open thread – July 10-11, 2020

by Alison Green on July 10, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. halfwolf*

    Curious to get other peoples’ perspective on a job listing. A recruiter that I was introduced to (but don’t know very well) sent me a temp to perm position at an organization in the sector I’ve been trying to move into. Salary and benefits upon permanent placement are good, and even if it’s not the right long-term fit, a lot of positions in this industry want to see prior industry experience, so it would strengthen my resume. However, I’m not totally sold on the organization itself, and a couple of lines in the job description gave me pause. The very first line is “Looking for someone with thick skin who can handle constructive criticism.” Later on in the qualifications section, it says “Must be able to take and implement feedback,” which … I mean, that’s true of all jobs. It feels weird that both of these things were called out in this way, and combined with my reservations about the organization itself, I think I’m going to pass. If this ever comes up again, what do other people think? Huge red flag, or more just an indication to go in with eyes wide open? I’m very recently unemployed, but in a financial situation where I can afford to be jobless for at least the rest of the year.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      “Looking for someone with thick skin who can handle constructive criticism.”

      This seems like a major red flag.

      “Must be able to take and implement feedback,”

      This is weird but less of a red flag.

      1. DarthVelma*

        Yup, “looking for someone with thick skin” means you boss and possibly your co-workers will all be assholes.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Yeah, that’s the most likely scenario, IMO. Stretching my imagination I can aaalllllmost see it as, “The person who used to have this job cried several times a week, and giving her even the gentlest feedback meant a sobbing breakdown and could mean she had to leave early. We need to make sure we get someone who can freaking handle correction.”

          2. charo*

            It could be worth interviewing and asking if this description is a reaction to past employee finding it too blunt, or if it’s management that’s blunt. Try to clarify that.

      2. ampersand*

        Yes. It sounds like they’re referring to someone who has the potential to make the job miserable, and (I’ll be nice and call it) that person’s lack of professionalism hasn’t been dealt with properly, so everyone else is required to suck it up and take it.

        The taking and implementing feedback part–eh, some people aren’t great at that, or haven’t learned how to do it yet, and it’s overall not a problem to spell it out if that’s a requirement of the job. In combination with asking for someone with thick skin, though? That would concern me.

        To me this reads like: “We made a past employee cry and they didn’t even implement our suggestions!”

      3. Amethystmoon*

        Yes, I agree as someone who used to temp, those are definitely red flags. I once worked at a company (left after the first month) where the CEO routinely made people cry. He did not make me cry but I left before that happened. It was a small company and the 1 HR person kissed his rear. I hope this isn’t that company.

    2. Slinky*

      The “thick skin” comment is a huge red flag. If you’re telling people before they’ve even applied that they’ll need to have a thick skin, this is concerning. The part about “must be able to take and implement feedback,” on its own, I’d worry less about. Lots of people aren’t great at writing postings and may just get a little over specific. Taken together, however, I agree that not applying is a good call.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Agree, the hugest red flag. Obviously a prerequisite for any job is to be able to take direction and improve.

        The fact they’ve gone out of there way to prioritize this on their job posting means someone in that company is thinking “the last 4 people in this role couldn’t take my direction and quit – there must be something wrong with them!” when, I bet if you asked those last 4 people, they’d say “I lived in fear of the vitriol spewed from Delores’ mouth every time I did anything, no matter how hard I tried to get it right.”

      2. Mama Bear*

        Expecting someone to be able to take average feedback should be a given. The thick skin reference to me says, “You should have no expectation of professionalism when it comes to conflict.” Hard pass.

    3. Lynn*

      I think it’s a yellow-flag; I would be willing to apply and interview to see where it goes but would be a little wary and if interviewed, might ask them to further explain some of the elements of the job req, including that one.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Agreed. It’s not the greatest sign, but especially if you are a person with thick skin, it might be worth at least getting a little farther into the process and seeing if anything else crops up.

        1. dorothyparker*

          If I really needed it, I would interview and just ask them to explain what constructive criticism means. Make them answer it and that could tell you what explain constructive criticism is in their minds. And how far out of reality it is.

          1. charo*

            I’D ask what they mean by “thick skin.” Give me an example. That’s a term that is a def. red flag, it’s a little crude.

            On the other hand, though, job descriptions can be a reaction to problems w/the last person, who may have been overly sensitive. Just like job-seekers can react to a bad job by looking at a different type of atmosphere, so can job creators.

      2. Chai town*

        Yellow to orange flag. I once had a public facing position in a service field that was slightly politicised in that most people felt that the service should be free, or done their way, or have no restrictions, etc. 90% of the customers were very pleasant and rarely called or came in. The other 10% though… so angry! It wore me down to be facing so much negativity all the time. I didn’t have thick enough skin, but my three coworkers could easily forget the interactions and move on.

      3. Biscuit*

        It can’t hurt to interview and ask why that was called out…if that is the only red flag.

    4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’ll join the chorus; they’re looking for someone tolerant of verbal abuse.

      “Must be able to take and implement feedback” makes me think they want someone who does what they’ve told unconditionally and won’t make waves by thinking for themselves.

    6. Txag18*

      Seems like a red flag to me. Taking criticism is a part of all jobs. At best, this company has had a bad experience with a prior employee not taking feedback and wants to avoid that in the future. My inkling is that this person is abrasive or gives harsh (and not very constructive) “feedback” and doesn’t see that they’re the problem. In my own experience, people who say you need a “thick skin” say as much because they are rude and abrasive.

    7. Another name*

      Orange flag. There’s a small chance the ad is an overreaction to the previous person who held the job being overly reactive to feedback. But more likely it is a bee hive. If you interview, ask questions to try to find out what happened with the previous person in the position and why they left. But I wouldn’t feel bad about skipping this one if the job doesn’t seem worth the effort of finding out.

      2. TooTiredToThink*

        I agree with this too. I’ve known people to use “thick skin” language and they were not verbal abusers at all – and I’ve known people who did and were.

      3. Teapot Librarian*

        This was my first thought, too, except for the part about “thick skin.” There’s a difference between “the person who was in this position before was way too thin-skinned, and we need someone who can take feedback,” and “we need someone thick-skinned.” I’m with you on orange flag.

    8. Gwen Soul*

      I would ask about it but it doesn’t seem that odd to me. We have it in our descriptions because we get crapped on a lot and have to work through it. (this is a function of the job and not an organization thing, we have to give a lot of bad news and assign work without any real authority)

      1. Trixie*

        This doesn’t to me either other than being listed first.

        Depending on the job, a big part is taking feedback/direction and not taking it personally. In previous roles, my predecessor would tear up when the talking to the Boss about various situations. Feedback is helpful and an opportunity to be on the same page moving forward. Also, feedback is also crucial for those stuck in the past or prior routines, and do not understand that change is underway. Feedback may be to clarify this is the new path moving forward. Of course, feedback is only helpful when it’s consistent versus varying from week to week.

    9. Amtelope*

      I agree that it can be a red flag, but I don’t think it necessarily indicates that your coworkers will be terrible (although it might). We’ve said similar things in job ads when what we mean is “our clients are sometimes terrible, and will give feedback ranging from blunt to aggressively rude.”

      In one case, we were hiring for a role where the last three people had quit because the client was terrible. Our team was not empowered to fire the client. We needed to hire someone who could tolerate “This is terrible work, do you even know what you’re doing?” feedback from this client without bursting into tears or quitting. We weren’t going to take the comments as an indication that the new hire was doing bad work — we had heard several years of these complaints regardless of what we did — but we also couldn’t make it stop. So we were trying to be as honest as possible about the challenges of the role.

      1. Katrinka*

        But there are better ways to word that. I’ve seen ads that mention working with difficult clients, which I would definitely take as clients that either yell a lot or need a lot of hand-holding. Needing a thick skin, to me, would be an indication of an internal culture.

        1. Do As I Say, Not As I Do*

          Except you can’t run a job ad naming your organization if you also say you work with “difficult clients”. Clients that see that would be very upset.

    10. lemon*

      Agree with others that the “thick skin” line is a yellow flag. I can think of a few examples where this wouldn’t necessarily be indicative of a toxic environment (e.g. customer service, where you can have the nicest coworkers and bosses but you’ll still deal with abuse from customers, or any other heavily client-facing role). I’d say it’s an indication to go into the interview with eyes open to any potential signs of a toxic workplace, asking questions about the environment, culture, and who you’d be working with.

      “Must be able to take and implement feedback” is a little weird, but on it’s own, wouldn’t be a red/yellow flag. I read this more of an instance of “the last person who had this job was bad at taking feedback, so now we’re hyperfocused on screening that out with new candidates.”

    11. halfwolf*

      thank you for all of the replies! i asked the recruiter for some clarification on this point, and it was not exactly illuminating; the response was that the executives’ personalities are “very direct” (this is an EA role). i think this combined with my other reservations about a part of the work done by the org means that i’m going to pass. i’m grateful to hear other peoples’ takes on this, because it’s really hard for me to break out of the mindset of “YOU HAVE TO GET A JOB ANY JOB RIGHT NOW AS SOON AS SOMEONE DEIGNS TO OFFER YOU ONE” when that really isn’t true for my situation.

      1. Amtelope*

        Yeah, I think that’s the right call — that sounds like “you’re going to get yelled at a lot by your direct boss,” which sounds like no fun whatsoever.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        Yeah, “very direct” could be anything from someone who is bluntly honest but means well to outright verbal abuse. I interviewed for an EA role where it turned out the guy I’d support was a yeller and the EA who was interviewing me (and that I’d replace) basically told me to run.

        No one needs to be yelled at on a daily basis because their boss couldn’t find the report you put on his desk because it was 2 inches to the left of where you usually put it.

      3. Katrinka*

        As an EA, I agree. This wording means the execs are assholes and the ocmpany lets them get away with it because they think they are brilliant/bring in the clients/ own the company. I worked for an attorney that was horrid – he didn’t like to share me with any other attorneys, but he didn’t generate enough work to justify having me dedicated solely to him (very common in law firms for one secretary to work for two attorneys). His work was ALWAYS done on time (or ahead of time), but he just hated the idea of sharing. I would often cry on the drive home with my then-fiance. I finally decided I had to leave when I heard him yelling in his office about how someone was an asshole and m-fer and on and on for over an hour. And realized that he was talking to his mother,about his father. Because his father forgot to make sure his mother took all of her meds when they left for their vacation home.

      4. JJ Bittenbinder*

        I would have passed as well. If they’re saying things like that at this stage, when usually they’re trying to woo candidates and sell them on how great the role is, it’s likely several degrees worse than they’re letting on.

        I don’t see an issue with saying that candidates should have a thick skin, per se, but I do think it’s odd to have it as the very first line. That’s where it tipped into red flag territory for me.

        I once got through the initial stages of applying to a role and was in the ‘interview with your prospective coworkers’ round. I was already a little wary of the woman who would be my boss because she seemed very brusque, but the very first question I was asked by a member of the team was “How do you deal with a difficult boss?” That was the only other sign I needed to withdraw my candidacy.

      5. Can't Sit Still*

        Requiring a thick skin in admin or EA role means that the executives are verbally, and possibly physically and/or sexually abusive and the company allows it because it’s cheaper to replace admins than other their other direct reports.

        Temp to perm in this case may actually mean that their in house recruiters are refusing to attempt to fill the role any longer. Of course, I worked for a company that got blackballed in 2008 by temporary agencies for being too abusive, so that can go either way.

        1. Mama Bear*

          Or it could mean that their execs are prone to getting rid of new EAs quickly and it’s easier to let go a temp employee. I worked for an office where certain people were contractors and I think it was partially because they would be easier to get rid of.

      6. Shakti*

        As someone who used to temp in EA roles do not take that job!! I took jobs like that and they were toxic and dysfunctional and I left with some very memorable stories (the CFO would practice golf at me and my desk and I got to handle a surprise uranium delivery), but I was also never sure what anyone’s mood would be and they were often “direct” aka very needlessly mean and it has nothing to do with job feedback or another job they’d feel good about direct feedback like don’t get pregnant, why did you have a doctor appointment, we don’t hire people who are old or have kids. Be very careful with temp jobs if they say that

    12. HR Exec Popping In*

      These a very big signals about their culture. For some this would be a red flag, for others it would not be. I’m guessing that this is a highly direct organization that provides blunt feedback regularly and expects immediate action on feedback. Some would call this a high performance organization which typically means aggressive personality-wise with very high performance standards. For some this is fine. For most it is not.

    13. Fabulous*

      Yellow flag for me. Yes, it could mean a toxic culture, but I’ve also seen things like this where the prior person in the role just wasn’t suited for it and they felt they needed to specify things in the posting to counteract having the same type of person apply.

      The example I’m thinking of is for a contracts position at a former company. I applied internally so I learned a bit more about the prior person than I probably would have otherwise. The legal team basically said they needed someone who had thick skin and enjoyed boring work because the last person got upset at the drop of a hat whenever feedback was given, then quit at the drop of a hat because they got too bored only reading contracts all the time.

    14. StormyWeather*

      I agree with several other commenters. This is a red flag. It sounds to me like this is a manager who expects to be able to abuse their staff. I guess they don’t understand constructive feedback at all.

    15. Jasmine*

      Having worked for and hired for a company where the boss’ behaviour required everyone to “have a thick skin”, I’d say run. Don’t look back. Save yourself!

    16. Kathenus*

      Just to offer a positive spin on it – good on the recruiter or organization for including it in the description. Better to get someone who knows what they’re getting into and has a personality/work style that can still thrive in that atmosphere than for someone to walk in blind.

    17. emmelemm*

      Yeah, they’re basically telling you in advance that you’re going to be miserable.

    18. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      Devil’s advocate: my predecessors was incredibly critical of my team and a similar line about taking feedback was in their job descriptions. I’ve been at my role for seven months and just this week was asked to review and update the JDs. I took that line out. It’s possible there is a legacy reason why the JD reads that way. If you’re otherwise interested, interview and see how they seem.

    19. Duvie*

      I would read this as “boss’s constant criticism and abrasive style drove the last person screaming into the night.” Hard pass, unless the wolf is at the door, and even then, I’d keep my resume spiffed up and ready to go.

  2. Fone Bone*

    How do you explain in a phone interview why you’re leaving a position of five + years at a smaller company for a one year (arguably with less responsibility and that you’re overqualified for) position at a larger company? I’m at a breaking point with my boss and need to get away. The new spot pays more but is temporary and I’m finding “looking for a new challenge” to not be quite right because it’s a lot of what I do anyway. Any ideas?

    1. Lygeia*

      You could say that you want some larger company experience. That’s valid. Large companies work differently and have different challenges than small ones, so it makes sense that you may be looking to diversify your background!

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        I agree with this. Larger companies have entirely different ‘feel’ and benefits. Its perfectly acceptable to want that cultural experience – although it would sound more convincing if you could talk to specific aspects (robust training process, cross-functional exposure, etc) that appeal to you.

        Also little-company years mean less than big-company years, IME, since so much of a big company is just learning how to navigate their systems. So don’t panic about the experience difference.

        1. Fone Bone*

          That’s a good point. Also making this tricky is it’s a remote job with only one month being in person.

          1. Katrinka*

            I think it’s perfectly OK to say that there is enough difference in the role to make it worth exploring their way of doing business (large company, more remote work). And with COVID right now, exploring more remote work makes a lot of sense.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Is there anything that might help you in your career, working at a larger company, even if it’s for only a year? What are the other things that appeal to you about the one-year position?

    3. Yada Yada*

      Maybe go with the “limited advancement potential” statement, followed by “after 5 years, I am looking for fresh challenges, and even tho I would be starting in a lower position here, I am keen on this company and would love to talk more about advancement opportunities here ….”

      Hope that helps.

      1. Amy Sly*

        I used that one myself. “Limited advancement potential” is a big problem in small companies.

        2. Nesprin*

          Yep- After 5yrs, there is limited advancement potential at my current job and I’m looking to grow

        3. WantonSeedStitch*

          That’s the chief reason I used when I was looking to escape an admin role at a small, toxic company with a very toxic boss early in my career. It was also true: I didn’t want to be in an admin role forever, but the only other kinds of roles in this company were sales or tech, and neither of those appealed to me, really. I was fine going into an admin role elsewhere, but I wanted one where I could learn about other parts of a larger and more complex organization and find a career path that appealed to me.

      2. SomebodyElse*

        Just a warning.. I can’t put my finger on it, but the script has some alarm bells. It’s ok to site a bigger company with more opportunity for future advancement, but make sure you really stress the ‘future’ part. If I’m hiring for a position now and am not going to be thrilled at hiring someone only interested in finding a new job, be it in my company or another one.

        To be clear, I’m ok hiring someone who wants to eventually grow and advance (I love hiring people like this), and wouldn’t bat an eye at someone citing wanting the structure of a larger company, but I’m not ok with someone using my open position as a place holder until something else comes along.

        1. SomebodyElse*

          Crud… reading fail. I missed or didn’t register this was a temporary position. If that’s the case then my comment doesn’t make sense in that context.

          1. Venus*

            But OP also said “that you’re overqualified for” so in this case it would probably be best to acknowledge that they are fully committed to the year-long contract although will be interested in what else is available with the company later. Maybe line it up with the “What do you look for in someone who is going to excel in this role?” and add a “because I want to impress you in that year, so that you will want to keep me, ideally moving me to an even better job”, said more modestly of course.

    4. Myrin*

      You want to become acquainted with the going-ons at a larger company? (Maybe adding that this opportunity seemed perfect to you to find out whether small or large companies suit you better?)

    5. Just J.*

      “I find at my current job, I wear too many hats and am spread too thin. I think working at your company, with a more focussed set of responsibilities would be good for for my career even though the position is temporary.”

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          It walks a fine line. If I were going to use that, I’d be careful not to say anything else that might signal I’m reluctant to take on additional responsibilities or opportunities outside of my formal job description.

          1. Fone Bone*

            Thankfully it’s commonly understood in my industry that smaller companies require their folk to wear too many hats. And I think they’ll understand that COVID is going to have additional funding impacts on current job that will make the future more..uh..hat filled. The new place has as many people in one department as my entire company!

      2. Not A Manager*

        Is it possible to phrase this in the positive, instead of the negative? “My current job has afforded me the opportunity to perform many roles and learn valuable processes. I look forward to the opportunity to narrow my focus and hone several of these skills in more depth.”

        I guess you don’t really hone in depth, but you get the idea.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yes, I like this more positive positioning. The other version sounds like complaining.

    6. Lynn*

      I think you can contextualize it as a small vs large company thing; a large company typically has more options for growth, maybe they are a leader in your field, etc.

    7. Venus*

      “I am interested in your position as you are a larger company with more stability.”
      I might not be finding the right words with this, but I would suggest a way to highlight that larger companies have more resources, so they support you in focusing on your job, whereas smaller companies often need people to take on different roles.

    8. Kimmybear*

      I was in a similar boat and the answer was a more tactful “A temporary position allows me to run out my non-compete.” Small companies and big companies have different cultures, benefits and levels of stability. Right now, no one will question wanting a job with more stability even if that’s not guaranteed anywhere.

      1. Fone Bone*

        Is it stable if it’s only for a year though? I think your suggestion is a good one but I am admittedly nervous about taking a temp job and then being jobless at the end.

        1. Kimmybear*

          Stable for a year is more than most people feel they have right now. The world may look very different a year from now.

    9. PR Girl*

      One thought is to blame this on the pandemic. If the year is only a position, you can say that the last couple of months have allowed you to take a step back and evaluate your priorities and this is a better fit for your situation right now. You can say that there’s too much changing right now to consider a longer-term move, but that a temporary position works perfectly.

      Everyone’s circumstances are evolving and people are reconsidering what’s important to them at work. This allows you to contribute and be fulfilled while you think about what’s next for you.

    10. Hillary*

      After five years, you can just say you’re looking for new challenges. Focus on the benefits of a bigger company (for me it was more resources, more opportunities for large-scale projects). The other way works too, for a small company I’d say the opportunity to really make an impact and control my destiny.

      Focus on what you want from the new place and leave out the old place entirely.

    11. Reformed TV Girl*

      I have found that something along the lines of “You know, because of the size of [employer] and the limited opportunities for growth, I feel as if I’ve hit my ceiling here and I’m really looking to take the next step” has served me quite well when the truth is more along the lines of “I NEED OUT!”

    12. Tex*

      Some reasons could be … new clients (previous job could get repetitive), different approach of the company to the same challenges, temp job lets me add tools/gain more perspective as I solidify skills to become a niche expert.

      I once had a talk with a (very trusted) boss and asked him if my previous experience (2-3 years at 5 places) made him pause when he first hired me. In other interviews, I had been looked down as a job-hopper despite my position being eliminated only during industry-wide downturns. He said it was a positive because I had so much exposure into how a number of companies worked in the same niche field, like a consultant, that I could benchmark what his department was doing against others and bring in a range of solutions to the same problems.

    13. HR Exec Popping In*

      Most hiring managers at big companies would not find this unusual. A Director level job at a small firm is not the same as a Director level job at a large firm. The scope of responsibility and depth is going to be different. Just tell them that you are looking to take on the challenge of working for a larger organization where you will have to ability to learn and grow professionally.

    14. Katrinka*

      I just had an interview this morning and why I left my previous job never came up (I was fired). I think Alison has said in the past that she didn’t think was going to be as much of an issue for the next while, because so many people have lost their jobs.

    15. MissDisplaced*

      This is pretty easy actually!
      Moving to a larger company often offers:
      >wider cross-functional team experience
      >global experience
      >stability / benefits / processes
      >better training and support functions
      >advancement opportunities
      >larger projects / bigger budgets
      >better technology access
      >more public exposure or enterprise level clients

      I’m sure you can think of one or two examples that relate to your line of work. Granted, there are also downsides to big companies too, but career-wise it’s good to have worked for one at least once in your career.

    16. SummerBee*

      I’ve had a great deal of success with “There have been some changes in the organization and my current role is no longer a good fit.” In my experience, once I use the magic “fit” word, interviewers will nod and ask no follow up questions about it.

    17. allathian*

      I’d go with that you want larger company experience. Hiring a temp is less risky than hiring someone permanently, although less so in the US when you can basically be fired for pretty much any reason at any time.
      If they’re open to hiring an overqualified person for a temp position, it’s entirely possible that in a larger company, there could be other opportunities later, if you’re a match. That’s not something you can take for granted, obviously, but mentioning that in the interview could show that you’re interested in the company in the longer term and see the temp position as a way to get your foot in the door.

    18. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Is the temp position tied to a specific project or goal? My husband has switched jobs a couple of times where he was offered a short contact to work on a particular company project. Although he ended up working at each place for a few years rather than the original planned fixed term contract, he was able to say that he was interested in the project or had a relevant skill that would help with it. Maybe you could use a similar angle.

  3. Postdoc*

    Question for those in academia: I’m currently a third year postdoc (biomedical). I was planning to start looking for a faculty position next year but the job market looks terrible. Would it be better to wait? Would taking a research associate position in a lab kill my prospects of eventually getting a faculty position? My institution has a strict five year limit for postdoc positions.

    1. BRR*

      Do you have to give notice for the postdoc? I’m not sure why you can’t start looking this year.

      1. Yorick*

        Academic positions hire in the fall for the following fall, so Postdoc might mean they were planning on looking for jobs now that would start next year.

        @Postdoc: I would go on the market now, and you can (probably) stay in your postdoc one more year if you don’t get a job this year.

        1. BRR*

          I know academic jobs hire far out. I’m just not sure why they would wait. What harm is there in looking this year?

          1. ducklet*

            for some added context, the faculty job search itself can be like a full time job on its own. I know several junior faculty and postdocs who say they’ve basically put their normal jobs on hold while they apply because it takes so much time to craft documents and prepare for the faculty job interview. So there’s a definite question of whether the investment is worthwhile given the current opportunities.

            1. Postdoc*

              That’s exactly the problem. If I start a faculty search it will take up a lot of my time that I could otherwise used to write grants or do more experiments to make me e a better candidate the following year.

            2. Oldbiddy*

              this. it’s a lot of work to apply and interview, so if you think you don’t have much of a chance it’s better to really maximize your productivity in the coming year, especially since COVID-year is shaping up to be a shitty one in terms of hiring. If you think you have a good chance, then it’s a harder call and will depend on the norms in your field. I interviewed very early in my postdoc (this was in the 90’s) and got some interviews and one offer. I had followed the usual advice of only applying to places where you’d take a job (location/reputation), but sometimes you don’t know the real atmosphere until you interview. Unfortunately, the morale in that department was horrible and it was full of dinosaurs who really let their sexism flag fly, even by 90’s standards. I turned it down and interviewed the next year. I have no way of knowing for sure, but people talk and I got the impression that this hurt me the following year, both my having a reputation as someone who turned down a job and someone who didn’t interview well.

    2. Casey*

      After some deliberation (and approximately 20 co-op applications that have gone unanswered…. not great for the self-esteem!) I’ve decided to finish my undergrad degree this upcoming academic year instead of taking a gap year to work. I was thinking of taking off because I’ve HATED doing online classes for personal reasons, and I don’t have much faith that the next year will be better. But it’s looking like the best option, so let me ask: how can I kick *ss at this? I need to bring up my GPA to get a significant raise at work after I graduate, and/or get better opportunities, so I need to do well but I also need to stay sane. I’d love to hear about your home office/study setup, strategies for making it through when your professors aren’t exactly at the forefront of digital pedagogy, how to stay on top of assignments when you don’t have physical classes to go to. Anything and everything would be helpful!

      1. schnauzerfan*

        The advice I give to our students is to treat school like a full time job. Give it an honest 40 hours. By “honest” I mean if you’re searching for information on your topic and fall down a reddit rabbit hole, deduct the 2.5 hours you spent mucking around from your 8 hour day. Meet up with your study group? Great. But assess how much study and how much social actually happened. 30 minutes work and 45 minutes bs? Fine. Give yourself credit for the 30 minutes. Nothing pressing to do? Check the syllabus and read/work ahead. Meet your profs/TAs and talk about the assignment. Submit drafts and incorporate the critiques in the final project. Make a Master Syllabus with all the things you need to do and keep track of your progress towards each goal.

        Then when you’ve done your honest 40 hours give yourself a break. Ride your bike, play Animal Crossing, meet up with friends (online or in person Covid willing)

      2. Math grad*

        One of the best things I did to help with studying was switch to PDFs of all of my textbooks on an iPad. Selling my paper books more or less paid for the iPad. I am much more likely to engage with the material when I can take notes or work through equations right on the same page as the text (you can fit a lot in the margins when zoomed all the way in).

        I also found it helpful to have designated uses for my electronics. My phone was for wasting time online. My iPad was strictly for taking notes and looking up school related materials online. My laptop was strictly for typing up papers.

        The tomato timer method seems to be a popular time management strategy. You sit down to work and set a 50 minute timer. When it goes off, you take a 10 minute break. Then you can either go back to the same task for another hour or switch to a new task. I couldn’t make it work, but a lot of people with time management issues swear by it.

        It’s probably not as much of an option given the current situation, but leaving my house to go study at the same time everyday really helped me. If you have the space, designating one area as your work area and only using it for work might help. It wouldn’t give you as much distance from the distractions of home as leaving the house, but it might be better than nothing.

        As far as dealing with professors who aren’t great at online teaching, you have a few options. My first recommendation would be to try attending whatever form of office hours they’re holding. That gives you a chance to get some one-on-one help with specific topics you’re struggling with. Teaching online makes it hard to know when a lecture isn’t making sense (it might be pre-recorded, you can’t see body language or facial expressions, etc.), so a professor who would have offered an alternate explanation in class won’t know it was needed. Office hours give you a chance to get that other explanation. It also gives you a chance to discuss things you wish they were doing differently. Most professors do care about their students; they just need some help learning how to help students learn online. Next year is likely to be a bit better than last year because they will have had time to prepare for an online course. Universities basically threw their faculties under the bus last semester; they were given a week’s notice and no guidance.

        The other thing you’ll need to do is start looking for multiple textbooks for courses where that’s a possibility. Sites like stack exchange are usually good for suggestions. You don’t have to (and shouldn’t) read all of them, but having access to multiple explanations of a topic is usually helpful. For textbooks with exercises (math, physics, etc.), do a lot of extra exercises. It’s easy to watch a video or read a worked example and feel like you know what you’re doing. The only way to know for sure what you don’t know is to do lots of exercises.

        In the event that things feel like they’re spiraling out of control, you’re going to need to triage things. If you need your GPA to go up, you’ll want to use a GPA calculator to see how much it’s possible to raise it and how much each class will effect it. If there’s a class that’s eating up a lot of your time, you might be better off accepting a lower grade in order to free up time to focus on your other classes. It’s easy to focus so much on not tanking one class that you lose sight of how much it actually matters. The same goes for individual assignments. Some assignments take a ton of time for relatively few points. It doesn’t feel good, but sometimes it’s worth phoning it in on low value assignments. It even goes for exams. It doesn’t matter if a problem is worth 20% of your exam score; if you don’t know how to do it, you need to skip it and focus on the problems you do know how to do. I’ve seen a lot of students let tunnel vision hurt their GPAs.

        Hopefully some of that wall of text is useful for you. Most of my experience is with taking and teaching math courses, but some of it should still be applicable to other departments.

        1. Wheezy Weasel*

          I’ll second the recommendation for the triage method, especially as you mention that the faculty are not on the cutting edge of digital pedagogy. There is a lot of reading, exercises, videos and overall ‘fluff’ jammed into an online course when it hasn’t been carefully designed and curated. I supported an online learning management system for 3 years and worked alongside instructional designers so I’ve seen this from both sides of the house, so to speak. It sounds ruthless, but you have to eliminate time wasting activities that the instructor thinks are worthwhile that don’t drastically affect your deliverables (papers, tests, discussions, presentations) and your grade. If you have spare time after completing these tasks, you can dive into the other work. A good learning management system has a ‘calculate my grade’ function where you can enter your expected scores into the gradebook to estimate how your overall course grade would suffer if you slacked on some assignments. I would recalculate weekly to see if I could drop time consuming work that was assigned low point values or rapid deadlines, then go back and complete it if I was finished with the more valuable work.

          Also, make sure to give yourself enough runway to have a few days in the quarter/semester where you do zero work….either you’ll be sick or mentally exhausted, have internet outage or another unexpected bump in the road. For my Sunday due dates, I’d try to complete 90% of the work on Saturday and just give the final result a polish rather than waiting until 12 hours before the deadline to start work that I know would take 2-3 hours.

          1. BethDH*

            Also, look at what projects/tasks are worth the most and put those on your calendar to work on earlier. This is obvious when it’s the final project, but when there are medium size assignments you can end up in trouble if you only start them as early as things like reading responses or discussion posts.

        2. Amethystmoon*

          When I was getting my masters, I got most books in electronic. A couple of times I will say though that whatever was on Amazon, it was literally missing pages. I had to ask a classmate to send me a screen shot of what the assignment was. It was embarrassing.

      3. Mid*

        My planner was my lifeboat basically. I wrote down everything. Before the term started, I wrote down all the dates in the syllabus. I wrote down the reading schedule. As soon as a professor told us a deadline, I wrote it down in my planner. Then, for big projects, I added smaller deadline within it so I would have to keep working on it before it was due.

        Also try to keep yourself on a schedule. If the classes are pre-recorded and watch whenever you want, try to make your own class time where you watch the lectures on a regular basis. Create structure for yourself.

      4. Tessera Member 042*

        As an online college instructor, here’s a few tips:
        -At the beginning of the semester, take the syllabus and put the due dates for each assignment into your planner/digital calendar. Not all course management systems give reminders, and not everything you have to complete for class will get a reminder.
        -Beware of the screen medium triggering your brain into “skim” mode when you need to read thoroughly! Take breaks and refocus as needed for longer readings.
        -For time management, literally schedule your day as if you were doing classes in person. Have dedicated times to work on things for each class. If you know you concentrate best in the morning, put your most-intensive work then (writing essays, doing projects, etc.) and save the reading/discussions for another time.
        -Please ask questions early and often! Also, know when a question can be solved by a quick email and when you might need a phone call/video chat to really understand what an assignment is asking, why you got the grade you did, etc.
        -Locate other resources for times your professor isn’t super helpful – Writing Center, tutoring, librarian for research questions, classmates for study groups.
        -If you’re a social person, you might want to set up “virtual work dates” with people (college friends, classmates) where you all get on a video chat, set your goals for the work session, and work with the video in the background, with brief progress checkins. I found this really helpful for finishing my dissertation remotely this spring.
        Good luck!

      5. Thankful for AAM*

        This is not quite what you asked but my spouse is faculty – we see over and over that students who do well, attend office hours, students who do poorly, never ask for help.
        I am not saying go to office hours just to go, but if you have any questions, see your focus dropping, anything, talk to the prof! Mine is finding that more students are coming to virtual office hours than came to in person hours. It is working really well.

        I loved my virtual grad school experience (finished last year) better than my first in-person masters. The things I loved compared to the in-person were:
        -the social/chat side of things. My classes created FB and other social media groups for the class – we would often be using it during the class. It made it much more engaging for me (and I’m a boomer, not a native computer user).
        -that if the prof was incredibly boring (you cannot just lecture online like it is the classroom!) I could do other things for the class during the class.
        -that I did not have to park, ever!
        -that I could move during class without disturbing anyone – I could stretch out, walk, whatever
        -that I could stay in my house, in my room with my desk, my supplies, my computer – and did not have to haul any of it.

        Not sure if any of that helps but I focused on all the things I like.

    3. Rainy*

      Typically if you can keep publishing in the associate role, you can keep a foot in the door. If it’s a prestigious lab or doing exciting or very timely work, you can spin the experience as making you more valuable as faculty due to connections, a better grasp on obtaining funding, that sort of thing.

      I’m going to say that the job market in academia is going to look tough for a few years at the very least–universities are hemorrhaging money right now, and funding lines are evaporating. Karen Kelsky of The Professor Is In has been keeping a crowdsourced document of (mostly US) institutions and what they’re doing with searches–if you google you should be able to find the document, it’s on google drive–and that might be helpful.

    4. whistle*

      Former academic here, so my advice may not be the most current, but I see no reason to wait to apply for faculty positions. If you don’t get an offer you just keep doing your postdoc. But what if you do get an offer? Not to be a downer, but in academia a single offer is hard to come by, so you gotta take it when it comes.

    5. AlsoPostdoc*

      Also a postdoc (US). COVID has killed my faculty job search plans. I’ve started to to feel like the only way to a faculty position in the next 2 years is through a K/R/other funding, as grim as that is. I’ve had colleagues who had their offers revoked when faculty searches were cancelled this Spring, and those people are still on the market now. Meanwhile you get all of this “cohort” of aging-out postdocs to compete with too…plus explicit hiring freezes at basically any institution, worse if there’s a hard-hit hospital attached? And only 5% of us got a faculty job in the before times? Who knows, maybe the people like you will be helped out by the on-the-fence postdocs like me who are spooked out of the market and go for industry…

      That said, if your goal is faculty, do not take a research associate position. Maybe a “senior research scientist” or (better) a soft-money research faculty job–something where you will be able to operate (& publish!!!) independently, and also where you’ll be eligible to apply for your own independent funding. Ideally something where you could have a path to a senior authorship.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        That said, if your goal is faculty, do not take a research associate position.

        I agree with this. I took a research position and later found I was no longer competitive for faculty positions. I was getting large grants and publishing, but somehow it didn’t count in the same way. Also, golden handcuffs became a real issue, when I was looking at a 20-30% pay cut for TT faculty positions.

        1. Postdoc*

          Does it make a difference if the research associate position is in the same lab as my current postdoc position? Essentially, I could continue exactly what I have been working on but they would convert me to a research associate if I hit that five year wall.

          1. CatsAway*

            I think that’s fine. I was a Postdoc and I knew a lot of people who considered themselves to be post-docs but were officially classified as some sort of research scientist, for a variety of reasons. For example: the department they were in only someone be a Postdoc for 3 years and then they had to become a research scientist, but they were still on grant money and looking for other jobs, or they ran into that 5 year clock but the lab still had funding for them, they needed to be classified as a research scientist to be a co-PI on grants etc. My institution has different job number classification for post-docs depending on where you get your funding from and every institution calls Postdoc’s something slightly different so as long as you’re still in a lab and publishing first author papers I don’t see that it would be an issue.

            I would guess that Ann O’Nemity is talking about a research associate position outside of academia. (At the very least no soft-money lab based research associate position pays 20-30% more than a TT position).

          2. Ann O'Nemity*

            Actually, I do think that may make a difference. You wouldn’t have a separate employer listed on your CV.

    6. OtterB*

      This is really field-dependent, so if you have a mentor or advisor (or better yet, several of them) you can ask what they think will happen. But my guess is nobody really knows. (I’m currently doing some research on this in computer science – changes to hiring plans, what new PhDs are doing, etc. And it’s all up in the air.)

    7. Paraclete*

      As a faculty member I would suggest that post-docs should be continuously applying for faculty positions. Apply widely (i.e., internationally if at all possible) and keep an open mind about what types of institutions you might like to work at.

      If you don’t find anything this year, you still have your post-doc. No PI will ever be annoyed if you leave for a TT position – they will be happy for your success and probably quite pleased to continue collaborating.

    8. blackcat*

      Apply to stuff. At worst, you do the work of getting your materials together and it makes applying a year later easier. Even better, you get practice interviewing. Best is you actually get a job.

      I applied to TT jobs ABD. I am in STEM, and this is Not Done, but my advisor encouraged me to do it for practice. If I had not just had a baby, this would have been excellent advice. It turned out to be bad advice because “Apply for practice!” turned into “Fly all over the country for TT interviews that are overwhelming and exhausting while my infant is going through medical crises and needing surgery.” I don’t think that is likely to happen to you for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I expect interviews next year to be conducted remotely.

      I did three fly outs that first year, and all three of them went terribly (2 were my fault, but one really, really was not. Holy dysfunctional department!). But the following year, I was an old pro and interviewed like a boss and landed a really great job.

      So I offer the same advice my advisor did: apply for practice.

      As for the taking a research associate position, I have no idea. That is field dependent. In my field, it typically reads as “This person was geographically bound for a while and so wrote grants and found themselves a salary” which is very much *not* a bad thing since it generally proves you can find money! But this is very field–and even subfield!–dependent. I would ask your postdoc advisor and other mentors in your specific research area.

    9. Manchmal*

      I’m an academic in the humanities. What’s the downside of going on the job market besides the time involved?

      1. BethDH*

        Depends on what you’re doing now and what you expect to be doing in future years. If you’re somewhere where you can focus on a few publications without having too many service obligations, that can help if you do get a TT role and need to produce lots in a stressful time. I’m not in one but all of us are taking on extra service responsibilities due to coronavirus related stuff and it’s especially high pressure for the EC folks who are also struggling with getting lots of publications out, especially since often humanities people don’t publish much if at all as grad students.

    11. Not for academics*

      Would it be better to wait?
      No, start whenever you want and have the time.

      Would taking a research associate position in a lab kill my prospects of eventually getting a faculty position?
      Probably not, but it depends. Getting a faculty position anywhere is already basically a zero chance, so it’s already a lottery. But if you end up with never ending postdocs, yeah it doesn’t look as good as someone who didn’t. Your best bet to secure long term steady employment is to get hired on as a lab manager, research associate, or something similar and plan to stay there indefinitely.

    12. AcademiaNut*

      Start applying for faculty positions, *if* you’re at the point in your field you would normally do so. But apply for good postdocs as well.

      I’m not sure about biomedical, but in my field (physical sciences), you’d be at the point to start applying for faculty positions, but would be on the junior end, particularly for more prestigious institutions – two postdocs and about five years of postdoc experience is pretty normal. Less than that and a person is either a superstar, or going for a non tenure track position (project work, for example).

      There’s a good chance you won’t get anything your first year of applying. Or your second. And maybe your third and fourth. So waiting will get you more papers, probably, but the competition will still be fierce, and you’ll be more senior, so you will be expected to have more papers anyways. And definitely don’t count on getting something before your five year hard limit at your current job – so apply for good second postdocs as well as faculty positions.

      I wouldn’t count on the job situation being better in a year or two. There’s a definite time lag between the larger financial situation and academic funding. Two years from now, a flood of budget cuts for research will be decimating hiring. Also, if you’re American and in the US, the suspension of new J1 and H1-B visas means that right at this moment, you won’t be competing against international applicants.

    13. amoeba*

      I’d start preparing everything now. Don’t know if it’s the same in your field (chemistry here), but I’ve had the impression that preparing the application and mostly writing the research proposal/teaching statement etc are a lot of work in the beginning, but then you can reuse most of it… Also heard from a lot of people that it’s really valuable to write those, also for yourself and your ideas and plans for your independent research.
      In my field (in my countries as well), I probably wouldn’t recommend going for a research associate position first – but they’re also really uncommon and generally kind of a “dead end” (or, more positively speaking, designed to be pretty permanent ;))

      Also, at least here in continental Europe, people are definitely still hiring I’m academia, I’ve seen quite a few postings and also know people who recently got a position, even with interviewing during COVID. But again, might be different elsewhere (US, I guess?)

      But then what do I know, I’m finishing my postdoc and moving to industry in a few months ;)

  4. Lena Carabina*

    How are you all managing during covid-19? Have your employees started to open up?
    How are you balancing working from home with everything else?

    Perhaps we could share concerns and tips on coping here if that’s within the spirit of the forum?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Managing as well as possible. Annoyed, of course, but also grateful I have the kind of job where I can work from home and not have to wear a mask all day and be in contact with the general public all day. Workplace is slowly starting to open up, but desks are spaced out, so you have to actually make a reservation to come into the office.

    3. Web Crawler*

      I work from home 95% of the time anyway, but it’s amazing how much of a difference that last 5% of the time makes. I’m having a very hard time staying motivated without seeing anyone in my team face-to-face every once in a while. It feels like I’m getting burned out, despite the work itself not having changed. Or maybe that’s just called depression.

      (Currently medicated and recieving therapy for anxiety and trauma stuff.)

      1. womp womp*

        My workplace is transitioning back into the office and frankly I feel far more isolated here than I did working from home. We’re all in temporary desks set up in work rooms, empty offices, and storage areas and cannot see anyone. We are discouraged from talking and told to chat via IM instead. We have to diligently wear masks and wipe down everything. I’d rather be breathing free back at home where I can at least hang out with my dog and do calls with my colleagues where we can talk freely.

        1. Choggy*

          I’m curious about why your company even decided to do this? What is the point if what you are doing is nothing different than working from home? Why the need to come into the office at all?

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            They may pay rent for the space and feel like they want to get their money’s worth. I once worked for a company that paid per cubicle, so the president of my division was very wary about letting people work from home.

          2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            Some supervisors fear that chairs hunger for butts and will come after the supervisor’s if there aren’t enough supervisees in the building to satiate them.

            2. Curmudgeon in California*

              I love it! Considering I had one high ranking manager get really, really offended when I called it “Butts in seats management”, it’s really funny.

          3. laughingrachel*

            It’s possible that some employees really really wanted to.

            My company is planning something something similar in Sept, and it’s a voluntary return. No one is required before at least 2021 when they will reassess. I take the virus very seriously but I will be going back in as soon as possible to do so safely. For me it’s because I live in a sub-500 sq ft studio literally opening onto my complex’s pool (RIGHT next to, there are people cheering and chanting and having a whiteclaw shotgun contest ~2 ft from my windows as we speak.) I am just not set up to work from my home, both physically and just personality wise. My productivity has suffered noticeably, not terrible, but not nearly my normal level. I need to work in a separate space than I live in if at all possible. An empty office/storage space/conference room sounds like a dream right now. Ahhh a quiet place not staring at the recycling I have been neglecting.

            I am able to walk to my workplace without touching anything except my door and the door to my office. They provided us with multiple comfortable masks that I can wash and rotate through, and are able to seat us extremely far apart. I am comfortable trading that slightly higher risk for not totally derailing my career plans, and also the knowledge that everyone I would be seeing in the office are all also volunteers who made the same risk/benefit calculation I did. And I’m sure there are some other people with roommates, and such other not ideal WFH set ups who would probably agree.

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          Honestly, if I worked outside of the home, I’d want my workplace to be set up like this right now. It may be isolating, but at least no one will get sick.

    4. blepkitty*

      My employer is thankfully not forcing me back to the office. I’m still struggling with being home alone all the time, and that plus the state of the world and some work problems pushed me into severe anxiety and depression. I’ve found a good therapist and psychiatrist, thankfully, but I’ve still been dropping the ball left and right at work. Plus I could really use FMLA at this point, for dealing with medication adjustments or really bad mental health days, but I don’t yet qualify for it. My boss seems to expect me to be working at 100% again, and I’m just not there.

      1. alligator aviator autopilot antimatter*

        I’m in a similar boat. I’m grateful that I’m not being forced to go back, even though my state is working on their “reopening.” But I really, really am not cut out for working from home. I’m not managing my time well, my boundaries between “online” and “offline” have been blurring as much as I’ve tried to keep them intact, I’m feeling really isolated and demoralized. I’m grateful to still be drawing my full paycheck, so so grateful, but I don’t really feel like I’m earning it with the level of work I’m actually accomplishing. I feel stuck and I hate it.

        1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          Yes, Im having a lot of problems too. This week has been all over sleeping and procrastinating. I just don’t have any clear direction and its getting to me

    5. AnotherAlison*

      In March, I was happy that circumstances were good for my employer. We’re an essential business, but most of my 1000+ person location can work from home productively, and we were not allowed to work at the office.

      I would like to get some of that attitude back.

      My state entered the “ending the restrictions” phase in mid-June, and we were supposed to go back to work at the end of last month. Now my state has moved to mandatory masks indoors, and we don’t have any projected date back in the office. I’m a project manager, and for my type of project and team members I haven’t worked with before, as well has having four external partners, remote work and no travel is a challenge. I also have a new scheduler, cost analyst, and project coordinator who have never worked in my dept. before, and the icing on the cake is my director/immediate boss is moving to another division. I’m kind of in the “I don’t wanna do this anymore, wahhh, poor me phase.” I know things are relatively GREAT for me, so I hate that I’m struggling with the situation. Other people love it, but I do know my grandboss is eager to go back too, so at least I’m not totally alone in this.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        To add to my current frustration levels, my August triathlon was just canceled minutes ago. I am not surprised and it’s probably the right move, but they could have made the decision earlier, like when the same org canceled their local July race in May. [Sorry not work related]

        1. AVP*

          In a sort-of-work-related sense, I’m hearing that a lot of similar races and events are actually having trouble cancelling as early as they’d like to, because if the city or state location doesn’t revoke their permits, they don’t get any insurance money, which jeopardizes their future races. Still super irritating, though! And malpractice on behalf of the municipalities to think they were really going to go ahead with things at this point…

          1. AnotherAlison*

            Yeah, I have heard that, too. Jurisdictions ought to go ahead and cancel everything for the rest of this year and save everyone a lot of aggravation. (Although the part that is crazy is youth sports resumed here. How is that safer than adult endurance racing that is not a direct contact sport?)

            1. Taura*

              They keep telling us “student athletics are back on! No they’re not! Yes they are! No! Yes – with masks! No – masks are too dangerous!” Wrt the last statement, I agree just because we have kids faint every year from the heat and humidity alone, they don’t need to be trying to do the football/marching band stuff with a mask on top – but then everybody just needs to agree to no student athletics this year, full stop. It’s absolutely ridiculous.

    6. Somebody*

      I’m not. It isn’t the working from home I mind, but my work is fun and engaging and takes place largely out in the community.

      I am feeling uninspired and like the work I am doing now is busy work and not having a significant impact on the systems I am trying to change. It is totally bumming me out.

      I have focused some of my unused energy on hiking, so at least I have something fun to focus my brain on!

    7. Amtelope*

      We’re managing. We’re still working 99% remotely, with the option now to come in occasionally to use work computers/Internet for lengthy video conferences. We don’t currently have a plan for re-opening, and we’ve been assured that even once we do, remote work will continue to be an option. This is good, because a number of people have kids in schools that have announced they’re limiting classroom time to two days a week or one week out of three for the fall.

      Right now the team I manage is operating on the basis of “I don’t care what hours you work as long as the project tasks get done.” We’re hitting our deadlines and getting through this. I think that’s the best we can possibly do.

    8. OTGW*

      I hate it!! My jobs aren’t something that can be worked from home (we’re non-essential, so March-May we were watching webinars) so now that numbers are going down for my state, we semi-opened in June, and then almost full services now in July. But I think it’s too soon. Our patrons are relatively fine so I don’t really have a reason to complain anyways but also…. it’s too soon. And I’m taking summer courses online and I’m just…. tired. I’m done with everything. I’m tired of my jobs catering to the patrons instead of thinking about their employees. But y’know :) we don’t matter anyway :) and i need a paycheck :)

    9. Lyudie*

      My company is being very cautious about bringing us back to the offices…we’ll be staggering going back and it won’t be till early/mid August at the earliest. We’re healthcare-related so I think that helps. Personally I am mostly ok but I recognize I have some privilege in that area: I have a good WFH setup, no pets or kids, practically everything I do can be done remotely (the occasional in-person event I need to help with is fairly rare and of course those aren’t happening now).

      I think one thing that has helped my husband and I a ton is that we both have separate offices in different rooms (though we share a wall). We don’t get on each other’s nerves too much because we have our own spaces.

    10. Generic Name*

      I’ve gotten used to working from home. We can come in to the office if we want, but there are strict protocols (which is good) such as only one person per shared office can be in there at any given time. Most are choosing to continue to work from home, and it’s mainly the front office personnel and field staff who come in to get equipment.

      That said, I’ve just seen my son’s school district’s plan for school in the fall, and I’m struggling with it a bit. Parents can choose to send their child in 100% of the time, and there is no cap for how many people are in the building (meaning it’s not “50% of enrollment” or whatever), OR parents choose to keep their child at home learning remotely. As a working parent, it feels like an impossible choice. My son is a teenager, so I don’t need to care for his physical needs, but I do need to monitor his schoolwork, because I discovered towards the end of the year last year that he was lying about doing his work. My husband is a carpenter and he has been working outside the house for the duration (he’s in construction and works outdoors), so I’m the one who needs to deal with my son’s school work on my own. If my husband doesn’t work, he doesn’t get paid. I’m dreading school starting back up next month.

    11. SomebodyElse*

      If I’m honest, I haven’t noticed any difference during this period, besides the obvious of WFH full time. I’m at 100% of my normal productivity and work load. (To be fair I only have an office at my location and don’t work day to day with the others in my location, so even being in the office I’m 100% remote from the team I manage and my extended department) I’m bored and I miss seeing people. I really miss my office plants… allegedly the people who have been in the office during this time have been watering them. I do weirdly miss traveling for work a little bit and think it’s going to be hard to go back to it when that restriction loosens.

      My dog has kept up her normal schedule during this time with daycare, the cats have been loving having me home… apparently I have one that follows teachers schedules, since he hung out with me all day until the weather got warm and now he’s done with ‘work’. Another cat is following construction seasons, as he’s my new summer coworker.

      My employer has plans for reopening, but has no timeline for when that will start. I don’t expect to see my office until at least December and that will only happen if we start bringing people back around Labor Day.

      My team is more or less doing the same work as before, except we had to scramble a little for shared equipment use that could not be sent to a home.

      I’ve had one employee that hasn’t coped well (isolated from help, toddler, non covid illness, and was new to the role when this started). I’ve largely just left her to it for the past couple of months letting her do what she can. It’s hurt the team, but not much I can do, I’d rather have a little work from her than no work at all.

    12. What's with Today, Today?*

      I’m in media. In Texas. Seriously thinking about quitting. The abuse we are getting is real. People think this is fake, the state is days away from disaster and I got called hellspawn yesterday. Fear Monger has become normal, but hellspawn was a new one. I’ve been trying so hard to people informed and safe and I’m starting to wonder if the low pay and constant abuse are worth the mental exhaustion and anxiety.

      1. regular reader, rare commenter*

        I’m so sorry. I’m in Texas too and the amount of people willingly living in ignorance is absolutely unbelievable.

      2. Hester Mae*

        I’m so sorry, Today. There is just so much cognitive dissonance in this situation.

        My work doesn’t have the issues your does, be even so I find myself just not believing this just keeps getting worse because of poor leadership.

      4. Eleanor Knope*

        That is incredibly frustrating, I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with it!

      5. Anonnington*

        I hear you. I once worked for a controversial company and got a lot of that too.

        For me, the decision to leave was based on the fact that I shared some of the main concerns about the company. And they didn’t seem to be invested in making the kinds of changes they need to make.

        I can’t comment on your situation, obviously. But I think the unpopular media is playing a key role in areas where the pandemic is growing worse and people don’t know what to believe. Some people probably do take your content seriously. You’re probably saving lives.

        Often, the most unhappy and ignorant people are the loudest. What you’re hearing is probably not representative of your readership / viewership.

        But that doesn’t change the effect, and I get that you need to take care of yourself.

        Just know that you are or have been making a difference and, for that, you deserve a lot of respect. And I think that will come your way in time.

    13. StellaBella*

      Well I just started a new 8 month contract at a place that is moderately flexible. I take a train to work, wear a mask, wash my hands like 10 times a day, and will be working at home some days soon. I have our local covid app on my phone (I am not in the US) and am hoping all goes ok. I am managing my risk ok overall but still worry. We have rising cases so….yeah.

    14. Retail not Retailns*

      It’s a daily struggle – masks do SUCK in the heat and humidity, but then again 75% humidity would suck regardless.

      What’s annoying are some of the new safety measures – at least 3 people got it and are part of what we’re all cursing as “the lunch bunch.” The solution is more “break rooms” and 3 of these are tables outside. We’re also not allowed to spend time in the public indoor spaces – we can buy food on site from the special plague window, but we can only eat in our special places.

      Outdoor breakrooms coming from people who have offices? “I have to eat in my office alone now” one said looking for sympathy. Thanks! I just wanna sit in the AC and the shade on my lunch.

    15. Pamela Adams*

      I am an academic advisor. My university system decided early to stay remote for Fall, and we are strongly encouraged to work from home. I miss my students, but working through Zoom/Teams is manageable.

      1. Syfygeek*

        Our first summer session was online. The second is in person. Groups of students walking together, hanging out, playing basketball, and most not wearing masks. I’m more nervous about what happens when thousands of students are back here, and not following protocols than I have been since this started.

    16. Mama Bear*

      Many of us are anxiously watching what the schools do. There are no great options. Just slightly less bad ones. We were recently asked to re-apply for WFH privileges but a lot of companies are calling folks back to the office. My office never closed but a lot of people are remote now.

    17. Jen RO*

      For now, we know that we won’t go back to the office this year, and “the office will be different next year”. I’m optimistic – my company has handled the situation very well so far.

      Overall, WFH is going pretty great for me, tbh. Before this, I worked in the office 99% of the time and enjoyed it, but I got used to WFH very fast. I already had a good home setup (a desk, two monitors etc), so only minor changes were needed. My industry has not been very impacted by the pandemic, so far, so I’m not afraid for my job. All I need to do my job is a computer, so the only thing I am missing is face-to-face interaction with people… and I lean toward introverted, so I don’t miss it *that* much.

    18. OhGee*

      Doing ok. I’ve been working from home until mid-March and expect to be doing so at least through the end of the year. There are ups and downs to not going to the office — I love not driving every day (my commute is about 17 miles, not the worst, but there are no reasonable public transportation options and it’s a bit further than I’d like to bike) but I am also now around my partner, who will be working from home permanently, almost constantly. We like and love each other, but some variety in our contact with other people would be nice. The three things I did that improved my work from home life are: buy a decent office chair, buy an air conditioner for my office (a guest bedroom), and repaint the walls (a project I’d been neglecting). I’ve also made sure to meditate, do a bit of exercise, and spend time in my vegetable gardens nearly every day – those things all alleviate stress and anxiety for me.

    19. Mockingjay*

      My company (once again, thank you Alison and AAM for helping me land this job!) sent out an all-hands email regarding reopening. Based on state guidance (or lack of), they had slowly begun allowing a few people (who chose to) back into the office. Given the recent massive uptick in active cases (our state is third in the WORLD for active COVID case increases), they are rescinding permissions and going back to 99-100% telework until fall, at minimum.

      I am truly grateful to be working in an industry that can operate remotely and for a company that promotes that option. Management noted that business operations are running very smoothly; we’ve even brought on new staff.

    20. Lena Carabina*

      Ah man I just lost a loooong reply! Grr.

      I like your tips OhGee, thanks for those. You have reminded me that I like and need to do more exercise to help me cope a bit better.
      I am no
      t sure about going swimming (something I usually enjoy, and have missed very much) when the pools open at the end of July here though (England).

      I am struggling being on my own – even as introverted as I am. My employers have been great, and continue to keep our well being a high priority. We aren’t going back to the offices until at least late autumn.
      I would actually like to be based as a home worker and think I could do it – I would be able to go in twice a week for the team meeting, and home and ward visits to our patients, then work from home a couple of days a week.

      My previous line manager, who just went off before the lockdown, was dead against this. He didn’t trust us to do our work (even though our productivity was better) and used to micromanage us to within an inch of our lives. Plus you had to almost beg to work from home sometimes! So it wasn’t worth it.
      Our new boss seems ok with it so I am hoping that wfh will be more of an option than it was before Covid-19.

      I am really having a hard time with uni though. My Masters (psychology) is experiential and requires practice and work placements. They moved the seminars online and cancelled everything else for the last term, even though I felt they could have done stuff via video conferencing, but I guess I understood it because everyone was in the same boat. Anyway. the university just sent us all an email asking us to be volunteers for a virtual open day and I have been furious ever since, especially because we all paid full price for the course that term.
      If they can organise an away day online for people all over the country, they can organise slightly more difficult discussion and counselling type classes virtually as well. So I have not been doing well with the uncertainty there either.

      Sorry for the moan.

      1. OhGee*

        I’m glad I could be helpful! I’m sorry school is challenging right now — that must be frustrating to see your uni managed to organize some virtual programming but not all of the pieces you need for your degree.

    21. Wastin' Away in Margaritaville*

      We’re on WFH for another month at least. Our fiscal year started in July and the budget was 10% lower than last year, which hit benefits hard, but nobody’s furloughed or laid off. The contractors are all worried they’re losing their jobs if there is more cost cutting. Since we’re a non-profit there’s also a big concern that donations will be down because of people not working/working less.

    22. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I’m having a really hard time.

      My kid not being in school is incredibly hard on all of us. Our babysitter started working for us again in early June, but I’m only just starting to feel like “oh good someone else is on duty” and not “AAAA THERE IS YET ANOTHER PERSON IN OUR SMALL HOUSE”. If I hear my child making noise, it’s really distracting—as a parent, I can’t not pay attention—and of course adults are noisy too. I used to love WFH because I was the only one home all day. Now I hate it because everyone’s here with me.

      Also I realized I’m getting SAD in July, and I’m much less fit, because I never leave the house anymore. Usually I’d spend all summer walking around the city and getting sun and exercise. I miss that a lot. Everyone says “just make time for it”, but overcoming the gravity of being at home is hard without my commute or other appointments as an excuse. The stress of the general situation plus teething plus fireworks has had my kid waking up multiple times a night, so I’m not sleeping. I’m not eating as well as I could either. And no matter how I rearrange my workspace it’s never really comfortable (tried a standing desk with an ergo keyboard, tried a fancy chair, tried a footstool…).

      In summary: my body feels like crap, my brain is full of bees, and I’m too tired and distracted to muster up the focus that my job requires.

      I keep having fantasies of taking a month off from work to take care of myself, or quitting altogether. There’s no real way for me to do either of those things, though, so I’m just struggling along as best I can.

      1. Lena Carabina*

        my body feels like crap, my brain is full of bees, and I’m too tired and distracted to muster up the focus that my job requires.
        I keep having fantasies of taking a month off from work to take care of myself, or quitting altogether. There’s no real way for me to do either of those things, though, so I’m just struggling along as best I can.

        Oh I can relate to all of this! You’re not alone. Big virtual best wishes and hugs to you if you want them.

    23. Amethystmoon*

      I’m doing some social things online, which helps. Toastmasters has totally gone to Zoom now at least until September, which is what our overarching organization tells us. Though groups tend to be smaller now that it’s summer and some people have technical issues with Zoom. I do some online gaming which helps also, but it’s summer, so our groups tend to be sporadic. Being nerdy definitely helps. You can at least get games on Steam to distract you. I’ve been also watching some older TV shows (yay, classic Dr. Who all spring marathon) and crocheting. Reading is helping too somewhat.

    24. Gatomon*

      I’ve been forced back in to the office. The office has had to backtrack to partial WFH as local cases started spiking, but our VP isn’t doing his part by enacting that policy change because he evidently doesn’t take it seriously. I really never did much in-person collaboration previously, and many other teams actually never completely returned to the office. I’ve actually spent several days at my desk as the only person in my area.

      I’ve been surviving in office mostly exactly how I got through the isolation of WFH living alone: constant music or podcasts on my headphones and frankly a lot of phone use just to feel some connection with the world. I’m also goofing around with the motion detectors for the overhead lighting to see if a) I can find a position in my cube that doesn’t trigger any of them with normal movements and b) if I can enter/exit the area without setting them off like a super spy.

      1. Lena Carabina*

        Are you goofing around for a particular reason or just to keep yourself entertained? :)

  5. Not A Girl Boss*

    This week I had an 8 hour remote interview. 8 HOURS! Plus I had to start off the day with a half hour presentation. I almost said no, but job prospects being what they are…

    The particularly frustrating part is that they are all 1-on-1 interviews scheduled for 1 hour, so I ended up with awkward breaks every half hour or so because we end early.
    I also didn’t get a lunch break.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That sucks. I think some hiring managers or employers don’t realize how much more draining an all-day video interview schedule is compared to an all-day in-person interview schedule (which is already a bit draining, just less so).

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        As luck would have it, it was also super hot and humid and I do not have A/C at home. I just sat in a puddle of sweat all day because I didn’t want the background noise from my windows open or fan, and I was extra conservative in my attire.

      2. Remote HealthWorker*

        All day in person interviews are a brutal Marathon where you have to be “on” the entire time.

        At least with this format and the unscheduled breaks you could take 20 mins on the couch to watch your favorite you tube clip, read, play a video game, or something.

    2. irene adler*

      Eight hours??
      That’s a lot to expect from a candidate. Surprised they didn’t schedule in a break or two during that time. Rather inconsiderate if you ask me.

      I had a 3 hour remote interview a couple of weeks ago. This was 15 people interviewing me- in groups of 2-5 people at one time.

      One group did not ask me any questions at all. They introduced themselves and then said “Sorry, we don’t have any questions for you.” They explained that they didn’t want to ask me any questions I may have already been asked by an earlier interview. Who does that? So I had to fill the entire 30 minute time allotted for this interview. Fortunately I had prepared plenty of questions and fired away on them. They were polite and answered everything I asked.

      Having major second thoughts about them.

      2. Not A Girl Boss*

        …wut? I am genuinely so confused. How weird of them. Or, I guess, you could always view it as “thank you for revealing that your company is full of weird people?”

    3. Yada Yada II*

      Good lord, that was very badly handled on their end. I wish you all the best … even if that company is waving somewhat of a red flag. Kinda hard to tell, the way things are these days. (But, “the ways things are these days” is also turning into a big fat excuse for some bad corporate behavior.)

    4. ampersand*

      Wow, this sounds so draining! No lunch break is rough–it’s odd they didn’t factor that in.

      How do you think the interviews and presentation went?

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Thanks. I think it all went well. I think it would be a good fit, and I like the culture feel of the people who would be my coworkers. But I’d be much more confident if the meeting scheduling wasn’t so yellow flaggy.
        Also, the HR manager bragged about how they recently combined into one time off pool with sick + vacation time (from 10 vacation + unlimited sick, to 15 days off). As a migraine sufferer, that’s pretty much the worst because now I have to reserve all vacation time in the off chance I get taken out by a week long migraine.

        1. ampersand*

          That’s good it otherwise went well!

          I don’t see how going from unlimited to limited time off is viewed as a positive/something to brag about on their end—that is not a selling point for most (any?) potential employees.

      2. charo*

        But if they all ended early, so you had awkward time to fill, then you did have time to eat something then. Be positive.

        I think 8 of these is awful but you have to expect you might have some down time and plan accordingly. Have food ready, a magazine or book, take care of yourself!

    5. nep*

      Sitting here with my jaw on the floor.
      (How common is that, y’all?)
      Man, that sounds rough. All the best, Not A Girl Boss.

      1. Golden*

        My company did this to a candidate and yeah, I could tell the person was having a rough time. (I had no say in scheduling, just got the itinerary the day before). The candidate also had to give a presentation and a whole day’s worth of meetings.

        They were visibly running out of steam (heck, I was running out of steam on my meeting with them) at about the halfway point. One of their meetings was also their lunch break so I guess they had to eat on camera. The hiring manager kept making jokes about it being a long day.

        If I hear of another interview upcoming I will definitely say something to the hiring manager about optimizing the schedule.

        1. Not A Girl Boss*

          I do think its worth pointing out that the calculus could make this a poor investment for a well qualified applicant. I had to take an entire vacation day, where I can usually flex around a few 2-hour interviews. Also, I had to spend 2 evenings making a presentation. So I was heading into the interview already like “Ugh, this better be the greatest place I’ve ever worked or this was so not worth it.” Not a great first impression.

          Especially since it was a startup, so it felt a little “we haven’t evolved our hiring practices to fit the size of our organization” which was yellow flag-y to me.

      2. Not A Girl Boss*

        I am in a technical industry, so its not the *most* uncommon thing – but its always been more like 2-3 panel interviews in the morning, and a skills assessment in the afternoon. This was (I just counted) a presentation, a panel interview, and then 8 1-on-1 interviews. And all of the get-to-know-you type.

    6. RestroomTimeExtraordinaire*

      that’s awkward! Such poor structure on the part of HR or the hiring manager, whomever arranged this. So Sorry! I can only imagine that it was difficult keeping your energy up for such a sustained period… and feeling deja vu for having to (likely) answer the same or similar questions from 8 different interviewers.

      It could have been a panel interview, with maybe two or three sessions, rather than this. :(

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        The deja vu was definitely the worst part. I kept faltering in the middle of a story like “sorry, did I already use this example wit you?”

    8. Unladen European Swallow*

      I totally feel your pain. I also had a full day of remote interviews yesterday: 8:30am-4:45pm. It was supposed to end at 4:30pm, but my last conversation ran over. I’m applying for a fairly senior administration position within higher education, so all day interviews for finalists aren’t uncommon…. but it was still brutal. Mine included a 1hr presentation/Q&A, but I luckily got an hour break a more 15min breaks throughout the morning and afternoon. I was impressed at how thoughtfulyl the interview schedule was arranged – yay for bathroom breaks!

      I also thought about whether or not to turn on my window unit AC, but made the calculation that a general low humming noise in the background was better than visible sweat running down my face.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Oof, thats rough. I know all day interviews can be common but they just are so exhausting. Honestly I’d rather have 2x 4-hour interviews.

    9. KuklaRed*

      That sounds miserable. I would be having serious second thoughts about a place that would treat a candidate so rudely.

      It reminds me of an interview I had a few years ago. I was flown cross-country to interview for a managerial position with a tech company in my industry. I came to the office at the appropriate time and they put me in a small conference room/spare office. I was in there for 7.5 hours straight, with different people coming in to speak with me on a rotating basis. No one ever offered me anything to drink, asked if I needed a bio break, or asked if I would like something to eat, as they all traipsed in during the lunch time hours with their food, eating in front of me while my stomach growled.

      Miserable experience. I flew home the next day and withdrew from consideration.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Terrible. Actually, my first job out of college was like that. I mean, not really, it was very well organized as it was a mass hiring event, but you reminded me of it.
        They provided breakfast at 7am, but the vegetarian option was just fruit and pastries, and then lunch wasn’t until 1pm. I hid in a bathroom stall and scoffed a protein bar during a 5 minute break. Thank goodness I had thought to stash one in my clutch. Now I never go to interviews without one.

      2. Lolllo*

        Do you think they were checking to see if you would take the initiative and tell them you were needing/taking a break and would be back in 10 mins (bio, stretch, walk around)?

        I tend to be hypoglycemic, and if I went that long without eating (not to even address the lack of water, coffee and bathroom breaks!) I would not be in a fit state to be with strangers who were annoying me by being thoughtless. I would have hated to do it but I would have had to said that I needed to take a break to eat and what would work best for them? I am usually go with the flow, but some things require taking the helm.

        Would they have expected your working habits to follow the example set by the interview?

        Just weird. All around!

    10. charo*

      This when a Tuna Pasta Salad w/some vegs. in it really hits the spot. Something premade, cool, one-dish, there waiting for you in the fridge. Maybe some Jello too. Just take care of yourself!

  6. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

    “Thick skin” definitely runs along the same lines as “we’re like family here”. This is not a professional operation you’d be signing up for.

    1. Mazzy*

      Was this a stand alone comment or it’s own? Either way, I wanted to comment. At a past job, some of the customers were brusque and with some, there was a language barriers. And we had to make phone calls. So we definitely needed people who could deal with some awkward moments or customers who were perceived as rude, hanging up without saying bye, for example. But the job was good and paid well. And the customers were neutral on us, so they were just being themselves, I learned over time.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is a good reason to use “thick skin”!

        I have had those kinds of customer bases.

        However on the flip side, to counteract the customer base, we were all very easier going with each other. What I hate is “thick skin” to deal with your colleagues. No, they need to just soften their approach or fix their unacceptable way of speaking! Customers though, that’s whole new ballgame.

        But I have so much more patience when someone’s paying us while being a pain in the ass ;)

    2. Cynical B*****

      Gah. The one time I worked for a mom-n-pop shop, they tried that ‘we’re like family here’ bit.

      I felt like the foster child they had taken in for the tax deduction

  7. Anonymous Non-Anthropologist*

    How do people list an unfinished PhD on their resume? I was in anthropology, loved doing the masters (which I will list) and all the coursework, but realized in the field that isolated, unguided work in a foreign country sucks the life out of me. I stumbled into a new career by chance and love it, but I’m not sure how to list the time I spent in the field. I had a grant, so I was technically paid as a field researcher, but I didn’t complete the PhD, just the masters. I’ve had two jobs since then, but both landed in my lap from connections – I haven’t sent a resume out in a while.

    1. BRR*

      You either only put the masters or say course work towards phd in anthropology. Unless the course work strengthens your application for a role, i would probably just list the masters.

      1. Anonymous Non-Anthropologist*

        I guess I’m wondering about the 3-year gap between the masters and another job. It seems odd to list nothing and I wasn’t doing any coursework – I was assistant teaching, then teaching my own courses, then in the field. The research did result in publication, just not a final dissertation.

        1. Rainy*

          The research and fieldwork and teaching can go in their appropriate buckets, but if you are listing teaching assistantships, you need to provide some context, and that likely means leaving in the PhD work.

        2. Hi there*

          I am in a similar situation and list the teaching as a job. Fellow anthropologist here!

    3. Myrin*

      I list mine as “(discontinued)” – I probably wouldn’t list it at all if it was only a year or so but I did it for three years and I don’t want people wondering what I’ve been doing for three years.
      (Nota bene – I’m in Germany and our CVs and stuff differ sometimes drastically from American resumés, as does our educational system, so it’s pretty easy for me to list my doctoral stint the same way I list my Bachelor’s and Master’s, just with the “discontinued” in brackets.)

    4. Txag18*

      Alison actually answered a similar question this morning!

      “Yep, you’d list it this way:
      * Graduate coursework in turtle folk songs, Tortoise College, 2019-2020
      Be prepared to be asked about it interviews — both why you went and why you stopped — but it shouldn’t be a big deal.”

    5. Rainy*

      Did you pass comps? You can list “Coursework toward the PhD” with a date range (beginning after the MA), but if you left ABD, that’s a different thing and gets listed differently. If it doesn’t bolster your candidacy for a specific role I might go ahead and leave it out.

      Make sure to include the research and fieldwork experience. Remember that academic research doesn’t have to be paid to “count” especially for résumé purposes. Experience is experience, and a lot of hum/socsci fields the research is done basically unpaid.

      1. blackcat*

        Yeah, if you were officially ABD, I’d list that.

        Otherwise, I’d basically just list the masters under education, then the jobs you held while studying as regular jobs. I’ve seen resumes like this and I 100% get it.

      2. Anonymous Non-Anthropologist*

        The way our program worked is that you passed comps (which was writing a thesis for us rather than exams) and received a masters, then completed other requirements and advanced to candidacy, which I did. I was ABD. Listing the masters isn’t difficult, but the ABD context is weird, especially since I’m not in an academic field. The fieldwork I did – ethnography, interviewing, research, writing, public speaking, etc. – are all relevant to my work in some way.

        I’d like to list something like “Field Researcher” and then the institution and PhD Candidate to make it clear. I don’t want to inflate the work, as though I was hired to be a researcher, but I do want to list the experience, so I’m hoping listing the PhD Candidate status would make it clear.

        1. Reba*

          I mean, I think PhD Candidate (the exact meaning, i.e. “advanced to candidacy”) and ABD are both non-common-knowledge things outside academia.

          I’m not sure I’d put “field researcher” as if it was a job title — you need to highlight all those skills, but as a PhD researcher, your boss was really yourself; you weren’t answerable to others the way you are in a job. I hope it makes sense what I’m getting at.

          What about something like:

          MA, Fancy University, 2016

          PhD Candidate, Fancy University, 2016-2019 [or PhD Candidate — Field Research … etc]
          *Field research in Exciting Country — executed self-directed ethnographic research project, interviewing 50 subjects over 12 months, supported by Very Competitive Grant, leading to lectures and publication
          *Presented research results, other topics in current anthropology [?] at Big Conference, the most important meeting of anthropologists in North America
          *published peer-reviewed scholarly article [or maybe list this in a different place, idk]
          *taught X and Y classes (45 students) as instructor of record, and Z class as teaching assistant
          *completed coursework toward PhD

          1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

            I think I like “PhD candidate”. I have also put a section called “academic research” on some versions of my CV (in the UK) with some stuff I did that isn’t necessarily obvious just from the fact that I have degrees. Maybe something like that could work? Depending on how you word it you won’t be implying that you finished the PhD but can still point out that you did work on that level.

        2. BioMed PhD*

          Did you have a title other than graduate student? Paid positions are commonly called something like “graduate research assistant” or “teaching assistant”, which you could list.

    6. Lost academic*

      I have seen and myself use ABD (assuming it’s true for you). All But Dissertation. Family and financial circumstances made it unreasonable to finish in the time I could take and I also realized there was no planned future value and I was really not going to continue in academia.

    7. cleo*

      I’d list it as ABD or course work completed in your education section.

      And I’d list your actual activities under work – assistant teacher, teacher, field worker. They still count as work even though you were a grad student. That’s what i did for my first few years after Grad school.

  8. blepkitty*

    So since I think a couple people have been following this story, an update: this week, my (surprise!) boss Jane insisted upon reviewing my work before allowing me to send it to the (internal) client. She allowed it through, but we have to meet to discuss it. Also, I asked her for help on the work because it’s pretty clear she hates every judgment call I make. She gave me some advice I hadn’t thought of, yes, but in the end, I still think my way of handling it would’ve been better for what the client wanted. I’ve given up trying to discuss this with her.*

    After I finished, Jane asked me to write up my “lessons learned” from the project. I wrote up half her advice as if it were completely new to me, rather than “this slipped my mind because I’m anxious/human and/or I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing it without Jane’s permission and/or I don’t even think this was a good idea.” I wanted to shrivel up and die doing it (social anxiety problems), but Jane was thrilled, by which I mean she only nitpicked a single word.

    So I’m pretty sure at this point that I’m on a PIP that nobody wants to call a PIP? And I don’t care as much as I should, because I’m clearly not suited for this place.

    I do have to say thank you to whoever told me to imagine myself being an anthropologist observing aliens to keep from crying in meetings. It turns out to be useful not just in not crying, but in following my therapist’s advice for preventing my severe anxious reactions in response to Jane and my other boss’s behavior.

    *How I wish I were better at keeping in touch with people, so that I could ask my most trusted former colleague her opinion on this.

    1. knitcrazybooknut*

      This sounds so frustrating. Anthropologist is one of my favorites. Another is my image of myself in a scientist’s lab coat holding a clipboard. If you want to give yourself props, carry a clipboard to meetings! Wear a white coat! Stay in character and you can keep your emotional distance. It’s a tough situation, and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with it.

      1. blepkitty*

        Thanks. Since we’re still all opting to work at home and only having virtual meetings, I could totally wear an actual lab coat for laughs (except I’ve blown my budget for the month on ridiculously expensive ergonomic crochet hooks, so maybe next month, or perhaps a scientist in my family has one I could borrow). Fortunately Jane doesn’t even have a webcam, so I keep mine off when I meet with her.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      That sounds very frustrating. If you have not done so, I would recommend asking your manager if you are on a PIP. This is information you should know so that you know the terms (what exactly they want to see from you and by when) and understand how shaky of a situation you are in.

      1. blepkitty*

        I’ll consider it. Unfortunately, I don’t know if they even know what a PIP is. They just instituted formal employee evaluations with goals for the unit *this year*, and my boss didn’t even want to come up with goals for me (months ago, before these trainings began).

    3. blepkitty*

      Oh, also, I finally cracked open the book on doing my job that Jane had sent to me but never gave me instructions for. It’s designed for someone who hasn’t even started working in my career yet and contains a lot of information that I learned during my first student job in the field and/or during graduate school, close to ten years ago!

      And it’s every bit as micromanaging as Jane herself. One bit of advice was to make sure you smile when you answer the phone, because the smile will transfer with your voice! In a book that is not specifically about, say, workplace etiquette, or any other topic that would justify talking about manners.

    4. WellRed*

      Healthy workplaces do not require employees to “write up lessons learned.” It’s infantilizing. Did you write it on a chalkboard. You can’t win with these people but I suspect you realize that at this point.

      1. blepkitty*

        Thanks for the confirmation about it being infantilizing. They’ve been pulling this stuff on me for so many months it’s hard for me to remember what’s normal!

        I definitely know I can’t win. I’m actively job hunting, but trying to stick to the jobs that I actually want (this one was a good pay + allowed me to stay local compromise when I was desperate, that I would’ve been able to stick out for a few years if not for …this insanity), so it’s going to take a while.

        1. Pamela Adams*

          Also, remembering that this idiocy paid for those ergonomic crochet hooks might help.

          1. blepkitty*

            It does in a way, but unfortunately it’s a reminder that I’m pretty much stuck in my career path because it’s that or be poor (or go back to school and take on debt for another job I won’t love; my passion for fiber arts is too fickle for me to make any money off of it). This field turns out to be notorious for terrible management, and I haven’t yet had a workplace in it that *wasn’t* toxic.

      2. AnonymousDirector*

        Maybe they don’t all call this exercise lessons learned, but most well functioning workplaces do have a postmortem process for projects. It helps to ensure that mistakes aren’t repeated and identify how to replicate the wins in the future. This is not infantilizing; reviewing and learning from the past is a normal way adults optimize their work in order to continuously improve.

        1. blepkitty*

          Considering that this comes after months of being trained on things I already know (they’re essential to my career—I’m early career but by no means entry level), with my boss not understanding why I find it condescending that Jane has decided to teach me things like how to use the World’s Biggest Teapot Compendium as if it hasn’t been an integral part of my career for years, and that the thing that makes Jane happiest on her “lessons learned” assignments is if I *pretend I didn’t know the thing she taught me and answer as if I just learned it for the first time,* I’m not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. It’s infantilizing.

          Also, Jane doesn’t want any actual input from me. If I try to explain why I did something or am hesitant to do what she wants me to, she just ignores me or misinterprets. There’s never any two-way discussion, consideration of my ideas, or even recognition that I am an intelligent human whose ideas are worth considering. (I am, I swear, an intelligent human whose ideas are worth considering!)

    5. Not today, Satin*

      BlepKitty
      Reach out to your former trusted colleague, not to ask about this Jane issue, but just to reopen communications. This instance with Jane underscores the value of staying in touch with trusted colleagues. Don’t feel like that door has closed – think about how pleased you’d be if tomorrow you got an email from trusted colleague.

  9. LikeTheCity*

    What’s the best way to turn in notice when working from home due to COVID? I’m currently not in the office and will be turning my notice in soon. Very glad to get out of a toxic, highly mismanaged workplace but not sure about the best way to go about this since we’re not face to face. Part of me wants to email it and then be done but part of me feels I should call since we aren’t in the office. However, if I call, my manager is liable to make things extremely uncomfortable. I can foresee tears, pleading, etc. (“We’re a family” type workplace, very small, she takes everything way WAY too personally.) Thoughts?

    1. Lygeia*

      I think you get as close to how you would turn in your notice if you were in the office. So a zoom or a call. Yeah, it sucks that your manager might not take it well, but that’d be true if you were able to do it in person, right?

      Maybe have a call or meeting scheduled for right after so you can at least have a firm end time to the conversation? Like “I need to jump off now, but we can continue to discuss offboarding plans throughout the day.” Or something like that.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. And a call is better because if the manager does act a fool, OP can always mute the phone and/or end the call early. It’s much harder to end an awkward conversation face to face.

    2. Just J.*

      I feel a phone call is the more professional way to go. I know it will be uncomfortable, but if we were all working in the office and not from home, would you have sent an email or done it face-to-face? The answer to that is how you should handle it now.

    3. toowitchestocomesorry*

      Email sounds like your best bet. She’s going to make this uncomfortable either way, so minimize contact as much as possible. If you do decide to call, have a script and stick to it. Limit your time, but be polite about it.

    4. Lena Carabina*

      Ring your boss then follow it up with an email to confirm. Keep it simple, write a script to help to read off if you need to, and just keep repeating the same message “it’s flattering that you’re keen to keep me here but it’s time for me to move on and I will make sure all my work is tied up for the next person to take over”.
      If your boss really doesn’t get the message and becomes difficult, you can add “I’m happy to work my full notice but would it make sense to finish today?”

      Keep the email to 1-2 sentences just confirming the date you’re leaving.

      Good luck!

      1. OTGW*

        I’d probably also do this. A call is probably more professional, but even if my boss was normal, I’d want that paper trail saying I’m leaving at whatever date. So send the email right after.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You should call. Write down what you want to say and any points you want to touch on, make them brief, then stop talking. If you’re moving on to a new position, write that in BIG FREAKING LETTERS (something like, “I HAVE A NEW JOB”) on a piece of paper and look at it every time your manager makes things weird. This also works for “I AM LEAVING THIS HELLHOLE”.

      Remember that on a phone call, no one can see you roll your eyes. (Definitely don’t schedule a video call.)

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I had to give notice remotely before (not during Covid-19 but still remotely). Honestly, I also had to deal with the pleading, and it was super awkward, but I still felt good about putting in my notice over the phone. You should have an email ready to go as official notice, which you send after the phone call, but make the phone call.

      Just remember—if they try to make it a conversation or a negotiation, hold firm that you’re letting them know you’re leaving; you aren’t asking them if you can leave.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      I sent an email. A while back I had to resign on a day that I was working from home. I was going on vacation the next week, so I had to put in my resignation that day. So I set up a phone chat with my boss and it did not go well because she had no idea I was going to resign and it was very awkward.
      So when I had to change jobs during Covid, I just sent an email. I thought that would give my boss the buffer she needed to absorb the information and respond well.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I’d rather have pleading over yelling, but that is me.

      Line up something that you “have to” do before starting the conversation. This could be work related or it could be the famous dental appointment excuse.

      So this could look like, “Boss, I just had to give you a call but I do need to run shortly as I have a [meeting, dr appt, whatever] that I must go to. I am sending you my formal resignation, I will be moving on as of X day, Y date.”

      Boss: blah, blah, blah, boo-hoo, boo-hoo

      You: Yes, I am sad about it also. [Shift focus] I will have X task completed and Y project will be done next week. The following week I will be doing a, b and c to help ease the transition.

      Boss: Boo-hoo, boo-hoo.

      You: Yeah, I know. It has taken me a bit to actually do this because as you say, it’s sad. But I think this change is good for me [launches a new path for me, is closer to home, whatever]. Whoops! OH MY! Look at the time! I have to get going or I will be late for [meeting/appointment]. I will keep you up to date as to what I have completed as we go along.”

      1. Marthooh*

        I came down here to recommend having an appointment scheduled for just after the phone call. You don’t have to say it’s an appointment with a tall, cold gin & tonic! But have something you need to do already planned when you make the call, and turn your phone off for the next hour or two at least.

    9. Laura H.*

      Whatever you decide, do email so that you leave documentation that you do resign and give notice and keep your copy too.

    10. hbc*

      Call. Before you do, rehearse how you’re going to say it, and plan also for what you’ll say to her likely pleadings. (Bonus if you can cite something that she unequivocally can’t offer, like “It’s not about [you/the pay/the bees], I just want a [shorter commute/larger company/new client base]” and keep coming back to that.). I’d also plan for a limit for how long you’ll listen to non-productive stuff, and have an exit line prepped. “I know this was a surprise, but it’s a done deal, and we need to start talking about plans. Can we talk exit strategy or do you want some time to think about it first?”

      I think it’s natural to dread this, but it’ll feel so, so good once it’s over.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      Right now I would prepare my resignation letter, then send it to my manager along with a appointment request for a phone call (phone not video). Have your last day set beforehand and that should be part of your letter.

      This way, they are not blindsided by a “I quit” call out of the blue, but scheduling the phone call at same time means you aren’t slinking away to avoid all discussion either.
      Normally, this would be an in-person meeting first, then email of official resignation letter, but I feel it needs to switch if you’ve been remote.

      1. LikeTheCity*

        Good idea on the switch. I think that’s the issue I’ve been having most, even though I am ready to leave I don’t really want to blindside someone with this phone call.

    12. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      Phone call. It may be unpleasant and uncomfortable, but it’s the closest you can get to an in person chat in current circumstances. Have your reasons ready and don’t allow her to make you feel guilty. You can’t control what she does, you can only control how you react to it. Good luck.

  10. Lygeia*

    What do you do when you aren’t hearing back from a reference that you really need? My options for a manager reference are really limited. Basically I have one good one. I’ve been under the same manager for five years, and at my last company, I had five managers in 2.5 years so I only really have one from there that can speak to my work since the rest only managed me for a few months. I had a good relationship with that one manager while I worked there and tried to keep in touch, but he is not responsive. He doesn’t really have an online presence so keeping up with him has been a failure. And now that I’ve reached out to ask if he’ll be a reference, I’m getting silence.

    So how do I explain that I don’t have a manager reference when the only reason is that the reference won’t get back to me?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If you’ve made a good faith effort to reach out to the manager, you’ve done what you can do. Since Alison’s said multiple times in the past that prospective employers can contact anyone (not just the references you list), it doesn’t seem wildly inappropriate to just list that manager as a reference (you tried to give a heads-up), and leave it up to the prospective employer to get a hold of that former manager.

      1. Lygeia*

        When I was young and inexperienced, I did that with a reference (my manager for an internship I did). I had emailed her, but she didn’t respond within a couple days and the employer wanted the references RIGHT AWAY. So I sent her info anyway. They contacted her, and she sent me a scathing email about how I shouldn’t have assumed. So this is a risk.

        1. Katrinka*

          Managers should always expect to be contacted about past employees, that’s pretty much a given in any industry. I would think a manager of an internship even more so, since it’s often the only professional experience a newish employee has had.

    2. WellRed*

      How have you reached out to him? And, if you can’t connect him with him, you don’t explain that to the prospective employer because it’s not an actual reference if they don’t agree to be a reference.

      1. Lygeia*

        I reached out on LinkedIn and email (with a follow up). I feel like any more would be pestering.

    3. Kimmybear*

      Is there someone that managed you for a few months on a big project or that you had good relationship with? Even a few months is better than nothing.

    4. Kitano*

      If you haven’t followed up on your first email yet, I would say that’s your first step. But I would also be reaching out to the other managers to see if they’d be able to provide a strong reference, as well. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than nothing. Alternatively, if they’re older and you think it wouldn’t hurt the relationship, you might consider calling their office to follow up. I know some older people just hate email and will be much more helpful over the phone.

      1. Lygeia*

        Yeah, I’ve reached out to a couple of other possibilities. It’s just frustrating because they won’t be strong references. They only managed me briefly. And one of them barely knew what I did anyway. I wish I had someone from my current job, but it’s a small company with a pretty flat structure. So even though I was promoted a couple years ago, I’m still reporting to the same person (the managing director). No one else has had any real supervision of my work.

      2. Cat Meowmy Admin*

        Hi :) Although I agree with the concept, I respectfully **strongly disagree** with your reference to “older people”. (As an “older people person” of 65 myself.) It’s really a matter of preference, regardless of age, whether someone prefers to communicate by email or phone.

  11. Orange Crushed*

    Any scripts or advice for dealing with lots of interpersonal drama and gossip in the workplace? This is an office where all they do is gossip and talk about others. I made a comment to a coworker (nothing bad or mean) and another coworker made a remark about it to me seconds later. Wtf? Yet, I must not be in the “cool group” because I never know what’s going on, which is okay, but I don’t want to be gossiped about either.

    Any advice?

    1. Lygeia*

      Don’t engage. When people try to gossip to you, change the subject to work. “Hmmm… Oh, did you get those updated numbers from Bob?” Over time, people will stop finding you a satisfying gossip partner.

      And definitely don’t add to the gossip. Even innocent comments can get out of control in this kind of environment.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Agreed. You can’t really do anything to “change” the environment, so the best thing to do is to disengage. That doesn’t mean don’t be friendly with people, of course! Just when someone is being gossipy, it’s OK to change the subject, etc. and not spread gossip yourself.

        Pro tip: if you work in a very talkative/gossipy environment and you NEVER talk about yourself at all, people will notice and it can get weird. Participating a little (in normal friendly conversation, not gossip!) will help with this. You don’t have to go through all the particulars of your life or anything, but volunteering the occasional detail about if you’re doing anything interesting this weekend, a good meal you had, participating in a conversation about a hobby you like, etc. Otherwise, in an environment where everyone else talks all the time, you run the risk of coming off as standoffish or secretive.

        1. Up Too Late*

          +10 You can say things without really revealing much about your life. I talk a lot about my dog, his visits to the vet, the cute thing he did. I tell a lot about him and almost nothing about myself.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Put your head down and get to work. Try not to get involved in the gossip or the drama.

    3. VictoriaQ*

      I think it’ll help for one to assume that any conversation with someone at work isn’t going to be private. This is really crappy, and your workplace sounds very dramatic, but if you can’t say something to a coworker without someone else commenting on it, that might be your reality here. Hopefully, not being in ‘the cool group’ means you’ll be on the sidelines for bigger drama.

      You can also try to be exceptionally bland and uninteresting when a coworker comments on something you said to someone else. Hopefully, by responding to things with “Mhmm” and “I’ll think about it” you become too boring for your coworkers to deal with. You might try looking at Captain Awkward for some scripts about this kind of thing.

    4. Third or Nothing!*

      I find it helpful to put some mental distance between myself and the toxic people. I do this by pretending I’m watching a play. It makes it a little easier to step back and think to myself “y’all are acting ridiculous right now” and keep it from feeling personal. This works so nicely when my coworkers start spouting nonsense about the current political climate.

      Also, assume nothing you say or do is private. Assume they gossip about you at least some of the time. You can have some control of the situation by putting them on an information diet and acting professional so that the only things they can talk about are clearly quite petty.

      Finally, understand that their opinion of you has no bearing whatsoever on your worth as an employee or as a person and that they are the ones being mean and it’s not your fault. They would be mean no matter what you do. Again, It. Is. Not. Your. Fault.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “but I don’t want to be gossiped about either.”

      I think you will find it really helpful to just let go of this idea. Think about it. This requires doing something such as duct taping people’s mouths. How do we prevent people from talking about us? The true answer is we don’t.
      Just accept the fact that people can and will talk about you.

      Another helpful bit is to think about the definition of the word gossip. What exactly do you think gossip looks like?

      “Bob became a grandpa yesterday!”
      “Mary has a new car and it’s very nice.”
      “Sue did a great job on her report.”
      Even though each one of these things is positive the speaker is still talking about other people which is large component of gossiping.
      OTOH, negative things can be said such as, “Jane lost her dad last night.” or “Jim had to have his dog put down.”
      It’s helpful to know all these types of life events even though it could be considered gossip.

      The interaction you show here doesn’t really give me a lot to go on but it sounds like a normal work group interaction, such as someone’s news is more up-to-date than the speaker’s news. This happens often enough. Or it could be that you were talking in a space where there were others so since the conversation could be heard, they felt they could chime in. This also happens often enough.

      “Yet, I must not be in the “cool group” because …”
      And here comes Negative Nancy, most of us have her relatives living inside our brains. On one hand, one could argue this is a carry over from high school. But I think it’s a more realistic idea to understand that we all want to be included and fit in to some degree. While the framing might be more toward high school groups, the overall idea is still valid.

      I am going to say this bluntly because at one point this was a hard lesson for me. You can have one or the other, you can avoid all gossip or you can fit in. Reality is that it is useful to know Jim’s dog died, or that Jane lost her dad. And it’s nice to share a moment of joy with new Grandpa or new car owner. But there are other topics that serve no purpose, such as berating people or analyzing every single gesture or word a person makes. This is where I get down in the weeds, I go instance by instance. What are people talking about in this particular conversation? Do I want to be a part of this particular conversation? If no, I make my excuses and move on.

      And worse yet, sometimes the gossip vine is correct. I was 3 days into a job and I was told the CEO was embezzling from the company. It was good information. And I should have acted on it by getting out, but I didn’t. It’s one of the stupider things I have done in life, I can tell you now. In an example like this, you can simply listen. If you feel you must say something you can go with, “I am sorry to hear that.” This does not throw gas on the fire. And in my example here, the fire was raging on by itself without my participation. You can listen to what is being said in order to try to gauge how long you can stay at this job and put up with this stuff if the stuff is over the top. You can’t really change your workplace, though. (Yes, CEO was eventually charged.)

      If you think of it as we work 40-50 years of our lives at least, it’s unavoidable to go that long and not hear any gossip. Interpersonal drama can be handled as it comes up, IF you are the target of the drama stories. If you are thinking about the drama and gossiping now, this will not improve over the years. This will only wear on you more and more. BTDT. I think the best thing you can do for yourself is to set a goal such as “I am going to stay here 2 years and then move on” OR, “I am going to save up enough money for a better car/whatever else and then move on”. To me this is the number one thing you can do to survive this environment. If we have a goal or goals, we can do a sprint. It’s the marathons that are a killer and the marathons with no goals in sight are the WORST. I hit 4 out of my 5 personal level goals at that job and finally left when I had set myself up to complete goal number 5.

  12. Treebeardette*

    Any 3rd or night shifters? I have a great opportunity with a big company. When I origi6 applied, they had a 1st and 2nd shift position. They backed filled it with internal candidates. I didn’t like working 3rd shift in my current work place due to supervisors doing questionable things.
    My biggest concern is how lonely I’ll be. I’ll be moving to a new area. I’m single so dating will be a plus for me.
    How do you make friends on night shift? Do you like working night shift? I’m ready to hear all pros and cons.

    1. Gamer Girl*

      I would say: really sit down and evaluate when you feel best during the day. Are you a night owl who already loves to stay up very late, feeling energized the later you’re awake? That’s my mom to a T, and she was even pregnant with me while working nights (11pm to 7am). I think that that’s what made me a night owl!

      She says she really enjoyed getting out of work and having free time in the morning after a long day–she said that it made her feel like she had a lot more time to “spend” after work than a traditional 9-5 because the sun was only just rising. She also really liked being able to schedule doctor’s appointments with very little trouble!

      Longer term, after I was born, it was really great for childcare, as my dad worked 7-3pm, would take over caring for me right away when he got home, while she would go to sleep and get a full 7 hours sleep. She’s a big advocate for one parent working nights (when it works) because it makes childcare much more equitable.

    2. Pontifex Xur*

      Here’s what I learned from being an overnight sysadmin for about a year:
      (Returned to days in March, right before my company started having everyone WFH)

      Pros: If you function well with minimal oversight, or don’t respond well to micromanaging, this will be the best gig you’ve ever had. If you like large blocks of uninterrupted time to hyperfocus on what you’re working on, this is your shift.
      Cons: If you need a lot of interaction with your team or like being able to interface with other departments, you may struggle. If everything is going smooth, you’ll need to be your own advocate for your successes, because the adage of “out of sight, out of mind” tends to ring true for management.

      Things to be aware of: Meal prep game needs to be on point, because takeout options can be super limited depending on what hours your shift encompasses. You’ll probably want blackout curtains for your bedroom.

      I had the best luck making friends with other night-shifters from my company, because making my schedule line up in with the rest of the world was actually really difficult. Overall, working overnights was great for my ability to get work done, and was great for my career, but if I’d stayed on it longer than a year I would have taken a huge hit to my mental health.

      1. JanetM*

        My personal experience is that full-dark curtains don’t really block as much light as one would think, and sleep mask works better. Your mileage may vary.

        1. No Tribble At All*

          If it’s a true, true blackout curtain, it’ll block light except at the gap between the window and the wall. I put stick-on velcro on the wall & the inside of the curtain so I could stick the curtain to the wall better and eliminate that gap. I also had a blackout curtain over my bedroom doorway so I could leave the door open for the cats to go in & out without having a crack of light shining on me. It is hard to find true blackout curtains, I will say. I got mine at Costco.

        2. Dina*

          I can’t sleep with a mask on, but I have blackout curtains. They work perfectly. My room is pitchblack. If yours didn’t block out ALL the light, you didn’t get the good ones.

    3. Sam*

      I worked a night shift (8:00 PM – 6:00 AM) for +2 years. I really enjoyed the lack of traffic and how quiet the office was. As someone who doesn’t buy their lunch, I didn’t really mind the limited food options available in the middle of the night.

      Dating was a challenge but I was usually able to arrange for dates on my off days. I wasn’t in a serious relationship at the time, however, and so I’m not sure what it would have been like to see someone regularly who likely worked standard hours.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      Oof, moving to a new area and doing night shift is tough. I did swing shifts for a few years (~ month of days, month of nights) and…. I didn’t really make any friends in the area at all. I socialized with my other night shift coworkers during work, but not during non-work days. I attempted to join a meetup group in the area, but (a) I didn’t really click with them and (b) I could only attend events about once every two months. My boyfriend lived with me about half the time. Honestly, night shift will be like social distancing– you usually won’t be able to see people in person. I tried to stay on night shift as much as possible on my days off, but not all of my coworkers did. I was 12 hours off everyone else around me, so if I got up early they could come see me at my place. If people wanted me to meet them after their work (7pm?) it would be the equivalent of getting up at 5am for me. I also had 12 hour shifts so I was *exhausted* after every night shift — it sounds like you might have 8 hours, which is less bad.

      My recommendations:
      – Get animal(s). I know not every landlord lets you have them, but it meant a lot to me to have fluffy little cats running up to greet me when I got home.
      – Have hobbies that don’t require people. I am a video game addict.
      – Have online friends in different time zones.
      – Get yer blackout curtains, and if you don’t have blackout curtains, tape aluminum foil over your windows. (You can do paper as a first layer with tinfoil on the inside so you look less like a conspiracy theorist from the outside).
      – Vitamin D supplements!
      – Avoid spending prolonged time in sunlight. It will reset your body’s internal clock and wreck you.
      – When selecting a place to live, look for proximity to both work and grocery stores / doctors etc. This is not the time to get that cabin in the woods an hour from town. So many of my coworkers had stories about drowsy driving.
      – In larger cities, there may be meetup groups for night shift workers!

      Benefits of night shift:
      – generally quieter than day shift. I could work on longer-term projects because I didn’t have to constantly respond to events.
      – shift differential? Usually 3rd shift gets a bonus for being 3rd shift?
      – some people aren’t affected by staying up late, and then night shift is mostly a scheduling inconvenience. I …. was not one of them.

    5. bossynurse*

      I’ve worked night shift for the majority of my 20+ year career, and it’s a good fit for me. Less management and drama around! Even when I was a manager, I liked to go in in the evenings or early mornings because the night shift crew is so chill. Our team is pretty tight and we can rely on each other. I never had to worry about being lonely. In the hospital setting, typically the 1st and 2nd shift positions get filled with internal candidates (usually by seniority) because the 3rd shifters have done their time and want to work days. Just because you take a 3rd shift position, doesn’t mean it’s forever.

    6. Katrinka*

      I would recommend that you find out how long you need to stay in that shift before applying to one of the others. And how often spots open up in the other two shifts. As others have said, you can set up dates or join groups on your days off. Or do video chats in the morning after you get off work. When my then-BF did shift work and I was working 9-5, I would go over on the weekend, read a book or something until he woke up, then we’d order in takeout, have dinner and watch a movie, then he’d go to work and I’d drive back to my place. Later in the relationship, I would stay there all weekend, his roommate and I got along well and would hang out or do work while BF slept.

  13. Cendol*

    So, my partner and I are eloping on Monday. How do I tell my team?

    I am intensely private and never talk about myself. At most, I think my colleagues know I have some number of cats, and I’ve brought up my partner in conversation with my boss before. I have the time we’re going to pick up the marriage license blocked out on my work calendar as, generically, “Appointment.” But we’re a small team and it’s going to be weird if I reappear in-office at some point in the future all, oh yes, I hastily eloped during the pandemic, nothing to see here. We have a virtual happy hour this evening…do I just…blurt it out?

    1. The Rural Juror*

      Nah, tell them the good news afterward. If anyone says, “Oh, why didn’t you tell us?!” Tell them you didn’t tell anyone, even close friends. Even if that isn’t true, it’s a white lie that could make coworkers feel better. Tell them it was exciting and less stressful for you guys to elope and you decided together it was for the best.

      Congratulations :)

    2. ducklet*

      You can tell people whenever you next see them “By the way, I have some good news: partner and I got/will be getting married on Monday!”

      Or you can wait for them to ask “how are you?” and you can say “good – I’m excited to say that partner and I are getting/got married on Monday.”

      I also was involved with a diversity committee at work that I spent a lot of time with but never really brought up wedding planning when I was going through it and none of them were invited so why would it come up? The Friday before my wedding I just mentioned it in response to “what are everyone’s weekend plans?” and I was like “getting married haha.” That got a lot of surprise but in a casual good way.

    3. sub rosa for this*

      Absolutely blurt it out at happy hour! People will be glad to have something to celebrate.

      And congratulations!

      1. NW Mossy*

        While it was a team meeting, this is what one of my colleagues did when she spur-of-the-moment married her long-term partner a few years back. We were all thrilled for her, and in many ways not surprised. Her work style is to act quickly once a decision is made, so why would she be different at home? : )

    4. Been There*

      I think, if you don’t make a big deal out of it, they won’t either. They’ll take their cues from you. So if you don’t want to tell them in advance, and just let it come out naturally when they see the ring (if you choose to wear one), then you can respond with “oh yeah, we eloped a few weeks ago” and gracefully change the subject.

      Alternately, if you do want to tell everyone, the virtual happy hour would be the best place for it. And if you’re excited about it and want them to share in your excitement, then blurting it out would be appropriate lol

    5. Txag18*

      It’s up to you if you want to tell your team. At your virtual happy hour you could say something like “Can I share some exciting news? I got married!” and then show off the ring (if you have one, and want to). You can treat the news as if it’s already happened and just say that you and your partner wanted to go ahead and get married, but didn’t do anything special because of the pandemic. I’m sure people will understand and be happy for you. Congratulations!

    6. Long Time Fed*

      Don’t overthink! I had a coworker who, on a Monday when we were talking about our weekends, blurted out that he got married. We didn’t even know he was dating!
      It’s ok to be a little mysterious.

    7. Tex*

      It’s up to you to tell them before or after. Just don’t delay too much (weeks or months later is weird). But the pandemic gives you the perfect out: we were planning a wedding, but threw the plans out the window, and it became a spur of the moment decision.

    8. The Original K.*

      I had a coworker casually mention that he got married during a random conversation; he, too, was very private so no one knew anything about him. It was very much an “oh by the way, I got married on Friday” kind of thing. We said congratulations, he thanked us, and then he changed the subject. He clearly didn’t want it to be A Thing, so we respected that. I think it’s fine to just drop it casually if that’s what you want to do.

    9. kt*

      Yep, agree with everyone else, and also, feel free to own the awkward if you feel like it’s awkward — like, you can literally say, “Oh, by the way, I’m now going to awkwardly announce I got married on Monday, haha!”

      It’s fine :)

    10. mreasy*

      Or feel free to not say anything unless someone notices a ring…it’s not weird to keep your private life to yourself.

    11. Moonbeam Malone*

      Honestly, whether or not it’s a “hasty elopement,” you don’t owe coworkers some big, formal marriage announcement! Mentioning it casually, whether before or after it happens, is totally fine and normal. Some people are really open about this kind of thing and some keep it quieter and more private – both are fine! Different strokes for different folks.

    12. Tuckerman*

      I did a city hall wedding and emailed my team to say I was taking a vacation day the following day (standard procedure when we’re going to be out of the office). I think it was something like, “Tuckerman, 8 hours vacation Thursday, getting married.”
      I got a lot of excited replies.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      I think you might be concerned because they will ask why they weren’t invited? I really doubt many will ask especially if you tell them as a group. You can preemptively cut off those questions by saying it was/it will be a very private ceremony and only a few relatives were/are invited.

      1. Cendol*

        Haha, not to make light of the ongoing awful situation, but I think the pandemic gives me an easy out here (that I used shamelessly and ruthlessly with my immediate family): I wouldn’t want anyone to risk their health traveling to a large gathering right now! No one is invited, except for our witnesses and officiant. :)

        I’m more worried this will lead them to question my commitment to the job. Maybe they’ll make tone-deaf comments about children or joke that I’ll quit too (I replaced someone who left after they got married). I suppose comments like that are easy enough to brush off (and disprove, with time). It just feels slightly icky because I present at work as a cishet woman–in a male-dominated space–but my partner and I are very queer. Not that I ever bring it up! It’s like a double whammy of dealing with vaguely sexist comments *and* being in the closet.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Now I am ticked on your behalf. There’s lots of stereotyping there that could go into legal waters.

          I am guessing that part of the problem is that you get along with these people and you would like to keep it that way.

          Maybe this is useful… or not. I have a good friend who really, uh, doesn’t keep up with modern trends. The problem comes in where I can’t listen to his stereotyping. And some of it is Not Good at ALL. Now this is good friend, so what to do. I landed on the sentence, “That’s. Not. Cool.” I say it in a lower voice, so he has to pause to hear me. He can’t keep talking and still hear me. And I say it in a manner that conveys, this line of conversation is OVER. NOW.
          Since I very seldom say this, he knows when it comes up I CAN and I WILL stand by what I am saying. I mean business.
          And there is something about the sentence, “That’s not cool”. I don’t know how to put it into words…. but it just seems like I can make my point and the conversation can continue on to the next topic.
          FWIW.

          1. BethDH*

            I like this because your tone and cadence leave no room for them to act like you’re not serious or it’s all a joke, but the phrasing takes away their ability to treat it like you’re overreacting.

    14. Cendol*

      Thank you, everyone, for the advice (and the well wishes)! The happy hour seems like the place to mention it, since I probably won’t be seeing my coworkers in person until 2021! I definitely don’t want to send an email!

      I’m sliiiightly concerned some of my colleagues will assume that I’m not serious about my work or that we’re imminently about to reproduce, but I hope/assume they will keep those thoughts to themselves! I’ll do my best to drop the news casually and then change the subject…

      2. allathian*

        Congratulations!
        Shotgun weddings aren’t really a thing anymore, unless you’re a part of a religion that’s still big on virgin brides, and it doesn’t sound like you are.
        If someone does say something stupid, like “you’re not pregnant, are you?” it will probably be less awkward if you can treat it as a joke, but if not, that’s OK too.
        My situation’s a bit different as I got pregnant before I got married. I just told my then-boss in my last 1:1 before going on maternity leave that I’ll be coming back with a new name, and that was that. In my country, more than 70 percent of firstborn children are born to unmarried mothers. The child automatically gets the mother’s last name, if she’s unmarried. If the parents are married and have the same surname, the child gets that name. If both parents have kept their own names, they can choose, and most choose to give the father’s name to the child. But most people who are married have the same last name, usually the husband’s, although it’s getting more and more common for the husband to take the wife’s name.

        At the time, I had a poor relationship with both my then-boss and my closest coworker, so they didn’t even congratulate me (well, they said the words but I could tell they were completely insincere). The only person who did congratulate me sincerely was the person who had been hired to do my job during my maternity/parental leave (I was planning on taking 18 months off, I ended up taking 26, so a temp was necessary).

    15. Katrinka*

      One of my direct reports took a day off and she and her long-term partner went and got married at the courthouse (pre-COVID). A few of us knew about it ahead of time, we let her decide how to tell people when she came back. Most of the time, people coming in would ask how she was and she would say, “pretty good, I got married yesterday.”

      Another direct report got married and we all knew all the details for the entire year she planned it. We knew most of us weren’t going to be invited (there are over 100 of us), but it was still fun, for the most part (she can obsess and agonize over decisions sometimes, so that was….difficult).

      1. Cendol*

        “Pretty good, I got married yesterday”–I think I’m going to steal that! With some temporal modifications, lol. Thank you!

      2. allathian*

        I admit I have a hard time understanding why people expect an invitation to a coworker’s wedding. If they’re also friends outside of work, that’s a different matter, but if they’re just coworkers, why?

    16. Jules the 3rd*

      I got married at the end of my first week of work because the boss let me take the afternoon off (they still didn’t have a computer for me). It was semi-impulsive, we’d decided we were going to get married just hadn’t decided on when.

      On Monday, my manager asked how my weekend was, and I said, ‘oh, it was fun! I got married on Friday, went to a party on Saturday, had fun surprising my friends about the marriage.’ My boss was startled for a minute, but I just treated it as ‘normal but mildly amusing’ and they went with it. I *think* I maybe got a comment a year later, so people remembered it, but it was never a big deal.

      1. Cendol*

        I love this story, especially the way you broke the news! I would have told my very excellent manager right away, but they were on vacation. I hope they will take it in stride like yours did!

    17. emmelemm*

      Trust me, nothing you do will be as weird as the time two of my coworkers came in on Monday and announced they had gotten married – and no one even knew they were dating.

        1. emmelemm*

          Better still – caveat, this was in the 90s – they had driven to Burning Man from WA state, gotten married in Vegas along the way, and driven back.

    18. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I probably wouldn’t mention it (although do you have to “disclose” it to HR for reasons about benefits and things like that?) until some time down the line and then act as if it was already known! Or just casually refer to “my husband / my wife” (as the case may be)!

    19. RestroomTimeExtraordinaire*

      Congratulations!! Well, if you aren’t normally open about your private life, and you aren’t going to start changing your professional name on Tuesday, this news doesn’t have any really urgency or awkwardness, except for how you feel! If you feel you are somehow hiding something, by all means, share. Let them raise you a toast at virtual happy hour!

      I ran off and got hitched myself, and I just told people “Partner and I married on Wednesday last week, neither of us had interest in planning a big event.” For you, it maybe an easy thing to blame the pandemic if people are so nosy to press for details!

      I’d encourage you to not characterize your happy event as ‘hastily eloped’ which connotes (to me at least) something not planned or considered in advance or *gasp* a shotgun wedding!

    20. Mid*

      My job is at a small workplace, so we just send out group emails with any good news, usually with a picture or two attached!

    21. Me*

      You don’t have to tell them. I know nothing about my coworkers personal lives except stuff they’ve mentioned. Donn;t want to mention it, then don’t. OR do if you want to . It’s no big deal either way.

    22. HBJ*

      An elopement, by definition, is getting married without telling anyone. A lot of people confuse an elopement with a “private wedding,” (an elopement is a private wedding but a private wedding is not always an elopement), but it’s perfectly normal to not tell people. I had a coworker who came into the office on Monday having gotten married over the weekend. We were just “oh, wow, congratulations!” I would think people would be especially understanding considering covid.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, this. When my husband and I got married, we had a private wedding, but we didn’t elope. We just invited our parents and siblings and my MIL’s then-fiance (they got married about a year later). My FIL’s wife was also invited but she declined the invitation, and my FIL didn’t attend the ceremony at the registry office, but he did come to our tiny reception, basically coffee and cake at our house. I was 8 months pregnant at the time and both of us loved the fact that we had the perfect excuse to avoid a big wedding, which neither of us wanted.

    23. valentine*

      You have a great opportunity here. At happy hour, if someone asks how you are? “Married.”

      1. Cendol*

        This is gold. Now I’m tempted to hold off until another meeting next week so I can use this. Lol!

  14. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    I am thinking of looking for another job once Covid has calmed down a bit but….I am fat, in my 50’s, and disabled. I know employers can’t legally pass me over for these things, but internalized bias is strong. Any suggestions? Success stories?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wish I had some advice. I do remember going through a “you can’t discriminate” training once, and they explicitly told us that even though it’s not good to discriminate against fat people, it’s not illegal to do so (!!!). Yikes. And, we all know that even though age discrimination and discrimination against disable folks are both illegal in many places, that discrimination still happens. I hope someone else has good advice…

    2. windowround*

      I am also fat and disabled, although in my 30’s. My disability is invisible though.

      I think it is important to present yourself well physically and act bright and confident. While someone may be fat you can do still do a lot with hair and make up and clothes to look professional and nice. I make sure I am well groomed and presentable. I speak brightly.

      These things shouldn’t matter but you’re right that they do sometimes. I have found though that in my field there is a shortage of qualified people with my skills so many employers are willing to overlook things about me. One thing you can do to overcome these issues is be a sought after hire.

    3. Kitano*

      I wish I had better advice as well, but I think Allison’s usual ‘you have no obligation to disclose demographic info that won’t affect your prospective employer/job’ advice applies. If your disability is something that would require accommodations from your employer, have a plan at the ready to discuss during interviews to show how you’ve gotten accommodations in the past and how it’s totally not been a problem for your workplace. Then steer the convo straight back to how kick-ass awesome you are as a worker.

      1. Anon Admin*

        I think past advice from Alison is not to say anything about disabilities or accommodations during the interview, wait until you have an offer. Of course if the disability is a visible one, then you need to be prepared to discuss it.

        1. Kitano*

          Yea, you’re right! I guess I was thinking more of ‘you don’t need to mention that you’re fat or in your fifties’ than the disability thing.

    4. Lena Carabina*

      Oof this is hard.
      Part of it is a positive attitude, so highlighting your assets as a worker, having confidence in yourself, telling yourself great things, good grooming, neat and tidy appearance with clothes that fit well (I wish this wasn’t the case, but…)
      Being thoroughly prepared for the interview. They’re impressed by your resume/CV enough to give you a chance in the first place!
      I don’t put that I’m disabled until I’ve got an offer.
      Most of the jobs I apply for use application forms and they have a section for date of birth, which I hate, so I can’t get around that, but if you’re not using a form then list your skills from the most pertinent jobs and don’t put dates on your qualifications.

      And then the rest is up to them. It’s hard, I acknowledge that.

      1. ampersand*

        Yeah, on the one hand, does anyone really want to work for an employer that would discriminate? On the other, sometimes you just need a job. This is hard, agreed.

    5. Txag18*

      Well with Covid going around, a lot of places that are hiring are doing phone or video interviews, so these things might not even be that apparent when you interview. When you do interview, I think you’ll be fine as long as you seem confident in your own experience/skills and dress nicely. I’d say that a place that would pass over people for their weight, age, or disability isn’t a place you’d want to work for in the first place. Good luck!!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I will be 60 this year. My setting is such that I probably have to work the rest of my life. I’d like to encourage you to watch people’s faces. Some people see my middle aged face and my white-ish hair and there is a look of relief on their face. Look for these people with relief on their face, they do exist. Typically, these are folks with a difficult mess in their work place and they need someone who is not afraid of the staggering mess and who will just forge ahead anyway. You can tell when you might be talking to one of these people because they sound tired or beat up by it all.

      From your side of the story, listen to their background. You want to know that they do actually have the skills for THEIR job and they do have the wisdom to remain ethical. Listen closely and you might get a feel for these answers. You might even get a sense that teaming up with them will not only go well on your end, but your efforts will actually benefit them. Remember interviews are a two way street.

      For me, the age stuff started at 46. I started hearing the remarks. It’s ironic you know, when I was 20 I thought the “oldsters” ruled the world. Now that I am in my late 50’s I get the message that “youngsters rule the world”. It is not possible for BOTH messages to be correct. Not possible.

      I think when we go on generalities it does not help us to handle our specific setting. Yes, age bias exists that is true… definitely true. But when applying for a job at Teapots R Us, there is no real good way of knowing if age bias is a problem at Teapots R Us. Alison’s advice is the best for so many people where she says, “Apply, then just forget it. Go find the next job to apply for. You do not have a job until you actually HAVE the job.’

    8. Pamela Adams*

      I work for the state in education,- I was fat and almost 40 when first hired, and am still fat, but added the ‘in my 50’s and disabled’ pieces. Government organizations are generally required to look for/support diverse candidates.

    9. Anononon*

      My mom found a new job at 60 after a lay-off. She’s fat, though not disabled. Since starting, she’s been somewhat of a superstar there.

    10. Alianora*

      Just wanted to share a success story. I don’t know whether my coworkers are disabled or not, but a few are overweight and over 50, and they’re all well liked and respected at the office. This includes our director, who was hired after I started. Nobody mentioned it during the hiring process. I can’t say for sure that no one had any bias against her because of it, but I think most of us were much more focused on her qualifications and personality.

    11. Glitsy Gus*

      Yeah, I get the concern you have. I’m over 40, overweight and trying to find a new job since I’ve been back burner-ed hard core at my current job. So, this means while I do have increasing responsibilities to show year-to-year, I only have one title upgrade.

      What the others have said is a good start. It’s really unfortunate, but making sure you are well groomed is a big one. For my LinkedIn I made sure to use a photo with my hair straightened (I’m white, but I have big, curly hair that has been referred to as “unprofessional” in the past), and I also straighten it for interviews. I invested in a blazer that I had tailored so I know it fits great and have my go-to blouse and pants that I feel most confident in. Just so you know, minor tailoring adjustments are often cheaper than you think and really do make clothes not just look better, but feel and move better.

      As Allison has often recommended, don’t mention accommodations (unless you need them for the interview as well) until after you get an offer and put it forth in an, “of course this is reasonable and won’t be a problem” attitude. If you do need them for the interview that breezy, “I’m going to just figure we are all on the same page that this is fine, because it totally is” voice does go a long way to making it not a big deal, even if in your head you are freaking out. I have a cousin with RA and this is her way of handling things when she needs to ask for things to assist her and 99% of the time it works a treat.

      It really does suck that you need to think about these things but it’s the reality. I wish you the absolute best of luck in your search.

  15. Frustrated Anon*

    How do you deal with feelings of bitterness in the workplace? I’m trying to find a new job and get out of my current toxic workplace. If you’re a hard worker, you’re looked down upon. It’s mostly a place to socialize and do the bare minimum to get by. I can’t do that. I’m good at my job and they admit that, yet I get made fun of by others. I do socialize and make some small talk, but I can’t sit there and chat all day because otherwise my work wouldn’t get done.

    One on one they’re nice, but when it’s 3 or more people, they make fun of you and bully others. I can’t understand this for the life of me. This is happening in my current and it happened in previous workplaces. Why does this happen?

    Am I being naive? Are all places like this? How do you avoid places like this?

    1. Lena Carabina*

      I had to do a few things really because ultimately it wasn’t good for me to be so negative, for my beauty and my state of mind and for the people I worked with either (even though they contributed to the toxicity).
      So just went in and did a good job, stopped bitching about the atmosphere to friends after work because that perpetuated the negativity, looked very hard for another job, took my breaks away from the awful atmosphere, and got personal counselling for a few weeks through my EPA.
      Wishing you the best.

      1. Lena Carabina*

        Lol “for my health”, not for my beauty.
        I wasn’t bothered by how it affected my looks :D

        2. Cat Meowmy Admin*

          I thought it was interesting too! :) For the beauty of your heart and soul and mind!

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          how interesting that I didn’t even notice that my eyes filled it in as ‘beauty sleep’ which my mom used to mean she did or didn’t get a good night’s sleep.

    2. Liz Lemon*

      Have you been at this job long? I ask because I had an almost identical experience when I first started working. I was the sole introvert in a small, “we’re like family!” company and my personality clashed badly with most of the others in my department. I made small talk sometimes and was as kind and friendly as I could be, but it’s a job and I came here to work and learn, not make friends. This went on for about two years before, well, everyone just got used to me and things sort of died down. I started dishing out what I got and I made it clear that the constant bullying about not wanting to chat or socialize the entire work day was not going to fly with me. What also helped was the instigator of it all being fired for unrelated reasons.

      I find that places that advertise themselves as “close-knit” or “like family” tend to resort to bullying-style social interactions, until they decide you’ve been there long enough to fit in. I’m sorry this is happening to you and I know it’s frustrating, just know that it ISN’T your fault. It seems like a clash of personalities to me.

    3. Centralperk*

      All places are definitely not like this. I was in a toxic work environment before I moved to my current job. Many employees were undervalued for their expertise and underpaid which lead to a huge exodus because of it. I knew I wasn’t willing to stay in a toxic environment so I began applying to other jobs. One of the things I kept in mind was that I wasn’t desperate to find a job. This allowed me to be careful in what I applied for and I could be choosy.

      Here is what I did: I started my research with Indeed, Glassdoor, etc. to understand the culture of a company. If there were consistently bad reviews, I would skip applying there. If there are more positive reviews than negative, I would give it a shot. Also, as Alison has shared in her advice, a job interview is just as much you deciding if a job is a good fit as it is they are deciding if you are the right candidate. I asked questions during the interview about the culture, employee moral, etc. My current boss spoke so highly of the company and how much they do for their employees that I knew it was the kind of company I wanted to work for.

      I’m really happy that I made a change, and that I was thoughtful about it. You don’t want to rush trying to leave a toxic environment only to land in another. Best of luck to you in your search!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      There are companies that enjoy failure and success is frowned upon. They can have a culture of martyrdom, also. “Oh we work so hard and no one appreciates. The big wigs make big bucks and we make nothing. blah, blah, blah.” But this is the tip of the iceberg there is lots more running besides what I mention here.

      In my place it happened because of corruption at the top. Since there was outside funding coming in it did not matter if people did their jobs well or not. The money flowed anyway. [Not all funded workplaces and not all the time, of course. But this can be one cue.]

      One of the ways, you can deal with this is to constantly remind yourself that when you leave you will take your skill set with you. I got very used to organizing my work in the most efficient manner. I really learned how to streamline at the old job because people … uh… worked when they felt like it. So I met my new boss and she thinks I am a power worker. No, I am just good at organizing my work flow so I don’t waste time. What you take for granted about yourself here, will impress your next boss. Trust me on this one.

      You are not naive. They are. If you want to see a bunch of people with a work ethic like yours, keep reading here. You will see it over and over again. Matter of fact, reading here might be a therapeutic thing to help you sort through the BS you have been through.
      So for bitterness, remind yourself that you will take your skills with you to your next job and the new boss will be impressed. Additionally read AAM daily to help balance out the laziness culture you see daily and to affirm your work ethic.

      As far as avoiding places like this, I would suggest looking at the common threads you see in the jobs you have had that were like this. You only need a couple common threads, so don’t strain too hard here. As you apply for jobs look for places that strongly seem not to have those characteristics.

      When I was 20 my answer to this was to seek job where people of a variety of ages were hired and worked there. Yes, older people can be just as lazy as younger people, that is true. Remember I was 20 when I started this idea and I had to start somewhere. This did seem to help a tiny bit.
      Then I moved to my next common thread, I kept picking small businesses. So I decided to move to a little bit larger type of business and I still retained the previous idea about diversity of ages. So maybe this was a tiny bit better still.
      But I kept going and making tweaks each time I changed jobs. I tried to find something that was different in some way from the previous jobs. And I kept the tweaks that I had made previously.

      Never underestimate the power of goals. Some folks are work to live people and some folks are live to work people. You will see this over and over. Personally, I am some where in that vast middle range. The most helpful thing I can suggest is setting goals for yourself and this can be personal goals and/or work goals.
      Goals can help you move past upsets like these and goals can help you ignore the fact that others don’t work and belittle you for it. Set goals and keep working on your goals.

    5. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      All places are not definitely not like this, though I’ve worked at some that are similar to what you’ve described.

      I’ve had feelings of bitterness at work lately for different reasons. I finally got to meet with my supervisor and discuss them… the message I received was that things were not going to change. It wasn’t what I wanted to hear, but it was an answer.

      Similar to what Lena Carabina said, I cannot keep bringing these negative feelings home or carrying them through the workday– it’s horrible for my overall well being and I realize I’m quickly using up the social capital I’d built up with my coworkers. So, I’m making the decision to drop them and focus on finding a new job, trying not to get so caught up with workplace efficiency and such, and take my lunch breaks to leave the building and do something nice for myself. I also need to stop wasting breath on this stuff when I’m outside of work. One day at a time!

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I can attest that not all companies are like this, in fact I’m currently the “talkative” one among primarily “keep your head down” types (yes, I’m aware of the impact of that and do actively work to restrain myself!) … Companies I’ve worked at in the past – a bit of a mixed bag.

      I’ve found that it is often departments or other “sub-sections” of a company that develop a culture like this, not necessarily the company as a whole. In one company I worked (many years ago now) the team I was part of had constant tight deadlines, changes in requirements etc and often there was a lot of communication needed, but the “getting work done” rather than “socialising and wasting time” type.
      However, our team was located physically next to a “socialising and wasting time” type of team, which was as good for morale as you would expect!

      I guess in your place if you’re a hard worker, you get looked down on for ‘brown nosing’ or ‘making the rest of us look bad’ or such like? Is it grade school!?

      Why does it happen, simple answer ‘because culture is contagious’ and evidently these people are able to get away with doing the bare minimum so why would they put in the effort to do more (their thinking goes) and then this rubs off on other people.

    7. Not today, Satin*

      Why does this happen? Weak management.
      Culture is a top down flow.
      If hard work is not recognized and rewarded, then it becomes denigrated and mocked.

  16. Notinstafamous*

    I’ve decided it’s time to change jobs. It’s mutual – my employer suggested I start looking for a new role in the next year and I’d already been thinking about it – but how do you stay engaged and on the ball at work when you’re already struggling with the pandemic and several other personal crises (deaths in the family, childcare, a chronic health condition). My job requires a lot of attention to detail and intense focus and I am finding it hard. I can’t quit until I have a new job lined up, but I do actually have to do my job in the interim. Any tips?

    1. Katrinka*

      Wait, wha…..? Your employer suggested you look for a new position in the new year? I’ve never heard of that. Are they going to fire you if you don’t find something else? Are they saying they don’t think you’re a good fit for this particular job or their company?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yeah, the way it’s written makes it sound like the employer is telling OP to find a new job or be let go, which is actually very gracious of them considering most places will just fire you and move on. They’re even giving OP ample lead time to begin a job search if that reading is correct.

        No tips for your focus issue, OP, but good luck in finding something new.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Grief can take way attention to detail- you have lots of griefs here- pandemic, deaths, health and now job situation.
      Stress can pull extra nutrition out of the body and once those nutrients start sliding so does attention span.
      You have many sources of stress here, you probably have times where you cry and can’t stop. Or you might have times where you stare at a wall and don’t do much else. In other words, you have a pressure cooker going on here.

      You might think I have flipped my lid because “I don’t have time for your suggestion!!!”. But my suggestion is to ramp up your own self-care. You can’t keep giving and giving without putting something into you. Self-care can be whatever you want, maybe it’s a grief group, maybe it’s life coaching, maybe it’s whole foods with lots of veggies and fruits. Self-care is whatever you think is going to give you the biggest boost for the amount of time and energy you put into the self-care activity.

      Additionally, look around for help. You can pay it back or forward later, so don’t be thinking about “needing help equals something bad about me/my life”. Maybe you have someone in your circle who can take your child for 1 hour a week so you can just rest or stare at that wall or job hunt or whatever. Maybe you can carpool if you drive to work. It’s amazing how having someone else drive even every other day can be a huge change. Or they drive you on Fridays when you are the most tired. Or maybe what you really want is a different doc, you can ask trusted friends for referrals. I don’t know the particulars of your setting so I am just making wild guesses as to what help could look like for you.
      Pull other people into the mix as you can, don’t try to do this alone. Sometimes life can really suck. But I can vouch for the fact that it can get better also.

    3. Kate H*

      – Be kind to yourself when things slip. Any one of those crises would affect your focus. All of them at once isn’t a fair situation to expect you to deliver at 110%. When you make a mistake, own up to it, fix it, but don’t be hard on yourself.

      – Can you listen to music or white noise while you work? It does wonders for me shutting my brain off so I can focus. Quiet music, instrumental music, lo-fi, white noise, rain/thunderstorms, wave sounds, anything that might occupy your mind so it doesn’t wander.

      – I’ve been having trouble staying on task and organized lately, and I’ve found it helpful to keep an extensive running list of every project, every outstanding email that I might need to follow-up on. Then, at the beginning of every day, I take that list and I make a shorter list of everything that I need to accomplish that day. I take a deep breath and work through the list one task at a time. Sometimes I get through all of it and move on to lower priority projects. Sometimes I have to readjust after lunch, to focus on top priority items and push others back to another day.

  17. Postdoc*

    I think you are over thinking this. I would list it all as “graduate student” and then explain the career change in the cover letter. Leaving before getting the PhD because you decided you didn’t want the career a PhD would be helpful for is a win. I have many friends who wish they had left sooner instead of getting a degree that they ultimately didn’t use.

      1. Anonymous Non-Anthropologist*

        Thanks Postdoc! I’m confident I can tell my story in a cover letter. I do consider it a win and I’ve been really happy with the decision – it was really hard to realize that while I loved the coursework and the writing and presenting, I am not cut out for doing extended solo projects with no end date and no real guidance, for a job that probably would never materialize. I do so much better collaborating on projects that are max a year long, with clear goals and a lot of moving parts to keep me interested.

  18. A Nony Moose*

    I’d like ya’ll’s feedback on something that’s been rolling around in my head.

    My boss has recently gone through either divorce or separation from her spouse…who also works here. He’s changed his nameplate and and e-mail tags so this isn’t idle office gossip. He’s a jerk, and I think my boss will be happier without him, even though I know this kind of thing is tough.

    If the spouse weren’t here, I honestly wouldn’t have picked up on anything based on how my boss has handled things. Looking back, there were times where she (understandably) seemed a little off, but overall she’s handled the whole thing very well, unlike her ex who has spread gossip and drama related to their personal matters.

    My question is whether I can/should say something supportive to my boss. I like and respect her and we have a friendly relationship. I’m torn, because the decent human in me feels like I should say something, but the avid AAM reader in me says to just continue on as normal.

    1. Postdoc*

      Don’t say anything. She obviously wants to keep her divorce separate from her work life. Follow her lead.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I feel like this is safe to say in regards to pretty much anybody, but especially your boss — don’t bring up someone else’s personal life issues if they don’t bring it up first.

      1. A Nony Moose*

        Yeah, that’s the path I’ve been heading down in my brain. It’s just nice to have confirmation from others sometimes.

    4. Txag18*

      I wouldn’t bring it up specifically, but next time you talk to her you could go with something along the lines of “I know things are stressful right now. Please let me know if there’s anything I can take off your plate.”

      1. Amy Sly*

        I might soften “I know things are stressful right now” to “I imagine things are stressful right now,” but otherwise, perfect. After all, it’s entirely possible that the divorce has been no more stressful or even a huge stress relief for her.

        But yeah, she obviously isn’t interested in using you as a confidant, so offer to provide the help you can and leave it at that.

    5. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      You’re a thoughtful person. :) I would refrain from saying anything, other than a general “Hey there! Please let me know if there’s anything (special) that I can help you with (today).” Depending on her response, you could then add “I’m here for ya” if it seems appropriate in the moment. You may be just what she needs as far as some normalcy during this time, while being discreetly supportive. She will understand and appreciate it.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      My suggestion is now is a good time to tell her that you appreciate her as a boss and you enjoy working with her.

      Never underestimate the power of a simple statement.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I kike it better than assuming a name change means a divorce. I’ve known women to change their names back simply because they couldn’t get used it it. One did it because a family elder was sad that the family name was dying out, but in that case her husband did it too. (He had brothers.)

    7. Venus*

      I like to tell people, especially managers, when they are doing a good job in the hope that they will continue. I like the initial wording of “I imagine things are stressful right now” yet I would finish the sentence with “so I wanted to remind you that I think you’re a strong and competent manager who supports your employees, and we appreciate it.”

  19. How long do you wait for a raise or promotion?*

    This week’s letter about the social media grad school acceptance got me wondering, how long do you wait when your boss or up has said they are working on a promotion or raise for you?

    My spouse’s boss’s boss’s boss (John) told him John is working on getting spouse a promotion and pay increase. This was 4 weeks ago. Nothing has changed and nothing has been mentioned since. Yes, this is during a pandemic and he works for government (not health related) so things are steady. Everyone is working from home.

    Would you bring it up and ask for status?
    How soon or long do you wait to ask?
    Do you ask someone under the John? Like your immediate supervisor?

    Thanks

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      In the industries I’ve been in, four weeks is nothing. “We’re working on a promotion” is a multi-month odyssey.

  20. a bored designer*

    I want to ask about professional development ideas. I am an instructional designer who has also worked in communications. I have a couple of certifications from td.org. I am interested in moving into management, plus also learning more about topics somewhat related to my role (such as IO psych or org development or program evaluation or even general business topics for managers).

    I am fortunate enough to have my job be fully remote during this time with no change in pay. However, my apartment is small, I don’t get out much, and my side hobbies are just not stimulating enough. I’m going bananas. I think if I could find something structured as far as professional development, it could help a lot.

    Any ideas? My work has restricted budgets due to coronavirus, so I’m sure any of this I do I’ll have to on my own time and on my own budget. I’m willing to pay for something mildly expensive. I was looking into actually going back to school, but that’s a bit too high of a cost for me right now. A certificate or course over several months would be more in my range.

    I saw some things like Lean Six Sigma certifications or the Project Management Institute. I have used LinkedIn Learning in the past. I’m open to book ideas, too. Anything, really!

    3. Options*

      I am also an ID and completed a certificate program though the University of Wisconsin Stout (in the U.S). I was happy with the quality and really enjoyed the instructors (all were people working in the field). They have expanded their certificate programs over the years and I see that have Six Sigma and Org Development. I thought cost was reasonable (I paid on my own). I know there were people in my program from Toronto and Trinidad, so if you are not in the U.S. it could still be an option. I recommend it to people a lot. It was shorter than a graduate degree but the credits can transfer if you want to. I have a Master’s already so I found the Certificate was positive when looking for new roles with out investing in another Master’s program.

      1. Lyudie*

        Seconding looking into universities. I’m currently in a master’s program at NCSU (also an ID! hi!) that is 100% online. There are also graduate certificates as Options mentioned, that will be a little faster and cheaper than a full master’s program. NCSU has a couple of related master’s programs and certificates, and I believe all of it is online.

        1. a bored designer*

          Thanks for these ideas! I had been looking at universities for another Master’s, but it felt like a big commitment right now. I was also a bit overwhelmed with how many online programs exist. I’m in the U.S. so I’ll check out those schools!

          1. Lyudie*

            You can take classes as a non-degree student if you are not sure you want to commit to a certificate or master’s program. Just be aware that at least at NCSU, the “timer” on completing the program starts with the first class, not when you get into the program. You have six years but you might need all of that if you’re working full time like I am…I missed a couple of semesters and am doing summer sessions now to make up time.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I’m currently enrolled at eCornell for a graduate certificate in marketing. But they also have data science, technology, leadership, project management, Human Resources, business, and many others.
      It’s kind of expensive, but there are 30% off discounts from time to time.

      So far I like it. Fast moving. Not as intense or as deep as dive as my masters, but you do have to complete and turn in the work.

    5. Calliope*

      Hey! I’m a Wisconsin-Stout ID certificate alum too!

      I know some learning organizations are looking for Project Managers with ID experience because they have a better understanding of the industry than just straight PMs. So a PMP certification (Northwestern has a good one) might be a route to go if you want to get into that area.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Agile development is another big one, especially for anyone potentially managing in a software-adjacent field.
      Don’t rule out community colleges, if nothing else the tuition can be much lower.

  21. Remote HealthWorker*

    I ran into an new issue! One of the companies I am applying to wants a signed release from my boss to interview me.

    My current employer uses their product. The release basically says “you won’t disrupt our business relationship if we interview and potentially hire RHW.”

    I get why they want it BUT I think they are asking for it way too early. If they wanted to give me an offer contingent on the release being signed… fine. Still not happy… but fine. However they want it before they will even interview me? They want me to divulge my search, potentially be put on the top of the layoff pile… all before an in person interview?

    Any thoughts for how to pushback? I’d rather not work with the HR person who screened me but speak to someone in leadership to suggest the letter be required at the point of an offer and not before.

    1. The Rural Juror*

      Hopefully you can speak to the hiring manager about this, not the HR person if they’re being pushy. Do you feel you could say, “My current company does not know that I’m interviewing and I’d like to keep it that way for now. In this current climate, it’s going to put me in a very awkward position if it’s revealed at this point.” It’s possible the hiring manager doesn’t know this is going out to potential interviewees.

      It seems like a really strange order to conduct the screening process. Sounds like this HR person is a little out of touch with reality. I would pay attention in the interview to any feelings that this an organizational thing or it’s just one person not thinking things through. Good luck!

    2. Llellayena*

      “I understand why you would need this if you want to offer me a position, but my search is currently confidential so I would prefer to wait until the end of the process.” And the HR person would probably be ok to send this to, but you can add that you would like to discuss this with the hiring manager if it’s going to be an issue.

    3. whistle*

      “I am not able to notify my current boss that I am interviewing for new positions, as this would put me in a very awkward position if I am not selected for a role with your company. I would respectfully request the ability to interview prior to getting the release signed, and I of course understand that this would need to be signed prior to beginning employment with you. I hope we can continue with our interview as I am very much looking forward to it.”

    4. Lifelong student*

      What if your current manager won’t sign? Several people below have indicated that it would be okay if after interview and offer to request that consent from your current manager- but that begs the question. If current manager doesn’t agree- will they pull the offer?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Why wouldn’t the current manager sign once an offer has been made? Unless OP’s manager is extremely petty, I would think they would just sign the release and be done with it.

      2. Yada Yada III*

        This is my question, too. I get that the company she wants to interview with doesn’t want to upset a client company … but I can’t say I’d be willing to let the decision to hire me hinge on whether my current boss is willing. There are just too many reasons why the boss might not “give permission,” and that decision could easily have nothing to do with the OPs current performance and value, or her potential value to a new employer. (I would consider this a red flag for the hiring company. Something is off-kilter in how they value employee and/or client relationships … or there is something very odd about their relationship specifically with the OP’s current employer. None of this feels right to me.)

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      Part of their contract with your current employer most likely includes language that they are not permitted to recruit employees away. Let them know that you do not have a non-compete agreement (assuming you don’t) and that if and when you get to the offer stage you are happy to provide them with a signed letter from your employer. And HR is the appropriate group to have this conversation with as they are most likely the ones requiring it, not the hiring manager.

  22. A*

    Without getting into a political discussion if possible, how worried is everyone about the school situation? I’m job searching and I don’t know how I would be able to fully dive into a new full time job if I’m still juggling 2 students at home, with the possibility that they might need to be shuttled to/from school for 4 hour stints, on every other day or week. I worry this is going to put parents at a disadvantage in the coming months for job opportunities. Any advice on how to broach this with potential employers during an interview? Frankly, I am not going to want to work for a company that won’t show some understanding, but there’s understanding and then there is the reality of what the job needs to produce. Ugh, what a perfect storm.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Any advice on how to broach this with potential employers during an interview?

      Maybe ask how they’ve been handling Covid-19, and what they’ve done to make things work for both the company and the employees? See what they lead with (important to note), but also have follow-up questions.

    2. Aeryn Sun*

      I totally feel you on this. I’m currently furloughed and looking for jobs and the reality is no one knows what the schools are doing. One strategy might be to ask in the interviews how they have handled Covid, to get a sense of how flexible they have been with people because that might give you a sense of how they will handle it going forward.

    3. Nita*

      How worried? I’m weighing whether I should just quit come September, or try to stick it out in case my husband gets laid off in October (his employer has announeced big layoffs coming). And that’s not even my biggest worry. My biggest worry is the thousands of other parents in NYC who will also lose their jobs because no one can work while their kid is maybe possibly in school two days a week, and we won’t even commit to two days or tell you which days. What are they going to do – beg in the streets? Lock their kids alone in the house, go to work, and hope they’ll be OK? I envy the ones who can run for the exits… they say schools elsewhere in the tri-state area will try to open on a regular schedule.

    4. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      The only thing I can offer is total compassion- for parents, students, teachers, etc. Hubz and I don’t even have children of our own, but we do have grandnieces and grandnephews, and we totally feel for you all! Internet Hugs to you and yours!

    5. Anonymost*

      I’m pretty worried about it. My kids didn’t do well with virtual school, especially my kid who has ADHD and other learning difficulties. I am worried about how they do if they have to do another long stretch remote. I also hate having to juggle working and having them home. They’re pretty self sufficient but still need some direction and I hate being the parent who’s constantly telling them to go away because I’m on a call. I’m not planning to job search in the near future, but I can definitely see where it would be an issue. I feel like there’s no good solutions here. It’s tough all around.

      1. Anonymost*

        I think I should also say, I’m luckier than many, many people because my office will have us working remote for the foreseeable future and has been very supportive throughout the crisis, so I don’t have to worry about scrambling for childcare or making the choice between work and my kids.

    6. Katrinka*

      Can you reach out to other parents in your neighborhood or at the school and see if some sort of sharing plan can be worked out where you take turns taking all the kids in your group (or pay one parent to do it every day if they offer)? Depending on where you’re looking, I suspect all the working parents will be (and are) in the same boat – no one knows what’s going to happen and employers can’t make definite plans for their employees who are parents until they know what the schools are doing.

      1. Nita*

        That’s a great idea, but it may not work well in practice. I tried it once, and was it ever a disaster. I was on maternity leave and offered to help a fellow working mom by picking up her child after school and having our kids to homework together. They were in the same class, so same assignments and schedules. You’d think it would be a breeze. It turned out that our kids have completely different learning styles, and by the second day I was pulling my hair out in frustration. We’d get maybe 50% of the homework done, and even that with much sweat and tears. That’s why teachers have to take classes in how to educate…

    7. Teacher’s Wife*

      I am the wife of a teacher and the mother of a teacher and a substitute teacher (teaching while completing a Masters). We are worried about the upcoming school year, especially since our state is a Covid hotspot. Since my husband is over 60, we are considering having him retire. I am immune-compromised and am concerned that I could get sick. My daughter-in-law is planning on home schooling our grandkids at this point. My older son has been teaching remotely and is scheduled to continue in the fall. We are worried about our younger son going back to subbing. We would probably stay in our family bubble until things get better, whenever that is.

    8. Epsilon Delta*

      It is going to be a sh** show. Our district was radio silent in March, then sent out an email to half the parents at 3pm on the Friday March 13 saying that spring break was starting two weeks early. And although the teachers did the best they could remote, very little learning was done/retained.

      So I fully expect to find out the day before they’re supposed to start school this fall, whether they will be in school or virtual again.

      There is a school in our area that’s designed to be 100% online. We are looking into enrolling our daughter there, because it might help with the quality of the teaching, but honestly it’s still terrible because then I’m back to working at home and making sure she is learning and not just watching Youtube, and she is not socializing with her friends.

      It’s infuriating that businesses are opening up, bars and theme parks are even opening up ffs, but we can’t have schools.

  23. Two Bosses*

    Is it possible to have two managers from different departments? So far I know it is common to have a manager and another manager who is also the boss of your other manager.

    If my two managers have a different opinion on how to do a project/process/etc. and they are adamant that I do it their way even though I pointed out that the other manager have a different opinion, what should I do?

    I could tell them I am not comfortable proceeding, but both of them might not like that. How do I announce to them that we need to figure out what to do? Do I send both of them an email, reiterating their different opinions and saying once more how we should move forward?

    What is the best approach? Will there be differences of approaches depending if my bosses are from different departments? Are managers with one also being the manager of the other?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve had that happen, and it wasn’t great. They both wanted me to work on whatever department they were in and spend less time working in the department they weren’t in.

      But are you saying your actual manager has different opinions from your manager’s manager (who isn’t actually your manager)?

      Or are you saying you actually have two separate managers that you directly report to, and those two managers are in different departments?

      1. Two Bosses*

        Usually I hear people can work under two managers, with one of being also the manager of your manager.

        I wanted to get advice on both two managers within same dept and two managers within different depts.

    2. 7310*

      In similar situation but had enough capital to spend: called a meeting with both, asked them to work out how they wanted me to proceed and give me written instructions. Worked out pretty well since both were reasonable people and did not realize what the other was doing. YMMV

    3. Buttons*

      That is an awful situation to be in. I would do what you said- compile an email with the direction from each of them, and if you have the experiene and empowerment to do so I would then lay out the approach you recommend. Ask them to please confirm that this is acceptable with both of them. If it is not, then would ask them to please come to a consense and let you know.
      Documentation like this is a CYA. If at review time one of them says that you don’t follow their direction then you have documentation that you were getting conflicting direction and asked for clarification and approvals. CYA CYA CYA!

    4. NW Mossy*

      Possible, yes. Desirable, no.

      The only way this works is if both your bosses put explicit, intentional effort into getting on the same page with each other and maintaining that over time. Ideally, this would be written down somewhere and there’s a regular check-in on calendar to review/tweak it. It would clearly define expectations on how much time you’re to spend on different areas at minimum, with a floating amount that can move between the two as needed.

      If the two bosses in your scenario both report to different people themselves, that’s a warning sign that this is likely to be unstable long-term. Someone ultimately needs to be able to knock your two bosses’ heads together if needed, and that’s hard to do if their management isn’t shared.

    5. Remote HealthWorker*

      I had two manager in two departments. It sucked. Basically you were always pissing someone off. Whole I was knocking out work for Mgr A, B was complaining, calling me I to berate my slow progress, etc. The reverse happened when I would switch to Bs work. Performance reviews were a bizarre back and forth where they would each day how terrible you were, but would highlight what the other person just said was good as a negative. It sucked. If you have a good relationship with their boss, I recommend going to them for advice and showing the emails with differing opinions. If your skip level is with their salt they will fix the reporting structure.

    6. The Green Lawintern*

      I was in a similar situation until very recently (one supervisor just left) – we’re all technically in the same department, but each supervisor had a different area of expertise which some overlap in process. I pretty much didn’t have any issues because one of my supervisors was very laid back and generally deferred to the other supervisor but if a conflict had ever arisen, I would have taken it to our grandboss to resolve since he has final say on everything.

    7. cmcinnyc*

      I did that when I started at my company. My time was split between the two and I would literally get up from one desk in one department and run downstairs to another desk in another department. It was not ideal. After a few months of that, the higher ranking manager got full custody of me, so to speak. I’m not sorry I did it–I needed the job and I proved myself in two departments! But it wasn’t fun. Met a ton of people, though, which was helpful when reorgs came along and I needed to find another internal position.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Do you have two streams of work (each one managed by one manager) or do they kind of.. “co-manage” you doing one set of tasks?
      Which manager is actually part of the “function” that the project/process is for? How does it work with other “Management issues” like performance reviews, dealing with time off, etc?

      Btw, in my experience it isn’t that common to have your manager, and the manager’s manager, both be your boss. I mean in a technical sense they are, but typically you wouldn’t get work assigned and day-to-day management from your “grandboss” if there is a manager in between. Only on occasion for a Super Urgent Request or things like that perhaps.

      1. Two Bosses*

        Sometimes there might be projects where you are inputting data that your manager directs you to put. But the data is going to be examined by manager’s manager, which can also be your boss. Manager’s manager have given you directions on how to enter the data, but your manager gives you different directions and insisted her/his way is better than her/his manager’s way.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          Thanks for the context, I’m picturing in that case it probably comes down to whether those differences are about “process” or just about the actual output.

          For example, maybe the Big Boss just cares that “all the information about llamas is correctly entered onto sheet L and all the information about hyenas is correctly entered onto sheet H, the height should be in feet and inches formatted like this, and the weight should be in kilograms with 2 decimal places” (or whatever).
          Whereas the immediate boss gives you more specific instructions like “go through the paperwork and put all the llamas into one pile and all the hyenas into the other, then circle the height and weight, and if they’ve given the weight in pounds instead of kilograms then scribble it out and do this on a calculator”…

          If I’m wrong about that, and the two bosses are actually giving conflicting instructions that end up with a different “ultimate result” (e.g. llama height gets entered as “5 ft 9″ rather than 5’9” or such like) then you do need to get clarity between the two bosses as to which is the “correct” set of instructions.

          Is there anyone else in the company who the data entry is “for” (i.e. who’s the business stakeholder who uses it?), presumably they have some opinion on how it ought to be done.

          Ultimately I think there are 3 possible scenarios here – it’s my first example, in which case you get the same result but just using a different method so it doesn’t matter, or it’s the second case where there is someone else in the business who it’s “for” in which case you can clarify with them which instructions are correct (and feed back tactfully to the involved bosses accordingly), or it’s the case I didn’t mention which is where you have 2 bosses who each have an interest in data being entered into this system, but have different expectations on how it ought to appear. In that case you need to bring that up with both bosses ideally…

          … is the manager’s manager the ultimate “owner” of the data you are inputting or is it for someone independent of those bosses? I think is the key question for this specific scenario.

    9. Not today, Satin*

      Which manager’s process has priority is not your decision, you kick that back to them to hash out.

      It is not your job to manage you. So yes, you need to meet with them both and ask them to come up with a system of assigning work to you that is free of conflicting directions/processes.

      It is best to do this directly and calmly. If anyone has the right to be frustrated, it is you.

    10. Amethystmoon*

      Who actually signs your pay check? That is who is your real boss. I’ve been at a company for years where if you’re support, you do work for different people. But whoever signs your paycheck is your actual boss, and not them.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        I’ve never heard of this. Everywhere I’ve ever worked the CEO signs all the checks. Nothing to do with who you report directly to.

      2. Deanna Troi*

        I’ve never heard of this either. Everywhere I’ve ever worked, the check was signed by someone in accounting, finance, or HR. Often it was someone in another city or state whom I’d never even met. When I was a Director, I never even saw the paychecks of the people working for me. I did sign approve their timesheets, though. Perhaps that’s what Amethystmoon meant?

  24. Ann Perkins*

    If you suspect your boss/the head honcho of an organization is in a relationship with a subordinate on your level, do you say something? We have no dedicated HR. The boss is essentially the owner of the organization but as part of a parent company that does have the power to remove him, kind of like a franchise relationship. It’s a suspicion based on rumors and things I’ve seen that gives me pause (out of town the exact same days, subordinate given way more chances and promotions than what they’re qualified for, people having seen them together outside of work, both got out of other relationships at the same time).

    Part of me wants to keep my head down and ignore it, but it would be very inappropriate for his position and gives me lots of pause as to his leadership if it’s true, and he would likely be removed if our parent company knew. But I don’t want to go on a witch hunt either. Our parent company does have an ethics hotline, I’m just not sure if I have the obligation to open that can of worms.

    1. WellRed*

      I think keep your head down. Also, I don’t know that that’s what an ethics hotline is used for.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        It absolutely is what the ethics hotlines are for. They’re not there just for very specific situations, they exist as a way to report all sorts of squicky stuff. In a functional environment, cases are triaged and sent to the appropriate area to be looked into. A lot of things end up with HR, or have HR involvement, but it’s not uncommon for Internal Audit, Finance/Accounting, dedicated Fraud departments, Legal, etc to be involved as well.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Definitely something for the Ethics hotline. The favoritism alone is a big problem and the main reason this is the company’s business.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      You could call the ethics hotline. A lot of different things get called in, the company will have a process to sort out who needs to address things. They should do an investigation in whatever manner, then take whatever action is appropriate. However, you do not have the obligation to call.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      Check and see if the parent company has a compliance reporting phone or web line. They are totally anonymous generally managed by an external vendor. If you have that way to report it, I would recommend you do that.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      You don’t have the “obligation” to report it, but I think you could and should.
      Some of what you’ve suggested is ‘circumstantial’ (I think that’s the proper use of circumstantial!) and/or based on rumours from others, but even so, I get the impression you feel more certain than just a vague suspicion.
      Give them (hotline) the information and they can choose to investigate or not, and then you’ve done your part!

      I wouldn’t characterise it (in your mind) as a “witch hunt”. I take it you don’t have anything personally against this guy (outside of this).

      1. Ann Perkins*

        No, nothing else against him. Overall he’s a good boss and very respected in the organization. That’s what’s making this even harder to wrestle with.

        1. Shirley Keeldar*

          Can you report the favoritism (for which I assume you have evidence?) without competing on the cause (which seems more like suspicion) to the ethics hotline? Say you are concerned because Employee A seems to be getting projects and promotions they are not qualified for and you are worried about the effect on morale.

          1. Shirley Keeldar*

            Oops, that was supposed to be “without commenting” on the cause, not “competing.”

          2. AcademiaNut*

            No, that will really just seem like an employee whining because someone is doing better than they are. Having favourites is unpleasant, but usually not ethics hotline worthy. It’s the combination of favourtism and a personal relationship, or favourtism towards people of a protected class that warrants a call.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I don’t think you’re obligated, and I personally would be loath to report anything based on rumors, because I have seen so many situations where rumors like this were started entirely out of spite. Usually spite toward the subordinate.

      But the ethics hotline would be the right place to get reassurance about whether there are grounds for an official report, and if you are burdened about it, calling could ease your mind.

  25. Anon for this*

    Do y’all think it’s alright to ask a question if it’s been 3 weeks since asking Allison? It’s not a particularly exciting question, just something I’m not sure how to handle, but there’s probably a blindingly obvious answer.

    1. Somebody*

      No! I wondered this myself for a bit, but she posted my question after a few weeks of me wondering the same thing.

    2. Myrin*

      I think three weeks still falls under the umbrella of “recently” in Alison’s asterisk’ed sentence, but please correct me if I’m wrong, Alison!

  26. Eleanor Knope*

    Tips for dealing with grief at work?

    Last week, I lost my dad relatively unexpectedly (he was in the hospital with a lung infection that looked like it would clear up until it suddenly didn’t). Complicating things, he had a career in my same field and so everything I do reminds me of him and makes me wish I could call and ask for advice. And I’m 23 weeks pregnant. Earlier this year, I had a miscarriage that I didn’t handle well (tried to just push through and ignore it, then burnt out), and I don’t want to repeat that.

    If he were here, I’m sure he’d tell me to take advantage of my company’s EAP. Has anyone ever done that and have any thoughts?

    Thanks, all.

    1. Been There*

      I have no advice for you but want to send my condolences. I am SO so sorry you are going through this.

    3. The Rural Juror*

      If you find yourself getting overwhelmed, take breaks often, even if it’s just a few minutes to step outside or get a cup of tea. I remember being very distracted when my mother’s parents passed away within a few weeks of each other. It’s tough and your mind tends to wander to that grief. Tedious tasks, which were abundant in my role at the time, became difficult to focus on. At times I would just take a walk around the sidewalk outside my office to stretch my legs and get some fresh air. Sometimes I would cry for a bit, and it helped to have the space to do so.

      You definitely should take advantage of the EAP if you’re not uncomfortable doing so. I’m so sorry for your loss.

    4. deesse877*

      Agree with others that you should keep applying. My field is entirely different, but I found there were benefits to staying on top of hiring trends, and continually communicating with letter-writers, even in jobless seasons. If your school is up-and-out for postdocs, you also need to look hungry to maintain your reputation there as well.

      Courage.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Call your EAP! Take your dad’s advice. They’re generally confidential.

      I’m sorry for your loss. Hang in there.

    6. Fancy Owl*

      Definitely take advantage of the EAP! I’ve used mine for COVID related stress and it’s been a great resource. Also, in my experience EAP programs are run by a completely separate company that is contracted by your company. I’m assuming they have zero incentive to break confidentiality and tell your employer who is specifically using the service if they want to keep their reputation and attract new corporate clients in the future. Plus, again in my experience, the EAP company will just refer you to local therapists in your area so they don’t really have anything to tell your employer even if they wanted to.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        All of this. EAPs are completely confidential and very helpful. I’ve used them at two different companies with no issues (and my managers never knew).

        I’m sorry for your loss. I recently lost my uncle in May (about five days after my birthday), and therapy has really helped me get through the grieving process. Allowing myself to cry and just feel whatever I’m feeling with no judgment has also helped. Good luck to you and your little one.

    7. WellRed*

      Please take advantage of EAP, but also please make sure you take off the time you need. I should have taken at least another week beyond what I took when my dad died.
      I’m sorry for your loss.

      1. Katrinka*

        This +1,000! Be sure to take whatever the maximum # of days off your company gives you for death of a parent. It’s not jsut for traveling to a funeral, it’s also to give yourself emotional space to deal with the loss. And also reach out to the EAP, that’s why they’re there.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        I second this. When my uncle died in May, my company was kind enough to give me a week of paid bereavement leave. The week I would have come back, I already had vacation time scheduled. I took both weeks, and I’m so glad I did – I would have been a wreck coming back any sooner. I cried damn near all day for almost a week, I just couldn’t stop. By the time I went back, I was all cried out and ready to dive back into work as a distraction:

    8. Grumpy Lady*

      If not EAP, try to find a local therapist. When my mom died I was a wreck and it deeply impacted my work. I am so sorry you are dealing with this right now. Please take advantage of the resources available to you. Sending you virtual hugs.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Yep. Check out your EAP.
      You can also look for books on grief- these are not horrid. They are informative and most of them are gently written.
      There are also grief groups if you are so inclined.

      If you have PTO available, maybe you can take it strategically-such as give yourself a break by taking a few Fridays in a row off or taking half days on Wednesdays. This would just be a time out from your ordinary routines.

      I am so sorry for your loss.

    10. M. Albertine*

      Yes. I used my EAP to help me deal with infertility and multiple pregnancy losses. It was the best thing I ever did for myself. You are dealing with A LOT! You are allowed to ask for help! (I learned that in therapy.)

    11. allathian*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.
      Please follow your father’s advice and take advantage of your company’s EAP.
      I did it last year, when I was almost burned out from a work project that was very demanding and intense (by the end, I had accumulated almost two weeks’ worth of overtime, I’m exempt but they track hours to ensure people don’t work themselves to burnout).

    12. Sam I Am*

      I’m really sorry about your dad.

      Sounds like a good resource for you at the moment, and if you don’t feel any relief you may find yourself with a clearer idea of what support you’re looking for- once you see what ways it’s being offered. Then you can find those things outside of the EAP if not within it. Sort of like doing a test drive or a taste test; even if, at first, you find the ones that you don’t like, you’ll have a clearer understanding of what you do like.

  27. Aggretsuko*

    They did manage to successfully hire someone in my office. The temp leaves on the 21st, the new one starts on the 22nd. I hope this goes well.

    I got In Trouble again this week. Sigh. I’m so tired of inadvertently pissing people off here.

    And yet, yesterday was the first day I’ve felt actually sane since March. Go figure.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I got in Trouble too.
      Now I put on a headset and listen to music while I work so that I don’t hear any of the (constant) convos around me. I have been so happy all week! I had no idea I could work with music on in a headset but I can and got so much done!
      Friends and family are shocked that I have nothing to say about work – because I literally know nothing. It is glorious.

  28. Somebody*

    I am hiring for the first time ever (wahoo!) and I feel like my expectations are high from reading this blog. I’ve gotten 45 applications and only 4 cover letters, one of which is hilarious (I will truly treasure it forever). Is that normal? I’ve gotten gotten several applications from people who aren’t local. Should I assume they want to relocate or they aren’t serious candidates? The job is an internship (neither full time nor permanent) and it is hybrid (part remote, part in person).

    1. Megumin*

      That sounds normal to me. I’ve participated in hiring for several years now, and even for higher level, permanent positions, at least half were not local, and typically only 25% of the cover letters were actual cover letters. Our online app system requires a “letter of interest” be submitted in order to complete the app, but usually they just put one sentence in a word doc that says something like, “I am interested in this position.”

        1. Turtlewings*

          I mean, off the top of my head I don’t know what in the world would go into a “letter of interest.” Even regular cover letters are a massive pain in the neck, and until I started reading AAM I wouldn’t write one unless the application form literally wouldn’t let me proceed without it. I’m sure the ones I did slap together were terrible, because I had no idea what purpose they served other than to make applicants grovel. Job applications are already such a tedious, irritating hassle, I wouldn’t necessarily call someone “lazy” for trying to just get the thing turned in with a minimum of sweat and tears.

    2. windowround*

      My experience is that quality applicants are low in many roles. When you get those rejections that say things like ‘we had many qualified applicants’ that could mean that out of a 100 applicants there were 5 qualified ones and you were number 3 in rank.

      Most times I’ve posted a job ad the quality of applicants has been really poor. That said maybe the job or salary just isn’t good enough to attract people.

      1. Somebody*

        It is a part time internship, so I was only expecting students or recent grads. The salary is very good (there are nearly no paid internships where I am and we’re offering far more money than any retail or food service in the area).

        The quality of the applicants is good, but the lack of real cover letters is shocking! The ad says – twice – must include a cover letter to be considered.

        1. Megumin*

          I think people just don’t really know what a real cover letter looks like, or how to put one together. But that can be corrected with a simple google search – especially because AAM has such good resources on it! But alas. I don’t like how my company’s app system calls it a “letter of interest” because then we get crap like what I described above. We also get multi-page dissertations that are basically narrative forms of their resume, which is exhausting to read.

        2. Katrinka*

          How are they submitting the documents? Could there be a transmission error? At one employer, we had a glitch in the application system where some attachments weren’t coming through. Someone figured it out after about the third cover letter that referenced a resume that wasn’t included when the application was pulled up.

        3. Mill Miker*

          You’re not working with one of those setups where the candidates send in an email, and you only get the attachments, but the actual body of the email was intended to be the cover letter, are you? I swear I’ve heard of that being a thing before.

    3. Mazzy*

      Where are you getting the non-local candidates from? I am finding that some websites like indeed have people from all over the country “apply” and I believe they are fake applications at this point, or they must have some option where one can “apply all” because I’ve had the randomest people from 2,000 who were a total mismatch or were way over-qualified apply, with no cover letter, no explanation

      1. Somebody*

        Yes, exactly, Indeed and LinkedIn. Overqualified, not local, no cover letter. It is completely baffling to me.

      2. Katrinka*

        I have had Indeed send me information about “positions you might be interested in” that were nothing like what I was looking for. I think there are yes or no options in the email, so if someone selected the wrong one, it might send their Indeed resume without any attachments.

        I have also applied to jobs through Indeed that did not offer the option of providing attachments at all. But it did have a box where I could type in text (I compose a cover letter offline and then cut and paste it into the text box. It might be that people don’t realize they can do a cover letter this way and send the application in without it. You might want to make sure Indeed and LinkedIn have your applications properly formatted.

    4. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      If you’re dealing with current students — yes, this is pretty typical. Even with grad students applying for positions, I get a lot of applications without cover letters when the application specifically says that cover letters are required. With the lack of cover letters, I think there’s a few factors into why that happens. For one, like someone understands, a lot of students don’t understand what the purpose of a cover letter is or how to write an effective one. Also, I think if they are applying through an application system, but the system doesn’t have a required spot for the cover upload (either the button is optional or there’s simply a spot to upload any materials), then students may be thinking that the cover letter is not actually required. And, writing a cover letter takes time — and as such, students may taking the quantity (apply for as many jobs as possible) over quality approach with their internship search.
      Also, with the non-local thing — are these students at a near-by college or university? Could they be putting down their parents’ address rather than their own temporary dorm/apt address for the upcoming year? But yeah, if you can’t figure out fairly quickly that they may be attending a local institution in the upcoming academic year, move on.

    7. tamarack and fireweed*

      I would expect what you get is strongly influenced by what the posting looked like to potential candidate, and what the system required them to submit. The lack of cover letters, for example, would tend to shock me less if: your applicants are less experienced on the job market, the ad didn’t clearly say a cover letter is required and/or the interface had no prominent option for supplying one.

      If you have (apparently) well-fitting candidates without cover letter, then the lack shouldn’t be an impediment to interviewing them – especially not for an internship where mentoring about professional standards is part of what they can expect to receive. But a well-crafted cover letter (or indeed any suitable cover letter, to a lesser degree) is a legitimate plus.

      As for the non-local candidates, in itself I wouldn’t assume anything. The address could just be where they’re staying during COVID… but if they’re overqualified then a letter to explain why they think they’re a good fit for the position would be more expected. But again, don’t make super-hard assumptions!

      How much are you bound by a rigid recruitment process? If you have interesting profiles among non-local / overqualified candidates with no cover letter, can you set up 5 min screening calls JUST for those, basically asking “why are you interested?” and (if non-local) “would you be able to relocate here?” and then, based on these answers, decide to proceed or not.

      (BTW if you’re new to this – I found that immediately taking contemporaneous notes and writing half-page summaries after interviews is helpful to better ensure fairness to the candidates.)

  29. Janis Mayhem*

    How do I LinkedIn? Finally started setting up my profile there but don’t want my current employer to know I’m going to send out feelers. I feel like a crotchety old woman having to deal with newfangled gadgets. It’s all a bit overwhelming.

    1. Buttons*

      Just because you are on LinkedIn doesn’t mean you are job hunting. Put your current job in just like a resume. I’ve been on LinkedIn for years and update my job and description each time I get a promotion. I have been at my current company for 7 years and I am not job hunting.

      2. Glitsy Gus*

        Same here. It’s kind of the best thing about LinkedIn. You can do some not-so-subtle “Hey look at me! I’m pretty great!” with the full ability to say, “oh, I’m just keeping my info current,” if anyone at your current job even notices (which they usually won’t).

    3. YetAnotherGenXDevManager*

      Couple of tips: have a good headshot, and replace the standard cover photo with something related to your field (can even be just a stock photo – I am using a free stock photo that shows lines of code because I am in software dev).

      You can set your settings to be open to recruiters but avoid your current company, but to do that you’d have to list them.

      Treat it like a more expansive resume – but not a paragraphs long one. And make use of the executive summary section to really sell yourself.

    5. Katniss Evergreen*

      Agreeing with the above commenters. Don’t feel weird about searching with LinkedIn as if it makes you look like you have a giant sign that says “I’M JOB SEARCHING” on your forehead. Lots of people decide to follow big names in their field, take in business-related news, or mentor people through LinkedIn, it doesn’t just have to be for job-searching. It’s nice to see people’s work-related accomplishments and anniversaries, for those connections of mine who keep up with it.

      I’m trying to correct LinkedIn misconceptions wherever I find them – a scientific investigator at work once thought he shouldn’t hire anyone who’s on LinkedIn because that means they’re always looking for a job! That’s insane! I told him I update my LinkedIn whenever I finish a big project at work that makes sense to showcase as part of my accomplishments, and use it for professional contacts, because that’s true.

  30. Chronic Overthinker*

    Next week I celebrate my first anniversary at my job. Now I’m experiencing FOMO. My duties constantly shift from more to less, though I do provide administrative/reception services (ordering supplies, handling 98% of outgoing mail, maintain conference room calendars, client intake etc) and for all other tasks I’m essentially an ad hoc employee. When I get assignments, I complete them in a timely manner and have been very slowly been getting more complicated assignments. However, some days have little to no assignments and I feel like I’m being paid just to be a butt in a seat. Should I see what’s out there and potentially miss out on any potential advancement here? (doesn’t seem likely, yet.) Or should I stay and try to grow within the company? Management is very hands-off and expects 90% independence. I just wish I knew what I need to do to prove myself and get that next promotion.

    1. Mockingjay*

      I think a simple conversation might solve your dilemma. Request a meeting with the supervisor you report to or bring this up in your annual review. “Hey, boss, I’ve been here a year now. I like what I do, but I’d like to move up. Can you tell me about the career path?” Or “hey, boss, I find that I often finish my assigned tasks early and have to wait for the next assignment. What should I do in the interim? Is there training I could take?” Or, “I’ve been doing a variety of tasks and I’d like to do more of X. What would it take for me to join the X team?”

      Think about what skills/options you want to pursue, lay out a course of action, and present it to your boss. See what happens and decide from there.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I don’t think there’s any harm in seeing what’s out there… what sense do you have of potential growth at your current company? Are you (by title/job description) an Administrator / Receptionist or are you officially something else but are “picking up” the admin/reception duties?

      Is there any scope for you to think up ‘projects’ (or whatever applies… initiatives etc) and propose them to management?

      I think the crux of it could be a mismatch in expectations (which can be resolved with communication with your boss). Management “expects 90% independence” and you say yourself that you don’t know what you need to do to prove yourself… but I also get the sense you are waiting to be “assigned” things and maybe management are expecting you to initiate more work yourself?

      I can totally see a possible situation (just based on what’s written here) where manager is a little frustrated that “Chronic OverThinker has been here a year and they still seem to be ramping up and only taking on the smaller assignments, when will they start to take more initiative?” and meanwhile you (understandably!) are thinking something like “I don’t have enough background knowledge or organizational context to be able to suggest things proactively, other than being handed individual assignments”

      What are you doing during the time you are just being a “butt in a seat”, for example, do you have any scope to do any individual learning/training or research relevant to the company or industry?

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        CO here. My title is Receptionist/Admin Assistant, but I try to do a little of everything, or take on anything anyone asks. The biggest issue I have is the person I report to doesn’t give me tasks. The other staff in the office are the ones giving me tasks, and they are the assistants to the bigwigs so they are constantly busy. I definitely don’t have the knowledge base to suggest things proactively as I don’t have specific clients, but I have been more proactive about the things I can do. I assist with client correspondence on occasion and create new client files when I can. I don’t think I’m useless here, but I definitely feel under-utilized. I struggle to know what the proper resources are for the things I want to learn. Training would be great, if only I knew what direction they wanted me to go in. I would hate to train on something that isn’t relevant to my position.

    3. Kiitemso*

      Hey, I have a somewhat similar position. I answer phones and emails a lot so I have something to do but some days are slow, other days I have a ton on my plate. You can and should talk to your manager about whether there is something you could do in between your other tasks that could help out with. If you’re judged to be a quick learner and a good pair of hands, they may start putting more on your plate because they know you can be counted on.

      I find in positions like ours, you can carve out a niche for yourself and become indispensable to the company by doing a great job. Then if something opens up they may think “Hey, CO would be perfect for this, maybe we should interview her.” or if nothing ever comes up, at least you’ll leave the place with rave recommendations.

  31. Deschain*

    Has anyone ever applied or worked for the virtual accounting firm Belay? I went through testing and three rounds of interviews, but I’m hesitant now whether I want to work with them. I’ve run my own bookkeeping business for local clients for the past five years, so I’m used to being my own boss and I have a permanent office in my home. But a couple of my clients are closing (pre-Covid decisions), so I thought it would be helpful to find an additional way to get new clients. Even though Belay is very clearly seeking contractors only, the hiring process seems geared more towards employees (entry-level questions like where I see myself in one year and three years, irrelevant questions like what I’m passionate about and what sacrifices have I made for work). On the one hand, I get that it’s still an interview, but I would expect them to want to discuss my work setup, how I handle client issues, what the appropriate turnaround time is, etc. Real work things! Does anyone have any knowledge of Belay?

    1. Admiral Thrawn is Still Blue*

      My last company switched to them because it was cheaper than the onsite one we had then. This isn’t exactly what you are looking for, but I can tell you that they are EXTREMELY rigid about how they work, deadlines, etc. Maybe if they are paid more they have more flexibility but my frustration with them was that they would not budge an inch on anything, it was strictly set up for their system and convenience.

      1. Deschain*

        Thank you! That’s actually very helpful. I’m a big believer in great customer service, and to me that means being adaptable because the whole point of my business is to make my clients’ lives easier. Being inflexible is exactly the opposite of how I work! I really appreciate your insight!

        1. Admiral Thrawn is Still Blue*

          I’m glad I could help. I found our bookkeeper to be pleasant when I had to deal with her directly, but she couldn’t step a toe out of the script. Overall, a frustrating experience. Good luck!

  32. NW Mossy*

    The “ask the readers” thread yesterday got me thinking about how the OP’s individual problem (figuring out how to work and parent simultaneously) is really a collective one. Many people faced with her scenario will take up what many readers suggested – a leave of absence or quitting altogether, because a job can be left but children can’t. How will our organizations cope with a significant exodus of parents from the workforce?

    I think about this a lot not just because I’m grappling with the problem myself, but because my industry (retirement planning) will need to as well. Short-term, it has the potential to be really destabilizing to some teams and orgs – if a few parents end up quitting because their kids’ schools go virtual in the fall, it could tip an already fragile company into outright disaster. Long-term, people exiting the workforce during their prime working years and struggling to re-enter later will have a decades-long hangover effect on savings and growth.

    What I ultimately conclude from this is that as much as we want to push this problem onto parents to “solve” at the individual level, there’s no dodging the ripple effect of their individual choices. If organizations push too hard to have their workers be “normal,” they’ll feed into a broader fall in the workforce that ultimately ends up hurting them more than a year or two of reduced productivity. Organizations that see this risk and adjust expectations early are likely to weather it better than those that put their faith in a rapid restoration of pre-pandemic assumptions about labor markets.

    1. windowround*

      Companies need to be more family friendly, both during Covid and in general.

      The problem is many companies idea of being family friendly is simply to dump more work on co workers who wind up paying the price for parent workers choices.

      While we all need to pitch in for our co workers from time to time it really sucks when companies do things like give all the good holiday dates to people with kids.

      It’s not up to co workers to shoulder this burden. Companies need to hire more people or design the work day to accomodate working parents, not just ask everyone else to pick up more slack.

      1. NW Mossy*

        Your last sentence gets to what I mean about adjusting expectations. The company’s leadership has to explicitly define what is truly critical now, be able to see through metrics how productivity has changed, and set the right mix of people, technology, and process to achieve the priorities without driving any of the three to breaking.

        I’ll also throw out what I think should be the principle for anyone reassigning work from one person to another: what should the receiving person stop doing upon receipt of this new task? We tend to see our work as a fixed set of things that are all equally necessary, but that rarely stands up to scrutiny. In my own teams, I’ve had really good success in driving out pointless work by asking “why do we do this?” and listening closely to the answers.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, it’s not a company or a parent or a non-parent problem. It’s a society problem. When society is still largely setup to assume that there’s always a non-working parent at home, this is what happens. With any luck (let’s be honest, it’s not luck, it’ll be people getting fed up and saying this isn’t working and we need to fix the problem), we will as a society change how things operate. Children require supervision. There is no getting out of that. We require children, or we do assuming we don’t want the species to die out. As such, some of the solutions are going to have come from the government. Paid parental leave, affordable and quality child care, etc.

      And anyone who argues that the free market will solve it – um, we have some pretty good evidence that the free market hasn’t solved the problem, and it’s been decades.

      1. WellRed*

        “When society is still largely setup to assume that there’s always a non-working parent at home, this is what happens.”

        nailed it!

      2. ampersand*

        Exactly. This is what I keep coming back to: American society, in particular, was not prepared to handle a pandemic, and we’re paying for that now. Lots of people just want the economy back up and running without acknowledging/addressing the fact that everything is interconnected and we’re not a nation of robots who can just drop everything and work. There’s no safety net or plan in place to deal with the loss of childcare, schools closing, the need for distance learning, etc., or anything that leads to (like a mass exodus from the workforce, an uptick in retirements, etc.).

        This problem is systemic, and fixing it will require a reckoning of sorts with employers/businesses and leaders. Citizens collectively have power, of course (I have never contacted local representatives and politicians as often as I have the past four or so months), but individuals can’t begin to fix this issue without understanding, compassion, and (most importantly) buy in from the people in charge. They’re the ones making the decisions and telling people they have to be back at work OR ELSE, while also forcing parents to make literal life-or-death decisions. The situation is unsustainable and tragic.

      3. Joielle*

        Yep, this is what I was going to say too. It’s definitely not an individual problem, but even the company can only do so much. Ultimately, the problem is that parents can’t work full time hours and care for children at the same time. The company could pay them for full time hours anyways, but would presumably have to hire more people to pick up the remaining hours, so it just pushes the financial burden onto companies – some of which could certainly afford it, but some of which couldn’t. It’s society’s problem, so we need society (so… tax dollars, collected and organized by the government) to step in.

    3. Nita*

      I think this will cause a lot more problems than people realize. Major social instability, all kinds of unpredictable and unpleasant consequences. A lot of middle-class people will become poor. A lot of poor people will become destitute. A lot of children will be at risk, left with unreliable caregivers, left home alone, falling victims to parents who were pushed to the brink… Getting child care up and running again should be a priority, but we got what we voted for – fools in local government, fools in federal government, and they’d all rather burn everything down and blame the other side, than actually work for a solution. We parents need to be protesting in the streets, but let’s be real, who’s going to watch the kids?

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        I’m worried about the impact on women in particular. I feel like the impact from this could have the potential to drive many women out of the work force.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      If organizations push too hard to have their workers be “normal,” they’ll feed into a broader fall in the workforce that ultimately ends up hurting them more than a year or two of reduced productivity. Organizations that see this risk and adjust expectations early are likely to weather it better than those that put their faith in a rapid restoration of pre-pandemic assumptions about labor markets.

      I’ve got some thinking to go off and do here, as I’m conscious I have a very “onus is on the individual” way of thinking a lot of the time, even though intellectually I do recognise the more ‘structural’ issues about that.

      The problem I think is that most orgs are just immediately trying to get through this… there’s no point thinking of the “long term” if you don’t get through the short term first. Yes, I know all the downsides of that but in order to be hurt in 2 years time by a long-term effect first your company has to get through the 2 years!

      It seems to be related to the “tragedy of the commons”.

      On a macro level, assuming we do recover from this there will be the same number of openings and opportunities as before, so I’m not sure it’s true that everyone will struggle to re-enter – companies will need to adjust their own expectations (e.g. if before they would have rejected someone due to a resume “gap”) accordingly, and balance will be somewhat restored in that way.

      1. NW Mossy*

        I think you’re right that the “gap penalty” will be reduced somewhat, but it may partially manifest as a “no-gap credit.” Part of why the bias against resume gaps developed is the understanding that there’s some amount of skill/productivity loss over that gap. I think that’s probably overblown (especially for gaps of a year or less), but I can easily see those remaining in work during the pandemic having a leg up in the labor market later on. Evaluating candidates is hard, and objective comparators like gap vs. no-gap are inherently attractive as a way to simplify that difficult process.

    6. Koala dreams*

      I was one of those people, but I didn’t mean leaving the workforce, I imagined a temporary period of working shorter hours or a short leave for a couple of months until you can either switch with the other parent or find a babysitter. Many parents want to work and take care of their children, but many companies prefer layoffs over giving people (including parents and non-parents) the opportunity to stay on and work 6 or 7 hours a day, with split hours for those who need it. I get the dilemma for jobs that must be done at the work site (companies must limit number of people because of the pandemic), but for work from home, I don’t understand the problem. It’s not realistic that employees will never need time off, especially in a pandemic and companies need to plan for that. It’s also good for the future to already have connections with temps who can fill future roles. Students, parents and caretakers can need a temporary job now, and still want a full-time job in a few years time.

      As a society, we need to start considering caretaking work essential, just as food and electricity. I feel many of the plans for the pandemic are very unclear on how caretaking work is supposed to be done, it’s like the decision makers don’t see it because it’s unpaid work.

      In the future, I hope for the six hour working day. Companies produce more and more, but it’s not sustainable for society, not for nature and not for the climate. With a shorter working day people could have more time for life. I think, I hope, that people will make better decisions for society as a whole when they have the power over their time, as opposed to companies and the market having the power.

  33. Emily Elizabeth*

    During these weird COVID times, how would y’all recommend resigning from a job when you’re technically already laid off? I am a preschool teacher who was already mildly job searching when the virus hit. I was laid off from my school with communication of full intention to bring me back in the fall. In the meantime, I’ve kept interviewing, and just accepted an offer for a new school this past week. I know it’s time to rip off the bandaid and let my boss know I won’t be back in the fall, but how should I resign when there’s no 2 weeks to give or loose ends of work to wrap up? Should I email, call, apparate 6 feet away from my director? I feel terrible leaving my kids and the school when we never got a real chance to wrap up last year.

    1. whistle*

      I would recommend to make a phone call, then follow up with an email to confirm. Just keep in matter of fact – “I have accepted a new position and won’t be able to return in the fall. With all the uncertainty, it was important for me to secure a full time position. I’m happy to assist with wrapping up any loose ends, and grateful for the opportunity.”

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I believe the sentiment is that if you’re already laid off, you’re already technically free of obligation to your now-former employer. It would be polite to notify them that you’re accepting a new position so they know not to try to recall you to work in the future, but normal considerations like notice don’t apply.

      I would approach your specific situation, the details of which you know far better than I do, under the framing of what will help you sleep at night, and what you think would salvage the relationship if you were ever in a position to desire to return to that school in any capacity.

    3. The Rural Juror*

      How close are you with the boss? I would call if you feel that’s more personable, but then follow up with an email. “Just calling to let you know I’ve accepted another position. I’ll follow up with an email so you have it in writing, but I wanted to let you know personally.” and then some niceties about enjoying your time there or whatever, and wish them the best. None of this situation is ideal, but it won’t hurt to call, even if you’re just leaving a voicemail.

    4. Katrinka*

      I was Lead Secretary in a middle school until very recently. Legally, you’re under no obligation to your former school, since they’ve not offered you a contract for next year, and you could just turn down the contract if they did offer it to you. However, even though they know that nothing is set until the contracts are signed, a lot of admins do like to start planning for next year as soon as possible. The sooner your admin knows you aren’t available, the better for them. But a phone call is not necessary, (and may not be possible, unless you know the admin’s cell number) and email will be just fine.

    5. Morning reader*

      I don’t know, but it’s very kind of you to socially distance when you apparate. Hufflepuff?

      1. Emily Elizabeth*

        Have been a Ravenclaw for more than a decade but you know, feeling more and more like a Hufflepuff these days…Ravenpuff perhaps? :)

    6. Not This One*

      Fellow teacher, who has previously resigned (to take a new position) during the summer. In my case, we were still a month out from the new school year starting, so I just called my boss (who knew I was searching) and followed up with an email to both her and the district’s HR office. If we’d been in-person in any way, I would have done it that way, but it was late July/early August, so I wasn’t in the building and neither was she. I had no work to wrap up since it was summer, so there really wasn’t a “notice period.”

  34. OneBean TwoBean*

    I have a part-time employee whose duties are about 75% admin, 25% cleaning. We are a small organization and she is our only cleaner. She is dealing with a (non-work-related) injury and calling in sick fairly frequently. It wouldn’t be that big of an issue except for the fact that with covid, I need to have our office cleaned regularly! (We do have employees who need to work in the office daily.) It doesn’t matter if wastebaskets don’t get emptied for a day or two, but we need to have communal high-touch areas cleaned. When she’s called in, I’ve been cleaning in her place but I really don’t want to keep doing that. I could cut her cleaning hours and hire a service, which I might have to do. But that feels like such a jerky thing to do. Anyone have a magic solution that I haven’t thought of?

    1. whistle*

      I think you need to hire a service. It’s a pandemic, and the cleaning cannot be missed for even a day if people are working in the office. No one person can 100% be in charge of that.

      1. Katrinka*

        The requirements/recommendations for properly cleaning and sanitizing work spaces are pretty tough for one person to dedicate just a little bit of time to any way. Even if your employee were not injured, expecting her to meet the guidelines with only a couple of hours a day is not sustainable. I understand that money is probably tight, but your company needs to find a way to hire a professional to come in and clean every single day (preferably after people are gone for the day, so that things are ready to go first thing in the morning).

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Is there any other work, even “want it” work instead of “need it” work that could replace the 25% she’s devoting to cleaning?

    3. BRR*

      There are a lot of other solutions: Hire a service and replace that 25% with other stuff, hire a service since Covid cleaning is likely going to take more time than cleaning did before, have someone as back up if it’s in the scope of their job description, shuffle duties around more permanently if it’s in the scope of their job description, see if you can find someone to come in just for when she calls out

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Hire a service, redirect her onto other stuff (or have the conversation about whether she has any suggestions – it may be she is happy to cut her hours to just the “admin” tasks, for example if she has another job she can pick up more hours at?)

  35. Amber Rose*

    I made a huge mistake at work but I’m so checked out of this company and it’s BS that I can’t bring myself to care. Compounding matters, my boss is even more checked out than I am and also really doesn’t care. So. That’s happening.

    I gotta get out. But starting over is so scary. Compounding matters: is this a safe place to be anymore? I’d argue, no. We’re becoming a mini-USA and I hate it. I don’t think I want to live in this province anymore. But we absolutely can’t move. We have so much debt and a mortgage on a house that has lost so much value we have zero equity in it after 6 years. That might change in a year or two… but do I want to change jobs just for a year or two?

    So many dilemmas and I’m worn out.

    1. ieAnon*

      No advice, just sympathy! We’re in the middle of buying a house that I absolutely love and am excited to move into, but I cannot stay at my job any longer. It’s gone from independent work on interesting projects to micromanagerial BS all day, every day. And due to covid, my available pool of jobs to apply to is quite shallow.

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with changing jobs for a year or two, though! If you can do it, you should. Your plans to move might even change if you don’t feel so miserable at work.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Start looking around and see what is out there.

      There is only one thing worse than feeling trapped. And that is a sense that we have given up on our own selves.
      If the best you can do is look for work for one hour a week, then do that. There’s a covert message going on here. When you do this you send a message to yourself, “I think that *I* am worth helping here. I am worth bailing my own self out of this hole I am caught in right now.”

      Interestingly the more dire the work setting the more scary it can be to try to make steps forward. It’s a circle work gets worse and fear goes up; then fear goes up so work gets even worse. The challenge becomes finding the weakest points in this circle and breaking in at those points.

      So you probably interact with other companies at work, perhaps? Are any of them interesting to you? Or even doable for you?

      If this is the same place you have been right along, I am amazed. You are actually a very strong person. Please remind yourself of that.

    3. Something Something Whomp Whomp*

      Sigh, I hear you, I suspect I know which province you’re talking about and…yeah. No solutions here, just sympathy and letting you know that some of us are asking ourselves similar questions.

    4. tuesday last?*

      totally look around and see if you can jump ship for a year or two. Your description sounds untenable. And even if you don’t care about the new job in 6 months, at least you’ll have 6 months of something new.

  36. Fluffernutter*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to add fluff to work/professional emails? I am a pretty straightforward person and that reflects in my communications. I have never gotten complaints from our clients or customers, some have even complimented my ability to give them a quick, straight to the point answer. My manager is also completely fine with my style of communication.

    I have, however, had an issue with a colleague who doesn’t like me (for other reasons) and has complained that my style is rude. I have not been disciplined because everyone disagrees with my colleague but I wanted to get some tips on how to fluff things up when I email them. I also think it’d be a good skill to have for future prickly people.

    1. Long Time Fed*

      Address people by name rather than just launching into the point of the email. I also tend to be straight forward, but a “Thanks!” at the end seems to soften things. I don’t get any complaints either.

    2. 7310*

      Sounds like you are doing fine.
      The problem belongs to your colleague and is solely in the present.
      Regarding fluff: I am equally brusque in my emails but do make sure I include a personal greeting. Especially if I am asking for something.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Exactly. Being straightforward is not rude. They’re reading it as you being rude, but that’s all in their head. If you add too much fluff, then it may be more difficult for people to absorb the information that’s being given.

        I struggle with that sometimes. My sole form of communication with a lot of our vendors is through email, so I do use a lot of fluff to be polite and maintain relationships. But, after an initial email, if they come back with questions I’m much more direct. They need information to accurately provide estimates and services. At that point, it’s more considerate of me to keep it short and precise. If these are coworkers you see everyday, the niceties can be exchanged at the water cooler or whatever.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I’ve dealt with this my whole life — I’m very direct and a woman, so straightforward emails that (if I were a man) no one would blink at are often seen as brusque. Here’s what I’ve done:
      Start every email with “Hi Recipient!”
      Use complete sentences that restate the issue in full, so instead of “yes, that’s right” say “yes, all of the teapots should be painted green, thanks!”
      If the answer is no, always soften the blow and explain the reasoning even if it is crazysauce that they are asking “Hi Jane! Great question, but unfortunately, sending out broken teapots is not an option because it violates the broken teapot laws, broken teapots aren’t usable and if we sent broken teapots, that would result in a lot of customer complaints.” Instead of “No, we can’t send broken teapots.”

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Same approach here. And it’s complete BS that women have to go to such lengths when men can get away with the one liners.

      2. Fluffernutter*

        I am a woman so I have kept that in mind when listening to the colleague’s complaints! I do make sure to reply with a couple sentences as you’ve shown instead of just “No, we can’t send broken teapots”. It just hasn’t been enough for the colleague….:\
        I think I’ve also felt a bit of doubt because the colleague’s manager, who is also my manager’s manager, does a ton of fluff. An email I would’ve replied with just one sentence somehow turns into three paragraphs when written by him. I would never be able to come up with the same amount but since someone higher above me prefers it, I thought maybe I could add a bit. He’s never mentioned it to me though so maybe I’m overthinking.

      3. Beatrice*

        I started doing this a couple of years ago when I switched from a role where I interacted mostly with engineers, who generally don’t give a fig about pleasantries, to a role where I interacted with people in softer customer-facing roles, where building and maintaining relationships was a huge deal.

        A couple of additional things I do…add in phrases like “Thanks!” as a closing and “Please don’t hesitate to contact me with any questions” even if they feel unnecessary. And the occasional “I hope this email finds you well”, “Have a great weekend!”, “Hope you had a good weekend!”, etc. that acknowledges the reader as a person is good, too.

        I agree on starting emails with “Hi Recipient!” I learned to avoid uses like “Recipent, no, we can’t send broken teapots” or worse, “No, Recipient, we can’t send broken teapots.” If you don’t make the use of their name sound overtly pleasant or even bubbly, it’s easy for it to be misread as chiding, especially when you’re saying no or making a correction.

    4. Somebody*

      I find how accommodating you’re willing to be very endearing! This comment made me chuckle a bit :)

        1. allathian*

          Oh, I don’t know. Maybe soften a bit for them, and keep to the normal style for everyone else who isn’t complaining.

          I’m just glad that I work in a culture where it’s equally acceptable for women to be direct as it is for men. We’re getting a bit better at small talk these days, but even in the mid-90s when I graduated from college, some people were intensely proud of their total inability to make small talk and to be nice to other people, even their bosses. It was baffling. Even more so when it apparently didn’t hurt their careers at all… But this was in an extremely task-oriented org.

          In my current org when I’m dealing with internal customers, I start my emails with Hi Recipient and end with Thanks, Regards, etc. depending. With my boss and the rest of my team, I start with Hi (sometimes with the name, sometimes without, especially with my coworker) and close with just my first name.

          I’m in a government agency, but most of our employees have an engineering background. It shows in many ways, but our leadership has started to realize that soft skills are essential for wellbeing at work.

          My job is to provide services for internal customers, and as such I can’t really turn down their requests, unless they’re completely unreasonable. In those cases I cc my boss and she can take it from there. When I say a request is not part of our remit, my boss will confirm, but it’s great to know she has our backs. That said, I have quite a bit of leeway when it comes to prioritizing tasks. I do everything they ask and in a timely manner, but a kind request will often get the job done faster.

    5. Third or Nothing!*

      I have a boilerplate email I use when sending reports to my various customers. It goes like this:

      Good morning all [substitute the first name if it goes to an individual instead of a team],

      Attached is your [name of report] for [date]. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks and have a great day!

      Thanks,

      Third or Nothing!

      Short, to the point, but has just enough fluff to feel personable and approachable. (The fluff is “good morning,” “please,” and “thanks and have a great day.”) You don’t need to get effusive; a few small pleasantries here and there will suffice.

    6. BRR*

      Not sure what your emails look like or how much fluff. But some of my go tos are saying good morning instead of hello, if it’s Monday “I hope your had a nice weekend,”ending with “have a great weekend” if it’s Friday. If you have have a shared interest like tv throw that In as a ps “have you seen the floor is lava yet? It was awesome!”

    7. Fabulous*

      Here’s some tips that I actually had given my manager (after she expressly asked; I had done a workshop on incorporating tone into writing):

      Conversational tone
      The first action is to create a conversational tone in your writing. Anything you write should sound like it were coming out of your mouth, and contractions are an easy way to do that. We use contractions when we speak, and we can use them when we write too! Use of contractions give your writing a more casual, relaxed effect that helps to build a relationship with the reader.

      Think positive
      Second, and probably more importantly, here are a few bullets to keep in mind:

      • Avoid authoritative phrases. Basically, don’t use negative phrasing! The words “don’t do this or that” sound like you’re a parent scolding a child, and we don’t want that type of relationship with the reader.
      • Avoid sarcastic remarks. Because tone often isn’t always obvious in writing, we want to avoid phrasing that can potentially be construed as negative or insulting.
      • Be careful not to talk down to the reader in your documents. As I mentioned above, we want to treat the reader as an adult, not a child.

      Here is an example from a recent submission:

      • Original: “If all pre-work isn’t complete prior to each course, you will not be allowed to participate in the session.”
      • With positive phrasing: “Session participation is contingent upon the completion of all pre-work and application assignments.”

      1. allathian*

        Mmmh. Some would disagree with your last one.
        “To participate in each session, you need to complete all pre-work and application assignments” is both positive and direct.
        I’m not saying the passive voice is always inappropriate, but in this case it sounds unnecessarily convoluted.
        I work as a translator and proofreader. The main part of my job is to ensure that complex government texts are understandable to the general public.

        1. Fabulous*

          That’s a good point. I definitely prefer active to passive voice! Possibly something like “Please complete your pre-work in order to qualify for the next session” would be a better replacement.

      2. MacGillicuddy*

        I agree with allathian and Fabulous – the “with positive phrasing” version is convoluted and not clear (although the original sounds like you’re scolding the reader).

        Its fine to tell the reader what they need to do in order to do something else. Instructions can sometimes soften requirements so much that they sound like suggestions instead.

        Using active voice is important. Passive voice leads to confusion. This is especially true for readers for whom English is a second language.

    8. Mazzy*

      Wait, you want to add fluff? No! Don’t fix what isn’t broken! One of the biggest mistakes I see entry level workers make is include too much in emails, and then senior staff’s eyes either glaze over, or they only respond to one of the many issues in the email.

      1. Beatrice*

        If she’s writing very terse emails, adding greeting and closing and an occasional pleasantry is fine.

    9. Delta Delta*

      I’m a lawyer. I tend to write my sentences very plainly and very subject-verb. I was once accused by a mental health counselor I emailed about a client of being rude. The email I sent her was this:

      “Lucinda,
      Did Fergus attend the session on Tuesday? If not, did he call ahead to let you know he wasn’t attending?
      Thanks,
      Delta Delta”

      I am not kidding. She could have said “yes, Fergus attended on Tuesday” but instead I got back a lengthy diatribe about how this was rude and my communications with her need to be more “planful” and “reflect the sensitive nature of her work” and that my style “made her feel like she was under the hot lights of cross examination with no escape in sight.” Nope nope nope. This was so ridiculous I showed it to everyone I know, and I changed nothing about how I send emails. tl;dr – emails that are to the point are just fine.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        What?! LOL. I would have saved that email for days where I was in the dumps and needed a good laugh. Maybe she needed to be seeing a counselor?

    10. Joielle*

      Put an exclamation point in every email. It helps you come across as friendly and enthusiastic. Even just “Thanks!” or “Hi Janet!” can soften the tone a lot. (Of course, not in an email where you’re giving really bad news or something – just general, normal, everyday communications.)

    11. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I started to write a reply with suggestions on writing back to prickly people, as I have a similar one (who I interact with over email and also video calls, so I get to double dip!) but I was waffling and other people covered that so I deleted it. So –

      There’s a difference between straightforward and rude, as I’m sure you know already. And yet your colleague has complained that you are “rude” (I’m assuming that’s been reported to you semi-verbatim, like “fyi, X complained to me about your reply to their query about the TTP project, they complained that you were rude” – reported by whom? Your manager?) and you already know that they don’t like you “for other reasons”.

      I think the “for other reasons” bit is the key here. Clearly I don’t know what they are but I feel like it’s something a bit more intangible, whereas your “rude” replies to X’s email are somewhat more tangible that they can, for want of a better word, “get you in trouble” over.

      Is this the sort of workplace where people “get in trouble” over things I wonder? I’m thinking this because I thought it was quite interesting that you said you “have not been disciplined because everyone disagrees with your colleague”. In many workplaces, you might well be coached by your manager on responding in a more “fluffy” way (if needed) but I wouldn’t think of this as something that would immediately go to a “being disciplined” process. So it makes me wonder if it’s the sort of place where typically people will be disciplined when someone else makes a complaint about them (I get the sense that you feel you have been ‘spared’ this process only because everyone agrees X is a jerk, but you are still looking to change your behaviour to accommodate X).

      A couple of ways I placate my prickly person:
      – hey John/Jane, what an interesting question! My thoughts are below…
      – (when asked what’s the “right” answer to something) e.g. I’d recommend you do A and B because of reason X, but also you could do it with C and D, and that would be fine as well. (Rather than “A and B.”)

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        Now I almost wish I had two people like this so that I could describe them as the “prickly pair”! But alas (but perhaps hurrah for my sanity) I only have the one. (Be careful what you wish for!)

      2. Fluffernutter*

        You’re correct, my manager mentioned to me that the colleague complained about my rudeness to their shared manager and told me not to worry about it. I just mentioned not getting disciplined in my post because people higher up than me have heard the colleague’s complaints and dismissed them. No issue with company culture. :)

        Reading your theory about my colleague picking on me, that makes total sense but never occurred to me! I personally think they dislike me because I am more experienced than them so I have (gently) corrected them on some things, a manager, should know. But that is not really a problem they can voice, but my email etiquette is.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          It’s sort of interesting in itself that your manager mentioned it to you at all, actually.

          I think it would be more normal for the manager to take X’s feedback with something like “thanks, I’ll follow up with that as needed” .. and then it goes in to a black hole.

          I wonder what your manager was communicating to you with saying “X had this feedback but I dismissed it”? That might be something to be aware from a “political landscape” point of view, actually.

    12. fhqwhgads*

      My standard go to fluff for when I want to say something simple and direct but I know I am dealing with someone who will read it as curt even though there’s no good reason to:
      A) throw in an exclamation point somewhere it’ll make a sentence seem Extra Enthusiastic (make sure it can’t be interpreted as yelling)
      B) a smiley emoji somewhere.

    13. Yada Yada III*

      Well, it’s annoying to try to make nice with this one person … but in emails to them specifically, you could try opening with something unnecessary but friendly, like, “Hope things are going well for you,” “Hope you had a good weekend,” and closing with something unnecessary but friendly, like, “Looking forward to working with you,” “Hope you have a great weekend,” “Happy [Name that Holiday],” etc.

      And, if you’ve had any recent exchange with them re a personal matter that can be mentioned in email, you could also reference that, i.e., “It was great running into you at the play the other night. It’s nice to share an interest in theater with a co-worker.” Or whatev.

      Basically, it’s just a little extra schmoozing/attention. Some people, of course, won’t be happy until you toss in a bunch of exclamation points, but I can’t bring myself to recommend that. ;)

    14. MissDisplaced*

      Good grief! You’d think people would want shorter and to the point emails.
      But some places like the filler. But I would say that you can always add a Thanks!, Thank You, Cheers, or Thanks for your help type of ending. Also, when I ask for something and get it, I do always reply with a short “Thanks!” or “Thx!”
      Mainly I do this because my current company culture is so bad at even responding in anything like a timely manner.

    15. ...*

      It sounds like everyone is totally happy with you except for one (potentially rude?) person so I wouldn’t tailor your communication to the 1 person who doesn’t like you instead of all the people who do. Unless they’re a big boss or something in which case just say Hi! hope you weekend was great! I was wondering if you could please help with this! thanks so much and have a great day!

    16. RagingADHD*

      I agree with others that you shouldn’t have to do this. But if you want to anyway, there’s no reason you can’t.

      It’s not as though there’s some high principle at stake. If throwing a little fluff at this person will reduce friction in your work, hey – fluff is cheap, and life is short.

      IME, people who bristle at emails being too brusque or “rude” like to see feelings words. Not that you have to talk about your actual feelings! But just to salt in words that relate to them.

      -“feel” instead of “think”;
      -“Im happy to” when offering something ;
      -asking their opinion or how they are;
      – “give” instead of “provide”
      -a couple things to thank or appreciate;
      etc. Such as-

      At the top:
      How are you?
      Hope you are well.
      I wanted to check in with you (or touch base with you) about…

      In the middle:
      I’m happy to help with/give an update on x.
      I’m glad you asked about x, let me give some clarification.
      Thank you for your help on y.
      I appreciate you taking the time to do y.

      At the end:

      Please reach out with any questions or feedback.

      Feel free to call me about…

      I’m always happy to get your input, so please let me know…

      Let’s get together to discuss next steps.

      I feel like the project has good momentum,
      I’m looking forward to the next stage.

      Signoff:
      Take care
      Thanks so much
      See you next Thursday
      Have a great weekend

      –Just make sure you phase them in gradually. Don’t add them in everywhere right away, or it will sound like you’re being sarcastic.

  37. Trying hard not to be annoyed*

    How would you all handle this? My office is located on the outskirts of a COVID hotspot. Our numbers are increasing, as are they everywhere. Our city/county has not made masks mandatory. Our office is “encouraging” folks to wear masks, but not making it mandatory. Our receptionist, who greets everyone walking in the front door, from an open air desk, is refusing to consistently and properly wear a mask. She is coughing and blowing her nose frequently. We’ve been asked to cover for her when she’s not at her desk, but do not feel safe doing so. Even OSHA and the CDC recommend not sharing workspaces, equipment etc when possible. We have asked the receptionist to wear the mask correctly and while she’s in the office, but our manager is not enforcing it. She has called COVID a hoax, believes everyone should just get it and “be done with it.” My coworkers and I want to band together. Help us with what we should say. We don’t want to get sick.

    1. Chronic Overthinker*

      If everyone else is wearing masks and it has become company policy, then I would band together with your co-workers and go to the manager together. Policies need to be enforced and insubordination recognized.

      1. Katniss Evergreen*

        Yes this – that’s ridiculous! She should treat this as a requirement of her job now – one that she might not agree with, but one that is just as necessary as showing up on time or answering the phone professionally. I agree with you about sharing spaces – you and any other coworkers that don’t have this job but are asked to cover for the person who is flouting mask policy should speak up, and refuse to cover for this person at her desk if she won’t follow that policy if that’s possible. If you’re forced to do this and your managers are weenies who won’t back you up, I’d honestly think about standing next to the desk and not touching anything, while greeting visitors politely.

      2. Anon Admin*

        The poster said “Our office is “encouraging” folks to wear masks, but not making it mandatory”, so it’s not company policy, at least yet.

        I agree you should all band together and go to the manager as a group and lay out the concerns.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, unfortunately, the coworker can get away with her nonsense because there’s nothing to enforce. A suggestion is not a mandate, so OP and her coworkers will need to lobby with the higher ups at this company to make it one.

    2. Keymaster of Gozer*

      I’d be…..well, very hard pressed to not lose my mind and control of my vocal cords entirely over someone who thinks this virus is a ‘hoax’ or overplayed or what have you.

      Approach it maybe from an optics angle? If people, clients, etc. come into your office to see a receptionist hacking her lungs up and not wearing a mask it’s going to make the company look BAD and they’ll thinking the management haven’t got a working brain cell in their head.

      (Really, how (tirade of profanities redacted) do you have to be to think that people are dying from nothing though?!)

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        Oh but you know, it’s all deaths from other normal things like gunshot wounds and car accidents that are being reported as covid-19 related. There’s not really an increase in numbers at all, the medical staff are all lying to you. /s

    3. Katrinka*

      In addition to these great suggestions, I suggest making your company provide you with disinfecting wipes and sprays. If they are making you share a workspace, it absolutely must be sanitized between users. After all, they don’t want to face the consequences if an employee (or, gods forbid, a client) gets sick there because they refused to take proper precautions, do they?

    4. Trying hard not to be annoyed*

      Thank you all for your responses. Masks are not “mandatory,” our manager won’t do that unless required by law. We have gone to our manager as a group. Manager tells us she will talk to the receptionist, yet nothing changes. We have wipes and hand sanitizer, but they’re hard to come by through our only supplier so we are told to limit use of things like wipes and spray, although I do not and do my best to keep them and hand sanitizer in stock. We have tried playing the optics angle, explaining that both internal and external clients are not going appreciate the lack of concern for others and grossness displayed by the receptionist. We have tried explaining that air movement doesn’t stop at an open doorway or desk counter and particulates from even just speaking go everywhere. We have tried explaining that some of us have high risk family members. We have tried explaining this to the manager and to the receptionist directly and even asking her to wear her mask. She will for a little bit, until we’re not looking or she “gets hot and can’t breathe” and then it’s under her chin, hanging off of an ear or her nose is sticking out. We’ve asked that phones just be transferred to our desk and those that sit near the front door help watch for visitors, but staff that sits up front refuses to help and management favors them and doesn’t make them. I’m so frustrated.

      1. Case of the Mondays*

        You should as a big group say that you all need to work from home since the workplace isn’t safe. Then they have to decide whether to deal with your big group or the one rogue receptionist.

        1. Trying not to be annoyed*

          Group is…small, very small. They denied working from home already, even though we absolutely could do our jobs remotely, only for the favored staff member was an exception made.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Well then, sadly, I think your company has shown you all that they don’t care and there’s not much else you can do than to go to HR and ask about your leave options. Then spend that time looking for another job because your company isn’t going to change. I’m sorry, this is awful.

          2. tangerineRose*

            Can you get the favored staff member to ask if the rest of you can work from home?

            1. Annoyed...*

              Favored employee won’t even forward us an email, let alone ask for anything that would benefit anyone but herself.

    5. Morning reader*

      The desk needs a barrier in front of it or many customers will not be returning. (Maybe no one cares, but people like me are not using businesses that blatantly take no precautions.) As to your question, can you cover reception from another location, for example have calls forwarded from reception to your extension? If you absolutely have to sit at her desk, I suggest investing in a full scale hazmat suit or something similar (paper jumper to go over your clothes, gloves, mask and face shield.)

      1. Trying not to be annoyed*

        I had been having the calls forwarded to my desk, while staff at the front monitored the door. I’m completely okay with that. However, staff watching the door complained about having to do that and the manager has decided that me answering phones from my desk is no longer acceptable. Manager has claimed “customers want to see someone at the front desk”. What’s worse, it’s not just wanting us to cover reception, it’s wanting us to also work on our tasks while we sit up there, so there’s cross contamination even more so. May have to go with your last suggestion. Hoping to have a new job soon…but I live in the hot some, so it’s been slow going.

    6. AngelicGamer, the Visually Impared Peep*

      I’d be putting in a complaint to OSHA and the CDC as well as dropping it in the laps of any and all media. Even more so since you’ve said you’re in a hot zone. The company won’t do anything until required by law? Then it is more than time to get the law involved.

    7. Anono-me*

      If the receptionist doesn’t have to listen to the manager; why do you have to listen to the manager?

      Can you either ignore the manager about working from the front desk like the receptionist is doing with mask wearing or have a private ‘concerned conversation’ about what the damage being done to the manager ‘s authority by the receptionist not wearing a mask after the manager said to

  38. Emma*

    Are there any circumstances when it would be a good idea to accept a counter offer?

    I asked for a promotion and was told to wait 6 months at least. My small team of 2 is important to the org and they know that finding someone else will be more expensive and the person would need time to get up to speed.

    I told my boss today that I have gotten an offer for another position and he wants to take the weekend to discuss with the CEO to make me a counter offer next week. I would prefer to stay but am concerned it would be a bad idea in the long run and they will see me as a flight risk.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, that doesn’t seem like one of those situations where it’s good to accept the counter offer. That actually seems like exactly the situation in which you don’t want to accept a counter offer. The problems you wanted to leave will still be same problems if you stay, and they will indeed see you as a flight risk, and they’ll replace you as soon as is convenient for them.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup, especially if business takes a downturn in the next couple of weeks due to COVID shutdowns – Emma would more than likely be first on the list to let go.

        Take the new offer.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      It all depends on why you’re leaving.

      If it’s just the money, and you’re sure you’ll be happy with that salary in the long run–you may not get anything more than a COLA or even the COLA for years–then staying is a reasonable option.

      If not, and it’s something more–challenge, coworkers, environment, location, etc–then be forthright with your boss and take the offer to start elsewhere. Those aren’t going to change and the money will salve only so long.

    3. BRR*

      This is basically the poster child for situations to not accept one. They had their chance and didn’t take it.

    4. MonteCristo*

      I’m against counter offers in all cases, but to me, this seems an especially bad one, seeing as how they basically had 6 months notice that they needed to step up. Of course that doesn’t mean you don’t listen to it, and they don’t need to know whether you are or are not interested in a counter offer.

      (I’ve already made it very very clear to my organization I’m totally against counter-offers, but most people hold their tongues better than I.)

    5. RagingADHD*

      I did once, and it worked out fine. I hadn’t been looking for a new job, but responded to a recruiter’s cold call when I heard the salary.

      My direct manager wasn’t my org chart manager. I was assigned to his team but he didn’t know or sign off on my salary. When I told him I’d accepted the other offer and was leaving he asked my current salary and was shocked it was so low.

      He raised holy hell and got Corporate to match the offer, so I stayed.

    6. allathian*

      Don’t accept the counteroffer, you’ll be seen as a flight risk.

      Counteroffers can work, though. When my husband and I were dating, we were in a LDR for three years. He negotiated a salary increase and a transfer to my city when he had an offer and they made a counteroffer. But the thing was, he was happy working in that org and wanted to move for personal reasons, and if they had said no to the move, he would have taken the other job.

      1. Emma*

        Just to clarify, I asked for a promotion a month ago, was told to wait at least 6 months, got another offer and told my boss yesterday.

        I would prefer to stay but didnt feel valued when he told me to wait 6 months and the we’d see. His argument was that others needed to be promoted before me (even though we are on separate teams).

    7. Emma*

      Just to clarify, I asked for a promotion a month ago, was told to wait at least 6 months, got another offer and told my boss yesterday.

      I would prefer to stay but didnt feel valued when he told me to wait 6 months and the we’d see. His argument was that others needed to be promoted before me (even though we are on separate teams).

      1. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

        I think that’s different…this was just a month ago, and it’s possible your raise would indeed have arrived in 6 months. If you otherwise love the job and have any reservations about the counter offer, I’d consider taking the counter.

  39. Keymaster of Gozer*

    Would appreciate some advice on what to tell my friend to support her. She’s been told that her employer is still allowing work from home for ‘elderly and infirm and other high risk groups’ but anyone who doesn’t fall into those categories has to return to the office.

    Which would be fine, except that the management are not going to be doing anything special safety-wise for those returning to work. Masks won’t be required, there’s not any rules on distancing or how many people can be in a room at once etc. because they say as long as it’s just healthy people there there’s no danger.

    I’ve suggested she wear a mask and keep as far apart from others as possible but I’d also like to give her some scripts to help deal with any unpleasantness from management who claim she’s paranoid or whatever? (My tactics….wouldn’t work at her place. Such as swearing inventively)

    1. Chronic Overthinker*

      Our office is back to work as usual. The mask policy is “recommended, but not required.” People have been good about social distancing, but not great. I would make sure she has the cleaning supplies she needs to sanitize her equipment and make sure that she follows proper protocols. She can say that she’s following CDC guidelines to reduce the risk of spreading the virus and try to work as normal as possible.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Will pass it on, hopefully that’ll make the ‘you’re just paranoid, nothing will happen to you!’ types back off a bit.

        (I used to work for that firm, and their signal to noise ratio in some managers is…not great. Some produce as much fact as an untuned radio)

        1. WellRed*

          Honestly, for those kind of comments, can she come up with something (polite) that’s along the lines of, “This is for me, why do you care?” or “How does my wearing a mask impact you doing your job?” I mean, let’s face it, they are trying to be divisive and political, but really, it boils down to “stay in your own lane, eyes on your own paper, stop tracking my hours in your spreadsheet, Wanda.”

    2. Nita*

      She’s going to need a thick skin… but better to deal with the unpleasantness than to get sick. So maybe she can practice shrugging and saying, “Hey, it makes me feel safer!” over and over.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        In that firm, being elderly or having a serious underlying health issue.

        (She’s keeping the nuclear option in reserve: pointing out that we’ve both lost people to corona who were perfectly healthy people in their 30s and 40s so this high/low risk thing is total bull anyway)

        1. Kate H*

          What about starting with a mild nuclear option? There are SO MANY resources out there on how this disease does not care if you’re healthy or not. Articles about people’s experiences. How it destroys your lung capacity. Studies that show that even if you’re asymptomatic, it can cause lung damage and no one’s sure yet if that’s permanent.

          Alison answered a question recently about pushing back against coworkers who don’t understand social distancing boundaries. One thing that’s really been resonating with me is (I’m paraphrasing) that this is going to be uncomfortable. We’re going to feel rude, but our actual lives are at stake here. Ask for what you need, be as harsh as you need to be.

          1. Keymaster of Gozer*

            It’s a better idea. I know she feels, rather like I do in a lot of moments, that bringing up the dead as a ‘gotcha’ hurts the memories of our fallen.

            (That btw is our personal feelings, in no way should they be taken as the only ‘right’ way to deal with grief)

            Actual scientific evidence of the whole ‘low risk doesn’t mean safe’ thing *would* be better. I’ll do some research for resources for her.

    4. BethDH*

      “I would feel so terrible if I accidentally got half the office sick and ruined the company if I had it and just had no symptoms!” — said with as much doe-eyed sincerity as possible. The asymptomatic/presymptomatic part is true, but what manager can argue with “I’m doing it for the good of the company”?

  40. Employee Wrongfully and Maliciously Got Me Doxxed*

    I’ve been at my company for over 10 years and I’ve never been in any sort of trouble, always received bonuses, been moved up, etc. Late last year, I hired a fresh out of school employee I’ll call “Jane.” She had the right skills and the right personality for the role. Jane’s work is mediocre, but I have been coaching her and I gave her a mentor who is one of my best performers. Jane takes any kind negative feedback, no matter how kindly it is given, incredibly personally. And, unfortunately, she had to receive some in April due to a massive error that was fortunately caught in time.

    During the protests, someone who looks somewhat like me (I guess if you squint) appeared in some videos being incredibly racist and condemning the BLM movement while wearing an ugly red hat. These videos were posted to a number of sites I don’t use at all.

    I only found out about the video when I was called into HR (via teleconference) and questioned about my activities on a certain date. Fortunately, I was able to prove I was in WebEx meetings all day on that date and then asked why. I was shown the video and I was appalled at what I saw. HR and my manager stood by me, especially when I was able to screen share and show my WebEx logs and the work I was doing that day. Not to mention, I am immuno-compromised and haven’t been anywhere in public since March.

    I figured that would be the end of it, but I kept getting hateful messages through LinkedIn and decided to do a little detective work to find out why I was being named. I made a Twitter account and dug around to find the video. I found it shared and I found where JANE decided to “identify” me as the woman in the videos. Jane tagged our company in the video, linked my LinkedIn profile (the only social media I actually have) and then reposted it with all of this falsely identifying information on her own Twitter feed where it received a lot of attention with the message of “omg I work with a racist!” I know it is Jane because she uses her photo in her Twitter profile.

    In fact, it received so much attention, Jane was able to “promote” herself in the comments where she listed her Instagram that suddenly became popular and a GoFundMe she created to “pay her bills because she’s laid off while she fights injustice.” The GoFundMe was over $20K when I looked at it. By lying about me to get attention, Jane got a nice payout. Also, she is not laid off, so that’s just more lies from her. (These two accounts also prove that it is Jane as they both use her name!)

    Jane knew I wasn’t at the protest. She knew I was on WebEx all day because she was in most of those calls. I am so angry. I am still getting harassing messages on LinkedIn. I fortunately don’t have a Facebook or a Twitter or anything else that can be tied to me. But do I have any recourse here? Should I let it go? What should I say to Jane? I honestly want to confront her about this nonsense because things could’ve gone a lot worse if I hadn’t been able to prove where I was that day.

    1. Oof*

      Oh my gods. I am so sorry for you. Have you shared this with your HR and managers? At the least she should be fired, and I wonder if there is a way to halt the fundraising. I’m so sorry she did this to you.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yes – go to HR immediately with this information. Jane needs to GTFO NOW. What the hell would possess someone to do something like this?! And she has the nerve to use a racial justice movement to enrich herself in the process?! Nah, she needs to be exposed for the fraud she is and lose her job for being a disgusting liar.

        I’d also report her to GoFundMe – she needs to not see a dime of that stolen money. Send them screenshots of everything you found, and I’d even out her on the page (with the receipts) if possible. She needs to be dragged like she tried to get you dragged.

        Despicable.

        2. Nita*

          All of this, and get screenshots of everything, then talk to a lawyer. I hope you have some kind of legal recourse (defamation?) And would someone high up in your company be able to post something official-looking (a link to a letter on company letterhead?) on Jane’s Twitter and GoFundMe pages, and your LinkedIn page, to say that this is all a lie? I don’t know if this is a thing, but unfortunately it may need to become a thing in the age of doxxing.

    2. 7310*

      WTF?
      Report to HR since she mentioned the company and lied about her employment status?
      Report fraud to Go Fund Me?
      Lawyer for Cease and Desist letter?
      I would not speak to her until I had another manager or an HR rep in the room with me.
      Thoroughly annoyed on your behalf.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Definitely REPORT it to Go Fund Me! That’s charity fraud!
        I wouldn’t speak to her, either. Let the company handle this. Maybe they’ll decide to bring you in, maybe not.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        How would fraud charges work here? She already gotten 20k from people. Who handles this, the FBI?

        1. LDF*

          GFM had terms about refunds if a campaign is fraudulent. I assume they take the hit for refunds at first and separately work on getting the money back from the organizer. I’m sure whoever opens a campaign has to check off on TOS that include what this looks like.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, you shouldn’t let it go! And her tagging your employer means it’s completely legit for you to go to HR about it.

    4. Typing On A Phone*

      Unfortunately, you don’t have as solid evidence that this is Jane as you think; one of your other colleagues could have pretended to be Jane.

      You should still report it to HR, but beware of jumping to conclusions. If someone is malicious enough to falsely doxx you, they could also be malicious enough to pin it on a coworker who‘s known to have beef with you.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Yea, as much as it looks like it is what it is, you’re going to want professionals involved (HR, law enforcement, attorneys) so you don’t end up defending libel if Jane does turn out to be innocent.

        1. Katrinka*

          Libel doesn’t apply if LW truly thought it was Jane (she used her real name in some places).

    5. Grbtw*

      I think this is something you should talk to an attorney about. She lied and publicly named you and knew it wasn’t you. Make sure you print out all the proof for your personal records. This could follow you for years if you don’t get her and the websites to remove your name. You could also report the fraud to GoFundMe, she committed a crime.

    6. blackcat*

      Report to GoFundMe, twitter, LinkedIn, and present your evidence to HR. Say “I was really concerned about all of this, and so I did some digging. This is what I found. Accounts that appear to be Janes–or might be someone impersonating her–has been spreading this false information. If it is Jane, she knows that this is not me. If it’s not Jane, I think someone should give her a heads up about this impersonation, given everything I’ve experienced. I don’t feel comfortable approaching her directly because of all of this uncertainty.”

      Basically, I’d lean into the possibility that Jane, like you, has been falsely doxxed. If she has been–that’s a problem! If not…. well, she’s being awful, and you’re within your rights to tell HR.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Yes, this is the best solution. There’s nothing you can do, really (confronting Jane directly would be a bad idea), so the best thing would be to talk to HR, lay it out (as neutrally as possible–definitely don’t go straight to “JANE IS A HORRIBLE THIEF” even if she is! You want HR to view the evidence in a neutral way), and let them handle it. You said they were on your side after the first report, so they’re likely to take it seriously this time as well.

        1. Temperance*

          Oh there’s a LOT that can be done. I think she should compile the evidence, get the GFM cancelled, report the defamatory content to social media (getting her accounts banned – she could literally have gotten OP killed with lies like this), tell HR, tell her own boss, and then talk to Jane’s boss, with the support of her own boss and HR.

          Jane needs to be taken down a peg. A $20k payday for ruining someone’s life?

    7. different seudonym*

      $20k is an extremely unusual GoFundMe payout. It’s also pretty remarkable that OP was able to so thoroughly document that specific date.

      1. WellRed*

        What are you trying to imply?

        “$20k is an extremely unusual GoFundMe payout”
        What’s your source for this? Can you explain this comment?

        “It’s also pretty remarkable that OP was able to so thoroughly document that specific date.”
        No, it’s really not. I’m actually a little bothered by the hoops her company made her go through.

      2. Moonbeam Malone*

        There’s a lot of software/applications we commonly use now that make this kind of documentation extremely easy to pull up. It can feel a bit “big brother,” but pretty much if you’re working from a computer, you’re going to have stuff with timestamps on it. Even if you’re not in scheduled meetings (which OP was! which makes this even easier!) I really can’t emphasize enough how normal it is that OP readily found documentation they were working.

        GoFundMe payouts are all over the place, and honestly any crowdfunding is. There’s no real normal. (Who else remembers that potato salad kickstarter?)

      3. Carbondale*

        I’m surprised about the $20k too. Even if Jane hadn’t been lying, who donates money to someone just for identifying a racist and being laid off?

        1. Katrinka*

          You’d be surprised. If she managed to convince people her company was horrible and protecting a racist and she was fired in retaliation, a lot of people are going to chip in money. Maybe it’s all from friends and family, who knows? The main thing is, report it to GoFundMe, as it is fraudulent (claiming she’s been laid off when she’s not been) and they will shut it down and refund everyone’s money.

        2. Temperance*

          Oh, I’ve seen some shady AF GFMs raise shocking amounts; remember that clearly BS story about the homeless guy giving a woman his last $20 to get gas? It raised $200k, and it was a fraud perpetuated by the homeless man, the woman, and her boyfriend.

          If Jane wrote it up as she lost her job because of actions taken by the “evil racist OP”, and told a sob story about medical costs or something, I can see people getting duped into giving her money.

          (Nonprofits > crowdfunding, always!)

        3. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

          I’ve seen people on Tumblr systematically set up fake GFM with sob stories.

      4. Temperance*

        Uh, not really? If someone said, “what were you doing on Tuesday at 12:00 p.m.”, I could pull up my calendar and show the meetings I attended.

    8. More Coffee Please*

      This is really serious. It sounds like you’re downplaying it, but you have every right to be outraged. It would be bad enough if she was singling you out on social media as a target for hate something you actually did (like giving her reasonable negative feedback). But for something that isn’t even true? My blood is boiling just reading about this!

      Are you Jane’s manager, since you mentioned you hired her? If so, I would absolutely talk to her about this and ask her to remove the tweet. I’m not a manager, and I’m not sure what language to suggest, but at the very least this shows hugely questionable judgement.

      Between the mediocre work, negative response to feedback, and huge lapse in judgment, I don’t think firing her would be crazy if you have that power.

      1. Katrinka*

        No, this is something above a manager, especially because LW is the one who hired her and probably manages her. This is egregious enough behavior that HR is the way to go. The last thing LW wants is to give Jane any reason at all to claim that LW said or did something to her. No conversations at all that can’t be documented (so email, not phone calls) and if they MUST meet in person, have someone else there at all times.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          This. OP needs to loop in HR to keep this as clean as possible while they further investigate.

    9. Mediamaven*

      Let it go? Oh F no. Report that as fraud at minimum. Tell everyone you can including the police. This is beyond.

    10. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you. You can definitely report this to GoFundMe as fraud. And, as other have suggested, go to HR. If it is Janes, and she posted these things knowing you were in the same meetings that day, there is no way she can claim she was “mistaken” about your identity. Best of luck getting this straightened out.

    11. Temperance*

      So, in addition to all of the excellent advice you’ve received here, I’m going to suggest that, if you have the resources, a consult with an attorney would be extremely helpful for you. What Jane has done here is actionable defamation. No need to give that trashbag the benefit of the doubt.

      You absolutely need to talk to HR, your boss, and Jane’s boss. Show them the evidence of what she did.

      You also should shut down the Go Fund Me. It’s very, very easy to end her payday. They have info on their website on how to report fraud, which they take incredibly seriously. No one should profit off of trying to ruin someone else’s life, and she’s blatantly lied. (I’ve reported an abusive parent who was charged with a crime against their child, and who posted a GFM with obscured facts to make it seem like her kids were taken away based on nothing, and that she needed a lawyer. Her kids were removed due to abuse.)

    12. Temperance*

      OH SHIT. I didn’t realize that you’re her boss. She needs to be fired after you take care of the other stuff. Talk to HR, then your boss, and then fire her ass (after you get the defamatory content removed from social media).

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. And I would still take your advice and hire an attorney to sue for defamation (but I’m petty as hell, and no one is going to get away with lying on me).

        1. Temperance*

          Yep. And especially about something as horrible as what OP was falsely accused of here.

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is horrifying.

      Get screenshots of those tweets before you report anything. Tweets get deleted. Get the receipts.

      Otherwise, yes with going to HR, yes to going to a lawyer.

      I do agree that I’d approach it as “Person who appears to be Jane is doing this.” because the comment above that someone this malicious wouldn’t be above impersonating someone else is important to remember.

      This is your reputation someone is slaughtering, that can harm you long term, this is why it’s illegal to slander/liable. Protect yourself, don’t let others destroy you for their own profit and amusement.

    14. What the What*

      I would sue her for defamation. I wouldn’t care if my lawyer cost as much as I could get out of her. My reputation is worth a lot. I would document everything I could and then sue. She profited monetarily by defaming you. Your workplace actually believed her defamatory information and made you prove it wasn’t you. They did not just take your word for it, which means damage was done to your reputation.

      The defamatory information is still publicly available and will be for the foreseeable future, which means it could be found by any future employers. I would sue her and demand compensation, and demand that all defamatory posts are removed.

      If she says it isn’t really her, then great. She will have a vested interest in making sure that GoFundMe returns all fraudulent funds to the donors, and that Twitter/Instagram remove the fraudulent accounts. She can prove it by doing that.

    15. Koala dreams*

      You should definitely do something. You need to bring it up with HR and with go fund me as the other commenters had said, then talk to Jane after that (or maybe there’s someone else to talk with Jane if you can’t?). In my country the laws are very different compared to the US so I don’t have any specific advice, but I think it would be good for you to talk with a lawyer to know your options and the legal situation.

    16. Jack Russell Terrier*

      Start with an attorney because there can be things they take into account which you don’t know. But pursue this to vindication.

  41. Liz Lemon*

    For those of you who are on a rotational office schedule due to COVID-19, working part of the time from home and part of the time from the office– how do you stay organized? How do you maintain a workspace in two different locations?

    We were all mandatory full-time WFH up until a few weeks ago, and now we are allowed to work at the office a few days a week if desired (with social distancing and mask restrictions in place). I really struggled working from home full-time so it has been great to get back into my office. However, it’s a real pain to keep lugging the same files to and from the office. In my position, I tend to need several reference books for my work as well, of which I only have one copy. Is this just what it’s like to be a part-time remote worker? Is there a better system that I’m missing here?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      I have certain tasks that I will only do when in the office because of the access to certain resources and tools. I also find it easier to concentrate when in the office, so tasks that require serious focus are done there. The rest get done at home. If you have the ability to sort your work this way, it can help. I also created a binder of reference materials I use a lot that goes back and forth between the two offices – you may not need the whole book, just the six pages you use regularly. I keep it as small as possible so I am not lugging a lot of stuff.

      And when I need to tote a lot of stuff I use my wheeled carry-on suitcase. Yes, I get teased about going on a trip, but it saves my back!

    2. Violet Newstead*

      I’ve been doing a rotational office schedule since March and am now basically back in the office full time. I also have desks in two different buildings in the office, so three different work spaces. I really struggled with organizing at the beginning.

      I started using Outlook to schedule ‘meetings’ for all the tasks I am doing on each day; everything gets scheduled ~3-4 days in advance. I also have some reference books and documents that I need in both places but for me those books can’t leave the office. So I scan the pages I need for each task and attach them to the ‘meeting’ for that task, so they are easier to find. Anything left on my desk at the end of the day needs post-it notes saying what it is, why it is still incomplete, and what to do next. I do feel like I have to purposely spend more time planning my work than I used to, but it helps me be more productive when at home.

    3. Zephy*

      Are those reference books available digitally, or are you able to digitize the pages you use most often? Or, have you tried asking for a second copy of the reference book?

      I’m thankful that my entire job can be done just about 100% online – between email, DocuSign, and Adobe, nothing needs to be printed out and it can all be done on the computer. I might occasionally have someone bring in a hard copy of a document because they don’t have a way to scan and email it to me, but everything I need to send out I can do digitally. 10/10 would recommend.

    4. Amethystmoon*

      I use file folders and have them arranged by color and with labels. Where I work, they are practically married to their paper. It’s like going back in time to the 90’s. Yes, there are actual cubicles. I have a stress Dogbert toy and a red stapler. But I much prefer the cubicles to an open office plan.

    5. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      I keep everything in my backpack—all papers, calendar, paper etc. So I’m either unpacking the backpack in the morning at work or at home. I use a laptop, so it’s not that hard to just work from a different office.

  42. Not going back to the office*

    This week our office heard unofficially that we will not be back in the office this year due to covid. I like the lack of commute and wfh in general but I miss some of the lunch spots including a kabob shop I found a couple of weeks before covid hit our area.

    Not really a question but I hope other companies are being cautious as well.

    1. Katrinka*

      Can you order carryout from the kabob shop? I don’t know how long the commute is, but maybe you could go pick it up (or do delivery if they’re close enough) once a month or every couple of weeks or so. If they’re open, I’m sure they could use the business. I have also met co-workers for lunch in a parking lot where we all stayed in our cars with the windows down and chatted (OK, more like yelled) back and forth and listened to music. So you could all meet up somewhere near the office and get your own carryout from whatever places you want.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I know if you’re at home you can make your own lunch but if you are missing the lunch spot “experience” (and able to go out) could you investigate what’s available in your own local area?
      A change of scenery and potentially you are helping a local business to recover!

  43. Oof*

    My current place of business has many perks, including shower facilities. This morning I found A mouse in the tub! Who do I complain to, my boss or the owner of the current place of business, myself? :-D Working from home stinks!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Do you have a cat? If so, the cat is undoubtedly in charge and should be complained to.

      1. Typing On A Phone*

        I politely disagree – the cat should only be complained to if mouse was alive. Otherwise, the cat did its job successfully.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          LOL

          My cat coworkers (who are sleeping on the job, as usual) agree with you.

      2. Katrinka*

        But if you have more than one cat, how do you know which one is in charge? My head of security is of the canine variety, but neither cat listens to her.

  44. Kimmy Schmidt*

    For academic folks or others who use a CV –
    Do you include work from grad school? Jobs held, publications, research positions, relevant volunteer work? If you dropped it, how many years into your career did you remove this info?

    1. deesse877*

      I drop things after a decade or the end of a page, whichever comes first. However I also note that big cheeses drop literally nothing, and can have 10+ pages, so I think the convention is governed partially by status.

      That said, I would only include paid, non-university work and/or volunteering if it was obviously relevant.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        One of the CVs I saw recently was FORTY PAGES. I know academia loves to include everything but surely not all of that is completely necessary. Part of the reason why I ask this question.

        1. Imprudence*

          I work for a University and have to produce printed sets of academic CVs for interviews etc. 40 pages is long, but not exceptionally so — and imagine when there are five or more to do. Who on earth reads all of them?

        2. College Career Counselor*

          Back when I was a work-study student, I had occasion to work on the big boss’s CV. Big Boss had every paper, every lecture, address, every conference, every article/publication/presentation, etc. on there. That document was SIXTY-EIGHT pages long.

          Now, nobody ever read that whole freaking thing, but its purpose was to keep track of everything he’d ever done in his professional life. He sent a smaller one (10-15 pages!) to editors, conferences, etc. when he was due to present. But, yeah, holy crap.

          If it’s relevant work in grad school (even if you’re trying for a non-academic position), I’d leave it in. But if you’re going for a non-academic position, bear in mind that it probably should be around two pages, maximum.

    2. Academic Librarian too*

      24 page CV here. I know for a fact that I lost out on a job because I truncated my publication and public speaking history. Unless you are worried about age discrimination, leave it all in. Get rid of positions that have nothing to do with your academic career.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I created one a few years ago (for an academic job search) and was advised to leave it all in. For reference, my work/grad school history is over 20 years and I also cited a few publications from undergrad and my job between undergrad and grad.

      What I was told: resumes are short and sweet and to the point, CVs are more like a full documented history of your career.

      1. Katrinka*

        I was told once that resumes are for employers, to convince them you can do the job. CVs are for clients, to convince them you are well-qualified to conduct their business.

    4. nymitz*

      I’m in government – it’s all in the CV. It works out to about one page per professional year of experience, on average.

  45. Rusty Shackelford*

    Anyone else compelled to figure out how many sick days they took last year after reading one of today’s letters? I can only look up the past year, but I took 53 hours (a little over 6 days, and a pox on those who force their employees to take full or half days rather than use it by the hour). That doesn’t seem high to me, considering that making up time is not an option, so I have to take off for every appointment instead of just working an hour later. Or am I only kidding myself?

    1. Long Time Fed*

      I didn’t take any. I had a fortunate year health-wise, and have flexibility to take an hour or two here and there for appointments because I don’t have set working hours.

      It seems like a week or less of SL use a year is typical for people in my office. No one seems to use much more than that, though I don’t really pay attention.

    2. Picard*

      I used 29 sick hours last year but I have a kid and I have elderly/infirm parents so 90% of that time was for stuff with them. I think I personally took one, maybe two sick days. We do have flex time though so appointments etc dont typically count.

    3. Annie Moose*

      I apparently took 60 hours last year! That seems like more than I expected, although I’ve got a pretty flexible job so taking a day off here and there is no big deal. (it also includes some medical appointments)

    4. Third or Nothing!*

      I know exactly how many sick days I took, because I max out my allotment of 10 every year thanks to my chronic illness. The rest of the time I just power through the pain. Good times.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      That letter got me thinking as well. I want to say I took 4 or 5 last year and I’m pretty sure the mix was 1 or 2 days of actually being sick and the rest were mental health reset days.

    6. blepkitty*

      No, but it makes me very anxious! Between mental illness and seriously awful menstrual cramps and fatigue (that I need to see a doctor for, but I’m already out so much for mental health appointments that it’s hard to add another thing to the list), I use over a day a month.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve taken three sick days in .. well, my sixth anniversary will be the 28th of this month. But I generally am in excellent health, and I’ve worked from home the whole six years so even if I’m sneezy and such, I’m not bothering or infecting anybody. The three days were when I got a nasty digestive bug from dodgy airport food on the way home from a vacation and literally spent those three days on the floor of my bathroom. :P

      My org does one-bucket PTO, so between that and working remote, my personal bar for calling in is pretty high, it pretty much requires that I literally cannot bring myself to sit upright in my chair – but that’s my own preference, not something I’ve picked up from my employer.

      1. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

        My “sick days” last year were actually when I interviewed for my current job. My former employer was super nosy so unless you said you had an ailment, you would get cross examined about just taking a personal day. I hated lying…so glad I escaped!

    8. Lucette Kensack*

      I wish I had separate sick and vacation days! I have no idea how many sick days I took last year, since they’re all lumped together. I AM grateful that my organization is very flexible about working from home, so most days that I was sick I was able to work from home at partial productivity and take a half day of PTO instead of burning a whole day.

    9. Retail not Retailns*

      The definition of sick days had me boggling – so even when unemployed if you would have called in to work for illness, that counts!

      This year, I’m not even gonna try to count by their metric. I’ve done a stint of workers comp absences and during our closure, we all took random days off that were paid but not from our PTO.

      1. Katrinka*

        I wouldn’t count WC absences, that’s not using any of your PTO and it’s for a specific, work-related incident.

        1. Retail not Retail*

          I wouldn’t either! But the Brits in the thread were talking about confirming absences and all sorts of hoops!

          Plus if you’re after sick time you probably want to know WC rates. Just how clumsy is this person?

    10. emmelemm*

      I don’t even have any idea because I work for a small company where we have “unlimited” sick/vacation time that’s not tracked, so I don’t remember. I mean, I know it was a few… probably 4 or 5?

    11. Lolly and the Adverbs*

      I’m the only admin in the office currently. The other person that works with me isn’t expected back until the end of the month (still furloughed).
      I want to take a few personal days (4th of July weekend was just not long enough).
      I feel like I’d be leaving people in the lurch by not having any other admins in the office. (The company is old fashioned in the sense that admins do all of the typing, answering phones, emails, filing, etc.) Of course, things are so slow that this is almost an unfair personal guilt trip.
      Most of the other coworkers who are back have only taken off for a few hours here and there. They are not the type who usually take personal days. They save up their leave and use it for big vacations (although I doubt with the current climate too many people will be traveling like that right now).
      Is it weird or wrong to want to take off when we were furloughed for 8 weeks and have only been working again for 7 weeks?

    12. TiffIf*

      I have a single bucket PTO bank for both vacation and sick leave…and I get something like 136 hours of PTO each year and I can only carry over 40 to the next year…and I so don’t remember what days I called in sick vs had scheduled ahead of time to take a day off.

    13. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’m in the UK and the HR system at my current company (as well as similar HR systems I’ve used in the past, at previous employers) has this information readily available as it’s logged in a similar way to how vacation is.

      Here it’s standard for companies to start an official process on the 3rd “instance” (where an instance is one day or more, of a specific occurrence) of taking sick time within a rolling 12 months. For example if I took a sick day 9 months ago due to food poisoning, two days 5 months ago due to a heavy cold/flu symptoms … then today I call in sick with “whatever it is” it would trigger the “3 absences in 12 months” rule. We also heavily use the “Bradford Factor” (don’t want to add a link here as posts with links seem to go into a black hole, but it’s easily googable) to determine an “acceptable” level of sickness, and it is heavily weighted towards number of instances (even if they are short term) having more weight.

      6 days in a year in the UK would be perceived as more than standard, although I understand that the actual mathematical average is higher, mostly due to long-term sickness.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        I didn’t finish the thought, sorry. The “process” that would be triggered by the 3rd instance of calling in sick wouldn’t necessarily be an official “escalation” process, although it could be. It would result initially in having to sit down with a HR rep and/or your own manager to discuss why the number of sicknesses, are they related, is there anything the company can do to support you (or flush out any “systematic” issue like always calling in with a hangover on a Friday as someone mentioned in a comment on one of the other posts!) … if not adequately explained – which requires disclosure of a lot of health info in my opinion – and it persists, then it will become a thing where you could be given a “final notice to improve your attendance” or ultimately be dismissed…

      2. Rainbow Brite*

        I moved to the UK about a year ago and was shocked to read that in my HR paperwork. I work for the council, and I’m curious if you do, too, or if this is also standard in private companies.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          I’ve always worked in the private sector and it’s been true for all the places I’ve worked as well as anecdotally true with many other people I talk to. This is an extremely common thing in companies.

          The public sector has a bit of a reputation, as I expect you will have experienced by now!, of everyone always being off sick, not doing any work, using up their full quota of 8 weeks sick leave per year or whatever it is… It isn’t true, but is a “trope” that’s been around for a long time. Maybe it used to be true more than now, I’m not sure about that.

          For example one of the people I’m working with on a current project, their spouse works in the public sector (not a Council, but another government-type organisation) and has had an unfortunate run of events this year in regard to sickness. The org have made allowances for a disability (in that time off related to the disability isn’t counted against them so to speak) as required by law, but the spouse’s other “intermittent” time off (with things like heavy colds that are unrelated to the disability) are being held against them. My project-mate says their spouse has already been called in and put on a “final warning” type of thing and is liable to be dismissed if they take another instance of (not related to the disability) sickness, even if it’s about the pandemic!

          1. Rainbow Brite*

            It’s the opposite in my specific sector of the council, actually (teaching) – there’s not nearly enough supply to go around, so people tend not to take time off unless things are pretty dire. Though, perhaps not unrelatedly, I have noticed a seemingly very high instance of people out long-term/indefinitely on stress leave.

            Interesting to know that sick leave policies seem to be the same across sectors, thanks!

    15. allathian*

      I have absolutely no idea how much sick leave I’ve taken in the last few years. I guess I could log on to our HR system and check my own info… We have flexi hours and I use those for things like doctor’s appointments. Sick leave is only when I’m actually too sick to work.

    16. Middle Manager*

      Six doesn’t seem excessive at all to me. I can only look at my total for the duration of my employment. It averages out to 9/year. But that’s a little misleading because I took a full month off several years ago for a serious medical issue, so probably closer to 4-5 year for me. I do have the advantage of some flex time though, so that doesn’t count most doctors appointments, those I tend to just start early/leave early for.

  46. agnes*

    I am so fatigued! I have my job, then the extra work that covid precautions and monitoring require in order to do my job, , then the job I have to do because other people aren’t in the workplace and can’t perform those “in person” functions. I go into the office occasionally to take care of my own “in person” work needs and it seems that I get hit up every time I am there to take care of other people’s “in person” work needs. Others are out due to high risk or no childcare and I understand that. I just wish people would say thank you sometimes and also understand that there are things falling through the cracks with remote work and those of us who are sometimes present in the office are shouldering extra work–at times a lot of extra work too. . Argh, thank you for letting me vent.

    1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I hear you Agnes! I’ve had similar experiences and truly, saying ‘please’ or ‘thank you’ or someone taking the time to acknowledge that you helped them makes such a difference.

    2. Lucy P*

      Yes, appreciation would be nice.
      My counterpart is not back. It’s not that busy, but when it does get busy is can be horrendous. I’m also doing the stuff that I’ve recently discovered my counterpart failed to do while they were here.
      We’re so small that we’re not taking the precautions that larger companies would. When temperature taking was suggested, I immediately shot down the idea because I knew it would be me standing at the door with the thermometer.

    3. WellRed*

      Learn to say no. If you weren’t in the office, it would get done some other way or not. Unless you are required to announce yourself, maybe do stealth office visits.

  47. Potatoes gonna potate*

    This might seem like a silly question and I know it’s not a big deal, and the answer seems painfully obvious to me but Im having doubts so…asking here. 

    If I’m no longer an employee of a company, do I still have the right to be able to go in to the office and collect my personal items? There’s been a lack of communication so far and its perplexing me.  

    On 3/15 I was loaned a laptop from the company to use to work from home. I would have to sign a waiver and if I decided to keep it, pay a fee. The HR person who gave it to me explained all this verbally but she never gave me the paperwork to sign. On 3/31 I was let go, and I had asked HR at that time if I could come by in April or May and get my stuff and drop off the laptop. She said don’t worry about all that, we’ll figure it out. I asked both questions again in late April and late-May, no response. 
    A few days ago, my former boss reached out to ask if I can return the company laptop and that keeping it wasn’t an option even if I paid for it, so I made an appt to go back to the office this weekend to return it. I emailed the controller and ex manager to confirm when I will be there and if I can pick up my personal items from my desk. An employee is scheduled to be there for the drop off and there’s cameras everywhere. This was 5 days ago, I asked twice and still no response. 

    I know current employees have gone in to collect packages so people are going in, just not working. I figured if it’s my own personal items,  it should be alright to get those items. But….I’m also not an employee so I’m confused if I need permission to touch company property (aka the desk)? If I had been let go under normal circumstances, I would’ve been allowed to take my things home so I’m not sure how this would be different. Am I overthinking this? I just really want my personal items but the fact that I’ve asked 5 times and gotten NO answer is — 

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Those items are still your personal items; they’ll typically either mail them to you or allow you to pick them up in person. If you haven’t heard back re: the laptop drop-off, you can probably just ask the person who is at the door if you can go inside and get your stuff. Wear a mask, etc. /someone/ has to get your stuff off that desk for the next person. It may as well be you!

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Sorry I should have mentioned — I called on Wednesday and I tried once in May, no response both times. Im trying to be mindful as I know WFH isn’t easy.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Well, you can’t really avoid touching a desk if your stuff is on it and you’re going to get your stuff. If they let you into the building, you have permission to be there, that’s all that matters.

      Just show up at the appointed time, have a box with you, hand off the laptop, and ask to collect your things. If they say they can’t let you in, then ask when they will send your stuff. Have a list with you– you might want it anyway so you don’t forget anything.

    4. MoonRider*

      I may be in the minority, but I say you should absolutely *not* go there without confirmation that someone approved will be on-site to accept the laptop and to provide access to your former desk/work area. I understand that the pandemic, layoffs, and general stress has everything a little up in the air, but I wouldn’t release that laptop until I had access to my own stuff, and I would not want anyone handling my personal items at all. (They can clean the desk a lot more easily than you can clean the mix of things you may have left there.)

      And when you go … carry at least one good sized box and a couple of totes! It’s quite easy to not realize how much stuff you have in your old office and/or to miss items if rushing or trying to jam things into a small box. After one layoff, I was accompanied to my office to pack up my personal items, failed to look in all the cabinets, and left behind a fan, an umbrella, and two bottles of wine! Luckily a friend was able to nab it all for me, but the whole experience was made even more upsetting by confusion over personal items.

    5. possum whisperer*

      If they wont let you get your things,then they shouldnt get a laptop they seem to need so much.

  48. TexNH*

    I’m from Texas, but I recently moved up to New England for a travel nurse assignment. Shortly after moving up here, a nonprofit I volunteered at back in Texas (and that had been trying to hire me) offered me a job doing telehealth. Aside from this non-profit being my dream job, this turned out to be a major relief, as I had health issues (NOT Covid) which prevented me from completing my travel assignment at the frankly terrible hospital I was placed at.

    This non-profit is adjusting to telemedicine, I’m trying to adjust to my first wfh role at a new job. Also, this program I was hired on to is one the company didn’t have prior to this, so it’s not like there’s any clearly established protocols. Even when I ask specific questions and try to seek clarity, I feel like we are just winging it. I feel like Everytime I turn around, there’s something I didn’t know but should have known (example, weekly online clinic meetings that occur before the general staff meetings that I didn’t know about until several weeks into my role. They were expecting me to attend these, and, as a result, I missed out on info that is passed along at these meetings).

    I feel like I’m at the end of my rope as far as communicating with the rest of the team goes. Part of this may be because I have autism, and the job has no written job description or list of duties, so kind of feels like I’m collecting jobs at the last minute. But I’m frustrated, since this was a dream job, and I believe in the nonprofit’s cause. Just need help to work effectively.

    1. Katrinka*

      Do you think it would help if you wrote all these things down? Email this to the person in charge of the program and/or your manager as “things I need to know for this job” and then ask them if there’s anything else they can think of. They absolutely should have trained you and given you a list of things they expected you to be doing, they dropped the ball big time. If they can’t come up with anything else to add to the list, hang onto the email conversation in case anything else comes to light down the road.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That sounds rough, I’m sorry :/

      If thus helps at all, you feel like you and the team are winging it because you all are winging it. That’s pretty standard for a new initiative/program and even more so for a new hire. Try to focus on what’s getting better. For example, you now know about the weekly online clinic meetings, so that should help you stay up to speed.

      If you’re looking for advice, a few suggestions:
      -Start a list of your responsibilities, to build your own job description. Include what you want to do (you said this was a role you were excited for) and maybe share with your manager when you feel it’s ready, to see if it can be your official job description.
      -Use that list to also build an on-boarding packet. It’s not your responsibility, but it might give you more of a sense of agency and will help anyone who joins later. Plus, it’s an accomplishment to tout during reviews or future job applications.

      Good luck!

    3. Ronda*

      my sister is in kind of a similar situation, she moved into a new role and then the entire department except her left. Nobody to train her on what to do and they keep handing her job off to different managers….

      So the advice I give her is to do what she can. Document what she is doing and give her boss periodic status reports…. ie reviewed x client files, sent out y requests to doctors, recieved z responses back. (whatever measures make sense for her role)
      She should decide what she is going to do (you can base this on the job description from job listing), tell her manager what she is doing and ask if they would rather she was spending her time in a different way (and adjust things to managements priorities as needed)

      set-up a regular check-in with manager to review your status, ask about anything that has come up and see if there are other things she wants from you. I tend to like a weekly 30min meeting, but it depends on your workflow / deadlines.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Everyone is just working things out with telemedicine (and things being disrupted in general), and “winging it”, in your situation, it sounds like. The non-profit. You. Your manager. Your patients/service users. Etc.

      And as such, it’s ok to not have your process already set up and running like a well-oiled machine; to not have a smoothly-worked-out way of dealing with everything.

      You feel like (collective-you) you are “just winging it” because you are, to a large extent. No one has dealt with this pandemic already (obviously) and has the “gospel”, “if this then that” answer to deal with it! You could say we are all winging it, making it up as we go along, or perhaps just “finding new ways to operate”. Even on the government level (I’m in the UK, but I expect it applies to your government wherever you are as well), they are constantly changing and responding to the newest information — and I find people get frustrated that “the government doesnt have the answers”, but none of us do!

      As an example… I called the vets office yesterday with a view to taking in one of my cats who has needed teeth extractions for a few months (I would have taken her in before but it was when the pandemic hit and they shut for all except genuine emergencies). I spoke to someone and asked a question, she said it was her first day back in the office so she wasn’t 100% sure so she would have to go off and check the answer.. then I was on hold for 10 minutes, and I was fine about it (as the vast majority of their customers will be) because I understand that they are adjusting to a new set of rules and procedures, and they don’t have all the information off the top of their head.

      I don’t have autism myself but I’m close to a number of people who do, and there are as many experiences of being autistic as there are people with autism, as you will know, but I’ve found that a theme that comes up frequently is being blindsided by unexpected situations and feeling unable to adjust/adapt in the moment, because although you/they (people with autism) likely have developed and reflected on a lot of situations and how to deal with them intellectually, then something comes up that is outside what you could have prepared for! In fact I feel that way myself even as a “neurotypical” person, in relation to a lot of what’s going on with the pandemic.

      Why do you feel that you “should have known” about the weekly online clinic meetings, when you didn’t find out about them until a few weeks later? The obligation here should be on your manager (or whoever coordinates these meetings) to clue you in so that you know to attend at that time.

      Do you have a specific manager you report to (I don’t know how the healthcare community works really, so maybe this could be a more senior nurse or perhaps a “administrator” type?) who you could discuss this with?
      I think it would be worthwhile talking to them about how you feel at the end of your rope with communications, and particularly you could be specific about what problems you see and (ideally, if you can think of them) suggestions for how it could be improved.
      Probably the manager is themselves “winging it” as much as you are, but the manager is likely to have more resources/options to put into resolving it.

      I can totally understand the impulse to “seek clarity” on things. You want a definitive answer, or at least a framework to work within! I do understand how you feel (also for reasons other than anything I stated here).

  49. FruitCake*

    Morality question!

    I’m getting into a particular area of the arts, and there’s a wonderful opportunity for early-career professionals from under-represented groups. It would offer incredibly valuable career support – real break-through stuff.

    However, the application form assumes that people from under-represented groups are also financially disadvantaged. As it happens, I’m not at all financially disadvantaged, although the majority of people with my disability are.

    A) I think I’m still entitled to apply for the opportunity – what do others think?

    B) I just don’t know what to write in the finances section of the application. Do I explain I’m fortunate enough to have a (part-time) job that I intend to continue in? I’m actually very proud of having a fairly senior, reasonably prestigious job, and I know it’s been a mixture of luck, hard work and talent, and the grace of others that has allowed me to flourish so far.

    1. TexNH*

      You can apply, as you meet the requirements. Just be honest in the financial section and let them decide whether to select you or not. Good luck!

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is the organization offering this support because people are under-represented, or because they are financially disadvantaged?

      1. FruitCake*

        They aren’t clear – I had assumed it was to bring in new voices from underrepresented groups, which was why I was thrown by the financial question, which asks for nearly as much detail as the question about your actual practice in the arts.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Well, if the info you provide doesn’t give the wrong impression about your financial situation (i.e., if they only ask how much you earn as an artist, and don’t ask about other income or support), fill it out truthfully and let them decide. But if the application materials don’t make it clear that this is for needy artists, that may not be as important as it looks. Maybe they just want to know which way to go if all other things are equal.

    3. Annony*

      What types of questions are they asking in the finances section? I would answer them truthfully and see what happens.

      1. FruitCake*

        The financial question is quite vague / badly worded – i think on reflection they may have re-used it from elsewhere, as you literally can’t buy this opportunity, so no-one could legitimately say ‘yes, I can afford to buy it if I didn’t get the award.’ That’s maybe why I’m so confused.

    4. Katrinka*

      Perhaps there are two different purposes here. One is to give this opportunity to under-represented people and the other is to provide financial assistance if they need it (think of it like college – admissions is separate from financial aid).

    5. Moonbeam Malone*

      Apply! I’m worming my way into a creative field that sometimes has these kinds of opportunities. Financial situation is only one little part of the puzzle, and they’re likely trying to draw in candidates with diverse voices/perspectives. As others have said, just be honest!

    6. RagingADHD*

      You’re entitled to apply. Applying is not a guarantee you will get it. And it doesn’t stop anyone else from applying.

      They will determine if you’re entitled to receive the grant.

      Answer everything accurately and let them do their job.

    7. FruitCake*

      Thanks everyone – I’ll apply, try to be accurate in answering their vague finance questions, and hope for the best.

  50. TL -*

    I maintain our department’s website and have been trying to update the job postings list since February, but haven’t been able to get a list of closed/inactive jobs from HR, despite sending several emails and getting a promised delivery date (that flew by with no word from them.)

    This week, after yet another follow up email, I finally got a response – they forwarded me a list of active job postings (from, I presume, the main HR department) and told me to remove anything from the website that wasn’t on the list.

    I apparently have no figs left to give, and I responded asking for a list of job postings to remove. (Normally, I would soften that email with a reason or an apology if there was an misunderstanding but I didn’t even try this time.)

    I keep on hearing HR say how busy and overworked they are, and I like the people there, but things like this keep on happening and it is so hard to find my sympathy. To make it worse, I know they’re about the same size as other HR departments for similarly sized or larger departments! I can’t see their workload, nor do I have the knowledge to judge if it’s reasonable or not, so I’m trying really hard not to, but it is a struggle on days like today. It’s made worse by the fact that they’re polite but demanding when asking something of me (sending emails marked urgent with routine to-do items, for instance.)

    Anyone have any advice for cultivating sympathy when I’m all out of figs? This isn’t worth going to my boss over yet – I’ll drop a light hint if necessary but no more. I come from a very favor-dependent work culture, so this is really rubbing me the wrong way, and my boss really values “everyone pitch in teamwork” so I’d like to find a way to be able to put in a minimal good-faith effort with it grating quite as much as it currently does.

    2. Katrinka*

      I’m trying to figure out your question here. You want to update job postings and they’ve told you to remove anything that’s not on the list they gave you. Why do you need a specific list of what they want removed instead?

      1. TL -*

        Because it is not my job to cross-check against the list (our job postings are months, potentially years of out date). It’ll take me significantly more time to cross-check a list than it will to just have a list of job postings to be removed – time I really don’t have and am not willing to give to them anyways.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Do they know that? I mean did you tell them personally or are you just assuming they know?

          IF they know that perhaps it is time for your boss to talk to their boss to figure out the most efficient way for everyone to do this?

      2. fhqwhgads*

        This is a guess, but I would expect the “remove” list to potentially be smaller than the “keep” list. Plus it’s generally easier to search for the specific stuff on the list and then remove those things, rather than go through everything on the keep list comparing each entry “is this not there?” in order to know to remove it.

      3. Environmental Compliance*

        I am also confused on this as well. They may not have a list of what’s currently up there to even begin to make a list of what they *don’t* need, but do have a list of what they *do* need.

        Feels like a BEC moment here, tbh.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      (Assuming you create the listings in the first place based on emails from HR)…

      Delete all the postings. Create a new list of postings based on what HR sent. Job done!

      If you are maintaining a separate “departmental” list of job postings that’s orthogonal to the official overall HR one I’d suggest you retire that and redirect your departmental job listing page to the overall HR one (with a pre-defined filter if possible/relevant).

  51. Henrietta Gondorf*

    A request for resources, please! In my job, I do a lot of editing of other people’s writing. I feel proficient at this, but I would really like to develop my skills. Any recommendations for resources, courses, articles, etc. that talk about how to be a better editor when you’re looking at colleagues’ work?

  52. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How do you guys get other people to move software? I’ve been using Google duo for my therapy sessions but it doesn’t have screen share. How can I get everyone moved over to a new platform with screenshare? I have no authority over these people, but I need to do more impact full sessions with their children.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      These people need something from you, right? Can you tell them you’re only able to provide what they need if they use the new platform?

    2. Annie Moose*

      “Hi! We’ve encountered a lot of technical limitations with Google Duo, so I’ll be transitioning to using Software X on Date. Here are instructions on how to download, set it up, and use it. Looking forward to seeing you at your next appointment on Date.”

      (Assuming you have control over what software you use, of course, and you aren’t restricted by your employer. If you are restricted by your employer, then I would suggest writing up an analysis of why Google Duo isn’t fitting your needs and what software you’re proposing instead (and why it would work better without having downsides like security flaws), then presenting that to whoever is in charge of that decision)

      1. Katrinka*

        This is exactly what my kids’ therapists did. They said what programs they’re using and provided links (they do not require downloading anything, just registering on the site the first time). They each use a different program and it’s no big deal. If you explain that the new program will make it easier for THEM, you should be fine. The only thing I would add is something about how they should contact your office if they do not have the technology or are unable to connect for some other reason.

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        That sounds good. I’m not sure about a lot of the IT stuff on the other end though, so I’m worried about that getting set up and sessions going smoothly.

    3. Waiting to be Future Endeavored*

      Is Google Duo HIPAA compliant? If it’s not, then that would be a reason to switch. I’ve met with two different providers who use doxy.me — although I’m not sure about screen sharing capabilities.

  53. Grbtw*

    So, I put in my notice at work and I feel terrible. I’m not moving on to a new job, I’m recouperating from some stress related health problems, I just can’t be in an office during Covid. I feel so bad about only giving 2 weeks, but my physical health collapsed in a scary way and every day at work, I get scary mystery pains. I’m very lucky to not need to work due to my husband’s recession proof job, but I can’t stop feeling like I’m hurting others. I know there’s some toxic stuff there, does anyone have advice on how to do what’s best for my family without feeling like I screwed over my office? I just want some peace, my health depends on it.

    1. I edit everything*

      You were in a business arrangement, trading labor for pay. The arrangement did not include sacrificing your health for the company. As Alison has said many times, people leave jobs all the time. It’s part of the system. They expect it to happen and have procedures in place to deal with it.

      And if you’re not healthy, you’re not fulfilling your side of the work-for-pay arrangement anyway. Take care of you, and return to work when you’re your whole self again. The office will be just fine.

    2. Emma*

      I always remind myself that if my company were to decide that I or my job were not working out for them, they would let me go. That would be a sensible decision on their part (even if I would not like it) as we have a business relationship. Similarly, if the job or company is not working out for me, I should make the decision that works best for me.
      I would add that, if you have left for health reasons, there is also a risk that if you stayed you would have reached a crisis point and left suddenly. By recognising the challenges you were facing, and making this decision, you have been able to give your office two weeks notice so you can both manage your departure.
      I hope everything works out well for you.

    3. Ronda*

      2 weeks is the normal thing…. you are doing the right thing.

      If you would like to…. you might offer to work remotely and/or part-time if that is a possibility for you and you think it might make things easier for your office. Then if they don’t want that help…. that is on them.

    4. Mill Miker*

      I did something similar a couple of years ago. I technically left to freelance, but it was mostly I just needed to be a way from the stress of it all, and I didn’t really pursue any clients for a month or so.

      I was “critical” to several key processes, the go-to person for most emergencies, responsible for training and coaching and keeping all the automations running smoothly. I worried about work stuff constantly, and worried every day that my leaving was going to cause nothing but trouble for others.

      Every day, that is, until I actually left. Once I was out of there and wasn’t exposed to the daily chaos, and knew I was never going back to it, I just… it didn’t matter. All that was somebody else’s problem, and all those people were themselves adults being paid to deal with those problems, and perfectly capable of handling them or deciding to leave or pushing back or doing whatever they felt was appropriate to manage their needs (and if they weren’t? Also not my problem!).

      No more pressure from your “superiors”, because they aren’t – they’re just acquaintances now. So much of the toxicity of a workplace relies on the power structures that just don’t exist when you’re gone. You’re not failing to meet your obligations, because you have none. You’re gone, you’re free. If someone asks for something, they’re asking for a big favour, and you can treat it as such, or even ignore it entirely! (It’s just another unsolicited contact from some company you don’t work for).

      The build-up to the last day is stressful, but it’s not an indicator of how you’ll feel on the other side.

      1. Grbtw*

        Wow, thank you! I do need to rest, I’ve been pushing myself for years now with work, school, family, and medical issues. Even though work is, in my mind, my last priority, it always becomes the first. I need to separate myself from toxicity for a while and recallibrate.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Feel the feeling?

      It’s pretty normal to have a bunch of feelings all running at the same time. So you may find underlying feelings regarding other things going on also.

      This may sound stupid- but trying saying out in to the air- “Yes, this is true, I feel like have have screwed over my office. I feel really crappy about leaving my job.” Say it a few times.

      Right. And then NOTHING happens. But wait. You dragged that feeling out into the light of day, you acknowledge the existence of this feeling…..often times our feelings lose their strangle hold on us when we acknowledge the feeling exists. Pushing it under a rock only makes the feeling get larger, not smaller.

      See, you can safely say this out loud because you are not going to change your plans. You gotta take care of you first and foremost.

      Good people worry about their job and their cohorts. This is what good people do. So technically speaking you are doing as good people do. But right now you have an issue that takes precedence over work and cohorts. It sounds like a different time you will be able to work again? If so, then you have that to look forward to.
      If you are not able to return to work ever or perhaps it will be a long time, then this is a time period where you will be reclaiming some quality to your life. And as you are so aware right now, quality of life is super-super important. Either way, you are not walking off the edge of a flat planet here. You are going towards more important goals.

  54. I edit everything*

    Any tips for defeating procrastination? My current editing project is a badly written book with lots of issues on every level, and it’s just sooo draining. It’s hard to stick with it long enough to get into the zone and make real progress. I’ve already pushed back with the publisher about this author’s quality, but they want me to continue, so writing back and saying, “Guys, this really isn’t working out,” isn’t an option.

    I’ve been doing the “work for 40 minutes then take a break” thing, but the breaks last longer than the work periods. I’m definitely in avoidance mode, and need to get over it if I’m ever going to get this thing done. Help!

    1. The Green Lawintern*

      You could try a pomodoro timer app like Tide or Forest so there’s more tangible rewards for concentrating? Or maybe shorter periods like twenty minutes so you have less time to zone out, and it feels more like crunch time. Another thing you could try is switching up where you work, as a sort of mental reset.

      (I say as I procrastinate on my own work…)

    2. Little Miss Cranky Pants*

      Eat the frog first thing. :) This means do the shitwork you’ve been avoiding the very first thing when you start work, put in whatever number of hours you’re going to do that day, and just eat the frog. Once you’ve done your time/hours/tasks for the day, you’re done and you can let it go ’til the next day.

      I’m an editor too, and there are projects that are just effing grueling. For me, dividing up the number of pages per day works well. If it’s, say, 300 pages and due in 30 days, then I know I have to get in at least ten pages a day. Usually, I’ll go beyond that, and sometimes that’s an easy way to fool yourself into working through it.

      Just eat the frog. :)

      1. Sherm*

        Ha — a coworker from Iran had told me there’s an Iranian saying of “swallow the frog in the morning.” I do think about that from time to time. Once, a high-maintenance higher-up wanted to me to stop by sometime that day. I told myself to “swallow the frog” and get it over with, so I met with him right away.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        For me, dividing up the number of pages per day works well. If it’s, say, 300 pages and due in 30 days, then I know I have to get in at least ten pages a day.

        This is what I do. I also try to do the most boring work midday (I can’t edit effectively first thing in the morning since my brain hasn’t turned all the way on) so that I can have my afternoons free to go on and do something else more appealing. Editing poorly written work is a chore, so I sympathize.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Rather than a specific time period can you break it down into a specific number of pages/words to work on in a specific time period and then hold yourself accountable to that?

      For example 9-10am: I will edit page 5-7 inclusive.

      I work with programming code, not words, so I don’t have direct experience but I do do the “from 9-10am I will rewrite section X of this code” sort of thing.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Are you getting enough sleep?

      I find that I can stick to things better if I have some rest under my belt. But if I am tired, I do more like what you are talking about here.

      Do you put things in clusters or sections and then reward yourself on completion of the section/cluster? I gotta say, it’s watermelon season. Just the thought of having a couple pieces of watermelon after finishing a bit of work, gets me right on that task. I love watermelon that much. In the fall, its fresh crop apples that are my favs.

      For harder tasks, I combine more rest with small rewards. Yes, I bribe me. It helps.

      1. Taniwha Girl*

        I do this too. Break it down into small tasks with small food-based rewards. It’s really effective at getting the lizard brain to move!

    5. Koala dreams*

      For me, I find it’s easier to get started with the easy things first. It’s also easier with smaller tasks. That way the first step of a difficult task can be the easiest to start with.

      As for giving yourself rewards, I find many rewards work better before than after. Take a walk or a cup of tea before you start a task. Eat candy before doing something physically tiring. Watch your favourite TV show at breakfast. That way you already had your treat and can focus on work. It sounds weird but sometimes it works.

    6. Kate H*

      I used to work in proofreading and the struggle is real. Break the work down into manageable chunks. Figure out how many pages you have to edit a day to make the deadline. Sit down, edit that many pages, then stop.

      If you can turn off the part of your brain that reads for enjoyment, do it. Check out. Focus only on doing what you can with the material that you’ve been given.

      Motivate yourself a bit at a time. Some people find sprints helpful. Set a timer, work for that amount of time, and then take a break. If you’re struggling to come back to work after a break, set a timer again. Go back to work when it’s done. Or…don’t take a break. Work for twenty minutes, take a breath, work for another twenty minutes. If time doesn’t work for you, use whatever count makes sense for you. Pages. Scenes. Chapters. Anything that breaks it down into something that doesn’t feel as daunting.

  55. dorothyparker*

    So our employer has BOMBED our layoffs/furloughs.

    Back when this kicked off, we were in an okay financial position and so the messaging at first was, “Don’t worry!” Then the leadership got quiet and wouldn’t answer any questions about layoffs during all staff meetings. Then, staff demanded more transparency on our finances and how decisions were being made. So leadership went into a room and the senior leadership agreed that they would lay 1/3 of the company off–permanently or temporarily (~100-150 people). Then they told us this decision, but also told us that they had no plan beyond laying off 1/3 of the company (no criteria for layoffs), just that they’d decide all of that in the next two weeks and on July 20, VPs will do layoffs.

    We’re a non profit and majority of staff make between 50 and 100k. Our CEO takes home over half a million and his sacrifice in all of this is that he’s taken a 20% paycut. So he’s now taking home around 420k. Even though many of the reasons that we’re in the position we’re in are due to his poor leadership.

    I just want to scream. Now they’re claiming that we asked for transparency. BUT this is not transparency. Telling us that they’re laying people off but still don’t have a plan is foolish. AND they won’t now tell us what the actual approach to lay offs/furloughs will be. Which is NOT transparency. I love that they made a bad decision as leaders and have turned that around and now claimed that they were forced to tell us the “plan” based on our demands. Does this logic extend to us to demanding to keep our jobs and cut our CEO’s salary more? (so far that answer is no, all of our leadership are silent and won’t talk about further paycuts).

    1. WellRed*

      I’m sorry you’re stuck in this situation and I agree they are handling it poorly but I’m not sure DEMANDING TRANSPARENCY is going to get you what you think it will. If they need to make cuts including layoffs, they will. Full stop. Leaders make bad decisions all the time, but that doesn’t change the eventual outcome. You can’t demand to keep your jobs (nobody owes you a job), and even if the CEO’s salary was cut more, how many jobs would it save? Two? Three?

      1. dorothyparker*

        Right, but that’s the point. We asked for transparency and they didn’t actually provide transparency. I honestly would have said, strategically, bowing to this “transparency” request was poorly thought through and didn’t accomplish anything except upsetting staff. But they’re now blaming us by saying that we forced them into being transparent in this completely hapless way.

        It’s also the principle, with regard to salary. I don’t think there’s a good argument to back-up his continuing high salary. What my team put forth was that senior leadership salaries be cut to create a fund for new projects that could produce revenue. It’s about the concept of “sacrifice” and while many will those their entire income, senior leadership saying the only way to save us is to do that while not actually taking a loss themselves seems like a archaic, selfish approach. I’m also SO tired of the whole senior leadership are above the rest. I’ve worked closely with them enough to know that their salary is rarely justifiable aside from the current professional frameworks perpetuated by capitalism and the old white men (and women tbh) who benefit from it.

    2. Annony*

      To be fair, it does sounds like they are being transparent. They aren’t hiding the plan, they don’t have one. Which is very bad.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      It sounds like you got the transparency you asked for. “No plan beyond the immediate layoff”… I can only assume is the truth (and as such transparent) because in all my experience of companies I’ve worked for, and talking to a lot-a-lot of other people, I’ve been in or witnessed secondhand many many straitened times/layoff situations, and I’ve not even once heard of senior leaders saying something like “we’ve no idea what we will do next”… there was always a semblance of a plan, always political wording, even if it was bs that could be seen through by the average person.

      How many people are potentially affected? Even if the CEO cut their salary by 90% to $50,000 and ipso facto freed up $450,000 would that make a material difference to the viability of the company in the long term? That’s the salary for 4-9 people (disregarding all the other costs of employment like healthcare and so on, so probably less).

      What do you want to happen at this point?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Not OP, but I think it would be nice if they grew up and became a real company.

        Variation on an old saying: When companies show you who they are, it’s okay to believe them.

        So, OP, they have two strikes here:

        You guys asked for transparency it’s reasonable to assume they have no idea what that means and no plan on how to figure it out. This is the kind explanation. The unkind explanation is that something nefarious is going on.

        Strike number two they are in a sinking ship and no one knows what to do.

        It would be wise for each employee to prepare their own life boat.

    4. RagingADHD*

      My dad used to say, “don’t ask questions you don’t want the answer to.”

      There was no answer here that you’d be happy with, because the situation sucks. The timing of the information can’t actually make it suck less.

      If they didn’t admit that layoffs were coming, you’d be mad that they weren’t communicating. If they waited to say anything until the plan was complete, you’d be mad that they sprung it on everyone. If they conducted all the planning on livestream, you’d be mad because it was hurtful to hear.

      It’s natural to be mad. But there was no good way to do this.

      If the C suite were to take paycuts to temporarily postpone a couple of positions being laid off, it wouldn’t make those jobs sustainable in the long run. The only thing that makes those jobs sustainable is increased revenue, managed well.

      And gutting c-suite salaries isn’t going to make that happen.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        I keep coming across this “if you don’t want the answer, don’t ask” type of thinking (here, and elsewhere such as other workplace forums) and I’ve gotta say it doesn’t seem to make sense to me. (Maybe I’m interpreting it differently than your dad was.)

        So for example… layoffs are coming. You won’t like that answer (presumably, in most cases) so… don’t ask the boss about it?
        What about if you are about to make a major life decision, like taking on a new mortgage? You’d need to know that answer, even if you don’t like it.

        Not asking because you don’t want to know the answer just seems like so much burying one’s head in the sand and saying “la la la” to me…

        … because the facts, and how things are going to shake out, are going to happen regardless of whether you asked about it or not! So better to know the information already, and be positioned to act on it (better than if you found it out later down the line at least) rather than just be, to coin a phrase, “consciously oblivious”?

        If I have misunderstood the “don’t asked questions you don’t want the answer to” then please set me straight, as this is something that’s been puzzling me for a while, as I say in forums other than here, as well as just this comment, but maybe you have some insight! :)

        1. RagingADHD*

          No, that’s exactly the point.

          It doesn’t mean literally “don’t ask.”

          It means, sometimes the truth is unpleasant, but the alternative is not knowing. So brace up and face it, because you can’t live in a fantasy world where everything goes your way all the time.

          Sort of a mixture of “life isn’t always fair” and “don’t shoot the messenger.”

    5. NRL*

      You can’t just demand to keep your jobs. It doesn’t work that way. The CEO taking a larger pay cut would save a couple of jobs, not a significant number (once you factor in benefits and payroll taxes). You’re not being realistic.

  56. Nonny for this*

    Hi everyone! I can’t talk about this at work, so I wanted to vent on here.

    My department has been been working from home exclusively for months due to covid-19. Recently, our area started relaxing rules and opening up. We aren’t required to go back to the office yet, but we’re allowed to go in for a few days per week if we choose. No one has been pressured to go in. My manager has been going in because his work from home situation is hectic.

    My manager had covid-19 symptoms for several days and told us on Monday that he was scheduled for a covid test on Wednesday. Today he told us he tested positive. He also told us that he went into the office on Tuesday! Despite having symptoms for several days, and being scheduled for a test!

    He asked us not to tell anyone, but I’m planning to make a complaint to HR. They want us to return to the office in the Fall, during flu season. How am I supposed to trust that others will stay home if they have potential covid symptoms, when my own manager came to work?? He interacted with others without a mask, so he exposed them, and it sounds like he’s not going to tell the contact tracer that he went to work, so these coworkers won’t know that they had unprotected interaction with someone with covid.

    I feel disgusted and betrayed. We work on healthcare products, although in a corporate environment, so no one here is seeing patients. He has a degree in public health. Our local cases have been rising since reopening, and we’re getting shut down again because of it. And he goes to the office with symptoms! He said he’s going to the grocery store and went to a friend’s house, too. That’s terrible as well, but unfortunately not something I think I can complain about to HR.

    1. blackcat*

      Tell HR ASAP so they can contact the workers who were in contact with your manager. Refusing to talk to the contact tracers and showing up symptomatic with a pending COVID test is such profoundly bad judgement, HR needs to know.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          All of this. The boss needs to be exposed – this is a liability for the company that HR would want to know about. He’s opening them up to a lawsuit if one of the people he came in contact with falls ill and does.

    2. WellRed*

      You certainly can and should complain to HR. You could have said something to your manager in the moment, FWIW. Aside from the health risk he has created, he now has lost your trust and respect and it’s not something he’ll be able to earn back.

      1. Nonny for this*

        I agree that I could have said something in the moment. I chose not to because my experience is that he will retaliate when he feels slighted. As he told me about going into work, I knew I would contact HR about it, so I didn’t want to alert him that I was upset, so he won’t know I’m the one who complained.

        When he told us on Monday he was having symptoms, in addition to wishing him the best, I also said he probably shouldn’t go anywhere before he got his test results. At the time, he agreed!

  57. Resume Q*

    I have a question about resumes. As far as I’m aware, you’re supposed to list accomplishments for jobs—but I don’t have accomplishments. My jobs are, essentially, customer service roles. So I just summarize what I do in 3-4 bullet points. I.e., “answer questions about services” or “shelved items”. Is that… okay? Should I try to re-work it so it looks like an accomplishment? Cause honestly, I don’t know how I would do that.

    There are some things that maybe would constitute as ~accomplishments, but those are sorta like 2 week projects and something that seems like it would better fit in a cover letter.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I know people say you should phrase everything as an accomplishment, but I’ve also found it hard to do so in many of my jobs, even though I’ve accomplished a lot. I usually just list my responsibilities, and then I can talk more about specific accomplishments that aren’t bullet-point-listable in my cover letter and in interviews.

      1. Resume Q*

        Yeah, that’s what I was thinking! More time to shine in the cover letter, and I think it’s much easier to explain when you have a little more room. Thanks for the advice!

    2. Littorally*

      Projects can absolutely go on a resume! They’re a great indicator for your ability to take on extra responsibilities as needed.

      1. Resume Q*

        How would you list them? Like “Projects: relabeling items, maintained x section”? Or should they be individual? Thanks!

        2. Littorally*

          The projects I’ve listed on my resume look something like this:

          – Took ownership of department in/out discrepancies log and resolved 3-month backlog of 500+ items within 6 weeks while maintaining normal caseload
          – Designated case manager handling mass cancellations by major client, over 100 cancellations totalling $200,000 in value
          – Created and implemented all-new training program for overseas staff of 30, including multiple training sessions both remote and onsite

          The metrics are really important to give a scale of the project. So, for your example of the relabeling project, how much time did you have to do it in and how many items were relabeled? Round off the numbers (realistically) for easiest comprehension.

    3. LDN Layabout*

      “Worked/Led on several short term projects, including/focusing on…”

      And then you expand on any relevant ones to the job you’re applying for in the cover letter.

    4. Fabulous*

      Something I’ve found helps in these types of roles is quantifying your duties, i.e. “Field up to 30 questions daily about products and services, assisting with both customer and peer inquiries” or “Shelved over 100 bulky items within 2 hours, approximately 20% quicker than standard practice.”

    5. Fabulous*

      Also, vary your verb usage and try to pick out more descriptive action verbs that better encompass what you do. For example:

      Answer questions = Field inquiries
      Stocked shelves = Oversaw inventory stocking
      Worked on project X = Launched project X, Streamlined X, Spearheaded project X, Supported project X by…

      1. Imprudence*

        Remember too that the person reading your resume has NO IDEA what you do. Your job is to help them connect what you do to the job you want.
        So read through the duties / requirements in the ad and for each one think of something you have done that shows you would be good at that. And be specific about that thing so they can imagine you doing it at the job they have to fill.
        To turn responsibilities into accomplishments, thing of what you had achieved at the end of the day and how this helped your employer. Shelf stacking —> Stock levels maintained, customers able to find products. Cleaning –> office hygienic and pleasant to work in.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Even if they don’t feel like “accomplishments” to you, you can add depth to them as listed in the comments already.

      “Processed an average of 100 inquiries a day” verses “Process customer inquiries.” because there’s a HUGE scope when it comes to customer service.

      How much restocking did you do? There’s a difference between stocking a convenience store verses at Amazon, yo know.

      Also you’ll stand out a lot when you spruce up your CS resume because they all look the same honestly…but you can show you’re savvy by freshening it up with data points.

    7. Carbondale*

      I agree with others that quantifying your work with numbers makes a big difference. Even if the numbers are just estimates, it gives the hiring manager a much better idea of the scope of your work.

      I also think the 2 week projects could be a great addition, especially if those projects had a specific outcome. Did relabeling items make it faster to find those items later? If so, you “improved efficiency.” Do you work closely with other staff? You can say something like, “coordinated with other staff to maintain…” Hiring managers like seeing evidence of teamwork.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      You can add those projects, also do you get any “metrics” as a customer service person — such as results of surveys people get asked to take after a customer service interaction, number of calls resolved first time without escalation, or anything like that? – if so, you could also convert those into accomplishments like “Achieved a 98% first-time resolution rate” or whatever.

    9. voluptuousfire*

      If you don’t necessarily have metrics for your role, Alison has a blog about how to show accomplishments on your resume that aren’t numbers-driven. You can find it in the resume section.

      Also, try keeping track of a task you normally do in your day today. Tally it up and you have your own metric right there!

    10. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Adding to what others said: Accomplishments may in the framework: “Did ABC which resulted in XYZ benefit.”

    11. Resume Q*

      This is late, but thank you everyone for the replies! I’m sorry I was only to respond to a few (yay work) but I appreciate all the advice. Really makes me see resume-writing in a different light.

  58. Anonymous Educator*

    Not that anyone’s going on vacation now, but when things get back to “normal,” anyone else in a couple where one person has basically unlimited (or a ton of) vacation days, and the other person has only 10 days a year? How do you all handle that if you want to travel eventually?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You work around the person with fewer days, of course, or that person tries to work out a week or so of unpaid leave. If the person with unlimited vacation really loves to travel, they can plan on a few trips themselves or with friends. You just kind of… do it.

      Also, make sure the person with unlimited leave is the one who takes days off for necessary household issues or taking the dog to the vet or whatever.

    2. Long Time Fed*

      I have tons of vacation time and my husband has 15 days. We typically do 2 one-week vacations a year or one big one. Every few years we travel for 3+ weeks and he just carries over a day or two a year for it.

      We’re on vacation now – rented a beach condo. We can avoid people as easily here as at home. :)

    3. JustMyImagination*

      My husband and I have lopsided vacations but we had an international trip planned this year. We were going to take the red-eye on a Thursday night and then fly back the following Wednesday. He would have only had to take off Friday-Wednesday but I was taking the days before to do all of the last minute errands and then the days after to get the vaca laundry squared away since I have more days. So he was using 4 days and I was using 8.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I get almost three and a half times as much PTO as my husband does – he gets ten days, I get 33. In normal times — we have a Vacation Accord that says I can go to Disneyworld as much as I want without him (I’m an annual pass holder), I won’t go anywhere internationally without him (or at least without giving him opt-in), and non-WDW domestic destinations are up for discussion – if he wants to go to wherever, it goes on the joint list, and if he doesn’t particularly, then I can do it solo whenever.

      I went to Vegas with a friend without him last fall, and on a driving tour of Civil War battlefields in MD/VA/PA last summer, because he wasn’t particularly interested in either of those, but we went to NOLA together, and Boston is on the “joint” vacation list someday. Our habit the last several years has been that we go somewhere together for the week of our anniversary, and then he uses his second week’s worth as one day here and one day there, usually while I’m gone so that he can have a nice quiet relaxing day at home with the dogs.

    5. Lucette Kensack*

      Yes! I get 30 days a year and my husband gets 18. My organization allowed us to carry over a lot (up to 1.5 times our annual accrual), so I mostly just hoarded them. We planned our travel (visiting family for the holidays + one week-long trip most years) around my husband’s schedule and vacation allocations. Once or twice I took a short trip with a friend, and I frequently took random extra days off (my birthday, baseball opening day, etc.)

    6. JustaTech*

      My husband gets more vacation than I do so we plan “us” trips and then he goes on trips to do things I don’t want to do (skiing), or where my presence isn’t necessary (visiting his folks for a week to do work for their company).

  59. Anonymous Educator*

    Any teachers out there stressed about your school planning to re-open in the fall? How are you handling it?

    1. Josephine Beth NotAmy*

      “Stressed” would be a massive understatement. I’m somewhat lucky to be in a state that has taken Covid19 seriously from the beginning, did a slow phased reopening and seems to be mostly controlling things…and I still think reopening schools given the guidance they’ve issued is a recipe for disaster. Our state’s recommendations also include providing in-home special education services for families when feasible, which would mean I would spend at least some of my time doing that kind of work.
      I’m having a hard time sleeping. I find myself pacing the house trying to work through different scenarios in my head. A couple of weeks ago I was feeling good about having settled into a WFH routine, and now I’m just stressed out all over again. And that’s before I start worrying about my own kid’s back-to-school planning!
      (Sorry, this probably wasn’t helpful at all. I hope your school is doing everything it can to help you and your coworkers feel safe)

    2. Middle School Teacher*

      I’m SO stressed to the point that I’m having nightmares. It doesn’t help that a) I picked up a new class I haven’t taught in 15 years and b) our province has given very little direction (they prefer “board autonomy” which is nonsense in this case. Plus teachers tend to be planners (ok control freaks) at the best of times and this is a situation we can’t control. So all I’m doing is… digitising resources, going to yoga and trying to get more exercise, and just hope for the best. We’re supposed to get direction from the province on August 1.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      One of my friends is a private school teacher who’s supposed to back to in-person SUMMER classes. Masks are mandatory for her, but not for students. She’s supposed to self-isolate other than the classroom, and she already lives by herself and is feeling pretty lonely. She’s terrified and has said it’s a “when” not “if” she gets covid.

    4. KittyCardigans*

      Yes, even though we aren’t sure about re-opening or not. Local public schools have been making weird calls, and the state has not been handling things well; our cases are rising. I work for a private school, and although I know admin is working hard on logistics, there’s just not a lot of clarity yet about whether we’ll be going back in person, online, or (most likely) some sort of hybrid model. This makes me feel like it’s impossible to effectively plan. So I’m handling it by completely checking out and ignoring everything work-related until the last week of July, which is when I told myself I’d dial back in. I don’t think it’s an especially good strategy, but my energy is low and this summer has not felt at all rejuvenating, so here we are.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Not a teacher but the docs in our community are signing on to a letter to a local school district that plans to make masks “optional” to say, “Nuh-uh, please don’t do that.” If you have concerns, ask your doctor for support.

  60. Pontifex Xur*

    Any tips for coming up with six month goals for a work review, when at best your goals for the year are “survive” and “stay employed to keep the lights on”? Being that honest in a review is going to short term friction, since leadership is trying real hard to push the “Things are getting better” message right now.
    (Yes, I’m working on finding a therapist. I’m aware not being able to picture a future is also probably a sign of depression)

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      Pick 3-4 projects or tasks and describe what success looks like – Respond to all customer emails within 24 hours, etc

      1. Eether Eyether*

        My boss said to think of goals as projects, which helps me. She suggested to keep them general, in case they are overcome by events for whatever reason and need to be adjusted. But “general” goals may not fly at your company. I am not a naturally goal-setting person, so I find this painful. I don’t know what your job is, but make them doable. An online course might be one goal–either for a new skill or to brush up on an existing one. Good luck!!

  61. VictoriaQ*

    Is there anybody here who works in analytics (data, market, financial, etc)? I want to work in those fields, hopefully soon, but until then I’ve been in accounting jobs, which I find very cyclical and pretty boring. Is analytical work similarly repetitive (especially at entry level?) or does it involve a lot of different tasks or lots of learning?

    1. MissGirl*

      Yes to both questions. It can be cyclical and boring and it can be different tasks with lots of tools. This week I’m building two dashboards and am mocking up a third in Excel. Two weeks ago I spent days cleaning an Excel doc. I also do a ton of coding. I find it interesting but others find it tedious.

      1. VictoriaQ*

        Thanks for the insight! I know any job can be boring, but that sounds like the kind of boring I prefer, rather than the accounting stuff I do now. I suppose I’ll find out, won’t I?

      2. OrangeGrande*

        Hi MissGirl,
        Do you use Tableau? How did you get into your role? And is it related to your degree?
        What languages do you use for coding?
        Thank you

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I work in a field analogue to “analytics” and could say a lot about this but I don’t have a ton of time right now; I’ll try and come back to it tomorrow.

      In the meantime I would urge you to reflect on whether and why you conflate “cyclical” and “repetitive”. There are many many many (probably most) analytical roles in which the process you are supporting is cyclical (e.g. month-end reporting, quarterly or even annually) or repetitive in that many times you will be repeating something you did before, maybe with different parameters.

      1. VictoriaQ*

        That’s very true, and I think it’s because in my job, it’s entirely cyclical tasks, and therefore combined with my boredom, it feels repetitive. I think it’s something where I would feel better in a job with more variety. Where there are cyclical elements, but also projects I help work on. And some of it will come with time as I move up and take on more interesting/complex tasks. Part of it is that, unfortunately, I’m grappling with ADHD, which makes it harder to deal with boring tasks.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          Ah, I understand.

          As an entry-level data analyst in many companies you would probably initially experience the same challenges that you do in accounting (i.e. the cyclical/repetitive nature of doing “essentially the same thing over and over”) but the scope to progress to things that are “project work” and more “one-off” in nature is much greater than in accounting (at least as I understand accounting).

          It depends on the organization of course, but if a company is large enough to have a dedicated ‘Data Analyst’ function (that is separate from things that seem related but aren’t really, like Accounting and IT!) you are likely to have opportunities to take on more diverse stuff quite quickly.

          1. VictoriaQ*

            Thank you so much for your advice! It’s a relief to know that. I’m hoping my next job will be at a much larger company, and I’ll have more room for growth and to learn a lot.

    1. Mrs. Vexil*

      I realized the same thing yesterday while I was bored and irritated waiting forever for the nurse to come get me, at a doctor’s appt! No need to rearrange my face.

    2. Peaches*

      Lucky you! I have RBF because of my heavy eyebrows and now that’s all people can see :(

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        Are they attack eyebrows, like Peter Capaldi’s? I’m a heavy eyebrow person too, and people praise them (?), but they so hard to maintain “in place”!

    3. Retail not Retailns*

      Big mask, big sunglasses, ballcap – do I have a face? No.

      It was hard to kick the smile you do at little kids who are customers but it’s so nice being able to relax your face!

  63. Cpaciba*

    Hello all!

    I’ve been thinking about this for months and haven’t made any headway.

    At one of my recent reviews (my boss gives me several a year, one formal and a few more casual), my boss asked me to think about a title change. I’m an Administrative Assistant and have been for the last 7 years at this office. My job extends to assisting a lot of different departments since I work in the hospitality industry. This has really diversified my skills and I love my job. I’ve been given more tasks steadily throughout my time here so my boss feels my title doesn’t really reflect all that I do.

    I’m not unhappy with my title but I suspect he’s right and if I ever was to pursue something else, it would be difficult to explain no title change in such a long time while also articulating steadily increasing responsibilities over a long period of time.

    My boss said to let him know if I think of a new title, but I can’t come up with one! Should I stick with Admin Assistant or is there a better title fit?

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      To be able to give suggestions about better titles we need to know what responsibilities you have?

      1. Cpaciba*

        I work for a private beach club.

        As my current title suggests, I assist with office tasks but those tasks extend across various departments which a hospitality-based business provide.

        So for example, I write the letters to the membership from our President, design menus for the Dining Room with the help of the Executive Chef, design and mail invitations for all events, handle Point of Sale and billing, check-in guests, do A LOT of tracking spreadsheets, wait tables, answer phones, hand out to-go orders, train seasonal reception, handle ordering, help out with our kids camp and tennis, and a lot more.

    2. Alexis Rose*

      Hmmm, why doesn’t your boss suggest a title? It’s good that he’s giving you a chance to give input, I guess, but I’m not sure it’s your sole responsibility to come up with. He should have more industry experience than you and know what would be standard or fitting.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I don’t know if this is better, but I was recently changed to Administrative Specialist.

      Personally I wanted Admin Ninja, but I was told that might not be totally professional.

      1. Cpaciba*

        Oooh I like Specialist actually!

        Yes, we’ve definitely joked about “Czar of Communications” since I write all our President’s letters, etc but again, doesn’t really cover everything I do or am capable of.

        Thank you for the reply!

    4. MonteCristo*

      If it is the same general role, just with increasing skill and more tasks, perhaps adding “Senior” to the title?

  64. NowWhat?465*

    With the new SCOTUS decision regarding employer insurance covering birth control, I’m wondering how to bring this up during a job hunt/offer negotiation when it comes time for me to search again.

    I need to be on birth control for medical reasons outside of preventing pregnancy (though preventing pregnancy is instrumental in my health issues) and rely on insurance to cover it. I previously thought only religious institutions could opt out of covering, but it looks like any company can based on the boss’s personal views.

    Do you think there’s a tactful way of bringing this up in the negotiation process?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      I have no advice either, other than to commiserate. Health insurance has such a HUGE impact on someone’s quality of life and it’s weird we can’t get any information about it until after an offer.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I think it’s fairly benign to ask to review the benefits package before accepting an offer. However, those are subject to change at least annually.

      If the numbers are not prohibitive, I would try to mentally reclassify the expense from an insurance one to a personal one and negotiate a salary that allows you to pay it comfortably. That way, if it’s covered, you’re golden, but if circumstances change next year and it ceases to be covered, you’re not left between the proverbial rock and hard place.

    3. Sara without an H*

      I’d wait until the offer negotiation stage. You should at that point be able to ask for a benefits packet with details on what’s covered by your employer’s plan. You should also ask for contact information for the firm’s HR person, so that you can follow up with questions, if you can’t figure out what you need to know from the benefits packet. I did this before I accepted my current position (although my questions were mostly not about medical benefits), and it was very helpful.

      Note: If they refuse to share benefits information during the offer negotiations, I would treat that as a big red flag and keep looking.

    4. Buttons*

      You don’t want to bring it up in the interview process, the appropriate time is when you get an offer. As part of considering the offer you can ask to see the benefits package. Most provide it without being asked.

    5. Peaches*

      Once you receive an offer, you can ask for a copy of the benefits package and options. If it’s not clear from that, I think you could ask something like, “does the company place any restrictions on what the health insurance plan will cover?” No need to go into detail.

    6. Morning reader*

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this exception for religious organizations? Would it be possible to ask in the context of “Office culture” if there is a religious affiliation? Birth control coverage would not affect me personally, but I wouldn’t be a good fit at a company where religious beliefs impacted benefits, policies, hours, or much of anything. (I never even liked the standard time and a half on sundays that seems to apply to many govt sector jobs… never complained but it’s weird that my time is considered more valuable that day… because work is keeping me from church and that’s what I’d rather be doing… or something like that? Never could figure it out… )
      I know interviewers are not supposed to ask about a candidate’s religion. But can candidates ask about a prospective employer’s religion? Should that be something that they have to disclose?

    7. ...*

      I probably wouldn’t unless buying BC outside of insurance would be cost prohibitive and there are many generics available and lots of online prescribers that will do like $15 BC for no insurance. I’m just not sure there’s a way to bring it up. I wouldn’t mind being asked it in an interview, but I work in a liberal area in a field thats full of 20 and 30 something women but I can’t imagine asking a stodgy old man this, and I honestly wouldn’t lol.

  65. Sloan Kittering*

    I shared this in the comments on that letter, but the one about being asked on a Schrödinger’s networking date (link next comment) reminded me of the time I declined because I thought it was a date, and it actually was professional. I think this perspective is missed in these conversations, but this is the flip downside of the creeper coworker: it keeps women from advancing the way men would, by networking successfully. Here was my story:

    I am in a niche field and met an older man (I am a fairly young female) through networking. He asked if he could call me to discuss my company, where he had an offer he was considering – I said sure, and naturally gave him my cell so we could talk. The call was professional. But after that, he texted me a few times, once very casually (not work related). Then he texted to ask if we could get drinks. I was flustered and assumed he was asking for a date, and responded more directly than I usually would have, that I might be interested in drinks to discuss the industry but that I was not available if his interest was romantic. He was HORRIFIED. Tripping all over himself to explain that it wasn’t his intention, gosh he’s so sorry to have made me feel that way, he has a loving family and a daughter, is happily married etc etc etc. I just kind of shrugged it off at the time (men – maybe not text as the medium if you are actually on the level??) but now I can tell he still feels super awkward around me in work contexts, and I suspect this is affecting me professionally since he’s a gatekeeper for something I wanted to get into.

    I now wish I had been less direct in my response, said something a little smoother so that I didn’t make it weird … But, in the past, I’ve kicked myself for being too nicey-nice and letting it get too far when a creeper was creeping. So, all I’m saying I guess is that it’s really hard to win on this one.

    2. Katniss Evergreen*

      Ugh I’m sorry – I think in that case it is kinder and more considerate of people to say what specific thing they’re asking someone “out to drinks” to talk about, to avoid a misunderstanding. Not that it’s entirely avoidable – as you said, even if everyone really has good intentions it doesn’t always work. The texting makes this feel super casual, which I’m sure was really weird. You have my sympathies as another woman who’s been around people who are legit creepy, and people who don’t think they’re being creepy but still come off that way.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        It’s true, we are both in a big city where “work drinks” is more of a thing, but I probably should have just politely suggested coffee as the drink we would be having, and he probably was totally fine with that. I can’t even remember how he phrased it now, it’s possible he DID mean coffee. But he could have definitely invited someone else along, or suggested that I bring a friend to talk industry stuff, if he wanted to set my mind at ease. And yes, I’m less comfortable w/ texting and he probably doesn’t think as much of it as I do.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think you did just fine but I also feel for him. And that’s ok, awkward stuff happens. The shrugging it off is ok too, but if you want to keep up the conversation/connection, you might want to email him and say you’d like to keep in touch, how about a nice, collegial coffee? Don’t say anything about hard feelings, don’t apologize, but open the lines of communication and show him that you value him as a connection. He may take you up on it, he may not. He may be super relieved, but he may also feel really weird.

      Asking a networking contact out for drinks strikes me as a location thing. Like, in NYC I did informational interviews at bars after work, felt totally normal. When I lived in the South, I don’t think I would have done that with a person of the opposite sex.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        This is a good suggestion. Maybe I should re-0pen the lines and try again (uh, when we can meet in person again), as he obviously wouldn’t be able to now!

    4. Buttons*

      Don’t feel bad. Men need to be aware that women are approached all the time in weird and inappropriate ways. I agree with Alison that in most cases they are feeling the waters and asking you out, and then react with “I wasn’t asking you out!” to save face. Men have accused women of not being direct and then they do things like this. The onus is on him for not being clear.

    5. More Coffee Please*

      I wouldn’t be too embarrassed. As a young woman myself, an older man casually texting and then asking me for drinks would raise my alarm bells as well. Even if you were direct, I think your response was perfect – you essentially said yes if the request is professional, no if it’s romantic. That makes sense, and it gave him the opportunity to clarify that it was a professional request.

      One caveat – it’s still hard to know sometimes if the guy is really telling the truth, which is frustrating. I’ve been in situations like this before: man wants to hang out with me. I say that I’m happy to be friends / to network and just want to clarify it’s not a date. He says no, of course not! Then over time, he continues to act very “friendly” in a way that makes my spidey senses tingle (maybe insisting on buying me drinks or telling me something I did was cute), and I have to gently back away from the relationship.

      Time will probably smooth things out. I would just act normal around him and pretend you’re not fazed. If he continues to be awkward and you want to do something, you could have a short conversation (definitely in person this time). Just something like – “Sorry for the misunderstanding over text the other day. You know, as a woman I just like to make sure I’m clear on the reason for getting drinks before I accept an invite. We’re good!”

    6. mreasy*

      It is not your fault though – it’s on him for being willfully clueless about the fact that men are constantly hitting on their professional contacts and that a casual drink is most often seen as a date! Lunch or coffee? His reaction to you may have been somewhat warranted. But not in this case.

    7. Maggie*

      His reaction seemed over the top to me. Couldn’t he have just given a quick apology for the misunderstanding instead of making a huge deal out of it? Makes me think he was romantically interested and then doing the OF COURSE IT’S NOT A DATE HOW COULD YOU EVEN THINK THAT? backtracking after being called out.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Yeah, his OTT reaction to me reads exactly like the gaslighty “I didn’t mean late night drinks in a romantic sense!” response to the LW earlier this week. Grasping at plausible deniability after being shot down. If he’s still being awkward, that’s on him for getting called out on an unwelcome romantic overture. It’s probably better than if you’d accepted and it turned out to be even more awkward in person b/c he wasn’t there for professional reasons.

        Just like the older guy who tripped all over himself apologizing for calling me “beautiful” in a work context (to his manager and coworkers) because oh gosh he was trying to be flattering and hates that I might have been offended! He was trying to push responsibility for the awkwardness on to me, like how dare I make him feel bad about doing something inappropriate.

        I’m sorry it happens to be a situation where his awkwardness could impede your progress, but I feel like you made the right call. If it causes him to think more carefully about how he’s coming across to other female colleagues, that’s a good thing in the long run.

      3. Diahann Carroll*

        That’s EXACTLY what I thought – Sloan, you were not wrong, you didn’t misunderstand a thing, and that guy was testing the waters with you. That’s why he’s still acting weird now – you called him on his shit and he’s embarrassed. If it was truly innocent, he would have laughed and said, “I think you misunderstood – I was asking you to get coffee to talk about X. My apologies, I should have been more clear” (and I’ve gotten this script from truly innocent men in the past).

        I wouldn’t reach back out to him again if I were you. He may interpret that as you changing your mind about what you want out of the connection, and he’s liable to cross the line again.

    8. MissGirl*

      Yeah, another flip side of this that hurts women is when men won’t network at all for fear of either you or other people thinking they’re flirting with you. I’ll go to a conference and not have one guy talk me beyond basic generalities but have great conversations with the women.

    9. Ronda*

      well maybe now you can address the super awkward after this and see if you can get him to not be impacting you professionally.

      Say something like you seem to be awkward around me since incident. I believe you didnt mean it that way, but it often happens…. so I am upfront about it when an invite seems like it may be that. Can we put this behind us?

  66. T3*

    Good news on my end. Today is my last day at my current job. Handed in my two weeks last week and I feel lighter! No job prospects yet, but I have a plan, and will be checking in with my career coach soon to strategize. I’m just really looking forward to the two week break I have planned.

    For the past 3 years, I’ve moved from one job to the next, with little to no break in between, either because of timing or because I couldn’t afford to take a break between jobs. I’ve experienced burnout several times (currently dealing with it right now) and it just feels so nice to be in a spot where I can actually pause.

    Right now I feel a bit mentally overloaded/overstimulated. I’m worried I won’t be able to fully enjoy the break because I’m so used to always being “on”.

    Any advice on how I can make the most of this time and actually get some rest?

    1. OTGW*

      If I was in your shoes, I would prioritize what makes me sane. In my case, that would be reading—fanfic and regular books—and mindless internet browsing. And also try to get outside a little bit each week. Fresh air is good even if it’s ridiculously hot outside.

      And if you don’t need to, don’t set an alarm in the morning. Waking up naturally is the BEST thing ever.

    2. WellRed*

      Unplug for a day or two. Give yourself permission to do nothing but I usually like to do something at least one day ( beach. Lunch out). Whatever works and is possible.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Random suggestions that work for me:
      -Spend some time each day doing something physical (whatever is suited to your body and ability) that helps you tune into your body and flow
      -Each day, do something in immersed in nature (socially distanced, of course). There have been studies that show that “forest bathing” has tangible mental health benefits.

  67. Alexis Rose*

    I could use some advice on giving myself an attitude adjustment about my job.

    I’ve been working at the same organization for 7 years, and it’s fine-to-good most of the time. There are a lot of frustrations as with many jobs, but overall the org’s mission is meaningful, my boss is kind, my coworkers are well-intentioned, and I can work from home for as long as I want / need to during the pandemic.

    I was considering job searching pre-covid simply because I’m feeling bored and there’s little room for growth. Ultimately I decided to stay since my husband and I want to start a family and I wanted a place where I knew I would not face any repercussions for pregnancy. However, I’m still feeling bored and burned out. I tried talking to my boss about taking on more new/different tasks, but there is no one who could take over my old tasks; my coworkers don’t have the skills and there is no money to hire someone else, so it would just be adding to my plate without taking anything away.

    Can anyone give me a bit of a reality check or advice on being grateful for what I have?

    1. Ranon*

      Honestly, slightly bored/ not caring so much was great for me during my pregnancy and afterwards because it meant I was able to prioritize what needed to get done with my reduced energy and attention levels with a lot more detachment. When you’re looking at adding a whole lot more caring to your life not caring so very much about your job can help with balance.

    2. Buttons*

      You can be grateful and frustrated and bored all at the same time. I don’t know what kind of work you do, but is it possible for you to identify a special project you could work on or head up. It won’t be a change in your regular duties but additional work. Can you identify a process or something that is inefficient or dated and come up with a plan? Once you have identified something and made a plan you can present to your boss. Let them know it won’t iterfere with your regular duties but it would allow you to develop your skills and help the company/team out.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have had 3 jobs that lasted 8 years or longer. The 8 year mark, which you are coming up on is right around the time I really felt the boredom setting in.

      I do really recommend keeping a super familiar job while going through life changes or events. Floating on automatic pilot can be a relief when home life takes up most of our time/energy.

      Are there jobs in other departments that you could apply for?

      Can one of your coworkers be trained on one or two of your longer more time consuming tasks so you can do different work? Can you trade responsibilities with someone who is also bored?

      Can you network to find companies that are supportive of moms-to-be?

    4. allathian*

      I’m pretty risk-averse so YMMV. But I’ve been in my current job for 13 years (including a two-year maternity/parental leave) and I’ve been pretty happy in my job. But even so, I have an interview coming up soon, it’s the first time I’ve interviewed when I haven’t been desperate to get the job, so we’ll see how it goes. With my experience, I’m a pretty strong candidate and that was confirmed by a phone screen earlier in the week. I’ve just realized that if I want a bigger salary, I’m going to have to go elsewhere, because there’s no room for career development in my org at the subject matter level and I’m not interested in managing people. The starting pay for the job I’m interviewing for would be higher than what I’m currently getting, with other benefits exactly the same. So I’m excited about the opportunity to interview but not desperate to get the job.

      But I agree with the others, if you’re looking to start a family, it’s great if you’re able to work just coasting along for a while. For many people, becoming a parent will reset their priorities when it comes to work. Feeling bored is not the end of the world, if the alternative is exhausted.

  68. Katniss Evergreen*

    My boss is still on maternity leave (8.5 weeks into her 12) and I’m doing well at the parts of her job I’m covering for, though I and the other person doing this now agree my boss’s job is not a 40 hr/week position. I have a thing to ask about though – my boss has indicated that she’s coming back part-time sooner than the 12 weeks’ leave she planned, in order to be able to take more leave intermittently as she returns because it might be necessary with her daughter being so young. She is on for some conference calls and answers emails here and there, but I never know when she is going to be online or for how long.

    Her husband is also working from home on an essentially indefinite basis, as we are, but they have no idea whether they’ll be able to get daycare for their infant or if that is safe (which is a completely understandable concern right now). They also both work demanding jobs (he’s a lawyer, she’s the right hand to our super important office chief). It feels really insensitive to ask her what her plan is for introducing time blocks that she’ll be online and taking some of this work back from me, when her daughter is 8 weeks old and they don’t have daycare in place. However, I’m burning out on this because I’m working 45-50 hours/week and feel like I can’t take leave, or urgent crap could come up when I’m gone. What do I do here?

    TL;DR – My boss is sorta returning early from maternity leave on a not-at-all-defined part-time basis. I totally understand parenting is crazy hard when balancing work so I don’t want to push; am I the devil to ask her for a more defined plan right now?

    1. Buttons*

      You can certainly ask her! “I am glad you are coming back early! Will you have set hours? Will I and coworker still be responsible for any of the things we were doing while you were away? Which ones?”
      She may not have finished working out the details yet, and she may want to see how the first week goes before she makes an exact plan. She may not know yet how hard or easy it will be for the two of them to juggle the newborn.
      Once you have a plan from her I would then ask her if you can take some time off. You need some time off, and it is your right to take it. I would phrase it as “Now that we have a plan in place, I would like to take some PTO on these days.”
      Good luck!

      1. it happens*

        This sounds great. Also be prepared for her to say that she isn’t taking anything that you and coworker are covering for. When you say her job is not 40 hours, I read that to mean that she doesn’t have 40 hours of work every week. And if that’s what you meant, maybe you’re right, but probably she just didn’t hand everything off to the two of you and wants to pick up some of that excess now so it doesn’t bite her when she comes back FT.

        1. Katniss Evergreen*

          Oh that was worded poorly – I meant that her position isn’t JUST a 40 hr/week job, that she’s definitely putting in more than that and the position essentially demands that, if everything she’s responsible for gets done in a timely manner.

          It’s a lot – I do need to ask, just not sure how.

    2. valentine*

      You gotta ask. Let her do her job.

      And you need a second and a full line of succession, so also ask her who takes on the major bits when you are on leave. Maybe you want to be available for emergencies?

  69. Egg and Cheese*

    I accepted an offer in February and was set to begin in March. In April, I reached out and was told they’d be hoping to know more about my start date once they could open the office. They were hoping for June and said they’d keep me posted. I figured they’d get in touch with me when they knew more and have learned from Alison’s posts that they probably don’t have information, but I checked in this week because offices opened in my state last month. I’ve yet to receive a response and am wondering if it’s normal for a company to rescind an offer in this way. I’m job searching but would love some clarity.

    Is anyone here a hiring manager with any insight?

    1. Buttons*

      No, it isn’t normal. It could be a couple of things- the person you contacted may have reached out to the decision makers and doesn’t have an answer from them yet or they could be ghosting you. Go ahead and job hunt just in case.

      1. Egg and Cheese*

        Thanks. I’ve been in touch with HR throughout the entire hiring process, but when I reached out in April I got redirected to a different email and a response from the CEO about the June reopening. This week I contacted HR again but when I didn’t hear back I messaged the second email as well. Wasn’t looking to bother the CEO but she seems to be having the HR emails forwarded to her through the other address.

        Hoping they’re making a decision because I shouldn’t contact them again at this point.

  70. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

    Good job advancement vibes, please!! I’m waiting to hear whether I’m going to advance to the second round of interviewing for a job I’d really like to get. My job is ending on the 31st, so I’m really hoping this works out!

    1. The Rural Juror*

      Good vibes good vibes good vibes good vibes good vibes good vibes good vibes good vibes good vibes good vibes!
      Good luck!

    2. ThePear8*

      Good luck! If you’re reading this site you’re probably already doing a lot of things right – hope it goes well for you!

  71. IntoTheSarchasm*

    Well, I am in a holding pattern to learn my fate. Have been furloughed to part-time (60%) and redeployed for twelve weeks, ending today. This is my furlough week so I am not working. The other furlough-ees were informed this week of their next status this week, most are coming back at .8 so they get full time benefits, two positions were unsurprisingly eliminated, unfortunately. I am desperate to know, so I reached to my VP (I am a manager, Director is on vacation) and told him I was glad to meet even though furlough days, he said wait till next week. I guess I am taking this as a bad sing, because if i was coming back I can’t imagine why he wouldn’t tell me now. He has informed others of job eliminations and returns with our director so why wait for her to return if he is willing to do the calls? I may be facing elimination as probably don’t need two managers, although we are working managers, for three staff when previously we had 5. The best I can likely hope for is continued partial furlough and maybe redeployment to another department. Am i being too pessimistic? Thanks!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Your VP might not have said anything just because he doesn’t know what’s going to happen. Sorry, this is really rough time.

  72. Triumphant Fox*

    I just got an invitation to a company pool party next week at my boss’s house, inviting all 35 employees and their families.

    I just…sigh.

    2. The Rural Juror*

      You don’t HAVE to go. I definitely wouldn’t! Sounds nice and all…but I don’t want to be around my coworkers in a swimsuit. :/

      1. Triumphant Fox*

        Oh yeah, I had no problem saying no. I just don’t know how anyone will interpret this invitation generously, then again people’s responses to this whole pandemic have me baffled.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        I think problem is less the swimsuit and more the “why the hell would you want that many people gathering in one place right now”.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      And as a special surprise, on the way out you can all pass through a mobile COVID testing site!

      1. Helen J*

        Really! This seems so tone-deaf. “Ok staff, I know we are still in a pandemic/public health crisis and cases are on the rise, but hey- let’s have a pool PAR-TAY and bring the fam!”

  73. AnonAgain*

    So, my employer furloughed almost the entire company, save the C-suite, IT, and a few HR folks, back in March. We were strung along on promises of returning “June 1” then “August 1” then “sometime in September”. I saw the writing on the wall in February, when the company president cut our division off from bonuses because he thought we were too expensive (hint: ignoring data warehousing for decades then deciding you need everything organized in a hurry is expensive!) and started looking then. We got minimal severance pay and were required to cash out all of our leave time.

    I got an offer this week pending background check. Two hours later, my phone rings: it’s my furloughing employer, calling to formally terminate my entire division (roughly 30 people), save our boss. What timing…the call was made by a C-level person and head of HR so not anyone I worked with directly.

    And so my boss found out that everyone under him was terminated — by his reports calling HIM to let him know. He had no idea it was coming. I imagine he’s on a short list to go too.

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      Yikes! Good for you for having gotten an offer – I hope that everything goes well with your transition.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Same. It sucks for your coworkers, though, if they didn’t see the writing on the wall and start their own job searches.

  74. Jonah*

    Does anybody have advice on how to ask a professor for a letter of recommendation for grad school apps when you’re an online student? I graduated a few years ago with my BA, and I’ve been taking online classes at my alma mater to round out my background since my BA is unrelated. That means I’ve never met any of these professors face to face, and I haven’t had any of them more than once. I know it’s done, I’m just not sure how to make the request.

    1. Peaches*

      I’m sure you won’t be the first online student to ask, so don’t stress it too much. Share a little bit about your background and why you’re taking the class. Try to highlight some points of connection, like “I enjoyed our class discussion on ethical teapot making,” or “I really appreciated your feedback on my paper on the history of widgets.” You can even acknowledge that you feel funny about asking since you haven’t met in person.

    2. Jellyfish*

      Just email them and ask. They’re used to it! Pick a professor whose class you enjoyed and did well in, ask politely, give them sufficient time to respond, and be ready to send them your resume and transcript if they ask for it.

      Dear Dr. X,
      My name is Jonah Y and I took your Frosting 300 class in Fall 2019. I am applying to the cookie decorator masters program at Super Awesome University, and I wondered if you would be willing to write a letter of recommendation for me. If so, I will forward you more information.
      Thanks very much for your time,
      J

      Obviously adjust that for formality / wording / politeness / niceties / etc, but a simple, straightforward request is sufficient. Also, did you have an advisor or anyone you worked with outside of the digital classroom? They can be good for grad school recommendations too.
      Good luck!

      1. IsItOverYet?*

        It’s not a big deal – just email like Jellyfish suggests. Keep in mind:
        1) give them more than a week to get it written
        2) be prepared to provide more information (I always request some info on why the person is applying, what they think their strengths are, etc) – not everyone asks for more info but it’s not uncommon so it may help to have it pre-written
        3) be prepared to not hear back because if someone isn’t teaching over the summer they may not be checking their emails regularly
        4) don’t ask it if from a prof if you had any integrity issues in their class (**I am NOT suggesting that you’ve had any integrity issues, but I just got a request from someone who committed word for word plagiarism more than once – despite a nice long meeting after the first instance – and I simply would not be able to write a good letter for them)
        If you are going to be taking more online classes, try to get to know the profs more. I teach online and hold office hours via Zoom, and I am always happy to have students “drop into” office hours to talk about grad school/future plans/study skills/etc. It makes it a lot easier to write letters when I know the person, but I also understand that the online format just makes it harder.
        Good luck!

    3. IsItOverYet?*

      I teach online a lot and this is tough…because writing a good letter is a lot easier when you know your students, but most profs are used to it because it’s the nature of online teaching. A few things 1) give them more than a week to get it written – preferably several weeks 2) be prepared to provide more information (I always request some info on why the person is applying, what they think their strengths are, etc) – not everyone asks for more info but it’s not uncommon 3) be prepared to not hear back because if someone isn’t teaching over the summer they may not be checking their emails regularly and 4) don’t ask it if from a prof if they had to call you out about integrity – **I am NOT suggesting you’ve had any integrity issues, but I just got a request from someone who committed word for word plagiarism twice (despite a nice long meeting after the first instance)

      1. IsItOverYet?*

        Edit – please ignore this post directly above…somehow I posted it early (sorry).

  75. Cormorannt*

    My state is in phase 4 and I’ve been asked to return to the office even though my job can be done perfectly fine at home. My boss admitted it’s going well with us at home, but the owner wants us there in person. I have my own office, so even though I wasn’t super happy about it, I went in Mon-Tues-Weds this week. Almost nobody is wearing masks and aren’t social distancing either. In my state, employers have to provide masks but in Stage 4 they don’t have to mandate their use. I raised the issue to my boss and to HR and they said they weren’t going to enforce it. I can go back to working from home “if I’m uncomfortable.” I told the small team I manage that there’s not much more I can do, they can ask to go back to WFH, but I can’t guarantee it won’t be viewed negatively by TPTB. The owner doesn’t wear a mask. This is not a small company, but the owner is very involved in the day-to-day. I’m working from home now and I’m going in on Monday to discuss it with my boss. Gah!!!!

    1. LQ*

      Can you throw yourself in front of your team. “Due to -whatever plausible reason, being in the office creates noise and anxiety that is making my team less productive right now, lots of people with small children who normally pass around illness being amplified, or if you are up for it, my concerns for my team – I’ve recommended that they all continue to work from home unless they strongly prefer to be in the office.”

      Can you do something like that?

      1. Not A Manager*

        I was wondering something similar. Is it possible to say something like, “WFH has worked really well and been very efficient for my team,” – if that’s true – “so I’m going to be very flexible about allowing people to continue to WFH”? Or even, “Because this has worked so well, my team is going to continue to WFH until the rest of the economy is sorted out.” I feel that your work might be more receptive to an economic argument than a health-based one. I’m sort of using “economy” to mean “until schools open again and can serve as babysitters and childcare.”

        1. Cormorannt*

          The problem is not getting permission to let my team work from home. I told them if that’s what they want, I will go to the mat for them and it doesn’t sound like I’ll get much pushback from my boss or HR. The problem is that the owner is very likely to perceive it very negatively. Like, we’re a bunch of germophobic wusses who don’t want to change out of our pajamas and come to the office. That’s not something I can protect them from and they have to make their own decisions as to whether it’s worth it to come in or take the political hit and stay home. That’s what I’m trying to decide for myself as well.

  76. ReviewMePlease*

    My company does annual reviews which are largely seen as a formality (required by the board, so reluctantly done by managers). My role’s focus has shifted a fair bit in the last several months and I kind of want to ask for a mid-year review. Is that weird? Should I go for it?

    1. Emma*

      I might not request a formal mid-year review, but I think it would be fair to ask if you could have a meeting to get any feedback she has given the changes in your role over the past few months. I have had people ask me to do something similar, and I think it is reasonable (and can be sensible). It takes me some time to prepare even for a discussion when I provide my feedback; it takes me a lot of time to prepare for a more formal review with a write-up, etc (and I probably would not be willing to do that outside of our normal review cycle).

    2. MonteCristo*

      I don’t think it is weird to ask for a review. It doesn’t have to be a formal thing, I’m guessing you just want to make sure you are on track with your new focus?

      My current job doesn’t have any review process at all (start-up), and I had a review with my boss a few months ago, and just requested on with his boss last week. It wasn’t weird at all.

  77. Aeryn Sun*

    I want to check if I’m being crazy or if this is typical. A few weeks ago, my boss sent out a message that we were all being furloughed and to hold any questions until we got an email the next day. That part was fine. When we got the email the next day, it was all about disinfection/masking etc plans for when we reopen. My concerns were were more immediate: when is my last paycheck, how are we handling benefits etc. I asked my boss, who asked the company president (we are a small company) who said, “oh that’s a finance thing. You will all get a letter.” I waited a day and then emailed the finance director, who o know and work with, and while he answered my questions, he also said, basically, “you will get a letter.” The letter came 10 days later. I just felt like no one seemed to grasp that when, being told you are being furloughed, these issues of getting a paycheck and wondering about benefits and what to do for unemployment, etc are stressful and difficult and that they should have known that we’d all want that information ASAP. Is that how furloughs are usually handled? Make the announcement that the furlough will happen but details will follow 10 days later? Or did my company not handle this well?

    1. Picard*

      They did not handle it well. When we furloughed/laid off our staff, we had letters for the laidoff folks to take home with them (since we figured they would not be in a frame of mind to take in anything said verbally) and those that were furloughed (we cut hours for these folks but not 100%) had emails explaining the process.

    2. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      What?? 10 days is a really long time to leave people hanging about these really important matters. Your company did NOT handle this well.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      Not normal. They should’ve either met with you all individually, or if the info was mostly the same, as a group, told you everything that applied to all and then immediately afterward emailed you the letter with presumably details that are specific to you and only you as well as the other info they already said outloud. Not having all those details in writing the same they told you is a shitty thing to do. Not giving you the opportunity to ask questions directly that same day was also a shitty thing to do.
      At minimum if they wanted to do everything in a “letter” that letter should’ve been attached to the first email.

    4. it happens*

      I am so sorry. They handled it badly.
      I get that a lot of companies are just scrambling and making things up as they go, cuz no one planned for this. I’ve done corporate crisis communications/lay offs in the past. And the most important question has always been “what will the person we are talking to want to know?” It’s basic empathy, and just not where a lot of people anchor their work.

  78. Robb Stark*

    I found out this week that my boss has coronavirus and is now in the hospital in critical condition. The entire company has been working remotely since March, but for some unknown reason my boss kept going into the office every day. The entire building was empty so no one had any idea she was going in. During video meetings she would sit in front of a plain wall so it wasn’t apparent she was at work. Transit here was still running for essential workers and apparently she took it every day to and from work. There was no reason for her to be at work. Everything could be done from home and we all have access to video calling. Even the owner, the president, the executives and other managers above her level are working from home. She lives alone. The only reason we know she was going in every day for 4 months was based on what public health told the company, in case she had contact with anyone else from work (she didn’t). I just don’t understand why she would go to the office. Everything is in limbo and projects and stuff are on hold while they figure out what to do next. Should I reach out to my temporary manager in the meantime (a manager from another team that I don’t really know but fortunately have only heard good things about)?

    2. Annie Moose*

      I have so many questions!!! I wonder if she found working from home very difficult and thought it would be better to work from the office? Obviously doesn’t excuse going behind everyone’s back to do so, but wow, it’s a lot.

      As for reaching out to your temporary manager: yeah, that’s probably a good idea. I wouldn’t get too over the top or talk about your old manager, just sort of an introductory thing (e.g. “I’m X, not sure how many details you have yet but I’ve been working on Y, looking forward to working with you”). Your temporary manager likely has a LOT going on trying to take on your team, and will probably appreciate having someone act calm and focus on work instead of the strange situation!

    3. Kathenus*

      Since you admittedly don’t know why she made that choice, I’d try to put aside judging it. She could have done it for a reason important to her that you are unaware of. Maybe she got infected on public transit, maybe it was at the grocery store that she would have gone to even if she had done WFH. Horrible situation for her, but she was making a choice for whatever reason was important to her that may have put her at more risk but wasn’t doing so for others at work. I’m all about getting down on people who make selfish choices that put others at risk, but it doesn’t sound like that here, so I just feel sympathy for her situation.

    4. ieAnon*

      My supervisor is the same way. At work every day because they don’t seem to like being at home. It’s craziness to me.

      I also don’t think they’re taking the whole situation very seriously in other ways, either, but that doesn’t effect me the same way coming into the office does…

    5. Ronda*

      my sister goes in during stay at home orders…. cause she was the only one going in and didnt like working from home. (she was not taking public transit)

      working from home was not good for her cause home not set-up for it and cats bothered her while she was trying to work.

    6. Argh!*

      I have wondered about hoarders and people living with horrible spouses or noisy neighbors. How can they work from home when work is an escape from home? Perhaps the boss had an intolerable situation at home. I hope she makes a full recovery. And if she keeps up her immunity, she could go back to working at work.

    7. TechWorker*

      Should you reach out to your temporary manager – do whatever you would usually do if your manager was on holiday or sick. If there are things blocking you from getting on with stuff then yeah, ask them. They should hopefully have the judgement to identify things that definitely need to wait for boss’s call when they return.

  79. Jaid*

    Just got a call from my manager with further details about where I’ll be sitting when I report back on Monday. It’s near the breakroom.

    Sigh.

  80. Shockingly good news?!*

    I’ve been suuuuper unhappy at work lately, with what (IMO) boiled down to a lack of management, blurred lines w/ respect to roles and responsibilities, and the cherry on top, a new hire who turned out to be a rotten egg– entitled, unwilling to do general admin work, and then *purposely trying to trip me up* because he took it as a personal affront that I (a senior peer, as opposed to someone who was actually his boss) was tasking him with things he considered outside of his job description (they weren’t).

    I just had a conversation with my boss who told me that we’re changing things up (in my favor), the rotten egg will be leaving soon, and basically validating what I’ve been saying. It doesn’t change everything and it should have come 6 months ago, but it really helps my state of mind to feel like my concerns haven’t fallen on deaf ears.

  81. Louisa*

    Hi all! Happy Friday! I need some help with Microsoft Teams. I have an virtual interview next week for a job I’m super excited about (yay!). I have never used Micrsoft Teams before but that is the platform that will be used for the interview. I was able to download the app onto my Mac. When I tried to make an account it asked me what I wanted to use it for. I selected “friends and family” but it told me: “Use Skype. Teams is for work or school.” But I think to use it for work or school someone (an employer or my school needs to invite me?). The interviewers told me that they would send me an invite 5 minutes before the interview. I’m concerned that it won’t work and I will end up having to call in and have a harder time connecting with the interviewers. Also the interview requires me to screenshare. I am glad to reach out to the interviewers and ask them to send me an invite further in advance or ask if we can use a different platform. I just want to make sure that I’ve done my research first. I don’t want it to come across as a) I don’t care about this interview/job because I absolutely do! or b) I’m not tech savvy. I wouldn’t say I’m AMAZING at tech but I’m pretty good and I figure things out. I’m decently young (30) and work in a field where you need to be okay but don’t have to be a whiz (teaching).

    So my question–am I correct that I can’t use Microsoft Teams unless an employer or school sends me an invite? Is there a way for me to successfully use it to interview somewhere I don’t currently work? Or should I reach out to the interviewer to ask for an invite or a different platform?

    Thanks!!

    1. Annie Moose*

      You don’t need an account or the desktop app to use Microsoft Teams if they send you a link, you can do it through your web browser instead. I do them all the time and have never gotten around to getting the app set up!

      1. LDN Layabout*

        +1 to this, it’s how we get people from outside our organisation to your calls if they don’t have Teams.

        I /think/, but am not sure, that Chrome is the browser that allows you to screenshare if you use it via browser vs. app.

    2. Emma*

      Do you have any friends who use MS Teams who would be willing to do a 5 minute call with you so you can see how it works? As others have said, you should just receive a link that opens directly in your browser, but I understand how stressful it is to be preparing for a job interview, not knowing what the platform is like, whether it will work, etc.
      If you do have a friend who uses Teams, I don’t think it would be a big deal for them to do a quick call with you (it would only take a couple of seconds to send you a meeting invite with a Teams link, and only a few minutes to do a call).

    3. Kathenus*

      We use Teams a lot at work. IT installed it on my desktop, but I downloaded onto my personal phone without any work-related invites or anything. Maybe just try again and click work/school?

      1. TechWorker*

        I am guessing to use it for work/school it’s expecting you to have an email under a work/school domain to use.

  82. Margali*

    So, I know that there’s a large majority here that are allergic to team bonding activities :), but my boss has asked to brainstorm some that could be done remotely via Zoom or other method. This company is very good about not penalizing people who don’t want participate — these things have always been open to whoever is interested, and no pressure on those who aren’t.

    So, for anyone who is still reading…any ideas? Before SIP, we did a company trivia game via Kahootz that people seemed to like. Looking for something that could be done for maybe 30 minutes durng a lunch break.
    Thanks!

    1. Nacho*

      We have an occasional zoom happy hour that people seem to enjoy. No real “activities” like trivia, just meeting after work and getting drunk on zoom (or not, only about half of us actually drink beer during the meetings).

      1. WellRed*

        Seconding this, with the caveat not to hold it after work, but maybe shorten the day a bit and hold it then. We work basically 8 to 4 or 9 to 5ish, but had our happy hour at 3:30 and then everyone knocked off for the day.

    2. Faith*

      1. Introduce/show off pets? Even at my least social, I love seeing people’s pets and showing my own off.

      2. For those without pets, maybe show off hobbies/crafts/projects they have at home?

      3. Movie or TV or book discussion?

      4. You could still do trivia questions.

    3. D3*

      Let people have an actual lunch break off the call. If a meeting is long enough to need a lunch break, it should be a REAL break.

      1. WellRed*

        Oh I missed that they want to have this team bonding over lunch. Nothing like taking away people’s 30 minutes for enforced fun.

    4. Kathenus*

      I like the pet show and tell, we’ve done that at my job intentionally – it was a specific request and part of one meeting agenda; and informally – when someone’s pet happens to make an appearance at their leisure during the call/meeting.

      Something I did, in person pre-covid but could easily be done virtually, was to do some “Mad Libs” together. If you’re of a certain age you’ll know what these are, if not Google and you’ll find out. I was able to find some related to our field, and we did some to start a meeting and it was pretty funny.

    5. The Rural Juror*

      I used to regularly go to pub trivia with a group of friends. One of the rounds I really used to love was “Movie Acronyms” – they would give us the acronym of a movie and we had to guess its title. For example – IJATTOD (Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom).

      They would also do visual rounds like celebrity yearbook photos, pixelated cartoon characters (where they’re all blurry and you have to figure out who it is), city skylines, famous movie scenes, etc. Those are always fun!

    6. Nicki Name*

      Some of my coworkers are having a weekly Zoom happy hour where practically no one drinks and no one is required to show up but those who do typically play party games. Some of the Jackbox Party Pack games and Codenames Online (http://codenames.game) have been favorites.

    7. Senor Montoya*

      We recently did an activity where we showed everyone our most recent photo on our phones and mist recent photo of ourselves. We have several new hires so it was a fun way for them to meet us and for the rest of us to see each other. Strictly optional too.

    9. Kage*

      We just did one where everyone showed their favorite souvenir/momento from a past trip. It was nice since no one can go anywhere and everyone could relive memories.

    10. Ronda*

      I liked one where everyone gave the DJ a favorite song to play. he played and folks guessed who picked that song. we did 1 or 2 per meeting for a while.

    11. virtual meetings to the death*

      we just did one for our weekly Zoom meeting: we all chose a virtual background (in video settings) of our ideal vacation place and then each person talked for a few minutes about their choice

    12. JustaTech*

      I’ve done a scavenger hunt type thing that was pretty fun: put up the list for everyone to see and set a really short timer (2 minutes) and see what folks manage to collect. We did things like “something alive” “a rock” “a hair tie” “a pencil” “cheese” like really random, non-risque or expensive household items.

  83. Stephen!*

    Is it too late to send a reply to a rejection? I got a rejection email on Monday and I was really bummed because it had been a really great interview and the job/company sounded fantastic. But it has been the week from hell, even aside from rejection, and I am just now catching my breath. I would have liked to send a gracious thanks and what not, but would it just look weird four days later? To reply, or not to reply?

    2. Kathenus*

      Definitely still reply. Four days is nothing, especially in this new world where all lines of time seem to blur. Sorry it didn’t work out, but sending a polite response has no downside and can be positively received which could help you in the future.

  84. Ms. Cellophane*

    Stressful week at work. My company laid of my cowork who had been with there for 30 years. It was a shock. And her work was reallocated to the rest of us, of course. They also laid off other people at other locations. But then they went and hired summer associates, which blows my mind.

    And then the long term partner of a different coworker died this week. We all knew him for years. I’m sad for my coworker.

    2020 sucks. That is all.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. They’re saving money.

        And yes – 2020 is a dumpster fire. I need this year to be over now.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          On paper, maybe, but I always have to wonder: Training and on-boarding those summer associates is an opportunity cost, since that’s time employees are not doing their primary job. So…are they really saving money in the long run…?

          Just rhetorical musings.

  85. PB&J*

    I’m pregnant and dealing with severe morning sickness. My role is thankfully wfh due to the pandemic and my employer has been sensible about it. But I’ve been forced to work from bed for the last two weeks and this will probably continue for at least several more weeks. The tricky part is I’ve only been in this role for 2 months, though I’ve been with the company for 3 years, so I’m worried that disclosing and asking for time off will color the new boss’s opinion of me. The company is family friendly and my old boss was great during my first pregnancy. This is definitely hitting my productivity but my current boss hasn’t had any concerns about my work so far. Should I continue trying to tough it out? Or disclose? I’m pretty miserable and time off would be a huge relief.

    1. Buttons*

      Congratulations!
      You have been there for 3 years, it doesn’t matter what position you are in, you still have 3 years of history and benefits. I wouldn’t disclose that you are pregnant yet, but you are allowed to take PTO or a sick day if you need to, and you don’t have to tell them why. Just request in the normal way.
      Good luck and I hope the all day morning sickness passes soon!

    2. Green Goose*

      Congrats! I’m pregnant too and due really soon. I was super sick for the first 20 weeks. I was nauseated every single day (ALL day) and then was getting sick so often that I needed an IV at one point and lost more than ten pounds during that time. I had originally planned on telling my boss around the 20-week mark but because I was so sick and needed the accommodation, I just told her and then it made it a lot easier.

      But this is a really personal choice, so like Buttons, I think that you are fine to just ask for regular PTO since you’ve been there for years and then when you do announce it’ll make more sense but if coming up with excuses is starting to stress you out (like it was for me) and you trust your boss, you can just tell them your situation.

      I thankfully magically lost nausea at 21 weeks, hopefully yours passes too because it’s rough!

  86. StellaBella*

    Well I just started a new 8 month contract at a place that is moderately flexible. I take a train to work, wear a mask, wash my hands like 10 times a day, and will be working at home some days soon. I have our local covid app on my phone (I am not in the US) and am hoping all goes ok. I am managing my risk ok overall but still worry. We have rising cases so….yeah.

  87. Flaxseed*

    Any advice on how to smooth things over with the boss? I thought that we were still working from home, but found out that we have to be in the office. (Higher ups sent an email that I missed or don’t remember.) I was also supposed to turn something in at end of June, but didn’t receive the info until this week. They can back date it, but boss isn’t too happy with me. Monday is going to be fun, not… Coworkers are probably gossiping about me, but I can’t control that.

    Any advice on ways to make it better? My one coworker takes 2 hour lunches, yet never gets into trouble because he can smooth talk his way out of. He and the boss are friends and he’s the favorite. Then there’s the rest of us…

    1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Inwardly I’m thinking management skipped a step, or did a really bad job informing people, for it to be possible that someone would have genuinely missed the news that your office is reopening. (Do you have a good enough handle on your inbox that you could verify whether you actually received it? I’d be wondering if I was accidentally left off the email)

      Obviously that won’t help you back into your boss’s good graces, though. Probably best to apologize sincerely and assuming your boss accepts your apology, write it off as one of the many bizarre things that’s happened during these strange times. The assignment being turned in late when you didn’t have the information needed is a separate matter, and hopefully you and your boss can approach it separately.

    2. Alianora*

      One of my coworkers regularly misses meetings and other things that everyone else in the office knows about. We’ve verified that it isn’t a calendaring issue. He’s just really bad at that stuff, or he doesn’t care. He always apologizes profusely if it’s pointed out to him, but tbh that matters very little to me – it’s changed behavior that I want.

      In your case, I’m not sure if this is a regular thing (my guess is no, but it’s hard to tell. ) If it’s just a one-off mixup, I think it’ll fade pretty quickly. In my experience people are forgiving about mistakes if it doesn’t show a pattern. Everyone’s been there before. I’d still apologize to your boss, but honestly try not to stress about it too much. Probably less awkward if you break the ice and mention it to your coworkers, like “Man, I’m so embarrassed I missed that!”

      If it’s a regular thing… I think what your boss will want most is for you to stop missing these things, and to demonstrate that you have a plan to fix it. Maybe by being more organized with your email. I’d tell him the specific actions you plan to take. This might also apply if it isn’t a regular problem for you, but you aren’t generally on good terms with your boss or he’s been known to hold mistakes against people.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It might make you feel better if you ran the search function on your email to see if you actually got the email. I have had so many dropped or lost emails…. it’s scary to me that people rely on email.

      With two missing emails I am wondering if your boss got your address mixed with someone else’s.

      Some times my boss and I have been able to backtrack and realize that the email was never sent, or it was sent on the day that a Big Life Event occurred, etc. Some explanation becomes apparent.

      I can’t tell but did you miss the reopen start date for the office? I am going to assume you did because that is the more difficult setting.
      So what I have done in the past (when I missed Very Important Meeting with CEO and died a thousand deaths) I said, “I did not get the message about the meeting. I am upset/embarrassed about this because as you know this is not in keeping with what you see of my work. I would have been there if I had know I should be there. I understand your upset and most certainly I will do more double checks so this does not happen again.”

      In my story The Boss’ Fav was supposed to tell me to go to the meeting. sigh. Well, the boss had to go through the usual threat to write me up and so on. Rather than fighting it, I simply said, “I understand. I agree it’s a problem. I will work to make sure this never happens again.”
      It never happened again. I did tell her that I wanted directives to come from her as other people did not seem to be a workable method.

      It would be interesting and helpful to know if you got the email to work in the office.

      Try, try, try not to think about Golden Child. It won’t help you get through this right now. Focus on what you want to say and developing something that is to the point of the current matter.
      My Golden Child up and left one day. They said something about the boss that was “unforgivable” and they were ostracized for it, so they left. Sadly that unforgivable thing was something all of us had said at one point but we didn’t get caught. Truth hurts I guess.

  88. Navigating your own privilege in your career*

    I’d love to hear people’s thoughts on how we, as individuals, should think about and take action on addressing racial disparities in our workplaces (or fields) — and how other factors should or shouldn’t affect our choices about how to act. I’m asking about personal ethics and choices, not legalities.

    Some background on what I’ve been thinking about: My husband and I are white. We both grew up middle class; he on the higher end of “middle,” me on the lower end. Our current household income is high; we’re in the top decile of household income for our state. We’ve been talking about whether we should seek promotions, or whether part of our role as people with race privilege can be to step back from opportunities so as not to take up space that has been denied to other people. I’m not comfortable making that choice — it seems “unfair” that we shouldn’t be able to move up in our careers — but I don’t want my first reaction to go unchallenged.

    My husband works in an industry that is heavily white and male at the senior leadership level. His level at his company (director/senior director) is relatively diverse; above him it gets a lot more white and male. He is a star in his company, has (white, male) champions, and is rising rapidly. He’s wondering whether it’s just that he accelerate in his career when at least some of his success is based on the racial and economic advantages he’s had, and the support he gets from other white men.

    I work in the nonprofit sector. In the beginning of my career, my workplaces were almost entirely white. That has changed over the past decade, both because of the particulars of my more recent employers, and because of efforts in my sub-field to address racism in our work and center the experiences of Indigenous people and people of color. This emphatically a good and necessary thing. But it does feel, at this point, like my race is an active hindrance to being promoted (or shifting into working in philanthropy, which is a direction I’ve been exploring). This is obviously what people of color have experienced for generations (and still do, far more than me), so I don’t mean to suggest that I’m facing any injustice. But I’m not sure what it should mean for my own next steps. I was laid off last month, and as I seek my next role I wonder whether there are roles I shouldn’t apply to or opportunities I shouldn’t pursue. (An example: a foundation posted a role that is explicitly designed to bring new people into philanthropy, which is notoriously difficult to break into — it’s very much a “who you know” wink-wink-nudge-nudge process. Great! I’m an outsider and would love to break into that world. But I’m pretty sure the subtext of the job posting is that they are aiming to bring people of color into philanthropy; is it wrong — or would it be viewed as wrong by the hiring committee — to apply for this role?)

    I am not at all interested in hearing about the the legalities of any of this, or indignant responses from other white folks about the unfairness of “affirmative action” or “quotas.” But I’d love to hear about how folks thoughtfully consider these kinds of issues for themselves.

    1. Annony*

      Realistically, passing up on opportunities will most likely result in other white people getting the promotions and jobs. It would be better for your husband to keep moving up the ladder while also actively mentoring and advocating for people with less privilege.

      I don’t think you would be wrong to apply for the program that you are interested in based on possible subtext. If it is a program aimed at POC, you won’t be selected.

      1. Annony*

        I should add that if he were one of two finalists and the other was from an underrepresented minority and he felt that they were at least as qualified as he was for the position, that is when it would make sense to step back.

        2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

          +1 on all this.

          Definitely the way for your husband to make the most impact is to move up the ladder and be proactive about not just hiring more POC, but also seeing that they’re progressing into leadership roles.

          Also, if it would be an appropriate step for his workplace, there are webinars or other training programs for people who want to work towards actively anti-racist policies in workplace settings. As a leader, he may have more sway to bring these sorts of practices and policies into his company.

      2. The Original K.*

        Yes. If OP’s husband is a rising star, he may be able to influence the hiring pipeline, for example. Is everybody they hire “male, pale, and Yale?” (I read that here – I wish I knew what commenter said it!) Maybe he can convince them to include historically Black colleges in the recruiting pipeline. Maybe he can set an example for pay transparency, so women and POC know if they’re being paid fairly. Maybe he can personally mentor non-white employees and make room for them at the top. (As a Black woman, it’s very disheartening when leadership teams are all white and/or male, because it tells me there’s only so far I can go at that organization.) The higher up he goes, the more of a position he is in to make anti-racist changes.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yup. He’s in a great position to be the change he wants to see.

          As far as your example, I’d pass on that role if you truly think they want to have a minority in it. You will have many other opportunities – the minorities will not.

        2. Nita*

          I really like your suggestion about recruiting at historically Black colleges. My company leadership is taking suggestions to make meaningful change, and I will pass this on to them.

    2. Cat*

      I highly doubt being white is a hindrance to you moving up in your field so I guess I’d spend some time questioning why you think that.

      1. Barb*

        Agreed, that was pretty strange. But yeah, if all things became equal, and a group that formerly had to be twice as good to get half as much is now treated fairly, and you were never in that disadvantaged group… It’s true that you won’t be able to float your way to the top anymore. You’ll have to be equally as good. It’s not like we’re close to there, though.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I look at some recent instances in Hollywood, where white performers negotiated pay equity for castmates of color as part of their contract, basically presenting them as a “package deal.”

      The purpose of privilege is to lift up others. If you’re in a situation where you’re actually up against candidates of color for an internal promotion or something, that might be a time to advocate for them over yourself. Certainly if you get into a position with hiring influence, use it for good.

      But I’m not sure how not applying helps anyone. You aren’t giving the position to a nonwhite candidate, because it’s not yours to give.

    4. Taniwha Girl*

      In addition to what others have said, keep in mind that we are fighting for systemic change.

      You and your husband individually getting one job or the other, or removing yourselves from consideration, is not really the focus. I’m not sure how being unambitious will help POC take your space since you’re not the one making the decision here.

      The focus is lifting up POC and other minorities systemically. So how can you use your privilege to ensure more POC, women, LGBTQIA+ etc. are hired and promoted to management roles? What can you do to ensure salary equity and transparency? What can you do to get the wheels of systemic injustice to grind to a halt and then start up in the opposite direction?

  89. Jasmine*

    So I’ve just applied for a temporary assistant librarian job in a public library (3 months with an option to extend). I’m partway through my LIS masters (in the UK) and have no actual library experience, thought it would be a good idea to get some and this advert didn’t specify needing the qualification.

    My question is: if they do offer me an interview, how do I find out about what they’re doing to protect their staff and patrons against coronavirus? I want to make sure they have adequate PPE and are supporting the library workers, but don’t want to come across like I don’t want the job! Any advice?

    1. Kara S*

      In my last interview, I asked “how has COVID changed the way your company operates and what kind of safety measures are being taken?”, “do you plan to make any long-term changes due to COVID?”, and “in the event of another rise in cases, how will the office be responding?”.

      I would also make it clear what measures you plan to take based on what they offer. For example, if they say “we have the option to work from home” (not sure if that works with your job), you could say “great, I will definitely be taking you up on that and would like to work from home until X”. You could also say that safety measures are extremely important to you, so you want to make sure that you and the company are aligned on how to respond to the pandemic.

      The interview will probably also give you an idea of how they operate now. If no one is wearing masks, the interviewer is overly close, or you’re meeting in a small room with no air circulation, it will tell you a lot. I recently had an interview that had these warning signs but insisted they were taking COVID seriously… I wish I had used the interview setup as more of an accurate guide for what was going on. Instead, I took their answers at face value and have been struggling to feel safe at work.

      1. Jasmine*

        Thanks Kara- sorry to hear your company is being so cavalier!

        The job I applied for is at a public library, so working from home isn’t really an option! I like your question about safety measures though so I might steal that :-)

    2. Morning reader*

      Cool thing about public libraries is that they are public. Their website will probably explain what they are doing, Covid-wise. Then, you can visit the library and observe incognito… even easier if you are wearing a mask! It’s a good way to scope out the place, is their children’s area on a separate level, do they have a YA area, or a cafe, how close is Ref to Circ, how do they shelve materials, and so on. Fodder for your interview, either to ask intelligent questions or to show familiarity with their operations.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep here in the US libraries put it on their website and FB page.
        This is because patrons want to know! Don’t forget libraries get a lot of older people so they are going to be sure to answer those types of question upfront without making people ask.

        1. Jasmine*

          The situation with public libraries here in the UK is that they’re kind of a mess atm. Funding cuts, the service being farmed out to external contractors, the library workers themselves having to fight against local authorities for the most basic of supplies. And this particular one hasn’t reopened yet so while yes, in an ideal world, I’d be able to go visit, it’s not realistic.

  90. Nixologist*

    I’m working, in a bar, in a pandemic, and the resulting anxiety is really damaging. We’re no longer getting any sort of “Covid pay”. Customers have not changed their behavior one bit, and soon we are going back to full capacity, which essentially means body to body occupancy.
    I have to quit, but I’m terrified of what prospects I will have if I do.
    It sounds crazy but I’m so envious of everyone who laments returning to the office with masks on. That sounds so safe compared to my workplace. Any advice on changing careers in a pandemic and economic fire storm?

    1. Helen J*

      Returning to the office with masks on gives some protection, but it not completely safe. I found out by accident that one of my coworkers is out pending COVID results, but none of us have been told. So even though we have been wearing masks and (sort of) social distancing, if he is positive, who knows how many of us have to quarantine (without pay!) and may test positive. It sucks all around and I’m sorry you are in a tough spot. Much sympathy to you!

      1. Nixologist*

        I did not mean to imply I think a masked office setting is “safe” by normal standards, I very much don’t agree with the push to return to offices. But it seems like a more controlled environment than one in which unmasked strangers talk/yell/breathe on and touch me for the bulk of my day. I would be aware if a co-worker exposed me to Covid, but I would never know if a customer has.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      That sounds awful.

      One suggestion is to take a look at what you’re really good at and find a creative way to leverage that.

      My S-i-L has been a waitress/bartender for 30 years, and her place of work shut down permanently. She helped an ex-coworker file for unemployment because she also has a lot of experience navigating the benefits system. That person referred her to her friends, and it became a side business/main income right now.

    3. blepkitty*

      No advice, but you have my sympathy. This is terrible.

      (I handled graduating with a BA in 2009 by going to graduate school. The recession was well enough handled by the time I graduated that I got a job eventually. But in this situation, you’d also want to predict which fields are going to survive, and I’m not sure anyone knows right now. Unless you want to go into virology, that is.)

      1. Nixologist*

        I have an MFA for similar reasons, but it turns out that was just the most expensive mistake of my life and not something I’ve been able to leverage into work

        1. blepkitty*

          Oh, ouch, I’m sorry. I dearly want an MFA (creative writing), but I know I’m not destined for an actual career in that.

          Also, you’ve reminded me that I should clarify that everything has to be done right. I know of people who have my degree but haven’t found jobs after years of trying. Usually, they failed to follow (or couldn’t follow– f*** unpaid internships!) other necessary steps, like finding internships and pre-/paraprofessional work in the field before graduating. So getting a degree alone is actually not advice I’d recommend, unless it’s in a very in-demand field.

  91. Daphne (UK)*

    Any advice for looking after social media for small charities/non profits? I work for a rural community arts ‘hub’ and we hope to be opening next month but our social media presence is amateur at best. Out of a 5 person team, 3 of us are Facebook admins and take turns in promoting various events, responding to messages so there’s no dedicated staff member as such. How much time do you devote to it per week? How can I politely let my non-tech savvy colleague that the posts she does aren’t great (pictures aren’t correct size, typos etc)

    1. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      When my husband owned a small biz years ago (a luncheonette & soda shoppe), I was the social media admin, and he contributed occasionally.
      * We used both Facebook and Instagram at the time.
      * Post at least 3-5 times each week, every 2 days is good, and on weekends. There are articles about the optimal times of day for the best social media audience reach, and frequencies. Google this, it’s interesting!
      * You can assign the photographic images to one of you, text composition to another, event posts, etc. We assigned message responses to a worker who did not have strengths in other areas.
      * Colorful photos and pics of people and venues/locations are good, especially for events and special announcements. Have someone take a pic of your team and share that. People like to make a personal connection.
      * Post engaging content, such as a poll, where readers can offer their input.
      * When short on time, a quick FB/IG “story” gets alot of views because stories appear at the top of the social media feed.
      * Set your posts for “public” for maximum viewer access.
      * Always use #hashtags!! In every post! Place the # directly in front of the topic to highlight, like #arts #communityevent #city #town #date and other fun phrases. This will help your posts appear when people search those hashtag topics.
      * Look at (and follow!) the social media pages of other similar organizations, and like/share their posts as well. They will appreciate it, often return the favor, and their followers will see that you follow their page and will likely follow your page too.
      Try these tips, they worked for us! Good luck! :)

    2. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      PS – Idea for your non-tech-savvy colleague: Have her narrate a short video to post. This is a great option for someone who is camera shy. They contribute in a unique way. Or someone could take the video of her narrating and doing a show-and-tell type of thing for an event or such. It was a great solution for our similar situation. Don’t do a live video at first, you/she can view the saved video on your phone and do over if needed. And videos get alot of engagement too!

    3. RagingADHD*

      I run social media for a nonprofit as a freelancer. They have separate donor and client facing profiles. That includes blogs and a donor email newsletter.

      I post 2-3 x per week on both sets of profiles, about 1x per month on the blog, and newsletters about 4x per year.

      There are also 3 big fundraising pushes per year, for the spring & fall events plus year-end.

      I spend about 15-20 hours per month most of the time. During the runup to big events, it can be more like 35-45. So that’s 4-5 hrs per week in slower times, and 9-12 hours/wk in busy times.

      The most important thing is to have a plan so you’re not just posting everything on the fly. You want some live/timely posts, but prescheduled content will give you a lot more control.

      One thing that’s helped me a lot is using Hootsuite’s bulk scheduler. So I can put together a sequence of themed posts and upload them all at once.

      So for example, the third Wednesday of each month is for inspirational quotes. It took maybe 4 hours to put them together with images, and I have them preset for the whole year.

      Canva is a great free tool that gives you templates for any kind of social post. (BTW, if you do multiple platforms and you’re in a hurry, Instagram sized pics look fine on FB & Twitter, but not the other way around. So if you’re just doing one pic, crop it for IG.)

      There are a LOT of free resources out there for planning nonprofit content calendars.

      I don’t know any tactful way to tell your colleague her posts suck, but maybe introducing some planning & brand standard templates as a time saver might help raise the game.

      If you’re willing to take the SMM on by yourself, you could pitch a branding campaign and some sample themed series (historical artists? quote memes? your orgs greatest hits?) to your boss.

  92. Nacho*

    Is it unprofessional for me to be snacking during video meetings? I’ve gotten into the habit of eating a light breakfast and a light snack of popcorn a few hours later, but occasionally I have back to back meetings in the morning that makes it hard to grab anything until lunch. Should I just suck it up, or try a different snack I can eat quicker?

    1. JustaTech*

      I think it depends on the kind of meeting (informal group chat vs big bosses vs outside folks), but probably never popcorn (it’s too loud and too obvious and you look a bit like a meme).

      That said, I never argue with folks keeping their blood sugar up; hangry is a real thing and no one’s at their best when they’re starving. So can you go with either something super quick to eat (like a granola bar) or maybe something you can drink out of a mug? And if you do pick a granola bar, please remember to mute! (Or I guess you could just turn off your video while you’re chewing.)

    2. nep*

      I would say it depends on the ‘tone’ of the meeting, and whether others are having lunch or snacking.
      Even in Zoom discussions that aren’t work meetings, I find it distracting to have a participant eating, but that might just be me.
      If you find that hunger is really affecting your clarity and presence at the meeting, maybe a good nutritious smoothie in a tumbler or cup?

    3. Me*

      All I can say as an observer whos ex boss eats daily on what is a 15 minute meeting…I do not enjoy watching other people eat and its not super professional. In his case he could easily wait, I understand yours is a bit different.

      That said, your talking about missing a snack not a meal. Could you eat a heartier breakfast on days you have back to back meetings? Is missing a snack a major problem or is it just an inconvenience.

    4. Annony*

      Can you turn off your camera and mute yourself while eating? If so that fixes the problem. Otherwise I would eat something quicker to minimize the distraction.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Was about to say the same thing. Maybe start the meeting with the camera on, then when it’s a good time, turn off your camera and have the snack, but turn it back on before you sign off so you don’t seem checked out.

    5. No Tribble At All*

      My company never has video on during calls, and we also have a strong “mute yourself when not talking” culture, so I regularly eat breakfast while on calls. If you’ll be talking a lot, try a quieter snack. If no one can tell you’re eating, go ahead.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Same here. I’m so grateful my company doesn’t use video calls, just audio.

    6. LQ*

      Do you have to be on video? And if for some weird reason they need to HEAR you, you have to figure something better out. I don’t normally have a problem with people eating or the sounds of it (though a lot of people here do), but on audio it’s far louder and weirder sounding and is really annoying, especially if it cuts over other people talking. Your ears and brain together do a really good job normally of selectively tuning out sounds you don’t want to hear, amplifiying sounds you do, and frankly just ignoring sounds all together. The ear-brain equivilant of not seeing the bear when watching the basketball. But computers are not good at that and really bad at it when it comes to mixed audio. Audio from the same room your brain mixes for you. Audio through dozens of computers is a disaster unless you’ve got a live audio engineer working it, please PLEASE do not eat during a meeting with your sound on.

      I’d strongly suggest you mute and turn off video and you’ll be fine.

  93. JustaTech*

    A good thing!

    I went on a snipe hunt at work (a snipe hunt, for those that aren’t familiar, is where you send someone off to look for something that doesn’t exist) and do you know what? I bagged myself 8 snipes!
    That’s right, they said “oh, I don’t know if that was done, I don’t know if the data exists” and I asked the right people and found the data (and spent a whole day in the mostly-closed office scanning it) and analyzed it and wrote the reports and will finally get a thing done that should have been done *cough* years ago.

    *sings* You’re Welcome!

      1. JustaTech*

        Thank you!
        I’ll admit I’m very pleased with myself. I might have an extra cookie with lunch. :)

  94. Starving Student*

    Hi everyone, I have a sort of work related question. How can you work in a group when you find one group member to be insanely annoying, without resorting to murder?

    I am finishing up my undergrad, and will be going to grad school at the same institution. COVID has turned everything upside down- the last class I needed to take was canceled this spring and rescheduled for August. This is an intense class that involves a lot of outdoor field work. I’m not sure how that will take shape yet and how much teamwork will be involved. One person in this group of 10 is not only deeply stupid but nails-on-a-chalkboard annoying. He’s like the Michael Scott of our discipline. He does not grasp the basic fundamentals of our field. He has been *almost* caught cheating on exams and projects a few times. He also encompasses many characteristics I think are stereotypical of white men who grew up privilaged- he talks over people, doesn’t listen to women, etc. I also don’t trust him to adhere to any mask and social distancing policies my school may have. At this point, I’m afraid I’ve reached the ‘bitch eating crackers’ state of annoyance- his name itself annoys me. And I think he knows this, and enjoys being annoying.

    I will have to work with him in some capacity for three weeks. Since I will still be at this school next year I want to maintain a good relationship with my professors, even if I’m not in the same program. How do I get out of the bitch eating crackers mentality? How do I not toss him into the ocean? I would love to hear any suggestions you may have.

    Thank you,
    Starving Student

    1. Academic Librarian too*

      I wish I knew. School is not work. Group work in school has always been a horror to me. The only consequence of someone not pulling their weight or behaving in an obnoxious manner is that MY grade goes down. My experience in academic work groups is ‘yep there will be that person’ The way I do it is is I thank them for their hard work (not) and do all the work myself. (yes I do identify with Hermione why do you ask?)
      That said getting out of the pissy mindset. Might not work for you but for two solid weeks I prayer for them. Every morning. Every night, I ask the higher power that I choose to call God to give to them all that I want for myself. Good health, medical coverage, enough food, safe shelter, clean clothes. That they be surrounded by loved ones and bathed in the light. That they have engaging work and be paid for it. This I pray.
      I have also been known to draw cartoons where they are being torn limb from limb.

      2. JustaTech*

        If you’re not the praying type you can also try a “loving kindness” meditation where you work on sending kind thoughts to a person that’s driving you bonkers (and also someone you like/love and someone you’re indifferent to). There are lots of guided meditations online.

        I have found this useful when dealing with some senior people at work who were *deeply* condescending and annoying.

      3. Kathenus*

        Using some of the excellent suggestions you’ve been receiving, another helpful mindset is to realize that if you can succeed in working professionally with an idiot, it is an incredibly important job skill to have – that you will unfortunately have to use throughout your career. So view the whole process the way you would any difficult work challenge, and realize that the thick skin and techniques you develop with him will help you for years.

    2. JustaTech*

      You’ve got a couple of different issues to address here.
      First is that you don’t know that you even will have to interact with Bozo, and that uncertainty makes it hard to plan. There’s nothing you can do about that except acknowledge it.

      Second is that you don’t think he’ll adhere to masking or distancing. For that you should prepare some scripts for what you’re going to say if he’s randomly taking off his mask next to you or whatever. Once you know what the class will look like you can also ask your professor for guidelines on what’s expected and how everyone should respond to people who aren’t being safe. (There are lots of ways for fieldwork to be unsafe, so that *should* be all addressed upfront.)

      Third is that Bozo doesn’t know what he’s doing. There the best thing you can do is agree with the rest of your team to put him somewhere that he can’t do too much damage. This is super annoying and will likely mean more work for all of you, but it’s the best way to contain his ignorance.

      Fourth is that he’s awful, and honestly I don’t have a good suggestion. There’s the “anthropologist” approach where you think of him like you’re studying a very different culture. There’s the “ignore him” approach, which I personally have never managed. The best I can offer is try not to complain about him too much to your professors. They probably think he’s just as annoying as you do, but it’ll put you in a better light with them for keeping your complaints about him strictly factual and project-related. (It’s not complaining or whining to say “Bozo removed his mask repeatedly in the car on the way to the site” or whatever academic malfeasance he gets up to.)

      Good luck!

      1. Starving Student*

        Thank you for your advice. Dividing up the issues is very helpful, and helps me realize what is in my power to do something about and what is not. I will do my best to think of him like an anthropologist and not complain to the professors. If I can do that for 10 hours, I can complain to my partner at home over a cold beer.

    3. Asenath*

      Talk to yourself (silently!). Tell yourself “this too will pass”, cross the days off on a calendar, do whatever it takes to remind yourself that he is a short-term annoyance. Meanwhile, protect yourself. Be polite and professional when you have to speak to him (mentally congratulating yourself on your acting skills, and getting over any feeling that you’re being hypocritical). Make sure your part of the project is done impeccably. Depending on how it’s structured, you might need to check out his work too, if there is truth to the rumors that he cheats and any work is submitted as a group project with your name on it. You do NOT want to be associated with that if this is the time he’s caught. Follow your school’s rules about masks and practice a few stock dismissive phrases if he’s the type to try to tease or mock you. Always be polite but distant with him – again, think of it as acting, not as being a hypocrite – and practice letting anything he says slide off you like water off a duck’s back. It sounds like he’s the type who would enjoy any sign that he’s “getting to you”, so don’t give him what he wants. And, as I said before, short term annoyance. Three weeks is nothing; in four he’ll be out of your life forever, and it won’t matter how many annoying characteristics he has.

    4. KoiFeeder*

      I had the Hate Log which was a record (with dates and times) of every time Bozo failed to pull his weight, did not engage in proper procedure, or claimed to/actually broke the rules. Now, the Hate Log is not very good for your mental health/state of mind and it may in fact contribute to you wanting to murder him even more, but being able to cite it at your professor when you’re working on a project with Bozo and you know you’re going to get a poor grade because of his actions does help preserve your GPA.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      OMG. They are still doing group projects in colleges? wth.

      That was the number one thing that made me think that my tuition money was a total waste. The over reliance on group projects boggles my mind. The one prof who seemed to understand this concept, ended up charged with a sex offense. God help us.

      Do what you gotta do to have quality work done and done on time. If you have to do the whole thing, then do it. Seriously. There is nothing in the work world that will ever be as bad as this.
      My last team experience was the best one. One or two other people in the group plus myself (2-3 people) actually showed up for each meeting. One other person actually did the work along with me. The second person tried from time to time. Nice person, though. So the prof told us to do X. We did X. Then the prof said,”What did you do X for, are you stupid?”
      I wrote some stuff and we handed it in. We came in second place out of 7 teams. (The other teams did a horrible job.) It was the best team experience I had because two people actually talked to me through out the course. (Talking to your team mates was required I guess.) The same two were actually concerned that we did well. We all got the second highest grade in the class. Except for #5 person who never showed up and never logged into the team activity.
      Yep. This was the best team experience I had, no snark there. All the other experiences were nightmares.

      Push through it. Do the best you can, because we have to be able to live with ourselves in the long run.

  95. Academic Librarian too*

    Had a successful meeting this week with my supervisor. I am a super independent operator. We barely speak unless there is a crises. (does a pandemic count?) I have a face-to-face meeting about every quarter. We agreed that even though campus is opening back up, I would continue to work remotely (being in a high risk category) I gave in a little and confirmed that I would continue to work on a high level project even though it is PIA during normal times. She agreed with the moratorium on projects that I cannot complete right now without inordinate stress.
    I admit to a lot of anxiety leading up to the meeting and super relieved that I can continue to do the “next-right-thing.”
    Anyone else have a successful interaction with a manager that they thought might go badly?

    1. Taniwha Girl*

      I had a conversation with a manager to figure out whether I was being discriminated against. It definitely felt like it and I was terrified of being sidelined or facing pushback. My boss reassured me that that was not the case, that it was a coincidence it had turned out like that, and it really helped build trust with my manager.

  96. employee started discussing disco pants on zoom call*

    No – wait, my bad – what he actually said was “discrepancies”. My home internet runs at a snail’s pace so zoom calls are challenging even when voice only. Anyone else hear one thing then realise their coworker actually said something else?

    1. Schmitt*

      “Judith will be handing that”

      “Is she new?”

      “What?”

      “Judith?”

      “I said the unit…”

  97. Ray Gillette*

    Thanks to everyone who responded to my post a couple of weeks ago about writing tests. Due to time constraints I decided to just ask for writing samples from the people who did well enough at the phone screen to move to the interview stage. I was overthinking things due to the pressure to move quickly and my relative inexperience. Sometimes less is more.

  98. Thank You Notes*

    What is the etiquette regarding post-interview thank you notes for video interviews? I’ve had a couple of phone/video interviews recently, and had mixed outcomes:
    1. Interviewers proactively offered their email IDs, I sent thank you notes
    2. Interviewer didn’t offer their email ID and was surprised when I guessed their ID and emailed a thank you note (“how did you get my email ID?”) But it worked out okay, they looked on it favourably
    3. Interviewer didn’t offer their email ID. I asked, and they told me to ask HR for it to make sure it wasn’t violating policy to give it out (they said it nicely, didn’t sound annoyed). HR didn’t reply to me so I’m not sending a thank you note
    I’m just so confused!

    1. Buttons*

      1 and 2 are perfect. For 3 you could send a note to HR and say:
      HR person,
      Thank you for contating me and arrainging for the interview, could you please forward this to interviewer.
      Dear Interviewer,
      your thank you note.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Yup, going through the HR contact is what I’ve done several times. And in a few cases, the person I sent the note to emailed me back (and now I have their email address, muahahahaha).

      2. Thank You Notes*

        Oh that’s a great idea, I’ll definitely use this next time. Thank you for replying!

    2. Annie Moose*

      I would not try to guess an interviewer’s email, personally! That feels a bit invasive. I’d either ask for it at the end of the interview or ask whoever your contact is (e.g. if you were contacted by an HR person) or maybe send a LinkedIn message if you connect with them. If none of those are possible options, then I would let it go. You don’t want to come across as pushy–if the interviewer declines to give you their email address, then that means they probably don’t want you messaging them directly.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        if the interviewer declines to give you their email address, then that means they probably don’t want you messaging them directly.

        Not necessarily – sometimes people just forget to give it.

        1. Annie Moose*

          I mean if you ask for it and the person actively declines giving it to you. In that situation you should absolutely not try to be pushy about it!

          1. Thank You Notes*

            Oh no, that’s not what happened in #2. It just didn’t come up and we ran out of time. I had already corresponded with people from the organisation so it was really easy to figure out the email ID. But I hated it (it felt intrusive to me) and will not be doing it again, even though they were impressed with my resourcefulness.
            For #3, I won’t be sending a note because HR didn’t reply to my mail asking for the email ID. Next time I’ll just send the note to HR to forward, but in this situation I feel like I’d just be spamming them
            Thank you for replying!

  99. Jay*

    Hello, I’m 28 and graduated with a (useless) degree in Kinesiology in 2015. In the 5 years since then, I’ve been working part time jobs for near minimum-wage. I currently work in a grocery store part time.

    Is it possible for me to get a “real” career at this point in my life? Something with a salary, full time hours, benefits, etc. I’ve been applying to thousands of office positions in the last few years and haven’t been able to land a single interview.

    Is my useless degree that much of a red flag? Am I stuck working minimum wage retail for the rest of my life, even with a college degree?

    1. Me*

      Well are you applying for jobs you meet the criteria? Typically for office jobs they want so much expereince with say Word or Excel. If you aren’t matching the requirements are there things you can do like take trainings?

      Have you consulted your local workforce serives or similar job placement government agency if it exists? They have a ton of resources.

      1. Jay*

        Yes, I have several certificates including ones Microsoft Office Specialist, and various office/IT-related certs.

        I’ve tried half a dozen temp agencies if that’s what you mean. They take my information down and then never reach out to me again. I’m guessing they realize I’m not a competitive candidate and don’t bother wasting their time on me.

        1. Me*

          No not temp agencies. Many local county level governments have an office thats dedicated to helping job seekers.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Worksource kind of locations are closed due to pandemic :(

            But they do have websites that you should always check out!

            1. Me*

              Ours is operating services remotely and doing a great job. I recognize thats not necessarily the case everywhere, but I wouldn’t assume theyre closed due to covid

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          No no no no no no!!! you can’t just drop your stuff off at a temp office and wait for them to call.

          I’m a huge fan of temp agencies but you have to remember you’re not just their employee, you’re their “product”. So you have to make them want to “sell you” and prove that you’re “sellable”, despite your resume.

          Temp agencies get a ot of stuff that requires little to no real experience for projects but can get you a lot of feelers out there.

          Call in, check with them, let them know you’re ready to work. This is NOT the same atmosphere as when you’re looking for jobs and talking directly to hiring managers of specific positions. They are not your boss, or your prospective boss. They are your ally and sales-person/wing-person.

          1. Me*

            Yes this too. It’s been a hot second since I used a temp agency but I physically went it and sat through testing. There should be sit downs going on.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              To add to this, when I was temping almost a decade ago, I would look at the agency’s website for job postings and contact the recruiter listed next to the position I was interested in to let them know I wanted to be considered. They didn’t always respond (if they had regular temps they liked to work with and who had a track record with the agency, those people got first dibs on the jobs), but I did manage to get a few positions thanks to my follow up. You have to keep putting yourself in these people’s faces as a temp or they will overlook you due to demand.

          2. The Original K.*

            Yes. During the recession I would call all the temp agencies with which I was registered and tell them I was available for work that day. And when I was working, I called the other agencies & told them I was on assignment for the next two weeks or whatever, and when it ended I resumed letting all the agencies know I was available again. Squeaky wheel and all that – you have to stay on their radar.

    2. Buttons*

      What did you hope to do with a degree in Kinesiology ? What are you interested in? What kind of work appeals to you?

      1. Jay*

        I was hoping to get into Physical Therapy school, unfortunately my grades weren’t competitive enough to get in.

        Well I was interested in fitness/rehabilitation, but I’m also capable of working many jobs if given the opportunity. I have various IT/microsoft office/supply chain management/etc certifications. So ideally some sort of IT position now that my degree is worthless, but anything in an office would be amazing

        1. Buttons*

          Your degree isn’t worthless, you have an education.
          I would work on your resume and your cover letter. I would also apply for IT jobs that are in sports related companies- such as sports medicine clinics, sports clubs, fitness center corporate offices, community recreation centers. Your cover letter needs to talk about the certifications you have and how you want to transition to a career that can draw on your extensive IT training as well as your wide variety of experience working in various industries. Take the variety of part time jobs, your degree, and your certifications and turn them into a positive. YOU have to do that and highlight that in your cover letter because the people who are reading your resume and cover letter won’t do it.

          1. KX*

            Other sports related offices: certification non-profits, sport event planners (like 5k companies), sport equipment manufacturers (sales reps, customer service). Also medical device manufacturers, ergonomic equipment, sports publishers (like all those golf academies). Prosthetic companies.

            You also have food experience:
            Food service companies, like supply chain and import/export and shipping logistics. Food waste and recycling.

            You have a degree and office tool knowledge and industry experience. You will get something. It probably is your resume/cover letter.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I don’t know how it goes in the arena of PT, can you get a job working as an assistant to the therapists? I know when my husband went for therapy, there was a person who watched him and helped him do things correctly. She took instruction from someone else but she was the person who dealt with my husband directly. She was very nice, she knew a lot about old cars and she kept him preoccupied with talking about old cars so he forgot his pain and he pedaled away on the stationary bike.

          1. John S*

            I did that in college, it’s called a Physical Therapy Aide. It’s part time, pays minimum wage, and no opportunity for a raise/promotion. It’s meant as a temporary job for students/recent grads until they start grad school

    3. nep*

      Sorry you’re struggling. I don’t see that degree as being a red flag at all. Depends of course in what sort of positions you’re applying for.
      Have you looked into wellness/fitness positions within corporations? I know a woman who was wellness director at the Y where I used to work…She ended up with a great position with a corporation.
      To answer your question–no, you’re not stuck working minimum wage retail for the rest of your life.
      What kind of work do you want to do? Something that uses your degree?

      1. Jay*

        I’ve tried to go the “corporate fitness” route, but they all require masters degrees and years of experience from what I’ve seen on linkedin.

        Well I was interested in fitness/rehabilitation, but I’m also capable of working many jobs if given the opportunity. I have various IT/microsoft office/supply chain management/etc certifications. So ideally some sort of IT position now that my degree is worthless, but anything in an office would be amazing. I’ve been told by several former professors that my degree is essentially useless since I haven’t really used it since graduating.

        Without sounding too desperate, I’d literally do anything in an office environment.

        1. nep*

          You will find something.
          I’m sure you’ve got this covered already, but you can’t let a shred of this desperation or hate for your ‘useless’ degree come across in any part of your search. It is what it is. Getting any four-year degree–whatever the field/subject matter–takes work and discipline.
          List all the things you’ve accomplished and like about your background, and steep in those.

        2. irene adler*

          Supply chain management certification?
          I have no idea as to the depth of the education you received pertaining to this certification, but supply chain management is an avenue you might explore. Especially now as supply chains for many organizations are experiencing ‘unique’ issues getting raw materials into their facility to produce product.

          Suggestion: Might look at ASQ.org and read up on supply chain management. If it sounds like the material you learned via your supply chain cert, maybe get in touch with your local ASQ section. Ask about help with conducting a job search in supply chain management. In addition, might ask about any mentoring, resume review or other assistance (like local job tips or ideas on types of jobs you might pursue via your supply chain management cert) they can extend to you.

          Also, seek out any other professional organizations that specialize in supply chain management. There too, ask about any job search help they might be willing to extend to you.

          Also, have you any project management education/experience? That is an excellent additional skill to couple with supply chain management. Might visit PMI.org to learn about this skill set.

          With the supply chain skills, you’ll want to look into industries you may not have considered before: pharma, medical device, aerospace, electronics.

          2. KX*

            I would read about possible other certifications to learn about what careers but I wouldn’t chase any new ones without corporate experience. PMI stuff especially.

    4. natter*

      I got my foot in the door with office jobs via temp agencies when I was in my 20s. I didn’t even have a degree yet at the time, and it wasn’t a deal-breaker. The experience was enough to help me land permanent office jobs.

      I have a “real” career now and while I don’t love it, it is better than food service.

      1. Jay*

        Do you have any tips for temp agencies? I’ve tried a bunch like AppleOne, Robert Half, Aerotek, etc. The recruiter calls me, gets my resume and basic information and then tells me he/she will contact me whenever something comes up. And then they never contact me again, and don’t respond to any emails.

        Am I just an noncompetitive candidate and they don’t want to waste their time on me?

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Temp agencies are the exception to the “don’t call them” rule. You often have to call them multiple times, early in the morning, and ask if they have any assignments you could be right for. The first time you do it, ask if it’s okay if you call again later in the week; if they say no, don’t, but otherwise keep trying. You can also talk to them about whether there’s anything holding you back from getting assignments.

          I’d guess what’s happening is that you’re applying for office jobs when you’re up against a sea of competition with more direct experience than you have. Temp work will help close that gap.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            In fact, every temp agency that I’ve worked with (and I’ve worked with … at least four of the big ones, plus two or three more little local ones) specifically said call us at least weekly to stay on our radar. I mean, that was a few years back, but.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Yup, I was told this as well. I was also told to by OfficeTeam to browse their website for job listings and then either reach out to the placement agent I was assigned to or the recruiter listed on the job ad to let them know I was interested in that particular job.

              You have to do a lot of legwork for temp agencies to give you the time of day.

    5. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Have you had anyone who you trust take a critical look at your resume and sample cover letter, someone who will be able to provide actionable feedback? Sometimes public libraries offer this service, but you could also reach out to an honest friend, an old professor, or one of your references. I don’t think the degree is standing in your way. The resume and cover letter might not be either, but these things are much easier to change.

      1. Jay*

        I don’t really know anyone in person who’s able to critique my resume, but I’ve used online websites like reddit where other users are able to provide suggestions. I’ll try to get some professional resume help to see if that makes a difference.

        Thanks

    6. Calliope*

      Microsoft and LinkedInLearning are working together to retrain people who are struggling right now. The goal is to get them trained in areas that have a desperate need for qualified people. It sounds like you could benefit from this. Google “Microsoft skilling initiative.” (I know links go into moderation here, and I wanted to make sure you had access as quickly as possible.

    7. Goat girl*

      If you are interested, you might consider getting a medical coding certification (such as from the AAPC). I am guessing based on your degree that you might have a lot of the anatomy stuff figured out already. You can study on your own schedule and it isn’t too expensive. An AAPC certification plus a degree would be impressive to a health insurance company, hospital or provider office. Perhaps you could even work for a physical medicine or PT office. Also, there are opportunities to work for medical software companies (etc.) as a coder with a bachelor’s degree. Lots of possibilities.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Nobody cares what your degree was in. Having a degree at all is an advantage.

      Yes, you can start a career path at any time and be successful. I started my current career in my 40s, and know many others who have done the same.

      You sound incredibly frustrated, and understandably so. If you don’t already have a handle on what opportunities are available and what you want to pursue, it takes a lot of trial and error.

      You are in the midst of that process. Of course it is frustrating! Don’t give up on yourself, and do whatever you can to avoid/counteract bitterness or despondency. They will make your current situation that much more painful, as well as bleeding over into your job search in destructive ways.

      Look for things that refresh your mind & heart, and give you a hopeful attitude. You are going through a hard time, and you need to look after yourself.

  100. Happy Quitter*

    What’s a good way of quitting a current job during this pandemic while there’s also a hiring freeze? I don’t want to leave my current co-workers in a absolute mess but I was offered an opportunity that I can pass up. I was essentially doing half of all the budgeting/accounting paperwork with a team that’s very understaffed (and one person who was hired around the same time as me who is all but useless at his job)?

    I know I’ll have the TALK with my manager about leaving but how do I make sure that people are in a good position once I leave?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Really, not your problem. It’s up to management to figure out how to solve the problem.

    2. blepkitty*

      Document what you do as much as you can for other people and do any trainings that are asked of you, but also remember that this isn’t your burden to carry. It’s your employer’s fault that your team has been understaffed (or the economy’s, but if that’s the case, nobody should blame you for it). It’s not your fault. You have every right to choose not to continue working in a terrible situation.

    3. Buttons*

      Congratulations. Have your resignation letter all written up, and have a transfer of duties list. Then when you call your manager tell them your end date and say that you want to make the transition as painless as possible and help to get them set up for coverage. Let her know you made a list of duties that will need to be transferred and let her know you are willing to help document or train anyone. That is more than enough, it shows you have a good work ethic and helps cement future references if you need them.

      1. Happy Quitter*

        Thank you everyone for the advice! I’m defy going to take a combination of what everyone suggested!

  101. Retail not Retail*

    Does safety trump concerns about being patronizing?

    This is not related to masks and the plague! One of my coworkers struggles to drink enough water during the day. Says she gets too involved in her work. We all remind her at the beginning of the day and at lunch. Sometimes I’ve even asked her over the radio!

    She doesn’t seem to mind or find the reminders annoying, but are they?

    (For context it is kinda cool today – sunny, 86, and only 66% humidity right now. Add in the masks and the fact that she wears long pants – drink some water!)

    1. blepkitty*

      Is this causing actual problems with her work? Or are you worried she’s going to faint and get a work-related injury? If not, leave it alone. The commonly repeated “drink 8 glasses of water per day” is not based on scientific research, and regardless, it’s no more your business that she drinks enough water than if she’s getting enough fiber in her diet.

      1. Retail not Retail*

        I mean… we’re outside. It’s hot.

        Our weekend supervisor told her to carry a water cooler with her – she has it on the cart but she’s not with the cart!

        It’s not healthy not to hydrate… I don’t care how much she drinks she just needs to drink!

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Everyone is wired differently. If she doesn’t seem ill or disoriented or suffering in any way, then one reminder is fine, more than that is a nuisance. You can ask her if she wants you to remind her to drink water, but if she says no, then you should stop. If she complains about being hot or thirsty, then hand her some water. But if she says she feels fine, you should listen to her.

        2. Not for academics*

          Coming from someone who’s working outdoor camps and understands what you’re talking about, MYOB.

    2. Littorally*

      How immediate is the hydration concern? If y’all are working outdoors under the sun and insufficient hydration could be putting her in serious danger of heatstroke or something, that’s pretty different from working indoors in the AC where her worst danger is a bit of a headache.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      Unless this is causing problems with her work, leave her alone. Not everyone needs to drink a lot of water.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nah, it doesn’t matter if you’re being “annoying”. Safety always comes before “feelings” and “telling people I have no real authority over what to do” kind of thing.

      I remind people to drink water all the damn time. Heat stroke is REAL and I’ve seen people end up hospitalized for it. It’s very basic safety concern when you’re in the outside elements.

      We’re an industry full of “Don’t tell me what to do, I’m my own maaaaaaaan.” kind of thick-skulls. And I’m like “Sure you run your own life but right now, drink some damn water, Larry!”

    5. Annie Moose*

      Have you asked her how she feels about the reminders? That’s the best way to find out if they’re annoying or not!

    6. WellRed*

      I’m not seeing where she’s caused a safety issue. I think this would be annoying if I were her. We have different hydration needs.

  102. rayray*

    Just had a weird thing happen.

    I am unemployed and applying for lots of jobs. I just received an email from one about an interview BUT…

    I think it was an invite meant for another candidate. It’s an event link to an interview over Teams. I never spoke to anyone for either a phone screening or to schedule an interview. It also had another person’s name in the subject line, and while at first I wondered if it was the name of the Hiring manager, there were 4 or so people copied on the email and none of them shared a name with this person.

    I wrote back to ask if the invite was meant for someone else. I also indicated that I am still interested in the role if they are conducting interviews. We will see what happens here. It would be pretty funny if I was meant for the reject pile and somehow got mixed in here.

    1. rayray*

      Part 2-

      They wrote back and apologized for having sent the wrong invite. They thanked me for the SparkHire video-interview I had done (if you aren’t familiar, it’s a program that records you answering questions for them to review – it is not done live with people)

      She said I am still being considered for the position but it is a slow process. So we shall see.

      1. blepkitty*

        Oh boy. If you do get interviewed, keep an eye out for other signs of incompetence. That was careless of them!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I really wouldn’t think of this as a sign of incompetence…it’s pretty easy to do. If it’s a flag, it’s very pale yellow at best.

          1. blepkitty*

            Emailing the wrong candidate an interview invite isn’t that bad? What if nobody caught it, and they interviewed OP but offered the other candidate the job? Or offered OP the job based on the other candidate’s resume? I always double check email addresses before sending important emails to people not already in my address book.

            1. RagingADHD*

              If they didn’t figure out it was the wrong person in the first 30 seconds of an interview (like, when they saw a different person from the recorded applucation?

              Or greeted OP by the wrong name and got corrected?),

              then everyone involved is too incompetent to have a job at all.

              Including OP.

              Copy-pasting the wrong email address is a typo. Probably made by someine other than the hiring manager.

              An embarassing flub, but hardly indicative that the entire organization literally can’t tell 2 people apart.

  103. Mimmy*

    I’ll be using Microsoft Teams for the first time next Wednesday for one of my volunteer committee meetings. Is it easy to learn? The other virtual platforms I know are Zoom and, to a lesser extent, Google Meets.

    1. Buttons*

      I think Teams is the easiest of all to use. If you aren’t the one running or setting up the meeting you don’t have to do anything but click on the link in the email and it will open up. You can look on YouTube for a few video tutorials. I think it is pretty intuitive.

    2. Lyudie*

      If you have used Zoom, you should be fine with Teams. It’s fairly easy to use and I find it rather similar to Zoom.

    4. JanetM*

      One thing to know about Teams is, when the first person enters the room, it sends a notice to (at least) the meeting organizer. So don’t arrive *too* early!

      On the other hand, you may need to be invited into the room.

      Other than that, I find Teams very straightforward and easy to use. It’s not significantly different from Zoom; the controls are in different places, but still easy to find.

  104. LGC*

    FINALLY FINISHED WITH PERFORMANCE REVIEWS! (For the most part. One of my employees had a child care emergency so hers has to wait until next week.)

    There’s a couple of action items I need to deal with, and then one of my bosses made a comment in passing to one of my employees that REALLY bothered me. I’ll go into detail a bit below.

    1. LGC*

      Okay, so main players are me (Black man), Jane (my boss – middle-aged white woman), and Michelle (one of my employees – younger Black woman).

      Michelle’s review went really well, since she’s become a great employee overall. (She used to not be a great employee, and I think this was her first full-time job.) We started talking about opportunities for advancement, and Jane mentioned that an issue was Michelle’s grooming. Michelle is neat, but tends to wear exaggerated fashions (like long acrylic nails and false eyelashes, and sometimes brightly colored wigs) – and the thing Jane mentioned was NOT against the rules (we allow long nails, false eyelashes, and brightly-colored hair in our handbook). I’m a bit ashamed to say that I did not call this out in the moment, but it did bother me a bit – I stammered a little in protest, but I didn’t really push back.

      On one hand, Jane is right about our culture – our floor employees sometimes do wear loud fashions, but supervisors and above tend to be more conservative in their dress. On the other hand…maybe it’s the moment we’re in that I’m thinking about this a lot more, but I felt like it stung more because Michelle is Black and wears fashion that’s often considered Black. Plus, she does her job well and honestly I don’t care about her appearance! (In fact, I don’t want to discourage her!)

      A final wrinkle is…well, part of our mission is to prepare people for working at other jobs, and I do know that – regardless of my feelings – this is going to be a problem in certain jobs.

      All that said, I don’t think I should let this go, but I’m not sure how to push back in an effective way.

      1. WellRed*

        Unless Jane is actually asking you to address this issue with Michelle, I think I’d let it go but be on the alert for this sort of thing (unless you think your boss’s thinking will keep Michelle from opportunities). Because I agree with you, white women should not be policing Black women’s hair or fashion choices, except where wildly in appropriate or dangerous, in which case it would be inappropriate regardless of who’s wearing it. (A bikini and beach cover up at work or flip flops on a warehouse floor).

      2. emmelemm*

        Ugh. Commenting as a white woman, so take me with a grain of salt, but isn’t that *exactly* the nonsense we’re supposed to be getting away from? Critiquing Black people for cultural and style things just because they don’t match up with our very WHITE expectations? I know your comment is not about “natural” hairstyling, but since a couple of states have now passed hair style non-discrimination laws, it’s definitely something that’s on the radar.

        It’s tough because Jane is your boss. How receptive has your company been overall to the current Black Lives Matter push? Have they at least given lip service (if not more) to any kind of “diversity initiative” or trainings? Regardless, I guess, I might go back to Jane and say, “Hey, I know this is tricky and you were trying to give Michelle good advice for advancement, but criticizing certain aspects of her style/grooming can be pretty racially coded. We should try to keep the emphasis on the quality of her work.”

        Also, I see the dilemma in the “world as it is” vs “world as it should be”. Michelle should be able to dress as she wants and do good work and advance, and we may make small strides in removing stigma/micro-aggressions etc. around that, but reality says that she probably will face discrimination and it’s not helpful to pretend otherwise. On the other hand, even though you say she is young, don’t you think she knows that looking/styling “too Black”is going to be an impediment to management level?

        No easy answers, I guess.

      3. Rusty Shackelford*

        Jane mentioned that an issue was Michelle’s grooming. Michelle is neat, but tends to wear exaggerated fashions (like long acrylic nails and false eyelashes, and sometimes brightly colored wigs) – and the thing Jane mentioned was NOT against the rules (we allow long nails, false eyelashes, and brightly-colored hair in our handbook). I’m a bit ashamed to say that I did not call this out in the moment, but it did bother me a bit – I stammered a little in protest, but I didn’t really push back.

        On one hand, Jane is right about our culture – our floor employees sometimes do wear loud fashions, but supervisors and above tend to be more conservative in their dress.

        Would Michelle’s style get in the way of a promotion if she were white?

        1. SomebodyElse*

          I wandered away from my comment in the middle so copied it to tack on to yours since it sounds like we had the same question…

          Would Jane have said the same thing about a white woman? Did she specifically mention things that inherent to black women (hair texture, braids, etc.)? What do the other managers dress like are there any outliers who are they?

          Part of encouraging your employees is to help them navigate things like unofficial dress codes, expectations at different levels, etc. this should be done for all employees. (Imagine what Jane would say about a white goth woman)

          I’m going to be honest… appearance does matter in the workplace especially when it comes to style and dress as this is something that the person has complete control over. I don’t agree if it comes down to things like braids, natural hair color, and racial features. But I can’t get worked up if it’s about style of dress, unnatural hair colors, and other adornments.

          All this being said, only you know or have the ability to find out if this truly is about race or if it’s about style and conformance (which generally is applied to everyone regardless of race).

      4. Emma*

        Could you go back and ask your boss about the comment? Perhaps just say you were thinking about her comment, had not though that Michelle’s grooming was different than other people at her level, and ask Jane if there were particular things she had noticed that concerned her.
        I would listen to what Jane says, and if any examples she gives are about Michelle’s fashion being more Black (or if Jane says it is a general impression rather than something specific), explain that you don’t think Michelle’s grooming is at a different standard than the rest of the team, you think her fashion choice as just more Black than the others. Hopefully Jane is a sensible person and this conversation will help her to reassess her judgements.
        I think finding a professional style can be very challenging for a lot of women – finding something sufficiently corporate that does not squash your personality. If Michelle’s fashion choices are likely to hold her back, and you don’t think she is aware of this, it might be useful for someone to have a conversation with her. Michelle (and anyone) can of course decide that she doesn’t want to change anything – it’s just best to make that decision consciously.

      5. Picard*

        Ooooo… thats a tricky one. There’s what we want and then there is reality. How comfortable do you feel talking to Michelle?

      6. Diahann Carroll*

        As a black woman who, admittedly, does not dress like Michelle in any way shape or form either at work or outside of it, but has still
        faced the whole “you don’t fit in here” thing from white women in corporate America, I have to say – if I were Michelle, I would appreciate you telling me what the unwritten rules are for black people in the office. What I mean is, I would sit Michelle down and tell her exactly what Jane told you – that this company is racist and only wants black folks to assimilate to their conservative values, and then let her know that you’ll fight for her to advance because you think she deserves it based on her work output; however, just so she’s aware, there are people like Jane in your organization that may go out of their way to block her advancement opportunities because she doesn’t “fit in,” then let Michelle decide whether she wants to do something to change or not.

        I would want to know if there were people in my workplace that were either consciously or subconsciously looking to sabotage my climb up the ranks. It’s demoralizing to work your ass off thinking it’s going to lead to advancement within a company only to be blocked at every turn and not know why. You’ll start internalizing that mess and thinking it’s your fault and something you’ve failed to do when, really, it’s other people punishing you for daring to be different (ask me how I know). And honestly, given everything I’ve seen you write about your company, even if Michelle dressed the way Jane would like, she sounds like the type who would still find something about Michelle that supposedly makes her “unpromotable” – Michelle should know that too so she can decide whether or not she wants to continue on at this company or take her skills elsewhere.

      7. LGC*

        …well, I was not expecting anyone to click through on a post that went out at 1 PM ET! Much less give so many thoughtful replies!

        To clarify a couple of things:

        – I should say “more conservative” is a relative term. On the grand scale of “business casual,” production and lower-level management are well on the end of “casual,” especially at my level (I’m a shift supervisor, so lower management). Top-level management wears suits, but they’re far more forward-facing.

        – To wit, I was not exactly subtly dressed myself yesterday. (I wore a cute pair of TOMS that I got for the first time. I actually had a shirt that matched them pretty well.)

        – I could write another post about our stance on BLM. Suffice to say: we support it, but we need work!

        – Jane is famously direct, so I’m not shocked that she said what she said. And I’m pretty sure Jane would have said something if Michelle’s style were “extreme” in another way (like she was a goth).

        – Finally, part of the job is learning professional norms. (We have a rather unconventional setup where we also provide job training.)

        Now that I think about it – I took it as Jane saying that Michelle looked “ghetto” and…while I’m probably not wrong, I’m not entirely sure that I’m the one who should be the most mad about this.

        Weighing everyone’s input over: I think I’ll mention it to both Michelle and Jane separately. I did need to get some feedback from Jane anyway about some other reviews.

  105. StellaBella*

    I need some advice and this advice involves two cultures related to work styles.

    1. In May I was contacted by a former colleague (like 20 years ago, we overlapped by 6 months, maybe?).
    2. Former Colleague wants to know if I am available for some part time remote work.
    3. I get asked to do a task. I find a friend to do the task as I cannot work in this particular language.
    4. This task has turned into 40 plus hours of work so far in 5 weeks, including research, responding to an RFP, creating several proposals, discussing creating a business in my country for former colleague’s company, and sending in RFP to client this week.
    5. I will be invoicing them next week and also….have clearly said I have a right to refusal for work for said client – because my proposal and timeline (a year for this work) were ‘adjusted’ to be less than 7 months’ of work – I was very firm on this.
    6. I have just started a new full time gig.

    Questions:
    1. How does one manage different work cultures and expectations? This firm pushing this RFP is based in the a large country bordering Russia, but has a lot of offices worldwide.
    2. I have repeatedly said no, I cannot do this work in this timeframe, it needs a year based on local culture, holidays locally, covid, etc… It was a part time PM gig that has morphed into a request for setting up a company possibly etc and I do not have the time or the money to do this. Nor do I wish to.
    3. I stated that I want right to refusal on this, and as I have no contract with the firm (tho have done a lot of work so. far for them….) I am going to be declining this if they do not represent me or my partner accurately in the RFP.

    I just need advice on how to bail out of this. There is no contract but the work my partner and I did should be compensated. We do have a lawyer too.

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      You don’t have a formal contract but do you have any proof of commitment to be paid? Did they expect to pay you?

      1. StellaBella*

        Very good questions. Yes, as it was presented as a work task. However, we may be screwed as there was only a discussion at a high level of payment by invoice. As it is a former colleague I was going on good faith.

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          Did you discuss rates or amounts? If things are vague about payment, you should wait to back out until they commit to paying you – such as saying you need to send an invoice, confirming they will expect and plan to pay it, and then ending the engagement.

          You don’t need to be so formal as stating you’re refusing further work, you can say that starting {day} you won’t be available to continue this project

    2. RagingADHD*

      I’m not clear on your problem.

      Where I live, “right of refusal” means they are obligated to offer it to you first, before considering anyone else. But it sounds like you don’t want the project.

      So send your invoice for work done to date, get paid, and then tell them you have to decline future work on the project because of timeframe, new gig, etc.

      If you have any deliverables that they need, hold them until your payment clears. And don’t announce that you’re quitting the project until after the payment clears.

      They can’t make you do work, as long as you deliver what they pay for, then you’re fine.

      Now, they may not want to hire you again in the future, but there’s no way to control that.

      1. StellaBella*

        Thanks, and yes, I think the phrase I lost in translation. I also appreciate your advice and words, too. I will communicate to them as such. Thank you!

  106. tech job question*

    I’m considering going back to school for a career, possibly as a database administrator or something in big data. There’s a program I could do that would be convenient for me and not terribly priced, but it’s masters in IT with database technology specialization–would that be okay for the good jobs? I thought it would be in CS, not IT.

    FWIW, I took a course on database design and management a couple years ago and found SQL pretty easy to learn. I’m also a librarian, so I’m thinking I could find a job that leverages that expertise and one involving databases.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Are the database jobs you’re looking at asking for a master’s degree? It seems a lot of work and money to put in if it’s not necessarily necessary.

      1. tech job question*

        No, but they usually want a BS in computer science or related field. I have a BA in a foreign language, a masters in library science, and a certificate in computer science fundamentals from two years ago (read: actual coding skills a little rusty).

        A lot of schools push people with prior baccalaureate degrees into masters programs (there are “professional” ones that usually have few prereqs), or don’t even allow second baccalaureate degrees. There’s also more federal loan money available for graduate degrees per year.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          No “or equivalent experience”? I’ve done a bunch of DB admining and IT stuff. Never got a related degree.

    2. ThePear8*

      A lot of job postings I’ve read in that area will ask for degree in “CS, IT, ECE, or related field”, so it’s probably fine!
      Good luck!

  107. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Without a boss to trip me up, I just sent a few stale accounts to outside collections.

    I actually got a fast response from one person. Who acted devastated that they had to pay us…I got a story about how their client that the part was for filed bankruptcy on them. To which I was like “Yeah, I hate when that happens. I’ve had it happen over the years, it’s frustrating!” while internally I’m like “do you think I should just write it off because your choice to do business with a corporation you wrongly assumed was not a risk, fell through? You’ve been ignoring us for a year hoping we’d just stop…”

    Which I mean, they’re not wrong. Some small businesses will just cut their losses. I am not one of those small businesses anymore.

    Anyone have weird sob stories you’ve heard over the years while trying to get people to pay their B2B bills? [B2C wise, I have a million times more sympathy and will write off a lot quicker because yeah, the regular citizen has a different setup than someone who’s getting the perks of operating as a business entity, including a whole heckuva lot more capital floating around at any given time.]

    I went into full bulldog mode for collections lately. I’m tired of excuses. When they’re accounts without a history of issues, I’m fully accepting of “This fell through the cracks, cuz Rona.” but when your account is historically a shitshow, bro…broooooooo, stop it. Those straws you’re grasping at are done, yeah I’m the jerk, pay me.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Oooh, you’ve got a client who isn’t paying their bills? Seems to be a lot of that going around.” Ahem.

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t have a B2B (even though I work at a B2B). Working in retail, I once had a woman ask for refund for the blank journal she bought because she has lost it.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is golden. I have heard so many outrageous requests to return things from my friends in retail but…this one. Woah, too much!

        I have people who want to “cancel” or “return” customized products somewhat frequently. I actually just got tired once and was like “fine, send it back, I’ll give you your money back and scrap it.” Then guess who never go around to returning it *cough* Whatever, thanks for the sale, dude!

        1. Beatrice*

          Yes! We had someone recently who:
          1. Ordered their custom product in the incorrect color
          2. Had already received half their order, and the other half was 90% done and ready to ship to them
          3. Asked to return/cancel the whole thing, and threw an utter hissy fit when we said no (it was nearly $80K). We cancelled the 5% that wasn’t made yet.
          4. Tried to blame us for the mistake (nope!)
          5. Insisted that we could take the wrong color back and correct it in post-production to the right color. Decided they knew more about our production process than we do, when we tried to explain that wasn’t actually possible. Also tried to convince us to do it at no charge. LOLOLOLNO.
          6. Tried to convince us to take them back and find a buyer for them elsewhere (their customization is so tailored we won’t find another buyer for years, and even then we’ll never sell this many)

    3. RagingADHD*

      I was tangential to one once.

      I once had a team lead who was convinced that I was a useless waste of air and couldn’t believe that BigBoss employed me. He thought my entire position should be eliminated, because he knew everything. I was just there to do scutwork when he didn’t feel like being bothered.

      Somehow he never figured it out, no matter how many times I saved his bacon.

      One of my tasks was ordering custom oversize prints to review map data. We’d get these huge files on CD, I’d go through them to flag the exact pages we needed, and process the order paperwork so it would get billed to the correct client.

      So one of these came in while I was on vacation. BigBoss said to leave it till Monday for me, but TeamLead knew better. He just slapped the client code on the CD and sent it to the copy department, who sent it to the outside specialty printer.

      When I returned, we had 1200 square feet of paper printed out. That’s nearly as big as my house.

      A normal bill for this service would be a couple hundred bucks. With this one, I could have bought a modest car.

      BigBoss of course refused to bill the client for it. So TeamLead ordered me to get a refund.

      The putative reason was that of *course* he never told them to print the entire file. That would be ridiculous, so obviously it’s an error.

      Naturally the vendor refused. He ordered it, they sent it.

      Come to find out, our internal copy department questioned the order, did he really want ALL of the pages, because nobody ever does that and it’s expensive.

      And he emailed them back something to the effect of, just do as you’re told.

      When the vendor turned me down, he tried calling himself. That was a LOT of squirming.

      I don’t know if he had to personally eat the cost (which could have happened- he was technically a contractor). But it surely tanked any chances he had at getting ahead at the firm.

  108. This Old House*

    I didn’t get to read all of the comments on yesterday’s “Ask the Readers,” but I read a lot of them (but not until today, which is why I wanted to comment here), but there were a lot of comments to the effect of it being unethical to continue taking a full-time salary for part-time work. Is there any concern that it’s more unethical for the responsibility for making the best of a bunch of bad choices falls so heavily on individuals and families while businesses continue expecting full-time work from employees despite the pandemic? That it’s somehow reasonable for companies to continue allowing their staff to work from home, presumably because it’s too dangerous to bring them in, while also telling them “you can only keep your job if you’re willing to send your kids off to spend all day exposed to things we clearly think it’s unsafe to expose you to”?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I feel like there are a lot of questions in there.

      But I can’t say that most businesses are being unethical by wanting their employees to be on-site. Employers largely should not be overly concerned with their employee’s personal situations as that can lead to a host of other problems. That being said, a good company will take into account extraordinary circumstances. And that being said, a company is not a charity. They do have to make sure they are profitable and functional (or in the case of non-profits and government- functional).

      How the employees sort out their own lives (including children and other obligations) should be first and foremost the responsibility of the employee. If the two aren’t compatible for any reason then it’s probably best for both to part ways if a mutual agreement can’t be found.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        > How the employees sort out their own lives (including children and other obligations) should be first and foremost the responsibility of the employee. If the two aren’t compatible for any reason then it’s probably best for both to part ways if a mutual agreement can’t be found.

        Agree in general but also during a global pandemic with numerous childcare and other challenges, I expect any employer to work with their employees to accommodate this – bare minimum. If they’re not able to accommodate after trying, yes it makes sense to part ways, but they better try t0 support me first.

        Business who want but don’t NEED employees to be onsite right now are being unethical and shortsighted. Businesses who NEED employees to be onsite can be ethical or unethical going about this

        1. AnotherAlison*

          I just take issue with the “any employer” part of your comment. I work for an F300 company. I think yesterday’s OP’s company was 20-30 people. My company is very flexible, but I don’t think many small businesses can afford to be so flexible that they pay someone full-time salary to do nothing long-term. I am also not convinced small business owners and managers necessarily have the managerial skills to deal with this. I’d allow for that before calling them all unethical. Just my single office location has teams of people and resources to deal with this–very savvy executives, analysts and accountants, HR, IT, facilities management. They can tackle this head on from every angle. A small business might have an owner and a jack-of-all-trades wearing all those other hats. If you’re an essential small business, you’re probably overwhelmed figuring out how to keep executing in this environment, and if you’re in a business taking a financial hit, you’ve got a whole different set of problems.

          1. Friday afternoon fever*

            > I don’t think many small businesses can afford to be so flexible that they pay someone full-time salary to do nothing long-term.

            Where did you get ‘pay someone full salary to do nothing’ from my comment? I said work with their employees to accommodate. Work to accommodate meaning talk to your employee, try to find solutions like flexible scheduling, part-time hours, shifting projects, reallocation of PTO to temporary leave. Work to accommodate meaning problem solve and try to find creative solutions, knowing that there might not be a solution but you at least have the conversations. Work to accommodate meaning don’t expect your employees to be able to work business as usual, hours as usual, productivity as usual with no changes. No matter the size of your business, it would be a major jerk move to default to ‘sorry, can’t even try.’

            Like the ADA, which requires employers to engage in a dialogue and grant reasonable accommodations, but does not require unreasonable accommodations such as paying someone a full salary to do no work.

            1. Friday afternoon fever*

              Oh, you got paying full-time salary from the original comment. I don’t think anybody is expecting THAT. Is it unethical to say ‘your world has completely shifted but I, business owner, do not plan to change anything and expect you to be able to comply’? Yeah, it kinda is. Is it unethical to say ‘look, I’ve thought about how to solve this and unfortunately can’t accommodate because my business needs xyz that you can’t do now’? No.

              I didn’t read yesterday’s post in question though.

    2. Mediamaven*

      It’s not unethical to make business decisions for the health of your company. Every business should certainly be more flexible and compassionate right but in no way should a company be expected to pay people to not work. What solution would you propose?

      1. This Old House*

        If it’s not unethical to make business decisions for the health of your company, even if it means employees have to suffer, then why is it unethical to make personal decisions for the health of your family even if your job has to suffer? I don’t know exactly what I’d propose, but it’s surely not a situation where the only way a single parent, say, can keep her job is if she parents from, e.g. 6am-8pm, then works from 8pm-4am, then sleeps from 4-6 before doing it all over again. Or even someone who has a partner, who switches off so that each of them gets to work 8 hours a day, parent 8 hours a day, and sleep 8 hours a day, and do NOTHING ELSE EVER FOR MONTHS ON END. It doesn’t seem right that, in the highly unusual circumstances we find ourselves in, the only thing that should never get shortchanged at all is hours spent at work. You can sleep less, you can skip exercising, you can plop your kids in front of a tv for more hours than is good for them, you can let dishes pile up in the sink until they attract bugs, but come hell or high water you WILL work 8 hours a day. If something needs to give, it’s anything else. My argument is not that anyone should get a full-time salary for doing *nothing,* but only that it’s just as ethical to shortchange your job as it is to shortchange your kids, or your health, physical or mental. Maybe none of them are ethical, but I was noticing the comments trended strongly towards the presumption that your ethical duty to your company beats your ethical duty to anything else, and I don’t think I agree.

    3. Colette*

      I don’t think it’s unethical for companies to want their employees to work without looking after a child – but I completely understand why people don’t want to send their kids to daycare as well. But sometimes no one is the bad guy, and this is one of those situations.

      In an ideal world, I think:
      – companies would be flexible about when the work gets done as much as possible
      – everyone would recognize that 8 hours in the office is not 8 hours of work; maybe 6 hours of focused work is enough
      – parents would work together (and with others they trust) to make sure everyone has work, family, and leisure time.
      – It is in everyone’s best interests to keep the children from being exposed to the virus. (Kids get sick = parents get sick.)

      1. Reba*

        Yes, what is enough work? 40 hours (or 37.5 or whatever) is an arbitrary number. Productivity is higher than ever before. Maybe we can acknowledge that A) working every minute of every work period isn’t the reality of work and B) maybe that work period could be reduced and we would all be ok.

        I don’t know if unethical is the term I want, but I do feel it is wrong for companies to try to do “business as usual” these days.

    4. RagingADHD*

      A pieces I think is missing here, is the question of LWs coworkers.

      If other people are picking up her slack – and are able to do so because they are sending their kids to daycare – then it’s not just between her and her employer. Her lifestyle choices are directly impacting them.

      There’s also the question of whether she’s being honest with them about her situation. Her coworkers might not be willing to pick up that slack if they knew she had childcare options, but was choosing to let them bear the risk & cost, while she got the benefit.

      And again, if she were up-front with her manager about her choices, they could possibly negotiate a part-time role and then hire someone else to do the rest.

    5. Sleeplessinseattle*

      These are good points, but don’t confuse companies’ Covid policies with them thinking it’s unsafe. They might think it’s unsafe, not care about your safety, but care about the optics of not allowing WFH in this environment. That’s callous, but it would explain why they take measures for you to be safe but don’t care so much about children.

  109. Marie Masen*

    After more than a year of looking, I recently bought a house. My agent and I got along very well and have similar personalities. I’m hoping to change jobs and would like to ask my agent if she’s hiring administrative roles for her expanding office. Any suggestions on how to phrase it? Thank you!

    1. Peaches*

      Hi Sally,

      [Insert pleasantries] I’ve been considering a job change for some time now, and my experience with buying a house piqued my interest in the real estate field. I really enjoyed working with you and seeing all that goes into the home buying and selling processes. I know your office is growing, and I wondered whether there are any openings for administrative roles. [Add a sentence about your experience].

      [Closing pleasantries and thanks]

      Best,
      Marie

  110. indigo64*

    My husband lost his job due to COVID, and has been furiously job hunting. He came across a position he is interested in at a Large Government Agency in our city. He’s sure they will receive lots of applications, given the current job market and the fact that it’s an interesting role.

    One of my colleagues “Jim” used to work at Large Government Agency- same building, completely different department. Jim is much senior to me, and we work on different teams, but he’s a nice guy, we chit-chat in the break room (or used to before COVID). My husband wants me to ask Jim for networking help, and maybe “put in a good word”. I’m hesitant because Jim has met my husband one time at our holiday party, (so he couldn’t give a reference) and he probably doesn’t have connections with the right people. However, Jim might be perfectly happy to help. Should I ask, or leave it be?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Honestly, if you know Jim well enough I’d ask, but keep it light and open to him to say no.

      “Hey Jim, if this puts you in an awkward position feel free to decline… My husband noticed a job at big gov’t agency and is going to apply. Do you have any advice for him” So keeping it light and non specific leaves the door open for Jim to offer help and networking contacts if he wants (he could come back with “Sorry, but I quit in Cod form, so probably wouldn’t be a good person to ask”) , but could just as easy lead him to say “Ha…make sure he is ready for some waiting and remains patient” or whatever low key advice which would indicate he’s not willing or able to do more.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would reach out to Jim, say your husband is applying for a job at that agency and is curious about the culture there. Ask if Jim would be ok with giving your husband his contact information. If Jim says yes, then connect the two of them. Don’t ask questions on your husband’s behalf, just make the initial connection and let them take care of it.

    3. Me*

      Perhaps this is only my experience but networking is not much help at government agencies. Unless Jim is a reference, which he wouldn’t be in this case, anything he says will have no bearing. We have very rigid hiring process… to be interviewed you have to check these boxes, all interviewees are asked the exact same questions etc. I had someone ask me once to put in a good word. I knew them socially so could speak to nothing about their work and said so. Even if I could speak to the work there is no mechanism for me to put in a good word for them.

  111. Friday afternoon fever*

    Vent – if I have to install 1 more piece of ugly web conferencing software on my personal laptop I’m gonna scream! Everyone has a different one. Some are less invasive than others. Yet whenever I have to add a new program just to talk to someone for 20 minutes I so resent it

    1. Mid*

      Can you designate the software? Like if people ask to meet with you, you say “okay here’s the zoom link?”

    2. Choggy*

      I feel your pain, I work in IT support and people want to use every different meeting software out there, and are very prickly about it. It is probably at the top of what I hate about WFH list.

  112. Octopus*

    My boss has set up 1-on-1 meetings with our virtual summer interns to discuss the field, company, education requirements, etc.

    I am extremely burnt out, looking to get the heck out of my field, and after the boss doubling down on their shenanigans since the pandemic started, I’m feeling frustrated with them too.

    How can I be open and honest with the interns without being too disparaging or negative? The field really does have major issues and I’m tired of sunnily glossing over those now that I have a semi-solid exit plan.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Stick to the facts, rather than interpretations! It’s easier to be neutral about factual information that can be verified objectively.

      “Well, a major challenge that folks in the Otter Cuddling field face is dealing with the build up of feces; you’d be surprised at how much a single otter produces.”

      “Folks who succeed at this organization tend to really slimy, since it helps if they can provide natural lubrication.”

      “The Head Llama’s decisions on how much fur to produce changes day-to-day and sometimes hour-by-hour, so employees need to be able to adjust your work quickly and constantly.”

      Hopefully these examples aren’t too sarcastic. Remember, habits that drive one person batty are another person’s dream situation.

  113. Mid*

    In light of the letter earlier this week about grad school—when should I loop my employer in that I’m applying to law school?

    I wouldn’t have thought to bring it up until I was actually admitted, and I don’t have any public social media so it likely wouldn’t be discovered accidentally. But, I will be using my bosses as references.

    I’m also strongly considering a part time law program that is very close to my current workplace, and would love to be able to keep my job while going to school, to minimize my debt. How should I start that conversation? And when?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Oooh, tricky. When you say you’re using your bosses as references, do you mean for your application to law school? Or references for future jobs? If the former, then you definitely need to talk to them before applying.

      What makes this tricky is you’re not sure if you’ll be leaving or not. If you got into a full-time program and couldn’t keep your job, would you go? Or would you wait and re-apply in the next round for the part-time program?

      I think how and when you ask really depends on the answer to those questions.

      1. Mid*

        I’d be using them as law school references (and future jobs most likely). And the full-time/part-time question is dependent on financial aid offered by schools, so it’s really tough to predict. That’s partially why I don’t want to bring it up—until I know more concrete things, I’d want to keep this to myself. But needing reference letters will make it difficult to keep this quiet.

  114. Maggietha*

    It’s official! Our director announced that while we won’t be having pay cuts, the pay raises that were supposed to happen (COLA) are not going to happen due to budgetary constraints. It would most likely be two years until we saw another COLA. I’ve been on the team for about 4 months and I really do like this job! However, I already came in with a small pay cut and was hoping on that COLA. To stay at this same pay grade for two years makes me nervous, as I live in a higher cost area. We do get to work from home more often, which will be a cost saver on commute. The director said that the only way to get a pay increase was to change jobs. Agh. I think I’ll casually look around for jobs, but I do like this one a lot. I want to stay at least two years. Anyone who has decided to stay in a lower paying job or one you knew wasn’t going to get a pay raise in a while? (I’m looking at government folk mostly I think…) Any budgeting tricks? When you changed jobs, were you still able to get a higher pay when your current job is below market rate?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s a lot easier to look while you’re employed and like your job, with the only thought in mind that you are looking for better pay. So that’s a plus and takes a big burden off your shoulders.

      I’ve worked jobs constantly without a clear future when it comes to raises, it’s really just my background. And yet raises still find me ;)

      My budgeting trick is to always live BELOW your means. In terms of “I can afford this but could I afford it if I lost 20% of my pay, since that’s where I’d be if I have to start over somewhere.” kind of mentality. But I come from a background of frugality and it’s saved me in the long run.

      Standard budget tips are to make sure that you’re budgeting for savings. Trim everything else before you start cutting your savings plan. I look at savings more like rent, it’s really not negotiable after you sign that lease.

      I took a 6% paycut to leave a toxic wasteland. Within a year I had received raises to bring me up 4% ahead. But if you’re in government, it’s going to take a long time for them to recoup to start doing pay raises, I feel. I keep seeing furlough announcements left and right, even in the really important segments that you’d think were last to go :(

      You have to look for places that aren’t based on whatever you’re making now. Are you in a state they can even ask you about salary history!? since you should never have to get a salary anywhere else based on what some other schmuck was paying you!

    2. Mints*

      I’m only responding to the last bit but I basically never tell what I’m currently making, because I was applying for jobs that paid much more than the old job (big reason why I was looking!). I hear people say it’s bad negotiation to name a number first, but when the first number would be a 30% pay bump, and they ask “What are you making now?” I just say “I’m looking to be at $X annually.” It’s kind of dodging the question but is actually more useful.

    3. Ronda*

      some friends have said they have had success with ynab (you need a budget) app.

      I also find the mrmoneymustach blog has a lot of good information on cutting costs. he is kinda extreme about it… me not so much, but you can pick which ones you are willing to do and improve your spending. He has several examples where folks send him their info and he tells them what changes he would have them make. (there are many other blogs with similar info if you dont like his attitude, but I kind of like his attitude and find him somewhat motivating)

      1st. compile what you are spending
      2nd. decide what things you can cut
      3rd. monitor if you are following the plan
      repeat

  115. Help Me I Can't Say No*

    I’m hoping for some advice from others who work in my field – legal reception! I recently picked up this job (thank you, AAM for all your advice on resumes/job searches!) I like it a lot, and I am generally getting very good reviews on my work, but I do definitely feel that my work in answering phones needs some serious work. I’ve never had to deal with these types of phone calls before before. Years back, I did spend a few years answering phones for very mild work – non-litigation estates, conveyancing, corporate, etc. But the occasional time I did get stuck on the phone I was in an office at my own desk without other distractions, so I’d work on whatever was in front of me while I was on the phone with someone. In this job, we do family, litigation, and more urgent conveyancing (such as foreclosures, etc.), AND I’m the receptionist so I have of course have lawyers at my desk wanting things from me (and expecting phone calls to be brief), clients may come to the desk, other urgent phone calls may come in (and we’re a small 4-person office, so I almost never have backup), etc. etc.

    The problems I’m having are a) getting off the phone and b) saying no. I’m a female in my 40s so, y’know, lots of good old fashioned training from birth about “don’t be a meanie-pants/rock the boat/set any sort of reasonable boundaries whatsoever ever” in there and also being afraid of being labelled a “bitch”, “aggressive”, “rude”, etc. But being aware of the underlying problems is NOT helping me come up with the right phrasing for these issues! And they’re likely to be ongoing, so I REALLY want to nip this issue in the bud ASAP.

    Example one:
    Someone calls in wanting help submitting a form to court. That’s a quick 5 minute “set an appointment” phone call – but the other day I was on the phone with someone for over half an hour while they told me everything wrong with their abusive spouse and their child that hated them because their abusive spouse had turned them against them. They were crying and upset and, frankly, didn’t STOP long enough for me to get in a full word! Crocodile tears or not, I don’t EVER want to risk being cruel or brusque with someone who might truly be experiencing this sort of behavior – but also, all those things above about the other things coming in and out of my desk. I kept starting with “I understand that’s hard for you, why don’t we-” and then they were off again, and just – how do you interrupt someone who’s telling you the gory details of the lies their spouse told their child about them and their illegal sexual proclivities, or how much their spouse hit them, or etc? How do I say “listen I sympathize but also I just don’t have time for this”?

    Example two:
    Someone has been calling in wanting help with a very complicated real estate deal in which they are at risk of losing a LOT of their net worth if things aren’t settled. We’ve answered dozens of phone calls and emails with no retainer and the lawyer & conveyancer finally put their foot down and won’t take calls from this person and have told me “tell them we need x amount in trust before we will continue this work. Also you can be firm.” I did, and I felt I was firm, but the person continued to try and argue & bargain their way through. “I know lawyer personally!” (true in this case actually, lawyer had mentioned it, but lawyer had also agreed with the x amount and said to be firm.) “I can pay you x today and y in two weeks!” How do I firmly but professionally say “no, seriously, they aren’t taking any more phone calls from you until x amount is in trust”?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m not in your field but I like to give advice, so… ;-)

      For #1, it might help if you frame it to the caller, *and* to yourself, as “I need to get off the phone so I can start getting you the help you need.” And yes, that does mean interrupting them. But kindly. “Caller. Caller. I’m so sorry, but I need to stop you so I can set up your appointment with Lawyer. I understand there’s a lot going on. It would be helpful if you could write all of this down and bring it to your appointment.” Even if not, writing it out might help the caller process, and it’s a softer way of saying “I’m not the one who needs to hear this.”

      For #2, the fact that someone wants to argue with you doesn’t mean you have to let them. Put the decision back on the person who made it. “Yes, I understand, but I’ve been instructed not to put you through until X happens. Is there anything else I can help you with?” (But I can pay the rest in two weeks!) “Excellent. I’ll tell Lawyer to expect to hear from you in two weeks. Thank you, have a nice day.”

    2. merp*

      Different field but somewhat similar stories! I’m a librarian and people will tell me just about anything, including traumatic stories about childhood abuse, etc. In my case, my role is usually to redirect them to the correct agency rather than make an appt for them, but maybe some of this might help? I’ve had success with what Rusty said above, I usually say something like “I’m so sorry that happened/is happening to you, but what I can do to help is X. Do you want me to do that?”

      I understand it’s hard to get a word in, of course, but you might have to interrupt to create a break sometimes. Once they’ve paused, yes/no or simple questions over open-ended questions are helpful if you need more info (“I can get you an appt on Tuesday, does that work for you?”) so they focus more on answering the question than starting the flood all over again.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Hello! Used to be in legal admin!

      The most important thing to remember is what your job IS and ISN’T. You are essentially directing traffic – you direct calls & messages to the right place.

      It’s extremely important that you remember you are not a lawyer! You are not Accounts Receivable!

      For people wanting advice / commiseration, the kindest thing you can do is jump in early and say, “Listen, I’m not a lawyer, I just answer the phone. Let me connect you to someone who can help you.”

      And “Please hold.”
      Those 2 phrases should be on your lips constantly: “Let me connect you to someone who can help you, please hold.”

      Now, in situations where you are supposed to set an appointment, then you need to pursue that goal harder. “Listen, I don’t want you to have to go through all this twice. Let’s just book you an appointment so the attorney can help you.”

      For the deadbeat client, remind yourself that you can’t control whether he calls, but you can stop him from wasting your time. “I’m sorry, Mr X. I’m not in charge of that. When the payment is made, Ms Y will be happy to speak with you. Have a good day.” Click.

      Or sometimes for very pesty people who are doing it on purpose (like the nonpaying client), just “Please hold” the second they say their name, and leave them a while so they can cool their heels.

      Picture yourself as the traffic officer in the intersection with white gloves. You can’t hold up everyone else to stop and teach someone to drive stick shift. That’s not your job.

      Talking to you is not what they need. You can’t do anything for them directly. Get them where they need to go.

  116. Anon Phd*

    Hi folks..asking for some commiseration…or perhaps a common story? especially about noxious mansplainers? This week’s been frustrating to the umpteenth degree for me and I’m quite resilient overall. I am employed in STEM, a female engineer, in bit teapot manufacturing and yes, I am very grateful I still have a job after being furloughed and in this economy, I am…but omg. But things have become a circus over the past few weeks. I started noticing not having enough work to do, my project lead started being an obnoxious mansplainer after I caught on that he took a project away from me which I found out about BY ACCIDENT. I now have multiple assertive scripts to respond to him the next time he starts on a self aggrandizing rang about his years of expertise (he’s younger, less experience and def less capable). My project leads have since switched, but jeepers, it’s been rough. I had to ask my career counselor how to tell my boss and the new project lead that I haven’t had enough work to do (“have capacity to help” is the wording), which led to me finding out that the mansplainer has been consistently hiding work that he was doing that I should have had visibility on. Every time there is a conversation, like this morning, I find out more. And forget complaining to the boss or grand boss about this behaviour, it’s a boys’ club, that I’ve been trying to get out of. At least when I told my boss about my increased capacity to help, he acted correctly and said that new project lead has been asked to distribute his own workload among his team for a few weeks and hasn’t done it and he’ll pressure him to finally do it and let go of some work; he’s generally been an ally. Grand boss on the other hand seems to have been an accessory to the mansplainer in removing that big project…which by an unusual turn of events has come back to me. I’m honestly at the end of my wits. I am reduced to having to ‘fight’ for work at a place that I don’t even want to be at, but obviously need to pay the bills; to add insult to injury, I am probably the most experienced person there, in addition to the most educated, but the boys’ club continues to promote guys that the grand boss gets along with. I’ve heard that most ppl are looking to get out of this teapot mft company…issues with lack of advancement and frequent layoffs in most departments have people feeling dejected and with little faith in the company.

    I had a job interview this week that I hope went well, but are worried if I displayed enough confidence…I prepped A LOT, practices with multiple experience past colleagues, but friends have previous pointed out that I need to really deliver the confidence…uggh, trying not to spin negative scenarios in my head and keeping in mind the positives out of that interview…i.e. the good rapport with my interviewer.

    1. blepkitty*

      If you thought you had good rapport, you probably had good rapport! And I hope you get the job, because you need out of there.

      I’m in a primarily female field, so no boys’ clubs, but my semi-similar situation is that my boss asked me to learn to handle requests for teapot specifications. She’d told my colleague in charge of teapot specification requests, Sarah, to show me the ropes on the next request that came in. Months later, when this hadn’t happened, boss insisted that I needed to jump in on the next one that came in. Which is fine, but she made it sound like it’s all my fault that Sarah is ignoring her?

      Meanwhile, the department head in my primary responsibility may be withholding work from me. She’s in control of distributing the work that comes in and always seems to be overworked, but somehow I’m twiddling my thumbs for multiple days a week. And my supervisor keeps talking to me about time management, when I don’t even have anything to do? I’m confused. Oh, and when she was on vacation for a few days, I went crazy with the amount of work that came in! So I don’t think it’s that there isn’t enough work.

      1. Anon Phd*

        Thanks for the encouragement :)

        And yeah..I agree, you situation sounds kind of shady too, wrt workload sharing. I’m sorry that’s happening, at least it’s good that you recognized it. I wish I had more advice to you on how to handle it, but the most I learned from my end is the “having capacity” part. Hopefully someone else here that can perhaps offer better insight in your case as well.

        1. blepkitty*

          It’s fine, I’ve reached “if they fire me, at least I won’t have to work here anymore” level of distaste for my job. The workload issues are far from the only ones.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Just a commiserating UGH to mansplainers and good-old-boys clubs. 20 years in engineering and construction here. There are some good places out there, and places trying to do things right. I wish you the best of luck landing at one! My company isn’t perfect, but they have made genuine strides for making the environment better for women in the last 5 years, and any male engineers or managers who aren’t on board are the ones who are on the outside looking in. I’m a little too old, where certain opportunities have already passed me by, but I do feel better knowing some things I put up with are disappearing.

      1. Anon PhD*

        Thanks so much! I really appreciate the encouragement :) nice to briefly connect here with a fellow engineering gal. I def appreciate the commiserating UGH….I am keeping fingers crossed for a better job in the near future.

  117. holiday party during a pandemic*

    TL;DR : I’m looking for advice on planning for our company’s annual holiday party this year, especially how to plan ahead during the pandemic.
    (And yes, I’m incredibly grateful that I am employed and we are still in business through this. I don’t mean to sound insensitive to those who are suffering because they’re not working right now.)

    Hey guys! I’m a receptionist at a construction company – actually just celebrated my one year anniversary with them this week! : )
    So, a coworker just asked for my help (I could decline, but for multiple reasons I’m really interested in being involved) in planning the annual holiday party, specifically for ideas about social distancing, if we should book a venue or do something in our warehouse, food and drink, etc. The coworker, who organized most of last year’s, said the planning for wintertime holiday parties starts around this time of year.

    Apparently the company has a long history of raffling off prizes at the party – they can be pretty substantial, like an expensive TV. When your number is called, you can pick from the remaining (unwrapped) raffle items. Last year there were drink tickets and bartenders, and a buffet. People REALLY look forward to this.

    I wish that all our personnel could just be happy that we’re still in business during the pandemic, and just be grateful that the company is willing to celebrate them (Some culture background: from last year’s celebration, it’s definitely more about celebrating the employees, coming together to socialize, and “giving back” than anything about any specific holiday). But it’s a 35 year old company, and there are a lot of long-timers that are definitely going to complain if it’s not what they are expecting based on previous years. Which – fine, if you want to act like a spoiled tone-deaf baby, go ahead and sit in it.

    Sorry for the venting – I’m looking for advice on throwing holiday parties, especially how to plan ahead during the pandemic. I’m thinking we should not plan on any outside venues to host us; people might find the warehouse setting odd, but I think it’s doable – however, there’s not a lot of completely open space, and where there is, I do think safety would be a factor – usually we don’t have a whole tipsy staff clumbering around the equipment. The cramped tables of last year’s, if repeated, would be disasterous during the pandemic. But of course, we still want people to feel welcomed and appreciated. There were thoughts of separating people by department, but defeats the whole purpose of coming together.

    Not having a party at all is not an option. Help? Thoughts? Ideas?

    1. Kyrielle*

      Honestly, I’d start by surveying employees now about what would seem good to them and whether they hope to attend the party, (and maybe if not, what they wish the company would do instead). NOT with the intent of changing traditions and upsetting the old hands – but with the intent of finding out how many people you’re planning for, and among those, which traditions are super-important and which aren’t. You may or may not be able to meet their expectations, but at least this would hopefully help avoid spending a lot of effort to do some part they don’t care about.

      1. holiday party during a pandemic*

        I’m adding that to my growing list of possibilities, to survey everybody. I do think it would be helpful to hear which traditions people want, and which ones we could live without this year.
        But it’s your last sentence that bugs me – because the party IS what people care about, at least at my company. The party has been prioritized in the past, and there was Much Anticipated Gushing about it when I first joined. It’s a great place to start though, by just asking what people are thinking about it. Thanks!

      1. holiday party during a pandemic*

        Unfortunately, it’s not really possible to do that because our warehouse staff don’t have the means to virtually connect in, and neither do I unless I’m sitting at my desk at work, and the raffle works based on the choice of first-called, first-served. Of course, we could brainstorm different ways of doing the raffle.

        Idk but regardless, it’s definitely going to look a lot different than last year, and People Will Be Upset. : /

    3. Colette*

      Does it have to be a holiday party? Could you instead do a picnic in the summer or a hayride in the fall or something else outside? (Maybe even a winter sleigh ride with a bonfire. Something with lots of space and outdoors.)

      Otherwise, I’d probably go with a large rented hall, since I don’t think the warehouse sounds great (cramped, plus the liability).

      1. holiday party during a pandemic*

        This would have been my suggestion, but it’s just not feasible based on peoples’ expectations. SOMETHING will have to happen in that wintertime (I think last year’s was mid-Nov, and I heard much complaining about it not being closer to the date of The Holiday that Shall Not be Named. I think part of the problem is that the parties have “ramped up” in money spent/etc every year; people have been somewhat conditioned to expect this blowout-payout situation.
        I LOVE the bonfire idea! Yeah the more I consider the warehouse, the less of a good idea at all it sounds.

    4. Senor Montoya*

      I don’t think the old timers are spoiled to be deaf babies. I think they, like the rest of us, are going thru an incredibly stressful and maybe personally crappy time. Having a long running tradition to look forward to is a way to feel very about just how shitty the world is.

      You’ve only been there one year. This is a chance for you to connect with the “old timers” and for them to appreciate you and your willingness to make things a little more normal for them.

      And I’m one of those people who tries to avoid big office celebrations. Please be nice OP and don’t let your irritation or contempt show. It will negate every bit of good will you’d otherwise get.

      2. Littorally*

        Yeah, agreed. You sound like you’re borrowing a lot of trouble here; do you really have good reason to assume that the “old-timers” will behave that badly?

        1. holiday party during a pandemic*

          Yes. I have been told point blank that they will by the organizer of parties past.
          I’m not sure what you mean by “borrowing a lot of trouble.” I mean sure, personally I am of the opinion of, “What do these people want??” But professionally, I’m not going to be running around with my nose in the air, going “Just be happy you’re still employed.” The question is how to do this so people feel welcome, but how to organize/set it up so it can be safe – which just sadly may not be an option.

      3. holiday party during a pandemic*

        Hey thanks for replying! I don’t think I came off the way I intended, at least to specifically your response. I don’t have contempt for anybody, first of all. When I used that phrasing, I meant that the ones who act that way are NOT going to be listening to anyone else’s point of view. They are 100% going to expect things to go their way. This wasn’t my viewpoint at all – until my coworker who has been here for much longer and who historically puts these things together told me all this. So this is less the viewpoint of a newbie, more a verified account of behavior past, even without a pandemic.
        You probably are envisioning a team who will be grateful for someone putting this together – historically, my coworker said she just hears complaints about people not getting “enough”. (not enough drink tickets, a turkey and roast beef instead of two turkeys – both her actual examples.)
        When I used the phrase tone-deaf babies, that is 100% what I meant. We are 100% going to have people mad if they don’t get the chance to get a fancy a$$ prize (for nothing, just based on luck) than any thoughts about keeping others safe. In THAT sense – I mean they are spoiled and will act tone-deaf to the pandemic.

    5. Morning reader*

      Are you sure not having a party is not an option? Because, frankly, if it’s indoors, it sounds dangerous. Especially if the point is to “come together,” mingle with people other than the ones you routinely see at work.

      Are you somewhere you can have outdoor gatherings in winter? My suggestion would be to have it outside, keep tables far apart and seat people with those they normally work with, and otherwise keep it as much as possible as it has been so that there is a familiar feel.

      Otherwise, some kind of outdoor event instead of a party type gathering. Ice skating, sledding, snowmobiling, snow fort building competition? Polar bear challenge?

      If the party has to be canceled or downsized, consider replacing it with a team effort toward some charity. Adopt a family or local food bank. Load up all your trucks with food and gifts and carol your way to deliver it all, followed by steaming hot cider or chocolate.

      1. Mints*

        Yeah doing it indoors sounds really dangerous. Especially with shared food and tipsy party goers. Doing it outdoors with prepackaged food and no booze and masks required might be passable (but honestly sounds way less fun). I think doing something virtual is best. It’s definitely not as fun as the regular, but you’ll get more participation and won’t be risking anybody’s lives.

        Virtual ideas: have a couple speakers (president, etc), have a virtual raffle, have an acknowledgement of people who have been there a long time if you celebrate work anniversaries, have a silly challenge like “best hat” with votes.

        1. holiday party during a pandemic*

          Well the problem is we’re pretty split between office and warehouse staff. The warehouse staff just don’t have work-provided ways to virtually connect, because it’s not necessary to their jobs. I am very much against (not that I think you’re suggesting this) any kind of separate parties for anyone, based on title/dept. If we have to stagger parties, maybe; but it wouldn’t be designed around their roles at work.

          I’m really intrigued by the pre-packaged food idea… maybe a couple of food trucks instead? Plus food trucks have to be outside, so…

          Oh and the “best hat” idea! We just made gaiter-style masks with our co. logo on them, and new business cards that have a sort of challenge at the bottom; “Where are you wearing your ___ mask? Post a picture at ___.com!” We could definitely vote on those. Thank you!

      2. holiday party during a pandemic*

        Oof.. I really wish that your suggestions lined up with the company culture here, because I like them : )
        But no, most of that wouldn’t work. We’re in the pacific northwest, so winter can be kind of either way. Last year’s event was chilly but not wet, but who knows with this wet summer we’ve been having. No snow though, and I wouldn’t want people to be exposed to the cold weather too much for even just basic flu reasons.

        Not having the party at all may end up being what has to happen; but it’s not my first instinct because when this was brought to me, it was in the sense of “How can we make this work?” The coworker herself is (I think) of a lot of the same views as me, and is extremely germ-conscious. She was one of the first to work from home, from what I remember. So I don’t think she’ll push for anything remotely unsafe – I know I won’t.

        So the problem with seating people who normally work together, is mostly that our office staff is almost entirely remote right now. Myself and the warehouse staff can’t do our jobs from home, but we’re not in the same part of the building when we work. So you’d end up with none of the office staff being able to sit together, all the warehouse divided by their depts, and me I guess alone, haha. Plus, there are a couple related people in different families who work in different depts – I don’t go in for the whole “we’re a family” vibe at work, but most people here really like it and it’s reality for some. So it gets tricky on how to divvy people up.

        Last year, I organized a toy drive that was a total mess – I had less than a week, was told by management it wasn’t happening after all-then it was-now it’s not-now it’s back, and the charity we worked with gave us faulty info a few times – which I documented to have more of a basis to work from this year. Somehow it turned out decent, and we had a good bit of stuff to donate. I do plan on doing something similar this year, but I’m going to completely take the reins on that project, and I’d like to involve aspects of our local community. We have a HUGE homeless population in our area, so that’s an opportunity to give back I can explore.
        However, it’s not an option (due to company culture) to nix the party in lieu of a charity drive.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          To put it bluntly – if it’s not safe for everyone to be back at the office and mixing as normal, it’s not safe to have a mixed department, in person, indoor holiday party. And it’s really, really, really unlikely to be indoor party safe in the US by November.

          So you can’t have a big in person party.

          You could have smaller parties based on work groups – you and the office people do a remote thing with a virtual draw, the warehouse people have an in person, but alcohol and loud music free party for each shift (because alcohol and noisy environments destroy social distancing). Maybe separate draws for different groups.

          Or, and this is what I’d lean to – cancel the physical party outright. Have a draw for prizes at a specific time, and text or email the winners. Take the money you’d spend on the food/drink/venue, and divvy it up into gift cards for a take-out friendly restaurant. Yes, people might be upset, but they’d probably be a lot more upset if you had to shut down the whole company for two weeks’ quarantine due to COVID exposure at the holiday party. And if you cancel the party well in advance, people will be less angry then if you promise them a party, and then yank it at the last minute because the infection rate is too high, or gatherings of more than 10 people are banned.

          1. holiday party during a pandemic*

            I think you’re 100% right. In my original “letter,” I said something about not having the party not being an option at all – of course, it might not be. I was rooting around more for ideas I may not have thought of, than ways to cancel, basically. Whether we can even have groups big enough to accommodate the party is going to be basic Rule # 1, and fortunately our state has been fairly responsive to state-wide mandates on masks and gatherings, etc.
            le sigh – the more I consider it, the less likely it seems we’d be able to plan on any physical gathering at all. My coworker had the thought of one-way arrows, etc.. but even if that would “work”, I agree with basically everybody who replied that it’s just terribly unlikely a gathering of that size will work at all.

    6. Anono-me*

      Can you do a morning sledding/tubing sleigh ride party with food trucks and a fire pit?

      There are a number of tubing hills around where we live and I know several that do private events/parties in the morning before things get busy.

      1. Morning party means no booze. London police said something like ‘Drunk people don’t social distance. ‘ You also have a more family friendly environment and may reduce alcohol related issues/liability.

      2. Out doors in cold winter and food trucks let people social distance and mask without being obvious if there are people who would make it a ‘thing”.

      You could still have a raffle with a big poster board full of pictures of the items instead of the actual things. People could put their name on the item at the event and then sign the poster again when they pick it up.

  118. Nonny*

    How concerned should I be if an open position is noted to be “brand-new”? During the interview, the CEO told me the position was recently created (assisting 2-3 head HR officers since work volume has gone up tremendously).

    I’m worried because there’s no pre-established guidelines or rules… Any tips or would it be best to accept a different offer? This is for a decently sized non-profit if that matters.

    1. nep*

      I think it would be interesting and exciting to be the first–as long as managers give you a clear idea of how your performance will be measured and you’re good with it. You could have a lot to do with shaping the position.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. My current position was newly created and not only did I get to shape the role to my strengths, but I also got to choose my new job title as well (I had a placeholder title for the first six or so months). My manager asks me what I think my goals should be, I give my input, and he logs them in our performance management system along with his own goals for me (which he always gets my approval on before setting them), and then I’m evaluated against the goals I largely set myself, lol. It’s been a fantastic set up for me, so I’d proceed with an interview and gather more information if I were you.

    2. Annony*

      Will you be meeting separately with each of the people you will be assisting? If so, you can ask them all about their vision for this position. How much time do you spend assisting each one? How does your work get prioritized? Which tasks will you be performing? Who will be your primary boss? If you get different answers from each that is definitely a bad sign.

    3. irene adler*

      Brand-new isn’t always bad.

      When you interview, ask each interviewer questions to determine what the job duties entail. Each will give you a comment re: new position, can’t say for sure. But draw them out as to what they expect this new person to do, accomplish, bring to the job.

      Especially find out what the 2-3 head HR folks expectations are. Is each officer expecting to get 75% of your time? How’s that gonna work? Or one emphasizes one skill set is needed, while another tells you a completely different skill set is essential. This may mean they don’t have a firm grasp of what they want you to do. Might even mean they want to wait until they hire someone and see where their strengths lie. Not the wisest move; over time will they need different skills and let you go(bad)? Or will they offer you a chance to learn these needed skills (good)?)

      IF each interviewer gives you a vastly different description of what they envision this role to be, then take that as a yellow flag. The job duties will change a lot once you are on board. IS that a deal breaker for you?

      On the flip side, this can be a role where you can tailor the duties a bit. Maybe forge an avenue doing more of the things you like and are good at. Might try to get a read as to how willing they are for you to do this.

      As far as salary, they may or may not be cognizant of the proper compensation for the skills you bring in. You need to know what your skills are worth.

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      This completely depends on what type of role you are looking for/interested in. If you like creating process and self-managing, this could be a great experience. If you prefer to follow laid-out guidance and procedure then this is something you might want to pass on.

  119. beanie gee*

    Since crying at work came up earlier this week, I’ve got a question on how to handle it when you can tell a person is on the verge of tears.

    The person who reports to me is amazing and does great work. I had a call with them recently where I could tell they were on the verge of tears about a project that’s been particularly stressful. I want to make sure they are ok and talk through what’s causing them stress and how I can mitigate that stress, but I also get the sense that they might not want me to point out that they sound like they are on the verge of breaking down. Like they are trying to just hold it together, and if I point it out, it’ll make it impossible to hold it together.

    I think I got them calmed down and we have a plan to get through the work, but I’m not sure how I should handle instances like that in the future.

    1. blepkitty*

      As a repeat offender on the crying, the best responses I’ve ever gotten from bosses were tissue boxes being silently passed over to me, with the conversation carrying on. At most, a subtle acknowledgement that you know the situation is pretty stressful, but the meeting staying on track. If you think the project was stressful, address it, but bring it up because you’re concerned about making the work environment work for her. Don’t make it about the tears.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      I find it is best to not directly comment on the crying but perfectly ok to acknowledge that you know the topic is difficult. If the person is so upset that they are not able to fully participate in the discussion you may want to ask if they want to take a break and continue the conversation at another time.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I think you handled it perfectly.
      I also like the idea of passing the kleenex and keep talking.

      My go-to is to conclude with reassurances of some sort:
      We will get this
      We have been through worse and survived
      We’ve actually got the hardest part done (if true)
      Boy this is a tough one. You and I are not the only ones thinking this is Tough! (they are not alone, others realize it’s unusually difficult, too)
      Next week when we got X then we can complete Y and this situation will look better (remind them of incremental improvements)

  120. Anon for this post*

    How do you know if you’re the scapegoat at work? Coworkers in other departments have called my boss a b*tch and bully, my boss even admitted that someone called her a bully. Others look at me with pity because I’m pretty quiet and I have to work with her a lot on projects. She’ll get mad at me and either avoid me or will not speak to me unless she has to. She hated my predecessors, so I felt doomed from the beginning.

    Is getting out the only solution? Tips to survive while I job search?

    1. Colette*

      Do you feel like she’s bullying you? When she avoids you, is that a problem or just something that you notice? If you’re unhappy, a job hunt is your best bet, but if other people think you should be unhappy but you’re fine, that’s their problem. (Obviously you’re not getting much mentoring or active management if your boss ignores you, but sometimes that’s ok.)

    2. Goat girl*

      Not to freak you out or anything, but I had a boss that was a subtle bully. She ignored some people’s birthdays while making a huge production of other people’s, snide remarks in meetings, eye rolling, silent treatment, did my 1:1s while she was in her car with the radio on…things like that. She always had a victim. When the victim moved on, she’d pick a new one. Once I became her target, I kept my head down and worked like crazy, but took my personal items home and was ready for the layoff when it came. I only wish I had found a job and been able to leave on my own terms before she could have the satisfaction. But enough about me. If I were you, I would start looking. If she’s avoiding you, at least she isn’t blatantly tormenting you.

  121. MissGirl*

    I’m senior data analyst trying to figure out my next career step. My company offers us an education budget, and I’m trying to figure out what would be a good use of that. The problem is I’m not sure what my next step should look like, beyond I don’t want to manage people. I could go more data science (but I’m worried that would take way more training than a class here and there), product development, or grow my skills as an analyst. Anyone have suggestions?

    Here’s what I’ve got so far:
    MBA
    Business analytics cert
    Skills in SQL, Excel, Tableau, Qlikview, Webi
    Some experience in marketing analytics

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      Is there a particular type of analytics you find interesting? You could do a course in text analytics or something else. Also, general project management skills are helpful in almost any career.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Even though data science might take more training than a class here and there, could you frame it as exploring whether it’s really a field you do want to invest time and energy into?

      Otherwise, since it sounds like you’re aiming to go deeper into your technical expertise, are there areas of the skills you listed that you’d like to go deeper into? I think there’s always more to learn with technical skills, like a different version of SQL or maybe some form of non-relational data languages.

      Also, are you at the top version of the business analytics certification? I know IIAB has several levels, so if you haven’t looked into it, would the next level certification be of use to you?

  122. Anonymous Complainer*

    I just need to get this out….
    The company co-owner is now getting into my files more, as we have less staff in. She keeps complaining that my filing system is too confusing. It’s alphanumeric.

    3. Llama face!*

      Half my coworkers can’t figure out our *strictly alphabetical* filing system so this does not shock me. But the aggravation is real!

  123. ThePear8*

    I’m a student and I came across a couple of part-time internships for the Fall that I’m considering applying to…I’m nervous about the time commitment, since I already have a VERY busy course load and worry if I should bother with a job at all, but they are in areas I have recently been thinking I would REALLY like to get experience in. It’s not directly related to my major but I think would help me develop some really valuable skills towards my long-term goals, and I feel like an internship is the best way to get that experience I really want.

    And in that vein…I peeked at the applications and I’m curious on thoughts regarding a couple of things:
    1. Regarding flexibility, there’s a question that asks “Can you do X hours a week?” with a yes or no bullet to select – obviously the candidate they want would be able to commit those hours, but in general would it be automatically disqualifying if someone selected “no”? (for the record, this is asking in general, I am thinking long and hard about whether I can make that time commitment before I go ahead and apply, and with classes going remote there may be some more flexibility to consider)
    2. There’s a little text field box (think like the ones you type in to comment on this site!) for “Additional notes, such as cover letter etc.” There’s no way to upload an attached cover letter, but typing an entire cover letter in a little text field seems a bit excessive? What sort of “additional notes”, if anything, should really go in a box that size on a job application?

    1. Colette*

      If you can’t commit to the numbe of hours they want, I’d definitely explain what you can commit to. (If they want 20 hours but you can do 18 they might be able to work with it; if they want 20 and you can do 4, that’s a different story).

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Those types of yes/no questions are automatic knockouts in the application process.
      You can copy the text from your cover letter into the box or you can just leave it blank.

      1. Katrinka*

        Definitely cut and paste. Start with the “Dear [Hiring Manager]” part and end with your name (no signature space, since you won’t be signing it).
        And I would take the hours question as an indication of how many hours they want you to be available. If you don’t think you can do it, be honest and say no. There have been lots of letters here from hiring managers complaining about a candidate who agreed to the hours all through the process only to balk at the hours once the job started. Don’t be that person.

        1. ThePear8*

          Thanks! That is true, that’s a good perspective and I definitely don’t want to be that person! It’s a tough call because as the applicant, I also don’t want to automatically disqualify myself by selecting no.
          And if I decide I’m feeling iffy about 20 hours but could say manage 15-18 hours like Colette suggested above – is there a good way to explain that in my cover letter? Again, there’s also some uncertainty with my classes becoming remote/online, and there could end up being more flexibility there than there is now.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      One thing to keep in mind: You’re in school to get a job. And the vast majority of jobs want folks with work experience, so the internship is probably going to be more useful to you in the long-run. I would almost say take a lighter course load to make room for the internship.

      Regardless, definitely apply! You have no guarantee you’ll receive an offer, so your choices are literally “Apply” or “Don’t apply.” Figuring out “Can I make this work?” is getting ahead of yourself a bit.

      1. ThePear8*

        True! I do sometimes get sucked into the tunnel vision of job hunting so I appreciate getting some perspective like this! Thank you for the words of encouragement :)

  124. Keeping this anon*

    Posting again with a quick question. I politely declined a virtual team farewell, and the same colleague who asked if I wanted to have that event has now added a one on one farewell call on my calendar.

    Long story short this person has made my job and time at my employer very difficult (I don’t think they’re aware of this) and a big part of why I’m leaving is because of how they treated me (and lack of self awareness about their behavior).

    I’ve always been cordial, professional, etc with this person and I also tried to talk out these challenges with this person earlier on when I first started working at my job. Talks weren’t successful, person was evasive and dismissive.

    The additional invite just seems pushy, and like they’re looking for reassurance. I don’t want to speak with them. Am I rude for declining (again)?

    1. Keeping this anon*

      I’m also 100% ok with burning this bridge. I do not intend to reach out or asks for references.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Nope – decline and keep it moving, then. You do not have to deal with someone like this anymore. Congrats for getting out!

    2. Buttons*

      Decline it. You do not owe them anything not even an excuse as to why you are declining it.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Is this person your manager, HR, head of operations, the office manager, or anything but a peer? If so, you should accept because that sounds like an exit interview by another name. If it’s just a peer, you can decline.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I know you’ve said you’re ok with burning this bridge, and you are of course free to decline, but there might be some things they want or need to wrap up. Can you handle 15 minutes?

          1. Keeping this anon*

            Good point, I definitely considered this, but I have handed everything over and have more or less wrapped things up. invite says they just want to say goodbye.

        2. HR Exec Popping In*

          If was anyone other than your manager or your manager’s manager I would say decline. With it being your manager, they may have some exit process things to cover. Our manager are responsible for “checking out” employees on their last day. Could that be it?

          1. Keeping this anon*

            Maybe, but I’ve already gone over exit procedures in my HR meeting and my weekly check-in with my manager and team. This is just an extra thing they threw on my cal, invite says they just want to say bye

        3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Ooof, yeah, as much as it sucks, I agree with the others: Since it’s your manager, just suck it up and go through with it.

    5. Blue Eagle*

      This is the advice my cousin would give you (which she uses all the time regarding family events). She says “yes” to every event because she knows she will be bugged incessantly if she says “no”. Then the day before the event (or in your case possibly an hour before the event) she has an unavoidable conflict and can’t make it.
      To answer your question – no, you would not be rude, but consider what is the most applicable way in your situation to get out of the good-bye and go with that.

    6. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      I vote for DECLINE. As Buttons said above, agreed. The exit interview and wrap up was already completed, and your manager had every opportunity to cover things then. From what you described, IMO your manager sounds not only pushy, and as mentioned has previously been dismissive and evasive when you attempted in good faith to resolve issues. Manager seems to have little self awareness, and I wouldn’t trust her to keep that final conversation as a simple goodbye. I call BS. Trust your gut instincts. (Been there.) Good luck to you!

    7. allathian*

      Take the call, it’s only 15 minutes.
      You’ve been professional until now, perhaps you can be professional for another 15 minutes even though it’s a pain?
      You’re under no obligation to reassure them, though. You could mention how you’re looking forward to the next challenge and thank them for any lessons learned at that job (even if that means the sort of manager you’re not happy working for). After that, you can wrap things up. I assume this call is going to happen on your last day? If so, you can start treating this person like another professional contact rather than your boss, and be firm about cutting the call short if it’s warranted.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree.
        Use a philosophical or ivory tower approach to everything that is said:

        Boss: You did x wrong.
        You: Yep, you’re right [if true] and I learned from it. OR
        You: That was too bad about x. Hopefully it will go better.

        Boss:[ I am angry at you for leaving]
        You: I am sorry to hear that. I wish you the best, of course.

        Boss: [Boo hoo, you’re leaving]
        You: I am sad about leaving also. But I think this is a good move for me. And most certainly I wish you the best, too.

    8. Keeping this anon*

      Thanks everyone for the feedback! I actually took a mixed approach and applied quite a few of the suggestions made here. I should also note that this person threw the call on my calendar fairly last minute (I had roughly ~2/3 hours to make a decision/prepare), which also fueled my resistance and suspicion.

      Shortly before the scheduled call I emailed the colleague in question to confirm if the call was about wrapping up loose ends with work or just a goodbye chat. They said they didn’t have anything project/work related to discuss, but just wanted to set aside some time in case I did. I told them no, shared the status on final projects, thanked them for checking in and said it was fine to cancel the call. That seemed to resolve the issue.

      In line with Cat Meowmy’s comment, my suspicion was that this person wanted to use the call as an opportunity to say something disparaging or inappropriate to me and/or they were looking for me to grovel. I just didn’t have the patience or resolve for their behavior, after nearly a year of tolerating it.

      Not So NewReader’s advice is a good approach and one I’ll will apply in the future if I’m ever in this type of situation again.

  125. Jackers*

    Wish I had thought to post sooner but maybe I will still get some responses. I am hosting a virtual lunch and learn for our organization’s professional women’s group. The plan is just for general discussion/sharing for this first one to see how much engagement we get. Any suggestions for either business or casual conversation starters to get the communication flowing? Some items on my list are: best practices or life hacks that you’ve picked up while WFH, separating work from family time, new recipes tried, fun stress relievers…

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I would be wary of opening with a general “how are you doing” or otherwise opening the door for people to talk about what’s going on personally right now. All it takes is one person oversharing about her anxiety to turn you into a very uncomfortable support group. (This happened in another group I’m in and it was awful.) I encourage you to pick a work-related topic to discuss instead, such as professional trajectories and how people ended up working in your company or industry. Everyone has a professional story and it’s interesting to see similarities and differences.

      1. Reba*

        Heh, I was in a big meeting (just as an observer) recently in which the person running the meeting wanted everyone to speak to how they are doing when introducing themselves, and then toss it to another person. This was appropriate to the organization/field and this particular meeting — people on it who didn’t know each other, some who haven’t met together for 6+ months. It was a nice enough thought, but it quickly ate up TONS of time without accomplishing much, and it had to be awkwardly cut off — more than 40 people on the call, you just can’t free-form it like that!

    2. Ronda*

      i would avoid new recipes…. because I dont think that would ever be asked at a mens professional group.

      I would expect a scheduled speaker on a topic at at a meeting like this. It should just be a portion of the meeting. probably 1st item (these often seem to be a woman about her career)
      then a discussion of 1 or 2 topics… work/ family and WFH tips are OK topics.
      last… what topics would folks like at future meetings

      agenda before meeting are great.

    3. allathian*

      Lunch and learn? Have one dedicated speaker, preferably someone you invite from the outside, and let your colleagues eat in peace. Maybe a session of Q&A right at the end, when people have finished eating. Lunch meetings in person are fine, but it’s much harder to focus on both eating and the meeting when you do it online. This is probably because it’s much more difficult to know when someone doesn’t have their mouth full and can speak. Few things are less appetizing than watching other people eat on video.
      But whatever you do, make sure people know they’re not expected to miss their lunch if they attend!

  126. Llama face!*

    What do you do if you want to start looking for a new job but have no available references?
    My workplace being terrible with COVID safety is feeling like the last straw in a long-time-building pile of frustrations. I was going to wait to look for a new job until I moved (which won’t likely be for a couple more years) but I am so done wih my current workplace that I want to find a new position now. However, I’ve worked at my current workplace for close to a decade and am not comfortable making my job search public- which rules out listing my manager as a reference. My previous workplaces have had a lot of turnover and retirements since I left and those retired managers no longer want to deal with being references. I don’t have recent volunteer experience because my current workplace has absurd rules around it.
    Any suggestions?

    1. beanie gee*

      Are there current colleagues you could use that know your work and you trust to keep it quiet?

      I’ve also used colleagues in the industry as references before – people who know your work and could speak to your role but aren’t necessarily at your current company.

      Good luck!

      1. Llama face!*

        Hmm, I’d have to think about it. Perhaps there might be someone adjacent to my work who I could ask. Quite a few of my current colleagues at this workplace are setting our relationship bridges on fire with gasoline (ignoring my attempts to stay safe and sometimes even mocking me or getting pissed off at me doing it) and are the reason I want to leave.

        Thanks for the well wishing! :)

    2. Alex*

      Not a lot of good options, but I sympathize–I’m in the same boat. Except my previous manager from 10 years ago was fired…partially for his incompetence in managing me (passing off my work as his own). So asking him for a reference would be awwwwwwwkkkkwardd!

      For myself I’m just biting the bullet and telling my manager. If your manager is unsafe, is there another manager who wouldn’t have as big Feelings about your leaving as your own manager, but still knows your work and reputation?

      1. Llama face!*

        Aww, that is hard! Hope your job search goes well!
        Unfortunately no to the manager thing for me. We are a very narrow column hierarchy-wise so there are no other managers who I really interact with.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I suggest not stressing out. References are important to have and they will be requested often enough, however lots of times they’re not actually requested or even used. I’ve been a reference for a lot of people over the years, many are hired without them contacting me.

      And on the flip side, only one person has ever reached out to my references…and I’m doing people’s frigging books. So I really just would try to put together a list and explain to folks if they ask, that you’ve been working there for a decade and they don’t know you’re looking.

      Do you have vendors/clients that you can trust? That’s where I’ve found a few of mine over the years!

      1. Cat Meowmy Admin*

        Thank you for this, TMBL! Just like Llama face, I’ve been in similar situations regarding references. Although I’m pretty confident about getting good rec’s, problem is – several of my references have either: passed on; left the company and went incognito; or rogue-hermit-castaway-style (my personal fave); some since retired and were still business-active, but were considered by some interviewers as “too old to give credible feedback” (not kidding!)
        So I created a list of about 3 excellent trustworthy references, with their permission in advance. Gave them heads up whenever I had interviews so they’d be prepared. Know what? Rarely if ever were they contacted, and I was hired anyway! Both times! I believe that just providing an a concise list of references and their contact info (and how they were associated with me) was enough to help seal the deal in my case.

      2. Llama face!*

        Thanks The Man, Becky Lynch! I have not job searched in quite a long time and these are not optimal conditions so I’m really feeling the stress of trying to get it all figured out. But you’re right that many times employers don’t even use the references provided. I will have to think about who else may be able to speak to aspects of my work even if they aren’t the standard sources.

        Re: clients/vendors. The nature of my work means we don’t really have vendors who would deal with my area of work or the sort of clients you mean. (How do I say this without doxxing myself? Let’s just say “clients” in my workplace are generally unhappy to be here and not always given a choice in the matter)

    4. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      Llama face, I can totally relate and offer my solidarity with you. Some colleagues at my job (which I really like) aren’t taking this whole thing seriously at all. I mentioned below about my references dilemma, I think many others go through this too. You really need only 3 or 4 trustworthy references. And I agree with others that adjacent business associates, clients, vendors, are good options too. Heck, I once listed our accountant as a reference. (He could attest to my attention to detail.) Cast a wide net. Often, anyone who has ‘worked’ with you in some capacity, and/or can speak of your business reputation is an option. Good luck and sending vibes of health and well being to you!

      1. Llama face!*

        Thanks Cat Meowmy Admin! I appreciate the solidarity & well wishes. This is the first time I have ever *not* had an old boss or supervisor to use as a reference so it was really throwing me off. I do need to think more broadly for other people who may have insight into my professional skillset.

    5. Kate H*

      I wish I had suggestions, but I’m here to commiserate. This has been a huge hindrance in my motivation to start my own job hunt. COVID really brings to the forefront all the worsts parts of an employer and how many people can’t actually be bothered to care about others. This was my first full-time position so any references I might’ve had from previous positions would be minor part-time jobs with managers who may not remember my name. My current company is too small to offer much in terms of “colleague references.” With one exception, everyone else is in my chain of command and would feel compelled to disclose that I’m leaving.

      Although, given the number of times in a day I fantasize about marching into the VP’s office and announcing, “I can work from home or I can quit. Make your choice” maybe that wouldn’t be the worst thing.

      1. Llama face!*

        Well at least we can take comfort that we can sympathise with each other’s pain? Hoping you find your way to a better work situation too!

  127. Is it me or is this weird?*

    I have a situation I need some second opinions on. I am a manager of nonexempt employees in CA, and have been for well over a decade. The folks in charge of tracking payroll have told us that nonexempt staff should be recording their actual hours worked, which is of course correct. The issue is that they insist that, if an employee is scheduled for a specific shift (say 9-5) and those are the hours they record daily, it cannot possibly be accurate.
    Except…everywhere I have ever worked myself as a nonexempt person has REQUIRED that you work your stated shift, unless you had permission to deviate or there was a special circumstance (for ex. a traffic jam due to an accident that made you late). Sometimes to the point that you could be terminated for chronic lateness!
    Am I out of line in thinking this is weird concern? There are no laws I can find that say that recording the same hours daily is wrong or suspicious, and telling the staff you don’t believe they are recording the right hours just…because seems really insulting.

    1. LGC*

      I think they mean that it’s suspicious if they always clock in exactly at 9 and out exactly at 5. What does your time tracking system look like?

      I’m non-exempt myself and I almost NEVER clock in or out on the minute. We’ve used computerized tracking as long as I’ve been here (originally a locally hosted system and then a web-based system). But when I had a visually impaired employee working for me, I had to manually enter her hours. So I just rounded to the nearest five minutes and no one gave me grief.

      1. LGC*

        (I should also note that your payroll department is…very attentive. So if they’re making a big deal, they probably need to chill out a bit. But yes, just because of natural variations, you’re rarely going to clock in or clock out exactly at your shift time, unless there’s rounding.)

      2. Is it me or is this weird?*

        We use ADP to record but don’t use an actual timeclock, and allow rounding to the nearest 5 minutes. So if you clock in at 9:02, you can just put 9:00. Sounds similar to yours.

    2. CostAlltheThings*

      I would be suspicious if my employees were only recording exactly their scheduled shifts. In my experience, you’ll have a few people that actually arrive and are at their desks 5-10 minutes early and a few people that cut out 5 minutes early on Friday.

      I have had a position as nonexempt where we were told to just tell payroll we worked our stated hours if we were short but to report OT. It was a perk and luckily no one abused it!

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        And see, when I worked for a law firm and was non-exempt, we were not allowed to clock in before 8am if that was the start of our shift – sure, you could get to the office as early as you wanted, but if overtime was not mandated and/or approved, you had to clock in at exactly 8. If you clocked in one minute early or one minute late, HR would send a nastygram to the employee’s manager or supervisor demanding to know why and reiterating that people need to clock in on the dot coming and going.

        It was so bizarre.

    3. Alex*

      Maybe they are expecting a to-the-minute calculation?

      When I worked nonexempt I was only required to report the number hours worked, not the specific hours of the day. My online timesheet would have a dropdown box for each day with a number.

      I could see maybe if they were using some sort of clocking/punching system, where it is unlikely someone worked for years by punching in exactly at 9:00am and not 8:59 or 9:02 or whatever. But if this is just a self-reported accounting of what hours a person worked, yeah, no one is going to remember if they sat down at their desk at 8:59 or 9:01.

      I would just say that the time reported reflects on-time performance of a full 9-5 scheduled shift, and small deviations of a couple of minutes are not recorded as no such apparatus is provided (such as a punch clock).

    4. SomebodyElse*

      Agreed with the other poster… exactly 9:00 am and exactly 5:00 pm. I mean at some point everyone gets stuck in traffic, has to run to the bathroom at the end of the day, gets stuck on a call, stops to tie their shoe on the way to their computer to log their time.

      If there is no deviation from these times than yeah, I’d be tossing the BS flag too.

    5. CatCat*

      I’d assume people are rounding when it’s really small variations of time. So something like “8:58 am” or “9:03 am” would be “9:00 am.”

      1. Is it me or is this weird?*

        They can round to the nearest 5 minutes, so that would be allowed.

    6. Littorally*

      It also depends on what they’re doing.

      For example, I work in a call center; if you’re clocking out at exactly 5:00pm each day, that’s a major red flag! You tell me you never ever took a call that ran even a minute over your end time? Maybe you aren’t making up your time, but you might be practicing call avoidance by going unavailable for the last 15min of your shift or similar, which is a serious no-no.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Since it’s their problem ask THEM how they want to resolve it.

      Sometimes the only way we can show people their own silliness is by going right into their idea with them. Ask guiding questions to help them think this through to find what they actually want/expect to see.

      “So what can be done to alleviate your concern here?”
      “When people start work at exactly 9 AM what would you like them to log in so that it is clear that it’s actually 9 AM?”
      “Likewise when people finish their day at exactly 5 PM, how would you like them to note that time as exact?”
      “How much time do you think the average person is misrepresenting each week? How big is the scope of this problem? Is it everyone or just a certain few?”
      “What causes your concern regarding the accuracy of time sheets?” (They sign the sheet. If the sheet is proven not true— that they lied on the sheet with THEIR signature on it– that is a dismissable offense. I mean really…..)

      I would play the role of the willing servant. “Okay, so you think there’s an issue here. And I’m not really seeing it, but let’s work together to bring it to a resolve.”
      If they are being pissy just to be pissy, you will know very soon with this approach. Because they will not allow anything you say to help them close the matter. They will not like the idea of resolving things.Then I would drag in my boss and ask my boss to speak to their boss.

    8. Jiminy Cricknet*

      If I worked for a place that questioned my timesheet for no other reason than that the numbers seemed too “on the nose”, that could become a very irritating thing for me. If people are late, leave early, or improperly working overtime, someone ought to notice that behavior. Just to fuss because the numbers are 9:00;00 and 5:00;00 will result in people wasting their time making up numbers like 8:56;13 and 5:01;16. If they’re that worried, they either need a timeclock system or find a solution to ease their anxiety.

  128. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Is it possible to “spoil” an employee?

    This is partly facetious on my side but I’d like some opinions if you have them. I was accused of “spoiling” employees because I make their jobs too easy? *head tilt*

    Like I take suggestions for what kind of snacks/drinks they like and don’t just throw whatever into the snack drawer. That’s “spoiling” people. If I’m going to spend money on beverages, I’m going to want to buy something that at least a decent chunk likes?

    I’m like “They’re not squirrels…they’re people…they don’t need to just take what they get or something weird! This isn’t a bird feeder, it’s a place of employment.” [THANKFULLY this person is only weird about “perks” and the fact I labeled everything so people didn’t need to open 7 cabinets that look EXACTLY alike to find what they’re looking for or remember where that specific toodad is stored you know. Oh no, I cut their time wasting, what a big ol’ spoiling spoiler I am!

    [Of course you don’t let people get away with behaving poorly! Of course you don’t let someone walk all over you. If someone was actually angry at me that I got Pepsi instead of Coke, I’ll laugh in their face. But sometimes they’ll say “Hey I love Orange Soda, would be so awesome if you got some next time!” and I’m like “Hey Kel, I got you some of that Orange Soda!” and Kel is a happy camper. If I forget, Kel just goes and gets a cola or whatever and is fine. Jeez.

    1. Ranon*

      Wow, treating employees like people, the next thing you know they might decide to, like, keep working there because they feel valued, and then where would you be?

      Surely it is a better use of the company’s money to buy things people like? The point of the spending isn’t food, it’s keeping people happy (with food). Perks that people don’t want aren’t perks, they’re waste. Heaven forbid people are happy (and especially that you did something that made them happy and more efficient, the horror)

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      I think “spoiled” means “entitled”, but there’s nothing wrong with getting people used to the idea that their company should treat them well.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I bristled at the word “entitled” but when speaking of adults, I think that’s a better term for what was trying to be conveyed.

        Spoiled reminds me of children, “oh no, they’ll tantrum if you stop doing that one day.”

        Funny twist, this person did tantrum a bit when I took away the one-time use “stuff” we had that wasn’t necessary. Sugar packets, really? Stop the madness, even 7-11 has sugar canisters [pre-Rona of course.]

    3. CatCat*

      How odd! You’re probably making employees feel good when they can really enjoy this little perk. That’s not spoiling them, that’s treating them with thought and consideration.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        They react very much in a way that says they’re appreciative of it. I get a lot of thank-yous, which is seriously more than enough for me. They certainly know that 1. things don’t “grow on trees” and 2. someone had to do a job to get you these snackies/drinks. Which makes me want to keep doing it [and I’ll keep doing it while snickering at any humbugs along the way.]

    4. Retail not Retail*

      Oh man someone apparently brought up the cost of gatorade to my boss and wanted to cut it entirely.

      Yes. Providing gatorade is spoiling us and an extravagant expense. The hardest working part of the department is the work release team. Their program provides mediocre food and terrible soda.

      Madness! Entitlement abounds!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Gatorade is expensive, this is why I get Powerade *minds blown everywhere* Sure it’s a different flavor but when you’re sweating and need the electrolytes, it tastes okay!

        I didn’t cut coffee, I cut the Starbucks branded crap they used to buy [yes, part of it is also my personal vendetta against Starbucks, lol but ITS ALSO THE COST! There’s generic brandssssssssssss of everythingggggggggggggg.]

        I remember watching an Undercover Boss, where they LOCKED the sports drinks up and only opened it if it reached like 80 degrees or some shit. I had a meltdown in my living room over it. Thankfully the CEO figured something out that wasn’t so stupid.

        I have successfully gotten us within a meager budget without anyone having to go without. Yeah, sometimes I get the store brand…

        I also stopped buying everything from Costco and boom what, Costco isn’t the most inexpensive place to go? But…Costco!!! It’s great for food and snackies but paper products are actually not great. Go figure.

        1. MMB*

          Their cleaning supplies are a lot higher too. No one ever believes me but that’s how they suck you in. A few good deals here and there and then WHAM double the price on a lot of other things. I “spoil” my people too LOL

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, someone who gets it.

            It’s the classic setup, you get banging good deals on some stuff and the other stuff, not so much. It’s how most discount places work as well.

            I took over ordering about a year after I started and was like “These prices look a bit high, I bet I can find a better option than that…”

            Deals include food/beverages and paper cups/lids. Anything that has a re-sale setup value, that’s the cheap stuff. But if it’s just for standard stuff, or appliances, nope.

            You pay more if you one-stop shop. I learned that ages ago. And this isn’t even my money.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      How about “spoiled” as in, their manager lets them get away with things that really should be part of their job? Everyone has to log into messaging software while they’re on the clock, but Prudence can’t figure out how to do it so she doesn’t bother and “oh, that’s just Prudence, if I need her I’ll just call her.” Everyone is supposed to complete a form listing their meetings each month, so the non-productive time can be accounted for in their productivity reporting, but Chris and Sam can’t be bothered to figure out how to save-as the excel form and email it in, so their manager looks at their calendar and tries to do it for them. We know that a few specific people don’t actually bother to read their emails, but rather than follow up on that and actually implement consequences (after FOUR YEARS JESUS WEPT), every monthly all-staff meeting has a cheery reminder that “you’re required to check your email at least once a work shift, and some of you haven’t been reading the daily updates again, so let me go over all of them for you!”

    6. Academic Librarian too*

      I am with you. It’s not spoiling to provide comforts to help people like being at work.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You must work for dinosaurs?

      I had bosses who rained on me for telling my crew “please” and “thank you”. It’s a show of weakness and I shouldn’t do that. I simply chose to ignore their instruction. Productivity levels went up. Productivity levels kept going up. Finally productivity levels went through the roof, it was crazy. I asked them for their inputs, I took the best of their best suggestions. I listened to their concerns. I jumped on any safety issue that came up. If they were low on a supply I got right on it. Yeah, I was a jerk.

      I possibly worked for those famous amoebas that came before the dinosaurs evolved into existence.

      So I guess, I would be sorely tempted to say, “Yeah, and they spoil me rotten too. I get results. They give me completed items on time. If something comes up, they work at it and get that special request, or work with that malfunctioning machine or whatever. They spoil me rotten right back. It’s just a real nasty situation.”

    8. Pretty Petty Patty's Pity Party*

      Back at my former job at the dysfunctional Company X I had a former co-worker who was “spoiled.” I admit that I felt a bit jealous of her because of the blatant favoritism with which she was treated. If she was going to be late because she had to drop off her kid, no problem. Needed the afternoon off to attend a school function, no problem. Wanted to work from home, no problem. (This was in the pre-COVID days when WFH was still very much a novelty.) Anyone else with these problems would be threatened with being written up for these kind of normal accommodations.

      She was a solid performer who did do a good job. (Not as good as she (or her superiors thought she did) but a solid performer.) Someone whom you could compare to a good B/B+ student, but who of whom she and her superiors all felt was an A/A+ student. I never really understood why her superiors were so enamored of her. She could be charming and witty in conversation, she had some great anecdotes. She also had some really annoying personalty quirks that her difficult to work around and with. Mostly she was just really inconsiderate of others and very self-absorbed. She sucked all the air out of the room. Everything was all about her and what she did and what she accomplished. her superiors were charmed and delighted with her and never seemed to question her about anything. OTOH, I never heard her acknowledge or thank support staff for their contributions to her success.

      After a couple of years she “topped out” salary-wise at Company X and moved on to a similar, but better paying, job at Company Y where things did not go so well. The new job was not as flexible about allowing her to take time off at the last minute and wanted more butts-in-the-office time. I’m not absolutely sure, but I suspect that she may have finally faced some blow-back for not being a “team player.”

      She was somewhat chastened and moved onto a similar third job at Company Z where things seem to be going better. No idea if the pay is better or not. Our former employer, Company X still works with her and hires her back for “special projects” from time-to-time. It was during a visit to deliver one of those special projects that I overheard her say to our superior that while working at Company X she became “spoiled” and didn’t realize how good she had it. I smugly smiled to myself.

  129. magnadoodle*

    Reposting because I came in at the very end of the post last week and I’m hoping more people will see and reply if I post earlier: I’m considering a career change to life coaching, specifically for disadvantaged teens or people with ADHD. I would love to hear from anyone who’s done life coach work or similar, especially if you’re doing it now: how you got into it, which training programs and accreditations are genuinely respectable, how covid is affecting it, and so on. All advice welcome. (But please skip the “all life coaching is a scam” comments. There are scammers in the industry, absolutely, but it’s no more inherently scammy than home organizing or being a virtual assistant or any other self-regulated industry of people who help other people be happier and more productive.)

    1. RagingADHD*

      I haven’t done it myself, but have had friends who tried it. I’m a freelancer in a different field, so I’m looking at the self-employment aspect in general.

      I’d say one important consideration in targeting clients/specialty is developing your business model. You want to make sure you are earning enough that the stress & risk of running a business are worthwhile.

      So, right off the bat – who is paying for you to coach disadvantaged teens? Obviously not their families, because they don’t have spare cash for extras. So maybe a nonprofit?

      So that’s an important avenue to explore/research – building relationships with nonprofits who might do this kind of work, and what they expect in terms of qualifications for paid staff vs volunteer mentors.

      And for coaching ADHDers, you have to think about the hassle factor. (I am one, and I can be a hassle too!)

      The people who are most highly motivated to seek coaching/help are the people who are struggling. When ADHDers are struggling, we tend to be flaky, miss appointments or be late, fail to return calls/texts, forget to pay bills, and/or be broke.

      So setting up your systems to be as frictionless for the client as possible would be important. Also, you’ll want to build in redundancies on reminders, different communication channels, and probably some kind of fees for late payments or last minute cancellations.

      There are ADHDers out there who are stable & doing well financially, but feel like they have untapped potential and want more out of life. Those are your unicorn clients. So you’ll need to think about your marketing and what exactly you’re offering to attract those folks. And the more high-dollar a clent is, the more qualifications or credibility they will expect.

      It’s a fine needle to thread, finding the folks who are successful enough to pay you a reasonable price, but have problems that they need your help with, that take more than a couple of sessions to solve.

      Because every time a client finishes their course, you have to find a new one to replace that revenue.

      FWIW, I have not seen any of my friends find a sustainable model/client base for life coaching. They all wound up doing something else within a year or two.

      I’m sure it can be done – just bringing up some things you’ll need to deal with.

      1. magnadoodle*

        Thank you, this is really really helpful!

        My partner has ADHD and did actually get dumped by a therapist for missing too many appointments; we were both like “Isn’t that what you’re supposed to be helping with…?” but also understood the therapist wanting lower-hassle clients. So your points there are very well taken. I actually love setting up basic personal finance organization and would be thrilled to help ADHD people get their personal finances in order, but it’s true that that requires initially taking on clients whose personal finances are really not in order, and I’ll need to factor that in.

        As for “who’s paying you to coach disadvantaged teens,” I was planning to start out by volunteering a few hours a week with local organizations that I already support, see whether I can handle the emotional load of doing that work, and only pursue it as a career once I’m certain I can do it without burning out fast.

        I’ve done a lot of freelancing in the past and am very comfortable with running a business and constantly scaring up new clients.

        I appreciate your honesty about your friends not being able to make it work. My ideal would be to apprentice with someone who is making it work and learn their secret. (The secret is probably “take on a few ‘executive coaching’ clients for $500/hr to subsidize the work you actually want to do.”)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If you do follow this path, please set boundaries. There are some folks that need more help that is possible from one person. They need the help of multiple professionals working as a group.

          I say this with 10 plus years in human service, teaching job skills to folks.

          There are agencies that provide support for independent living. You might look for some of those agencies. I’d strongly suggest working under their umbrella for a bit so you can see what is really going on with our systems. It will also help you to better identify the individuals who would actually benefit from your help.

          Here, teachers for folks with disabilities burn out in five years. For the work I did with folks of adult age, the burn out seemed to be around the 8 year mark. It’s not because of the people. It’s because of our systems.

          With the astronomical amount of regs, the incredible pacing of constant changes, and the inconceivable amount of variables from one individual to the next, my bestest advice is to hitch your wagon to someone else’s much larger wagon first.

          If you would like to see a parallel for what I am talking about, google professional organizers and hoarders. You will need to set boundaries, know how much service you are offering, and know when to say NO.
          Sorry, I sound like Negative Nancy. I just want to be sure you take good care here.

  130. No Time For The Dentist*

    Anyone work in non-profits here?

    I’ve interviewed for a handful of the non-profits in my local area (in entry admin positions, yay being a new grad!) and I loved how most of them had really kick ass benefits. However, it wasn’t uncommon to also hear that the staff are very busy with tight budgets.

    So my question is – if a new job has great benefits but is super busy, how do your supervisors expect you to use those benefits? For example, I need to see a dentist sooner than later. If I start in August and benefits kick in November, would it be a faux-pas if I asked for a day off for medical reasons in early November when I’m the newest hire? I would love to take advantage of the benefits but am not sure if there’s a line between going overboard with it when I’m missing time from work for it? And this would be mostly for medical, because I do have a few medical issues that require me to see around 2-3 specialists for annual visits.

    1. KayDeeAye*

      My non-profit is really, really good about things like doctor appointments. It’s general PTO policy is only so-so, but doctor, dentist, eye doctor appointments are no problem so long as you take ordinary precautions about scheduling them.

      We don’t usually even have to schedule it as time off unless it’s for a half-day or more.

      While it’s not really an easy-going institution, and this might vary a bit from supervisor to supervisor, this is one thing that it is pretty easy-going about. I’ve worked here pretty much forever, but I specifically remember new employees leaving early or coming in late for medical appointments. I don’t know how typical this is, but that’s my experience.

      1. KayDeeAye*

        (Auugh! “Its” not “It’s”! Gosh, but an editing function would be so great.)

      2. No Time For The Dentist*

        Would you mind explaining more about what you mean by taking ordinary precautions? Would it be like making sure no one’s on vacation during that day or no important meetings? In my previous position, I would check to make sure no one else was off for the day and casually told my boss that I’d be gone for half-day/all day due to health appointments which I’d try to get on the same day. Usually never had any issues.

        I was a bit concerned because a lot of the interviewers straight up told me that they are very busy, even more so with COVID-19 making things even busier. Which makes me concerned about whether it’d be bad to ask for 3-4 hours off one day so I can get new dental fillings when all my supervisors are barely able to finish all of their own work.

        1. KayDeeAye*

          For my organization, it’s actually a lot less restrictive even than that. Coming in an hour or 90 minutes late when my supervisor is on vacation would be considered Not A Big Deal At All. Coming late to our annual convention because of a routine appointment…now, that would be bad. Employees are simply expected to make ordinary medical appointments as nondisruptive as possible.

          Now, even at my organization, 4 hours would take some scheduling, unless it was a dental emergency or something (which has happened, though not to me, thank God). But assuming you can plan ahead of time, it would absolutely be considered doable. The attitude here is that everybody needs to take care of their health, and sometimes that means taking off part of a day here or there.

          YMMV, of course.

          Oh, and I should have mentioned that it’s not a question of desk or phone coverage or anything like that. On a day-to-day basis, that isn’t something that I or the other people in my department have to worry about, but it might be different at your prospective non-profit, No Time.

    2. MissBliss*

      It would not be a faux pas to take a day to see the dentist. Maybe a week or two after you start, you can talk to your manager and say you’ve noticed things get busy, so you’d like to get a dental appointment on the calendar for November after your benefits kick in. Ask if there are any dates or events in November that you should be mindful of when scheduling your day off. That’s it!

  131. Blue Flamingo*

    I had someone try to throw me under the bus this week. They tried to hold me responsible for some things that were not mine to do. Two days after having two meetings with management, the chain of command and roles/responsibilities got clarified for them.

    I’ve had better weeks.

    1. London Calling*

      Yes, I can identify, in a way. I had an unpleasant email from my manager blaming me because someone else hadn’t done something they were supposed to do, with a gratuitous jab about my mental health and my performance during WFH (for the record, I have been at the company a few years and have had consistently good reviews. Frankly I’m struggling to see how our relationship can come back from it.

  132. KayDeeAye*

    I work for an organization that has traditionally had a fair amount of resistance to WFH – a couple of employees have managed it, mostly by playing the “I Have Small Children” and “My Commute Would Be Inordinately Long” cards, I think (and my feeling is “Good for them!”), but it’s definitely contrary to our culture. But of course everything changed this spring, and I and basically the entire staff have been WFH since mid-March.

    Well, unlike a lot of people, I really like it – for the most part. There are problems, of course (and yes, I am thinking of YOU, crummy internet provider), but it’s in most ways just as productive and much lower stress than working from the office 5 days/week, and then of course, there’s the fact that I get 1 hour and 29 minutes of my life back by cutting my commute time from 45 minutes each way to 30 seconds each way. And I’ve saved so much money by cutting my gas consumption and making most of my meals myself instead of buying lunch from the cafeteria or a restaurant.

    What I’d really like is to work from home 2-4 days/week permanently. But I have no idea how to sell this. I have been just as productive, so there’s that, but I don’t think that’s enough. Any idea what, aside from productivity, would be good selling points? I’d like to point out the money savings, particularly on gas, which would be fairly easy to calculate, but…I don’t know, that seems sort of iffy because it’s certainly not my organization’s fault that I live so far away. Does anybody have some concrete advice?

    1. MissBliss*

      I plan on having this conversation as well, and my argument really comes down to these things:
      1. Having more time back in my day (2 hours roundtrip commute) allows me to recharge better
      2. Nobody at my org is getting annual salary increases and lack of commute is saving me $$$
      3. The work-from-home experience has given me time to reflect on what is important to me, and what is important in my job. For me, I really do want to be in the office at least 2 days a week, because I need that social aspect– both for my mental health and because my job is very social. But I also have a lot of focus work that is better done from home. Is there any way you can tie your time in/out of the office to respective duties of your job?

      Best of luck!

    2. Mints*

      MissBliss has good points, so I’m adding on:
      – You can offer to have a hot desk or work from a conference room if you get 4 days a week (they can give away your desk! Not that big of a deal for just one person but if it’s a group of you, they’ll save on real estate).
      – You can say that you’re not planning to move away from the area, so if there’s a big meeting like on all-hands, you can come by ad-hoc even if it’s not your designated day.
      – Anything they’ve started since the pandemic (weekly check ins? more frequent one on ones?) say that you’re happy to continue with the new stuff

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I can see these conversations playing out millions of times over as people found they like WFH, having finally got the chance to do so during COVID.

      It will be interesting to see how they play out.
      Will companies listen to the workers? Or will there be a big backlash to WFH trying to pull everyone back to butts in seats.

    4. KayDeeAye*

      Very interesting and helpful. Thanks, guys!

      And I agree, Miss Bliss, that there is almost certainly a whole herd of us out here in WFH land wondering how we can parlay this experience into even more WFH. One way or another, it’ll be very interesting.

  133. The Other Dawn*

    Can anyone help me with an Excel formula? I’ve been Googling a lot today and can’t seem to get it right.

    I need to take a list of individual dollar amounts and put them into dollar ranges. At the moment I have seven ranges I’d like to use, starting with the first one of “500.00 to 2,500.00” and ending with “>15,000.00.” All of the line items listed must fall into one of the seven ranges. I believe I need to do an IF THEN statement (I think), but I can’t find a way to write beyond the basics. I was able to write it with one range and if the amount isn’t in that range, it’s 0. Maybe this is too many ranges for IF THEN? Maybe I need a different formula? I could reduce the number of ranges, but it might make my final results too vague when I summarize.

    1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      What do you need the outcome to be? A count of how many dollar amounts in the list are within each range?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      You can have as many embedded IF/THENs as you want.

      Here’s an example:
      =if(A1<500,"1",if(A1<2500,"2",if(A1<5000,"3")))

    4. LGC*

      Like, I’d do a vlookup into another range, actually!

      Basically, what I’d have is the starting number in one column and then the display range in the next one (let’s say columns P and Q). So it’d be like:

      |__P__|_______Q_______|
      500___|$500.00 to $2500.00|
      …
      15000.01|>$15,000.00_____|

      Let’s say the line item is column A and the range is column B. The formula then becomes (for column B):

      =VLOOKUP(A1,$P$1:$Q$7,2,TRUE)

      (Or you could just do this with tables, which makes the formula simpler.)

      1. LGC*

        Quick explainer, since it seems like you’re not familiar with VLOOKUP: VLOOKUP’s arguments are ([search criteria],[range for results],[relative column to return],[match closest value]). It’ll take the cell in the first part, search the first column of the range for any matches – TRUE returns the last value before the search value, FALSE only returns exact matches – and then returns the matching value in the xth column of that range. In this case, you need to anchor the search range, which is what the dollar signs do.

    5. GeekGirl*

      Anonymous Educator is exactly right. If you need to search, the wording that would probably get the most relevant examples is “how to assign letter grades in excel”. Many good examples, but this has been one of the easiest for me to understand: =IF(G2>89,”A”,IF(G2>79,”B”, IF(G2>69,”C”,IF(G2>59,”D”,”F”)))) Just add as many parts as you need. I’m not sure of your skill level with formulas, so I’ll break down the statement into pieces:
      =IF
      (G2>89,”A”, (if the value in cell G2 is greater than 89, then A)
      IF(G2>79,”B”, (if the value in cell G2 is greater than 79, then B)
      IF(G2>69,”C”, (if the value in cell G2 is greater than 69, then C)
      IF(G2>59,”D”, (if the value in cell G2 is greater than 59, then D)
      “F”)))) (if none of these are true, then F, plus closing parenthesis for all the rest)

      (I LOVE figuring out this type of thing!)

    6. The Other Dawn*

      Thanks everyone! I can do some simple formulas, but I’ve never tackled this one before. At my previous company, it was compiled for me and put into pretty bar graphs. Since the company doesn’t exist anymore and it’s been several years, I can’t ask someone how it was done.

      I thought about a VLOOKUP, the one “complicated” formula I’ve learned, but wasn’t sure if that would work or not.

    7. nymitz*

      I would do this using the “histogram” function of the analysis add-on (which you might have to install – it is part of the basic Excel package, but usually isn’t enabled as a default). I use this tool because usually I need to make a chart showing how many data points fall into each value range, but that might not be what you’re going for.

    8. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Spreadsheet nerdery, yay. I have two suggested solutions.

      OPTION 1: For a similar situation, I’ve used an “array formula” using the COUNTIF function (if you have a more recent version of Excel) or the COUNT(IF()) combination if you’re using an older version of Excel that doesn’t yet have COUNTIF. If you do a search for “array formula” and “COUNTIF”, you should be able to find a guide that walks through each, then you’ll have to combine them. Sorry, I can’t remember where the spreadsheet where I did this is.

      A second possibility (I haven’t tested this) is to create a Pivot Table of your data, then use the GroupBy feature. If you haven’t explored Pivot Tables (and have a version of Excel that supports Pivot Tables; I think it’s 2013 and newer?), then I would highly recommend exploring them as they are quite useful/powerful/user friendly. More drag-and-drop rather than formula-based. I’m pretty sure a Pivot Table would work well.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        I was going to suggest a pivot table!

        COUNTIF (and COUNTIFS for multiple criteria) are really valuable, for this and other analysis.

    9. GeekMom*

      I think the COUNTIFS function will do what you want. Here’s a sample: =COUNTIFS(B2:B8,”>75″, B2:B8,”<90"). Google or use Excel help for details.

  134. Drowned Lab Rat*

    How do you distinguish between poor time management and being given too much work? I’m thought I was usually pretty good at managing my time at work, but I lately I’ve been feeling overwhelmed. Before the pandemic took off in the U.S., I felt like I had a lot of work to do, but my boss always gave me at least 3 or so days of advance notice of what experiments needed to be run. I was free to plan out my days as long as I was getting things done in a timely fashion and my boss would also let me know of any shifting priorities. (I’m an R&D lab tech in the chemical industry, so the vast majority of my work is lab experiments.) However, my workplace had to be shutdown for a few weeks as per the local government’s orders in early March. We worked on what we could from home for a few weeks before the company sent out the dreaded furlough schedule. The furloughs were spread out so that the company could maintain a minimum onsite staffing with social distancing. Due to this, I got shifted to a higher-priority project and was expected to finish what normally would be the work of two people on staggered shifts in only 8 hours. It was overwhelming, but it made sense because I was the only person working on the (new to me) project. After I came back from my furlough, I found out my old boss had transferred to a new site and I was to stay on the same high-priority project. This time, one of my other team members was onsite, but my new boss gave us double the work instead of splitting it between two people like normally did. Naturally, I fell behind on some of my lab tests, but I figured I could catch up once other team member came back. This week, I returned from another furlough and was told I’d be working on a new project, but I still have to help my coworker with the high-priority project. What all this means is that I’m juggling learning my new project while helping my coworker by setting up her experiments for her to finish when she comes in for the next shift. I feel like I have to plan my days down to the minute and I still leave work unfinished everyday because we are capped at 40 hrs a week (non-exempt). I know this may be temporary until my workplace has full staffing again, but do you have any advice on how to deal with feeling overwhelmed?

    1. Emilitron*

      Good time management does not mean manufacturing hours out of nowhere, it means correctly prioritizing tasks on both short-term and long-term scales, and it means recognizing when the work exceeds the time available. It does. You need to talk with your manager, explain how you’re prioritizing, and confirm that they are on board with your plan; and as in many of Alison’s scripts, you also say “so that means I won’t be able to include (task, task task), do you agree that’s the best plan?” But it sounds like you have good time management skills, because you’re very aware of what the problem is!

    2. LQ*

      The good news is you’re capped on time you can spend. This is a big win. You can only accomplish what you can accomplish in 40 hours.

      That said, I don’t know that it’s a problem that you have to plan your days down to the minute. That is time management, and you may be working tighter than you have before so not having quite as much space to be able to jump to the next task without a plan. And it may be totally expected that you will leave work undone.

      Part of this is you need to shift your perspective on it. You are working a very solid 40 hours a week. You are doing it to the best of your ability, you are taking on new work, learning new projects, and helping coworkers. Sounds like you’re doing really well. A check in with your boss is a good idea. But work the 40 and then go home and Life!

  135. I need ANY job (but there aren't any in my field)*

    I used to live in New York and worked a few administrative jobs in the arts industry. I also studied art history in school and all of my job experience has been art-related in some way. Last August, I made a big life change: I quit my job and moved to China to improve my language skills (I grew up speaking but can’t read or write) in hopes that bilingualism would help me get a job in the international art world. But, alas, COVID-19 struck and I moved back to my parent’s in San Diego to stay safe.

    Apart from the fact that my big gamble totally fell apart, I left my job voluntarily and do not qualify for any unemployment, in New York or California. Since I’m living with my parents, expenses are low so I’m not too panicked but I also used up most of my savings to move to China last year. I need a job, any job, if I hope to return to my former life as an independent 20-something who does not live with her parents.

    But, the art scene in San Diego is virtually non-existent. Nearby LA is still pretty shut down and has only a couple of art-related jobs listed right now. I also can’t really afford to move to LA, even if I do get a job there. I’ve been trying to apply for random administrative jobs at healthcare and biotech companies (San Diego’s two biggest industries) but I don’t know how to explain why my experience is in such a wildly different field.

    What is the best way of going about this? Explaining in my cover letter? If I do end up getting an interview and someone asks why I’m changing fields, can I just say “I really need any job right now, regardless of what field it’s in”? Is it crazy to get a random job just to have income? (i.e. will it look weird on my resume in the future?)

    Thanks in advance for your advice!

    1. WellRed*

      Focus on your transferrable skills in admin stuff and don’t overthink the industry thing. Honestly, an art history degree plus being in your twenties? That almost speaks to itself for a change. Lots of people go 360 from their degree. You’ve barely begun a career and now we have a pandemic. You’re good.

    2. LQ*

      I’d agree with WellRed, I don’t think this needs that much explaining. Especially if you’re changing industries, but not really careers. You’re still looking for administrative jobs. Just in a different industry. Lots of people change industries. Even if you were going for a more different job I don’t think it would be in need of explanation. Focus on why you want the job you’re going for.

      And no, it isn’t crazy to take a job because you need money to survive.

    3. Reba*

      You cannot say “a job, a job, any job” to an interviewer, but by the time you get to that point, you’ll have some specifics of the position that will help you tailor an answer. :) I think for these applications, something like “I’m looking to build my career in San Diego* and I would be excited to be a part of [something the organization is known for doing]”

      *whether or not that’s true

      Are you looking at jobs in the interior design/decorating industry?

      What about things that would use your language skills?

    4. Miki*

      Random job to pay the bills = super common in the arts world, unless you are independently wealthy (I used to work in hospitality, knew lots of arts people there).

      The closer you can tie potential new random job to your previous jobs, in terms of the kind of work you’re doing (since you are not looking to transition career permanently), the better you’ll be able to make the case for why you’re applying to that job. Even better if there are also skills you could learn in the new job that would benefit you when you go back into the arts world. As a random example, say you wanted to run big art galas – maybe an admin job that also involved helping out with planning conferences or charity events could give you experience you could use to get a future better job in your field.

      But yeah, you do have to make some show of interest in random job, even if you do just want a job, any job. It doesn’t have to sound like it’s your big passion in life, but you should have a couple things to say about why you’re interested in whatever specific job you’re applying to, whether that’s company culture, interesting work, advancement of skills, etc.

    5. RagingADHD*

      In the real world, most people are doing the best job they could find under the circumstances, most of the time.

      Nobody connected with the art world is going to think an unrelated survival job looks wierd on a resume, especially not looking back on 2020 in the Aftertime.

      Which do you think sounds like a better employee: “The job market was incredibly tight in my field, so I branched out and got experience in x, y, and z.”

      Or: “Yeah, I have that year gap on my resume because I just couldn’t find anything exactly in my field. So I didn’t work.”

  136. Wanna Go Back*

    Is there a way to let my ex-boss know that I’d love to come back to my laid-off position if business improves? But while I’m at a new position?

    I loved my old job so much!! Then covid hit and I got laid off, with my ex-boss urging me to apply for unemployment benefits. He promised that he’d do everything he could to get me back when he could but I heard from another employee that my old company is still laying off more of the staff. So with the very low of chance of being called back, I started applying to new positions (plus I’m terrified that $600 bonus will stop completely at the end of July!!)

    Now I have a new position lined up to start in a week and it’s contingent on reference checks, fingerprints, etc. My ex-boss will definitely give me a good reference but… can I call him when I start my new job, telling him that I would love to go back to my old position if it’s ever open again? :( I really loved the work place culture of my old workplace and the job was what I was more interested in for long-term professional goals. Or will this just weird him out a lot??

    1. Emilitron*

      That’s not too weird. I wouldn’t phrase it as “just call me, I’ll come back to you no questions asked” (that sounds too much like a bad ex-girlfriend). I’d phrase it as how it’s a relief to have a job now, but that it’s not as good of a match to your long-term goals as the previous one, and that’s why you want to keep him and the company in your professional network and stay aware of their job postings. Volunteering to come back if the position is open is different from expressing interest in open positions; the first sounds less mature, like you’ve made a decision without considering all the options or knowing the details, and even if it’s true the assumption that they’d hire you in a heartbeat can come off as unpleasant overconfidence.

      1. Wanna Go Back*

        Thank you for the advice! Would you recommend sending an email, once I know reference checks are done and I’m in the new position? Or would letting him know right now be better??

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Sure, and it’s not weird at all if you were laid off due to COVID.
      So you can reiterate that while you’re relieved to have found suitable employment, you really liked the work and culture of your former company and would be interested in returning to your former role in the future as it was a better fit.

      I must add though, don’t get your hopes up too much.

      1. Wanna Go Back*

        Should I email him before I start?? Or after the reference check is done and I’ve started the new job??

        1. Emilitron*

          Go ahead and email him with your good news! You’ve got a job offer and a contingent start date, you appreciate his help as a reference and want to keep him in your network, etc.

  137. NeonDreams*

    Growth victory: Not pushing my boss about a metric related to my job even though I absolutely LOATHE it. I hate that it’s there and wish it wasn’t, but I can’t change that.

  138. Rectilinear Propagation*

    I know a resume isn’t necessarily supposed to list all the jobs you’ve ever had but what about the Work History section of a job application? Is there more of an expectation that this will be more complete than your resume might be?

    I’m not talking about summer jobs from your teens when you’re now in your 30s, I mean something like a 3 month stint at a company that didn’t work out. You don’t have to put it on your resume but, in general*, should it be in the Work History section of an application anyway? Would employers expect you to do that?

    *By “in general” I mean jobs that don’t explicitly require your entire work history for security reasons.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Read the fine print on the application – some have a clause on the signature page that says your signature attests that you have given them a complete history and everything you said is true. Some only mention the latter. Make sure you know which is which and go from there.

  139. Emilitron*

    I’m feeling really crappy about a recruiting contact. My division is led by 3 managers of which I’m not one, but I’m fairly senior on the team. We’re hiring – I was told by one manager “at all levels”. I reached out to a professor friend, who recommended a graduating student; I showed my manager her resume and on his advice did a phone-screen, had a great conversation and encouraged her to apply though our job site. Then was told the other managers think we should only be hiring with more experience, not entry-level. Now she’s following up with me to see why nobody’s contacted her when I strongly implied they would, and I am seriously procrastinating on replying to that email. I feel pretty terrible about it. On top of that, she’s a minority candidate, and while I have faith that management is not consciously swerving path to avoid her I feel extra crappy telling her “sorry, after seeing all your information they mysteriously decided there’s not an opening after all”. But I can’t leave her hanging.
    I can’t even phrase a “how do I handle this” question because the answer is obvious – just do it! and know that if I ever want to be a manager I’d better get used to this kind of unpleasant work.

    1. Nanc*

      I think you can just contact her and say you understand the Powers that Be have decided the position requires more experience and are revisiting the candidate pool/deciding whether to repost/have the attention span of a goldfish or whatever.

      It’s fine to repeat you enjoyed talking with her and wish her luck in her job search.

      This is a part of applying for work–at least until we develop the technology to scan everyone’s brains and match them with the perfect job without them even being aware. They just get a text message with the details of the new position and where to report on the start date!

      You didn’t do anything wrong and you’re a nice person because you hate to leave candidates twiddling their thumbs and wondering what’s going on.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I’m sorry, I was told we were looking for entry-level applicants, but after we talked, I learned that’s not the case. But I enjoyed talking to you, and if anything changes, I’ll be sure to let you know.”

  140. Desperate for wipes*

    Super late, desperate post. Does anyone know of any companies that have disinfecting wipes in stock and the ability to ship to Colorado? Boundtree and all of my other go to suppliers are out.

    1. nep*

      I stumbled on a craigslist listing the other day–pack of six canisters of disinfectant wipes new in package. Never know, you might find someone selling them on CL. (This particular seller marked them up quite a bit, but he’ll probably make the sale…)

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Screaming because price gouging is still happening. At least CL is a better place to do that than Amazon.

        BTW you can get a 4 pack on Amazon for $90 as we speak, with $13 shipping. I’d laugh if I wasn’t so disgusted.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I was just dealing with this the other day. No, they’re out everywhere. Keep checking Costco is my best advice, they get stock but it’s quickly snatched up and on a 1 per person allotment when it does arrive. I finally got disinfectant spray, sigh.

      Constantly check Amazon. Do you have Amazon Prime? I have found them in Amazon Pantry every so often. But you of course only get a small amount…so I don’t know how much you’re trying to source but you’ll have to play the “one pack at a time” game. I hope you’re not trying to stock a large facility or anything like that :( :( :(

      Best case is to keep googling regularly. If you are NOT a current client of the mega distributors, they won’t take you on at this time of shortage.

      1. Desperate for wipes*

        Thanks everyone. I’m buying for a facility. In less than a month I’ll have 50 people here 24/7 and checking Costco etc every day is becoming exhausting :( Oh well Covid happens I guess.

    4. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Can you use an alternative, like paper towels and appropriate cleaning spray? Not as convenient but might be easier to find.

      1. Melon*

        Check your local office janitorial supply stores. My local place here in Vegas has a mixture of them in stock and some available for preorder. I remember seeing Staples / OfficeDepot advertising they were going to be stocking too but not sure how difficult those are to get. Either way, places that target businesses are your best bet for quantity.

  141. It's bananas*

    My boss yelled at me today because I entered a Teapot order incorrectly. A coworker from a different department quit and I had to fill in the order for her. It involved different codes and numbers, so I was a bit confused. Boss was not happy. Boss and my coworkers make remarks that “people are stupid” and things like that, when they don’t take the time to tell or teach people what they should do. I never had training on this like they had, so I feel that it’s unfair to yell at me over this.

    Has anyone been through this? What did you do?

    1. whistle*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. If you are in an environment where people passive-aggressively call you stupid, the only advice I can really give is to job search because that is not normal or OK.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      Literally yelling, like shouting raised voice angry? Or yelling more in the sense of speaking in a normal volume but chastising and clearly irritated?

      1. It's bananas*

        Chastising and clearly irritated, but at an increased pitch so like they wanted to yell.

  142. Casey*

    I was idly looking through job postings to prep for the upcoming recent grad job search, and I saw this sentence in one description: “Must love dogs, BBQ, and a good laugh!”
    I would loooove to know the thinking behind this inclusion, because honestly it triggered a little tiny alarm in my head. Not a big one, just a little “huh??”
    Dogs: probably they have a dog-friendly office? understandable.
    BBQ: maybe the office gets together outside of work often and it’s an important part of the culture? the emphasis on barbeque is odd though….
    A Good Laugh: Okay, this is the one that sticks out to me the most. I feel like this is the kind of office where people say shitty things under the guise of a joke, and then when you don’t find it funny, push you out because you just “don’t fit.”

    Maybe I’m reading too much into this, but what a strange thing to include in your job posting! I love all three of these things, but somehow this is rubbing me the wrong way. Would anyone else like to wildly speculate with me?

    1. nep*

      That would be a turnoff to me.
      Not really for these reasons–this is partly tongue-in-cheek, but: I don’t hate dogs, but I’d rather not be around them; I’m vegan and I reckon they’re not BBQ-ing parsnips; ‘a good laugh’–I’d be concerned they’d want people who laugh at the same things they do.
      I’d overthink this, but in the end it would be a turnoff in a job ad.
      Interesting. I do wonder what’s behind it.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, that’d be a hard no from me. And I do love dogs, but saying you must love dogs isn’t a big draw for me. Same thing for BBQ. And, yeah, I agree “a good laugh” sounds to me like “we will make crass jokes, and you’d better not be offended by anything.” Hard pass. Same “work hard, play hard,” or “we’re a family,” or anything about “happy hours” or “rock stars.”

    3. whistle*

      I do love dogs, BBQ , and a good laugh, and I totally hate this company and their job posting.

      Now, I’m gonna head on home, pet my dog, laugh with my husband, and check out what’s for dinner. What does that have to do with work again?

    4. Miki*

      Eh, I’m a vegetarian who is lukewarm on dogs (not laughs though), but I think it’s just an offhand attempt at making the job ad feel a little less impersonal, and I wouldn’t take it so seriously.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Agreed — this is just a company trying to make their ad less impersonal. I wouldn’t read a ton into it, definitely not as much as people are doing here.

    5. blepkitty*

      This sets my “bullies people who don’t fit into conservative WASP-y norms” senses tingling. I can be overly sensitive, but the combination of those three things being mentioned in a job ad just sounds like someone who proudly displays the confederate flag and spends an awful lot of time hating vegetarians. It doesn’t make my feminist, atheist, bi self feel very safe.

      (I can’t understand people wanting to work with dogs around, though. Like, sure, if it’s a quiet dog that doesn’t need attention constantly and just wants to chill around people, that’s fine. But “must love dogs” implies something different.)

    6. RagingADHD*

      I like all 3 of those things just fine.

      But that sounds more like a dating profile than a job description.

      You should ask in your cover letter if they like pina coladas.

  143. A Ryan Seacrest type*

    Open letter to anyone that’s in a decision-making capacity right now. This is what I’m thinking about my organization and what I wish I could say to them. First look at the coronavirus statistics. Then stop asking me if I am comfortable leaving my home to run errands. I say ok because I’m a young dude without savings that desperately needs his job. I say ok because I am afraid that if I do not my name will be pushed to the layoff list. You know that I’m new and in danger of said list. You make double the amount that I do and would never go out yourself, but are asking me to go for non-essential tasks. Ask yourself if you, personally, would be willing to die in order to get something done. After that hopefully you will think twice before sending someone to perform that task. No, I am not comfortable leaving my home in a global pandemic. I am resentful. I am livid. Most of all I am fearful for my life. It’s not a good business decision either. The quality of my work is suffering because I’m in a constant state of panic. I bad mouth you to anyone and everyone who will listen. I will leave the first chance I get because you have shown a blatant disregard for my wellbeing. All of the virtual happy hours, wellness newsletters, and various check-ins in no way hide your disregard for my life.

    1. nep*

      Shout it from the rooftops.
      I feel for you. Hope things get better.
      Peace and may you stay well.

  144. LQ*

    Do you want attention from managers several levels above you? Like do you want your boss’s boss’s boss to take an interest in your work?

    1. Goat girl*

      I have had managers who send the occasional email summarizing key contributors in a big win or quarterly accomplishments and copying several bosses up the chain. That’s a good way to “introduce” team members to upper management. But it takes having a manager who doesn’t take all the credit for herself and that is hit and miss. I like my grandboss to know my name and what I do. Above that, I don’t fret. At my company, senior leaders change all the time and I don’t get attached to them.

    2. Alex*

      My boss’s boss’s boss is universally hated and a known micromanager, so…..no! Lol. More generally it would be nice to hear once in a while “I hear from your manager that you really knocked it out of the park on that teapot project!” or “The board was really impressed with the results of the Llama Karaoke Campaign! Good work!” but more than that might seem a bit weird.

      1. Kate H*

        This is me. Also, the man has berated my boss and my boss’s boss for work (often that I did) not being exactly what he had in mind (when he didn’t explain what he had in mind) so many times that whenever he does thank me or compliment my work, it feels disingenuous.

    3. Beatrice*

      My boss’s boss does take an interest in my work – sometimes more than I’d like. He doesn’t understand what I do, he’s kind of like a bull in a china shop when he gets involved, sometimes he yells, and he’s hard to say no to or redirect when he’s on the wrong path. I handle it better than most would, I think – I have a pretty thick skin, I can be direct, and am comfortable correcting him or even ignoring him when he’s off. (It helps that we have a good rapport, he respects me, and also that my boss supports me and has a strong rapport with him as well.)

      The part I struggle with the most is that my work is complicated, and he’s always wanting me to simplify it for him. I can’t ever seem to get it simple enough. And when I oversimplify, he asks a bunch of questions. I have one complex concept that I’ve rewritten for him at least 6 times in varying degrees of detail (the simplest was three sentences.) My friend joked that I need to restate it for him in emoji format because that’s the only thing I haven’t tried yet.

    4. allathian*

      My great-grandboss is the head honcho of my org, we’re a very flat organization. He’s pleasant enough to talk to when I happen to see him in the elevator etc. I’d be surprised if he knew my name without the ID smartcard we must wear in a visible place whenever we’re not sitting at the computer.

    5. Alianora*

      It varies from workplace to workplace, but generally, yes. For me it has always been an advantage when upper management took an interest in my work, because I was able to impress them and get opportunities to work on more interesting things.

    7. Middle Manager*

      I work very closely with my grandboss. To the point that he’s about as much my boss as my actual direct supervisor. I also work with my great-grand boss some, she definitely knows my name and my work quality and has given me good feedback.

      I’m torn on how to feel about it. On the one hand, I’m very glad multiple layers of management respect me and my work and acknowledge it. On the other hand, I’m very routinely being asked to do work clearly above my pay grade. At first it was flattering. As time has worn on, some days I’d like to scream, “I’d be happy to do this extremely complex/high level task when you start paying me like I’m a high level employee”. But you know, government. Also COVID. So at least at the moment, there is not a snowball’s chance they will and I try to stay focused on the long term and the reputation I’m building for when things are better.

  145. Kate H*

    People who left a toxic job for a less-toxic job, how did you find the courage to take the plunge? How did you find the energy for a job hunt while still working the toxic job? Were you afraid that you could just be leaving one hell for another?

    I was thinking about looking for a new position before COVID, but it was always in a “couple years down the line” way. The pandemic has just really compounded our management issues. I genuinely feel like I’m risking my life going to the office every day and I want to leave so bad it burns. Obviously, this is the worst possible time to be job hunting and I’m looking for a job that’s 100% remote always, not just during COVID, so that makes things even more difficult. I’m trying to convince myself that I won’t know if I don’t try and the worst case scenario is I stay in this situation, but I’m having trouble taking that first step.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Basically use the weekends for the job search and applying. If you get interviews, try to schedule them first thing at 8am to minimize away time.

      Yes, it can be difficult to keep up the energy, but you will feel positive you ate doing something about it!

    2. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      Kate, I send you all my solidarity vibes! As a ‘Toxic Job Survivor’ ‘Hellmouth Victor’ (and other ridic names I like to describe this), please know that there IS hope.
      First, you’re in the right place to start here at AAM. Look at Alison’s posts about resumes, cover letters, etc, which she recently revisited here. Read one or two when you’re up to it. I know. A “TJ” takes every bit of your inner force and sometimes you’re just too friggin exhausted. But those articles will be your inspiration and a worthy distraction. (When I started at my TJ, I didn’t know about AAM. For the past 2 years, its helped me maintain my sanity.)
      As you get inspiration from her posts over time, you’ll feel empowered to begin the process of updating your resume, putting you in control. As you proceed, you will find the courage you desire and will feel less fear about ending up in another TJ. As I finally began that journey, and applying for jobs, someone referred me to another part time job opportunity and I was hired, thankfully! I work at new ‘normal job’ 4 days/week and at TJ only 1 day a week now. (Because $) But I’m on my way to a complete exit from TJ when possible. New Normal Job isn’t perfect, but I’m so happy I had the courage to make the move.
      Keep in mind that there will be an adjustment period at your new job, because of “TJ PTSD” – there is such a thing. A toxic job is NOT normal, and isn’t it weird how coworkers act like it is?! When you know it isn’t?! Crazy, amirite! A TJ will cause sleepiness nights, overwhelming stress and depression, overthinking everything and obsessing about how upset you feel. It really messes with your mind, maaaannn! Just remember, it is NOT you. You know that, and you’re smart to know what you want. You came here to state that. And that is courageous! You’re gonna be alright and you will be rewarded. I promise! Jedi Hugs to you!

      1. Kate H*

        Thank you! I actually credit AAM with getting my TJ. I kept Alison’s advice in mind when writing my resume and even asked the magic question in my interview. There isn’t much I could’ve done to recognize it as toxic at the time (it’s gotten worse over the years and I was desperate enough to try anything full-time that would take me). I know that it’s going to take a lot of active work for me to un-learn the coping habits I’ve learned from this place.

    3. Argh!*

      I have been looking for a less toxic job for several years. In the meantime I developed several stress-related (and costly!) health issues.

      One thing I’m working on is my “why I want to work at [less toxic place]” story. A lot of people will be re-examining job fit during COVID, so you have that going for you. You can frame your job search as “I discovered that I can be more efficient working from home than I was working in an office,” which would give off a positive vibe.

      I’m finding the opposite — I want to be around people! …. people who know how to be human beings.

    4. Amariy*

      Solidarity! I’m doing job applications now to try to escape a toxic job. What has worked for me is carving out 30-60 minutes of lunch break each weekday and applying for 1 job per day as long as a suitable one crosses my path. I have a habit-tracking app on my phone to encourage actually doing it, and it’s possible because I have a solid template cover letter that just needs tweaks to be personalized for a specific application. I can’t wait for the weekend because I’m so burned out and need a recharge by the time I get there.

      As for how I knew, the pandemic really kicked my ass into it, terrible market and all. I’m temporarily remote but there have been furloughs, layoffs, pay and benefits cuts, and a hiring freeze. I was only hanging on in the hopes of getting a title bump and then leaving with that, so when promotions froze I knew I had to get out ASAP. I am worried about a new job being toxic too, but I’ve truly reached BEC with my current company and there’s no saving it. I’m trying to ask the right questions in interviews to avoid the red flags but I’m also starting to worth it’s being held against me! No offers yet but I’m on my 4th second interview so just trying to hang in until I get something! It feels great to be trying to leave, though, so I do recommend it. Good luck!

  146. Amelia Shepherd*

    Is how I get to work my employer’s problem? I work part-time at a library (12 hours/week) and to get there I have to take either a ~$20 Uber ride or public transit for a couple hours (in non pandemic times, I like being able to zone out, and I don’t drive). They only schedule me for 4 hours at a time, three day’s a week. My stepfather thinks I should talk to them about having the hours be longer, like 6 hours one day, 6 the next, that I should explain the situation. I did talk to them about this awhile ago, because we were asked to give feedback, but with everything that’s been happening, this is the last thing in their minds (rightly so). I will say, I knew that the job would be 4 hours at a time when I took it, but honestly I had been job searching for months when I got offered this.

    But is this something I could ask about?

    I’m hesitant to ask for anything related to hours because I have another part time job and I once asked to switch off with someone for a specific night (not get off that night completely, just alternate with someone else) and got told no, mostly because my other job makes scheduling difficult (they knew I had this other job when they hired me and I made sure they knew my schedule so it wouldn’t be a problem but then it got thrown back in my face).

    I can see the schedules for other departments and they have people who work the same hours as me but their manager sometimes does give them 6 and 6. Should I bring this up if I ask?

    1. Miki*

      Short answer: no, it’s not their problem, and I would be concerned given that they have been inflexible about your schedule in the past. I think you might have more success framing it around covid-related concerns (eg, reducing exposure to public transit/Ubers by going in for longer hours but less frequently), or just inquiring about how other departments do 6 hour shifts (maybe there is something different about the work that one schedule makes more sense vs the other) without bringing up your commute first.

      1. Amelia Shepherd*

        yeah in all honesty i probably won’t ask, just because they weren’t even really willing to work with me the last time i asked something. like if i had asked this at my other job, i know they’d at least be willing to try to figure out a solution…. but not this place.

        but thank you, i like your framing!

    2. BRR*

      It’s a know your workplace. If it wouldn’t really be a problem it’s fine, but if it’s more coverage based position I’d be a bit irritated if an employee applied and accepted a job knowing the commute and then ended up asking to change their schedule.

      1. Amelia Shepherd*

        this is fair.

        i’m just wondering why other departments, who have the same coverage needs (we all have to have someone in each front-facing department when we’re open) have their people doing 2 6 hour shifts a week but my department doesn’t. i’d love to not have to work almost every day of the month…. so that’s what i’d like to ask about, if i can figure out how. i just don’t want my other job to be thrown in my face again.

        1. BRR*

          I’d try and ask people at your level in those departments. It’s a safer ask than asking to change your schedule.

    3. Argh!*

      Go ahead and ask! Lots of organizations are taking a second look at the way they schedule people, so it couldn’t hurt to ask. Working fewer days but longer hours puts you at less risk during your commute and also at work.

      1. valentine*

        Working fewer days but longer hours puts you at less risk during your commute and also at work.
        I would say this is the only angle to play, especially if you took the job pre-pandemic, or if your manager maybe doesn’t know that you’ve had to Uber. (And if you are mostly paying to work, consider leaving the job. Would the other place give you more hours?)

        It’s best not to look at the greener grass because there’s no reason your department has to run the way another does, the answer is probably infuriating, like “Corey doesn’t wanna,” and they treated you like an indentured servant when you tried to switch shifts.

  147. Check your checks!*

    I’ve just learned my employer is rounding the hours that employees work to the half hour at each shift. Not the *nearest* half hour, mind you. Anything 20 min or less is rounded down, 21 minutes or more rounded up.
    This is clearly favoring the company! Because of what I do, I often work 15-20 minutes more than an hour. My last paycheck was down 3+ hours of pay from my usual hours.
    I noticed but only looked closely when another employee asked if it happened to me, too. She emailed HR, they called her to explain, emphasizing that sometimes we will get rounded up. She asked for the policy in writing, they’ve ghosted. I sent my own email asking for the policy to be communicated in writing. I am hoping if enough employees are asking about it and asking for the policy in writing, they’ll realize employees are not happy and stop it. I feel like they already know they can’t give written proof of this policy. THEY KNOW what they’re doing.
    This is a large company with 500+ employees, mostly hourly, and all clocking in/out is done by swiping or tapping our badges.
    Honestly, in this day and age, it’s all done by computer and there’s no need to round AT ALL.

    2. Miki*

      Not a lawyer, but this is what federal law says about rounding:

      “For enforcement purposes this practice of computing working time [rounding] will be accepted, provided that it is used in such a manner that it will not result, over a period of time, in failure to compensate the employees properly for all the time they have actually worked.” 29 CFR § 785.4

      Seems like a pretty clear violation. I wonder how much money you might get back if you filed a wage claim..?

    3. BRR*

      If you’re in the US the FLSA states that you can round employee time to a quarter hour of work. You can round down employee time from 1-7 minutes, but you must round up employee time from 8-14 minutes and count it as a quarter hour of work. So what they’re doing is actually illegal.

      1. valentine*

        So what they’re doing is actually illegal.
        No sense hoping ambushing thieves will see the light. Send HR the statute as, “My understanding is…”

  148. Some dude on the Internet*

    What’s the etiquette on visiting a former workplace, especially if you were involuntarily let go?

    Recently one of my old co-workers reached out to me for old times’ sake. He has always been a great guy, and I would love to catch up with him after the pandemic ends. Only one problem: I was let go for “underperformance” after I gave my boss critical feedback during the annual manager survey (protip: never assume these are anonymous). I did some searching on this site and found a relevant post (“my boss fired me and won’t let me return to visit friends”), and the consensus is that you shouldn’t go back to visit a company you were fired from. But here’s the difference:

    1. This happened over three years ago.
    2. As far as I’m aware, nobody else knows I was let go. For people who realized it was my last day, I told them I was leaving to join a startup. My old co-workers generally held me in high regard.
    3. My old boss no longer works there either. I had heard through the grapevine that he got fired himself (good riddance).

    So my question is: would it be kosher for me to visit him? I’ve also heard from some people that it’s not polite to visit people at work even if you weren’t let go as it could create a distraction. Is this true? Or does it depend on the nature of the workplace? (For the record, this is not a public-facing workplace.)

    1. Argh!*

      My old boss got fired, too! I would go to visit if I hadn’t found a job 300 miles away. The previous boss had kind of let me go — I was transferred during a reorganization, and she kept her pet and let me go to the other division. Her pet was a do-nothing suck-up who quickly left after having his job duties doubled, and that boss got cancer and died. Karma. It took me a long time to get over what happened, but I would go back if I could. Some of the people who survived layoffs and reorganization were really nice people I’d like to touch base with.

    2. PX*

      Why go to the workplace? Why not just arrange to meetup for drinks with your coworker? Because to me, yes, its a little weird going back to a former workplace just to chitchat and hangout with people.

    3. Emilitron*

      I’ve always worked in workplaces that you need badges to enter and he’d need to fill out a visitor form to have you there. In that case obviously NO, do not visit.

      If you’re talking college campus and people are coming and going all the time, of course YES, it’s completely open, go visit.

      There’s a middle ground with a receptionist who you have to tell him “I’m here to see John” and he calls back to say “Mr Smith, there’s a Mr Jones here for you”. I’d say no to that, too.

      Really, unless there’s something magical about the office that you want to see again, just set up a lunch appointment at the place that everybody eats. (If that’s an internal cafeteria, only eat there if you sometimes used to see people’s families and kids meet them there for lunch)

  149. Anonnington*

    Zoom! I’m still getting used to Zoom. Every time I use it, I keep looking at my own picture and feeling like I don’t look professional. You know how it is with lighting and cameras. It always looks a bit off.

    And the conversations just aren’t as natural as face to face ones. The whole thing is still weirding me out.

    This is bothering me more now that the pandemic is at a lower point in NYC. During the height of it all, I had much bigger concerns. Obviously, I’m concerned for the rest of the world right now. But day to day life for me is back to approaching normal.

    I just had a Zoom meeting today where I kept thinking I looked like I was wearing makeup and how that seemed really inappropriate for that particular meeting, and I imagined that people were reacting to it, like I was making them uncomfortable. A valid concern exaggerated to the point of anxiety.

    Is anyone else going through the same thing?

    1. Argh!*

      I had a meeting today in which I felt fat through the whole thing. Not one other overweight person of about 30 there. The camera added 100 lbs.!

      1. Anonnington*

        I empathize.

        I feel like the distraction is the biggest issue. For me. I’m less focused on the content of the meeting because I’m looking at a distorted mirror image of myself.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          I hear you! I have a minor case of rosacea and without fail it comes up on camera during Zoom meetings. I won’t see it in the mirror unless I’m almost pressing my nose against it but on a Zoom call it’s standing out in relief. So annoying. It was even worst when I had a patch of perioral dermatitis under my nose in May. In-person, it was OK but on Zoom, I felt like Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. Ugh.

    2. Choggy*

      I think what makes it difficult is the constant mirror in your face. In person meetings don’t cause the same anxiety because you are only looking at the other people. Wish there was a way to share video without seeing myself too.

      1. I take tea*

        In Zoom there actually is a setting to hide your own video. I do that, as soon as I have checked that the angle and background is OK. It’s such a relief not to see yourself all the time.

        1. Anonnington*

          That’s good to know! I’ll probably keep mine on, though. I like to check that the lighting is ok and that I don’t look too weird.

    3. Anonnington*

      I’m getting distracted by the image and sound quality as a whole too. I was just in a meeting and I felt like I was watching some random public access tv show or home-made documentary from a bygone era. The images were distorted like old film and there was a kind of awkwardness inherent to the whole thing. I guess I just need to get used to it.

  150. Argh!*

    Bosses not using video when the rest of us are — I don’t like it! I feel if people who make less than half or a quarter of what they do can muster the bandwidth and the technology to participate with video, the top brass should too!

    /rant

  151. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

    So yesterday I turned down a job, and I’m not sure it was the right move. However it would have required a long, but temporary, relocation and I’m not sure that would be very good right now. They have another project coming up in a few months that might be better suited to my life, though.

  152. Claire*

    How are people in client facing roles training new staff while working from home and how are people finding being trained right now? We have some new hires in general orientation right now and I am expected to give job specific training once complete. I can share my computer screen, so I am comfortable training her on the database and other computer related tools.

    My concern is the phone calls. Pre-covid we would use a double headset and she would listen to me answer calls and vice versa. There is no ability to do that with the current work from home set up. I checked with IT to ensure I wasn’t missing a way to do that.

    We are going to try roleplaying, although I have never done it before. Anyone with any tips?
    Also, while we desperately need new staff, I am worried that we are setting her and the other hires up for failure.

    1. Problem solved*

      In my company sellers are using Zoom. The person being trained mutes herself and listens to the call made via phone by the other employee who puts the call on speakerphone.

  153. Drowned Lab Rat*

    I had a phone interview with a large chemical company that has a lab near me about a month ago. The recruiter was employed directly by the company and had initially contacted me via email. We set up a time for him to call me while I was on my lunch break at work. I get absolutely no cellphone service inside the building, so I usually have WiFi calling turned on if my boss needs to contact me when he’s working from home. I went outside to take the recruiter’s call, but I hadn’t realized that I forgot to turn of WiFi calling, so the connection was bad. I called him back on the number he used to call me and we talked for around 20 minutes. I’m in the U.S. and at the time I didn’t pay any mind to the fact that he called from an Ontario number. Earlier this morning I saw that my cellphone bill was $35 higher than usual. The bill listed an international call charge and I scrolled through my recent phone calls to since I hadn’t quite remembered that the recruiter’s number had a Canadian area code. I looked back at the email he sent and that was the only phone number provided in his email signature. His position was listed as the recruiter for the North American sector of the company. Should I just let this go or should I professionally let him know that he should clarify that he is located in Canada in his email signature? I think I’m going to leave a glassdoor review this company. This clearly isn’t my fault, but I’m feeling pretty dumb about this whole thing.

    1. valentine*

      Should I just let this go or should I professionally let him know that he should clarify that he is located in Canada in his email signature? I think I’m going to leave a glassdoor review this company.
      This is a disproportionate reaction. He’s not obligated to have his location in his signature and what you needed was his area code’s designation.

      This clearly isn’t my fault
      It’s not his fault your plan charges so much for international calls.

    2. Can Do Attitude Can Suck It*

      Let it go. It isn’t his fault! North America includes Canada. He didn’t do anything wrong. He isn’t obliged to list his location in his email sig, and that would be a super weird thing to tell him! You ignored the fact he was calling from Ontario. You didn’t turn off WiFi calling, necessitating calling him back. Seems like you made an unwarranted assumption he would be in the USA. It’s all on you, I’m afraid!

  154. John S*

    What’s the best way to get laid off so I can get on unemployment?

    I have a college degree, but I work part time at a grocery store for minimum wage. I only make about $500/biweekly. The $600/week in unemployment would be more than 3 times my take home pay at the moment. I feel like an absolute fool working while people are making so much money sitting at home doing nothing. I’m literally losing money by working instead of being unemployed

    Is there any way I can get laid off so I can get on unemployment?

    1. valentine*

      I feel like an absolute fool working while people are making so much money sitting at home doing nothing.
      To be fair, it’s not 1:1. They have no guarantee of future employment and you don’t want to be unemployed. You want to be paid more while not working, which isn’t an option. Doesn’t the bonus end this month? Would you be happy with two-thirds pay/regular unemployment from August through the foreseeable future?

      I would think your job is in demand. Are there no better-paying jobs you could do that would happily snap you up right now?

      1. John S*

        If they extend the $600/week bonus until the end of the year, then I couldn’t care less about future employment. I work at a grocery store, it’s not like I’d be giving up a financial analyst position at Goldman Sach’s.

        This is the best paying job I’ve been able to find since graduating college. I’d literally kill for a real, office-type job, but that’s a fairy tale at this point. So I’d rather sit at home and get paid triple my wages for doing nothing

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