open thread – May 1-2, 2020

by Alison Green on May 1, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Red Tape Producer*

    Question for anyone who has accepting a role they shouldn’t have: what’s the best way to approach a new role that is a step backwards career wise?

    For context: I was offered a secondment opportunity with a prestigious organization within my organization that typically would look really impressive on a resume. I originally wanted to turn down the role because the interview was full of red flags, the biggest being the fact they couldn’t give me any real details on the role I was interviewing for because it was “still developing”. I ignored the red flags on the advice of people I trusted and, now that the transfer paperwork is done and I can’t back out, I’m being told the role is actually not related to my skillset or career at all. All the other team members hired for the same role come from completely different backgrounds (think one senior teapot designer and the rest are senior teapot admin support) and while the duties are still “evolving” everything their doing currently is basic support work. The secondment will be for at least a year, but they hinted it might be more like 18 months.

    I’m worried this is going to be a black hole in my resume, secondments are supposed to be all about building your skillset and taking on more responsibility. I’m also missing out on leading some really big projects at my home ministry that will be going ahead later this year (post lockdown). I’m trying, desperately, to find a way to see this as a good move. Any tips?

    1. OtterB*

      Is it that the role you are intended to fill is not related to your skillset or career, or is it that the temporary duties while the role is still “evolving” are not related? I’m guessing it’s the latter, since you don’t know what it will be in the future once it finishes “evolving.”

      Can you look for opportunities to be learning something in the meantime? Do the support duties give you exposure to a new part of the organization? Can you learn something from the other team members about other parts of the organization or other roles?

      Otherwise, I think you have to just keep following up on what the duties are supposed to become. Possibly they intended to have something solidly in place sooner than this but the pandemic has pulled away the attention of the people who have to approve it.

      1. Red Tape Producer*

        I think the former, although it’s still really unclear (I’m getting forwarded a lot of emails where the manager of my team is asking other teams “what can we do to help? Let us know how we can support you!”). I don’t see a lot of opportunity to transition or take on more complex work, just because the other team members don’t have a research or policy background.

        I honestly don’t mind doing some mindless busy work if it’s needed, my current role is dead at the moment and any work would be a nice change, but a year is a lifetime in the kind of work I do. I’m trying to figure out how to avoid this becoming a big hole in my resume (I’m looking at moving into a more senior role in the next year or two).

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        To add onto this, do you think there’s a way for you to work with whoever will be managing you to add some duties to your role that are more in your wheelhouse? I accepted a role almost a year ago with my current company that wasn’t clearly defined yet either because they were still trying to figure out exactly what kind of help they needed. Well, I came in with a very specific (some may say “narrow”) skillset, and I ended up creating my own projects, processes, and initiatives (PPI) that play to my strengths, and was very fortunate that my direct manager, dotted line manager, and senior management agreed that my PPIs are valuable and necessary to the functioning of my division and team.

    2. Kimmybear*

      Been there. I did 15 months on a project team within my organization that turned out to be a huge mistake. But now I’ve been back to my “home” department for over 18 months and even though there are challenges, I’m happy where I am. How did I get back? I went to a friend in my home department, explained my challenges and basically said I was going to start looking for a new job. She ran to her boss and found a way to bring me back home, even though the project wasn’t even close to done. That may not work for you given organizational politics and process but give it a shot, see if you can make the job something you want, and keep an ear to ways to go home. Good luck!

      1. Red Tape Producer*

        This is a great idea! I know my current manager was hesitant to approve the transfer, she was actually the only one that didn’t think I was crazy for thinking about turning it down, so I could probably contact her about coming back early.

        I’m getting the feeling this new team had a “hire as many people as possible now, figure out what exactly we need them for later” policy. If this is true, I’m going to push hard to return to my team by Fall. If they can’t even figure out what the team is supposed to do, I can’t imagine I’m going to be desperately needed to keep things running. I’m definitely going to be needed when things get busy again in my home ministry in September/October though.

    3. Tex*

      First, if the role is still developing, maybe you could have input into designing specific skills or areas you want to specialize in? Sometimes, all you have to do is ask the right person or just act like it was a given when you agreed to the role that some components would involve x or y and you took on the role with that understanding.
      Second, never underestimate getting experience in a second area even if it seems unrelated. It could be useful years down the line. For example, strategy is a sexy sounding role, but most higher up roles value actual operational experience. Lastly, if you are truly unhappy, in a couple months can you get your former boss to ask for you back because of ‘critical skills’ or experience that you could bring to those high profile projects at your old organization?

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I think in this situation I’d go with something along the lines of the role not being a fit for you or your skillset professionally, although initially it seemed to be? And that the role developed very differently than either you or the organization expected.

  2. James Brewster*

    What’s the best way to explain a lengthy employment gap due to taking care of a sick family member?

    I’ve had a year-and-a-half employment gap after leaving my last employer to take care of my mother who suffered a stroke a while back. My uncle also died and left us a hefty inheritance so I was able to use that money along with my own personal savings to take some time off to help my mom out. She’s made great progress since then and I’ve decided to look for full-time work again. I’m only 30; my last office job which I left was for three years (prior to that, I worked retail for five years while in college) so it’s not like I’m unreliable or have a history of job hopping.

    Regarding cover letters, I’ve thought about stating something brief like “After recently taking time off to care for a sick family member which has since resolved…” and then focus on my skills and prior accomplishments. Is this good enough or should I state it differently? Also, since some employers don’t bother reading cover letters, should I mention something about the gap on my resume under my company description (that way, HR reps/hiring managers don’t wonder what the heck happened when they see that I’ve been out of work for so long).

    I’ve read that some employers will judge you negatively, while others won’t care as much. Will I need to start over at the bottom (say, a part-time grocery job) and work my way back up to prove that I’m reliable again?

    Thanks you for your insight and experience regarding my situation!
    -James Brewster

    1. Daniel*

      You probably won’t need to start from the bottom. Your explanation is fine, but I think my only advice is to make it a little more readable.

      “I recently took time off to take care of a sick family member, which has been resolved.” Or:

      “I recently took time off to take care of a sick family member. Now that has been resolved…”

      1. DuckDuck*

        I have a little bit of a different take. I would be specific. I wouldn’t just say ‘family member’ I would say ‘mother.’ In an interview I would specifically say ‘my mother had a stroke.’

        The reason is that people often use the ‘I was a carer’ line to cover absences with a less palatable explanation. It’s become a cliche to the point it looks suss to some hiring managers.

        People leave it vague because they are actually not comfortable lying so they just say ‘sick family member’ or ‘caring’ and hope no one probes. The more detail you give the more it appears your story is true. The sick relative really does exist if you can name the family member and illness. Less likely to be a potential lie if you’re specific.

        1. Overeducated*

          I agree. Since it was a parent you’re unlikely to face a career penalty for having kids, which is the only reason I can think of to word it vaguely. The original wording seems a bit awkward to me (“it has since resolved” could be health, or it could be death!) and being direct might be simpler: “I took time off to care for my mother while she recovered from a stroke.”

    2. another Hero*

      I don’t think you should have to start your career over – people do this all the time (parents, for instance), and while they have varied experiences getting back to work for sure, it won’t be a foreign concept to your interviewers. I just made sure to mention “I’ve been caring for a relative and am now available to work” in interviews, but I think a line in your cover letter would probably be sensible. I wouldn’t waste resume real estate on it, but ymmv

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      You should absolutely include something in your cover letter, I think you’ve worded it just fine. There’s no need to mention it on your resume. I find that most employers do read cover letters, and if not they’ll just ask you about your gap, which you can explain as you did in the cover letter.

      Also you most definitely don’t need to start from the bottom again – your past experience doesn’t just disappear. If you’ve done anything to keep up your inside knowledge (reading, papers, trainings, personal projects etc), it’s good to mention it to show that you’ve remained sharp and aren’t rusty.

      It’s not like you decided to sit on your butt for three years because you could – you took care of a sick relative. That’s a perfectly good reason to step out of work, and should have no affect on your perceived reliability, esp since you mention that it’s been resolved. Alison has written a lot on explaining resume gaps/job hunting after a break, you should definitely peruse the backlogs.

      Good luck! I’m glad your mom is doing better.

    4. Library Lady*

      A line in your cover letter should be fine—it would if I were screening. I’d be looking for an explanation if your resume had a gap, and the cover letter is the first place I’d look. Taking care of a family member is a perfectly cromulent reason. It would be much more likely to hurt you if you couldn’t explain. Good luck in your job search!

    5. Pretzelgirl*

      I doubt it will effect you negatively. Some people also take time off to be a stay at home parent and go back to work when the kids are older. I have seen a couple of people recently go back to work and did fine! I doubt it will cause much of an issue for you.

      There also might be a space on any applications you have to fill out. “Tell us what you did during employment gaps, Why did you leave your last job etc.”

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      Jumping on the bandwagon to say that it’s fine to explain in your cover letter that you took time off to care for a sick relative and now that this situation is resolved, you’re eager to get back to work. No one should expect you to start off as a part-time grocery clerk if you’ve held more advanced jobs and have a track record of performing well at them. If you are careful to list your accomplishments in your past jobs in your resume, it should be clear that you have the skills and experience necessary to a job at your current career level.

    7. sequined histories*

      I think briefly acknowledging it that way makes sense.
      At the risk of violating the nitpick rule, I can’t help but suggest “who has since recovered” in the place of “which has since resolved.”

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I like that much better. “Which has since resolved” could mean, um, the other thing rather than the person recovering, so might be awkward.

    8. Quinalla*

      I think your cover letter is fine and it is highly unlikely you will have to start over, maybe not start exactly where you were, but not start over for sure.

      My recommendation for this kind of situation is just state the facts and don’t get overly defensive or worried about explaining it. I was part of an interview once with someone who had been on break and we thought we was fine except she kept basically pre-apologizing for all the training we’d have to do to bring her up to speed after a long absence – granted it was several years to raise kids to school age – but still it was way, way excessive and to be frank ended up being a strike against her. If she’d just stuck with the explanation and eagerness to get back in the game, it would have been fine.

    9. voluptuousfire*

      Saying you were the caregiver for a sick parent to explain the gap is fine. Put that in your cover letter. I’ve eve seen people put that as their most recent “role” on their resume. Some states even have it where the family member gets paid to take care of their relative by the state’s Medicaid. So in that case, it actually was your job for x time.

      1. MayLou*

        Don’t put it as your most recent role, or include it on your resume. It certainly is work, in that it’s an important and often difficult thing to do, but it is not the same as an employed job and it might look like you don’t recognise that difference. The covering letter is the place for that sort of information, as part of the overall narrative of your journey to applying to the post.

    10. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      In addition to all these other comments – many of my most recent job applications included questions like “reason for leaving most recent employer” etc – which outside of the “left vs. fired” issue, can also be a great space to explain situations like this exact issue! Best of luck!

    11. Alternative Person*

      I don’t think you’ll need to start from the bottom, but you might not be able to go for the most desirable roles immediately. Maybe take a look at temp agencies in your area alongside looking for a regular position.

      Also, you might want to refresh your skills, you don’t say what kind of work you do, but maybe see if there are any relevant free or cheap courses are available (I’d suggest libraries if they were open) and/or read relevant research papers in your area of work.

  3. Half-Caf Latte*

    This question is for families with small children where both parents are still working – what are your plans for the long term, specifically childcare?

    We’re both in healthcare: my spouse (the tall Americano) is onsite at work 75% of the time, and I’ve been able to be fully remote in my role, although the future of that remains unclear. Balancing everything has been an enormous struggle, and while it seemed there was some understanding in the first few weeks, now it seems like my boss expects us to have “figured it out,” and I’m like – literally nothing has changed. One incident included boss refusing to approve my timecard request for the upcoming week on a Sunday, and when I called to clarify, was told it was because I might be needed for an urgent request. There were no details about what the urgent need might be, when, or where, and when I said I needed as much info as was available because I needed to arrange for childcare, I got sternly reminded that working from home is not a sub for childcare, so I should have childcare already. She genuinely couldn’t understand how my childcare needs for an onsite thing would be different than remote.

    We’re starting to talk about reopening, and I’m very stressed that we’ll reopen before childcare does. I’m the only one on my team with small kids, and I don’t know what to do. Do I take a LOA, and hope things work out soon? I’m feeling like live-in help might be our best option.

    I’d love to know how other families in a similar position are approaching this.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      …like what is she expecting you to do? Day cares are closed, schools are closed, you can’t bring people into your home that don’t live there.

      Does your company have a policy regarding the coronavirus? Normally sure, wfh doesn’t count as childcare, but childcare doesn’t really exist right now, and these aren’t normal times.

      Ugh this makes me so mad.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        I pressed pretty hard in my convo with her, and was like – surely you can understand that me working from home and being able to take breaks and supervise intermittently is very different than needing to be onsite or available to go onsite, and there is essentially no childcare right now. You need to register with the state if you want to send your kids to childcare, most places haven’t been able to meet the safety requirements and staff up to open, so I’d be sending them to an unfamiliar location, and the few that are open local-ish weren’t actually an option for me – kiddos too young/no spots/must be potty trained/hours too limited, etc. She doesn’t have kids, wasn’t aware of any of the restrictions, and was just a broken record “there was an email that WFH isn’t a sub for childcare.”

        That email came from the CHRO, who I’ve found to be tone deaf several times of late, although there were other things from more senior leadership that acknowledged the realities of the situation. I’m pretty pissed about that particular incident and plan to let them know in the next employee engagement survey.

        As far as policy, there’s guidance on like- absence due to lack of childcare won’t count against you in the normal absenteeism policy, but it’s also clear that you’re expected to “work with your manager to develop a plan” but my manager has always abdicated her authority as a director and will point to the rules as written. Any sort of flexibility and creativity has always been shot down so I’m not terribly hopeful there.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Uggggghhhhhhhhhh

          Was that email sent pre-covid/shelter in place? Because if so it is out of date and can’t/shouldn’t be used as policy. If for some reason they sent it during it they shelter in place, I’d honestly recommend reaching out to the person Alison mentioned for workplaces behaving badly during covid, because they deserve some shaming if they aren’t offering any flexibility.

          I know you’re already so busy, but if you have any time at all, maybe start some light job-hunting, reach out to some recruiters? Because they sound unreasonable and you might need to get a head start out of there.

          1. Half-Caf Latte*

            I’ve thought about it. In good times, I’m paid very well for the work I do, and the schedule is good for my family. We’re one of the leading health systems in the area, and best positioned to weather this storm. The Tall Americano’s hospital might not be so lucky, which is yet another reason to tough it out.

            Boss’ crappiness is something I was previously able to just work around, COVID has not infected her with empathy or flexibility.

            The email was sent very early in covid but as part of a – here’s how to social distance your team package. I think this was before or just as schools were shutting down. It’s 100% possible that it wasn’t thought through, but if I were to point out the unreasonableness they would say to take it up with boss.

            1. Working Mom*

              I *have* to believe that if you keep pushing on this in an appropriate way they have *got* to see reason. Right?! I mean, even those with older kids – it’s not necessarily realistic to leave a 7th grader home by themselves all day every day. Sure, they probably won’t burn the house down (fingers crossed) but they probably are not going to be getting their school work done either. So I have to imagine that any parents with school-aged children will have similar struggles, even if they are technically old enough to be left home alone. Also, what about families with older kids (like HS aged) but also younger kids? For example – if I have a 17 year old and a 10 year old; can I realistically expect the 17 year old to maintain their own school and also parent/homeschool the 10 year old all day every day?

              I really really really hope that your company agrees to an alternative solution for any parents. Schools and day cares are closed, period. And if day cares re-open, you may or may not be able to secure a spot.

            2. CupcakeCounter*

              So one other option would be your partner to take a LOA instead of you. If yours is the more secure bet, I would have them be the one to bite the bullet and take over the childcare. That would also keep you off the “mommy-track” radar.
              Obviously this is moot if The Tall Americano’s income is significantly higher or you need both incomes.

              1. Half-Caf Latte*

                Was trying to keep it brief, but his work is mission critical to pandemic response, he’s leading clinical decision making. It would be a huge disservice to the clinicians and patients.

                1. Jules the 3rd*

                  In my area, childcare is prioritized for the children of healthcare workers, and they’ve opened some specialty places just for those kids. Can you check whether your husband’s position means you could get childcare at least some of the week?

                  In my area, availability is changing rapidly, so what was true last week may be different today.

                2. allathian*

                  I’m sorry your boss is being an ass in this situation. But yeah, I second the suggestion of looking into daycare based on your husband’s essential job. But yeah, in your shoes I’d be looking for another job, because your boss is being completely tone deaf in this situation.

    2. Kate*

      Not well!

      I am a single parent of a 5 YO. Normally I have FIVE reliable back up plans for childcare. All of them have gone out the window during COVID-19.

      Thankfully I have a much more understanding boss than yours, but I 100% agree that nothing has changed.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        Yes! I feel you on the multiple backups failing.

        1) Both the Tall Americano and I took non-clinical roles in part because we knew both being front line healthcare wasn’t going to be sustainable in the long run with a young family, so we pursued areas of interest that took us away from patient care. Now being told “you work in healthcare you signed up for this” is … maddening.

        2) Daycare is closed, see above comment about the process in my state.

        3)Parents of local teenagers/college kids don’t want them coming to a house that has someone coming to and from the hardest hit hospital it the city, and I get that.

        4) My parents are high risk, and can help but can’t be 40 hours a week solo.

        1. Adele*

          This is not optimal (but what is these days?), but can you and kiddo move in with your parents until childcare reopens? They can watch your child during working hours and you can do before/after work hours. I know this will be hard for you as a family unit, but if your boss is a real asshat about this, it might be a workable solution.

          I would also consider bumping your boss’s ridiculous inflexibility up the chain of command if her boss or her boss’s boss have or had children and are more reasonable.

    3. Nance*

      I feel like “work (or not) what you can and hope it works out” is where so many of us will be if/when this extends even longer. I feel lucky in that my employer is sympathetic and flexible. So if I lose my job it’s because we are in financial trouble/go out of business. Not because I can’t work as much. Which is… some comfort? Ugh.

      School ends in 6 weeks here. Kids are signed up for camp, but I’m not super optimistic about that happening. My back-up plan is to cut back to about 50% at work and do all my hours late at night or early in the morning, so I can be a parent during the day.

      My spouse works full time outside of the home. It’s unlikely he would be able to cut back on his hours.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        I’ve thought about cutting back hours, but I’m worried that in the long run I’m mommy-tracking there, or that I’ll get judged more harshly for it.

        Not to sound like a braggart, but I’m substantially more efficient normally than my peers, and I’ve been able to maintain my usual productivity (some reductions because we’re not doing some projects due to covid) in fewer than 40 hours. I’ve also been actively offering to help my peers with any work they need done, and have pitched in across the team.

        There’s a part of me that’s like – would i really do less work, or would I just be offering to work for less money?

        1. pbnj*

          Yes I’ve had friends who negotiated part-time work in pre-COVID times and pretty much just ended giving themselves a pay cut for doing the same amount of work. I’d say tread carefully, unless your company has a strong track record of adjusting for part-time appropriately.

        2. WellRed*

          I can’t speak to any of the challenges you are facing, but I do want to say, I think you are already being judged harshly.

        3. allathian*

          In that case, quit pitching across the team. Do your job and only your job and ignore the rest. I mean, if someone asks you for a favor, you can say yes if you honestly feel you have the resources to do it. But in this situation, the first thing is to stop volunteering to take on more work. If you can get the same thing done in 25 hours as your colleagues do in 40, take the 15 off to care for your kid.
          Rockstars get pushback because more is expected of them than ordinary plodders. But you’re only shooting yourself in the foot because when circumstances change, the high expectations remain while you’re struggling to meet them.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I really hope Alison chimes in on this because I’m sure I’ve read suggestions from her on just this subject. I just can’t remember where!

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      To be clear, boss requested you to work on a Sunday for an undefined amount of time, for an undefined reason, and then berated you for not being prepared to be available at a moment’s notice?

      In this case, I’d be sorely tempted to say “It appears that I am being asked to be available for a period of time outside of my normally scheduled hours, for a task that hasn’t been defined, so I will be unable to work on it in advance. How will I report my on-call pay hours, and then the OT hours when the task is actually assigned?”

      When boss gets back to you on how you’ll be paid to be available, including the specific hours for which you’ll be working, you’ll then be able to arrange for the darlings to be cared for.

    6. Nita*

      Trying to not think about this right now. There are too many unknowns. But it does look like my office may reopen before child care does. In theory I could request to work from home longer, because my boss is pretty understanding, but realistically – there is no way I can put in 32 hours from home with three kids and no child care. I’ve only been making it work because my husband happened to be on leave from work when NYC shut down, but his leave runs out soon and I don’t know what we will do then. Especially if he has to physically go back to work. So far his department is working remotely, but who knows how long they will keep it up – they’re support for an essential service, so they may be brought back sooner rather than later.

    7. Meg*

      I’m so sorry. I can’t believe that people are being so shitty to parents…I don’t have kids and honestly that sounds like a nightmare to me. I know I shouldn’t be surprised, but it’s infuriating to me that people don’t get that.

      Stepping off my soapbox, I don’t know a ton of the details, but I do know that the CARES act included expanded family leave options, and my understanding is those apply to you if daycares/schools are closed. It may be worth a discussion with your HR (if you have one) about what your options are.

      I’m sorry that you’re going through this. And for the record, you’re doing an amazing job. You’re killing it. Your kids are still alive, and that’s literally the only standard you need to worry about right now.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        Thanks. I appreciate it. I haven’t broached with HR, but maybe I should.

        2. Triumphant Fox*

          Absolutely. I don’t know if this is universal, but my work has made it clear that you can use the leave intermittently – you don’t have to be out for weeks straight. You can take days off here and there or hours each day. One of my reports is taking 2 hours off every day and flexing his hours so that his spouse can maintain her much more demanding job. He’s been taking paid time off intermittently for full days off but then doing COVID PTO (which is paid at 2/3, so it’s still not ideal).

          I’m in the hard situation where my daycare HAS NOT CLOSED. It is still open and has been since a week into COVID and so I don’t have any of these options available. I cannot say “well I have no options, so I have to make this work.” We are both working, but my partner is a professor with a lot of flexibility (especially after this week – thank god) and we moved in with my in laws during the week and spend weekends at our house to give everyone a break. I am trying to figure out how long we keep our kids out of the daycare we pay for because I really don’t think it’s safe (and most parents are doing the same – I think there are maybe 8 children total there now.)

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        Stepping off my soapbox, I don’t know a ton of the details, but I do know that the CARES act included expanded family leave options, and my understanding is those apply to you if daycares/schools are closed. It may be worth a discussion with your HR (if you have one) about what your options are.

        I was coming here to mention this. Look into it, OP (though it may not apply depending on the size of your employer).

        1. Half-Caf Latte*

          Oh wait is this the stuff that caps at 500 employees? We’re way over that threshold, and there’s no way they’d ever make a blanket “we’re enacting this anyway” decision, because, frankly, if too many staff don’t come to work we put the public at risk. In healthcare the attitude has always sort of been “you’re on your own and expected to figure out your life and come to work no matter what”, and at my Org that attitude is being applied to clinical and non clinical roles.

          1. Half-Caf Latte*

            It might be worth a convo with HR to see if they get that they’re making it nearly impossible, though.

          2. pbnj*

            It still might be worth a discussion with HR or a higher manager. Every workplace is different, but I would consider telling HR that you are able to be productive and are getting your work done, but of course you are unable to get child care due to Covid. Use the words “of course” since that calls in a subtle way attention that your manager is being bananas. It sounds a bit like she is retaliating against you, so it may be worth to get this stuff documented.

        2. Quinalla*

          Just for the record, your boss is being ridiculous. Even if these were normal times, you still need to know some info to arrange childcare, what the heck?

          Apply for FMLA, my SIL did so she could take time off with her son who was not in school or able to go to any childcare as her boss was being an asshole in a different way about it. If your boss isn’t going to be flexible, to hell with it IMO.

          My husband and I both are working and childcare is not open yet here (except for limited essential workers). We are just continuing to WFH as neither of our workplaces is requiring or even encouraging anyone to rush back even though our offices can open with social distancing, etc. next week. Both our workplaces fully expect anyone with kids to be doing this because most have no childcare option at the moment and are asking everyone what they need regardless as folks might have other reasons they can’t come back in some/all the time.

    8. Work-life unbalanced*

      No advice, but sympathy. Not in healthcare, but my organization is arguing we’re essential. So I’m in the same boat as the only person with a small child. I’m drowning. Whereas my colleagues are more productive than usual. Knowing this is where I’d be, I submitted a request for leave when the policy came out, and was told off the record if I went through it the request, it’d be denied. So my org seems to be doubling down on lack of childcare is your issue to handle, and while my manager told me privately he can be flexible with expectations, in practice this has sadly not been the case. I’ve been with the org <1 year, and it's depressing to think that, at this rate and with these expectations, I'm probably headed toward a performance improvement plan or being first in line if they decide to do layoffs.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        It’s so frustrating. I keep hoping this is the event that makes us collectively wake up and realize we need social supports for all sorts of reasons, but I have this nagging dread that the lesson learned will be how resilient and bootstrappy individual Americans ought to be.

    9. Koala dreams*

      Can your spouse take next week off from their work to take care of the kids? Your boss is both unreasonable and uninformed (which is a bit scary considered that your work in healthcare), is your spouse’s boss more reasonable? I don’t know exactly what kind of leave you can take in the US for child-care reasons, hopefully the manager or HR at your spouse’s workplace can help find a solution.

      If your boss continues to demand you to be on call all week, you might need to decide which one of you to take long time leave from work to take care of the children. The other solution I’ve heard of is parents working different shifts. If you can each have different shifts, and your spouse can keep on working 75 %, one of you can be at home with the children at all times. It sounds exhausting to me, but some parents have choose this even in pre-pandemic times when they couldn’t find other child-care. I’m thinking you might be able to do this for a month or two waiting for being allowed to hire a nanny or send the children to childcare.

      I’d also suggest talking to your co-workers and push back as a group. If there’s a professional associaton or an union you’re a member of, maybe you can find out from them how other companies deal with similar issues (assigning shifts last minute, extreme on-call demands, lack of flexibility for parents), and some arguments the employees there used when talking to management.

      1. Koala dreams*

        I wanted to add that if your employer refuses to assign shifts in advance, it will of course be impossible for you to take turns looking after the children and working. I understand that. I just wanted to include it as an example of what people with decent and helpful bosses could do.

      2. Half-Caf Latte*

        Spouse is working 16-18 hour days leading clinical pandemic response 7 days a week. I forgot to mention that in my effort to keep this brief…

        1. Koala dreams*

          I’m sorry to hear that. It seems that both of your workplaces are determined to make life as hard as possible for parents. In that case I would recommend you to contact an employment lawyer or the union (if that’s applicable) and see if you (any of you two) have a right to take leave from work to care for your children, and how to apply for that leave. If no such right exists, one of you will probable need to resign. Before resigning, your spouse should ask for leave to take care of the children,if they haven’t already, since some employers are reasonable and prepared to help their employees.

          It’s unfortunate that health care will have less people responsing to the pandemic, but that’s the reality of being a parent. You need to put the needs of your children first, and the needs of work later. If your employer really needed your work, they wouldn’t treat you so horribly. Your employers don’t deserve your work if they can’t treat you well, and demanding you to be on call 7 days 24 hours a day for one days work (in your case) or demanding work 16-18 hours a day 7 days a week (in the case of yours spouse) is long past the “treating workers bad” threshold, even if you didn’t have children.

          Take care! I hope you both find other work as soon as possible.

          1. Koala dreams*

            I’m sorry if I sound harsh. I’m sorry for you, and I understand that you have a hard time. I’m angry with your employer, not with you. I wish I had a better answer… You have my sympathy!

    10. Hillary*

      I don’t have kids, but most of my friends are making it work with a combination of hand offs between parents and extra screen time. But they’re all 100% WFH now, and we’re all senior enough to control our own schedules.

      My brother and SIL are both in healthcare, fortunately with predictable schedules. He’s 25-50% onsite and she’s 100% onsite. The 4-year-old’s daycare is open but they can’t send the kindergartner there. Their isolation venn diagram includes both grandmas and my SIL’s brother (I probably had it in early march and still have some shortness of breath, so I’m out until that resolves). It’s not a good answer since my dad has respiratory problems, but it’s the best we’ve got.

    11. Half-Caf Latte*

      I want to thank everyone who offered your suggestions – I hope I don’t seem as though I was just shooting them down, I’ve had a lot of time to try to come up with a plan over the last 2 months and have considered a lot of options already.

      I think the fact that the Tall Americano’s work is so essential to his org makes this really hard for us – he hasn’t had a day off in over two months, and is working nonstop. Even if he took a day off, he’d get nonstop calls and questions, and it’s all things which really can’t wait. What I’m really worried about is if I’m expected to go back into the office before there’s childcare. Work and home are in different states, and there’s coordination but since I work for a hospital all staff are deemed essential anyway. I just keep hoping there’s some solution out there I haven’t already thought of.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        No suggestions since you’ve already put so much thought into it, but sympathy. Your manager’s sucking right now.

      2. Koala dreams*

        Thank you for explaining the situation! I understand it’s hard when you’re working for a toxic employer. You have done good work just recognizing the situation. In the future, you’ll learn to make better boundaries between work and home, and learn to tell the misplaced loyality to work to go away and stop ruining your life. But it’ll take time.

        As for your spouse, they can shut down the phone on their days off, when they eventually get them. Some people also like to put their phone in a box, like a prison cell for the phone, to remind themself to focus on their children and not get enchanted by their phones, their work and the demands of toxic bosses. I’m actually looking for a suitable box for my phone. I want it to have a soft inside so the phone can sleep well after I shut it off. In my case I get stuck on less stressful things, but I still think the box will go well.

      3. allathian*

        Your spouse’s doing essential work in healthcare. You’re also in healthcare. If there’s anyone who has a right to external childcare right now, it’s you.
        That’s why childcare facilities are mostly empty of kids, to provide as safe as possible a place for the children of healthcare workers and other essential services.
        Children are also the demographic that’s least likely to need ICU care, if they do get sick. If your child is basically healthy, with no chronic conditions that would make them high-risk, I think it might be worth looking into.
        I know it’s anecdotal, but my child-free boss was the least sympathetic of the three I’ve had as a mother. When my son first started daycare, he was sick a lot of the time and both my boss and my then-coworker complained loudly about that. My husband was in a job that required a lot of travel, so it was I who mostly had to stay home with the kid. The second one was a grandmother herself and I never got any pushback from her on any flexibility I needed (and was entitled to, according to the terms of our collective agreement). My current boss is great, she has two daycare-age kids. Thankfully my son’s very healthy now, and he hasn’t even had a sniffle now that we’ve all been sheltering in place.

    12. Elspeth Mcgillicuddy*

      Bring the kids with you, and leave them with your boss while you work? I recommend ice cream and candy for breakfast, it’ll make the whole day more entertaining.

      Ok, don’t do that. But dream about it whenever your boss is unreasonable.

      1. Jean (just Jean)*

        +1 and equip the kids with drums and kazoos…
        Seriously, Half-Caf Latte, AAM readers are sending you sympathetic thoughts. I’m sure I speak for others who have not commented. Your boss needs to be set straight about modern parents and the current no-child-care-no-how-no-where landscape. Lots of good wishes to you.

    13. charo*

      This is a great time to find a childcare person who can appreciate some cash now, before facilities open again — IF you can be sure you all stay healthy. If you find someone, they can be a great backup to the daycare. Don’t you ever need a babysitter for “date night” when there’s not a Pandemic going on?

      And if you work from home do you even need daycare? Or can someone come to your house? Daycare costs a lot, this may be a great time to give someone work at your house.

      1. charo*

        Don’t assume people can only be good in one area. I moved to NYC to be a live-in nanny, because I wanted to live there for a while, but soon found there were plenty of publishing jobs for me so I shifted into that, which was my main profession. I had done childcare and been a Big Sister but had worked in publishing, too.
        A childcare job for cash might be a nice option for someone who’s older, or freelance writes, whatever. As long as she can commit to childcare and enjoys it.

  4. Hermione*

    Any suggestions for how to deal with conflicting timelines when job searching? A few years ago, I got a job offer from one place and I was waiting to hear back from a different job. The first job wanted a really quick turnaround for a decision, and wouldn’t extend that deadline. In retrospect, I didn’t handle this situation super well, and am wondering if anyone has any suggestions for future me?

    1. Annony*

      It sound like in that situation you need to decide if the chance to work at company B is worth turning down company A. It sucks that their timelines didn’t match up, but that is often the case. Many companies are not going to be excited to hear that you would prefer to work somewhere else and that they are your back up plan.
      Now if all you need are a few extra days you can possibly stretch their timeline out by asking more questions about the job and compensation if they haven’t given you all that information earlier. Don’t mention the other company when you ask for time to evaluate their offer though.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      You could also reach out to company A and tell them that you have a job offer from a different company that you need to respond to, but you’d prefer to work for company A, is there any way they could speed things up/give you an update on their timeline, etc? (Use more professional language of course, Alison has some good scripts.)

      They might not be able to and you’re still left debating bird in the hand vs two in the bush, but if they are interested in you it could bump a pending offer up.

    3. Deja vu*

      I’ve also handled this poorly in the past – I agree with the other comments here though: reach out to the company you don’t have an offer from yet. Something like “I wanted to give you a heads up that I have another offer on the table with a deadline of X. Your company is my first choice so I wanted to keep you in the loop. Is there an expected timeline for making a decision?” I failed to send a message like this and ended up getting the offer I wanted a few days after signing paperwork for my second choice :-/. Ultimately though, you’ll have to accept the fact that your preferred company may not be able to make a decision any faster.

      1. Working Mom*

        I once had an EE in this situation – she took the first job offer b/c she couldn’t guarantee the better choice would offer her a job. 2-3 weeks later the better company offered her a job, so she took that one and gave her notice at the first one. Everyone around me talked about how awful she was and how could she possibly do that?! I defended her – loudly and vocally to anyone. I couldn’t imagine being stuck in that situation – she had to do what was best for HER family, and no one can judge her for that! At least that’s what I thought… am I on an island with this perspective?

        1. Hermione*

          To be honest, when I said “I didn’t handle this situation super well”, I did exactly that. To be fair, it was less than a week later, and the start date wasn’t for another couple of months, but I do have regrets with how I handled things… especially given what Alison was pointed out about that behaviour on this blog!

          As someone who’s done this, I understand both sides. Job hunting is hard… it feels stupid to turn down an offer in the hopes of something better… but if the better fit does work out, isn’t is better for everyone in the long run to take it? On the other hand, it’s super flaky and puts the hiring manager in a super tough spot. (And also as Alison pointed out: Could you imagine if you got a job offer recinded bcause their first choice candidate suddenly became available?)

        2. Hiring Mgr*

          I did the same thing about 15 yrs ago… Accepted an offer, but then the job I really wanted came through with an offer a couple days after I accepted…. So I rescinded my acceptance. Felt horrible, and. burned a bridge of course, but in the end it was the right decision.

    5. allathian*

      I handled these things badly, too. To the point that I literally couldn’t apply for more than one job at a time. I had to wait the agonizing process out. I can’t remember how long I waited until I decided that they weren’t going to invite me to an interview, as happened most of the time… Finally I saw two ads for jobs that I wanted just about as much, so I applied to both. During my first week at one job, the second org invited me to an interview. I thanked them and said that I’d just started work somewhere else and that was that. I’m still working for them.

  5. bubbleon*

    I’m really struggling with the layoffs our company decided to make this week. We already have more teapot painters than teacup painters and the majority of our business comes from teacups. Why are we firing people from that team???? They all make roughly the same salary and teacups are significantly more profitable and easier to sell, it makes absolutely no sense.

    Our management still hasn’t figured out that there’s such a thing as too lean and they’re going to start running people off again. The teacup team was already expected to be at capacity for the next few months, adding to their workload now of all times is going to be a disaster.

    I’m a tea set designer so I don’t even have skin in this particular decision but boy if it hasn’t opened my eyes and made me realize how long ago I should’ve been polishing up my resume. Ugh.

    1. LGC (supervisor of teacup painters)*

      …I had to deal with this exact situation in February. In our case, they let loose “lower-performing” teacup painters, in addition to some teapot painters…but the cause of the layoffs was (superficially) that we weren’t going to get any more teapots to paint. I was not pleased since I’d been pushing for months to get more slots for teacup painting, and we actually make more revenue from teacup painting than teapot painting even though we had over twice as many teapot painters.

      The way my manager explained it to me, it was a pretty unique situation – since I work for a mission-based social enterprise, we have requirements on who should be employed. And in this case, management prioritized the mission – they were more likely to release employees who fell outside of the mission’s scope. I still don’t like it, but it made more sense when it was put that way to me. And it turned out that we were able to transfer over a couple of teapot painters as replacements.

      1. bubbleon*

        I wish I could get a straightforward answer like that, unfortunately it’s not the case here. I’ve got some insight into performance and know the ones who were let go weren’t the lowest performers, but I have my suspicions about the motives for some of the decisions. We could, in theory, transfer teapot painters, but if that had been the plan (which I doubt) they would’ve had to be trained by now in order to pick up the slack.

        1. LGC*

          …to be fair, the main reason my boss told me is because I supervise the teacup team! So I was on the need-to-know list. In addition, since I also do some basic analytics and run the invoices for all of our porcelain projects, I already had some insight into the situation. And I’m still pretty sure she didn’t tell me the whole truth, because those were not the people I would have laid off.

          But hearing part of the thinking did help me realize that layoffs aren’t just about performance, and – unfortunately – what you see on the ground might not be what upper management sees from their perspective.

    2. WearingManyHats*

      I wish I had a good answer, but at least know you aren’t alone. My company is pivoting strategies without considering the core needed to keep everyone running imho. I’m HR but not asked much about strategic decisions so now my job is basically laying people off and running what payroll is left.

      Good luck in your search!

    3. TV*

      I think a lot of layoffs have unintended consequences. The layoffs in my department happened to coordination managers who were at retirement eligibility (though not age, one was in his late 40’s and this is the only company he has ever worked for). While these managers weren’t a direct link in the the chain to produce products aka they weren’t teapot makers, painters, etc, they did a lot of the behind the scenes stuff to run the program. So what you have left is a supply chain but no one managing them. I’m keeping my eyes open for other positions because I have no idea how we are going to function like this.
      The layoffs in the rest of the organization, while some of the positions eliminated made sense because we weren’t going to fund them long term, some just seemed…convenient given how much of a fuss those individuals made over the years.

    4. Nesprin*

      It’s amazing how valuable good management is. We sell tea cups too, and management keeps the house painter around since he’s golf buddies with management and might be useful for teacup painting someday in the future. grrrrrrrrrr.

  6. Sunflower*

    Checking in on folks who were unhappy/job searching before shutdown.

    How are you guys staying hopeful?

    I feel extremely defeated right now and like my life(both in and out of work) is stuck at a standstill while time moves past me. It’s super disheartening as I’m a generally hopeful person. When I’m feeling down, I can always put together an actionable plan for change- But now it feels like there is no change possible for near future. Being patient and riding things out is something I struggle with- and I’ve already been doing for almost a year in this job. I know why we’re shut down and agree but everyday it goes on, it feels like the time it will take for the job market to pick up multiplies. Hope everyone’s hanging in and eager to hear how you’re keeping spirits up.

    1. Anonandon*

      This may or may not be helpful to you but my honest answer is: therapy. It helps to have someone outside the situation remind me that there is still hope and eventually, at least by law of averages, there WILL be another company that wants me. I was in late stages of interviewing for a position and a company I knew I would LOVE when all this hit. That was a huge blow to me. My therapist has helped me put into perspective that “on hold” is not “rejected.”

    3. Unsolicited*

      I interviewed for two jobs in March, just as my home state started shutting down. To date, I’ve received one rejection and an announcement that the other job is indefinitely on hold. There are very, very few job posts for anything in my wheelhouse now, so I’ve paused my job hunt.

      Right now, I am focused on building up my resume via remote volunteering, certifications, conferences, etc. It’s tough to spend hours seated in front of a computer listening to recordings, taking notes and completing assessments.

      If you don’t mind, could you share what would typically be your action plan? How are you getting by in your job?

    4. MissGirl*

      I’m struggling too. I changed jobs in the fall. At my old job, had I stayed, I would’ve been right in the swing of things doing stuff that had a real and measurable impact on a hospital financial system.

      At my new job, I’m supporting a group that has been largely shut down. I keep hearing About all these amazing projects other people are working on but I can’t. I’ve asked to be included several times because I have a really appropriate skillset but they’re going to other teams more in the thick of it and with more time at the company.

      So I’m channeling all my work ambition into my side hustle. I have two self-pub books out. I’m about to launch a third and I’ve written half of another in two weeks.

      But I’m still ridiculously excited that elective surgeries are starting back up in my area. That means my workload should hopefully come back.

    5. living-in-colour*

      Glad to know I’m not alone, haha :) I’ve been at my company since graduating from college almost 5 years ago and have been in various states of distress the entire time. These last couple of weeks have left me feeling more trapped than I’ve ever felt before. I should have left long ago, but I’m still here because a) job searching fucks with my mental health and b) they keep throwing money at me to get me to stay. But I just don’t know how much longer I can take it. Leadership is terrible and I’ve been pushed into projects I told them I didn’t want to do (in my annual review no less) but here I am, under constant pressure to do more and more. I fantasize about quitting but then remember I have medications I need to pay for, and I’m 26 so can’t go back on my parents insurance plan.

      It’s a long story and not unique by any means, I just feel so trapped and don’t see a way out.

    6. Alex*

      It’s tough. All the places I was looking to work now have an official hiring freeze in place so…

    7. Kramerica Industries*

      +1 for solidarity.

      Just want to add that it’s okay to be unhappy in your job right now. “At least you have a job” is not the kind of optimism that people think it is. Keep on searching!

    8. Hotdog not dog*

      Yup, this. I was laid off in January due to restructuring. Since then two offers were rescinded thanks to Covid 19. I’m still looking very actively, interviewing via Skype, and just doing my best to keep myself together. Sometimes it helps to remind myself that so far in life things have worked out, so there’s every possibility that they will work out this time too. Hang in there, you’re not alone!

    9. SheLooksFamiliar*

      I’m about to lose my job thanks to Covid-19, and admit I have mixed feelings. I’m almost 60 years old, and have been in corporate staffing for my entire career. Before I took this job I was thinking about changing fields, but now I don’t think that’s feasible. If I’m going to find another job this year, it’ll need to be in talent acquisition. Except I don’t think that’s feasible, either, for obvious reasons. I’ve been networking for the past month and I don’t see opportunities for my level of experience.

      So I hear you, Sunflower! Part of me wants to take time this summer to think and plan for a career makeover. Things aren’t going to suddenly come roaring back to life in the job market anytime soon, so I’ll have time. And things WILL get better – they always have, right? – so I should be ready. I might need to go back to school for a different degree, but it’s a thought I can’t shake.

      1. allathian*

        I’m sorry. But I think it’s encouraging that you’re thinking about going back to school at an age where most are thinking of retirement (whether or not they’re in a position to actually take it).

    10. Susie Q*

      I was doing well with an application process for another job. But it’s been paused with Covid 19 and who knows when it’ll pick back up again. The process will take more than a couple of months. We are trying to plan on when to try to get pregnant again. But you have to work at most places for a year to qualify for FMLA. It’s really depressing that I have to think about things like this when family planning.

    11. Potatoes gonna potate*

      I’m feeling the same as you are but on a personal level. Haven’t quite reached the defeated feeling in work related yet. It doesn’t help that the majority of advice I read here and in other spaces is “don’t quit your job if you already have one!” >> what about those that lost it because of this. Hoping things get better soon <3

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m pushing hard on resume-building projects at the current job to be honest. I spent too much time temping during a recession to be comfortable losing seniority in the current economy. But I do plan to start sending the resume out and taking some tentative steps to be prepared in case they start pushing to have us go back before schools are open.

    13. August*

      Same. I’ve been wanting out of my current job since the first couple of months, but actually turned down a lower-paying (but much more engaging) job back in January because I was certain I could find something with better pay. Now…not so much. Very mixed regrets here. Trying to stay optimistic, but feeling grateful for a paycheck doesn’t negate how much I dislike the job itself.

      1. miho*

        same… I’ve been at my current job for almost a year now, and three months into it, I knew that it wasn’t the right fit for me. I forced myself to stay at least one year to buff up my resume (and also because I was holding out hope that things would get better at this job). I was offered another opportunity back in February, but turned it down because that organization didn’t seem like a good fit either. I had my regrets for a while, but I recently heard that the organization is currently furloughing the entire team (and will most likely lay them off soon). I am still not very happy at my current position, but at least I am employed and dodged a potential bullet with this other org.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t know that I am hopeful. :\

      I’m still applying for jobs, and I’ve started applying out of state again (since hey, there’s no excuse for not supporting telecommuting right now, and I’m willing to relocate as soon as it’s safe, and saying so). But I’m just getting rejected. I can’t tell if I suck, the job sucks, or if they’re just posting to have something to do and not actually hiring. It kinda feels like people are just sitting around on their VPN waiting to reject my application.

      It’s bad enough no one will hire me because I’m unemployed, but the pandemic is making that worse. I can’t even say I’m unemployed due to the pandemic. I fought so hard to get out of food service, and now I’m fighting to get out of the admin pool, but it’s just a hole with Teflon sides and it’s filling up with water. :(

    15. Middle Manager*

      It’s hard, but I’m really trying to stay focused on being grateful that I have a job and it’s one that I can safely do from home. I’m not pollyanna-ish about it, I recognize that while there are some deeply rooted cultural issues with my office and the pandemic has in many ways exacerbated them, at the moment it’s definetly the lesser of two evils (the greater being unable to work at all or having to work in a job with a big exposure risk).

      One of the things that has helped me re-frame it is that I’m getting a chance to do work outside my normal scope that will make me more marketable in the long term. Is there a way you might be able to take an online class now with your stimulus check or do something else that will set up long term to get a new job when we’re back to the new normal?

      Hang in there. It’s hard all around not to get demoralized right now!

      1. Aggretsuko*

        I’m with Middle Manager: at this point I’m lucky to be employed at all, and I probably won’t get laid off because we are SO short staffed. Now I feel fortunate that I hadn’t gotten a job elsewhere that might not have kept me on after all. I don’t think I will ever get a “creative” job now because I’m so lucky mine isn’t expendable. I think I’m always going to make sure I’m in something that isn’t easily canned.

      2. Lonely Aussie*

        I have so much guilt around that. Hate my job and manger at the mo, but so many people don’t.

    16. designbot*

      yeah… after a bad review last year and some difficulties with one of our partners, I had a conversation with him where I literally said, “If you don’t think I belong here please tell me now, because I would hate to be job searching a year from now when there are fewer opportunities” and he assured me that wasn’t the case… however, I feel that way more than ever. So hey, you know, I’m now in exactly the position I did not want to be in, multiplied by a pandemic!

    17. MissDisplaced*

      Eh! I mean I was looking, but being very selective. Still doing same.
      Thus far, my company has handled things pretty well during this time. So much so, that even if states are re-opening, we still are keeping our facilities in those states closed and we’re under WFH with the exception of necessary field staff.

      My unhappiness was more with WFH being curtailed, and some leadership. But now it’s all WFH so I’m actually much happier with my work overall.

    18. RemoteHealthWorker*

      The way I see it. Only the best run companies are hiring right now. Sure at first it was disheartening to go from so many choices it was overwhelming to 6-8 open roles but now I just remind myself cream rises to the top. Half my work has been done for me.

    19. EndlessFiling*

      Not me, but my father lost his job at the end of 2019 and had not found a new one yet by the time all this mess came around. We were all very stressed about it, since he supports my brother. He now does delivery driving all day long (through one of those fancy delivery apps, not through a restaurant) as a temporary fix, but he enjoys it so much he told me that he was dreading going back to what he did before. He loves to drive and it gives him something productive and meaningful to do during the quarantine.

      I know not everyone’s situation is the same, but I just wanted to share something more positive.

      1. allathian*

        If he can support himself and your brother delivery driving, why not make it a more permanent job? Many people will continue to order food online even after the restrictions are lifted, because it’s so easy and practical, especially with an app where you can follow your order.

        1. allathian*

          Casual workers rarely get benefits, I understand that… I wasn’t thinking.

    20. Lonely Aussie*

      I’m struggling. It’s getting harder and harder to get out of bed each day. I was aiming to start my job search in Feb and then got injured at work in mid Jan, so my job search got derailed while I was on work cover and recovering (I work in blue collar jobs and wouldn’t have been physically able to work in a new one.) arm is getting better but there’s no one hiring and work is deemed essential across a couple of different categories. There’s nothing really going, the market is saturated with people like me and with better candidates.

      What makes it worse, is that when I was injured my manager tried to down play the injury and made it clear that I was the biggest inconvenience due to being on light duties. Despite being told I wasn’t to use my right arm (dominate hand) and to be very careful about using my left (because I need one good arm) he basically bullied me the whole time I was working under him. When they moved me to a different area with a much more understanding manager because there was more work for me, I finally felt like I could breathe again. I started enjoying being at work. When the covid stuff got really real they moved the peeps who lived together (couples, parents/kids, housemates) so they were in the same area, in shuffle I’ve ended up back under him and I’m not coping. I dread work. I spend most of my days trying to navigate doing more to regain my strength while trying not to over do and trying not to set him off. He’s a big, solid shouty dude with a short fuse and a desire for everything to be done yesterday. He wants me to do more than whats on the legally binding list of return to work activities while also not letting me do stuff that’s on the list (he doesn’t like me to doing data entry for some reason).

        1. Lonely Aussie*

          HR is aware. He’s been warned about behaving. They’re based in another state though, and it’s difficult to access them. They keep telling me I need to push back and tell him legally I can’t do it but it’s very hard to stand up for myself in the moment when he’s getting visibly angry with me and kind of posturing/towering over me.

    21. Tenebrae*

      I’m in a similar position – was job hunting and now everything’s ground to a standstill. What’s helping me is trying to keep things moving in my non-working life. I’m a writer so I’m trying to send out short stories and prep a novel. Do you have some sort of equivalent in your life? It’s not perfect but find it helps.

    22. urban teacher*

      I am in that same boat, also. I had given my teaching job my notice for the end of the year because I was trying to get a job in a different field. Now I find myself having to rescind my resignation and keep my awful job because every college has put hiring on hold and are cutting positions. I stay sane by therapy and realizing this is a set back not a forever back. Also, at some point horseback riding will be available and my life will be whole again.

  7. Curious Cat*

    I am employed full time and my company seems to be doing okay, so I think I’ll be safe, which I feel very lucky about.

    However, before this all started, I was planning on trying to leave. My current job is not a skills fit, my manager is toxic and it had been grating on my mental health and confidence.

    I’ve been so stressed that I couldn’t even think about applying for a new job, things are starting to settle a bit more, so now I’m thinking about what to do next.

    But I need to get a real sense of what it’s like out there so I can prepare myself for how long and hard it might be to find a new job, and I figured this place would give it to my straight.

    I’m not in service/hospitality/travel which I know have been the hardest hit. But how ridiculous is it to think I might be able to find a job in the next few months? Especially when I would be looking for a slightly different role than I’ve been doing. Give me your most honest answers. Thank you!

    1. Wing Leader*

      It’s going to depend a lot on the industry you’re looking at, but I don’t think it’s ridiculous. There’s certainly no guarantees, of course, but I don’t think there’s any harm in trying.

    2. The Original K.*

      I think it depends on the industry. If you can apply your skills to areas that are expanding (or at least not shrinking), you might have better luck. For example, my friend is a teacher and she’s finding that schools are pausing their hiring because they’re not sure what next year will look like, so she’s looking at virtual learning platforms.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It depends heavily on your field and geographic area, but in general right now I would advise most people to assume a job search is likely to take longer than a few months. It might not, but you should plan on that very real possibility.

  8. Anxious Librarian*

    I manage job and career programming at a public library. Yesterday my library system (which has been closed since mid-March) sent out an email to all of our patrons that the library is going to be a leader in supporting the economic recovery whenever it reopens.

    But there’s a problem: I have little idea of what we can really do to help in this situation. My staff and I have conducted workshops and one-on-one help before the pandemic, but little of the advice is going to apply now, the job market is obviously a disaster, patrons are going to be desperate for help (we were already overwhelmed when the economy was good), and the only answer we have right now to virtually every question is “I don’t know.”

    So I guess I have two questions for everyone:

    What career- or job-related programming would you want to see at your local library when everything reopens? 

    How to prepare/gain knowledge:
    I’m reading every post on Ask a Manager every day (Alison, we are truly indebted to you!). I’m attending webinars about the job market as I’m able to find them. What else should I be doing to stay on top of all of the news so I’m prepared for when we eventually reopen? 

    It’s perhaps discouraging to hear a librarian asking these questions, but we are unfortunately in the same leaky boat as everyone else and would be truly grateful for some guidance. Thanks!

    1. GigglyPuff*

      I don’t have any programming suggestions, honestly don’t know how public librarians think up all that stuff, I’m not that creative, so glad I didn’t do that specialty, would’ve been disastrous!

      Anyway, if you guys are getting a lot of in-person traffic related to just jobs, maybe have dedicated computers/stations just for that?

      Good luck!

    2. bizref librarian*

      I’m an academic business librarian- here are a couple of thoughts off the top of my head.

      If you have access to your area’s business journal (bizjournals dot com), that’s a good source of business/job/career/etc information for your local area. Just to get a sense of what’s going on, and where you might see gaps in information/programming/skills. I’m fortunate that my library can subscribe.

      Can you reach out to the Small Business Center in your area, if you don’t already have a relationship with them? My public business librarian friends often partner with the SBC in their towns on programming & support for jobs/entrepreneurs/small business research/etc.

      I follow @ SECNews on Twitter, which announces webinars & other things that may or may not be relevant to you. There’s a hashtag #SECsmallbiz, too.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        To piggyback off the SBC suggestion here, reach out to your city’s Chamber of Commerce to get ideas about what kind of jobs-related programming your library should host. You guys may be able to help with webinars and other research-heavy initiatives they have planned.

    3. RabbitRabbit*

      I’d say one thing would be to do your best to find and provide accurate info about unemployment/turning down work/partial unemployment! Not exactly job-related but very close! Maybe either write up FAQs or print out the latest info and make copies available with pointers to where they can find it online too.

      1. Catwoman*

        I second this. Unemployment laws are changing rapidly as well as sick leave policies. I think jobseekers and people needing to go on unemployment could definitely use this support right now.

        Beyond this, I think reaching out to local businesses to see how they are handling the virus and publishing these interviews on a blog could be helpful. You could also put out a call for businesses to contact you regarding their hiring status for you to help get the word out.

        1. Anne of Green Gables*

          Yes! When I was in public libraries, we once had a patron who had worked for the unemployment office for 20+ years, he came and did a session that included lengthy time for Q&A. I had forgotten about it until I saw the suggestion. It was really successful for us, and was in 2011, so in our area as things were still pretty low from 2008 recession.

      2. Kimmy Schmidt*

        Seconding this! Look into if you can get any unemployment experts, career coaches, or resume/cover letter experts to record a short lecture or series of lectures. Compile everything job related into one page, and update it frequently. Maybe add a “job help” link on your website homepage, if you don’t already have one. Reach out to any small business centers, local universities, or job training offices to see if you can promote any of their resources.

    4. irene adler*

      Might reach out to any local professional organizations and ask them for advice/info/input.

      Or, you might tabulate the contact info for a range of professional organizations with chapters in your area. You can then direct your patrons to these organizations for job/industry info.

      My local professional organization is working with an employee at a local recruiting company to assist our members with up to-date info on the industry job market. She reached out to us and wants to be a long-term partner in conjunction with our members in job placements (temp and perm positions).

    5. Buttons*

      I had no idea such a job existed for a librarian! Do you have additional training in that area, or is that something you learned on your own?
      I am in talent and leadership development and often volunteer my time and expertise to organizations such as domestic violence shelters, group homes for troubled teens, etc, to help their clientele with resumes, job searching, how to apply online, how to upload resumes, how to format resumes, resume templates, interview skills and practice. You might reach out to one of the talent development organizations in your area, such as Association of Talent Development, to see if they can offer resources or if anyone would be willing to volunteer to help you come up with a curriculum or objectives at least. Association of Talent Development would also be a great learning resource for you to learn about this field and the practices behind it, if you haven’t received any formal education or training in this area.
      If Allison can coordinate contact between us, I would be willing to volunteer some time and some of my existing content that may be beneficial to you. I would even do a volunteer phone coaching session with you to help you know how to navigate such facilitation if that is not in your wheelhouse. :)
      Good luck!!
      Allison if you can help connect us I would love to offer any help I can!!

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      In the US, the Department of Labor has local career centers who can partner with libraries in lots of ways to provide services. Perhaps you could partner with DOL or the Chamber of Commerce or other similar organizations to hold a job fair or open recruitments at the library.

      Definitely create some cheat sheets from your local DOL site about filing for UI, the requirements, and troubleshooting issues. (And the Career Center would have those too… and might be able to email them to you before you open.)

      Maybe a wall of informative posters would make sense too … “where to go if” … including all of your favorite community support services, info about sanitation and curve flattening, ways to get internet access at home for folks who are low income, alternative resources like the community sharing projects that are popping up.

      Anything you can add to your website now would be amazing. Libraries are such amazing resources, and once you start creating an information hub, more folks can reach out to add additional tools that make sense for your area.

    7. Blueberry*

      Goodness, could whomever wrote that letter have checked with you first? I’m so sorry someone else wrote a check you now have to cash.

      1. bibliovore.*

        oh Blueberry. This is so typical behavior in public libraries that it isn’t even remarkable.

      2. Thankful for AAM*

        I also came here to say, oh Blueberry, that made me laugh so hard!

        Check with the library first!! Lolololol

    8. Anne of Green Gables*

      Also a librarian, though no longer in public libraries.

      Riffing off of bizref librarian: small business centers are usually (at least in my state) affiliated with the local community or technical college. Community colleges could be a great programming partner for you in these times. In addition to continuing ed resources, many higher ed institutions have incentives right now to keep people in classes.

      1. Rachel in NYC*

        Not shocked. NYPL has that whole business library…someplace…Brooklyn maybe? or maybe that’s the Brooklyn library (BPL)?

        Never used the business library but I love NYPL. It saves my book budget, especially when they buy the books I suggest. (I love my library.)

        1. pancakes*

          You’re thinking of the Science, Industry and Business Library at Madison & 34th. I went once with a friend who was working for a science publication. Agree, NYPL is amazing!

    10. Kimmybear*

      I think we are going to see lots of people job searching that haven’t searched in a long time so think of topics for them (resume building, online job searching, online applications). My parents (recently retired) don’t get that walking into a business and filling out an application doesn’t happen anymore because they hadn’t job searched in 30 years or more.

      Also, partner with your local school systems to see what opportunities they may have when they figure out how to reopen. Are they going to need more substitutes? Do they need more school health aides? Do they need more tech staff to support distance learning? Do they need more bus drivers since you need to space kids out on the bus?

      1. a good mouse*

        This is really great advice about people job searching who haven’t in a long time, in the worst job market any of us have seen. I think online job searching would be a great resource right now. They might also benefit from advice or resources about transferable skills, if they work in an industry that is particularly hard hit.

    11. Mervyn Bunter*

      Another idea is to provide information on organizations that are offering job skills training classes or other opportunities — many are remote, some are low- or no-cost right now. Might be helpful to those who are looking to upskill or reskill.

    12. Candy*

      I think a lot of job search and how-to guides to finding government assistance will be needed when we all re-open. ie. Virtual Career and Job Search Tour, Ask a Career Advisor, What Covid Response Programs Fit Your Needs,Short Term Business Survival Strategies, Finding and Applying for Government Assistance

      And then maybe some fun stuff for teens — Recording and Editing Video Content, Intro to Tik Toc and Dance Moves, Remote Learning Strategies for Students, Hosting a Successful Online Event, etc etc

    13. A Non E. Mouse*

      What career- or job-related programming would you want to see at your local library when everything reopens?

      What about job-adjacent resource help?

      Some things I’m thinking of:

      – Information on “dress for success”-type programs in your area

      – Childcare listings (my county provides a list of licensed carers, but an aggregated list of locally available lists like that would be nice)

      – Dental and health care resources for those that are between jobs

      – Help navigating free online job-readiness courses, or pointing people to library-provided sources (Excel classes, Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing, Linda.com, etc.)

      – Job board: like “this week these three job fairs are going on at such-and-such time, don’t forget to check these lesser-known resources for open positions…”

      – Another aggregated list that might be helpful is local, state and federal aid they might not know they are eligible for…so maybe a “you’ve just been laid off, here’s what you do next…” not just for employment, but food aid, rent help, did you know you can call your creditors and ask for a lower rate, etc.

    14. DragoCucina*

      At the library I just left (as ED) it’s common to partner with staffing agencies. They hold their job fairs and interviews at the library. It is great because they can explain exactly what lama teapot employer is looking for on the application. It eases some of the stress off the staff. The agencies love it and they talk to each other and promote the idea.

    15. Paris Geller*

      So luckily as my library hasn’t promised this yet (I mean, it’s definitely information we want to provide, but we haven’t said as much because well, there’s so much we don’t know right now). However, I agree with a lot of the other suggestions. There are probably some local non-profits that focus on job skills/job readiness–putting a resource together listing all those would be helpful. Perhaps partnering with someone from the local workforce commission who could be on-site (when it’s safe to do so) for a few hours a week if that’s something they’re willing to do. Pointing jobseekers to updated information on resumes, cover letters, etc.

      Additionally, it there are small business funds in your area, you could create a list of those as well. I know the national loan program has been rolled out, but at least in my area, there’s some local foundations that are donating/loaning at low rates to true local small businesses (less than 10 employees, less than 20 employees).

      For something that might not take much staff time (except up front) it might be worth creating a special collection with all your career and job-seeking titles so that patrons can easily explore and find books on resumes, interviewing, etc.

      I would also suggest adding into your resources on local mental health resources. Losing a job in a pandemic is terrifying; I’m afraid when we re-open and things get slightly better but so many people are out of jobs there could be an uptick in the rate of suicide, self-harm, etc. Us librarians aren’t social workers, but we can direct people to the appropriate resources.

    16. New Senior Manager*

      My son “graduates” from grad school next in the College administration field with 5 years of professional experience. Had a conversation with him tonight and he admitted he was depressed because he had 7 interviews within past few weeks that all looked promising but now 6 have said they are no longer hiring for those positions. The other is waiting for an approval to “possibly extend an offer.” If you could consider a workshop on mental health, that would be helpful for those feeling like him or in worse straits. Thank you for your thoughtfulness.

  9. Anon Today*

    No advice needed, just wanted to send good vibes out there to anyone who needs them. Personally, my company announced layoffs and salary reductions this week so I’m bummed. Glad to have survived this wave of layoffs but continuing to tell myself it’s ok to have feelings about the situation as a whole. If you’re going through something similar, just know you can be grateful and sad at the same time. I’ve been reminding my coworkers of that.

    Hang in there, everyone.

  10. College is haunting me*

    I spoke to a few recruiters this week. The conversation with the first one went great. The second one messaged me on LinkedIn and asked something related to my cultural/religious background. He’s from the same or a similar background and I get he was trying to just make conversation but for some reason that stuff makes me uncomfortable. I sent over my resume and he asked if he can text me his business card. But my main concern is about the last one I met with. 

    The recruiter started off by asking about my college background and GPA and what I did since I finished college. My resume starts at my most recent position which began in 2014. I explained that I graduated in 2009 during a recession so I held seasonal/temp/pt jobs (think call center, retail, etc) between graduation and 2014 but they weren’t relevant to the positions I was searching for. I have to admit that for the GPA, I was really thrown off by that and I couldn’t’ remember so the recruiter said “oh just give me a ballpark, if anything we can request transcripts.” 

    He then asked how my search is going and I have an answer ready for that question (“I just started applying and I know in the best of times hiring is slow, so I’m managing my expectations.”) but he kept pressing, like what companies I’m applying to (“oh just small companies” (oh who?”). My tone must have conveyed my hesitance because he explained why he was asking. 

    He asked when exactly my last day was. On my resume I have it as April but HR called me on 3/27 and sent the letter on 3/31. When I had updated my resume, I had put it to -Current because I was still employed there but I changed it a few weeks later to April 2020 not really thinking about the date. 

    He asked my salary range (75-85k for a licensed senior accountant professional with 7 years experience including managerial/supervisory) and asked how I came up with that figure. Uh…research? He asked my entire salary history. Internally I was like, my company really lowballed me. 

    In the end, he said my resume is great, but to add my education (which I understand) and that some sections were 10.5 font while others were 10 pt font. 

    This is where I’m flummoxed. For various reasons, I did not do well in school. I wasn’t really working much, and there’s not much I can “spin” that wouldn’t be a huge exaggeration. It took me 6-8 years to finish a 4 year program with 122 credits. My GPA was atrocious. I technically finished my coursework in 2009 but I didn’t apply to get my degree until 2011 and left it pending for various reasons. My degree is in an unrelated subject but my minor and all my electives were in Accounting. I haven’t had to justify my college career in like 5 years. Honestly, I’m not proud of my college experience. I wasn’t very good and I worked really hard at my job so that college wouldn’t come up eventually. I haven’t thought about this for years as I figured with my work history, it shouldn’t be as relevant anymore. 

    Now my questions: 

    1. Was it wrong to not put my college info on my resume? Overall I’m just side eyeing all the college talk. I could get transcripts but I feel like–it’s been 8+ years and I have relevant coursework, just not a full degree? I thought companies wouldn’t care after a certain point? Almost a decade after, should I still be expected to talk about college in interviews and with recruiters? 

    2. Does the month that my last day fall into really matter? My termination letter came on 3/31 and last paycheck 4/10. I did change it to March, but just wondering. To me an end date of March indicates that I was let go prior to COVID while April lines up with COVID layoffs. I used to do a lot of interviewing in my last position and I never bothered about their start/end dates.

    3. Was it really terrible to have 10/10.5 font? I’ve now started saving my resume as PDF but at my last position when I was screening for candidates, I rarely looked for typos or font size.

    3. Are these level of questions (about my salary, my non-resume history, college work) normal? I’ve worked with recruiters in the past and most of them focused on my recent experience and just touched upon my “beginnings.” This recruiter was really friendly and professional on the phone but his questions made me feel like I was a brand new college grad with no working experience. It felt like 2009 all over again. 

    I’m still applying to other places and speaking to other recruiters, but I’m second guessing myself based on the 3 questions I posed above. 

    1. DataGirl*

      I’m surprised he noticed such a small font difference, but I’d go ahead and make them uniform, it’s not like it’s hard to do that. I do think he asked some really weird questions and wouldn’t take your experience with him as the norm. Regarding your degree, it’s unusual for someone to ask about GPA and grades so long after graduation. I graduated long enough ago that I don’t want the year to out my age, and my degrees are in things totally not related to my career, so my education is just this:

      M.S. University Name, Location
      B.A. University Name, Location

      If you want to, you could add the year and/or Major/Minor, but grades definitely don’t need to be part of it.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      As far as #3, COVID layoffs were certainly happening in March. Besides that, if you were laid off in March, I would just… say March. Not April.

      Most resumes I’ve seen definitely put college info on them, so leaving it off strikes me as odd. Leaving the dates blank is one recommendation I’ve seen, especially for older workers, but I’m not sure that applies here. And I’m not really sure I understand the timeline, but your degree is technically pending? If you were to get a transcript from your university, do you know what it would say? As far as the coursework goes, you should absolutely include that you did coursework in Accounting, however you choose to present your college experience. That part is really important. For what it’s worth, my degree is completely unrelated to my current career, but I list it because it shows that I graduated, plus I had two minors.

      The size of the font is not important, but it IS important to be consistent. That’s why the recruiter brought it up. You can use different fonts for different things (like, say, making your Additional Experience or Skills section smaller than your work history) but make sure you’re following a pattern.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I get what you’re saying. The reason I left it off was because my resume was already at 2 pages. I was able to pare it down and add it.

        To clarify – I finished school in 2009 and in conversations with friends/coworkers etc I just say “I graduated in 09.” but I didn’t apply for my degree audit until 2011 and I received my degree then. So my transcripts would say 2011. That’s what I used to put on resumes when I was job hunting.

        The reason I left it pending for 2 years was because I was planning to go back for a 2nd Bachelor’s degree. But I applied to a few schools and didn’t gain admission and my husband and I were planning to move to his country so I needed the degree but the move never happened.

        I changed my end date to March, I just didn’t think 24 hours would make a difference, but I’m not going to die on that hill.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Then that means your degree is not “pending.” You have one– it was awarded in 2011. Just put that down. You don’t need to say which years you attended, just when you graduated. If you had it like that for previous resumes, and you were hired off of those resumes, there’s no reason to change that now.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Oh, and the 24 hours does actually make a difference. It’s not just incorrect to say one month when it’s really another, but it would look really strange if you did it that way because “24 hours shouldn’t make a difference.” If your birthday were on 3/31, you wouldn’t say you were born in April.

        3. Hillary*

          This guy was a jerk. It’s hard to ignore him, but please try.

          Another way to reframe it – you completed your degree in spite of what sounds like a ton of challenges. That’s a huge accomplishment to be proud of. You could just as easily say you finished your coursework in 2009 but didn’t get around to filing the graduation form until 2011.

          You might want to think about paring down other sections – two pages is a lot for six years, and it might raise questions if it looks like you’re trying to hide something. Your resume is a sales document. My goal is 3 bullet points for the older jobs, 5-6 for most recent. I use more space for education than many because there are a couple education things that look impressive and usually add talking points for an interview. I’ve done a lot of interviewing classes over the years on both sides of the table – for me the goal of my resume is to sell myself. Every line has at least one associated accomplishment and story.

          1. Rachel in NYC*

            I agree about the length. I’ve been out of college 20 years and I still try to keep my resume to a page. I just can’t think of anything I’ve done that is a reason it should be more then that. If I go for an additional degree, I’ll have to say f- it and go to page two but at this point, every time I add something I ask whether things still there really need to be there.

          2. Julie*

            I’d be unimpressed with a resume that made a point of not getting around to filling out a form for two years. If the degree was awarded in 2011 that’s all you need to say.

            I didn’t read anything in the anecdote to indicate that the recruiter was a jerk. He asked clarifying questions, which is not surprising. If someone is not straightforward about plain facts, as is the case in OP’s retelling here, they may ask questions to make sure they understand properly.

            OP, this is said with compassion: dismissing anything that makes you feel uncomfortable as mean and nasty behaviour won’t help you feel better in the long run.

            1. Potatoes gonna potate*

              ??????

              Nowhere did I indicate he was mean or nasty at all. Yes the questions made me uncomfortable, but I realize that’s on me.

              In fact in my last paragraph, I even said he was really friendly and professional, but the level of questions caught me off guard hence my posting here.

              1. Intro to epistemology*

                Julie was replying to Hillary’s statement, not claiming you said that.

                1. Potatoes gonna potate*

                  Julie said “OP, this is said with compassion: dismissing anything that makes you feel uncomfortable as mean and nasty behavior won’t help you feel better in the long run.”

                  Considering I’m the OP of the post, I would think Julie was saying that to me.

        4. Slutty Toes*

          I was really confused by this reply until I realized that you posted the College Is Haunting Me comment under a different name.

          1. Potatoes gonna potate*

            Sometimes I summarize the title of my posts and reply under my “usual” name

            I really like your username lol

            1. Slutty Toes*

              Thanks! I stole it from a letter writer a few months ago whose coworker was complaining about her shoes. It was so silly that it stuck with me.

    3. Catwoman*

      1. List your degree, including your minor because that’s relevant to the work you’ve done since then. All you need to do is list the degree and where you got it from. GPA is totally irrelevant at this point.

      2. You should say March because that can come back to bite you. March is the most accurate month. If it’s a lay off everyone knows why, don’t worry about that.

      3. Not terrible, but easy to fix so just do it.

      4. The fixation on college is weird to me, but I have very little experience with recruiters.

      1. Anon for this*

        I agree. Was there NO mention of a college degree at all? If not, then it’s totally valid to inquire to make sure an applicant even has a degree. Also regarding March, to give the wrong month shows poor attention to detail at best and deception at worst. That combined with vague or absent college would make me suspicious, like what else is this candidate hiding?

        1. Potatoes gonna potate*

          That’s what I figured, so I changed it asap, I wasn’t trying to be deceptive or shady. I understand why its necessary to add college to my resume, I was just thrown off by all the questions, but it makes total sense now.

          1. CupcakeCounter*

            All I have on mine is
            BBA in Accounting from State University

            That’s all. I took GPA and graduation date off as soon as I landed my first post-college role that aligned with my degree.

      2. Beatrice*

        Alternately, leave off your major and minor entirely. Mine lists that I have a B.A. from XYZ College awarded in 2002. My job is related to my minor, not my major, and that has worked fine for me.

    4. Annony*

      1. I have never seen a resume that left off education entirely. You can be minimal and simply list your degree and school. I usually see the year the degree was awarded as well, especially if it was within the last ten years. Leaving it off looks like you didn’t go to college. I don’t think you need your GPA on there at all. I think you should be prepared to talk about why your degree is not in accounting. Talk about the accounting courses you did take and how you have transferable skills. You took a less standard path so they are going to want to understand why and know that you actually want to stay in this field.

      2. I really think you are overthinking your end date. Put whatever you think your employer will verify (in this case it sounds like March). COVID layoffs were happening in March already, especially the tail end of March. You can even list it as 3/31 if that makes you feel better about how it looks. My guess is that you were asked about it because it was still April so the recruiter didn’t know if you were still finishing up or if you were available immediately.

      3. The fond change does matter. You don’t want typos and inconsistency in formatting if avoidable. It is so easy to fix so why wouldn’t you? You want to put your best foot forward.

      4. If you don’t like this recruiter, don’t work with him. To me, his questions for the most part don’t sound egregious, more like he wants the complete picture. Needing to know exactly where you have applied is the only one that really would make me uncomfortable. But go with your gut. There are many recruiters out there and it sounds like you have worked well with recruiters in the past, so if this one in particular rubs you the wrong way you really don’t need to push through.

      1. Annony*

        I think the heart of the problem is that college and your end date are sources of insecurity for you. Your response to that is to try to hide them entirely, which raises red flags because then it looks like you actually have something to hide (which I don’t think you do). If you just state the facts, it really doesn’t look that bad.

        1. Potatoes gonna potate*

          Not so much the end date. I did put the correct end date (which would match what’s on my transcript) and explained it to the recruiter. He did say thanks for the clarity. But yes, overall my whole college experience is a source of insecurity for me.

      2. Potatoes gonna potate*

        You’re right, I did take a very non standard path. I’m really ashamed of how I did in college and my overall college experience, but I did what I could given my means. I tried really hard to do well at my job despite my background…. so maybe I’m a little oversensitive about college stuff. It’s been years since I had to talk about it in such detail.

        1. Annony*

          Maybe trying to re-frame it in your mind will help you talk about it in interviews. Taking a non standard path is not a bad thing! It has given you unique experiences and shaped who you are today. It gave you drive. You have a track record in your field that supports that you are a dedicated worker and you excel despite the fact that your degree is in a different field. Doing the best with what you have is something to be proud of!

        2. Scanon*

          I understand your insecurity, but it may help to talk about it more. This is really not that uncommon a path! It took me 8 years to finish a 4 year degree… I took time off, changed focus, then eventually just graduated with whatever I had enough courses in to put together a major and minor.

          Finishing the degree actually shows you stuck through school despite setbacks. You were determined to graduate and you did it! That’s actually pretty awesome!

          As for degree date, could you put something like: Course work completed in 2009, degree granted in 2011.

          As others have said, you may want to try a different recruiter. You may just not be clicking with this one. However, do think about whether he pushed so much because he thought you were being cagey about things. It sounds like you think you have things you are ashamed about or want to hide in your past. But you don’t! Taking a long time to graduate and having bad marks is far less important than the fact that you did graduate, you did do the work, you did see your program through to the end. Most employers are going to care about that and about the work you have done since, not about what grades you got 12 years ago.

          1. Annony*

            I would probably just put the date the degree was granted. I don’t think the fact that the course work was completed two years prior helps and phrasing it that way will almost guarantee that they will be asked about it when they prefer not to talk about it. Be bland.

        3. Reba*

          I definitely think the one recruiter was over-zealous in the way he pursued the questions, I don’t think you need to revamp the whole approach due to his feedback alone.

          The average degree completion time is 5 years and change. (And I think that does not include part time and other ‘non-traditional’ student categories in the survey; the way that the Dept of Education collects this data has changed in the past few years.)
          Only about 40% graduate in 4 years at so-called 4-year colleges.

          It is very, very normal to struggle in those years, and likewise to graduate in 6 or so years.

          I can understand why it’s painful for you to talk about. But if you can try to just share the information neutrally, a lot of folks will recognize your education history as a common one and not think much of it. If you cloak it in shame, then people may think there was something more to the story.

          1. Potatoes gonna potate*

            That makes a lot of sense, I didn’t realize that it was so common. Where I went to school, majority of my classmates graduated in 3 or 4 years, very few took longer than 4.5 or 5. You’re right, just be matter of fact about it.

          2. allathian*

            I also took 8 years to complete a 4-year Bachelor’s + Master’s degree when most of my cohort took 5 or 6 years. I’m in the Nordics, though, where it’s common because tuition is free up to and including a Master’s degree and you don’t have to pay more to spend more time at university. Costs of living still have to be paid, and I graduated HS in 1991. In 1995 we were still in recession so it was much easier to stay in school and take additional credits, especially as I was still entitled to my student subsidy. The terms have changed now and things are much tougher for the Z-generation than they were for me.

      3. February Goshawk*

        In my experience, asking where you’ve already applied is common because the agency may not be able get their referral fee if you’ve already established a relationship with the company.

    5. Sally Cat*

      When does your college show that you graduated? If an employer or recruiter checks and the school tells them 2011 when you listed 2009, they are going to wonder about it.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        It shows 2011. In earlier versions of my resume I always put 2011 but when I talk to friends/coworkers I just say I graduated in 2009.

    6. Potatoes gonna potate*

      Thanks everyone. I understand now where the recruiter was coming from and it’s more clear now. I think my own feelings about my college experience made me a little insecure about this all.

    8. TiffIf*

      Others have given some great advice and input on how things are on your resume–but I just wanted to say you aren’t alone in your struggle during university! It took me 11 years to get my undergrad degree–I kept stopping and starting because I needed to work to pay for school and I was on academic probation and suspension at one point. I was having issues with undiagnosed depression for a few years there so I had some ok semesters and then some REALLY REALLY bad semesters –my GPA was atrocious by the end as well.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Thank you for the kind words and encouragement, I hope you’re doing better now.

        I think mine was just…not having my priorities in place and a family that didn’t either. Everyones priority was for me to get married. *major cringe* Eventually I did get married, finished classes, 1 month of stay at home housewife life I realized I couldn’t live my life like that. My GPA was so bad in the 1st two years that even if I swung straight As for the next 4 years, I would never go beyond a 3.0.

      2. New Senior Manager*

        Same. 10 years. Stop, start, part-time, and finally full-time while raising two children alone. Went on to earn my graduate degree. Reframe your story. Every interview I’ve had since earning undergrad degree has included interviewers congratulating me on persevering despite obstacles. This is our real life and we have gained valuable past experience that we can utilize today. Wishing you well in your search.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Very weird.

      1. You should put your college info on your resume: Degree. Major. University. Location
      You can leave off the year and GPA on resume, but some application systems will require it be input.
      2. Layoff day would be your last day of work. March. Or you could say April 1. I’ve never had anyone nitpick over an exact day before unless it was Unemployment.
      3. Fix the font! I admit I’m a graphic designer, but mis-matched fonts drive me nuts. I am surprised anyone but designers would notice though as it was slight. You should definitely NOT have typos–it looks sloppy on a resume.
      4. History and college work is fairly normal to ask about. I feel they were asking because that part is not in your chosen career field… and it looks a little flaky unless there was good reason. As far as the salary goes: IDK, either your salary research was much higher than your experience/location/industry/pandemic would suggest is the going rate right now. OR they are trying to get your salary history (which is low due to all those unrelated jobs) to low ball you (a common tactic, especially used on women).

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        2. Right? I was wondering if one day is nitpicking, I personally never paid attention when I was looking at candidates’ resumes. UI of course I am exact with.
        3. The font was fine! Lol it was just the size, and it was a half size difference. No typos, I did fix it tho. Neither of these are my hills to die on,
        4. I did get the lowballing vibe but the other theory is plausible too. Maybe I should research more. sigh.

    10. dealing with dragons*

      just an fyi I use different font sizes to cheat layout things I need to have done (like I need a line to take more space or something) and I apply for design jobs lol

      and when I’ve talked to recruiters, they generally do like what you did in college and interests for how to get you to different jobs. it can help for matching. for salary, most people have stopped asking since california made it illegal to base offered salary on past salaries. It shouldn’t be indicative of what you’re making for a new job.

      1. allathian*

        Adjust kerning instead, will make you seem even more flashy! :) Although, to be fair, I don’t know how easy it’s to do that in Word or if you need something like inDesign?

    11. TG*

      Sounds like the discrepancy in termination dates and lack of college on your resume may have made the recruiter dig in deeper to make sure you were a good, truthful candidate. I know it’s hard to not be anxious about a job loss and having a non-standard path in college, but just remember that’s not unique. Recruiters see it all the time. You actually aren’t being haunted by college. Just stay as clear and truthful on your resume as possible and I’m sure most people won’t even notice anything. Good luck!

    12. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I have to admit that for the GPA, I was really thrown off by that and I couldn’t’ remember so the recruiter said “oh just give me a ballpark, if anything we can request transcripts.”

      In that situation, I would plead that I don’t remember at all and would be glad to look that up and get back to the interviewer.

      If I gave a “ballpark” figure that turned out to be too high, that would be grounds for both firing me and blackballing me as a liar — whenever the company found out, now or later. The interviewer could conveniently forget the “ballpark” modifier — or even “distinctly remember” having told me to only answer if I knew for a fact.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Allow me to clarify. The GPA discrepancy could be used as grounds for rejecting me, never considering me again and possibly informally blackballing me as dishonest, or if the company hired me and then found out, could be used as grounds for firing me and blackballing me as dishonest.

        Either way if the company decided to make something of it. Not a risk I’d want to take, since I wouldn’t be able to prove the interviewer said s/he’s accept a “ballpark” figure (let alone defined the maximum acceptable error), and the interviewer would have some incentive to deny having said that.

  11. Millennial Lizard Person*

    I was Gandalf at work the other day– but maybe not in a good way. As part of training, my boss asked me how I would do task X. I didn’t think there was an easy way to do it, as I thought it would require a lot of customization:

    Boss: no, you can just use this tool
    Me: There’s a tool for that? I remember doing some validation on the concept … I don’t think there was ever a full tool constructed.
    Boss: …..
    Boss: You wrote it
    Me, as Gandalf: ….. I have no memory of this place

    Sure enough, I’d written the tool to do this back in 2017. Listen, I hadn’t used it since then! I’d sorta been a contractor for the team at the time. I wasn’t the primary user! I… completely, honestly, 100% forgot that I’d written a whole tool to do that. Apparently it was straightforward for me to write and to use, because no one’s asked me for updates in three years. But that was a pretty goofy moment.

    1. 867-5309*

      I fully support the LOtR reference. Made me LOL and now I’m going to binge the movies this weekend.

    3. catears*

      oh … that happens to me *all* the time. Including this week, in a meeting when my manager had a brilliant new idea for something. And one of my team members said : Oh, catears has already done that.
      I had to message the coworker after the meeting to ask where all this work was. I’d completely and utterly forgotten I done it. But, it’s all right there where my coworker pointed me to. Documentation and everything.

    4. Did you read the syllabus?*

      This happened to me with something I had done completed about a month week ago! I honestly can’t remember doing it, but it has my name on it, and it’s good. I feel like pre-pandemic memories are all just a blur. But did give us something to laugh about which was good!

    5. OperaArt*

      I was expecting something along the lines of, “You shall not pass.” :-)
      I totally understand forgetting you wrote a tool.
      And yours must have been very complete and robust.

    6. Jenny Next*

      I’ve done that! I usually laugh and say, “I did? How clever of me!” (Although someone told me once that it sounded arrogant, so maybe that’s bad advice.)

    7. The New Wanderer*

      Been there, about papers I had written for internal documentation purposes. Last year I started writing one while grumbling to myself that gee, would have been nice if someone had done this a few years ago. Then it nagged at me til I went through my old archives and found that exact paper I was about to write from a few years ago. Written by me. Thanks, past me!

    8. Anonymato*

      My spouse was looking for an answer to some question on a professional online forum. He was able to find a really good explanation, and when he looked at the author of the post, and it was written by him (a year or so back) :-)

    9. Deanna Troi*

      This is me! I used to have a job where I traveled a lot lot to project sites, Monday-Friday. Once we were working at a county airport in Llamaville. My husband and I were going on vacation and were on a layover at a major hub airport. We heard an announcement that said “Final boarding for Llamaville.” I said to my husband “I didn’t realize Llamaville had an airport.” He gave me a funny look and said “Didn’t you just live in a hotel there for 3 months and work at that airport?” Oh. Yeah.

  12. Wing Leader*

    Admin Day Storytime

    Since admin day was last Wednesday, I had to share this one. Throughout this whole Coronavirus thing, my essential company has stayed open and fully operational for the most part. However, a few weeks ago, we learned that one of my coworkers may have been exposed to the virus. So my bosses–not wanting to spread anything–decided to close for 2 weeks so everyone could stay home during that time. Fortunately, we were still paid during that time off.

    No one got the virus and everything seemed to be in the clear, so we opened back up last week. On Wednesday/Admin Day, my boss sends all of us admin this email:

    “As you all know, it is Admin Appreciation Day. Given the circumstances this year, we won’t be able to do anything special or extra for you. However, we have decided that the 2 week quarantine time off was your gift. You’re welcome.”

    Umm…okay. So, they managed to take staying home and trying not to catch and deadly disease and twist it into a “gift” from them. Okayyyyy.

    Don’t get me wrong–I realize how fortunate I am to still be working and to still be paid during any time off, and I don’t want to minimize how lucky I am in that regard. That said, my boss can still be condescending as hell sometimes.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      Oh my God, the “you’re welcome.” You’re right – the condescension just oozes from that. I could see it as maybe being a poor attempt at a joke but… yikes.

    3. Potatoes gonna potate*

      GOod god that is douchey AF. I can see one of us saying it to our Office manager, as a joke because we have that relationship with him, but it would be accompanied by, like, a real gift. That’s terrible.

    5. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Ew.

      “As you all know, it is Admin Appreciation Day. Unfortunately, given the circumstances this year, we won’t be able to do anything special or extra for you, but we hope you know how grateful we are that you have all adapted so quickly to the necessary changes, and that we can continue to support our customers as part of the national/global efforts.”

    6. I'm that person*

      If it had been unpaid time off and they have changed it to paid then it would have been a nice gift but this…

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      GAHHHH I’ll fix it for them:
      “As you all know, it is Admin Appreciation Day. Given the circumstances this year, we won’t be able to do anything to celebrate, but we want you to know that it is ONLY the business climate that causes that.”

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      Wow, your boss really showed their whole ass there, didn’t they? Dang.

      1. Iconic Bloomingdale*

        Sure did. Damn.

        That message is so snarky, condescending and demoralizing. And to be honest, it is rather unprofessional to boot.

    11. Annony*

      This definitely falls under “If you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all.” And never end an email with “You’re welcome.”

    12. Aggretsuko*

      Why am I picturing “You’re Welcome!” from Moana now?

      Yeah, that was a slap in the face.

    14. noahwynn*

      It would be so easy for them to just say “As you all know, it is Admin Appreciation Day. I just wanted you to know how much we appreciate the work you do every day.” Why even mention not having a gift, or trying to twist 2 weeks off that everyone got into a gift. People are dumb.

    16. HBJ*

      How is that a gift to the admins for admin day when everyone else got the two weeks off as well?

  13. Potatoes gonna potate*

    Hi. I’ll try to keep this concise but I can provide more detail if needed. 

    At the end of March, I applied for a job. I had a phone call with the CEO of the company and it went well so we scheduled a video call. The video call went well as well, and we were both enthusiastic to move forward. My only issue was related to coming in to the office during these times. I sent my standard after-interview email and he stated that since his business is essential, I’d need to come in 3 days a week to meet with clients. After getting help from here, I crafted a response and sent it back that Friday. 

    I didn’t hear back for about a week so I sent a follow up and he replied back right away scheduling a third call. We had the third call the next day and worked out the details, salary, schedule etc. He wanted a final call to iron out more details and would send over an offer letter. Start date set for 5/5. This was before my state extended the lock down from 4/30 to 5/15. 

    He didnt’ show up for the 4th call, and I sent him an email which he didn’t respond to. 

    About a week later, he texts me asking if I can work on something for him. I followed up via email and asked for details and gave him my freelancer rate. He said “I thought we agreed on (salary) rate?” I replied back and he said he couldn’t afford it. 

    Earlier this week, I got a missed call from him so I called back and left a voicemail and an email. Nothing. 

    It’s now the Friday before my start date, and I think it’s safe to assume this isn’t happening haha. I’ve moved on, I’m just a little bit concerned b/c I’m collecting unemployment but I don’t think this should affect that. Another thing I am apprehensive about is that I may have handled the freelancing thing poorly but I am not sure. I have questions about freelancing which I’ll post in another thread. It’s a shame because it seemed like a great opportunity and outside of this, going in to the office would never be an issue for me. I had a few other applications out but my contacts are coming back to me now saying hiring is on freeze for now.

    1. Uranus Wars*

      Honestly, I think you are dodging a bullet here. No follow through on offer letter and didn’t show for the 4th call, then asks you to do work before you all finalized anything. Someone dropped the ball here – either he is too busy to be handling your contract. I’d be concerned if you did take a gig from this guy you might not get paid timely, if at all.

    2. Purple Jello*

      Did he send you the offer letter, and this was work under that offer (maybe starting ahead of your official start date)? Or did he want to hire you on the side as a free lancer? It’s not clear to me in your question, and sounds like he wasn’t clear when he asked you to work on something.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Nah, no offer letter for the job. He missed the 4th phone call we were supposed to have.

        He texted me that he needed my help with something for a client. I followed up via email and said that since this falls under consulting work, I’d charge $200*/hour for any work done. When he said “I thought we agreed on 100?” I said “Yes the $100/hr was as an employee. I was under the impression you wanted to do this as contract work before my coming onboard as an employee hence the $200/hour rate. My apologies for any misunderstandings.”

        I guess I should not have assumed? But at that point I was still a candidate, not an employee coming on board.

        *not real dollar amounts.

        1. NightOwl*

          I think you gave him ample opportunity to save face (either say he thought you’d received an official offer, this would be part of the actual work contract, something) and he didn’t. Perhaps he has good intentions and just has too much on his plate or he is now dodging you. I wouldn’t waste too much time on this one, but it’s a bummer when you’ve gone through a few rounds of phone calls already.

    3. Andrea C*

      I’ll give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he’s got a lot on his plate, but holy hell he dropped the ball. Did you ever receive an offer letter? Did you ever talk with HR or some other person who could help you navigate this without dealing with the CEO?

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Small company, no HR. Or rather, “HR” is an outsourced payroll service which I’m familiar with.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      It doesn’t seem like you got an official offer. You talked about some of the details, like a start date, but you didn’t get the letter, they ghosted you on a final interview call, and there’s a shut down order from the state.

      I wouldn’t worry about UI. Those are all reasons to keep letting you claim.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Well, no offer letter means no job offer. You can’t refuse work you weren’t formerly offered.
      As for the freelance work, I think you did the right thing, if that’s your rate as a contractor. Don’t ever undercut yourself as a freelancer because it shows them a) they don’t really value your work, and b) they can get away with paying you less.

      Personally, I think maybe you’ve dodged a bullet. The guy seems sketchy or at the least distracted and out of step with employment norms. My guess is this would not improve upon working for the place.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I didn’t get sketchy vibes, but more that he was distracted and a little inexperienced.

        Since you mention the rate, I do struggle with setting a good freelancer rate, since I’ve only experience in salary. For this guy, I quoted him $55/hour who said that wasn’t feasible. There’s another person I work for who pays me $35. To me, both seem like good rates. I had one person I turned to for advice and he was shocked that I was getting paid so much — but he also decided to outsource his work to a different country for $5/hour so I get there’s that.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I’m really curious if you mentioned in your follow-up emails that you never received the offer letter?

      He may have tasked someone else with it, or had an email glitch, and thinks you got it already.

      It seems odd to me that you’d send over the freelance rate without mentioning that you never got the offer letter.

  14. Nervous Nellie*

    Omigosh, AAM friends! I got a job!!! I don’t know how I pulled it off. In the last couple of months I sent ‘message in a bottle’ emails with my resume and a warm note to all of the shuttered area recruiters, and went back to sewing masks and watching TV. One recruiter just happened to check office email, read my note & resume and got in touch. We had a couple of really great phone chats, and all I expected from it was that she would add me to her applicant roster for when the world reopens. But instead, she contacted an employer-client who had shelved a job listing, and urged her to revive it. The employer and I had couple of really fun and happy chats that sure didn’t feel like an interview, and here we are! I start next Monday. The company is developing a great virus safety plan, and already has a work from home strategy for staff. I cannot believe my good fortune.

    At both this new job and at my last one, I got feedback that it was my cover letter (well, for this new job: ‘cover letterish email’) that got me noticed. For both I used Alison’s recommended formula from her posting, “Here’s an example of a great cover letter”. Slam dunk, people! Go forth and use it! Thank you, Alison from the bottom of my heart! You rock!

    7. Nervous Nellie*

      Thanks everyone! I wanted to share my good news for two reasons – first, it proves that it is still possible to get work in this current environment, and second, that Alison’s cover letter guidance changes lives! I can’t thank Alison enough, and hope that everyone here follows here sage advice now, especially in these new economic times. I am cheering for everyone here who is looking for work. You can do this!

    8. nep*

      Nervous Nellie, so happy for you!!
      Bravo, you. Thanks for sharing this. Such a lift.
      Wishing you all the best.

      1. Nervous Nellie*

        Thank you, nep! And thank you again for your mention of Gabor Mate here a couple days ago. That made me reread When The Body Says No. Just the thing to read before starting a new job with its new mix of people and expectations, with his critically important reminder to be one’s true self and not the person that the circumstances demand. Thank you for helping me prepare for this!

        1. nep*

          Oh my goodness, that is so wonderful.
          When I imbibe him, everything’s better.
          I’m so glad for you.
          Peace

    9. Jean (just Jean)*

      Mazel tov! May it be a good experience all around! Also, thanks for sharing your good news. I appreciate the reminder that as SunnySideUp said, THERE IS HOPE.

  15. Eillah*

    Hi AAM- I’d love your input.

    My department is doing an art selfie challenge a la The Met or The Getty. Things are going really well, and we have a lot of great submissions so far!

    My question is this: Which is a better way to have the team vote for their top 3 favorite winners?

    Option 1: We create a post on our Team Hub site, where team members can comment with their top 3 / compliment the submissions they like
    Option 2: We create a poll which keeps the results private, and announce

    I’m leaning towards option 2, because I don’t want some people’s submissions to be totally ignored & have them feel embarrassed, but I also want people to see how much their team members like their submissions! That being said, I’d love input….

    1. whistle*

      I like Option 2 as well because Option 1 risks having a pile on effect, where the early vote getters are the only ones considered. I wonder if you could do a combination of the two where you have anonymous voting but also a way for people to post public comments?

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Is there any way to combine Options 1 & 2? Can you create the anonymized poll and add in an optional comment section, where people can still provide comments on the submissions the loved the best and why? The comments would still be anonymous but the sentiments would be the same. (You would have to do the legwork for compiling the comments and sending them to each artist, but it seems an easy step.)

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Option 2. I suggest that you do “first pick, second pick, third pick” voting because that reduces the chance of something being a pure popularity contest. It has a name, I just can’t remember it… it’s something like 5 points for top pick, 3 points for 2nd pick, 1 point for 3rd pick, and it opens the door to a consensus winner.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You could collect comments along with the poll, and share them anonymously after the results are announced.

    5. Annony*

      Please don’t do comments. While it can be nice to see how much people love your picture, it really sucks to be ignored or to get bland comments while others are effusive.

    6. Reba*

      If you want to really devote way more of your time to this, you could make a bracket…

      In seriousness I think a poll is tidiest. You can then make a post highlighting the top 3 winners and sharing all the rest of the submissions without rank — that way everyone’s is seen but if there are people who got no/few votes, that is masked.

    7. Koala dreams*

      I think option 2 is best. It’s just the nature of those sorts of things, that some entries will be super popular and some will get zero votes. Just look at the Eurovision Song Contest votes. (That example might only make sense to Europeans and Australians?)

  16. BabyCarrot*

    I’m currently looking for a job and I have an interview lined up next week. The company has asked me to list references they will contact if I am a finalist. I don’t have a really good relationship with my current boss or HR and I don’t trust them to give me a good reference. Should I list them anyways since its my current employer or is it okay to only list former bosses?

    1. The Original K.*

      I think folks expect that you might not list your current employer as a reference because it’s understandable that you don’t want your current employer to know you’re looking for a new job.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      It standard to ONLY list former bosses. Putting a current employer would be strange because it is well understood that you wouldn’t want your current employer to know that you are looking for a job.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s really only in exceptional circumstances that you’d list your current manager as a reference. I’ve done it only when I’ve already given notice for other reasons (moving across the country, for example). If you’re secret-searching (which most job searches are), no one is expecting to be able to talk to your current manager. What I’d do, though, is include your former managers, and then maybe one person from your current work that knows your work well but isn’t your actual manager, especially if you’ve been at your current job a long time (say, 5-10 years or more).

      1. BabyCarrot*

        I might do that if they ask for a current reference. And yes I have been at my job for 8 years, and my coworkers and I work great together.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          The person checking references will know your coworker is likely someone who likes you already and doesn’t know you in a manager-managee capacity, but if you’ve been there 8 years, it will still be helpful for them to talk to someone who’s worked with you recently, and if they’re good at asking questions, even talking to a reference who likely likes you already can be helpful in getting to know your working style.

          1. BabyCarrot*

            Thank you! I hadn’t really thought about putting a coworker as a reference, but I will bring it up if they ask during the interview proccess!

  17. Jean-Paul*

    Long time reader, first time poster. One of my employees (Jane) was arrestedton Wednesday. She allegedly fraudulently claimed unemployment and other benefits that she wasn’t entitled to, because she is still employed here. She also allegedly lied to the company and said she had been exposed to COVID-19. We are essential and still coming in to the office to work because it can’t be done from home. Jane was given isolation pay in full for her time off. Jane also allegedly lied to the health officials/authorities here about being present at an event where people who later tested positive for COVID-19 where present. She was never there. I can’t help but feel disappointed. I hired and mentored Jane. I would have never expected this. Jane didn’t have access to money, finances or any client or co-worker confidential information, and there is nothing to steal, so we aren’t worried about fraud here because she couldn’t commit it in her job with her access (everything my team does is 100 per cent public due to laws and regulations). We are going to check her work for errors but there was nothing fraudulent or illegal she was able to do here. But this still hurts. Everyone here is shocked. I know I shouldn’t be taking this so personally but it really hurts. Has anyone else who manages ever been blindsided by one of their employees?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Wait, she was **arrested** for fraudulent unemployment claims? I don’t think that’s a thing, unless she’s got 30 fake SSNs and is pulling in hundreds of thousands of dollars.

      Find out if she was really arrested, and if so, what for. You can call the public affairs or community liaison number of your local police department(s) and they should be able to steer you to the info.

      1. Jean-Paul*

        She was definitely arrested. It was on the local news. She claimed unemployment and other emergency benefits but she is employed here with full salary (allegedly). Additionally, the company has proof she lied about being exposed to the virus. She was sent home with pay.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I am kind of surprised at the arrest. It does happen if people pull UI frauds, but usually not all that quickly given the glacial pace of the UI office to even verify the fraud. Also, Unemployment will usually give people who have somehow mis-represented their UI claims an opportunity to fully pay back the funds before they go full-charge into fraud/arrest mode.

          I’m not excusing what Jane did. But it does seem she’s being made an example of here for it to make the news! You don’t usually see that unless it’s many thousands of dollars or large-scale fraud/identity theft.

      2. AnnieMay*

        Or don’t! Just fire her and move on. Completely agree there’s more to the story but fortunately that doesn’t need to be your problem.

        1. Jean-Paul*

          Oh yes she will be terminated. Separately from her arrest, we have proof she lied about being exposed to COVID-19. It was not possible for her to be at the event where she said she got exposed and she asked for time off knowing she would get full pay even though she wasn’t exposed there. We don’t care about the benefits stuff, the lie is enough to terminate her. I’m just disappointed because she was my employee and she lied to my face and to the company.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Woooow. Yeah, Jane really effed up here, but don’t take that on yourself. You didn’t make her lie and commit fraud – she did that all on her own.

      3. Rachel in NYC*

        Honestly, these days it could be pretty easily to get to felony level w/ the extra $600 week. But I wonder if the arrest was for the fake exposure claim.

        Honestly, there is a lot of poor choices going on here.

      4. LQ*

        Yup PUA is explicit that it is a thing. Just for fradulent claims, not the 30 fake ssns thing. Feds got real crabby about telling states that they would have criminal charges for false claims.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Yikes. What a disappointment, I’m so sorry.

      I’m not at all excusing her behavior, but is everything ok with her at home? Like, is she in a completely horrible situation and made a really really bad decision out of sheer desperation? Or did she see an opportunity that she thought she could get away with and only regrets getting caught?

      It doesn’t change the situation but the former lets you still think of them as they were somewhat, the latter would hurt more and is a bigger, more disappointing reveal of hidden character.

      1. Jean-Paul*

        I’m not sure because I am not close with Jane (we aren’t friends, just manger/employee). I do know she is childless, never been married and single, that her family lives in the next city over and lives alone in our city. She never seemed off or upset about anything. I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. But from what I know nothing comes to mind.

    3. whistle*

      I wasn’t a manager for this, but a few years ago my company had to fire two people over selling heroine *at work*. It was quite shocking as I worked closely with both employees and had no idea. (And I’m not exactly ignorant or naive when it comes to drug abuse.) I still think about them, particularly the one who I always enjoyed working with and who is a single father.

      1. gee willikers*

        My dad once had a wonderful employee who got arrested for illegal firearms possession. It turns out he had been a full-on gangbanger in his former life, went to prison, reformed, got a degree, and went into programming — but out of fear of his former enemies, he also had a secret stash of guns at home.

        He was really a super nice guy. I’d met him multiple times, and my dad was even a character witness at his trial.

        1. whistle*

          That’s really heartbreaking. I can definitely understand why that person would want to maintain possession of firearms, and I’m glad your dad was able to stand witness.

          On a different note, I of course meant “heroin” in my original comment.

    4. Pine Sol Stew*

      I wasn’t a manager for this, but a junior coworker I trained and mentored was fired — and I don’t know what beyond that, but presumably something — for taking home a spreadsheet full of names and SSNs. I was living in fear for a while that her bad behavior was going to blow back on me as the person who should have trained her better, and also wondering how I could have missed that she’d be the sort of person to do this. I didn’t like her — among other things, she acted rather creepily toward me and said some very transphobic things — but I’d chalked it up to cultural & linguistic differences as she was an immigrant who didn’t yet speak English completely fluently. But that’s a very, very different thing from wholesale identity theft!

      1. Harriet Vane*

        I work in a church, and 10 years ago TWO coworkers were arrested for SEPARATELY stealing from the collection before it was counted and deposited. I had good relationships with both and was completely floored. In retrospect I can see where one of them had a little more spendable income than I would have expected, but that’s all.
        I’m so sorry this happened to you.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          My parents neighbor, who was also the CFO of the company my brother in law worked for a few years back, was arrested for embezzlement. Mom and dad were shocked – his house and car etc…were on par with what you would expect from a C-suite of a medium regional corporation (small Lexus SUV and the house was probably around the $300 mark which for our area is on the nicer end of a large family home in a good neighborhood) and his wife had a good job as well. No one had any idea where the money was going and the estimate was approximately $3 million over a 7 year period. A new AP person caught it when they came back to their computer to see a batch of invoices they weren’t working on had been pulled up and approved for payment. Using the admin passwords and cameras they were able to figure out it was him.
          He was also a deacon in my parents church.

    5. Kali*

      Not a manager, but a coworker recently really screwed us over in a colossally awful way. (Not illegal, but a ripe for lawsuits kind of way.) I was one of the main people to deal with the fall-out.

      If there’s any “cleaning up” to do, just be kind to the employees that are doing it. Acknowledge the problem but be as matter-of-fact and transparent as possible about it. The worst part of dealing with it is that everyone else is coming up to me and trying to gossip about it since the information got restricted, which is suuuuuuper awkward. I didn’t even like the guy! But it feels like I’m covering for him, because I can’t talk about it.

      Also, take comfort in the fact that sometimes, you just don’t see this sort of thing coming. In my situation, I’ll just say that there was a reason I didn’t like my coworker. But I’ve definitely had other coworkers do things that shock the conscience and be a total surprise about it. Like that happy couple you know and secretly, one of them is a habitual cheater and just an awful human. I wish every crappy person had “I’M A CRAPPY PERSON” tattooed on their foreheads, but it just doesn’t happen that often.

    6. Juneybug*

      I had a troop go AWOL on me (we were both in the military) so been there, got the t-shirt/scars.
      Its ok to feel many emotions about this situation. You invested time and energy in this person and it feels like they did you wrong. Or you are so mad you can’t see straight. Or feel ashamed that somehow her actions reflect on you. Or doubt your leadership abilities. Maybe you even wonder how you didn’t see this coming. You can feel these emotions and that is ok.
      Here is what got me through my situation –
      1. Spend some time feeling and more importantly, expressing these emotions so they are not bottled up.
      Maybe write them down and then destroy the paper. Go for a walk and talk about the situation in your head. Pet your cat or dog and tell them what happen and how you are feeling.
      2. Ask your leadership/police to keep you in the loop of what is going on.
      I found out, over time, that that the more I knew, the more I realize that the other person had been planning these actions for a while. Plus I found out that no one saw this coming and I mean no one! Knowledge about the situation can give you some clarity.
      3. It is ok to discuss this with your supervisor or HR.
      I was lucky that I had an upper manager who let me vent, I mean discuss this in his office behind closed doors. It made me feel less crazy about the whole situation. I took this option 3 times over a 4 month period (so you will need other options for venting).
      4. Realize that no-one is thinking you are a bad boss (they really aren’t).
      I felt so shameful about my leadership that you would have thought I was the one who went AWOL. But later on, I found out that most folks figured the troop was an idiot* and were glad they didn’t have a troop do the same thing to them.
      *She really was an idiot.
      5. Be aware of folks will want to gossip about this (but don’t).
      My standard answer was to say I can’t talk about it since actions are still pending. Say it with a sad face (maybe sigh a little) and most folks will back off. For the die-hard noisy folks, tell them that you can’t say anything or you will get in trouble for discussing the investigation. Then change the subject. Over time, folks stop asking.
      6. Document, document, document everything that is going on with this situation.
      Later on, this same troop tried to say I was wrong, she really didn’t go AWOL, that her evaluation rating shouldn’t have reflected on something that never happen, etc., to her new commander a year later. (I had moved overseas at this time so she thought I was out of the picture and could lie again).
      It would have been a huge mess proving my decisions but since I had saved copies of all pertain emails, paperwork that I had to fill out for HR, finance, and leadership, articles in the local base newspaper, copies of law enforcement documents, etc., I was able to show what had truly happen and why I had made the decisions I had made. One very large email with numerous attachments to the new commander made it all go away (and started the process to get her out of military service).
      6. When this all dies down (it will), folks have moved on (they will), and all of the paperwork is done, discuss this with either your supervisor or a trust mentor to see if they was anything you could have done better. In other words, spend some time reflecting on your leadership.
      For me (and I am betting 100% for you too), is you will find out that nope, there was nothing you could have done better/different. These were actions that one individual choose and you or anyone else, would have not been able to prevent or stop this.
      Long story short (too late) – you did nothing wrong. You are a good supervisor. And you will survive this. And this will make such a good shock story to tell folks at a party years from now.

  18. Potatoes gonna potate*

    I’m looking into doing more freelance work. I did this occasionally for a few former colleagues while I was working and after being laid off so I’m in touch with them. I’m not looking to replace my salary but just do enough to keep my skills sharp. 

    Beyond that, I’ve never actually put myself out there. I’ve never had the drive to be my own business owner. Personally, I have never felt good about putting myself out there, advertising myself, etc.

    Anyways, so I signed up for Upwork and got a message but I am pretty certain that it is a scam. 

    I ‘m in a few professional Facebook groups and one of them listed a great position. Turns out, you have to pay to access all of their job listings and apply. Is that normal for freelancers? Instinct tells me that it’s a scam but maybe things for freelancers are different? 

    Im familiar with the logistics of freelancer vs employee, but in terms of actually looking for work – how is it different from looking for a job? 

    1. foolofgrace*

      I wasn’t a freelancer, but I was a contractor. Once when I was job-hunting (this was during 2009) I found an ad that appealed to me. When I clicked on the link to go to the site, I discovered that people couldn’t see more about the jobs unless they sent money, they might have called it a subscription. I figured it was a scam and left it, although having been out of work for a while I couldn’t have afforded it anyway. I’m glad I didn’t have the money, I was pretty desperate. So I can’t tell you if it was a scam but it sounds like one to me.

    2. filosofickle*

      No, that is not normal for freelancers! I’m still drinking coffee and finding my brain; I’ll try to come back later and give more thoughts. (Speaking as 15-year freelancer/consultant.)

    3. Oh No She Di'int*

      Upwork is one of a number of gig-based freelancer marketplaces that have arisen over the last several years. My company used to use it on the hiring side several years ago, and we were able to find a decent amount of very qualified freelancers. And because you can negotiate jobs individually, we were always able to arrive at a good price that was also fair to the freelancer. (Part of our strategy was to be able to return to the same freelancers over and over, so it would not benefit us to underpay them because then we’d just end up looking for new freelancers all the time, which is a waste of time and money, not to mention just ethically suspect.)

      About a year ago, Upwork started charging freelancers to bid on open job listings. Presumably this was to curb the problem of overload. People seeking freelancers would often post a decent job and get inundated with hundreds of “applications”. It became unmanageable. Meanwhile, those applying would often just drop off into a black hole because, after all, hundreds of other people have applied for the same gig. Charging money (I believe at the time it was 15-90 cents depending on several factors) was supposed to cut down on the volume on both sides. In other words, the freelancers would have to really consider which jobs they wanted and thought they were qualified for as opposed to just hitting “apply” on everything.

      Now, I do understand the problem they were trying to solve. However, putting the solution on the backs of the freelancers is not only ethically wrong, it’s a perversion of how marketplaces are supposed to operate. You should not have to pay to apply for a gig essentially. Otherwise it become akin to a lottery and essentially rewards those with more resources to buy more lottery tickets.

      So, while I wouldn’t call it a “scam” exactly–they’re not lying to anyone or misleading anyone about the way they operate; and the jobs generally are actual jobs on offer–I would say that it’s unethical and if you have any other way of breaking in to a market, use it. This was one of the many reasons we chose to stop using Upwork.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        “About a year ago, Upwork started charging freelancers to bid on open job listings.”

        Is this the same as them taking a cut of their rate? When I signed up this week I noticed they charge a percentage of the hourly rate so I had to increase my rate, which I worry will price me out of a lot of work.

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          Nope. This is on top of that. I understand them taking a cut–they are after all providing the service of matching freelancers with gigs. But the fee to apply to individual gigs is over and above the cut.

    4. Potatoes gonna potate*

      This is one of the sites I came across. They advertised the job on a professional group I’m in and someone pointed out there’s a $10 fee to join. This was the response:

      XXXX is a boutique job site connecting small businesses with virtual professionals mostly XXX but not all. We do not charge commissions from job seekers or businesses for earnings received once you are hired. So what you earn, you keep.
      We do, however, have a membership fee starting at $9.99 to attract only serious job seekers and keep the candidate pool smaller.)
      If you are interested and have a hardship and are unable to pay that at this time, please let us know.
      You can also see some of the other recent job posts

      On their website it’s $9.99 for a 1 week trial and $200 a year. to access job listings……

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        Can you clarify the relationship you’re seeing between Upwork and the Facebook group you mention? Are you saying that you saw a posting on Facebook that directed you to Upwork? Or did it direct you to some other site? There are at least 3 different entities (maybe 4) interacting with each other in your example, and I’m not clear on the relationships.

        1. Potatoes gonna potate*

          Sorry for the confusion. No relationship between Upwork and the example above, just two examples of websites that offer freelance work. I’ve never sought out freelance work before so while I had a rough idea that Upwork took a cut, I haven’t seen any examples of the latter where they charge you a high fee simply to access their listings.

  19. August*

    Is anyone else at the point where they’re questioning if an issue is genuine, or if the isolation/lockdown is just getting to them? I’ve never had particularly strong negative feelings towards my coworkers when we were all in the office, but now (at week 8 of being in my apartment alone) I’m finding that their style of emailing/calling is really wearing on me. There’s a 45-year age gap between myself and my coworkers, and I’m tempted to write off some of the stuff I’m seeing as just a different generation, different email style. However, I’m also thinking that maybe it’s just laid bare the condescension that’s always been underlying our face-to-face conversations, just a little bit.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Bitch eating cookies, you mean?

      Maybe their usual personal interactions normally mitigate the style clash. Perhaps Fergus is always quick to brew another pot of coffee, and Celestine remembers your birthday with cherry pie. Absent those kindnesses you’re left only with the communications you find condescending.

      1. August*

        lmaoooo, I may very well be at the BEC stage! And yes, that actually describes it perfectly.

    2. MissBookworm*

      I absolutely feel the same. My level of patience for people is pretty much nil at this point.

    3. Resentful in [Redacted]*

      For the first 3-4 weeks of WFH my boss wasn’t responding to email or texts much, and when he did, it was never the important ones; it was stuff like group texts someone sent out about staggering shifts to go in and get the extra coffee out of the refrigerator if we wanted it. THAT he’d reply to, but not urgent business-related messages. The management team caught wind of this when they couldn’t get hold of him either, and it improved for about a week. He set up a standing meeting with me, but has missed all but one of them. He’s ignoring texts and emails from me, and then sending me stuff late on a Friday so that I have to put in a lot of hours over the weekend to get it done by Monday. I talked to him about that part of it back in March, and was going to talk to him about it again this week and give him a firm deadline, but then he missed our one-on-one meeting *and* our staff meeting (for a legitimate reason, but still on short notice). So… it’s almost EOB on Friday and I still don’t have what I need for Monday morning.

      Up until all this happened, I really enjoyed working with him. But now I realize just how much I accommodate his refusal to communicate by any medium other than F2F. If he doesn’t answer an email or a text, I just catch him when he walks by. He often forgets our weekly meeting, but remembers it when he comes in and sees me sitting there, and it’s not a big deal. The work we do is not all that important, in the scheme of things, and I’m happy to still have a job… but I have been so consistently annoyed by this that I don’t think I’ll ever enjoy working with him again.

      1. Jean (just Jean)*

        It’s possible that something slammed your boss this week. WFH under the current circumstances can be a bucket of problems: nonexistent child care, home has too little space and/or soundproofing for the employed adult(s) + whomever else lives there, shelter-in-place gets super lonely, grocery shopping can be super stressful, and/or other personal challenges suddenly swell up to Godzilla size. I’m speaking as someone who’s just emerged from a week of being depressed and discouraged for (various reasons). I think it’s the advice columnist Carolyn Hax who keeps reminding her readers to assume good intentions during this difficult time.

        TL;DR: Maybe your boss really is the home office of annoyance, but maybe he’s just hit a rough patch in life and was ducking out of contact to handle it.

      2. Tenebrae*

        Ugh. No advice, just wanted to commiserate. I had a boss who only wanted to communicate f2f. She was constantly out of office and freely admitted she forgot most of the things I told her. It was the worst. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

    4. Kiitemso*

      I feel you, I am getting so tired of my co-worker asking for reassurance or 2nd opinion or guidance on nearly every task she picks up. We chat through a platform because we both have to be on the phone, normally we just talk in between calls in the office, and in the office advising her is really simple. Now I’m so annoyed at her re-confirming how to double-check a database change she’s done at least 30 times at this point or her not reading things properly and being like, “I don’t quite understand..” and it is hard not to reply in a way that would be perceived as snappy.

      Don’t get me started on the person I had to email 4 times with the same info and she replied either brushing me off or talking about something completely different. “That’s great Sally but I still need A numbers to do X changes in the database as our boss wanted us to help you with. Right now the file you sent includes B numbers, not A numbers. I need the A numbers. I don’t have the A numbers.” ad nauseum.

      I wonder if it’s just all being in text that makes it so annoying.

      1. allathian*

        Any chance of calling them instead? Many people have the opposite problem of too many meetings, but sometimes a call can clear things up wonderfully for people whose minds work that way. (I’m fairly easily distracted and need my instructions in writing or else I’ll be writing to confirm, if nothing else works, I’ll take notes during the call and read them back at the person before we finish to make sure I got everything. Most people realize in short order that they’ll get better work out of me if they write.)

  20. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

    My boss and his son microwaved fish on Wednesday. The office STILL smells like fish (and neither myself nor the other accountant like fish at all) and I’ve been sick to my stomach since Wednesday from the smell.

    We are seeking suggestions for their torture.

    1. Pretzelgirl*

      Gross! If you can microwave a bowl of water with a lemon wedge in it. Then wipe the microwave out. It should help. Also leave a couple of those baking soda boxes you get for the fridge around. It may help absorb the smell.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Will give those a try, thanks for the suggestions. It’s just…..ewwwwwwnastygross.

    2. Lucy P*

      Cook something they hate the smell of and make them work in the lunch room?
      Once we had someone get so wrapped up in the book they were reading, that they didn’t realize they set the microwave to 50 minutes instead of 5 minutes. It took about a week to get rid of the burnt food and plastic smell from that area.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        He owns the company and is so temperamental he would just fire us. The microwave is in his office……

    3. Holey Moley*

      Gross! Check the sink/garbage disposal/trash to make sure nothing is sitting in there. Then I recommend bowls of baking soda or activated charcoal placed throughout the office.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        There is no sink/garbage disposal around here…the microwave is in his office (this is a very small company). My co-worker is using the microwave out in the warehouse….and I’m not allowed to use either microwave. (Don’t ask….I have no idea why I’m the only person here who is NOT allowed to have a hot meal but I have been banned from using the microwaves/toaster oven and am not allowed to speak to my co-workers.)

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            That’s what I ask all the time. One morning, he said “Destroyer, the guys have been making comments about your breaks and using the microwave……” I said “Ok, I will curtail those activities.” So I no longer take breaks and I’m not allowed to use the microwaves.

            There’s a whole bunch wrong here and my attorney has been kept apprised of things. Once the ‘rona is over and the job market has stabilized, I’m outta here.

        2. Reba*

          There is so much wrong here, the microwave is just the gross icing on the (fish)cake.

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            You have no idea!!!!!! There is SO MUCH wrong here…….

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            Winner winner chicken dinner! Tons wrong here……

        5. allathian*

          What the actual…? Sounds like you’re complaining about the deck chair arrangements while the iceberg is looming straight ahead.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Are you suggesting we nuke our socks….? ;)

    6. Aphrodite*

      Rather than baking soda, put a bowl of plain white vinegar in the microwave and shut the door. You can heat it up but it’s not necessary. It will absorb the smell nicely.

      I leave a bowl of it, replenishing it regularly, in my office microwave (I don’t heat up fish but I do like Mexican food and that can leave delicious but strong odors behind) and my home. I take it out to heat up food but immediately put it back in. Works wonderfully.

    7. Juneybug*

      Ugh, had a boss heat up dried squid in the microwave and it would stink for hours.
      How about a fan that blows the air towards his office so the smell lingers in there? (the larger the fan, the better)
      Spray air fresher towards their office? (I mean a lot of spray)
      Open their windows and shut their office door? (even better if its a cold day)
      Pretend to throw up in front of them? (carry a bucket/trashcan around to add to the effect)
      Leave coupons and menus for restaurants that serve fish? (maybe they will eat fish in another location)
      BTW, the way I got the dried squid guy to stop was I asked someone from upper leadership to stop by after lunch (can’t recall why I said) and once they walked in, they complained loudly about the smell. Never again did we have to deal with that horrible smell.

    8. Llama Face!*

      Those fiends!
      Well if you want a thematic revenge you could hide sardines under the hood of their car and in the grille. (Don’t really do this. But if you do, remember to watch out for fingerprints and cameras. ;) ;) )

  21. Waiting to be Future Endeavored*

    My organization, which is part of an academic institution in the US, has furloughed and/or reduced the schedules of staff. They aren’t sending any announcements about the specific job status of anyone because they say it’s confidential. But they do announce when someone leaves because they quit or retired. Even before this goes into effect, other areas are already asking who will be working.

    Is an employer not allowed to share furlough status of employees? What if the employee gives the employer specific permission? Otherwise, the employee is in the position of self disclosing (although employees are supposed to set up out of office replies with someone else to contact).

    1. INeedANap*

      How large is your organization?

      I work at a large university, and they will announce that furloughs have happened but not publicly announce who. Anyone who needs to know (direct supervisor, colleagues, anyone affected by that person’s work directly) knows, but it’s assumed to be private information otherwise.

      I don’t think there is any law against sharing the furlough status, but the default is to make it a need-to-know-basis only out of respect for the employee’s privacy.

    2. TV*

      I know at our organization, we are ALL getting furloughed for 80 hours this year. When we take those days/hours (we get to choose as they are treated like vacation days as far as supervisor requests go), I don’t think we have to disclose whether we are getting paid or not. But we do need to say we are out.

      But we did have layoffs and they did disclose who was impacted after their last day. They did this specifically for coordination purposes so we weren’t wondering if John Doe was on vacation or laid off. They also wanted to publicly acknowledge the years of service all these people had and what they have done for the organization.

    3. Rachel in NYC*

      Now I want to check the lists I get from my university’s central HR when they get updated, hopefully next week. (They list everyone in certain groups who are current employees are the university I work at.)

      1. Waiting to be Future Endeavored*

        We can see based on who’s removed from email lists. My area is 100+ but the institution is 2000+ staff. I do understand about the privacy concern, but people are sharing unofficially. There’s just no official way to do it. I did wonder if people could give permission for it to be shared.

  22. Apt Nickname*

    I thought I’d try to contribute something a bit light and funny, since I’m sure we’re all varying degrees of stressed out. What’s the most ridiculous but fairly harmless thing you’ve had a coworker do? I’ve got two from two different coworkers. Four years ago, a coworker put in an IT request because her computer wouldn’t start. Most of our jobs are not computer-dependent, plus we’ve got multiple computers available, so it wasn’t terribly urgent. Dear reader, her computer wasn’t plugged in.

    A different coworker, let’s call her Susan, puts stickers on all of her office supplies that say “Stolen from the desk of Susan Johnson.” These are company-provided supplies and include things like post-it notes. As far as I know, no one has a problem with items being stolen off their desk.

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Also doing IT support. Over the phone, I told a co-worker to reboot her computer. Literally ten seconds later she said, I just rebooted it and the problem is still there. I didn’t hear any rebooting noises. I ran down to her desk and asked her to show me what she did. She turned the monitor off and back on.

      In her defense, it was when computers first came out.

      1. GoryDetails*

        Ah yes, “rebooting” the monitor! I have lots of user-support memories in which I had to stand over someone’s shoulder and watch every movement and keystroke to figure out just what they were actually doing, as opposed to what they told me they were doing. [None of this helped with one case – a keypunch class back in, oh, 1978 or so, where one of my adult students was so terrified of the machine that she couldn’t press a key without jumping and asking what she’d done wrong… I was amused at the time to find that it was the young kids who would gleefully tackle the new technology and quickly learn how to handle the finicky machines.]

      2. Too Old For This*

        I had that one once! It was in the mid-90s, but still… most people knew enough about computers even then to know better than that. Also in that job, I had someone on the evening shift put a CD in a 5.25″ floppy drive and then panic because they couldn’t get it out (it was a road-map program that they used for dispatch, and they needed it pretty urgently). They wanted me to keep it a secret, but I had to tell my boss why I spent an hour and a half finding a screwdriver and taking apart a computer… in their manager’s office, where they weren’t supposed to be. :-)

      3. Jules the 3rd*

        I was witness to the same problem on a tech support call, around 1995.

    2. Eponymous*

      I’m known around the office as the person who can probably help fix something on your computer pretty quickly instead of emailing our help desk and waiting for a response. (I appreciate our help desk but sometimes you need a solution now, not tomorrow.) A manager came for help and was very concerned because he was trying to watch a project-related video but couldn’t hear any sound. He was listening to music only moments earlier, you see, so his speakers could not possibly be broken. Except that he was listening to music with his earbuds and had, for whatever reason, tucked them under his computer stand when he switched to watching the video but had not unplugged them. Simple solution and he was a bit red-faced, but I didn’t want to make a big deal of it. Unfortunately some of our other coworkers who are much prone to teasing witness the entire exchange…

    3. Granger Chase*

      Situations like these are why the IT Crowd is still one of my favorite workplace comedies. “Have you tried turning it off and on again?”

    4. Lucy P*

      We’ve been furloughed for over a month now. I’ve been to the office a few times for emergency items. On the last trip I printed out some bills that we have to retrieve online but mail in checks for, printed envelopes and stamped them. Gave them to the boss and said “you’ll have to write out checks since you have the checkbook”.
      Boss called me this week because they couldn’t find the checks that went with the invoices I had printed.

    5. DuckDuck*

      I realised my co worker was standing very, very, very close behind me. I turned around and asked what was up. They said they just liked to smell hair.

      In no other way were they creepy or bad to work with, so I chalked it up as fairly harmless although others may have a problem with it.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Re the stickers, as the front desk at OldExjob, I had to fight my coworkers’ perceptions that everything on my desk was public property for their use. I ordered myself a stapler that was a garish pink/red color so it was easy to find if someone nicked it and stuck a label on it with a picture of Milton Waddams and the caption, “MINE!”

    7. Annony*

      I know someone who works for tech support. The funniest story he told me was when he had to explain to a woman that “wireless” did not refer to the power cord.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ll give you two.
      1. In the early 90s, I worked with the person in charge of HR/admin. She called me in one day and asked me to restore the word docs she’d been working on before a crash.
      Me: “Sure, where do you save your files?”
      Her: “Save them? What do you mean?”
      She’d been there over a month and never once saved or closed any of the documents she’d printed. Luckily she HAD printed them. I remain astounded that she had gone a month without crashing already.
      2. Same time period, I temped for 6 weeks in a university hospital. The acting department chair was a brilliant MD/PhD and overall kind person. She adored her secretary — the only person who could fix her stapler. “No no don’t bother to get me a new one, I can live with this. Just leave it on my desk when you get it working would you?” Ladies&Gentlemen… it broke three times while I was there. Every time it was out of staples.

    10. Web Crawler*

      We use a messaging program at work that allows you to upload your own emojis. Now we have two different “dumpster fire” emojis to use when talking about network infrastructure.

    11. LGC*

      A different coworker, let’s call her Susan, puts stickers on all of her office supplies that say “Stolen from the desk of Susan Johnson.” These are company-provided supplies and include things like post-it notes. As far as I know, no one has a problem with items being stolen off their desk.

      I would just start putting stickers on everything that say “Stolen from the desk of Susan Johnson.” But then again, I want to watch the world burn.

    12. CupcakeCounter*

      Some people might not find this funny but the person it happened to did so I will share.
      My coworker/best friend has some fragrance sensitivity’s that sort of come and go depending on a few factors. Some days she is fine, others its a problem. Her reaction is similar to what a woman will experience during a menopause hot flash (no breathing issues just really flushed).
      Well the first day back after Christmas she is working at her desk when her suitemate comes in and sits down. They chat for a few minutes and go to work for hours with no issues. After lunch, he comes back starts to work again. Within seconds she is barging into my cube and hiding under my desk. Apparently he went to the gym at lunch and instead of a shower decided to douse himself in cologne and she reacted violently. I had to go grab her laptop from their work area for her and she worked under my desk for about an hour before she calmed down enough to move into a conference room.
      We tell that story at least once a year and usually end up on the floor laughing with tears running down our faces while our husbands just roll their eyes.
      And the coworker felt awful when she finally was able to talk to him about it and never wore that cologne at work again.

    13. Retail not Retail*

      “Manager, I just can’t get this darn water key to work, I guess my wrists are still messed up from earlier this summer.”

      “Okay here you go.”

      Righty tighty lefty loosey not the other way around. (In my defense! You have to make weird turns it’s not intuitive)

      A couple weeks ago coworker was like “you gave me the broken one!” “Oh did you check that it’s on?” “Of course I did!” “Did you check all the switches?” “…… yes …..”

      And the backpack leaf blower. Almost anyone can get it restarted if you’ve just turned it off. But you better have the switch flicked on the hand piece and the throttle bar in the right spot or both of you are falling over. (I mean it’s safer to take it off and restart it yourself but it’s faster to say yo come get me started.)

    14. Emilia Bedelia*

      The coworker who sat next to me told me very seriously at lunch one day while I was eating carrots and celery that she just LOVES the sound of people eating crunchy food. She was 100% serious about it – I guess it’s just a nice sound for her? Overall this is great for me to know since I no longer feel bad about eating loud vegetables at my desk.

    15. Koala dreams*

      Earlier this week, I started the computer, wondered about the black screen, and shut it off and re-started it several times. Luckily, before I called my boss to complain about my broken computer, I checked the cables. The cable to the computer monitor was not plugged in.

      So funny about Susan and the post it notes! That made me smile. I use a lot of post it notes, something that’s very funny to my co-workers. In the beginning of the year, my boss came by my desk and said: Here, I found some un-used post it notes, I thought you needed them. That made me smile, too. :)

    16. allathian*

      Ouch! Sounds like Susan was fed up with walking to the office supplies store, then.

  23. matcha123*

    The thread the other day about the new, younger guy whose supervisor felt like she was being disrespected really resonated with me.
    I have a hard time giving and taking compliments, and when it comes to feedback on areas I need to improve, I really don’t know how to respond.
    What are some good ways of responding to feedback? On the rare occasions I do get feedback at work, I say,”Ok, I’ll do that.” and write down what they’ve instructed me to do.

    As an aside, a few people in that thread mentioned that the guy’s response wouldn’t be that out of place in the midwest. I’m from the midwest and have long wondered if there are specific communication styles that transplants from the midwest* have that don’t mesh well with you or your area?

    *midwest = Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Iowa, Indiana, Minnesota

    1. Midwestern as Heck*

      Uffdah can I talk about being Midwestern in the workplace. I briefly worked in California and there were definitely quite a few mannerism that did not really translate well into the workplace. The usual “yeah no yeah” for yes and “no yeah no” for no certainly caused quite a bit of confusion.

      Also don’t bring puppychow into work and get confused when people ask why you’re eating dog food.

      1. matcha123*

        By all means, let it out! I actually like being from my state and city, but I notice when I’ve searched for articles by midwesterners working in larger cities either in LA/SF or NYC, they all kind of talk about how much they disliked the midwest.

        I live abroad and people here have been taught that Americans are DIRECT. That sometimes causes awkwardness when they thought they were being ‘polite’ by being direct in a way I found incredibly rude.

        1. Midwestern as Heck*

          Agree. I am an excessively proud Wisconsinite and love my state more than anywhere else in the world (come and fight me FIBs (kidding)).

          I would get a lot of questions about Wisconsin obviously and some people were less than nice about my beautiful home state, with the constant cow jokes and implying that the people from Wisconsin were all hicks and the like.

          In general it was in good fun though. Until someone said that happy cows come from California.

          1. Black Horse Dancing*

            I’m a Midwest ex pat in New Mexico–our DWI programs run with the motto ENDWI. I stared at it and asked aloud What did Wisconsin do to New Mexico? Non Midwest people don’t get it.

      2. Jaid*

        …Puppychow? Oh, homemade Muddy Buddy Chex Mix! If it’s coated in powdered sugar, I wonder why anyone would think it looks like dog food, though.

        1. Midwestern as Heck*

          I just said in passing one day that I brought puppychow into the office and didn’t show anybody the container. Questions ensued.

      3. Reba*

        yeah, no… no, yeah… I’m laughing because I use these so much. I have even found myself writing them lately (since much more is going on by chat and email) and they make even less sense in written form.

        FWIW I am from the Midwest/Ohio river valley and did not read that guy’s compliments as particularly Midwestern. Maybe the norm of acting out a high degree of politeness, but not the compliments as such. I’d be annoyed like the LW too.

    2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Not really an issues but just funny odd things….
      * Bubbler? – Yea, I know what it is now but the first time I heard it, I didn’t.
      * “We’re going to lunch, wanna come with?” – Yes, I know the “us” is implied and obvious but to me it is still odd.

      1. matcha123*

        I only know ‘bubbler’ because it came up in my linguistics classes. I love hearing about linguistic and other regional differences.

        1. Windchime*

          I only know what a “bubbler” is because a friend from Back East told me. (Calinda, if you’re reading this….I miss you).

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I spent the first half my life in Michigan and the last quarter in Indiana, and it never occurred to me that “come with” was a midwest thing. Haha. (The intervening quarter was in the Seattle area, and let me tell you, as someone who completely fails at “guess” culture, it’s been a rough life. :P )

        My husband, who’s been Indiana all his life, says “Do what?” where I would say “Say again?” I’m not sure which of us is the weird one there.

        I do like Indiana’s “pitch-in” better than Michigan’s “potluck.”

        1. Managing to Get By*

          That’s funny because I’ve lived in the Seattle area my whole life and the people I interact with are much more “ask” than “guess”.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            In retrospect, part of my issue may have been that the social circle I fell into in Seattle was also mostly of Midwestern or Southern origin :)

      3. ThatGirl*

        Bubbler is primarily a Milwaukee-area term, I have only heard it from a college friend who now lives there.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      One good response to constructive feedback is “thanks for letting me know that’s an issue. Of course I’ll be happy to make those changes/correct those errors/put those practices into place,” and to ask questions if it’s not clear what exactly you need to do to improve.

      1. matcha123*

        Thanks :)
        Now that I’m fully working from home, communicating with coworkers has become a lot easier.
        But this is what I need when I make y return to the office.

    4. Liz Case*

      Folks in India working with folks in Germany. Indian coworkers complained about how rude the Germans were. German coworkers complained that the Indians were wishy-washy and couldn’t get the the point. We Canadians were often the go-betweens.
      I did a workshop which went into different communication styles and which were most common in which countries, and how to modify if your personal communication style clashed with a coworkers. And suddenly SO MUCH made sense.

    5. NW Mossy*

      I’m a Midwest transplant to the PNW (moved in ’09), and I’ve found that it messed with my self-concept of how assertive/confident I am. Prior to coming here, I’d always considered myself to be more low-profile – rarely the first to speak, reserved, and easily intimidated by the forcefulness of those around me.

      Here, I come off as decisive and assertive in contrast to the much more laid-back, consensus-driven approach that’s the local standard. Almost all the people I work with are go-along-to-get-along types, which puts me into a weird spot. If I put my idea out there first it’s almost a certainty that I’ll get agreement, so I have to be cautious about doing that when we really need multiple ideas to evaluate. On the other hand, it’s sometimes advantageous to be the one who drives us to a decision to avoid another 30 minutes of talking in circles. It’s a fine line, and I have to be mindful about it all the time.

  24. SaffyTaffy*

    My state is going to start opening things up at the end of this week. And my workplace may start bringing some people back at the beginning of June. And I’m so nervous about it! I miss everybody and I miss my space, but it’s been such RELIEF to work at home. I don’t get migraines anymore, my spine and shoulders don’t hurt, I’m saving money and sticking to a healthy diet. Most of all I’m not emotionally tired at the end of the day. I don’t want to lose this.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Can you talk to your manager about continuing to work from home, even if only a few days a week? My feeling is that a lot of workplaces are going to be more flexible about this kind of thing having seen it work during isolation time. It’s worth a shot.

      1. pancakes*

        Or tinted glasses. There are several manufacturers of glasses that look like reading glasses but are tinted to reduce the strain on one’s eyes.

    2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Concerning your spine and shoulders, if you haven’t already, can you have someone look at your desk to make sure it is ergonomically correct. I was having severe wrist pain until the ergonomics person came out and did something as simple as move my keyboard and mouse closer to me. It may be worth looking into. A second time, severe ankle pain was relieved just by getting a foot rest.

      If there is no such person, see if maybe you can get another chair, or reorganize your desk or something. If you don’t have a desk job, talk to your supervisor about maybe getting some back support or a back brace or something.

    3. leapingLemur*

      The migraines might be caused by the florescent lights at work. Wearing a wide-brimmed hat can help with that.

    4. nep*

      I really hope your organisation and others will decide to allow those who can work from home continue to do so. Seems like a win-win-win-win-win to me.

  25. Diahann Carroll*

    Rant time!

    This coronavirus situation, along with all of the severe weather we’ve been having lately, has pushed me to my irritability breaking point. People are getting on my damn nerves in a way they never did before (well, in some cases anyway – some people were working my last nerve before all hell broke loose).

    My tiny team direct counterpart decided to send our grandboss a snarky ass email arguing numerical values and how to write them in proposals this week and copied me on the email saying, “I’m sure Diahann has some opinions on this as well.” But before she sent the email (literally seconds), she sends me a message through Teams telling me she was going to send him an email arguing her case and include me on it, to which I responded, “No need.” She and I had already talked about this situation the day before – grandboss was reviewing something I edited where I corrected his previous edit of turning numbers one through three into numerals instead of spelling them out in accordance with our style guide (and AP’s Stylebook, which says numbers one through nine are written out in most cases). I told her to reject his edit and just send the document back to the team responsible for it to get their final approval so we could input it into our document management system. Well, her incessant need to constantly one up people and “win” led her to writing this long ass scribe to grandboss where she meticulously laid out how wrong he was AND mocked the fact that he seemingly didn’t know this rule in the first place having been in the business for over 20 years.

    This is the same coworker that grandboss does not really care for in the first place; the same one he was thisclose to letting go only a couple months into her tenure because she refused to meet with him to discuss her attitude problem and constant need for attention. This same person decided she was going to include me in her fuckery after I told her I wanted nothing to do with this, to let it go, reject the edit, and leave it the way I originally corrected it (with the spelled out version). But no – she has to always be right, and she always has to shit on other people in the process of reminding them that she’s right. Sometimes I really just want to tell her to shut the f%^k up, especially when she talks over us in calls, answers questions not posed to her, and just generally feels the need to give her two cents on everything – whether she has any experience on the topic or not. I’ve had it with her, and apparently, so has grandboss because he sent a response to both of us saying she needs to schedule a meeting between the three of us to discuss this.

    I didn’t respond to the original damn email to begin with, and I ignored the response as well. Grandboss and I have a really good relationship, so I figured if he asks me why a meeting didn’t get scheduled (coworker seemingly didn’t respond to him and no Teams invite went out), I’ll tell him this was coworker’s crusade and I had no parts of it and don’t care to be sucked into some power struggle that has nothing to do with me.

    Then this morning, another coworker I usually like tried to send me a message through Teams at 7am asking if I had time for a brief call. First of all, I’m just getting up at 7 – no, I am not having a call with you when I barely had time to brush the damn sleep out of my eyes. And everyone I work with knows I don’t log on until 9-9:30 anyway – what the hell would possess you to think I care about anything you have to say before then?! I get she’s in another time zone overseas, but she needs to get a clue.

    Then, she sent me an email when she realized she wasn’t going to get a response asking me to review a document for her by the end of my day today because they want to have our executives review it Monday. Never mind the fact that I already reviewed this shit back in March and told them what they needed to fix. Never mind that the people who wrote and revised the document had months to make rewrites and submit them to me for approval. No – they want me to drop everything I’m doing today (a review of a 175 page proposal) to look at their shit because they can’t read a damn calendar to see when something has to be submitted to execs for approvals.

    When I logged in for the day, I told this coworker I don’t have the capacity to do her review at this time and for future reference, she needs to not try and contact me before 9am my time because I will often not be awake while she’s working so she won’t get a timely response. I also explained that I have a massive review project with a deadline (for me) of next Wednesday. This bish had the nerve to send me a response saying that while she understood that what I’m working on is long, her document isn’t that long, so she’d really appreciate it if I just did hers first. I responded back with a much sharper tone than the first email and advised her that I don’t care how short her document is – I already had plans to get something else done today, and I will not be entertaining any review requests from anyone on such short notice, especially when they’ve had months to get it done. She sheepishly came back and asked if I could fit it in Monday, and I said I would.

    The nerve of this bish to act like my damn deadlines mean jack shit and I need to bow to her demanding ass.

    TL;DR: EVERYBODY’S GETTING ON MY NERVES and will learn real quick that I am not to be f%+€£d with right now.

    2. Anonymous Tech Writer*

      Full sympathy Diahann. Days like this I’m glad the tea kettle is nearer my desk than the bottle of Scotch.
      I just added a note onto page 3 of 6 related, previously released documents. Three people approved and went home for the weekend. My fourth person called and asked about page 1, which I hadn’t changed. Since 2018 three of these have born the text “Same as $OtherProduct (copy and paste from $OtherProduct manual” Not even a full stop at the end of the sentence.
      That person has retired so I can’t even ask what happened.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        OMG, I feel your pain so much. If my acid reflux wasn’t acting up so badly, I’d be reaching for the hard liquor as well.

    3. leapingLemur*

      On the positive side, maybe you won’t have to deal with snarky co-worker for much longer. Sounds like grandboss might be ready to cut her loose. It might be a good idea to let grandboss know that you don’t know why you were included in her e-mail; you didn’t want any part of that.

      You did a great job telling person 2 about what she was doing wrong. Honestly, she had months to get it back to you and lets it sit until it’s an emergency!?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Right – they do this stupid stuff All The Time and I tell them over and over again that they need to give more notice before requesting my assistance on anything. I’m busy. I do multiple different things for two different teams – I’m not sitting here twiddling my thumbs waiting around for something to do. I work on things in order or importance, deadlines, and what I happen to have the brain capacity for on any given day. These damn non-writers need to stop acting as if what I do is just a basic spell-check that can take five minutes – it doesn’t. My reviews take hours, hours I currently do not have. Ugh.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yes! I am so happy I’m off next Friday and then the last week of the month. I can’t take these people for much longer.

    5. Sara without an H*

      Words that should be posted universally: “Lack of planning on your part is not an emergency on mine.”

      You handled it correctly. Enjoy your weekend.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Amen. And thank you – it’s about to get off to an amazing start thanks to my apartment management team. They had a local ice cream shop deliver all residents a free pint of ice cream this evening, so I’ll be downing this while bingeing Netflix and Hulu originals all weekend, lol.

  26. esemess*

    Does anyone have tips on how to train someone who moves much slower than you?

    I am an external processor and can decide things pretty quickly. My trainee is an internal processor and seems to need more time to think through things (plus it is hard to learn a new job!). We’ve never met in person, on account of the current life situation, so I’m struggling to remotely train while ensuring that I’m doing my best to adapt to unique learning styles.

    1. vampire physicist*

      I don’t know if I have any tips, but I’ve found as someone who is a fast worker, just telling myself ahead of time “this is going to take 1.5-2 times the time it would take you alone” is helpful. I’m a person who has a lot of internal expectations on how long things will take and gets frustrated when things take much longer, so setting that personal expectation is useful.
      It sounds like you’re already being pretty empathetic and understanding, so that’s good. Is this something where you can also give them some time to work on their own? Like, if you’re someone who tends to learn best by doing and talking through, but they need time to mull things over, are there instruction manuals or similar you can send them in advance so that they’ve already had some time to process? This won’t help with decisions they need to amend on the spot but giving them time on their own to prepare could speed things up during the time they’re actively working with you.

      1. Washi*

        I agree with this. I’m naturally a brisk worker who picks up processes quickly, and I’ve learned I can’t really use myself as a benchmark. I pick a coworker who does solid work and imagine teaching them the task and how long it would take, and use that.

        Also maybe you’ve already done this, but have you asked them what’s been helpful for them in training for past jobs? Some people will not have an answer to that, but some people do know what works well for them and will be able to verbalize it.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I actually practice this sometimes. As I’m going through a process I do daily or close to, I talk through it like I was training someone else, explaining the whys and wherefores of my actions and talking through the process. (I worked from home even before the world melted, so I’m not disturbing any other coworkers, though my dogs think I’m a little weird sometimes.) I’m not a great trainer normally, but practice in vocalizing the steps and reasons and processes has helped, I think.

          1. esemess*

            Once I’m done with this training round, I am going to try to keep up this skill. The process is reminding me of areas where I need to communicate better, and I want to ensure that I improve for my next trainee!

    2. Amy Sly*

      When I train, I walk someone through my thought process, asking them to answer each question that I go through internally to make the “quick” decision.

      e.g. The customer asked for this shoe, so let’s find it in the stockroom. Is it men’s or women’s? (Walk to the correct side) Is it open or closed toe? (Walk to the right aisles) Is it dressy, casual, or sporty? (Walk to right aisle) What’s the brand name? (Walk to right section) What’s the style name? What’s the color? (Walk to right shelf) What size? (Trainee pulls the correct box.) At another store, it was mens/womens, type, size, color, brand name, style name. At yet another, it was mens/womens, type, color, heel height, style name. My ability to locate shoes five times faster than the trainee was because I knew how the stock room was arranged and therefore what order to evaluate information.

      The trick is figuring out the cause of the slowness. If they’re obtaining the information they need and applying the correct algorithms to use it, the speed will come with practice in time. If they aren’t sure where to find the information they need, or feel like they’re trying to drink from a firehouse, then they need help in asking the right questions or sorting through what’s irrelevant to find the relevant information. If they’re slow because they don’t understand how to combine the information, then they need training on the purpose of the algorithms and how it works.

      1. esemess*

        Excellent points–thank you!

        We have A LOT of shoe options to learn, so it totally makes sense that it will take time to build up speed and confidence.

    3. Lucy P*

      I have someone that works with me that has to help with basic accounting, but flips out whenever we mention numbers of spreadsheets. I’m still looking for a way to get them beyond this.
      They’ve done similar work before, but spreadsheets were always templates created by someone else. Accounting software was more modern than what current company uses.
      In fact, they suggested for several years that we should farm out payroll because it was easier that way.

    4. Reba*

      I wonder if your tasks would be suited to breaking up the sessions more. So you are not sitting there waiting for the trainee to do something, while they are getting progressively more flustered because you are waiting for them…

      Like, could you run through a scenario or chunk of information, then leave them to it, giving them time to percolate and for questions to arise. Set a check in time for an hour or whatever, review and then start the next chunk. I’m adapting this from classroom and tutoring experience so your mileage may very much vary!

      1. esemess*

        We are doing things in chunks with set timelines! From some of these comments it seems like I’m probably doing okay and just need to give myself grace that remote training is hard.

        Thanks for the feedback!

    5. Kettricken Farseer*

      One of the things that I do with new recruits is ask them what style of learning works best for them. So, if someone needs to see things written out, then I do that. If they learn better by being shown, I do that. I also lay the expectation of how long the learning curve is and regularly talk about where they are along it, so it’s clear if the person is falling behind or if they’re where you’d expect them to be.

      1. esemess*

        I’ve done all of these things! This makes me feel better.

        I’m working with a trainee who seems unsure of what she needs, and every time I ask for feedback I’m met with silence. This is very much the opposite of me, so I’m trying to remember that silence doesn’t mean everything is terrible. :)

        1. Chaordic One*

          I know this is frustrating, but it could well be that she is indeed unsure of what she needs, at least for now. She’ll need to go through the procedure a couple of times before she can tell you. Meanwhile, after you’ve found out her learning style (someone who needs things written down vs. someone who needs to be shown) work with that.

  27. Working mom*

    Working moms!!!
    I had a job interview recently for an amazing job. The downfall: it’s full time and a 30 minutes committee each way. I’ve been fortunate enough to work part time since my kids were both. What are the pros and cons of working full time as a mom. Am I crazy? I have 4 kids, ages 5-13

    1. Schnoodle HR*

      I have two, one is 3 months the other 4 years old. I’ve always worked full time with kids.

      I would say, with the extra money, hire some help for the house whether it’s cutting grass or house cleaners. Set a schedule for things like laundry. Make sure the kids (and husband) are doing their fair share as well.

      Use your extra money after that wisely. Make it worth while.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I find it interesting that we don’t have dads making similar posts . . . .

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        One of the cons of working full time as a mom is that people will judge you for doing so.

        But it’s a trap, because they judge you for going part-time, and they judge you for not working.

        And the real trap is that if you don’t have children at all, they judge you for that too.

        You can’t win. So you choose what actually works for your family, and ppppffffffrtttththth to the commentary.

        2. allathian*

          Oh, you’re so right!
          Life got so much easier when I quit caring what other people thought and just went with what works for me and my immediate family.
          That said, I’m really glad that dads are more willing to take parental leave now than they were 10 years ago when it was an issue for me.

      2. ...*

        It isn’t helpful to point that out to her though. Sure, dads aren’t asking the same thing. Doesn’t change the particular situation she’s in right now.

    3. Pretzelgirl*

      I have 3 kids, 3,5 and 9. I have always worked and mostly had a 30-60 min commute. It will be challenging at first. I usually work through lunch so I can leave an hour, earlier than most traffic hits. Assign chores, meal prep, insta pot and crock pot will your new BFFs!

    4. Half-Caf Latte*

      When I was in grad school, a beloved advisor told me that if I wanted the PhD, I needed to do it before gradeschool age, or once the espresso shots were grown. At the time, I only had a newborn, and she was like – it’s so much more time consuming to parent older kids, they have their own needs and places to go, you can work around a newborn much easier, and I’m finding that to be true (but also working around a newborn is super hard! just a different hard). Once there are activities to go to again, I’d think about how they’d all get to those things if you were the chauffeur previously. I have one friend who had an au pair for grade school and middle school aged kids, because she was like – the extra driver and homework helper is essential

      Pre-COVID, I had several convos with friends who also worked full-time, high responsibility jobs, and we often daydreamed about cutting to 80%, because the extra time would be so useful. We all thought our varied employers would over time manage to increase the workload back to 100%, and we’d be stuck doing 40 hours of work in 32 for 32 hours pay.

      1. Overeducated*

        I work full time with an infant and a 5 year old and fantasize about working 25-32 hours. (I had a 32 hour job with one weekend day when my first was a baby and loved it, but it was a dead end with no benefits.) My mom was able to negotiate part time professional work for many years, but said “it’s a trap, you do the same work for less pay.” So perhaps you’re right.

        I think it’s not the working that’s hard, it’s the commuting and kid transportation logistics. That’s what I would weigh in my decision.

    5. Super Duper Anon*

      Not a pro or a con, but as a decision point before you decide to take the job, do you have access to full-time reliable childcare that can cover your work day plus commute time? Plus back up plans, like what happens if a kid is sick? Obviously, this may be different right now with the pandemic and remote working, but will apply if you have to start going into an office again.

      Personally, I like working full time, especially now that my kids are older, but, the child care stuff still takes lots of planning.

      1. Mervyn Bunter*

        +1000 and I’d add in summer childcare considerations. For my two kids (now teens), one summer I had a babysitter staff of six to ensure complete coverage (due to sitter vacations, school/activity schedules, etc).

    6. Susie Q*

      My commute is 30 minutes (not a problem and short for my area). I have a 10 month old. It’s been hard leaving her in daycare but my earning potential is too high for me to stay home.

    7. button*

      I would say, calculate how much it will cost you in gas, increased childcare, and possibly increased eating out/prepared food or household help. That will give you a better idea of if the salary is worth it. I agree with Schnoodle in making sure your husband and kids, esp older ones, are on board with taking on more chores. The last thing you want is to sign up to work full time and also keep doing as much housework as you are now.

    8. ..Kat..*

      Can you use the commute for “me” time as much as possible? Listen to podcasts or audio books that you like?

    9. BethDH*

      I really like working full time, but I think part of that has been finding ways to make it work. Some times it has felt like work was more of a break than the weekend.
      Some minor points that were important to me:
      -given the long commute, is it something that can be enjoyable or at least neutral? Mine was on pretty roads, minimal traffic, and gave me time to hear my own thoughts and listen to podcasts.
      -can childcare (and summer camps) be somewhere that is equally/more convenient for your partner to do pickup &or drop off? That takes up so much time and energy, and also leads to taking on more of the domino responsibilities, like picking up sick kids midday or doing doctors appointments.
      I also recommend reallocating home responsibilities but not in a you-or-me sense, which leads to too many fights about equity. I found it really helpful to make every conversation about workload also include “drop it entirely,” “do it less,” and “hire someone”. It just felt less defensive — and that’s not just about women working. We had the same conversations when my husband had work changed.

    10. allathian*

      Depends also a bit on where you live. Is your oldest at least able to travel to and from school on their own and do hobbies or extracurriculars without getting driven everywhere?
      As a parent, it’s also perfectly fine to refuse to allow your child to participate in some extracurricular that takes a lot of your time and effort.
      I’m not in the US and full-time work for me is 37.5 hours per week. We do have a generous working-hours bank and lots of flexibility, so my actual weekly working hours vary from about 20 to 50+ hours, but they average out to less than 40.

    11. Generic Name*

      I have one child, so my situation is different, of course. I did work part time for several years, but now work full time. When I worked part time, I constantly felt pulled in multiple directions. On the upside, I had time to take my child to extracurricular activities. If you have a partner, I’d sit down and talk about expectations in terms of who does what. I’m guessing you do the bulk of the kids activities, cooking, and chores? That will have to change. With that many kids, it will be very difficult for one person to drive them to activities in addition to working full time, so your partner will have to help or you’ll have to cut back on the kids’ extracurriculars. If you discuss things with your partner and they are unwilling to do half of the work, then I personally would not increase your hours.

  28. Nessun*

    I am really struggling with a task for my boss. She wanted to do a webinar in late June on a topic that was relevant for our group, but has now decided that mid to late May would be better because we can spin it to relevance for current events. I understand why this is happening, but this is the first time I’ve dealt with this type of thing and June was an attainable goal for me. May…not so much? I’m worried because the contacts I was cultivating to figure out how to do this (at my massive company) are already stretched thin with their own jobs due to all the extra webinars and online learning that’s now required – they would pve to help but their response time to my questions is now weeks instead of days, and I dont have weeks! And our vendor for the tech is swamped too, and not responding to me (I imagine they’re busy with other requests from those same contacts I can’t reach).

    I’m worried this isn’t going to come together at all – we won’t be able to hit the deadline my boss has set, and she will be pissed. And she’s already talking this webinar up to colleagues! I don’t know if she’s said anything to customers…

    I really don’t want to fail at this. It’s useful info for clients right now, good for my development, and my boss really wants to get it done. But I just don’t know if I can! I’m almost paralyzed to the point of inaction now because I can’t think how to do this successfully. Not sure there’s anything to be done, but thanks for letting me vent.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Have you actually told your boss that the shortened timeline is not as feasible for you? Is it possible that she really doesn’t understand how much of a crunch this is? I’ve had similar problems with bosses who are “ideas people” and don’t understand what actually goes into it. I am very sympathetic.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This! Tell your boss exactly what problems you’re experiencing as a result of the shortened timeline, let her know you’re as eager to make this a success as she is, and ask if she can help you find a way of solving those problems, like lighting a fire under the vendor you mentioned.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Seconding this advice. Make some of this your boss’s problem, and she’ll push that webinar back to a feasible date.

    2. Grits McGee*

      Can you ask your boss to leverage her work capital to get the information you need from your contacts, or if she has contacts of her own that can be called on? (If that is your primary concern about being able to pull off this webinar in May.)

  29. Another PhD student*

    At what point should I reach out to a company about whether my offered position is still intact, as well as whether it will be starting remote considering the present situation?

    I was given an offer to start as a paint engineer at a teapot design and manufacturing company, with a start date set for mid-to-late June (a few months after my graduation) to give myself time to finish up projects, travel, and move to the other side of the country. Now with the current situation, I am obviously not going to be traveling and moving is turning into a bit of a logistical nightmare. I know the interns at this company are going to be remote for the summer, so it’s possible that I’ll be remote start as well, but I haven’t heard anything from the company about it. Right now, it’s a bit over a month and a half before my start date, so I am trying to figure out when it’s the most appropriate to contact them – I didn’t want to do so at the beginning of the various state shutdowns, because the answer would almost certainly be that they’re still figuring everything out and someone not set to start for a couple of months is definitely not the most urgent issue anyone was (or is) dealing with right now.

    For people who are still hiring/on-boarding people, how much ahead of a start date would you want someone to contact you, keeping in mind that this is someone who will need to move cross-country if they aren’t starting remotely?

    1. 867-5309*

      I think Alison previously shared an email script for this… I’ll post later if I can find it.

      It would be fine to reach out now.

      1. Another PhD student*

        I saw the script earlier, thanks for reminding me of it! I was mostly concerned about timing, so thanks for the confirmation that now isn’t too soon.

  30. Sharkie*

    Hi Unemployed readers! What are you doing to keep your name out there? I’m putting in a good application once a week but my Industry was completely gutted by covid. Any other ideas? I’m in my mid to late 20’s so my network isn’t amazing.

    1. 867-5309*

      What is your industry?

      I also think Alison’s frequent advice about a great cover letter is good. People often only submit one when it’s required (and then only do something generic) and they can make a big difference.

      1. Sharkie*

        Sports. And my cover letters is why I am only applying to 1 job a week :) That and almost no one is hiring since no one is playing

    2. Unsolicited*

      Have you considered remote volunteering via VolunteerMatch or CatchaFire? What about earning free certifications from HubSpot, Google, among others? Could you reach out to former classmates, professors and your alma mater’s professional directory? You might also consider applying to work for the U.S. Census, which will begin field operations in June.

      Good luck with your job search and networking!

    3. Manon*

      I’m working in performing arts administration and, before everyone canceled their seasons, had been interviewing for post-graduation jobs. It’s just not realistic to only apply to arts jobs considering that it’s not certain that most places will be able to reopen by the fall – I’d imagine it’s the same for sports.

      Can you look for jobs with a similar function outside your industry? I’ve opened my search to admin/development positions in pretty much any sector in the hopes that some places are still hiring.

      1. Sharkie*

        I have extended my search to beyond sports but my heart isn’t really feeling it. I know it’s silly but this is all I wanted to do since I was little and it’s hard to come to terms that this part of who I am is gone

  31. Want to be better*

    I have a new boss coming in a couple of months and I am NOT EXCITED. I work directly for a Dean of a college. I’ve been in my position 6 years and I feel like I’ve made so much progress with the current Dean. She is finally on board with some of my ideas and we’re making progress! So of course her term is ending now. I’ve met the incoming Dean – he is a nice guy but honestly has no idea what he is getting himself into. He was a professor at another institution a decade ago, but has no administrative experience at all (comes from industry.)

    At the first administrator’s meeting when he came to meet us, he asked why there were so many of us? How many people does it take to run a college? Asked the same thing of the staff meeting – what do all of you do?

    He’s not malicious, just clueless. And now with the pandemic and the economic issues, it is going to be even more difficult next semester. University line is “hoard cash” – no spending right now. It will loosen up a little in the fall but it won’t be normal.

    I know that the incoming Dean deserves to have an enthusiastic staff who wants to implement his vision! But honestly, his vision is not informed by reality. It is like stepping back in time and erasing all the progress I (and others) have made over the last few years. I DO NOT WANT TO DO IT!

    But I felt I had to turn down a job offer last month because of the uncertainty. I know for sure that the best thing for me to do is keep my job for a year, keep my head down and ride out the pandemic safely. Any strategies for how to reframe my mind from thinking of this as a wasted year, just surviving until I can get out? I want to be better than that but I am not sure I am.

    2. Holey Moley*

      I ran into something like this when I worked for a high position person and the position changed to someone new who was fundamentally different (laid back get the job done to micromanager and uptight). A few things that helped me: try to focus on the positives of having a new person. He asked why so many people were at the meeting…. do all of those people actually need to be there or is it just for information only? The new dean will bring a new perspective and new ideas. Some will be great and some will annoy the crap out of you. But you have to remember change can be good. I tried to focus on the good things about having a new boss in that position. It meant that some of the things that were always happening that were bad and a “it is what it is” situation got changed or eliminated. Also… this might help a little but remember that you work for the position and not the person. Your loyalty is to the office and school not this guy.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I’m in a similar situation, about to be assigned to a different manager that I desperately do not want to report to. I’ve had two conversations with him in the past, plus seen him in action at various group meetings, and I think he’s incredibly ill-suited for his role and the widespread suspicion is that he only has this role because he’s church-going buddies with the top guy.

      Last year he joined our group from another part of the company and no one had any idea what he actually did – he has a manager title but produced nothing and had no direct reports. As of next week he’ll have a dozen direct reports. I very much doubt he’ll be the kind of career advocate I need given that he has so little management experience, visibility, or capital in general. He also just threw a colleague under the bus when a meeting got contentious. The really sad thing was, up to that point, that colleague (a friend of mine) was the only person I’ve ever heard say anything positive about this manager. Oh, and he even has a pet project that I’m sure he’ll think I’m the right person to own it (technically that makes sense), but it’s an old, dated concept that has never worked for several key reasons and I will not spend any real time on it. I’m just dreading reporting to him if it’s a long term assignment.

      So, how I plan to manage it if I don’t get my wish to be transferred to someone else (I’ve made my case, they’re still deciding)… Holey Moley’s last few sentences. Loyalty and effort go to the work and the employer in general, definitely not to the individual manager. I know what I have to do to get my project the support it needs. To the extent that I can keep him on my side by being pleasant to work with and provide easy-to-approve solutions, I think I can get him to approve and provide support. I have a good relationship with multiple other managers (peers to him and one-two levels up) so I don’t think things can go too far off the rails.

      I don’t know if it’s really possible to go with a version of malicious compliance, but that’s an option too. Like with this dead-end project my manager has in mind. If it’s assigned to me, yeah I’ll do something with it, but that something will somehow make it clear that the project is a non-starter. That’s a clear result, if not the one he thinks he’ll be getting. So I wonder for the Dean, if some of his unrealistic ideas might be enthusiastically taken into consideration, only to slowly (so that everyone is on the same page) reveal that gee, it just doesn’t work the way he thought and maybe this other solution is better?

    4. longtimeremote*

      Was it phrased that directly? It’s common for new bosses, especially those doing a change of industries, to want to have a feel for what each person’s role is in the new industry. If it was as abrupt as “why are there so many of you?”, that’s one thing – but if he wanted everyone to give an in-depth view of their roles for his own knowledge that’s expected and normal.

      Another thing to keep in mind, especially if you’ve worked in academia exclusively – this guy has both experience with university admin (albeit as a professor) and experience in industry admin. If you or others only have experience in university admin, perhaps the new guy is right to be skeptical of how work is done on the university side of things? Without industry experience, you may not be able to make a fair comparison, but it sounds like the new dean can.

  32. Emma*

    Has anyone taken a training course from a ‘management consulting’ type of company they actually found useful? Stuff like communication skills or presentation workshops?

    The ones I’ve been on in the past (mandated by employers) have mostly felt like a mix of common logic and fluff, with very little insight or helpful information. I wonder how much these people get paid to peddle so much non-content.

    1. Middle Manager*

      I find the Career Tools/Manager Tools people really helpful. I haven’t been able to take any of their trainings, but I listen to the podcasts regularly and they seem pretty solid.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Stephen Covey classes. Yes it was common sense and logical — but organized in a way that was new to me. And they gave me some good vocabulary & examples that helped clarify issues with managers.

  33. 867-5309*

    Just a little vent:
    We are hiring for a customer success manager position and two of the pre-screen questions are about familiarity with software.

    People are entering 5, 10 and 15 years experience for one of the software programs that’s been around less than 4. It’s unfortunate because I then automatically reject them because they are either lying to game the system or not paying attention. In a couple cases, even if they had listed 0 years experience, we would have otherwise considered them due to overwhelming strengths in another area.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Nice. I wonder how people think they’re not going to get caught out on blatant lies like this.

      It’s the reciprocal of the classic job posting asking for more years of experience with software than the software has actually existed.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        I assumed it was people who had been rejected by software for stating a truthful lower number, and there’s a lot of advice encouraging people to enter the higher number, even when it can’t be true, just to get past the filter.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Wow…like you said people are not paying attention or they just think back and don’t even remember it did not exist that long ago…

      Interesting!

    3. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I’ve always got the recruiter asking for 5 years experience in a technology that has 2 o 3, or heard about candidates faking at most a couple of years for junior positions, but I’ve never imagined that someone would fake 10! And to be a manager! Sure, this are desperate times, but that’s too much for me. Did you wrote the ad or had it proofed by someone who knows what the position is about? I’d have it checked, just in case.

      1. 867-5309*

        The ad just says candidates must have experience in the two programs – it doesn’t specify a specific length of time.

        1. 867-5309*

          And yes, I wrote the ad AND had two others look it over before publishing, including the current person in that role.

    4. Holey Moley*

      Hmm is the software similar to a different program? Like teapot painter vs teacup painter? Because I would be like yeah I got experience in this if I had 10 years with teacup painting and you are asking about teapot painting.

      1. 867-5309*

        No – it’s a wholly different and unique software so there is no confusing it with something else.

      2. Federal Middle Manager*

        I’m not sure I’d automatically reject. If you’d asked me how many years I’ve used Google Sheets, I’d probably say 20+ because that’s how long I’ve been using EXCEL and they so functionally similar. Could it be something like that?

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Is it possible they assume you mean $SpecificSoftware as well as $OutdatedCompetitor that it bought out and replaced?

      1. 867-5309*

        Nope – it was an entirely new launched software with it’s own name.

        I know folks are trying to figure out where the confusion is but trust me, the job description is clear (as it, it doesn’t articulate a minimum years requirement, just general experience) and the software is unlikely to be confused with another. :)

    6. Clementine*

      Rather than set up a no-win situation, why not have a free-form question where you ask the candidates to describe their experience with those programs, while providing dates of use?
      I’m sure this is different, but to give an example, I started using WordPerfect in 1984. I can’t remember when I started using Microsoft Word, and now I have moved to Google Docs. I don’t really have a clue how many years experience with MS Word I have. Word processing is not an official duty for me, but like most office workers, I have some proficiency in it.
      If you are asking people about a tool that does certain tasks, they might not distinguish them in their minds.

    7. allathian*

      Some pre-screen systems are very inflexible. If there are only options for 0, 5, 10 etc. then I wouldn’t reject those who put 5.
      Sounds like the question is one of those nasty ones where what you’re asking doesn’t match what your potential interviewees think you’re asking.
      Listing simple experience doesn’t always tell the truth, either. You can have used a particular program for ages, but if you only use it once a month or less, while someone else uses it daily, they’re going to be more proficient than you even if they have used it for a shorter time.
      I’m not particularly good with numbers and worse with dates. I’ve been using computers for studying and working for 30+ years, but I have no idea when I first started using Word or Excel… Or when I switched versions.

      1. 867-5309*

        1. The pre-screen question is open so people can enter any number of years.

        2. This isn’t a “nasty question.” We need experience in this software but occasionally a candidate’s other experience is so stellar that we could potentially overlook it.

  34. Lead not speaking up*

    I’ve been working on a project for another team for 7 months. 4.5 months ago another person on that team joined the project as the lead. We are the only 2 doing the same task. We get along. I like her. She’s easy to talk to. However she always asks me to speak up in meetings, report issues, ask questions. She doesn’t want to send emails or speak to the other members of the team as a whole. She will send emails or im people individually. But ask me to send group emails addressed to the whole project team or speak in the daily project meetings. I get that I’ve been on the project 3 monthsish longer but these are the people she works with far more closely than me.

    I think she’s worried about being ‘wrong’ and the quality of work isn’t great so I get the reluctance. But I’m not assigned to lead and I don’t want to take over and I get tired of being the spokesperson. I don’t like talking in meetings in general. On the other hand we are all working from hone and she has 2 kids so maybe she’s worried about the noise? Is this worth bringing up?

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Bringing up to who? Her? If so, then yes, say something if only to get clarity for yourself on what her issue is. As the lead, any group emails or verbal announcements should technically be coming from her, so you’re not wrong to feel weird about why she’s asking you to do it.

  35. rageismycaffeine*

    In yesterday’s full department Zoom meeting, a director made a really shitty joke about one of his employees “being on suicide watch” because she’s so busy. He sort of chuckled when he said it, then took a beat and said “well, it’s not funny, but…”

    I was furious. I’m STILL furious. I immediately told my supervisor how upset I was. He agreed, but I don’t know if it went any further than that. Nobody called the director out in the moment for making light of such a serious subject (ESPECIALLY in a time where it’s well-acknowledged that mental health is pretty fragile and important right now). For all I know his supervisor, our department head, has actually spoken to him about it, and I guess I should be fine with that, but there’s a part of me that wants to write a polite but firm email about not making jokes about something like suicide.

    I guess I’m not looking for advice or anything, just venting. People suck.

    1. Pine Sol Stew*

      Holy shit, that’s beyond tasteless.

      I don’t think it would be out of line for you to loop back to your supervisor and ask — gently, since there are levels of hierarchy involved here — if there’s a way to follow up on your concern from before, and make sure that it’s been expressed to the director that that’s a really horrible thing to joke about. Especially directly about another employee! It’d be bad enough if he’d made the joke about himself, but directing it toward another person is really appalling.

      Cause, wow. In your position, I’d want some kind of assurance that the company doesn’t consider coworkers committing suicide an okay thing to joke about.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        I am going to bring it back up again with my supervisor. It’s been 24 hours now so I can reasonably say that I have slept on it, thought about it, and am still upset. I’m also on very good terms with the head of our department, but as you noted, I’m trying to respect the hierarchy here. I doubt I’ll ever hear conclusively the results of this, but I would love to see it addressed somehow that we can’t be this callous.

        1. Pine Sol Stew*

          I’m glad you are, and the more I think about it, the more I think you might get mileage out of making this a company culture issue, rather than a “this guy” issue. Good luck!

    2. Blueberry*

      People are so often terrible. I’m so sorry. I wish I could encourage you to send him a blistering email.

    3. Kettricken Farseer*

      Sometimes people just say stupid shit, and it sounds like he immediately realized. However, I totally agree with your sentiment though, that suicide jokes are NEVER funny, and particularly not right now. My guess is that nobody called him out because he’s the director?

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Yeah, while I do think it was a slip and he did immediately recognize that it was not the brightest thing to say, I guess my sense of justice demands that he be spoken to. I think nobody called him out because there were 20 people on the call on varying places in the org chart – he’s above me on the org chart, but on a separate limb of the tree, so to speak.

        Honestly, in retrospect, I really wish I had said something. Just giving a death glare isn’t as effective on a Zoom call as it is in person.

    4. Diahann Carroll*

      People really do suck, especially when there have been stories all over the news in recent weeks of people killing themselves due to isolation. Dude needs serious sensitivity training.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Amen! It’s especially crappy because I – and a couple of other people – have spoken candidly in our team meetings about the need for looking out for our own mental health in this weird time. It’s not like he doesn’t know.

  36. Confused at Home*

    I recently rejected from a job in a very peculiar way (for me…in my opinion). I’m curious for those of you who are hiring managers on in HR if you can help me wrap my head around what this means for me with this company. And before you start typing…yes, yes…I should apply and let it go. I’m not looking for that feedback. I’m not necessarily dwelling on the missed opportunity as much as I’m confused as to why the hiring team was so deceptive and confusing with their messaging. Some context:

    I had a few rounds of interviews with a company that’s been high on my list for a while for what would have been a really great role. I received nothing but positive feedback during the process which I know means nothing really. I interviewed right as states were entering lockdown so I was told that they were working through their process given all the changes happening around us so “it’s not a no. It just might be a no for right now.” A few days later I receive an email from HR saying they were going with another candidate but would love to stay in touch for future roles. That I’d “be a great fit for other properties in the portfolio.” A few hours later I receive an email from the department head that I interviewed with thanking me for my time and letting me know that there would be a delay in next steps but please reach out if I have any questions. The department head’s email seemed to indicate I was still in the running so I asked to clarify my status and a few days later she replied back that they had in fact identified a potential candidate.

    Fast forward a few weeks and the position is still posted and the HR manager recently posted that they’re looking for candidates on her feed. I’m just curious why the conflicting messaging? Why not just close the door cleanly and say I’m not what they’re looking for? Also curious if it’s reasonable to reach back out to the department head directly to reopen the conversation? This role has been posted for almost a year. And if they truly are interested in keeping me engaged for other opportunities within the company…and clearly haven’t found the unicorn their looking for with this current role…does it hurt to propose we re-open the conversation?

    1. Schnoodle HR*

      Its weird. I’d have done it cleanly as you mention, just let you know you’re not a fit right now.

      I think the actions say that they don’t want you for THAT position, but they’d like to keep you in mind for something else maybe later. So to keep that bridge, I’d just tune out of what’s going on with the job you applied/interviewed and didn’t get.

    2. People Person's Paper People*

      In my experience many hiring managers do not like to be the ones to decline candidates. I would guess that the hiring manager was being deliberately vague about your status as a candidate because they were waiting for HR reach out with your official status update, and didn’t realize HR had already done so. Sounds like not the best internal communication going on there. It’s also very possible that what HR told you was true – you’re not the best fit for the project(s) they are hiring for right now, but you have valuable skills in other areas that might be applicable to other projects they hire for.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Something similar to that happened with my first post-college job. I graduated right before the 2008 recession when things were on a downward trend but not completely awful yet. I attended a job fair and spoke with a rep from the company and then submitted an official application a couple days later when the position we discussed actually posted. I had a phone interview scheduled and then received a rejection email the day before the scheduled interview. Well they still called and I was not prepared. When I explained my confusion the HR person I was talking to said there was a hiring freeze and those email went out to everyone with an active application. They had assumed that since I had a scheduled interview I would automatically know that it didn’t apply to me. We rescheduled the phone interview since I was at the grocery store when they called and that once again triggered a rejection email. I emailed the recruiter and they told me to just ignore anything from the system at this time and they will notify me personally of the status of things. Got the job but it was about a 3 month process between the job fair and my start date.

  37. (Hopefully) Job Changer*

    Does anyone have suggestions for how to get into foundation work as a program officer/program associate?

    Context: I got a lot of advice 10 years ago that foundations liked to see some private sector experience (in the same field), but now 8 years into working in the private sector it seems like that has changed and everyone wants to see field work instead. Does that mean I should be looking for a job in the field instead for a few years and then try foundations again? Am I just pitching my experience the wrong way? Working in program management for a foundation has always been my goal, so I’m hopeful that I can finally make that transition with this job search.

    1. New Senior Manager*

      You have 8 years of experience so go for it despite lack of field work. Play up any applicable transferable skills. Know that some foundations aren’t doing that great right now while others continue to soar. Research them thoroughly. Wishing you well,

  38. The Original K.*

    Feeling a bit frustrated by some bottlenecking going on right now – I can’t move forward on something until I get something from my boss. She knows I need it so I’ve resolved to take a deep breath & move on to other work. How do y’all handle bottlenecks?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Exactly like that. Sometimes I just take a break. I get really, really frustrated, but I also remind myself that… sometimes it happens.

      There are different levels of bottlenecks. The one I deal with most in this job is waiting for my boss to get back to me with something so I can wrap up a project, and honestly, that’s relatively minor in my world, mostly because it’s easy to directly point to what caused the delay. Another level is a bottleneck that kind of comes from me; if I’m really busy and something has to go down the priority hierarchy, then I usually communicate and tell whoever needs something from me that they will have it by X, just to keep them aware and manage expectations. Another level– the WORST– is when I’m waiting for something from a client and my project can’t proceed without it, yet they still want to hold us to a timeline. I once bugged a client almost daily for something critical to a project, they sent it two weeks late, and when I said that would affect the timeline of our deliverable they gave me MAJOR pushback and we ended up scrambling to keep them happy. That sucked.

      So I try to remember that the first level is ok, you have communication to cover your butt (I hate that I always go there, but I do), and you just have to keep breathing and carrying on.

      1. allathian*

        The third one is the worst, definitely. I’m just so lucky I don’t have to deal with external customers directly. If this happens often, there should ideally be something in the contract about penalizing the client if they’re late in providing something that’s essential to the final deliverable. Either the client needs to be flexible with the deadline or they’ll pay more. Of course, it rather depends on the type of deliverable whether that’s possible or not. If it’s easy to switch vendors, it wouldn’t work.

  39. New Senior Manager*

    Just received an offer for Senior Mgr of Learning and Development after 5 interviews. Whew! The Director mentioned they need a complete overhaul of their New Employee Onboarding and SME Troubleshooting Training (heart device). Any advice or best practices? Reading AAM definitely brought me this far. Thanks!

    1. SophieChotek*

      Congrats on the offer! It’s encouraging to know there is still hiring even at this time!

    2. Type 2*

      If you are not part of ATD, Association for Talent Development, please consider joining. It’s an industry org for all things training and development. Good luck!

    3. Diahann Carroll*

      No advice since that isn’t my field or function, but many congrats!

  40. LGC*

    Bit of an update from last week – I was a little stressed about taking the train to work because it didn’t feel responsible or that safe. I shouldn’t have worried that much, since it was pretty empty anyway. Getting to the office was a bit unpleasant, since I decided to bike from the terminal to my office (roughly two miles away)…in the rain. (Do not do this. I was appropriately social distanced for the bike commute. I was also drenched.)

    It’s starting to look like we might start ramping up again, though – and I might be back in the office in June (or even earlier; NJ hasn’t issued guidance, but I know upstate NY might start lifting restrictions May 15). So I have that to look forward to. I just need to get practiced at taking the train again and being careful out in public.

    1. Koala dreams*

      Bicycle in the rain is so bad, worse than walking in the rain. At the very least, you’ll need rain clothes with pants and jacket. I’ve seen people steer the bicycle with one hand and use umbrella in the other, but that’s too difficult for me. Good to hear the train was empty, at least.

  41. New Fed Here*

    Any tips to on how to make changes in a corporate culture where the job functions just don’t play nicely with each other?

    1. NW Mossy*

      In my experience, lack of playing nice tends to arise when there’s poor communication between the groups and they have limited understanding of what the other group does. In the absence of clarity, people start to write in their own story about why Team X always does that, and it’s rarely a flattering tale.

      What’s helped my organization a lot with this is a concept called “blame the process, not the people.” The idea is that when something goes wrong or isn’t flowing smoothly, we ask “how did the process allow for this to occur?” rather than “who’s at fault for this?” It disarms defensiveness on both sides and gets everyone focused on addressing the actual issue rather than pointing fingers. This analysis typically involves looking at a process from the starting point (“how do we know we need to Do A Thing?”) to the ending point (“how do we know The Thing Is Done?”) and identifying who’s involved and what they do.

      It’s gone a long way to opening everyone’s eyes to the ways in which our stuff is connected. I particularly saw a big change in someone I used to manage, who was always frustrated that she’d get requests she couldn’t move forward on. She used to blame the person immediately upstream from her, which made them annoyed because they didn’t control the inputs to the request – they were just the relay. With the new approach, she learned that it originated farther upstream and was able to have more effective conversations about fixing the process because she was directing questions to the right people.

  42. Constance Promise*

    I used to work in the same department as Dean, a brilliant man for taught me a lot. But as I’ve grown in my career, some of the things that he accomplished I know now were routine things that followed a set of rules. He wasn’t misrepresenting himself, I just learned more about how the sausage is made.

    I now have a role like Dean’s in a different department. To get certain things launched, we follow a very prescribed timeline and system of operations. Sometimes Dean’s department and mine have overlap and we need to work together to launch products.

    Recently, the person who works for Dean, my former role, has started to send emails about product launches that allude to Dean’s ability to get products pushed through. Statements like “I know someone who, if he says jump, they will jump.” and “I have an insider who can make things happen.”

    I am so annoyed by this! It’s because I know that Dean isn’t doing anything special to get his product launched, he’s following the rules we all follow. But it’s probably not worth saying anything to either of them right?

    2. Annony*

      You say that he doesn’t misrepresent himself, so I really don’t think any good comes from saying anything. Dean isn’t doing anything wrong and the person who works for him has a bit of hero worship going on. Even you say that dean is brilliant and taught you a lot.

      Of course, you don’t say who these emails are going out to. Statements like you cited could be seen as unprofessional. I wouldn’t want clients to feel like they need an “insider” to get something done at my company. So if you think the emails are making your company look bad, you could address that aspect of it.

    3. nep*

      Agree–leave it alone.
      I once had a colleague who was really creative (not at all deceptive) in how she presented herself and what she did. In the moments I put aside my inferiority complex, I saw how beautiful it really was and I admired her way.
      Know that I’m not at all saying this is similar to your experience–simply that I get what it’s like to see a colleague present normal, everyday tasks everyone does in a ‘dressed up,’ shall we say, way.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Definitely not. Consider that the person who’s sending these emails could have been you in your early days, looking at Dean as “someone who gets things done” without the context that he’s really just following process.

      I say that as someone who occasionally gets referred to as “the expert on X” and honestly they’re just referring to my ability to expertly Google things. It wouldn’t be a good idea to point out that all we’re doing is following process or Googling things, especially if the end result is still valuable.

  43. AnonForThis*

    I’ve read about information interviews and will re-read posts related to that topic here (later).
    A job posting that I am looking at says the person in the current position (leaving) is happy to talk to anyone about the job.
    Would you treat it as information interview (even knowing you would apply)?
    Treat it as a “real” interview, knowing if you made a bad impression on person-in-current role that could hurt your chances? (And for that reason, maybe not take up the offer?)

    What questions would you ask if you had this opportunity?

    Other thought/reactions? (I’ve never seen this on a job posting before.)

    1. Alex*

      Hmm…I think informational interviews fall into the category of wanting to leave a good impression anyway, even if you know that you are there just to get some information and that they likely don’t have a job for you. You never know, and leaving a bad impression after an informational interview is not a desirable outcome at all.

      I would definitely treat it as a “real” interview, meaning, a chance to a) make a good impression and b) ask questions to see if it would be a good fit for you. I’m not sure why that would mean you wouldn’t take up the offer for this opportunity, as it could be extremely valuable. And not taking that opportunity to talk to the person in the current role would honestly look really odd–and like you weren’t all that interested in the job.

    2. SophieChotek*

      I would agree.
      Read the job description closely and prepare as you would for a “real” interview.
      This is a great opportunity to get some extra insight into the job.

    3. Annony*

      It is more like a “real” interview since it is about a specific job rather than the field in general. I would ask about hours, how often is overtime required. Do they ever need to go in on weekends? What is a typical day like? It there are parts of the job description that you particularly like or don’t like, I would ask what percentage of time those tasks take up.

  44. Alex*

    Although I really love working from home, I’m finding I HATE the kinds of things that contribute to having warm (working, professional) relationships with my coworkers. Meaning, I hate social gatherings on Zoom, I hate mundane Slack chit chat, and I even hate all the extra “warm” greetings that everyone is putting in emails nowadays. I just don’t have the patience for this, none of it feels authentic to me, and I’m afraid I’m going to become known as the office jerk, rather than how I was previously known, as a really nice, warm person, with great professional relationships that helped me do my best work. I am that person in person! I am not that person via email, on Zoom, or on Slack.

    I realized that as this goes on, that might be a problem–people’s impression of me will fade with time, and also we will probably have new employees I won’t ever meet. Our office is anticipating probably not going back to full in-office mode…ever. Which is fine with me! I am very happy to be remote, I’m just worried about what it will do to my reputation.

      1. Alex*

        It was authentic! But it felt natural, and the environments for interactions over Zoom or Slack don’t feel as natural, especially with people I don’t know that well. I do much better in person, even if I don’t actually like commuting to work and sitting in a cube all day (hate that! hate it! so glad I am not doing it at the moment!). And my emails have always just been kind of dry and to the point, but softened by the fact that people already know me. I joke around a TON in person, but rarely over email, for example.

    2. Anon for this*

      Yeah, you’re going to have to adapt to your (new) office culture. Your office mates find it “authentic.” It is a way for 100% remote offices to remain warm, friendly, and in-touch. This is how it’s done!

    3. INeedANap*

      Can you dig into why it feels inauthentic? Is it due to not being able to hear someone’s tone of voice on email? The weird “doppelganger” effect of Zoom where everything feels a bit off? Do you hate mundane chit-chat in person as well as over Slack?

      I do think that, without face-to-face interactions, someone who doesn’t engage in at least a little “warmth-building” is going to get a reputation as cool. Jerks are actively jerk-y and I don’t get that impression from you at all, but I do get the sense that keep a professionally warm relationship is something that might suffer.

      1. Alex*

        Now that I think about it some more, I think it is more that I rely on random, one-on-one interactions to build relationships. Things like running into each other in the break room, or what have you. I drink so much tea that eventually I’ve chatted up everyone! It is the group nature of the social Zooms and all-staff Slack chats that I really don’t like–and I actually don’t like those kinds of things in person, either! But now there is no opportunity to randomly talk to someone for no reason whom you don’t already know well, other than the established group socializing events…which I’m not comfortable in in person or online. It feels totally weird to Slack someone and talk to them in the way you would if you were both standing around waiting for the kettle to boil.

        1. allathian*

          I hear you, I really hear you.
          I’m a chatty introvert, so I find big meetings either in person or online very draining. I really enjoy even small talk with a few people.

    4. Annony*

      I don’t think you need to be “warm” in all forms of communication, but you do need to be in at least some or you will be perceived as aloof. Maybe focus on one form of communication and try to get used to it so it doesn’t feel as fake. I would probably pick zoom since it is the closest to in person interaction. You can get your friends and family to help you practice so that it feels more natural.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve got some people who reply to an email or IM by asking to call. Not zoom. Just a phone call. No video. Might be worht a try.

    6. Pommette!*

      I mostly do remote work, and agree with you completely.
      I genuinely care about my colleagues, as people. I know how to express this in person (mostly – I’m a pretty awkward person at the best of times). But every way of expressing that remotely feels profoundly dishonest, and instrumental. I don’t know how to build new relationships online.

    7. RagingADHD*

      I also enjoy a bit of breakroom chitchat, and always had pleasant connections with most of my coworkers when I was office based. But scheduled work socializing feels awkward & performative to me, whether they’re on Zoom or IRL.

      It’s the difference between “Hey, are you going out for lunch?” vs the office Christmas party.

      Also, I don’t normally socialize with coworkers in my house. If I were going to invite the whole team over for drinks, it would be A Thing, with Expectations. We wouldn’t be hanging out in my home office.

      It’s not horrible, we’ll all get used to it. But I completely agree, it’s not fun & I’ve been avoiding stuff because I just don’t enjoy it at all.

    8. Aly_b*

      If you ever have opportunities for a one on one phone or IM follow-up about something, that can be a good chance to have those brief interactions that might feel more genuine than in a group setting or an email. Something like spending a couple of minutes at the start of a call commiserating about how much you both miss going to wherever gets you a lot of “warm” person mileage, that I think covers for a lot of more brusque / efficient emails since it is a more direct connection with that individual person.

  45. Unicornucopia*

    I’m a high school senior going to college in the fall, and all year it’s been my plan to get a job over the summer. However, given the current state of things, I’m not sure that this will be possible. I have zero job experience because my previous summers have been fuller and I did more volunteering and the school I’ve gone to prohibits having a job during the school year (like I could be expelled for having one, and the workload is such that it would be incredibly difficult anyway). I’d been looking for jobs to apply to before all this happened, and had a list of applications, but these were mostly summer camps that have now been canceled and other non-essential businesses. I’m not trying to pay for my own tuition with a job or anything, and I wouldn’t be in dire straights if I don’t have one, so do I keep looking for a job? I have elderly grandparents that live with us, and so working in a grocery store or place with a lot of risk to virus exposure isn’t really an option right now, but there aren’t exactly a lot of work-from-home jobs for high schoolers out there. Is it even ethical for me to be looking for a job if things open up at some point this summer when so many others will need it more? I live in a city based on tourism, so there are lots of people out of work right now as we’ve been especially hard hit. Also with so many looking for jobs who likely have much more job experience than I do, it feels unlikely that an employer would go with me over them. Anyway if anyone has any thoughts on this, that would be appreciated. Thank you!

    1. Colette*

      My thoughts:
      – you’re right, it’ll be hard to get a job you can do from home
      – it’s ok to try to get a job even if others could use it more than you
      – what about something outdoors (yard work, etc.)? Seasonal jobs, with not much exposure to people

    2. SophieChotek*

      You ask some really thoughtful questions (ethical, etc.) At least to me, I think that’s shows real maturity.

      Like you said, there probably isn’t a lot of WFH options for people just starting out, but that might be one option

      Also, depending on your major/background, I wonder if there is any WFH volunteering you could do, to continue to support your resume/experiences? (Of course, people looking for work may also need that experience, and hopefully no non-profit would take your volunteer as an excuse not to rehire/lay off someone else!)

      Also (you may not want to think about more classes!) but there are so many free classes out there at the moment, if nothing else, perhaps even something like that

      Good employers will understand if you don’t have a job on your resume this year after graduating/right away,

      Good Luck!

    3. No Name Yet*

      One question is: what are your goals for working? Money? Office experience? Being productive? Feeling that you should for a vague-but-important reason?

      I suspect you are correct in the ways that it will likely be difficult/more complex then expected. You mentioned summer camp, are you interested in working with kids?
      My thought is 100% coming from my situation as a family with two working parents – but we’re thinking if teleworking stops but camps aren’t open, we may look into hiring someone watch our kid in the house. (That may not be of interest, or feel feasible with your grandparents, but figured I’d bring it up since I suspect lots of working parents will be in our situation this summer.)

    4. Annony*

      You should talk to your parents about this. Since your grandparents live with you it may be better to not look for a job right now. Any job that isn’t work from home is going to increase the risk to your grandparents. Since you don’t need a job it may not be worth it right now. This does depend on location though. If you were somewhere like NYC, the risk is far greater than if you live somewhere with few cases.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        All of this. If you don’t need the money, table the job search until you get to college. High school job’s just won’t make that big of a difference when you graduate from college – your college jobs/internships will take precedence.

    5. EndlessFiling*

      My little brother is in the exact same situation, a high school senior about to enter college and was planning on getting a job this summer. We are just having him wait. It would be nice to have this experience before college, but you will have plenty of opportunities during your college career to get a job and work experience is usually not necessary for college admittance unless you are aiming for a scholarship with that requirement. Especially if the job is not needed for your finances, I would try not to stress so much about it. It’s not unusual for someone to get their first job in/after college.

    6. UK gal*

      Perhaps you could look at tutoring younger students over the Internet? You could make it fun with games and activities, like a summer school class. With everything going on lots of parents are going to have struggled with helping their kids with schoolwork. Maths seems to be a big one that parents are struggling to help their kids with, but I am sure multiple things would be of interest, like poetry or art. You could try asking around and see if people locally would be interested.

  46. SophieChotek*

    Salaried query
    My understanding is for salaried positions (ideally)
    You work your hours
    But if you need to take off for an appointment
    Or maybe finish your work early for the day
    You might just take off
    And unlike hourly-paid, that’s (generally) okay
    (Depending on the culture of the office)

    How do you deal with this during WFH?
    OTOH, I can always find something to do
    OTOH, my big projects/must-be-done are sometimes done early
    And I still feel like pandemic has messed with my ability to concentrate
    But I don’t want to take advantage of the situation either…

    How do you handle this? I feel guilty working less than 40 hours, but….

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I took off today for an hour to go grocery shopping. I made good progress during the week, had an early start this morning, and have no guilt.

      The feeling guilty for less than 40 hours a week is hard to shake. You could look at it from other perspectives:
      * did you get more than enough done so that nobody else is stuck waiting for your outputs?
      * do you rigorously account for your “off-time” when you’re in the office? conversations around the coffee pot, 5 minutes here and there browsing the web, etc? You might be comparing apples to oranges.
      * did you get a comparable amount done during WFH as you would at the office?

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thanks; I do tend to try to be pretty “honest” about my 5-10 minutes here or there chatting with co-workers, the time I took to answer a personal email that I totally forgot about that became urgent…

        Also my work is pretty independent of others, so I rarely have anyone waiting on me

        I always get that done right away/by deadline
        But always have those “back-burner” projects, some going back years…

        Thanks!

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      In my office, what’s important is that we communicate with our managers (and for those of us who ARE managers, with our reports) about when we will be unavailable. I have had reports send me Slack messages to say, “hey, I just finished my work on X project, and since it’s 3:30 and I’m kind of fried now, I’m going to log off if that’s OK.” I assure them it’s fine. Or someone might tell me, “I’m going to be starting late tomorrow because I need to hit the grocery store first thing in the morning,” and that’s fine too. We make communicating about absence or early leaving/late arrivals really easy, because we have Slack, where it’s easy to see if someone is marked as available or not, and we have a shared Outlook calendar for our team so we can see if someone is out (I just put a couple appointments on there for myself, for later this month, and will likely remind my manager and reports about them as they get closer).

    3. ThatGirl*

      For me, my computer is on/I’m generally available from 7:30 to 4, but I don’t feel guilty about putting it aside to eat lunch, or walk the dog, or clean something, or if I had an errand to run I’d do that. My focus was never 100% on work for 8 hours a day in the office; there was time to enjoy some cake in the breakroom, or chat with a coworker, or just take a walk around the floor to stretch my legs and get coffee. I figure if my work is getting done and I’m responding to emails and IMs in a timely fashion, it’s all good.

    4. Lyudie*

      You are still allowed to take time for yourself and with everything going on, you really should. You’re probably under more stress than you realize and having a three-day weekend or whatever can help ease that. I took a mental health day a couple of weeks ago, just gave my manager a few days heads-up with the request and it was not a problem. It sounds like one day is not going to impact your getting things done, so do it!

    5. Alex*

      I’ve just stopped paying attention to the time, except to make sure I attend scheduled meetings. I just work until I don’t. I’m responsible for prioritizing “time off” vs. “this needs to be done”.

      As long as you aren’t sloughing off work to others, missing deadlines, or turning in low quality work because you wanted to watch Judge Judy all afternoon, I’d say…who cares how many hours you work?

  47. Youth*

    I’m supposed to write a doc that explains why I’m good at my job, what I’m not as good at but am working to improve, and why I deserve a promotion.

    Anyone else ever had to do something like this?

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      All of those except “why I deserve a promotion” are normal.

      Does your employer have regular quarterly or annual review cycles? Are there clear and obvious career tracks – titles, responsibilities, etc.?

      If not, your employer might be winging it. If it’s a small/new firm, that’s understandable. But an established organization ought to have a regular system for this kind of thing.

    4. Youth*

      Sorry, this isn’t a “is this normal?” question. It’s a “how do I go about this?” question.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Something for the future: I keep a word document that I update each Friday with accomplishments and things learned for the week. I’m always shocked looking back at how much I’ve accomplished.

        What you’re good at: list 2-3 adjectives and then some examples that show that. For example “good attention to detail” “sorted the Filing Drawer That Shall Not Be Named”

        What you’re not: list 2-3 challenges you faced this year, what steps you took to succeed, and (most importantly) what help you could use from work. “Had a huge uptick in customer facing work. Sent summary emails after each meeting for clarification. Would love to take some negotiation training”

        Why you deserve a promotion: list any financial contributions you’ve made “came up with idea that saved company $x” “regularly beat metric for reqd number of tickets”. But also, see, what you are good at. You can also use this as an opportunity to talk about added responsibility or growth desires. This year I requested to supervise the interns (back when we were going to get some).

    5. Timekeeper*

      Not only did I have to write a document, I had to conduct a one hour presentation for our group’s director, vice president and 3 senior project managers which covered my accomplishments for the past 2 years. My boss told me I nailed the presentation and follow up meeting on the manufacturing line I designed and validated (medical device).

      I got the promotion, but it was extremely stressful.

  48. Not a Girl Boss*

    Anyone else feeling caught between depression-fueled rage quitting fantasies, and the desire to be the best employee ever?

    I’m currently working The Project From Hell. It is not my skill set, I don’t really see the value, it relies on people who won’t give me the time of day. But without access to our site, its suddenly become 100% of my job.
    I spend half of my days avoiding work, feeling really depressed about how hopeless and meaningless it all is.
    And then like an hour before quitting time I get all “But what if I put in all the effort, really made a huge push, there’s like a 10% chance this could be great.” Then I lie awake at night feeling guilty for not trying harder.

    1. gee willikers*

      I have BEEN THERE. I have no useful advice, unfortunately. :( I escaped from my own Hell Project only because it was cancelled due to COVID-related issues. But you have all my empathy, and I hope you also get out of it soon.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Thank you. Haha glad SOMETHING good came out of COVID.

        Actually, 2 good things, I just got an email saying my HSA could now be used for feminine hygiene products as a result of the Coronavirus healthcare act thingie. Bless whoever snuck that little line item in there.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Yes, but it’s more like I really want my current project to succeed, but –
      Right now I’ve just been reassigned to The Worst manager for both my project and for me personally/career-wise, but –
      I immediately made a strong case to my senior manager (as did my current manager who knows this is bad news) and he was open to the feedback and my request to be assigned to The Best manager, but –
      That decision is still pending and may take a while to go into effect, and –
      Now my company is looking at layoffs, but –
      My specific skills are considered mission critical, but –
      The people who get to put names in for layoffs (not my management) don’t like me for reasons not related to my performance, personality, or anything substantive (except possibly gender?), but –
      It’s possible my management *could* find a way to protect me and I appreciate that they seem to have my back but if things get any more bleak who knows, and so –
      I might be putting in an awful lot of work to make this project a success and still be laid off this summer.

      I’m still able to be productive during the workdays, but I have now lost sleep over this roller coaster and am 90% sure it was the cause of my migraine earlier this week.

  49. A Jessica*

    Sometimes in the background of our video calls one of coworkers has a cross hanging on the wall in one corner. He mentioned one time his husband is a minister so it isn’t surprising for him to have religious stuff in the house but would it be offside for me to either speak to our boss or ask him myself not to show it because of my (and potentially others) discomfort with religion and christianity? I get an uncomfortable feeling every time we see it. Our work doesn’t have anything to do with religion or churches so it is jarring to see. Thank you to anyone who replies. Have a good day.

    1. Colette*

      I vote no. It’s his house; as long as it’s a passive decoration and he’s not talking about religion, you don’t get a vote about what’s on the walls (with specific exceptions – a nazi flag would be something to object to.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. And I say this as somebody who doesn’t care for organized religion either.

    2. SophieChotek*

      Personally, because this is the person’s home, I’d be inclined to let it go.
      (Presumably, you’d ask anyone to take down any religious iconography – a Star of David, a Pentagram, etc.)

      If it was their office cubicle at work that would be different. (Though even then, I think there have been some letters/discussions about how much “personality”/”Private stuff” can/should be allowed in an office/office cubicle.)

      But others may have a different take on this!

      1. Clisby*

        I don’t see why a Star of David or a Pentagram would be any different from a cross.

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      Speaking as someone who is also not religious and gets the discomfort: I really don’t think you should say anything. Nor should you if someone had religious paraphernalia in their office at work. That’s a personal expression and as long as they’re not actively proselytizing to you you’re going to have to let it go. IMO this is especially true when people are working from home and what you’re seeing are items they have in their home, not in the workplace. This is just part of working with other people with different belief systems from yours.

      please note that I work in the American South where there is way more religion present in everyday life than perhaps might be in other geographical regions, so my view may be colored by that.

      1. A Jessica*

        Thank you. I also live in a place where my faith (Jewish) not the majority. I’m openly observant in my professional and personal life as a minority but it is difficult at times. I didn’t realize he was christian until he mentioned where his husband works during one of our calls when we were talking about the newness of working from home but now that I’ve seen the cross it feels like it is at the forefront all the time and that’s where the discomfort is coming from.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          I can understand that, being Pagan. One very soft thing you might try that doesn’t actually ask him to remove or hide the cross (which, as others have said, would not be good to do) is to start using really fun and interesting virtual backgrounds on your video chats, and encouraging others to start doing the same. If he decides to put up a background of, say, a Hawaiian beach or something, it’ll hide anything in the real background. It might not work, but it might, and if it does, it’ll give you a little ease while not infringing on your coworker at all.

        2. Bluebell*

          A Jessica, while you might not want to strategically move your Judaica, would it make you feel better to wear a chai or Star of David on Zoom calls? Just a thought. I can empathize being a religious minority, but after 30 years in different workplaces, I’ve chilled out about lots of faith based stuff.

        3. AvonLady Barksdale*

          So… it’s ok for you to be observant but not for him because his religion is not a minority one? As I mentioned in my comments below, I’m Jewish. I lived for many years in a place where being Jewish was certainly not common. I got some weird responses and looks from people who saw the Star of David I always wore, so it’s not like I don’t get the challenge, but the solution to not being treated differently because of your religion is NOT to treat someone else differently because of their different religion.

          Suggesting that someone take down a religious symbol in his own home bothers me. That suggestion coming from an observant person actually offends me, and I don’t get offended my much.

          1. pink floyd*

            I agree with you AvonLady Barksdale. There is nothing wrong with anyone’s religious observance (unless they are pushing it on to others of course). But A Jessica has been ‘openly observant’ at work, meanwhile she didn’t even know he was religious at all until he made an offhand, one off comment about his husband when they had began working from home. It’s a double standard if there ever was one.

            1. Annony*

              I agree. If you ask him to hid any sign of his faith, you need to do the same.

          2. Youth*

            As a highly religious person, I am also flabbergasted by this double standard. I am a Christian (though racially, I am part Jewish). I would be 100% fine with colleagues openly practicing Judaism or Islam in my presence. I’m also fine with people being pagan or atheist or agnostic or whatever. I want to support people in their beliefs, just like I would hope they’d support me in mine.

        4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Ask yourself if you would you have the same reaction if you were both working in the office, and he wore a cross necklace or lapel pin. If not, then I suggest that your discomfort might stem more from the artificial aspects of the teleconference & the stress of the whole work-from-home thing.

          Just something to consider.

        5. Alice*

          It sounds like the feeling that his Christianity is at the forefront all the time is *your* feeling, and I hope that you can reframe it. I imagine you want people at work to think of you as a talented colleague who happens to be Jewish, not as a Jewish colleague who happens to be talented. If you saw a child in the corner of video calls, would you think that his status as a parent was at the forefront all the time?

        6. allathian*

          Frankly, you don’t have a leg to stand on. It’s his home. He’s not bringing religion to the workplace normally, since you say you didn’t even know he was Christian until you saw the cross. (And there’s no way to know how observant he is, even if he’s married to a minister.) I mean, my answer would be different if he had a swastika on his wall, or pornographic images.

          What does being observant in your professional life mean to you? I assume you keep kosher, but does it mean that you try to schedule your vacation around Jewish holidays? Does it restrict the way you dress (the no mixed fibers thing makes it harder to dress professionally)? Or do you refuse to shake hands with a person who presents as a member of the opposite sex? (I’d be perfectly happy if I never had to shake anyone’s hand ever again thanks to COVID.) I hope that I’m not coming across as judgemental here, I’m just curious.

    4. Schnoodle HR*

      Like others, I’d say no. It’s his house, he’s not starting each meeting with a prayer, etc.

      I see it as someone wearing a cross necklace.

      I’m not christian and I don’t really have anything positive to say about the faith, but this wouldn’t bother me.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Absolutely do not ask anyone to speak to him and ask him to take it down. I have “religious” pieces in my house too, and if someone told me they were offended by my prayer books and my menorah and my mezuzah, I would be so bothered by that– and I would 100% feel unsafe. It’s his home. This is my home. I’m Jewish. I’m gonna have Jewish stuff around. His cross is in a corner, he’s not waving it in your Zoom meeting yelling at you to repent. If you have a poster in your home saying that atheism is the only way, and it’s visible on your webcam, you wouldn’t want someone to ask you to take it down, would you? Simply having a cross in his home is not being Christian at you. It’s his home. I want to say this 1000 times: it’s his home.

      Do you feel the same way about people wearing cross or Star of David necklaces? On their own person?

    7. AnnieMay*

      I think you’re being a bit extra about this. He isn’t preaching he didn’t bring it into work. This is just his home, existing how he lives, where he’s now stuck doing work.

    8. Youth*

      He lives there. I know this is an odd time, but it’s not that different from going to his house for a casual visit and asking him to remove it while you’re there. Either would be a major overstep.

      That goes both ways, of course. If you have a needlepoint on your walls that says, “There is no God,” he shouldn’t ask you to take it down or hide it. If your house is a festering pigsty with unmade beds and dirty dishes everywhere, even if that makes him uncomfortable, he can’t ask you to tidy things up for video calls.

      If your video call app has virtual backgrounds, you could introduce your team to them. Maybe he’ll start using one. That’s as far as you can go, though.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Indeed! I get very annoyed by my co-worker’s super messy bookshelf and unmade bed during company-wide video calls. So I vent to my partner when we hang up. I would never, in a million years, think it was ok to comment to someone about the state of their home– unless it’s, like, “Oh, what a beautiful view” or “I love that wall color.” Not all opinions are necessary to express, which I say to my mother on a regular basis.

    9. Blueberry*

      I hear you. I have bad personal history with Christianity. But I agree with everyone else that it would be an overstep to ask him to take it down.

      Also, I hope this thought helps: Your coworker is a man married to another man. Considering the overlap between Christianity and homophobia, if he and his husband have navigated that, then the odds are more likely that they won’t be obstreperous about their faith, right? At least, I very much hope so.

      All good luck and you have a good day, too. Here’s hoping it can unsettle you less as time goes by (and I say this with all sympathy as someone who would be unsettled as well).

    10. Bluebell*

      I’d also vote no. Depending on where I have my laptop set up in my house, someone might see a mezuzah, a print of Jerusalem, or our ketubah (Jewish wedding contract). And I’d be annoyed if someone complained to HR. Decor in people’s house is really up to them. Perhaps I might change my mind if it was a huge banner saying something like “all non-Christians are going to hell” but just a cross is pretty low key.

      1. Susie Q*

        This! You can see my ketubah in my background. If someone complained, I would be majorly rolling my eyes. But most people don’t know what it is.

    11. A Jessica*

      That should read, my discomfort with *his* religion and christianity. I am of a different faith so I’m not inherently uncomfortable with religion. Apologies for any confusion.

      1. Fulana del Tal*

        So someone is allowed to wear a Star a David, hijab or pentagram but a cross is somehow warrants a talk to managers? You have a problem with displays of Christianity, don’t make it a coworkers thing. If you wouldn’t someone else to hide their religion or wouldn’t appreciate someone telling you to hide yours, don’t say anything to the christian.

      2. Curiouser and Curiouser*

        Would it be appropriate for him to ask you to remove Jewish symbols from your home or to take off a Star of David necklace? I am uncomfortable at times by overt religion, but this sounds no different from your own outward observance of your faith.

      3. Leah K.*

        Oh, so your issue is not just religion, it’s “his” religion specifically? That just made it so much worse. At first I thought you were just a bit precious because you din’t want to see a religious symbol in a work context without realizing that said religious symbol is literally just a decoration in this man’s house (similar to a cross necklace worn to the office). But you actually have a problem with this man’s specific religion. So, you’re not precious. You are a bigot.

      4. leapingLemur*

        Maybe A Jessica is uncomfortable because of things that have happened in history or because of their own experience with Christians? There are some people who call themselves Christians who really embarrass the rest of us. Christianity is supposed to be about love and kindness, not persecution.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That does not matter one iota in this situation. If someone bothered her in the past and happened to be Christian, she is not entitled to then erase all Christians from her vision. Just like I expect not to be vilified if another Jewish person did something egregious to someone else and the only connection between us is that we’re Jewish. That’s a really, really terrible slippery slope right there.

          I am not arguing that A Jessica might have had some bad experiences with Christian people in the past, because I don’t know her. But that does not give her or anyone else the right to dictate what religious pieces a person can or cannot have in his home. She didn’t even know he was Christian until she saw a simple symbol!

          There is simply no justification for telling a religious person to remove something from their home because its simple presence offends a person for reasons I can’t even wrap my head around. Coming from an observant person? Good grief, that’s ridiculous.

          1. leapingLemur*

            I agree that it’s not a justification for telling a religious person to remove something from their home. I was just trying to understand where Jessica might be coming form. I’m Christian, for what it’s worth.

            1. Fulana del Tal*

              It’s not about Christianity, it’s the hypocrisy of she being allowed to observe her own religion but others not because it’s makes her uncomfortable. Avonlady is right it’s a slippery slope.

    12. pink floyd*

      By your own admission you are openly observant with your religion at work.

      By your own admission you didn’t even know he was religious until you all started working from you saw the cross and he once mentioned his husband being a Minister.

      I’m guessing he hasn’t complained about your observance or you surely would have mentioned that. You have no standing to say a word about him. You are holding him to a double standard which is unfair and wrong. How would you feel if someone said that you were making them uncomfortable?

    13. alexis*

      It’s his house, leave it alone. You normally don’t see peoples kids or pets or spouses or kitchens or dining tables at work either, there’s a lot we are just all ignoring since we’re working in such a strange setting.

    14. Coverage Associate*

      I am so annoyed at the world for suddenly making my home a workplace without any compensation, cash or in-kind. (No relaxation of home office deductions for taxes, no stipend for hardware or lap desks, etc.) I would be extra annoyed if I were asked to change my decor.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        That’s an interesting point about the home office deduction. Under prior IRS rules (greatly simplified), you had to have a dedicated space only used for work, and not have another office. Seems as though they ought to reconsider the guidelines for the 2020 filing year. So many of us do NOT have anywhere else to work, at least for a couple of months, that it would seem reasonable to allow a pro rata deduction for the portion of the year we are locked down.

    15. Oxford Comma*

      If this was in his office, it would be one thing. Maybe even if this was normal working from home, you could say something. It’s not though. Many people have limited space and setups. I have friends who are trying to do work in their kids’ bedrooms and people who are stuck in a tiny corner in the kitchen. My suggestion would be to do the best you can to ignore it.

    16. ...*

      Really its that “jarring” to see a cross in the background of someone else’s house? I would let it go. It is his home and crosses are a pretty typical decoration. I’m not Christian or even a supporter of it either it just seems like something so common that it would be really odd to ask someone to change it.

    17. RagingADHD*

      If you did manage to prevail on your manager or HR to try to make him take it down (which I hope they would have the good sense not to), then the company would be open to liability for religious discrimination. Particularly since it is extremely targeted against one specific religion.

      Might be a good case, might not. But the last thing any employer needs right now is more liability for anything.

    18. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      If “his husband” is fine, so is a cross. Or any other religious symbol.

  50. New manager*

    I started a little over a month ago as a manager at a new company, mostly remote. I’m probably psyching myself out a bit here, especially because of the remote part, but I have a few questions.

    1) The thing I hated most was being micro managed. Their previous manager told me that both of my direct reports need a lot of management
    /hand holding basically. Lately I’ve been doing something that I would not like to be done to me – we have a time sensitive project and have had brief “where are you now” check ins 1-2 times a day. However, they seem to like it and are happy to discuss even more than I want to, so it seems to be working – should I let my fear of micromanaging go?

    2) I was hired to take some work off my boss’ plate. For the first few weeks I was afraid that she was going to be possessive about the work, she’s the one who built it from the ground up etc, but she’s slowly letting go – anything to worry about here?

    3) Sillier question – should I dress up over Zoom? I couldn’t care less what anyone is wearing, and everyone is in tshirts and sweatshirts, but I am the young new female manager with direct reports older than her, and normally in the office I would try to dress up at least a little

    I know this place is wary of young managers and new managers, but I really do have top notch credentials and experience for this role, the company is growing, and I do feel like people (my direct reports and others at my level / slightly below me ) respect and accept me and listen to me. It’s a fairly small place so I was a bit worried they would see me as an interloper.

    1. Blueberry*

      I would dress up if I were you, at least from the waist up. I wish I could tell you to stay relaxed with everyone else, but I think it may help you build capital and hold onto respect to project that more businesslike image.

      All good luck and learning as you continue becoming a great manager! (FWIW, I appreciate my daily check-ins with my boss, especially while WFH. I feel they help keep me attuned to what he needs from me.)

      1. New manager*

        Thank you! The person who especially likes the check ins also told me he likes coming to the office and not working from home, and lives with random roommates he isn’t friends with (it’s a very friendly office). So that may be part of it too.

      2. foolofgrace*

        There was a story on the news — and they had video so it was true — of a remote worker on a call wearing a shirt and tie, not realizing that the video feed captured the fact that he wasn’t wearing any pants. Oops!

    2. Alianora*

      Not a manager, but it sounds like things are going well and there are no actual conflicts, just ones that you anticipated that haven’t happened.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I would dress neatly and professionally — so not full on business suit but a top or shirt one step up from a t-shirt, clean and neat hair, and if you present as female, small jewelry (and depending on your complexion) a little bit of make up if you need that to look put together on camera. For some reason, the cameras are EXCELLENT at picking up my blotchy complexion, so I have to put on a little foundation + lipstick + mascara just so I look like a person.

      1. New manager*

        Yeah someone on a call today was wearing a plain shirt but large-r earrings and lipstick and it looked pretty good over camera- may go down that route. I’ve eased up on the dressing up but sounds like I should go back to doing that.

      2. Black Horse Dancing*

        Why jewelry if you present as female? Why note clean clothes, neat attire, hair clean and presentable?

        2. Koala dreams*

          Yes, there is jewelry for men too! And some jewelry is gender neutral, even. I would say: put on some jewelry if you are a jewelry person (of any gender). With some tasteful jewelry, you can feel extra festive. If it’s not your thing, just skip the jewelry.

          1. allathian*

            Definitely not my thing. I even quit wearing my wedding ring years ago, because I have very sensitive skin and just can’t deal with having something there all the time. Still feel as married as I ever did with the ring!

    4. Purple Jello*

      1) Some people like frequent checking, especially with a new manager. If you feel it’s too frequent, try dropping down to once a day, or even less, and see how it goes.

      2) nope, she probably didn’t want to overwhelm you. As long as she continues to offload more work to you, I wouldn’t worry. Maybe check in with her about it?

      3) I suggest you dress one step up from them on most days. Same thing once you go into the office. Attire does affect people’s Perception of you. In my business casual office, I only dressed casual on Fridays, and still not as casual as many other people

    5. Marthooh*

      I can’t speak to the first two questions, but for #3: keep your hair tidy and wear some ersion of what other managers wear.

      1. Marthooh*

        Or if all your ersions are at the cleaners, wear a version of what other managers wear.

    6. Mockingjay*

      In your mind, try to reframe micromanagement as “structure” or “support.”

      There’s a difference between quickly checking that your staff is getting what they need to meet a tight deadline, and questioning every aspect of their role. You can ease off the check-ins when the project is finished.

      I think you are doing incredibly well starting a new role in difficult circumstances. Your staff likes you. Your boss is doing exactly what was promised, diverting work to you. These are signs of confidence in you.

  51. Kimmybear*

    Redefining my job: Due to budget constraints, changes in leadership, and organizational politics, the part of my job that I love (but is way more work than one person can do) is going to a different department and I’m being left with the part of my job that I do because I’m one of the few in the department than can do it. BUT because by supervisor is awesome, we are using this as an opportunity to redefine my role and responsibilities. To others that have done this, where did you start? I’m thinking of starting with the departmental/organizational needs because in this climate every penny needs to be justified. At the same time I want to balance what I want to do and how I want to grow. Any suggestions?

    1. Kiitemso*

      Hey late reply but hope you still see this. I did this in the beginning of 2019. They took 60% of my role and hired another person due to some location changes and expanded my existing duties and I took on a lot of things that were new to me. Me and my boss basically hashed out some things I already did in the office and made sure I would take even more responsibility on them, and asked around if anybody had a task I could take on, or help with, and then I got cross-trained to a few things. I also became the person responsible for communicating with a few outside entities (people we buy supplies and services from) and to keep them in the loop whenever needed. I’m like the unofficial office manager.

      I basically became the in-house expert for everything to do with our new head office as well as an available helper for various things that needed doing on a deadline. It’s been rewarding thus far and I’ve been very adaptable to change, when stuff neeeds doing I can do it, when something changes I can say goodbye to an old task and pick up a new one.

    2. Flyleaf*

      Regardless of the good intentions of your supervisor, it might not work out. My suggestion is to start looking for a new job. No hurry, but be constantly looking around, networking, applying. If your supervisor pulls it off, you will be fine, but if not you should have other options.

  52. Figgie*

    My spouse is planning to retire the first of November. He has reason to believe that his workplace will want to keep him (big conversion project that they will be in the middle of), but we have rented a place in Mexico and will be there by the middle of November and they have already said that he can’t work from Mexico.

    So, they will most likely offer to hire him as a contract employee. We will have health insurance (Medicare), but if he does decide to accept being a contract employee, how do we figure out what is the appropriate amount to ask per hour?

    I know that we have to pay both halves of Social Security and Medicare and estimated taxes, right?

    Is this a huge hassle? Because if it is, I would rather have him just retire, but he feels guilty about leaving in the middle of the project, a large part of which is his area of expertise.

    So, any information about how this all works would be much appreciated!

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      A rule of thumb that you could start from is that your hourly rate doubles when you become a contractor – this is a combination of your increased costs, including perhaps medical insurance or the cost of equipment and materials, and the time you need to spend on Being A Contractor including your own marketing, billing and so on.

      So say he currently earns $40k, which is approximately equivalent to $20/h. With that rule he would ballpark $40/h as a contractor, or $320 a day, or $1600 a week. How does he feel about that number? If he looks at advertisements hiring contractors in his field, how different is that number from the numbers in the ads?

      You obviously need to do more calculations than just “multiply by two” but that could be a useful place to start.

      1. Figgie*

        Thanks, that helps!

        He can’t really compare what he does to what other people in his field do because he is kind of a purple squirrel. Instead of just working in the normal single area of IT, he works in about five different areas and is an expert in all of them. (He gets bored easily). :-)

        They will desperately want to keep him, because they’ve already told him that if he ever left, they would have to hire at least three IT people to replace him. But we are both done with dealing with winter and just want information on how contracting works just in case he is guilted into staying until the end of the project.

          1. Figgie*

            LOL! He says that one of the advantages of being an expert in so many different areas is that he never has to do anything that he doesn’t really like…he just says no, they say okay and he only does stuff he enjoys. It’s part of the reason he is feeling guilty about retiring and leaving them in the lurch with this big conversion.

            They just don’t realize how old he actually is. :-) He looks 15 years younger and it has never crossed any of his bosses minds to go to HR an see what his actual age is. He could have retired last year, but he gets bored and I told him not to retire until he could figure out what he was going to do with his time in retirement.

            1. Artemesia*

              Before I left my hair go grey when I retired, people thought I was much younger too and so when I retired it was all ‘oh why are you retiring early’ etc etc — I was 67 when I retired and they were shocked. We retired from a big warm southern city to Chicago so going the opposite way from you guys.

              If he enjoys his work though he might be better off delaying retirement and you certainly want to delay social security as long as you can. Wish I had not taken it till 70 — it makes a huge difference to delay it a bit. And if he doesn’t have a plan. to keep himself occupied mentally during retirement, waiting a bit might be wise especially as picking up work right now may be difficult in a new place.

              this is not a time to be without interesting work if you have a choice. IMHO.

          2. Flyleaf*

            Triple is what I use. First add 1x due to having to pay for employment taxes and benefits. Another 1x due to the general instability of a contract position as well as needing a premium to work when I would rather be fishing. Brings the total to 3x. They will try to negotiate you down, but you probably don’t want to go below 2x.

    2. Kimmybear*

      It’s not what you asked but it may impact your calculations. Medicare generally can’t be used outside the U.S. so you will need to plan accordingly (travel insurance, international health insurance, etc.)

      If I understand correctly, you are looking to have him be a contractor from Mexico. Keep in mind the feasibility of doing that given the need for high speed internet access. Also, I have no clue what sorts of visas/tax implications might apply.

      1. Figgie*

        We are in the process of getting both evacuation insurance and emergency medical coverage for when we are in Mexico. Which is pretty much all we will need while we are wintering there. The internet isn’t an issue, as we will have two different companies providing coverage as well as a phone hot-spot at our apartment.

        As far as taxes…rules and laws in Mexico depend. We’ve had lots and lots of experiences dealing with all of the different ways things are done and how they vary from day to day and person to person. Part of the charm of the country. :-) We aren’t worried about him working from there and have checked with two different Mexican lawyers and got laughed at by both. (They were very nice, but thought we were being way too conscientious).

        But it does make sense to add in the cost of the emergency insurance and evacuation insurance into his contracting fee, as his company will be saving a significant amount of money on him not using their health insurance.

        1. Artemesia*

          We had an annual policy called Medjet Assist for years that evacuates you from a local hospital to your home hospital of choice if needed. Never used it and so can’t vouch for how it works but the policies are reasonable and run until you are 75 at which point you can extend them with medical clearance.

    3. Ranon*

      Double his usual if it’s work he wants to do, triple or more if he doesn’t really want to do it- they need to make it worth his while at that point.

  53. Quill*

    Hi commentariat! I’m safely ensconced in my parents’ house for the apparent duration of this pandemic, after spending last Friday traveling there. However, when it comes to work – I’m having ludicrous amounts of trouble with our shared documents on our internal company server, especially ones that are made in excel. I think I’ve stopped Excel itself from being the problem, but some of these documents are crashing a LOT.

    However, most of these documents need to be hosted on a shared drive for other people to access – does anyone have organization tips for stashing working copies of a file on your computer and making sure you can still match it up to the master copy on a shared harddrive?

    1. LGC*

      …I would tell you to just yell at them to use Sharepoint because that’s what it’s for (y’all have Excel, so I assume you’re an Office 365 joint) but IME everyone else on staff is virulently insistent on doing things like we did them in 2010 because change is hard.

      (Why yes, I’m bitter, can you tell?)

      It could actually be a problem with the workbook itself – it might be designed in a way that works well on company equipment but poorly outside of that. I just had to fix a workbook like that this morning because I mapped a query to a network drive letter and then tried to open it through VPN on my (personal) laptop. In case you’re wondering, this was not the best idea.

      Or it could be a problem with the data. I had another workbook that kept breaking because one row was registering as text which blew everything up.

      Otherwise, if it’s a connection issue on your end…what we’ve done is create copies and then sync everything up, but that’s labor intensive.

      1. foolofgrace*

        But if you create a copy to work on and leave the server version as is while you’re working, isn’t it possible that someone else could make changes to the doc on the server that you wouldn’t be able to capture? Then you’d overwrite the server version with your version and the changes that the other guy made would be disappeared.

      2. Quill*

        Nooo, sharepoint CAUSES our problems!

        (Aside from the fact that sharepoint would really kill the document I’m working on because I needed macros and also we’re international in ways that sometimes make sharepoint inaccessible…)

        I’ll check on the things stored as text vs. numbers, that might help, but iirc I think office 365 is crashing because Vlookup formulas don’t seem to work if you have more than 52 rows of text.

  54. Papercut Survivor*

    How do you deal with coworkers you used to manage but don’t anymore?

    To make a long story short, I managed two employees (Howard and Robert) until recently. Through my own realization, I discovered I do not like to manage people. I’m a typical story of someone who succeeded in their role and was voluntold to become a manager. During a reorganization, I asked to become an individual contributor again and it was reluctantly approved.

    Since then, Howard and Robert have totally lost interest in their work – I’m talking missing meetings, generally not doing work. We are all on the same team and have the same manager (Bill). Bill has expressed to me that they are simply not working up to the standard in which they should be. I should add that Bill has been very kind to them, especially given our current climate and the reorg. Because they have performed poorly and the lack of work, Bill recently told me he is concerned he might have to lay them off.

    Several months ago, I had a feeling there might be layoffs and gently suggested Howard and Robert begin job hunting (I’m doing the same). However, they didn’t take it seriously. They had already developed bad habits before the reorg and new management.

    Would welcome any thoughts you all might have. Thanks for reading.

    1. Alex*

      I’d say…this isn’t your problem at all. Bill is their manager and is in charge of communicating to them that their work isn’t up to par. They are in charge of their own work ethic and choice to job hunt or not. You aren’t responsible for them!

    4. Artemesia*

      Not your circus, not your monkeys. Worry about your own future. They are grownups; they are not your responsibility. You already alerted them to look out for themselves. Watch your own lane and don’t worry about them.

    5. allathian*

      You’ve done all you can. Did they perform as poorly when you managed them?
      Given your current role, I don’t think Bill was being very professional when he told you he might have to lay off Howard and Robert. Maybe he wanted to give you a heads-up because you used to be their manager, but it’s not really fair to you, or to the rest of the team, either. You can’t really do anything with the info and it’s clearly causing you some anxiety.
      If Howard and Robert are laid off, it’s not your fault.

  55. Waiting*

    TL;DR is my boss blowing me off about making me salaried if she keeps saying it’s on her To Do list, month after month?

    My annual review was February 1st and my supervisor nonchalantly mentioned I may be eligible for salaried status if I want it. I have asked after this in the past, as I have been with the company for almost 8 years, in HR the entire time, in charge of making decisions for the company (interviewing and selecting HRIS systems, etc.) but have always been hourly. There is a huge gap between the benefits offered to our salary employees and those offered to our hourly employees, so I’ve been interested for a while. I said I was interested in moving forward with that discussion. Almost immediately, she tried to talk me out of it, but I persisted and she agreed to do some market value research and review the eligibility requirements.

    From February 1st to March 5th, I heard nothing more, so I approached her again and asked what she had been able to determine. She told me it was “at the top of her To Do List,” and seemed irritated that I’d brought it up. A few more weeks go by and I hear nothing.

    Coronavirus hits. We are an essential business and have remained open, AND had open enrollment to deal with (which I ran by myself, going all digital for the first time in our company’s history, to protect employees health and safety). I didn’t bring it up again, assuming there was too much on her (our/my) plate, and that bringing it up would make me look out of touch. This week, our company is still running full steam ahead but for us in HR, things have slowed to a crawl. We both come in to the office to be available, and I run payroll, but otherwise, we’ve been primarily watching professional development seminars to pass the time (my hours have been cut to a flat 40, no OT…yes, I’m grateful to still have income). My boss have even mentions on occasion how bored she is, with nothing to do. On one such occasion I asked, “now that we have some breathing room, would it be alright to revisit the discussion to make me salaried?” She looked annoyed and said, “I told you, it’s on my To-Do list.” -.-

    Salaried employees at my company have had no decrease in pay (obviously), have 5 more days sick time to use than hourly employees do ( we each get 1 day per year), and are still getting full bonuses monthly. Obviously this topic is important to me, and my purpose in bringing it up again was to let her know it is still a priority for me. Once before, 4 years ago, when I mentioned possibly leaving for another position, that would be salaried, to advance my career, my boss freaked on me and offered me a larger bonus to stay (but said she wouldn’t make me salary at that time), so it has always been something she knows I want.

    I don’t want to debate the benefits of salary versus hourly (salaried employees here truly work no more than 40 hours a week, and come and go as they please, while hourly associates work 45-50 hours, must use Vacation time to go to a doctor appointment, etc.). Other than this, my company is awesome, I get 4 weeks of vacation a year (even if only one sick day) and have never been denied a vacation request (even if two weeks in duration, twice a year). I just want to know: is this a sign this isn’t going to happen for me? Or should I be more patient? My boss is very touchy/defensive, but is there a better script I could use?

    1. CatCat*

      I think the ball is in her court. You’ve brought it up and she has brushed you off and won’t engage in discussion about it. I don’t think there’s much more for you to do here other than deciding, knowing this is the deal, whether you want to stay there or quietly start looking for other opportunities.

    2. Anon for this*

      I will tell you that many managers HATE dealing with personnel processes. Writing necessary position descriptions, getting budget ducks in a row, etc. It all takes away from the day-to-day work. So it could be on her to-do list. When the next opportunity to raise this with her comes up, ask if you can help her with any of the necessary paperwork. Her reaction should tell you whether she is overwhelmed or stringing you along. FWIW, I was in your shoes several years ago, and the only thing that made my boss do the necessary paperwork was my mentioning to a manager in a related department that I was looking for a salaried position when we were all at a work social event – and my boss heard it.

      1. Artemesia*

        This is a good idea but before asking about assisting with the paperwork start your job search so you are ready to hit the ground running when things open up. She is stringing you along and has been willing to have you more poorly compensated indefinitely because she is indifferent to your interests or not really planning to elevate the position. She doesn’t have your interests at heart.

        I’d offer to complete necessary paperwork and make clear how much a difference it makes to you. But she is already annoyed (unreasonably so) and so it is a bit risky and you need to get your head around a job search so you have the confidence that you are ready to proceed with that if she drops the ball again. Don’t threaten that; just do it. And then if you find a better position let her know on the way out the door that you could not stay longer without a salaried position and so are giving notice (do not accept a counter offer)

  56. Book Pony*

    So my coworker tried to persuade me to do timesheet fraud. (And of course, I did not, but still. what even with this place.) Really hoping I hear back from the place I applied with soon. That and with our state opening back up soon, I can tell things are gonna get really weird, (and wild) really fast.

    I guess a mini-question is if me going, “hmmm, lemme check with our boss.” is enough of a deterrent, or if I need to be firmer?

    Also, an actual question: fellow non-binary folx, how y’all managing with getting misgendered at work? I’m WFH right now, so getting hit with a “Ladies” yesterday was like getting hit with a wet fish after going so long with ole Slappy. (I do not miss being called ma’am ugh. I’d take sir at this point for the novelty.) There’s no option of “tell your coworkers not to call you ma’am/put ladies in the email” because this place suuuccckkksssss so…yanno. Every day I want to put “Mx” in my signature block lmao

    And obligatory shout-out to all us enby’s out there! We rock. :3

    1. Cendol*

      Woo high five fellow nonbinary person. Love the description of “Ladies” as getting hit with a wet fish. That’s…so accurate, and makes me feel better about my response to getting she/her’d, which is typically just stunned, wide-eyed silence. I actually left my last job because every single email opened with “Hello ladies!” and at the time it was easier to leave than try to explain. I’m *that* socially awkward. Sigh.

      I’m also finding that remote work is generally helping, I assume because no one can see me or hear my voice (one step closer to being the Formless, Genderless Void I want to be!), and when people refer to me, they use my name and not pronouns. That said, I had an older director use my preferred pronouns in a call and was so surprised and moved I almost choked up. It’s the little things…

      So I guess no advice, just solidarity. Fistbump etc.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      What are your favorite gender nonspecific ways to address a group? I’ve been working to make my language more inclusive. I currently tend to use friends, folks, all, or y’all, but would love to hear other suggestions.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        More formal at work, like when announcing a new employee’s start to our whole office: colleagues

        Less formal: gang, folks, peeps, y’all, fabulous ones, team (at work)

      3. Book Pony*

        I tend to use colleagues due to my academia background (and thus sometimes jokingly use “cohort”) at work. Outside of work, I use “buddies/pals/friendos/folx/y’all/squishfriends”. I also, lovingly, use “nerds/gaymers/losers” but that’s kinda specific to my friend group lol

        I think mostly at work I just say “all y’all” or “x team” like the Llama Shearing Team.

  57. Alice*

    Privileged complaint, skip if that is not good for you right now.

    I am getting sick of hearing “be grateful we still have jobs” from my boss in a context that suggests we should not be upset about company decisions (freezing salaries, refusing to reimburse for WFH supplies, imposing more time tracking that prepandemic when our existing tracking shows a big productivity increase). I’m not talking about temper tantrums — just acknowledging that I’m disappointed.

    I’m very glad I have a job, but I don’t see why I should be grateful *to my employer* for it. I am good at what I do; my company is not doing me a favor by hiring me or by refraining from firing me. They still need the job done, and I’m doing it very well (say others, not just me).

    My gratitude is that I’ve been well educated and have in-demand skills for a job that can be done remotely. That’s not because of my employer — that’s because of luck, privilege, education, and to some degree my hard work. It’s not because my employer is running a charity.

    Thanks for letting me grouse.

    1. Blueberry*

      I hear you. I HATE “be grateful you still have a job”, especially when it’s used as a silencing tactic. You have all my sympathies.

    2. DuckDuck*

      Call my cynical but it seems like some employers might be using the pandemic as a cover. They might feel like they can cut back on things like perks or supplies or even salaries while then going – ah ah you can’t say anything you still have a job be quiet. It seems manipulative.

    3. leapingLemur*

      Your employer is being obnoxious, and there will probably be some turnover at this company because of it, at least after COVID-19 is over.

    4. New Senior Manager*

      Yeah, no. Your employer is behaving badly and unreasonably. Pandemic or no pandemic. Sounds as if they are trying to use this pandemic to silence and intimidate.

    5. Artemesia*

      It is one thing to hear that from friends or relatives since so many are not lucky enough to have a job. But from your boss when he is removing benefits and tightening the screws? Ugh.

  58. cubone*

    For non profit folks: how do you approach collecting and cataloguing feedback/testimonials? We use a story bank to collaborate with development, but those are from usually identified and built by our program people (eg. they would flag and ask a program participant if they’d be willing to do an interview with our staff writer, who helps them shape it into a narrative story). It seems like with covid, I’m getting an influx of past program participants sending emails like: “the work you do changed my life [10 years ago]!” or even community members seeing us on the news and saying “I refer people to your services daily and have only heard good things”. We don’t have the resources to go back to each one for our story bank process, but these “snippets” all together seem so relevant to our funders (with the persons permission of course). Is the answer just an excel sheet and then a section in our annual reporting with a laundry list of positive feedback snippets? I feel like I’m missing a huge opportunity!

      1. New manager*

        Or a google sheets / forms? I’ve used that (or Airtable) before for very similar situations

        As for how to share with the board – maybe you could compile common outcomes if that applies? “Stories about how program X helped people go to college” or whatever

  59. Grass really IS greener over here*

    Positive note: I started a new job a month ago, and Old Company is still trying to fill my old position. There are a very limited number of people in the area with the knowledge and skills needed. I feel bad for them, but not too bad, because I warned them they needed more resources to do my position – either people or tools or more likely both, but my job was “overhead” so not a priority. Without those resources, or a change in responsibilities (company structure), the position is set up to eventually fail.

    I’m really glad I moved to New Company, where I’m on a team of professionals and my thoughts are valued and sought out. I didn’t realize how under appreciated I was.

  60. Looking4nextjob*

    I’m currently job searching, and am in one of those careers where a “take-home assignment” is not unusual and is one of several interview steps. In this case, it involves creating a presentation to answer the assignment and then presenting to the hiring company.

    Would it be unethical to ask friends/previous colleagues (who have been hiring managers in this industry) to practice my presentation with them for input/feedback?

    Given the current job market, the stakes are super high for me, so I want to do everything I can to be as polished and prepared as possible. However, I don’t want to do something incorrect or unethical. Thanks in advance!

    1. Blueberry*

      I am, as I have often been told, not an expert in anything, but I don’t think this is any less ethical than generally practicing for an interview with a friend who can provide appropriate feedback.

      All good luck!

      1. Looking4nextjob*

        Thank you for replying! That’s what I was thinking too, but it helps to have someone else chime in as a sanity check.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Good heavens, no. How could this possibly be unethical?

      Having them write it for you would be unethical. Getting knowledgeable feedback is just good judgement. Getting feedback from people who know nothing about it would be a waste of time.

      1. Artemesia*

        Not unethical. Smart. But most people find doing this extremely tedious and burdensome so I would not overuse those contacts in case you use them again — maybe get one regarded ex colleague rather than more. No one WANTS to do this. They may do you the favor.

  61. Alex*

    This is something I’ve been debating with friends and so I thought I’d get some more opinions.

    Say you get a promotion in a tech company from Llama Trainer to Senior Llama Trainer, where the role is basically exactly the same with a slight increase in output and responsibilities. How long do you need to stay in the senior role before it looks bad to leave?

    I’ve said since its the same responsibilities, leaving after 6 months wouldn’t look that bad (especially since it’s an industry where most people only stay a couple of years). Some of my friends have said even less time would be fine (3-4 months) and others said they feel you’d need to stay at least a year.

    Thoughts?

    2. foolofgrace*

      I’m no expert, but I think six months is appropriate. If it were a substantially different role I’d have a different answer, but it’s not. Plus you’ve been at the same employer for X amount of time, it’s not like a new job at a different company.

    3. Annony*

      Did they give you any extra training to do the Senior Llama Trainer role or was the promotion more of an acknowledgement that you are able to do higher level work now? If the latter, it is basically the same job so a few months is fine. If there is extra training, I’d say closer to a year.

    4. Diahann Carroll*

      I was once given a title bump (no pay increase came with it, so HR didn’t view it as a promotion) at a previous employer and left for a new, better paying (and better titled) job after only seven months. So I think six to seven months is a good window.

      1. Artemesia*

        A title bump with no pay increase is not a promotion; it is an insult. Leaving a month later is fine. In my experience women are apt to get title bumps while men ‘need a salary increase’ when ‘promoted.’ A title bump is a cynical attempt to keep you happy without compensating you.

        IF there is also a pay increase then at least 6 mos.

  62. Medium Grande*

    My company just started using Teams. However, one of my team members is slowly treading into BEC status with me due to how she is using it.

    I typically only check Teams a few times a day. My coworker constantly posts and tags people all throughout the day. She posts cutesy things (she considers herself our team mom). The other day, she created a bingo game and asked our team to play throughout the day. I was super busy that day and didn’t play. At the end of the day, I got an email from her asking why I didn’t participate. I was polite but said I was really busy with work.

    This person doesn’t have a lot of work to do right now (beyond her control) but she’s wearing me out!

    1. annon*

      We’ve started using Teams and have been told NOT to do the things your coworker is doing as it is a large organisation and we shouldn’t be using time on it unneccesarily. I would ignore her

    2. WellRed*

      I’m not familiar with teams, but if someone were doing this on our Slack, I would have zero qualms about suggesting a separate channel for that crap (and zero qualms about not joining that channel).

    3. Beachlover*

      not sure about your company’s policy, but if you set your status to do not disturb, under settings there is a way to add a priority list of people that can still ping you and you will see the alert. I have a co-worker that will fire off, question after question via team chat. I finally got in the habit of setting my status to do not disturb, when I am really busy, and then adding everyone else on my team except them to my priority list.

    4. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      Could you ask her to leave you out of it, as these types of activities are not your thing?

    5. Gatomon*

      Oh man, that would drive me nuts! She needs to recognize that other people may have things to do even if she doesn’t and let them work. It’s not supposed to be a playroom.

      But honestly I find Teams is somehow super distracting. Despite all the notification options, I’m constantly annoyed with it popping up on my screen while I’m trying to concentrate. Mostly it’s from people who don’t understand the distinction between important and urgent.

    6. Diahann Carroll*

      You can mute her thread in Teams. Google it – I had to do this to someone from a prior employer who decided to contact me that way.

  63. Nethwen*

    I’ve been thinking about U.S. cultural attitudes around manager-employee relations. For students, we freely talk about how one person can love a teacher and their friend hate the same teacher. There is acknowledgement that the student plays a role in how much they enjoy the class. For employees, we send managers to training in working with people and the expectation is that if there is ever a problem between manager and employee, then it is because the manager isn’t using the right training to properly accommodate the employee.

    I understand the more permanent nature of employment, the higher risk of doing poorly in a job, and the greater power a manager has over an employee compared to in education, but what strikes me is the shift in responsibility. In my experience, all the responsibility for smooth employee-manager relations is placed in the manager/employer. There is never discussion about the employee’s role or acknowledgement that an employee may be unhappy with a manager and that might be because it isn’t a good fit and doesn’t necessarily mean that the manager is doing their job poorly.

    What can be done to shift the communal thought process from expecting managers to be everything to all people to instead encouraging people to consider all the options available to them for helping them to be happier at work?

    Relatedly, why do adults expect other adults to make their happiness instead of expecting that they themselves are capable of creating their own happiness?

    1. INeedANap*

      As someone who was a new manager about a year and a half ago, I’ve never received the messaging that the manager is 100% responsible for the relationship. I’ve also never seen that on Ask A Manager, and I’ve been reading it for a long time now.

      “For employees, we send managers to training in working with people and the expectation is that if there is ever a problem between manager and employee, then it is because the manager isn’t using the right training to properly accommodate the employee. ”

      It sounds like this is just a bad training method. I don’t believe this is the universal expectation at all. I think you should consider that your own experiences have given you the belief that this is how it works everywhere – but it’s not.

    2. Alice*

      As INeedANap said, you’re overestimating the amount of responsibility that people ascribe to managers. But also, you’re underestimating how much responsibilities teachers take on to ensure that all the students are able to thrive.
      When I trained as a teacher, the goal was to create an environment (communication norms, activities, learning objects) that was worked for all of my students. Not just the ones who were easy to manage, not just the ones in whom I saw myself, not just the ones who had already “learned how to learn.”

  64. Midwest writer*

    I just wanted to say that you were all right! A few weeks ago, either on an open thread or a COVID thread, I mentioned that I was salary and had cut back my hours because I was working from home with young kids and I was worried about going back to full-time once my boss got her PPP money. And several of you said, “You’re salary! It will be OK.” And you were right. My boss called this morning and told me my salary was going back to full-time, to meet the PPP loan requirements, but she added, “This sounds terrible, but I don’t care what you do with your hours because you’re really self-motivated.” So I’m not being asked to go back to the office and I’m not asked to account for 40 hours, I just need to keep doing what I’m doing and being available.
    Thanks for listening and encouraging me a few weeks ago. It helped!

    2. New Senior Manager*

      I can hear your big sigh of relief. I’m happy this turned out so well. Clearly, you are valued there.

  65. Maud Bailey*

    Two related things:
    First, I had a series of interviews yesterday for a higher-level position at my current workplace. It’s something I’ve been working towards for several years, getting experience and a second degree to qualify for it. Generally I felt like things went really well and I mostly feel positive about my interactions with interviewers. However, they told me the timeline for approval, which is already long, is going to be delayed. I might not hear back for a couple of months. How do I spend the next two months not worrying about and not rehashing all the somewhat-awkward things I said? Zoom interviewing is so hard!

    Related to that, a coworker who I used to work more directly with sent out an email that was meant to go to one person and ended up going to a larger group, including me. It was somewhat critical of me and my ability to do the job I interviewed for. On the one hand, I know that the hiring committee completely understands that nobody is perfect and no one works easily with everyone. And, to be perfectly honest, her criticisms were correct. I didn’t work with her very well, and I’m trying to change some of those tendencies in my self. But, now I’m not sure if I should respond or how I should respond–my instinct is to ignore it all and pretend it never happened. However, it’s also contributing to my anxiety about the interview process and making the wait to hear back from the hiring committee seem even longer.

    1. foolofgrace*

      Most likely the coworker who sent the email will realize her gaffe, that the email went to you, so I wouldn’t say anything about it. It’ll look like you’re taking the high road. As for your anxiety about it all, try to remind yourself that the die is cast, there is nothing further you can do about an interview that already happened, so take a deep breath and redirect your mind to other, more useful pursuits. Besides, your interview probably went better than you think … “somewhat awkward” might not be as awkward as you fear. Good luck!

      1. Artemesia*

        In your situation I would assume I am not getting it — especially with that bad reference — and then be super delighted if and when you do. You may well have an excellent chance at it and there is nothing you can do about your reputation now for better or worse or your interview (which probably went better than you think) but closing it down in your mind may help you sleep better till you know for sure. And ignore that email — there is zip you can do that will make you look better than just ignoring it.

  66. Middle Manager*

    Short Version: Any thoughts on how to capture work outside your normal scope during COVID19 on your resume?

    Specifics: usually a grant writer/manager and manager of our entry level grant writers/managers for a government health agency, but have been pulled heavily into the insurance side of our work since that is where most of the need has been during COVID19. Since it’s not in my normal job description, it seems out of place to just start listing insurance policy writing without context under my job title that would make it clear to people in my state that I don’t do the insurance side of our work. Is there some consensus forming that it’s going to be okay to mention taking on additional work during COVID 19 on your resume?

    1. Half-Caf Latte*

      I think so! I’m taking care to log all the extras, and i’ll figure out the structure of it later.

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      Absolutely! In my last job, I took on a handful of “off-book” projects during a short staffing period caused by corporate restructuring. I’ve listed them on my resume as special projects and explaining in my cover letter that I had the opportunity to stretch into other areas of the business due to unusual circumstances and highlighted the new skills I acquired from it. Hopefully hiring managers will appreciate it!

    3. nymitz*

      We do stuff like this at my agency all the time. We list it as a separate, temporary position. If you’ve only done one, you’d list it as a bullet under your regular job, and sub-bullets for the unique skills. If you’ve done several, you’ve probably got a section of your resume titled “details and temporary assignments”, with one bullet point for each that has sub-bullets for skills and accomplishments.

      Example: my normal job, llama grooming manager, 2016-present, has five bullet points. My previous job, lead llama groomer, 2010-2016, has six bullet points. My temporaries section, 2010-present, has four bullet points for the four short term assignments I’ve done in the last ten years, e.g. “response to natural disaster, 2010, assigned to organizational unit/geographic location for X months, duties…” and the current one, “response to global event 2020, assigned to organizational unit/geographic location for X months, duties…”

      YMMV. This works in part b/c it’s a government CV so no length restrictions, and temporary reassignments during emergency response is extremely common for us so a LOT of our agency’s staff have that section. However my two page, non-agency CV does also have the section, just with less detail, because it’s something that is of value in my field no matter who you work for.

  67. Megara*

    I never post in these threads but I actually have a real question this time! How much can I expect from a coworker who has recently changed fields–and during a pandemic?

    We work closely together but report to different bosses. Let’s say I’m the llama groomer and she’s the llama photographer. I make the llamas real pretty and then she takes pictures of them so that customers can see what a good job we did with the llamas.

    Occasionally I’ll do an extra good job with a llama and tell her so, and I’ll usually ask that she be sure to give this llama more attention in the photo shoot. Her response is invariably, “What do you recommend I do?” At this point I usually want to shake her and say “I don’t know, YOU’RE the llama photographer!” It’s not up to me (or should it be?) whether she uses more poses or different lighting or props in the photo, and honestly I don’t know whether it would be better to take one of those approaches or a different one. I’m just flagging that a particular llama is worth the attention.

    Are my expectations off? She has transitioned into llama photography relatively recently but has a degree in the field. Also, it’s a pandemic and we’re all stretched very thin, so I’m trying to be patient, but we’re ALL stretched very thin.

    1. Nethwen*

      I would reply with a cheerful, “You’re the subject matter expert; I trust you” and repeat variations thereon until she left me alone. I might also interpret her question as, “What has been done in the past in these situations?”. In that case, I would refer her to anything that might give her that information and keep sending her back to those sources.

    2. halfwolf*

      i largely agree with Nethwen here; it sounds to me like she is interpreting your words differently than you mean. i think what you’re saying when you flag something is “this is a good opportunity for us to show off to the customers, so if you want to do something special with the photoshoot, now is a good time!” and what she’s hearing is “i want you to do something different this time but i haven’t told you what.” i think if you go back to her and say something like what Nethwen suggested, or something like “i trust your judgment – i just thought this was a great looking llama and wanted to flag that we have an opportunity to show off here” then that might help. it sounds to me like she thinks you have specific expectations when you don’t.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Tone of voice is key here. If she is irked, the lines already suggested, e.g., you’re the subject matter expert, make sense. But she could be asking about this particular llama – this one has perfectly formed ears, and they look really good right now, so you might want to consider a shot that captures that.

    4. Annony*

      I think your request is too vague. Maybe you should be more specific about what you did that was special and what you want her to highlight. It’s hard to say without knowing specifics so I’ll continue with your analogy. You could say something like “We spent a lot of time braiding this llama’s hair. Can you highlight that? Maybe get a closeup shot?” It can be frustrating when someone comes to you and just asks for more without saying what they want more of. It would be like a client coming to you and saying “I don’t like this llama. Make it better.” Better how? What exactly don’t you like? You aren’t going to want to do a ton of extra work to improve it while trying to be a mind reader only to find out that it didn’t fix the actual problem.

      1. MissGirl*

        I agree with this being too vague. She might also be hearing “do a better job with this one” and might wonder if she wasn’t already doing a good job.

        Without actually knowing the work you do, it’s hard to give specific answers. I would see if you could brainstorm together something special since you’re both the subject matter in your individual roles.

    5. RagingADHD*

      How would you know if she gave one llama more attention than another? What outcome are you looking for that will make the photos of this particular llama stand out?

      Because honestly, when I get hand-wavy requests like that, I answer something similar to the photographer. And in my head, the unfiltered version is “what the hell am I supposed to do with that?”

      If you want a result that is special and different than the normal process, you need to define what special means.

      If the llama grooming coordinator told you, “this is a very good llama, so groom it very nicely,” wouldn’t you need to know what they meant by it?

  68. Princess Zelda*

    Question: When I’ve applied to schools (as a paraprofessional, not a teacher), some want 3 professional and 3 personal references that have known me for 3 years. What are they hoping to get from personal references? Would I be best off listing former coworkers, or are they looking for something else?

    1. foolofgrace*

      I don’t know exactly but I assume that by “personal references” they mean not-work-related people. Maybe people you have volunteered with, or friends. It seems to me a kind of silly thing to ask for; of course personal references are going to say nice things about you.

      1. pancakes*

        In this context I’m assuming that some of the candidates are parents who don’t work outside the home and may not have many professional references? I don’t think it would be hurtful to include a former coworker or two as a personal reference.

      2. RagingADHD*

        You’d be surprised how many people can’t name 3 personal acquaintances they’ve known 3 years who will vouch for them.

        It’s actually a decent screening tool to rule out people who move around a lot to escape a bad record/reputation. Or folks who leave a scorched earth of chaos behind them.

        I have had to tell a couple of people in the past that they should not rely on me as a personal reference, and I know that if they were asking me, they were scraping the bottom of the barrel.

        Not bad people, but untreated /undertreated mental illness can disqualify you for some things.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I think because of working with children, this is to supplement a background check.

      I can think of several issues in one’s personal life that might legitimately give a school pause, but not come up at work. And background checks aren’t perfect.

      You should list people who are neither coworkers nor family members, but people who can vouch for your character and conduct in society generally. Neighbors, volunteer supervisors, friends, people you’re on teams or committees with, people from your faith community if any, that kind of thing.

  69. Phone Calls For Weeks*

    I work in a 2-person HR team as the junior member. My boss thinks it would be a good idea for us to reach out to our employees (~700 people) just to touch base and let them know someone other than their supervisor is thinking of them. I think this is a waste of time because a) most people don’t like dealing with the phone, b) there’s nothing new I have to share, c) some people will use it as an opportunity to complain when they wouldn’t have reached out otherwise, and d) I’m a person who hates dealing with the phone (since I’m new, these people are strangers to me, and I don’t even know if the person has a preferred name or nickname because our HR system is antiquated).

    My boss said I didn’t have to do this if I don’t want to, but I know he thinks this is a great idea and if I push back or say no he’ll see it as me not being a team player. Any advice? Or is he right that this is a nice thing to do?

    1. WellRed*

      Are you sure they want you to phone the employees? I’d assume a group email or something. If it’s actually phone, I’d try and estimate how long this project would take and what the actual goals are for it and use that to push back.

      1. Phone Calls For Weeks*

        Yeah, it’s phone. My boss loves the phone, not realizing how views have changed. He aims to call 30 people a day, though he’s more likely to make as many calls as possible sooner rather than later. If I stick to the 30 calls a day, it will take me 2 1/2 weeks to get through the list.

        1. WellRed*

          I’m not sure 30 calls a day is doable. I say this as someone who, as part of her job, once had to shoot for 20 calls a day for three days each month. (not a sales job). It’s exhausting and if anyone asks you a bunch of questions, well…

          1. Phone Calls For Weeks*

            I appreciate this info! I will say I’ve made 18 so far and only 4 people have answered. I find myself hoping I’ll get a voicemail or even better a full mailbox. I feel like a horrible employee saying that.

            1. leapingLemur*

              Some people may like the call, but a lot of people are probably going to wonder why they’re being interrupted while they’re working. Sorry the boss wants you to do that.

    2. RagingADHD*

      A lot depends on the culture where you live, and the culture/personality types of your workforce.

      My guess would be that in the region I live, the majority would interpret this as a nice gesture even if it wasn’t hugely meaningful for them. And a significant minority of workers would find it quite meaningful.

      There was a story on NPR yesterday about school districts that are doing this. The main things they are asking are “how are you doing?” and “do you need help with anything?”

      So I’d advise that you have a list of resources or practical things you can do if anyone says yes they need some help.

      For example, some folks may need accommodations with WFH that they didn’t anticipate, but they are hesitant to ask for – or they may be struggling but not know what to ask for. Some folks may need to get started with your EAP, but they haven’t had the brainspace to take action on it yet. That kind of thing.

      If you ask them, it may open up a lot of opportunities to help your people be more successful. I predict you won’t be able to do 30 calls a day, because it will generate more real-world tasks you need to follow up on.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I don’t know about “most,” but many people do still like phone calls and find them preferable to texting or to email. I agree with RagingADHD that most people will find it a nice gesture and some will find it quite meaningful. It may not be your favorite thing to do, but if your boss insists, it is part of your job and you should do the best you can. RADHD’s suggestions about having a list of resources or practical things you can do to are excellent. You might also consider keeping a list of of their complaints to see if there are any patterns to them. If so, you might give a heads up to your boss and you (or your boss) might be able to address one or two of them, if you know what they are first.

        Although you don’t say so, are these employees who have been furloughed or who are suddenly and unexpectedly working from home? If so, your reaching out to these people would be especially meaningful.

  70. halfwolf*

    minor question: is it necessary to send a thank you/follow up to an interviewer when you both agreed it doesn’t make sense to continue because you can’t come together on salary? it strikes me as falling into the category of “won’t hurt anything, but also maybe not really worth it.” curious to see what other people think.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would do it. Thank them for their time and their candor. If you liked them, and you liked the company, you can say you would love to talk again if a position opens up that might be a better fit, or something like that. Which depends on whether the salary thing was a matter of “we have no money” or “we don’t pay X for this position.” If it’s the former, don’t say what I said. :)

    2. AppleStan*

      I personally believe a thank you note after an interview is always good practice. The only exception is if the sole interviewer was extremely inappropriate in the interview. Then no. But other than that, it sounds like everything was professional and cordial even though you all couldn’t come together, so why not take the chance to extend a little extra courtesy? It might not help, but it definitely won’t hurt, to send the thank you note.

  71. KC Sunshine*

    I have an in-person interview next week. This is one of those states that has ended it’s lockdown. Do I wear a mask? Gloves?

    1. Pine Sol Stew*

      Do you have contact information for your interviewer or the company? It would be pretty reasonable to reach out to them and ask about what precautions will be taken at the interview. That could give you guidance on whether to come with the mask.

      1. smh RN*

        I’d say no with the gloves. Good hand hygiene is more effective because of how gloves are misused so often

        1. Pine Sol Stew*

          Agreed. I’m not sure, with the shortage of PPE out there, that it’s practical for everyday folks to use gloves. To use them effectively you need to change them often, which means going through a ton of them. Using them improperly renders little or no benefit.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      I assume you mean no lockdown but still social distancing. I’d wear a mask, but probably not gloves, and I wouldn’t shake anyone’s hand. You could also call/email your point of contact and ask if they have any special precautions they want you to take.

    3. Marthooh*

      My mind just did a backflip into long-lost days of yore, and came up with “Make sure they match your purse.”

    4. WellRed*

      Unless they are wearing masks, I wouldn’t wear a mask, honestly. I had to converse with someone wearing a mask and couldn’t hear a darn thing he said.

      1. Oxford Comma*

        Even when (and if) my state gets out of lock down, I will be wearing a mask outside of my home at all times. My biggest fear is that I get this and somehow give it to someone else. If you can’t hear me, ask me to speak up.

      2. Cassidy*

        People should risk their health because you find it inconvenient to politely ask them to speak up through their masks?

        Seriously?

    5. KC Sunshine*

      I emailed my contact and asked about the mask, citing the 2 high risk people in my household. They changed the interview to virtual. I know they waited until after May 1 to hold these interviews specifically so they could be in person, so I hope this doesn’t hurt my chances.

      2. Cassidy*

        “They changed the interview to virtual.”

        Score one for the company and for you. Sounds like you’re off to a good start! Good luck! :D

  72. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

    Throwing this out there to see what you all think it means. Got a letter from our college president last week, which ended with “an extended closure of campus will have devastating financial implications on this institution. We must take a closer look at our workforce and understand which roles can be reasonably completed during interruptions that may extend into the summer. ”
    I’m reading “expect layoffs.” What do you think?

      2. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

        Before the comet hit, they were talking about financial difficulties–including revoking our COLA raises, retirement incentives and downgrading the amount they put into our retirement funds.

    2. Trixie*

      Our University cabinet members and deans all took a pay cut, so similar landscape. Hiring freeze effective immediately and moving staffing resources around as needed. I am at a private University but similar concerns all the way around.

      1. Mrs. Tiggywinkle*

        It seems to me that would be only fair, rather than an across-the-board pay cut.

    3. Cassidy*

      Curious: is the college closed as in no unit functioning at all, or closed as in operating fully online?

  73. Chronic Overthinker*

    My direct report got termed and her last day is today. She has been training her replacement all this week. With most of the team working remotely, I cobbled together a farewell card from the team that worked closest with her; myself and two paralegals. Since she was termed, we haven’t done a farewell party or anything. And heck, I only found out the day she was leaving by asking her directly as the big bosses didn’t give us any heads-up.

    My biggest concern right now is how to best work with my new direct report. I haven’t even been at my current position for a year so I don’t know all of the ins and outs of the business. So my other concern is making sure we can work together to find solutions when she has questions I can’t answer. I would hate to lose MY job over not being able to assist my new supervisor. Any suggestions?

    1. New Senior Manager*

      Regularly scheduled 1:1 to discuss onboarding, training, and other needs they may have. Keep your manager in the loop that these meetings are taking place.

  74. Froggy*

    Has anyone made a career out of multiple careers / industries? I’m not saying job hopping. Let’s say I have my degree and current job in llama grooming. Sheep grooming is similar, it has its peculiarities but the grooming skills are still the same. Then there is lion grooming, which is still similar but requires (I’d imagine) additional lion teeth dodging skills. (You get the idea)

    This is what I’d like to do with my grooming degree. Is it a complete no-no? In my fir,c I’d still get promoted and get pay raises, but people do tend to stay in one type of grooming for their careers, or to only switch once.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think that’s just how a career naturally progresses – I’m definitely not anywhere near where I started or set out to be. To use your example, I started out as a general groomer, then to a job grooming work horses, and then to a job grooming dressage and show horses. Part of that last job included a tiny bit of checking their hooves. My next job ended up being exclusively about hooves. I’ve found that I’m no longer interested in grooming, though my previous experience has helped when working with the grooming department.

      So yea, I think it’s pretty unusual to stay in one specific track your entire career, especially if it’s all somewhat related and you can see the evolution.

    2. Blueberry*

      As an admin this is rather what I’ve done — the paperwork needs to be sorted, the phones answered, and the expenses tracked whether I’m in a school or a hospital. Keep your grooming kit shiny and up to date and head out to groom all the animals!

  75. Anonymous at a University*

    My workplace made ZOOM available for free to everyone who works there, and I have a coworker who keeps wanting to ZOOM with me at like 11 or 12 at night. I know she’s stressed and has kids to take care of during the day, so she wants to do this after they’re in bed, but *I* want to be in bed by that time, and it’s fairly wearing to be on ZOOM with someone who is just complaining (this is not a mutual support session). Luckily, the last time she sent a request, I had already gone to bed and could legitimately say that I didn’t see it. I think I might do that from now on.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        or “I’m not available for anything work-related after 8.”

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Oh good lord. I’m a night owl and I still don’t want to have a work Zoom meeting at 11.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You don’t need any justification. “I shut down for the day at 6/7/8.” That’s all. If she needs to discuss work stuff, she can find time to do it during the day or she can email you. If it’s just to chat? No.

      To be clear, I don’t even speak to my FRIENDS after 10pm.

      1. Mx*

        And I rarely speak to anyone after 9. I like to have a quiet, solitary evening.
        I would simply tell coworker that evenings don’t work for me.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Same. Everyone is messaging me right now because they’re bored. When they go back to work, they’ll forget all about me.

        Pandemic or not, my phone gets muted after a certain hour. That’s my TV time and generally, I need to decompress or I can’t sleep. Also, I may be writing—if I’m working, I have to write at night.

    5. Dancing Otter*

      I was brought up that the only calls acceptable after 9 p.m. were for births, deaths and emergency room visits. And maybe not births.
      My devices go on Do Not Disturb overnight, except for blood relatives.

    6. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      What even gave your co-worker the impression (assuming no unknown time zone differences) that 11pm let alone later would be a good time for you?

  76. savannnah*

    Does anyone have experience or resource recommendations with taking on large departmental change from a lower level position?
    I am a best practices expert in my field and had been consulting for a while after a spouse inspired move. I was approached by a local institution to look at their policies and procedures and while in the middle of digging into the project they hired me on at a bit of a lower level position than I usually take but they are only game in town and consulting is a strange fit for my field. Now I find myself with little political capital, on boarding during a pandemic and looking for ways to make some serious changes to the department. The truth is that they do not follow best practices and there are some severe patterns and instances of serious corners cut and ongoing poor outcomes, including some physical and physiological safety concerns, both of which are usually under consideration and high scrutiny in my field. I would have uncovered this bit of a dumpster fire pretty early either way but having an employee hat on vs a consultant is quite the change. On the bright side after 6 weeks with the team I know exactly why things are so awry and how to fix them long term if I had a lot of buy in. Even though it is clear the leadership is aware something is amiss, otherwise why hire me initially, I am not exactly sure where to go from here and some folks on my new team seem quite wary of me, which I can understand.

    1. Policy Wonk*

      I used to work in a regulated area with issues like this. The biggest thing is to have executive buy-in and top-cover. If senior management is on board they can help you make things happen. Get a senior chop on any change before you roll it out – even better if you can write a message for them to send announcing the change and identifying you as the POC. Depending on what the issue is this may not be possible, but I would suggest making the changes in phases if you can. Let people adapt to them over time.

  77. Trixie*

    I applied for a position with my former boss in her new organization and thinking hard about the pros/cons.

    I’m still looking at new position closer to family and this could be a position for only 6-12 months, depending on that search. My former boss is familiar with plans to move and indicated she was still happy to have me for that time as she starts in her new role.

    The other unknowns I’m trying to reconstruct are the particulars of our time working together previously. I generally remember us working well together with a few hiccups which we addressed and moved on. She is definitely not everyone’s cup of tea and intimidate many. This new role would be as Executive Assistant which I feel I need on my resume for future opportunities I’m interested pursuing. That would be the biggest benefit, plus leaving role (events and travel) I’m not sure is secure in a remote setting in the near future.

    In the bigger picture, I am comparing how I feel staying in my current role or moving to new role and even if its not what I expected, I would still be in a better than what I left. Basically, trying to avoid buyer’s remorse in the short term. I drew up a pro/con list for each scenario and am trying to be realistic about expectations. What a time to consider a potentially short-term position but maybe it’s also the best time because everything is out of whack these days.

    1. Trixie*

      Now have a video interview/meeting on Monday for this new position. This just got very real.

      Should spend the weekend finishing up summer classes but will now be ramping up for this too. The upside is we’re all using video conference so much I’m better at checking the lighting, sound, etc of my computer camera. A year ago would have been a very different story.

  78. Princess Leia's Left Hand Bun*

    I am in a weird situation in that I have been temping at a company for nearly 2 years, most of it in one role. The past 7 months though have seen me move team three times, the last to a job that was specifically listed as temp-to-perm. I took the role for that aspect, which the hiring manager was clear about in my interview.

    In February however, I was told that although I’m a great addition to the team, sadly the permanent role is no longer available due to the team being at capacity for perm staff. But not to worry, we’ll renew you in good time before the contract ends.

    Only then they made a contractor permanent, adding to the headcount. And this month, after a lot of stalling until I had one week left, the 9 month renewal that I was told about has become 6 months.

    But I’m great, my managers are very happy with my work and contributions to the team, to the extent they joked on the unannounced catch up all by starting it with “I know you have been waiting a while for news, and unfortunately… ” and then saying that my contract had been renewed.

    So I feel incredibly insecure about it at the moment, but the job market is dire and I struggle with selling myself at the best of times.

    Am I right to be reading the signs that this role is not somewhere to get comfy in?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      They’re telling you that they’re happy to keep you in your contractor role, and can’t/won’t move you to permanent (at least not in the near future). If you’re fine staying in a contractor position, then great! But if you really want to be in a permanent position, then you’re probably better off looking somewhere else.

      How close are you with your manager(s)? Would you be able to ask them the likelihood of the role turning permanent? Or let them know that you’re looking for something permanent, so you’re going to be job hunting? If they’ve been dragging their feet this could jump start their action, or you’d have clarity about your chances at going permanent and can make a decision with all the information (I’m ok waiting it out vs I want to look elsewhere).

      1. Princess Leia's Left Hand Bun*

        You’re right, despite it originally being a role that would have given me a route into a much wanted long term role, that’s no longer how they see it now or in the future.

        They know full well that I’m not interested in staying temporary. So I guess they can’t be too surprised if I find something else (though at the moment I have no idea how to pull that off).

        1. New Senior Manager*

          One way to pull that off is to start reading the archives on this blog, specifically Job Searching, Resumes, Coverletters, and more. Worked for me. Good luck!

    2. foolofgrace*

      It’s in the company’s best interests to keep you as a contractor; they get many benefits like no leave time, probably no insurance, etc. (Been there for 20 years and yeah, I’m a little bitter.) I’d say the writing is on the wall and I’d be looking elsewhere, but I wouldn’t advertise the fact.

      I don’t know where you are but in North Carolina, my wonderful happy contractor position at Big Company was cut brutally short one day when they told me that there was an 18-month limit on how long contractors could stay, else they could be considered “employees” (heavens forfend!), and I was training my replacement in no time flat and then out the door I went.

  79. Buttons*

    Thanks to the BS being spewed in Texas and Atlanta, my husband has been called back to his retail furniture sales job. I am terrified. the only people going out to buy a dang couch are the people who think this is a hoax and blown out of proportion, they likely didn’t take precautions or shelter in place correctly. But my husband has to go back to work.
    He has been at work for 2 hours now and he said 4 people have come in, none wearing masks. He is wearing a mask, and gloves- he can’t use hand sanitizer he is allergic, he is changing his gloves after each person.

    1. Blueberry*

      I am so, so sorry. There are people who will tell you that this is Better For The Economy, but I personally think that the Economy is something humans have created and can adjust, not a reason for humans to exist and to subordinate our existences to. I send you all my hopes that your husband and you get through this unscathed.

      1. LGC*

        Not only that, I think I read…okay, it was in either Vox or The Atlantic, so you know the political slant…that areas that were more cautious in the 1918 flu pandemic actually fared better economically than places that were too quick to reopen and suffered secondary spikes as a result.

        So yeah, even if you’re part of the Do It For The Economy death cult, it’s probably not going to work.

    3. Retail not Retail*

      I’m shocked they were closed, considering who is open here. A jewelry appraisal business? Yes, because they make loans. The pools/outdoor play company? Possibly not for in person shopping, but they’re open! “Contactless installation of your pool!”

      I’m so sorry. All he can do is take care of himself and scrub those hands and keep his distance.

  80. A or B*

    I’m in a job where I realize I should have left a long time ago. I have been actively job searching since a month before covid-19 hit. I have found two positions that would be a great fit, plus great benefits and commute. I have no offers as of yet, but knowing my experience and education related to the positions there is a high likelihood I will receive offers at both. Position A would be better overall choice as I have had this niche position before in another state. I have also had Position B which is a more basic Position A. Position A will not be available until October. Position B will be an immediate start date.

    If offered positions at both, do I take B until A is available? Or do I stay at my current hellhole until October?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      It sounds like they’re both very similar positions but you’re more interested in A. And if the choice is a position you want more but have to stick out five more months in your awful current position vs a position you want less but starts right away, honestly only you can make this decision. Is it better to take a slightly less great (but still very good!) position better than having to work any longer at your current place? Is the difference between A and B worth five more months?

      I also hate to add this caveat in, but in these uncertain times I would be sure that you factor in the fact that five months is a long time, is there chance that the position A will get eliminated before it starts? There’s zero guarantee that this happens (and I hope it doesn’t!), I’d just hate for you turn down position B (which still sounds great) only for position A to disappear over the summer.

  81. Eleanor*

    I feel very lucky that I’m currently interviewing for a job (especially considering my current work situation is driving me up the wall). My concern is that it’s with a non-profit, which I know are taking hits right now due to the pandemic. Is there a tactful way to ask about funding/job security given the current situation? Or should I just trust that if they’re hiring, it means they’re in a good spot?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I don’t think it hurts to call attention to the elephant in the room. Granted, I’ve never worked for a non-profit, but I feel like since funding is what keeps the lights on, it’s not unreasonable to ask about it, especially in these uncertain times.

      1. pancakes*

        Why would they answer candidly? If the organization is really struggling financially, it’s not in their interest to tell job candidates that and scare them away. Reading up on their recent history and on how other, similar organizations are doing would give a fuller and more reliable sense of this.

        1. Retail not Retail*

          Check for their tax records from previous years, see where they got their funding and if it seems likely that those will be continuing sources.

          (I mean. Recent ones. We have names all over from NorthWest Airlines to Arthur Andersen. Donation walls are fascinating snapshots of money movement at a specific time.)

          1. Eleanor*

            Those are excellent suggestions! I hadn’t even thought about that… thank you so much!

    2. New Senior Manager*

      Some are thriving but many are in precarious positions. Research. Good luck!

  82. flartymcbubbles*

    Has anyone else heard of “Throat Punch Thursday?” At some point several weeks ago, a few of my teammates starting posting comments on our team chat channel saying things like “THROAT PUNCH THURSDAY!!!” along with gifs of people being punched in the throat. I google imaged it and see memes for this. What the heck is this? Out of my team of 15, it seems to be about 3 people who are doing it, without explanation. I don’t like logging in every morning and seeing pictures of people being punched, but I’m not going to say anything for fear of being a stick in the mud. I’m more just curious what this is and if it’s infected other workplaces.

    2. Bluebell*

      Are your teammates 13? This sounds like some sort of TikTok adolescent garbage. Hopefully someone will be the grownup soon and stop it.

      1. flartymcbubbles*

        The people doing it range from late 20s to early 40s, both male and female. (And the person in her 40s is one of the managers, although not my manager.) But yeah, mentally, they might be 13. :}

      1. flartymcbubbles*

        Yeah, I’ve thought many times about suggesting a water cooler channel, but it seems like most people participate or respond to the memes and gifs. It’s a team and corporate tech culture that values this kind of bonding, to the point where most of our staff meetings start with 10-20 minutes of banter, jokes, personal stories, etc. Displays of team and company loyalty are also the norm (my team talked about making Covid masks for themselves out of material with our company’s name…sigh).

        The chat channel thing is especially annoying because I have to check it when I see a notification in case someone is pinging me, or there is a message I need to respond to. But often, it’s just stuff like Throat Punch Thursday or someone announcing to the team their new mattress was just delivered (seriously), so I ended up tasking switching for nothing.

        Anyway, I mostly curious if anyone else has heard of this.

        1. New Senior Manager*

          “…10-20 mins of banter, jokes, and personal stories, etc.”

          Yeah, no. Just no.

    4. BuildMeUp*

      That is so baffling! I’ve never heard of anything like that.

      Do you think it would work to respond with something along the lines of, “I’m so confused, what is this??” Not asking them to stop, exactly, but questioning what they’re doing in a gentle way and potentially prompting other coworkers to question it or speak up as well.

      1. New Senior Manager*

        You’re much more gentler. I’d so want to respond with “WTF is this???!“

  83. WriterIssues*

    I’m very long term unemployed and started working on a novel several months ago just to have something productive to do. (I’ve never written professionally, but have an English degree and a lot of experience writing as a hobby.) My novel was picked for a mentorship with a professional author in a contest recently, so I plan to do final edits with them and then start querying to agents.

    When potential employers ask me what I’ve been doing with my time, this seems like it would be a good thing to bring up, but I don’t want to talk about the premise/plot/characters. The novel isn’t about anything weird or embarrassing, and all the writer-y people I talk to actually get very excited about it and have a zillion questions. But I don’t want to share details with strangers (recruiters, hiring managers, HR people) who I may never speak to again. I also don’t want to share the details of my mentorship because then they might google it and figure out my pen name.

    So, if I say I’m working on a novel and am putting the finishing touches on it with a mentor, and they want more details, how should I answer?

    1. irene adler*

      Can you tell them the genre (sci-fi, romance, etc.)? Are you comfortable revealing that? That usually quells a lot of the curiosity folks have when someone says they wrote a novel and folks ask what it’s about.

      1. WriterIssues*

        I’m not sure about telling them the genre. It’s a YA urban fantasy. Which I’m not embarrassed to say to other writers, but I realize people who don’t read much or who are really judgmental look down on YA as being “easy” to write and “juvenile” to read.

        1. irene adler*

          Perfectly okay to leave out the YA part if you think that will garner negative judgment.

          1. WriterIssues*

            I forgot “YA” isn’t a genre so much as an age group. Good point! :)

    2. New Senior Manager*

      I’d make up an alternate story (in different genre) to share. I think they will be impressed that you’re writing professionally more so than specifics of characters, plot, etc. Good luck!

  84. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    I’m not 100% sure where to post this – if this belongs more here or on tomorrow’s open thread. It has to do with a coworker but isn’t really about work! But feel free to delete it and I can repost it tomorrow if it makes more sense.

    My office-mate and I, who were already more close to each other than to other folks in the office, have been hanging out (online) every once in a while and have introduced each other to our respective friend groups (also online). This is great and I’m really really happy to count him as one of my friends, now, and to now know a group of folks my age in my area. But I’m constantly worried I’m overstepping, or that he’s uncomfortable with the sudden closeness. I haven’t gotten that impression, necessarily, but anxiety is absolutely a thing.

    Is there a way to have a “If I ever make you uncomfortable PLEASE tell me to back off” conversation with a coworker-friend? Scripts would be appreciated. Or is it necessary?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. In fact, saying something like that might make me uncomfortable when I wasn’t before. Pay attention to his cues, don’t invite him to everything, and if he begs off, let him without complaint. This sounds pretty mutual, which is excellent for a budding friendship!

    2. RagingADHD*

      It’s not necessary. Just demonstrate this by giving plenty of space and respect. Don’t push, don’t be one-sided.

      If you’re always the one inviting or reaching out, stop and wait for him to take a turn before inviting again.

      Don’t send multiple messages, wait for a reply.

      If you’ve introduced him to your friend group, don’t remain the conduit for him to interact with them, and don’t depend on him to communicate with the new friends he introduced you to. Let those friendships grow independently (or not).

      Spend about the same time & energy interacting with him as you do with any other friend.

      As they say in writing class, “show don’t tell.”

  85. Fishsticks*

    Does anyone know of good tutorials for Excel and Quickbooks? I recently started a job that requires advanced skills in both. They will train me on them but I’d like to do some studying of my own. I’m decent at Excel but have no background in Quickbooks.

    Thanks all!

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      There is also a QuickBooks group on LinkedIn. You have to ask to join, but when we first started up with QB, I found them very helpful.

  86. Looking for my next career step*

    Hi all:

    Two questions:
    I’ve been laid off from my job but came across an opportunity at an Amazon warehouse. The pay is decent but I’ve seen wildly differing views on the actual situation — some say it’s hard work but it is what you make it. Others say it’s a hellmouth and to run far away. Does anyone here have any insight they can share?

    I’m interviewing on Monday for a concierge job (not a hotel concierge, this one will either be working at a hospital, assisting patients with nonmedical needs, or working for employees at a corporation, running errands for them that can’t be done in off-hours. I’ll find out more about it on Monday, of course, but does anyone have any insights on concierge/personal assistant jobs? Thanks.
    Stay well.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      If it’s with Amazon and not a staffing agency, you may have better security. But you have to consider your fitness level now and accept that you just might not be able to hack it long term.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I have a friend who just started working at an Amazon warehouse. She said it’s definitely hard work (long hours, early start, heavier lifting requirements than before b/c two-person lifts are out due to distancing). The PPE is available but there is an expectation of reuse of gloves and masks, and distancing is typically enforced by a supervisor screaming at people to keep apart all. shift. long. Overall she doesn’t seem to hate it but it sounds tiring. She’s doing it for now because she needs the money. I didn’t get a sense of how long she’ll stick it out though.

      Incidentally, if you’re looking for other opportunities like that, a colleague’s son was able to get a job at one of the (US) chain home improvement stores doing late evening restocking (same kind of labor as warehouse but fewer employees around, also not dealing with public/customers). He did have to call to follow up on his application but got hired pretty quickly. No idea if the pay is comparable.

  87. Nacho*

    How do I convince a manager that even trying to do what she wants isn’t feasible? I’m a quality agent in a call center, and I can either evaluate recordings of calls, or try to listen to them live. Most of the teams I support are fine with recordings, but one of them frequently asks me to listen to the calls live instead. Normally I have no problem with that, and probably do about 70-80% of my evaluations on live calls. COVID-19 has dropped our productivity so much though that we’re getting maybe 1 call an hour right now, and I can’t just jack into an agent’s phone and listen for 40 minutes waiting for them to get a case.

    I’ve let her know the reasons I don’t want to do any live calls right now, but she keeps bringing it up, trying to say I should do it if I can, and just do recorded calls if I can’t do live ones. The problem is that even trying means wasting my time, and I’m already having trouble hitting my numbers.

    My actual boss understands that I’m having trouble with live calls right now, but I feel like I should be more explicit with this team lead and let her know why I’m not going to try and do any live calls until our productivity is back up, no matter how much she asks me to. Or should I just keep doing what I’ve been doing for the past 2 months: Ignore her requests and listen to recorded calls?

    1. Kimmybear*

      Why does she want live calls? Is it so you can give immediate feedback? Or is it just less work with needing to send/manage recordings? Maybe understanding her reason will help you have a response to her requests that she will agree to.

    2. leapingLemur*

      Can you get your boss involved here? Sometimes just saying that my boss wants me to prioritize other things right now (I would check with the boss first) will resolve it.

  88. TotesMaGoats*

    My boss informed me yesterday that my counterpart (same title, same role in spirit but with a different level of student, but get paid more than me) is being laid off due to budget cuts. Counterpart is mediocre employee, at best. And should have been let go a while ago but that’s another story. I also have to lay off one of my staff. I was hoping I could keep the person since my counterpart was leaving but no. We need all that cost saving. So, I’m pondering how my role is changing and how to decide who has to go but….dang it, I should be paid more since I’ve been doing most of this guys job for a while and now will do the whole thing but I know we don’t have room for raises.

    Any ideas on how to ask for money that i know doesn’t exist or other perks I should think about?

    1. New Senior Manager*

      This doesn’t sound like good time to ask for more money but I would keep list of my growing responsibilities for later time to discuss.

  89. Chopped Liver*

    Spouse and I are both working from home, in a non-US country which has been locked down for over a month. We are both contracted to put our normal hours in (within reason, so not required as such) which is full-time for Spouse and part-time for me. I don’t have meetings (praise all the llamas) but Spouse has at least one a day plus weekly socials which he usually feels obliged to attend as the team lead. Our finances are not in any danger.

    Schools are closed so our children are at home with us. They are assigned work by their usual teachers, which is nominally optional. There is a mixture of online tasks, printable worksheets, and assignments to be completed in exercise books which they brought home in the last few days of school. The work is equivalent to a couple of hours a day, during which they need actual supervision and input, as there is new material to learn.

    At first I felt able to insist that we take turns having the best parts of the day to work in, but this has slipped and slipped until he gets our home office comfortably from 9am until someone tells him his dinner is ready, and I maybe get to slip in an hour or two when the children are in bed. I can maybe do a little more with the children earlier on, but not uninterrupted and directly on the laptop rather than the dual screen dock which is honestly an essential for many of my tasks, particularly this week. If I demand office time during the normal workday, it’s occasionally bestowed as an enormous favour, but has often clashed with a “meeting” which turned out to be a social, or turned down because he has something major to get done, but during that time he’s tweeting non-work or sending me links to hilarious videos on Whatsapp. My work is suffering because it’s being shoehorned in around another fricking full-time job and I have no energy left for complicated document reviews after refereeing a million arguments about whose scissors those are and answering questions about quadratic equations and the Roman invasion and what’s six times four, and covering pretty much all the supplies and catering and absolutely all the housework.

    If I lost my job, I’d lose my sense of self and my dignity but we’d just have to cut back on luxuries and it would be fine, whereas if he lost his job we’d lose the house. That shouldn’t mean my job means nothing. I know that this is totally unfair. I know I have to use my words to express this. I just don’t know how. It’s making me feel so sad and insignificant.

    1. Blueberry*

      I am so, so sorry. There’s a common attitude (at least in the countries I have the most experience with) that in a nuclear family the man’s job is the ‘real’ job and the woman’s is a ‘side’ job. I’m very sorry you’ll have to battle that within your own family, but you definitely deserve for your job to be respected and for your husband to help with the children and housework. I wish I had advice, and I’m sending you all the encouragement I can!

    2. Hi there*

      Captain Awkward has some nice posts about this and much better language than I will suggest. I’d take the start of a new month (May) and new week to open up this conversation. You can say that your current arrangement is not working for you, and then spell out what you need. Do not expect your spouse to guess. I’d be as concrete as possible, something like 2 hours each day using the primo workspace with additional time not taking care of kids/house/dinner as needed. The more you can set the same schedule every day the better. It seems like your husband should be able to work outside the office on his laptop for part of the day. Then stick to it and don’t let it slide. Same with other jobs, set parameters together on how he’ll help with the kids and dinner. Good luck!

      1. Chopped Liver*

        Thanks, that’s a really useful place to start. Two protected (contiguous) hours per day would actually make a huge difference.

        Do you have any ideas for particular CA posts on this? Has there been anything recent? Or shall I just have a general look around (oh dear oh no any excuse frankly)?

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Her recent post #1265 is correlated, at least, though slightly more toward the “I’m doing all the parenting and need some me time” than “I’m doing all the parenting and need some work time”, but still related enough to be worth looking at. I think it’s just 2 or 3 down in her most recent.

          1. Chopped Liver*

            Thanks! You won’t be astonished to hear that I’m also not currently over blessed with me time…

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              This is my surprised face. *makes a totally not surprised face*

    3. leapingLemur*

      Is it possible to set up a small desk with dual screens (maybe order the screens online) so you have your own space to work? Or is this more about someone needing to be not working to supervise the kids or about needing some quiet space to work in?

      1. Chopped Liver*

        It’s a good question.

        It’s partly about the equipment, and partly about being uninterrupted. There isn’t another useful private workspace in the house (the only other potential spot isn’t at all private and is now a schoolroom!)

        Really it’s the opportunity to carve out a decent period during which you know you can just get your head down.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Sounds like his meetings (at least some of them) could be done on his phone in a different room.

  90. Blue sky*

    Spouses employer wants them to start returning to work but haven’t thought things through. Corridors will be one way. Spouses building only has one corridor. I am madly giggling picturing an effect like the marching band from Animal House.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      LOL
      Are they going to disarm the alarm on the fire door and make laps through the grass and the parking lot? Or maybe do alternating directions, like rush-hour lines on the highway, so that every two hours the corridor changes direction.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      North when the hour is odd, South when the hour is even. Honestly, you’re not thinking outside the box.

      /s, obvs.

    3. leapingLemur*

      I think Steven Wright once said “I live on the end of a 1 way street. I’m not sure how I got here.”

    4. Retail not Retail*

      Stay to the left going up the stairs and to the right going down, can it be any more simple?

      /credit to louis sachar and one of the wayside story books

  91. gee willikers*

    I feel like this is the dumbest question ever, but oh well. I work for a very small startup, where I was hired directly by the CEO. My job barely ever had a real description, and after nine months my duties have ballooned out to encompass a wide and erratic range. Some of them don’t seem to have clear metrics for success / “accomplishment”, as far as I can see. Even my title doesn’t really fit what I actually do.

    It’s been a bad fit from the start, and I’m ready to start the (long, long) process of looking for something better, but I’m really struggling with my resume. I know Alison frowns on resume writers, and I’ve heard of seriously inconsistent results from them, anyway. But is there some other kind of help out there that would let me, like, talk about my job and have someone else translate it into resumespeak for me?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve never had actual metrics on my résumé, and I’ve been fine finding jobs for decades. If your job is a metrics-type job, obviously include those, but I’ve been fine listing responsibilities and things I’ve done (not necessarily what will read as a big accomplishment), and then usually I can talk in more detail during the interviews about what that looked like exactly.

    2. Froggy*

      I had a job like this, also at a startup. It was different because I really liked it, but it was still difficult to describe it when I left. I made a really long list of every thing that I did, and tried to compress/combine them. I then removed everything I did at that job that I didn’t want to do again – the advantage of having such a varied job was that I could ignore things I didn’t want to have in another job and still have plenty to write and talk about. I was also actually vaguer on my resume than I might have been – said I did X and Y for departments A,B,and C. I felt that this conveyed the breadth of work I did and that I could expand in a cover letter or interview if people were interested.

      1. gee willikers*

        This probably makes the most sense as the way to go. Maybe I’ll do just that over the weekend: sit down and write out EVERYTHING I do/have done, eliminate the things I don’t want to do again, and try to condense the remainder into something that at least vaguely makes sense. Thanks!

  92. Blueberry*

    I’m currently working for a small company so I wear several hats (which is going to be my next Halloween costume). My boss just gave me another: blogger/copywriter. My experience with writing is assembling a school newsletter, long ago, and my ongoing fiction hobby, which is a very different kind of writing. Are there any resources I should look into to improve my ability to write blog posts which attract search engines?

    1. Nynaeve*

      One tip I heard is to have simple, descriptive titles for posts. This isn’t the time to get fancy or literary – people want to know upfront what they’re getting and whether they should click.

      You can probably find a lot on search engine optimization (SEO), but I wouldn’t have any idea what’s good. Other commenters will probably be more helpful on that.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Check out ProBlogger, there’s a whole section on creating content.

      If your boss wants you to write for SEO, that’s a whole skillset of its own and falling out of favor. The sources I read tend to advise that writing solid content that answers people’s questions is the best bet for getting good attention from the current algorithm.

      1. Blueberry*

        Thank you *very* much. This gives me two directions in which to look — one to learn, and one to try to persuade Boss to lay off the buzzwords. :)

  93. Renew passport?*

    This is kind of a strange question for this time, but here goes. My passport is expiring in a couple of weeks. I won’t need it for a while. The state dept. website says to wait until normal operations resume but also says you can renew by mail with no guarantees on processing time. It seems like a long wait either way. Would you recommend waiting until offices are open again or renewing by mail now? (I have the picture ready.)

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Maybe it can’t hurt to get in the queue, since I’m sure that line is only going to get longer.

      Case in point: I sent my passport in in January for a name change, they cashed the associated check in the beginning of February, and I still haven’t gotten my new passport.

      I technically don’t have a need for it but it feels weird to have no passport for four months. (Conversely, I expedited my renewal a few years ago and I got it back in about a week, so this feels like it’s taking forevvvveerrrrr.)

  94. Nynaeve*

    I’m an IRB [institutional review board] member – ask me anything!

    Curious about how research studies get greenlighted? How does this whole process work? Want tips about how to make your IRB submission go through with minimal back-and-forth? What do we discuss at our monthly 1 1/2-2 hour meetings anyway?

    I’ve been in the room where it happens. Ask away!

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      This is going to be a really stupid question, considering I’m in academia and should know this by now (or at least feel like I should). When do I need IRB approval?

      For example, I hosted a series of workshops last semester that concluded with a 1-minute survey (what did you learn, what did you not, what will you do differently). Can I write something about these workshops without IRB approval?

      1. Nynaeve*

        This is actually not a dumb question at all – we’ve had pretty fierce arguments about questions like this!

        First of all, if you have a question about what your IRB requires, ask *your* IRB. Each IRB will have its own internal policies on grayer questions like this. It’s WAY better to ask for permission than for forgiveness. :)

        But in general, you need IRB approval for any research that involves human subjects. “Research” tends to be defined as “conducted for the purpose of creating generalizable knowledge.” So is the purpose of the survey more to understand how effective a particular educational intervention is *in general*/for a specific population (research) or is it to improve the content of your course (quality assurance)? But it can get fuzzy.

        Your IRB will almost certainly have a request for determination [RFD] process (although they may call it something different). Basically, this lets you fill out a shorter form describing what you’re proposing to do and will let the IRB determine whether you need to fill out a full protocol application or whether you can just go ahead. So take advantage of that, for sure.

    2. Alianora*

      What *do* you discuss at your monthly meetings? :p

      It seems like protocols generally get approved on a rolling basis at my institution, but in our system they’re still assigned to official meeting dates. I don’t really understand what to expect for any given protocol.

      1. Nynaeve*

        Great question, Alianora! So only a few of the protocols actually get discussed at the full board meeting – usually the ones that are more complicated or involve higher risk in some way (therapeutic intervention, vulnerable populations, international studies, etc.). The rest of the protocols are marked either exempt (minimal risk) or expedited (more risk, but not enough to flag a full board review) and are assigned to one reviewer – these will typically go faster than anything marked “full board”. Those protocols are reviewed on a rolling basis, but they usually get assigned an official meeting date as kind of a deadline for review. Those protocols are generally listed in the minutes as “approved since the last meeting” and voted on as part of the minutes.

        The bulk of the meeting is spent discussing the full board review protocols and voting on them. The options are Denied (a flat no – very rare), Approval Deferred (the Principal Investigator needs to make major changes to the protocol and it needs to come back to the full board for review), Approval Withheld (the Principal Investigator needs to make minor to moderate changes and the Chair can approve it), and Approved (no changes needed – I have literally never seen this happen). Occasionally, we will also have other points of discussion, such as how new federal guidelines affect our policies, how to handle cases where a second IRB is involved, what types of documents we should require for international studies, how we should handle cases where a Principal Investigator wants approval to use data they have already collected for a research study, how to streamline our forms and processes, how to provide better training for researchers, and how to close any loopholes we’ve found (or more accurately, researchers have found) in our manual. Often, these discussion points will have emerged because of an issue that arose with one of the full board protocols and it makes us realize we need to create broader policies.

        1. Alianora*

          Huh, didn’t realize Approved was so rare for the non-exempt/expedited protocols! Thanks for the explanation, that helps.

          1. Nynaeve*

            To clarify, that’s for full board protocols. But even exempt and expedited protocols will usually have some back-and-forth: clarifying questions, missing documents that need to be added, revisions to the informed consent form, etc. No one gets it perfect the first time. (Kind of like with publication, really – even if something is really good, there are always going to be some changes required, even if only minor ones.)

  95. Annoyed in Seattle*

    Does anyone hate doing unnecessary Zoom meetings as much as I do? I’m an accounted and our department is pretty introverted but the higher ups are forcing us to do all meetings on Zoom with our cameras on “so we can see your faces and be a team.” It’s so clunky and distracting — the video quality is not very good and there’s a delay in the sound which really throws me off. Secondly my workstation at home doesn’t have a whole lot of room — I would have to rearrange everything to use my laptop webcam and then move my monitors and docking station back after the call so I can get back to working. I’ve politely explained this but they don’t care. We do billable hours so taking 10 minutes before a meeting and another 10 to put everything back is a big drawback to me and adds up with the number of meetings they are wanting us to do.

    I have avoided using my own webcam hoping the facination would wear off but I’ve got a feeling I’m starting to tread into “bad attitude” territory so I’m going to bite the bullet and start using my webcam rather than using my phone to communicate.

    Has anybody out there been low-key rebelling against video conferences?

    The managing partner made snide remarks about me probably not be dressed appropriately or having messy hair earlier this week when I dialed in to our meeting on my phone. I’m planning on wearing a ball cap to all my in-house meetings so the can see me but not really see me (I got the idea when the quip about my hair was made). Anybody else doing something like this?

    For reference in the office we would have a one hour get together for birthdays once a month. These video meetings and get togethers are two to three times a week. We are also very busy so I don’t think we have time for all of this. (And I find it to be a PIA).

    1. Susie Q*

      I don’t understand why you wouldn’t use your webcam to begin with. 2-3 zoom video meetings a week isn’t that much. I think you just need to accept that this is part of your job now.

      1. Alianora*

        I agree. 2-3/week isn’t a lot, and video on is a requirement from the higher ups. Not worth it to argue imo.

    2. Tableau Wizard*

      I’ve actually noticed that sometimes my audio quality is worse when i’m using bandwidth for video too. i wonder if you could perhaps claim poor internet connection for why you aren’t showing video?

      1. Peter*

        Especially if there’s a time delay every time you get called out or want to comment on the video but not when audio only.
        And if there isn’t a real time delay, you might want to consider adding one (assuming that there’s no minimum internet standard required for you at the moment).

    3. New Senior Manager*

      I get it. Since these video check-ins are now mandatory, I would accept as an unpleasant duty but attend and participate anyway. Try to ward off any semblance of bad attitude. When things are back to normal or the team is back in the office, leadership may remember and possibly retaliate.

  96. DuckDuck*

    Does anyone work in event planning, sales and marketing? It could be for hospitality or corporate or a college – anything. I’m talking about those hybrid roles where you do everything from market and sell events and business development through to actually planning events down to doing things like run sheets and booking suppliers and be there on the night sometimes.

    My problem is I only enjoy the sales and marketing side of these roles. I do not like planning and running events. I have no attention to detail and that is crucial when writing a run sheet or booking suppliers. I am great at sales and marketing, I think. I can sell your event, I do not want to organise it.

    The problem is where I live most businesses cannot sustain sales and marketing alone in even a part time role. You have to do event planning too. I hate event planning! Haaaaate it. Love the other stuff. Is anyone else in a similar situation? Is it possible to find those similar business development roles without event planning?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      That’s so interesting to hear that they normally combine the event planning with the sales and marketing – those are two entirely separate divisions and skill sets! I used to work in hospitality for a hotel group (it included a few bars and restaurants as well), and I had to market the various events and promotions, but I absolutely was nowhere near the planning process.

      Again it seems weird to join those roles – is it truly normal across the board in your area, or just in your immediate circle? I’d recommend trying to expand your search or try looking for bigger organizations that might have funds to provide both roles.

    2. Wintergreen*

      DuckDuck, That is so funny… I’m the exact opposite! I love event planning and am great at details but I really dislike most aspects of sales/marketing.
      Just a thought, could you find something similar in fundraising events for non-profits where there might be planners, volunteers and such that deal with the details of the event while you could focus on selling the event?
      (please know, if not totally obvious, I don’t work in event planning and am going on my experience in a small rural area volunteer experience)

  97. Zoompoop*

    If you’re still looking for some WFH horror stories… had a virtual meeting the other day which went over because we had chatted quite a bit at the beginning (not normally something I’m opposed to). My body clearly said “ok your meeting ends at 1:30!” and I got the very urgent tummy rumbles promptly when it was supposed to be over. I am sure you’ve all been there – your mind goes blank, you start to sweat a bit – it was the full experience. I was on video, with only a couple people in the meeting, and couldn’t just leave because it was going to be obvious I wasn’t present, and couldn’t manage to think of a good reason to say I needed to get off that didn’t relate to number 2 because my brain simply wasn’t functioning. I panicked and just shut down my computer, ran to the bathroom, texted my boss that my internet went down (I live somewhere fairly rural so it’s at least somewhat plausible), took care of business, and then restarted and returned to the call a few minutes later. I don’t think anyone is any wiser, but I am still a bit stressed about the whole thing. I would love for my coworkers to have the impression that I have never pooped in my life and I came real close to ruining that the other day.

    2. Lissa*

      Haha, I’d have done exactly the same thing! Honestly, as a coworker I’d rather be fibbed to about internet going down than get details anyway, so i think it falls until “polite fiction”.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      What also works: “oops, I accidentally disconnected the call instead of unmuting myself, and we all know it takes several minutes to get back into a meeting these days!”

      BTDT

  98. hermit crab*

    We recently a new training platform/learning management system and it comes with a whole bunch of pre-loaded courses, videos, whatever. I was idly clicking through the catalog and there’s a section called “Industry Specific” (we’re a big nonprofit). The first hit was a Ted Talk called “how to connect with depressed friends.” I mean, I know the nonprofit sector is not exactly booming right now but… yow. It’s funny because it’s true?

  99. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Is anyone secretly hoping this is the end of open offices? I don’t like it, and most of my coworkers don’t either. The downside is that my company spent an awful lot of money and time renovating two floors, adding more open spaces, ergonomic chairs, IPS monitors and soundproofed conference rooms, which means we won’t be able to return to the office in the long time. Even if our nationwide lockdown is lifted next week and hygiene protocols are set, my safest bet is we won’t see each other again until the end of the year.

    1. Anonymous Elephant*

      I think Allison made a remark about this when the lockdowns started. Because honestly – it’s very true! Open office suck, are distracting, and are not safe hygienically. I hope this is the end.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, the primary drive to open offices was cost savings. It was only an after-the-fact justification that it somehow promoted more collaboration, even though it’s been a nightmare in terms of privacy and working without distractions and interruptions.

      If a company wants to save money on office space, have actual offices (with closing doors) for people who need to be in the office, and then let everyone else work from home. Working from home when there isn’t a pandemic is not the same experience as working from home when there is a pandemic.

    4. irene adler*

      I’m hoping so. AND hoping that WFH becomes so common-place that it resolves a lot of the heavy commuter traffic that makes folks spend 2-4 hours per day fighting just to hold down a job.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Oh man, living in one of the top 5 US metro areas for traffic, that is my dream. I have had to severely restrict my job search in the past based on geography because I know I can’t handle even 30 min of stop and go traffic on a daily basis. Given my niche field, that’s a huge percentage of possible jobs (which aren’t plentiful to begin with).

        I actually wouldn’t mind my current open office because there are big open spaces between people already – we weren’t able to staff up as expected prior to Covid and are now facing layoffs and reassignments, so it’d be like a dozen people in a converted warehouse. But generally speaking, open offices are the second worst behind hot-desking.

  100. Clipper*

    So long story, my partner and I got stuck away from home in early March, and now we have to travel back (our housing where we got stuck can’t accommodate us anymore, if it could believe me, I would not travel.) Since lockdowns began, partner and I have been super vigilant, going out once a week for groceries (if that) sanitizing religiously, not touching things outside when we go for short walks, etc. Our housemate has been alone in our apartment while we’ve been gone, and we’ve kept in contact but I don’t know how he’s been handling lockdown other than self-isolating. My question is: any tips for laying down some isolation ground rules? Our city is under pretty strict lockdown and I want to continue to follow that to the letter, I want anything that enters the house to be sanitized, no cute “social distance walks” with people outside our household. But I am also aware that coming in guns blazing after two months is a lot. Any suggested language around “this is what needs to happen” firm but nice is appreciated. (Roommate is nice and smart but doesn’t always display common sense.)

    1. Susie Q*

      You can’t dictate what your roommate does. You are not the boss of your roommate. You can make suggestions.

    2. WellRed*

      So you actually have no idea that he hasn’t been doing everything to the letter already? My roommate is pretty much a hermit in the best of times and doesn’t work full time, so the whole lock down thing hasn’t impacted her too much. I”m now WFH, and go out once or twice a week for groceries and I try to walk everyday, but she would certainly not try to monitor me or prevent that. We clean and disinfect surfaces in the house regularly, but not stuff coming into the house. I think that’s about as much as any of us can do or ask of others. It’s his place, too. As long as he’s not getting together with other people or browsing Home Depot because he’s bored…

    3. Black Horse Dancing*

      I think you are SOL here. Roommate pays his share and is an adult–you can’t tell him how to live his life.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Unless your roommate is your minor child, or is not on the lease and you’re willing to evict them, then you have no standing to say, “this is what happens now.”

      You say, “let’s talk about safety precautions and what’s going to be sustainable long-term. Here’s what we were doing until now, what’s been working for you?” If they haven’t got sick in 2 months, then either they are being careful or they’re already infected and asymptomatic, which means there’s nothing you can do about it now.

      You work out a system together, which may include asking them to stay out of your personal areas and requesting they do extra sanitizing in common areas. Or it may mean you taking extra precautions in common areas.

      If they rent or sublet from you, then you have the ability to dictate terms, but your ability to enforce them is going to be limited by any legal restrictions on eviction, and (hopefully) by some standard of reasonableness on your part.

      For example, sanitizing every item that enters the house doesn’t have any scientific backing and reasonably careful people disagree on whether its necessary or worthwhile. You also do not want to get into a position of monitoring your housemate’s outdoor exercise.

      You will have to be prepared to compromise.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, drop the sanitizing anything that comes in the house at least. Just because you can get viral RNA off cardboard doesn’t mean it’ll infect you.
        If anything, your roommate gets to set the rules as they’ve been living in the house while you’ve been away.

    5. New Senior Manager*

      Sounds like you haven’t had prior issues with roommate and they must be reasonable or you would have had those pre covid. If that’s the case, having a house meeting where you both can discuss the new normal, sounds good to me.

  101. leapingLemur*

    What are creative (and reasonably safe) things you’ve seen businesses do lately to stay in business?

    1. Amy Sly*

      The Lucky Devil Lounge

      An Oregon strip club forced into the takeout-dining business in the age of the coronavirus has returned to its burlesque roots by offering delivery and drive-through services featuring exotic dancers – a concept the owner has promoted as “Food 2 Go-Go.”

      You order your food, drive into the tent, the pole-dancers do a short show while wearing masks and gloves and little else, and then they deliver your food via the grabbers used to pick up litter.

    2. LGC*

      You’re actually making me post about running a day early, and I’m not sorry about this.

      So, my coach actually owns a brand of running apparel and a few storefronts through the area. When we got our stay-at-home orders (he actually had to deal with county closings and then the state closings a few days later), he quickly transitioned to a shop-online model. Complete with local contactless delivery. So they actually hand-deliver items from the stockrooms to your doorstep. Even in the middle of a downpour. (Sorry about that!)

      We also have a Jackrabbit (running store chain) in town. Jackrabbit’s switched to concierge service at some of its stores, so you can basically call the manager at my local store and he’ll do a lot of the stuff you could do in-store, including gait analysis (through video). I haven’t used it yet, though I should.

      And that’s just the running stores! One of the coolest things I saw was one of the local restaurants literally running window service – they’re a sit-down restaurant, but they actually have a large window that opens onto the street. (They stopped that, but it looked amazing for the week they did it.) Most of the other restaurants in town will literally put the food in your trunk. And a bakery a little bit away from me has been detailing their adjustments – they’ve transitioned to selling some baked goods and groceries, and while they’ve had a few bumps they seem to be getting into the swing of things.

    3. Anon for this*

      A couple of businesses here have been doing popup shops. Call goes out via email or Facebook or whatever. You order a box of whatever they’re selling. You pay online. You pick a time from a drop down that you will go pick it up. They put it in the trunk of your car and you’re done. There’s even a local ice cream place that has been putting together “mystery boxes” of ice cream pints and treats. All of these seem to be selling out within a day or two.

    4. Jedi Squirrel*

      I heard of a restaurant that was offering a free roll of toilet paper with every take out order.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Some of our local restaurants are doing a prix-fixe menu with online ordering, and then having pickup at their food truck in different neighborhoods. So Monday they’re in Northside with the chicken special, Tuesday in Westerly Heights with the fish taco platter, and so forth. Seems to be very popular, and it expands their takeout market to customers who wouldn’t normally consider them as being in a reasonable takeout distance.

  102. MsChanandlerBong*

    My husband was just informed that is laid off as of 5/20 due to the COVID situation. Can he file for unemployment now so that by the time he gets his last paycheck, unemployment will be kicking in soon, or does he have to wait until his last day of work when he’s officially no longer employed to file?

    1. Amy Sly*

      Depends on the state, unfortunately, so your best option is to poke around their website.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I agree with Amy Sly, some states allow you to file ahead of time, some refuse to talk to you until you’re unemployed. My state was definitely the latter – I had an end date and was hoping to get ahead of the curve but the form wouldn’t allow you to select a future date.

    3. WellRed*

      Yep, depends on state. I was able to open my file, but couldn’t file the actual claim until after my first week of unemployment.

    4. RobotWithHumanHair*

      I was furloughed back on 4/9, though with PTO being used it didn’t become official until 4/24. I still filed on 4/9, but put the future date on there. My claim’s been received (finally got official notification a few days ago), but no other info on it. I’m in Florida, FWIW, and UI is a cluster down here.

      So I’d say sooner is better, just fill out the proper end date on the claim.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Oh, amen. Start the process as soon as possible.

        My husband filed on 3/25. We still haven’t gotten a check because of the fustercluck of the state’s UI system.

      2. MsChanandlerBong*

        Unfortunately, my state appears to be one of the ones that make you wait until your last day of employment. But, he got set up with an online account with the state, so at least he’ll be ready to file on his last working day. I am going to enroll in my company’s health insurance plan; my husband will get a crappy marketplace plan to tide him over (I have a lot of health problems, so I need the better plan my employer offers, but we can’t afford to pay the premium for both of us–my company doesn’t pay anything toward spouses’ coverage). He already found a job listing that matches his experience and skills, so he’ll apply for that tonight. It’s good to have a plan even though this is all a bit disheartening. First I find out my friend died of COVID, and now COVID has cost my husband the best job he ever had. Not a good week.

        * And right after I typed this, the bill for my husband’s appendectomy showed up: $3,400. Oof.

        1. Jean (just Jean)*

          Sorry to hear about your friend dying, your husband’s job loss, and the bill for his appendectomy.
          May the coming days bring you some comfort and no more bad news.

        2. The corn is in the roaster*

          I received a $2000 bill that has increased to $3400 since my surgery. I told the hospital $200 a month or nothing. I just mailed out a $200.00 check, only 14 months to go. Make a deal for what you can afford, they will probably accept it.

    5. LQ*

      Nope. I mean you can, but you’ll generally create more problems if you file in ahead of time. You’ll create more issues on your account and all that. If it’s just a clean layoff you’re best off filing the day after you are laid off, calling it a layoff. Otherwise he’ll create 3 weeks worth of issues, separation issues, if there’s something that goes wrong and he gets paid overpayment issues. Don’t do it. I know you want the money, but this won’t get it faster.

      *this can vary from state to state, but really, just wait, sorry, but it’s actually faster that way

  103. Kate H*

    I’ve been lucky enough to be working from home in this pandemic and it’s lead me to a realization—I love working from home. My workplace is extremely toxic and stressful (today’s drama: my boss wrote in my performance review that I need to show more initiative when I already do 90% of his job), but I can’t leave because the job market locally was small even before coronavirus, I’m not qualified for many positions, and my wife and I have to commute together (she can’t drive). Working from home, though, has made me wonder if I might be able to do that all the time.

    How do people find remote jobs? There are plenty of job sites where I can go type in my zip code and scroll through for something I’m qualified for but how do you find a job when the location is “anywhere”?

    1. Roja*

      Flexjobs is a great resource. They vet everything super thoroughly and there’s some fantastic positions on there. I’ve found work through there, twice I think.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I got something else before I used them, but check put The Mom Project. Lots of remote or otherwise flexible work. You don’t have to be a mom.

  104. Anonymous Elephant*

    My kid is struggling during this quarantine, but my husband’s company sucks even more.

    My son is an only child and feeling lonely and bored. I am working from home full time (K-12 employee) and my husband is required to be in the office. Apparently he is an essential employee (hot tip: the in-office work he needs to do is only about one morning a week and not the 8a-5p 5 days a week he is required that he could be doing from home). I was not getting anything done because my child was constantly interrupting me and I was losing my mind. My husband tried for three weeks to get his manager and executive staff to let him work from home, but they refused. So he notified HR that he would be pursuing a LOA through the end of the school year to share childcare duties with me. They were up in arms that he would make such a major request without talking to them about options first. They ever so graciously offered to let him leave the office at 3pm. He let them know that wouldn’t be sufficient to split childcare duties evenly during working hours. They’ve compromised by letting him take his lunch at 12:30 (driving 25 minutes home) and start working from home at 1pm, but hey… they’ve started sending useless emails to him alone at random times WITH READ RECEIPTS turned on to make sure he is actually working. They have no empathy for working people with small children at home during this crisis.

    1. Mx*

      Your husband’s company sucks.
      Is it even legal to request him to commute to the office if most of his job can be done from home ?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It sounds like he should still pursue the LOA – I don’t think they will tolerate anything that remotely looks like he’s prioritizing family over work (as in, it won’t matter if he’s WFH if they don’t ever give him space to actually help with childcare while he’s home), and the read receipts show inclination toward retaliation (maybe a PIP) for being a parent of a child.

  105. Heidi*

    Anyone else’s office plant not doing well at home? My plant companion, Mr. Greene, has been lush and beautiful for years in my office, but since I took him home, he’s very droopy and has more yellow leaves. I think I’m watering him the same. Based on the internet, the problem is: overwatering, underwatering, too much sun, not enough sun, old age, or sometimes this just happens. I’m scared to do anything now for fear of making it worse.

    1. whistle*

      Oh my gosh, I just love the name Mr. Greene for your plant! What kind of plant is it?

      So, yeah, droopy and yellow can mean a lot of things, so I don’t really have any practical suggestions. Hopefully it’s just adjusting to it’s new setting, where it is likely getting different types and amounts of light, different ambient temperature, etc.

      I have a prayer plant that essentially dies every couple of years, and then new large leaves will come up overnight. I have no idea what’s going on with that. I also have an aloe that has no roots. You can literally pick it up from the pot because nothing is holding it in place. It’s been like this for over 10 years and keeps growing. I have a jade plant that has been the exact same size for almost 20 years. It’s alive; it just doesn’t grow. (And it was originally a cutting from my friend’s jade plant that is the biggest healthiest jade plant I know.) I don’t understand plants at all, but I love them!

    2. Alianora*

      Is your office warmer/cooler/drier/more humid than your home? Is he getting more or less sun?

      Personally, I tend to be more of an overwaterer, so if I notice one of my plants is unhappy I back off for a couple weeks and see if that makes it better or worse. (I also trim off the dying leaves so that my assessment is more objective).

        1. Heidi*

          I know very little about plants, but I think he’s a golden pothos. He has heart-shaped leaves and a couple of long vines. Usually he gets watered on Fridays before I leave for the weekend, and my office doesn’t even have a window, so he is almost certainly getting more sun in my house. I think my office air is drier than home.

          1. Alianora*

            Oh cool, pothos(es? what’s the plural) are pretty resilient. I’d recommend moving him into a low light room, or at least away from direct sunlight, and make sure that you’re letting the top few inches of soil dry out in between waterings.

            I kind of cheat with my pothos (marble queen, I think) because I also have a peace lily that gives me some very obvious signs when to water, so I usually water them both at the same time.

    3. Kimmybear*

      My office plants are still at the office. I worked from home for a dentist appointment and recovery the 2 days before the office shut down and didn’t want to risk it the one day they reopened for collecting stuff.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Probably the amount & quality of indirect light. Some plants do well in offices (like pothos) because they love the big banks of flourescent lights – it’s bright but diffuse, and steady all day.

      If Mr Greene is getting direct sun in your window, it could be stressing him. Or if it’s only bright for a few hours and shady the rest of the time, that could be a problem.

      Can you get him a little lamp to provide steady diffuse light?

  106. Asking if a job can be permanently remote when applying?*

    Came across a job posting this week that has me interested. It’s located about 2 hours away from where I live, which is a much longer commute than I’m interested in. It doesn’t specify that they’re looking for our open to a remote worker, but the nature of the job is such that it makes it highly likely it could be done remotely. (I’ve been doing a similar job remotely since before the pandemic.) I’d like to apply, but how/when do I bring up the fact that I’d only be interested if I can work remotely on a permanent basis?

    1. Bostonian*

      Is there a location in the job description? I would assume they want on-site for a reason, even if the work can be done remotely, and would only hire a remote worker if the candidate were really strong and/or they were having a hard time filling the position. If you truly would only take it remote, tell them that AS SOON AS POSSIBLE (i.e., first phone screen). You could ask “Are you open to the possibility of this position being fully remote?”

  107. Teaching on-line the great experiment*

    First of all I do appreciate the public support of elementary teachers as parents are home and getting how hard this job is in regular circumstances.
    I work in a situation with great needs. We are talking no or bad internet connection. Little or no supplies at home.
    If you have a little extra at this time. Kids need pencils, composition, notebooks, and perhaps a treat like a flair pen. WIFI hotspots. Art supplies.
    Right now we are putting together Writing Boxes with local independent bookstores.
    A book: Comics as Easy as ABC by Ivan Brunetti. A notebook, a flair pen. The principal is picking up and delivering to the kids.

  108. Roja*

    So… I just got offered a promotion at work. It’s a pretty substantial one. It’s not an official offer yet since they’re a nonprofit and are trying to get funding sorted (a slower process than usual right now, obviously), but I’m still very honored and very interested in accepting, assuming everything keeps falling into place.

    It’s an especially nice boost of confidence after getting fired from my other super toxic job in December!

    1. revueller*

      Congrats, sounds like it’s well-deserved! The confidence boost of finding out that you’re not actually a bad employee, just a bad fit, is very, very real (even when you know it was a super duper toxic job).

      1. Roja*

        Thank you! Yeah, the old job did a hiring bait-and-switch on what they were looking for (sigh) and I later found out they have a history of shady firings so I figured it was coming, but it still did a number on my confidence. This is a welcome boost! I love my job and boss and have gotten very good feedback so far so that helps too.

  109. Eponymous*

    Bit of a rant because I feel like I’m going in circles this week.

    My department currently does not have any sort of training program for new “ranch hands”. New ranch hands shadow existing workers for a few weeks before being sent off on their own. Unfortunately the new hands may not have seen all of the work that we do, or they may have shadowed some experienced hands who themselves could use some more training (particularly when it comes to documentation). I have a background in developing training programs, and have asked various supervisors and managers a number of times over the past few years to help with training, only to be told “no” with a weak explanation. Instead, when there are problems with ranch hand’s work the concerns are to go to the project manager and then to the hand’s supervisor to be addressed with the hand. I’m not convinced this ever happens.

    I work closely with some members of the Best Practices Group and found out that they were looking for ideas for their next presentation. I suggested a particular aspect of documentation that many of our ranch hands struggle with and that consistently causes headaches for me and other freshmen ranch managers when it comes time to write our reports. Apparently I’m not a squeaky enough wheel, because the next presentation is going to be about some ranch equipment that very few people use and that we really shouldn’t use at all unless it’s the absolute last resort, but it’s the current pet project of one of the senior ranch managers. Apparently he’s been complaining to the other BPG members about the misuse and poor treatment of this equipment, and they’ve agreed to present about it to get the mistreatment to stop. I have no idea how they intend to do this since using this equipment can be a multi-hour process and I don’t think can be adequately explained via PowerPoint. Meanwhile, I’m looking ahead at two of our busiest months of the year and anticipating how much time I’ll have to spend investigating and interpreting the poor documentation we routinely receive.

    (As a note, I can’t look for a job elsewhere right now. My department has been kind enough to let me work part-time in order to take some professional development classes, plus my schedule is entirely at my discretion, and it’s unlikely that I could find another company willing to match this. I would really like to see my department do better, but I’m afraid it’s going to take a massive failure [on the part of ranch hands for which the ranch managers cannot compensate] and the loss of a significant amount of money before management has the incentive to make improvements.)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      So be the squeaky wheel, do as this other person did to get noticed and get your training made a priority.
      I know that sometimes if I start a project and let it be known I have started I can gain traction that way.

      I’d like to think that his training was closer to being ready than yours was so they went with yours. Just because they did his, does not necessarily mean they won’t do yours.

      If you can’t do a training program maybe you can do a FAQ sheet. Instead of calling it Frequent Mistakes Sheet, just refer to it as Frequent Questions sheet. They don’t have to know that no one actually asks those questions.

      Some companies I have had to fight every inch of the way for the simplest things. Your company may be one of those companies. It’s exhausting, so I picked my battles well.

      1. Eponymous*

        Unfortunately since developing training materials would require time that isn’t client-billable, it’s a no-go for me to propose that I do it.

        Senior Squeaky Wheel (SSW) has no material ready for his training about the equipment other than some short how-to documents. All of the filming and/or photography would have to be done by someone in order to put a video or presentation together. SSW’s last training video was very poorly done, with blurry, shaky camerawork (instead of using a camera stand), poor lighting, constantly shifting equipment (instead of setting it on the table), and an unfortunate choice of background. I anticipate more of the same with any photos or videos produced for this new equipment.

        SSW has been going to the office on his personal time to deal with equipment, which is how he’s “gotten away with” doing it: because he isn’t recording his non-client-billable time. I don’t have the luxury of using personal time for work (I’m part-time by choice in order to attend classes for professional development, which I am paying for myself), and I think using personal time for work-related tasks sets an incredibly bad precedent because it causes problems exactly like this!

        1. Bob*

          Do you need to develop training materials or can you just use the time to focus on existing processes to remind people what they should be doing?

  110. Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster*

    Hey All:
    I am so excited, happy and grateful because I can say out loud to the world that I have a new job! I have been working at getting the hell outta Dodge for over a year and finally, FINALLY it has all come together. My new job includes a 25% raise, better benefits and I get to work with some fantastic people. Honestly AAM has been such a help to me throughout the whole process and I mean pre-contemplation, contemplation and so on. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you Allison. I’ve been at my current job for just short of twenty years and the idea of leaving was TERRIFYING. I was stuck in place for soooo long. I kept telling myself that I’m lucky to have what I have let alone going somewhere else. I even got a therapist to work through the issue, that is how stuck I was. I can’t say it enough, Thank You Allison. You and the commenters have made SUCH a big difference to me. Thank You! To anyone reading this and looking for a new job I want to say: I was you. Don’t give up. I know it fucking sucks but don’t give up.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Love this, your excitement is just jumping through the screen.
      I am so very happy for you. Congratulations and wishing you many happy years at the new place.

  111. Rock Prof*

    As the director of an academic program, I often get emails from organizations looking for interns. While a lot of these places are well setup for the fact that interns are still learning with a focus on strong mentors, I’ve noticed that some smaller groups tend to look at interns as a cheap and easy way to get a service. For example, one of our local parks keeps sending me offers to help find a graphic design intern. They don’t have any graphic designers on staff at all, so part of me is just wondering if this is just a cheap way to get graphic design labor. I feel like this might be okay for some students, but I can’t imagine there would be strong mentoring or any real emphasis on industry norms/standards (or other things that interning often helps with). When these crop up, I generally still pass on the internships to students, but I am particularly apprehensive of these types of opportunities, particularly when they aren’t paid. (the graphic design example was at least paid). As an advisor, professor, and program director, am I off base here? I don’t want to limit student opportunity, but I also want to make sure that students aren’t put in a place where they’re destined to just flail around and not really learn much (particularly if unpaid). Is there anything I might be able to do to make sure the intern options are all solid?

    1. MissBliss*

      I think there are things that interns can learn in an environment where they still can’t learn industry standards or be mentored by someone in their field. There is something to be said for having the flexibility to implement projects on your own, as long as the interns will have the support from the organization to do so. If they’re just going to do grunt work, but won’t get to actually have an input in anything… That doesn’t seem beneficial. But if it’s an organization that doesn’t have person in X role and they’re willing to have a student intern be their expert, said intern could walk away from the experience saying that they worked collaboratively on a team to refine creative concepts, build strategy related to organizational goals, and develop in a professional setting.

  112. Lowly Staff Accountant*

    Good afternoon all! I previously posted on a Friday thread about reconciling bank statements…..well, I don’t need to worry about it anymore! I’ve been laid off after being furloughed since March…….I’ve been anxious and depressed since being furloughed and now I just feel lost and even more depressed…..anyone have any suggestions about “getting over” job loss??

    1. Nynaeve*

      I’m so sorry! Job loss is the absolute worst – you take a hit to your economic security, the structure of your day, and your sense of identity, all at once. Anxiety and depression are COMPLETELY NORMAL AND REASONABLE reactions. Not helpful ones – but normal ones.

      I don’t think trying to “get over” job loss is helpful – you really don’t “get over” it so much as you “get through” and eventually “get past” it. This won’t be your reality forever, but it *is* your reality right now. Let yourself feel your feelings. They won’t break you, but if you ignore them, they will 100% come back worse.

      Write down your anxieties. Get them all out there. Take a break and then come look at them again and revise them for what’s more likely to actually happen. You never get hired by anyone ever again and lose your home and have to live under a freeway overpass, begging for loose change? Probably not! But maybe you do go on unemployment for a while and eventually have to take a job that pays less than you were making and downgrade to a smaller living space or move in with family or friends temporarily. That’s a likelier worst-case scenario. Is it ideal? Heck no! But does it feel more survivable? Yes. People survive those kinds of situations all the time. And in fact, it’s possible that you find another job that’s at the same level or even better, even if it takes longer than you feel like it should.

      It may be helpful to explicitly break things down into things you can control and things you can’t control. You CAN’T control the job market or whether someone interviews or hires you. You CAN control your resume, cover letters, what jobs you apply to, and how you prepare for any interviews you get. You can’t control (right now) how much money you have coming in (except to the extent that you apply for unemployment – and if you haven’t yet, do this NOW), but you can control, to a certain extent, what you spend money on. You can make a few contingency plans like, “If I get below $X in savings, I will look at cutting this expense/looking at financial assistance options/moving to a cheaper place/moving in with family/friends” or “After I’ve been on unemployment for X weeks, I will start expanding my job search to include less pay/farther commute/less enjoyable type of accounting.” That can help decrease some of the unpredictability.

      We’re all thinking of you and hoping good things for you!

      1. Lowly Staff Accountant*

        Thank you so much for the kind reply……your words are very logical and helpful and I appreciate it very much!! I’ve been doing what I can, when I can on a daily basis and just taking each day as it is…..if I can’t function, I don’t try to…..Fortunately, I applied for unemployment back in March and my state has been very good about it surprisingly……I’m always on top of my finances and don’t really have any debt which is a positive right now. I’ve started to update my resume – easy to do when you’ve worked at a place for 13 years!

      2. Lowly Staff Accountant*

        Wow! And now it’s even worse….just checked our company’s website and as of today, I’ve been removed completely while others who left the company before COVID-19 are still listed as employees….it’s even harder not to take it personally!!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Do you think that they removed your name so you could get benefits easier? Perhaps your company was not a nice company so this would not fit what you know about them.

          I have to echo what Nynaeve said about feeling the emotion. Tears help to trigger a chemical reaction in the brain that keep the brain healthy. Sometimes I will put on sad music because I can’t cry any other way.

          Def don’t try to “get over it”, perhaps you can gradually think of it as part of your life story, but your life story will have a diversity of parts and this is just one, albeit a big one right now.

  113. Batgirl*

    Are there any UK healthcare workers on here? I was speaking to a parent today who can’t access any of the schoolwork we are sending out online; she has no internet access at all. She also hasn’t been able to guide her child or go over work with him because she’s leaving the house to go and care for her ill mother and partner (they both have covid). Her son is 12, he’s spending the days with his 17 y.o. sister who is an A Level student, and she’s been guiding him a bit but obviously this is an important stage for her own work.
    I can’t help this mother keep her son occupied while she’s caring for others; the online system her son could use independently (it’s very supportive with instant feedback) is inaccessible and any other types of work is an extra burden on her and her daughter.
    One of the most shocking things she said was that her mother and partner don’t qualify to be put on ventilators in hospital because they were already ill. I had no idea the NHS was prioritising like that or if she’s got it wrong. Anyone got any idea as to the truth of this?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This is so sad. I am sorry to hear this.

      Regarding ventilators: Here in the US I have seen a couple articles where docs are saying they have to pick who gets the machine and who doesn’t. I guess they have settled on various criteria. But yeah, it can seem like playing God. From what I am reading this is happening because they have to pick the people who have a good chance of recovery. This does not really answer your question but just the general idea that when resources are limited someone has to decide who uses the resource and who does not.
      I fully expect to see many, many lawsuits after this is over.

      1. Batgirl*

        Yeah I was hoping she was mistaken, but I saw a clip of paramedics working in northern Ireland last night and they were saying similar things. I feel like I should be able to help her.

  114. Anagram*

    Could you please recommend some good books on project management? My Economics degree had a course on this, and I’ve been managing projects for years now, but they have mostly been smaller-scale and low-stakes, and I feel that I need to up my game. (I’m not in IT.) Thanks in advance.

  115. LGC*

    Warning: coronavirus. Also, death.

    Also, this is kind of work-related, which is why I’m posting here.

    Our HR just announced that one of my division’s employees had died from COVID-19. And…like, I’m not sure how to feel or what I should do, exactly. And I feel weirdly guilty for having feelings, even though I shouldn’t.

    I was kind of expecting an announcement of that kind eventually – we’re in the epicenter of the pandemic, so I knew it was a matter of time before this happened. Even still, when I found out – and when I found out who it was – it hit a lot harder than I was expecting it to, to the point where I was unable to do much work for the rest of the day. And…it’s weird, because while we knew each other and he’d been with the organization for a long time, we hadn’t worked closely together in a long time. So he was more like an acquaintance to me, really. It’s not the first time I’ve been there when employees have suddenly passed, but it’s the first time I’ve really felt that shaken over it. And I know this is wrong, but I don’t feel like I knew him well enough to be unproductive for the rest of the day

    (I did manage to get myself together the next day, which was good.)

    Normally, if it’s someone in the office and especially someone I’ve worked with like him, I would go to the service and pay my respects. Funeral services have obviously been paused for the time being, so that’s out. HR has set up an inbox where we can send messages and memories of him, but I don’t have that many memories of him! We had worked together, but not closely or in a while. The major thing I remember was management asking me to run his productivity stats constantly because they thought his work was slow. But he seemed like a nice guy, and it just feels like I should do something, mostly because in the past I have done something in these situations. But the one option I have right now doesn’t quite work.

    1. Colette*

      Are the messages being passed on to his family? If so, I’d write a note – it doesn’t have to be elaborate, but if you can share a memory, that’s a nice thing to do.

    2. Sherm*

      Well, lots of people are being unproductive even without anyone dying, so definitely give yourself a break there! It always hurts when the world loses a nice person. Even if you don’t have many memories, it does sound like there’s something you could contribute to HR’s inbox. Sometimes the smallest stories are the most appreciated, and perhaps that would give you more of the sense that you are doing something.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Ask if they have an address for a sympathy card. Or check for an obit and see if you can make a donation somewhere in his memory. Even though he wasn’t a close friend, it is still a loss. And unexpected losses are even harder than those we see coming. I’m sorry.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      This happened with my friend’s company, and as the office lead, my friend was having a really hard time trying to figure out what to say/how to handle it. I actually wrote in to Alison about it since I could only advise to a very odd point based on what my past companies have done — though none of that was during a pandemic.

      It is a strange feeling to know that someone you knew, no matter how tangentially, has died. I think being unproductive is an entirely normal response. And as the shock wears off, you might find you remember more about your coworker than you realize.

      1. LGC*

        Thanks. I think that’s the main issue – we have scripts for what to do, but we’re not able to use them.

        In my case, I found out a couple of days after he’d passed. I spoke to the supervisor on-site (right now, I’m acting more like an admin) to ask if it was okay if I mentioned it, and she’d said the president had announced what happened the day before, so I didn’t need to worry about it. So hopefully, upper management will address it for your friend and take some of that pressure off of her.

        In my case, what was also a bit shocking was that…he was pretty young (as in, he was in his 30s, so about my age). And he wasn’t one of the people I would have thought would have been run over by this – we have a bunch of other employees with serious chronic health issues.

    5. LGC*

      Thanks for the kind words and advice. I’ll just write one comment that addresses everything:

      First, I should have said that even though we’re still operating at a drastically reduced level in-office, this particular employee hadn’t been in the office since mid-March (when our state declared its stay-at-home). I don’t know how long he had been sick beforehand, though (and frankly, at this point it’s none of my business, as
      we’re probably clear of the 2-week incubation period).

      Colette: From what it sounds like, they will be passed along. So I just need to buckle down and…write something.

      Sherm: Honestly, I probably could come up with something, but I’ve constantly been making the perfect the enemy of the good lately. And you’re right – actually doing it might make me feel better about it.

      Policy Wonk: That’s also a good idea. We have a pretty strong card-passing culture in my office normally, but being remote blew that up.

      1. Colette*

        “I’m sorry for your loss. I’ve worked with Coworker for the past X years, and always appreciated his cheerful attitude/sense of humor/strong work ethic. I’ll miss him and his bright smile/smurf collection/wind-surfing anecdotes.”

        Obviously, the more personal you can be, the more meaningful it will be, but anything true and kind is fine.

    6. Ronda*

      if there is anyway to send a note to his family, I think that would be the best thing to do. When my cousin died his sister told me that she was comforted by the notes and online post from people who knew him, including people who knew him 30 years ago (even though she thought she wouldnt really care about those kind of things).

      Say you are sorry for their loss and you remember whatever nice thing about him. Pre pandemic, funeral homes had this online service stuff on their sites. You can also send a card in the mail if that is not available.

      1. LGC*

        I probably should ask about that – normally, we’ll share arrangements at the request of survivors, but I didn’t see that in the initial message. On the other hand, I was so shocked I don’t think it registered fully, so I might have to look again.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      “It’s not the first time I’ve been there when employees have suddenly passed, but it’s the first time I’ve really felt that shaken over it. And I know this is wrong, but I don’t feel like I knew him well enough to be unproductive for the rest of the day”

      Different deaths hit us differently. This applies to personal life also. There are numerous factors, my aunt and I tried listing them off but there are too many variables. One factor that we both really related to was the kindness and sincerity of the person. We both agreed that kind and sincere people tugged at our heart strings harder.

      Another factor can just be timing. I lost several people in a row and of course, I cried over that. However, I heard of a casual acquaintance passing and I blatted. Grief is cumulative. Each grief can make the next grief harder.

      There are yet other factors. About two years ago, I lost a cohort who I did not know very well. Additionally, there is enough evidence to guess that he probably did not think too much of me. You know what, I did not care if he liked me or not, I sat down and cried because this person died. In this example, this was a person that I thought something of regardless of how they thought about me.

      Anything where we see similarities between ourselves and the deceased can trigger the stronger grief. A girl sat in front of me in eighth grade. She was Not Nice, at all. Time passed, we went our own ways. After high school graduation, I saw her pic in the paper. In a nasty tone, I thought what is she in the paper for? Then I hung my head in SHAME. She had died. I cried for this nasty girl. We were the same age and she never even had a shot at life. She went from being “that nasty girl” to “the girl who did not have a snowball’s chance at life”.

      You can see some idea of all the variables here. You said your cohort was nice. Sometimes that stands alone, the nice ones can really tug at our heart strings even if we don’t know them that well. People like this can become real life example of how unfair life can be and how harsh life can be. This can get the ol’ tears flowing, too.
      A while back, I realized that I could probably save a lot of time by just going straight to the crying part. No matter what the reason, we still have to express the sadness.
      I am very sorry for your loss.

      1. LGC*

        I’m sorry I didn’t give this a proper reply sooner (and yeah, I really wanted to, but I just couldn’t find the right words).

        First of all, thank you so much for your kind words and your insight. I think you actually did put your finger on why this bothered me so much when you said that this is a real-life example of how harsh and unfair life can be, because unlike pretty much all the other deaths at work, his feels the most like it could have been prevented. And…okay, it might have happened anyway even if things had gone much better in my area and in the US in general. But due to a lot of things outside of my personal control, all of us here were put at elevated risk.

        On some level, I am a bit angry about his death because of what’s happening in general – I’ll spare the politics, but there were initial failures up and down the chain that caused things to get so bad here. I’ve been angry in general (and I’m trying to move past the unproductive part of the anger), but this made it a bit more personal.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          And a nice person died because of it all. Yep. This is very sad indeed.

          Going from macro-view to microview can get really mind-bending. Taking the larger story and it’s impact and applying it to one life, can leave us feeling gutted and powerless. “Hey, that could happen to anyone!! Even ME!!”

          I don’t know you, so I can’t judge what would be of any help here but several things:

          You can decide that it has been a privilege that you got to know this person. And you will believe this/say it for the rest of your life.
          You can decide to do some small thing in their honor.

          Or depending on things in your life you might decide to make some life changes for yourself. Go slowly here and see what really makes sense to you. When my husband passed, a good friend of his made himself a bucket list- yeah, jumping out of airplanes etc. This bucket list made sense to the good friend even though he was relatively young himself. It’s okay to allow losses to spur us forward in positive ways.

          Or you could decide that every moment is a gift. Each and every moment. And vow to live your life remembering that as often as possible.

    8. Sam I Am*

      Different relationship, but I had a student for a short while who’s parent I knew for a long time, the parent was a long-term acquaintance. When this parent died, I wasn’t teaching this student anymore, but they were still a child- early high school. This student was smart, witty, and great to work with. The parent had always been friendly towards me.
      I struggled with whether I should write the student a note of condolence. I decided to do it, and once I had a good mailing address for her (now with the other parent), checked in with them to make sure it was ok if I sent them a note (since the student was still a minor, I thought this was the best practice.). They said to go ahead, thanks for your thoughts, etc.
      I sent the note, which was short and included just two examples of my pleasant interactions with their parent over the years. I acknowledged that while we hadn’t been close, we knew each other for over a decade, and that they were all in my mind. I offered words of encouragement that would be appropriate coming from a former teacher… though I’d change the language if I’d been writing about a colleague.
      When I ran into the surviving parent a couple of years later, they took me aside in a busy, bustling place to tell me how much the note meant to their child.
      I’ve never regretted sending along a note of a few kind words, done in a humble way. I have on some occasions regretted not sending one. Just sharing your experience of him “being a nice guy” is good content; it doesn’t need to be profound.
      Hope this helps, and my condolences to you, OP.

  116. Not My Normal Account*

    I have my mid-fiscal review on Tuesday. I love my coworkers and my organization, but the level/type/amount of work that I’m doing makes me feel deeply under-utilized but totally over-extended. I was brought in 2 years ago because the org wanted to start a new core function inside a start-up, and was given 0 resources to do so, and it’s gotten much worse with COVID. This has been an ongoing theme for a while –the lack of direction from the top caused my deputy to quit in early Feb; in the middle of February I told my boss, “[Org] needs to pick a path and the path it picks has a serious impact on what this job is supposed to be;” at the end of Feb. I nearly cried out of frustration during a check-in; throughout March there was a *lot* of back and forth about structuring my workflow since he was worried with all the shit that was getting dumped on my plate and impeding my progress; and then everything hit the wall in late March with COVID. Under normal circumstances, I would be actively job hunting, but with COVID that’s obviously up in the air. I am basically earning my salary by keeping my department going and doing the work of 3 very junior people and zero of what I want to or could be doing.

    My boss and I have a good relationship and I actually think there’s some course-correcting that could happen, though both he and the org would need to change. I would love if we could actually get the function off the ground. But how do I have the conversation without explicitly saying, “Under normal circumstances, I would be job-hunting; I actively hate almost everything I do; my therapist thinks I should quit; and you’ve known that these issues have existed for three months. So, what’s the plan?”

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, I was hired to do X, Y and Z. Here I am doing a, b and c with no end in sight. What do you think the near future holds for me here? And do you think that I will ever get to X, Y and Z as originally planned?”

      You were brought in 24 months ago. Covid has only been going on for a few months (depending on how it was handled in your area). This means you have as many as 20 months with this company under more normal circumstances. What happened to your position in those 20 months? Did they develop the position as promised? If no, then they have shown you who they are and it’s okay to believe them.

  117. Lauren*

    GREAT NEWS TO SHARE

    Our 20% pay cut was reversed!!!
    12 of 13 pf the furlough people are now working again. HR SVP not yet since we are still on a hiring freeze.
    We get summer Fridays now!

    We have no idea how. It was for 4 months, but only lasted for 1.5 months. We didn’t win any clients so we are all a bit stunned.

    1. CorporateDroneLiz*

      Congrats!! That’s great news! I wonder if maybe your employer qualified for PPP?

  118. Jedi Squirrel*

    Question about job searching and social media.

    How necessary is it to scrub my social media?

    I’m very political on social media, which is my right. And no organization is under any obligation to hire me. I get all that. Still, it seems odd to me that in some instances, if you are on one side of the political spectrum, that’s a good thing that will cause companies to hire you. I’m not on that side. (And I’m referring to my location only. The opposite is probably true elsewhere.)

    I’m not trying to be political here. But I would much rather work for a company that supports the same causes I do. If a prospective employer saw my social media and declined to offer me a job because we’re on opposite sides of the political spectrum, I’m okay with that. I’d rather not work for them either.

    Alison, if this is too political or gets too political, please remove or close it.

    1. Pine Sol Stew*

      It sounds like you’ve kind of answered your own question here. Presuming that your political posts are strictly political and don’t tip over into being openly insulting/inflammatory toward people who disagree with you (which can stick in the craw of people who don’t disagree), then — you’re willing to accept the potential consequence of not being hired by people who disagree with you. So it doesn’t sound terribly necessary to scrub.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I’d say read them for tone as much as political leanings.

      Do you come across as snarky, mean, callous, vindictive, smug, or a hothead?

      Do you sound like a nitpicker, or a scold? Tiresome? Tone-deaf? Lacking perspective?

      Do you sound like you’re wishing ill on anyone, or like you’re celebrating bad things happening to people because it “serves them right”?

      Would people who vote for the same candidates as you avoid sharing your posts because it gives their party a bad name?

      People will draw conclusions about your personality and character based on how you express your values, as much as the values themselves. So I’d say curate your feed to get rid of anything where in hindsight, you were not being your best self at that moment. Even if you still think you were right in principle.

      People will hire folks with opposite views. Nobody wants to hire a jerk.

    3. The corn is in the roaster*

      Why not remove some of it. You made your point, which of your friends are looking at long ago posts? Does it help you in any way? If it cannot help you, it can only hurt you in the long run.

  119. Calathea*

    I posted here about my work issues back in January, and I’m sorry to say that things haven’t improved. As a quick recap, my manager is very nitpicky and finds fault in just about everything I do, I get regular negative feedback and continued warnings that I might be put on a performance improvement plan, and I was rated a 2 overall on my Q4 performance review even though I received 3’s in each performance category.

    Shortly after my last post, it became too much for me and I had a breakdown and was signed off work for 4 weeks with depression and anxiety (this is a thing in the UK, doctors will sign you off for stress). I returned to work in February and since then things haven’t been great. Work had me do an occupational health assessment and that didn’t really result in any changes for me. My manager now asks me how I am doing mentally before launching into her usual criticisms. We have been working from home for over a month due to Covid-19 and my managers are giving no slack whatsoever. We are expected to perform at 100% just as we would do in the office, and if anything they have become more critical of me.

    My Q1 appraisal was last week and I was given a 2 yet again, and I was told that if I don’t improve by May 15th they will move me to an official performance improvement plan. The reasons this time? First, I didn’t host a roundtable talk as planned at the end of March because we all moved to remote working. I asked my manager if I should reschedule the talk and she said, and I quote (I’ve got the screenshot receipts), “Yes, please cancel it”. Yet two weeks later in my appraisal, she tells me that my rating is a 2 because I cancelled the talk instead of hosting it on video chat. Wtf?

    Another reason she gave me a 2 was that our director emailed the team asking if any of us could do a side task for her. I volunteered for it since I had experience in this area that others didn’t, and in my email to the director, I said: “I’ll have time later this week to do it”. That was Wednesday afternoon, and I sent her the completed product (which she decided not to even use at all, because management scrapped the initiative) on Friday. Well, apparently that was a big issue because my manager relayed to me that the director said I should have done the task immediately upon receiving the email, even though she knew I wouldn’t do it right away and didn’t say anything! I was also told that I shouldn’t volunteer for things and “bagsy” them, right after being telling me that I don’t volunteer for things often enough. Ok….what? It just feels like literally everything I do is wrong.

    Another recent incident that I was scolded for was for not following a process that I didn’t know existed. The director sent me a snarky email telling me I needed to follow a certain process, I sent an apologetic email in response and assured her I would do the thing, and she replied back to tell me she shouldn’t have had to remind me, as it was in the process document. The obscure special process document for this one client who apparently has their own rules, that I have never seen in my life and didn’t know existed! My manager asked me about this (I guess the director complained about it to her) and I said I had no way of knowing about that special process. She basically says “hmm oh well now you know” and held it against me anyway, telling me that I’m not doing that great and they need to see a big improvement in my performance in the next two weeks. I was also knocked for copying a folder on the server and moving it, not cutting a folder and moving it – this seems to be a BIG DEAL. Even though on the same conference call where it was discovered I didn’t cut the folder (gasp!) my colleague revealed that she quoted the client the wrong price which we are now held to, and also gave them the wrong due date for a deliverable so we are out money and time! How is that let slide but the folder thing is a big problem, when it was resolved in literally 20 seconds?

    So the point of this ramble is, should I just put in my notice on May 15th? I clearly can’t make these people happy and my confidence is completely shattered. I cry all the time and feel pretty worthless. I feel like I’m an idiot and can’t do anything right. I can’t think of a worse time to be without a job, so I just don’t know what to do. Companies aren’t hiring right now and who knows how long I’ll be unemployed if I quit? But I think it’s probably better to quit than be fired, right? I’m an immigrant so I’m not eligible for unemployment benefits. My husband thinks I’m being bullied but I don’t think I have any recourse. Any advice for me? Should I quit before they fire me? I can’t see myself coming back from any of this, it feels like their perception of me is that I’m a fool no matter what I do.

    1. Calathea*

      Oh and how did I forget this? We need to send all emails and documents in Arial size 10. My manager kept pulling me up for sending emails in Calibri size 11, even though Arial size 10 was my default font and I double-checked the font before sending any emails. IT support figured out that my Outlook had a bug that was reverting the font back to the Windows default, Calibri size 11. All good right? Nope! No excuses, she’s holding it against me anyway as more evidence that I should be on a PIP.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        In. what. World….she’s this wound up and is using it against you regarding the FONT FACE you’re using.

        I’m so sorry to hear you’re still suffering this person. The pit of my stomach tells me that she’s just working every single angle to get rid of you. And it’s not because of your actual work product, it’s because she’s simply set against you. Some people are just straight up dark like that, they just don’t like you for no actual reason other than “just don’t! *shrug*”.

        These are unreasonable teeny expectations and it’s gross.

        1. leapingLemur*

          I agree. The boss is doing her best to get rid of you, and the only thing to do is leave. Sorry.

      2. Alan*

        Yeah I agree with your husband that this is bullying behaviour. If it’s costing you your health I think you should get out if that’s at all feasible.

    2. Type 2*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I’ve been there and you can’t do anything right.

      Can you afford to quit? Could you get unemployment if they terminate you?

      This really stinks – but if you stay, you might suffer some mental health damage. I’ve had an abusive boss and it takes a while to get over it. Sending you good thoughts!

    3. Ronda*

      i am not in the uk but i did think the uk had more worker protection than the US “right to work” state that I live in.
      right to work means you can quit and anytime and your employer can fire you at anytime.
      This nit-picking may be them building cause to fire you (if that is required in the UK).

      You might want to consult with a UK employment legal help agency (there might be ones specifically for immigrants too) and see what your options are.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      If your company has an HR, I would make an appointment with them to go over your two recent reviews with your email/electronic documentation of the manager’s “explanation” for things. Ask HR to explain how you rated a 2 when all the inputs were 3. Ask HR to explain how you are being held accountable and marked down for things that your manager approved or didn’t explain and then said were still an issue. Ask with an air of “I really want to understand so I can improve” but knowing that the underlying message is, “I’m clearly being sandbagged/bullied, please take note.”

      Or, you can do all that on your way out after you give notice, because what you’re experiencing is Not Okay and will not end well for you (PIP, probably termination) without intervention from someone higher up than your manager who sees what’s really going on.

    5. Batgirl*

      I’d call ACAS for advice, re putting in a formal complaint to HR and possibly going on long term sick if you’re crying every day. When my boyfriend was being similarly bullied by his boss (he outperformed his boss), an employment lawyer told him if he quit he could probably do the company for constructive dismissal. Are you logging things and keeping evidence? Id love to see what an employment tribunal would make of the font bullshit if you have those emails.

  120. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    Had an interview this week for a 20 hour/week, fully remote coordinator position that right now is temp for the next 6 months. Really hoping I get it – an old boss of mine is currently giving me 10-15 hours a week of freelance work, and if I got this on top of it I’d be close to making my previous full time salary without having to work onsite anywhere until the fall. Fingers crossed!

  121. Lucille B.*

    Oh man you guys I am so exhausted from managing people remotely right now. I miss having an office and being able to talk to people truly face to face (not just on Zoom). I miss people being able to read tone and body language in each other’s responses instead of just text on a screen. I know we are all tired and frustrated and want life to get back to “normal” again, but can we please just use our last shred of energy on reading positive connotations into things instead of negative ones??

    1. MissDisplaced*

      See, I don’t miss it AT ALL. I’ve been perfectly delighted getting to be WFH all the time. Nor do I miss the 2 hours+ of daily of commuting into an open office I absolutely hated. What a waste of of my ‘frickin time.

      My immediate team was always remote, but I was forced into the office because I live near the main corporate office. No one else on my team had to do that and they always all WFH. It pissed me off endlessly. I am not planning on being forced back when this pandemic is over. NOPE. I will not sit in that giant petri germ dish again.

  122. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    My patience used to be thin enough but holy…moly.

    I just had an accounting department tell me that “oh actually we didn’t make that payment as planned, it’s tentatively scheduled for our next check run, which is next week.”

    So I was like “Cool cool, so we will release your next shipment as soon as we get the check. I cannot extend more credit you’re far above our normal threshold allowed anyways.” because I can’t pay our bills on “maybe” and I truly do feel these people are clearly in a precarious situation, one we hear about in the news all the time. The reason so many of you folks are taking wage cuts.

    The procurement agent then has the nerve to pop in and be all “I thought as long as our accounting team was in communication with you, you’d release all our orders?” Wait, what? Why is this ever a thing?

    I’m tired and didn’t even want to get out of bed today and this is what I deal with first thing. Damn I never knew I could pay our company bills with “communication”.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I am going try that. I will “communicate” to the grocery store that I “tentantively” have it scheduled to pay for my groceries next week and see if they let me walk out the door with a cart full of groceries.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        “Oh just put it on my tab!”

        I just watched a history doc on Heinz creator and how he went bankrupt and was ARRESTED for not paying his bills to his debtors. We’ve changed a lot…but some days I wish I could send these boneheads to the slammer at least long enough to be booked and inconvenienced.

    2. Occasional Baker*

      I’ve replied “Yes, we would have released orders with confirmed payment status, but since you have NOT made a payment, we won’t be able to move forward with shipping”
      Basically – if you don’t keep your commitment, clearly I won’t keep ours!
      People are so ballsy!!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I love this!

        I have accepted “checks in the mail” or “payment date” previously but once you show that this is just a “maybe”, I will then make my response a “maybe”.

        I just snapped off that I need both communication and committed payments.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think we should try this at home. We can call our creditors daily and inform them that because we call daily they can just keep providing the products and services we need. Then we don’t have to worry about that pesky problem of paying for things.

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      In other words “We know we didn’t pay on time and we don’t even know if we’ll be able to pay even just one week late.”

      I assume if there was any hint of an apology you would have indicated it.

  123. Echo*

    Anyone have advice on how to shift from “middle management” to true leadership of a project?

    I manage a team of junior staff and I report to a senior manager, “Hortensia”. I was brought on (from another team within my company) in the middle of phase one of a project. At that stage, Hortensia had already developed a project plan for phase one and my role was to flesh it out, assign work to the staff and manage their workloads, and keep on top of deadlines–really more of a project management role. For phase two, Hortensia would like me to take on more ownership and leadership and has asked me to be responsible for the project plan itself, with her role being more to review and approve my work.

    The problem is that I feel like I’m struggling with communicating this to my team. They want me to use my 1:1s with them to communicate “what Hortensia wants” to them. When I give them an assignment that 100% comes from me, they still ask “what does Hortensia want this to look like?”. I don’t want them to feel like I’m just a conduit passing their work between them and Hortensia; I want them to feel like they are doing meaningful work with me as their leader. I’ve been trying to be transparent about the project process (e.g., “I’m going to take a look at your teapot, teacup, and saucer design proposals, give you feedback, and then consolidate them into a full tea set proposal which I’ll share with Hortensia”) but I think there’s more of a mindset shift that is needed, and I’m not sure how to bring that about. Any advice?

    n.b., Hortensia is 100% aware of this challenge and is on board with helping me solve it – just wanted to also get the perspectives of folks here.

    1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      They want me to use my 1:1s with them to communicate “what Hortensia wants” to them.

      Simple answer. “What Hortensia wants is for me to be in charge.”

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Hortensia should be telling them that they report to you and you will be giving them info from her.

      What has happened here is that there has been a change in command, information flow and NO ONE has informed them. Not too hard to fix, really, that’s a good thing.

  124. Nard-dog*

    I’m on Season 8 of the office now. A few episodes in and honestly….I really like Andy! I didn’t’ like his character at first, but I think he’s had the most change! I feel like he’s the most realistic example of a realistic portrayal of a good but goofy manager trying to do right by his team. I found a lot of similarities between him and Michael Scott but he’s a less caricature version of him. Andy wasn’t the best at his core function (sales) but people still liked him. 

    -He stood up to his new CEO when he said half the office were losers. Even though he desperately wants to make a good impression, he still goes to him and says “I can’t have you working on faulty information” and listed off why all the “losers” were great employees. 

    -He got a tattoo on his ass to incentivize his employees. 

    -He was friends with Darryl who was also up against him for the Manager position. When Darryl was resentful that he got the job and not him, he had the difficult conversation and told him why he didn’t get it. He pushed him to stop feeling sorry for himself and take control of his career. 

    My opinion may change after I continue watching more episodes lol but for now he seems like a good manager to me! 

    1. MissDisplaced*

      OMG! I think I’d upchuck! This is just a show I could never get into for some reason. Maybe it hits too close to home or something? IDK. But I love the movie Office Space. Oh those TPS reports. Lumberg!

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I truly cannot stand some of the characters (Nellie, Ryan, Kelly, Angela) and just FF through most of them.

  125. Vatch*

    References – if I’ve said they can contact my current boss, do I need to also include that boss as a reference? How many references do I need?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s up to your potential future employer how many references they want to request. If they don’t specify a number, three is a fine number to go with. And, yes, if they can contact your current boss, that’s a reference.

  126. I miss DC*

    I started a new job less than two months ago. Whew. Corona hit and we were lucky, no one got furloughed, but they just announced a pay cut since the state has put in a lot of money in emergency. I was so excited to start the job because I was leaving my toxic workplace and my boss promised mentorship and helping me get to where I want to be professionally (working at the federal level.) I took the pay cut in hopes that it would help me professionally anyways. Well, then there’s the pay cut.
    Yesterday, a colleague forwarded me a federal job in DC that makes six figures. I could never have dreamed I would actually meet the qualifications, but I do! I’m really tempted to apply. I know federal positions are very competitive, so it’s not even a guarantee that I’d get it. But I feel guilty even thinking of applying, mostly because I just started this job and really like the culture and team, and my boss has been so supportive and really fought hard to make sure I wouldn’t get cut as a new employee. But I live in the west and it’s been my goal to move back to DC/Baltimore. After giving up jobs out there, I told myself I’d live in the west for 2-3 more years in this position to gain more experience. Then this comes up!
    What do I do? My boss knows this is a stepping stone role for me. She even said “If you find a higher paying job within the year, just let me know if you try for a different role, so I’m not surprised.” But things are so iffy right now that I’m afraid to tell her I’m thinking of applying. Should I apply? Or should I wait a few more years (I’m turning 28 next week and my goal is to be back in DC/Baltimore or home in Atlanta before I turn 35) and see if it’ll pop back up again then? Staying in my current job, I believe this would be a slow track to a similar federal position that just popped up yesterday. I don’t know if it’s a good idea to burn bridges because the professional world is so small.

    Basically… should I apply? And should I tell my boss if I apply?

    1. WellRed*

      Apply for the job. Don’t tell your boss. You might not even get an interview.

      1. irene adler*

        Exactly. GO for it!
        Otherwise, you’ll look back and wonder, “what if I had applied…?”

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Apply for the job. Federal hiring can take a very long time. If the job requires a security clearance, you are looking at a year – likely more if you’ve lived in a foreign country. If you don’t get the job, no big deal. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    3. Annony*

      Apply for the job. I probably wouldn’t mention applying unless you get an interview. At that point, evaluate whether you feel comfortable telling her. From what you have said it sounds like she would not hold it against you.

    4. Purple Jello*

      Cost of living in Washington is very high. Don’t just look at the 6figure salary…

      1. MissBliss*

        I think that’s why I Miss DC said DC/Baltimore– cost of living here is… Not so high. Depending on the neighborhood. That’s why so many of my neighbors live here and commute to DC.

    5. MissBliss*

      Apply for the job, and good luck! Hold off on telling your boss for now. She may have asked for a heads up, but these are unusual circumstances– if you get the job and let her know this wasn’t planned for, but given the world we’re living in, you felt the need to take the opportunity as presented, a reasonable person will understand. She sounds reasonable.

  127. Sad Employee*

    Hi everyone, hope you’re all staying safe out there!

    I’m struggling to see any future in my current workplace. I first joined as an intern, then worked my way up to where I am now, 2+ years later. I am still he youngest in the company, but I’ve never had an issue with that in the past, or questioned it. About 6 months ago or so, my managers decided to fire two of my coworkers for underperforming, leaving me the only one left in the company! They’ve promised a nice promotion, etc. so that I could continue working there, and so I accepted. Now I’m questioning if it was a mistake.

    They’ve always treated me well, but ever since then, I feel extremely uncomfortable managing literally everything with no support. I had to learn how to perform certain tasks in various departments that I have no experience in, and get sidelined with I ask for help or resources. I don’t know how I managed it, but I pushed through with good results. Now working remotely, communication seems as worse as before. I’m constantly getting bombarded with emails from our vendors for unpaid invoices, and it all falls on me to take the brunt of it. My manager refuses to answer my emails, team chats, calls, or anything. they’re giving off serious bottleneck vibes, and I’m at wits end! Not to mention they dragged the hiring process (that I myself had to manage) for so long that they say they’re unable to hire anyone at the moment due to the pandemic, leaving me yet again to stay afloat and keep everything alive.

    I’m beginning to feel like I’m seriously being taken advantage of. I’m upset at myself for ever imaging that I can grow into a a senior position in this company. I’ve saved the company countless times, yet don’t get recognized, appreciated, or even fairly compensated. My currently salary WITH the previous promotion is still severely under-market for where I’m located.

    Even while working from home, I find myself crying every night to sleep, wishing that I can move away from this terrible environment. Job searching is incredibly difficult right now, and I always get told that I should be happy to even have a job, and that I should suck it up and stop complaining. I’m only 25, but I feel so drained in all aspects. It’s not like I hate the job, but I just cannot continue to accept the disrespect and being treated this way. Is it time to move on? I’ve considered quitting ASAP, even without another job lined up for my sake.

    1. Colette*

      It’s time to move on- but that means job hunting while you work your current job.

      And about that current job – it’s not your job to save the world. It’s your job to do, well, your job. So go in, do what you can during your work hours, and then go do something that’s not work. Ask your manager to help you prioritize what you should work on, but don’t try to do more than is reasonable. You are literally not being paid for that.

    2. Alianora*

      I guess I can’t speak to your financial situation (and therefore whether quitting without a job is doable for you), but crying yourself to sleep every night? I’d say you’re well past the point that *something* needs to change.

      As a coping mechanism while you’re job searching, is it possible for you to detach a little from work? Instead of thinking of the unresponsiveness and bottlenecks as something someone is doing to you, maybe you could think of it as an inevitability of the job. Your managers don’t seem to care whether things are getting done or not. And you’re not being paid well enough, or given enough authority, to singlehandedly run the company… so maybe stop trying so hard. And funnel that energy into looking for a new job.

      Also, it’s up to you to gauge your chances, but is there any chance of getting a raise (maybe temporary, if you think that’ll be easier to defend) while the two empty positions go unfilled?

      (Not advising one way or the other for if you should stay or quit immediately – just offering suggestions in case you decide to stay while you’re searching.)

    3. Annony*

      Maybe for the sake of your sanity you should scale back what you are doing. Let some of the balls fall. Tell your boss that you are unable to keep doing the work of three people and ask them to let you know the priorities. When they don’t respond, let them know what priorites you have set and what won’t get done and ask them to contact you if they want to change those priorities. If things don’t get done because your boss won’t respond to your calls and emails, stop stressing about those things. See if you can mentally let go of things once you email it to your boss. And job search.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This, this, this.
        You cannot be the only person who cares there. The company will not make it. Tell the boss that you will have to go back to working your hours that you were scheduled and receive pay for, as you cannot continue on at this pace.
        As Annomy says, plan that the boss will not answer you and move to step 2 after a predetermined wait period. (A day, two days, whatever.)
        Figure out what it is going to take to help you stop crying. Keep adjusting until you get there.

  128. Justin*

    The short version of this is, I know I can’t do anything about racial microaggressions at work without coming off “militant,” but I also worry there are very few workplaces where this won’t occur, so, once this all ends and I might be able to pursue something else, I am dismayed at the likeliness I’d find a place where this didn’t happen.

    Long version:

    We’re all at home, of course, in NYC. My coworker (white woman, 50s) sent an email titled “Happy May Day.” I first thought, “is she talking about rent strikes and picket lines? Bold!” But no.

    She sent out a link to a Julie Andrews song from Camelot. (Note: I have no problems with Julie Andrews.)

    For context, we work in gov’t employee training these days, but she used to be a kindergarten teacher like 15 years ago.

    So she says she used to play this song every May. Direct quote: “It was hilarious to watch these inner city (1), millennial (2) children raised on 50 Cent (3) flit (4) around the classroom to Julie Andrews. Their parents would have been aghast (5).”

    I have so many questions.

    1. “Inner city” you say?
    2. Weird generational swipe, though not racial.
    3. You know exactly what she means by this. (50 Cent has a lot of issues but that’s not her point.)
    4. Why was it funny for them to enjoy the music and dance? Because it defied assumptions?
    5. Why assume these “inner city” parents would be “aghast” to know their children were hearing Julie Andrews?

    Now, some of you might be thinking, “that’s not racist,” and this is how I know it’s not worth doing anything about. It would take me a long, complex paragraph to explain why these sorts of assumptions and coded phrases are really demeaning (who still says “inner city?”), and I’d just come off as “angry” if I tried to point it out.

    These sorts of slights are common at my place of work (e.g. my coworker telling me how much “the brothers” enjoyed Black Panther), but unfortunately, I doubt they’re uncommon anywhere. So mostly I just vent to other places (like this), and swallow it. Especially because she’s an outspoken “progressive” who would thus not be able to see herself as perpetuating these stereotypes.

    It makes me… very glad we won’t be back in the office for a while (not that this situation is good, and I’m grateful to be paid). I’ve come to realize it’s a really detrimental environment, even if not a legally hostile one. It’s just an uncomfortable place to have to be.

    That is all.

    1. Colette*

      Thoughts:
      – what a weird thing for her to say – and for her to think. Kids generally like music – and even adults are capable of liking multiple types of music
      – I agree it’s coming from a deeply racist place.
      – if it were in person, I’d suggest asking her to explain why it was so surprising – I.e. play dumb about what she means. But that’s much harder to pull off over email/chat.

      1. Justin*

        Ah but would she have even bothered to bring it up in person? Probably not! But yes, that would be the best tactic.

        “Why would the parents be aghast?”
        “Well because they…. you know… they… wouldn’t expect to hear that type of music.”
        “I mean they have the internet, they have heard most things, probably.”
        “Yes, but.. it was just a funny story.”
        “But what was funny about it?”

        It would be hard to pull that off without looking like I’m bullying the lady though, is the thing, especially as a black guy.

        1. WellRed*

          Oh, but if you can pull it off as if you are genuinely, innocently, not sure what she means.

      2. leapingLemur*

        “Kids generally like music – and even adults are capable of liking multiple types of music” This is what I was thinking too. Kids that age are likely to be happy to dance to any music that sounds fun.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Wow, yeah, dog-whistle city there. Absolutely racist. I’m sorry you have to deal with that bull****.

    3. Pine Sol Stew*

      Wow, dog-whistle city.

      Also, I have a feeling a few parents might be aghast at their children dancing to a song called “The Lusty Month of May” that includes numerous sexual innuendoes, but I can’t imagine the overlap between those parents and the rap afficionados would be all that great.

      1. Pine Sol Stew*

        And to be clear, that’s not a swipe at people who like rap. I’m thinking the parents who would object to the song are more likely to be the really, really uptight ones.

        1. Justin*

          Yeah and she framed it as it being a “treat” (she used that word). So, “no matter how sexual this is, it is better than the rap music you are subjected to!”

          1. Pine Sol Stew*

            That’s so messed up. Like, don’t get me wrong, I actually rather like the Camelot musical, especially with the original cast incl. Julie Andrews. I’ve had that song stuck in my head all day. But patting herself on the back about getting a bunch of kindergarteners to dance to it, thinking their parents would be upset but it’s somehow ~good for them~….

            Oy.

    4. Blueberry*

      I just did a full body cringe, not least because I’m Black and love Broadway musicals and have had people boggle to my face that I can exist. I hear you so much, and I know what you mean. There’s nothing quite like a self proclaimed progressive who says utterly bigoted crap.

      I know people will advise you to push back with the Innocent Questions Routine, and if you want to go that route I am cheering you on, but if it helps, you don’t have to. Sometimes it takes more energy than it’s worth to try to get clueless bigots to catch a clue. Only you can decide for yourself if this is worth it or not.

      Either way, I send commiserative hugs.

      1. Justin*

        I have already decided to go the “vent to the internet because I don’t actually have to see her face for several more months” route.

        Worse: several people replied all to say “they don’t make music like that anymore!” Eeesh.

        1. Sam I Am*

          HAHA because wouldn’t art be better if it never changed and everything was stagnant forever! Let’s be CREATIVE and make the SAME THING FOREVER ad infinitum! I love musicals, including plenty of the old ones, but SHEESH!

          I had to pry my shoulders down from my ears reading about this, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I’m white and very suburban and I did a full body cringe too. Anyone with an ounce of awareness knows exactly what she said and all the subtext. Ugh. No advice but that’s so gross.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      YEESH. I know exactly what song you mean, and I don’t think I’d be playing that for kindergartners.
      I don’t think this coworker is quite as progressive as she thinks she is.

      1. Justin*

        OH she knew it was scandalous, and she thought it was funny to have them dance to it.

    6. Anon for this*

      I’m often astounded that I have to tell people that things they say are microaggressions, based on race, sex, disability. One of those things I didn’t realize I’d have to do as a manager. I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

    7. Fiona*

      Ugh. By the time I even saw the word “hilarious” I was already upset. Super racist, totally unnecessary, and weird. It’s so aggravating that we have to weigh whether it’s worth it to speak up about these things – because you’re right, it will get you labeled as militant and it’s an exhausting role to have to always be the person to speak up.

      1. Justin*

        And I kinda already have that rep because I spoke up about ableist and sexist jokes.

    8. LGC*

      …oh noooooooooooooooooooooooo

      I’m sorry, I just have a mental image of your coworker just opening her mouth wide open (like a nutcracker), bending her legs in some impossible position, and cramming both feet in. Because that’s what she basically did. You have all my sympathies, bro. And I hope that you find your people.

      Also, I wouldn’t say “hilarious.” She’s talking about six year olds. If you could find them in the club, the opposite gender probably wasn’t allowed in because they have cooties.

      (In the interest of full disclosure, I have yelled, “Go shorty, it’s your birthday” at my cousin when he was six. This was because he has never seen a dance floor he didn’t like. He’s sixteen now and not much has changed and I love the kid for it.)

      (I never thought I would have occasion to reference Fiddy at AAM but apparently I do.)

      1. Justin*

        I mean, the funny thing is, I bet you she only has ever heard that one song, and around that time, and just decided she didn’t approve of the hippity hop.

    9. Interested in leadership*

      I’m so sorry that your co-workers suck for staying silent. Though……its possible someone who isn’t clueless said something to her. HR?

  129. Marsha*

    Is it appropriate for my boss to ask me to update his/her CV? It seems like it is not something that would be in the scope of my duties as an assistant as it is her own personal CV.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I honestly don’t know about appropriate/inappropriate, but it seems like she would know better than you what her accomplishments are that she would want listed. Maybe point that out to her, letting her know you don’t want to leave anything out or misstate anything, but offer to proofread it afterwards. The only exception I can think of is if she’s giving you a list of info she wants added in, and she just wants you to have to deal with the formatting of it. That might be fine.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Depends on company culture and the way your job description is set up. I have had a number of personal asst / exec asst jobs where my admin duties included stuff like updating CV or professional bio, making travel areangements for family travel, submitting health insurance appeals, and all sorts of similar things.

      The only thing that might be a little wierd is the aspect of having you do the work on the company’s dime while they are job hunting on the clock. In my situations, they had their own “nonbillable admin” codes I could put in the timesheet, so that wasn’t an issue.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Conferences and other public events often ask the speakers for a CV to include in conference materials or proceedings. If the CV is for a work purpose like this, and the boss gives you the input, it could be appropriate. But if they are job hunting they shouldn’t be asking you to do it.

    1. revueller*

      Reminding yourself over and over again that it was not your fault and you are not to blame for it. That takes a long, long time though, and it may require building up your sense of self-worth elsewhere as well — whether that’s a new job, hobby, or something else.

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

    2. Type 2*

      Totally understand. But be kind to yourself! Talk to yourself the way you would a friend who’s in this situation!

      Most of us have been there. Journaling, exercise and prayer help me. Best of luck!

    3. Nynaeve*

      It can be so hard, especially since so much of our identity is tied in to work and our ability to provide for ourselves/our families! So start by recognizing that it IS a hard situation and don’t expect that you can just logic yourself into better feelings within a day or two. (Also, separately, don’t try to logic your emotions! It never works. Emotions are like hyperactive alert systems. If you try to silence them and tell them they’re wrong and shouldn’t be alerting you, they’ll start panicking and doing increasingly desperate things to get your attention. But if you pay attention to them and thank them for telling you about a problem, they’ll calm down. You don’t necessarily have to do what they want or have a strong reaction – especially if you suspect they aren’t calibrated properly – but it’s worth looking at what they’re trying to tell you and why they might be trying to alert you to it, because there usually is a reason of some kind. Sorry, long tangent!)

      I second the above commenters who recommend journaling and finding other sources of pride/identity. It may also help to know that getting laid off is incredibly common and it really is just business and doesn’t say anything about your worth as a person or even necessarily skill as a worker. I went down a rabbit hole of trying to figure out how common layoffs were and found this: https://www.bls.gov/mls/mlspnfmle.htm. Basically, there were between 12,500-20,000+ mass layoff events (more than 50 people at a company), affecting between 1.3-2.6 million people a year between 1996-2013. And that’s not including regular layoffs or people who got fired. So even when the economy was good (late 90s), at least 1.3 million people experienced a mass layoff PER YEAR. And right now the economy is *checks notes* not good. So it is really, really, REALLY not you.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I get it. Figure out what you would tell a friend. Pretend you have a good friend with the exact same name as yours, what do you tell your good friend?

      From me to you: If you had to be laid off, now is probably the most understandable time in recent history. “I was laid off during the Covid pandemic.” Everyone understands that sentence and needs no further explanation. Everyone will understand this sentence for at least the next 20 years.

      Another way of shaking off some shame is to decide to make lemonade out of those lemons you happen to have on hand. Try to redirect your thinking to what you CAN do. It’s human nature to think about all that we cannot do, so we kind of have to steer our thoughts to thinking of things we can do. The sneaky part here is that when we think of things we can do we begin to take back our power/autonomy. A lay off is a loss of power/autonomy, it’s okay to cry. And it’s okay to want your power back.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Been there twice. The hardest part for me was having to repeatedly clarify that I was not *fired*, I was *laid off*, and it wasn’t because I didn’t try hard enough or show up earlier or whatever.

      You couldn’t do anything to prevent it, but it is No Reflection On You. It’s a business decision. My current company regularly puts people out of work (and almost as regularly, hires them back). A lot of companies do. It sucks, it’s a financial hardship, it’s a career setback. But it’s not about you as a job candidate or an employee and it will not be held against you by any reasonable future employer (there are always exceptions but you can rest assured they clearly value the wrong things).

  131. Rosy-Posy*

    Do any other people out there who work in Accounts Payable find that the Accountants treat them like idiots and talk down to them? I’m looking for a new job in AP and want to know if this is just something that happens or if it’s my company.

    1. London Calling*

      No accountant would dare….:)) not if they want their month end reports on time and their expenses paid.

    2. leapingLemur*

      I’ve worked with several accountants who are nice people and (as far as I know) don’t talk down to people. Then again, that was part of the culture – treat people decently.

    3. Lowly Staff Accountant*

      Ooooooo!! I would never ever! As an accountant myself, I worked hand in hand with my AP person and actually enjoy doing AP myself….

  132. Zach*

    Hi all, quick one here. I work as what’s essentially an office manager at a professional services company. My title has shifted over the years (was originally Coordinator, now Manager, though I don’t have any direct reports). Recently one of the more junior professionals has been using me fairly extensively to coordinate calendaring for them. This is fine (though most of the others don’t) if a bit irritating and outside my job description. This person also is generally just not someone I click with. In a recent email they referred to me as their assistant to someone outside our company. This is the first time I’ve seen that and I find it a little irritating. I am not their assistant, and none of the higher ups ever refer to me by anything but my title or name. I’m trying to figure out if there’s a good way for me to address it with them, or their superior, or if I should just get over myself. My org is VERY hierarchical and the professionals are seen as extremely…divine, almost, it seems, sometimes.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Is this perhaps time to push back a little bit, since what they’re asking you to do is outside your job description? “Oh, I know I was helping you out with that more for a while, but I’m going to have to step back a little bit, my assignments with the tap-dancing llamas are picking up again and I need to focus on my own work. Outlook has some pretty good help files if you need help figuring out the fine points.” Kind of a subtle reminder that no, you’re *not* their assistant, and that your help should not be taken for granted, because it ain’t your job.

      1. Zach*

        Thank you for this! If I’m not quite ready to address that issue, do you think there’s a good way to address the assistant comment?

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I don’t know if this is a *good* way, but I think in your shoes, my personal solution might be to touch base with my own supervisor. “So, uh, in this email to a client the other day, Fergus referred to me as ‘his assistant.’ If that’s actually the case, nobody ever told me about it, and as far as I’m aware, that’s not my role and not the intention of my role, so am I missing something somewhere, or can someone have a quiet word with him and make sure he knows that he doesn’t have an assistant and shouldn’t be representing me as such, especially outside the organization, and that my assisting him with his tasks is a courtesy, not an obligation?”

          2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Or possibly, depending on the nature of your relationship (I’m not loving that word here, but you know what I mean), if you were cc’ed on the email in question, you could reply to him directly (but not, you know, the outside folks as well, just to him) to the effect of “Just to clarify, I’m not an assistant anything, my title is Office Manager for Llamas Inc, don’t want the clients to get confused!” That one might be a little dicier if you already have a slightly strained back-and-forth, but does also offer the benefit of not including higher-ups before strictly necessary. Pros and cons.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Cohort, for purposes of clarity be sure to note that my correct title is ‘manager’, not ‘assistant’ as mentioned in your email to Mary.”

      It could have been a bit of a slam but since it only happened once, you can pretend you don’t notice anything negative with this mis-title. Instead take the approach of “I am sure it was an oversight, but actually my correct title is ‘manager’.”

      Assuming the best and naming the oversight has helped me handle so many problems effectively. Some people don’t like doing this because they think it makes them look naive. That is probably not true, the recipient reads the message as, “Dang, OP caught me on that one and called me out on it.” People with no malice will apologize immediately and thank you for saying something. People with malice/ill-will are more apt to forget to say thanks and apologize. (Just general tendencies, not everyone and not all the time.)

  133. Trying my best*

    Hi everyone – hope I can get some insight or help with this. I’m struggling with basic communication at my workplace and I feel like I tend to over complicate situations by just not communicating everything with everyone.

    My tendency when I’m given work is to work on it and then provide an update/roll out the work when it’s complete. This works really well on one of my teams where they just assume I’m doing my work and leave me to it. On another team, I’m finding myself getting in messy situations where multiple people are working on things and we’re not all aligned with who does what. Or, the project manager will have someone step in to do my work when I’m already working on it, and I’m left unsure if they’re doing it because they think I need help or because they’re not sure I’m working on it.

    I’m a high performer and I’ve started to work my way towards managing projects, and I’m struggling to find a balance between owning my work and getting input from others. I had received EOY feedback that I wasn’t confident with handling things on my own (meaning I used to tell the PM my plan and ask that he agree, when really I could just implement my plan). I feel like that’s exactly what I’ve tried to do this year, but I’m excluding people from decisions or when I roll something out my PM will have issues or corrections to it.

    I feel like I’m missing some basic communication skills.

    1. cmcinnyc*

      Are you new to the 2nd team? I work with 2 teams. On one, we’re pretty seamless. On the other, no. There’s a lot of “got it,” “I saw the doc you shared,” “done,” “I will be reaching out to Mr. X this afternoon unless someone has already spoken to him,” and “Did you hear back from Mr. X?” It’s annoying, but if I didn’t do all that Mr. X would get 3 calls and get told 3 different things, and I’d be getting panicked messages “DID YOU SEE THE SPREADSHEET I SENT YOU!?!” That team has a lot of issues, communication being just one of them. But any time a team has issues, communication tends to be bad. Sometimes it’s a cause and other times it’s an effect.

    2. nate333*

      You received a really strange feedback unless you used to go to your manager with the smallest things. It’s also very strange that your PM just sends someone to help you without, if I understood correctly, asking you about your progress.

      Don’t you have regular meetings in team?

      There are differences between methodologies and projects, but normally in PM, you organize status updates with your team about once a week. Then you have bigger meetings with the sponsors (steering committees) about once a month and after major milestones. Usually there are some kind of trackers used to coordinate tasks.

      In Scrum you have short dailies during which you list what you are working on and bigger meetings.

      Many companies use some tools to coordinate work, e.g. ticketing systems where you get tickets assigned to you, so it’s clear who does what.

      All that is to secure that the role division in team is clear and no two people are working on the same task (duplicating the same work).

      If you don’t have all that, your whole organization seems to have a problem with communication.

      How can you deal with that? I would start to send my manager regular updates for example once a week, sth like:

      1. I’ve done: ….
      2. I’m in the middle of: …
      3. Next tasks: …
      4. I don’t need/ I need your assistance with ….

      Ask them whether they are ok with sending them that too. If they aren’t ask them for alternatives.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Sounds like your PMs could be doing more to foster team communication. On my projects, I hold weekly team meetings to align everyone. Tasks are clearly assigned to people. There is a schedule. Everyone knows who is working on what and when it should be done. In those weekly meetings, you can bring up any individual problems or needs. That allows the PM to get you help if you need it. There is usually a lot of informal communication throughout the week, but the formal meeting helps bring someone like yourself into the fold if it seems you aren’t the most proactive about getting input from others or giving status updates.

      You don’t need to wait for your PM to do anything, though. You can send your own weekly update to them — here’s what I’m working on now, here’s what I’m working on next, needs=none, etc. You can give them an update of your plan without asking for approval on that plan, too.

  134. nate333*

    A few weeks ago I started a new job. It’s going ok but there’s really a lot of work and I can’t imagine ever working less then 10 and more hours a day and even that only provided that I work very quickly and efficiently, which I do. It resulted that everybody in the company knows how extremely demanding the job is and that the team I’m managing is understaffed. Basically, it’s a job for two.

    Whereas I would like to stay I also think I gave them too low salary expectations. I know it’s normally expected you wait a year to ask for more pay, but I’m wondering whether that’s also true in my situation. My first performance appraisal will come at the end of the year.

    1. Reba*

      Definitely talk raises at performance review time. And definitely talk about your workload before then!! It’s not sustainable and you should get with your manager on prioritizing some things and letting others slide, so you don’t burn out. Good luck!

  135. Stargirl156*

    Afternoon everyone,
    What looks like a class action lawsuit has been brought against my company and the majority of management may be eligible to join, something about OT pay being and a misclassification of exemption. The company has asked that we wait til a response can be formulated by Monday before we do anything, It’s asking us to fill out a form to join. Realistically how could our company retaliate if the vast majority of us join?

    1. pancakes*

      Is your employer asking you to fill out a form or the plaintiffs’ law firm asking you to fill out a form? Hopefully the latter!

      1. Stargirl156*

        Plaintiff’s, after doing a bit of googling, it seems most managers are classified as exempt but under a state law your only able to be exempt if you only managerial work the majority of the day. We work in retail. So it’s going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

  136. Anony Mousy*

    My boss is giving out bad COVID info, and it’s driving me nuts… but I’m not sure if it’s something that should be addressed, or just let go.

    She’s not malicious, and she’s not unintelligent. She actually mentioned when this started that her way of coping with things like this is usually to minimize them… so that’s what she is doing. But she is doing it at staff meetings!! Last week she told an employee that is a single mom that the employee could bring her kids to the bosses house so they could play with bosses kids if they were bored… and then said “it will be okay, no one here is sick”. What… the… I think she was just trying to genuinely be nice and helpful. And I think employee knows that this was a bad idea and won’t be taking the offer, but it really freaked me out! I thought about saying something, but was frustrated and just left it alone.

    But then, this week, WHILE talking about how her job is to “protect all of us” she said “not that we really have to worry, you basically have to grind the germs into your eyes to contract anything”… What?! No… that’s not how any of this works… Again, I think she means well, and is minimizing to calm her own anxiety. But because she is our boss, I get really nervous about this having a chilling effect, other employees thinking they have to act as though this isn’t a big deal because the boss is. Or people actually believing this information as correct, because someone senior to them is stating it as fact.

    Should I say something to my boss? We have a fine relationship, but we don’t always communicate particularly well. Am I overreacting? Should I just allow my co-workers to make their own decisions and hope this doesn’t impact how they are managing through this stuff? She’s not asking us to do anything differently or putting people at risk… but… help?

    1. WellRed*

      I get why it grates, but I’d say let it go. The examples you list here are so…stupid, that I think your coworkers can see that for themselves and make their own decisions. Now if the boss were to advocate for drinking clorox, that would be worth speaking up about.

    2. TV*

      I would say don’t say anything unless she actively tries to put in place policies that could harm other people. We have field staff who were called back to the field this week and they now have an interim supervisor who…doesn’t think any of this is a big deal. He isn’t interested in doing any extra disinfecting, moving peoples desks farther apart, wearing a mask full time. Just bring people back and get back to normal like we aren’t in a pandemic. The field staff have a very different take on things and basically complained higher up. Because they brought it to other’s attention that they have a safety issue, they were approved to not go into the building, to get in their truck to do field work, then go home to do office work. An actual safety issue is actionable, telling someone they are wrong for having a (bad) opinion is not unfortunately.

    3. Anony Mousy*

      That is very helpful. thank you! I have been feeling so keyed up from this whole thing I had a feeling I made be overreacting… but I just couldn’t see it clearly inside my own head. Thanks for the feedback! I will not harass my boss for saying things that… aren’t great. But you are both right, there is nothing really actionable she is doing. I’ll save my freak outs for if they start asking us to actually DO something dangerous, not just saying ridiculous things.

      1. pancakes*

        Is there really no middle ground between saying nothing at all and “freaking out”? What would happen if you calmly pointed out, the next time she says something inaccurate, that it’s inaccurate?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Staying calm is a highly valuable skill. Here, this would look like keeping a level head while saying in an explanatory tone, that “no X is not true, actually Y is true and here’s the resources/facts on this question.”

          Sometimes the toughest conversations are when we have to make statements of the obvious. “Well, yes, 2 apples plus 2 apples does actually equal 4 apples. Here, let me show ya…..”. It can go one of two ways, the explainer can be angry that they have to get down in such detail over such a simple thing OR the explainer may have trouble holding back the laughter. Either way, it’s good to learn how to work through this.

          I’d suggest copying Alison’s tone and her step-by-step speaking pattern.

          1. pancakes*

            It could go any number of ways. I don’t see any good reason being palpably resentful or mocking the person would be the only two options.

        2. Anony Mousy*

          Normally I would. I actually think I’m usually pretty good at this type of communication. But between all our meetings now being on the phone (which if find particularly awkward in these types of group meetings) and just general stress from COVID – I’m not really feel like my normal “lets talk it out calmly” self. It would have been much more effective to say something at the time, but I didn’t, and it just kept festering in my brain that I should of and needed to say something now.

          I also was being a little silly with the term “freak out”.

    4. LGC*

      You’re not overreacting. Or rather, if you are overreacting, it’s not to her words, which are not helpful and inappropriate at the very least. I do think that…I’ll be honest, I have more faith in your coworkers than you seem to. She is still the boss, but she’s at least told you guys what she’s doing and given you permission to not listen to her.

      That said, what your coworkers might do doesn’t matter here. What you’re feeling is the main thing, and she’s regularly proposing things that make you uncomfortable (and are frankly kind of unsafe) right now. Her coping strategy is awful, at least for this context, and that’s the major issue. So you can start by saying to her that what she’s been saying has made you feel uncomfortable (and possibly pressured to comply, if that’s a thing for you).
      If that doesn’t work…I’m a little hesitant to say that you should go over her head, because this is more of an interpersonal conflict (again, your boss has already declared her opinion irrelevant to everyone), and it seems like the potential for harm is relatively low – she’s not forcing people into risky behavior, it sounds like.

  137. Nicki Name*

    Here it is, the news we’ve all been waiting for!

    “The biggest casualty will be the open floor concept, said Mark Canavarro, whose company Obex P.E. Inc. has been inundated with requests for hardware and panels to add walls to the low-level partitions on shared desk spaces. In the first 3 weeks of April, his company has done as much business as the entire first quarter of this year, he said. His inbox is overflowing with new inquiries and he’s gaining new distributors weekly.”

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-01/the-office-you-left-is-not-going-to-be-the-office-you-return-to

    1. Elizabeth West*

      The decline in transit is troubling. We don’t need more car pollution. Go away, stupid virus!

      1. Chaordic One*

        I have read that an increasing number of new cars bought for commuting will be electric, which is sort of good news, but electric cars still have to get their electricity from somewhere and you never know for sure how the electricity is going to be generated. And it still means more traffic.

  138. anon for this*

    Our head of department is a big ideas person, who tends towards committing to ideas and expecting his team to play catch up and get the work done. (he is good about recognizing effort afterwards.)
    He often has truly excellent ideas and has worked his way towards/earned this type of position, but has been in this position for at least a decade, probably multiple decades, & with the current pandemic shortening all of our timelines, it’s gone from a wee bit out of hand/inconvenient to a more impactful management issue,
    Anyways, he’d been tossing around an idea impacting the entire department for a while and then he off-handedly mentioned it externally before we had a chance to discuss it internally and the internal backlash was huge. (nothing to do with anyone’s job security or pay.) Which made many, many people’s lives (mine) quite hectic as we ran to play catch up, to communicate with people, and to both listen and find ways to let them know we were listening and incorporating feedback. And he has not gotten the enthusiastic response he was expecting, which has really dampened his enthusiasm for the project.

    I was one of the people scrambling on this one, and I’m really hoping this is a little bit of a wake-up call for him. I don’t think it’s intentional (he’s a great guy), but rather the result of a bit of a slippery slope over decades of more and more people adjusting so he can focus more and more on ideas and less on implementation.

  139. TV*

    Does anyone have any experience with partial unemployment during the time of COVID? We had layoffs at work and everyone who remains is now subject to 80 hours of furlough. From what I’m reading on my state website, it looks like I might be able to file for partial unemployment if I work half a week or take the whole week off using furlough hours but since things are changing so fast, I was hoping someone here had more of an idea.

    1. LQ*

      *depends on your state
      Generally something along the lines of if you work about half time or less you may get some benefits. If you are fully off for a week and not paid you’ll nearly always be able to get benefits. File the first week you are at least partly unemployed. You may be able to dig around enough in the laws to figure out what the number of hours is based on your income/the states rules around that. You’ll likely have both an hour limit (usually you have to work less than 32) and a wages limit (sometimes a $ amount sometimes a % of your base). If you get $1 on unemployment you get the $600 on top.

  140. RagingADHD*

    Wacky brain glitch this week:

    Had to send out a mass email newsletter requesting replies to a particular email address on my client’s domain. Tested that the mailto link created an email draft with the proper subject line, proofread text of newsletter, got approval, sent it out.

    Then when I went back to close all my tabs, realized that the draft email had a typo in the domain name. So instead of address at teapots dot org, it was to address at teapops dot org.

    Not in the text that was hyperlinked. Just in the target email address. Apparently, I typed them separately instead of copy pasting. Whyyyyyyyy?

    So now 800 extremely not tech savvy people are going to get this, and if I sent a correction they are highly unlikely to read it, and even less likely to understand it.

    Solution: I bought the domain name for teapops dot org for a year on my personal server account and set up the misspelled email account to auto-forward.

    What’s the business expense category for “covering silly mistakes”? I’ll need to write this off my taxes next year.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        OP, if this drove you up a wall, there could be travel expense involved.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I think this was a nice save on your part. But I also think you should submit it to your employer as a business expense.

      1. RagingADHD*

        No, I’m a freelancer. I can’t bill the client for my own eff-ups.

        Besides, they were running a special for $1 the first year and I’ll only need it a couple of months.. It’s nothing moneywise, I was joking about the taxes.

    3. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      There’s a twitter thread going on right now where people are sharing their IT/engineering screwups. It’s been incredibly entertaining. This story would fit right in!

  141. Seeking Simplicity*

    Sent to Allison a few weeks ago, but I’m guessing she’s super super busy. Any help is appreciated!

    I am an HR department of one for a smallish company It’s my first HR job, but I have been doing HR as a large function of my previous jobs for many years and have managed many people. Since coming into my current position a year and a half ago, I have been in a prickly situation. I manage two receptionists, one of which was hired about a year before I came on. Her job was created for her to assist the previous HR person and to partially help cover reception, but shortly before I arrived she was put at the reception desk full-time and since I came from being a fast-paced recruiter, I haven’t needed as much of her help on the HR side. From the day I walked in, this employee has told me that her job is a dead-end for her, she was offered my position and “there’s no way I would take it,” the company doesn’t treat people well, the employees are ungrateful, etc. None of which I agree with.

    On top of the general lack of interest in being here, she appears to be very resentful of the fact that I am here and that the HR person who left, well….left. She makes it very clear that the other HR person, who had started out as a receptionist at the company and was promoted, had played a much bigger part in the administrative side rather than the HR side of her job. She has told me that she feels that I don’t prioritize the receptionists (despite my best efforts to check in with her daily, provide help and support, and fix any issues that are happening promptly) and to some extent, that’s true. I do prioritize doing my primary job, which is HR, and is full-time just by itself. Feedback from my supervisor is great. They are very happy with my performance and especially with the recruiting I’ve been able to do.

    This employee does her job duties fine, but on a day to day basis she is uncommunicative, petty, negative, and at times, downright rude (eye rolling, refusing to answer emails, etc). As soon as she builds up even a couple of PTO hours, she calls out sick. She genuinely appears to not want to be at work. She took a leave of absence for personal reasons and upon returning, she literally said to me, “I don’t want to come back but my spouse says I have to for the insurance and paycheck.” She is only friendly to the employees that she likes, and rude to any of the vendors that are associated with me. I don’t take it personally because it could be anybody sitting in my seat and she would treat them the same way. It doesn’t matter who it is, they aren’t her former manager, which is who she wants to work for. She is also holding out hope that her job will go back to being fully administrative and not reception, and that’s never going to happen (yes, I’ve told her).

    Is there any hope of this working relationship succeeding? I cannot figure out how to make it work! I’ve tried being honest with her and laying it all out on the table, but she immediately turns it around on me and it’s unsettling how much anger she has about the situation so 90% of the time I just ignore her behavior and do my job while trying to not interact with her as much as possible. I am sympathetic to the fact that her job and manager changed against her will and now she is in a job that she hates and only stays because of insurance and needing a paycheck, but I can’t come to work at a job that I have worked SO hard to get and am happy to have, only to have tension and stress because of one employee.

    1. Colette*

      You’re her manager? So you need to manage her.

      You need to directly tell her that she can’t be rude or play favourites – if something is her job, she needs to do it regardless of who’s asking.

      She might get angry – that’s ok, she’s allowed to feel how she feels – but she’s not allowed to act angry, and if she does, you need to look at firing her.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yep. Behaving appropriately – that is, professionally, pleasantly and politely to everyone who comes into or calls into the office – is part of her job. This is not optional. Can she agree to that as a requirement of acceptable job performance? If yes, then you hold her to it – “This is what we talked about previously. You cannot sigh and roll your eyes and slam drawers.” If no, “Thank you for telling me that. In that case, when would you like your last day to be, because we cannot continue to have unpleasant and rude behavior like this in our office?”

    2. Documentation is your friend*

      Good start here. Are you her direct supervisor. Is she meeting expectations? I think not. There is someone out there who can do this job AND be pleasant and present. Put her on a PIP. Document and if there is no improvement its time for her to seek work elsewhere.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Having been *that person* before, I concur with the PIP. She’ll either shape up or you can ship her out.

    3. revueller*

      If I were to look at this through Alison’s eyes, I would address the performance issues first.

      What’s not performance-related:
      – Taking PTO that you’ve approved of.
      – Complaining about work. (Not ideal and definitely not professional, but I doubt you’d view her the same as someone who didn’t have the following performance issues.)

      What’s performance-related:
      – Not being communicative.
      – Not answering emails.
      – Being rude to vendors (and in that, picking favorites).
      – Being rude in general. (When you are in a customer-facing role, this is a requirement no matter how you hate it. I say this as someone who hates it and avoids it when at all possible.)
      – Taking feedback poorly and with anger.

      Assuming you’ve laid out clearly what your expectations are and where she’s falling short, you’ve made yourself clear in where you and she stand in this relationship. You understand where she comes from, and you’ve even adapted a little to her actionable complaints (i.e., providing more support). Once her job requirements changed, she had a choice here: to stay or to go. You’ve made it clear that her old job is not coming back, and she’s made the choice to stay (as far as we know). She can get a paycheck elsewhere, but you need someone to do her job fully while making it a decently pleasant environment for others. If she can’t do that, she has to go.

      If she’s not willing to change, it’s time to start a PIP. If she’s still unwilling, offer her generous severance and a good reference if you feel particularly charitable (don’t offer if you don’t think you’ll give a good one, of course). I’d also take the time to examine your emotional involvement in this. I know you say you don’t take her behavior personally, but if you’ve been walking on eggshells around your employee for a year and a half, something’s stopped you from doing more concrete management before now. I appreciate your compassion for her situation and your willingness to make this working relationship work. However, a relationship is two-sided, and she seems entirely unwilling to hold up her end. You’ll very likely have to let her go.

      1. Seeking Simplicity*

        Thank you so much for breaking that down by performance/non-performance. It does get muddy because I see her acting this way towards me, but then I will see her with other management and she is smiling and joking. So I know that it’s directed towards me and it’s hard not to take it personally. I’m getting better at it though.
        One thing I didn’t mention is that a few months after I started she because pregnant and then had maternity leave. She openly admitted that her hormones made her extremely grumpy (not an excuse) so I definitely went easy on her. When she came back from maternity leave in January, I’ve also given her a ton of leeway because I know how hard it is to come back and adjust to having your first baby. Now that a few months have passed, I’m ready to hold her accountable. Your comments have been super helpful and confirmed what my instincts told me. Thank you!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      She’s not doing the job.
      Your own words:
      she is petty
      she rolls her eyes
      she plays favorites with the employees
      she’s rude to vendors
      she has told you she does not want the job, the only thing between her and the door is her spouse
      she is disrespectful to you when you try to mend fences and build bridges

      She should have been fired 17 months ago. Seriously.

      Let’s look at “rude to vendors”. This cannot be happening. She is representing the company to outsiders here. Vendors could be deciding not to do business with your company because of HER. Meanwhile they are all gossiping to each other about that Nasty Person at your company.

      Plays favorites with employees. She represents YOU and I don’t want to put into words how you look right now to the employees of that place. It’s negative. Let’s leave it at that. Once she is gone you will have some repairing to do. Upper management may like you, but the employees look at you and see HER. They think you are okay with her behavior.

      This collection of behaviors come up fairly often. When you see it again, you will know this pattern and you will know that you must draw that hard line quickly.

      I remember my first boss saying, “Part of ANY job is our willingness to get along with others.” No one says this out loud, I guess it’s supposed to be intuitive. As we all know, it’s not intuitive for some people.

      I have no idea what framework you have to deal with. Perhaps you could consider the idea that the on-going rudeness to vendors is bad enough for dismissal. Or maybe the favoritism to certain employees grabs your attention. She’s totally insubordinate to you, she refuses to accept your authority. I’d think about what is the quickest road out of this.

      It’s stunning to me during our pandemic era that she has not softened her tone. A great many people work for lousy bosses (foolish woman here has a good boss in you, OP) and these people are bending over backwards to make sure they do not get fired now. This woman does not care if she keeps her job one more day. You cannot do the worrying FOR her.

      1. Seeking Simplicity*

        Part of ANY job is our willingness to get along with others.” I am SO going to use this in the future. That is great verbiage.
        Due to the pandemic, she has actually gotten worse. She looks and acts miserable every day. I’m going to have to have a serious talk with her next week and put her on a PIP. This can’t continue.

    5. Black Horse Dancing*

      Honestly, I kind of feel for your employee. She, like you, had a job she liked, was interested in, and a manager she enjoyed. Now her job has been changed totally to a part she dislikes, the manager who made it bearable is gone, she’s been told basically to suck it when she mentioned she wanted her old duties back, and now she even has a rough time looking for a new job because of COVID-19. None of this is your fault! (Was there a reason they took her old duties away? Was it her fault? If not, the company is more to blame because her manager should have been helping her with goals and ideas of where she might like to be. I mean, she starts work two years ago and they have changed her duties completely from ‘you’ll be doing X and some Y’ to ‘that role we created for you–welp, screw it. It’s all Y now.” — bait and switch there). SO you need to sit down, review with her all you’v noticed what needs to change, and tell her she does need to be pleasant and civil. Follow your company policies–(verbal warning then escalate?) and document. Help her perhaps see if there are openings she can transfer to. Understand her anger–your company pretty much lied to her (her position/duties have been drastically changed) but remind her she has to be professional.

      1. Seeking Simplicity*

        You’re 100% correct in the fact that my empathy for her situation has allowed it to progress to this point. I’ve been in her situation in a previous job and so I have bent over backwards to do what I can to make it a good job for her. The main conditions of the job are out of my control-they were decided before I came on and I’ve asked multiple times to give her back her original job but management won’t approve because there really isn’t a need for it.

  142. HR Bee*

    A couple weeks ago in the Open Thread, I told you all about getting “temporarily” laid-off. Well, I’m extremely blessed to have accepted a new position as HR/Payroll Manager in a way more stable industry. I went through 4 rounds of interviews with my direct boss, the CEO, and the company’s owner and have worked closely with the Recruiting Lead, who’ll I’ll be managing. Everyone has been absolutely amazing and I’m so excited. I’ll be starting Monday.

    So my question is… can I resign from my laid-off position by email? Brief reminder, I was laid-off while my less experienced, male co-worker was kept on even though he’d just started the week prior to COVID related lockdowns. Again, don’t blame him, but it made no sense from a practical work stand point. We were given no warning for the lay-off. I knew it was coming because (obviously) I had access to HR folders and saw it. My boss told me nothing and I wasn’t involved in the decision even though it was literally my job to do these sort of things. Anyway, the lay-off was billed as temporary, but with no concrete end date. We are to be given three days notice of a recall.

    Since being laid-off (on April 17), I haven’t heard a single word from anyone. No one at the company has reached out. Not my boss, not my co-worker. No one. Not even just to say, hey hows it going. Thinking of you. Nothing.

    I KNOW I should call and speak to my boss to resign, but I just don’t want to. It is horribly unprofessional to just send a nice email, let her know I’ll pick up my things and drop off theirs when the lockdown order is lifted and call it a day?

    1. revueller*

      Congrats on your new position, and I’m sorry your previous company was so uncompassionate. You were laid off. They ended the relationship. You never have to speak to them again.

      1. irene adler*

        Agree.
        They sure haven’t reached out to you in any way that makes things seem like the layoff is temporary. Did they say that they would keep in touch with you?

        So, you have been laid off. Time now to procure a new position somewhere else-which you have done. Good job! Move forward. Don’t look back.

        And congrats! on your new job.

    2. Morning reader*

      If you’re laid off, I don’t think you need to resign as you’re already unemployed. You could tell them when you go to pick up your things, or when they call you back say, sorry, I’m no longer available.

    3. Colette*

      I wouldn’t be surprised about not having heard from anyone. That’s not something people often do when coworkers are laid off – not because they don’t care, but because it’s awkward to call someone who has been laid off when you weren’t, and because you are usually far busier because there are fewer people to do the work.

      And it’s only been 2 weeks, which is not long given the general upheaval everyone is living through.

      Having said that, I think an email is OK in this scenario.

    5. NACSACJACK*

      Did you get a severance? Do they have a layoff notice period? In my state, we have a 60 day layoff notice period. In some cases, the person is required to work the 60 day notice period, but in other cases they are walked out the door that day. If we were to accept a position at another company within that 60 day notice period, we will have been considered to have voluntarily resigned our position and thus, would no longer need or get our severance package. When this was happening a lot 10-15 years ago, people were telling their new company that they can’t start as an employee until the 61st day. They could work as a contractor though. Either way they went, for a while they were getting paid double.

  143. Thoreauvian*

    I’m involved in “online experiences” these days, given that nobody can travel, let alone do personal experiences (such as tours). I’ve been having lots of issues with the company, many of which I believe are due to the fact that they had to scramble to find a way to keep themselves in business. Which is understandable; when you suddenly have to change your way of doing business, there are going to be lots of mistakes, at first.

    However. The company decided that we should charge a flat fee for all experiences. They think that this will get more people to sign up. Previously, I had a set fee per person. They told me to change it to a flat fee. So, if one person wants to sign up, the fee will be too high. If a huge group wants to sign up, the fee will be too low for those of us actually giving the experience.

    How do you suggest that I stand my ground and keep my fees just as they are? If ten or more people want to join, I deserve to be paid for the work I’m doing, which is per person, not per group.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      I know you don’t want to go into specifics (that makes things so confusing – i still don’t know what an office job entails after 3 years reading this site), but i’m really confused.

      So before you charged by head and now you have to charge by vehicle – even if that vehicle is a packed double decker bus.

      But it’s based on what the experience is as well – so that individual and that busload of people both pay $20 for an indepth tour of the Alamo. And then also with your company they could pay $50 for a tour of a patch of dirt where george washington sneezed.

      Is this only logistically possible because it’s all remote? Or are they asking for this later when you do it in person?

      I actually assume you have little room for pushback but I’d follow allison’s usual advice and reach out to the other guides.

      1. Thoreauvian*

        Reaching out to the other guides would mean that the overlords would see it. I don’t want a reputation as a troublemaker, especially since I’ve had to contact them many times over the past few months for various reasons.

        They’re doing this for the remote work, though suggestions have been made more than once to charge a flat fee, regardless of the size of the group.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Can you make it contingent – flat fee provided x people sign up? With a disclaimer that if fewer than x sign up the cost may increase or the experience may be cancelled.

      1. Thoreauvian*

        That would also involve talking to the powers that be, who think they have greater wisdom in terms of pricing than the people who actually create and provide the experiences.

  144. Retail not Retail*

    For people returning to work next week and/or opening to the public, how much faith do you have in everyone’s pandemic etiquette?

    I have none and I’ve had none. I wash my hands and keep my distance as best I can as long as I can out in public.

    My allergies got worse this spring (stupid mild winter) so I’m finding masks helpful with that and with my trademark big sunglasses, you don’t know what expression I’m making! Love it in stores for that.

    A few types of employees have to wear masks now even when we’re closed and we’re asked to wear masks in certain spaces so we all carry them.

    But a guy today who HAS TO wear one for most of his work day started a task wearing his (light paper) but it was hot and it was a lot of space to clear so by the end he had it off his face. I know he put it right back on when he went inside.

    This is all ruining the point of masks. My boss said wear em around people when they return but if you’re out of their space, you don’t have to. I hope if we don’t wear them, people won’t ask us questions out of fear. (Yeah, right.)

    Anyway we all look like we’re stealing our work vehicles so that’s fun and I hope like hell they lift mask restrictions by the end of the month bc it’s already too damn hot. I put my mask on Thursday morning all spiffy and ready to use a leaf blower look at me wow I’m productive time to take a drink…. mother-!

    1. Oxford Comma*

      I have zero faith in everyone’s pandemic etiquette. None. I have some coworkers who I expect will adhere to proper social distancing, but there are others I have no faith in. Some seem to think it’s okay to yank a mask down. That you can reuse one day after day without laundering. And so on.

      Not really excited to go back.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        I’m calling our mask requirement “security theater.” It really is all about social distancing and we can’t make the public do it!

        We also don’t have sufficient hand washing facilities right now when we’re closed but like. I can’t properly wear a mask. This one that doesn’t fog my glasses? Last weekend I got the busted mower and could only go 30 minutes with the mask on before ripping it off… and wiping the sweat off my face.

        Hand washing and staying the hell away.

      2. TV*

        I’m with you. I’m not going back to my germ box of an office if we don’t have a plan based on CDC/State guidelines and if those guidelines aren’t being followed. I haven’t sat my butt at home for 2 months in order to get sick in the second wave because Brian in accounting decided a mask was too bothersome.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Absolutely none, and people seem to be getting worse about it! Went to the grocery store and watched a woman eat a deli sandwich out of the seat of her cart, and no mask. One of the vendors had a surgical grade mask on but he’d used it so many times it was brown/gray almost sheer instead of blue anymore from sweat. Pretty sure that’s not helping anymore. Like I feel for him, probably can’t get another one.

    3. Retail not Retail*

      Ahhhhh crap i just remembered that people smoke (and vape. And chew tobacco. And spit.)

      You know who smokes a lot? Our work release crew who is “paid” in generic cigs.

      Yeah our masks will mean literally nothing. Maybe mine’ll be good for my allergies.

    4. Chaordic One*

      I went to the grocery yesterday and people were just awful. There was little social distancing. I was especially annoyed by the large families all shopping together, walking down the aisle three abreast, using 2 or 3 shopping carts, getting to the end of an aisle and having to stop and wait for a “family parade” of all the members to pass by before I could proceed. Going shopping is like playing Russian Roulette with your health.

      I don’t think that masks offer much protection to the wearer, but they can prevent the spread of virus-containing droplets from an infected wearer who coughs, someone who might be otherwise asymptomatic. Wearing a mask shows you are concerned for the welfare of other people and is a good thing to do.

      There really is something to going shopping early in the day before the stores become too crowded. If you qualify to go during the senior citizen hour, that would probably be a good time to go.

  145. Polly Darton*

    On of my coworkers fell for the scam where someone calls or emails impersonating a vendor and asks for their banking and payment information with us to be changed. In this case it was an email. So our payments to them get directed into the scammers bank account instead of the actual vendor. My coworker made the change without following the protocol: taking the information and then phoning the vendor using the phone number from our internal information to call the vendor and confirm, using a different phone than the one the call was received on (if applicable) and getting the information again in writing. Also, sending the vendor a registered letter to confirm the change. She just made the change based off the email and did not call to confirm or notify the vendor or send a letter. Two payments, a total in the six figures, were sent to the scammer instead of the bank. The change was made in February before any of the coronavirus stuff was happening here. The vendor didn’t get their payment for March or April. At first they thought it was missed or delayed because of coronavirus chaos and everyone working from home. But our records show payments were made. Eventually the vendor called and it took almost a week to unravel what happened between us, the vendor and the bank. This same coworker fell for a phishing scam and clicked a suspicious link two years ago that got us all locked out of our computers for two days. The vendor still needs their money, the money that went into the scammers are gone and now I get to work overtime tonight cleaning up the electronic paperwork mess on our end. I’m not optimistic about the company recovering money from the scammer and it was quite a large sum for us.

    1. Kau*

      Why do you have to call the vendor with a different phone than the one they called on? I can understand the rest of the protocol but this seems weird and unnecessary.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        It’s something about their not hanging up properly, to keep your line open, then when you hang up and pick up and dial the number, they’re still there to “pick up” and answer you. I don’t understand the exact mechanics but I’ve been warned before.

      2. Another Sarah*

        There is a scam where a caller pretends to be calling from the bank about a problem or fraud with your bank account. If you don’t give them your information, and you hang up to call the bank back to verify weather not it was a scam, the caller has the ability to remain on the line for a period of time even though you have hung up. They can then listen in to your call to the actual bank and get all your personal private information while eavesdropping. Using a different phone is a away for the OPs company to avoid that happening.

        1. C.J.*

          That doesn’t make any sense. You can’t stay on the line when someone hangs up on you.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            They are supposed to disconnect the call. This used to be a huge problem decades ago, but I see that it is back.
            I recently had a recorded/scammer call that I could not clear off my home home phone. I hung up but the call did not disconnect. It ticked me off.

            I don’t know how you can dial out if someone is already on the line, though.

          2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            It depends who initiates the call – if you answer the call, they have your (land)line open until they disconnect.

            Completely different on a mobile/cell though.

    3. London Calling*

      Yes, I was that employee last year. Nothing beats making you feel about an inch tall, stupid as a very stupid thing and extremely embarrassed that with all your experience you STILL fell for this than sitting in a meeting room explaining to the auditor exactly what happened so he can make a report to the Board of Directors. In this case we were lucky – the bank stopped most of the money, we recovered it and the police are still investigating.

      I get a few of these a month, mostly impersonating senior management and asking me to transfer funds. What is more than a little unsettling is not just that the scammers have management’s names, but they have mine as well, so they have clearly done their homework about our company.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      This happened to my previous company a couple years ago but we didn’t have the protocols you described either (we do now). Also 6-figures and we found out the FBI won’t investigate until it gets to be around $2million.
      We didn’t have a lag though – we found out within a day or two but just like with you the money was gone. The bank was as helpful as they could be and told us that the money was transferred within minutes. Its a good thing they did call us because we had just initiated another large payment to them and we were able to stop it in time.

  146. Marian the Librarian*

    I have an upcoming interview for an academic library. Due to the current conditions going on in the world- Should I include Covid-specific questions? (ie: What happens if the school doesn’t re-open in the fall? What measures is the library taking to ensure the safety of patrons and workers?) Should I wait to see if the interviewing committee addresses these first and then ask if they don’t?

    Thank you in advance for your help!

    1. irene adler*

      If they don’t give you any indications of the Fall plans vis-à-vis COVID, then yes, include your COVID questions as part of the “do you have any questions for us” section of the interview. Or use your questions when they broach the topic -if their answers do not address your concerns.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        It’s a great question for a townhall meeting.

        “Unreimbursed training expenses!”

        “Ah yes about those…”

  148. Insert Witty Name Here*

    My boss called my landline this morning. This isn’t a huge deal except my father, who is staying with us, answered the phone. He was confused at first and then realized who it was and handed the phone to me. (I was going to grab it, but was serving breakfast to the family.)

    Now another part of me is also wondering, how did she get this number? My application only lists my cell number and I never gave her my home phone number.

    Again, not a big deal, but sort of… odd? Is it something to bring up or should I just forget about it?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If you didn’t give her the landline number on purpose, like you don’t want her calling it, you might mention it from that angle. “Sorry, I didn’t think I’d listed that number anywhere, I usually don’t share it because we don’t usually have the ringer turned on for it (or whatever excuse), can you please stick to my cell phone in the future if you need to reach me?”

    2. Retail not Retail*

      I don’t think it’s something to bring up immediately or as a big thing, but I would be dying to know too.

      “So boss how’d you get that number? I haven’t used it in ages!” Or if you don’t have a relationship like that with boss, ask the person who would know. Oh we have everyone’s landline bc of X or – and this is super specific but life is weird – you interacted with your company as a customer/client when you only had that number. So some file with your name has your landline and for whatever reason that ended up on boss’s computer. Or! Or you called boss/work from this number and it got saved.

      (I went to a specialist last year that I saw about ten years ago. They called my mom with appointment reminders like 3 times before I said I have my own phone now. You can call me.)

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think you can bring it up in the context of you’re easier to reach on your cell. It’s a little weird that she has your number, for sure, but I wouldn’t pursue that one too much. But it’s perfectly fine to say, “Oh, by the way, it’s easier to reach me on my cell phone than on the home phone, especially now that we have more people in the house! Next time just call the cell first, please.”

    5. pancakes*

      Maybe they have the number as an emergency contact in your file, not from your application but from your hiring / on-boarding paperwork.

  149. NeonDreams*

    My company is betaing a new version of a program service representatives process payments into. My boss specifically mentioned me to participate on this feedback panel. I’ve attended one meeting relating to it and provided feedback via email on different occasions. is that something I can put on my resume? I don’t want to over inflate the importance.

    1. Annony*

      Probably not. It doesn’t sound like it took much time or that you are involved in developing the program. Testing out a new program ins’t really resume worthy unless you are applying for a job as a beta tester. You might put it on if you are involved in training others on your team to use the program.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Some stuff like this is a great story for those “tell me a time when you had to [fill in the blank].” You could put it on your list of stories that you use in interviews and use it, if it fits the question asked.

  150. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    Anybody else out there actually having a great time working from home, and hope it becomes the new normal for your workplace? For years my work friends and I have said “there is nothing we do here that can’t be done from home” and the reasons we were given that we couldn’t, magically vanished. Our company’s transition to 100% WFH was so smooth I have to think it was already in the works and this just pushed it from pilot program to full launch a few momths/years early.

    If I’m given the option to WFH forever I’ll take it (maybe with one day a week in office for meetings?)

    Anybody else getting a solid silver lining here?

    1. London Calling*

      Our management was solidly against WFH until we went into lockdown and are re-thinking that and saying that they might be able to be more flexible, but personally? no. I have a one bedroom flat, I can’t get away from paperwork/laptop/big printer in the corner of the sitting room, and I have to be very disciplined to keep to office hours and log off to have that break, however tenuous, between work and not-work. Add to that I don’t have a desk or proper chair and for weeks I have been operating from my sofa with my laptop on my lap and everything takes three times as long. One or two days a week? maybe. Full-time? definitely not. I like the space between work and home that commuting gives (depite my current commute being a pin.)

      I can’t help thinking that the companies that claim to be converted to be WFH will be cynically banking on employees allowing work to bleed into leisure time (because ‘It’s there, I might as well do an hour or two at the weekend’) and getting a lot more bang for their buck. Another reason I wouldn’t do it.

      2. Seven If You Count Bad John*

        Work doesn’t bleed into home time for me because it’s a call center. I’m either On or Off, with regulated hours. And I have a designated Spot for the work stuff. I hear you on the rest though, I definitely have teammates who want to come back into the office! My supervisors sometimes WFH with laptops and I asked once how on earth do you manage without your full size setup (we have dual monitors and full size keyboards) and she said it’s a massive PITA. I would not want to have to do what I do without my full size setup.

    2. TV*

      I’m so down to keep working from home. I hope we can get more concrete language in our union contract to make telecommuting actually happen more often.

    3. Megumin*

      I work at a large state university, in IT. We already had a lot of people WFH and were working on our departmental guidelines so the entire department could WFH a certain amount per week. So I know my dept embraces WFH, but I’m really excited to see the rest of the university embrace it. Higher ed has always been stingy about WFH, but there are just soooo many good reasons to do it. We were able to transition the rest of the university to WFH fairly well. I know WFH would make a huge difference in job satisfaction for many of the lower-paid employees – advisors, admin assistants, admissions – especially since space and parking are a huge issue (and always will be), and anything the university can do to improve their morale would be great. Especially since we are now in a hiring freeze and doing everything everything we can to cut budgets without laying off people.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      I’d prefer a mix of the two. The nature of my job means I need to be in the office most of the time (speaking of normal time here, not COVID time) but not having to commute is huge. I’ve already suggested to my boss that I might want to keep teleworking one day a week, or every other week if he prefers, once we are all back in the office.

    5. Insert Witty Name Here*

      I think that I would go crazy wfh permanently, but once or twice a week would be nice. I don’t miss Evil Judgy Coworker who still rolls her eyes when I talk on Zoom meetings. I miss seeing others though.

      1. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

        I feel the same. For whatever reason, I find this job I love now creating so much more stress for me while WFH. Maybe if I lived in a nicer apartment I’d like it more? I don’t know.

        For whatever reason, I need a clear line between work and home If I had a shed, garage, or separate office with a door at home, that would help, I’m sure.

    6. Emma*

      I worked from home fulltime for 8 years, and had only been back at a working-in-the-office job for a year, so I have been totally fine! Working from home was already normal to me, and I have been able to help coach my team and assist my colleagues in making the transition (except for 1 business unit where the employees travelled a lot we had no WAH program at all before early march). Also I hate commuting…a lot, and the extra sleep is making me downright upbeat.

      (It helps a LOT that I don’t have kids, all respect to those who are doing this with little ones underfoot).

    7. Choggy*

      I love it, my stress has gone way down, have no commute (usually 45 or more minutes each way) and I can concentrate again! I hope this becomes part of my regular schedule.

  151. Paris Geller*

    Okay, I have an ongoing issue, but it’s become more apparent in this current situation. I am a librarian in a public library system in a mid-size city. We have multiple branches. We have a business management assistant who does things like order supplies, keep track of work orders of things that need fixed, etc. We can order some supplies for our individual branches through vendors we already have accounts set up with, but for many one-off items we have to go through this particular person. She is very busy and I recognize that. Ideally, her job should probably be done by two people, but it’s not. However, whenever I request supplies we want or worse, NEED, it is an impossible task to actually get her to order them.

    I want to emphasize that I believe I’m doing everything right: We make sure to have six months of our normal supplies all hand at all times so we don’t tie her up with emergency requests, I submit my request WEEKS in advance of when I actually need them, I follow up if I haven’t heard from her after a week or so, etc. And yet it still sometimes takes MONTHS to get what we ordered.

    Again, I recognize she’s busy, but at some point–well, we need these things. They’re not optional. Again, if we have a vendor set up where we each branch can order items we go that route, but it’s not always an option. This position is the only one with that authority, and because we’re a municipality, they really try to limit the amount of people that have the authority to order items. I’m at a loss as to what I can do to make sure we actually get the things we need.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The last time I hit a setting like this it was because she was waiting for a larger order. Others also placed orders randomly and she would wait until she had “enough” for one order. She did this because, she was busy and that was true, too. sigh. This is how mundane, everyday stuff gets marked “urgent”.

      Have you talked to her about this?

    2. revueller*

      Is Bottleneck onsite at your branch or does she work for the whole system? Do you have a head of your branch? If the assistant were onsite, I’d go to her directly and talk through how you both can fix this. Basically, treat the delays as a problem that’s separate from her capabilities as an employee. It may be that she’s horribly, horribly negligent, but it could also be that she’s genuinely swamped and has 72,361 priorities before your supply requests. It’s better to assume the latter if you don’t have more information about why it’s taking her so long, and you might end up with a win-win situation.

      If she’s not onsite or she’s unwilling to hear you out, I’d go to the head of your branch with documentation. “I ordered these supplies on X date, I finally heard from Bottleneck on Y date, and we got the supplies on Z date. I recognize that Bottleneck is very busy right now, but this seems like an excessively long time period for this process to take. Should it take this long?” Maybe your manager will say this is a reasonable amount of time. Hopefully, though, they’ll recognize the problem, and you’ll do the same brainstorming with your manager that you’d do with Bottleneck: you treat the delays as a separate problem that needs to be solved for everyone’s sake, including Bottleneck’s.

      1. Paris Geller*

        She works for the whole system. I actually truly don’t believe she’s negligent, which is why I don’t know how to fix the issue. I know for a fact she’s swamped and her job should probably be two or at least one full-time and one part-time, but we’re all trying to work with what we have. I will brainstorm with my manager though, and maybe we can come up with something that works for everyone.

  152. Not So NewReader*

    Questions about libraries and 3D printers.

    If anyone who works in a library has a 3D printer, I would like to hear about it. What do you use it for? What has gone well, what is a PITA? How did you decide to get one? How much space does it take up? Do you limit the use of it to certain designated people? What kind did you get? Okay, I guess tell me anything you feel comfortable posting online. I’d definitely like warnings of what not to do so pitfalls can be avoided. And I’d also like to hear where a good choice was made and people are happy with the choice.
    Thanks in advance!

    1. Retail not Retail*

      colorado state university’s library has a 3d printer – I bet they’d love to answer some questions!

      The city library there might have one by now – poudre river public library.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      Libraries typically call the area that equipment goes into “Makerspaces”, even some pubic libraries have some. So you should be able to search online for libraries with that kind of programming, and I’m sure the contact info people will be happy to answer questions.

    3. Thankful for AAM*

      We have 2 at our library. They are about 2 feet square. We keep them locked in our makerspace room.

      We offer 2 classes to patrons. An intro class where we teach them how to use it and the software used to design for it. Then we have open labs where they can design. Or they use the software at home to design. Once they have a design, it gets emailed to a specific staff member who then does the printing. It can take 24 hours to print the small designs we allow. Thats a drawback, getting them all printed is a lot to manage. Patrons come a week later to pick up their work.

      We also run out of the spools of material. Not sure why ordering is an issue but I think it is bc our budgets are so tight. It looks like plastic but is some safer? cornbased material.

      I think you have to think about where it will live, where you will store the supplies and what they will cost, who will learn how to use it (and who will not), how you will pay for it all, what you will do when it gets out of date (ours are getting old and lack features), and most importantly, what is your reason for getting one.

      I’m not that impressed by the things ppl make but they seem to like it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ohh, thank you so much.

        Yeah, I was looking at the things people made and I can see some use but I am not that wowed.

        If the machine is printing then probably it can’t be left unattended, right? So in your example someone would have to be there with it for 24 hours?

        I saw where one library was making Covid masks. But the machine should have more purpose than just masks for the amount of time/money that needs to go into it. The article said it took 3 hours to make one mask. I am not sure if this is even worthwhile for us- because of costs and availability of people to attend to the machine.

        Does your machine have to be vented to the outside?

  153. Orange You Glad*

    Does anyone have any advice for dealing with 3rd party services during the COVID-19 shutdown? One area I’m responsible for is compliance related. We hire a 3rd party firm to file the actual compliance documents (they are regular filings – we provide the data monthly and they handle the filing with various government entities). The due dates for about 90% of these filings are unchanged since our company doesn’t qualify for the extensions available (we’re technically an essential industry and our business operations has not really been impacted by the shutdown).
    I’m trying to be flexible and compassionate when working with our 3rd party reps since they are WFH right now, but since the shutdown they have not been very communicative and have made numerous (avoidable) errors. These errors cause penalties and extra administrative work to clean up. Our city has been shut down for 6 weeks now and I’m not feeling so forgiving any longer. Is it too harsh to expect them to fulfill their agreement? If they can’t I can make other arrangements but if they would just communicate better I wouldn’t feel as frustrated.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      From what I have seen with local government and NPOs they simply ask the third party to pay the fine/penalty if a report is late or in error because of them. I don’t think that is harsh, I think it’s pretty normal. This third party knows that your upstream is ridged/strict so no surprise there. Perhaps the third party has contracted out some of the work and that subcontractor would be of help?

      If your boss/group decide that they can’t ask the third party to pay the fine/penalty then perhaps they can say that they will pay it this time, but it if happens again they will ask the third party to contribute 50%.

      You may need to check with legal to see what you are allowed to do also. Additionally, sometimes lawyers have a good solution they have seen used elsewhere.

  154. I'm just here for the cats*

    What’s a good out if the office message when no oneis on the office anymore. We are all still working but due to COVID we are WFH. I will be taking some time off next week and I need to set an up my out of office message. Normally I say somet like this:

    Hello,
    I am currently out of the office and will return (date). I will respond to your email at that time. If you need immediate assistance please contact the following (contact info for department a and department b.)

    Thanks.

    Does it make sense to still say out of the office or should I say something else. I don’t want to say I’m not working, as that doesn’t seem very professional.

    Any ideas

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think this sounds fine. When I get a recording I don’t want to spend a long time listening to the recording. I either want to just leave my message or find out where to actually call. So explanations of not working or WFH, etc. is okay to skip in my mind.

    2. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

      I took a week of vacation time and set my automated response to say “I’m currently unavailable until ____. Please contact ___________ for any urgent issues or time sensitive tasks.”

    3. Emma*

      “Out of office” is not always a literal thing! I have used an OOO message on my email/voicemail when I was working but in a meeting/training/other event on-site, for example. It’s just a polite way to say you are not looking at your work email/answering your work phone. You can say “out of the office” if you like, or on vacation/PTO, or just “Unavailable”, it’s all fine.

  155. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

    Working from home feels like an invasion of my home life.

    Work-life balance feels like it doesn’t exist anymore even when I have clear hours I work and hours I don’t work. Note, I’m very happy to have a job that I can work from home and stay employed during this crisis.

    Am I wrong to say “Please tell me I’m not alone in feeling this way” ? Is this just a phase in a long process, like grieving or something? What’s wrong with me? It’s a big stressor to see my kitchen table covered with all of my office electronics.

    In the past, I wasn’t fond of working from home but would do so when I needed to for short spurts, just using my personal laptop. I’m fine with other people working from home and know sometimes we all get more done working from home with less interruptions.

    Now, the job I once loved feels much more stressful, having to do it from home. I worked very hard in the past to separate work life and home life. I don’t feel like I can ever fully relax now.

    1. revueller*

      I feel the exact same way. WFH when it’s not a choice is stressful as shirt. I mentally compartmentalize the spaces where I work/live/sleep/relax, and WFH has disrupted all of that.

      I don’t have any advice, just commiseration.

      1. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

        Thank you. It helps to know someone else understands what I’ve experiencing.

    2. Kathenus*

      You’re not alone. I read something recently where someone said that it’s not like working from home, but more like living at work. So it’s definitely something that many people are feeling.

      1. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

        Yes, that is exactly how it feels. That instead of Working From Home I’m actually Living at Work.

        Three times in my life I actually had jobs where it was normal for all or nearly all employees to live on-sight. Yet those situations were not as stressful as the current situation because the housing and work spaces were in separate locations. Then there were “days off” where workers could and most likely would leave and go camping or something. There were options to get away from it all. With Shelter in Place, we are stuck.

      2. London Calling*

        Amen to that. Add to that the determination my employer to wring as much work as they can out of a captive workforce while the going is good and I cannot WAIT to get back to the office and dump all this paperwork where it really belongs.

    3. Kettricken Farseer*

      For me, it helps that I bit the bullet and got a desk/chair/lamp that is self-contained and a separate part of my living space. I also had to tell myself to stop working at the end of the day and fully shut down my laptop (and close it), turn off the desk lamp, push in my chair. So there’s this mental shift between ‘work’ and ‘home’.

      1. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

        That sounds like it might help. I have been discussing rearranging furniture with my family and hopefully we can find something that helps. Thank you for the suggestion.

      1. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

        Thank you for sharing that. It helps to know I am not alone in this experiment/experience.

    5. Jean (just Jean)*

      Another reader here who agrees with you. Yes, I’m grateful for employment and the chance to unload the dishwasher when I take a break, but I miss being able to leave work at work and home at home.

      1. I'dRatherBeInTheOffice*

        Thank you for sharing that. I feel the same.

        Yet, I feel guilty for unloading the dishwasher. I feel like I’m taking advantage if I run a load of laundry. I beat myself up for feeling this way because I should be grateful I can still work from home, etc. etc. It’s a weird mind-set for me. Totally unnecessary. But it’s because of like you say: leave work at work and home at home. It took me years to get to that mindset in a healthy way. I’m really struggling to find a way to do this now that I’m WFH.

    6. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I suspect many if not most teleworkers have an inverse relationship between the size/# of rooms in their living quarters and the extent to which they feel WFH intrudes on their home life.

  156. All Data*

    I recently had a call with a well known organization, “CC”. It went exactly how I imaged it would go, haha, but I’m still a little disappointed and wondered if I could have fought harder for the things we need.

    We deal with teapot data. I work at the state level and while federal requirements on teapot data are standardized, there is a lot of wiggle room. There are 150 data points that you could send us, but orgs are only required to send 50. The federal government wants the states to work with orgs to gather 100 points, but will not make the other 50 points required (at least at this time).

    I reached out to all teapot companies and gave them feedback on their data, where they could improve, and requested they send the 100 data points. Most were receptive and happy to do it. CC, the biggest, baddest B, was not too keen. Some there are no federal requirements to do so, there is no reason for CC or anyone to send the additional 50 data points. I used points such as “it’s important for tea drinkers and tea makers to know this

    1. All Data*

      Ugghhh, where did the rest of my q go?!
      —

      Basically, has anyone been successful in convincing X to give you something because it’s “the right thing to do”? What was the selling point that did it?

      I could have used more “emotional points” to convince CC to give us the data. However, as a state government I choose to stick to the few hard facts.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Allow me to paraphrase a Milton Friedman quote: you don’t accomplish good things by getting good people in charge. You accomplish good things by rewarding bad people to do good things.

        Collecting, curating, and sending off those extra data points is not free for the company — someone has to be paid to do it. And a big company may have a much harder time getting those data points than a smaller one; I worked for one of the big multinational banks that was still using software from the 70s to manage its billions. They would have had to spend hundreds of Cobol programmer man-hours to write a new report for a new government requirement, and they sure weren’t going to do that for a mere optional request. Now I work for a small company where I can pull all sorts of information with very little effort from a modern SQL database.

        So put yourself in their shoes: what is the benefit of giving you that data? Would it help create more customers? More intelligent regulations? Lower wasted effort? One thing is for sure: they’re clearly not interested in doing it from the goodness of their hearts.

  157. Cannot have the Mango!*

    So anyone else ever get sabotaged by their SO’s Boss? Here’s my story.

    Two years ago I interviewed for a job with a fairly prestigious local company. The pay and benefits were great, they seemed to like me. Problem was rotating 8 hour shifts, 24 hour operations, and inflexible start times. I had to be at work anytime I was scheduled, and would have no say over when that would be.

    We are a one vehicle family, and there is no public transportation in my area. Some shifts posed direct conflicts my husband’s, where we would have had to take turns being stranded at work, or one of us left without a way to get there.

    My husband’s job and company at the time paid him more, so I declined the offer and took a job to work with his schedule.

    Well, several months ago my husband decided to leave that job. He applied for, and was offered, the position I previously declined. He accepted the job on the assurance that the company could accommodate our situation. Despite everything, I decided to be hopeful.

    Once my husband went over to the new position, he was asked if he thought I might reconsider joining the team. My answer was no.

    While we have occasionally worked for the same companies, we have always been in different departments with different supervisors. Scheduling only worked because the bus ran on days we couldn’t ride together.

    At this job, unless we are assigned different sites (with no way to be on time for both), we cannot be assigned the same shift. Nor could we be promised the same days off as long as we were there. With this built – in conflict, it is not doable.

    So flash forward to now: neither carpooling or ride sharing are permitted and the taxis have been put on ice. Suddenly, my husband is “needed” on the days that I have to work.

    While my husband’s direct supervisor has been helpful, The Big Boss, is constantly making revisions so my husband has to work on days when he was never historically available. Days that, I need the car. The Big Boss has been told this could cost me my job, but this keeps happening.

    Then, the other day, my husband was scheduled for the early shift. He arrived, clocked in, and two minutes later – Whoops! – No one bothered to tell you?

    Schedule was changed just after he’d gone home the previous week. Sorry! Clock out, and come back in Eight hours. Ten+ dollars of fuel, wasted, no apology. Doubt we can make them pay him for it either.

    I have told more than one person I suspect my husband and I are being sabotaged. Crazy talk right? Who would go through the trouble? Unfortunately, nobody who works for this company is surprised.

    1. Cannot have the Mango!*

      Omigod! I had no idea what I’d written was that long. I was using my phone to type and didn’t see. I am sorry :(

    2. Annony*

      I think it is more likely that they simply don’t care than deliberate sabotage. Having a company be that cavalier with my schedule would drive me crazy even without the transportation issues.

    3. Black Horse Dancing*

      I agree with Annony. They simply don’t care. They want him at a specific time and that’s it.

      1. Cannot have the Mango!*

        If they had not, in the past, already tried to poach me, I would be more apt to believe it was just plain disregard.

        But before COVID was happening, my husband’s co-workers told him management was working on trying to hire me.

        Of course, they wouldn’t be able to change anything that would actually make it so I could work there. But as soon as I’m available, I should really let them know, because they could really use me!

        Now that I am about the only person they could easily bring onboard in these times (we live in a travel restricted rural area) I fear they view my current job as an obstacle to be overcome.

        Even if this is careless indifference, it sure seems like a plot.

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      You know the old saying about not blaming on malice what can be attributed to stupidity?

      Well, deliberate indifference is first cousin to stupidity.

      And no, your post’s length is not a problem. Your paragraph breaks really help.

      Fingers crossed for you and your husband…especially when the employer doesn’t bother to tell your husband of the shift change and won’t just let him work the shift he arrived for.

  158. The masked llama*

    Warning for everyone who hates forced teaming… virtual escape rooms now exist! You know, because quarantine isn’t bad enough, we have to virtualize forced teaming… Our team eventually decided not to pursue one after all, but wow that was close.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      Oh no my cat broke my laptop!

      Oh it’ll be fine for tomorrow’s meeting. Yes I have a cat are you calling me a liar?

      Or

      Oh no! We lost power! Whole neighborhood’s down! Squirrels attacked the transformer!

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Something something it’s an actual issue in Guam that snakes enter the transformer and kill it and themselves because the male brown tree snake thinks the vibrations are the sexiest snake on the whole island.

        1. Retail not Retail*

          I can’t stay to escape the virtual escape room there are snakes in my real room!!!

  159. IrishEm*

    Good Things!

    So, got enrolled in a customer experience course that is in high demand and work is going to pay for it! I start this week and it’s ALL online, so no awkward how-do-we-social-distance this questions!

    Fairly close to getting a rescheduled date for my first QFA exam which should be in the next few weeks while they do the whole how-do-we-social-distance-the-exams of an otherwise all online course.

    Sent in an application for a job that would be mostly what I already do but with a title bump and about an extra for grand p.a. if I get it. Right now I’m planning my interview attire because the thought of Zoom interviews is giving me the Fear.

    1. nep*

      Nice, IrishEm.
      You will be great on Zoom. Don’t breathe anymore life into the fear.

  160. stitchinthyme*

    So I’ve started job-searching (though I acknowledge that coronavirus is going to make it more difficult — but I’m currently still employed so there’s no huge rush), and I’ve noticed that online applications always have a form asking if the applicant has any disabilities. Supposedly this is because there are incentives for hiring disabled people (I’m in the US).

    My dilemma: I technically have a disability, although thus far it has not interfered with my ability to do my job, nor have I needed any special accommodation. (I’m hearing-impaired, but with a cochlear implant and a hearing aid, I can carry on a conversation, use the phone, etc. Unless you saw the CI or HA, you might not know I had a hearing problem — I was not born deaf so I speak normally.) So on those “do you have a disability” forms, I’m never sure what to answer. “Yes” feels incorrect because my hearing issues don’t really impact my job or require any accommodation, but “no” feels like a lie.

    So I’ve been selecting the “Prefer not to answer” option. But I’m just wondering if this is the best way to go. I’m a little worried about bias (conscious or unconscious) if I said “yes” — but I also wonder if choosing not to answer would be interpreted as “yes, but I don’t want to tell you about it”.

    Thoughts?

    1. KoiFeeder*

      As a fellow disabled person, I would probably say no on those as well. I absolutely do not trust people to be responsible with that information.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t trust this either. These are often the same places that, for an office job that mainly involves sitting in front of a computer, they’ll add in a job “requirement” that you be able to lift up to 50 lbs.

    2. Anon For This*

      I agree with the above. I got yelled at in an interview for not disclosing it on my application. My response was it does not interfere with my ability to do the job. He interpreted it as lying and reflective on me as a person. I have a very negative opinion of the company as a whole due to that experience.

  161. Thankful for AAM*

    This might be addressed someplace but how are your workplaces handling equity with WFH options?

    We have just 5 laptops and about 80 employees in a library. Many could work from home, at least part of the time but we dont have enough laptops to allow everyone to WFH so no one can WFH.

    I see other libraries making similar decisions. Staff who reshelve books cannot WFH so no staff can WFH.

    Is that really equity?

    1. Retail not Retail*

      For me, it comes down to pay.

      My mom is a special ed/kindergarten assistant. She cannot work from home. She is getting paid her full check for the entire school year and all the school employees are.

      At my job, we laid off all the seasonal staff immediately. Everyone else has been getting their normal check no matter what hours we work. The majority of the staff cannot do work from home and we’ve been working fewer hours to minimize contact with those who have required essential work that necessitates the 40 hours. The office people? Home.

      It would be grumble grumble if those who could work from home got paid while those who could not got furloughed. At my job, I guess that would look like a reduction in hours for us while the salaried computer people did their work. At my mom’s job, it would be completely possible and I would be up her union’s BUTT over that.

    2. Colette*

      I think it’s reasonable to say “people who do job X can work from home, people who do job Y can’t due to the nature of the job”.

      But the technology makes it more difficult, assuming only the people who are working are getting paid. How do you choose which 5 of your 80 employees get paid?

  162. London Calling*

    Late question and a thought that drifted into the old noggin this morning – could the experience of WFH under lockdown and being as effective as possible be worth mentioning on a CV and if it is, how would you do it?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Unless you were involved with transition planning or problemsolving for a team or the company as a whole, no.

      If you just did your job, then you did the same as everyone else.

      It could generate some good answers to interview questions about dealing with difficult situations, though.

  163. Beth*

    am hoping some commenters here will give their two cents on a situation I am facing. I have anxiety and want to know if the red flags I am detecting are real or not.

    Unemployed three months here. One of my first interviews was with a small bathroom refacing business. Interview went well, I thought for sure I would get the job. Told at that time the person previously in the role didn’t work out due to lack of catching on to the role. They worked there a year.

    Long and short, I didn’t get the job; they hired someone else, was concerned I would be bored and was overqualified for the role. I was upset , but thanked them for their time.

    Flash forward two months later, they called me last week saying the new person they hired didn’t work out; they made a huge mistake ; was I still interested?

    With trepidation in my heart, I said, yes, as quite frankly, I had gotten the job out of my system and was kind of done with it, but I also knew I needed a job so I thought let’s see what they got to offer and we will go from there. Believe it or not when I entered the building a lot of my anxiety melted away, mainly because I think the environment would be good for me. It is a small office and it is quiet, not a lot of foot traffic. After a thirty minute refresher interview, “Tom” the production manager offered me the job. Gave me some pre hire paperwork. I said a tentative yes, contingent on the job offer. I tried asking him if the Salary was still the same as what had been previously advertised. He said I would need to speak with the owner. So right after the interview, I emailed both Tom and the owner saying I was definitely interested, couldn’t wait to start, but also needed a formal job offer before giving my formal approval and turning in the paperwork. That was Thursday sad it is now Saturday. I know ir is early, but I haven’t gotten so much as an email from either them saying anything is in the works etc. Also when I had emailed the owner early this past week to confirm the interview appr, ir bounced back. I wanted to make sure he had gotten my second email , so I sent him a quick text. This is not anything I normally do. He came back and said he would hate to check his spam folder, but no he hadn’t received anything from me, but w no comment about an offer being on the way, welcome to the team. Nothing

    Am I worried for nothing? I am obviously still applying else. My unemployment runs out in two weeks

    2. New Senior Manager*

      I would have some anxiety over this as well. Not much, but some. You’ve done your due diligence and may need to let it go at this point. Continue your job search. There are jobs out there and people are hiring. I’m proof of that as I was just hired for a great senior position. If you happen to hear back from the owner with an offer, go from there. But tell yourself it’s over and you’re moving on. Your emotions will follow. Wishing you the best!

    3. nep*

      Agree with New Senior Manager. You can’t know for sure what’s going on at that company. I think at this point there’s nothing to do on your end. Keep applying elsewhere.
      All the best. You will land a job.

  164. nep*

    Don’t know whether anyone browses this thread much the second day…
    Anyway, anyone here work in and/or manage a gym?
    I taught a class at a gym where group ex was quite popular, and I’m a little surprised the place hasn’t gotten on the live-streaming bandwagon yet. Seems to me that’s where fitness is for the near to medium term (perhaps beyond). The gym offers links to workout videos they have produced, and they add more content to that site fairly regularly. (And granted there are countless workouts online.) But I think that for people who were used to doing group ex, there’s a lot to be said for having a Time To Get To Class. Class is at a set time and so there’s something powerful about the immediacy/motivation of that.
    What do you all think? What’s been your experience as either a gym manager/staff or a gym goer?

    1. Beth*

      I work out with a friend. If I had to do exercise on my own, virtually, I would stop rather quickly.

      I posted above you. Could you give your thoughts on an issue I am having?

  165. Complainasaurus Rex*

    Longtime lurker/occasional poster. Just wanting to vent though I am curious what other people’s thoughts are on what’s going on with this and if there’s any way to push back verbally.

    So I am a support worker. My client has high needs (needs help with everything and can’t be left alone) and is mostly cared for by their parents with me as a distant second. I take care of them during the day on weekdays while their parents take care of them on weekends and at night. I really like my job for various reasons, have been doing it for 10 years, and am not planning to ever leave. And I have quite a casual/familial relationship with my client and their parents, given the nature of the job.

    By US standards, our state has really good services in that there are a few sources of funding to pay for care. My client’s parents also report me as working more hours than I actually do so that I make about $100 more a week. (Basically I work about 6-7 hours a day but they’re supposed to get funding for 7-8 hours a day, so they report me as working that much.)

    The thing is though that because our area is really expensive and the pay for support workers is relatively low, the average studio apartment literally costs more than I make in a month. I mean, there’s other things I could compare it to, but having my own apartment is the only expensive thing I care about—I really don’t like living with roommates and it’s frustrating that this won’t ever change. I do have a plan to save enough money to rent an apartment someday but my plan is pretty harebrained and a long way off.

    The other thing is that I’m not officially supposed to get any vacation, so my client’s family will sometimes let me go on vacation but just report it as if I was at work. However I obviously can’t have time off very much, because it’s hard for them to take care of my client with no break.

    I don’t blame my client’s parents for the money thing or the vacation thing, but my client’s dad (who is the one who handles the logistics) does this thing that drives me nuts. Basically if I either ask for something, or express frustration at my financial situation, he insists that I actually have it really good.

    Like, I don’t! It’s not their fault that they can’t give me more, but like…I just don’t?

    First of all, he’s started to have this attitude that if he has reported me as working more hours so I get paid more, that just sort of automatically covers it if I have to work extra time. Without this being discussed beforehand. They used to pay me in cash if I worked extra, but they had been reporting me as working a bit more because another occasional worker stopped coming so they were giving me her hours—which is nice of them and everything, but we never agreed that this money meant I wouldn’t be paid for working extra, and he even admitted that he allocated the money to me because it was there and shouldn’t be wasted. He just announced “oh well, you got paid extra recently, so that covers you staying late, right” after I had stayed late.

    If I’m annoyed at how relatively low my pay is or that affordable housing ordinances always focus on other professions like teachers, nurses, etc., but never support workers, he is like, “Well, it’s not so bad for you!” and either brings up recent wage increases for support workers, which are still very low relatively, or brings up the fact that they report me as working extra hours so I can get paid more, which honestly doesn’t make a big difference.

    I really care more about time off than I do about money. In the past I’ve initiated conversations about wanting to agree on how much time off I can take a year because we hadn’t really talked about it and it felt somewhat touch-and-go and like I didn’t know how much time I could ask for. I also often feel that my client’s parents are off doing other things at the time my workday ends and aren’t ready to take over for me, so I end up staying late—this can be really annoying because if I have plans I have to actively wake them up from naps or interrupt things they’re working on so I can leave. (And when I ask, they openly refuse to be proactive about coming and taking over from me, because they don’t want to lose their extra resting/work time in the event that I might want to hang out at the house longer, which I do some nights. They are older and retired and have some physical issues, and I’m not unsympathetic that they want time to rest, but it’s really frustrating sometimes.)

    Anyway, basically in any conversation about wanting more explicit time off, wanting to leave work at my actual designated leaving-work time, etc., my client’s dad has to bring up that I get paid for extra hours. This really really irritates me! First of all, you can’t just dump money on someone and then retroactively say that the money was for something. Second of all, money just isn’t equal to vacation or free time. And third of all, I am low income for where I live and the amount of extra money I get is small!

    Last time we had a big conversation about time off, this was getting brought up so much that I looked up the living wage for my city and showed him that I make below the living wage, and even make less than the typical person in my line of work. His response was, “well, this is someone who works 40 hours a week, but you work less than 40 hours a week.”

    ??? So? I don’t work less than 40 hours a week out of personal preference—that’s based on the times they want me to be there and I would not care if it was longer. I still am occupied during the day on weekdays, so it’s not like I have significantly more free time to get a second job or pursue hobbies and social things. Working less than 40 hours doesn’t benefit me at all.

    Why is he so weird and defensive about this? It’s not his fault that I get paid so little, it’s a frustrating situation that we’re all in together. I also find it to be a weird guilt-trippy bad habit that he brings up the extra money when I ask for things, but don’t know how to call him on it without getting quite angry, because it honestly really pisses me off. :/

    Thanks for listening.

    1. New Senior Manager*

      I’m sympathetic to everyone involved here, but you asked for advice so I’m gearing it towards you. Stop complaining about your financial situation to this family. Neither of you have clean hands so he’s really hitting you over the head to shut you up when you complain. I hear you when you say you love your field and don’t want to leave it. Great. I recommend you seek out another family and keep everything on the up and up even if you have to take 2 jobs to get your own place. Or. Have a talk with your current parents telling them you appreciate what they did to help you but you should not have accepted that, that you want everything calculates legitimately now, and going forward you want to renegotiate rates. I hope everything works out for you. I’ve never wanted roommates. It’s not for everyone. And there were times I worked 3 jobs in order to afford my own place. I was rarely home, but when I was, it was mine all mine.

      1. Complainasaurus Rex*

        Thanks for replying but some of this doesn’t really apply to my job category…like, we can’t “renegotiate rates,” the rates the state pays for my work are what they are, and are the same for everyone. Since it’s hard to live on the actual rates, most families either do something like this, or pay the person more money under the table. This would be the situation with any family, and as I said, I’m close with my client and their parents and don’t want a different job.

        I’ve worked multiple jobs in the past, but it just isn’t doable for me and I prefer roommates to not having weekends, even though I’d prefer not to have roommates.

        As I’m reading your comment, seems like you think he feels guilty or worried about me getting paid extra and this is driving his behavior, including bringing up the extra money when I discuss boundaries or time off? I don’t think I understand the connection. As you say, we both don’t have “clean hands,” so it doesn’t intimidate me when he brings it up.

        1. New Senior Manager*

          I see, thanks for explaining. Then it sounds like you care for this client and their parents so it may be worth it to have a conversation with the father to see if you both can find a compromise in the middle. And know what you want from him before this discussion. If he starts those ‘you should be grateful…’ comments I would acknowledge that yes you’re grateful and you still would like to renegotiate.

          1. Complainasaurus Rex*

            I feel like maybe I didn’t express myself clearly in my OP…I can’t renegotiate the rate and I don’t want to ask them for more money. I’ve never asked them for money, they’ve offered. The situation is what it is.

            I just dislike being given something and being told it’s a bonus or gift, but then having it brought up later to try to affect non-money negotiations. I think that’s unfair.

  166. NoMercy*

    *This is just a vent. I do not plan to go to HR about this.

    I have been off work since last September for breast cancer treatment. The lady who held my position for 25 years before I started retired in 2015 and comes back on contract for the month of April because of tax season. This year she was asked to extend her contract to the end of June to cover for my absence. I only finished radiation treatment a week ago and she calls me the other day. She wants to know when I’m coming back to work. I let her know that I still have to recover from treatment and build my immunity back up and the doctor will determine how long that will take. I was also told by HR that I will need to take some vacation days that have accrued during my absence as well as our fiscal year runs from Oct-Sep and there won’t be enough time to take all of them once I return. She seems to understand that and we continue discussing other matters and then, once again, she broaches the subject of my return again. She asks if I would consider coming back sooner and we could job share. Once again I let her know I just finished treatment but need to recover and then I need to take some vacation days.

    I understand she is stressed out covering for me but she is under no obligation to do so. I just don’t understand why on earth she thought it would be easier to pressure me into coming back sooner than tell the company she would rather not extend her contract.

    There is an attitude at my place of work that has been in place since the beginning it seems that, unless you are dying, you should be at work. Some partners and at least one manager have returned to work following serious surgeries (one had a brain tumour!) well before the recommended timeline for their recovery and I believe that has set an unrealistic example of what is expected.

    I have no intention of returning any earlier than my doctor recommends. I just can’t believe this happened and it pisses me off.

    *Vent over*

  167. Highly Anxious Person*

    I’m getting antsy about my work situation. It’s not the best job for me, although it does pay well and it has decent (not great) benefits. I was starting to look for another job, but then the virus thing happened and the good job leads seemed to have dried up. One of the most promising leads was in a business field particularly hard hit and it will probably be more than a year or so before that particular business field gets back to where they were. So I feel kind of stuck in my current situation.

    After having been on furlough for the month of April (I’m one of those introverts who actually enjoyed being alone at home on lockdown) my employer now wants us to start working from home. I picked up a laptop from work on Friday (that was a trip) and I’m working on getting it set up at home. I’ve never worked from home before. I can imagine working from home, but not really in this particular job. When I’m at work I usually need a bit of support and advice about how to handle things from my coworkers and it will be really weird just using Skype instead of actually talking to people. I’m afraid that I’m not going to be very productive or get very much done. Also, I’m sure that my employer will be constantly monitoring the computers to be sure that we are really working. I guess I just have to grit my teeth and do the best I can under the situation. But, arrgh!

  168. Mesik*

    How should one negotiate for salary during a pandemic? Has this topic been spoken on?

  169. LilPinkSock*

    My company has traditionally held a low-key employee picnic every summer. For many reasons, not all of which are COVID-related, we will have to go in a different direction this year. One suggestion from a few colleagues is an company talent show. Has anyone ever organized something similar?

  170. charo*

    I just read a question from a woman whose BF was impersonating a doctor while working in a hospice situation. And then an old one from one whose BF faked a doctor note and got caught.

    BOTH men seem like sociopaths or even psychopaths — but both women seem gullible, too, esp. the hospice one. She doesn’t even KNOW how illegal and immoral it is to play a dr. at a hospice?

    Maybe these guys are both great-looking and slick — but their acts go beyond cheating a bit at work into something more elaborate.

    In business we can be blind to what a sociopath / psychopath even looks like. There’s a great book by a scientist who was studying psychopaths’ brain scans and realized his OWN was one! He’s very open and able to talk about it and admit his family often called him on some of his manipulative behavior, it’s a fascinating read.

    Sorry I can’t recall the title but you can google the description.

    1. LilPinkSock*

      A school might like them. I had a language teacher who encouraged us to use file folders for verb conjugations. We drew a chart on either side and could keep worksheets and examples in the middle.

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