my employee lied about having COVID

by Alison Green on July 23, 2020

A reader writes:

I work for a mid-sized organization that serves children of all ages, most of whom have special needs. Recently one of our (now former) employees admitted that they had lied about receiving a positive diagnosis for COVID-19 (presumably to get paid leave through the new paid leave law, though we never ended up paying them and they never actually indicated that was the reason for their dishonesty). In the end, we learned that this individual never actually went to get tested though they’d assured us they had, and then lied to us again by reporting that their test results had come back positive.

We had requested documentation to show that they were “under advisement of a healthcare professional” (as required by the new paid leave law) but they were unable to produce any, even though they had assured us several days earlier that they would bring it in when they returned to work. During subsequent discussions, they continued to insist they had been tested but could not obtain any verification. Ultimately, they confessed that they had not consulted with a healthcare professional nor had they been tested (nor received a positive diagnosis) as they’d reported. All communications with the employee were electronic so we have a good record of what transpired. We fired them for the dishonesty.

Meanwhile, though, we had closed the entire facility for several days, some areas of the building for over a week, and we had hired an outside contractor to help our custodial team clean and sanitize the facility. We also paid employees their regular wages throughout the closure so the cost to the organization was not insignificant, though it felt so when compared with the immense emotional upheaval that transpired: employees panicked, clients panicked, the leaders of the organization worked around the clock for several days to put emergency plans and communication pieces in place… It was a very stressful and uncertain time for all involved, as you can surely imagine.

We have recently learned that the Department of Justice has created a hotline for people to report suspected COVID-19 related fraud, and that they have prosecuted employees for similar offenses (see one example here). Our question is whether we are in any way obligated to report this employee and if so, what exactly would happen if we do report? I’ve been tempted to call the hotline to ask about their process without providing identifying details (yet) but I am unsure if that is the best course of action. We don’t have the resources (nor the desire, frankly) to get involved in a lengthy legal battle. Furthermore (and despite the obvious disgust that someone would lie about a positive diagnosis during a frickin’ pandemic) we are not even sure we want to “out” them because they are a) quite young and possibly “that naive”, and b) they were relatively new to our organization so we never got a very good sense of what may have been going on behind the scenes that might’ve compelled them to behave this way.

So, what do you think? How would you proceed? Should we call in the feds? Or should we just drop it in hopes that losing a job in a tough economy is punishment enough for an inexperienced young adult?

I’d report it.

I can’t speak to what happens after you make a report, but I’m sure you can call the hotline and ask and then decide from there. (My guess is that they’ll take a report from you and then investigate it like they would any other crime, calling on you as a witness when needed — but you should ask them directly.)

But this isn’t “I feel like staying home so I’ll lie and say I have a sore throat.” This is someone who engaged in genuine fraud, caused you to lose significant money, and inflicted serious hardship on your business and mental distress on your staff and clients.

What’s more, they committed to the fraud over and over, on multiple occasions, before finally confessing only when they were backed into a corner. If they’d come clean the first time you’d questioned them — or even if they’d seemed genuinely contrite and horrified at their actions — then I could see just leaving it alone, post-firing. But this was real fraud, with significant consequences. I’d report it.

Update: I’m changing my view on this to “don’t report it,” thanks to a lot of really convincing arguments in the comment section. Specifically:

* The employee didn’t receive the sick leave funds she was trying to obtain. She did cause expense to the business and other hardships to people, but that’s not something you take to the DOJ and doing so is unlikely to make the business whole.

* You especially shouldn’t take it to this DOJ, which has a terrible track record on actual justice, and given this administration’s interest in ending pandemic assistance.

* Some commenters have asked whether the employee could have reasonably believed she did have COVID. My read of the letter and my correspondence with the letter-writer is that she just lied to get paid time off, but that would certainly change things if it were the case.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I think I called this wrong, and really appreciated reading the comments arguing a different point of view. I’ve added an update to the post changing my stance. (Thanks, all.)

      1. Juneybug*

        The smartest folks are the ones that know they are human and will occasionally make a mistake and willing to admit it. In your case, it’s pretty rare you make one. :)

        1. Kisses*

          It’s true! Alison is right on so much of the time- and its full on respectful to apologize and explain when she might be wrong. Great site and I’m glad I’ve been reading for a while.

    2. ItsOnlyMe*

      Thank you Alison for being so open minded and authentic. I’ve been an avid reader of yours for many years, your message above is why.

    4. CircleBack*

      I am so relieved! I read the first part on my RSS feed and thought “huh, I wonder if the comments agree.” I appreciate your open-mindedness and willingness to course correct.

    6. Tiny_Strawberries*

      Soooo glad that you went back on your decision about it. Imagine if this employee had other past records she was trying to leave behind, only to have another report based on something that may have been totally panic driven? In my opinion the people who should be reported for COVID fraud are the major corporations who took PPP money and still laid off their lowest-earning employers.

      1. Kisses*

        So if a business got PPP, were they not supposed to lay off employees?
        My boss (?) got a PPE loan and then laid almost everyone off.
        Living in Florida, I have not gotten a dollar from unemployment yet. It’s been two months.

        1. Ego Chamber*

          Sorry, that really sucks.

          PPE loans are loans for the business and I don’t believe there were any terms related to employee retention in those ones. PPP loans are eligible to be forgiven if a certain percentage of the loans are spent on payroll and if they retain/rehire a certain percentage of employees through a certain date. It’s only the second one where they had a huge financial incentive to keep employees, not the first. (Unless there’s more to it?)

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            One of the requirements of the PPP loan is that the employer will maintain, if not the same exact employees, the same NUMBER of employees as they did at the time they received their PPP loan. Am in Florida also and worked with the boss to do the paperwork. Your boss is going to have to provide proof he continued to maintain his workforce. You could probably report him to his financial institution for the fraud.

    7. CandleSoup*

      I’m late to this one, but I’m so glad that the commenters pointed this out, and thank you so much Alison for updating. Let’s try not to call the cops/feds/authorities on anyone right now unless it’s life or death. Unfortunately, experience has shown that we can’t trust them to react appropriately.

      1. The DOJ?!?!*

        CandleSoup from a member of a marginalized demographic who is at risk of violence perpetrated by cops/feds/authorities, thank you for taking this attitude. You’re correct, we absolutely cannot trust them to react appropriately. Not calling any US authorities unless there’s absolutely NO OTHER WAY is the only humane choice.

    8. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I moved a long subthread in reply to this comment into its own thread further down the page, so if you’re looking for your comment in it, search for your name and you’ll find it. (This is directed to commenter “The DOJ?!?!” in particular, since you sent me a frustrated message thinking it had been removed entirely. I have no way to reply to you there so hopefully you’ll see this here.) I moved it since replying to the top comment with your own line of argument sort of hijacks the top of the page in a way that I don’t think is fair to other commenters.

  2. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

    Report it. Being young and dumb isn’t an excuse. There are way too many people who aren’t taking this pandemic seriously, and she needs to answer for what she did. And don’t feel guilty. Her lie caused a chain reaction of panic and unnecessary expense for your company. She only has herself to blame.

    1. Insert Clever Name Here*

      Agreed. Additionally, the people at your company need to see that you’re taking the fraud as seriously as you took the diagnosis.

      1. Marzipan Shepherdess*

        Reporting it will also signal to the rest of your employees that anyone else who gets that “bright” idea will be fired and reported for fraud. Once word gets around (and it will, you know!) what that employee did, the rest of the staff will be watching closely to see how you deal with it.

        And how you deal with it will tell them a LOT about the ethical standards that you set and how willing you are to enforce them! Frankly, if I’d had my life turned upside down because of that liar, I’d be furious at them – and furious at any supervisor who didn’t take it seriously enough to terminate and report that person. As for their being young and naive – if they’re old enough to work, they’re old enough to do so responsibly, and taking the consequences of your behavior is an excellent way to grow out of that kind of naivete.

        1. Senor Montoya*

          Agreed. There’s a difference between “naive” and “lying over and over again”.

    2. EgyptMarge*

      +1

      This is closer to shouting “FIRE!” in a crowded movie theater than it is to trying to scam an extra sick day. There were real repercussions to her actions – financial for the company, and likely emotional/stress for the employees. Let the people working the hotline decide what level this rises to with regards to possible prosecution. Give them the information and let them do their jobs.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. … and a small child can be taught not to yell fire if there isn’t any fire because the panic causes people to get hurt. So age/innocence is not a factor here.

      2. The DOJ?!?!*

        Let’s assume this employee wasn’t actually exposed, and was lying. How much less upheaval would a person who was actually exposed have caused? Wouldn’t it have been exactly the same? How about the next employee to be exposed? Which will definitely happen btw.

        This person maybe lied to get paid time off, maybe lied because they were sick but didn’t want to pay for the test, but either way the employee just exposed the gap between the company’s prior preparedness for exposure and where our needed to be. What if the employee just THOUGHT they were exposed????

        1. Ego Chamber*

          Employees saw how the company handles a potential covid exposure (really well it sounds like!) and the employer could afford the expense (I’m assuming since it was considered a small expense until it turned out to be totally unnecessary). Hate to say it but this is probably going to happen again before the pandemic’s over, except with a real potential covid exposure.

          Whatever reasons the employee had for lying, I’m still confused about how this is considered any kind of fraud? They weren’t paid for the sick leave by the employer and they didn’t collect any government benefits, so where’s the crime?

          The employee lied, and the consequence was they were fired. LW says they think the employee did it for paid time off but the employee never said that so I’m not sure why the DOJ would get involved in this at all (f’rex, I’ve contacted the DOJ to ask about an illegal policy an employer had with their checks and they told me they couldn’t do anything until after I was paid incorrectly). If the employer wants to sue for all the expenses they paid, I guess they can try but I don’t imagine it would go over well.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I keep thinking of how many of this kid’s coworkers went out and. tested because of this. That’s expensive for them, and could come with false positives that could disrupt their family life.

        1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

          The individual actually contacted team members and told them to get tested.

          1. Sam.*

            Oh, that’s interesting. I don’t think many people would go out of their way to do that unless either they genuinely believed they/their coworkers were at risk or they’ve schemed up a very thorough plan to steal two weeks vacation, and I think the former is more likely. It does make something like “employee has reason to think they may be positive but can’t easily access a test and therefore lies about it –> realizes they’re probably not sick after all but is panicked to admit it after the trouble the company went through –> more lies” seem plausible to me. I used to work with young adults, and it’s not too much of a stretch to imagine some of them engaging in that kind of panicked decision-making, especially if there was something else going on in their lives.

          1. Cara*

            Because Alison has historically used female pronouns where gender is unspecified, as a way of counterbalancing the commonplace use of male pronouns as default. Commenters are not required to do likewise, but many have adopted the practice.

            In this case the letter uses they/them clearly and consistently so presumably Alison followed suit. That doesn’t obligate commenters to do likewise.

          2. Myrin*

            Short version: Because Alison has been committed to combatting the default use of male pronouns when gender is unknown which happens almost everywhere else for years (maybe even since starting this site, I’m not too sure) and many commenters have followed suit.

            Like you say, that didn’t happen here, and generally when pronouns actually are mentioned in the original letter people are pretty good at following that, but the default “she” often still comes through if people aren’t careful.

            1. Lynn*

              Hm interesting.

              It almost seems like it ends up over-correcting and landing in the territory of stereotypes of women being wrong / annoying (people don’t typically write in to ask about help with their super great coworkers), nevermind that it also excludes people who are nonbinary (like one of the other LWs today) but I can see that logic.

              1. Christmas Carol*

                Miss Manners used to say that she always addressed letters of praise to Dear Madam, and letters of complaint to Dear Sir.

              2. hbc*

                I think the bias it pointed out to me was in “boss” or “manager.” Before I got used to her pronoun style, I wouldn’t really notice when a non-gendered coworker was “she”, but I would do a bit of a mental double-take if an non-gendered manager was “she.” I wouldn’t have guessed I had that default, having had several women managers and being one myself, but I can’t deny it.

              3. Spencer Hastings*

                Sort of. But Alison also uses it to refer to new characters that don’t appear in the letter, e.g. “You should talk to your boss about X. Tell her that Y and Z…” In that case, the default feminine is used to refer to someone who is assumed to be reasonable and competent.

              4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                It almost seems like it ends up over-correcting and landing in the territory of stereotypes of women being wrong / annoying (people don’t typically write in to ask about help with their super great coworkers), nevermind that it also excludes people who are nonbinary (like one of the other LWs today) but I can see that logic.

                Alison’s blog, Alison’s rules.

          3. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I’m closing this thread because it’s getting off-topic but before I do, some clarifications:

            I refer to everyone as “she” when I write if gender is unknown because there have been centuries of people using “he” similarly, and I like pushing a female presence into language since women were left out of it for so long. I’ve had a lot of people tell me that my doing this here has caused them to start picturing a default manager as a woman rather than a man (when lots of research shows most people default to men). I like that.

            That said, there’s no rule that anyone else needs to do it here, although some commenters have picked it up too.

        2. Observer*

          However, the OP made it their business to NOT identify the worker either way. I don’t think it’s so hard to stick with that.

    4. Gov Contractor Employee*

      +1 Allison and the prior commenters have all said it well. This is a major issue and needs to be reported.

    5. Nothing But Flowers*

      This is my instinct in the normal world for sure. But with this current DOJ? I worry, I worry about all of it. In normal circumstances though….what a nightmare.

      1. Observer*

        Still. Young person doesn’t live under a rock. They knowingly did something that caused some significant harm.

      2. The DOJ?!?!*

        Interesting. It’s not MY “instinct” to call authorities in to punish people. I might if someone was in danger, or if I really HAD to for some reason. I’m just curious why it’s your instinct to call in authorities when protection isn’t needed, but just for them to act punitively.

        1. Ego Chamber*

          I get what you’re saying here and I totally agree with the overall point but I think the pandemic relief has language that makes the employer liable if they don’t report employees who are illegally taking advantage of the pandemic relief. I don’t think that’s what happened here though: this hurt the employer financially but didn’t defraud anyone for their own financial gain since they weren’t paid, they just lied to get extra (unpaid) time off (and they got fired for it, so that’s the consequence).

        2. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

          Because, sometimes, some people need to be treated punitively to get the point. I have a neighbor who needs that, otherwise she runs around at night shining her (very bright) flashlight into moving vehicles. We’ve told her to stop. She won’t. So we call the authorities.

    6. Ping*

      It’s also a diss on all the young people that are hard working and honest. Young people are not by default dumb and trying to scam the system.
      This person wasn’t just calling out. They were applying for special paid leave.

      1. Marzipan Shepherdess*

        Thank you! No, most young people are NOT dumb and dishonest, and most would not like to be lumped together with a fraudster.

    7. CookieWookiee*

      This makes my blood boil. I had it in March. Positive test and everything. 105 fever, coughs that felt like they would split my body apart, and pain so bad I wanted to die. But because I could still (mostly) breathe on my own, I wasn’t eligible for hospital treatment.

      I was out for over a week. I went back to (WFH) work much earlier than I probably should have, because I’d burned so much of my leave. Several weeks later, my work later allowed for admin leave for Covid patients…retroactive to the day before I came back. So I got 8 hours back, which was something, but hardly makes up for what I lost. And had I known I was going to get it back, I would have stayed out sick much longer (and probably gotten better faster).

      Report. Your. Employee. How DARE they pretend to be sick with Covid.

      They needlessly caused a huge health scare/crisis for so many people. You even gave everyone full pay while it was dealt with in the office. They’re lucky you’re not suing them.

        1. CookieWookiee*

          Thank you. I am, mostly. I’ve been procrastinating going to the pulmonologist, but I really need to. My lungs feel heavy, and I still cough sometimes (not as often or as hard).

          I consider myself fortunate…as bad as it was for me, it was worse for many others. An extended family member had to be intubated and lost a leg because of Covid’s tendency to cause blood clots. (I understand he’s doing relatively ok now.) Friends have lost whole branches of their family.

          I get SO ANGRY when I see people minimizing it, or calling it a hoax, refusing to wear masks, and pulling ridiculous stunts like this for sympathy or money or whatever. YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET IT. YOU DON’T EVEN WANT TO PRETEND TO GET IT.

          So OP’s ex-employee LIED about a positive test, which sent the office, all their coworkers, the coworkers’ families, the company’s clients, and the clients’ families into a tailspin, for what? A few free paid days off?

          For those who don’t think this is a big deal, that it’s an internal matter, OP calling the DOJ blowing it out of proportion, etc., etc.—this isn’t like leaving the office 10 minutes early when the boss isn’t looking, or using someone else’s milk in the fridge. THIS IS STEALING. It’s stealing money, and time, and quality of life, from potentially hundreds of people. How is that not a crime?

      2. The DOJ?!?!*

        Congrats on your recovery. And on being able to access and afford a test. And on having a job … which you can work from home, a little too early.

        I provide support to disabled people across the US. The vast majority are, by the design of our constituency and their elected reps, quite poor. The vast majority have jobs, and do not receive SSDI or assistance of any other kind. I would estimate that of the some 1200 people I support, from every state of the union, approximately 70% have or have had clear, obvious Coronavirus symptoms. I can calculate fairly accurately that of those, roughly 6% have been able to access a test at all, in any form.

        I’m sorry you got sick. Calling fascist authorities on people is still wrong. This person was very likely exposed or actually sick. Just because they admitted to not really having a test, doesn’t mean they weren’t really sick. There are 367 thousand reasons a U.S. citizen might not be able to access a test, and I’ve heard them all 1000 times each in the last four months, and I’m losing my GD mind. Believe me, if you were in my shoes, your first assumption would be that the employee couldn’t get a test. Your first!

        I’m sure it’s not how you meant to come off, but please let me tell you how

        “Report. Your. Employee. How DARE they pretend to be sick”…

        reads to a disabled person. It’s not hyperbole, or impressionistic talk, to tell you that I honestly can’t count the number of times I personally have been attacked for being ill, when the underlying problem was really that I couldn’t afford care, so I was just generally not pleasing to my employer or family member.

        Please, I beg you, stop clapping. at. people. to call the cops on everyone, particularly the sick and potentially poor.

        1. CookieWookiee*

          Um. A couple of things.

          One: Yes, I am very lucky to have a job, especially now. I recognize that.

          Two: My Covid test was free, given by the city. I didn’t actually :have: access—at that time they were only giving out tests to people with scripts. No doc would see me to give me one. I went to our testing site, told them I had symptoms but no script, and thank goodness the Nat’l Guard let me in despite that.

          Three: “This person was very likely exposed or actually sick.” No, they were not. They admitted they lied just to get time off.

          Four: as for your “but please let me tell you how ‘Report. Your. Employee. How DARE they pretend to be sick’ reads to a disabled person” comment, how do you know how abled :I: am?

          Five: I am very sorry about you not being able to afford care. I have been there myself. It sucks. What also sucks is “you don’t look sick, I don’t see why you need time off.”

          Six: I am :not: “clapping at people to call the cops on everyone particularly the sick and potentially poor.” Nowhere did I say “everyone who says they have Covid and doesn’t should be arrested.” Nowhere did I say that people who are sick, or poor, or both should be arrested. And in this case, those are completely irrelevant issues here. This wasn’t about access to a test or care or money—this was someone WHO DELIBERATELY LIED about contracting a very serious and contagious disease, just to get a few days of vacation. They had no symptoms, they just didn’t want to go in.

          (And before you try to throw it in my face, I’ve worked my share of jobs where there was no sick leave policy, so on bad days it was either going in feeling like I’d been run over by a truck, or risk getting fired. I’ve chosen both at different times.)

          This is someone who valued their own selfish desires over the physical and mental health of hundreds of people. You don’t see how a) that’s a very serious problem, and b) that’s completely different from the scenario you describe?

          1. Maybe COVID*

            I apologize if this ends up being a bit of a duplicate, but I posted a comment using my phone and then… it disappeared, so I’m uncertain whether it’s just in moderation, or if there was an error on my end.

            But I came here to say that in my experience with “maybe COVID,” it was very difficult to get a test and an official diagnosis—so I didn’t. I don’t have health insurance, I’m relatively young, and I had no risk factors that qualified me for the test. Therefore, all of the healthcare professionals that I called advised that I don’t seek a test, because it would just place undue burden on an already-overwhelmed healthcare system.

            From OP’s comments, it doesn’t sound like it’s terribly difficult or costly to get a COVID test. And the fact that the employee self-quarantined for 2 weeks shortly before that would seem incriminating. However, generalized anxiety may lead a person to some irrational actions —and the symptoms of anxiety (chest pain, shortness of breath) may certainly contribute to the sense that they are infected.

            I was sick for something like 4-6 weeks. During that time, I called COVID hotlines and public health authorities, and all of them said, “Sounds like COVID, but we can’t test you.” However, my boss was constantly pressuring me to get tested. Then to get antibody tested. She’s wonderful, and I’m sure it was well-intentioned. But it did make me squirm a bit, since I *could not* get the test, and antibody tests are known to be inaccurate, not FDA approved, and I would’ve had to pay out of pocket.

            At the same time, if I had to prove that I consulted with a healthcare professional, I’m uncertain that I could. Although I gave the hotlines my name, contact info, and symptoms, who knows if the records are being held? Was it taken as a formal “visit” or was it just a call for information? I couldn’t tell you.

            So I think best practices are to assume that a person who is ill with the symptoms *probably* has it, and encourage them to stay home, guarantee them pay, and keep your distance. Or, if you doubt that they have it, assign them work that they can do from home. If they protest that they are too ill, ask that they at least do a virtual visit and be clear that, unless they work, their pay will be held until the notes are returned.

            After all, OP says (as far as I can tell) that the employee admitted that they did not get tested or seek consultation. OP does not say whether the employee actually had any symptoms of illness or not. I think that if a person reports symptoms, it’s better to assume they have them, and maintain social distancing or a quarantine.

        2. Bluephone*

          Hearing that other people have it worse doesn’t undo CookieWookie’s brush with COVID so what is the point of your hounding them? Letting people get away with stuff scot free is how we have a literal Nazi and sexual predator in THE WHITE HOUSE. And you know that bag of fake spray tanner and Big Macs would lie about having COVID if he thought it would help him steal another election.
          OP’s coworker committed fraud, knowingly, and actually put public health at risk. Patting them on the head all “aww it’s okay! You’re just disenfranchised (maybe) and shouldn’t be held responsible for your actions, awww!!” is actually insulting and infantilizing.

          1. Maybe COVID*

            I don’t think we have enough info to go on hard on that employee as many people here are being.

            We only know that they didn’t get tested or consultation. We don’t know if they had symptoms or not.

            An alternate narrative could be that they ran out of PTO (which OP has said they were in comments) and would not have been able to take time off without saying they had a positive test—which can be a hardship in some areas. OP has said they directed the employee to a free testing site, but there are a lot of reasons a person might not want to go (afraid of being in public, can’t get out of bed, afraid they missed the window to have an accurate test).

            Another alternate narrative could be that this employee suffers from anxiety and the chest pain and shortness of breath from that felt like it could be COVID. Anxiety might’ve kept them from testing centers, and might’ve worsened their paranoia about this situation.

            I’m not saying either of those are definitely true, but we only have a very limited scope in the employee’s situation, so while making an assumption that they were out to commit fraud might be easy, it’s not necessarily accurate.

      3. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        I am so sorry you had to endure this incomprehensible virus. I think stories like yours are why our leadership team has even the slightest compulsion to act on this. We have many older and otherwise at-risk workers on our team and the thought of anyone taking advantage of anything or anyone during this pandemic is heartbreaking.

        1. CookieWookiee*

          Thank you. It sounds like your leadership did a great job taking care of their employees. I applaud them. This thing is no joke. And like I said upthread, I had it easy compared to many.

          (My leadership…is kind of a mixed bag. It’s clear that some of them think we’re all overreacting, or whining just to get extra WFH or time off. But others are doing their best to protect us.)

    8. Turtle Candle*

      And naive is like, “I am ignorant or inexperienced” or “I have never had to think about this before because sheltered.”

      Anyone over the age of about five knows that flagrant lies that hurt people, that you perpetrate for profit, are bad. This isn’t naïveté.

    9. I’m screaming inside too!*

      I disagree with Alison’s advice to report it. As others have said, *this current* DOJ isn’t one that acts in a moral manner, and it seems like reporting it to the fraud hotline has the potential to upend your ex-employee’s life – and for what purpose? Is it your intention to punish them even more than firing them has done?

      I understand that your company suffered loss of revenue and your other employees experienced mental distress, but I’d argue that your better option is to tell anyone who ever contacts you for a reference for ex-employee about this incident. That seems much more proportionate to the harm that was done to the company and its employees.

      1. Observer*

        Yes, it has the potential to upend their life. Because what they did was profoundly immoral. This is not about what you personally think about Covid19. It’s about the fact that the person repeatedly and clearly lied about something that caused many people a great amount of stress and very significant expense to the organization.

        If someone defrauded you of thousands of dollars, would you be so worried about upending the thief’s life?

        I don’t think that it matters that the person didn’t succeed in their aim – what matters is that they deliberately did harm in an attempt to get something they had no right to.

      2. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

        So? This person upended the entire company’s lives. Sorry nope. This is serious and doesn’t get a pass. I have zero tolerance for people who are treating this pandemic like it’s no big deal because what you choose to do in your life (where to go, whether to wear a mask, social distancing, etc.) affects others in serious and life threatening ways.

      3. Senor Montoya*

        Strong disagree. The badness of this particular DOJ does not mean “give a pass” to people who violate federal law. In this case, I do think reporting it is proportionate. It’s not just the $. It’s that the other employees and the clients were forced to suffer serious distress, both for themselves and for anyone they live with. Some of them may have sought out medical care (which is not free. They may have gotten tested, which in many places is also not free.) It may have rippled out from OP’s place of work — family members of employees and clients may have let their workplaces and social circle know, so that those people could be on the alert.

        I’ve got an immuno-suppressed family member. If I had been one of the employees or clients? and then found out it WAS ALL A LIE? I’d be mighty tempted to find that lying liar and slap them silly. And then report them myself.

  3. Nonny*

    I’d err on the side of NOT reporting it.

    They defrauded you, not the DOJ. Your org did not pay them in accordance to the new law, they never indicated that they doing it for the intent to defraud of the new law, and it does nothing but throw salt on the wound for people who very well could have had covid but didn’t otherwise qualify for testing. Maybe they did seek a health care professional. Does your org offer paid health insurance so they they COULD go to the doctor?

    Too many maybes that does nothing but harm.

    2. Archaeopteryx*

      If the maybes factor in that the investigation will surely bear that out. They should still speak up about this.

      1. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Yeah, exactly. OP should call the hotline and see if this even meets the criteria of reporting (maybe it doesn’t!).

      2. Nonny*

        They don’t have the resources for a lengthy investigation that could end up harming the business prospects of the business in the first place if it was to get out that they were attempting to prove that sick employees didn’t have covid. Doesn’t sound like an org I’d do business with, personally, or any business that would even WANT to accuse an employee of fraud just because they said had covid but couldn’t prove it (and didn’t receive the covid pay anyway) and stayed home out the safety and compassion of community they serve.

        Being young and dumb is life. Being unemployed over lying, absolutely. Reporting someone to a fascistic DOJ for allegedly attempting to defraud the capitalist machine sounds a bit… extreme.

        2. soon to be former fed really*

          How do you know that they stayed home out of safety and compassion for the community they serve? Nope, young and dumb is no excuse here, they aren’t a minor, and what was done is definitely more like yelling fire in a crowded theater. Trying to make this a political argument is nonsense. I agree with Alison.

        3. irene adler*

          Agree. Reporting this to the DOJ is extreme here.

          But I would communicate to the ex-employee that they could have been reported to DOJ. Especially as the federal gov’t is asking employers to report fraud to the DOJ. They need to understand the gravity of what they did. Or what someone might believe they were trying to do (score full pay while quarantining -but not having the virus).

        4. Uranus Wars*

          They didn’t “say they had covid but couldn’t prove it” they LIED AND SAID THEY HAD COVID WHEN THEY DIDN’T.

          There was no indication in the letter they did or did not stay home, just that they did not come into work. I don’t think we should speculate either way.

          1. Uranus Wars*

            Dangit I wish there was an edit. They LIED AND SAID THEY TESTED POSITIVE FOR COVID AND DIDN’T.

            1. Nonny*

              That’s lying to the employer. That’s not something you involve the DOJ for. Lying to your employer saying you tested positive isn’t a crime. It’s not perjury, and the only way it could be considered attempted fraud is if the org wouldn’t have taken the necessary precautions and spend the necessary money for ANY suspected case of covid, whether they tested positive or not.

              Third, they didn’t falsify medical records, which is actual fraud. Lying to your employer and not producing medical records isn’t.

              1. Observer*

                It’s attempted fraud, because they were saying it with the intention of getting paid for the time. Attempted, because they wound up not getting paid.

                The problem is that it’s a particular type of fraud with extremely significant effects – effects that the liar knew about.

                1. Nonny*

                  The LW this:
                  “our (now former) employees admitted that they had lied about receiving a positive diagnosis for COVID-19 (presumably to get paid leave through the new paid leave law, though we never ended up paying them and they never actually indicated that was the reason for their dishonesty). ”

                  The part in parentheses is the important part.

                  The LW assumed that they did it for the new covid PTO, but the employee never indicated that was the reason for their dishonesty.

                  So we don’t know why they lied about a positive test. Plenty of reasons though:

                  1. Actually had covid symptoms, couldn’t get tested

                  2. Had covid symptoms, couldn’t afford doctor visit

                  3. Had covid symptoms, went to doctor, didn’t qualify for test

                  4. Had covid symptoms but they were mild.

                  5. Didn’t have covid symptoms, but is high risk/lives with someone high risk

                  6. Didn’t have covid symptoms, didn’t have child care

                  7. Didn’t have covid symptoms, wanted PTO

                  The point is…. You don’t know. The employer doesn’t know. The employer already handled it by firing the employee for lying about a positive test.

                  Lying to your employer about a positive test isn’t fraud. Falsifying medical record is fraud though.

              2. The DOJ?!?!*

                Agreed. If lying to an employer is going to engender calls to the DOJ, we need clear cut rules around it. I think people over use that slippery slope argument, but this is exactly the right circumstance. There’s a declared pandemic, true, but no one legally established this new rule of beating legal trouble for lying about medical details to an employer.

        5. Observer*

          By that token, they should not have fired the person either.

          The bottom line is that what you are describing is flat out fiction. This person said that they took a test and that it came back positive. They said it repeatedly. They said it in writing, knowing the steps the organization was taking in response to what they said. Trying to spin this as trying to be “compassionate” to the community is just gross. It is a travesty, and is extremely upsetting to a lot of people who have actually had to deal with serious cases of Covid.

          1. The DOJ?!?!*

            Observer, you do realize that the employee could have been sick but unable to access a test. As you say, actually dealing with Covid. Across the board for people with lower incomes, it appears that if you get sick but can’t afford a test or there’s not one available, your time off is unpaid. That’s assuming you get time off and don’t get fired. MOST people who are getting sick can’t get a test.

            1. Observer*

              No. That simply does not accord with what the OP wrote.

              The OP was not requiring that they get a test, just that they are “under advisement of a doctor”.

                1. Anonapots*

                  I agree with most of what you posted here, but you’ve got to let this narrative go. The OP stated the employee admitted they lied about testing positive. They knew they didn’t have it. It wasn’t a matter of not being able to afford testing or whatever. They stated they had been tested and it had come back positive. So let this go. It’s not the case here and it doesn’t help with this specific situation to try to see the benefit of the doubt when there isn’t much reason to do that by the employee’s own admission.

      3. Mayati*

        Whether this counts as a crime might not have anything to do with the equitable considerations Nonny mentioned — assuming that the investigation would turn up facts showing that the employee didn’t have health insurance, for instance, and then assuming that it would make a difference to a potential prosecution, is putting a lot of faith in not only the criminal justice system, but also the healthcare system (including insurance and testing considerations). That faith isn’t necessarily warranted right now. How many people have been unable to “qualify” for testing because of shortages and insurance problems?

        1. The DOJ?!?!*

          Mayati exactly, and frankly in my experience it’s not just a lot of faith, it’s way too much faith. The truth is that our courts and our justice system is intentionally punitive and have zero to do with rehabilitation. That’s no secret, but the kicker is that every last person in the country and on this comment section knows it. Everyone knows that our justice system is filled with nothing but people who are trying to ” drum up” as many charges as possible, against anyone they come across and don’t like the looks of. It’s why we have to have t the phrase “drum up” in our common vernacular. Our court system intentionally looks the other way from, and literally hides, any exculpatory evidence they possess.

        2. Hazel*

          Testing! Our governor has been saying for weeks and weeks that anyone can get tested; just call. Well, it hasn’t been working out that way. You call, and the only way to get tested is if you have symptoms. And then the governor might say something different that makes you think, “this time I’ll get to be tested,” but nope. This is finally starting to change in some towns/cities where they’re starting to have testing vans at different locations each weekday. I haven’t tried to make an appt. yet, so we’ll see.

    3. Eh don't report it*

      I think I fall on this side, too.

      Also, getting the DOJ involved –– a whole federal agency!! –– feels way too similar to getting the cops involved, and that feels gross. Will whatever resolution the DOJ arrives at really restore what your business lost, or will it just punish the offender? These are not the same thing, and at this point, it’s possible that any further action will only bring more harm.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yeah, if OP’s company had actually paid the fired employee, I would definitely lean towards reporting this and having her prosecuted – but again, that’s because I would want her scamming ass to be punished. But in these times and with how serious this virus is, I can understand why someone would lie and then double down on said lie about having COVID so they wouldn’t have to come to work and potentially be exposed to said virus in the process.

      2. Lollygagger*

        I agree. I see nothing good coming from involving a federal agency. The employee lost their job in the middle of a pandemic, and will have to try to get a new job without a good reference. I think not reporting is the way to go.

    4. Claire*

      The letter says that the employee confessed that they had not consulted with a healthcare professional. If we’re going to take OP at their word, then we have to accept that that’s the case.

      1. Nonny*

        Consulted with a healthcare professional could mean different things.

        Here where I am, a neighbor went to the doctor with covid symptoms but didn’t get a test and therefore it wasn’t a covid consultation. Plenty of people have gone to health care facilities and were turned away because they didn’t “qualify” OR have health insurance. If you go to a healthcare facility and the facility refuses to see you, did you technically consult with a health care professional or no?

        This isn’t a matter for the DOJ. This is between an employer and an employee who got caught lying. We should not be encouraging employers to engage in scare tactics against the working class. Our employers are not our overlords. You don’t go to jail for lying to your employer – lying to your boss isn’t perjury.

        The DOJ covid fraud hotline is immoral and unethical and I would not advise anyone who considers themselves to moral and ethical employers to use it.

        1. Insert Clever Name Here*

          The hotline isn’t just for employers to report employees attempting to take advantage of the sick leave law. You can think that this particular incident doesn’t rise to the level of the hotline, but there are legitimate uses for it.

          1. Nonny*

            Never said it was just for employers; I directed my comment specifically TO employers who consider themselves to be moral and ethical who use the hotline to report employees.

            1. Insert Clever Name Here*

              That wasn’t clear when I read it — thanks for the clarification.

        2. Madeleine Matilda*

          I think it is extreme to call the hotline immoral and unethical. There are a lot of people who have been operating scams related to COVID who do need to be investigated (examples that come to mind are a group selling cards that purported to “excuse” people from state orders to wear masks or people hawking miracle drugs). People using COVID to scam others should be investigated and, if warranted, prosecuted. We don’t know enough to determine if the employee in this letter committed fraud or made a series of horrible decisions that caused both financial and emotional harm.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            There are a lot of people who have been operating scams related to COVID who do need to be investigated (examples that come to mind are a group selling cards that purported to “excuse” people from state orders to wear masks or people hawking miracle drugs).

            THIS.

          2. Nonny*

            Our entire DOJ, presently, is immoral and unethical, even though there are some otherwise good things they do. Even immoral and unethical agencies can do some good things.

            This hotline can’t be trusted to be used in good faith when it can cause more harm than good.

        3. President Porpoise*

          I understand that you feel strongly about this and I respect that. But actual financial harm was done to the business, whether the ex employee profited or not. Real people had their lives turned upside down and experience true terror as they thought they had been exposed.

          Maybe there wasn’t PTO or health insurance for the employee to take advantage of. Maybe they legitimately thought they had it because they had a cold and frankly, coughs are scary right now. But does any of that actually matter? Presumably, the other employees also are in the same boat benefits-wise. Maybe some had to go get tested because they were worried about having it. Maybe some are or care for those who are particularly susceptible and had to make costly alternative arrangements. We don’t know. There’s not enough detail in the letter and this is all speculative.

          What we do know is that the business and its people faced significant financial and emotional impacts as a result of repeated dishonesty from one employee. If OP chooses to report they’d be justified.

          As for who to report to – right now, it looks like DOJ is claiming jurisdiction, which is within their purview as far as I know. They’re far from perfect, and depending on your politics you might even consider them evil. BUT, they are staffed with career operative of all political leanings, who are trained in the appropriate steps to take and are unlikely to recommend prosecution in this case unless they find good cause. There’s simply not resources to go after everyone, so if they do, it’s likely justified. And the ex employee is unlikely to be arrested by some hot headed street cop who gets off on violence. Of the options for dealing with this, I’d frankly rather it be at the federal level than at the local level with all that’s happening.

          Anyway, that’s my two cents. I do understand your perspective, but I don’t agree with it. We shouldn’t let people get away with actual crimes that have actual victims simply because our enforcement tools are imperfect.

          1. Mayati*

            You’re right that we’re forced to speculate here. But the employee’s lies didn’t necessarily cause the business harm it wouldn’t otherwise have suffered, if the employee was actually sick with something that could have been COVID-19. If at all possible, a business should act on a presumptive case instead of waiting for a positive test result, especially since that waiting period can take a long time (if the employee can access testing at all). So if the employee had told the truth, and the truth was “I’m sick with a fever and dry cough,” the employer should have taken exactly the same safety precautions it took here. Obviously, that doesn’t hold true if the employee wasn’t sick at all, but like you said, we don’t have that information. The employee has already been disciplined and learned their lesson. They weren’t paid for taking time off. What good would a prosecution do? If the answer is “send a message that lying about COVID is wrong,” I would disagree with that message if the employee could plausibly have believed they had COVID — calling out and protecting others would have been the right thing to do in such circumstances, and the employer would have the same responsibility to deep-clean, and we simply don’t know whether those are the circumstances at hand. More information is needed before we advise the LW as to the morally responsible thing to do.

            1. Perpal*

              Without knowing the situation, given that the letter mentions panic, I think quite a few people and clients were worried they were exposed, and may have undergone their own hardships in reaction. Imagine if you had a special needs kid and were told they had a known case of COVID who they were exposed to been exposed to, and then you have to isolate, quarantine, possibly get your kid testing a few times…
              On the one hand maybe nothing would be done because there was no direct fraud to the government’s COVID payment system. On the other hand, telling someone they were exposed to covid when they weren’t can be extremely harmful and IDK, seems like it may fall under some kind of criminal statute of assault or criminal threat.

              1. Jellissimo*

                Even after the change of Alison’s response, I still defer to the side of report it. The department of justice knows they cannot get blood from a turnip, and this isn’t worth criminal prosecution, but this employee didn’t just lie once – they lied over and over and over. The severity of the situation became apparent to them and they continued to perpetuate the lie, which resulted in anguish and upheaval for their co-workers and the employer. The employer’s reputation may have suffered, who knows what ramifications this “potential exposure” had on others because this employee continued to lie until they could lie no more. If this was for one or two days off work I would say no, don’t report, but the employee allowed this to go as far as it possibly could before admitting their deception. That is a lesson that needs to be learned, and the employer needs to be able to have a clean track record from exposure for employees and customers.

                1. President Porpoise*

                  I am reminded of the people at the beginning of the pandemic who were doing covid “challenges”, like licking items in grocery stores and coughing on people. Even if they weren’t sick – well, the panic they caused was prosecutable.

                3. EventPlannerGal*

                  I just don’t agree that it’s reasonable to pursue this just to teach this person a lesson. What lesson do you think they’re going to learn that won’t have been communicated by being jobless with no reference going into what’s going to be the worst recession in living memory? And really, this is a pandemic – other staff members WILL at some point be exposed, and if this organisation proves that they will call in the feds to keep their clean Covid-free track record, that just seems like a huge reason not to report.

          2. Georgina Fredrika*

            just because there are victims, doesn’t necessarily mean what happened is a “crime.”

          3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            They’re far from perfect, and depending on your politics you might even consider them evil. BUT, they are staffed with career operative of all political leanings, who are trained in the appropriate steps to take and are unlikely to recommend prosecution in this case unless they find good cause.

            Great way of putting it. This is their job; report the facts and let them do it.

          4. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

            This is the OP. First, thank you all for your comments. I have followed Alison for a number of years and always appreciate her down-to-earth advice as well as the thoughtful opinions of this community. Now to answer a few of your questions: Yes, we do offer health insurance with reasonable premiums but the individual declined our coverage because they were covered under their parents’ insurance. Yes, we have a generous PTO plan but the employee had only been here a few months and had already used what they’d accrued in that time. And yes, we did provide the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area (there are several). It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19. The organization I work for is made up of some of the most professional, compassionate and empathetic people I have ever had the pleasure to work with so that fact that some may feel inclined to report is, well, uncharacteristic. To me it just reveals how taxing this experience was for so many here.

            1. Mayati*

              May I ask a clarifying question? Is it possible the employee had COVID-19 when they self-quarantined and continued to experience symptoms (due to how long it can take people to recover), but was no longer actively shedding virus that would show up on a test? Is the impression you got that the employee never actually had symptoms that could indicate COVID-19?

              Either way, it seems like enough justice has been done, and you’ve communicated to your organization that you’re taking safety seriously but that employees have a responsibility to be honest about their situations.

        4. soon to be former fed really*

          Huh? You are generalizing far away from the specifics of this situation.

        5. The DOJ?!?!*

          “We should not be encouraging employers to engage in scare tactics against the working class.”

          Yup.

          “The DOJ covid fraud hotline is immoral and unethical”

          Double yup.

    5. CeeKee*

      I agree with you. And this is probably more political than is encouraged in this forum, but it really does factor heavily in my response here: I especially wouldn’t report this kind of thing to this *particular* DOJ, whose motives have been murky in general, and whose execution of its mission has been questionable at best.

      3. Marny*

        Yup, I said the same thing below. I don’t trust this particular DOJ’s “fraud hotline” as anything other than a way to justify ending pandemic assistance by claiming too much abuse of the assistance.

        2. Mayati*

          Exactly. Ugh, the fact that this is such a reasonable suspicion to have these days is disheartening.

    6. Anon for this*

      Alison, it may be worth weighing in on this thread since it’s starting to devolve into political motivations…

        1. Anon for this*

          Yup, which can quickly derail into shouting matches which is not helpful for the topic at hand, which is why I brought it up.

    7. PartialToPort*

      I agree. The damage has been done. Reporting the employee to the federal government won’t undo it.

      They may just have been (being young and naive) thinking about some “free” PTO, or may have (as LW notes) some life circumstances that made them feel compelled to do this. It seems unlikely the employee considered the full implications of the lie.

      Especially since they didn’t get any pay under false pretenses, I wouldn’t upend the life of the employee over this with an investigation that could even potentially lead to a criminal record — something that will destroy their prospects for work in many, many fields. This is not something this person is likely to do again.

      Let it go.

      1. soon to be former fed really*

        Doesn’t matter why they did it. And the point isn’t to undo any damage,the company could file a civil suit to do that (cost of unecessary covid mitigation).
        I don’t trust this DOJ either, but individuals are small fish that probably won’t get investigated. Businesses need to discourage this kind of fraudulent behavior, because for better or for worse, people need employment at these “capitalist” entities.

      2. The DOJ?!?!*

        PartialToPort you’re right, it could lead to a criminal record. Or a huge fine. Or a series of fines. Or maybe jail time, weeeee! Or absolutely nothing, depending on nothing more than who answers the phone that day.

        I spent every one of my formative years surrounded by lawyers and judges, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that things you do are a crime if someone in a position of authority wants it to be a crime, and nothing is a crime if those same people say it isn’t. I can’t tell you how sick to death I am of reading declarative statements in comment sanctions about how ” This is a crime!” and “That’s not legal!” and ” That’s fraud!” It’s a crime when you’re prosecuted, and I wish people who haven’t studied the law would stop spouting nearly-always-wrong-legal-opinions.

    8. B*

      I agree. The situation is over. The employee has suffered consequences. Getting DOJ involved will NOT make your business whole. You will not get any more closure than you already have. Most likely, it will result in nothing. Possibly, it will result in you having to relive this episode for months.

      Most critically, you have no control over what happens once you report it. DOJ aren’t your lawyers, and they don’t work for you. They will do whatever they want with the information to serve whatever they perceive to be the public interest.

      If you really want to pursue this, talk to a lawyer about a potential civil action. You could recover damages for the harm caused by the employee’s fraudulent misrepresentations, maybe even including any reputational harm. I doubt it would be worth pursuing when all is said and done, but it could be more fruitful than involving DOJ.

    9. Tuckerman*

      I agree, unless the company used federal funds to pay wages of workers while they were closed, for cleaning, etc. as a result of the lie.

    10. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      “Does your org offer paid health insurance so they they COULD go to the doctor? ”

      You cannot go to the doctor with COVID symptoms unless you are (or reasonably suspect you are) ill enough to be hospitalized. Most clinics are not allowing people with COVID symptoms inside. You can do a phone consult and get a prescription for a drive-thru test site, or go to the ER. Those are your choices.

      1. My Brain Is Exploding*

        This depends on where you live. In my state it is not difficult to get a test and many are free.

        1. soon to be former fed really*

          Free in my state too, and now self-referrals are fine, no symptoms needed.

        2. Cj*

          This. I’m in MN, and was able to get a test in late March with the results the next day.

      2. Terra*

        As someone who has been sick with (presumably) COVID-19 and lost people in my community to this virus, it sickens the heart to see people taking advantage of this. That said… I was sick for 3 weeks but was advised—as most people in NYC have been throughout—to absolutely avoid going to medical facilities UNLESS you pass a certain respiratory distress threshold or a fever gets too high or for too many days. So that means probably MOST people sick with COVID—like me—did not and would therefore not have anything to submit to any employer. I’m not even getting the antibody test yet, since (a) they’re finding current ones available have many flaws, and (b) since the thinking is now that the antibodys may not last or not be enough to prevent reinfection, to me it seems pointless to lull myself into a false sense of securty.

      3. CookieWookiee*

        Yep! Happened to me. Nobody would see me. I had to do telehealth and was told multiple times I didn’t qualify for hospital care because I could still breathe on my own (mostly anyway).

        1. blackcat*

          Yikes! I’m sorry. I got COVID in late March, and my PCP brought me in for out-patient breathing treatments (which likely kept me out of the then-crowded hospital). It made me feel HUGELY better, and they also sent me home with a pile of drugs to help with the symptoms (we had a friend hunt for tylenol for us and it was sold out EVERYWHERE, and it was a huge relief to be sent home with Tylenol for the entire family, including children’s for my kid). They were *extremely* careful with me, and I was so grateful for the care.

      4. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        Thanks for your comment! Yes, we do offer health insurance with reasonable premiums. We also have a generous PTO plan. We provided the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area…there are several and most take appointments, so no waiting in line. From our experience most also provide results within 24-48 hours. We also gave the individual detailed instructions on how to obtain their results, a process that other employees have reported to be “quick and painlesss”.

        1. Terra*

          I’m glad to hear this was the case, in terms of your company benefits. That said… if you are in a high-risk category (as I am) it would have been extremely dangerous to go out to any medical facility or testing site in NYC (we had 1000 people dying EVERY DAY at the time I was sick.) So, requiring people to risk death for themselves or any high risk family members… that’s would not have been reasonable. Leaving the house, taking a bus, walking into a building, taking an elevator, being in a facility in which sick people come in and out all the time… that is too much to ask of people. IMHO—even if your office is paying for it—in any area or time when/where the infection and death rates are significant or on the rise.

          (None of the above is intended to excuse any fraudulent behavior of the employee. But in NYC I can’t think of any safe way that a *legitimately* sick person could have complied with what your office requires—at least not from mid-March to June.)

      5. Observer*

        That’s not true in a lot of places. Even in NYC at the height of the pandemic (and I hope that stays firmly in the past!) that was not necessarily true. And in any case, that wasn’t even the issue – the doctor telling someone on the phone to stay home, with a note from the doctor’s office would count as the necessary documentation.

        I see that the OP has also added more information which pretty clearly shows that this person just couldn’t be bothered.

    11. juliebulie*

      Agree. The expression “call in the feds” gives me hives anyway.

      That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in justice. I’m just not convinced that justice will be served via this route. The employee has been fired. That’s probably as much justice as you can hope for under current conditions.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup, firing her, denying unemployment, and then declining to provide a reference in the future are all great punishments for this.

      2. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        I agree…the expression “call in the Feds” gives me the creeps too. It was too flippant given the nature of this topic and I do apologize for that.

    13. Mazzy*

      Does anyone have legal or HR experience where they can guess how big of a deal this will be? I mean, my company sometimes has investigations that don’t involve the DOJ. Does the DOJ mean it is automatically going to be a huge case? Maybe it’s only some forms and calls and the DOJ is fine with not penalizing the employee or even says its outside their jurisdiction? Maybe they’re doing this just to gather statistics and get a feel for what’s going on and don’t intend on prosecuting every person. I mean, is this even a crime?

      1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        Thank you so much for your comment. These are precisely the questions that inspired me to write this letter. It is highly unlikely that our organization would take this step is but the “what would happen if we did?” question is something I’d love to see answered here.

    14. OP of "My employee lied about COVID-19"*

      I posted this below but maybe it fits better in this thread?
      This is the OP. First, thank you all for your comments. I have followed Alison for a number of years and always appreciate her down-to-earth advice as well as the thoughtful opinions of this community. Now to answer a few of your questions: Yes, we do offer health insurance with reasonable premiums but the individual declined our coverage because they were covered under their parents’ insurance. Yes, we have a generous PTO plan but the employee had only been here a few months and had already used what they’d accrued in that time. And yes, we did provide the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area (there are several). It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19. The organization I work for is made up of some of the most professional, compassionate and empathetic people I have ever had the pleasure to work with so that fact that some may feel inclined to report is, well, uncharacteristic. To me it just reveals how taxing this experience was for so many here.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Wow.

        Just….wow.

        I do think it’s worth talking about how your organization plans to address this in the event they ever get a call from a prospective employer of this person doing a background or reference check. While I am generally in favor of not having mistakes follow you forever, I feel like this is so egregious that if I were a potential employer of this person I would want to know.

    15. Senor Montoya*

      No, they did not defraud the DOJ. They violated a federal law (or regulation, IANAL). They defrauded the OP’s employer. And they caused a lot of SERIOUS trouble for a lot of people, not limited to the OP’s employees and clients.

    16. another Hero*

      Hard agree. The goal of reporting would be punitive only and wouldn’t benefit the org in any way. Losing the job is an appropriate and sufficient consequence imo.

    17. TheDOJ?!?!*

      I genuinely couldn’t agree more with not reporting something work-related, and in the realm of lying about an illness for time off, to the friggin’ DOJ, for Pete’s sake. I don’t expect my employer to have the option to sick the racist, violent, US authorities on me if I tell them a lie like that, and I don’t want to live in a country where I do have to expect that.

      I didn’t call the police just last night when something extremely squinky was going on outside my window; instead I waited and watched to make sure everything was all right. Because, you know, I’m not keen on people being shot because some pansy cop had a feeling, or got a little nervous, or whatever. And because I live in the real world, and I know that that could easily happen. And that was technically an actual crime. In the LW’s case, the company seems to be making assumptions about a motive which are more than likely wrong, before anyone’s established for certain that an actual crime was committed. Just my two cents: people call in to work sick when they’re not really sick all the time, so when was it actually, legally established that lying about having Coronavirus was different than lying about having a cold? Plenty of people who call in sick get paid for the time off, so the problem must be about the specific disease they lied about. Ok cool, so does that mean I can lie about having a cold, but if I say I have diabetes I get fined, and if I say cancer, I go to jail????

      There’s a high likelihood that this employee believed they were infected but was unable to access a test. There’s an EXTREMELY high likelihood that even if they could access a test, the test was cost prohibative. I’m basing that on what I personally consider a high likelihood, applied to the numbers I’m reading about how much a test costs, who can get one, who can’t, and how long the wait is, not on my random feelin’s.

      I’m ready to start living in the real world, where we look at everything through the filter of reality. Don’t f@cking call ANY authorities unless it’s absolutely necessary. Our country is riddled with frustrated, angry people in positions of minor authority. They spend their days harassing people just like us who can’t defend themselves. Please don’t call any of us to their attention unless you have no other choice, even if we’re not perfect.

      1. Observer*

        This is total fiction. If you read what the OP added – and you post is after their comments, you can see that it’s just not possible. They had access to tests and simply did not do it. It doesn’t really matter why – they COULD have and CHOSE not to, all the while causing SERIOUS problems for others.

        1. The DOJ?!?!*

          What’s fiction? The concept that I talk to my disabled clients all over the country every single day, so I have a really really good idea of how unlikely it is that someone that young AND abled could actually readily get a test from either their doctor or a testing site? Or maybe you mean it’s fiction that the US authorities are just storm troopers who love to ruin lives?

          The OP said the employee was directed to a free testing site, not that any appointments or tests were available. I know we’re supposed to take LWs at their word, but are we not allowed to be realistic or rational?

          I just can’t get into it any more frankly. I’ll be honest, it’s my job to remain rational and even keeled, while I deal with justifiably hysterical people all day, every day. Somehow this letter and a bunch of the “call the storm troopers, me likey schadenfreude!” responses have pushed me over the edge. For once I really don’t care how I sound or come off! The instinct to get someone “in trouble” is pervasive in this country. It’s been bred into people for decades, and it’s infantile and disgusting. And if I were wrong, I wouldn’t have to listen to/read so many adults using/writing the phrase “get in trouble” then would I? Or “big girl pants” ugh or “grown up job” puke.

          Frankly I’m tired of people. I estimate that on top of everything else, I now also field roughly 14 instances per day of a disabled person who cannot afford or access a test, who is sick, and who is in the process of being fired. To be clear, I mean that they are being fired specifically FOR being sick. If you don’t see those things happening around you at work, if you can’t imagine that this is going on all day every day all across the country, congrats, you live a relatively stress free, middle class life. All I know is that some kid who probably actually had symptoms lied to their boss, and I hope they never see the dozens of people here who are rubbing their hands together at the thought of them going to JAIL.

          Gross

      2. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

        Just my two cents: people call in to work sick when they’re not really sick all the time, so when was it actually, legally established that lying about having Coronavirus was different than lying about having a cold? Plenty of people who call in sick get paid for the time off, so the problem must be about the specific disease they lied about.

        Very late to the thread, but bear with me. While I see where you’re coming from, almost nothing else you would call in fake-sick for would have public health ramifications for the people you work with. Unless you called in sick with symptoms of Ebola. I’m exaggerating there, but yeah, most people’s abuse of PTO usually doesn’t involve notifiable or reportable disease.

        Is it illegal to lie about having a notifiable disease? That’s a good question. Even if it isn’t explicitly illegal, the chain reaction that it kicks off is still a far different ballgame than any other type of medical lie.

  4. Archaeopteryx*

    I agree that they should be reported. If you would report someone older or someone to whom you’re less sympathetic, they should be treated the same way; being naïve enough to not realize how serious it is the lie about pandemic related things during a pandemic is not an excuse.

  5. Mayati*

    Is it possible the employee had COVID-type symptoms (and might have been unable to access healthcare or testing), or was it just a blatant lie when they weren’t at risk of spreading anything?

    1. Malarkey01*

      This is my follow up question before reporting. Did your place of business have a mechanism for calling in sick without a positive test? Could they have used regular sick leave to stay home if feeling unwell (which is to everyone’s benefit) and could they get tested easily in your area?

      While lying is absolutely lying I have also worked at a place that required a doctors note for a 2 day absence and it takes at least 3 days to get an appointment so I was usually screwed if I was sick.

      1. Terra*

        The think about requiring a doctors note during the pandemic… here in NYC for most of this time, that was IMPOSSIBLE. All doctors offices were closed, and the hospitals were begging people: Please don’t come here unless you can’t breathe or have a sustained super high fever—no matter how sick you otherwise feel or are. So having a rule that is not possible to comply with… eesh.

    2. Annony*

      That is exactly what I was wondering. Did they genuinely believe that they had COVID but were unable or unwilling to jump though the hoops to get an actual test? Or did they feel fine and lied to get paid time off? Those are two very different scenarios. If they just didn’t get tested but had symptoms, I would not report it. Sterilizing the work place and informing coworkers and clients is the right thing to do when there is a suspected case anyway, regardless of whether they got tested or not. They should have been honest about not getting tested but your response would not have been that different.

      1. Metadata minion*

        Yeah, I agree; whether or not the employee was actually sick changes my reaction significantly.

    3. soon to be former fed really*

      Couldn’t an adult have just said this if this was the case? Most workplaces don’t want people with symptoms reporting for duty either.

    4. Batgirl*

      It seemed to me like the OP’s company tried to get some kind of mitigating explanation but the employee didn’t have one.

    5. The DOJ?!?!*

      It’s not just possible the employee couldn’t access a test. Statistically, it’s almost a certainty.

      I live in the Bay Area, as in, I can see one of the bays out of my window. You’d think I could access a test here right? Since I’m one of those horrible, elite liberals have n CA? My rep just emailed yesterday that there are no appts for tests within 50 in the next two weeks, which is as far as they’re going out.I

      I know literally dozens of people who are sick. Almost none can access a test. Almost all are required to take a test for paid time off.

      1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        I am so sorry the testing situation is so dire in CA. Where we are there are several free testing sites and most people get tested within 24 hours of scheduling. Results are typically available within 24-48 hours, though it was more like 72 hours when this situation occurred.

        1. The DOJ?!?!*

          OP where is that? If there are tests available for people with symptoms, who don’t need hospitalization, which they can order themselves, then I definitively have people who will drive to your location, no matter where in the US you are. I absolutely know at least some people who can’t get tested, and who will be within driving distance of you, wherever you are in the country.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I’m going to assume the OP doesn’t want to identify her location because people generally want to preserve their anonymity when they write in here. Please take her at her word and leave this here.

            1. The DOJ?!?!*

              It sounds like you think I was being sarcastic when I asked. I have dozens of sick people who can’t get tested, I just wanted to know if there was a place they might get help. Apparently I have time to vent my fury at people in this comment section today, my former refuge, as I read word-for-literal-word everything I hear directed at disabled people all day long. I for sure don’t have time to randomly sarcastically poke at people though. Also, I’m not actually capable of that, since I have a condition that makes me essentially clinically blunt and honest.

              If the OP has a line on where people could get tested, I of course would want to know where. If OPs privacy is more important, a workaround that would let me access the info would have been great. But I’ll “leave this here”, or step aside, as I do, as we must.

            2. The DOJ?!?!*

              I’m guessing you’re reviewing my comments so that they won’t post, though I’m not sure what was so wrong with that much earlier comment I accidentally posted twice that you had to remove both?

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                I didn’t remove both, only the duplicate. It’s still up; search for your name and you’ll find it.

                But your comments are indeed going through moderation now because it’s not okay here to be as heated or snarky as some of your comments had become, and because you announced you intended to post what you yourself characterized as an off-topic rant. I’ve removed those comments and future ones will be moderated, as per the commenting rules. In fact, I’m going to ask that you step back from commenting on this post altogether given some of the ones that ended up in the moderation filter (and in the interest of not having one heated person dominate the conversation). Thank you.

      2. Curmudgeon in California*

        That’s funny.

        I live in the South Bay. My roommate was possibly exposed, and found two walk-up “pop-up” testing sites in two weeks. Sure, the second one was in Gilroy, just this last Saturday, but they were all testing sites for asymptomatic people. (She tested clear.) I helped her find the first one.

        If I google for “covid-19 testing santa clara county” I get links like https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/Pop-Up-Testing-Sites.aspx, plus map links to other sites.

        Most of the SF Bay Area is within 50 miles of Santa Clara County.

  6. A*

    Don’t call the feds on your ex-employee. A) It doesn’t sound like they actually committed a crime, and they did not receive any fraudulent monetary benefits. and B) The benefits of calling any kind of cops, especially for a nonviolent offense that has already occurred and which has no risk of recurrence (since they don’t work for you anymore), are far outweighed by the moral and possibly physical consequences to the individual.

    It sucks that this had such far reaching consequences for the company and other employees, I’m not unsympathetic to that. Of course the employee acted badly, and they have been punished/held accountable to the fullest reasonable extent via firing.

    2. hamsterpants*

      The employer did lose money over this. Just because the employee didn’t receive financial benefits doesn’t mean that the employer wasn’t defrauded. Real people were hurt by the employee’s actions.

      What “moral and physical consequences” are there in reporting this? This isn’t “should I call the cops on the black teens playing in the park after dark in my predominantly white suburb,” this is someone throwing their whole company and colleagues under the bus.

      1. The Supreme Troll*

        100% agree with you here. This wasn’t suspicion here or assumption: the employee proved it themselves by finally fessing up after keeping up with their lies for some time.

      2. mcfizzle*

        I would disagree with “no risk of reoccurance”. Perhaps not at that company since s/he has been fired, but I tend to doubt the employee learned his/her lesson. And non-violent doesn’t mean “no victim”.

        Note: perhaps just being fired is enough of a “life lesson”, but unless the company really spelled it out for the cost of cleaning, etc, more of a lesson could very well be in order.

      3. Eh don't report it*

        There are always consequences for reporting somebody to an institutional representative of the State. State institutions are not designed to restore justice; they’re set up to mete out punishment, which is not the same thing as justice. Punishment often further destroys relationships and human flourishing, including (though not always) that of the victim as well as the original aggressor, in contrast w/ restorative justice models which emphasize returning relationships to harmony (through restitution and negotiation). Justice can come about, but rarely/never through the arm of the State.

        So yeah, the OP should think about the moral and physical consequences here. She should also consider whether the fired employee is a POC. I don’t think any employee should be reported to the DOJ (it’s too powerful a carceral organization) but the employee should ESPECIALLY not be reported if they are a POC.

        2. another Hero*

          Absolutely, and it’s worth noting that the company isn’t looking to gain anything by reporting. The only purpose would be punitive; they won’t be made whole.

        3. blaise zamboni*

          Yup, yup, yup. A lot of these comments are very punitive. I understand the impulse, because it is really aggravating when people lie for their own benefit, but who does a punitive policy actually benefit? Even if the DOJ recoups payment for the business (seems unlikely), that won’t take away the fear and inconvenience that OP and their employees felt. Nothing will do that. The employee is gone now, the other employees sound too professional to repeat this (especially seeing that the punishment is firing, if they weren’t already aware)…what good actually comes from reporting this?

      4. Nonny*

        The employer would have had to spend the same money for a suspected case of covid regardless of whether they tested positive or not, even more so if they were IN the office instead of staying home.

          1. Nonny*

            Because you treat suspected cases as if they were real cases, if you were smart.

            Not everyone with covid gets tested for it. If there was ANY suspicion of covid, including “I have covid symptoms” it would have been the same amount of money to spent to clean and sanitize… assuming they took actual covid as seriously as they do “employee covid-fraud.”

            In simpler terms:

            Employee: “I tested positive for covid”
            Employer: “Oh no! better clean and sanitize!”

            Employee: “I have covid symptoms”
            Employer: “Oh no! better clean and sanitize!”

            Employee: “I might have covid”
            Employer: “Oh no! better clean and sanitize!”

            Employee: “I was exposed to someone who might have covid”
            Employer: “Oh not! better clean and sanitize!”

            It doesn’t matter if they were lying or not – the outcome is the same… assuming the employer actually cares about cleaning and sanitizing, of course.

            Lying about it is not a crime. Falsifying medical records to “prove” covid like the LW’s example of an employee being reported is fraud, but the employee in this case didn’t do that. They didn’t lie under oath in a court of law. They lied to their boss, they got fired. Why does it need to be reported?

            1. Mediamaven*

              Ok sorry you are correct. But if they hadn’t lied about testing positive then the company wouldn’t have spent the money at all. So…..

      5. Marny*

        The harm was purely financial. They can sue her if they want. Reporting it as a crime doesn’t fix the financial harm. It should be a civil matter.

        1. hamsterpants*

          Marny, the cost went well beyond the financial. From the letter: “the cost to the organization was not insignificant, though it felt so when compared with the immense emotional upheaval that transpired: employees panicked, clients panicked, the leaders of the organization worked around the clock for several days to put emergency plans and communication pieces in place… It was a very stressful and uncertain time for all involved, as you can surely imagine.”

          1. Marny*

            Criminal charges against an employee will fix their panic how exactly? Civil suits can also include suing for emotional distress and punitive damages. Involving the federal government in a matter like this, particularly this federal government, is insane to me.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Adding no amount of money is going to make me “feel better” about a situation that scared the crap out of me. I am still going to remember the situation, perhaps as the years go by I might settle down some what but the damage is done. Money is not going to fix it.

              The court case could wander down the road of the fact that the employee was not responsible for the social upset/upheaval at that time, she merely brought the upset closer to her workplace therefore she would only be responsible for the damages directly attributed to her own actions. And how do you separate that out? Employees were x% upset to begin with and she added y% to their levels of upset????

              Leadership during crisis is a whole huge topic. However the nutshell version is it falls to management to take steps to protect their people. I’d think that the building should have been sanitized anyway. People probably would have stayed home during this deep clean process, especially if the building is large. Crisis costs money, there no way around that. Some things come under the heading of “just shoulder the load”.

              If people are panicking and having even further upset, management could look at how they handled the crisis and do things differently so their employees would have a bit more confidence in their leadership. At my volunteer job someone actually donated a deep clean by a professional service. (Small building so not an outrageous sum of money.) The deep clean was done before anyone even asked “What will we do about our building?”. This to me is the ideal scenario, anticipate that folks will be concerned and take those extra steps.

          2. Nonny*

            People are responsible for managing their own emotions. LW says they lied about seeing a doctor and testing positive, not that they lied about having a covid symptoms.

            If employers threatened to sue employees because they notified their boss of possibility of covid and employees and clients panicked, that would do nothing but discourage employees to NOT report their covid symptoms AND encourages employers to keep their employees and clients in the dark in order to not trigger panic.

            It’s not the employee’s responsibility to manage the panic of customers and employees. That’s the cost of operating business in a pandemic.

        2. Insert Clever Name Here*

          The financial harm is the easiest to identify, but considering the OP said “employees panicked, clients panicked” and this is an organization that works with children it doesn’t take too much empathy to see where there was non-financial harm done as well.

      6. Susana*

        Yes. The employee being young and naive doesn’t excuse the repeated lying and fraud. I don’t know if employee has health insurance, but still does not justify lying and fraud.

        Also, the likelihood DoJ would *prosecute* this is about 0.00001 percent. I still think Allison is right about *reporting* it – but they are not sending agents to her door. It might even be useful for legal/insurance reasons, if employer reports the fraud.

        And I don’t care if employee won’t be victimizing the company again. What if it was embezzlement? Would they say, eh, we fired the person, won’t happen again?

        1. Eh don't report it*

          But the employee didn’t commit embezzlement. They lied about a positive test, and while yes, it caused the company a loss of money and peace of mind, reporting the employee to the FEDS as the DOJ, especially to *this* DOJ, is not going to bring that peace of mind and money back. The only thing it will do is harm the employee’s life further. Will the company really be happier because the employee got punished?

          Creating what-if scenarios does not help us parse how to respond to attempted fraud in this context.

      7. Ms. Ann Thropy*

        Agreed. This employee lied about being positive, lied about having proof of being positive, and lied about getting tested. These lies caused the employer to incur expenses to deal with possible contamination of the workplace that would not have been incurred but for the lies. The reason for the lies is irrelevant, as is the fact that the employee didn’t gain any money from the lies.

        1. soon to be former fed really*

          But the company lost money and shuld be made whole, although it is unlikely it will ever happen.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Reality is though that you can’t get blood out of a stone. The employee is not going to pick up that tab, especially now that she is unemployed.
            If it’s a criminal matter she MIGHT have restitution, but that can be decades before they see the money if at all. (And there’s a lot of “ifs” in between that I am skipping over.)

            Unfortunately, there are many, many instances in life where companies AND individuals cannot be made whole. From a philosophical stand point, I tend to think the concept of being “made whole” is an illusion.

        2. Save the Hellbender*

          That’s all true! But lying isn’t illegal — and according to the post, the OP didn’t forge a doctor’s note or positive test result (which is what the hyperlinked DOJ case was about). People do bad things that cause harm to others a lot, but it’s not always a crime. I don’t see how reporting this would undo the stress and money loss to the company, and (as others have said on this thread) I think in this country it’s always better to err of the side of not involving law enforcement if your safety is not at risk.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Adding if this is handled in a lower or local court the tendency is toward leniency…. once the courts are fully open that is. This could drag on and drag on.

      9. MCMonkeyBean*

        But just because someone loses money that doesn’t necessarily make it “fraud.”

    3. AngryAngryAlice*

      Hard agree with all of this. I understand why Alison said what she did, but I completely disagree. I also appreciate that the LW actually erred in the side of not reporting (or at least asking first) and hope they stick with their initial impulse. I just can’t get on board with reporting this and think doing so would be morally and ethically problematic.

  7. animaniactoo*

    Eh. I remember being that young and dumb – that I couldn’t just confess and felt that I had to keep trying to keep up the front. Because I *knew* how bad the consequences would be if I confessed. And being in my delusional reality of “well things have already gotten bad, there’s no way to take it back, if I hang on to this ledge with the tippy-tip of my finger, maybe, just maybe I can save myself someway, somehow, and nobody ever needs to know about this.”

    And I did learn from those moments, because I am someone with a conscience and the guilts always stuck around.

    So here’s what we know right now: The employee never actually received any pay under the paid leave law. So it is attempted fraud, not actual fraud.

    What I would want to know before calling the hotline is whether they had any sense of how far-reaching their attempt would be, and whether they have remorse for trying this.

    If they were not overwhelmingly apologetic when they finally confessed, yeah, I’d report them. It’s unlikely to do them serious harm to have been reported, and it will be a re-inforcement of how bad the consequences *to them* can be for being caught – because clearly, they themselves are the only thing they care sufficiently about for that to be an issue.

    Otherwise – I would probably let it go since they attempted fraud, they did not succeed in it – even though the results were still costly to you.

    1. animaniactoo*

      And by serious harm, I mean life-changing can’t get a job ever again kind of harm.

    2. Mediamaven*

      I would reread the letter. It’s actually fraud because it cost the company a lot of money.

      1. TechWorker*

        But as people have said above, that all depends whether they were actually ill? It is infact possible to have coronavirus and not get tested.

      2. MCMonkeyBean*

        Losing money does not make automatically make something fraud.

        If I lie to my employer and tell them that I submitted a report to a regulatory agency that I actually had forgotten about, and then they end up getting fined a hundred thousand dollars–it would cost the company a lot of money, but it’s not fraud.

        1. blackcat*

          Yep, to me this is the same as that.
          Were they a crappy employee/human?
          Yes!
          Do they deserve the worst reference ever if OP gets a phone call?
          Yes!
          Could they possibly win a civil suit?
          Maybe, but it would be unlikely to be worth it (could employee actually pay a judgement?)
          Should they report it to the feds?
          Meh.

      3. Observer*

        No, not necessarily. If they didn’t get the benefits, it’s probably “attempted”, unless you think that the idea was to create mayhem. But unless there is some really compelling reason to even look at that, you have to say that ex-employee had no gain.

      4. Not So NewReader*

        I think that they are going to want to know how much of that spent money she herself actually got out of this.

    3. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      Very well said, thank you. I think my main objective for writing this was to find out of anyone actually knows what would happen if an employer reported an incident such as this. Part of the reason we haven’t called the hotline to ask is that we don’t want to feel pressured to act as reporting someone just isn’t our M.O. But, as with most things COVID-related, this is uncharted territory for us so it has also been helpful to hear different perspectives on the relative ‘severity’ of this transgression. Thank you!

  8. Erin*

    Was the person actually sick? Did they actually suspect that they had COVID-19? It can be almost impossible to get tested. If they only lied about the test and not about the illness I’d let this one slide. It’s ridiculous that the law has a testing requirement when it’s so difficult to get a test.

    1. Erin*

      And definitely don’t call the cops on them! Have you been paying attention at all to what’s going on in this country? Sheesh. Firing them was bad enough if the only issue was that they were sick but couldn’t get a test. If they weren’t sick at all, firing them makes sense, but don’t ruin their life by calling the cops. You admit they didn’t actually get any benefit from the paid leave law, so no crime was committed.

      1. But There is a Me in Team*

        “Ruin their life” by calling a fraud hotline? This person is an [admittedly young] adult who chose to lie. Many times. Actions have consequences and the only person responsible for them is the ex employee. Besides, they may never investigate or charge the former employee. Even if they do, she will almost certainly get a deferred adjudication where she can be on a short probation-type program and earn any conviction off her record. Or just pay a fine and learn a life lesson. Millions of people have criminal histories and most of them find jobs. It’s irresponsible to spread the narrative that 1 criminal case ruins you for life. Murdering or raping someone, sure. A dumb attempted fraud- not so much.

        1. Malarkey01*

          The problem in this country now is that the consequences for many people far exceed proportional responses. There is no way to know if they will get a slap on the wrist or be made an example of. Criminal convictions absolutely have a bearing on future employment. This is being investigated at the federal level and is not the same as misdemeanor cases.

        2. The DOJ?!?!*

          But There is a Me in Team, are you serious? Yes, of course, ruin their life by calling a fraud line. Calling any authority in the US on anyone can unbelievably easily result in a literal lifetime of problems, the total ruination of that person’s life, the loss of freedom, the loss of all resources and money, or the loss of their life. I’ve been reading this blog for years and never commented once, but I’ve felt compelled to comment on this thread at least four times already. I am clearly officially sick and tired. Just because you’re exempt, for whatever reason, from a living a life in which any tiny false move (or none at all) can ruin everything, does not mean that everyone lives like that. Interacting with any authority or court in this country leads to devastation for many people. I know what I’m talking about, since everything I’m saying is doubly true of disabled people, and I live that life.

          Let me just talk as plainly as an 11 year old here. Stop calling US authorities on people. In the US, they really like to hit people, ruin their lives, steal their money and sexually assault them. They get off on it.

          Please factor that in when you consider whether or not it’ll be no big deal, or of someone will just get “diversion”, when you call a fraud line.

          ps Right off the top of my head I can think of three clients of mine who served sentences or paid fines without literally committing any crime (except for being disabled, which is 110% criminalized I the US). Three! And I’m so ticked off I can barely think straight.

      2. Observer*

        You didn’t bother to actually read the letter. The OP was clear – Ex-Employee said that they had tested positive but had never even visited a doctor.

        Even under normal circumstances, firing for blatant lying is a reasonable outcome. When the results of the lie are as drastic as they were, they have absolutely not claim to any sort of consideration.

        1. Lalaroo*

          I’m disappointed to read this snarky response from you, because I enjoy your comments. Yes, the letter said they lied about testing positive and visiting a doctor. The letter does not say anywhere that they admitted lying about having symptoms, or about being sick.

          A lot of people in this thread are assuming that because the employee admitted lying about getting tested they must have never had any symptoms or any reason to believe they had COVID or had been exposed. That’s an assumption that might be likely to be true, but it definitely isn’t 100% certain.

          1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

            Thank you for your comment. It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19. Just an odd situation all the way around.

            1. Altair*

              So they reported having symptoms, which may or may not be true, and getting tested, which was definitely not true. That’s useful information when evaluating this situation. Thank you for updating us, and for reading through the discussion and pulling out what’s useful. :)

            2. Aimee*

              Somewhat of a late response, but this description resonated with me a lot. In mid-March I started experiencing COVID symptoms, but didn’t seek out testing or advice from a healthcare professional because it seemed like such a hassle and wouldn’t change my behavior. I knew a) the tests had huge issues with inaccuracy, particularly back then and b) that, because I am in my early 30s and had no pre-existing conditions, the medical advice would be “if you start having acute respiratory stress, go to the hospital, but otherwise just wait it out.”

              I told my supervisor and stopped working for two weeks. At the end of those two weeks, I felt well enough to start working again… for like 72 hours. Then suddenly, all my symptoms were back. The next three weeks were characterized by a horrible pendulum of symptoms where I would swing wildly back and forth between “hey, I feel decent! Let’s get some work done!” to “breathing is difficult, I’m having constant distracting chest pain, and I’m so fatigued and full of brain fog, watching an episode of HGTV is beyond my focus level.” I am extraordinarily lucky and was in a position where my supervisor was okay with an incredibly reduced productivity, but I felt so guilty. I had no evidence that I was REALLY sick. Maybe I was just lazy and faking it. I finally convinced my PCP to request a COVID test for me and… it came back negative.

              I cannot tell you how tempted I was to lie about the result to my supervisor. I desperately wanted there to be proof that this was real, that would justify the 10% productivity I’d been functioning on. I ended up not doing it, but I seriously seriously considered it. Not even because I needed to in order to get the time off, but because I didn’t want my supervisor or colleagues to think that I was faking it and think poorly of me.

              It’s been four months and I am finally moving toward ‘better’, but I still have intermittent chunks of days where I cannot do anything — and that might be my new forever normal. I now have a whole medical team of cardiologists, pulmonologists, and neurologists helping me deal with the havoc this virus wrecked, and they certainly have no doubts that I had COVID-19. But, I still really really want that positive test to show to my supervisor, to definitively prove that I haven’t been taking advantage of their goodwill and patience.

              All of this long rambling to say: for many of us, the experience of this virus doesn’t fit into recognizable patterns of what being ill entails* and the desire to prove that it is really happening — to our ourselves and to our employers — in a concrete definitive way, is incredibly strong. What your employee did was absolutely wrong, and maybe this wasn’t their situation at all. But if their situation was anything like mine, I can absolutely understand (if not support) the thought processes and decisions that could motivate this seemingly “odd situation all around.”

              *largely because, as a society, we do a horrible job of engaging with chronic illness

    2. Georgina Fredrika*

      that was my thought as well – I wonder whether they had symptoms or exposure and figured they’d just report it as if they had actually tested positive, not realizing what the far-reaching implications of that would be (or that they’d be asked for proof). I couldn’t exactly blame them, I’ve heard about people standing in 90 degree heat for 3 hours to get tested, which is 2 and a half hours longer than I’d be willing to stand there for.

      If the employee was new-ish it’s hard to say since no one involved has a great sense of their moral conduct.

      I don’t really see the point in calling; I doubt the government would move forward on a case like this. After all, they didn’t even benefit from it in a real way – it could have a bit of a chilling effect on self-reporting if people feel *scared* to say they have symptoms without having the test to back it up (this isn’t saying whether you should or shouldn’t, though, I just doubt it will amount to much)

    3. Alex*

      Yeah, I’d agree with this. I think the most likely scenario is that they felt sick, tried to get a test and couldn’t, maybe felt better after a while, and handled that badly because they were afraid that they would be seen as overreacting to the sniffles or something, and felt embarrassed, rather than handling the situation with maturity. Especially once they saw the extreme measures that were (rightly) being taken and the widespread reaction to them being out with COVID, they probably thought it was better to go with that diagnosis than say “JK it was just allergies!” even though obviously that is what they should have done.

      I mean I still agree that they should be fired, but I can also see how a young person could get themselves into this situation without starting out with ill intent (no pun intended!).

      1. I'm just here for the cats!*

        I know some places had said if you have symptoms treat it like you do have COVID. But they weren’t actually doing testing. Maybe she talked with her dr office or health Dept. They said to act like it’s COVID and then she did but then she finds out she was supposed to be tested and she doesn’t have proof.
        However if that was the case she should have come clean and said that she was told x by so and so.

    4. Littorally*

      Yeah, this is a very good question.

      There has been tension between the advice to stay home if you even suspect you may potentially have covid, versus the ability to do so without a (difficult to get) test. Different employers have handled this in better or worse ways.

    5. Delta Delta*

      I am acquainted with someone who lives in NYC and in March believed he had it. Could not get a test. Got better around the time more testing became available but at that point it was irrelevant because he was better. Eventually got the antibody test which was positive for the antibodies. He can’t say “yes I had it” but he also is pretty sure he did.

        1. Alice*

          Yes — antibody tests (like any diagnostic test) have some rate of false positives. Depending on the proportion of true positives in the sample, it could be the case that most people with a positive antibody test result never actually had it.

          1. blackcat*

            For NYC folks, the rate of a false positives, even with a not great test, is going to be low. Once you get >10% of a population with actual antibodies, a positive result means you there’s a >90% probability you have the antibodies.

        2. Georgina Fredrika*

          it’s a maybe thing. Your body generates antibodies all the time, to any intruder, and you typically need a certain viral load to get “sick” as we think of it. Higher initial viral load = actually sick = actual immunity in the future.

          Someone could be exposed very briefly to COVID, develop some antibodies, but not enough to fend off getting sick in the future. They had COVID exposure, but not necessarily COVID (the sickness)

    6. soon to be former fed really*

      Not difficult where I am, maybe if a person is in a remote sparsely populated location.

      1. Sunflower*

        In both Philadelphia and NYC suburbs and city, I have friends who absolutely can not get tests(I have at least 10 friends in the last week who were in contact with positive people and unable to get a test). Everyday I get texts from NYC advertising a plethora of COVID tests. Maybe the tests are there- but you’ve gotta wait hours to get one and not everyone is able to do so.

    7. Observer*

      The problem is that they didn’t even go to the doctor, on the one hand, and on the other hand they said that they had tested positive.

      Keep in mind that the regulations do not require a positive test only that they are “under advisement of a healthcare professional” And that’s all the OP’s organization was asking for evidence of.

    8. OP of "My employee lied about COVID-19"*

      I posted a similar response below but it might answer some questions in this thread as well:
      Initially we absolutely believed the employee when they said they were experiencing symptoms and we provided the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area (there are several), as well as the process our local health departments use to provide results (believe it or not, it is quite quick and painless). It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19. The organization I work for is made up of some of the most professional, compassionate and empathetic people I have ever had the pleasure to work with so that fact that some may feel inclined to report is, well, uncharacteristic. To me it just reveals how taxing this experience was for so many here.

  9. nopatienceforbull*

    Definitely report it- or sue her individially for your costs. I am so sick of really bad behavior being forgiven due to being “young” or “naive.” This person was far from naive – and it cost you money, time, and trust. Let the chips fall where they may.

    1. Archaeopteryx*

      And the thing is, the benefits of leniency on people who are young and naïve disproportionately go to young, naïve white people.

      You can be clueless and be middle-aged too, so I don’t know that you should be refraining from reporting fraud just because of the employee’s age.

      1. Susana*

        We don’t know the circumstances here, but agree with you general on the racial factor. Only when the perp is white does the court say, oh, he’s just a kid who made a mistake….

        2. But There is a Me in Team*

          Totally untrue in my 20 years of working proximate to the court system. Almost everyone of every stripe gets many, many chances unless they’ve killed someone. That is how it is where I am (Mountain West.) I respect that your experience, or the experience of someone you know, may have been different. I remember when the Brock Turner case happened and everyone was RIGHTLY furious and kept saying it’s bc he was white. I kept having to explain that I have seen (and stats show) so many defendants get probation for their first full-blown rape. Esp. if young that’s pretty much the norm, regardless of their race of wealth.In fact, the ones with public defenders do better than the ones with private attorneys, bc the PUDS do trials all the time and are really good at it. I encourage you to look more into the stats, it might surprise you. (Unless it’s Texas or somewhere- still pretty janky in those parts.)

          1. Not So NewReader*

            That is what I am seeing here, too, the courts give people many, many chances to settle down and live a calmer life.

            1. EH*

              Have y’all read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander? The justice system in this country has massive racial bias and is creating an underclass of people who can’t get good jobs because they have a record. Look at the stats for drug sentences in particular, it’s horrifying.

            2. Altair*

              I second EH’s recommendation of The New Jim Crow. Such opportunities are not evenly handed out.

          2. Altair*

            Whether or not racism exists in the US justice system is another discussion.

            (spoiler alert: it does.)

            (Also, being told that male privilege is so strong that any man gets probation for his ‘first’ rape is not precisely a reassuring endorsement of equality.)

    2. just me*

      On the other hand, it’s very unlikely that a young, unemployed person has any money. So suing them might lead to a long, expensive legal ordeal with no pay-off.

    3. But There is a Me in Team*

      Seriously. I was married, living in another country, and volunteering at 22. Of course, I still did dumb things but your moral compass doesn’t change that much. This person would probably do the same thing at 40. Young people who have no consequences often turn into older people who have no empathy or accountability.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        We have no way of knowing how hard this hit her conscience. I do think that the company handled the problem each step of the way. Since she did confess that she lied, I would like to think that she learned a lesson.
        It’s the ones who say, “I didn’t do anything wrong!” and “They are picking on me!” in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, that cause me the most worry.

        1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

          “Since she did confess that she lied, I would like to think that she learned a lesson.”
          To me this would be the best possible outcome. Thank you!

    4. soon to be former fed really*

      Yes, this is reverse ageism, even though the perpetrator is an adult.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        While I agree I don’t like the reasoning that she is young and naive, that rationale does not have to used as part of the decision making process. Age can be set aside and other reasons can be the determining factors for the final action plan here (or non-action plan). A good exercise would be to pretend she is 50 y/o and how does the answer change if the age is changed?

        As a supervisor I have done this a few times. I swapped out parts of the person’s story and plugged in other substitutions. So doing a swap based on likability would go like this: No-so- likable Sue did x. How will I respond to this? Am I being fair? Well, let’s see what if very- likable Jane did the same thing how does that change my reaction? Swaps like this really made me think about how I actually would handle the situation in an even handed manner.

        1. Lalaroo*

          Also, I don’t think it makes sense to pretend that people don’t gain more wisdom and experience as they age. Heck, we already know that brains aren’t fully formed until 25 or later! Tendency to impulsivity is one trait that declines over time in people and could also impact someone’s likelihood of telling a lie like this. Saying “Oh well, they’re young, what can you expect?” is not okay, but age and life experience can certainly be one of all the factors that you consider when determining the appropriate consequences for an action.

  10. KimZed*

    To take a more charitable point of view:

    Perhaps the employee genuinely believed they had covid, but like most young people who contract the virus never felt ill enough to go to the hospital. Depending on where they are and when this actually happened, a test for a mildly symptomatic, low-risk-demographic person may have also been near-impossible to obtain. I could see a young person–inexperienced with taking leave from work and navigating hospital systems–avoiding seeking further care and waiting for the flu-like symptoms in quarantine.

    To me, this letter illustrates a dire need for a nationwide rollout of workplace covid safety standards and procedures for getting suspected cases tested. It was wrong for the employee to lie, but I’d be very careful about disciplinary action. You don’t want to inadvertently send the message to the other employees that they shouldn’t take time off for mild covid symptoms.

    1. Nicotene*

      Yes on and off the tests have been prohibitively difficult to get and they told you to just assume you had it and to quarantine if you were having symptoms. It doesn’t help that the symptoms are extremely broad and many of them overlap with anxiety …

      1. Aleta*

        Honestly, even a test isn’t a be-all-end-all! I was able to get tested easily in my state, and it came back negative *but* with a huge amount of hedging about false negatives. I was instructed to still assume I was positive and isolate accordingly anyway.

    2. yellow water bottle*

      This, exactly – I’m in a horrible situation where I suspect might have it, the symptoms are incredibly mild, it’s impossible for me to get tested, and without a positive test or fever I have to come into work or lose my job. So I keep my mouth shut and I just try to never interact with people if I can help it, never take my mask off, disinfect everything I’m in contact with heavily, avoid shared spaces as much as humanly possible, and hope that these are just allergies from moving to a new part of the country and not something worse.

      Do I want to be doing this? Absolutely not. Are we allowed to work remotely? No. Can I afford to lose this job? No. I don’t see any better option other than “be fanatical about sanitizing and keep my head down”

      1. Altair*

        I’m really sorry you’re in such a situation.

        You might already have tried these resources, but I thought I’d offer them. Your state may have COVID information or a COVID plan on their webpage. You can also try the Solv Health network, which may have a clinic you can reach and definitely offers telehealth visits for advice and diagnosis.

    3. Observer*

      This has nothing to do with the availability of testing. If the person was feeling too sick to come in to the office, they didn’t have to get a test or go to the hospital. The law does not require that, and the OP’s company was not asking for that. All they were asking for was proof that they were “under advisement of a healthcare professional”. But not only had they not had a test, they had never even been to the doctor.

      In other words a lie from start to finish.

      1. KimZed*

        At times early in the pandemic it could be very difficult to be “under advisement of a healthcare professional.” Hospitals in my region shut down non-essential appointments and schedulers would tell appointment-seekers to call back if their symptoms got worse. This is still the case today in hot spots. Add in the probability that a “mid-sized company that serves children of all ages” doesn’t provide young entry-level employees with great health insurance or sick leave and you’re presenting an impossible situation like the one yellow water bottle up there is describing.

        Of course the employee shouldn’t have lied, and lying is certainly logical grounds for termination. But the employee isn’t the letter writer. The employer is, and there’s a very decent chance that they’ve just created a work environment where more of their employees will come to work sick and possibly spread covid.

        1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

          I posted a similar comment earlier but to answer a few of your questions: Yes, we do offer health insurance with reasonable premiums. Yes, we have a generous PTO plan. Yes, we provide and require masks, sanitize-sanitize-sanitize, and we screen employees for symptoms upon arrival each day. We absolutely encourage (i.e. insist) folks to stay home if sick.

          We also provided the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area (there are several) as well as detailed instructions for accessing their results.

          It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19.

          The organization I work for is made up of some of the most professional, compassionate and empathetic people I have ever had the pleasure to work with so that fact that some may feel inclined to report is, well, uncharacteristic. To me it just reveals how taxing this experience was for so many here.

  11. AndersonDarling*

    I’d report it to protect my company. If a customer/client sues your company claiming that you had a Covid-19 employee that got them sick (or worse!) then you will have the back-up you need to shut down the lawsuit.

    1. Nonny*

      A client or customer CAN’T sue you for claiming your covid-suspected employee got them sick, especially you can’t prove the employee even had it. Otherwise, we’d be seeing a lot of restaurants and sporting events making you sign waivers like schools are excusing them from liability “in case of covid.”

    2. B*

      This is a real concern but the LW should talk to a lawyer about it. A DOJ complaint may be neither necessary nor sufficient to defeat liability in a case like that, so it’s not so cut and dried.

    3. Anononon*

      This doesn’t make sense at all. What “back-up” will calling the hotline give? That the employee didn’t have Covid? 1) Lack of a positive test doesn’t mean that the employee definitively did not have it, 2) the company acted appropriately as if they did have it, so there’s not claim there, and 3) other employees could still have it, thus still opening up for a lawsuit (not that there is one).

    4. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      We have since informed all clients that this was a ‘false alarm’.

  12. Lora*

    I guess my question is, what outcome are you hoping to achieve by calling the DoJ?

    Getting your money back doesn’t seem likely. Is the idea to have some sort of punishment for the person who no longer works for you, as an example for others? What specific punishment would you be looking for? If the answer is “a fine” this might be possible, but will be an obvious disincentive to report suspected Covid cases in other employees if they are not able to access testing.

    Typically fraud hotlines are a sort of mechanism to recover at least a portion of money owed. I don’t know how you collect money from an unemployed young person, unless you’re really sure they have wealthy parents or something.

    1. CTT*

      That’s where I fall down – this person is most likely judgement-proof. Maybe the company thinks that time/money it would take to pursue this is worth it to make a point, but I think they have to consider whether their ideal outcome is possible.

    2. Diahann Carroll*

      This was my question to. In addition, is this former employee a known liar who repeatedly did unethical things while working for the company? If the answer is no and this is the first real problem they ever had, the firing and denial of unemployment benefits – in my mind – is punishment enough. I’ve seen some pretty otherwise honest people do some sketchy things these past few months out of fear of this virus, so I sympathize with the desire to not be at work or outside if at all possible.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, there’s been a couple of times where I did not pursue something because I really could not answer the question “what do I hope to gain here?”. I found that I just wanted to move away from the whole scene and get back to life.

      I can understand people being very, very angry with this person. You know that stands on its own quite well. I can see decades from now, Tom runs into this employee, “Oh, I remember you! You caused the Covid scare at our company.” Some things linger and linger…..this can be more grueling than what plays out in a court room.

  13. Marny*

    I wouldn’t call the DOJ, particularly not THIS DOJ, who I feel like would love the opportunity to make an example of a person who tried to game the system and would use her, and the number of fraud calls they receive, as the government’s justification for stopping helping people and businesses during the pandemic. She tried to take advantage of your company. It’s a company matter. If you want to go after her for what she cost the company, that’s certainly fair.

    1. Womens Rea*

      I came here to say this too – this DOJ is notorious for setting up hotlines for people to report “violations” to support Trump Administration policies (I work in reproductive rights and this happens all of the time). I would be very wary of calling this DOJ because it might help to support the idea that COVID-19 is a “hoax.” It’s your choice as the employer of course – but I just wouldn’t do it, especially if you didn’t pay them for their fraudulent paid time off.

      1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        This is such a good point, thank you!

    2. Observer*

      This is not the first case of the sort. The thing is that if the employee didn’t get any money it may not be a Federal crime – the case I saw wound up with the Feds because the liar there did actually forge a doctor’s note and sent it in the mail. And it went from the employee in one state to headquarters in another start. So “interstate fraud”.

      Just for a sense of the scope of the problem – the company in that case was harmed to the tune of ~$100k.

  14. Ellie May*

    Reporting it, I’m guessing, is to facilitate the federal government seeking financial reimbursement of funds wrongly distributed to someone underserving. This isn’t the case here – it never got that far. I’d skip reporting it since there no need to trigger the recovery of funds. I’m not sure what reporting it would actually do …

  15. J3*

    I’m really surprised people are assuming fraudulent intent here. It seems much more likely to me that the employee had genuine reason to believe they had Covid and for whatever reasonable or irrational reason couldn’t or wouldn’t get tested and engage with the medical system. So, I’m not saying it’s great that they couldn’t follow policy and then that they couldn’t communicate effectively about it, but I’m not sure it makes sense to jump to mal-intent without further information.

    2. lemon*

      Yes, I had the same thoughts, too. It’s easy *now* for folks to say how an employee should communicate with their employers about suspected COVID, or it’s easy *now* to get tested. But… back in the beginning of the pandemic? It wasn’t easy. I could very easily see a confused, inexperienced employee who showed some symptoms telling their employer they had COVID before getting tested out of an abundance of caution. Only to find it difficult to get testing when their employer asked. Lying wasn’t great, but it’s not a federal crime.

    3. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19. Just a strange situation all the way around.

      1. Ellie*

        Your former employee sounds like a real waste of space… maybe they just didn’t really want to work? I, personally, don’t believe you’d be doing any wrong by reporting them, but I don’t think there’s much to be gained by doing so. I’d tell the story though to anyone who came asking about them later on – they deserve to have their reputation ruined.

        But you still don’t know for sure that they never had COVID. You just know they lied about testing positive, and ignored company instructions to get tested. That’s plenty of reason to fire them, but I’m not sure if it rises to the level of fraud since they didn’t receive any money. I don’t think you have an obligation to report it. I’d save yourself the hassle and let it go.

      2. Curmudgeon in California*

        So, it sounds to me that they are not comfortable with the medical establishment, or can’t afford it, and lied about it rather than explain why. If I had symptoms, but couldn’t afford testing, I might be inclined to say I was positive out of an abundance of caution. But I’m older, AFAB, and fat. The medical profession does not treat me kindly.

  16. Neon*

    I would be inclined to *not* report it, certainly not without a full understanding of how that report will be used and what the potential consequences are for everybody involved.

    Very few situations are improved by the addition of armed incompetents, don’t involve law enforcement unless you absolutely have to.

  17. Nicotene*

    My only comment is, any chance they did have symptoms / suspected they were positive but just didn’t get the test? I’ve had several friends who worried they had it but couldn’t get testing done, were afraid of the test (and/or what it would cost) or didn’t want to be on record as positive and have to “out” people through contact tracking. What the employee did was still very wrong and the lying was inexcusable, but if they had reason to believe they were positive I wouldn’t report them to the hotline over it (still would fire them given the extent of the lying). For a while the official line was to assume you were positive if you had symptoms and that the test wasn’t necessary – which was BS, but was widely reported back in April or so.

  18. Coder von Frankenstein*

    This is the rare case where I disagree with Alison, at least without making one more attempt to follow up and understand what the hell this person was thinking.

    I absolutely agree with firing them. And if you are convinced this was a deliberate attempt at fraud to obtain paid leave (or if you have a legal obligation), then yes, report them. But there is so much confusion around all this stuff right now. They might have called some kind of hotline, and been walked through a series of questions about symptoms, and figured the hotline counted as “under advisement by a medical professional” and the questions constituted a test.

    Given that the current administration is *ahem* not noted for its measured and impartial enforcement of the law, I’d want to make very sure I was clear on what really happened and why before calling them in.

    1. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      I agree. My impression is that firing this person is sufficient; there doesn’t seem to be a good reason (IMO) to escalate.

    2. BigTenProfessor*

      YES! I called to make a testing appointment and the nurse basically just talked me out of it and I got off the phone kinda wondering what had happened and if I should try to work up some courage and call back.

  19. NoLongerStuckInRetailHell*

    OMG please don’t report your poor ex-employee! With our unfair judicial system, you might get them sent to federal prison! Also, I don’t have much sympathy for your company. If you are having employees and clients onsite, your organization should be taking precautions as if any person could be infected and infectious at anytime, because they very well could be. And why such a panicked response? Did your org not prepare for this eventuality? Because sooner or later somebody, client or employee, is probably going to get it. Seems a little like closing the barn door after the horses have escaped.

    1. But There is a Me in Team*

      Nobody would go to federal prison over this type of thing. Have to write a letter of apology maybe. I know there’s a lot of panic and misinformation right now, but it takes A LOT to get sent to prison without multiple crimes/chances at probation and other programs first. Think serial sexual offenders like Epstein/Weinstein or someone with years and years of tax fraud like Martha Stewart. Although if her case happened today, no way she gets a prison sentence. that’s not the way judges are leaning now, for better or worse.

      1. Malarkey01*

        Not sure what state you live in, but this is absolutely not a universal experience- ESPECIALLY for people of color or people on lower socioeconomic rungs. The federal judiciary is widely variable based on circuit and time appointed.

        2. lemon*

          Yeah, the reason Epstein and Martha Stewart were able to avoid jail for so long is because they had access to some of the best legal representation that money could buy. Without that, your odds of ending up in serious legal trouble for minor things is much higher.

      2. Grits McGee*

        Martha Stewart was convicted on charges related to one instance of insider trading, not years of tax fraud. Yes, it’s unlikely someone will go to federal prison on a first time charge, but it’s not impossible for a defendant to find themselves facing a prosecutor who wants to make an example.

        But the employee isn’t going to jail because she hasn’t committed a crime. There’s no law against falsely reporting you have an illness; if you materially benefit from it from fraud, then that’s different, but that’s not the case here.

      3. Eukomos*

        You may notice that Epstein, Weinstein, and Stewart were all super rich? It’s not like that for everyone.

    2. Observer*

      Please, “poor” nothing!

      I’ve been saying that the OP should report it, but I realize that it may not be a Federal thing (the employee didn’t get any money out of it.)

      But the employee is NOT someone who deserves any sympathy or pity. They chose to repeatedly lie and in doing so caused significant damage. The people who I have sympathy for that the employer, who took this very seriously, and the children and families who were harmed!

  20. Alex*

    As someone not from the US there’s quite a bit here that makes no sense to me. Here in the UK those with mild symptoms would be seen as wasting the time of, and adding unnecessary risk to health care professionals. Unless you are ill enough to require treatment people are encouraged to order their own test (either delivered to their home and self administered and posted back or at a drive through centre staffed by people trained in administrating covid tests but with no medical training).
    It would also seem that requiring people to see a health care professional to get paid would mean that many of those in the lowest paid jobs, many of which are going to particularly high risk, will have no choice but to go to work with mild Coronavirus symptoms as they won’t be able to afford to see a medical professional. This seems as though it would be excellent at allowing much more widespread transmission of the virus and lead to literally thousands of preventable deaths.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, it’s not you. It really doesn’t make sense. This is why so many countries have closed their borders to the US.

    2. Ali G*

      The issue is that, in order to be able to take advantage of the paid leave act, you have to prove that you or someone you need to take of has Covid. So you need a test. If the employee had just said that they were feeling sick and needed to stay home (WFH, use leave or whatever), this would be a non-issue. The problem was that they attempted to get government subsidized paid leave without proof of infection.
      As others have pointed out, not knowing what leave options were available to them if they were feeling sick but couldn’t get a test plays a lot into whether it was an intentional act to get a paid vacation or a sucky situation that got out of hand.

      1. Alex*

        Sure, the post was meant of a general criticism of US policy rather than of the OPs company.
        It is simply nonsensical for a programme aimed at allowing those with Covid to stay home from work to require a positive test while there isn’t sufficient testing available for everyone with symptoms to obtain one and while obtaining a test isn’t financially possible for many of the worst off in society. If a government wants citizens to prove that they have corona virus in order to get the full 14 days off they need to implement a system in which citizens can easily obtain a test at no cost to themselves. Even at this point governments should be granting a smaller period of paid leave to those with similar symptoms, who go on to test negative, to give people time to obtain a test and get the results back or otherwise people will have to continue going to work until their test has come back, in case they actually have a different virus with similar symptoms which doesn’t qualify for paid leave, by which time those with Covid could well have needlessly infected several others.

        1. The Rat-Catcher*

          Yes, the entire world is watching us bungle this. About half of us want to do everything you stated and more besides. But unfortunately we are becoming more polarized with the other half with each passing day and our ability to accomplish anything is dwindling rapidly.

    3. Armchair Expert*

      This is wild to me. In Australia, it’s seen as irresponsible to not get tested even with the mildest possible symptoms, because unless we know about the mild cases, we can’t contact trace and tell their contacts to isolate. We have free pop-up clinics everywhere, most of which are drive-through so minimise contact between patient and health professional. When we get an outbreak we’ve had vans at the end of every street in a hotspot, with door knockers asking every single person in those streets to get a test.

      (It’s still problematic, though, because our ‘hardship payment’ covers casually paid workers who have to miss work due to a positive COVID test, but not casual workers who miss work due to suspected symptoms that are ultimately negative. Late stage capitalism and a pandemic aren’t the best of friends)

  21. I'm A Little Teapot*

    If this ex-employee is ANYTHING other than lily-white and born/raised in the US, do not report it. I don’t trust THIS DOJ not to abuse a minority or immigrant.

    Even if the ex-employee is white and raised in the US, I am hesitant. Normally, I’d say report and let the DOJ sort it out. Except we have plenty of evidence that this DOJ isn’t acting as they should.

    I hate this. I really do. It irks me no end that I can’t trust in the DOJ. And that damage is going to take a very long time to heal.

  22. Wakeen Teapots, LTD*

    I would not call *this* DOJ. I do not trust that you or the former employee would be treated properly under the law.

    I am sorry you went through all of this. The pandemic is horrifically expensive for business and said with genuine compassion, this is yet another cost of doing business during this stressful and chaotic time.

  23. MMD*

    Report it and let the chips fall where they may. An eight year old would know this was wrong. This person perpetuated a costly fraud on your company. This isn’t an I’m tired I’m calling off for the day with a little white lie.

  24. Anon for this*

    I have a special needs child and early in the pandemic one of his service providers emailed that someone in their office was waiting on the results of a COVID test. Though we were told everything came back negative, this meant nearly two weeks of panic and worry as well as time when my child was excluded from that office (which was closed) and other services because of the risk of spread.
    For those saying not to report, I completely understand why and I honestly don’t know whether to report or not. However, consider that through this lie, not only was the business hurt but all the children were hurt through lost services and most likely their parents lost time from work.

    1. Save the Hellbender*

      I’m so sorry about the stress that incident caused you, and I agree that this was probably similarly horrible for those involved.
      But I think there’s a distinction between “This was a really bad thing” and “this is a crime we need to get a punitive, racist institution involved in”. According to OP, while the lie really hurt the business, the person didn’t get the federal benefit — so I don’t think it meets the criteria for calling. The person who lied was terminated. That is a consequence for hurting the organization; do the feds need to be involved?

      1. fposte*

        Yes, and the example in the link is somebody who committed actual federal fraud, which it doesn’t look like this employee did. The feds aren’t, or at least shouldn’t be, the “I lied about COVID” police; the fraud would be obtaining federal benefits.

        And I’m with others in not being clear whether the employee made the whole thing up or if she was sick and didn’t get tested. If the latter, I don’t think you can conclude the precautions and shutdown were unnecessary.

      2. Anon for this*

        You’re right. Honestly, as I wrote this, I could feel the fear I felt for my child coming back and that drove my response. However, none of this rises to getting the federal government involved…especially this one.

    2. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      Thabk you for your comment. This is precisely why some on the leadership team are so riled up about this. Their job is to protect these innocent lives with their entire beings and they take that job very seriously. They thought they had put every known precaution into action and therefore feel betrayed by someone who was supposed to be on the same team.

  25. Delta Delta*

    I fall on the line of don’t report. I’d do these steps:
    1. Talk to the employee and find out what the actual heck is going on. Did they feel sick? Did they try to see a doctor?
    2. Explain the ramifications of their statement. They said they had COVID; the company had to take certain expensive steps.
    3. *Tell* the employee that COVID fraud is a thing the department of justice is into right now.
    4. Don’t call the feds.
    5. Fire the employee if it appears the explanation in #1 is garbage.

    I don’t know enough about COVID fraud, but I know a heck of a lot about crimes and criminal procedure, and I know that the collateral consequences of criminal actions are often disproportionate to the harm. (is this even criminal? I don’t know; the DOJ does some civil investigation, as well) Without more information from the employee, it’s clear there’s probably at least going to forever be a trust issue. Maybe you part ways, chalk this one up to a learning experience, and enjoy your sparkly-clean and sanitized workspace.

  26. AngryAngryAlice*

    There is no moral reporting a worker to the feds under capitalism. I’m personally of the belief that there is pretty much no moral reporting someone to the feds at all (with, perhaps, EXTREMELY limited exceptions), but *especially* in this instance. The feds don’t believe in restorative justice; they believe in punishment. And if I’m being really honest, I think all of these steps should be taken anyway regardless of a positive test.

    1. AngryAngryAlice*

      And to be clear, I don’t think anything the former employee did was right or ok, but I don’t think it comes even close to justifying reporting them to the government.

  27. hellohello*

    Honestly I pretty strongly disagree with Alison on this one. Since you never actually paid this employee for their time off, there isn’t anything for the DOJ to seek recompense over. The employee’s actions were costly to your company, not the government. Unless you want to sue the employee in question, I don’t think you’re getting that money back no matter what you do. And given the nature of the current DOJ, I’d worry making a report like this would primarily be used to bolster arguments that fraud is rampant and so benefits should be rolled back, which helps no one imo.

    (I also wonder if the employee in question thought they had covid but neglected/was unable to get a test, so resorted to lying about it. Possibly not, but I think there’s a risk of being overly punitive towards someone who acted stupidly but not in bad faith.)

  28. Eleanor Konik*

    Oh my gosh don’t report this person to the federal government! What happened to assuming good faith? I don’t blame you for firing them for lying, but reporting them accomplishes nothing worthwhile and honestly you have no proof that they were lying for the purpose of getting “free” days off. Maybe they couldn’t get a test. Maybe they thought they had their paperwork in order and that it would be fine. Maybe they did it wrong and just dug themselves into a deeper hole. They lost their job in the middle of a pandemic and presumably their reference. They’ve been punished enough. What is the DOJ going to do other than have one more case study statistic about how the pandemic “isn’t really that big of a deal” and “people are just lying about having COVID” etc. etc.

    1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      “What is the DOJ going to do other than have one more case study statistic about how the pandemic “isn’t really that big of a deal” and “people are just lying about having COVID” etc. etc.”

      Great point and absolutely contrary to what we wish to happen. Much appreciated!

  29. Save the Hellbender*

    Look, I am a big believer in integrity and I like that the posters on this site normally agree! But I think being raised in privilege is why I’m able to stick to honesty no matter the cost.
    Per OP’s post, they don’t know why this person lied this way. Is it possible they’re an unscrupulous a**hole who just wanted a vacation day? Sure. But a million other things could’ve been happening, and their position in society, newness to OP’s company, and a bajillion other factors could mean that they weren’t able to see a solution to their problem besides crying COVID (or, like other posters have pointed out, maybe they did have symptoms).
    Also, they didn’t commit a crime? They committed an inexcusable workplace offense and you fired them. The end.
    Calling the feds about this does not sit right with me. It wouldn’t under normal times (no crime! don’t make cops enforce capitalism!) but THIS DOJ? In this moment of national uprest and a pandemic? Don’t do it.
    I get it, other posters concerned about the too-large number of folks flouting restrictions. But you have no idea this one person’s circumstances, and we should all probably agree not to call the cops if we’re not a victim of a crime.
    (If I’m wrong and somehow this is was a crime please let me know).
    Also, OP, I’m sorry for the emotional stress this put you all through. Firing was definitely warranted!

  30. Barbara Eyiuche*

    Maybe the employee was sick and was afraid she had covid, but couldn’t get tested or afford to go to the doctor. Where I live, we were supposed to self-isolate for two weeks if we had any symptoms, but at first just having symptoms was not enough to get tested. I think I would not report the employee just because of this possibility.

  31. Beth*

    I disagree with Alison on this one! This person’s actions are obviously bad, but they aren’t related to the DOJ either. They didn’t seek to claim pay or anything else related to the law. They did cause major problems for your company, and that requires major consequences–but that’s already happened, they’ve been fired and presumably will get a terrible reference if you’re ever contacted about them. That’s already the normal severe consequence for a “did terrible at work in a way that caused major problems and/or substantial costs for your employer” scenario. You don’t usually get to prosecute ex-employees for the problems they caused you, even if they were very expensive problems (short of something like straight up theft, but this isn’t that; this is someone telling you they have a doctor’s note and then being unable to produce it, which has unusually large consequences in the current environment, but is definitely not as clearly a criminal scenario as embezzlement or theft). You fire them and move on.

    Just because the DOJ is giving you a way to potentially punish this further, doesn’t mean it’s right to go that route. Just because the person is definitely in the wrong here, doesn’t mean you have to subject them to the most severe possible punishment you can possibly wrangle. What good does that do anyone? It doesn’t sound like reporting this helps you in any meaningful way. It’s just a way to potentially punish an already-punished person even more. Under this administration in particular, I’d be very wary of pulling in the DOJ unless you have no choice; we know they don’t treat everyone equally. But even if that weren’t the case, it seems to me that the appropriate steps here have already been taken.

    Also worth considering: they lied about the documentation, but you don’t mention if they were sick (and you may not be aware, if they felt sick but stayed out until their symptoms passed). If they had COVID symptoms but couldn’t or didn’t get a test for whatever reason, the steps you took, expensive and stressful as they were, may still have saved lives. They should still have been honest about it, of course, and firing them for the dishonesty is still appropriate. But it’s worth keeping the possibility of this in mind when deciding what’s an appropriate level of punishment to subject them to.

    1. MCMonkeyBean*

      That’s a good point–it doesn’t really change anything other than how OP may view the situation, but if it’s possible they only lied about being able to prove that they had Covid rather than the fact that they were sick at all it could be that everything the company did was still necessary and worth it.

    2. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      “Just because the DOJ is giving you a way to potentially punish this further, doesn’t mean it’s right to go that route. Just because the person is definitely in the wrong here, doesn’t mean you have to subject them to the most severe possible punishment you can possibly wrangle.”

      Great points, thank you!

  32. Double A*

    Hm. Something I’m wondering is why your whole organization panicked? If you are open and doing business, anyone can be asymptomatic, so you need to be taking precautions to prevent the spread and a plan for what to do if someone does test positive. I know it’s scary, but panicking isn’t helpful and isn’t necessary if leadership is doing a good job. So the leadership needs to ask themselves?

    1) What are our prevention protocols? Are they effective? What can we do to improve them and enable people to meet them?
    2) What is our sick policy? If someone suspects they have Covid, there will be a lag between symptoms and test results — and what if the test is negative? What it’s it’s positive? Think through policies that will protect everyone’s health, and communicate them to employees
    3) What is your safety plan for when someone else tests positive?

    Because for all you know, the employee DID have it, even if she didn’t get a positive test. If she was sick but couldn’t get a test, she still very well could have had Covid. What are you as an organization doing to make sure people can get tested if they suspect they are ill?

    I know this is a super stressful time, but management needs to step up and have a plan.

    1. Save the Hellbender*

      +1. Hard agree that any organization that is open is going to run into a positive case. Doesn’t make lying ok or even better!! but my main takeaway from this incident would be that the org needs to be better prepared

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Digression, but your username is literally perfection. Snot otters are a national treasure.

      2. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        When I wrote that “employees panicked” I was actually referring to team members who worked closely with this individual, not the leadership team. Ensuring the safety of employees and clients has been our number one priority since long before the pandemic and our COVID-19 practices and procedures have been praised by local health department officials.

        1. EventPlannerGal*

          But again, the level of panic that you describe still sounds very high – you said this caused days of intense upheaval and distress. It sounds like you are a pretty important service and are working from your offices, so unfortunately depite these precautions it is pretty likely that you will encounter real cases again in the future. While obviously this sounds really distressing for everyone, it’s still surprising to me that it caused such chaos at this point – we are, what, four or five months into the pandemic by now? And your leadership had to work around the clock to come up with an emergency plan,* now, four or five months in? Is this the first possible case that the company has encountered, and is everyone going to panic again at the next one (and the one after that, and the one after that…)?

          For the record I’m not asking just to take shots at your company, I’m asking because I feel like this sense of panic is probably feeding your colleagues’ desire to punish your ex-employee. And I don’t think pursuing criminal charges should be done as some kind of hind-brain panic response.

    2. Marny*

      All of this. The level of panic described by the LW just shows how unprepared the business was for an employee to have COVID, which is not the lying employee’s fault. Were they just preparing by crossing their fingers and hoping?

      1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        When I wrote that “employees panicked” I was actually referring to team members who worked closely with this individual, not the leadership team. Ensuring the safety of employees and clients has been our number one priority since long before the pandemic and our COVID-19 practices and procedures have been praised by local health department officials.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      This was one of the most striking parts of the letter to me as well. This doesn’t seem like a well-organized workplace if it caused this much panic.

      1. OP of "My employee lied about COVID-19"*

        Thanks for your comments and questions!

        Yes, we do offer health insurance with reasonable premiums. Yes, we have a generous PTO plan. And yes, we did provide the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area (there are several). We also gave them the number to call to request their results, a process which other employees have reported as “quick and painless”.

        When I wrote that “employees panicked” I was actually referring to team members who worked closely with this individual, not the leadership team. Ensuring the safety of employees and clients has been our number one priority since long before the pandemic and our COVID-19 practices and procedures have been praised by local health department officials.

        It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19.

      2. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        When I wrote that “employees panicked” I was actually referring to team members who worked closely with this individual, not the leadership team. Ensuring the safety of employees and clients has been our number one priority since long before the pandemic and our COVID-19 practices and procedures have been praised by local health department officials.

    5. Sunflower*

      Thank you for this comment. You’ve really hit the nail on the head I think of the bigger problem here- it’s not that the employee lied, it’s that the organization doesn’t have a sustainable plan for COVID and the new normal.

      I’ve noticed during this time that people are directing their anger at the wrong sources- it is not one person’s fault they got COVID or spread it and it’s likely the first time you come into contact with a positive person will not be the last. The system in place is working against so many people. We can no longer plan for IF someone we are in contact with will get COVID, it’s when. Almost everyone I know has been in contact with a positive person (many did not test positive and/or experience symptoms so no need to panic!) but it’s extremely short sighted and irresponsible for an organization to pretend this is a one time incident that won’t happen again.

      1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        When I wrote that “employees panicked” I was actually referring to team members who worked closely with this individual, not the leadership team. Ensuring the safety of employees and clients has been our number one priority since long before the pandemic and our COVID-19 practices and procedures have been praised by local health department officials.

        1. Sunflower*

          It does sound like your procedures should be praised- because they’re very thorough!- but they don’t sound sustainable. As I mentioned, I doubt this is the last time you’ll come into this situation. Let’s say you end up with 5 more positive employees this year- Is it sustainable to close the building for over a week and have it completely cleaned while also paying staff to not work once a month until the end of the year?

          What happened after the employee reported symptoms and stayed home for 14 days and decided not to get tested originally? As Double A pointed out, what if she did have COVID? It doesn’t sound like anything was done until the employee said she tested positive.

          You mention the staff members were paid for being out while the building was closed but you didn’t end up paying the sick employee- maybe I’ve missed something but I’m not sure why they wouldn’t default to the same pay as those who weren’t able to work because of the closure?

          An A+ COVID plan is awesome- but it’s not the same as other emergency plans that are action-ed once every 40 years (maybe if that). Unfortunately, we aren’t able to eliminate risk, only balance it and it sounds like based on the emotional reaction from the resources put into the response that the company needs to re-evaluate the long term plan.

  33. MCMonkeyBean*

    It seems clear that they *lied,* but even though it cost your organization a lot it doesn’t sound like the employee actually got any benefit is that right? I’m not sure that would qualify as fraud, would it?

  34. Kara S*

    While I definitely do not think the employee should have claimed to be positive, I don’t think I would report this.

    1) What do you hope to gain from reporting? Is that worth the expenses in time, energy, and money? I’m not sure what the company could get out of this as the employee was not paid, does not work there any longer, and the costs related to sanitization/cleaning should have been taken the moment someone suspected they had COVID regardless of whether or not they had taken a test yet.

    2) Did this employee have health insurance, the ability to get the test, and a work environment that is taking COVID seriously? If the workplace is forcing employees to come in unless they test positive or is otherwise unsafe, I can understand where this employee may have been coming from. They felt unsafe, claimed to have COVID as it was the only way to stay home, they did not foresee the consequences. That doesn’t mean what they did is good but part of the blame would fall on the employer for not handling COVID effectively.

    3) Even if your company has a great attitude towards handling COVID and did everything they could, think of it from an outside PR perspective. If your company pursues charging someone who did not benefit from this situation to essentially prove a point, how will that look? Going back to point 2, if the worker felt at all uneasy about the workplace’s handling of COVID, they could claim they were forced to pretend to have COVID in order to keep themselves safe. If they are high risk or live with someone who is high risk, their actions could look justified to outside perspectives. It seems like a messy road to head down with very little payoff.

    4) How will this affect your current team? Do you think they will be less likely to report suspected cases of COVID if you pursue charges/investigations against the former employee?

    It’s also worth noting that here in Canada, we are told to quarantine for 10 days even if a test comes back negative. You are also told to do this even if you just have symptoms but never take a test. I don’t know if the same information is given in the USA but even if your employee was never tested or it came back negative, a lot of these precautions should have been taken. They may have claimed being positive in the hopes they could stay home, not expecting pay and not realizing the severity of doing this. Of course they should not have claimed to be positive when they weren’t but there is not much more to be gained.

    2. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      Thanks for your comments and questions! I posted this response to an earlier post but it might offer a little more perspective here as well…

      Yes, we do offer health insurance with reasonable premiums. Yes, we have a generous PTO plan. And yes, we did provide the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area (there are several). We also gave them the number to call to request their results, a process which other employees have reported as “quick and painless”.

      When I wrote that “employees panicked” I was actually referring to team members who worked closely with this individual, not the leadership team. Ensuring the safety of employees and clients has been our number one priority since long before the pandemic and our COVID-19 practices and procedures have been praised by local health department officials.

      It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19.

  35. Who the eff is Hank?*

    I’m adding my voice to the “don’t report” group. My family and I all started to exhibit mild-to-moderate Covid symptoms a few weeks ago. We were turned away from testing at multiple places– we were told that there was a shortage of tests and they were being reserved for people with more severe symptoms. I was able to get my doctor to order a test for me because I’m pregnant, which puts me at higher risk. The test came back positive, which means the rest of my family most likely has/had it, but we can’t get them tested to confirm.

    The employee already lost her job, which I think was fair. The DOJ doesn’t need to be involved.

  36. Llellayena*

    I’m on the fence about reporting, though I would recommend calling the hotline to ask what circumstances do warrant reporting and if yours qualify. There are too many people who report COVID-like symptoms to their doctor but are unable to get tested. They can’t go in to work, just in case, and they have to inform work of the symptoms, which whether or not it actually ends up being COVID could trigger the shutdown and cleaning depending on company procedures. Therefore the company money would have been spent anyway. The lying about the testing and results definitely warranted the firing, but i don’t know that it rises to fraud.

  37. Lobsterp0t*

    I do not think you should report it.

    They didn’t receive DoJ money.

    They lost their job, rightly so.

    Bringing criminal prosecution on someone for failing to succeed at fraud just seems excessive.

  38. Nancy*

    I work in government and similarly we had a coworker who lied about having COVID because she wanted to work from home. Most of the employees are teleworking however we’re considered essential and as such we need to be on site since we cannot close. The coworker who lied caused a panic, the amount of stress and anxiety I had was unlike something I never want to go through again. It’s difficult dealing with people who don’t take this seriously and on top of that being paranoid about every cough and ache because of what this coworker did was psychologically draining. I would report this person if they purposely lied.

    1. Save the Hellbender*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you!
      My only question is why law enforcement is necessary if there was no forgery of a medical document or illegal receipt of benefits?
      Totally agree that it sucks to deal with those who don’t take this seriously. But I don’t think law enforcement should manage every bad person or bad interaction

      2. Nancy*

        Fair point I think my response was mostly colored by my personal experience. After reading the responses I agree that calling law enforcement is a bit much especially if she didn’t commit fraud or forgery.

  39. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Yeah, I think I called this wrong, and really appreciated reading the comments arguing a different point of view. I’ve added an update to the post changing my stance and am adding a note to the top of the comments section about it too. (Thanks, all.)

    1. Lobsterp0t*

      Thank you for being consistently thoughtful and open minded, and showing that it is ok to change your mind and still be authoritative in your field (more so, even).

      1. Marny*

        +1 It’s impressive and admirable to be able to react to different opinions with a willingness to truly consider those opinions instead of doubling down on your own.

    3. BRR*

      I’m always so impressed when this community listens openly and is willing to acknowledge they were wrong. This one was tough and being fired seems like a fitting consequence.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      This is why I know we can count on you. If you find that there is an error or a missing step you speak right up.
      It only adds more to one’s credibility, it never detracts.

  40. Portia*

    Don’t report.

    Unless the former employee has a financial interest in the company you hired to clean and also played a role in selecting that company, it’s hard for me to see this as fraud. It was dishonest, but it wasn’t criminal. The big difference between the example cited and this case is that your employee didn’t forge medical documents and didn’t actually derive any material benefit from their behavior. Let it go.

  41. OP of "My employee lied about COVID-19"*

    This is the OP. First, thank you all for your comments. I have followed Alison for a number of years and always appreciate her down-to-earth advice as well as the thoughtful opinions of this community. Now to answer a few of your questions: Yes, we do offer health insurance with reasonable premiums but the individual declined our coverage because they were covered under their parents’ insurance. Yes, we have a generous PTO plan but the employee had only been here a few months and had already used what they’d accrued in that time. And yes, we did provide the individual with a list of free testing sites in our area (there are several). It might also be helpful to know that this was the actually the second time in less than a month that the employee stayed away due to COVID-19. The first time they reported they were experiencing symptoms and readily admitted that they had declined to seek testing or advice from a healthcare professional but instead self-quarantined for 14 days before returning to work. They came back to work for about a week and then this happened. Shortly before they finally admitted to being dishonest, they were still reporting symptoms which prevented them from returning to work, and at that point they did finally go get tested (more than two weeks after they’d first claimed they had tested positive) but they ultimately tested negative for COVID-19. The organization I work for is made up of some of the most professional, compassionate and empathetic people I have ever had the pleasure to work with so that fact that some may feel inclined to report is, well, uncharacteristic. To me it just reveals how taxing this experience was for so many here.

    1. Beth*

      I think you’re right that the inclination to report is tied to how stressful and taxing the experience was. It might be helpful to frame the stress as due to the pandemic rather than just this individual employee! Of course their lie made the stress more immediately tangible, but the reality is, your company is open and operating during an active pandemic; it’s almost a sure thing that these measures were eventually going to be triggered, and it was always going to be stressful the first time they were triggered no matter what the cause. The emotional impact here is probably something like 10% due to this actual employee (it’s reasonable to be angry that she lied) but 90% due to the entire nonsense situation we all find ourselves in (going to an office job isn’t normally potentially deadly!) I’m going to bet that if you and your colleagues think of it in that light, the desire to punish this individual to the max possible level will lose some of its intensity.

      1. AngryAngryAlice*

        Ooh I LOVE this comment. This is exactly how I would approach the whole thing.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Great comment. I do think the biggest thing that happened here was this employee brought the crisis to the door and in the building. Reality hit home. I think that sanitizing the building should have been done anyway, just because it’s the right thing to do.

        I don’t think that kicking this employee further is going to help everyone feel better. We live in unprecedented times. The likelihood of any of us making missteps/errors is pretty high. Granted, our missteps/errors are not as blatant as hers, but they are still missteps and errors. Your employer did actually handle the situation and that is the primary thing that needed to happen. She needed to be fired and she was indeed fired.

    2. Heidi*

      Thanks for the clarification, OP. Your ex-employee sounds like an inconsiderate jerk, and I hope they can fully understand how awful they are some day. I can understand why your coworkers are inclined to report. This type of lie exploits a very real and justifiable fear. It’s also a direct affront to people whose lives have truly been affected by COVID-19. I’m sorry you had to go through it. Maybe some day a prospective hiring manager will contact you for a reference for this employee. That would be a good time to share this story.

    3. Green Snickers*

      Was the employee paid for the 14 days she was self quarantining? FWIW, my company also has a generous PTO policy but we’ve added special leave related to COVID.

  42. Robin Ellacott*

    I went through the same evolution as Alison: started out thinking “report her, if she didn’t get government funds they won’t pursue it anyway” and ended up being reminded that there’s a non-zero chance the DOJ would use the information in an unjust (or worse) way.

    There isn’t as much current cause to mistrust institutions where I live, so that wasn’t on my radar at first.

    I do think firing her was the correct response, unless there is a lot of mitigating information that comes out revealing she really was sick but couldn’t “prove” it.

  43. Jennifer*

    I’m on the side of not reporting this and I’m glad Alison came around too. I think this employee did something terrible, but they didn’t receive any funds ultimately. Reporting this isn’t going to help them get a refund for what they paid to have the building cleaned or any other costs incurred. It’s just one of those things. The person got fired and I think that was the right outcome. They probably will also have difficulty finding something new since they can’t use this past job as a reference.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      They probably will also have difficulty finding something new since they can’t use this past job as a reference.

      I find that aspect troubling. Reporting is bad, but in order to get a conviction, there would have to be an investigation, then judge and jury involved. The bad reference bypasses all that; the manager’s word is essentially fact.

      If I were OP’s employee, I’m not sure I would prefer the bad reference to the DoJ reporting. At least with the DoJ there’s the possibility of acquittal.

      1. Marny*

        Even with an acquittal, they’d still have the bad reference. It’s not an either/or situation.

      2. Jennifer*

        Sorry, I just don’t see how that makes any sense. That’s how it works for any job. If you lie to your boss and potential future employers call for a reference, they’re going to give a bad one. I’d rather deal with that than the possibility of going to prison because some overzealous prosecutor wanted to make an example out of me. There’s a young black girl in juvie right now for not doing her homework, so that’s definitely not outside the realm of possibility.

        There’s places that don’t check references, or depending on how long they worked there, they can just leave this job off their resume altogether. It’s not insurmountable.

        It’s troubling that so many people seem to think reporting a non-criminal incident to the feds is the best outcome in this scenario. No wonder our justice system is in the state it’s in.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Neither @Marny nor @Jennifer is wrong.

          I’ve long had problems with the reference system; seeing it juxtaposed against a Federal investigation, and possible prosecution, made me realize that the court, even in it’s compromised state, still has more mechanisms and checks in place to see that the truth is sought and justice is done, even if even those are not enough, than a reference call, where the person giving the reference is prosecutor, judge, and jury.

  44. I Need That Pen*

    I have to agree I think firing is enough. There’s an immediate consequence to a poorly chosen action. Use this as a very stressful, but otherwise possibly useful “emergency plan” for the potential (and I hope not) that someone actually reports as positive. “Well, that last fire drill we had we did a, b, c.” You’ve learned how to do something, albeit by the seat of your pants, as has been mostly the case with so much of this pandemic. As for the employee possibly thinking he/she had covid, the employee stated they would bring documentation back when they returned which led the company to believe that the employee was fully vested in being responsible and caring for their health, and ultimately confessed they had none to give when pressured on it. I really think said employee was banking on you just saying, “oh gee I’m glad you’re better,” rather than “let’s find out where we stand with other employees’ safety.” My mind is going to lean toward the side that says employee drummed up a Covid story, not fully realizing the end might not be the way they’d written it.

    1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      This is my thought exactly. The employee started backpedaling almost immediately once informed that we would need some sort of documentation, they agreed but then gave various excuses as to why they were unable to provide said documentation. Then they went so far as to get “retested” (though actually their first test) and offered that documentation in hopes that we would forget about the initial “test”, but of course that didn’t happen. I think they just dug a hole they couldn’t get out of. Sigh…

      1. I Need That Pen*

        How utterly exhausting (for you and company). Now they get to move on to, “tell me why you left your last position.” That one’s gonna take some practice.

        I hope you and all staff are less rattled and settling back into whatever normal is these days…

  45. Lifelong student*

    I would not report for all the reasons in comments above- but I would certainly fight any claim the terminated person might make for unemployment benefits! This is a fired for cause case- and if you have to fight this, you are entitled to describe the cause.

    1. Jennifer*

      I wouldn’t fight unemployment either. I wouldn’t necessarily go out of my way to help them apply for it but I wouldn’t fight it. We’re in a pandemic and unemployment rates are high. Let the kid eat.

      1. Perpal*

        I disagree 1) not getting unemployment doesn’t mean kid can’t eat. 2) This person lied. A lie that actually has pretty serious consequences for people around them. They got fired for cause. If unemployment isn’t for people fired for cause, they shouldn’t get it. Otherwise it’s fraud.
        But, they may not file so perhaps it’s all just hypothetical.

  46. RB*

    Alison, you mentioned twice in your update that your concerns were with the DOJ. However, some states have their own reporting hotlines that have nothing to do with the DOJ. If we don’t know what kind of reporting hotline the person was going to use, maybe it could still be reported to their state’s hotline. And OSHA has a reporting hotline as well, which goes directly to them. It seems like there ought to be an appropriate place, given all the options, for this to be reported.

    1. Beth*

      Why is reporting needed here, though? The employee didn’t receive any government funding. The company had costs associated with it, but I don’t know of any organization OP’s company could report to that would recoup that for them. It was obviously a stressful scenario for everyone involved, but so is every day that we have to leave our houses and go around people, given that this virus is known to be highly contagious before symptoms develop and therefore anyone around us could be unwittingly spreading it–plus, once again, there’s nothing any reporting institution could do to recoup the emotional impact of that. All reporting could do is punish the person, and they’ve already been given some severe consequences.

  47. Hiring Mgr*

    Why report it at all? The employee was already fired, probably denied unemployment, didn’t get any money for this.. Yes the company had to outlay for cleaning..but at this point I’d let it go

  48. sarmeyer*

    I had a similar thing happen….except with closing down and stopping production…this person works by themselves in a separate area. We gave them a warning and told them companies are calling these types of situations in. I think he was scared enough to never do it again and I’m sure word will get around and no one will try it again. Young kid, guessing he wanted to take advantage of some time off.

  49. ampersand*

    Alison, I appreciate you changing your stance on this. I usually agree with you but when I read your initial answer, my thought was: no, don’t report! The current administration has made some disastrously bad (and harmful) decisions, and I wouldn’t trust them here, either. If we lived in a different time—or country—where government officials behaved reasonably, I could see reaching out to them to ask if it should be reported.

  50. CM*

    Ugh, I hate that this hotline even exists. People are complicated — some are hypochondriacs, some are scared to go to the doctor even though they’re genuinely sick, some exercise poor judgment in telling their employer they have COVID when they don’t, and there could be so many different reasons. If they messed up, firing them is a fair consequence. But getting the Justice Department involved and literally turning it into a criminal case, like in the linked article? That should be reserved for much more serious acts. Alison, I’m very glad you changed your response on this one. (Also, it’s not clear to me from the letter that the employee was never actually sick, just that they didn’t get tested at the time, and after the fact tested negative for COVID. Again, there are so many possible explanations for this that don’t rise to the level of a criminal investigation.)

    1. Insert Clever Name Here*

      The hotline is a catch-all for fraudulent activity related to COVID, not just specific to employers reporting employees so even if it’s not right for OP to report their employee (and I’ve come around to agreeing it isn’t thanks to the other commenters), there are still valid uses for it when someone’s trying to scam people out of their rent or sell them cards exempting them from wearing masks.

    2. Analyst Editor*

      Given that there have been multiple documented cases of unemployment insurance fraud after the stimulus was passed; given the ample incentives for fraud with this sort of thing and the apparent lack of resources, especially on the part of local jurisdictions, to investigate — I think it’s completely reasonable to have such a hotline.

      1. blackcat*

        Yup. At least one local small business is in hot water for taking a PPP loan, laying off all but the owner’s kids, and they paying them the entire salary requirement of PPP. So the salaries of like 8 people.

        That is…. exactly what this hotline is for! Actual embezzlement or fraud is happening with all sorts of stuff related to COVID, and while I am very much not a “call the feds” person, I think it’s reasonable to go after businesses like that one.

        But I also don’t think calling the Feds does anything. I raised holy hell to multiple state and federal regulators over Wells Fargo opening a line of credit without my knowledge or consent back in 2003. Nothing came of it. There was the big suit/settlement for these activities (which are super illegal) a few years ago, and my case was too old to be included in that (I think the settlement claimed these nefarious things happened starting in 2006). The only way I got it dealt with from Wells Fargo was getting my lawyer parent to harass their legal department on my behalf. This entire thing was extra egregious because I was a minor at the time they opened the account.

        So… my experience is even in a case of a business doing something 100% illegal, reporting to federal agencies does nothing.

  51. Annony*

    The employee was wrong and definitely deserved to be fired, however I do not believe lying about being sick is the type of fraud the hotline was created for, especially when the employee was not paid for the time off. From their website, it looks like it was made to deal with scammers pretending to sell a cure, price gouging, calls from people pretending to be the US treasury or a fake charity. I don’t think calling them will do anything except make you waste even more time and effort on this.

  52. Esme*

    I’m confused about why everyone panicked this much. Did you not have a plan in place already?

    1. Senor Montoya*

      I don’t see panic. It seems they did have a plan, which they executed. Just because it was a LOT doesn;t mean it was panicky.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        OP described it as “immense emotional upheaval that transpired: employees panicked, clients panicked, the leaders of the organization worked around the clock for several days to put emergency plans and communication pieces in place”

        I was wondering about this myself (that’s why I’ve added on to this thread rather than start a new one): I realize the massive public health and individual implications of this pandemic obviously, but I too was curious why “employee of company X exhibits covid symptoms; some areas closed for up to a week and deep cleaning undertaken” incites a ‘panic’ at this point since presumably (and unfortunately) it’s now a relatively ‘normal’ occurrence for someone within a company to come down with this virus.

        (I don’t think they did have much of a plan beyond shutting the building and cleaning, though, since OP said that they had to “put in place” these procedures. Wouldn’t a company of a reasonably large size (I infer from their mention of “the entire facility” and “some areas of the building” – clearly this isn’t just a 5-person company!) at this point usually have a pre-prepared communication of some kind that they would just need to ‘press the button’ to push it out to clients? Given that they have had at least 4 months to prepare for this so far!)

      2. Lyka*

        The OP is the one who originally described the response as panic, saying “employees panicked, clients panicked.”

    2. Triumphant Fox*

      I wonder if this was really early on and if this business is essential. I can see a lot of panic when we weren’t getting a lot of guidance and things were less clear.

    3. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      Thanks for your comment! To be clear, it was not the leadership team that panicked. Coworkers that had been in close contact with the individual took their entire families to be tested the following day.

  53. Criminal Prosecutor*

    You can report it if you want, but DOJ isn’t going to take any action because this is not a crime. Poor behavior, yes. Fireable offense, yes. Not a crime in any way whatsoever and certainly not a federal crime. This hotline is for scams such as fake cures, not this.

  54. Free Meerkats*

    While I’d lean toward reporting it, mainly because I’m a regulator and have no truck with knowing violations, I can see the don’t report side.

    That said, Sue this little shit to the moon and back for every penny you spent in response. They lied, in writing, multiple times and those lies were the proximate cause of you spending that money. You have the paper trail and you can document the losses. If any of your employees spent a dollar due to this, encourage them to sue in small claims.

    Yeah, you probably won’t get a penny from them, but it will be on record that they are a lying, scamming extortionist.

  55. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

    I don’t know about whether you should report it to the “authorities” or not, as a UK-er I don’t really know the nuances of how that is in the States so I won’t comment on that, but I wanted to add…

    … there’s got to be some motivation to doing this, beyond causing mayhem and disruption all over the place. From your OP and your subsequent post I’m wondering (I know it’s a bit of a stretch, I am just suggesting the possibility, not saying “this definitely happened”) whether there’s some issues in their life that have caused them to feel they need this additional time off but don’t have any more PTO to take or feel that they can’t raise it, e.g. mental health issues, physical health issues, a relative with covid or other illness that they are taking care of but don’t have access to FMLA, etc… it seems to me almost that they could have been in somewhat of a desperate position promising that they could get the documentation from a healthcare professional “in a few days” or “when I come back to the office” or similar… because that at least buys them a few more days… In this scenario defrauding the company/state or causing disruption to the company and clients I’m sure would be the last thing on their mind.

    As I said, I may be wrong about this but I’d ask you to give it consideration.

    It’s not something I would do myself ultimately, but it’s something I would have considered doing (especially when I was younger) if I were in a position that I really needed that time off for whatever reason and I felt I couldn’t take it off just by asking ‘normally’ and I wouldn’t have cared if it was paid or not at that point.

    I’m curious why you didn’t ask them about *why* they lied about this?

    1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

      Great comment. Thank you. These are the questions we have been asking ourselves. While we will likely never know this person’s motivations, I have run a gazillion desperate scenarios through my brain and end up in empathy most of the time. I can’t imagine someone would lie about something so serious without a proverbial gun to the head so I am definitely with you on this line of thought.

  56. I Be WFH with CAT*

    I don’t really think you did call it wrong, Alison … certainly not for two of the three reasons you gave anyway:

    # 1: The example provided by the OP of a previous prosecution doesn’t mention whether or not the employee was paid, only the enormous costs to the company and co-workers. Even with *this* DOJ, I doubt prosecution is going to be based on a few weeks pay for one individual. As the OP can attest, it’s the rolling mountain of added costs and damages that really matter. So, yes, this situation *is* appropriate for reporting to the DOJ and subsequent prosecution, regardless of the fact that the employee was not paid for time off.

    # 3. Even if the employee only thought she had COVID-19, she was asked multiple times for documentation from a medical professional/facility and kept doubling down with tales of being testing and having received positive test results. The only thing that seems to have been unclear to the OP (per her original letter) was *why* the employee lied, not whether or not she did lie … repeatedly … and presumably while her employer was having to shut its doors, send people home, etc.! That really doesn’t seem to have been accidental. So, again, something that really ought to be reported.
    —
    Re #2, I agree that the current DOJ is horrible and would not *want* to report anyone, but if I were the OP, I would because of the financial costs to the organization and the damage to its reputation, as well as the emotional, mental, and financial costs carried by those who lives were thrown into disarray, with weeks of stress and worry, for no good reason.

      1. beaglemama*

        Only damage I can see is if the fired employee were to bad mouth them and make themselves look like the victim.

        1. The DOJ?!?!*

          I think I Be WFH with CAT’s entire line of thinking here is histrionics and dramatic talking employed in an effort to justify a knee-jerk, suck-up reaction to authority, and an inherent anger toward, and fear of, the ill.

          There’s no damage to a company when an employee tests positive, it’s a ridiculous premise to even argue against, so I won’t.

          …”doesn’t mention whether or not the employee was paid, “… Sure it mentions it, it specifically says the employee wasn’t paid.

          “asked multiple times for documentation from a medical professional/facility and kept doubling down with tales of being testing and having received positive test results.”. What a strange argument to literally enumerate like it’s meaningful. Sticking with a lie for a while isn’t worse than telling it once, unless you’re actively looking for a reason to compound your indignity. Squeezing the word “tales” in there is quite dramatic as well.

          “That really doesn’t seem to have been accidental.” That’s just bizarre. Did a single person involved say anything was accidental?

          “financial costs carried by those who lives were thrown into disarray,”. Disarray. Didn’t we already complain that the company paid the other employees? Who’s life is in disarray? Btw, the LW left out whether anyone worked from home during this shutdown for cleaning (which they clearly weren’t equipped to do, if they had to hire another company to clean, and it still took days. Tasty workplace!)

          “with weeks of stress and worry, for no good reason.” Not sure how “several days” turned into weeks here.

          Seriously, ALL of this, and plenty of other comments here, are resonating as very familiar to yours truly. Many of these comments read exactly like the crap my disabled clients deal with daily, the over exaggerating of the consequences of someone’s illness or absence, the over-the-top ideas about how to deal with the “problem” employee.

          Not much has changed eh?

      2. I Be WFH with CAT*

        Based on the OP’s description of the event — “employees panicked, clients panicked, the leaders of the organization worked around the clock for several days to put emergency plans and communication pieces in place… “ — this event was significant enough to negatively impact the perception that at least some, and possibly many, employees and clients have about the safety and stability of the organization. And that is reputational damage.

        This would be true for any organization and for any crisis that disrupts operations to such a degree. In this instance, however, the organization works with children, many with special needs. This requires a very high level of trust from client families, more than is needed for many types of client/customer relationships. Within this context, at least some of the people who were affected by the facility’s closure and alarmed by the risk of COVID-19 exposure for their children/family will likely not regain their full trust in the organization itself. (Again, the org’s reputation has been damaged.)

        It’s worth noting that the impacts of reputational damage may not be immediately visible. Current clients could continue utilizing the org’s services for a variety of reasons, including the lack of other options during the pandemic, but could leave later. They could also be bad-mouthing the org right now to other families who go there, or to people out in the community. The org (or any org that goes through a crisis of this magnitude) should assume their reputation and relationships have been damaged and be looking to minimize losses, repair relationships, and rebuild trust. They *cannot* assume that all is over and all is well just because the immediate crisis has ended.

        1. The DOJ?!?!*

          Yes, I’m aware that the LW wrote about “panicking” and “working around the clock”, but since I can’t connect with the LW to talk about how dramatic and inflammatory their language was, I’m sticking to the commenters.

          I still find it absurd to even discuss how this could somehow damage the reputation of a company. Their reputation will be equally as “damaged” tomorrow if someone who works there catches it and can actually get a test

        2. EventPlannerGal*

          But that reputational damage is caused by the organisation’s RESPONSE to the incident, not the incident itself. The fact that everybody panicked, leadership worked round the clock to come up with a plan, they didn’t have the ability to WFH but shut down for days etc, are not the employee’s fault – those things would have happened if it had been a real case too, and being able to prove to their service users that the case was fake won’t change anything about what they actually did in response to it.

          Rebuilding trust here would involve looking at things like why everyone panicked so badly (were there no social distancing/mask/hand hygiene protocols in place if this person was working closely with others?), why the leadership had to work round the clock to come up with/implement an emergency plan (why was that not done months ago?), or why there was no contingency plan for people to WFH if the office had to close or any alternatives if that’s not possible. That’s certainly what I would be asking as a service user, not whether the person who caused the situation had been reported to some government hotline.

    2. Bluephone*

      Hard agree with all this. The colleague may have initially panicked but they clearly kept doubling down, causing all sorts of unnecessary, unsafe drama.

      1. JSPA*

        It sounds like the cleaning and the shutdown were precipitated from the original statement. Which of course would make the stakes of admitting the lie higher, and the coming clean, harder.

        1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

          I believe this is precisely what happened…we informed them that we had closed the facility, had begun performing deep cleaning, etc. and asked specifically for them to confirm they had “tested positive for COVID-19” and that is when they started backpedaling. Initially we had no reason to not take this person at their word (and admittedly, we are a pretty trusting and lenient org.) but it now appears that they’d dug a giant hole that they just couldn’t get out of.

          1. Ellie*

            Well, they could have said they had just assumed they had COVID, gone and gotten a test, and then told you they were wrong about it, so sorry, etc. That they didn’t do that makes me think they were purely taking you for a ride and were never sick at all. But that just means they were dumb as well as dishonest, so it’s a good thing you fired them.

    3. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      On the contrary, reporting to the DOJ will tarnish the company’s reputation. If the fired employee left a negative Glassdoor comment, I would hesitate to apply for a company that overreacted in such a petty and vindictive way, while others interviewing there would probably ask about it.

    4. JSPA*

      Things I don’t know:

      1. Is it governmental fraud if the filing never happened?

      Things I would suggest be investigated first:

      A. would there be some small claims court recourse, or some reparative justice route here, that also sees damages made right, in part, in some way?

      B. is it possible the employee did have Covid, or knew they’d been exposed…meaning the cleaning was appropriate, even without a documented positive?

      C. Or that the employee was otherwise sick enough that they were making decisions on the basis of a reasonable belief that they had Covid, but did not find a way to get tested? And was it legitimately a barrier, to get tested, there / then? (Especially if someone doesn’t have a car, or is too sick to drive, and does not have a low risk and/or already exposed household member willing to get them to a testing site, the whole “just get tested” presumption is especially difficult.)

      D. Was there a LWOP option?

      E. Did the employee potentially correctly identify themselves or a household member as “high risk,” and take the only route they understood to exist, as a way to keep their job while also avoiding infection?

      F. Were the Covid rates in the area high enough that, in retrospect, it’s likely that there were other people with silent infections on site, and the shutdown and cleaning, even if done for the wrong reasons, still likely cut transmission chains and saved lives?

  57. Some internet rando*

    I am impressed that you changed your mind and your advice Alison!!

    Frankly most people double down on their original stance because they don’t want to admit they could be wrong. It takes a fair amount of maturity and open mindedness to change your stance. This is why I love this advice column.

  58. WellRed*

    Sigh. Typical of this gvt in particular. Now employees can be reported for Covid fraud? But employers can do all the bad things we read about almost daily with regard to Covid. Yep, go after the grunts.

  59. Cheluzal*

    Ugh, disgusting political opinions that are always skewed in one direction are making this site less and less bearable.

    1. Lantern*

      So you’d agree that this administration is handling COVID well? Let me tell you about this bridge I’m selling…

    2. blackcat*

      This is Alison’s website. She sets the rules and dictates what is and isn’t allowed. If you don’t like it, you’re free to take your traffic elsewhere.

      While politics aren’t explicitly allowed, Alison has always taken certain stances that folks consider “political,” like encouraging workers to unionize. Where the law intersects with workplaces, things do get “political” by definition.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ve never made any secret of my beliefs here in 13 years of writing this site. In fact, I believe there’s a moral imperative to use the platform one has to promote change in the world. If that’s not for you, by all means find another site, because this one isn’t changing.

      1. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

        …which is precisely why I am here…

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I have no idea where you’re seeing that on this post; I’ve written nothing of the sort here.

        That said, I certainly do support some forms of law breaking, such as civil disobedience — but that’s not been discussed here.

      2. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        What? Did I miss something? What in the world are you talking about? Exactly WHERE did Alison advocate breaking the law? Please show me because I’m not seeing it.

  60. JustKnope*

    I’m so appreciative that you changed your mind on this one, Alison. The question is whether the employee received consequences for their actions, and they did. They were fired. You can’t recoup the time or panic or worry for these kiddos and their families, and all your organization can do moving forward is try to take precautions and have very clear protocols in place.

  61. Antisocialite*

    Oh no. This post is now making me question if I followed the right process for my own Covid-related sick time or if my crappy employer gave me bad information.

    The very short version is that I was pursuing a diagnosis due to an ongoing respiratory infection that did not respond to treatment. I went back to work when my regular sick time and “points” were almost up. Then it got worse, and my doctor suggested I could use the new paid sick time law because I was pursuing a Covid diagnosis.

    So, I let my employer know I was getting tested (didn’t say I had it, just that I was pursuing a diagnosis), and awaiting the result. It took almost 2 weeks total. One week for the follow-up doctor appointment, referral to another doctor who could test, and the testing. And the second week for the results to come back. It was negative, and I was still sick, but went back to work (remotely) with a few days of the 2 weeks still left. I had told my employer “I’m returning on X”, nothing more.

    I asked if there was any paperwork or anything else required, and they said all they needed was the name of my doctor.

    My workplace is incredibly toxic and mismanaged so maybe that is fueling my anxiety over this.

  62. OP of "my employee lied about testing positive for COVID-19"*

    I don’t think you should worry. If your doctor advised you to be off due to COVID-19 related concerns you very well should be fine so sleep well!!

    1. Antisocialite*

      Thanks for the input. It’s weird they declined any info other than my doctor’s name. And I’m still trying to wrap my brain around why your employee lied, so bizarre.

  63. justabot*

    Just some thoughts here – I would never actually do this, but there have been several times in the past month where I have seriously wanted to tell my employer that I had Covid-19 symptoms in order to not come into work. And NOT to collect ANY money because of it. But because I am petrified for my health and safety. I am in a deep south state, recently voted the #1 most irresponsible state, where NO ONE at work seems to care about this pandemic. Everything is open, we are back at work, at least nine employees have tested positive for Covid-19, and we don’t even shut down anymore. They just don’t come in for ten days. No negative test required to return. There is zero contact tracing. Even if you have been exposed to someone who has tested positive, you are expected to be at work unless you have symptoms. Employees’ spouses have tested positive, yet they are still coming into work. And… no one else seems the slightest bit bothered by this. “Deep cleaning” is a joke, management openly thinks that the governors in other states who have responsibly shut down businesses similar to ours are horrible.

    Meanwhile we are in a total hot spot state, rising cases every single day, a positivity test rate over 20%, and yet it’s still business as usual. 300 people plus vendors coming in for weddings. Which is all perfectly permissible in some states. So have I thought about having “symptoms” so that I can stay home and protect my health and lungs for life? Yes. Have I tried to sit in a car line in 100 degrees for 6+ hours to get a test? Yes. Did they run out of tests before I got one? Yes. Did I go back for another test? No.

    I don’t agree with what the employee in the letter did, particularly if it was for money. But believe me, it has crossed my mind to find a reason to not go in without “quitting” and making myself ineligible for unemployment when I was offered my job back. It feels really unfair that I have to be exposed to a serious virus every day, the public who wears masks around their chin, and staff members required to come in even if they have spouses at home with covid-19. I read these posts here and want to cry because everyone takes it so seriously and you are all so lucky. Let’s just say in some places in the south and in the hospitality industry, it’s like living in an alternate universe. And yes, it has crossed my mind to say I’m “quarantining.” However I would never lie about a positive test or ever try to collect any money on a falsehood. I just want my lungs safe. And this is not just my company or industry – it seems to be the norm all around me. Easy to say quit, but the marketing and events job market is not exactly booming right now.

  64. wastelanderone*

    I was 19 and a little dumb when swine flu was going around. I got the flu. Did I tell my employer it was swine flu? Yes. Was it swine flu? Probably just good old fashioned regular flu. If I hadn’t told my employer it was swine flu, they would not have allowed me the unpaid time off to recover. Was it stupid and did I get lucky that they didn’t require a positive test on my return? Yes. Did I deserve to be reported to the authorities for my lie? No.

    It’s amazing that OPs company took it seriously and sad that has taken a hit due to it. The employee is no better off for the lie and has received consequences (being fired). Calling the authorities is overly punitive and serves only as revenge.

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