open thread – June 26-27, 2020

by Alison Green on June 26, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. But Is this Legal?*

    Most of my company(95%) is still working remotely due to COVID. They said anyone working in a NY or PA office needs to bill our time to our company office location even if we are working remotely in another state. This obviously has tax implications as many people’s company office is in NYC but they are working in more rural areas. Is this legal? Wasn’t sure if there is a COVID adjustment in place.

    1. BigSigh*

      My work is doing the same. My understanding was the people currently working in different states than their office haven’t moved to these new states. They’re there temporarily, and so still have a home address in the original state where the office is. I don’t know a lot of the legal stuff, but I assumed it didn’t matter as long as they had the original address.

      1. Just J.*

        +1. I’ve had this come up before when working remotely. It’s an accounting and tax thing. Check with your accounting office.

        1. But Is this Legal?*

          For background, 80% of my firm travels every week to client sites and is required to bill their time to the physical location they are working out of(not the main office they technically are assigned to) so that’s where the confusion has come from.

          1. Five After Midnight*

            Right, but you’re not traveling now. NY in particular considers working-from-home the same as working in the office (in other words you cannot avoid NY state income tax by WFH from another state (say, NJ) if your permanent office assignment is in NY). There is a very good comment about nexus below, and the reason you are asked to use your permanent office location is to maintain the existing nexus instead of creating a new one since the situation is temporary.

            1. But Is this Legal?*

              Ok thank you, this makes sense. My friends at other firms were told to bill from the residence they were working out of and I wasn’t finding anyone else experiencing this. Very much appreciated!

            2. Gaia*

              So this isn’t exactly correct. My company is based in NYC. I work remotely from thousands of miles away. I don’t pay NY income tax and have no obligation to do so. The difference is OPs job is not considered permanently remote from another state.

              I do suspect this is going to create a mess come tax season if guidance isn’t issued.

              1. Five After Midnight*

                The fact that your company is in NYC does not matter. What matters is, as you say, your permanent office station (which I didn’t make clear in my earlier post). If you are a permanently remote worker a thousands miles away, then, no, you don’t pay NY state taxes, because your “normal office” is not in NY. On the other hand, if you are permanently assigned by your company to a NYC office and are required to be there even occasionally, then you are a NY state employee (resident if you live in NY state or non-resident if you don’t) and NY will claim its share of income taxes. It gets even more complex if you travel on business on regular basis, because you *may* be liable for income taxes to other states where you work. For example, if your “normal office” is outside of NY state but your work at your company’s NYC headquarters more that 14 days a year, then, *technically*, you are subject to NY state income taxes and you need to apportion your income on IT-203. Now, take a wild guess at how many employers and employees actually follow this particular reporting requirement…

    2. Lifelong student*

      Generally speaking, having an employee located in another state, gives the employer nexus in that state. This affects tax reporting for both the employer and employee. Even temporary work in another state by an employee can require tax reporting. However, during the pandemic, some states have suspended the nexus issue for employees working in other states. YMMV

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Usually you have to work out of state for a set number of hours, so there’s that. And I’m sure they’re waiving nexus in a lot of cases given the pandemic has forced people to work from home when they’re not setup for that in general.

      Now if they were to allow people to go to WFH permanently I’m sure their home states wouldn’t appreciate being cut out of the tax loop.

      So it’s possibly a super gray area where some states are fine with it and some states will want to eat someone’s face for their money. I don’t know enough to really say legal vs illegal. There’s too many state executive orders and adjustments to know without lots of information and research and most likely a lawyer TBH.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        Related question, how do I find out which states those are and how many hours?
        I’ve seen several articles floating around about how spending time in other states during the pandemic can cause potential tax issues for both me and my employer, but I don’t know how to figure out just what those parameters are, or if they’ll be waiving them due to the pandemic.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You want to look into each specific state, I’d try a state’s DOR or DOL page to start with!

          Honestly I think a lot of folks are just flying by the seat of their pants now and are doing what works to keep the business going. They’ll figure out the tax implications later. Also states have to start coming for people and in this kind of atmosphere, good luck with them sorting out all that mess!

    4. Jaimie the B*

      Yes its legal. It is kind of dependent on state and your company’s policies. I work for a huge (100k) firm, and this is our policy for employees aligned to our New York Office even if they work elsewhere.

  2. wondering aloud*

    I knew petty things like this would happen with Covid19 but have no idea how to handle this.  Everyone is getting upset and frustrated.  I work for an essential  business.  About 99% of the staff was able to work from home.  About 10 of us had a deadline that wasn’t being moved and we ended up having to come in the office during our State’s lockdown.  Every precaution was taken based on guidelines from numerous medical resources.  We feel safe.    Please don’t get me wrong that the whole company has been a team effort to keep things running smoothly. 

    I will say though with things opening up again there is a friendly disagreement between those of us that have had to come into the office versus those who have worked home.  The 10 of us have gotten into a comfortable pattern of social distancing and figuring out how to social distance in smaller areas.   Now that we are reopening the company has listed a set of stricter rules such as in certain areas preferably no more than 1 person in the room at a time however if need be at least 15 feet between each person in the room; Masks must be worn at all times when anywhere outside of your private office, use hand sanitizer entering and leaving any area, etc.   

    Recently I had to grab a file and someone was making copies in the same room.   I asked if they were going to be long, they responded about 20 minutes. They would not leave the copier.   I had to grab as a department head needed some information while on a conference call.  My coworker and I were about 30 feet apart.  I informed the person I needed to grab something.  My feet literally did not leave the hallway, I stretched out and grabbed the file, mask was on, hand sanitizer was used….   This resulted in me getting reamed out and shouted at by this person for 20 minutes and that I was the most selfish person in the world.  This person went on and on how they had been quarantining and weren’t going to get sick by someone who had been out in public.  I was flabbergasted and on the verge of tears.  I apologized.  Pointed out that I followed all appropriate procedures.   Trying to defend myself just lead to more and more yelling.  My boss said I did everything correctly.  There was no need for me to apologize, but now this person is giving me the cold sholder and will not even talk with me on projects where we need to use the same sources.  What should I have done?  I’m not the only one this is happening to.  It feels like us 10 against the world. 

    2. Dave*

      I am not saying you did anything wrong but one thought would be to say you urgently needed a file and ask to grab it or have them grab and put it in the hallway for you. Different people have different stress levels regarding this right now and I think there is some adjustment to finding everyone’s stress level so you have a better way to handle it. For those you know are extremely stressed a kid glove approach might be helpful in managing relationships with some co-workers.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        It’s on those people just as much to figure out how to manage their stress without abusing people around them. They can’t have everything their way in all instances.

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          Thank you, I could not agree more. While it’s true we’re all under a lot of stress, I feel like the current pandemic is too often being used as an excuse to throw normal social rules out the window. It has always been the case that your stress–from ANY cause–does not give you a license to abuse me. Nothing about that has changed.

          1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            I think some people are feeling way more stressed than most and sometimes it explodes out. I stay home as much as possible and we’re WFH for the foreseeable future, so I’m not likely to experience an episode like this one, but when I do go out I see that more people are just wiggy. Not saying “Oh well, that’s just the way it is now so suck it up,” it was totally wrong. But I’m now keeping emotional as well as physical distance because of social distance vigilantes who are really people who are just losing it.

      2. kt*

        Ironically, it sounds like if the coworker had grabbed the file and put it in the hallway, their distance would have decreased from 30 feet to 7 or 10. Sure, if that makes the coworker “feel safer”, I guess….

      3. Senor Montoya*

        Yes. Just because YOU are comfortable doesn’t mean everyone is. For all you know they have a family member in a high risk group.

        I do think it’s on EVERYONE to try to find ways to be kind and helpful. If your colleague (who I assume was not one of the comfortable 10?) seemed stressed, then take a minute to find a solution that kept you out of the room.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          As long as the OP was at least 15 feet from the other person, they were in the right. If the other person doesn’t agree with the rules, they should probably stay home.

        2. tangerineRose*

          The colleague could have offered to leave the room while you grabbed the file. Did the colleague understand that this was urgent? Either way, the screaming was not acceptable.

        3. Observer*

          If the other person was not leaving shortly, what exactly was the OP to do? Magic is not something we actually have access to. Nor does anyone have the power to move things with their minds.

          Personal comfort is not the appropriate measure to gauge if someone’s behavior is medically appropriate. And if you are going to talk about being kind, it’s pretty obvious that the OP was trying to be considerate. The coworker, on the other hand, was neither kind nor even reasonable.

        4. Saberise*

          She was 30 feet from her. And the work around was she did not go in the room. She reached in and grabbed it. Only mistake I can see she made was allowing the person ream her out for 20 minutes.

    3. Buttons*

      You did everything correctly, they were a jerk. Let them give you the cold shoulder it reflects on them, not you.

      1. Artemesia*

        Since you needed the file right away, it was up to that person to move out of the room if she was uncomfortable with you getting the file.

    4. Just J.*

      IMHO, I think you were fine. I think everyone is stressed out and worried. Everyone is allowed to feel their feelings and it’s okay to be stressed out and worried. What you do with your feelings is another matter. Being yelled at for 20 minutes is not fine. No matter what. I am glad you took it to your boss. They are now aware of the other person’s reaction. If the person continues to give you the cold shoulder, then take that to your boss as well.

    5. Mama Bear*

      It sounds overblown. I wonder if this is that person’s anxiety about being back in the office showing. In the first weeks under new rules everyone here was on edge. There were people apologizing for going the wrong way on stairs and it took some time to get used to the new normal. If your boss says you were fine, then try to let it go. I hope that person chills out. The fact that they won’t talk to you now is something to address with them and if you get no traction, to your boss. They can be upset that you reached for the file, but not speaking to you about work products is a whole other ball of wax and needs to be addressed. Honestly, you and the other 9 had to work in an office when this person got to spend time at home. They’re lucky the 10 of you aren’t more upset about having to come in.

    6. Bagpuss*

      Did your boss speak to them? However stressed they were, shouting at you, especially for so long, is totally unacceptable and it would be reasonable for you to ask that they are spoken to to make it clear to them that their behavior isn’t OK.
      It may be that they need to have someone in authority speak to them and make sure that they understand the procedures your office has in place, and that they cannot behave that way towards other staff members.
      I think that it is also worth raising with your manager that this is not an isolated incident, and ask whether they can perhaps address the wider problem to ensure that you and your coworkers are not treated in that way in future.

      It was nice of you to apologize, but not necessary – you didn’t do anything wrong.

    7. WellRed*

      Well one thing would have been to walk away rather than stand there and be abused for 20 minutes. Since your company can obviously do mostly WFH, they should have kept doing it, so I would mention this to HR or whoever and make sure there are rules in place, etc etc for everyone to follow or that people who are this anxious can continue to WFH.

      2. Mama Bear*

        I agree that if they ever do that again, say you’re sorry – quickly and once – and walk away.

    8. Thankful for AAM*

      You and the 10 staff who came in first are an “island.” You have a whole ecosystem that has had to change now that you are back on the mainland, or the mainland came to you.

      I actually took a class in college that explored the “island” mentality so I am excited to use the idea now! Lol.

      I think you are expecting everyone new to the office to have got past the initial stage of how does this COVID thing work. We had a smaller staff at first, I was part of it, and we had a steep learning curve. I spoke to my managers because I knew the learning curve for the rest of the staff would be steep and I did not want 1. to be exposed (again) as everyone figured out how to function, and 2. To have the kinds of irritations and frustrations you experienced as the newbies and islanders clashed.

      My org did take a few steps (mostly emails about it) to make the learning curve visible, tell us what to expect from each other, etc. I did find it helped.

      1. MyCorona*

        Your management/HR need to have a meeting/email sent to the group regarding how this is The New Normal discussing people’s fears/anxieties surrounding returning to the workplace and what is considered appropriate at work (note: what your coworker did wasn’t appropriate). I get it – everyone is stressed and anxious and scared now, especially with coming back to the office. But, each person coming back needs to learn how to better manage their emotions because things like this could have unintended consequences. Expectations from management HR need to be clearly communicated for all to see.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      They reacted inappropriately. Unless they’re much much senior to me, feel free to cut her off. “Please don’t yell at me. I followed company policy. Let me deliver this file to $CompanyDirector, and then we can both go discuss it with $MyBoss.”
      As for her no longer collaborating, look through Alison’s archives — she’s had letters on the same subject in the years before covid.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        I’d remove the ‘please’. “Don’t speak to me that way again.” You don’t need to explain yourself.

    10. digital nativeish*

      Your coworker reminds me of the drivers who slow down to yell at me about slowing them down when I ride my bike. If they’re worried about covid, yelling at you for 20 minutes (yikes) only increases chances of transmitting it.
      I mean, I would have asked if you needed something if I was going to be at the copier that long and figured it out. And refusing to talk to you even now? Way out of line.
      Maybe you could have announced that you were grabbing something real quick, but honestly I’m not sure that would’ve helped with this person. It’s not you; it’s them.

    11. Seraphim*

      I’ve bought a house using it and am selling a house using it. In fact, I just used it today for something else. Signers receive notification of it being signed as well as a link to the signed doc.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I think that this is a management issue. People need to be told that screaming at each other will NOT be tolerated. Twenty minute tirades are over the top and totally unacceptable.

      Her reaction here says she believes Covid only goes one way from YOU to HER. But that is not how viruses work. Using HER criteria here, she was equally at risk of infecting YOU. I guess she skipped that part.

      Next time the screaming starts, walk away. IF the screaming follows you lead the screamer to your boss’ office. If the boss is not there lead the screamer to the boss’ fill-in or nearest person in authority.
      If you prefer, the next time simply say, “I will NOT be spoken to in that tone of voice. When you can pull your thoughts together we can have a chat.”

      But better yet, go talk to the boss now and ask for help with this recurring problem of people screaming at each other for prolonged periods of time.
      Remember you did not “make” this Covid situation, you are just in it like everyone else. Just because people are scared does not give them the right to be verbally abusive. It’s stressful enough with out random tirades.

      1. Karinna*

        And screaming at people actually has a more forceful exhale than talking, so they’re actually putting people at risk by screaming at them. Normal language is a 6 ft buffer but screamers should be much farther away. Preferably in another building entirely.

    13. totally at risk*

      I do have empathy for OP but the commenters have missed one thing. The rule is 1 person per room. Someone is in the room. OP arrived at the room.
      OP- asked how long will you be.
      Copier person said twenty minutes.
      OP might have said- I need to quickly get a file- time sensitive-
      a. May we swap?
      b. May I just duck in since we are more than six feet away from each other.
      c. Would you please pull the file for me and leave it on the desk outside where I can retrieve it safely?

      Copier person- suddenly sees OP in the room breaking the rule. Freaks out.
      Copier person is in the wrong for yelling and berating.
      OP- if it was time sensitive- walking away is the correct response.
      Copier person owes an apology for raising voice, over-reacting, and berating.
      OP owes apology to copier person for breaking the one person, one room rule.
      OP doesn’t have the higher moral ground because they are “one of the ten” unless they are an epidemiologist creating and implementing policy for the organization.
      Cold shoulder- juvenile response- needs to be addressed by OP and management.

      1. wondering aloud*

        Hi! Thank you for your comment. I wasn’t clear in my post – it is suggested 1 person in the room at at time however if need be if there is more than one person we must be 15 feet apart.

        The person was aware that the file was needed urgently but stated they had been waiting all day for the copier and they were not budging.

        1. tangerineRose*

          The co-worker sounds like a pain. They couldn’t leave the room for a couple of minutes and come right back?

        2. Oh Behave!*

          You were quite clear about this in your post. Your coworker was out of line. Please let your boss know about the freeze out. You did nothing wrong.

      2. Wheee!*

        Based on what the OP wrote, one person per room is recommended, but can be broken if necessary as long as the people are masked and at least 15 ft apart. And the OP says that the coworker “would not leave” the copier. While it’s possible that OP could have handled things more carefully, it seems like they handled things quite reasonably.

    14. RagingADHD*

      I’m very tired of this “stress” excuse for being abusive to people.

      Squeeze a grape, you get grape juice.

      Whatever comes out under pressure is what was inside all along. People need to start owning their internal garbage, and working on it.

      Maybe you can hold the angry, hostile rants inside when life is easy. You’re still an angry hostile person.

      1. Kiwi with laser beams*

        Co-signed, and as someone who used to behave like this, I fully endorse taking a firm hand in situations like this where you have equal standing. Lashing out is an easy way of dealing with stress and as long as people who do it get no friction, they’ll keep doing it. It’s not unsympathetic to refuse to be someone’s punching bag.

    15. Koala dreams*

      I’m so sorry. It’s not okay to scream at a coworker for 20 minutes, and it’s especially bad right now due to the pandemic. I don’t know how to get bullies like that to stop, but I agree with everyone else that there’s no point in staying and listening, or apologizing to them. Also, try to not take their mean comments to heart. (Easier said than done, I know.)

      Can you get help from your boss or from HR? Could you go together with the other harassed employees and complain as a group?

    16. JQWADDLE*

      You were in the right. I am a jogger and I have seen articles that say that you should try to maintain the 6 feet social distancing whenever possible when jogging, but a brief breach doesn’t raise your risk that much. The risk is a function of how closer you are for how long (and whether someone is carrying the disease). From that standpoint, you potentially raised their risk slightly, but not get screamed at for 20 minutes high. Verbal abuse is never acceptable.

    17. Observer*

      This person is either a jerk or having issues. Either way, their behavior is NOT ok, and you did nothing wrong.

      The one thing you need to deal with is the refusal to talk to you about work. If you can get by with just emailing her and then doing your thing (eg I’m taking care of the green teapots tonight and will put them in the east store room) just do that and don’t worry about them. However, if this is getting in the way of your ability to get your work done, you need to loop in your boss.

      Lots of luck!

    18. possum whisperer*

      If I’m reading the post correctly,it seems to me that the coworker could have been doing something more productive somewhere else instead of camping out watching the copy machine run for 20 minutes.

  3. Foreign Octopus*

    Has anyone used Docusign before? I’m using it to send a W-8BEN form back to a company I’ve been working with and am struggling a little. I think I’ve done it but how do I know they’ve received the document?

    1. Buttons*

      You can login and see your signed document it will usually tell you if it has been viewed.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I’ve used it a lot both as the signer and the person needing the signature. The program notifies the recipient as soon as you finish signing. It’s been around for years (I sold a house in 2010 using it) and it is pretty standard now.

    4. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      When you log in, there should be an “Overview” in the middle/left of the screen that lists: Action Required, Waiting for Others, Expiring Soon, Completed.
      Click on “Waiting for Others” and you can view all the docs you’ve sent that are not yet completed. You can hover over the “Status” and it will tell you which signer it is waiting on (if there are multiple). You can also click on the down arrow next to “Resend” for additional options – click on “History” and you can view every single step taken, who it’s been sent to, who has viewed it, who has signed/completed, and where it was sent next.

    5. nep*

      I use it as fitness instructor, having people sign waivers. I receive an email when people have 1) viewed, 2) signed/completed the process. You can also click on ‘completed’ on the website in your account.

    6. Seraphim*

      I’ve bought a house using it and am selling a house using it. In fact, I just used it today for something else. Signers receive notification of it being signed as well as a link to the signed doc.

      1. Artemesia*

        We recently bought and sold a house using it too. Everything went smoothly. Our lawyer offered it for our new wills and trusts, but we decided to do that in person with precautions.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s pretty popular for a lot of things. Even the cable company uses it for contracts since you do everything online now.

      You just have to press the “finish” button or whatever it’s called and yes, it goes directly to the person who processes it!

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I usually also just email the person who sent it to me all “So I submitted it, let me know if there’s anything else you need!”

      This ties up the loose ends and helps give you peace of mind. As noted they get confirmations but I trust no B and therefore I always just confirm with the person so they can be on the lookout. If they can’t find the confirmation or there’s something glitchy-glitch it’s on them to say “Darn it didn’t take, gotta send it again.”

    9. Rachel in NYC*

      I’ve been using Docusign for work for 2 or 3 years now. I LOVE docusign- literally would use it for everything and anything requiring a signature if my employer’s AP group would accept electronic signatures on tax forms. (The IRS does- it’s just my employer. So don’t worry.)

      Anyways, the person who sent you the document will automatically receive your executed document as an email attachment. Additionally, it is on docusign.

      My advice would just be to email your the company and ask them to confirm- checking to see if someone from the banked looked on docusign would be inconclusive. Once someone signs a document I send them, I never have to look at that document on Docusign again. I’m sent the executed document and I have a template set up so a copy is emailed to an internal database. I imagine the bank does the same thing.

      [and not NOT giving tax advice but please make sure you fill out the entire W8-BEN if you qualify for anything in Part II. The number of times I’ve seen people not take advantage of tax treaties is sad. So sad. But not giving tax advice. Not an accountant. Not a tax attorney. And this may not be relevant to you. But I REALLY needed to get it off my chest.]

    10. Done with job hunting*

      I have doing some financial things lately and all but one document was either signed and scanned or used Docusign, including a rather substantial transaction. There were no problems. It was the small transaction, an IRA rollover, that required a “wet” signature. Sigh.

  4. curious*

    How is everyone dealing with burnout during this time?  I have had to come into the office during my state’s pause.  I swear my brain just can’t function anymore.  We have a lot of deadlines to catch up on so taking a day off is not possible til later in the summer.  My boss has been laid back and understands we all need a break.  He’s doing everything he can to help.  For example he’ll send us home early for full pay.  The other day he asked me a question that was the equivalent of what’s 1+1 and my brain literally blanked!

    1. Dave*

      I am trying to give my evenings and weekends as much downtime and non stress as possible. House chores are definitely less important and am really considering do I have to do this. Reading relaxes me so there is a lot of that happening. I also find min-breaks super helpful when I start feeling stressed during the work day. Good luck!

    2. Fuzzy Pickles*

      Doing the best we can with what we got, is my goal. My brain is so fried right now too.

    3. Niniel*

      I’m wondering the same. I’m grateful to be an essential worker, but struggling big time with being on top of work. Every day is a struggle and my brain simply doesn’t want to get things done.

      1. Anax*

        Likewise. I’m staring blankly at my to-do list right now, and just… not managing to get things done today. Slept for 9.5 hours last night, and I still want to crawl back into bed, which I think is just my brain processing all the anxiety.

    4. Herding Butterflies*

      Burned out to the extreme.

      My boss has not been understanding at all through out all of this. He was a jerk before COVID and now is a super jerk.

      We are all trying to grab an extra day off here or there to decompress. I am trying to get outdoors as much as possible. I live in a very rural area so this is possible.

    5. DataGirl*

      I’m completely exhausted, grumpy, and stressed. This is our busiest time of year so no vacation until August at the earliest.

    6. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      My brain is dying. I’m relying on caffeine and pomodoros to get anything done

        1. BethDH*

          It’s a productivity method for working in short bursts (like 25 minutes) with full focus followed by short breaks.

    7. Thankful for AAM*

      I never can’t work or focus.
      Right now I have zero motivation, I’m not thinking that clearly, and I’m on my phone reading AAM – so not working. It does not help that 100% of my job can be done at home but I have to come into work, and I’m in FL an a coworker is out pending a covid test.

    8. Nita*

      I’m going to just give up. If I get fired, so be it. I’m on call literally 24-7 between work stuff and family stuff, and I’m over it.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m trying to take midday naps and breaks even though I have to formally log off to do that.

    10. rageismycaffeine*

      The burnout is real. I’m planning to take some time off even if I can’t really go anywhere. Pondering just pitching a tent in my backyard for the sake of “leaving the house.”

      I keep being told to take up meditation/mindfulness and keep not doing it. It was a huge help to me when I was doing it regularly before, but it’s been a long time.

    11. hermit crab*

      Just adding to the chorus of “you’re not alone”!

      I think my entire organization is struggling with this. The org gave everyone a whole bunch of extra paid days off due to the pandemic, and there’s a lot of “take time off and unplug” messaging from management – but when can you do this? The deadlines don’t stop. Only senior-level staff have enough control over their workloads to take time off without over-burdening other staff and/or coming back to a huge backlog.

      Personally, I don’t have care-giving responsibilities, but my evenings and weekends are packed full of non-work calls/video meetings (volunteering, checking in with elderly relatives, attempting to socialize, etc.) and that certainly doesn’t help.

    12. cmcinnyc*

      Breaking things down bite-sized. Not expecting myself to have full concentration. Not expecting anyone else to manage full focus for very long. Some days I can work like a bee and other days I find myself standing in one room wondering why I left the other room, or opening my notebook to jot something down and sitting there pen in hand with no idea what I was about to write. Sometimes you have one oar and the boat goes in circles, you know? If you really can’t take a day or two off, you’re going to be at reduced capacity. That is just a fact. It’s not just you.

    13. Aggretsuko*

      Same as everyone else: try to use your time off from work to relax, put up with it because I have no other options, just keep swimming, feel burned out and miserable no matter what. I don’t do a lick of extra work, but I don’t get paid overtime so I can get away with that.

    14. Green Goose*

      Definitely feeling the burnout. My company is giving mixed signals by saying that they understand that people can’t perform at 100% and that we should take time off if we need it while simultaneously not extending deadlines and piling new projects on everyone.

      To combat burnout I’ve been making sure I spend relaxing time away from the screen in the evenings. I’ve been taking a lot of baths and that’s been really nice, I’ll get my bath all comfy and read a few chapters of a book with a nice candle. I’ve also been learning to make different dinners/desserts that I’ve never made before and it’s using a different part of my brain.

      And of course, if possible, I go outside for some fresh air. We have a small backyard so I try to make it out there to just get out of the house.

    15. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      I’m honestly not sure if I’m experiencing burnout or not? I’ve always had depression and anxiety, which occasionally causes panic attacks, but right now I’m panicking when some clients email me, and I’m dreading going back to the office. I’m not sure if this is my normal, or if I’m fried and this is a sign of the frying.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Not exactly the same situation, but I feel this. There is some stuff happening in both my personal and work arenas that outside of the pandemic would be horrible enough. But I can’t tell if my inability to cope and be resilient is worse now because of the extra stress – I have to assume so.

        Getting outside definitely helps. I’ve been binge watching shows in my downtime to give my brain a break, but sometimes I don’t even have the capacity for that, so sitting outside and just closing my eyes helps.

    16. Retail not Retail*

      I don’t know. My old hip injury flared up and I have zero desire to power through it at work this time around.

      We learned no raises for another six months – at least. And! It occurred to me that we never got any appreciation of any kind for working through this.

      It’s hot, we’re miserable, we’re underpaid, and we’re open to the public.

      I don’t know if this burnout should be worked through.

    17. Kettricken Farseer*

      I feel like my brain has gone to mush. I open up a browser window and then forget what I was going to use it for. I forget what I’m saying in the middle of my sentence. I go to write myself a note and then forget what I was going to write. I have a thought and in the middle of thinking about it, it floats away from me and I can’t get it back. I’ve been lucky in that I’m still able to take PTO just to give my brain a break, but to be honest it’s not helping.

      1. Pickwick*

        Seconding everyone here, especially Kettricken! Mid sentence I lose my train of thought. I have been a bit of a scatter brain all my professional life and have used notepads to offset it. None of my tried and true solutions are helping. Even super nice weekends are not combating weekday brain mush. I just keep trudging through. Hope we all see some relief soon.

      2. Tris Prior*

        This has been my experience too. I find myself just sitting and staring at my screen blankly with no idea how to actually do the thing. I’ve gotten so forgetful that for a while I thought I might have really early onset dementia. I tried explaining it to my partner who was like, “are you not sure of your next step? Do you not have all the information you need? Are there tech skills you’re missing?” And I was like, no, none of that is true, it’s like I just can’t get my brain to kick in at all and take a step forward.

        We have a reduced schedule (and pay) because Covid so you’d think the extra time off would help, but no, not really.

      3. Cat on a Keyboard*

        I’m having this but it’s like reverse-burnout? My work has really slowed down since the pandemic. I’ve never been quite as efficient working from home, but, combined with the lack of deadlines or workload pressure, I’m really losing focus badly. I hate wasting a lot of time when I am neither getting things done nor actually relaxing.

        I guess this could sound like a humble brag, and I definitely prefer my problem to being overworked. I guess my point is that this isn’t a great time for anybody really.

        1. Koala dreams*

          I read an article about that a few years ago. In the article, they called it bored-out. People who were bored-out got sick in similar ways to people who were burned out. The inactivity caused a lot of stress for many people. Maybe there is more information about how to deal with it nowadays, if you search online?

        2. Avasarala*

          I’m with you.
          I’ve been simplifying my to do list and motivating myself with food like a dog. Complete one email, get a chocolate chip.

    18. MindfulnessHelps*

      You have no shortage of replies, but I’ll chime in too. By advice from my therapist, I have been trying to incorporate mini-mindfulness practices every day. At the very least, I try to do a 5 minute mindfulness meditation in the morning before work (just using Youtube to find guided meditations that focus on breath or body scans). Peppering them throughout the day during quick breaks also helps. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not all Zen afterward, but it does help, and the more you do it the better your mind gets at being present and separating your emotions from your thoughts or events around you.

      Also I have started going jogging/walking (and I’m not exactly a runner) with a friend on an outdoor trail on the weekends, and having the exercise while also getting some social interaction has been really helpful.

      When I am really struggling to get going at work, I make ridiculously simple to do lists. Like “send that email to Jane”, “Fill out that form”, etc. I’m still making progress but just at a slower rate than normal, which is better than just being frozen from lack of motivation/burnout.

      1. uniersity admin from home*

        I find getting out for a walk or bike ride, even solo, helps my brain reset some. For me, that generally doesn’t happen completely until about an hour in, though.

    19. Sherm*

      I’m burned out for sure since work has been a non-stop grind since late March, and I’m dealing with all the frustrations of remote work, but I suppose it actually helps that I can’t change the situation, since I find serenity in remembering that. There’s no choice to be made or to agonize over. Counting the days until vacation in August helps, too.

    20. Oh-So-Anon and Almost Gone*

      I’ve been re-evaluating my life choices for about three months now, especially after being passed over for promotion twice and being told I can’t take unpaid leave during one of our quietest times of the year. I am one-email away from doing a career version of that “sweep everything off the table with a backhand” thing, and running away to whatever country opens its borders first.

      1. university admin from home*

        My sympathies. I was passed over for promotion twice at a previous job, and it sucked. I left not long after; I hope you find a better place (both mentally and workplace).

    21. Koala dreams*

      I’m calling in sick when I can’t work due to illness. If you have sick days, now would be a good idea to take some of them. Burnout usually gets worse the longer you suffer from it. Also, get help from a health care provider if your burnout gets worse or not gets better. (A doctor or a therapist maybe? I’m not sure about the proper treatment for burnout, hopefully a doctor would be able to refer you to the right place.)

      I also try to plan activities to recover so that I don’t default to watching TV all the time. I do short walks, listen to music, take time to read a book (15 minutes a day), and write postcards to relatives. In your case, maybe it would be more useful to do calm activities such as watching TV in pyjamas, meditation, bird watching from a window or the balcony.

    22. Quinalla*

      I’ve had to lower my expectations frankly. I CANNOT get as much done as I used to and not burnout. Luckily the management at my company has figured this out and has lowered expectations a little and is giving us maximum flexibility. That being said, I still struggle and have bad days and even got myself a migraine once (I get them from stress and/or lack of sleep). Some strategies that have helped me:
      1. Prioritizing sleep and exercise – I aim for 7 hours of sleep a night minimum and exercising 4-5 days a week, when I slack on this, I feel it and yeah I get migraines
      2. Getting up early to get in at least 1 hour of uninterrupted work a day and use that time for a focus task
      3. Taking lots more breaks during the day and not feeling bad about it – sometimes I use that time to do a mindless household chore, sometimes I take a real break
      4. Getting outside at least once a day
      5. Reading more books again
      6. Asking my husband for help and having frequent check-ins so we both are prepared for each work day on who is doing what for the kids, food, etc.
      7. Making time for zoom chats with family

  5. hmmmm*

    This is a silly question with all that’s going on.    My spouse and I have a lot life necessity, fun and just-in-case financial goals.   We squeeze every dollar out of our paychecks that we can.   We live in a very high cost of living area.  There is a cafeteria where I work.  Breakfasts usually are $5-10/ day; lunch $10-15; snacks and drinks around $5.  This adds up over the course of a week/ month!   People seem to like me here.  They stop by to chat, etc.  However I feel like I am missing out sometimes.  I’ll go to grab something in the cafeteria only to find out there are a few people having bought lunch already sitting together.   Not to sound conceded but I don’t think there is any ill will towards me; I think it’s more of a case where a few people go to grab some random lunch and just decide to eat in the cafeteria right then and there.   I feel like I’m missing out.  Don’t get me wrong.  My spouse and I do budget for things like buying breakfast and lunch, just our budget does not allow for everyday!  Not to sound rude but I have other things I would rather spend my money on than eating in the cafeteria every day.  How do I maintain the social aspect at work while saving money?!

      1. hmmmm*

        Yes I can but I’m still “forgotten”. I think it’s more that most at my office do by lunch so it’s simply walking down the hall to see who is has time to go to the cafeteria. Like I said I don’t think it’s malicious but I think people just realize I don’t buy a lot from the cafeteria. Think about it – theoretically one could easily spend $350/ month or about $3500 / year. I just have other things I would rather spend $3500 on. I’ve tried making a joke – don’t for forget me! There are one or two who do stop by to say we’ll be in cafeteria in 10 minutes, but for the most part I feel like these are spur of the moment cafeteria runs and since I’m not buying it might not dawn on people to come get me. We work in a chaotic environment so it’s not like anyone has a set time to eat.

        1. Mama Bear*

          If you would like to be included, maybe just say so. They may assume that since you don’t routinely eat in the cafeteria you wouldn’t want to be invited. Some people (me) like to run errands at lunch. Maybe ask the person you are closest with if they’ll text you next time. If you usually don’t eat in the cafeteria you can also change your location to eat there more often.

        2. Lemon Meringue Pie*

          It sounds like you might be taking this a little personally? If you know what sort of time they go, just head down and sit with them.

          1. hmmmm*

            I probably am. Just because our office is so chaotic I am not sure when people are leaving for lunch

            1. Beatrice*

              Maybe invite someone to have lunch with you in the cafeteria sometime, and build on it from there? It probably won’t change overnight, but maybe try to get 1 lunch date every 2 weeks at first, then 1 a week, and shift it that way. Before COVID, I set a goal for myself of inviting one person a week to go to lunch with me, just to try to break my personal rut of eating alone or on the run, and it was helping! I tended to just forget the possibility, lol.

        3. Web Crawler*

          Do you have any kind of internal messaging system? My office used to do a “lunch train” where people would (more or less) just say “lunch train!” over and over as they walked to the cafeteria, and whoever heard and wanted lunch could join.

          When we moved to an office with multiple floors, people not on the main floor would get left out. The solution was to create a #lunch channel in the company slack where people would post stuff like “going to lunch in 5 min” and other people would join them.

        4. CTT*

          Have you been talking about the cost with them? You’re really focused on it in your comments, which makes me wonder if you’ve brought it up with them in such a way they’re worried you’ll comment on how much money they’re spending.

          If that’s not the case, it could be that it really is spur of the moment and they don’t think about grabbing other people who aren’t in their immediate area. You said it’s chaotic, so I don’t think that environment lends itself to orderly lunch times.

          1. hmmmm*

            I don’t usually bring up my personal finances. When people comment how “good” I am about bringing lunch I just usually brush it off. If we get into a friendly discussion about personal finances I just say general things like spouse and I set goals and work backwards to figure out where to cut costs. I have never said I’m skipping lunch in the cafeteria because I think it is overpriced.

            I do think it is spur of the moment. I’m just one of those people who gets engrossed in what they are doing and don’t realize lunch has passed until later in the day.

            1. Morning reader*

              Is there one person among the usual launchers you could ask to remind you when lunch time rolls around? Sounds like you get focused and forget to e

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Maybe you could plan one day a week to eat lunch in the cafeteria? You could get the occasional experience without abandoning your financial goals? Or even if you bring your lunch you could still make plans with colleagues to eat together to catch up. I usually work through lunch but I make plans to eat with different colleagues just to catch up – as a teacher, if I don’t plan to chat with my colleagues it won’t happen and those relationships are valuable. You don’t sound conceited! It is nice that people like you – enjoy and good luck!

    4. Buttons*

      My company has a cafeteria but people bring their own lunch and still join coworkers. It is very open and friendly environment, anyone can walk up to any table and ask to join. Our CEO randomly joins a table of people a few times a week.

    5. Mimi Me*

      Can you let them know that you would love to join them for lunch? Grab your lunch and tag along so you can eat your brown bagged lunch while they eat their purchased lunches. You can volunteer to be the person who finds the “good table” for you all to eat at. I don’t see a reason to make this about buying or not buying lunch.

    6. CheeryO*

      I will add that you don’t have to be all things to all people, all the time. You can join for lunch every so often and still be known as a friendly, social person, and you’re almost definitely not going to miss out on any opportunities or any crucial information. I feel like you might be making a bigger deal out of this in your head than it actually is (no judgment, I’m an overthinker too).

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        All throughout the other direction. Dot. When you are getting up to go to lunch, walk past a few desks and say it’s lunchtime, and suggest they walk down with you and you all eat together.

    8. Annony*

      Have you tried being more proactive about inviting people to eat lunch with you? If you never initiate, they may think you only come because you feel pressured.

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        This! Ask people to join you. As you walk, pop your head in an office and say, I’m headed to the cafeteria, do you want to join me?

        1. snoopythedog*

          Seconding. In my old office (and precovid) a group used to go for a coffee break. I don’t buy coffee that often, but I started going along anyways. People got used to the fact that I wasn’t buying coffee but wanted to go along on the walks. It started with me proactively reaching out to people on the coffee walk group saying ‘hey, i’ll need a break from my screen in a bit, can i join for your walk over to coffee?”

          Same with lunches- just reach out at 11 to someone you know usually goes for lunch and ask ‘hey, i need a change of scenery, let me know if you are heading to the cafeteria for lunch today”…and then bring your own lunch when you go. Make sure not to ask the same person every time and soon the group who usually lunches together should start including you (if you they are nice and reasonable people).

            1. Indy Dem*

              I’ve often been in the same boat. I’ll forget about lunch, and then feel left out when co-workers have gone up without me. I started, once or twice a week, to set an alarm (usually in Outlook) to remind me that it’s almost lunch time and I’ll go and ask people to go up with me. It’s really helped.

          2. Coffee*

            Definitely join the coffee break! I get coffee everyday but have no problems with people just coming for a walk/chat.

    9. Senor Montoya*

      Bring a bag lunch, grab a coffee at the cafeteria (or not, if you can’t afford it),
      walk up to the table and ask if you can join them.

      I’m sure the others have no idea about your budget. That doesn’t preclude your socializing with them.

    10. Qwerty*

      Why aren’t you initiating plans? Are you asking them to meet up for lunch? Do you join them when you see the group in the cafeteria (*without* laying on any guilt or “jokes” about being forgotten)?

      People are creatures of habit. If they are eating lunch with the same group every day, then that’s who they think of to talk about lunch plans. If you want to be included and remembered, then you have to make a habit of being inclusive yourself.

  6. Unique Application Questions*

    Hi Everyone, I recently came across this question when submitting an online job application and would love some tips/advice on what the employer might be looking for here:

    “What career would you pursue in an alternate universe?”

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Alex*

      They probably want to know what your “dreams” are. But it’s a crappy question that could become a trap.

      I might say “Researching travel between universes.”

      1. JustStoppingBy*

        +1

        Definitely not the time to provide a real-world answer. That question is a trap, indeed.

    2. Captain Stubing is my spirit animal*

      I believe that the question is looking for what you feel passionate about workwise.
      My current job is working with contracts, but in an alternate universe, I’d be a disaster relief coordinator.
      (the meeting spot of the two — I like to fix things, and get the non-rational to function rationally in a way to make things better for all.)

      If you were going for a job that meant handling confidential information, but said in an alternate universe you’d be running TMZ, they might have a problem.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      I’m baffled. The only thing I can think of is they want something similar to the job opening? Say the job is tech-y, so you say crew member on USS Enterprise? Orrrr teaching, so Hogwarts Professor of Transfiguration? Is it a position with lots of writing, and they’re using this as your sample? I can almost see this as “what career would you choose if you won the lottery / had infinite time and money to learn the prerequisites?” but I would expect that more as a question from a recruiter trying to match you to positions, not from a company looking to fill a specific role.

      1. pancakes*

        I wouldn’t assume it’s about the job opening itself – I think it’s just trying to see whether applicants can write something brief about their interests or hobbies without setting off alarms or sending up red flags. Someone who loves Star Trek, for example, might say that they’d love to work as a Script Supervisor if they could go back in time to work on the original run of their favorite series. That wouldn’t raise eyebrows, whereas someone writing instead that they’d want to go back in time and marry Captain Kirk and keep him chained to a space radiator (?) probably would.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think this is a bad question, especially since there’s no way to know what they’re looking to get out of this question. Do they want you to insist that this would be your dream job? Do they just want to know what your passions are? If you say this is your dream job will they think you’re boring or just trying to suck up?

      I got asked a similar question (some variation on “what is your dream job”) as part of a one-on-one chat with a grandboss at my first job. Me being young and naive, I answered honestly – that my dream job was to not need a job, leaving me free time to pursue my interests and travel and volunteer. And for whatever reason she very sternly said “NO, you absolutely don’t want that – if you only marry for money it will ruin your life and you’ll end up divorced and alone.” I was shocked, why the heck would she assume that the relatively understandable sentiment of wanting to pursue interests free of financial burdens meant I was a gold digger out for a rich husband?

      Sorry I don’t have any good advice! Captain Stubing and some others commented with some good tips, I’d listen to them, but just also be wary of being too honest with this type of thing.

      1. CM*

        What??? A little too much honesty from the grandboss too! And maybe some baggage on her part.
        Reminds me a little of early in my career, when a senior partner at my law firm, one of the few women partners, asked me how I was doing with young kids and a demanding job as a junior associate at the firm, and I said something like, “It’s definitely a challenge,” and she proceeded to inform me that it is not possible to be a good mother and a good associate. So… what exactly was I supposed to do with that advice??

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      I would have Jonny Quest’s dad’s job, where being a “scientist” meant I lived on a private island and was the acknowledged world expert on all nouns. Also there would be hover cars.

      This is more fleshed out than my starting job, which was going to involve a giant battle bot.

      I think they’re just trying to get a feel for who you are as a person. If alternate you is a linguist, maybe it fits some existing team but most likely it’s just a bit of personalizing.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Yeah this was my thought too, and that’s why I’d ask it in an interview — pretty low-stakes way to find out a bit more about a person. (My answer is “museum docent” or “food and cooking expert at historical living museum” both of which fit well with my existing skills and teaching career.)

    7. reelist1*

      Is it a creative position? Are they looking for an answer that involves imagination and creativity? If so, have fun with it! Show your creative side-describe the universe and how your career would serve that universe.
      If not, I think it is a personality test/culture fit test and what they are really trying to say is ‘What would you rather do than this?’ In that case, tread carefully. I would say something like ‘In an alternative universe I would pursue a career similar to the one I have pursued in this universe. I enjoy x,y,z aspects of this career, and if this career didn’t exist, I would look for careers that incorporated these aspects.’
      But this question is a pink flag, consider carefully if you want this position.

    8. Pamela Adams*

      I’m kind of hoping they have an alternate universe available, and are hiring for there.

    10. Elenia*

      I usually pick a job that is a nice dream but nowhere near reality. My go-to answer for this has always been to be a dancer. I danced in my younger days, on stages and my high point was Queens Theatre in the Park! And I would have loved to be a dancer. But it is hell on your body and doesn’t make a lot of money, and so I chose a more conservative path! I pretty that up in nice words and give it to them.

    11. Sasha "Potato Girl" Blause*

      Wow this is a terrible question. I’d probably answer something to the effect of, “the alternate universe version of this one,” because my honest answer — “anything where I don’t have pressure and demands forced on me” — is unacceptable.

    12. Gumby*

      I might start a convo about what type of universe this AU is and how it differs from the one in which I am interviewing. Do people age backwards? Are there social conventions that would seem very strange to us? Do people have different senses (like no one can hear but everyone has telepathy)? How much magic exists and how does it work? Because “a universe just like this one but where you have different talents / a different job history and so would be applying for a different job” is fairly boring as far as alternate universes go.

    13. Emilitron*

      Agreed that is a terrible question. I know what my answer would be (and has been to similar inane ice-breaker questions), but I have no idea if it’s “good” or “bad” by whatever intent the interviewer might have had. I suspect it’s pretty good, though. I say “Maybe a dentist? The first time I had a root canal I was really impressed by all the tools the dentist was using, it was like he was building a tiny intricate model airplane in my mouth – that part of the job is oddly appealing!” Key points are approachability (dentist is a classic career like in a preschool story book) but complete impracticality (acknowledge that the thing I like is not all of the job) and touch on something related to my actual job/skills (I do hands-on science lab work with specialized tools) as well as make it about a casual one-time story not a “gosh I’ve always dreamed of…”

    14. Arts Akimbo*

      TERRIBLE question! But terrible in a way I kind of love.

      What they want is most likely “If you couldn’t be an artist, what field would you have gone into instead?” and I’d say “Botanist,” or whatever.

      But what I really want to do is answer it as written, and say “Time-travelling magic-wielding vampire detective!!!” just to see if they have any follow-up questions.

      1. Koala dreams*

        I like your answer! (And I would read the book, if you’ll write it) I feel like answering “Riding a unicorn across the rainbow!” In an alternative world, I would be able to ride a unicorn, right? (Even though I can’t do anything horse-related at all in real life.)

  7. ThinMint*

    My wonderful boss is retiring at the end of the year. Before COVID-19, no one was allowed to work from home, though most of our work can be done from home. Now, because of COVID-19, it’s clear that none of us will be back in the office until 2021.
    I am mourning my missed time to learn from her. Of course we are still in regular contact, but she was training me to take over. A lot of my learning was watching her navigate managing competing preferences of our customers with grace during in-person meetings. 
    I will miss working for her. She’s the best boss I’ve had. 

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      I hope you will write her a note or an email to let her know how much you value her!

    3. Mama Bear*

      IMO let her know that she’s amazing and consider a one-on-one to get some pro tips. However, be mindful that sometimes the whole “we will misssss yoouuuu” is overwhelming so I’d keep that to a minimum. Wish her well instead. Can you virtually look over her shoulder sometimes before she goes?

  8. Sunflower*

    Job searchers- What questions are you asking employers during interviews to ensure the new job is secure? Esp if you’re in a secure job currently.

    What things are you personally considering when deciding if you accept?

    1. Trying to hire!*

      As an employer trying to hire, I will give you the answer I would give if asked this question.

      No job is secure. As of right now, we are financially ok but I dont have a crystal ball and I cant guarantee anything!

    2. Mimi Me*

      I haven’t used it in a job interview, but I did use it when looking at apartments (previous landlord sold my place with no notice and I need to be in the same school district for 5 years). “What’s your five year plan?” or “where do you see the company in the next five years?”

    3. Twyla*

      I’ll be following this! The questions I’d ask: if there is a resurgence in cases, how do you see it impacting (company)? And then go from there based off of their answer. I’d ask about layoffs and pay cuts, their response to the pandemic so far – how they’ve supported their employees.
      However, I would get in touch with current employees (e.g. LinkedIn, maybe even ask the employer to connect you with someone) to find out about the ground reality.
      Best of luck!

      1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        I would get in touch with current employees (e.g. LinkedIn, maybe even ask the employer to connect you with someone)

        Can you really trust someone the employer connects you with to provide you with an objective answer?

    4. Anon Anon*

      Depending on business, I’ve been asking how they managed the 2008 financial crisis and recession and what changes were implemented as a result of that. That usually tells me quite a bit. If a company tells me that they unfortunately had layoffs, but then discusses how they identified additional streams of revenue to avoid being put in that situation again, then to me I feel like they are on relatively sure footing.

      Although to be honest, there are very few openings in my industry right now. Most of us just feel lucky to have jobs. As there are some companies that have had to lay off 70-80% of their workforce.

      1. quirkypants*

        This would be hard to apply in many circumstances, i.e. tech companies that didn’t exist back then, managers who haven’t been there for that long and don’t have the institutional knowledge.

        I work for an org that existed in 2008 but (a) I have only been there for 4 years and work in a management role and we have no discussed the 2008 recession at all, (b) it is three times the size it was back then, and (c) the business model has completely changed.

    5. pleaset AKA cheap rolls*

      I’m not a job seeker, but I’d ask about how the company/organization is responding to the overall economic challenges of the times. If they say they’ve already done a lot of belt tightening in a thoughtful way, that’s a good sign. If they seem evasive or are just coasting on what worked in that past, that’s a bad sign.

    6. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

      The jobs I apply for are typically grant funded. I’ve got a month left in my current job because a grant is running out, so the question I ask is how long funding for the position is guaranteed. I applied for one yesterday that stated specifically the grant was funded through August of 2021 and the future of the position was unknown past that point. I appreciated that level of transparency.

    7. quirkypants*

      I’m currently hiring and I have preferred people asking direct questions, like, “Has COVID-19 had a financial impact on your business?” and “What’s the business outlook given the upcoming economic uncertainty?” etc.

    8. WG*

      As a hiring manager, I recently had a candidate ask what would happen if she was offered the position and then contracted COVID? Fortunately, I was able to honestly answer her that we would wait for her doctor’s clearance to begin/return to work.

  9. Alex*

    I’m frustrated with something and am not sure if I have a right to be, so thoughts welcome.

    On my team, we frequently have tasks of which each one of us does a small part. For example, reviewing a set of documents, each of us taking a section, or generating a report on a set of accounts, and we each deliver a report of our own accounts. The size of these tasks range from just a few minutes of work to many hours of work.

    With the exception of myself, my team is not very good about completing these in a timely fashion. I’m frequently the “organizer” of these kinds of tasks—as in, I identify the need for them, or I organize them on behalf of another department. Sometimes I’m really just the messenger—another department has organized this and made the request, and I communicate the request to my team.

    I am *NOT* the team lead nor do I hold a senior position on my team. But increasingly, I’m being asked to make sure everyone completes these on time. If it doesn’t get done, I don’t get blamed exactly, but I’m given feedback that I needed to send more reminders or be more proactive to make sure that people were working on it.

    I have my own work that I need to manage and I manage to meet deadlines just fine. I don’t have less work than other people (even people more senior to me are assigned less work, actually). Is it reasonable that other people meeting deadlines becomes my responsibility? Is setting a deadline and sending one reminder not enough to reasonably expect people to have what they need to meet deadlines? I’m not their boss, and I don’t have any authority over them. We are a group of four Llama Groomers, with one Lead Llama Groomer, and I am just a Llama Groomer. (Our boss is the Llama Grooming Manager.)

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Can you talk to one of the bosses and say, I seem to have become the default manager of these reports for our team, sometimes that means I have to cut back on my own work/deadlines to send more reminders and organize things. I’m going to let the team know I am going to back off of taking on this role so that I can meet my deadlines. Or would you want me to prioritize my work differently?

    2. Buttons*

      You have fallen into the trap of managing without authority. Do a search for managing without authority and you will find a lot of articles and tips. What will have to happen is you have to influence them, you can’t manage them, you can’t hold them accountable, so you have to influence them and get their buy in on these tasks. Right now you are approaching it like they have the same priority as you do or understands the deadline that has been communicated to you- they don’t really care. They add it to their to do list but they have their own priorities. One way to get their buy in is to acknowledge their other priorities and ask them if they can get it done before the date it is due.

      1. Auntie Social*

        The other thing is to make the slowest person on the team responsible for the document. He now gets to nag, cajole, wheedle and demand.

    3. bunniferous*

      I can’t speak to whether this is fair for you to have to herd these particular cats, but in my job I have to do similar things (get people I have no authority over to do things on time.) One way I do this is to give deadlines to them when I need it back-and I make the deadline a little sooner than strictly necessary. I am not afraid to nag once that deadline has arrived. I hate to say it but you may have to train them that it is easier to get the task completed in a timely manner like an adult than to have to deal with “timely reminders.”

    4. Dave*

      I understand where you are with this. What has helped me is for the key people them knowing the importance of meeting the deadline and getting it done. I have one co-worker that once we established that and they know my reminders are coming from a stay on track helpful place we are good. I honestly would rather send the reminder (a text or e-mail typically depending on the person / item) so I have what I need or I don’t get more work thrust upon me for them not doing their work. There is another department where this approach is far less effective and everything comes across as a burden to them and so I have setup with my boss that he has told them the importance and when they fail to complete there is some cover. Generally though I find the reminders are worth sending because at the end it is less work even if I shouldn’t have to send them.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, no, this is BS. If they’re going to ask you to do this, they need to enable you to enforce it. If they don’t want to do that, the responsibility/bother needs to go to someone who does. Or if you can’t get compliance you need to be free to hand it off to an actual manager and not have your feedback suffer for something over which you had no real leverage.

    6. Mr. Obstinate*

      I feel your pain; IME this is a no-win situation, but if your manager is the kind to address problems, then the advice from “Thankful for AAM” should be effective. It is a legit tradeoff that your manager needs to make a choice on: either you can continue doing some of their management for them (which will be much more efficient if that part of your role is formalized and conveyed as such to the whole team), or you can be maximally efficient as an individual contributor, but you cannot do both. If your manager wants you to do management for them, then they need to accept that you will become less productive as an individual contributor.

      Of course YMMV. I have had that conversation with my manager numerous times, and each time we end up at option two (shying away from me having explicit authority), but nevertheless my manager and coworkers keep on expecting me to act like a manager.

    7. Bagpuss*

      Who is giving you feedback that you need to do more? Can you speak to that person / people and remind them that you don’t have that authority?
      Perhaps suggest to them that they send requests to your team lead / manager, not to you, so that the task can be appropriately allocated?
      Why are you the one communicating the request to the team? Could you start nominating someone else? e.g. instead of ypou allocating who does what, can you suggest that another person does, and that they let the other department know that they are dealing with the task? If you can arrange to take turns then as your coworkers get a taste of trying to organised, they may get better at responding to you when it is your turn, and if not, it may still help that the other department don’t see you as the go-to person.

      Alternatively, lobby your manager to be given a promotion and authority and pay to manage.

      1. The One True Church of Ecucatholicism*

        ??? Why isn’t the Lead Llama Groomer handling this deadline stuff?

        1. Alex*

          Because he doesn’t really understand the tasks well enough to organize them. He’s….extremely incompetent, and everyone knows it so no one asks him to do anything hard. If the task is at all complex I need to redo his (which is how I will be spending this evening).

          However, that’s a whole other barrel of toxic worms.

    8. Alex*

      Thanks for all the fast replies! Ha.

      To be a little more clear, first, my boss is one of the people complaining that they didn’t meet the deadline because I didn’t send enough reminders.

      Second, I know that no matter how many reminders I send, they won’t do it. If there were a magical number of reminders I could send such that it would get done, I’d do it, but I know that there is not, so the thing that frustrates me is that they all feel that they can just absolve themselves of taking responsibility for themselves and leave that responsibility at my doorstep, no matter what I do. I guess my feeling is–we’re all grown ups, why do you need your hand held? But then again, I am the person who was “asked to organize” the task. I’m just questioning whether or not taking responsibility for some people not completing it is therefore my job.

      To some people’s point–the deadlines are usually mutually agreed-upon deadlines, not something being imposed on them that they don’t have the capacity for.

      1. Mr. Obstinate*

        My suggestion: make a point to over-remind a few times. For the next several projects you are asked to organize, send maybe 50% more reminders than you normally would, including daily reminders leading up to the deadline, so that even your boss would say it’s a little much.

        Then when people still fail to meet the deadline, report to your boss that you *did* organize as asked, and point to the numerous reminders you sent. But despite your doing everything you had the authority to do, even to excess, it didn’t work.

        This might make it an annoyance for your boss enough that they seriously look into why the other team members are not heeding the reminders. Your boss will want to be spammed less, but they will not be able to tell you to lay off the reminders without undercutting their own complaint about you not sending enough.

        1. Alex*

          I do like malicious compliance, lol. I’m not sure I have the nerve to deploy this–certain people on my team already view me as “bossy” and “a know it all.” But yes, it is something I can think about doing.

          (Yes, I’m the only woman.)

          1. OtterB*

            Ooh. Being the only woman on the team changes the dynamic of this, although you may or may not be able to make your manager understand this. It’s putting you in the role of team mom, and it sucks.

          2. Mr. Obstinate*

            Aah, I had not been thinking of the sexism possibility. That sucks and likely makes it harder to dig out of this. That said, it also gives you an opportunity to more explicitly, alarmingly (to your boss especially) call out what’s happening. People might expect you to take pride in your manager-without-authority role (read: martyrdom) and they may take that as license to make you suffer in it… but they would not be as comfortable singling you out for office housekeeping as the only woman once you point out that’s how it looks.

            Also understood regarding the nerve for malicious compliance. It is unpleasant, and I’ve been yelled at here and there for resorting to it; in most cases I gave up because it while it made hypocrisy more obvious, it still did not make people change their behavior. In a large corporate environment it can help to CYA, but in a small one even that might not be worth it because your bosses answer to no one.

            Do your coworkers seem to think that you’ve chosen to be in this position of having the “organizer” burden? Or are they aware it was imposed upon you?

          3. bunniferous*

            If you have the title you may as well earn it. Oh, and you absolutely dropped the lede here, btw. YOU”RE THE ONLY WOMAN.

        2. Hester Mae*

          On one project, I had one person who was well-known for waiting until the last minute. So I had to go from requesting it in an email, to in-person, getting a date to start, getting another date to start when that passed, to letting our mutual boss know, and on and on.

          Later my boss said that I should have handled it better because “I waited too long to loop [boss] in again after the first conversation with him.” Well, ok, thanks. I thought we were all adults here and could be relied upon to do the work or communicate about it. But no, coworker does this over and over again both within and between departments. But I got out of having to deal with it … that is a whole ‘nother story. Not the only woman in the department, but the only one on this project.

      2. Osmoglossum*

        You have been designated as the sole coordinator and that needs to stop. The only way the other team members are going to take this seriously is if they are required — read: held responsible — to organize these tasks. Can you suggest to your boss that everyone on the team needs to take a turn at being the coordinator? So the burden isn’t falling on you every time.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think whoever doesn’t meet the deadline should be coordinator for the next deadline.

          I am giving your boss a sideways glance here. The boss sounds lazy because it sounds like it should be THEIR job to make sure everyone meets deadlines.

          I think the next time you send out a reminder you could tell them that multiple reminders are not working. Therefore you will only be doing one reminder for any given deadline because you need to keep up with your own work. Then stick with it, do just ONE reminder.

          WHEN they complain because they will complain, remind them that they are in control of setting their own deadlines so maybe the group should reconsider the time frame for deadlines so more people are meeting the deadlines in a timely manner.

          I am kind of ticked on your behalf, OP because the boss is not role modeling proper behavior here and making it even more likely that people are not going to respond to you on time. I would go down to ONE single reminder and that’s it.

        2. Artemesia*

          I’d be inclined to have a frank conversation with the boss that you resent being ‘Team Mommy’ — that you don’t want to be in charge of nagging with no authority. Grownups get their crap done. The team leader needs to lead and manage deadlines. If you can manage your time and get the job done, there is no reason other team members can’t once the schedule is set.

          Push the boss to lead. Make the sexism explicit.

      3. Emilia Bedelia*

        A very annoying (but effective) thing that is sometimes done in my org: People will set up a meeting or “work session” to get a task done. As an adult who manages her time and assignments reasonably well, this drives me up the wall. But, I know that the people who set these up are doing it out of necessity, because other people will leave simple things on their to-do list for an eternity.

        Maybe setting up a meeting like this would be helpful for you. If asked about why you’re choosing to set up this way, I’d say something like “The past few times we’ve agreed on deadlines together, the team hasn’t been able to meet them. I know we are all busy, so I wanted to try another strategy to make sure that everyone is able to set aside the time needed. If you have another idea perhaps you could take the lead next time on organizing it.”

        1. DoneThat*

          Haha, I used to work with a guy who would need my help on logistics for events he hosted, and he would frequently schedule “work sessions” that consisted of me sitting at ready while he got his notes and thoughts organized. I didn’t really have stuff to do because I’d taken care of it promptly when he had requested so before… so it was basically 30-60 minutes of watching him work, punctuated with him asking me questions as he thought of them (which could have just been grouped into a five-minute email).

    9. Christmas*

      Alex: It seems like the kind of thing that slowly just became standard without anyone consciously realizes its a Thing. That being said, your feelings of frustration are totally valid. Why do you have to hold everyone’s hand?
      If you’re giving higher expectations and responsibilities, it wouldn’t be out of bounds to ask to be recognized and compensated for that.

    10. Coalea*

      I think you are right to be frustrated! In a previous job, my boss and I would attend Llama Grooming conferences together. Each of us would attend certain sessions (eg, he would go to the Innovations in Llama Shampoo session while I attended Expanding Your Business to Include Alpacas). At the end of the conference, we had to deliver a report summarizing all the individual sessions and giving an overview on key themes across the entire meeting. I did everything I could to maximize the possibility that my boss would be able to complete his work on time (assigning myself more sessions, assigning myself more complex sessions, collating the report, drafting the overview, establishing a timeline, and sending frequent reminders). Without fail, he would miss deadlines and put the entire project in jeopardy. I would end up working nights and weekends to ensure that client deadlines were not missed. Since he was the boss, I was really in a tough position. I tried getting my grandboss to intervene but he was worthless.
      Is the person who gave you feedback about sending reminders your boss? Can you follow up with him/her, explain the situation, and see if you can get some authority to back your reminders? Perhaps if someone in a senior position told the group that you were “in charge” of this, your fellow groomers would be more likely to meet deadlines? Good luck!

    11. LCS*

      I’ve been in a similar position. What I’ve found helpful is to use simple project tracking software or apps. There are a ton of options out there but even something basic and widely available such as Microsoft Planner (which you can add as a free app within Microsoft Teams) lets you log action items, set deadlines, etc. Anyone you assign gets an automatically generated e-mail when the task is assigned. And the tool is built with a ton of pre-populated reports (literally just click a “report” button) and it will show overdue items, upcoming items, high priority items etc. by person responsible. Rather than trying to nag individuals about various items I’ve found it much more helpful to use a tool like this and then publish a public weekly status report to the team. Seeing that other colleagues are completing their work vs. the stragglers being visibly overdue tends to peer-pressure (shame?) them into action. And it’s a lot easier for me because it’s a one-and-done – my weekly time commitment to publish status updates / nag those who are falling behind is honestly a five minute task now. As an added bonus, if you’re sending weekly updates on a task that’s say scheduled to take 8 weeks, it’s not like your boss can tell you that you didn’t send enough reminders when you sent 8 of them.

      1. Artemesia*

        I like this. Is it too much to hope that people who are not meeting deadlines will be in red? or that the tasks in their column will be?

      2. Alex*

        We are trying out some new “organizational” tools, so maybe I can include stuff like this in them. Right now we have only talked about using it for X thing.

        Although, we have tried less high-tech versions of this–everyone fill in progress in a document on a server, etc. People just don’t do it. I really don’t get why–we are not a very overburdened department. They have plenty of time.

    12. pcake*

      If your boss is their boss, why doesn’t the boss give each person a solid completion date and check in with each of them periodically, and if they’re not working on it already, make sure gently that they understand doing this in a timely way is their job? And if the boss needs to keep reminding them, find out what the problem is; if the problem is they need more training, train them. If they problem is they spend all their time defocused or hanging out on Facebook, boss should gently let them know there are consequences to not doing the work they’re paid to do.

      1. Alex*

        The boss also is usually (not always) included in the task, is one of the people who doesn’t complete the task.

  10. ThatGirl*

    I got an email out of the blue last week for a potential new job. I’m not actively looking, but I also don’t want to say no to potential opportunities, you know? I like many things about my current job, but I can see that my manager is never going to become less frustrating, and there’s not really any path to career growth. I had a brief phone interview, and it seems to be right in line with my skillset, so I’d be pretty surprised if I didn’t at least get a second, more in-depth interview.

    Which got me thinking about what’s truly important to me in a new job. Things like pay, benefits, good work/life balance, room for growth … but also a true sense of diversity and inclusion. It would be a largely remote position, even post-covid, but I would really like to work for a company that put its money where its mouth is. The question is, how do I ask about it? (I already asked about how the company was treating its employees during covid and the manager seemed really impressed by that.) What kinds of questions can I ask that get at “how much do you value diversity and how do you show that?” without sounding accusatory? (Also worth noting that both I and the hiring manager are white ladies.)

    1. Alex*

      I have literally asked that question as you describe. Nothing wrong with it. I’ve also asked “How is your company trying to increase diversity in this field?” as I work in a notoriously white field.

      If they have a bad reaction to that direct question, that tells you a lot of information.

      1. ThatGirl*

        That’s true. It seems a tad bit harsh to me but maybe I’m just socialized to soften things :) I don’t think I’d get a bad reaction to that per se but I know if I’d asked that at my current company I would have gotten a bunch of corporate mumbojumbo.

        I also think I will creep around their website and LinkedIn and see how white the faces look. It helps that the HQ is in Chicago so if they don’t seem to reflect the diversity of Chicago that’s kind of telling.

        1. Allie*

          I’ve softened it with “Working in this field I’ve definitely noticed that many of our companies are not as diverse as the neighborhoods we’re in. How is your company working to increase the diversity in this field?”

          Kind of we both obviously know this is a problem (even if it isn’t obvious!), whats your solution. It may be a bit easier for me to ask this as a non white woman

          1. ThatGirl*

            Thanks, I like that idea. I’ll think of a way to ask it that sounds natural to me but that’s a good starting point.

            It’s kind of funny, actually; while I’d be happy for a new opportunity, I would not be upset if a BIPOC (especially a woman) got more consideration than me for this. But either way I want to work in and for places that are welcoming to everyone [and, to be clear, that includes people with disabilities, lgbtq folks, the whole gamut of diversity]. So me asking that is a tiny thing I can do, at least.

    2. lil falafel wrap*

      I would say as someone who works at an organization where DEI is strongly emphasized and something they’re actively working to improve, if they’re a company that does value diversity, equity and inclusion, they won’t be thrown off by you bluntly asking the question at all. It’s become such commonplace terminology that I would say if a company didn’t have anything to say or didn’t know what you meant by it, it’s probably a sign they don’t value those things and don’t have a good culture on the DEI front.

    3. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      As someone who has hired, I would respect and appreciate that question. I don’t think I’d want to work for a company that had an issue with asking about diversity.

      You could ask how the company supports the local community…that answer can be revealing.

  11. De escalating BEC vibes*

    Hi. Is anyone almost at BEC levels (but not quite there) with a coworker? How do you reframe things in your head to de-escalate it mentally? I hope I’m not displaying my annoyance. Camera off zoom is easier than in person meetings and thank goodness we are still wfh.
    But in emails I feel like saying ‘as per last email….’ every time he emails me with a question I’ve answered in the past few hours.

    Thanks.

    1. Dave*

      YES! I do often forward my last e-mail. I try to vent to a no work party so I can express the annoyance about how person X can’t read more then one sentence of an e-mail or whatever it is and try to almost make it a joke. Working with incompetent people sucks.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Also, I’ve completely reformatted emails for certain individuals (ie those that can’t seem to read) with bold & bullet points. It helped keep it down a little bit.

        For a boss that was very known for just not reading anything properly among many other shenanigans, I had a mental bingo card of “Boss Antics” and kept Starburst in my desk to reward a bingo. I also would occasionally pull a Steve Irwin and pretend she was a rogue croc or something silly and internally narrate the antics. It helped a little.

      2. tangerineRose*

        Yeah, I’ve forwarded the e-mail with the info too.

        And as Environmental Compliance says, bullet points are very helpful sometimes. A numbered list can also be useful, especially when referring to the list later.

    2. revueller*

      Honestly, venting has never worked for me. It feels wonderful in the moment but once I released I have a valve to take out every little annoyance I have with a person, I end up using it more often, end up angrier, end up in BEC mode way more often.

      One thing I’m trying to do is, in a moment of extreme frustration, to take a moment, inhale, clench as many muscles as possible and think as many angry thoughts at the person as possible, and then exhale and release. That lets me get rid of a lot of the physical symptoms of anger I feel. It’s a lot easier and less weird to do this in the privacy of your own home though!

      Another thing that’s helped is … pretending I’m completely fine with that person. Being extra professional, friendly, etc. Or approaching them like the behavior they do is completely separate from them as a human being. Because I have many coworkers who I’d get along with well if only they’d stop doing XYZ. Sometimes having talks with the person that boil down to, “Hey, XYZ is causing ABC problems for me. Is there a way I can help you stop doing that/do 123 instead?” Reasonable people respond super well. Unreasonable people just out their unreasonability and make clear that there’s no better way to deal with them than to avoid them.

      2. Beatrice*

        I love your suggestions!

        One thing I do, at work and outside, when I have no control/ownership over the other person’s behavior, is to imagine a scenario where the annoying behavior is acceptable, really picture it clearly in my head, and decide that, unofficially, that’s my narrative doe what’s happening until proven otherwise. It just lets me let go of the problem and focus on more productive things.

    3. Anonariffic*

      I’d be strongly tempted to send him an overly concerned sounding message asking how long he’s been having trouble with his email losing messages- you keep asking me for things I just sent you, obviously they’re getting lost in the system somewhere, let us loop in IT and your manager to make sure nothing more critical is falling through the digital cracks!

      1. Email from Hell*

        Oh, no, I tried that once and now my boss blames “missing email” for everything. He has a habit of replying to part of an email but sidestepping whatever the main point of it was, and a couple of times when I’ve asked him to clarify he’s said he didn’t get an email that he already replied to. What’s worse: because he uses this excuse so often, a lot of our clients think our email system is just really screwed up, and if they have something important to send they’ll send it to all three of my email addresses (we use role-based addresses, and currently three of them are forwarded to me).

    4. hermit crab*

      I have been there in the past! The only thing that has worked for me – and it can be HARD, and sometimes not possible – is to deliberately try to become friends or at least friendly with the person. If I get to know someone a bit, and develop some pleasant or warm feelings about them as a human being, then I’m less likely to be annoyed by little things. You don’t need to be BFFs but think it helps with giving people the benefit of the doubt.

      Of course, that might be too much to take on, especially right now when you’re remote. And that’s OK too! It’s OK to be annoyed in an annoying situation.

    5. cmcinnyc*

      Last week I came THIS CLOSE to having The Conversation *again* with the guy who drives me nuts on the regular about basics we’ve been over before. Like timezones. Which he refuses to acknowledge. OK! I tried. I don’t usually let coworkers walk into obvious buzz saws but this guy is now on his own. This has two wonderful effects: 1) I get less stressed because I’m not explaining gravity to this jerk over and over knowing that he’s not listening because I’m a woman, and 2) he messes up and it’s nobody’s fault but his own and his WonderBoy veneer is getting chipped.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Honestly, when it comes down to this, I take it upon myself to tweak my approaches.

      If they can’t seem to read emails, I expect it and and therefore don’t get bothered by the fact they’re asking questions they should have the answers to.

      I say this as someone who has bosses over the years who don’t read well but it’s because of their severe dyslexia.

      I opt for pity in the end and take it upon myself to manage my own emotions to the frustrations these issues can cause. [That may sound rude, like I’m saying that you shouldn’t be frustrated and they shouldn’t have to change too. But really, you can only change yourself in the end and your reactions. So I always just take the baggage back on myself and digest it. It makes working with very…different and sometimes seriously strange personalities a lot easier in the long run.]

      1. Elenia*

        I found WFH exacerbates this for me, a lot. I don’t have the little casual chats with the person, the friendly bits that make them human, so little things annoy me more. I know not everyone is like this, but lots of WFH people I’ve seen get this mentality – every little thing annoys them about the person.

        I agree with reversing your stance entirely and trying to be friendly.

    7. SarahTheEntwife*

      I don’t know if this will work for you, but as someone who desperately wants people to like them and who has a strong get-along-with-people socialization, it was remarkably helpful to just admit that I didn’t like one particular coworker. We didn’t particularly click on a social level, and if there were two reasonable ways to do something we’d inevitably each pick one and feel very strongly about it. So just deciding that I didn’t have to like her, she didn’t have to like me, we just had to be civil and work together took a huge load off.

      In this case I also tried to disagree with her only if I had a serious issue with her suggestion — it was otherwise a team where we could pretty freely say “eh, that would work but I find X process really annoying; could we try Y instead?” or whatever. But with her I would tell myself to just suck it up if she suggested something first unless it was a case of “wait, the main teapot glazing machine can’t do metallic finishes”.

    8. valentine*

      If you’re responding promptly, maybe filter his emails and have set times when you go through and copy/paste “I answered this earlier today.”

      If you keep giving him the answers, it’s easier for him to keep asking you and he’s going to keep doing what’s easiest/working for him.

    9. Remote HealthWorker*

      I have this coworker and if they are a peer or less, ignoring the email is best. Seriously this works.

      They send an email with their question and you answer it. Then every email they send asking the same question just don’t answer it.

      Then if they escalate it to a boss, and these types usually do, just reply all with a “I’m confused. I answered this on date. See attached (attach the email). Was there something else you were needing?

      They will never bother you again with repeat emails. They are trying to pass blame on you and/or good off or a just that incompetent. None of that is yours to fix. By not engaging it will help lesson the BEC mode too.

      Seriously think about it, does annoying mc BEC face ever bother to get you the stuff you need? Probably not so you definitely don’t owe them repeated answers.

    10. laughingrachel*

      I’m at that level with a coworker who -among other things – works during meetings with her camera on so we can all see she’s working, but messages me after with a bunch of questions that were covered! in! the! meeting! Truthfully I just vent to someone totally unrelated to my job and never likely to come across any of these people, for me that’s my mom. I will get it all out, the real stuff and the petty stuff that only bothers me because of the real stuff, we make jokes about it and then all of the sudden it’s just a funny thing. Sometimes when she does something that annoys me it’ll make me smile because I can’t wait to tell my mom about it? Still might not be the healthiest, but it puts me in a genuinely good mood when I talk to her and that sets a tone for our conversations that is a much better place than the seething resentment I was building up to.

    11. Circe*

      Now that I’ve seen this written out, I’ve realized I have the exact same problem….except with my boss. His managerial duties are relatively superficial. The vast majority of important things get approved by the executive director (who is also my boss’ mom). But everything else is delayed/affected by the fact that he never responds to emails or leaves things until the last minute to approve, only to not have any changes at all. It’s gotten to the point where I’m proactively in a state of annoyance and thinking that he’ll drop the ball on new projects.

      It’s complicated by the fact that he offers zero support, emotionally and professionally, and we don’t click personality-wise. I’m getting all my support from the executive director.

      There’s nothing I can change externally atm. But I probably can change my mindset about it all. Any advice on how to re-set or at least be less permanently frustrated? I feel like I just need to let all this go, but am having trouble actually doing it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Your boss’ boss is his MOTHER? omg.

        Okay. So take everything you have written here, where you say “I” referring to yourself and where you say “my boss”, substitute “my boss” and “boss-mom” respectively.

        Yes in other words, this is how his mom treats him so he is treating you in a similar manner. Picture yourself in his shoes, how well would you be able to provide leadership to your underlings given his set of limitations. He is basically there as a “lawn ornament” and not much else.

        Just in what you have written here, I sense that your boss carries a huge amount of shame/embarrassment from not being allowed to do basic management work. This can go a number of different ways, he might be rude to you OR he might be like working with a large scoop of mashed potatoes instead of, you know, an actual person.

        It’s going to be difficult to let this go because this is a problem in the system of management in your workplace. I am going to assume you MUST stay in this job. I think what I would do is build an even stronger connection with the ED-mom. Maybe you can work your way up to asking her things such as, “I am having trouble getting Boss-son to answer my emails, how would you like me to handle that?” OR “I am having trouble with Boss-son waiting to the last minute for approvals with changes missing, how would you like me to handle that?”

        If you don’t want to do this part, then just think of him as having is managerial wings clipped and he will never fly like most managers fly. And isn’t that sad, really, not snark. It’s sad. There is something buried in the mother-son relationship that has leeched over into the boss-subordinate relationship and it has broken him in ways you may never understand.

        1. Circe*

          Ugh, yes. Thanks so much for responding. The boss and boss-mom thing, as you’ve so eloquently put it, really puts a damper on everything. I never in a million years would have agreed to take this position if I had known what kind of dysfunction I was walking into.

          It’s hard to realize there isn’t much I can do about it, but, to be honest, just seeing someone else acknowledge the weirdness, makes me feel a TON better.

      1. Diatryma*

        B* Eating Crackers. Essentially someone who, for a variety of reasons, you cannot stand and even the most mild behaviors make you angry.

  12. FedAnon*

    I just started a new position and my manager thinks I’m a higher level than I am. It’s the government so I got, say a GS-10 target 11, so I’m a GS-10 but will be a GS-11 after a year. My boss knew *of* me before I applied because I’ve been working in the area for a bit, but he wasn’t involved in the hiring. He now thinks I’m a GS-11 but I have another 8 months before I’m eligible for the promotion. I’m not really sure how to bring it up with him. We’re teleworking so I can’t just drop in and talk to him, and we haven’t set up one on ones or anything. I would’ve brought it up when he mentioned it, but he mentioned it in a team meeting and I didn’t want to call him out in front of the entire team.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Can you just email him and say, at x meeting, you mentioned I’m a gs11, but I’m still a gs10 until Feb 2021, unless something changed already?

    2. Policy Wonk*

      If this is your first-level supervisor (rater), this may be an issue. If it’s your second-level (reviewer) I’m not sure this is an issue. I must admit, I don’t always know the rank of the people who work for me, and often think they are higher ranked than they are based on the quality of their work. If it is important, or if you are concerned that they won’t do the paperwork for your promotion, send your boss an e-mail along the lines of “today in our meeting you mentioned I am a GS-11. Actually, I am currently a GS-10, but expect to be promoted to GS-11 in [timeframe].

      Important note on the promotion. While it is largely automatic in a case such as you describe, there is still a need for paperwork to be done. Promotions cannot be retroactive, so approach your boss and/or your HR at least a month beforehand to make sure the paperwork has been started/is in train so it can be signed off on and effective as soon as you are eligible.

      1. FedAnon*

        That’s actually my biggest concern. I’m definitely working at the GS-11 level (gotten multiple awards; former bosses and coworkers have told me I should be a higher rank) but am stuck in waiting a year between promotions. I’m honestly not even concerned about appraisals because I always get top ratings and only positive feedback, but since he’s my first-level supervisor I’m worried about him not pushing the promotion paperwork when it’s time. Sounds like I just need to send an email.

        1. Deanna Troi*

          It sounds like you know this already, but I just want to note that even though you’re eligible for a promotion after a year, it’s not a guarantee, even if you’re doing a great job. When I took a X/Y job, it was 18 months before I got the promotion to Y. My boss is fantastic and he said I was doing a great job, gave me an outstanding review, and I got awards. But his explanation was that some things require a level of proficiency that can’t be learned in a year, no matter how much you’re knocking it out of the park.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’m not sure how things work in government, but I’m assuming it’s something similar to, in my world, someone assuming the new person is a “Senior QA engineer” rather than “standard level QA engineer”.

      In that case I wonder why it is that the supervisor thinks that you are a level 11 rather than a level 10? Just because of your level of experience?

      I would have suggested you bring it up in your next one-to-one except you mentioned you don’t have them. So next time something relevant comes up I would add it in, like “oh by the way…”. I’d also highly recommend regular one-to-ones (unless they aren’t really a thing that’s ‘done’ in government).

  13. Stuck with Trunchbull*

    I sit next to the Admin Assistant. She will interrupt my conversations with coworkers, but seems annoyed if I do the same. “Mark” came by to ask where Boss was. We were chatting a little when Admin interrupted us and gave him further into. He talked with her and I chimed in about something. They looked at each other and ignored me. I was giving them information about the situation- it’s not like I said something irrelevant.

    It annoys me that she will interrupt my conversations, but isn’t happy if I do the same. There is a clique-y dynamic in the office and they are very snarky.

    Any tips on surviving a place like this until I can find a new job and get out?

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I love Alison’s advice to get out the popcorn and enjoy the show. It is difficult to achieve but a good skill to have so well worth the effort. I tell myself, look, they are paying me x dollars to ignore them, or to do this silly thing that does not use my expertise.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I utilize this tactic with my own snarky office clique. I like to pretend they’re actors in an office dramedy and I’m in the audience just watching everything go down. Although I will admit it can be very difficult to not roll my eyes sometimes.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just remember that it speaks more about her character than anything when she acts like that. Are you senior to her? It sounds like she’s a queen bee in her own mind. Just yawn at her internally because she sounds boring and an energy-waste, don’t bother with her rude behavior and just do what you want, tbh. They never learn, they’re trainwrecks of their own making.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ha! In situations like this for me some days are better than others. Some days I just don’t have the bandwidth to deal. Don’t push yourself to deal when you don’t feel like it. But perhaps you can work into conversation something like, “Whoop, I wasn’t finished talking.” Or, “Sue, I was speaking.”

      Probably your best bet is to let the nature of the question be your guide. There are some questions that are super-urgent and need exact info. Most questions do not fall under this category. However for this level of super-urgent, you can just barge in with the correct info if theirs is not correct. “Oh! I just read an email that our building #3 burned to the ground and now our #4 is on fire. Did you see the company-wide email on this? It was sent out 5 minutes ago.” These are almost life and death situations and they very seldom happen.

      Then there are questions that are important. You can barge in with, “Uh, actually the General Meeting was moved to an hour earlier. So it’s 2 pm, not 3 pm.” This is probably the highest level you will see, but you won’t see it that often.

      Most things you can just let slide. Eventually they will figure out the supply order is not here or where the boss went or whatever. This is a pick your battles technique where you just decide something is not that important and you bow out of the conversation. (Tip: Most things are not that important. I’d pick things that were under the umbrella of “doing my work”, like letting people know meeting times have moved, etc. Don’t leave yourself in a position where you later have to explain why you knew X to be true and you never spoke up. Don’t bow out prematurely if you will get spoken to later for failure to convey info. )

      I have done this with letting the nature of the question guide me and I have gotten some good results. It was definitely an interesting stance to adopt, as it forced me to realize how much of the goings-on was really small potatoes. The annoying part is the necessity to take each question on its own as it meant I still had to listen in order to decide. But at least I got out of conversations quicker.

  14. Trying to hire!*

    We are hiring for an entry level office position in our small company – you would think we would get a ton of applications but a) we didn’t and b) the ones we did get were not very good quality. I don’t understand as I feel the salary is very fair for the position and part of the world we are in. In any case, one of the top candidates we have lives a substantial distance away which we didn’t realize until after the interview. Its not a commute that we feel would work long term as we do have fairly bad winters etc and we don’t want to hire someone just to have them leave in a few months because they are over driving hours a day. (plus they will end up eating up a lot of their salary just in gas – there is no public transport to where we are) How can we approach this with this candidate? This is something I just drafted up quickly but I’m sure there is a better way to ask this question…

    Dear Jane
    We are reviewing your candidacy and are concerned about one item. As you live in “Town a long way away”, you would be commuting 3 hours a day. We feel this is not tenable over the long term. Do you have any plans to move closer?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      This seems like a phone call conversation, not an email. Why not give them a call, say you noticed post-interview, and you’d like to ask some questions about how they would handle it? Perhaps they have a relative nearby they plan to stay with if there are storms, or some other solution you haven’t considered.

      It would also make a difference to me the specifics of where they live. Your candidate may have to commute to have any job and fully understand what they need to do to keep their job commitments. I work with people who make commutes like this. Our weather isn’t terrible, but we definitely get winters with snow and ice, and it is not an issue. They just don’t have good professional options closer. They’re going to commute somewhere to be employed in their field.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I think that’s Jane’s problem, not yours. Presumably she knew where you were located when she applied.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes- this is the candidate’s problem.
        What one can do is make it clear what the attendance expectations are. For example, you could inform the candidate that there is little work from home opportunity, and they are needed to be on-site every work day. In addition, they must arrive by a certain start time (or within a reasonable time frame like within +/- 15 minutes of established start time). This is the case all year long-even in winter when the weather may make commuting difficult. Then ask if the candidate is able to meet this attendance expectation.

        1. Trying to hire!*

          This is a butts in seat type of job (manning phones/door among other things) so not a whoel lot of leeway for late arrivals +/- 15 minutes.

          And it IS our problem if she quits in 3 months after we’ve spent time training her. :(

              1. FedAnon*

                If she’s coming out of school into the role, I’d think she’s planning to move. I applied all over the state/region when I was graduating from college, with the plan being to move within a reasonable distance, but my parents’ address was listed on my resume.
                I agree with others; you should call and ask her about it.

          2. Dust Bunny*

            As Alison has pointed out before: People can quit at any time for any number of reasons. If it’s not her it might be somebody else.

            (Might this be related to the reason you’re not getting a bigger or better applicant pool? “Paid fairly for the work” might not mean “paid attractively”, and I feel like “butts in seats” jobs are often not paid attractively even when they’re paid what people tend to get paid for such positions. I’ve had plenty of jobs where I was paid the going rate and it wasn’t a living wage.)

      2. Green Goose*

        At my company we’ve been burned a few times by people accepting the job when they live about 1.5-2 hours away and they thought they could handle the commute but it didn’t end up working out. It has been hard because it’s usually a few months in, just as the person is getting used to the job and then they quit because they want a job closer to home.

        So even though it’s a Jane problem, the company will have to re-open the hiring process and retrain someone else if Jane ends up leaving in less than a year.

      3. Mama Bear*

        I agree that it’s Jane’s problem. If two people live in the same area but one drives and one takes the train, does it matter how they commute so long as they arrive on time? I agree to make clear your leave and attendance policies because really that’s the part that matters.

        1. Artemesia*

          nah. That is like saying ‘oh let the potentially difficult tenant move in but make the ‘rules’ really clear.’ You can ‘make clear’ all you want, but someone will burn out with a 3 hour commute and leave the first chance they get just as disruptive people once secure will be their disruptive selves. She may plan to move and so a phone call is in order. but I’d look further if she isn’t planning on moving.

    3. Natalie*

      Generally speaking there’s nothing wrong with asking about this, long commutes do wear on people. You don’t specify whether or not your office is working remotely right now, if that’s not clear in the job ad I would make sure you discuss it (explicitly, directly) with her, in case there’s any kind of misunderstanding.

      1. Trying to hire!*

        this is definitely NOT a remote job and we are open due to being an essential business. This was made very clear on the job app.

        1. Natalie*

          Then I would just ask her about it. Rather than being attached to a specific answer, personally I’d be listening for her sounding realistic and flexible. Any kind of experience she has commuting could also be useful, you might want to ask about that specifically if she doesn’t mention it herself.

            1. Liralen*

              In that case, she might not realize what a toll the commute will take on her. Asking her might flag it for her, but she might be so desperate for a job that she will accept anyway and then find later that it doesn’t work for her.

              On the other hand, it might tide you over through a difficult period if you really are finding it that hard to hire someone. In three months time if she does quit, it may be easier to find applicants. Or she may not find the commute a burden until winter, in which case again things might be different in your company and the applicant pool.

            2. LunaLena*

              That doesn’t mean she has no experience commuting? I’ve known people who commuted almost that much for school, since it was cheaper to live at home than to live on-campus or get an apartment. I also knew one girl who was a part-time intern while she was a college student, and she had to drive 3 hours roundtrip to get to our company.

              Speaking as someone who had a 2.5 hour commute for four years and (at a different job with a 2-hour roundtrip commute) once had to live at a co-worker’s house for three days because a massive snowstorm closed off the only way home, I agree with Natalie’s advice. Talk to the applicant, stress the importance of being there, and see if she has realistic expectations about the commute. Explain your concerns and see how she reacts, and then decide if she has a good handle on it. Long commutes are not easy, but it can be done, and it shouldn’t be considered an immediate dealbreaker. Especially since, as others have pointed out, it might not work out for all sorts of reasons beyond either of your control anyways, and that’s just the price of hiring.

    4. Angelinha*

      I agree to just ask about it from a place of curiosity vs. assuming it won’t work for her. (It might not, but give her the chance to explain first in case there’s something you haven’t thought of.) Also, I don’t know where in the world you are, but it stuck out that you mentioned the salary is fair, but that gas would eat up a lot of the salary. Unless you’re somewhere where gas is very expensive or fair salaries are very low, the salary might be more of a problem than you are thinking!

      1. Trying to hire!*

        A 3 hour commute is almost a tank of gas a day unless shes driving electric or super high efficiency car (most people around here drive SUVs or pickup trucks- rural south). Even if you’re buying the cheapest gas, that’s still about $125 per week just in gas much less wear and tear, maintenance, new tires etc.

        We’re in a very low cost of living area and the starting salary is more than double minimum wage – not going to take month long vacations at four star resorts in Fiji but its certainly reasonable for the skillset needed and job duties.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          . . . and she might be driving a small car. Or be looking to move. Or be planning to bunk with a friend during the week. Seriously, don’t overthink this before you’ve called her.

        2. AnotherAlison*

          Most people I know with long commutes do select efficient cars. I mean, my teenager has a $1,500 2000 Honda Accord that gets 30 mpg highway, with a 17 gal tank. Current mileage is in the low 130,000s, and those will go for 300,000, so you would still have a few years before replacing something like that, even with that commute.

          He would get 500 miles per tank, ~$34 per tank. I’d estimate she drives 200 mi/day, so that could be about $70-80 per week in gas. That’s probably about $4000 out of $31,000+ gross salary. It’s a lot, but it really just would depend on what other options are out there. This may be her best opportunity.

        3. pleaset AKA cheap rolls*

          “A 3 hour commute is almost a tank of gas a day ”

          I don’t think so. With typical cars in the US, it’s a tank every two or maybe three days.

          1. Kat in VA*

            It depends. I have a high horsepower sports car, and my 3ish hour commute per day, five days a week, meant I had to fill up once a week. I should note I do not drive in economy mode. :)

            However, there’s a major difference between three hours of commute due to distance (as in ~90 miles of open road driving at ~60mph) or three hours of commute due to traffic (as in ~26 miles but horrendous DC stop-and-go traffic).

    5. aqua arrow*

      Is there any reason that you’d think that she wouldn’t just move to be closer to your area? Especially considering that she was in school before, I think that it would be safe to assume that she’s either a) living at home for the time being and planning on moving to your area or b) willing to take any job right now, even if it means a long commute.

      With that being said, an hour and a half commute one-way isn’t all that bad, I worked at a place for a few years with a very long (2+ hours daily) commute and many of my current coworkers drive more than an hour each way for their job. I enjoyed the alone time and it gave me time to wake up in the morning and decompress on the way home.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Came here to say the first half of it: If they are fresh out of school, they may be planning a move.
        And frankly, were I a recent college grad with few attachments and facing a 90 minute commute, I’d be planning a move too.

      2. Detail Therapy*

        When I graduated from college I moved back home with my mom, but applied for jobs as far as 4 hours away, because I wanted to move *out* of my mom’s house. I know I didn’t ever mention in my cover letters that I was willing to move, and now I wonder if that’s a reason I didn’t hear from very many of those, since I got a lot of interviews in the area where I was living.

        I ended up getting a job two hours away, and IIRC the interviewer asked me straight up why I was applying for jobs two hours from where I lived. I told her I wanted to move to the city the job was in because I had a lot of friends there (which was true) and wanted to take graduate classes at a university there (also true). So I would say just ask the candidate.

    6. Z*

      I’ve been told not to ask candidates specifically about commutes/where they live/how they will get to work. The reasoning was that this can be interpreted as using financial information to make employment decisions. Additionally, there’s a possibility of overt or implicit biases against living in certain areas/neighborhoods. Instead, focus on asking the questions that get to the center of what you’re trying to determine–if you’re concerned about arriving on time, you can stress the flexible start time and ask if they will be able to arrive at that time.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I read one job at where it said that attendance was mandatory. Not showing up for work because of snow/bad weather were not accepted as valid reasons.

        I do think there is merit in asking her how she planned to handle bad weather and a 3 hour commute. I have a friend who took a job 45 minutes away from here. This can easily morph into a 3 hour or longer ride in bad weather. Her plan was to pack an over night bag and stay at her sister’s place which was nearby her workplace. My friend never missed work and never arrived late. Her plan was fail-proof.

    7. Remote HealthWorker*

      Wow you sound really bitter about this job search. It may be better to take a break and reevaluate your candidate pool and search strategy. If your thinking was, our Salary is OK but people are desperate so we will get great candidates…well that clearly didn’t happen according to your letter.

      It seems like you are expecting your favorite candidate to fail. You have harshly turned down a lot of excellent advice. I strongly recommend you reflect on your feelings about the search and get your needs and hire strategy aligned so whoever you hire isn’t taking all that pent up negativity.

    8. AcademiaNut*

      There have been threads on this before, from the applicant’s position. In at least one, the OP wrote back to say that the employer was right – the commute was not sustainable.

      I do think it’s a valid thing to worry about and ask about. And honestly, if it’s a job where being on time is important and she can’t work from home, I’d be very hesitant to hire her unless she had solid plans to move. A 3 hour daily drive is a lot, and exhausting for most people. And that’s in good weather and traffic – throw in highway construction, bad traffic, poor weather, and it can be a lot more than that.

      If an applicant had done this in the past, it’d be different, but for a new grad who really wants a job it’s really easy to rationalize it as being doable, end up three months into the job exhausted with no free time, and quit abruptly. For a new grad, though, I think that “I can move as soon as I get a paycheck” is a fine response, because it can be nearly impossible to relocate without an income, as a new grad isn’t likely to have substantial enough savings to live in a city for months off of it.

    9. Kat in VA*

      To be fair…

      (for LetterKenny devotees, “To be faaaaaiiirrrrrrrr-uh!”)

      …when I was still, you know, actually coming into the office, my commute was roughly 1:20 to 1:40 in the mornings and minimum 1:45 to 2:00 in the evenings.

      I love my job. It’s an admin position (I’m an EA), and I’m well paid…I still spend/t roughly three hours a day in the car when actually commuting (DC area, everyone who lives here now nod wearily with me).

      I also have four children, a husband, and two dogs. That time in the car was literally the only headspace that I ever got, and I miss it bitterly.

      YMMV

  15. PM here*

    Has anyone ever gone back to a job or workplace they left? How did it work it when you went back? How did you preserve the relationship with old workplace to make it happen?
    The reason I ask is because I’m thinking of leaving my really great workplace I’m currently at but if things don’t work out at the new place, I might want to come back. I wasn’t looking for a new job. I love my boss, team and workplace (now that is, there was a time that I was deeply unhappy and thinking about looking). However one of my past clients recently went into c-level role in a startup and is trying to recruit me. They’re offering me almost 40% more than what I make now and everything else- team, workplace and benefits seem reasonable. I’m really tempted by the offer but I know my boss and leadership team will be upset if I leave. I’m trying to figure out if there’s a way to preserve the relationship if things don’t work out at the new place.

    1. Mama Bear*

      I didn’t return to the same place, but a lot of us ended up in the same second company. I would guess that half of us knew each other prior. Basically when I left the first company, I was very professional about it. I kept in touch with a few folks on LinkedIn (which is how I noticed the migration). But mainly I just didn’t torch that bridge so when life came back around again years later, it was a good move. Your boss/leadership may be upset that you’re moving on but try to keep the mindframe that it’s all business – for you and for them. Most people don’t stay 30 years in the same job anymore. This is an opportunity for you. Take it and move on professionally, and try not to think about it as having Old Job in your back pocket. If you keep looking back, you’ll not get the most benefit of the new opportunity. If you have reservations about the new job, then don’t take it. But don’t take it because it’s the right thing to do for YOU, not them.

    2. Laura*

      I temped at a job for 3.5 years left for a permanent job and was hired back permanently four years later. I had connected with two coworkers on Facebook (LinkedIn isn’t a big thing in the dept). I sent a Christmas card a couple times to the dept. The office isn’t in a part of the city I’m usually near so once when I was nearby I stopped into say hi.
      Just generally being a friendly person.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I only did this once, and I went back as a temp. When I left the first time, it was because the job responsibilities had shifted from customer service to more sales-oriented, and I wasn’t happy with that, so I decided to leave. I did so on good terms; they had a goodbye party for me and everything. During a later period of unemployment, I called and asked if they had any open positions, and they had me come in to sub part-time for someone on maternity leave.

      This was in 2001; I actually went to work on 9/11. All we did all day was watch the news (someone brought in a small TV) and stress-eat cookies. In retrospect, I’m glad I was with people I liked. It would have sucked to be alone that day.

      I think it’s also a sound reason to stay on good terms with a former company even if the job itself doesn’t work out. You never know when you might need to leverage that connection in a pinch.

    4. JustMyImagination*

      Give adequate notice. If you’re in a management position with a lot of projects to transition, consider giving more than 2 weeks notice. I’d keep my resignation news to the bittersweet tone when talking to people casaully, since it sounds like it would be bittersweet for you- “I really enjoy it here but this was an opportunity I just couldn’t pass up”, “the team here is so wonderful, I can only hope that my new team is half as good!”

    5. Cedrus Libani*

      I’ve never done it, but I’ve seen it. My team just re-hired someone who was laid off in the 2008-era R&D cutbacks. He was a known quantity who required much less training than the average new hire. It wasn’t weird; it’s a small world, people move on, but we’re not surprised to see them again.

      There’s a guy on another team who prefers working for startups. He’s quit at least twice, but he’s still working here, because he keeps getting acqui-hired (I work at a mega-corporation that loves to eat startups).

      Just leave a good last impression – wrap up your work, make a clean hand-off, etc. Not much more you can do.

    6. JustaTech*

      I haven’t done it, but I have had several coworkers at my job who have left and come back. One of them has left and come back twice. Some of them came back after layoffs, but some left for other opportunities and then came back.

      Generally the people who come back are the ones that were at least good, if not great, at their jobs, and often the ones who have specialized skills or knowledge.
      There is often a tone of “oh, back slumming with us again?”, but it’s kindly meant.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Depends on the company’s situation, in almost all places you could leave on excellent terms but they aren’t going to hang around to wait and see if you come back while you use them as a kind of “fallback position” so it may well be just due to business realities that they will need to recruit someone to backfill the role you are leaving, and then no matter how much they liked you and wanted you to come back, they may not be able to create a position for you… this is a “know your company” sort of thing, as in how much leeway would they have to ‘create’ a position rather than have it approved through 5 levels of bureaucracy at the annual budget setting process…

      I haven’t “gone back” myself but have worked with people who had (i.e. I worked with them during both their first and second term of employment at that company). Generally they came back to different roles that were a genuine vacancy/business need. I can only think of one case where a role was ‘created’ for the person and that was due to extenuating circumstances.

    8. I'm that person*

      I work in biotech where people playing musical chairs seems to be the rule rather than the exception. I know 5 or 6 people in my department who have left and come back. Some were gone for 2 or 3 years, most for less time. One co-worker was gone for such a short period of time she called it her sabbatical.

    9. Jules the First*

      I did it. I sat my boss down and explained how much I loved working here, but that an opportunity had arisen that I couldn’t pass up. He was gutted to lose me, but agreed it was a great-looking opportunity. I gave my notice, we had a boozy farewell lunch and promised to stay in touch. I started the new job and had lunch a couple of times a month with a couple of key people from the old job, went to a couple of events where old boss was, and just generally stayed friendly. A few months into my tenure at NewJob, it became apparent that all was not as I had been sold at NewJob. At my next lunch date I casually mentioned that it wasn’t going as I’d hoped, and three weeks later I was back in OldJob with a refined job description, salary matching NewJob, and a one-year fixed contract. I was thrilled to be back – I loved that job and the people in it – but left at the end of my year’s contract because it quickly became clear that I’d outgrown that job. I’m still in touch (ten years on) with people from that job and still hear from old boss from time to time. It can be done, but you need to be committed to nurturing that relationship and you need to be prepared to discover that the job is no longer right for you.

    10. RowanUK*

      I did this once and it was a mistake.
      I left because the culture was toxic and I was about to be signed off with stress. I didn’t have a job to go to. Around a month later, a temp agency said “we have a place you would be perfect for!” and it turned out to be one of the other departments in the company (I knew and liked everyone on that team).

      While the team was much better, I hated the role and started getting panic attacks from just being in the building. My old manager was not impressed AT ALL that I was temping there because they refused to replace me and she was swamped with work I would have done. I was super awkward for the few days I could stand it before quitting temp work and taking more time off.

      It shouldn’t be an issue to go back in a healthy company (the one I’m in now has taken several people back before and been really happy to do so), so I’d say it depends on the culture.

    11. Jen RO*

      I left after 3 and a half years on good terms, kept in touch with former coworkers, and returned when they were hiring for the same role in another team. As for the logistics – the ex-coworker I was friends with floated the idea to my former manager (‘Jen’s new job has had massive restructuring so she doesn’t feel it will work long-term, she said she’s open to considering our new role, what do you think?’), I met with the manager for an informal discussion, interviewed in a couple more places but his offer
      was better so I ended up going back.

      I’ve been on the new team for 6 years and loving it!

  16. Lemon Ginger Tea*

    I work for a small office and about half of us typically travel out of state by air several times a month. As restrictions are lifting, these coworkers are resuming air travel with special letters of permission and, I assume, using proper safety precautions. They return to working in the office as soon as they’re back.

    I have growing concerns about them possibly contaminating our office. We live in a state that is thankfully doing well and gradually reopening, and these coworkers are traveling to hot spots. They reopened our office a few weeks ago after we all were WFH for the past 3 months. They’re otherwise being reasonably cautious — we all have individual closed offices, and have a policy to wear masks in common areas and reduce face to face time. But I’m worried about this. Thoughts?

    1. The Grey Lady*

      Well, some places are definitely aware of the hot spots. In Kansas, for instance, there is a policy stating that anyone who travels from my state must immediately go into a 14-day quarantine, reason being that my state is one who has not been following the rules and has done nothing to stop the virus.

      That said, I’m not sure there’s really anything you can do about this. But the good news is that your coworkers seem to be following the safety guidelines as much as they can. I think you can trust them to stay safe and to stay home if they think they may be sick. Try not to worry and keep doing everything you can to stay sanitized and safe. Maybe you can talk to your boss about getting a cleaning service to come in and do a deep sanitation of the whole office once a week or something? That was an idea my office threw around, although we haven’t done it yet.

        1. kt*

          If folks are deliberately ignoring such rules, you’re right to be worried — and also I don’t know what you can do :(

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      Id be worried too. My employer will not allow us to travel right now and if we do travel out of state, even personally, we have to tell them and might have to take leave and not work for 14 days.

    3. WellRed*

      My thought is that many of the airlines are not enforcing social distancing, planes can be full up with passengers all, you know, breathing, and forget about mask wearing, even among the employees. I’d be worried too, but I’m not sure what the answer is.

      1. Beth*

        Even if the planes aren’t full and the flight attendants are masked: travelers spend more than enough time in airports to be exposed to each other. I’m more leery of airports right now than I am of airplanes.

    4. Nita*

      Do they have the ability to work from home? If so, I’d bring it up with the manager that it would be a good idea for them to work from home for a couple of weeks after they travel.

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        Yes, we’ve all been WFH for months so it’s possible but not ideal. A handful of them started going in regularly while we were still technically closed because it was preferable. (These are the same ones who are still coming in after traveling now…)

    5. Artemesia*

      yeah they are definitely increasing the risk of those in the office. I hope everyone is masked all the time at work.

  17. Job and House*

    I’ve been casually job searching for a while and had a few interviews recently, but a house has come on the market that is absolutely perfect for my family. Does anyone have experience with how a new job is seen when you’re being evaluated for a mortgage? Am I better off staying at a lower-paying, but very stable, job for now? I’ve been there for 7 years.

    1. Alex*

      You need to stay at your old job in order to get approved for a mortgage (unless your spouse makes enough money to cover it themselves, or you are independently wealthy). Being new in a job could disqualify you for a mortgage.

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        Shoot. On a similar note, I work at a bank that offers its employees mortgages at great interest rates. But of course if you leave, you need to pay the mortgage in full.
        I’m considering buying a house in a couple of years, but getting an employer mortgage is scary because it seems pretty impossible to refinance if I leave, since I’ll be switching jobs. On the other hand, I will have paid some of it off by then, so maybe the LTV ratio could offset the job status?

          1. Indy Dem*

            That sounds… like indentured service? Okay we gave you a loan for this much at this rate, but if you leave the whole loan is due? or does the interest rate go up? And is that actually legal?

            1. Sunset Maple*

              I had to pay back tuition reimbursement if I left sooner than two years past my graduation date. I don’t think that sort of thing is unusual.

          2. Lynn Whitehat*

            Normally you would refinance, and get another bank to take over your mortgage.

        2. MassMatt*

          I would NOT want my employer to hold my mortgage, nor a friend or family member, unless the discount were really large, and even then I’d be leery.

          But why would refinancing be impossible if you leave? You might have to pay a non-discounted rate, but something is wrong if refinancing is impossible. Are they lending to employees with bad credit?

      2. MissGirl*

        Nope, not necessarily true. I quit my full time job to go back to school and was only at my post-graduation job for three months when I made an offer on my house. I had only part time jobs during those two years at school. I had great credit and a good income and was approved with only 3% down payment.

        One thing to watch out for is changing jobs between approval and signing. That can mess things up. Hold on off on a start date until after you’ve closed.

      3. MassMatt*

        I doubt this is true, unless the new job is at a substantially lower rate of pay or the pay is unstable, as in a lot of sales jobs.

        There’s a reason mortgage applications ask how long you’ve been in you4 current job, and then ask about your previous job if you haven’t been in the current one for more than two years. If being in your job for less than 2 years were disqualifying why would they ask about the previous job?

        Mortgage lenders make money by lending money, not denying loans. People change jobs, having switched in the last 2 years is not going to dramatically increase the risk of default.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Yes, I’ve been in this position and the new employer was willing to hold off on my start date until after I’d closed on the house. I literally went from the closing to give notice at my old job, haha.
      I do have a friend who went ahead with a new job and then bought a house, but I don’t know whether it was a conventional loan and whether the same credit checks would apply.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      The bank needs to see steady income usually for two years. It is fine if that income is with a new employer — after all a lot of people buy houses after changing jobs! I think every house I’ve ever bought (I’ve owned five houses) was within a month or two after starting a new job.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        I should specify that I am a senior level risk executive who has been in the mortgage industry for over twenty years, so I know what I am talking about. When you fill out the 1003 (the application) it will ask for your current job, but if you’ve had that job for less than two years, then you will have to provide information about the previous job(s) to go back two years. The bank will be concerned with job hopping and there may be concern if you switch from one profession to a new profession and are not yet established. But it is VERY common and customary for people to buy houses after switching jobs and that shouldn’t be a problem.

        1. Artemesia*

          This. My kids have both bought houses when new to jobs. But they had long employment records, so what the mortgage holder was looking at was stability of the job record not just ‘this job’.

      2. LadyByTheLake*

        I should be clear too that I am assuming that you would be in the new job before applying. If you aren’t and anticipate moving jobs while in the middle of the mortgage process. I agree with others that it would be best to buy the house THEN start the new job. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that.

    4. Natalie*

      You shouldn’t start your new job until the sale and mortgage are completed but that doesn’t mean you need to stop looking at postings. Don’t borrow trouble, as they say. Deal with a desired job offer and a closing in the same week if and when that actually happens.

      1. Artemesia*

        People move for a job and buy a house in a new area all the time. I have done it back in the day and both my kids have done it in the last 10 years. And we know many others who moved to a new community for a job and of course needed a house and bought one.

    5. HR Bee*

      I literally *just* did this. My spouse and I submitted our mortgage application, then I got laid off for COVID, but THANKFULLY found another role quickly. Our bank wasn’t concerned in the slightest. However, I had time before closing to give them two paystubs, my salary was substantially similar (slightly higher, actually) and I did not change fields. Changing fields would have been a much bigger issue, from what I understand.

      I would not change jobs less than a month before closing if at all possible.

    6. Amy Sly*

      I just did this in March. I submitted the mortgage application under my old job … and in the middle of the closing process, I got hired for a new job that had a $15K pay bump.

      To sell the mortgage on the secondary market (which ninety-odd percent of banks and credit unions do) the qualifying income generators need to have worked for two years. They do not have to be at the same job; one catch though: if you are relying on commissions or overtime payments as part of the qualifying income, you must have two years’ worth of records showing that commission and overtime payments are large and steady enough.

      The loan officer needed confirmation of my new job, salary and payment schedule; they called my new boss and accepted my offer letter. From the LO’s reaction, this is common enough to have a well-versed procedure in place.

    7. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I think there are a lot of factors that the bank would consider. Is there someone at the bank you could talk to?

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      This is something that’s always puzzled me. In the UK at least, it’s possible but often more difficult to be approved for a mortgage when you have recently changed jobs. To a degree I can understand that, (“last in first out”, etc I suppose) and I guess there must be some statistical modelling behind it, but I’m not sure what the issue is if the person has a stable history in general (i.e. not just 3 months here, then a gap, then 2 months, a gap, 8 months, a gap…. etc).

      Having been at a company for 7 years (or whatever) just says that the company were hiring 7 years ago and that the person was able to get hired in a job 7 years ago. It doesn’t say anything (from the mortgage company’s perspective) about if you are going to be downsized next week… or how easily you could find another job. Whereas if you have just moved job, it proves that the company was actively hiring as recently as (say) 2 months ago…

      This isn’t a direct answer to your question I know, but is something I’m curious about and wondered if anyone here knows. I’ve never been able to find an answer to this in anything I’ve searched or people I’ve asked!

      The only answer I’ve ever received, which wasn’t very convincing, was that mortgage applications take account of facts as they are at the time, not “things that might happen in the future”… which seems crazy to me since the current situation includes all the possibilities of the future!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        They don’t check the company because the company is not buying the house, they only consider the individual buying the house. In some ways this makes sense, companies can fail and that is a big long process, but individuals can move about with much more ease to find work else where.

        Here in the US stability is defined as staying in the same line of work. So if I was a librarian at my last job and I start a new job as a librarian then it’s really not too much of a problem.

        And just my opinion mortgage companies here in the US are not that future oriented. I am unimpressed with how they calculate living expense in order to figure out how much debt a person can carry. I might be too picky but to me the way they view the numbers is, “Can this person make their first payment? Oh, good. Okay then give them a loan.” The remaining 30 years of payments seems to fall off the radar.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          (This is my additional thoughts, rather than an argument against you, please understand!) … I understand the “companies failing and that’s a long process” but the immediate impact of that on an individual is that the person would be out of a job. Presumably from the fact that the company was known to be recruiting 3 months ago… they are statistically less likely to be “going under” (since most companies have a hiring freeze months before mass layoffs) than a company where all you know about them is that they were recruiting 10 years ago.

          Similarly the person with the new job has shown that they are eminently “hireable” 3 months ago, vs stagnation of skills after being hired 10 years ago.. Again, statistically.

          I have seen people spared from layoffs in favour of others being laid off (when there was a choice of “whom to lay off” among people doing the same role) based on situational factors like “they have just taken on a huge mortgage”, though. (Personally I wouldn’t take that into account at all!)

          I’m so frustrated that all these companies seem to take such a short-termist approach. (Again, not your fault, I’m just saying in general)… “Can this person make this first payment?” — it’s exactly that! I’m not sure what they do in the States these days, but here in the UK we now have ‘stringent’ affordability requirements where the person requesting the money has to detail out their income, outgoings, childcare costs, credit card repayments etc etc… and this gets “tested” against scenarios like what would happen if interest rates were to increase by 1, 2, 3…%? That’s all laudable, but there’s no testing of scenarios like what would happen if they were laid off tomorrow. The current facts are assumed to be the future facts for the next (as you say) 30 years!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I totally agree with your points here, so absolutely no offense taken. Our systems are short-sighted and prime examples of shallow thinking. If we went into a longer conversation here, we would prove out that most lenders are just concerned about making money. The people-factor is non-existent. I think of it as a form of soulessness. We are people, not ATMs that dispense a mortgage payment each month to our lenders.

            1. Amy Sly*

              More accurately: most banks are only worried about making the commission for selling the mortgage on the securities market. Banks who hold the loan themselves (and thus will be the ones stuck with a house that probably won’t sell for the remaining value of the loan if the borrower can’t pay) are a lot more conscientious about ensuring a borrower’s ability to pay.

  18. The Grey Lady*

    TL:DR version: My coworker pointedly refuses to write my name correctly.

    Okay, so, I got married four years ago. At that time, instead of dropping my middle name as it traditional, I chose to drop my maiden name. So, for example (not my real name but just to show what I mean), this is what I did:

    Before marriage: Emily Anne Smith
    After marriage: Emily Anne Johnson

    At our company, one of my coworkers–Jane–is in charge of keeping up with all personal info on everybody. Additionally, we are also a company that uses people’s initials a lot in emails, written materials, etc. It’s just the easiest and fastest way to refer to someone, kind of like our version of shorthand.

    Well, ever since my marriage, Jane continuously writes my name/initials as Emily Smith Johnson or ESJ. I have corrected her multiple times. She always say something like, “Oh, okay,” but then changes nothing. I became aware of this again just a couple of days ago when I received some papers that Jane and had written some initials on. Again, she had me as ESJ.

    This isn’t really a huge problem, as HR and Accounting has my correct legal name on file, so my name is right on my paychecks and stuff like that. It’s mostly just an annoyance more than anything.

    Jane is not normally forgetful, so I don’t think she is forgetting my name. The only explanation I can come up with is that she is annoyed that I didn’t change my name the traditional way (she’s an older woman with traditional values, which is fine), but if that’s the case, she’s chosen a really weird hill to die on.

    I don’t want to fight with her and, honestly, after four years, she’s clearly not going to change it. Since it doesn’t really impact anything, I guess I will just let this go.

    1. Quill*

      I 100% did not grow up with the expectation that you would lose your middle name upon marriage (born in the early 90’s)

      My mom has used various combinations of her name depending on context: in her first profession she was First Maiden Last, which she still uses on facebook to facilitate being found by her dozens of cousins, but in her personal and professional circles since about 2000 she’s always been First Middle Last or First Middle Maiden Last, or First Middle-Initial Last. Outside of situations where you only use First-Last, which is, now that I think of it, most situations these days…

      1. The Grey Lady*

        I was born in the early 90s too, and I 100% did grow up with that expectation. Even my mom had to get used to the idea that I was not changing my name the “traditional” way.

        1. Quill*

          My grandma (born in the early 30’s) didn’t use her maiden name as a middle name consistently either. So it may be regional / more common in specific subgroups? (I come from an embarassment of Catholics.)

          But also my mom and my grandma both had art careers before marriage (and in my mom’s case, well into my childhood) so that might have something to do with it.

          1. Cedrus Libani*

            My mom, a Boomer, went by First Maiden Last, as did both my grandmothers – they told me this was the German tradition. (I am an American Euro-mutt of mostly German heritage, though they all came over in the 1700s, so all that’s left of the old country is the surnames and a couple of family recipes.)

            Still, it’s a weird hill to die on. I would just treat it like a typo and send it back. Return the awkward to sender…literally.

            1. Quill*

              Very similar heritage but I think the difference might be that my mom is boomer gen X cusp and my grandma kept the middle name around for corresponding with her extensive family, where there were likely to be multiples of a first name. (My other set of grandparents divorced… I don’t actually know what that grandma considered her full name.)

      2. Scarlet Magnolias*

        I didn’t like my father so I didn’t want to use his name, so I’m first, middle name, married name

        1. The Grey Lady*

          That’s exactly what happened with me. Abusive father, so I had no desire to carry on the name.

      3. I'm just here for the cats!*

        I’ve rarely seen this so I don’t think it’s super normal or traditional. May e it depends on where you live. I’ve only seen it a few times when I worked with real estate agents.
        I would just talk to Jane and say that your afraid it could cause confusion, especially if someone new comes in and sees the wrong initials.
        Then if she continues after you talked with her bring it up to your or her supervisor. It’s stupid and petty. What if you hadn’t changed your name at all. She needs to stop

        1. Parenthetically*

          Yep. It was not common among my family (Iowa/South Dakota/Nebraska) to do a name change thus. My aunt is the only woman in my family who went from First-Middle-Maiden to First-Maiden-Husband’s.

    2. AY*

      No advice here, just commiseration! It’s very grating when others think they get to have an opinion on a woman’s name change/lack of name change. Just know that her having an opinion of your naming decision and expressing it at work is not appropriate. I had a private COVID wedding in March (just me, husband, and officiant), and I’m already dreading the nonsense after our formal wedding next year.

    3. bunniferous*

      It’s wrong. I would go to her and ask her why she keeps getting your initials wrong and then wait till she gives you an answer. I am also Southern, married for decades, and I also kept my middle name and dropped my maiden name. TBH I wrote my initials both ways for awhile but then settled on the correct way at some point.

      I know you say it is more just an annoyance but it is conceivable there may be a time when this would be an actual Problem so I would still press it. Maybe she forgets your middle initial and remembers your maiden name?

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      Talk to her with concern, mention she got your name wrong again, its been 4 years, and ask her if she is having any age related memory problems and recommend an app to help with that.

      Don’t do that, but I kinda want to.

    5. Ashley*

      I honestly would start asking who is ESJ or if she gives you something marked that just say that’s not me. It is a little passive aggressive but you have tried direct. I find refusing to learn someones name to be flat out rude. (And I have been there and still argue with my family 5+ years later about my name … and my sister who didn’t change her name has the argument in reverse interestingly with the same family members.)

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        Ahh the passive aggressive possibilities are almost endless if “writing initials on things” (the full ‘incorrect’ name is harder to get away with of course) entails stuff like allocating work items or shifts to people, or otherwise attributing something to the non-existent “ESJ”.

        Didn’t pick up that work item? I didn’t realise it was for me, it had the initials ESJ whereas I’m EAJ, etc.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          … to be clear, I’m generally a fan of direct, rather than passive-aggressive approaches and I wouldn’t recommend doing this. But it is amusing to think about, and is one possible approach!

    6. Dust Bunny*

      I’m old enough that I’d just ask her what the heck is going on: Point out that you’ve corrected her multiple times and she keeps getting it wrong, so what will it take to get it to stick?

      (I, personally, would probably cold-stare her down until she answered to my satisfaction, but you maybe shouldn’t twist the knife. Sorry, my real names are all offbeat and I’ve had it about up to *here* with people not taking the time to learn them. I no longer hesitate to make things a little awkward if it helps someone’s memory.)

      Since we’re chiming in, my mother kept both her middle and maiden names, so she has four initials. I never married but I think I’d do the same.

    7. Natalie*

      Have you pointed out to her that it’s a continuous problem and asked her why she keeps messing it up?

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I know one person, total, out of everyone that I know across a variety of generations (going back to people who were born at the beginning of the 1900s), who chose to take her husband’s name and use her maiden name as her middle name instead of dropping it entirely. Personally, I’ve taken two different husbands’ last names and hyphenated a third and never dropped my middle name :P So I guess, if it helps any, you’re definitely not unusual in what you did – if anything, I think your way is the most common? – and you’re right, she’s being REALLY super weird about it.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        Until this post I had completely forgotten that women used to do this (I’m a bit older than the OP apparently) and I don’t think I’ve ever actually met someone whose done it.

      2. Double A*

        My mom did this, but I didn’t know it was “traditional.” And actually my grandmother was a little upset at her for dropping her middle name, because it was a family name!

        But we’re on the West Coast so rules about naming conventions? What are those?

    9. LadyRegister*

      One small way to short circuit this is to repeatedly misspell her name. It’s low stakes but gets the message across that having someone get your name wrong is disrespectful and irritating.

    10. Mama Bear*

      It really doesn’t matter what the expectation was on her end – you changed your name and she persistently keeps using the wrong name/initials on documents and files, so those references to you are wrong. What if there is a legit ESJ down the road and it gets mixed up? Or there’s an audit and they ask who ESJ is? These are company files.

      I realize that this has been a four year fight, but I’d bring it up with her once more, correct or have corrected anything that is wrong, and if she balks or argues, bring it up with the team lead or whoever. If I have to have people sign off on a doc so it can proceed for approval, I need the right names, not what I think those names should be. If I take minutes, I better get every name and title right for posterity. If I introduce someone under the wrong name for a client then that makes all of us look stupid. Your name is no longer Smith. She needs to use your correct name/initials. She remembers that your name changed, but refuses to use the right one. Send her those files back and tell her to fix them as she used the wrong name – again. Names and titles matter and she needs to get it right.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Agree. It puts the focus on her professionalism and keeps it out of the personal range, which a manager or higher-up might not take seriously, plus it’s a legitimate business concern.

      3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        What if there is a legit ESJ down the road and it gets mixed up? Or there’s an audit and they ask who ESJ is?

        I understand your point, and it is valid, and it also makes me think of a wider implication of this. A clash of initials isn’t all that uncommon, for example I’m working in a “dotted line” relationship as part of a team at the moment in which two people have the same initials (let’s say J.D.), and there is an approval step before checking code in to the main system, in which you have to review the code with a team-mate and then put their initials in the “reviewed by” field in the system when they approve that it’s a-ok to go in to the main system. So let’s say I check in something and then “J.D.” approves it. Later we get audited, and there’s no way to tell if it was John Doe or Jane Dorian who approved it.

    11. ThatGirl*

      I do have a few friends who have gone the Emily Smith Johnson route, and some who didn’t change their names at all, but both my mom (who’s almost 70) and I went the Emily Anne Johnson route, and I would never have guessed that ESJ was more “traditional”. That strikes me as a very weird stubbornness to insist that changing your middle name is expected.

      1. The Grey Lady*

        I think it’s mostly regional. I was born and raised in the Deep South. Everything is very “old school” here in a lot of ways.

      2. Nicki Name*

        Same here! I’m old enough to remember the ’90s when Hillary Clinton took a lot of flak for being Hillary Rodham Clinton rather than just ditching her maiden name completely.

      3. kt*

        I’m a Midwesterner, almost 40 yrs old, and I’d never heard of dropping the middle name and slotting in the maiden name. Never! That’s so interesting. I was raised that when you married, that maiden name was *gone*!

        (I didn’t change my name at all — too much fuss.)

        1. Dancing Otter*

          Another Midwesterner here. My mother (born 1918, British parents) informed me that when a woman divorced – not when she married – she used maiden name married name. So, she would be Mrs. Sally Smith Jones instead of Mrs. Matthew Jones, to disambiguate her from the next Mrs. Matthew Jones. I assume her Edwardian mother told her that.

          We were discussing whether I would take my husband’s surname at all, keep my own, or hyphenate the two, back in 1978. I have no poker face, so I probably looked at her as though she had two heads, but she really thought a double last name would make people think I was divorced instead of newly married. (Best to forget her comments on “Ms.”)

      4. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, I didn’t grow up with this. It wouldn’t work for me anyway, since I go by my middle name and not my first. I’m much more likely to drop that instead.

    12. Bagpuss*

      I would start returning anything that’s wrong to her and say ‘this isn’t for me – I don’t know who ESJ is.’
      IF she says ‘of, it’s for you then say ‘No, I used to be EAS, I’m now EAJ, I’m not, and haven’t ever been, ESJ. Can you please correct this and make sure it is accurate moving forward?’
      give it back to her to correct every single time until she gets it right, – that way, it becomes a hassle for her to get it wrong.

      Alternatively, skip that and go to her boss, point out that she has repeatedly been told she is using a name which is not yours, that you have asked her to correct it and she has failed to do so, and you need it to be sorted – quite apart from anything else, if it’s ever relevant to see who was involved, the records will be wrong because they don’t have someone by the name or initials she is using, and other people are not going to know who was meant.

      1. Anne of Green Gables*

        Yes, I support this way of dealing with it. I wouldn’t let it go, just proceed as if it’s a mistake (which it is) and needs to be fixed. Every. Time. Be matter of fact, like of course she wants it to be correct.

      2. Observer*

        You might want to point out that given how everything is going digital, using the wrong initials could REALLY mess with things down the line. Think about it – I’m looking for all emails and documents with your initials, and I’m not going to find all of them, either because her list is wrong so anything other than HER stuff is not going to show up. Or someone uses your actual initials and anything she’s been involved in is not going to show up.

        In other words, she’s messing around with important information. Don’t get into whether your name is “traditional”. This is what your name is, as the IRS, Payroll, HR etc. can attest to.

    13. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d let it go.

      What is the risk — other than your annoyance — if she continues using the wrong initials? Will a document not reach you? Will someone misunderstand whom she’s referring to? Will either of these problems actually be a problem for you? Never say never, but I’m thinking that they won’t be your problem. And even if they are, they won’t be your fault. If they cause a problem, then perhaps some other people will get her to understand that she needs to use your correct initials.

      Signed,

      Someone whose own grandparent went to their grave believing that I’d actually broken the law by not changing my last name upon marriage

    14. revueller*

      I’m sorry, that sounds so frustrating.

      I’d really want to take the unprofessional road and act as if “Emily Smith Johnson” is a completely separate person and be confused about why Emily Smith Johnson is being referred to in an email or written material where you, Emily Anne Johnson, should be. “Emily Smith Johnson? I don’t think I’ve ever met her, does she work at another office? I have no idea whose initials these are, but I know I’m supposed to be the person referenced here and my initials are EAJ. How strange! I wonder who this mysterious ESJ is!”

    15. Someone from VA*

      What I would do is a) have one final conversation about it and then b) start asking for who ESJ is.

      Side note: I can think of two people that took their maiden names as their maiden names so I’m not really sure how traditional that is (maybe not where I’m from).

    16. Database Developer Dude*

      Your name is your name. I would point-blank ask her why she keeps doing this. This is the hill to die on. Intentionally messing up someone’s name crosses a line.

    17. CatCat*

      If it’s something that has to be passed to other people, I’d kick it back to her to correct because it’s confusing when there is no ESJ. Otherwise… if it’s annoying to you, but not offensive, I’d let it go. If it’s offensive to you (and I can see why it would be), I think you should ask her what’s going on. “Jane, my name for years has been EAJ, but you keep referring to me as ESJ, what’s going on?”

      I had an assistant who kept using a wrong name in a document and it turned out it was because she kept on using a template that wasn’t current (so even when she corrected the document, the template wasn’t getting corrected).

    18. cmcinnyc*

      I have never heard of dropping the middle name as “the traditional way” and I’m middle aged. In fact, where I’m from, almost everyone in my mother’s generation and 100% of my grandmother’s generation kept their middle name and changed only their last name. So your supposition that “everyone knows this” is off. You think this person is making an intentional point about your name but that may not be true.

      Also, when people change their names, there’s a period of “is it Emily Smith? Or Emily Johnson?” It’s crystal clear to you, but since other people are not actually thinking about you all that much, and I *guarantee* not giving your *middle name* a thought, ever, I’d be happy she’s got your new LAST name right and just gently remind her of the new middle until it becomes as automatic for her as it is for you.

      1. The Grey Lady*

        I always thought of dropping the middle name as traditional because that’s what I was taught (Deep South), but I’m learning through comments that it’s not traditional at all in other areas. So that’s interesting.

        Also, I realize that there is a learning curve when someone’s name changes and no one really puts much thought into your name. That doesn’t bother me at all. It’s just that my name change happened four years ago, and Jane is literally the only person in the office who consistently (and purposefully) gets my name wrong. And I have been “gently” reminding her for four years now.

        1. kt*

          Yeah, given the info you’re provided, I feel like this coworker is making A Point. Do you have any other friction with her?

    19. RagingADHD*

      For a long time (like 10+ years), I was the only person I know of my generation or younger who kept my maiden name instead of my middle name!

      I was born in the 70s.

    20. Anne Elizabeth Shirley*

      I know! I have had my married name for over 35 years. I married at 25. I hate my maiden name. Hard to spell, hard to pronounce, estranged from my family of origin. In my new position HR could not understand that no- although it is on government documents, that is not my name and shouldn’t be on anything co-workers have access to- staff lists, websites, emails etc. Took 6 months to get through but okay now.
      Since it is annoying and annoys every time she does it, I would opt for the super polite over the top correction every time.

    21. Observer*

      If she is actually IN CHARGE of keeping this information, then this IS an issue, because she’s keeping the wrong name.

      If this is going on anything where your name needs to be (ie anything that’s actually a record, which includes emails, allocation of work and sign offs) then this IS a big deal. Loop your manager in then star pushing back. In public. So, for instance she writes “ESJ will be pulling the green teapot reports” you can respond “Who is ESJ? I was under the impression that I was supposed to pull those reports.” When she responds that YOU are “ESJ” you would respond “My initials are EAJ. To clarify, you are saying that I am going to pull the green teapot reports.” Just keep on doing it.

      PS The way you did it is “traditional” (As much as anything is) here. This is the first time I’m hearing the other way described as “traditional”.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        You and I seem to disagree often on this site, but I fully agree with you (and your other post) about this!

    22. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      On a “naive” level: one of my coworkers–Jane–is in charge of keeping up with all personal info on everybody.

      Then Jane has been repeatedly failing to keep up with your personal info for 4 years (!) even though you have corrected her multiple times. I don’t think she is forgetting your name either. (even as a sometimes forgetful and absent minded person myself, I make sure I get basic details like people’s names right including whether they go by Jonathan or John or John, Alexandra or Alex or Sandra or Sandy or….) It seems clearly either a passive-aggressive statement about you using the “wrong” name, or just strong norms that make her think that ESJ is the “right” name.

      [I wasn’t consciously aware of this as a norm, and most people I know in my part of the UK either keep their original name and don’t change anything when they get married, or change EAS to EAJ as in your example. But thinking about it I do know one person from the south of Ohio (is that ‘the south’? Not really?) who did change their name from EAS to ESJ (who has a “non-traditional” outlook in other ways). I feel sure it must be a regional (?) thing.]

      Anyway, on a surface level, one of Jane’s responsibilities is to keep up to date with people’s personal info, and she has been failing for 4 years to get yours right, despite repeated reminders. The simplest thing may be to just treat this in the same way you would if anyone was repeatedly failing to correct any other aspect of their responsibilities that impacts you.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        I have no patience for any of this nonsense. Go tell this person directly, firmly, and unapologetically that you want this corrected. Be polite but don’t cut her any slack. The “I’ve asked you many times to correct this, but it’s still wrong. What’s going on?” might be effective. If she answers with some BS, say “But it’s still wrong. Is there some reason why you’re not fixing it?” (or if you want to be slightly less confrontational “…some reason it hasn’t been fixed”). And then let her sweat/be embarrassed etc.
        It’s the height of rudeness to be called or referred to by something that is not your actual name.
        Same principle: I didn’t change my name when I got married (over 25 years ago) and some of my in-laws STILL can’t (more like WON’T) get it right. The times this really irks me is on wedding invitations and the subsequent place/table cards at the reception. I’ve written on rsvp cards : “Mr Heathcliffe Smith and Ms Inez MacGillicuddy will attend” and still get “Mr & Mrs Heathcliffe Smith” on the place card.
        People who do this think they’re the etiquette police. They deserve to be called on it, whether business or social situations.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I agree. And I lack patience for this type of behavior, also.

          I wonder if she randomly changes men’s names to her liking also. I hate to say this over something that is so easily fixed, but she is really leaving you no choice. She cannot be deciding married women’s names for them. Period. Since going alone has not brought a solution, then it is time to go to other people. This can be your boss or HR.

          If you feel bad about going this route, maybe you can give her one last chance by saying, “I don’t understand what the difficulty is here. I have asked numerous times for my correct name to be used. If we can’t get this permanently fixed, then I feel that I must ask [boss, HR] to step in to find out where the problems are and what corrective steps need to be taken.” You may like to add that four years has been more than enough time to have corrected the situation so you think it is fair to loop in other people at this point.

    23. KuklaRed*

      I’m probably older than most of you here (62) and I have NEVER heard of this “custom”. Ever. Not even once. Wow. Jane is really picking a minor hill to die on over this. It’s annoying, disrespectful, and just petty.

      Have you tried confronting her directly on this – not just correcting her when she does it, but really sitting her down and telling her that you know she is not generally forgetful and that you feel ignored and disrespected by her continued use of your previous initials? Some people just need to be brought up by the short hairs and told to knock it off.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I have never heard of it either. To me, I have always seen a mix of ways that women have changed their names. Since I never could see a pattern, I just followed what each individual said they wanted.

        Sadly I hyphenated my name. Thirty years later it’s just too cumbersome. DMV had no problem just accepting my name change back then. Now I need a court order to get the name changed to First, Initial of maiden name, last name. I am waiting for someone to take legal action here. I did not need a court order to change my name on my DL when I got married. And clearly no man has to go to court to get DMV to follow a simple request like this. (At the time I was married I was not allowed to have a bank account in my maiden name. The bank told me NO on that one. This was 1983, so not that long ago.)

      2. Lady Alys*

        My mother (born in rural central Illinois in the mid 1930s) dropped her middle name and used her maiden name in its place. So did a neighbor of mine, born in the early 1950s in suburban Connecticut. (My mom’s name got me in some trouble when I was setting up to be her personal representative – I opened an account for her at a financial institution using the wrong combination of names, and it took me months to get it straightened out!)

    24. Artemesia*

      Actually you did change your name the traditional way. In my first marriage I used the Emily Smith Johnson approach and had a heck of a time getting the workplace and social contacts to go with that. I had relatives insisting that I had to drop my old last name and make it Emily Anne Johnson.

      I solved my problem by divorcing, reclaiming my name, and then not changing it when I married again. That one is coming on 50 years.

      What you are doing IS traditional; your co-worker is just a jerk with an agenda. You should insist on her getting your name right and if she doesn’t ask her why she persists in doing it that way. (I say that as someone who prefers her approach myself — but this is YOUR name)

      1. squeakrad*

        I kept my (relatively unique) last name when I got married 30 years ago and there are folx who STILL call me by my FirstName-Husband Last name although I have never used it.

    25. Flabbernabbit*

      I think names are important. It’s your identity. I’d ask her once at least *why* she is doing it and wait intently for the answer. A real answer, not gaslighting. Even tell her that you are quite sure she doesn’t mean to be disrespectful but ….

      Where I am, names changing on marriage are really not common, never mind the middle name, maiden name conundrum. A man changed his name recently at our workplace and he did it when his abusive father died, which was a promise she made to her mother to wait. Transgender was another source. And a woman who just always hated her first name. She had gotten married, but her last name didn’t change, just the first as she wanted to match what she was called professionally with the name she had been using longer personally. I’ve been married 20 years, and name changing on marriage was more common, but I didn’t do it.

  19. merp*

    I’ve been thinking a lot about how much I’ve enjoyed the greater flexibility my job has granted during all this, and how it’s going to be disappointing when it all goes away sooner rather than later. I’ve realized that there are people who do similar work to me in an independent/freelance way and it’s kind of an interesting idea to me. It’s not something I would do soon (or maybe at all! who knows), but it’s nice to think about in a far off way.

    So I’m wondering – anyone who has gone freelance, what longterm prep would be helpful, or was helpful to you? If I were thinking about giving it a shot a few years down the line, what would be smart to start doing ahead of time? (Other than probably build up my savings!)

    1. merp*

      (Also would welcome any general thoughts on freelance, if I should run screaming from this idea, etc)

    2. BRR*

      Build your network so when you start needing work, you have people to go to. And as you already said, savings.

    3. Mama Bear*

      Freelancing for me was good and bad. Bad that I had to do all my taxes (they take a CHUNK). Look at everything your employer is paying for you that you would then be responsible for. Do you have healthcare you would lose? I preferred being a 1099 contractor on something longterm vs short gigs. I also found out that a lot of companies outsource what they don’t want to do. If they need llama grooming help, they will give you the one that always spits. Watch out for that. If you like your job and just want some flex, bring it up with the powers that be. I had a PT WFH option with a prior job that was really nice. I think a lot of companies are looking at some sort of hybrid now that they’ve put a toe in the water. If you don’t want to be your own boss, take the time now to find the job with the schedule you want.

      1. merp*

        This is really helpful, thank you. I worry that the places hiring for my kind of work may not jump on board so much with changes after this, but I shouldn’t assume! Or there’s always other career options…

    4. pancakes*

      The Freelancers Union has a Freelance 101 page on their site that looks useful. Freelancersunion dot org – there’s a drop-down menu in the upper left corner for Resources.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        Freelancers Union also offers some benefit options, I believe. There’s the NASE, National Association of Self Employed, as well.

        Unless you’re an accountant, or have a tax preparer already, I highly recommend researching small business accounting and taxes, both at the federal and state level. California, in particular, has some harsh laws about small business registration and fees.

      2. pancakes*

        I think they do, yes, but they also have a lot of guidance on taxes, sample contracts, how to apply for an EIN, etc. in that Resources section.

      1. Beth*

        ETA: ah, I see. I had not understood your comment.

        I still think the usefulness is rather limited — it will work for a company with clear, consistent job titles and responsibilities, but I personally have never worked for any company large enough and formally structured enough to have them.

        1. Random commenter*

          There are a lot of companies that are large enough for it practical for them. I’d argue that clear consistent job titles and responsibilities are a good way to fight wage gaps.

          1. KatK*

            This this 100x this. I worked at a company that moved to consistent titles and benchmark ranges and lo and behold I got an immediate $20k raise. Company of 100 people, so people in the past would have said it was too small to do this. I am forever grateful to the exec who fought tooth and nail for it.

  21. California Ltd.*

    Have you been through a merger or been part of a company that was acquired by another? What helped you through that process? What do you wish your company had done to help? What do you wish you’d known? And how did it work out for you?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Short answer: “oof.” No matter how much they say things won’t change / will only improve, things will change, and not all of those will be for the better.

      Longer answer, and context: I worked for Startup A. One of our biggest investors, Company B, chose to fully buy and integrate us after I’d been with A for about 3 years. Startup A had about 1/3 the personnel of Company B, so Company B chose to re-org soon after announcing the merger. I think a lot of the changes have been due to culture: going from a startup to a much larger, more bureaucratic company.
      How this personally affected me:
      Pros:
      – I had stock options from Startup A. At the buyout, those were all exercised, and I got a Nice Chunk Of Cash.
      – Company B, being larger, had better/more formal policies around things like tuition reimbursement, Employee Assistance Programs, etc.
      Cons:
      – they moved my team to a different manager and changed the scope of our jobs (previously combination X & Y, now only Y). I think this was a strategic mistake because the strength of my team was our ability to do both X and Y. Plus X was technical and Y was more clerical, so it was a huge change away from my career goals, as well as the new manager was a jerk, so there was almost 100% turnover on the team within a year. Since then, no new hires have lasted longer than 1.5 years. Sucks to suck.
      – I knew who our new manager was, and I hated him. I started job searching after 4 months, and that was only because I was dealing with family/life stuff so wanted to delay. I ended up doing an internal job change which new!manager stalled for almost another 6 months.
      – I like the culture of the new company less.

      How they executed the merger:
      Things they did well:
      – Our new grandboss flew out to meet us and had hour-long one-on-ones with every single person on the team. We talked about what we’d worked on, our career goals at the company, etc.
      – Held meetings to go over the employee handbook for Company B: all our new rules / regulations & benefits.
      – Most teams transferred around as teams, so I still worked with the same people — we just reported to a different boss.
      Things they did not do well:
      – said “we won’t change anything!” and then in fact changed so much. Honestly, they will always change a bunch of things. They wouldn’t buy the group if they didn’t have plans for it.
      – Decreased benefits: our health insurance got noticeably worse, with much higher premiums. Legacy-company-B employess had better 401ks, and it took almost 3 years to roll us into those.
      – reorged / rebranded multiple times. Do I work for Company B, Brand A? Do I work for Company (A and B smashed together)? Or is it just B now?? We had a lot of announcement fatigue because things changed every 6 months. The decisions they claimed were huge (rebranding) affected me 0%, while things the senior leadership said were “marginal” changes had a huge impact on me.
      – they didn’t include our time at Startup A in anything related to time-of-service at Company B. For example, the % of your yearly bonus increases slightly every year. All Startup A employees started at year 0. At least give us half? Some people had been with Startup A for 8 years.

      Summary: it’ll be a change. The technical aspects of merging 2 systems will be difficult, so expect lots of emails like “New features available on X system! Except for legacy A employees, who still use Y. Our bad.” They will adjust your teams and roles– it’s new managers, and they have different priorities.

      1. MassMatt*

        I’ve been through lots of this, my field (finance) is known for lots of mergers, buyouts, spinoffs, etc.

        It’s a cliche, but I would say try to be open to change. It’s natural to cling to the familiar, but you will do better to look at changes as opportunities to learn and grow. Maybe the new software (or whatever) is a pain to learn but better than your old software. Some changes are going to cause hassle, at least in the short term, others will appear to be moving backwards. Try not to get drawn into lots of bitching about it with coworkers, it’s fine to vent but overdoing it can put you in a really negative mindset.

        When organizations change, there is upheaval and need to fill new roles, if you are agile and flexible there can be lots of opportunities for advancement.

      2. Flabbernabbit*

        This is a great summary. I’m in change management and am taking notes. I’ve gone through just such a change but as an employee, not active at leading the transition. The brand thing rings true. In my case, the acquired company “us” was largely left intact because it became a service division that the larger company lacked, as it was product based. But the management clashes were the most interesting to watch. Plus the policies, benefits and overall culture were an adjustment too. I was fairly new though and left for other reasons so wasn’t impacted as much.

        I did notice that people who did well on both sides were open to trying a different way of working, learning about the larger company (that works both ways btw), and put effort into creating relationships with their new colleagues.

    2. voyager1*

      What industry are you in?

      I am in banking (back office) and M&As are pretty common. If you work back office you have a target on your back. If you work front office like a branch, then you have a tiny bit more security if there isn’t a saturation of branches for both companies.

      Been through two. Lost my job both times. Good thing is you generally have a long lead time from finding out your being let go and actually being let go.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Twice. The first time, things DID change and became more sales-oriented, which resulted in me leaving voluntarily. The second time, it was fine until a new VP came in with the aim of hiring people he’d worked with elsewhere, which resulted in layoffs of me and several others across all levels of seniority.

      Not to say it can’t go well. It just didn’t in these two cases.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      At oldjob, my company was acquired, and it did not work out well for me. This will be a little wordy, but here’s what happened:

      I worked for a smallish, employee-owned company, in a department that was a unique division – we provided services similar to but completely different from the main offerings. Think intricate tea cups versus diner mugs. Upper management didn’t full comprehend what we did, but we were consistently the most profitable division so they pretty much let us operate as a unique entity with no interference. The head of our division was a bit disorganized but brilliant at what he did, so while things were a bit chaotic we always delivered.

      The company was acquired by an international conglomerate, and all of a sudden they wanted us to justify every little thing we did. Every step of a process, every hour of a job, we were constantly under scrutiny and had to prove that everything we did was worth it and 100% efficient. We went from “you guys are great and profitable, keep doing that” to “we don’t know what you do and don’t want to, justify your existence to us”.

      I also discovered that my manager was a fair-weather boss – when everything was great they were wonderful, but under any pressure they completely cracked and turned into a monster. Rather than defending their employees, they constantly threw us under the bus. They made unreasonable promises to our new corporate overlords and then immediately pointed the finger at us for being unable to do more work in less time and keep the same quality level. The only time they were ever happy with my work is when I would work my full 8 hours, go home, and then work another 6+ hours but not bill the time.

      My health suffered, I cried constantly, and dry-heaved getting ready for work each day. I eventually quit with nothing lined up because I couldn’t take it anymore. I thought I was just awful and terrible because all of my coworkers seemed to be handling the changes fine – turns out I was the canary in the coal mine and a ton of people left shortly after I did.

      That being said – it doesn’t mean all acquisitions are terrible. A few things to keep in mind if you’re facing one:
      –What’s the difference between your company and the new one? Ours were completely different, and even though the new company insisted they didn’t want anything to change about how we operated, going from a small company with little oversight to a massive one with intense scrutiny was a shock to the system.
      –What’s your boss like? Have you worked with them under less than ideal circumstances and have they shown they are reasonable and will stand up for you? Having my boss stand up for me/my coworkers would have made a world of difference, instead they cracked under pressure and proved themselves to be a yes-man.

      So that’s my story – it’s not universal, and I’m certainly not trying to scare you. I’m sure plenty of mergers or acquisitions go smoothly! I had several factors that made things really challenging. I think if I could change something on my end, I would have jumped ship sooner. It’s important to recognize when the writing is on the wall – if things aren’t going well, don’t be afraid to get out.

      Good luck! I hope your experience is better than mine.

    5. Ronda*

      I was part of 2 mergers of equal size companies…. I am an accounting dept person working on systems.
      Lots of confusion / lack of clear direction for longer than you would think is possible.
      Lots of layoffs…. dont really need 2 CFO, etc.

      Tons of extra system work… Tons of decisions around which systems to use,etc that take much longer than one would hope. double the volume of transactions. Lots of missing knowledge of manually done stuff.

      We had many smaller mergers where the company bought smaller companies. We just integrated the financials into the total and didnt move them to common systems…. It was the plan to eventually get there…. It just didnt seem to happen for some companies that were acquired. They did have new bosses that the head of that company’s accounting, marketing, sales, etc groups reported to at parent company that I am sure they had to regularly explain themselves to.

      So it really varies depending on the merger. Generally they are looking for $ savings in a merger, so things like accounting or product development will get combined / reduced to get savings.

      The first merger of equals was miserable. they decided to keep the people in my location but use the systems for the other company and lay off all those people. So much work and pain.
      The 2nd merger, I left before the systems stuff got into full swing. I wanted to move and they didnt want me to work remotely. I am glad to not be part of this merger nonsense again, cause they were really driving me nuts on my last weeks with their panic mode crap after I had given them 2 months notice.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      At $Previousjob, we were a 100+ year old family-owned business who got bought out by a private equity firm. I saw the writing on the wall and volunteered to be laid off. They accepted the offer and I never looked back.

    7. JustaTech*

      I’ve done it twice (at the same job!) and it can be terrible and it can be OK.
      First thing: it will always be stressful, and there will always be stuff you didn’t predict.
      Second, never assume you’re safe, but how safe your job is will depend on how big the buying company is and how generalizable your job is. If you’re in a position that doesn’t already exist at Buying Company, and your area is why your company was purchased, you’ve probably got more safety than the HR team.

      Here’s how it went for me. I work in a very specialized technical field.
      Round 1: We went through bankruptcy and got bought by a giant conglomerate that already owned a couple of tangentially-related companies, but basically they were a hedge fund. That round was straight up terrible. “We like to move fast” was what they said and they moved so fast they laid off an entire department that is 100% essential for selling our product because they didn’t take 5 minutes to ask what exactly the department did rather than just assuming. (All those people had to be hired back two days later, and got to keep their severance. Several said no and it was a mess getting in new folks.)
      Any department that we had that EvilCorp also had was laid off completely, so legal, HR, purchasing, basically everything you need to run a medium business that isn’t directly involved in making or selling the product. They also off-loaded a huge amount of the work that had previously been done by the support departments onto the remaining technical staff. (I never saw or got an email back from my HR rep the entire time we were owned by EvilCorp.)
      So it started badly. But their stock was really high! And some of the benefits (like tuition reimbursement) were better. Then it turned out they were actively amoral in their business practices, the NYT developed a bit of a vendetta against them, and the stock completely tanked. Which lead directly to …

      Round 2: We were purchased away by a different international MegaCorp, also with little business in our (highly technical and highly regulated field). This time it went much better. Partly because we were already cut to the bone, so there wasn’t really anyone left to lay off, an partly because our new owners are … business owners and not hedge fund managers? I don’t know.
      We finally got an on-site HR person (who was somewhat confused by why we were all so excited to meet her; most people aren’t super excited about an HR person, but after years of getting yelled at for asking for help fixing payroll issues we were thrilled). Benefits stayed generally the same. The new CEO was someone who’d worked for the company before and actually understood what we do.

      It hasn’t been all great; our new owners have asked for some pretty challenging things on crazy short timelines, but they do listen to facts about why things are and are not possible. They are obsessed with org charts (which is hilarious because I still haven’t seen one of my org). But they’ve given us the budget to actually get work done and aren’t constantly doing things to get themselves vilified in the newspaper, so it’s generally a huge improvement.

      All of which is to say: so much of how an M&A goes down for the company being bought depends on the company doing the buying. See what you can find out about the buying company, and if they have a slash-and-burn reputation, get your resume out ASAP. But if they’ve got a good track record of not laying people off just for fun, it might be worth sticking around, if it will give you things you want and need for your career.

      1. Hillary*

        In addition to what JustaTech said – if BigCompany is on your resume it can reset your salary to a higher level in some markets. In my field and geography BigCompany salaries are about 20% higher than the equivalent at a medium or small company, and once you’ve worked for one you become eligible for all of them. Breaking into that first role is hard.

    8. Hillary*

      I’ve been through it on both sides. I’ve worked at smaller businesses that have been acquired/merged, and now I work at the acquirer. One of my responsibilities is business systems integration.

      Good things I’ve seen – we bring our new employees’ benefits up to ours immediately. For most of the companies we acquire in the US, that means their health insurance gets cheaper immediately and they get more/better 401k options & match. Their safety systems will get improved immediately if necessary. One of our recent acquisitions has great systems and their people are really talented who had mostly topped out in their smaller org. They’re quickly moving into regional/global leadership roles for the division they’re now aligned to.

      Not so good – duplicate back office functions will probably disappear from the acquired company. Benefits management, finance, AP will end up moving to the acquiring company even if they think at first they won’t.

      What I wish every company had done in either direction – move faster on systems integrations. There’s never a good time to implement an ERP, but there’s energy during the initial acquisition. If you don’t capitalize on that energy you’ll wonder why a business still runs on Quickbooks five years later.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      2.5 times in my case.

      First time (the “0.5”) I joined a company in which the takeover of the company had already been agreed, and executed on paper, but wasn’t yet being felt “on the ground”. (It was mentioned in the interview but I was still quite ‘green’ and it was an early in my career job so I didn’t yet have ideas about how M&A impacted companies etc). I was recruited as a direct replacement for someone who was leaving for reasons unrelated to the takeover. My role was ‘safe’ through a few waves of layoffs at that company, some related to “efficiencies”/”synergies” (i.e. duplication of roles so we can get rid of one of them and stick the remaining one with the increased workload) and some just related to market business conditions, like reduced revenue and so on.

      Second time, (at a different, unrelated company) we were part of a ‘group’ of companies and our part was spun off and bought by a new parent company. People were scared for their jobs and futures because of this company’s reputation and history of cutting and cutting. (You know how that is!) One of the “big cheese” execs came and gave us a speech when we were taken over, about being “stronger together” and all that. Everyone was afraid for their jobs, but (I assume) also afraid about the answer so didn’t ask in the “any questions?” open forum, apart from one person who I knew quite well, and I knew had a happy go lucky attitude and didnt give a rats ** about corporate politics or who’s “allowed” to ask questions or whatever. He asked the question.. and got the response that (something like) “We aren’t planning to cut any jobs in this [acquired] company in the short term”.

      There was a collective sigh of relief. There’s two types of people hearing “we aren’t currently planning to cut any jobs”: those who take it as reassurance and blithely go on their way, and those who ask “but what about the medium or long term”? Indeed, in the medium term multiple rounds of redundancies saw off about 30% of the people.

      The last time (so far), the (again another one) company I worked at was acquired, and there was a massive cultural mismatch between ‘my’ company and the acquiring company. No one was let go immediately, and it was all very “people” focussed but ultimately it seems to me that people who were let go were the ones who were culturally un-aligned, in the main. I don’t mean in terms of gender, sexuality, race etc but just more “approach to work”, philosophical approach and stuff like that.

      I’m not sure what “helped” me through those processes; I couldn’t point to anything specific. But what I would say is do your research; be aware of the possibilities, and don’t assume your company is there to “help”. Your company, the one being acquired, is being run by people who (at that point) are about to cash out with $$$$$s and as such, at that point are likely to see their workers as just ‘collateral’ at that point.

      Money blinds us all.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        I’ve been through this 3 times. There’s always lots of changes, and many are not for the better. This in high tech, where big companies often eat smaller companies.
        My advice is update your resume and begin at least a cursory job search.
        It takes a while for the dust to settle. Often the acquiring company tries to eliminate redundancy (like “we don’t need two sets of payroll/HR/marketing people”) or they get into the “ we’re now doing it THIS way regardless of whether acquired-company’s way is better”.
        A sadly typical approach is for the big company to do the Vulcan-mind-meld on the small company and then spit ‘em out. Sorry about the mixed metaphor!
        If they keep you it can be a good thing, especially if you adapt to the new culture. But if you’re caught in the “right-sizing” (that barf-inducing euphemism for layoffs) its a PITA.

    10. tangerineRose*

      I have been through this.

      Advice:
      – Update your resume and take a look at what’s out there (you don’t have to apply for jobs, but be prepared)
      – Be flexible – there probably will be changes. At least some of them are likely to be annoying.
      – Know that there might be some improvements, so try not to get too nervous about it.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      My husband’s company was spun off. (Set adrift at sea in a little tiny boat.)
      It was just a matter of time. Two years later Big Empire “merged”*. No. It bought up tiny company. It matters if it’s a hostile take over or if it’s more like a business transaction. I never could tell which one this example was.
      Fortunately, because Big Empire was so big, they perceived my husband’s office in “rural America” as nothingness. Actually the location was not really rural to us, so point in our favor.

      *merged. The word choice is fascinating to watch. I never for once believed it was a merger, that would imply there was some equal footing and there was NOT. We were a little nervous. But we made jokes about, “What’s the name of the company TODAY?” because of the 2 changes.

      Big Empire offered 24/7 service. Things such as illness and death were not good reasons for missing work.
      In the end, Big Empire wanted to diversify by expanding its offering but it just could. not. handle the differences in companies. The business were two different mindsets and two different needs. My husband was separated from the company due to his own health issues which had nothing to do with Toxic Empire.

      From what I heard later, front line people probably were okay-ish. Middle management could walk in on any given day and find their job GONE. They did offer 24/7 service which I am sure did a number on the front line people. Eventually Big Empire let go of tiny company and the tiny company ended up getting bought by a different (perhaps better?) company. It had to be a rough few years there.

      The problem with my husband’s office was also what saved them in this story. The office did not make big bucks. It pulled in some good revenue but no one was super wowed by the financials. This meant that other offices in the tiny company probably had more actions and more concerns. They ignored a lot with my husband’s office.

      My husband was a diabetic. He would not have been able to work the 24/7 work. I think for this reason alone if he had not been very sick and been able to stay with the company, he would have had to look for employment elsewhere.

      Good things to do:
      Write stuff down. Set up files and keep things organized so you know where you stand and what you have been told.
      Benefits were a thing. Make sure you have a good handle on where your benefits are at. Watch to see who is doing a good job of following the benefit changes and keep their name/contact info handy as a reliable go-to source for current updates.

      Trust your gut. If your gut is saying, “Uh, I think I have a problem here….” then get a plan for yourself to get out. No one, anywhere in the company, will help you with this decision. I think this is the scary part, because it sure feels lonely figuring this out on your own.

      Try, try, try not to get involved in all the freakin’ rumors that go around, This is more of figuring out your reliable sources. Do your homework, find out the name of the buyer and google. If friends or family are willing to help you research, let them help you. Read the good articles and read the bad articles, learn about the buyer. Ask yourself, “Under normal circumstances would I apply for a job with this employer?”.

      At home here, we tightened up our spending and our budget. We prepared for problems. You can relax your spending once again when you are able to figure out what your new setting is. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best and probably what will happen is somewhere in the vast middle ground.

    12. Cottleston Pie*

      Been through acquisition a few times. A lot depends on the relationship between the two companies.

      Situation A: During the first dot-com boom, my company was acquired by a larger but mostly unrelated company which had empire building aspirations. Because the product lines didn’t overlap and were in different markets, there wasn’t much change day-to-day.

      Situation B: Company was acquired by GiantCorp. This was a much different scenario. GiantCorp had recently bought our main competitor so it wasn’t clear which products would survive, and in fact the acquisition was dragged out because of antitrust investigations. During this time our management lied to us repeatedly about plans for the future — one manager was at heart an honest guy and was therefore visibly awkward when he was lying. GiantCorp also had a reputation for periodic layoffs. I got out before the takeover completed, but there were years of chaos after that.

      Situation C: Company was acquired by MegaCorp. We had been doing work under contract to MegaCorp for some time, so we were familiar with their management and ethos. Not much changed, though eventually MegaCorp cut some projects which hadn’t been directly related to the previous contract work.

  22. Quill*

    I’m headed back into office on monday to sort the “avalanche” of mail that’s been waiting since mid March, and folks, I am NOT chill about this.

    My boss’ boss says she can’t see my desk.

    1. Jimby*

      Oh no! Best of luck. Maybe have a treat stashed at home for when you’re done for the day (new fuzzy socks, favorite beer, tasty dessert, spring for good takeout…. or all of the above!)

        1. Llama face!*

          Then at least you’ll have one wonderful thing to look forward to! (I really enjoyed that show.) :)

    2. Massive Dynamic*

      Well, good news is that this mail is probably not timely since your boss and boss’ boss were around to watch it fill up your desk? When you start to go through it, keep that in mind and treat it with the same level of urgency that people at a higher pay grade than you did since mid-March.

      1. Quill*

        Oh, I’m just in the last set of people to return to the office. (Been hiding out at parents’ house out of state.)

        Everyone knows that the policy for next week is “you get it when you get it, I’m digging in from the top down for structural reasons.”

        It’s logging all the mail that I worry about… not fond of our system at the best of times.

    3. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      Do you have to do the sorting at work? Can you take it home or is that just not worthwhile?

      1. Quill*

        Most of it has to be passed along via international fedex, so… yeah, most of it has to go back out via the office.

    4. Third or Nothing!*

      Oof, that’s rough. Maybe load up a really awesome playlist, podcast, or audio book to listen to while sorting? I’ve found listening to highly motivating music, like say the kind of music you’d play while exercising or perhaps the Lord of the Rings soundtrack, helps me a lot when doing those sorts of tasks.

        1. Third or Nothing!*

          My library does Libby/Overdrive and it’s been a godsend. Sometimes I listen to interesting audio books while driving or on long runs. Right now it’s Calling on Dragons, and before I started that particular series it was Furiously Happy. I only let myself listen to them while running right now and it’s highly motivating. I’ve only got it set up on my phone, though, so when I do boring repetitive tasks for work I listen to Myths and Legends or Fictional on Spotify since I can stream it through my computer. Or I listen to one of my “Get Sh*t Done” playlists, also on Spotify.

    5. JustMyImagination*

      Try to find an empty box or something you can stash all the mail in while sorting. It will at least give you the calming presence of a clean desk!

      Or bring it into a conference room, listen to music without headphones, and use the bigger work area to organize piles that need similar actions.

      1. Quill*

        … I really should commandeer one of those. Just drag the box of mail and my office phone over…

    7. Grumpy Lady*

      Just did this a few weeks ago at my desk. I sorted by postmark date and thats how I went through them. It took a while but I stayed busy at least :)

  23. Peter Piper*

    Apologies if this should go in tomorrow’s thread, but it is work-related, so I’m posting it here.

    My friend that I worked with at a previous job was laid off and lost her job. The company said that it was due to covid and budget cuts. Well, the company just posted her job and my friend is mad.

    I understand why, but she was demoted to a lower position. She was also constantly late, took a lot of days off so someone always had to cover for her, and was slow to complete work in a fast-paced environment.

    The writing was on the wall. She seems sort of oblivious or in denial of this. My manager said that she was talking to my friend’s manager and her manager was talking about moving her to another position that she could do. (Obviously, they didn’t do this.)

    She has anxiety and other health issues, so I don’t want to upset her and tell her anything. I feel bad for her though.

    Is it best to say nothing in this situation?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      . . . I wouldn’t, at least not about this job, which is water under the bridge. It sounds like there were plenty of reasons to let her go and you’re better off encouraging her to move forward than to look back.

    3. Web Crawler*

      It depends. If you feel like she’s actually looking for answers over what happened, you could try to lead her to the conclusion yourself. (I would first ask- what do you think happened? in this situation)

      But if she’s just venting, then I agree with Dust Bunny- encourage her to look forward instead.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      This sounds like a very sure way to upset your friend and potentially damage your friendship. I would stay out of it unless she asks for advice.

    5. The Grey Lady*

      I don’t think there’s much you can do. But I will say that the company should have been upfront with her and not used Covid as a cover. If they really laid her off because of performance issues, then they should have told her that.

    6. Bagpuss*

      Is she asking you for advice?
      I don’t think you have any obligation to say anything to her if she isn’t.
      You could perhaps focus on encouraging her to apply for new jobs.

      1. Peter Piper*

        No, but I feel guilty because I know that her manager was looking into other positions for her. I know that she wouldn’t believe me and it would just end up hurting her feelings.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          In this case, then you have to let that part of the story go.
          You can say things like, “Oh gosh, I am so sorry (which is true as you care). I hope you find something else soon! (also true).”

          You might be able to find supportive things to say about how she is handling her health issues. This would actually be more to the point anyway. If you talked about the problems at work, those problems were only a symptom of something larger for her. Talking about problems with her old job would lead to a discussion of health issues. No matter what you do you’d end up talking about health issues either way, so that is the core problem. The lateness, absences etc, are not core problems.

    7. Where’s the Orchestra?*

      Agreed with just not saying anything. There were many really legit reasons to let her go – they just took advantage of COVID to try and soften the blow.

    8. Not So Negative Nelly*

      Say nothing. It’ll only rub salt in the wound. She needs to look forward and not back. The only exception would be if she asks for input.

    9. Green Goose*

      I had a former coworker like this, she did slightly below the bare minimum but was always incensed when she was not considered for promotions. She did not seem to grasp that her actions impacted her ability to move up, but I don’t think she would have taken too kindly to me pointing it out.

      I didn’t say anything because my thought process was > if she thought it was okay to watch youtube videos in front of her coworkers and come in late/leave early while they all worked she probably would not be open to critical feedback.

    11. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Anytime I have been this person (your friend), I had to learn the lessons on my own. If she asks for advice, give it. But don’t offer unless asked.

    12. MassMatt*

      What would you say that would help? Telling her they canned her because she was a bad employee and that she should have seen it coming is not going to help her. Saying you heard rumors from managers that they were thinking of moving her around would be even worse.

      Be supportive of her, try help her focus on getting her resume together and started on her job search, and help her network. Maybe she can look for something better suited?

  24. MyCorona*

    Just found out I will not be moving forward in the interviewing process for a job I applied for and I am pretty disappointed and discouraged, even though I knew it was a long shot. I’m hopeful that I find something interesting and challenging soon. I am incredibly lucky to still have a job!

    1. The Grey Lady*

      Stay positive! One of my mentors used to say that every “no” just gets you that much closer to your “yes!”

    2. Christmas*

      True! My Dad always said, “The best way to find a job is to have a job.” Thank goodness you still have something while you continue to look. I hope you find the perfect role soon!! You’ll get there, don’t give up!!!

    3. MassMatt*

      Sorry this happened, job searching is hard and rejections take a toll on your self-esteem, it’s really hard not to take it personally.

      I try to focus on the positives—OK, I didn’t get that one, but I got more experience interviewing and will be better prepared for the next one, plus I know more about that company now, and have met some people there.

      Good luck!

  25. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Whargarbl. Four weeks ago, Spouse got 2 days notice that their employer was sending them to the other side of the country for two weeks. When Spouse got home, they quarantined in their home office for five days, then got tested (recommendation for asymptomatic testing is 4-7 days past suspected exposure; earlier than that has a much higher risk of false negative) and the test took another four days to come back negative. Spouse has now been out of quarantine for five days, and … this morning, about an hour ago, Spouse was informed that they’re being sent BACK to the same site (which is in one of the states currently in the news for massive huge Covid case increases, no less) on Monday morning for another two weeks. WHO EVEN DOES THIS.

    On top of that, when Spouse travels for work, they end up having to work weekends, will almost certainly end up having to work the holiday, and putting in 10-12 hour days every day to boot, including those weekend/holiday days. So this will be four weeks out of six that were 10-12 hour days with no days off. And Spouse is salaried exempt and REALLY bad at setting boundaries with their employer.

    1. Picard*

      Sounds like Spouse needs to put on their big girl panties and set some boundaries. Nothing you can do vis a vis work.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Actually there are things, OP can do such as helping the spouse to figure out what to say and how to find talking points that would actually have weight with their employer.

        I really doubt that spouse needs tips about how to get dressed, though!

    2. valentine*

      Spouse is risking your life as well as theirs. What boundary are you willing to set with them?

      2. Annie Moose*

        This seems a bit overblown of a response! Nothing in OP’s post indicates that their spouse is being cavalier with OP’s health.

        1. MassMatt*

          No, but there’s plenty to indicate the spouse’s EMPLOYER is being cavalier with their health.

      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        You mean the part where, when he gets home again, he stays closed in his office and doesn’t come within 20 feet of anybody else until he gets a negative test result?

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          I think you should definitely email his boss and tell them the job is “encroaching on your relationship.” (Ok, definitely NOT that!!)

          Seriously though, this sounds rough, and I hope he can find a way to push back on the travel. Unless you are my sister-in-law, in which case I can only say I’m sorry he never pushes back on the travel!

        2. valentine*

          I’m sure it’s easier for the employer to stop ordering Spouse to risk lives than it is for Spouse to say no, but Spouse is the one in your sphere of influence. Why is Spouse’s lack of boundaries a given and not, at the very least, a work in progress? Condoning Spouse’s lack of boundaries, and expecting others not to steamroll him, isn’t sustainable. What is sustainable is holding Spouse responsible for creating and enforcing boundaries so that he can be the partner you need.

  26. OwlStory*

    I work for a county government. I finally went into work on Wednesday to pick up some supplies and found a thank you note from someone from a group I occasionally serve (think early childhood related program). I’ve been working with them for about three years now. The thank you note had two gift cards in it ($50 to a large chain store). I don’t know what to do. The gift is sweet, but I’m almost positive it is quite inappropriate as a government employee to accept such a generous gift. How do I resolve this? Do I bring it up to my boss? Send them back? I’d much prefer that they spend the money for the organization for the people they serve, not me for doing my job.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      My govt job requires reporting of any gifts over a certain value and in practice, requires the form for any gifts. I hate the paperwork so much that I return everything of any value (even a few dollars worth) that anyone gives me.

      I’d return it to them and let them know you cannot accept gifts but appreciate the thought so much.

    2. Ashley*

      When in doubt ask the boss. They also might be able to give you language for the rejection because there are typically limits. Maybe yours is over $50 but I am used to $20 for stuff government related.

    3. Federal Employee*

      Contact your boss, accepting those gift cards would probably be an ethics violation. I’m a federal employee and accepting a gift like that would get me in a lot of trouble.

    4. Brownie*

      Check with your ethics office if you have one, the employee rules handbook otherwise. There should be a section in there about accepting gifts, what’s allowed and what’s not, and if there’s a procedure for sending the cards back. It’s possible that kind of thank you is allowed, but only if the funds are spent/dispersed in such a way that the whole office/department can partake so it avoids favoritism. That’s something which can happen if the relationship with the customer is such that returning the cards would worsen the client relationship. Again, check with your boss and/or ethics department. A good script would be “Hey boss, someone at program mentioned they’d like to send me a thank you gift card and I realized I don’t know how to handle it if they do.” I’d be wary of telling my boss right off the bat that they did send cards, but that’s because I know my boss doesn’t always know policy and procedure properly and might confiscate them on the spot to use in a way that’s not approved. And if, at the end of this, everyone says it’s okay to keep the cards and you still don’t feel right you can always donate the same amount to the program to even things out.

    5. Notthemomma*

      Report to the boss. If you are allowed to keep but feel they or others could benefit, simply say in your thank you card how you appreciate it and were honored they thought so highly of you. Then write that you would so much rather their limited funds go to their needs, so in the spirit of paying it forward, you ask that they use the cards for some of those things or people the org can use.

    6. Lemon Zinger*

      Report it to your supervisor and ask what to do. There’s probably a policy or regulation you need to follow, working in government.

    7. Bagpuss*

      Talk to your boss and ask. Do you have an employee hand book or any policies you can check?

      I’m not government, but my office has a formal gifts policy and anything worth over £20 has to be reported and you have to be authorized to keep it, and gifts of money or money equivalent (such as gift cards) are not permitted in any circumstances .

    8. Beth*

      Repeating what others have said: report it and find out if it exceeds the acceptable value limit for gifts (de minimus). Some industries and workplaces have a de minimus of $0, that is, absolutely no gifts whatsoever.

      If you have to give the cards back, you can always emphasize how deeply you value the kindness of the gift. That part you get to keep.

    9. kittymommy*

      For local government it’s probably mandated by your government entity and should be in your employee handbook and unless you handle bids or budgeting/finance it’s likely a yes within limitations. I know ours is $25 maximum. Maybe check with your HR department.

    10. ECHM*

      I sent a couple of low-value coffee shop gift cards to a couple local legislators recently, to thank them for all their work in this tough time. Previously when I’ve done that, I had one of them returned for these reasons, so this time I did not sign them or put a return address. Would they have been able to keep them?

      1. pancakes*

        Why make a point of continuing to do something that you know is against their protocol? Why not write them a nice note instead, if you feel a need to do something?

      2. Not So NewReader*

        No, technically speaking they are still gifts even if the source has not identified themselves. I would assume the cards were given away or destroyed.

        If you really care about the job a person is doing, then don’t put them in a position where they have to deal with stuff like this. You can send them a kind note. Or you can post a kind comment online as appropriate.

        I have worked local levels of government. And even on that level I would, and indeed I HAVE, turned down cups of coffee. The offer was nice. But what was even nicer was when the person instantly grasped that they could get me in trouble and they stopped insisting on giving me a coffee.

        That NO is a hard no, a full stop no. It doesn’t mean to go ahead look around for backdoor approaches for gifting.

  27. Potatoes gonna potate*

    Just curious, how seriously do job seekers generally take Glassdoor reviews of companies?

    I was looking for reviews of a company and i came across my ex-company’s. I noticed they added dozens of reviews just from April-May 2020, and all gushing and said pretty much the same things, some of which weren’t true. From when I was working there, I know my company would have fake reviews put up. It was a common joke amongst us coworkers.

    I mean, I’m not surprised at the company putting fake reviews but not sure how seriously GD is typically taken.

    1. voyager1*

      I take them with a grain of salt, but if I see a common theme then I note it. I usually dismiss the really gushing and really negative ones too. I treat glassdoor like Amazon. 5 stars and 1 stars are usually coming at it with a agenda.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same here. You have to average it out. A whole lot of negative reviews, however, will send me googling for more information. Also, the company’s responses to negative reviews can tell you a lot.

      2. Jeri Curlz*

        I do the same thing. A bunch of reviews that were all posted at the exact same time are probably astroturf. However, if the same company has a couple of good reviews every few months stretching back 5 years, then that gives me more comfort that the reviews are legitimate. Similarly, if the same issues are being reported by different people over a long period of time, that has more credibility than a ton of really bad reviews posted

        To me, something like what Potates Gonna Potate mentioned would come across as obviously fake. Why would dozens of people suddenly write a review of one company in the span of a month?

        1. Potatoes gonna potate*

          Exactly. Back when I was working there, I witnessed HR asking newcomers to leave good reviews. Anybody whos been working there more than 1 month and sees the reviews knows that they’re fake. I guess HR was trying to attract people (but they cut staff by 50ish % b/c of COVID so?).

    2. aiya*

      generally speaking, I think it’s pretty easy to spot fake reviews. I’ve seen reviews for companies with 4 or 5 stars, just absolutely gushing over how great the company is, and there are never any comments in the “cons” or “comments for improvements” sections. That and combined with the other less than stellar reviews, it’s pretty obvious that the 4 or 5 star reviews aren’t real.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I haven’t looked through any other companies, I wonder if I’d be able to sniff them out. I feel like I was only able to spot these because I know more than the average outsider would (i.e., customer service reps working there for 1 year saying that the meeting rooms were too small when we didn’t have CS until a month prior, and they never met wiht clients and oh the office was closed since March).

    3. Potatoes gonna potate*

      I was feeling petty one late night some days ago and I ended up flagging each of the fake reviews and why they were fake. GD said htey didn’t find anything wrong. Oh wells. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    4. Nesprin*

      I always read the negative reviews b/c about 5% of any group of people will complain, and i want to know if the ppl with an axe to grind actually have a reason to do so. i.e. was fired because I was painting my nails is probably a good sign, was fired because I reported malfeasance is much much more concerning.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Right, but would anyone really admit that?

        We had someone who left a scathing review saying that we were discriminating against her b/c we didn’t promote her — but she had been told exactly what was needed to get promoted and she refused to do that, would take 3 hour lunch/dinner breaks without clocking out (was hourly and eligible for OT) and openly screamed at 3 of her bosses/supervisors in front of teh whole office.

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          They’re not going to admit it, but they’re not going to show their receipts either. If someone’s vague – the boss is a meany-pants, one star – then I’m putting little to no weight on it. If there are specifics, I’m paying attention, especially if there’s a pattern.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Exactly, the answer is in the details.

            If several people are posting about a screaming boss, I tend to believe that.

            If a person posts “this place sucks”, I tend to ignore that. It’s not specific. Maybe the writer just doesn’t want that job.

    5. Bex*

      Out of curiosity, I pulled up the glassdoor page for an absolute dumpster-fire company I worked for 10+ years ago. Looks like they are still a dumpster fire! 1.8 star overall rating, mostly 1 and 2 star ratings with a few over-the-top 5 star reviews. If I had read that before I interviewed, I never would have gone in.

      My current company had a bit of a mixed bag, and I read them all before I accepted the offer. There were a couple themes I noticed that I asked about, and the interviewers did acknowledge that they were areas the company was actively working on and they were able to speak to the plan to get better.

  28. Bacon Maple Bar*

    I have been lucky enough to get some interviews but I end up being the runner up or the position has closed. I am getting tired of prepping for interviews (some interviews lasted almost a whole day) and then crickets or no thank you. I have practiced with Alison’s guide and the feedback I got from the last interview was that I interviewed well but the other person had more experienced. I don’t know what else to do and my work contract is expiring at the end of July.

    1. Picard*

      Its a numbers game. If youre getting interviews and feedback is someone with more experience is getting the jobs, all you can do is keep applying.

  29. DataGirl*

    What tips do people have for a 16 year old applying for their first job, when they have no work or volunteer experience yet? Especially in this time of COVID, when most places one could gain volunteer experience are shut down?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      What types of jobs are they applying for? In my experience, most places such as retail or food service don’t really care about any experience. They want you to be able to demonstrate that you’re reliable, friendly, and reasonably hard-working. This could be done through clubs, activities, things like church groups, or school. And even then, those things may not be super important.

      The one thing I would caution against is making any mention of a short-term or summer job (even if it will be). When I was in college, I was rejected for a fast food cashier position because I informed them that it would only be a summer job and I would return to school in the fall. They wanted someone there more permanently.

      1. CheeryO*

        Agreed. One thing that would be helpful would be to do some mock interviews. I viscerally remember my first food service interview ~15 years ago; the interviewer described a situation with a difficult customer and asked how I would handle it, and I gave her the blankest stare and finally said, “Uhhh… I don’t know.” I got the job, but I was really embarrassed about it at the time. I also found the whole experience extremely stressful even though it was pretty short and straightforward.

        1. Thankful for AAM*

          Ooh, interview prep! My 26 year old son had several group interviews when he was 16 and looking for his first job. I did not even know that could be a thing so did not prepare him for group interviews.

        2. tangerineRose*

          When I got a job at a fast food place (over 20 years ago though), they basically just asked us to write down what hours we were available to work. I think they figured that they’d figure out who could do the job while we were working.

          Although a different fast food place that I applied for gave me a test.

    2. WellRed*

      There are all sorts of jobs made for 16 year old first timers, though probably less so this year. Grocery stores, for one.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      They don’t need experience. They need to show they can follow directions and learn on the job. They can demonstrate these skills in the interview. I feel like interview practice is the best thing for teenagers, not necessarily having any kind of resume.

      I say this as someone who got their first job DESPITE crying through the interview out of stress. Nobody prepared me to interview. I wish they had!

      1. anon24*

        Agreed about following directions. I know this will make most people here heads’ explode, but at the job I had as a teen/young adult my manager’s preferred way to check how well people with no job history followed directions was to take their application, look it over, and then give them the company phone number and say “hey, if you haven’t heard from me call or stop by again in about a week.” If you called back, even if he was out, whoever you talked to could pull your application and make a note that you called or stopped by on X date and he knew you followed directions and as long as you looked good when he talked to you suddenly you’re on the “hire when we have an opening” list.

    4. The Grey Lady*

      Like the others said, if it’s just retail or food service or something, they don’t care about experience too much.

      Here are the best tips I can give for your 16 year old: Make sure they show up to the interviews clean, on time, and well-dressed. As a former food service employee, I saw so many people blow an interview because they came in late or unkempt. Yes, I realize it’s true that you can be a great employee who just happens to dress a little sloppy, but appearance is very important. If they can do this one small thing, they’ll beat out a lot of other applicants on this alone, I promise.

    5. Coco*

      Interview prep is def helpful. When I applied for my first job as a teen, I applied, interviewed, and was hired at the same time (fast food) so make sure you have any legal work documents as needed when applying. (Social security card, etc)

      Clean up social media if necessary. Don’t know how much they will check before hiring but after hiring, fellow employees or manager may look your child up

      1. MassMatt*

        Good point, it’s amazing how much stuff people post with seemingly no idea that employers can or will check and see. Extreme examples, but people post videos of themselves drunk driving or committing vandalism or robbery.

        I’d say the best tips are talking with them to make sure they understand what an employer is looking for, as opposed to what THEY want, interview practice, and emphasis on knowing to be reliable and show up on time. Employers of teens have lots of turnover for people that don’t show up, show up late or high, etc. Showing up seems like a pretty low bar but it’s one a lot of people don’t pass in entry level jobs.

        Chances for advancement might be rare for these types of jobs but reliable employees will get more and better shifts, raises, etc and be able to stay with an employer if they want vs: having to job hop.

    6. Retail not Retail*

      Right now, don’t. The kind of jobs a 16 year old can get is not safe during this time.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Yeah, that’s a problem.

          What about jobs working outdoors, mowing lawns, power-washing kinds of things?

    7. The Rural Juror*

      If you’re not used to public speaking, take some time to practice interviewing and speaking in front of a mirror or with a relative. It will feel weird, but hopefully it will help you feel more confident speaking to someone interviewing you. Practice catching yourself if you use a lot of filler words such as like, um, uh, well, or you know. I’m not saying to speak completely differently than you normally would, but to be more concise with your language. If you absent-mindedly say “like” a lot, it’s not going to come across well to most interviewers.

      1. MassMatt*

        Recording yourself is useful too. Make eye contact with the camera, sit up straight, etc.

    8. Jennifer*

      My then-15 year-old (who might’ve actually been 14 at the time) had a great interview with a friend who runs a local soccer program — he wanted to “work” as a volunteer assistant coach. The guy doing the interview (who has known him since he was 4 or 5) asked him a couple of questions (think “why should I hire you”, or “what would you bring to my program”) and then, when the kid looked at him blankly, walked him through possible answers (“you might say ‘because I’m interested in working with smaller kids, and I am good at following instructions.'”)

      I was sitting around a corner listening, because I’d driven him over, and I remember that it was honestly the sweetest thing ever. (The kid’s still there, although he’s now getting paid.)

      Anyhow, I agree that practice interview questions are a great idea. He should know why he wants to work at that specific place, and what he can bring to that specific place. It’s a lower-key version of personalizing your resume.

    9. DataGirl*

      kiddo in question has OCD and a lot of food triggers so no fast food and preferably not grocery either. They are hoping for retail but those jobs seem harder to get any many where we are require you to be 18. They want to create a resume, but have no idea what to put on it. other than choir and music lessons they have no extra-curricular activities, no sports, no school leadership or group membership.

  30. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

    Are there any AAMers who work in the advertising industry? How do you like/dislike it?

    I’m possibly going to lose my job and I’m in an industry that has a notoriously impossible job market, even in a good economy. And I’ve always been fascinated, for whatever reason, with commercials, which are always going to exist regardless of what the economy looks like. 

    I’m guessing there’s a lot more to this industry than writing inane jingles like “Liberty Liberty Liberty, Liberty,” and “Ba da ba BA ba, I’m lovin it,” right?

    1. Almost Academic*

      My sister works in advertising, so this secondhand information. She’s an account executive.

      Pros: Really good pay structure overall; frequent promotions, fast-paced work, and her area is very stable in terms of long-term outlook. She works on international products, so she likes that she can take work trips to cool locations sometimes.

      Cons: Really stressful, especially since a lot of the workforce she’s surrounded by seems young (and imo unprofessional, from the stories she tells). Note that this is across multiple different companies, same story. A few wonderful people, but the position she has is so interconnected with different people’s expectations that it can be hard to juggle. For example, if a member of the creative team is doing poor work, it really impacts her stress and work level since it means a lot more work to smooth things over with the client and change things with constant pressure from the boss to stay on budget.

      Overall I think she’s okay with it, but looking to move to more boutique or smaller agencies in the future as I think she’s a bit burned out overall.

    2. Natalie*

      Not in advertising myself but I live in an advertising town and have a lot of friends in the industry. One thing to be aware of, if you don’t like job searching, is that layoffs can be common, more than I think people expect for a white collar profession. Staffing needs can change quickly as clients’ needs change or they change agencies.

    3. pancakes*

      I don’t work in the industry but I read Digiday and Adweek now and then out of curiosity. Those will give you a bit of a feel for what’s going on in the industry.

    4. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      I don’t work in it, but I have a lot of friends who do – lots of big agencies in town. I’ll second the Pros/Cons Almost Academic gave – especially the bit about the workforce skewing young. It’s an industry that LOVES their nontraditional offices, lots of “perks” that really boil down to You-Never-Have-To-Leave-The-Office-Everything-You-Need-Is-Right-Here-Please-Work-80-Hours-To-Prove-Your-Dedication. It’s a “Work Hard Play Hard” industry with lots of and lots of playing hard. One agency in town had a holiday party with a buffet table of free assorted marijuana products a few years back. That’s just the scene.

    5. Can Can Cannot*

      I worked in advertising for about four years after having working mostly at startups but also at financial service companies. I ended up leaving advertising for another FS job when all the dishonesty in the ad space got to me. It was by far the slimiest, most dishonest place I have ever worked. Leadership could not tell the truth, both to employees but especially to clients. According to my colleagues that had spent their careers in advertising, this was just how the industry worked. It wasn’t something that I was comfortable doing, so I moved on.

    6. Please Exit Through The Rear Door*

      Thanks, everyone. These comments confirmed what I thought: this field is not for me.

      1. San Juan Worm*

        You might consider looking into in-house creative departments (marketing-communications), which also employ writers, editors, designers, videographers and creative directors. They’re typically smaller than ad agencies and work within smaller budgets, and they types of projects might be a little less cutting edge. The salaries are lower than ad agency equivalents, and there aren’t typically as many perks. But the variety of work can be interesting, especially if you’re interested in the larger company’s goals or mission. The environment can also be less cutthroat than agency culture, too.

    7. Ad Experience*

      I do want to provide a counterpoint, I have 5 years experience in the advertising industry – not on the agency side (which is all described above) but on the client side. Basically it’s a choice between coming up with the ad ideas at an agency, where you may work on multiple different brands, or being the one at a company (insurance, makeup product, etc) who manages the overall ads program for that company’s product.

      I love it. It feels like you get to find all the best things about the product and bring them to life in creative ways. It is a mix of project management, creative idea brainstorming, and accounting / business ops.

      If you want to be on the “good” side of advertising, it’s best to be the client, not the ad agency. You will probably need some degree of marketing experience to get a job like this.

  31. Potatoes gonna potate*

    Not sure if this belongs in the weekend thread or work thread but is it inappropriate to send a gift/gift card to a Real estate agent if a deal falls through on our end? This was our first time working with someone for this and they’ve been great to work with. my husband and I feel bad for this happening. The chances of working with them in the future are slim, so we want to send a token of appreciation.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I was going to do a gift card in addition to a thank you note. Is that too much?

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          Were you their client or another agent? As their client, it’s not too much to send a gift card and every real estate agent I’ve worked with (or been!) would hugely appreciate that.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      From the few things I have picked up here and there I definitely would not do this. She probably has to give it back to you.

      If you want to do something for her, take a few business cards and recommend her to people where appropriate.
      Maybe post a nice review online.
      Send her a thank you anyway note.

  32. Interview Outfits*

    Hello! Question about interview attire.
    Last week, I had a promising video interview (yay!) with a large bank. Every article I read about video interview attire said that candidates should dress as they would for an in-person interview, so I wore a blouse and a suit jacket. My interviewers were dressed much less formally though (shirt/solid tshirt). I would rather be overdressed to an interview than underdressed, I didn’t feel awkward. If I get a second interview, should I also dress down? By that I mean not wearing a suit jacket, I’d of course wear a formal shirt or blouse. Any advice/perspectives appreciated, especially from people in finance. Thank you!

    1. HatBeing*

      Base your outfits on what your interviewers were wearing, but bring it up a notch (i.e. they wore a polo, you wear a button down). This shows you were paying attention but still appreciate the professionalism expected in an interview. Good luck!

    2. CTT*

      I say still dress up; one of the interview double standards is that the interviewers aren’t going to specially dress up for it if it’s a more business casual environment. Also, it could be that those two are internally known as being sloppier and the second interview could involve people who will be more dressed up.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I agree with this – and it’s pretty much always better to be overdressed for an interview.

        For your second point, I remember going in for a couple of interviews for a job, and one of them was on a random casual day – the interviewers were wearing jeans and tshirts, but on the other days everyone was dressed professionally. It would have been embarrassing if I followed the first people’s queue and dressed down for the second interview!

      1. Jemima Bond*

        Yeah I agree. I think it’s fairly normal for the interviewee to be a bit smarter than the interviewers, if there is a difference. I would dress up a touch more smartly to be interviewed than I do to interview others. Unless they said something or the difference was awkwardly wide (like you were in a pinstriped suit and they were in a paint splattered boiler suit!) I’d carry on as you were. I can’t imagine anyone applying for a job at a large bank being marked down in any way for being too business-formal.
        Maybe lose the tiara and opera gloves though ;-D

    4. New to WFH*

      Not in finance, but in an industry where we are expected to wear suits when visiting clients. I interviewed a few people for an entry level position and I dressed up more than I have been since WFH (button down chambray shirt, so not super formal) but my colleagues didn’t (think tee shirt and baseball hat). Our grand boss will interview the final couple candidates and she specifically commented on her surprise that a couple of our candidates didn’t dress up at all. She will definitely be dressed up (not just for the interviews, but in all our video conferences she has been in normal business casual attire). So if you move on to the next round, the people interviewing you might be more dressed up. I’d personally err on the side of being overdressed.

    5. Interview Outfits*

      Thank you everyone! I’ll stick with the suit. I was worried I’d seem… out of touch, but I think it’d be safer to dress up.

      1. The Grey Lady*

        I don’t think you will. It’s hard to overdress for an interview, especially in a field like finance. The only instance I can think of is if–for example–you were going to interview on a farm where you’d be shoveling cow manure, then maybe you don’t need to wear a 3-piece suit lol. Otherwise, suit up! You can always dress down a little once you get the job and get a better feel for the culture.

    7. Beth*

      Back in the days when Microsoft was the hottest company on the planet, it was an open secret that you were expected to wear a suit and tie (or equivalent) for your interviews, even if you never wore it again.

      Finance tends towards the conservative end of the professional dress spectrum (even when the people involved are not conservative at all personally); at my current firm, we’re dressing up for our video meetings with clients, even though we’ve stopped wearing professional attire for much of the rest of the time.

      Definitely dress well for your second interview, and for every interview. Good luck!

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Side note: My father in law worked for a department that kept exactly one (1) tie on a peg to be used by whoever needed it that day.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’d wear a similar thing (to what you wore for the first one) for the second interview, (assuming it isn’t sweltering heat in your home office so your are sweating all over the place!).
      But a formal shirt or blouse, without jacket, wouldn’t be out of place either.

  33. Washi*

    Folks in grad school, how are you holding up? I’m super lucky to be healthy and have steady financial support from my husband right now, but am struggling with coming to terms with how different my last year of school is going to be from what I was hoping. My classes will all be online, my (unpaid but mandatory) internship options are way narrower than in Normal Times, I’m anxious about finding a job after graduation, and I’m just feeling generally upset that while my learning experience will be greatly impacted, my tuition bill is the same thousands of dollars. (I understand that universities are in a very difficult position and I understand why they can’t reduce tuition…it’s just frustrating.)

    How are other folks coping?

    1. LMW*

      I was already in an online MSW program, so I didn’t have to adjust to switching to online classes. My internship was delayed due to Covid, but I was able to find a 100% online internship (crisis/suicide hotline). So, things are looking up. Thanks for asking. I hope the last year of your schooling goes as smoothly as it can.

    2. KoiFeeder*

      Death! Death! Death! Death! Death!

      (More seriously, though, I’m hanging in there. My college has had a reasonably sensible response to all this, and I wasn’t a candidate for a summer internship this year anyways, so it’s better for me than it could have been.)

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      I took a spring class which finished a couple of weeks ago, and did well. It was entirely online, which I didn’t like. I taking the summer off (from everything) and taking my next class in the fall, which will hopefully be back on campus.

  34. Almost Academic*

    My PI keeps misgendering people around me, behind their backs. I think it’s accidental, she’s about 50% on saying the correct pronouns and she has a lot on her plate otherwise (and pronouns are hard!). Still, it feels hurtful, or at least not fun to be around. She knows I’m gender non-binary, but doesn’t seem to respect it (e.g., repeatedly sending out lab emails referring to all of us as “Ladies”).

    The combination of it all just gets under my skin and has me down, even though no one part of it is a big deal. Some days it doesn’t bother me that much (I’m not super picky about my pronouns anyways), other days it really gets under my skin for a little while. I think part of it is that our department isn’t really good with diversity in general, so there isn’t much in the way of other support. On the one hand, I want to bring it up with my PI, on the other hand she’s historically been really defensive whenever anything that sounds like criticism or wanting a change in the lab comes up. I’m hesitant to rock the boat (further) since she has so much power over my future. Any suggestions for navigating this?

    1. Notthemomma*

      If as a middle age midwestern person in a non-diverse area of the country can get it, so can your PI. Have a 1:1 conversation that says it is disrespectful to others and detrimental to others perception of them. I would personally go a bit further and provide examples of acceptable pronouns.
      They aren’t hard, they’re respectful. And no matter how busy one is, there is always time for respect.

    2. kt*

      I agree in principle with the sibling comment here, but in practice… I’ve seen some terrible PI behavior. Argh. I don’t want to counsel you to roll with it and allow injustice to perpetuate out of fear, and I also know that you getting your degree and being able to continue this fight in a position with more power is important. This is really hard. Can you recruit a friend or colleague to correct your PI?

    3. JustaTech*

      Ah, PIs who own your soul.

      If your PI perpetually called you by the wrong name, would you let it slide? (And you might, depending on how close you are to done and the nature of your PI. It’s totally your call.)

      If you want to work on your PI and their use of pronouns, I would try to keep it very light, “they, not her” in a gentle, relaxed, breezy tone, just like if your PI had, used the wrong units or some other slip of the tongue. And then see how your PI reacts to a very mild correction. If they take it well/OK,then keep it up and hopefully they’ll start doing a better job of remembering. If they bite your head off, well, that’s another data point and you can recalibrate your approach.

      As for the “Ladies” thing, can you try to model a different salutation for your group? “Dear PI’s Lab,” or “Dear Labbies” or some other address? (PIs often like the ego boost of seeing the lab referred to as “theirs”.) This is where I would try and enlist the support of the other grad students/post docs/ techs in the lab: If everyone else gets away from using gendered language to refer to the lab as a group your PI might get out of the habit too.

      And you’re allowed to be bothered by this! Your PI is a grown adult with an advanced degree and the ability to get grant money. They’re plenty smart enough to figure out “they” in place of “she” or “he”, and quite frankly shouldn’t use “ladies” anyway (says someone who went to girl’s school – they don’t even use that address anymore).

      I hope you can find a method that works and that your PI is more supportive.

    4. Gaia*

      I’m sorry that you’re having to deal with this. It is disrespectful of your PI. You are right that pronouns can be hard, but repeatedly misgendering people (or referring to a group that isn’t 100% made up of people that identify as women as “ladies”) is not acceptable.

      Ultimately, it is up to you if you feel safe raising this with her. But just know that you are fully within your rights to do so. She is in the wrong, not you.

    5. Pomona Sprout*

      Slightly OT, but what is a PI exactly? I did a Google search and found those initials can stand for a ton of things, and I don’t have enough context to be able to suss out which one might apply here.

      TIA!

      1. BethDH*

        Principal Investigator. Head of the grant, in charge of whatever research it funds, in practice often head of a lab that is wholly or partially funded by such grants.
        In other words, they are OP’s boss, but also usually their advisor for graduate-level research. In many places, you don’t really get accepted to the school/program, you get accepted to work with a particular person. If they leave for another school, you likely go with them, and if they don’t like you, you’re more likely to leave the program than just be able to switch advisors. That’s not always true, but does help give you a sense of how much power they have.

  35. blackcat*

    I’ve been pushing the folks I work with to think more critically about how racism has historically and is continuing to impact our field (in STEM). I’ve been beating this drum for years, and been met with either apathy or outright resistance (I’ve been shut down when I’ve pointed out problematic language before).

    The past few weeks, I’m suddenly being expected to do all of the work of educating people who are now, in this moment, open to learning.

    On one hand, I feel obligated to do the work. On the other hand, I’m frustrated and angry it’s just now happening. And I’m worried–I think rightfully so–that when it is no longer trendy to be anti-racist, things will go back to the way they were. And on a third hand, I’m being asked to do this as the only parent in the bunch and daycare is still closed.

    This is all exhausting. And I know it’s less exhausting because I’m white. It’s been helpful to talk to former colleagues and friends who have been put in this same position. I am still just frustrated when I have to explain to someone, again, that the issue with diversity in our field is not about finding POC with enough “grit” to survive the BS in the field.

    Anyone else struggling with similar stuff in their jobs?

    1. Marshmallow*

      Just confirming your perception. Yes, this is exhausting. Yes, this is frustrating. Layer on top of that kids at home AND the sudden NEED. When the need wasn’t sudden. Also as a white person balancing when I should be speaking and when not.
      the “grit” thing. I can’t even address without the anger rising in my chest.
      What I have been doing.
      Putting on my own oxygen mask first. I get that I am seen at “that” person.
      I note there are professionals in the field that should be paid to help deal with, train and implement policy in these issues.
      I am not that person and I point to those organizations and resources.

    2. Nita*

      It’s a marathon, not a sprint. If you don’t have the bandwidth for this right now, it’s OK to make plans to work to improve the situation later. Frankly, I think a lot starts with schools, and I’m going to push to have my company participate in an outreach program. This can’t happen right now, obviously. I’m more angry with our NYC authorities, who think that the way to increase equality is to burn the good parts of the school system to the ground, instead of making sure there are enough seats for everyone, and enough support for the kids who struggle to keep up.

      1. blackcat*

        I think what gets me is that I hear a lot of “white people fix your shit” and I am a white person with a ton of privilege. (That privilege is why I’m in this position–I went to a fancy pantsy private school that taught me to critically examine my whiteness at a young age. So my privilege means I’m not new to difficult conversations about race.) I feel like it’s really on me (or people like me) to try to fix other white people.

        In general, I don’t mind doing this work! I find it rewarding! I know tons and can be helpful!

        But damn, why weren’t people listening to me when I first brought up these issues and offered to create/lead a reading group? I think it would be an easier pill to swallow if folks acknowledge that I’d been trying all along, and apologized for not listening.

        On one hand, I think it’s a really awful thing I have no Black colleagues in my current position. On the other hand, holy hell am I glad there’s not a Black person on the receiving end of the bullshit I’m getting right now.

        1. Double A*

          (fellow white person here)

          If you’re going to do this work, you just can’t be resentful or have an “I told you so” attitude. No one is going to apologize for not listening. Like, THAT is what as a white person you need to let go of. You’re doing the right thing of talking about this even when it isn’t “trendy.” Now that it is “trendy,” you can’t get all hipster about it — it doesn’t really matter why people are suddenly listening. They are listening. You have limited bandwidth. Waste as little as possible on being resentful — it will benefit exactly no one. What bandwidth you do have, revisit those conversations.

          I don’t really find these conversations all that hard because it comes down to my values and I can articulate those easily. You don’t have to argue with people — if they’re engaging with you in bad faith (i.e. they want to debate and not learn), you can just disengage. You can say, “I feel like you want to debate about this and not actually learn.” You can say, “I worry a lot of white people will just go back to their old ways once this isn’t in the news.” You can say, “I worry you’re only interested in this because it’s trendy.” Be blunt. Why not?

          Here are a couple of statements that might help you disengage and leave the door open for further conversation:

          -I’ve found when I’m defensive, it means I have something to reflect on. I notice you’re being defensive about this topic, so I suggest you reflect on why that is and we can revisit this conversation later.
          -I believe that people in power should behave better, not worse, than the people they have power over. This is especially true for people who enforce the laws. I believe in more accountability, not less, for those who have more power (and society is mostly set up the opposite of this). Those are my values. You can reflect on what yours are.

          These conversations are for the long run. It’s perfectly find to pause them, leave, and leave the door open. It’s perfectly fine to direct people to especially powerful resources that have helped shape your perspective.

          Think of yourself as participating in a restorative justice practice. You are working with perpetrators. It’s a long process of accountability.

          1. blackcat*

            Thank you, this is really helpful. I appreciate you taking the time to write it out.

            I need to let go of the resentment I have over some of the times I brought up things that are not okay and got really negative responses. For reelz, people in my group “celebrated” Indigenous Peoples Day aka Columbus day by trying to get everyone to do a “What’s your spirit animal” exercise. And the response to me saying “Hey, I’m sure you’re not aware, but the construct of “spirit animals” is actually pretty offensive to native peoples. Here are some writings by Indigenous Americans about it” was to actually have people say I was “ruining the fun.”

            I don’t actually think I have the social capital in the group to be blunt, partly because I burned a lot of it by calling out racism earlier. And I’m bitter about being asked to do extra work RIGHT NOW when I’m overwhelmed with juggling my normal work without childcare. If I’m actually going to do the work of helping educate people, I need to let that go. And if I’m unable to let it go, I need to find some way to excuse myself from this work.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              A comment about resentment. If you can reframe it to, “Good thing I did all that talking in the past, so they know me and they know I have info that will be good info.”
              Or find another reason why all your energy was put to good use. I find that I have to say things 6-8 times before I get heard once. Especially with ideas that are new, “strange”, different to others. So I can make it a counting game. “Good thing I have said this 7 times already because now they are actually prepared to HEAR me on the 8th time.”

              The hardest part of any job is figuring out how to handle the things that go wrong. I think in part because there is no set method, there is no one way that fixes all the things that are wrong.

    3. PX*

      Ugh. Yes, please, as Marshmallow says, use this moment when your company is bothering to point them to organisations and resources who are professionals and paid to do these things properly.

    4. Web Crawler*

      This isn’t a workplace issue for me, but I’ve had to do education work for basically every person around me since I’ve come out as trans. Here are some things that’s made it easier for me:

      1. Find some resources and get used to sending them out. I know that people have written stuff or recorded Youtube videos about the problems POC face in STEM fields. So when somebody’s coming to you with basic questions, give them a basic resource instead of spending energy explaining “why we need diversity” for the millionth time.

      2. If people are asking the same questions, but they’re too specific to have a resource (aka, “why should Llamas Inc care if we have Black llama groomers”), make your own. It’s the same principle of spending energy once to reach multiple people.

      3. Set boundaries. You don’t have to reach everyone and you don’t have to be a teacher all the time. If you can, decide ahead of time what your boundaries are- for topics, specific people/attitudes, times of the day, or whatever you need. Mine are roughly that I won’t engage with people who misgender me on purpose, I won’t engage with people who bring Christianity into the equation, and I won’t engage with people who are trying to “win” the argument instead of listen. This is so that I don’t burn myself out. I can reach so many more people if my mental health stays safe.

    5. Lora*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. Let me make sure I got it right – the work of decades and decades of study and workplace psych/soc, labor history and identity-based discrimination is expected to be compressed neatly into friendly, palatable layman’s-size chunks for the edification of people who couldn’t be arsed to Google it…and you are to provide this service for free, without making anyone feel bad about their past choices, in a soothing way that encourages them to do better in the future without actually learning anything from their past.

      I kinda feel like the reason people are asked to do this FOR FREE as opposed to say, hiring a consultant and paying them money, is because the people doing the asking do not actually value this service, you know?

      Was that non-confrontational enough? Probably not. Nobody asks me to design them a new technology for free, they ask what my rate would be for a 3-6 month project. Are the people doing the asking trying to get a used Playstation from Craigslist? Are they Instagram influencers, who will pay you in ExposureBucks? No? You’re supposed to play Occupational Psychologist for their amusement, when they’ve been completely unreceptive to it before, because now it is cool and they can get their Inclusion Badge on their corporate jacket.

      Agree w/ what Marshmallow said – they can google and find a professional and cough up if they want to have a Diversity Team Building Pizza Party.

      1. blackcat*

        Your first paragraph is the nail on the head. Thank you for putting it that way! I’ve worked on educating myself FOR DECADES about this stuff. DECADES. I invested the time and energy in learning, in listening, in asking myself some really tough questions. I took entire courses in this stuff! And I’m supposed to me some magical, feel good, social justice fairy.

        You know what, I really like the idea of hiring a consultant, and I even know a couple of really awesome (POC) consultants who do this work. They’re super busy now! But they exist! We could book them for 6 months from now, probably.
        I think part the deal is that this work of educating isn’t being viewed as labor of value. I’m expected to do it for free, and they’re certainly not going to pay someone else to do it. If they valued it, they wouldn’t have rejected my (free!) offers earlier that required their time and effort.

    6. tangerineRose*

      If you could pick something that would help that the company or co-workers could do that would make a difference, what would it be? It might help if it’s something that’s sort of easy and rewarding so they’ll be more likely to do it and keep doing it.

      Could the company sponsor some kind of scholarships/tutoring for POC kids (or adults) who could use the help and couldn’t afford it? One thing that annoys me about how math tends to be taught (at least what I’ve seen) is that since a lot of it builds on itself, once a kid thinks they’re bad at math, they tend to keep thinking that, so 1 bad teacher can basically take STEM out of a kid’s future path unless someone can intervene and help.

    7. Flabbernabbit*

      Share the load. Get an ally and work on this together as your first order of business. Formalize it to the extent you need to. Required to create lasting change, so getting more people invested anyway will help. You don’t have to be the only one.

  36. JustAClarifier*

    My boss insists on attending every meeting and call I am invited to or make with anyone other than the team that reports to me, in addition to requesting I CC her on all emails not to my team. She has also started telling me to send her my email drafts so that she can approve/edit before I send them. My last employee review – the end of April – she rated me incredibly high, so I am perplexed about what could be triggering this. I asked her in writing if there was a performance issue or trust concern that was raised by any of my performance that I could address, and her response was that “it’s just how she manages.” Her behavior has been undermining me to others in the company and our sister locations, and the micromanaging is getting so bad that I’m contemplating resigning over this, but in this pandemic I’m worried about doing so since I am in a federal position with job security. I truly feel stuck and don’t know how to proceed. Any advice on this situation is welcome.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Has anyone here ever successfully gotten managerial responsibilities removed from their role while maintaining their salary line/position or only taking a small pay cut? I absolutely detest managing, find it incredibly draining and stressful, and would basically take another job to get out of doing it. But I know my manager and workplace value me highly, and I might be able to have my two direct reports moved off of me. (Emphasis “might.”) I just don’t know a strategy for taking up this conversation.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Ugh, another wrongly threaded comment! Alison, please delete – I don’t know why this has happened two weeks in a row.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      Is this something that’s happened since the pandemic? Are you working remotely now? I also found that my boss got super micromanagey when we initially moved to working from home, but after about six weeks of it he chilled out. I also called him on it similarly to what you’ve done, but for him it seemed to make him realize what he’d been doing and made him calm down.

      How long have you worked with her?

      1. JustAClarifier*

        That’s a good question; this started just before the pandemic. I moved under this boss in November 2019; there were instances of this happening, and it has slowly grown more extreme. I do wonder if the pandemic has influenced it. How did you communicate with your boss, if you don’t mind my asking?

        1. rageismycaffeine*

          Are you the only one who works under her or are there others? Is she doing this to other people or just you?

          I will say that my boss and I have a really informal relationship, partially because we were acquainted with each other before I came to work for him. We have a standing Friday “war room” meeting with him, myself, and one of my direct reports, and I had noticed that he was increasingly asking her to give detailed information about how she was planning to do some task that didn’t need to be explained step by step. In a one on one meeting with him I told him that he was making my direct report anxious by asking her for this level of detail, and that it was making both her and me not sure who her boss was. (That’s the part I don’t think I could have gotten away with if our relationship was more formal.) This opened up a bigger conversation about him suddenly becoming more controlling and micromanage-y as soon as we went to remote work, and he acknowledged that it was partially the result of his extroversion being stymied because of not getting to interact with anyone but his family on a daily basis. He voluntarily removed himself from the weekly war rooms unless we specifically asked for him and it’s been much better.

          I really don’t know if this is going to be particularly helpful for you! It sounds like you asked your boss the right question in the right way and just didn’t get a helpful answer.

          1. JustAClarifier*

            It sounds like you have a good leader and you approached that very well. My relationship with my current supervisor is less formal, but it has begun to get strained over this. I think the issue is that she doesn’t see herself as micromanaging, and in fact actually wrote that out in an email to me. I don’t know in what possible realm of the imagination demanding to attend every meeting and proof-reading emails isn’t micro-managing, but she insists she isn’t.

    3. PX*

      Ack. I know Alison has answered a couple of letters about micromanagers here and given good tips on how to approach it.

      Oddly enough, because you mention how its undermining you, I’d be curious to build a bit more of a network internally and ask others who you might be comfortable with if this is just…known behaviour from your boss? Do other people know that she’s a micromanager? Can they give you tips on how to work around her? If you have a mentor, this may also be a good question for them.

      And because I’m a rebel, sometimes I’m like, what would happen if you just…didnt do all those things?

      1. JustAClarifier*

        Other people do know that she is; and other leaders I have spoken with about this issue, including my mentors, told me that there has been a huge change in personality from her in the last six months. Compared to how she used to be, there has been a large shift. If I don’t do those things, she finds out when she reads my daily highlights (to prove I’m working) and I’m disciplined, it reflects poorly in my performance reviews, which impacts my year-end pay, etc.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Given that others have noticed a huge change, is it possible to escalate this to her boss? Either directly or indirectly. Or someone else who has power or influence over her and who would tell her to chill?

          1. JustAClarifier*

            I could try; unfortunately my location is very chain of command, so if you speak to your boss’s Grand Boss you get put on the crap list.

            1. valentine*

              You already feel like you’re on the crap list, so, why not?

              First, though, call her and tell her it’s making others view you as [negative adjective]. Say that you expect a person doing good work to work independently and reducing her burden, but you can’t do that if she’s tied up in your same meetings and doing the work for you.

              And job search.

        2. Emma*

          Could you say this to her? Not that others have noticed a change, but that you have notice one, and ask for the reason- is it something she is concerned about with your work?
          That might help to get more clarity on the situation, or even prompt her to reflect on what has changed.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’m going to ask a question / speculate.. and wonder if there is any job security issue for your boss?

      I wonder if it’s possible that (either in her own mind, or externally) questions are being asked about that additional “layer” of management and what it adds to the company…

      Does she actually have a workload of her own, do you know?

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      Other fed worker here. You are in a really tough spot. My first thought was that–if you are the only one she’s treating this way–she is targeting you for some reason. If you don’t either (a) figure out a way to positively influence her approach to you before your year-end appraisal is due or (b) apply for and get another job at your agency (or at another federal agency), you are on a trajectory toward a “training plan”/Letter of Performance journey that will end with a Performance Improvement Plan she will ensure you fail.

      You have already done what I would suggest, which is go to her peers for a validation check. I might go back to these same people to ask if they can give you any more details on what might’ve happened 6 months ago to prompt this change in her. It might give you some insight on what’s driving her, if you think that would help you in any way.

      If that’s not an option, then you could consider asking one of the those friendly senior managers you spoke to before, to help you with approaching your boss’ supervisor to arrange a private talk–very, very quietly, phone call only, nothing in writing–and lay out for him/her what’s been happening, how you’ve reacted to it so far, and ask if they have any suggestions/guidance on how you can “manage up” in a way that could bring your boss’ trust in you back up to previous levels.

      If that’s also not an option, then it looks like you’re going to have to embrace her approach full-on. What that might look like for you: take some time to analyze all the changes she’s made to your email drafts for the last 2-3 months – can you detect any patterns to the changes she makes from what you sent? If you can, then start putting those changes in your drafts from the outset (even if you think they’re ridiculous). Start cc’ing her on any correspondence you send outside of your own unit to anyone who is at her (GS-13? GS-14?) level, or higher. Ask her if there’s any specific professional training your agency offers that she thinks you ought to take, and then take it.

      Regarding the undermining: do you know anyone at the sister location who knows your situation and might be able to give you suggestions on how to counteract her undermining?

      If I were in your shoes, I would start looking for a lateral move to somewhere else ASAP. Please don’t quit! Your job security is very important. Don’t let her run you out of federal service. We need people like you! Please keep us posted on how you are dealing with this. And good luck!

  37. Anne Shirley*

    Anyone else here struggling with taking things off their work plate? I am working from home for the foreseeable future. My expectation was to be doing less instead I am doing more.
    I have identified the long range projects that will be on moratorium.
    I have structured my work flow so that my computer is off by 4:00.
    Do people put “down-time” or “reflection time” on their calendars. Is there a better phrase for that?
    regroup? revision? research? review?
    I need to show the blocked time on my calendar otherwise my days fill up with zoom meetings by people above my pay grade.

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      I definitely put blocks on my calendar. The more serious sounding they are, the less likely I’m interrupted. “Research” is one of my go to’s, or a specific project name. I probably wouldn’t use “down time” because my boss would think I wasn’t working, and I wouldn’t use “reflection time” because people wouldn’t take it seriously and would book meetings over it. I usually have a “weekly wrap up” during 4-5 on Fridays, which I use to get organized for the following week.

    2. Elenia*

      I literally just put “block” on my calendar for certain times, up to two hour increments. (More than that I will put the name of the specific project I am working on). If someone asks me I just tell them I need some time to knuckle down and concentrate on a project and can’t get any uninterrupted time otherwise.

    3. A Frayed Knot*

      I use the label “Project Time” for these situations. That way, I know I have chunks of time to devote to a single task – whether it is a project, clearing my inbox, writing a novel, or catching up on my soap opera. My “Project Time” isn’t always at the end of the day or at the same time each day, but it gives me breathing room two or three times a week.

    4. Ali G*

      It doesn’t matter where I work. I started putting “nope” and blocking off time so I could actually do work. No one has said anything to me (and they a generally good about not scheduling over other appointments).

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Reading time or research time are popular where I work. For some reason it is impolitic to put “lunch” on the calendar, so you will often see those at noon as well.

      1. Elenia*

        One caveat here: you need to have established yourself as a good worker so your boss trusts that you are using that time to work or whatever. I can’t imagine I could have done this in my first three months on the job.

    6. Jules the First*

      Honestly? I book a meeting (labelling it with whatever project I’m planning to work on, or, if it’s downtime, with something like “special project catch up session”) and invite my private email so it shows as external with multiple attendees in our scheduling software. People here are good about not scheduling over actual meetings and not good at working around “time blocks.” On the rare occasion when I have to cave and accept a meeting during that slot I just let them know I’ll try to reschedule my other meeting and magically I’m always able to do that ;)

  38. HatBeing*

    Any ideas for a title change as our office goes fully remote? I had the dreaded ‘office manager’ title and handle everything from human resources (recruiting, ER and admin stuff), AP, vendor relationships, IT, and random things that no one else will do. I suggested People and Business Operations Manager, but my boss has been dragging their feet. Any suggestions?

    1. WellRed*

      Why are you changing the title? What is the main nature of your job? Maybe just operations manager? Business manager?

      1. HatBeing*

        Well, we don’t have a centralized office any more and are all working remotely, so I think my title should reflect that! My main duty (and interest) is human resources, but I also spend a good chunk of time doing bookkeeping. Big upcoming projects are creating virtual team building events and keeping an eye on infection rates to see what in-person get togethers may look like (we are in an area that was very hard hit early on).

        1. Anon for this*

          We have a tiny company and the person in this exact type of role eventually took the title of director of finance and administration ( rolling my eyes at director, mind you).

    2. Beth*

      “People and Business Operations Manager” is a very cumbersome mouthful. How about just “Operations Manager”?

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Or Logistics Manager, maybe?

        P & B Ops Mngr is a long title, but Ops Mngr makes me think of facility operations rather than business/HR.

    4. Kw10*

      Operations Manager, Administrative and Financial Manager, HR and Administration Manager, etc.

  39. Anonymath*

    I work in academia and my part of the college is a known snake pit. The college itself is fine, and our President has done a good job of cleaning house in the upper administration ranks, but has not yet gotten to the festering issues within my school. As such, several of our school’s faculty are shut out of school-level service opportunities, as they are given to the favorites.

    I found out yesterday that I had not been selected by my Dean for an administrative position that would have been a good service opportunity. Today, while at a campus event, I was standing near the President and my Dean. The President called my attention and then highly recommended me to my Dean as someone who has useful skills that should be put to use in service. I thanked him and stated that I would be happy to serve.

    I feel like it would be good to follow up with an email to the President, thanking him again and reiterating my interest, but it feels like that might be going overboard. Should I send the email? If so, should I cc my Dean?

    1. rural academic*

      This is hard to give a good answer to without knowing more about your situation. How is service generally treated at your college? You sound like you think of service opportunities as a perk rather than a burden; is that the general perception? Would getting an administrative appointment help get you noticed and move your career in a direction you want, or would it take up time from research and teaching?

      An email to your President probably won’t do any harm, and your President might keep you in mind for future administrative appointments, especially if the cleaning-house is ongoing. CC’ing the Dean seems more passive-aggressive and might unnecessarily rile them up. It seems unlikely that they’ll suddenly reverse their decision and un-appoint whoever they did put in that administrative position. I would probably try communicating with the Dean directly (either in person or over email), separately from the message to the President, and telling them that you’d be very interested in any future administrative stuff that may come open. Sometimes even if other people are being passive-aggressive or playing favorites, and can pay off just to be direct about what you want.

      1. Anonymath*

        Thanks for responding!
        In our faculty appointments, service is expected to take about 10-20% of our workload and we are rated on service on our annual reviews. You are expected to have service each year at a variety of levels (national, state, local, professional, college/school) but you must have college/school level service in order to earn the minimal good rating. If you do not have enough service your review will be lower and you will be less eligible for any merit raises. It can also have effects on your promotion if you get enough low ratings or are considered as non-contributing. In healthier schools service is widely distributed so everyone gets a chance to contribute and get some service credit while not overburdening any one person. In our school service is only assigned to the in-crowd and even positions that are open to election tend to have back-channel “don’t vote for her” campaigns going on, making it difficult to get the needed school-level service.
        Previously I had dealt with this by working harder on college-level service (I’ve chaired some college-wide committees) but in the last few years the in-crowd has organized campaigns against electing some of us to college-level service as well. In case one thinks I am paranoid, I’ve been shown some of the emails/texts that have gone around, so I know what is going on behind the scenes. My Dean is aware of the ongoing issues and even actively contributing to them by only selecting certain individuals for service.
        I know the healthiest answer is to get the heck out of here, but I’ve got a two-body problem plus local family that need care. I agree that cc’ing the Dean is most likely passive-aggressive, and I’m trying so hard to stay clean in this mess, so I think just a short thank you letter to the President might be the best option.

        1. rural academic*

          Oof. Yeah, that sounds like a mess. If service is required for promotion, then there has to be a system for passing it around somewhat equitably. Good luck — if your President is intent on cleaning house, the system at your college may eventually get an overhaul too. Perhaps a new Dean or a more thorough re-org can shake things up.

    2. Hi there*

      Sorry to respond so late! Like others I agree with emailing the President and not cc-ing the short-sighted Dean. Would it be possible to specify the kind of service you’d like to do or the issues you’d like to tackle? The goal here is for the President to appoint you to a campus-wide committee, and the easier you can make that for the President, the better.

  40. Jenn*

    I am rolling my eyes so hard at my organization. I work in a retirement community, but on the administrative side and have little to no interaction with residents. I’m also in a Midwest, mostly rural, state that has had relatively low levels of COVID and never had an official “shelter in place order” (that’s an entirely different rant!) Leadership has been handling COVID “fine” – not great, but not terrible. They were slow to close to outside visitors and to let those of us who could work from home. The WFH people were told that we can all plan on being back to the office on Monday, June 29th. I think this is the dumbest idea I’ve heard. First, you’re not supposed to bring everyone back at the same time. Second, we’re bringing everyone back just in time for everyone to celebrate a major holiday and come right back to work. Did I mention my state has one of the lowest rates of people wearing masks in public? I’d push back but A) everyone has their own office and we’re a relatively small number of people and B) my state is also one of the many states that is starting to experience an uptick in cases again so I have the feeling that coming back to work is not going to last for long!

    1. WellRed*

      We have 12 employees, mostly well spaced due to office space (but not private offices), and we are still going back in phases (if we want, we don’t have to) so, like 3 people in the first phase to meet the 25%. So, just because a company is tiny, yeah, it’s ridiculous to go back if not necessary.

  41. Orange*

    If you lose your job in the middle of job searching/interviewing, how do you notify the employers you’ve already spoken to? I think I’ll have to leave my current job soon (not due to the pandemic). I’ve already sent out a bunch of resumes that show me as currently employed, and spoken to recruiters/interviewed with some organisations. Any advice is appreciated, thank you!

      1. Orange*

        Might be fired (unless I quit first! I kid, I wouldn’t quit without another job in hand)
        This isn’t the right fit for me so I think the decision would be mutual, it’s about who brings it up first.
        Context that I feel is important here: very high attrition rate in the industry, very stressful, mandatory 60 hour weeks all year long, most people are fired/quit within their first year. I’ve already been here a couple of years now. I’m applying to jobs in different but related fields where I can use the skills I’ve gained but avoid the parts of this job I’m not good at.

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t see why you’d need to? It’s easy enough if they call you in for an interview, to explain that (and this is true even without a world health crisis). Update resume for going forward.

    3. WellRed*

      I don’t see why you’d need to? It’s easy enough if they call you in for an interview, to explain that (and this is true even without a world health crisis). Update resume for going forward.

    4. Alex*

      Definitely don’t have to. You didn’t lie on your application, and that would be obvious if for some reason they contacted your employer–they would say, “Oh Orange stopped working here on X date” and anyone with half a brain could tell that the date was later than your application.

      I mean, definitely be honest about it from here on out–but I’d argue that you don’t even need to volunteer it if it doesn’t come up, with people you’ve already spoken with. It’s not really relevant, except maybe that you can start asap!

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Unless of course (a) the prospective employer doesn’t bother to check (or even misreads) the date on the application, (b) the previous employer does not in fact add the last date worked there and the prospective employer doesn’t think to ask or (c) the previous employer got the departure date wrong and the date they gave was before the application.

        Yes, as Alison Green points out, a good prospective employer will check back with the applicant about that discrepancy. As she has also pointed out time and time again, jumping to a plausible conclusion (heaven knows how many applications are “inaccurate”) doesn’t even come close to the worst that employers do.

        A prospective employer may assume — and may expect you to understand that they will assume — that the information on the application continues to be true until you say otherwise. In other words, if you don’t volunteer the update, especially once they mention the old job, once they find out you actually left they may feel you lied by omission and permanently disqualify you.

        Proceed with caution. (And good luck!)

  42. Tabby Baltimore*

    In one of my workplaces, we are probably going to build a prototype document tracking application. I’m specifically looking for commenters’ thoughts (macro- or micro-level welcome) on what kinds of capabilities you find helpful when using that kind of software. Some of the things I’ve heard so far regarding tracking are: who’s got the document, from what date they’ve had it and for how long, how many times the document has been passed back and forth and between who, and how fast is the document getting through the system (which I guess could be “velocity”?). What other capabilities do you value in a document tracking system where the end result needs to be a fully-edited product that’s ready to be sent to/read by a high-level executive?

    1. A Frayed Knot*

      Automatic reminders when the document has been in someone’s queue for an extended period of time, say 48 hours (depending on deadlines). The system should send reminders to that person that X document is waiting for review. Also, a way to bypass the slow person, who may be on vacation or out sick – possibly, “Sorry. You took to long and missed your opportunity to provide input. This document has been sent to the next reviewer.”

    2. pancakes*

      I’ve mostly used Sharepoint for working on collaborative documents and it worked really well for our purposes. It might have all the features you need, rather than having to build an app from scratch. I’m not sure what you mean by getting through the system, though.

      1. Darren*

        Typically everything has an end to their workflow. At some point it’s finished (even if it’s just this iteration) for example:
        * A monthly report gets written, reviewed, edited, and finally dispatched to management
        * Offer letters get drafted, reviewed, amended, and finally dispatched to candidates
        * Invoices get entered, reviewed, approved, paid and then dispatched to a list of paid invoices that may be referred to for monthly/annual reporting.

        People typically refer to hitting that last step as getting through the system as it’s usually external to the document management system at that point (an email, part of the financial records archive, etc).

    3. Dancing Otter*

      Needed functions:
      A way to request access when someone has a file checked out. Human beings, being fallible, sometimes forget to check the file back in when they finish. Grrrrr…

      If you can manage it, a mandatory add-on for the editing programs (Word, Excel, etc.) that requires confirmation when closing a file, whether or not it should be checked back in – default to check in.

      A way to lock a file to further editing. This has been an issue for monthly reports, where the previous report is the starting point for the next month. There HAS to be a way to keep idiots from overwriting last month’s report, there just does!

      If your organization uses linked files (Treasury just loved these at one ex-job), please please please find out whether the DMS will permit those. Not all of them do, or there have to be special work-arounds, like having to have both files open. This can be a deal-breaker for users actually to use the DMS properly

      Organizing:
      Think really hard about the folder structure before you let the end users loose to add files higgledy-piggledy. Maybe restrict creation of new folders to whoever has to maintain the system. Text search is really slow: a poorly organized DMS can waste person-hours looking for things saved in unlikely spots; or duplicate files may be created when someone can’t find a file where they expect it to be.

      Yes, I know there can be keyword searches, based on the “catalog card” metadata, but there need to be some guidelines for that, too, or the same problems occur.

      The folder structure can also be part of the system security, where only certain users (by department or function) can access certain folders, or have levels of access (read only, comment, edit, create new).

  43. Me!*

    Question: how are other job seekers asking about COVID protocols? What language are you looking for? And what if the reality is different from what they tell you on the phone?

    IT’S STORY TIME

    Last week, I saw a job post for a nothingburger admin job, front desk at a staffing office (meh), but the pay was decent. So I tossed a resume at it (no cover letter). I didn’t expect any response. But someone —I’ll call her Sue— called me immediately to ask a few questions and see if I wanted to come in for an interview on Monday.

    Of course I asked about COVID safety, and Sue said it was okay to wear a mask and they had hand sanitizer in the building and in the office, etc. She said she wasn’t wearing one because she had trouble breathing, but I was more than welcome to do so. She told me a little bit about the work — it sounded very boring, but hey, I need a job. I decided to check it out.

    Monday, I met Sue in the office and she led me to a computer to take a short skills quiz. She cleaned the keyboard and provided sanitizer for me, then when I finished, she parked me in the conference room to wait for the hiring manager.

    Keep in mind that I was wearing a mask — black cloth with sugar skull-styled Star Wars motifs on it. (I made it myself!) Hiring manager (I’ll call her Jane) walked in. She took one look at me in my cute mask, and I swear, her brain broke.

    Jane comes in with, “Well I guess we’re not shaking hands?” I said jokingly, “No touchy touchy!” Then she started in. I was literally the first person who had come in with a mask on, nobody there was wearing any, was I sure I’d be comfortable with that, the big boss was taking it seriously but she didn’t think there was anything to worry about, it’s just the flu, “If I get sick I get sick,” it’s a PERSONAL LIBERTY to not wear a mask, when sales people who were working from home right now came back, they were going to talk a lot and lean over my desk and touch my stuff, someone would be right up in my face during training, etc. etc. on and on, forever and ever, amen.

    I debated walking out, but I decided to finish the interview and see how it went. But first, I had to interrupt her in order to ask about the work.

    Well, it went about as well as I expected after that. Jane seemed contemptuous that anyone could get anything done from home (the front desk person obviously could not do it and neither could she). I couldn’t tell if she was butt-in-seat or resented that she couldn’t work remotely. She also explained things that my extensive resume would indicate I already knew, as if I were a newbie admin and not someone with years of experience. I know she looked at it; there were red marks all over it.

    I wasn’t even out of the parking lot before I started begging the universe for a shot at another, better job, preferably far far away from here.

    It definitely fit the comment from the COVID exposure post about passive accommodation, since the big boss, while allegedly taking it seriously, had not implemented any mandatory precautions. And as ridiculous as Jane was, I really hope she doesn’t get sick.

    This morning, I received a rejection email (thank goodness!). She said they went with someone who had more industry experience, but I’m pretty sure she decided against me from the get-go. I wrote back that I’d decided it wasn’t a good fit for me since I was hoping to leave that kind of job behind eventually and I knew they wanted someone long-term (Sue had told me that). I couldn’t resist adding “Stay healthy,” at the end. >:)

    I feel like walking out would have been antagonistic. If this happens again, I’m not sure what I should do. I need a job really badly so I can find my own living space, but obviously, I don’t want to work with someone so careless, since if I get sick and can’t work, I can’t pay rent either.

    1. Disco Janet*

      I wouldn’t want to work there either! That being said, I’m used to interviews in pretty formal settings, so I also would’ve chosen a more plain mask and answered differently than “no touchy touch” – to me, that does seem out of step with most fields’ interview formality levels. As does responding to a rejection to basically say “well, I don’t want to work for you anyways!” I mean, you don’t, and I totally understand why! But in a situation like this I think walking out is the better way to go.

      I probably would have just said in the interview that health-wise this didn’t seem like a good fit, since you’re following the recommended cautions regarding coronavirus. Then thanked them for their time and left. I know leaving mid-interview is easier said than done, but that’s just my take on it.

      1. WellRed*

        “no touchy touch” I don’t like this language.

        But I think you dodged a bullet, they not only didn’t care about health protocols they needed to hammer it home (right from the start: “wear a mask IF YOU WANT TO.”)

        1. Me!*

          See my answer to Elspeth below; it sounded like she was joking around.

          I think Sue was trying to take it seriously, with the keyboard cleaning and the hand sanitizer, but I’m now questioning the reason for her pending retirement. She said it was because her husband was retired, but I know of a couple of people who’ve taken theirs early due to the pandemic. I wonder if it’s actually because the company (i.e. her boss) doesn’t seem to care. She said she has trouble breathing, which doesn’t necessarily translate to I-hate-masks.

          She also said Jane wanted someone long-term for that role, so I might have turned it down on that basis alone. I didn’t ask about potential advancement since by that time I was over it anyway.

      3. Me!*

        See my answer to WellRed below; Sue said there really wasn’t much chance of moving up, and that was on my mind when I went into the interview. I didn’t get a chance to ask Jane about it, though.

    2. Elspeth*

      Sounds like both sides dodged a bullet – you don’t have to work somewhere that isn’t taking Covid-19 seriously, and they don’t have to work with someone who wears an unprofessional mask design to an interview and says things like “no touchy touchy” (WTAF?). Yay for a win-win?

      1. Me!*

        To clarify, she did make the handshake remark in a joking manner (or so I thought) and I was responding in kind. I was told by Sue on the phone that they dressed very casually, but I wore regular formal interview wear. You can’t tell the mask is SW unless you’re very close to it, which would violate social distancing guidelines. It just looks like a flowery design.

        If you think I was being unprofessional, all I can say is you should have heard her. I can’t imagine subjecting an interviewer to a long rant on my personal beliefs re anything.

        1. other girl*

          I think that for an interview its better to wear a plain mask. Even a flowery pattern would be unprofessional

          1. Anom-a-lom-a-ding-dong*

            I personally can’t see why the pattern on someone’s mask would be unprofessional unless it had something offensive on it. I sewed my own masks with leftover fabric I happened to have lying around, and I assume most people don’t have a whole range of masks to choose from. People are making do with what they have. If I were able to choose, I probably WOULD go for something neutral for an interview, but I wouldn’t think any differently of someone who had a patterned mask.

          2. Me!*

            I think not. People everywhere are wearing patterned masks. I don’t know where you live, but they’re actually being sold as a fashion accessory.

            You know, it isn’t on me to be perfect when horrendous people are getting away with literal murder right now.

            2. RagingADHD*

              Well, there are all kinds of things being sold as fashion accessories that would be OTT for a job interview.

              I don’t get the murder comment. Is that a reference to Jane? Because if you mean police brutality, I really don’t see what it has to do with how you interview?

              1. Me!*

                Forgive me; I was just getting frustrated with people fixating on the mask pattern, which was not the issue here, instead of answering my questions.

    3. ...*

      I don’t agree with the positions she expressed and wouldn’t want to run my workplace that way, but it sounds like she was trying to give you fair warning about how the office handles masks, Covid, distancing, etc. Sounds like it was probably mutually not a fit? It doesn’t sound like you’d be comfortable with close up sales rep talking, training, or no masks. Bad interviews always suck! That being said, I would recommend wearing a mask in a plain color or a blue surgical mask, just for professionalism sake. It was rude of her to say “so we’re not going to shake hands”. I think that is really pointed. I maybe would have said something along the lines of “Yeah, skipping handshakes for now!” which has been my go-to phrase when in that situation.

      1. Me!*

        Yes, definitely not a fit. I wouldn’t mind close-up interaction if there weren’t a deadly contagious disease lurking about. Like I said, regardless of how weird Jane was, I really do hope nothing happens to her.

        I like that phrase; thank you for the suggested wording.

        1. ...*

          I’ve had some people just keep their hand out straight for a long time after that, I ended up doing a weird little arm dance thing once, but oh well!?

      2. pancakes*

        The interview definitely did serve as a warning, I think, but I’m not seeing how it’s a fair warning in any sense. To say we’re taking this seriously while emphasizing many ways in which they’re plainly not taking it seriously is incoherent. Wanting to be seen as a workplace that takes the pandemic seriously requires actually taking it seriously, not just making ineffectual pretenses at a higher-up taking it seriously.

        I don’t think wearing a mask with a fairly discreet novelty pattern to interview for a front desk job at an office that describes itself as very casual is a big deal. If it was an executive staffing firm and/or in a conservative city a plain one would definitely be better, but I don’t think the pattern had anything to do with the way this interviewer reacted here.

        1. ...*

          The vibe I got was that the company line was “we’re taking it seriously” but she was giving you the “real scoop”. Totally could be wrong though here.

        2. Me!*

          Thank you. I was so surprised by Jane’s reaction; it didn’t square at all with what Sue told me on the phone and how she took precautions with the keyboard.

          1. pancakes*

            Possibly Sue is taking those precautions on her own initiative and the culture there wouldn’t necessarily require her to.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I think Jane is foolish for her attitude & choices.

      But I think she was speaking directly to an extremely relevant issue – there are no distancing protocols in place, either official or cultural, and your safety concerns would not be accommodated.

      That’s actually more important for you to know than discussing the work, when you’re already overqualified.

    5. Me!*

      I’d like to thank everyone who pointed out where I erred. FWIW, had it been offered, I think I would have turned down the job for multiple reasons. I’m fortunate to have the resources I do while I’m still looking.

      I also think if this happens again I will just end the interview right there as politely as possible. Disco Janet had some really good phrasing for that; thanks, Janet.

    6. Annie Moose*

      Hey, I know this isn’t really the point of your comment, but… you seem pretty down on admin jobs. Admin jobs aren’t “nothingburger” jobs or a waste of time! Just because it isn’t your preferred career path doesn’t mean that it isn’t an important job that many people enjoy doing, or that admin work is beneath you.

      1. Oakley*

        You must be new here. In my experience, this particular commenter thinks that most jobs are beneath her.

        1. Product Person*

          What? That isn’t my experience at all with Elizabeth, and I’ve been here for years.

          I read her comment as meaning this particular admin job is terribly boring (unlike other admin jobs that have more substance,

          1. Me!*

            That’s exactly what I meant. I applied for several other admin jobs I would have been thrilled to get. I didn’t, unfortunately, because I wasn’t in the area yet.

      2. Proud admin*

        Besides a retail job when I was a student I have been worked admin jobs for my entire working life (22 years now). The only time I’ve ever felt disrespected about my job is reading the comments here. This one definitely isn’t even a one off.

      3. Me!*

        Not at all. I’ve been an admin for fifteen years. I’m pretty sick of it, but it’s not an unimportant job.

        There are great admin jobs; I enjoyed my last one, until it changed so drastically. This particular job was a nothingburger. There wasn’t anything to learn, and there was no chance of advancement. It was a total dead-end.

        1. Fulana del Tal*

          Respectfully, it’s still a job and you’ve been unemployed for a long time. The jobs that interest you aren’t responding and your learning disability severely limits the jobs you feel you can do. It seems to me you’re holding out for a job that may not exist and dismissing other jobs for not being your ideal job. If you were currently employed learning new skills/advancement opportunities are important factors for switching jobs but to me those concerns are premature when dealing with long term unemployment.

        2. Middle School Teacher*

          Based on your long unemployment, I don’t think you’re quite in a position to hold out for a job with learning opportunities and advancement. You need a job.

          1. Me!*

            Yes, that’s why I applied in the first place. I went to the interview because I thought it was worth checking out, even if I don’t think I would have stayed long-term.
            It makes no difference now. Jane already had her mind made up before we even got to my qualifications.

          2. Cassidy*

            >I don’t think you’re quite in a position to hold out for a job with learning opportunities and advancement.

            Oh, good grief, who is anyone else but “Me!” to decide that? Honestly, the commentariat around here can be a bit much.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Probably not a major point, but I seriously doubt the design on your mask posed any problem.

      It’s the fact that you were WEARING it that changed the conversation, even before the conversation started.

      I am seeing this happen a lot. Personal experience: Several volunteers agreed to get together to do a particular task. I said i would join them but I would be late. I put my mask on, but I figured out that these folks would space themselves out probably 10 feet or more , from each other. I walked into the area, they were spaced far apart like I suspected they would be. I noticed suddenly they pulled their masks up. And that was because *I* was wearing a mask.

      People see that mask and they draw conclusions… FAST. What happened with your interview, in my opinion of course, is that you were wearing a mask and in that moment she made up her mind about you. This wasn’t going to go well no matter what you said. So while you got informal pretty quickly, she gave up much quicker. My guess is that you could be the best candidate in the world for her job and she would have reneged anyway. She made her decision when she saw the mask and, right, she had no idea what the pattern was on the mask either.

  44. rageismycaffeine*

    Has anyone here ever successfully gotten managerial responsibilities removed from their role while maintaining their salary line/position or only taking a small pay cut? I absolutely detest managing, find it incredibly draining and stressful, and would basically take another job to get out of doing it. But I know my manager and workplace value me highly, and I might be able to have my two direct reports moved off of me. (Emphasis “might.”) I just don’t know a strategy for taking up this conversation.

    1. NW Mossy*

      While I haven’t done this myself, I know several people at my org who stepped down from manager positions back into individual contributor roles. Generally speaking, we aim not to make people take a major salary cut to do this, particularly when the person has strong technical skills we don’t want to lose. There’s a fair bit of overlap between high-level individual contributors and first-level managers in salary, so we can make it work much of the time.

      The caveat with this is while it can preserve more of your salary short-term, if you end up high in range for the individual contributor level, your wage growth will be very slow for a while. For example, if you’re making 810 peanuts a year today and the band for the non-managerial level is 770 to 820 peanuts, you can expect minimal/no raise until the bands shift significantly.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Thank you for this. I hadn’t really thought about wage growth and I’ll have to look in to the way salary banding works in my state university system if managerial responsibilities are removed. Granted wages have been frozen since 2009 unless you get a position change or get REALLY lucky, but still.

    2. Annony*

      If you want a major job responsibility removed, you are going to have to justify why you are still worth the same amount to the company. What will you be using that time for? That is the argument to make. You want to show them that your time will serve the company better by doing something other than managing the two direct reports.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        This is a really good point. My counterpoint would be that for the work I do day to day – completely independent of my supervision – I am already being underpaid in my industry, something I brought up to my manager before. I’d consider not having to manage anymore at the same salary line to be a pretty decent compromise if I can’t get a raise (which I probably can’t – state university at which raises are virtually impossible to get).

    3. PX*

      Frame it as a position/title change? Assuming you have enough work without the management duties, propose a “restructure” that makes you a technical expert/subject matter expert/something technical sounding so that you can focus on your core duties and someone else can do people management.

      This depends a lot on if there would be a logical person to pick up the people management outside you though…

      But as with many things in business, come up with a solid reason for wanting to do it, try to frame it in terms of how it benefits the company (not just you), then organise a meeting with your boss and pitch it to them.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Yeah, unfortunately, the people management would almost have to go to my boss. He was managing both of the positions that report directly to me before I came along. I think that would be the major hurdle here – whether he thinks he could take them back on again.

        I like this thought, though. We’ve been talking a bit about changing my title and my job description as a lot of what I’ve been doing since I joined is different from what my job is on paper. For all intents and purposes I’m my boss’s assistant director, when my title is director of a smaller area under him. (Like, I’m functionally the Assistant Director of Teapots, but my title is Director of Teapot Research.)

  45. Anonymous at a University*

    My university is pissing me off. They keep dithering around about whether we’ll have in-person classes during the fall; this last week they finally said that most will be hybrid and remote, but “you need to consider student need for live classes,” and they want us to have in-person office hours even though most of us don’t have large enough offices for students to be six feet from us and we “cannot mandate” social distancing during office hours, because “it’s the student’s choice.” Finally, faculty and staff have to wear masks, but students don’t, because “we have to respect students’ bodily autonomy.” It’s going to turn into a disaster area if one person gets sick, since all the students who are exposed to them will have to stay home for two weeks, so that’ll disrupt the live classes students “need” anyway. Just what is going through our administration’s heads?

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Also at a university, also banging my head against the wall at very similar things. Our state governor finally put out a mask mandate that goes into effect today, but it’s only for three weeks and may well be gone by the time students come back.

      I keep clinging to the idea that there’s still a month and change during which they might come to their senses and realize that in-person instruction is reckless and harmful. We’ll see.

      Sympathies for you, crossing my fingers for everyone working at a university right now!

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        I have sent this around to my coworkers and colleagues at other universities. Thank you for sharing it!

    3. Pamela Adams*

      Luckily, the California State University system bit the bullet early. The whole 23-campus system is virtual for Fall, with rarely granted exceptions for necessary in-person courses.

    4. Oxford Comma*

      They’re worried about losing money so they’re prioritizing that over your safety. That’s what is going through their heads.

    5. Senor Montoya*

      They don’t have to sit six inches away from dozens of students in tiny offices, that’s what’s happening.

      They’re jack holes.

    6. JustaTech*

      “Just what is going through our administration’s heads?”

      “The budget!!!!!”
      “If we make the students wear masks they’ll complain to their parents and … the budget!”
      “If we don’t let the students have in-person classes they’ll complain about paying full rates for distance learning and … the budget!”

      “I’m not taking responsibility for any of this.”

      I’m really sorry you’re having to deal with this. My undergrad has been sending out emails regularly where they’re like “we’re trying to figure out how to do school safely, but it is going to depend on what conditions are like as we get closer to the start of the semester and we are really sorry but we can’t be more specific”. And mostly people are respecting that they can’t tell us what they don’t know.

      At this point it would be easier for everyone’s planning to say “No, no in person classes, we can not risk the lives and health of our students, our faculty or our staff.” But then we get back to that budget issue.

    7. Mrs. Krabapel*

      K-12 teacher here in a school system that is going to bring back all of our students and allow personal choice for them to wear masks. I have no advice, just commiseration. It is truly disheartening that our employers have so little respect for our health and safety.

    8. Cassidy*

      >Just what is going through our administration’s heads?

      Tuition dollars. It’s what happens when universities operate on business models. You pay, and you can do whatever TF you want at anyone else’s expense.

      Even if it kills…

  46. Union Alexander*

    Does anyone have any advice for finding mentors as a college student?
    I’m entering my senior year in a civil engineering program and as I try to figure out what I want to do and where I want to go, I’m realizing that I don’t really have anyone in my professional/academic world who I could really Talk about my future with.
    My advisor is either uninterested in me as a student/person (I know it’s common, but I go to a very, very, very small school so this is hurting a little…) or incapable of holding a conversation, so he’s not very helpful. I have either a negligible or poor relationship with the rest of my major professors and I have no interest in talking to them more than the bare minimum.
    I’m interning right now and I have a supervisor and coworkers who are great and give me good perspective on a lot of things, but I’m uncomfortable sharing my like, hopes and dreams and fears with the men I see every day.
    Maybe I’m romanticizing the idea of a mentor, but there’s only so much my mom and my friends (and this comment section) can help me with and I feel…. lost, and scared, and like I should have found someone sooner and it says something about me that I didn’t.
    Woof, okay, a little more feeling in there than I meant to include, but any advice?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Respectfully, I think you’re putting a little too much pressure on the mentor relationship and yourself. It sounds like your supervisor and coworkers would be more than willing to sit down with you and discuss the field, so why not do that? You don’t have bare your soul to them, but you can ask some questions and give them a general idea of what you’d be interested in. They will likely have some good tips and resources, and they could become a valuable reference and network down the road. Plus, people love talking about themselves, so I bet they’d love to share their career trajectory and what worked for them.

      Also, it’s very common for students not to find a mentor earlier (or ever)! It doesn’t say anything about you as a student or a person. You’re busy, and other people are busy, and sometimes those relationships develop naturally, and sometimes they don’t, and sometimes you just don’t think about it until you need to. You may end up with one mentor ten years from now or have many mentors who each help you with one small bit of the puzzle or “anti-mentors” who show you what not to do. There is no one right way to do this!

    2. Picard*

      So… I would look at why you have such poor relationships with your existing profs? Especially at a small school they would absolutely be your target for networking…

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Yes, this sounds like a pretty serious problem to me. I was an ME major in a small department (huge uni, small dept.), and had a good relationship with a few professors and a positive relationship with the rest. This is a red flag. If you’ve burned bridges with people you’ve been working with for a couple years, why is that?

        It also sounds like your expectations for a mentor are not realistic. Your mom and friends are the right people to discuss hopes, dreams, and fears. Mentors are for asking professional-related questions. It would be okay to ask some more personal questions, like you worry that civil engineering isn’t right for you or that you would really like to find a permanent position at [hard to get into company] post-grad, but just your general anxiety and personal wishes aren’t topics to discuss with a mentor.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Also – you don’t “find” that deep, intimate relationship mentor. That just happens naturally with someone you happen to connect with who also takes a personal interest in you. You may never find that person.

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Yeah. I went to a small school, and the people who consistently had poor relationships with the professors also had serious issues they were generally not addressing (attitude, mental illness, whatever, the result was the same). Those types of issues don’t typically just magically go way.

        1. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

          Yup. I mean, my undergrad alma mater is a large school so it was probably more difficult to wind up and stay on an entire department’s radar. Even so, the people who did had pervasive stuff going on, and one has to remember that that’s even accounting for the fact that professors aren’t expecting a ton of maturity from 18-22 year olds.

          OTOH, I’ve seen people with social anxiety assume that their relationships are poor when they’re simply non-existent. That could be some of OP’s situation, who knows.

        2. pancakes*

          This is maybe a bit over the top, and unkind. Not having easygoing relationships with one’s undergrad professors isn’t synonymous with having serious issues. Neither is having poor relationships with some of them. There are prickly professors out there, and there are all sorts of other reasons professors and students don’t click. I think it’s fair to say Union Alexander is probably romanticizing the idea of a mentor a bit, but they already said so themself, and other people have weighed in on that too.

    3. Ranon*

      Civil engineering has some professional organizations- those are often good places to find mentors. Also if you fall into a minority category within civil engineering/ engineering generally the “x group in (civil) engineering” type organizations can be another place to look. Honestly if you’re looking to go into the profession and your professors are academics they’re only going to be so useful anyhow.

      In terms of the where and what questions looking at continuing education resources for folks already in the profession is a place you can find current topics of interest to the profession generally and might help give you some ideas too.

    4. Managing the New Llama Management*

      Could you ask your coworkers from your internship to connect you with other people in your field? The desire to not share personal details with your coworkers is pretty common. You can build friendly professional relationships with them and ask them to put you in contact with people in roles that may interest you in the future.

      In my experience, mentorship is a little bit like dating – you don’t just walk up to a stranger and ask, “will you be my mentor?” You develop professional friendships with people, and when you find someone with whom you have a personal rapport and who can speak to professional growth in your field, you ask to take the next step.

      Also keep an eye out for colleagues who are leaving the organization you are interning at. That’s a great natural way to remove the professional wall that is preventing you from asking them to be your mentor.

      Being lonely sucks. In a professional context, that “loneliness” can translate to difficulty understanding professional norms and not having a context against which to measure your experiences. I see you and I feel for you.

    5. irene adler*

      Are there any professional organizations in the civil engineering field that ideally have a chapter close to where you reside?
      Might reach out to them and ask about:
      -mentoring (getting one; not becoming one)
      -career advice
      -what they have in the way of networking opportunities
      -what they offer in the way of job hunting advice

    6. kt*

      I’m going to have a weird response here: YAY! I’m so glad you’re seeing this early-ish!

      I went to a very small school too, but one of the best in the world for engineering/STEM, and my advisor was profoundly uninterested in me. He only nodded; he agreed with everything; he provided no input of value. I also had a hard time with several other of my major professors, not because I didn’t do well, but because they regarded undergraduates as a waste of time unless they had placed in the International Math Olympiad (not kidding — that girl got to do a senior thesis, while when I went to ask two profs about doing a senior thesis, which I’d read about in the catalogue, they sort of stared at me… for a while.. and then one said, “I guess someone did a senior thesis… about ten years ago… I think I lost my only copy.” Yeah, I didn’t do a senior thesis.)

      So. Where did I find my support? Among postdocs and grad students in my department (I know this isn’t possible at a primarily undergrad institution). Among profs at *different* schools — I managed to get connected with some profs in my hometown, and went back and did research with one of them one summer, and he wrote me a letter of recommendation that got me into grad school. (Yes, I got a PhD in spite of my nonexistent relationships with my college profs — but I do think that lack of relationship held me back.) Now, later on in life, I’ve met people through Meetups in my fields of interest (I’m in data science as of recently). I also did a mentor program in early grad school through one of my national organizations. Last, I got a lot of support at times through the greater electronic community: bloggers and tweet-ers and etc.

      So: hometown profs? Early-career people you could connect with? National organizations, including the big-umbrella and the demographically-targeted ones? https://collaborate.asce.org/mentoring/home for instance might have something. Not kidding about Twitter, either: a quick search uncovers tons of institutional accounts and also folks like EngineerMimi_ who is telling her own story and retweeting info about podcasts, articles, and events that can allow you to connect to the broader community.

      It’s a great time to be practicing your informational interviews, too, not as a way of sharing your hopes and dreams per se but with a focus on learning about what people do in their jobs, what they like, don’t like, wish they’d done differently, etc. If you want, we can talk about trying to schedule quick Zoom informational interviews — but it helps to have a ‘warm lead’ there, so you can say, I participated on your webinar on (blah) and I was really interested by what you said about (blah). I’m entering my senior year and I (blah blah blah) — would you be willing to chat with me about your career path for twenty minutes next week?

      Heck, if you really want to go all in, you start a blog — how old-school — where you interview people & write about it for an audience of , well, people exactly in your position. Then you have another excuse for cold-contacting people and you build your network and you share your growing knowledge and you have a body of work that you can refer to when you’re out for interviews and are asked about your communication skills.

      You won’t find a mentor magically on a specific day. You’ll find many people to fulfill different needs at different times, and you too need to give back. Think of this as tending a garden or contributing to an ecosystem instead of finding a source of truth.

    7. Koala dreams*

      You don’t start out with a deep mentoring relationship, you start at with a coffee and chat (or similar). Maybe that’s it, maybe it’ll be something more. Also, it’s not necessarily the most experienced mentor that’s the best. A coworker who has a couple of years experience can give you advice about entry level roles, changing your mindset from a student to an employee, share interview stories.

      You can ask your manager or coworkers if they want to sit down for a chat about work and workplace norms, and if it goes well, you can see if they want to be your mentor, or has any advice how to find a mentor in your field. If not, just thank them for their time and look for support from professional organizations, meetup groups and so on.

    8. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

      There’s a slightly different way of approaching this: do you have good relationships with your peers, especially the ones who are active in the student/new grad arms of whatever professional associations are relevant to you? Tagging along with them to networking events and such will give you the opportunity to meet more senior professionals who might eventually be open to a mentoring relationship.

      A big part of being a good mentee is about being able to set good boundaries with your mentor…and general hope/dreams/fears stuff is probably not quite right for a mentorship relationship. If you have access to therapy/counselling through school or in your community, that’s a safe space to explore some of those non-professional concerns you have, which should give you an outlet other than your mentor. It’s also a place where you can explore why your relationships with your profs have been generally poor and whether there are any takeaways you need to consider for your professional relationships going forward. Best of luck!

  47. ES*

    Any tips on getting that first job when making a career change? I’ve been working in child care my entire professional career, but I’m making the switch to medical coding. I am currently enrolled in a program for this (I have a child development bachelors already) but I’m looking for a general medical office assistant job in the meantime. I’m a tough sell since I’ve always worked in child care and it’s a totally unrelated field, any tips on how to make the change?

    1. Four lights*

      If you haven’t already sit down and think about what skills will transfer. I would say you’re used to working with people, think about what sort of paperwork and organization skills you had to have. Then make sure those are on your resume. Write a good cover letter that addresses this. Basically, already answer the question that someone’s going to have on hiring you which is what does someone in child care have to offer that office.

      1. ES*

        I was a director at my last center so lots of skills transfer, which is a benefit. I definitely wrote my resume and cover letters in a way that focuses on those skills. It’s still a struggle, though, waiting for someone to take a chance on me.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      As a manager of medical coders:
      –What kind of program are you in? Does it involve externship(s)? What certification do you expect to come out with at the end? What kind of coding are you wanting to get into in the long run?
      –Have you taken courses like medical terminology, and do your application materials reflect that? (If you have and they don’t, they definitely should.)
      –Are you looking for an office assistant job because you think that specifically is a good first step, or because you’re angling for an entry level opening in medical administration and that’s the first thing that springs to mind?

      That last question is because personally, rather than office assistant, I would recommend looking at openings for patient financial navigation, customer service, or registration (maybe even billing, though they might want more med admin experience first) for a larger hospital system, if you have anything like that around. All of those will provide you with some level of familiarity with the hospital’s administration systems and how they operate, and more importantly, once you’re already in the hospital’s revenue cycle department, you are WAY more likely to have options available to you for externships and job shadowing at that hospital. We’re also more likely to interview newly certified coders who at least have work experience in our system, even if it’s not truly coding experience, and a reference from a manager that we have some familiarity with.

      1. ES*

        Thank you, this is so helpful! At the end of the program I’ll have an associates in medical coding and billing, the program is entirely online.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          There are two certifying bodies for medical coding. AHIMA certification exams (at least, the ones that will qualify for a coding position) are only open to people with degrees that are specifically in Health Information Management – like, I had a bachelor degree in public health, two masters degrees and fifteen years experience, and they still told me to come back when I had a HIM degree from an approved program.

          AAPC has more flexibility, but requires 2 years experience (or one year of experience and a certain number of hours of coding education) before you can get an unrestricted credential. (Before that point your credential reflects you as an apprentice.)

          If you are not credentialed by one of these two organizations, your chances of being hired to a coding position are pretty much nonexistent. That’s what I meant by what certification do you expect to come out of your program with.

  48. Disco Janet*

    Any other teachers here stuck in limbo about what will happen in the fall? For me, this is a career change I made two years ago – my first year teaching, I got hired by a charter school in late August, so I didn’t really get to plan in advance. Second year I got hired by an amazing public school district, again at the end of August, and they use a different text and curriculum than the charter, so again I didn’t really get to plan in advance. I thought this would FINALLY by the year where I went into things somewhat prepared…but nope, looks like we’ll all be flying by the seat of our pants!

    How is everyone feeling about the fall? We’re kinda in limbo here in Michigan – our numbers were looking really good as our governor was quite strict with our lockdown and regulations, but now things are starting to open back up, and not surprisingly cases are rising. We’re supposed to receive a plan around the end of the month and I’m very curious as to what it will look like – especially since I’m a mom and a teacher, so if students are only coming into the building part-time but I’m teaching in person full-time, things are going to get quite tricky. I’m expecting that we’re probably going to have to teach both in person and online and that grading is going to be a nightmare.

    1. Texas*

      I am making myself sick worrying about the fall. I’m in a big, Covid-filled city in Texas and so far it looks like school is going ahead like normal. I feel like it’s insane to be going back in August, when the only plan my private school has released just applies to admin/office staff. I am considering quitting a good job that I love with nothing lined up because the thought of going back into my germ-bubble classroom causes me so much anxiety. :(

    2. Dumpster Fire*

      I’m feeling like we’re in complete limbo. I’m in one of the states which is doing really well (northeast); my district – while not wealthy, and having a large percentage of “high needs students” – was as well-prepared as any. All of our 6-12 students have school-issued chromebooks, we have cohorts of students through 10th grade, we’re heavily into Google Classroom, etc. Our state just issued guidance that we should try to have as many kids in school as possible, while at the same time being ready for hybrid and/or fully remote….all at the same time, potentially. And of course the parents will decide what their kids will do, and we’ll need to adapt on the fly. I’m really not sure how I’m going to handle 140 students, in five sections, of three different classes, in three different modes.

      The guidance from the state is very fluffy – I wish it had more “do this, don’t do that” instead of suggestions and caveats; and it seems (to me) to be completely lacking in concern for the adults in the building.

      I guess one good thing is that a lot of students and parents realized that school works a lot better for them when they’re actually IN school, and maybe have a newfound respect for their teachers, and actually missed school.

      Assessing and grading is going to be a horror show, and I’m really concerned about how to emphasize student accountability for those who aren’t in school (either at all, or part time) and maintain some semblance of academic integrity.

      All of that being said, my administration and department are really supportive, asking us what we need and (it seems) listening to us, and I’m looking forward to teaching in my classroom instead of at a card table in my living room!

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      We have been told to plan for three scenarios: back to normal, hybrid, or all online. Knowing our government (I am in the Texas of Canada) I expect we will be back to normal. I feel like my workload will double no matter which happens. Plus I’m doing my masters and teaching a class I haven’t taught in over ten years.

    4. Not This One*

      Massachusetts just released guidance for the fall yesterday afternoon…I’m gonna be honest, I haven’t read it yet. We just started summer vacation on Tuesday, and I’m just not ready to think about September, and if social media reactions from people I know and trust are any indication, I’m gonna get upset reading it. And honestly, in a state that (like much of Michigan!) doesn’t go back until after Labor Day anyway, there is still so much time for things to change in either direction.

    5. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Also in limbo here. We’re amazingly lucky where I am, but who knows what September will bring? There is a plan coming…sometime… My region has been great about shutting things down quickly and thoroughly, opening carefully, contact tracing and listening to public health so I do trust that the right decision will be made, but I would really like to know what that decision is. So far the only things we know for sure is no shared supplies and that we should be prepared for another sudden shut down. Are you teaching the same things in the Fall? I’m going through my collection of activities and trying to focus on which are possible via eLearning, what could be done with some tweaks and what won’t work at all. My biggest worry right now (school wise) is how to build community with the new students (so they’ll actually ask me for help) if we don’t get to meet face to face.

      1. Dumpster Fire*

        I’m in Massachusetts, where things are calming down with regard to the virus; the “new” guidance doesn’t provide much of anything new, tbh. 28 pages of old…. According to the document, the CDC recommends 6′ of space but the WHO says 3′ is adequate, so “try” to have 6′ but you must have at least 3′. It doesn’t say HOW to measure 3′, though – from desk edge to desk edge? Center to center (in which case they’d probably be similar to usual – which is NOT enough!) I’m teaching two new classes and one that I’ve had for a few years; one of the new classes is completely new, so I’ll be making it up as I go! Can’t wait….

        I agree, though, that I’m going to struggle with class culture if we’re not in the same room – a lot of my “charm” really only comes out in person :-)

    6. California*

      Also in a state where cases are surging and the makeup of our school, community, and staff is mostly people from disproportionately impacted subgroups. We are also supposed to receive a plan soon, but everything I’ve heard so far is just a jumbled mess of possible scenarios and contingencies. Parent feedback has been that they want either full-distance or full in-person, no hybrid, and given the number of siblings groups in our school, multigenerational households, and parents/guardians who are public-facing essential workers, I can’t see any way for us to safely return in the Fall. I’m focusing my input on ways to strengthen our distance learning program, including strategies for family communication, but I definitely think there will be strike threats if they expect us to go into in-person instruction in August.

    7. Anne The Teacher*

      I’m in GA and not only that I’m in a major hot spot… one of the top ten hot spots in the nation. (Most of the cases are in the local prison and nursing homes… but, these places have employees who I assume go grocery shopping, go to the pharmacy, etc.) We have been told repeatedly by the administration of our private school that the first day of school for in person instruction will be August 12th unless a government official says we cannot do that. I do know that everyone – staff and students- will have to wear masks and that there will be a temperature check each day. I assume that there are more safety precautions in the works, but I don’t know what they are. I wonder if they are going to install plastic barriers? What will lunch look like? How many students will be in each room? I’m assuming that we won’t allow the students to share items— which will be different and I can envision being a challenge. What will the hall look like as the students change classes?? Will we wipe down desks before each class change?? So many questions?? Plus, how does anyone expect schools to practice social distancing?? I just do not know. But, whatever it will look like, we’re doing it starting August 12th.

  49. TrollopeKing*

    How much notice or communication are folks getting before starting a new role in COVID times? I’m starting a new role in a few weeks, but haven’t heard from my new manager yet on what to expect for onboarding, or anything for that matter since I accepted the offer back in a April. I know this manager to have their plate full and foot on the gas always, so I wonder if they just haven’t had the time to sit down and send a note about expectations.

    Thoughts?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I would send an email, but don’t stress if you don’t hear back right away. Just something like “Hello New Manager, I just wanted to check in if there was anything I needed to know about onboarding or logistics before I start as an Underwater Basket Weaver on July 15”.

  50. Ashley Banks*

    So it has been a month and my company has yet to issue a statement or otherwise say anything to us employees about the current Black Lives Matter / Stop Racism movement. I’m so disappointed. Especially because the company was founded by a black person, is currently 100 pre cent black owned and has at least 1/3 of the staff being black (as well as a good chunk of the rest being other POC instead of just all white which is higher than the demographics of our area). We don’t get anti bias training and there is nothing ever said about diversity. To say I am upset is an understatement and when I have tried to say anything during our Zoom meetings my focus is immediately pushed back to work matters. It is just really disheartening at what I thought was a great company.

    1. Millicent*

      My personal take is that I would rather work at a company that treats BIPOC as equal and valuable contributors than one that can release a statement which effects zero change.

      1. Monica Bing*

        Just because a company is black owned and hires lots of POC doesn’t mean it is a good place to work or that employees are treated well. The OP has other complaints about the company besides the lack of a statement about the current situation.

        1. Millicent*

          I didn’t say anything about it being a good place to work or that employees were treated well. I have worked at numerous companies where I was the only or one of very few non-white employees, all of which released meaningless statements recently that would not have changed the diversity of their staff. And my personal preference would be to work at a company that has diversity in roughly the same (because more would be almost unachievable, though it sounds like OP’s company did it) proportions as in the general population.

      2. Elenia*

        I agree with this and didn’t know how to put it. I mean, my organization released a statement and a Pledge to do Better or some shit. Yet when I look around nearly everyone is still white (I am not). I don’t care about your stupid pledge or your statement, it means nothing to me if it doesn’t cause any direct action.

        I really like my job and I love the people I work with, but sometimes they are tone deaf. I don’t want a statement but I also don’t want to be put in the position of educating others. I dunno. I don’t have a good solution, I just don’t like Statements I guess.

        1. The Grey Lady*

          Just for clarification because I’m confused by your statement, you said that your company released a pledge, but when you look around everyone is still white.

          Are you saying that there should be more black employees by now? If your company released a statement in the last month or so, then that would be awfully fast to make those kinds of changes.

          Granted, I don’t know your company, so it’s definitely possible that they really are doing nothing and just released a statement because it sounded good. And it’s definitely not your responsibility to educate others on what they should do.

          I’m just pointing out that if your company is really trying to make positive changes like they say (and hopefully they are) it’s going to take time and consistent efforts over several months and years.

          1. Avasarala*

            I agree with Elenia’s point: It took the recent riots for leadership to realize they have to take action on diversity, and the action they chose is to release a “we value everyone” statement. Not examine their compensation structure or hiring methods or antibias training. Just the statement. And it just occurred to them to do this NOW.

            The statement means nothing. Actions mean more. So if a company is taking action but didn’t release a statement, that’s actually preferable.

    2. Anon for this*

      Our company treats people well but lacks diversity. The CEO put out a statement to employees and hosted a zoom call. I ( white person) appreciate the effort but also kinda rolled my eyes. HQ is in the Midwest but they keep scheduling things so The East coasters would have to participate after hours (hard for many) and such an important topic should have priority. Did I mention the exec team is totally white and like 90% male? And care to guess what depts the two women execs head up? #somuchworktobedone

    3. RagingADHD*

      Since the ownership is 100% Black, I would be really loath to dictate how they are supposed to do anti-racism.

      Nothing in the current situation is new, except the amount of attention it’s getting from white people. I would assume the business owners had to decide how to deal with systemic racism long before now – like, in childhood.

      I think they’re entitled to stick with what has felt right to them all along.

      1. pancakes*

        Good point — a lot of things in the news right now will likely not have been new news for company leadership here.

    4. pancakes*

      Not talking about diversity during meetings doesn’t necessarily mean that the company doesn’t have materials about diversity available on its website, in its annual reports, etc., or that it doesn’t collaborate on diversity-related initiatives within the industry — it might be worth a look in those places if it’s important to you to see something in writing. That said, it sounds like you’re expecting a lot from the type of statement you’ve hoped they’d make, almost like you’re expecting a mission statement to have arrived in your in-box. Some companies are big on that sort of thing and some aren’t, and the ones that are aren’t necessarily better places to work, nor necessarily more committed to having a diverse workforce.

    5. kt*

      Warning, I’m going to be very blunt here:

      I have heard a sentiment something like this from some Black colleagues: “Nothing’s any different for us; now we’re suppose to jump because you suddenly care?”

      If it’s a great company, take that into account. What are you upset about, exactly? Are you upset that you’re not supported in your learning journey? Think about why you expect that from your employer and whether you’d expect it from white employer. Do you feel that the company is falling behind on hiring good candidates without regard to color? Do you think there is persistent bias among the employees?

      It’s a good time to be very thoughtful about this. Why does your anti-racism journey have to go through your employer? Why do these Black business owners and colleagues need to participate in that journey with you? If a Black manager of yours already has to worry while driving and worry while picking up a package from a friend’s porch and etc., etc., why should s/he have to also process your grief and rage at work? Sometimes work is a respite.

      Most companies are putting out statements because they’re pretty sh*(&y about hiring, retaining, and promoting Black people. If your company is good at this, why do they need to put out a statement? I’d ask, why isn’t their success in this world it’s own statement?

  51. Kate*

    I’m teaching llama grooming to kids as after-school activity in a local school, but it’s of course very much a part-time job. Also, this school has only up to 15yo children, and the best talents in llama grooming usually leave at 12yo for some animal-science-specialized schools, so I’m mostly teaching little kids not to stick their fingers in llama eyes, when I used to teach international level llama grooming before my move years ago, and while I like working with little kids, I’d like to teach at a more advanced level as well.
    I’d like to find some more school(s) to offer my skills for new school year. I have set my eyes on two schools – one is one of those schools talents tend to move to, for kids aged 12-19, another is near to my heart for unrelated community reasons, also for kids up to 15 like my current one. So I’m thinking of writing them e-mails suggesting that an after-school llama grooming group would be a wonderful thing to have. I think I know how to approuch the first school – mostly what I wrote here: how I have missed working with older kids talented in handling animals, and how such kind of group would surely be an asset to their veterinary-oriented school. The second school is a bit of problem, though, especially as ran into their headmistress a couple days ago in an event and when I tentatively suggested that I could do a llama grooming group for them…, she said “oh, we don’t have kids at this level at all!” withoug giving me a chance to explain that I’m fine starting at “don’t put your fingers in llama eyes” level.
    This covid-19 is in some sense fortunate, as I had to teach online for three months, and as a result I have a public blog I could refer to saying “you can get an idea of what I have been doing” (with a remark for the first school “but remember, this is for kids too young to be in your school, so surely I’d have higher level exercises for your students”). Any thoughts about the second school, and maybe if pitching myself like that is a good idea at all? (But there’s no way they’d become even aware that there’s this wonderful possibility for students to learn llama grooming on their own.)

    1. Disco Janet*

      If you’re in the US, be aware that this is going to be a very tough sell – most states are talking serious budget cuts due to COVID. My school is generally very financially stable and I’m very luck that we haven’t laid anyone off (since I’ve only been there. year), but I know they are tightening their belt and having to make cuts to some extracurricular s right now, so I’m having a hard time imagining schools finding the room in their budget to add a new program.

      1. Kate*

        Not in US, but yes, similar problems. But even if they can’t fit it in this year, maybe to just put the idea into their heads for the future, or would it be a bad timing for that?

        2. kt*

          Eh, keep pitching and see what sticks. This may be a seed that requires 2-3 years to germinate — that’s the problem. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t plant it.

          1. Kate*

            Oh, I know about those seeds… There were these teachers of llama-keeping in one school who thought it would be wonderful if the extra llama-grooming for more talented students would be done by someone else, for example me, but I guess headmaster etiehr didn’t like the idea or school didn’t have funding for that.

            But still I wonder, what to do with the second school, whether to offer them at all, and if yes, then how to word it? (And although their headmaster said they don’t have that talented kids, I can see one of their students has even gotten a lesser award in a llama-grooming competition.)

  52. Jaid*

    I finally got THE call to go back to work. In the middle of July.

    The boss said that my department will be spread out in a “checkerboard” pattern, so who knows where I’ll actually end up sitting. There’s other stuff about break room and elevator usage, but I’m not expecting too much crap.

    However, I still get updates from my friend who’s getting emails from work about how whole floors are cleared if someone tests positive. The floor is then disinfected and everyone comes back a day or two later, if I recall. The last email was from last week…

  53. QuinleyThorne*

    Gov. just put out an executive order closing all the bars down again starting today at noon. Also as far as I can tell, he didn’t like…tell any other state agencies he was doing that. Thankfully, we at least have the experience from when they were closed before the reopening, so I’ve just been able to tell people that it applies to they’d just have to go back to operating how they were before. The only bars that can stay open are the ones that serve food though, so I have a sneaking suspicion we’re gonna start getting complaints about what I like to call our “problem children” again.

  54. NaoNao*

    Should I ask my boss for more transparency and clarity around leaderships’ insistence on a “plan for return” to our offices?

    I work in a non essential business that did a rapid 180 from “butts in seats” to almost all WFH. The company is owned by a private equity firm so that may be driving some more “bottom line” decisions and directives we’ve seen, such as waiting until the last possible minute state-ordered lockdown to “strongly suggest” WFH and pushing for a return before we were “opened up” as a city.

    My boss asked me how I feel about a convoluted plan for part-WFH in the next few months. I expressed that if it was a must I would make it work but pointed out that I rely on public transportation and I don’t feel safe on that right now. She responded back with a frustrating “plan” that she is considering wearing a mask and gloves and changing shoes after taking the train/bus. I reiterated that I would make it work if I was being told it was a must at left it at that. She said she “sensed” I wasn’t enthused about coming back soon so she would put me on the August 21 rotation of one week on, one week off (which I’m not sure what the hell that’s supposed to do). I said that sounded fine.

    I am FURIOUS over this. It’s not my boss’ fault or choice. She noted that the leadership is “insisting” on a plan for return up to 50% occupancy. The only reason she’s mentioned so far is that they pay rent and they don’t want to “walk around and see an empty building” and there was a comment recently that “well, our CEO said if people are out having brunch, they should be coming to the office” and, aghast, I responded (during a team call) “Honestly I don’t really care what other people are doing, I have to do what is safe for me” and my boss “clarified” “Oh, [Our CEO] meant people at the office”. How does our CEO know people from the office are having brunch?!?! Did she ask people about their weekend and then use that information to penalize them?!?! One socially distanced brunch outdoors is in no way equivalent to twice daily germ-factory bus rides/train rides! AUGH.

    I would really like to ask something like “may I ask off the record what the reasoning is behind the insistence for a return to office when we have active new cases and no vaccine right now? It feels like we’re being told to risk our health and the health of loved ones for very unclear reasons.” But I’m very emotional and angry over this and don’t want to be pushy or rude or risk my job, which I feel very lucky to have right now.

    Help?

    1. WellRed*

      Your boss asked you what you thought, but you seem to have stepped around telling her directly. I don’t think asking what the reasoning is will get you anyheere, though. The reasoning is the CEO wants it and doesn’t care what the rest of you think. I also think the brunch comment is a bit telling about the CEO’s REAL opinion is on WFH.

    2. Grumpy Lady*

      I completely understand your frustration. I work for an agency that has never supported WFH until the pandemic started and has been pushing for me to return to the office despite our state slowly reopening and me being high risk. I was angry AF when they asked me to come in despite my doctors note.

      That being said, as my husband says, reality gets a vote. People cant WFH forever and businesses want to get back to full operations. My best advice is to recognize that being angry is justified; I was pissed off for a week about going in for a few days. Make sure that your individual situation is being addressed by your manager. Will you be able to socially distance yourself at work? Do you have a private office or separation from other people? Will they stagger where people sit? Make masks mandatory? Do temperature screenings? I stopped taking public transportation for now and am driving to work but I decided I would be more comfortable riding public transport again when we are at phase 3 or 4 of reopening. Will your work provide you with parking to help you stay safe? You have to determine what steps you can take to keep you safe but you should also ask your boss for help with things if you think they can provide them to you.

    3. Senor Montoya*

      If you tell the boss you’ll make it work, you shouldn’t be surprised that she’s trying out plans to make it work

      If you are strongly against it, then you need to make that clear.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This.

        OP, you mention that you are really angry. Well, if I were in this spot I might be tempted to point out that “needing to see people at their desks to justify the rent payment” is really not a strong reason for bringing people back to work so soon. I’d ask if anyone has done the calculation to figure out what it costs the company if ONE person gets Covid.

        As far as brunching together, I laughed out loud. Are your cohorts posting pics of brunch together on the net? That is an assumption. I would ask your boss if there is any proof of these brunches and if so how often are they happening?

        I think the real punchline here is that if you say no you won’t come back to work in the office you suspect you will lose your job. If this is the case, I would say to the boss, “Very few people are going to tell you no they do not want to come back because very few people can afford to lose their jobs. This question will probably not get answered with full honesty.” You can go on to explain, that “If the Big Boss thinks so little of us that he is sure we are brunching together, then this really seems like a slippery slope question.”

  55. anon today*

    I’m just whining today. My little Texas town lost it’s 28th COVID patient yesterday. I have announced 28 COVID deaths since Easter. I knew a lot of them. And I’m buckled up because I think our COVID ride is just beginning. I’m just sad and tired. And seriously questioning why I chose media 20 years ago.

    2. Anne Shirley*

      Feeling for you. I am surrounded by people who personally know no one who has had it or had died from it. I am from Brooklyn NY. You can do the math. I am grieving and surrounded by people who think “its a bad flu”

      1. anon today*

        I 100% know the feeling. I told my husband that COVID has changed me completely, everything about my life, and it’s so weird to speak to people who flat out think it’s fake. And boy have I been called every name in the book. Reporting COVID in Texas is tough.

    3. beanie gee*

      I am so sorry.

      Thank you for your work. I hope the deaths that you’ve reported have opened other people’s eyes to the reality and that eventually lives will be saved.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes. You’re in media to tell stories of those who have no voice as well as to provide the public with information ( whether they want it or not).

      2. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Unfortunately I’m seeing that if you point out COVID deaths, the deniers say well the person must have had underlying health issues, or the beloved “fact” trotted out saying that COVID hurts those who are obese, so as long as you’re not fat, you’re OK. It’s…gross. and it’s sad. and I’m sorry OP you’re going through this.

  56. user7420*

    I’ve been in my current position for several months. The job is great but very intensive. The expectations towards my team are huge. I manage several people.

    One of them completely lacks proactiveness and always gives me plenty of reasons why a task I want to give her will take 5 times longer than it should (I know I have more experience than her, but these are tasks where you need some communication skills, some logical thinking and diligence, no special knowledge). She’s been also giving me very similar status of her (very limited) tasks every week. Basically she doesn’t do much.

    I encourage her to ask questions and contact me any time she needs, but she doesn’t. (No, she’s not shy, she’s actually slightly arrogant, which only makes the situation worse).

    HR tells me to have patience with her, but I will miss my targets if she doesn’t start to work properly and my org is known for firing persons who don’t meet their goals. Currently I’m doing my tasks and hers, working extreme hours.

    1. user7420*

      Oh and the question is: What should I do?

      I don’t have anything against her personally but find her ill-suited for our job. She’s more of an artist and we are engineers.

      1. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

        Can you elaborate a bit more about her “slightly arrogant” issue? I’m trying to put this into words somehow, but her not needing to ask you questions isn’t necessarily an issue if her bottleneck isn’t one you can fix.

    2. EJane*

      Does she keep to the deadlines that you discuss, even if they’re 5 times longer than they should be?

      1. user7420*

        She doesn’t “get” “deadlines”.

        So we discuss that she will e.g. do A, B and C in the next week. A week is much longer than she needs. After 3 days I ask her for a short status update since we really need to deliver A, B and C in a week. She tells me she’s still working on A so wasn’t able to start B or C. So I jump in to save the day. I’m working for 2 persons.

        So no, she’s not meeting the deadlines.

        1. user7420*

          She seems not to be able to tackle 2 or 3 (related!) topics simultaneously. So she e.g. sends out an email and then she tells me: I wasn’t able to move on because I’m waiting for a reply to my email.

          Of course she should have worked on the remaining two aspects while waiting for the reply. We’ve discussed that. But she’s simply not into it. She likes having one small topic on her agenda and plenty ot time to socialize (which is ok – colleagues are important, but keeping a sane balance between being friendly to people and delivering results is too).

        2. EJane*

          That could be easily used to put her on an unofficial PIP, especially if they’re deadlines you agree on ahead of time. The first place to start would be the flaky “Oh we agreed on this but things changed~~~” thing that she does. She’ll probably act out against it or ignore it for the first week, at least, but with those expectations laid out in writing (just in an email or something that she has to acknowledge, so long as there’s a record), it gives you a solid place to start.

        3. The New Wanderer*

          Not “getting” deadlines isn’t an acceptable excuse, she’s flat out ignoring them and not receiving any consequences. Avoiding doing other work using flimsy excuses that don’t actually impact her ability to do the other work isn’t acceptable. I think you have plenty of justification for putting her on a PIP immediately and potentially firing her for inability to do her work at anywhere near the level needed.

          Follow whatever your standard PIP or disciplinary process is, but this isn’t a matter where HR should be saying have more patience. This is negatively impacting you and your team’s ability to meet deadlines, and the answer isn’t “user7420 just does two jobs while her employee slacks off.”

        4. Anon attorney*

          Doing her job for her us not managing her.

          You need to set expectations and consequences then enforce those consequences.

          Lots of guidance on this here site about doing this. But I think you might need to move away from wondering why she’s not productive and towards requiring her to be productive.

    3. Observer*

      Start documenting what is going on. And you may need to be a bit more micromanagy with her. I know, micromanaging is considered a dirty word here. But this is EXACTLY the kinds of situation Allison talks about when she talks about why some managers are micro managers. So, like EACH day she tells you what she is going to be working on, in the morning. And before she leaves, she lets you know what she’s done – and expliang why she didn’t accomplish what she said she would.

      Ask HR for some help in coaching her. Also, exactly what is the protocol for not getting work done in a way that makes it likely that the team won’t meet its goals.

      Also, ask them if they are going to protect your

      1. Observer*

        I see I didn’t end my last sentence.

        Ask HR if they will protect your job if her incompetence keeps your team from meeting targets?

      2. MacGillicuddy*

        It sounds like techniques that are used to help kids who have executive functioning problems, ADD, or general “scatteredness” would be useful. BTW I’m not trying to diagnose this person.

        I had a boss who did the following for all of her reports because it was a useful visual aid for her, but would work here.

        This is a very granular method, so I don’t know if you have time to do this, but it might be worth trying for a few weeks.

        Make a physical paper calendar with big squares you can write in. Get different color highlighters for each task. Example: in first days block, write “research task A” and highlight in yellow. Second day block: write 2 bullets: “compose paper for task A” and “send task A to for review”. Highlight these items in yellow.
        Third day block write 2 bullets: The first: “wait for reviewers to return their task A comments” and highlight in yellow. Second bullet, write “research task B” and highlight that in orange. And so on for. that week’s squares.

        You can do this together with your wayward employee. Then after you’ve filled up a week or so, go over the squares with her. Point out and say specifically to her things like “while you are waiting for a reply to your thing A email (point to the yellow highlighted bullet), you need to work on the research for thing B” (point to the orange highlighted bullet).

        Don’t ever assume that this employee will figure something out unless you point it out. You can also say “while you’re waiting, you can’t just do nothing until you get a reply. You need to do the next thing .“ Your instructions to her need to be very specific, unambiguous, and not couched in softness or suggestion. So for example instructions in an email would be in a 3 bullet list “Write draft on Tuesday. Proofread and edit on Wednesday. Give me the finished copy on Thursday”.

        The problem you describe with this person should have been addressed for when they were in middle school, when it becomes obvious that smart but disorganized kids can’t handle changing classes & multiple assignments. Then again, some schools just let those kids fall through the cracks, when they should be giving them techniques and systems that help.

    4. valentine*

      my org is known for firing persons who don’t meet their goals.
      Why doesn’t this apply to your employee?

      She’s treating work like a favor she deigns to do amidst socializing, and like a child dawdling on chores because she knows the adult will get fed up and do them. If she honestly cannot physically stop waiting and figure out how to rotate tasks, that’s not your problem to solve. Are you not allowed to fire and replace her with someone who can work independently and is able to switch tasks and follow up on what they’ve asked of colleagues?

  57. Amber Rose*

    VLOOKUPs are magic but even they can only do so much with this extremely messy, weirdly offset data we exported from our old and extremely terrible accounting system. Still, it’s more efficient to edit a couple hundred VLOOKUPs than copy 250,000 cells individually one by one!

    Google Docs Excel can go eat a bag of flesh colored Hannah Montana guitar-shaped gummies though. :[

    1. moron5*

      Basic R or Python can help too. With this big amount of data working with Excel can be hard ;)

        1. Liralen*

          If your data has strange spacing or offsets in it that you need to fix, you can use the TRIM formula to clean it up.

    2. AngstyAdmin*

      Any chance you’re using Office 365? If so, you could see if the fancy new XLOOKUP function makes things any easier for you.

    3. Canadian Jessie*

      Look up the Index/Match function. I use it instead of Vlookup – works so much better. Here’s my cheat sheet on it:

      INDEX / MATCH
      =INDEX( Column where the result you’re looking for is – data you want to pull over from reference doc
      , MATCH ( Specific cell in current doc that shows the number you’re trying to match
      , column where the number you’re trying to match would be in reference doc
      , 0 to indicate exact match
      ))

      =INDEX(‘AtoA Report’!$K$2:$K$4967,MATCH(‘In progress working’!A2,’AtoA Report’!$A$2:$A$4967,0))

  58. Mimmy*

    Calling all non-faculty Higher Ed readers!

    My husband and I are probably going to be moving to the Southwest within the next year. I posted a bit about this in last week’s Open Thread but my questions were a bit too vague, so I’m re-asking with more specific questions:

    1. How is the Higher Ed job market in the Southwest (think New Mexico, western part of Texas, etc.). I’m mainly aiming for student disability services but am also interested in exploring ADA compliance / accessibility.

    2. In general, how has working from home been for Higher Ed staff? I cannot drive due to a vision impairment. There is a university in the city we’re hoping to move to and there seems to be somewhat decent public transportation where we’re moving to. However, if there are remote / work-from-home opportunities, I’d like to be able to expand my options a bit.

    Sorry for not naming specific locations – trying to maintain some privacy.

    1. Anne of Green Gables*

      I can’t help with the geographic region you are asking about, but my fairly large community college has been fantastic. Preferred situation right now for all staff is work from home. Kept hours for part time staff even when those staff had duties very specifically tied to face-to-face customer service. So far, no talks of reduction of forces. They worked to get laptops, chromebooks, and hotspots to faculty, staff, and students who needed them. (On loan, not permanent gift.) They are also for the moment very committed to not forcing anyone back on campus.

      1. Cassidy*

        Same exact situation for me, except I am at a large public university.

        Good luck, Mimmy!

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      Staff at a public university in the mid-Atlantic here – working from home has been so, so great for my department. We’ve all been just as productive, and in some cases more so, than when we were all in the office full-time, and my understanding is that my boss is going to advocate for telework to stay a possibility after the pandemic has passed.

      I think, though, that is depends a lot on what specific area of work in the university you’re in. Our admins, for example, are being rotated through the office in-person, each of them two days a week, and the same for our leadership team – it’s very important to university administration that every office has the lights on. And while my office is on the administrative side, my understanding is that in some academic departments there’s been less flexibility.

      I think this is going to be very particular to the university and the department that you’re looking at working in. Good luck, I wish I had better advice to give!

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I’m in higher ed in the Southwest. Higher ed in general is in a bad way right now– so many schools are on hiring freezes. It may be difficult for you but hopefully it won’t be!

      I WFH full time before COVID but my sense is that there are not very many remote opportunities like mine.

      What questions do you have? I’ve lived/worked here for five years.

      1. Mimmy*

        I figured things wouldn’t be great out there since the COVID cases are getting bad again, particularly in Arizona and Texas last I heard.

        We’re specifically looking at New Mexico since that’s where my husband grew up (how he ended up out in the East is a long story!). I don’t have any questions at the moment but will definitely keep you in mind :)

        1. anonymous for details*

          I worked at UNM briefly but it’s been a few years. Keep in mind that the New Mexico state budget generally–and its education budget in particular–are very dependent on oil and gas prices. Low gas prices might affect UNM’s hiring more than Covid does. If you’re looking at grant-funded positions, obviously that’s less of an issue.

    4. Pamela Adams*

      I am in California at the Cal State University system. As I said in another comment, we are virtual through the end of Fall term. Work from home has gone pretty well for advising- although doing new student orientation through zoom is exhausting. (and we have only done one so far!)

      I will link below to my campus Disability Resource Center’s COVID-19 page.

    5. Black Horse Dancing*

      I live in the Southwest. A few colleges/universities in my state, just realize we have three major, large cities and the rest is very rural. Driving four hours one way is not uncommon. The university I know of is pretty beloved.

  59. Emma*

    I just asked my boss for a promotion and he told me the earliest he could do was February or so because other people were in line for a promotion before me.

    I have been offered another equivalent position(same title) with a lower salary but better benefits at another company.

    Should I tell my boss I am considering another position? How should I play this? My current job “needs” me as I have important contacts and specific knowledge. But of course everyone can be replaced.

    I don’t feel particularly valued at current job, but see an opportunity to get a director title here.

    1. moron5*

      Of course you shouldn’t tell them.

      If you do, they will tell you to go (and your alternative isn’t good at all) or they will convince you to stay but if you stay your chances for a promotion will diminish.

      1. Four lights*

        Or they may give you a raise or something to stay, and then the next year not raise your salary since they already did.

      2. Emma*

        Thanks!
        The other position is sort of interesting and I’ll get paid parental leave (government position) but perhaps less opportunity for a higher title.

        The current position is at a non-profit that has been hit by covid. And my boss is a notoriously sly so even if he says I’d get promoted in Feb, I’m not sure it is true.

          1. Emma*

            Thanks! That is exactly the straight type of advice I needed.
            Don’t tell my boss, find better job.

        2. Annony*

          Using another offer as a bargaining chip doesn’t usually work out. Even if they give you what you want now, you are going to hit that wall again the next time you want a raise or a promotion. You look like you have one foot out the door so may be higher up if layoffs need to happen. You could also engender bad will with your coworkers who feel like you jumped over them to get the promotion that they feel they deserved.

          Do you want to work for a company where leveraging other offers is the only way to get a promotion? And do you really feel like that director position is in sight (assuming you are not talking about a promotion to director right now).

          If you don’t really want that other job, keep looking. There have to be better positions out there than these two.

          1. Emma*

            The director position is the promotion I am looking for. I’m not competing with anyone for the promotion. I feel promotions should be linked to your performance and the value you bring to the company and not be dependent on your colleagues’ potential promotions. But I also realise this is not always the case.

            But you are all right, this job offers a potential title, the other one offers better benefits, there must be a third option out there offering both those things.

            Thanks for reminding me of that! Will spend the weekend looking for new jobs!

    2. beanie gee*

      I don’t think telling them would impact them giving you a promotion sooner, unfortunately! If you want the other position, I’d make the decision to change jobs independent of the possible promotion – assume that it won’t happen before February and that it could be delayed even further.

      1. Emma*

        You are right. And while February could happen, it might even be a year from now, if at all.

        I’ll start looking for another job.

  60. Leave my nose alone*

    Is anyone else’s workplace doing Covid testing, whether mandatory or elective?

    My employer is offering optional testing and our supervisor is strongly urging us to get tested. But with reports of false positives and weeks-long waits for results from those who have been tested, myself and some of my coworkers are hesitant about being tested. Not to mention it’s a self administered test and many of us don’t feel comfortable sticking a swab that far up our own noses!

    1. Case of the Mondays*

      Some of the tests now are just nasal instead of nasal-pharyngeal. You only go in an inch or less.

    2. Doctor is In*

      No point to testing without exposure or symptoms. A negative test only means negative that day. Are they going to test you every day?

      2. Meg Ster*

        Do you get screened or tested for prostate cancer, flu, HIV, an enlarging aorta, colon cancer, STDs every day?

        This is stupid and needs to stop.

  61. Anne of Green Gables*

    Does anyone know if the FFCRA (Families First Coronavirus Response Act) paid family leave has the same restrictions as FMLA for parents that work for the same employer? With FMLA, the 12 weeks of leave are a cumulative 12 weeks if spouses work for the same employer. Is it the same with this new leave, or is each employee entitled to the expanded leave?

    1. Ali G*

      From what I’ve read, all the current company policies are the same as regular FMLA. So yes, it would be the same 12 weeks total.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m actually finding the opposite in a lot of articles published by law firms. Apparently this is something that isn’t explicitly addressed in the law, it would be covered by the federal rulemaking process and hasn’t been so far. But that could change going forward.

  62. Sunny*

    I truly don’t think I will ever find a job after losing my position due to COVID. I try to spend at least a half-hour every day looking, but it feels like an exercise in futility.
    How do you keep your spirits up while job-hunting?

    1. nep*

      I hear you.
      I get so excited when I see ads for jobs I really feel passionate about and which feel like a great fit. (And I go through weeks where I see none like that.) I have that brief window of joy and excitement when I first apply, because there’s at least possibility in the air. But it is really tough sticking with it. Not much to do but just keep at it.
      Motivation can definitely wane; I like to think of it as being as consistent and persistent as I would were I in one of these positions I’m going for.
      Wishing you all the best. Keep us posted.

    2. Cassidy*

      When I was unemployed for a year, I kept my spirits up knowing that someday, I’d spin the wheel and land on Lucky 7. And I did.

      As long as you keep looking, you’ll find something. That’s just the way that works. I know how hard it is – been there myself – but as long as you keep at it, you’ll find what you want.

  63. C.J.*

    I need to push back on something one of my staff is doing. Our workplace [non profit working on social justice issues] has directed that races or ethnicities are to be capitalized when we mention them in memos, emails and other literature, except for white and european. He thinks it has to be all or nothing but he won’t put it to bed even though the directive has come down and he’s been told it isn’t going to change. He isn’t white so this doesn’t even affect him. I hate having these kind of conversations. At least it is Friday.

    1. moron5*

      Sorry, English is not my native language, but is “european” even spelled correctly if not capitalized?

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      What?! Europe is a proper noun, so “European” should absolutely be capitalized, just like “Canadian” or “Asian” or “Australian”. To say nothing of the other issue…

    4. new kid*

      Yeah, I think I’m with your staff on this one tbh. That’s not only grammatically incorrect but is really inconsistent – anyone reading will see those inconsistencies as errors, not as some kind of statement or whatever you might otherwise be going for with this edict.

    6. Annony*

      I actually think he is right. European should be capitalized in general and it would look weird to have Black and Brown capitalized but white is lowercase. It affects him if he is writing an email and it looks like he made a mistake. I would leave him alone. Is it really so bad if he writes emails with proper grammar?

      1. Lore*

        While it may look weird right now to capitalize Black but not white, that’s an evolving style revision that for example the AP style guide is using as of this week. It’s a very much debated issue in copy editing at the moment and the consensus may shift but for right now, the balance is tipping toward the inconsistency though I am also hearing the counter argument that lowercasing white keeps the idea alive that Black is a proper-noun concept/identity but white is a generic neutral. (There’s an article in today’s New York Times about it; the Times is currently not capitalizing either but the discussion is ongoing.)

        European is another story.

        1. Reba*

          Yes, that’s exactly the point — Black and White are both cultural categories. We shouldn’t take whiteness as a default or “unmarked” state.

          Agree that this seems to be a pretty new shift in thinking, however.

          1. Lore*

            The argument for not capping white is that capping them both is basically the same as lowercasing both, which has historically done nothing to promote understanding of whiteness as a racial category either, and also has some potential overtones of white supremacy. And then there’s the conjunction with Asian/Latino/ other groups that have both geographical and racial connotations and so are always capitalized. It’s a tough issue and one that I’m sure will continue to evolve.

            1. Reba*

              Yeah, the white supremacist usage is a stumbling block worth considering.

              I don’t see the both/neither equivalence, though.

        2. Emi.*

          The Chicago Sun-Times has apparently decided to capitalize Black but not white, because “white” is “a wider descriptor of people of numerous origins,” whereas all Black people come from, what, the country of Africa? It’s incoherent and, imho, racist.

          1. ThatGirl*

            Black is a fairly cohesive (as these things go) racial identity in the US. Being white is not. It’s something many Black people in the US have requested and do themselves. It’s not racist.

            1. Reba*

              The argument is precisely that white IS a coherent, racialized category. People who want to capitalize the W in White are doing so because they feel it is important to provoke recognition of how whiteness works in our society — and part of that is the way that White people are often able to “sit out” of conversations about race. The idea that White people are not part of the operation of race or don’t “have” race is what they are trying to change.

              1. ThatGirl*

                Eh.., I guess I can see the argument but I don’t buy it. Whiteness is a mutable, changeable thing and has never been terribly cohesive. I am probably not the right person to fully explain it though, and this is also pretty far off topic at this point :)

          2. pancakes*

            The idea that capitalizing the w is a good way to get white people thinking about whiteness too often being a default in white-majority cultures is not something I’ve encountered before, and I don’t think it makes much sense. The only people I’ve ever seen capitalize the word are white nationalists.

            1. Cassidy*

              Someone could capitalize “white” thinking it’s grammatically correct, without being a nationalist.

              Come on.

              1. pancakes*

                I wasn’t saying or suggesting that that’s inconceivable — I said I haven’t seen it happening, and I haven’t seen anyone else suggest it should be happening.

                1. Avasarala*

                  There’s an Atlantic article that presents arguments suggests capitalizing both, to separate the color from the identity. That capitalization does not necessarily signify dignity, or maybe we can reclaim it from white nationalists.

        3. Observer*

          White is one thing. European is another, though. Regardless of how you feel about the inconsistency, it’s quite easy to understand it. And it’s also the kind of thing an employee should go along with, because they can’t claim that it looks like a mistake.

          But European just looks sloppy. Europe is a place name. Also, it’s a lot more complex that white vs other races / ethnicities.

    7. Reba*

      The directive is wrong, though. I mean sure, pick battles but it may be worthwhile getting on your staff member’s side and pushing back a little — or at least signaling to him that you hear what he’s saying!

      and “he isn’t white so this doesn’t even affect him…” please rethink this.

    8. Observer*

      Your leadership is wrong. Yes, Black, Indigenous, etc. should be capitalized. But so should European – as well as every other place related name. Not capitalizing is just poor grammar.

      But if your employee is refusing to capitalize stuff that needs to be capitalized, treat it like any other performance issue. Because it is.

    9. tears of the mushroom*

      You could also just Caucasian in place of white or European. That is how it is often used in medicine.

    10. Nacho*

      Going to have to agree with your staff on this one. To be sure, this is a really stupid hill to die on, but I still see his point pretty clearly.

  64. WorthMoreThanThis*

    I’m completely at wits end at my toxic work environment, and have THE strongest, painful gut feeling to just quit today!

    After almost 3 years of being patient and putting in my all for this place, I’m still being paid less than everyone else while doing the work of 3 people, and stuck with the same title/position after being promised a change and perks time and time again. I have to constantly chase down people to even get a response from them, then get ghosted for important requests until sh*t hits the fan. There are obvious cliques in the office, and clear that nepotism and a “bro” culture rules the place. Management also continues to cut costs for everything, including not paying our warehouse and factories when I ask about it, telling me that “they’ll get over it”. Morale is at an all time low, turnover has been high, and the stress levels are out of control.

    I know I shouldn’t let me emotions get in the way, but really don’t see any positives to staying here (other than getting a paycheck). Over the past few months, I haven’t been focusing 100% on job hunting, but I’ve gotten a few leads and there, and have some interview invitations in the next few days. I’m afraid that all the negative energy here is going to impact my professional development, and ruin some relationships that I have with our partners.

    If anyone was in this situation before, what was your experience (and advice) on quitting a toxic job without another one lined up? Did it take long for you to find another opportunity that worked out for the better?

    1. Much happier now*

      If you can swing it financially, I say do it. If possible, look for opportunities to contract some work with them to gain income. Quitting will free your soul and give you the time and clarity needed to approach job hunting full time. Remember that each interview gives you the chance to make sure the opportunity good for you, not just that you’re good for it.

      Here’s where this advice is coming from. I was in a toxic environment when I quit without having another job lined up. Best thing I’ve ever done. Others who reported to my owner had done the same before me, and when I first heard about it, I remember wondering how anyone could ever do that. Well, fast forward almost 2 toxic years and I knew. I hated the toll the dysfunction took on my health and my family’s wellbeing. I wanted my kids to understand that health and family was priority. We had some savings and my partner’s income. So while being unemployed was financially stressful, it was nothing compared to the anxiety and abuse from staying put. Luckily, I had skills that were needed, so I arranged to help close out a project remotely and gain income. Then, I treated job searching and development as my full-time job. There were a few times I wondered what I had done, especially when paying a huge copay for my son’s medicine. But, within 3 months, I had a job with a description that looks like it was written just for me. Five years and a promotion later, my company continues to impress me with their support and care for employees and customers, and commitment to doing what’s right. During my search, I focused on finding a respectful employer by specifically asking questions that would give me confidence it was the right fit. I made sure I answered questions that straight up set the expectation of respect.

      Best of luck as you figure out what’s best for you.

    2. JanetM*

      I have quit a job with nothing lined up. However, I was an admin assistant / word processor, and already known to the temp agencies in town as a good worker. I took off a couple of weeks for vacation, then had a few short-term temp positions, followed by a long-term assignment that led to my current permanent (26 years so far, knock on wood) job.

    3. Diatryma*

      I quit with nothing lined up back in March, right before the pandemic shutdowns hit.

      I regret *nothing* about this, and I wouldn’t even if I hadn’t gotten a pair of good jobs (one stopgap, one permanent) from the best of my coworkers’ networks.

      What helped me: my spouse told me that after our taxes were filed, he considered my entire paycheck to be mine vs ours (ie, I wasn’t working to support the household but to give myself fun money and shouldn’t stress about that); this remains one of the most loving things I can think of in the last year.
      I got the kind of feedback that I can definitely mention in an interview… as a way to mitigate my previous performance reviews. Yes, they said I was flakey and incompetent, but they also said I was filling out maintenance sheets with the wrong kind of pen because we had to use blue, red, or black ink, and the black Pilot G2 didn’t count. That kind of feedback is a gift.
      I acknowledged that it was not a good fit, and that’s okay. It doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with me. I can be wrong for that environment, and that environment can be wrong for me, because I am a sea lion and it was a sulfur vent. That let me feel less like I was quitting *at* them or having any kind of adversarial relationship– I didn’t have to feel bad that they were now my sworn enemies.
      I’ve been poor before and knew that if I needed to, absent coronavirus, I could return to my previous job, which paid little but also didn’t kill my soul.

      Good luck.

  65. Jonah*

    Does anyone have any recommendations or resources for improving sales skills? I started my own business in December, and I get a healthy amount of inquiries from potential clients. But I think it’s clear that my initial responses to the inquiries are falling short. I’m pretty good at selling once I have them on the phone, but getting them to agree to a 15 minute call has been tremendously difficult. My clients are usually seeing their own clients throughout the day, so calling them outright in response to an inquiry rarely results in them actually answering the phone—I’ve been using email to respond to their inquiries.

  66. On that Academic Job Market Grind is Employed!*

    I am exactly one week out from my dissertation defense and I am STRESSED. I am also very sad that it will be all on Zoom and not the traditional celebratory occasion I’ve been looking forward to for years. and advice on how to mark this big big professional accomplishment in a way that feels real while being safe??

    1. moron5*

      Focus on sending out plenty of applications unless you’ve already found your next position.

      Defense is nothing. Finding a job afterwards is a drama.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          Congratulations!!!

          As for celebrating, I would get something that you don’t normally and INDULGE. Cheesecake, nice wine, fancy bath bomb, new outfit, cigar, candy. A few times, my friends and I have gotten the same fun thing (in our case, it was the same brand of wine) and shared them via Zoom. It creates a nice bond of togetherness, even though we can’t be together.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That is fantastic!!! Congratulations!!!

          What everyone else said– just indulge. Even if that means taking a few hours off and napping. You might need it. :)

    2. Emma*

      Have a zoomparty with your friends and drink champagne together online instead.
      And make sure you have a party once this Corona thing is over. You deserve it, Dr!

      Also, remember that you are the expert on your topic. Enjoy the dissertation, it will be fun!

      1. On that Academic Job Market Grind is Employed!*

        thank you!!! I’m sad because I have to move in august (but very happy to be employed) so it looks like I may not ever get to have a party with my grad school community irl. but I should figure out some way to party when this is over.

        1. Mrs. Krabapel*

          I second that! I just attended a zoom party for a friend who defended at the end of May. He was able to celebrate with friends and family from near and far. His wife set the whole thing up— even told us what kind of cake they were cutting so we could have similar if we wanted. He really appreciated it— especially because so many of us wouldn’t have celebrated with him in non-pandemic times due to distance.

    3. Anne Shirley*

      yea! HERE IS YOUR PARADE!
      It is disappointing after years of hard work and stress. Congratulations. I was promoted to Full during Covid. I even felt announcing on Facebook would have been “not the right thing.”
      suggestions- What haven’t you been able to do for years that everyone else has- Have you seen Game of Thrones or Sherlock.
      Read something fun that has nothing to do with your dis.
      Write a heart-felt note to each of your cohort.
      Write a not to your advisor.
      Extend a hand to someone coming up behind you.
      AND
      revel that you have a job! you will need some new clothes!

      1. On that Academic Job Market Grind*

        These are really wonderful suggestions thank you so much. And congratulations!!!

  67. Managing the New Llama Management*

    Good morning! My small, struggling company recently hired a much needed Director of Llama Management. I was previously reporting to the Director of Llama Operations after a recent promotion to Llama Management from grooming. That hierarchical structure was clearly deficient, and we clearly needed someone in the Director of Llama Management position both to take some of the responsibilities from the Director of Llama Operations and to create some institutional separation between llama management and llama operations. The new director comes highly recommended with a lot of professional experience, primarily at institutions much, much larger from ours (not atypical for the senior leadership at this company, as there is a big corporation in our locality that most people pass through at some point).

    Problem is… I am not enjoying working for this guy. His presence and his vision promise huge opportunities for my professional growth, but he has many, many habits that in the two weeks I have been working with/for him have made me miserable. Although many of his actions seem minor, most of them either add up to be a mid-major problem (wandering by, in person or virtually, to talk at length about information he has already shared or isn’t relevant, taking up almost 2 hours of my day yesterday; talking about people negatively to me behind their backs; frequently talking over people in meetings [not just in a the-zoom-audio-is-lagging way]) or point to a major-major problem (sharing information to which I should not be privy either due to lack of discretion or as a calculated show of good faith; claiming or repeating information I have given him as his own; making comments of the “saying the quiet part out loud” variety in regards to our company’s lack of diversity [and not in the direction of correcting it]). I will add that part of my self-doubt in the subsequent question is that I am a very junior female llama manager in a very male-dominated llama-based industry, so most of these observations are accompanied by a tinge of, “is he a sexist jerk or just a jerk?” while also trying to give him grace for being new to a struggling company in the time of COVID.

    My real question: do I need to suck it up, or should I be looking for another job? My gut tells me that this person is bad news, despite the potential growth he represents for my career. On paper, these offenses are “not that bad,” even thought they do make me fundamentally uncomfortable. I also don’t know how to avoid joining a company that has similar issues with stability and diversity, especially given that this particular industry/skill-set is renowned for issues with diversity in hiring.

    Additional details: we do not have a dedicated HR department or role; the president of the company is desperate for my new manager’s assistance in righting the ship; the president of the company has expressed disinterest or hostility to addressing the lack of diversity in this workplace; the company was struggling pre-COVID but is not experiencing substantial business impacts from the pandemic (yet).

    1. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

      I used to work for someone very similar some years back, although without the sexism angle* (both women in a slightly female-dominated industry). I was like you in that I wanted to assume that I was dealing with someone whose social graces weren’t on point, but the reality was so much worse than that. In isolation, you’re right, none of these things are total dealbreakers, but together they intersect in pretty serious ways.

      One of the things I figured out really quickly is that a manager who shares too much with you – especially things about your llama management peers – is someone who’s absolutely not going to handle anything involving you with discretion, even if they deem you their favourite at some point. I really like your phrase “calculated show of good faith” because it underscores how not good of an idea it is for a manager to do stuff like this to build rapport.

      No one’s perfect, but you’re dealing with someone who’s shown you some messed-up cards very quickly, and to make matters worse, they’re new to the company so they have no political capital to compensate for their BS. This sounds like someone who could burn bridges within your organization very quickly, and reporting to someone like that will eventually create way more stress for you.

      tl;dr – big vision + poor soft skills = headaches for direct reports, just say no

      *Actually, wait, no, I lied, there was all sorts of whack stuff aimed at the men on our team, in a watch-me-get-away-with-creeping-on-direct-reports-young-enough-to-be-my-son vein as well as in other ways. But those are stories for another time!

  68. EJane*

    Hooboy I hate that I have to ask this.

    My sister’s husband had a stroke this spring, and his behavior has completely changed as a result. Long story short, they went from living together and her dealing with a status quo order to get custody of their young kids to getting a restraining order in less than 72 hours. She is physically unharmed, as are the kids, but… well, anyone know
    She left the city for a week while their house was rewired with a security system and the locks changed, and our parents are in town, so she’ll never be alone at home with the kids at least until the custody hearing.

    The problem is that she works with her ex. They’re both nurses. Her job has done a terrible job of facilitating the restraining order; he was able to come and sit in her area for 40 minutes while ‘waiting for a class’ last week, and the hospital did jack; she specifically mentioned that HR and Security aren’t helping.
    Her lawyer has told her this is bullshit.

    They’re now proposing cutting her hours along with his to make it so their shifts don’t overlap, which would be a demotion and a pay cut. She’s obviously saying something to HR about this, but I have a couple of requests from the AAM community:
    1. Are there any state or federal laws anyone is aware of that pertains to this? I know we generally don’t cite location, but it’s relevant, so: she’s in Oregon.
    2. Does anyone have advice I can offer her, either procedural or just “here’s how to not lose your fcking mind”?

    1. EJane*

      That cut-off sentence at the end of the first paragraph was meant to read “anyone who’s been through something similar knows that’s the tip of the iceberg”.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I’m in OR as well, so I pulled up my company’s policies on this to see if I could find anything on point for you because we typically cite applicable state/local laws in them. Sadly, the section on our practices for victims of domestic violence don’t have references like that, which indicates that our policies here are driven out of a desire to help staff rather than a legal requirement.

      1. LQ*

        I don’t know where exactly in OR, but some cities have specific laws about this. My (not OR) city does have something that would prevent exactly this thing from happening.

    4. TCO*

      Looks like Oregon has protections for survivors of domestic violence. Workplaces can’t retaliate against victims, including reducing their hours (it sounds like in this case there’s a clear connection between her reduced schedule and her “victim” status). Employers also have to make reasonable accommodations for survivors to help keep them safe. It sounds like at least some of what your sister has requested is probably reasonable (it could be harder from an outsiders’ perspective to know what would be considered “reasonable” in changing schedules–there could be so many factors there).

      I found this all on Oregon Law Help. Your sister could also benefit from consulting a victims’ rights advocate if her hospital isn’t providing accommodations. Her attorney could also be helpful–maybe they could send a strong letter to the hospital.

      I’m sorry your sister and her family are going through this.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        An area DV/FV shelter may have advocates on hand that could help with this sort of information — heck even the police station and DA’s office in my state has victim advocates. Sometimes the waiting period for that is unfortunately a bit lengthy, but they may be able to point you in the right direction. Also a consultation with your area bar association can yield some answers as well.

        1. EJane*

          Thank you for your help, TCO and Pencil! also, Pencil, I read “area bar association” as “area baseball bat” for a hot second and thought “well that’s one way to deal with it.”

    5. pancakes*

      How is it that her lawyer isn’t tackling this? “This is bullshit” is not an appropriate response on their part. Are they not returning her calls? Was there no discussion between them as to what happens if the restraining order is violated? If her lawyer has fallen ill or had a family emergency or something she should call the Oregon State Bar. There’s a “Problem Solvers” number on their website, and other numbers for referrals, etc.

      1. blackcat*

        Yeah, it could also be the lawyer is a family law person and this is outside their wheelhouse. But it sounds like this is illegal in OR, and she needs an employment lawyer to send a sternly worded letter.

        Then she needs to start looking for a job, because her job has chosen him over her. That will likely come back in other ways, later (ex her being frozen out of promotions, coworkers defending him, etc). She should tell any coworkers who she is friendly with about the full story, and try to enlist their help in never being alone in a room (if at all possible).

        1. pancakes*

          She doesn’t necessarily need two different lawyers for this. Violating a restraining order is not an unusual or perplexing dilemma, even if a particular employer isn’t helpful in enforcing it.

          I don’t think framing this as “her job has chosen him” is a helpful or practical way to frame this. She has rights in this situation even if her employer misunderstands their obligations at the moment, and even if they’d prefer she didn’t. Second, her immediate priority needs to be her safety. Looking for a new job before that’s been effectively addressed or while that’s being addressed is an awful lot to put on this woman’s plate.

          1. EJane*

            blackcat is right in that her lawyer is family law. I should have also clarified that the restraining order specifically lists where they work as an exception, because if he has a job, he has to pay child support. I’ll post more details in an unthreaded comment. Thank you for your help, pancakes and blackcat!

    6. Can Can Cannot*

      Why can’t your sister call the police whenever she sees him violating the restraining order? This isn’t (just) an employer policy issue, it’s a criminal violation of the order. She shouldn’t be calling her boss, she should be calling the police. Every. Single. Time.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      This is absolutely shitty of her (presumably) brain damaged ex and her job/management.

      #1 – Don’t rely on hospital security to protect her. He violated the restraining order. Call the cops, let him be arrested and dealt with by the police. She needs to do the same thing she’d do if she encountered him in public.

      #2 – Talk to HR and make the point that they are proposing to demote and cut the victim’s hours instead of the attacker. The restraining order exists. That’s the law on her side saying that he’s a danger to her. This isn’t she said/he said.

    8. EJane*

      Thank you, everyone. I didn’t expect it to be helpful for my own state of mind to read all your advice, but it was, so… thank you. A lot.
      Some explanation and some updates:
      – The restraining order specifically mentions the hospital where they work as an exception re: the distance rule, but he’s still not allowed to contact her, directly or indirectly.
      – We (family) talked about this more today, and made some contingency plans. Her personal belongings are totally inaccessible to him, and there’s a room she can go into and close and lock the door if she feels physically unsafe, a room that he can’t get into. She determined on her own (i’m so goddamn proud of her, she’s a boss) that if he contacts her again, she calls 911, end of story.
      – I suggested the DV/FV resources, and I’ll look up the laws about victim retaliation and share them with her.

      And yes, her ex does have brain damage. Part of the reason this is so scary is because he is strong (an athlete), has a totally flat affect and is completely unpredictable. I’m in grad school for counseling, and his behavior is so beyond any typical escalation patterns that what I know is effectively useless.

      I really, really appreciate all your input.

      1. pancakes*

        That’s good to hear! She doesn’t necessarily need to wait for him to violate the restraining order again—he can already be arrested for having violated it. The Oregon State Bar has a q&a on this titled “Restraining Orders and Domestic Violence” that looks helpful, and there’s a pamphlet put out by Legal Aid Services of Oregon available online, titled “What to do if your Restraining Order is Violated.”

      2. valentine*

        The restraining order specifically mentions the hospital where they work as an exception
        This is also BS. Even the most narrow wording possible, like “unless in an emergency required for patient care” won’t work because he’s obviously going to exploit it. It’s the same as telling him not “You’re not allowed within x feet,” but “You are allowed near her at work,” which is where she needs to feel doubly safe, so she can do her job, which is why even allowing him near in an emergency would guarantee the greatest degree of danger for her and any patient involved.

        Do they have some bizarre specialty that can only be worked during daytime hours or overlapping shifts? I just see no reason, the order being against him, the hospital wouldn’t just have him start two hours after she ends and bar him except while working, so he doesn’t arrive early and try to cross paths with her. Also, the hospital can impose more strict rules than the court, and I don’t know why they wouldn’t. No patient is harmed by him not sitting near your sister while waiting for a class and there’s no reason he needed to wait in that location, much less for that long.

        Regardless of how this plays out, she may need a new employer. I mean, is the custody order supposed to include separating him from her at work? He can obviously just start claiming he’s asking about the kids. In the meantime, what about hiring her own bodyguards? (Though he might escalate in response.)

  69. A Scientist Salarian*

    I just wanted to say thanks to Alison for the blog as a whole, but more recently, all the COVID information. Because of all that, I felt confident enough to raise an issue with my company’s C-suite regarding an employee who has recently returned from a vacation to a COVID hot spot. Multiple states have issued 14-day quarantine recommendations for anyone returning from this place, and using Alison’s information helped me tremendously in phrasing my concerns.

  70. Anonymous Educator*

    When I started working at my current workplace, I asked if I could work from home one day a week, and I was told that wasn’t possible. Now that we’re in Covid-19 mode, we’re almost entirely work-from-home every day of the week. We do plan to phase back into the office very gradually, but I’m getting the impression we’ll have a lot more flexibility in terms of hybridizing work-from-home and work-in-office.

    Once Covid-19 is over (vaccine, herd immunity, whatever), I’m hoping to do two days in the office and three days work from home.

    Anyone else feel their workplace would be more receptive to a hybrid model in the future? If so, what would be your ideal hybrid? Or would you just prefer entirely in-office or entirely WFH if Covid-19 weren’t a factor?

    1. Government worker, woot woot*

      Oh, man, I hope so. My workplace is extremely butts-in-seats, and I think we made the switch to almost entirely WFH pretty successfully. We will probably never be able to do permanent WFH (“what would the taxpayers think?”) but I hope we’ve shown that we can allow it on an ad hoc basis.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Our leadership has already said several times that they will be more open to more flexible schedules (hours worked, WFH) based on the needs of the employees. Everyone who can telecommute is expected to for the foreseeable future, although there is a tentative plan to phase people back in over the summer/fall. We’re a global company, so offices in different countries are managing things differently, but the US offices are being very conservative so far. I myself expect to primarily WFH through at least the end of the year, whether that’s the expected deal for everyone or something I have to request.

      My ideal would be 3-4 days at home, 1-2 days in the office. Cuts down commute time while not interfering with my productivity, and makes me look forward to office days. Previously I had been doing the reverse schedule so split schedule isn’t too extreme a concept.

  71. Aggretsuko*

    We are all in a rage here. Our temp has been training to take over my retiring coworker’s job-4-6 hours a day of training since April. My boss wanted to hire her directly, but we had to go through The Process. And then Grandboss decided she hates the temp, “she doesn’t really know the job anyway,” and claimed it would be a “conflict of interest” to train someone for a job and then actually hire them for it. I would like to note that this is literally how Grandboss was hired–on contract, then a job description was written specifically for her and she was hired. Total hypocrite.

    It was obnoxiously foreshadowed in the morning meeting, and Grandboss insisted on breaking the news over Zoom and then lectured the temp on how she interviews (i.e. she was nervous) until the temp started crying. Also, her contract is being extended for a few months…so she can train the actual person who gets the job.

    This is all just so shitty I can’t even express how shitty. I am so @T$^$%^ furious at Grandboss.

    I do not want to talk to my boss one on one about this. I bet she’s mad too but can’t say anything about it.

    1. Ronda*

      you should probably talk to your boss with concern about why your grandboss is so unprofessional / abusive (rather than anger)
      you probably need to start looking for new position with an abusive grandboss like this.

      For the temp (I am assuming you think she was good / should be hired), tell her you are sorry about what happened with grandboss and you dont think it was right. offer to be a reference. tell her she should under no circumstances feel an obligation to train her replacement and she is perfectly right to leave immediately after such abuse. but if she needs to stay on for the money, you understand that too.

  72. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’ve been at my job about a year. I don’t like it and am not good at it. However I have started to think of becoming a LPC ( licensed professional counselor) I can get supervision through work but I’d have to sign a two year contract. Is there a place where I can go to see the pros and cons of getting my LPC even if I’m subpar at my job?

    1. Gumby*

      If you just want to find out more about the pros and cons of the job without committing to anything: informational interviews!!! Lots of them. It’s not a guarantee, but you will have a better idea.

      I’m honestly not sure what being subpar has to do with anything, but it’s probably a nuance I’m missing.

  73. New job, who dis?*

    I am fairly new to the working world, and I started my first professional job about 6 months ago. Everything has been great, but I recently found out I’m a pregnant (yay!). This is my first one, and I am struggling with morning sickness. I have yet to get sick at work, but I have no idea how to respond if I do. Only a few people at my office know currently, and I’m not ready to share with everyone. Any advice for what to do if that happens? For context, I do have my own office, but the walls are very thin.

    1. RagingADHD*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with that!

      AFAIK, there’s no magic to it. You make it to the bathroom if you can, and use the trashcan if you can’t. People will hear what they hear and think what they think, but you don’t have to talk about it until you’re ready to.

      Maybe a white noise machine might make you more comfortable with the thin walls?

    2. Natalie*

      No guarantees, but you might experiment with snacks/beverages/hard candy etc and see if anything reliably helps you settle your stomach. It can also help to observe any patterns – are you always sick around the same time, do you feel better if you snack continuously or if you don’t eat, things like that.

      Please know that, if it gets bad and is interfering with your functioning, there are a number of pregnancy safe medication options. You aren’t required to just tough it out. For that matter, same goes for other pregnancy symptoms you might experience as time goes on. Suffering is not inevitable.

    3. Diatryma*

      “It’s all right, it’s a medium-term medical condition. I’m mostly able to handle it outside work. I’ll let you know if anything changes and affects the job!”

  74. strikingcoconut*

    I made a staff member cry this week and I don’t know how to handle it.

    She’d had performance issues since before COVID that I’d tried to address. I’m an interim manager, and spent the first few months learning the job myself with little assistance, so it’s only now that I can I see that she hasn’t been where she needs to be for a while. She started a week before I did and was hired by my predecessor, who had concerns about her ability to do the job.

    At the same time, my predecessor hired her for a job that didn’t really exist at the time, and many of her tasks have moved away. The ones that remain are out of her ability. Our department has been asked to start “identifying efficiencies” for cuts and I manage the largest department so rightly she believes that she’s the most likely to be cut. Which is probably true.

    So not only do I have to review her position, which itself might trigger a layoff, but I also had to put her on a performance plan, which was advised by my boss and HR. The conversation went pretty badly and she cried and took the next day off.

    I want to be sensitive but this is unfortunately where we are? Is there any way I can come back from this? Should I schedule a check-in?

    1. Red Arrow*

      You don’t have anything to come back from. You didn’t do anything wrong! Yes, she cried. That’s not your fault for delivering feedback! Sometimes people cry, sometimes they take feedback badly, sometimes they can’t handle it and take time off to process. All of that is hers to handle, not yours.

      Treat her kindly (normal kindly, not extra sensitive kindly because she cried) but professionally, be honest and realistic about the impact of the cuts and the PIP, and don’t try to manage her emotions.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes! There’s nothing to come back from here! I’d plan on ultimately transitioning her out because it sounds like she should never have been hired in the first place.

    2. Anne Shirley*

      The handwriting is on the wall and your report knows it. The only thing you can do now is document behavior and deliverables. The good news is that if there is a layoff, they can get unemployment. The bad news is that you get to feel bad.
      Crying. Ignore it. Or ask if they would like a break and you can reconvene. Days off- these are sick days. Count them as such. Don’t take this personally.

    3. PollyQ*

      Unless you think she was too upset to understand the terms of the PIP, I wouldn’t do any special follow-up. It seems pretty clear that she’s going to be losing this job, either to a layoff or a firing, so just treat her with respect and fairness.

  75. Lowly Staff Accountant*

    Happy Friday all! (Is it Friday? LOL) I need some resume advice if I may…..I’m 50 now and haven’t needed to update my resume in 14 years or so! (Do we still use resumes? Do I still need to wear a suit to an interview?)
    I recently lost the job I’ve had for 13 years (Y)….so the job I had before this one (X) I also had for 13 years…..when I got laid off from X I had a lengthy severance so I have almost a 2 year gap between X and Y…..question is do I include both X & Y on my resume and just explain the gap when asked? Or just include job Y which IMO will make my resume look sparse.

    Also my job at Y was pretty redundant…..I completed the same tasks over & over on a monthly, weekly, yearly and quarterly basis as was basically the lowest employee there, so I’m not sure how to word my tasks as the accomplishments Alison recommends….advice?

    1. beanie gee*

      I’d include both X & Y on the resume and just explain the gap if asked. Won’t be a big deal since you were at those two companies for so long.

      There’s a post that gets at your second question – I’ll see if I can find it!

          1. Lowly Staff Accountant*

            @irene adler thanks for the links! I’ve been following the advice of the 1st one…..I’ll definitely read over the 2nd one….

    2. Ronda*

      when i was near 50 and laid off…. some advice I received was to detail the last 10 years. ( I think the thought is they care more about recent experience and it helps with age discrimination issues- but i seriously doubt that) I had about 4 different, but similar positions at the company I was at for 17 years, so I broke that into different headings with the new position names and detailed that.
      I did put my previous employers (2 of them) in a previous professional experience section with just company name and the few different title I had at those companies. I didnt include my waitress jobs from before college graduation.
      This kept my resume at 2 pages, which was also important. Don’t think resumes should be too long.

      A gap of 2 years 13 years ago should not be a big deal, so if you want to include details of things done at previous job, I think it is good to include that, but if you dont think it is much different from stuff at current job you can leave it off or just list company and titles.

      I worked in accounting systems, so I also had a table listing systems skills (System testing, project management etc) and a table listing software packages I had worked with (peoplesoft gl, hyperion planning etc)

      for staff accountant, you can say how much transactions processed in $ and count. How many reconciliations accomplished in $ and count to quantify. Also any process improvements done, even if you participated in them as a larger project… reduced closing cycle from x days to y days by whatever my part was.

      1. Ronda*

        and the 2 tables where the 1st thing on my resume. I think in systems work, what specific systems stuff you know about is the thing they are most interested in.

        I could see that with accounting wanting you to have experience in specific areas and with specific software and that may be a helpful summary for people reviewing your resume.

        1. Lowly Staff Accountant*

          Thanks for the reply! Company X was an auto finance company (think leasing and financing vehicles on the lending side) and Company Y is a pretty old-fashioned non-profit where using systems that are ancient is the norm….for example we only stopped using hand written timecards about 8 years ago! I was still doing the bank reconciliations by hand and most of our work was done via Excel. Company Y is also known for once you’re in a job, that’s where you stay and there really isn’t any moving around. They are also VERY resistant to change.

          SO, I was in the same job all 13 years, didn’t advance…and pretty much did the same tasks the whole time. And while my title was “accountant” I never dealt with budgets, balance sheets, income statements, cash flow, etc…..the Controller & Asst. Controller kept all that to themselves. So I’m really at a loss here resume-wise. I had wanted to retire from this job and now have to try and start over again.

  76. Perplexed*

    I work as a junior person in a small department of a large company and I’m wondering (out of curiosity) if what I’m about to describe is normal in the corporate world.

    I’ve noticed that none of our files are organized at all and we don’t have any sort of systems in place. We have a shared drive with a million top-level folders (actually about 50) where things get roughly sorted. We also have about seven lists of old archived paper records that are stored at a warehouse, and whatever anyone decides to store on their computer. If anything is regularly tracked, it’s done so in an Excel file. No one knows how to organize their emails. Legal came to us the other day and said “We’ve been subpoenaed for [specific records].” And the person who was in charge of them had some on her desk, some on her computer, some scanned in, and some were in physical binders that I guess no one had bothered to ever scan before. People often say “Well, I looked in X location so I guess we don’t have anything related to that anymore.”

    If you step back and look at the big picture, we’re just not organized at all and people handle things matter-by-matter. It’s kind of baffling to me, but I’m wondering if this sort of dysfunction is typical.

    1. blepkitty*

      It sounds like your company could use a records manager, assuming they’re large enough to have a dedicated person for that. There are laws about how long some documents need to be kept, and a records management system would be helpful in the case of a subpoena. If you’re missing a document and don’t have a specific policy explaining why you didn’t keep the document, it doesn’t look good for the company.

      1. Perplexed*

        We actually do have a record management group but the head of it is about to retire…I’m hoping that his replacement will shake things up and start asking questions.

        An issue that you’ve identified is that we have a robust record retention policy, but no record destruction policy. As in, no one’s systematically getting rid of records from 30 years ago that aren’t subject to litigation or other holds. So when we’re subpoenaed for certain records we might have them even if they’re outside the scope of the record management policy.

        1. blepkitty*

          Oh, yikes.

          I wish I could say that’s unusual, but I rather doubt it. As to the messy shared drive, I’m a librarian, and every library I’ve worked in has a disastrous shared drive. We have literal masters degrees in organizing information, so I don’t have much hope for the rest of the world if we can’t even get it straight.

          1. Not a cat*

            I worked for a records management software company. You should have seen how bad our records were! No formal policy or retention schedule at all. Then we got sued and document production was a nightmare.

    3. Ronda*

      i think it is pretty typical.

      they write a record retention policy…. then not much is done to make sure it is followed…..

      so you get whatever people feel like or think they should be doing and usually as not a core of their responsibility…. then someone leaves and nobody knows where that stuff is.

  77. Career Change*

    I am about to undertake a complete career change. I was solid middle management before and had longevity in a very niche field. I am starting over completely at the bottom, with a new degree as well, and I will be firmly be the bottom of the ranks. My new career is not even remotely career adjacent – think from highly technical to art based.

    I am a bit stumped on what to do with Linkedin, as I undertake my new career. If people search for me in my new field, if my old details are still present, I will look like a completely different person. My inclination is to delete everything and start over but I don’t want anyone to think I am hiding anything. I am sure I am just overthinking all of this.

    Thoughts?

    1. Picard*

      Yeah, youre overthinking this. I went from a business based career to an art based one and back to business. What I did was simply highlight those skills that were most relevant to the latest position, in the older positions.

    2. Orrostar*

      People change careers and directions all the time. No one else is likely to think twice about it, if they even notice. I wouldn’t worry.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Why not just leave the old positions/dates but delete any descriptions? I’d replace your personal description with what’s appropriate for your new career. You could also delete anything your following that’s not something you care about now, along with old certifications (but not degrees) and memberships that don’t matter now.

      I like to see what people did before, and sometimes it’s an unexpected way to connect to them on a personal level. Plus, some people from your old professional life might want to find you for art things.

      It’s weird if someone’s whole profile does look like they’re living a previous life, but it’s also weird if a 40-year old person has no history before 2020.

    4. Career Change*

      Ok I was overthinking it! :-D

      I had previously used Linkedin as basically a slimmed down version of my resume so that’s why I was a bit confused on what to do. I thought if people searched me and they saw details about tax law and whatnot it would be weird. The simple answer is to just remove that level of detail.

      Thanks everyone! I assumed there was a simple answer and there was! Yay!

  78. EUnewb*

    Hello all,
    I’m a long time lurker but would be grateful for the esteemed community’s opinion.

    I work in a small company based in the EU. I am a member of management. Our country has a mandatory protocol for returning to the office/workplace. From the protocol, companies must put together a COVID response team. This team must be trained. So far so good?

    My CEO approached me before the protocol was released and asked me to put processes in place before returning to work. My role for the company is software, no HR/Health and Safety experience.But I also hold a health qualification outside of my role. It made sense. However, I am now to be all the members of this response team, in addition to my current role.

    The protocol made clear the minimum equipment a company needs in place. I advised our CEO on what we required and what we need to do (temperature checks, contact tracing etc). I have not received the mandated training specified in the protocol, nor will my company pay for it. The CEO confirmed necessary equipment was in place etc.

    Part of the protocol means that employees can approach me if they have concerns or questions. One, who has been working in the office due to internet issues, did so. None of the necessary equipment was in place! I contact CEO for clarification, who assured it was there. Over and over until I informed him that an employee had contacted me to advise me that nothing was in the office. The reaction from CEO was_not_good_ Lashed out comes to mind. It was vicious. The CEO has also done the complete opposite to what I put down as our process (exceeded our max numbers to start).

    I’m not quite sure how to push back now or if I can? I agreed before I knew the work involved (I’ve estimated that I’m putting in at least 2.5/3hrs extra per day). The protocol is a living document so I need to review changes weekly. My contract hasn’t changed. I don’t think I can negotiate as all our wages are currently cut.

    From the CEO’s reaction I believe I have now burned all my collateral for doing as asked. I report to him so I need his reference :(

    1. The New Wanderer*

      In the Us, there are hotlines in each (most?) state to report companies in violation of state protocols. Does your country have something similar, where you could submit an anonymous complaint? That’s assuming your CEO was lashing out at *you* for calling out the lack of adherence to protocol, and not lashing out in general because the protocol wasn’t being followed as it should be.

      IT sounds like you’re an untrained team of one who is putting in a lot of effort to develop and maintain a document that is being ignored by the powers that be. I think you’ll have to decide whether the extra work and stress, and all at lower pay, is worth the reference of a volatile CEO. I would be looking for a graceful way out, of at least responsibility for the protocol if not the job entirely (If this has the potential to tank your rep with the CEO), even if it meant admitting that I as the sole member of the team wasn’t put able to produce the level of effort required by the assignment (or similar).

  79. nep*

    Anyone use Canva for resumes? I am always on the fence between going with some template and using a simple Word doc. I found a very simple, minimalist template on Canva this morning and to me it really looks sleek and like I give a damn, more than my plain Word version. On the other hand, I know it’s about the content in the end. And there’s the issue of getting past automated systems…
    Thoughts? Experience? Tips from those who look at resumes all day?
    Thanks

    1. Picard*

      Just say no. :) I’m familiar with Canva and I have yet to see one on there thats simple/easy enough. But also my industry is very formal/traditional so YMMV.

    2. Reba*

      I’m not the right person to answer, as each time I go to do a minor update like change a date in a resume, I end up spending 2+ hours switching back and forth between nearly-identical fonts, lol.

      I feel like as long as it doesn’t have charts and icons and whatnots, it’s cool. Sometimes the Canva templates are more limited in customization than you might think, so that could be a drawback.

    3. T3*

      I’ve seen folks advise against them as they aren’t applicant tracking system (ATS) friendly. I’ve been thinking about using Canva myself to give my resume a refresh but an reconsidering now that I know that!

      1. T3*

        Whoops! I must’ve overlooked your note about ATS when I first read your comment. Please excuse me for restating the obvious.

    4. nep*

      Thanks for the feedback, all.
      I should put it this way too: Granted it varies by industry/field, but I’d be interested to know–for those of you getting plenty of interviews, what is the format/layout of your resume?
      I have read hiring managers’ comments like, we really do not give a toss how it looks on the page; we care only about what your experience and skills are. I get that and of course that makes sense. Content is top. But I do feel as if the nicer one (yet still very simple) looks more professional.
      The only two things I hate more than doing resumes and cover letters are COVID-19 and being un(der)employed.

      1. nep*

        Never mind. I am going with plain Word. ATS wins–too risky to go with the template, esp since can’t save as doc.
        Thanks, all.

    5. Detail Therapy*

      My current job is in such a small place that there is no ATS, and a Canva resume would have absolutely knocked the socks off the person who hired me, because she LOVES Canva but can’t ever talk anyone else into using it. It was one of the things we bonded over. So… I’m gonna say there’s no pat answer for this one. You could always have a text-only resume that you use for big companies that screen that way, and save your beautiful Canva one for folks who will appreciate it.

      1. nep*

        Really great points. Makes sense.
        I really like the polish of the Canva one and will have it on hand.
        The job I’m applying for now, I’m emailing the cover letter and resume, so I’m wondering whether that means a human will look at it. It’s not a giant organisation.
        We’ll see. I appreciate your input.

        1. Darren*

          Depends greatly on the company in mine it’ll be read by a human (but attachments can be easily uploaded to an ATS and this can be completely automated so you’d never even know), but a fancy pretty resume that distracts from the content is probably going to get thrown out in favour of one that is plain but well-structured to call out exactly why this person is appropriate.

          But also depends on the skillset, if it was someone in an artistic field I could understand wanting a more fancy resume (although when I’m judging artists I’m really looking at portfolios more than the resume most of the time).

  80. BlueWolf*

    My company has been basically entirely remote since March, and they are taking things really slow as far as reopening. They said they won’t require anyone back before September 1 (and possibly later). I feel that my work can be successfully completed remotely. Even before the pandemic I didn’t really need to leave my desk as all of my work communication could be done by phone/email.

    My annual review should be coming up any day now, so I’m wondering if it would be a good time to ask about continuing to work from home permanently (possibly from another state) post-pandemic. Our lease on our apartment is up soon and we hate our building, so we would like to move and need to make a decision relatively soon. My partner and I would prefer to move to another state where we could actually afford a house and would also be closer to family. Even if part-time WFH is an option, we could move a bit farther out from my office where housing is cheaper if I wouldn’t need to commute as often. One of the recent hires in our department (in a slightly different but related role) is a permanently remote employee who lives a few states away, so there is some precedent. I guess I’m struggling with how I would phrase the request. Basically, it wouldn’t be a deal breaker that I would leave my job over, just a nice-to-have perk.

    1. Picard*

      Moving to another state might be an issue unless you know your company already has employees in that state.

  81. I Can't Even Today*

    Hi, all. This may sound like a weird question, but if you leave a job without giving two weeks notice (I had to; it was an unsafe, abusive environment), does the hiring manager or recruiter ever contact your references (the ones they called before hiring you) again, letting them know you quit without working out your notice?

    2. RagingADHD*

      I’ve never heard of that happening, unless the reference was already a personal contact of theirs.

      But if the manager is some kind of irrational raging jerk, you never know what someone might do if they’re deliberately trying to be vindictive.

      I hope that’s not your situation! Even if they did, since the reference knows you they are probably going to think, “wow what a bizarre unprofessional jerk, I guess that’s why Can’t Even decided to leave!”

      1. I Can't Even Today*

        Hi, all, thanks for your replies; sorry for the late response. This was mentioned to me as a possibility (Not by anyone from the old workplace- just another case of friends/family giving inaccurate career advice). I am still glad I left, and I had a side job.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Unless they already were a close contact of the reference, I don’t know why they would do this–or how they would even remember who your references were!

      1. MassMatt*

        Right, this feels like a vendetta, or hopefully an empty threat. It would likely backfire on the perpetrators, as it is so out of the norm, plus you are the one with a relationship with your references, not the former boss. Even if you didn’t contact them to explain things, if they get a call from the ex-boss they are likely to be thinking “who is this, and why are you wasting my time badmouthing my old report I Can’t Even?”

  82. Orange Crushed*

    I’ll have colleagues tell me that they wouldn’t want my job “for all the money in the world” or something like that. They usually say this after a meeting or just as an off-the-cuff remark.

    How should I respond to this?

    3. Retail not Retail*

      “Then do it.”

      Ha! Turn it back around. “Ooooh I could never do your job!”

      Last week 2 kids got sick and we heard it on the radio and everyone was like…. whoo better that department than us! But it works better if their job is like… typical office work. “I could never be responsible for TPS reports! You have my admiration!”

    4. new kid*

      It could be that they’re trying to express how much work they see you doing and acknowledge that it takes a specific personality or skill set to do it well (like you do). If a coworker is venting about a hard task or conversation they have coming up I sometimes find my initial response is something like “I don’t envy you that!” or “I’m glad I don’t have your job!” but I mean it in a commiserating sort of way. I’m taking this comment as notice that I should maybe be more thoughtful about that in the future.

    5. Environmental Compliance*

      I get that a lot as the environmental compliance person. Usually it’s meant as a compliment, just worded weird – I deal with a lot of regulations & working directly with regulatory agencies, so it’s scary to some people. In that scenario I generally respond with a cheery “that’s why you got me!” If I know them pretty well, then I’ll make a joke about it, “next time the (dry-sounding, overly-acronym’d report) is due, it’s your turn. we signed up for shifts on this one.”

    6. JanetM*

      In my experience, I’ve usually felt it is being offered as a compliment, that I’m doing work outside their skillset or comfort zone. Your mileage may vary, based on tone of voice, expression, office culture, and so on. I generally say something like, “Yeah, well, everyone has different strengths.”

    7. CM*

      I’m a lawyer and get comments like this. I just laugh and say, “Somebody’s gotta do it!” or “But what could be more fun than 300 pages of regulations?” or something light.

      I interpret this comment as saying that to them, my job seems really unpleasant, both tedious and high-conflict at the same time. And I get that, it’s definitely not something everybody would enjoy. But it works for me. And I also hear the comment as expressing that they see the importance of my job, but they’re glad it’s me and not them doing it.

    8. nep*

      No need to respond, unless you really feel you need to make a point of responding, putting something across to them.

  83. Health Disclosure*

    Has anyone else felt pressured to disclose health issues to managers/supervisors due to Covid? My only colleague in our very small department is diabetic, and we are being pressured to return the office full-time on July 1st. Masks are encouraged, but no other measures are being taken. She is distraught and feels like she has to justify her terror via her disease, and I don’t know what else to tell her.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      If you’re uncomfortable, you could be more general. “I’m at an increased risk due to an underlying under control health issue.”

      I’m queen oversharer though – the week we closed to the public I was like look I live with my mom, she got a letter from her doctor, I’m nervous! Hell, I did it for her last week too – she broke her ribs y’all, so… anything happens I am out of here.

      I guess you weigh your safety vs desire to disclose. Are there other employees in other departments? Can your colleague reach out and see if anyone else is in the same boat?

      1. LQ*

        Yeah, for a while people here had to disclose something, but what they had to disclose was “I’m at an increased risk.” I think part of it is what is the pressure and how solid or internal is it? I had someone on my team who one day started freaking out and telling me all these reasons why she shouldn’t have to come back in. We’d never said anything (official line is end of the year). I talked her down off the edge and finally it came down to a relative of hers was being told to go back and she thought that meant that we’d start doing it too. I think we hadn’t talked about it much. (We are really busy, and it’s sort of…settled so until things change why bother keep talking about them.) So it just kind of blew up. Plus someone else who’d been sent home came back and it was someone she knew.

        Just start by talking to the boss and saying, “I’d prefer to continue working from home for now.” See what happens. But that might be the end of it.

        From there work the way up to “I have increased risk and need to continue working from home.”
        And after that a generic doctor’s note that doesn’t include any specific details.

    2. WellRed*

      As a person with type 1 diabetes, I’m surprised that in a small office that no one knows about it. If she’s super concerned, she’s going to have to disclose it, though I’d try the vague, “health condition” first.

    3. Reba*

      My large org has set up an email for people to reach out to the Covid response team. You don’t have to report it through your manager — although eventually they are going to be aware you have a health condition, if you have accommodations, but the idea is that you don’t have to get into the nitty gritty with the supervisor.

  84. Anonymous Educator*

    I’ve heard often that HR works for the company and not for the employee and will side with the company and not with the employee if the employee complains, but if HR sides with a harasser over a harassee, is it really protecting the company or protecting the employee… just the wrong employee? Why is the harasser considered representative of the company and the harassee considered representative of employees? Both harasser and harasseee are employees. Isn’t ousting harassers supposed to be in the best interests of the company (in theory)?

    1. WellRed*

      In theory, yes. Creating a safe workplace for all employees should benefit the company. In reality, to use your example, HR may be incompetent, or like the harasser better or the harasser is very senior or politically connected in the company or some sort of rainmaker.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Fully agree. I just think how we frame this failure matters. Labeling it as “protecting the company” almost makes it sound as if those HR actions may be okay, whereas “protecting someone they like better or who has better connections” is pretty clear is messed up and doesn’t necessarily benefit the company.

    2. Koala dreams*

      Yes, a good HR should deal swiftly with harassment, as it’s in the company’s best interest. Of course, the company is not a person, and usually people feel more loyalty with persons than companies. I think many people underestimate how many businesses decisions are made on personal grounds and not because they make sense from a business perspective. As they used to tell the students in first year business classes, the economic man is an idea, people are not that logical. (Nor are they all men, but that’s a different story.)

    3. Jen MaHRtini*

      Assuming the HR person isn’t incompetent or awful, what’s far more likely is that management is the one siding with the harasser and not HR. In most organizations, HR makes recommendations but may not have the authority to act on them without leadership backup. If the harasser plays golf with the CEO, brings in millions of dollars, etc. the HR person may not get cooperation. Good HR people will push back on that, but remember they have to worry about staying employed as well.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Definitely. And if that’s what’s happening, that should be called out that way as well instead of saying that HR is acting in the company’s best interests and not the employee’s. The CEO is not the company.

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Ancient human tendency to shoot the messenger. Plus they don’t want to wash dirty linen in public — and even in the civilized world 2020, some still feel trying to sweep everything under the carpet (and to throw the complainant under the bus) is protecting the company.

      Not to mention in any case the company is supposed to comply with the law and basic social norms. I can understand how, say, a law firm managing partner may want to retaliate against junior associates or secretaries who complaint about a senior partner with his own book of business. But…again, this is 2020, not 1820. Profit maximization is not always or even usually the supreme law anymore.

  85. September start date in hospitality*

    Should I look for something better even with a job offer in hand?
    In March I accepted a job offer as a night auditor in the newest location of a local luxury hotel chain. I’m an accounting student working in customer service and this was the only vaguely accounting-related job I was offered on short notice. I needed something new ASAP since the customer service job was getting worse and worse in terms of working conditions – restroom access, etc. I never gave notice at the customer service job due to covid uncertainty and am receiving unemployment.
    The hotel start date was moved to mid-September but the equation has changed. Should I apply for jobs that are more relevant to accounting and just use the hotel job as a backup?
    Hotel position was offered as full time with benefits, decent hourly – very comparable pay to a clerical AP or AR position. My fear is that hours will be cut back to part time or benefits will be cut due to covid/lack of business and my “loyalty” in waiting for the delayed start date will screw me over. Businesses that are hiring for full time positions right now, on the other hand, will be offering full time/benefits with much more current data than a hotel that wrote me a job offer in early February! It could also be my chance to land a job that would be more relevant experience for future staff accountant jobs.
    On the other hand, the hotel chain has been very successful in the past decade and seems like a very good work environment with room to move up. HQ is local and different paths for moving up (hotel management vs corporate accounting) were discussed at the interview. I don’t know that it’s smart to get a start in an industry that’s going to be depressed for the next couple of years at a minimum? I will graduate in 2022 and do need to be working full time, student loans not an option.

    1. Annony*

      Keep looking. Your start date already got pushed back. It could be pushed back again or even pulled. Right now a job offer with a start date so far out is not a guarantee that the job will exist.

      1. September start date in hospitality*

        They just built a massive new building to house this hotel plus condos I believe? Seems wild to bail on that but I suppose it’s been known to happen.

    2. WellRed*

      Keep looking. You don’t actually have the job at the moment. You have the job offer.

    3. Honoria, Dowager Duchess of Denver*

      Hi – I’m currently in the travel industry and forecasts are not good at the moment. Currently they don’t expect to get back up to 2019 levels until at least 2023.

      My suggestion would be to look elsewhere as I suspect this offer may continue to get pushed back or rescinded entirely.

      1. September start date in hospitality*

        Ugh. Thanks for confirming my thoughts about that, I guess? The extra unemployment money has basically been a scholarship to get ahead with my coursework this summer. So I was happy to deal with the first push back but I will bow out with no shame if there is a 2nd one. It just feels so shitty to be job hunting when I’ve already done all my new employee paperwork. I suppose now is the time to job hunt with high standards, not just jump on one of the 6 month IRS temp jobs.

    4. Can Can Cannot*

      Have you looked into filing for unemployment? Section 2102(a)(3)(A)(ii)(I)(gg) of the CARES Act covers people who were “scheduled to commence employment and does not have a job or is unable to reach the job as a direct result of the COVID-19 public health emergency.”

      1. September start date in hospitality*

        Luckily I am getting unemployment the “easy” way because I had not yet given notice at the customer service job when covid got serious in my state. I’m technically “temporarily furloughed” because the entire company is in hibernation.

  86. HeightsHeifer*

    Does anyone have advice on how to regroup after getting fired from a toxic job? I took a leap to this job last year because it appeared challenging and the commute was much closer to my home — instead I found my supervisor to be both a micromanager and unwilling to share information on how to succeed at the role. It really took a hit to my self-esteem to make some major improvements to the area, but have to constantly walk on eggshells. On several occasions she reprimanded me in front of my team, which made it doubly difficult to gain their trust.

    I had a feeling the termination was coming but was surprised nonetheless. I have a few interviews scheduled but am struggling with 1) explaining the reason I’m not employed; and 2) how to properly convey that I am a competent, hard working and valuable professional?

    1. The Rural Juror*

      I wasn’t exactly in the same situation, but I once gave 3 weeks notice to a toxic boss and was told to get out. He stared at me from across his desk told me to get out and don’t come back. So I went next door to my office, packed up, and left. It was very disheartening. I had coworkers and clients that I really liked, and I didn’t get to say goodbye to anyone or give them any kind of guideline for how to continue my projects. IT SUCKED.

      Luckily I had a new job lined up, but I didn’t want to trash my former workplace to my new boss. When they asked about the transition, because they knew my old boss and were curious, I said he didn’t take it well and I didn’t work out my notice period. They were understanding and didn’t ask any further.

      You weren’t a good fit for that company and that company wasn’t a good fit for you. Have some questions about the potential companies’ cultures and work environment in mind for your interviewers. You can take a question about your former position and turn it into an opportunity to learn about the culture of their company and how their employees work together, style of managers, etc. I think Alison has had some good scripts for that in past columns. Time to dig into the archives! Remember what she says often – interviews are a two-way street. You’re interviewing them as well. If you go into it prepared, then you’ll look professional and competent and valuable.

      I’m sorry you had that experience, but I’m glad you’re out of there. I remember feeling so relieved when I left old toxic company – but not until after I had time to wallow in how much my exit sucked. Good luck!!!

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        Thank you! I’ve had a few phone calls or video interviews and I still feel like I’m babbling – I think the best response I’ve received has been when I said “I’m too nice for (industry)!”.

  87. T3*

    Small rant. I’ll be back later to post a few questions I have for the group!

    But I am so tired of my colleagues trying to engage me (a black person) in conversations about race as a way to educate themselves. Among the many gems said to me during a meeting with my boss this week was her equating her experience as a white woman (30+ yrs my sr no less) to mine a black person (early in my career), and simultaneously saying that she has no idea what it’s like to be me. When I did say the one thing I was willing to say in this mostly one sided conversation, she repeatedly interjected and talked over me, even after I continued to speak and pointed out that I wasn’t finished talking.

    Based on the way things closed out. i know in her mind this conversation was productive and went well.

    Ya’ll WTF???

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s horrific. Non-Black people, especially white people, please stop centering yourselves and stop asking your Black colleagues to do emotional labor for you. Yikes…

    3. T3*

      *Should say: I know she thinks this conversation went well and was productive based on the way she closed out the meeting.

      (It did not.) Please stop asking black folks to do emotional labor. And don’t ask us for our opinions if you’re not actually invested in listening.

    4. CM*

      Ughhh. And it sounds like your boss wasn’t even trying to educate herself — just trying to make herself feel better for “reaching out to a Black person” and I bet at the end she congratulated herself for being brave enough to have this conversation with you. So frustrating.

      1. T3*

        You pretty much nailed it. At the end of our convo she started to wax poetic about how she has no problem with helping others advance in their careers and that she wants to see people grow…blah blah blah. And all I could think is how would you even begin to help someone if you refuse to listen to them. Phew! People at my job have been really trying it.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      While I don’t want to make light of your situation at all, this reminds me so much of Issa’s experience at We Got Y’all in Insecure and it was so cringe-inducing in the context of a TV show, I am cringing extra hard for your experience in real life. I am so sorry you have to deal with such thoughtless ignorance. It is infuriating when people give lip service to doing better and don’t bother to pay attention to themselves and what’s coming out of their own mouths. I know I can’t say anything to make it better, but I hope– really, really hope– someone who was there comes up to you today and says, “What the eff was that in that meeting?”

      1. T3*

        lmao! I don’t see it as you making light of anything. In fact, reading this actually made me chuckle because that reference is SOOO apt. Wow thank you for that, I needed that laugh today.

        Unfortunately, it was just me and the boss in the meeting, but my supervisor is just as clueless, only her approach is to talk around the issue. She always seems so on edge anytime anything race related comes up.

  88. Savannnah*

    It is SUCH an uphill battle at my office to convince faculty that just because they are faculty does not mean they are experts at all learning modalities. Being undermined by years of Dr./faculty infatuation and hierarchy has lead to spotty educational products, services, programs and expectations. Worst of all insecure faculty who make rash choices because they haven’t received the proper faculty development needed. I took a step back down the latter to take on this position in my location and it is rough to know what needs to be changed but feel unable to make it. My current concern is that I’m bugging the crap out of my colleagues who just don’t see these concerns as a priority even though we are out of line with national regulations and accreditation. The gap between me and my new team feels huge, does anyone have any advice on how to cope with that while moving forward? It does not help that I started in March just after the shut down and haven’t met many folks in person yet.

  89. I'm just here for the cats*

    I’d like to do some freelance writing or editing it I’m leary of some of the posts I’ve seen on LinkedIn. Does anyone do freelance writing/editing. Where did you start looking for leads? I’m in a small Wisconsin city so I’m not finding anything locally, and don’t have much of a Network.

    1. RagingADHD*

      I started on Upwork and Guru, but they were pretty crappy.

      Check out reddit – there are subreddits on freelancewriters and freelancewriting. One of them (sorry, can’t recall which) has a good wiki on getting started that I wish I’d had at the time.

    1. CatCat*

      Hahahaha! ““Right away, the fellow told me he liked my gumption…” DYING!

      The accompanying video is also solid gold. Thanks for sharing!

  91. Anima*

    My workplace is chronically understaffed. Currently three people are on holiday and we are falling apart.
    How do I tell my boss that I will quit if we do not hire minimum 2 people in the next three months?
    I feel that “boss, what are you going to do against us being understaffed? Nothing? Okay, then I’ll quit” sounds way too harsh.
    Advice and wording is greatly appreciated!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I was in a similar situation. Basically I vented a bit (which wasn’t appropriate, looking back) and also showed tangible evidence of my overwork. I said I didn’t know how much longer I could deal with it. My boss got the message and we eventually hired someone… but not until things slowed down for us.

      Ultimately that situation showed me a lot about my boss. I realized she was not a good supervisor and that was one of the factors that wound up with me transferring to a slightly different job with a different manager.

    2. Reba*

      I’d ask if you can be let in on the staffing plan, and use words like “unsustainable” and “burnout.”

    3. Anima*

      Thank you, both, that sounds a lot more like sentence and I got words I can use! Hope this will do something, otherwise I’ll quit for real….

    4. Kathenus*

      I know it’s easier said than done, but it might help to focus less on the staffing level, and more on being very clear with your boss what amount of work is realistic in the current situation. “Boss, while we have three people off on holiday, I wanted to let you know how I’m prioritizing the work during short staffing, since we obviously can’t complete the same amount being down three people. So I’ll be focusing on A, B, and C as my first priority, and if time allows then I’ll do as much of D, E, and F as time allows. If you’d prefer a different prioritization, let me know, thanks.”

  92. litprof*

    I’m looking for advice about how to approach a conversation next week with my boss about my annual review. Specifically, does anyone have thoughts on how much background information to offer when one has struggled with a project, but the reasons for the struggle veer from the professional into the personal?

    For context, I’m an assistant professor at a university, but my job largely consists of work that look a bit more “administrative” than “academic.” (I do the traditional teaching and research as well). My boss is an excellent manager and mentor – he’s always looking out for opportunities for us and gives us tons of support.

    I’ve already had my annual review (I complete a report, we do peer feedback with everyone in my office, and my boss sums it up in writing and adds his own comments to it). The conversation is just a chance to discuss the feedback and set goals for the next year. The feedback is all positive, but my boss expressed that he wants to help me with some setbacks I’ve had on an article I’m writing. We are collaborating on the project, but I am the main author. It’s very clear he’s approaching this from the perspective of coaching and supporting me, not criticizing me. The project has taken way longer to write than I expected. I wanted to publish it last fall, but instead I’ve barely started drafting it.

    The issue is that I’m a huge perfectionist who struggles with writing. I somehow managed to write a dissertation and get a PhD, but it was an incredibly painful process! There is really nothing he can do to help me with the article – I understand what I need to do, the preliminary research is done, and I have no confusion or qualms about what the final product should look like. I just CAN’T seem to do it. I’m not procrastinating. I’ve spent hours and hours on it. At this point, working on it just leads to tears – I get frustrated when the work is slow going, and then that turns into a huge shame spiral about how I don’t know what I’m doing and can’t get it done. To what extent should I inform my boss about the emotional elements, if at all? To my mind, it’s something I should take up with a therapist, not my boss. But I don’t want to leave him in the dark, especially if he’s thinking there’s a way he could help me. How much disclosure would be appropriate? How can I frame the issue in a way that focuses on the work elements, rather than on my emotional and psychological nees>

    1. CM*

      I guarantee you, your boss has seen this issue before. You are NOT alone. And just saying it out loud can be hugely helpful in getting over the shame spiral.

      If you think your boss is a reasonable person who respects you, I’d suggest saying this: “I want to be honest with you. I’m having a lot of trouble actually writing the paper. The research is done and I understand what to do, but my perfectionism is getting in the way. I’ve spent many hours but have nothing to show for it. I’m wondering if you’ve experienced this before and have any suggestions for me.”

      I’d also suggest talking to your peers about this. Again, I think this is a pretty common issue even though it might seem shameful. People might have useful suggestions or might offer to be accountability buddies.

      1. litprof*

        Thank you for the kind reply! I know that my boss is both very reasonable and respects me, so I’ll be straightforward with him in the manner you suggest.

    2. another academic*

      Awareness, Acceptance, Action. You are aware. You do accept. Now what is the action. What you are experiencing is not only typical, there is a twitter feed. Sh*t Academics say that address this very common academic issue. For me the answer was “shut up and write” Take off your editors hat, take off your critic hat, take off your academic hat and write. Write as if you are speaking to a dear friend who asked the question. Set aside time. My time was Thursday’s from 8 am to 1:00 pm with revision and further research on the other day. I had an accountability partner that I texted and sent pages.
      The issue may be that promotion and tenure are dependent on publication. That can be paralyzing. Accept that there is no perfect. Keep moving.

  93. you can call me flower, if you want to*

    I’ve read a lot about how being more transparent about pay is important and can help solve some issues regarding pay disparity. Recently my friends and I all shared our salary info (we’re all cis women) and I can’t help but feel like it made things weird. We are all in our second/third jobs out of school. I have one friend in the medical field, a few friends who are teachers, and another friend who is being ridiculously underpaid for her work in a field she hates. She has never asked for a raise. They seemed really surprised about how much I made. I’m paid well for my position. I left my nonprofit job for one in tech and negotiated well when I was hired. I followed all of Alison’s great advice to get this job and get the salary I wanted. I feel like there is a weird wedge between us now, but it may be my anxiety talking. Was it a mistake to share how much I make? I feel uncomfortable that I make more than many of my friends. The AAM community is awesome at giving advice. I could really use some insight and wisdom here. Thanks

    1. Sunset Maple*

      I don’t see how this would have helped any of you. The point is to share amongst peers with similar jobs, or amongst people within your company, to ensure that everyone is being treated equitably. A scattershot selection of girlfriends sharing salaries of their random jobs doesn’t do that.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m conflicted here. Sure transparency is the better way to go in theory. In reality, you are all in such wildly different fields I’m not sure how helpful such an exercise is.

    3. CM*

      I agree with the others that the advice to share salaries is to help people who have similar jobs see if they’re being paid the same for the same work, not just to be transparent for the sake of transparency.

      Now that this horse is out of the barn, I think it will just take some time and willingness to move past this with your group of friends. Hopefully, once everyone gets past their initial reactions, they can be mature enough to accept that different people make different amounts of money and other people’s finances are their own business. But you should also be prepared that some people will have trouble moving past feelings of jealousy and unfairness.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      Yeah, as other pointed out, the idea isn’t to share salary with random friends, but your colleagues and coworkers so you know if you’re being underpaid at your company or in your industry and to look for illegal pay disparities that seem to be based on race or sex in your company. The only thing here is maybe your underpaid friend who has never asked for a raise can understand that asking for a raise/negotiating is something a person/woman can do but in wildly different industries it still doesn’t give her context on what’s appropriate at her level and job.

      I have always worked for the federal government where if you know a few details, you know my salary. So I’m pretty blase about it. Still I haven’t shared with my friends that last I crossed the 6 figure line – just barely. I’m in IT and I work virtually. I make a lot more than them – a teacher and someone else who does something with an insurance company working from home. They can tell I don’t worry about money even though I don’t spend wildly. But they both have kids so there smaller salaries don’t go nearly as far as mine. I don’t think they’d begrudge me my salary. I am very aware I have to take care of myself in retirement without any kids or other family to lean on.

      But anyway I would not have recommended the salary discussion with random friends. Maybe they are jealous of you. But I bet it’s more in your head with your own anxiety and discomfort about making more than your friends. I think you need to try to forget it about when you’re with them. But you can can also make decisions to be generous when you can without being condescending. Like paying for a shared appetizer without trying to buy everyone’s meal and tipping generously in general because being in a tipped job is extra awful right now but also allowing your friends to maybe put in a bit less for tip without feeling bad.

      Put the show on the other foot. You wouldn’t begrudge your friends a great job and a great salary even if it were more than yours. They probably happy for you even if they feel bad for themselves. You are not being paid well at the expense of them, and they know it.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      There is another way it could be useful, and that is to let people know what various fields pay (for people interested in changing careers, for example). I’m 100% sure that none of my friends outside my field have any idea how much I make. If you only knew what degree I hold, you would likely have no idea since mine is the kind of degree people sometimes associate with social work or other (criminally underpaid) counseling type work. I’m not volunteering the information, but if someone wanted to know I would certainly talk about the expected pay ranges at various levels of seniority/experience.

      I think with friends, the actual numbers aren’t helpful to people in vastly different fields, but the negotiation strategy discussion can be.

  94. Paris Geller*

    Due to my current work situation, I find myself being sent to different work locations when previously, I was fairly stationary. At least 1-2 times a week I’m reporting to a different branch, and I always have a ton of stuff I’m carrying with me–my purse, my work laptop, and supplies. Right now I’m carrying everything in my laptop bag and tote bags, but that gets heavy and it’s been rough on the shoulders/arms! I’m looking for suggestions of rolling carrying cases/bags and wanted to see if anyone here had a recommendation. Preferably I’d like something that could potentially collapse or at least fold so it takes up less space when empty, and something lightweight that I can easily lift in and out of my car.

    1. Policy Wonk*

      I use a small carry-on suitcase. An increasing number of them look more like over-sized briefcases. My current one is Samsonite, but I’ve also had others in the past.

  95. Retail not Retail*

    How much pain is acceptable in a sedentary office job? At my current one, even those who are in shape and not broken find themselves with sore muscles after doing a different task. (I had to lift a shovel higher than normal. My arms said ?????)

    But old injuries that flare up. I usually grit through this but driving seriously scared me this morning and a lap around the park before clock in time did not help so I left. I have been able to make it through a day. If I had a professional job and it hurt like it does (sitting! Knives!) what would you recommend? Especially as a supervisor/manager?

    1. Christmas*

      That kind of pain is not normal! Most jobs (in my area) explictly ask and notify you about being able to lift objects of 50 lbs or more. WHY ARE YOU LIFTING SHOVELS IN AN OFFICE JOB? I don’t mean to shout, I’m just bewildered!
      If you’re being given manual labor that is not in your job description to perform, then do NOT do that sh*t. Document all of this. And see a doctor immediately.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        Oh no! This is a hypothetical – I have the type of job where shovel lifting is reasonable!

        I’m just asking – if I ever get a sit down job and my hip has not resolved itself, what is the pain expectation/experience when you don’t have the kind of job that is physically difficult?

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Is standing a problem? My coworker had a back issue, and sitting was painful, but standing was fine. He bought a standing desk. Now, my entire office has company-provided sit/stand desks. You can also get an internal ergo assessment* for any other accommodations, like a keyboard, ball chair, footrest, etc.

          *My coworker could have gotten the company to provide a stand-up desk, but it was an easier path to buy mine for $100 (orig $250) when I moved.

          My company works with us to make sure we’re comfortable and aren’t affected by chronic issues, but if it’s just a weekend warrior injury or something, you have to manage the short-term pain on your own. Any medical treatment is on us, too, assuming it wasn’t a work-caused injury.

        2. Picard*

          I really think thats impossible to say. Everyone’s pain tolerance is different, your particular injury is unique to you, your chair ergonomics will vary…. there are just too many variables.

    2. RagingADHD*

      When doing normal duties for your job is painful, ideally you would talk to your doctor, get physical therapy, and work with HR/management to get accommodations as needed (like a standing or sit/stand desk).

      A lot of people have chronic pain or mobility issues. There’s usually some level at which you have to suck it up, but the first step is to see what, if anything, you can do to make it suck less.

  96. Christmas*

    I have an issue with some Mean Girls coworkers that’s really bothering me.
    Three of my coworkers make the same joke about me pretty regularly (one usually starts, and the other 2 agree and laugh along). In *every* staff meeting, they comment/joke that I “interrupt” others or just talk too much in general.
    At the most recent staff meeting, someone mentioned the phrase “2 ears 1 mouth” (we work with children) and Regina loudly called out, “I’m gonna use that on Christmas (me)!” Her buddies laughed and called out verbal agreements. Later, during a discussion, Gretchen interrupted ME to say “Dang, Christmas is always interrupting people!” … I immediately apologized and stopped talking.

    The truth is, unless I’m missing something, I don’t think I’m interrupting anyone! I raise my hand in staff meetings and wait to be explicitly called on. When in a big group discussion, yes we will ALL typically call things out over each other, because it’s the culture. For example, someone might yell out “What about that training on the 8th?” and I might call back, “Actually it’s on the 10th, so were good.” For that kind of thing, I don’t raise my hand and wait. Nobody does!

    Because of the comments, I’ve been wondering if I’m talking too much or too long when I raise my hand, and if I’m cluelessly interrupting others (maybe they are seated behind me and I don’t see or hear them?) It’s too consistently joked about to be untrue.

    I asked TWO different (trusted) coworkers to give me a discreet signal (such as handing me a pen) the next time I go over in a meeting or interrupt somebody. They both said something to the effect of “Why? It’s not a problem.” or “Sure, but I don’t see why.” But they both agreed to do it.
    If this doesn’t work, I’m going to stop talking COMPLETELY in staff meetings!

    1. Littorally*

      At this point, it sounds like this is something you should talk to your manager about. Even if you are interrupting or talking too much, this would be a very inappropriate way to handle it. You are all presumably adults, so if Regina or her clique have a problem with your behavior, they need to talk to you about it directly, not make snide public comments and laugh.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Is the manager present during these meetings? What has their response been so far? It’s weird that they haven’t stepped in to put a stop to the comments if they’re being made so openly during staff meetings.

        I would take that as an opening to have a conversation with your manager. Say you’ve noticed this pattern of negative comments aimed at you, it’s making you second guess your contributions, and does your manager have any concerns about your communication
        skills. If they say they don’t, then ask the manager to put a stop to the comments as they are making you self conscious and not contributing to a positive environment (or something like that).

        1. Christmas*

          At least of our supervisors is always present and leading the meeting, and they always either laugh along or just skim over it and keep going with the meeting. Sigh.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            Even if the manager hasn’t directly observed this then, I think it’s still worth bringing it up to them and include the part where the supervisors don’t seem to have the meeting under control if this is the sort of targeted negative behavior they allow. The manager needs to be talking to the bullies as well as the supervisors. It sucks and I’m sorry you have to do this, but no one deserves to have an environment where they feel belittled for daring to contribute.

    2. you can call me flower, if you want to*

      Wow, that sounds terrible. I’m so sorry. I would try saying, “It’s not really helpful when you keep mentioning that you think I talk too much over and over again. Do you have a specific suggestion for how you think I should participate in meetings differently? I currently do a,b, and c.” And see what they say. Sometimes when you call someone on this type of behavior it will stop. Or you will find out that they are just bullies. Either way, I think you’ll get some valuable information. Don’t stop speaking in meetings.

    3. I'm just here for the cats!*

      Could you talk with your manager or someone higher and ask if this is a problem? If other co-workers don’t see a problem I don’t think there is one.
      Is there a way you could nicely call them out? Or have a someone else call them out. Like when they interrupt you have one of your trusted co-workers say, what wow that’s really rude to say when your interrupting Christmas. Or perhaps you say what an odd thing to comment on. I would stop apologizing. Like if they say your interupting. Stop and be like oh, was there someone else speaking I didn’t see anyone.

      1. CM*

        Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. You’re being bullied. Don’t ask co-workers to tell you when you’re really doing something wrong — they’ve already told you that you are fine. Instead, ask your co-workers for help, and your manager too.

        Ask your co-workers them to speak up when the Mean Girls say you’re interrupting, and affirm that you were NOT interrupting. Assuming your manager agrees you’re not interrupting, explain how this behavior is resulting in your not wanting to speak at all. Ask your manager to tell the Mean Girls explicitly that this behavior is not acceptable.

    4. Koala dreams*

      If people you trust say it’s not a problem, then you shouldn’t stop speaking in meetings. Mean comments don’t need to be true, in fact they often aren’t. (Those comments doesn’t sound like jokes to me, they sound like bullying.) Do you trust your boss? In that case maybe you can ask them if they would like you to speak more or less in meetings.

      When other people interrupt you, it’s fine to say something. If the bullies do the same thing to others, you can say something then too.

  97. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    My job is beginning to discuss a phased reopening, and I just wanna say how much I appreciate where I work. Sometimes I feel a little undercompensated and underworked, but right now that’s being more than made up for by the amount of respect and care staff is being shown.
    We had a meeting of just our division to discuss how we’d handle our reopening, and the director was repeatedly emphatic that our safety comes first and to bring up any concerns we have. The institution is buying us PPE and cleaning supplies (someone mentioned in passing bringing lysol wipes from home when we reopen, and the director was like, “you are NOT paying yourself for stuff you need for work safety, that’s being ordered on our budget”). The reopening process isn’t seeming rushed, it’ll be starting sometime in the summer with one staff member in the office at a time to process physical materials (which will be quarantined for a few days before we touch them), and not open to the public, and will only later phase into allowing a few patrons at a time in, and we’ll be able to enforce a “no mask, no service” policy.

    And today staff got an email from the office of the university president with a survey asking us to rank our reopening preferences (options: continue WFH only, do a partial reopen where staff take turns coming in, fully reopen with safety protocols)

  98. Asking for a friend, seriously!*

    My mom’s work just started bringing people back to the office, but they are having her work from home. One of the new policies for the office is that if they call in sick, for any reason, they have to have a doctor’s note to come back. They are a smaller company and their sick leave is a joke (3 days per year). It’s her understanding that no matter what they have to have a drs note, even non COVID symptom’s. So like if someone has a migraine they have to go to Dr, which in my city can be at least 3 day wait, unless you go to ER which seems stupid to do.
    I can understand screening them and asking if they had COVID symptom’s before comming back.
    I think that this is getting into a grey area. Because a person who has a medical condition, might have to tell the boss about it when they wouldn’t like to or wouldn’t need to in regular times. For example someone who suffers from fibromyalgia, doesn’t have any FMLA set up because it’s well contolled, most of the time. If they needed a day off for flare-up they might have to or feel the need to disclose their medical condition to their employer, which could inadvertently cause discrimination. What do others think. Is it ok for employers to demand a Dr note for non COVID related sick time?

    1. Rebecca*

      Yes, they can ask, but in my opinion it’s a colossal waste of resources. Doctor’s offices are busy enough without having to see people for no good reason (and putting everyone further at risk) just to write a note because of a totally normal thing to miss work for, like a migraine.

    2. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Yeah, I think it’s a ridiculous policy. Even as a Covid precaution in cases of respiratory symptoms/fever? They’re hardly gonna clear someone with potential covid symptoms without a test, which will take a week or so to come back.
      And for non-Covid symptoms, it’s just ridiculous. Most of the time I take a sick day, I take it because I have some kind of bug that will clear on its own, and way faster if I sleep for 24 hours.
      And yeah, if someone has a private doctors appointment (fibromyalgia! HIV! Pregnancy!) then they shouldn’t need to disclose that. THough hopefully the doctor would have thought of that and be able to write a fairly neutral note.

  99. Sharkie*

    So. I really love it when companies advertise jobs needing 3-5 years of experience, make you take an hour long skills assessment and personality test( with questions like what did your high school classmates think about you ?)then offer you a job and tell you that you are only worth $12 an hour lol

    Sorry but I know my self worth

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      In a similar vein, I love it when companies advertise jobs and don’t include the salary, even though that’s super relevant information to candidates applying.

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Or they ask for five professional references for a entry level position, or they rewrite my entire resume to make it more “appealing”…

  100. Arbitration-n-Unions*

    So there was a big post here yesterday about how unions are great and perfect and solve every employer ill.

    How do folks who are on that side of things align that with the concerns about unions and arbitration, specifically police unions, but others too?

    I had to be a part of arbitration because a coworker attacked his boss and I was the witness. It is incredibly scary that he may end up coming back because my testimony isn’t strong enough, or because I didn’t fill out a separate police report, or because this guy didn’t get a warning that you’re not supposed to physically attack your boss. The union is very vocal about saying he did nothing wrong. There’s no actual denial that he attacked his boss, but …it’s like that’s fine because…I don’t even know. (And before a lot of folks get upset and freak out because all bosses are evil, no, he didn’t provoke the guy, he wasn’t agressive, he wasn’t bullying, he was enforcing the most basic, most legal of rules, and the guy attacked his boss with the closest thing at hand, which was luckily not a knife or a letter opener. This guy should absolutely be fired. And he was, except now he might have to come back and I may have to work beside him and I’m scared.)

      1. Arbitration-n-Unions*

        I mean, I’m not sure what’s not normal. Unions advocating for someone who was violent happens all the time with police unions. And this union has definitely chosen to advocate for certain groups’ rights over the rights of other groups. (Mostly along gender lines, but I suspect I just haven’t seen as many cases of it happening along racial lines because it’s not a very diverse group that I’ve seen personally.)

        And yes, you can “just” get rid of bad folks in the unions, except I’ve seen it happen where the union stewards use grievances to make trouble for folks who are running against them. They just use the same system to harass folks.

        I really hope that most unions do not support physical assault. But I think that it’s reasonable to talk about arbitration and violence right now. (And partly because of what I’m experiencing, but also that it’s in the news so much.)

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I worked along side a very corrupt union that successfully arbitrated each offense to the point that the company kowtowed to everything and many terrible actors got paid vacations since they were advocated for by a brazen union (please know that I am pro-union). It takes a strong management who is willing to let cases like this go all the way to court. The union and the attacker would have lost. I’d bet money on it. However, this rarely happens because companies do not want to fight. For many reasons. It takes non-covered people and reasonable covered people to stand up and speak.

      1. Arbitration-n-Unions*

        Yeah, I don’t think ours is fully corrupt, but it is littered with long term bad actors who are absolutely not in it to support workers rights. (They not only didn’t support the janitorial folks in the building unionizing (not staff of where I work) but did some pretty shitty things like essentially telling on the janitorial folks to their bosses. These are mostly folks who don’t speak English well and could REALLY use a good union and it would be a good use of our union to support them. But they won’t. It’s gross.)

        I don’t know all the details but I was told that the last stop was the arbitration, there isn’t a step beyond that so if the arbitrator says he comes back to work then he does, and then if they move his job, his seat, anything…it’ll be retaliation, at which point I don’t know how much more the leadership here is willing to fight right now so are they going to just move everyone else out. And right now we aren’t supposed to talk about it at all because it’s under investigation and if the arbitration is not public then a whole bunch of people are going to be working with someone who is known to be violent in the workplace without being told. Which makes me nervous about how many other times this has happened.

    3. Emi.*

      That sounds really scary and I’m sorry! I do agree with Cat that it doesn’t seem normal.

      As far as police unions go, I do not consider cops to be a real part of the labor movement. They’re enforcers for capital, not workers. They’re not in solidarity with us. They don’t walk picket lines, they don’t protect us from the bosses, and they are not our brothers (or sisters).

      1. Arbitration-n-Unions*

        Maybe it’s just because of where I’m at that police unions are really substantial. I don’t know that I disagree about them not being a part of the labor movement, but I don’t know the history of how they got started well enough to confidently speak to that. I just know that from where I’m at right now their power makes me deeply uncomfortable and I’m watching shadows of that in my own job and it’s frightening.

        1. CatsAway*

          There was an NPR podcast recently about police unions and one of the points made was that police unions bargain for, and get, a lot of things that normal unions don’t – like when they have to make a statement about an incident they were involved in, so it’s not exactly an apples – apples comparison. (google NPR podcast police union).

    4. ThatGirl*

      Pretty sure the post did not say unions are perfect and solve everything.

      Also we should abolish police unions, or at the absolute least, make them pay for misconduct settlements.

    5. Koala dreams*

      Unions are made of people, and they are not better than the people who are the union. Also, unions have the same governing problems as other big organizations. Leaderships that do things based on their personal opinions rather than looking for what’s best for members, the majority doesn’t care about the needs of the minorities, lack of transparency. Many unions aim for a democratic structure, but fall into the same traps as many political systems: low voter turnout, weird coalitations, corruption.

      So, what can you do as a union member? You can go together with your co-workers and protest against the pro violence propaganda from whoever is in charge. If the local leadership doesn’t care, you can turn to the regional office, or the national office. You can also check the bylaws to see if there is something in there that can help you get rid of the people who think it’s okay to demand you to accept violence at work. If your union has elections, you can help the campaign of candidates you believe in, or do general voter outreach.

      If nothing helps, you can form (or join) another, competing union.

      1. Koala dreams*

        I wanted to add, in a functional union, you could file a grievance about having to witness violence at work and having to continue to work alongside the perpetrator. From your description, it doesn’t sound practical in your union. I’m so sorry!

        1. Arbitration-n-Unions*

          No, unfortunately, that’s not going to happen here with our steward. It’s an interesting idea though. Though it’s strange to essentially file a grievance where the solution would result in a grievance. Part of that is that it just sounds like make work for the union. The solution to the union supporting a violent person is to give the union more business?

          I hadn’t considered a competing union. I’m not sure I’m interested in taking on that challenge right now, but …honestly, I’m a fan of new unions far, far more than long-entrenched unions, at least from what I’ve seen here and elsewhere. New unions do seem to represent the employee’s best interest, entrenched ones fade from their point. So it’s a really good suggestion.

          1. Koala dreams*

            It would be a way to push back, if nothing else. To be honest, my union is very much a fan of trying to solve things by talking them over before filing a grievance in general, but workplace safety is considered rather serious.

            It’s true that it’s hard to join a competing union, you will get both the management and the first union against you, and management would probably try to add fuel to the fire so that they can say that any problems in because of the competing unions. Forming a new union would create similar challenges. That’s why most of my suggestions are about how to push back from inside the union.

      2. Littorally*

        Unions are made of people, and they are not better than the people who are the union.

        This! Unionizing is a powerful tool that has accomplished a lot of good for many people. However, that doesn’t mean that unions are infallable or always acting on the side of good.

    6. Anon for this*

      I can’t speak to your situation, but as a former member of a union I can tell you that usually the union officials are all about protecting the union contract. So bad employee does bad thing, but the employer doesn’t follow the agreed steps in the contract in disciplining/firing the employee. So the union goes to the mat for bad employee. (But really for the required steps in the contract.) Because the required steps stop the employer from firing the good employee to make room for his nephew or for other bogus reasons. If they allow the employer to blow through the required steps for bad employee, they are not on solid ground in requiring them for good employee.

      I’m really sorry that happened to you, and I hope the arbitration goes the right way.

      1. Observer*

        Please. I know that that does happen. But, there also need to be reasonable exceptions. People attacking others is one of those exceptions. So is doing things that a reasonable person should know would endanger others, theft, etc.

        When a union goes to bat for someone whose behavior is that egregious, it’s not about protecting workers or a fair process. It would be different if the person were just not good at their job and their boss didn’t bother to follow the process because “it’s too much trouble”. Yes, it may be irksome, but the process is there for a reason. But when it comes to something like this it’s like the airline crew that wouldn’t start evacuating a place DESPITE SEEING SMOKE COMING FROM THE TAIL till they got permission from the Captain. In both cases, being too hung up on “the process” is stupid (and dangerous.)

        1. Arbitration-n-Unions*

          Yeah, this is what bothers me. I think a lot of this is just that because of the privacy of the hearing I won’t know for sure unless he starts showing up at work again. So every day I come in I have this super high strung tension until I walk past his desk and see he’s not there. Every day for potentially a year. Because it took a year to get here in the first place.

          And I don’t get to know anything. So if he gets fired and I could relax I won’t be told because it’s a violation. And I won’t get a warning or heads up if he’s going to come back. I am going to have to rely on rumors and hoping that someone is willing to gossip about it for my safety. That’s not ok.

          Process is all well and good, but process, in this case, puts people at risk. I assume his boss will have to know if he comes back because of the sheer processing of paperwork. But I don’t have a “reason” to know so I’ll be totally blindsided. And if someone (like his boss) were to tell me that would be a violation of the contract rules so they can’t do that.

    7. pancakes*

      The post about unions was an open post and there was a pretty wide range of responses, including some that were anti-union, and some with horror stories about unions. I don’t think it’s helpful or persuasive to mischaracterize it.

      There are a lot of people in union organizing who want police unions out of the AFL-CIO, and out of labor organizing in general due to their poor history of leadership regarding violence. There’s a lot of recent reporting on this topic, and a lot of opinion pieces about it from various perspectives. Reading up on this issue would almost certainly be a lot more helpful than making sweeping and inaccurate statements about unions supporting violence. If the leaders of your local union support violence, ousting them and replacing them with leaders who don’t is likely to be much more effective than denigrating unions in general.

    8. Observer*

      It really would help if you stat things as they are, not just making stuff up and lashing up. The post and discussion was not about how unions are perfect and solve all problems. But, unfortunately, sometimes they really are the best option and accomplish important things.

      And, yes, some unions stink. That’s a discussion that’s come up as well. Unions should NOT defend people who physically attack others at work. I hope that your management is competent and strong enough to prove that physically attacking people is an exception to the normal warning rules.

    9. Union Maid plus*

      I have been on both sides and feel your stress.
      I was the union representative of my job class on my old job. My class was not the big one therefore I did have to fight for every crumb and make sure the contract terms applied not only to the main class but also us.
      It was horrible, stressful, exhausting, and thankless.

      I recently had an experience as a manager. My union report did not do her job. Lied constantly. Blamed others. There was step discipline/PIP that lasted a year and half while she also filed unwarranted grievances against me. The whole process was a part-time job of documentation, interviews, investigations with Union representatives sitting at the table cross examining every bit of communication, managerial style, coaching down to my tone when I asked if she had completed a task. I was called out for my “violent communication.’ and had to produce witnesses to refute that.
      It is only reading this thread that I understood the union was protecting the process not this person. I do believe in the need for union to protect the worker but to this day I see the shop steward in meetings and am dying to ask her what she was thinking about during all those excruciating meetings.

    10. What the What*

      I was in a union once where a guy groped a female coworker and then when she rejected his advances, he called her a w—-. There was a witness. He was fired. The union fought for him on the same kind of grounds as your case: He should have been warned not to grope his coworkers; He was never given sexual harassment training; It was never made clear that he wasn’t allowed to call his coworker a w—-; the manager didn’t give him three warnings.

      He was brought back with back pay. His behavior actually got worse because now he knew the union would defend him. Most of the female staff at his location quit in the next couple of months. Really soured me on unions, to be honest.

  101. Lucy P*

    Good news. I worked several hours, at the time without pay, while the entire staff was furloughed earlier this year. This was mostly for the PPP application and prepping the office for everyone to return. After a bit of pushing, I got reimbursed in full for my hours, this week.

    1. T3*

      That is great news, I’m happy that came through for you, and that your time and labor were compensated!!!

  102. HannahS*

    I’m frustrated that my new job is requiring hours and hours of unpaid work from me before I even start. My start date is July 2nd. I’m being sent multiple emails literally daily, for about six weeks in advance of my start date. On top of the usual get-us-your-documents-for-payroll, I’ve had to spend HOURS doing training modules. And a full day orientation, which was originally going to require being present in person, two weeks before the job starts. And more hours of training modules, all due before I start working there. And could I come in before my start date to get my security badge? And get a tour of the facility? And to shadow someone for half a day?

    It frustrates me. Resident docs make higher than the average income, but when you tally the hours, we get paid below minimum wage, and are exempt from the laws requiring it. I also resent that I have to pay the university $800 for the privilege of registering to work there, before receiving my first paycheck.

    I am incredibly lucky to get to do what I love. And I don’t mind working late nights and pitching in and doing more than my share. I also don’t mind doing educational modules once my contract starts. But I don’t work for them yet!

    1. Picard*

      Simply reply that its not possible but you will be happy to do XYZ as soon as your start date of July 2.

      1. LGC*

        She’s a doctor, though – can she do that without torpedoing this job? Plus, she’s a resident, so she’s early in her career.

  103. Derivative Poster*

    How do you schedule learning needed to “stay current” in your field? Do you do it on the clock or on your own time? How much time do you spend on it?

    I’m not talking about the formal continuing education required in some fields, but about learning new technologies, reading about trends, etc. I’m struggling to figure out how to prioritize this and wondering what other people do.

    1. Buttons*

      I do a bit of both. My company is really big on development it is part of our culture and is encouraged and paid for. So I often will schedule a webinar or look for an article read during my regular hours. If I am going to attend an online webinar or back before the pandemic, attend a learning event through my professional organization I would put it on my calendar. I think if you aren’t doing after hours or on the weekends it may mean you need to schedule a certain amount of time during the week. Maybe is the first hour of your day on Mondays when things haven’t picked up yet. I think it is incredibly important to stay current, especially as we get older. Make yourself a priority :)

      1. Derivative Poster*

        That’s a good point. My company also encourages development so it would probably be fine to do more of it during the day. My hang-ups about it are mostly self-imposed. Devoting a particular time to it each week is a great idea!

    2. Picard*

      I’m required by licensing standards to do at least 40 hours of CPE per year. I mostly fit it in over lunch breaks or slow days at work.

    3. Alex*

      I do it on my own time. Or, well, I am salaried so there isn’t really any difference between my own time and not my own. But I do spend a lot of weekends and evenings on it.

  104. CynthiaB*

    Somewhere along the way, I made a mistake at work. I’d love to be able to own this mistake, but I have no idea what it was or when it happened. According to my boss, his boss likes to “test” people and if you don’t pass this test then the big boss is done with you. There is no way back. The catch is, you don’t know what the test is, when (or if) it will happen or what it will be about.

    Since my failure of said test, I have been told that I don’t add value to the team and I make no contributions to help the team. Each time I try to take on something or work with someone, I’m told not to because it would require too much context for me to be able to help. I’m not an idiot. I have 25 years of experience in my field. In my 25 years, I have never had a bad performance review and have certainly never been put on a performance improvement plan – until this team. I have been with the company for 6 years and with this team for just over a year. I have been looking internally for a different role, but I am getting turned down.

    I have started looking externally, but I’m really angry by what has happened. I was a great path with this company until I moved to this team. Some of my colleagues have suggested I should contact HR, but I’m not even sure what I would say. I’m having to document every breath I take and what percentage of my capacity it takes. If my capacity is not at least 100%, it’s not enough. I’m not an hourly worker.

    My fear is that I’m not going to find another job before they decide to fire me from this one.

    1. tangerineRose*

      Would it work to tell your boss that you understand that the big boss wants you to leave, so you’re looking, but can you stay until you find something? That might be an easier way out. I’m sorry the big boss is such a jerk.

      1. irene adler*

        Tread carefully. That might be the very thing management will use to lay off CynthiaB.

    2. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

      I kind of think you should go to HR. I’m very leery of HR normally, but in this case, you have little to lose. It sounds like your boss doesn’t have your back and you might be on the fast track to being fired (I’m really sorry, I can’t imagine how frustrating this must be).

      I think “I’ve been put on a performance improvement plan and am being denied work opportunities, and I’m not sure what I did wrong. Can we discuss what happened and what I can do?” is a reasonable question to ask. I might well be wrong, but I don’t see a downside considering the situation. Wouldn’t HR have had to sign off on the PIP?

      1. StellaBella*

        This wording is great. Your grand boss is a passive aggressive, poor communicator who is also an ass, IMNSHO. Who does this? How will you ever know what you did wrong? Is your grand boss fond of spray tans by chance? Because this is sociopathic.

    3. Nicki Name*

      If you were put on a PIP, what does it say? Or were you just told there’s a PIP and what’s getting documented, but not what it specifically says you need to improve?

      If you go to HR, say, “I’m being punished for something but I’m not allowed to know what it is.”

      Your managers are failing at managing.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Sounds like an unofficial PIP–so it’s like fighting with fog. Not fair at all, and you can’t win. Maybe one sit-down with HR to lay out that you’re sidelined, clearly did something wrong, would love to own it/fix it–but no one will tell you what you did. This is probably a pattern there. Maybe no one has raised it to HR, but if they have, and you’re the nth time they’re hearing it? It could go well for you. It’s already going really bad so why not.

        1. CynthiaB*

          It is an unofficial PIP, but if they aren’t happy with the results or if I miss something, I will be terminated. Since I completed my status report for last week and my capacity was only 90%, it made for a confrontational 1 on 1 with my manager when I asked for clarification. There already seems to be so much that I can’t do “right”.

          I know this is a no win situation for me, and I will have a lot to say on my exit interview. I have had several interviews over the last two weeks and in the last two days my email and voicemail has exploded. I’m hopeful I will get something soon so I can quit before getting fired.

          I need to get my thoughts together on what I will say, but I do like what I’ve read here, and I appreciate all the support and advice.

    4. Buttons*

      This is one of the worst things I have heard anyone being put through. This is terrible. Go to HR about the “test” and feeling like you are being shut out. It won’t do much good, unless there have been other complaints from people about the same thing. Does your company do an employee engagement survey? If so, eviscerate that boss. It also sounds like he is preventing you from getting an internal job- speak to HR about that too.
      Focus your energy on external postings. Good luck.

    5. blepkitty*

      This is absolutely awful, and I’m sorry you’re going through it.

      I think others have covered everything else, so I’m just going to add that it sounds like you were at the company for five years before this team. If your performance reviews were good then, I think that gives you a strong case to make with HR that you haven’t been given a fair chance.

    6. irene adler*

      I’ll bet you are angry.

      I may be 100% off-base here, but this sounds to me like they are trying to drive you out.
      Why would they do this? My take: you wrote that you have 25 years experience. That means that you are probably over 40? Maybe your paycheck is larger than many of your co-workers?

      I would find out how truthful this “test” story is that your boss told you about. If it were true, boss should have your back on these things. Prepare you for such “tests” and go to bat for you with the big boss over this “test” treatment. HR might be able to shed some light on the veracity of this “test” story.

      Are there any co-workers who have experienced this “test” ? Or is your boss laying the ground work to justify poor treatment of you?
      Suggest ramping up the job search pronto!

    7. Koala dreams*

      That sounds more like bullying or hazing than you doing something wrong. I agree that it might be good to go to HR, both to prove that you’re willing to cooperate and to flag that there’s a problem.

      Good luck with your job search!

    8. Observer*

      Talk to HR and see if you can get transferred out of that team.

      GrandBoss sounds like a royal idiot and jerk. How is the company allowing this kind of nonsense to go on? Hidden random “tests” that can make or break a person in the company? That’s utter power tripping incompetence.

    9. Sir Lena Clare*

      Your boss is an absolute sociopath.
      Go to HR!
      And I hope you find another job soon.

  106. annonaTrain*

    OK, so let’s say I work as an independent contractor (in software). The person I generally work for has insurance that covers subcontractors like me, plus he knows stuff I don’t (stuff that’s not in my area of expertise but is extremely useful), plus a lot of the work I do is built off of programs he owns. (I’ve read AAM info about independent contractors, and I qualify.)

    So I want to set LinkedIn, Facebook to talk about this new work, but if possible, I’d rather prospective customers contact him, not me, or at least that they know they will generally work with both of us (so they understand what’s going on). Any ideas on how to phrase this?

  107. blepkitty*

    Hi. This is more of a rant than anything else, but my coworker Jane has sent back something I wrote three times telling me to reread the whole thing for xyz thing each time (often something unhelpful, like looking for jargon; I wrote the whole thing intending to avoid jargon! I’m not stupid!), once without even reading my responses to her comments on the previous version. She’s acted the whole time like I’ve never written this type of material before in my life, when I have.

    I just tried to communicate to my boss that this is not a constructive way to do this, and my boss asked if I didn’t understand what my coworker was saying. Now I have a meeting on Monday with my boss, which I don’t expect to go well, because apparently she sees nothing wrong with having someone edit her own document three times for things that would be better pointed out by a fresh set of eyes. I’m also trying to communicate that my coworker’s constant training sessions on things I already know how to do are demeaning.

    Wish me well. The job market sucks.

    1. CM*

      Good luck. If I were you, I’d bring along a printed email thread that shows exactly what you’re talking about, or some other documented evidence so your boss doesn’t dismiss this as a personality conflict or defensiveness on your part. I’d also focus on wasted time and productivity rather than feeling demeaned, because your boss is likely to be more receptive to arguments about how this hurts the business rather than how it affects you personally.

      1. blepkitty*

        Thanks. I know I shouldn’t focus on feeling demeaned, but frankly speaking, I need to know if my boss is going to take this seriously or not. If she’s not, it’s time for me to look out for myself and find another job.

        1. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

          I’ve been in almost exactly your shoes and it’s rough. But for a moment here I’m going to try to step into your manager’s shoes because I’m a bit concerned that you’re going to burn through your political capital:

          (a) Straight off the mark, you’re putting me in a really complicated position when you approach this as a matter of feeling demeaned versus as an efficiency and professional judgement issue.

          (b) I’m going to wonder if and how you’ve directly addressed this with Jane, because my first line of defense as a manager is to hold you accountable for managing your own relationships and owning your professional judgement. As much as I understand that it can feel like you’re doing something wrong or risking way too much political capital when you’re setting boundaries with a colleague, I also don’t want to encourage someone to borrow my authority to handle a situation like this with a peer except in extreme circumstances.

          Further to that point, if the issue is that you don’t feel comfortable gently pushing back against Jane yourself because you’re unsure of how graciously she’ll react, that’s kind of on you. I can’t shield you from the consequences of how you want to set boundaries with your colleagues. Is Jane possible the kind of person who might see you as being ungrateful and arrogant if you don’t accept all her edits? Possibly. But it’s not a managerial problem unless you can’t work together.

          (c) If Jane does this to everyone, including your manager (and Janes are often like this), I’m going to take that into consideration if someone is telling me that they feel personally affected by Jane’s style. If I know that Jane is that way because of being awkward and a poor communicator rather than having bad motivations, y’know…some people are like that and all I can do is coach them.

          (d) The other thing that I might keep in my back pocket is coaching Jane about how to better support other people’s autonomy on the team, but that’s not something I’ll necessarily tell you about, because discretion when it comes to how I coach my other direct reports is important.

          Really, look, I know how frustrating this is. But something I learned very slowly and frustratingly is that good managers who want to avoid stirring the pot are probably going to encourage employees to make good-faith attempts to solve these issues on their own. Sometimes solving means diffusing your feelings of being demeaned by not only being assertive, but also not assuming malice when you’re dealing with certain personalities. You probably don’t need to jump ship to look out for yourself.

          1. blepkitty*

            Oh, I’ve already been through some of this with my boss, and I’ve been trying for weeks to get through to Jane using my boss’s previous suggestions. They haven’t worked.

            Part of my goal here is to clarify with my boss exactly how she envisions my working relationship with Jane, because I can’t tell if I’m supposed to be Jane’s underling or if she’s just treating me that way–and the same thing with whether her word is law when it comes to final products. So it’s hard for me to tell exactly how much leeway I have to put my foot down about things. But also, it’s pretty clear by now that Jane isn’t listening to me, and I need some support from someone she will listen to. I don’t care if it happens without my knowledge, so long as Jane’s behavior changes.

            This is a very close working relationship, with Jane and I being the only two people in our company who do what we do full-time, and I’m going through at least one upsetting interaction with Jane per week, usually more. My mental health is suffering, so if things aren’t going to change, I need to dust off my resume.

            1. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

              Totally didn’t mean to pile on, thank you for giving some backstory – that sucks that none of the low-hanging fruit has solved this. This sounds a bit more like my situation, except that my Jane and I were the only two in our department with similar roles, and we previously worked in a department where several of us were doing the same thing so there was less pressure to defer to her.

              It’s iffy that it’s not clear to you whether Jane is your supervisor or not, or is training you. And I’m not saying that’s on you, but instead your manager. If it’s a situation where you’re in fact expected to be equals but she has more experience (either in terms of overall career length or time at your company), then you have a different problem. Even if your boss believes you do have a lot of leeway and trusts your professional judgement, they can’t necessarily make Jane comfortable with you exercising that leeway, but the good news is that you might be able to sidestep Jane.

              If this helps at all, in my situation, my manager didn’t *need* me to get Jane’s buy-in on most things. So the real problem was that I was passing my work by Jane just to appease her, except that kept opening difficult cans of worms, so I just stopped seeking her direct involvement in some projects. When I eventually gave myself permission to stop doing that, she was clearly irked for a while, but eventually stopped caring. It was entirely at odds with what I (and probably Jane) thought being a good team player meant, but keeping my work at arms-length from her actually improved our relationship a lot. Besides, someone like Jane is often happiest working completely independently because they know they have full control over a process.

              I get it, either way it’s rough on one’s mental health. Even choosing to be more assertive meant that I was constantly beating myself up, thinking that wanting a degree of autonomy over my work somehow makes me a b**** or defensive. I really struggled to believe that wanting to exercise my professional judgement doesn’t mean that I’m not open to learning from others, which…no. Remember that Jane’s trouble with give-and-take (whether it’s intentional or not) means that shes the one who’s taking away her own privilege to be welcomed into a collaborative environment.

  108. Breastmeeting*

    I’ll be going back to work soon, after 14 weeks of maternity leave. In the before times, the plan was to send him to daycare and pump while I was at work. Now, he’ll be home (with our 3yo and our Au Pair) and I’ll need to breastfeed instead (he’s not great with the bottle).

    Is this crazy? If you were my manager what would you think? I have a lot of meetings during the day, and spend a lot of time working with people (I’m a project manager) but what if I block off the time in my calendar, like I did for pumping?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      you’re talking taking breastfeeding breaks (instead of pumping breaks) while you’re working at home and your au pair takes primary care of the munchkins, yeah? I think you’d be fine, if you can legit schedule breastfeeding the same way you could do pumping. (I’ve never done either, so I have no idea how feasible that is.)

      If you’ll be at work as in, at an office, I’m not sure how the scenario you’re describing would work.

      1. Breastmeeting*

        Whoops I forgot to mention that I’m working from home for the foreseeable future. It’s become so normal these days that I forgot people even went to offices!

    2. TCO*

      I don’t really see how breastfeeding and pumping are different, from the perspective of your boss/workplace, since you’re working from home. Nothing about it seems crazy to me at all, and any reasonable manager would not care exactly how you’re feeding your baby. Are you thinking that there could be a different kind of impact on your work if your baby needs to be breastfed on a less predictable schedule than you might be able to have if you were pumping instead? (And if so, and your baby’s needs overlap with a scheduled meeting, can you just feed your baby while you’re on a call with the camera off?)

      1. Senor Montoya*

        Breastfeeding and pumping are different because you can schedule pumping but you cannot be sure baby will be ready and willing to nurse on schedule. Depends on the child of course. And even the most schedule-compliant child can suddenly and unexpectedly and inconveniently become un-compliant.

        Also, the pump tends to be faster and more efficient than baby, less likely to make a mess, and less likely to make you feel very very sleepy.

        Speaking from experience.

    3. Natalie*

      If you can block it off on your calendar definitely go that route. If not, or he has a cluster feeding day or something, it seems like it shouldn’t be that disruptive to feed him while working. My understanding is that babies that age can feed pretty quickly. If you feel uncomfortable or think it will distract your coworkers you can always turn off your camera or angle it to be well above his head.

    4. Observer*

      Sounds reasonable to me.

      Just block our the most likely nursing times so you don’t have video meetings during that time.

  109. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Something kind of funny came up this week. I posted a few weeks ago about a position I was really excited about, but I heard nothing for about two weeks. Followed up with the recruiter who was very nice and responded immediately but had no further info. Then early this week– 10 days after our last communication– she sent me a note saying the position seemed to be dead, the hiring manager wasn’t responding, she was sorry and didn’t want to leave me hanging. I thanked her. The next day, huzzah! Hiring manager is back on board! Let’s get moving! Then the recruiter kept updating me. And updating. Every day an email. Most of the time, she had nothing to tell me, but she wanted me to know what was going on. At one point I got a little annoyed because I didn’t want an update unless/until she had real information… but I reminded myself that recruiters and hiring managers ghost people far too often and I should thank my lucky dang stars I have a recruiter who over-communicates. THEY EXIST.

    Interview is next week, wish me luck!

  110. T3*

    So I’m handing in my two weeks notice at my job soon and more or less have a set plan for my resignation letter and stock responses about why I’m leaving but I’m feeling a bit tripped up on how to formally share the news with my team.

    I check in with my supervisor multiple times a week for different meetings, one of them being our team meeting, which is really the only chance I get to check in with my boss. I’m planning to announce my departure on a day where I normally don’t check-in with folks and am wondering if I should set-up a meeting or call to let them know or delay sharing the news for a day where I do meet with them.

    Should this convo happen with both parties at once? In my first job I just told my supervisor and then I had a follow-up meeting with my boss. In my second job I told HR and my boss I was leaving (this was a very specific situation) and then my boss shared the news with my supervisor. Am I overthinking this?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Unless your boss is unusually rigid and hierarchy-oriented, you should be fine to tell them both at the same time. If you think your boss would be highly offended, then talk to her first and then your supervisor immediately after – but most people in that situation would be fine hearing the news together.

      Good luck in your new position!

      1. T3*

        Thank you! No new position yet, but I’m beginning to interview again and can’t wait to be done with this place.

  111. Choggy*

    So had a meeting with my manager and the team who provides IT support for the company. We were all asked if we felt comfortable going into our company offices (they are not officially open, but some of our users go in and work there anyway, though they REALLY don’t have to!). We all responded with a resounding No! as the Gov of our state has said, if you can work from home do so, and so we have been, and are doing it very well. As it turns out, it was the head of our dept who wanted my manager to ask because he thinks we should be able to do our site visits, and assist with hardware moves, though no one else is being asked to go in. These are moves for the Executive Office, so our President, and other VPs/Directors who are going into one location instead of working from home. They keep saying to stay safe, stay home, but when it comes to doing something for this group, our dept head thinks it’s not a big deal for us to do whatever is necessary. Like we are on some different level than the other employees in the company and so our health and concerns matter less. Really pissed me off to no end.

  112. StellaBella*

    I got a new gig! It is 8 months long, and starts on 1 July. Working with folks I know, doing a cover for a maternity leave (6.5 months, a month at the start is for training, and then 2 weeks at end is for the hand back.). I am so excited! My last contract finished at end of March so am thrilled to have work managing some cool projects until 1 March 21. I will be glad to be saving money again. :)

  113. Wages and hours*

    Can anyone recommend a labor lawyer or firm in NYC for a quick consult on an issue of a formally signed wage increase agreement not being honored/processed by my employer? Raise was prior to Covid but now they don’t want to honor it because it happened just before the shirt hit the fan.

  114. StellaBella*

    I have a GREAT /POSITIVE HR RECRUITING story to share. I have been applying for a lot of gigs and have had 4 interviews in the past 2 months. One gig I applied for is with a research group in my country (in Europe). The sent a very polite email acknowledging receipt of my app on the day I mailed it in, then, 3 days later sent a very polite rejection letter – but this was the same day I accepted the offer for the gig I noted in a comment above. So, I thanked them for the polite rejection and shared that I had accepted another offer – and said that I thought whoever they hired would be lucky because of how polite and responsive their recruiting team was – they wrote back, thanked me and wished me luck! I genuinely got a terrific feeling from this team and I will keep an eye out for other gigs there. :)

  115. Art3mis*

    My husband has been furloughed since mid March. Some folks have been brought back, but the company has declared bankruptcy and they may not recover. He has a second interview with another company next week. If he gets the job should he give two weeks notice at his old company? He’s not been getting any pay, but they have been paying for his health insurance.

    1. irene adler*

      Keep the health insurance going until he’s settled into the new job-and the health insurance can be obtained via the new job.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      No need for two weeks notice. He’s not working now; they’re not paying him now. He’s not actually employed by them.

  116. Syfygeek*

    I have to write a Procedures/Policy document because my people won’t follow directions. I’ve been tasked with this from my boss who knows they don’t follow directions.

    I need it to be clear, concise, and not sound like I consider them BEC. It’s about expecting to be reimbursed for unapproved purchases- actually it’s about making the purchase without asking for approval first. The purchases are needed because they didn’t plan ahead and let me know to order it. Any suggestions on how to start? Or find examples?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      First, lay out the process for asking you (or whomever) to order the thing.
      Then, put a section in that if the thing is needed on an emergency basis, they must first obtain written approval from manager (or whomever), and said written approval must be attached to the invoice when it’s submitted for reimbursement, or it will be denied. Then, actually deny it.

      But also, you’ve got a bigger issue. You shouldn’t have people buying stuff without approval. If it’s a performance issue, the solution is effective management, including PIPs or whatever consequences are appropriate. If it’s a process issue (ie, they can’t be reasonably expected to know in advance what specific things will be required), then address it from that standpoint. Maybe the process needs to change so that they can know what will be needed. Maybe it’s a bit of both. A procedure manual alone isn’t going to solve these.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Start by separating the policy from the procedure. The policy describes what you need them to do, and the procedure is how to do it.

      Policy: All purchases must be approved by Syfygeek in advance. Purchases not previously approved may not be eligible for reimbursement. (Or whatever the consequence is – maybe it takes you longer to process the reimbursement?)

      Procedure: Fill out the Purchase Request Form and submit it to Syfygeek at least 48 hours ahead of planned purchase. Syfygeek will notify you by email if your purchase is approved. When you have completed the purchase, submit the receipt to Syfygeek for reimbursement. You will be reimbursed (in cash, on your next paycheque, etc) within 30 days (or whatever time frame.)

      That’s all there is to it! Tell them what you want them to do, and how you want them to do it, in plain language. If you’re feeling BEC about it, wait a few days until you can write about it more neutrally.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      It sounds like this sort of document should have been written long ago. I’d definitely ask a few people to review a draft, since a number of people will be using it as guidance and different minds will see different areas for improving clarity, specificity, etc. Keep the larger goal in mind- having it in writing and available to staff will make the process easier on everyone!

    4. Chronic Overthinker*

      I write SOP (standard operating procedures) for my staff all the time. For me it’s bet to break it down step by step using a numbering system. It won’t be a BEC issue as it applies to everyone and then everyone will be doing it the same way to increase efficiency and eliminate/lessen errors.

  117. Koala dreams*

    I’m looking for tips on reading about the discrimination women of colour face in hiring situations. I’ve read about experiments where resumes with ethnic* men’s names were less likely to be chosen for interviews compared to majority men’s names, and similar experiments comparing (majority) men and women, but somehow I’ve missed anything about women of colour. Academic articles are too hard to read for me since English is not my first language, but pop science articles and blog posts are okay. I’m interested in information about any countries/parts of the world.

    *if anybody has a better term than “ethnic”, please share!

    1. Picard*

      Maybe some of these will help?

      https://hbr.org/2017/10/hiring-discrimination-against-black-americans-hasnt-declined-in-25-years
      https://nwlc.org/blog/racial-bias-in-hiring-practices-leave-women-of-color-behind/
      https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/reports/2019/12/05/478150/african-americans-face-systematic-obstacles-getting-good-jobs/
      https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/06/07/new-study-finds-discrimination-against-women-and-racial-minorities-hiring-sciences

      I dont know if those are too scientific for your reading comprehension? I used the following terms to Google:
      hiring discrimination for women of color

      If you reverse the terms, you get more focused articles on women of color:

      https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/news/2019/08/22/473775/racism-sexism-combine-shortchange-working-black-women/
      https://www.epi.org/blog/black-womens-labor-market-history-reveals-deep-seated-race-and-gender-discrimination/
      https://hbr.org/2019/03/women-of-color-get-less-support-at-work-heres-how-managers-can-change-that

      1. Koala dreams*

        Thank you so much! Some of the articles are a bit difficult to follow, but I’ll try.

  118. Vendelle*

    For people who are in countries where contracts are a thing: how much time do you take to peruse and consider the offer/contract before signing?

    I was recently offered a job and I want to accept, but our contract signing meeting is next Tuesday and I haven’t seen a contract yet. I have just been informed I certainly won’t get it this weekend and to me that’s cutting it rather fine, but maybe my feelings are off in this? I like some time to think of questions before the meeting, which is why I requested a draft of the contract earlier in the week.

    1. Koala dreams*

      My last contract I just read it through, I think. However I would recommend at least a day, and preferably a couple of days, to read it through and maybe call the local union if that’s a thing where you work. I agree that if they give it to you on Monday and expect you to sign it on Tuesday, that’s rather short time. I suggest you to call them on Monday and ask for the meeting to be changed to a later day, or go to the meeting and say that you won’t sign it until you had a change to read it through and think it over.

    2. Jessi*

      You should be given enough time to seek legal council, should you so choose. I never have but I like at least enough time to read through it, ensure I understand/ have any questions answered, sleep on it and am happy with it the next day.

      Remember that a contract should protect BOTH parties, and usually can’t sign away any rights you have by law in your country

    3. PX*

      Hmm. I’ve had two different experiences in different countries. One gave me a week between receiving the contract to signing (and it was actually longer than that as we went back and forth for some time as I wanted clarification on various issues. The company were very relaxed and didn’t pressure me at all in terms of signing it).

      The other was my first job out of uni. I think there the expectation was to sign immediately, but I also had the chance to sit and walk through it in detail and ask for any clarifications at the time. If I’d really wanted to I could probably have requested a delay between getting it and signing.

      So I would say your scenario doesn’t sound ideal, but go into the meeting ready to ask questions and see if they will allow you to leave without signing I’d say.

  119. Overreacting?*

    I’m not sure if this will be seen by anyone this late but I am struggling immensely due to poor word choice in an email causing massive negative confusion. Unfortunately, the reply copied people all the way up the chain and though I clarified and apologized…. it had major repercussions and bad visibility. My boss is out and I’m positively sick over it. I feel awful at my careless phrasing and the consequences. I’m usually more level headed but I’m gutted at what a massive issue it turned into, despite already looping in some senior team members and making the necessary adjustments. I know I can’t do anything further and I just need to learn from it and own it but, my emotions are still just an absolute wreck over it.

    Has anyone just not been able to control a disproportionate emotional reaction to something work related? This is…Bad, but not cry for hours bad and I can’t seem to get over it.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Oh, that’s the worst! I hate when I do that, it’s like a huge punch in the gut.

      Go ahead and feel your feelings! You made a mistake, and there were consequences – of course you’re going to feel bad about that. How soon are you off work? It sometimes helps to plan your crying – tell yourself you’re not going to cry about it now, but so you’re going to have a good cry as soon as you’ve logged off for the day. Then do that. Journalling is good too. Write everything down, including what you did and the consequences, and also how awful you feel about it and what you’re going to do to prevent it from happening again. Keep your writing as a reminder if you want, or just write it all out and then burn it.

      Honestly, crying for hours is not a disproportionate reaction, especially with Covid and all the other stresses that we’re experiencing these days. It’s possible that you needed a good cry anyway, and this is just the specific event that triggered it. If you’re off work this weekend, do whatever you need to take care of yourself – do something creative if that’s your jam, or get some exercise or a bath or whatever makes you feel good. It’ll be okay. <3

      1. Overreacting?*

        Thank you so much for the kind advice. Unfortunately, the crying boat has sailed, has been sailing all day (I’m working remotely).

        I think it’s exponentially harder as this is a newish job and my super amazing boss is off for the first time since I started and is copied on everything. For it all to go so badly while she’s away is just so disappointing.

        I really hope I can use this weekend to feel better but I’m already sick over Monday and every day until boss is back. It’s like a cloud over my head.

        1. valentine*

          If contacting boss seems inappropriate, there is your permission to set this aside until you can discuss it with her.

          Is it possible what you’re really upset about is something else, and your body seized this opportunity to cry it out?

          1. New Senior Manager*

            +1. I’m so sorry. Ive been here before and it felt awful and I carried a tremendous amount of shame about it for the first few weeks. Side note: Anonymous work surveys are not always… anonymous. What helped me: Get out into the fresh air as much as possible. This world is an amazing place and when we compare it to our current situation, the situation gets smaller and less personal. Before having that conversation with your boss, write out points you want to make. Don’t wing it. What went wrong. Apologize and state your mistake. Lay out plan for how it could have gone better and next time you will…Then ask her opinion on how you could have better handled. Talk it through, calmly, rationally, reasonably, and it will be done. Once done, do not bring it up or apologize about it again. It is gone. Move forward. Sending you all the best.

    2. Mediamaven*

      Listen. We all have those things that have happened to us. It feels catastrophic right now. But it’s probably not and it WILL pass. I’m really sorry that you have to handle this today but people will move on and three months, six months, a year from now it will be over. Please do not tear yourself up over it.

  120. Ugh*

    My boss is keeping notes on problem employees in an excel file to later add to their employee file. Its a list of performance issues. I noticed that it only includes POC. I noticed that he behaves differently with minorities but this is the closest to discrimination that i have seen that is so clearly obvious. Am i off base or does this look like discrimination? Im white and the other supervisor i work with is black and we both feel uncomfortable with it. Also the files are accessible to all employees if they looked hard enough for it

    2. blepkitty*

      Yeah, that looks bad.

      Also, why on earth would a manager keep a file containing performance issues where his employees could find it? That is not okay to begin with!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      That is bad. That doesn’t just look bad. Otherwise, I fully agree with the above.

    5. Observer*

      Go to HR. Go NOW. Do not pass Go.

      And if you can, make a copy of the file and how you found it. Because if HR doesn’t do something about it, I would seriously consider going to the EEOC.

    7. LGC*

      I’m with everyone else – it certainly looks like discrimination. I’d honestly bring up your discomfort and the fact that this needs to be addressed to the other supervisor you work with first – not because they’re Black, but because they’re another supervisor and it sounds like they’re your boss’s peer (or at least closer to their level), which probably outweighs your white privilege in this case. With everything you’ve said, even if it isn’t discrimination, it strongly looks like it is.

      (If I were a bit more chaotically minded, I would suggest dropping a dime on your boss to the rest of your coworkers.)

      The other thing I’m aghast at is that he’s writing this in a publicly accessible place! That’s nearly as bad as the discrimination, in my opinion – not that it’s okay for him to discriminate in private, but…he’s writing notes on employee performance (which in and of itself is okay) in places that employees themselves can access (which is very NOT okay).

      1. LGC*

        Okay, so – I just realized I misread a couple of things:

        – I assumed that the other supervisor was your boss’s peer, where it could be that you’re co-supervisors and your boss is writing about your employees.
        – I assumed that you hadn’t brought this up with the other supervisor, and…it kind of looks like you did.

        You probably should go to HR (and if your HR is garbage or nonexistent, I fully advocate discreetly giving the rest of the team a heads up), or at least asking the other supervisor to take the lead (if they’re senior to you).

  121. Qwertyuiop*

    My coworker “Jane” was asking about uploading info into our Teapot database. I thought she was just curious, so I explained the process. Well, it turns out she wants it to be done so that *she* doesn’t have to do it anymore. She then emails “Fergus” and “Emily” about it- saying they can just send their work to me and that I can upload it for them, instead of them entering it individually!

    I’m shocked! Jane didn’t run it by me first or anything. How should I proceed? I feel a bit blindsided by this and I’m not sure if my boss knows about this or not…

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I would ask your boss if this is a change that they want to see happen, and what would happen with the rest of your workload. If this is not something that they want to happen, then they can help you push back on it.

      You could also tell Jane that your workload doesn’t currently allow for entering in everyone else’s information for them, but (if you are indeed willing) you are happy to help if they are having problems.

      1. irene adler*

        Boss needs to be apprised.
        This will affect i.e. delay some of your other tasks. Is boss okay with that?
        And yeah, push back on Jane too. Can’t let her get the notion that you are okay with her assigning work tasks to you. Otherwise it may not end with this task.

        1. Qwertyuiop*

          Absolutely- I actually did push back. I said that boss would have to have knowledge of this, first of all, second, I wasn’t aware that the others would be brought into this as well. I’m swamped as it is. Plus, Jane has no authority over me. Why is she taking charge and saying this?

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Either it was a very big misunderstanding on her part, or she is the type of person that likes to pawn work off on other people, and hasn’t had a lot of pushback thus far.

            1. Qwertyuiop*

              I did ask them to my boss, but he is out of the office and said that we would discuss it when he returns.

              1. valentine*

                Is it too late to reply all and say the procedure is Jane enters it?

                By mentioning your boss, you’ve let Jane get a toehold. The worst-case scenario is she wins when Boss says it’s a great idea or it’s easier to make you do it because you won’t push back than it is to simply tell Jane no.

                In future (because there will be more of this, especially if Jane loses this round!), you can tell Jane no. You also know to say, “Why do you ask?” because she’s untrustworthy.

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I would email Fergus and Emily, copy Jane and your boss, and say, “Hi all. There seems to have been some incorrect information given regarding how to upload info into our database. Please know that you are responsible for uploading your own information. I am not available to maintain this information and cannot help you. Jane, I’m sorry for what must have been a miscommunication when you asked me about the database; I never indicated that I was available for these tasks. Please see me today about how to correct the information you gave out recently. Thank you.”

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      When you explained the process, did you explain a different process from what Fergus and Emily were doing before?

      In other words, were Fergus and Emily manually uploading, and you thought Jane was asking about manual uploads and then explained to her how manual uploads work? If so, you can just say “There’s been a misunderstanding. I don’t do uploads. I just explained how uploads work because you asked me how uploads work.” And if Fergus and Emily send you uploads, you can just send back a similar reply to those two.

      But if Fergus and Emily were doing manual uploads, and you were explaining that it’s possible to do an automated upload, you can have a follow-up to just explain that you aren’t suddenly responsible for uploads just because uploads can be automated, and maybe ask whether Fergus and Emily need to be trained on how to do automated uploads.

      1. Qwertyuiop*

        They enter stuff individually, when there is a batch upload. That’s part of their job, though. Plus, I’m swamped with other stuff right now. Otherwise they need to learn it and upload it themselves, I don’t know. I just feel shocked that she just said that I would help. I never said that. I don’t like the fact that she did that. Plus, why is she assigning stuff to me when she isn’t my boss. She made some remark, “This will save me a lot of time, but I don’t want to dump extra work on you.” Um… you just did?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Under ordinary circumstances, I would volunteer to train Emily and Fergus, but the fact Jane was already ready to dump this on you completely unprompted, I don’t think you should volunteer that. Stay as far away from this as possible.

  122. RagingADHD*

    Ugh.
    My husband works at a church, and one of the volunteers came in last week, worked all day in many different offices, interacted with just about every staff member, and refused to wear a mask.

    The volunteer woke up the next morning sick with flu-like symptoms, and went to get a covid test.

    We’re supposed to hear today or tomorrow whether it’s positive. And if so, the entire church staff has to quarantine for 2 weeks, per organization policy about known exposures.

    Leadership was pushing to restart in-person services this Sunday, despite our record-breaking case surge here locally. So it will be interesting to see if they hold to their policy when it means cancelling everything!

    1. Reba*

      Wow. Hope your spouse (and you!) and coworkers are ok. And I hope this is a reality check for the church!

      1. RagingADHD*

        Of course, I’m now paranoid that every allergy symptom is now covid, even though they’re exactly the same as Ive had for months, and that I have every year.

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      My city is not allowing volunteers to work at all, even with masks. I think that would be a good policy.

      1. Observer*

        Why? The problem here was not a volunteer per se. It was a person being an idiot and the organization not enforcing an appropriate policy. It would not have made a difference if the person were staff.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Yes, the fact that this was a volunteer is (mostly) irrelevant. Lack of policy enforcement is the real issue.

        3. Thankful for AAM*

          We are not allowing volunteers to limit the number of people we are exposed to, we have to be there, the volunteers don’t (actually, a significant number of us can do about 90% of our work from home but that is another story).

      2. RagingADHD*

        I agree, but we don’t have any control over that. Even requiring the volunteers to wear masks would be an improvement, especially since at least 3 of the fulltime staff are immunocompromised.

    3. MassMatt*

      If the volunteer refused to wear a mask and your organization was not ok with that then s/he should have been asked to leave.

      If your org/church WAS ok with it (and it sounds as though they probably are, given their desire to reopen despite skyrocketing infection rates in many areas of the country) then they bear responsibility.

      I don’t know why pandemic precautions are being politicized, it seems that many people are flouting common sense as some sort of slap at “the libs”, but sadly people are paying the price for stupidity. Lay down with dogs, don’t be surprised you wake up with fleas.

      1. WellRed*

        I don’t understand why they weren’t asked to leave. I also think churches that allowed gatherings when they aren’t allowed should bear the costs of testing.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I don’t know about this particular volunteer, but in this church as in many others, the most active volunteers are often also on the board and/or major donors.

          The senior staff can set policy for staff, but the ultimate deciders for policies governing the whole church are the board. So the staff’s choices are to deal with the board’s decisions as best they can, or quit.

          At least the health insurance is really good.

  123. lazy intellectual*

    I want to get a temperature check.

    Earlier this week, I saw a connection (a former coworker) post something on LinkedIn along the lines of “If you’ve recently been laid off and we’ve worked together/crossed paths…please get in touch with me on LinkedIn and let me know how I can help you.” And it goes on to list the ways they could help. I thought it was a pretty good idea and planned to draft my own version of the statement. The next day, I saw this status had exploded, and a lot of my connections had copy/pasted the status, like the chain Facebook statuses of chain emails of the days of yore.

    Anyway, my question is what do people think of this trend? Do people actually find them helpful/useful? I’m considering posting a modified version of it. I would eliminate the suggest to help connect people, because I’m not the most well connected person and don’t want to promise something I can’t deliver. Should I do this?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Couldn’t hurt. I would be specific about the kind of help you can offer, and perhaps the number of people you can help. That way you’re not dealing with requests that you may not be able to respond to, either because you don’t have the expertise or because every single person in your network decided to take you up on it. But if you’re able to help and also able to set some boundaries for yourself, I would say go for it!

  124. Sabine the Very Mean*

    Returning to work and life after COVID-19:

    I am wondering how to handle what I know will happen at my workplace and with certain friends in my social circle. I am introverted to the extreme. I love people, am social, but I need to be alone most of the time to feel energized. I have many coworkers who have been struggling with being alone so much and who cannot wait to see me and my colleagues again. They have been trying for virtual lunches and phone calls just to say Hi.

    However, I cannot be the person anyone goes to to socialize or spend time with or help fill the human void they have been experiencing. Being in an office takes so much out of me that I cannot socialize after work or during. I need silence and solitude.

    How can I best handle those who may want more from me than I am willing to offer? Please know I’m not asking for advice on how to get through how I’m feeling or how to socialize when I don’t want to. I am looking for how to say, “I’m sorry it was so hard for you” without agreeing to spend time with them myself.

    Thanks! Oh and Sabine is my cat–she’s mean, I am not.

    1. Annony*

      I have found the best way to protect my time is to offer an alternative I am comfortable with when I’m saying no. “Sorry, I can’t do a virtual lunch today. How about we catch up at a virtual happy hour next Friday?” Of course this works best if there is a time that you would be happy to socialize.

    2. Alex*

      However you handled these things pre-pandemic is fine.

      Them: OMG Want to eat lunch together/get drinks after work/connect at a weekend long ‘connect with coworkers’ nudist retreat!?

      You: No thanks, actually I was planning on catching up on some reading at my desk/planning to hit the gym/ramming a fork in my eye, but I hope you enjoy!

      Rinse and repeat, and things will go back to normal.

  125. AB*

    How do you decide to leave a good job?
    I have been at my current company for 2 years in September. It’s a wonderful company with the exceptions being that 1) the pay is a bit lower than I could get elsewhere (but I’m not grossly underpaid) and 2) despite having a “flexible” work policy, it’s not alllll that flexible (start/finish when you want but must be in for core hours 10-4:30, 1 hour lunch max, WFH once a week pre-COVID, anything outside of those needs to be OK’d by your manager; I’ve tried to encourage the company to loosen up on this multiple times with no luck). This is a professional position requiring advanced degrees/technical knowledge and often requires more than the minimum of 37.5 hours/week but work is fairly independent so I’ve always felt the rigid scheduling was a bit overkill. Other benefits are fairly standard for the industry/region. Aside from that, they company is really great, wonderful people, highly sought after by clients and job seekers, and incredibly supportive of its employees.

    I’ve been approached by a recruiter offering the same role at another firm but pays about 15% more, can be fully remote and you set your own hours completely. As my only real complaints about my current company are the pay and hours, this is tempting. But I for some reason am very hesitant to leave what is otherwise a really great company/people and potentially walk into another job with its own (possibly worse) issues that can be hard to identify ahead of time. Complicating things is that I’m due for a promotion in the next 6 months and my new salary would be right about the same as if I made this lateral move. So the promotion would require more responsibility and less flexibility than this external role.

    What kinda of things should I be thinking about as I try to make a decision? (Yes I know I can pursue both at the same time then decide, but I also don’t want to waste my/anyone’s time.) My industry is really stable so no concerns about moving jobs in the pandemic.

    1. quirkypants*

      For me, I’d ask the following questions:

      1. Will the job that lets you set your own hours, require lots of overtime? (They may say no, but are you really sure?) I’ve seen some places with really “flexible” policies have them partially because they know they suffer in other ways. Same for salary.
      2. How important is your relationship with co-workers? What if, while flexible, the other place is really toxic? Same with your relationship with your manager? Assuming you have a good one now, are you will take a gamble here?
      3. Assuming you’re interested in growth/future promotions, does one have a better chance of getting you where you want to be long-term?
      4. Is the content of the work as interesting or fulfilling?

      You know that leaving could be a gamble, so you have to weigh how much risk you are comfortable with.

      If I currently worked somewhere I was more or less happy at, I would consider leaving only if I was really confident that leaving would fix both the issues I have and reasonably sure I wouldn’t create new ones. If I were you, I’d probably explore the opportunity to learn more about it and do some research on the organization before deciding! It’s probably worth at least an interview or two but since you’re mostly happy, I’d ask lots of questions to learn as much as you can.

      1. AB*

        Thanks, this is really helpful! Re: overtime, I currently work anywhere between 3-10 hours of “overtime” a week, whereas the other company actually compensates you with extra vacation time for extra time worked. So if you work an extra half day in a given week, you get that time back as PTO.

        Good points about the new role potentially having other issues. I’ve seen some company survey results and satisfaction is 8.5/10 and retention is really high. But again, really hard to judge from the outside.

  126. oona*

    I’m sure this will get buried so I may post again next week, but hoping for some advice. In May I was promoted to team lead for my team. This promotion did not come with an immediate change in title or salary because my company only does official promotions and salary increases in July and December. Previous leads for my team did get promoted and did get salary adjustments during these time periods.

    Today we got the compensation policy for 2020. It says that anyone who received a salary increase for any reason in the past 12 months is ineligible for a raise this July. I received a tiny salary adjustment 7 months ago. So I will probably get promoted, but I will not be getting a raise.

    I am pretty angry about this, I would have rather forgone that tiny salary adjustment since apparently it’s going to cost me a more substantial raise. I would like to push back during the official review, which should be coming in the next few weeks.

    I have never pushed back on salary issues before and I’m a bit afraid to do so. I know my manager would be on my side and probably her manager as well, but I don’t know that they would be successful at convincing our COO to re-review my salary. He has I really, really like my job otherwise and I do not want to leave, but if I am not properly compensated for the significantly more challenging role I’ve been given, I will start looking.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That sucks, but having both your manager and her manager on your side is a good thing. The COO may not budge on this specifically, of course. Your manager and her manager may be able to figure out a workaround that gets you proper compensation and finds a loophole in the official rules. Definitely bring this up to your manager.

    2. BRR*

      Not knowing the numbers obviously, but can you propose you get a raise based on what you were earning before the salary adjustment?

    3. Beatrice*

      Have you heard from anyone who didn’t get a salary increase earlier, who is getting a raise now? Are you sure the raises they’re giving this time around are actually substantial?

    4. it happens*

      Hmmm, I would say that you are not getting a raise. You are getting a new position that happens to have a higher salary because it has more value to the company.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is the approach that might work best. You aren’t asking for a raise (usually merit based) but you would expect a salary adjustment commensurate with your new role/promotion. Those should be tracked as two separate things.

  127. Struggling College Professor*

    Hi, AAM, readers! I’m a long-time reader of this blog who’s spent virtually of my career as a college instructor. (I have a PhD in a humanities field and I’ve had steady full-time teaching work for the last decade in a super-competitive academic field but nothing tenure-track). Anyway, I feel like I’m on a sinking ship at my current university. My job is safe for at least this upcoming academic year, but the long-term budget projections here are not good, and it’s unlikely that I’ll be able to find another teaching job at another university. So I’m starting to explore a possible career change.

    So . . . any suggestions on what other industries I should look at or how I should proceed? A lot of people close to me have suggested corporate communication-type jobs based on my PhD subject, but when I did informational interviews about two years ago with people who worked in those industries, it didn’t seem like a good fit in terms of the skills they wanted or my job prospects for mid-career. I’ve visited a few websites aimed at academics looking to change careers and for the most part haven’t found them very helpful. It seems like it’s a bunch of consultants who charge a lot money to tell me things I already know, like “do informational interviews” and “have a LinkedIn page that lists your transferable skills.”

    I’m not looking for a magic answer here, because I know there isn’t one, but I’d like to not feel stuck. Thanks!

    1. Sir Lena Clare*

      High school teaching, tutoring, coaching, mentoring, public heath, environmental health – they probably will/might all require further training/ qualifications.

      Then there’s third sector work, and government work.
      Difficult to be specific without knowing what you’re really interested in, and what your quals are in.

      Might be a good idea to look at your transferable skills instead and base your search on that.
      And for building up skills for a different career, volunteering is great for that!

    3. Alex*

      What do you love about your job? I think if you love teaching, high school teaching could be an option. You don’t usually need any additional certifications for private schools–they’d probably love to have a former college instructor.

      Otherwise, higher ed administration or publishing?

    4. Bricolage on the Brink*

      I’d recommend the book “So what are you going to do with that?”. It provides a step by step process for PhDs to explore their skills and experiences to both identify alternate career areas and write/speak about them.

    5. New Senior Manager*

      Check out The Professor is In blog. Lots of valuable information (going from academia, esp. PhD into outside fields) available even if you decide not to hire her as a consultant.

  128. OwlStory*

    I have another question:

    I work on a team of four. Two members of the team are currently working for another part of our large government because there was a high need. This leaves me and my other coworker, which would be fine, but all four of us are supposed to be collaborating on things and unless it’s assigned, I’m doing 75-90% of the work. I have very little to do right now because of my job (think events/in-person marketing). sometimes I’ll wait for someone to start the group project, but usually I’m the one that starts it. And then I’m the one checking in for edits, making requests, etc. It’s like pulling teeth. We have a manager vacuum covered by a great dotted line boss that knows how doing the work, but has no teeth to back me up on anything due to weird hierarchy work stuff and a very ornery union (I like my union, but sometimes it really bothers me). Do I just deal with it and keep going? The coworker who is not working for another department has a high school and a college age kid at home, but this all predates the virus.

    1. valentine*

      If you had a manager and they would change this, it makes sense to ask that that power go to the person covering. Meanwhile…

      What are you wanting and who can provide it? Is your issue always being lead, the teeth-pulling, the combo? How far do you want to lower the 90%?

  129. MassMatt*

    A few months ago when the first big waves of layoffs and furloughs were hitting there was a thread talking about whether and how the states would check unemployment claims. I said it was not going to be possible for them to contact each employer about each possible claim. Several people said no, “you can’t run a business that way” but I was skeptical that unemployment offices, generally underfunded to begin with, were going to be able to meet this demand. This would mean 40 million emails and maybe 120 million phone calls.

    So we now have approximately 40 million people out of work. I’d like to ask those of you who had to lay off employees: how many verifications from state unemployment offices have you fielded?

    If anyone works at a state unemployment office, how are you verifying jobless claims? Are you denying benefits until you reach every former employer?

    My hunch was and is that most claims are being paid and spot-checked, at most, and if claims are found to be fraudulent they will be clawed back after the fact.

    1. VT*

      I’m in WA state and they are currently checking EVERYONE because we had big time fraud. I submitted for furlough days and my employer reached out to me to ask if I had applied or if it was fraud. We probably employ a few hundred people and when I said it was a real claim made by me, they told me they had gotten a lot of requests, some real and some fraudulent.

      My claim hasn’t been denied/approved yet, it still says pending, so I guess I keep waiting.

    2. Beatrice*

      I’m in Iowa, and they are checking. If that means they take four weeks to pay you, they are checking.

    3. pancakes*

      I don’t think asking commenters here (or anywhere) to weigh in on this has much probative value, but for what it’s worth federal, state, and city governments in the US do sometimes hire temps and contract workers when they need to, just like private employers do. I’ve worked as a contract attorney for my city on litigation a couple times, via the same agency that’s placed me on numerous non-government cases. I suspect there’s a lot of variety in how states are handling this.

    4. Picard*

      So far, every single person who we have laid off has been checked by the state. shrug. YMMV.

  130. LilPinkSock*

    My entire company (about 60 people) is WFH right now, through the end of the year. My EVP wants those of us on the admin team to divide up the list of employees and reach out individually to each person. The goal is to help people still feel connected (a lot of us are single pringles and the concern that the extroverts are struggling) and learn how we can be supportive.

    My question for the commentariat is: if you were working remotely for an extended period of time, and your company reached out for something of a wellness check, what would you like to be asked? What would you like to hear?

    1. merp*

      I think a key thing would maybe be to make it clear no response is needed if someone doesn’t want to respond. So letting them know how they can reach out or ask for something, but not requiring a response if they feel fine and don’t need anything. I think there have been some letters here in the past from people who feel like they are being required to talk about their personal/emotional state when they don’t want to and that would be uncomfortable for sure.

      In general, I personally like to hear if I’ve been helpful to someone or am doing a good job so if that is relevant to the people you are speaking to, that might be appreciated too.

    2. CM*

      I would not appreciate a wellness check unless it was clearly social, from someone who I’d ordinarily be social with (“Hi CM, just wanted to see how you’re doing! I’m finally starting to adjust to WFH, but the summer heat is getting to me. How’s work going, how’s the family, etc.”) -or- it was offering something concrete from the company, like “We’re checking in with each person to figure out whether there are accommodations that anybody needs. Can you let us know if there’s anything we can do to better support you, and we will look at the answers and see if there’s anything we can offer” or “We were thinking of having weekly virtual happy hours, is that something you’d be interested in?”

      1. CM*

        I meant to add — the reason I wouldn’t appreciate it otherwise is that it would feel like a hollow gesture. Like, “Hi, I’m checking in to see if you need support, we’re not actually planning to do anything, but just trying to make you feel good that we checked in.”

    3. RagingADHD*

      I would only want this if it were in conjunction with a specific resource or plan. So maybe something like “we’re thinking of doing a virtual happy hour just to chat, would you be interested?” or “here is a survey to see what we could help with, please add anything that might be useful for you” and have realistic options the company might provide, like help with childcare, more flexibility on hours, a stipend for increased internet costs, or something else concrete that they are willing & able to do.

      Just getting questioned by my employer about my emotional state would feel very intrusive and paternalistic.

    4. SomethingCleverHere*

      I don’t want my company’s secretary calling me at home to talk about my emotional state. It’s not your business. Honestly if your superiors want to help their employees they should be doing it themselves, not delegating it to you. If I found out my secretary was calling my employees to pry into their personal lives I would fire her.

  131. Snoopy Dog*

    While looking for something else I stumbled across an unsecured spreadsheet on my company’s shared folder system that lists every employee’s salary. I quickly closed it before I could see anyone’s information. But now I’m curious. I think I’m paid well, but my company is pretty disorganized (hence unsecured HR info) and there’s no clear policy on pay scales or any pay transparency, which, of course, benefits the employer but not the employees. We’re fairly diverse for our industry. Can I open the spreadsheet and cross check the pay that women and minorities receive? Can I look just for selfish curiosity? I don’t feel beholden to keep my employers’ secrets, but I don’t want to violate my coworkers’ privacy if this is something I shouldn’t snoop on.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      This wasn’t information that was freely shared with you, it was information you accidentally found. Don’t violate your coworkers’ privacy by accessing this information. Their salaries are theirs to share *if they choose*.

    2. BRR*

      Nope. This is information that someone should consent to. If you can, alert someone about the spreadsheet.

    3. CM*

      Not only should you not look, but you should tell someone in HR that you found this, closed it immediately, and want to alert them that this is unsecured.

    4. Snoopy Dog*

      Bummer! But okay. I wasn’t sure where this fell on the scale of absolutely private vs. okay to snoop. Glad I asked!

      It will be awkward to explain why I was looking in the folder where I found this info. I admit, I was snooping. I thought I’d find an unsecured document listing pay ranges for different titles – not everyone’s literal salary. To be honest I might just let it slide and avoid implicating myself as a snoopy dog.

      Thanks for the help.

      1. Grim*

        Don’t feel too bad because it’s really no harm no foul at this point.
        I discovered unsecured salary spreadsheets at 2 different companies that I worked at and was surprised that they were not in a locked folder.
        It was interesting to see the pay disparity between people, especially between the good employees and the slackers. In really proved that some people were promoted up to their level of incompetence.
        I felt guilty about snooping and finding them, because knowing what people were paid didn’t help me and actually made me feel worse. It’s better not to know.

  132. VT*

    Most of my organization is not back in the office and we probably won’t be full time for a very long time. But we still have a need to come in from time to time and there is staff who cannot work from home who come to work every day. We have a mandatory mask policy with progressive discipline if one does not want to wear a mask. We also know there are people who cannot wear masks so we bought plastic face shields. I haven’t heard any complaints about those but has anyone else’s office taken this step or do you allow some people to remain maskless? I can’t find anything online about how efficient face shields are versus cloth face coverings but it seems they are better than nothing if you can’t wear a mask.

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      We require masks, if you cannot wear one, you stay home.
      They bought us face sheilds and I wear both bc my coworkers do not all wear their masks properly.
      I have read articles about both working better than masks alone but not anything about face sheilds alone.

  133. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    How are you dealing with the perks you lost at your job?
    My employer offers a decent pay and compensates it with interesting perks to make it more attractive: expensive coffee, a snack vending machine, free lunch and bus service to and from the office building. Some even went as far as to send their kids to an exclusive school that is nearby! However, now we’re all remote and all that is gone, and some of my coworkers are spending more than before (mostly food and upgrading internet plans). I know of at least one person who left for a 100% remote job with a 25% salary bump. Has anyone tried getting reimbursed for extra expenses? I know that food costs will be difficult to prove (especially if you don’t live on your own), but I guess it’s reasonable to get a small bonus if you needed to switch to a premium internet plan?

    1. Anon for this*

      The point of those perks is generally to keep you at the office. Maybeeee on the internet but do people really not already have the best plan they can? As to the food, your company is not responsible for feeding you, if the salary is decent, as you say, let it go.

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        Not really. Your internet options depend on where you live. Some of my coworkers are in areas were fiber is not profitable, or companies flatly refuse to service them (usually in “dangerous”/”unsafe” neighbourhoods) so they depend on their phone operator. And even then no one is safe from service malfunctions. Corporate plans are expensive for a reason.

    2. Mediamaven*

      You are probably saving money on gas or transit so I wouldn’t ask for internet.

    3. Cat on a Keyboard*

      I think Alison answered a question like this recently. Check the “Covid” section.

    4. Koala dreams*

      It’s reasonable that the company pay for work related expenses: internet, phone, desk, computer, monitor, and so on. (Often internet and phone is split, so that the company shares the expense, for example they pay a certain percentage or a certain sum, not the entire bill.) However, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect the company to pay for snacks or coffee when working from home.

  134. Grim*

    Just curious what you are doing for health insurance if you’ve been laid off in the United States. Are you going with Cobra coverage or are you going with the ACA (Obama care) website for new insurance?

    1. New Senior Manager*

      In the past, I wrote a pro/con list on which option best fit my family’s financial and health care needs. Then I discussed with my spouse. We chose Cobra due to my spouse’s chronic illnesses. It was less expensive than other alternatives.

  135. JobHopper*

    Had an interview today for a well supported music (teaching) job. They will choose from 3 applicants by next Tuesday. It would be a breath of fresh air and double salary from anything as a substitute teacher.

    Would you email a thank you note in this case? I would normally mail it out but I am rural and the mail would deliver it in about a week.

    1. the Viking Diva*

      yes, do it! Email is appropriate (any time). Put “thank you note” in the AAM search tool to get lots of good advice from Alison on this. And good luck!

      1. JobHopper*

        @the Viking Diva @California @Pamela Adams

        Thank you very much for your feedback.
        I know it won’t be read until Monday (well, officially) but it feels good to have it done. I clarified some points that might have only been half answered.

        I’ll update when I know the results!

  136. LinkedIn Question*

    I’m looking for insight into LinkedIn. Would it be odd for someone to get on it even though they aren’t currently looking for a job? I’m content with my current job but also have a two-year goal. I was thinking about joining LinkedIn and building a network for the next two years just in case I decide to make a change. Is it inappropropriate to join now? Am I overthinking this? Does it have a facebook vibe? When I’m searching for information online, I can’t really understand what it is or how it’s used. Thank you for your comments.

    1. Mediamaven*

      Goodness no. It’s not a job searching site it’s for professional networking. You can find new sales leads, contacts. I don’t know what industry you are in but for most it’s really important! Get on and explore!

      1. pancakes*

        It does also have a job search function, though, where users can filter by category, location, set up email alerts, etc. There’s an about page titled “Job Searching on LinkedIn – Overview” that I don’t believe requires an account to read.

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      I teach a little about this for my library.
      Get an account, then search for people in your field and read their profiles so you can see what they write and how they are using it. Google for articles about what you should put in your profile but use your AAM skills to evaluate what they say. Then have fun looking around on the site.

    3. LinkedIn Question*

      With your encouragement, I created an account. I’m interested in connecting with classmates from many, many years ago. LinkedIn tells me to send a message when trying to connect. What kind of message do I send? This feels awkward.

      1. designbot*

        Most people don’t send the personalized message. If you choose to it’s fine to say something broad about just joining and excited to reconnect.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        It’s fine to use the default one. I have probably only received a handful of personalized ones, usually from people I don’t know personally.

        Personally I do use it a lot like I use Facebook – I skim the feed, don’t participate much, and every once in a while I come across an interesting article someone else posted that can be useful to me.

  137. WhatDo?*

    I could use some advice. I just started a new job this week in a new field and I’m already worried I made a mistake. Training via webcam is already not my favorite thing because I’m a learn by doing type, and the last few days have been a complete information dump. I’m exhausted even though I’m not even leaving the house. Then during today’s session, the trainer made a slut shame-y joke about clients (no specific individuals, but moms who have kids with multiple men) and implied that it was the kind of joke that was pretty frequently made among staff. She also used gendered pronouns for all of her examples in sort of unfortunate ways, which I might not have noticed as much if this wasn’t a field that’s supposed to really focus on inclusivity and diversity and all those good things. It just seemed pretty biased.

    If I’d been there longer, or if there was a way to say something without it being very obvious that it was me, I think I’d feel more comfortable discussing it with my boss, but I’ve literally met her once and barely know her. I also have a few more weeks of training, including a lot more time with this trainer, and I don’t want her to hate me right off the bat. I’m also not sure if I’m making a big deal out of nothing because I’m tired and sad about leaving my last job (which I loved) for what I thought was such a great opportunity. Should I just keep my mouth shut or is this something that might be worth bringing up?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Unless you have an open door to return to your old job, or another great offer in your pocket, I’d wait and get the lay of the land better before mentioning it to anyone.

      The trainer might be a “missing stair” that everyone is working around because Reasons, or the boss might be making moves to get rid of her, or she may in fact be representative of the culture. You just don’t have enough context to tell yet.

      You also need to figure out who is the right person to bring this to, because it may not be the obvious person. Those examples are subjective enough that some people would not take them seriously, and you need to know which people would get why it’s a problem.

      So I’m not saying let it slide, but bide your time.

      1. WhatDo?*

        Yeah, I guess it’s less that I’m seriously considering quitting and more that it’s been a frustrating week and I miss my old coworkers and being in my comfort zone. Still, the trainer is brand new and it feels like something that should be addressed for the future, but obviously not by me. I’m leaning toward bringing it up to someone (though who, as you rightly pointed out, I don’t know yet) at the end of training more as a “hey this just felt inappropriate” mention rather than a full blown complaint.

  138. Anon for this post*

    Hypothetically, does it look that bad if you quit on the spot and don’t give 2 weeks notice? They tend to dump work on people that are leaving/retiring anyways. Plus, my boss is abusive and yells a lot, so I don’t want to be around that. I know that you should give 2 weeks, but I don’t know if I can make it…

    1. CatCat*

      You should give two weeks notice. If they dump work on you, so what? You’re leaving and you can communicate what can and cannot get done in working a normal schedule for two weeks. “Since I am leaving, I can finish X and Y, but completing Z as well won’t be possible.” If they say, “You have to get it all done” then just do what you can and then leave your last day and let them know what still needs to be completed. After you’re gone, it’s not your problem!

      If your boss is abusive after you’ve put in your notice, you can then wrap it up right away. You’ve done your part to give the customary notice, but they aren’t entitled to abuse you. “I’d planned to stay two weeks to ensure a smooth transition. It sounds like it won’t be possible so today is my last day [or, ‘I’m leaving immediately’ if it’s really bad/endangering your physical or mental health].”

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Legally do you have to give 2 weeks notice? No.
      Should you give 2 weeks notice? Maybe.

      If you don’t care about a reference, you can leave whenever. It’s an At Will world baby!
      But I’d suggest at least trying to start with a 2 week notice (the purpose of which is to tie up loose ends and handover work) and taking the high professional road. If they get abusive you can always end it sooner.

      In fact, if they get abusive and yell or scream, I would definitely get out sooner. It would be unlikely a place like that would ever give you a good reference anyway.

    3. valentine*

      If you are choosing between reputation and health, choose health. You can’t count an abuser for a good reference.

  139. Just a Guy in A Cube*

    Lead/Manager types – how do you stay focused on the employee development work you should be doing? I lead a small team, and I’m pretty good at delegating work/keeping the widgets going, etc. and in the moment I think I’m good at explaining why you crank the handle twice/documenting how you have to kick it.
    But I want to help my team develop and improve, and I am struggling with planning that and giving it the attention that’s needed. The rest of our widget-making has a project manager, and I can actually work on solving the problem/learning the widget maker to improve. But there’s no similar feedback mechanism for making sure that Jane remembers to properly tighten the knobs and that John gets to work on the big widget to round out his skills.
    What do you do to stay focused and check in on those goals?

    1. it happens*

      Short answer – write it down. I used to have a brightly colored sheet in each of my direct report weekly update folders. This sheet had the development goals on it and the bright color meant that we checked in on it (and I wrote myself a note about how it was going) every week, along with the regular how are you doing with the goals/projects discussion.
      But if your question was a lot more literal than metaphoric about your workplace, like you really need to be reminded to walk a floor and do spot quality checks of knobs, etc., then put a ten minute walk around the floor appointment on your calendar at various times during the week.

      1. New Senior Manager*

        Yes. Write it down. Schedule it the same way you schedule other important events/actions needed.

  140. Resentful in [Redacted]*

    I posted several weeks ago about how my boss had essentially disappeared in the early days of COVID–they quit responding to emails, texts, etc. and kept bailing on scheduled phone calls and Zoom calls. Well, it never got much better. They would sporadically join in a Zoom call or something, but overall, still absent. And then they went on a spontaneous six-week vacation. In the meantime, the rest of us have gone back into the office and have staggered our work hours so we’re not all there at once, and are also working from home.

    Next week the boss gets back, and I have no idea how to communicate with them. I am mostly over my resentment–it’s actually been so long since any of us have seen the boss that we’ve kind of forgotten we *have* a boss. But the fact of the matter is, I do not have anywhere near the respect I had before this. I feel like I’ve had to take on too much responsibility and make too many decisions that shouldn’t have been mine to make, but they had to be made and our boss wasn’t available at all, in any way. The reason the boss gets paid literally more than twice my salary is to make those kinds of decisions.

    OK, so maybe I’m not really over the resentment quite yet. :-)

    Anyway, is this something I should bring up, or should I just let it go and be thankful that I can step down now from essentially doing my boss’s job on top of mine for the last three and a half months?

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Wow, I have nothing but wow!
      Has no one talked to the boss’s boss?

      I would probably not bother to bring it up at this point. What outcome would you like to see and are you likely to see?

    2. Alex*

      I think this one might be a “lead with compassion” moment.

      I would assume that they were going through something really personally awful and were just not able to work. Since you can’t know what it is, assume it was Valid, and lead with that.

      Sure, it might not be true. But it is better to assume the best and act accordingly, then it would be to show resentment and then find out their whole family died or something.

      1. Resentful in [Redacted]*

        I have wondered about that. I’ve checked in a few times, especially early on, before non-communication became The New Normal, when we were all worried. The boss has always responded that everything is fine… but they might just not have wanted to share, especially in text or email. We don’t have anyone in charge of HR right now who could have checked in officially to see what was going on.

        Of course, *if* something serious was happening and they knew it would take them out of commission for a while, it would have been nice to know so the rest of us could plan for it. I guess that’s water under the bridge now, but I’m probably going to have a hard time resuming the relationship we used to have, which was trustful and cordial. I feel like our whole department and our clients were just… abandoned.

        1. LGC*

          Hot opinion: DON’T resume your relationship like nothing has happened. That is, be cordial…but you now have this new information about your boss that’s relevant.

          I’d welcome them back and check in (if they do show up) – and let them know how difficult the past few months have been for you. Who knows, they might have been going through something. They might have been dealing with a family member who had COVID (like my boss did – she at least told me, but she probably didn’t want to since she’s private). They might have had COVID themselves – it seems like COVID can linger for months. (I’ve known a couple of people who’ve had it, and it DOES NOT take two weeks to recover fully. It takes two weeks before you can appear in public again, and then longer to fully recover.)

          And for the record, you still get to be annoyed even if their entire family died of COVID one by one. That’s a tragedy I don’t want to fathom, but also…at no point in three and a half months did they say that they’re going through a rough time? I get it, but I think that’s a toxic level of privacy. (Which is a searing hot take for this website, given consensus opinion is, “NEVER TALK ABOUT ANYTHING IN YOUR PERSONAL LIFE EVER AT WORK OR YOU WILL GO TO THE HELLMOUTH.”) The problem isn’t that your boss went absent, it’s that they pretty much went AWOL, and a simple, “Hey, going through a bunch of stuff, might not be available” would have fixed this.

          1. Resentful in [Redacted]*

            Thank you. I love “toxic level of privacy.” I think that might kind of be what’s going on here, but it’s odd–there are other highly personal things that my boss has no problem talking about, ever. And you’re right: just knowing that the boss was going to be unavailable for a while would have taken care of the whole thing. It’s actually been a lot easier since they’ve been on vacation, because we’ve had no expectations. It would have been easier still if any of us had been given the actual authority to make decisions in the boss’s absence, of course.

            I guess we’ll figure it out tomorrow, but I am dreading that check-in.

  141. Thankful for AAM*

    Has anyone read the book Stupefied? Any thoughts on it? It really does explain my workplace so perfectly!
    Link to an article in the comments.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I hate to meet cynicism with more cynicism, but this looks like a version of the same premise as the book “Bullshit Jobs,” which is a version of Dilbert, which is a version of Douglas Adams’ storyline about the Golgafrenchans in “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.”

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I think this is a pretty fair description of a lot of corporate businesses. I’ve lived through a few if these scenarios in the article. For example:

      “He learned that his main job was to make a good impression with the client, not to solve their problems.“ This is because consulting firms exist to make more money “trying to solve” problems, not actually solving them.

      I recently went though a time where a very simple low stakes “thing” could not move forward because one executive didn’t like it. Even though there were good reasons, he didn’t like it, and it wasn’t really even his department or decision to approve the “thing.” And everyone was afraid to make the call and approve “thing” due to this one executive. It literally wasted 4 months of runaround.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I haven’t read it, but am currently living the “let’s adopt Hot New Process for everything!” My manager is a huge enthusiast of Hot New Process and apparently cannot discriminate between the kind of project that it’s intended and works well for, and the kind that cannot be shoved through the process with any hope of success. He’s insisting that I give it a shot, he’s so so so sure it’ll be an amazing learning process for me. Best analogy I can think of is that he has a new electric meat slicer and has only ever dealt with roast beef and ham, and I’m in charge of whole roast chickens. It’s going to be a mess.

  142. Amethyst*

    I got word today that there’s a 90% chance of me going fulltime at my current job and I couldn’t be more ecstatic. It’s being made possible due to a much loved coworker in my department leaving. My promotion to that from parttime will happen sometime in the next couple weeks. :)

  143. BuckyWithTheGoodHair*

    I’ve been job-hunting for a couple of months now with no success (great timing for it, I know), and while I’d love for one of my many applications to turn up something good, I’m starting to think about temp agencies and looking for a temp-to-hire job. Trouble is, I have no experience in temping, and some of the stories I’ve read on here have made me nervous of ending up with a sketchy agency. Any advice for how to find a trustworthy temp agency? (I’m in Texas, if that helps.)

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, some of the largest are Randstad, Addeco and Robert Half. Aerotek and Kelly Services also come to mind. They might be good with size, as these usually offer some benefits and will be more likely to work with larger enterprise companies. Which one will depend on your field.
      It’s been years since I’ve tried working for one, and I never had luck as a designer. But a big company I worked for used Addeco to good success for hiring customer service.

    2. None the Wiser*

      You can sign up with multiple agencies! It’s a common practice! If you find you don’t like the way a particular agency treats you, you can choose not to work with them.

    3. nep*

      I’ve worked with Randstad in the past and had good experiences with them. It might differ by region/state, but they seem pretty solid.

      1. BuckyWithTheGoodHair*

        I hardly even knew where to look, so all these suggestions are great. As is the idea of doing multiple agencies–I hadn’t realized that was an option.
        Thanks so much!

    4. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Are you in communication with/on good terms with anyone at a former employer who had anything to do with arranging temps? They might be able to recommend a good agency to you.

  144. Smj*

    I needed a place to say this, so here i am. I just went out on maternity leave a month early. 3 days in hospital followed by 2 weeks of baby in nicu. I’ve known my grand boss for more than a decade and they were great through my last leave and super supportive. They just told me new boss of less than a year (and a newly inserted layer between grand boss and me) has apparently resigned and is gone as of this week. I feel so bad for GB because they’re down 4 people now (hiring freeze on 1 position since COVID, another just left, and me on leave and now my boss). Boss did do certain things well, and i appreciated their work on those projects because it was not where my own strengths lie. But also… I was so unhappy under boss rather than GB. We just clashed on so many other levels to where i wanted out when my maternity leave was over even though i love my job. So I’m doing a happy dance now and I just hope that it all doesn’t fall to pieces while I’m gone because boss was trained on a bunch of things I handle, and there are some things i didn’t get in order yet because i was early.

  145. Anon for this*

    I’m looking at a position I’m interested in and the listing asks candidates for salary requirements along with resume/cover letter. There’s no salary range listed. I know that in my state, potential employers have to disclose the salary if applicants ask, but this job is in New York and I’m not familiar with the law there. Does anyone know if this is also a law in New York? I’m a little wary because the same company has another position in my state, but it also asks for salary requirements, even though they would have to disclose if asked. I’m used to the govt sector, where salaries are public information, so everything’s out in the open.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      In NYC, it’s illegal to ask for salary history, as of 2017. It also is illegal to ask for salary history as of January 6th, 2020. From the NYS Salary History ban page:

      May a prospective employer ask an applicant about their current or past salary, compensation or benefits?

      No. Effective January 6, 2020, Labor Law Section 194-a prohibits an employer from, either orally or in writing, personally or through an agent (directly or indirectly), asking any information concerning an applicant’s salary history information. This includes compensation and benefits. The law also prohibits an employer from relying on an applicant’s salary history information as a factor in determining whether to interview or offer employment at all or in determining what salary to offer. Please note that additional protections under local laws may also apply.

      An employer may ask an applicant for their salary expectations for the position instead of asking what the applicant earned in the past.

      An employer can also ask the applicant for their salary expectations in NYC as well, according to the fact sheet I read on the NYC Gov site when I googled it.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks. I’m actually asking about the opposite scenario. If I want to apply to a position that does not have a salary listed, does the company have to tell me what the salary range is for the position if I ask? That’s how it is in California, but I don’t know about New York. So it’s the company disclosing salary, not the prospective employee.

        CA also has a similar law to the one you cited, but there’s the addition of what I detailed above in it as well

  146. Promotion?*

    How long should you wait for a possible promotion before deciding to move on?

    I had a lengthy conversation with my boss back in early February and asked for a salary increase and title change. He asked me for some documents and seemed very supportive and on board. I followed up again with him in May once I figured most of the craziness from COVID-19 had calmed down. He asked for more documentation and said he needed to talk to HR. Since then I have talked to several managers on my team who all expressed what a great job Iʼm doing and how supportive they are of me transitioning to a new role.

    After discussing things with my husband, I figured I would give the company until July to make things official or I would start job searching. Am I being too impatient? Everyone says all the right things, but I donʼt see any evidence of concrete action. FWIW, I work for a government contractor, so maybe it is an issue of red tape and bureaucracy. Thanks for any insight you can provide!

    1. valentine*

      Start searching.

      Assume the promotion isn’t happening. He could have told you it was red tape or whatever it may be that isn’t him. Instead of making and sharing (even by saying he can’t share) progress, he keeps repeating the cycle by putting the onus on you.

        1. valentine*

          He’s also not a good manager. You need someone who can have difficult conversations.

    2. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      +1 to exactly what Valentine says. Their intentions may be good, and there may be real red tape, but ultimately this is dangling a carrot in front of you indefinitely (been there a few years ago, but thankfully a re-org happened and got me away from the carrot-dangler). It’s up to you to decide how long you want to deal with this as this scenario goes on. Starting a search now doesn’t mean anything will happen imminently, but you should know your options and choices elsewhere if you do want to make a solid decision.

  147. Anonnington*

    A few weeks ago, I was promoted at my volunteer job. I’m now scheduled to supervise someone who made some vaguely prejudiced comments the last time we worked together. The comments were directed at me as well as at another agency (one with a minority affiliation – being vague to keep this private). It seemed to be in the realm of ignorance, and it was subtle. But it left me concerned.

    So I’m getting ready to keep a close eye on things and say something if necessary. Everyone else I work with is great. This has been the only problem so far.

  148. Arts Akimbo*

    My entire industry is like an enmeshed friend-circle with terrible boundaries between professionalism and personal hijinx. And now it’s imploding. AGAIN. Like, how hard is it not to defecate where you eat? (Very hard, for some, apparently.)

  149. Hiding from my boss*

    My company has started a big career development push, with fliers to help you talk to your boss about your career path and a mentorship program. We went thru some major re-org in recent years and I think this is part of it, but there aren’t many opportunities for promotion here. My new boss pushed me to get into the program so I’m going thru the motions, but I’m actually pretty depressed about it and I can’t get up any enthusiasm or faith in it.

    After a lot of years and several managers, I had accepted that my job activities would only diminish –no chance to learn and grow or to get ahead, lower-level responsibilities. I had also accepted that my choices were to stay or leave. Taking a chance on a new job is scary because retirement isn’t that far off; at the same time I have some good years left and I don’t want to spend them being miserable. I had *just* decided to mount a vigorous job search, since the job market was so favorable, and no time later Corona virus happened.

    Now I’m wondering if I’m being realistic or defeatist and if I should give the program more of a chance. Thoughts, anyone?

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