel like that’s a fair compromise. You can’t please all of the people all of the time, and when you’re a parent, sometimes you need to arrange childcare for infrequent work events.

        2. DoomCarrot*

          Are these people all living reasonably locally, or are they spread out all over? Because if it’s the former, arranging central childcare, like many conferences do these days, would seem like an obvious solution.

          1. valentine*

            arranging central childcare, like many conferences do these days, would seem like an obvious solution.
            Providing on-site childcare would reduce the last-minute “The sitter got sick/didn’t show” kind of thing.

    2. Her name is Anne, she has no other*

      Well it doesn’t really matter because you will never please everyone. Personally,I ups be aiming for option 1) because half terms are half terms and are holidays/time off/non working time. Our big committees (senate/court) are often held on Wednesdays as it used to be more of a non teaching time due to social events/social groups for the students.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Can you not schedule the meetings and just accept that some people may not be able to make a particular meeting (get them to send a deputy if needed)?

      What would/do you do if someone is sick on the day of one of these meetings during term time?

    4. A tester, not a developer*

      I would be surprised that a parent cannot find childcare arrangements with the sort of lead times you’re providing. Even if there is not school provided care, I would have thought they could arrange for a private sitter, much as one does if going away for a weekend with a spouse.

    5. Bagpuss*

      I think its reasonable to try toavoid them, but no more so than any other requests people may make around scheduling – after all,the university doesn’t stop for half term, and with university terms being relatively short, cutting out a week (or even two, as they may overlap) significantly reduces the available dates.
      Most working parents have to manage child care, and having a long feed in time means they aren’t being taken by surprise.

    6. Jemima Bond*

      Option 2). Universities don’t break for half terms like schools do, so they’d be arranging childcare anyway that week. They’d be teaching/working as normal.

      Non-academic workplaces don’t refrain from arranging meeting for the whole of August just because kids are off school then; people have to arrange childcare, unless they take annual leave – something academics can’t do (term time leave I mean) so there’s not even the argument of “there’s no point having the meeting then because loads of people will have booked leave”.

  17. Flaxseed*

    I work on a team of 5, including my boss. The newest member, “Fergus”, will sometimes greet everyone on the team *except* me. As in, he will pass by our work area in the morning and greet my coworkers by name, but not me. If I pass by him, I will greet him. We haven’t talked as much, but it shouldn’t have an impact on saying “Good morning” to someone. It wouldn’t bother me, but it’s a small group and I seem to be the only one experiencing this and well, it hurts.

    What’s up with this? Why do people do this?

      1. Amy Sly*

        This would be me. I *know* you, I know how many kids you have in addition to where you sit and what you do, but damn if I can remember your name, because the one time you told me was the day when I was told everyone’s name and now it’s six months later …

      2. WellRed*

        Then why not just say good morning? Also, small office, her name can’t be that much of a mystery.

    2. MOAS*

      I know what you mean, in a small team when everyone gets greeted and one person is excluded.

      I experienced this at a job many years ago, where a guy would barrel in smiling laughing and saying hi to everyone–and made it a point to ignore me. I’ll never know what his reason for disliking me was and it’s been 12 years so I am over it lol but yeah it was super weird and I don’t blame you for finding it weird.

      As to the reasons why? I’m not sure. I’m in an office with 130 people now and there are some people I just don’t care to correspond with. I won’t go out of my way to be rude but I don’t work closely with them either. It would be a very different story in a very small office such as yours.

    3. MonteCristo85*

      This is interesting to me because I have the opposite problem. People who greet you by name annoy the heck out of me, and it seems they just do it to me. Sure, I have an unusual name, and maybe they are doing it to help them remember (which is why I keep this annoyance to myself) but hearing my name all day long drives me a little bonkers. It probably doesn’t help that I’m not prone to greetings anyway (I’d slip by without ever speaking to anyone if it didn’t generally come off as rude to most people).

    4. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Oh boy! I experienced this once. Every morning, the person would come over to my area and say good morning to my colleague By Name but would totally ignore me. Then one morning she said good morning to me by name. I couldn’t believe it. then 5 minutes later she sends me an email wanting a favor from me. I should have know. So in answer to your question, I’m really not sure why people do these kinds of things. Next time he passes by your work area and says good morning to the rest of your group, You say good morning to him by name.

      2. Hiding From My Boss*

        I work with her for a few years. Gives me a subzero cold shoulder most of the time. When she’s smiley and friendly to me, I know she wants something.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If you can make a joke out of it, “Hey, Fergus, remember me?! GOOD morning!”

      Try not to let stuff like this go on and on. It can really eat up brain space if we let it. The minute you realize something is going off-kilter start thinking about ways to pull it back in line.
      Hey, feeling hurt is legit, no doubt about it. But sometimes the way out of our hurts is to change what we are selves are doing so we get a different reaction and we get away from the Thing That Hurts.

      Since you have seniority you do have some leverage here. Don’t be afraid to use it. Dealing with little hurts comes up often enough in workplaces that it is a useful habit to develop and grow. I targeted a new habit of dealing with this stuff as soon as I realize what is going on. I have been much happier since I made this change in myself.

      Speaking as a former new hire myself, I mirrored other people. So if you did not interact with me much I would assume you were showing me your preferences and I would simply copy your level of interaction UNTIL something happened to show things had changed.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      This is especially strange since it’s the newest team member doing it. It doesn’t seem like a deliberate ‘snub’ unless this guy is arrogantly full of himself! (I assume he’s actually fairly new, not just been there 5 years and the rest of you have been there 7 years, or you wouldn’t have mentioned that he’s the newest..)

      Do you mean that sometimes he does greet you by name with the others, but sometimes doesn’t? (I wasn’t quite clear when you said he will “sometimes greet everyone except you”) or does he just not greet anyone the rest of the time?

      If it’s the former — a possibility I can think of (up to you if it applies to you) is that you may be already intensely involved in something on your computer (or whatever), have a demeanour of being busy and on a mission, or are perceived as very quiet, or moody, or any other reason someone might not want to ‘disturb’ someone…?

      In my team area I don’t greet everyone by name but generally say something like “hey everyone” and there is a specific team member who is very quiet and gets very intensively involved in what they’re working on. I am on normal terms with them but probably wouldn’t say hi directly as I perceive that they don’t like being disturbed.

  18. Pusheen*

    Regular going anon here—

    So…..I know this is going to sound very emotional and there are a few petty rants in here…so this is basically just me venting/needing advice. This may sound over complicated in my mind, but I know from talking it out, sometimes things that seem super complicated to us are really simple from the outside. 

    Basically due to role changes, I am no longer eligible to receive my bonus overtime that I normally get after every tax season (10 extra PTO days). Reason being–my new role wasn’t intended to work the tax season hours. I was initially bummed about it because I really wanted the extra 10 days PTO and never had a problem working extra hours during tax season. I got over it. (I posted about this a few months ago but forgot what username)

    Cut to now–3 of my colleagues and I have been busting our asses. We’re easily putting in 45-50 hours a week getting work done for the tax team and putting out fires that were done due to the previous teams. We’re told–“You’re not required to stay the extra hours so if you do you are not eligible for bonus/OT.” Except…there’s so much to do that if things don’t get done, sh*t hits the fan. We have two low performers on our team, one of whom was let go, and the second one we’re planning to let go as soon as we have a replacement in place, so we’re interviewing on top of finishing up bookkeeping, cleaning up payroll messes from previous teams etc. 

    The other one who is constantly taking off, nothing is getting done on their side. Some of their work falls to me, they do the work FOR their team instead of coaching them, and break all the rules–meanwhile only MY team is under a microscope. We’re understaffed because our client base is 2x the size of the other two. The person whos never here, their team is getting OT when they literally have half the work that our team does and we don’t complain about being overwhelmed.

    Petty vent–One “perk” the company offers during tax season is free dinner to motivate people to stay late. This year they’re doing some pretty nice dinners. Our VP was angry that it came too early, despite many managers’ pushing back saying this kind of punishes the people who come in early and leave on time. Someone who works from 6AM-7PM is pulling 12 hour shift but doesn’t get a free meal but someone who does 10AM-9PM, doing an 8 hour shift gets a free perk? Anyways, so I’ve been staying an hour later and I’m here when the dinner is here but I haven’t touched it b/c VP might throw a fit that “it’s not for your team.” OK. whatever, Im pregnant and haven’t been hungry for months and I stop eating at 4 PM so I’m not desperate enough for free dinner to stay an additional 2 hours at work or sacrifice my weekends.

    I know this is a symptom of a larger issue and yall may think “ok you really do suck at your job and your VP sees it but you don’t” but I’ve been working under my direct boss for 5 years and he’s praised my work while coaching me on my weaknesses. and no he’s not a bad manager, he’s a great one.

    My VP hates me. She is looking for any reason to fire me. She chose to promote me and two days later said to my boss that I have serious comprehension skills. The years I’ve been working directly under my boss, I’ve had good reviews, praises for my work and he defends me to VP constantly. And when he does defend me–she says that he’s biased. A few months back I was “forbidden” from talking to him,…from talking to my OWN BOSS. He’s baffled too as to why she hates me so much and agrees that there’s hypocrisy as well. When I told her I was pregnant, she was so happy and then said “do you plan to return….to the workforce?” I made it clear to say “I plan to return to this company, yes.” 

    Earlier this week, she called my report in to her office to talk. VP, my boss, and my report were in the room, and she grilled him–trying to get him to say “Yeah OP’s’ quality of work is really bad.” He didn’t say that because he had no reason to. It happened because supervisor was talking to a friend (whos in a different role) who complained about the quality of our two low performers (which has been addressed and is well known by all of us involved). My boss was irked by it too, and I just feel like no normal manager would do that–call their subordinate in so they can say “hey my boss sucks.” 

    It’s infuriating. I know I sound very emotional here but it’s been a week. Despite VP, I actually love my job, I love my team, my coworkers and the work I am doing. I’m going on maternity leave later this year (God willing everything goes OK) and I plan to start looking. 

    1. Quill*

      Everything about your workplace sounds like a disaster?

      Also, making people exempt from overtime and then having them consistently work overtime is not a good look.

      1. Pusheen*

        Technically–we can come in and leave at our designated hours and take our 1 hour lunch.

        In reality–I have so much crap to do and VP gives everyone the side eye for leaving “on time.”

        1. ee lemmings*

          You seem to view it as:

          You have a lot of work to do.
          You are not supposed to work overtime
          You need to complete as much of your work as possible
          You work as long as you can, but not so much that management has to recognize you are working overtime.
          The company does not realize it has a problem.

          Instead it Should Be:
          There is a lot of work to do.
          You are not supposed to work overtime.
          If you leave on time, the work will pile up.
          *The company* would have to figure out a solution to its problem.

          1. Pusheen*

            When everyone else puts in overtime, they will get compensated either in $$ or PTO. When we put in overtime, we’d get nothing. But if we don’t put in overtime, we’re not dedicated employees.

            Its also a bit annoying that my coworker who reports to me, will stay late because he’s very thorough in his work, and has the work ethic of staying til you get it done. I come in early and he stays late, so it balances out but VP will only see him staying late and saying “wow your own manager doesn’t see the need to put in extra hours.” Meanwhile, she also says “isn’t it great you don’t have to work tax season hours?

            1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

              Your VP is either delusional, a sociopath (in the layman sense) or doing this to provoke you into a reaction for some reason. From what your described seems to be trying to turn your reports against you!

              Can you get into a meeting with just her (she’s shown she doesn’t adhere to the ‘chain of command’ so this shouldn’t be too hard on her!) and have an open discussion?

              On the other hand is it possible that your boss (who you seem loyal to and think a lot of, but bear with me) is actually the weak link here and is presenting false information to the VP?

              How much of this information has come directly from the VP, vs. your boss saying (e.g.) “VP said she was angry that the food came too early”, “VP says even your own manager doesn’t care enough to stay late” etc. If it’s come from the boss, another possibility may be that your boss is setting you up for conflict with the VP for some reason.

              I may be totally off the mark but please consider if your boss is truly ‘authentic’ in all of this, if it seems at all possible.

              1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

                (I’m speculating this based on your comment that the VP said to your report ‘gee your own boss won’t stay late to meet the company needs’ or similar (contemporanously I assume). How do you know she said this — by definition you weren’t there, so there’s another source of information here.)

                1. Pusheen*

                  Sorry I wasn’t clear—I said that she could very well say that, not that she actually did.

                  And I know it’s natural for anyone reading to question my own boss is a weak link here but he is not. There are many others at my level who have seen this behavior directed at themselves or others. So I trust him on this.

            2. valentine*

              I can’t tell if you missed out ee lemmings’ advice.

              You say you’ve been staying an hour later and also that you’re not working OT. I’m not sure what your goal is. Work your 40 and let the VP hate you. You can’t please her. She wants to be hateful. Your boss is the problem, though, because he’s not pushing back or not encouraging you to transfer and isn’t fighting to get you the tax PTO back though you’re working for the tax team. He should be downing tools by having everyone work just 40, zero exceptions.

              Definitely don’t take the food that’s not for your team. It can only make things worse. Please yourself.

              Did you post this the last two weeks without the details? I always wonder what advice re-posters have already used/passed on.

          2. anon24*

            This.

            I am a bad employee. I had a job once where my workload was almost doubled because of corporate changes. We also were not allowed overtime, and were just supposed to work way faster. It was also a very physical job. Management declined to give me a raise or hire another employee. I did not work any harder. Work backed up. When my manager spoke to me about it I said “You gave me all this extra work. You will not give me a raise, or hire extra help. You are paying for me XX per hour and that the work you are getting from me. This is not my problem. When the work does not get done, YOU are the one who will be accountable to corporate, not me. I’m leaving at 5 regardless. This is not my issue and I refuse to kill myself working harder for you if you won’t even give me a raise because you clearly don’t value me as an employee. If you don’t like it, fire me.” My manager stopped talking to me about it because what could he say? When I quit it took them months to find a replacement because they paid so poorly for the amount of work they demanded.

    2. TL -*

      Can you have a “Would you like to help us priotize what can reasonably be done in 40 hrs/week/person (looks like A, B,C or D, but not all 4) or would you like to start comping us for overtime?” discussion? Because it seems like that’s what’s needed here.

      1. Bluebird of Ambivalence*

        Your VP probably is treating you badly so that she can continue to treat you badly and you won’t push back.
        She’s shown she is unfairly critical of your work and ignoring the workload issues while demanding higher levels of performance.
        So you are now in the uncertain circumstance of being afraid of working too much overtime (because you are not supposed to) and feeling like you must work overtime (because the increased workload is your responsibility and to not keep up is to fail).

        She has you managing her emotions (don’t make VP angry! keep VP happy!) and unspoken wants – trying to guess what is ‘right’ rather than adhering to her actual directions and requests.

        1. Pusheen*

          Oh yeah definitely. She wants people to be able to read her mind and “foresee” things. I’ve gotten better at it over the years but it’s never enough.

          TBH I am scared of having a toxic awful boss at my next workplace. As terrible as the VP sounds, there are some good things about it (OK pay, good benefits, good coworkers, great boss). My direct boss is wonderful and the best one I’ve had. I’ve also had meh bosses, and really really awful abusive ones in the past. Better the devil you know and all that.

          1. Noobert*

            You need to develop a “scientific report” style when you communicate with the VP. This means you no longer try to figure out what she is saying. Instead you state back to her and react to her actual statements. If you try to predict what she wants you will get it wrong. And if you do get it right, it gives her deniability (I never said you had to work OT) and allows her to honestly say “you misunderstood.”

            Do your job as she has actually requested. That means no OT. And if she wants to discuss performance, you can report back “We are still understaffed” or ask questions “Do you want to re-instate the OT for my team” These are not complaints being made on your part, it is you reporting on the situation, offering possible solutions. But the problems of overwork, no OT is the VPs to solve. You cannot and should not try to take on her responsibilities. And if you are constantly guessing, VP will then view you as someone who does not ‘know’ how to do their job. Not too mention you seem to be spending a lot of mental energy on how VP could react in negative ways.

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      TBH, I think you should start financially planning to be let go while you’re on or just before you go on maternity leave. It sounds like they’re looking to cut you loose, as retaliation for getting pregnant.

      I’m sorry.

      1. Autumnheart*

        I totally agree. And the sooner VP does it, the more likely she can plausibly justify it on performance instead of the upcoming maternity leave.

        If I knew my VP was actively looking to force me out, and then had a closed-door meeting with my chain of command about my performance, I’d be packing up my cube, backing up my files, and updating my Linkedin. The hammer’s about to come down.

        1. Pusheen*

          It was disguised as a “team performance” questioning. Even my report was like wth. And he didn’t throw me under because he had no reason to.

          I’m still gonna do all that stuff-pack stuff, back up and update that resume.

          1. Massive Dynamic*

            Keep documentation of this shitstorm, especially all praise and positive performance reviews from your boss and anyone else higher up that’s not that VP. Just in case they let you go and you decide you can and want to make a case out of it. At the very least, fight for unemployment…

            Best of luck to you and congratulations on your baby!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      What an s-storm.

      So if I am reading this right, your immediate boss has two bad performers and the work falls to the remaining good performers.
      And if I am still reading correctly, everyone does the same work but some people work under different rules. You work under the rule of: “Do all your work but don’t run up any over time. But if you leave at your appropriate quitting time I will give you the glare of death.”

      Some times, OP, love ain’t enough. You may love everything about this job except the VP and unfortunately that one exception is a deal breaker.

      What I see here is that your boss is having a lot of difficulty with his own boss. IF I am reading this correctly, they argue over meals, they argue over OT policies, they argue over YOU. There are probably a bunch of other things they argue over. Now they have a new thing to argue over because the VP reached over your boss and reached over you to talk to your subordinate. NOT COOL. And why DOES your boss have twice the work load of other people, what is up with that.

      Sometimes the person we think is a good boss is actually a BAD Boss, I mean very bad. Please keep this thought in the corner of your mind at all times. The boss you love may not be your friend in the long run. It’s really hard to tell in these toxic situations who is allied with whom. Worse yet, these partnerships can change at the flick of a switch. Your ally today is your enemy tomorrow. It’s no different than toxic families, relationships are so needlessly complex it is hard to tell who is in the right and who is in the wrong.
      This is no way to go through life, OP. No way.

      I think you have written about your place other years. So my question to you is how much longer are you willing to stay in misery? That is what this place is, it’s sheer misery. So yes, people who have worked too long under toxic bosses often fear change because they feel they will end up in a worse spot. You have to realize that this is what toxic leadership does, not much different than an abusive spouse. “Any spouse you get will abuse you.” And the work parallel is, “Any new boss you get will abuse you.” This is not true, OP, it’s just not true. You can have better than this. And it is okay to look for better.

      To me I see your workplace as a hot mess. I don’t see anyone having very professional behavior. I think your expectation to thrive in this place is not realistic, they are way too interested in seeing you fail. I think that whatever you do will be used against you. Now you are trying to figure out how to work OT without working OT. I think you know that is not even logical but they have you convinced it is logical.
      Start job hunting today, OP, right today.

      1. Pusheen*

        I’m not going to work overtime. A half hour early here and there but not weekends or 60 hours.

        My boss oversees my department but my coworkers and I are responsible for managing our respective teams. I have 2 low performers, 1 I just let go and 1 will be let go as soon as we have a replacement for them which should be soon. I don’t think my boss is being vilified here when it’s the VP who is toxic. That’s an excellent point about toxic work/toxic relationship. I know I have way too much fear of the unknown and crave routine, even when it’s not a great situation.

        In any case I’m brushing up my resume. I have good health insurance here and this is a high risk pregnancy, which I fear Medicaid wouldn’t cover if I lost my insurance here. So I’m not exactly in the easiest position to leave. I just want to make it to my due date + FMLA and see after that.

    5. Laura H.*

      Have your direct boss in your corner. Keep him up to date as accurately as you are able with a paper trail/ email trail.

      An attempted discontinuation or employment may be inevitable for whatever reason middle-schooli bully sounding VP cooks up, but if there’s a good paper trail, you have more of a fighting chance.

      TLDR: Keep direct boss updated and DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT.

      Good luck, Pusheen :)

      1. Pusheen*

        He is 1000% in my corner. My HR knows. I know pregnancy isn’t legal Protection but right now I’m trying not to give anyone any reason to point out my performance.

        It’s legit just personal dislike which I could deal with but not when that personal dislike = nitpicking my work and abilities.

  19. Little Beans*

    I am the manager of a small team of 5 people. Next week, 2 of my employees have their birthdays and another coworker asked about organizing something for them. I replied that I thought it was a great idea, we brainstormed together briefly and then she proceeded with picking a lunch place and putting it on all of our calendars. I had planned to buy some cupcakes or a small cake, but then another staff member offered to do so. As the supervisor, should I be offering to pay for lunch? I’m not unwilling to, but just worried that if my team grows and this becomes a thing, then I might find myself spending $100+ several times a year on lunches. I might be a bit biased by the fact that I generally find birthdays overrated and don’t personally like to make a big deal out of mine – but I understand that other people sometimes do like a bigger celebration! Right now, I’m planning to offer to reimburse the coworker who is bringing cupcakes but if she’s the only one who knows I’ve done that, will it look to  the rest of the team like I’m not doing enough as the boss?

    1. ThinMint*

      I also have 2 team members that have birthdays very close together and a third team member who typically takes the lead on planning before I can. I don’t buy everybody’s lunch (it’s not expected in my line of work) but I do cover the two birthday people.

      1. Anonymous Liz*

        I agree with this! In my experience, the birthday folks will have their food purchased by their boss but that’s it. Everyone else in the group is responsible for their own bill.

    2. Grace*

      You can buy everyone lunch if you want, but I don’t think people will expect it! I like the idea of just covering lunch for those who are celebrating a birthday.

      I used to be a part of a small-ish team, and our boss would buy breakfast to celebrate birthdays. It was a lot cheaper than buying lunch for everyone. Breakfast usually consisted of donuts, kolaches, muffins or bagels, and sometimes some fruit (if we were on a health kick!).

    3. Not So NewReader*

      When I supervised my rule of thumb was not to start any new recurring event that I feared might not be sustainable in the future. You are concerned about sustaining this expense, that is enough right there to stop and figure out how to do this without putting your own coin in or putting in such a modest amount that you can comfortably do this for a long time.

      Don’t worry about what it looks like to the rest of the team. Just state, “Here is what I can do” and let the rest go. The team does not get to make decisions about your own personal budget and spending habits.

      Honestly, the nicest thing I have ever gotten from a boss was a simple card left on my desk that only said, “Happy Birthday” and the boss’ name signed at the bottom. I really liked that. The boss remembered but gave me space because as you say, not everyone enjoys having a big deal about their b-day.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        +1 and I would like to add that “sustainable” doesn’t necessarily just mean financially, practically, etc. I worked on a team where the supervisor’s ‘favourites’ would get a card and recognition every year — asking everyone to chip in towards a small present “to make Johnny feel a bit loved on his birthday” or similar — but there wasn’t even a verbal recognition of the ‘non-favourites’, of which I was one.

        I can’t say I felt too hurt as I try to rise above petty bullshit and choose my battles, but please (thread starter) don’t be ‘that’ manager. I gather you have been manager of this team for a while but the celebration of the 2 birthdays is presumably a newly initiated thing.

        When I managed a team I didn’t do anything particular for birthdays but I did pay out for treats to celebrate / thank everyone for meeting a major deadline and things like that. Maybe your team would appreciate that (if you have the kind of work that lends itself) rather than an arbitrary rotation around the sun?

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Does your org have any policy about expensing team lunches? At my org food and non-alcoholic beverages are allowed on a company credit card/expense report. No cards or gifts are covered though. If it’s not allowed to expense the lunch, then be sure to let everyone know BEFORE they RSVP/attend that they are responsible for their own bill and that it is OK if they don’t attend.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yep. This is why birthdays and anniversaries in my department are grouped–the company buys one cake a month with names on it if they fit. For each person, the managers put together a color collage of something personal or funny, engineering’s CAD tea prints it, and we all sign it.
        Note this is paid for by the company, just organized by mgmt!

    5. Hiding From My Boss*

      Oh lord the birthday parties! My boss loves them so we go all out, pressure to bring tons of food cake, and even if we lunch on leftovers a couple of days and take stuff home, a lot gets pitched out and the cost! Cake and singing “happy birthday to you” ought to be fine at work.

  20. Another JD*

    Does anyone have tips or particular questions to ask for peer-to peer interviews? I’m a senior associate attorney in a small law firm, and we’re hiring a junior associate. I’m sitting in on final interviews since I’ll be working with the new hire day-to-day.

    1. irene adler*

      Might find out about communication styles or expectations between you and new associate.
      Is this someone who wants to ‘check-in’ many times a day while you are content with a twice a month ‘touch base’ meeting? Is this someone who wants to be independent as they complete tasks while you require status updates daily? Find out if you are on the same page communications-wise.

    2. Stymied Manager*

      When I do that type of interview I take the time to be very clear about what a typical day or week looks like in the job and what makes someone successful in it, then ask them how that lines up with their own experience.

    3. CM*

      I like to focus on challenges or metrics of success for the role, and ask the person how they have handled that in the past. In a final interview, I’d also be pretty candid. For example, you could say, “In this practice, we often have last-minute demands from clients and end up having to shift our schedules and juggle priorities. Can you tell me about how you’ve dealt with that in your past experience?”

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      All the peer-to-peer interviews that I’ve been involved in, both as interviewer and interviewee (mostly BigLaw and InHouse) are about talking about expertise needs/abilities to try to determine if the person’s abilities will fit with the existing needs, trying to figure out what a “typical day” looks like (is the person going to be doing weeks of nothing but document review?), and it’s a chance (usually away from the partners/bosses) to get real — this is where the hard questions are asked and answered. Is a 60-70 hour work week the norm? What is the firm attitude towards work-life balance? Does the person coming in need to be ready to deal with difficult personalities?

    5. Coverage Associate*

      I try to begin by giving them my elevator pitch, because often they weren’t informed that they would be meeting with an associate. If I have a resume, honestly I ask softball questions about how they chose their major or what brought them to the region. I trust the partners to evaluate skills.

      Then I try to give them as much information as I can about the day to day and the personalities of the partners.

    6. Sunflower*

      I went to a Peer-to-Peer interview once where the interviewer basically said ask me anything that you want to know but wouldn’t want to ask your boss. Now I didn’t ask her ANYTHING but I thought it gave me a really positive view of the team and organization. Also I think it’s helpful to outline what a typical day looks like, how to truly be successful and the type of people that typically succeed or fail in the role/organization.

    7. Pippa*

      Since this is the final round of interviews, hopefully most of the heavy screening has been done. Try to get a sense of how this person will function on the tail end of a very long day – or a series of very long days. I learned the value of this “final round” technique from observing a senior partner interview. He spent 30 of his 45 to 60 minute interview chatting about where they each went to college, activities or club involvement, etc., and told a few corny jokes (the kind that are more eye rolling than funny but are child proof). He wrapped his time up by describing his work style and asking if the person had any questions. His theory – we’d be spending a lot of time together, some if it under quite a bit of pressure. He wanted to be sure the person would gel with the team. A lot of candidates can do the work, but he was looking for a member of his team. He had a great team. I still miss him. Good luck!

  21. De Minimis*

    I got a tentative offer yesterday for the job I’d interviewed for last week!

    I’ll be back in the federal system, at long last, for my previous agency, but in a completely new location.

    Hoping they’ll be open to a later start date, I’d like to give around a month’s notice at my current job because they will have a hard time with the transition [even though I’ve been here less than a year, we’ve had so much turnover in my department that I’m the only person who knows how to do certain things.] I’m trying to start some process documents. My manager worked here previously, but her predecessor [toxic manager who was fired] really changed a lot of things to where it’s like a whole new job.

    Glad to be getting out of here soon. I like the overall mission and a lot of the people here, but there are a lot of problems with the overall environment and no desire by management to fix it.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It may feel as if they’re judging you as a person, but your worth as a person doesn’t come from how some random stranger judges based on ten seconds of scanning a piece of paper that represents your professional accomplishments.

    2. nep*

      Commiseration here, if nothing else. I hear you. This process is draining and soul-sapping in a unique and awful way.
      Have you been getting hits/calls/interviews? What’s your biggest frustration right now?
      All I know is that with persistence you will land something. I wish you all the best.

      1. Pancakes*

        I’ve been getting lots of interviews! Both phone and in person, so I think I’m doing pretty well, just nothing is working out for me to be the top choice I guess. Many people from my organization are leaving or planning on leaving, and it’s hard to see other people get jobs (even though they’re not totally different areas, so not a competition thing) while I’m still here. And I think I’m qualified and would do great at them!

        1. nep*

          Oh, absolutely it’s about to happen. Great that you’re getting lots of interviews. Hang in there.
          Do you feel like the interviews have gone well, and it’s just a question of another person ticking a few more of the qualifications boxes?
          All the best. Keep us posted.

    4. Alice*

      So much of this depends on luck or serendipity. So — when it’s someone else’s lucky day, that doesn’t mean that you are doing things wrong! Keep plugging along :)

      1. Enginear*

        Couldn’t agree more. I got lucky when I got my job. I was about 70 applications deep until I finally got an in-person interview. A position opened up because that person was transferring out of town back closer to their hometown which then gave me the opportunity to get a job. If I had given up for that one week which that job posting was posted I would’ve missed out. So never give up!

    5. Small Biz Escapee*

      I went through this and was feeling frustrated and taking rejection personally. Then, very suddenly, the week of Christmas of all times (interview on the 23rd, offer the 27th) everything aligned. I am in really great new role now, typing this from my own office, and it’s all just felt very “natural.” But in June, July, August, I was about ready to cry. Good luck!!!

    6. Malory Archer*

      Hang in there. Be good to yourself and take some time for you.

      My last job search took 18 months and I only landed in December. Job searching is really, really awful and so draining, and most people just don’t understand unless they’ve been there.

      The job I’m at now is really great, and I know that if I’d landed earlier I wouldn’t be in a better fit. So try to keep on keeping on and be really, really good to yourself and try not to let those awful stress/shame feelings overwhelm you.

    7. new kid*

      My last job search was brutal especially because I was trying to relocate. After six months, I went to ‘plan B’ and applied to a job I wasn’t particularly excited about but thought I had a much better chance because I had an inside referral. STILL didn’t get that job. Can’t overstate how demoralized I felt. There was a lot of crying involved tbh.

      But two days later I had a call back for a ‘stretch’ job that I thought was super exciting but figured I’d never hear from. Been in the role now for 8 mo+ and it’s been fantastic!!

      All that said just to give a little hope now that I’m on the other side of it. I know exactly how you’re feeling, but the right position is on its way to you as we speak!!

    8. Frankie*

      Job searches are so hard, with so many unknowns! Keep plugging at it and try not to overinterpret the radio silence/the rejections. You never, ever know what they’re looking for on the other end.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      It might be a time to take a moment to regroup. That moment could be a week/a day/ a weekend, just take some down time. Recharge, have some healthy foods, hydrate, rest and whatever else would make you feel like you have put some “fuel in your tank”.

      You are getting interviews so that is awesome, you do have some things going for you right now… sorta like that frog.

      Back in the 70s there was a poster of a pelican swallowing a frog. Being a viewer, we could see that the frog was winning because he had his “hands” around the pelican’s throat. And he was successfully stopping the pelican from swallowing him. Since the frog’s head was inside the pelican’s mouth the frog had no way of knowing how close to winning he actually was. It said something about, “never, ever give up”. We never know just how close we are to achieving our goal, hang on to this thought.

    10. Hopeful*

      I am also going through a tough job search (7 months and counting.) It’s such a struggle, but keep working at it and try to find some time to work on a hobby/activity away from the computer. I wish you the best of luck.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      Mine has slumped lately too. I think it’s just the timing, I’m just not seeing much I even want to apply for. I also got rejected for a few that I was qualified for, but weren’t really in my wheelhouse. Sigh! I’m not desperate, but looking to move on from current job.
      Don’t have much to offer, except try to be persistent and at least apply to two things per week. More if you’re unemployed. It just takes time.

    12. Sam I Am*

      Lows and highs come and go, everything changes, so keep at it knowing the low will pass.
      Good luck!

  23. Committees on a Resume?*

    I need resume help! I work as a staff member at a large University, and am wondering where the various committees I am a member of should go on my resume. For example, I am a member of my department’s staff advisory council: should this go in my “Experience” section under my current job or in a separate section? I am also in a formal professional development program for young professionals that is competitive to get into. Where should that go on my resume?

    1. Plus Ultra*

      Do you plan on staying in academia? Because that makes a difference in how you portray committee work. If you’re staying in academia, that type of stuff would go under Service and then you’d have subsections such as Service to the Department, Service to the University, Service to the Community. If you’re leaving academia, you can mention the committees under Experience for your current job without giving details.

        1. Plus Ultra*

          It’s hard to say. I’ve seen staff with basically CV light resumes and staff with traditional resumes. It depends on whether they want to go into a department that has a service component (say Office of Servant Leadership) to it or stay in some way more typical office-based (say Registrar).

    2. Her name is Anne, she has no other*

      Are you admin/professional services? If yes, I would put the committee stuff in a bullet point underneath the job title. I would be tempted to put the development programme underneath education or again, underneath the job title/talk about it in your cover letter.

  24. BusyBee*

    I could really use some advice. I’ve been working at my current company for about 2 years. I like my job, though I find it frustrating that in general my company lacks innovation and drive. However, about a month ago, I was put on a failing project. The entire project team had quit in rapid succession, and I was put on it right as we’re getting ready to launch. The project is a MESS. It’s really a project save/recovery, though our team is composed of 3 folks who don’t really have expertise in this area, we were all just thrown on the grenade. I also have all the projects and responsibilities I was managing previously, which are not really related to this project. I am overwhelmed, overworked and have so little faith that this project can be salvaged. The pressure is tremendous, and my boss and grand-boss seem to expect our small team to magically turn this around.

    This project is making me absolutely dread work and simply want to quit. The little issues that bothered me before are amplified 10x now that I’m on a project that needs innovation and a strong drive to the finish line. It’s soured me on the whole company, my boss and my job. Is there any way to salvage my role here? I would like to stay here for another 3 years to have a longer stint on my resume (I’m 30 and haven’t stayed anywhere more than 3 years), but I feel so defeated. Advice appreciated!

    1. irene adler*

      Can you hire anyone -with the expertise needed for the project? Maybe it is time to pull the plug on this project? Sometimes it takes someone to stand up and say to management “you gotta know when to fold em, and it’s time to do that here”.

      Please don’t put a lot of weight on the “need to work here more than 3 years” thing. Doing this means you might be passing up golden opportunities elsewhere. Truly, what will you achieve should you remain at this company for 3 more years? Can you quantify that? By ‘achieve’ I mean skills or experience or knowledge acquired.
      I’d rather hire the person who possessed the skills I need for the job. I’m not seeing a 5 year stint as very convincing me of that aspect. And, 3 year stints aren’t bad at all these days. I hear folks tend to work 18 months per job.

    2. Stornry*

      sorry you’re dealing with such a load. About all I can advise is to lay it out for your boss. Tell him that is not workable as is and you need guidance, layout your concerns, what you think can be done (and any solutions you can think of), and what you see as unobtainable in the present circumstances. Tell him that you are overloaded — and as a result, other regular projects are falling behind. Ask how he wants you to prioritize. Good luck!

    3. Frankie*

      Leadership can really struggle with sunk cost fallacies and all kinds of other stuff. Are you able to have a transparent conversation with your manager? “This project needs A, B and C to succeed. I don’t see that on our team currently. Can X be provided?”

      You could also talk with a manager about the barriers to success you’re seeing. “To the best of my knowledge, D, E and F are major risks to this project right now. I need help coming up with ways to mitigate these risks.”

      Would something like that at least start the conversation? Put it back on leadership?

    4. CM*

      I wonder if you can find a way to push through your current stress and frustration.

      You said your company lacks innovation and your project needs innovation. Would it be possible for you to make a difference here? If the project can’t be salvaged, is it possible to figure out how to move on for this, and make a case for it? If you’re in an organization where people respect truthtellers and making hard decisions, this could ultimately be something that boosts your reputation.

      I fully acknowledge this may be overly optimistic — you know your company, and if you only see downside (project will fail, you’ll be blamed) and no opportunity for setting things right, then what I’m suggesting may not be possible. But sometimes challenges like this end up being good career opportunities.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Eish! This sounds like a mess!
      Is there any possible way this can go back to management with a frank assessment that it may not be achievable? Because sometimes that is what needs to happen. Or at minimum it may need to be tabled for x-amount of time. If the management is sane, they should take heed and reevaluate this.

      But I know that sometimes there are *those other types of management that insist something can be done because they will it so.

  25. Heart on my sleeve*

    I have some things going on in my personal life medical wise that are making me extremely emotionally and things I would normally brush off leave me feeling like someone kicked my puppy in front on me. Coworkers I’m closer with are looped in but not everyone knows, however, it’s nothing I’m hiding and would discuss with anyone.

    I’m a woman and I have it in my head that there is no crying in business. I don’t want to be seen any different than the male alternative. The problem is, everything is making me cry. Sometimes my demeanor doesn’t change but suddenly there are just tears.

    Any advice or anyone want to commiserate?

    1. Fiona*

      I don’t know if this will help but I remember a long time ago I went to a panel of women filmmakers. There were three women on the panel and two were discussing how sets are historically male and as a female director you have to have a really thick skin, have your guard up and never cry. I was internally nodding along like, yeah yeah, totally, until the third filmmaker spoke. She said, completely un-self-consciously, “Oh, I cried all the time on set.” It was like a light bulb going off in my mind. You could be yourself in that kind of male environment? And still go on to great success? (She was definitely the most well-known of all the filmmakers)

      So unless you JUST started on this job, I think you’re okay to be a little extra emotional these weeks. You’re human, humans cry, and I think being authentically yourself (while also being professional) ends up being better in the long run. (If you’re openly sobbing at your desk for long stretches every day, then maybe you need to re-evaluate, but if you’re generally a bit extra-teary and most folks know why, I would keep on doing you and don’t worry).

    2. Amy Sly*

      Been there. I’m generally doing okay with my depression, but there are still a couple triggers that will start the waterworks.

      Options for coping: a) see if you can find a scent or other physical trigger that can fight the tears on a physical level. People used to have smelling salts for a reason! Just be courteous toward others about it. b) If it’s just tears (not sobs), keep tissues around to mop up the tears and nasal drips. Most people will believe if you just say that your allergies are bugging you. c) Similar to b), say that you’re taking a medication with the side effect of watery eyes. Lord knows, all the pharmaceutical commercials over the years have gotten people used to oddball side effects. That might invite questions about your medical problems, but it could also work as the low-information justification for any other problems you’re having at work related to your situation.

      The important thing is to try to maintain the air of “I’m not sad or upset; this is just my body being annoying.” The “no crying in business” idea is about professionalism and self-control. People will understand if the tears are a physical issue that you couldn’t stop any more than you could stop sneezing. Definitely lay off the mascara for a while though. :D

      As for reducing the urge to cry at random times, the most best advice I can give you is what I recommend for everyone struggling with mental health: to the best of your ability, get the nutrients, exercise, and sleep you need. Especially the sleep.

      1. Caterpie*

        Option for a) I read somewhere that lightly pinching or rubbing the ‘webbing’ between your thumb and index finger can staunch tears. I can’t say if it actually works scientifically, but I feel like it at least gives my brain something else to do and isn’t really noticeable to others.

    3. CatPerson*

      I would talk to your doctor about whether there is something you can do about your depression if I were you. Perhaps you should see a therapist, or consider anti-depressants.

    4. CatPerson*

      I think that it would be a good idea to talk to your doctor about your depression. Perhaps therapy would be recommended, or an antidepressant.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Absolutely. As I understand it, many people on antidepressants only need them for the duration of the triggering event. (Not me, but I’m downright freakish in how well the drugs work for me. It’s almost at the level of a diabetic with insulin.) You’re not cheating by using a drug to help cope with a problem that’s affecting you this much.

    5. Mid*

      I feel you! I’ve been *super* emotional lately, due to adjusting medications. I almost cried when picking up the office lunch order, because they put silverware in the bag and we didn’t need it. It’s rough. It’s compounded by the fact that I’m the youngest and newest in the office, so I really don’t want to be seen as an emotional wreck. I just take a lot of trips to the bathroom, or blame things on allergies.

    6. humans are weird*

      I had a revelation last year (triggered by the book “Burnout”) about dealing with and processing stress. The authors of the book talk about the idea of completing the stress cycle. There’s a lot of good info and detail, but the tl;dr takeaway for me was – I need to *move my body* in order to allow stress to process and release. Otherwise it builds up more and more until I’m weeping at my desk for no apparent reason.

      I know medical issues sometimes preclude sweaty exercise, but even gentle walking or stretching can do it. There were also some other ways that the authors recommended for completing the stress cycle and allowing things to release (the moving my body piece is just the one that was key for me). I don’t remember the others right now… I should probably reread the book.

    7. Holy Moley*

      Im sorry you are going through this. I understand the feeling of things making you cry. I think the best think you can do is take care of yourself. Does your company have an EAP you can consult? You said your coworkers are looped in, but what about your manager? Is it affecting your work?

      1. Heart on my sleeve*

        My manager knows all the details – sometimes more than she wants! I was trying to vague as she reads this too but oh well, we’re going thru IVF so it’s all hormones beyond my control on top of a semi-stressful job

        1. Amy Sly*

          That is definitely rough. Just take it one day, one hour even, at a time.

          And try to look at this as training for if all goes well and you find yourself flooded with pregnancy hormones that will do the same thing! :D

        2. Fikly*

          Oh, so much fun when it’s your body doing it to you!

          I showed up at a doctors office the other day, on time, but a day early, and couldn’t be seen. I just about started to cry, which is very atypical for me. Then I checked my sugar and realized I was hypo. *sigh*

          No real advice, sorry.

    8. blink14*

      I’ve definitely cried several times at work – tried to keep it quiet and in private, but sometimes that just doesn’t happen. Most times were directly related to things going on in my personal life, and at my old job I was pushed past my breaking point and cried a couple of times in private.

      Best thing for me in most of these scenarios was to let my boss and a couple of close co-workers know what was going on, and keep them up to date on how I’m doing. I deal with chronic medical conditions, one of which is severe fatigue, and there are some days where I’m so tired I literally cry when I get home, so if anything goes wrong during the work day, it’ll set me off.

      You are human, you are going to have emotions, and that’s ok. Men do too, but they tend to go for anger versus sadness. And if you can take a day or two off, maybe you should – let yourself feel the emotions you’re going through in a way that works for you and isn’t in a workplace setting.

    9. Retail not Retail*

      This can be a comforting or horrifying thought – they may not notice you’re crying!

      I was a bagger loading someone’s cart and neither she nor the cashier noticed. This summer I cried for 40 minutes straight while working and nothing! We were kind of off and separated but yeah.

      You don’t want to be noticed but you also do! It sucks!

  26. nep*

    Freelance writers: Do you or have you ever used an hourly rate? What determines for you whether you’ll use a per-word rate, flat rate, hourly…?
    And if you have used an hourly rate and care to say, what’s the range you charge per hour? I know type of writing varies–just looking to get an idea. I look at things like the Editorial Freelancers Association rates page, but I’d like to hear about some real-life cases.
    Thanks for any insights.

    1. Dragoning*

      If I’m freelance writing, I charge by word.

      If I’m freelance editing, I charge by the hour, but the price is based on how many pages I can likely get through an hour.

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      $X for 500 words, including one rewrite of no more than 10%.

      I go per-word, because that’s usually how the RFQs are specified: “We need an article of 450-500 words that covers x, y, and z.”

    3. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      As an EFA member, I want to point out that the rates page is based on a survey from several years ago, so if you’re looking at the lower end of the range, you might want to adjust for inflation.

      (I’m an editor/proofreader, not a writer, so can’t answer the actual question.)

    4. RagingADHD*

      I have more often charged per word, but I’m currently working on a very long project that involves a ton of research, and will have extensive revisions from multiple stakeholders.

      My rate for this is $60 / hour.

    5. Beehoppy*

      Per hour can get tricky because then you end up penalizing yourself for working faster/being efficient. You might try thinking about the hourly rate you want and then how many words per hour you typically write and then making the calculation from there.

  27. Some Sort of Management consultant*

    How do I keep my personal life from ruining my productivity at work?
    (Or How SSMC Turns a 13 Word Question in a 300+ word Mini Essay.)

    I have so many things I would like to ask, but I’m going to try and limit myself to one.
    I’ve recently returned to work part-time after 4 months of medical leave due to burnout.
    My job is very supportive and we have a plan to gradually ease back into work.

    My most prominent symptom of burnout is difficulty to cope with demands, I freeze up completely when I get overwhelmed.

    I’ve had a bunch of difficult things in my personal life and family during the last five years and while everything is fine now, I worry about when the next shoe will drop.

    Last week, my grandma broke her foot after my mom accidentally bumped into her with the car and had to go to the emergency room. Mom called me in desperate guilt.
    It was just a sprain, but it meant I could not get any work done that day, I just sat and stared until I gave up.

    I had a frank conversation with my manager about this the day after, and agreed that I need ways to prevent personal happenings from my work. It might sound callous, but I had the same thought. Gran was not in any danger, I could do nothing to speed things p, and if I went to the hospital at 1.30pm or 2.30pm, it really would not have made a difference. I’m not good at compartmentalizing.

    I’m bringing this up to my psychologist next week, but I would really appreciate some advice.
    One thing I have said to my parents is that they should avoid calling me at work for now (I only work a few hours a day so unless someone is literally dying, most things can wait.) because any time I have to restart after being interrupted takes pretty long right now.

    1. That'll happen*

      Are your parents calling you on your cell? If so, can you just put your phone on do-not-disturb while you’re at work? That way you won’t be getting notifications and you can just deal with whatever after you get out of work. I know on iphone do not disturb you can set it to allow a call through if a number calls you twice within 3 minutes, so if it truly is an emergency you will get the call. It looks like android has something similar. The only question is if your parents will abide by this.

      1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

        Unfortunately, I get enough calls from doctors and gov’t agencies that I can’t just have do not disturb on. Which sucks.

        1. Fikly*

          Can you filter out your family contacts, and put them on do-not-disturb, but leave the calls you do need to receive free to come through?

    2. twig*

      I don’t have answers, but I’m here to commiserate.

      I left my husband just after Christmas, then got rear ended, which totaled my (still functional, just old and high mileage) car. I’m dealing with the fallout from both of those while working on rebuilding my life and work — it’s just hard to focus sometimes (most of the time).

      sending you virtual hugs.

    3. LizB*

      Have you found any strategies or techniques that work to help dissipate the frozen-ness, or do you just have to wait it out? If you can find a bit of a reset button (go for a walk? leave the building for a bit? do a guided meditation? vent to a friend?), that could help.

      Also…can you ignore phone calls from your parents while at work? Just send ’em to voicemail? Or would you freeze up from seeing the caller ID because you know it could be a bad thing? If your mom is reasonable, you could let her know what your work hours are, then set the bar for calling you at work as “There is an emergency that SSMC can actively help with,” not “A bad thing has happened that SSMC will want to be informed of at some point.”

    4. Sunflower*

      I would be very upfront with your psychologist and see what they say. If you’re open to medication, that might help in the long or short term. I would definitely let them know the level this is affecting your life as you may have some options there.

      Also…I may be picking up more from this post than is there but it sounds like your parents call you a lot. I’d urge you to consider if this is really necessary or if you’re within your rights to put up some firmer boundaries. I can see why your mother was upset as the situation sounds really scary but if these calls are a regular occurrence, I’d really encourage you to explore your boundaries with your family with your psychologist. Your life outside of work is going to affect you at work and I’m wondering if you’re carrying more emotional baggage than you need to.

      1. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

        I’d say it’s not just about the calling. It sounds like your mom called you specifically to *share her guilt*. It’s totally normal for loved ones to work with us through our bad feelings, but you’re not in a great place right now and it would be 1000% reasonable for you to put your friends and family on notice that you can’t be pulled into emotional labor until you get yourself back on an even keel.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Yep. Especially daughters can wind up doing a lot of the supporting/comforting/soothing/emotional labor in families. That sounds like something OP isn’t up for right now.

          OP: Setting boundaries may take some practice (for both you and parents), but it’s very worth doing. It’s trite, but you’ve got to get your own oxygen mask on before helping anyone else – it sounds like you don’t have anything extra right now. That is not a personal failing, that is a very painful, human, and normal place to wind up. Be selfish for a while, take care of yourself. I doubt you are the only person your family *could* lean on. It will be good for both them and you to discover that.

  28. Orange Crushed*

    I have to interact with coworkers who can be rude and combative. One woman needed help and instead of asking, she just went off on me. “I’m not going to waste my time doing this if it is going to be wrong”, etc. I was shocked, but others have told me that this is the norm for her. I remained calm and explained the process to her, but it was still a little unnerving.

    Any tips or tricks for dealing with people like this?

    1. Mrs Peaches*

      Aim for a balance of empathy and assertiveness. Start by acknowledging that the task is difficult/frustrating/whatever she may be feeling, and reiterate that you’re happy to help. Then tell her that the combativeness is counterproductive and ask her not to talk to you that way in the future. Here’s a good article on adapting the assertiveness formula for work: https://hbr.org/2017/08/a-simple-way-to-be-more-assertive-without-being-pushy

      If all else fails, just take a deep breath and remember that it’s not personal, and try not to let it get under your skin.

    2. foolofgrace*

      It might take the wind out of her sails if you use a method that I like to use for having a productive argument: You let the other person say their piece without interruption, and then you say “What I’m hearing you say is…” and fill in with what you understand she is saying. If you get it wrong, lather rinse repeat. Eventually the real problem will surface, or at least she will be calmer. Best of luck!

    3. Aurélia*

      “Why do you feel like it would be wrong? Is there a specific piece I could help you with?”
      Any ideas about her manager? How well do you feel like something like, “Let’s loop in Manager and see if they have any ideas to make you more comfortable and get us on the same page.” would go?

    4. Banana Bum*

      OOO I have some coworkers like this. If I’m close with the person, I call them out. “no need to be frumpin hostile”

      Or I just deal with it and don’t let that person’s sour attitude get to me. If they want to be combative and get flustered over nothing, so be it.

    5. TellMe*

      Is this coworker getting all the information they need to complete the task?

      I’ve said this to a manager because she wasn’t giving me requirements for a task, but said it needed to be done. Every attempt I made to complete the task was met with, “that’s not what I meant.” On the 5th iteration, I told her just this as it was a waste of her and my time to do a task over an over without the full requirements and her refusal to give them to me was causing this insane loop.

      After telling her this, we sat down and it came to light she has a specific format she wanted, but hadn’t bothered to tell me.

    6. Close Bracket*

      It might help to reframe it in your mind as something less offensive. Instead of interpreting how her approach as going off on you, interpret it as making a direct statement about valuing her time and wanting to get things right. It takes some practice to reframe things this way, and you do have to get to the other side of your immediate defensive reaction. That moment of shocked silence can be your friend bc you can use it to actively remind yourself, right, this is not an attack, this is an expression of wanting to get something right the first time and not have to redo it, which is something that benefits the entire company.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Generally there’s a motivation and internal logic to the way people respond/react to things (even if it seems totally irrational or illogical to you!) I’ve found.
      “Instead of asking, she just went off on me […] this is the norm for her” — you sound quite self aware so I’m sure it is nothing specific you’d done, especially since other people said she normally reacts like that. But there must be a motivation! — so you need to get to the bottom of that ideally.

      You didn’t write much detail so I am inferring a lot, but is it possible that your environment is one with a lot of harsh criticism, wasted work (things that turn out to be ‘wrong’), endeavours that don’t end up with any real result and have to be done again when some other initiative comes along, etc. Perhaps she’s seen it all before, been burned and is sceptical/cynical about any new task or one she is unfamiliar with because it will turn out to be ‘wrong’ anyway?

      It sticks out to me that you have to interact with “coworkers” (plural) who are like this. Is it an industry that attracts those kind of people, or is there something intrinsic to your particular workplace that (perhaps) you are more resilient to for whatever reason?

      Sorry I don’t have any “tips or tricks” as a way of solving the immediate problem but I would take a look at the bigger picture and if there is something within your organization that encourages (or forces!?) many people to react like this. And if that sounds at all familiar, try to apply empathy first.

    8. !*

      I kill them with kindness, and it must work since I had a woman who went off on me email me at 10:30 pm to apologize. I don’t take anything personally, and just keep to the issue at hand and try to diffuse the situation. We have many in my organization who can get really stressed around certain times of the year and I understand that and just try to be the voice of reason in the midst of the craziness.

  29. Twill*

    I am admittedly not the most tech savvy crayon in the box, but I am wondering – Is there anyway to just access comments on a particular question in the daily column? While I do read all of the questions, and all of Allison’s answers, I am usually only curious about the comments on one or two of the actual questions. And when there are hundreds of comments attached at the end of the column, I usually just give up! There may not be a way, but just thought I would throw it out there :)

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      No, not really, assuming you mean the multi-question posts. I collapse all comments and skim through for the ones that mention the letter I’m curious about, and unfold those threads, but I think that’s about the only option. :)

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      You can collapse all the threads (there’s a link for it at the top of the comment page) and just scroll through and open comment threads that look interesting!

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think most commenters will reference the question number in the initial response, so you can use Ctrl+F to search for “#2” or whatever question you’re most interested in

    4. Quill*

      Based on the way comments sections work, I don’t think there’s anything for it other than control+f for “LW1” or collapsing threads not about the questions you’re looking for.

    5. AMD*

      You could try expanding comments and then using Ctrl-F to search for a keyword like “#3” or “Fergus” or “bathroom.”

    6. Lady Alys*

      If I really want to follow a particular comment thread, I right-click on the time stamp beneath the original comment and save that somewhere in a plain text file. I can then copy/paste into the browser address bar when I want to see it again. Sorry that’s PC-specific, I don’t know how to do that on a Mac – option+click maybe?

      1. StillLooking*

        Similar to what Lady Alys said: clicking the timestamp changes the address to reflect that location on the page, much like what happens when you share a YouTube video at a specific timestamp.
        Click timestamp and bookmark it. You can come back and reference it whenever, or look for updates.

    7. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      You can set it so that all comments are collapsed, and just expand the ones for the questions you’re most interested in.

  30. MommyShark*

    If you’re continuing to do all your work faster than everyone else, no one is viewing you as swamped and instead seeing that you have the capacity for the extra work. Stop stressing to get it completed quickly. Prioritize the work with your supervisor and perform it in that order.

    It’s hard to let things slip, I’ve been there, but if you always over perform as more duties are piled on, how would they recognize there is a problem?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      This works when you’re not sure what your capacity is, but when you have a good grasp of the fact that you are busy enough that accepting new duties will cause things to slip, then turn down those duties. If you are at capacity, and someone comes up to you and says ‘also, we need you to do x’ then respond with ‘I’m at capacity, we can talk to my supervisor about priority shifts, or I can get to your thing after all of the other things are done’. Don’t just let things drop because you can’t get to them.

  31. Tegdirb*

    Do you guys ever follow up with headhunters? I had one contact me via Linkedin, we chatted on the phone and now it’s been two weeks and nothing. Should I send them a message to follow up? I also have a friend who might need their help as well.

    2. irene adler*

      The headhunter has moved on. Believe me, if they were still interested in you, they’d be communicating with you daily or even more frequently.
      You can suggest your friend get in touch with them, but if the headhunter finds no positions that you friend might potentially fill, they won’t get much traction with them either.

  32. Crowdsourcing Career*

    Alright everyone, I’m stuck on career ideas because I don’t know what’s out there, so I’m hoping the AAM hivemind can help me out.

    Right now, I’m in IT. I’m doing Tier II tech support, and have been in progressively more responsible roles for the past 5 years. I also have an associates in compsci. That said, I’ve taken a look at the options for advancement available to me, and I’ve decided that I don’t want to be in IT any more. I’m a bad programmer, sysadmin tasks don’t interest me, same with database work (and I hate stats/am bad at math), my attempts at getting a compsci or IT BS are going poorly to say the least, and frankly, my enjoyment tinkering with technology doesn’t translate to a liking for it as a career.

    So, with all that said, what are my strengths? I’m an excellent writer and a good communicator. I’m good with tech and I’m a logical thinker who is good at solving problems. I’m looking for a writing-intensive career, but I’m so far removed from that arena that the only thing I can think of is tech writing. Which I would love! But I don’t have it in me to get a BS in a STEM field.

    My interests are history, political science, literature. I’m a heavy introvert (although I enjoy people and have decent people skills) so I would prefer something where I don’t have to pull long hours around others (long hours in general are okay). I am willing to get a BS/BA or certificates but I don’t have the resources for grad school. Does anyone have any suggestions for career paths I could look at?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think all tech writers have a BS in a STEM field. Have you tried looking at technical writer positions at large tech companies? What publicly available documentation experience do you have?

      1. Crowdsourcing Career*

        Unfortunately, none of the documentation I’ve written (it’s been a lot) is publicly available – I’ve mostly worked for companies that are very strict about what outsiders can and can’t see. I could create mock-ups of similar work I’ve done? (For example, spin up a VM and try to do some SCCM documentation – detailed instructions on how to use it was one of my first “tech writer” tasks.)

        I guess I assumed you needed a BS in STEM to be a tech writer because all the tech writers I know are some flavor of engineer or software developer. But I admit I haven’t gone and looked at many job postings.

      2. merp*

        Just chiming in to say I got some interviews for tech writer positions as a freshly graduated humanities major – no degree in STEM in sight. I ended up going in a different direction, but in case that’s helpful/encouraging!

          1. merp*

            It was a bachelor’s in communications, which I’m sure helped a bit, but I did the same amount of writing as many other humanities majors so I think a lot of degrees could work a similar angle that I did.

    2. Jellyfish*

      Have you looked at library metadata and/or cataloging at all? That may still be too close to tech for your preference, but it might be a good entry point for you to switch fields but still use your knowledge and experience.

      1. Crowdsourcing Career*

        I’m on a work PC and can’t search Indeed for those keywords – what exactly is library metadata/cataloging?

        1. Jellyfish*

          I pulled this job description from Google – “Responsible for managing the catalog of materials at a library. Inputs data about materials into electronic catalog to ensure users can locate books, serials, films, or other documents. Prepares bibliographic and item records for monographs, journals and other library material.”

          To roughly translate, catalogers handle a lot of the back end work that makes libraries function. For a patron to look up a book or an article, somebody has to input all the information about that book (the metadata) to make it searchable. Depending on the library, catalogers may also decide how to categorize and file information. For a terrible example, if a book comes in detailing the exploits of a murderous daffodil, do you file it under botany or true crime?

          It’s generally not a public facing job, but there’s lots of opportunity to interact with others in the library field and to write about what you’re doing. Many places are starting to look for people with a tech background for these positions rather than requiring the library / information master’s degree.

          If you’re into problem solving, writing, history, tech, and details, archiving is another potential library-ish career. That’s a highly competitive field though, and it would likely require grad school to break into at all.
          Whatever you end up doing, I wish you success!

          1. Crowdsourcing Career*

            Well, now I really want to read the book about the murderous daffodil.

            Thank you for the explanation! That sounds like it would really suit me.

            1. Frankie*

              Seconding that librarian positions are really, really competitive, though. I knew some folks who went to library school and I think it took them years after their degrees to finally get true librarian positions. So you wouldn’t want to set it as your number 1 option unless you were really sure it was your true love!

              1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                Alas it’s daffodils as an acronym but… the link in moderation does come up on a Google search for murderous daffodils.

    3. Eng*

      Do you already have a degree (not necessarily STEM)? I looked for Amazon tech writing jobs and the first posting I saw listed “Degree in English, Technical Writing, Computer Science or a related field.” That seems really broad! You may not need a STEM degree. I also know there are tech writing certifications one can do, though the only person I know that did one did have a computer science background.

      1. Crowdsourcing Career*

        I only have an AAS right now, but I was planning on getting a four-year degree anyway. Just not sure what it would be yet! My school offers a Technical Communications degree; does that sound like a good idea? Link to the actual degree to follow.

    4. irene adler*

      Might look into Quality Assurance. QA people like to tackle and solve problems.
      Visit ASQ.org

      There’s auditing where you assure processes and products conform to the expected standards. You write reports explaining your audit results. This is a viable career in many industries: pharma, medical device, electronics, aerospace, food products, biotech, aviation and any other fields that are regulated by law or standards.

      There’s regulatory affairs where you assure the employer is following regulations or standards and figures out how the company will meet these standards/regs when they change. This too, applies in the fields mentioned above.
      Might also look into the IT end of each of these careers and industries I’ve mentioned. For example, biotech utilizes a lot of IT-type stuff. Someone has to have the understanding of IT to audit IT practices.

      ASQ.org has info on this. If this interests you, might seek out your local section and attend a monthly meeting. Talk to folks. They WILL have ideas.

      1. Crowdsourcing Career*

        Thank you so much! I actually have IT experience in a couple of those industries so that is promising! I am going to look at job postings for this later, but does QA generally require a four-year degree, and if so, in what (if it matters)?

        1. irene adler*

          Depends upon the company. Do you have experience/knowledge in IT? Can it be leveraged for use in an auditing setting? A lot of Biotech job ads say “degree preferred-but not required.” This shouldn’t be a deal-breaker at all.

          You might have to take a course in how to perform auditing. See ASQ.org. One course won’t kill ya.

          See, the thing is, you bring to the table knowledge of a discipline. That’s the key. They can train ya to audit. But they can’t really train the IT knowledge into someone. Advantage: you.

          Find the QA folks local to your area (via ASQ.org). Talk with the folks. They will know about whether you need a 4-year degree or not.

          Another thought comes to mind: project management. Might look into that too.

            1. Spork*

              Software QA doesn’t require a 4-year degree. A general IT background, paired with an aptitude/interest in troubleshooting, is often all it takes to get a great QA tester, who can then develop into a lot of different roles – team lead, automation engineer, performance engineer, et cetera. My team has some people with various degrees and also two college dropouts, one of whom is one of the best QA folks I’ve worked with thanks to his mentality around testing.

              One of the downsides is entry level QA often pays complete shit, so…

    5. Super Duper Anon*

      I am a tech writer, and only have a compsci degree. I realized after that finishing the degree that while I was really interested in tech, I did not want to program for a living. So I took a year off and did an exchange program and worked a temp job and went back to school for a year for a post-graduate technical writing certificate (I am in Canada, so what is available to you may vary). It gave me the boost I needed to get my first job (although I had to take a combo tech writer/administrator job to get my foot in the door) and I have been a tech writer ever since.

    6. Nicki Name*

      Business analyst, perhaps? There’s always a need for people to be the bridge between business needs and technical knowledge.

      1. Windchime*

        This was going to be my suggestion. I am a report developer in a BI department. We have Business Analysts (BA) for each specialty group, and the BA’s responsibility is to gather requirements from users and create a report spec that the developer will then use to determine how to create the report. Having technical knowledge is very helpful and a good BA is worth their weight in gold.

    7. new kid*

      Adding a +1 to the other commenters who’ve said you don’t need a STEM degree for tech writing. I started my career as a tech writer and my undergrad degree was actually in business!

      I read up-thread your concerns about proprietary writing samples and I’ve dealt with that a bunch so a couple of suggestions: 1) see if there’s a way you can ‘anonymize’ the content in a way that your writing is still in tact but the specific product details are obscured, or 2) if all else fails, write up a couple of samples specifically for your job search just using a well-known program you use often, eg. work steps on how to do a complicated process in excel.

      At the end of the day, strong writers are hard to find, so my experience has been that writing samples/writing tests in the application process are going to matter way more than your specific degree or credentials (for entry level especially).

      Good luck!!

      1. Crowdsourcing Career*

        Thank you! Everyone telling me I don’t need a STEM degree for tech writing is really encouraging. I can definitely go with your #2 option – there are quite a few processes I can write up that don’t require me to anonymize info.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        Being a BA involves a *lot* of writing and other analytical work. I’ve worked with many BAs and would say they are probably about 50/50 introverts to extroverts (and some of the best BAs I’ve worked with have been more introverted so I don’t think it’s a barrier!). It is pretty much transferable between most industries. IT or other systems knowledge is a definite bonus.

        You do have to be good at following through, completing things, hounding people (when necessary) for answers, meetings, business decisions, etc. And be organised. In general you wouldn’t make most of the decisions yourself as such but would often have to coordinate the people who do need to make the decisions.

        What do you like / are good at in 2nd line support? Solving problems and keeping track of a problem from start (or when it gets handed over from 1st line more like) to completion? There are always problems to solve as a BA…

        You could also look into project management but it may be the “face to face” requirements are too draining if you are quite introverted.

        1. Crowdsourcing Career*

          I would say I am averagely organized, leaning towards more organized if given the proper tools (and allowed to use my methods, which are not always conventional). This sounds like an interesting career path! Would you say there is much stats involved?

          1. Product Person*

            No stats involved for a IIBA style business analyst! Check out bridging-the-gap dot com — you will find people coming from all sorts of backgrounds into the profession. Typically writing requirements / acceptance criteria for sw projects.

          2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

            There are no “stats” involved as a BA if you mean stuff that would be taught in a degree for example. You would probably need to work out basic averages in Excel and stuff like that from time to time.

            Business analyst is very different from “data analyst” if that’s what you are thinking of.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Some technical writing positions need the BS–around here, there’s a lot of biotech & pharmaceuticals, and they’re looking for masters. But many do not—I’m doing well with a BS History and a programming certificate. A former co-worker was an internal hire from the test labs with *no* college degree. (Some companies won’t let people be promoted without it so research.)
      Business analysis & project management also are worth looking into–and even IT administration. You don’t have to DO it to manage it.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Or even writing the scripts for an IT call center…might be able to swing this as an internal change.

    10. Formerly in HR*

      Business analyst. The IT experience should help you assess requirements and translate them in developer lingo, the logical thinking ahould help you map out processes or identify dependencies. Communications helps for all the eliciting stuff you would have to do.
      Not all employers require certifcations, so you can start by taking a course (online or in person) to get the gist. Read around, check the Laura Brandenberg site, see how you can frame parts of your experience as BA work. Peruse job postings in your area to see what are the requirements and identify what you should develop.

    11. SecOps*

      I know it’s hard to stay in IT, I’ve been in IT now for many years. However, I’m financially more stable than any of my peers, bc it’s such a good field. I’ve decided to make a change within IT and go into Cybersecurity and am studying for my Security+ certification. It’s really fascinating and if you’re interested in Digital Forensics, you do alot of writing along with still tinkering…:) Best of luck to whatever you choose…

  33. Mimmy*

    Quandary: Applying for an entry-level job when you’ve previously applied for a higher-level job with the same employer

    When I completed an internship this past fall with an office related to the field I want to enter, the supervisor suggested that I start with an entry level, part-time position; she felt I wasn’t ready for a full-time position yet, which I agree with, but I can definitely get there.

    So imagine my delight when I saw such a job posting at the same university but at a campus closer to me. The pay is less than what I’m making now at my current part-time job, but my husband and I are okay with that because this job is more in line with my career path, for which I am pursuing a second Masters.

    Here’s the catch: I applied for a higher-level position with this same office late last summer. Here are my quandaries:

    1. The resume I’d submitted last summer includes a previous Master’s degree plus a certification. For this new job, I want to remove those credentials so that just my most relevant education is listed and so as not to appear overqualified. Will HR and/or the hiring manager notice? Also, if I were to fill out an official job application, I know I’ll have to include those credentials. Will that count against me?

    2. What is the best way to explain that I’m seeking a job that I’m probably overqualified for and that I’d be making less than I’m making now? I’m thinking something along the lines of that it’s closer to my career goals and that I’m currently in school for a degree in this field.

    3. Last time they asked me about my salary requirements. If they ask again, do I quote the hourly rate listed in the job posting?

    1. Mimmy*

      Forgot one question: Related to #2 – Is this something that I would put in my cover letter? Also in the cover letter, do I acknowledge that I’d recently applied for a different job with the same department?

    2. Anonymous Liz*

      Depending on the size of the university (which based on multiple campuses, I expect it’s large), I think it’s highly unlikely that they would notice the changes. I wouldn’t bring it up, and if they do happen to remember it, then you could explain in an interview in-person. Similarly, I wouldn’t frame things as being “over-qualified” but instead stress the alignment of the position with your career goals.

      I’m not sure about #3 – sorry!

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      For #3, I think it would be very reasonable to refer back to the wage listed in the job posting. “I saw this was listed at $X/hour – that works fine for me.”

  34. EmBee*

    Does anyone have any advice for working in the film industry? (Specifically in Canada, but any advice would help!) After reading posts on here about people not wanting office jobs, I want to change careers and I think this might be a good option for me. I am trying to move to Vancouver, so I think this would be a good time to switch. I’m not sure where to start in looking or applying for jobs, any help would be appreciated! Thank you :)

    1. in the file room*

      Hi there! I spent two years (2017-2018) working in film in Vancouver to help pay for college. Sorry this is so late, but I seem to have written a short essay…

      The truth is that film is still primarily a “who you know” business, which is going to be tough as you’re moving to the area. As a newbie, you’ll almost certainly have to start as a Locations PA. That means 15-hour days picking up the garbage, standing watching unlocked doors for hours on end, and being generally the bottom of the hierarchy. The days are long and hard. Be prepared for all weather – don’t cheap out on good rain gear, including rain pants! A backpack with extra layers, spare socks, etc is a good idea. Steel toed boots can also be very useful; comfortable shoes in general are essential. You often are standing for the entirety of your workday. There will almost certainly be heavy lifting.

      You don’t really apply for on-set jobs in the traditional way we think of here on AAM; it’s more like the way you might hire a tradesperson to work on your home. Your best bets for getting into the industry from your position are 1) the Facebook group called BC Crew Calls for PAs and 2) the union call listings (Directors’ Guild of Canada, which you can get into after working a certain amount). Both are resources that can connect you to available work. You’ll probably start out getting “day calls” where you’re only employed for one day. If you impress them, they might call you to come back, and you can play that out into good relationships that can lead to being employed for whole shows. I would also recommend taking the two-day BC Motion Picture Orientation class, which will explain things like safety, terminology, and basic set rules. It’ll help you adjust more quickly to this totally different world.

      If you can establish yourself as a reliable and likable PA (work hard, show up, and have a VERY positive attitude) you can probably get into one of the other departments based on your relationship with people working in them. This is easier if you have experience with construction, electrical equipment, driving large vehicles, etc. Costumes and makeup typically take people who have had at least some formal training in those fields. Don’t expect to get anywhere near a camera or the cast for quite a while (like, a few years).

      You will be MUCH more employable if you can drive and have a vehicle. Many shoots are in areas that are rural, remote, or otherwise hard to access via public transit, plus start times might be too early for the bus on some days. My earliest-ever start time was 4am. There are also sometimes overnight shifts, especially on Fridays (aka “Fraturdays”, since you get off between 6 and 10 am on Saturday). A lot of shows in Vancouver are sci-fi, so they do a LOT of night shoots.

      Remember that, for the majority of the crew, this is definitely a blue-collar environment. There will be a lot of swearing, and it’s much less formal than most white collar environments. Harassment policies are being improved in the wake of… everything… but there’s still some ways to go in terms of gender. The working environment is still primarily white and male. People often pass the time by flirting, which tends to have a negative impact on your relationship. Between that and the hours, the divorce rate is HIGH.

      If you commit to the film lifestyle, you won’t be able to make plans with people during the week. If you’re working full time, you won’t see your family for more than a brief period every day, if that. (My days used to be: drive to work, work 15 hours, drive home, shower, bed, repeat). You’ll be tired on the weekends, and you have to go to bed early on Sunday. It’s hard on your body. If you smoke, I’d advise trying to quit now, since the long idle hours tend to push people’s consumption WAY up. I don’t say these things to scare you, but to make sure you have a realistic idea of what it’s like. Contrary to popular belief, there’s very little romance in this industry.

      All that said… good luck! And be sure to report back how it goes!

      1. Easily Amused*

        My husband can corroborate everything In the file room said. He was an Assistant Director in Canada awhile back (having worked his way up). I was a VFX artist for 8 years (all computer work) which meant 60-80 hour 6/7 day weeks in a dark room. My sister once said to me, “you don’t have a job, you have a lifestyle and your lifestyle sucks.” The film industry is hard to break into, hard on relationships and any semblance of work/life balance and hard to break out of as in, if you eventually want to leave the industry to get back a more normal life, the skills you learned there are pretty difficult for outsiders to translate into what they need for any other industry. My husband and I both got out of the industry (he’s in IT, I’m a software developer). It took me a few years of being out before having 2 days off in a row every single week felt normal. This is not to dissuade you from following your dreams but just to give you my own experience of the realities of that dream.

    2. SMH RN*

      Not film specific advice (and you may know already) but just be aware of the cost of living in Vancouver and try to have some reserve money…2 of my siblings moved out there and found rent a major stressor. My sis currently pays double my detached house mortgage for a bachelor suite apartment. Her main advice-just find any job as soon as possible so you aren’t spending all your savings before you have a chance to get started.

  35. Sleepy*

    I’ve run into a problem in my new job. I have a sleep disorder that gets worse in winter, and I tend to be late…a lot. It’s not a butts-in-seats job, but I’ve only been here a month and stumbling in 30 minutes to an hour late is not a good look. I haven’t been spoken to by my boss about it (I’m not sure he’s even noticed, he’s here infrequently), but I’m wondering if I should bring it up proactively, and if so, what I should say. What do you think, AAM commentariat?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Definitely bring it up before someone else does. Ask your boss for a sit-down and tell him that you have a condition that makes it tough to wake up (or however you want to phrase it). Ask if it would be possible to adjust your hours; even if you have no set hours, often there are expected hours, and you’re asking for some flexibility in those. Also, if you have HR, speak to someone about the process for documenting a medical condition, for your own protection and peace of mind.

      1. Sleepy*

        Thank you! I forgot to mention that I’m a contractor through a staffing agency (they do temp-to-hire with all their staff in my department), so I’m not sure if I should talk to their HR or the HR of the company I’m contracting for.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That’s a key thing– I would talk to your staffing agency before you talk to your boss. Do you have some kind of manager there, the recruiter who placed you? Call them, say you have a question about a medical condition possibly affecting your schedule, and ask them who to speak to.

          1. Sleepy*

            I have two people I could potentially talk to – the local liaison (the staffing company is not based out of my town) who onboarded me and the person who originally placed me. I’m not sure which one I’m supposed to go to for issues like this – should I just reach out to the local guy?

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              Yes, try him first. Ask him what you should do. If it’s not his job, he will probably tell you who to talk to.

    2. rayray*

      This could be tricky, and I don’t really know the culture of your office. I don’t think it would be a bad idea to talk to your boss, and see if you can arrange for a more flexible work schedule, maybe go in an hour later and work an hour later.

      1. Sleepy*

        The culture is extremely relaxed and talks a good game about diversity and work-life balance. I haven’t been here long enough to know if that’s true. Do you have any suggestions for how to phrase it when I talk to him? I tend to over-apologize, almost grovel, when I’m embarrassed and know I’ve messed up, and I know that comes off poorly.

        1. rayray*

          I’m not the best at these kind of scripts, so maybe someone else can chime in. I think just being honest that it is a health condition and you’re struggling right now. Ask if there is any possibility that you could work a later schedule for a little while. Be clear that you don’t want it to impact your work or anyone else, but it will be better for your health and work productivity. Try to keep it breezy, you don’t need to over explain or apologize. You could try writing out what you might want to say, and then go back to it a little later and edit it. I get very anxious when approaching people, and it helps me to write out what I need to say so I don’t ramble or get flustered.

        2. CM*

          Here’s my suggestion: “Boss, I wanted to let you know that I’m under treatment for a sleeping disorder which is making it difficult for me to arrive at 8:30. I don’t think it has been affecting my work, and I’ve been making sure my work gets done on time [and staying later in the day / putting in additional hours from home / whatever you’re doing]. But I’m bringing this up because I take this job seriously and wouldn’t want you to think otherwise if I’m not here on time.”

          You could also say, “If you have any concerns or ideas for me, I’d be happy to hear them.”

          Or if you have a specific ask, you could say, “One solution I’ve thought of is to officially flex my hours so I’m here 10-6 instead. What do you think?” or “Would that be possible?”

          I have no experience with staffing agencies so that might change what you say — I’m assuming here that you’re having this conversation directly with your boss.

      1. Sleepy*

        Yes, I’ve seen several doctors over the course of six years, and am under the direct treatment of two. The issue is a combo of a circadian rhythm sleep disorder, sleep apnea, and garden-variety depression. So it’s been pretty hard to treat.

        1. CatPerson*

          Wow, that’s tough! I read a book recently, Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker, Ph.D., that was really eye-opening about how incredibly important sleep it. Good luck, I hope you conquer this!

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      This is a bit of a silly suggestion, but have you considered buying one of those seasonal affective disorder sun lamps and putting it on a simple lamp timer, so it turns on in your bedroom, say, half an hour or an hour before you need to be awake?

      1. Sleepy*

        Definitely have tried one of those sunrise lamps before! It drives my partner nuts but I might have to tell him to suck it up because it was pretty useful for me.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Assuming he’s on a similar schedule and you aren’t shorting him out of hours of sleep, sounds like he needs to suck it up.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      As a general principle, if there’s a problem that others are (reasonably) potentially going to notice, you should get in proactively and then that way you control the narrative.

      I can’t speak specially about sleep disorders, but I did (and do, ongoing) have a condition where the medication induces excessive yawning as a side effect in some people, including myself as it turned out. I could stifle the yawns a bit rather than it being a full-on open mouth head back yawnfest but was still perceivable by others. At the time I had to attend a lot of meetings and such so didn’t want the boss to think I was “bored” or “not engaged” with the meeting, for obvious reasons, so had the discussion with the boss proactively before it was brought up with me!

      Curious why you characterise it as “stumbling in […] late” since you don’t seem to have fixed hours. But if it’s a workplace where that would be ‘Noted’ (rather than just perceived as people having different working patterns) then I would definitely bring it up first.

      1. Sleepy*

        …you know, I don’t know why I say “stumbling in late” because it’s been quite clear to me that as long as I put my 40 hours in and get my work done, it doesn’t especially matter when I come in. People’s start times range from 6:30am to 10am, and they leave whenever. I might be making this into a bigger matter than it has to be, but I should probably still address it.

  36. CTT*

    I CANNOT get the other side on this deal to respond to me, and I am losing my mind. We’re all attorneys, and I have asked several times if there are any other documents that need to be signed for this closing, because my client is overseas and that makes over-nighting last-minute things almost impossible, and they 1) will not give us a straight answer and 2) will not respond to any of my emails and calls for clarification. I’m calling/emailing every half hour now because we close in a week, which feels like overkill, but I’m at a total loss on what else to do (short of driving the 8 hours to their office, which doesn’t feel efficient, but honestly this deal has made me so crazy that before I googled it I was like “what if it’s four hours away? I could do that.”)

    1. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      Ugh, I’m sorry that’s happening to you. My company has been in a frustrating situation as well. It’s not that the other side isn’t responding, but they’re asking for one. thing. at. a. time. They’ll review contracts or supporting documents, then send an email asking for one thing. We’ll respond as timely as we can, then 3 days will go by and they’ll ask for one more thing…and the whole process repeats. It doesn’t help that the person we’re communicating with is the assistant to the attorney and they don’t seem to understand the project at all. And we can’t get started until we have a signed contract…so we’re left twiddling our thumbs waiting on them!

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Long time attorney here. Emailing/calling every half hour is not just overkill — the other side is (and I’m sorry to say this) probably perceiving this as unhinged. There is no possible scenario where that kind of constant communication attempts would be productive, and if I were on the other side I would likely be advising my client that this doesn’t bode well for an ongoing business relationship. Stop, just stop. Give it a couple of days, then apologize for the overreaction — ask for an update and then wait. It sounds like the other side either isn’t as into the deal as your client is or is having second thoughts. If they want the deal to happen, they will do what needs to be done to make it happen. If they don’t, pestering them like this isn’t going to make them want it more — quite the opposite.

      1. Another JD*

        This. If you’ve sent the CYA to all relevant parties that your client’s original signatures cannot be guaranteed past X date, you’ve done your due diligence.

    3. NewReadingGlasses*

      Is there a local courier service in their city? If so, would it be practical to send one to them to ask questions in person by proxy?

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        At that point (someone showing up on my office doorstep) if I were on the other side I would be considering a TRO — wouldn’t actually get one, but I would be wondering if I should. CTT, in your own words you say “I’m losing my mind.” I trust that you meant that as a figure of speech, but unfortunately, the actions re outreach every half hour and considering showing up in person make it appear as if that is literally happening (“losing your mind”), which, if I were on the other side, wouldn’t feel safe. Please, take a big step back and a deep breath. Either this deal will happen or it won’t — “losing your mind” isn’t going to help it along. I say this from a place of experience — it can feel like the world is ending when your client needs a deal (ask me about trying to close a deal on September 11, 2001). But the world isn’t ending, and even if there are dire consequences, there might not be anything you can do about it. This too shall pass.

    5. Coverage Associate*

      Double check the weather and telecommunications situation in the other location. I was once in a similar situation, and it turned out that the other office was shut down due to snow.

  37. Amber Rose*

    I’m having to train a coworker on order entry and parts sales, but also I’m told that they want to move all that work and everything related to it over to sales and they are hiring someone pursuant to that.

    So one, I don’t understand why I’m training my coworker, who is not sales, on a time consuming and irritating process.

    And two, I’m now scared to death of what the future holds for me here, because order entry and sales is like 50% of my job. I should probably ask, but I’m too scared. I’m trying to take some encouragement from the fact that I’m cross training in quality control, but I’m only doing that because my one coworker is going on mat leave. Does that mean my job expires when she gets back?

    Ugh, I’m so anxious about all this. :(

    1. InsufficentlySubordinate*

      I’m so sorry you’re feeling anxious. I really understand why you’re afraid to ask (because I do that too) but, for both of us, it’s a relief to know one way or the other and a lot of times it’s not as bad as I thought. Or, alternatively, you can get ready and prepare for the bad if you know. Not knowing just feels like you’re frozen in place.
      So, I’m encouraging you to ask. Rehearse the words you want to say out loud in front of a mirror so you hear them and go to your boss. You can practice tone or whatever.
      Best wishes to you.

      1. valentine*

        The sooner you know, the sooner you can plan. It could be no one’s connected the dots between the training and the new hire, so asking about it could save you time and effort.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Have the discussion with your boss. Hope, and fear, are not a strategy. (Are you an anxious person in general? – Believe me I know how it is from your side! I’ve been there!)

      Often people recommend against this discussion because of the risk of “putting ideas in to your boss’s head” if they weren’t considering the course of action anyway. In this case, if it really is a thing, it’s far enough advanced already that it is happening and it’s not just something being vaguely considered as a possibility.

      What does your co-worker do currently? Short term (or long term) they are off-loading the order entry stuff to your co-worker – why?

      If you have the sympathetic ear of bosses I would suggest you propose that co-worker takes on the order entry etc “new role” in sales and that you move over into quality control full time, if that’s something you want to pursue in the future.

      When your maternity leave colleague returns is there a possibility for you to continue with QC alongside? Or take on something else? Companies always need more QC.. and someone who’s shown she (?) is adaptable and able to take on new things will always be valuable!

      At the least you would have gained some additional things to add to your CV and so on, if it comes to the worst.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        Sorry I hit ‘submit’ before finishing the thoughts!
        I would start looking around, if I were you. Do you (I think I recall reading from your previous comments) work in the ‘city’? The big smoke?
        I think you would be greatly reassured to know that you have options, not really specific companies but just the amount of approaches.

  38. merp*

    Question re: being young and cashing out a pension?

    I worked for a university for a little over a year in Texas which means my retirement contributions went to the Teachers Retirement System of Texas. I’m in the library field so I may very well end up working for another public university in Texas in the future and could add to that contribution then. But I’m very happy in my non-academia job right now and have no immediate plans to return to a university here. (The public one in my city now, well, the library has gone through 3 re-orgs in 2 years and is a bit of a trash fire based on what I hear from employees anyway). So should I just take that money back? Can I even do that? Or leave it there, and for what reasons? Pensions still confuse me a bit, would love some advice from someone wiser than me.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I have a pension fund from a job I left seven years ago, and it’s just sitting there, for a couple of reasons. Mostly, I leave it because if I want to withdraw, the tax penalties are massive. The pension was separate from my 401k, which I roll over every time I change jobs, and the company actually ended the program after I had been there for about six years, so I was fully vested but the company stopped contributing.

      However… forgive the question, but are you talking about a true pension, or a 401k or a 403b or some other type of fund? Because the answers will be different.

      There should be someone at the Teachers Retirement System– or their bank– who can walk you through your options. Try giving them a call and talking to someone.

      1. merp*

        Fair question – I believe it is properly a pension, definitely not a 401k and I believe not a 403b. Thanks for your advice!

    2. Enough*

      You have to see what the rules for the pension are. But usually you can get your contributions back. That said if you did not pay taxes on the money you will owe it when you take the money. You might want to look into rolling the money over to an IRA. Regular IRA if you didn’t pay taxes on it or a Roth IRA if you did pay taxes.

    3. OperaArt*

      If this is a pension rather than a 401k, usually the older you are when you take the pension the more money you get.
      The pension systems I’m familiar with base the monthly or lump sum payouts on a combination of three factors: years in service, maximum salary/wage while at the job, and age when you activate the pension. You’ve only been there a year, so the first two factors are almost irrelevant.

    4. sandlapper*

      First, check to see if you are vested. Generally you need to work several years. Also, are they any other benefits included in the pension? I’m vested in a state pension and am keeping the money there even though I left the job years ago. I’ll only receive a small monthly payment when I retire but I’ll get health insurance which is more important to me.

    5. Disco Janet*

      I did this in order to get a down payment on a house. You have to pay taxes on it twice, which is the big downside. They took tax out when they gave me my payout and then at the end of the year I had to claim it as income and it increased my taxes due. I still think I would do it again because I really like my house but I would set more aside for tax season. Hope that makes sense.

      1. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

        You don’t actually pay taxes twice. Some taxes are withheld when you withdraw the money, and then when you file your taxes the correct amount, including any early withdrawal penalties, is calculated. If you paid enough taxes when it was first withdrawn it will wash out, but if there is additional tax or you have to pay the 10% penalty, you’ll owe more at that time.

        IOW, it’s the same *amount* no matter what – just a question of how much gets paid when.

    6. Catsaber*

      I believe you can withdraw from the pension, but there will be tax implications, so google “withdrawing pension taxes” or something like that. Also there is a lot of information on the TRS website about how to withdraw and what all the implications are.

      Since you contributed to TRS, I’m assuming you were considered a state employee, and therefore have state service credit. You could get another job at a state institution – not necessarily a university. You would then be contributing to ERS. I’m not sure how exactly TRS and ERS work together, but there is is info out there. I believe you can transfer your TRS credit to ERS, but you’ll need to review the information on the TRS and ERS websites for details.

      So you may not ever work for a university again, but you might work for the state of Texas, so that’s something to consider. Personally I would not withdraw anything from a retirement account unless I had a desperate need for the money, because of tax penalties. But you might be able to do a rollover or something like that, if you choose to withdraw it. But just know that you would only be withdrawing your own contributions, because you would not be vested after just one year.

      1. Catsaber*

        Also – talking to a financial planner: check to see if your current employer offers free planning/counseling sessions with their retirement provider. Often, you don’t even have to have an account with the retirement group in order to use their services. Although I have a TRS pension, my university also offers some accounts through Fidelity, so I was able to talk with a Fidelity rep, and it was extremely helpful.

        1. merp*

          Hey wanted to say thanks for this suggestion! I sort of thought something like a financial planner would be way out of my league but you were right and my work connected me with someone this afternoon. Never would have thought they would connect me to someone I didn’t plan to make an account with, so really appreciate you mentioning it!

    7. fposte*

      It’s best to read the specific pension plan’s documentation. However, your choices may be cash out (which means a portion beyond your contribution will be taxed) vs. rollover to another retirement fund (still tax-deferred). Since it was only a year it shouldn’t matter a ton even if you get back in the system later; it’s just that that year probably won’t count toward your final total. Are there annual increases? If not, I’d probably move it.

    8. Anonymous Liz*

      I think you’ve gotten a lot of good advice here, but I’d add that you can often roll your TRS to similar programs in different states. If you think you may eventually end up as a state university employee elsewhere, I’d leave it!

    9. GigglyPuff*

      I worked at a university for a couple years in a temp position but got all the benefits including teachers’ retirement system. Usually when you leave, you can leave it, take it (but will have to pay the taxes), or mine allowed me to roll it over into a 401(k), which my next job offered an optional one. I took that option.

      If you leave it, it’ll gain the interest of the account but still probably won’t be a lot when you do retire. The other reason to leave it, is if there’s a possibility of going to back to work for the state, and already having a jump start on the retirement account.

      1. Mellow*

        GigglyPuff alludes to a great point: if you cash out your pension, the state considers you retired. Should you get hired at another job in that same state, you won’t be able to contribute to another pension fund.

    10. Tmarie*

      My cousin had 5 years in at a state job in Washington. She cashed it out in her early 20’s. In her late 20’s she started a job in a different agency, but still a state job in Washington. She’s lost out on 10% of an annual pension.

      Keep the money there, who knows if in 5 years you’ll go back to a state job.

    11. CatPerson*

      Since there are all kinds of pensions and different rules depending on your employer, it would be best to talk to a financial planner since most decisions regarding pensions are irrevocable.

    12. lost academic*

      Talk to a financial advisor, you may need to roll it into another type of retirement account to avoid substantial penalties.

    13. Rick Tq*

      Don’t cash it out, roll it over to a personal IRA so you can keep the money tax-deferred. You still take the money out of the pension plan but keep all the tax benefits of pre-tax withholding of your retirement savings.

    14. TL -*

      For TRA, it can sit there penalty free for five years, then you have to roll it over or (I think) lose it.
      Rolling it over is really easy. Open a Roth or IRA online (I used Fidelity), print out, complete, and get your IRA company to sign the TRA rollover form (Google it), then mail it to TRA in Round Rock. They’ll send you the check to deposit into your new account, then you mail the check to your IRA company.

      Easy as! I just did it this September, used the help number for Fidelity to fill out the form, and the help number for TRA to make sure I had the process right (I did.) It took longer because it’s all snail mail but the only snag was that I didn’t have a Fidelity office nearby so I had to mail the form in to Wisconsin with a letter to get signed.

      2. TL -*

        Final comment: I’m assuming this doesn’t vary depending on where you work – because I just went through the TRS website – but I think mine was ultimately through the UT system if that helps.

  39. Captain Kirk*

    So I had an “oh no you didn’t” at work this week. My girlfriend and I broke up just after Thanksgiving, and so to replace the photo of her and me in my cubicle, I put up some family photos from a year back: my parents, my sibling, me, you get the idea. This was back in early December.

    This week, my manager (who’s old enough to be my mother) says to me, “Those family pictures you put up? Your dad’s really handsome! He looks like [prominent former state politician]. I’ve always thought that [prominent former state politician] was handsome!”

    My parents and I got a good laugh out of it, but at the same time, now I want to take down my photos. I’m a guy, in my late 20s—*why* would you tell me that??

    1. Zoe Karvounopsina*

      …at least your dad *isn’t* prominent former state politician? My father occasionally tells the tale of a friend of his who was sat next to a young woman at a political party fundraiser, and said, “Where are you from? Oh, well if you’re from Blarghshire you must know X! Good old X, shame about the drinking problem….hope he didn’t grab you, he could get a bit dodgy when he was drunk…and then there was *that* party…”

      Young woman: “Yes, I do know X. He’s my father.”

      Epic silence for the remainder of the meal.

    2. WhatsHappenin*

      It was one comment? Sounds like she was just trying to connect with you. I had always found these types of comments about personal items intrusive, but as long as it’s not a constant irritant (like every time she walks by your cubbie she swoons over your dad), I’d just let it go.

      I also try not to put anything like that up at work and stick to silly things I like (I collect little lucky cat figurines) which starts conversations without being too personal.

      1. MoinMoin*

        Agreed. I hope this isn’t insensitive, but people say goofy things sometimes and if it’s not a pattern and not heinous I’d just chalk it up to a weird one-off and forget about it.

    3. Veryanon*

      LOL…this story reminds me of when I used to keep a picture of me and my mother taken on my wedding day on my desk (when I was still married). My much older, creepster male boss, who had been married/divorced three times and was currently on wife #4, stopped by and asked me who the attractive lady was in the picture. (It was clearly my mother; we look a lot alike, I was wearing a wedding dress and she was dressed as the mother of the bride.)
      Me: Oh, that’s my mother.
      Boss: She’s a fine looking woman. Is she married?
      Me: Yes, to my dad.
      Boss: Happily?
      Me: Yes.
      Boss: Oh, that’s a shame. She’s a fine looking woman.
      JFC

    5. ELM*

      For goodness sake, she was just being chatty. Don’t be so touchy! Or are women old enough to be your mother not allowed to find anybody handsome? *rolls eyes*

      1. KoiFeeder*

        I mean, by all accounts my dad is handsome, but I don’t really need people telling me that? I would find it unnerving and would consider it a conversation killer more than a conversation starter regardless of who it came from.

          1. KoiFeeder*

            Laughing is for funny things. Why is it funny that someone is telling me their opinion on my dad’s appearance unasked for?

            1. Shirley Keeldar*

              Honestly, I’m just really baffled…can you explain a little more? Did the comments feel salacious to you–i.e., verging into sexual harassment territory? Or did you find it insulting that she praised your dad’s appearance rather than yours? Or do you not like the local politician and were exasperated that your boss connected him with your dad? Or something else I’m not thinking of? I’m genuinely seeking more information here. To me your boss’s comments read as slightly goofy, but nothing worse than that. Maybe you can help me see what I’m missing.

              1. KoiFeeder*

                I’m not OP! You want Captain Kirk. I’m just a humble autistic who loves koi.

                But since you asked my opinion, it feels rather invasive to the person being discussed and makes me feel like the person talking to me is giving me waaaaay too much information when people tell me what they think of someone’s attractiveness- even when those people aren’t related to me, even if it’s just a friend turning to me and pointing out that a person walking across the street has a nice butt or something. When someone does this and involves my family, I (irrationally, I know) feel like they’re making a threat against that family member.

                1. Avasarala*

                  I can see feeling weirded out by “sexy” or “hot”, but “handsome”? That’s pretty neutered as far as appearance compliments go. That’s Grandma-talking-about-the-neighbor’s-son level. “What a handsome young man, and he works so hard too.” Compare to “what a beautiful little girl you have.”

                  It’s one thing if they’re talking about the family member’s sex appeal or directly hitting on them or saying “they’re my type” kind of stuff, but handsome/beautiful is a pretty generic compliment. I think your take is a bit extreme.

                3. KoiFeeder*

                  @Avasarala
                  I don’t process tone of voice or body language. I have no idea if someone means handsome in the grandma way or the Mr. Idris Elba way. Trying to contextualize the meaning of appearance-based statements based only on what people say is drastically harder than anyone thinks it is!

  40. LTL*

    Is anyone familiar with the data science bootcamp at Metis?

    It looks like it has a good reputation and they have some prerequisites (so they don’t accept just anyone). I know someone who was able to land a data science job out of a bootcamp but it was a different one (NYC data science).

  41. anonybear*

    Just applied for a job that would be at an organization I’ve loved for years, in an industry that I’d loooove to transition into. It’s a senior leadership position, would require moving my family 3 hours away, and generally would be a huge life shift. My husband is on board, the application is in, and I’m putting my request for an interview out into the universe. Good vibes welcome! <3

    4. Anon for this one*

      Good luck!
      Please be aware of the impact on your husband as a presumable “trailing spouse”. If he can’t find a job in your new location I guess you will be the sole breadwinner? It may be great but please do think about how the dynamics will change if you are the one earning all the money. And how much of a psychological burden that may place on you.

  42. rayray*

    Curious to hear perspective on this.

    Why is it, that we have to hit this certain number of hours worked, or wait patiently in our seats until the clock tells us it’s acceptable to go home? I find it so bizarre how so many people have so little to do, they pretend to be busy most of the day, vs just getting work done and leaving when said tasks are finished. I’m treated like a child at work. My dictated hours are 9:00 -5:00 – I don’t have clients, and there is no actual logic or reason behind this, it’s just the way it is. I find it absoltuely absurd that if I am done at 4:15, I can’t just leave, I have to pretend to be busy, do busy work, or just fiddle around until the designated hour. I totally get if I finished at 1:30 that my boss would give me more work to do, but I just don’t follow this idea that we need to have our butts in our seat and be physically present. I know so many people who will play games, browse online, chit chat with coworkers etc until the clock says they can go home.

    2. WhatsHappenin*

      From a managers perspective, I’d want to know if you had downtime as this probably means you are ready for more complex tasks or taking on more workload. If you are afraid of having that conversation with your manager because it might result in more (busy) work, look for ways to fill your time that’s more productive.

      Creating positive uses of your time that benefit the company shows you are a self-starter and takes the burden off your boss to create more (busy) work for you.

      Perhaps now is the time to take stock of what your priorities are for your career? Do you want to be in a job like the one you are currently in for the long haul?

    3. Admin of Sys*

      I mean, the point of salary is to be able to leave early if your work is done. So most salaried workers should get the flex time to leave when tasks are done, to balance when they can’t leave because tasks aren’t done, even if it’s past the 5p cut off. But if you’re hourly, then you’re being paid for the time you are at work.
      That said, there are almost always work related things that can be done. I think having down time for chitchat and distractions at work is critical, and if corp culture is to have everyone delay that ’till the last hour of work, that’s fine. But if it’s more of a ‘nothing to do, lets play candycrush’ then that’s a failure of imagination. There are almost certainly work related journals to read, or things to study, or youtube clips about how to use excel better, or email backlogs to file. If half the office has nothing to do for 45 minutes, grab a 30 minute long class on good powerpoint techniques and host an impromptu learning session in a conference room. There’s almost always /something/ to do that’s not ‘wasting time until you can go home. ‘

    4. Campfire Raccoon*

      Every job I’ve been at, ever.

      I usually take over all the crap no one else wants to do – because they’re inefficient as all get out – automate said task, then efficiency myself right out of a job.

      It’s annoying.

    5. Chronic Overthinker*

      I have a butt in seat type of job. If/when the phone rings, I need to answer it. If I’m not there to answer it, that’s not a good sign. And if it isn’t ringing, I still need to be here in case it does. Are you sure there’s nothing you could be doing productivity-wise? You could learn a new skill related to the job, do some tedious back-burner stuff that has been put off, do some much needed filing, clean your office space, or even create a list of things to be done if you got hit by a bus tomorrow.

      I do admit there are times where I don’t have much to do so I set up appointments for the rest of the week, get my shopping list in order et cetera, or even do some minor online browsing/gaming. For me, (and my boss) as long as it doesn’t interfere with productivity, have at it. However, if you’re salaried and you don’t have any additional commitments that day, get your work done and go home.

    6. Entry Level Marcus*

      I don’t know your particular role, but for a lot of office jobs part of what you’re being paid for is being available to your team/manager during normal business hours. In some roles this can be done remotely, but in others not so much.

      I share some of your frustration, though. I’ve never had a job that consistent had 8 hours of work for me every day. I think part of it is that our work norms developed around workplaces like factories and mines where being present for 8 hours really mattered. But now, even in the white collar world, the norm that you’re at work for 8 hours has stuck.

      1. KR*

        This is what I’m thinking. Sometimes I’m done with work before my 8hrs is up or don’t have anything else I can do until x and y is approved or whatever, but I’m paid to be available to my team in case they need me even if it’s 10 mins before I leave.

      2. Mr. Shark*

        I think your first point is right now. It may be that you are sitting there at 2pm thinking you are done for the day, but what if someone needs something at 2:30 and you’re not around? You are being paid to be available and be present if needed, even if you manage to finish your work for the day.
        My work seems like it ebbs and flows. Sometimes I’ll be really busy on a project and wonder how I’m going to ever finish on time, and others I’ll think once I finish this project, what am I going to do for 8 hours a day. But something always comes up.
        I think of the flexibility of being exempt is more that if you need to leave early one day for an appointment, or come in late because the car wouldn’t start, you don’t get docked your time. Not necessarily that you can just leave early because you finished all your tasks.

    7. NaoNao*

      I think it’s totally ridiculous myself, it’s very much a hold-over from days of the wired/landline phones, and papers and needing to be in the physical office until 5 or later.

      However, I think the real reason is that if everyone went to a “productivity is the only metric” we’d see a bunch of unintended consequences:

      1) people would be working more hours, not fewer, as they’d be expected to be the MOST productive possible

      2) People would be leaving at 12PM every day or even earlier and it would be a race to the bottom to complete as little work as possible before calling it good

      3) Meetings and other collaborative work would be very hard to schedule as most of the office would be empty at random and off-aligned schedules

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Holdover from history when people worked manual labor.

        My friend experiences #1. Her job is metrics-based – clear, regimented and well designed metrics from what she say, but she ends up working more than 8 hours a good number of days. She does have flexibility to take her kids to and from school but she also works later on those days because of the time “missed” during to day to reach her metrics goal.

        But also #2. Some folks are dedicated and others are not. The management fear that most of the masses are not dedicated and would do as little work as possible to leave as early as possible so they require butts in seats.

    8. Impska*

      As a boss, I have plenty of minor tasks that I could assign to someone if I knew they had an extra 45 minutes a day available. Often these tasks are necessary, but of low priority, so I’m not going to dump them on someone’s schedule if they don’t have time. They’re just lurking there waiting for someone to tell me, “I ran out of work and have some free time.”

      Of course, you don’t want to tell me that. You want to leave early as a reward for not pretending to be busy. I get it. It seems like you’d be punished for admitting you have time available. But actually, if everyone told me they had 45 extra minutes, I would actually have no extra tasks available and would be able to send you home early.

      It’s the Prisoner’s Dilemma. If you admit you have time, but no one else does, then only you get stuck with extra work while everyone else just plays around. If no one admits they have time, everyone has to stay until 5. If everyone admits they have time, we run out of work to assign and you go home early. Of course, there is also a risk that we never run out of work, and everyone ends up giving up their play time and still have to stay until 5.

    9. Retail not Retail*

      My job is hourly but we have the clock rounding version of this problem. We can’t work up until the exact hour – we need to return tools and vehicles and get to the time clock building. We also have to finish our task and clean up etc etc – we definitely get back to our staging area by :45.

      But we have to wait around the breakroom or outside until :00. Sometimes our boss is already gone!

      What makes this harder is in the morning, we’re expected to clock in as soon as :53. I will rebel some days and clock in at :55.

    10. Grumpy Kat*

      This has been the biggest issue with my new job. (Background: I’m non-exempt/hourly, and this is my first office job). Adjusting to an office job when I’ve come from more flexible workplaces (research) has been tough. I’ll also admit that a majority of this is because of my manager. My manager is deadset on me working 8-5 every day with no flexibility. So most of the time I’m sitting there twiddling my thumbs, wishing I could just use my lunch break to go home, and avoid spending an hour in traffic. (And skipping lunch completely to leave early is not an option).

      I’m so bored at work because I’m forced to be here during that full time that I completed our entire professional development catalog in 2 months. There’s no possibility of taking on new projects because my manager is such a control freak that she refuses to give us any of her duties, even though she’s stressed out right now with her new project from the higher ups. I’m so bored at work I’ll even spend my work from home day looking for new jobs and studying and let my email and calls pile up, just so I’ll have something to do when I come into the office.

  43. Heffalump*

    Some years ago my then manager was telling me about some of the people who’d had my job before me. He said one guy in particular had the faults of youth: If he had a fight with his girlfriend, it would affect the quality of his work for a couple of days.

    This got me thinking about what my faults of youth had been, and I came up with: 1) expecting to have things my way, and 2) expecting the employer to take away workplace frustrations.

    So … what were your faults of youth in the workplace?

      2. P. Beesley*

        Guilty of this.

        Also learned the hard way that my coworkers are not my friends. Just because you spend most of the day together, you get happy hours together, and talk about personal things, does not mean they are your friends and you can count on them to have your back. At the end of the day, everyone is friendly to everyone because they have to be.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      1. Expecting my manager to magically know when I was having trouble with something.
      2. Thinking that new tasks could be added to my list without displacing anything already on my list.
      3. Assuming I was there to help, but that the *real* responsibility was for the grown-ups.

      And one that I don’t think I was guilty of, but which I see all the time now: assuming that it’s your manager’s job to serve as your external memory bank, instead of taking notes and internalizing information.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I thought that I should be privy to all information. If I was given a task to do, I thought I should be given the whole 10 year history of the project when all I needed to do was make copies. If someone moved between departments, I thought I deserved to know why. When rumors of downsizing surfaced, I thought my manager was a big jerk for not telling everyone that it was in the works…even though there were no decisions made.
      It took a while to understand that there is a hierarchy of people and information in organizations. And my job is to just do my job.

    5. Jellyfish*

      Not realizing that coworkers aren’t friends, no matter how friendly they might be. That was a rough lesson.

      2. P. Beesley*

        This was the toughest lesson. I currently working in my first office job with coworkers who are all older than me by 5-7 years (I’m 25), and it’s been tough. My previous jobs were with people my age because they were jobs I held in college, and right out of college. We all had each other’s backs and worked as a team. I can’t say the same thing about my coworkers here. This place is cliquish, and my coworkers are catty.

    6. Leslie Knope*

      Also kind of in-line with treating coworkers as friends. I have a sarcastic sense of humor and a big common trait of my friends is that we all speak in sarcasm, wit, and give each other a hard time. Not that we’re constantly trying to out-smart or out-wit each other, we just all have a tendency to feed off one another and have fun. I like hanging out with the friends who challenge my mind!

      I made the mistake of thinking a coworker could understand that sarcastic sense of humor. I hurt her feelings without realizing it, our manager said something to me in my review. He didn’t get onto me or anything, just told me that not everyone can keep up. Since then I’ve tried to maintain a fun sense of humor at work, but leave sarcasm mostly for social settings.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Ooo, I’ve seen lots of problems when newbees bring in their private sense of humor. Yeah, all their friends watch South Park and Sunny in Philadelphia and they all crack jokes in that style and everyone laughs, but the whole world isn’t like that. It can be hard to realize that those jokes are bad, bad, bad in the workplace.

      2. Stornry*

        oh, me too! I have what I call a “dry” sense of humor that is often taken as sarcasm and have inadvertently offended someone more than once. I’ve used that as an example to all new hires when I talk about interpersonal skills and tell them if you have a problem with someone or something they said or did, to bring it up rather than stew – most likely it was unintentional but they won’t know it bothered you if you don’t tell them. Then if they do it again, that’s the time to tell someone higher up in the food chain.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        YUP. Embarrassing, but an important lesson I learned early on when my supervisor called me on my less than professional reaction to feedback.

    9. Bernice Clifton*

      Thinking that if I wasn’t specifically told No than it must be okay, and that if you are the *only one* at your workplace doing something, like for example listening to music at your desk or not using the IM program for urgent things, you are going to look out of step with everyone.

    10. Holy Moley*

      I didn’t know two weeks notice was a thing. Went in to my first job and said it was my last day. Didn’t understand why my boss was angry. Ahh youth!

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        Similar experience: I had no concept of how much effort goes into hiring. Didn’t understand why my boss was upset when I left a job after about a month. There was nothing particularly wrong with the job, I was just never planning on staying any longer than that.

    11. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I expected The Rules to be followed at work. I ended up in a ton of workplaces where we had to work off the clock, handle chemicals without safety equipment, deal with being harassed and threatened with no recourse, go hours and hours without so much as a bathroom break, violate all sorts of labor and OSHA and safety codes.

      I spent a lot of time thinking I was too good to put up with this garbage. Well, I wasn’t. That’s the economy now. I should have put up and shut up.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I mean, I think those are all pretty reasonable standards to have, and I don’t think it’s childish to assume that your employer will follow the law with respect to your employment and safety. Your reality might have been that you had to put up with it (or still have to), but I think there’s an important difference between “this sucks and isn’t right, but I’ve reviewed my options and I’m stuck here right now” and “this is normal and all jobs are like this, it is foolish to imagine better things.”

    13. Pat Benetar's Cover Band*

      I suffered from the worst fault – telling coworkers about things other coworkers had said. Ie “supervisor seemed real mad on Tuesday that you didn’t do xxx”
      Funnily enough, it was a habit I had picked up at home, where no-one would directly address issues with each other, and we were to interpret emotions and needs based on unspoken requests.
      Learning the hard way (at work) that this is not how adults act, made me also recognize the disfunction of my family.

      1. Minimax*

        Omg me too!
        Then I would get in serious trouble and not understand why people were pissed I was helping.

    14. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      1. Laziness. PFC von Klinkerhoffen
      did the bare minimum to get the job done, and skipping anything skippable.

      2. Arrogance. Not recognising that senior people in an organisation typically got there because they have something you don’t (qualifications, experience, reputation, relationships, goodwill) so your opinion is not worth the same as theirs, and you don’t get to choose.

      Nowadays I take more pride in my work, and I know where my expertise does and doesn’t lie, and where my authority/standing does and doesn’t reach.

    16. Pennalynn Lott*

      Getting visibly agitated when someone would “interrupt” me to ask me to perform a task for them. I was an admin. It was my job to perform tasks that certain people asked me to do. But I’d gotten it in my head that I could plan my day a certain way and anything that changed the plan was an unnecessary annoyance. I didn’t want to have to shift gears or prioritize tasks. Which, um, was literally my job. ::facepalm::

      Also, that one IT job that I thought it was cool to bring beer to work, stash it in my desk, and start drinking at about 3:30 because I was so clever. My desk was in a huge IT supply room and I was the only one in there. That was also the job where I had the only key to a decent-sized storage room and I’d go in there and take naps throughout the day. It was back in the days of pagers and, as IT support, I spent large chunks of my day all over the building installing things and helping people so if someone needed me, they’d page me and I’d head their way. Simple enough, then, to stash a travel pillow in the storage room and sleep with the pager in my hand.

      I look back at my behavior in both of those jobs and cringe. What was I thinking?!?

    17. Chronic Overthinker*

      For me it was two things:
      1) expecting management to “hold my hand” through training/development. I’ve learned since then that the only person who is going to help you get ahead is YOU and you need to show management that you can move up/get promoted.

      2) expecting everyone else had the answers to questions. I’ve learned since then that you have to/need to do your own due diligence and research something before asking for help. If you’ve actually done your research and still haven’t found your answer, then that’s the time you can ask for assistance.

    18. Anon for this one*

      I openly chastised others for not being as committed as I was to education and learning and so on — and criticised them publicly (in front of the team) for having taken the easy way out the night before by watching “dead end tv program of the moment” rather than as I was studying for a degree.

    19. JobHunter*

      Thinking years in = competence. Working in academia for a while broke me of that.

      I had a chance to see a reflection of younger me in another young (early 20s) manager. He said to his older employee, “I have eight years of experience at llama yodeling, I think I know what I am doing.” I recalled my own conversations with older-than-me coworkers and cringed so hard my shoulders hurt.

    20. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Not thinking through project milestones & time lines so the time before a delivery was like finals week.
      And skirts that were too short. (In retrospect I am screamingly glad for the exec admin who pointed this out to mr. I ran across one in storage recently…and it looks perfect on my middleschooler. Oops.)

      1. Windchime*

        Oh dear lord. I was a grocery store checker in 1981 and my shift started at 4pm. Some how I thought it was an OK idea to smoke a lot of really good pot an hour or so before my shift. It was really, really hard to focus and hold it together. This was in the days before scanners, so you had to know all the codes for the produce, punch in all the prices, etc. Somehow I made it through my shift.

    22. Chaordic One*

      When I was younger I really found myself getting bored with doing the same thing over and over again. Looking back now, I realize that that was part of the job and if I had to do over I would cope with that aspect of the job better and accept it. Back then, and even to a degree today, I struggled with frustration with the lack of meaningful recognition (in terms of salary, especially) from the workplace.

      Several time I allowed myself to get caught up in some of the personal workplace drama that was going on and that was just stupid of me. I allowed myself to be one of the “mean girls” and I really regret that and would never do that again.

    23. CatMintCat*

      Thinking I could have some control over the direction of my career.

      I changed careers later into something where I did have some say in what happened to me.

    24. Mellow*

      I wish I’d been more patient with elderly people, and that I’d stood up for co-workers who were made fun of by other co-workers.

  44. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’m transitioning to a new role within my organization. Any tips on how to be my best? It’ll still have a lot of the llama herding that I’m not good at in there, but hopefully more llama tabulating which I hope I can become good at

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Set clear, measurable goals with your (new?) manager. MAYBE communicate these goals to your (new?) team and those you would work with outside of your immediate team. Communicating to your team is NOT asking for their permission or feedback, it’s to keep them on the same page with you and your manager about what you will (and won’t) be accomplishing.

      If you get any pushback on your goals from your team, say in a warm tone, “NewManager and I discussed and set my goals, so we’re not looking to change them now. As I get settled into my new role, I’ll see if it’s something to NewManager about.”

  45. Now in the Job*

    I work in a corporation in a department with about 16 people, and it more or less can be divided two ways: licensed attorneys and staff; or by area of work. I am an attorney, and my area of work is such that I only work with other licensed attorneys ; I don’t ever work with the staff because they support a different part of the department.

    One of the staff members is someone I think I have a fair amount in common with. His wife, most definitely. They live near my husband and I, and I’m always down to meet new people who share our interests. But I have no idea whether it’s appropriate or not to try to strike up a friendship. We don’t work together, I don’t supervise him, and I don’t forsee it ever happening because of our specialties. His work is on the enforcement side, mine on the transaction side.

    Would it be OK to try to get together outside of work and meet his wife/hang out with them? Maybe get dinner at a restaurant not too far from where we live that’s related to our mutual interests? Or is that just Not Appropriate given the work status differences?

    1. Mid*

      I don’t really see how it would be inappropriate. I’m not sure about the status thing (though I work in the legal field and I know (from experience) that in some firms Lawyers Do Not Talk To The Admins) but if you don’t work together, and aren’t his supervisor, I’m not sure what kind of conflicts there could be.

    2. RagingADHD*

      If he’s relatively senior and in an unrelated department, I could see it.

      If he’s a paralegal or admin, this would be very much Not Done. If he reports to an attorney on the enforcement side, that would be awkward too.

      Of course, if you run into each other outside of work while pursuing your mutual interests, that would be a more natural opportunity to strike up a closer acquaintance.

  46. Myrin*

    Nudes at work! It’s not what you think!

    So as some of you might know, I work part-time as a shelf stocker at a drugstore, and half a year ago, my little sister, who is a retail professional, started working there as a regular, fulltime employee, meaning that, unlike myself, she not only gets to deal with stocking shelves but all the other fun retail stuff, too (and it really is fun to her most of the time, I’m not being sarcastic here).

    Part of that “stuff” is helping people with the… photo machines or photo stations, I guess? No idea what they’re called, neither in German nor English. You can connect your phone or USB or similar to them and can then print out your photos on fancy paper or add cutesy effects to them and what-have-you. And there’s basically always people who have some kind of problem there, whether that be something simple like “I don’t know how to connect my phone to this screen” or something more complicated like “it suddenly only shows satanic symbols and won’t let me move my feet”. And in such cases, they usually rope some hapless employee into it.

    And recently, my family was talking about a case where my sister was helping a particularly stubborn customer (who, as a total aside, is married to some famous old rich guy which we found out because my mum recognised the customer’s name and then googled the guy and my sister recognised the customer in the pictures she took with her rich old husband on the red carpet wtf) and she just told her story and then casually mentioned “… and then I had to scroll past all of her nudes first to finally get back to that original picture…” and I swiveled around and basically yelled “HER NUDES?!” in her face. And my sister just shrugged all nonchalantly and then.

    Well.

    Then I found out that this is apparently a regular occurrence and that a big part of the population apparently keeps nude selfies on their devices and they don’t even care about poor drugstore employees accidentally seeing them. What an astounding world we live in.

    1. Ada Lovelace*

      Yes, this is a thing. People just don’t think about it. My sister started working at Walgreens in the photo center at 17 and she was kept from interacting with certain customers because her lead and manager knew they had nudes on their phones/cameras. She also has stories about telling customers she can’t print nude children, even if they are yours. After she was promoted to lead, she called police on a customer because he had nude children in pictures to be printed. That one was actually child abuse.

      1. valentine*

        Is she not obliged to maintain confidentiality? Is it no big deal if they ask not to interact with nudes? Do they have minors interacting with these images?

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Just think of a time long ago when you had to drop off all your nudie pictures to be developed by some unsuspecting person. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case with your sister’s customer, but yeah.

      Photo clerk flipping through pictures to quality check: “picnic, cat, thumb covering something, nude, grandma’s birthday,..”

      1. eshrai*

        That was me they dropped their film off with. I worked in a one hour photo lab in the days of yore, when film was law of the land and digital was just being born. And yeah, we got some interesting photos. General rule was, we can print nudes as long as they weren’t “obscene” or “sexual” in nature. There was one role with a 40 year old hooker in nothing but chaps. Not too bad. We did have to call the cops on one set of photos. A teenage boy was developing nude photos of his 10 year old step-sister. The cops ended up letting it go though, made me sad that they didn’t at leas have CPS check into it.

        1. Anon for this*

          Are you in a position to know what the cops did or didn’t say to cps etc.? I work in a related field to this, and in certain situation sometimes people say, understandably, “oh the cops didn’t do anything” because the cops can’t and don’t provide feedback to a member of the public, even one who is a witness, about their decisions and actions when the privacy of another person is at stake. It would sound harsh to say “it’s not your business”, but what I mean is, it may be helpful to think that they probably did make a referral and talk to people about what could/should be done but they just didn’t tell you about it because why would they?

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      Ya seen one naked old guy, you’ve seen them all.

      As long as your sister doesn’t feel creeped on, good on her.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Well that familiar…not the CPS issue, just the job. I ran a Fotomat booth one summer. (Nope, there’s no toilet in the back half of the building that’s just the electric & AC and enough cement to stop idiot drivers.)

    4. Mill Miker*

      I don’t get how people can be so nonchalant about that kind of stuff (as the customer, that is. I get developing a professional detachment).

      … also I think the english word is “Kiosk” if you’re looking for it.

    5. noahwynn*

      I mean, I’m not going to lie and say I don’t have any on my phone. However, I would be mortified if some random drugstore employee saw them.

      I work for an airline. When I was a gate agent, people would often screenshot their mobile boarding passes. As they’re swiping through them all for the entire family, sometimes they would go to wrong way and as agents we would see way more than we wanted to.

    6. Close Bracket*

      I work in a place where we have closed areas where no cameras and no phones are allowed. If you accidentally forget to take your camera phone out of your pocket before going in, you have to call security so they can go through it. We were cautioned during orientation not to keep anything pictures on our phones that we didn’t want security to see. I as all, O.o. This is the world we live in.

  47. ProductionGirl*

    Friends of AAM- tell me about your healthy work snacks! What do you keep on hand or in your desk that makes long days easier and keeps you from being hangry?

    1. rayray*

      I like baby carrots, Luna bars, and those Sargento snack packs – You could definitely make your own version of these, it’s just a snack pack with nuts, cheese, and craisins/dried fruit.

      I also like nutrition drinks. I get mine from Costco.

    3. Now in the Job*

      Wasa bread with almond butter
      Cheese sticks
      100 calorie pack of almonds
      Cheddar crackers and peanut butter
      and for the rough days? Girl scout cookies tucked in the back. XD

      The wasa bread is amazing though.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My husband has freeze-dried edamame and these “P3 protein pack” things? Each one has some kind of nuts or sunflower seeds, little niblets of beef/ham/turkey jerky, and either cheese or a different nut option. (The cheese kind are in the deli cooler section of the grocery store, by like Lunchables and such, but the ones with two kinds of nuts/seeds are shelf-stable and in the aisle with nuts and trail mix.) He’s also in the past kept various types of trail mix and roasted nuts in his desk.

      For more-than-just-snacks, he also keeps single-serve cups of instant rice, foil packets of cooked chicken (like tuna fish, but, you know, bok bok), heat-and-eat quick lunch options, so if he forgets to pack his lunch, he’ll nuke a quick packet of chickpea masala, mix in a packet of the chicken and a cup of rice and call it good.

    6. Peaches*

      Nearly every Sunday, I make a batch of peanut butter dark chocolate chip protein balls for the week, and I bring two to work each day Monday-Friday. They are filling, delicious, and not terribly unhealthy. They are also low FODMAP for those of you with sensitive stomachs like myself. :) If anyone is interested:

      1/2 c. steel cut oats
      1/2 c. peanut butter
      1/4 c. 100% maple syrup
      1 tsp ground cinammon
      1/4 tsp sea salt
      2 Tbsp dark chocolate chips
      1 tsp flax seed (optional)

      Line a baking sheet with wax paper. Stir all ingredients together in a bull (optional: mix all ingredients in food processor if you want the dark chocolate chips pulverized – I prefer them whole, though!) Using wet hands, form the mixture into 1 inch wide balls and place on baking sheet. Refrigerate for at least 1 hour so they firm up. Store in an airtighter contrainer in refrigerator for up to a week.

      1. LunaMei*

        That sounds amazing! I’m going to make some of these this weekend. I definitely need something like that, because I always get really hungry in the afternoon and succumb to the lure of the vending machine.

      2. Peaches*

        Ha! I just realized I typed “bull” instead of “bowl” (weird, I don’t ever even use the word ‘bull’!) I’m embarrassed, guys.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I figured you were typing in Southern. ;)

          My bestie is from NC and the number of times, when we were still roommates, that accents confused conversations … and the word “bowl” was a common one!

      3. Jen in Oregon*

        Am I correct in assuming that that is 1/2 cup of *cooked* steel cut oats? Or is it 1/2 cup steel oats, cooked? I imagine e that uncooked steel cut oats would still be hard as a rock, even with the maple syrup and peanut butter…..am I wrong?? Otherwise, these sound delicious!

    7. SomebodyElse*

      Big bag of almonds
      granola bars
      small bags of cheez its
      small bag of chocolate
      licorice
      beef jerky
      and assorted experiments in finding something chewy, citrusy, lower calorie, and fruity. My newest find that tics all the boxes is veggie go’s strawberry, chia seeds, and beets. Kind of like bits of a fruit rollup

    8. LunaMei*

      I keep a can of mixed nuts. I like the pistachio mixes – right now I’m eating Plantar’s Pistachio mix with cashews, pistachios, and almonds.

    9. ThatGirl*

      100-calorie packs of nuts, sometimes FiberOne-style granola/protein bars (but not the hipster low-carb protein bars which usually are disgusting), a little chocolate, and I bring Sargento snack packs for my 2 pm slump.

    10. CatCat*

      I have started taking a bag of mixed veggies with me each day so I can have variety in veggies. The bag has: 1-2 cauliflower florets, 1-2 radishes, 6-8 baby carrots, and 8-10 sugar snap peas. This has been helping not find veggies boring. Sometimes I take hummus or a yogurt dip for them.

      I also keep apples, pears, and bananas at my desk. String cheese and hardboiled eggs in a mini fridge. I’ve been trying to pair a fruit with something with protein when I snack.

    11. Lyudie*

      Almonds. I’m obsessed with the Blue Diamond wasabi and soy sauce flavored ones. The dark chocolate ones are also good.

    12. urban teacher*

      Can’t keep anything in my drawers due to mice.Can’t keep anything in refrigerator because students will steal it. I need to figure out what to keep in my car that I can eat on way to tutor.

    14. Kathenus*

      Cut up veggies and hummus, since we have a fridge. I have a bowl of them available at all times to stop me from snacking on other stuff in the afternoon because I get a real craving for salty/crunchy food in the late afternoon.

    15. Rexasaurus Tea*

      There is a new kind of apple called Rockit that’s about the size of a mandarin orange, and I’ve been bringing in a couple of those every day. I love that they are small enough to eat when I only have a couple minutes between meetings.

    16. Teach*

      Freeze-dried fruit! Trader Joe’s has a good variety and the flavors are intense which somehow helps my snacking urges.
      I also keep shelf-stable PB cracker packages in my desk for students, plus a Costco sized box of single-serve fruit snacks. Most secondary students are delighted if you chuck a little bag of fruit snacks their way. Yes, even 18-year olds.

    19. Hamburke*

      I have a bag of low salt roasted almonds in my desk. I also bring cut fruit that I can snack on. I do focus on having a good lunch though – usually leftovers (veggies & entree)

  48. LTL*

    On an unrelated note, I had an interesting question on raises and quitting.

    My company officially implements raises on March 1, retroactive to the beginning of the year. Performance reviews are this month and that’s when we figure out what our raise is. If I hand in my resignation this month, is it poor form for me to ask if I’ll still get my raise retroactive to 1/1? (Assuming my last day is after 3/1.) Can I push back if they say no? If I happen to give notice before my performance review, should I broach the subject of my raise with my manager, to make sure I get paid back what I was owed from January to current?

    1. Steve*

      Retroactive raises can probably be thought of as similar to a bonus.
      Most (but not all) employers I’ve had, have not paid bonuses out to employees who leave before the pay date, even if they were employed the entire bonus determination period. (e.g. if the bonus is for calendar year 2019 but paid on march 1st).

      Bonuses are a retention tool. If an employee has already left, or is leaving, they can no longer be retained so there’s no point giving them money. I have no idea legally what would happen if an employee gave their two week notice after they were told the amount of their bonus but before it was paid out. Does informing them of the amount make it a contract that then has to be honored? Or is that overridden by the clause in the original employment contract / employee handbook / whatever that states that bonuses are only paid to current employees? Can the employer terminate the employee immediately? It’s not like “handed in resignation” is a protected class.

      Can you just wait until march 1st to hand in your resignation? That’s what I’ve seen a lot of people do.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        My thoughts as well (wait to resign until after 3/1) except I would wait until that $$ has hit your bank account.

    2. Pennalynn Lott*

      I just encountered the same thing, but with an annual bonus. For me, it worked out because I told the new company how much money I would be missing out on if I didn’t stay with Old Company through March 19 (the bonus payout date) and they added that amount to my base salary. I’ll still be getting the “bonus”, but now it’s spread out over 12 months. (And the next 12 months, and the next, and so on).

  49. Jan Levinson*

    This may be a trivial complaint, but my cube made whistles through her nose ALL. THE. TIME.

    It’s all the time, not a temporary thing that could be blamed on sickness/congestion. It seems petty to bring it up, but it can be distracting when it happens all day, every day. Is this not something she can control? Am I being absurd to fault her for this?

    1. rayray*

      I had a coworker who was always doing this whistly thing. It was MADDENING. I suspected it could have possible been a form of tourettes or OCD maybe, but man it really could fill me with rage.

      If she’s whistling through her nose, it might not be under her control. Could be allergies, deviated septum, or congestion. If you can listen to music or podcasts through headphones, that might help.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Unfortunately, we aren’t allowed to wear headphones. I was just reading that a deviated septum could cause this, so you might be right! Thanks for your sympathies :)

        1. rayray*

          I get it. It’s frustrating. Maybe if it’s happening, you could try tapping your desk or something and focus on those sounds, or if there’s noise from a computer or printer, try to really shift your focus to that sound. It probably sounds stupid, but it could help.

    2. SL*

      This is the worst! The person who sits next to me does this when she’s angry about something. Just sits there and works herself into a silent rage that has her breathing heavy like she’s a bull about to charge.

      And yeah, I don’t know what to do about it except leave our shared space. I feel like telling her she’s breathing too loud is going to make me sound like the crazy person.

    3. Grumpy Kat*

      I have a boss who TALKS TO HERSELF ALL THE TIME. And when she talks to herself it’s all complaints. One time, she was complaining about my coworker under her breath, and he yelled from 3 cubes down, “I CAN HEAR YOU!”
      In my first few months in my job, it gave me so much anxiety hearing her talk to herself thinking she was talking about me. Then I put headphones in and said f*** it.

    4. Quandong*

      I’ve known more than one person who also made whistling sounds when breathing through their nose all the time. It was due to the formation of their septum, and they could not control it. I would consider it a medical condition.

      I’m really sorry you are seated with this cube mate. You may be better off to reframe the sound from something she is purposely doing or refusing to control, to a sound she cannot control.

      Do you have the option to request a seat change? What would you usually do if your cube mate was causing strain e.g. wearing perfume/cologne when you have allergies, constantly humming etc?

      1. Quandong*

        I realise I grouped involuntary sounds from your cubemate with different types of irritation that can be controlled, sorry!

    5. Sleve McDichael*

      My Dad’s nose used to whistle quietly all the time. It was a combination of allergies and a broken nose as a teen. He had surgery to fix it, but I imagine not everyone can. I doubt it’s something your cube mate can control, unfortunately. My sympathies for your frustration!

    6. Not the Famous Actress*

      I have a slight whistle when I breathe, and I know about it but I can’t do anything about it (thanks congenital birth defect). My husband thankfully thinks it’s cute “because it’s me”, and my classroom is rarely quiet enough for my students to hear it, but I know it’s annoying. My sympathies go out to you but she may not be able to control it!

  50. Sally Sparrow*

    My boss (who is amazing) has told me now that I need to stop apologizing. I do get where she is coming from. But I don’t know how to necessarily put this into practice. Basically I apologize whenever I feel like I’ve made a mistake and when I have to ask a question or ask for help in situations where I feel like I should know the answer. On the question/help front it is most evident because she is extremely busy and I don’t like adding back to her workload by needing her time and help. I do know I need to apologize less, and I’ve actually been working on this personally, but I don’t really know where to go from here.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      She is your boss. Helping you is her job, and if she has a problem with it, she will tell you. Well, she SHOULD tell you, but it does sound like she’s the type of person who would tell you. So you definitely should curb your apologies when asking her questions.

      First, try to listen to yourself when you speak, and if you find yourself apologizing, stop and start over. Your boss knows this is a habit you’re trying to break, so that will feel a little weird at first, but I think she will appreciate it rather than get annoyed. Second, if you’ve made a mistake, BEFORE you tell her about it, write it down and write down the solution. So instead of, “I’m sorry, I did this incorrectly,” you can turn it into, “I realized this was wrong so I changed it by doing X” or “I realized this was wrong and that’s my mistake, so I will do Y and Z to fix it.”

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        I think reframing it in my head as that is her job is a huge thing (for me) and that my asking a question isn’t adding to her workload. Thanks!

    2. Enough*

      If you are saying I’m sorry but can you answer this question try rephrasing to Do you have time to answer a question or I’m not clear on something can you help me.

    3. CTT*

      If you preemptively apologize, it draws attention to something that may not even be a mistake. I had a boss tell me this when I was sending out documents and said a few times “apologies for the delay in producing this” when there was no real deadline, just things moving very quickly; and she said “you should stop apologizing because it creates the impression that we are behind.” In this case, she might not be annoyed by the questions until you draw attention to them by apologizing. I think you need to redefine what is worthy of an apology; asking questions is part of the job and you shouldn’t preface them like they’re a grave error.

    4. MM55*

      Find a new mantra and practice it. Maybe something along the lines of “I’d appreciate your help with this. Here is what I am working on, and I need your input” And then immediately describe the work you did and the help you need. Apologizing comes across as insincere or insecure, and I find it annoying too. Unless you truly made a mistake and are owning it.

    5. fposte*

      It sounds like it might be helpful to practice! Try it on your own or with family/friends and work on non-apologetic scripts. “Boss, do have a moment for some questions about the report?” “Boss, could you give me some feedback on the spreadsheet?”

      And think about what you feel like you’re looking for from the other person with an apology. Often an apology is a way of saying “Don’t hold this against me”–is that you? Because in practice that doesn’t work very well. If you ask for help without an apology, what do you feel like might happen?

    6. Fiona*

      Will it help if you reframe it in your mind has now Part Of Your Job? As in, your boss needs you to stop doing doing X. If you keep doing it, you’re not doing your job well. I struggle with this too, but if you are able to retrain yourself, it will also be amazing how much your self-esteem and self-empowerment grows. People respect when others are straightforward, competent, and take responsibility. They are actually UNCOMFORTABLE when faced with constant over-apologizing.

    7. SomebodyElse*

      I’ve coached employees on this before. Here’s why (and I explain it while talking to the employee about it).

      First, it undermines your credibility. If you are apologizing excessively you are telling your coworkers, boss, clients that you did something wrong. It puts you on a lower footing than everyone around you.
      Second, it assigns blame or fault to you in situations where there shouldn’t be blame or fault. Having to ask a question in most cases means you lack information. That isn’t your fault, it’s you gathering information you need to do your job.
      Third, (and this one may be a little petty… but still important) It’s really annoying for people to be constantly apologizing all the time. it adds an emotional transaction to things that don’t need it.

      Your boss is there to do the things that you need from her. Yes she may be busy, but you aren’t adding to her workload, you are part of her workload to begin with.

      As to how to stop this, I think you should try to focus on the words you are saying first. I’m guessing this has become somewhat of a tic for you that you don’t realize you are doing it. So, with any behavior change the keys are to first identify it, then consciously focus on eliminating it.

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        Thanks! Honestly your third point is a big one (and why I was always try to limit my apologies before as well, just not enough obviously). Because I’m basically creating a feedback loop for myself where I don’t want to be annoying so I apologize, but then I apologize and I’m being annoying, and yeah….

    8. Lisa M*

      It’s difficult if you’re that sort of person and honestly – it’s NOT. big deal. Be yourself, try if you can but don’t feel bad about it.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I hsve to dissgree. Her manager has told her to do this differently. So at this job at least, she needs to find a way to make the change.

    9. The Ginger Ginger*

      I had to work on this as well – and generally not softening my requests. As a first step – for specific instances where I felt I was interrupting, I started by replacing apologetic phrasing with “when you have a chance”, so it was clear I was not trying to interrupt but I did need something. It helped me by still being soft, so I didn’t feel like I went from 0-60, but cut out the apology.
      So “Sorry to interrupt, but I have a question on this presentation” becomes, “When you have a chance, I have a question on this presentation”.

      From there, I got more comfortable with pulling that softening language back more. So it’s more “I have a question on this presentation; do you have time now?”

      You don’t have to go all the way in the first leap. Get comfortable without the apology and grow it from there.

    10. Left Foot Wrong Shoe*

      Sorry can become a placemark or substitution for other words. “Excuse me, do you have a minute” becomes “Sorry, do you have a minute”
      Make sure you are not substituting Sorry for Excuse or Pardon.
      Tone can also make a difference. “Do you have a minute? I’d like to ask you about xx” can come across differently depending on tone – a wheedling tone, an abrupt bark, a trembling whisper, a matter-of-fact direct tone.

    11. Jules the 3rd*

      Any chance you can reframe it as ‘thanks for answering my question’ instead of ‘sorry for asking’?

      2. Sleve McDichael*

        This. I’ve been working on replacing my sorrys with thank yous where appropriate and while it takes a bit of mental effort, it’s easier to just change your default than try and work through the psychology behind it. It’s an easy quick fix.

    12. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      This is very dependent on your role and her role – as to how much it could be expected that you’d be “autonomous” vs needed to ask questions or ask for help in many situations. Are you in a generally ‘independent’ role or not really?

    13. RagingADHD*

      Going from over-apologies to none can feel rude or brusque, but there are other polite things to say.

      If you are approaching her and might be interrupting, say “Excuse me” intead of “Sorry.”

      For help or answers, say please and thank you.

  51. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Just a general gripe but man, it’s obnoxious when someone asks me to get price quotes for specific things [that they want, for whatever they want for] and sales reps want to “chat about it” for an up-sell.

    Do you think that “I’m actually just procuring these items for another colleague, we want these items only and do not wish to discuss any further options at this time.” sounds pissy? Our systems administrator wants these devices and this software, no I don’t know the specifics nor do I actually care that much. *hard sigh* If anyone has a better script to shoo off the sniffed out hard-upsell, please do share!

    I’m already bracing for the upsell to someone’s “premium rewards program!” that I’m fully aware of and it doens’t fit our business needs at all. That one, I’m not too worried about being nice about because I know they’re hardasses and I fight hardass with hardass. But the general “I don’t know you, I don’t know if you’ll take a clear “no” for an answer or if you keep digging.

    Ef your “just a 10 minute phone call” stuff. Or “Can I drop by with a catalog.” I want zero catalogs! I just want the stuff I know I need *sobs* Sales folks are hard AF workers and I know it’s a tough game but man…some of the techniques that are still going around makes my skin crawl and temper flare.

    1. Murphy*

      I think what you’ve suggested is fine. I’d lean hard into letting them know that it’s not your call and you’re not the decision maker, e.g. “Oh, I won’t be using it personally” “This item is the only one I’m authorized to research at this time.”

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Oh I like the “this item is the only one I’m authorized to research” line. Filing that away!

    2. Ranon*

      The product literature stuff I just say “we just moved offices after 35 years so we’re trying to limit our physical copies of things” which most reps are super nice about. Calls I say “I don’t have a call but if you have a digital copy of your catalog you can email it or if it’s on your website I can find it there” and then I keep or delete depending on how much I care.

      For the rest of it “I’m doing this for someone else and they don’t want any changes” like your script sounds just great to me

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m dreading moving because it means Uline is going to start their dreadful catalog bombs again…

        I once had an entire mail box full of them, with names of people who have never existed [yes I have read enough old rosters that I know these people don’t exist, where do they even get these names from half the time].

        But I like this wording as well for catalogs. I have a secure access building, I literally tell sales people we don’t take sales calls from unauthorized vendors. I feel like such a bridgetroll but at the same time, we have a huge “no solicitations” sign, so.

        I do go with the “We prefer digital, it’s all on your website that’s perfect!” route [looking directly in your collective eyeballs, Uline…]

        1. Texan In Exile*

          I hate Uline. They have a site 42 miles south of my city and always have lots of job listings that pollute my searches.

          Why don’t I just limit my searches to ten miles from my city, you ask?

          I. Do.

          But they lie on the job listings somehow and then add a note (“South of City”) as if that makes everything OK.

          So now I have to go super advanced in a search and exclude them by name.

          (It’s not just the geography – the owners of the company are big donors to the current president and I would have to be starving to take a job there. And I would have to drive 84 miles round trip every day, so – why do they think this is OK?)

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            PREACH all this. I hate them too on a personal level. I have tried my hardest to get rid of them and thankfully we’re small enough and don’t use basic sized boxes, so they get very few dollars.

            My favorite was when we got literature about the devil’s lettuce since their homestate of Illinois were working on legalization. We all went screaming about it because we’re a rec state for many years now.

            Thankfully they’re also just too stupidly expensive unless you’re a big spender. They even quoted us stuff but refuse to take away their BS shipping costs, so since I’ve been in this new position, I’ve systematically removed them from more and more things. I literally can just get things cheaper on random websites and Home Depot.

            I’m sorry they’re cluttering up your search.

    3. MissBliss*

      I often say that I’m only responsible for purchasing and these items have already been approved, or that they can send me information that I will pass along to the decision maker [insert “but this purchase has already been approved and we’re on a deadline” if they’re really pushy]. I lean hard on “above my pay grade.” I think your script is fine.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Thank you!

        I think part of my issue here is that this is one of the few times I’m seriously in this “procurement only” role. On a normal day, I do have the authority and I do take sales pitches and pick vendors/products and all that jazz. But not today, not with this project because I’m just looking at item numbers our administrator sent and was like “Price check if you want but these are the prices I have for my vendor here.”

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      “I don’t want to waste your time. My colleague was very clear about what they want today.”

    5. Gumby*

      I will trade you for a potential customer who wants to “partner with us” on a “really exciting project” (it legit is, actually, except…) by which he means “give us a price break on the thingy we want to buy.” No, I am sorry, I know it is expensive. You are welcome to try to build your own thingy. It will take you at least a month and it might very well work. Or you can buy one and have it in a week. But we cannot sell it at a loss just because your project is exciting.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        We’ve had this kind of thing before, yuck.

        We sell materials so yeah, “you want in on this deal?!” and some want us to pay them for reviews…

        The most we do is sometimes if they’re doing something awesome, we will give them a break for marketing pics but really, that’s so few and far between and rarely something they bring up themselves but something we offer in return for the rights to use it as an example.

    6. Impska*

      I’m the decision maker about any major purchase in my office. I don’t spare the sale’s rep’s feelings. I just say “I don’t have time for a 10 minute call, I want XYZ. Email the quote to EMAIL.” “You can send me a catalog if you want, but I will put it in the garbage. I don’t have room for that.”

      Sometimes they don’t take no for an answer, and it’s hard to get them to deviate. That’s when I interrupt them and say “I have 5 minutes until my next appointment, at which point you lose this sale. Do you think you can get this done?”

  52. ashie*

    I am the head of a small but growing department: my only direct report is gaining a direct report herself. She and I have both led multi-level teams in other companies, but it’s been a few years for both of us. Any suggestions how I can support her and her new employee? We’ve already talked about onboarding strategies and plans, and have had many discussions over the last few years about organizational & departmental values and how we work. What else can I do?

    1. CatPerson*

      Frankly, I am trying to wrap my mind around the idea of two layers of management among three workers. Really?

  53. CorporateSubsidies*

    Sort of a random musing based on an old post about salary I was reading earlier. Businesses exist to make money, right? And if we accept the premise that they have no obligation to consider anything other than their own profits, thereby paying wages that no one can live on…well then why is it acceptable that, at least in the US, taxpayers are obligated to subsidize their labor costs in the form of welfare benefits? I’m thinking particularly of Walmart, which has an absurd number of staff that need these benefits to survive because their wages are so poor.

    I dunno. Of course I realize it’s a lot more complicated than that, but it just seems to me that a lot of ire is directed at the low-wage earners, but their employers get off with little heat because oh well, they’re supposed to cut costs to run the business!

    1. Combinatorialist*

      Well, theoretically, the minimum wage is designed to protect from this — so that companies are required to pay a living wage. So the answer is to raise the minimum wage so that it is actually a minimum wage.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Bingo.

        “Oh but we caaaaaaaaan’t pay workers more!” the Waltons sob into the bennies they use for kleenex. “How will we afford our eighteenth yacht?! Surely if they’d just pull themselves up by their bootstraps they wouldn’t need assistance really!!”

    3. Alice*

      I have no answer for you, other than to provide some numbers.
      $153 billion paid out in 2013 on cash assistance, healthcare, and foodstamps to families with a breadwinner who works at least half a year.
      Of course, the Brookings Institutions says, no — assistance payments are actually pushing wages up, rather than down, because they “reduce the availability of low-skill adults who are willing to work for low pay and lousy benefits,” forcing low-income employers to pay somewhat higher wages.
      If that were true, how come real wage growth has been almost flat? The floor here is minimum wage, not minimum wage-plus-some-premium-based-on-mythical-people-who-prefer-welfare-over-work.

    5. Angwyshaunce*

      Large corporations privatize the gains, and socialize the costs. Unfortunately, politicians are a very good investment.

    6. Ex-Wally World Corporate*

      Walmart gets a bad rap because 7 or so years ago a not-insignificant portion of the store employees were on food stamps or other taxpayer-funded assistance. Walmart got new leadership and started moving in the direction of being more employee-focused. The average hourly wage of non-management store employees is now $14.26/hour. Minimum starting wage is $11.00/hour. Employees and their spouse/partner have access to health insurance and can get GEDs for free, and Bachelor’s degrees for ~$360/year. And maternal/paternal benefits have been expanded.

      But, yeah, the CEO and the rest of the C-suite could definitely do just fine with a salary reduction, and that money could go toward increasing store employee wages.

  54. Not today*

    Pet Peeve of the week: As I was leaving in the evening, my grandboss saying: “Its nice some of us can leave at five.”
    I’m hourly non exempt and have been told I’m not allowed to work over 40 hours but must work Monday-Friday, so yeah I’m leaving at five. Also you make 50,000 more than I do. Grrr

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      Daydream “Its nice some of us make $50k more than the rest of us.” (door gently closes)

      I’ve said, to my previous ED who said that the chaos upset her, “You make six-figures so should enjoy the chaos you’re creating.” and then turned to my Dev Director and said, ‘And you make in the high fives and do nothing to protect us from this chaos.” Needless to say I quit.

    4. Yarrow*

      Ooh, that’s annoying as hell. I worked at a job where I was paid $100k less than the newbies in another department. After helping someone with a request, the guy said “that’s why we pay you the big bucks!” At the time I was paying for grad school out of pocket, living with my mom and had about $11 in my bank account. I was pissed.

    5. Lisa M*

      That’s pathetic coming from her – but you know the old saying – when they go low – you go high and ignore her catty remarks.

    6. Jen in Oregon*

      Next time, if there’s a next time, just say, incredulously, “What?!?!?! I was told that I can’t go over 40 hours a week!! Are you saying that I’m allowed to make overtime?? I would *LOVE* some overtime!!! Will you talk to (my boss) and tell them that you authorized this???”

      Hopefully that’ll shut him up.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Yeah, I’d try some form of this. Or “I wish I could work longer and get some overtime, but I’m not allowed to work over 40 hours.”

        1. Product Person*

          Or, “Wanna trade? If you take my job, I’ll take yours. Under the current rules, you will have to leave at 5 like I’m doing, since there is no authorization for overtime and continuing workin off thd clock would create a huge liability for us…”

          Then I’d stare at the person waiting for a reaction ;-).

    7. Iris Eyes*

      “Hey you want to approve the occasional overtime and we can chat about me being around later.”

    10. Pennalynn Lott*

      My go-to reply in situations like this (someone higher up than me complaining that I get to leave before them or have a lighter workload) is “That’s why *you* make the big bucks!” said with a genuine smile.

    11. Anon for this one*

      Ask grandboss if they want you to stay late? (if yes do it and charge overtime; if no you will have flushed it out)

      Are you sure grandboss knows you are hourly?

    12. Retail not Retail*

      I had a manager “joke” that we’d have to stay until this cart of markdowns sold and it’s like dude. Minimum wage. Hourly. I will gladly stay.

    13. Grumpy Kat*

      I live in a commuter city and traffic can vary. Some days it’ll take me an hour to get to work, and some days it’ll take me 30 minutes. I had to come into the office on July 5th (yes, the day after the holiday) and my manager would not let me WFH that day because of her ridiculous rule of not letting anyone WFH on Fridays. So you can imagine that it was just me, her, and 2 other people in our department in the office. I got into the office at 7:30 that morning because there was no traffic, and I didn’t take a lunch because I wanted to go home. My other coworkers left at 2, 2:30. I clocked out at 3:45, and my manager gave me the dirtiest look as I said goodbye to her.

      If you want me to stay until 4:30, you can pay my overtime…

    14. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve had people say “must be nice!” as I leave at 3, and I cheerfully say “it’s the best part of logging in at 6:30!” Unless I’m in a foul mood on which case I mutter “it wasn’t so nice leaving home before 6am to make this possible. “

  55. Kramerica Industries*

    What’s the deal with 30-60-90s and SWOT analyses for job interviews? Is this only a good idea for internal interviews? Or is it a thing for outside jobs too?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I did a 30-60-90 in my interview for my current job, but I was only able to do it because I was moving into an identical role at a new organization so I knew exactly what I’d be doing. It probably wouldn’t work if you’d be guessing at what the exact needs of the role are, and might actually hurt you if you guess wrong.

  56. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    How important is having a robust LinkedIn presence when job searching? I have all my position titles and dates and some of them have a very brief description of the job, but now that I’m starting a very slow job search/career change process, I’m wondering if it’s important that I fill out the descriptions of each job? Or does it totally not matter because my resume is what’s important in a job search?

    1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      Do it for the sake of having a complete LinkedIn profile should they check it. Also, don’t fill out the LinkedIn to read like your resume and don’t simply do descriptions of your job. Write a short story and give it life. They already have to read the resume which is boring and dry. Keep everything in 1st person and really show who you are as a person and professional.

      Me: From volunteer to Executive Director, I joined a 20-yr old non-profit that wanted to focus on strategy, social media, infrastructure, and volunteer recruitment. From helping applicants navigate the application process to managing 5 staff and 20 volunteers, I lead our team in hosting 5 community events raising $50k. This added to our $750k budget from which we built 10 homes for 10 families and 30 children, during my two-year tenure.

    2. Vespertine*

      I filled two roles very recently by sending MPs on LinkedIn to people (and not just those who said explicitely they were searching). FWIW, I’m the project manager and needed specific tech types.

      If your resume is available for download on LinkedIn, I’d say a brief description is enough (just make sure you have the right keywords for positions/skills to show up in searches), especially if you’re looking for similar positions.

      I do think you should take advantage of the ‘about’ section to give a brief insight into your goals and what motivates you (as informative as bullet points are, i’ve always liked it when I had a glimpse of the person behind the CV. But it’s not a deal breaker to leave it empty or bland).

      Nevertheless, if you picked up unusual skills or had unusual responsibilities, and if it’s something you want to highlight in your job search, you should put it in your profile.
      As usual though, too much information means nothing stands out and people won’t read.

      Good luck on your search.

  57. Ruby314*

    Any tips on how to navigate starting in a temp-to-(hopefully)-permanent role? I’ve never done this before and as a classic introvert, I’m worried about seeming like I’m not gelling with my coworkers. I’m very easy to get along with, I’m just not great at putting myself out there in this type of situation; plus I think my natural instinct will be to put my head down to work very hard. Thanks!

    1. Now in the Job*

      Put your head down, work very hard, but also accept that part of you “working very hard” means “be especially friendly and expend your mana on making relationships.” People hire people, and if they like you as a person, I find they’re more likely to hire you. But it’s also imperative to make yourself necessary: work hard, be efficient, be cheerful in your work, accept tasks with grace and patience. You’re a guest in their house in a way, and every day you have to prove your worth to be there.

      It’s….REALLY exhausting in the beginning, not going to lie. But that’s how I’ve successfully transitioned two temporary jobs into full time hires, and they *weren’t* temp-to-hire either.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Bring the quiet hardworker sort is actually how I made temp to hire work for me.

      I see the outgoing go-getting in your face kind of temps very much tossed to the side quickly. It’s kind of the ugliness and part of the “know your role” that comes with temp work.

      They want to see your work and they’re test driving right now.

      So be kind, be willing to go the extra mile but remember that these colleagues are sizing you up and you just want them to think “i could work with this person for long term.”

      So your natural instinct is good right now. I actually had to break some hearts in my temp years because I didn’t want jobs that they wanted me to go permanent for. Sorry, I knew after half days in hospital AP that I’d rather sink to the bottom of the ocean and just stay there. I was never suited for “Specialist” roles, I need more stimulation. But yeah, that’s a tangent. But I think you’ll get what I mean.

      Temping is hard. It’s a weird game. It’s a weird role. But you’re on the right track. I saw people fired for having too much personality and uh gumption.

  58. Lauren P.*

    Yesterday due to inclement weather, our boss sent out an e-mail stating we could leave early without it counting against our PTO hours and we would not have to make up those hours. I didn’t leave early because (1) I live fairly close and was confident I could make it home without issue, and (2) leaving early would have put the rest of my work off until today, which would have been annoying.

    Well, apparently I was the only one out of our team to stay my full shift. Got a few comments, such as “of course you stayed” and “you make the rest of us look like slackers.” Now, this has happened before. Earlier in the year our boss gave us half a day off as a reward, but I stayed because, again, work to be done that I didn’t want to put off to the next day.

    Not sure how to handle this moving forward. To my understanding, just because time off is given does not mean I have to take it, but I already get ribbed for never missing work or taking time off. Even my boss teases me for “working too hard,” which… I don’t feel is accurate?

    Anyway, any advice? Should I bite the bullet and take the time off when it’s offered, or…?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      In this situation, do whatever you think is best for you. They said you made the rest of them look like slackers? That’s their problem.

      That said… if you never take time off or miss work, think hard about why. Everyone needs a break at some point. And if you get PTO, not taking time off means leaving money on the table.

      1. That'll happen*

        I’d also argue that never taking time off is setting up unreasonable expectations for your position. If your employer is only able to get the amount of work you do out of you because you never take PTO, that’s setting your eventual successor up for failure if they are someone who actually does take time off. It’s also possibly going to set you up for burnout.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would just respond with “I don’t think you’re slackers at all, I’m just so close to work that I don’t need to leave early *shrug* Have a safe drive home!”

      You shouldn’t have to justify things but people use this kind of wording to make themselves feel better, so I’m like “Here, I’ll make you feel extra better with a smile…poor soul, needing so much reassurance.”

      I have gotten a few “oh burning the midnight oil” comments over the years and I just say “I do it so others don’t have to!” or something like that. Or “Yeah needy customers you know, rather not get screamed at tomorrow L-O-L.” or “Tax deadlines, yep!”

      Lots of it is just playing off of it, don’t internalize it. They’re not.

    3. CheeryO*

      Not leaving early for the weather is fine, but it would strike me as a little precious to not take the half day that you were offered. Everyone needs time off now and then, even if you’re generally busy.

      2. Lauren P.*

        I wasn’t doing it to be precious (although I don’t quite understand what that means in this context), or even a dedicated employee. I just didn’t want to push my work off to the next day, because trying to cram 1.5 day’s work into 1 day would have been more stressful than just staying my usual hours.

      3. Mellow*

        I wouldn’t worry about the “precious” snark, OP, when you’ve made it perfectly clear that going home earlier makes things worse for your workload.

        It’s the slackers tossing around words like “precious” who make their whole organizations look bad.

    5. SufferinSuccotash*

      Your coworkers are telling you that you’re othering yourself. You can listen or not, that’s your choice, but it’s culture. It might be good to take advantage of that time, even if your personal work-ethic inclines you not to, as a way of building solidarity with your coworkers. I like to think of it as developing a foundation of common stuff. It greases the wheels for other, more work-y, things.

    6. Cinnamon*

      The slacker comments seem odd when your boss gave permission to leave early. Some people really need to just worry about themselves.

    7. Mockingjay*

      I get you. I was the last one here yesterday; everyone bailed early, but I had finished a report and needed to email it to somebody. However, I don’t make a regular practice of staying late. (BTW, the storm just skimmed us – I knew it would.)

      But…you probably should take some time off. I explained this to my daughter in her first career job, when she zealously volunteered for overtime and rarely took time off: Work will always be there. You will be in the workforce for decades. Reserve some of that dedication and energy; you’ll need it years from now.

      No one ever looked back on their career and said, “if only I had completed just one more report.”

      1. Lauren P.*

        I don’t see myself as particularly dedicated, tbh. I work today so I can have a less stressful tomorrow. Pushing the work off to the next day just means I have to cram even more to get everything done – which, for me, is far more stressful than just doing the work when I had it slated to be done.

        And I do take time off, it just doesn’t seem like it because I don’t call in sick and I take my time off in bulk rather than a day here or there. For example, I took off for the winter holidays, but I probably won’t take off again until Spring because it just makes the rest of my week harder to take one or two days off instead of a full week.

    8. Pamplemeow*

      In my view, it’s ok to not take time off for inclement weather/etc. sometimes, but make sure you’re not doing it every time or your coworkers may resent you.

      There are a couple coworkers in my (very small) office that always come in on snow days, which does annoy me a bit. I’m from FL and have literally zero experience driving in snow. The coworkers that come in have 4wd cars and are from snowy climates. So, while I get why they might want to come in, my boss may not and might start to expect everyone come in.

    9. ThatGirl*

      For inclement weather, I kinda get it – and folks who live farther away should be able to leave when the roads are potentially bad. But if you aren’t gonna take a free half day off — well, I might wonder what your deal was. Who doesn’t like some extra time off?

      It sounds like you might put a lot of your identity into your job and being a hard worker – not that there’s anything wrong with that, but work should not be your life, in my opinion. Cultivate a hobby, enjoy time off, take breaks to relax and restore your mind and body.

      1. Lauren P.*

        I actually really don’t like extra time off unless I’ve planned for it beforehand. I would have taken half day off if I’d had advance notice, and could structure my workload accordingly, but the ‘surprise’ aspect of it was more stress than taking those hours off would have been worth.

        And, from my perspective, it’s not an identity thing so much as it is I’m lazy and have spread my typical workload across my days so that I don’t have to stress (or work *extra* hard) any of those days. I work ahead so I don’t have to work in bulk.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I see, so it’s more that you have a mental plan and are able to structure your work accordingly. I can understand being thrown off if something comes up that disrupts the plan you had in your head. My work tends to ebb and flow and some days I don’t know how busy I’ll be, and it’s usually on those very, very slow days that we’re told we can leave early. For me, unless I have something due *immediately* if someone said “hey, feel free to go home at 1” I would gladly push it off, but I’m rarely so busy that would create a huge backlog the next day.

          It might help your perception if you’re very friendly about it and just say, for instance, “oh, I’m going to wrap this up, but you guys have a great afternoon!”

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      For the weather thing I think you are fine – that one was specifically due to driving concerns and if you won’t be impacted by it then no need to take it.
      As for the other half-day…you probably should have taken that time with the rest of the team. Especially if you got your work done but then had to wait on them for anything – a comment along the lines of “I finished X yesterday while you were out so if you could get to Y ASAP today that would be really helpful since I then have to do Z” could easily be taken negatively by coworkers. Not saying you do this but I can think of several innocent comments that could be taken poorly if said in context of everyone but OP taking time off and OP stays behind to work.

  59. alas poor yorick*

    Our best performer is leaving. We’ve known this was bound to happen but our boss’s plan for moving forward is concerning and incredibly demoralizing. Boss hired a person into the lowest rung of our company and apparently promised them the next open spot. New person would be replacing top performer after being here only six months. Boss did this without asking for any ideas or feedback from the department directly impacted. Top performer is not pleased with the plan. The department is not happy with the plan. Boss continues a string of white male hires while preaching about diversity needs.

    So I guess what I’m asking is what do I drink tonight while job searching in an area with no prospects?

    3. Can't Sit Still*

      I drink bourbon in the cold months, gin in the warm months. If it’s cold where you are, mulled mead. Cider if it’s above freezing.

    6. Kathenus*

      Your last sentence gave me a flashback to a number of years back. My boss came into my office, sat down, and said ‘do you want to know what I did or do you want alcohol first?’ Then he proceeded to tell me that he had hired someone for a vacant position I had on my team without consulting with me at all. I wish I had held out for the alcohol…

  60. Mark M*

    A bit of an odd etiquette question, but it happens a lot in my office! How do you guys handle door-holders and door-holding when the follower is a good distance behind? This is a frequent occurrence in my office with one particular door that has a long walkway on both sides.

    I would really like to err on the side of “just do what is logical” based on my own personality. So basically, I would not hold the door for someone if they are more than a few seconds behind, because I don’t expect them to break into a speed-walk or even just get the feeling that they should. And conversely, I tend to say loudly “thank you” immediately when someone is clearly holding a door for me and I’m 5+ seconds away. But since I don’t really speed up my walking, it ends up being an awkward few seconds of staring at one another.

    What do others think? My approach is definitely on the side of being potentially more cold, but honestly, door-holding is only a convenience if it truly saves someone time/energy. Which is not the case if someone is delayed holding the door for an extended time and/or someone needs to break into a light jog to avoid making someone wait with a door open.

    1. Enough*

      I tend to make this decision of if the door would be completely closed when they got to it if I just went through or if they are carrying something.

      1. valentine*

        If they are not there to grab the door you hold open behind you, they’re not close enough. If it’s because they’re carrying stuff and no more than five seconds away, ask.

    2. deesse877*

      This is a local-culture thing, not a logic thing. Where I live now, door-holding is not mandatory, and not gendered, but the thanks-and-hurry-up for a held door (or elevator) really is. Part of how people use public space here is formally acknowledging others, such that if someone offers a gesture like a door-hold and you seem to refuse/ignore it, you are the A. (We are also very militant about bless-yous, which some see as an East Coast cultural convention.)

      So basically, do what will fulfill others’ expectations, within reason.

    3. Iris Eyes*

      What you do while waiting can make a big difference. Can you have a little mini conversation that means there is a purpose to the pause?

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve been known to say “Thanks but you go on, I’m moving slow today!”
      When it happens with our outside secure door and I don’t recognize the door-holder, I make a point of saying I have to look for my badge, and start rifling though my laptop case until they give up and go on. Funniest was when someone insisted on waiting, and I really didn’t have it. He did give up when I went back to my car for it.

    5. CM*

      In my last building, there was some woman from a different company who yelled at me because I didn’t hold the door for her and because I got on the elevator when she didn’t want me to (it was weird). I made a point to always close the door on her. Otherwise, my in-the-moment decision is more like, “Are you close enough to grab the door from me in the next 2 seconds? Are you close enough to grab it in 8 seconds and it would obviously be a struggle to open it yourself?”

      I also go through life assuming that other people have a plan for how to do things. So, if they’re carrying stuff, they had some strategy to get from point A to point B that isn’t just hoping a stranger will open the door. Happy coincidence if I do it, but if not I’m sure they’ll manage.

  61. JustaTech*

    A Public Service Announcement I’d like to share with companies everywhere:

    Don’t ask your employees to put last-minute international plane tickets on their personal credit cards. Even if they can do it, and float the cost until you reimburse them, it’s very much not cool. Not to mention, lots of people don’t have credit cards where they can just charge the odd ten grand.

    Plan your trips well in advance (if you can) and make sure that everyone who might travel has a company travel card.

    1. Stormy Weather*

      Gah! Once upon a time I worked for a company that had its own travel agent. She was fabulous and we never had to worry about such nonsense. Then she moved and they refused to let her work remotely.

    2. mreasy*

      We are lucky to have best scenario – you can get a corporate card if you want one, but you can use your own if you prefer to accrue miles.

  62. Narvo Flieboppen*

    There seem to be some Hellmouth ripples hitting our vendors this week and bouncing back to me. That and the CFO is up to the ‘normal’ shenanigans of both refusing overtime but then calling me out for not putting in extra hours when all of the salaried staff are getting here well before me and leaving well after. When I pointed out I was avoiding extra working time because of the no overtime rule, he expressed his disappointment that I have not ‘figured out a way to make it work’. I assume that’s a blatant hint I should be working off the clock, which I am just not going to do.

    Vendor lunacy 1: We do $5,000 – $10,000 per month with this vendor, sometimes more when things are busy. We get a discount on most of our invoices, but not all, and sometimes not all line items. I accidentally took a discount on a line item which wasn’t discounted. This caused us to short pay our monthly statement by $0.02. Yes, 2 cents, that is not a typo.

    We also have a major event coming up, so we are placing a $15,000 order, significantly more than normal. Their AR rep called me to note the short payment, I apologized and said I could catch it up on the next month’s payment. She specified that was not acceptable, they require an overnighted check for the short pay, our account is suspended, and the large order will not be released until we have cleared up the past due balance. I confirmed with her that the past due amount was only $0.02. Both parties are agreed this is the correct variance. I escalated to the rep’s manager, because this seems like a huge overreaction to such a small amount when you are a regular customer. Our account with them dates back to the 1980’s with an average spend of $50,000 per year. AR manager clarifies that we are past due and nothing will be released unless we overnight a check for the $0.02 balance.

    We cut and overnighted a $0.02 check in order to get the $15,000 order because we needed it ASAP. We are also exploring alternate vendors for their products and have sourced close to 80% of from other suppliers. So, say goodbye to thousands of dollars per year of our business, vendor 1. Nice knowing you, I guess.

    Vendor lunacy 2: This was my fault, I made a payment late by 1 business day at the beginning of the year because I was caught up with high priority deadlines that all were due the same day as the original payment, and it just slipped my mind. Mea culpa. Vendor hit us with 38% ‘late fee’ and a $100 ‘credit threat assessment’ charge on the February invoice. I called them to see if they would waive these fees given the payment was late by 1 business day and it’s the second time in 9 years where we’ve ever had a late payment. I was informed that due to our ‘repeated late payments’ (clarified we really do mean 2nd in 9 years) we are a major credit risk with a high chance of defaulting on the account entirely. WTF???? We will now be charged the $100 monthly credit threat assessment into perpetuity on an account with $1,000 or so per month activity. Hasta la bye bye, vendor 2, we’ll just go without your service. The rep thoughtfully put all this in writing and emailed it to me, so I had something to show my boss to indicate I am not just hallucinating these conversations.

    Vendor lunacy 3: Received the 1099 for last year and disagreed with the amount. I did a line item review, and we did record as taxable a small payment (less than $300) which should not have been. I communicated this error, apologized, corrected the 1099 and filed the corrected form with the IRS while sending a copy direct to the vendor with a line item payment detail of her taxable contracted payments showing the corrected total is right.

    She then called me back to explain it was still wrong. I ran through the payments we made, the taxable amount, and confirmed the total lines up. She insists that the difference is ‘subtle’ and ‘only smart people can see the error’. I presume she is the empress and this is her new error. She insisted I take an additional 25% off the taxable income because that was the total amount of all her non-taxable payments from us and we were improperly taxing her on it. I clarified that wasn’t possible. She is now going to report us to the IRS. I look forward to sending them the spreadsheet and contracts showing the corrected 1099 is, in fact, correct.

    I look forward to not coming back to work tomorrow as my weekend starts at close of business today.

    2. Rebecca*

      2 cents? An overnighted check? When I did A/R stuff, that was well within my limit to write off or set up an adjustment and pick it up next month. That is totally out of line, making someone overnight a check, costing what, $24 for TWO CENTS. Honestly, I’d start looking for another vendor. Let them collect 2 cents, then lose all your business.

      1. irene adler*

        Insane!

        I would escalate this waaaaay up the chain of command. Anything to embarrass the stuffing out of the A/R folks who are enforcing this silliness.

        And then let sales know exactly why your business is going elsewhere.

        1. Narvo Flieboppen*

          I figured we’ll probably get a call about it when they see our activity has dropped. At which point, they will know about the problem. Some of the new sourcing has opened up some cost reductions, so we’ll likely stay switched for a lot of it. Sure, we have to place 3 orders instead of 1, but if we can save $40K or so a year doing it, it’s worth the hassle. Also, I like not sending money to insane people who go out of their way to make my life more difficult than it needs to be.

          On the other hand, we had a vendor were I underpaid by $54 (swapped two digits when I entered it, another oops). The AR rep called about it, I explained how it happened, and promised to make it up next check run. She just said forget about it, you always pay in full on time, so we’ll just waive it this time. That’s a great way to treat an honest mistake and build customer loyalty. Sadly, this week has been the opposite.

          1. Rebecca*

            I’d sorely be tempted to say “oh, Sally in A/R forced us to overnight a check for 2 cents so we could place an order for $15K and have it processed on time, so we’ve decided to take our [yearly business amount] to other vendors. I’m sure you understand.” Then let Sally explain why she cost her employer $100K or so over 2 cents. She’s liable to have 2 cents handed to her on her way to the unemployment line.

      2. Noobert*

        I would have overnighted a card with a Nickel taped to it and a note asking for them to overnight me my $0.03 change.

        2. Pennalynn Lott*

          My dad’s birthday is in March. I forgot about it one year. He sent a scathing email about how I awful I was for not sending so much as a card that only costs $1.83 with tax.

          So, for Father’s Day that year, I hand-wrote “Happy Father’s Day” on a sheet of paper using different colored crayons and then taped $1.83 in change all over the paper and mailed it to him.

          Weirdo that he is, he has it hanging up in his [home] office and says it’s the best gift I’ve ever given him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      When I pointed out I was avoiding extra working time because of the no overtime rule, he expressed his disappointment that I have not ‘figured out a way to make it work’. I assume that’s a blatant hint I should be working off the clock, which I am just not going to do.

      “No, I haven’t thought of any way to work extra hours without getting overtime, but if you think of something, please drop me an email.”

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Woah. Wooooooooooah. I thought I saw some nonsensical vendors [we had a hold on our old AF account over a payment that was ‘late’ because they never got our check. They don’t send statements, they just waited until X time and then sent us a “account is locked, bro.” message. I had to cancel the check and wire them the money. But that was at least more credible than a random shortpay of any amount let alone 2c…]

      I’ve never not had a late payment waved. Even the STATE waives penalties.

      And what the HELL is a “credit risk assessment fee” *blinks* That’s brand new.

      And holy hell, I’ve been in states with caps on finance charges for businesses, what are these people, loan sharks? They’re treading into those ugly waters with 38%.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        Fleet cards, for fuel purchases. But, we have company credit cards and we’re just switching over to those until we get a new fleet card vendor. They changed the card agreement like 4 years ago and the controller at the time just signed off without questioning the ridiculous policies.

        We originally switched to fleet cards because we could block non-fuel/maintenance purchases. Some of the guys were adding lunch & snacks to the company’s tab when filling up, so these put a stop to that behavior. But to label anyone a major risk for defaulting on an account for being 1 day late, twice, is just completely bizarre. There is no logic to it except ‘excuse to gouge detected!’

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          OH THOSE MOFOS. Okay, nevermind, I get it.

          I only had a short lived life with fuel providers [not card stock at least!] but yeah…this makes things so much more clear to me. Fuel providers do not ef around with their very strict rules for payment, including both not writing even a penny off or a day late payment. But never had them slap them with a assessment fee.

          To be fair to them, they’re in a vulnerable position. They can’t just get the fuel back after all. But they are the hardest to deal with and I know I could never do their jobs given the fact that logistics is an ugly life with a lot of sudden closures *sobs*

      2. Narvo Flieboppen*

        Fleet cards, for our company vehicles. They changed their policies like 4 years ago and the controller at the time just signed off without questioning the insane changes to their late penalties.

        We’ve got company credit cards, we’ll switch back to those while looking for a new fleet card vendor. Basically, we got the cards because we could lock it down to just fuel/maintenance services. Some of the guys were adding lunch & snacks on the company dime when filling up, and management wanted better controls than just telling them to stop.

    6. NW Mossy*

      $0.02? They realize that even just the cost of their time to have a couple of conversations with you about it makes it a bad deal for them to pursue it, much less the risk of losing you as a customer, right? Oy.

      My company has an adjustment account for exactly this purpose – we use it to fund small outages where someone failed to remit enough for a transaction or we need to make a correction that resulted in an outage. Technically I have to approve the funding requests for my staff, but I emphatically do not care about the details if it’s less than $100. The combined time of me and my direct report is worth more.

      A former colleague got it right – she used to tell her staff “don’t chase pennies” as a way of helping them understand that some problems are just not worth the effort involved to solve.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Sadly there are a lot of setups that refuse to put up any leeway.

        My mom shortpaid her doctor’s bill by twelve cents. TWELVE. CENTS. And got billed for it. Postage is fifty cents even not counting the labor of sending out that statement…yikes.

        I always adjust and pick my battles because I make the rules, lol. But yeah, the horror stories of this kind of penny chasing give me hives thinking about it.

      2. AnonThisTime*

        A former co-worker once e-mailed the entire office asking if anyone had left a dime on his cubicle wall. The boss’s reply (also to all) was legendary (it wasn’t mean, but it did paint a picture of how much time had been wasted by the e-mail… and the boss included the time we probably spent reading the boss’s e-mail).

      3. M*

        When I first started working, in a very low-wage irregular after-school job, my mandatory superannuation fund (Australian) was a particularly shitty commercial fund. It wasn’t as if there was a huge amount of money going in there – like, maybe a few hundred over several years – but they kept turning on fees for things I obviously didn’t need, like life insurance, and making it a logistical nightmare of multiple phone calls to get it turned off. (I was 16! Life insurance was not a priority!) Obviously, the second I got a job of any significance, I moved to a much more sane industry fund that didn’t have a business model of wringing blood from their clients’ accounts.

        In Australia, if a superannuation account drops below $50, they’re not allowed to charge any fees. Unsurprisingly, given how they handled fees, that account did indeed drop below that level.

        Reader, for over a decade, I kept that account alive, on the maximum possible paper communication settings. Monthly account updates (yup, still $48.73!), quarterly updates, full investment portfolio information, everything. When it hit the mandatory “if you’ve had no communication with the holder, you turn it over to the government to track them down” point seven years in, I wrote them a letter to keep it open.

        When I’d hit the cost of postage and printing that I calculated I’d paid them in fees, I let them finally transfer it to my nice sane industry fund. Sometimes, just sometimes, chasing pennies is richly deserved.

    7. Blue Eagle*

      This reminds me of the time I was newly hired as an accountant for a not-for-profit and they had a dry spell where they were really short on funds for an extended period and vendors hadn’t been paid for a while. I tried to catch up and paid most vendors monthly off their monthly statement but we had this one vendor who billed each transaction separately with 30 day terms on each. So I called the A/R person and asked if it was OK if I paid once a month in the middle of the month which meant that some invoices would be less than 30 days but some would be more than 30 days. There was a bit of a pause while the person looked up our account and then responded – – “you know that your account is mostly a 120-day pay, if you are able to pay by 45 days we would turn cartwheels!” I guess that meant it was OK and gave us both a laugh for the day.

  63. Emma*

    How do you ask the department head what his plans are for you?

    I wrote to you before about a promotion I was so disappointed about (and got great advice). My boss went to bat for me and I got the new title I had been longing for. Now, I am hoping to replace am boss who is retiring at the end of the year. I think I might have a fair chance to get it.

    I have been approached by a couple of headhunters and am being interviewed for an interesting position. I’d prefer to stay at my current work if I get my boss’ job.

    How do I ask what my department head’s plans are? I’d hate to turn down this opportunity only to find that they will bring in a new boss later this year.

    1. irene adler*

      “How do you see [boss position] changing or developing over the next half-dozen years?”
      Might preface this with a question about what the dept’s plans or goals are for the next few years.

      1. Emma*

        That’s probably a good way to start.
        What i am really asking is ”will i get the position or should i keep looking elsewhere?” but I dont want to be pushed out early if they are thinking of bringing in a new boss.

        I need to get them understand that I want the position and am ready to take it over, without coming on too strong.

        1. Pennalynn Lott*

          What about something like, “If you’re starting to plan for Retiring Boss’s replacement, I just want to put it out there that I’m interested in the position.” You could even add, “Is that something that you could see happening?”

  64. Environmental Compliance*

    Hubs’ workplace (whose parent company worked a lot with Boeing) has laid off a ton of people… and Hubs has decided to low-key start looking for jobs as well.

    Which we have decided to shift back to our home state to be closer to family! So I am now totally switching gears and looking at a whole bunch o’ positions back in Central WI. If we’re both looking at moving, and we were thinking of going back to WI in 5-7 years, it seems prudent to just move now if we find the right opportunities.

    I’m hopeful. There’s a handful of really interesting companies out there, both manufacturing and consulting.

    60% of the management team is actively looking for a new position. We also have at least 25-30% of the facility staff who are actively looking, with a significant portion as well between facility staff & middle management ready to retire. We haven’t been profitable for the entire time I have been here, except for one or two months here or there.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      And now Boss wants us to set in stone our vacation for the next year. Yeah, bud, I don’t know what days yet I might want to take in August. I could understand if this was for time off at a week at a time, but it’s being pushed for literally any time off, a day or 2 weeks. I do not have every single hour of my PTO planned for the next calendar year.

      Plus, it doesn’t matter for the most part if multiples are out at one time. I do not cover for Operations. Within the same department? Sure, but the Safety Mngr and I can coordinate like adults, just like the two other managers that probably shouldn’t be out at the same time.

    2. Texan In Exile*

      I keep seeing a writing job for Sentry in Wausau that I would apply for if I lived there. There are billboards from Oshkosh to Medford begging for factory people. It looks like the market is good up there! Good luck!

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        There’s way more postings in the area than I expected! There are two positions I’m hoping very much for a call back – a paper mill & a place that makes firefighting equipment.

        Looks like too there’s a ton of jobs for Hubs in that stretch as well. Hubs has decided that his new weekend activity is looking for neat houses in the area. There’s actually a decent amount of those, too!

        Seems like this is going in a good direction so far!

  65. LuckyClover*

    So, I got a job offer yesterday that I am definitely going to take. However, giving my current boss notice is giving me major anxiety. My heart rate is so high and I know that some of this fear may be irrational – but he’s also a very unpredictable scary dude.

    I have only been at my current job for 8 months, but when I got this new director 2 months in, things took a turn for the worse. He made many significant changes to my role without consultation and expects me to never say no or “not now” to any task regardless of my current workload. In staff meetings in front of everyone he’s said that the last person in my role got fired because they told him they didn’t have enough time do do what he wanted them to do. I came to the determination that things were not going to calm down, and he isn’t a reasonable manager, so I started looking casually, but ended up landing a new position in a field actually relevant to my masters’ degree that also includes a 20% raise!

    Does anyone have any suggestions for a script for when I go in there? I just know he’s going to berate me.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      “I’ve accepted a new position. My last day will be X. Let me know what you need from me to help with the transition.” And leave if he gets angry. Also, make sure all of your personal stuff is packed and/or off your work computer, because he might just ask you to leave. But most of all, remember that you have a new job! With more money! And you’re getting out of there! And once you walk out, you don’t have to deal with him anymore.

      HOWEVER, don’t resign until you’ve accepted the new offer and all the dates are worked out!

    2. Amber Rose*

      You don’t need a script, you need to carefully create an attitude of “I don’t care.”

      He’s not going to hit you or cause you harm and you already have a better job lined up. There’s nothing left here to cause you any harm. His berating you is the yapping of a small angry dog that can’t do anything. It’s not frightening or reason for anxiety. It’s funny.

      You’re wondering if there isn’t something you can say to make him not be angry, but you can’t control his reactions. You can control yours.

      1. Yarrow*

        I’m a huge fan of scripts because I suck at improvising. But this is still good advice. Create an invisible barrier of awesomeness around you. If you’re used to getting anxious with him, you’re probably still going to feel that way after the conversation, so pretend not to care in front of him, then let it all out later. Remember you don’t deserve being treated like that and you’re not responsible for how he reacts. You don’t have to play nice for him.

    3. Pennalynn Lott*

      If he’s irrational enough to say, “You can’t quit, you’re fired,” then email him your two weeks’ notice.

      If he’s not that level of nuts, then just say, “I’ve had an amazing offer drop in my lap so [date] will be my last day here.”

      If he starts berating you, you can simply walk away. He’s not your problem anymore. He has no power over you. The worst thing he can do is ask you to leave immediately. If your company normally pays out the final two weeks for people who are escorted out immediately, then you will have just been given a paid two weeks’ vacation!

      And, yes, I 100% agree with AvonLady that you should get all your personal stuff off the property and off your computer before saying anything.

  66. I See Real People*

    I am excited to say that today is my last day at my current job. I love a few of my coworkers here, but I’ve been underemployed in this position and the culture here is pretty toxic. At my new job, I’ll be getting paid better in a more challenging, more formal atmosphere. I haven’t told anyone here where I’m going, generally dodging when they ask the ‘where’ question by saying “I’m just moving on”. It’s awkward, but it’s the best reply I could come up with.

    I’m curious as to everyone else’s experience here on AAM…Has anyone else leaving a job been asked “where are you going?” and what was your reply?

    1. De Minimis*

      I’ve always been fairly open, even when it was in a bad environment similar to what you describe [pretty much my last two jobs have been like that.]

      One thing I regret last time is that I got a little too candid in my exit interview. I’d intended to keep it neutral but the manager kept asking so it eventually wore me down. And then I ended up having to file a wage claim on them after I left…..

      1. I See Real People*

        Oh wow! That’s kind of my worry.
        No exit interview here, thank goodness. I have given a detailed one before and it didn’t go over too well, so I try to skip those!

    2. WellRed*

      I think it would be odder NOT to ask where you are going. Unless you have reason, not sure why so many people think so much needs to Shrouded in Secrecy.

    3. Pennalynn Lott*

      I have no problem telling people where I’ll be working. Heck, I’m going to put it on my LinkedIn profile on my official First Day at the new company, so it’s not like it’s classified information.

  67. Anonymous Educator*

    Has anyone else switched from schools/non-profits to corporate and just not gotten over the shock of making such a ridiculously higher salary for doing essentially the same work… sometimes even easier work?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      And the availability of supplies – there is a closet with pens, and paper, and everything else I might need! Yes, it can be a culture shock, but in a very good way. Enjoy.

      1. Holy Moley*

        Yes! But I do miss the culture of non-profits. My old work was so much less formal. But I couldn’t survive on the wages they paid.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        There was a definite culture shock of “wait, I don’t need to beg and plead and argue that I need new pens? Y’all just ordered me a full set of highlighters *in every color of the rainbow* because you saw I liked color coding stuff? What even is this place??!”

        Much to the amusement of the admin & my boss, lol. It was definitely an adjustment, both for culture and the salary.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Um, no.

      This just hasn’t been my experience. Most of the time it seems to me that working in the corporate world, they are much more concerned with short-term costs and penny-pinching. The corporate world doesn’t seem to pay as well or have as good of benefits and isn’t very concerned with retaining, or even attracting competent workers. Maybe it’s different for management positions.

  68. Coyote and Badger are Friends*

    I am for the very first time in my entire life having to bring a personnel issue to HR. I feel that it needs to be done, but I’m pretty well terrified and could use some good wishes. (I’m told that our HR is very good, but still, butterflies.)

    3. Stornry*

      Please don’t be too nervous – that is what HR is for; they WANT to know what’s going on. we can’t fix problems we don’t know about. If they already have a good reputation, they’ll take care of you.

  69. DoomCarrot*

    Hi, me again! I’m five weeks away from my contract expiring and my supervisor still hasn’t given me a yes or no, so right now, I’m working on my CV to try to sell “didn’t finish PhD, but here’s what I did do”.

    So, question: one of the things I’m very proud of is that last autumn, on the strength of my publications and conference presentations, I was invited to give a TEDx talk. This was done on my own time, but the topic is basically what I am (or was?) researching.

    Is this a relevant thing to include in my CV? Only if it’s very topical, e.g. for a job in science communication? And if so, where do I put it? Do I use it as an example of public speaking skills, put it in the dreaded “hobby” section, pretend it’s a work accomplishment? Should I include a link, or just trust that if they want to see it, they’ll find it?

    1. Murphy*

      (Fellow PhD dropout here) Definitely relevant! If you have a publications and presentations section on your resume/CV, I’d put it there.

        1. Filosofickle*

          I don’t know about “normally” but I’ve definitely seen corporate folks add a pubs/presentation section. Those pieces don’t always fit under a job, and even if it did you may want to highlight it separately anyway because it would be easy to overlook or doesn’t fit with the “accomplishments” narrative you want under each job. This feels especially right for a Ted Talk type situation.

          1. GreyNerdShark*

            I had a publications section on my resume because I had a piece on computer security in a national magazine. It was a bit bare, just that one thing, but I figured it was very relevant. It showed I could write for a mostly non tech audience and do it well enough to get it published. Communication of technical things to non tech people is gold in the corporate setting.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Nationally recognized medium? HECK YES! This is interesting enough you should review the recording online and be prepared to discuss the presentation and any glitches in an interview. (Both your topic and the process itself.)

    3. Flyleaf*

      It depends on how it relates to the job you are seeking. If it is in the same field, definitely include it (e.g., the talk is about analyzing data for the United Way when you are looking for a data scientist job). It it’s not related, you can leave it out (e.g., the talk is about new weaving knots in modern poncho designs when you are looking for a data scientist job).

      1. DoomCarrot*

        I’m teapot engineer currently working on a PhD in the history of drip guards; the talk was on how I use virtual reality to make people understand historic teapot design better. To be reasonably vague about it.

        So it should be at least tangentially related to anything I’m likely to apply for in my field.

  70. Small but Fierce*

    I graduated college in 2015 and started a full-time internship immediately after graduation. Since then, I worked at two companies for 1.75 and 2.5 years respectively. In my current company, I’ve held 3 positions – marketing specialist, associate product manager, and product manager. I’ve been in my current role for 6 months.

    My company is currently undergoing a major acquisition and I feel like I need to get ahead of lay offs. Ever since I changed from marketing to product, my recruiter activity diminished significantly. I’m also not getting nearly as many responses from applications. I’ve been applying for both marketing and product roles.

    Any ideas as to how to improve my chances? I tailor my resume for each application, but I’m concerned that I appear like I’m job hopping or that I don’t qualify for either marketing or product roles at this point (due to time away from function and lack of time in function respectively).

    1. Small but Fierce*

      Additional info that might be relevant: I’m currently in an online MBA program that I’m slated to graduate from in 2021. I include this on my resume.

    2. Yarrow*

      I don’t think those time periods look like job hopping. IT’s pretty typical for someone out of college for a few years. I’d concentrate on writing some good cover letters that show your experience and interest in marketing/product management. Go into detail about projects you’ve worked on, results you’ve gotten and demonstrate the kind of traits they’re looking for.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        Thanks! I do submit a cover letter when I can, and I definitely can improve the cover letter. Right now I dedicate more space to summarizing my experience and reasons for leaving, which may not be the best use of that space.

        That said, I find that a lot of applications don’t let you upload a cover letter. A lot of my “Easy Apply” applications on LinkedIn get reviewed and rejected, so I keep wondering if it’s me that’s the problem since they’re getting viewed.

  71. Nonprofit Doesn't Care about Mission*

    I work for a nonprofit that runs a few programs. The funders require the bare minimum–basically, that we enroll and “provide services to” certain clients. They don’t require outcomes at all. I was hired over a year ago to supposedly get the programs in shape, track outcomes, and increase outcomes. But essentially, no one cares enough to make the changes to actually provide better service. The executive director claims to want the org to strive for “excellence” but in reality he provides no supervision whatsoever to the program directors and managers.

    Its so discouraging to me, because I work in nonprofits to make an impact on the community. And I do program evaluation specifically to maximize that impact. But instead I’m making less money than I would in the for-profit sector, all so that our crappy, ineffective programs can get rubber stamped by some pencil pushers. It’s extra tough bc I’m super passionate about the mission–but we don’t live up to the mission.

    Not to mention, they’ll be in for a rude awakening with the funders do start asking for outcomes, which is a big nonprofit trend and inevitably will happen soon.

    Really hope I find a new job soon.

    1. M*

      Oh, god, you could be describing the non-profit I worked for a couple of year’s back down to a T. (You’re not in London, are you?)

      I’d love to have useful advice, but like you, I just got the hell off the ship before a funder cared enough to make a fuss and it sank. (They’d pretty clearly been blacklisted from pretty much every place they’d ever gotten a grant from as soon as they got audited, and were steadily running out of obvious funding options, but it had largely just resulted in grants not being renewed, rather than anyone actually making a fuss, sadly.)

      The one thing I can say from experience: if they’ve been like this for more than a year or so, I can guarantee you others have tried to fix it. If you do, they’ll just drive you out. Get out, make any relevant whistleblower reports you can, and move on.

      1. M*

        (and importantly: get out before they need a scapegoat for a funder, because they *will* throw you under the bus)

  72. Time for me to fly*

    I’ve been talking to an employer who made me a great offer last year – which I declined because it wasn’t the Right Time. Now I’m anticipating another offer because it is the right time, so… How do I negotiate? I have no idea how the offer will compare to last year’s.

  73. Chiefs*

    Man, this week has DRAGGED on. My husband and I were on vacation in Hawaii last week. It’s been so hard going from a relaxing week with beautiful weather, to a cold, busy week at work. Despite being busy, it’s been a fun week as our very own Kansas City Chiefs won the Superbowl on Sunday!! My work let us all take a midday break to let us watch the parade, which we all very much appreciated. Happy Friday, all!

  74. Phone Police*

    Probably going to get buried BUT –

    I have a staff member who always has her desk phone forwarded to her personal cell phone. Like…always. For years. I’m not sure why, exactly, but I have had to ask her in the past to restrain her use of cell phone during meetings, etc. She ALWAYS has her cell phone. It is not a job-issued cell phone.

    I don’t know what it is, exactly, but this drives me crazy and I find it unprofessional. Yet the fact that I can’t articulate “why” leads me to believe this is just my problem and I need to get over it. The sound quality is about what you’d expect when calling from a VOIP Cisco phone to a cell. If it’s relevant, this person does zero travel for her job and, rarely has meetings, etc.

    Thoughts?

    1. Yarrow*

      IS there a specific policy against this? Is it a security issue? Is she answering calls during meetings? That’s the only weird part I’m seeing.

      1. Phone Police*

        I’m not really sure if there’s a policy against it. IDK if it’s a security issue. She does not answer calls in meetings unless she notifies the team in advance that she might need to do so.

    2. Mid*

      I guess I don’t really see the issue…I forward my desk phone to my cell phone often. Most people in my office do that. None of the calls I get are particularly time sensitive, but it works out just fine anyway. It’s just easier when I’m going to be away from my desk for a chunk of time. It’s really common in most offices I’ve been in (which, to be fair, is not many)

      Do you think she uses her cell phone too much overall? Are you worried about her taking confidential calls in public places? Do you think she’s taking personal calls and using her forwarded desk phone to cover it up?

      Have you asked her why she does this? Maybe her desk phone is hard to use, or her handset is hard to hear? Maybe the caller ID isn’t helpful but her cell phone’s is?

      I guess you should think about what specifically you think is unprofessional, and think about if something else is actually bothering you, but the cell phone is becoming the symbol of those issues.

      1. Phone Police*

        Well, this person is not away for a chunk of time, unscheduled. And when she is, it’s for work or appointments where she should not be answering work calls anyway. After a big meeting about some exempt/nonexempt changes a few years ago, I *tried* then to tell her she should not be answering work calls (and not forwarding work phone to cell) or checking email when she is not “on the clock.” Clearly, it fell flat.

        I am not worried about her taking confidential calls in public. I do feel she takes more personal calls than I do, but I hardly ever take personal calls at work, so…I don’t know? She does use a bluetooth headset, possibly for both phone and streaming music or whatever at work, so maybe it’s easier to hear a phone call if it comes through that way.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I suspect that Bluetooth headset just answered your own question. No mucking with wires. I’m going to request nor for myself actually–
          last month I had a close call with Skype headset wires nearly pulling the laptop off my desk when I turned to get a requested reference.
          Can you get her one for her work phone?

    3. MommyShark*

      I forward my desk phone to my WORK cell phone. First, I hate our voicemail system. It takes three times as long to get through the menu options to get to the voicemail than the voicemail itself actually is. Second, I’m away from my desk more than I’m at it and prefer to be accessible. Your situation is a bit different, but maybe she has a legitimate reason? Can you disable the forwarding feature?

      1. Phone Police*

        I doubt I could disable forwarding, and I honestly wouldn’t want to if this is a “just me” problem. If there is a legitimate business reason why she shouldn’t be doing this beyond “I don’t like it,” then I’ll have that conversation. I just didn’t know if there was a consensus out there on it…

    4. Mrs Peaches*

      Start by asking her why she has her calls forwarded. Like others have said, there may be a legit reason. I can also see reasons why it wouldn’t be ideal, like if a customer is confused because they’re calling your office and reaching someone’s cell phone instead. Does she answer her cell phone in a reasonably professional manner? Is her voicemail message appropriate?

      1. Phone Police*

        I have no idea if her voicemail is professional or not. I am guessing so, as she’s also part-time realtor. I believe when it’s not me calling she will say “This is [name],” but snce it’s just me calling will answer it “hey” “or “hello” which is fine by me.

        1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          My guess is it’s the part-time realtor thing. So she can blur the lines as to what type of call she is on, and get away with doing realtor work while on the clock with you guys.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          The part-time realtor aspect is key info. If you’re her supervisor yes I’d discuss how she guarantees she is not taking real-estate calls on the clock.

    5. SomebodyElse*

      When you’ve talked to her about restraining her cell phone usage was this before setting the calls to forward? Was she using the phone for personal reasons at that time?

      I’m with you, this would bug me. I think because I’d see it as a way for her to cover personal phone usage. Like, it could be a work call and how would anyone know it wasn’t.

      Based on that, yes, I’d pull the manager card on this one and tell her it’s not allowed.

      1. Phone Police*

        I think she’s been setting the calls to forward all along. And when I asked her to restrain her usage, I am assuming she was responding to texts, playing on internet, checking email and banking, or even checking work email, which is unnecessary/inappropriate in our context.

        The thing about covering for personal usage, though, is that…this person is fairly secluded. There’s no really great way to know that anyway, expecially without asking for someone else to specificaly monitor/tattle.

        1. valentine*

          If you want her to stop forwarding and leave her phone in her bag, that’s enough and you can tell her so. Is it work calls she’s answering during meetings? I’m guessing you don’t, so is there really a business need for that?

    6. Word Nerd*

      I work on a huge team and we ALL do this. Easier voicemail access, we’re always away from our desks. When we’re at our desks, we’re in open space, so all the calls that would be ringing are now vibrating on our cell phones. Our stakeholders know our cell numbers anyway, so why get calls on two different devices? Personally, I wear noise-cancelling in-ears, and my fitness watch will vibrate when I get a cell phone call, so I know to pick up.

    7. Ann Perkins*

      I would only see this as a problem if her cell phone voicemail was unprofessional, or it caused her to not return calls, or if there were frequent distractions around. I always have my cell phone with me too because I need to be available if a kid get sick or injured at childcare.

    8. Pennalynn Lott*

      How’s her overall work product? Does she get things done on time and correctly? If she is otherwise a good employee, then who cares how/when she uses her cell phone?

      But if her work is lackluster and extensive personal cell phone usage could be the culprit, you can have a talk with her about needing to spend more time working / brushing up on skills / whatever will bring her work quality up to where it needs to be.

    9. Nom de Plume*

      Huh, several people at work have their desk phones permanently forwarded to their cell phones. And pretty much everyone in the company has their cell phones on them at all times. We are in consulting and many people are often in meetings/at job sites, etc. I take it that it’s way out of the norm for your industry?

  75. Sarah-tonin*

    hi! i’m looking for full-time librarian jobs (leaning towards academic but would do public) or not libraries at all, although that’s where almost all of my work experience is, so idk how i think i’ll get a non-library job ever.

    anyway, i don’t drive, partially due to anxiety but mostly due to my eyesight – i could legally drive during the day, but i do not trust my eyes at all and my eye doctor said i couldn’t ever drive at night. so i’d need public transit anyway. what are the cities with the best public transit options? i know of the big cities, and i’d love to stay in the chigoland area, but i’m looking into moving if i had to.

    thanks! <3

    1. Yarrow*

      Consider law firm libraries and corporate legal departments. There are tons of them in larger cities, but the competition for jobs may be fierce. It’s better if you have some reference experience. I’ve also seen some openings at publishers for indexing and reader advisory-type stuff that would be good for a public librarian.

      Source: law librarian and former public librarian

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        thanks! do you have any tips on where to search for those jobs, or specific titles to look for? i have a ton of reference experience, which sounds like it’s helpful! :)

        1. Yarrow*

          I Need A Library Job compiles relevant job postings every day. Also careers.iltanet.org. Common job titles are reference librarian, research librarian, knowledge management librarian, etc. If you’re in North America, check out AALLnet.org. Some jobs postings will say they prefer a candidate with a JD, but I’d apply anyway if you’re otherwise qualified. I actually don’t know many of us that have a JD unless they were lawyers first and I don’t think it’s necessary. You probably want to emphasize any experience you have meeting deadlines, working with diverse groups of people, and learning new research products/strategies on the fly. It’s good work if you’re OK with not always being the expert. I’m always learning new things and I rarely get the same request twice so I have to think quickly.

          1. Sarah-tonin*

            thank you so much for the tips (sorry for my delay in responding)! I do have experience with what you mentioned, so that’s good. and I am def okay with not being the expert. your job sounds like a great experience!

    2. Ranon*

      Walkscore has a transit score which can be a helpful tool- the overall city rankings aren’t as helpful because everyone draws their city limits differently but you can get a good feel of which cities have a decent transit core at least. If you look up the score of where you currently live that will give you a metric to aim for.

  76. Ciela*

    I was thinking about the letter earlier this week from someone who was the smelly co-worker, although in her case it sounded like 3 isolated laundry / deodorant mishaps.
    I have a very smelly co-worker, but am not sure if there’s anything to be done. She has been smelly for years now. It did start suddenly. The first day it happened, no fewer than 6 people walked past her desk, exclaimed “Did the toilet flood again?!?”, checked the bathroom, and otherwise checked for the source of the odor. That first day, I thought she might have stepped in poop, and not realized it until she got to work. Okay, shit happens.
    But it’s gone on for years now. On good days I’d describe the odor as “manure” on bad days ” diaper pail”. There is no one at work who is particularly close to her. Bosses don’t want to hear “over 40% of her work needs to be re-done because it is completely inaccurate”. So I can’t imagine they’d be receptive to a “she smells like poo” conversation.
    How has she not noticed? How has her husband not noticed?
    It’s got to be some kind of health issue that can’t be helped? Otherwise why would anyone smell so bad for so long?

    1. nep*

      Is it possibly her breath? Or does it seem like a body or clothing odor?
      Does she otherwise appear to follow good hygiene habits–hair, teeth, clothing?

      1. nep*

        (Obstetric fistula can cause such odors, but I highly doubt that’s the issue here given how long it’s gone on. But I think you might be on the right track thinking it’s a health problem.)

      2. Ciela*

        I think it’s a body issue? Hair and clothes seem to always be neat and tidy. You can detect the odor from 6-8 feet away. Sometimes more on bad days.

        1. nep*

          That’s really something. It’s amazing to me her supervisor has not talked with her about it.
          I’ve got bad breath–intermittent or constant, tough to tell. But I know it’s an issue. I’ve asked coworkers to tell me and not to feel bad about letting me know if it is really noticeable so I can go do something about it in the moment. For me it’s less embarrassing/troublesome if they know I know.
          It would really bother me if I had such a noticeable odor and no one at work told me about it. A manager should take it upon himself/herself/themselves to do that, IMHO.

          1. Ciela*

            they do not seem inclined to address the issue of her spending 3-4 hours a day texting / making personal calls, and being on the clock for 10-12 hours, but only doing maybe 3 hours of work. And all that is very much a work issue. They really, really, do not want to have awkward conversations.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m wondering is she has a colostomy or something? Family anecdote: my very overweight aunt had a little trouble reaching to clean herself on the toilet and my mom realized it after wondering why she could smell poo. Awkward on two levels there.

      2. Ciela*

        It’s possible? She is rather thin, so unless she has very severe arthritis, or something else that limits mobility, which I don’t think so (?), I can’t imagine that wiping would be the issue.

        I’m just glad my work area is not near her desk…

        1. Oh no*

          Oh, I am the smelly coworker :(
          A chronic condition causes
          1) bacterial stench from mouth and nose strong enough for others to smell it from far away
          2) my medication causes the rest of my body to smell strongly of sweat/stress/acrid smell
          3) I don’t have a sense of smell myself any longer but the whiffs of smell I occasionally get are terrifying. And it’s all very embarrassing.

          My guess is that the coworker doesn’t smell it herself.

  77. Mid*

    Is it okay to lie to a coworker?

    Context being: I know for a fact she’s going to be fired. I’m not supposed to know, but I know with 100% certainty it is happening, and relatively soon (as soon as we can hire someone else on, as the workload is too much for two people.) This coworker shouldn’t be surprised (she’s been failing to do the work, there have been a lot of meetings with her about performance, etc), but likely will be. She also asks me A LOT if I think she’s going to be fired. I am the lowest in seniority in the office, and literally the only person below her in the hierarchy, so I have zero authority or say in the matter. But, even though I try to deflect and encourage her, I feel bad knowing what I now know.

    How do I handle this? She hasn’t asked me if I think she’s going to be fired since I found out, but it’s only a matter of time. I hate lying, but it’s also not my place to say anything. I just really wish I didn’t know this information.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Yes. Lie to her at least with an “I don’t know.”

      You’re not supposed to know, but if you reveal it to her you’re letting confidential business information out. It sounds like the company wants her to work until they hire her replacement and that’s a valid decision. Don’t risk your own job for her and the sake of honesty.

      And, really, she is placing you in tough spot. That’s the kind of question it’s impolite to ask people because it puts them in a rough spot. Or at least people like you who are junior to her and have no say in the decision. It would be appropriate to discuss with her manager.

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      You’re not supposed to know. So act as if you don’t. This isn’t a matter of lying to a colleague (who should see the writing on the wall), but of professional and business ethics. Apparently those were broken at some point which is why you know; it’s now on you not to breach those ethics.

      If she asks if you think she’s going to be fired, put this back on her. “Why do you ask that, Jane?” or “If you’re worried, you should speak to your supervisor to see if you can improve your performance” or something along those lines.

      Do not give this away, or you could be the next on block.

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        This. 100% of this.

        Positions of trust mean sometimes you have to pretend like you don’t know things you actually do know, because it would be unethical to share those things and admitting you have information while declining to share it is a jerk move.

    3. Fiona*

      Think of it this way: the truth is, you don’t know for SURE until it happens. (Obviously it’s very likely, but again – stranger things have happened than a last-minute change due to crazy factors. E.g., all of a sudden they lose a huge client and replacing her will cost too much, difficulty finding the right replacement, the replacement signs on and then decides to take another job, etc). You can very honestly say something along the lines of “that’s above my pay grade.” (A phrase I’ve always wanted to use!)

      I feel for her and what she must be going through, but it’s totally inappropriate for her to ask YOU, someone lower than her on the hierarchy, whether she’ll be fired. This job is not a good fit and you’re also not responsible for that.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      You might try “I don’t know why you think they’d tell me if they were going to fire you,” or something along those lines that isn’t necessarily a lie.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        “I’m not in a position to know something like that. That’s a $ManagerName question.”

    5. irene adler*

      Stick with “I don’t know”. You shouldn’t know, so really, you do not know. That’s her boss’ domain.

      You have to protect yourself in this situation. Letting her know risks your job for violating a company confidence.

      And when she is fired, you say, “I’m sorry.” But do NOT ever let on that you knew.

      1. irene adler*

        Truly, she should be expending her efforts in looking after her professional situation-not asking you whether you think she will be fired. That doesn’t get her anywhere.

    6. Bernice Clifton*

      How did you find out? Did a decision-maker tell you, or for example did you find out from an admin who always knows everything about everything? If you were actually told by a manager, I’d go back to that manager and explain what she’s saying and ask how she wants you to handle it.

      1. Mid*

        I found out from the recruiter that hired me, sort of. It’s complicated, but I do know the information is legitimate and not just rumor mill. I haven’t told my manager that I know, because I think I’d rather have plausible deniability if the coworker asks me anything.

        1. SomebodyElse*

          So, with this, I’d say no you don’t know for sure. Unless your boss or HR told you she was being fired directly and said the words “Jane is being fired” all you have are rumors, credible rumors maybe, but still rumors.

          Therefore you should not feel like you have to pass them on to anyone including Jane even if asked. Because that would be a reckless thing to do.

  78. tempmanager*

    I’m a temporary manager covering a mat leave, and I’ve inherited all of my reports. Before my predecessor left, she pointed out that some of my staff had issues with one coworker, “Paul.” The problems were that he made…noises at his desk. Sneezing, coughing, nose-blowing, personal cell phone ringing and ahem, flatulence. My predecessor had addressed this with him before, and for a while, the noises had stopped but would start again after a while.

    The main complainant, Jane, said that if I didn’t move his workstation away from her, she would go to HR. I was still pretty new and had a new person moving into the office who worked closely with Jane, so I explained the new person would need Paul’s workspace, he’d move to another near my office and offered one day a week working from home which he had asked for previously. Jane ended up covering for a colleague on another team for a few months and didn’t end up moving back to her old desk. Paul moved near my office and so far everything has been fine.

    In fact, Paul’s noises are…not bad at all? I haven’t heard any flatulence though his nose-blowing is very loud and um, “trumpet-y” so I wonder if that was “misdiagnosed.” His phone rings some time but…mine does too? Everyone’s does? That’s a pretty common office noise? The coughing, nose-blowing and sneezing are loud, but that’s just how some people are (in private I can sneeze pretty loudly myself.) I’m not very stoked to police anyone’s involuntary noises, to be honest.

    Jane is moving back to her old spot soon, and I’m pretty disappointed that she made kind of a mountain out of a molehill here and not sure to handle this going forward if she brings complaints forward. People make noises in offices; it’s a part of work. Any advice for this situation when Jane moves back to the old spot?

    1. BelleMorte*

      I wonder if Jane has misphonia or something similar where standard noises become intolerable.

      Honestly, people are people, they are going to make noise. There are no offices that are completely silent. People are going to type, they are going to cough and sneeze and talk and breathe, and *gasp* burp and fart. For what it’s worth, Paul may have a deviated septum leading to trumpety nose blowing. Mine was like that before I had surgery to fix it. He may have chronic gastric issues, there are a whole slew of things that might lead to bodily noises that are protected under the ADA. Unless Paul is walking over to Jane’s desk and farting AT her, she really doesn’t have a leg to stand on here.

      Jane needs to suck it up unless she has a diagnosed disability that needs ADA modifications for, but she needs to request that.

      1. valentine*

        Just because you tolerate the noise doesn’t mean it’s objectively tolerable. You are perhaps more tolerant, as well as not wanting to do anything about it. But say you did. In the original plan and in yours, what consequences were planned if Paul doesn’t stop resurrecting the noises?

        Do other people cough, etc., as loud or for as long a time or with the same quality (raspy vs. wet, screaming sneeze versus serial at lower volume)? Are his noises constant or happening more often than for others? Are other people’s ringtones as loud or is Paul’s different in a way that’s understandably annoying? (There was a recent Reddit post from a young guy whose GF threatened to dump him if he didn’t change his ringtone, which he described as similar to a laughing chipmunk. He should’ve kept it. (But not at work!))

        Why is it okay for multiple people to be so annoyed? I think you’re seeing it as Jane v. Paul, but what about the others? Have you asked them whether they buried the lede and it’s his work that’s the problem or whether the farts were vomit-inducing and the last straw?

        If you’re really sure, you can tell Jane you don’t see a case to answer. Let her go to HR. See what happens.

        1. tempmanager*

          Great questions. I’m probably more sensitive than the average person to noise; I have ADHD, and repetitive noises can make it hard to focus. But maybe I’ve also had to develop coping strategies for my condition consciously, so who knows. I don’t *love* the frequent throat clearing and nose blowing, but I don’t love the sound of copiers and printers either, and sometimes that’s just how it goes.

          The others in the office typically wear headphones or are in and out of meetings or on the phone a lot, so I haven’t heard complaints from others directly, but Jane says they complain to her. Jane chooses not to wear headphones. I would tell other people cough, blow their noses, have ringing cell phones all at typical human frequencies, which is to say it sometimes happens. It’s an office of 20 people. People make noises.

          I think letting Jane go to HR is probably a good idea. Or at the very least to encourage Jane to bring her concerns directly to Paul.

      1. M*

        Or that Paul and Jane hate each other more generally, and Paul’s been responding (pettily) by being noisier than he actually needs to be, and/or Jane’s been responding (pettily) by making constant complaints. Doesn’t have to be one or the other – it *can* be both.

  79. Show Me Potato Salad*

    Does anyone in the privacy field have any experience on the usefulness of getting the CIPP/US certification? I’m currently at a tech company but in the legal department working on negotiations of contracts. I would love to get out of the negotiation arena, and it looks like privacy/risk may be a good area to look into. I don’t have specific experience other than what normally comes up in the course of negotiating technology contracts. For example, I have a general understanding of HIPAA, PCI-DSS, GDPR, etc. but very high level. Would getting the CIPP/US help my job prospects at all? Would something else be more useful?

  80. Nervous Nellie*

    Hi friends!

    I have a conundrum I would love your feedback on. You may recall that I was laid off right before the holidays (stay classy, former ToxicCo!), and have been looking for new work since. I am mid-50s, in finance, in a high cost-of-living coastal tech corner of the US.

    Well! What do I do with this? In these last 6 weeks, I have had five phone screen interviews and three in-person interviews, and was offered the job in FIVE cases. Should be home free, right? But…..in all five, the companies’ big reveal was that……ta da! They have cut salaries by 20-30 percent to pad their coffers in the inevitable event of the overdue market crash that they all feel is coming. I had to turn down all five of these roles because not one would come close to paying my bills. A year or two ago, the same jobs and same job title would have amply done so. I have a medical issue that would prevent me from working a second job, so I really need the one to be adequate.

    To combat this I have started taking some online courses to add to my credentials, and brainstorming more senior job titles that I could maybe charm/fast-talk my way into. Can you suggest any more strategies?

    At one job I was told by the interview panel that I was the unanimous choice, and that they are going to try to reconfigure the role to fit me in. But as Yoda says, breath I am not holding. I would love some fresh ideas about what the heck to do here! Thank you, friends!

      1. Nervous Nellie*

        Yes, thanks WellRed – sure did, but none of the five had any wiggle room. It’s getting comical how tight they’re all getting!

  81. TTDH*

    Any advice on looking for internal jobs when what you really want is to get the hell out of the geographical region you’re in? For context, I would be happy enough with my job of half a decade despite lack of advancement opportunities, but I absolutely hate the area where it’s based. We uprooted our lives completely to move here for this job, but we have never found a cultural fit in the community – instead, several “false fits” that have resulted in a lot of pain for myself and my family when we discovered the depth of the hidden prejudice many people in this area have against our ethnic group. We’d prefer to return to our home region but are open to other areas. However, my employer’s major US sites are my site and another that is both far from our families and very HCOL, and it would be difficult to impossible for me to work remotely in my current position due to the nature of the work.

    Obviously I’m going to be looking for outside opportunities, but if I do stay with my current company in a remote job I would need to change specialties, and most likely to something that I’d be good at but has never been a stated part of my professional development plans. Does anyone have any tips on whether it’s advisable to bring this idea up with my manager, or how to pitch it? At my company, your current manager needs to know *before* you start the application process for an internal job), so if I don’t speak with him about this then I can’t apply for anything internal at all. Or is it just a better idea to focus externally, despite the fact that my niche specialization isn’t worth much outside my industry?

    1. Mrs Peaches*

      First of all, I’m really sorry you’re dealing with prejudice, and I wish you the best of luck in finding the next career step.

      IME it’s common to have to notify your manager before formally applying for an internal job, but usually the hiring manager will be happy to have an off-the-record conversation about the role and your fit. It may not be confidential, but it can give you an idea of whether its worth moving forward. Focus that conversation on what skills you already have, and getting a feel for how much additional training you would need for the new role.

  82. How do you know?*

    How do you know when you are ready to move up? I am a technical worker, but have done a lot of side-work in various projects on the social side to try to improve my managerial skills. The departments have pretty much done away with middle management with the majority of people reporting to directors.

    There is a director position opening that I think I am kind of qualified for in various ways, but I’m missing a few things that I can only learn if I am a director (hiring, for example, only directors and HR can sit on panels).

    Does it seem presumptuous to apply for a big step forward when historically you would go tech>team lead>supervisor>manager>director, except now all the team leads/supervisors/manager roles are gone?

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t know if this is helpful but I truly think if you think you may be ready you should go for it. Obviously plenty of people think they will be good at something they’re not? But most of us are often realistic,

  83. Unexpected Dragon*

    Make me feel better, please!

    I’ve been researching, developing, thinking, and working on a really important, high profile, highly beneficial project for a long time. It’s finally at the point where I’ve proven my concept is valid, but I can’t do the actual implementation without getting the fancy people excited for it. I just dropped of my “this works, let’s talk about it, and get the timeline sketched out” document. Aaaaand, now there’s a big meeting to ‘discuss ideas’ scheduled.

    I’m taking the response of opening discussion really personally (as this has been a pet project for years). I feel like my expertise isn’t being recognized, nor is all the time and effort I’ve been spending. Tools and tricks for emotionally separating when pet projects becoming communally owned?

    1. NaoNao*

      Just remind yourself that discussion costs nothing. You don’t have to implement the ideas. You can listen, write them down, “consider” them and ultimately…do nothing with them. Part of the implementation phase is fielding all the crack-pot and off center “ideas” that people come up with and rolling with it.

      1. Unexpected Dragon*

        My tension point is that my multi-year researched project is one of the things being discussed, on par with crack-pot, just came up with this ideas. And there’s a bit of history of other people not being experts in my area (duh, I’m the one with my job; I’m no expert on their stuff either), but the proposals of others given more weight than mine. I’m both taking it personally and expecting to have my idea dubbed ‘interesting’ while something way less functional is taken up because more people ‘get’ it.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Find a really catchy, simple way to describe your project, and find allies. I’m kind of in the same boat and just spent three days lobbying on behalf of my pet project in the face of multiple bad ideas that appeared to be given equal weight. I got buy in from the decision makers but also a good number of other people by socializing my ideas with them in side conversations. I also got a lot of valuable intel from more senior people about the politics of the group and have been using that to guide my actions.

          I don’t have any tips to depersonalize the project though. My passion for it drives me to speak up more than I’d normally do, and that seems to be working in my favor at the moment. But I try to keep my bias, my obvious protection of my work, reined in and focus on the objective stuff. Harder to argue with a solid, well expressed, rational position if all you have is vague, ill informed proposals. It definitely alienated some people but that was a risk I was willing to make.

  84. MoinMoin*

    Please help me negotiate/find HR related tasks I can take on from Payroll

    Backstory: I’ve previously worked in operations and client services (considered an accounting/payroll role but more policy development and process management plus spreadsheets). After getting uprooted for my spouse’s job, I took a position that was straight payroll because I clicked with the manager and it was a big company with the promise of a lot of potential for internal movement. She needed help with documentation and organizing payroll policies after some recent acquisitions, I didn’t really know how little a payroll role entailed or what I was getting into, but we agreed in the interview that I’d be there to help with payroll, do these projects, and be looking into moving into another role within 1-2 years. It didn’t really work out how I wanted, the manager retired soon after, the new manager was not interested in me doing the projects I was doing nor did she like that I was actively looking to move towards HR (benefits or preferably a coordinator under one of the generalists or operational development). This became moot when a had a parent diagnosed with a terminal disease and I took about a year off in end of life care and job search.

    Now: I spent some time trying to move into entry level HR but I think it was harder because my last two positions look very Accounting/Payroll on paper since I didn’t worm my way over to HR internally like I’d planned. I’ve actually landed in a great payroll position as a temp, though. I’m the only payroll person of a great medium sized company that treats their people well, lots of room to make the position my own, lots of documentation and process improvement potential, and pay is decent (on the lower end of my range but I think if they made an offer for permanent employment the offer would be closer, I know what the previous person made and it’s slightly on the lower to middle range but I’d be happy with it, especially if I can negotiate for some other things).

    Issue: I know they’ve been pretty happy with me, my great boss is the accounting manager and has offered to help me gain experience in other aspects of accounting, which I’d happy learn, but I also work closely with the HR director and generalist and everyone is aware I’d been looking at moving into HR and would also like to gain some experience there. I’d love to stay here for a couple years, but I’d also love to leave with a title/responsibilities that might help me move towards operations/HR in the future and not shoehorn me into payroll. I also know that ideally there would be some separation of duties from HR and Payroll (not really something that’s done in the small family company in the past, but it’s growing and needs to happen and that’s a part of why I’m here).
    Does anyone have any advice on tasks I might be able to ask for, titles for a more combined role, additional development I might be able to ask for that would still make sense for my current role, anything I might be able to ask for if they offer employment? Or any other advice at all would be appreciated.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The fact you’re working with HR is a critical plus here because you can bring that up. However without knowing their systems, I don’t know what tasks would be best to fall on you. I’d wonder if you could ask the generalist if they have any projects you could be of any assistance with to get the experience?

      Also as an aside, I have a former colleague who went right into HR assistance without any background in it. Her background is chiefly customer service. There are places with an assistant role which may be best for you to think about as well, to get that ground level instead of hoping someone takes a shot at you at the advanced generalist level. With a little background and assistance over there with a generalist or HR manager, most places will still be leery about bringing in someone with limited experience into that typically higher step role.

      Or you can look for a hybrid setup if you’re okay with small businesses. Since you have accounting background, you could look into HR/Accounting/Office Management jobs as well. It could be that you’re looking so strongly at just HR that is what’s holding you back. But if that’s the size and scope you want, it makes all the world of sense. But in terms of the foothold and experiences you’re really craving right now.

      1. MoinMoin*

        Thanks, that helps, and I always like reading your comments so I’m tickled you’d reply to mine. Due to some retirements and an unexpected death, all four of us are pretty new and all come from bigger publicly traded companies into this growing company with a lot of unwritten “we’ve just always done it like this” policies. So I’m working on documenting a lot of that, updating, standardizing, automating…. Right now we use a patchwork of systems but also use ADP for limited HRIS/Payroll but we’re looking at either using them more fully or moving to another system that we can integrate everything into, so I’m excited to help with that. I know the generalist specifically moved to this company because she was looking for a better life-work balance and that hasn’t been happening for the last couple months, so I think she’d love to let me take on a lot of these projects but right now all that’s happened is that most of the HRIS management that Payroll used to do has now moved to HR. Understandably the person paying people shouldn’t be the same as the person entering in new employees and setting their rates, but I’m sad to have it taken away and she’s sad to have to take it.
        I guess I’m confident I can find tasks that would be transferable, but I worry my title, and now a pattern of titles, is going to hold me back. I’d like to stay here 3-5 years if it all works out, so I have time to see what happens, but I’d like to do what I can now to set myself up for the future and I’m having trouble formulating what is realistic to ask for in terms of responsibility or a timeline with that in mind.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Awwww, I’m glad I saw it, I love weighing in on areas like this. Usually HR is in my wheelhouse so I try to respond to those with that kind of question but I’ve been swamped [lol poor me] so I’m infrequent, glad I saw yours though!

          Doing documentation is big stuff, that’ll be good for your resume, that’s a lot of what HR is. Along with staying abreast of the current requirements and new statutes that creep up [seriously, some places suck at properly implementing new laws…some seem to fall out of the sky, sigh.]

          Intriguing to see HR on that level and payroll removed from the layout. That’s not a luxury afforded to the ramshackle small folks, that’s for sure but I see on a corporate level why that’s a thing.

          I think that a lot of places generally see the tie between HR and payroll, so I don’t know the title is that extremely important in the end run if you can list out what your accomplishments/duties have been and how they tie together.

          Titles are often negotiable, so have you thought of what you’d like more so? Like what about a hybrid kind of thing? Over the years I see a lot of like maybe Payroll Processor & HR Assistant or something like that? To kind of show the connection. But I’m not sure how those hybrid titles will work in a larger business, since that’s extremely out of my realm.

          I only recently got away from A/B/C&D titles so I am familiar with them all too well, until I just found an umbrella that still isn’t the right one but it’s fine enough and more broadly used.

          But again, I can see your POV on the title issue but it’s something to really review with your boss to see if there’s anything they can do there.

    2. Stornry*

      one HR task that is related to payroll is Leaves of Absence — since with PTO and such, people may still get a paycheck while off work. The paperwork for FMLA can be a bear so the generalist may jump at the chance to have help tracking and making sure both the company and the employee are in compliance.

  85. Do we have a problem here?*

    Let me preface this by saying I understand that it’s inappropriate to use office resources for personal use, and I also understand that most people do it. I’ll admit that I occasionally do (like printing personal documents or using the scanner at work) and it doesn’t bother me if my staff occasionally does the same. 

    I manage a small department, and we have an Amazon Prime business account that we use to purchase office supplies and materials for our programs. I recently discovered that one of my employees has made dozens of personal purchases using our business account and keeps multiple wishlists for future personal purchases. She’s also been using all the digital services that come with Prime, including streaming some raunchy movies. To be clear, she’s paying for all of this with her personal credit card, and I don’t have any evidence that she’s shopping on the clock.

    I’m torn about how big a deal it is and whether to put a stop to it. There’s no incremental cost that I’m aware of for using our Prime account this way; it’s not like she’s stealing office supplies. She’s a single parent who likely can’t afford a Prime subscription herself, and I’m sure the free shipping and kid-friendly digital content really helps for her. On the other hand, if my other employees all used our account this way it would be a mess, and it’s not really fair to the employees who pay for their own subscription. I’m new-ish to the department and I don’t know whether my predecessor affirmatively allowed this, wasn’t aware of it, or was aware and just didn’t want to address it (she was not a proactive manager). So what say the readers?

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      Change the password, sign out of all other devices, remove her (and any other employee’s) credit card, from the account, and then keep tighter control of who has it.

      Also, make a blanket announcement that employees are no longer to use the company Prime account for their personal use. Don’t call out names. This should be a general rule, but you may have to spell it out.

      1. valentine*

        Cut her off and shut her down. Sit her down, tell her it’s inappropriate, and ask her why she thought it was. I’d still be surprised if she had asked, but the fact she didn’t and plans to keep at it paints her in a bad light. This crosses the line in a way that the odd print job, fax, and Post-It or walking out with a pen doesn’t. It’s a security breach and bleed-through and, apart from anything else, you don’t want her personal stuff (especially the movies!) associated with your company. I wouldn’t trust her with accounts again. If you don’t already have security policy, it’s time to implement one.

        There was a letter where someone had linked their children’s devices to the company account. I think the responses there would help you.

    2. Where The Wind Blows*

      I’m not a manager, but I think that’s a really inappropriate use of a business account. What if some higher up goes on the account and sees the raunchy movies? And you’re right, it’s not fair to the other employees who don’t get to use Prime for free too.

      She can get free children’s content at the library or on YouTube, and she could just wait until she has $25 worth of purchases to get free shipping. You’re not taking away something vital if you tell her it needs to stop.

    3. Mid*

      I do wonder if she’s unaware that she’s not signed into her personal account, or if she’s intentionally using the business account. I had signed onto my parent’s account one time, to help them with something, and Amazon kept defaulting to their account, even after I signed out of it multiple times, and kept signing into my own.

      But, I’d pull her aside and let her know that the policy will be changing, and that the business Prime is no longer able to be used for personal business, and then send out a department-wide email after that, and change the password. There very well could be more people using it for personal things than just the one employee.

      1. valentine*

        I do wonder if she’s unaware that she’s not signed into her personal account
        She would’ve had to enter the new credit card and add the wish list.

    4. KoiFeeder*

      I don’t know whether the company considers it a big deal, but I recently got everyone locked out of the family Prime account for logging in on a different computer and messing up a verification, so there’s probably something to be said for minimizing access on personal devices.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Does your company have a policy about using a corporate credit card for personal expenses? This seems like the same kind of thing. Even if we pay it off, it is against our company policy to use our cards for non work charges except in a limited number of cases – routine use is definitely not allowed.

      My advice is to check your policies and issue a reminder in addition to changing the account credentials.

  86. Where The Wind Blows*

    Letter #5 made me think of my own question. I’m somewhat young, single, live alone, and am really just not interested in dating or getting married. Most people I’ve worked with never ask me about my relationship status, and if they find out inadvertently they just act normal. But two types of people are pretty horrible about it: Gossipy women (the kind who want to know how many kids I have and then act “concerned” that I’m not even married, that want to set me up with dudes, ask if I found anyone to date yet anytime someone else’s relationship is being scrutinized, etc.). And creepy guys (the ones who are super interested in where I live, how to get there, what my schedule is, and who make gross/baiting comments like, “your husband is so lucky to have someone like you cooking delicious meals for him”).

    Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with those specific kinds of people? I’ve never worn jewelry and am not good at lying, so I don’t want to wear and ring and make up lies.

    1. NaoNao*

      Gray rock. These people want drama or a reaction. Just act breezy and above it all and give bland newscaster sound bite responses–but with a slight edge. Turn it around on these women: make them agree by ending your statement with a “don’t you agree?” that would make them look terrible if they didn’t agree.

      “You have 5 kids!?!?! Where’s the daddy?”
      —“Oh, he and I parted ways and I’m thriving being single right now. I’m the best mom for my kids when I’m happy, don’t you agree?” or “He’s not around, and I’m finding that’s much better for me. Us moms have to take care of our kids, am i right?”

      “Your husband is so lucky to have you”
      –“Thanks for the compliment” or “That’s nice of you to say”

      As awful as the 1960’s were for anyone who wasn’t a WASP, the language and manners conventions WERE something that many of us could take a cue from as to how to effectively appear “nice” but witheringly firm and “no nonsense” at the same time. Using your best, most “Grade school teacher” voice, the right perky yet bland response has a way of shutting most people down.

      1. valentine*

        You: Let’s not get personal.
        Them: *get personal*’
        You: Don’t be gross. *change subject*

        I think “Don’t you agree?” will have them monologuing their disagreement and throwing around the word wedlock.

    2. blink14*

      Hi friend! I’m in the same boat – not interested in dating or getting married in the sense that I am not seeking either out actively. If someone came along and it worked out, sure, otherwise, I don’t want to waste my time on dating just for the sake of dating, I frankly think that’s stupid and way too many people are obsessed with the idea that you are “supposed” to be dating or get married.

      Here’s the thing – there’s absolutely nothing wrong with feeling this way. Busybody gossips will find anything to gossip about, no matter the topic. Creepy guys will be creepy no matter what. Stand your ground – you don’t need to lie, because even if you did, they’d find something else to gossip or be creepy about. If you feel the need to respond to gossipy women, say something like “Thanks for the concern, but I enjoy my free time and ability to be spontaneous” or “I’m so busy with my awesome life, I don’t have time to date!”.

      Creepy guys – you don’t have to be polite or engage with their comments. If it is someone at work, say “Bob, I’d like to only focus on work and keep my personal life separate”. If it’s someone you can afford to be rude to, just give them a dirty look, turn and walk away. This highlights a bigger issue – that it is ingrained in many cultures to be both degrading to women and for the women to accept that and be gracious. F that! If someone is being creepy to you, you do not need to engage with that behavior. Be rude if you have to. Turn the conversation and get out of it as quickly as possible.

    3. JessicaTate*

      For the gross/creepy guys, the asking about where you live, etc., is really creepy, inappropriate, and I would argue harassment if it’s ongoing. So, my advice is to make it clear that it’s not OK – and that has nothing to do with you being single. Like: Make a shocked face when they ask those questions, and say, “Whoa. That is really none of your business.” And if it keeps going… I’d chat with HR.

      For the “cooking dinner” comment, I’d probably look at him like he had three heads and say, “Uh… sure. Moving on.” If I could get away with being “smart”, I would probably say, “Hey, the 1950s called, they want their attitudes back.” But that would really depend on who it was.

      For the women who find it incomprehensible to meet a woman who is (currently or permanently) disinterested in marriage and/or children – I have dealt with this regularly (I am partnered, but not married; no kids, no interest in kids). My approach is a very clear, “I’m going to stop you right there. I’m good.” “Nope, I’m good.” To literally whatever they ask or say, I’m just very clear that I’m not interested / happy exactly as things are – but with as few words as possible, very matter-of-fact, and not justifying OR suggesting I am looking down on their life-choices. [As an aside: from the pushiest of them, I get a vibe that me rejecting the conventional choices they have made is somehow harming them. Ignore it. That is THEIR baggage.]

      Them: “You really don’t want kids?? But you’d be such a great mom.” Me: “Nope. Kids are great, but I don’t need or want one.” If they keep pushing: “Hey, it’s my life. I promise you, I’m good.” When I was single: “I like being independent. I’m not interested in settling down / pairing up [whatever euphemism you prefer].” And again when they are pushy, “Hey, it’s my life. I’m good.” I have had great success at shutting people down with confident, simple statements that focus just on 1) I’ve made my choices, and 2) I’m really happy with it.

      Hopefully that helps a little. Own your life-choices and satisfaction with confidence. And shut down / report the creepy dudes.

  87. Not Mike Pence, I swear*

    So, I have a really odd work problem, and I hope none of you will pile onto me for sexism or w/e once you hear the whole story.

    I‘m viscerally uncomfortable about meeting alone with women I don’t know. I know, this makes me sound like a jerk.

    But here’s the thing. I’m AFAB too. I was sexually assaulted as a kid by another girl, though significantly older than me. And I’ve recently been promoted, so some duties involve interviewing candidates and client meetings. Confidentiality is important, so these are often closed door meetings.

    I’m less effective at these because I’m so viscerally afraid! I know it doesn’t make sense, and I wouldn’t know how to explain this issue to my boss without coming across as discriminatory or as being a weak woman.

    Yes, I’m in therapy. Yes, I’m working on myself. But that doesn’t solve the immediate issue. Short of packing heat, how might I feel safer and thus do a better job?

    1. Mid*

      Could you talk to the people you’re meeting with on the phone before your meeting, so you “know” them? (But, I’d make sure you do this for all clients, not just women.) Or do some internet research (aka Google and look at their Facebook/LinkedIn/blog)? Would sitting closer to the door help? A room with windows? Glass walls? Having a table between you and the client? Taking self defense classes?

      I guess my advice is to look into PTSD coping strategies (not diagnosing here!) and see what feels like it would work, and then do it with all clients, regardless of their gender.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      We’ve talked in previous posts about things like meeting in rooms with glass walls or windows to the outside office, so that passersby or people who sit near the office can see what’s happening even if they can’t hear it. Is that possible in your office, and/or is it enough to help you feel less afraid? Alternatively, is it realistic for you to have a colleague in an interview with you? I’ve had plenty of interviews with more than one person at a time.

      I don’t think you sound like a jerk — you’re an assault survivor! But your current fears definitely sound like they’re a workplace problem, as well as a problem for you personally, and especially in the job interviews, I think it would be very hard to judge female candidates fairly or give them as good an interview if you’re spending the entire time afraid of them.

      Ultimately, I think you might have to ask your boss to let you step back on one-on-one job interviews and client meetings altogether until/unless you make some major progress in therapy. I wouldn’t bring gender into it at all — just that you’re uncomfortable in many one-on-one situations and it’s making you less effective in these specific duties.

      1. Sleve McDichael*

        +1 to interview panels. Having people interview their future colleagues/bosses can actually work really well if done right.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I think this fear is an understandable response to an assault and seems to be PTSD-like. That said it is becoming a workplace problem for you. Perhaps focus the therapy to developing coping strategies for this particular situation. There are other good suggestions above too.

    4. theguvnah*

      This sounds really hard and I’m sorry you’re going through it.

      That said, I have to implore you to not be the lone person interviewing people. I cant imagine right now you can fairly assess women candidates and that is not fair or okay. I like some of the other suggestions here; also, what does your therapist suggest in terms of coping skills?

      1. Avasarala*

        I agree. This sounds like something for your therapist. And I agree that I can’t imagine you are able to fairly assess female candidates. I’m also really concerned about your concern to make yourself safe “short of packing heat”–this is a really extreme and dangerous suggestion and I would be very concerned about any employee who felt so frightened of a business meeting with a client/candidate that they felt the need/desire to bring a weapon. This is even before we get into the reason being not the client/candidate’s behavior but their gender.

        I feel for you as a survivor but how would you feel if someone AMAB was in your situation? Would you feel safe as a client, and feel fairly judged as a candidate?

        I would encourage you to recuse yourself from these meetings and interviews until you are able to get a handle on this issue.

  88. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Client communication question.

    So, my firm provides alpaca grooming. We’re a subgroup to a larger firm that provides both alpaca and llama grooming, but we have limited access to the larger firm’s alpaca grooming records and zero access to the llama grooming records — as in, we can’t even see that the llamas exist. It’s very common for people, including clients, to get us confused with LargerFirm, as well as to be clients of both firms. Additionally, not a lot of people know the difference between alpacas and llamas.

    So! It’s not rare for me to receive inquiries from clients along the lines of “hey, can you tell me the last time my llama was groomed?” I can look and see that they’re our client with an alpaca we groom, but I can’t ever be 100% certain that they don’t have a llama that LargerFirm grooms.

    In these cases, I try to clarify that we provide alpaca grooming, not llama grooming, and they got their alpaca last groomed as of X date, but I’ve occasionally had clients get upset that I’m not talking about their llama, or who think that I don’t know the difference between alpacas and llamas, or who get offended that I tried to explain the difference between alpacas and llamas when they know it full well and just used the wrong word.

    Is there a better way to clarify in this situation? I’m sensitive to not wanting to treat clients as though they don’t know their own animals, but at the same time… we don’t groom your llama.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I might try something like “Do you mean your alpaca? I know people use the two terms interchangeably sometimes, but I wanted to confirm, because we do not groom llamas. Your alpaca was groomed on X date. If you do mean llama, is it possible you meant to contact LargerFirm instead?”

      But honestly, I don’t think there’s one response that’s going to suit all of your needs and offend no one.

    2. LQ*

      As a client it’s going to be so deeply annoying. I work with another agency that wants me to fully understand all the nuance of what each of their folks internally does and gets all attitudey if I don’t know their job. Well that’s not desktop, that’s service desk, that’s not service desk that’s weird subgroup of service desk, well that’s not us that’s desktop.

      I don’t care about your internal politics and that you can’t see the thing and that it’s not yours why are you even the same company? You people are the worst, I hate all of Groomers Inc. We are paying you money, you figure it out!

      Practically, don’t tell them “we don’t do alpacas, we only do llama’s here’s your llama information.” That’s not what they want, they are frustrated because Goomers Inc is refusing to answer the question they asked, you didn’t personally groom the alpaca, but Groomers Inc did. Tell them you’re sorry and give them the number for the alpaca folks. You can say, “I’m happy to help with llama’s but alpaca’s are at 867-5309.”

      The other thing is to try to get your clients, especially the ones who have lots of animals groomed at Grooming Inc a go to person. A good client manager – or whatever title – is really helpful in situations like this. I call the person and they figure it out internally and don’t make me deal with their internal politics mess. If your company doesn’t do it I’d really recommend proposing it. You may also have people who just call you/ask you because you’re the nice person at Grooming Inc who is helpful, which turns you into a defacto client manager because you’re helpful. (I love these people and cannot say enough good things about them when I find them, anyone who can help cut through another company or agencies red tape is worth my weight in gold.)

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Unfortunately, I’m not nearly at a level where I can do anything about the larger systemic problem. The confusion and internal mess are being worked on, but that doesn’t help me in the near term with the clients I speak with each day. All I can do is help people with their alpaca grooming accounts if they’re with us, and direct them to LargerFirm if we aren’t the ones who help them. It’s the sorting that’s difficult — figuring out whether people are using llama as a generic term to also mean alpaca, or if they’re actually looking for llama grooming services and they’re in the wrong place.

        1. PX*

          You need to provide more info when you respond about the situation. To me it sounds similar to when you inherit someone’s phone number and keep getting calls for the old person.

          So for me a script similar to what LQ suggested but add some more detail: we only deal with alpacas here but our bigger company Y does both llamas and alpacas. As I dont see a record of your alpaca/llama in our system, you will need to check with them.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Except that sometimes there *will* be a record of their alpaca, and the Countess doesn’t know if they’re actually asking about their alpaca, or a llama that she can’t see.

            2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

              DEMON LLAMA!!

              But yes, that’s the sum of it. Looking for the nicest ways to say “Hmm, do you really mean your llama, or this alpaca that’s in front of me? Because if you really mean llama, I’ll have to get you over to LargerFirm’s Llama Grooming segment. I’m so sorry for the inconvenience, let me give you their number for the future as well…”

              In my experience, 80% of the time they really do mean the alpaca that’s in front of me. And maybe they feel awkward that they used the wrong term (really, it’s okay!) or they feel annoyed that I implied that they didn’t know what type of fuzzy pet they’ve got, or they really did mean the llama and call me a moron for asking about an alpaca when that’s clearly not the same thing at all, or or or…

              1. Product Person*

                “My apologies for needing to confirm your request. Our company has a division that handle alpacas (this one you contacted) and another that handle llamas.

                I was able to verify in our alpaca system that your alpaca n. 3422 has been last groomed on 1/1. If that is not the information you need, and you are looking for the status of an alpaca being groomed by our Alpacas Office instead, please forward your request to alpacas@company.com, or let me know if you prefer I forward it myself.

                Unfortunately due to segregation of duties I can’t look up information in the llama system myself, but I’ll be happy to redirect your request as needed.”

  89. August*

    Any insight on how hard it is to break out of receptionist/secretary roles once you’re in them? I’m an analyst in state government, and just saw a new job posting for a receptionist. It would be with the office of a very high-ranking official (so I’d have more networking opportunities than I do in my current position), the salary is the same, and it seems like it would be much more exciting than my current role. My only worry is that the title change could look like a downgrade in rank to some people, even though I’m fairly certain a receptionist for this office could carry more clout than being Analyst #22. Thoughts?

    1. CheeryO*

      Ooh, I would be very careful about that. Are there any promotional opportunities in the analyst track? If there are, would you still be eligible for them if you left now (e.g., do you need to be an Analyst 1 to apply for Analyst 2, or is having X years of experience as an Analyst 1 sufficient)?

      I can only speak based on my own experience in state government, but generally there are fewer opportunities for advancement in administrative assistant-type roles. Also, you mention networking and general clout, but those kinds of things often take a backseat to longevity and other concrete qualifications in government hiring, so just be very careful that there’s an actual path to advancement if you switch. I know plenty of people at my agency who do great work and are well-liked, but they’re just totally stuck because there’s no defined path for them.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Unless this is an unusual receptionist position, I wouldn’t assume it has good networking opportunities.

      1. August*

        Yeah, I’m on the fence about whether that would be a benefit of the position — it would involve a ton of face time with officials (because travel coordination, greeting people for events, etc. is part of the job) but I suppose face time wouldn’t be very helpful if it’s of the “oh hey, look, there’s the secretary, let’s ask her” variety. I only thought it might be a step up because my current position involves absolutely no face time with anyone.

        1. WellRed*

          Face time with a receptionist is not what’s needed. Helpful FaceTime is with managers and higher ups who are in a position to give you opportunities.

          1. WellRed*

            To be clearer, even doing some of these tasks you list? They will likely still see you as the receptionist.

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              Yeah, greeting an important person as the receptionist isn’t really what I’d consider networking.

        2. CheeryO*

          What makes you think that you need face time to advance? Again, maybe this is just my experience, but government hiring is too rigid to have something like face time matter… either you have the qualifications for a higher-grade position or you don’t. Obviously there are nuances, but no one is going to be able to create a position for you just because they like you.

    3. Wandering*

      What about the receptionist role makes it sound exciting or interesting to you? Are you interested in a role where you will likely be tied to your desk and phone, able to step away only with coverage? Are you good with not having much of your own work to do? Are you good with constant interruption? Smart, thoughtful receptionists are a wonder to supervise, but they generally move on to admin assistant type roles. Would that kind of work be of interest to you? You assuredly have a lot more independence and freedom in managing your own work now than either reception or admin asst roles allow.

      Your Analyst title will carry more clout everywhere than a receptionist title. A lot of employers will see that on your resume as a sizeable demotion and wonder what went wrong. If you need a job and have few options, go for it, but otherwise I’d caution against it.

      If that reception job pays what you make now, what else might be available there that would be a better fit for you? I have a friend who wanted to change industries and took an admin asst job because it sounded so interesting. She lasted 3 months, she was bored out of her mind. She saw the work as important to the organization, she was decidedly the wrong person to do it. It was harder to get back to where she had been than she’d expected, and that was after only 3 months.

      What else might you like to do, if you’re looking at roles like this as options? Good luck.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      And in answer to your question about breaking out of that role… it can be very difficult. I’ve mentioned this before, but Mr. Shackelford was a graduate assistant in a campus department. After he graduated, he got a job as a coordinator in that department. People still expected him to make their copies. Some of them never did see him as anything other than their GA, even when he had the same job title they did.

    5. Filosofickle*

      It seems like somewhere in the past, in a Mad Men world, being an admin/receptionist was sometimes a stepping stone job. And when I started out 25 years ago, I heard advice to take jobs doing anything — picking up phones, emptying trash — as a way in. In my experience, it rarely works out. (The exception being ad agencies — I’ve met a couple of receptionists who were promoted to design or account positions. That’s sometimes intention in agencies.) Often, once people see you as a support person, they stop seeing you any other way. Even in higher-level professional positions, if you become perceived as Office Mom / note taker / party planner, perception of your more strategic abilities can stall.

    6. Pennalynn Lott*

      I took a job as an executive assistant when I moved back to my home town. I wanted to be in IT. The company was a software company, so I thought I’d be able to eventually move to something like IT Support.

      All the nopes.

      The nope was so hard that, even after I quit and the company was acquired and the exec I worked for was fired and the remaining Sr VPs called me to ask if I could come work for them again and I was excited and said, “Sure! What IT positions do you have open?” and they said, “Whut? We want you to be our admin!!”

      The only way I got out of admin work was by having a friend at a tech company who convinced his boss that (a) I was super smart and had a passion for tech, and (b) I’d be cheaper than hiring someone who had been working in IT all along.

    7. CaseyDaw*

      Don’t do it. You’ll get stuck. I fought for years to get out of the secretary/assistant world… That title sticks hard.

    8. M*

      All the people talking about getting pigeonholed are 1000% right, but also if they’re overpaying by that much for the role, they’re expecting someone with significant skill and experience in the role, and they’re paying to get it – particularly in government, where salaries need justifications. Zero chance someone whose resume screams “I want a foot in the door and see this role as a stepping stone!” is going to get an interview. Don’t waste your time.

  90. LogicalOne*

    Hi everyone TGIF! I have a question for those who are hiring managers or hire staff for your place of employment.

    I have a handful of candidates that I would like to interview for an open position at my company. They applied and they were chosen to be interviewed. My dilemma is who to call first or who to offer the first pick at an interview slot. Do any of you have a system of going about this? Do you call the candidate who applied the earliest first? Do you randomly call someone from the list and let them pick first before the others? I am a little worried that if we call someone who would fit perfectly with our culture will be called last and then they will not be able to come in because the others have taken a time they wanted. Is this all a game of chance when hiring? I guess if we really wanted to interview this person, then we as an employer will rearrange our own schedule to interview them….but should we do that as well? Are we giving the interviewer unnecessary power from the get-go?

    Any help would be appreciated. Have a wonderful weekend!!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      So if you call the last candidate, and none of the remaining time slots work for them, your default is to say “sorry, we’re not going to interview you?” Because *that* is your problem.

      1. LogicalOne*

        That’s another option as well. We have had to turn down interviewees in the past because they couldn’t come in at the time slot we had open. If a candidate really wants the job then they will rearrange their schedule or take time off from their other job in order to come in. I completely forgot about that aspect…if they want the job they will make it a priority to come in for an interview. Thanks for your advice!!

        1. SomebodyElse*

          So you would lose out on an otherwise good candidate because they couldn’t make your time slot work?

          That’s a really odd way of hiring.
          “Wow… look at this candidate. Has all of the experience we’re looking for, knows the 12 long dead applications we still use, and also brings bonus skills that we didn’t know we needed… too bad they couldn’t make that Tuesday interview work… I guess they didn’t really want the job after all.” tears up resume and picks up the next one “I guess this guy will do”

          Honestly, you really should rethink this approach to hiring.

        2. MommyShark*

          Why wouldn’t you want to reasonably accommodate a candidate’s schedule? If they meet your criteria, wouldn’t you want to give them a shot rather than expect they can drop everything and potentially cause issues with their current employer to interview during the only option you gave them?
          If you told me there is only one time you will interview me and if that doesn’t work I won’t get an interview, I’d say thanks, but no thanks. Who would want to work in that environment?

        3. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Well, hold on a minute– you’re being really inflexible here! Why are your time slots set in stone? Yes, if applicants want the job they will come in… but you’re not accounting for vacations, work travel, meetings they can’t change, etc. If you tell someone you can only do between 12 and 4 on Tuesday and they have meetings but can come in at 4pm, you would reject them out of hand? That’s not very helpful for your business and it leaves a bad impression of you as an employer.

          I’ll put it this way: I was emailed last week about a phone screen. I was on vacation, so I told the interviewer that and asked for a time slot when I returned– I didn’t feel right about interviewing from my vacation rather than from the comfort of my home office, though I didn’t tell her that, just said I was traveling and could we do Wednesday instead. She had absolutely no problem accommodating that. If she had said no, I would have accepted that, but it would have seemed really weird.

          This is not about giving an interviewee too much power or whatever. This is about being reasonably flexible in order to get the right person into the job you want to fill.

        4. Rusty Shackelford*

          You are actually taking the opposite of my advice. I didn’t say a good candidate will rearrange their schedule. I think you are being too rigid if you will not adjust your own schedules for a promising candidate.

        5. Fikly*

          If I’m looking at whether I want to work for a company, and I’m being told you must come in for an interview at this specific time (or maybe you’re being generous and offering two options!) that tells a whole bunch about how much I do not want to work for you.

          Beyond being a bad way to treat people (which I suspect you do not care about/believe), it’s costing you the highly qualified candidates you really want. Because those candidates that stand out? They have other options, with companies that treat their applicants better.

        6. BRR*

          Ack! I think you misread it (I did the first time). Rusty was asking if this is what you do. And the your, I think they meant you, not the candidate. Please please please please dont be this inflexible.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t do slots; I have blocks of availability and an end date, all created with the understanding that we’re trying to mesh two full schedules together. If a candidate is worth being a finalist, they’re worth my arranging a time for. It sounds like you’re making interview scheduling into a merit test and I think that risks putting off high-value candidates.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Oh LogicalOne, you are very illogical. Don’t offer only 5 slots for 5 interviews and then as you work your way through the 5 applicants reduce the number of available slots.

      Do what fposte says below.

      Also If a candidate really wants the job then they will rearrange their schedule or take time off from their other job in order to come in. I completely forgot about that aspect…if they want the job they will make it a priority to come in for an interview. This is terrible. You sounds like an awful company to interview with.

        1. Autumnheart*

          No, because how could anyone get hired under that system? “Sorry, we had a job fair and found 25 great candidates, but everyone was busy between 2-3pm every other Tuesday. Guess we won’t grow as a company after all!”

    4. Kathenus*

      When I’m hiring I email the interview candidates the time frame I’m looking to set up interviews and ask them to send me their availability during that period. For example, we’re looking to conduct interviews over the next two weeks on Tuesdays and Thursdays – please send me your availability on those days. Then I play jigsaw puzzle with slots and peoples’ availability, and send each person a meeting notice for the slot that worked for both them and us.

    5. Stornry*

      I send them all a bcc email and ask them to call me to select a time slot; that way they get what works for them. When appropriate, I include in the email additional information on the position(s) like how many jobs we are interviewing for and which branches (or metro vs. rural) have vacancies. If they can’t make any of my time-slots, I try to work out something — the only time it doesn’t work is when my panel just can’t stretch to fit their availability.

  91. Greywacke Jones*

    How do companies that have a billable hours system generally account for pumping at work? I am returning from maternity leave soon, and am finding my company doesn’t have a clear policy. I am a salaried employee so in theory the breaks should be paid. However, I have to submit a timesheet accounting for 8 hours of work a day, and a certain percentage of my time has to be billable to clients. This means it’s not really in my best interest to take those breaks as overhead when it will make it significantly harder to meet my billable goals. 

    I’ve been at my company for four years, and several people had babies right around when I started, but no one since then. None of them work here anymore, and the company as a whole has undergone a lot of changes since then in terms of structure, policy, etc. (These changes have been in my opinion largely positive and overdue, as we had a lot of growth but were still operating under a small company mindset). So, I’m not sure how it was done in the past, and it would probably be different now anyways. When I spoke to our HR person, she was definitely supportive but clearly no one has thought through the billing issue, so I’m curious how other companies have handled it. 

    1. Anon for this*

      I generally read reports, etc. while pumping. Not knowing the nature of your work, I don’t know if this would work for you, but if you’ve got things you need to read anyway, this is a good time to do it.

      1. valentine*

        Eight hours of work? Are salaried people not entitled to any breaks?

        Approach your manager about reducing your burden to seven hours of work while you’re pumping. You deserve to have that dedicated, uninterrupted time.

  92. moneypenny*

    I don’t think I’m used to hand-holding in previous positions but my boss, who is remote but for two days a week, is so removed that here I am seven months into a job I thought I’d love feeling like I have no guidance. I work with clients so the works changes all the time and that keeps things interesting but I rarely work with my team, all that means I feel pretty singular there (not to mention it was an acquisition and everyone knows each other for years, I am the only new person along with my boss). It would be an amazing company to retire with so I want to stay on but I feel nothing for the company. I love the work, but the company experience has been very lackluster. How often do people stay put in spite of things like this, just to have a solid cushion to finish a worklife with? I’m in my mid-40s but no one knows that, so retirement isn’t THAT far away but I’m sick of job hopping.

  93. Bunny Girl*

    I want to thank the people here for the encouragement recently. I posted here about a month ago because I work in a really toxic, soul crushing environment that I’m a little stuck in, and I had asked if other people had sought out therapy for work situations like this. Several people suggested I give it a try.

    I did end up matching with a therapist on BetterHelp and have been talking to her recently and it’s been a really positive experience. It’s a little too expensive for me to keep up with long term, but I’ve gotten great advice and things to work on after my subscription ends. I also started taking cbd for my anxiety and that’s helped a lot too. While things at work aren’t going any better, I feel I’m reacting to them a lot better and managing myself differently so I don’t get so worked up. It was also nice to be able to tell her about my work life and hear that I wasn’t being dramatic, that this is a really shitty place to work.

    So if anyone else is struggling with work, I encourage you to reach out and get help. Even though a lot of advice I got should have been common sense for me, it’s easy to lose sight when you work with a bunch of truly terrible people and get drug down to their level when you are working with them. Happy Friday everyone!

  94. What to do?*

    How would folks handle this?

    My mom was recently diagnosed with stage iv breast cancer. Her treatment means that she has good days and bad days, but they’re hard to predict. I’m approved for intermittent FMLA to take care of her.

    When she’s feeling good, she picks our kiddo up from school on Wed. and Fri. Today, she’s having a bad day and can’t do pick up. My job is flexible (to an extent) and I can do pick up today (and I realize that this isn’t covered under FMLA since I’m not leaving to take care of her). However, I realize this is disruptive to my coworkers incase something comes up last minute.

    Would you prefer your employee work out consistent childcare, or would you be ok with this? Personally, I’d prefer to do this myself, because when she’s feeling good, she enjoys spending “Nana” time with her grandchild and it’s good for her to get out of the house (my opinion). But I want to be sensitive, given that there are times where I will have to be out to help her and depending on her health, I won’t get a lot of advance notice for those times either.

    1. Where The Wind Blows*

      If I was your coworker, I would just want you to do whatever worked best for you. I understand that family needs to take priority over work sometimes.

      Can you bring your laptop home? Do your coworkers have your phone number? As long as you can handle “emergencies” away from work it should be okay, right?

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Can you do any work from home? That way, picking up the kid doesn’t mean you’re completely gone, it’s just a pause.

      My co-worker was the primary caregiver for her mother throughout her cancer treatment. My co-worker also has two young kids. She had to leave often for appointments and treatments (her mother couldn’t drive and my co-worker accompanied her to chemo), but because her team knew she would handle anything as soon as she could, her circumstances generated more sympathy than frustration.

      If you have a job where you must be there to do your work, then consider getting more of a consistent schedule or hiring someone temporary to do backup. That might help you and your mom a lot so neither of you has to worry about it. If your kid is old enough to hang out without needing someone to do more hands-on care, maybe just try to get someone to drive him to Grandma’s house on her days?

    3. What to do?*

      Thank you guys for your thoughts!

      I do have a laptop and can (in theory!) work from home/tutoring/dance studio, etc. It may work out that I see if I can block out Wed. and Friday afternoons on my schedule and if she’s feeling good, I stay (and get meeting-free work time!) and if she’s not, then I can leave and be available by phone/internet.

    4. Autumnheart*

      If you were my coworker, I would completely understand why “FMLA taking care of mom” and “have to pick up kid” are separate responsibilities. That being said, though, it might not hurt to work out consistent childcare anyway, in case your mom gets to a point where she can’t do it for the foreseeable future.

      1. valentine*

        I would have a backup and secondary backup, or just hire someone to do pickup and either drop them off with her or babysit until someone else arrives home.

  95. CheeryO*

    Minor vent, but I can’t believe that unisex clothing is still a thing in 2020. I do a decent amount of fieldwork for my job, and I live in a place with cold winters. I’ve made do with layers and a thin work-issued jacket for the last five years, but we had extra money in the budget this year, so we ordered some actual winter coats. WELL, comes to find out that the only real winter coat that we could choose from (this is state government, so ordering is weird) was a “unisex” coat. There was also a women’s coat, but it wasn’t rated as warm as the unisex one.

    I told the person who was organizing the order that I really need a women’s coat, and I just got some mansplaining about how the unisex small will be fine, it’s much warmer, blah blah blahhhh. The thing finally came in, and it’s absolutely ridiculous and totally unwearable. The arms are so stiff and wide that I accidentally ran into a wall while wearing it because I didn’t know where the coat ended. My boss saw me in it and just laughed. I’m so annoyed that we wasted money on it (I could have taken that hundred bucks and gone to a training or conference instead), and that I tried to advocate for myself and failed. Ugh.

    1. Cinnamon*

      We order mens uniforms for tshirts and jackets and I’ve definitely has the bad stiff jacket issue! We ordered women’s one year and the sizing was WAY off. The small looked like it was for a 5 year old and didn’t match the size chart at all so we went back to men’s. So overall uniform clothing sucks!!

      1. valentine*

        You didn’t fail. You stopped pushing back too soon. Give it another go. Tell them to Google fabric cuts.

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      I’m sorry you have a useless coat. How very frustrating! Will they exchange it for the less warm women’s coat?

      As someone who orders jackets and coats for my team, women’s sizing is very inconsistent, even within the same brand. Unisex sizing, which, let’s face it, is actually men’s sizing, is pretty consistent across brands. It usually takes me at least a day or two to find an acceptable jacket or coat that comes in both men’s and women’s sizes that match standard sizing. I can see someone who doesn’t want to make an effort skipping that amount of work and insisting the unisex size would be fine, unfortunately.

    4. M*

      The worst, the absolute worst, are the companies that order children’s sizing for women’s clothing.

      A child’s tshirt is sized to be shorter in proportion to its width, because children, regardless of weight, are usually shorter.

      A women’s tshirt is sized to be longer in proportion to its width, with more stretch, because women, in general, have more curves between shoulder and hip that the tshirt needs to navigate, rather than merely falling straight.

      Why? Just why? *How* is this still a thing actual organisations do?

  96. ThatOneTime InBandCamp*

    Does anyone have any scripts for salary negotiations that have worked for them?

    1) I’m looking for ways to initiate a negotiation to start with more vacation time after I have an offer (and what possible alternatives I can ask about — e.g. can I ask to start with a week in the bank, can I ask to accumulate the next level’s vacation (4-7 years) instead of my current level (1-3 years)).

    2) Also looking for good strategy around asking salary questions if they are hiring 2 of my role (not sure if I should ask the other person what they were offered, or ask the negotiator or just ignore the fact that there are two of us and try to get as much as possible by myself)

    3) Other tips on things I might have forgotten to negotiate for? Signing bonus availability, etc.?

    thank you

  97. Damn it, Hardison!*

    To-do list experts, I need your help!

    Any tips to making my enormous to-do list more executable? It’s running into multiple pages now, just for the items that need to be done in the next couple of weeks. Right now it’s a running list with no organization, and even looking at is overwhelming. I’m looking for suggestions for how to make a more effective to-do list.

    In other news, I applied to a job this week, using all of the good advice I’ve gleaned from Ask A Manager. My cover letter was truly a thing of wonder, if I do say so myself. I need to move on from my current position, as it is clear that we are never going to get the resources to do everything we are expected to do and the expectations from leadership are also not going to change.

    1. Susan K*

      I use an app called Todoist and I would pretty much be lost without it. It allows you to organize your list by due date, by project/subject, and by priority. It also allows you to set up recurring tasks (e.g., “Send the TPS report” every Monday) and make subtasks on items (e.g., you can make a task of “Complete TPS report” with subtasks of “Print TPS report,” “Fill out TPS cover sheet,” and “Submit TPS report with cover sheet”). You can synchronize your list on multiple devices including desktop computer.

      I use the free version, BTW. There is a premium version but I think the subscription price is outrageous.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      I use the Urgent/Important matrix. You can google for more info, but the gist of it is that there are 4 categories:

      Important/ Urgent (some meetings, deadlines, crises)
      Important/ Not Urgent (planning, career development)
      Urgent/ Not Important (phone calls, interruptions)
      Not Urgent/ Not Important (busy work, fyi emails)

      Once I have my big giant list, I break it down into the four categories above, and plan it out from there. I also highlight what must be done today, what must be done this week, etc. (Which reminds me, I need to make a phone call!)

    3. Jedi Squirrel*

      Make a copy. (Because, you know…)

      Cut it up so that each task is on a separate piece of paper.

      Sort it out into piles:

      – Must be done by the end of today
      – Must be done by the end of tomorrow
      – Must be done by the end of this week
      – Must be done by the end of next week
      – Meh, whenever

      And then tackle the first pile and only the first pile, until it is done.

      You can also sort them this way:

      – High priority
      – Medium priority
      – Low priority

      Set the low priority ones aside, mix the other two piles together, and sort them into the same three piles. Keep doing this, setting the low priority pile aside, until you have a high priority pile of tasks that you can reasonably get done in whatever your time frame is: an hour, an afternoon, a day.

    4. JessicaTate*

      I organize mine in a Word doc, with each task organized by project (specific tasks are under a header of Project X, Project Y, General Ops, etc.). At the start of each week, I delete things that got done (and add new), then reorganize the projects (with tasks) into the order that are roughly from the biggest fires for the week to “can mostly ignore this until next week.” I print out that list as a hard copy on my desk, because that is more immediate to me – and I can scrawl down the new things that pop up and aren’t on there.

      Admittedly, it’s still long and a bit overwhelming, so sometimes I will start a day with a post-it note on top of the printed long list, where I list out the 3 or 4 major things that need to happen today / first today, to give myself additional focus. It is arguably redundant, but it has been very effective in making me feel less overwhelmed and more focused (without losing the memory aide of the long list).

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you have it on paper or a spreadsheet/app kind of layout?

      I do a spreadsheet with different sections. I have “daily to do”, weekly and monthly to-dos. Then an annual one. Then I have another tab for running projects.

      I have seen people use a day book format as well, so it’s broken down into daily chunks instead of a huge overview, that is less daunting lots of time!

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        I do this. I have A daily/weekly/monthly list. And either end of the day before or first thing in the morning, I plan out my daily for that coming day. I put them in priority order, and anything that didn’t get done from the daily list the day before gets shuffled to the top. If I’m really stuck on the list, and I can’t get that first item or 2 tackled, I’ll take 20 minutes – 1 hour and invert the list to see if I can get traction on some low hanging fruit.

    6. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Thank you, everyone! So many good ideas. I’m going to try them out over the next few weeks and see what works best for me. First step: gather up all of my notes, post-its, random scraps of papers and what not, and make a master list. And, doing that will cross on thing off my list, so, progress!

  98. W2, taxes, yikes follow up*

    Follow up from last week (US taxes):

    Friend’s Husband (FH) did in fact receive a W2 from his boss (FHBoss) with appropriate withholding – but it was for two months. FHBoss also sent a 1099 for the remainder of the year, having made FH a contractor (with no info about this to FH til the arrival of the 1099) AND paying him the same amount as the checks received under the W2 but without having done any withholding on those checks. So a big paycut AND tax due. Their tax person says there’s nothing to be done as FHBoss submitted the W2 and 1099. NB: the job did not meet the requirements for contractor status.

    Anything that you folks think they should be asking or doing as they talk with the IRS and prepare their taxes? They are not interested in pursuing this legally, but they’d like some help in presenting the case for some leniency in payment plans or some such, and if there is anything else they should do.

    Many thanks

    1. irene adler*

      Might be ready to cite a monthly figure FH can pay to IRS. That would be a figure that fits within the budget.

      Sometimes the IRS takes kindly to folks who recognize they have to pay them and show that they are cooperative. So citing a figure up front may just give them reason to accept this figure and that will be that.

      FYI: a friend of mine owed the IRS and had a payment plan set up with them. He paid them faithfully for several years. Then one day he lost his job. He reached out to IRS, explained the situation. They told him he didn’t have to resume the monthly payments until he found a new job. It took a long time -years-to find a new job. They never once hassled him.

    2. That would be a good band name*

      It’s important to remember the late filing penalty is higher than the late payment penalty so they need to be sure to file on time, even if they can’t submit payment when they file.

      And I would probably get a second opinion from a CPA. Especially if the first tax person they consulted is from one of the ones that tend to “pop up” at tax time (H&R Block, Hewlitt Jackson, etc), but I think I’d check with someone else regardless.

      I’m also wondering about the cut in pay without notice. That’s worth a DOL complaint, although that might be more into the “legal” aspect than they want to go.

      1. Natalie*

        It’s important to remember the late filing penalty is higher than the late payment penalty so they need to be sure to file on time, even if they can’t submit payment when they file.

        This is technically correct, but functionally incorrect as the late filing penalty is a percentage of the taxes owed. If you do not owe, the late filing penalty is zero. And you can file for an automatic filing extension, but it *does not* extend the time you have to pay any taxes owed.

        1. That would be a good band name*

          True, but I’m having a hard time imaging that they owe zero taxes since nothing was held for 10 months. If they can make an estimated payment, that’s great. If they can’t can’t, then at least they can avoid the 5% late filing penalty any only get hit with the 0.5% late payment penalty.

          1. Natalie*

            They can avoid the late filing penalty by filing an extension, and the late payment penalty doesn’t kick in until they actually file their return and don’t pay within 21 days. What is of immediate concern is the penalty for failure to make appropriate estimated payments if they owe over $1000 and don’t qualify for any of the exceptions.

            1. W2, taxes, yikes*

              Will filing the form 8919 you mention below explain why they didn’t make estimated payments, or are they likely to be penalized anyway?

              Thanks much

              1. Natalie*

                That I can’t tell you for sure – it’s not one of the standard exceptions, but that doesn’t mean the IRS wouldn’t take it into account if they decided the employer’s actions were deliberately improper (rather than just negligent).

                The most important thing to know about the IRS is that they live and die on procedure. So, what I would do is:
                1) file an extension right away. It literally never hurts, they can always file by the normal deadline anyway. This extends the window before a “failure to file” penalty would apply.
                2) fill out their return, including form 8919 and see how much they actually have to pay in, but don’t file the return yet. That starts the clock on paying their final tax bill or a “failure to pay” penalty on top of an under withholding penalty.
                3) if the amount they will owe (total unpaid tax, not their total tax liability) is less than $1000, file at whatever point between now and the extended deadline when they can pay the bill in full within 21 days of filing. They then shouldn’t owe any penalties.
                4) if the amount owed is more than $1000, spend the next two months doing what they can do to make enough of an estimated payment to get the bill below $1000, then go back to step 3.
                5) make sure they get the return filed by the extension deadline, even if it turns out they’ll need a payment plan
                6) if they do need a payment plan, it will be cheaper and easier the less they owe and/or the more they can pay up front.

                Probably goes without saying but they should keep every scrap of paper related to this for a long time.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      FML…

      They’re not going to fight it legally?

      Don’t bother going to the DOL then, they won’t be much help when you write off that option in a lot of cases. It will depend on the DOL in your state though of course.

      They have to pay the taxes with what they’re given as noted above. The IRS doesn’t give you extension on payments, so interest and fees do still compile. Payment plans will include interest and penalties as well. So what you can do is pay what you can, then ask for a plan after they send you a bill for the rest [including all their fees and interest at the time]. The IRS isn’t scary but it isn’t in the business of being lenient when it comes to their money owed.

      You can always get a payment plan if it’s under like 50k, not sure the exact threshold but it’s very high. But again, it’s going to cost low interest and a plan fee. It’s really reasonable in my opinion [I did a plan for under 5k and it was like a $40 fee on top of a failure to pay complete bill fee of like another $40 plus interest rates as long as it sat unpaid, I probably paid like $200 total extra for that whole thing in the end]. So they shouldn’t worry about that in general, there’s no begging and pleading involved and you can do that personally without paying anyone to help out.

      He works for a scoundrel and a thief it sounds like to me, please say he’s looking for a new job…

      1. W2, taxes, yikes follow up*

        Scoundrel and thief is about right. Guy is still mad that FH won’t come to work when he’s not being paid. FH’s already getting interviews, and he’s looking for larger organizations this time to reduce likelihood of running into scoundrels.

        They know they have to pay the taxes on it but they rightly feel robbed and aren’t prepared to pay it all up front, especially as the paychecks stopped entirely with the turn of the year, hence my question.

        Many thanks

        1. valentine*

          It’s worth reporting the wage theft and fraud.

          I hope he’ll insist on proper pay stubs going forward.

    4. Natalie*

      Their tax person is incorrect. And, incidentally, providing the same person a W2 and a 1099 in the same year is an enormous red flag for misclassification.

      They want to fill out Form 8919 (Uncollected Social Security and
      Medicare Tax on Wages) – note reason H is ” I received a Form W-2 and a Form 1099-MISC from this firm for 2019. The amount on Form 1099-MISC should have
      been included as wages on Form W-2.” They shouldn’t need to fill out a substitute W2 or misclassification form, in this case the 8919 should cover the issue.

      1. Natalie*

        Oh, and they don’t need to set up a payment plan until April, so they have plenty of time to actually do their taxes so they know what kind of dollar figure they’re looking at. If it happens to be low enough that they can get it together before 4/15 they won’t need to muck around with payment plans.

    5. BRR*

      I know you said they’re not interested in pursuing this legally, but I imagine it would be super easy to report the misclassification Because the boss issued both a w-2 and 1099 for the same job (if he should be w-2 that is).

  99. Babies? No thanks*

    How do you respond politely when coworkers assume you want kids? I’ve tried breezily changing the subject, but I’m curious if others have experienced this same phenomenon, and how to navigate it without sounding like a baby-hater. I’m also not a baby-hater — I just work with a bunch of women who assume I’ll be settling down and getting pregnant someday.

    I work with a lot of women in their mid-20s to mid-30s, who are either pregnant, just had a baby, or have toddlers. Our company is very supportive of families (which I think is great!), and small talk with my coworkers usually centers around how their kids are doing or how their pregnancies are going. People also bring in their newborns to the office to show them off, and we inevitably end up passing the baby around and talking about baby stuff. This happens a few times a year, but the baby-centric conversations are constant.

    I like babies, and the chitchat and visits don’t bother me, but almost every time it happens, my female coworkers will joke about, “when YOU have a baby,” referring to me. No one has ever asked me about it – it’s just a given that I WILL have a baby at some point. To be clear, I’m a 29-year-old woman. I’m also pretty sure I don’t want kids, ever. Nothing against babies or families, I just know it’s not for me.

    Every time it happens, I’ve just smiled and laughed, or tried to change the subject, but it feels disingenuous. It also feels kind of harsh to respond with, “actually, I don’t plan on having kids.” Especially since in the moment, these are usually just tossed-off comments. But still, it bugs me — when Jan is telling us a story about being up until 4 am with her newborn, and then looks at me and says, “See, OP? Just another lovely facet of motherhood you’ll have to deal with someday!” sometimes I don’t feel like playing along.

    Has anyone else had similar workplace conversations? How did you handle them? Or is this just one of those things where I should jut suck it up and play along for the sake of fitting in?

    Jan is a fake name, by the way.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I’m the same age and I get these comments a lot. Especially after I got a puppy. Lots of “Oh well it’s just practice for having a baby!” Which I find mildly offensive but whatever. I just respond in a breezy way and normally make a joke of it. Like I normally respond with “Oh no babies for me! I can’t put them in a crate when I go to work.” Or “No I think I’ll just stick with dogs! I don’t want to send anyone to college.” If that doesn’t get it I normally get a little more up front because I don’t like the stereotype of Everyone Woman Wants Kids! I actually had a medically necessary hysterectomy at age 20 (which I was so happy about!) and if someone pushes the subject I say “Oh having kids isn’t for me. I’m actually sterile and pretty happy about it!”

      1. Stornry*

        Along those same lines, my response has always been “Dogs are easier. If they misbehave, you just pick ’em up by the scruff of the neck and toss ’em outside. Can’t do that with kids.”

        1. valentine*

          First offense: “No, thanks.”
          Second and future offenses, escalating in tone while lowering your voice: “Not if I can help it.”

          I think this would work on the whole “You’ll change your mind!” nonsense.

          Place sounds like a nightmare. You’d think they’d want a rest from the baby-centered talk.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      “Do you have kids”
      “Nope, just the cats”
      “Are you planning any kids”
      “Cats!”
      “Do you want kids?”
      “Can barely raise the CATs”

      Truthfully, it’s super rare for anyone to go past the first cat reference. I think it’s only been once or twice.

    3. StellaBella*

      You can say once, politely, “I child free by choice. In today’s day and age we have lots of choices including one not to have kids.”

    4. AndersonDarling*

      “My husband and I were really lucky to find each other. Neither of us want to have children.”
      I’ve never had any push back, but maybe people get to know me and they think, “Wow, good thing she doesn’t want to be a parent!”
      I’ve actually had two people admit that they wish they could go back and not have children!

    5. Holy Moley*

      I just had an aggressive conversation with a coworker who was aghast that I don’t want kids. So I 100% get where you are coming from. I honestly feel like I have to defend myself even though its none of their business. Ive tried a lot of things but I usually say “I can’t for medical reasons” and that 99% of the time stops the conversation. You will inevitably get follow-on questions about adopting or fostering. To which my response is “Wow, thats personal.” and then I give them a look.

      It sucks, Its hard. Its gonna happen probably forever… every new job I get asked if I have kids and why not. I want a sign that says “none of your business” but I cant be alienating like that. Just be breezy and dismiss the topic as quick as you can and change the topic. I usually ask them something in return to get them talking about something else “Hey did you watch the Masked Singer this week?”

    6. san junipero*

      With people I didn’t know well, or genuine one-off comments, I would just shrug it off as well. With coworkers I was actually getting to know, or in longer conversations, I would openly say, “I’m not planning on having kids.” It doesn’t have to be harsh unless you say it harshly! Granted, it was usually met with surprise (my office was FULL of moms), but few people actually pushed back on it. When they did, I’d just keep it light and polite and say, “No, I love kids, but it’s not for me.”

      If you refuse to let it be a big deal, it probably won’t be.

    7. Box of Kittens*

      I used to get this, too, but I did respond with a cheery, “oh, I don’t want them.” I don’t think it would be harsh to add that in the moment, especially since it bothers you. In my situation people eventually realized I don’t want them and those comments stopped. When I have said that and people start asking “but whyyy?” I use the “they’re just not for me/I’ll stick to my cats” excuse and move on. For your coworkers who do that a lot it might be worth a longer comment next time it happens, but my experience has been that people get it once you’ve stated your position a few times. Good luck!

    8. Environmental Compliance*

      Oof. I get you. I’m 28 and not only do not want kids, cannot have kids. A lot of people like to make a lot of assumptions about the state of my uterus.

      For the most part, when I get the “ooooh look what you get to look forward toooooo”, I tend to raise my eyebrows, awkward smile, with no comment. Usually that halts those weird jokey statements. However, I have had people really push the issue, who then get the “oh, I actually can’t have kids! what about [other topic]?” in a matter of fact tone.

      For those who ask about how many kids I have, I usually respond with “nah, one horse and two birds is plenty for me”, and it works.

      Shoutout to the one woman who asked me how many kids I had, and when I responded with the above, audibly gasped and asked how many kids my husband had. ????

    9. Sleve McDichael*

      If you’re worried about sounding like a baby-hater, my go-to script is this: ‘I like other people’s kids! I like to play with them, and when they start to poop or cry I just hand them back! It’s the best of both worlds.’ Said with the right degree of enthusiasm and a laugh, it can make people feel validated about their choice to have children (because they can theoretically offer you the ‘blessing’ of playtime) and also makes it clear that parenting with all its ups and downs is not for you. I’ve had to use this one multiple times on some people but it always stops them in the moment.

    10. A Frayed Knot*

      “When I got married, my mom told me to start with a plant. When I was able to care for a plant, I could get a pet. When I was sure the pet was thriving, I could think about children. (Pause.) All my plants died.” Generally gets a chuckle and the conversation moves on.

      And mom swears she never said this to me.

  100. Aurélia*

    I feel like I’m going to cry during my performance review. As a GS, I expect my third “Outstanding” appraisal, with absolutely nothing to show for it. No awards. No QSI. Some days I feel appreciated, I love my manager and she loves me, but my internal customers absolutely take me for granted, and I’ve set some precedents that are a net positive for everyone in my bureau except me (oh! I had that problem too, you should talk to Aurélia about it! She’ll turn it around really quickly too! Don’t bother reaching out to budget.). My customers are so spoiled that when I’m OOO, from a half-day to a week, something blows up or someone puts up something snarky on Slack that our team box is unmonitored/no one is in the office
    on my team/etc.
    Putting my EER input together, I started tearing-up looking at all of the WAR accomplishments and email accolades from program directors. The handful of requests I’ve made (like a share point we could direct customers to with the agreed-upon procedure and document templates) are raved about, and it’s been 2+ years and guess how much movement there has been? Zero. I’ve had documents
    drafted just about as long. The two projects I was excited about championing and having some more autonomy? Apparently that’s my team lead’s responsibility and manager wants to focus more on getting back to doing what’s on our PDs.
    It’s not my Manager’s fault, but I was “pinch-hitting” on a handful of contracts
    as the end-date was supposed to be November, and then we’d talk about me doing more quality assurance, fix the underlying problem issues that I do anyway. And it’s February and not only am I still pinch-hitting, they keep using me on new contracts, despite the rest of my team being certified. Meanwhile our Division Cheif has been OOO handling one personal or medical horror after the other, and my Branch Cheif/Manager has been acting. I’ve applied for three jobs at outside departments, manager and I have talked a bit about how much happier I’d probably be at a DOD agency, but haven’t gotten any call-backs and I know she doesn’t want to lose me, but I’m miserable. I feel so whiny, she works so much harder than I do, but she also has scads more autonomy and is compensated 2+ levels above me. At this point, I don’t really want to stay, but I want some more tangible recognition of my scope, time, and cost-savings for my office. I used to joke with a co-worker on my last team about how nice it would be if we could get a 1% bonus for the cost-savings we saved our office, but seriously, we’d be talking about tens of thousands of dollars, and I can’t get nominated for a $200 spot award? Maybe it’s my customers, they send an email to my manager or office director and count on them to nominate me for something? It’s been a tough year personally and I poured a lot of my extra time and energy into work, despite knowing that I’m not going to get any sort of satisfying return on investment. I just want to feel less helpless and more appreciated. Before he left last year, our Deputy office director joked that I should start asking people, “Is there anything Contract-related I can help you with?” after in a string of meetings with him people thought I was in: IT, Budget, Procurement, and/or Grants. He thought it was hysterical, but I got a little upset, like why aren’t people in those offices, (with education and training!!!) not willing/able to help with all this crap I let myself get involved in and sorted-out?! If I direct people to the correct resource, I hear back in a few days that XYZ POC was unresponsive, this is an urgent request b/c of ABC and can’t I please help this one more time? The first few times, it was satisfying, but after two years, I am spent and realize it won’t get better any time soon. How can I keep it together until I get a new job? Managing my expectations is really difficult.

    1. Assistant to the Norbear Ambassador*

      I have this same problem.
      – The plus side of being the go-to person is: great reputation within the company, knowing things (I love knowing things), knowing who has answers.
      – The minus side: other people don’t have to learn/do parts of their jobs, you’re not appreciated, you’re not compensated, you’re always busy but not always for things that advance your career (or paycheck!), you get more work/responsibility and do not have time to do it all
      – The solution: start saying no and sticking to it. This is hard for me, because I want to help people. Pick one small thing that should be/is someone else’s job, and stop doing it. Then when that’s comfortable, pick something else. “Nope, sorry, you’ll need to go to contracts to review that”. “No, I don’t have time to clear the paper jam; try the onscreen directions or call IT”. – Don’t open the door if you’re not the receptionist. Stop making coffee if you don’t drink it. Don’t clean the kitchen if you didn’t mess it up.
      – At first, it’s faster to just do it yourself, but just like with your family, you have to train people to NOT depend on you. Maybe draft up directions to common issues or FAQs.
      – Also it’s hard if it’s not obvious whose job it is. It helps if your boss has your back in doing this.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I wouldn’t let your manager completely off-the-hook, your manager my love you, but they can’t be considered a “good” or “effective” manager if she can’t get you the recognition you deserve. At the very least you can let her know how disappointed you are with the situation, and if you’re brave you might say you’re disappointed in them.

      When, after you’ve directed people to the correct resource, you’ve hear back that XYZ POC was unresponsive, you need to be able to tell them how to escalate the matter to those people’s supervisors. Sometimes you have to allow a few eggs to drop before the person who is supposed to catch them will step up and actually (and usually relucantly) do so. In similar situations I used email to give myself a paper trail and I would always (passive-aggressively) copy XYZ POC, their supervisor and my supervisor in my response, which really pissed off XYZ PC and their supervisor. Fortunately for me my supervisor was surprisingly supportive.

  101. Library Lady*

    I have an interview for a Circulation Manager position with an Academic Library. I’m a little nervous…. If anyone has any suggestions or helpful experiences, I’d appreciate it!

        1. Jellyfish*

          I’d think Alison’s standard interview tips would be good then!
          In my experience, search committees have responded well to a mix of library and outside experience in the describe-a-time-when part of the interview. Your mileage may vary though.

          If the school has any big initiatives in open access, student success, accessibility, etc, be prepared to discuss those and provide an opinion.

          Second Tedious Cat’s comment about student workers as well.

          Best of luck!

    2. Tedious Cat*

      That’s likely (though not guaranteed) to involve supervising student workers, and they can be tricky in the usual new-to-the-work-world ways. If you’ve got experience supervising very young adults, even in non-work settings like a youth group, I would personally consider that a plus. I’ve got a close friend with a similar position and she’s just great at getting the best out of her student employees, which I think is a huge factor in her success because she doesn’t have some of the traditional credentials.

  102. Teacher’s wife*

    I have a dual question. My husband teaches in the fine arts. The school he currently teaches at is a 45-minute commute, which is taking a heavy toll on him. An old friend recently contacted him to let him know that a position teaching his specialty might be opening up due to an impending maternity leave that his friend believes will turn into a permanent vacancy. My husband met with representatives in the school district (which is just down the street) last night during the district’s job fair, and they were very impressed. I want to respect the current teacher’s maternity leave, at this point, I don’t think there is anything we can do. Is there?
    Second question: his current school district wants him to commit to another school year within the next two weeks. He has heard that if you commit and then change your mind, the school district will charge you a $2,000 fee. I have asked to see this in writing, and have yet to see it. Is this legal? How would they possibly collect it? Thanks!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      If the $2000 contract breech is true, then that really doesn’t seem like THAT much of a penalty if he is going to another job that is much better. The new employer may even provide a hiring bonus to cover that amount.
      And they would likely just withhold the $2K from his final paycheck.

      1. TL -*

        It’s very possible his final paycheck would be less than $2k and public schools don’t give signing bonus as far as I know.

        But some schools do give wiggle room in the contract over the summer, so read it carefully before he signs anything. $2k is a lot!

        1. valentine*

          Do they have good reason to believe the pregnant person won’t return? If not, conspiring to replace them with a man isn’t good.

          1. Teacher’s Wife*

            I don’t think it is as much that his friend is conspiring to fill the position with a man as much as filling it with a good friend.

            1. Green Kangaroo*

              Speaking from what I know of our school district, I wouldn’t count on this position being available to your husband. The teacher who is going out on leave is legally (and probably contractually) entitled to return to her position and it’s doubtful anyone in the administration is going to do anything to open themselves to legal issues and/or the wrath of the union. As far as the breach of contract fee of $2,000, it’s common in teaching contracts and definitely enforceable. If your husband is signing his contracts without reading them, that’s not good.

              1. valentine*

                I don’t think it is as much that his friend is conspiring to fill the position with a man as much as filling it with a good friend.
                There’s no appreciable difference here and gender is part of the reason for the friendship.

  103. Lulu*

    Soon I’m going to be relocating to a new state and a new job that I’m really excited about. All the interviews were remote, though, so I’ve met a handful of people via video but never seen the actual office. My new boss sent me a nice email to see if I had any questions and I’m not sure if there’s something else I should be asking. So far, I have questions about the dress code (vaguely mentioned in the last interview), what time I need to be in the first day and what time they typically start (a couple of different times were mentioned), and if there’s anything I need to bring my first day in terms of documentation. Is there anything else I’m forgetting?

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      You might ask if there’s lunch options in the neighborhood, or fridge space if you brown-bag, for whichever your personal inclination would be for your lunch. (This may also be where they let you know that “Oh, we have a break room with fridge and microwave and there’s three or four cafe/fast-food options within a couple blocks, but we’ll be taking you out for lunch on day one as a welcome, so don’t feel like you need to bring anything that day!” or similar.)

      1. Lulu*

        Oh this is a good Q! I usually brown-bag but planned on holding off so I could do some socializing/intel lunch meetings :).

    3. Turtlewings*

      Ask about parking! You might hear something like “the parking here is atrocious, leave yourself an extra half hour to find a faraway space and walk” or “oh yeah, it’s all metered” or “oh, we’ve assigned you a spot” or who knows what.

  104. Bait and switch job*

    Have you quit a job without having another one lined up? I’m working at a job where I was hired to do job title LLAMA ANALYST and when I started the job was more LLAMA Admin doing very low level clerical tasks. In the few months I have been here my title was changed.

    I have had multiple conversations with my manager about the difference but my concerns are dismissed and nothing changes.

    Recently I was informed the team is telling my boss, I don’t want to do my job. I have never said that.

    Since I haven’t been here long, I’m considering quitting and leaving this job off of my resume. Have you ever quit a job without another lined up and how did that work out for you?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I did it with my first job in 2004.

      Would never recommend it unless you’re being abused or your paycheck is bouncing, mine was the fact my paycheck was bouncing…

      And it took me over a year and six months of temping to recoup from that, it was hell on earth personally. But it depends on the average time it takes you to find work and your finances.

    2. Natalie*

      My husband did in 2017 to attend to some health issues. In his case he was able to collect unemployment (quitting for health reasons qualifies in my state) and I work full time, so it really wasn’t too bad.

      Whether or not it will work out for you depends on your situation, but if you are in an in-demand field and an area with low unemployment, and you have some savings, it’s certainly not the worst thing you could do. Depending on how extreme of a difference there is between the position you were hired for and the one you’re doing, you could also see if it qualifies you for UI in your state, just for some extra cushion.

    3. Alex in Marketing*

      I have and everything turned out well, but there was a huge chance that it wouldn’t. I was in a bad situation where my mental health was rapidly declining, directly related to my work environment. Within three weeks, I got another job. But that job only paid $28,000/year when I had previously been making $50,000. I had to move in with my parents the entire time I had that job.

      The new job was not ideal in other ways. I stuck it out a year there, but only out of necessity. My boss was abusive, and expected way more than I could give. As a marketing specialist, I did a lot of work that had nothing to do with marketing (like painting walls in my boss’s office). It wasn’t worth it, but I realize it could have turned out WAY worse.

    4. Anon4This*

      Yep. I spent 6 months at a place that was completely insane. When I started having daily panic attacks on the way to work, I quit without anything else lined up, with my husband’s encouragement. At the time I quit we thought we would be okay on just his income but we started to feel the pressure of not having my salary pretty quickly. The worst was my husband’s job did not come with benefits and we found that insurance- whether through the open marketplace or COBRA was going to be outrageously expensive. Luckily, I found another job pretty quickly and was only off for about a month, but if I hadn’t it might have been bad. That being said- it was quit or end up in the psych ward so I know it was the right choice.

    5. CaseyDaw*

      Yep. Changed my life in every way possible in all the best ways possible. I’d never do it again (heh…it was 5 years ago and I’m just now paying off the debt from being unemployed for three months and taking a 20K paycut for 3 years) (I now make more than I ever have) but I’d never change what I did.

    6. ContemporaryIssued*

      I did but it was a job I’d been at for 3 years and I was mentally stuck. I did apply for new jobs but just felt stuck in a rut. I saved like hell and prepared myself for 6-12 months of unemployment and then quit right before the rush season. I had a break for about 2 weeks, then started applying like crazy and landed a job 2 months after I walked out.

      It was awkward at a few job interviews to explain why I left. I used a generic explanation, “a change in life circumstances”.

      I don’t recommend it because the perilousness of it but I think it can be fine once or twice during your lifetime.

  105. Matilda Jefferies*

    How do you manage your “stuff?” I feel like I have a lot to carry between work and home, and I’m not sure if it’s a question of reducing the amount I carry, finding a better way of carrying it, or just learning to live with it. I commute on a crowded subway, with about a ten-minute walk outdoors at both ends, so portability and weatherproofing are important.

    These are the things I have to carry every day:
    • Wallet/keys/phone/earbuds
    • Work phone
    • Laptop
    • Paper notebook
    • Coffee mug

    Then, depending on the weather and various other things, I might also have:
    • Hat and gloves
    • Kleenex and hand sanitizer
    • Umbrella
    • Sunglasses
    • Book
    • Lunch or snacks

    Most of it goes in a backpack, and I have a small wallet for my transit pass and essential cards. If I’m bringing my lunch, that goes in a separate bag as well. It doesn’t sound like a lot, but it feels like a lot, and my back is always sore from carrying it all.

    Other people seem to be doing perfectly well with just a backpack or just a shoulder bag, so I feel like there’s some secret trick to all this, that everybody knows except me!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This sounds pretty similar to what I have, minus laptop. Which I’d carry in a laptop/messenger style bag. Then everything else fits in my oversized purse and pockets…do you lack pockets? My cellphone goes in my back pocket or jacket pocket or front pockets. Even my lunch fits in my purse!

    2. LunaMei*

      My secret trick was investing in a really good laptop bag with LOTS of pockets. I used to carry about the same amount of stuff in a backpack, and it was just all thrown together and disorganized. For Christmas, I got myself a Dagne Dover laptop bag, and it’s AMAZING. There are just so many pockets!!!! It keeps all the crap organized. I didn’t think I would be able to fit my 30 oz Nalgene bottle in it after my laptop and all that stuff, but I do! I will also occasionally throw in a book or hat/gloves. You could probably bit one of those small umbrellas in it as well. And my favorite part – the tiny cellphone pocket on the back, it makes getting to my phone really easy.

      It wasn’t cheap – over $100 – but it makes everything so much easier for me. It’s also quite comfortable, and I have shoulder issues, so that was important to me. Sometimes they run certain colors on sale, so check the sale section. I got the Ryan laptop bag in size large, and it hold my Dell Latitude.

      (Side note: when I was nursing my daughter, I also hauled around a pumping bag…so I had the pumping bag, a backpack, and my purse, and it was just awful).

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        I’m a guy and I’m a bit disappointed that these were all women’s bags, but I’d seriously consider buying that diaper bag to use as a laptop bag. Has anyone else here used the Dagne Dover diaper bag? What is it like?

      2. Matilda Jefferies*

        Dang it! I just fell in love with one of their bags, only to find out they don’t ship to Canada. Story of my life. :) Thanks for the recommendation – they do look great!

    3. Mimosa Jones*

      I mostly work from home but one day a week I work on-site and have to juggle a purse, a tote bag, a packed lunch, my breakfast smoothie bottle, a water bottle, and my insulated coffee mug (which is at least empty at this point). All are necessary and my tote bag doesn’t have cup holders so I also have to protect the contents from spills. I’ve been moving my wallet to the tote bag, which eliminates the purse, but it’s still a pain. I recently discovered this company’s products and love the concept. (https://minkeeblue.com/)

    4. Nicki Name*

      My load’s similar to yours. A couple things that help are having a backpack with lots of different pockets for sorting things into, including a separate laptop slot inside the main space, and having my lunch in hard-sided, airtight containers so I don’t have to worry about it rattling around with everything else in the main pocket of my backpack.

      The only other thing I can suggest is looking for a more comfortable backpack. Getting one with a strap across the chest to support the load differently was an improvement for me.

    5. Mockingjay*

      Can you lighten the load? Instead of an umbrella, a packable rain jacket (the kind you can roll up tightly and weighs little). Instead of the book, read an e-book on your phone (I have the Kindle app and my local library e-service app). Snacks and lunch: I go out at lunch on Mondays to a nearby store and stock up on things I can keep in my cube / office fridge. Hand sanitizer and kleenex: again, buy full-size on Mondays for your desk; put travel size in your purse. And so on.

      Seems like a fair amount of duplication, but it took a huge load out of my purse and off my shoulder.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        I’ve done some of this, including things like having reading glasses and chargers for my electronics at work and at home. I don’t mind a bit of duplication! Stocking up on snacks is a good idea as well, thanks.

    6. DataGirl*

      Is there anything that can be left at work? I switched to a rolling laptop case because of shoulder problems and I can fit quite a lot into it, but I drive so I don’t know if that would be a pain on the subway.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      Honestly, I use a small “carry-on” bag that I bought at a luggage store. Holds all that stuff, has a shoulder strap. I opted for one without, but wheels are an option that can help if you have a really long commute or physical issues such as a bad back. (And I have friends who use stylish diaper bags, as someone else already suggested.)

    8. CaseyDaw*

      Tote bag with multiple TruffleCo pouches for keys, cardholder, pens, and cords. I carry what you carry and it works great. How heavy is your laptop?

    9. Alex*

      I have a very big backpack and also commute on a crowded public transportation system (I walk to the bus, then transfer to the train, then walk about 3/4 mile the rest of the way to work). I carry all the things you list above except maybe the paper notebook and book, but add gym clothes with boxing gloves, breakfast and sometimes dinner, a water bottle, and computer charger.

      My bag is very heavy, but it is a pretty good backpack so I can handle it on my back for the most part. The most inconvenient part is if the subway and/or bus is very crowded and so I have to take my backpack off and hold it in my hand while standing because there are no available seats. Ugh!

  106. CogintheWheel*

    Does anyone have any advice for how to include (or if to include) former direct reports on a resume? In my current position we’ve had several re-orgs this past year; over the summer I acquired a direct report but as of last month they’ve been placed under someone else. This wasn’t due to my management or anything, just a continued reshuffling of the department as we undergo some major changes. I may have another in the future but it’s not in the budget this year.

    I had listed on my resume that I supervised the Teapot Specialist position, but now that that’s not true I’m not sure if I should mention that I used to have a report. I wouldn’t want anyone to think I’d fluffed up and lost a management position, but I also want to make it clear I have supervisory experience (which unfortunately I can’t point to in previous jobs). I have also managed interns and contractors so that’s there, but I feel like having a permanent direct report is stronger. Advice?

  107. Mimosa Jones*

    About 18 years ago I was fired after 2 months of employment. The job was not a good fit and I had already resumed my job hunt. I left them off my resume, did a bunch of contract work for a couple years and then became a SAHM. I thought the company had gone out of business, but I recently googled for them and there’s a company with the exact same name that’s been in business for long enough it could be them. I’m ramping up my job search and live in a different state. Is there any reason I should check and see if they’re the same company?

    1. nep*

      Why would you check? Do you mean in order to include it on your resume, or in case that employment ever comes up? (Genuine questions–I’m looking to understand why you’d want to know whether same company.)

      1. Mimosa Jones*

        No, I wouldn’t include it on my resume. But I thought I saw something here that while the resume is a marketing document that can include or exclude what you want, an application has to include everything. And I’m a bit of a stickler for accuracy. I don’t think I’ll ever be applying for a job requiring a government level background check, so if I were to stick with my original assumption that the company had gone out of business, I don’t think anyone would dig into that further. I had googled a couple times over the years to see if they still existed and found nothing. Maybe this new company changed their name at some point.

        1. De Minimis*

          I don’t think I’ve seen many applications that require someone to go back that far. It’s definitely not the norm, not even in government. Depending on what else I had to put on my resume, I probably wouldn’t include something that far in the past, especially for such a short stay.

          I’m in the process of a government background check now, and they only go back seven years for employment questions [great for me since all my bad job history happened 10-11 years ago.]

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are you thinking of reapplying there? Otherwise, why would it matter since it’s not on your resume?

      Also it’s 18 years, it shouldn’t be on your resume even if you hadn’t been fired and lasted a couple of years most likely!

  108. Aloy (despite the Nora)*

    Hi all! Long-time reader, but first time commenting :)

    I’m a 30-something female who stumbled into my current job straight out of college and just… never left. What I do has literally no relation to my undergraduate degree, and I haven’t used it professionally in about 7 years. The pay and benefits are AWESOME, but increasingly my responsibilities are swerving so hard away from what I find tolerable, much less enjoyable, that I’m miserable basically all the time. I’ve had numerous conversations about my boss about it, but for the foreseeable future nothing is changing. For a long time the pros made up for the cons (paid off student loans!!!), but I’m finally at the point where I’m committing to changing careers. Like, completely changing fields. I’ve been spending a lot of time figuring out what it is I actually want to do with my life, and right now a career in technical writing looks appealing: I love learning about new subjects, I love teaching and instructing (and have had multiple positions in the past doing so), and I love writing. I know technical writing has more depth to it than that, but at a high level it’s the best starting point I’ve found so far.

    My current plan is to get a certification through the STC. My thinking is that the studying process will give me a better look at what all goes into technical writing without the commitment of, say, enrolling in a Master’s program. From what I’ve been able to find online the STC seems like a reputable institution, and hopefully with a certification I’ll be able to get a foot in the door more easily than I would currently.

    So, for any technical writers out there, any advice? Is there anything about the field that you wish you would’ve known before getting into it? Or, any advice from people who have switched career fields completely? I feel like I’m at an age where I should be “settling” into my chosen path, not jumping ship entirely, and it’s absolutely terrifying.

    1. LQ*

      I don’t have any advice for technical writing.

      But I do think switching careers is totally worth it. You are not at an age where you should be settling and sort of done with picking your career, you can absolutely jump ship entirely.

      At about 30 I realized I might end up changing careers every ten years or so. I’m 38 and moving into a senior manager role which is really different so I’m just about right for career number 3. Which is fairly similar to a lot of other folks.

  109. NaoNao*

    Ideas for motivating long-time employees in very limited call center roles needed. I’m working on training for managers on improving attendance for problem employees. The problems range from consistent tardiness to outright time clock massaging (like using just enough sick time to get to the required/expected 40 hours), and clocking out using an app when they get home rather than in the office. The problems aren’t MY problem but I need some ideas on low cost, low effort ways to motivate employees. These employees have been with the company since it was a flip-flop office owner-lead/founder-lead small software org, and have been answering phones for 10+ years with no advancement. We’re moving away from the “whatever” vibe to a much, much tighter ship and naturally that’s…not fun for them. The job’s pretty thankless, but I feel there are still some levers we can touch besides “threat of firing” to get people excited about work.

    I’ve got a few ideas (spot Starbucks cards at end of shift on a successfully completed shift, Monday AM breakfast potluck, Team Names/colors/swag/banners, and the like) but I’d love more!

    1. Well, there's this*

      Having worked in a call center, I can tell you these are not going to help you motivate people. Call center is a thankless job and I am seriously stunned that anyone could do it for ten years.

      If you want to motivate employees, show them they are valued. The best way to accomplish this, in my opinion, is a raise or additional PTO day. In lieu of that, find some way to get them additional training in things like communication skills, business writing.

      What I would do in order to move the ‘tighter ship’ culture forward is ask them for input towards developing metrics. Tell everyone flat-out that business is growing and they need to honor their commitments by being on-shift on time.

      1. NaoNao*

        Yeah, I hear you. These employees have been, by choice, answering complex, hand-holding relationship-based tech/consult calls so it’s not like…straight being screamed at like other centers. Also they were allowed to “get away with” behavior that maybe wouldn’t fly in other orgs—extremely casual hygiene and dress, rough around the edges manners, and zero initiative or development. We will be offering professional and skill development chances in addition to little “on the spot thank you” stuff. There’s also an issue in that this is in OR, where the employment laws highly favor the employee and we have people who accrue one hour of sick time and immediately use it, who milk the time clock, and so on. A pay raise…I’m not sure that would solve basic professionalism and integrity issues!

        1. Annony*

          Nothing will fix integrity issues. At that point you need to make it harder for them to commit time theft or document it well so that you can fire them. Can you change the time clock to require them to clock in and out on site?

    2. LogicalOne*

      I’ve had similar issues at my company as well (tardiness, disengagement, etc) and one thing that’s helped me is checking in with my staff every so often to see how things are going and not just from a work standpoint but a personable standpoint. When managers are interested in their staff’s life outside of work, it really boosts morale. There are those who also like to keep personal life private as well so thats understandable.
      I have a bowl of chocolate at my desk in which all staff are invited to come and take some at anytime. It is also an excuse to strike up a little conversation or just to say, hows it going, how are you? etc. Maybe instead of a potluck, depending on how much money you have, you could order food or bring in bagels etc. It would be nice if staff didn’t have to worry about making or bringing food. We also have workiversary celebrations where we give staff who celebrate work anniversaries, a little gift bag with swag, keychains, a gift card, fruit, chocolates, and a thank you card.
      Best of luck!

      1. NaoNao*

        Oh I like the workaversary idea! I’m not the manager and don’t have a budget for bringing stuff in but I can advise the manager in my training!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is complacency that you’re running into, especially with the outright time theft of clocking out when they get home…that’s something you need to address more quickly than the rest because whoever decided that trick was even okay during a laid-back ship was outright wrong and lacking in ethics.

      How visible are you? Are accessible are you? Often if you are a person they respect and are respectful of them, that also really helps. Instead of tucking away inside an office and them just running around doing what they want.

      Those are very nice perks for a place that’s generally a decent place to work, good benefits and good pay and good management. But no amount of Starbucks will replace that and will continue to get this kind of subpar attitude. Sometimes you have to leave well enough alone as well, like the using their sick time to pad their time, whatever, I would lose that issue off your list immediately.

      Tight-ship mentality leads to turnover. The good thing here is you are good enough to have people there for a decade, so you have to work around that without letting them completely run all over the place with their games.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I worked with a call center manager that had a hard core ship of CSNs. She set goals based on reportable metrics and they received various levels of rewards for hitting the goals. Some rewards were small, like starbucks gift cards, and the top performer of the month would get a $50 Target gift card. These goals were tracked constantly and it was my job to build the reports and send them out every week so each CSN knew how they were doing. The goals also impacted yearly raises and bonuses, so all the CSNs knew how their performance impacted their salary.
      Some people didn’t cut it, but the remaining crew were the best in the industry.
      Oh, and the manager constantly listened to calls and had lots of one on one coaching sessions.

    5. LizLemon*

      Have you tried looking into Gamification of their work? Along with some of the other commenters, I think it would be more effective to focus on improving the actual work experience (invest in your employee’s professional growth and development, making sure they have all the right tools and training to excel at their jobs, and helping them to see how their work matters). I think the “fluff” type of ideas that you have considered are not really going to move the needle, and in some cases they can move things in a bad direction by seeming patronizing and like management is focusing on the wrong things. Anyway, back to gamification, it might be a way to focus on improving performance metrics in addition to a way to add fun and a sense of achievement to their work. I imagine call center type jobs can be demoralizing or unmotivating because you hardly see how your work is making a positive change. You never get to look back and say, “hey, I built that!” Figuring out ways to make their achievements more tangible, and giving them something to work toward, both individually and as a team, may help. In addition, it is critical to start consistently enforcing rules (time clock issues) and being willing to part ways with employees who are not on board.

  110. Stormy Weather*

    Who writes some of these job descriptions? I seriously wonder what drugs people are taking that warp their minds so.

    Examples:

    –10 years experience in programming in Alpaca when the Alpaca programming language has only been in existence 5 years

    –anything that includes ‘rock star’

    –Entry level position that requires a high-level professional certification that takes a minimum of 3 years to qualify for

    –My personal favorite: ‘must exude Otter-wrangling excellence.’ Yeah, there’s a lot of over-the-counter topical creams that can help with that.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I hate it when the description says, “Must be familiar with Alpaca, Ostrich, Penguin, or Geranium software.”
      Which one do they actually use? They don’t use all four systems. Just because all those systems kinda do the same thing doesn’t mean you don’t need to learn a whole new language and GUI to work the back end. I know one and that is the one I want to continue working with. Ugh.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        But doesn’t the “or” take care of that? I can see your frustration if they said “and.”

    3. Retail not Retail*

      Must be able to hike 3-5 miles with a chainsaw with or without assistance.

      It was the with or without that got me because isn’t that true of everyone?

      I can do it without assistance thank you very much, even though I’ve yet to use the chainsaw at work.

  111. Book Pony*

    I had my interview yesterday! And I was sick! But I think despite that, it went really well! (Although one of the interviewers asked if I was ok, and I had to sit down after my presentation. Yes, I should’ve rescheduled, but I got sick the day of and don’t have a lot of PTO left to change days OTL)

    Fingers crossed that I’ll be able to move on from my current job and into this one, where everyone seems really nice, normal, and not…my current sitch. The commute is better, the people are better, the location is good (I’ve worked here before for a different section.), the office culture seems good from the questions I asked. Just…so much better than my current job. Woof.

    Hope everyone else job hunting is having a good time, and may we all find a better place to work. >w<

    1. Well, there's this*

      Good luck! Job hunting is an emotional roller coaster and I hope yours comes to a safe stop soon.

  112. Entry Level Marcus*

    Any advice on staying focused and productive during slower days at work?

    When I have a full day’s worth of work to do and/or pressing deadlines, I find it easy to be focused and productive. However, on slower days I find I waste a lot of time on AAM, reading the news, daydreaming, scrolling through a social media, etc. It’s not that there’s nothing I could be doing, but just that all the things I could be doing are self-directed and don’t have deadlines. Think things like taking the time to turn A/A- work into A+ work, reading articles/books directly related to my field, learning new technical skills, or working on back burner projects. When I try do this kind of work, my ability to focus seems to go out the window.

    I know it’s fine to not spend every minute of a slow day completely focused on work, but I’d like to be more productive than I am.

    1. Aloy (despite the Nora)*

      I have an app on my phone call Digital Wellbeing that I have set up to go automatically into “focus mode” during work hours, which means it blocks whichever apps I designate. Obviously this isn’t helpful if you’re browsing on your work computer, but I was struggling with the same thing you are and it helped nudge me toward productivity; I’m more likely to finally clean up those spreadsheets when my Instagram craving is literally shut down, lol.

      1. valentine*

        Schedule it in chunks so you don’t get bored and, if anything puts you to sleep, schedule short AAM breaks between them and set an alarm to switch tasks.

    2. wingmaster*

      If I ever have down time, I like to clean and organize my workspace. I think physically doing a task like this helps me be away from the computer or my phone.

      Sometimes I’ll take a walk! I’m able to do so since my workplace is over a shopping mall..which is dangerous for my wallet.

    3. Stormy Weather*

      I’ve actually been asked this question at an interview and I sometimes use it now, especially when hiring for internships or junior positions. Here’s what I think are good answers:

      –Make a to-do list for tomorrow
      –See if anyone needs help
      –take advantage of any online education the company has
      –read industry articles
      –read business-skills related articles (one job I had permitted the use of YouTube if it was for learning, which was pretty cool)
      –study for a job-related certification

      The walk that wingmaster suggested is also good mentally. Sometimes a brief change in atmosphere can do wonders.

  113. Miss M*

    Happy Friday! Has anyone applied to a job where you know an old coworker (whom you’ve never met formally) works there? An old coworker, I essentially filled her position, works at another company and a position opened there. I think she left our office for the same reasons we are all trying to leave. I’m just afraid that she is going to tell my boss that I applied since they still stay in contact. Should I just go for it?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I suppose your old coworker could tell your boss that you applied for a job at her company, but if I were you I’d still go for it. If she did tell your boss that you applied for another job, it might be a wake-up call to your boss that they might need to make some much-needed changes in the work situation. Don’t write-off this opportunity. If you don’t this particular job, you’re obviously going to keep looking for a new job anyway, so go for it.

  114. Tahani*

    The interview I had last Friday went pretty well, except I completely messed up the last question. The hiring manager said “We want a really quick turnaround so you’ll hear from us soon.” Typically, they’ve contacted me in 2-3 days but it’s been a week. I think I’m better off just giving up on it and not holding hope, but instead focusing on other jobs. I’m taking someone’s recommendation and taking a little vacation and not thinking about my current job or future jobs for at least a week.

  115. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    Could use advice on helping a bereaved parent on the birthday of their child.

    My teammate and his wife had a micropreemie last year and she didn’t make it after spending 9 months in the NICU. So the loss is very fresh for them. Her birthday is next week.
    After her funeral he took a break and when he came back he said he wanted to move forward and not dwell on it.
    Do we mention it and offer a hug (hugging is pretty normal for our team culture), or just be ready for him to ask for anything he needs or to support him if he mentions it? We don’t want to pick at a wound, but also don’t want to paper over it all if he needs to acknowledge it.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He drives this ship. Be mindful of the day and be kind to him but do not bring that up. He may not want the band-aid ripped off. Or he may wish to have a celebration and therefore, he may bring it up and you can act compassionate towards him. But do not prescriptively bring it up because he may be burying it for work purposes or he may not show up that day, don’t be shocked if he calls in sick…

      I have sadly known many over the years with children that were lost and everyone handles it in their extremely personal way.

      1. SufferinSuccotash*

        this up here yes. 10/10
        and every year is a fresh rodeo of grief so this year’s reaction may be different from next year’s.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I applaud you for remembering this kind of event in a coworkers life though! Lots of people rightfully forget dates of grief of others.

          My best friend from childhood passed during childhood. Some years I actually forget until a day or two after, despite regularly visiting his resting place. My mom is the same with her parents. Other times it hits me like it’s fresh. Grief is a real jackhole that lurks there and you’re not sure if they’re going to pull a punch or what. This is part of why they usually say “It never gets easier” but you start to evolve with it, so it’s not that the same constant, which sometimes is perceived as “easier” in some, you know.

  116. Contractor, Unfortunately*

    Hopefully I’m not too late for this…

    I’m currently working for a company, 1 year contract-to-hire, through a staffing agency. A position has opened up at my old company and the manager reached out to me to ask if I was interested. Now, this contract job pays a lot more – about $10k more – but the insurance through the staffing agency is terrible (I have a lot of health problems), there’s no PTO, and there are multiple people in my department that were contract-to-hire for two or three years before finally getting a full-time role.

    That said, old job had some toxic/abrasive personalities – nothing horrible but not fun. I dealt with them fine but I would also be more exposed to them in this new role.

    What would you do?

    1. DataGirl*

      It’s worth it to at least talk to them? Go in for an interview and see how it goes. Health insurance when you need it is very valuable.

    2. Buttons*

      Can you talk to your current company about if the 1 year is solid or if there is a possibility of going full time sooner?

  117. Eillah*

    Hi! I’m a 27 year old admin who is going to be teaching her peers/lower-level admins how write more efficiently in business communication without sacrificing clarity or structure. I have an English degree from Fordham and written communication is one of my strongest skills. How do I approach respectfully teaching women who are older than me or less educated without being a condescending ass?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d stay away from nit-picking grammar and stick to the overall theme of concise communication. No need to harp on people using two spaces in between sentences or getting into fights on Harvard commas…that’s where people get pissed. People are generally open to learning communication concepts, and I bet many people need to be reminded that recipients are reading responses on their phones and watches.

    2. Buttons*

      I would approach it as “10 most common business writing mistakes” or something like that. As in these mistakes get made the most in the whole world. Or you approach it as how to structure a communication by asking the following questions; who is your audience? What do they need to know? Why do they need to know? What is your purpose for this? What action needs to be taken? What resources will someone need?
      You might also introduce them to tools like Grammarly which will catch not only spelling errors but grammar and clarity errors.

      Good luck!

    3. WellRed*

      You asked, frankly, how not to be condescending. I realize you likely didn’t mean anything by it, but I always find it kind of … when someone feels a need to announce where the degree is from. Signed, English degree, not from Fordham.

    4. TL -*

      Just be really matter of fact. It’s not inherently embarrassing to learn something, to have your work edited, or to be taught a new skillset from someone else, so don’t treat it like it is. Don’t single people out. Draw from things you’ve consistently noticed in the office but either don’t use specific examples or make them up yourself. Acknowledge that writing is difficult without putting emotional weight on the difficulty.

      Finally, don’t lean on your credentials for authority. If you’re good at what you’re doing, it will show – have confidence in your skillset, not your university. (And plenty of English majors are bad writers.)

      I do a fair amount of very, very thorough editing in my work and as long as I treat it like I’m doing my job and they’re doing theirs, it’s never been an issue. And I’m a cover the page with red type of editor, so I know I’m not easy on the ego.

    5. Terse or Worse*

      Often, when lower-level admins feel condescended to, taken for granted and unappreciated, they will try to compensate a bit by showing off by using jargon and big words when they are not really appropriate to the situation. Try framing the issue, not as them writing inefficiently, but about them making it easier for the readers of their writing. Make them feel like they are part of the solution.

  118. Becoming a Boss*

    TL/DR: I was promoted and will now be managing three staff who spent an entire year officially without a manager, unofficially for 4 years. How do I make for an easy transition limiting tension, resentment, and discomfort?

    I work in a very small nonprofit (4 of us currently, about to be 5 of us). A year ago, our Director was fired for a handful of things, but mostly just a really poor job performance across the board after a 360 review.

    Given the timing of hiring a new Director with an all-volunteer Board, we went about 10 months without a manager. Though there was no formal hierarchy (the Board Chair became our manager–mostly just signing off on timesheets, etc.), I and another Senior staff person took on most of the Director role and helped to support other staff, make decisions the Director would have, etc. Mostly, however, every staff person (were all pretty self-motivated and directed) was just expected to accomplish the tasks required with their jobs. To be honest, it wasn’t a huge change from the three years with our last Director, as he was extremely hands-off, didn’t conduct reviews or feedback forms, and was frequently absent. We tended to go to eachother for advice instead of him anyway. We mostly just went to him to sign-off on budget items.

    In late December, I was promoted to Director and will now be overseeing the rest of the staff (and a new hire to replace me). I will be going from a fun colleague to a boss-less coworkers to their manager.

    I’m trying to figure out the easiest way to make this transition without too much uncomfortableness (I assume some growing pains are impossible to avoid) or resentment (the staff all supported me in going after this job, but that doesn’t mean they won’t want a boss when they haven’t had any oversight for years). Our Board Chair is a wonderful man, but has never been a manager and doesn’t even understand the concerns, so he’s not available to help ease the transition.

    Any help/thoughts?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      good luck :) This will probably be a bit of a balancing act.

      Since you will be taking over what sounds like a good functioning team, it sounds like you can let the adjustments happen slowly (but not too slowly). My advice would be to set your expectations up front, with a nod to the fact that you think they are well functioning team as is.

      Things like;
      What your role will be
      When you’d like to be included/consulted
      What immediate changes you are planning (keep these to a minimum to start unless there is real need for drastic or numerous changes)

      Then ask them what kinds of things they would like from you, what they thought of the way that they’ve been working together, what’s working, what’s not working.

    2. LizLemon*

      I agree that priority would be communicating your role, expectations, and immediate (limited) changes. What I also would add is to not be too timid in an attempt to not offend your staff. It’s not fun working for a manager who cannot make up their mind or constantly seeks input from everyone before making a decision.

  119. Accidental Raise!*

    A few weeks ago, there was a post about raises, if we got one for 2020, and if we did, how much was it? I was given a 2% increase, the first one in years. I was planning a case to ask for 5% but was called into my boss’s office and advised of the 2% increase before I had my ducks in a row. When I received my first full 2 week paycheck for the year, I made sure to “do the math”, and instead of 2%, it was a 5% increase instead! I called my boss, he said “no, that’s not what we discussed, are you sure you’re looking at that correctly?” So, back down to the office, showed him the pay stub, he said…huh…let me make a phone call.

    Bottom line – he called me later in the day, told me that yes, it was a mistake, thanked me for reporting it, and that I would be keep the new pay rate, and I was worth every penny! I am fairly excited about this!

  120. Unplanned photo shoot*

    Just when I think things at work couldn’t get worse we held a team meeting this morning at a local hotel. Could have been ok but for the fact that one of the junior sales team, at manager’s direction, took photos for most of the event. We were stuck in rows and there was no way to avoid the camera. I am not in the least bit photogenic and absolutely hate having my photo taken and feel sick at the thought of Monday morning review of the photos. The impromptu photo shoot was topped off by me looking up only to see that he’d got his phone out for video – I was so surprised I glared at him so can only imagine how that’s going to look in glorious technicolor.

  121. The Babiest Babyface*

    Sometimes you land in a depressive episode for like two weeks and it messes your whole semester up! Sometimes you have to do well in two classes because the professor for the others is so chill and understands mental health issues! Sometimes you panic so bad because you’re technically failing the two classes with the chill professor!! Sometimes you gotta just post things on the Friday open thread where people understand your anxious screaming

    3. Turtlewings*

      Hugs from me as well! This might be one of those situations that calls for actually articulating the worst case scenario (you fail the classes, where does that leave you?), and figuring out a game plan for if it occurs. You may be surprised to find that the worst case scenario is not THAT bad after all. Or maybe it is — but it will still shrink in scariness when you actually face how bad it might be, and have a plan to get through it if it happens.

      Best of luck, I hope you can pull everything together! You’ll get through it one way or another!

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Sending virtual hugs/vibes/whatever you prefer. If your campus has a mental health center, see if you can drop in. If not, make an appointment. They may be able to help.

  122. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Suggestions for job hunting with (hopefully) temporary hearing problems?
    Amn ear infection in early January went away but left hearing loss & severe tinnitus behind…and I am trying to get my resume into a form that will get me out of this increasingly chaotic place. My ENT has me scheduled for an exam in 2 weeks…at this point I hear best on headsets because I can turn up the volume when voices are in my bad range.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I should mention, I have no hearing aid. I was recommended for one but had put it off, and now need to wait until the temporary situation is cleared up or declared permanent.

  123. Liz47*

    I’m newly out of grad school (yay!) and have continued working as a temp contractor at my current company while I hunt for a professional gig with my shiny new degree. The company where I’m currently temping is big enough that they have a department where I would now love to work with my new degree. Should I ask my current supervisor to put in a good word for me, or should I stay quiet? We have a great relationship and I know she’s happy with my work. I know the conventional wisdom is to keep quiet with a current employer, but my supervisor is aware that I’ve finished my degree program. And this would be staying with the same company, just a different department. Are the rules different? I don’t want to miss out on a good reference/connection. Is there anything else I should keep in mind for what is sort of an internal interview, but also not? Thanks!!

    1. Zephy*

      If you’re a temp, you probably have an end date in your contract – your boss knows that at some point you are going to leave, and given how long it can take to get hired sometimes, it wouldn’t be unreasonable for you to be looking into your next move even a few months out from the end of your contract. It’s worth starting that conversation with your boss.

      1. Liz47*

        I think you’re right. I’ll try to grab a few minutes to speak with her before we head out for the weekend. Thanks!

    2. Buttons*

      I wouldn’t ask her to put in a word in for you, I would ask her about the hiring process and about opportunities that might be available in the area you want to work. Based on that, you might be able to ask her for an introduction to someone within that department. But most companies have a strict job application process, which includes internal postings.

      1. Liz47*

        I realize now that I didn’t include the fact that I did do the regular application process through the website and now have an interview. I know exactly who I’ll be interviewing with next week.

        1. Buttons*

          Oh that is awesome!! Ha! that changes everything. I would ask her if she has any tips and if she would be a reference for you if asked. Good luck!

  124. Trixie*

    For those who book travel regularly, any tips and tricks to share or ongoing issues? My biggest gripe is when I’m sharing flight information, I prefer not to include the final flight cost. I prefer Delta because I can share the trip details without the financial.
    My other challenge is adding frequent flyer after the flight is booked, which may just be up to the traveler to update.

  125. Instructional Designer*

    If you’re in the instructional design/elearning industry (and I believe there are a few of us here), do you have any suggestions for career development or professional development opportunities and avenues? I feel like it’s time for me to progress beyond what I’ve been doing for the past few years, but am not quite sure where or what. I know there many different software and delivery systems I could learn. I’m also considering formal project management training. I will also be looking into accessibility training. What are some interesting possibilities you’ve seen in the elearning space?

    1. Maybe?*

      Project management and accessibility are great starts. You might even consider looking into skills and opportunities within the realm of UX.

  126. Strawberry Red*

    I think I’m about to be offered a job that I’m really not sure about.

    Pros:
    -Commute (literally a 3-minute walk from my house, which is especially important because I’m currently not driving for medical reasons)
    -A bit different than my current role
    -I really want to leave my current job ASAP

    Cons:
    -Disorganized hiring process (vague job description, interviews were rescheduled multiple times, both interviews were really short)
    -Two different salary ranges were named (with a discrepancy of about $15k, and the second time, commission was mentioned)
    -Both interviews were so short that I still really don’t even have a solid grasp of the job
    -Sounds somewhat similar to my current role in the sense that it would involve wearing a lot of different hats, which I’m hoping to avoid

    Guys, what do you think? I don’t want to just throw away this opportunity, but I’m just not sure if I have a good feeling about this.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      If they offer you the job is should take care of #2, you’ll know the salary and the title.
      I would put the disorganized hiring process in the neutral category, since that can happen to good companies

      The bottom two are the ones I’d focus on, if you get the offer, call and talk to the hiring manager, and tell them that you don’t feel like you have a solid grasp of the job and you’d like to ask a few more questions. Then ask specific questions to see if you can get what you need to make an informed decision. This will help determine if your last one is an issue still.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I’ve absolutely had jobs where I was hired and they didn’t take care of #2, because in the onboarding/first few days process I received mixed messages (three different pay rates in a month, drastic duty changes from week 1 to week 2) and ended up quitting.

        It is VERY awkward and unprofessional to end up in that situation; I’d get that in writing before filling out any hire documents.

        1. SomebodyElse*

          I thought that was implied in my statement about an offer. The offer should absolutely have the job title, salary, and benefit information. What else would it have?

            1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

              For one job, I was told a title/salary. Then I found a different title/salary in my employee portal, and then a pay period later when we changed portals, I found yet a different salary listed in that employee portal.

    2. De Minimis*

      Oof, that sounds rough. The short commute can have a major positive impact on quality of life, but the uncertainty about pay and the objectives of the job are huge red flags.

      It probably depends on how bad you want to leave the current job, but I’d probably pass unless it was just truly unbearable at my current position. Your gut instinct is usually right.

    3. Strawberry Red*

      I forgot one major pro; my potential supervisor seems legitimately nice, and a lot more easygoing than my current boss (a.k.a. 85 percent of why I’m looking to leave).

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Gelling with your supervisor is a big plus. I agree with what others said, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to know more about the role before you agree to anything.

        “I’m so excited to receive an offer! I have a few more questions about the role, would you be open to a phone call?”

        If they say no or you don’t feel good about their answers, you can always turn it down then.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      I just started a job where the job description was very vague and generic and scheduling wasn’t the easiest. When I left the initial 1 hr interview I did not feel I had a good grasp of the job but also felt my background was not what they were looking for so sort of wrote it off. I did get a call back the next day which clarified that while the job was not what I had been doing, the base skillset would be a huge asset to the role. I was able to talk with HR to at least confirm that the salary and title were in line with what I was looking for.
      At the second interview I got a little more clarification about the job but not a ton (more of a this is what our team does but we aren’t sure which parts are going to be transitioned to you). The role is new and the company is finalizing a reorg and there are still a few question marks. At the end of that interview I got the offer.
      Been here a month and I know in the long run it is a great move but most conversations have a “not sure this is going to move to you or not but…” and I don’t have a ton of work yet.
      So I would find out if A) is it a new role? If so, that would explain a lot of the vague job information B) internal recruiters/HR or an external company? C) Are you interviewing during what would be considered their “busy season”? The answers to these will either confirm your feelings or alleviate them.

  127. Maybe?*

    Can you fail a background check if you listed a work project on your resume that was pro bono rather than paid?

    Spouse listed short-term pro bono project on resume in the same mix as other paid work (paid internships, etc.). He discussed project with interviewer (along with other projects) and, in retrospect, couldn’t remember if he mentioned that it was a pro bono project but did not lie and say that it was paid work, either.

    He got an offer, so they initiated the background check. The person doing the background check came back to ask about getting W-2s or something related to his work on the project–because they couldn’t verify him in the paid system but did learn from someone that it was voluntary. My spouse confirmed that the work was pro bono and directed them to the person he did the work for so that they could verify dates, etc.

    Just wondering if this is something that could cause the job offer to be pulled, or if it’s not likely since the project is relevant and real and there was no claim of it being a paid gig.

    1. Annony*

      I would think that so long as he didn’t make up a job title and list them as an employer he is probably fine. Also, a short term project is unlikely to have been the deciding factor when hiring him. Since he was able to put them in touch with someone who can verify it, it is probably fine.

  128. NewNameForThis*

    When should an employer be told about things their employee does outside work?

    This issue has been in my mind in connection with a situation one of my colleagues told me about. More details in a comment as it may be triggering (non-graphic references to child abuse)
    the TL:DR version is that a person was found by a court to have lied about a situation in their personal life, where the nature of their job might mean that they would have to deal with similar issues in their employment. Should the employer be told, and what should they do if they are?

    1. NewNameForThis*

      More detailed explanation.
      An individual (“X”) separates from their spouse. They make allegations claiming that their spouse abused their child, including claiming to witness one serious incident of abuse. Police find no evidence that any abuse took place and expressed concern that X may have ‘coached’ the child. Social Services found no evidence of abuse. In family court proceedings between X and their spouse, a court fund that the incident X claimed to have witnessed did not take place and that X lied. The Judge also found that X had tried to ‘coach’ the child to get hem to make direct allegations.
      The reason I started to think about whether X’s employer should have been informed, is that X works with children – think teachers aide or equivalent so it’s possible that they be in a position where a child might talk to them if they were experiencing abuse,or where they might have to report suspicions.
      (for clarity, this is not a current situation so I don’t have to make the decision whether to say anything, but I’m interested in how others would see this scenario

    2. RagingADHD*

      Unless X was found to have mistreated their child (or any other), I don’t think the sordid details of their custody battle are any of their employer’s business.

      There have been many cases where courts declared abuse allegations to be false, that were later shown to be true. So you don’t actually know that X lied. You just know they lost the case.

      If X is a mandatory reporter, throwing doubt on their credibility could easily lead to other children being left in harm’s way.

      I certainly don’t see why it’s the business of an unrelated third party to insert themselves in a situation that has absolutely nothing to do with them, based on nothing but gossip.

      1. Bagpuss*

        I wouldn’t class court findings as ‘gossip’
        And – surely the credibility issue is why there’s an argument the employer might need to know.Normally, you would assume that someone like a teacher or teacher’s aide, or other mandatory reporter is a credible source if they alert you to anything of concern a child has said. But X *isn’t* a credible source. They have lied and tried to get a child to lie, which could be very relevant.

        1. valentine*

          They have lied and tried to get a child to lie
          You don’t know this. Did the other parent get the child to lie about the abuse? Did everyone tell the child to please tell us because if Parent hurt you, they should Go to Jail? Did they say you won’t be in trouble, but the abusive parent has proved otherwise?

        2. RagingADHD*

          I don’t know where you live, but where I live, family court proceedings are not public. So anyone who is not a party to the case is dealing with gossip – and presumably it’s gossip from someone with an axe to grind because they were embroiled in an ugly custody battle.

          I can’t imagine why you feel so personally invested in trying to ruin the livelihood of a single parent that you’ve never even met, based on a third-hand story from a coworker.

          Even if X did lie, it’s no concern of yours, or of anyone else who wasn’t part of the case.

          If it were an issue of public concern, the court and/or social services had the standing to pursue it. If they didn’t, the world doesn’t need vigilante busybodies going around trying to get teachers fired over gossip.

  129. Anon for this just in case*

    I’m in college full time so I’ve been looking for a summer job (I have a job at a retail store that I’ve been at for five years during the school year atm but I really don’t want to work there over the summer.)

    I got offered a job as a residential counselor. It’s a program where hs kids take college classes and they need RAs basically. It’s ten weeks long and they pay for your transportation (place ticket) and meals and room, however you only get one day off every three weeks and it seems like it’s going to be 12 hour days. Like you have to check on the kids at midnight and also if any kid has problems you’re on call 24/7 so technically a kid could be waking you up at 2am every night if they needed. The pay is 3200 before taxes. I did the math and if you were working 12 hours days, that’s basically like getting paid 3 or 4 dollars a hour. Does that seem weird? Or is it because they pay for your room and food which you only need because you have to live on campus.

    Anyways, any thoughts anyone? I feel like that’s extremely low pay for what’s expected and not even one day off a week.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I was an RA when I was in school, and unless there’s a lot of required duties outlined that you could expand upon, my guess is you’re probably not going to be working straight through those 12 hour days. You’re going to mostly be hanging around to be on hand if someone needs you or sets their room on fire. Maybe sorting mail and being there for the general nonsense that can come from kids spending their first long stint away from home or with roommates.

      Since this is a summer thing with high school kids, I’m not sure if you’d be required to walk people to/from classes or plan activities for them in their downtime, but honestly that sounds way better than working retail. Plus if you’re living at home during the summer like I was during college, getting out of your parents’ house for ten weeks without paying rent sounds amazing. (Not a knock on your parents if this is your situation – I love my parents and they’re amazing, but it can be hard being used to freedom at college and then coming home and being essentially a kid again.)

      Again, this is based on my experience of being an RA in college, you saw the job description so you’d know best if it’s going to be 10 weeks of 12 hour days being a baby sitter, or if it’s going to be a lot of being on hand if needed but getting a lot of downtime otherwise. If it’s the latter, $3200 + plane tickets + food + housing isn’t a bad gig at all, you would have almost zero expenses for ten weeks.

      I’d see if you can reach out to people who’ve done this before to get some insight on what the role entails. (I found a lot of residence life higher ups were once the RAs themselves so they could even probably give you a good feel for the day to day life.)

      1. Anon for this just in case*

        Oh okay! Yeah put it that way it sounds way more normal. This is the first time I ever applied for anything like this so I’ve had no idea if this was normal or not. It sounded like on the phone interview when the kids were in classes, we had to run the office in four hour shifts (which isn’t that long) so maybe there would be a lot of free time. Maybe I should ask a few more questions?

        I guess the main thing that made me think it was going to be very long days is that we have to do check ins at midnight and then she mentioned that kids are free to wake us up in the middle of the night. Which obviously makes sense because if they need something, we are the adults there, but it made me worried about sleep.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          It never hurts to ask more questions! Things like, what does a typical day look like? Are you restricted to your room/building most of the time? Can you leave campus ever? What do weekends look like? Are you supposed to plan activities for the residents? What does the midnight room check entail? For this last one that might not even be too bad, it could just be make sure all the doors are closed and it’s quiet, but it’s good to check especially since you’re concerned. And for what it’s worth I never was woken up in the middle of the night by a resident my entire year. (No guarantees of course but it’s less of a big deal than you’re probably thinking.) Also maybe you have some late night duties, but do you have a specific start time in the morning or could you potentially sleep until 10 so it’s less of a big deal?

          Oh and based on my RA experience “run the office” means sitting in a room doing nothing but waiting if someone needs to pick up a package (tiny mailboxes so residents got a packing slip telling them to pick it up during office hours) or helping someone if they got locked out of their room. If I recall most of my office time was spent scrolling facebook, watching movies, or doing homework.

          I like Buttons’ idea of possibly taking an online class, this kind of set up could be perfect for it!

          1. Anon for this just in case*

            I asked some more questions over email to the director.

            So it seems like the start time is 8am every morning for a team meeting. If it’s your morning off you can just read and be in the area (where people can see you if they need something), if it’s not your morning you have a task to do: office duty (4 hours where you answer phones and do stuff), doctor (if anyone gets hurt in that time period you take them to the doctors office or ER), and there’s random floaters that have to patrol random areas. So not that bad task wise, I think.

            I guess I am a little concerned about the sleep. At midnight, you just have to check to make sure everyone is in their own rooms. The reason I’m concerned is because I’ve had really bad insomnia in the past. My current sleep schedule is going to bed at 10pm or 11pm and waking up at 6am in order to commute for classes. (My school is an hour away but it’s cheaper in my apartment then living on campus) but I get majorly sleep deprived during the week, I take a nap almost every day in the afternoon for an hour or two before I do homework and on the weekends I sleep in later.

            I guess honestly it would be hard to tell what it’s truly like until I tried it.

            I really appreciate your help and your (and everyones) answers, I don’t really have any adults or anyone irl to ask and all my friends were just kinda not helpful thinking it through wise.

            I looked at my schools online classes and didn’t see any that I needed for my major. The two classes I was going to try to take this summer aren’t offered online. However it’s not like I have to take them this summer in order to graduate on time.

            1. A Simple Narwhal*

              Happy to help! I can understand being worried about sleep, though if you’re normally 11-6, sleeping 12:30-7:30 is still the same time, just shifted back a bit. It will be up to you of course, but it’s not too too outrageously different.

              Also one thing to keep in mind about taking classes online is that you don’t have to take them from your college. I took online classes through a few local community colleges and then transferred the credits over. Granted they weren’t high level courses, but as long as you check with your school ahead of time to confirm they’ll accept the transfer credits, you’re made in the shade.

              There was also the added benefits of it being cheaper through the community college, and they were courses I knew I wasn’t going to be great in (psychology and sociology, etc when I was a business major) so I got the credits for taking them without having to worry about them affecting my gpa.

              Good luck with everything, keep us posted!

    2. Zephy*

      Will this gig give you any more useful experience you could leverage in getting a job in your chosen field than the retail position would? If your field is anything related to education, youth-oriented social services, or even if you’re aiming for pretty much any kind of management, this could be a good opportunity for you. If nothing else, you’ll get some great stories out of it, most likely.

      Can you afford to take this gig instead of your regular job? i.e., I assume that $3200 is for the entire summer; is that less than you’d make working your retail job for 12 weeks (even taking into account gas/food/whatever other bills you normally have), and if so, can your budget take the hit? Or will you have to live on stolen ketchup packets and free pizza from events for a while once you’re back at school?

      You mentioned plane tickets; is this position at a school you might want to attend in the future, like for grad school? If it is, that’s a good opportunity to check the place out.

      1. Anon for this just in case*

        It doesn’t have to do with my field but neither does retail.

        I think I would be making less though because after taxes I usually make around 1300 every month in the summer. This summer I was going to try to find a tip based job and hopefully make more. I live in a tourist town and my brother works on the food truck in the summer where he makes around 500-600 a week in tips which is more a month.

        I guess my main concern was my original plan was to find a tip based job and take two classes this summer which I can’t do if I do this job, but this job offered first and the tip based jobs aren’t really hiring until closer to the summer even though I applied at two so I don’t know whether to hold out for one or not.

        1. Zephy*

          Okay, then would not taking those two classes over the summer–either not at all, or taking them at another time–impact your graduation timeline? I think you should take the RA position, unless you literally can’t afford to.

          I once had a contract job working with high school students – not quite the same setup as this RA position you’re considering, but it had the long hours, low pay, and proximity to/responsibility for teenagers. I think I got better stories out of it than I would have if I had gotten a job at Shirt-Folding Store or something along those lines. Both social, “here’s a funny thing that happened at an old job” kind of stories, and the kinds of stories you can tell in interviews – handling potentially awkward or sensitive conversations, delegating responsibility, taking on leadership roles. It’s made my resume stand out to hiring managers in a good way. Mine was a 10-month contract, while this is only 10 weeks for you, so that last effect might be smaller. But, especially if most of the rest of your jobs have been retail and foodservice and the like, this sort of “wildcard” could show flexibility if and when you do start applying to other kinds of jobs.

          1. Anon for this just in case*

            I will graduate in two years if I take 16 credits every semester. The reason I was going to try to take those two classes this summer was just to not have to take 16 credits every semester (like a cushion if ever needed).

            Hmm that’s a good point about the resume, my resume so far is one year of food service and five years as a manager in retail (but lower management so nothing too exciting). I prob will end up taking the job mainly because I can’t deal w another summer in my store.

    3. LizB*

      I’ve worked as an overnight camp counselor before and got paid a daily rate, which ended up being like $2-3/hr if you divided it out — that kind of structure, and the one you’ve been offered, are pretty usual for this specific field. They’re definitely expecting you to mentally factor in the “all my food, rent, and utilities costs are free for ten weeks” when considering whether the pay is worth it — for some people, that could be a significant savings, but it really depends on your situation. And it’s fine to decide that the pay structure is not gonna work for you… just because it’s typical doesn’t mean it’s right or right for you.

      However, one day off every three weeks is not enough. My camp gave us basically a day and a half off every week, plus a two-hour break every day where we were guaranteed not to have to work. You most likely won’t be actively doing stuff every day for 12 hours, but I would ask to see a schedule of a typical day before you accept the offer. They should have no problem providing that. If you’re really mostly working a chunk in the morning and a chunk in the evening with the whole middle of the day free to do your own thing (barring emergency student needs), that’s a very different situation than if you’re leading programming or dealing with admin work throughout the day on a consistent basis.

      1. Anon for this just in case*

        Yeah they said one day every three weeks so I would end up having three days off total. I guess that was the part that I was worried about because 7 days straight for three weeks is a long time. I wasn’t sure if that was how camps worked or not.

        Good to know it’s normal for this kind of job though (the 3$ an hour kinds thing). I guess for me room, food and transportation doesn’t really save me money because it’s not like I can give up my apartment for ten weeks while I’m there. I guess I would save gas money though.

    4. Buttons*

      It wont be 12 hours straight. Can you also take a summer class while there or take a summer online class?

      1. Anon for this just in case*

        That’s a great idea actually. I didn’t even think of taking an online class. I looked at the dates of my summer classes and just figured if I was gone, I would just have to not take any this summer.

    5. Alex*

      It isn’t clear to me what your responsibilities are at this job–are you just supposed to live there and generally be around, with specific check in times, but basically have your time to yourself unless a kid needs you? Or are you expected to be organizing a lot of activities and needing to be working constantly those 12 hours? Because that will feel very different regarding having days off.

      I was an overnight camp counselor when I was a late teen and got paid MUCH less than that but I loved the job. I did get more time off–I was on duty 132 hours a week. I got up at 7am with the kids, and didn’t have any real breaks during the day until about 9pm when they went to bed, and even then we’d have a staff meeting once a week plus I had to plan out activities and do other work after 9pm. And then I went to go sleep in the same room with the kids. But it didn’t feel like…sitting in an office watching the clock.

      If you think this job would be something you’d enjoy, it can be a great experience. But if you’re just doing it to have a job, it might not be the right fit for you, unless it is something where you have much of your day to yourself (even if you are on duty) and can work on taking online classes or doing other things you’d like to do.

  130. Workerbee*

    Thank you to everyone who commented on my post last week about my ridiculously meeting-heavy org! I kept receiving an error when trying to post on last week’s thread, (which I believe is #comment-2833435), so I’m here.

    After posting, I had more meetings, and then the weekend came as a blessed relief. Here I am after another week of meetings; a two-hour meeting just ended. I’m grateful to be remote today.

    I really appreciated all the advice, and am going to employ some tactics. I’ve started to skip peer-meetings when I sincerely feel they are unnecessary, but there seems to be an emotional impact when I decline one of those, with many hurt and puzzled comments. It’s weird.

    And when I am remote, I definitely work on other things during these calls, but lately I’ve been feeling that I shouldn’t bother (which is a dangerous thing to feel).

    Sadly, I think I will be looking elsewhere once I get close to a full year here. Most of the people are truly great and I am happy to have met them. But being misaligned with the company culture everyone else is comfortable with brings its own toxicity that I don’t want to carry into my next job.

    1. Frankie*

      I’ve been on both ends–super meeting-heavy cultures suck, and truthfully, there’s probably little that you as an individual can do about it, unless this is an overall feeling others share and you can band together.

      That said, I have a teammate who has decided that they are just going to decline smaller meetings without asking about their purpose, action items, etc., which feels kind of aggressive to me. So if you’re encountering hurt feelings, maybe there’s a way to start conversations?

      I sympathize, though–I left one job because we went from a very efficient, nimble low-meeting culture to a meetings-all-day-every-day culture. I need time to get my work done.

    2. NoLongerYoung*

      Super heavy meeting culture, and I’m a bit of a SME and known for being able to connect the dots; supposedly very important (Ha ha) “in case” there’s something relevant to my area. Usually not, I’ve discovered.
      A few general things I do.
      1) Is there a reason, and solid agenda? Who is coming? (does it even look like they bothered to plan). Is it an inform? Is it a “Brainstorming session?”
      Watching for… is someone too lazy to do their due diligence and has invited 50 people because they can’t figure out who needs to attend? Are they just trying to CYA?
      2) If there is no agenda, I ask for one. that’s the first warning sign.
      3) IF there does not appear to be a reason to attend the whole thing (ie, oh, just reviewing progress on your projects; departments A-Z; but everyone comes for all 3 hours….and it’s not for MY boss/grandboss/ powers that be, but someone who is just gathering status for a status report?)
      * I say I am double booked, my report will take no more than 15 minutes. If they can publish an agenda, and give me a slot, I will step out of my other meeting, and call in for that 15 minutes.
      * I try to get the first or last slot. Likely it will be poorly run enough that they will not faciliate crisply, and I’ll be hanging, listening to someone else talk through my slot…. and having to stay on longer.

      2) My direct report or my manager and I tag team – if we are both invited, we decide if we both must be there. (is it political – must go? is it a great learning opportunity – something we will need to know at any point in the future? Or…not, and if we are NOT there we won’t be dragged in). Then one of us attends. Provides cover for the other. Promises to contact on teams if we have to jump on. Or just be available for questions on the side. 90% of the time, manager just takes the action item to find any answer she doesn’t know.

      3) If needed (I am trying to actually get work done during the day), I decline politely, but let them know that I will read the summary meeting notes (warning sign number 2, “oh, we don’t do those”) and. follow up on any action item for me, as noted on them.

      4) I do skim ppt decks attached in advance, or after.

      5) If it is political (I look and see who is invited on the “to” not just the “cc” and I check the “tracking” in outlook to see who has accepted)… I attend the first one in the series (the horrible standing meetings, where you have to show up every 2 weeks or once a month for really big group meetings), and then tag team (see item 2) when I can, attend when I have to.

      I have actually pushed back on several, as in “no, I do not need to attend – project manager from our group is already attending, she can present our status report and bring back any action items for our group” or “No, X, we are working on priority project (name drop) and 5 of us can’t come for 3 hours to a meeting with no agenda for a status report revamp discussion on “your” group’s proposed new format.”

      I’ve had program managers that had 50 people on an “meeting” every week, for over an hour, to hear weekly report outs so he could do HIS status report upwards, and didn’t understand that it was not a good use of my time (I had a 5 minute report). He – and most of the others – had very little to do. I’d send it via email and then drop in for the first 15 minutes once a month.

      But you have to be truly busy and enough work credibility to push back, though. I would use the other techniques – including the ultra polite “I am so sorry, I am double booked” – until you get a feel for the environment.
      I do, however, try to book myself for specific “focus” slots (giving them my project names), so that I “am” truly double booked. I owe it to myself to do a solid job on the things “I” am being paid to deliver – and not (in some cases) to help others fill their time or help them do their thinking.

      I also, usually, push back on 1 hour 1:1s for “learn about your area” random invites. (I look them up in the directory and see who they are, first). I generally push for 30 minute intro slots and say I will have more time later in the week – and make time if they need it.

      I also have picked up the phone, or set up a chat in Teams, and just said – “as a preliminary, I want to make sure I come with the info you need from me – can you help me understand what you most need from me right now?”

      Hope this isn’t too late for some of these hints to help. You need to get a reading on your corporate culture. Sometimes -you do just have to work from home and dial in. Or ask yourself – if you had the flu, what would happen if you weren’t at this meeting? Then listen to yourself. Is it filler, do you learn, or are you needed to contribute?

      Alternatively – this is your culture again – sometimes you need to go in person, and be present, and engaged. I once spent 2 weeks preparing a really good presentation on a national initiative – and half stepped out of the room to take calls, 1/2 in the room worked on their laptops, and a few listened. One (Truthfully) told me it was great, but after that much work, it was hard to feel that I was appreciated. I did not volunteer again. So if you do go, pick your meetings and be present and engaged. IF the meeting is worth it. I try to remember that feeling.

  131. Cat Mom*

    Work instituted a 10 weeks paid leave (state based due to change in law) plus work’s 2 paid weeks of parental leave=12 weeks total paid maternity leave, should I need it next year. Followed by hub’s 12 week paternal paid leave.

    ***Question: Has the presence or absence of a comprehensive parental/maternal/paternal leave policy swayed you to have/not have kids? Did it play a huge factor? Did your parental leave work policy make your life a lot easier/harder if you had one?

    For us, it’s like a sign from the universe but I also want to see where the company is in a few months due to contract proposal development efforts underway.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, but my employer suddenly (and temporarily) deciding to cover “some” infertility coverage was a big influence.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’m still a few years out from kids but I know I’ve looked at the parental leave policies while at past companies and noted that I probably didn’t want to still be working there when it was time.

      So no it didn’t affect the yay or nay decision for kids, but it definitely affected how long I thought I could work at certain places.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      On a personal level and in my circle, no it’s never been a thing that we’ve thought about on that level. Nobody has paid leave options in my world, now we have it on a state wide level at least, so I know people are taking advantage of it but i haven’t heard anything about “Oh now I can have a kid now.” level. Because it’s still only a small, very short time in the scheme of a child’s life and bringing them into this world to really weight that heavily upon.

      Student debt crippling them is more of the reason they’re not having kids for later and later, 12 weeks of pay isn’t going to fix that for them :(

    4. DataGirl*

      I was really luck to have my kids while living in a European country with a very good maternity/paternity leave policy. I stayed home with my first for 9 months then went back to work half time, worked half time until my second was born then stayed home until she was 2 years old (when we moved to the US and I went back to college). It was really valuable to me to have that time with my kids when they were little, and I think I would have been miserable if I had been in the US and had to go back to work after a very short time. One of the reasons I never had a third kid was that I couldn’t afford to stay home with them like that in the US. So yes, it did play a factor in my decisions.

    5. Natalie*

      It wouldn’t have affected my decision to have kids in the first place (obviously there are so many things to think about beyond the initial maternity leave) but it would definitely influence my choice of where to work while I’m having those kids. And it would mitigate some stressful aspects, that certainly affect me as an employee as well as on an individual level.

    6. Carlottamoose*

      Not a factor for us at all, so far, but we both have good paying jobs and savings, which affords us some freedom of choice, although thankfully, we both will get paid time off (4 mos. for me and 3 mos. for husband). Parental benefits (health-wise) did, however, factor into my switching my medical coverage to my spouse’s, as his company medical insurance covers significant money towards fertility where mine did not, which as happy events have turned out, we didn’t need…anyways, all to say is that paid parental leave is a great benefit, but I think whether it factors into decision-making depends a lot on individual/family financial situations and flexibility with your managers/team at work.

    7. Expat*

      I am considering parental leave as a factor in the timing, but not in the yes/no decision itself. I’m considering moving back to the US but would rather have my kids abroad because of the parental leave policies here.

  132. CA Freelancer*

    Longtime reader, occasional commenter here.
    I’m an editorial freelancer in California who’s trying to determine whether it’s better to become an LLC or sign on as a part-time employee in order to retain my largest clients.
    Is anyone else here also in this position? I’d be really interested in hearing any thoughts you’d care to share.
    Thanks.

  133. Chronic Overthinker*

    Need some dumb advice here. Is it appropriate to use my work phone/work hours to schedule dental appointments? I’ve been having no luck trying to get in touch with them during my scheduled breaks and we’ve been playing phone tag for almost a week and a half. I don’t want to get in trouble with the boss, but I need to get my dental stuff scheduled asap.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, it’s totally appropriate in general. Specifically with your boss? I don’t know. That’d vary from workplace culture to workplace culture.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve only heard of this being a problem with really strict policies and borderline toxic places, like if you’re in a call center, don’t do it. But if it’s a regular job where you are not answering nonstop calls and tying up a line is a big deal for workflow, etc. It usually is okay.

      But I’d ask someone around you if that’s okay if you’re really worried. I’ve always used my deskphone for most things. Unless they may call during off-hours, then I use my cell. Is it OK to be on your cell usually in the office? I’d opt for a cell just for the off chance they try to call back and you have an extension they need to punch in or something?

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        Biggest issue is I’m the receptionist, so tying up the work phone is iffy as I need to be available to take calls whenever. The office isn’t non-stop busy, but I would hate if I was attempting to make an appointment and a call or two comes in. Also, I have the most front-facing office ever. It is an open lobby with a couple of conference rooms so it might not be the best to take a cell call. I guess I’m just frustrated that I cannot get a hold of anyone during MY scheduled break, which also happens to be the typical “lunch break” time for every office ever. >.<

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          A receptionist position, especially in a a lobby area makes a lot of sense why you’re worried about that. So I do think you should ask the boss what they prefer.

          Just say “I’m having a heckuva time getting ahold of my dentist, is it okay if I use the front desk phone for this kind of thing? It shouldn’t tie up the phone for too long but the best way for them to reach me is to call at their convenience because you know…dentists *sigh*. I didn’t want to assume it’s okay because of my position and wanted to run the possible optics issue by you for the go ahead or if you prefer that I keep dealing with it with our phone tag game on my cellphone?” This is a legitimate kind of thing to ask about in that position. Better safe than sorry. My bosses wouldn’t care even when I was in lower positions and in a heavy phones rotation. But my bosses are special creatures so I don’t always want to go off that for guiding others!

          1. Jedi Squirrel*

            If you use this approach, they may even offer to cover for you for a few minutes so you can make the call at a different time. It all depends on your boss.

    5. nep*

      As others have suggested, I would run it by my boss, explaining how tough it’s been to contact the dental office.

  134. I'll be at the Cantina*

    Anyone else seeing/experiencing racism from Coronavirus where they work/live?
    Interviewed for a new job, and was specifically asked how I would treat Asian customers in light of this outbreak.

    Apparently people already working there have been rude to Chinese/Chinese -looking customers, and have been written up and warned. Not sure what exactly they did, but it sounded like stupid rude stuff that they should know would get them in trouble.

    I’ve also seen people act rude and squirrely, at my husband’s job. And it isn’t like the customers in question are frothing at the mouth, hacking up a lung, and wearing ice packs to control a raging fever, while queuing up to board a plane!

    They are either Citizens of the US who’ve never been to China, or have been here for months and would not have been exposed.

    I find it Sooooo rich that the ones complaining the most, are the a$$holes that show up to work on their death bed, then spend their day bragging about what a good example they are setting between the sneezing.

    Even after they’ve been told to stay home by a medical professional because they have a confirmed case of the Flu. Even when they have plenty of sick leave/work from home privileges.

    The others are ones that claim they aren’t anti-vaxxers (vaccines are good for third world children) but refuse to schedule the necessary appointments because “Natural immunity is best, you know.” Until school threatens to bar their kids.

    All of whom go straight to HR and claim harassment if you ask why they don’t go home if all they are going to do is lay in the conference room all day, or try to avoid them when they tell you they suspect their kids have Lice/Chicken pox (but dropped them off at school anyway hoping no one else will notice.)

    Like I said it is these people.

    What the Hell.

    1. anon4this*

      I mean Lice/Chicken Pox compared to the Coronavirus is not really apples to apples. We actually don’t know enough information (yet) to say how long the virus has been around (which of course can be earlier than the discovery date) nor do we know the full global impact of this yet.
      “They are either Citizens of the US who’ve never been to China, or have been here for months and would not have been exposed.” How would you know this exactly?
      I’m against racism of course, but it sounds like you may be confounding some issues (anti-vaxxers, xenophobia, the hypocrisy of the wealthy, etc.) that are a bit separate from the (irrational) fear of contracting a deadly airborne virus.
      Good luck in your job search, you sound very kind and like you would treat people fairly in customer service facing role.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        The thing is that there has been a lot of crossover between racist/xenophobic fear and Coronavirus hysteria. People assuming that anyone who looks Asian is a carrier for it, things like that. That’s not confounding, that’s a thing that’s happening.

      2. I will be at the Cantina*

        Sorry I cannot address everything in your comment for fear of outing myself
        and my organization.

        Forgive me for standing on my Soapbox for awhile longer. The people I am referring to have no qualms about spreading infectious disease and downplaying the risk they pose to others when they are sick. The Flu kills people. Chicken pox kills/disables people. I used those two because people forget that, and don’t always think those illnesses are a big deal.

        These coworkers will break the rules when it suits them: sending their kids to school when they are contagious, coming to work contagious, not getting their flu shot because they will deal with it (by coming to work) if they get the flu. Having the nerve to complain about their kid being sent home for “just having Lice” because it inconvenienced them in some way, when the school is trying to prevent a full on outbreak. Complaining about their Civil Liberties because it is harder to get out of the Government schedule for childhood vaccinations in this State.

        All the while not giving a damn who THEY infect (babies, immunocompromised, elderly) or the protocols they will do their best to evade when they are sick, because according to them: “thinning the herd is part of nature.”

        I have had coworkers who have done each of the above things, and who have “ratted” me to the boss when they saw my car parked at the drugstore when I was “supposedly” out sick. Apparently, if I am well enough to be driven to the drugstore to sign for my prescription, I am well enough to come to work.

        So then after all this, to see these same people act ugly because the customer in question appears to be Asian… and knowing they are only behaving this way because they believe it’s as simple as Chinese = Sickness, Foreigner = Bad?

        They shouldn’t get to have it all ways. Anyway that is it for now. Off my Soapbox.

        Thank you, by the way for the last thing you said if you still mean it, it was kind of you and I appreciate it. Unfortunately, it has been a real struggle to be nice to everyone lately; now that that is off my chest, I can aspire to have more patience with everyone.

  135. Zephy*

    Wheels are turning on my transition into a new role within my team–slowly, painfully, but they are in motion! I’ll be getting a title change, from a title so vague as to be meaningless to a title that other organizations in my industry will recognize and understand, plus a nice pay bump.

    I had to take this weird test as part of the process – not really a skills assessment, not quite a personality test. It was a mix of general customer-service best practices, which read like one person’s philosophy on the subject, like I was supposed to have read a specific book or something to know what the right answers were supposed to be; inane “ethics” questions that were too broad with answers that were too narrow; middle-school-level math – simple algebra and percentages (one question asked how many times a day a clock’s hands overlap, and apparently 22 was the right answer?); and a handful of questions that were basically industry-specific trivia – what does this acronym stand for, define this term. If I were an external candidate taking this test without any of the context or knowledge of how the office actually operates that I have, I’d have some concerns about working here, if these “WWYD?” questions are supposed to be representative of the office culture – they absolutely aren’t, which is probably why I got a lot of them wrong.

    I’m excited to be promoted but this process is both bizarre and glacially slow.

  136. SomebodyElse*

    Anyone else beyond done with this week? Honestly it’s been so slow and painful, all my coworkers are grumpy and squirrelly (I’m no exception to that). Every task has been hard and annoying.

    I’m just done… and I have about 2 hours left… blah!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve been over it since yesterday. But it’s not slow thankfully. Just painful, our systems are glitching every which way and we keep getting hit by those “Never pleased” customers who of course, get their shipments damaged by UPS and they refuse to accept that UPS did it…never happened in transit! Nope! I’ve got gremlins packaging these things and their dirty claws are def doing these imperfections on purpose i tell you!

      Argh, and this is west coast time so closer to 5 hours left here!

    3. nep*

      Well, I got a call on Monday about an interesting prospect with an organisation whose mission really resonates with me…so this week has been much better than most in the recent past.
      Hope you’ll get a break and be able to rest after what sounds like a really crazy week.

    4. Jedi Squirrel*

      Honestly, this has been a “THERE ARE…..FOUR!…..LIGHTS!” kind of week.

      Can’t wait to go home and open a bottle or two of wine.

  137. LizzE*

    I have a question for people who have been internal candidates for a job opening at their company, or people who have hired internal candidates. I am up for a position at my company, which would be one level above my role now. Since I have already done work for this role already and have a lot of knowledge of the organization, I do feel confident that I can make the case for my candidacy (not saying I will get the role, but I feel good about how I can present myself).

    The one thing I am struggling with is deciding what questions I ask. I plan to ask the hiring manager (who is already my boss) about challenges, expectations and defining success for the role; however, since I know about organizational culture, I know most of what the role entails (esp. day-to-day) and the working style of the team, I am worried I am not going to have enough questions. When you already have a lot of insider knowledge when applying for a job, what types of questions do you ask?

    1. OtterB*

      You could maybe use a tailored version of the classic “What differentiates someone who is great in the role?” and ask what differentiates someone who makes a smooth transition from your position into the new one, as opposed to things that make people struggle.

    2. Becky*

      I’m particularly interested in what it’s like to work for the manager so I have asked about their approach and what sort of person works well for them

    3. nym*

      I did this recently. One of my questions was, “I’m familiar with the role, and you’re familiar with my work, since I’ve been doing it for several months. Do you have any concerns about my ability to transition full-time to this new role, or skills gaps you’d recommend I work on closing?”

  138. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I want to demolish our dependency on phones one day.

    I keep sending over detailed, bullet pointed even, emails with questions. But everyone wants to “talk on the phone” about it instead. No. I just want my questions answered. If you call me, am I supposed to just absorb it? I’m supposed to relay on my memory? I use emails so I can refer back to it and have a paper trail. When you jump on a phone, I have to then take notes and things get lost and things go sideways.

    I am impossibly “old” and “young” at the same time. I’m over here fighting the “system” of technology when I deal with a lot of computer illiterate folks. I don’t expect someone doing labor to understand a computer and I’ve seen some driven to tears over timeclock crap. I almost [almost] miss tallying up physical punch clocks.

    This move and transition will either murder me where I stand or make me a heckauva lot stronger, I think. Probably little murder of the soul, little stronger, lot more cantankerous [if that’s possible]!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Also follow up to my “sales rep who wants to chat about sh*t that I’m procuring for another person” whine. I just washed my hands of this possible vendor. One just sent me over everything speedy AF and no questions, bless them. While this one was like “oh okay, no worries, no call needed.” and then responded with “oh but can we chat about your software.” NO. Bye. I’ll find another option, write off the possible 20k sale you lost in your diary tonight.

      1. Beth Anne*

        I’m with you I would rather do everything over email. I hate talking on the phone plus then I have a written trail so I can easily refer back and remember things.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I just had this person call me…then pull up my email…and answer my questions.

          *blinks* So I just have to email myself the responses to have that trail. Now I feel like I’m doing 2x the work.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I have found that some people (I think a small percent) really don’t do well with e-mail. Some seem to need to talk to figure out what they think. Some can’t express themselves clearly via e-mail. I prefer e-mail too, but sometimes the only way to communicate well with some people is by picking up the phone.

    2. Laura H.*

      I’m with you on part of it.

      I can somewhat retain info passed thru phone, but I usually use it for short convos or contacting my bank- those tale a while and come with a bit of data that I’ll want to retain usually.

      What doesn’t help is that I use my dominant hand to hold the phone… guess what I use to write with? Yeah problematic…

      The design of the basic handheld phone (office, cell, those old ones where it’s just the earpiece you hold to your ear and you’re tethered to the wall) hasn’t changed in years and could do to

      That or we invent a head accessory that can hold your phone to your ear…

      Email however I have a record of things and I like that I can go back and reference things at my own leisure/ as needed.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I like phones for things like you mentioned. If it’s a generalized transaction, I’m cool with calling [though I prefer live-chat options if they’re available!]

        But when I’m doing a major purchase, of a lot of working parts, so I have a break down of like say 5 questions, I’d like you to just answer them…

        Or when people can respond with FAQ or other details to pass along to answer those detailed questions is great.

        But I’m in the process of just gathering proposals. For large scale projects. That require a lot of retaining here. So it’s why I’m like “If we typed this all out, it would save ME more time in the end and you’d be more likely to get a sale…”

        Also email is a continued conversation. This is a longer term project. I’m doing the research in this case. And there will be follow up questions once I forward the research on to the person who’s going to make the co-decision with me.

        I feel like it’s part of the ploy in sales that you can’t leave something sitting, you have to be engaged to seal it immediately. That’s not happening, it’s never going to happen, I sleep on everything that’s going to be a part of my entity for the next umpteen years. They’re not selling snacks or something easy to just do a test run of. It’s a commitment, I’m not rushing into marriage, I sure won’t rush in picking my time keeping system!

        1. Chaordic One*

          So it’s why I’m like “If we typed this all out, it would save ME more time in the end and you’d be more likely to get a sale…”

          This is a part that really needs to be emphasized. Details mentioned in a conversation are likely to be forgotten and/or overlooked.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Your situation is what headsets and speakerphone are made for. And headphones/earbuds with microphones. I very rarely hold the phone to my ear these days. There are plenty of accessories out there that can help you.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Speakerphones are the worst and create their own set of issues!

          But they do have headset adapters, that’s for sure! I glossed over that in my crybaby whine fest.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            I was replying to Laura H., with her handset concerns. :) But yes, if part of your issue is not having your hands free, you should definitely use a headset every time you pick up the phone.

    3. Turtlewings*

      I hate talking on the phone So Much just on a personal level, but professionally too, I want that paper trail, I want to be able to type some words into my email search box and find the information! My email is basically my external brain drive these days. I have one coworker, a very sweet older lady, who insists on *walking to my office from the next building over* to answer my questions instead of just replying to the darn email. Drives me BONKERS.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      I’m with you – I want a paper trail. So if they call me to answer my questions (yes, I hate that, too!) I will type the answers into the e-mail and send it again asking them to confirm that I have it all correct. And if they don’t answer, I will send a follow-up (after a proper interval) to say if they don’t answer by [date/time] I will assume the answers are correct and proceed accordingly.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Ooooh this sounds delightfully aggressive in a way I was contemplating but thought different of =X

  139. Lookingforwork*

    Last year I lost my job due to my mental health. I took about a year off to get my mental health in order. Now I’m trying to get a job doing admin/clerical work. I can get interviews for jobs but after the interview, I keep getting ghosted by employers. I keep getting asked why I was off for a year and I’m honest and say that I had health problems that I needed to sort out before I could work again. Is this hurting my chances for employment? What should I say?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Part of it is that admin/clerical work is something that has a high amount of applicants, so it’s easy to be squeaked by and it’s not personal in that way.

      I don’t think you’re answering incorrectly.

      Some subconscious bias though is always involved with even a short year sabbatical like that, it’s making people think “will they need another one of those any time soon…” which sucks and isn’t right but it’s going to push people with other applicants with a steady history in front of them just to nudge you out if you have the same experience.

      I hope the next one is the one that gives you an offer and it’s a great place to get back into the workforce with. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this nonsense and dog&pony kind of show that is rebounding from health issues bring upon us.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      How honest are you being about your health problems?
      While we need more open discussion on mental health, if you are being specific about it being mental health it could be the problem. If you are doing this, go with a more generic “unfortunately due to a health issue I was unable to work. The treatment I was prescribed is working well so I’m ready to return to the workforce”.

      Maybe also start with looking for part-time work or temp/contract work. More place might be willing to give you a chance if they have an easier out or set time frame and you get a few newer items to add to your resume so that the year off isn’t the most recent thing.

  140. Rachel*

    How do you stay motivated at work when you know there is a good chance you could lose your job soon. Without getting into nitty-gritty we know layoffs are coming after are company was sold. I don’t have faith that the company will keep me on because they have still not brought be on full time after I have asked bosses so I still don’t have benefits and I feel like its a sign that they don’t care about keeping me around. But I don’t want to start doing a bad job but it’s just hard to work to keep the company going if you don’t know how long you will be there.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It’s been said on here to treat a job you’re no longer invested in as a stepping stone. What can you still do in this job that will help you get the next job?

      Finish projects
      Put something in your portfolio
      Save company some money
      Organize something
      Host an event, tradeshow, etc
      Get training or a certification
      Basically, get your ducks in a row and secure your references, work samples and the like.

    2. tangerineRose*

      Work so you have good things to put on your resume, good references, and so if you don’t keep your job, they’ll wish you were still there.

  141. Urdnot Bakara*

    Yesterday, I found out that I am getting a promotion and a nice raise. Yay, right? However, with this promotion, my status changes from non-exempt to exempt. I’m not entirely sure why, because the promotion is basically a title change but as far as I know my job description and responsibilities are the same. I don’t have any direct reports. I also checked my pay history, and my new salary is actually about $2000 less than I earned last year with overtime. The status change isn’t coming with any increased benefits.

    My question is this–can I ask why my status has been changed and potentially ask them to change it back? If not, can I counter and ask for a slightly better raise to make up for what I won’t be earning in overtime? If so, how do I determine what a reasonable amount to ask for is? I’m having a hard time deciding what to do so any advice you all can offer would be great.

    1. DataGirl*

      I think it’s reasonable to ask why it is being changed, and for them to reconsider the salary given the loss of overtime pay.

      1. Turtlewings*

        Agreed — and double-check that you actually do legally count as exempt. Plenty of employers misunderstand (or pretend to misunderstand) the requirements for that.

    2. Margaret*

      Absolutely reasonable to ask. At my employer virtually everyone moves from non-exempt to exempt (very specific steps in title/position that people move along), and the general rule is that you total compensation – including overtime – for the last year you were hourly, becomes is considered the base salary for your raise going into the first year being exempt. I’m sure there might be extenuating circumstances where they’d adjust from that, but generally if you anticipate working the same total hours as exempt, you’ll be making at least the same you were last year.

  142. Nacho*

    What do you do if people are giving feedback about you to their boss, but not you or your boss?

    I was recently promoted to a quality position for customer service agents. I listen to people’s calls, and give them feedback on them. When I give feedback to one particular team (out of the 3 I work with), they’ll acknowledge it to my face with a short “OK.” but then turn around and complain in length to their team leader about me, which she then tells me about in our weekly meetings. Technically I don’t report to their boss, though I’m also not her peer.

    How do I convince them to give me their feedback instead of just complaining behind my back?

    1. Workerbee*

      Did their team leader require them to elevate all concerns to her so that she can bring them up as part of your weekly meetings? That’s my first thought.

      My second is, what are the complaints about, are they legitimate, fixable, just part of the job, etc.?

  143. Jason*

    Hi, Jason. This isn’t something that this forum is able to handle here, but there are people who are trained to help you. Please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, where you can reach a trained crisis worker 24/7: 800-273-8255. They will help. – Alison

  144. Beth Anne*

    Has anyone used Canva to create a resume/portfolio? I’ve been looking at some of the templates and they look really nice. But I do know that PDF’s are really readable so that may be a bad idea.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I haven’t; does it cost money? I was thinking about switching mine to Wix and signed up, but I can’t find a template I like. Mine is on Clippings.me right now but it’s not the best and I’m limited to only 10 things.

    2. nep*

      I’ve created a resume on there (free). It looks really nice, but I am unsure about using these templates as opposed to just a simple Word doc. Thus far I’ve sent out only the simple black and white no-columns format in Word or PDF. A friend/mentor currently has both versions of my resume to review–as she’s in my field more or less, I’m asking her what would be best.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      YMMV, and I’m sure it’s somewhat industry and resume-reader specific, but I prefer the most basic format that you can use to get your information across. I occasionally get fancy Word formats (and used them once or twice myself), and I think it’s almost a hurdle to overcome with me as the reader. The last person sort of seemed more flash than substance due to the content and format of this resume, and then he turned out to be 180 degrees different in his interview. He had a personal contact with our former dept. manager, so his resume wasn’t a deal breaker to get that interview as if it had come in via applicant tracker.

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      My supervisor showed me one she made with canva. I hated it. It says “no substance,” and “I put lipstick on a pig,” to me. Maybe for a creative field?

  145. Me--perpetually over it*

    For F*ck’s Sake: A Rant

    Stop asking for taped video interviews, especially before you even get to a phone screen. They’re nerve-wracking and unnecessary. You can’t get any sense of a person with only two video and one written questions anyway. WTF is even up with that? Just look at my damn portfolio. That’s why it exists. I am not jumping through that particular hoop ever again.

    The place I really wanted to work for, the one that rejected me by phone (ugh) after the interview, still has the exact same job post up. They could have hired me, paid me what I’m worth, and we would both be benefiting. But no, they apparently don’t think a person with experience who actually WANTED the entry-level job, and told them why, was worth choosing. I may be new to your field, but I’m not new to this work. Treat me right and I work damn hard.

    To top it off, I HAD to get a haircut yesterday, as I have not had one in three months and I need to look polished. The older woman who did the trim did a great job of keeping my very expensive original cut intact and she was nice, but got dang, was she a rough shampooer. Ow, ow, ow.

    Maybe I should just shave my head and beg on a street corner. Clearly, no one is going to look at me because I am never going to work again. >:(

    /fin

    1. My Brain Is Exploding*

      You just got a nice haircut. Don’t shave your head. Anyway, it’s not you, it’s them! For all you know they forgot to remove the ad or are planning to hire the boss’s secretary’s niece but have to make it look legit. Be kind to yourself, and get rid of the negative thoughts (easy to say, right?) and keep on with the list of how great you are!! And I’m sorry, that sucks. (If this is who it think it is, you give good advice here, so what would you say to someone who was in your position?)

  146. Manon*

    I have a meeting on Monday to discuss the possibility of the (unpaid) internship I’ve been in since last summer turning into a part time job for the remainder of the semester.

    I’m super excited, but a little out of my depth. Does anyone have advice for good questions to ask beyond the basics like hours and how my responsibilities would change? And would it be appropriate to negotiate on wages if what they offer is below what I would expect?

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Those are both good questions. I think it is also a good time to ask for feedback on anything they would like to see you change.
      As far as wages, I think you can ask if there is wiggle room. But you need to do your homework on what is a reasonable rate for the job in your area. And of course, point out what you bring to the table!

      Good luck and congrats!

  147. I shall return anon*

    Rant: I hate being a manager. I hate people’s stupid, petty complaints and trying to tactfully manage personalities so as not to hurt their feelings when they express (or don’t express) their complaints. I hate that a group of well-educated adults turns into a bunch preteens when stuck in an office together. And most of all, I hate that as a single woman I’m now stuck being a manager for the rest of my life because there are no jobs that pay what I’m making that don’t involve managing people.

    1. higher_ed_anon*

      I’m contemplating a return to management after 3 1/2 as an analyst individual contributor and you’ve summed up all the things that make me hesitant to do so. The department I’d be taking over has some really good people and two that quite frankly need to go. I’m torn.

    2. Julie Noted*

      You’re not stuck. People can choose to change jobs to one that earns less but that they like better, and many do.

    3. anonStuff*

      Some technical jobs pay a lot. I agree with you about being a manager – when I was one, I felt like many of these well-educated adults were acting like preschoolers.

    4. Sleve McDichael*

      Anon, if you’re up for doing a few years of uni, engineering pays very well, is super interesting and you can avoid people management unless you deliberately become a project manager. There are a lot more opportunities for women nowadays too. You can pick your interest, anything from biomedical to environmental, mechatronic to maritime. Despite what people think the maths isn’t that hard. If you were getting Bs in high school you can get through engineering just fine (I’ve seen a lot of mediocre men scrape through). Join us! Help people! Save lives! Build mars rovers! Push the bounds of human knowledge! Ok, so I moved into the sales pitch there for a sec but seriously, consider it!

      1. I shall return anon*

        I have a PhD and a specialty masters besides. I’m not going back to school, certainly couldn’t afford it, and have absolutely no aptitude for math or engineering, trust me. :)

        My choices are to keep going, be miserable and pay my bills or take a much lower paying job and not be able to pay my bills. It’s a choice, but not much of one.

        I think the solution may be job hopping, to a degree. Give myself five years in each place to start excited, develop a level of comfort, then get out before the personalities and quirks of the employer get to be too much…

    5. Agree*

      Omg I am so with you my friend. Managing people is truly another layer of hell. I’ve also tried to find individual contributor jobs that pay the same but to no avail. I’ve decided that taking a pay cut is worth my sanity.

  148. Liane*

    Quick update on Daughter at Fashion College. She has had 2 class meetings (courses are 5 hours, 1 day/week for 10 weeks) and loves it. The education trust from her grandparents is paying! Daughter hopes that after they complete a couple courses, she can persuade the trust to pay for the rest of the degree program up front, which will also protect the trust funds from tuition increases. Trustee also paid for the sewing machine and serger plus other supplies. We are so proud that Daughter did all the work of arranging with Trustee herself. They have anxiety which makes that kind of thing hard. All Daughter asked us to do is for me to read over her draft email to Trustee requesting funds & for us to provide transportation. Three cheers!

    1. DataGirl*

      ooh, my daughter is talking about wanting to study fashion. Would you be willing to share more about how your daughter got into it and what kind of program she is in?

      1. wingmaster*

        Wanted to jump in here, even though your question is directed towards Liane.
        I got my BFA in fashion design. Is your daughter interested in more of the design side or merchandising?

        1. DataGirl*

          I’m not sure, I will ask her. She really likes styling and putting together outfits so I think that’s where the interest is coming from.

    2. wingmaster*

      How wonderful!

      And it makes me happy to see fashion students, as I was one myself. It’s not a cheap major to be in, so cheers to her for doing this.

  149. Ellie*

    Would it be weird to ask if a former boss could send you a recommendation email they wrote for you? I’m in the middle of making a career switch and I recently was out to lunch with a former boss. We’ve always been on friendly terms. I was at the beginning of my career when I worked for her working in a different field. I’m in the process of applying for a new position with my old company and know she knows the hiring manager. I asked if she would feel comfortable sending a recommendation to the hiring manager as a former supervisor of mine. (Nothing too technical or skills-based as this is a different field than the work I was doing for her, but essentially that I was a hard worker, easy to get along with, good culture fit, etc.)

    She was so flattered that I was asked and seemed excited at the prospect of me returning to the company after many years away. She wrote up the email on the spot, showed me her phone, and asked if there was anything else she should add. It was a great email!

    Now I’m back home and I’m thinking I should maybe ask for a copy? I’ve always had letters of reference in previous situations. Should I email and ask if she could forward what she sent the hiring manager? It’s not a secret – she literally showed me the email after she wrote it. Or is that weird?

    Thank you!

    1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’m not sure letters of reference are really that important these days, and I also have to say, a letter of reference that a long-ago manager dashed off on the spot about your likable personality, isn’t likely to be particularly useful in future job searches outside of this company. But if you work in an industry or region where letters are still the norm, I don’t see why you can’t ask her for a copy.

      1. Ellie*

        I think you’re probably right. Upon further thought, I think I just wanted a copy to help boost my morale a bit before the interview. But I will resist.

  150. Lives in a Shoe*

    I have an interview tomorrow for a job I really really want. Higher ed, analyst position but a couple steps up. I hear great things about the management and know and like 7/8 of the staff there already. Fortunately I’ve added very similar tasks to my current position so I hope I’m poised to make that step. I know how many people are being interviewed and I’m going to do my best to be absolutely prepared for this. Fortunately I was on a pre-screen list (apparently by mistake) and that gave me a little time to run through the process like a rehearsal.

    I was asked about salary – they published a band, and I said at least in the middle of the band, but I did some research and last year the publicly reported salaries were on the lowest end of it – I hope they have all gone up for this year and even the lowest part of the band would be a huge jump but I’m going to do my best to negotiate if (I hope I hope) I get to that part.

    Wish me luck!

  151. SleepySally*

    I doubt anyone will get this far but…

    I recently had a higher up give out my personal cell phone number to someone in a facility that has different hours than my facility. I have a real issue with this because I suspect that this person will take full advantage. I want to bring it up with the person who gave out my number (who got it from my boss because he doesn’t understand technology and doesn’t realize when you send out a group chat al the numbers are available, and when one person isn’t in the contacts it’s pretty obvious), but I’m not sure how. I’m incredibly frustrated as work life balance is important to me, but the upper management in my company doesn’t seem to get that.

    1. The Tea Lady*

      Practically speaking: the first time this person with your number calls, make sure you save their number in your phone! And just – don’t answer it regularly (if at all) outside of your work hours. If it comes up, you say “I generally don’t take business calls outside of work hours. If it’s an emergency you should be doing X.”

      1. DataGirl*

        This is good advice. Is it an option to just not answer those calls outside of work hours? Return the call the next day during your regular hours.

    3. None the Wiser*

      First, would the colleague at the other facility be calling you for at least semi-legitimate reasons? Or for non-urgent matters outside of *your* work hours? In either case, the first time(s) it happens, just re-direct to an alternate resource and let them know that they will not always be able to get in touch with you outside of your work hours, so they should do a, b, orc instead. Follow up with an e-mail, copying everyone’s boss.

      Don’t bring it up with your boss pre-emptively. If the colleague becomes an on-going issue, loop them in then.

  152. Fake Resume*

    Has anyone had success with faking a resume? I could really use some advice to finally get a job.

      1. silvertech*

        I don’t think anyone reading this comment would be willing to hire youas, since you admitted to use a fake resume…

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’m still curious as to what kind of fake though because there are so many jobs that don’t require resumes.

          My community FB page is full of “who wants to work, come get it.”

      2. My Brain Is Exploding*

        I think the AAM peeps need more info here! What are you qualified for/looking for? Where are you now? Have you searched the archives? Why do you think you are having trouble? Etc…. There’s a ton of helpful info on the site and in the minds of the people who comment!

    2. Chronic Overthinker*

      My advice, DON’T.

      Check out your local job center. Not only do they help with writing resumes, they help with interviewing, job searches and tons of other resources.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you really want to relocate somewhere that can fire you if you cannot live up to your fake resume though?

      It can work…but it can also leave you destitute in the middle of nowhere USA.

    4. ...*

      No idea what your field is but if you just want any job at all I would recommend going to an amazon warehouse open call as they advertise that you can come without a resume and work same day.

      1. JustSayNo*

        I’d advise against it, as the paycheck may come at a cost of your mental and physical health. (OldCompany had been called in to do workplace bullying prevention and determined the entire environment was far too toxic and would have to change first.)

    5. Too embarrassed to use my usual handle*

      I have a friend who did this, but like the other commenters have said, it is NOT something I would recommend doing. She was a high school dropout, who read a lot and was very smart. She dropped out of school because other girls were bullying her and beating her up. She then became a teenage bride (and she was not pregnant at the time), but the marriage soon fell apart.

      She felt that the biggest lie on her resume was her claim that she was a high school graduate. The claimed “experience” on her resume consisted of entry-level food service and retail jobs at real businesses that had all (conveniently) closed and she listed friends who claimed to be former coworkers who lied for her during reference checks.

      My friend only applied for very entry-level jobs that she felt she could do at different businesses (not government jobs). Things like working in fast food, waiting tables and entry-level retail jobs, so it was not like she was claiming to be a brain surgeon and could do a lot of damage. In spite of this, she was found out several times and fired after anywhere from a couple of days to several weeks later because they hired her before they had finished the background check. My friend felt that at least she had worked for a short time and they always paid her for time she worked before she got fired. Eventually she lucked out and was hired by bookstore at a private college where they apparently did not do a background check, or if they did, she was able to get away with her deception. This is where I met her, at the bookstore.

      Feeling that she was in a somewhat stable situation, my friend used the opportunity to attend night school and get her G.E.D. After a couple of years of solid work experience and G.E.D. in hand she now had real work experience and no longer had to use a fake resume and she went on to get a job where she didn’t lie about her background.

  153. Jessen*

    Reality check request:

    There’s one coworker that I mostly get along with, but something about his behavior just seems a bit off. It seems like he’s going out of his way to be chivalrous and not just nice, and that rubs me the wrong way. There’s nothing major I can point to, but little things. Like he’ll make a point of getting in front of me to get the door, and he’ll take it from me if I hold it and insist I go through first. And he doesn’t do that with our other, male team members.

    I don’t really think it’s a thing I’d say anything about. But it just feels weird and a little icky to me. I don’t have any reason to think there’s any attempt at flirting or anything, but it still feels like I’m being treated differently because of my apparent gender.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If you appear to be female, and he only holds the door and insists you go first when it’s you/other female-appearing people, and he never does the same thing for male-appearing people, then you are, in fact, being treated differently because of your apparent gender.

    2. JFC*

      Being a gentleman does not equal misogyny. Is he treating you like a lesser person in meetings? Is he disregarding your ideas? Is he asking you to get the men coffee? Being polite is ok, and getting the door for someone is being polite.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Getting the door for someone is being polite. But taking it from someone who is already holding it, and insisting that they go first, is…something other than polite. Not misogynistic as you suggested, but it seems pretty clear this person is treating Jessen differently because of her gender.

        Also, I’m sure you’ve heard this lots of times, but impact is greater than intent in cases like this. It doesn’t matter if the person is being polite, or clueless, or aggressively misogynistic, or anything else. His behaviour is making Jessen uncomfortable. She can decide to live with it or decide to do something about it, but that decision is up to her, regardless of how “polite” the other person thinks they’re being.

      2. Zephy*

        Running ahead of someone specifically so that you can open the door for her and insist she walk through first isn’t polite, it’s patronizing. If he’s not running ahead of everyone and insisting on opening the door for everyone and his job title is not actually Door-Getter, he needs to stop. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Treating someone differently due to their gender or their appearance of being female is not acceptable behavior and is indeed misogynistic.

        You don’t have to be grossly bigoted but to think of the women as the “fairer sex” and to think that means they get to go first is indeed sexist behavior. Hold the door for everyone. Ask the room if they’d like you to pull out their chair if you’re going to go there, etc.

      4. Bagpuss*

        Holding the door only for women, and taking it from them and insisting they go through first even in the way described isn’t being a gentleman. Nor is it polite. Its a power play and it’s absolutely icky and sexist and worth calling him out on.

      5. Jessen*

        Honestly I’d prefer if people not worry about “being a gentleman” at work. Like, I can tell the difference between how he acts with it, and how our other two team members (both male-presenting) handle it. He’ll take the door and insist I go first, even if I get there ahead of him, while with the others it’s pretty much whoever gets to the door first holds it.

        I’ve also noticed if my computer’s acting up he’ll insist on redoing troubleshooting steps I just did. I don’t think he does that to the guy who was hired around the same time I was, although I haven’t paid close attention. He does have more experience so I ask him to help with things sometimes, although I’ll usually ask someone else. There’s only 4 of us total, so I don’t really have a lot of comparison.

      6. Lissa*

        Something is allowed to make someone uncomfortable without it having to be misogyny, and politeness is only polite if the person on the other end of it appreciates it as such. Insisting on doing something the other person would prefer you didn’t is not polite! Now, there’s no reason to think this guy is aware he’s making anyone uncomfortable but so often women are basically told if the guy is “being nice” she should actually appreciate it.

    3. Zephy*

      Next time he does something like this: “Hey, Fergus, I get that you’re trying to be chivalrous or whatever, but this makes me uncomfortable and I would like you to stop.” (He’s going to offer some kind of rebuttal – “I’m just being polite,” “I was raised to open doors for women,” blah blah blah. It doesn’t matter what he actually says.) “I understand that, but I would still like you to stop doing it, please.” Repeat until he gets it.

      1. Dorothy Zbornak*

        Yes, I think this is a good script. Or if you want to start off a bit slower, maybe something like “Oh no, really, you first!” and “Gosh, Bob, let me do a nice thing for you, won’t you?” And repeat several times if you have to.

        I will say, what I don’t recommend is what I said last time I was in a similar situation, which was “Ah, I’ve finally beat you to the door for once!” Which I thought was good-natured teasing, but made him actually walk away in a huff because it apparently actually came off as unnecessarily competitive. Oops! :)

        1. Zephy*

          But did he stop doing it, though? If so, I’d still count that as a victory. It’s not my job to make this white knight feel good about himself.

          1. Dorothy Zbornak (2)*

            I think so. I remember it feeling a lot less “chivalrous” after that and I think after that we would both open doors for each other. Also, I realized after I was working there longer that though most of the team would tease each other, he mostly stayed out of it and didn’t seem to enjoy jokes like that in general. So I think that was also part of why he didn’t appreciate it.

            So I understand not wanting to spend capital now and especially when you don’t yet have a good sense of what kind of phrasing would work best with new coworkers, but maybe these scripts are something to keep in mind for later, if this behavior gets annoying.

      2. Jessen*

        I’m probably not going to say anything just because it feels like more trouble than it’s worth. Not sure it’s something I want to spend limited capital on as the new hire, especially when I don’t have any really solid examples. Just didn’t want to feel like I was going crazy, either.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is one of those archaic manners kind of thing. “oh let me hold the door for you m’am!” and such.

      I had someone try to serve me first at a BBQ awhile back because “lady’s first!”

      What I do is jog ahead and hold the door for them and say “here my turn!” and show them that we’re equals like that. Don’t worry, you don’t need to walk on the side next to the street and save my skirt from the mud or possible chamber pot being thrown down from above, kind sir!

      It feels icky because it’s out of place in our day and age. They came from a structure that taught them to treat women like they’re to be cared for, etc. I don’t get mad or creeped out, I just laugh about in a kind hearted way.

      One stranger actually waited for my mom and I to enter the elevator first! We were strolling that way but he held it, without getting in! So props that he saw us but he could have gotten in first! I wish he had tipped his hat just as an extra old-timey gesture.

    5. CatPerson*

      I find that MOST men will hold the door or beckon you to go first. Yes, it’s gender related, but since it’s polite, I just go with it. It’s a cultural thing, but you can’t get mad about everything, you know? I liken it to when I am on an elevator with another woman, I often gesture for her to go first anyway.

      1. valentine*

        since it’s polite
        Forcing gender role play isn’t polite. It’s creepy if a guy insists on being behind you instead of holding the door open behind them and getting out of your way.

        Jessen, tell him to stop treating you differently and, when he does, say, “Don’t make it weird.”

  154. Anonanon*

    I’ve started looking for a new job because my department head (fortunately not my direct supervisor) sexually harassed a number of female employees but wasn’t fired. In fact, management seems to be covering it up. I have two questions:

    1) What do I say in interviews when they ask me why I’m leaving? I think dropping the sexual harassment thing is gonna be a big bombshell that explodes my chances of getting the job. I’m planning on saying, “I’ve been at the company for four years now and am looking for a change.” Or “There isn’t any room to grow within the company.” Would that work for now?

    2) What’s my ethical obligation to report this? If I tipped off a reporter or something, I am 100% sure I would be fired, since management is invested in protecting this guy, not the people he harassed (who are around my level (I’m a project-based specialist with no direct reports) to entry level admins). Right now I’m planning on saying nothing until I have a job elsewhere and then seeing if I can speak off the record to a reporter. It doesn’t feel right that this will be covered up. This company’s made a lot of statements supporting MeToo and gender equality and stuff like that. Which is why I applied to work here initially– and I am afraid other women will think the same thing as I did and end up in a situation where a department head sends them pornographic emails and texts and management “gently encourages” them to find new jobs while the harasser stays put.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yes, steer away from anything like the truth in that situation. I had the same issue when I quit because of someone being fired for getting hurt on the job and other general treatment of people who were injured [aka they weren’t given proper medical attention]. Which was the tip of iceberg of course, they were also just generally awful. I went with “work life balance” only because I was also clocking absurd hours.

      They don’t need the gritty details. You could possibly go with “Management wasn’t very attentive to workplace concerns.” but I wouldn’t if you have 4 years and no room to grow, that’s perfect, stick with that.

      Leave and then report the hell out of it. Protect yourself first.

  155. StillLooking*

    One of the job search options I have going at the moment is with a temp agency. The process has been rather disorganized with blatantly deceptive practices…but that’s not the issue in question here.

    This morning, I missed a call from a recruiter at a different branch of the same agency. They claimed to have located my resume at a job search site I haven’t looked at in over a decade due to its retail/fast food focus. So 1) they have an incredibly outdated version of my resume or 2) they pulled it from the agency database and just…”forgot”.

    My question: what is the protocol here, when a recruiter from a different branch of the same company reaches out with possible positions? Presuming everything was on the up-and-up, would I inform the “primary” recruiter, tell the new one off (nicely), ignore it all…?

  156. Moira Rose*

    Kind of just want the commentariat’s opinion on a business etiquette issue. I have (soon to be “had”) an employee who is early-career but talented. She had spent her entire career since college graduation with our outfit, and because of the culture of our org, she felt comfortable telling me she was putting out feelers for other gigs. She then asked me if I would be willing to serve as a reference, since, again, she really had no one else to ask, as ours was really her only post-graduation job. Unorthodox, sure, but I had no hard feelings about her looking elsewhere — the things she wanted to pursue were not things I could in any way provide for her — and I agreed. (I also knew that not cooperating wouldn’t lessen her chance of leaving, but it would lessen my chance of a generous notice period, something that was very important to me.)

    I ended up serving as a reference via phone for two different jobs. It turned out that the second employer who called me basically got off the phone with me and immediately phoned my employee to offer her the job, which she accepted. She starts with them next month.

    I’m curious what the commentariat thinks about the business etiquette for the employer who offered my employee the job. He knew he was hiring someone out from under me in a fairly high-demand skill area. He knew by helping him I was making my professional life more difficult. So I was a little disappointed to never hear from him after our reference call. I expected an email thanking me for the info he needed to hire my soon-to-be-ex employee, and to have a bit of “Little League shake hands after he’s won the game and I’ve lost” attitude about it. A thank-you would have gone a long way in making me feel like he understood the stakes of my agreeing to serve as a reference.

    Am I thinking of this in a reasonable way, or am I being unreasonable? This registers for me as no worse than “irksome,” but if I’m totally off-base, I’d like to know that I should downgrade from “irksome” to “totally expected business practice.”

    1. Filosofickle*

      I would not expected to be thanked for a reference, under that or really any circumstance. I recently gave a reference for someone currently working for me, and immediately hopped off the phone with me to make her an offer. I’d have been surprised to have received a thank you from them.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would never expect someone in a position like that to call you and thank you. He should thank you for providing the reference, absolutely, and I assume he did so when you were on the phone. But beyond that, he has no obligation. His relationship is between him and your employee; he doesn’t need to ask for your blessing as if you were her parent and he wanted to marry her.

      Similarly, your relationship is between you and your employee. The fact that there are different stakes with this reference are between you and her. The person who should be acknowledging the position you were put in is your employee, not her new boss.

      The most I would expect from him: if you are in the same industry and you run into him at a conference, then maaaaaybe you’d get a, “Hey, that Employee is great, thank you for putting in a good word,” but he’s not obligated to do that.

      1. Moira Rose*

        Oh my goodness, in no way did I expect him to ask for my “blessing”! Just a thank-you for providing a reference when it was enabling him to hire one of my people. But I seem to be in the minority here, so I suppose the gentleman in question was following majority practice here.

    3. Kathenus*

      I agree with the other commenters. I thank people at the time, when they give me a reference but I’ve never done a follow up thank you. Good on you, though, for being a supportive manager that your employee could come to for this request and that you did it in good faith for the good of her career. Good karma to you for that.

    4. Blue Eagle*

      In hiring staff and checking references, I’ve never re-contacted the current boss about whether or not I’ve hired the person. I would expect the new hiree to contact any references about a successful job hunt.

  157. Hedgehug*

    I just need to vent because I’m on a verge of a meltdown (not actually).
    I work by myself, am over-loaded, not enough hours, not allowed overtime. Work gets piled up, because I am the only one to do any of it, Boss keeps piling more on, as if I don’t have enough and he has zero comprehension why things get backlogged. I have been doing the same tedious thing all week because it has to be done by today, so it’s basically the only task I’ve been doing, and Boss has the audacity today to criticize me for getting another task done late today that should have been yesterday. To which I snapped at him, because in theory, yeah, Thursday deadline is fine, but not this week, because I’ve been doing this tedious thing that we are legally required to be doing by today. It’s a miracle I even got the secondary task done (which is also essential and can’t be skipped). I get zero appreciation at all. I only took half my lunch break today, to which Boss came to me with work, not even knowing I was on half lunch. So for all he knew, I was still on my unpaid break, and he brought work to me to be done that moment. I’m exhausted, and I cannot wait to go on maternity leave and let this office completely fall apart. Maybe then he’ll appreciate me.

  158. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Have you got a chapter of Labor Ready in your area?

    This won’t help if you cannot do physical labor, are you able bodied [I hate that this is a thing and I’m sorry that you’re in this place.]

    There’s lots of agencies who just want warm bodies with backs.

    Also there are places that hire people regularly on the spot but the pay does suck…

    You haven’t mentioned what level of support you need to pay your bills, so if you’re coming from a place where you cannot pay for a room with minimum wage, that’s another story of its own.

  159. Chronic Overthinker*

    TL: DR How do I self-direct when I’m not sure what direction I should be going?

    I have a good job. I’m a front-facing receptionist for a multi-office firm. Most of my day is dedicated to phone calls, emails, office supply ordering and physical mailings. There is a ton of ebb and flow to my work. I have periods of busyness followed by periods of downtime. I am given extra work on an as-needed basis and slowly learning more skills to assist with the rest of the office. I would love to learn more about my organization. I do attempt to learn more by gathering basic information about our particular service that we provide (as in something that an individual would be able to gather via the internet, if they were savvy). I’ve tried asking for more work, and been politely “shot down” and given the directive of “as-needed” so I don’t take initiative on projects.

    Where I am struggling is how to be productive during my down time? I don’t want to start training on something if I’m not going to need it, and I don’t want to take initiative on projects to later be told I shouldn’t have done that. My biggest issue that I am having is my direct report doesn’t actually work with me directly. Everyone else that I work with is essentially my “boss” but I don’t report to them. How do I grow within the company to be a more productive member of the team when I don’t know which direction they want me to go? I’m anxious as the team’s annual review is coming up even though my first year hasn’t been completed. Any advice?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In this situation, you have to look around you and see if there’s something in your scope that you do that’s similar.

      Like can you reorganize something to make it look better to the eye that’s not a huge undertaking? Do you source supplies from the same place regularly without shopping around or do you already make sure to shop for your price options?

      If you’re going to be away, do you have procedural docs if someone had to sit in for you? Even the basic stuff like how to use the postage machine, that helps a lot if someone is dropped out of nowhere to sit in if you’re abducted by aliens. Keep that manual up to date.

      I used to retype stuff that was handwritten or reformat things that weren’t very easy to follow along with, if you do have a book that you currently use.

      And sadly you have to find someone who wants your assistance more than anything, which may just take time and waiting for them to come to you. You can grow from a receptionist to another setting very easily in a lot of places. Just keep in mind, this might not be the place and that’s okay. They’re not bad and don’t dislike you, they just don’t see it yet. So try to keep yourself busy, take pride in the well kept office/reception area that you’re working in at the moment, do more than the average person in that position wherever possible with the typed “how to use this stupid postage machine of doom” write up, etc.

      I started in that general area and that’s a way to pave your way to full on office management at the right organization. Devour the times you get to help with projects in other departments because it’s how I learned accounting from the bottom up. If you’re leaning that way. I saw someone else lean into marketing that way as well because the marketing manager took a fancy to her and had her work on more and more projects.

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        I’ve been good about reorganizing supplies, I’ve created SOP’s for just about every piece of equipment and have an entire binder of a guide on how to do EVERYTHING so if I were to be hit by a bus tomorrow, anyone would be able to do my tasks. I do shop around quite a bit for supplies, though we have a particular supplier we love who is slightly more pricey, but has no shipping costs and can deliver in 24 hours so it can be worth the extra couple bucks now and then. And honestly I don’t think I’ve really been “shot down” per se, but I’m “everyone’s assistant” so I’m sure no one wants to overwhelm me with so many different things. I have only been in the role for a little over six months. Hopefully I can gain some insight in the review and see a way to move forward. I love the work and see possibilities for the future as the work itself is primarily in my wheelhouse and miles above my toxic ExJob. I might just be over-thinking, hence my username. *sigh*

        Thanks for the advice.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s only been 6 months. So that’s a huge one too, they need to get a feel for what you’re capable of and what other people’s needs for your time are. So yes, review time will be a good time to gain insight into what direction they want to go in with you in terms of development!

  160. Foreign sounding*

    Language/dialect question: I‘m employed short term in a neighbouring country to my home country in order to produce some materials and media for an organization. The two countries speak the same language but the regional dialects in my country can be hard to understand for people from my current place of work. My colleagues understand me alright (I am not using dialect with them) but I sound noticeably not-from-this-country. Should I provide my voice for media we are creating or would this irritate future users? I appreciate any ideas!

    1. Avasarala*

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with using your voice since you are also a native speaker of the language and clearly easily understood.

      That said, your organization may have an opinion from a branding standpoint. If you have a marked accent, it may sound like your org is not “based there.” If your media is trying to appeal to locals and sound folksy, a foreign dialect might not be as effective, for instance. The org may prefer a male voice or female voice, certain tonal qualities, level of cheeriness, etc. for marketing reasons.

      So if you’re making a commercial then I’d think about this more carefully. But if you’re doing a voiceover on how to use internal software, then I don’t see a problem.

  161. another scientist*

    In the first discussion about stand up meetings, somebody said that you should only have a meeting if there is a reason for it. Another version I’ve heard is don’t call a meeting for something you could say with an email. I think this sounds totally reasonable. But in my reality, people will have silly meetings for silly reasons all the time. What’s worse, it seems to be the norm that nobody reads their email. So if you want to spread the word, you need at least four email, of which at least one needs to come from the big cheese or else people just will not know.
    It has been this way through 3 institutions I’ve been in in the last 15 years, it just gets progressively worse. Are you telling me that there are places where this is not so? People read their email, so you can be mindful of people’s time when calling meetings?

    1. Filosofickle*

      As a consultant, I have worked with many different companies, cultures, and teams. There are definitely some places that operate efficiently! Where people are responsive to email at least most of the time, agendas are created and followed, participants review materials prior to meetings (so you can use meetings for discussion, not presentation), they hold meetings only when needed. And, to be fair, some of them make me up my game, especially with being clear about the purpose of meetings! But most of my clients are somewhere in the middle, with some dysfunction but not a ridiculous amount. (Personally, I’m selective about who I worked with. If I had a client that did not read and act on email or misused meetings routinely, I’d never work with them again. I have done that.)

    2. tangerineRose*

      Is it possible that people read the e-mail but then forget about it? There were times at a place I worked where I wished that certain kinds of info were easy to look up instead of being in random e-mails that were sent here and there.

  162. The Tea Lady*

    Hi all! I’m looking for suggestions on how to get the most out of a coworkers – I’m not their manager but we collaborate closely on many projects that are core to our business.

    For context: I am Teapot Business Development, and they are co-Tea Room Managers and Tea Party Managers. One of them, Tanya, does the majority of planning – ordering stock, hiring staff, booking extra vendors and coordinating menus. She regularly gets overwhelmed and is behind on delivering updates that myself and our boss need to make sure our events are in hand. The other, Milo, has expressed a desire to our boss to be more involved in this higher level planning, but Tanya can’t/won’t bring him in on some of it, because she insists he can’t do it to the same standards.

    They’re both not great at emails because they work on the floor of the Tea Rooms and are constantly being pulled away. My boss has asked me to spend more time at the Tea Rooms to help get things flowing better there – you ask for something to happen and then it just never gets done.

    Tanya and Milo are great operators – but they both struggle to see beyond the day to day running of the Tea Rooms to more long term strategy.

    I’ve scheduled a fortnightly check in meeting for updates and I’ve started sending them a brief agenda for the day before.

    To be clear, I’m not looking for ways to save them from themselves…I know their performance has to speak for itself. I’m trying to put in some structural elements that show what is/isn’t getting done and hopefully get better results from them.

  163. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Business communication etiquette question: I have colleagues who have a habit of calling me (we work remotely from one another) out of the blue. We have both email and an internal chat system, so I don’t pick up, because I’m not willing to interrupt what I’m doing to take their call. It’s not a consistent culture. Some folks call first, others email or message first.

    AAM Commetariat, do you consider this similar to someone coming up to you in a cubicle layout and I should just answer the phone?

    Personally, even in a cubicle setup, I would first email/send a chat asking them if they’re interrupt-able first.

    1. The Tea Lady*

      Depends on the content of the calls for me. There are some things far easier to ask and explain over the phone than IM or email and if you’re working remotely it’s sometimes nice to talk to someone rather than text based conversation.

      If it was more persistent and frivolous I’d be setting some boundaries. There’s also nothing wrong with not taking the call and calling back when you’ve completed the task at hand.

      1. valentine*

        They should email if it can wait and chat if it can’t.

        (People who chat “Hi” need to BLUF.)

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Yeah, I’d prefer people do that too…but some other people prefer to talk on the phone.

          And yes, BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front) all the way!

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Perhaps at least one could email or message first and see if the recipient has time to talk at the moment?

        Also, some offices have Skype or another messaging system with “status dots” that all can see. As in, you can mark yourself “Available,” “Busy,” “Do Not Disturb,” etc.

        If so, use your own status dot wisely — and check the other person’s status dot before calling or even messaging them.

  164. nep*

    I’m looking into taking a loan from my retirement savings. The entire savings is not a huge amount as it is, but I really need a chunk of money right now. Is this a ridiculous or at least unwise thing to do? Anyone here done it? I reckon I’ll take a big hit at tax time…Don’t know. I’m going to also ask my accountant friend who does my taxes what her advice would be. Just wondered if anyone here has some insights.
    Thanks

    1. NW Mossy*

      If you take it as a loan and not a withdrawal, you won’t pay tax on the withdrawn amount as long as you pay it back according to the terms of your loan. Typically, you’ll be able to stretch over up to 5 years (possibly longer if it’s for a home purchase) and make your repayments through payroll deductions.

      The downside: if you leave your job before the loan is fully repaid, the outstanding amount is due in full within a relatively short period – it varies, but expect < 6 months. If you can't come up with the money, then the amount you didn't repay is taxable and you'll get a 1099R for it the following January.

      The other common option is what's called a "hardship withdrawal." These typically require that you substantiate a specific financial need that qualifies as a hardship, like medical bills or to prevent eviction/foreclosure. You don't have to pay these back, but you do pay tax on the amount you withdraw, plus a 10% penalty at tax time if you're not 59 1/2 or older.

      I'm a retirement plan professional so it's out of my scope to give you personal financial advice about whether or not it's a good idea for you personally. What I will say, though, is that you're almost certain to have a fee deducted for either a loan or withdrawal, probably in the range of $50-$150. For small transactions, those fees can really hurt.

      1. nep*

        Thank you so much. Really appreciate your expertise and insights. I didn’t realise that about the taxes–good to know.
        I asked about the hardship withdrawal, as a big part of my need is to do with medical issues. But for various reasons that’s not an option that’s going to work for me.
        Indeed one factor I’m thinking through a lot is whether I’ll still be working (very part-time) at this place for three or four more years, as of course I’d like to spread the repayment out as much as I can. I suppose another option is quitting (as this is not going to be a forever job anyway) and taking my funds rather than roll them into another account…Not wise, I’m sure. But I’m in a very tight spot at the moment.
        Thanks again.

        1. Please Don't*

          If you quit and withdraw the money it will all be taxable and there could be a 10% tax surcharge for taking it early.

          1. nep*

            Thanks. I know–I’ve been reading about it and yes, I would get far less than what’s currently there.

      2. Natalie*

        You can’t take a hardship withdrawal without exhausting your non-taxable loan options first, so that would probably be a non-starter.

    2. CatPerson*

      You also need to check in to whether your retirement plan permits loans–some do, some don’t.

  165. CatLadyInTraining*

    How do you deal with an employee/co worker who always loudly rants and gets annoyed about every little thing? The problem is everyone else seems to laugh it off…am I missing something? I don’t mind it every once in a while, but it’s not every once in a while…

    1. Kisses*

      I tend to ignore them. Or if they start complaining I walk away (it was in a store, so something was usually happening I could blame my attention on). I also would direct them into checking on a customer or something (I was a keyholder so I could do so if needed)

    2. Leopard*

      I found with my coworker who would do this, the reason he would keep going on was he wouldn’t get the acknowledgement/commiseration he was looking for. The second he paused to take a breath, I would cut in with a sincere “Wow, that sucks” or “That sounds frustrating” and then redirect to something else. That seemed to work pretty well with him, though I guess other people might just want more and more attention. This coworker felt ignored and disrespected in the office, and just wanted a little validation, so it worked pretty well with him.

  166. Kisses*

    I just wanted to let everyone know that I have a new job finally! It’s been a long time, and I’ve posted here about my husband’s difficulties but not my own.
    I am making ice cream and I start next week!

    Thanks Alison. Even though I’m not a highly qualified person I was able to get the job by my “excellent resume” (what my new boss called it!)

  167. Chooby Tubes*

    Question: What would you consider “standard etiquette” for office keys? With my new (non-managerial) office job, I’ve been given a set of keys to my building. Do I add them to my keychain with my house keys? Do I put them on their own lanyard/keychain? Is it ok to let them wallow at the bottom of my purse or should I hang them up every night with my car keys? I’m rarely the last one out, and never the first one in, but I want to make sure I don’t lose them.

    1. Teacher Lady*

      I leave my badge (to swipe into the building) and the key to my workspace in the glove compartment of my car. (I used to keep them in my bag, until once I switched bags and forgot to move them with the rest of my stuff.)

      1. valentine*

        Keep them separate and away from the rest of your household. You don’t want anyone grabbing them on their way out or if you send them to dig in your bag for some reason. You want to restrict access as much as possible. Do you even need them at home? Keep only the ones for initial access with you and lock the rest up at work. Demand a locking container if you don’t have one.

    2. Kathenus*

      Depends. I have a bunch of work keys and I need to carry them, literally can’t do my job without them. I don’t want to carry any more keys than needed, so I have my house/car keys on a key chain, and my work keys separate on a clip. Really depends on the use, if I had a work key that was just to get in the front door in the morning and I never needed it again all day, I’d put it with my other keys on one key chain and keep it in my purse the rest of the day. If I was going to have to use it off and on all day I’d keep them separate. I keep my work set in a separate zippered area in my purse. My habit is to clip them to my belt in the morning before I leave home, but if I ever forget they’re still with me and accessible (versus if I put them on a hook at home or similar). Your need/use should be the drivers of which method you choose.

    3. OtterB*

      I have a fob that I need to swipe into my office and, in off hours, for the elevator to my floor. I have it on a lanyard mainly to improve its findability; it’s normally in my pocket, not around my neck. I need it every day I’m in the office, so it’s a different question from yours, but when working from home or traveling, it has a defined home in a pocket of the laptop bag I always take to and from work.

      Does your purse have a zipper pocket where you could stow those keys until you need them?

    4. Retail not Retail*

      Lanyard with all my keys, badge, and pass card. Never around my neck. Always kept in my car after work so I never have to hunt for it at home.

      We’ve also been given small tools and we’re just as responsible for them. I keep that in my trunk unless the task for the day calls for it because it’s sharp and awkward.

    6. Chooby Tubes*

      Thank you all! I appreciate the time you took to reply. This has helped put my situation into perspective.

  168. Princesa Zelda*

    How do I deal with not having enough work?

    I recently started a job where I’m an off-site temp for a teapot archiving company, supposed to work 20 hrs/week. I’m supposed to search the partner’s location for specific teapots and send them off, and then put them away once the company sends them back. I’m genuinely having fun, because I’m extremely passionate about teapots and I’m taking the time to go about it slow as I can and reading the teapot instruction manuals and all that. The thing is, I’m supposed to send no more than 3 boxes per week. I already have 15 packed up, and I’m going at a pace of about 4/day. The teapot archivists haven’t sent me any boxes back yet, and when they do it will be at about 3/week. I’m barely making the work fill 14 hours. I don’t expect to be able to be much busier once they start sending the boxes back since I’m so far ahead.

    Since I’m hourly and manage my own time, I feel a real responsibility to be working the whole time I’m clocked in. However, I’m also really aware that I’m losing almost an entire day’s pay when I leave when the work is done. I looked at the learning software my temp company has, and it seems to be mostly incredibly basic — I took the Excel tutorial this morning, since I know there’s a lot of power there that I don’t have the slightest idea how to harness, and the tutorial was mostly about how to open menus.

    Should I be watching these tutorials anyway? Bring a book? Keep going home? Something else? I’m not sure what’s appropriate to do in this situation.

    1. valentine*

      Are you just leaving or are you dismissed or have you agreed with your manager you’ll leave when the day’s work is done? Because you’re not obliged to leave money on the table and it’s worth asking what they want you to do when you’re able to wrap things up quickly. You could ask how they came up with 3 boxes=20 hours.

      Keep doing the tutorials and ask if there’s other stuff you could do.

  169. Nora*

    I have an interview coming up next week. Do I send a thank you to the HR person as well as my interviewers? I obviously would if he’s in the interview room, but what if he’s just coordinating the interview?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If he’s been doing a lot of communication with you to set things up, it’s nice to be included in the thank-yous. But it’s not absolutely necessary. It’s typically nice to include everyone in the process but it’s not always something that people do.

  170. I love open offices...said no one ever*

    Pet peeve: managers and others with offices who insist on having long conversations out in our cubicle farm. For the love of pete, go talk in your office. We have enough distractions in the world of open plan offices.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      On man, I found us doing this in the hallway earlier and ushered everyone into the conference room before the CSRs could light us on fire. It’s easy to be so unaware but I’m sorry that people don’t figure it out and are awful like that =(

  171. It’s all good*

    I’m helping a startup and need to get organized ASAP. What cloud program can you recommend for:
    Calendar
    Project management
    Project Vendor Maint
    Email Reminders for Tasks

    I know these are basic but it’s been awhile since I’ve needed to purchase something like this.

    Thank you.

  172. Vanilla Chai Latte*

    I interviewed for an internal role almost three months ago. I had multiple interviews and then heard nothing back. I reached out to the hiring manager earlier today for an update.

    It was a bit of a strange conversation. To make a long story short, they are still trying to figure out the role itself and are looking for a unicorn (their word, not mine). An external candidate has been identified but doesn’t possess a base knowledge of our field, doesn’t know the jargon, and lacks business acumen. They are going to speak with the external candidate in a few days. The hiring manager said they were torn because I possess all of the above, plus excellent skills and experience that are crucial for the role.

    Help me out here guys. Any thoughts on this situation? I’m ready to cross the role of my list, as in assuming I’m not getting it and focusing on other roles.

  173. Sick and Tired*

    I work in healthcare. I’m exempt and salaried, and hours are 8:00 to 5:30 with an hour lunch. 8:00 – 8:30 I have no clients or supervisees working then and we just prep for the day during that time. There is nothing I prep that I can’t do at home, after work, or over the phone.

    Our hour lunch can be split into breaks if we want. I can also take lunch at a non-lunch time and use it for an appointment if I want (example: a coworker had “lunch” from 9:00 – 10:00 to go to a check up and then ate later while doing desk work). Another thing I’ve done no problem is just take lunch as the last hour of the day and leave an hour early so I can do things like visit the dmv.

    On to the question: I have an hour commute one way, and it’s across time zones too (lose an hour on the way to work, in theory gain it back on the way home but I’m also hitting rush hour traffic across 2 cities so not really). I’m also having (non contagious, chronic) health problems that affect my stomach and symptoms are worse in the morning. Occasionally I’ll get vomiting or diarrhea and between that and the commute I’ll get to work closer to 8:05-8:10 on those days. My supervisor is aware of why this has been an issue and why it’s variable (I’m not having the episodes every day necessarily), but she’s also said that unless I call every morning I have a stomach issue to let her know before I’m on the way then I can get a write up. I’ve asked if I can negotiate an 8:15 start time to allow for some comfort in the morning and I’m not allowed to. I’ve also asked if I can just take a 45 minute lunch on days where I have a stomach problem set me back or if I can just work late and I’m not allowed that either. Between the time at work, the commute time, and a sensitivity to caffeine that a doctor will confirm, there’s only so much I can wake up early before I have to pull over on my way home from work to nap in my car.

    I have a follow up appointment this month and I’m going to ask for a doctor’s note covering this stuff then. If that’s not enough, should I just start looking for work elsewhere or just suck it up and make the morning calls as appropriate? It’s embarrassing having to call in and say, “Sorry, I have diarrhea, my GPS says I’m pulling in at 8:03.” And yes, I’ve literally gotten in trouble for arriving at 8:03 without calling first. And it’s especially frustrating when my supervisor actually has a start time at 8:15 and has taken to coming early and sitting in her car before work just to confirm what time I actually end up in the building.

    1. WellRed*

      I know it’s embarrassing , but you’ve offered several reasonable alternatives and I think your supervisor is being petty for a petty power trip. So yeah, give the gory details. “Explosive diarrhea with grade three abdominal cramping.” “Vomiting, but fortunately not projectile.” I’m assuming you have no HR?

        1. valentine*

          So if you get up early enough to allow for violent expulsions, you’ll crash at the end of the day? Have you asked for ADA accommodation? I mean, your supervisor is a sadist not to allow you to arrive a few minutes late, anyway, and an ogre to stalk you (Does she think you are sleeping an extra three minutes?!), but many healthcare jobs could accommodate this, as-is or by moving your start time to 8:15, if you did have a client-facing role.

          Have you appealed to her manager?

          Are there no better, closer jobs?

  174. Archive Trawler*

    I have a friend who hates her job and is planning to resign soon. She doesn’t have anything else lined up (she has the resources to support herself for a while, and just need to get out of a dysfunctional office), but she’s struggling with what to tell her boss about why she’s leaving when she gives notice. I’m pretty sure I’ve read at least one AAM column answering exactly this, but I’m having trouble finding one I can link to her. Could anyone point me in the right direction?

  175. Thankful for AAM*

    Very late to the party!
    My 29 year old son is job hunting and he made a kind of business card for his job hunt. The back has and OCR that links to his resume, the front has his name and contact info with a tagline about his goal (he is a sys admin, pivoting to infosec). His dad wonders if this is done now, he thinks maybe our son should not use it, any thoughts?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Can’t hurt to have it. Useful for networking events and to give to people who know others. I say do it.

  176. RagingADHD*

    Question about attire for a professional event.

    One of my major freelance clients is a midsized local nonprofit. The year-end campaign I did for them went so well, they’ve asked me to speak at their big fundraising gala dinner this spring. Awesome.

    But I have no idea what to wear. I’ve never been to a charity gala, much less spoken at one. I know I’ll have to get something much more upscale than my normal wardrobe, but I have no idea where to start.

    I’m going to be asking extremely rich people to write 4 and 5 figure checks on the spot. Gotta represent.

    I am a middle-aged woman who shops on the upper end of standard sizing. My normal clothes tend toward simple informal classics with funky colorful accessories. I usually have a fun color streak in my hair, like blue or purple. It’s faded out now and I am leaning toward not redoing it before the event, as the donor base trends older.

    Any ideas?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      First of all, I’d touch base with someone at the client organization and also see if you can find photographs from last year’s gala. I don’t know if we are talking about cocktail dresses or evening gowns or black tie or suits or expensive sports coats.

      A good middle of the road voice might be a nondescript dress in an expensive looking knit fabric with a draped cardigan over it and some nice earrings and a broach or pendant. It won’t wrinkle and is easy to fit and the cardigan combines “social” and “business”. Knock ‘em dead!

      1. RagingADHD*

        You know, I realized after typing the question out, that they were sure to have photos from past years’ banquets on their Facebook page. And so they do.

        The presenters, other than the Exec Director, all seem to have been men in business suits lately. Which could go practically anywhere on the women’s fashion spectrum.

        The ED and female board members seem to wear fashionable daytime dresses or pants and a snazzy jacket – kind of a dressy “creative professional” look, rather than cocktail wear.

        I think my safest bet is to go to our closest Nieman Marcus or equivalent, and get one of the personal shoppers to fix me up so I have the right shoes and earrings and everything. I tend to look rather Becky Home-Ec-y in stuff I pick out for myself, even when it’s a splurge.

    2. Quandong*

      Congratulations on being asked to speak at the fundraising gala!

      Would anybody from the nonprofit be able to advise you re expected formality of your clothing?

      I recommend searching for photos from charity gala dinners in your city, and if you can find any from previous years of this particular gala, even better.

      If you can see what past presenters wore, it will really help guide your search for clothing, shoes, accessories, etc.

      If all the men are wearing tuxedo jackets you’ll need to aim towards the highest level of formality. In that situation, would you consider renting something rather than buying it, just for the gala?

      I live in Australia so all I can suggest is Rent the Runway if your size is within their range. I hope other commenters will advise you about which retailers to check out!

      RE hair: people are getting more used to funky hair colours, even conservative rich people, so it’s worth asking your client for their advice about it.

  177. Retail not Retail*

    I can’t be vague in describing the actions because euphemisms just mix everything up. But I need to know if I’m overreacting. First my boss told me I was, then he said he was told I didn’t have to do this activity I considered unsafe and no one was allowed to give me grief about it.

    We have to drive part of the perimeter in a golf cart first thing in the morning to get trash and large sticks. This involves being on a sidewalk and later we have the choice between a leafy slope that narrows to just wide enough for the cart or the street. It’s the parking/bike lane.

    This is rush hour outside an elementary school and university. I regularly see people driving in non-driving lanes. Walking would be safer! To me.

    Well last Saturday my partner (the coworker i hate the most), wore a hard hat to do the drive. And then throughout this week 2 others started talking about it, like “oh is cleaning the parking lot safe?” You know what? I have called the parking lot quits early bc of unsafe drivers who run over cones.

    Anyway I have no idea how long this perimeter check will last because once the time changes it will be even darker and a month after that we drop our start time an hour so it will be even less safe!

    1. valentine*

      I’m not sure what you want here. If he’s not obliging you, don’t do it. The hard hat was a dig? Let them make fun of you. You’re safe. Do you have to go with them?

      Any reason it has to be done at rush hour? You’d think they’d get a sturdy vehicle like a leaf collection truck. Trash pickup and construction are some of the most dangerous jobs in what we call the US.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        I guess I wonder if my boss would like me to say no it’s fine – is it safe?

        And it’s part of our morning duties – clean the parking lot and check the perimeter. Once the season starts we’ll have to stop because we’ll have more intense work to do before we open.

        1. valentine*

          I would let it be. Work on something else, if possible. If not, too bad.

          They should move it to 30 minutes after the start time of the school, but the university is probably too much of a wild card for you to find a no-traffic half hour for this. When you’re exempt from something, especially for safety reasons, accept that gift. Don’t talk yourself into doing it, either in your head or out loud.

          The two people who asked about safety may have realized they never questioned it and are allowed to do so. But if they were mocking you, so be it. Do your thing and detach from caring what they think. You’re wanting to act on assumptions about others’ beliefs and motives and that can only hurt you. Wait this out and see how you feel a few weeks after the season starts.

  178. Matt Nick*

    I’ve got something ringing in my thoughts:

    1) I finished a career meeting with some folks. We taught them on writing CV’s and cover letters in a more captivating manner. Meanwhile, while walking home today, a thought came through maybe one of the best killer-points for one to be hired easily is by adding testimonials within their CV’s.

    I rarely see people do so.

    But on a more serious note, do you think adding one matters? If it does, how do you think should be the optimal number??

    _Matt

    2. Sunflower Sea Star*

      No, this is a bad idea. This is what references are for do not encourage people to do this. And please do not ever teach this in your classes/meetings/workshops.
      The fact that you’re teaching others and have no idea how bad an idea this is, concerns me. And makes me wonder what gimmicks you’re teaching them under the guise of “more captivating”.

      1. Zona the Great*

        That’s not fair. He had a thought and asked Our thoughts.

        It’s very LinkedIn-like. I wouldn’t do it, Matt. Too gimmicky and too far off professional norms. Focus more on teaching how to use the right narrative in resumes vs cover letters. Don’t lost job duties, list accomplishments. That sort of thing.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Testimonials are the kind of thing a freelancer might have on their website or portfolio. It’s so nonstandard on a regular resume that it would be off-putting.

      Resumes are supposed to be informative, not captivating. If it’s an industry that emphasizes cover letters, or a role that needs to demonstrate great writing skills, then the cover letter is the place to be captivating.

      And if it’s done well, the idea of the testimonial can be worked into a cover letter or in certain types of resume line items – like “consistently received highest possible rating in X” or that the candidate was recommended by senior management to lead or train others in Y.

      But actually quoting other people would be odd. Your resume is what you say about yourself. Trying to stand out by being gimmicky is just going to flag the candidate as inexperienced and unaware of professional norms.

  179. Anon Here*

    I’m really nice and easy-going. I resolve most conflicts diplomatically. This week, someone crossed the line and I had to, “play the bad cop,” as the saying goes. I feel traumatized by it. I wish I didn’t have to do that. I’m looking back and thinking about how I could have handled it better. The way I did handle it was not ideal, but it was better than if I had said nothing.

    That stuff takes a toll on me emotionally. It leaves me feeling drained for days. I need to get more resilient and move on from it faster.

    1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Hi Anon Here,

      Obviously I have no details on how you played the bad cop.

      Having had to do this more than a few times, here’s what I do:

      (1) Do it as quickly as you can. Don’t let things fester until you blow up.

      (2) Whenever possible — and often it is — do it behind closed doors. Have a witness with you if you must, but don’t lecture someone in public if you can avoid it.

      (3) Describe the relevant facts in detail, being direct without personally attacking.

      For example, “You’ve arrived at least 15 minutes late twice this week alone, and other times before that, and you’ve also repeatedly left at least 15 minutes early when you’ve come in late,” not “You’re lazy, you have no sense of time and a bad attitude.”

      (3a) If the facts aren’t all clear — if you haven’t observed all of this yourself, but rather are relying at least in part on reports, other people telling you things, etc. — then ask “This is what I’m hearing. What’s your side of it?”

      Then listen to the response and investigate as necessary. Only continue once you can conclude what’s more credible and what actually happened.

      (4) Explain how it affects people. (And no, don’t bother with “I feel like…” — that means nothing in itself and people abuse it [much like “just joking”] to hide personal attacks behind.)

      For example, “When you come in late, people have to wait/work gets undone/the rest of us have to stand in for you/etc.”

      (5) If you can point to something the other person has said or done that supports what you’re saying, do it.

      For example, “I think we’re in agreement on this — I remember that time Lisa Jones kept you waiting for over 20 minutes. You were unhappy about that, and you’re absolutely right because she was wasting your time.”

      (6) Make clear what needs to happen. “From now on, I need you on time each day, and you to leave no earlier than quitting time each day. Of course, if something serious comes up like you’re sick, you can call in as always. Or if you need to leave early, talk to me about it as far in advance as possible and we’ll see what we can do.”

      (7) Put the ball in the other person’s court.

      For example, “Any questions?” Or for something more complex “OK, what can you we do to make sure this doesn’t happen again?”

      And listen to the answer. Even if you can’t agree with it, it’s information about the other person, his/her concerns and likely cooperativeness.

      (8) If you get resistance, make clear what will happen next if the problem continues.

      For example, “You don’t have to agree with me that being on time is essential. But you do need to do it. If you don’t, the next step is an official write-up that goes into your file/loss of scheduling privileges/etc. And if you still don’t after that, it goes downhill from there…down to and including your termination if need be.”

      Or, “Right now this is between you and me. I’d like it to stay there, but if need be I’ll have to take it up with our manager, Fergus.”

      (9) Thank them for doing the right thing moving forward. Give them a good name to live up to (or reinforce one they already have).

      For example, “We really appreciate your making this effort moving forward. Clients have told us how professional you are, and this will make you even more so.”

      (10) If the other person persists, you need to follow through with consequences.

      Good luck!

  180. P. Beesley*

    I’m looking to leave my current job ASAP. I’m so done with my job that I’ve already written my 2 weeks notice letter template that I just need to fill with my last date at the company. My workplace is cliquish and catty, and I’ve learned the hard lesson that my coworkers are not friends.

    Despite all this, my workplace likes to think “we’re all a family” and we go out for bday lunches, lunches for when remote people come to town, appreciation lunches, and lunches just because. When I give my 2 weeks notice, I don’t want a goodbye lunch send off. In fact, I would like nothing more than to say my goodbyes privately to the people I care about, and be done with the rest of the team. If I could have it my way, I would not tell anyone until my last day that I’m leaving, and this would all be sent in an email.

    Any suggestions on how to politely decline a goodbye lunch?

    1. WellRed*

      Do you have one coworker you could mention this to and let them take care of passing on the message?

      1. P. Beesley*

        That’s a great idea! Thank you!! I’ll let a couple of my coworkers know and let them spread the message.

    2. Go Girl*

      You go with your bad self! This is awesome. But, I would let those cliquey backstabbers pay for 20 people at Red Robin, buy me a cake, and generally throw me a shin-dig on their own dime. Walk outta there like you own it and be proud to leave those jerks in your dust!

  181. Yolo ahead*

    Attn. public university employees: How fast (slow?) is staff hiring? I’ve applied to a few positions and wonder how long I should give it before assuming an interview isn’t going to happen.

    And for extra credit: any tips for someone who has never worked for a public university?

    1. The Crusher*

      Hiring tends to be painfully slow.

      What kind of positions are you looking for? I transitioned from the public sector and would be happy to try to help.

      1. Yolo ahead*

        Thanks! That’s good to know. The job postings have an “apply by” date but I don’t know what that means in terms of the overall process.

        I currently work at a private university but need to move states for personal reasons. The region I’m targeting has a large public research university, and working someplace with so much research and public service is exciting.

        Right now I’m targeting budget/finance jobs because that’s what I have the most experience with (and the best chance of maintaining my salary). My plan is get less picky about the job as time goes on.

  182. Can I get a Wahoo*

    Not sure if anyone’s still here, but I slipped down some stairs at work today. I didn’t do anything except dust myself off and take some Advil, but now at home I’m pretty sore and my neck is twinged. I don’t plan on going to the doctor, but should I document this at all? No one saw me, but I did mention it to my office mates.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Can’t speak for all companies, but where I work you’re supposed to report ALL accidents, even minor things that may seem inconsequential initially and didn’t require medical care.

      The reason is that you may feel fine at first, but it could turn into more. If it really was nothing, they still record it but it’s ranked differently.

      1. valentine*

        Report it. You don’t want not to be covered for future complications or to have issues if this is later considered a preexisting condition.

    2. Sorry*

      It’s up to you. I reported my injury and even tho the Dr. bills were paid, they sent me to such a terrible doctor that I have nerve damage in my foot for life. Worker’s Comp is awful and you have no choice in who treats you. Plus they treat you horribly bc you’re on Worker’s Comp (think Medicaid). Also, you will never win if you take then to court. I’m sorry to be the bearer of this news. Take care of yourself. If you don’t have health insurance maybe report it. But if not, make up a story to tell the doctor so they can’t trace it to your job and pay for it yourself.

  183. Still conflicted*

    I hope it’s not too late.

    Last week I asked about how I should list my term-to-perm job in my resume. Thanks to the advice, I’ve updated it. My question is related to the previous question.

    My contact will end in one month, but no one has talked to me about it. The notice period in my office is one month (not US). My questions are:
    1. Should I bring it up first, or let someone else do it?
    2. If I should, whom is it I’m supposed to talk to? My boss or HR?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Zona the Great*

      Bring it up first! Ask your direct boss. “I really like working here and wanted to get your thoughts on how I might better my candidacy for *an upcoming full time opportunity*”. Something like that.

      1. Still conflicted*

        Thank you! I actually don’t want to renew my contract, that’s why I updated my resume. But you’re right that I should take the proactive approach.

  184. PhyllisB*

    Any teachers, principals, ect. on here today? I hope this is not posted too late for someone to respond, but I have a question. I am not going to intervene in any way but I’m just curious about whether this was handled correctly or not.
    Here’s the situation: My granddaughter (age 18) has started student teaching (elementary level.) Everything has been going well until this week about two days ago the students were restless and rowdy because the weather has been rainy and they haven’t been able to go outside. Well, this day they were totally out of control and she snapped. She told them to sit down and shut up and that she was “tired of this crap!!” Well, they did sit down, but one of the students went home and told her mother and the mother went ballistic and went to the school demanding they she(my granddaughter) be removed from the classroom. Well, they did. She is now banned from subbing at this particular school again.
    I don’t know how all areas handle hiring subs, but here there is a particular employment agency that handles this and the school told them she wasn’t allowed back anymore.
    I realize this is totally unacceptable behavior for a teacher or a sub, but here’s my question. Shouldn’t they (the school) have talked to my granddaughter and got her side of the story? Shouldn’t they (school district or employment agency) provide training to these subs on how to handle these types situations? And last of all, was it proper for them to just totally ban her from the school without trying to mitigate this? I could see maybe a suspension, but a total ban? Like I said, I know she was totally in the wrong in the way she handled this, but she just finished school herself last year and has not had any training in classroom discipline. Thoughts?

    1. alex b*

      So, I’m a teacher of 14 yrs and counting. I appreciate your acknowledgement that Granddaughter messed up royally.

      The reason they’re banning her is that parents are already going to be pissed that some completely unqualified 18yo is “teaching” their elementary-age kids for even a day. That is ridiculous in itself. And now this random, uncertified teenager is screaming and lite-cursing at their kids in school? Not ok. There’s no mitigation possible, and it’s not worth anyone’s time to look into mitigation or giving her a second chance.

      Substitute teaching (I assume that’s what she’s doing; you said “student teaching” at one point, but that doesn’t seem to be the case) should be extremely limited, and ideally it’s somebody who is an actual certified teacher, though I know that’s often not the case. There’s very little training for subs, and parents could ban together and sue the school– bad news.

      I would think about it as your granddaughter just getting a sense of what type of career she wants and can handle at this time in her life. If she wants to teach– great! This doesn’t mean she can’t learn to be a good teacher. But she should look into formal Education programs that will have instruction on discipline and classroom management.

      1. valentine*

        She was a sub who blew up and mildly swore (some people are binary about swearing). She should cut her losses.

      2. PhyllisB*

        You are right alex b, I did say student teaching, but I meant substitute teaching. (It was late when I wrote this and that slipped by me.) I also agree that there should be more stringent requirements on who subs, but in our state you only need a high school diploma.
        She does want to be a teacher, and right now all her classes are on-line so she thought she would do subbing to see if this is what she wants to do. She swears that she didn’t say “crap” but I’m pretty sure she did.
        Anyway, my main concern is why isn’t there a training program in place to teach these subs how to negotiate classroom issues? When she gets to the education portion of her classes I assume this is a topic they cover, but to just throw an untrained person in there with no tools just seems wrong to me. All they seem to care about is a warm body so they don’t have to figure out other answers.
        I guess one reason this makes me salty is because there was a teacher at this same school who used to do the same thing (and worse. If she decided she didn’t like a child she would fail them.) Parents made numerous complaints and nothing was ever done about her.
        Not that makes what Granddaughter did right, but why should standards be so much higher for a sub than for a teacher?

        1. alex b*

          That’s great that she’s doing education classes! Whether or not she said “crap,” it just seems like she couldn’t handle a classroom of students– uh, of course she couldn’t! She’s not learned how to do it!

          Subbing is not an ideal way to get classroom experience, IMO. Shadowing is much, much preferable. It’s lower stress, and you can reflect on how the trained teacher is doing things– ALL THINGS. I just taught an undergrad class on writing reflections for shadowing classrooms, and there is so much to notice, from words to body language to room layout to time management, etc.. As a student-teacher, you can reflect on every decision the teacher makes and how the students react. That’s how teacher training should work.

          She shouldn’t at 18 be thrust into teacher role; that’s not going to go well. It’s just babysitting with way too many students and stimuli.

          No idea about the other teacher, but unions and tenure and politics exist. A Sub is a temp who can be axed for any reason.

          The way they’re handling subs in your area sounds like BS; I’m with you there. But who’s going to train her? Some overworked teachers? Why? From what you’ve said, she’s not the right candidate to substitute teach. She should focus on her program, and I’d suggest getting into an in-person Childhood Education program rather than online. I’m not even clear how you can learn to teach via an online program.

          1. Middle School Teacher*

            I’ve been teaching for 16 years and I agree with everything you say, as well as about the online classes.

            I would add if the granddaughter wants some practical experience, she should be working at a daycare or summer camp, something like that. Subbing in this environment will not get her practical experience.

          2. sequined histories*

            By far the best subs are recently retired career teachers. I have never heard of anyone anywhere investing anything in training a sub; it’s sink-or-swim. FWIW teaching can be a bit that way too, but at least it makes sense to invest in training a new teacher. And 18 is probably way too young to consistently exercise the sort of patience and maturity necessary for either job. The primary blame for the incident actually lies with any career educators who thought putting her in charge of classroom at only 18 was good idea.

        2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          Full-time teachers are hired for a full year. Even if they’re not tenured, generally the school has to keep them for at least the rest of the year (barring proven seriously bad conduct…and sometimes even then). And that’s not counting the long-term relationships they generally have with many families.

          By definition, substitute teachers have no contracts and no long-term relationships.

          The schools have obvious reasons to work things out with full-time teachers, that don’t apply to substitutes.

          PS: Substitute teaching is not a teacher training or mentorship program. I suspect your granddaughter needs a heads-up on that score.

    2. sequined histories*

      It’s very reasonable. What unreasonable is hiring an eighteen-year-old as a sub in the first place.

  185. Grad School or Bust*

    Hi AAM Community! Been following this blog for a while now, and was wondering if anyone has any advice regarding grad school and working at the same time?

    I’m applying to a public policy master’s program. I went to an open house for my program and a lot of the students who interviewed said that it was tough to work and go to school at the same time. My friend in the program worked full time and went to school full time and said it was doable, but tough. She also wished she didn’t work full time because she missed out on a lot of the opportunities the program offered.

    I waited 3 years after undergrad to go back to school, so I currently have 2 years of work experience. But I want to be able to leave my grad program with an additional 2-3 years of work experience, which will line me up for a great job after graduation. (I have to note that this grad program is prestigious enough that almost everyone gets a job after graduation).

    I could get an RA position, but I did that in undergrad, and I still had a hard time finding a job after graduation. Plus I want to work outside of academia, especially since I know I won’t be going into it after graduation. But any other job might not offer the same flexibility that being an RA would.

    I welcome any advice here! For those who worked during grad school, did that help you find a job after? Or do you wish that you hadn’t worked during grad school? For those who didn’t work during grad school, did that hurt your chances of finding a job after?

    1. Tessa*

      I went to law school. They really encouraged us not to work during our first year. Maybe you could at least try your first semester and see what the workload is? Do you have the financial ability to not work or to just work part-time? Could you look into getting an internship in a related field so that you’re building up your experience but only working 15-20 hours a week as your school schedule permits? I know grad programs are all different, but I found that having related jobs/internships during my summers and during the school year were immensely helpful in not only gaining experience but in determining what areas of law I liked and didn’t like. However, I would caution you to maybe wait until you really know the workload of your degree program before jumping into something that might compromise your coursework.

      1. Grad School or Bust*

        That’s a fantastic idea! I wouldn’t mind taking a semester to ease in and not work, and enjoy my first semester back after 3 years. Our state legislative session starts in January 2021, so I could work there my 2nd semester. And I’ve made a list of fellowships that I would like to pursue in the summers!

        I’m lucky that I have the financial ability to not work for my first year (I lived at home for 2 years to save up to cover living costs and all of my tuition), but I would have to work my 2nd year to cover living costs.

        Thanks for the advice!

    2. nym*

      I went to grad school in an adjacent field, and the school helped place us with 20-hr part time jobs in our field, which gave us a tuition break as part of the compensation. That was a way to gain work experience, reduce the costs of the education, and pay for most of my living expenses during the school year. When applying for jobs post-school, my assistantship supervisors served as professional references. Would your program offer something similar?

  186. Awkward VP - Help!*

    We have a new VP who hides in her cubicle, only schedules WebEx meetings and never talk to our staff. She’s been with us for 6 weeks. This same person, on her first day, gave us an introduction speech (think Brenee Brown) telling us how collaborative she is! Crazy. Today, I rec’d an invite from her for a meet and greet next week with a few other managers. How do you interact with someone like this? We’re all afraid for our jobs due to an upcoming merger and getting to know her is important. Help!

  187. Peppermint Twist*

    So, I need advice on keeping my phone, keys, and lip balm “on my person.” I’m a teacher’s aide and am seldom at my desk and also suffer from women’s pocketless pants. A cross body bag doesn’t seem right. I’ve thought of a simple apron – I seem to remember seeing suede aprons for carpenters(?) – or some kind of holster. A tool belt seems excessive but maybe that would work.

    My usual outfit is pants+ blouse+ cropped cardigan cardigan, J. Crewish, and I’d like to stay in that vibe, so maybe a suede something-or-other…

    Any ideas?

    1. Policy wonk*

      Fanny pack. Worn in front. They come in lots of styles. I don’t use them at work, but find them helpful when I’m out and about.

      1. valentine*

        Cross-body phone bag that’s as wide as the phone. They look vinyl. Any pack/apron takes away from your look.

    2. Amy*

      There are lots of hip bags / belt bags out there, I’d say one of those would probably do the trick. The question is how well you want it to blend with the rest of your outfit (therefore what kind / how many you want to invest in.)

    3. Don't Think About a Cat*

      Medical personnel have nylon bags that go across the waist and hold things they’ll need close at hand–tape, bandage scissors, markers, hemostats, index cards, small notebooks, etc. They come in various sizes. Would something like that work for you? Check “medical waist bag” on Amazon. They might not have suede, but they again, they might. I used to have a black one as nice as any Baggalini I’ve ever carried.

    6. Peppermint Twist*

      Thanks for your observations and suggestions- I just ordered a Running Buddy and am so looking forward to using it! Also shopping for a medical waist bag for yard work. You guys really helped me. =D

  188. Retail not Retail*

    Today should be my Friday but I rearranged my schedule next week so I can get two days off without using PTO. I usually work Tues-Sat but I need Tues and Wed off. We do this all the time. And back in my retail days I worked 7+ days in a row sometimes but blargh. Can’t stay up late watching SNL! Can’t walk the dog 3 times Sunday and Monday. Woe is me.

    Anyway we have something CRAZY FUN happening Monday so I’m excited to be a part of it. And my horrible partner works the same schedule I do so I won’t have to deal with him those 2 day.

  189. Dezzi*

    Hey everyone, just wanted to say thank you for all the advice and support re: my staff who was sexually harassed. One final update, Creeper Dude is gone! No idea what took them so long to show him the door, by my rockstar staff finally feels like she can breathe again.

  190. AnonWeekend*

    A few years ago, I mentioned to a manager of another team that I was taking a certain course, and he said offhand ‘We would be interested in someone with that knowledge on our team. But I don’t want to poach.” And he did NOT in fact poach me, because his team is FULL of the Brilliant Jerk stereotype and I didn’t want to leave my wonderful coworkers. However, their product is something I am extremely interested in (moreso than what my department does) and our company is one of the best in the world at it.

    Fast forward to now – my awesome boss got laid off and tl;dr I want to leave my department. Other department is still full of Brilliant Jerks with the same manager, but I also really am excited about the industry changing project they are working on.

    Should I ask to join their team? Should I at least sit down with the manager (with whom I have a decent working relationship since our departments were pretty intertwined) and express my concerns about working with certain people? I’m ok with SOME team members and don’t want to delude myself that I’ll love everyone if I end up changing companies.

    Has anyone done an internal transfer to a team they had relationship misgivings about and can give me advice?

  191. Don't Think About a Cat*

    I would like opinions about how to manage a raise request. I know Alison covers this sort of thing frequently and well, but I haven’t found any earlier posts that address my exact situation, and I could use some suggestions for phrasing.

    I work for a corporation that owns small service-oriented shops that are located in the back of retail stores of various levels. I happen to work in a fairly affluent area, and the stores we work in here are very nice. The structure of these stores is one professional, licensed llama care specialist (me, in my space) with 3-4 non-professional llama groomers. Legally, they need a professional on hand at each location to operate. About half of the shops are staffed with full timers, and the rest with fill-ins that come in on a daily basis. It’s a lonely set up for the professional, who is often 2-3 times the age of the lay personnel, at a far different level of life experience, education, and responsibility. So, as social types, the llama care specialists have started reaching out to each other to compare notes, chat, strategize, bitch (within reason), etc. As part of these discussions, I have discovered that I am making substantially less than the other professional full time llama folk. The person who had my spot prior made 5K more. There is a person in the next town down making 10k more. Professionals in our field are often paid on production/commission, but this is a salaried situation. We do receive a bonus for hitting our monthly revenue goal, but that’s universal–all of the professionals are eligible for them, and the goals vary by shop.

    My recruiter lied about the pay range, apparently (it was listed as DOE, but he gave me numbers and “fought to get me the highest”), but he’s long gone now. I’ve been with this company for just over a year, longer by several months than the professional at the next town. We recently got our annual reviews and raises, and my review was excellent (“role model”). I got a 3% raise, the maximum offered as part of this process. However, one of this company’s challenges has been recruiting other llama care professionals, as this sort of work represents a loss of prestige in our profession, so we pretty much all got great reviews and maximum bonuses. They’re not going to risk pissing us off.

    I do know, though, that I’m very highly regarded by management. I survived the most bitter shop lead you could imagine (and oh, how I’d love to tell those stories), and managed to turn our little shop into an effective working unit by implementing just a few new processes in the face of her resistance. We can now see more llamas per day, and the experience for the client is much nicer. People used to walk out in frustration from the wait, and now they don’t. We get positive yelp reviews on a regular basis, something unknown to this company before. People call ahead to make sure I’m in on a particular day. My new lead (after the bitter one wasn’t able to use me to get her way on something, and resigned in the most peculiar way I’ve ever seen) is literally a teenager, but she’s a damn wunderkind, and between the two of us the shop is doing quite well. We’ve gone from “don’t worry about those goals, they’re just out there” to nailing them 6 months out of the past 7. We’re in the running for the top spot in the company (nation wide) on a monthly basis now, and I think we might land it by the end of the year. To my boss’s delight, I’m setting up district-wide training for a particular type of service that I happen to excel in (think that along with llamas, we also see cobras, and I’m pretty good at dealing with them). Corporate officers have complimented me directly. And…I’m seeing exactly twice the number of llamas/cobras, and making slightly more than twice the revenue, of the shop down the street, with the professional who’s making 10k more.

    There’s been some drama this week. I can’t think of a way to llama-ize it, but suffice to say all the professionals are up in arms, and justifiably so. My boss visited this week to hear me out/talk me down and while he was there, I asked him if he thought a request for a salary request on my part would be well received. He told me that they only have half the professionals they want to, and they don’t want to lose any of the ones they have, and he figured that since all the professionals are talking I’d become aware of the inequity, so yeah. (I should say, I really like and respect my boss. He has field experience as a lay person, so he knows what we’re doing, and he has good ideas. He actually listens, and that’s a luxury. He does the best for us that his position allows, and he’s also mad about what we’re all mad about, which makes me respect him even more.)

    The first questions is, how much do I ask for? I’d be happy to be equal, but considering my numbers, etc, I feel like I could get more. Do you recommend asking for a specific number, or laying out the numbers and asking for “fairness”? And how do you phrase that? I’m kind of hung up on the specific line. Do I just lay out the supporting data (and yes, I have spreadsheets, and can screen shot the reviews) and say, “Based on my value to the company, I request a pay raise to X”? Does anyone have a better way to approach this?

    (An additional, esoteric consideration: in my field, professionals “should” earn 25% of the revenue they generate. Based on this metric, I should be making roughly $30K more. However, the professional down the street would then be currently greatly overpaid, and she’s a friend, so I don’t really want to raise that issue if I don’t have to. However, that gives you an idea of how these numbers work.)

    Thanks for reading my rambling. I appreciate any input. Have a great weekend.

    1. designbot*

      yep, lay out the supporting data and request what you want. Let your knowledge of what others make inform how much you ask for, but I wouldn’t start with that as the reason for asking. IF they argue, then you might bring it up, sort of like “I know this isn’t some wild number for this company or this region, as it’s in range of what professionals who bring in far less business than I do make.” But again, only if they push back. Given what you’ve said, you very well might get out of the conversation without mentioning it at all. And good luck!

    2. Close Bracket*

      Oooh, I am going through something similar. The wording you want when you lay out your case is, “Can can we bring my salary to parity with the other professionals?” You can also try, “Can you help me understand what’s driving these differences?” as an opening salvo, but the bottom line is you want to paid in line with the other people.

  192. Samantha*

    When giving your 2-week notice, what’s the shortest time you can give in advance?

    For example, if you want your last day to be on a Thursday, would putting in you resignation Tuesday the week prior be appropriate (8 business days)? Or would the Monday before (9 business days) be better?

    Asking for a mid-level non-senior employee who wants to leave on good terms.

    1. designbot*

      It’s not really two weeks notice if it’s only 8 business days… two weeks from thursday would be two thursdays prior. This feels like a trick question and I’m not sure why.

      1. valentine*

        Two-week notice is “I’ll be working 10 more days,” so the latest you can say that is very first thing Friday morning, which possibly only works for jobs with strict start times that have your manager and you arriving within minutes of each other and immediately having the space and time for the exchange.

    2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Two weeks’ notice is…two weeks.

      If you want your last day to be on a given Thursday, you put in your resignation no later than the Thursday two weeks prior.

      And by the way, that generally assumes no holidays in between. Next week, in the US we have Presidents’ Day. If the workplace in question observes that holiday, and if the employee in question puts in the notice prior to Presidents’ Day, management might be miffed if the departure date is still exactly two weeks after the notice date.

  193. Finders Keepers?*

    What is the rule of thumb regarding anything left behind in a desk drawer by someone who quits or leaves for another job? Do you try to contact them and give it back? Or can someone else in the office now take it?

    For the record I’m not talking about anything personal or valuable. I’m talking about things like novelty binder clips, desk string lights, stress balls, and other knick-knacks. I found a few of these types of things while cleaning out a desk after that employee left.

    2. designbot*

      If they quit and had time to clean out their own desk but didn’t, that’s a choice they made.
      If they were fired and did not get a chance to handle their stuff, that’s different and I’d give things to HR to deliver to them.

  194. D*

    Long time reader, first time caller. ;-) Having just received a hatchet job of a review when the company is cost-cutting/in a hiring freeze, so I expect to be cut in the next couple of months. Am doing a financial triage, updating LinkedIn, etc., but will almost certainly be changing careers.

    Any advice on switching careers that are not the usual? Success stories? Interesting anecdotes? =)

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      If you haven’t already done so, you can use this site’s search function and enter (in quotes) “career change” or “career changes” or “career changers,” all of which will retrieve a lot of posts on this topic. There is no way to filter what you get, unless you also add other search terms on the line, say like “2019” or “May June July” (without the quotes) which might help you retrieve only posts from 2019, or only posts from May, June, or July from any given year. Good luck.

  195. Ginger Baker*

    ^From my experience with my Aspie sister, this description is very apt…and applies even to changes she WANTS or *will* (once she adjusts) be happy with. Just wanted to pull out that one thread because I think it can be helpful to remember that even though adjusting to change may bring about some emotional reactions, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ve done anything wrong or should take that personally (so long as, per the above comments, you’ve been Very Direct and Clear). (For example, my sister was VERY upset when I wanted to buy a couch to put in a room that had not had one ever…I cannot explain how upset…but a week later would not have traded that couch for the entire world because the previous room setup actually didn’t function well for anyone [it wasn’t that she liked that setup in any great way; she didn’t].)

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