open thread – May 15-16, 2020

by Alison Green on May 15, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,142 comments }

{ 1,142 comments… read them below }

  1. JKJK*

    I’ve been on here to express frustration dealing with a more junior employee before, and gotten some good advice as to how to communicate with them. I’m in a position now where I really dont know what the best course of action is.

    One of the people on my team is another animator who, frankly, I have had a lot of trouble with since she started. When a process can be recorded in detailed instructions and always done the same way, she does fine. But our job requires a lot of problem solving, and when she needs to make decisions without explicit instructions, her choices can make me really question her critical thinking and judgment, hence yesterday…

    The problem was this (its an essentially visual problem, so a little tricky to explain over text, or maybe its not and Im still doubting my sanity so much that I’m overdoing it)

    ______________

    She was telling ME this because I had already made an animation with a ball rolling counterclockwise… but in mine the ball was traveling the other way (to the right, as above) and so was rotating correctly. She wanted to check in with me before she made her change so I had a chance to correct my animation to match.

    I was so baffled that she was having trouble with this concept that I started to question my own sanity, and went to both my roommates and drew them the same thing I drew here, and and asked them to draw an arrow showing the direction the ball would turn if sticking to and rolling along the surface.

    This is not the first time I’ve had this kind of exchange with her, and I genuinely don’t know what to do here….

    1. JKJK*

      Ok second try, my attempt at ASCII art seemed to format out all of the info in my post…

      I’ve been on here to express frustration dealing with a more junior employee before, and gotten some good advice as to how to communicate with them. I’m in a position now where I really dont know what the best course of action is.

      One of the people on my team is another animator who, frankly, I have had a lot of trouble with since she started. When a process can be recorded in detailed instructions and always done the same way, she does fine. But our job requires a lot of problem solving, and when she needs to make decisions without explicit instructions, her choices can make me really question her critical thinking and judgment, hence yesterday…

      The problem was this (its an essentially visual problem, so a little tricky to explain over text, or maybe its not and Im still doubting my sanity so much that I’m overdoing it)

      She had to make an animation of a sticky ball rolling along the ceiling from right to left, but the ball in her animation was turning counterclockwise instead of clockwise. So the ball was moving to the left, but rotating the wrong way, as though it were trying to roll to the right but being pulled backwards against friction.

      When my Boss gave her the feedback “the ball is rolling in the wrong direction” she asked for clarification. After some back and forth, she corrected it, but still didn’t seem to understand WHY the ball needed to roll clockwise. I found out about this because she was trying to explain to me over Zoom that “even though it didn’t seem right, the ball needs to roll clockwise.”

      She was telling ME this because I had already made an animation with a ball rolling counterclockwise… but in mine the ball was traveling the other way (to the right) and so was rotating correctly. She wanted to check in with me before she made her change so I had a chance to correct my animation to match.

      I was so baffled that she was having trouble with this concept that I started to question my own sanity, and went to both my roommates and drew them the same thing I drew here, and and asked them to draw an arrow showing the direction the ball would turn if sticking to and rolling along the surface.

      This is not the first time I’ve had this kind of exchange with her, and I genuinely don’t know what to do here….

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        I’d just reply that your ball is rolling correctly. And I’d let the boss know what she asked you bit in a “I’m checking in with you in case she saw something I dont see” way.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        It sounds like she’s having a hard time visualizing specific physical movement? I know that sounds weird, but it sounds like she’s imagining clockwise motion by thinking of the top of a clock and its hands’ movement to the right. But she’s not visualizing how it moves when the hands are traveling between 6-12, so she’s getting stuck on what constitutes left-ward movement. This doesn’t sound like a common sense problem, to me, but rather, a spatial and movement recognition block.

        I know this sounds silly and please shoot me down if it would be inappropriate, but would it make sense to sit down with her to talk about different kinds of common motion with a visual reference? Or about ways she can double-check her work against a visual reference?

        1. KoiFeeder*

          I don’t know every animation program out there, but the ones I use would totally allow for throwing down a motion path as a reference image. It’s way easier to delete a reference when I’m done with it than it is to reanimate an entire thing because I messed up.

        2. JKJK*

          I do appreciate these comments, because I think its making me realize that my frustration is misplaced. The issue is not so much that she didnt get this specific concept, even when it feels obvious to me. There are a lot of other factors here, and I think I’m just fixating on this one, because its a concrete example. I should give her the benefit of the doubt that its not intuitive, and make sure she gets it, and then we can move on.

        3. CatMintCat*

          I saw this as a problem visualising the thing too, because that’s something I have problems with. My head nearly exploded reading the original post and trying to visualise the issue and I never really succeeded. 60 years experience on this planet tells me I shouldn’t even try because I’ll never get it, but hope springs eternal. But somebody working as an animator probably shouldn’t have this problem, or at least not to this degree.

          I do not work as an animator, or in any field requiring visualisation.

      3. Cormorannt*

        Oof, a lack of spatial reasoning ability seems like a problematic skills gap for an animator. I don’t know what you can do about it, unfortunately. If she doesn’t see it, I don’t have any ideas on how you can make her see it, it’s literally already illustrated with animation! Perhaps have her stick to the more detailed work as much as possible.

        1. JKJK*

          This I think is the thing I should have communicated better… I don’t feel I should need to explain visual thinking to someone else whose job is visual thinking. Maybe I’ve done a poor job of explaining it (and I do understand how it could be difficult over text), or it really is a difficult concept, but to me it feels and looks like basic spatial reasoning and physics. Again, not to go into too much detail, but these animations are technical and nature and require detailed understanding of the subject matter.

          But I am getting a better idea from these comments that maybe this isn’t as intuitive as I thought it was, and that I should just accept that I’m going to have to explain things like this to her repeatedly. Maybe I am the jerk!

          1. Sparrow*

            I don’t think it’s intuitive for a lot of people, but I do understand why you’d feel it’s something that those in your field should be able to grasp. If a lot of her questionable choices come back to the same root issues, are there courses or resources of some sort that might be able to help her strengthen her understanding in this area? If so and you’re her supervisor, you might consider raising this as something that could limit her ability to advance in her career and setting the expectation that she take advantage of resources that could help her improve.

          2. Yorick*

            I guess it depends on whether she usually struggles with this kind of spatial reasoning, or if she’s having one clueless moment. Did anybody actually say something like “it looks like the ball’s trying to roll to the right but being pulled backwards against friction” to her, or did they just talk about the clockwise-counterclockwise direction being wrong? If they did and she still could never get it, that’s a bigger problem.

            1. Yorick*

              Sometimes you just have a brain fart. I was talking about how to overcome a data issue, and then I thought of a “solution” that pretty much completely ignored the issue and I got so excited, and the person I had just explained the issue to had to re-explain it to me. It was a real slap the forehead moment.

          3. Rachel in NYC*

            Different people can needs things explained differently to understand them. But she was animating a ball- if she grabbed a ball and rolled it, she could see how it moved (honestly, I’m almost asked you if she rolled a ball the direction she needed it go.)

            That said, I can barely do left and right so I just keep imagining a ball on the floor then transposing it to the ceiling and then wondered by the ball was on the ceiling (and got scared).

          4. Sciencer*

            For what it’s worth, I understood what you were trying to explain right away. I don’t think you’re crazy for thinking you should not have to explain this multiple times to someone in your field. And I’d have expected her to have an “oh duh” moment about it, not a “okay I guess I’ll fix it but why?”

            So it’s hard to say without seeing the animation, but is it possible in this specific instance that there’s an optical illusion thing happening? I work in a field that requires a lot of visual-spatial reasoning and understanding, and it’s true that some struggle with it more than others. But some visualizations “pop” one way for some people and the opposite way for others, and it takes significant effort to see it correctly if you happen to naturally see it the wrong way. With spinning balls in an animation, I can imagine this type of thing coming into play. Think about watching something that spins really fast – in some specific scenarios, it can appear to be spinning very slowly in the opposite direction. Maybe she’s just naturally tuned to seeing the ball spin in a way it’s not actually spinning due to some weird specifics about this particular animation.

            But. That’s pretty speculative and benefit-of-the-doubt. If this is just one example of an ongoing problem, it sounds like there’s something deeper at play – a gap in her skillset – that needs to be addressed by her manager.

          5. Not So NewReader*

            I am going to go from your specific situation to a generality: For me, when a work story contains the phrase, “I don’t feel I should have to explain”, are the times I have found myself in some the most head-banging problems at work.

            Try to forever let go of that phrase and concept. I am still working on this, it comes up less often now but when ever I catch myself thinking I should not have to explain, I know I have just fallen into a bottomless dark pit.

            There’s two parts to the problem here. Her lack of understanding and your frustration. If you can let go of the idea that you should not have to explain, then all you would have left is her lack of understanding.

            Believe me I KNOW this is hard. The easiest stuff to us can also be the hardest stuff for us to convey to someone who just doesn’t get it. We have never had to put it into words, it was intuitive to us, or we grasped it instantly, eh, maybe we aren’t even sure why we know this particular thing.

            But I can assure you that parallel examples happen in almost every arena. People hit brain voids. People get confused on a certain point whenever it comes up. (I can’t tell my right from my left. It hasn’t changed in all these years, I am not optimistic it will change now. Fortunately ?? I have a scar on my right hand. It’s a weird gesture, someone says an item is to my right and the first thing I do is look at my hands.) There are many reasons why we have to explain core stuff.

            And, check this out, you are RIGHT! We should not have to explain core concepts. But if we want the project or work to move forward, we can feel stuck and we have to explain this Basic Thing. (Wish I had a dime for every time….)

            Since this type of thing comes up every so often, I tried to think about tools I would use to keep my patience intact and develop an explanation for the question.
            –attitude of service. I am here to serve in whatever way I am needed.
            –next time could be me. I could hit that brain void and someone has to explain to me that 2 apples plus 2 apples equals 4 apples.
            –self-development. I think in pictures not words. Anytime I have to exercise my brain by putting things into words then I am probably developing myself in broader ways.
            –it might generate good will. Sometimes people realize I just counted up the apples for them and they indicate they are appreciate that I was patient.

            If she is otherwise good at her job, I’d be patient. If she has done this on many occasions, I would start to think about how to point her to resources so she can answer her own questions. I do believe in handing out fishing poles, not fish.

            I suspect that a good chunk of the reaction on your part has to deal with her assumption that YOUR work is incorrect.
            I assume you all can test things out to see if your own work is correct. You could let her change your work so she can see it was correct initially.
            If she has said this in the past then it appears that her go-to is that your work is wrong and hers is correct. You could ask her not to make those assumptions that your work is always wrong. Just say, “I don’t assume others are wrong, because I could be having an off day myself. However, you could ask me if I meant to do/write/draw something a certain way instead of just saying it’s wrong.”

            I may not fully understand the problem, but I might consider bringing in a ball with arrows drawn on it and rolling the ball around to show her. I don’t always do well with spacial stuff, so I could be off track here.

            Never forget the fatigue factor. Sometimes I have been able to say, “It’s late in the day. Why don’t we go home, get some rest and look at it in the morning.” This alone can work absolute miracles for ME as well as the other person. Once in a while the person comes in the next day to say, “Never mind. I was tired and not seeing X yesterday. Today, I get it, there’s X. Okay, we are all set here.”

            Punchline. I have never seen the phrase, “I don’t feel I should need to explain….” help me through any situation, ever. Matter of fact, it seems to make everything twice as hard. It is wise to check if one solution is to alert the boss that the person is really struggling with the job. Maybe that is the actual answer.

            1. BethDH*

              Most of this feels right on to me (and helps me personally, since a lot of what you said about OP controlling their own frustration really make me rethink some of my responses).
              That said, I don’t think bringing in a ball as an example is a good solution. First, I’m guessing this sort of thing is not part of a thing that should be taking enough time that OP would bring in a ball the next day — that sort of animating doesn’t take too long unless there are circumstances OP didn’t mention, and it would probably seem like OP was fixating inappropriately outside of work if they did. Think bringing in text samples the next day if someone was misusing semi-colons in a writing job.
              On a more practical note, I doubt it would actually help because I get the sense that the coworker is actually having a hard time precisely because she is visualizing movement of a ball on the floor and just transposing it to the ceiling. So on the floor, a ball rolling counterclockwise moves to the left. If it’s sticking to the ceiling, though, it’s reversed. So seeing a ball roll on the floor might just reinforce the same incorrect premise. Coworker needs to understand movement in terms of contact surfaces: the next part of the ball to touch the surface, whether ceiling or floor, is the one on the side of the ball that is facing the direction of movement. If the ball is moving left, the left side of the ball will touch the surface next, but on the floor this means it moves counterclockwise while on the ceiling it goes clockwise.

        2. Cj*

          Spatial problems are always the ones that give me most problems ontests. Therefore, I would never be an animator. I can’t imagine not being able to visualize this stuff and being an animator.

      4. Can't Think Backwards*

        I suspect she doesn’t understand because it’s rolling along the ceiling rather than the floor, so her intuition is backwards. I have trouble visualizing things that are reversed from the normal way I’m used to orienting them (e.g. figuring out which way is west when I’m facing south instead of north – west just always feels like it should be left to me). Maybe that’s a pattern in the mistakes she’s making?

        1. Clisby*

          Hah! I know what you mean. I always feel like I’m facing north, so obviously east is to my right. Too many years of school geography classes where north was always straight ahead. Fortunately, I have the compensatory skill of being able to visualize maps in my head, so I’m not totally lost.

      5. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I would be very confused by the boss’s feedback too. Granted, I’m not a designer, and I do better when I can see what the issue is, but if you told me, “The ball is rolling in the wrong direction,” I would have changed it to go across the ceiling from the left side to the right side and I wouldn’t have changed the rotation– because you’re referring to the rotation of the ball itself, not the direction in which the ball was rolling. It sounds like different communication styles. Design can be so specific, it sounds like that’s what she’s used to.

        When she said that it didn’t seem right that the ball needs to roll clockwise, did you explain to her why it does? She’s junior– she may need some walking through of the general concept beyond the specific instructions until she gets more comfortable with your team’s style.

      6. LemonLyman*

        This might be going a bit overboard, but could you record a real life demo for her? Building on what Princess said here, seeing what it looks like in actuality might help her visualize this and convince her you’re correct. For instance, if you took a tennis ball or something else round (even circle cut from a piece of paper) and tag it with something she can keep an eye on like a sketch of a clock. Then roll it slowly to show her how the clock is moving. You could even throw in a line of explanation that when you’re unsure, you like to test against reality to get the details correct. Even if that’s not true, it gives her a strategy so she can (hopefully) approach it more independently in the future.

        1. 'nother prof*

          Alternatively, suggest that she try rolling something in the relevant direction in her home and look at how it moves. Honestly, even if she’s junior, the use of reference material is such a basic tool for animators that I’d be questioning her here too. (That said, I agree with AvonLady Barksdale about the boss’ feedback, so if it’s possible that she got confused whether Boss was describing the overall direction of movement versus the direction of rotation, give her a break.)

          FWIW, I teach animation (analysis, not production).

        2. NotAPirate*

          Soup can, draw a line from the center to one edge on the circle part with a sharpie, roll it. Really easy visual reference for spin direction. Had some kids struggle with that in physics.

      7. Blue Socks*

        Do you supervise her in any way? Is making sure that she does her job correctly part of your job? If so, it would be very reasonable to loop your boss in here and say “I’m struggling to help Sasha address some skills gaps. Is there [insert what you think would help – extra training, etc] available?” If not, just tell her your ball is moving the correct way, leave it at that, and let the person who IS responsible for making sure she does her job correctly work on making sure she has the skills necessary to do her job.

      8. Kiki*

        I see how this would be a problematic point of misunderstanding for an animator, but it also seems like it could one of those things that could just be one personal brain block for her. Like, I am a pretty capable individual in most ways, but I still as an adult consistently need to pause before determining which is my right or left. Which I know is really weird and might give people the impression I am not bright, but it’s just a weird personal quirk I’ve always had.
        When you say you’ve had this kind of exchange with her before, how often do you mean and have they all been in the same vein? If they’re similar is there any sort of graphic or tutorial you could make her? If she seems to be struggling with basic components of the role generally, I think that’s something you should bring up in confidence to their manager and get their perspective on.

        1. CatMintCat*

          I had a childhood full of teachers saying “your right hand is the one you write with … not that one, you stupid girl!”. I still have to stop and think about which is which to this day.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Sounds familiar. Back then we were stupid. Now we are ambidextrous. The people who said that, however, remain stupid. .. just my thought on that.

            1. CatMintCat*

              I like your thinking. Except I’m not ambidextrous. I remain very left handed.

      9. Hawkeye is in the details*

        Oh, I get your frustration, OP. In the course of a month, I had to explain to several people, all on the same team who have been doing their jobs for YEARS, why a 2-page PDF of a double-sided sign has arrows pointing in different directions, and how, once produced and put on the floor, those arrows will point people to the same place.

        It had never been an issue before. But the printer screwed up one sign one time, and once they all got overly cautious, they couldn’t remember how arrows worked and how people approaching from the front would turn right, and people approaching from the back would turn left to get to the same place.

        They had me doubting my sanity for a moment, and several of my co-workers too, and I ended up drawing arrows on Post-it’s and sticking them together to prove my point.

        1. memyselfandi*

          I just tried to visualize the balls rolling looking up at the ceiling and had them both rolling counter-clockwise. I had to take a round object (can of disinfecting wipes) and roll it along the underside of my desk to get it, and I had to really concentrate on the right to left motion to see that it was clockwise. My brain really wanted to see counterclockwise. Every brain is different! I really wonder if there is a dissertation in this somewhere.

      10. RagingADHD*

        You’re not insane. She’s not able to translate the instructions into images correctly, and she’s not able to visualize real-world actions in imaginary space.

        I don’t know that there is anything for you to do about it, other than choose her assignments accordingly.

        In this specific instance, you may have been able to get it across by having her highlight a quarter or a half of the leading edge of the ball in a different color, to show which section of the ball’s surface would contact the ceiling next.

        But if you’re expecting her to work independently, it could be an ongoing hassle to come up with these kind of remedial teaching tools. It comes down to what level she’s expected to work at, and if her skills are meeting your needs for the position.

      11. Flabbernabbit*

        The only thing I’d suggest is to set up your conversation so that she figures out the issue for herself. As in, “Sansa, roll an orange on the table. Okay, what direction the orange is rolling. Your left? Okay. Now, start over same direction. Look at the orange. Forget it is travelling. Is the orange turning clockwise or counterclockwise?” That way, you’re asking her to think it through first. Then next time she comes to you because someone tells her to fix something or she thinks you’re wrong, ask her to walk you through why, step by step.

        In my experience, it’s a lot of work at first, but when they realize that they need to do some leg work on their own, they figure it out before you see them. Or they own performance issues before you all their fixes. I’m not an animator, but I’m not a fan of my team asking for fixes, improvements or whole projects without providing any information on business value, impact analysis, or a business case for the big stuff.

    2. Yorick*

      Other people have given some explanations about why she may have been confused and good advice for how you could explain it to her. I just want to point out that you shouldn’t interpret her telling you this as her thinking you’re dumb or doing things wrong. When we don’t quite get something, we don’t realize it’s obvious to other people. Then when we finally get it, we realize how silly we were being at first.

      1. JKJK*

        I know she doesnt think I’m dumb or doing things wrong, she is a very kind and thoughtful person and I trust that everything she does is with the best intentions. I suppose I’m more concerned that even after corrected, she doesnt seem to understand the reason for the feedback she was given. She tried to correct my animation, that was already correct, because I feel she fundamentally misunderstood the feedback she was given.

        But point taken, maybe I need more compassion in this situation.

        1. bunniferous*

          I think the issue is the BOSS miscommunicated in this one example. If she misunderstood what he was saying of course she would think yours was wrong! Sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know and in this case she doesn’t know that she is focusing wrong….

    3. NotAPirate*

      Are you her boss? Or do you share a boss? If you are at the point of wanting to PIP that’s a very different conversation than a friendly chat about better ways to use references for animation.

    4. Working Grandma*

      I have limited spatial reasoning ability,and this makes my brain hurt :-)

    5. Deanna Troi*

      If it makes you feel any better, I could visualize what the problem was from your first explanation. I don’t think that makes me smarter than anyone else – there are plenty of things I don’t understand. But it may be problematic for someone who doesn’t intuitively get this to do this particular kind of work.

      Another way to explain it might be that you have an animation of someone a dog walking along. The animation has the dog’s legs moving as though it is walking forward, but in fact the entire dog is moving backwards. This is awkward because most dogs have difficulty walking backwards comfortably for any distance.

    6. anon here*

      Hey, JKJK, I feel you here. Visualization of 3d stuff is super-easy to me; I’m a mathematician, and frankly I think my crafty family background helps too. (It’s funny: I find knitting lace patterns super-intuitive because they just “stack up”, and I thought I was a really great knitter as a result until I tried to knit a pair of socks with a pattern a friend picked out — it was a completely asymmetrical winding vine pattern that had no repeats at all, and I found it so frustrating that I actually quit halfway, because I was so used to just knowing what the next 120 rows ought to be without looking a the pattern, haha!)

      I would find your coworker really frustrating too. I just wouldn’t know how to explain this stuff that ought to be obvious, right, to a visual person, right? I don’t have good advice other than taking a lot of deep breaths and knowing that I’m sure you’re just as mystifying to someone else…. which I conclude from talking with my husband, whose mind is a complete mystery orthogonal to mine. I know he’s smart, but he truly, truly thinks really differently than me. He can replace the brakes on 1998 Volkswagen and rewire the door locks no problem, but things that are 100% obvious to me are 100% non-obvious to him. It’s weird. Good luck, that’s all I can say.

      1. AGD*

        I reacted this way too. Math and spatial visualization stuff is super easy for my brain, which is good because I do and teach heavily quantitative social science stuff. And I run into ideas from other fields that I just can’t wrap my mind around. This has come up in the context of my work maybe twice, but those were useful reminders of complementary strengths and interests.

  2. Furloughed in Troubled Times*

    For people who have been furloughed indefinitely without a return date, how long are you waiting to return to your current job before looking for a new one?

    I’ve been furloughed since the beginning of April, so a month and a half now. I have the savings to last six to eight months without income (probably longer now since I don’t have any ‘going out’ costs with staying at home and filing for unemployment). So I can last several more months. My job has been great about communicating with us so though I am of course still worried I’ll be laid off, I feel a bit better. I don’t know about launching myself into a job search because who would even be hiring right now with everything going on.

    How are other furloughed people handling this? Are you getting by in savings and unemployment that you can wait it out or have you dusted of your resume and started searching?

    1. Not a Girl Boss*

      Start looking now. Worst case, you can turn down offers that aren’t good enough. Best case, you get a job better than the one you once had.

      I imagine that as time goes on, and more and more companies realize they are not going to reopen, the competition will only get stiffer.

      1. Cj*

        The problem with that scenario is if you turn down a job offer of, you’re no longer eligible for unemployment.

        1. Darren*

          1. You only become ineligible if you turn down a comparable offer (i.e. there is a salary band it needs to be in relation to your previous work apparently it’s a state specific thing).
          2. Just don’t get offers. Ask the questions you need in the interview, and if it’s not the right fit or the range is too low opt out right there in the interview “I’m sorry after discussing this position in more detail I don’t feel this is the right fit for me.” Obviously you can’t count that interview to any job seeking requirements but those are in general waived at the moment anyway.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      100% start looking for another job. Job hunting always takes a good amount of time, and even more so right now. By the time you have a good offer for a job you really want, you probably will have more information about the status of your current job. And it never hurts to get ahead of things!

    3. B*

      Another vote for recommending kicking off the hunt. Even though my industry was hard hit, we have still had to proceed with hiring for a few essential (to our business) roles that were open prior to the shut down. I know many other companies are in the same boat, but these jobs are filling up fast.

    4. Emmie*

      I wonder if you’re concerned about leaving this job for another one. Do you like your current job?

      I would search now. You could wait, but that feels incredibly risky because returning to a pre-COVID economy soon feels out of reach.

      If you need any hope, companies, like mine, are growing and actively hiring right now.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I say go for it. As Not a Girl Boss says, you can always turn down bad offers.
      As to “who would be hiring”, well, business keeps going. Scroll back through Alison’s May & April posts. She’s shared success stories from people who have been hired and started new positions despite the current economy.
      Good luck!

    6. lost academic*

      If I were to be furloughed I’d be looking immediately. Quite frankly I’m already looking though haven’t actually sent any applications because I’m not in a position where being on call 24/7 without being paid will work for me.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      I’d give it a month, which you have. Especially if your state started to reopen.
      Unless you’ve had some type of communication informing you of a potential return-to-work date, start looking ASAP. It will take a while and you don’t want to take just any old job but look for a good fit for you.

    8. Fikly*

      What’s the con of starting to look immediately?

      I mean, if the worst outcome is you don’t have a job, well, that’s the worst outcome if you don’t job search, too, right?

      If you don’t search, how will you know who is hiring?

      2. filosofickle*

        I’d imagine the con is going through a lot of effort and stress if you don’t need to. Job hunting sucks! But if income and steady employment matter — and they usually do — then yeah it’s good to find out what your options are.

    9. Artemesia*

      Assume a furlough is permanent and start looking now. There is no reason to assume things will go back to the way they were. This is true in most furlough situations unless an organization always has seasonal furloughs — and things we learned with seasonal furloughs are not relevant to this major disruption of the economy. You don’t have to take a job that doesn’t appear stable, but even if you took one and the furlough ended you COULD go back — if it doesn’t end then you are positioned to move on more quickly. And in any mass layoff the people who look and move first do best.

    10. Yorick*

      Start looking right away. As long as there’s a reasonable possibility of going back to your old job, you can always turn down a job that isn’t exciting.

    11. RemoteHealthWorker*

      I agree with others to look now. I was only partially furloughed and I started looking immediately. 6 weeks later I’m only just now getting my first phone interview.

    12. tink*

      We have a tentative return date but no guarantees our jobs will still be around, so I’m taking a week off (minus applying for unemployment) and will start doing a very focused hunt after that.

    13. Case of the Mondays*

      My advice would be different from the group if you have a very stable job that is only furloughing you because the business is shut down by the government – like a dental office. If you are a hygienist and all hygienists are temporarily out of work, I wouldn’t switch careers just yet. You will be needed in the future.

    14. Tiny Magnolia*

      I’d start looking now, just like the other commenters have said. Even if you accept a new position, if you’re called back to your old position, you have yet another decision to make.

      On unemployment, if you accept a new position, and discontinue unemployment, does the unemployment office let your former job know that you are no longer on it?

    15. RobotWithHumanHair*

      I got furloughed on April 9th and I started looking at the beginning of May, especially since my job hasn’t been great about communicating at all (except to mention in their last email that all the remote employees were coming back to the office and that was two weeks ago).

      No unemployment has come through (thanks, Florida DEO) and our savings is slowly depleting. I’m thankful for the schools giving out food for the kids on Fridays, but I doubt that’s lasting much longer with the school year ending in a couple weeks. Without unemployment, we can last maybe through July.

      Needless to say, I have not been handling things well at all considering anything I’m qualified for seems to come either with a massive paycut (and I was already paid below market value at my job) or a massive increase in terms of commute (from 90 minutes round trip at furloughed job versus upwards of 4 hours round trip)

      My mental state is, TBH, completely shot. I’m thankful I still have my medical insurance for my meds or I’d be in real trouble.

    16. AnalyticalAmy*

      I recommend finding openings on Indeed, but applying directly through a company’s website. This way you can be certain your formatting isn’t being changed and the company has all your contact information to reach out, this isn’t always the case on Indeed, and their recruiting services are…not great.

      I also find LinkedIn very useful and applying directly through there can help add to your candidacy if you have any degree of connection to the hiring manager. I used the free premium trial and was able to land a job before it expired (not a LinkedIn ad, I just benefitted from it-and my manager said seeing my premium badge helped her decision in initially moving me forward too)

    17. Bluebell*

      My husband just learned this week that his furlough will end at the end of May. He really likes his job, so he didn’t start looking when he was furloughed at end of March. If he hadn’t liked his job so much, I would have supported his decision to start a search.

    18. rear mech*

      UGH. I am furloughed from a job I was about to give notice to :( The new job offer is still there, but it’s from a business that was supposed to open a new location in April..the opening has been pushed back to September due to the industry depending on travel. I haven’t been applying to other jobs because I have two birds in the hand so to speak. The birds are looking a little bit sickly though. Both jobs involve interacting with travelers. Current job is outdoors so there is considerably less risk of infection. However, it is crappier in every other regard, a major one being part time vs. full time. But what if the new full time job gets changed to part time due to decreased demand? Even if it doesn’t, how do I weigh $, benefits, bathroom access, etc against a real increased risk of getting (and spreading) covid? HALP

      1. Dream Jobbed*

        I think you need to break this out next week into it’s own section, as people will probably have answers for you.

      2. BethDH*

        I would make one factor what impression you get from company 2. Do they seem like they’re making the best possible effort to support their employees NOW? What kinds of messages do they convey about the reopening? I know you said you’re going to a new location, but if you can find out what they’ve done about their other locations’ staff that’s important.
        Also, consider how/if the added money could make a difference to your overall health and safety. Would it make it possible to take other precautions around commuting, necessary errands, etc.? Would it mean you got better health insurance for non-Covid illnesses?

    19. First Time Caller*

      Agreed with other commenters that it’s not a bad idea to get started. If nothing else it could be a welcome distraction, and I think of any job searching/applying as practice. Even if you are able to go back to your current position, soon, should you want to look elsewhere down the road, that practice could come in handy!

    20. Flyleaf*

      15 minutes. Add 30 minutes if you want to have lunch before you start. So, no more than 45 minutes max.

  3. Jedi Squirrel*

    I’m trying to find a new job. Craigslist absolutely sucks for job searching.

    What are some job boards where you’ve seen decent help wanted ads? Industry-specific is fine, as I’m looking to make a change.

    1. Not a Girl Boss*

      I’ve found Glassdoor has plenty of jobs at all levels (eg plenty of manual labor jobs like assembly and warehouse).

    2. Rose Tyler*

      LinkedIn or Indeed. In my industry anything on Craigslist is direct sales or sketchy.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes! Indeed.com seems to have a wider variety.
        Yeah, I would carefully vet any job via Craig’s list.

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        Indeed is the best. Found my last 2 jobs.

        If there is a specific company that you are looking at or would like to work at try their website.

      2. Amy Sly*

        I like Ziprecruiter, if for no other reason than they tell you when someone has looked at your application. It’s a nice little ego boost that says “Yes! This application didn’t just disappear into the ether!”

        I got my current job with the LinkedIn job board three months ago, so just before everything shut down here. (In fact, one of my questions to my interviewers was “Do you expect the factory shutdowns in China due to the virus to impact your business?”)

    4. The Original K.*

      LinkedIn, Indeed, Glassdoor, and industry-specific boards like the Public Relations Society’s job board for PR jobs, or Idealist for nonprofit jobs.

    5. Wordnerd*

      It’s maybe not the most stable industry at the moment, but higher ed has lots of non-academic jobs requiring different skillsets and are sometimes the main employer in lots of rural areas. Higheredjobs dot com.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      All of the suggestions everyone has made above are great, an old-fashioned “[title/industry] jobs in [your city]” google search can open up some things too.

      And I’ve always found that no matter where you find the job listed, you’re almost always better off applying for the job directly on the company’s website. Some companies are really good about managing their off-site listings, but not all of them are, and applying on the company website directly increases your chance of your application not going into a black hole. (Though most job applications are essentially throwing your resume in a black hole, but this hole is a little smaller.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        And I’ve always found that no matter where you find the job listed, you’re almost always better off applying for the job directly on the company’s website.

        This, for all the reasons you said. I never used to get responses to applications I sent through job boards directly, but once I went through the company’s website directly (after seeing a job posting on a board), I started getting contacted by HR for phone screens.

        Another reason to apply direct through the company’s website is because those job boards can have positions listed that are no longer open. You’ll be able to double check that before wasting your time writing cover letters and tweaking your resume for a job that may have already been filled.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          I’m right there with you! But I’ve never found blind listings to be worth my time so at least it lets you know to skip it.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’ve rarely seen anything that’s not a blind listing, it’s what makes job searches so sketchy feeling on the internet.

          I’ve never worked for an organization that does job applications via their website though, too small of a fish for that setup!

        3. Dancing Otter*

          Blind listings are not new. Back in the dark ages of newspaper want ads (yes, I’m old), probably the majority of ads just listed a box number at the newspaper, without even giving a location.
          Living in a large metropolitan area, it wouldn’t necessarily be worth relocation within the area, but commuting anywhere but downtown or to a nearby suburb wouldn’t really be workable, either. So how were you supposed to know if it was even worth the envelope and stamp to apply?
          Then, there’s the whole business of tailoring your cover letter to an unknown company, and frequently with only the vaguest of job descriptions. “Staff accountant for growing company” is so helpful!

    7. Raea*

      I’ve used Indeed for the last two major changes I’ve made. I’m not a huge fan of the site’s layout, but they have some quality listings and I know a lot of companies list with them exclusively.

      Also have had luck with LinkedIn, but it required sorting through a fair amount of junk.

      I’m also a fan of the whole choose a company, check their direct website for listings approach. But I tend to focus more on the employer than the position so this might not work for everyone.

      Best of luck in your hunt!

    8. Secret Squirrel*

      I’ve had good luck with Linkedin and Indeed
      for media jobs mediabistro.com

    9. voluptuousfire*

      If you’re looking for startsup/tech, Built In is a good resource. They have different websites for different cities. Same for VentureFizz.

      SimplyHired is another. Craigslist sucks for anything other than selling your couch.

      1. Remedial Chaos Theory*

        Seconding Built In & VentureFizz.

        Another good one for startups specifically is AngelList.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, no, not Craigslist so much any more, except maybe for local gigs.
      Indeed, LinkedIn, Glassdoor, CareerBuilder, State Unemployment Office Board, FlexJobs, ZipRecruiter, Job.com, MediaBistro, USAJobs, We Work Remotely, Idealist, HigherEdJobs, Dice, Google for Jobs, Monster, SimplyHired

      LinkedIn actually has a special section called “Here’s who’s hiring right now” that is updated daily.
      Currently it includes: Instacart, Amazon, Albertsons, CVS, Walmart, Allied Universal, FEDEX and many more.
      Also find with a #hiringnow you can follow as companies post.

    13. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Reach out to your local public library. Many subscribe to databases that include jobs boards, as well as interview and resume advice.

    14. RemoteHealthWorker*

      Ive had good luck with LinkedIn. Just dont believe their “closed” status. Many times linked has said one of my saved jobs is closed, anf when i go directly to the company site its still available. There searches are very intuitive and pretty relevant.

      I was very dissappointed in Zip recruiter. The second I uploaded a resume I was spammed by recruiters for entry level call center jobs…Im a sr data scientist. The search function was weak and most postings were clearly recruiting agencies who were stealing company listings to repost.

      Indeed has gone down hill. I got my last two jobs from indeed but they now have outdated searches and lots of recruiting cross posts.

      Lastly I have had some luck watching specific company sites. YMMV depending in the companies and region.

    15. Nicki Name*

      If you’re looking for anything in software/IT, Dice is the place. I don’t dare even update my resume there with my latest job until I’m actively searching again, because it leads to calls or emails from recruiters I’ve worked with in the past, saying, “I noticed you updated your information, are you looking…?”

    16. Donkey Hotey*

      Adding recommendations for Indeed (first) and Glassdoor (second.)
      I don’t mean to sound crass, but Craigslist is where I go to get a laugh. (as in: really? You think $0.005 cents a word at a non-content farm writing gig is “competitive”?)

      1. Amy Sly*

        I can’t knock Craigslist too much … that’s how I got my first middle five figure job. I figured that a doc review company eight hours away from the city’s Craigslist site was probably going to be less picky than the local ones … and I was right!

          1. Amy Sly*

            I’ll fully agree that Craigslist resembles the Augean stables — you have to dig through tons of manure to find a cow. But there are a few cows to be found.

    17. Joielle*

      If you’re interested in working for your state or county, you can look on their employment sites – if you Google “[your state or county] jobs” you should be able to find it. There’s likely all kinds of stuff on there, since it includes all the different state agencies and levels of jobs. It’s kind of nice if you’re thinking about making a change, since you can peruse lots of listings and see if anything jumps out at you. I work for my state and I love it!

    18. AnalyticalAmy*

      I recommend finding openings on Indeed, but applying directly through a company’s website. This way you can be certain your formatting isn’t being changed and the company has all your contact information to reach out, this isn’t always the case on Indeed, and their recruiting services are…not great.

      I also find LinkedIn very useful and applying directly through there can help add to your candidacy if you have any degree of connection to the hiring manager. I used the free premium trial and was able to land a job before it expired (not a LinkedIn ad, I just benefitted from it-and my manager said seeing my premium badge helped her decision in initially moving me forward too)

      1. lazy intellectual*

        Also, for both Indeed and LI, you can change your settings to “willing to be contacted by recruiters”. Recruiters do notice this and contact you. However, in my experience, none of the recruiters were very helpful.

    19. Lalitah28*

      An HR post on LinkedIn had this post:
      Top 10 Sites for your career:
      1. Linkedin
      2. Indeed
      3. Naukri
      4. Monster
      5. JobBait
      6. Careercloud
      7. Dice
      8. CareerBuilder
      9. Jibberjobber
      10. Guide4info

      Top 10 Tech Skills in demand :
      1. Machine Learning
      2. Mobile Development
      3. SEO/SEM Marketing
      4. Data Visualization
      5. Data Engineering
      6. UI/UX Design
      7. Cyber-security
      8. Cloud Computing/AWS
      9. Blockchain
      10. IOT Top

      Top Sites for Free Online Education:

      1. Coursera
      2. edX
      3. Khan Academy
      4. Udemy
      5. iTunesU Free Courses
      6. MIT OpenCourseWare
      7. Stanford Online
      8. Codecademy
      9. Open Culture Online Courses

      Top 10 Sites to learn Excel for free:
      1. Microsoft Excel Help Center
      2. Excel Exposure
      3. Chandoo
      4. Excel Central
      5. Contextures
      6. Excel Hero b.
      7. Mr. Excel
      8. Improve Your Excel
      9. Excel Easy
      10. Excel Jet

      Top 10 Sites to review your resume for free:
      1. Zety Resume Builder
      2. Resumonk
      3. Resume dot com
      4. VisualCV
      5. Cvmaker
      6. ResumUP
      7. Resume Genius
      8. Resumebuilder
      9. Resume Baking
      10. Enhancy

      Top 5 Sites for Interview Preparation:
      1. Ambitionbox
      2. AceThelnterview
      3. Geeksforgeeks
      4. Leetcode
      5. Guide4info

      Hope this helps.

    20. lazy intellectual*

      Indeed is a good one. I recommend signing up for tailored e-mail blasts. GlobalJobs if you are open to some jobs that are international in scope. LinkedIn isn’t too bad either. Once you click through some jobs you are interested in, LI starts suggesting similar jobs.

    21. Jedi Squirrel*

      Oh, wow! So many great suggestions and ideas!

      Thanks, everybody! You’ve really cheered me up. I was having a really hard time figuring this out.

      It’s supposed to rain all day Sunday, so no outdoor activities for me. But that’s fine‒I’ll spend the day working through everything you’ve all mentioned.

      Live long and prosper!

    22. BeachMum*

      My company (and I do all of the hiring) uses Indeed. That said, if you sent the CFO or my husband (the company owner) a resume, they’d forward it to me and I’d keep it for the next time we were looking to hire someone.

      (My position is ‘wife’, but I also do most of the hiring since most of our employees are clerical and no one else feels like going through resumes. I also have a strong track record of finding good people.)

  4. Potatoes gonna potate*

    One of my reports from my last job sent me such a nice message on LinkedIn, so sweet!

  5. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    My company sent an email this week that said “Do you know that quarantine is also beneficial? Click here to know how!” You can imagine our reaction.

    1. Justme, the OG*

      Now I need to know how they think quarantine is beneficial. Other than stopping the spread of disease, that is.

      1. Madeleine Matilda*

        I can think of a few ways it has been beneficial. I’ve put 125 miles on my car in 2 months when usually I would drive that much in 2 1/2 days. I am getting more sleep since I don’t have a long commute. I’ve reconnected by Zoom with old friends. My house is cleaner than its ever been with well organized closets. This doesn’t mean that I want to stay at home forever or that there aren’t negatives, but there are some positives.

        1. Artemesia*

          We are eating better since we have to actual plan meals. I usually would just wander up to the grocery store on foot at the last minute — now where we get Instacart every two weeks, everything is planned and thus meals are better.

          1. Clisby*

            Yeah, I haven’t used Instacart, but my weekly grocery trip is a lot more organized. I like grocery shopping, so in normal times, I’d be walking slowly through the produce section, evaluating what’s there, thinking about what I could make with it. Not now. It’s like a military assault – plan, get in, and get out. I notice that even though I’m spending more on groceries, our monthly expenditures are going down. Way fewer restaurant meals (and even if I get takeout, that means if we want beer/wine with dinner, we’re not paying the restaurant up-charge price, we’re just drinking what we bought at ordinary retail.)

        2. Third or Nothing!*

          So far this month I’ve run/walked 63.5 miles when my normal monthly mileage would be around 35-40 since I usually spend 2 days a week cross training. So that’s been pretty great. I do miss getting to go to the gym though.

        3. twig*

          I actually forgot that I have a new (to me) car. That’s when I knew I’d been in the house too long.

        4. Justme, the OG*

          The experiences of you and the other commenters are not like mine at all.

        5. Sparrow*

          I think focusing on the positives in your own life is a good thing to do, and I’ve tried to do the same. But your company presuming to know all the ways that quarantine (and the virus situation as a whole) is affecting you and telling you it’s a good thing is different.

          I’m just thinking of the letter from a few days ago when a colleague stopped communicating and it turned out his father was in the hospital and later died of covid. Can you imagine getting a “quarantine is good!” email from your company while that was going on?

          1. Lynn Whitehat*

            Yeah, it’s different for everyone. My husband and I are both still employed full-time, and we have to support our kids’ distance learning. I haven’t been this slammed since they were babies. I cannot relate at *all* to the stuff going around social media about “LOL so much time on my hands I’m going to re-create ‘George Washington Crossing the Delaware’ in Legos”. I would be really unhappy to get something from my employer that assumes we’re all on Easy Street now.

      2. RussianInTexas*

        I walk so much more (vs not at all). I am putting almost no miles on my car (used to be really heavy traffic). I am eating better overall, although my baking picked up significantly. Chores are not as daunting because I can do small stuff like doing a load of laundry or dishes during lunch. I am spending WAY less money buying clothes, shoes, make-up.
        I mean, I would start driving in traffic again the second I was allowed to because I work so much better going to the office, but it haven’t been all gloom.
        Of course we both have our jobs still, so that helps.

      2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        We thought that too! I feel the person who wrote this is scraping the barrel of ideas, and this was suuuuuper out of touch.

    4. hermit crab*

      I mean, sure, it’s beneficial – for slowing the spread of disease and keeping people alive! It’s not like we’re doing it for fun. Something about the framing of “also beneficial” just makes it even weirder!

    5. Nita*

      Maybe it was phishing? I mean, the “click here” kind of suggests that. I also really want to believe it was phishing, and not someone being so tone-deaf.

  6. AnotherAlison*

    My high schooler has finished 10th grade, and will be going to work with my husband and other son next week. Thank God. No more mom teaching chemistry, math, or for the love of all things holy Spanish. Or just generally asking 20 times a week if he turned in the stuff for the other 5 classes. WFH is going to be a lot better when I don’t have that going on and I can actually take a break during lunch.

    1. Merci Dee*

      My daughter finished up her work for 9th grade on Wednesday. She’s excited that all the work is done and turned in, and she can get in to “real” summer mode a week and a half early. Under normal circumstances, her last day of school would have been May 21.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I’m afraid “real” summer will be disappointing here. Almost all rec activities have already cancelled and most pools aren’t opening.

        1. Case of the Mondays*

          And this is also showing the great class divide. Kids that leave in big suburban houses with their own pools are going to have a much different summer than the city kids.

          1. pancakes*

            They always have. I’m not saying that should continue, just saying it’s not a new development.

          2. Mr. Shark*

            Yes, this. I’m not in a bad situation compared to many, that’s for sure. But I see some co-workers or others on FB jumping in their swimming pools or saunas, and enjoying their nice big houses. I see others with lots of family around that even though I’m sure it’s stressful to be quarantined with a bunch of people 24/7, you at least have people to talk to and hug.
            Me in my two bedroom apartment, no balcony, no family, no nothing, all alone, it’s miserable sometimes.
            As I said, I’m still lucky compared to many. I have my job, and I live in a nice area where I can walk to the beach. So I can’t complain too much.

        2. Merci Dee*

          My daughter’s idea of an ideal day during the summer is sleeping until whenever she feels like getting up. Eating whatever she’s in the mood for. Then jumping on one of her game systems to play matches against random users for a few hours. Texting her friends for a while. Working on a couple of art projects. Taking one or two walks during the day. Picking up sticks and limbs from the back yard. Taking a nap. Playing with the cat at random points throughout. And then figuring out what we’re going to do for dinner once I’ve gotten home from work, if we don’t have to make a quick trip to the store for groceries.

          She’s very much an introvert and most pleased with her own company.

          2. AA*

            Good on you for recognizing that and supporting her! I am exactly the same way, and spent my whole upbringing under my parents house being forced into activities that I disliked because they thought it was unhealthy / unnatural for me to be more inclined towards solo activities (keeping in mind I did indeed have an active social life). When I was very young it was helpful, but when I look back at ages 15-18…. so much of my time was wasted on things I hated, and by the time I was old enough to ‘do what I want’, it was too late, no such thing as free time.

            You’re a good parent : )

          3. New Senior Manager*

            She’s not alone. Introvert here who prefers her own company. People are great, don’t get me wrong, but I prefer them in small doses throughout the day.

            1. Cassidy*

              This is me exactly. I can readily socialize but prefer my own company, with other people in “small doses.”

              Also, what AA said about being a kid and being forced to socialize (not by my parents, who lovingly accepted and supported my introverted nature) by relatives who’d push me to play with neighborhood kids I didn’t know, when all I wanted was to hunt for rocks, wade and build small dams in the nearby creek, read, and otherwise not have to accommodate anyone else.

              I am terribly sorry for the circumstances, of course, and feel very lucky to be employed, but being at home has been wonderful.

              But I miss being able to see my parents and brother whenever I want to, and worry for those who are at the mercy of employees and relatives who frame the pandemic as a matter of individual choice and Constitutional freedoms. What those employees and relatives ought to be angry at is a federal government that doesn’t give three shirts about anything other than good p.r. and a top-shelf bottle of bleach.

    2. hamburke*

      2 weeks… I have 2 more weeks of keeping track of my 7th grader’s classwork! I’m not struggling to help him with the work (I taught 7th grade in another lifetime), just tracking him doing the work! Making lists and schedules isn’t working and I can’t spend all of my time sitting and refocusing him (husband and I already share an office)…Bless those teachers!

      I hired out the Spanish – DuoLingo – and if the school doesn’t like it, they can send him back to Spanish 1 next year!

  7. Secondhand genius*

    How are the social workers doing? Are you getting hazard pay, or working remotely, or dealing with secondary trauma, or getting excited about new resources? Are you OK? How’s it going, social workers?

    1. Donovanable*

      Am a social worker in a fairly cushy job (I do not work in hospice or long term care, for instance)
      No hazard pay for us–I don’t know any place that is, and I work in a hotspot.

      I haaaate doing my job from home (talking to people about their sexual trauma while sitting in my bedroom sure is SOMETHING), but it’s keeping me and my high-risk partner safe, and that’s worth everything else.

      I’m getting more sold on remote therapy, but I still would rather be face to face. Group therapy by phone/video is kind of a disaster in that it feels like doing 1:1 but with an audience.

      tl;dr: …meeeeeh….?

      2. Secondhand genius*

        “Group therapy by phone/video is kind of a disaster in that it feels like doing 1:1 but with an audience.”

        OOF. That sounds rough. Have they thought about making adaptations to group therapy now that it’s remote, or is it business as usual?

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Working remotely and struggling. Its so hard to do paperwork over the phone

      1. Secondhand genius*

        What are ways you are able to keep your paperwork confidential? I feel like my only option is to keep it on the kitchen table, which is not ideal for client privacy

        1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          I’ve got a lot of it on my locked down computer that nobody else is allowed to touch

    3. Anonymous because reasons*

      I’m finding it really tiring doing assessments over the phone. Not being able to see people’s body language to help with communication (especially when people have a communication disability) is hard. I’m not as productive as I was face to face.
      My employers are good though. And my line manager, although furloughed right now, has been fantastic.
      Thanks for asking. How are you doing?

      1. BethDH*

        I am not a social worker but I consult on things that people have a lot of feelings and self-bashing responses to and I’m really frustrated by not being able to see their body language AND use my own. I can’t imagine how much more frustrating it is in your context!

    4. Old dog*

      I’m a sw providing outpatient therapy. We went remote 3/16 and are using a video platform. Folks with more serious chronic illnesses seem to be doing ok due to the “time out” of staying at home and fewer external pressures. Those who typically work are stressed about the pandemic and the thought of either losing work or returning to an unsafe work environment. Lack of social interaction and activity is impacting people. I’m seeing lowered motivation and mild depressive symptoms.

      1. Maxie*

        I work for a homeless shelter. All case managers and shelter staff who do any onsite work get a weekly bonus. These onsite hours are minimal, t work is remote and staff get full pay regardless of hours worked.

      2. Atalanta0jess*

        hahaha, no.

        I work in community behavioral health, though am not a SW. We definitely are not getting hazard pay, the money just isn’t there. I saw recently that something like 6/10 behavioral health agencies are at risk of insolvency right now.

        1. Exhausted Frontline Worker*

          This has been keeping me up at night. My agency is really good at fundraising so we’re not at risk for layoffs and we’re getting a teeny tiny amount of hazard pay. But there are many agencies in my city that have shut down in-person services, even though about 75% of clients don’t have cell phones or internet. Even if they did provide phones, which they’re not, we have a lot of older folks who would struggle with the technology. It’s a huge fuck you to our clients, but also these agencies are dependent on monetary donations to stay afloat, and no one is going to donate to the agency that went fully remote when the soup kitchen in the next neighborhood is still serving meals (and rightfully so!) I’m worried when the dust settles, many social service and community mental health agencies will go under, and there will simultaneously be a greater need for our services due to the economy tanking. While I’m so thankful for both my job security and to be doing work that is impactful right now, I was overworked and underpaid BEFORE corona.

    6. Artemesia*

      I have a BIL who does social work in England — he is keeping in touch on line with some of the people he was assisting but he is not in contact now AND he is getting his full salary covered. The safety nets most developed countries take for granted seem impossible to Americans who have been taught they aren’t worth much at work and any hazards of the business cycle are to be borne by themselves.

      1. Cassidy*

        ‘The safety nets most developed countries take for granted seem impossible to Americans who have been taught they aren’t worth much at work and any hazards of the business cycle are to be borne by themselves”

        This x 1000

  8. Mission Driven Seeker*

    How does one find a good career counselor? I have skills and experience that I think there will be a new demand for, given the Covid-19 crisis, and would like to have help in figuring out how and where to market them.

    1. irene adler*

      One avenue would be to seek the advice of those already in the field. Look on-line for professional organizations in the industry you are interested in working in. Contact those that have chapters local to you. Ask them for referrals to someone(s) that knows the industry and can offer guidance/career advice/counseling, etc.

    2. Lyudie*

      I found a career coach a few years ago on LinkedIn, they have a thing where you can find a professional for various things and people will send you messages and you can figure out who is a good fit. I found someone local who helped me with my resume and talking through things, it was worth it I think.

    3. epi*

      I would check out your alma mater and alumni networks first. Some schools provide those types of services to grads. A good friend was able to use her undergrad alma mater’s premed counselor when she applied to medical school four or five years after graduation. In fact, I graduated in 2009 and all of my friends’ best career change experiences involved going back and getting advice from someone at their school.

      I know college career counselors sometimes get a bad reputation here, but the ones connected to a specific school, major, or career path can be quite good. And I’ve seen plenty of stories here of independent counselors who were no better– just self-certified life coaches preying in the unemployed. Someone connected to your school will also know which alumni actually want to be contacted for networking.

  9. Bazzoom*

    I am interested in freelancing in the future. I have been looking at Linked profiles of people with skills similar to mine who are a step or two above me in job title or who have launched a freelance consulting business. Would it be awkward for me to contact them to ask for an info interview? What would be the best approach to take? What questions would you ask? I am highly interested in what aspects of their skillset brings in the most business. Is that a fair question to ask?

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think it’s fair to ask, I also wouldn’t be surprised if they got back to you and asked you to pay them for a consultation. I’ve had a handful of people approach me over the past year to ‘pick my brain’ and I’m happy to answer a couple questions in broad generalities. Once the questions veered towards more business/strategy I pushed back, said I’d be happy to go into more detail, gave them my business card and would close and ask for an appointment and write my rates on the card. That always separated the lookers from the buyers.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Lol likewise. I wish people would just say, “Hey, I think you’re pretty sharp and was wondering if you’d be willing to dole out some nuggets of wisdom for free.”

        2. filosofickle*

          “Pick your brain” is so predatory. Please, people, find another phrase!

    2. Betty (the other betty)*

      There might be groups in your area that meet to discuss their field and businesses. That would be a great place to start connecting with people. Once you’ve met someone, they’ll probably be much more receptive to meeting for coffee to answer some of your questions. Try Meetup .com.

      I’ve been running my own business for more than 10 years. I have a large community of colleagues in the same and related fields, most of whom I met through meetups and other groups.

  10. Potatoes gonna potate*

    I had another conversation with a recruiter a few weeks back and it seemed to go well. My application was sent out and he actually followed up with me and we had a good chat I think. And like I anticipated, he did ask a lot about college and what I did between graduation and starting my recent position (2011-2014). 

    This was a bit embarrassing but during the call, he asked if I have any experience with “floater businesses?” I….had no idea what that was. I said I could learn it. He paused and said OK and moved on. After a few seconds, I said “oh did you mean flow through entities? Yes, 85% of my work experience is in that! Im so sorry for misunderstanding!” We had a good laugh at that. Is it bad that I misunderstood and waited a minute to ask? If I hadn’t figured out, who knows. He would have thought that my entire resume history is a lie or something. Ugh. 

    Anyways….provided that misunderstanding doesn’t ruin my chances, it at what point should I mention I’m pregnant? or ask about benefits? If I get a job, I do plan to go back to work after the baby. No idea yet if it will be remote or whatever based on whats going on. 

    1. another Hero*

      I think there have been questions on here before about interviewing while pregnant. Alison recommended telling them once you get the offer – don’t want it to affect their decision, but of course you want to know what to expect before you commit. Link in reply.

      2. Potatoes gonna potate*

        That makes sense, I’ve read those but I wasn’t sure if working with a recruiter vs directly with the company has different nuances.

    2. oh dear*

      I’m sure you’re fine — you figured out what he meant and corrected for it. People mishear things!

      Don’t mention you’re pregnant at all until you have a written offer in hand.

    3. SpamItSpamItGood*

      For a good job/boss, I think it’s a point in your favor that you were were able to think in parallel, admit fault and laugh about it. Versus the person who doesn’t correct it at all. Or someone who’s all “Oh, you used the wrong term. The correct term is Flow Through Entities.”

      1. Amy Sly*

        You demonstrated that you were able to figure out what he meant, as opposed to what he said, which is too rare of a skill. You then demonstrated the ability to ensure that he got the information he needed politely. And from the sound of it, you weren’t stumped by every question and had to constantly backtrack the conversation. I’d say you did absolutely fine.

    4. Parenthetically*

      Oh bless your heart!! I absolutely think the “floater/flow-through” thing is on him, not on you, and it’s great that you caught it. 95% chance that he’s more embarrassed about it than you are.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        One can hope…I had a recruiter argue with me about something job specific that they had completely wrong (like how to calculate mortgage rates when the job was in manufacturing finance). I told them that their question had zero relevance to the job position so why were they asking about that. They informed me that they knew more about the job than I did and they would report this to the hiring manager. Did I mention this was the internal recruiter for my current company? And that the job was for a position within my same team and related to cost of goods sold and inventory?
        I said ok I’ll go ahead and transfer you to him…he is my current boss. That particular recruiter was taken off our postings. He had apparently Googled a bunch of random finance terms to make sure candidates had the proper knowledge base but didn’t take into consideration that a) I was an internal applicant already on the team in question or b) what the job actually entailed and the terms he was using were more for commercial and personal finance (which is very different from cost accounting).

    5. Artemesia*

      My daughter got her last job while pregnant — and it has gone well (baby is 2 now and the job is WFH safe and also going well). Don’t mention it until you have an offer. The only time this is not appropriate is if they are hiring for a particular project where you wouldn’t be available at the critical time for the project. Otherwise, get the offer ask about maternity leave policies — then discuss your maternity leave issues.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        No…? I got laid off at the end of March due to COVID so been looking. I freelance on the side occasionally but that’s not steady work.

    7. Potatoes gonna potate*

      Good advice everyone, thank you. Just wasn’t sure if it’s different nuance with recruiters than applying directly with employers.

  11. ThinMint*

    To help me as a manager, I’d like to start asking my direct reports to submit weekly status updates via email. I don’t think that’s an unheard of thing to do, but I am worried about the timing of it. Our jobs are not currently in jeopardy. We are in higher ed and pretty insulated from the furloughs right now based on what part of higher ed that we are in. But I don’t want them to think these status updates are being used for any purpose related to evaluating staff for potential furloughs.

    I feel like it’s best to mention that directly but I know some of my staff will have never considered that until I say it and then won’t believe me.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I would actually appreciate it if my boss did this, but just on a weekly basis. Right now, no one is keeping tabs on my workload and it is out of control.
      If you frame the request as just wanting to know who has room for additional work, then it should be fine.

    2. JKJK*

      If anything about your working environment has changed (ie WFH, serving classes differently, etc) I think you can just be explicit about why you’re asking for this without even mentioning furlough. “To help me keep track of who is doing what and to foster good communication since we’ve gone remote/started x/whatever, I’d like to start getting weekly status updates from you all about what you’re working on. These will be used to help me make sure everything is moving along and to distribute work fairly” etc.

    3. Anonymous because reasons*

      Do you have a reason for asking then to do this at this stage of the lockdown, and not before?
      I think if there is a valid reason then fine, but bear in mind that if they’re producing good work already from home they may feel that it’s a bit ‘micromanagery’ to ask them now. It might also come across like you don’t trust them to work unsupervised.

      1. ThinMint*

        I do. It doesn’t actually have to do with any work from home change, just me finally settling on a system that I can easily digest and keep track of for reference later. There is also an employee on the team that is being required to do this as part of a PIP and that is what sparked the idea.

        1. Alice*

          I’m not saying not to do it — you’re the manager and it sounds like it will be a good process. But from the employee perspective, if it came across as “from now on we are going to treat everyone on the team like we treat the low performer” I wouldn’t be thrilled.
          If it was “this has worked so well with Tom that I want to implement it with everyone,” maybe I could get behind it. If it’s “This has allowed me to document Tom’s shortcomings in preparation for laying him off, so I want to track everyone else the same way,” I’d be react badly (internally).
          The more you can focus on, “these short weekly reports will make it easy for me to digest information, to refer back to past accomplishments, and to identify situations where I need to intervene to help you reprioritize work or rebalance assignments across the team,” the better.
          Also: decide if you want a summary of the week, a list of important accomplishments, or what.

        2. Melody Pond*

          I second @Alice’s thoughts about this.

          I have seen this in all of my previous workplaces. It seems like there is a tendency in management to solve problems with low performance by instituting an across-the-board process change that now applies to everyone (high and low performers alike), where everyone is now required to do more detailed documentation or has more bureaucratic hoops to jump through. And the goal of this appears to be avoiding the issues or challenges for the team or management, that the low performer caused.

          But – and I cannot emphasize this enough – if you have someone who’s truly ill-suited for the work, or whose core behaviors as a worker are mismatched to the requirements of the role, no amount of extra documentation or status updates is going to prevent those low-performance issues from occurring. These measures are no substitute for actively managing the worker and holding them accountable for their performance, including and up to letting them go, if they can’t meet your needs (which in fairness it does sound like you did this part, with a PIP?).

          I would also question the requirement for weekly status emails as a means of you getting what you need to manage the work your team is doing. Candidly, that sounds to me like you’re offloading basic managerial work onto your employees – unless the written status updates you are asking for are SUPER short, like short enough to fit in a single tweet. But assuming that’s not the case, why not institute regular one-on-ones either weekly or every two weeks, where your employee can just talk through these status updates, and you can take notes on what you think is essential?

          1. Melody Pond*

            I see now in a later post that you are already doing 1:1 and that you’ve said:

            I really don’t want those to turn into the kinds of list updates I am looking for in the weekly status report, which is why I want to do both.

            I guess I would ask – why not?

            It’s totally possible that I may be having a negative gut reaction to this because I’ve had it imposed on me badly in previous jobs, and I’ve always been a super detail-oriented, fairly high performer. And I just don’t want to spend my time writing out updates about what I’ve done to my manager – in part, because I’m so detail-oriented that it would become very easy for every one to turn into a novel and consume hours and hours (which then takes away from the work I signed on to do, which I do well). I do see that you’re trying to put thought into it, which seems good.

            But I still am curious why it wouldn’t work to carve out 15 minutes of these 1:1s for a more structured update section that mirrors what you’re looking for in these written updates.

            1. TechWorker*

              Possibly because they have a large team and adding on 15 minutes to everyone’s time is not useful? (It’ll take maybe that time for each person to ‘remember’ their list and write it down but def nowhere near that to read it…). Some managers have 10-15 reports so an extra 15min each is a significant time sink for purely factual info…

      2. Double A*

        I think it’s pretty easy to explain, considering going into lockdown and shifting to remote work was often done on the fly. “Now that we’ve settled into our remote work set up a bit more, I realize I’d like/need more information about X for Y purposes.”

        If you do any kind of all-staff meeting, I think that could be a good time to launch it, or maybe send out a note in advance of the meeting and ask people to bring their thoughts about it — Is there anything they’d like to add/revise about the format you’re proposing? Any concerns or information they would like to be able to share about on a regular basis?

        If people are given a chance to give input and know it’s an open dialogue they’re usually fine.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If I were one of your direct reports, I would be more interested in what you’re going to use the updates for and why you want them, rather than what you will not use them for. You say it will help you as a manager– can you articulate why? Even something as simple as, “With all of us working remotely, I don’t have the benefit of chatting with you about what you’re working on. I’d like to start getting weekly updates, just to keep me in the loop. Of course, I’m available at any time if you need help with something.” Then give them an example of what you want in an update. A bullet point? A quick summary? A list of tasks accomplished? (Sidenote: I would rather provide the first two of these.)

      1. Brownie*

        Oh man, please do not include that third. My bosses want a task list for everything we’ve worked on, not just finished, each week and it is a complete production killer. They say it’s for WFH auditing, so that if someone says we’re slacking because we’re at home they can show the task list of what was done every day on every project. Which… no. I’m overloaded and overworked as is, adding something where I have to spend time and resources tracking everything I do when I’m simultaneously juggling multiple tasks for many projects? It’s a productivity and morale killer.

    5. Sunshine on a rainy day*

      I wouldn’t mention that. Focus on why you do want these reports for (how they’ll help you to accomplish your goals, what the work benefit is) rather than on what they’re not for.

      And separately, make sure your employees are being reassured and kept in the loop on the status of their roles/your institution’s position on furloughs etc.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      My manager has us submit a quick update at the end of the week, but they specifically framed it not as a “tell me everything you did”, but a “let me know if there’s something I should know/wouldn’t know from your general work”. So I don’t tell them every little thing I did, but small things they might not know otherwise, like if there’s a delay on a project for an outside reason and that insight might be helpful if a higher asks about it, or a quick update on an ongoing task I’m working on, etc. I know they trust me to get their work done, they just want to know if there’s anything they should know.

    7. NW Mossy*

      If you get their buy-in on the problem you’re trying to solve, it’ll be a lot easier to bring them along for the solution. Also, the practice of crafting this message will force you to think carefully about what you want and why you want it. That authenticity will help you stand behind your request in a way that people believe, because it’s genuine.

      You don’t say exactly why you’re wanting status updates, so I’ll craft an example out of my own experience:

      “Hey team! With the slowdown in new sales, I know that many of you are taking up different efforts to help the business since you have some spare time. I’d like to be able to pull together a snapshot of what everyone’s working on and how things are progressing, since these projects don’t flow into our normal reporting. Having this info will help us toot our horn about our successes so far, as well as address any roadblocks you’re facing and make good choices about what projects to pick up after the current ones end.

      To that end, please send me a brief rundown of your active projects at the end of each week. No need to get deeply detailed since we can cover that in your 1:1 – just a few sentences on what it is, where you’re at, what your next step is, and any blockers you need help with.”

    8. OtterB*

      Agree with the others to say what you want it for. I have in the past done weekly updates using a template of what I did this week, what I expect to do next week, and any problems/issues/barriers. Not in great detail. It was actually interesting for me also, because I hadn’t realized how often things jumped around. “Last week I planned to do A, B, and C this week, but X and Y dropped on me unexpectedly. X is finished, Y is waiting for review, A and B are now planned for next week, and C turned out to overlap with OtherColleague’s project so she has taken it.” I also found it made me more productive because I was more focused. What was I doing? Oh yeah, these three things this week.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Supplying a template and an example of what you want with the announcement email would be extremely helpful, ThinMint.

    9. Lucette Kensack*

      First, you need to get very clear about why you want them to do this. Do you need more information in order to manage them well, help them prioritize their work, etc.? Are they not getting done what you want them to get done? Are you getting questions from others about what they are working on that you are not able to answer? Are you having trouble figuring out how you can be most helpful to them? Are you concerned that they aren’t working as much as they claim to be? Etc.

      Then, you need to think about what the best tactic is to meet the needs you identified. I’ll show my cards: I think it’s unlikely that an email status report is going to be the best tactic. Are you having one-on-one meetings with each of them on a regular basis? Can you integrate a status report into that conversation?

      Finally, if you decide that you really do need them to write status reports, explain why you need that information and how you’re going to use it.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      A weekly status report is totally normal. My manager always required this even when in the office as a lot of our sales team was remote anyway, and it’s due by EoB Thursdays because we have a team call Fridays. I write mine as more of a “to-do” list and cross off what’s done for the week. The sales people generally write theirs in terms of accounts called on, prospecting, client status, etc.
      Ideally, you should’ve started this when you went to WFH if you haven’t done them previously. But there is no reason you can’t institute it now as a way to help keep track of what everyone on the team is working on. In fact, you may find some of your employee already do something of the sort.
      It might also ally fears to keep the lists fairly high level like project status type lists as opposed to requesting anything more granular “time worked on” this or that type details.

    11. Madeleine Matilda*

      I’d also suggest regular one on ones so you can have a discussion about the work that is being done. I find that much more useful than just a status report. My team leads usually send a status report ahead of our one on ones which helps us have an agenda for the meeting.

      1. ThinMint*

        I have 1:1s with them weekly, but the format of those is far less structured and in a good way. We problem-solve current issues, discuss what is upcoming that directly impacts them etc. I really don’t want those to turn into the kinds of list updates I am looking for in the weekly status report, which is why I want to do both.

    12. Artemesia*

      In a shift to WFH it would be expected to have some new supervision strategies and I would frame it that way — you need to keep on top of everyone’s workload and are not in a position to do so informally at the office.

    13. T. Boone Pickens*

      If you decide to implement this for the love of everything holy please make sure the report takes less than 5-10 minutes to put together. Nothing is going to make a top performing employee go from zero to nuclear than having them spend an hour on Friday cranking out a status report that you might not look at. Do you currently do 1:1s with your team? If so, there’s the perfect time for status updates. Also, if you already do 1:1s I’m going to wonder why you need me to do an additional status report.

      1. TechWorker*

        The way it works at my company in general (eg I’m a manager but I inherited the system) is that the status email is sent on a Monday, prior to the in person check-in. It’s for both task updates (spent 3 days on this, half a day finishing off that, a day on new thing) and to raise anything that’s blocking or that they want to talk about. It means that for the actual 1-1 the factual stuff is out of the way & I can make sure I’m prepped for what they need from me. Seems to work well in general.

    14. NotAPirate*

      Instead of a weekly report email (one more thing to do, and writing those up is going to slow down actually doing work) , can you start using some tool like Kaban or Trello? That lets you track whose working on what and what pieces are held up by other things. It also lets you reprioritze things quickly as needs change. (You can see at a glance Milo has 13 active tabs and Jess has only 6 and add people to new stuff as they finish their tabs).

    15. Sheila E.*

      I have weekly 1:1s with my direct reports. When we were in the office, they were in person, but relatively short – could last anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour depending on workload and any departmental updates I need to share with them. I keep a notebook specifically for those meetings where I list projects and tasks that they discuss, which I review for the next meeting if there’s anything that needs to be followed-up on or updated.

      Now that we’re WFH, I still have weekly phone calls with a similar structure. I also have a group virtual meeting, more so as an opportunity for the team to chat and brainstorm and have some interaction with each other while we’re apart.

    16. International Klein Blue*

      I think this is a great idea. Yeah, I’d like to know that this is to help you better track status on your people’s work and not some dastardly scheme to decide who gets thrown off the sleigh. But if you told me this was just to help you manage in this new WFH world, I’d have no problem with it.

      In the past, I’ve had managers who wanted a weekly meeting to go over this stuff – frankly, I’d have preferred a weekly written status report (with an optional follow-up call or meeting to clear up concerns or details).

      One caution: I’d keep each of these reports private between myself and each employee. The last thing you want is for people to get all competitive over who submitted the ‘best’ report, or who got the ‘most’ work done.

    17. Diluted Tortoiseshell*

      Do you do one-on-ones? This is a great place to transition to status updates.

      1. ThinMint*

        I’ll be honest. I do have one on ones, I do take notes in them. But the notes are detailed. When I have to provide my stuff to my manager monthly and evaluate performance mid-year and at the end, I am drawn to these small updates that, if always in the same format and sent to OneNote as pages, I can click through at a much faster rate.
        I think it would help my employees as well because the littler random things you do through the weeks can often get missed, but it would help them (and me) to know that even though 1 report may not take too much time, I see that she wrote 32 reports this term for different customer requests. That kind of stuff… and it’s not stuff we would touch on in one on ones because she doesn’t need my assistance and it’s a routine part of her job.

    18. HR Exec Popping In*

      I would ask you to think about what you are trying to accomplish. Is it to understand how they are spending their time? What their workload is? What they are accomplishing (or not)? I find that conversation works more effectively. That way you can discuss the work, ask questions and generally engage.

      FWIW, years ago I had a manager that did this and I hated it. Creating and submitting a weekly status report added about an additional 1-2 hours of work per week. And I don’t think he ever did anything with them other than file them away. No questions, no comments, no feedback. It felt like busy work.

    19. Jemima Bond*

      For what it’s worth the three people I manage do what the whole agency has been instructed to do if working from home, which is they drop me a quick email when they log in saying morning Jemima, today I plan to work on a new design for llama hair clips, and maybe start on alpaca hair ribbons if the colour charts come in today. I reply hello sounds good I’ll chase that colour chart for you. Then when they are finishing for the day, they say ok I’m logging off now, IT was a bit glitchy but the hair clip files are in the accessories folder. And I say thanks have a nice evening.
      My boss calls me each morning to say hi etc.
      This is very much framed as being for the purpose of staff welfare; an opportunity to discuss any issues and check we are all ok, as much as to resolve work matters.
      Nobody thinks is micromanaging at all a and tbh if we only communicated with manager/staff once a week I think that would be strange and isolating, considering normally we are all in the same office.

    20. Dancing Otter*

      Consulting background, here. We always prepared a status update in advance of our weekly meeting with a client. Not extremely detailed, but it guided the discussion while providing a record to which the client could refer later or in discussions with their higher-ups. We also followed up with a confirmation of what was decided (if anything) and agreed-upon next steps.
      Each status report was fairly quick, as we simply took the previous week’s report and updated it. (And gave the file a new name, except when we forgot and much gnashing of teeth ensued.) The first one took longer, as we had to enter all the tasks and milestones, the distribution list if it went to multiple people, but we had a template.

  12. BadGuySally*

    I’m gonna sound like the bad guy, but I’m getting tired of kids busting into video conferences. At first it was cute and everyone waved and asked silly questions, but I think it encouraged kids to come in anytime they hear conference voices. I had a meeting about furloughs that was delayed 5 minutes because the director’s son had to say hi and show off his sunglasses while we were waiting to find out if we had jobs.
    I had another call regarding a serious issue and there was a 10 minute meltdown because manager’s son wanted to say hi.
    I know there isn’t anything that can be done, because everyone is in a tough spot with daycare and WFH. I’m just venting.

    1. Anonymous because reasons*

      I don’t mind it, but it’s incredibly rude that people don’t mute themselves while it’s happening!

    2. Not a Girl Boss*

      I think there’s a huge difference between “my child needs something for me” and “my child is interested on being on ‘TV'”. The second one I agree is not cute anymore.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +100

        At this point, most of my coworkers will mute if their kids decides to “come hang out” with them on a call so the meeting can proceed, but that doesn’t work if it’s the person leading the meeting!

    3. another Hero*

      Is there also essential info? If not, pop in occasionally/skim/don’t pay it too much attention. If so, ask to take other stuff to a separate chat bc with more posts you worry about missing something important

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Someone internal was on a call this week with her kids yelling and carrying on among themselves. They’re kind of the worst ages–3-5, so I have sympathy, but also, I cannot hear and I hate needing to yell myself to be heard. It’s frustrating. Then one needed to go potty and she told her to go ahead and go, but he had to confirm that she would come wipe him. That softened up my frustration a little, because that is just life I don’t have to deal with anymore.

      I don’t think I could deal well with the cutesy things you’re talking about though. This isn’t a call with Grandma.

      1. pancakes*

        Whoever was running the meeting should’ve taken charge of asking the person to mute themself.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          It was a small working meeting and she was key to the discussion. Facepalm.

      2. BethDH*

        I certainly don’t encourage the cutesy stuff, but my 2.5 year old really doesn’t get the difference at this point between it being grandma on the video call and work people on the video call, partly because there are so many calls that aren’t at one end of the spectrum or the other — the adult friends, the work buddies when it’s a coffee chat and not a meeting, the seminars where I’m muted and just need to listen. We don’t have enough space or devices to say something like “when Dada is on a meeting on his computer you can’t go in”.
        I know you are being overall supportive and understanding of this situation, I’m just feeling particularly frustrated because the lines between work and home are so elided at this point that I feel like my toddler can’t even figure out what the expectations are.

    5. BB*

      Oh gosh. Ya the examples you gave are ones where there should have been more of an effort made to contain the situation. I have no issue with kids popping up in meetings, but if it’s a meeting to update people on their employment status – it needs to be handled with greater sensitivity.

      Our CEO has two young kiddos at home (SO still working outside the home) and it’s impossible for her to prevent them from walking in etc. so the more sensitive announcements have been made by another member of the senior management team that does not have that factor to contend with.

      Heck, when I was waiting for the meeting to start on the day I was finding out if I was furloughed or not – I wanted to scream at the hold music. I could barely think straight. I would not have responded well to having to sit with that feeling longer than necessary, and with a fake smile on my face, just because ‘omg think of the children’.

      1. Not a Girl Boss*

        I agree with this. I don’t have kids but I do have two dogs, who, turns out, bark nonstop all day long? For sensitive meetings I’m careful to schedule them when the mailman isn’t due to arrive, put two layers of doors between us, give them their favorite bones, etc. I’m not saying its the same as kids, because its not. But I feel like furlough calls are a time where you make special arrangements.

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          Ugh. Yeah. I have a coworker who has barky dogs, acknowledges she does, and yet also sucks at muting herself. We got to hear barking a few times yesterday, and a distinct “yeah baby, that’s OK” after one of the doctors on the call asked if we could go ahead with that decision. (Coworker was of course talking to one of her dogs unmuted; the doc handled it by basically not acknowledging the weirdness.)

          1. Not a Girl Boss*

            hahaha, love the yeah baby.

            I have never understood people who don’t default to mute at all times? I only unmute myself specifically when I have something to say, and its so much the same with everyone at my company that the conversation is someone stilted as we wait for people to unmute before every sentence.

            1. Windchime*

              I don’t know, but I was in a big Zoom meeting yesterday where someone was trying to do a demo and I finally had to hang up. One person had dialed in and then proceeded to noisily wash their pots and pans. The meeting host was somehow unable to universally mute everyone. He kept saying, “Even if you think you are muted, please check and make sure”. No go. The pot and pan washer kept merrily banging away while the presenter was gamely trying to carry on. I finally just hung up.

    6. Art3mis*

      I had a meeting a couple of weeks ago with an internal career coach, a program our HR is now offering, and the person’s kids were doing gymnastics and kept popping up to the camera every minute or so. It was very distracting.

    7. Fikly*

      It’s flipped at my company – for our meeting near Mother’s Day, we had some kids do planned cameos, and they were all “can we leave now?”

    8. R*

      You aren’t the bad guy. If I know I have to talk on a call, I need to park my kid with some cartoons and snacks. If I’m just listening and she is being annoying, I have to be on mute.

      The people that mute my husband when he is talking and I haven’t managed to wrangle the screaming child out the room yet? THEY are the bad guys. Like jeez, give us a (literal) minute before giving up and muting some one who is trying their best to do their job.

    9. Alice*

      There’s video conferences and then there’s serious issue, livelihoods at stake, let’s try extra hard to be professional and respectful video conferences. Sunglasses during a furlough discussion? I would be fuming.

    10. WellRed*

      I’ve been lucky this hasn’t been an issue for me, but I would also have zero qualms saying, “let’s reschedule this” when it comes to something like a 10 minute meltdown.

    11. CupcakeCounter*

      My son was threatened with the loss of anything and everything fun if he interrupted me during a meeting for anything other than serious injury or the house burning down.

      1. Anonymom*

        Yep. Exactly this. Being that I’m the ONLY Mom on most every call, inevitably I’m automatically blamed by someone for any “kid noises”. But guess what? Other than that first day? Its never been my kids. Not once. Because they like their electronics and playing sports if we get those back ever, and they’re old enough to understand that I need to work.

        I even got blamed for a very obviously a young baby squalling – and I do not have a baby in my house!!!!!! (Sorry. Sore point.)

        1. tangerineRose*

          Did you let them know the noises aren’t your kids? That type of thing might eventually shut this down.

      2. NGL*

        I know someone who phrases it as “the house burning down or arterial blood” – so not just a scraped knee, someone better be in danger of bleeding out if you’re going to interrupt!

        My kiddo is only 2 though, so he doesn’t get it yet (and luckily my spouse is able to keep him contained/entertained during important meetings. He is a really good excuse to get out of social calls though)

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Reading these are making me squirm as my “inner kid” comes out. My mother would have straight up made me think I was gonna die [and she spanked me only once that I can actually recall, so it wasn’t in that corporal punishment kind of way!]

        My most vivid memory is of her disciplining me at a garage sale. I threw a hissy, she snatched up the books we were going to buy, put them back and took my butt home. I still miss those books I never got. If it was the age of electronics, she wouldn’t have just taken them away, she would have given them away and things that were given away were not replaced because that would defeat giving them away.

        I wouldn’t even interrupt her phone calls with friends/family, that’s unacceptable.

    12. Guacamole Bob*

      I have twin 6 year olds and I’d consider that kind of interruption unacceptable from my kids. Yes, they occasionally walk into the room when I’m on a call and ask for something or need a minor injury dealt with or stuck legos pried apart or what have you. But it’s pretty possible to contain that to less than a minute and I mute. The kids don’t get to say hi to my colleagues.

      It’s harder with toddlers, I know, but kids should not be actually participating on work video calls (as opposed to occasionally being visible or audible), especially ones on serious topics. Popping in to a discussion with a friendly coworker or a friendly internal team call, maybe, but that’s pretty workplace and person dependent and should be rare, and only if the topic and level of formality allow.

    13. White Peonies*

      I feel like everyone is trying to get their kids to make an appearance now. At first it was one kid here or there half dressed, and messy haired appearances asking for a snack or asking what are you doing. Now we have kids full on with their hair done and dressed well appearing at 8 am on a Tuesday and not leaving sitting through the whole call. On Wednesday my boss had to ask one of my co-workers to sign off the call 20 minutes into our hour meeting, because her 3 kids under 5 were all sitting together in her chair un-muted while we tried to work on a financial plan.

      2. Jackers*

        This is going to sound really judgmental and horrible of me, but I get the sense there are some (SOME, not all and not even most) who want to show off how awesome they are at multitasking. I can do my highly demanding job and be super parent at the same time! I am on a conference calls with another woman frequently and her two young kids are always in the background and she doesn’t mute. The most recent was she was overseeing them play in the bathtub. And while they were screaming and splashing in the background and I couldn’t hear anyone over them, I couldn’t help but wonder WHY, of all times, she chose that time, 12 noon during a call that had been on our calendars for over a week, to let them play in the tub and make that much noise.

    14. lazy intellectual*

      Noooo that is terrible. The problem isn’t just kids interrupted a call for 10 minutes – they are doing it during very bad timing.

      I work in a fairly young company (20s and 30s), so people’s kids are basically babies. They will hang out on their laps (which I find cute), but it would be insensitive for this stuff to be happening during serious conversations!

      1. Cassidy*

        It’s the context in which that delay occurs that matters.

        I find it just plain weird for anyone to regard employees, who might be about to find out that they are losing their jobs, as being big crybabies who can’t manage a 5-minute delay consisting of a tone-deaf messenger who can’t resist showing off his or her kid FIRST.

        I mean – seriously? The employees are to be scorned?

    16. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      That sounds really annoying. I have three kids and many of my coworkers have kids, and that hasn’t been an issue in my office. People mute when they aren’t talking and no one is doing the “isn’t my kid cute” thing. I think we are all really stressed (pandemic has made our work much busier) so no one has time for that. It sounds really grating and my kids would know better than to interrupt me like that and ham for the camera.

    17. Cassidy*

      I have a colleague who shoves his kid down our throats to the extent that it seems he is obsessed, to her detriment.

      She is 7 or 8 years old and it’s obvious she is going to have a very tough time having a life of her own once she’s an adult.

  13. Anonymous because reasons*

    I’m in a work group chat where the group admin is basically Charles Boyle when it comes to sending Facebook memes and posts etc.
    Now others post family stuffon there, like their kids’ achievements, or even videos from their recitals :/

    I’m not even on Facebook, and I hate all that cutesy/inspirational stuff.

    Is there a polite way to get out of it? I actually think it’s useful for work related matters but it’s not often used for that, and it’s worse now we’re in lockdown! There are a lot of ‘chin up’ type posts.

    Yesterday I deleted 75 messages that had nothing to do with work. Today it was 54.

    2. Ali G*

      Is it a Slack or Zoom channel or similar? I think you can just “leave.” If it’s an email list you can send that crap to a separate folder and just empty it from time to time.

      1. Anonymous because reasons*

        Should have mentioned – it’s WhatsApp! I can just leave but the group is very occasionally useful. I guess I have to balance it with how much it’s annoying me right now or ever.

    3. another Hero*

      Is there also essential info? If not, pop in occasionally/skim/don’t pay it too much attention. If so, ask to take other stuff to a separate chat bc with more posts you worry about missing something important

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Can you ask that the chat be kept more work-focused? Say something about how you want to make sure you’re not missing out on anything work-related, but you’re getting overwhelmed with the constant updates (possibly even citing the 50+ daily non-work messages – that’s a lot!). Could you even suggest two groups – one for work and one for more personal topics? That way you can mute the personal one/not join but still get the work updates.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        That’s what I’m thinking — frame it as a great new thing she can create. It’s something new! social! Everyone who wants to can sign up! Key being, people would opt into social vs work-only.
        But think first about the people in your company — would they get lazy and mis-categorize the posts? If yes, you risk work-critical things going on the social-only place… and things going to BOTH places.

    5. WellRed*

      Speak up! Suggest a separate thread or room or whatever for people to post that crap and leave the other one for work related communication.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      To save the other pop-culture illiterates (like myself) – Charles Boyle is an inept character on the US series police comedy Brooklyn Nine Nine.

    7. Anonymous because reasons*

      Thanks all! Yes, I was hoping to be able to extricate myself from it without using words…kind of slinking off unnoticed (although we are a small team so that wouldn’t happen!), but that is not really going to work, so – although I hate any kind of dissent – I will have to use my words and be an adult. Gah.

  14. freelance writing work*

    Looking to pick up a little freelance editing / writing work (e.g. editing journal articles for non-native English speakers, business writing work). I know, I know, this is terrible timing with the pandemic, but I’m a humanities phd student who, now as always, needs a little extra money.

    Any suggestions about how I’d get started in this? Asking here because I don’t actually know of anybody in my department who does this.

    1. Former editor*

      When I was in grad school, I edited journal articles for a company called American Journal Experts. It was ok – if I remember right you can set the number of papers you want to edit in a week, and you can update that at any time. The reason I stopped in the end was that I ended up spending far more time per paper than their estimate, so the hourly rate ended up being terrible. But I might just be abnormally slow. It’s worth a look at their website.

  15. cmcinnyc*

    I’m working on a side project with a lovely person who has poor administrative skills. That’s usually OK–my admin skills are top notch and I handle that area, while she focuses on her area of expertise. But now? Working remotely? She has to do a lot more technical/administrative stuff just to participate and it’s driving me slightly crazy. I’m really trying to stay in the head space that this is stressful and difficult for all of us, and some mistakes and kerfuffle are really not that big a deal. But I’ve been waiting for two hours for an answer to *a really important question that I must know the answer to STAT* and phew… breathing. This is making me think I should be polishing my weaker skills, too.

    1. Sunflower*

      What steps have you taken to get in touch with her? Are your expectations for responses aligned? I’ve noticed people have very different levels of comfort and expectations on response times (biggest example being ASAP is not a clear time table). I work across a lot of different groups- a majority of people I work with are working on ONE project at a given time so while something may be a priority for someone else, that doesn’t mean I can operate in the same way. It might just be a matter of aligning on communications and modes.

      1. A*

        Ya, I think this is really important. I juggle 4-5 projects at once, but have several colleagues that are sole focused on one. I have to continuously remind them that I cannot always make their urgency, my urgency. I will do what is best for the company based on prioritizing on a larger scale, and sorry-not-sorry but your project isn’t always at the top of that list.

        The rule of thumb in my industry is 24 hours for critical time sensitive questions etc. as we need to be sensitive to all time zones etc. And that was in the best of times, right now it’s just understood we are all doing our best and that just needs to be good enough for now (which it is / has been, delays are expected).

        At least in my work environment, expecting a two hour turn around right now would not be considered reasonable unless it was truly make/break it once-in-a-blue-moon kind of exception. But my employer has also made it clear that they do not expect 100% productivity, and it is not reasonable to expect people to be sitting at their computer all day in the midst of a pandemic, regardless of childcare needs or not etc.

        Heck, two hours could just be an extended lunch?

        1. cmcinnyc*

          This was supposed to get done yesterday by 5pm for a Saturday event, so the timing right now is not unreasonable at all. It’s overdue and we’re leaving people hanging who have to schedule for tomorrow. I just got the info half an hour ago and we have smoothed it out! But this is her main project and my side project. It’s really a mismatch in skill sets that doesn’t happen when we can meet in person because all she has to do then is show up and do her thing. But now she has to handle more admin (Zoom, emails, etc.) so she can “show up” virtually and it keeps falling down. Like I said, she’s great–but this new work format is exposing our mismatches in a frustrating way.

          1. A*

            Ah, gotcha – ya that is frustrating. I didn’t see the bit about it being overdue already, that’s obviously not acceptable!

    2. new kid*

      I think everyone understands that “out of office” still has the same implied meaning as it always did, even though most people are not “in office” at all right now. That said, if you want different language, I’ve also seen folks using “offline”, eg. “I am offline today (Friday 5/15) due to illness. Please reach out to Fergus for any urgent requests.” (or whatever is appropriate for your office norms – I added the ‘due to illness’ reasoning because giving at least some sort of vague reason is popular in my office, but may not be necessary in yours for example).

      2. Anon attorney*

        I set my OOO/voicemail to say “I am now away from my desk until x time “.

  16. lbf*

    what are you all putting in your “out of office” responses if you’re taking a personal/mental health day but still have access to your computer/email because you’re at home? am i over thinking this??? i usually say something like “i am out of the office today…” but… i am now at a loss and i feel silly! :P

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I’m “out of the office” at least a half day every week because of a maxed out PTO situation and all my actual spring plans canceled. Some days, I’m at my computer doing personal stuff and I don’t put on a responder. If I get an urgent email, I respond, even though I’m off (I’m salary, so not an issue). Other days, I’ve left to go to the park or grocery shop and I say I am “off work” in my auto response.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      I just used my standard out of office message. It’s familiar, people understand what it means. No one had an issue with it.

    3. Anon Anon*

      You are overthinking. My out of office message is literally, thank you for your email I’m out of the office and I will reply to when I return on “x” date.

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        Yep, this is mine, with an added “if you have an urgent need please contact COWORKER at EMAIL”

    4. Gatomon*

      I usually just tell my boss/team I’ll be around if needed and put up my standard out of office message. If I see something that warrants response, I will, otherwise, it waits. I don’t think you necessarily need to indicate your level of availability unless you’re at a management level.

      I feel mental health days are just as important as physical health days so I don’t like to distinguish between them at work.

    5. Not a Girl Boss*

      I just put “out of office today, for emergencies call my cell”
      People all know what that means.

    6. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      I don’t think you need to worry too much about it- people get that you need time off (hopefully). One of my coworkers said something like “I will be away from my ‘virtual desk’ until X date”.

    8. new kid*

      I think everyone understands that “out of office” still has the same implied meaning as it always did, even though most people are not “in office” at all right now. That said, if you want different language, I’ve also seen folks using “offline”, eg. “I am offline today (Friday 5/15) due to illness. Please reach out to Fergus for any urgent requests.” (or whatever is appropriate for your office norms – I added the ‘due to illness’ reasoning because giving at least some sort of vague reason is popular in my office, but may not be necessary in yours for example).

      1. Bostonian*

        Exactly. Think of it this way: if you have colleagues who work remotely full time, they probably also say “out of office” when they’re not working. People will know what you mean even though it feels weird because it’s not literally correct.

      2. pancakes*

        That’s what I say, “I’ll be offline for a couple hours this afternoon” or whatnot. Sometimes “away from my desk.”

      3. Artemesia*

        The meaning of ‘Madam is not at home’ didn’t mean she was out of the house in the old days — maybe we should adopt that — or just recognize that ‘our of the office’ is today’s equivalent of being ‘not at home — to visitors.’

    9. Tibs*

      I am working from home for now too and still just use something like “I am out of the office until (date). I’ll get back to you as soon as possible upon my return.” I think in this day and age “out of the office” just means not working, not the literal office.

    10. Mr. Cajun2core*

      Yes, you are over thinking it. I would put the exact same thing that you normally do. If you do not feel comfortable saying “I will not have access to email during this time” you can put something like, “I will not be checking emails during this time”. However, I would have no problem saying “I will not have access”. Yes, it is not the exact truth but it is standard. In fact, there is no real need to put either. You can just put something like, “I am not in the office today. I will only be checking email on a limited basis.”

      In summary, I think you can just put what you normally put.

    11. Ama*

      I totally understand that struggle because I like to be very precise with my language as well, but I finally just went with “out of office and not able to respond to email until I return” because that’s something people understand.

      Although since our email system allows us to do internal and external messages in the internal message I will often specify “taking a day off” in the internal one so it is clear it isn’t serious.

    12. Ranon*

      I consider out of the office to be a state of mind as much as a physical location- really what it means is “don’t expect me to answer your email on these dates because I won’t” but “out of office” sounds nicer…

      2. hermit crab*

        I totally agree! I took the day off for my birthday last month and my auto reply said that I was “out of the (virtual) office.”

    13. I'm A Little Teapot*

      “I will be unavailable until x date” or similar. I’m off today, and actually forgot to put an OOO message up. Oh well, it’s just one day.

      And really, this goes for ALL types of electronic communication: just because you get a text, or a phone call, or an email, doesn’t mean you have to respond immediately.

    14. Recalcitrant Potato*

      I used “away from my desk” in the Before Times and it still works beautifully now.

    15. cat socks*

      This is what I put:

      I will be out of the office on Friday May 15th and will be returning on Monday May 18th. For any issues, please contact my manager, Joe Smith.

      1. cat socks*

        And we use Outlook so I may sure to mark my calendar so I show out of office. That shows up as a different color rather than just being booked for a meeting.

    16. Oxford Comma*

      I say that I will be off work on such and such a day and not checking email. I provide an alternate person/dept to contact.

    17. Melody Pond*

      I work from home full time, anyway – and I always say “I am out of the office” on my auto-reply when I’m taking a day off. I think of “out of the office” as just being a polite/formal way of saying I’m not working.

      I would use “offline” (on my IM client status, like Skype for Business) for partial day situations, like if I was going to be away for 2 or 3 hours. For context, I’m exempt.

    18. Anonymous because reasons*

      “I’m out of the office with limited access to emails until (date). If you need an urgent response, please contact (colleague).”

    19. Jemima Bond*

      In normal circs I tend to say I’m out of the office only if that’s true but I am still working – perhaps on a training course or at a different office not logging in to my email much. So “I’m out of the office Wednesday 5th and Tuesday 6th and will only have occasional access to my email, if you have a problem and nobody else can help, please hire the A team*”
      If I’m on annual leave I say that and put when I’ll be back; I’m not expected to log in during that time. (Similarly if I’m ill I’m not expected to log in to set my OOO).
      Could you just put that you are taking PTO, or that you are “off work today”? I mean you might as well be clear about what’s up that you won’t be answering their email until [date].
      *i do not actually say the last bit!

  17. Red Sunglasses*

    For people who aren’t afraid to speak up- how do I get more confident at doing this? Especially when it’s an opposing viewpoint I’m not an expert on.

    I seem to be OK at expressing my thoughts when I’m 100% confident I’m right but if I’m not and it’s not an area I am an expert on, I find it difficult to share my opinion. I notice there are lots of people who don’t struggle with this and I’m wondering what their thought process is. It’s something that is really holding me back and knowing the reasoning and thought process behind people who don’t struggle with this would help

    1. tab*

      I think that having lots of ideas to choose from is good for a team. If I’m not sure it’s a good idea, I start with, “I wonder if we could…” The more experience I got, the more confident I became.

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      You can always qualify what you are saying with something like, “I could be wrong about this but …”

      That let’s people know you are not an expert and I gives you an out if you are wrong.

    3. Ali G*

      When I think I have something to contribute, but I’m not super knowledgeable about the topic, I ask questions. Something like:
      Why when you groom llamas why do you wet them down first? When I used to groom horses we brushed them first, and then wet them down – is that something you’ve tried?

      1. JPVaina*

        I second this. Force yourself to ask 1 question in a meeting. If it’s a meeting where you have documents or anything to review beforehand, come prepared with that question. Ask for clarifications on things. Take notes during meetings of things that you’re thinking, so you have the language in front of you for when you’re ready to speak.

        1. JPVaina*

          Also adding: To build up your confidence, look around at other people’s contributions. Michelle Obama, when asked what it was like to be in rooms with lots of intelligent people, said something along the lines of the people not really being that smart. This is my petty side, but sometimes, I’m like, Well I certainly can’t sound as uninformed as Llama Groomer #2, so I feel more comfortable speaking up.

    4. Gatomon*

      I would love to hear from others on this too. I struggle as well.

      Quarentining with my mom may have helped me find a contributing factor though. Any conversation with my mom where we don’t agree and I’m not recognized as an expert on the topic already just escalates fruitlessly until she’s half screaming at me about her views about the subject. Then I give up because she won’t listen to reason or fact or even discuss it in a calm manner. I realized that I feel the same sense of panic at the end of it that I feel when debating whether to speak up at work.

    5. Alianora*

      I think about what I would want if it was my project or something that tied in closely to my work. I would want to hear what my coworkers have to say. They have a different way of thinking about things than I do, which is incredibly valuable.

      If it’s a topic I’m not so sure about, I’ll wait a minute or so to give my more senior colleagues a chance to speak up, but I will speak up if it seems like someone needs to break the ice. I think that’s an important role someone should play.

      1. allathian*

        This! I can’t stress this enough. When it’s obvious it’s safe to be wrong, the stakes are much lower.

    7. Lora*

      1. Frame it as a question
      2. Be ready with an alternate suggestion or a suggestion of how you would decide or prove whether your idea is better or the other person’s is better

      Nothing is more annoying than someone who questions your proposal / results / whatever but doesn’t have any other ideas how to do the thing either. If possible, there’s also 3. Explain that your suggestion has the benefit of XYZ and was proven to work in (example).

      If it makes you feel any better, it’s actually good to do what you’re doing – err on the side of caution when you’re not the SME. It really drives the SMEs absolutely bananas when someone with 0 experience or education on a subject aspires to have an opinion contrary to the 100 years of experience and decades of education in the room. I don’t mind educating people who genuinely want to learn the intricacies of why don’t we do XYZ, but hot DAMN when they insist we can totally break the laws of physics and violate several federal regulations is it ever annoying.

    8. Amy Sly*

      I’m currently a contract administrator for a mechanical service company. This routinely puts me in the position of trying to draft and administer contracts for things I know practically nothing about. My strategies:

      1) Stay humble. If you don’t understand, just ask, but make sure your tone says “I genuinely want to know,” not “These are irrelevant details” or “I’m too stupid to understand this, so you’re wasting your time.”

      2) At the same time, stay confident in yourself. You’re part of the team because you bring something valuable, and you should be expected to ask questions and note concerns that pertain to your piece of the puzzle.

      3) Accept that sometimes, you’re going to be the rubber duck in rubber duck debugging — that is, the subject matter experts might never have thought about your concern and won’t really know the answer until they try explaining it to you. The dummy who asks the trivial question or makes the trivial comment that allows the genius solve the mystery is a TV trope for a reason; it happens a lot. So speak up, even if you think your question is a bit trivial. You might prompt an epiphany from someone else!

    9. The New Wanderer*

      If I’m not sure whether I agree (or have a gut reaction against something that was said but I can’t explain why), I’ll try to ask a clarifying question rather than speak up to disagree. First, because it gives the opportunity to get more context to the position/opposing viewpoint that I don’t know yet. Second, because as Amy Sly points out, it might reveal that there is a gap in what’s been said and the SMEs might recognize that for what it is because they’re being asked to revisit the reason behind the position.

      I feel more confident if I ask a question than if I try to disagree without anything concrete to support my own position but I also think it’s a better overall approach. I have had meetings with people who are completely comfortable speaking up to disagree and it’s quite frustrating (as others have noted) if someone speaks up but doesn’t have anything to offer other than “I don’t agree with your opinion.” Especially if it’s NOT an opinion, it’s a scientifically backed position. And *especially* if it’s a senior person who then gets deferred to because senior, even if they are not an expert and have no actual basis for their position beyond “I don’t agree.”

    10. Joielle*

      I’ll literally say “I’m not an expert on this, but…” Then if I turn out to be wrong, or my idea won’t work or whatever, I take that info gracefully and thank the person for explaining it. “Ah, I see. That makes perfect sense, thanks.” And if I’m REALLY wrong, or missed something obvious, I say that too! “Oh, I should have realized that, sorry.” Like another commenter mentioned – stay humble.

      It helps me to keep in mind that I’m a generally smart person with good and reasonable ideas, and even if this particular thought isn’t a winner, I want to show that I’m engaged in the discussion and thinking analytically about people’s contributions.

      In my experience, you don’t look bad if you share an opinion that turns out to be wrong. You DO look bad if you share an opinion that turns out to be wrong and then double down on it or otherwise act like a jerk or make it weird for people to contradict you, or offer dozens of opinions per meeting. I don’t think you’re in danger of doing any of that, so opine away!

      1. Joielle*

        Commenting again to add – sometimes during a discussion I’ll have a question and think “this must be a stupid question because it’s so obvious.” But sometimes it really hasn’t been brought up! (It’s like when a bunch of people are standing around outside a door that everyone assumes is locked, but nobody’s actually tried the door.) I feel like it’s best to just own that feeling – “This might be obvious to everyone but me, but just in case…”

    11. TechWorker*

      Honestly the thing that helped me most was having a bit more responsibility & seniority – not that I used to prevaricate loads over stuff but I would worry about whether my suggestions were ‘right’ and look to always check things before sharing them. Then I took over a project, got super busy and just had to make a bunch of decisions and trust my own judgement cos there was no other way to get through… I wouldn’t exactly recommend trial by fire but it also works. So:

      You don’t need to be 100% right, you just need to be right enough (and know when it’s okay to hedge privately, and when you need to say something along with the suggestion like ‘I think x would be a good direction but we’d need more investigation into y to be sure’.

      Also – it’s ok not to know all the answers. It’s better to confidently state the boundaries of your knowledge than sound apologetic for not knowing something when it’s out of your area and totally reasonable not to know about it.

    12. Melody Pond*

      When I’m not confident or super knowledgeable about the topic at hand, I add lots of qualifiers – e.g., “my understanding is”; “I was under the impression that”; “I’m still gaining experience in this area, but my thought was”, etc.

      Or if I know straight-out that my thoughts are conjecture or speculation, I’m not shy about saying so, like, “I would speculate that”; or “this is just conjecture, because I don’t know for sure, but my instinct is”, and so on and so forth.

      I do this regularly when I’m not confident about whatever I’m talking about. Probably more so than an average person would – but I grew up with a step-parent who was (and still is) often in error but never in doubt, and I really, really hate it. Intellectual humility is important to me. On the other hand, though, using these qualifiers to excess could also give a poor impression, so I think it helps to balance this out with clear displays of assured confidence in your knowledge whenever you’re on a topic that you ARE very confident about.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      “I seem to be OK at expressing my thoughts when I’m 100% confident I’m right but if I’m not and it’s not an area I am an expert on, I find it difficult to share my opinion.”
      You may not need to share your opinion. OR
      You can phrase your opinion as a concern that you make into question form. OR
      You could develop ideas about how current issue impact your work/end product.

      “I notice there are lots of people who don’t struggle with this and I’m wondering what their thought process is. ”

      My guess is that at least 75% of people struggle with this stuff. Their struggling can manifest differently then the way you struggle. Perhaps they talk but they stutter, or they lose their train of thought, or maybe they have a buddy who signals when to stop talking. We can get so lost in our own struggles that we fail to notice when others are struggling.

      “It’s something that is really holding me back and knowing the reasoning and thought process behind people who don’t struggle with this would help”

      Most people struggle- it’s an illusion that they are not struggling.
      Decide to speak up when you are 80% confident. This isn’t an all or nothing thing. Right now you are using a system of 100% confidence or nothing. So wade in here, start by going down to 80% confident.
      Notice that not everything that is said is an opinion. Sometimes it’s a question or a statement of concern/worry. Other times someone can just plain really like another person’s idea and express that.
      In a given group decide who you admire/respect the most and just watch that person. When do they speak? What are they saying? Here instead of watching everyone, which gets to be more like watching a ping-pong game, pick one person and watch that one person. See what you can learn from them. The next time the group meets pick the person #2 and repeat the process. If you find a specific thing said and you admire the way they said it, make mental note of that.

    14. Jemima Bond*

      This is very much a cliché of advice for people in new jobs, new to the working world, or doing any kind of training; but it’s a cliché because it’s often true:

      The only stupid question is the one you don’t ask.

      It may help to keep that in mind?

    15. Sam I Am*

      I’m looking specifically at your language of “opposing viewpoint,” where just asking technical questions (“I’m unfamiliar with <> being used to describe this group, does that include everyone making tea or only our clients working with loose leaf?”) may not apply.

      If you have an opposing viewpoint at work, a genuine statement of where you’re coming from and asking them to explain their thinking is pretty good… “Oh, I thought we weren’t doing X because of Y. Can you explain to me why we’re doing X?” Tone is important, speaking with a collaborative and not a combative tone is a skill you can work on. I like direct language and less “softening” language. I do this in person, in writing I definitely use softening language because tone is so difficult to write.

      1. tetris replay*

        I like the (in-person) approach of using direct language but in a collaborative way. Softening language can be so imprecise.

    16. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      I compartmentalize my insecurities. I’m confident about my professional knowledge and have no trouble sharing opinions, asking questions and respectfully disagree. I’m a lot less comfortable about nearly every part of my life, though, and tend to ask questions, be a good listener and really only disagree if something key is at stake. I think I became more confident at work because of praise and promotions…you don’t get that kind of regular feedback in non-professional life.

  18. What to do*

    I recently worked at a small family business. A woman applied for an open position. I do not know this woman, but she had done work for a friend and she was obviously very skilled.

    I recommended her for the position. That part was strange, because my boss arranged and conducted all the interviews, but told me to talk to the owner. The owner and his wife told me separately that they would not hire a woman, because she would have had to work with men in a non-customer facing position. They were afraid that the current male employees would say something inappropriate in front of her, which would in turn cause her to sue the company.

    This seemed illegal, but I had no say in the hiring process and they ended up hiring a man who was skilled and more experienced (he had not yet applied at the time this woman applied, and quit after a couple months). I no longer work at the company, but I am wondering whether it is my place to reach out to this woman and tell her why she wasn’t considered.

    1. Potatoes gonna potate*

      If I had a grudge against the company and wanted them to get sued or something….I probably would mention it. Doesnt’ seem like there would be enough proof to prove it.

      Good for you for getting away, that’s such yucky thinking.

      1. pancakes*

        Why would that require a grudge? Gender discrimination in hiring is illegal in the US, and the woman this happened to would be well within her rights to file a complaint with the EEOC regardless of how you or the OP personally feel about the matter. Do you think they should only investigate claims against employers you personally have something against? I can understand being reluctant to bring this to light for other reasons, but lack of a grudge against the employer seems like a bad one. Likewise a potential lack of evidence — why not let the EEOC decide that? If there isn’t enough to go forward with, they won’t go forward with it. If other people have made similar complaints about the same employer that would likely be very interesting to them, but you wouldn’t necessarily know about that.

    2. Fikly*

      It’s totally illegal.

      Also, super gross to penalize the woman because they’re afraid the men can’t control their behavior. Fire all the men and hire a team entirely made up of women, I say.

      I’d tell her if it was safe for me, but if there is a lawsuit, you’d probably have to testify.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      So if the employee is male they cannot sue if other males are saying gross things?????

      NO. I would not reach out to that woman. I’d just know my time with the company was on a short rope.

      They need to learn how to manage.

  19. Anonymous Writer*

    Suggestions for how to break into freelance writing / editing?

    I know, I know, terrible timing! But I’m a humanities phd student who needs, now as always, a little extra income. I envision providing editing services for science or business grads, some business writing, etc. I don’t know anybody in my department who does this, so I’m asking here?

    1. dragocucina*

      You may contact the Independent Book Publishers Association. First they are a nice group. Second, they work with hundreds of authors who need this type of assistance. They might also be able to connect you with small presses that want to provide names to their authors.

    2. Annie Nymous*

      You could ask the person who asked the same question two minutes before (and about five comments above) you.

      1. Ramona Q*

        The person who asked an identical question with identical wording is presumably the same person maybe not realizing their comment would post twice, Annie.

        1. Anonymous Writer*

          Yeaaahh, sorry. It’s me both times. I thought the question got eaten and I guess not. :P

    3. Laure001*

      I’m a writer and there are a ton of Facebook writers group (romance, Sci-fi, etc…) who are always desperately looking for editors.

    4. Sciencer*

      I used to do contract English-language editing for scientific papers. I specifically worked with American Journal Experts but there are quite a few companies who do the same thing. I don’t know if a similar service exists targeted toward humanities fields, but if you’re comfortable with scientific jargon it could be worth looking into. Fair warning that it is NOT interesting work – it’s entirely focused on correcting technical errors on the sentence/word level, and to maintain brand integrity you have to use stock phrases and such in your comments. For me it was a fine stop-gap to get a little extra cash while I was adjuncting. One of my friends made it work well enough to be her sole income for almost a year.

      Are you a fast typist? I did freelance transcription work in college and it paid really well, and was more interesting (depending on what I was transcribing, usually interviews – court cases were mind numbing). I did that entirely through word of mouth connections but it was pretty fun for a side gig.

  20. Recruiters and the Unemployed*

    Final post for today I think lol

    So I’ve been on LI a lot since losing my job, updating my profile, connecting with recruiters etc. I came across a post a while back that said something to the effect of “If you’re unemployed in these times, don’t go through a recruiter!” It was actually posted by a recruiter themselves so I thought that was interesting. Has anyone come across this line of thinking? If so what are your thoughts? 

    1. Jen Mahrtini*

      A lot of companies are trying to avoid recruiter fees right now. Once a recruiter submits your resume, they’re generally owed a fee if the company hires you within a year.

    2. irene adler*

      Even if you are with a recruiter, continue to job search on your own.
      Don’t think the recruiter is going to put themselves out to find a job for you. It’s when they see you as a fit for the position they are trying to fill, that they will work to get you that job.

      And good point Jen Mahrtini re: paying recruiter fees

      And do not waste time with any recruiter who does not have a specific position to fill. Some like to talk with you to get more names to talk to (like your references) so they have a larger pool of contacts for future positions. They make it sound like they have lots of positions available. Unless they can give you the particulars about a specific job, then they are just wasting your time.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I personally can’t stand recruiters. Never had good experiences with them.
      But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t if they have a good job match for you and/or your industry relies more on recruiters because jobs in that industry aren’t posted the normal way.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      As someone who does recruiting, the recruiter that posted that message is stuck in the dark ages. There are loads of reasons for quality candidates to be unemployed and it’s the recruiter’s job to figure out why the candidate is unemployed and if they’d be a good potential match for their opening.

  21. Not a Girl Boss*

    I’m really struggling with my shift from individual contributor to specific-project-manager to general project manager. Its hard for me to no longer “own” anything or make “real” contributions. And since I manage projects for huge cross functional teams, its not like I can take pride in developing a team’s strength – I just manage several projects at a time with wildly different participants every time.

    I am also really really struggling because I currently DO have an individual-contribution task, but I can’t for the life of me get it done, because I have meetings for 6-8 hours a week. A half hour break between meetings is not enough time to dive into a complex detail oriented task.
    I talked to my boss about it and he suggested I try blocking my calendar with 2 hour slots well in advance… but that just led to people, even my boss(!), telling me I really really need to let them book up that blocked up time, or worse, scheduling meetings during lunch or at crazy hours like 7am and 6pm (which I also blocked off).

    The sheer number of meetings required to get these projects moving in the right direction is utterly baffling to me. And yet, every time I try to back off on them, or replace a meeting with an email, someone gets left out of the loop or no one makes progress in the week off or some other disaster ensues.

      1. TechWorker*

        Hahaha I was a bit confused by that! I manage a small team and have meetings probs ~3hrs/day on average and even then struggle to get large amounts of focussed time to do individual contributor work so I definitely sympathise :(

    2. Ranon*

      I do my detail oriented task stuff first thing in the morning, before even opening email. Trying to do it after (or worse, in between) cat herding is a recipe for your brain trickling out of your ears.

      And yes, it is astounding how hard it is to keep wildly different groups of cats headed in something like one direction!

    3. Raea*

      Just popping in to say that as a function lead on projects, thank you for all that you do as PM!! Keeping things moving, and connecting the dots between all the functions and deliverables is invaluable, and IS a direct contribution! We’d be lost without you folks : )

      In re: to meetings, oh I feel your pain. Similar to the other comment, I tend to tackle my own task oriented functions first thing in AM before diving into my emails. Otherwise I’m stuck multitasking during meetings, which is doable and sometimes necessary, but not ideal.

      1. Not a Girl Boss*

        Thank you :) It might just be my imposter syndrome coming out to play, but I always feel like “I THINK I helped everyone out with my skills, but for all I know they’d have been much better off with a different PM, or even just left to their own devices.” Its just a much harder contribution to measure and improve on than when I was a regular engineer and my designs either worked, or, didn’t.

        I’ve always been an early bird and start work at 7. But then people on various teams figured out that I was up that early, and started scheduling early morning meetings. I just feel so out of control of my own schedule. Its not like the ‘secretary / treasurer’ can skip meetings about decisions/money. But also, will it really kill them to wait ONE extra day for a decision at our regularly scheduled status meeting?

        1. Ranon*

          Can you phrase declining meetings as protecting their schedules? Like “I know you all need non meeting time to get your work done, so let’s address (thing they “need” 2pm meeting for) at tomorrow’s 10am meeting. So and so, please keep working on (things not impacted by meeting thing) until then.

            1. Raea*

              Yes, I recommend this approach! I have some PM’s that desperately want the play-by-play throughout the week, and others who really only need the main highlights/changes – if any – through the week the rest during the weekly project updates. I STRONGLY prefer the latter, but still have to play to the former.

              Every meeting cancellation / request rejection I receive is a blessing : )

        2. Mockingjay*

          You are allowed – encouraged – to say “No” or “Not right now.” As the General Project Manager, you
          decide what meetings you want to go to.

          I hold a dual role – project coordinator and tech writer – and while I definitely don’t hold the rank that my program manager does, we are encouraged to set boundaries regardless of our level on the org chart. Just yesterday I sent an email to a team lead telling him, “hey, unless there’s a specific question about a deliverable, I’m skipping today’s meeting. I have something else to focus on.” He’s like, no problem, and I put the headphones on and knocked out an overdue report.

          Also, you and your teams should evaluate the number of meetings and “required” attendance. On a team level, you probably need only participate occasionally. Feel free to bow out; have the team lead email you with highlights if needed. Block out time on your schedule that is yours and only yours at least once a week.

          1. Not a Girl Boss*

            Thanks. Maybe I’m a control freak, but I always have FOMO with these meetings. Since I’m not anyone’s “Boss” technically they don’t *need* my permission to do things, and often it won’t occur to them to ask my opinion unless I’m there. So if I don’t show up to a meetings, its not like they can’t move forward – they often do, in the wrong direction. Which isn’t to say they aren’t fantastically technically competent, they are, its just that my sole job is to bridge all the silos, and if I’m not there they never think about the impact their decision has on the other teams.

            Of course, then there’s purely technical meetings that I definitely don’t need to be at. Its also occurring to me that the reason this got so much worse after we went to WFH is because many of the members of the team seem to have great anxiety over using WebEx. A lot of the time, I think they just want me there so they don’t have to figure that part out. Which also makes it impossible to multitask during those meetings, because it ends up being my call-in and my shared screen. So maybe I need to help them become more comfortable with WebEx. Getting “secretary of technical meetings” off my plate would free up a good chunk of time.

            1. NotAPirate*

              To be a good employee and someday advance their own careers they need to be able to recognize other projects and other employee impacts. Which in this case maybe means keeping a log of meeting topics and emailing it over post meeting to you to confirm new plan isn’t going to step onto another projects paths.

              Also the webex thing is ridiculous. They are skilled people in your words, therefore they are capable of hosting it. There’s so much additional how to and tutorials right now.

    4. Fikly*

      Do you want to be a manager?

      I mean this seriously – it’s perfectly valid and ambitious or whatever to be an extremely good individual contributer. Not everyone enjoys being a manager. If you don’t enjoy it, and you do enjoy being an individual contributor, I would look closely at whether there is a good reason to be a manager.

      1. Not a Girl Boss*

        I always THOUGHT I wanted to be a manager. But perhaps I do not. While technical problems (even disastrous ones) bring me great joy, and I can accidentally work a 15 hour day without blinking… people problems are agony for me. I’m a very empathetic person, which I thought would make me a good boss – and maybe it does. But it means I find people problems so stressful, and a day of difficult conversations leaves me feeling wrung out and anxious.

        1. Fikly*

          It’s super hard to know if you’ll enjoy something before you try it! There’s no shame in taking some time to evaluate it.

          And just because you are good at something doesn’t mean it’s good for you.

          1. Not a Girl Boss*

            Thanks. Yes, its so interesting that the things that bring you joy aren’t always the things you’re good at. I guess I’m just now figuring that out. In school I always loved the subjects I was good at :) in life, not so much.

            1. Fikly*

              My dad tells a story about how back in high school, he took chemistry for the first time. Turns out he had a natural talent for it, but he found it incredibly boring, and had no interest in pursuing it further. He had a classmate who loved chemistry, but struggled to do well in the class. His classmate was horrified and offended that my dad didn’t want to do chemistry after school.

              I strongly suspect the classmate was angry because my dad was so talented at something he struggled at but desperately wanted to do, and seeing my dad able to do it easily but not want to do it was putting salt on the wound, so to speak. But as a teen, my dad didn’t understand that was what was going on.

              I’m not sure that you’re not good at being an individual contributor – I’m guessing if you got promoted into this position, they must have been happy with how you were doing before, at least!

              1. allathian*

                Chemistry was the only STEM subject I was really good at in HS. I could have been pretty good at math, but I was much more interested in languages and just didn’t want to make the effort. Because I wasn’t taking advanced math or physics, I opted out of taking advanced chemistry despite getting straight As in every compulsory module I took.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      Gosh…I absolutely feel you on this. Transitioning from an individual contributor role to a manager role while still keeping my individual contributor tasks was absolutely brutal for me and I only lasted about 2 years in the role before I needed to pull back. I echo what Fikly said about wondering if management is truly for you. I completely understand why you wanted to make the leap, as it’s extremely natural to take the next step to management if you’re a successful individual contributor because logically, it makes sense! The first thing I’d do is start to ruthlessly guard my time for your individual tasks. You mentioned that you’re an early riser so I’d block that time off and push back on your team members that are scheduling early meetings. You don’t have to specifically mention why, it can be something breezy like, “Going forward I won’t be able to accept any meetings after 9am.” Don’t forget, you’re the boss here!

  22. Jennifer*

    My unemployment finally came through! I’m in GA and it took seven weeks. If I wasn’t married and my husband wasn’t still employed I would likely be nearly homeless by now and definitely relying on food banks to eat. I worry about how other people are getting through this.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      That’s great news and I’m sure a big relief. Out of curiosity, and if you don’t mind my asking, do you get paid retroactively to when you were laid off, or does it start from when you were approved?

      1. Jennifer*

        Thank you! I got paid retroactively to when I applied. So I can put a little away in case I haven’t found a job by the time the extra federal pay ends.

        1. Damn it, Hardison!*

          Oh, that’s great! I assumed that was how it works, but I didn’t know for sure. Thank you for confirming.

    2. Grateful*

      Same! In New Hampshire and it took 7 weeks for my husband’s unemployment to come through. We feel so lucky we weren’t desperate for it. How are people living paycheck to paycheck getting by?

      1. Sam I Am*

        They’re not.

        The lucky thing people in NH have going right now is that it seems to have stopped snowing so even though their propane is locked out for non payment they aren’t freezing, just taking freezing cold showers.

        Important to know that the NH foodbank system is run by …. Catholic Charities. I fear that those with issues with the church simply go without, because they would rather starve than approach the church for anything. Or they think they aren’t eligible because they aren’t Catholic. Catholic Charities does a lot of publicity to let people know everyone is welcome… but how much of your budget for the foodbank do you want going to marketing?

        I don’t mean to be flip, I’m just answering your question about the folks I know. They’re running out of food, and even if utilities aren’t shutting of the phone right now, the bills are piling up. NH economy runs heavily on tourism, ski season was cut short and summer will start late, so it’s going to be tough.

  24. Middle Manager*

    Caveat: my office is entirely swamped by COVID19 response and so I’m trying to give wide latitude for less than ideal management right now.

    That said- this is becoming a trend that I really dislike. Our director will send out an email with 2-4 staff on it and sometimes with 2-4 staff cc:ed saying basically: X assignment needs done by Y date/time. It’s addressed generically and almost never specifies who should do it. On occasionan it’s “Sally and Sammy please get this done”, but it is very clearly a one person task, so it’s still unclear who should work on it. If there was a question asking for a volunteer it might more sense, but as is, it just leaves everyone super unclear on who should be working on what request, remote from each other, without a great system in place for group chats to hash it out. Occasionally the task doesn’t get done at all, more often two or more people start working on it and duplicate effort.

    Again, my director is swamped, but this seems like a super unhelpful way to assign work. I don’t know exactly how busy other people on the call are to compare to me, so it’s really hard to gauge how often I should be leaning toward volunteering myself (which is my tendency) or letting other people take on the request.

    Is this normal in some context and I should just try to get used to it? Or is it problematic? Since at least for now I have to just get used to it, any tips?

    1. Ali G*

      Do you have any insight to the workload of other people? You could step up and take the lead at “assigning” these tasks. So if you get one of these emails, reply-all (maybe remove your boss at first) and say, hey Sammy I know you are working on X and this is related, do you have bandwidth to take this on? Or, hey Sally, I know this is typically in your realm, but I have time today to do this if you don’t…
      Basically you get a chance to showcase leadership and make sure these things don’t get forgotten.

    2. RemoteHealthWorker*

      Your manager is signalling he wants the team to work this out together. If you have a lead, they should be doing the delegating. If there is not a lead then talk to your team about how they want to delegate. If they get squirmy and say ohhhh i am soooo busy then publicly volunteer to own some pieces and do not respond to the others. Its not your job to track these and if you try to delegate them it will bite you.

    3. Gatomon*

      I hate this! But it happens a lot here too. It’s expected we’ll sort it out amongst ourselves instead of waiting for a specific delegation. Usually whoever’s taking it on will send an “I’ve got this” message so everyone knows its being handled and by whom. It’s not odd to have multiple people taking a look before an ownership message goes out, but sometimes that’s necessary for us to see if we have the time/skill to complete the task by the deadline.

      If the email has grown stale, usually a “if no one has grabbed this, I will” email comes out. It would be odd for anyone on my team to delegate to anyone else on a regular basis. If only two people are singled out, we’ll hash it out privately via IM. Management usually follows up if they don’t see the email, but our tasks are usually deliverable to other teams or customers, so they don’t necessarily know it’s done without that bit of overhead.

      It seems to work okay for us, but we function pretty well as a team. I’ve been on dysfunctional teams where it turned into a nightmare – escalating emails from management demanding someone take ownership until finally someone is chosen, and that person is usually the busiest one because they are also the most dependable and the slackers are never called out.

    4. need a new screen name and have no imagination*

      I get these from time to time from my boss. Their wording is generally, “we should do X” and my response is to reply all saying, basically, “did you have a specific person in mind for this task?” but since my boss is fairly casual my wording is usually something like “who is ‘we’?”

    5. LGC*

      Like, I think you guys are taking your director too much at face value, from what it sounds like? I think your director is expecting you guys to manage your workload as a team, first and foremost. And it sounds like…people are waiting for someone in the team to take the lead in the right direction.

      In that case, it’s probably worth clarifying, and – like – your boss is likely going to tell you that you’re professionals and you should sort it out. In that case, you might want to work out an assignment system for your team – which is really something your boss should be taking the lead on (shall I say, they’re not doing much directing right now). Perhaps, someone could…maybe not be a director, but maybe be an informal (and hopefully formal soon) leader for your team.

      (And yes, I am suggesting y’all need a team lead.)

      In light of that, I’d suggest…taking what you’re able. Like, grabbing tasks if you’re free. Don’t grab all of them, but start with some of the ones you’re named on. (So, like, if the email has your email in the To line or you’re named in the email, that’s a good candidate to jump on.) Hopefully, people will step up.

  25. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How long did it take you to stop struggling at work? It’s been nearly a year and I can barely do the basics of my job…

    1. CheeryO*

      I think it just depends; some jobs do have long learning curves. My supervisor has been up-front with new hires that it can take five years to feel like you’re fully up-to-speed with things. That totally track with my experience – I spent a couple years feeling clueless, another couple feeling semi-confident, and then things finally clicked for me. Can you ask for feedback to see if you’re where you should be?

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      Unless there are extenuating circumstances, it should not take you a year to learn the basics of a job. If you feel comfortable you can maybe talk to your boss about your concerns and maybe get more training. If you don’t think that would go well, I would start looking for another job.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      It depends on the job. I’ve had jobs where it is understood it takes two years to feel like you know what you’re doing. Other jobs the expectation is that by a week or two in you should be able to do it fine.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I am struggling more now that I am all remote and the strategies I had for getting through work no longer work.

      2. tangerineRose*

        I agree with LadyByTheLake. It depends on the complexity of the job and the documentation, etc.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      It depends on what you mean by basics.
      Because with a lot of jobs, you’re expected to know the “basics” within a few months, while the unique particulars of the job may have a very long learning curve of 1-2 years even longer.

    5. Annie Moose*

      I work in software development and am part of a team that maintains/creates enhancements for a large, complex suite of software. It took me over two years before I started to feel that I had a good grasp on everything! So there are definitely jobs where it can take more than a year.

      Have you gotten feedback from your manager about this or is it just your gut feeling? You could try talking to a coworker about it as well–they might be able to give you an idea of where you are without having to (gulp!) talk to your manager about it.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        No, I haven’t gotten any feedback from my manager but I feel that my job has been overall subpar.. I’m doing a social work job so basics are like arranging visits, arranging respite, etc. If there are two parties or more I struggle getting them to communicate together

        1. Atalanta0jess*

          Have you had a chance to talk with coworkers about some of the stumbling blocks you’re hitting, and how they are able to do these things? I think a year is longer than average to be struggling with this stuff. At the same time, some of it just isn’t easy. It might be helpful if you can find someone trust worthy to talk about whether it’s YOU struggling or just that the thing is always hard; and what strategies might help.

    6. Not a Girl Boss*

      I have a very technical job (mechanical engineer) and have jumped industries 4 times. For me, the job always feels the most horrible and unconquerable at 6 months and I hit an all time low in self confidence. By 9 months, it turns around and I feel like I can breathe again, and by 1-2 years (depending on the number of new ‘things’ to experience and solve for in the given job) I feel bored. So, in retrospect, I spend the majority of my life feeling bad at jobs.

      It can be so hard in the moment to determine whether you’re struggling because your skill set doesn’t align with the job, or because you just haven’t experienced enough of the ‘things’ to know how to handle them all yet. But at a year in, I’d start to take it as a warning sign.
      Maybe the training is inadequate and you’ve been forced to make things up as you go along – always a recipe for disaster. Maybe your boss has been ramping you up so slowly that you’re stuck in a never-ending learning curve. Maybe you got a job that was a bit above your experience level so you’re having to learn more than the usual person. Or… maybe your natural talents aren’t a good fit for the role.

      I have figured out the hard way that its not doing anyone any favors to hang out in a role that is poorly suited for your natural talents. Its torture for you, and even if you work *really really* hard, you’ll likely never be excellent at the job. I met my best friend at work, and she is a brilliant person, but she was horrible at her job. She was ultimately fired. She got a job that was a better fit for her, and in the last 3 years has been promoted 5 times.

      You said before you had coping strategies to get through the day – that makes me sad. Are you struggling to get through the day because you hate your job, or because you’re really overwhelmed? You can likely fix being overwhelmed by being open with your boss and making a strategy to learn what you need to… but no strategy for not hating your job lasts for long.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I had a strategy for getting the paperwork together but its 4:10 on the 15th and barely anyone has returned my call about the surveys I have to do with them over the phone, I was late for a meeting because I forgot about it ( it was in my phone!), I have a girl who is 1st grade reading level I have to get to do her high school classes, and I have trainings and meetings and I’m just overwhelmed. I don’t even have to go anyplace any more!

        1. Not A Girl Boss*

          I mean to me all this sounds like normal hectic current world situation making life miserable stuff! I wouldn’t read too much into any of it. Everyones too stressed to get the work they owe you done, and you’ve got extra stress. Just because you’re saving on commute doesn’t mean you’re not more than making up for it in stress. Be kind to yourself and reassess after this is over.

    7. RagingADHD*

      It usually takes me about 3 months to feel like I’ve got a basic handle on things, somewhere around 6 months to feel pretty well settled in, and by a year I usually feel like I could help newer people with routine stuff.

      If there are job duties or special situations that are very complicated or come up infrequently, of course those take longer.

  26. dragocucina*

    There was a discussion a couple of weeks ago (maybe not, my sense of time is shot) about the end of open offices.

    Yesterday at an online meeting with a Grand Boss a lot of people were asking about hoteling. There is going to be a big evaluation of how much people can and want to continue teleworking. The Grand Boss is for it. But, on the other hand that would bring the need for hoteling.

    It wouldn’t effect me so much as I have to have a dedicated space for my materials. But, I’m curious on others thoughts.

      1. Mill Miker*

        It’s another word for hot-desking. You don’t have an assigned seat, and instead find one when you start your shift.

        It makes sense when there’s more staff than desk space, and not everyone is in the office all the time, but really sucks for anyone who is in every day and has to keep moving for no real reason.

        1. Anon Anon*

          Ahhh…I had not heard that term before. Hot-desking I’ve heard about, but I’ve learned something new.

        2. A Simple Narwhal*

          I’ve always hated the idea of hot-desking and thought it would add a level of stress to my day that I didn’t need, but I’m wondering how I would feel if I only had to do it once or twice a week. Is there a threshold for when it becomes annoying/doesn’t feel cumbersome?

        3. Lyudie*

          My company is moving to doing this in some teams, we can reserve the desk online beforehand though…I am not sure how far in advance you can do that so possibly you can reserve the same cube for a week or two at a time. No one likes the idea though, at least no one I’ve talked to. You can’t keep anything in or on your desk, it has to be taken home or stored somewhere.

        4. Genuine Topograph*

          It’s not really the same thing, though, because hoteling usually involves “reservations” and hot-desking is more of a free-for-all. So instead of choosing an open seat when you come in to the office, you reserve a workspace for however long, depending on your needs and the parameters your org has set up. So if you’re in for half a day, once a month, you make a half-day reservation, but if you’re in all the time you can reserve for longer (usually a week, sometimes a month). Like a hotel, hence the name!

          If we’re looking at staggering the workforce going forward, which we may well be, hoteling makes a lot of sense, because e.g. Red Group reserves their workspaces for their four days on, and when they go do their ten days off, Blue Group reserves their workspaces. You need less space, fewer workstations, etc, and also you know, for contact tracing purposes, who was where when (with the obvious risks and benefits that go with that).

          1. DragoCucina*

            That makes a lot of sense. There are teams working on projects. Knowing that when they come together the week of February 30th they will have the same space would make things easier.

          2. Not a Girl Boss*

            I like the idea of a set week in the office at a time for groups. I adore teleworking, but its true that my team occasionally has collaboration needs better met in person. But we could totally save them up for a week a month.

        5. The New Wanderer*

          Our company uses “hoteling” to mean the open desks that are available if you happen to be working in that office for the day (or some part of the day), and they usually have signs to that effect. The majority of desks are assigned to individuals and have nameplates. No reservations needed in our setup, you just go with whatever desk is marked “hotel,” but I can see how that makes sense for other places. Hot-desking to me means that few or no desks are designated for specific individuals and all of them are first-come, first-serve.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      We have the same convo going on. They’re talking about only using half of the open office cubes and having people rotate weeks in the office and hoteling (not having their own dedicated cube). I’m in an office, so I’m not sure what impact there would be for me.

      For my whole career, we’ve all had to pack all our crap up every project and co-locate, so it’s mildly annoying that NOW we’ve decided we can all work effectively remotely when 12 months ago we couldn’t be sitting on neighboring floors of our office building. A couple years when we moved to new office locations, I ended up moving 8 times. Sometimes, just a row or desk away, but still.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’m also curious about this as well. My company has always been very anti-WFH, only lifting restrictions very slightly in the last few years (you can WFH once a week, but not on Mondays or Fridays) when they saw they were losing a lot of people to competitors who did offer flexibility on remote work. Now that we’ve been 100% remote for a couple months and we haven’t lost any revenue or productivity, the higher ups are finally starting to see remote work as a viable business option, to the point that one of them mused the other day about how much money could be saved if we didn’t need our giant office to have everyone in all the time.

      I’ve been loving working from home so I would love if they offered more flexibility in this area (especially since I might be moving to an area with a less great commute than I have now), but I wonder what it would mean if we moved to a smaller office space. Would we hot desk? Share a desk with a coworker but trade off on who is in when? I don’t love the idea of not having a dedicated work space, but usually when I think about my dislike of hot-desking it’s that I wouldn’t want to do it full time – I suppose it would be different if I was working remotely 3-4 days a week and only having to hunt for space once or twice a week.

    4. hermit crab*

      We already had a modified hoteling arrangement because a lot of our staff (normally) travel a lot or work remotely part of the time. Staff who typically work from the office get an assigned desk; other staff don’t; there are a bunch of unassigned desks; everyone is supposed to reserve/check into a desk daily so visitors or folks without permanent desks can find a place to sit. If you don’t have an assigned desk you can get a locker or an extra little wheeled file cabinet.

      It works ok, I guess. The real challenge is getting everyone to reserve and check into their desks. We get a lot of accidental double bookings when assigned-desk-staff get complacent and let their reservations expire, and then non-assigned-desk staff (rightfully) think they are out of the office and reserve that desk for themselves.

    5. Not a Girl Boss*

      I had to hot-desk for 2 years and I HATED it. Its an ergo nightmare. It sucks not to have anywhere to leave snacks or papers or a spare fleece in case the AC was too cold. I spent the first 15 minutes trying to get the stupid chair adjusted and clean the cheetos dust off the mouse and find a working pen. It was objectively the worst. But, I’m also sorta OCD.

      One thing that did make it bearable was that a year in, they gave us all lockers. At least that allowed me a spot to store stuff I needed on a regular basis and lock pens away from thieves.

    6. Windchime*

      Our workplace is going from a pretty downtown building with lots of windows and spacious cubes with lots of storage to hotelling space. But we are also going almost fully remote (teams will probably come to the office one day every other week or so). When they first said we would be doing hotelling, I was upset but now that we are almost fully remote, I think I can handle it. There is going to be some kind of a reservation system so that our manager can block a section of spaces for the team; otherwise, it would make no sense for us to all come to the office only to be scattered around on different floors.

      Having our office come to the realization that remote work *does* work (and will save us millions of dollars) is one of the few positive things to come out of this whole COVID mess.

    7. New Senior Manager*

      Sounds like a germy nightmare. Make sure to include your own cleaning supplies when going into the office.

  27. AdAgencyChick*

    Would love to hear from other managers on how you’re thinking about PTO, and encouraging your employees not to hoard theirs for the second half of the year.

    Upper management has asked us to nudge people harder to take days during the pandemic, or at least to plan out what days they’re going to take for the second half of the year. It’s a tough sell — why not save the days for a real vacation later in the year, and what if you pick a week and it’s still not possible to travel by then? That being said, the second half of the year will be an all-hands-on-deck period for my team, and even if it weren’t, there would still be enough work needing to get done that we can’t have half or more of employees out at a time.

    I have been taking random days off myself to set an example. My team has been hanging on to their days, though. Beyond reminding them that I won’t approve overlapping vacation requests in the second half of the year and that the company isn’t going to allow a large amount of rollover (we’re not in a state that requires rollover or payout), is there anything else I can do?

    1. Not a Girl Boss*

      Can you try making PTO in the first half of the year “worth more” – maybe by giving an extra day PTO for every 4 days taken in the first half (so they can get a weeks vacation for the price of 4 days)?
      Ultimately, its not your employee’s job to make the company’s life easier, they have to do with their benefits what makes the most sense for them. So unless you make it make sense for them, or outright mandate that they use half their vacation in the first half of the year, nothing is going to work.
      The only other thing I can see working is to point out that its physically impossible for everyone to get their vacations in if people don’t start taking them by X. But still, why would they be the one to sacrifice vacation so everyone else can have the ‘good weeks’?
      Or perhaps you could require to put in vacation requests for September-December now, so that people who lose out on the lottery know far enough in advance to make staycation plans.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Where I work people start asking off for Thanksgiving and Christmas in July to make sure they get it. You might want to start with that. Tell your employees that anyone who wants to be out over the holidays has to request it by date x so you can plan. And note that only y number of people can be off at a given time so not all requests will be approved. That will probably help sort the most difficult time periods, and get your team thinking about it. Ditto ask for PTO requests for family weddings or reunions that seem to have a date certain – people should ask for it now to ensure that it will be approved.

    3. BadWolf*

      Some of my coworkers are really stuck on vacation=leaving home. So taking vacation and being home seems to be a non-starter with them. I’m a little unsure how you nudge them.

      For me…I’m all about a staycation. I only haven’t taken more time (I’ve done a couple single days) because I’m running a project with a deadline and I don’t want to take a week when I’m clearly don’t “need” to. Do your employees have deadlines that they’d feel like they could relax at home knowing they were “doing nothing” when there’s something really important to do?

      1. Not a Girl Boss*

        Yes, I’m genuinely perplexed by the resistance to staycations. I’m burning through a dangerous quantity of my PTO right now because I just find that WFH and the current stress has me requiring more random days off. I just sit in my backyard feeling supremely overjoyed at my lack of work related stress for the day.

        But I do agree people were more weirded out than usual at my vacation time, and I had to pointedly decline calls from people to keep them from bugging me, when normally vacation is well respected.

        But, we do take one travel vacation a year, because sometimes it CAN be really hard to relax when you’ve got your Honey Do list piled up around you in the house. I always take a Friday off to clean and do chores, and a Monday off for the actual relaxation part.

        1. Koala dreams*

          Me too. Staycations are not less real than travel vacations. I’m planning a staycation this summer. A long weekend sounds very short, but I know US vacations are usually short. I would rather take the whole week, preferably so that I had the weekend in the middle and work two short weeks before and after.

          I don’t know if you can pressure people who don’t like staycations. For places that are open and can’t work from home (restaurants, stores), it’s possible to close the place, and I know a few places that did their vacations that way before. Now when many people work from home, and businesses that do stay open face a lot of uncertainty, that’s not possible or practical.

          If you do have a use it or lose it policy, it might be time to remind people about it. You can also remind people of the health benefits of taking days off, for example by sharing how you feel better after your own vacation. Just don’t expect too much results.

        2. AcademiaNut*

          I think it depends a lot on what a staycation means for your situation.

          A staycation in a nice home with a backyard to hang out in, and space to work on projects is very different from a staycation in a one room apartment. If you add in not having the option to go out – no parks, museums, coffee shops, bookstores, restaurants, pools, gyms, all the things that would normally be fun to do with a week of spare time – and no opportunities to visit with other people, I can see why people would want to save vacation for a more enjoyable experience.

    4. Ali G*

      Definitely take time off yourself to model behavior. Also be crystal clear about the policy. I’s write up an email that lays it all out, what you expect from your team, and the consequences of hoarding days (not getting approved/losing vacation). After that it’s up to them to plan accordingly and you to stand firm when everyone wants to take time off between Thanksgiving and NY and some people won’t be able to and will lose days.
      Also, this is not your job, but people need to wake up and realize that the second half of 2020 isn’t going to be rainbows and unicorns and travel/planning to travel is still going to be risky. It sucks, for sure.

    5. A*

      We are making a (presumably) one-year exception to the ‘use it, or lose it’ policy so they can roll it into next year. We all felt strongly that it was either that, or accept that we will have staffing issues for the second half of the year as it wouldn’t be reasonable to place the burden of staggering vacation onto the employees given the circumstances. They earned that PTO and it’s our responsibility at and above the management level to ensure they are able to utilize this in a beneficial manner as intended, rather than by force – now, or forced limitations due to overlapping later in the year.

      Granted, this was a hill I was willing to die on. So I expect the conversation would have gone differently if I had been prioritizing my own job security above my teams. Luckily for my team, I would never want to stay on if my employer hadn’t supported this anyways : )

    6. Mediamaven*

      Last year we started giving the holiday week off but this year I’m going to require people to use their PTO for it. We give a ton of PTO so I don’t think anyone will have TOO much of an issue. I also already told people that I wouldn’t be approving a surge of vacations when restrictions are lifted. Just set expectations early.

    7. Holey Moley*

      My guess is some are saving PTO in case they do get sick with covid. My company doesn’t offered paid leave while in quarantine if I get exposed so Im planning ahead.

    8. Half-Caf Latte*

      Is this PTO all in one, or is there a separate sick/loa bank?

      I’ve been super reluctant to take any time off, because if I need to quarantine, or stay home because of childcare issues, I’ll be required to use my time for that. They’re “allowing” a negative balance of 120 hours, but then it would just be months of no potential time off until I got back to zero, which feels like a recipe for burnout.

      If there are mothers who have recently had maternity leave from your org, I’d look to them and their patterns of time usage prior to their leave as an indication. All of my friends basically had to hoard time for their mat leaves, and then were required to burn the whole bank, so came back to work with no safety net.

      1. Mockingjay*

        We also have one PTO bucket, so I reserve part of the year’s accrual for illness. “Hey, I can take a week off…unless I catch a cold. Hmm. Better accrue a couple more days before scheduling vacay.” Our PTO is average for our industry, not bad but not great either. (The rest of the company benefits are solid and salaries above average, so PTO is not a dealbreaker.)

    9. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Could you ask people to take their leave in year-quarters or -halves? That is, if you have 12 days a year, you need to have used 6 by July 1st.

      Is it easy for people to use part-days? You might be able to approve more overlapping requests if they aren’t full days, e.g. Fergus is off all day, and Celeste requests half a day, yeah fine.

      (Frankly I’m not one to talk, though. My leave year runs Jan-Dec and because I’m in the UK I get six and a half weeks including public holidays. I have so far used … two hours.)

      1. Ina Lummick*

        It’s similar for me I’ve used around 2 days before C19 started affecting us here (and I’ve made sure to book between Xmas and NY as we aren’t shutting down in those days. But also my workload doesn’t allow for holiday currently, and until recently I was the only member of my team who was not furloughed so I couldn’t take time off anyway…

    10. Diluted Tortoiseshell*

      The best way to encourage staff to use PTO is to insure that your PTO system and polices are set up to give employees security to feel safe during this uncertain time. It’s not to pressure staff to use up a limited resource that they may need to exhaust in a likely to occur emergency.

      Is “vacation” separate from “sick” leave? If not break them out.

      Are staff going to be safe if they take a week vacation now and then have to turn around and take 14+ days to care for themselves and loved one who is sick? If yes lay out how it is for them. If not make it so.

      Is your company being transparent about furloughs, lay offs, and financial performance? Do you and your team know more or less where you fall on the “indispensable” scale? If not then of course people are holding on to their time; lack of security = hoarding mentality.

      Make it safe for your staff and they will take time off.

      1. TechWorker*

        Honestly I just don’t think this is true – we have separate PTO to sick leave, generous sick leave, no particular risk of furlough or lay-off (our industry is still going full tilt and our division is in a strong position). But I’m still wondering about the same questions on this thread. I know plenty of folks who’s companies are enforcing ‘half your leave by end of August’ or whatever but mine has made no central statement yet.

      2. allathian*

        I feel really privileged in that we have separate sick leave (basically unlimited, although 30 days at full pay) and vacation days, and if we get sick just before a scheduled vacation, we’re allowed to postpone the vacation. The idea is that we’re sick on company time, not our own. But this obviously requires a doctor’s note, and if we get sick in the middle of our vacation, then we lose those days.

    11. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s so hard. I have at least one friend who’s mad because her company is making her take PTO and she wants to save it for travel, but… she lives in NYC and I seriously doubt she will be traveling any time soon. We’re all reminding her that she’s in a use-it-or-lose-it situation, and also that she’s had some family stuff that requires that she step away from her work, but she can’t seem to connect that “time off” and “vacation” are not equal.

      I think upper management needs to provide clear guidelines rather than just asking you to nudge. Do you have official blackout periods? Is there a deadline they want to set? My friend’s company gave everyone a directive that they have to take one week of PTO by June 30th. My company has been approaching people separately and asking them to take the time off (these are people with tons of PTO, a different situation that yours, probably).

    12. Meg*

      I think companies need to consider allowing people to roll over more days than they normally would. My company is allowing us an extra week to be rolled over, which is really nice. I am still trying to take days off, but I’m not taking a full week off when I can’t go anywhere. I live in an apartment, so there’s limited space and things to do–it’s not like I can take a week to work on a home improvement project or sit in my (non-existent) yard.

      I think you need to be very blunt about coverage needs in the second half of the year, so that people understand that, and they have to understand that. But also realize that someone who lives alone in an apartment may not want a week or 2 weeks off when they can’t go anywhere (probably other people too, that’s just my specific perspective).

  28. Lamb Chop*

    In a few weeks, I’m starting a new job in an area I’m really excited about (yay!) I’m especially excited because my current workplace is not ideal… think all the classic toxic/dysfunction that people write in about. However, my current job is also my first job out of school, and I’m worried about bringing some weird work norms I may have picked up with me, without realizing it. It especially doesn’t help since I’ll be learning the new job remotely, so I’ll miss out on observing the norms in my new workplace. Any advice on how to make sure I don’t become “that co-worker” and leave all the dysfunction behind? Is my awareness of the dysfunction enough to shield me from bringing in odd workplace behaviours?

    1. juliebulie*

      Sometimes when working in a non-dysfunctional environment, you don’t have all the little cues that trigger the bad habits you developed at your last job.

      No promises, but that’s how it worked for me.

      Only other advice I can give is to keep your eyes open and observe (in a non-creepy, non-spying way) what others do and don’t do in this new workplace.

      1. Lamb Chop*

        I’ll be starting the job remotely, so that might be tough! But I’ll definitely keep that in mind when we’re back in the office :) Thanks!

        1. juliebulie*

          It can also be things like email and Zoom etiquette. Not necessarily stuff like clipping toenails at one’s desk. :-)

  29. Roza*

    Just want to vent a second about being in tech and the general lack of respect for “non-technical” (or even “technical” but not software engineer) staff. While there are a couple of engineers at my company who are wonderful co-workers, the majority of the engineers are incredibly arrogant and condescending. They ignore input from people actually familiar with the data or customers (obviously it is not THAT complicated, we’re just too stupid to see that it’s simple like they do), then when this leads to a solution that doesn’t work and tons of last-minute scrambling is needed, the problem was “unforseeable”, even when there are plenty of meeting notes documenting otherwise. They get treated like the only people who matter at the company, held to lower standards (one engineer at the same level as me does not have to document his code, ever, because he “doesn’t like it”. I don’t like creating documentation either, but I would never dream of refusing to do it bc as a senior technical staff member, part of my job is ensuring the larger team can easily use our tools..) even though the others working with existing clients, making sales, making the office function, doing analytics, etc, are all equally necessary to the company. Just wondering if my company is exceptionally poor in this regard, or if mediocre engineers acting like entitled jerks and being openly treated as more valuable than everyone else is endemic to tech. I’m at the point where I feel like I’m developing a bias against anyone with a SWE title…

    1. A*

      “the majority of the engineers are incredibly arrogant and condescending.”

      I say this not to be snarky, but just as a genuine observation. Honestly, your comment read to me as also being somewhat arrogant and condescending. Maybe everyone should just cut each other some slack?

      1. Roza*

        I get that, but I should clarify that I’m not making a blanket assertion. I don’t want to get too specific with examples for fear of outing myself, but I came to that opinion after multiple encounters with most of the engineers in which they were openly rude and demeaning (think calling me stupid for asking how their undocumented code worked) or insisted on doubling down on incorrect assumptions (think insisting that all client data we receive will be clean and neat despite massive evidence to the contrary) or being condescending (think informing me that llamas have four feet as though this is a grand discovery even though I have a PhD in llama biology and also told them this multiple times). I should just cut my coworkers slack about borderline – abusive behavior that interferes with getting my job done?

        1. emmelemm*

          Any software engineer who thinks data will be even remotely clean has a screw loose and shouldn’t be listened to.

      2. Alice*

        Roza’s comment sounds frustrated, not arrogant and condescending, IMO.
        To be honest, an organization where a senior technical staff member just doesn’t comment his code because he doesn’t like doing it doesn’t sound very functional to me. I can easily see how the engineers with soft skills would over time be poached away, leaving Roza’s org with a higher-than-normal proportion of jerks.
        Maybe the couple of great coworker engineers you mentioned at the beginning of the post can give you some insight into how to communicate effectively with the rest of the engineers?

        1. Amy Sly*

          I know a few “if code was hard to write, it should be hard to read” types.

          My response has always been “Comment your damn code. The poor schmuck who has to figure it out in six months might be you!”

          1. KoiFeeder*

            I’ll post a link to the source after this, but my favorite piece of coding advice is “When you write code, pretend that the person who will have to maintain it after you’re gone is a homicidal maniac who knows where you live.”

          3. Annie Moose*

            It’s always me, and I always curse my earlier self for not writing more comments.

          4. TiffIf*

            Lol one of the devs I work with is coding a new feature right now, but I had put in a comment a related thing that the same dev had done about a year ago that would need to be rechecked and integrated with this new piece–on a call the dev was mentioning the related thing, and I said “oh, you did that already last year, we just need to make sure it still works right when you’re done” and he was like “I did what?”

          5. TechWorker*

            If your design is correct your code ideally shouldn’t be that hard to write OR read. These folks are unreasonable and certainly not representative of s/w engineers in my office.

            It *is* true – like anything – that corners sometimes get cut when deadlines are tight, but then we go back and document after the fact.

            I hope I’m not a dick to non-software engineers… but there is also a challenge sometimes in explaining to non-technical people (or slightly technical people) why what they’re asking for isn’t simple. Very little is impossible – but there’s definitely things that I can tell almost instantly wont be worth the ROI and I have to stop myself jumping to that conclusion and actually explain it/make the ROI decision along with someone who knows where the money is coming from and whether anyone will pay for it. I would never tell anyone they were stupid, but I also interact with such a huge range of people (and the scope of what we do as a company is so huge) that I probably could end up sometimes explaining something in an email person x already knew, because it’s not that easy to know or keep track of how experienced person x is.

            (And then I’ve been in meetings where someone senior has asked for something that literally was impossible – and when this was pointed out he was like ‘not my problem’. So I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences with s/w engineers… but there’s problems on all sides :p).

      3. epi*

        Nothing in the comment was condescending, just frustrated. If you didn’t like the opinions expressed that doesn’t necessarily mean they were expressed in a rude or inappropriate way. People are allowed to vent about their jobs, they don’t know you and aren’t talking about you, so it seems like you need to manage your own emotional reactions to things that dont involve you.

        My partner works in tech and, yes, he is affected by this exact dynamic at times. It actually messes up both of our lives because he has pager duty and a lot of the issues paging him are caused by people on other teams not doing their jobs correctly. If you look at the Glassdoor reviews for many tech companies, you will see pretty quickly that this is a common complaint among non-engineers throughout the industry. Some manage it better than others, but it’s a very real phenomenon regardless of your feelings about it. I have witnessed the same dynamic in other workplaces where one particular team is viewed as more essential than others, even if it isn’t true.

        1. LOL*

          “so it seems like you need to manage your own emotional reactions to things that dont involve you.”

          Well… that DEFINITELY is condescending. Yeesh. I hope your day gets better.

        2. BobbleBoy*

          I honestly had the same interpretation, and I’d like to think my opinion as valid as the next. Understood that you interpreted it as just frustrated, but clearly some read it a different way? It doesn’t necessarily mean we need to check our emotions, or whatever. At least two of us read it that way, so your reaction seems extreme.

        3. Jigglypuffy*

          FWIW I also thought it was. I assume based on the other comments its in part because I’m not in this line of work. But I don’t think the comment read as black/white as you think it did.

    2. juliebulie*

      It sounds like your company is exceptionally poor in this regard. Most engineers aren’t especially more or less arrogant than anyone else. But I can see how it would be possible to get a cluster.

      We did have a few people like what you described, but they were all purged in a big layoff a few years ago because they were so difficult to work with.

      1. Roza*

        That’s encouraging to hear! Before the whole covid thing started I was reluctant to job hunt since it seemed like it might just be a tech sector problem, but hopefully I can find somewhere better. Unfortunately all the worst offenders at my company are best buddies with someone in the C-suite, and are rapidly driving off all of the good engineers and bringing in more buddies from a former employer, so the problem is getting worse…

        1. juliebulie*

          Ah, so it’s become a vortex. Bad news for you now, but maybe the vortex will suck them all in so that you won’t encounter as many people like this when you move on.

          1. tangerineRose*

            Can you find out where the good engineers went and find out if they like it there and if there are job openings?

            As a tech person myself, it depends on the company and the people. A good company won’t put up with too much of this nonsense from anyone – tech has to pay attention to the people who are going to use the software, and they have to doc the code.

      2. cat socks*

        I agree that it seems to be a company specific issue. I work in software development as a system/business analyst so I spend a lot of time taking input from the end users and translating them into requirements for the developers to work from. In my company, the developers rely heavily on these requirements to start their coding. They will make technical decisions about the best implementation in the software, but they do take into consideration the actual needs of the end user.

    3. Brownie*

      I’m struggling with this and have always struggled because I straddle the line, skill-wise, between technical and non-technical in IT. One thing I’m finding is that a lot of the folks I’ve encountered who look down on non-techs are either hardcore into the whole old-fashioned idea that being technical is like a fantasy land where they are the chosen ones and everyone else are expendables/don’t matter, or else they are folks who have never failed before and therefore have this idea that they’re not reliant on anyone else and even if they were could do everyone else’s jobs just fine thank you very much now shoo, go away. I’ve also seen folks who matched the above change dramatically and become downright thankful regarding non-techs and support staff. What made them change? Good management.

      Take a look at the management of the folks you’re working with and see if management is conflict-avoidant (“I’ll let Fergus not do documentation because I don’t want to argue with him”) or otherwise adverse to managing these difficult personalities. The best manager I’ve ever had was a technical person who would not take that kind of BS from their team and for the time they were here we actually had a team instead of individuals forced to interact with each other. It was glorious. Now I’m in a situation where the manager is a combination of dictator and conflict avoidant (yup, this is exactly as bad as it sounds) with a side helping of technical=The Only Thing That Matters and will be switching teams to a new manager within the next few months to a better team where non-techs are valued. There are places out there that are much better than where you’re at, it’s not the whole tech field, and over the years it has been getting oh, so much better, and will continue to be so don’t lose hope.

    4. Nesprin*

      This is a case of mediocre engineers acting like entitled jerks.

      signed,
      an engineer who thinks writing documentation is more important than writing code.

      1. tangerineRose*

        The thing some people don’t understand is that part of the documentation is about WHY something is being done. You can’t always get that from the code, even when it’s clear what is being done.

        1. Darren*

          That is pretty much what all of my comments are to explain why we are doing something that’s not obvious. So a function that squares a number doesn’t need a comment, what it’s doing and why are obvious (it was told to square a number and that is what it did) but depending on why the other bit of code is squaring the number it may require a comment (if it’s calculating the area of a circle it won’t as that’s a common formula the and function name would explain that quite obviously).

          Now obviously I try to structure code as much as possible to remove the need for comments (naming of functions and variables can make the what and why clear in 90+% of cases) it’s just for the cases where it doesn’t matter how you adjust those names it’s not going to be clear why you are running the same function twice with two different variables that have the same value in all the example everyone can easily think of. That corner case where they differ being impossible for anyone not deeply familiar with the business problem to see.

    5. NW Mossy*

      In my experience, these clusters of “brilliant jerks” develop when the culture privileges technical skills ahead of relationship skills.

      It’s hard to know where exactly that begins, but it seems to happen when the founding myth of the team/org centers around someone who was/is a gifted technician but not a particularly strong manager of others. If that person doesn’t correct for the natural human bias to pick people like themselves to work with, they will start to establish a culture where technical skill gives people greater status and power than being easy to work with. Over time, that can really distort how people behave. Basically, it’s not the role – it’s the incentives for the people who occupy the role.

      Unfortunately, this is a problem that’s really hard to solve without a clear and conscious intention from leadership to change it. If managers aren’t hiring for collaborative skills, pushing their staff to excel in that area, and ultimately parting ways with those that can’t/won’t improve, it’s unlikely that you’ll see much movement.

    6. No Tribble At All*

      As an engineer, I’ll say: I know that feel, dude. There’s a non-trivial cadre of engineers who like to think they can be jerks because they’re Just SO Brilliant, along with the general low-level “STEM is better than non-STEM”. It does sound like your company is extra bad about that, and new people are learning they can get away with not documenting because they’re on the software team. That’s a culture, and it sucks. If literally every user is getting errors, maybe it’s not user error, it’s a system design problem?? HmMM??? Nah, I’m sure it’s that we’re not smart enough to use it /s.

      I agree with other commenters that your company sounds exceptional(ly bad). Most of my encounters with software engineers being unhelpful were they just answered exactly the question that was asked without any additional context. I was trying to get X to do Y, and they told me how to implement it, but it turns out X can only do Y in very specific circumstainces and it’s better to do Z overall… which I only found out after emailing them a bajillion more times about X not doing Y. If they’d mentiond that from the beginning, it would have saved me a lot of time. Maybe they assumed I knew it? But I’m not a software engineer! I just occasionally write code. Gah. They answered like a piece of sofware responding to keywords, lol.

      Also, any engineer that assumes that data will be clean and perfect is a FOOL.

      1. Darren*

        Yeah sounds like you’ve also been working with software engineers with terrible business domain knowledge, and a lack of ability to improve it. When you’ve got a user asking you for something you don’t just answer the question you drill into why do they want it, what is the actual problem they are trying to solve. Once you get to that you can propose a solution that solves the entire problem not just whatever symptom they are complaining about today.

    7. NACSACJACK*

      “Oh god, was I ever that naive?” I remember when it sank in for me was when the non-technical staff started getting technical titles such as Business Systems Analyst or QA Engineer, about the same time I got to see what they worked with, when we switched from Excel spreadsheets to QA script software and they picked it up and I didnt. It also helped working with them on a one-on-one basis. Why do people like your software engineers get to keep their jobs when others who want to work together get pushed to the side and never promoted.

      1. Darren*

        Really there are three things that are valuable in technical staff. Technical abilities, ability to work well with others, and business domain knowledge. You really need all three to be really successful in a long term career, but I’ve definitely known some technical managers who assume if someone is smart enough to have solid technical abilities they have to be easily able to pick up the business domain knowledge and that they can work around any issues with them being able to work with others.

        I’ve had to reject candidates for all three reasons although it tends to be more the ability to demonstrate they can understand the business domain knowledge that most of them get rejected for. Usually the people who aren’t good to work with are going to be terrible at having business knowledge anyway because they aren’t listening to their users, aren’t understanding the scope of the problem they are trying to solve and instead just solve what they think the problem should be which isn’t useful to anyone.

        Frankly I’m shocked that these people keep getting hired but I guess some companies are hard up for options when it comes to attracting technical staff and have to make do with what they can get.

  30. oh dear*

    For resumes/cover letters/interviews, how do you talk about accomplishments that were essentially built on other people’s failures without badmouthing your company? For example, what passes for HR/operations at my small startup is deeply incompetent, so I’ve been taking on some of the most critical issues (like our total lack of a coherent onboarding system, people not getting contracts/paid on time, etc…).

    I’m proud of the work I’m doing there, and it will likely be relevant to future jobs, but I don’t want to be like “well X and Y are terrible at their jobs so I saw a need and filled it.”

    1. irene adler*

      Don’t explain why you undertook these things. No reason to air the “dirty laundry”. Just say that you took on a task and how you improved it.

      “I saw the need for an improved payment system for our contracts, so I initiated the [program] and successfully implemented a 99% on-time payment system for our contracts. ” Then briefly detail how this program works.

      “I revamped the onboarding program and turned it into one of the more successful aspects of our employee support program. New hires consistently rated it as the biggest reason they have achieved success at Company. ” Then briefly detail the program components.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        These are great examples. You can also go with the old standby of “outdated and needed a fresh eye to assist in the revamp” or “until my position was added, no one had the bandwidth to tackle these” or even “as I had worked in X at a previous employer I knew the system would work for the new company and my familiarity with the program and experiences with implementations in the past made for a very smooth and successful program update”.
        You could even formulate it as part of the reason you were hired. “I was brought in to revamp X, update procedure Y, and implement Z and all were completed on time and have been used successfully ever since.” Make it sound like the company identified the need and you were the best person to fill that role.

        1. Annie Moose*

          Only say that last bit if it’s actually true! If you spin it as you having been brought in to deal with X problem and you weren’t, then the truth will very likely come out during a reference call.

  31. TV Researcher*

    Is anyone else just tired? I know I’m extraordinarily lucky. I’m able to work from home and for the short term, it doesn’t look like there will be layoffs in my department (though, I may be wrong – lots of reorg going on). My company pays lots of lip service to making sure our emotional well-being is taken care of, in addition to us physically – and I do believe they mean it. I don’t have kids (so I don’t have to worry about home schooling them) or pets.

    And yet, I’m so tired.

    I know that part of my fatigue is my cancer treatment (immunotherapy – as my doctor says, every three weeks I’m getting a ton of drugs shot into my body). But, the fatigue on this medicine has never been this bad before. I did bring it up with my doctor and she says it’s normal, due to the treatment plus all of the other covid-19 mishegas.

    So, this turned into more of a vent than a question. I’m just so tired and want to check to see I’m not alone in this.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You’ve had to shift your entire mindset, way of life, and general outlook in an instant. That’s exhausting! I’m not surprised anyone is tired. No, you’re absolutely not alone.

      Can you take a day off? Or a couple of hours in the afternoon for a nap?

    2. oh dear*

      I know what you mean. I also have a chronic illness (narcolepsy, among other things), so I’m used to being tired… but the past couple of weeks, I’ve been really, REALLY tired.

      I’m not even new to working from home — my job has been remote from the get-go, so I don’t feel like I have any particular excuse. :/

    4. NeonDreams*

      I hear you! I feel the same way. I think it’s emotional exhaustion. Most everyone is stressed out to some extent and it’s hard not to internalize that.

    5. seahorsesarecute*

      Oh yes. Nothing much has changed for us, both my spouse and I are going in to work like usual. We never did much outside the house anyway, so shelter at home didn’t change much for us either.
      But the mental energy I’m spending knowing I’m following the rules to not spread or catch a disease like this is wearing me down. I avoid the news and it’s still just so exhausting. I think it’s normal, I know it won’t last forever – it just currently feels like it will.
      You are not the only one.

    6. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’m always tired at the moment. I suspect it’s largely depression for me but also just the feeling that the whole world is collapsing. But I’ve been so tired that I’ve had to take a nap several afternoons this week.

      I’m not even employed at the moment — I got laid off not long before the virus hit, and although some places are starting to hire in my field again I’m not sure that I actually want to be on site. Construction sites often have inadequate facilities for washing hands etc. even in normal times and I’d have to take crowded public transportation to work. I’m fortunate that my husband is able to continue working from home no problem and makes enough money to support us both for a while, but I am quite overwhelmed with the feeling that my career is completely over and I will be nothing more than a glorified housewife for the rest of my life.

      I’m going to try some supplements and maybe see about online therapy. I was thinking about it anyway before all this, but I’m tired of always feeling awful.

      1. Amy Sly*

        My depression advice from last week may be helpful:

        In additional to getting therapy as quickly as possible — easier said than done, I know — I have over-the-counter tips for anyone struggling with depression learned from a lifetime struggle with the black dog:

        1) Make sure you get the sleep you need. Block out the needed time consistently, and if you need benedryl or another sleep aid to manage it, do it. Alcohol is *not* a good sleep aid though.

        2) Make sure you get the nutrition you need. Water, protein, and vitamins tend both to be neglected while depressed but also help you generally feel stronger and healthier. If that means adding Ensure shakes to the shopping list, so be it.

        3) Make sure you get the exercise you need. It increases your metabolism, helps you burn off any co-existing anxiety, increases your appetite for real food, and helps you sleep better. Even if it’s just a walk around the block a few times, try to do something that causes you to sweat at least a couple times a week.

        4) To the extent you can safely do so, get sunshine on your skin. Interesting fact: the severity of Covid symptoms appears to be inversely correlated to the amount of vitamin D you get. Even without Covid concerns, vitamin D deficiency is extremely common and linked to all kinds of health problems.

        5) Make sure you keep up with your personal grooming. When I’m at my worst, dragging myself into the shower seems nearly impossible, but once I manage it, I feel so much more myself.

        6) Try to do at least one thing every day that lets you feel in control of your environment. Maybe that’s just making your bed at first. Studies have shown that living in a messy environment increasing cortisol levels (a physical indicator of stress) in women. Frame it to the partner and kids that keeping the house clean isn’t about some arbitrary standard but about keeping you healthy and sane.

        7) Try to achieve at least one thing every day that you can point to and say “I accomplished this.” Maybe it’s that you did one of the prior six things, or something from work, or something with the kids. Maybe it’s something that you didn’t do, like not yelling at the kids. It doesn’t have to be much: just something concrete enough to be a line item on a to-do list that you checked off. Ideally, keep a list of these achievements. Being able to see your successes as well as just the defeats that depression is bringing to your mind will help you balance.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          Just reading this list makes me tired, LOL! I’m at the point where the Black Dog wants to go for a walk, and I’m like “Dude I am too tired even to be depressed. Go get someone else to feed you.” And then the Black Dog shoves his nose underneath the covers and I’m all “I will only scritch you if you don’t make me get up” and then the Black Dog asks for belly rubs and I’m all “I am sleeping here man!” And then I lose the metaphor and just really want a Newfie to snuggle.

          Seriously though, at this point I can’t tell depression from being over 50. Everything hurts and I’m tired all the time, and it’s an uphill struggle to keep each at bay.

    7. Animal worker*

      You are so not alone. I was just emailing with peers at other zoos this week about this. I see so many stories about all the things people are doing during the lockdown – cook a masterpiece meal, clean the whole house, learn a language, etc. I’m essential, split between WFH and work at the zoo; and between the workload, the stress of trying to support my team and the animals in our care I’m working harder and more stressed out than ever. On my days off I have no energy, I just want to lay on the couch and try to relax without work thoughts running through my head. I’m happy if I keep my pets alive and my house at a minimum of (kind of) cleanliness.

      We are all having our own unique experiences here, and each persons’ situation and stressors are unique to them, but you are absolutely not alone. I wish you the best in your treatment and in dealing with this very stressful time.

    8. Joielle*

      I’m tired all the time too, and no kids, elderly relatives, illness, or anything like that to deal with. My spouse and I are both working from home but it hasn’t been too hard of a transition. But I feel like I spend a lot of mental energy suppressing a simmering rage/sadness about everything, plus every trip outside the house just takes more planning and risk/benefit calculation than it did before. Things that used to be fun aren’t anymore, and we just straight up can’t do a lot of fun things at all.

      Overall, I’m really really lucky and have things very easy compared to a lot of people, but yeah, I am still tired all. the. time.

    11. The Transient Hamster*

      This post and all of the responses make me feel less alone. I am exhausted. Part of my job involves HR, which has blown up since Covid began. Just tracking and following up on everyone requesting and going out on leave is a full-time job. Answering the non-stop questions, dealing with the policies that need changing every week (and the questions that follow), and being on call to open workers’ comp claims all weekend long when an employee tests positive for Covid is taking a toll. Payroll is a nightmare that requires a 14-hour day to process what with the temp employees, Covid bonuses, and special rates being offered. The worst part is that our corporate office seems to have zero understanding of the increased workload and expects us to continue to do our regular jobs plus all of this extra work. And we’ve had a PTO blackout so taking a day off to decompress and breathe isn’t an option. Not that I could take a day off because the work would just continue to pile up and be even more unmanageable. I feel like a shark who just has to keep swimming in perpetuity.

      Logically I know this will end some day and I know there are so many people dealing with much worse, especially our nursing staff and those poor employees battling Covid, but I am physically and emotionally drained and don’t know how much more of this I can handle. I’m just fortunate to have great co-workers and an understanding boss all struggling by my side.

      So yeah, I’m more than a little jealous of everyone talking about being bored working from home and all of the amazing crafting/cooking/learning experiences they’re all having thanks to this newfound free time.

    12. allathian*

      I’m tired. I seem to get enough sleep now and I’ve finally learned to drink enough water during the day so that I don’t drink pints of it before bed, so I get to sleep through the night instead of getting up twice or three times to pee.
      My son went back to school on Thursday so I can focus on work in the morning. In general I’m a morning person, so I want to work on tasks that require more focus in the morning and routine stuff in the afternoon, if at all possible. But with homeschooling, my routines were messed up, because my son would interrupt me at least occasionally. Things did improve a bit as time went on because he got used to remote learning, but still…
      I hate being out in the rain, but weather permitting, I take at least a 20-minute walk every day. It gets my endorphins up and I get at least some exercise. I know I should do more, but it’s better than nothing.
      I still enjoy some things like watching my favorite TV shows or rereading favorite books, but I’m just doing what I more or less have to do, I don’t have any energy for any extras. Thank goodness I have a houseproud husband who does most of the cleaning and cooking at our house. He has tons of energy and has a lot of projects going on, but I just vegetate on the couch when I’m not working.
      But I don’t have cancer… I would be surprised if a cancer patient who’s getting immunotherapy wasn’t tired.

  32. Oh No She Di'int*

    Hi all! I’m hoping someone out there has a recommendation for some kind of very small, lightweight software or app or service to allow members of a remote team to mark themselves as “available” or “unavailable”, etc. Everything I’ve found so far seems to be more of a full service time tracking or time card type application. That’s not what we need, however. We just need a way to signal to each other that we’re at the desk or not at the desk.

    We do use Slack, which has some of those features built in. But for a variety of reasons it’s not ideal. My preference would be for something freestanding and very small and inconspicuous. Any ideas?

    2. new kid*

      Can you explain a little bit more about why Slack isn’t meeting your needs here? I think anything I would recommend does essentially what you already have, so I just want to make sure I understand the ask.

      2. Oh No She Di'int*

        Sure. I am aware that Slack does automate some of this–specifically, if it does not detect any system activity for 30 minutes, it will show the user as inactive. However, I just looked and I see that “Dave” is showing as inactive. But I have no idea if that’s because he has stepped away or if it’s just that he printed off a research report and has been reading it for the last half hour.

        Also, with a half-hour window, someone could, say, take their dog for a walk and be back before the status changes. That’s not a problem from a work management standpoint, but if I know that someone will be away for half an hour I won’t spin my wheels asking them a question that I need an answer to right away.

        Finally, I want a way for people to be able to be at their desks, using what is often their own computers and not have that imply that they are are necessarily “at work”. Even if they are using a company computer, someone might be taking lunch and watching YouTube videos, and they’d have every right not to be disturbed during that time.

        I know that there is a way to set a status intentionally in Slack, but it feels a bit limited.

        1. Grapey*

          Sounds like a Dave problem, not a software problem.

          Adding another “lightweight app” that depends on a user manually setting themselves as away is going to be two modes of communication Dave will ignore and will be 2x as much work for you to check.

          If Dave doesn’t want to be disturbed during his youtube lunch, he’ll learn to set Slack statuses. (Kudos for actually respecting them.)

        2. new kid*

          I don’t know that another tool is the answer in that case, as it sounds like more of a process issue. If I’m understanding correctly, in the scenarios described you really just want your team to consistently & accurately indicate whether they’re available or not, right? Could you all just agree on a status that means unavailable (DND maybe?) and coach people to use it consistently when they forget (eg. someone is showing available but doesn’t respond for 30 min because they actually got up from their computer and the ‘away’ hasn’t triggered yet – when they get back you say something like “Slack was still showing you as available, remember to set to DND when you’re away from your desk.”)

          Otherwise, I’m not sure how another tool would solve for this, as they’d still have to manually change their status (unless you’re just wanting one with a shorter ‘away’ timer than 30 min?)

        3. LQ*

          I get it, but honestly you are going to be so much more likely to get people to buy into doing something that has some built in capability. I know it’s not perfect, but it’s the humans, not Slack that’s the thing here. You can also set out of work hours on Slack which can help too. Adding another tool just adds another layer of Stuff You Have To Deal With. It rarely makes someone who doesn’t want to do this kind of reporting start doing it. To get that you have to either manage that person, or automate it. Most tools obviously build in automation.

        4. BB*

          Ah, ok. Ya I think this is a larger issue. I hate this aspect of Teams – no override option, auto sets to inactive/away after FIVE MINUTES.

          It is by far the feature I miss the most from SkypeFB. R.I.P default away status after never minutes.

          I’m not aware of a program that offers what you are describing, and I’m not sure how it would be able to know if you are ‘away’ versus ‘working but not at your computer’ unless it was manually activated – which Slack and Teams does allow.

      1. cat socks*

        We use Teams and I just checked – I can right click and set my status to Available, Busy, Do Not Disturb, Be Right Back, Appear Away.

        If there is a meeting scheduled on my calendar it automatically changes to “In a meeting”.

      2. A*

        It has the statuses and can be manually set, but Teams has an auto default to away/inactive after five minutes. Unlike SkypeFB, it cannot be overrode or changed to a more extended time window. Sounds like commenter is looking for one that will still show active/available even if the employee is not working on their computer in the moment.

    4. Mockingjay*

      Try Pidgin. It’s a free universal chat program which lets you log into accounts on multiple chat networks simultaneously. Basically, it pulls in all kinds of chat programs (plugins) into one app that you log into. Its plugins include Slack.

      Pidgin is very easy to install and use, and lets you set availability messages. It has standard ones, but you can also customize your status. “Busy – In the NeverEnding Meeting.”

    5. International Klein Blue*

      A short cautionary tale: I once worked at a place that had a home-grown chat system that also served as a presence indicator. With a glance you could easily see who was logged in, who was busy, “dentist appt – back at 3pm”. It was nice.

      Then various groups decided to bring in Slack, which has its own version of presence indicator. But it did not integrate with our other system.

      As a result, it became confusing to figure out if someone was around.

      1. Windchime*

        We just use Skype for this. I think we are eventually switching to Teams, but for now it’s Skype and we just are expected to manually set our status if we are going to be away from our keyboards for something other than a beverage refill or a trip to the restroom.

  33. not_kate_winslet*

    I wrote in last week about having issues with an probationary employee, and concerns about letting him go during a pandemic, etc. I received a lot of very thoughtful feedback and advice, and I truly appreciate all of it.

    Update: I let him go yesterday. There were several other strange incidents over the last week and it finally got to the point where it couldn’t be explained away any more. I worked with my manager and HR and completed the process yesterday. It is the hardest work-related thing I have ever had to do. When I talked to him on the phone to deliver the news, I had in mind the question/comment/update from earlier this week about addressing situations with compassion. I started off by asking him if he was ok. As it turns out, after that conversation, I suspect there are some underlying issues that he never disclosed or asked for accommodations for. That made following through with the rest of the conversation even more difficult (for me). If he had requested accommodations or volunteered any information along these lines, this may have turned out differently. Maybe just a cautionary tale for those of us on either side of the situation.

    Anyway, thanks again for the feedback.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Ugh! I’m sorry that was so difficult. But the onus was also on him to bring issues to his manager if there was a need for accommodation, instead of letting the situation snowball to a level of unacceptable work.

  34. City Planner*

    Ideas for a remote/WFH retirement party? I have a long-term employee on my small team whose last day is June 1. Pre-coronavirus, we would have had a pretty typical cake-and-punch open house in the largest conference room and most of our larger organization would have dropped by. Now, we are all working from home and won’t be back in one place for a while. I haven’t even seen this employee since March, because she’s been calling into our Zoom staff meetings. I’d welcome any creative ideas for a retirement celebration — I’d like her to at least feel like she’s gotten a proper send-off from our team, even if we can’t involve the larger organization.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Send her a cake! Or cupcakes. If you know she drinks alcohol, send her a bottle of champagne or something else she might like.

      There’s a website called Kudoboard that will allow you to create a group card. I haven’t used it yet but was just invited to for a departing leader in my volunteer organization.

      Have a Zoom send-off, just something light and fun. If you have people on your team who are into decorating and cheesy stuff, you can encourage them to decorate their desks or make posters or whatever. And you can all sing “For She’s A Jolly Good Fellow”.

      1. City Planner*

        Thanks for mentioning Kudoboard! That looks really great and helps solve my card dilemma.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Maybe arrange for a delivery of flowers, balloons, followed by a quick Zoom congratulating her and seeing her off?

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Remote happy hour, BYO cake? Spouse’s team have been having the occasional quiz (kahoot dot it – good for doing this remotely). Maybe theme a quiz around the year she started at the company, or throw questions in about her particularly (with caution! favourite fruit if there’s a running joke about her hating pineapple, but not a dig about her hairdressing fails).

    4. Alex*

      Can you send her a gift? Even just a bouquet of flowers or something similar that says “Happy Retirement!” would be nice.

    5. JessicaTate*

      My mom retired in April, and they threw her a Zoom party that she found really touching. It was near the end of her last day, and I think everyone was encouraged to have a beverage (including of the adult variety, if you were so inclined). They toasted her. And I think they went around the Zoom and everyone said something nice… something they would always remember about her, something they would miss about her, etc. It was funny and warm. She was pretty choked up by the end (even though she was pretty DONE with this company).

      And I think they might have mailed her a small gift… I can’t remember if there was some goodies (and this was only a few weeks into quarantine, so people were still adjusting). The guys she worked most closely with individually sent more meaningful gifts and cards.

    6. Joielle*

      One of my coworkers is retiring soon, and her boss invited everyone else to send in nice messages for her, which the boss will collate into some kind of card or booklet for her. And I think they’re sending her flowers on her last day.

      If your office is more social than mine, maybe a Zoom meeting with her immediate coworkers so people can share memories and send her off with some warm wishes? I think it would be too overwhelming to do with more than maybe 8 or 10 people, but that could be a nice facsimile of the conference room open house. One of my friends got married a couple of weeks ago and we did a virtual wedding reception where everyone decorated their own house and dressed up and did toasts over Zoom and it was really nice – maybe a work version of that.

    7. Academic Librarian*

      Send her a gift from Edible Arrangements — they are wonderful! They are made up of cut fresh fruit that you can eat immediately — pineapples, melons, strawberries, etc.

    8. Anony vas Normandy*

      We did a surprise auto parade for a retiring faculty member last week. Her husband was told, so he could get her out into the yard, and everyone stayed in their own cars and otherwise practiced good social distancing. Some people decorated their cars with crafts stuff they had on hand. If your whole team is in one town/your retiree has someone living with her who can get her outside/she lives in a place where it’s safe to go out, she might enjoy that.

  35. two questions*

    1. Do people just not know how to manage their emails? I know management receive crazy numbers of emails, but from what I’ve seen my non-managerial coworkers just don’t have a good system in place. I personally love being cc’d so I’m at least in the know (even if I don’t have to do anything), so I cc my team members maybe 10-15 emails a day, and apparently that overwhelms them.

    2. Has anyone survived the corporate world being nonconfrontational? I often find myself being blamed for doing exactly what I was told to do simply because that person forgot what they said to me. I find it really awkward to say, “Actually, what YOU said was…” because that’s bound to make the person feel bad. Also, I know some people say to document everything in an email to CYA, but I also can’t imagine a situation where somebody starts blaming me for something, then I stop them to print out an email where I wrote down “Per your request…”, and show it to them. My position isnt high profile enough for me to suffer serious consequences, but I do feel if I keep not correcting anything, thus implicitly admitting I was making the mistake on my own behalf, it can damage my reputation as a reliable employee.

    1. not_kate_winslet*

      Do your team members really *need* to be cc’d on that many emails every day? My rule of thumb is that unless they specifically need that information because it’s actionable, or in their chain of command and in a “need to know” situation, or another really good reason, there’s really no need to include another person in a cc. This would probably drive me nuts too. It’s not a matter of email management, it’s about the time and distraction involved to look at it to decide whether or not it’s important.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      1. So I just went and counted the number of emails I received yesterday: 105. I’d say that’s on the slightly higher side of average for me, but well short of what I’d consider a “busy” day. I don’t think that the number is the issue, more likely the relevance is the issue. What percentage of those cc’s would you say are for general “FYI” purposes versus those that the recipient really does need the information at that moment (as opposed to, say, getting a summary once the situation has been resolved or executed)? Based on the limited details you’ve provided here, my best guess is that people are receiving a lot of email that they don’t need perhaps regarding situations that they have no control over or input into. 10 to 15 emails about a critical situation that involves me wouldn’t be so many. But 10-15 emails every day about subjects that I’m not involved in would feel like a lot.

    3. peachie*

      1. Eek, it me. I do my best but am not an organized person. I’m in awe of and intimidated by anyone who has a perfectly-clean, well-organized inbox. How!

      1. peachie*

        (Not actually asking how, I am about as good as I’m going to get, I’m just amazed.)

      2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Me too. I’m highly organized in some areas but for whatever reason I find it hard to not lose emails. I get a lot of stuff and important things just get lost (none of this is work email, by the way, just my personal projects). Maybe I just don’t know how to use gmail effectively? It seems determined to put some important things under the “social” or “promotions” tabs even if I manually set them to primary.

      3. Sally Cat*

        I don’t even try for a perfectly clean inbox. I use some folders and delete older and completely irrelevant stuff. To me, that’s what the search function is for. I don’t feel bad about it either!

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I would ignore your cc’d emails. Sorry. I’m at a point where I’m flooded with emails about my direct projects and that in itself is overwhelming. Unless you were part of a project and I was waiting on information from you, I would ignore and delete the emails.

      2. Amy Sly*

        Or at best, set up a rule to automatically push them to a folder that I only check when someone asks about the project in question.

        With my work email, I’m ruthless about folders — the only things that get to stay in my in-box are things I need to do something about. Everything else gets moved to a folder, sometimes with only the most cursory glance to determine if it might be important.

    5. juliebulie*

      1. Rather than forward 10 to 15 emails a day to all your teammates, maybe consider doing ONE summary email? That could be helpful and useful and non-disruptive.

      2. Don’t think of it as yelling “AHA!!!!! But here is YOUR email where you asked me to do this.” Instead say, “oh sorry, did I misunderstand this email you sent me?” (where it clearly tells you to do that thing.)

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I think you are unusual in wanting to be cc’d on stuff that you don’t need to do anything with. I suggest that you take what you are hearing from your co-workers as their truth and stop doing what many people would find irritating, and critically, what your co-workers are telling you is irritating. Most people don’t have time to read emails for FYI.

    7. A*

      1. Oh no, please reconsider! I understand the inclination, but unless you know for a fact what your colleagues email/workload volume is like this can get messy quickly. I’ve had to have conversations with several function leads about this. I work on 6+ projects at a time, but several of our junior staff members might only have 1-2. While it might seem to them like it would be helpful to CC me as an FYI, it isn’t actually when that’s happening across the board with all projects. If I need information, I will request it – or ask to be included on the chain. Otherwise it’s going to be filed away and I will assume it truly is FYI only. Without this kind of clutter, I receive ~200 emails per 24hrs, and since I’m in a global position the flow truly never stops.

      2. It doesn’t always need to be confrontational, per say – but I do think assertiveness is crucial for success. I have to take the approach of CYA due to the nature of my position / amounts of money involved, and it’s not at all uncommon (not just for me, but in general, and across all industries I’ve worked in) to forward/attach the email backup and say something along the lines of ‘In regards to XYZ, I reached out to the supplier on X date (correspondence attached) based on your request made on Y date (also attached). Please let me know if I have misunderstood the request.’

      And it doesn’t happen often, but there have been a few times where I’ve pulled up emails/documents in a meeting to backup whatever it is that is being questioned. Everyone on the teams does, it’s a waste of time to beat around the bush or point fingers etc. we just handle it with full transparency in a direct/blunt manner, and move on. It’s not like a court of law where my colleague who has been ‘proven wrong’ or whatever is going to be carted off as a result.

      TL;DR: assertiveness is more important than being confrontational. I personally have not met or worked with anyone above a mid-level position that is not a strong self-advocate capable of confident assertiveness.

    8. Half-Caf Latte*

      Your tone here reads as judgemental, and if I had a coworker who insisted on CCing me on things because that’s their preference, even after being told not to, it would make me question their ability to critically think.

      I’m also confused about how these two issues dovetail. In my experience, the CYA emailers are also the ones who cc the world, so I’m fascinated how you’re including your whole team on all your communications but still having (frequent?) miscommunications.

    9. I'm A Little Teapot*

      1. Your preference is not automatically everyone else’s preference. You are probably way over cc’ing. Dial it back. Unless they do actually NEED to know, or have asked/generally prefer to be in the know, don’t include them.

      2. There is a difference between nonconfrontational and being a doormat. Right now, you’re being a doormat. I don’t necessarily do CYA emails with everything and everyone. You start to figure out when they’re likely to be needed, or which people are going to pull that kind of crap. For example, there’s one manager on my team who is a tool, and he will try to throw anyone under the bus instead of take responsibility for his screwups. I always CYA with him, because it’s needed. Other people, not as much of an issue.

    10. Me*

      Because you like being cc-d you’re ccing others. Whether or not they like it or really need to know. They’re giving you apparently clear feedback that they don’t need or want it and you chalk that up to them to not managing their stuff as opposed to your behavior being the issue?

      I’m going to suggest you take a very large step back and reconsider if those people actually have a need to know. An FYI is because it may come up in their work or affect them not just so they know what is going on around them.

      90% of things I’m ccd on I do not care and don’t need to know.

    11. Mockingjay*

      1) Can you ask yourself why you are cc’ing coworkers? What’s the value added? Is the email something they need to proceed in their task, or is it just general awareness? If the latter, I would not copy them, especially if the info is available elsewhere or widely known. If they really need to know something specific, they can contact you directly. Too much of anything is the same as nothing.

    12. International Klein Blue*

      In reverse order:

      2. “I find it really awkward to say, “Actually, what YOU said was…” because that’s bound to make the person feel bad.“ That is kind of you, but I gather that this other person has no problem making *you* feel badly over *their* mistake? No, I don’t think these conversations should become pathological arguments, but I *do* think that if you don’t stand up for yourself, you’re opening yourself up for bullying AND you’re letting these people get away with sloppy work, which is not good for the company.

      I think you need to start small: practice something like “but your email said I should do X”. And then when you get back to your desk, find the email, highlight the words in question, and send it to them. Set the Subject line to “Re X” but don’t add anything else – the highlighted words will say enough all by themselves.

      Good luck.

    13. International Klein Blue*

      1. Two things: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Cc’ing people on work-related emails, as long as you provide a descriptive Subject: line.

      And: you are correct, most people use email poorly and inefficiently. This isn’t meant as an insult – most email systems tend to *encourage* poor use, because the UI is almost always a list and sub folders – the usage paradigm is like a filing cabinet. But you can get a lot better results from email if you consider it a database – perhaps think “google for just my email” – and search on keywords versus scrolling down the list and hopping from sub folder to sub folder. Oh, and these days, there’s rarely a reason why you should delete anything (except for egregious SPAM, and most systems nowadays do a pretty good job of filtering that stuff out automatically).

      But most email clients stick with their ‘antiquated’ UI. And while many email clients offer some advanced features (“put all email to/from Bob in the Bob folder and raise it to the top when new items arrive”) most people don’t take advantage of them.

      (In case you wonder, a similar case can be made for a computer file system: most file systems present like a forest of trees[1], and most users use an ‘explorer’ interface to navigate the forest. But there’s a lot to be said for treating the file system like a database. Apple and Windows both provide a very basic “search” capability, but it could be much better).

      [1] look at VM/CMS for an example of one that does *not*.

      1. Brownie*

        Oh my goodness! I’d never thought to consider my email as a database before, but that’s exactly how I’ve been using it, as a searchable repository, and why I’m the go-to person in my team for finding anything that’s been sent via email. I’ll have to reframe how I talk about email with people and see if I can’t get folks thinking about it as a database instead so maybe they won’t be quite so overwhelmed and frustrated with their inboxes.

    14. RagingADHD*

      I assume your judgy complaint about people not being able to manage their emails is because someone asked you to stop inundating them with spam?

      If you are blasting 10-15 emails a day to coworkers who don’t need and have not requested that information, they are not the problem. You are wasting their time and making it more onerous for them to do their jobs.

      Question #2 sounds like you are concerned about having a good reputation at work. If so, being the person everyone puts on “mute” or “filter” is not serving you well.

  36. Potential ID*

    Hey, are there any instructional designers here? If so, can you tell me a bit about your path to ID? I’m currently doing IT (database admin) and I mostly hate it, but I love working with people and teaching them about technology. I also have some experience with building courses in an LMS from working at a university’s instructional technology department a few years back. I’m curious what your educational/career path was and what you felt benefited you most in achieving your job.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. new kid*

      I came in sideways through an early career technical writing and then went back to get my Masters in Ed Tech. I do think most ID positions are looking for a masters so that may be one path if you don’t mind getting additional education.

      That said being a subject matter expert can matter more in some jobs than direct ID experience, so if you already have experience in tech and want to train on that specifically, I’d look for industry jobs with language like “experience in x preferred” where x is the experience you have from your current career. That may be your best bet if you’re not interested in pursuing additional education.

      1. Lyudie*

        Same here. A couple decades of writing then made a switch a few years ago. I think the writing background was helpful. I’m doing my MEd 100% online.

        It sounds like you enjoy delivering the training as well as creating it, and that will be a great selling point for you. My company has separate trainers and IDs but lots of places will have one person who does both. The technical pieces are great too, again we have separate technologists but smaller places might have the ID doing some of that work as well.

    2. periwinkle*

      I started off in IT doing tech support and some database work. Now I’m in the learning team for a Fortune 50 corporation… When I was in IT I handled training projects for both teammates and internal customers, and really enjoyed it. A combination of that plus seeing terrible management firsthand led me toward an interest in workplace performance. Being a regular AAM reader since 2009 or so helped! Hit a major bump when my employer imploded, wound up doing temp clerical work in an HR department, and discovered the HR-related field of training & development.

      Having a masters is pretty much standard in the field because you need to understand adult learning theory in order to build effective learning solutions. It’s not mandatory to have the grad degree but you really should acquire the knowledge. To move into the field, I earned my masters from the superb program (100% online) at Boise State University. I lucked into my first job through a fellow alumnus, got some experience, and then landed an ID job at my current employer. Since then I’ve moved laterally around to other learning teams.

      Learning technology is a big thing now. Many IDs can create learning with the usual software packages. Not many are skilled at understanding technology, thinking in terms of integrated system architecture, writing APIs, and so on. There’s also a growing emphasis on creating holistic solutions which connect formal learning with electronic knowledge support and hands on (experiential) reinforcement of learning. Tech is driving learning and as we’ve experienced, it’s even more important now to leverage tech.

      One more thing – business acumen is also critical. Don’t focus so narrowly on learning that you neglect the context. As a learning specialist my job is not to create courses. It’s to improve workplace performance. Learning solutions are just a tool to get that improvement. Thinking of it this way is the difference between being a cost center vs being a value creator. IMO, of course!

    3. Anom-a-lom-a-ding-dong*

      I’m an instructional designer/systems trainer who took a winding path to get there. I originally wanted to be a teacher, and my degree was in English, but I ended up not being able to find a good teaching job when I graduated, so I decided to go the corporate route and try to find something that still allowed me to teach.

      My strategy was taking jobs that got me progressively closer and closer to full-time training/instructional design. My first few jobs were in a technical support/customer service setting that had a training component- they had me deliver live/remote training. Eventually, at one place, I had a really great manager and so I decided to make it clear to them that training/instructional design was my main interest. I was a strong performer in general, too, so they didn’t have any problem using me when new training materials needed to be created. They took a chance on me, for sure- I was starting from scratch when it came to video production and LMS/curriculum development, and I had to teach myself almost everything. That said, it worked out- after I proved that I could do it, they promoted me to a role that was completely focused on developing and delivering new training for their products.

      Working in customer service actually taught me a lot about being a good trainer. It was super valuable to know how to listen to a customer’s question or issue and figure out what their real needs are. I know it sounds simple, but “needs assessments” are a huge part of my job now, and the best way to build that skill is practice. A lot of what I do now is work in a consulting sort of role, where I listen to what’s going on and then create a customized plan/training materials for my “customers” (they’re all internal- I mostly work with IT). Knowing how to use the tools to create training is important too, but there are so many youtube tutorials and instructions online than I didn’t have much trouble with that. Plus, once you’ve gotten used to a few of them, it’s easier to pick up new ones.

      It’s funny- out of all the training professionals/instructional designers I know, most of them came in through other fields. I don’t know a lot of people who took formal classes and got an ID job right out of college. That might just be anecdotal on my part, though!

    4. Fabulous*

      I got be degree in theatre, then worked in financial services for several years where I was always the one to train on new systems or when a new person joined the team. I always kept detailed binders on common instructions, etc. so I got really good at identifying each step needed in a process, as well as where processes could be streamlined or refined to make something easier down the line. The training bit just seemed to fall in my lap at each sequential job I held, and if it didn’t, I naturally found ways to incorporate it, such as implementing a quick training for new hires on expense reimbursement, etc.

      My current job doing instructional design started similarly. I was called in as a temp for a sales admin role, had to make sense of chicken-scratch notes from the old employee, and put together a comprehensive binder on the role. The training team took notice as I was updating a lot of the processes that affected how and what they train new hires and I got brought onto that team to update their training presentations. From there, they tasked me with creating new training content, then creating sample files to make sure everything was branded appropriately and followed the same templates.

      After a merger, team member turnaround and a corporate realignment, I’m now officially in an ID role and recognized for my work :)

  37. Leah*

    I am currently employed, but actively applying for jobs. I’d like to update my LinkedIn profile, but worried about tipping off my employer. Should I do it or leave my profile alone/hide it?

    1. new kid*

      I believe you can update your profile but set it not to ‘notify’ eg. your updates aren’t announced, just there for anyone who’s actively looking at it. That’s probably your best bet, as no one from your current job is likely checking your actually page frequently enough to notice changes on their own (I would hope!)

      1. A*

        Yup, this is what I’ve done in the past when in that situation! Moving forward I’d recommend starting to update your profile (and allowing the update alert to go out) every 6 months or so, that way you don’t need to worry about it raising a red flag.

        It also serves as a helpful reminder to keep job / responsibility descriptions up to date and reflecting advances made in the last 6 months!

      2. Diluted Tortoiseshell*

        Do this and also update it over several weeks. Maybe each weekend you do a chunk and then set “notifications” off on each one.

    2. Leah*

      Thank you for replying. My employer actually asked us individually if we planned on staying or leaving the company which surprised me.
      I do think I can tweak a few things without setting off alarms.

  38. FML*

    I just found out my new coworker has the same salary as I do. It was an accident how I found out, but I am pissed. We recently got a pay cut so everyone is hurting for money. However this guy is completely incompetent. The smallest tasks take him hours! The work environment isn’t great either, and I’ve been looking for jobs for the last few months. Unfortunately I’m in an industry are the typical job search can take months if not up to a year. Help.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, it stings to think about it, but people get bigger salaries because they negotiate well or are charismatic, it has nothing to do with their competence.

        1. pancakes*

          It doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with their negotiating skills or charisma. Sometimes, perhaps often, the bigotry of the employer is the cause.

          1. Eeeek*

            Sometimes people in the same role get the same pay regardless of how good they actually are in the job. We’ve seen letters here discouraging reducing someone’s pay for being bad at their job. Maybe it’s one of those things where junior X with 2 yr experience gets this much money. That happens at my work and then some people perform well and others obviously not.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Uh, we don’t know the race of the co-worker in question. Nor do we have reason to believe that race is relevant here.

        People doing the same job generally get (or at least, are supposed to get) the same pay. If someone simply doesn’t belong in the job in the first place because they’re incompetent, that’s a totally different issue.

        1. Fikly*

          Supposed to and reality are not the same thing. Just look at the gender wage gap.

          And even if this particular coworker is not white, there are so many white males making more than their more competent non white male coworkers. So of course we have reason to believe that race is relevant here.

          I’m going to guess you are both white and male, because your default is denying this is a problem.

          1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

            But in this case the two workers are in fact getting the same pay. So a few white workers making more than a few non-white workers elsewhere is not actually relevant here.

            Occam’s Razor: An incompetent person is making as much as a competent person doing the same job. That’s all there is to it.

            1. Fikly*

              Except they’re not doing the same job. They have the same job title. That’s two different things. Action and name are not the same.

              1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

                Same job title generally means the same job unless we have specific reason to believe otherwise. And so far we don’t.

                (And if they were doing different jobs, FML would have even less reason to complain of his or her situation relative to the incompetent co-worker’s.)

                1. Fikly*

                  Same job title generally means same job responsibilities. It does not mean the two people are producing the same work.

                  Incompetent usually means they are not completing the work to standard. Thus they should not be earning the same pay.

                  You have the luxury of denying reality exists. Those of us who are penalized for not being white males do not.

                2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

                  Fikly,

                  Same job title generally means same job responsibilities. It does not mean the two people are producing the same work.

                  Incompetent usually means they are not completing the work to standard. Thus they should not be earning the same pay.

                  That’s…the very reality we’ve been discussing all along. An Incompetent Person X, supposed to be doing the same things as Competent Person Y, but not doing them (that’s how incompetence works, after all), but still being paid the same.

                  Take your race-baiting elsewhere, please.

              2. BBBBB*

                You are working real hard here to turn this into a completely different conversation. I don’t disagree with your points… but…. perhaps this is not the time/place? I don’t see the direct connection, and I think the situation merits exploring beyond the assumed confines of race. Absolutely worth mentioning as a strong possibility – but why do you keep pushing? We literally don’t know and additional context hasn’t been provided. Continuing to push this is not helpful to commenter?

              3. Eeeek*

                One is successful in that job and one is not. But people are typically hired in at a rate and generally they don’t get pay cuts just for sucking they usually get fired or ignored forever. So my guess is he will be ignored. We don’t even know the OPs gender or race and we don’t know the incompetent workers race. So we know 1/4 which makes assumptions hard.

    2. Fabulous*

      No advice, but commiseration… I had a job once where I was the “senior” employee (not in overall experience, but in tenure) and I found out the new guy literally made more than $10k more than me – and I was at a $34k salary, had just gotten denied a $2k increase even though I had 2 years tenure, passed a difficult certification and was doing a completely different job than I was hired to do. I understood that the new guy had more overall experience than me in the field, but he was still messing up left and right :/

      1. Windchime*

        Story time: I know a young woman who had many years of experience and institutional knowledge. She was well respected at her workplace. Then some new people were hired at a higher rate than her. She was upset and asked for a salary to reflect her years of service and experience. Management said no. So the young woman quit and got a job doing the same thing as a contractor for TONS more money than she had ever dreamed of, and she lived happily ever after. The end.

        (No, it wasn’t me, but it was someone incredibly smart who I used to work with and I was happy to see her come out on top of the situation.)

  39. Hedgehog*

    I’m struggling with the never-ending-ness of trying to work from home productively (along with parenting a small child half the time). Does anyone have tips for helping reset or get new energy around this? What have you found helpful?

    1. White Peonies*

      For my 3 year old and me these help.
      -daily schedule that we have written out on a white board so I know when to stop and walk away and my daughter gets to mark off what has been done.
      -Lunch away from the computer we have been having lunch on our front porch, its tiny and we had to wear jackets last week but it helps.
      -Nap time for both of us even if we just lay and be quiet its nice, we set a timer.
      -Exercise time – we break for 5-15 minutes 3 or 4 times a day and run to the end of the street and back, do jumping jacks, jump rope on the deck, anything to get us moving and out of breath.
      -turning off the TV helped us, we were using it for background noise now we play a piano radio channel on low and it has helped

      Just for my daughter to keep her from driving me nuts:
      -we have a seek and find two or three times a day where I hide a porcelain bear and she searches the house for it.
      -I work at the sink in my bathroom for an hour or so a day so she can swim in the tub

    2. A Non E. Mouse*

      Seconding to step away for lunch. A walk is nice; a few days we built a fort (either in the living room or out on the deck, when the weather was nice) and had our lunch in there.

      It’s not a restful lunch hour, but does seem to be “enough” of my attention and time to get me a decent chunk of the afternoon free to work.

      Setting a timer has helped on bad days where my youngest just really wants attention and I have work to do – I set the timer and say Ok, I need to work for this long, then we can make popcorn/read a book/whatever. He then just comes and gets me when the timer on the stove goes off – and I have quiet time until then.

    3. Generic Name*

      I step away from my desk and cook something quick for me and my son for lunch. I also take the dog for a walk with my son every afternoon. I’m also realizing I’m spending a ton of time with my kid…

  40. Retail not Retail*

    Is there a reason my boss got so cagey when I asked what I would be doing this weekend?

    We need to clean the pit. It smells bad and the humidity makes the smell worse. Good thing we got this whole mask culture now.

    I said Am I on the pit crew? “Why do you need to know?” “So I can dress for it and know what to expect.” “Assume you’ll be doing it Friday or Saturday.”

    Looking at Friday, it does not look like I’ll be doing it tomorrow because something else is priority.

    He just never tells us what we’re doing until the opening meeting. Those of us who work Fri-Sat actually have an advantage as we can usually get an idea what those 2 days hold if he’s put the schedule outline up.

    Of course our plans change for numerous reasons, I’m not asking for stuff to be in stone! Hell, we were locked out of the office with our morning tools today.

    But – you’ll be working with sharp plants or in the poison ivy this week, bring protective gear. You’ll probably be in mud. Just something dude throw me a bone.

    (He’s also been keeping COVID stuff from us and I am livid. He had us clocking out the whole time we were closed while we were getting paid our 40 hours no matter what. He also had us working 40 hours until other department heads went above him and got him to stop. Why is he like this and what can I do to handle it besides making sure my welding sleeves are always in my car?

    1. Retail not Retail*

      Clocking in and out is unsafe – there are 2 clocks in the whole park in small rooms.

      The executives have known our pay was safe for a few months – my manager chose to tell us every two weeks whether we’d have work the next 2 weeks.

    2. Jr. Woodworker*

      That sounds frustrating as hell (and making you guys use the punch clock when you didn’t even have to! That’s infuriating). Is it a power-trip/is he a power-tripping kind of person in general, or is he just weird about this stuff?

      1. Amy Sly*

        Or so disorganized that he genuinely doesn’t know? It makes it no less of a problem, but sometimes the reframing can help.

        2. Retail not Retail*

          We just don’t know! He really wants to stuff to return to normal and it’s just not.

          I left early wednesday because I was falling over exhausted after 3 hours of work.

          Well he did that job after lunch and discovered it was too hard for one person to do.

          But I did it yesterday and today and probably tomorrow. I mean at least he does some of the same stuff we do to prove it can be done.

  41. Brownie*

    Need venting options in order to stay professional and not turn into That Pessimistic Perfectionist.

    My frustration levels with my manager are reaching all-time highs and I’m finding myself so upset at his buffoonery and incompetence that the urge to vent to my coworkers is nigh-on irresistible. If we were all in the office it’d be a quick mutual “UGH *eye roll*” with coworkers and then done, but now that we’re all WFH I don’t have that quick and minor pressure venting, so it’s all building up like an over-fired steam engine. I’ve tried venting to my dog, to my BFFs, but none of them can provide the full vent release that someone else affected by my boss and therefore in the exact same boat can. What other options are there so I’m not venting over IM to my coworkers and destroying my reputation? Any suggestions for in the moment things I could do? Swearing is sometimes my only option since I can’t just get up and leave my desk in the moment and that’s just not cutting it right now.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      My closest coworker (who works the closest with our boss besides me) and I text via the app Snapchat to vent. The messages ‘disappear’ after you read them.

      (I’m sure they’re stored SOMEWHERE in the app… but you should be fine since it’s on your personal private phone. The person you are talking with can save your messages -it notifies you if they do – but my coworker and I just have an understanding that we aren’t saving these conversations)

      1. Princess Zelda*

        My understanding is that Snapchat deletes all messages after they’ve been viewed by the recipient, unless you specifically save them. It’s part of how they afford to keep going — they’re not paying for excess server space.

        1. Sadie*

          snapchat messages are truly gone after 72 hours. Even a subpoena or search warrant won’t get them back.

  42. Training Mayhem*

    I am a Training Manager and I’m in frequent contact with staff of all levels within my organization. I have been running into an issue lately where new employees come running to me to complain about their boss. I understand they feel they have a relationship with me because I am in so much contact with new employees during their first 6 months of employment. Sometimes, they just want to vent but sometimes they express real issues with their manager. Sometimes I agree with their feedback of their manager, but i stay nutural about it. What do i do in this situation?
    Any advice on what to say to these employees? Their manager is my peer. Neither one of us out ranks the other

    1. Half-Caf Latte*

      Can you focus your advice/response in terms of “here’s how we handle conflict at Llama Rama”?

      Jeez it sounds like you’re really frustrated, generally employees are expected to give that type of feedback directly to their manager, but if you have done that and it’s not getting you what you need, here’s who you could escalate it to?

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If there’s anything you think they can do to help the situation, tell them that. That’s what I would do with anyone, peer or subordinate. I mean, of course it depends on the complaint and the situation. But there’s no harm in suggesting they do something differently to get what they want, if you think it would be helpful to them.

    3. Fabulous*

      I would redirect them to someone who can help. Manager issue, maybe they go to HR for advice. If it’s an issue the manager can (or should) help them with, tell them so. They need to be aware of other resources other than yourself for things.

      Also, ask them what they have tried to do about it so far? Get them thinking about ways to answer their own questions.

    4. new kid*

      Could you channel their feedback into a new management training seminar that could benefit the manager(s) in question?

  43. Art3mis*

    I know Alison has said before that after interviewing for a job you don’t need to remind them that you’re still interested because they know you are from applying and interviewing. Is that always the case? I applied and interviewed for an internal position/promotion. They put it on hold for awhile and now it seems that two others on my team are getting it (there were two openings) because, as my manager said, they seemed more interested. When being told about them putting it on hold I said I was more than willing to help out and learn more about the role. I’m not sure what else I was supposed to do.

    1. Penguin*

      There are, unfortunately, always going to be hiring managers who expect applicants to conform to particular (unspoken) expectations and judge accordingly, but you can probably dismiss them as being anomalies. That said, things might be a little different when dealing with an internal promotion with the same manager? I can’t speak to that but maybe others can.

  44. Tone Deaf?*

    My very large company typically outright pays for or reimburses membership fees and dues for professional organizations.
    We are all WFH for the foreseeable future, executives took a pay cut, last month about 10% of the staff we’re laid off (a few furloughed), we lost or paused several projects in the office…
    Would it be totally tone deaf to ask for an $800 reimbursement right now? It’s not a strictly necessary membership (I am able legally able to do my job without it) but it’s a big deal in the industry to have these letters after your name.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think a lot of it depends on the people you’re asking, but you can always ask what the plan is for reimbursements and whether you should go ahead and submit your documents (assuming that’s the process) or you should hold off for a bit.

    2. tetris replay*

      Don’t eat the cost without at least asking the company. IMO, this is a business expense that the company *should* be planning for (but might not be). Send the polite email asking what the plans for reimbursements like this are; just asking about it isn’t tone deaf.
      Personally, I’d be horrified if my staff was trying to avoid asking for reimbursement for business expenses.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      If your company benefits from those letters after your name, ask about it. Simple email to your boss or whomever is in charge of those.
      Hey my X membership is up next month – should I send in the renewal paperwork and submit my reimbursement or opt out this year?
      I know for some memberships/classifications, the employer can only bid on certain jobs if someone on the team has that so it could be very beneficial for them and $800 is peanuts compared to the other cost cutting measures they are taking. They may say no but its worth asking.

    4. Nita*

      Is there a reason to go for the membership now, vs after things go back to normal? Unless there’s a deadline to signing up for membership, I’d just hold off on it until later.

      1. tetris replay*

        If this is a typical membership/certification, then they renew annually and you usually try to avoid having gaps in your membership.

  45. SQL Coder Cat*

    So I’ve been doing okay with the whole quarantine/working from home thing, although some days the walls seem to be closing in. And then… my department (IT) announced that as part of the University cost-cutting measures, we would be transitioning to full time work from home. We will not be renewing the lease on the workspace floors that would end later this year, and the remaining space will be turned into permanent hotdesks (both manager offices and cubicles). That space will also be phased out, but over the next few years.

    And now I am just depressed. I miss my team. I miss my stupid cubicle. I miss running into people from other teams and getting to hear what they’re doing. I can’t imagine working from home forever. I think my reaction is partially due to my complete lack of outside-the-house socialization right now, but it’s really crushed me.

    So… people who worked from home full time in the before days, how was it? How did you address not having all the casual interactions that come from working in an office?

    1. Mr. Cajun2core*

      I worked from home for 7 years. It is a difficult change. The main thing I would suggest is that you go out for lunch even if it is just to run to the grocery store. Get to know your neighbors. If you have neighbors who are home during the day, maybe plan a 5 to 10 minute walk with them or something during a break. Get out of the house during the day! That is the most important thing.

    2. Fikly*

      I was full time remote before all this, still am. I’m on a team of around 15, I would say about a third of us are remote, the other two thirds are in the office, but it’s a job with 24/7 shift coverage, so the people who work in the office are pretty much never all there at the same time, if that makes sense.

      Full disclosure – I don’t need a ton of social/people interaction, but I do need some!

      What works for me is that in my job, we inherently need to talk to each other as shifts overlap, to hand over important things to know about from one shift to the next. That means built in people time – we almost always do this over audio, though we also Slack a lot. And social interaction will get in there along with the work talk.

      I will also Slack on and off throughout my shift with the people also on (usually one or two other people) about common tasks, or just chatting a bit. You have to put in the effort to make the interactions happen, but they worked well enough for me.

      I also make a point of going out to get social interactions, and I don’t mean going out and spending time with friends. I mean things like going for a walk, running errands, chatting with people at my 2-4+ doctors appointments every week. I do PT twice a week, plus an individual Pilates session, that’s all people interaction.

      It’s enough for me, but it may not be enough for you. But I would look for ways to get interaction on purpose, rather than incidentally, as typically happens in an office.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      This is not normal WFH.

      I don’t need a lot of interaction with other people, so I don’t really miss being physically in a team day to day. But I do have school age children, so ordinarily I get the water cooler equivalent at the school gate, soccer practice, etc. There’s a community cafe I often drop into.

      When Spouse used to WFH full time, it was before we had children, and lived in a small apartment. He would be absolutely climbing the walls by the time I got in from work, and always wanted to go out, just for a change of scene. Meanwhile, after a three-hour round trip and a busy office, I just wanted to stay in and eat my dinner off my lap in front of the TV.

      So I’d say it depends hugely on your own personality, your home setup (can you designate a protected workspace and close the door on it at 5pm?) and your wider location and community.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        (realise that sounds contradictory … “There’s a community cafe I often drop into.” It is open once a week and I don’t go every time it’s open. So it’s often compared to the cafe, but not compared to working full time in a workplace with other people.)

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      Fellow higher ed person here– I’m sorry to hear this about your office! I WFH full time. When I took this job, I was coming from working on campus, and I really had a hard time for a while. I have grown to enjoy WFH and now can’t comprehend returning to an office.

      What has helped is texting regularly with my coworkers, having frequent calls/Zoom meetings, and trying to intentionally add a little personal life discussion in our communication. I’m generally very private so this last part is hard for me, but it’s essential to help maintain that collegial atmosphere.

    5. Mockingjay*

      One thing your department might want to plan for during this transition, is quarterly (or whatever makes sense) meetings, in which you all physically gather in a conference room somewhere (on campus, in a hotel conference space). Periodic face-to-face interaction can really help with team cohesiveness. It doesn’t solve the lack of daily interactions, but can help with big picture items. Example: If your department is going to launch a major upgrade, get everyone together for a kickoff meeting and assignments.

      Bring ideas like this up now, so they can be incorporated into the transition plan and budgeted.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        Yes!
        Consulting is inherently scattered to various client sites. We had monthly 2-hour training sessions in office (a mixture of soft skills and tool-specific), and semi-annual day-long gatherings for announcements and team-building. Both sorts of meetings also included a fair amount of just general chatter, as well ask asking for advice from the group about issues at our various clients.
        In addition, the consulting managers made a point of client visits, not just to keep in touch with the clients but also with the consultants. WFH isn’t exactly the same, obviously, but once the health-related lockdowns ease up, there’s no reason that managers couldn’t do the occasional coffee meeting somewhere midway between the office and employees’ homes – maybe by zip code or census tract.
        I just had a vision of an invitation to meet in a local park, “BYO lawn chair”.

    6. Clisby*

      I worked from home for 17-18 years before I retired. I loved it. I guess I didn’t need a lot of casual interactions from working in an office.

      For more context: I worked as a computer programmer for almost 9 years in an office. I liked the work, I liked my colleagues, I loved the fact that I had an office. With a door. That I could shut.

      About a year after I left that job (because we moved from Columbus, OH to Atlanta) my old job asked if I’d like to come back as a remote employee. This was about 1998? I agreed, and that was the rest of my working life. Maybe it would have been harder if I hadn’t worked for that employer before; as it was, I knew a lot of the people I wound up working with remotely, and we still had good working relationships.

      I never relied on my workplace colleagues for social contact, though. I liked them, and I even married one of them, but my main social life was outside work.

    7. allathian*

      Before COVID happened, I used to WFH a few days a month, not necessarily even every month. Now I’ve been WFH 10 weeks and we probably won’t go back to the office until September. I don’t need to go to the office for any part of my job, but I do miss running into people from other teams or even other departments and the casual chats. Those are much harder to arrange remotely than ordinary meetings.

    8. Windchime*

      No advice, but…….I think we may be coworkers, because this is my exact situation.

  46. New Senior Manager*

    Any recommendations for places to obtain leadership training certifications and/or project management certifications for my direct report who has zero experience in both?

    1. LQ*

      Honestly if your company has access to a Lynda/Linked in learning or skillshare or something like that you can do some intial training through that. Are you trying to get them fully up to PMP right away? there are some places that offer like weeklong intensive courses (I assume some online/have gone online) , but I’d be inclined to have them do a few self directed things to start with.

      1. New Senior Manager*

        No, not trying to get them to PMP right away. Trying to get their feet wet. Last week I wrote about the direct report who made donuts and other treats regularly, great worker, but grand boss felt she was too sweet and well-liked in the office to hold a leadership or management position. I asked for more feedback and was told she basically needed an image overhaul. This didn’t surprise me because someone here mentioned that last week. He recommended she gain leadership, management, and/or project management certification before allowing her to have even a small role with leadership responsibilities. I will look into your suggestion. Thanks!

        1. LQ*

          I’d definately look into some of the online classes then. If your company doesn’t pay for stuff lots of local libraries have services like Linked in learning (formerly Lynda) that you can use (online) with just a library card. They’ve got a wide range of stuff. I did one on transitioning from individual contributor to leader a while ago that was decent too, some like that may be useful.

  47. Seeking Second Childhood*

    This is a bit tangential — is there any hope of getting a phone number off the web when the business is defunct?
    We moved to this house 3 years ago. We’ve always gotten a few calls to the business who used to have the number before us. But now that we’re working from home, we’re fielding sometimes a dozen calls a week. Apparently many accumulator websites list the old business as if it’s still open. It’s not — as far as I can tell, the owners aren’t even in town any longer. I’ve been unable to get any site to remove the number because I’m not the business owner.
    Suggestions?

    1. Annie Moose*

      Honestly your best bet would likely be to talk to your phone company about getting a new number.

      1. Anonymous because reasons*

        Yes this^
        When I moved into my home the phone number had apparently been used as a forwarding number for Microsoft IT support…I got a lot of technical questions from all over the world :/
        The only thing that stopped it was the phone company changing my number, and putting the old number out of service.

    2. AnnieG*

      How do the accumulator sites know you’re not the business owner? Can’t you just contact them and pretend you are?

    3. A*

      Is it a landline, I assume? If so, I’d recommend just changing the number. Or ditching it altogether.

  48. LGC*

    A word of advice: even in the middle of a pandemic, it is probably not appropriate to sing along to Megan Thee Stallion while in the office. (In most workplaces.)

    In other news, my first week semi back to work has gone all right.

    1. Atheist Nun*

      But what if you’re singing 20 seconds of one of her songs while you are washing your hands? Then it becomes a public health matter and you’re justified for being hygienic, right?

  49. JustaTech*

    Is this as bad as I think?

    My work just created a Women at Work group as some sort of mentorship group (company’s only been in business since 1995, but whatever), and they are #whatglassceiling.

    Am I out of line thinking that’s a terrible hastag? Like, what glass ceiling? How about that one labeled “no women in any kind of supervisor/leadership roles in 3 departments” or “only one woman in the C-suite” or the glass ceiling covered in spikes “no childcare now”? How about those glass ceilings?

    I just feel like you don’t address a real problem by pretending it’s not there.
    Am I being unreasonable? Should I be grateful we’re at least having this conversation?

    4. Jr. Woodworker*

      I don’t think you’re being unreasonable at all. Even if they’re not /purposely/ trying to ignore what sounds like a legitimate problem with sexism at your company, #whatglassceiling sounds like a ra-ra-girlpower slogan to me. Something that’s marketable and ‘feel-good’ without necessarily driving any change. I mean, some people like that stuff, so it /might/ be ok as one small part of a much larger effort to address sexism, but sounds like that’s not the case.

      1. JustaTech*

        I’m thinking it might also be related to the fact that the people on this “employee resource group” are all in the few parts of the org that *do* have women all the way up the reporting structure.

        That and they seem to have forgotten that a whole department (with a lot of women, just not above “manager”) even exists, because they didn’t ask anyone to be on their start-up committee.

        So far all they’ve done is send out some links to some webinars, so it will be interesting to see what they do going forward.

        1. No Tribble At All*

          Oh goody, that’s two spots on my bingo card. The only C-suite women are in HR? Awkward and unrealistic hashtag? What’s next, telling me to lean in?

          1. JustaTech*

            Aha, not HR! The woman who was in charge of HR quit so now we have a guy who was in the Navy (all his Navy stuff is in the background of his video calls). The only woman in the C-suite is the COO.

            And now that I think about it, all the people I know who are involved in running this “Women at Work” thing are in her org. (In normal times I’d be literally downstairs and maybe they would have remembered we exist, but with the WFH I’m not surprised they forgot us. We’re not what you’d call brilliant at communication, as a company.)

            A while back a group of women in my building wanted to do a book group of Lean In but someone (don’t know who) squashed it.

            1. No Tribble At All*

              Let me add self-imposed bias to my bingo card, then! ;) My company is very tech-y, so the only parts that have more than 25% women are HR and finance. Yet most of the managers in those department are men, too.

              I guess good for your COO that she wants to promote and support the women in her department? (I don’t know what a COO really does).

              Did you support Lean In? I haven’t read it, but I’ve seen articles critiquing it. What would you want out of a Women at Work program?

              1. JustaTech*

                I haven’t read Lean In, so I can’t say if I support it or not, though I know there’s a lot of lively discussion about how effective it can be. (My polite way of saying “raging controversy online”.)

                What I’d like to get is:
                Decent parental leave. (Maternity is like, 3 months? but paternity is 2 weeks. If we’re getting pawternity leave (for your pets), we need to have more leave for new kids.)
                Acknowledgement that there are several departments that are very male dominated and at least some reflection on why that is.
                Mentorship for women in *any* department and some real upward mobility.
                A general culture shift about listening to women who say “[Dude] talks down to me regularly and does not respect my knowledge, expertise or work.” (I just realized we haven’t had anti-harassment training in like 3-4 years. Oops.)

                I know a lot of that is a stretch, but would be nice to at least try.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      I agree that I hate the hashtag, but I am guessing it is intended to be aspirational, not factual.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, I could see where it might be intended defiantly, but a situation like this isn’t the right place for ambiguity.

  50. Cheesehead*

    My lovely state Supreme Court has decided to strike down our shelter in place order. I work for a small-ish non-profit, only 8 employees. My boss is telling us we will be back in the office on Monday since the order has been lifted. The real kicker is that the nonprofit we work for promotes quality in healthcare settings. Do we have any room to fight back here? Everyone is absolutely livid.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Oh hey der! :)
      I think you can push back – especially as a group if everyone is upset – about it. Point out the cities/counties/businesses in our state who are *not* going back to business as usual right away! In particular, if you know of other nonprofits or businesses similar to yours, see what they’re doing and hopefully you’ll find some really relevant examples.

      1. Cheesehead*

        That is a good point. The fact is that there is absolutely no reason to go back into the office. The transition to remote working has been seamless. And if we are back in the office, I will be sitting in my office with the door shut, not taking in-person group meetings, and having people call me if they need me… How is that any different than working from home but infinitely more inconvenient and dangerous.

      2. Cheesehead*

        Also hey der fellow cheesehead. Doncha know, this whole thing is a real mess. Hope you are hanging in there the best you can. And if not, at least liquor stores are deemed essential in the counties/municipalities that implemented the safer at home order on their own?

    2. Sky blue*

      Where specifically are you? Some counties or cities are instituting stay at home rules for their locations. It’s going to be a crazy quilt of chaos.

      1. Cheesehead*

        I am in Dane County, as is my workplace, so we should not even be going in to the office.

    3. JessicaTate*

      Absolutely push back! Just because stay-at-home is lifted doesn’t mean you HAVE to leave home. I think your nonprofit mission is a good thing to lean on as well, as it would align you with what public health officials are saying. I’m in a metro area that just lifted stay-at-home restrictions. But health officials have been clear: lifting that restriction doesn’t mean “back to normal;” it still means, if your work CAN be done from home, it SHOULD be done from home.

      It might be different if you had services that needed to happen on-site, or if there are employees for whom WFH is problematic. But it sounds like y’all have consensus that this is unnecessary.

      Good luck. Between this and the election last month, your Supreme Court is bananacrackers!

      1. Cheesehead*

        Thanks for your comment. The consensus is that it is absolutely shortsighted and ridiculous. Please do not let our Legislature and Supreme Court reflect poorly on our magnificent state. We are a fun and beer-loving people.

  51. Repair Trust*

    Does anyone have any advice for trying to repair a professional relationship and trust with a more senior employee (not my manager, but in a leadership role)?

    For context, everyone else I work with seems to think I’ve always been great to work with and have done swimmingly (my manager, coworkers on my team, mentors, etc.), I just have always had a somewhat rocky relationship with this one lead and have thrice fucked up in a way that meant he had to help me clean up the mess. I have profusely apologized and worked to not to fuck up again. My manager has told me that those mistakes were understandable, expected to happen for someone at my level, and really small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, but I can tell the lead is now really skeptical of my work. (The mistakes have essentially been of this nature: I work for a couple days on something, but then it turns out the assumptions I made were not entirely correct, so then it has to be re-done. There was no real deadline for the tasks, per se, but I had wasted my time when I should have reached out to verify I was on the right track earlier. To keep things moving, the lead jumps in and “helped,” but basically just did things himself while I watched).
    I can still feel that things between us are tense. I am tying to be much more proactive about reaching out and giving more detailed updates so people can jump in if they spot something wrong, but the tension between us has been giving me serious foot-in-mouth syndrome. I can give good written updates, but when he asks me what’s going on in meetings, I just sound like an idiot. He hasn’t really directly addressed the incidents, besides when I apologized, but I don’t know if I should? So far I’ve just been trying to stay accountable, but it’s hard when I feel like this guy may hate me.

    1. Diluted Tortoiseshell*

      I would let it go. Don’t worry about his perception anymore. It’s going to make you stressed. It sounds like the lead is the one with the messed up expectations and has the repairing to do, not you.

      I’d just be professional, stop apologizing, and send in your work. If the lead keeps making comments about your mistakes, especially if it’s in front of others, then bring it up in the moment.

      Example:
      You: Here is my TPS report.
      Lead: Did you make sure to enter the numbers on section 5 this time?
      You: You bring that up a lot – is there a problem with my work you’d like to discuss?
      Lead: Well you did mess it up.
      You: Yes I did make that mistake the first time I did the report 6 months ago. Have there been errors since then I’m not aware of?

      Who knows – maybe there are more errors. Maybe this will signal to the lead he’s focusing on a one-off mistake too much. If it’s in public it will signal to others the lead is being unreasonable.

    2. A Non E. Mouse*

      For context, everyone else I work with seems to think I’ve always been great to work with and have done swimmingly (my manager, coworkers on my team, mentors, etc.), I just have always had a somewhat rocky relationship with this one lead

      I mean…sounds like a him problem, not a you problem.

      If you work well with everyone else, and it’s always weird with him…I would guess whatever is happening is bad communication on his part, adjust my expectations of how (not) smoothly working with him will go, and then proceed to not care as much.

    3. LGC*

      I think that part of the issue is that he’s picked up on a pattern where you make (at the time) major mistakes that he feels like he’s stuck repairing. Which might not be the truth, but that’s his perspective. And…admittedly, it’s kind of hard to come back from that.

      I think what’s actually helped me fix my opinion with people junior to me is when I find out that while they’re not great at X, they are great at Y (another task). So you might have messed up on your assumptions! Is there a way to make your work more adaptable? Is there something else that you can do?

      And also, that might just be…the way he is. I’d ask your boss, if she’s a peer to him and has had experience working with him, if he just tends to hold grudges. It might give you some comfort if you just know that it’s not you (or it’s not all you), it’s him.

    4. Darren*

      So it sounds like you think he might hate you but he hasn’t mentioned the incidents (except when dealing with them/you apologising for them)?

      I think you might be reading too much into this, I’m a senior person and have had to come in to resolve similar issues where people could have asked a couple more questions to start with and done it right instead of making assumptions that led them astray and while in the moment it’s annoying and frustrating I’ve never held a grudge about it.

      The person involved being more focused on asking those questions and me not having to step in to resolve issues as a result is really all I’d want from the situation and it sounds like you are doing that. Now I’d probably be a bit more mentoring than he is being and actually say things like “I’m glad you asked that because it doesn’t work as you might expect.” and even have a chat after a few projects have gone well to call out that I’m appreciating that you are reaching out more but just because this guy is senior doesn’t mean he is any good at mentoring (in fact his actions to date make it sound like he is terrible at mentoring he should have been suggesting how to avoid these issues in future when they occurred not left it to you to work it out as well as providing appropriate feedback and encouragement when you are on the right path).

      1. Repair Trust*

        I definitely may be reading too much into this, but this role has offered me very little in the way of constructive feedback, so I am left to work off of what I feel/guess people may have issues with. I am the most junior person on my team by far and to be honest, I don’t think they were really equipped to handle a true junior employee. It sucks and is confusing. Most people I talk to say I’m doing well but don’t get into specifics, so I don’t feel that way, you know?

  52. peachie*

    Anyone else dealing with a member of their household going back to work soon with many stay-at-home orders being lifted?

    My partner works in a small clothing shop which is reopening next week. They’re a decent company and have released guidance about new safety policies, but it will still be a major change to our collective risk level. I’m extremely fortunate to have a job that has easily transitioned to WFH and I don’t imagine I’ll be back in the office for quite a while, so we’ve been isolated since March apart from a few scattered errands and occasional walks outside our apartment.

    Neither of us are super high risk, but he does have asthma (and anyhow, not being high risk is no guarantee that you’ll have an easy time), so this is making both of us anxious. (It also means it will probably be much longer before either of us can see our families again.)

    I’m lucky to make enough that I could cover our expenses for a while and have told him that he should quit if he’s not comfortable or if his work environment ends up being worse than expected. But, although he’s VERY stressed and anxious about going back, he doesn’t plan to quit, not least because quitting means no unemployment. He had a tough time finding a job when we first moved here and doesn’t want to end up indefinitely unemployed again, and I understand that.

    The chances of him getting another job — specifically one that would be WFH — are quite low right now. He has a Masters in humanities/arts and, outside retail, has primarily worked in arts education, though he has enough administrative experience/knowledge that I think he’d do well in an admin-type role. But, I mean, how do you do that? Especially now? The biggest employer in our small city is a hospital, and while they are still hiring, most of the ‘behind-the-scenes’ jobs that could be done remotely are for technical roles that aren’t in his field. The types of jobs at the second largest employer (mine) are more aligned with his background, but they’re on a hiring freeze until July 2021.

    I’m mostly just venting my anxieties, but I would like to hear (a) how others are dealing with this (whether you’re the one going back out into the world or the one staying at home); and (b) if anyone has had any success in getting a WFH role while in lockdown, particularly one that doesn’t demand a high-level/technical background.

    1. Lisa*

      I live with three young adults, none with health risks. I have no serious risk conditions but I’m a generation older and have a few borderline concerns. I was already mostly WFH. Two of the kids have continued working outside the home this whole time, while one is completely furloughed but will probably be back at work in June.

      I’ve dealt with it by accepting it as the situation we are in and looking at how to mitigate risks. I look at how our state and county are doing on cases, and how people in general are doing on distancing, masking, etc. I’ve stepped up household hygiene but not obsessively to the point that it becomes a new anxiety.

      A lot varies by industry, region and employer, or even project. For example, one kid works construction and he is pretty safe. His employer recognizes the difference between a commercial project where a few workers can spread out vs. tight quarters in an occupied home remodel. Everyone has their own truck, they can shop at hardware stores and lumber yards instead of more crowded big box stores, and they are breaking their heavy handshaking habit.

      For the other two, in restaurant and personal care, it’s a lot more risky. So there the focus is on masks and hygiene, avoiding public transit, washing up on arriving home. For instance my food service kid found a mask design that a friend is making that is super comfortable and cute so she can happily wear it for a full shift.

      And we also don’t just shrug and say “well, we are vectored now!” We minimize errands, mask in public and do all the sensible things the rest of the time.

      It’s not a perfect solution but it helps both the actual risk and the mental stress to be doing what CAN be done. I hope this is somewhat helpful.

      1. Natalie*

        This is how I’m approaching it as well. I’m on maternity leave but my husband is back at work and he is a laborer, so no WFH. We’ve talked about the steps his employer has taken and any additional things he’s decided to do beyond that. For my part I’m trying to strike the same balance you describe, taking sensible precautions but avoiding going overboard into compulsive behavior.

  53. Ray ray*

    Feeling a little stressed about job hunting. I was laid off right before everything shut down, and my layoff was not virus related. I’m finding that fewer jobs are being posted and I’m barely finding even just a handful to apply to each week. I had an interview last Friday and got a call this week that they were hiring someone else BUT he wanted to pass me onto another department that was hiring for a different position. I thanked humans have the okay,but I haven’t heard from them yet. I had another company indicate interest a few weeks back but then they went on a hiring freeze. Would it be a bad idea to email that recruiter again just to see if the job might open up again? I hope I figure something out. I’m okay financially with the UI and CARES money but I’m also bored and feeling super uncertain about the future

    1. Ray ray*

      Another thought I forgot to add, but I feel like most postings I’m seeing are just to collect resumes and research who is applying- not to actually hire. It’s obvious when jobs I know would be competitive have been up for a month or longer, but get reposted every now and then as “new”. I absolutely know based on the job title/description and how few openings there are for them compared to number of qualified people wanting work in that field.

      1. Fikly*

        I would be careful about assuming you know what’s behind the reposting – your stress and anxiety are going to lie to you.

        1. Ray ray*

          That’s a fair point, it just seems suspect when these Marketing Manager type roles can’t seem to be filled and the job gets reposted while the old one is still up too (I search on LinkedIn and Indeed and other sites too). Perhaps they’re just not getting the super experienced rockstar they want.

    2. Ray ray*

      Holy cow typo, when the interviewer called to see if he could pass my info on to someone else, I thanked him and gave the okay. I just saw that it said I thanked humans. *sigh*

      1. Hotdog not dog*

        I’m in the same boat. I’ve had 2 offers rescinded due to Covid, and am finding it challenging to get interviews for ” real ” jobs. It seems like a lot of companies are just trying to get a feel for what kind of candidates are out there. I’m hoping at least a few of those will become viable opportunities at some point.

        1. Ray ray*

          Oh man! That sounds super discouraging. I’m hopeful things might get better this summer, so long as we don’t have a spike in cases soon. I hope you and I both find new jobs soon.

          1. Cassidy*

            Wishing you the best of luck, Ray ray and Hotdog not dog.

            It’ll work out fine, and I don’t mean that cavalierly. You’ll both find something, at least enough to carry you through until there’s a vaccine, at which point there will be plenty for you to choose from. Virtual hugs…

  54. Half-Caf Latte*

    Hi All!

    First and foremost, thanks to all who had kind words on my post two weeks ago. It really was helpful to hear that I’m basically stuck and expected to do the impossible, although I was really hoping when I posted that I’d get a solution I hadn’t thought of.

    My boss sucks and isn’t going to change, but I have recently heard that we’re not hosting any in person events through the summer, so theoretically there should be no need to go onsite until then, although she won’t commit to that. Intellectually I know I should just take each day as it comes and not burn any bridges until I get to them, but in practice for a planner it is so so so hard! I’ve always been strong at strategic thinking and planning so when I ask questions about things I think are obvious and no one has thought of them yet it’s really frustrating.

    I’m planning to stay put in my job for the time being – as rough as this is, the pay and other intangibles are preferable to other options, at least for now. Many other roles in my field would have more on-site requirements.
    I know some folks felt like my spouse should be the one to take a hit for a bit by assuming childcare duties, and I hope this doesn’t come across as defensive, but him stepping back would be permanently damaging to his career, and he (and I) genuinely value the oath to do no harm to patients. Sure, there are others who could fill in, but he possesses the strongest skill set and knowledge base, and really is making a difference in the quality of care for patients and safety for staff.

  55. CupcakeCounter*

    So I was laid off of my new job of 4 months in Tuesday. It was a position elimination so no chance of call back. I was pretty shocked as my boss spent the bulk of March and April telling me I was doing a great job and my position had been classified as a priority for the organization. Then 2 of the higher ups in the area I support took the voluntary separation and the project I was working on was eliminated which made my position unnecessary. I get it but am still pretty salty about it since I was just started to get comfortable in the position and hit a major deliverable the previous Friday.
    Well I’m one of the lucky ones and have an interview next week via Zoom. I would normally wear a suit (finance) so should I still wear the full suit or can I do suit-lite? Suit jackets don’t fit me well at all so could I wear a nice top/shell and one of those open blazers made of the stretch material that fit me way better? It’s navy so a good conservative color and when sitting should look very polished but less so than my traditional black and gray business suit.
    Any other Zoom interview tips?

    1. Hotdog not dog*

      I’ve been dressing the same for zoom interviews as I would for in person, except I haven’t bothered with shoes! Pants, yes- just in case the camera accidentally moves!

    2. Ray ray*

      I agree with hotdog to dress the same as you would if you were going in person. Definitely wear pants too!

    3. hermit crab*

      The first interview for my current job (a couple years ago) was via video and I definitely did the “suit lite” approach. I think if a non-suit blazer makes you feel more confident, that’s great, and over video I doubt anyone is going to be zooming in to check whether your pants exactly match your jacket.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        I only have 1 quality suit that fits decently so I was hoping to go suit lite for the video interview in case there is eventually an in-person.

        And I was always going to wear pants…probably not suit pants but black or navy pants.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          How about a light cardigan style sweater instead of the suit jacket?

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            This has come up recently on here, I’d suggest searching back. I can’t remember exactly when though.

    4. SweetestCin*

      I’d recommend a dry-run to make sure you’ve got the angle on the camera correct, nothing funky in the background, no glare from the lights, etc. I’ve discovered that some of those things change daily due to the time of day, weather, etc.

      1. A Frayed Knot*

        And please Please PLEASE make sure the camera is at your eye level. Put some books under your laptop to bring it up to a reasonable level. I hate looking up people’s nostrils!!! And good luck.

  56. TinaBelcher*

    I saw a post on LinkedIn where someone suggested that instead of providing your salary expectations you should ask the budget for the position. Is this something anyone has ever tried?

    1. A*

      Yes – this is my primary tactic, although I phrase it as ‘what is the expected salary range’. I might try this wording next time, it leaves less room for interpretation! There have a been a few times where they’ve bounced it back to me along the lines of ‘well, what are you looking for’? and I’ve had to push back with ‘I’m interested in hearing what range is being considered for this position’. It feels a little awkward, but it works. And often they will mention something higher than I would have said.

      This is sooooooo much easier to do now that employers can’t ask about your previous/current salary.

    2. Ems*

      Yes, I did this at a recent interview. The interviewer asked about my salary expectations, and I asked whether they had a range in mind (I prefaced this by saying that I had recently moved to the country and this was different sector to one I’d worked in in the past, although I’d also done my own research – in hindsight I don’t think it was necessary for me to say this).

      The interviewer replied with a $20k range (think $80k-100k), which may not have been super useful for a lot of people, but was actually really helpful for me as it was on the high side of what I was expecting – if I’d been forced to name a number first I would have said something at the low end of the range she gave. After she revealed the range I said it was in line with my expectations and we moved on.

      (I didn’t get offered the job, but I’m almost certain that was for unrelated reasons!)

    3. Diluted Tortoiseshell*

      What is the expected range for the position? [Silence]

      Silence is your tool. They will say something. I they bounce it back to you bounce it back to them with no qualifiers and then say nothing. It works so well.

      1. Raea*

        YES. Like in so many areas of life, the ability to master the art of accepting – and enduring unflinchingly – ;awkward’ silences is profoundly powerful. Job interviews, and when I ought my car outright are the two examples that come to mind – but it pays off in so many ways!!

    4. salary question*

      One time I asked and got caught in an undesirable loop with a recruiter. She actually said, “we’re not at that point in the conversation yet”. Yet, it was fine to push for my number? We somehow managed to get past it, but needless to say, I didn’t make it past the phone screen.

      I would’ve thought it was in my delivery, but most of the time, recruiters understand that I actually do need this info. My field has a pretty wide range, and it saves everyone a lot of time and trouble if we can have that conversation up front.

      Or, just post the salary and save everyone the time and trouble.

  57. Delta Delta*

    Just a bit of a rant. This week I had to work with lots of people to assemble a significant written project. I created a really comprehensive draft, and then the nitpicking started. The report was due yesterday. I had hoped to get it completed midday so it could be submitted. A flurry of last minute corrections were made (some of which were really constructive). The report was done and submitted. An hour later, I got a call from someone who had been silent on the matter all day and wanted to make changes. I diplomatically told her no. She started talking about how this, that, and the other were all really significant. But really, she had been involved in the process for 3 weeks, she knew the deadline, and she knew the report had been submitted.

    Also, if you’re working on a committee document, maybe designate ahead of time who will be the official editor. If you’ve got 12 people with their fingers on the edit button, make clear that one person is doing it. Do we all need to go completely insane because one person likes the Oxford common and one person doesn’t?

    1. International Klein Blue*

      I feel for you.

      It may or may not work in your corporate culture, but I’ve had some success with designating individuals as “crayon holders”: “Okay, Martha has the Crayon, when she finishes her changes she’ll pass it on to Jim …”

      I have very little tolerance for people who don’t play well with others, ignore the crayon, and send a bunch of changes in the day it’s due. If you’ve been very clear with everyone about the crayon, the due date, etc, and someone still does this? If possible, I’ve told them “sorry, it’s too late” (and leave their name off the document). Again, corporate culture will determine if you can get away with this. I try very hard to never complain to management about a coworker – but this kind of thing is the rare exception.

    2. Lisa*

      An internal style guide can really help as well, with the nitpicking. That can just mean picking an established guide, saying “we use AP style” and then adding a company-specific addendum for dealing with industry jargon and trademarks, e.g. “teapot” is lowercase but “Acme Teapots” is capitalized and it is Acme not ACME.

      Another tip I learned from a pro copywriter years ago when I was PMing a huge content project with a ton of stakeholders: a lot of people are unclear on what is appropriate editing at different stages. So your group might benefit from more structure. Eg, there will be three rounds of review. Draft one will focus on theme and structure, draft two on accuracy, draft three on polish. Designate an owner who consolidated all feedback and let people know that any premature edits will be rejected so do not waste time on punctuation and spelling in draft one. And consider having a couple people who are skilled in copyediting do the final pass on their own, with the style guide to back them up. Send everyone an FYI with a nearly-final copy when it goes in for final editing letting them know that it is just going through quality control before submission and any critical issues must be raised no later than noon on Thursday or there will be no further opportunity for revisions. And hold your ground, short of a stop-the-presses situation (such as legal risk). This is just an example of how a process can work but just something more structured with more advance expectations.

  58. Falcon*

    I’m trying to figure out if my circumstances justify breaking one of the primary rules of resume writing: never include student activities or awards prior to college on your resume. This is a rule I’ve never broken before (aside from when I was a freshman in college and didn’t have anything else to put on my resume). I am flinching at the thought of doing this, so am looking to see if other folks think the specific positions warrant a *one-time* violation of this rule.

    I’m applying for COVID contract tracing positions as an out-of-state applicant (these positions are open to remote applicants, and my state hasn’t posted contact tracing positions yet). Some states like Massachusetts specify that non-residents should have familiarity with the state. Unfortunately my family never had much money to travel when I was growing up, and as an adult I never was in a financial position to consider relocating for a job or going on vacations outside of my tri-state region. This makes me think my out-of-state contact tracing application could be headed for the trash bin.

    The only evidence that I have a good knowledge of and memory for geography is that I was a two-time state Geography Bee semi-finalist when I was a teenager (about 15 years ago). This competition went beyond memorizing capitals/borders and involved testing cultural, social, political, environmental, and economic knowledge of the US and the Earth. (Warning: I am not generally comfortable writing this braggadociously, but the following info is provided to contextualize so I can get input on if this justifies breaking a cardinal resume rule). To get to this point, I had to win my school’s geography bee, take a written test/have one of the top 100 scores in the state, and score high enough during the state preliminary round to advance to the semi-finals. I live in one of the most populous states, so with more students to compete against, your odds of making it to the semi-finals twice are quite low. Most of the kids got to the semi-finals because their parents took them around the country and the globe, so they got exposure to other regions firsthand through tours and museums. I was able to compete with them because I spent hours as a teenager researching the world on a slow dial-up computer and borrowing books from the public library – then quizzing myself on the content. I wanted to prove that I was just as capable as them.

    I’m wondering if it’s worth mentioning on my contact tracing application since it’s the only real way that I could make the case that I can easily memorize minutiae about a region and understand cultural/economic issues as well. I am hoping to demonstrate to the hiring manager that even though I’m an out-of-stater, I am a voracious researcher and will thoroughly prepare myself for serving their state’s citizens. Is including my experience in the Geography Bee (either on my resume and/or my cover letter) a risk worth taking?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      That’s a tricky one. Your HS experience might show aptitude, but it doesn’t show current familiarity, so I lean towards not including it, but on the other hand, I’d evaluate what you really have to lose if you do. I think it might show you’re a little out of touch because you haven’t really retained working knowledge. There were many things I was top-of-class in during high school that I can’t do now. I was in the all-state band, and I seriously can’t read music outside the staff now. But if your odds are zero now, why not?

      1. Falcon*

        That is a very good point, I definitely did not retain most of what I learned in high school! When I watched Jeopardy as an adolescent, I definitely could answer more questions that I can now :) I still do research geography things just for fun (have been doing a lot of that during my furlough), so I would say I still have most of my knowledge in this area although I may not be able to recite the currency of Belarus like I could in high school!

        1. Colette*

          I’d mention that conversationally in your cover letter – maybe something like “I’ve always been interested in geography – I was a geography bee finalist twice in high school – and still do geography research for fun – and so, although I’ve never been to Massachusetts, I have a good understanding of its geography.”

          (Although if I were hiring for that position, I’d be more interested in someone who understood the culture and how to get people to open up and be honest.)

          1. Reba*

            I agree, I don’t think the geography skills are really going to answer what they are asking for, regardless of how long ago it was. I think “familiarity” here is more about having a sense of what Lowell (to extend the Massachusetts example) is *like,* how it differs from Worcester, and essentially showing that you are able to relate to the people there. Not as much about the locations or which are the county seats or whatever.

            2. Avasarala*

              Especially if you can’t pronounce towns like Worcester correctly–instant loss of credibility in MA.

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I think if you include it, it would be more of a cover letter anecdote.

    3. Diluted Tortoiseshell*

      General rules of thumb for awards:
      Nothing from school after your first job.
      Nothing older than 5 years.

      There are exceptions. I’ll never take of the Fulbright Fellowship. Similar if I was a Rhodes Scholar. I also keep my prior to work publications (like an actual published work not the “who’s who” stuff.) listed.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        What are your thoughts on taking off things like the Fulbright if your career didn’t really continue along a high-achieving trajectory? I know a few people like that. Is it better to have people know you peaked early or to have them assume you’ve always had a fairly average career?

    4. RagingADHD*

      I lean toward “no.”

      Familiarity with the state in this context doesn’t mean knowing facts you can research. It means personal familiarity so you can establish good communication and trust across different communities.

      You may be able to know/understand that cultural issues exist, but can you establish rapport with strangers in a highly personal, intrusive, and upsetting situation?

      I don’t think it would give the impression you want.

      1. Falcon*

        I have done behavioral health telephonic intake as a prior position, so I definitely am comfortable developing rapport with people who are going through difficult circumstances. I am now leaning toward leaving out the geography bee piece, and focusing on my background in healthcare settings, since that is much more recent :) Having done some further reading on the contact tracing positions, many states do not allow you to deviate from a basic script, so I am realizing that maybe the geographic knowledge is less consequential than I thought).

  59. curiouskitten*

    Alison mentioned earlier this week that now is not the time to apply for a new job if yours is relatively safe/stable. What signs do we think we should look for that is okay to start searching again if your workplace is stable and has no bees?

    1. Fikly*

      I think she said now is not the time to accept a potentially unstable new job if yours is relatively safe/stable.

      There’s no reason not to apply. Applying does not obligate you to accept.

      1. curiouskitten*

        That is not what I’m asking. I’m asking what signs should we look for to take the risks again.

        1. Ray ray*

          Maybe keep updated on unemployment numbers in your state. If it’s not getting better, I’d probably stay at the stable job. Check LinkedIn and see if others are finding new jobs too. It’s going to be iffy for a while, but once companies lift hiring freezes and unemployment numbers go down, it might be a sign things are turning up.

        2. AnotherAlison*

          Perhaps less than record unemployment numbers? No stimulus plans or special unemployment needs to be in place by the Federal government. States are fully open for business without restriction. Travel is commonplace. Companies that plan to go back to the office have gone back to office work instead of WFH. That’s what I would generally look for, but if something equally stable to what you have falls in your lap, I would not necessarily tell you to wait for the economic recovery to make a change. One thing to consider–the job change premium you might normally expect may be gone right now and for the near future. I changed companies after a multi-year industry downturn many years ago. I moved almost immediately after things were picking up and was one of only a handful of new hires that year at my company. A couple years later, people were getting huge salary bumps to come over from competitors.

        3. MissDisplaced*

          You’d have to look at the economy as a whole: which type of companies NOT laying off and going out of business. If not, who are their customers? Which industries or sectors are hiring and showing indicators of growth. That kind of thing. I don’t know if there is one answer as these things (or signs) can be regional and industry specific, even within the larger US economic pattern.

          There is also a very personal risk factor. Those with other sources of family income and/or not as concerned about the stability of the new job long-term due to personal plans.

        4. Fikly*

          Ok, but your question is based on a flawed premise – that you shouldn’t search if you have a stable job.

          There’s no harm in searching. Searching and applying does not mean accepting.

    2. Colette*

      I think it’s fine to apply now, but you should be choosy about where. Is the place you’re applying stable? Will they continue to have funding whatever way this plays out? (Distribution centers will be busy as everyone ships more; boutique hotels are far riskier). Is the specific role you’re applying for one that is critical to the business?

      But “apply anywhere” will only be back in effect when the unemployment rate is low, and life is somewhat predictable world-wide.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Applying now is fine. But something like taking a less secure job that might be happier than your current stable job? Or quitting without something lined up and looking for work? I think we’re going to be looking at years rather than months before that becomes a reasonable risk.

  60. Ali G*

    We are basically WFH for the foreseeable future, so I am going to the office today to get my standing desk and a few other things. I’m oddly nervous about going in! My boss has been going every day so really there is nothing to worry about, but it feels weird!

  61. Choggy*

    While I’m doing fine working from home, I’m think others I work with are having a harder time. I’m very much an introvert, have no kids, or pets (hubby is an RN and works different days) and am kept very busy with my work. My work is very customer-facing, and I genuinely enjoying assisting them. I try to ask everyone how they are doing before any interaction, whether it be chat, email, phone call, or video teleconference, and trying to reach out more to those I used to see in the office daily but don’t interact with much now. I don’t want to bombard people with additional emails, chats, etc. so wanted ask those of you feeling this way, what would you want your coworkers to do to help you through this time?

    1. DragoCucina*

      One of the deacons at my church thrives on social interaction. My husband is more introverted. My husband says that the days they are both scheduled to serve together (they’ve been live streaming daily Mass) he can see Other Deacon physically starting to suffer. He’s taken to calling him every other day just to say hello. It’s now become his routine: Mondays call extrovert A, Tuesdays call extrovert B, etc.

      I’m an ambivert and with the number of online meetings I’m having it’s not a huge problem. Actually we have an optional weekly group where no work talk is allowed. It’s usually the same people who really need to chat with others.

  62. JustaTech*

    How to explain work from home to long-time small business owners?

    My in-laws own a small, (COVID essential) distribution business. Up until last week their sales and office operations team (2 people) worked from home while the two warehouse guys worked (separately) in the warehouse and the orders guy worked in his office.
    This week they asked (insisted) that the sales folks come back into the office to work. Now, each of these people has their own office, and there are lots of bathrooms (though not enough for everyone to have their own), and the cleaning staff is coming every night. But they each (separately) spoke to my in-laws about not feeling comfortable coming in to the office and asked if they could go back to working from home.

    My in-laws don’t want this. They’ve said they’re not happy with the sale’s team’s performance (but haven’t given the sales team metrics to meet, just “do better”), and they said that one of them should have been at the office because “someone ran a truck into the fence and [Salesguy] should have been there”.

    My spouse and I have tried to explain that 1) that’s what cameras are for and 2) you need to give folks specific feedback if you want them to improve and 3) they are asking their staff to take more risks by coming in.

    I don’t want to say “oh, it’s because they’re old”, because that’s just ageist and doesn’t fix the problem. Does anyone have resources (the more official looking the better) that would help them understand how to evaluate the productivity of their WFH staff? And that WFH isn’t just goofing off?

    For more context, we talk to them regularly and they are consistently surprised that my spouse and I aren’t bored, we are in fact working hard from home. (My MIL in particular has a hard time understanding that, in either of our industries, but especially my spouse who is a manager, there’s no such thing as “done” and he could work 24/7 and still have things to do. Before my MIL retired her work was all task-oriented, and could be “done” at the end of the day.)
    Thanks!

    1. Fikly*

      Some people can be taught.

      Some people don’t want to be taught, and no matter what you say to them, it won’t matter.

      Given their surprise that you are actually working, and not goofing off, has not abated over time, I suspect they fall in the second category.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Honestly, I’d stay out of it. It doesn’t sound like you or your spouse work in the business. It’s not your problem to fix. If they’re venting to you and don’t believe your opinions so far, I’d save my breath. I can see the rabbit trail. . . Dad’s business fails > no income > our problem, etc., but I still think you need to let it go.

      My husband operates a small business and my parents are career employees of large companies and they don’t really understand realities of small business but seem to think their $.02 should be provided. I’m not saying your wrong, but not your monkeys.

      2. JustaTech*

        I wish we could, but my spouse provides all the technical support (no matter how hard he tries to get them to hire a local IT person), so he’s been doing a bunch of stuff to make it possible for the sales team (and my FIL) to work from home.
        I’m not worried about their income, thankfully. They’re well prepared for retirement and were considering selling the business when the whole ‘rona thing started.

        I wish I could just let them vent, but that’s not a skill set I’ve ever learned.

        1. allathian*

          Why do they vent to you? Just go not my monkeys, not my circus. Let your spouse handle his parents. One silver lining of COVID is that you don’t have to engage with your in-laws if you don’t want to and you definigely don’t have to see them in person.
          If your spouse isn’t already, he should start charging his parents for the IT services he provides. If it was a question of helping them keep in touch with friends and family, sure, family members should help each other if they can. Both my husband and I provide IT support for our aging parents. But I wouldn’t help even a family member make a profit on their business for free.
          Your in-laws are allowed to run their business as they see fit. If they get a bunch of salespeople quitting because they don’t want to go back to the office, they’ll have to recruit some new people. You’ve stated your opinion often enough, it’s time to shrug your shoulders and change the subject.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Why don’t you suggest the two employees take turns teleworking? One in week A, the other in week B. Provides more safety for the employees, while also satisfying their perceived need for physical presence.

      1. pancakes*

        Their perceived need for physical presence is nonsensical, though, and even an alternating schedule like this will expose the employees to needless risk. I have a real problem accepting the idea that these business owners should be free to opt out of trying to understand basic facts simply because they afford to pay people to play along.

        1. JustaTech*

          The thing that’s silly about the stated example of why [Salesguy] needs to be in the building (the whole fence thing) is that 3 people *were* in the building (the warehouse guys and the order guy), and no one can see that fence from inside the building anyway!

          Honestly, my in-laws were already pretty negative about these two people’s work before COVID, so they’re not willing to do anything they (my in-laws) perceive as “give them slack”.

          1. Natalie*

            You can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themself into.

            I think you’re viewing this as a problem you can solve, but you really can’t. Oniy your behavior is under your control – husband is not actually mandated to provide IT support and neither of you need to continue to be an audience for their complaints. If you’re going to spend a lot of energy on something, spend it on setting those boundaries. That at least has a chance of working.

    4. Generic Name*

      Two thoughts:

      This really isn’t your problem to solve

      Reasons are for reasonable people

  63. Honey Bunches of Boats*

    I’m miserable in my job — and right now, between employers across the board squeezing their workforces and COVID causing hiring freezes and furloughs, my chances of finding something else are slim to none. I’m going to start applying anyway, just in case. But in the meantime I seem to only have two options: Work every day in a place where I am being set up to fail, or quit to save my sanity and professional reputation but risk never getting hired again due to a gap on my resume.

    By being set up to fail and risking my professional reputation, I mean this: I was promoted into a new role a couple of years ago but due to an unwillingness to backfill positions, I’m constantly having to fill in in my old job (same facility and managers for both the old and new role). I have begged for enough time to do the new job, because we run the risk of having our teapot production facility completely shut down or embarrassed locally this fall if I am not able to get all the documentation caught up. I have explained specifically why it’s so risky to keep pulling me away but it falls on deaf ears every time. And I can tell that come this fall, things will fall apart and I will be blamed for it despite months of pleading to be permitted to do that job. There are also occasional safety/ethics issues that come down from on high and worry me, I don’t want to be part of that and it’s obvious the whole company is OK with it.

    In my opinion there really is no one in the corporate structure to be trusted. My manager is basically a VP, so there’s only one person above him. It feels risky to stay and risky to go. My husband is pressuring me to stay to keep the income, but the thought of being ignored and dismissed until things blow apart in the fall makes me feel nautious. Any advice?

    1. Anon for this one*

      I don’t think the gap on your resume will risk you not being hired again. I think the question is can you afford to be unemployed without unemployment for an extended (think at least a couple years) period until the economy recovers? If the answer is no, then I’d try and stick it out as long as possible. If the answer is yes, then I’d quit.

    2. Fikly*

      Millions upon millions of people will have gaps on their resumes dating to now. It’s not going to be a problem.

      1. Honey Bunches of Boats*

        I wondered about this, too. I thought maybe given the timing, having a gap right now wouldn’t look nearly as unusual or scary as it normally would. On the flip side, everyone and her brother will be competing for probably even fewer positions as things reopen… right?

        1. Fikly*

          Yeah, but that doesn’t mean your gap will look worse than anyone else’s!

          What that means is, employers are going to be asking, what did you do while you were unemployed to help keep your skills fresh or build new ones? That’s how you stand out from the crowd. Which is true pretty much all the time, frankly.

          Gaps sound super scary. But I have yet to actually hear first hand of someone who had a gap, did things to become relevant to get hired in the current job market, and was unable to be hired due to gap. It’s all second hand horror stories. People who never get hired again don’t get hired because they don’t stay with the times – like people who drop out of the work force to take care of family for a decade, and then expect to get hired based on the skills they had a decade ago.

    3. Door Guy*

      I’d say make sure you have those times you begged for time or assistance documented in a paper trail, so you can show them that, hey, I identified this as a problem months ago and told you about it, and you chose to ignore me.

      My wife had a bit of that at her last job; she had some concerns on security, brought it up to her boss who told her “I don’t understand why you just can’t do your job.” Nothing written down, all verbal.

      Sure enough, about a month later they had an incident that could have been prevented if those security concerns were addressed, but she was let go anyways. (She did make sure that the state investigator into the incident knew she had told her boss about her concerns prior to the incident). She did hear through the grapevine that old job was instituting new policies, but then Covid happened and the location shut down.

      1. Honey Bunches of Boats*

        I have — in fact I have like a year and a half’s worth of schedules showing how I was almost never scheduled for my actual job. I know there have been times in addition to verbally that I’ve expressed concerns about scheduling or other wacky schemes via email — those just go unanswered. But TBH I don’t know who to even show them to! It feels like the whole company is OK with everything teetering on the brink of insanity as long as a nickel is saved here or there.

        1. Door Guy*

          Sometimes you just have to save them for when it all does topple down and they are looking at you for answers. “Why did this happen?” “Here is a giant list of every time I told you this would happen.”

    4. new kid*

      “My husband is pressuring me to stay to keep the income”

      I think you need to figure this part out first, unfortunately, because it has the biggest impact on what your (practical) choices really are. Is your husband’s job relatively safe/stable at the moment? Do you actually need the second income or will it just be tight? If you do need it, are you willing to dip into savings or take an underemployment type of part-time role as needed to ensure some form of income is still coming in?

      If you are actually in a place financially to be able to quit, then rest can mostly be handwaved (ie. many people will have gaps, you can easily spin your decision/the timing in an interview, etc). I wish I could say screw the rest and put your mental health first (trust me, I’ve been there) but I think you run the risk of actually putting yourself in a worse financial AND mental state if you don’t think it through all the way.

      1. Honey Bunches of Boats*

        His job is pretty stable (union job) and the pay and benefits are good. Our health insurance is through him. He makes more than I do. But what I bring in isn’t nothing. It would probably be doable for a while, and do have a little savings. And I’d be willing to take something else if I had to, as long as it wasn’t as toxic as what I would be leaving behind. But I can’t imagine that leaving a job where I was for 15 years, taking my degrees and working at something minimum-wage wouldn’t be a heap of red flags. I just wish there is a way to communicate to future hiring managers — “I am a hard worker, I’m reasonable, I tried very hard to stay where I was, but this is not a place where you can work if you have a conscience and a genuine work ethic.” or, “I left because I wanted to do the job correctly and safely, and they wanted to cut corners and blame me when the cut corners had consequences.”

        1. new kid*

          I think communicating why you left to employers is the easiest part of all of this. If you were to take a minimum wage job in the meantime it wouldn’t be a red flag you would just leave it off your resume and explain the gap with whatever your preferred spin is (personally I’d go with a vague health-related given the timing and tell yourself it’s no one’s business that it was your mental health – eg. “I took some time off for health issues that are now resolved thankfully!”)

          I think you’re getting caught up in the idea that you won’t be able to get another job if you leave because of the optics, but that’s likely not the case especially given the timing. Lots of people are going to have gaps after this year, no one will even blink an eye.

          (Not to say finding a job may not still be difficult and maybe even more so in this new market, but it won’t be because of the optics of you leaving and/or having a gap.)

    5. International Klein Blue*

      I agree with the others: a lot of people will show a “COVID gap” on their resume from this year. I don’t think it will be held against you.

      But I have to ask: what are the actual possible consequences of you being pushed into failure at your current job? If it’s something like jail or actual harm to people, yeah, I’d get out of there. But if it’s more like you’re unhappy and you might get fired? I totally get hating one’s job. But maybe if you put some time into keeping records and putting together a case for how you’ve been mismanaged, maybe that will help make the job tolerable until / if you get fired?
      Also, “I tried best I could to fix the problems” plays a little better than “they were driving me crazy and I quit”.

      All that said, if your job is genuinely causing you (say) health issues, then yeah, get outta there. Otherwise, maybe just try not to take it so seriously and ride that roller coaster to the end.

      1. Honey Bunches of Boats*

        Anything ranging from being fired/written up for a major failure of an upcoming test, to the closing of our facility because of it, which would affect people in the community who we support. Or being expected to work around the clock for a couple of weeks right at the end, trying desperately to do several months’ worth of backlogged work at the last minute. There are everyday things that are annoying, no question… but that test hanging out there in the fall feels awfully ominous to me. I just don’t see how I don’t get thrown under a gigantic bus.

        1. Academic Librarian*

          Make sure to keep copies of your evidence some place off the work property, like on your home computer. If you are fired as you fear, you might be escorted off the property without the ability to grab your notes/emails/etc.

  64. Jr. Woodworker*

    Hi all! About a year an a half ago I asked for advice because I was having trouble with sexist interviewers, and it was very helpful (thank you again), so I’m reaching out to the AAM commentariat again :) Basically, I’m a junior-level female cabinetmaker (1.5 yrs in a shop), and I’m looking for some tips for reaching out/connecting with other women in my field.

    I have some ideas for this, but want to ask my fellow women in the trades (or in heavily male-dominated environments): How do I make this happen in a way that’s not weird? And if you’ve connected with other women/slowly built a community–got any tips? Or is anyone else trying the same sort of thing? I’d love to hear!

    Finally, if you’re a senior-level woman in a male-dominated field, and a younger woman in the same field reached out to you for, say, an informational interview or something, how would you feel? I worry that this is offensive in some way or that they probably get a lot of similar requests.

    1. Policy Wonk*

      I am very open to younger women in my field, as I wish I had had someone to talk to. When they reach out to me, I will generally try to meet them for lunch to put them at ease, make it feel less like a meeting. But I know other senior women in my field who are not so open to this. Everyone is different. I’d recommend reaching out, offering to buy them coffee or something for a chance to seek advice on careers in this male-dominated field. (Expect to pay as you are inviting. That;s how it works. However, don’t be surprised or upset if she pays. It can go either way.)

      1. Jr. Woodworker*

        Oh, thanks! :) Yeah I didn’t want to assume that everyone would be open to this, but it’s good to hear that some, like you, would be open to this. (And for some reason I hadn’t even thought of inviting them for coffee, but I like that idea.) Thank you for the advice!

    2. Generic Name*

      I’d search for professional orgs aimed at women. In my city there’s a Women in Construction group, for example. I’m not sure if it’s a national org or not.

  65. Anon for this one*

    Does anyone who have direct reports that seem to have checked out due to WFH?

    I’m trying to provide a lot of flexibility and latitude, but I have a direct report who seems to have checked out and is coming up with a lot of excuses. Everyone else on my team has been great and has adjusted to the increase in conference calls and our new normal of all working remotely. We are down a team member, and I’ve picked up a lot o that person’s extra work and what I can’t do we’ve tried to reassign across the entire team so it’s not primarily sitting on person’s shoulders (other than mine). So I don’t think it’s a work load issue. This direct report has no children or elderly relatives that they are caring for, or other mitigating circumstances that I am aware of that would result in being quite so checked out. I’ve also asked this person if they are doing okay and if they need help with anything.

    But, more and and more it feels like this report is simply taking advantage of the fact that they can work remotely. They are not getting their work done in a timely manner (and I don’t care when the work gets done, as long as it gets done), and it’s starting cause people from outside of our department issues. I’m at a loss about what to do next. This is the first time I’ve run into a performance issue, and I’m struggling with how to address the issue with being sensitive that everyone needs some extra grace right now.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Have you specifically let them know that you’ve noticed their work is not up to par? If not, I’d start there. I think you can be “that blunt” while also being kind/understanding that things are weird right now

      I would tie it into a “is everything okay?” conversation… assuming they don’t have any new details for you, let them know you that while you don’t expect things to be the same as they were in the office, you do need to see an improvement, and they should let you know if there’s anything you can help with for that to happen.

    2. Fikly*

      Have they checked out due to WFH, or have they checked out due to the many things going on right now, and it’s harder for you to deal with because everyone is WFH?

      That all of your other reports are coping and managing to be productive doesn’t mean that this person is able to cope and be productive. That this is the first time you’ve run into a performance issue is strongly indicative that it’s not someone just taking advantage of WFH – that’s not in character.

      1. Anon for this one*

        It’s definitely harder to deal with because we are WFH. And to be honest, what I’m experiencing now is an exaggerated version of what I’ve experienced in the past with this employee. This pattern existed before we all started working remotely, but it wasn’t nearly as pronounced as it is now. For example, I’d still get the excuses and dragging heels on some tasks, but the deadlines were still met. Basically, I think there was a pattern before all this started. The pattern was irritating and annoying, but manageable before WFH, but it’s morphed into highly frustrating and not manageable. If that makes sense?

        1. Fikly*

          Ah, that’s a different story!

          I had misunderstood, since you had written that this was the first time you had run into a performance issue.

          Have you had a conversation with them (over video preferably) about the larger pattern going on right now, rather than any specific task? I’d start with calling out that this is a problem, and this is what needs to happen, and then, depending on how you work, either you have plan that they agree to, or they come up with plan that you agree to, or combination.

          Then it’s about holding them accountable.

    3. Anon for this one*

      I should clarify, that this is the first time I’ve run into a performance issue during COVID-19 and everyone working remotely.

    4. Mediamaven*

      We’ve had some varying degrees of that and we literally tried everything. While people need some extra grace right now, lack of performance from one negatively affects everyone. For us, it was impacting performance with clients and being under threat of losing business. If we lose business, people have to lose jobs. It’s that simple. It was negatively affecting the morale of peers. Destroys trust in letting teams work from home. All kinds of bad things.

      I would set measurable goals and be very direct about expectations. For one employee, we had many, many painful conversations until we finally said, you have one week to improve or you will be terminated. Shockingly, she finally started to improve! For another, we did terminate her and in one week, everything turned around for the better and we were able to elevate more junior staff into more of a leadership position which created a lot of good will. Our team understood and no one was upset.

      This mentality that everything goes and you have to turn a blind eye to everything right now is simply not correct. Your obligation is to do the best thing for all of your employees, your clients, customers, your business etc…You’ll emerge healthier in the long run, more people will keep jobs, people will be in a better head space. The effects from this pandemic aren’t going away in two weeks. It’s not a let’s ride it out for a little longer then we’ll get back. This require long term tough decisions.

      1. Anon for this one*

        I think part of the issue is that right now even though this person is performing sub-optimally, I really can’t do without another staff member. And if we take steps to fire this person, I won’t be allowed to hire a replacement. I’m concerned about losing the position.

        But, I agree that we can’t turn a blind eye to everything. And I find it particularly frustrating right now, as I have members of my team that do have a lot of other stressors (young children at home, trying to home school, dealing with aging relatives, mental health issues) who’s performance is significantly better. I do want to make sure that i’m being understanding, and I’ve told my team, that aside from the required conference calls that our division director is demanding, that I don’t care when they work.

    5. FreshPrincess*

      I just want to push back on this sentiment: “This direct report has no children or elderly relatives that they are caring for, or other mitigating circumstances that I am aware of that would result in being quite so checked out.”

      Being childless/single does not mean the person is or should be less stressed than people with children. The mental/emotional exhaustion of everything going on right now can weigh heavily on everyone. Plus, if this person does not have a spouse/partner, having to worry about being the only one who can support them financially if something happens is a heavy burden.

      And since you said these performance issues somewhat predate the pandemic, one thing to consider: This person may have mental health issues (depression/anxiety) that influenced those performance issues before and are not aggravated under these circumstances.

      All that said: You should be clear with this person about the effects of their performance and set guidelines for when improvements to be made. Maybe saying something like, “What can I do to help you reach X goal?” would push them to make changes.

  66. Lemon Peel*

    AAM Community, I need a gut check here. My boss has been pretty cavalier about COVID since it began. The work that we do is healthcare-adjacent, and we have been seeing our core clients (a very small group) in the office since early March. Because of the nature of the work that we do, my boss has been pretty resistant to mask wearing in the office, thinking that it will impede the efficacy of the work that we do. The staff has pushed back on this and have managed to get everyone wearing masks in all common areas, and masks are only off while staff is one-on-one with our core clients in their closed-door offices.

    Well, yesterday we got a call from the Dept of Public Health. I don’t know who called them (though I don’t disagree with whoever did) and they informed us that we must wear masks at all times in the building. My boss has assured the Dept of Public Health that we will follow this directive, but with the staff has been noncommittal, as has been her pattern. She has said that even in closed offices one-on-one with our core clients, our staff should be wearing masks, but there is no formal policy in place. Immediately following this call, my boss told me that if an official from the Dept of Public Health comes by (which she thinks is unlikely), that I am to direct that official to her to distract and make sure that all of the staff and our core clients are wearing masks.

    Am I right to feel kind of skeezy about this directive? I feel as if I’m being asked to lie to a public official, one who is looking out for everyone’s health. How would you all respond to this? I was job searching before this, but have put my job search on hold because I don’t want to give up stable employment right now.

    1. Fikly*

      You feel like you’re being asked to lie because you are being asked to lie.

      I’d report this right to the department of public health.

      1. Lemon Peel*

        Thank you, I appreciate the response. I had considered calling the health department, but wasn’t sure if it was an overreaction or not. Sounds like it’s not.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I agree with Fikly.

          However, I would brace yourself, if there’s any chance it’s only you the boss spoke to and she’s trying to smoke out the whistleblower. Clearly her moral compass isn’t set quite right, so she might think it completely reasonable to punish whoever informed on her.

          1. Lemon Peel*

            Good to know! I don’t think my boss is trying to smoke out the whistleblower, because we share the building with another organization and there has been some tension over how to handle COVID safety protocols between the two organizations. I actually would not be surprised to learn that one of them had called the Dept of Health, and am pretty sure this is what my boss suspects. Regardless, I’m sure I’m the only one she asked to do this, as I’m the person who is in charge of the locked door. Do you think that if I explain this to the Dept of Health and request anonymity, that they will keep it confidential?

            1. Fikly*

              I would start by calling them via phone, don’t give their name, and ask what they will do.

              They generally won’t lie about promising anonymity. If it’s something they can’t guarantee, they’ll say something like, we’ll try, but can’t promise. You can decide what to do at that point.

            2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

              They ought to, but if it could only have come from you then it’s kind of pointless.

              I still think it’s important, just might not be the end of the story. I’m sorry you’ve been put in this position.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Yes, this is 100% skeevy.

      You have to make your own choices based on your own persinal situation. But I have on several occasions been put in a position where a boss asked me to do something deceptive, dishonest, or against regulatory requirements.

      Each time, I told the boss, “That puts me in a vey bad position. I can’t promise to do that.”

      I never got fired or disciplined over it. YMMV.

  67. Princess Zelda*

    My job is reopening our physical locations with modified service on Monday, and one of the modifications is that we’re only going to be open for a couple of hours in the morning. Previous to this, I’ve always worked closing — I’m a night owl, so working 12-8 is just better for me. Now, instead of waking up at 10 like I’ve done for years, I need to wake up at 5am every day for the foreseeable future. I am going to be so tired.

    Any tips on how to deal? Last time I worked mornings, I’d just drink a ton of coffee all day long, but that might not be possible for mask reasons.

    1. Anon for this.*

      This happened to my daughter – she just turned her day around. Stayed up all night, did the work shift as if it were the end of her day, went to bed when she got home. It worked for her, made her more productive at 6:00 AM than if she got up at 5:00. Good luck!

    2. Aphrodite*

      I am an early morning person (so not a lot of help there) but one suggestions I have always followed and now seen others recommend is to immediately drink a minimum of two full (8-oz minimum) glasses of plain water upon rising. The reason is that you dehydrate during the night and your body is starved for liquid. Most people satisfy this with coffee. But if you push yourself to drink that much water your body will instantly feel more alert and alive (and maybe without caffeine). Keep it up, a glass an hour for at least the morning, and you may quickly see a difference.

      Good luck!

      1. SweetestCin*

        I was going to recommend that “Tik Tok coffee” because it has a significant caffeine content.

      2. Vermont Green*

        Caffeine tablets have gotten me going for years now. No need to pee on my way to work, no stained teeth, cheaper than coffee, and better for the rain forest.

  68. BWP*

    Already hunting for another job, but my close friends are trying to convince me to stay longer because they’re concerned my resume will make me look like a job hopper. I’ve been at my current company only 6 months but spotting several red flags, including a junior colleague lying about the amount of recorded time spent on projects and inflates the number of hours to appear really busy, which affect the amounts for for future engagements (boss thinks the project takes longer and requires more work than it actually does so he prices contracts higher for later clients based on junior colleague’s work). My boss is confounded as to why my hours are not as high as junior colleagues and accused me of not prioritizing revenue. I explained that I account for my hours very accurately and will not spend time twiddling my thumbs when done just to make the project time line longer. Boss response was to encourage me to “spend more time thinking about projects and instructions, then bill for thinking about the project.” He has expressed significant amounts of favoritism towards junior colleague, and did not reprimand him for the inflated hours once it was discovered he was” exaggerating” them and not recording them accurately. Fast forward to our current predicament with covid. Same boss doesn’t believe people are legitimately doing work from home (projects have lulled because of clients not wanting to spend money right now on anything not essential so everyone’s recorded project time is significantly lower) and has mandated that the office reopen in a week, despite the state still being under quarantine. Boss is trying argue our services are essential. Am I jumping the gun for trying to leave? I have a serious conflict with management’s direction, priority on billing over quality of work, and integrity.

    1. Fikly*

      Job hopping becomes an issue when it’s a pattern. Is this your only short length of time, or have there been several in a row?

      1. BWP*

        I was at my last job less than a year and ended up moving out of the state when I accepted this new job. Prior to that, I was at my company for 2.5 years. Would leaving this job after 6 months still look like a pattern? Should I stay the full year?

        1. Fikly*

          I would say no, given the job that was 2.5 years. If the jobs were one year, one year, then this six months, I’d be more concerned. 2.5 years is a good chunk of time these days. And if asked, you can easily explain switch to this current job as wanting to move out of state for whatever reason (even if the actual reason was to get this job).

    2. tetris replay*

      Boss response was to encourage me to “spend more time thinking about projects and instructions, then bill for thinking about the project.”

      I think it’s worth considering whether he may have a point. I’ve dealt with a lot of young employees and contractors that significantly underestimate the amount of time that they spend on project-adjacent tasks and ideation. If I were billing out their time, I’d be very concerned with making sure the client is actually paying for that time.

      1. BWP*

        Thank you, I appreciate that perspective. I understand that he has a point and don’t disagree that underestimating time can be a significant issue for billing purposes. My main issue is that junior colleague is flat out lying about his time. He bills an extra 1.5 or more hours per project. That may not seem like a big deal to the average person, but when you consider his hourly rate that’s getting billed out for the inaccurate and inflated time, combined with the number of projects he juggles per week, my honest timekeeping does not compare. This also affected my raise, because boss compared our hours and indicated I should strive to reach junior colleague’s hours, which is impossible because I do not believe in padding hours.

    3. Some clever pun*

      As long as you’re prepared to stay in the new job for a while it’s likely not a problem. That means carefully feeling out in any interviews whether the new job would be a good match for you and the stability of the company. If you have a history of jobhopping, that may make it harder to get interviews for this next move, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t apply. If it’s just this one 6 month stint, that is very normal and not a problem imo.

  69. anoninkorea*

    So I’ve posted here before under another handle, but am keeping this anon as I don’t want to disclose my location and details under my regular one. This isn’t a question, more a story for those of you on the other side of the world and a vent in one:

    I currently work in the private cram school industry in Korea. These are private academies students attend after school to learn and improve in different subjects – English, math, test prep, etc. They’re common in East Asia, and a lot of them are not very good, both to teach at and to learn at. Many focus on rote memorization, and because they’re private businesses, treat parents and children as customers. This leads to a lot of issues, especially in terms of doing anything to keep parents on the roster, often to the detriment of exploiting the teachers working there and constantly blaming them or threatening their jobs based on arbitrary complaints. I, thankfully, recently got a job at a wonderful one that teaches English, and has a teaching method and philosophy that I agree with, and the leaders of the school are also reasonable, understanding people.

    Over here in Korea we’ve had a small second wave COVID outbreak the past few weeks because social distancing was scaled back, and (mainly) clubs reopened, and infected people visited them, putting tons of people at risk. The largest location of this was not only the center of a lot of LGBTQ clubs here, but also a district many non-Koreans live in. Unfortunately, people’s fear and desire to scapegoat someone has led to a rise in homophobia (Korea has very slowly been making progress in this area), and xenophobia. The cram schools and parents have gone absolutely bananacrackers. Among the things other teachers have experienced:

    Schools demanding any non-Korean working for them get tested, regardless of if they were in the area, or even the city itself, or not; Having teachers stay home, regardless of if they were in the area or not; demanding non-Korean teachers sign documents that hold them responsible for school closures if they ever get infected, in any away, with COVID, some even trying to state teachers will be responsible for paying the school for “damages”; One teacher in a public school (usually seen as less risky and better employment than cram schools, but it depends) just had a document left on their desk with no note or explanation, demanding he list every place he had been to since April 30th, as well as anyone he met and their nationality; threats of immediate firings and disciplinary action for just having been in these areas, not clubbing, just in the vicinity (despite the fact that at that point, everyone was allowed to be outside and in those areas); and at my school, one parent even called to ask the school GPS track our locations to “make sure” none of us were going to hotspot areas.

    I am so thankful to work at a school that absolutely does not entertain these kinds of things, and while asking us to use sound judgement and be cautious and responsible, is otherwise taking the burden of dealing with parents on themselves. The legal advice groups and advocate numbers have been lit up, and the whole thing is a mess. I love living here in so many ways, and I plan to be here for awhile, but if you or anyone you know want to teach abroad in an East Asian country, specifically at a private or cram school, please make sure you do your research on the experience and also the work laws! So many people who work these jobs are young people recently out of college who come in very unprepared, don’t know their rights here, and get bowled over by how things operate, and things can go very, very bad in those cases.

  70. Nacho*

    How do I get somebody to stop asking me such long questions? I’m in quality, so my job is to evaluate 1-2 teapots/agent each week. One agent in particular, whenever I give him less than 100, sends me a full essay about why he thinks he was in the right and shouldn’t have been marked down. And if I respond to him, he sends more of them arguing against whatever explanation I give.

    I’ve already talked to his direct boss about it, but she doesn’t see the problem and just thinks that there are some things you can’t express in 1-2 sentences. I’m fine with people contacting me to ask questions about their score, but this one guy in particular takes up way too much of my time. Should I just ignore his messages? Should I be direct with him about not having the time to respond to his huge freaking essays detailing exactly why his teapot was better than a 98%?

    1. Fikly*

      Is he actually asking a question? Or is he just telling you why he’s right and you’re wrong?

      If he’s not asking a question, I’d ignore it – your job is to evaluate quality, not to convince him you’re right, presumably.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Some people really don’t like getting corrected. Sounds like that might be a factor.

      You mark someone less than 100% and tell them why. They send back a book arguing. You reply something like “glad you’re thinking about this, you should have no problem doing it correctly going forward” (that’s terrible language, but you get the idea).

      It’s not your responsibility to manage his emotions. Be polite, be professional. As long as you are being clear about why they didn’t get 100% up front, then you’re doing your job.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Seconding Fikly.

      I’d say to send him one overarching email about this (maybe looping in your boss or his boss? Open to disagreement about that, thought) saying something like, “In all but the most exceptional circumstances, it’s just not possible for me to re-assess your teapots, so I don’t want you to waste your time writing out your reasoning behind why your assessment should be adjusted. If you have questions about the specific areas where you were evaluated slightly lower, I’m usually happy to answer them so you can make necessary tweaks going forward, but it isn’t going to be possible for me to re-evaluate.” And then talk to his boss again. “Susan, I know I mentioned this to you before, but I think the way I framed it is giving the wrong idea about the issue. This isn’t primarily about the length of the questions (although that is an issue; see attached examples), but the fact that they aren’t questions at all, they’re essay-length campaigns to convince me about all the specific ways I was wrong to give him a 98 on his eval rather than a 100. And this happens every single time his teapots aren’t evaluated at 100. I shudder to think how much time he spends composing these things, especially since they’re not going to make a difference in his evaluations. I’m happy to field actual questions but it isn’t possible for me to do what he wants, which is to change his score.”

    4. A*

      Could you implement a set stagegate process? At my place of employment we have two rounds of feedback for QA reviews (of which there are two handled within the immediate project team), and it helps having a pre-set amount of back and forths. Same approach with contract redlining.

  71. 'nother prof*

    Good but interesting situation this week. I was offered a job that I had pretty much concluded wasn’t coming my way. Made a point of negotiating, got results. In academia, you can negotiate relocation and a few other things on top of salary, but I didn’t. In thinking over why I didn’t, I realized that I’ve been more affected by the less-than-stellar management at my current organization than I’d thought. I’m so used to being pressured to do more and more (without any compensation) that I underestimated my value. It’s too late now, but I think I could have negotiated some additional funds/benefits. That’s a bit disappointing, but I had always hoped to gain the “benefit” of good management with this position. It’s not quantifiable, but that doesn’t make it any less important.

  72. CostAlltheThings*

    Calling all accounting AAMers!

    I’ve always worked in manufacturing but my new job is the first time it’s been a private company. Private companies that are still owed/run by “the family” are WEIRD! On top of that, my boss’s last day was the end of my first week so I’ve been reporting to the CFO. I have a new boss starting in about 2 weeks and I’ve been tasked with finding us a class/webinar that covers converting from tax to GAAP. We’re tax basis all year and then convert to GAAP for audit. New Boss is a CPA so CFO would prefer the class/webinar be CPE but it’s not required. I’ve dug thru the AICPA’s offerings this morning without much luck. I am not a CPA as it’s never been helpful in my former roles. Any recommendations for legit places to look for courses?

    Also, any recommendations for a daily/weekly reading source similar to AAM but accounting topics?

  73. Paperdill*

    I have a cleaner for my home, organized through a franchise. We have had a pretty friendly relationship and they do a good job of things. The couple that own the franchise had a new baby in December and, despite a couple of scheduling hiccoughs shortly after that, we’ve had no prior issues.
    When Covid-19 struck, we decided to pause their services for both their sake and ours (my husband was still having to take public transport to work every day, so could be bringing home bugs), which they, at the time, said they understood and hoped to see us soon.
    Things changed for us this past week and we’re going to be selling our house. As restrictions have eased I messaged (our previous form of communication) the cleaner asking them to commence cleaning for use again. No answer. I sent two more texts of the “Hi! Did you get my text? We’d love for you to come and clean for us again” nature – still no answer.
    I’m wondering how to proceed. I was first thinking she had just missed the messages, but there’s been 3 now. Now I’m wondering if they no longer want our business, in which case I need to get snarky with them and get our house key back…but I am concerned something bad/tragic may have happened to the family during all of this, in which case getting the snarky message is going to be horrible. I thought about calling the head office for the franchise, but I would be sad if I got them in trouble unnecessarily.
    How should I proceed? This kind of people managing is very far from my own professional skill set.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Call the head office. There’s no “getting in trouble” that I can see– you need to reach them to talk about cleaning, that’s all. When your first method of communication doesn’t work, there’s a chance there’s a problem with it for whatever reason, so try your other option.

    3. Me*

      I think you can ask for your key back without being snarky. There’s no way to know what’s going on in these peoples lives. Just ask for your key back. If you don’t get it you will have to determine whether you want to change the locks as theres nothing to stop anyone from making copies of keys you give out anyway.

      Especially now kindness and grace is so needed.

    4. Colette*

      If you’re selling your house, you don’t really need the key back – the buyers can (and should) change the locks.

      Proceed as if they aren’t going to clean for you and make other arrangements.

  74. Door Guy*

    I’ve been having an issue almost since I started working at my location that I have no idea how to deal with. I was brought in as Store Manager for a small company at their newest and most remote location. Previously, one of the owners had been pulling double duty since the location opened and was the manager for both. I was brought in because he wanted to retire. It was always going to be a longer transition period as originally he was still going to be around for another 9 months, and then there were issues with his buyout and it turned into 11 months, and then all the issues with Covid and the other owners ending up quarantined and so he was asked to stay on to help. Unfortunately, with that slow transition, it seemed a lot of people were treating me as “trainee” or “assistant” even after it was handed over last fall.

    My issues started right away with a sales manager who didn’t feel that they NEEDED a full time store manager and has both passively and actively acted against my position. From refusing to share any information without multiple prompts (and NEVER volunteering any), ‘pranking’ my office, to even just refusing to look up from his computer screen when I ask him a question. I’ve offered many olive branches, and it seems like every time we start making a bit of headway, something happens and he gets mad and we go back to square 1. Nothing is ever his fault, it’s always someone else’s even when it’s in black and white in front of him. He refuses any instruction into proper processes, even from the other owners. He should have been out on his butt well before I ever started, but he’s well connected and knows a lot of people in high positions and has gotten us in at a lot of locations, and he’s been playing the balancing game of gets us contracts and makes us money vs too problematic and cut our losses. The owner who just retired was his largest defender and freely states he covered things up because the other owners “only look at the negatives” so we’ll see how this plays out.

    Other big problem is my receptionist. She started shortly after I did, and because I was new too, would ask either the retiring owner or the owner she works under in her other role as accounting clerk. It was fine at first, but she never stopped. Even if I gave her specific instructions, she’d set it aside and say she’ll ask retiring owner, or she’ll email other owner and ask for clarification instead of asking me what I meant. When I brought it up with retiring owner, he brushed it off because “everyone’s so used to bringing things to me because I was the only constant in this office, don’t take it personally”. Also, she will try and talk down to me as though she were the manager and I was the clerk, even going as far as summoning me out of my office and over to her before springing it on me. Anything I do that she thinks “wasn’t right” regardless of how factual that may be, she reports to the other owner, who, thankfully, isn’t on his first rodeo. He may ask me for clarification but I’ve never been reprimanded. I’d be less upset about it if she was accurate in what she was reporting (I’m not perfect and I’ve made mistakes, and owned up to them) but all it takes is one sob story or angry accusation out of a customer and she believes them full stop. We had an issue just last week with an unhappy customer who had already been dealt with, but had to get in the last word and sent in a nasty letter along with her payment, I’d already done everything that needed to be done (or could be done) on my end, including utilizing one of the other managers as a sounding board who agreed with my resolution steps and gave me some advice on what to do moving forward with this customer. But letter came in and instead of telling me, she emails owner instead, who reaches out to me, and agrees with other manager after I explain. Receptionist takes it upon herself to write an apology letter to the customer to say she was sorry for how I handled the situation, and that she had told the owner who had directed me on how to handle it and sorry sorry sorry, signed, receptionist. She casually mentioned it after it was already in the mailbox, THANKFULLY it didn’t get picked up yet, but I had to retrieve it from the mailbox (on owners direction, I reached out to him to see if he had directed her to write one, he hadn’t). I have no idea what will happen with that one, owner asked me to scan the letter down to him and that was the last I’ve heard about it from him.

    This just kind of turned into a venting rant instead of asking for advice, but I’m just frustrated because it is just those 2 and myself in our office the majority of the time, made more complicated because receptionist is engaged to sales manager’s son so it feels like 2 on 1 a lot of times. Our field employees are all pretty good and I don’t have many issues there. I’ve spoken to the other location managers about the issues, but aside from some commiseration, they don’t have much advice beyond just doing my job to my best ability and keeping owners in the loop on any issues.

    1. Colette*

      I think you have 2 problems.

      1. You need to start acting as if you have the authority you should have. That means being clear with your receptionist (I assume you manage her) that she cannot be writing letters to customers or that she needs to bring issues to you, not the other managers,
      2. You need the other managers to back you up on that. That means that when she goes to them, they need to route her back to you.

      If the sales manager reports to you, you also need to be clear with him about what you need in the job and, if he can’t do it, take steps to get rid of him.

      Or you need to accept that this is what the job is and decide whether you want this job,

      1. Door Guy*

        For #1, I do manager her on one facet of her job, and the other facet her direct superior is the owner (who is also company president and CFO). I have had talks with her and she either gets defensive and accuses me of doing it in retaliation for reporting me to the owner, or she follows the instructions for a day or two and reverts. She plays the “He’s my boss, too” card a lot.

        #2 – the other managers are also owners (I’m actually the only non-owner location manager) and she doesn’t go to them at all, only to the one in her chain. I do know that the owner will back up my decisions but he doesn’t send her back to me.

        Officially – sales manager reports to me. Reality – he reported to the owner who retired right up until the day he officially hung up his owner hat, and now acts like he doesn’t have to report to anyone, but any issues that DO come up have basically just ended with me being told to send the information to the owners and then I don’t hear anything else. Retired owner told me when we were discussing it that it’s probably a combination of us getting off on the ‘wrong foot’ as well as SM already being a known issue causer and wanting to make sure there is no ambiguity in his instructions, but that’s only a guess. Sales Manager will argue loudly and vehemently with the veteran owners when it comes to any sort of criticism or direction, he refuses to even entertain the idea that I have any power over him.

        I like my job generally, and for the most part really like the people working with me. If I did leave voluntarily, it would be most likely because of one of them just driving me to the point where I can’t take it any more. The job pays well, has decent benefits and some good perks, and I do enjoy the work when I’m actually doing the work instead of trying to deal with their antics. I’m just getting worn down because it seems to be something new every week.

        1. Colette*

          So you need to sort out with the other managers who has hire/fire authority over these two. If it’s you, assert your authority (up to and including firing if necessary). If it’s not, pass your issues with these two over to whoever it is.

      1. International Klein Blue*

        I concur: Fire both of them.

        There is some possibility that you might end up out of a job. But here’s the thing: your company brought you in as a manager, and so they need to have your back when you make difficult manager decisions.

        If you try to fire them and your company prevents it from happening, I think you need to look for a new job. I know, I know, these are tough times. But your current job situation sounds like hell to me.

  75. Not Certified (Yet)*

    I am applying for a position for which I have many qualifications, but I am also working on a certification that would add an additional qualification (a fairly straightforward study/test – no coursework required). For a variety of reasons, primarily COVID-related, I have not been able to take the test. Would you include this anticipated certification in a cover letter? I was imagining something like: “I am currently pursuing Teapot Design Certification, as I have confronted frequent design issues while working on Teapot Manufacturing. I anticipate sitting for the certification exam later this quarter.”

    Is this too tenuous? I truly don’t believe I will have an issue passing the exam, and it is a worthwhile certification in my field.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Good question, I will be monitoring as I’m in a similar boat, but coursework and fieldwork are required for mine.

      If it were a more rigorous process (i.e. coursework was required) then I would lean towards saying it’s worth mentioning briefly where you are in the process in you cover letter.

      If it’s just a pass/fail test you independently study for, I’m less certain it would be useful, since there isn’t concrete evidence of progress or likelihood you would pass that isn’t evident in your resume.

      1. Not Certified (Yet)*

        Thanks. My main reason for wanting to include it is that it further demonstrates I’m interested in Teapot Design, if that makes sense. I have some sort of Teapot Design-adjacent experience, as well as limited direct experience, but this certification would demonstrate that I am both interested in the field and have knowledge of it.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I have a PE (engineering license) and PMP (project management certification). I don’t actually remember what I have done, but what I would do would be what you’ve said. Sure, there’s a risk they hire you, you take the test, and you don’t pass, but under current circumstances, I would note that I was planning on doing it. For the PMP, you register, get accepted and/or audited, and then have a year, so in that scenario, I may say something like the application for the exam has been accepted and I anticipate taking the exam this year after COVID restrictions are lifted. That would show you’ve met the requirements, versus someone who may not have finished the preparation.

    3. Fikly*

      I did something similar when I was finishing up my degree. I had no reason to think I wouldn’t get it, but you know, had to pass the last semester/finals.

      No one blinked an eye, and the employer that hired me just asked for proof of degree once I had it (there was a delay with the school issuing the actual diploma, insert eye roll).

  76. Virginia Girl*

    I’m thinking about grad school for something in the history field (MA in American/Church/Military) and one of the schools that I am considering is Liberty University. What are some good things/drawbacks to attending? (I’m a conservative Christian so I’m not worried about the religion/politics). Thanks!

    1. Pandas as PD*

      If you mean more generally about the MA i would make sure you have considered what career it prepares you for! I think the options for history MAs who intend to work in history are often slim unless you plan to teach a prep school/fancy private school so you should think carefully what (if any) funding is offered, and what you will do after (including how you might pay of any student loans).

      If you want a more general career (a MA in history should give you pretty strong writing and research skills) can you find evidence that the department you are applying for is placing people in the kind of role you would like? What do graduation rates (and time to graduation) look like? Do alums have the kind of job you would be happy to have? Does the university offer career training/help?

      From the specific Liberty angle it would be worth thinking if you are ok with how they are handling COVID (that may effect your fall semester substantially), and how you think future employers might view the university.

      1. Fikly*

        Seconding the future employers concern. It has a very bad rep to slightly less bad rep depending how not conservative Christian you are. Are you ok limiting your potential jobs that way?

        1. A*

          +10,000

          I don’t want to get piled on, but I cannot stress how important this is. Regardless of whether it is fair, or whether it should be, the fact is it does have a negative reputation in some circles/regions/industries etc. and it is important to take that into account when evaluating long term goals.

        2. Reba*

          Most of my exposure to LU is through articles about how it’s badly run, with shady, self-dealing leadership. Absence of academic freedom and making everybody sign NDA’s is another issue (what are they scared of?).

          Anyway, you would have to overcome that aspect of reputation, but not all people will know that or care about it the way I do! I have to say that it would cause an eyebrow-raise if I saw it on a resume.

          But you can find Christian communities at other universities. There are Christian institutions with much better reputations.

    2. 'nother prof*

      Liberty has a bad rep academically, and a school’s reputation is super important at the grad school (as opposed to baccalaureate) level. The biggest drawback I can see is that having their name on your resume might get you immediately disqualified for a job. Even if that didn’t happen, most people would at least look more skeptically on your qualifications.

      There was an article on the Chronicle of Higher Education awhile back by someone who got their MA at Liberty. The author felt that s/he had learned a fair bit, but said that they’d had to defend their MA at every job interview and that they felt that their beliefs (not being racist, IIRC) and actions in support of those beliefs were undercut by the existence of their degree. The article might be worth a look. I’ve also read a few articles about faculty being fired just because they disagreed with one of the Falwells.

      What are you hoping to do with your MA? American history, military history, and religion are three very different subjects. What do you hope to accomplish after/with the degree? I’ll second (third?) what the other commenters are saying – look at graduate placement. A lot of universities have been encouraging MA degrees because it benefits the university’s finances. If a university is doing that, their completion and placement rates will suck, and their graduates will often work jobs with tenuous connections to the field.

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        This is what I’d be concerned about. People are likely to be skeptical of the quality of the academics and your ability to work with people outside of those circles. But if you intend to try and get a job that is somehow related to your religion it could be beneficial to have gone there. The other big question is whether a history MA will help you in the job market. It can be a great thing to do but it might not help you much if that’s your aim.

    3. Oh Boy*

      Given how divisive LU is, I would recommend looking into a less controversial organization unless that element is what is most important to you. In my industry and line of work, it would be an uphill battle – it would raise the question of why one would choose a school with a poor academic reputation, as well as being inherently controversial for their religious affiliation taken to an extreme. It’s not necessarily about religion – more so the choice to narrow options by choosing to pursue both that AND a non-competitive program.

      Honestly, while I’d like to think I’d give the benefit of the doubt (but am not naive enough to assume I know for certain how I’d act in a situation I haven’t been in) my first thought would be that they were sheltered enough to be both limited academically and in their understanding of how it deviates from the norm (speaking about the cultural experience, not the general aspect of one personal being religious).

      I have zero concerns about what my direct reports religion/spirituality/secular-ness is, and for the most part consider it NOMB – but if it’s influential enough to be the very foundation you choose to build your higher education off of, it does bring some questions to mind.

    4. Ewe Sheep*

      So long as you are planning to only ever work for Christian based organizations that don’t require an academically rigorous program, sure! I honestly don’t mean that in a snarky way, it just is what it is. There are so many non-divisive comparable options, that the choice to attend LU speaks volumes – and only a portion of the population with be singing the same tune.

    5. Misty*

      Okay my main thing with Liberty that I think you should be aware of is that it can have a really bad rep to outside people.

      I have three friends who graduated from there and one of them is currently getting their masters there. Another one of my friends doesn’t live in the area but teaches one online class at Liberty.

      I have heard them discuss how much they hate the fact that people constantly want to talk about Liberty college with them, especially when the president of the college makes unpopular choices. I know they enjoyed their time there but I also know one of them has said he regrets graduating from there a lot. (All three of them are conservative Christians, I am not. None of us live in the area any long, if that matters at all.) I know they did like the classes while they were there though.

    6. AnnieMay*

      Lack of respect from any legitimate academic or employer, participating in a racist homophobic organization, and volunteering to be “educated” at a school too ignorant to treat a pandemic as real seem like some obvious downsides.

  77. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    I’m thinking about applying for a sustainability MBA program and I’m curious about anyone’s thoughts or experiences with finding a job in the sustainability field afterwards (preferably corporate, but open to non-profit work).

    I have worked at my current sustainability non-profit for a bit over five years. On my best days at work, I’m neutral; most days, I feel a suffocating desperation to leave due to culture, my role’s direction, skill stagnation, etc. I have applied to almost 100 positions over two years and I’ve been a finalist for a handful, but none have come through, so I need to do something to move on.

    Help? Insights? Thoughts?

    1. hermit crab*

      Are you thinking more about roles within environmental organizations, or sustainability roles within other types of companies (e.g., in a corporate sustainability office)? Anecdotally (I work in the enviro sector and don’t have an MBA, but a few friends/former coworkers do), it seems like an MBA is much more likely to help with the latter rather than the former.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Thank you@hermit crab.

        Right now, my ideal position is working on impact measurement and reporting frameworks. I built my current organization’s reporting framework, but they only apply to one organization and I’m interested in frameworks that are useful more broadly. The corporate world seems to have the most developed frameworks (e.g. CDP, GRI, THESIS), so that’s why I’m thinking a green MBA could be a good step.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Are there any certifications that you could do instead, or potentially join trade associations to build your network in the field?

          I’m not against the MBA and don’t know enough about this field to say if it helps or not, but the programs just take a long time. The MBA and certifications aren’t mutually exclusive, either.

        2. hermit crab*

          Haha, I see that you actually specified that in your post, whoops. Anyway, yes, I know a couple of people who have gone that route into corporate sustainability! One is now in insurance and one is in consulting, I think. Someone else I know has a similar position at a pharma company, but I think they have a public health degree (MPH) instead of an MBA and I’m not sure if they do as much impact measurement/reporting.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Not sure how close this is to what you are looking for but look at manufacturing companies. There are millions of dollars in tax credits available to them for improving processes and products around economic and environmental sustainability.

  78. Amy*

    I’m going to start a job search since my current legal job is drifting into a secretarial job, and we’ve been told to expect the changes to remain post-Covid. The problem is the lack of a writing sample. I’ve been here for 10 years, and all my work at this job is essentially confidential (government work). I can’t use any of it as a writing sample unless redacted to the point of uselessness. I have prior work, but it’s obviously really old or just samples of training material (which is very simplistic) I’ve put together for this job. Do any other lawyers out there have suggestions on what to use as a writing sample?

    1. KoiFeeder*

      Not a lawyer, but can you make a similar sample to the confidential work, and replace the confidential stuff with obvious false placeholders? “In 2008, Otter Village 503 received an order of 30 vanilla teapots and 14 chocolate teapots” sort of deal.

    2. Babylawyer*

      I had to deal with this when getting my post-clerkship job. Understandably, the judges did not want us to use draft opinions or bench memos as writing samples, as it would provide too much insight into the opinion-drafting process (which clerk drafted the opinion, how much editing the judge actually does, how the analysis changed, etc.). In that situation, I had only been clerking for a year, but in the year my writing had improved substantially. I just used an old sample from law school and included a cover page referencing the fact that I had done a lot of writing since, but wasn’t able to share it.

      My firm ended up giving me a writing prompt after the first round interview that enabled me to produce a sample for them, which was much better writing than my initial sample, and was very much connected to the niche practice area we focus on.

      My thought is that if you’re willing to do the work, you could write something solely for the purpose of a writing sample –like a case comment or analysis of recent legislation, something that a firm would post on its website, and provide it in addition to an older sample, to show your growth as a writer. I would expressly mention in a cover page to the writing sample that you are unable to provide a writing sample from the past however many years, and you have tried to show them your writing ability by providing this older more lengthy sample, and by including a new piece of writing that you developed on your own and was not drafted in connection with your current job.

  79. Mint*

    I’m about to have an interview with a position that’s outside of my field which I’m excited for (I’ve been trying to leave since I have grown to have major ethical concerns with the field and how SOP are) but it’s a one year funded position. Is it ridiculous to even consider switching fields in this time? I just know that me being in my current field has had major impact to my mental health, but these days it’s hard to tell what’s pandemic related bad mental health vs job related.

    1. Fikly*

      It’s not the switching fields part that concerns me, but the funding. Is it grant funded? What type of funding is it? A lot of grants are already having financial issues, so while I wouldn’t worry about this grant, I’d be worried about the grant getting renewed for a second year.

      Is a year in this new field enough to get you a second job? On the other hand, mental health is super important.

      1. Mint*

        I intend to ask once I’m in the interview, since unfortunately I don’t know. The company isn’t exactly a nonprofit, but it isn’t a private corporation either. But also, I just got off a call with a manager who mentioned layoffs are inevitable, so it turns out my job security in my current position isn’t as stable as I thought – we had big layoffs in my division in March before the pandemic hit, so the likelihood of a similar drastic round is unlikely, but since we’re only funded through the end of the year as it stands in this company…maybe I’m looking at a damned if I do, damned if I don’t scenario job security-wise?

        1. Fikly*

          So if job security isn’t going to be better in one job or another, then the other factors would weigh more in your decision, I would think.

          Good luck!

  80. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    Aaaaand my position was eliminated this morning. It wasn’t unexpected, but it still sucks. I’m taking the weekend to pity party and will start working on next steps on Monday. Is there a good “unemployment during COVID” resource? I still have by job until end of June.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Ah bother. I hope your pity party involves a generous helping of your carb of choice, and music only just not too loud.

      Very best wishes.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Same boat here – eliminated Tuesday. Even when you know its coming (or at least understand the reasoning) it really suck! I’d only been there for 4 months and was loving it. My pity party got cut short when a recruiter I’d worked with in the past said she had a position I would be good for. Was hoping for the summer off.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Ack, I’m sorry. My first suggestions are:

      1) AAM’s COVID-19 questions section, which has some resources
      2) Your local employment office place, for unemployment benefits. I know you have a job until the end of June, but it might be good to get a preview of what you’ll need to apply for unemployment benefits.

      Also, I should ask: What types of resources are you looking for?

  81. Person from the Resume*

    HAZARD PAY! I seen a lot of references to X job should get hazard pay, but as a military veteran and just a very process oriented person that baffles me. Are there many companies that have suddenly created a category called hazard pay and started paying their employees this. “Hazard pay” is a thing that exists in the military payroll/HR system always and is only paid when a person meets certain conditions

    It’s not that people’s job are not suddenly more hazardous than normal. They definitely are. It’s just that the hiring agreements don’t mention hazard pay. If a company/organization has not thought of this before there isn’t anything in payroll system for them to click to start paying someone hazard pay. If a company/organization hasn’t thought about it before first thing you need to determine is if the budget can afford it since you weren’t accounting for it before the pandemic and then who get it and when and then altering the payroll system to do it.

    It’s not that it is not deserved, but the idea that if the job is suddenly more dangerous in a way no one thought of before that a big company can just snap their fingers and change the way they pay their people is so odd to me. I mean I guess what they could do is just suddenly give people in dangerous conditions a raise and call it for hazard pay, but it’s hard to walk back across the board pay increases.

    Again not that employees don’t deserve it, but “oh, X should get hazard pay” seems very pie in the sky dreamy to me.

    1. Colette*

      I think in most systems it would be a raise rather than a temporary boost. But ultimately it’s likely being offered because they can’t get enough people to do the job at the original rate of pay, so the company will be pretty motivated to figure out how to get their system to handle it,

    2. Anon Anon*

      To me the argument is really that people signed up for those jobs without knowing that they’d be taking “x,y,z” risk. And companies should have started developing policies almost immediately about hazard pay. Hazard pay to me is no different than any other policy that sits in a policy handbook. It can be changed at will. And, corporations seem to be able to work quickly when it comes to stock buy backs, retention bonuses, etc., so I see no reason why they can move quickly with hazard pay for their front line workers. I know multiple grocery stores, that are now offering hazard pay in the forms of extra bonuses, etc., because they cannot afford to lose workers.

      1. new kid*

        Bingo. I think hazard pay falls into 2 categories: 1) this job (due to location, environment, etc) is more hazardous than other similar positions and so we need to adjust the pay accordingly in order to recruit candidates, or 2) this job is suddenly more hazardous than it was when our employees agreed to the position and so we need to adjust the pay accordingly to account for this new risk. The pandemic squarely falls into bucket 2.

        I think the problem is that there are typically no (comparable) jobs that are NOT as hazardous right now, so employers don’t feel they need to adjust to keep their employees, as they assume their employees don’t have any better options. Corporate greed at its finest.

        Really it should just be a standard pay raise, not anything temporary, since so many of these positions are underpaid to begin with, but I’m not holding my breath. :/

    3. CatsAway*

      HEB (the grocery store chain) is calling it a temporary pay raise, but it’s there because of the currently increased risks of working in a public facing role.
      It doesn’t appear that difficult to do.
      Where I work now has a specific category of leave for COVID-19, and it didn’t require some huge process to create.
      I guess I’m not sure what the point of your comment is? Most jobs in the US have no real contracts or hiring agreements (that is a company could just as easily cut your pay to minimum wage going forward as increase it by $2/hour) so I’m not sure that a company needed to be thinking about hazard pay a year ago to be able to implement it today.

    4. Nacho*

      People get raises all the time, and while it’s not quite as simple as snapping their fingers, it’s not a whole lot more complicated either. Nor does being paid more when your job becomes more dangerous seem “pie in the sky dreamy.”

    5. Fikly*

      I think your confusion is based on the assumption that these companies didn’t have the money to pay their employees more in the first place.

      Most do. They simply don’t because they can get away with it. When they can’t, they have to pay more, and right now, it’s being called hazard pay. Supply and demand.

    6. Natalie*

      the idea […] that a big company can just snap their fingers and change the way they pay their people is so odd to me.

      And yet they can, incredibly easily. Most of these companies have probably implemented it as a shift differential, similar to how some companies pay extra for night shift or weekends. It take a few minutes to set up a pay code and maybe an hour to apply it to the relevant employees.

      Most private employers can be fairly nimble if they want. If you’re primarily accustomed to a regimented, bureaucratic organization that might be rather foreign.

  82. staaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrr*

    Is anyone else so terrified of being laid off soon that they’re overworking themselves or is it just me? Our university told our department to prepare for tiered cuts. Furloughs are going to happen. But the language also indicates that cuts could go deeper and that layoffs may arise. I’m a high performer but my boss sees my position as somewhat expendable (my duties require me to often slow deadlines in order to make sure all i’s are dotted, etc and folks hate me for it). I just have this pit in my stomach that says I’m next if things get much worse and I’m at a loss for what to do.

  83. Aggretsuko*

    Hi all–of course I was too swamped with work to write back during the day last Friday, but I’ll try to answer questions this week:

    “-emotionally detach from work. Do not try to do a good job. Do not try to make people happy or feel happiness from your job. You are there to receive pay and be a robot, and when you leave, you leave the place behind.”

    I totally agree! They own me from 8-5 and that’s it. I won’t do a second of overtime and frankly, I’m out of fucks. They’re getting the best I can manage and that’s it.

    “-find someone in your company you can talk to. Your boss? Boss’s boss? Older/mentor-figure coworker? Friend in another department? HR? Anyone you can connect with and feel like you have an ally.”

    Do have those people!

    “-talk to your boss and lay out that you are burned out and can only do XYZ, unless they want you to prioritize differently, as Alison has suggested before.”

    I have had this conversation. The list was (a) your job first, (b) retiring coworker’s job second, (c) the email avalanche. However, my retiring coworker starts to lose her mind and panic and nag me when I haven’t been able to get to the email avalanche for a day. And everything on emails is a dire-on-fire emergency, so saying “oh well, I guess the emails won’t get done” isn’t acceptable either.

    “-find a therapist or similar mental health support.”

    I have one!

    “job search/quit”

    I’ve been job hunting off and on for years, have had no luck, and now there is a hiring freeze. I’m really not wanted anywhere else and that was before the pandemic. I have no hope of leaving and at this point I’m LUCKY to be employed at all. If I want to stay alive, eat and have a home, I need to stay here. I could keep trying, but I don’t have any even tiny hopes of this happening now. The universe has cock-blocked me at every turn about it.

    “In regards to your management – what have you communicated with them? It sounds like their “be happy” comment caused a huge shut down of information from your side.”

    Yes. As far as I’m concerned, they are no longer entitled to know my feelings, because they do not want to know. I’m pretty sure my boss suspects I am …. not okay… but it’s not something anyone wants to have an open and honest conversation about, because Once I Disclose, I’m afraid of what will happen.

    “I have extreme concerns about the workforce reduction and its impact on my responsibilities. I am already doing the work of 4 individuals and in June it will increase to 6 – the current situation is, of course, already unsustainable for any person for any length of time, so I’m wondering what the path forward is? I understand about the hiring freeze, so obviously tasks will be dropped, Could I get more clarity on what the priorities are?”

    See above on the priorities conversation. Unfortunately, hiring is 100% frozen, in limbo, they cannot get HR to even speak to them. That was yesterday’s meeting. And then they announced huge budget cuts today.

    “For the “be happy” comment, did they just say it the one time”

    Yes, it was in February, then I was out sick, then I came back and got scolded again, then the pandemic hit.

    “if they have any decency, they’ll want to work with you to come up with some kind of mitigation during this time.”

    I agree, but literally they don’t have the ability to do more than they are. The HR situation is utterly out of their control.

    “sick leave?”

    Yes, but it’ll only make it worse on me to not be here any more when I literally have no backup. If I’m out for a week, that means I have two weeks of work to do when I’m back. That’s even worse.

    I looked up going on mental health leave, but I will only receive 2/3 pay while on mental health leave. I can’t afford to do that.

    “What’s the worst that can happen? What’s the worst that MIGHT happen? They can’t really afford to fire you so that’s unlikely”

    I thought this too, but they have marked me as “needs improvement” in the past, which meant that I lost money when pay was increased for everyone–except for me, because I was officially Needs Improvement. So much as I’d like to say go blow, I probably should not.

    “can you ask what metrics are involved in “being happy”? Make them spell out what that looks like and maybe it will show them how unreasonable it is?”

    “Be genuinely happy” was what my boss said. “Fake it until you make it” was what my grandboss said. They didn’t think that as unreasonable at all.

    1. Fikly*

      I will simply point out that your employer is attempting to own your emotions, and this is as completely insane as the manager who was making her employees tape their mouths shut in meetings.

      Remember all the employees who voluntarily complied with her.

    2. Avasarala*

      This reads like “I have tried everything, nothing worked, there is nothing I can do, there is no way to make my situation better, it just sucks.”

      Sometimes that can be a helpful attitude, to realize that you have tried everything and you don’t need to keep searching for ways to optimize or improve, and you just need to tough it out until the circumstances change. If this is where you are, great, hang in there and good luck.

      Sometimes it’s a defeatist attitude that keeps you in a bad situation longer because you don’t see any point in trying. Every negative thing just adds to the mountain on your shoulders and you do nothing to try to remove it or ask for help, because there will just be more added, so why bother.

      It sounds like you are here.
      (Because you have already tried all the suggestions, and this line in particular: “The universe has cock-blocked me at every turn about it.”)

      I suggest you take what you have written last week and here to your therapist and explore your defeatism. Sometimes we wrap ourselves in misery because it is kind of comfortable, because changing our mood and situation seems like so much effort, because being pitied makes us feel kind of special and we want our struggles acknowledged. But it’s not a place from which we can be truly vulnerable, truly self-reflective, or truly comfortable and happy and hopeful. It is actually the depression saying to us “You can’t do this, don’t bother trying, it’s too much effort to try and you are too tired.” It keeps us weak and hopeless when actually we can be strong, we can change our circumstances, we can feel better. I speak from experience here.

      It sounds like you have the resources you need. Best of luck to you.

  84. Boo boo the fool*

    Hi everyone, did anyone get a pay cut due to COVID-19 related things? I work for the state and we took a biiiig hit. We are lucky that we are not furloughed, but it’ll be a cut that will last two years at best.

    I just started this new job (T_T) and the pay cut really hurts. I mean, I know I’m gonna have to take up a second job to help make ends meet now. I really like the job though and want to commit to staying in it so I can really learn the role. However… sometimes I see job postings for jobs I’d be qualified for with higher pay. I guess I’m just dealing with the guilt. I don’t know any of my coworkers who are planning on leaving, it’s a ‘we’re all in this together’ mindset, which is nice. I do know other coworkers are picking up a second job.

    I may make it through the year and see how my finances are, but those who have received a pay cut, are you sticking it through in hopes you’ll get a pay raise again? Or are you looking elsewhere?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      It can’t hurt to look elsewhere. Don’t let groupthink stop you from looking out for your own best interests – the company wasn’t looking out for your best interests when they cut your pay, it was looking out for its own.

      It may be risky to start a new job during a pandemic, but it’s already risky to stay at your current job. And a semi-risky job that can actually support you sounds better than having to work two jobs to make ends meet, but you’ll ultimately have to decide that for yourself.

    2. CTT*

      I’m at one of the many (judging by the Above the Law coverage) BigLaw firms that did across the board paycuts. I haven’t considered leaving because so many firms are on hiring freezes and my firm has been fairly transparent regarding how they came to the decision and how they’ll move forward. I am also very lucky that I’m in a place with a low cost of living, and my student loans are in forbearance so it basically cancels the cut out.

    3. Fikly*

      Working one job, normal hours, and earning enough to live on is not something to feel guilty about.

    4. Anon pay reduction*

      We had pay reductions starting early May, ranging from 3-10% depending on how much peoples’ salaries were. While no pay cut is good, I thought they would be deeper, so I was a bit relieved with the ones that were enacted (I’m in the 5% tier). I just hope that they were enough to stave off layoffs later, versus having done smaller pay cuts that don’t work well enough and still needing layoffs in addition.

    5. Lucette Kensack*

      Yep. 25% reduction here. It sucks.

      The official letter said it would last for up to 6 months. We have a new fiscal year starting in July, so it’s possible that we’ll see changes then.

  85. Understimulated*

    Not sure if I just need to vent or if I could use some advice but…

    In many ways I’ve been pretty fortunate. I work for an employer with a good culture and strong work-life balance. I make decent money, have great benefits for someone at my career stage, can work from home during the pandemic, and my job is (probably) recession-proof.

    While I’m grateful for all that (especially during the current crisis), I can’t help but feel dissatisfied anyway. I find most of the work itself to be very boring, and I rarely have enough work to fill a whole day.

    For better or worse, I am a dreamer: I love learning and critical thinking and thinking about the big-picture. I always imagined I would be a journalist or in a PhD program, but it hasn’t worked out that way. Both of those fields are hyper-competitive and filled with Type-A personalities who had been preparing for those careers since they were college freshmen, and I’ve never been able to find a viable way for me to enter these professions.

    I know people say you should get my intellectual stimulation outside of work, and I have ideas of ambitious and stimulating personal projects, but counter-intuitively I find my boring and slow-paced job leaves me feeling unmotivated and tired at the end of the day, and all I want to do with my free time is play video games, watch TV, or hang out with my partner.

    I don’t plan on switching jobs in the near term (the next 2-3 years) for both personal and corona-related reasons, and I’m ok with that, but the thought of doing this kind of work for the next 5-10 years, let alone the rest of my life, is depressing.

    I know this is a very privileged problem to have, most people don’t get fulfillment from their jobs, etc., but I guess I wish I had a job that consistently challenged me intellectually and kept me busy. I feel stuck, though.

    1. Amy Sly*

      A few questions for you: Is your dissatisfaction with your job, your career trajectory, or your industry? That is, if you were doing the same boring work but were busy all day, would you like it better? Is doing this kind of boring work necessary to get to more interesting work that you’d like to do in your company or industry? Would you be happier doing this same boring work for a more interesting company? Can you take the skills from the boring work to do more interesting work in a different industry?

      And I totally get how a bored-at-word day leaves you more tired than a busy one. Possible way to get intellectual stimulation when you only have the energy for TV: one of the educational subscription services. I use Great Courses Plus, and it’s basically Netflix for college. The courses are taught by top ranked professors on everything from astronomy to Vikings, linguistics to chess.

      1. Understimulated*

        I think the dissatisfaction is a mix of the career trajectory and the job itself. I see the work that higher-ups do at my company, and while it seems somewhat more varied and stimulating than what I do, on the whole it’s more of the same kind of boring work with just an extra layer of management responsibility layered on top.

        I guess what I really want is a job where I’m constantly learning a lot and where I get to focus more on big-picture topics and ideas, preferably ones that are intellectually interesting and important. I think boring work with less downtime would be a little better, but wouldn’t address the root of my dissatisfaction.

        There are more interesting jobs and fields where my skills would transfer, but they are much more competitive than my current field and I have no idea where I’d even being trying to switch into them while still making a living wage. During my last job search, I tried to branch out and apply more widely, but in the end the only offer I got was from my current job in my existing niche, which makes me worry my skills are not in high demand outside of my current field.

    2. Analyst Editor*

      I am someone who has been risk-averse and generally never taken big risks; and I’ve convinced myself that I’d be happy doing something quietly meaningful in X or Y way. I still haven’t fully found a way to quiet the ambitious part of me down…

      But there IS a quote from a book –here a successful middle-aged businessman who (in a science fiction setting) joined the military — after getting angry at his own son for doing so — because he wanted to be “not a producing-consuming economic animal, but a MAN”, which meant taking a risk and leap of faith, doing something bigger than himself. Perhaps a part of you feels that spark and needs to do something bold and risky? I have never had the courage to embrace that sort of leap, but i also had kids, which to me became a source of solace and meaning. Perhaps you need something to give you that meaning?

  86. Does everything need to be on zoom?*

    My boss keeps commenting on my camera being off on Zoom calls. I’m not quite sure what to say to her. I really don’t think that what used to be phone calls now always needs to be video calls. I understand that some people like this, but I don’t for a few reasons.
    1 – I am usually not the only person on the call without the camera on, but for some reason she’s commenting about my camera.
    2 – I find it distracting, both my camera and the cameras of other people. I actually usually try to minimize the video. I find myself paying way too much attention to other people and backgrounds and when my own camera is on I am very self conscious and hyper focused on trying to look like I’m paying attention and worried (probably because she brings up my camera so much) that my boss is watching me and scared to look at my notes or anything else.
    3 – I am working at home with other people and I have kids who might walk in in their underwear at any time or a husband who may come by in his robe or no shirt. These are not an issue for me and my work, but would be very embarrassing for my family. I know I know. Tell them I’m on a call. It just doesn’t always work like that. And I’m working in a room that people need to walk through sometimes.
    4 – I feel like not having a window into my home is one of the last barriers I have left. I’ve worked from home for years in the past and not had this problem, but right now I’m having a hard time compartmentalizing and “clocking out”. I just kind of want this privacy.
    5 – There is often an impromptu “oh let’s screen shot this for social media” and I just don’t want to. See #4 above.

    Am I being silly? I’m also finding the fact that it seem like I’m being singled out in this particularly irksome. And she’s done this on calls with outside folks and I’m going to snap.

    1. Does everything need to be on zoom?*

      For what it’s worth, she has also commented when I mute myself. I would do this on any conference call and I think because she can see the icon she’s aware that I’m muted. Again, I’m not the only one. I do this as a courtesy to prevent echo and because I clear my throat a lot and to keep out other distracting household noise.

    2. Colette*

      So some of these are solvable – if you are worried about people behind you or her seeing your home, can you sit with your back to a wall?

      It’s reasonable to want to do some calls without video, but … is this the hill you want to die on? For some reason, this is important to your boss – possibly important enough that It is affecting her view of your performance. If you can, I’d turn the video on, at least some of the time.

      1. Does everything need to be on zoom?*

        So I think it might be that proverbial hill. I am the ONLY person she’s bringing this up about and I am NOT the only person without my camera on. That might make me sound extreme, but I guess I’m to the point where I’m just like… get off my junk dude.

        1. Buttons*

          How do you know you are the only person she is bringing this up to? Is it possible that the other people with put the camera on for smaller meetings or 1:1 calls with her? If you can, tell her what you told us- that with the way the house is set up it is a very open view of the family, and that would embarrass them and that turning the camera off is the last little bit of work/home separation right now.
          Good luck!

          1. Does everything need to be on zoom?*

            I say this because on calls with 5 of us, I and 2 others will not have cameras on and while on the call with everyone she has singled me out at about it 2-3.

            1. Grapey*

              Do you know if the other people actually have webcams? The zoom meetings I’m part of show icons next to each attendee according to their hardware setup, including a mic and video camera. Some people only have mic icons, meaning they don’t have a camera on their device. The icons turn red and X’ed if they are available but turned off.

              If they do have those icons, I’d just ask about it directly in the meeting. “What’s the purpose for needing only my camera on?”

        2. Colette*

          I mean, that’s fine, but the job market isn’t great right now.

          I agree it’s not fair – but fair is not guaranteed. You can try calmly telling her in your one on ones “hey, you’ve mentioned several times. I don’t usually have it on because with my family on home, I never know whose going to wander by in their underwear. I hope thats not a problem.” That might work.

          But there may be good reasons why she’s treating you differently. Or reasons that aren’t good. But she has the power, so unless it’s illegal discrimination, there’s not much you can do. And fighting with/openly defying your boss rarely ends happily.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I do not think you are being silly at all. Plus, video calls take a lot of bandwidth and often freeze home Internet.
      But your boss is being weird about this… so:

      >Mitigate the video time: Start the call with video on to say hello to everyone, then switch to icon mode
      >Ditto with muting your microphone unless you are the one speaking

      If asked about this, claim you have bandwidth issues, weird mic feedback, and/or background noise and you do not with to be rude to other people on the call. Wash, rinse and repeat. OR, you could also say that you like to take copious notes during the meetings so you switch to non-video because it looks weird on camera to be writing notes during the call. But I think that if you can use video at least a little bit, it might help in this case for her to see that you are definitely present and engaged (which is probably what this is about). Also, if you one-on-ones with your boss, you should opt for some video time if possible so she sees you are not adverse to using it in certain situations.

      1. Does everything need to be on zoom?*

        The bandwidth is also a good point. We are all doing work and school from home and all need internet to do that. One on ones are done over the phone. And interestingly she has never brought it up during these calls, only in group calls where again I am not the only one with my camera off. And bringing up that I’ve muted myself is just extra.

        I don’t know, I will acknowledge that I’m being very stubborn here. But I think this is a Big Deal to me for whatever reason. I have tried to be very flexible during the last 6+ months over staff changes and taking on additional responsibilities and this is one of many areas where I feel like I’m being held to a different standard or something. (I recently pointed out a spelling error in a graphic used on our homepage before it went live (think “heads up, XYZ is spelled wrong here.”) and hours later at nearly 9 p.m. got a curt email about how I was being negative. Suggesting that I do something like a feedback sandwich in these situations.)

        I have considered that she wants everyone on video and is using me as an example to make others turn theirs on, but that’s just … I can’t think of anything to say but dumb. I’m in a bad mood :)

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      You can go for malicious compliance and have your video on but covered by a sticky note or something. Not advocating that path considering your boss seems very “must see your face”, but that you’re getting called out and others aren’t is annoying.

      1. Does everything need to be on zoom?*

        You’re being nicer than me. My thought was to do it topless or from the bathroom.

    5. FreshPrincess*

      I feel you. It’s a Big Deal to me too. I haven’t turned on my camera once for meetings during the pandemic.

      My suggestion would be to have a chat with your boss (on the phone? ha) and ask why you’re being singled out. Perhaps someone else can help with good language for that (my thoughts are very snarky right now).

      1. Does everything need to be on zoom?*

        You and I need to get a drink together over Zoom ;) cameras off.

      2. WellRed*

        I agree. The boss is being weird, and I think you could politely ask why you are being singled out. Or couch it as, “I *feel* like I am being singled out.”

    6. Anon for this.*

      I am fortunate that I don’t have a camera connected to my computer, so I can’t turn it on! But I am with the people who suggest you sign on, say hi, and turn it off to save bandwidth. (Or put a sticky note over it and tell her it’s broken.)

    8. Emma*

      I don’t think you are being silly. There are lots of reasons people may not be comfortable having their cameras on and requiring it is often an unnecessary imposition.
      Most of us are working in less than ideal circumstances and need to be given some leeway to get through. That leeway may be the privacy of turning off a camera.
      I think there may be some situations where it could be fair to ask people to turn on their cameras, but that is not the case for the large majority of meetings.

    9. NotAPirate*

      Try verbalizing responses periodically throughout the meeting. “Good idea” “I agree” “Interesting thought”. Some managers are getting silly about thinking if the video is off and the microphone is muted the person must not be present and listening. Never mind that they trusted us on conference calls via phone for years. Meanwhile on Tuesday I had a guy with video on, get up carry laptop in a kitchen and make a sandwich in the middle of my presentation. Thankfully he muted but I kept getting distracted looking over at him making it. I think video toggle off would have been perfect there.

  87. Nesprin*

    So, I’ve recently found out that my grandboss is trying to sabotage my continued employment. I was hired as a subject matter expert, and apparently by using my expertise to point out issues with ongoing work, I have gained a reputation (in grandbosses’s eyes at least) of being confrontational and difficult to work with.

    I’m having a hard time with this feedback, because raising issues affecting productivity is literally what I was hired to do. I have massively contributed to dept productivity (i.e. when I joined the group it was the least productive group to now within 2 years it’s the most productive group), and the people who I work directly with consider me to be easy to work with. My direct boss has told me that I’m doing a great job and to keep doing what I’m doing, except around grandboss. I suspect that there’s a slant of sexism in grandbosses’s worldview, as my male colleagues at the same level do not get this sort of feedback, and another female coworker who tends to quiet and compliant is grandbosses’s favorite, despite her complete lack of productivity.

    How do I continue doing good work in this position?

    1. Fikly*

      I knew from the first paragraph that you were a woman. How dare you know what you are talking about?

      Sorry, I have no suggestions, just outrage.

      1. New Senior Manager*

        Same. First paragraph. Is boss suggesting you soften around grand boss? Eye roll, but I get it. Has boss offered specific feedback and suggestions? Clearly grand boss has the power so you can’t ignore the situation. You need a plan and it starts with the help of boss. Good luck and please provide an update.

  88. Me--Blargh!*

    Aaaaaaaaannnnnnnd nope, didn’t get past the phone interview. :( (Recap: job I really wanted, one that would have gotten me out of the state, called me for a phone screen last week but then rejected me.) Not too surprising; the company was a very niche start-up. But close isn’t good enough.

    I just can’t seem to catch a break. Going by the job posts, I couldn’t earn what I earned at Exjob in OldCity, and I can’t earn that here either, since salaries in this state are well below the national average. The salary I got at Exjob is only showing up in higher-level jobs I can’t do, like engineering or high-level IT, in medical director jobs (hospitals won’t even hire you to answer the phone anymore unless you’ve already worked in healthcare), or actual scientists.

    I can’t go on like this much longer. I just need a damn break already. This entire state is a trap. I don’t want to get stuck here with a lease on a crap place the same way I was stuck in OldCity. If I’m going to be trapped, I’d rather it’s somewhere I actually want to be.

    1. Colette*

      I’m sorry this isn’t going your way.

      If making your old salary isn’t an option, I hope you’re able to adjust your lifestyle to the salaries as they exist today.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I really just want out. I’ve been unable to even visit the city for so long thanks to lack of money to do anything, and now a pandemic, that I no longer care. The area where I’m staying is rural and there is nothing to do and I m-fing hate it.

        1. Sam I Am*

          I just want to chime in and say, I hear you. It’s super hard, but keep at it.

          “When you’re going through hell, keep going.” -Winston Churchill

    2. Sherm*

      All you need is one yes. So if your success rate in job interviews is 0.001%, then congratulations, you got the job. (And can’t leases often be broken if you need to leave because of a new job?)

    3. Anon for this*

      Sorry, don’t know all the background, but is there a reason you aren’t taking a job, like a cleaner or dog walker or some other service job?

      2. Me--Blargh!*

        Because I currently live with a relative who is at high risk for serious complications of COVID-19. If I’d known this was coming, I would have canceled my house sale in OldCity and tried for a stocking job at a grocery or something. Then I would be alone, and if I got sick, I could isolate. But I’m not, so that’s not really an option right now.

    4. Nynaeve*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry! I think of you often and hope things turn around soon.

      Good vibes! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    5. My Brain Is Exploding*

      So sorry. I look for your posts every week and keep hoping for better news. Sending good vibes your way.

  89. MsChanandlerBong*

    Do you think that you can teach someone to be proactive and pay attention to details, or do you think they’re just qualities you either have or you don’t? If the former, then how would you train someone to do these things?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think I would try to find specific examples of what you need from them. “I need you to reduce your error rate in your Mongoose reports to 5% from the current 25%.”

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yes, focus on results. What would being proactive look like? What type of needs do you want them to anticipate, or what type of problems do you want prevented?

    2. Alianora*

      I don’t have a lot of hope for people like that. You can try to set up systems for them and make checking for mistakes as easy as possible. But if they don’t have a mindset or aptitude for catching details/coming up with their own ideas, I think it’s very hard for an external source to change that.

    3. Fikly*

      That is pretty much the point of checklists in industries where safety and not having mistakes is critical. And they have revoluntionized these industries in terms of reducing death and other serious injuries.

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      I don’t think this is a skill that someone can teach or train, but it is something that a person can develop. So what a manager can do is to set expectations, provide very clear feedback and offer coaching on techniques that might work for the person.

  90. Josephine Beth NotAmy*

    A question for anyone who normally is in a home visitor capacity for work. What, if any, are your organization’s plans for returning to home visits? Have they addressed any concerns about vulnerable populations (both the consumer and the provider)?
    My state hasn’t opened yet, and there’s been no real guidance about when we might go back to “normal”, but I’m already terrified. On a call last week, my grandboss – who I respect and find very professional under most circumstances – was asked the question about what if people are worried about returning, and he basically said, “people will just need to decide if they want a job or not”. Now, obviously it was a general question, but his answer has stuck with me, and I’ve been incredibly anxious. My daughter is very immunocompromised and there’s no way that level of exposure will be ok if I have to go back. The clients I work with have been fine with virtual sessions, and I can do 100% of my job from home. In fact, if anything, I’m able to get a lot more done now.
    I also supervise staff who do home visits and some of them have spouses who are considered vulnerable, and a couple of them have health issues that put them at risk. And on top of all that, many (most) of our clients are considered very vulnerable as well. I’m obviously concerned about more than just myself.
    My boss does not really allow anyone to go around her and has specifically asked us not to go to grandboss or HR with questions until the organization issues some guidance. I can understand that, but I guess my question is – should I try to plan ahead by talking with someone? does anyone have experience in handling this as their states or businesses have reopened? Or am I going to have to think about losing a job I really love?

    1. New Senior Manager*

      I’d be working on a safe, reasonable, and detailed plan for returning in case your input is invited. Do research on similar companies who have returned or in the process of returning. Consider how their plans may work for your own company, department and team. Good luck!

  91. AnotherLibrarian*

    I’m a fairly new manager and I need to move some duties from one position to another. Let’s say from Sara to Mike. I have support from my boss to make these changes, but I suspect Sara will not take this well. She’s been there much longer than Mike, but I need her to do more of another job duty. Does anyone have advice on how to navigate this and also some language I might use? I’ve never had to do this before and I am very worried about how Sara will respond.

    1. Buttons*

      Sarah is going to need to know why you need her to focus on the other duties and to be reassured that this isn’t a lack of confidence in her ability to do what is being transfered to Mike. If all that is true, that is.
      “Sarah, because you are strong in in X I would like you have more time to dedicate to Y. To give you that time I am going to assign Z to Mike.” Then I would ask her thoughts on it and how she feels about the changes.

    2. DragoCucina*

      It’s helpful if is evening out job load. Because you want Sara to focus on the teapot collection you’re giving lama shelf reading to Mike. Think of it as a positive. Present it as a positive. Sara may still be unhappy. But, you have to make a management decision for the overall good.

  92. Under a Storm Cloud*

    Help! I’m stuck in a negative headspace. My manager and I don’t get along, so my job at times is really frustrating.

    There is a lot I enjoy about it but I feel like I just constantly focus on the things I don’t like, my interactions with my manager that are less than pleasant, etc.

    Prior to covid, I told myself I’d start looking for a new job this summer. I’m going to start applying but I know it might take awhile so I’m trying to figure out how to get through my day to day without feeling miserable.

    Any suggestions?

    1. Megumin*

      When I was in that situation with my last job, just the act of applying for jobs helped. Making that first step towards changing my situation gave me the feeling that I had regained some control, and that it was going to be temporary. I didn’t know how long it would take…but there would be an end. That knowledge also helped me compartmentalize my interactions with my boss, so I could get through things with professional detachment. So definitely start applying, even if you only do one app every now and then. Whenever you get back into that negative space, remind yourself that it’s temporary. Good luck!

  93. VictoriaQ*

    Okay, I know this is pretty petty, but I feel guilty for being bored (and understimulated) at work. I know that an entry-level job after graduating college is going to be boring. I know that, especially in a job like accounting, there aren’t really chances for glamorous and exciting projects. This was known.

    But I still feel bad for feeling bored at work and wanting to do other things. I usually try to limit stuff that’s non-work to a few minutes at a time, as infrequently as I can. Part of it is that my job does come with some built-in down time, and while I could ask for more work, I always hesitate because, well, it’s boring. And I feel bad. And I worry that at busier times, it will make me feel overwhelmed (again, accounting, so things ebb and flow every month, not over a year like some jobs) and stressed. And yet I also want to justify it to myself. After all, I’m not a robot, is it really awful for me to take little breaks throughout the day to refresh myself?

    (Yes, I’m trying to find a therapist, but given the times and my insurance, this has been harder than usual)

    1. nat*

      Take the breaks and find something you enjoy or that makes you feel accomplished to do with them! Most people get through their working lives and first jobs this way! If you are performing within expectations at work and you are learning about what you (dis)like, you’re doing the right things for a first job.

    2. WellRed*

      Not petty at all. People really underestimate how hard it can be to be bored at work. Some downtime is nice, but for most of us, I think we’d prefer that to be in smaller doses. It’s exhausting to look for things to do all day.

    3. Fikly*

      So I have found that the more you fight an emotion, or shame yourself for having an emotion, the worse that emotion gets, and the more bad you feel overall!

      You’re bored! It’s totally valid! It’s not fun!

      Focus on what you can do to cope with the boredom, not on being angry with yourself for being bored.

  94. CatCat*

    Finally just had a crying/sobbing breakdown (kind of still am, need to pull it together for a meeting later though). Mind and body are just so tired. Getting berated for something I didn’t know (and also that is not that big of a deal/simple to resolve) a short while ago finally just did me in. This used to be a literal dream job for me. I hate how that’s changed.

    1. Lyudie*

      Ugh I’m sorry…this is a really tough time and everyone is under a lot of strain. Hope you can do something nice for yourself this weekend <3

    2. Sam I Am*

      I had a crying breakdown a few weeks ago. I was able to cancel my online work for the rest of the day and really just feel it and get past it.

      Sucks about being berated, if that’s unusual try to see it as an anomaly and not something to really internalize. If it’s business as usual, of course you’ll have to figure out how to deal with it, which you can do the work on when you aren’t “In the moment.”

  95. Please Exit Through The Rear Door*

    I have an interview for a promotion within my organization next week, but I’m feeling oddly squicky about it because:

    (1) My coworker, Betty, is also interviewing for this promotion and I honestly think she’d be a better fit for the job right away than I would. She’s also been working twice as hard as me since we switched to working from home. I really think she deserves it. The thing is that I have twice as much seniority as her and more visibility in the organization overall.

    (2) This entire process may be moot because Veronica, an industry-award-winning rock-star employee from a different part of the organization, has been doing the job on an interim basis since the incumbent left the organization just before COVID happened. Given her standing in the company, there’s a good chance the position is already hers and the interviews (required due to union guidelines) are a formality for both me and Betty.

    (3) Since COVID, the nature of our industry has changing as we speak, and I haven’t really processed the changes yet. I’m not even sure how this new position is going to be different now, and if I ask the question on the interview, they’re most likely going to throw it back to me and ask me what I think. My answer, right now, is “I don’t know.”

    I desperately want to leave my particular department, and this position (as the job description was written pre-COVID) would probably be a great professional opportunity for me. It also would come with a huge raise. Those are good things!

    On the other hand, the interview is with high-level people in the company, and I already bombed one interview earlier this year for a job I totally should have gotten (I didn’t sleep the night before, then had a bad day before an end-of-the-day interview). I don’t feel like i can adequately prepare for an interview for a position that has so many unknowns due to how our entire industry is going to change, and a second subpar interview and my reputation, I think, will be permanently damaged.

    This is kind of a mess of a post — I’m sorry. I guess the TL/DR is that I applied for a promotion that I was excited about before we closed due to the virus, another colleague deserves it more, the interim person doing the job will probably get the job anyway, and I’m wondering if I should go through with the interview or withdraw and not put myself through the massive stress. Thanks!

    1. FreshPrincess*

      Please be kinder to yourself!

      Remember that you’re not the hiring committee, so your job isn’t to decide if Betty deserves the job more, or whether Veronica already has it in the bag. Channel the energy from worrying about them into coming up with an answer about how the job may be different now because of how the world has changed. Part of your answer can definitely be “I’m not certain,” but you should have some ideas.

      I’m a fan of taking interviews because they can position you for other moves, even if it doesn’t work out for this particular position. Do your best, but also think of it as an opportunity to get in some practice so you’ll be more prepared down the line for future interviews.

      1. Please Exit Through The Rear Door*

        Thank you so much. I think that’s a really good way to look at it. (It’s also exactly what my wife told me immediately after I posted it, almost verbatim!)

        For what it’s worth, I decided almost immediately after posting that long screed to NOT withdraw, for all of the reasons listed in your last paragraph. And if nothing else, I could really use the experience with video interviewing. (I only did it once before, back when Skype was a new novelty, and it was awful.)

        Thanks again.

      2. Fikly*

        So much this!

        Your job is to present why you are a good fit for the role.

        Their job is to decide who to hire.

  96. Llama Wrangler*

    TLDR: What questions should I think about asking if my company wants me to take on a new, short term role that is out of the scope of what I’ve done before?

    Longer version: My company provides Llama Grooming services, and my role within the organization has been to manage all the oversight of returning Llamas to their owners after grooming. Because of various thing about how the company runs, exacerbated by being remote, I have not had a huge amount to work on (the llama returner who I supervise has plenty to do, but some of the big picture work has evaporated, and funding we were looking at getting to expand our Llama Return department has dried up). Now my boss has asked me to take on managing a new, pilot Llama Grooming program. This is specific to remote work and has a very tight turnaround and timeline. I don’t feel like I have enough on my plate to justify turning this down, and it seems like a good opportunity for me to take on a bit more leadership in the company (especially because since the main work is Llama Grooming, my Llama Returning role has always been a little bit sidelined). But I also wonder whether this will be chaotic and might set me up to fail, publicly and in a somewhat high stakes role. (They are definitely not trying to set me up for failure, but it’s not clear how much any of the regular llama grooming leadership will have capacity to support me.)

    If you were being asked to step into a new, temporary leadership role leading a pilot, what questions would you ask? What are things that you think I should keep in mind, either before committing or once in the role?

    1. juliebulie*

      I’d want to know things like: is there a safety net, who is on my team, what is the scope (is it a fixed number of llamas or is it every llama that shows up), what is the long-term objective of this pilot, is there wiggle room for making adjustments as we go, are there any teapots, etc….

        1. juliebulie*

          When you said “high stakes” I thought you meant “impact to customers,” and you’d want some kind of backup plan in case things go sideways.

          But maybe the backup plan is up to you… good luck!

  97. RussianInTexas*

    The question this morning about “too serious work place” – I don’t think the OP is wrong but I also don’t think the workplace culture is wrong either. People like and want different things.
    I hated the open floorplan (I hope they die in fire after COVID) at my old job and was so happy when I got an office I could close the door to other people. I am perfectly happy collaborating via slack and e-mail. And never ever have after work get together with coworkers. I think I would die in one of those “fun” tech companies.
    My current company is “serious”. Not buttoned up or uptight, but we don’t have get-together, any events (only holiday lunch), fun things, zoom meetings, and people are mostly just coworkers, not friends. You come to work, you work, you go home.
    And that’s fine with me! But it would probably be a “boring” workplace for others. And that’s perfectly fine too!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Honestly, your workplace sounds like heaven!
      I’m just a person who thinks work is WORK and you’re not there to socialize, hangout with friends, party, or make it a huge part of filling my non-work social needs too. I find people who want that kinda weird. I just want to do my job and go home thanks.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I chat with few coworkers when we get coffee in the morning, or when we go for lunch together sometimes, but overall it’s fairly “non-social”. Not non-communicative, but not “fun” either.
        Possibly because most of my coworkers tend to be older, and everyone runs home after work to get kids, run errands, things like that.

        1. allathian*

          I get you. When I was in my 20s, I loved working for companies with a very social work culture. Going to a pub for a drink or two every Friday following a payday was great. These days, I usually just want to go home ASAP even when we are working at the office. After a team training day, we’ll go for a drink afterwards, but that’s once a year and fun. But I couldn’t do it once a month anymore.
          I like my coworkers and my boss, and we talk about more than just work stuff. We’re friendly, but they aren’t my friends.

  98. WellRed*

    Curious: My company division is located in a different state from HQ, and we have a coworker in a different state. The CW was told to file her unemployment claim in the state the rest of us are in. This surprised us, as we thought she should file in the state she lives in. However, she filed her taxes in our state, so maybe that’s why? (I was also surprised she filed her taxes in our state). I thought remote employees went by their residing state for everything.

    1. It's me*

      could there be a reciprocity agreement between the state she lives in and the state HQ is in? Otherwise I’d agree that all seems strange

      1. MissDisplaced*

        There are some states that do this. Especially if the states are close by. I had to file in my “work” state, but still also had to apply for UI in my “home” state knowing it would be rejected and referred to the “work” state.
        Also had to file taxes in both states.

        It can be a real pain if you live in a border-state area like PA-NJ-DE-MD or NY-NJ-CT

    2. WellRed*

      I should clarify: it’s three separate states. HQ is Midwest, remote employee is in the southwest and we are New England, where she was told to file.

      1. Flyleaf*

        Who told her? The employer, or the state unemployment office where she lives? What matters is what the unemployment office says, not the employer.

    3. Flyleaf*

      It looks like employer and/or employee is involved in a scam. Employee should be filing taxes in the state where they are doing the work, regardless of where the company is located. Employer might have done this to avoid having a legal nexus in employee’s state, or simply because they didn’t want to have to deal with dealing with employee’s state bureaucracy. Or maybe employee is trying to avoid high tax rates in their state. In either case, this is a real mess and could rise to the level of a crime.

      1. Jaimie the B*

        This is not true. There are states where you file in the location of your office, but not necessarily where you live (NY/NJ for example). Unless you’re a tax attorney, I’d love for people to avoid calling things a scam – that’s a pretty serious accusation without knowing any facts.

        1. Flyleaf*

          You can always file in the state you live. The state will then tell you to file in another state if that’s the case. There’s no evidence that she contacted her home state, which is where the smell of a scam comes from. The coworker needs to contact her state unemployment office, and follow what they say.

  99. greased up weasel*

    Query – I have a jr role as a software admin but am the only admin at this time. 6 months ago the Sr admin left (I was ever the only ever member of the team) and I took over the software entirely. The intention was I would “Take over the role” (which was vague and never clearly defined) “in the next 6 months).

    Anyways, I’m in an industry hard-hit by COVID. I was planning to ask for a raise but obviously well, that’s not gonna happen anytime soon. I don’t have enough experience yet to find another job doing this easily.

    Should I ask for a title bump to just “Administrator” (drop the Jr) even without the chance for a raise? Or will it hurt my chances for a raise later? Either way I’m underpaid industry-wise, so mostly I’m thinking of going for the title bump so I can have a better-looking resume.

    1. juliebulie*

      I would ask for the title bump now, and ask for a raise after the dust settles.

  100. curious*

    Hi everyone…. I’m helping a friend out who is starting a a business. My friend is offering a service that is needed in the normal course of business but would be considered the last item on a checklist on a project; some might say it is a luxury but needed. Prior to COVID19 Friend had made a large number of great contacts at a convention, many of who wanted to get in touch over the summer. Given that our state probably won’t open until Julyish at earliest and most companies will just be reinventing themselves, when would be a good time to reach out. Summer? Fall? Wait until 2021? We don’t want to bombard companies that are still struggling but would like to say we’re still here. Any suggestions?

  101. YRH*

    Does anyone know how likely state governments (heavily unionized environment if that makes a difference) are to offer some sort of buyout/incentivized early retirement prior to layoffs?

    1. Oxford Comma*

      I suspect this is going to be highly specific to the state in question, but I have been wondering if this might be coming in mine. They are talking massive massive cuts and personnel does eat up a lot of the budget.

  102. HannahS*

    I’m proud of myself for learning from a mistake!

    Last year, a supervisor wrote me a sexist evaluation. I sent back an unprofessional reply–not swearing or anything, just rude (and accidentally to the wrong person–yikes)–and then vented to a friend who 100% called me on it and said I had to apologize. I did, which probably saved my butt from getting in a LOT of trouble, and promised myself never to send things while angry.

    So, now, a year later, my professional group on Facebook is going up in flames over some ill-advised comments made by some of my peers over COVID-related financial aid. Late last night, I was incredibly tempted to chime in (by linking an article on how to apologize after that same friend made some pretty vulnerable comments about being hurt and was hit with “I can’t control your feelings” from the OP) but I refrained. Today, I spent some time writing out a thoughtful and gracefully expressed contribution to the conversation about apologies, power, and self-reflection. It was completely shot down by the OPs, but I’m still proud of myself. It was a good reminder that public debates are about the spectators/readers, not about changing the other person’s mind.

    1. Fikly*

      That’s awesome!

      Recognizing you made a mistake is super hard. Learning from it, and then not repeating it is super hard too!

      It says a lot about you that you were able to do both.

  103. Baffled Teacher*

    Hi all! This isn’t even my personal problem, it’s more like Am I the Asshole? (Or is my sister’s teammate, in this case)

    My sister and I are roommates working from home. I’m in K-12 ed and my prep/lunch break coincides with her daily team meeting. I overhear pieces of it most days while I’m making lunch (as do their families, I’m guessing; no one is wearing headphones or discussing anything confidential).

    Sis meets with 2 teammates, Supervisor Jane, and (most days) Grandboss Fergus. Everyone is stressed (essential business) and overworked.

    HOWEVER. One teammate is particularly frustrated (this is long-standing, according to sis, not just Covid-related) and I have heard her say these things to Jane multiple times:

    * “I’m so f*ing done with this place”
    * I’m f*ing sick of Fergus’s bullshit; he keeps promising to move me into other roles dangling like a f*ing carrot and he never will, I’ve been here four f*in years and I do twice the work of anybody”
    * [Jane: …so that’ll be a December priority] “haha if I’m even here by then, did I tell you I applied at Llama Grooming LLC”
    * [Jane: the Teapot Inspector position is being expanded; you should apply] “why should I bother? Fergus doesn’t give a s* about my career and Sansa will get it even though everyone f*ing knows I do all her f*ing work anyway”
    * [Jane: would you send this email—] “no.” [Ok but I’m telling you—] “no. I’m not sending an email. It’s a waste of my f*ing time and I’m sick of telling them how to do their f*ing jobs.”

    She complains when work gets assigned to her, raises her voice, complains about her pay, conveniently has “migraines” many Friday afternoons, threatens to quit, etc etc etc. I have heard her say most of these things with less profanity DIRECTLY TO FERGUS. And—this is my real sticking point—at the most Fergus and Jane’s reactions are: awkward silence, pause, a “well this isn’t the proper forum,” a “[forced laugh] ok moving on!” etc.

    I guess my question is: is this, like, standard behavior in a workplace? Teachers TOTALLY bitch but not to the principal’s face in a faculty meeting! I’ve overheard enough (and been told enough by my sister) to know that the underIying gripes about Fergus personally and the institution as a whole are justified, but I find this incredibly awkward even just to overhear every day…shouldn’t Fergus and Jane shut her down?? What is going ON??

    1. Lyudie*

      W O W noooo not normal in most offices!! I think she’d be managed out with crappy attitude in most (good) places.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Honestly, even bad places I’ve worked for wouldn’t tolerate that kind of disrespect. How on earth have Fergus and Jane become managers with that kind of refusal to enforce norms-within-shouting-distance-of-professional?!

        My only thought is that she’s being protected by some jerk of a great-grandboss, because I can’t fathom any other way she wouldn’t fired.

    3. Littorally*

      Not normal at all, and with an attitude like that it is 0% surprising that no one above her gives a hoot about helping her career along.

      1. Baffled Teacher*

        Jane’s only been there about a year; she inherited the whole circus and its monkeys. I blame her a lot less than I blame Fergus, who prior to this (now that I think about it) mismanaged Former Jane who a) my sister suspected but couldn’t prove was drinking on the job b) told a dept head in the middle of the open plan office to go f himself and c) left so much work undone when she quit that it came down on my sister’s head and affected her performance and raise in Feb. So maybe Fergus just sucks?

        Sis is getting her master’s done and reimbursed and then she is OUT, she’s telling me. At least she has good benefits lol.

    4. Double A*

      I’m a teacher too, so my norms are set to K-12, but this doesn’t sound normal.

      Is it bothering you? Because if so you could just pretend your sister is watching a sitcom or reality show and you’re overhearing a terrible character. It’s definitely not your circus and not your monkeys, but hearing negativity can be a drag in real life. But for some reason it’s okay when it’s some TV show.

      1. Baffled Teacher*

        It’s not really bothering me except in a secondhand way, like I feel bad for my sister and Teammate 3 and secondhand embarrassment that Fergus and Jane are putting up with this. I mean, come on.

  104. Reluctantly Hermione*

    I’m taking the CIPP privacy compliance 2.5 hour exam next week, and even though I’ve prepped since March, I’m still getting headaches and worried about not passing this exam which was partly covered through work. It’s $375 for a retake.

    I know it’s not the bar exam, but I barely passed the bar after multiple tries (of my cohort of multiple bar takers (due to repeat failure), I was one of the 10% of people who passed).

    It’ll open doors and all if I pass, but why oh why did I voluntarily decide to subject myself to studying? On such a sunny, sunny day? :///

    1. Lizzie*

      Because one day in the future it will be a sunny, sunny day AND you will also have the extra qualification! And on that day you will say to yourself Gee I am glad I got that over and done with.
      Best of luck to you!

  105. Curious*

    Hey guys,

    I work my dream job and have no intention of leaving. However, due to Covid we’ve been given a heads up that a 20% lay-off is coming. We’ll find out specifically who get a 60 day notice at the end of the month. Should I be proactive and start applying to new positions now, or wait until I know for sure in a couple weeks? If I don’t get a lay-off notice I don’t want to leave what is my ideal position with work, coworkers, and pay that I all enjoy.

    1. hmmmm*

      I would take a proactive approach. It can’t hurt to look or even just get your resume in order. I think it will take some time to find a new job so you’d be getting a head start. The “worst” that happens is if you’re not laid off you can pass along leads to other coworkers.

    3. Fikly*

      Apply now. If you keep your job, applying somewhere else doesn’t mean you have to leave your job.

    4. Sam I Am*

      At least get your resume up to date, if it isn’t already. Get informed on how the different job-websites work so you don’t have to learn all new systems when / if you decide to / have to start searching.

      Fingers crossed for you!

  106. Need adobe help please*

    Hi , I am looking for help with adobe acrobat 2017.
    I am using a template (created with PDFMaker 2 yrs ago) and I am copying multiple T/F check boxes to another PDF/new form (acrobat 2017).
    When I paste the check boxes in the new form:
    -the check boxes ungroup, so I can’t move them together
    -I get a double sided arrow pointer when I hover over any of the check boxes
    -When I move one of these boxes, the box will remain in the same spot and enlarge, does not move
    I have been looking on line and can’t find a good fix for it. Help!

  107. nat*

    Just wanted to share my manager’s latest update. I work in a clinic providing allied health services. I see clients/patients in-person, have a shared office space, and my boss hasn’t left her office in a month. Cue eyeroll. Am I just extremeley jaded by how my organization has handled things, or does this strike anyone as ridiculous?

    office door: After reading information recently on Covid 19 toilet flush aerosols, out of an abundance of caution I am going to begin keeping my office door closed unless I am social distance meeting with someone as we have been doing (as you know I am directly across from 2 busy bathrooms that are getting busier as our clinic ramps up). I still have an “OPEN DOOR” for you and will indicate on my door my status for you. Continue to schedule meetings using Outlook and if you want to stop by you can call ahead/text ahead or the like and I will open the door ahead of your arrival so you don’t have to knock or touch the handle. You can also call for me at the door -unless I am on the phone I will hear you! We will see how that goes. Crazy times – constant adaptations for safety!

      1. nat*

        I can see how closing a door is prudent, not because of toilet-generated aerosols, which is very likely not a thing, but just generally – but I think the frustration is from an out-of-touch administration that makes all kinds of decisions about what kind of level of risk staff must shoulder without shouldering any risk themselves.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          Ain’t that always the case though – the current situation only highlights existing inequalities.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I would find it grating too. Your manager is basically saying here’s a new potential risk and here’s how I’m protecting *myself* from it, without any acknowledgement of how everyone else in the office will continue to be at risk because they don’t have the option of being behind a closed door.

      If she was already keeping the door closed, it’s really tone deaf to now announce it. If this is a new thing for her, I could see letting you all know she’s just planning to keep the door closed more often without going into how it’s for protecting her.

      1. nat*

        Yeah, this is how I/we feel! It just seems completely tone deaf. I basically feel safe at work and live in a state that’s doing a good job managing things, but I think bringing up things like toilet aerosols while working in a medical facility just contributes to mass hysteria. (I am not saying all of this is mass hysteria; I agree with stay at home orders and actually think it’s dumb that I’m working from clinic since I could do telemedicine at home).

    3. Sunshine on a rainy day*

      Sounds sensible and reasonable to me. Are you just at the “eating crackers” stage with this person? Or do you genuinely think they shouldn’t be taking all measures possible to protect themself?

  108. CupcakeCounter*

    Another question…would this be stupid?
    So I mentioned above that I was laid off Tuesday and somehow already have a job interview. It looks great on paper – stable company with a long history in our area and a blend of what I’ve done for the past 10 years and where I was looking to go in the new job I got a few months ago, equitable commute to last job, and could possibly be a touch higher in salary.

    Here is my problem…I don’t really want it. As much as getting laid off sucked, after the initial shock wore off I was sort of excited about the possibility of having the summer off. We are secure financially and I qualify for unemployment. With the federal bump it is a 25% pay cut but the cost of childcare for the summer would negate a large chunk of that difference so financially it is not a total bonehead move. My son is scheduled to start middle school in the fall and is not at all ready so being able to dedicate more than just some weekend time getting him ready (through online resources and tutoring) would be very beneficial. We also have a summer place by a lake so spending extra time there would make everyone happy.

    Would it be stupid to not job search until July/August if I don’t get this job? Half of me says take the time now while my kid still halfway likes hanging out with his parents and the other half says there will be thousands of people job searching in the fall so I will either have to take something less than ideal/a pay cut/or stay unemployed longer than is very easily excusable by COVID. I spent a year looking for the position that just laid me off since I was employed and could afford to be picky.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      If you’re offered the job, could you negotiate a delayed start? Do you have an idea that they’re interested in moving quickly? Even if you could start in August rather than July, it would enable you to achieve a lot of your desired aims in the meantime.

      Best of luck either way.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t think it’s ever stupid to take a break if you can swing it, whether that’s from working or from job searching. But I also think that it’s mid-May and the process may take a while with this job alone, and there’s always the chance they might be fine with you starting a month after the offer. I don’t know what I’d do in your position, but I’ll tell you this– going into a job interview knowing you don’t really need it is one of my favorite feelings. In that position, I would feel so much more relaxed.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      Will you be eligible for unemployment if you stop searching? I would think not.

      Also, keep in mind that the extra COVID benefit expires in July.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        There are currently no job search requirements in order to collect unemployment due to COVID. Obviously that will change in a few months. My plan was to start looking late July, early August for a post Labor day start date.
        Doubt I could put this position off until August/September, but could probably delay until after the July 4th holiday. I’m going through the same recruiter who assisted with my last two job searches and the process has always gone really quickly when they are involved. Both went from initial contact to offer in about 2 weeks.

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      This is a question only you can answer. We just don’t know what is going to happen to the economy. If you feel the field you are in will be in demand even if the economy continues to be weak for 2-3 years OR you can afford to be unemployed for longer than the summer, then go ahead. If not, I would continue to look for a job. But only you know the answers to those questions.

  109. Ellen Jade*

    I am a director of a department, overseeing about 10 employees. All are in a supportive role, providing administrative or event-related support to our fundraising team. The fundraising team raises money through mail appeals, fundraising events, email campaigns, etc. The administrative assistants mange multiple priorities at any given time. Each event has a standard number of tasks with due dates outlined in a project system, but the fundraising team often contacts their administrative assistant with multiple requests for additional tasks, sometimes without my knowledge. Most of these tasks are minor, such as pulling a report from our CRM or updating an address in the system. My team knows to inform me of any major projects that are requested.

    Most of my team manages the workload very well. They get frustrated at times, but they help one another and know how to prioritize. I have one employee who has been with us for a few years now. She frequently has difficulty managing her workload. She is much slower than the rest of her colleagues and many times over-thinks each item. Her colleagues have told me at times that they don’t want to help her because she then micro-manages them as they are completing tasks for her or she takes a 15 minute break to prepare her tea. She is also the only one on my team who openly has the “what have you done for me lately” attitude.

    Her evaluation last year reflected her inability to meet deadlines and we met weekly to review her priorities and she improved. I felt that after a year she should be able to prioritize independently. She is a seasoned admin afterall. She made significant progress and her review this year reflected that. After her review, I feel that she has reverted to her slow ways and her excuse for not completing tasks is that she had something more pressing that needed to get done. Because there are often various tasks being given to her that I am not aware of (some are small and might take 2-5 minutes), it is hard for me to gauge her exact workload and therefore setting expectations is difficult other than just telling her that she has to figure out a way to get everything done.

    I have heard from her colleagues who come in early or stay late on their own time so that they can work with less pressure, that she said that they make her look bad because she does not come in early or stay late. She very much has the 9-5 with an hour lunch thought process.

    I find giving feedback difficult because it is very hard to give specific examples of when she hasn’t met expectations. If she makes mistakes or misses an assignment entirely, that is easy, but it’s the every day workload that is hard to pinpoint. If she hasn’t completed something that I think should have been completed by then, the reason is because something else came up.

    I’m looking for suggestions about how to manage her. Do I micromanage every single thing she does? Do I have her send me a task list every day? I have started the weekly meetings again, and plan to have her tell me what her priorities are instead of me listing them out for her.

    Please help!

    1. WellRed*

      Have a clear and direct conversation with her about what is expected/required in the role and be clear about where she is falling short and the consequences of not meeting expectations. Offer to help her if there are any accommodations that will help her succeed in the role (doubtful). Set a timeline and stick to it, like check in in a month or whatever makes sense. Then, maybe it’s PIP time. Maybe it’s let her go time.

      1. Ellen Jade*

        Thank you for your reply.

        Basically, it is finish all of your work, PERIOD. No excuses, no complaining.

    2. Nacho*

      I’m a little worried about the whole “I have heard from her colleagues who come in early or stay late on their own time…” bit you mentioned. Are you sure she has enough time to finish all her work? She shouldn’t be expected to come in on her own time to finish these things, and if other people are doing that, then I agree with her that it’s not fair to her to hold her to that standard.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Wait, your other admins are working unpaid overtime to keep up?

        If you’re in the US that’s just illegal. They have to be paid for all the hours they work.

        If the other admins have to work overtime to get their tasks done, then she isn’t really slower than they are. She’s just working the hours you pay her for.

        That’s a problem with your business model, not her attitude or productivity.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      My first response to “something else came up,” might be, “Why is this the first I’m hearing of it? Part of managing priorities is communication. Can you agree to do that going forward?”

  110. Admiral Thrawn is Still Blue*

    I have to be careful how I phrase this so it’s properly vague. My company has made a necessary choice that has made many (soon to be ex) customers very, very angry. One especially. He’s made quite a few phone calls already, raging, cursing, abusive and foul phrasing. As current receptionist I have to take these calls first. He’s shown bizarre traits too, pretending to be someone else and then launching into his angry rants. Now he’s threatening to come up here on his next day off. (different city, but not that far away). Empty threat? Or just feels like he’s going to make this his last stand?

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      Respectfully, Admiral, that’s above your paygrade.
      Notify your boss and grand boss and notify the authorities.

      1. Admiral Thrawn is Still Blue*

        I definitely have. As soon as I hung up on him – he is so awful he gives no other choice – I sent the email to my manager. But they are dismissing it. And you are right, this is far above my pay grade.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          This sounds alarming enough that I would keep pushing until you find someone to listen and take this seriously. Grandboss, HR, senior colleague with a lot of clout, security, law enforcement if necessary.

        2. Lucy P*

          I’m sorry that you’ve had to go through this. Been in the same boat and developed thicker skin because of it. I’ve learned to not get upset about these things but still be on the alert. My company also tends to brush off things like this too.
          You should ask your manager if you’re allowed to just hang up on him next time he calls. We had a similar situation recently. Manager didn’t want to take the call and said to hang up each time.

          1. Admiral Thrawn is Still Blue*

            Yes, when they become abusive and foul, we are allowed to disconnect. People who are normal-angry, just ride it out. And they have a right to be heard, just not to be mean.

          2. Former CS*

            In my previous call center job, if you got an upset customer you were allowed to hang up if they became abusive and foul–though we were generally supposed to warn twice before hanging up.

            I did get one call that was actually threatening (customer claimed he had recently gotten out of jail for murder, had our address, and would “get his pound of flesh”) that one my supervisors had me report to the police.

        3. EnfysNest*

          I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with that! Unfortunately, while it could be an empty threat, history tells us it could also be genuine, and you have no way to know that from the outside. So, given that, what action would you like to see from your management as precautions against him (and any other future safety threats)? I think asking for a specific course of action would make it harder for them to ignore. “Do something!” may be harder to respond to than something specific, like: “Can we redirect our cameras to show the front door better so I can see if this person is approaching?” So maybe see what suggestions you could request specific action on that would give you more peace of mind.

          – Could you restrict access to your building so that you would be able to screen people before they could physically reach you?
          – Could you set up extra cameras outside that would give you a view of anyone approaching (if you would know what he looks like)?
          – Do you have a plan for what you would do if he approached – a quick way into a secure area of the building or a way to immediately contact someone else for help if someone in your area became hostile?
          – Do you have an existing security team that could be assigned to stay closer to your area or could someone be hired for security?
          – Could an email be sent to everyone at your location with a picture of this person and instructions on what to do to report if he comes on your site?
          – Do you want your management to request if the police can forbid this person from coming on your property and/or patrol nearby more often?
          – Should everyone at your office receive safety training – both specific to what to do about this person and a more general safety training?

    2. Aphrodite*

      Frankly, I would definitely be “sick” that day. And maybe the next day he’s off too. It’s alarming that your boss doesn’t seem to take the anger and threats seriously. Since they don’t want to, though, let them deal with it, if there is indeed anything to deal with. But keep yourself safe.

    3. Kathenus*

      I see that you did report this to your boss(es) and that they dismissed it. If you haven’t yet, I’d specifically send an email detailing that this person threatened to come in person and that you are concerned about this threat of workplace violence. It’s a lot harder to just dismiss something in writing that explicitly mentions a threat of workplace violence. At least I would hope it would be taken more seriously, even if for only CYA reasons for them and the business. Good luck.

    4. Reba*

      Do you think it would be worthwhile to contact law enforcement (non-emergency line) and get some advice?

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I would, if it were me. Just reading about this kind of thing pings my alarm button. There are so many irrationally angry people with easy access to weapons these days that I’d be considering the distinct possibility that something terrible could happen. The police might be able to give advice or else reasurrance.

        1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

          Our society is definitely a pressure cooker right now. Which is what worries me.

  111. More video dilemmas*

    Several small things happened in the past 2 days, and I am not sure if it is because of the IT mandated tech switch from Zoom to Microsoft teams a couple days ago. My question is would you want to be notified about such a thing or is it too minor?
    Situation 1: I am chairing a meeting and talking through a short powerpoint deck. 5 min into me talking, someone says “oh but all we can see is your outlook calendar which looks very organised! teehee” I had personal stuff on that calendar and didn’t necessarily want everyone to see how I organise my day, and why did it take 5 full minutes for someone to mention that I was not showing the deck? I brought it up with my team afterwards and they brushed it off but I am of the opinion they should have told me earlier.
    Situation 2: On Ms Teams, apparently when you speak, your screen doesn’t show you that you are the speaker, so the screen is still showing the last person who talked. A member of my team briefly turned his video off to use his asthma inhaler a couple times then back on video. The thing is that because he didn’t mute himself, for everyone else in the call, the presenter screen immediately switches to him when he takes the puff, then back to the speaker. Would you mention it? I thought I shouldn’t but then again, he went off camera to be discreet but didn’t realise the screen switches
    Situation 3: A colleague always picks his nose when he starts getting bored (I assume). The first few times, I did not notice until someone mentioned it on private chat. He does not report to me but I’m grossed out … but not sure whether I might be the only one, because others clearly would have noticed and someone would have told him if the general sentiment was that it is too distracting

    What say you?

    1. TiffIf*

      1. Yes someone should have mentioned it earlier, but honestly it isn’t something to really get worked up about, exactly what reaction are you wanting them to have? Next time you do a presentation just verify that everyone can see the title card before you begin.
      2. I think this one might actually be a moment when a general reminder “If you aren’t speaking, please mute your mic” is a good method and if it continues, a private reminder to those particular ones who continue to forget.
      3. Pass it over to whoever he reports to, they can have that talk with him. Most people in these situations are uncomfortable taking the direct route of “dude, don’t pick your nose on camera” so I wouldn’t be surprised if more than just you find it uncomfortable.

      1. KiwiApple*

        Re: point 2 – you can mute all attendees. You can tell them you’re doing that and for them to unmute if they have something to say.

  112. Frustrated HospitalStaffer*

    Thank you everyone who commiserated with me on last weeks post! (Short version: Hospital administrators had cut our pay 80% while acting like their 5-20% cuts made them saints, people were secretly laid off, no one knows the org structure, media was lied to, and we were having regular meetings about “attitude of gratitude”, “don’t buy coffee to safe big!”, and other really out of touch stuff).

    First some good news! I had an interview yesterday!!! It was just a phone interview but I think it went well!

    Now some help – I am exceptionally unmotivated right now. I’m barely working the hours I am scheduled. Usually when I get to this point, I take a vacation, but due to the furlough/pay cuts I can’t afford to do that. Any tips for having OK productivity while your moral is running on empty? I’ve just been beaten with the stick enough that when my bosses are like – why isn’t this done?? – I’m all “Meh”. I just don’t care and I can’t bring myself too.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Congrats on your interview! I hope it goes well and you have a new job soon!

      Can you do a staycation? I’m not sure if you can’t afford to take time off or if you can’t afford to take a trip, so if it’s the former my apologies! Staycations can be great – you can finally work on that craft or home project you’ve been meaning to try, read that book or binge that series, or honestly, sometimes it’s nice to just sit around and do absolutely nothing for a few days. Sure, it’s not the same as going to a fun place, but there’s zero planning, zero travel, and zero cost – and it honestly sounds like you could use a few days of doing nothing to refresh and recharge. And if you can’t take a full week off, can you try and take an extra day at least? Perhaps a sick day? I don’t know your finances or if you don’t get paid time off so again, apologies if this isn’t possible.

      If you truly can’t get away for a little bit, I’d try and focus your energy on getting out. Realize that your current situation isn’t permanent, and you’re actively working to change it. Sometimes knowing you only have to put up with something temporarily helps you get through it. And really focus on taking care of yourself in your off-hours.

      I’m so sorry this is happening, I hope you have a new job soon!

    2. Eng*

      I’ve found that having A Plan for moving on was really freeing and let me be more productive at work, because I was less worried about the long-term effects of things. Not saying do a bad job on purpose, but it helped me avoid stress when things would clearly cause issues down the road because, whatever, I won’t be here down the road either. Also, I stopped feeling “what’s the point of doing a good when nothing will change” because now I have a plan and I know things will change, so I just need to be productive long enough to get a job elsewhere while maintaining a good reputation at the current job.

  113. 867-5309*

    A little late to this today but…

    We’re in the fortunate position to be hiring for several positions and I’m wondering if others in the same boat feel guilty when they reject candidates? I know it must be done and we’re as sensitive and timely as possible, but it’s so awful out there that my heart breaks for candidates’ disappointment and frustration.

    1. Interviewer*

      I gave feedback to a rejected candidate today and he started talking about general anxiety and how tough it is and that he will have such a massive loan when he graduates. It was heart breaking

      1. 867-5309*

        If I know of other places that are hiring for roles more aligned with their background, I’ve started mention that or letting them know if we might have something coming up that is a better fit. Not in all cases but where it’s appropriate.

        It is heartbreaking.

        Doubly so because the candidate pool is so strong that we are turning down candidates who might have previously made it through.

  114. Littorally*

    I just joined a new team (hurrah! new job, higher pay, more responsibilities!) and have discovered that one of the other people on the team is an inveterate talker. Right now it’s all over voice, of course, but it doesn’t matter whether it’s one-on-one or team settings, he always has to have his say and he’s extremely repetitive in how he talks. Plus, he has So! Many! Opinions! and he’s extremely certain that we need to know all of them.

    He’s got loads of tenure in the role and I’m a newbie, so I don’t imagine I can do much besides look for opportunities to cut short the chatter, but he’s already driving me nuts and I’ve barely been here two weeks. Not looking forward to going back to the office and dealing with him face to face.

  115. Majestic Space Whale*

    I have only a good thing to share today: despite the current crapfest happening, I have found a new, hopefully better job and will leave the toxic wasteland I have been working at for the past seven months at as of June 1st. Yay!

  116. Stressed & Scared*

    I’m absolutely gobsmacked: my job just put out a notice to employees that managers will be tallying “unforced errors” & each person will be REQUIRED TO WORK UNPAID to make up for it. As you can imagine, there is no HR here.

    I don’t want to give away my location, but I think there’s a thread or post around that has resources for labor violations? I’m not sure if it was in a more recent Covid-related one or what. I’m just stressed & scared.

    1. Reba*

      Are you in the US? Your state’s department of Labor website could be a good place to start — look for “Wage and Hour” rules or “Employment standards.” You could try the Alison approach of sharing the law with your employer and saying “I’m sure that company would want to do things according to the rules, so I wanted to point this out to you and seek clarification.” But that’s only if your boss is reasonable!

      A local journalist might also be interested in this. They would be able to keep you anonymous (although that doesn’t mean your company wouldn’t try to hunt down the source).

      UGH. So sorry.

    2. 867-5309*

      They cannot do that – it is illegal. You must be paid for the work you do.

      I can’t find the exact post but search for labor violations and your state name, and hopefully it will pop up. Additionally, the National Labor Relations Board.

      2. Natalie*

        This would be a Fair Labor Standards Act violation, so under the purview of Department of Labor. (NLRB enforces the National Labor Relations Act.) And it sounds like they were foolish enough to put it in writing, so that make DOL’s job a helluva lot easier!

    3. LQ*

      If they are hourly this is very illegal. Check your state’s department of labor, attorney general, and do a search for your state and “wage theft” which is a term that’s been used frequently in some states.

    4. Rebecca*

      This is totally out of line and not legal. Keep the notice; I suspect your state’s labor board would love to review it.

  117. Lucy P*

    At the last minute, company decided to push the reopening back by 2 weeks. Not complaining and enjoying the reprieve.

    In the meantime, the boss keeps asking me to do recruitment work from home. The company wants to hire someone with a certain skill set that isn’t often used anymore (think VHS tape maker). The job description I was given was so vague that I wouldn’t find it very enticing if I were applying. It’s like saying the title is Office Worker and the job description is “need person to work in the office”. I’m having a hard time finding anyone capable, much less local. The work has to be done if the office since the company is concerned about trade secrets running out the door.

    1. WellRed*

      Can you ask the company if you can help tweak the job description and explain that would help attract candidates?

  118. Tableau Wizard*

    Anyone have advice on how to navigate having a boss on an unexpected, extended medical leave of absence? My boss has been out since early March, and it’s been weird trying to navigate all the associated changes with a work from home mandate coupled with reporting to her boss (COO) and not having her leadership.

    We know enough to know that she may not be physically able to return, but I don’t know how/when those determinations are made. Like when does long term planning kick back in when you’ve got a Director who’s out (presumably on FMLA)?
    It just feels like our department’s progress on our overall strategy has stalled and we’re in this weird limbo.

  119. Trixie*

    My last day at current is coming up next week. Just learned today my organization does not pay out PTO balance except for retirement. I asked my team lead if there was any way to schedule vacation for those hours but I am not optimistic. I had no idea and wish I had checked on this. Not the end of the world but grrr.

  120. Overworked*

    I’m wondering if people can give some advice-ever since COVID hit, my priorities have shifted away from work and more towards making sure my family is safe and taken care of. I don’t have children myself but I have parents in the area who are high risk and my main concern is making sure they are safe and that their needs are taken care of. My manager’s approach to dealing with the pandemic is to work 14 hours a day, and she is pressuring me to get more work done than usual, at a time where mentally and logistically I can barely keep up with what I was doing before (previously I’ve been one of the top performers on the team). Has anyone had experience with dealing with this during the pandemic?

    1. Fikly*

      If you can have a conversation like this with your manager, I would start by asking her why the work needs to get done now. Is there a legit need? If so, how long will this be the case, because this isn’t sustainable in any situation, nevermind a pandemic?

  121. Quest*

    Has anyone worked for a company that is predominantly based in Europe while living in the US? Tips/considerations? Cultural differences? Business philosophy differences?

    DH was approached about taking a role where he would be one of ~10 US based employees while the remaining 150 or so are in Europe. Company is HQ’d in Germany,
    If it matters. It’s hard to get a true look at company culture because the whole process has been remote- and would have otherwise been a few days in the office in Germany.

    He would be building out an entirely department and he’d have a team of global employees but many of the new hires would be US based as that’s where the company is seeing growth.

    The one thing we’ve noticed so far is when he let them know he could start in late June at the earliest, they laughed and said 3 months was standard in Europe. They already have the US benefits worked out (healthcare, retirement)

    1. No Tribble At All*

      I work for a European company in the USA! (Not Germany, though). Honestly the biggest thing that affects me is when they go on their long vacations and I don’t see my coworkers for a month. Also, almost everyone takes vacation in August. It’s time for Holidays. I don’t know why. (I do get close to European levels of vacation though, so hopefully that applies to your hubs too?)

      In many ways they’re better about work life balance. I know many, many colleagues who have taken multiple weeks of paternity leave, or who have 1 day a week off for a year after their kid was born. That may be country-mandated, though, and won’t necessairily apply to the USA, but people understand that you need to look after your family.

      They’ll put a bunch of extra letters in the words, or use the wrong (British) spelling. You won’t recognise this after a while.

      Also, make sure dates are written YYYY-MM-DD or with the actual name of the month so you know for sure if something happens 2-January or 1-February.

      1. Quest*

        Perfect, we always take a few weeks vacation in August ;). He’d be a SVP/VP type level so I assume vacation is decent.

        1. allathian*

          In many parts of Europe, 4 weeks vacation is standard even for entry-level employees, as long as they are not on a fixed-term contract.
          And written employment contracts are pretty much mandatory. At-will firing doesn’t really exist. Collective agreements negotiated by unions apply even to non-unionized employees…

    2. Emma*

      One thought that may (or may not) be useful if he does take it. German office culture can be a bit more formal than in many English speaking countries. When working in German, people will often use the formal “you” and use surnames until invited to do otherwise with senior team members. When communicating in English, Germans are more likely to use first names from the start (not always) but still tend to be more formal (eg emails to colleagues beginning “Dear First Name”, not “Hi”, etc).
      I would err toward being a bit more formal with the German office until he has a sense of the office culture.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, and what’s more, they can switch. Employees on formal terms with each other can use first names when speaking in English in a conference call with international teammates, but revert to surnames and honorifics in German, often with a sigh of relief. Titles, specifically academic ones, are also a big deal in many organizations.

  122. Bébé*

    I think I’m putting the cart before the horse with my irritation here, but I’m trying to be prepared for all scenarios. I’m currently WFH and have been since 3/13. I live in Michigan, currently our stay at home order is expected to expire end of May. My company is the headquarters of an essential business, and nearly everyone has been working from home. Most of our management is the typical white conservative guy, and the sense we’ve all gotten from our CEO is that this is overblown and we need to get back to work..they mean back in the office. I just heard that there was a managers conf call today from a friend who spoke with their manager, and apparently in June they were going to require people to come back to work and only WFH 2 days a week at most. This may change, as no official directive has been released and likely won’t be until we know what happens with our governor’s order.

    My personal manager is a pretty easy going guy, pre-COVID he had no issue with me WFH once a week (our company culture is archaic when it comes to tech so he’s balancing that with my need to not drive to the annoying office 5 days a week). Just yesterday he indicated that we’d all be at home for a while longer, while I really can’t see him personally driving the ‘come back to the office’ bus, he may be forced on it by upper management. If that is the way they end up going, I’d like to push back but I don’t know how. I don’t think it’s smart to have the whole company rotating days in the office/at home, I personally think people who are comfortable going in should be able to, and others can stay home, that reduces the pool of people one may interact with and keeps me safer. Oooo also I’m currently immunocompromised due to a medication I’m on, but that’s a hard muscle for me to flex because I’m a healthy looking 30 something woman and I don’t even personally feel like a sickly weakling right now, but it’s technically true.

    Thoughts? Advice? Want to commiserate and complain together? Cheers!

    1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      That sucks SO HARD. Ca you pull the “immunocompromised relative” card? Or get together with other co-workers and push back together?

    2. cmcinnyc*

      That is NOT a hard muscle to flex–because actual accommodations are not about “flex.” (In the usage here) You contact HR and say “I need a medical accommodation (temporarily, forever, until X date). Can you tell me what paperwork I/my doctor need to fill out for you?” HR should provide specific guidance. It’s not about “you look young and healthy to me!” And it’s not about “I feel fine.” You can say “I feel fine but my doctor assures me that I will be more prone to catching viruses/whatever if I am in X situation. She says I feel fine because I’m at home taking care of myself.” Or some such. If you feel you must. But you don’t need to back up your claim by looking/feeling/sounding terrible. You are not faking sick in 2nd grade!

    3. Gatomon*

      My company is about to implement a similar plan (we’re reopening sooner and didn’t suffer as much as MI). I’m not thrilled, even as a low-risk employee. We do have exceptions for those at high risk, so those people are not coming back to the office yet. If you’re high risk, you’re high risk. Please don’t risk your life.

  123. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    Been waiting all week to vent about this petty-ass thing, so here it is: My (female) boss calls me and two of my colleagues “girls”. I’m nearly 40 years old! “GIRL”?? For the love of Maud! (English is her second language and this is not the hill I plan to die on with her, as she has about a zillion other communication issues – typos abound in client emails, complaining constantly without providing solutions or wanting to hear them, passive aggression up the wazoo – but I tell ya, it grates on my like no one’s business.

    1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      “grates on me” – I would have a typo in a bitchy comment about typos!

    2. Quest*

      Oh I hate that. I hate it so much. Though I suppose it’s better than a man I worked with who would suggest “the girls” do something.

      1. Fikly*

        I think it’s sadder when a person who is discrimminated against uses derogatory terms against their own group because they’ve been so brainwashed by society to internalize it.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Given that English is her second language, I think you could politely tell her that using the term in that way is actually considered insulting in the U.S. This isn’t the same everywhere, and she may not know. You could tell her that you don’t want her to inadvertently insult a client

      1. Nicki Name*

        This! I’ve had quite a few co-workers who originally learned British English, then came to the US and had to learn a whole bunch of new regionalisms.

      2. HR Exec Popping In*

        Yes, pull her aside and let her know how calling adult women “girls” can be seen as demeaning. Do it assuming she has no ill intent. In other words, give her grace and provide her with the gift of feedback on this as you will be helping her.

  124. General Organa*

    This is a long shot, but are there any litigators here who have transitioned to policy counsel-type roles, and if so 1) how have you found it and 2) what would you suggest highlighting in application materials? Thanks!

  125. Stevonnie*

    Hi y’all! I am trying to get more comfortable with not having the answer all the time, especially in a new role where I’m in a leadership position. I’m told no one has the right answer all the time, and I’m getting better at “Well, I’m not entirely sure, but let me look into that more and get back to you.” But there are times where I feel like I’m doing that too much.

    My boss is SO good at being comfortable with not having the answer, but instead she turns it back on the client and asks them probing questions or questions that try and get them to answer it themselves (i.e., these things are only answerable by you, we can’t tell you what to do.)

    I’m trying to take notes and copy her style, but how do I get better at doing this? Helping folks brainstorm, asking them the right questions to get them to think for what works best for them? I don’t know how to better describe it, but any advice would be helpful!

    1. Amy Sly*

      Well, you’re in a new role, so people understand if you have gaps in your knowledge. Are these questions you can’t answer coming from in-house or outside? People in-house will be much more forgiving with “let me find outs.” When dealing with those outside, try to bone up on your company’s procedures and find out what y’all need from the customer. If need be, go to your reports who are doing the grunt work and ask them what they need to know from the customer to do their job.

      Unfortunately, a lot of this is just practicing. Ask your boss for advice on how she does it, and when you start to get a handle on things, ask her to be your backup while you take the lead in these meetings.

    2. Fikly*

      Personally, I care way more about knowing where to find the answer, than knowing it off the top of my head.

      Think of it this way: you have a limited amount of knowledge you can retain. Knowing how to look something up is one piece of knowledge, but it can generally lead to you finding out many pieces of needed info. It’s vastly more efficient.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      I am assuming these aren’t situations where there is an obvious right answer (i.e., what is 7+3) but more of what is the best answer given a particular situation (i.e., how can we stop the llamas from eating all the grass). If that is the case, I would start by asking them what they have tried already and what they are currently considering as a solution. Additionally, I would ask them to outline the pros and cons for their ideas. I would treat it like a conversation where the two of you are trying to develop the answer vs. you having the answer.

    4. Grapey*

      As long as you actually and usefully get back to the person, I don’t see a problem. I DO have problems with leadership when I get fed that line and don’t hear back.

      A similar answer would be to direct the person to whatever resource YOU would use to “look into that more”. e.g. “MaryAnne from HR would know more about that – reach out to her?” or “We listed those specs in the XYZ doc” Leadership is about delegating and empowering others to find answers as much as it is having them.

      If they’re waiting on a DECISION or ADVICE from you though, that’s not information you can help someone find. I’m not clear from your question what kinds of things you’re being asked.

  126. Alisha*

    I’m being laid off from my job at a nonprofit where I’ve worked for 15 years (we’ve been acquired by another company who doesn’t want the staff). I’ve been running operations for the last year. I’ve been asked to say what I think a fair severance would be. Can anyone offer details or experience with this? What is fair/common? Thank you so much.

    1. Quest*

      One week per year of service. Maybe cap it if there are lots of long term employees.

      At my old (privately held for-profit) our policy was:
      Above VP: 18 months
      VP- 12 months
      AVP- 9 months
      Director- 6 months
      Manager- 3 months
      Below manager- 2-6 weeks (sort of depended
      on if it was a big RIF or individuals).

      It should be noted though that at this company, there was no vacation pay-out as you may typically see. It was technically “unlimited” so there were no PTO banks. That is part of the more generous severence.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      This varies greatly. For a non-profit, I would expect 1-2 weeks of severance per year with a min amount and a cap. If you can get it in salary continuation (i.e. stay on payroll with benefits) that would be the best. If not, ask for money to cover your cobra premiums so that you have access to healthcare for the duration of your severance period. In other words, if you get 30 weeks of severance pay ask for 7 months of cobra premiums. Other things to ask about include outplacement services and if you are bonus eligible try to get a prorated in lieu of bonus payment for the portion of the year that you worked.

      1. Alisha*

        This is very helpful, thank you. I’m trying to figure out if cobra is even an option when the company gets absorbed by another company but the idea of adding a separate payment to cover healthcare is great. Do you think it’s fair to factor in world circumstances? The lay off has nothing to due with the pandemic, but the timing makes it much harder to find a new job.

  127. Unfair Trivia*

    My boyfriend’s company has a virtual trivia game. You log in to the call, they ask a question, and you type the answer in a private chat to a designated person. It should be super fun. But they only give points to the first 5 people who answer correctly. So a person could know the answer to every single question and still have a score of 0. I’m so annoyed!!! What if somebody has a physical issue that makes them a slower typist?? What about the several people who play who speak English as a second language?? (This includes my bf)

    There’s obviously nothing for me to do since I don’t work there and I’m not involved in this trivia. I guess I just hope I’ll notice this sort of thing if it happens where I work.

    2. Quest*

      I bet they are doing it to discourage/prevent cheating. Presumably if you get it fast you didn’t have to look it up.

      What are some ideas to make it more inclusive?

      1. Unfair Trivia*

        I think they could have a time limit and give a point to everyone who answers it by then. It’d probably even be easier to keep score that way.

    3. Fikly*

      What do the points get you?

      I can’t speak to the English as a second language issue, but for people who are slow typers, there’s a lot of dictation software that gets around this these days, and if it’s such a big issue for them, and their job involves typing, they should be using it already.

      1. Yorick*

        The winner gets a $50 gift card. It’s a weekly trivia so the same couple of White guys get extra money every week.

        2. Avasarala*

          I think you could bring up the language barrier as being something deserving of a “handicap”. (I’m picturing like weights added in horseracing.) Downside is now you’re saying “I don’t speak English that quickly” and this can actually work against you as a non-native speaker (or if you’re just prideful like I am).

          Even without the language issue it sucks if the same people win every week. Just ends up being a bonus for them.

          I think you could suggest mixing the themes around more (ask questions those white boys may not know much about), and changing how winners are picked. Maybe everyone who answers within 5 min gets their name thrown into a pool and the top 5 winners are randomly picked from that? That way everyone feels like they got a chance.

      2. Unfair Trivia*

        Sure, some people may have accommodations in place, but Jane whose recovering carpal tunnel or whatever makes her slow enough to always be the 6th one probably doesn’t need it for her actual job.

  128. Sad Tour Guide*

    Feeling some feelings, and would just like some reassurance!

    I’m a tour guide for my school — since we’ve been online, we (the tour guides) have been producing short videos talking about student life and academics at our school and posting them in the Facebook group. There are ~10 guides, and I’ve posted about six or seven videos, which is slightly above average.

    The admissions department recently cut together some footage from those videos for a promotional thing and… I was the only tour guide not featured. I’m trying really hard not to take it personally — maybe I just didn’t have the right soundbite they were looking for, maybe they had too much representation from my major already, maybe, maybe, maybe — but this feels like a rejection! It feels bad!
    To make manners worse, this has happened before, albeit not as bad. They asked several students to send in short clips welcoming new students, and while I was one of the first people they asked, I wasn’t in the final cut. But other people who had sent clips in also weren’t featured, so I didn’t feel as bad.

    But this… sucks. Should I ask the admissions office if there was a reason I wasn’t in the video? The logical side of me says “nothing they say will make you feel better” and the insecure side of me says “make them say you’re too ugly to represent your school publicly!” If there’s something I’m doing wrong in a professional context (like if I’m not hitting points they want me to hit, video quality isn’t good enough, etc.) then I’d like to know, but I’m afraid I’ll come off as exactly what I am, which is insecure and needy. I shouldn’t ask, right?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Ugh, this does suck and would stress me out, but I think it probably sucks by accident or coincidence. As you point out, there are all kinds of boring and benign reasons this could have happened. I know it’s hard to listen to your logic brain like that.

      I do think you could reach out to the admissions office and ask. I would draft an email and then wait a little while to send it, and focus on those professional points that you can improve. “As we continue to provide virtual tours, I wanted make sure that my videos are the best quality to represent this school. Is there anything I should be focusing on going forward?”

      1. Rex Manning*

        I work in marketing for higher ed, and I definitely agree with this. A lot of times when we create a student-facing or public-facing video, we have to exclude submissions for any number of reasons. Sometimes they just aren’t on the mark, sometimes the content doesn’t fit, and sometimes it just comes down to the quality of the video. And by quality I mean anything–it can be poor resolution, distorted or weird audio, physical appearance, etc etc. Sometimes it’s also duplicate content, and we just have to choose the best of the bunch to use instead of featuring all of them. I would suggest finding someone close you can reach out to to discuss it (maybe a boss or a mentor in the admissions office?), but make sure you frame it more as “Hey, I know I’ve created some videos for these projects in the past but didn’t get featured, is there anything I can do to improve?” so it’s more of a how you can do better-type situation, rather than a more emotional question like “Why didn’t you pick me??”

        It definitely doesn’t hurt to ask, and if this is something that you genuinely want to get better and participate in, it can only help! Good luck.

        1. Sad Tour Guide*

          Thank you to all three of you (including CM below)! I posted this right after I saw the video and with the benefit of a few hours’ distance, I’m not nearly as upset.
          Rex, you hit on the nerve of the problem when you suggested I reach out to a boss or a mentor. I’m in my third year at school, and a few months ago the admissions department had a complete turnover. I was very close with the previous staff and heavily involved in a lot of events and promotion; I haven’t had the chance to get to know any of the new staff, and they don’t seem interested in relying so heavily on tour guides for responsibilities outside the official job description. Which is totally understandable, and it’s probably a good thing in the long run. But I liked doing those things like running parts of Admitted Students Day and covering the front desk, so losing both the previous staff and the more fun events (plus the extra income) has made me feel very sad and disappointed. It kind of feels like being a stepchild whose stepparent is juuuust fine. Not bad at all, but also not the parental figure you’re looking for.

          So I think my feelings about this situation are pretty much personal and not professional. I was thinking about quitting being a tour guide anyway (I no longer feel… super great about my school) so this distancing might make it a little more bearable to leave.

          Again, thanks to all of you who replied! Your questions and advice were great for forcing me to inspect my feelings.

    2. CM*

      Don’t ask why you weren’t in it. You don’t want to come off as insecure and needy, and you also don’t want to come off as critical or complaining. But say, “I would have loved to be in the video!” and then propose something you’d like instead — like “Is there anything I can do differently to get into the next one?” or “I’m really interested in welcoming new students, could I do a video / blog post / whatever?” You’re enthusiastic about exactly the thing that they want — promoting the school — so it’s in both your and the admissions office’s interest for you to get more involved.

      If you can identify why you want to be in the video — for instance, is it because you aspire to an on-camera career, because you’re super-invested in being welcoming to new students, because you love the school so much and want to share that love — that could help you figure out what to propose, and it would also be great to communicate your specific reason to the admissions office so they can give you opportunities in that area.

  129. Rex Manning*

    Hopefully this isn’t too late to get some feedback–I’ve recently won some awards and I’m curious about how to/if they would be appropriate to include on my resume. I work in digital marketing in higher ed, for reference.

    First: My team won roughly 16 industry awards with a local ad federation earlier this year. Two of those awards were things I was directly involved with. One was what I would consider to be creative direction for a video… While I didn’t physically put together the video, I did work directly with our videographer to design and edit the video in a very specific way. I know that if I hadn’t been the one to come up with the idea/advocate for it, the video wouldn’t have been made. What’s the best way to include or describe this, especially since I didn’t *actually* create the video? Another submission, which was a physical promotion piece, won a silver award. Again, I didn’t design it, but I did work with vendors and push for the physical creation of the physical result.

    Second: I won an university-wide award for my work inside/out of the community. This is mostly related to promotion and awareness of the university/our brand, but came down to my role during the initial wave of COVID announcements and my work directly with students through our social media. Since this is organization-specific, is it still appropriate to include? And if so, would it be appropriate to include a description of the award since the name is university-specific and not easily understandable to those outside of our organization?

    Thanks, all.

    1. Yorick*

      A CV will have a section for awards. I assume a resume could too. If you won as part of a team at work, you could put it as an accomplishment under that job?

  130. Lady Farquaad*

    Does anyone ever hear their friends complain of their work/boss and think…maybe the problem is you? I have a friend who constantly has issues with her various employers. Her current manager is apparently the devil reincarnated who gives her grief about taking time off to visit her sick dad and sick leave for her own health problems. While this situation genuinely sucks, I can also see why her manager won’t be accommodating someone who is very frequently absent from work, regardless of reason.

    Also, a coworker from my old job complained about being pushed out because the manager “Drew” hates her. I had a good experience with Drew so I can’t help but wonder if her exit was really that unjustified? I know there are lots of terrible bosses out there but, unless you’re dealing with a psychopath, a normal manager won’t randomly pick on an innocent employee to make them miserable.

    1. Fikly*

      I heard a great line once about how if you go about your day, and you run into one asshole, the asshole is likely them. If you go about your day, and everyone you run into is an asshole, the asshole is probably you.

      So to look at your two examples, person one is probably the problem. Person two is probably not – it’s super common for someone to be abusive/terrible to one person, but nice to everyone else, and then when their victim is no longer available, they move on to a new one, but are still nice to everyone else.

      1. Lady Farquaad*

        I’m sure isolating one person to pick on is an abuse tactic but there’s nothing to suggest that’s the case here. It’s far fetched to see one person having a bad experience and deciding that’s abuse and bullying. It’s also super common for reasonable managers to not want to work with a poor performer.

        1. Fikly*

          It doesn’t sound like you really understand what abuse and bullying is. It’s not defined by how often it happens, or something like that. It’s the behavior itself that defines whether it meets that standard.

          Regardless of whether a person is a poor performer or not, it’s on the manager to behave professionally. A manager deciding they just don’t want to work with a poor performer, but not firing them, is extremely unprofessional – their job is literally to work with, and manage, the employees they manage.

          Given you think it’s reasonable for managers to not want to work with poor performers, I strongly suspect your workplace norms are very messed up, and you think abusive things are normal.

    2. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Yes, this is my brother! He rarely keeps a job for longer than 6 – 9 months because every boss he works for is an idiot with no idea how to do their job and they refuse to step aside and let my brother manage the business. After landing a cushy government gig, he wound up demanding the manager fire a coworker with 15+ years seniority because my brother couldn’t stand that coworker. When the manager refused, my brother issued the ultimatum of ‘It’s him or me!’ The manager again refused to fire the coworker. So my brother quit on the spot and stormed out.

      I’ve heard a lot of his quitting stories and they always pretty much end with ‘so I quit on the spot because they don’t appreciate how great I am!’

      This is a cycle which has repeated for the last couple of decades, so I don’t see him ever getting the point.

    3. LGC*

      I’ve had it on both sides.

      My best friend consistently had Problems with his jobs. Like, he’d find a new job, tell me it was the best thing ever and his dream job and he was excited about it, and then inevitably a few months later he was either on the verge of being fired or frustrated about not advancing and looking for a new job. I’ve gently hinted that he won’t solve his problems by constantly looking for new jobs at the first sign of trouble, mostly because he’s pretty sensitive about things and I don’t think being blunt with him would help.

      (Also, there was a period a few years back where I ended up as his boss. I’m still recovering from that.)

      Speaking of me, I don’t even talk about my job with my friends anymore because I feel like I’ve made it toxic to talk about it with them. Like, yes, I sometimes do dream about flouncing out, but also my rent isn’t going to pay itself.

      With your friends: I kind of side with both of them in a vacuum, but also they sound exhausting. Notoriously, bad bosses aren’t bad to everyone (to just go there, although I don’t think Drew is anywhere near that level – Harvey Weinstein was a respected film producer). Legally, your friend is entitled to time off for being sick (and in some states, for – yeah – seeing her sick dad). But also, like…if the first one has issues with all of their bosses, what’s the common thread? I’d probably be even less charitable in that case.

    4. Avasarala*

      Even people who don’t constantly complain, sometimes I hear a friend complain and think, “Oh, that sounds like a you problem…” But my job as a friend is to listen so I nod and smile.

  131. Chronic Overthinker*

    How’s it going for my non-essential, essential workers? You know, receptionists, admins, my folks who deal with the public via phone, sort and distribute incoming/outgoing mail and keep your offices running? How you doing? Has your workload increased/decreased? Has your stress increased/decreased? Are you managing okay? I definitely have noticed an uptick of workload simply because I am in the office and am available to do things that remote workers aren’t. I really feel like this is going to bode well for my next review! I wonder if I can get promoted to the next level because of all of this? Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking. Thoughts?

    1. Neosmom*

      Fortunately, although I work in an essential industry, we two admins were able to convince the management team the company can survive with us working from home and each of us coming into the office for a full day once per week. I find I am just as efficient as I am at my regular workstation – except for the occasional on-site printing need.

      When at the office, I sit in an open reception area and I wear a mask all of the time (with the exception of when I am eating). It is extremely frustrating to have co-workers at all levels sail through my work area unmasked or with their masks just covering their mouths. The company president says those of us who are only there one day a week have no idea how difficult it is to wear a mask all day.

      Grrrrrrr. I know precisely how difficult that is and do so willingly. It is my responsibility to endure a bit of discomfort to ensure the safety of my co-workers, our customers, and my family.

      Otherwise, I’m pretty good.

    2. LGC*

      The industry I work in…I wouldn’t consider it essential, but it is working with state documents, so somehow the state overrode its own SAH. (Which caused a lot of confusion.)

      I’ve been lucky enough to be able to work from home full-time during the peak of our pandemic, and now I’m working from home three days a week. My primary job is supervisor, although I wear a ton of hats and most of those hats can be worn OOO. Right now, I’m cramming in what I normally do over a week at work into two days.

      Probably the most stressful thing is that just before this hit, my long-time partner got transferred out of our department. We have another person filling in as the on-site supervisor, but she…has problems with figuring out basic stuff, even after I’ve provided instruction. So it’s been a tango of me trying not to say, “YOU’RE TEARING ME APART, LISA OH NO BABY WHAT IS YOU DOIN” all the time and putting out various little fires and doing some problem solving.

      I’ve tried to relax with the mask situation a little bit, just because people don’t work closely with others. I’m a little disappointed that some of them don’t wear masks all day (I do unless I’m eating, and when I’m eating I’ll usually go in a room by myself – I did this pre-plague anyway because it’s the only way I get any peace and quiet), but the social distancing in-office is good enough right now that there’s not that much of a need.

  132. Narvo Flieboppen*

    Hello, AAM friends. I hope you’re all staying safe & healthy!

    On the bright side, while my workplace is shut down, I still have a job and I am working full time from home. On the downside, I’ve only got about 20% of my normal workload. Other people in the company being allowed to work until work is done then logging out (while still getting paid for full time hours – this was my company’s decision for managing shut down and it’s kind of amazing for a lot of folks.) However, boss & grand-boss overruled that decision for several of us on my team. Myself and the other 2 most senior coworkers. I’m supposed to show 40 hours of productivity when I have like 12 – 16 hours of work coming in. Also, all of my projects have been put on hold for various reasons. Boss learned I was proceeding with work on project #1 when I had nothing else do and actually locked down the files so I can’t touch it. This might make sense, except that project #1 is a guide for the disparate areas of my job so if I leave, get hit by a bus, get COVID, etc. there will be instructions and reference materials for other staff who are covering what I do. This seems like a perfect time for such a project, but I am locked out of the 89+ pages of documentation which was already in place. So I can start over, or wait for him to come to his senses.

    In the meantime, I have very little else to do on a day-to-day basis, and staring at my inbox while hitting refresh in the hopes something useful will come up is damned depressing for 24+ work hours per week. I’ve tried directly addressing this with boss, but he shuts down the conversation every time I bring it up. During the last staff meeting he yelled (literally!) at me for offering my time to assist the rest of the team if they need it. I need to ‘focus’ on my own work and stay on top of it.

    It’s like, dude, I did my work by 10:00 AM. It’s now 1:30 PM and I anticipate just about nothing coming in before 5:00 PM. So, why are you forcing me to stay logged in while locking down actually useful work I can do?

    I also contacted grand-boss to discuss the issue but he declined the meeting and has not responded to my emails for nearly a full week. I know he’s working because he has sent me tasks and documentation.

    I kind of feel like they’re shooting for constructive dismissal, but I’ve built a massive email trail (forwarded copies of everything to my personal email as I wrote this) to prove I was raising the issue and trying to get guidance or resolve the ‘Narvo is sitting around doing nothing for hours at a time since early April’ problem.

    On the other hand, I spent yesterday afternoon streaming movies on Netflix while occasionally glancing at my work email because at least that wasn’t completely depressing like the last several weeks have been.

    Another fun little situation:

    Our llama accessories department is pretty terrible about processing invoices in a timely fashion. Often turning them in a couple weeks after they arrive. This often leads to late payments, since I am not equipped with a teleporter and/or time travel technology.

    I had an invoice come up to me at the start of the last week in April. A March dated invoice, which was due on April 2nd. Getting it just before April 30th makes it really hard to pay it on time. Later the same day, I was CC’d on an email from the vendor (sent to the manager of the llama accessories dept) specifying “Narvo is really hard to deal with and clearly doesn’t respect due dates. I don’t want him working on our invoices anymore. Please put me in touch with his manager so I can speak to them about Narvo’s failures.” This was a reply to an email from in which she told the vendor “Narvo just doesn’t want to pay you on time. There’s nothing I can do because we got your invoice on March 10th and Narvo is just holding it up since then.” You know the phrase ‘seeing red’? Yeah, that was me in that exact moment.

    I forwarded the thread to the llama accessories manager, CC’ing my boss and the two staff from the llama accessories department whose credentials were in our system on the receiving and payment documentation with the following:

    Dear llama accessories manager,

    I absolutely appreciate how upsetting it is for vendors to be paid weeks or longer after their due dates. I don’t purposely drag out payments just to make things difficult on them.

    In this particular instance, while the invoice was dated 3/3/20 and the llama accessories receiving system shows the product was physically received on 3/10/20, did not push the invoice over to me as fully received and approved for payment until this morning. It is not possible for me to pay the vendor on time when the invoice is released for payment by the llama accessories team 27 days after the due date.

    Thank you,

    Narvo

    The manager of llama accessories did send me an apology in writing for what her staff said and promised to address the issue with the vendor.

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      This situation sounds terrible. Are you looking elsewhere? Because it sounds like you work with a bunch of jerks who are trying to push you out.

  133. Remote*

    My company asked us to take laptops and work from home due to coronavirus, which I’ve been doing for a couple of months. Was laid off due to budget cuts, and company emailed legal letter they want me to sign, saying I will return all company equipment in good condition within a specified number of days, or I will be subject to legal action. Obviously they should have had me (everyone) sign this before taking our laptops home, but why would I sign it after being laid off? There is no severance or any other type of compensation involved. Can I just ignore this letter? If they send me a box, I’ll send the computer back, but I don’t see any reason to take on legal liability. Am I missing something?

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Well, you acknowledge it is their equipment. They gave it to you to keep you working, now you’re not working for them, so you have to return their property. This is the case whether you sign the letter or not, because in the case of keeping something which doesn’t belong to you, you automatically take on the legal liability of committing theft.

      In the rush to get folks home and safe, I can see how they missed what should have been a ‘before you take this equipment home’ checkbox like having you sign the agreement then. But that means they prioritized the safety of you and everyone around you in an emergency. It’s hard to take umbrage with this, from an outsider perspective, though I’m sure you’ve got some strong feelings about the people who just laid you off. And rightfully so! It’s a crappy situation all around.

      You say you’re willing to return the equipment, so sign the letter, and return it. If you want to take the stance of ‘they need to send me packing materials and a box for it’, I think you’re fine there. But you should communicate that to them ASAP so they have time to do so before whatever X date would be the cutoff in their letter.

      My 2 cents, for whatever it is worth.

      1. Remote*

        Thanks for your reply. I never said I wasn’t returning the computer. I will return it as soon as they send me a box and it’s safe to go to FedEx. I just don’t see why I would sign a letter saying I am legally responsible for seeing that the computer gets back to them in good condition (it specifically mentions legal action). I don’t really want to go to FedEx when my city is under a shutdown order, and I am not a shipping operation. They should ideally just send a box with the appropriate padding. My question isn’t about returning the computer, it’s about why I would sign a letter with no benefit to me.

      2. Flyleaf*

        I disagree. Do not sign anything. There is no benefit to you. Instead, send them an email and let them know that they can pick up the laptop at your house/apartment — all they need to do is let you know whey they will be there. Then leave the laptop outside for them to pick up. You do not need to put yourself at risk by engaging with them or anyone from Fedex.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m with you. If you’re sending it back in good condition and trying to not be a jerk, I don’t really see any added advantage to signing this after the fact, so they have one more weapon to use against you should they bring legal action? They could bring legal action either way. You signing that makes it worse, if they somehow determine the equipment isn’t in “good condition” or they claim it didn’t get there within X number of days.

    3. Emma*

      I wouldn’t sign it and don’t see how they could make you. Not a lawyer so not giving legal advice but it sounds like they are asking you to sign up to some new legal liability- what if something happens to it in transit through no fault of yours, are you agreeing to pay for that? I think you should just agree to some reasonable arrangement for returning it quickly.

      1. Remote*

        That’s what I was thinking – how do I know FedEx won’t drop the box on the sidewalk and damage the computer? They should just send me a box and buy insurance, not ask me to take on the shipping liability. Since they aren’t paying severance, I was wondering if there’s any other penalty for not signing this letter, but it doesn’t sound like it.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      As far as I know, that is pretty standard. My company just did that (we were salaried with a generous WFH policy before the virus so people took their equipment home almost daily) and that was part of the separation letter along with the FEIN and other codes I needed to file unemployment.

      1. Remote*

        Just curious whether they provide severance? In the past, I’ve been asked to sign a letter in exchange for receiving severance. Since there’s nothing this time, I’m not sure how they can require a legal letter. They can’t legally prevent you from getting unemployment if you’re laid off.

    5. Pennyworth*

      If they didn’t check the condition of the equipment before you took it they have no way of knowing its condition at that time. I would amend the section where it talks about ‘in good condition’ to ‘in the same condition it was when taken for remote working due to covid 19’, and sign and date the amendment.

    7. CM*

      As a lawyer, my personal inclination is never to sign anything without a concrete reason. I’m not giving you legal advice, but in your situation, if you haven’t previously agreed you’d sign a document like this, and there’s no benefit to signing for you, I agree with you and wouldn’t sign. However, the laptop does belong to the company, so you should either send it back or respond saying you are happy to return the laptop but need them to send a box with prepaid shipping.

      1. Remote*

        Thanks for your reply; it makes sense. I did email them with my address and asked them to send a shipping box. They thanked me for my address and said they would send a box. They continue to send automated email reminders to sign the legal document, but I’m not reading them any more.

  134. Kit Kat*

    I’m interested to learn more about the law that states that employers can’t prohibit from discussing salary among themselves.

    I know Alison has written that this only applies to employees at a certain level, not managers. Can anyone clarify that?

    I’ve been talking with a friend who has been talking about this on social media, and she’s gotten some comments that faculty at a local university have a non-disclosure clause in their contracts. I have no idea of the wording, so I imagine it could be legal if it focuses on non-disclosure to outside parties, but would it be legal to prohibit faculty from discussing salary among themselves?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      My understanding is that a confidentiality or non-disclosure agreement can only prevent someone from sharing that information externally. I don’t believe it can restrict their right under the NLRA to discuss wages with other employees within the organization. But I am not a lawyer. :)

    2. Lisa*

      Also IANAL, but my understanding from management training is that non-supervisory employees are legally entitled to share pay information amongst themselves. Supervisory employees don’t have this right. I think it is from a Federal Labor Law, and might be the same one that allows for coworkers to discuss complaints. Its an anti-union-busting law, which is where the worker vs. management distinction comes from.

      As to outside parties I believe those restrictions vary by state, and there are exceptions for privileged parties (spouses, lawyers, accountants, etc.)

      Maybe that gives you something to go on with the Google?

    3. Eng*

      Also not a lawyer, but just wanna throw out there the possibility that the issue isn’t you misunderstanding legality, but that the contract just has illegal things in it.

      Googling “NLRA discuss pay” should be a good start either way if you want to look into it more deeply.

  135. Treebeardette*

    How do you gain energy to job search? I’m in A soul sucking job due to my supervisor. It’s driving my coworker and I nuts. 3 people left already because of her and the manager won’t address the issue.
    Just to vent:
    I was on vacation and called out more time due to family emergency. My sibling has mental health illnesses. I never had a family emergency before. She wrote me up because “It’s not like he ended up dying.”
    Instead of leaving paperwork in our mandated place, she leaves it all on my desk. My desk is a few steps further than our drop off area. I don’t have anything to do with that paperwork.
    She sends long emails with incorrect info that she could have found out by asking our manager.
    She keeps calling me and texting me on my off hours.
    She called me super early to have a career discussion with me. I work till 12:30am. I’m dead asleep at 8am. These discussions should have happened a year ago but my manager was asking a few questions so that’s why she tried calling me.
    Whenever we have issues, I ask her what to do and she turns the talk back to me and asks what I would do. I’m. Not. The. Supervisor. Why would I know?
    She gave the newest employee the highest end of year rating. This employee has nothing written down and asked me to help her so I included her on a few projects to help me finish up. I was told that I didn’t complete everything, therefore I don’t deserve a high rating. (The employee said she knew she didn’t deserve it and has left the company soon after.)
    I was passed over for a promotion and was told it’s because a coworker didn’t like me. (That coworker hates everyone and everyone knows it.)

    I’ve pushed back a lot, but I’m fed up and burnt out. How do you gain energy to keep trying? Are all work places this bad?

    1. Lora*

      Sometimes spite can be a great motivator. Perhaps if you think of job searching as a way to get back at all the people at your job who are making your life terrible?

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      No, workplaces are not all that bad.
      Since you get reviews that are arbitrary and are not really linked to what you achieve, can you cut back on working and carve out time for job hunting?

      I’d also stop taking calls and meetings during times that are not your work hours.

      1. Treebeardette*

        Thank you! I’m going to do that! I have stopped taking those calls. But she still does it anyways.

  136. Hobbit*

    So, I wrote a comment last week about the meeting drama with my manager.

    Updates: I didn’t explain it properly because I was really stressed, but I was supposed to run the meeting and provide training for a new functionality as well. And manager still thought I’d be able to do that and juggle other tasks.

    After a few days of the silent treatment, manager finally came to talk to me and let me know she’d cancelled the meeting instead of doing some managing and arranging for coworker to help me out, and decided that ‘we’ll do things without involving coworker, and make it work between us’. Meaning, I will be doing everything and she’ll sit there and tell me how it’s not good enough, probably.

    Owners have also been talking about letting people go and she is losing it because part of the contract with the government for payroll aid is that the people covered can’t be let go for 3 months of the aid + 3 months after that, and she’s not covered at all.

    We’ll see what happens (still looking at jobs and even despite the pandemic have gotten a few contacts on LinkedIn by companies interested in my skillset).

  137. A Genuine Scientician*

    I’m an academic, and the transition to online has been challenging. We’re not front-line workers when we’re home, of course, but many of us are putting in huge amounts of overtime (as salaried, exempt workers), and the notion of work/life balance has become somewhat laughable. We’ve gotten through the semester, and this summer are plotting out what things are going to look like in the fall if we need to be online. In a meeting today, one of the people with supervisory duties asked us to all send her what we expect our normal working hours to be. Based in part of reading this site, I managed to push back slightly with “Particularly during the summer, when I don’t have classes to teach, I really appreciate the flexibility in our schedules. I’m trying to go for a run a few times a week, and I feel safer doing that in the middle of the day, when there are fewer people on the trail near my house. But I can’t easily schedule that as a particular time, due to it being weather-dependent. Is there a way we can still have that type of flexibility?” And I was really relieved to find out that they all fully support that type of thing, what they were trying to do was set expectations of when they could email us without us feeling undue pressure to respond quickly.

  138. lazy intellectual*

    I had major trouble focusing today and feel guilty about it. I got the minimum I needed done, and don’t have immediate deadlines, but I feel bad knowing that had I used my time efficiently, I would have gotten more done.

    Any tips on being successful/efficient in a job when you already have attention problems and are working from home?

    1. Anonymous because reasons*

      Oh my goodness I had exactly the same problem yesterday – and my boss just said “cut yourself some slack, I know you’ll get the work done. This is hard for everyone right now – the work norms are different”. She even said that if I needed to finish early some days I could, to rest.

      So I say be kind to yourself! Easier said than done sometimes. But try to be kind to you. You’re doing your best right now, even if it’s not up to your usual standards.

    2. Eng*

      Unless this is happening every day, I wouldn’t really worry about it. You are a human being and there is a global pandemic going on! “Max efficiency at all times” is not your measure as a person.

      I hear you on generally having issues focusing, I’m the same way, but definitely some days right now are way worse and I’m trying to give myself grace. I guess that doesn’t work if your superiors don’t take that philosophy but if they’re compassionate and understanding they should.

  139. Amber Rose*

    Ooh, I’m super late today. Darn. Oh well. I just wanted to vent a little about my coworker.

    I’ve been using an app for weight loss that has a large social aspect to it, and she found me there and friended me. Was kinda nice at first because she gets it, doesn’t get upset when I turn down snacks and gives me nutrition info and stuff.

    But she’s just way too happy about my success now. As in, she was bragging to our CEO and our boss about how much I’ve lost.

    My office doesn’t have the greatest of boundaries and I’ve known the CEO since he was just in sales so it’s not as bad as it could be. But it’s weird and awkward to me to have management have that kind of personal info about me.

    I get it, you can’t not notice looking at me that I’ve lost damn near half myself, but nobody really needs to know the numbers, right? That’s uncomfortable.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Yeah, that is awkward. Any chance you can tell her you like to keep the nutrition stuff in the app?

    2. RagingADHD*

      Unfriend her in the app. If she says anything about it, tell her that it’s not working well for you to mix business & personal life on that level, and you prefer to have more privacy.

      You can’t convince someone to have discretion and reasonable boundaries when they obviously don’t. Don’t drag this out by making requests or hints or anything else. Just take back your privacy.

      Be polite, be friendly when you speak to her. But this isn’t working for you, so you don’t have to keep her on the list.

  140. Lumbricus*

    Is there any recourse for non-essential workers whose employers are still requiring them to show up? I’ve reported my workplace to the state and didn’t get a response. I also wrote to the state agency that advises businesses and they confirmed my suspicion that we should not be working in person yet. My partner has health conditions and I’m genuinely worried about the risk to her.

    I feel selfish for complaining when there are people around the country being called back to work in much more dangerous situations. I don’t have much hope; I’m just looking for commiseration. Has anyone else here recently lost faith that your employer has any interests in mind other than profitability?

    1. Lisa*

      Check your state’s Pandemic Unemployment Law. Mine had a space on the form for claiming unemployment if your workplace isn’t complying with emergency orders. It’s not an ideal situation, especially now that we don’t know how much longer emergency orders will be in place, but it might be something?

  141. LS*

    When the job application asks for employer name and address, do I put the location where I work or the company’s headquarters?

    1. CatCat*

      If you work at a company location (as opposed to, for example, working from home), I’d put the location where you work. At least, that’s what I’ve been doing.

    2. Lisa*

      I always used to put the HQ address because that was what was on all my paperwork (paystubs, W2s, etc.) Also my office address changed four times while I worked for the same company, so it cut down on thrash.

  142. AGoodEndToFriYAY*

    Hi everyone, I have an…amazing…potential problem coming my way. A senior manager outside of my department has just thrown my name in the hat for a temporary senior position in our department, and I’m wondering if it’s appropriate to expect for or ask for a raise.

    Back story: My company has been hit extremely hard (think travel industry) by the pandemic, and we’re cutting costs all over the place to survive. One of our company’s major projects is going to be a huge money saver, so they’re ramping up efforts to finish it (assuming we don’t go belly up before we can finish it..haha). To cut costs, though, they’re ending contracts with two expensive consultants, and are looking for someone internal who’s maybe less busy these days to take on their responsibilities temporarily. I’m fully qualified not only for their role (I’m certified in their skill set), but I’m also already deeply involved in this major project, so I don’t need much onboarding.

    I know on any other day, I would be well within norms to discuss additional compensation, even if the promotion is temporary, but what should I expect during the pandemic? On the one hand, we’re trying to save money, and I’m just grateful to still be getting my full salary. On the other, they’ll be saving 2 salaries and maybe it makes sense that they throw me a portion of that savings to take on the extra work? I just don’t know what’s ethical here or realistic. Anyone have any experience in this so far or advice? Thanks, guys!

    1. Lisa*

      Unfortunately it is probably not realistic to ask for an immediate pay increase under the current circumstances of save-every-penny and be-grateful-for-a-job. You might be able to raise something with your manager about the possibility of a *future* bonus or increase if you succeed in the role, once things are back to “normal.” *Maybe* you have grounds to request that your pay not be cut if there are other pay reductions.

      I once saw an employee be laudingly awarded a $50 gift card for a design innovation that was going to save the company $1M a year, and that was during a minor belt-tightening phase, nothing like “our entire industry is under threat.”

    2. Nacho*

      Definitely bring up an increase in compensation. What they’re saving is VERY significant; consultants cost an arm and a leg, and they’d probably still save a ton if they tripled your salary. Nobody’s going to balk if you ask for a fair raise to go with your new position.

  143. Pyjamas*

    If furloughed employee gets a greeting card (think: we miss you, look forward to your return) from non-furloughed workers, does that affect the furloughed employee’s status for unemployment compensation?

      1. Lisa*

        Unemployment is based on your actual pay for an actual weekly period, nothing to do with anything you aren’t getting paid for, nothing to do with whether you might get your job back later.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No…it’s sweet that you’re thinking of their benefits though but yeah, that’s not at all how unemployment works.

      You’re still furloughed, despite a card saying you’re missed. It shows intent to hire them back at the moment as well, which is what they need for benefits and to waive the “looking for a job” requirement.

      The only thing I caution here is that what if they aren’t brought back? Are you in management and can you make that promise that they’ll be brought back? If you’re just colleagues, it’s fine enough to assume the best outcome! But if you’re management, it gets a little more “Hmmm could be an internal issue if you terminate them and remove them from that furlough list.”

  144. Teapot Transmogrifier*

    A few months ago, I graduated from university and started in an entry-level position as, let’s say, a teapot transmogrifier. (There are going to be a lot of made-up illustrative examples in this letter; I apologize in advance. Also, much of this post was written pre-corona, so any problems that might seem like they’re due to that are not entirely due to that.)

    The learning curve in this job is pretty steep, or it seems so to me. I’ve been getting the feeling that my degree didn’t prepare me for the practicalities of actually being a teapot transmogrifier. For example, I’ll be working on a project, and the instructions (we have a lot of documents with instructions!) will say “Step 7: Enflibbinate the teapot spout.” Or someone who’s the lead on a project might tell me: “Jane, I’m assigning you to enflibbinate the teapot spout.” My classes on teapot transmogrification have covered what enflibbination is, and why doing it is important…but even after getting this degree, I’m totally clueless about how to enflibbinate the spout *myself*. And although the company is full of instructions-documents, a step-by-step “How to enflibbinate a teapot spout” tutorial is too basic to have. So I have to ask the project lead how to do it.

    Then, a couple weeks later, I’ll be assigned to enflibbinate a vanilla teapot spout. And I go “ah, I enflibbinated a chocolate teapot spout recently — the process is pretty similar, right?” And they go “well, yes, but for a vanilla teapot, you also have to splooblify the spout before enflibbinating it.” And so I have to learn from square one how to splooblify things.

    In addition, I’ve made some very silly mistakes that don’t have anything to do with teapot transmogrification; rather, they’re more to do with confusion about office procedures. I’m worried that I’ll develop a reputation at this job for having absolutely no common sense. I’ve done some uncharacteristically absent-minded things, like forgetting a meal reimbursement limit and going over, and even mailing something incorrectly…but people here won’t know that it’s uncharacteristic, since they just met me!

    I am pretty good at hiding my emotions, and I’m doing my best to act chipper and eager to learn. But I *feel* very emotionally vulnerable when I have to admit to people that I don’t know how to enflibbinate a spout, or that something wasn’t covered in my degree. I mean, the expectation here seems to be that new entry-level employees come in being able to do it; otherwise, they’d be training us on it, like they train us on other basic things. (There weren’t any other new hires who started at the same time as me, so I don’t have anyone else to compare to.) I haven’t talked to anyone here about the emotional stuff, though. Hiding my feelings as much as possible, here.

    Unlike the employee in that one letter that was rerun a few weeks ago, I’ve never asked my boss if I’m going to be fired. I think my odds of being fired are VANISHINGLY small. (Modulo corona crisis.) But I do worry that I’m going to be perceived as needing more help and reassurance than I “should”, or that I’m turning into one of those people who can’t read between the lines or solve problems on their own and has to be told explicitly step by step what to do all the time. I’ve never been like that before! If you had asked me, say, a year ago, I would have said that was the exact opposite of me! So would everyone I knew! And since I’m confident that I’m going to be here a good long time and never be fired, and hopefully advance a whole lot over those many years to come, I’d like to avoid getting a reputation for being helpless, naive, easily overwhelmed, or immature, since I think that would be hard to shake in the future.

    1. Lisa*

      For the silly mistakes things, keep in mind that reasonable people have reasonable expectations for being relatively new to a workplace environment. If you feel like you aren’t being sufficiently forgiven for that, you can remind people in a gracious way with wording like “Oh no! This is only the second expense report I’ve ever done and I guess I am still getting the hang of this. I reviewed the documentation on expense limits and will keep those in mind going forward! Do I need to resubmit the whole report, or is is there a way to edit it? Thanks for steering me straight!” That shows that you are new to this, you want to learn, you are learning, and you are grateful for help.

      When I first started working in the corporate world I had an extremely unconventional background and was absolutely lost at things that were just basic to almost everyone around me. It probably took me about a year before I was comfortable with how the process-and-procedural things worked. In the meantime I tried to be extremely observant, proactive, and politely ask for help with a no-stupid-questions philosophy. (And I would love to see the look on my own face when our department Admin told me bluntly that it was easier to 1-day FedEx an envelope than to get a company-provided postage stamp. Office procedures can be bizarre!)

      I also suspect that if you weren’t having the learning-curve issues with your main responsibilities you would be less self-conscious about the procedural things. I have less to offer there without knowing your field, but I have sometimes seen similar things with recent grads where you have a school-smart but not yet job-smart education. This can happen in certain parts of high-tech where things move too quickly for curriculum to keep up, or where a higher-education program is too narrow. If that is the case, it doesn’t mean you didn’t learn what you know. It means your school oversold how well you were trained and/or your company didn’t sufficiently vet your fit for the job. The remedy for that would be to work with your manager to find ways to proactively plug the gaps so that you aren’t scrambling the next time one pops up in your work queue.

    2. Peter*

      “a step-by-step “How to enflibbinate a teapot spout” tutorial is too basic to have”

      Whenever we have a new starter, one of their jobs is to update the process documentation for the changes since they were last done.

      Can I suggest that you write out the enflibbinate and splooblify documents? It shows that there’s a process gap and you’re willing to learn and to assist future users.

  145. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    My manager isn’t managing me and it’s breaking my heart. I love the theory of my new role, but the practice is just not good. I had to beg for a weekly 1:1, and then I had to set the agenda for it, and then during the 1:1 I said I could use some help with my workload and he said, “Ask Jane or Willis, maybe one of them can lend a hand with the… calipers or pulse oximeters or… I don’t really know anything about examining alpacas, but they do, they can help.”

    I’m not even supposed to be personally examining alpacas anymore. I’m supposed to be supervising a department of alpaca examiners while doing business development and promotions and higher-level exciting stuff. But if I’m going to be doing all the alpaca exams myself until we get enough clients to hire additional examiners, I would at least like to have a boss who knows anything about what I’m doing!

    I don’t miss being a llama examiner but I miss working for the director of llama exams, who gave me regular feedback and was an expert llama examiner himself. I felt like praise from him really meant something, and I learned a ton from his critiques. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want that kind of professional assessment from the person I report to.

    The irony is that my new boss is really good at business development and promotions and all the things I want to be doing and should be doing. But he’s not offering me any guidance there, and I’m already tired of asking for things that I feel like he should be at least occasionally providing without me having to ask. I don’t do well having to manage up or work in a feedback vacuum. I’m not enjoying this at all.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      And before anyone says “Can you talk to his boss?” the answer is no because he runs the company. :/

    2. Lisa*

      Sometimes your manager doesn’t know how to do your job. That happens in certain company structures, and certain fields. It’s very common in marketing, for example, because usually the leadership came up through one or two specialties but they are now managing eight channels, with a huge variety of specialized skill sets. I’ve been in this sort of position, and it can be very unnerving as a manager because you can’t always know if people are doing things right or performing enough, let alone give them technical guidance, and I have *absolutely* leaned on a Jane or a Willis to help! It might help to reframe what “managing you” means. Managing doesn’t always mean coaching you in how to do the specifics of your job. She can still manage you as a worker, such as helping you prioritize, balance your workload, and secure needed resources. In this case it sounds like she is trying to help you get what you need by referring to people who have the expertise she lacks. That doesn’t have to be a bad thing.

      It is true that it can be more difficult to get a feedback and fair evaluations from a manager who doesn’t intimately understand what you do. But now that you realize that you can be proactive about it, keeping her accurately informed of details that might be less obvious to her.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        I appreciate that perspective!

        The thing is, examining alpacas and llamas is a huge part of our business. It’s disconcerting to have someone running the show who doesn’t even know the right vocabulary. Part of me wants to go into our next 1:1 like “So… you said you don’t know anything about this. Would you like me to walk you through it?” because otherwise I don’t see how I can ask for the staff and resources I need to do it well.

        Jane and Willis actually don’t do anything related to what I do! Willis manages our annual alpaca exhibition and contest, and Jane writes marketing pamphlets for llama farms. They both know a fair amount about llamas and alpacas but not about examining them or turning the exams into useful reports for alpaca owners. And of course they’re as maxed out as I am. (Willis and I both have young kids and our capabilities have been significantly diminished by current WFH-and-homeschool circumstances.) It honestly was not a great suggestion, and though I did reach out to them, neither was able to help at all.

        I certainly don’t need coaching in alpaca examination. I’ve been doing it for nearly two decades. What I want is to feel like part of a team. Right now I feel like a contractor: I’m assigned a task, I do it to the best of my abilities, I get no feedback at all other than “acceptable” or “not acceptable”, improving my skills is up to me in my spare time, and there’s no clear path to advancement. It’s lonely, and the team being distributed right now makes it that much lonelier. (My manager has not been great at addressing those needs either. It took over a month of WFH before we started having weekly team “meetings” and those meetings have no agenda or reports on the work we’re doing or anything; we hang out in Zoom, we chat for 30 or 45 minutes, we all say “Well, I’ve got to get back to this thing” and hang up.)

        1. New Senior Manager*

          “So…you said you don’t know anything about this. Would you like me to walk you through it?”

          Um, no. Just no, I urge you not to do that. It may make you come across as… not so great. She’s your manager. You’re not her manager. If the other two are unable to assist in coaching you, something it sounds like manager has no time for right now, I would email her and relay they are unavailable and ask if manager has another recommendation.

          It’s also possible, only you know for sure, that you require/desire more hands-on time than this manager is willing/able to give. If this is the case, your frustrations may increase. And that’s not good for your health. You may want to consider an internal or external move. I wish you good luck.

          1. New Senior Manager*

            Also agree with Lisa that it is not uncommon for managers to have little or no experience in their direct reports’ job responsibilities. They are hired for a different skill set, all that comes with managing. Yes, it’s an added bonus to have a manager who knows the struggle because they have been in the trenches like you. But in my experience this is less and less common.

  146. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Ooooooh how a huge project [as in gigantic company wide project] can show who’s in it and who’s over it. Some lazy bones are lucky this is happening after annual raises but they’ll feel it next year, people are getting so salty!

    Mandatory OT in place and certain people are acting shocked by it. We literally had this scheduled for the last six months and have reiterated it about every other week originally and then this last month, every other day so that we’re all on the same page, this is all hands on deck!

    We’re in a blessed spot, with being essential, having social distancing built into the structure just due to the nature of the beast itself and not just essential “on standby” kind of thing like many other essential entities, essential as in we’re still working at full speed with very few slow downs given what we are producing.

    This person is always lazy and half-assed, it’s not the virus and the anxiety/fears that it’s brought out in a lot of folks. So seriously, no excuse. We’re boxing shit up and they just left trash around all “Well these are things we don’t need.” Uh, bro. Uh, you know where the trash can is, use it. I’ve never been so unimpressed by someone in my life and I was hard to please for the first 27 years of my life.

    Flipside, I’m in full view of boss and grand-master boss [aka ownership], they’re noticing the slacker and they’re also noticing the rest of us killing it. I adore this group, minus the slacker. So this is me looking down the barrel of a 18 day stretch of no days off and 45hrs deep this week, with more coming. [I’ve still got it…never in my life been more happy to be hourly right now. People can think punching a clock is demeaning or something but as I’m counting my OT income that’s digging the rest of my butt outta this old AF personal debt that’s almost gone, I’m fine with a time punch system.]

    2. Sam I Am*

      Just want to say take care of yourself while you continue to go full-bore at work.
      I easily gloss over skipping simple stuff like staying hydrated and stretching when my schedule is tight, often with poor results.

      Be well

  147. SophieChotek*

    Interview Question

    As I start looking for work, I’ve been reading Alison’s book(s) and this blog of course, but I have also been googling “interview questions” so I can also think about ones that Alison doesn’t mention. (Especially those crazy ones we hear about and dread.)

    One I ran across is:
    Tell me one thing about yourself you wouldn’t want me to know

    I mean…what…?
    could I be dissemble and be like “Well, if I didn’t want you to know, I wouldn’t tell you”
    Or could you go with the “weakness” old answer, “my biggest weakness is my perfectionist tendencies”
    …with something similar like, um….

    Curious to know how you might handle it. Would it make a difference if otherwise the interview has gone well? (Vs. say a poor interview or hostile interview).

    1. RagingADHD*

      I would likely tell them the category of information I didn’t want them to know, but not the actual information.

      Like, “Well, I probably wouldn’t want to tell you everything that’s in my purse.” (End of answer.)

      If it was a good interview, I’d expect that to get a chuckle. If it was a bad/hostile interview, it doesn’t matter, so why not?

      What a ridiculous question.

  148. Sharona*

    A bit late to this thread but wondering if anyone has some nuggets of wisdom for someone in her mid 20s navigating a derailed/potentially irrelevant career path?

    I graduated 5 years ago and since then have done some odd retail jobs that allowed me to travel, lived abroad for a bit, and then finally settled down in one place and started working “adult” jobs a couple years ago. First I was the front desk at a law firm because I just needed a job, and more recently, I worked an entry-level position in an adventure travel company that I totally loved. I wasn’t sure if it was my “dream job” yet but I was super interested in the work and it had a great company culture. Unfortunately my team was laid off during the pandemic, understandable since no one is booking travel right now. So I’m wondering where I go from here and contemplating leaving the travel field behind altogether.

    I’ve been in the workforce for a few years now but haven’t really established myself as a specialist in any particular thing. I have some admin/customer service skills that made me good at jobs where I was doing things like filing and answering the phone, but most of the skills I have rely on being in an actual office, and I want to get a job I can do remotely since my partner whom I live with is high risk for virus complications.
    Another problem I keep getting stuck on is that I have no idea what field to focus on! I have so many interests and don’t feel pulled in one particular direction – I could see myself working in creative/performing arts orgs, nonprofits (education, environmental, social impact, etc…), or maybe something to do with writing? I’ve always been a strong writer and have tutored academic writing, but don’t have any experience doing it for a job, or any portfolio/samples completed.

    Basically, most of my jobs have not required using my brain that much – it’s been much more important that I just show up, answer the phones/sell the products/mail the packages with a good attitude. I’ve never advanced far enough to have any position that could be done from home. So now that I’m looking for remote work I don’t really know where to start! And if you read this far, thank you so much, I truly appreciate your spending time with a stranger’s online word vomit. I would just love any kind of guidance or advice from someone who has been here and made this leap.

    1. tetris replay*

      A lot of administrative assistant and related jobs are mostly looking office experience to indicate that you have an understanding of office norms and can do administrative tasks without a lot of oversight. So you’re potentially well-positioned to get a job in that area in this new world if you can indicate that you’re self-motivated and a good worker. Certainly much moreso than workers without years of office experience.
      The kind of admin jobs you’ve listed often aren’t highly specialized by industry. While it would be an advantage to hire someone who had also worked in teapot acquisitions as opposed to llama aquisitions, I wouldn’t make it 100% a requirement in a job description. With your work in adventure travel, I’d find it more relevant that the company was largely customer-facing, whether you’d worked directly with clients, and how large the company and the local office was. I don’t know enough about adventure travel agencies to understand how similar they might be to my company, so I’d need you to do the research and present similarities to me clearly in a resume or cover letter. I’d also be interested in whether you worked with the same database software (etc.) that my company uses, and whether your resume indicates that you’re quickly able to pick up new software systems (especially right now.)
      If I were hiring an admin person at this moment, my main concern would be finding someone I could onboard quickly. That would probably be my most important hiring criteria right now, coming from a small company.

  149. Nessun*

    Just a quick thank you to everyone whoncomment3d on my worries about my webinar in my post a few weeks ago. I did eventually reach a point where I was able to pitch for a push on the date, and gor it moved back 2 weeks. I’m still worried about how the heck I’m supposed to pull this off to my boss’s satisfaction, but I’ve located a few resources to ask for help and support, so at least I have some forward momentum. I suspect I won’t really calm down about it until it’s passed, but the mountain seems a little less insurmountable now!

  150. Not to Be a Doormat*

    I have started reading the book “Corporate Confidential” by Cynthia Shapiro and although she does have some good points on some things, there are a few things that I am not sure of.

    The book mentioned that we should avoid talking to HR about our work problems unless it is a very serious one and we need proof that we have at least tried to talk to our own managers/other colleagues to try to resolve it. The author views that sometimes taking too many issues with HR might make you seen like you can’t handle work situations yourself and you might be an employee who can put the company at risk for lawsuits, which can upset the company. She also suggests this approach to sexual harassment issues. If the incident involves an employee within your department or your own manager, then I think we can discuss the situation directly with them to try to resolve it. But what if the situation involves an employee outside your department that’s not under your department head’s management? What if the perpetrator does not stop the harassment? I wonder if avoiding HR can also make you look like a “doormat” in front of your whole company, where everyone will see you as someone who will never tell a higher up what is wrong and can hide their bullying of you?

    I haven’t finished reading the entire book yet. But do you all have suggestions on what employees should do to address problematic behavior and the right approach to take with HR that doesn’t make the employee look neither whiny or a doormat?

    1. Darren*

      Sexual harassment is a serious issue, you can if you want tell the person to knock it off but if you aren’t comfortable doing that or they don’t knock it off you should be bringing it to your manager or HR immediately. Sure the general advice is fine, yeah the first question your manager is going to have about a lot of issues is going to be have you tried to resolve it yourself yet, and if not ask you to do so, but sexual harassment definitely doesn’t fall into the general issues category.

    2. Leo*

      Here’s my understanding, from being a woman in a field notorious for harassment who has had to make these decisions for herself. What if the situation involves an employee outside your department that’s not under your department head’s management? = tell the person first that the behavior is unwelcome, but if it continues or they respond disrespectfully, go to HR. What if the perpetrator does not stop the harassment? = def go to HR, right now! Here’s why: HR depts care about legal liability. I’m not a lawyer, but from my research, in the US, harassment is legally actionable if it’s 1) egregious enough that most people would agree it would make the environment hostile right away or 2) someone continuing unwelcome behavior that a reasonable person would know is unwelcome (or that the unreasonable person has been told is unwelcome) until the environment becomes hostile (usually defined as having an impact on your work productivity, health, or job security).

      I try to speak directly to the person the first time they say something sexist or seem to have discriminated against me. Even to the point of sending an email after an incident. (Of course, I try to make it a nice email that won’t be read out loud and laughed at.) I try to make the communication as light as possible and extend grace, and make it clear what I want/don’t want without placing blame.

      I think others may see this as overkill, but I need to or I’ll either 1) blow up at them later after ruminating on it or 2) never say anything but burn out from the stress. If the behavior then continues, I go to HR, with everything documented. (I usually skip going to my manager only because none of my managers have ever really cared about this issue – they just sit there and defend the harasser to me. If I had a manager who I felt cared, then I would go to my manager first.)

      I would love to go straight to HR but in my experience, HR just won’t do anything unless the harassment meets the legal definition. And yes, in my field, it can get you a bad rep because people will see you as oversensitive if you’re upset by things HR doesn’t think are an issue… So I guess in sum, I sort of agree with Shapiro’s advice. However, I also believe in standing up for yourself however you’re best able to. Whatever you do, don’t try to tell yourself it’s not harassment, that will eat you up inside. At least document everything for the exit interview if nothing else. :)

  151. Govt vs Corp*

    From those of you who have transitioned from corporate jobs to government jobs or vice versa, what is the major differences between working for these two different entities? Management style? Amount of office politics? Chance of promotions? Etc.

  152. Retail not Retail*

    The man Becky Lynch if you see this – I took your sort of advice about not working myself to nothing since I’m not in the retail world. I went home early on Wednesday because I had waves of exhaustion that made me wonder if you could fall asleep standing up or walking.

    Anyway I’m doing the same work I was doing Wednesday morning and did it the last 2 days. I mean no one will begrudge me a “sit in the shade” break (can’t sit in a space with AC since all those buildings are still closed!).

    Nausea and dizziness are still my limit but this job is physically hard. And I’ve had a 4 gallon spray backpack on to disinfect half of the park. Twice. It does get emptier but then I have to trek back to the supplies.

    If I have to do this the entire phase one, I will beg to wear headphones even when we’re open. Throw me a bone man.

  153. babblemouth*

    Just want to share that I had a first interview for a really interesting job yesterday. It went so well! This is round 1 of 3, and it was the shortest/ easiest, but I still came out of it feeling like I’d put my best self forward, and I really think I’ll go to round 2. It’s exciting!

  154. Cheluzal*

    Can someone in the know help? My friend is a teacher at a private, very expensive school. They have expected them to do a full online teaching, not a modified one like us in the public sector. For example, if class was from 1 to 2 then every student must zoom from 1 to 2 so she’s expected to work a full eight hour day – with a six-month-old at home!

    Her husband can barely help and is with clients most of the day and they told her that because she can’t do online and refuses to put the kid in the school’s on-site daycare right now that they will only give her a part time position next year just in case we still do online.

    Is this legal? Recourse?

  155. XX_FORS*

    Is it acceptable to be rude to a co-worker who continually calls you on vacation?

    I called a guy on holiday about something minor and he was quite stern and then hung up. He’s usually pretty cool in person but then I was taken aback a bit.
    When he got back, he just said that not to call him on holiday anymore, unless it was critically urgent. I thought about telling our manager about this, since it was pretty curt.

    1. Lurker2209*

      Did you know he was on Holiday? I would say it’s rude to call someone about a minor thing while they’re on Holiday. If you didn’t know, it’s on him to turn off his phone or screen voicemails for anything urgent.

        1. Rick Tq*

          If you had no other source to answer your question *and* it was critical to the business you might have have an excuse. If both conditions aren’t met you were out of line to call him.

          Calling that way without trying to get the answer from another source is not a good impression to leave with him or your manager.

    2. Cara*

      He’s on holiday. You shouldn’t be calling him unless it was serious and urgent, and he is allowed to be annoyed by that. That’s rude, and inconsiderate. I’d have been curt and stern with you too!

      I don’t think your manager would be happy to learn you are pestering colleagues on holiday either.

    3. Rick Tq*

      If it was the first time and something he was subject matter expert then maybe an overreaction. If your coworkers have a habit of calling for minor things instead of using other resources you may have gotten the backlash from the last straw.

      His comment about not calling unless it was critically urgent should be normal practice, nothing to talk to management about.

      If you knew he was on holiday and it was a minor issue why DID you call him?

        1. Rick Tq*

          Expect a discussion with your manager about your violating boundaries and inappropriate use of resources.

          Calling someone on holiday is a last resort, not your Easy Button.

    4. LGC*

      I was going to say “no,” but then I missed the “continually.” Which changes things a lot.

      For what it’s worth, I still say no because I don’t think it’s ever appropriate to be rude. (I’m taking your word that he was rude, or at least that he behaved in a way that I’d consider rude.) But you want to respect people’s vacations, unless it is urgent. So if you’d called him multiple times about non-urgent matters, I can definitely see him being terse in response.

      But yeah, I think both of you messed up here – him for not setting boundaries before it got to this point…but more important, you for repeatedly contacting him when he’s off from work. I’m not sure how far along you are in your career/this job, but if you’re relatively new…I would talk to your manager about figuring out who the fallback people are for things.

  156. Breakdown imminent*

    Can I refuse to manage a person? I’m in a country with very strong employee rights (which is good ) but I inherited a toxic employee that’s been passed around and everyone hates. They can’t do the basic function of their job and I’m the only one that seems to be managing them which is what was needed all along but I feel let down by my company and about to burn out. This person is incredibly emotionally manipulative and it’s affecting my mental health. Both my boss and HR told me they want to get rid of them but it will be hard and take time. Finally doing a PIP with them but it’s taken over a year to get to this (for various reasons) and I don’t think I can make it. I slept only 4 hours in 100 the other week, I’m crying every day an feel like I’m constantly going to vomit. I’ve never managed a person like this before and always taken on any work challenge so this is a first. Speaking to this persons prior manager they said they were awake all night too with anxiety from this person. What can I do? I either take sick leave and stop work all together and the person is still there, Or suck it up and have a breakdown?
    Everything I’m reading it says it’s the managers fault it the employee sucks , and it’s always about the mental health of employees. But what about managers? I need help

    1. LGC*

      …so what would you need to do to get Toxic Employee fired? Because that is what you need to do. I can’t imagine that any country has such strong laws that it’d be literally impossible to terminate an employee that’s actively making the job worse.

      Also, maybe this is my bias showing, but your company…isn’t handling this great! (This isn’t specific to your country – this even happens in the US, where employees can be discarded like trash.) You should have never been put in this position.

      1. Alfredstan the Great*

        It depends.
        If the employee is just incompetent, then there may be a formal disciplinary process involved. Legally, the OP may be right in this case.
        And given modern labour laws, and discrimination, there must be a clear process in getting rid of people. Few cases are automatic dismissals. and in many cases, rightly so imho.
        The OP needs to expound on what the laws are in his or her country or area, since it could well be HR’s hands are tied.

        1. Breakdown imminent*

          HR hands are tied and they are guiding process. I don’t think my mental health can make it though. Raised concerns with my line manager and there is no one else ( large organization, but small team so no management options).
          Is it unprofessional to take sick leave?

          REPLY

          1. SpeakOfTheDevil*

            This is not an optimal approach, and I would *NEVER* suggest it if there were better options available, but it sounds like there may not be. Can you make their life so miserable that they either quit or transfer to somebody else? Obviously the first thing you would try would be to use whatever “normal” means you have available to get them fired, but if that is simply not possible, and it essentially becomes a matter of you or them? Can you micromanage them horribly, or treat them badly, or overwork them terribly or just mess with them until they remove the problem themselves?

            If, as you say, HR and your own management are on your side to get rid of them, if you can push them enough where they give you sufficient cause, you may be able to get rid of them sooner. Now before everyone says how terrible an approach this is, if there is a batter way, I say do it, but it sounds like it may become that OP has to quit because of the stress or the problem has to go…either/or. And it isn’t the OP *causing* the problem. it’s the terrible employee who refuses to improve and refuses to quit. They made the call to stay and cause problems.

            1. Breakdown imminent*

              Tempting but I want to do the right thing. Plus this person is paranoid and threatening to record everything

        2. LGC*

          OP said it was hard, but not impossible. And that’s my point – they should be (and okay, they are) doing the things that are needed to get them out! I’m not expecting Fergus The Lunch Stealer to be out by Monday, and OP can’t just fire them under force of law. But…like, if Fergus is so bad he’s been passed around to different teams until he’s caused OP to have a mental breakdown (her words, not mine – okay, her username is “Breakdown imminent,” so maybe it’s not quite that bad yet), like…they should have started to fire him at least two bosses ago. Or something.

          That said…is there a timeline for the PIP? What happens if the employee doesn’t meet the goals of the PIP? These are questions to ask (or that you should be able to answer).

          And finally…okay, I’ll admit, I fired too soon and asked the wrong question, since it was already answered. I’ll answer the question asked (no, you probably can’t refuse to manage him), and ask again…OP, like, it sounds like you think your only option is to run away, and I’m really wondering what is going on for that to happen. I don’t doubt he’s awful. But also, like…I suspect that part of it is that it feels like it’s all falling on you, and it really shouldn’t. Unless you’re the CEO, which you’re not.

          Outside of that…take a mental health day or two (or a week) because you probably need it, but also this is why you get paid to be a manager. Also, on top of that:

          1) The employee is emotionally manipulative. You’re probably going to have to learn to grey rock him. It sucks because he sucks, but at least you know how he sucks!
          2) You should…consider saying what you said here to your boss, but in a more finessed way. In effect, if you do say anything, you want to say, “I’m having difficulty managing Fergus, specifically in X, Y, and Z areas. Is there any way you can help?” It doesn’t sound like you’d feel safe saying how badly you’re affected by it, so that’s why I’m not suggesting that.
          3) This is the one thing I hate suggesting, but…if he’s that bad at his actual job, don’t give him his actual job if possible.

    2. Alfredstan the Great*

      you may have no choice.
      If HR cannot get rid of them, then you have to manage them the best you can.
      Perhaps you can ask to get transferred to another unit. Or work from home, if possible.

    3. New Senior Manager*

      What is employee doing to have such an effect on you? Do you feel comfortable providing a few examples then we may can be more helpful.

  157. Breakdown imminent*

    HR hands are tied and they are guiding process. I don’t think my mental health can make it though. Raised concerns with my line manager and there is no one else ( large organization, but small team so no management options).
    Is it unprofessional to take sick leave?

    1. New Senior Manager*

      No it is not unprofessional to take a sick day. We all need them sometimes.

  158. SpeakOfTheDevil*

    Hi! Just wanted the perspective of a few other people on a (not at all big) question. I just moved into a pretty senior role (CISO), and I have a long history of IT and IT security work stretching back 25 years. I have also had a “side gig” for about 15 years that seems “resume worthy” (commercial pilot and flight instructor). The problem is that my LinkedIn profile has about 17 jobs on it going back to 1990. Several of these jobs were for 2 years each, and some others (an adjunct teaching gig at a local college, flight instructor, commercial pilot) are not directly relevant to my current role. My LinkedIn profile is, in this role, my first introduction to many of the people I will interact with.

    Do you folks think I should keep or remove the “extraneous” jobs from my profile, to “clean up” my work history, or do they add enough value to stay? Or does it not matter one whit? ;)

    1. Rick Tq*

      I work with a number of security professionals who provide virtual CISO services and their resumes are all over the map. Wilderness survival trainer, US Navy ordanance technician on an aircraft carrier, etc.

      I think any previous role that had a heavy training component (Flight Instructor for one) should stay on your resume. Information security is as much about training users (and management) on good security practices as it is buying the right software and hardware to monitor and manage the computers on your network.

Comments are closed.