open thread – August 28-29, 2020

by Alison Green on August 28, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Isthisreallife*

    I need some people to confirm this is really bizarre behavior. Fair warning this is long.

    The mother of a coworker recently passed away. This coworker is someone who I talk to and work with semi regularly, and who my boss works with a lot. Our building has a few open office spaces and I was in one when someone asked who still hadn’t signed a sympathy card. I said that I hadn’t signed and then offered to bring it to the next office, specifically my boss since I knew he’d want to sign since they work really closely and have for 10+ years. It turned out that someone in that office hadn’t signed so I gave it to her and went back to my office.

    When I got upstairs I received a text from a coworker, saying that it was fine that I signed the card and that my boss could but that it wasn’t meant to be a company wide thing, and it was really just for her department. So I told her that I hadn’t been planning on like bringing it around, but I figured my boss and some of the other people in my department may want to sign. She then said that in the future I should ask because it was something that she and two other coworkers had decided to do, and other people wanted to just jump on the bandwagon without putting in any effort or contributing.

    For a sympathy card.

    I didn’t respond because I couldn’t even figure out what the appropriate response would be. I definitely and up with some creative in appropriate responses though.

    2. LimeRoos*

      Yeah that’s super weird. At old job the manager would get the card and it’d be in a folder with a sheet of peoples names, you pass it to someone who wasn’t crossed off, cross your name off after signing (or just crossing it off and passing it on if you didn’t want to sign) and boom done. No weird who started what or gets credit.

      It’s also kind of gross they’re wanting credit for starting a sympathy card. Like, it’s a card, it’s minimal effort at best.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      People are weird about grief, even other people’s grief. People are also weird about cards, particularly sympathy cards. I wouldn’t respond and I’d try not to hold it against them.

      1. ToS*

        This – grief can produce one-time behavior that can be really unexpected.

        Also, there are office cards and personal cards. If someone personally bought the card, I would grant more grace, especially since there is more financial uncertainty now than ever.

        If the card was from an office, that’s your sign that they are very, very tightly wound about any budget item, and move on from there.

      2. eeniemeenie*

        People can be weird about grief all they like; but it doesn’t excuse the rudeness in this situation.

        It’s kind that you can refrain from total judgment here. But if it was the coworker writing in, my advice would be that they are free to feel whatever annoyance/grief/etc they feel in this situation; but if they’re going to have an unnecessarily rude reaction like this it’s going to affect their relationship with their colleagues and other people would (very understandably) judge them.

        I’m really tired of people trying to find excuses for bizarre and inappropriate behaviour.

        1. TG*

          This. Yes, you should be graceful when people are dealing with grief. But this isn’t the person truly grieving. This is the coworker of the person who’s grieving. Yes, you shouldn’t contribute to more rudeness in the world but you also shouldn’t make excuses for someone who is being weird and controlling over a sympathy card and credit. Believe me the person who lost is mother will love seeing everyone’s name on it and does not care about credit. If they knew, their coworker was acting like this, it would hurt them in their grief.

    4. Aquawoman*

      I agree with you that that is extra. I have experienced the phenomenon of trauma police at work, though. E.g. co-worker died (and it was awful) and months later, his office got cleaned out, and someone who barely dealt with the co-worker got very upset about it. I think this is an emotional vampire kind of move.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I can see where the death of even a distant person might upset someone depending on the circumstances, but acting out about it makes it all about the griever, not the person who died.

        Similarly, making a point to text you about how “it’s fine that you signed, *I guess*, but it was just supposed to be *our* thing” is … weird. Definitely not worth another thought.

      2. Jean (just Jean)*

        Modern, post-industrial, publicly secular, youth-emphasizing society does not give many opportunities for folks to learn how to handle death (whether or not one is close to the person who died). Maybe the person who got so upset was having an episode of learning, not of emotional vampirism or narcissism.

        For the record I’m not advocating an immediate return to a pre-industrial, wall-to-wall official religion society…just saying that a lot of my own lessons in death and dying took place among folks who more or less shared my religious affiliation & outlook. But enough distraction.

        1. HungryLawyer*

          Funny that you say that because the people in my life who act like emotional vampires when someone is sick or dies are mostly religious and older…

          Personally, I doubt that OP’s co-worker’s age or religion had much to do with their weird behavior since it seems like it was an attention-seeking action rather than a grief-based one.

        2. NopeNopeNope*

          A lot of my lessons came from religion, too.

          Most of them were lessons on “why you shouldn’t rely on something historically known for manipulating the masses into committing atrocities at best, and suggesting that the best way for a society to function is for everybody to agree to follow a single norm which just coincidentally happens to be the norm we think should be norm, to regulate your behavior.”

          But y’know. That’s probably just me.

    5. phonebook10*

      What! With cards you would want as many people to sign as possible! That’s weird.

      Isn’t there something Alison says in these situations? I can’t remember what it is but it’s some kind of response like, ‘oh you want to keep the card just your department? How interesting, sure.’ Like, there’s some little ‘how interesting’ type phrase that implies that other person has odd views or practices. Like, you’re saying ‘I will respect your views but this is weird.’ I’m stuck on the action words.

      1. WellRed*

        In my office, sympathy cards are the one kind of card we DON”T pass around. Anyone who wants to send a sympathy card does their own (I don’t why we do this but maybe it’s more sincere seeming?)

        This office, however, is weird.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          Yeah, that’s our MO as well in my office. We pass around cards to congratulate people on their work anniversaries (which we do instead of birthdays because it’s less personal and less potentially fraught), and to say goodbye to people who are leaving, but we don’t pass around sympathy cards. If the bereaved says it’s OK, their manager will let folks know about what happened and say “you’re welcome to send a card or other message of sympathy” or something like that.

        2. Malarkey01*

          Same, we don’t pass around sympathy or get well cards. Get well cards aren’t typically unless someone has something really serious where they’ll be out a significant amount of time (heart attack, serious car accident, etc).

          I think this person was a bit much, but I don’t think it’s that over the top.

        3. CatLadyInTraining*

          Yes! That’s how it goes in my office. If it’s an employee or their spouse or child who passes away, the HR lady will send some flowers on behalf of the whole company or the CEO will donate to a relevant charity in lieu of flowers in the company’s name.

      2. Grapey*

        Eh, I personally liked that the sympathy card I’ve received was only from my close coworkers. Too many signatures would have felt performative. Seeing familiar names was comfort to me and they knew enough about my situation to write a kind blurb past “sorry for your loss”.

        1. WellRed*

          I was touched by the people who took the effort to send me a card. A collection of signatures passed around isn’t the same (though I wouldn’t have judged for it either). Performative is a good word.

        2. BethDH*

          Yes, at my work typically it is only signed by people close enough to write a personal message. Seems like the coworker handled it rudely, but given that they were okay with OP and the boss, who both worked closely with the person, to sign it, maybe it was more bad phrasing than anything else.

    6. Granger*

      This is really weird and I’m getting a strong Angela Martin and the Party Planning Committee (The Office) vibe! A compulsive need for extreme control over things that don’t matter at all (except the kind gesture to the bereaved obviously). Start a second card (or simply your own independent of the others – honestly, sympathy cards can truly provide a moment of “nice” in a tornado of chaos and feelings, so the more the better, imo) and move on, because this is the kind of person who keeps a list of bad people and her grievances against them and you can’t change any of that and anyone who hears a bad word from her about anyone – including you – will be met with an eyeroll because everyone will know what she’s like.

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        Wow, that is horrifying.

        — What even is a “soul”, and why is it good to “center” it? What is “the beyond”, and why should it be “connected to”?
        — I don’t think I want to have someone at my workplace who understands my passion and my longing, let alone someone *whose job it is* to do so. At my current job, there are maybe two people that I would even imagine talking to about emotional/””””spiritual”””” stuff, ever, out of more than fifty. And those are just the two people who happen to exceed a certain threshold on the “does Spencer get along with and/or trust you” scale. If management came in and told us “we’ve just hired Fergus, he’s here to understand everyone’s passion and longing,” that would be a different thing entirely!
        — “A ritual for when you get the email from LegalZoom that you’ve been officially registered as an LLC.” LMAO, they just reinvented the Shehecheyanu, this is hilarious!
        — I don’t need to infuse creating pivot tables (or whatever) with meaning — just putting some headphones on and listening to some music I like, which is what I already do, probably has a greater benefit for my mental state than inventing some arbitrary ritual.
        — The “grief rituals” they mention are for things like failed projects; it doesn’t seem like the article talks about how to actually deal with grieving colleagues (which is a rare situation where the personal and professional realms inevitably *do* overlap).

        More seriously, I get some “potential religious discrimination” vibes from this in a couple of ways. First of all, it sounds like these consultants come from primarily Christian backgrounds, so their approach is likely to be pretty Christian-centric (their spreadsheet of cross-cultural rituals notwithstanding). Combined with the fact that in most US workplaces, the majority of people are likely to be Christian or culturally Christian, isn’t that going to make it feel like Christianity is being practiced? At least a watered-down version of Christianity? That doesn’t sound like a comfortable environment for people from minority religious backgrounds.

        And even to the extent that that isn’t the case, we then have the added uncomfortableness of religion being valued over non-religion. That is, this seems like a new evolution of the old idea “atheists live such sad empty lives :( :( we need to show them that they need spirituality”. One person quoted in the article literally says that people have “deficits in themselves” which need to be fixed with spiritual practices. I know a way to give my life meaning — it’s called hobbies, it’s called family and friends, it’s called work-life balance, having a life outside of work. Key word: outside.

    8. LGC*

      The intent isn’t weird, but the phrasing is.

      That is, I don’t think it’s that weird she wanted to just keep it as a department thing. Her reaction is passive aggressive, but I can kind of see her being pressed that you didn’t read her mind (how DARE you). That said – although it’s not weird (in regular English), it IS weird (in AAM English, which means that she’s acting like a jerk but you’re giving her the benefit of the doubt).

      I’d honestly let it go, but also note that she was a bit wacky. Is this normal for her? Or is she going through stuff in her own life?

    9. AndersonDarling*

      My only theory is that the card was going to accompany flowers or another gift that was coming out of the department’s budget so they wanted to keep the card to just the people in the department. At least that is what I would interpret from the “contributing” comment.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Yes, I know places here I have worked it’s been fairly normal that for things like baby / wedding / leaving gifts the convention has always been that you put in money towards the gift and you sign the card, and you don’t normally sign if you haven’t given, but if it is just a card then that seems weird, and I think I would expect more leeway for a sympathy card anyway (after all, you are not likely to be sending anything with it other than flowers and you can always put a card on the flowers saying ‘from the x department’ )
        I’d put it down to slightly odd gatekeeping

    10. Annony*

      When someone asks who hasn’t signed, it is an invitation to sign the card. Next time, if she wants to keep the card private, she shouldn’t start passing it around. You were fine, she was weird.

    11. DarthVelma*

      If your co-worker wanted 100% control of who signed the card, she should have walked it around herself.

      Also, if your co-worker wanted 100% control of who signed the card…she’s a loon.

    12. Isthisreallife*

      Just some more background…

      So to clarify I had absolutely no way of knowing that this was *her* card. It was handed to me by another employee and it’s not unusual for us to pass cards around the entire company/office for any major life events (retirements, sympathy, wedding, new baby, whatever). We’re a large enough office to have departments, but small enough that everyone knows everyone (like 50 or so people).

      I’ve been at the company for about 4 years, and I think this employee has been there just under 2. The only explanation I can come up with for this bizarre reaction is that she and another employee frequently organize birthday events for their office friends (and for upper management, which is a whole other problem in my opinion), and she’s transferring frustration from that into this. I’ve heard her passive aggressively mention in the past that she gets annoyed by how much she puts out and how little others contribute. It all started out with a different employee occasionally bringing in like a balloon and a candy bar for someone’s birthday (which was very sweet). It then morphed into full on parties during the workday for half an hour (including piñatas), and this employee kind of jumped on to that and started organizing things. Here’s the thing though… most of the time she doesn’t tell people she’s doing it, and you don’t find out until the next day when someone’s desk is crazy decorated and there’s a cake. Then if anyone tries to participate who wasn’t on her invite list, she gets super pissed off.

      Like I get not wanting to fund these things yourself, but… then, ya know, don’t. Or at the very least let people know it’s happening so they can contribute if they want to participate instead of getting pissed off after the fact. The couple that I’ve been aware of in advance I’ve kicked in for, or if it’s not someone I’m close to I haven’t participated, it’s that easy.

      1. CatCat*

        Ah, the officious, self-appointed party planner. We’ve likely all encountered persons of this ilk in our time.

        Her text was weird because she is weird. It’s not worth further engagement on your part.

      2. WellRed*

        Time to kick it up the ladder and get this all kiboshed. It’s out of hand and it risks favoritism and exclusion. Not saying this is on you to do, however.

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        LOLWUT, this woman is absurd.

        Has she even tried to mention it to HR or whomever does employee engagement?

        I was pissed when I found out that someone had suggested something that falls into that category to a manager and the manager was like “nah fam, not happening.” without further discussion. Or in some instances, they’ll be all “sure it’ll happen!” and give them personal funds to do it with…what? No. This stuff can be budgeted for but more importantly PLANNED OUT and therefore there’s no favoritism.

        Unless you’re a nonprofit or public sector of course. Then again, you need a committee put together if possible, not some wayward lady who wants to crawl up on that big ol’ cross and hang there all “Woe is me, I did this all for you all and you don’t even caaaaaaaaaaaaaare to help.”

        I’d report her behavior and suggest a committee to not sound like you hate someone caring about the team members like that.

        Yikes.

        1. Amy*

          I really liked the way they planned this sort of stuff at a place I worked at two years ago. Every month they would take a small amount (like 3,5 dollars) out of your paycheck. This money would then be used to buy a basket (with chocolate and stuff or flowers) and a card when people had a round birthday, had a baby, was getting married or if there was a death in someones family. Yes, it might be less personal, but it also took all the potential drama out of it.

          1. Jackson Codfish*

            That’s $42 per person per year. The company couldn’t afford to cover that cost itself and had to raid employees’ paychecks to do so?

      6. Paulina*

        This needs to be shut down by management, or taken over officially and applied to everyone. Private parties have NO place in the workplace. And I say that as someone who does have close work friends that I socialize with outside of work — but that’s outside of work, not being cliquey inside work and having fancy party stuff going on while telling other coworkers that they’re not invited to something that’s being done right in front of them.

    14. saffie_girl*

      Some people are weird over these things, and it says much more about them than you, but you are not alone in experiencing this. I once had a coworker who lost her house to a fire. Money was being collected to help out, and if you donated money, you signed the card to go along with the gift cards. A department made a big deal that they wanted to put their own gift and card together to “make sure they new what was from our team” (actual quote). Because someone else’s tragedy is all about them? I would just let it go, but now you have some interesting information about your co-worker.

    15. Watermelon lip gloss*

      In my experience this is the norm in a office with different departments on the same floorP. It sounds like you were in another departments area and they were asking their team if anyone had not signed the card yet and you responded. Its sometimes petty but when your working there its more of not having one person or team pay for everything because they are more tune to those things (or more female). If I were you I would text back and ask if there is a contribution that you need to make going along with the card. Our manager used to cover the gift for our team to people when a sympathy card was given, so if another manager signed the card it looked like they also contributed but other managers never offered to give anything but still would ask to sign another groups card. It gets old.

      1. Isthisreallife*

        For the record, we’re both female :) it’s actually interesting to me because I’m literally the only female in my department, while her department is almost entirely female. I do think sometimes I’m hyper aware of trying not to take on traditionally female roles within my group because I’m the only female, although if I hadn’t expected an office sympathy card I probably would have grabbed one myself tbh.

        There wasn’t any kind of collection with the card (usually there is in my office), and I feel like it would have been really easy to say “oh hey we’re all chipping in for flowers” at the time, or put something like that in the text she sent. If there’s a gift or collection I’m happy to contribute. Also I genuinely thought HR had gotten the card as they have in the past. My job involves me being away from my desk A LOT so it’s not uncommon for me to sign office cards when I come across them because I sometimes miss them, and I’ve seen others do the same.

        I don’t necessarily want to text her back and ask if she’s taking up a contribution, because I really do think she’s being very weird and controlling, but I might ask one of the other people she mentioned in her text to see if they got flowers or anything, and then contribute if that’s the case. I don’t want to take credit for other people’s gift obviously! That’s a jerk move!

        1. Paulina*

          She sounds very cliquey, like she’s decided that things she organizes (including a sympathy card!) are for her in-group and nobody else. It’s a very inappropriate attitude to take in the workplace, and even more so when it involves someone else’s loss. Asking if there are flowers to contribute to seems appropriate, and otherwise I wouldn’t worry. She’s being weirdly controlling and doesn’t deserve to have her cliquishness validated.

    16. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have to wonder what “it was just for us” actually wrote in there… if it contained some personal reference they fear someone else might misunderstand, sympathy that revealed something about their own family medical history they didn’t want common knowledge, or something that management wouldn’t like.
      Or maybe the other group is one of those places where cards go to die undelivered.

      1. Isthisreallife*

        I didn’t actually read the other sentiments because I know it can sometimes be personal, but I doubt she put anything in that management would have an issue with since the person I got the card from was one of the company owners, so at that point the damage would have been done lol

    17. Sadly, not bizarre*

      I actually had something similar happen to me. A manager was leaving and we were signing a good-bye card for her. I reached out to a employee of hers who was now in a different group and asked if he wanted to sign as well. He had left the group perhaps a month earlier. He came up and signed the card and then suddenly I’m getting messages, “did you invite him, you shouldn’t have.” It turns out the two of them didn’t get along and that was why the employee had left the team. I said, “sorry” but left it at that. I figured everyone is an adult and needs to handle their own affairs.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Heaven forbid someone that you didn’t get along with signs a farewell card *blinks*. It’s seriously not that serious, I’m so confused buy this mentality.

        I glance at cards and then go “Awwww thanks!” and throw it in my keepsakes box. I love cards…we’re a “card family”, we don’t nitpick though, so this twist gets me all sorts of “LOL Okay, Marcia.”

    18. another point of view*

      OP – I’m going to disagree a bit with most of the other comments and say that it is perfectly reasonable for members of that employee’s dept to have wanted to send that person a card just from them because they work the most closely together. In the case of a sympathy card, I know that I would most appreciate a card from those in my department … Unlike birthday cards and other happy greetings, I wouldn’t want a card signed by everyone because having people I don’t know well sign it feels more like they did so out of obligation or inattention rather than because they are genuinely sympathetic.

      I understand they you do know and work closely with the card recipient, but it seems to me that the co-worker’s initial response — that you and your boss could sign the card (since you already had done), but that card was meant to to come from their department — was an appropriate, clear attempt to set boundaries. You pushed back by saying you wanted more people in your department to sign the card … certainly something that she might have viewed as intrusive and rude.

      1. Isthisreallife*

        Again, clarification… the person who’s mom died is in my department which is another reason I had no idea the card was department specific when I signed. The person who got the card is in a completely different department and chain of command.

        So basically I was saying more “hey, let me make sure the people from this person’s department sign this card” because that department leaves early and often gets overlooked. Also those employees have been working with this person for like 10+ years, and I didn’t want what I thought was an office card to go out without giving them the opportunity to sign it.

        I do get what you’re saying about her potentially taking it badly when I said my intention had been to take it to my boss and the team that works closely with the employee. My intention when I texted her was less to say “well I wanted these people to sign it” and more to say “oh, I hadn’t intended to like walk this card around the building, I was just gonna give it to her department” Again I must stress that I didn’t know that the card was not from HR at the time I said I was going to bring it to my boss.

        A part of me does wonder if she didn’t say anything in the moment because she knew it would come off really weird that she didn’t want people in the employees department signing the card.

        1. BethDH*

          Yeah, the additional details you’ve shared changed me to thinking the person’s reaction was weirder than I did from your initial description. Especially that it’s part of a larger social-effort-policing she’s doing.

    19. Okay*

      Did her office contribute towards an arrangement or gift card or something that you didn’t know about? If I’m heading up something, I always invite people to sign a card even if they don’t contribute (like a Christmas card & gift card for the cleaning crew) but I know some co-workers feel like only the people who donate towards the gift should be the ones to sign the card.

    20. Cassidy*

      I don’t understand people (your co-worker) who expect other people (you) to be mind readers.

      If she wanted boundaries with the card-signing, she should have stated them implicitly. Meanwhile, you were just trying to be considerate, and she should acknowledge that and make a mental note for next time (if there is one) to make her wishes known explicitly.

      Perhaps I won’t be so noble as I am right now when the time comes, but things like this make retirement look really, really good.

  2. Anon4Pregnancy*

    I want to put a trigger warning on this for pregnancy loss, so my post will be in a reply to myself for folks to hide.

    1. Anon4Pregnancy*

      I’ve had a medically complex pregnancy that I haven’t yet told anyone about at work.
      I’ve been using vague terms like Alison encourages for medical stuff you don’t want to go into.
      I also got COVID in the middle of all of this, and folks know about that. We’re 100% remote and I wasn’t really sick (just tired and couldn’t taste/smell anything for a week), so I worked through that. My work is mostly asynchronous so there hasn’t been any problem with me taking off for lots of doctors appointments.

      My well-meaning boss knows *something* is medically up with me, and COVID made it worse. But I haven’t explained it. Well, the pregnancy has come to a sad end, and I have a D&E scheduled for this Monday/Tuesday (requires 2 days of procedures, but no overnight hospital stay). I let her know that I needed surgery as soon as I found out (yesterday pm), then I let her know my time off needs as soon as I got the schedule (this morning).

      She is, to put it lightly, very worried about me and freaking out. I’ve stated my needs re: work clearly, but she has asked a few times (over slack), what’s going on. I really, really do not want to explain what is actually going on. This is emotionally super hard, and I don’t want to talk about it, even over chat.

      Anyone have a good “Please stop asking me what this surgery is for.” script. I appreciate that she cares, I do, and I understand why she is concerned “Hey, so my doctor said I need surgery, soon, as in Monday.” is alarming, even if it is followed with “It’ll be outpatient, and it’s a simple procedure with minimal recovery.”

      But I really need her to let it go. Help?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        “I prefer not to get into the details at work, but it’s nothing that you should worry about, just something I need to take care of. Thanks for understanding.”

        2. Dust Bunny*

          This.

          I did a stint of physical therapy involving body parts you don’t generally mention at work. My boss never, ever, asks what our medical time off is for, but since this was going to involve a couple of months of weekly half-days off, I told him it was physical therapy for an old muscular condition for which I had been unable to find a therapist until recently, all of which was true and none of which revealed more than necessary.

        3. WantonSeedStitch*

          Yes, this is pretty much what I would do. Anon, I’m so very sorry for your loss. I hope your physical recovery is easy, and that you get all the support and care you need in a difficult time.

        1. Anon4Pregnancy*

          Yeah, I mean, I’ve been dodging these questions for 5 months now and it’s been okay-ish to say “I need a lot of monitoring at these appointments, but I’ll be fine.”

          But her questions in the last 24 hours have been more persistent. Ex: “Are you sure you’re alright? If I knew more, I could be more helpful.” While I have, once, a few months ago, said over zoom “I really don’t want to talk about this” pretty firmly, it doesn’t appear I’ve said that recently (at least not over chat). I don’t want to be harsh exactly, but I do think I just need to be more firm.

          Every single time I get one of these questions, it’s upsetting. It has been for months. We’ve been hoping for the best, but honestly, this was sort of the expected outcome, which is part of why I’ve avoided talking about it this entire time.

          1. Annony*

            Since she is specifically talking about being more helpful you could try responding along those lines.

            “The most helpful thing you can do right now is approve the time off and not ask any more questions about my personal medical history. The questions are stressful and I really do not want to talk about my health with anyone I work with. There is nothing to worry about. Thank you for understanding my need for privacy right now.”

            2. Anon4Pregnancy*

              Thanks, this is both true and helpful. I might add “I spend enough time talking about my health with my doctors and family, and I need work to be a break from that.”

              1. Sparrow*

                I think this would be a good addition to the “the most helpful thing you can do for me…” language. I’m so sorry for your loss and that your boss is making life harder right now.

            3. Dust Bunny*

              All of this.

              You’re under a doctor’s care. You are handling it. It’s (as) fine (as it’s going to be).

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            “Are you sure you’re alright? If I knew more, I could be more helpful.”

            “Actually, the most helpful thing you can do is to just support my need to take this time off, as you’ve been doing. I appreciate it!”

          3. Books and cats*

            When boss pushes with “I could be more helpful if I know…” try replying, “Thank you for your concern. I have everything covered on the homefront with family and friends. What I need most from you is to cover the work front. Knowing you have that handled will be the biggest help you could give me.”
            You don’t need to tell her, or anyone, anything you want to keep private.
            My heart is breaking for you. Take care of yourself in whatever way feels right to you. You will be in my thoughts Monday and Tuesday.

      3. Schnoodle HR*

        I’m sorry…It doens’t sound liek it’s an option but I think the best way to have her lay off is to give her enough to undersatnd you don’t want to talk about it.

        “Boss, I’m struggling with fertility and pregnancy loss. I appreciate the flexibility you’ve been able to give me during such a hard time in my life. As you can imagine I have a hard time talking about this and rather not do so at all. I appreciate your concern but now that you know the general issue, would you mind not asking further unless it pertains to work scheduling?”

        1. MCL*

          I disagree. This is way more detail than the boss is entitled to. Just using Alison’s script above should be just fine.

          1. Schnoodle HR*

            I agree but it sounds like she’s been using a similar script with no end in sight of her boss’ prying and it sounds like the boss genuinely is worried, not looking for gossip.

            But again it’s an emotional topic so as I mentioned in my reply it may still not be an option.

            My fear is that others will start to speculate anyway. With such a hard topic, I rather be in control of it than not.

              1. Falling Star*

                This, This, This. People questioning you about your personal business, does not mean they are entitled to an answer. Some people think they are, but since I don’t agree, they will not get it from me.

              2. Paulina*

                Especially since they will get information that will enable them to be even more intrusive, and make their own decisions about how things should be handled, which would be extremely out of line. Boss can help best by approving the absences and stopping asking questions for more information — someone dealing with personal medical issues needs to be able to focus on themselves, not have to deal with other people’s reactions to their situation. Even (and sometimes especially) if those reactions are attempts to be helpful.

            2. MCL*

              I would totally stonewall and repeat Alison’s script ad nauseum if there was a continuation of Boss asking, with an additional, “I’m not up for discussing the details, but I’ll let you know if I need anything beyond some sick days.” If that didn’t stop it, then I would try going to HR to see what they advise. OP’s medical situation is none of Boss’s business, full stop. There is no reason Boss needs to know specifics about this beyond “medical issue that is getting taken care of.” I get that Boss is concerned, but concern does not mean she gets access to this level of detail. Especially since OP is not comfortable talking about it and doesn’t want to discuss.

              If it becomes a matter of office gossip and speculation, she should go to Boss to ask for help shutting it down, or to HR if Boss is unhelpful or instigating rumors herself. It IS a hard topic, and OP has a perfect right to keep it 100% private.

            3. Gerry*

              Boss I appreciate that you want to support me and supporting me right now means not making me talk about my current medical issue. I’ve provided the paperwork so you questioning me makes me feel you think I am a liar. I’m sure you don’t want me to feel like this but these constant questions do. How can we move on?

        2. Wintergreen*

          I kind of agree with Schnoodle. I know you don’t want to talk about it, and you shouldn’t have to but… it may be a good idea to mention because after the medical issues are taken care of there will most likely be some emotional stuff you are going to have to go thru. Grief manifests in weird ways and a general heads up to the boss may be better in the long run. Just a quick “I appreciate your concern and I don’t really want to talk about it but I’ve had a failed pregnancy. When we speak, I’d like to keep on work topics if at all possible. It helps me cope. Thanks”

        3. Mr. Tyzik*

          No, this is not necessary. She doesn’t owe her boss her story in her explanation and what she has said would be enough for a boss is isn’t interested in prying for more.

          What this boss is doing is borderline disgusting. Boss is looking for more information out of concern but to assuage herself, not Anon.

          Alison’s script is perfect for shutting this down.

          1. Falling Star*

            Agree. Once had someone ask me a truly intrusive personal question. We were not on those terms. Was asked again. Said I already answered that question. He replied, ” I didn’t hear you say anything.” Me: “There you go” Him: “Oh”

        4. Artemesia*

          But this forces her to violate her own sense of privacy. The snoopy boss needs to back off. This is such a hard thing to bear and she should be able to do it privately with those she loves and not be the object of office gossip – even well meaning gossip.

          I like Alison’s script.

        5. Anon4Pregnancy*

          This is exactly what I do not want to say.

          I don’t want anyone I work with to know that I’ve been pregnant. And a quick google would easily reveal to people that if I’m having a two day D&E, I’ve been pregnant *a while.* Like long enough that it’s weird I didn’t tell anyone. I feel like that was the right call, and I want to continue to keep it quiet.

          1. Anon4Pregnancy*

            I’m also really grateful to be WFH and have people only see my face, b/c I’m obviously pregnant at this point.
            My last pregnancy, people commented as soon as I was showing and I hated it (though I was working elsewhere). WFH was a huge gift through all of this–it allowed me to keep things far more private.

            1. Schnoodle HR*

              Yeah I didn’t think this was an option you’d like. I’m sorry for what you’re having to go through. It sounds like your boss is genuinely concerned and may not back off without more knowledge. I think you’ve been using script similar to what A provided but it hasn’t worked.

              I agree you shouldn’t have to share to get someone off your back. I do think just telling her general though will actually put her on notice that this is something serious and you DON”T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT. You know? But if you don’t trust her to start the gossip then it’s a no go.

              But it’s also very personal and an emotional journey you have to take and if you want to keep firm keep firm. Just know you may be to repeat yourself a million times.

            2. ToS*

              One phrase that can be helpful is “need to know”. You can assure the boss that you will help keep work matters strong, even if scheduling or shifting must occur.

              You can also mention that while people may “want” to know more, that you are confident with your health care plan and wish to avoid constantly rehashing details to the merely curious and instead focus on self care with licensed health care professionals. It would smooth feathers to say you’re glad for her concern, and hope she will take you at your word with your return-to-work plan

              You may want to ask her what -work- she is worried about, to refocus?

              So sorry that you are going through this with a side order of bad-boundary-boss. I hope she gets a solid clue and no longer distracts from making it through the coming week!

          2. Falling Star*

            I do not believe not telling people you were pregnant with a high risk pregnancy is “weird”, it’s your private business. You had and have enough to deal with without having to deal with performing “being pregnant” to others expectations. I am so sorry for your loss. I do understand first hand, and if I had to deal with other peoples concern after while I was dealing with all the emotional and physical concerns myself at work, it would have been awful. Take care.

      5. Lizy*

        I’m so sorry for your loss. I agree with Allison’s response.

        Also, please take time off if you want/need to, and you shouldn’t feel guilty for doing so. You are allowed to grieve the loss of your little one and the pregnancy.

        1. Anon4Pregnancy*

          I think I’ll actually do better working than not. It helps to be distracted. Everything I’ve read says that pain is minimal after 24-48 hours, so I’m planning to be back at work on Thursday.

          1. Lizy*

            I almost said something about “but keep working if you want to”. I’m the same way – I went back to work after a very short maternity leave (3 weeks) as it was triggering and somewhat traumatic for me (long story). So many people – including my boss – were like “well why aren’t you taking a longer leave”? Uh… cause this is what’s best for me and my mental health? Also – none of your business.

            But regardless – I’m sorry for your loss. I wish you peace and a rainbow baby – when and if that is something you decide is best for you and your family.

          2. Sarah*

            I’m sorry for your loss – I was in the same boat as you back in March. My procedure was on a Monday and I was back at work on Wednesday (remotely, as COVID was just ramping up). I actually did tell my boss exactly what was going on, as I had also told her that I was pregnant. I REGRET that choice, as she was fairly insensitive in her response (it’s incredibly hard to find the right thing to say when someone has had a pregnancy loss, so I don’t blame her) and since then has asked fairly invasive questions about when we’d be trying again, etc. etc. Not to say that your boss would do the same, but I should have used Allison’s script and avoided the topic altogether. For what it’s worth, the procedure itself is pretty easy and helped me heal emotionally. I did have some significant cramping for a week or so afterwards. Wishing you peace and strength in the weeks ahead.

            1. Anon4Pregnancy*

              Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. That is basically my worst nightmare. I don’t *think* my boss would do that, but I don’t know. She’s fairly new to managing people and relatively young (same age as me). She did ask me a few “how do you parent and work” sorts of questions when I started (I had one kid), and she’s clearly thinking of having kids herself in the not too distant future. So I could see well-meaning yet invasive questions. And I just don’t want to.

              I’ve already dealt with insensitivity from medical professionals, and I just can’t handle any more.

              1. Sarah*

                Yes, the problem, as you know, is that people don’t THINK they’re being insensitive, but that seemingly harmless comments can be incredibly hurtful to people going through it. My manager was also a fairly new at managing people and has no firsthand experience with pregnancy loss, so she was prone to those insensitive comments. She never had ill intentions, but the topic is hard to navigate in general and even moreso in the workplace. So it’s best just to avoid it, which it looks like what you’re attempting to do! I’m sorry you’ve had a negative experience with your medical professionals; that is the absolute worst. Best of luck with your procedure on Monday.

                1. Anon4Pregnancy*

                  Receptionist who told me to cry more quietly to not disturb her phone call totally knew she was being insensitive.
                  Like, you might not know what is going on with someone, but if you work *in a hospital* and someone is sobbing *in a hospital lobby* you suck at your job for telling someone to stop crying. Maybe your hospital sucks for making you take phone calls without some sort of sound barrier, but that’s not an excuse. FFS, miscarrying is FAR from the worst thing I could have been experiencing for all she knew.

          3. HR Bee*

            I was in a similar boat a few years ago. I have the procedure on Monday and was back to work on Wednesday. I’d have gone insane at home all alone. Work let me focus on something else.

            That said, my OB pushed hard for me to take more time. Like he literally wanted me out at least two weeks to ‘heal and process and grieve.’

            You do you. And I’m so sorry. Virtual hugs.

      6. Overeducated*

        I’m so sorry. This is so hard. Maybe you could say something like “I really appreciate your concern and flexibility with my schedule. I really don’t want to talk about my medical conditions at all, so your giving me the privacy and understanding to deal with them outside of work is the best support I could ask for. Thanks so much.” The hope would be that wrapping a firm statement within a preemptive “thank you” helps your boss want to live up to the thanks.

        1. Data Nerd*

          Either Alison’s script or this one should be good–maybe start with Alison’s and then move to this one if she still won’t let it go? And I’m so, so sorry, Anon. I hope you have peace and good health going forward.

      7. M*

        I don’t have any advice, except for the script that Alison provided. But I wanted to comment to say that I’m sorry for your loss, and that I’m sending you virtual hugs and comforting vibes.

      8. hiphopopotamus*

        I had similar issues with my boss when I dealt with two serious medical issues over my first few years working for her. The first time around, I had assumed that she would keep my medical information to herself, but she ended up sharing it widely in the office. The second time around, I provided as little information as possible. It was difficult because we have a good working relationship and I know she was asking because she cares, but I didn’t want to have to discuss my medical situation with everyone in the office. I ended up asking HR to what degree I needed to share information with my boss and told them that when I had done so previously she shared it with others. I looped HR in again when she asked for copies of FMLA-related documentation from my doctors. They ended up stepping in to remind her why medical information needs to stay with HR rather than others in the organization.

      9. Anon4Pregnancy*

        So I sent a message over Slack
        “I prefer not to get into the details at work, but it’s nothing that you should worry about, just something I need to take care of. I spend enough time talking about all this stuff with my family and doctors, and the most helpful thing you can do is to let me focus on work. Questions stress me out right now, so I want to not talk about my health more than I have to. I really do expect to be fine after surgery. I appreciate the flexibility you’ve been giving me, and thanks for understanding.”

        I got back “Okay.” Not sure what to make of that, but at least I sent the message.

        Thanks, everyone, for your help! This has all been so stressful, and I just want to put it behind me.

        2. Sarah*

          I would also loop HR in and/or document these reactions and even this most recent interaction, if you feel comfortable. Based on the way your manager is handling this, I would hate to think that it could have implications or ramifications on your work, but it’s possible. I would either report this to HR as an FYI (“My manager keeps questioning my medical status”) and/or document it just in case it comes back up later (i.e. she starts treating you differently after this for whatever she THINKS your medical situation may be).

      10. RagingADHD*

        Just tell her it’s not cancer. That’s what she’s freaked about. She thinks you’ve been having chemo or radiation, and now cancer surgery.

        1. Anon4Pregnancy*

          I specified that it wasn’t cancer months ago. I’ve described it as complex, requiring monitoring, but not life-threatening.

      12. allathian*

        I’m so sorry for your loss. I wish you strength in dealing with the aftermath and your intrusive boss. I think Alison’s script sounds really good.

      13. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

        Nothing to add to the answers you’ve already received, but just wanted to say I’m so, so sorry. I had a D&E years ago and the hardest part (aside from the emotional effects) was the laminaria insertion, if they’re doing that (though the dilation with misoprostol is similar). I’d recommend making sure you can lie down as soon as possible afterwards, and if they’re giving you antibiotics in pill form to take Monday night, ask if there’s an option to put it in the IV if you’ll be under full or partial sedation in case it makes you sick.

        Good luck on Monday and Tuesday. Many thoughts your way.

        1. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

          (I say all of this because the OB who did my D&E, though I appreciated his matter of fact approach and the thorough job he did related to testing the POC because of concerns he had, didn’t provide a whole lot of information about what the preparation for the procedure would be like and I would have appreciated a heads up about things I didn’t know to expect).

          1. Anon4Pregnancy*

            Thanks for sharing this. I called the doula I used for my first birth, who used to be an OB nurse, and she told me a lot of what you said, too.
            I’ve also been told to ask for ALLLL the Zofran. Get Zofran in IV. Take Zofran pills (I have some, because I’ve been puking all pregnancy. At least that part will be over soon.)

      14. Janet*

        If someone is that immaturely over-curious to know your personal medical information, I’d also wonder about their ability to keep it to themselves if you told them the details.

      15. Anon4Pregnancy*

        In the “not everybody is nosy” category, I told the coworker most effected that I’d be out for surgery, and she just said, “Oh, I hope everything goes well! I’m happy to cover whatever comes up while you’re out, and you’ll be in my thoughts.” A+ coworker!

  3. peachie*

    How do you “put in a good word” for someone? Or is that even appropriate to do?

    I have a friend who’s looking for a job and I told them I’d check at my former office to see if they’re hiring (medium-sized nonprofit; they usually are). I’m checking with a former coworker who still works there to see if they’re hiring to begin with, but if they are, is it appropriate for me to… ?? message someone at the office to let them know they’re applying? (I’d probably know the hiring manager, if it makes a difference.)

    I want to help my friend out and I’d be happy to vouch for them, but I don’t want to do anything inappropriate. (I hope that makes sense; it’s been a long week and words are hard today!)

    1. Alex*

      It’s harder to do this when you aren’t having casual in-person interaction but you can still do it. If you know the hiring manager, I’d go with them (so you’re not bothering tons of different people) and find out if they’re hiring because you know a great candidate with x,y,z relevant skills that you believe could be an asset to the org. I’d make sure to create softening/social language around introducing it as well.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Have you worked with your friend before? If so, your “vouch[ing] for them” will carry a lot more weight. That said, even if your relationship with your friend has never been in a professional capacity, you can simply do something like this:
      “Hey, is that ________ position still open?”
      “Yeah, we just posted it last week.”
      “I know someone who might be good for it.”

      Then see how the person in charge of the position reacts. If it’s fairly tepid (e.g., “Thanks” or “Have them apply, then”), just leave it. But if they seem intrigued (e.g., “Who is it?” or “What’s that person’s name, so I can keep an eye out?”), then follow up with details about your friend.

    3. Brooks Brothers Stan*

      Basically by doing exactly what you’re doing. You reach out to someone in the office that you have a good relationship with to see if they are hiring. If they are, ask them for the best way for your friend to apply, and offer yourself up as a reference. Your friend will know the situation with the hiring manager and the best way to communicate that this is a referral coming from a colleague.

      And that’s it! If your friend thinks speaking to the hiring manager is the best way forward, they’ll bridge that gap for you. But more than likely just the fact that you reached out to someone in the office will get their resume plucked from the stack.

    4. Artemesia*

      Just call the person you know there who might have some hiring authority with a sort of ‘I don’t know if you are hiring, but a former co-workers is looking right now and has the right skills for this kind of work and I thought I would touch base. She is really terrific.’ Of course, do this only if you have worked with her and know she is terrific.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Reach out to your contact, ask if they’re hiring. If they say they are, let them know you know someone you think may be a good option, ask them how your friend should apply. If you know the hiring manager, give them her name directly so they know who to look out for.

      That’s it. Don’t do any follow ups and don’t try to push it is key. Just say “I know you’re regularly hiring, I know a person who is looking for work.”

      Don’t vouch for their work unless you’ve worked with them!!!

      1. Cats and dogs*

        Definitely agree with The Man, Becky Lynch. Don’t vouch for anyone’s work if you haven’t worked with them.

    6. Working Hypothesis*

      At least in my industry (which is also usually hiring), it’s totally right and normal and encouraged to go up to a hiring manager whom you know through your own work and say, “Hey, I just wanted to give you a heads up — my friend X is probably going to be applying to work here. I’ve worked with X and they’re really good… if there’s anything useful I can tell you about them, please just let me know; I’d be glad to.”

      This is enough to count, all by itself, as an internal reference — you’ve flagged the candidate as someone whose work you’re prepared to couch for — while also letting the hiring manager know that you stand ready to give them the further details that would be included in a real reference check if the candidate gets that far. I’ve also sometimes added within the introduction above, a brief statement of what they’re best at, especially if they have a skill that I know the company particularly needs. So, for example, “They’re certified in hoof care, and I know we need someone who can do hooves,” or “They’re really good at llama-shearing, and have a gift for getting the llama to stand still without muzzles,” or something like that — just a quick sentence connecting what I know of the candidate’s work with what I know of the company’s pain points, if there’s a clear connection. I won’t say it if there isn’t a natural setting overlap between what the candidate does well and what the company wants done (though if they’re good at their work and they belong in this field at all, there often is).

  4. envirolady*

    Okay friends, this is a weird one.

    My spouse messed up at work. Not big time, and not on a project that is even in his job description. His boss basically gave him no direction and he tried to do his best. His manager was out of town and couldn’t be reached for any questions. When they got back and saw the small mistake, they made him stay home all day to “reflect” instead of working. He is an hourly employee, so this was a big blow. Is this how you would handle a small mistake? He immediately apologized for it and totally owned it when he was called out. We are both confused and it just gave me icky, sort of parental “time out” vibes. He offered to do anything to make up for it with several solutions but instead they forced him to take a day off of work in tough times. Any insight would be appreciated. If we’re overreacting that this was weird, please say so lol.

    1. Schnoodle HR*

      Based on what you wrote, the employer is definitely weird and seems to manage with immaturity.

      Mistakes happen at work all the time, in fact mistakes and how to fix them is really how someone becomes good and experienced in their field! Not being understanding that this happens and making the best of it is short sighted of the employer.

      I’m sorry you guys had to take an unpaid day. It’s really unfair to hit your wallet like that as well.

      I only do unpaid leave of absences when it is something huge or continuously happens or an investigation needs to happen (think sexual harassment).

      I can validate your feelings on this situation if that makes it any better.

      1. Elliott*

        Yeah, I see suspension/unpaid leave as acceptable mainly in situations where something serious enough has happened that an investigation or some sort of action needs to be taken before the person can return to their position. Things like major policy/ethics violations, harassment, etc. It shouldn’t be a routine thing to discipline people for the sake of it.

      2. envirolady*

        Thank you for your insight.

        I’ve been working full time since I graduated college for 5 years, in hourly and salaried positions, and I’ve NEVER had a manager do this when I made a small mistake that I owned up to and offered to fix. It just felt wrong to me that they would dock his pay, basically, even when he offered to do extra work or whatever to fix it.

        Totally agreed on the sexual harassment/bigger issue. This was a solo project that was totally outside of his normal work duties that they only assigned him, with little context, because they were going out of town, and resulted in a small issue that is of no loss monetary or otherwise to the company. It was almost a personal project – think taking care of someone’s house when they are gone. He probably should’ve asked for more info before they left, which he told them, but now they basically refuse to give him a way to “correct course” I guess.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          It’s definitely a good idea to ask for more guidance when you’re left with a project that isn’t in your normal area of work and you don’t know how to do. But this way of approaching the error seems juvenile she absurd. If I were the manager, I would call them in and say, “I see there were some problems with the llama photography project. What happened?”

          If I got an answer like “I’m sorry. I knew how to handle llamas, of course, but I’ve never done photography before. I didn’t realize there was so much involved in handling the camera, and I messed up the settings,” then I know what to tell them to change. Then it becomes about what I said above: don’t take on a project you don’t normally do without flagging for the manager that you don’t know how to X. You can make it clear that you’re game to try if they want you to, but if you’re explicit that you’ve never done X before and don’t know how well it’s going to go, you give them a chance to decide whether they want to give you more guidance, take the whole thing off your plate, or tell you to go on without any more instruction. But as a manager, I wouldn’t demand time sitting at home to “reflect” — I would just tell the employee, “Next time, if I assign you something you’ve got no experience with, make sure to tell me so up front, okay? I might or might not change anything about the assignment, but it helps to know.” And that would be the end of it, assuming the employee said, yes, they’ll do that next time.

          (Side note: from the employee’s perspective, if I tell them I don’t know how to do something and they tell me to do it anyway, I would get it in writing. It doesn’t have to be formal or dramatic; just send them a quick email saying something like, “Thanks for the clarification this morning about the llama photography project. I’m fine with going ahead on what little I know about photography; I just wanted to make sure you realized that I’ve never used a DSLR camera before or even knew what one was! Glad we got that sorted.” It does a bit of CYA in the event of future issues that are caused by that inexperience.)

    2. SarahKay*

      You are definitely not overreacting, and your spouse’s boss is Horrible. I mean, that’s truly awful behaviour, even before you factor in the loss of income. I don’t have any good advice, sadly, but this is definitely not a reasonable boss.

      1. envirolady*

        Relatively new? He has been working there since May. I’m really not sure – it seemed like his manager took it more as a personal slight than as a genuine mistake (which it was). They said stuff like “reflect on the gratitude that comes with working hard…” For context, my spouse does physical work every day, so this was such a bizarre comment today. He hasn’t heard of anyone else being treated this way.

        1. Natalie*

          reflect on the gratitude that comes with working hard

          I know all of those words, but that sentence makes no sense! /simpsons

          1. envirolady*

            Honestly it was word soup. It was very touchy-feely language that felt sort of unprofessional that focused on gratitude, being thankful for being employed, et cetera.

            1. Natalie*

              If I was your spouse I would job search. Maybe it’s the radical in me, but only shitty employers think their employees should be “grateful for a job”. Companies aren’t charitable enterprises, they are business arrangements wherein the company purchases something it needs to operate (labor) from the employees. Typically the company cannot profit without the labor their employees so magnanimously sell them.

              1. Partly Cloudy*

                Yes, all of this. And suspending him without pay for a minor mistake is the opposite of the right way to handle a minor mistake. It’s bizarre and sounds very “go sit in the corner and think about what you’ve done”-type childish.

              2. Hamburke*

                I don’t think I’ve ever been called radical except in jest and I agree with everything in this statement. Time for a job search…

              3. Working Hypothesis*

                Ugh. I agree with this completely. Any job that your boss demands you should be “grateful” for isn’t a job you want to have. Time to look for a better one. Nobody should have to be *grateful* for a chance to engage in a mutually beneficial deal.

          2. Bagpuss*

            Yes – why should you be grateful for working hard? Shouldn’t it be the employer who is grateful in those circumstances, if anyone is?
            And if you are doing a decent job it’s kind of icky to suggest you should be grateful (or at least to imply you should be grateful to your employer) that you *have* a job.

            Effectively suspending someone without pay would only seem reasonable to me if there is a really big issue – for instance where you need to be able to investigate and don’t want them there where they might destroy evidence of their misconduct or cause further issues, or where there is a credible allegation of harassment and you need to protect the victim, or that kind of thing.

            Plus – how is it helpful. Your husband already knows he made a mistake, so the sensible thing for them to do would be to consider whether he needs additional training to avoid it happening again, and mov e on.

            1. Working Hypothesis*

              But additional training would mean *they* had to do work, instead of just dumping it off on him!

            2. Easily Amused*

              Seems to me that this punishment serves nothing more than instilling fear that they can send him home without pay at any time, even permanently. Such a gross power play. He should definitely be job searching if it’s possible.

            1. Observer*

              Well, based on the additional information the OP provided, I’m not sure they should managing children either.

        3. Colette*

          That’s pretty strange. I’d keep an eye out for other weirdness, but since he hasn’t been there long, it’s hard to tell whether this is a one-off or not.

          1. envirolady*

            It is a small business, so I think that adds to the general weirdness. Sometimes small business owners want to create a work culture that is unique but don’t really think it through… in this case, I think they were trying (???) to be very touchy-feely, but they literally forced someone who works hourly to miss a day of work, so the intended result was just confusion and a frustration. My spouse is definitely open to other jobs now, so he might be looking around.

            1. Artemesia*

              It sounds like the kind of nonsense someone in a religious cult might inflict. Definitely look for another job — but don’t feel forced to take anything unless it is a good fit i.e. as long as he has the job, look but only leap when something excellent appears not out of desperation.

              1. Artemesia*

                Oh and if he does find a new job and is asked why he is leaving he should say something like ‘I need to be able to count on the job and when I was docked a day’s pay for a small mistake, it was clear I can’t count on management here.’

                2. Cormorannt*

                  Personally, I think that comes across as very bitter and would be off-putting to an interviewer who has no context. I would frame it as “For business reasons, they were unable to guarantee me the same hours from week to week. I’m looking for something more stable”. He doesn’t have to say that the “business reasons” are because they are loons.

                3. TechWorker*

                  Cormorrannt – I totally agree this would be a bizarre thing to say in an interview, but I think the suggestion was actually to say it to the *current* employer in exit interview.

              2. Malarkey01*

                The OP additional comment about gratitude coming from hard work I’ve heard one other time and it was a super conservative religious cult. Between that and the stay at home and think about this move I’d be super super worried about their norms around employment and expectations.

              4. Chaordic One*

                Or he could say that maybe his supervisor needs to “reflect” on how he treats his workers.

                It probably won’t do any good, but it would be an apt thing to say.

            2. PollyQ*

              Oh, they were definitely being punitive, they just wanted to wrap it in language that would let them do it while still feeling good about themselves. Second the advice to look for a different job.

              1. envirolady*

                That’s sort of how I felt too, PollyQ. That they wanted to feel good about themselves even as they were taking a pretty messed up course of action.

        4. I'm that person*

          I think that your husband should reflect on updating his resume and getting a new job.

          You said upthread that you have been out of collage and working for 5 years and never seen anything like that. I have been working for 35 years and never seen anything like that.

          This is a dysfunctional work environment. This is first red flag. It’s only going to get worse from here.

          1. envirolady*

            Thank you. I’m a relatively new professional in an entirely different field from him, but I still didn’t feel like this was normal behavior at all.

            It’s definitely time to brush up his resume!

          2. CatMintCat*

            i’ve beenworking since the mid 1970s and have never seen anything like this. Get that resume out and honed, it can only get worse.

        5. Sparrow*

          Wow, that’s absolutely a work form of time out and is super infantilizing and also just counterproductive. They set him up to fail and instead of letting him work on a solution, they sent him home so that next time this comes up he still won’t be fully versed in how they want it done…? I can’t imagine this company will get better the longer he’s there – I would definitely start looking for other opportunities.

          1. envirolady*

            I really didn’t understand it either because he was basically the only person keeping a few of their projects going smoothly. The work has to be done in-person (it’s a physical job) so they basically messed up their projects by forcing him to take a day off, unpaid. So weird.

    6. Elliott*

      Wow, no, that sounds ridiculous and patronizing to me. Small mistakes happen occasionally because people are human. Punishing someone for a minor error that they acknowledged accomplishes nothing.

    7. SheLooksFamiliar*

      I see parental ‘time out’ vibes, too. It’s appropriate to have a coaching discussion with the employee to correct the mistake, and ask them to think about a plan to ensure it doesn’t happen again, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what happened here.

      Has your husband’s boss talked to him about the mistake, and the offer to correct it?

      1. envirolady*

        No! He offered to get on a call whenever his boss was available but she just said “we’ll talk about it.” They never did! Instead of talking about it she forced him to take the next day “off” (AKA with no pay). It was so bizarre! When he went back the next day and tried to bring it up to her, she didn’t want to talk about it. He really just wanted to apologize, keep working, and try to fix it in whatever way he could. He also wanted to get more clarification on the process so he wouldn’t make the same mistake, but she (manager) didn’t offer any other guidance.

        1. SheLooksFamiliar*

          Sounds like your husband’s manager is a manager in name only. Says they’ll talk about it but dclines to do it, won’t give clarification or work-arounds if she’s gone…at least he knows what to expect.

          I can’t help but hope your husband already began a job search. He owned his mistake and tried to do the right thing, and lots of companies would love to have that kind of employee on their team.

          1. SheLooksFamiliar*

            Forgot to mention a concern. Your husband’s boss might plan to ‘talk about it’ at his annual review, when it’s too late for him to handle the situation to her satisfaction. Bad managers are known to do that.

            He might want to document what he did to correct the mistake on his own, his new process for doublechecking work, etc., and send it to her anyway. It might not force a discussion but at least he has documentation of his actions, just in case.

            1. envirolady*

              Great idea, thank you! He is relatively new to the workforce (he was in the military for a long time before this) and he isn’t used to performance reviews/documenting stuff like this. I’ll bring it up to him!

              1. Working Hypothesis*

                Also document the occasions on which you sought guidance for how to do better at the thing you did wrong. You want to be able to show, if they throw that kind of thing at you again, that you explicitly told the boss that you don’t know how to do X, and if they insist on assigning it anyway you want to document that they did this despite repeatedly rejecting your attempts to get more information on how to do X.

        2. kt*

          My concern (esp given what you said above) is that it’s something that is actually illegal or inappropriate for an employee to be doing, and that’s why she doesn’t want to talk about it.

          1. envirolady*

            Nope, it really couldn’t be. It was basically like… he forgot to turn an air conditioner off, or something of that caliber! It didn’t involve any other employees or people, just objects, and no health and safety issues.

    8. Ew no.*

      Totally bizarre. Enough to trigger a job search for me. If you can, and you want to… that’s where my advice lands.

    9. irene adler*

      What is the company policy on disciplinary matters? Some places do issue a day off -without pay- for some infractions. But that policy should be known to your spouse (and all employees). The day off without pay should not be a surprise. Otherwise this looks like retribution.

      Is there an employee manual for reference? That should contain a discipline section where the policy on punishments are outlined. And name who is the authority for handing out disciplinary actions. And it should outline the procedure for discipline-first time offences, repeat offences, etc. It may also describe what things are punishable offences. Does this policy include when mistakes are made? Employees are human and make mistakes. Punishment won’t fix the human condition.

      1. envirolady*

        I wish there were. He works for a small business and I think they really need something like this. Totally agreed on all your points – mistakes are a part of life and how we manage them is very important for growth.

        1. irene adler*

          Gosh, if there’s no set policies re: discipline, then they can make it up as they go. And that’s not good for employees.

    10. Liane*

      I think it is pretty odd & unkind. How bad is it?

      WALMART (a company that has had many large-scale instances of mistreating employees) stopped doing that years ago. Heck, even when Walmart had that in their discipline procedures it was NOT a first step; it was the next-to-last step before firing, after multiple (I think 6 or 8) verbal and written warnings. And Walmart still PAID you. You were taken off your next shift, but paid for however many hours you had been scheduled that shift.

      1. envirolady*

        If he were paid for the forced absence that would be totally different. Still weird, but at least it wouldn’t be so punative.

        He works for a small business and I really think they don’t have a good process for this stuff, which is part of the problem. It just felt so strange to double down and penalize someone who was actively working to rectify their misstep (a misstep that literally only impacted the owner and not the company in any meaningful way).

    11. Lady Heather*

      “Stay home and reflect” definitely sounds like “working from home getting paid” to me..

      Your spouse may value his employment more than being snarky.

        1. Lady Heather*

          I think saying “Pay me for the time I spent, per your orders, working from home by thinking about how this mistake can be avoided in the future” may be considered snarky and may result in a “Here’s money for that day, and don’t bother coming back”.

          I don’t think the spouse has been snarky.

          1. envirolady*

            Yeah, he just wanted to go into work and do his job and take actions to make up for the mistake. He really didn’t want to sit at home all day and reflect (aka feel like garbage with no ability to rectify the mistake). It just wasn’t helpful for anybody.

            1. Observer*

              You know, he really should not feel like garbage. The people who really messed up are his employers.

          2. Liane*

            Hmm, since Boss/Company specifically gave Spouse direction for that unpaid day (“Stay home this shift & reflect”) I think with Lady Heather that it counts as a work day, which means it should be paid. therefore:
            Step 1: find a new job
            Step 2: after leaving, report it to the state Wage & Hour agency and let them determine if “Pay me for the time I spent, per your orders, working from home by thinking about how this mistake can be avoided in the future” is Snark or a Legit Claim for Unpaid Wages.

      1. envirolady*

        Yeah, that’s how it felt! He just kind of did small jobs around the house all day, but he felt really down. They didn’t really give him any way to fix the mistake, even though he offered several solutions. It just didn’t feel productive. Plus he is one of their most valued team members (he gets a lot done in a day) so they also shot themselves in the foot.

        1. Chris too*

          When he gives notice that he’s leaving for another job, I hope he cheerfully says yes, I appreciated the opportunity to reflect and realize I don’t want to work here any more…

    13. Annony*

      That’s not normal. I have made big mistakes and the response was “We forgot to tell you not to do that. In the future, it is bad to do X because this happens.” This does not sound like a functional workplace. A suspension pending investigation sometimes is called for if the mistake is big enough. Staying home to “reflect” is not.

      1. envirolady*

        Thank you. I appreciate your experience and insight! I totally agree on big mistakes, and I would’ve wanted him to do the same if it was some investigation. But it was literally like… a mistake as big as misplacing something and then finding it again. Or something of that nature. And it didn’t delay work or throw a wrench in anyone’s plans (he asked to make sure and they said it literally didn’t impact anything). He asked them about what to do next time and for more instruction so he could do a better job and they acted like it was all his fault for not guessing/knowing the correct solution (even after working there for a few months).

        1. Annony*

          Their response is not good. When ESP becomes a job requirement you know something is off. By big mistake, I mean I broke something expensive and important.

        2. Sue*

          Is his manager the owner? If I were him, I would start looking for another job not just because of how ridiculous this was but also because of what it says about how they value him as an employee. It is probably not personal to him, they seem very punitive and unpredictable. But if they feel this is an appropriate way to treat employees, he can do better and find an employer who values their employees and treats them well.

    14. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I would recommend contacting his company’s HR rep and asking what the protocol is in this situation.

      I once gave a boss bad news he did not want to hear. A program he was very desperate to run, was not going to be possible due to safety regulations. I showed him the documentation indicating what standards we would have to meet to run his program: he was not willing or able to give us those resources. He became angry, accused me of lying, and sent me home.

      When I called HR and explained the situation, they said that he was allowed to send me home, but that he could not send me home without pay, so I did get paid for the remaining 4-5 hours of my shift.

      1. envirolady*

        Yeaaaah I don’t think they have an HR rep.

        This is a really small business. Two owners and like seven full time staff total. I’m not sure how bringing up the idea of hiring an HR contractor would make them react.

        Re: your story – wow. That is wild! I used to work for an H&S consulting company and you wouldn’t believe how many people have very similar issues with management and standards.

    15. WantonSeedStitch*

      Wow, no. This is not cool. If the small mistake caused cascading problems that they needed to fix, and couldn’t give him any more work to do until they were able to fix it, that’s the only reason I can see them telling him to stay home with no pay. But even then, it’s not to reflect, it’s “look, we need to clean this mess up, and until we do, there isn’t anything for you to work on, so we’re going to take you off the schedule tomorrow while we fix it.” This sounds like a place that thinks punishing its employees is more important than making sure its employees grow and learn how to do their jobs better.

      1. envirolady*

        Yes, that makes total sense (re: them having to fix it and no work being available). They were working on a busy project that day and could have totally used his help and input. But now they are slightly behind because of their own choice to make him stay home.

        It’s weird because they sort of pride themselves on being very human-centered and “nice.” But I think I see it for what it is: a bunch of BS that is used more for marketing. Who in the world forces an hourly employee to lose money because of something they offered to fix (that was totally fixable, btw)?? Thank you for your input, it’s definitely helping us think this through.

    16. juneybug*

      I wonder what are the employment laws in your state. Maybe give Department of Labor a call to see if they are allowed to send an employee home without pay. Some states, once you report in (which sounds like he did), the company has to pay you for the whole shift.

    17. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No. This is not normal for a small mistake. WTF was he supposed to reflect upon?

      I have suspended people for things before and made them take the day off. These things include being excessively late to shift work and minor safety violations that are meant to say “you really goofed up and thank God nobody was hurt, you need to take the day off and remember this next time you do something reckless.” But again, they need to be actively messing up and not just “oh you forgot to lock the drawer last night.” or “you put up the wrong notice.” or whatever it may be.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        Especially when the task isn’t even in their normal job description and they were given zero instruction on how to do it! As somebody said upthread, ESP should never be a job requirement. When you’re expected to “reflect” on how to do a better job and the only answer is “work for someone who doesn’t assign tasks they know I’ve never done before without telling me how to do them,” then that’s what you should be looking for a way to do — work for someone else who’s like that, since the current employer clearly isn’t.

    18. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Definitely weird, it could be a “time out” sort of dynamic (have there been any other incidents in this company with ‘parental’ sort of vibes? – though I appreciate he has only been there a few months so it may be too early to tell).
      Is there any possibility they are under pressure to ‘cut costs’ and seized what they saw as an opportunity to do that?

  5. New girl*

    It’s been a minute since I’ve needed to update my resume. What program is the best for formatting? In the past I used word but now sure if things have changed.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I went to Word and found a template I liked. Simple as that. Unless you’re in a really specific field, I wouldn’t worry about using an existing template. You can also Google resume templates and see which one you like best. Just don’t use a photo and don’t take up too much (if any) space with gimmicky graphics.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      I still use word, but I don’t do much fancy formatting either, just sections and bullets

    3. nep*

      I have been going back and forth on that, and–especially after seeing a colleague’s fairly plan Word resume recently–I have decided to stick with Word with a simple layout and bullet points. Her resume is nothing fancy at all, just very impressive by its content.
      This will vary by field, of course, but my conclusion has been that in most cases that’s the best way to go. I’ll be interested to read responses here.
      (I’ve read, even if you use Word, not to use ‘Header’ function for name and contacts, as that isn’t good with ATS. Maybe someone else can confirm.)

    4. Jellyfish*

      Word is still fine for formatting. I was job hunting in 2019 and got plenty of responses with a clean but unexciting Word doc resume. The program offers a couple different templates that you can use a base too.

      Make sure to also save it as a PDF, and submit that version when possible. That will ensure your formatting is preserved no matter what weird program a potential employer runs it through.

      2. ThePear8*

        +1 on the PDF, so important. I too use word and save a PDF version for when I actually submit/send off my resume. Otherwise yeah, formatting can appear funky if someone else opens it on their device – think like the last letter of each line pushed down onto a new line and screwing up all the alignment/formatting or spacing being different, etc.

    5. SheLooksFamiliar*

      If you can avoid using a template, please do. ATSs and CRM tools are a lot better about parsing info from templates than they used to be, but there are still older and iffy systems out there. You only have to create and format your document in a simple format once, and edit content only as needed or desired.

      I took an informal poll of my jobseeking friends. Everyone who has complained about having to re-type info on their resume into the application used a Word template to create their resume. Not a scientific study, but noteworthy!

      1. Raia*

        I just tried using Notepad to copy paste my info into and it removed all of the weird symbols to make re-entering the resume info into the application program easier

    6. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve been able to do what I need in google docs. I haven’t been willing to buy MSOffice for my personal use, so I uploaded my current resume into google docs and I have been able to make all my updates. And every job I applied to accepted google docs.

    9. Donkey Hotey*

      I use InDesign, but that’s because I’m more of the “anal-retentive has a hyphen” sort.
      Word can totally work, especially if you can fidget with paragraph and line settings so it doesn’t look like it came off a typewriter.
      But, as others have mentioned, the big thing is saving it as a .pdf.

    10. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I used Word recently and it’s fine because you want only minimal formatting (headings, bullets). Unfussy, factual, and laser-focused on the position(s) you’re targeting.

      Alison’s back catalog of advice is a great place to start for layout and content. She combined all the links into a single post recently – I’ll look for it and post in a reply.

    11. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      A few years ago I purchased a resume template off etsy.com, and I HIGHLY recommend it. It was $15US, and included a 7 page resume guide (with a whole page of action words which I used quite a bit). There are tons of options, and I got a shout out from the hiring manager that he liked my resume design. I know not everyone may be able to afford this option, but I found it helpful.

    12. voluptuousfire*

      I personally like Google Docs more than Word for resume formatting. You don’t get all the wierd formatting issues you can get in Word.

    14. Quinalla*

      Word is fine as is google docs if you don’t have word, keep your format simple and readable. I usually download a few example resumes to look at when I want to brush mine up, but I keep it really straightforward and always get compliments on how easy my resume is to read.

    15. Anax*

      I like LibreOffice and used it for my job hunt last year; it’s free, I don’t have Microsoft Office at home, and I feel like it gives me a little more control over versioning and formatting than a cloud-based solution like Google Docs. (I’m also in IT, so I have irrationally strong opinions about my text editors.)

      It’s a fork from OpenOffice, if you used that in the 2000s. I wouldn’t recommend Apache OpenOffice at this time due to security issues.

  6. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Vacations request, take two: my boss says he’s too busy, but maaaaaaaaybe next week we can discuss it. Come on, it’s just one working week! Fingers crossed.

    1. WellRed*

      Uncross your fingers and email him, stating that you would like to take a week of the vacation that is part of your annual compensation and benefits and what time would he like to meet? If he still doesn’t, can you reach out to HR for help?

    2. Pickwick*

      My friends org just instituted a 3rd step for requesting PTO. The first is to put it in the online payroll system, second is to send a calendar invite to supervisor who will approve or not. The new third step is to fill out a form to send to supervisor for approval that then goes to HR. The kicker is that the company wants a reason why you are requesting time off.
      I told friend to write “time off”.

      Converse, seems like you work at a similar organization. Why there is so much angst for bosses to approve PTO is beyond me.

      1. Emi.*

        Our T&A system includes a “justification” box and I basically always put “time off” or “appointment.”

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        The requiring justification part may be an awkward way of trying to ascertain if the leave is due to COVID. Our antiquated system of a leave request (PDF form) has a new box added to note if any of our time off is due to COVID, because then the leave is covered by Families First Coronavirus Response Act and not just regular vacation/sick leave.

  7. Rachel the Admin*

    Alison, you recommended that I post this here :)

    I am the administrative coordinator in the best office ever. I have been here for 12 years, watching the organization grow and change in almost entirely positive ways. I would tell you about it, but we are unique in my metro area and would be entirely identifiable. Relevant to this discussion is that we provide services both directly to disabled children and professional development and communities of practice for teachers and school administrators who work with disabled children who can otherwise access their main curriculum.

    About a year after I began working here, I was diagnosed with both bipolar disorder and ADHD. My boss at the time (who now works at a different amazing organization addressing the needs of a different part of the disability community) took this news well, was unsurprised (especially at the “and your high IQ has been masking this all this time” part), and offered all of the accommodations I needed and some I hadn’t thought of. One of these was her accepting that I am very good at being the office generalist and do not need nor want to be promoted.

    And yet, one of the things that has been a common thread through all of my mid-year and annual reviews is that while I am respectful and kind to everyone, my social skills take a little getting used to when new people come on board. On my twelfth annual review, I asked if the organization would pay for me to have some sort of social skills training, and was told yes.

    So now I finally get to my actual question: do you and your readers have recommendations for places to look at – or avoid – for this sort of training?

    Many, MANY thanks.

    1. ra*

      This is maybe something you’re already covering if you’ve got this diagnosis from a doctor, but my best social skills learning came from working with a therapist who specialized in skills acquisition. I had/have social anxiety, so it would be different, but we did a lot of practicing for real life and creating “social stories” about things that could happen in social interaction and appropriate ways to respond. We role played situations a lot, until key skills (like small talk and polite boundary enforcement) became automatic tools I could reach for instead of floundering. It felt like someone was letting me in on the “rules” that I sometimes worried everyone else secretly knew somehow. You might start with your therapist, or recommendations from them?

      2. Rachel the Admin*

        Thanks. I’m 50 years old and generally successful, so I’m actually looking for something geared toward older professionals rather than neurodiverse people.

        1. MissBliss*

          For what it’s worth– generally successful 50-year-olds can also benefit from therapy, particularly if they are helping you acquire skills that you desire. They’re just a different type of teacher.

          But if you’re opposed to therapy, for any number of reasons, which is totally valid and only up to you to decide, maybe look into a life/engagement/success coach. I’ve worked with both over the past few months and they have areas of overlap, but there’s no need to bring insurance into the question with an engagement coach, and their clientele may skew more toward the professional go-getter crowd than a therapist.

    2. Picard*

      Dale Carnegies’ How to Win Friends and Influence People is where I was sent when my office had the same issue with me. eh. Useful? Maybe. In my case, many years down the road, I suspect I’m on the spectrum so there having specific tools to use were helpful to me. In general, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve only slightly been able to tamp down my habit of jumping into things without waiting (also part of my ADD). I do try to be more aware of HOW I speak to people but its an ongoing struggle.

      What specific social skills do they think you’re lacking?

      1. Rachel the Admin*

        Mainly reading people for how much they like to be checked in on, getting a sense of different communication styles, things like that.

        1. JustaTech*

          Wait, we’re just supposed to know what other people’s communication styles are? My work had a whole outside course on that because it turns out that even though we’re a bunch of nerds we don’t all have the same communication style and it was a bigger problem than we realized.

          1. RagingADHD*

            Not know automatically, but between reading cues and trial-and error, you can figure it out a lot of the time.

            Most people don’t, and just stumble along, though.

            1. Arvolin*

              I’m willing to believe that lots of people, maybe most, can figure it out from cues and trial-and-error, but some of us on the autism spectrum don’t do well with cues and could use more structure.

              1. RagingADHD*

                Yes, of course. I was addressing the idea that one could somehow “just know” other people’s communication styles.

                Nobody can do that.

    3. Anon for this*

      Ask the doctor who diagnosed you for referrals. My son, who has autism, was referred to an organization that provides a variety of services, including counseling and social skills groups. The organization put together a small group of similar situated young men, they met weekly in a group led by a licensed social worker (under the supervision of a psychologist) and occasionally had outings where they practiced in real life what they had worked on in the office. It was very helpful, and I would never have heard of the organization if not for the doctor. (Note – it took a while for them to get the appropriate number of people for the group, but we were dependent on insurance so had to wait, and honestly I think the group situation was helpful. If your employer is paying, it might be possible to get one-on-one help, if that is recommended.)

      1. Rachel the Admin*

        Thanks. I’m 50 years old and generally successful, so I’m actually looking for something geared toward older professionals rather than neurodiverse people.

        1. A Corporeal Body*

          What do you think the difference between something geared to neurodiverse people and one geared towards older professionals?

          Why would something geared towards neurodiverse people not be helpful, if you’ve discovered that you have neurodiverse diagnoses that are masked – wouldn’t addressing that be helpful, even if you are generally successful and older?

        2. Nesprin*

          As a successful midcareer professional who also happens to be neurodiverse, there’s some judgement here that I don’t quite like. Quite frankly, traditional social-skills type work is not geared at neurodiverse persons, and there’s some unique challenges, such as impulsivity, that may not work in more traditional settings.
          It sounds like you would benefit from a therapist who specializes in “dual label” persons (i.e. gifted and also learning disabled)

          1. ThoughtsToday*

            Agreed. Real judgey language coming from a neurodiverse person about other neurodiverse people. Our needs differ from neurotypicals and that’s something you probably should keep in mind if you actually want to work on this issue. Shooting down any attempt to help you address how your diagnoses are impacting your social skills is mindblowing to me.

          2. NopeNopeNope*

            It’s kinda funny (not ha ha funny but y’know) that it’s a very strong piece of evidence that they deeeeefinitely need the training they’re looking for, yah?

        3. DisturbNotHerDream*

          Hey Rachel, I’m sure you didn’t intend it this way, but this sort of response is pretty upsetting. I’m having a particular issue with the use of “rather than.” Being an older, successful professional is great (I hope fit all of those descriptors myself one day!), but it doesn’t exempt a person from being neurodivergent. In fact, looking at resources specifically for neurodivergent older professionals would probably be your best bet! As a fellow ADHDer, I strongly suggest prioritizing advice specific to your diagnoses. This is especially the case if those diagnoses are significant factors in your pursuit of the social skills training. I hope you find something that works best for you!!

        4. Mike C.*

          This is pretty myopic and offensive. So is bragging about having a high IQ. Outside of unusually low results, it’s just a number that doesn’t have any impact on your life from a category of tests that are well known to have several weaknesses and biases.

    4. Lyudie*

      Depending on what skills you are looking to improve, if you can find a class doing Crucial Conversations, that’s a really good one. I did it through my company a few years ago. It’s about handling difficult conversations at work with people at various levels. So it could be helpful for interpersonal communication, conflict resolution, conflict avoidance, etc.

        1. WhatDayIsIt*

          When I was struggling at work, I took a conflict management workshop for a few hours that was beneficial. It was offered through my work (university). Maybe you can find something similar to that?

    5. ThoughtsToday*

      This isn’t a class, but just putting it out there that a therapist could do wonders. I work with a therapist who specializes in work with autistic individuals and it’s been 1) wonderful not to have to deal with judgment, 2) know my therapist knows exactly where I’m coming from, and 3) be able to guide me through work interactions in a way that makes sense for me. It’s lovely.

    6. Jean (just Jean)*

      Have you checked out CHADD (U.S.-based organization for children & adults with ADHD or ADD) and ADDitude magazine (which I think is put out by another organization, but I’m not sure)? There may be articles or webinars to help strengthen social skills of people diagnosed as adults. I know that CHADD has many local chapters with programs aimed at parents of kids, and at adults living with ADD/ADHD. There are also a gazillion books with suggestions, ideas, etc. Edward Hallowell is one author to look for. Kathleen Nadeau has also written a lot about the experience of ADD/ADHD for girls & women.
      Mom here of someone on the autism spectrum — we enrolled our child in social skills groups for many years. Group was run by the psychology group practice Alv0rd Baker & Associates. They are in the Maryland suburbs outside Washington DC but they developed and published a curriculum that may be available elsewhere. I think it has “Resilience” in the title.
      Final idea: go to the “Find a Therapist” section of Psychology Magazine (published by American Psychological Association). You can sort therapists by many variables, including area of specialization; if I recall correctly one of the variables is ADD/ADHD awareness.
      Good luck and good wishes. Your office sounds like it’s doing good work and filling a community need, which is great.
      My own ADD was identified in mid-life. Too long a story for here, but it’s been an interesting trip and not all bad.

    7. plant psychologist*

      Depending on what state/city you’re in, some vocational rehabilitation or state mental health departments have supported employment programs called Individual Placement and Support, that are designed to help people with mental illnesses (and other disabilities) attain and maintain competitive employment. They have specific people (usually with social work training) called “employment specialists” who coach and support people based on their individual needs in exactly this type of role. You obviously have and maintain employment already, but IPS programs might be a good resource to look into for these sorts of skills trainings.

    8. kestrafalaria*

      Good for you on being aware of the need and working for an organization that is open to helping you gain these skills! Would occupational therapy or a neuropsych evaluation/referral be an option? Otherwise, therapy is a good place to work on things like this.

    9. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’m not sure what you’re looking for exactly with “social skills” training but a few resources you could try:
      • If you want feedback about your communication, body language, tone of voice/delivery, you could try joining an organization like Toastmasters.
      • If it’s more business etiquette training that could help with soft office skills (like writing email, or customer service), there are plenty of orgs for that, including online courses. Try the Emily Post Institute (I have no experience with them, but it’s a well-known and reputable org).
      • It doesn’t sound to me from your post like you need a behavioral therapist, but if your ADHD is causing anxiety, depression, or other mood problems it could help.

    10. ADD Anon*

      I had good luck with a Steven Covey course. It was a few years ago so I’m digging for the exact title…something like ‘Dealing with Difficult People”.
      Scripts and role-playing situations with immediate feedback from peers as well as the class instructor. (And then a chance for a discount for more classes for the year if you sign up same day as class…I fell for the hard sell and got more than my money’s worth when we hit a slow period.l)

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would echo others mentioning a therapist or someone specialized in your specific requirements. Courses and seminars are going to be geared towards those without your specific diagnosis.

      They’re also all geared towards early professionals,instead of simply fine tuned towards a patient’s requirements.

      Between the defensive dialog when others have mentioned therapy and specific coaching…and the fact you didn’t find your bosses response of “and your high IQ has been masking this all this time” add on, it sounds like you’re in a bit of a trap of thinking your diagnosis is some how shameful and you’re downplaying a lot.

      The vast majority of the bipolar and ADHD folks in my life, there are many, are high functioning brilliant individuals. I know literal MD’s who are diagnosed with both.

      I would suggest medical professionals and avoid “coaches” or “classes” geared towards very generic kind of social skills training. They’re often a waste of money and time.

  8. Anon Anon*

    My kiddo needs an outpatient surgery. We got our surgery date, but it’s just a few before a big deadline at work. The surgery while medical necessary could theoretically be pushed back a month to after the deadline, however, I’m very uncomfortable with that sort of delay. However, I have a couple of co-workers who are upset and feel like I am being inconsiderate of my fellow co-workers, that I’d be taking a couple of days off in the lead up to this major deadline, because of my kiddo’s surgery. So am I being inconsiderate when I could potentially get the surgery rescheduled? I’m concerned now that I am, and that I’m upsetting my teammates.

    1. hmmmm*

      Not at all, you are not being inconsiderate. You don’t know what things are going to be like in a month – a covid relapse, company restructuring. Do as much as you can to help prior to the surgery. This is a one off necessity, not something you are doing every single deadline.

      1. Just stoppin' by to chat*

        Agreed with going forward with the surgery, especially if your current job provides health insurance for the surgery. I completely get feeling obligated to schedule life around work, and I’ve done that earlier in my career. But you also have time now to prep as much as you can, and just respond like it’s such an obvious thing that of course you’re not going to reschedule a surgery for a deadline. I mean, any of you could get really sick right before the deadline, or g-d forbid have a house fire, or any number of things. The best thing you can is treat the surgery like a high -priority (which it is for your family) and prep as much ahead of time as you can. And good luck to your kiddo!

    2. Aster*

      They think you’re being inconsiderate to get your *child* medical treatment? When children grow fast and their medical conditions can change very fast? WTF. I can’t tell you how to convince these ghouls to act like human beings but I can tell you they’re being ridiculous.

      May your kiddo heal up well and completely.

      1. Anon Anon*

        I think it’s because it could be delayed by a month. It’s medically necessary not medically urgent. I understand their frustration, I don’t think they are being ghouls, but I don’t think that they understand (the people who have commented do not have children themselves).

        1. Schnoodle HR*

          There you have it.

          I had a job where my boss didn’t understand why I had to pump multiple times a day and not just pump it all at once.

          Turns out he doesn’t have breasts that make milk so…

          1. AnonInTheCity*

            I hope you asked him why he didn’t just pee all at once in the morning and not pee again all day.

            2. mreasy*

              omg it’s like a Reddit thread where the person’s boss thought they could just “take care of” their whole period at home by like…trying to get it all out at once? Anyways jeez.

            3. I wish I could...*

              I wish I could urinate just once a day and be over and done with it. It would make my life a hell of a lot easier. (I’m diabetic.)

          2. Shenandoah*

            HA, like…. if there was a way to only pump once a day, lactating people would have figured that out. If only.

          3. Observer*

            No. You don’t have to have “X” to understand some of the pragmatics of “X”.

            You don’t need to have kids to understand that “could” and “it’s advisable” as NOT the same thing, especially when it comes to stuff like medically necessary surgery. And you don’t to have kids to understand that this is a time where you really don’t want to push schedules for medically necessary procedures any further out than you NEED to. In fact, you don’t need to have kids to understand when someone says “I know that I could technically push it off for a month, but things can change so fast, especially with kids, that I don’t want to take that chance.”

        2. Aster*

          You are a good hearted and empathetic person. I’m livid at your coworkers on your behalf. :) Just because a surgery *can* be delayed doesn’t mean it’s best for the patient, and all the more so when it’s a child who is suffering.

          Anyway, I absolutely think you are the furthest from inconsiderate. And I send you strength. Having one’s kid have surgery is difficult for the parent too.

          1. Anon Anon*

            Thanks. And I’m not rescheduling the surgery. When I scheduled it, I didn’t think for a moment about how it fit into any deadlines. I took the first available date. However, as this is the first time I’ve run into this issue and this type of reaction I wanted to makes sure that I wasn’t being thoughtless. I was childless for many years, and so I know how it feels when it seems like you’ve been left holding the bag.

            1. Observer*

              This has nothing to do with being left to hold the bag because (theoretical) you are childless. I would expect nothing different if it were your spouse / SO, your parent or someone for whom you are the primary support system.

            2. Pennyworth*

              You are not being thoughtless, and having your co-workers pressuring you to change the date is something you don’t need right now. Could you say to them ‘changing the date is not an option anymore’? – and let them assume that a change is not possible rather that just something you are no longer considering.

        3. un-pleased*

          I have a grand-kiddo about to have necessary-but-not-urgent surgery. A month delay now in the time of COVID could mean catching an illness that moves the surgery from necessary to urgent because you have no real idea in that scenario when it can be rescheduled. Your coworkers need to get over it.

        4. pancakes*

          They don’t need to have children of their own in order to understand that your child’s healthcare shouldn’t revolve around them. They just need to not be absurdly self-regarding.

        5. tangerineRose*

          I don’t have kids, and I think your co-workers are being inconsiderate. Your kid needs surgery – you scheduled it for sooner than later – that seems like the right thing to do.

        6. Jill*

          I don’t have children, your coworkers are being absolute jerks. Medically necessary means as soon as you get a chance. Medically urgent means if this doesn’t happen immediately there will be deadly consequences, I can’t believe it’s even a question for them. My dad was supposed to have his hip replaced March 30th, a revision on one that was completely out of socket; necessary, not urgent. COVID hit and they cancelled 3 days before, he wasn’t able to have the surgery until August 4th. Please do not question your judgement on this for a second! Get him in sooner if you can!

    3. Schnoodle HR*

      No, it’s your co workers that are inconsiderate of another human life, in this case, your child.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Your child needs surgery, so they can deal. Prep as much as you can, work with them to make plans and try not to leave anything hanging, but it’s basically an emergency. Don’t make your kid wait a month for something medically necessary just to satisfy your co-workers. Would they feel the same if you were the one who needed the surgery?

      1. Anon Anon*

        I know one of my co-workers raised a point that they asked a family member of theirs to delay a surgical procedure to accommodate a deadline. I mean that’s fine if they want to do that, but I’m not about to do the same.

        1. Natalie*

          Well, now you know that they don’t need these kinds of details about medical procedures for you or your family. Any future treatments or procedures have to be done when scheduled and can’t be postponed even a day.

          1. Anon Anon*

            I think the mistake that I made was in the lead up to scheduling the surgery that I made a comment to a co-worker that I wanted to get it over with as soon as possible.

            1. valentine*

              I made a comment to a co-worker that I wanted to get it over with as soon as possible.
              There’s nothing wrong with this.

              Your coworkers are being horrible. Don’t give them details in future and ask your manager not to share your reasons for taking leave. Keep the surgery date. I hope it goes well.

            2. Observer*

              Uh, that is what NORMAL and REASONABLE people generally want!

              Your mistake was not in expressing a very normal thought. The mistake was to assume that you were dealing with a normal, reasonable and decent person. It’s a reasonable mistake. But going forward, know that these are people you cannot share ANYTHING with.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Uh, yeah, that’s a bit much. I understand if we’re talking wart removal vs. sinus surgery, but come on– that’s a choice that should only exist between you and your kid’s doctor.

          I once got seated on a jury right before one of our big yearly projects. I wasn’t about to say to the judge, “Oh yeah, I can’t sit on this jury because I have to create a couple of reports that other people on my team are also capable of doing.” And it was fine.

          If you’re REALLY feeling pressed… outpatient surgery, depending on what it is, may not require your full attention. If your kid just needs you around while they sleep off the anesthesia, then think about whether you can be available for short spurts in the day or for certain tasks that aren’t time-restricted. But don’t feel obligated to offer that!

        3. What's with Today, today?*

          I’m pretty sure my response would be along the lines of “Cool story.”
          *Changes subject*

        4. Lance*

          I very, very dislike that move of theirs, to be honest. Sure, deadlines are deadlines, and work needs to get done… but family and the like should still be able to come first.

          If someone was suddenly gone tomorrow, things would still move on. People would have to manage. Work with them in the interim to make things easier, sure, but don’t follow in those sorts of footsteps.

        5. tangerineRose*

          “one of my co-workers raised a point that they asked a family member of theirs to delay a surgical procedure to accommodate a deadline.”

          This tells me something not so great about the co-worker.

        6. Observer*

          They WHAT?!

          I could just see the agony aunt letter:

          Question:
          I have a condition that needs surgery, but my spouse says that it’s going to interfere with their work schedule. How can I manage my surgery so it doesn’t bother my spouse too much?
          Answer:
          By leaving the idiot. Then he won’t be bothered by your surgery (or anything else about you) and you’ll be free to find people who actually care about you.

    5. Delta Delta*

      I hate your coworkers.

      Your child needs surgery and you need to be there with your child for lots of reasons which would be fun to list for your coworkers so they can see how terrible they are being. What they overlook (other than their abject awfulness) is that you are able to give a head’s up about your absence, and everyone can plan accordingly.

      Don’t reschedule your kid’s surgery.

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      What?!? No, you do not delay. You schedule the surgery for when its possible and recommended, and everyone else deals because it’s generally understood that crappy timing happens.

      The wording I’d use for your coworkers is something like “so, in order to not inconvenience you, you’d prefer that I delay my child’s medically necessary surgery, against medical advice, potentially causing additional complications or pain for a child?” Then just stare at them. Because they’re being crappy people. And if they continue it, please talk to the manager and ask that they intervene.

      1. Anon Anon*

        To be honest, I didn’t even ask the surgeon about delaying by a month, so it’s possible that there are no significant risks or complications. It’s just one of those things that with flu season coming up and COVID (especially given that my kiddo is still in diapers and cannot talk), I want to get it done as soon as possible. So I don’t really feel like I can use the against medical advice.

        And I don’t think that my c0-workers are crappy, I just think that they take their jobs very seriously, and because they either haven’t had medical issues of their own of this nature nor do they have children, that they simply can’t relate. To them as it’s not medically urgent, then what is the big deal in delaying the surgery. And the deadline is major and complicated, but as others have noted, it can be planned for.

          2. TechWorker*

            Yeah of all the lies this is one I would have *no* qualms about whatsoever. ‘The surgery has to be this date, it’s not ideal but *shrugs*’. Absolutely none of their business.

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          If the surgeon wanted to push it out a month, they would. You’re bending over backwards trying not to feel guilty when you are doing the appropriate thing and YES, your coworkers are being crappy people. I don’t have children. I haven’t had medical issues of my own of this nature. I still get it – your child need surgery, you are said child’s parent, you will be taking some time off to be with the child. What I need to know is: when and for how long, so let’s start planning. Your coworkers have zero excuses here.

          And remember – if you DID delay, there’s an argument that could be made that you were abusing your child because of the delay. So wipe the delay possibility out of your head. The only reason the surgery gets delayed is if the surgeon delays it. Your coworkers need to pull their heads out of their respective a**es and stop being sh*tty people.

          1. Wintergreen*

            +1
            Just because it can be done doesn’t mean its whats best for your child. Your coworkers don’t get a vote in how to handle your child’s medical issues. They are being crappy. Don’t bend yourself into a pretzel to please them and don’t let them feel guilty for doing what is best for your child.

            2. Wintergreen*

              sorry, left out two important words here
              “and don’t them them MAKE YOU feel guilty for doing what is best.”

              (I don’t know what happened, I tried to correct this once and it didn’t appear. Sorry if there is two corrections)

        3. I'm A Little Teapot*

          And the details are none of their business anyway. The conversation goes something like “I know this timing is not great, but child need to have surgery and its been scheduled for x date. I will be taking x-y dates off to take care of child. I’ve got some ideas on how we can handle my absence related to the z project, when do you want to talk about it?”

          Your child is entitled to medical privacy. HIPAA applies to children too.

            1. I'm A Little Teapot*

              True. I should have clarified. Yes, HIPAA doesn’t directly apply, since they’re not medical providers. However, since HIPAA applies to children, it also implies that children have a right to privacy.

        4. Ali G*

          You are giving your coworkers way too much power here. They don’t need to know anything other than your kid needs surgery on this day and these are the days I am taking off. Period. End of conversation, unless the conversation is related to what you are going to get done before your leave starts.

        5. Ranon*

          There’s a pandemic. Literally anything could happen in a month when it comes to accessing medically necessary but non urgent surgery. If circumstances are good where you are to get it done now, you should absolutely get it done now.

          Your coworkers can deal. They may not like it, but they can deal.

        6. cmcinnyc*

          100% of your coworkers have been children. That they are alive today in adult bodies means someone took care of them sufficiently in their youth. But apparently not well enough that they understand certain human basics like “children need care, daily” and “minors can’t escort themselves to and from surgery and fill out the paperwork.”

          Please, PLEASE don’t raise your child to believe that necessary surgery, it’s timing and relevance, is something to be decided by a random group of people that don’t love them and don’t care about anything but their own convenience. You bending over backwards to explain that your coworkers are good people who just don’t think it should be a big deal that YOUR CHILD NEEDS SURGERY is super concerning, frankly.

        7. Esmeralda*

          Nope, your co-workers are crappy. Anyone who takes their job so seriously that they can’t work up a teeny shred of empathy is a crap person.

        8. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

          Your child’s provider has given implicit medical advice to have the surgery on the scheduled date, by doing it now and not later. You can definitely use “against medical advice.”
          Your coworkers may not *be* terrible, but the stress of this deadline is making them *act* terrible. You do not owe them any information, or any explanation at all, even if it feels like you’ve already opened the door by giving them something. If some sort of emergency befell a team member hours before the deadline, they would presumably scramble and get it taken care of, and they can do the same here — but, as was noted upthread, they have the benefit of a heads up.
          I hope all goes well with your child’s procedure!

        9. pancakes*

          The idea that people need to personally experience medical issues or have children in order to understand that they’re out of line in asking a coworker to delay their kid’s surgery is setting the bar really, really low. Too low. There’s a word for people who take their jobs more seriously than anything else in life: Careerists.

        10. VelociraptorAttack*

          Your coworkers are absolutely being terrible people, please don’t excuse this behavior. If your kid is in diapers and can’t talk then either they’re very young or they have other medical needs which kind of exacerbates this. You aren’t taking a week off when your teenager gets their gallbladder removed here.

          1. VelociraptorAttack*

            Which by the way, depending upon a variety of factors, would be FINE. My gallbladder removal was super easy but not everyone’s is.

        11. Mockingjay*

          Your child’s medical needs are none of your coworkers’ business.
          I can’t repeat that enough. If they ask, “no the surgery will not be rescheduled. I am not discussing this.” Here’s what you can say and do [NO APOLOGIES]:

          “I am taking the 15th off. Here’s what I am doing to ensure we meet our deadline: I will complete and submit the widget report by next Tuesday. The parts have been ordered and should be delivered on the 10th; I’ve copied Mabel on the supplier emails so she can follow up if needed.” Etc.

          For goodness’ sake, you’re talking about taking off ONE DAY, maybe two. If that one day impacts the schedule that badly, the company has much bigger problems.

          Wishing a speedy recovery for your child!

        12. Delta Delta*

          Your child is small enough to be in diapers and needs surgery. This really shouldn’t be a conversation anymore. You have a surgery date, the surgery is happening, the team will have to figure out the project for a couple days without you. Are they seriously suggesting a project – which I’m sure is important – is more important than the health of a human baby? I’d ask them this.

          I don’t even have kids and I’m finding them outrageous.

        13. Observer*

          It’s still a medically stupid thing to do. You don’t need a surgeon to tell you that it’s a medically stupid thing to do. So you don’t have to say that “my surgeon told me” but you most definitely CAN say “medically bad idea”, because it is 100% true.

          I just think that they take their jobs very seriously, and because they either haven’t had medical issues of their own of this nature nor do they have children, that they simply can’t relate.

          Nope. You don’t need to have kids or medical problems to understand that when someone says “MY X (child, parent, SO, etc) needs surgery and I’m doing it as soon as possible” you don’t push back on the schedule (unless you’re scheduled to do some lifesaving surgery yourself, that day.) That level of lack of empathy and unwillingness to consider anything but THEIR WORK SCHEDULE as important *is* garbage behavior and tends to indicate a garbage person.

          The fact that your coworker actually asked someone close to them to push off a surgery tells me that this is not about lack of knowledge. And I hope they never have kids.

        14. PollyQ*

          Your co-workers may not be uniformly crappy, but they are very definitely being crappy about this. I’m childless & single, and I’ve faced godawful deadlines, but I would never in a million years try to tell someone that they should move a surgery for themselves or their family just because of the crunch. I’m trying to think of a polite way to say “This is none of your business, and I don’t need to make excuses for the choices I’m making for my child’s health.” Hmm.

          Maybe, “I understand that you’re worried about getting everything done by the deadline, but this is the choice we’ve made for our child’s health. [with an implicit ‘and I’m not going to discuss it further.’] I’ll do everything I can to help up until the time I leave.”

    7. LaDeeDa*

      You are not being inconsiderate, for goodness sake, your child needs surgery. They are being inconsiderate to even think of asking you to reschedule. That is absurd, and don’t do it.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        pardon my manners I was so appalled at your coworkers I forgot to wish your child a speedy and full recovery. Good luck!

    8. Artemesia*

      Why do your co-workers know you could reschedule? I would never let that be known. If I were in your position, I would say ‘we had a lot of trouble getting this surgeon and it was the only time available in his schedule. Billy needs to get this done and this is when it can be done.’ And then stop explaining. Some things are more important than others and your child’s health is one of them. Do what you can do work longer and harder on the project in the lead up — but then take the time you must for the surgery.

      1. Anon Anon*

        I am very friendly with one of my co-workers and so that person was aware that surgery was on the table, and I noted to them that I wanted to get it over with ASAP. So when I told them the surgery date they asked me if I had asked about dates after the deadline, and I admitted that I had not. So some of this is my own fault for sharing more information than necessary.

        1. Mockingjay*

          None of this is your fault. You mentioned a concern about your child in passing and your coworker immediately made it about her. She’s a cow.

          I’m taking a day off next week because my husband is having outpatient surgery. I don’t care what kind of deadline I have at work, I’m not going to have him reschedule for my project’s convenience. There will always be another deadline. I’ve marked the shared calendar, I’ve noted what’s due when and am finishing the last item this afternoon. If something crops up next week, they’ll either wait a day or get someone else to fill in.

          Take care of your child first and foremost. That relationship is infinitely more important than project X with Cow coworker.

        3. Observer*

          No, this is NOT your fault. I mean, sure take a lesson and learn that you cannot share anything with this person. Oh, also that this person is NOT someone you can trust. You might be able to have good lunches and outings with them, and you might even be able to have a good working relationship with them. But never, ever trust them to do the right thing from a human point of view.

        4. PollyQ*

          “Fault” is not the right word. Your co-workers are being crappy, and nothing you did is causing that behavior. However, it is perhaps a lesson learned about sharing personal information at work.

    9. WellRed*

      Your kid needs surgery. Any comment from any coworker other than, “Oh, no, what can I take off your plate?” is totally assholey. Your coworkers suck. Have they always sucked? File this information away.

      1. WellRed*

        Adding: I don’t have kids myself. Please don’t try to excuse your coworkers by lumping child-free folks together as assholes who take their jobs waaaaaay too seriously (you guys aren’t curing cancer or brokering world peace,right?)I.

        1. Anon Anon*

          No to cancer or world peace. We are shorter staffed than I think is appropriate (but we’ve always been that way), and the work we do is critical to the organization. But, the world will not crumble if I take a couple days off for this.

          1. Observer*

            If your department is short staffed, that is not your fault – and it is CERTAINLY not your child’s fault. You don’t consider putting off necessary surgery to accommodate and employer that won’t staff appropriately.

      2. Anon Anon*

        I shouldn’t have been shocked at the response from at least two of my co-workers. Their lives tends to revolve around whatever deadline that we have, and they often reschedule things to accommodate whatever deadline comes up. I know that they definitely think others should do the same as well.

        I will note that my boss had zero issues and was fine, which is the most important thing.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          My boss once made a comment about when I scheduled my own outpatient surgery, something along the lines of, “Oh, I guess you scheduled it for when we don’t have a lot going on, good job.” And I basically had– my doctor had recommended scheduling on a Friday so I would have the weekend to recover– and even THAT rubbed me the wrong way. Because I was miserable and needed this surgery. I didn’t need it right away, but I did need it as soon as my doctor could do it.

        2. Observer*

          There are some things that are OK to reschedule. And there are even some things that are ok to ask someone else to reschedule. But you do NOT EVER ask someone to reschedule a medical procedure. The fact that one coworker has actually asked someone else to to that and you are not the first victim, speaks volumes about this person’s lack of humanity.

    10. kat*

      Let’s say you did delay the surgery- and then the deadline got pushed back?
      What then?
      Schedule the surgery.
      Put your own oxygen mask on first.

      1. Anon Anon*

        “Put your own oxygen mask on first.”

        I like this thinking. The deadline definitely will not be pushed back at all. That is a 100% certainty. But, the world is crazy right now, so I don’t know what everything else will look like.

    11. CatCat*

      No. If your teammates are upset, they are directing their feelings to the wrong place. If there is a shortage of resources for the project deadline, management should be addressing that. Teammates need to use their words to talk to their supervisor if there’s a work problem created here. If management won’t provide the support, well, that’s not on you.

      If they start their bellyaching again, “My time off to attend my child’s medical needs is not up for discussion. Please see Supervisor if you need more resources or support while I am out.” Repeat as necessary. If necessary to repeat, you might want to loop in your boss.

      1. Anon Anon*

        Ultimately, I think the lack of resources is the real issue. Because of the nature of our work we have more on our plate because of the pandemic, and our bottom line has been impacted and we’ve been told that we have to make do the resources that we have. So in general we having to do more with less. So I’m sure even me being out for a few days is adding stress to their plates. However, that is not an issue that I can solve. And it’s good for me to remember that.

        I appreciate getting the feedback and best wishes.

        1. tangerineRose*

          They’re still being terrible. Your kid needs surgery; that’s important. Acting like a deadline is more important than your kid’s health isn’t OK.

    12. Kimmybear*

      Do not reschedule. Having dealt with hospitals too much during COVID, in our region everything is still a bit more tentative than before COVID. Things get moved too often and take a bit more planning and coordination. If it eventually gets moved by the doctor, so be it. Besides, the last few days before a big deliverable deadline should be final tweaks and adjustments and review by leadership, not major overhauls. (I recognize there are exceptions.)

    15. Esmeralda*

      F those co-workers. I’ve worked with people like that (thankfully not many). Is your boss ok giving you the time off? If yes, you’re good.

      Sit down with boss to discuss what you need to do before you are out to help prepare for the big deadline, then share with your team. If it makes sense to do so, you could instead meet with boss and team. If people complain after that, calmly remind them that you have planned X Y and Z. If they continue to complain, refer them to your boss.

      You said it is a few of your coworkers — are these people who are usually complainers and/or shirkers and/or pot-stirrers? If so, all the more reason to ignore them. Is the rest of your team griping about it, or are they being professional and maybe expressing sympathy about your child’s surgery?

      1. Anon Anon*

        Yes, my boss had no issue. My direct reports have no issues. And you would be correct, that the coworkers who are cranky about this situation can be complainers (not shirkers, the opposite really). However, I’m friendly with one of them, and the reaction made me think perhaps I’d been inconsiderate. It’s definitely the first time I’ve run into this situation, and so I think was taken off guard.

        2. Esmeralda*

          It’s very surprising when people act this way, especially people you are friendly with!

          I hope all goes well with your child’s surgery. I hope you’re taking care of yourself, too! Sometimes we are so focused on being strong for others, or being competent and *doing*, that we push our own needs aside. Please come back and let us know how it went and how you are doing.

    16. Uranus Wars*

      I recently took a day off because my SO had surgery (it was a Friday). We had a huge blowup the day before at work and me taking the time off was really, really not great but I was not willing to (or expected to FFS) to ask for the surgery to be moved. Actually, I think I just told people I needed the day to take care of something personal.

      What I did end up doing, though, was working while he was in surgery and recovery and intermittently throughout the day while he slept and between medications and meals.

      For the record I think you should take off and do so without a second thought. But I also sense from your comments you are feeling some guilt. Could this work for you? You would 100% be at limited capacity but is it possible to still contribute leading up to the deadline? And do not use PTO.

      1. Anon Anon*

        It’s one of those things that I’m not going to reschedule, it’s more a case of dealing with my own guilt. My hope is that I can still contribute on the two days that I’m working, however, I don’t want it to be expected that I’ll be working, in case the recovery is more challenging than anticipated and my kiddo needs me.

        1. Malarkey01*

          I think you might be a little shell shocked and not perceiving this correctly (my son needed surgery while still in diapers and I remember downplaying it to myself and feeling guilty for being out of work for a few days and thinking others needs were above mine and my family). Your coworkers are jerks. The only correct response to my baby/toddler needs surgery is “I’m sorry to hear that. Please take what time you need and let me know if I can help out with anything”. Of course you want to get this taken care of and over as soon as possible, that’s normal and the right attitude.

          Please repeat to yourself that your #1 responsibility is to your little one and you aren’t blowing off work to be a field trip chaperone but for a required surgery. If anyone makes a comment give them a truly confused look and say “you want me delay surgery for my baby? Why would you make me feel bad about getting medical care”. Then accept that these people are serious jerks.

    17. Rachel the Admin*

      This actually just happened at my workplace; a coworker’s teenage son has needed a lot of surgery for an ACL tear, and needed another operation last month. Pretty much every communication she sent to *anyone* that day (while she was in the waiting room trying not to worry) was responded to with “how is J? can I take care of this thing you just asked about?”

    18. nm*

      There is no need to delay the surgery. Also, even if it *can* be delayed, your coworkers don’t need to know that, it’s none of their business.
      Continue as planned and remember that they’ve behaved inappropriately and will probably try to cross boundaries in other ways when it’s convenient for them.

    19. RagingADHD*

      Your coworkers are way out of line.

      They want you to delay medical treatment for your child, to suit their convenience?

      They are being horrible. Please ignore them.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Any nice surprises for you this week?

        Or work gear that gives you a boost to use?

        I delivered on a massive work deadline this week and am celebrating by treating myself to a few things. One thing I’ve been needing is a good headset/mike because I do a lot of videoconferencing and work with audio.

        I was disappointed in the fact that everything with the features I wanted was either plain black, cost 3x as much, or looked like a pre-teen boy’s video game setup.

        Then I discovered that you can get skins for everything now! I thought decorative skins were just for phones and laptops. But no, they had some made to fit my new headset – so now I will have a pretty floral experience when I’m working.

        It makes me unaccountably happy.

    20. Clever username goes here*

      A surgery date is a surgery date. If it’s not urgent surgery, there is always the risk of the date being pushed if an emergency case bumps you off the schedule. Stick with the date you were given. If ANY of your (awful) co-workers bring it up, I’d say something like:
      “Surely you don’t mean my child’s health should be jeopardized for the sake of XYZ project?”
      “I appreciate your understanding, but I need to work with the timeline provided by the surgeon.”
      Or if they’re being particularly obtuse:
      “I don’t feel comfortable discussing the health of my minor child at work, thanks for understanding.” And walk away.

      As a parent, I am seething. I hope your kiddo sails through with flying colours, OP.

    21. mreasy*

      Your child’s surgery is more important than anything at work could be, unless the project is performing surgery on children. I have no children and I cannot fathom a world in which I pressured a colleague into putting off a medical procedure for a child to help meet a deadline. That is not normal or okay of them.

    22. Please make it stop*

      I had the first of a two part eye surgery last spring the day before everything closed down. The second part ended up being delayed two months due to Covid and the wait was miserable. I absolutely would not take the chance that your child’s surgery could be delayed indefinitely.

      Also, your coworkers suck.

    23. fhgwhgads*

      Better to be inconsiderate of your coworkers than inconsiderate of your kid. They do not appear to deserve extra kindness from you.
      With medically necessary stuff ALWAYS take the earliest slot they have. You don’t want to push it voluntarily and then have it pushed involuntarily and then become a bigger thing than it was.

    24. eeniemeenie*

      So I’m going to giveYou’re not responsible for other people’s feelings about your child’s surgery. Let them be annoyed and judgmental all they like.

      1. eeniemeenie*

        I pressed something weird and it posted while I was typing! I was going to say, so I’m going to give your coworkers the benefit of the doubt. People are inherently selfish. Maybe they are too overwhelmed and stressed to care about the health of a coworker’s child they’d never met – and I understand where they’re coming from, too. But! You are not responsible for their feelings or if they are feeling overworked and burdened. It’s totally okay for you to be unavailable for a limited time frame because your child is going into surgery (even if it can be rescheduled – there’s never a convenient time for surgery). So let your manager sort out the deadlines etc. Not your job.

    25. Anonosaurus*

      This blows my mind. Not getting at you personally, OP, but what kind of culture has been created where people are suggesting that work is more important than the medical needs of a CHILD?!!! I am genuinely shocked.

      I don’t have any children. Several of my coworkers do. If any of their kids needed surgery I wouldn’t dream of even suggesting it should be scheduled around work. Now, I do agree that we childfree staff sometimes get the short end over things like vacation dates/working hours and I have and will continue to push back on that. But medical treatment for a child? Not in the same çategory.

  9. a question*

    This is definitely a mix of professional and personal life. More a personal issue that my professional coworkers are supportive of. I work for a very laid back, family orientated, friendly company. Part of our job we are given time throughout the year to work on philanthropy and helping the local community. It’s not mandatory but you are in no way penalized either; giving back is encouraged. I am trying to not give too many identifying factors.

    While working on huge community project (project A) I found a group of indirect recipients (project B) that are suffering due to a totally different cause. This situation literally fell in my lap when I stumbled across it. I have tried helping all I can. I feel horrible that I can’t solve the situation. There is a lot of red tape to solve project B. Project B is a very very local issue but is directly affected by current national and international events and various fields. It’s just a mess. I’ve done all I can with rallying the local community, my boss has taken to helping me getting some additional outside resources. Everyone tells me they are so proud of me for doing all this work but at the end of the day project B is not solved. Sadly, I (nor my employer) don’t have the know how, ability or resources to do so.

    I guess I’m also conflicted too personally. Anytime I spend money for myself I sit there and think gosh this could really help project B. For instance my family and I didn’t go on vacation this year due to COVID. We decided to continue saving and upgrade our vacation next year – a better hotel, extending the trip, trying things we normally could not afford. I’ve also been saving for 2 years for a fun but expensive hobby item to buy. I can’t begin to tell you the guilt I am feeling since I am close to booking that future vacation and clicking the buy button.

    I’ve talked to my boss about my feelings. Boss said he loves my passion. It’s ok to help others but it’s also ok to treat yourself. While I’m sure my employer is able to claim some deductions from helping on project B, my boss has taken a personal interest as well. He even started volunteering his own time on project B. The company even allocated additional donations to projects A and B. Boss said he is impressed with all I’ve done on project B and still managed to get all my work done. I know I can’t save the world I just feel like it’s one step forward two steps back; project B recipients are still suffering; I’m being selfish for thinking how to spend money I’ve worked hard to save. Anyone else experience something similar?

    Side note FYI my company and bosses are not solely focused on donating to projects A and B. My coworkers have some amazing community projects they are helping as well. I am not being “favored” with all resources. I have contributed my time and resources to other projects too. For some reason project B just really affected me in a way I never thought could.

    1. ladymacdeath*

      I don’t have a similar situation, but I work in the non-profit sector where burn out and running yourself into the ground for the cause is really common. You have to take care of yourself. Take the vacation. Buy the hobby item. You clearly care so much and are working so hard on this. It is incredibly admirable, but some things can’t be solved with just one person. And it isn’t worth the emotional and physical pain to commit yourself so fully sometimes. There are no awards for suffering over your work. Take care of yourself!

      1. a question*

        Thank you for your kind words. Fun thing is I don’t work for a non profit but one of the reasons I accepted an offer at this company is because they believe in helping the surrounding community. It is my dream job and dream working environment. I will need to learn it is ok to voluneer for a cause and not feel guilty in my personal life. Project B recipients is such a small handful of people that I feel like there should be a reachable solution in a timely manner.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      It’s wonderful to be passionate about your community work. It’s not selfish to save up for a nicer vacation or spend money on yourself or your family, either. You know you can’t single handedly create a solution for project B (rationally, at least)! You can’t burn yourself out or devote all of your personal resources to the project. Continue working on it as you are able, you are making a difference already and you’re helping to get more resources allocated to the project (which is necessary, because YOU alone can’t fix it all yourself!).

      1. a question*

        Thank you for responding. Yes I guess I am making a difference, I just feel helpless. I’ve always had this personality where if there is a problem, lets find a solution. I know I can’t solve all the problems of the world (I can certainly try!) but doing this on a smaller scale is my way to give back. I am so frustrated not being able to find a solution. I do need to make sure I take care of myself emotionally, something my boss pointed out. I’m just glad I’m working for a company that does encourage philanthropy.

    3. Colette*

      There are always people suffering while we spend money we don’t strictly have to spend. People suffer from hunger, war, natural disasters, and other horrible situations.

      At the same time, it’s OK to do things that will help you recharge and be able to help in the future.

      It’s hard to balance the two, but what you’ve done (raising awareness, getting others involved, etc.) is likely to help more than giving up your vacation money or money on a hobby you enjoy.

      1. a question*

        Thank you for your encouragment. I’ve always volunteered. Even as a child I was taught about giving to others is a wonderful selfless opportunity. I’m fortunate to have a great family, friends and support system. It appears project B recipents don’t. While anyone could end up in Project B’s situation, I most likely won’t due to my lifestyle. I have volunteered for projects similar to Project B, but I guess seeing it on a local level effected me in a way I didn’t think it would.

    4. Artemesia*

      Need is an unfillable hole. You could live in a shack and give all and still hardly make a dent. Do what you can throughout your life — that doesn’t mean you can’t also do nice things. I understand your impulse though. We couldn’t travel this year and had to bag a long planned trip to Europe with our grandchild. That meant we had a lump of unspent money. We used it to upgrade out kitchen by installing an induction cooktop and I have used the other half of it to finish up 10 projects for teachers in our community on Donorschoose.org and have been giving small amounts to key political races all over the country — house and senate races that seem winnable with resources.

      1. a question*

        I love how you treated yourself and helped others too! It is difficult. As I said in other comments Project B’s recipients is only a handful of people. We could scrape together the (somehow) the money needed to get the ball rolling, but with all the red tape “handing” the money over might cause more harm than good in the long run. Like I said It’s A Mess. I just feel helpless but everyone’s comments have been encouraging with time, resources and personal issues.

      2. a question*

        I love how you treated yourself and supported other causes you believe in. I just feel so helpless. We could easily scrape together some funds to get the ball rolling to solve Project B, but with all the red tape’s stipulations, the funds might do more harm than good in the long run. I think the “easily scrape together some funds” is where I am feeling guilty spending personal funds. I do plan to try to save for the hobby purchase and upgraded vacation it’s just gives me a greedy feeling. Everyone’s support and encouragement has made me realize that at least I am bringing some notice to an important cause.

    5. valentine*

      You assigned yourself not just B, but solving it. Can that be done in your lifetime? Who has the power and resources? Neither you nor your employer. There must be a group or groups working with the affected people toward benchmarks on the way to a solution. Perhaps you could volunteer with them. But I think you need to dial this way back and perhaps put your efforts elsewhere because you’re so close that it’s possibly hindering you. You might delve into the source of your guilt and remove yourself from B until you can detach and stop feeling you should give anything you can.

      1. a question*

        I totally agree with what you are saying. Project A used to encompass Project B. A still helps B but A got so big that they refocused their efforts. No one seems to have picked up Project B; it got lost in the shuffle. I am frustrated that Project B’s recipients is a handful of people. I feel like it should be able to be solved but as you said it’s not a one person job. To answer your question, can it be solved in my lifetime… on a local community level, yes it can! I honestly don’t think it should take more than a few years. Just there is a lot of red tape to the situation. Finding a solution to get to the finish line without harming the little aid that Project B recipients get (and depend on) is the challenge

        1. Reba*

          Yes, I got that “assigned yourself” vibe too. You are doing good by working on B. You are not personally responsible for solving Project B. You can help as much as you can reasonably help; depriving yourself or treating yourself doesn’t really bear on B. Try to focus on what good you are doing with B, not guilt for what remains undone!

          1. a question*

            Thank you! It’s a handful of people effected by Project B. I started working on this thinking with such a small group of recipients this would something easy to solve with some efforts. I misjudged.

    6. Lizy*

      That’s hard. I’m sorry.

      You have to have stuff/things/time for yourself. Think of it this way – you simply can’t help if you’re stretched too thin, regardless of if it’s money or time or resources. You will be a better help to them if you disconnect even just a little and take care of yourself.

      Just because people are struggling doesn’t mean you don’t deserve your hobby item or vacation! Buy it and take it, and enjoy them both.

    7. Veronica*

      I set aside a certain percent of my income and my time to volunteer or donate each year. Then when I see a need or get asked for money I don’t feel as bad saying no because I have a budget that I’m already spending on this type of need. Have a time and money budget is also helpful because it makes me sit down and think about where am I spending my resources.

      1. a question*

        that’s a great idea! This started as a work project but spilled over into my personal time.

      2. MissGirl*

        I really agree with this. Set an amount of time and money each week you’re able and willing to do without losing yourself or burning out. Then when the guilt starts to creep in, simply say to yourself, “that’s not in my budget.”

      3. Cedrus Libani*

        Having a budget is lovely. It’s like having boundaries, but for money. Yeah, I know that I could give everything away, down to my last dollar, and still there would be people who need that last dollar more than I do. That can’t be my standard. I have to decide what I’m willing to give – somewhere between nothing and everything.

        I personally have been inspired by the Effective Altruism concept of tithing. That’s the 10% of your income which historically would go to the church. An ordinary human can spare 10% of their income for the general improvement of society. It’s non-trivial, but not a crushing burden either. I’ve been ticking up at 1% per year (am at 6%) because I’m a coward who would like to buy a house, but I’m still doing more than is “normal”.

        1. Veronica*

          I also started doing this for my time because I felt like I wasn’t engaged in my community enough. I started mentoring at my local community college which is a low monthly time commitment. One benefit of keeping track of my time is I realize I volunteer my time for a lot of things that are of a benefit to me, like repairing buildings at the summer camp my kids attend, and not enough on things that are not a direct benefit to me.

        2. Spencer Hastings*

          Yes, I came here to say this too! There’s a post by Scott Alexander (slatestarcodex) that talks about how it’s easy to feel like you owe an “infinite debt” to a person, or a cause, or whatever, and to go into a guilt spiral about not doing enough, but setting a limit like that makes it manageable to do something tangible without burning out on it.

          1. a question*

            that’s exactly how I feel! I feel like even setting smaller goals is taking forever to accomplish all while I’m enjoying summer nights out and fun shopping.

    8. Mill Miker*

      If it helps at all, it sounds like you’re already doing more for project B than almost anyone else. More than your fair share anyway. That’s anything but selfish.

      1. a question*

        Thank you. I just hate seeing someone suffer when I know I can do something about it. I’m not curing (for instance) cancer. I’m trying to help a group of people that no matter how many times this cause has knocked them down, they still have hope that Project B will have a solution. I just want them to know that our little community is there for them. They don’t have to struggle through things alone. This only affects a handful of people in our community.

    9. Anono-me*

      When someone is suffering, being ‘seen’ is a powerful gift.

      Yes, I am sure that the first preference of the people in group B would be to have their actual problems resolved; but don’t underestimate the value of you as an outsider validating and acknowledging the suckyness of a situation.

    10. Web Crawler*

      I just wanted to say that I feel this- I’ve burned myself out too many times while trying to solve the world’s problems. One thing that’s been helping me is therapy- it’s nice to have another person who can help me figure out boundaries and how to volunteer without giving everything I have.

    11. JustMePatrick*

      Take care of your self. Don’t beat you’re self up because you can’t find the solution to B. If anything taking a few days off to get your mind off “work” may very well help you to find the solution you’re looking for. Refreshed mind, fresh ideas.

  10. LGC*

    …I have ALL the issues!

    Main one is that I’m actually advocating for a couple of employees (we’ll call them Michelle and Wakeen). I talked to my direct boss Lucinda about them, and she agrees that they’re both ready to move up.

    The problem is that we can’t give them formal promotions right now (not because of Miss Rona, because we lost a major contract). I do want to start delegating some things to them and preparing them (and in fact I’ve done a bit), but I don’t want to take advantage of them. Any advice?

    1. LGC*

      Extra info: Michelle and Wakeen are individual contributors with little management experience (so like they do need management coaching), and I’m a mid-level supervisor (with little mentoring experience). I do worry about coming off like I’m playing favorites.

    2. Rachel in NYC*

      Could you talk to them? Let them know that you and L have discussed that the ultimate plan is to move them up but right now the company isn’t in the position to do that. However, you want to make sure when the company is ready that M and W are ready- and if they are okay with that you would start delegating and training them on some things now.

      I would imagining doing that would require some of their current workload would need to be done by someone else so before you go to them, I’d have a plan for that- as well as a solid plan with L about when M and W will move up (as long as they are successful with this work). So this doesn’t become a promise that never happens.

      1. LGC*

        I’ve talked a bit to them! The problem is that the company is a bit weird about promotions (that is, I don’t know if they would set a timeline or make guarantees).

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      I would avoid giving them the impression that they will eventually be promoted, unless it’s something over which you have total control. I mean, don’t tell them they WON’T be promoted, but don’t say “we’re going to make this happen when we can.” It can be disheartening to hear the whole “jam tomorrow” thing.

      Do you know for a fact that Michelle and Wakeen WANT a promotion? Would a promotion in their case be to a position that requires new skills (e.g., moving into a management role)? If that’s the case, it might be a more complicated issue than just promoting them as a reward for good work. It might be good to sit down with each of them and have a career development chat to find out what their goals are. If it seems like they’d be interested in the next step you have in mind, you can discuss what has to happen for that to be possible. Let them know what THEY need to do to make it happen, and then let them know the other deciding factors (e.g., “promoting anyone in our department will require approval from HR and room in the budget”). If there are gaps in their experience or knowledge that it would be helpful to fill before they are promoted, now is a good time to do that. I would say that training, especially, is a good thing to do now: it’s something that isn’t asking them to take on more work without a corresponding bump in pay or title, but is helping them develop professionally so they can be ready for a new role when a new role is ready for them. If giving them certain assignments/projects is something that will be helpful to prepare them, make sure you keep an eye on their overall workload and maybe offload less-advanced tasks to other people to free them up.

      1. LGC*

        (I was going to reply yesterday afternoon, but my phone refreshed itself. I am now downloading ad-blocking software because this is ridiculous.)

        So, to answer your first question: Michelle explicitly expressed interest in supervising – first, to my other boss Jane and Lucinda, and then to me. Wakeen hasn’t expressed as direct interest in taking a supervisory role, but he has been interested in project management – and in my company, that’s part of the supervisory role. (It doesn’t seem like he’s opposed to supervising, just that his interests are primarily project management.)

        You’re right that I should do more training, although I’m not sure if I can do it myself. And I’m not sure if I could get my company to go in on it, although I’m trying!

    4. CC*

      I’ve found transparency to be best. Something like, “I think you’re great, and I’d like to give you the opportunity to take on more responsibility. I could see you moving into X role, but it’s not possible right now due to [[reasons]], and I can’t promise anything at this point. But there are still ways for you to gain experience that will help you grow into X role/help you grow in your career. I was hoping to be able to have you take on a few new projects like [[managing an intern or contractor/managing a bigger budget than they have in the past/whatever makes sense in your context]]. How would you feel about that?”

      Then listen to what they say! Chances are they’ll be excited to dip their toes in. And really, before you promote someone it’s always good to give them a few stretch projects like what they’d have in their new role, but with you more heavily involved/playing a bigger coaching role. It gives them a safe space to learn when the stakes are lower.

      If they’re really resistant — like “I’m not doing that until I have the title and salary to match” — well, I’d have real questions about their judgement and expectations about how promotions work. But you can also frame it as “this is a way for you to demonstrate to [[company]] that you’re ready to step in to the new role,” or “this will really help both of us get a feel of whether the new role would be the right fit — so you’re set up to succeed.”

      1. Chaordic One*

        I wouldn’t worry about them being resistant, but certainly disappointed. This might be the time for you, LGC, to acknowledge that you’re not in a position to offer them that next step up right now, and since you’re not you should seriously consider supporting them by telling them that if they feel the need to move on to that step elsewhere, you’ll be happy to be be a good reference for them if they feel the need to try for greener pastures. Then be that good reference if called upon.

  11. Please just give me raise, I don't want a giftcard*

    TDLR: How would you feel about your company mailing you little gifts periodically? What if they were not always equally distributed, ie, parents got gifts when non-parents didn’t? Salaries tend to be just below market rate and benefits, working conditions, etc. are good.

    Long version: I’ve volunteered to be on the new “Fun Committee” for my org, thinking that its goal was planning virtual events and activities while we all work from home. We’ve had our first couple of meetings and while events and parties are a major part of the committee, everyone is really interested in sending out periodic care packages. For example, with school starting again, they want to give parents a coffee mug and gift card or something similar. This is not the only example of singling out various group to send care packages to.
    This sets off my “ick” alarm because:
    – Could be seen as preferential treatment
    – Would it be well received? I would appreciate the thought but wonder why my org was wasting money giving me a mug when I really want either cash or recognition for my work, not my life circumstances
    – A much as I love and support the USPS, the shipping costs of sending out candy, mugs, etc. makes me feel like its a poor investment overall

    But I am the only one on the committee to feel this way. We tend to be a very “we’re a family!” type org so they see it as being supportive of our coworkers.
    (I should say that the org has handled COVID beautifully and as far as I know, everyone who has needed “real” support has gotten it, such as schedule flexibility and time off. It’s a good place to work and no one feels cheated by our compensation, but we are slightly below market level. I should also say that I’m a chronic stick-in-the-mud.)

    1. topscallop*

      I wouldn’t love it if I found out parents were getting gifts and non-parents weren’t. Especially because at my company, the parents tend to be more senior employees who are making more money than the non-parents, who are younger. I also would not want a coffee mug. A gift card to uber eats or something of that nature, offered to everyone, would be a nice gesture.

      This may not be relevant for your company, but mine is just starting to come around on making WFH more comfortable for people by allowing them to get reimbursed for a monitor and mouse, or get them from our office (when we shut down the office, most people only took home their laptops). We have a wellness program that previously gave steep discounts on gym memberships and placed fresh fruit in the office kitchen every day – obviously these are now not happening, so they’re exploring whether that $ can go toward office chairs for WFH. Maybe there’s something like that you could explore?

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        And this goes to show that you really can’t win. I try to steer clear of many of the restaurant delivery aggregators because they mean the restaurant gets less money from my order, and many of them treat their employees (or “contractors” who should be classified as employees) terribly. Instead I try to order directly from restaurants whenever possible. Not sure if uber eats is among the bad ones in terms of fees to the restaurant, but I would be kind of irritated to get a gift card to them. Uber in general is not a company I want to support – see the recent kerfuffle in California over classification of employees.

        Some people would object to Amazon gift cards on similar grounds. Cash is best.

        1. topscallop*

          LOL it doesn’t have to be Uber Eats specifically – it was an example of something that most people have access to. I suppose if you wanted to do restaurant gift cards you could offer them to a local restaurant group. But then you run the risk that some people can’t eat at those places due to dietary restrictions or religious reasons or whatever, or they just don’t like that type of food. Cash is easiest, for sure. I got a “spot bonus” once and the company gave it to me on a Visa giftcard. Which may have some fees associated too, I’m not sure.

        2. Nesprin*

          Eh, If its cash, it gets subsumed into my household budget. If its a gift card for something as easy/ubiquitious as uber eats, I don’t have to make dinner one night. I’d infinitely prefer the latter as otherwise that 50$ is going towards standard expenses.

    2. Not for Me!*

      Money. Benefits. Time off. Yes to all three. Mug…meh. Gift card…maybe (but I’m picky – don’t give me Starbucks, I don’t drink coffee). For cost of mug + gift card + shipping, just email EVERYONE a link to a loaded gift card for “COVID supplies.” I’m kind of a stick-in-the mud, too, and it would annoy me to no end that a company who doesn’t pay market wages would spend money to ship me some crap I don’t want.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Why are parents getting gifts and non-parents aren’t? I could sort of understand if parents got different gifts from non-parents (but even that’s opening up a can of worms), but non-parents getting no gifts? Why?

      For example, with school starting again, they want to give parents a coffee mug and gift card or something similar. This is not the only example of singling out various group to send care packages to.

      Is there anything special about coffee mugs and gift cards that would be useless to a non-parent?

      – Could be seen as preferential treatment

      Yes. It is preferential treatment and disgusting.

      – Would it be well received? I would appreciate the thought but wonder why my org was wasting money giving me a mug when I really want either cash or recognition for my work, not my life circumstances

      I would hope not, if it’s gifts for some employees and not for others.

      Cash is better. Pay people better. Stop with the gift cards.

      – A much as I love and support the USPS, the shipping costs of sending out candy, mugs, etc. makes me feel like its a poor investment overall

      I agree.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yeah, it would be one thing if what the parents were getting were actual useful benefits like discounts on childcare. But… a mug? What makes parents more in need of a mug than other employees?

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I’ll let others deal with the actual questions here, but I am 99% sure no one in the working world wants another mug. The only exception might be if there’s something incredibly, unusually awesome about it (which would mean tailored specifically to them, which doesn’t sound like it would be the case here). But generally, no one wants another mug.

      2. Emilitron*

        Especially not while I’m working from home! At my workplace we have a culture of using vendor-freebie mugs that show off what subfield your specialty is in, it’s actually kind of fun in a broad llama grooming meeting to be able to identify your llama-hooves expert by their mug. So having a selection of mugs to choose which I take to one meeting vs another is one of my private entertainments. But in my HOUSE? no.

      3. WellRed*

        I can’t fit another mug in my mug cupboard! But I guess that don’t matter because only parents get mugs. Because mugs somehow help with back to school. /s

        1. SarahKay*

          I smash my unwanted freebie mugs and use them to line the bottom of plant pots to help with drainage. Mug handles, in pairs, are also useful for putting under plant pots to raise them up slightly from the saucer/base.
          Smashing a mug is also remarkably satisfying if I’m having a bad day. Of course, since I’m not a parent I won’t get a mug to smash to remove the irritation of not getting a mug….

        2. MacGillicuddy*

          All the freebie mugs in my cupboard are from companies that no longer exist. My family refers to each one as “ Memorial Mug”.
          One mug in particular no longer has the logo – it wore off rather quickly. That particular company ALWAYS did everything on the cheap (including salaries) so it wasn’t a surprise that they went to some fly-by-night printers to get the mugs made. That one is called “The Cheapo Mug”.

      1. CTT*

        aaaaand I accidentally hit enter before I could get the rest of my thought out. Either do something like a small gift card pick-me-up for everyone, an actual monetary benefit, or don’t do it at all. Stuff is okay occasionally (I still have a blanket I got from work almost 10 years ago) but the cost of mailing it will leave people thinking “if they’re willing to spend that much money, I would have rather gotten a check.”

    6. AndersonDarling*

      Yeah, sending out items to just parents or sending different items to parents and non-parents is icky. It is showing that parenting is all the company sees of them. And it is especially problematic is only moms are receiving gifts while dads are not, that will lay the foundation for discrimination claims if any other fishy things go on.
      As far as spending money on gifts instead of raises…these things are budgeted differently. The gifts are used to keep employee engagement up while a raise only comes once a year. It’s really two different things.
      Honestly, I’d be happy receiving a gift box with office supplies like sticky notes, notepads, pens, and maybe a silly paperweight or cozy socks. I have SO MANY coffee mugs and sports bottles.

      1. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

        Even though they are budgeted differently, I don’t think that changes the reaction from employees. I work in a profession that has an Appreciation Week, and my org always sends out some kind of gift (recently, mugs!) during Profession Appreciation Week. Maybe some appreciate the gesture, but I hear from many more who don’t. Even if they understand about the budgeting, they would rather the time and energy that went into choosing the mugs or flugelhorns or whatever would instead go into figuring out how the budget can be fixed to address our very real, very known, oft-discussed-but-never-addressed salary issues. The feeling is, how much do you really appreciate us if you don’t allocate time and resources all year in figuring out how to truly support us?
        So, I think the answer to your question might lie in whether your organization does a good job overall of supporting staff. That impacts whether the gifts come off as nice or tone-deaf. (But all staff, all at the same time, unless there’s a special project being recognized. I, parent, emphatically DO NOT want to get something non-parents are getting. My spouse can get me Parent’s Day gifts.)

          1. Jaid*

            LOL! The only things they gave out were pencils and stickers, even then. It was just an excuse to have a cookout and play silly games.

            Anyway, I’m good. Besides, I use a big ass Thermos at work since I avoid the breakroom and a thermal carafe/Chinese teacup at home.

    7. Elliott*

      It would bother me if I found out that some people were receiving gifts and others weren’t. I also wonder how the committee would avoid leaving someone out by mistake, since not everyone shares as much personal information at work.

      As for getting small gifts in general, I don’t mind the idea in theory, but I think my feelings would be influenced by how well the workplace was handling things overall, and how good a job they were doing at supporting employees in more meaningful ways.

    8. Artemesia*

      I can see providing funds for parents specifically to help upgrade home office for kids learning from home i.e. very home school specific, but parents have no more need for a mug than non parents.

      2. Black Horse Dancing*

        Nope. If you upgrade the home offices, do it for all. Someone could just as easily point up there are numerous resources for kids getting online/getting assistance, etc. and non parents/adults don’t have access to those resources.

    9. Ann Perkins*

      An alternative suggestion you can bring to the group: rather than doing gifts based on group, make it seasonal and send to everyone. Send fall scented candles as fall approaches, hot chocolate sets for winter, flower seeds for spring, stuff like that so that nobody gets left out. Of course food and consumables are always good. Then if someone is going through an individual circumstance that they feel warrants a care package like a childbirth or family death they could send flowers or meal gift cards or something like that.

      2. pancakes*

        I don’t agree food and consumables are always good coming from an employer. I’d much rather have a larger paycheck, even if only by a few dollars per year, than corny seasonal gifts.

    10. Cabin in the Woods*

      I agree with your concerns about preferential treatment and also just being a waste of money. I don’t like receiving tchotchkes from work. It feels like lip service and only adds to the junk in my house. I agree with another commenter than gift cards for everyone would be a good alternative if the group really wants to focus on giving a gift rather than providing some other kind of support.

    11. Riley*

      I would be annoyed if parents got a gift and non-parents didn’t. Especially when the gift is something everyone can use — it doesn’t make sense why some people are excluded.

      Also, I wouldn’t want a mug. Everyone already has one and it’s kind of a waste of money. I know people above mentioned avoiding specific kinds of gift cards but someone will be picky no matter what you get. A good generic option is a SkipTheDishes or Postmates virtual gift card, then anyone who has an objection to using it can opt out. I think most people would be happy to get a $50 dinner on their company.

    12. sarah grace*

      It makes me out of step with what commenters generally say here, but as long as you aren’t pausing bonuses / promotions / etc., I don’t see anything wrong with sending out Visa giftcards or mugs to everyone. Like is it going to thrill all of the recipients? Probably not. But is it going to offend anyone? No. Not in the real world, outside of this website. It’s lovely to say oh, give people money / time off / benefits / etc., but that’s almost certainly outside of the scope of your committee and also, a totally different thing to consider.

      I mean, it WILL offend people if you only do it to parents. But if you send everyone a gift card (and I would recommend the Visa giftcards, which are super easy to find and easier to use) literally the only people who will complain about it are people who would complain anyway.

      1. Rachel the Admin*

        Agreed – our new CEO just did the “small anything gift cards for everyone” thing. It just makes more sense.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        It’s not that a mug will offend anyone — it’s that if you genuinely want to do something thoughtful that people will enjoy, there are better choices. If you want to send something a lot of people will toss, go with a mug. But that’s not their intent, presumably. (Clearly I am very anti-mug today — and all days — but it’s just a thoughtless, generic gift that few people will actively appreciate, when they want to do something morale-boosting.)

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I agree, but also: is there literally anything (in the $10/pp range) that would actually feel thoughtful to, say, at least 40% of the people receiving it? I can’t think of anything, including a $10 check.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Probably not! Which is maybe a reason not to do it — if your budget won’t produce the effect you want, it makes sense to change the plan.

    13. ...*

      Honestly it wouldn’t bother me at all unless it was like an extra paycheck or something. I may give it a passing thought but ultimately, who cares? Like you gave a parent an extra cup or something? Non issue for me

    14. Reality Biting*

      I agree with others here about the parent vs. non-parent issue. However you mentioned “This is not the only example of singling out various group to send care packages to.” So it sounds like it’s already an established pattern. I’m curious to know how it’s been received before.

      1. JustaTech*

        I just found out yesterday from an offhand comment by someone in the “fun” committee that some departments have been sending care packages (and mine has not), and while that’s kind of annoying I filed it away in the “different departments have different budgets”.

        But singling out groups to get stuff (even if it’s not stuff they necessarily want or can use) based on non-work characteristics? Yeah, not cool.

    15. Oxford Comma*

      If morale is decent, then something sent to all the employees would be fine. I personally do not need any more mugs or stickers or low grade swag. A gift card would be nice.

      But if I found out my employer was only sending something to parents and not to all employees, I would be annoyed and it would be an annoyance that would stick with me for years.

    16. Oh No She Di'int*

      I know this wasn’t your main question, but I’ve never understood the whole “I’d rather have a raise instead of a pizza party” gripe. Do people really think that? It seems like 3 nanoseconds of calculation would tell you that those aren’t equivalent things. I personally don’t hold it against a company that they might not have an extra tens of thousands (or millions) of dollars to commit themselves to raising everyone’s salaries (a commitment that would be ongoing indefinitely into the future), but may have an extra 200 bucks lying around and would like to do something nice for people with it. How do people see those as interchangeable? Do people really not know how corporate finances work?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I think you only see that getting said when people already feel underpaid, overworked, and/or under-supported. In that context, it feels like “if you genuinely care, there are more important places to put your energy, but you’re not doing that … and do you really think throwing $200 at pizza will address the morale deficits of these significant issues?”

        And frankly, no, usually companies don’t think pizza will address the other things; they just think it’s a nice thing to do, which it is. But against that backdrop, it can rankle.

        1. Lora*

          THIS.

          Especially when the people in question are very capable of doing the math to realize that their 80 hour workweek is translating into 2X revenue…but their raise is still 2.5%.

          From a corporate finance perspective – the employees putting in 70-80 hour workweeks at Site A may not realize that the revenue is needed to finance a renovation/upgrade of a dangerously decrepit facility at Site B, or because management is planning an acquisition, or because the hedge funds based on South American money markets aren’t doing so hot, etc. and this is what a large international corporation does: use a high performing asset to offset the risks and costs of the lower performing assets as a stopgap measure to avoid site closures, mass layoffs etc. There may very literally not BE money for raises, after all the liabilities of a low performing asset are paid out, but it still sucks to be the person putting in 80 hour work weeks and the only thanks you get is two pieces of pizza and a lukewarm soda.

          Which is why you should never feel bad for an instant about quitting a job that sucks or not being able to put in extraordinary effort in exchange for nothing very much. If the high-performing asset only produced 110% instead of 130%, the corporate masters will just figure out another way to bail out the asset that is only producing 80%. Yelling at people to work harder in exchange for pizza is just a sort of easy-lazy way to try to get that extra few %.

          To OP’s point, anyway: my employer sent me a big gift box of junk food (candies, chips, pretzels, stuff like that) to support everyone through these troubling times or however you want to call it. Probably spent $50/employee. I don’t eat junk food, so gave it to a friend, who gave it to her kids, because she doesn’t do junk food either. I honestly didn’t notice that I hadn’t received one until my boss asked if I received it, and I replied I just assumed they forgot me. “No, you should have gotten one!” OK, well. He was very fussed that I got the dumb box of junk food which I wasn’t going to eat.

          I guess I would rather have had the $50, if that’s the budget. What we really NEEDED was a better VPN system so all the people working from home weren’t locked out of the server all the time because of the crummy cheap security app they wanted us to use. For the $700,000 -$800,000 they probably spent on gift boxes of junk food, they could have bought a decent enterprise VPN.

          1. I don't want a mug (op but I'm not scrolling up to see what I named myself this morning)*

            Yes! If I had my say, the ~$300 that might go out toward sending our small staff Halloween candy this October would go toward a letter folding machine, or some similar thing to improve office life (despite all of us working from home for the foreseeable future). Its not that I think $300 will make a dent in the “give everyone a raise” fund, its that I can hate this way of spending it and would rather they skipped it/saved it up for something actually helpful.

        2. Oh No She Di'int*

          Yeah, this clarifies it. In some ways I guess I’ve always been lucky to have worked in places where the working conditions were at least decent if not fabulous. In those contexts, when you get a pizza party [or whatever other minor perk] it never occurs to anyone what they would have rather had; it’s just another nice thing that happened at work. At least that’s been my experience. But I can see how a different context could evoke a completely different reaction.

    17. Justme, the OG*

      I would hate this. As a parent, I don’t really want a coffee mug and gift card. Just support and better pay.

    18. ThinMint*

      I was part of a fun committee. For our annual winter party, they spent $50 at the dollar store and wrapped up all the gifts and then we did a white elephant exchange. It was the biggest waste of money ever and we all just went home with crap none of us wanted. Blerg.

      I wouldn’t want to be mailed gifts periodically. Those add up and I’d always think about the other items we could have used that money on.

    19. Veronica*

      If you really want to do something for parents, send them school supplies tailored to their schools supply lists. Or better yet, set up a request so people can get resupplies of all the items they are running low on like pens, paper, sticky notes.

    20. ExcelJedi*

      No. No. No.

      It would be a bad enough idea if you were sending out school themed things for parents only (lunchboxes or first day of school photo props? I don’t know what parents would actually want), but I’d be pissed if I heard that parents were getting coffee mugs and starbucks gift cards when I wasn’t, since I AM a coffee drinker. It’s not even about the physcial thing (I have too many mugs already! I’d be just as annoyed to get it!), it’s about feeling forgotten or left out.

      You’re not supporting your team or collaboration when you do things for only a portion of them with no business-related reason for partitioning them.

    21. Absurda*

      The only way singling out one group for a gift would be appropriate was if they were rotating groups. So, maybe one group gets gifts this quarter but the other group gets similar gifts next quarter. At the end of the year everyone should have received equal gifts.

      The sad reality is that in many large organizations (like where I work) managers and directors simply don’t have any control over raises, bonuses, benefits, etc. It’s up to the very highest levels if raises or bonuses are available and if they decide not, then lower level managers’ hands are tied. They may, though, have a budget for gifts, team activities, company swag, etc. So that’s really all they have to work with. Am Ex or Visa gift cards tend to go over well.

    22. PollyQ*

      no one feels cheated by our compensation

      I would not bet on that. Maybe most people are OK with it, but I can pretty much guarantee that there are some people who are unhappy with it. I can definitely guarantee that almost everyone would be happy to be making more.

      Giving gifts only to parents is both preferential, and thus likely leave non-parents a little miffed, and also probably not something parents will be that impressed by. Does anyone need another mug in their life right now? And it sounds like the GC would be more of a token amount than something that would really affect their quality of life.

      IDK if you can convince your colleagues, but I would scrap this entire plan, and use the savings to either improve everyone’s work conditions, email everyone a gift card, or put the money towards salaries or bonuses.

    23. Partly Cloudy*

      All else aside, there are likely to be tax implications of these gifts, so either the employees will have to pay taxes on tchotchkes they didn’t want in the first place or the company would need to gross them up, thereby increasing the cost of this project. And creating extra work for payroll. So if you do decide to go with gifts, PLEASE loop in your payroll peeps BEFORE doing anything so you can fully understand the impact from a nuts-and-bolts perspective of taxes and administration.

      Yes, de minimis gifts are tax exempt, but the IRS has a pretty specific definition of “de minimis” and it’s not always what people think it is.

      Having said all that, I’d rather spend an hour at the end of the day playing virtual bingo with my teammates than get a mug. For example.

    24. Please just give me raise, I don't want a giftcard*

      Thanks everyone! I’m feeling extremely validated. I’ll do what I can to slow this down and get the gifts to be universal and virtually distributed (I don’t think there’s any chance of them being given up completely). Cross your fingers for me!

      1. Please just give me raise, I don't want a giftcard*

        Oh, and the answer the extremely valid question of “why parents?”:
        Virtual learning, I guess? Im not a parent but we have just under 50 people and are a very social org, so everyone knows everybody and many parents have expressed how challenging it is to work from home and manage their kids home schooling. And it does sound challenging! I would not want to be in their shoes. But I agree with everyone that a coffee gift card won’t actually help and not giving the gift to everyone would be super weird.

    25. Animal worker*

      I haven’t had time to read the already 50 comments, but I can share an experience I had with an “Employee incentive and motivation committee” I chaired years ago. We got funding for a program we called Random Acts of Kindness. Basically four times a year we did something (generally food related) for the staff. Two of these were for the staff that happened to be working that day, so kind of luck of the draw if you were there for it (we are in an industry that works 7 days/week so many with weekday days off). These were things like donuts or ice cream brought around to all the areas. The other two were intentionally for everyone, working or not, and were more coupon oriented – pizza gift card, pack of ‘treat coupons’ for at the zoo (icee, ice cream, soda, etc.). This way everyone got some, and the ones that everyone didn’t get were still fairly distributed to all working that day. I think if something were sent to only some staff and not others it would have had a reverse impact on morale.

    26. Anax*

      If your org is really insistent on giving gifts – My team did this last year, and delegated managers to select a small gift (~ $10) for each of their subordinates. Each manager normally has 2-3 subordinates, so that meant there were a lot of inside jokes and gifts which were actually appreciated – coffee for the coffee junkie, a funny costume wig for the Halloween fanatic, etc.

      I thought that was a better way to handle things than impersonal mugs and t-shirts, and everyone seemed pretty happy; we were actually having an “appreciation day” for our many remote team-members, since even in 2019, we were split across several national offices.

    27. Dancing Otter*

      It was nice when the company arranged for a birthday cake AT the office, so people would see it and say, “Happy birthday, Otter.” (Not sure how that would work now.) Flowers after surgery were sweet, but unless your employees are a sickly lot, probably not widely applicable.
      Bringing in dinner when the team had to work late, kind of standard, right?
      December holiday package shipped to my home? Nice thought, but….
      Random junk during the year? Please don’t bother. I don’t want to have to pretend to be grateful.
      Based on non-work characteristics such as parenthood? Steam coming out my ears!!!

      All else aside, what would they do for parents who have lost a child? Pretend the child never existed, and upset the grieving parents? Include them anyway, and remind them of their loss? Talk about d@@ned if you do and d@@ned if you don’t.

  12. Secret Agent*

    Recommendations from the crowd about how to start an *anonymous* salary survey via a Google Sheet, or similar, and disseminate it to the entire company without being traced? I don’t want to be “found out”, but I think it’s important for me to try to organize my coworkers.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think a rando who doesn’t work at Google can find out what personal (non G-Suite) Gmail account created a particular Google Form, but if you want to be extra safe, create another Gmail account that isn’t yours, and use that new account to create the Google Form.

    2. Sled Dog Mama*

      Also you could use good old fashioned paper to hand out the details to access the sheet, printout some business card sized slips and hand a few to the people you know would be interested/participate and have them hand them to people they know, only rule don’t tell who you got the info from or who you gave it to.

    3. Rachel the Admin*

      The AFL-CIO has extraordinary resources around this. And your employer could get into serious legal trouble over union-busting.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Try a survey tool like surveymonkey or qualtrics.
      The surveys are anonymous, but you’d still have to have a way to get the link out to all the employees.

  13. Jellyfish*

    Any practical suggestions on dealing with impostor syndrome? Alison has posted on it before, but I always go back to the question where a woman kept claiming impostor syndrome when she really just sucked at her job. Maybe my coworkers are all objectively better and smarter than me, and that’s okay, but it’d be nice to go to work without this constant mental barrage telling me that I’ll never succeed and everyone secretly despises me.

    If I could get out of my own head, it would be better for everyone. I’d be more confident and better at both innovating and performing my usual tasks well. I’m just not sure how to actually do that.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is there someone relatively objective you can talk to about it? Not a co-worker but someone who still works at your workplace? Or a professional contact (not friend) who works in a similar industry but not at your workplace?

      I think in general (obviously woman kept claiming impostor syndrome when she really just sucked at her job is an exception) most people who have imposter syndrome are actually better than they think, and most people who think they’re amazing are actually showing the Dunning-Kruger effect.

      That said, how does your actual manager evaluate your performance? What do your performance reviews say?

      1. Jellyfish*

        My last performance review was quite good, which is why I’m pretty sure this is impostor syndrome rather than me being completely terrible.
        My boss is largely hands off. It’s nice in some ways, and I have a lot of freedom and flexibility. That also makes me inclined to freak out if I try something new though, as I don’t get much feedback unless I actively seek it out.

    2. Amy Sly*

      Start documenting your procedures and institutional knowledge. One, it’s probably never been done for your role, or if it has, the documentation is years out of date. Two, the act of pulling all that together and getting it down will demonstrate to yourself how much you do actually know about what you are doing.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Love this, and it has the bonus of being a really tangible thing you can point to when it comes time to ask for a raise.

        1. Amy Sly*

          Yep.

          And if it turns out that you do have important gaps in your knowledge, they will turn into “known unknowns” that you can find the answers to. You can then ask about them as “I’m trying to clarify this so my documentation is accurate” instead of having the embarrassment of asking “Can you tell me about something I’m supposed to know already?”

      2. Jellyfish*

        That’s a good idea! I’m the first person to ever have this specific position, although there are similar ones in the organization, so I don’t have a pre-established model to follow.

    3. Hotdog not dog*

      Maybe start by identifying one or two things you do well. Give yourself full credit, and give some thought to how you can build on that foundation. In my first management job, I was sure my whole team hated me and could see that I didn’t know what I was doing, but I also knew that I’m a good listener. I spent time with each person and heard their concerns. Over time, I learned the things I needed to know and was able to build trust with my team. They knew that I wasn’t a genius, but they also knew I’d give them my best efforts.

    4. Nessun*

      What helped me was an open conversation with a more senior level colleague who I greatly respect. I don’t know if you have that kind of relationship with a role model or mentor at work, but talking openly about my fears (and discussing my wishes to improve both my attitude and my skills) was very good for me. My mentor even admitted she sometimes feels the same, and could share time she’s made a mistake and how she handled it with our boss, to help me realize its not just me, these feelings can strike us all at times. I felt much better knowing everyone can experience that self-doubt, even someone I greatly respect. It also helped to discuss strategies to address mistakes and own good work.

    5. Chronic Overthinker*

      Jellyfish, I am in the same boat, especially if I make mistakes. Usually what I do to boost my confidence is list my accomplishments for the past week or two. Did you get praise from the boss on something? Did you finish work ahead of a deadline? Did you send out a successful fax or create something that the boss or co-workers liked? Pat yourself on the back for the small stuff and realize that every day is different and comes with it’s own challenges. Also, try to reach out to your supervisor and talk with them as an informal 1 on 1. They can usually confirm or deny issues you may or may not have! Good luck and keep your chin up!

    6. buzzbuzzbeepbeep*

      I find it helps to sit down and think about what you feel you are actually good at. Then try to identify times where someone else has acknowledged that you are good at these things too. This exercise helps to put things in perspective and realize that if other people see it, you are not imagining your abilities. Also think about times others have acknowledged your work in areas you don’t feel as confident. Was what they said about your performance in line with what you felt you accomplished, even if you struggled with it? Then think about if you have received negative feedback (not what you think was negative, like “so and so said I should use red and she knows I hate red so she is mad at me” but actual “you have to stop doing this” or “you messed up” feedback). Do you get feedback a lot? Do you have to change the way you would have handled a project or task due to this feedback? If you are consistently being told different ways to do things then perhaps your idea of how things should be done is not lining up with the reality (or you work for a company that keeps changing it’s mind … ugh!).

    7. Emilitron*

      Wow, that sounds really hard.
      I think of Imposter Syndrome as being something that everyone experiences, but you’ve just shown me that everyone experiences it differently. If you asked if I often feel Imposter Syndrome at work, I’d say yes, but I don’t know if I could handle a “constant mental barrage telling me that I’ll never succeed and everyone secretly despises me.” That is really tough, and sounds like something you’d benefit from really focusing on, and getting some help with. I hate being the internet person who says “go talk to a therapist!” because I know that’s not for everybody, but I bet it would be really beneficial to you if you could.
      Everyone experiences self-doubt! Everyone worries that they’re not doing as well as their bosses expect! But not everyone is dealing with it as a constant barrage of self-insults. I think the message that everyone experiences imposter syndrome is important, because it encourages people to recognize their self-doubt as a universal condition rather than a true indicator of failing – but I wouldn’t want that message to turn into normalization of really negative feelings as you seem to have.

      1. Jellyfish*

        I recently started seeing a therapist for a different issue, so I will bring this up with them. Thanks!

    8. WantonSeedStitch*

      For me, something that helps is putting myself into situations where I have an opportunity to get a better idea of what other people know. I remember a number of years back, a colleague and I were trying to put together a resource guide on, let’s say, what kinds of teapots are made in various countries, so that folks making international-style teapots in our organization could find the info they needed to make them correctly. We found out our local professional association was holding a round table on international teapots, so we went to it, thinking, “we know so little about this vast field! Surely everyone else there will be experts, and we’ll learn a ton from them.” Much to our surprise, we found out that actually, the level of information we’d been able to find on international teapots was significantly more than most of the people there, and we’d done more to organize and document what we’d found!

      I think as much of imposter syndrome is due to overestimating others, as it is to underestimating ourselves.

    9. Arvolin*

      That “constant mental barrage” sounds very like depression to me. Please go to a doctor or therapist and get checked out. A lot of depression can be treated nowadays, with drugs and cognitive therapy, and if you do have it you will be far happier once it’s dealt with.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      Two of the strangest things about the workplace are Imposter Syndrome and Gaslighting and whether or not you are actually experiencing this for real, or is it your own insecurities. Of course with Gaslighting, the whole point is to make someone feel their reality does not match what has actually happened (through lies or denials or manipulation). With Imposter Syndrome, you kind of do that to yourself. And Gaslighting someone may cause Imposter Syndrome.

      It’s normal to feel some level of Imposter Syndrome, especially at a new job, new duties or the like. But a constant mental barrage is not as normal. You have to accept that you really ‘can’t do it all’ or ‘be the expert at everything’ and that your coworkers may be better at some things and worse at others compared to you.
      I hate to jump on the see a therapist bandwagon (because therapy isn’t a magic cure all), but if you’re experiencing this to such a degree it’s damaging, it might be the time to do so. If not a therapist, a work or career coach might also help with some of it.

    11. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      Close your eyes and try to figure out whose voice you’re really hearing…it might be a hypercritical parent or teacher. Then once you know, start saying, “Shut up, Mom!” when you find yourself plagued by doubt. If this doesn’t apply to you, feel free to ignore…but my imposter voice was absolutely a parent.

    12. Jaded*

      Oof. This is something I can really relate to, but I don’t know how helpful I can be because the things that got me out of it did so indirectly. First off, getting a new job where I was a lot happier, and a ton of changes in my personal life that also made me much happier. Plus antidepressants, and (on the worst days) I have some anti anxiety meds that are simply amazing. I still have imposter syndrome, but I don’t have the constant mental barrage any more. I hope you too can find a way out of it.

  14. Amber Rose*

    Usually when I come to work I’m SO fatigued. Like, getting out of bed in the morning is just awful every time, and I get home wiped out. On Wednesday night I barely slept at all due to some health issues, so I was pretty tired yesterday morning, but I wasn’t feeling the fatigue like usual. I got up, ate some breakfast, did work. Took my lunch break at the gym, then went back and ate carrots as a snack while finishing up the new work that came in. I was just 100% in a better mood.

    The difference was that I was working from home yesterday.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that my fatigue is all mental, and it’s all coming from the misery inherent in having to be in this office all day. I don’t feel stressed about working, or having to be up at a certain time to work. I just don’t like being HERE, physically here, in this building.

    But my job mostly can’t be done from home. I got special permission for yesterday because I had some stuff going on, but today I’m playing catch-up on the bits I couldn’t do.

    Has anyone else been having any success with finding WFH jobs? There should be more of them these days, right? Think I could do quality/compliance type work from home?

    2. Cabin in the Woods*

      What industry are you in? There are several good job boards out there that advertise only remote jobs. In the meant time, can you talk to your boss about working from home as part of your normal schedule? Even just 1 or 2 days per week?

    3. RagingADHD*

      Check out The Mom Project. It’s not just for moms. There are lots of remote opportunities in different fields.

    4. Zephy*

      It sounds like your main problem is with the physical space in which you work. Are you allowed to jazz it up at all? Like could you get a small plant for your workspace, or put up photos or something on the walls? Can you get office supplies in your favorite color? Could you turn the overhead lights off and use a lamp for some warmer, gentler lighting?

      My department’s offices are all interior rooms with fluorescent lighting, so the only windows we have just look out into another room or the hallway, and we’ve all done at least one or two of these things to make our little dungeon-boxes a bit less dreary. I got to borrow an upstairs office space one day–for one day, over a year ago, and I still think about it–when they were replacing the carpet in ours, and just having that natural light and a window to see trees outside made such an incredible difference in my overall mood.

    5. A Building Nerd*

      Look into Sick Building Syndrome. If the HVAC system in your office isn’t functioning correctly, you could be re-breathing air with too much CO2 and pollutants which has side effects for mental function and mood. Other things mentioned by Zephy like lack of natural light, general dungeon-y vibes definitely impact mood but I wouldn’t rule out a physical IAQ problem.

      Since you’re the kind of person who goes to the gym on their lunch break and eats carrot sticks, you could be extra sensitive to changes in physical functioning compared to coworkers.

      1. Fresh air*

        Industrial ventilation issues are definitely a thing! In my almost 20 years of professional experience, I’ve worked everywhere from a home office to a brand newly constructed state of the art office, to regular offices in middle aged buildings. I never could figure out why I felt so drained at the end of the day with a combination of dry skin, limp & flat hair and overall just gross when I’d done nothing but sit at a desk when working from corporate offices. Then when my colleague literally broke the window lock so we could have fresh air, I realized it’s the HVAC. Many of them use ions to cleanse but they can also zap energy. I never feel that zapped working from home or when I worked in an office based in someone else’s home. The fresh air is now absolutely essential, especially in COVID times.

    6. librarienne*

      I recently looked into environmental design for a project and was really surprised by what I found. It might be helpful to think about what exactly about the building is stressful to you. In my research I found that different types of design/layouts are more or less stimulating. Open-plan layouts are actually *less* stimulating because you can see everything, whereas “segmented layouts,” with separate walls and doors, are *more* stimulating because if you hear noises, etc, you have to think about what possibly could be happening elsewhere. That type of cognitive activity (wondering what is happening that you can’t see) is more stimulating. There are a lot of other stressors too that happen in design. So if it’s not something about the job, but about the actual *building* it might be useful to pinpoint it so you can maybe try to adjust it as much as possible, or ensure that the next job you have fits with your needs.

      Of course, when you’re burnt out, stressors that didn’t bother you before are going to stress you out– if we were not in a pandemic, if all our mental health was 100% etc we probably could deal with more, but when our energy/gumption is already low, tiny things can make a big difference.

  15. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Would like some input on if to say something, and if so, how. I’m an individual contributor reporting to a newish to the company manager, call him Peter. He is not a new manager, and supposedly has extensive experience in the field. He started in late March, so hasn’t met the team in person due to covid remote work. I’m seriously questioning his competence/mental health. We’re auditors. Examples:

    -Had a meeting with Vivian, who’s known to be highly competent, doesn’t like beating around the bush, and easy to work with if you are also competent. Vivian had asked us to look into something that has been a problem. We did, and yes it’s a problem but not the way she thought. It’s me and Peter on the call with Vivian, I’m talking her through what we found, showing her some data, etc. She’s satisfied and quite pleased. I move into next steps and specifically ask Peter to chime in on some timing. He then spends 5 minutes monologuing about what I already said and never addresses the timing question. Vivian is nice about it, but clearly annoyed.

    -Another meeting with Chris who’s known to be a smartass and not a fan of auditors. This is a risk assessment meeting, so asking open ended questions. Chris talks for a couple minutes answering a question, Peter then doesn’t respond. At all. To the point that Chris starts talking to the other person on the line who’s just there to take notes. (Could be explained by technical issues, but the connection during the meeting otherwise was fine)

    -Same meeting, Chris is talking about a “multi year big dollar project”, and Peter responds with “so is this ongoing or is it completely wrapped up”.

    -Peter is working with Ryan on an audit. Ryan did the planning, Peter reviewed and approved it, it’s in fieldwork. Now Peter is asking Ryan all sorts of questions that should be part of planning – 2 weeks late. And not just one or 2, but there were at least 10 detailed questions (I saw the email) that all were/should have been addressed in planning.

    These are just some examples. However, literally every interaction between Peter and anyone else that I’ve seen or have knowledge of is similar. I’m really wondering if the guy is ok, mentally. I know he has a couple of young kids, though they’re back in day care. Regardless, this sort of thing is causing problems for the wider team. I can’t rely on him to do what is literally his job, timely and well. He is annoying clients, he is damaging relationships, and he’s not encouraging people to trust the department to be competent because he’s clearly not. So, do I say something to someone higher up? If so, what?

    1. Friday afternoon fever*

      Do not be like “is he okay mentally.” Focus on everything else, the problems he’s causing for your work with his responses or non responses. It would not be appropriate for you to bring his mental health into this based on your summaries. Don’t underestimate the power of an incompetent man in the workplace that everyone has silently agreed to work around or just accept and carry the workload (see ‘missing stair’ syndrome).

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        That makes sense, thanks. And missing stairs is a concept I’m very familiar with. We have some of that happening, though since our big boss just left I think the chances of repairing those missing stairs went way up.

        1. Friday afternoon fever*

          Do you have any regular project check ins? That could be the best place to raise this, so it’s not like We Are Meeting About Peter Who Is Terrible but more like We Are Meeting About My Project Which Is Going Well Except for Peter Who Is a Terrible Obstacle

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            Yes, but not with Peter’s boss. I could easily go to Peter’s boss, I used to report to him directly, but don’t have regular meetings with him now

            And really, Peter isn’t causing major problems for me. I’m experienced and good, I can (and am) working around Peter. I just shouldn’t have to.

            1. Friday afternoon fever*

              No, you shouldn’t! I also missed initially that you’re reporting to Peter now, is that right? Soooooo sorry to hear that. Peter’s boss is probably the best person to approach. It will help to have goals in mind — do you want Peter off your project? Do you want someone else to replace him on your project? Do you want to report to someone else? And then go to your old boss, Peter’s new boss, and be like “this is a big problem for me that I don’t know how to solve. He is annoying clients, he is damaging relationships, and he’s not encouraging people to trust the department to be competent. [If this creates extra work for you or delays your projects, say that!] How would you approach this? It’s really untenable for me. SOS.”

            2. Observer*

              No, you shouldn’t have to work around the guy.

              Talk to your grandboss. It’s impacting you directly, and it’s having a significant impact on other aspects of the business.

      2. Baffled Teacher*

        This doesn’t sound like mental illness, it just sounds like someone who’s terrible at his job

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Yes, please say something to their boss. You don’t need to bring the mental health aspect into it, but just how they are causing problems. I had a coworker like this in a previous job, not new to the industry and plenty of experience. But she could not handle very simple aspects of her job that we thought she should be able to and we eventually all actively had to take her work on and work around her. I had some candid talks with my boss when she asked for my opinion (and she also could see the problems as well) and eventually she was let go.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      This strikes me as a person who is multi-tasking on phone calls instead of listening. I think that making a leap to “something is mentally wrong with them” is going way overboard. Instead, they are probably looking at emails, distracted by kids, reading or looking at something else etc while on calls instead of paying attention. It is a hard one to fix if someone is senior and you don’t have a long relationship with them.

      1. Absurda*

        This is what I was thinking as well. Since these are all over the phone, unless it’s video conf., it’s impossible to tell if he’s paying attention or even listening at all. I wouldn’t speculate about this mental health just based on the examples you provided.

    4. Workerbee*

      Multitasking or just plain not listening in the first place, or retaining what has been said.

      My boss is like this and will claim he has no knowledge of anything.

    5. Uranus Wars*

      I would express your concerns to someone higher up.

      If he started with the company post-WFH he may also not be getting the support he needs to get up to speed; especially if this isn’t normally a WFH position or he has never done it before. It’s hard to lead a new team in general, let alone remote when you’ve never met them.

      This doesn’t excuse the monologue at all, but some of the other behavior might be things he would have picked up on in an office. And he could be stressed and uncertain and acting in ways he normal wouldn’t without having just changed jobs in the middle of a pandemic.

      Or he could just be incompetent himself and a conversation with someone higher up would reveal that too. I agree, though, focus on his work, not his mental stability.

    6. Grey Coder*

      Peter is bad at his job. A few jobs ago, I was in a similar situation — company had hired (say) Paul as a very senior person to advise on all aspects of our llama care service. Paul had had impressive sounding roles in relevant llama related enterprises, but (crucially) none of the hands-on llama care staff were involved in the interview process. It turned out that Paul was not actually knowledgeable or competent at any of the pragmatics of llama care. He was maybe an okay generic project manager, but he had been hired as a llama super expert.

      After Paul was given a couple of very specific tasks related to improvements to our llama services and failed at them, the senior folks realised what was going on. Paul saw the writing on the wall, and (I was told) handed in his resignation when he was pulled in for his first PIP meeting.

      Raise this with Peter’s boss, and sooner rather than later. Do not cover up for Peter or work around him. Let his failures be failures and let them be his alone.

    7. Observer*

      Why are you even going into this guy’s mental health? Or the fact that he’s a parent? There is absolutely nothing here that points to a mental health issue or that the issue is that he’s a parent. Of course there could be issues in either area, but there is absolutely nothing in what you describe to even hint at it.

      Which is to say that if you are genuinely concerned about the work, as you should be then just talk to whoever is in charge of your department, and tell them about the issues. Give them these (and similar) examples and explain the impacts. And then let them do what they need to do. Do NOT even HINT at anything about his mental health or family status.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        I think OP mentioned the children being back in daycare as a “rule out” on distractions from having to work and watch them at the same time.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’m not going to comment about whether he is “ok mentally” as such, but what I see here is someone greatly out of their depth and unable to keep up, for whatever reason. I’ve seen this numerous times in workplaces, the causes I can think of (without comment as to your particular manager) included: “over-egging” a resume and being recruited for a job they weren’t qualified for; mental health issues of various kinds; severe personal life issues that weren’t really mental health ‘conditions’ as such but did have an impact on their emotional wellbeing; alcoholism eventually requiring in-patient treatment; a ‘diet plan’ (or whatever you want to call it) that involved fasting and resulting in the person being light-headed, dizzy and ‘spaced out’ (All different people!)

      In your position I would gather concrete examples of things he’s done (or not done, as the case may be) leaving out any judgements or assumption of causes, just note things like the impact on the team/client etc and ultimately have a chat with his boss (assuming you can’t address it with him directly or have already tried). You didn’t mention HR but I don’t think going to them will be very helpful in the first instance.

  16. nep*

    I’ve moved on from this and am working on another application as we speak, but I’d like to hear people’s thoughts. A friend/colleague who knows I’m looking for work in our shared field recommended me for a consultancy she can’t take on as she’s now working full time. It would a bit of a stretch as I don’t have as extensive a background in the work as she, but we both thought it was worth a shot. She emailed the HR person, CCing me, just saying, there you go–you two can take it from here.
    My initial thought was that I would wait to hear from the HR person. My colleague emailed me later saying ‘feel free to reach out to her with your CV.’ I took that to mean to go ahead and do so before hearing from the HR person. That felt odd to me and I was on the fence about whether to do so. Finally–almost inexplicably–I did send a note and my resume. As an HR person, would you have seen that as off-putting? To hear from the candidate ‘unsolicited’ like that? Or is either way OK–and in the end it’s trivial and all that matters is what I have to offer?
    Thanks for any thoughts, insights.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I think the ball was in your court to send the email with your resume. You’ve done that, now the ball is in her court.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Since your friend made the introduction I would expect the next step to come from you. I would expect that the next thing I got would be your introducing yourself with a copy of your CV.

    4. AnonQ*

      I’m not in HR, but I am a freelancer, so I’ve encountered this before. The other permutation is that your professional friend Wakeen says, “Hey, AnonQ, I can’t do this gig, but here’s the info, give them a call.” In both cases, I’d definitely take the initiative.

      Since you have an email from your friend/colleague (let’s call her Jane), I’d just reply to that email (take Jane OFF the email!) and say something like, “As Jane indicated, I have a great deal of experience in llama grooming, and would love to schedule time to speak with you about this opportunity. I’ve attached my resume…… [the usual cover-letter type stuff].

      If it’s the other situation, and your colleague did not email the HR person, I’d just change the wording a bit to let the HR person know where I got their contact info. “Jane Hilbersham let me know that you have an opening for a llama groomer….”

      But in either case, do Jane a solid and take her out of the loop. Email her separately to say you contacted them, thanks for the lead, yay-I-got-the-gig, etc.

    5. AnonQ*

      Move from nesting problem below.

      I’m not in HR, but I am a freelancer, so I’ve encountered this before. The other permutation is that your professional friend Wakeen says, “Hey, AnonQ, I can’t do this gig, but here’s the info, give them a call.” In both cases, I’d definitely take the initiative.

      Since you have an email from your friend/colleague (let’s call her Jane), I’d just reply to that email (take Jane OFF the email!) and say something like, “As Jane indicated, I have a great deal of experience in llama grooming, and would love to schedule time to speak with you about this opportunity. I’ve attached my resume…… [the usual cover-letter type stuff].

      If it’s the other situation, and your colleague did not email the HR person, I’d just change the wording a bit to let the HR person know where I got their contact info. “Jane Hilbersham let me know that you have an opening for a llama groomer….”

      But in either case, do Jane a solid and take her out of the loop. Email her separately to say you contacted them, thanks for the lead, yay-I-got-the-gig, etc.

      1. nep*

        Good points. Thanks.
        I did an entirely separate email to the HR person–of course, having thanked my friend/colleague for the lead earlier.
        In the end, I do think it was a stretch as I’m missing some qualifications–but definitely wanted to put myself out there given that they did ask her to recommend anyone since she’s booked.
        Appreciate your insights.

    6. Working Hypothesis*

      If your friend made the intro and said “you two can take it from there,” then it’s totally appropriate and expected for you to take the next step by giving them your CV and whatever other particulars are necessary. They were probably expecting it. It’s more than fine; it would’ve been a little weird — though not really a problem — to wait to be explicitly asked for them.

  17. topscallop*

    My husband just got turned down for the only job he’s gotten an interview for, in quarantine times. He quit his much-hated old job in late December and we moved for my job in January, to a lower COL area. He has taken courses and studied for a career switch since we moved and is looking for jobs in front-end development. Any tips/recommendations for breaking into the field? He has tons of CRM experience, knows JavaScript and some other coding languages, and has designed his own app that he uses as a portfolio to show potential employers what he can do. I see lots of computer programming jobs on LinkedIn and forward the ones for entry level that seem relevant, plus the course he just finished has him applying for or at least connecting with 25 job leads/week, which seems to me to be the best way to find something. But are there other options we’re not thinking of? He looked at coding bootcamps but balked at the cost when he already knows a lot of what they cover.

    I can support us on my salary alone, but he’s really struggling with boredom and the feeling that he’s not contributing enough. I’m also going on maternity leave in about 6 weeks. We’ll be okay financially, but without two incomes, we’re going to have to stay another year in the apartment we’re renting, when we’d really rather buy a house. Which is fine, just not what we were hoping for. I also don’t know if we should be looking at daycare for when I return to work, because if he doesn’t have a job by then, he’ll be the primary caregiver, but if he does have a job, we’re going to need to find child care, and from what I’ve heard, you need to find a place months in advance (though maybe not with COVID? Ugh I don’t know).

    Sorry, that turned into a ramble! Just looking for advice for a career change into coding during a pandemic, I guess, without formal education in the subject area.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is he a college grad? Has he looked into networking with his alumni association, or seen what his alma mater offers for services? Even if he graduated years ago, many university career centers offer all sorts of advice, networking, etc.

      1. topscallop*

        Yes, he has a BA from a university in the US and a master’s degree from a university in the UK. That’s a good tip, I’ll suggest it, thanks!

    2. Picard*

      Cant help you with the job stuff, but I would look for daycare. You can always cancel it (and someone will be delighted if you do as it will open up a last minute spot for someone else) but trying to find somehting last minute is a bit of a crap shoot.

      1. Natalie*

        Yeah, if you’re due in 6 weeks and don’t have daycare lined up definitely start looking now! In my area most people get their daycare nailed down about midway through their pregnancy. It may have settled down a bit, but for a while COVID was making it *harder* to find infant spots. They needed to divert caregivers to the toddler and preschool groups to allow for distancing, and caregivers are out more often due to possible exposures.

        1. topscallop*

          Ok, you lit a fire under me! I reached out to one place a few months ago and they said they did have availability, I just need to actually call and talk to someone.

      2. VelociraptorAttack*

        Agreed 100% with this. When I was pregnant, I was due in September and when I started calling about daycares in April, some places actually laughed. One place literally had a waiting list of 2 years. The only way we were able to get in at the type of place we wanted was because they were building another building and able to expand. We just sent some friends over to check them out, they have an infant waiting list until July of next year.

        My kid is two and about to move out of the “infants” room at daycare but I’m fairly certain I’m still on at least 3 infant childcare wait lists.

        Rules tend to be a lot stricter in terms of caregiver:child ratios with infants , which is great but it can make care very very very hard to find.

        1. Jackalope*

          How do you even….. I mean, some people plan babies out that far, but you can’t even know for sure if you’ll get pregnant or when. How can you get on a waiting list for infant child care 2 years before he infant is born???

          1. MsNotMrs*

            In my experience, it’s mostly the parents who are anticipating having a second or third child.

    3. Jimming*

      He needs to go to virtual coding meetup groups and get to know people in the field in your area. He also needs an active GitHub presence. Unless that app is really amazing he needs more than 1 project in his portfolio – maybe contribute to an open-source project. Good luck!

      1. irene adler*

        Yes!

        And look for professional organizations that have a chapter local to you area. They may have networking events, and mentoring and may have job leads or know who is hiring.

      2. topscallop*

        Thanks, this is great advice. I know he has an active GitHub presence but I don’t think he’s been doing virtual meetups or open-source projects.

      3. T. Boone Pickens*

        Yup, totally agree on finding a group that meets and talks shop whether that’s .Net, Ruby, Azure, etc. He’ll be able to keep current on new trends and more often than not, recruiters will often attend/sponsor them.

    4. LDF*

      A reputable boot camp will help with getting him an internship or full time job. Not all bootcamps are reputable though.

      1. LDF*

        This is a little vague so to clarify I mean they will literally help him, not that the bootcamp will be a resume booster. Good ones have industry connections.

        1. Artemesia*

          Really critical to research the bootcamp. A few years ago they were a real ticket and I now a couple of people who transformed their lives and careers with one. But they have faded out and many have closed. I’d want to know real evidence of their ability to connect you with work.

          1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

            One place to check if a bootcamp is potentially worth considering is the Council on Integrity in Results Reporting (CIRR). Basically, they validate that their member schools are accurately reporting their results. They also provide a list of member schools, and outcome reports for those schools.

            Their website is https://cirr.org/

    5. Jill*

      Virtual/Online schools need a lot of help in that area right now, but I don’t know what kind of qualifications they’d require!

    6. Anax*

      If he’s specifically invested in front-end development – I remember hearing a lot about Node.js, REST API, Ajax, Ruby, and SQL/NoSQL on that side lately. This will vary by region, but might be a place to brush up.

      If he’s mostly self-taught, I would STRONGLY recommend brushing up on formal terminology. It’s super easy, speaking from experience, to sound silly at an interview because you know best practices and procedures… but you forgot the formal term and have to call it a “selecty-thingy.” Argh.

      Generally in coding – Entry-level software development jobs are just hard to find! In my experience, most openings want 3-5 years of experience, and the few entry-level slots often get snapped up by people with 2-3 years of experience who are looking for a second job. He can keep playing the numbers game – lots of applications, eventually one will get in – try to network his way into a job, or make a really impressive GitHub, but this first position is likely to be the toughest to find, in my experience. To make matters worse, it seems like a lot of places are reluctant to hire in IT during Q4, and even more reluctant during COVID; we’re not direct money-makers, so IT is a common place to cut costs. Jobhunting may take a bit.

      1. Anax*

        … bad phrasing. People with 2-3 years of experience who are looking for THEIR second job – e.g., to move on from the first, often because they’re burned out.

  18. MissGirl*

    My company puts on a super awesome industry renowned conference. Of course, it’s going entirely online this year. I have a hard time staying engaged in long online meetings. My attention doesn’t hold past ten minutes unless I’m interacting as part of it.

    What tips do you have to getting the most out of a conference that’s online?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Take lots of notes. Even stuff you already know. Down to the level of meeting minutes if you have to. That will keep your brain and hands engaged and occupied. Write down questions and meta-observations too.

    2. Leap Day Highway*

      Things I tried to various degrees of success during a recent online conference:
      Sit in a different spot in your house (if you are working from home) or office
      Engage in the chat (if there is one)
      Take detailed notes
      Color or do mindless chores while listening

      One thing I should have done but did not do: pretend that you are physically at the conference! Clear your schedule, put up your out-of-office message, only check your email during breaks, etc. Just because you are not physically at the conference doesn’t mean you should be doing your normal job too!

      1. Bostonian*

        That last one is huge! I did a week-long virtual conference earlier this year, and since I had to participate via Zoom, I was literally on my work computer the whole time. It was really hard to not respond to emails in the moment (or even between sessions, which can make it easy to miss a session you had planned on attending).

        I also took copious notes and screen shots to stay engaged.

      2. AnonQ*

        +1 on the “Engage in chat.” I sincerely hope that the sessions have chat and are not just talking heads with a Q&A afterwards. I do a lot of online teaching. Not exactly the same, I know, but I actively encourage chat as a way to engage the audience. It will help the speaker and you both–as a presenter, it’s HARD to just talk into a void. An open chat shouldn’t be just for Q&A. There should be room for you to connect with others by sharing your own experience (“I’ve have tons of customers who like blue teapots!”), even make some lighthearted comments. (“This report shows where our most profitable teapot customers are, but you can use our application for just about anything.” “Like showing which Walmart has toilet paper in stock?”)

    3. Rachel in NYC*

      Or if you have a hobby that can be monotonous (and it isn’t obvious that you are doing it) so you can listen actively and it will keep you engaged?

      I have this problem even at in person conferences when it’s just really not related to my day to day job- but I knit. So I’ll bring a really basic knitting project that I don’t need to look at. It keeps me engaged in what is going on- and I get a hat when I’m done. (I’ve seen other people mention doing the same thing now with long zoom conference calls.)

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        YES. I play puzzle games (2048 is a current favorite). It keeps me occupied and not bored, and lets me listen.

      2. AnonoDoc*

        In the before-times, knitters and hook-ers would congregate in the back rows at medical conferences.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      Will it be recorded so you can watch segments at your leisure? I have a favorite conference that I wasn’t able to go to a few times and they record then post all their speaker’s talks online. It’s great physically being at the conference, but I like the virtual conference almost as much because I don’t have to pick which break out session to go to if there are many great ones at the same time. And I can quit a session that wasn’t what I was expecting instead of being trapped in a crowded conference room. I’ll watch a few sessions, then come back when I think of a topic I want to learn more about.

    5. asleep at the disco*

      Pacing in front of the computer helps me a lot. I keep moving, my mind stays focused.

    6. Oxford Comma*

      My biggest problem with my online conference was that I had other tasks going on. I was answering email, clicking away from presentations, etc. By the end of the conference, I realized I needed to treat it like I was there in person. I blocked off time. No email. No multi-tasking. Just dealt with conference activities even if it was just for a portion of the day.

      Also, I second everyone else who recommended taking notes on paper. In general, I find that helps me focus and retain information.

      And schedule breaks to get up and stretch, eat, and so on.

    7. Hillary*

      if you have space and both a laptop and a tv, it can help to put the conference on your tv. moving into the living room is different enough for me that it triggers a different kind of work focus.

      I stand up when I need to focus on something virtual, or I do handwork. Lately I’ve been doing english paper piecing, which involves shaping small pieces of fabric around cardstock forms and then sewing them together.

    8. MissGirl*

      Thanks, everyone. There’s a lot of good ideas here. Unfortunately, I can’t turn work off completely but maybe I can identify the sessions I’m the most interested in and block those out. I also like the ideas of having it on my TV and doing some light activities while listening.

  19. Vested Benefits + Corp bankruptcy*

    A colleague was fully vested at her job, & the company went bankrupt & closed. She was given none of her promised benefits. Any recommendations on tracking down things after the fact? I’m assuming profit-sharing doesn’t happening when there are not enough profits to remain open, but what about retirement & other “protected” funds?

    She has called the Dept of Labor, which told her they have no info for her. She’s been working at this for some time; I offered to ask here for info or suggestions.

    1. WellRed*

      She needs professional advice, probably from a lawyer. Others here will have more knowledge of this, but with bankruptcy she’s probably way down the list of creditors to be paid. I don’t know how things like protected funds work in relation to a bankruptcy, but Enron comes to mind. It sounds like the company no longer exists? Or are they reorganizing?

    2. Reba*

      She needs more information about what type of bankruptcy (sounds like Chapter 7 but she needs the details about what the company was ordered to do).

      She should contact the financial firm(s) administering her retirement and other benefits. In general they are protected by the ERISA law. If she can’t find out about her accounts, or she thinks things were not deposited where they ought to have been, she can call a helpline at the Employee Benefits Security Administration (US DOL).

    3. pancakes*

      There’s a Dep’t of Labor fact sheet on this topic titled, “Your Employer’s Bankruptcy – How Will it Affect Your Employee Benefits?” It has links to resources and contacts within. I’d start there.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      She should see if there’s an Unsecured Creditor’s Committee in the bankruptcy. They might be able to explain what is happening. I note that employee claims actually usually have priority, but that doesn’t help if there is no money in the pot.

      1. Natalie*

        Although you still want to file a claim as their may be money forthcoming from asset sales and so forth.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If she has a profit sharing plan, that money should be in an account separate from the company. It wouldn’t be something that the company had any part of after they closed down. It’s sitting in an account somewhere, who was the provider of the account? She can have them rolled over into another account like a personal IRA.

      When we had to shut down our profit sharing because of lack of profit, not bankruptcy, we had a financial advisor assist in rolling it over into personal accounts with a place like Vanguard.

      DOL wouldn’t have that info, it’s in the securities world. She should look in her paperwork and see if she has any details there and contact the company who holds the funds.

      Of course it could have been invested in the company itself then there’s no assets to collect upon since it’s a dumped company. I hope that’s not the case. But if it’s a general profit sharing one, held with an outside retirement company like Hartford, then it’s a matter of tracking the account down. it’ll eventually end up in the Unclaimed Properties otherwise.

  20. Aurora Leigh*

    I’m pregnant!

    Looking for any workplace advice you can offer, especially in the time of COVID.

    1. Notthatkindofmarinebiologist*

      Congratulations! I just had a baby in June, so I hope I can offer some general and Covid-specific advice.
      1.It’s up to you who you tell and when. You can be specific or vague, but you might need to disclose that you have some medical issues right now that limit your ability to be around people, lift, whatever. Personally I told as few people as possible, and I love my coworkers. It was just exhausting overall to think about pregnancy, covid, and work, and I wanted to focus on work at work. I did tell my boss and direct supervisor early, because they are very family friendly (both moms themselves) and I wanted them to know why I had so many blocks on my calendar (for doc appointments). They are incredibly supportive people and very discreet, so it was nice to be able talk with them and ask for their advice. But find out what the maternity policy is at your workplace NOW. You can say it’s for future planning purposes if you don’t want to out yourself yet.
      2.Plan, plan, plan. I managed several projects, so I started putting together timelines and redundancies early. I didn’t share them with my team until I was ready, and that’s when I shared that I was pregnant, when I planned to go on maternity leave, and how long I expected to take off. I wrote my progress reports that would be due while I was out, I created a very specific away message with contact people for each project (and saved it until I was ready to post), created a master excel doc with where files are stored and who was responsible for handling what while I was out, and was extra careful to backup my work to the shared files, etc. I’m in the US at a small organization that doesn’t offer maternity leave, only short-term disability, so I also had a spreadsheet of how much salary I would miss out on using short-term disability and if I returned part-time, how much I had spent towards my deductible, how much I expected to spend over the course of my pregnancy.
      3.Be kind to yourself and as flexible as possible. Your situation will depend on your workplace, but I knew which supervisors appreciated a plan and which co-workers would be best able to pick up my tasks while I was out. During pregnancy, you might need to take more breaks, shift your start time, or spend more or less time sitting/standing, and you should listen to your body and your doctor! Don’t assume everything will be “normal” until you give birth. I made no promises of when I would come back and for how many hours, especially as I am now working from home with an infant in my office! As for Covid, I’ve been very isolated since March. I’m fortunate to be able to work 100% from home. Early on, I declined some in-person opportunities to be extra cautious, but I’ve also sought out new opportunities at work and have been able to pick those up because of Covid. I’ve also sought out online forums for pregnancy support, which were super helpful.
      Best wishes to you for a healthy pregnancy!

    2. Eleanor Knope*

      Congratulations!

      Currently 30 weeks here. Without knowing your circumstances, the best advice I can give is to just be kind to yourself. There have been many, many days where I felt bad about my productivity dropping or not having as much mental energy as usual. I was constantly worried people thought I was dropping the ball — then when I finally announced my pregnancy, I reached out to a few close colleagues and apologized for my drop in output lately and they all said they hadn’t noticed a thing.

      If you have a role where someone will be covering for you during maternity leave that doesn’t usually do those tasks, you may want to make a list of easy procedure updates or reviews that you can go through on days where you can’t quite focus but still want to feel like you’re making progress.

  21. Eleanor*

    At what point is the pandemic no longer a ‘good enough’ reason for lack of motivation or productivity at work?

    Back in March when the lockdown first happened, the company was really good about reassuring people it’s normal to be a bit out of sorts, to take their time adjusting, and not to be too stressed about keeping up pace with what would be business as usual. (Everyone’s been working from home since then and there’s no plan to return to the office before 2021)

    It’s been mostly okay I think, it took about a week or two to get into a new routine and to set up the home office, but that got done. I was working mostly as usual from April until just recently. Since mid-August however, I’m feeling a resurgence of the ‘weirdness’ from early March, and I’m just not working as efficiently, I’m more easily distracted. Maybe it’s an awareness that summer’s coming to an end, or just the feeling of being ‘disconnected’ finally catching up, but yeah, it’s getting harder.

    Thing is, it’s almost 6 months into this, so this is nothing new and I don’t think the higher ups would be as understanding as they would’ve been earlier on. So now I’m not sure what to do. I took a few days off last week but that turned out counterproductive because I’m even less motivated now.

    1. Gatomon*

      I’m struggling too, and so I’m getting back on meds for it personally (historically my depression has always hit at the tail end of summer anyway). I’m also digging back into some coping strategies I was using at the start because I need them again.

      For me I think it’s the realization that COVID will likely be here through the winter as a serious threat, which is not something I truly understood back in March, plus the feeling that summer is gone before it ever really came. The changing of seasons really marks the passage of time. In early March there was snow flying outside my window. Leaves came, and now they’re starting to turn here. I’ve got maybe a few more weeks before I turn the furnace on again.

    2. Kristinemc*

      I will add a link to an article below this comment – I read something about “surge capacity” and how our surge capacity is being depleted. Basically, your surge capacity is what was keeping you going, but it’s meant for short term situations, and the pandemic is ongoing, so that is why a lot of people are feeling the way that they do now.

    3. MissGirl*

      Since this is a long-term issue that isn’t going away, it’s time to figure out what works for you and what doesn’t and how to manage it. Your problem may not be the pandemic per say, it may be working from home isn’t ideal for you or it may just be end-of-the-summer malaise. You might have to try different things to see what sticks. Some things that help me:
      I joined a Wednesday night hiking group and having that break in the week has saved my soul, I kid you not
      Can you plan a mini-vacation down the road to give you something to look forward to
      Are there projects at work you find more engaging that you could request.
      Set a timer at intervals during the day where your 100% focused and then you can move
      How’s your office set-up and can it be improved upon
      Is your off-time fulfilling?
      I took certain distracting apps off my phone and blocked websites

      1. Bostonian*

        This is so true. Not only is it a long-term issue, but the situation and regulations around it are constantly changing. The uncertainty plays a huge part in the feelings of burnout and unease.

        I second the hiking! I wish I had a hiking group to keep me accountable. :-)

      2. Watry*

        That last thing cannot be understated. I somehow managed to get myself away from certain sites that are designed to keep you scrolling, especially Twitter. My work output level was already fine (lower workload than usual), but the benefit to my mental health has been enormous, and my personal productivity goals have becomes far easier. I’ve also started taking an altered tech Sabbath. From 7 pm Friday to 7pm Saturday, no websites except a handful which are directly beneficial to my mental health, which for me is limited to certain book sites, my online book group Slack, and Youtube with comments removed.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      I have the same problem and lemme tell you, work will have NO sympathy–I brought it up once and it was so instantly DON’T EVEN SAY THAT YOU BAD PERSON vibe that I gave up.
      So all I can say is keep your mouth shut and keep faking.

    5. SimplyHired*

      These 2 quotes were from the surge capacity article, I think they say it all.
      Shouldn’t I be used to this by now?
      “Why do you think you should be used to this by now? We’re all beginners at this,” Masten told me. “This is a once in a lifetime experience. It’s expecting a lot to think we’d be managing this really well.”

      1. Leap Day Highway*

        Oh, I like this a lot. I have also been struggling with motivation and also with guilt – I have no kids or other responsibilities and 100% should be able to do my job from home, whereas my teammates all have young children. I feel like I should be stepping up and doing more! I have no excuse, I should be rocking this! But of course “we’re all beginners at this” regardless of our particular circumstances.

    6. LGC*

      Okay, that’s tricky.

      I was about to comment with everything I’m going through, but this isn’t about me. It’s about you – and your life has been uprooted in the past five months with an end date of next year at the earliest. (I honestly doubt that things will be fine next year, or even in 2022. But that’s just me.)

      I don’t know your company. But things are very obviously not “normal” as defined in February 2020. And they’re not going to be normal for a long time. I don’t know if you can say “pandemic,” and that explains everything, but I do think it’s a valid reason to be out of sorts. (I work in an office and I worry every day that one of my employees is going to get sick and die. This is perfectly normal now, but I wish it weren’t.)

    7. BlueBelle*

      I think we are all going a bit stir crazy. My motivation comes and goes, some days I am hyper focused and then other days I can barely be bothered to reply to emails. When I am feeling like that I try to schedule a day or two off if my schedule will allow it.
      I have worked from home for years, but since we can’t go anywhere and we aren’t socializing, I am OVER IT. I am really grateful I started on an anti-depressant a few months before all this began, I am not sure how I would have done without it.
      Be kind to yourself.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yeah, taking some time off here and there has helped me recharge, as well. Also, I’m very much introverted and feel very drained after a day or two of 4+ hours of meetings. So for others who might also find that draining, having no-meeting days may be a way to recharge when you can’t take time off.

    8. Niniel*

      I feel you, 100%. I am just at a point where I simply don’t care. I also took a mini vacation(3 day weekend), and that didn’t help either. I’m supposed to come into the office every day I can and work as normal…..I just can’t. I hate feeling this way. Solidarity!

    9. higheredrefugee*

      I’m struggling anew, and realized I need a long weekend at least once a month of truly unplugging, which for me, means a long hike, lots of knitting, reading, and writing, and unplugging from electronics. I’ve started to take a walk at lunch to stretch and reset, and I’ve increased calling friends and family, started to journal again, and increased my workouts and refocused on proper nutrition. I’m taking a week at a time approach and trying to make adjustments as needed. I live alone and though fairly introverted, I’m definitely getting lonely, especially as I expect to amongst the last of my federal agency to be allowed to come back. I’ve never used a therapist before, but I’m considering that as well as talking to my PCP, as I’m definitely a little more depressed but also anxious, and I’m running out of coping skills. So a really long answer to encouage giving yourself some grace, experimenting a bit with routines, and spending some time thinking about what is at your own root (for me, the state of the world on top of all of this is NOT helping).

    10. Reba*

      Yeah, we are hitting walls periodically around here too.

      One thought is that “a few days off” is really not enough.

      I’ve read a few articles about burnout and brains+stress recently that I found helpful. Not necessarily with like, tips, but I felt better having some understanding and validation of what I’m experiencing. Links in reply!

      2. Reba*

        oh, one of which has already been linked in the thread. Well, I guess that illustrates something about how my brain is faring :)

    11. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Honestly, the longer all of this goes on the more depressed I get. Plus I’m anticipating much worse to come, both in terms of the virus and the general state of the world and my particular country.

    12. Former Retail Manager*

      No real advice, just commiserating. I’m in the same boat….time off doesn’t help….management claims to care and understand, but the expectations regarding our work are the same. In fact, because would could not get information from third parties during the shelter-in-place (which is required for our work), most of us are behind, but being expected to miraculously get “caught up” with no ability to work beyond 40 hours. The underlying, unspoken message from management is to just “get it done” and we are questioned on a regular basis about why we aren’t making progress at the rate that management wants.

      While I understand that progress must be made and this can’t be used as an “excuse” forever, the fact is that some people just aren’t cut out to work productively in this environment for any length of time. I am one of them!

      The only way I’ve been able to cope is by making to-do lists, every day without fail. No item is too small for the list. Checking things off the list motivates me to keep going. For longer items, I try to break them down into parts and even give myself time limits for each part to keep myself on task. It is a struggle for sure.

    13. Monty & Millie's Mom*

      Have you taken any time off, even just random days here and there? Even if you can’t go on an actual vacation, I find that semi-regular time off helps me to re-set. If a day or two here or there isn’t cutting it, take a longer chunk of time and try to do SOMETHING that seems vacation-y — a hike nearby, setting up a hammock in a low-traffic area, camping, I dunno – whatever YOU like and will find relaxing! But also realize that you may need some new/different coping strategies for this time, just because this is life now…..best of luck to you!

    14. Parenthetically*

      I’m sorry you’re feeling this way.

      My answer is: the pandemic isn’t over just because your bosses are over it.

      Also f*ck capitalism.

    15. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah… I was actually so GOOD back in the spring. But for some reason after my short July 4th getaway, I am also just struggling to be productive and positive. Some of that is not my fault. My large company has laid off a lot of people, and the layoffs threaten my program. In addition, I find that any work I am trying to plan for the second half of the year just gets STUCK. By that I mean, it needs to be approved for the budget spend, and my managers just simply… DO NOT RESPOND. I have one thing where I still do not have an answer and it has been two months since I submitted it to them for approval (of course I followed-up many, many times, but now I’ve just stopped bothering them — because I feel it is not my job to babysit and make them work). I feel blocked and annoyed and I hate it.

      Some of it is my fault. Given the lack of communication or response I’m getting, I just feel like shrugging and throwing up my hands. ¯\_ (:/)_/¯ Like oh well, if my managers don’t care, why should I care? I do try to work, but I keep getting distracted and let myself be unproductive and unmotivated some days. I actually have an interview next week, which makes me even less motivated at work, because I see it as an out.

      So, you’re not alone in feeling this way! For some, it’s pure burnout, for others it’s just all becoming de-motivational due to factors within your company, and for some it’s also the state of EVERYTHING in our country lately. If you’re a parent, double or triple that.

    16. CC*

      I soooo 150% have this problem. It comes and goes in phases. Right now it’s pretty bad. I haven’t found a solution, and this obviously very much depends on your company culture, but my boss has been super understanding. I think more people are struggling with this than any of us realize, and our bosses may be some of them :).

      1. MissDisplaced*

        You’re absolutely right about it coming and going. Some weeks are fine, others are a frustrating ball of the pits.

    17. Working Hypothesis*

      Honestly, the world being horrifically weird seems to me to be a valid reason for having trouble behaving normally for… as long as the world is horrifically weird. Weird input equals weird response! But I’m aware that most bosses will not feel they are in a position to take this approach, even though I think they should.

    18. A Building Nerd*

      I sympathize, for me it’s been coming and going in waves. One week I’m pretty much at normal capacity, the next week I can’t seem to focus on anything long enough to keep it together. I don’t have helpful advice but I feel you.

  22. Pocket Mouse*

    Have you ever taken a position that was supervised by a friend of yours? How did it go? If it went well, what did you do to make sure it went well? How did you avoid actual or perceived social favoritism?
    I’ve become friends with someone on a team I work closely with. We’ve hung out one on one outside of work, text frequently, talk about some personal stuff, etc., and she’s the person I’m closest to at work. She’s now the hiring manager for a position that would be a very good move for my career. I would very much like, but don’t 100% need, to change jobs: there are significant aspects of my current role that I do not enjoy, my title doesn’t match my responsibilities, and I don’t have much opportunity to dedicate time to learning or development for the foreseeable future. If I do take a new job in the next year it would be with the same employer, meaning my current options are quite limited.
    Additional context: My friend and I already maintain a solid separation between work and friendship, with each of us enforcing the separation at times by saying “You’re not at work, stop answering work questions” etc. We have standard schedules, coverage is not an issue, and projects would be divvied in a way that’s not conducive to favoritism (imagine a Venn diagram of the team members’ specialties where the circles overlap a little, but not much).
    I know Alison says to managers in this situation that you can’t be friends with a direct report, and I fully understand the concerns. On the other hand, I’ve worked with a handful of pairs who maintain a friendship while having a work arrangement like this, and the ones I’ve observed seem to handle having both professional and personal relationships (largely) well- both those who were friends before the reporting relationship, and those who became friends during.
    My questions for those of you who have been friends with your supervisor or direct report: Were you friends going into it? Are you a person who easily navigates complex relationships? Did you or the other person set any boundaries, and how did you talk about them? How did it go for you? If you no longer have the reporting relationship, are you still friends now?

    1. Pocket Mouse*

      For transparency- I posted a version of this question in an open thread two weeks ago, but posted relatively late so am looking for more input. Former Retail Manager, E., Anonymity is bliss- thank you for responding then!

      E. – I’m glad to hear of an instance where it worked out, and glad to know it wasn’t easy! Did you do anything around avoiding the appearance of professional or social favoritism?

      Former Retail Manager – You said you’re still friends with the former supervisor and with the former direct reports- does this mean the aspects/events you advise avoiding lie primarily or wholly within the professional realm?

    2. c_g2*

      This is gonna be kinda long hope it helps!

      So I was not friends with my boss going in — we met at work. I have issues around friendship that I’m handling in therapy. Boundaries-wise I followed my boss’s lead (but we have a big age gap and they also mentored me). However, I occasionally checked in with them, make sure the lines weren’t blurred between personal life and work. What helped is starting conversations as either friends or work for instance, “speaking as your friend…” or “As the ___ here’s my concerns”.
      We made sure not to use work time for friendship convos — including lunch. I focused on developing other friendships, so that this was not my only social outlet. While we did talk about personal things (we both had signficant events occur) we did not hang outside of work while they supervised me. In front of others we were polite and more cool, so no references to inside jokes or mentioning each other’s non-work life.
      We are still friends (they no longer manage me). It’s been rewarding to be only friends with them, as now I’ve added them on social media, we can text more, etc.

    3. Lizy*

      I was friendly with my supervisor after I moved (Facebook friends, messaged every so often to see how things were, but nothing more than that). I moved back and ended up working for the same company. Day 1, she said that she was going to de-friend me on Facebook and would not connect with me on any other social media. I can’t remember what else she said, but essentially she made it clear that she was entering supervisor-mode and although she was interested in me and enjoyed my company, she didn’t want any blurred lines. She was very open about how this is as much for my benefit as hers – she didn’t want me worrying about what my supervisor thought if I posted/did X and she didn’t want to worry about how me doing X might affect my work (because it’s separate). She said when/if I left the company again (not that she wanted me to), she would love to re-friend me on social media and of course continue the friendship. I did end up moving (again) and left the company, and we’re still connected on social media years later!

      I do think our relationship is a little different in that she was always my supervisor first, and became my friend afterwards, but I would think/hope as long as you guys have boundaries and openness you should be ok.

    4. Esmeralda*

      It may work for you and your friend, but it is not likely to work for your friend’s other direct reports, your coworkers, etc. Even if you are not getting preferential treatment, people will reasonably worry that you are or could be.

      What if your friend has to decide who to layoff? She may feel obliged to lay off you so that it doesn’t look preferential, or maybe she reasonably for work reasons keeps you on but it’s going to look to others like you got special treatment. What if your work is crappy but you don’t get penalized? What if you get a raise/bonus/promotion?

    5. TechWorker*

      I think it’s difficult for it to actually be totally fine – but it’s also common in my company because we hire grads and organise lots of social stuff. It’s pretty common for people to become friends outside of work and later end up in a reporting relationship.

      My partner (who also works for the same company, we met at work, go figure) was pretty good friends someone who was a peer & then later promoted to become his manager (though no longer is). This honestly, didn’t go great and has definitely impacted their friendship. Said manager was not that good at managing managers and my partner ended up feeling micro-managed and under-valued – which meant they basically stopped hanging out.

      On my side, I was friends-ish (not super close, but we went on the same group holiday) with someone who later moved to report to me. I have taken a step back from the friendship and kinda avoid spending much/any time together outside of work events – but don’t think I would have thought to have done even that were it not for AAM.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve worked with couples and friends all the times. It’s never been an issue as long as both people are solid individuals who don’t make things weird.

      If you keep “friendship” out of the work place that’s the first huge step. Lots of people won’t even know. Listen, I supervised my partner once because we needed someone BAD and couldn’t find it the traditional routes, so we hired my partner who needed a job change. The only people who knew we were even together were the boss because of full disclosure duh and my direct reports at the time just because it was an easier transition between “We can’t find ANYONE” and a turnstile we had setup and then suddenly “this person shows up and finally clicks, what happened here, where did you find this person finally?!” kind of thing.

      After we had someone leave, we didn’t make it a thing. When I finally left, I mentioned it in my parting and the people who didn’t know where shocked that they didn’t even know. I treated my partner the same, I spoke to them the same, I corrected them when necessary, etc. If you treat everyone equal in the first part, even if in the back you’re having a more personal relationship, it is pretty chill and easy. Unless someone is prone to bad management or favoritism then it’s just…not a lot of worry.

  23. Semaj*

    My boss overly edits my work and I’m trying not to be sensitive about it.

    A coworker and I partner on projects that involve creating resources and webpages for the organization. We research, collaborate on the content, and polish it off before sending to boss. Then, he rewrites almost every sentence with edits that aren’t about content but just slightly adjusting the phrasing. It seems unnecessary and a bit prickling for it to be so hugely overdone, and it leaves me wondering why he doesn’t do it himself if he’s so specific about the phrasing of each and every sentence.

    I am being sensitive about this for sure, but also my coworkers and I are seasoned professionals and the content we put out I genuinely believe it good.

    So what gives – any tips on not caring or approaching this differently? I honestly don’t think I could ask for feedback because truly the content is changing, they’re just rewriting sentences to mean the exact same thing with different sentence structure.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oooh, this kind of thing burns me up. I used to work for someone who did this. I work for someone now who occasionally does this. It’s because they insist on putting their stamp on things, even if it’s unconscious. And yes, it’s not, “Hmm, I think we should make a different point here,” it’s, “I’m going to use different words to say the exact same thing.” My current boss has even acknowledged this! He’ll tell me my phrasing is wrong and then he’ll say, “Well, I guess it’s not wrong, but I would say it this way instead.” And he changes it.

      It’s so hard to remove yourself from it. I used to take it really personally, and sometimes I still do, because I think I’m a good writer and I put a lot of care into phrasing and word choice. (There was one time when I was SO PROUD of a sentence I wrote– seriously, just the one, it was a slide header– and the senior person changed it. Sigh.) The only thing you can really do is roll your eyes, shake your head, and move on to the next thing. Fully expect him to change things. This doesn’t mean you should put in less effort– I mean, you probably can, but I find that tough– but just prepare yourself for this happening.

      Does your co-worker get annoyed by this too? You can create a game with each other. Take bets on how many changes the boss makes or something.

    2. ThinMint*

      I still think asking your boss about it is a good idea.

      “I notice that when we pass our work to you, you usually have a lot of edits. I don’t want to unnecessarily take up your time. Is there something you’d like to see us do differently for these documents in the future?”

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Sooooo…this is challenging and I’ve struggled with this. But I changed my mental position on it and have been doing much better. I’ve started to think of my work as my boss’s work, so it doesn’t belong to me, it really belongs to the company. I’m laying the groundwork for my boss and they will take it from there.
      It sucks to think of yourself as just a cog in the big machine, but you eventually gain enough experience that you will be the final editor.

    4. Academic Librarian too*

      Mostly I understand the Boss which doesn’t mean I think that they are right.
      One, the Boss is not capable of actually creating the content.
      Two, the Boss has a “style” preference.
      Three, the Boss sees the materials as reflecting themselves therefore will change as they see fit. Don’t take it personally, let it go. It’s a job.

      OR
      the Boss is a micromanager and has to pee on everything.
      Don’t take it personally, let it go. It’s a job.

    5. a username*

      The exact same sentence with different structure could be a matter of institutional voice, which can feel petty but with organizations that users frequently read materials from, they can for lack of a better term form a relationship with that voice and can actually find it jarring when it’s noticeably different. I’ve worked under a director who had been with our employer his entire career and had basically formed the modern iteration of the voice himself, and was very protective of it. I had colleagues tell me I nailed it faster than most, and even occasionally got a document by with no or only one or two edits, but even I had to submit everything to him before distribution. Could it be something like that here? Even if your boss isn’t protective like mine was, are their parts of the institutional voice you haven’t quite nailed? Try looking and seeing if the types of adjustments he makes are consistent, if there’s something you could conform to more closely.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yeah — voice can really matter. And I obviously have no idea what kind of writer the OP is, but if she happens to be someone where writing isn’t a great area of strength and it is for the boss … well, the boss is going to edit.

        Re: “why didn’t he just write it himself” — it’s way faster to just edit a draft than write from scratch. And editing is a separate job from writing; this might be perfectly role-appropriate.

        Or it could be all unnecessary, for all I know. But there are lots of situations where the boss would be acting appropriately.

        Of course, I’m the daughter of a newspaper editor of whom a reporter once said, “He’s like a dog who has to pee on every tree.” So maybe that’s genetic.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Going along with institutional voice, it could also be the medium — writing content for a website is going to sound completely different than writing for a newspaper, even if the subject matter is the same. Writing for the web is supposed to aim at a 5th grade reading level — there’s a whole rubric for “grading” text based on the number of sentences and number of syllables — because people read differently on the web than they do a book. So word changes that mean the same thing, happy vs. delighted, might seem petty, but they affect the reading level of a piece.

    6. Bagpuss*

      It is frustrating.

      Ideally, I think it’s worth speaking to him and asking whether he wants you to just give him bullet points and let him write the article, instead, or indeed to ask him if he can clarify what his concerns are about your style so you can address them. Maybe make the point that his edits appear to be about style rather than substance and that it seems inefficient for him to make that kind of change, unless of course he has a significant issue with your style.
      If that doesn’t work, or if you feel it wouldn’t go down well, then is it possible to look at the way in which the style he uses if different from your and to try to aim for something closer to his style in your original draft? It’s frustrating, but if he is more senior and prefers a certain style then think of it as the ‘house style’ and maybe run with that?

    7. Donkey Hotey*

      Tech writer here. I feel your pain. To be charitable, composing and editing are different skill sets, so it’s understandable why your boss doesn’t just do it himself. At the same time, personal word choice edits can be frustrating, especially in the absence of a style guide. I’ve had a boss who would edit something (e.g. change “credible” to “believable”), I’d re-do and re-submit, and they would change it again, often reversing their previous edits!
      I like the previous suggestion of game-ifying it. “You had twelve edits, I had fourteen. You win this round.”
      Beyond that, the only way I can put it is to take my ego out of the equation. This isn’t my child that I must watch being operated on. It’s a document. The person higher up on the food chain is making changes and it’s my job to go with it unless it is absolutely legally or grammatically wrnog.
      (yes, that was intentional)

      1. Mockingjay*

        I call those kinds of edits “Happy” to “Glad” changes. Used to drive me nuts. Now I’m like: whatever, it’s ultimately your product and your name will be on it, not mine, which makes the final responsibility yours.

    8. Workerbee*

      Just adding on to say that I’ve observed those types can be unable to recognize their own work and set to with their editing pen, wondering out loud how it could have been written that way in the first place! I work with two of them right now. It can be amusing…but it still ends up creating extra work with the rounds of review and revisions. True satisfaction seems ever elusive.

      In cases where you are stuck in a loop, in a previous job we used to get away with a Courtesy Copy that was not for additional review or edit, just an FYI of the final piece that’s going out.

    9. RagingADHD*

      I would bring it up and ask if there’s anything I need to take on board in terms of matching the desired voice & tone.

      Tone is a real consideration in branding, and many companies have specific guidelines as part of their style sheet.

      If your org doesn’t already have a voice & tone document, maybe you could offer to create one, which would turn an annoyance into an accomplishment.

    10. Esmeralda*

      I’ve been an editor (technical and not), have advanced degrees in English, taught writing, do communications for our department as part of my job. I am a good writer and an outstanding editor, which my boss knows and praises me for.

      If my boss wants to fiddle with the sentences but the meaning is the same and the new sentences are truly not impeding understanding, well, then, they can go for it. It’s a waste of their time, but hey, it’s their time, not mine. BTDT.

      It’s not a love letter. It’s not the novel you’ve secretly been polishing for years (which, by the way, will get edited before it’s published). It has nothing to do with YOU. It’s work.

      Also, I’ve noticed that a lot of people just like to put their personal stamp on things. Unless that stamp makes the work worse and it gives me a bad rep because others will think it’s MY stamp, I just ignore it and move on to the next project.

      Remember: (1) It’s just work, it’s not your body and soul. (2) It’s your boss, they get the last word. (3) It’s not taking any of your time, and you probably have a lot of other work to do.

    11. SparkleConsultant*

      My boss holds my work up in many rounds of intensive edits. A couple strategies that have helped me are:
      1. Do your own writing projects outside of work to have a way to express your writing voice (I like NaNoWriMo!)
      2. Set a time limit for the initial draft and speed write it. Then you can go back and edit, but this helps me not get too attached to individual sentences as I’m crafting them. They will just be torn apart later.
      3. Re-frame requests for a document as your boss needing a template, not a draft. (Because that is the outcome of what is happening). Sometimes I pretend I work for a newspaper since my boss is overly invested in playing editor. These both help me not take it as personally.
      4. If your boss then uses this as a way to take credit for your work, document when you’ve given them the first draft in the body of the email so that you have proof of your authorship. (I hope this isn’t the case for you)

    12. Bex*

      Is Boss is making consistent edits across different projects? If so, it could be a matter of voice or tone, as other posters mentioned.

      I’m in a partnerships/bus dev role so I’m the last person to edit before something goes to a client or external stakeholder. My edits are often extensive. I change all passive voice to active . I rearrange sentences so that the most important part is first, followed by explanatory phrases and descriptions. If someone uses 15 words where 10 will do, then I change to the 10 word option. If a sentence is repetitive or doesn’t add anything new and relevant, I remove it. I shift framing to reflect what I know of the client’s worldview. I ensure that we explain and position things consistently across the company.

      So someone might write a very good draft, and it will still come back 70% red once I do my job. And the content likely didn’t change much at all.

    13. CC*

      If I were you, I’d ask if I could sit next to your boss and watch them edit my work once or twice, while they verbalize what they’re doing. (Literally watch them read and type and ask them to say what they’re thinking out loud. Don’t interrupt for broader questions; don’t argue — just watch and listen and try to understand your boss’s unfiltered thoughts about your writing.) I’ve been on both the receiving end of that kind of feedback and used it with my staff, and nothing works better to very quickly get aligned about why the editor is changing what they are.

      And I am that boss! I really don’t try to be, but…sometimes sentence structure really matters for clarity. Sometimes the tiniest edits make a big difference in tone and voice. Sometimes certain words aren’t quite right (I work in a nonprofit/political context and if a certain word isn’t quite what our allies are using, using that word could lead to an angry phone call from an important stakeholder). And sometimes I have staff who are really really awesome at 90% of the job but their writing is a liiiiitle too sloppy and I’d rather spend the 5 minutes tweaking it every week than the hours that coaching someone whose writing is just a tiny bit off would take.

    14. Wordybird*

      A former supervisor of mine was like this, and it drove me crazy — especially since I’m the one with the English degree and he had a completely unrelated-to-communications background. It really drove me crazy when he would have me draft something for him to edit, and then he would not completely proofread it before sending it along so there were occasional spelling errors, stray commas, possessive apostrophes when he just needed an “s” for pluralization, etc. They were all his errors not mine. Don’t get me started on how I would take minutes at our meetings and he would add in context/details that were never said at the meeting!

      I had to accept that this was just the way it was going to be. It was not a communications org, just an org that does some communications, so the things that bothered me were not things that most other people noticed or cared about. He was also used to the high turnover in the role so he never quite let go completely of the tasks associated with it (self-fulfilling prophecy, anyone?) and had been at the organization long enough that things were done the way he was used to because of his seniority. While I tried to speak with him about it several times, he was one of those types who told you what you wanted to hear and then did nothing about it afterwards. Since it was not a long-term position or a company where I could move up or make more money, I just gritted my teeth and bore it.

      I tend to think that people like that fall into two different categories: those who are genuinely trying to be helpful (but don’t realize they aren’t) or those who are purposely trying not to be helpful (and are very aware of it). What kind is your boss?

    15. Diatryma*

      This may be a style guide situation. Ask if there is a style guide, and if there isn’t, you can see about putting one together. Everything from abbreviations to numbering conventions to prose-level rules (“Use short sentences whenever possible. Semicolons and parentheses should be avoided.”) can be included. The one I made for my previous job included margin/tab measurements because they weren’t consistent over multiple documents.

  24. SQLDev*

    Is it worthwhile to pursue a professional certification (in software development) that is being discontinued with no plans for replacement?

    Background: I work in ETL/SQL development and am looking to change companies. My current employer is my only post-college employer (>5 years). I was planning on completing a Microsoft certification in BI development to strengthen my candidacy, but I saw that they are discontinuing the certification in January 2021 and they don’t plan to replace it with anything equivalent. I guess all they care about now is Azure…

    I’m debating if it’s still worthwhile to get the cert. On the one hand, this is my only chance to get it. On the other hand, I’m not going to be able to keep it up to date.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What are you hoping the certification would give you? A leg up on the job search? I don’t work in SQL development (though I’ve dabbled in it at various jobs), but I work in IT, and I 100% don’t care at all if an applicant has a certification for anything. Certifications give me zero indication if they know anything worthwhile or can actually do well the job I’m hiring them for.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’d be concerned with why they are discontinuing it…it may be because the test was awful. I had to do a cert in either Oracle or SAS for BI Development and the exam was the most terrible, awful exam I have ever taken in my life. The test documents were minimal and there were no supporting resources. I had to take it 3 times and I still don’t know how I passed because the questions were the most out-of-the-blue random questions I’ve ever read.
      So it may be less about the subject being phased out and more about it being a bad cert to begin with.

    3. AnonQ*

      I think I (probably) know which certifications you’re referring to–Microsoft is revamping everything, and certain things are going by the wayside. With that said, I think the certification is still worthwhile. Especially if your company will pay for it. Not all companies are moving at the same speed as Microsoft. Your new role may still include ETL/SQL, so the certification will stand you good stead. Even if the new role is different, the certification shows you have solid skills that I assume will be related to your new roles.

      (If this were a certification that was simply being updated/replaced, of course I would say forget the old one, get the new one.)

      But also start to look at learning what else you can learn to build your skillset. Again, especially if your current company provides some funding for taking classes, etc.

      I see what Anonymous Educator said in a separate post about not caring about certs, but also consider that many roles have certification requirements and/or the initial weeding-out of resumes is likely to be done by HR, not a hiring manager. So while a hiring manager may truly not care, in my own experience, HR does not always have the level of expertise and may rely on more quantifiable “proof” in the vetting process.

    4. Anon for this*

      So I work for one of those old-fashioned companies AnonQ mentioned, on the business side but doing a lot of work with the DB teams. Most of our SQL team is already being retrained on our new cloud tools, and our SQL servers are going to go away as we move to cloud platforms. It already takes c-level approval to get a new SQL server spun up even though we have licenses available.

      it’s not what you asked, but if it was me I’d focus my development more on cloud tools/architecture if I wanted to stay on the IT side, or move over to data analysis to go into the business.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I know this field well.
      I would still go for the cert.
      The “industry” is going towards Azure yes, but there’s always companies out there, maybe even the majority, who aren’t moving there yet and want candidates with demonstrated knowledge of the BI ‘stack’.
      Have you looked into Power BI at all? if not, that’s also worth pursuing imo.
      Longer term look to branch out/expand into cloud data analytics, may or may not be exclusively Microsoft technologies.
      I’d suggest you take a more holistic view of the certs ‘market’ right now and see what you might be able to move sideways into.

  25. BRR*

    Looking for advice on feeling a little stuck. About a year ago, I was laid off from an extremely toxic job/workplace. Thankfully I found a new job right away and while it is a huge improvement over my last job in many areas (my coworkers are nice and good at their jobs, my work is valued, and my commute went from awful to good), it was a big step down in terms of responsibility and pay.

    So while my mental health has dramatically improved, most of my work is simply not challenging at all. Additionally, the sheer quantity of work is way too much for one person. I’ve been utilized somewhat for the more advanced skills that my predecessor did not have, I simply don’t have the capacity to take on more of the interesting stuff. 

    So basically I work on stuff that’s way too easy and there’s too much of it. It’s more or less the role I was hired for and while I think my manager would like to be able to better utilize me, there’s not a way to elevate my position. The basic work, that anybody could easily be trained on, can’t be assigned elsewhere and it’s basically unheard of here to elevate someone’s current position (aka going from teapot coordinator to teapot manager). I was loosely keeping an eye out for new jobs but I work in a more niche field in nonprofits and the already small number of job postings seem to have dried up during Covid. 

    Other than continuing to keep an eye out for new openings which I’m doing, is there anything else I can do since I can’t grow at my current organization?

    1. Exhausted Trope*

      Oh, wow, does your post apply to me! It reads like something I would have written.
      I’ve been actively hunting for about a year now trying to to move up as my current position has zero room for growth. Like you, I get stuck with all the busy, mind-numbing work others don’t want to do or aren’t capable of (no training).
      I hate the situation but since COVID-19, I’ve gotten very little responses to any of my applications. Don’t know what to do.

    2. Cabin in the Woods*

      Is there any way to start to automate some of the tasks? Or otherwise improve on efficiency? Even if you’re instinct is to say “No,” make yourself pause and really think about it. If you HAD to figure out a way to automate or be more efficient with it somehow, what could some of your options be? My thought is maybe you can decrease the time needed for these tasks and then open up time for taking on more interesting projects.

  26. AVP*

    For women who are pregnant in supportive but small companies (ie., there’s going to be some scrambling to cover my projects, maybe a temp that I’ll need to train, etc) – when did you tell your boss? And what is a reasonable parental leave to ask for?

    My company is tiny to the point where this has never come up before, but I believe they’ll be supportive and try to make a good system here, but I’d like to go in with reasonable expectations in case they ask me for input on what I’d want to do.

    1. Swarley*

      I actually just found out I was pregnant with my first child! I work for a moderate-sized non-profit, and had originally planned to wait until the 2nd trimester to say anything. However, with the COVID situation I ended up telling only my supervisor about it right now, just because as we roll out a plan for us to come back into the office (we’re almost all remote right now) I wanted her to be aware that I may still need the option for remote work. Plus, this gives us time to plan out coverage (while we’re not as small as it sounds like you are, there are things that really only I can do so I’ll need to train her or another team member). Thankfully she is incredibly supportive and is keeping mum from everyone else. I’d say this is mostly a know your boss situation.

      In terms of leave, is there a handbook that already lays out what leave is offered (both paid and unpaid?) I’d start there and then talk with either your boss and/or HR rep (if there is one) about what options are available for expanding it (if needed).

    2. Ann Perkins*

      I’ve always told early, but I carry completely in my mid-section and show early too. My company is small enough that it has rarely come up for us as well. I’ve taken off about 10 weeks with both of my births. The second time, my boss just wanted me to come back because it was going to be around the time of a particularly busy time period (tax time). I would still check your handbook to see if there’s anything laid out.

    3. Ranon*

      I work for a six person company, I told at ~16 weeks, and I took six months (unpaid) and came back on an 80% schedule when I returned. I was in the very fortunate position of being quite good at my job while not needing it from a financial standpoint so I just asked for what I wanted and didn’t worry about being reasonable- and I got it!

      Truthfully no one really acted like I was really, truly, going to have the baby and not be there besides me until 35 weeks, so I wouldn’t worry too much about 12 vs. 16 vs. 20 weeks- just get stuff documented and ready to hand off so when they panic in your late third trimester you’re ready to go.

      1. Ranon*

        I should add that part of my reasoning was since my leave wasn’t protected by FMLA I didn’t see a reason to limit my request to three months when I could make longer work on my side- it’s not like my job was less protected (especially as in my field three months is definitely long enough that stuff would need to be handed off)

    4. Aurora Leigh*

      Even though your company is too small to make you eligible for FMLA, I do think it’s worth asking for the equivalent (12 weeks no pay after vacation time used up). But maybe the company will surprise you and offer something better!

    5. Another JD*

      I told my boss at 14 weeks. 12 weeks is the standard American maternity leave, though it’s not nearly enough. I couldn’t even roll over without pain at that point. I have friends who went back at 6 weeks and they were miserable. Figure out what leave you’re entitled to (state laws vary), what’s in your handbook, how much PTO you have, and how much potentially unpaid time off you can afford, then go from there.

    6. Sarah*

      I was pregnant in March and told my boss around 12 weeks; that pregnancy ended in a miscarriage and it was really hard to have to tell my boss about that. I’m pregnant again and will be waiting until 20 weeks this time around, after my anatomy scan (I’m 16w now). It’s a personal choice and you should do whatever feels right to you! I would consider your ideal family leave situation before you bring anything to your boss so that you have some sort of plan in mind and aren’t just dropping news. Congrats!

    7. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

      Two pregnancies/maternity leaves, roughly two years apart, same tiny company, two very starkly different economic times, and two different roles within the company, with differing results!

      Immediately-prior-to-the-Great-Recession-Babycakes: I was on a jobsite, only in the office roughly once a week. The jobsite folks knew at roughly 12 weeks. The office, closer to 18 weeks. There was no need for anyone to cover my position while I was out for 8 weeks as we had sufficient hands on deck. My small employer (roughly a dozen people including ownership) paid an outstanding 50% of my pay for my entire leave; short-term disability through the DuckthatQuacksCompany that I’d purchased covered the rest. To be made whole in the USA while working for a tiny company that is NOT subject to FMLA = doing pretty darn good.

      Middle-of-the-GR-holy-toot-here-we-go-again-Babycakes: I was back in the office, having been recalled to a different department. Because of layoffs, pay downgrades, and benefit cuts, things were HINKY financially and everyone knew it. I think I was about 24 weeks when I finally told the owner. There had been cutbacks to the point where unlike before, I couldn’t just parcel out what I did eight different ways. The hands weren’t there, we were all pretty close to the “F-this-crap” point, and my roll now was significantly larger than it had been the first time. They hired a temp. Red flag: if you need to hire a temp for someone with a quirky skill set, start looking early. Its going to take a while to find a reasonable temporary candidate for specialized gold inlay design on Scottish styled teapots. I wound up taking 10 weeks due to medical necessity, but the paid maternity had been cut in the previously mentioned “benefit cuts”. I still had the Quacking Short Term Disability policy, and it covered up to 60% of my pay, which was better than nothing.

      For clarity: The cut in maternity paid leave had been made so that they had something on paper when they had to show a financial partner that they were making attempts. The owners literally tried to grandfather me in under the old rules once they found out that I was expecting again, and simply were not able to. When they made the change, they literally said “Well NQAFT has a newborn, we’ll be able to be back to normal before this is an issue again!” when they were looking for places to make cuts.

    8. AVP*

      Thank you all! This is really helpful. It’s very early for me now but I like to have a plan in mind and now I can start formulating!

    9. Anon for this*

      I told my work when I was like 2 months along and it was still a total shit show during my leave. It would have helped of the higher ups hadn’t pushed out my boss right before I left and had hired for my co-position with more than 3 weeks overlap.

  27. Qwertyuiop*

    I work in a small office where you hear everything, whether you want to or not. My boss’s office is only a few feet from my desk and he talks very loudly. He was talking with my assistant manager about something and I heard my boss say, “Qwerty didn’t enter it!” Now, I’m sitting at my desk and overhear this. They didn’t call me in, but I still heard it. Should I approach them if I hear my name? Should I follow up later with him? I’m not sure what to do when this happens.

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      If it were me, every time I heard my name I would show up and ask what Boss wanted. When he gave me a perplexed look, I would say, “I heard you call my name.” And repeat until he learned to close his door or lower his voice. But I’m feeling cantankerous today, it might not be the best approach!

    3. anon for this*

      In a similar situation I once piped up with a loud “Qwerty did too enter it!” They learned to talk more quietly.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Maybe you were just in shock and didn’t know what to do, but in the future, I’d definitely pop up and say you’d heard your name and then ask if they had any questions.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Did you “enter it”? (assuming you know what they are referring to!) i.e. … are they talking about a perceived mistake/omission you made, and are you actually ‘guilty’ of that?

      I would ask your boss about it later but probably wouldn’t interrupt their discussion, especially if it seems to be a one off incident.

  28. Lucia*

    I have Assistant in my title, and recently took over the duties of a manager who left. I had no training or heads up, or anything. I was just told “____ is gone, you’ll be taking over his duties.” I barely know what I’m doing. I’m not getting a pay raise or promotion since they’re looking to fill the position. I don’t feel appreciated and only recently got a thank you after over a month. I’ve been told by a few people I’m doing a great job, but my boss has been increasingly rude and condescending. Today, she was on PTO and a manager asked me to do something and I did it. Apparently it’s a new company policy that this thing has to be approved by her. I didn’t know this and she berated me for “not letting her make this decision.” Am I supposed to be able to read her mind? I don’t know if I really have a question, I guess I’m just ranting.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Oh no. No advice, just commiseration. I’ve been in the position of suddenly having to step into the position of a departed manager with no compensation, too. It sucks. I hope someone has really good advice for you – all I can say is hang in there!

  29. Elk Club*

    My boss is retiring in approximately 5 months. I am promised her position and will go from 80K to 110K. I will go from supervising 4 to supervising 1.

    One of the people I supervise right now is draining me. It has been 8 years of back and forth with HR. Several write-ups. Many meetings of ‘if this doesn’t improve…” and still the person, who has outright lied multiple times, works here. We are in a state classified system and that combined with different FMLA and ADA things mean he will likely never be let go.

    I think my boss and my grandboss have hoped that getting some distance between me and this person will alleviate my frustrations. But I feel like then I would just be removed from the drama enough to have to coach someone else through managing it, when it really the person should be let go.

    There are some positions opening up in my area for 95K and no supervision. Am I crazy to consider those when I know 110K and a job I know the pros and cons of are waiting for me?

    1. Colette*

      It doesn’t hurt to look around. (And 95K vs 110K is not life-changing money. You presumably can live comfortably on 95K.)

    2. Too old for this*

      I would definitely look into the jobs that are open in your area. Exploring your options is not the same as quitting and taking a new job. There is no use agonizing about whether you should leave the job you have until you know your options. And, “I have been promised her job” is absolutely not the same as, ” I have the job”

    3. Potatoes gonna potate*

      95 and 110k are not a huge difference IMO. And while boss is retiring and honestly…you just never know. Promises are just that, unless there’s a contract, things can always change and you may not end up getting that position.

      either way I don’t think it’ll hurt to look around.

    4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’d stay put for the 110M job, divest myself mentally of managing your malcontent, and stick around for the job you’ve been promised. If it doesn’t come through, then I’d jump ship.

    5. Viette*

      I think you should take the new, $110k job and look around a bit at the same time. Five months is not very long in terms of a casual job search; it’s unlikely you’ll get an offer for a new job by then unless you’re really putting all your effort into it. If you get into the $110k job and it’s actually pretty great, you can stop looking. If you get into the $110k job and it’s mediocre, you can compare and contrast to other offers and make an educated choice.

      If you get into the $110k job and it’s the effing worst, you can take a new job in short order. If your bosses at the old job say, “what?? no, you just TOOK this job! how could you!” you can say, “yeah, and I’m still dealing with all of the same stuff that frustrated me about my previous position. I know from experience that it’s not going to get any better, so I’m leaving.”

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A lot of people are going to put up with a lot for 110k because it’s probably more than they can imagine making. If you go to a job that’s 95k to start, you can probably make your way to 110k over the course of a few years anyways, so it’s not going to set you back that far.

      But even without the supervision being on your plate, at the 95k job, you may run into a coworker who you don’t like and won’t be taken care of any differently than your job now. Sure you aren’t their manager but it’s still just as draining if it’s the right kind of energy suck. I wouldn’t let someone run you out of a job you generally like and do well at, you need to learn to compartmentalize your feelings and remove them from your being stuck in your teeth, so to speak.

      In the end, you know your situation and how much the money means to your life. How much you need/want it.

      I have my own “You have to pay me at least X amount to deal with stuff that would otherwise drag me down.” and that may or may not be the same number as others. Someone told me they wouldn’t take our CEO job without making XXXXXXX amount and that it’s underpaid. Well everyone jumps at that chance when it’s been open and they’re fine doing so because it’s a handsome salary for a whole lot of folks.

    7. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’m not sure what you mean by a “state classified system,” but if you’re referring to state government, and if it is anything like *my* state government, nobody can realistically “promise” you anything. Good state hiring processes generally try to be as fair and as impartial as possible. If I were you, I would not be counting on getting that job after your boss retires. For one thing, at that salary level, you will be competing against many other applicants. And while I admit it’s unlikely, the Hiring Manager for that vacancy could decide to take the job in a different direction, requiring different skills from what you have now, so you may not end up being as competitive for it as you think. There’s absolutely no harm in looking around and even interviewing (if you’re called). I hope you’ll check out what’s out there.

  30. Hotdog not dog*

    I’ve been seeing some things that strike me as odd during my current job search. The other day I had what I can only describe as a “bait and switch” interview. I applied for a full time management position and was called for an in person interview. It is worth noting that I applied on the first day of the posting, was called the second day, and interviewed on the fourth day. At the conclusion of the interview, the hiring manager casually mentioned that the job was already filled, but they were still looking for part timers at minimum wage. WTF was that about? I’m also finding that many online applications require me to enter a number for a salary requirement in order to even submit. While I have a general idea what these jobs should pay, the ranges are rarely listed in the posting. I dislike having to throw out the first number before the application is even submitted! Is this normal? It’s been a few decades since I last did this, and I know that times change, and Covid, and lots of competition, but it just seems to be rigged for the companies involved to find the cheapest, not necessarily the best, employees. What is the best way to address these issues? I really want to find a good fit for both myself and my new employer without having to play silly games.

    1. asleep at the disco*

      1) That sounds like classic bait and switch, yeah.

      2) I put 0 in salary requirements when it’s a requirement in the form.

      1. Hotdog not dog*

        It never occurred to me to put zero…certainly a better idea than agonizing over trying to guess the correct number of jellybeans in the jar!

    2. Amber Rose*

      It’s normal, it sucks, and I’ve stood up and walked out of interviews where this has been pulled on me a handful of times.

      1. Hotdog not dog*

        I don’t understand what the company hopes to accomplish. If they want part time workers, they’re unlikely to attract any by advertising for a full time management position! They are wasting their own time as well as mine. If it happens again I will definitely walk out.

  31. Stabbity Tuesday*

    So I work for a family business as part of the family, my direct supervisors work under my grandfather and father, and over my mom, my cousins are involved, we’re all over the place. Unfortunately, since we all have the same last name (and it’s the name of the company) this means that I’ll be in meetings my boss is leading with potential clients and they’ll refer to the owner of the company, who everyone else calls “Mr Tuesday” as “Stabbity’s grandfather”, and I can’t help feeling like it’s a bit unprofessional. I know it isn’t exactly a secret, but it seems like a weird time to bring it up.
    Anyway is there a way I can ask my boss to just call my mom by her first name before I get annoyed and say something mildly rude? Or is this something I just need to suck up? I can’t figure out a way to phrase it without sounding irritated or petulant, and trying to work it into conversation that I call them all by their first names at work seems like it’ll just sound weird.

    1. Colette*

      Do you call him Mr Tuesday in meetings? If not, I’d suggest starting. At work, he’s the boss; not your grandfather. And then, before the meeting, ask them to refer to him as if you weren’t’ in the room.

      1. Stabbity Tuesday*

        I do call them all by their non-family names around clients when I refer to them at all, but that doesn’t really happen much because I’m usually only in meetings to answer specific questions about services, if that makes sense. I’d have to make a concerted effort to bring them up in order to use their actual names.

        1. Colette*

          I’d just mention it before the meeting, then. “Hey, sometimes people refer to Boss as “Stabbity’s grandfather in meetings. Please refer to him as Mr. Tuesday if he comes up in conversation.”

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      Back in the day, my father and uncle co-owned a business that employed several other family members, all with the same last name. We all called each other by our first names at work, and used “Uncle Mike”, etc. only at home. It’s weird at first calling your father by his first name, but we all got used to it eventually. Some of our clients never even realized we were all related!

      1. Hillary*

        Some of my childhood friends are still incredibly confused that my brother and I both call our parents by their first names if there are multiple people in the room who would respond to mom or dad. We’ve been doing it since we were teenagers. :-)

  32. Potential Job Conundrum*

    So I applied for a position with my husband’s job a few months back and they never got back to me. No big deal, it’s a career change for me and I know some places don’t hire spouses. Last week that hiring manager was fired and the replacement asked my husband to have me reapply. Great! I sent my resume and cover letter among. Monday they told him they received my materials and were “looking for a spot for me” but they haven’t reached out to me directly.

    There are multiple offices so I likely wouldn’t be working in the same place as my husband, and even if we were in the same office we wouldn’t have any overlap. I guess the question is, how do I ask for updates (not now, but in a couple weeks) when all communication has gone through my husband? It feels weird to email asking for updates when we haven’t been in contact, and normally I would never reach out just because I sent in an application. But they have expressed an interest, and I don’t want to go through my husband for status updates.

    1. Colette*

      I’d just treat it like another job application and move on unless/until they contact you. You don’t want to set the precedent that things go through your husband.

      1. Potential Job Conundrum*

        He has been there for several years, I have a lot of reasons to think this would be a good place to work. I am also unemployed during a pandemic so I’m willing to show them a little grace on this one.

        1. valentine*

          Horrible precedence.
          It’s also not good that they want to “find a spot” for you, as though it’s the company sportsball team or they’re doing hubs a favor. And are you sure you want to have all your eggs in one employer basket, especially now?

          It feels like the hiring manager initiating makes this different, but I don’t see how you wouldn’t wait and see, regardless of whether you sent the materials directly (ideal, but even worse that he then spoke to hubs about it) or hubs turned them in. Why wouldn’t he just use the original materials you sent, that are presumably what kicked this off? Although, how would he know who your husband is? Did your husband start all this by speaking to the new hiring manager?

          If your husband turned in the materials for you, sent your résumé

          1. Potential Job Conundrum*

            There are multiple of the same position open in different offices, which is where the “find a spot” thing came from. My eggs aren’t all in one basket, I’m not sure where you got that from.

            I sent my own materials, this was an offhand comment in the break room, he and the hiring manager are friendly normally. He was referred to this job years ago by a friend we both know, she referred me the first time. My application materials have been updated since I returned to school during this time, that’s why I sent in a new resume.

    3. Ranon*

      I’ve seen similar happen at my husband’s company when he’s referred old co-workers- the company can sometimes be more motivated to keep their current employees in the loop rather than the potential future employee even though arguably the potential future employee is the one that really needs the info! So it’s possible it’s more about you having any relationship at all with a current employee rather than the spousal relationship in particular.

      1. Potential Job Conundrum*

        Yes, I really think it was more along those lines. He didn’t hand in my resume or anything like that. Additionally they have multiple locations, so deciding where I would go would affect who I interviewed with which is why that part about “looking for a spot for me” was relevant.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      I’d probably reach out to them directly to confirm they received my materials and ask if they need anything else from me.

  33. Stuck in the Middle*

    Is there any way I can fix this or is this a “my managers sucks and won’t change” kind of situation? We collectively agreed to put a poor performer on a PIP earlier this year. It’s kind of a big deal at our office, it’s not done really at all, so I very much cleared it with my boss, their boss etc. Everyone was in agreement.

    Poor Performer has been pitching an absolute, ongoing, unprofessional fit ever since. She’s emailing my boss, my grand boss, HR, the CEO’s staff, the CEO herself on a daily basis complaining how it’s all my fault, I just hate her, her work is fine and I’m just out to get her. They have listened to her and responded to her. She will not drop it. They will not tell her to.

    Now she’s basically decided I’m not her supervisor. She cc’s my boss (at minimum) on nearly every email (although conveniently not on ones where she’s reporting back errors in data and the like). She won’t accept directions from me, she wants my boss and my grandboss and basically everyone else in management to verify what I tell her. We are incredible short staffed and all under tremendous time crunches and stress and this is an extraordinary waste of time. And no one will tell her to stop. I’m told I’m not allow to tell her to stop. This is basically par for the course at our office, with cowardly management who basically lets the loudest worst employees win just so they don’t have to deal with them.

    I’m ready to resign despite the damage to my career, financial well being, the PANDEMIC, health insurance. I’m basically not being allowed to do my job as her supervisor by her demand and my bosses inaction. For reference, I’ve never received anything less than the highest rating on my performance reviews, which is not typical in our office at all.

    Is there any way out of this but voluntarily becoming unemployed in a terrible economy?

    1. Colette*

      Is she meeting the terms of her PIP?

      (I think you need to have a conversation with your boss and ask her to, at a minimum, get everyone to stop replying, maybe after a single “Stuck in the Middle is your manager, she can answer your questions.”)

      1. asleep at the disco*

        I agree, they should redirect her to you. But I don’t know if that will solve the overall problem. Are they prepared to fire her, if it was that hard to get her on a PIP?

        1. irene adler*

          Exactly! If they won’t fire her for failing to meet the PIP terms, then she’s going to be there for as long as she wants to be.

    2. Potatoes gonna potate*

      I had a report just like this. I wish I had advice for you, in my case she ended up getting fired after a huge screaming fit in the open office. Until she did get fired, my direct boss and I had to grit our teeth and bare it as there was a lot of ugly politics at play but yeah we basically felt like we didn’t have hte autonomy to do our jobs and FIRE BAD PEOPLE (there were a few others in addition to this person).

      Only thing I’d advise is to not quit, and you have my sympathies.

    3. irene adler*

      First, don’t let this gal be the reason you derail your career, finances, etc.
      That makes her the “winner” here.
      Can’t have that.
      If she wants to email CEO, etc., let her. No matter the reason. They all know to ignore her. You need to ignore this too. Let it go-even the blaming you stuff. (yeah, I know, she’s wasting valuable time that could be used to complete tasks.)

      When she’s not willing to follow your direction, what is the consequence? I understand all are under a time crunch. But the consequence of this- who is that falling on? You? Or your bosses? I know you value your high performance reviews, but at what cost? Your health and sanity? Not acceptable.
      If Poor Performer is at the root of this, let the consequence fall on the managers. Make sure it is very clear Poor Performer’s antics are the reason for the delay and missed deadline (i.e. documentation of when tasks -with due dates-are assigned, completion time, etc.). Keep ’em posted about delays. But don’t offer to come to the rescue- let management decide how to remedy this.

      Meanwhile you need to conduct a job search.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Does this fit the definition of Malicious Compliance? Handle it as professionally as you can. You can’t stop her from griping to everyone and causing double the workload, but you can try to ignore the cc’d complaints and resign yourself to going with it. Until you find a new job though – you sound like way too good an employee to be held hostage to bad upper management.

        In the meantime, it sounds like she always wants someone else to require her to do the work you assigned but that’s on them to respond, not you. You gave the assignment, continue as though nothing else matters. If she doesn’t meet your deadlines or whatever else is in the PIP, document it all. Doesn’t matter if she said she was waiting on grand-boss or whoever to back up your request. Treat it like she only reports to you and she either does the work as assigned or gets dinged for it. It sounds like it won’t matter but document anyway. Then report up the chain each and every time she misses the mark and it affects the workflow. Missing stairs only work if people are able to ignore them. Don’t make that possible for anyone.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Yeah, I was thinking Malicious Compliance too. If she’s annoying the higher ups enough, maybe they’ll finally get backbones and deal with her. At least they’re sharing the pain.

          1. Stuck in the Middle*

            I have to say, the one bit of schadenfreude (sp?) I’ve gotten from this is my immediate boss complaining to me about how she doesn’t listen to what people tell her and can’t read instructions. Like, yeah man, I’m aware. Welcome to my nightmare of supervising her. I may have mentioned this issue a few 100 times by now?

            I think you’re right, sharing the pain, which they are now definitely all feeling now, is my only real hope that they’ll get it together and deal with her.

    4. valentine*

      If they won’t support you as a manager, by letting you fire her now or redirecting her to you, and cc’ing your manager (or everyone!) on her error emails, letting her run roughshod is another duty as assigned. Accept it. And start searching.

    5. Pamela Adams*

      Clearly, you care about this a lot more than your bosses. Quit caring. If you can figure a way to get a reasonable level of work with a minimum of friction, do that.

      1. WellRed*

        But she’s being bad mouthed in the office and undermined by her bosses. That’s an untenable position to be in and it will hurt her in the long run.

    6. BRR*

      Did they give you a reason why you can’t tell her to stop? Could you suggest that since she seems to work better with your boss she report to someone else? The other thing I tend to suggest when employers cater to the loudest employee is can you be louder? If it’s not as easy to just put it on you instead of actually managing, make it less easy to put on you.

    7. Observer*

      You can’t change your company. But you can find a job BEFORE you quit.

      Start looking. Hard.

  34. TabithaTwitchet*

    Any suggestions for team building within a telecommuting team that is taxed for time? (A time-taxed-telecommuting-team, as it were.)

    I manage a large team that is telecommuting because of the pandemic. People are overtaxed and grumpy and we need a team-building intervention, but all of my ideas are falling flat with my mid-managers because they think their folks don’t have time and will think it’s a waste or worse. Any strategies that have helped build community in an admittedly stressful time?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Can you say more about why you think team-building is the solution? Usually it’s not. If people are grumpy because they’re overtaxed and we’re in a pandemic, team-building won’t solve that (and could make it worse, if they conclude you’re oblivious to what’s actually going on). I’d listen to their managers on this.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Yeah, team building only gives them LESS time to get the work done and they already aren’t able to get it done as is.

        1. TabithaTwitchet*

          Maybe team-building is the wrong way to go about it. We rely on each other heavily to do our work and because people are juggling so much right now they are understandably snippy with each other and grumpy. I am looking for ways to help them communicate better with one another, treat each other with empathy, and recall the seemingly lost sense of team.

          I am also simultaneously encouraging folks to take time off when they need to take time off, block off their calendars when they need to be on their kid’s zoom call, and otherwise try to maintain some balance, and some people are doing that. We do work in pandemic-adjacent response, though, so it is a stressful job.

          1. BlueBelle*

            I would schedule some time at the beginning of each meeting for people to talk to each other. Laugh about all the BS we are all dealing with this pandemic. A good 5 minutes of every one of my meetings is us connecting with each other and asking how life is going. It helps us remember we are all human.
            I also had people send me photos (if they wanted) of their new coworkers- kids, animals, and spouses. I made a slide show and put it to music. I played it during our team meeting. We all had a good laugh and loved seeing everyone’s pets, kids, and spouses.
            For the next meeting I had people send me a picture of their desk/work set up and then I will have people guess who it belongs to.

              1. BlueBelle*

                These are all voluntary, and I don’t do them every team meeting. About once a month or every other month I will do something like that. It takes about 5 minutes at the start of the meeting and we usually end up chatting about it for another 5 minutes. It is part of our regular scheduled meeting so it isn’t taking additional time from them.

          2. JustaTech*

            In the Before Times my department did an outside seminar/training on “communication styles” that was incredibly useful because we realized that we didn’t all have the same communication style and that folks were getting upset because we weren’t communicating in ways that meshed well.

            Since we’ve all been WFH I’ve had to remind my teammates of that training once or twice when things started to fall apart. I also tried arranging some small web happy hours to basically remind us that the person on the other end of that email is human. It was medium successful, so I might try again, though of course the people I actually want to chat with are the people who never come (but they also never came in-person so… what can you do).

          3. BRR*

            Yeah team building is the wrong way to go about this. First, kudos to you for recognizing the issues and wanting to address them. Unfortunately I don’t really have great solutions. Remind people to remain professional with each other and model the behavior you expect of your team. If there’s any issues with work flow, address those. I had a few coworkers at my last job who were awful at their jobs and so there were team bonding issues because of a few weak links. No amount of team building could fix what were employee issues.

          4. PollyQ*

            Question: is everyone being snippy with each other more or less equally, or is it just a few people?

            If it’s everyone, then I’d call out the behavior directly at the next team meeting, and remind people that they need to treat each other with courtesy & respect. Hopefully, that will wake them up and remind them how they ought to be behaving.

            If it’s just a few people, then I’d still call out the behavior, but on a one-to-one basis.

            Basically, address the unprofessional behavior, without worrying too much about things like “lost sense of team,” which I’m not sure is something you can really encourage. IME, it either happens organically or not at all.

            Also, whatever you can do to reduce the burden on them is likely to have more effect on morale than anything.

          5. allathian*

            Sounds like they’re pretty stressed and close to burnout. When people are in that state, all they care about is getting their own job done to an acceptable degree. Empathy is one of the first things that goes out the window when people are stressed through overwork. Just ask me how I know. Team morale is pretty low on the list at that point, and any attempts to improve it will probably be met with derision if not outright contempt. If that contempt is obvious enough for you to see, they’re pretty far gone.

            Is there anything you can do decrease your team’s workload or bring in more people? That’s honestly probably the only thing that will help. Burnout can’t be cured with magic thinking.

        2. Artemesia*

          Team building is always dicey but more so in this situation. When I did team building it was always around actual work just as ice breakers for graduate/professional classes always were jump offs into the subject matter. i.e. we started class with something that helped students get to know each other and provide information for them to form the teams they would work in during the class BUT the content of the ice breaking activity was always to help begin framing the content of the work.

          In that frame, you might think about exercises that are a different way to approach the brainstorming or planning that is part of the work.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you want to reach out individually to some folks on your team (maybe during regular one-on-one meetings) to see what woudl make them feel less overtaxed and grumpy? I guarantee you none of them is going to say “I wish we had a team-building activity.” Maybe you can take some work off their plate or extend deadlines?

    3. mlk*

      Rather than team-building, can you try to recapture some time for the team–any meetings you can get rid of or combine, reduce the number of people who have to attend, maybe by having someone take notes and send out a summary, tighten agendas, reduce meeting length?

      The team I’m on has 6 people and we meeting weekly for a check-in. It’s scheduled for 30 minutes but we routinely run over to an hour and sometimes to 90 minutes. This week, 2 of us had a webinar at the 30 minute mark. I warned everyone I’d be running a timer. We ended up starting earlier but still finished in under 40 minutes. It was SO nice having a break before the 90 minute webinar started.

      1. mlk*

        Note: part of the extra time is joking around, catching up on personal stories (my kids’ school issues, pests invading apartments, etc.) or going into a more in-depth discussion of something we’re working on. I’m the only person with small kids.

      2. Bostonian*

        Yup. Give time back. If you can’t do it through time off (e.g., letting everyone have half day on a Friday), then look for meetings to reduce or eliminate.

    4. ...*

      When people are overworked and short on time, team building angers them because they feel they need to work extra to make up for the time spend team building. I would recommend sending care packages with gift cards or food and treats. That is what will make people happier.

      1. TabithaTwitchet*

        So funny, did you see the thread above “Please just give me raise, I don’t want a giftcard”? People have Feelings about this!

        1. Clisby*

          How many people signed on to “Please don’t give me a raise, I’d rather have team-building activities!” ? Even the lamest gift card, like Starbucks, is better than team-building. At least there’s a chance I know somebody I can pass the card on to.

    5. OtterB*

      My office has a standing Zoom lunch call one day a week. In the Before Times it was a brown bag lunch in the conference room – anyone who was in the office and felt like it could drop in. Discussion topics occasionally veer to work but are usually about kids / pets / hobbies / etc. It’s nice to get a chance to chat.

      We also have a “campfire” Slack channels for casual conversation.

      As others have said, don’t mandate something. But maybe make some opportunities available to reconnect with each other.

    6. Generic Name*

      It sounds like your team is burned out. Have they always been grumpy and hard to work with? If not, they probably need a break. Encouraging them to take time off is not enough. You need to adjust their workload so that they feel able to take time off. Honestly, if I were feeling the way I imagine your team is feeling and was then told that I need to attend “empathy training” or whatever, I’d be pretty pissed about it.

  35. Temporarily Anonymous*

    Job search question: In your experience is there more likely to be institutional never-gonna-be-fixed dysfunction in government work vs private sector?
    I need to move on before I become entirely jaded and bitter from the systematic dysfunction in my office and was thinking of trying private sector work next go-around because I thought perhaps an organization or business might be less stagnated and more likely to norporate change as needed. What do you think?
    (Note: Not in the U.S.)

    2. PX*

      Really depends on the company but you may have slightly better luck private sector. Ask a lot of questions about culture though! And I’d say size is also a big factor as well

    3. asleep at the disco*

      Both. They’re so big, there’s gonna be unfixable dysfunction pockets everywhere.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      My experience is in the US, YMMV, but I would say that the answer is no, not really. My partner is in the private sector and we often have common experiences with dysfunction – we see the same issues that usually boil down to whether your boss is competent or not. Many companies are fearful of lawsuits so don’t deal with poor performers any better than the government does. The one advantage the private sector has is that it can reorganize and lay people off without it being a big public deal, whereas in the government everyone and their brother get to weigh in. The advantage the government has is that salaries are set, and public, so you don’t get the unequal pay, unfair distribution of raises, type issues we often read about here.

  36. Detective JJ Bittenbinder*

    I hope this is okay to ask. I’m looking for work-wear recommendations as I transition from a casual workplace to one that’s more formal. Think dressier business-casual, if that makes sense. I’m a woman in my early/mid 20s working in financial services. Formal wear trips me up because I carry most of my weight around my midsection, so tucking in a shirt or a blouse makes me conscious as if I’m drawing attention to it.
    In my country dresses are not very commonly worn to work. I’m looking for recommendations as to what I can wear, specifically a combination of blouses/shirts and trousers that doesn’t require tucking in. I just want to get an idea of possible styles I can purchase, specific links may not work in my country unless they’re international brands (e.g. H&M or Zara). Thank you for reading!

    1. E.*

      I don’t know if MMLaFleur ships to your country, but I love their workwear, and love that they make it in many styles for all sorts of body shapes. I’ve also had luck finding their stuff on eBay.

      (Also: love your username. *g*)

      1. Detective JJ Bittenbinder*

        Thanks for the recommendation! I just checked it out and they’re only shipping in the US right now :( but I’ll look for similar pieces here.

        (Thank you! Rewatching John Mulaney specials to get over the awfulness of the pandemic)

      2. Policy Wonk*

        I have my go with everything black blazer that I use to dress up an otherwise casual outfit. I also have a couple of duster-length sweaters that serve the same purpose. In both cases they are long enough to be worn with an un-tucked blouse or top if needed.

          1. OtterB*

            She said dressier business casual, though, not formal. I would think of duster-length sweaters as appropriate for that.

      3. KuklaRed*

        In addition to the aforementioned Ulla Popken, I recommend J.Jill. Lots of great choices for work outfits, very good size range, and excellent quality. I get a lot of my pieces on ebay for much less than full price. Good luck with the new job!

    2. Ranon*

      The Boden Ravello tops are my fav- they’re loose but polished, they’re cut well at the bottom for tucking or not, and they’re machine washable

    3. OtterB*

      Ulla Popken is a plus-size company starting at size 12, if that works for you. I’ve always ordered from the US branch but I think they’re based in Germany so may have other options. I like their matte jersey separates, pants and non-tuck-in tunics / tops / jackets. They’re comfortable and I’m happy wearing them to work on a regular day (we are very much a business-casual environment) or to a meeting or a conference.

      1. KuklaRed*

        I love Ulla! A few years ago I got to fulfill a bucket list item by visiting their store in Amsterdam. I was in heaven and spent way too much money but everything was so amazing!

    4. Ann Perkins*

      I dress similarly these days with not wanting to tuck in shirts, and financial services/business attire. I typically wear nice dress pants with a smoothing high waist, then tunic style dressy shirt and cardigan, and nice accessories.

      Look up Talbots Chatham ankle pants and that’s the style I’m referring to for pants. My follow up question would be though, is a blazer typically the norm in your office? If not then stick with untucked shirts and cardigans and you’ll still look polished. If a blazer is the norm, shoot for longer blazers that will cover more of your hips.

    5. Me*

      Unless it’s a button down most blouses should not require tucking in. Top with a blazer and boom your done.

    6. PollyQ*

      The magic word is “tunic”! They can be worn over pants or skirts, and come in a variety of styles & fabrics. They often look nice worn with a ‘statement’ necklace or scarf as well.

    7. Observer*

      If blazers and jackets are too dressy, cardigans can work well. So you tuck the shirt in, but then you have the cardigan that kind of softens that.

  37. Academic Librarian too*

    Pretty low stakes but would like to stop thinking about this. Help me with a decision tree.
    I am a member of a non-profit professional organization that I care about but is in the middle of what can only be called an implosion. Been a member for about 20 years.
    Mostly I just pay my dues, it is on my CV and I am happy to be a member. I really liked the last President who resigned midterm due to the toxic atmosphere of the board.
    Just last week there was a zoom town hall of membership to remove a hostile board member (believe when I say his actions were cause) (one of about 20 board members)
    The a 60% of those voting voted for ouster. There needed to be 66% majority. He remains on the board. His term ends in 2022.
    Now what do I do?
    A. Become more active in the organization to minimize his toxic effects? (yet that would put me in his noxious site/sight) and it would be a time suck.

    B.Walk away and perhaps join a renegade organization that is forming.

    C. Continue to just pay my dues, shake my head and say I don’t have time for this nonsense.

    Is there something else that I haven’t thought of?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      How much emotional bandwidth do you have? That seems to me to the factor here. One of the issues with renegade organizations is that they are often founded in opposition. Which means as time passes, they can struggle to be organized when their source of resistance is removed. I’m not sure that helps.

      1. Academic Librarian too*

        Thank you. I heard a few weeks ago from someone that “they were at capacity” I can get all riled up about this. I am at capacity.

    2. Seal*

      As a fellow academic librarian I feel your pain! I found myself in a similar situation with a professional association a few years ago. Briefly, I had been a dues-paying member for years and spent much of that time watching the organization slowly implode due to a dwindling number of dinosaurs that refused to acknowledge the profession was changing. I eventually became more active and then ran for chair largely to help move the organization in new direction. During my active years, we almost got things turned around, but a small number of old-timers continued to wreak havoc and drive away potential new members. So when my term as chair was up I threw up my hands and walked away. A number of smaller organizations have already formed to fill the various voids the organization in question left due to their ongoing dysfunction, so I suspect there will not be a large renegade organization forming. Even though I’ve washed my hands of the whole thing, I find the many missed opportunities disappointing.

      I’d add an option D to your list: walk away and let the board know why. It doesn’t have to be a dramatic statement (unless you want it to be!), but the board members need to know that their actions have consequences.

      1. Academic Librarian too*

        You hit the nail on the head “due to a dwindling number of dinosaurs that refused to acknowledge the profession was changing.” It was the dinosaurs that voted to keep the hostile member on the board.
        Yep- and officially I am in the dinosaur demographic. Bandwith is right. I think it is option D. I don’t want to reinvent the wheel, found a new organization, and it maybe it is time for the next gen to step up.

    3. PollyQ*

      I vote B, along with a letter explaining why you’re leaving. Organizations like this need to feel some loss before they’ll make any substantive changes.

    4. MsNotMrs*

      Are you in the Midwestern US? This sounds very much like something that was about to happen at a local library professional association near me…

  38. Lime Green Slime*

    Has anyone ever had a bad experience with writing a glassdoor review? I’m not planning on writing a rant, but I wanted to let prospective employees know that the company skirts overtime laws and that applications for promotions/raises sit in limbo for months and then disappear into the ether.

    I think the major safety-related events that took place during my tenure there are better left unsaid because it would clue readers in to my identity.

    Thoughts?

    1. Potatoes gonna potate*

      Yeah, I reviewed an old company a while back and it got rejected.
      I tried to flag my previous company for putting fake reviews (and I knew 100% without a doubt they were fake) and GD determined that was wrong. I think I asked about it here too, from what I gather, it seems like Glassdoor reviews carry as much weight as LinkedIn profile recommendations.

    2. irene adler*

      I’ve posted “realistic” interview experiences. No problems.
      “realistic” =
      -Interview time was double-booked. So no one had reviewed my resume. Each successive interviewer asked if the salary cited in the job description was acceptable. Then they pointed to various things on the resume and asked, “tell me about this”.
      -Email from company indicated that Hiring Manager was very interested in my resume. His question: “what year did you graduate from college?”. Yet no inquiry about my skills, experiences.
      -rejected -after 4 interviews- for the one skill on the job description that I did not possess. And I had pointed this out to the initial screener.
      -interview (Zoom) consisted of 14 people, about a third of whom did not show up (including HR). They neglected to send me an interview schedule or to tell me that the start time had been changed to a half hour later. I watched one person take 10-12 minutes to figure out how to get the schedule from her phone and to her computer. Another person did not want to ask me any questions as he feared he might repeat a question asked earlier. So I kept that interview going by asking all of my questions. I was asked if I had kids. Then asked about my family. Another interviewer told me he was worried I would get bored on the job. Lastly, they ghosted me after the interview.

  39. AnonQ*

    This includes some personal drama, but I really just want to focus on the work aspect, please.

    Background: My friend is still embroiled with her ex-jerkface-husband. (That’s the personal part, plenty to dissect there, but not here!) I just found out that she continued to do the books for his business after she divorced him two years ago. She was not an owner or part owner of the business, and was not paid as a bookkeeper or for anything else by the business, there was no division of the business as part of the divorce, etc.

    She filed the paperwork for him to get PPP loans for his business, but cannot file any of the follow-up paperwork needed to get the loan forgiven because he won’t provide her with receipts or whatever–she doesn’t have access to his office. I’m still trying to suss out whether there was shady goings-on, or if it’s just a matter of him possibly geting fined or having to repay the PPP loan.

    Yes, she needs to dump his ass for good and quit doing his books, but I can’t make her do that. I’m limiting my question to this: Since she’s the one who did the paperwork, is there any chance she could be held personally liable for any loan repayment/fines. Or worse, face charges if there were any shady goings-on on his part and there are fraud charges? I assume (hope?) he had to sign everything, and she did not sign anything. And I sincerely hope she wasn’t involved in anything shady, but I wouldn’t put it past *him*. Would that change anything, if she did sign, but was using info provided (or withheld) by the business owner?

    Would appreciate any insight or resources. She’s in a different state than I am, so my asking a local lawyer might not be applicable. (Yes, I’ve told her to get advice from a lawyer, but I get the feeling she’s not telling me the whole story, and she has a history of believing in this lying liar well past all reason, so she’s unlikely to without something more substantial than a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach.)

    1. valentine*

      I don’t think an employee, much less a non-employee, can be held personally liable for the loan.

      Her downfall will be if she chooses to protect him at all. Maybe she knows he did illegal things (other than not pay her!) and won’t speak against him, while he’s willing to speak at length about her illegal activity, or just to frame her. He could, for instance, forge her signature and she could claim it’s hers.

      I would leave her to it. You’re wanting to do far more for her than she is for herself, with crumbs of information. Does she want you to save or spare her?

    2. Generic Name*

      Yikes. Honestly, this is very much a Not Your Problem situation. Has your friend specifically asked you to fix the situation for her? I’m going to guess she hasn’t and is really just venting and looking to you for emotional support. You are not obligated to listen to her complain for all of eternity and it is reasonable to set boundaries for her. It’s totally okay to ask her to stop talking to you about it or to say, “What are you planning to do about it?” when she launches into a rant session you’d prefer not to hear.

    3. PollyQ*

      NAL, but if the loan was issued either to her husband or his business, then she’s not going to be responsible for paying it back or paying any fines. IF she falsified any documents, she could theoretically be in trouble for that, but I think it’s highly unlikely that anyone would bother to go after her. And presumably only his signature is on the documents anyway.

      Bigger picture: It’s nice of you to care about her, but I think you need to take a big step back. She’s clearly making bad decisions with her life, but she’s an adult, and it’s not your burden to worry about the consequences of those choices for her. I definitely get the impuse to fix everybody’s problems for them, but ultimately, it’s not your job, and it doesn’t even sound like she’s asking you to. And even if she is, you can continue saying, “I really don’t know, you should talk to a lawyer” and stick to basic emotional support.

  40. rageismycaffeine*

    Today I had to tell a direct report why it was bad for her to have sent a nasty email chewing out MY boss. I still can’t wrap my brain around it, but here we are.

    Who has fun stories of things they can’t believe they had to tell their direct reports not to do?

    1. TX Lizard*

      I had to tell a (high school aged) direct report not to curse around the children at our summer camp. Not even like, “Oh damn I stubbed my toe!”, but telling other CITs stories that involved the N word in blatant earshot of students.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Seconded. That person should have been fired on the spot. The N word isn’t “swearing,” it’s so much worse.

      3. allathian*

        “Oh damn I stubbed my toe” shouldn’t be a fireable offence but using the N word definitely should be… If you’re dealing with deluded parents who are under the illusion that good kids never swear, that’s another matter. I’ve never heard so much foul language as when walking past a junior high when the kids thought no adult could hear them (no recess monitors near enough). That said, I suspect that kids swearing is much less taboo in my culture than in the US.

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      I had to put someone on a PIP because despite repeated discussions on the topic they couldn’t understand why it was not appropriate to nap at their desk during business hours.

      1. North European*

        I have napped during business hours. I have gone for a walk / jogging during business hours. I have even recommended it officially to my colleagues. We are not measured by the working hours, but results. I assume ”Hotdog’s” associate was supposed to work certain hours. People in our team work very long hours to achieve the results they are expected to. I am a firm believer that naps and daytime walks actually increase productivity.

    3. Artemesia*

      The mind boggles. I once had a subordinate write to the new CEO pushing a program that he had already refused to fund. He was wrong and it was a stupid decision but one of the things we all learn is that in organizations when the answer is ‘no’ you need to accept that and move on and not refuse to see it. Not only did she send this long memo begging reconsideration but she CCed me in such a way that I am sure he assumed I approved of this. She had no portfolio to do this. And I am sure that my assurances to the CEO never dispelled the impression that I had no sense and didn’t listen to his refusal. Great way to come into notice the first time with a new leader — it was a huge organization and up to this point he had no idea whom I was.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Oh I was CC’d on my direct report’s email to my boss too. Same exact thing – she clearly expected me to be on her side on it. So crazy.

    4. BlueBelle*

      Oh goodness! I think people have lost their minds. LOL! I am here right now because I am so irritated by one of my direct reports I don’t think I can address them without losing it. So I have decided to just wait until Monday.

    5. irene adler*

      I had to tell my lab tech after she woke up from her nap:

      Not a good look to fall asleep in the lab.
      And, you snore.
      Loudly.

      1. JustaTech*

        I had a coworker who would occasionally nap under her desk rather than go home when she had a really bad period. She wanted to be able to get right back to work when she felt better; her work ethic was scary.

        1. Potatoes gonna potate*

          Unpopular opinion: I see nothing wrong with taking a 15-20 minute nap when you’re not feeling great but a nap will help. Why take a full day off of work and either lose PTO or not get any work done? It’s not like a period is contagious and will make anyone else sick. Also, if I left in mid-day, I’d be leaving my team short staffed, I’d have more work to come back to and if I’m feeling fine after 20 minutes, wh not? If people can chat with each other or take smoke breaks or walk around the block during short breaks, why is a nap break so egregious? / off soapbox

          1. Potatoes gonna potate*

            I should add — as long as it’s done privately, away from view of coworkers and customers.

            1. irene adler*

              What you describe is what I would term a “cat nap”. And, sure, during a break time-why not?

              My lab tech slept way longer than 20 minutes. And she had work tasks she needed to pay attention to.

              1. JustaTech*

                And there’s a major safety difference between napping under your desk vs napping in the lab.

                Gosh you’d have to be tired to sleep with your head on a hard lab bench!

                1. allathian*

                  Very tired, and if your lab tech drives their own car to get to and from work, they were not safe to drive home. If you’re so exhausted you fall asleep the minute you sit down, they probably would have fallen asleep at the wheel. So as odd as it may be, sleeping on the job may have been the safest option for them. Of course, the next step would be to ensure that they get enough rest before coming back to work…

          2. rageismycaffeine*

            I’ve definitely laid down on the floor of my office, door closed and lights out, for a few minutes when I’ve been really run down. I fully agree with you. More offices should have a couch in a quiet room for exactly this.

            1. allathian*

              My employer does. The only trouble is that it’s in a windowless room, and that triggers my mild claustrophobia, so I can’t get any rest there.

    6. WellRed*

      At our college bookstore, my student worker was sorting through books, out on the busy floor, while talking on her cell phone.

      More recently, at a show, the associate editor (lowest rank) made a 40 minute round trip to get coffee without telling anyone because she didn’t like the coffee at the convention center (neither did the rest of us). Did I mention we were on a super tight deadline? fortunately, that was her only lapse in common sense during her entire tenure with us.

      1. allathian*

        She must have been a coffee connoisseur and really in need of caffeine. I’m glad that was her only lapse.

    7. Environmental Compliance*

      You cannot just write down whatever numbers look ‘good enough’. You have to actually take the pH measurement and write down what it is. Writing down whatever you feel like is also called pencil whipping and is also called lying on a compliance form which is also called a fireable offense.

      1. JustaTech*

        Thing I had to tell a coworker who danged well knows better “Bob! you can’t just say “none seen”! This is going to get filed with the agency!”

        Bob did apologize and didn’t do it again, but I was still irked because even if this was one of our more loosey-goosey studies you still have to write down the numbers!

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          “EC, how do you know they’re even going to read it? They don’t read those things!”

          “That was literally my job before I came here. Yes, yes, they do read it. Remember y’all had 6 figures of fines before I got here? This is why.”

          *headdesk*

          This individual got fired for their shenanigans. It’s part of their training, it’s part of their onboarding, and yet I still would have to remind them at a minimum of weekly that no, you have to fill out those forms, and no, you cannot just ‘make it up’.

          1. allathian*

            How long did it take before you got them fired? I’m wondering how they got hired in the first place, with that work ethic. I hope your employer is able to say more than confirm employment dates if called for a reference. This person definitely shouldn’t be working in your field.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              A few months. This was a tech-level position, so not quite in my field, but very much subject to the requirements. I detail about this person in other open threads…. it was, to say the least, an absolute clusterf*ck.

    8. JustaTech*

      My spouse had to remind one of his reports that the camera on their video conference system follows you when you move around, so if he’s going to get up and walk around during a call he needs to wear pants.

    9. Absurda*

      This one didn’t involve me but I heard about it afterward:

      Very high and mighty a-hole Exec VP decided to reorg. He made changes that weren’t really popular mostly just because people didn’t like change. The customers didn’t like this change either, but they were really just annoying changes not ones that would majorly impact customers.

      Anyway, customers were complaining to Rep A about it, so Rep A told them big EVP made the decision and if they didn’t like it they should take it up with him. Some of the customers did just that. Things did not go well from there.

      1. allathian*

        Ouch. That said, it’s something I’d be very tempted to do myself. It’s one reason why I don’t want to be a manager, I don’t want to be put in a position of being forced to talk up a decision I profoundly disagree with to my reports. That said, it’s one thing if the employees don’t like a management decision, most peolple can try and find a new job if they really hate the change. Customers can usually find a different provider for the same service or product, although if it’s something very niche, possibly not so easy.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        I’m assuming this must be online teaching… right??? did they whip a shirt off in front of a class full of (in-person) people?

        1. Context-free theatre*

          In person! (Swim teaching, so it almost made sense, but with a pool full of kids, which NO. He was… an interesting employee.)

    11. Esmeralda*

      Don’t date students. Especially not freshmen. Especially not freshmen who are under 18 years old.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        oh NO. Please, I need to hear more about this. Tell me they were fired. They were fired, right?

    12. Beatrice*

      “Our policy limit for the number of unplanned absences you can have in a year is a limit, not a target, and I am not only allowed to have conversations with you about your attendance problems before you hit the limit, I am actually required to.”

      The points system I was required to enforce was infantilizing and stupid, but this man had been self-employed for most of his life and there were basic principles of being an employee of a mid-size business that were completely foreign to him. He genuinely thought that unplanned/unpaid absences were some kind of benefit that he should be maximizing rather than something he should be avoiding where possible.

  41. Potatoes gonna potate*

    A little lighthearted here…..small potatoes if you will (lol)

    Does this happen to anyone at work, esp when new? I spent ages trying to figure something out before asking my boss and when I finally asked her, I literally found the answer. 

    Luckily we had a good laugh about it and she said that talking it out usually helps her too.. still….d’OH! 

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I wish I could amend my original post. The above has happened at my last job too where I was working for years. I’d frequently approach my boss with an issue and when talking I’d figure out the answer myself. Literally all he’d do was nod and continue typing and chuckle as i walked away lol.

        1. OtterB*

          I haven’t done it talking, but I do it sometimes writing an email to ask a question of my boss or someone else in the organization. Somewhere in the process of writing while I’m listing the things I’ve tried or places I’ve looked, I’ll end up thinking of something I didn’t try or check, and that’s my answer. And then I delete the email. :-)

    2. TiffIf*

      Rubber ducking!

      This is a well known phenomenon in my industry–software development. I’ve had developers talk to me before describing a problem and then as they’re talking they realize the solution. Talking it out really does help, even if the other person says absolutely nothing!

      “Rubber Duck debugging” is basically explain the problem out loud to a rubber duck, or some other inanimate object, or to the sky instead of a person and you’ll come to the same conclusion.

      https://medium.com/@katiebrouwers/why-rubber-ducking-is-one-of-your-greatest-resources-as-a-developer-99ac0ee5b70a#:~:text=By%20definition%2C%20rubber%20ducking%20is,line%20to%20the%20rubber%20duck.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        My husband literally keeps a rubber duck on his desk to talk to, and handed them out to the rest of his team too :)

        Mine is Abraduck Lincoln. I don’t use mine so much for problem solving, per se, but when I start to get unfocused, I start talking to the duck like I’m training it to do whatever task I’m working on, and that helps me stay on task. (Though my dogs look at me kinda funny.)

      2. Watry*

        I’m not a coder, but this sort of thing happens to me constantly. I have considered actually bringing a rubber duck to work

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      I think of it as the opposite of walking into a room and forgetting why you’re there. You’re at your desk, you get up to ask the boss, and CLICK lightbulb goes on. It takes breaking out of your mini-rut (you-at-desk) to get the perspective on fixing it. Trick is to figure out how to do that without involving your boss. (My office doesn’t have strict butt-in-seat rules, so often, I’d walk around the floor once before knocking on their door.)

    4. KR*

      There Are so many times I draft a big long email to my boss asking for help with something, and in the process of writing the email realize how to fix my problem. It happens !

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      It hasn’t happened to me personally, but I know what you mean as I have worked with several people who had the “processing out loud” sort of insights.
      One in particular… a few times a week, I’d have phone calls from him (we weren’t part of the same reporting line, but were on a similar level, I was a bit more senior perhaps) saying something like “hi… I’ve spotted something weird in these numbers and I need to ask you about it… yeah, so I selected ‘All Europe’ and put Number of Sales and then added the filter for widget type = ‘Time Machine Components’ and………. oh don’t worry I’ve figured it out, what had happened was I’d selected Time Machine Products instead of Components! Dohhhhhh” … Once I got a call from him and I’m not kidding, it literally went like this: “Hi, this is Captain D….. hi… Oh don’t worry I figured it out, sorry!”

      I am naturally prone to that kind of “externally figuring out” by bouncing ideas off of other people myself, but have had to consciously train myself to use the internal monologue first.

      I see it as sort of a corollary to “rubber duck debugging” as we have in the tech world. The process of articulating the question/problem from start to finish in a slightly different format (where you have to make assumptions explicit etc for the benefit of the person listening) is what allows you to get that insight for yourself.

      For what it’s worth I don’t think it’s a d’oh moment on you, I think it’s useful information about your processing style!

  42. MechanicalPencil*

    I’m asking this on quasi-behalf of a friend. And also because I’m not sure if my indignation at their response is uncalled for or not.

    White female semi-friend got a rejection for a job as a diversity director. She helped create the position by defining the responsibilities and so forth. Interviewed for the position. And then received a rejection as the company hired a black woman for the position instead.

    The indignation she is expressing seems very out of place to me. She’s thinking that because she did all of the set up for the job that she had the job gift wrapped, and I’m of the opinion that the other, hired candidate may have just been better qualified/interviewed better, etc. Am I wrong here? I feel like making this about race is wrong.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think her assumption that she’d get the job after having worked up the definition is all wrong. If the organization *needs* a diversity director (because of perceived or actual discrimination), they are almost certainly going to hire from the outside for it. I don’t know why they even interviewed her – I think that was a big mistake.

    2. tangerineRose*

      You’re right. She’s wrong. If she knew that the woman who was hired was less qualified, that would be one thing, but it sounds like they might have just picked the most qualified person, which makes sense.

    3. Pamela Adams*

      To me, her refusal to understand why someone not-white could be a better choice means she was never qualified for the position.

      2. SparkleConsultant*

        Yes. Diversity work done well is difficult and does not earn you points. As a person of color when I raise D&I issues, I have to do some careful calculus on how much push back I’ll get. I know a lot of allies that understand this, who help support POC voices, and who get comfortable with being uncomfortable, but there also seem to be a few people who want to look good by talking about diversity without dealing with conflict. I think your friend may not have thought this through all the way to what the work entails.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This is bizarre, since a core tenet of diversity work is that you don’t gift wrap a job for anyone — you interview a range of candidates, give them all a fair shake, and wouldn’t give an insider a leg up. That she doesn’t know that could be part of why she didn’t get selected.

    5. LabTechNoMore*

      Also worth noting the knee-jerk tendency of racists to assume the only reason they didn’t get the job is because they’re white (or the corollary, assuming someone only got the job for being BIPoC). Now in this case, it’s obvious that having a culturally diverse background would be a major advantage in successfully working in this role, but being PoC is still far from the sole qualifying characteristic for diversity director. Moreover, there’s something to be said about the entitled attitude in imposing yourself in a leadership roles in BIPoC spaces.

      In short, yes, your friend’s indignation here is wrong.

  43. Endless Search*

    I would like to ask, does anyone have best tips to stay motivated while job searching during this time? I’ve reached the end of my rope with my current job and have been actively job searching for a while. Try as I might, I can’t seem to find any full time jobs in my area that don’t relate to finance. Which is what I’m trying to run a million miles away from! It’s been really disheartening to search day after day with no luck. I know I should be happy to have any sort of job right now, but mentally this job is wrecking me. It’s become clear I need to leave for my own well-being. Also, any websites you recommend using besides the big ones like Indeed, Monster or Ziprecruiter? I’m in the U.S and trying to break into HR if that helps. Thank you!

    1. nep*

      Fellow job-searcher lifting you up and wishing you well.
      It sure can be soul-sapping. Sometimes putting applications out can feel like a small ‘victory’–just getting it done and out there. I hear you, though; often there are no openings that speak to you.
      I would just suggest, in addition to the job search sites, looking at the websites of organisations / companies where you’d love to work. Often they’ll have openings listed that are not advertised widely–or they could have a section for ‘general interest,’ allowing people to submit resumes even if currently no relevant openings.
      All the best. Be kind to yourself.

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      Definitely check directly on the websites of companies you are interested in. Most of the time open positions will be posted there before they go on indeed or wherever. I’m not in exactly the same boat (not employed at all but would like to be!) but we’re sailing on the same sea. Good luck in your search!

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Nothing much to add that I am sure you aren’t already doing–it’s just one of those unpleasant things in life that can suck the life outta you. There really isn’t any magic formula except to be persistent and regular with applying to jobs. Like, aim for at least 2-3 good ones per week, but don’t be upset if you can’t find 1 every week. Think about searching more unconventional websites like FlexJobs, HigherEdJobs or ones from particular industries.

      Also, make sure you are using your personal network, LinkedIn network, etc., to try and uncover hidden jobs before they get posted by letting your network know you’re looking for something (if you can do so without alerting your current work). You can also try using recruiters, though they can be hit or miss.

      I don’t mean to make light of your situation, because it sucks to be stuck in a job you hate. But there are just so many with no job at all right now, and everybody feels the strain of that. So, if worse comes to worse, know it’s OK to accept ‘it is what it is’ and hang at current job and make the best of it (or lay low) while you do things that improve your skills or a work a project you can sink into for awhile that will look good on your resume later. Nothing lasts forever. Sometimes I find that when I quit stressing so much over the job search is when things happen. Seriously, I gave up looking entirely for a couple of months, recently saw ONE job I applied to, and got an interview within a week. It’s just weird that way sometimes.

    5. Endless Search*

      Thank you all for your thoughtful comments! I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. I’ll keep all of these tips in mind as I move forward. Sometimes it can be easy to get caught up in your own head, so it’s nice to get a reality check! I hope to make the best out of my job while I look for something better. Wishing the best everyone searching for jobs as well!

    6. Wordybird*

      Persistence, persistence, persistence. That & the tips from this blog.

      I’ve spent the last 18 months job-searching and just landed a new position I’m excited about. I was very focused on obtaining a remote job so I spent the majority of my time on remote sites: WeWorkRemotely, Remote.co, Remotive.io, Angelist (start-ups), Idealist (non-profits), Nodesk.co, Jobspresso.co, Pangian, & DynamiteJobs. I primarily focused on smaller organizations (as I had no remote working experience besides the last 6 months) and ones that were non-profits (as I do have experience there). I job-searched M-Th evenings after work and applied for jobs over the weekend so I had time to research the companies, write cover letters, and tweak my resume.

      It was really really hard. There were a couple times when I just had to take a break for 7-10 days. I had to frame it as not that I was a terrible person in general but a terrible fit for X position. I took any interview that I got, even for jobs I wasn’t 100% about, for practice (I get nervous when I interview). I made sure to not apply for every job I ran across; I decided I had to be excited about 80% of the work described in the ad + at least 80% qualified/experienced in the skills they listed. I vented to my best friends often.

      I knew the results I received would be directly related to the work I put into the process, and I just kept reminding myself of that. My new position pays more than I’ve ever made before, and it’s fully remote. It’s not perfect but it’s much better than any role I’ve had before, and I’m ready to take on the challenge.

  44. Elenia*

    I had a conversation with my boss yesterday that’s been bothering me. I called to get her feedback on an issue. The issue had an answer of Yes or No, no maybe. I knew she was already heavily leaning toward no, and I have had a similar discussion with her before where she was just NO.
    So I walked into the conversation expecting a NO. It wasn’t a hill I was prepared to die on, so I let her make the decision.
    At the end of the call, she wanted to give me some feedback. She said when I get into these conversations I should have the strength to argue for what I really wanted. (I wanted a yes).
    So this divided me. On the one hand, I KNEW your answer was going to be no, and I didn’t want to get into an argument I would inevitably lose.
    On the other hand, I know sometimes I am a little too accommodating to my boss and maybe don’t push back as much as I should. I know my peers at work argue and push back more than I do. Sometimes this works well, sometimes they lose their jobs.

    How do I know if I am accepting what my boss says because she’s my boss, or because I am just being too accommodating?

    1. valentine*

      She sounds like someone who doesn’t believe in what you’re proposing if she senses you don’t. She was saying she can be persuaded. Maybe she needs to see you confident you can get a yes in order to give one. Argue like an attorney and see what happens.

      I really hate the “Fight for it/Talk back to earn my respect” types.

    2. Pocket Mouse*

      Instead of thinking of it as pushing back and arguing, can you think of it as making a thoughtful, compelling case? Even if the decision isn’t what you’ve made a case for, you’re demonstrating that you understand the context and implications as befits your role—and, if you want increased responsibility at some point, that you’ll be ready to handle it.

      1. Elenia*

        Thank you both. I think what I will do next is gather data. I will ask the people directly involved – it’s volunteers, so there are hundreds – to see if they really want a YES. If I get a lot coming back with yes I can come back with some actual numbers to say there is a reason to change our stance.

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Adding two things: one, ideally you’d do this data gathering before asking your boss, rather than after she’s made the call. At this stage it may well come off as pushing back rather than making a case. Two, since this involves a number of other people, you want to be aware of the impact on the volunteers, both in terms of asking their opinion and communicating the ultimate decision. In asking, it should be clear that their input will be considered but may not be the deciding factor–and in this instance, if it’s already been decided for sure, it would be an insincere ask. In conveying the decision, you’ll similarly want to explain the reasoning behind it in a thoughtful, compelling way, especially if the decision is not their preference.

      2. Filosofickle*

        Agree with this framing.

        Without more detail I’m guessing a bit about the conversation and her motivations, but here’s what I’m wondering: Why make a question out of it without advocating for a different answer? You believed No was final. So asking again serves little purpose if you’re not going to lobby for a different answer. Your strongest choices were on either side. A) No argument — This is how you want me to proceed, correct? Or B) Make the case for Yes — I hear your concerns and here’s why doing it this way makes sense. It was framed as a choice with no one advocating for the 2nd option.

        While she may not have budged on this, her feedback is helpful for overall development. As Pocket Mouse noted, demonstrating understanding of the context and thinking strategically about what’s best for the business/customers is a valuable skill for you and your boss. There are definitely ways to defend a position without being adversarial. It’s all about being helpful / constructive (not “right”). It is important to know when to back off, you weren’t wrong about that.

  45. Tranon*

    Question about publicly listed names and employment.

    I’m in the process of a gender transition and will probably be undergoing a legal name change sometime within the next year or so. I am also a registered worker in an industry where all registered individuals required to be publicly listed with all professional names we’ve ever used, legal or casual.

    I already have multiple names listed on my registry as I underwent a full legal name change a few years ago. At that time, I did not foresee ever working in an industry with this requirement or being able to transition. So my public listing already looks a little messy in the name area, and taking on a name of a different gender would make it a lot worse. Because of the area of the industry I’m in, this would be unlikely to wind up in front of clients, but anyone thinking about hiring me or looking for my work record would 100% start with this registry.

    How much is it going to hurt me to have a listing that goes something like:

    John Q. Public — previously known as Anna Q. Public, Anna R. Doe, Jane R. Doe

    I’ve thought about contacting the regulatory organization that manages the registry and asking if they can allow trans workers to not have prior names displayed in order to protect our privacy, but given that the display of prior names has to do with tracking things like discipline and complaints about professional behavior, my guess is that they will not be very willing. Also, I’m unsure about the etiquette of reaching out directly versus going through my organization.

    Does anyone have any advice? Experience?

    1. Elliott*

      As for how much it could hurt you, I think that can be hard to predict since a lot of it can depend on things like the climate in your area/field as well as your own comfort level with people knowing that you’re trans. There is always a risk of encountering transphobia, unfortunately.

      I would probably look into whether there’s a process for people to request exemptions or accommodations. What would happen if someone had changed their name to avoid a stalker, for example?

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      It may be worth asking the agency if the old names could be suppressed. It’s possible that it’s just not been done before because nobody’s asked. I’ve got a handful of names listed on my license for my industry (legal name change for aesthetic reasons, maiden and married names) and it’s never been an issue.

      1. RagingADHD*

        If the intention is to track people’s work history for public accountability, wouldn’t suppressing prior names defeat the purpose of having the registry at all?

        I suppose at some point there might be a statute of limitations on old complaints, but the only industries I’m aware of where it would be important to track people over time, are where the potential issues/complaints are extremely serious matters.

        If OP is already concerned that it’s going to look shady or that they are hiding things….well, actually hiding things would just make it worse.

        1. Tranon*

          That’s exactly my concern. Obviously, if they were to suppress the previous name changes, any disciplinary actions that might have been on my record (there aren’t any, but naturally they have to consider if there were) would remain under my new name, but that doesn’t preserve the record for people who might just not want to work with me based on precious associations.

          I can see an argument against redacting any old names, but that doesn’t make the concept of being permanently outed for the entire length of my career + 10 years after my registration lapses easy to deal with.

          2. si1verdrake*

            No experience here beyond being trans myself, but it might be worth seeing if they can use initials rather than full names for previous listed names. That feels like it would be sufficient for, say, someone who may have worked with you in the past and didn’t click to move on to someone else, while not immediately outing you to every new potential employer. That might also be more feasible on the system, since in many cases it seems to be way easier to change an existing entry somewhere than to get rid of it entirely.

  46. Manager on Staycation*

    How much work should a manager do while on ‘staycation’? I manage 1 person. Had staycation this week. My direct report and my direct manager tried not to bother me, though I let them know that they could if they needed to.
    It was a busy week and at one point, we got some crazy, urgent requests. I (unrequested) jumped in to answer some of the more urgent, crazier requests that came through. I didn’t mind doing this. At one point though, I joined a meeting (again unasked, but related to the crazy urgent requests and I thought it would be beneficial if I joined) and the organizer of the meeting, a VP of another department, acted like I was doing the wrong thing. I pointed out (in a light tone) to the VP herself that she also worked through her entire staycation (true), and she agreed, but said this was a bad example.
    I of course did not send direct report anything to do while he was on staycation, and he didn’t log on, and I never expected him too. But I feel like as a manager, if I know things are crazy busy, I don’t really have much excuse to make Direct Report cover everything when I’m on staycation. Am I totally offbase?

    1. Taylor*

      The problem is that you’re sending mixed signals about your availability, and no one above or below you knows how to factor that in to resource allocation. You may feel like you’re helping out but the reality is that it’s confusing to see someone jumping in arbitrarily when they’ve announced that they’re on vacation/staycation,m. When people do that at my workplace I’m wary of what kind of timeline they’re going to be on or if they’re just checking in sporadically.

      When you’re approved for time off, it’s perfectly reasonable (and normal) to ask other people to cover your work. Go all in or all out (except for specific emergencies you are specifically asked to handle) and it will be better for everyone, including you.

    2. ThatGirl*

      If you’re off, you should be off. This is my firm belief. Even if you’re not going anywhere. No work anything. Your VP shouldn’t have worked through her time off either – that’s not time off!

    3. TiffIf*

      Agree with the others who say when you’re off, you should be off.

      I went on a vacation a few weeks ago (drove, used masks in public, tried to stay away from people as much as possible, self-quarantined 2 weeks upon return home) to Yellowstone and Glacier National Parks–I have absolutely no cell reception in the vast majority of the states of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming apparently–pretend you’re me while on your staycation–you can’t be reached.

    4. Xavier Desmond*

      Your time off is your time off. In my opinion, you shouldn’t be working during it at all except in the most exceptional circumstances.

      1. valentine*

        you shouldn’t be working during it at all except in the most exceptional circumstances.
        There was urgency, but not emergency and no one asked you to help. Why were you looking at work stuff? Let people know they can call you for emergencies and leave it there. No reading emails or looking at workflows. Guard your time off jealously.

    5. Reba*

      You told them they could call if they needed to, but then you didn’t give them any chance to exercise their own judgment about whether that need arose.

      Your manager might also be weighing the benefit of getting something done quickly versus the benefit of having a well rested employee with lower risk of burnout… and you could consider that, too.

      1. Reba*

        Sorry, meant to say you are thinking about that for your report and their time and responsibilities, and you could also apply that to yourself!

        Also…. when people are on vacation, some things don’t get done, or get done late. That is normal.

    6. WellRed*

      I hate it when my boss thinks something can’t be handled if she’s not overinvolving herself. You are also setting a bad example.

    7. PollyQ*

      Yes, I think you’re totally offbase. The amount of work you (or anyone) should be doing while on vacation is ZERO, unless there’s an extraordinarily rare & dire emergency. “Crazy busy” doesn’t count unless failing to address the issues right away would cause serious harm to the company. And the only “excuse” you need for not working is that you’re on vacation.

      Next time, tell people not to contact you unless it’s a genuine emergency, and do yourself the favor of not checking in at all. Better for you, by far, and also better to set the example for people around you.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      This sends a really bad message to your employees and other coworkers. I used to work for a woman who did this (worked through vacations, illness, family crises, etc.). As the person who reported to her, I got the message that no time off was truly time off. It was incredibly stressful. Often when your supervisor is out, it gives you a chance to focus on other projects, housekeeping, organizing files, etc. but I never felt able to do that. She would just randomly appear in phone calls and send emails and texts out the blue.

      So I would probably address this with your team and make clear to them what PTO means to you. Do you expect them to work like this when they’re on PTO? Probably not, but you should tell them that after what has happened. And moving forward, model the behavior you would want to see from them.

      This is barring a legitimate work emergency, of course, but it doesn’t sound like there was an emergency in your situation.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      VP is right imo, you are (indirectly) sending a bad example to your direct reports. I say indirectly since you say you didn’t send him anything to do whilst he was off, but still, he was on that meeting (I infer) and saw emails or whatever that you had “jumped in on”.
      Unless it is a true emergency I think you are doing your boss, your reports and your company a disservice here by: not trusting (or showing that you don’t trust) them to handle things while you are out, setting a bad example (as mentioned above) and short-changing your direct reports of the opportunity to handle possible “higher-level” things than they would normally do in your absence.
      With respect, it sounds like the VP is in a much higher role than you even if you are management yourself, so the requirement to be ‘on-call’ during time off isn’t really the same. (I hope you “pointed out” that to her privately, not on the call!)

  47. JustaTech*

    Suggestions for how to get over/re-frame my irritation?

    So this is two questions rolled into one, but I think they’re coming from the same place.
    My office is still officially in “only come in if you actually need to use the lab facilities” mode, but the top two people in my org have been rumbling about people “not being in” and next week want to have a pizza party. I have to be in the day of the pizza party for lab work, but I am really resentful/ stressed out that they would expect us to come in for a group activity.
    Is there a polite way to say “I appreciate the gesture, but this is still not safe. We’re not getting tested or even having our temperature taken, so why do you think it is a good idea for us to share pizza, even if we’re all wearing masks when we pick up the food?”

    Second: my one coworker (since the other got laid off last week) is a much more spontaneous person than I am (I like schedules and I get thrown off if things change at the last moment). This week alone Coworker has re-scheduled when we were supposed to go into the lab to do a deep clean twice until I said I was going in without them because I can’t keep changing my schedule. Coworker does this a lot with things that aren’t set in stone or scheduled with outside folks, and I know part of it is because of their chronic medical condition (bad allergies that contribute to poor sleep). But on a strictly personality basis it bugs the heck out of me to change my schedule at the last minute. Is there some way to phrase it to myself other than “don’t be mad at Coworker, they need their sleep”?

    Basically, in both cases I’m upset/irritated by something that is largely or completely out of my control, so can any suggest a different way I could try to frame it in my mind so I’m not so bothered?

    1. ThatGirl*

      The first one is completely understandable – I would say exactly what you said above, only instead of saying “Why do you think…” rephrase it to “sharing food is not recommended at all right now, so I don’t think pizza is a good idea.”

      The second – are you sure it is related to sleep? They should still do their best to keep appointments, even if their schedule is otherwise flexible.

      1. JustaTech*

        I mean, they say it is related to sleep and I’m going to believe them. I know they’ve got both bad allergies and an eye condition that make it both hard to sleep and hard to work (it’s hard to work when you can’t open your eyes). I also know my coworker has been getting allergy shots and is getting the eye condition treated as much as possible, so it’s not like they’re not trying.

        And generally this coworker isn’t changing appointments so much as sending an email “hey, can we work on that analysis tomorrow, I didn’t sleep and I don’t feel safe to drive in.” Like, I can’t say no to that, because there isn’t any reason why we can’t do the analysis tomorrow except I was mentally prepared to do it today.

          1. allathian*

            Oh, I don’t know. If it’s literally a question of safety, as in, you’re driving while exhausted, and the employer allows this amount of flexibility, I can understand if the OP doesn’t want to demand that the coworker comes in. That said, if this happens often, like more than once a month or so, I can very well understand the irritation.

    2. BlueBelle*

      For the first one, you can’t say it like that. I would say “I am not comfortable coming in for a group activity where we share food and where temperatures are not taken.” and leave it at that.
      For the second one, I would let them know when they cancel last minute or reschedule last minute it really messes up your schedule, and that if they need to cancel you need to know at least 24 hours in advance so you can adjust things.

      1. Artemesia*

        leave off the temperatures thing as it does not good at all. many people who are contagious don’t have temperatures — it is false security. Yes they should take temps at the building entrance but it will only screen out some not make it safe.

        Just ‘I am not comfortable with group activities or sharing food at this point in the pandemic.’

        1. JustaTech*

          Yeah, the temperature thing probably isn’t relevant. And if we wanted to (and wanted to pay the money) we could do the testing ourselves (it’s a lab).
          I guess that’s why I’m frustrated by the repeated “pizza party” things; we’re a lab that works on human diseases, if anyone should understand the whys and wherefores of the precautions it’s us.

      2. JustaTech*

        The problem with asking for 24 hours is that they know I don’t need it. Just because I don’t like having my schedule re-arranged doesn’t mean I can’t do it. Unless I have lab work I can pretty much do any given bit of work on any day. I feel like, if the average person would be able to just mentally move Thing A from Tuesday to Wednesday without fuss, I shouldn’t complain even if it’ll take me 20 minutes to re-set my brain.

        I also can’t ask for 24 hours because I know coworker can’t predict their symptoms well enough to know that far in advance if they won’t be able to come in. Because if they *did* know they would tell me. They’re very conscientious that way.

        Honestly the WFH has actually helped this a ton, because now that we’re not in the office it’s so much less obvious to me when Coworker has shifted their schedule or had an unplanned WFH day, so I’m not even getting the little mental hiccup of “Coworker isn’t coming in today”.

        (Just typing all this out has really helped, honestly. I think the thing that amplified my irritation this week was that the moving things involved me going in to the office, which is stressful now.)

        1. Wintergreen*

          As someone who also has really bad allergies and difficulty sleeping I totally relate to your co-worker. Sometimes the brain just doesn’t want to function.
          On the other hand, I am a stickler for scheduled appts and if I say I’m going to be there at “set time”, I am there 5 min early.
          Can she give a better idea of what time of day works best for her? For instance, with me, I do better in the mornings because my allergies flare when the wind picks up in the afternoon. So if she has trouble getting to 9AM meetings because she is having difficulty sleeping, could you make it a point to not schedule meetings with her before 11AM to give her a little more time in the mornings to pull herself together? Talking about it with her in an open way (making sure not to blame or scold), showing a willingness to understand and work with her, but letting her realize that it really does bother you, may get her to prioritize her appts with you just as she would an external customer. Obviously, she has to be willing and open to this for a conversation like this to work well.
          The only other thing I would suggest is always have a task or two in the back pocket that will last about what your meeting with coworker would have lasted. That way when she cancels last minute, you don’t have to re-structure your whole day. Just substitute your backup task into that time slot.

          1. allathian*

            Yeah, this.
            I hate to-do lists. Mainly because if I make one, I get very frustrated if I can’t actually follow through. To allow for flexibility, I need to make a vague plan, but not commit to it. In essence this means that on the day before and first thing every morning, I look at our overall work queue and decide what to do that day. That way, I find I’m much more open to last-minute changes. I know it’s counterintuitive, and it wouldn’t work with people who wouldn’t get anything done without a to-do list, but it seems to work for me to some extent at least. That said, I do need to schedule the occasional day for important but not urgent tasks. When I do this, after checking in with my boss, I warn my coworker and put myself on DND on Skype, and they know not to mess with my schedule unless there’s a dire emergency. This has happened once in the last few years, and then we were pretty much putting out fires…

    3. Neosmom*

      With the pizza party – ask them to order individual 12″ pies, one for each attendee. That way they will be individually boxed and only one person (the eater) will have their hands on their hot food.

      1. JustaTech*

        The one time I’ve eaten at the office since March was when we had to go in and do the “dog and pony show” for the new CEO (it’s easier to fake pleasant interest behind a mask, thank goodness) and for that they ordered box lunches that we could take away.

        I think part of the issue is also that the person asking for these things is the big boss and he has his own office where he can take off his mask and eat safely, where I have desk in the open office and so will have to hope it isn’t raining so I can eat as fast as possible on the patio next to the construction site.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      Regarding the first, you big boss in an idiot. Would seeing you sitting in the rain eating your slice of pizza because you don’t have your own office make him feel bad?

      Regarding the coworker – I do think it’s something you’re going to need to learn to live with, because it sounds like they’re being pretty reasonable. They have to reschedule joint work when a recurring health problem makes it unsafe for them to drive to work, or unable to work once they get there. They are trying to address the health problem, but it’s a long haul thing. And it’s annoying to you, but isn’t having a major effect on your productivity.

      One thing that might help is mentally having a Plan A and Plan B for each day. If coworker is there, you do Plan A, if they can’t be there, you do Plan B. So you’re shifting between two scheduled things, rather than having to stop and say “Oh, we can’t do the analysis today like we planned – what am I doing to do now.”

  48. Team recognition*

    How can I thank and celebrate my team for all the hard work they’ve been doing?

    I lead a team of 18 staff (in the UK, in case that matters). We’ve been working from home for over 5 months now and we’ve had to work harder than ever (we’re a charity and my team drives fundraising). We also had a number of vacancies at the start, so people had to go beyond their role at times, and new team members joined gradually. We’ve had some great successes and I’m truly proud of the team. But I’m also aware that workloads have remained high, and while we’ve done our best to bond with the newbies and stay connected, it’s just not the same. I sense motivation slipping and spirits generally are bit low at the moment.

    I want to show them all a little appreciation and remind them how amazing they are. Normally we’d get together in the pub and I’d buy a round of drinks, take longer lunches, bring treats to the office or do some kind of activity that everyone enjoys (like bowling) but none of this is an option at the moment.

    A couple of ideas I’ve had are to send small care packages (altough coats can spiral quickly for 18 people and I’d be using my own funds) and find ways to acknowledge the team publicly at organisation-wide meetings… but I’d be interested to hear what others have done, or whether you’ve been on the receiving end of small gestures from your manager that you’ve appreciated?

    Note that I can’t control things like pay increases or extra annual leave, although there are some internal recognition opportunities I’m looking into.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Starbucks gift cards might work. Or sending chocolate (send them boxes of Heroes!). But… can you give them an afternoon off without making them take leave for it? If workload permits, a surprise “pack up and theoretically go home” might be nice. You could rotate if coverage is an issue.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, I thought of a bonus half day, too. Or what about a small gift card, saying what you’ve said here: I can’t buy you a round at the pub right now, please treat yourself!

        And of course, acknowledgement of their work is good too :)

        1. recognition*

          Good idea to send a gift card with this message, thank you! I’ll see how I can give them some surprise time off too.

      2. Team recognition*

        Thank you, gifts cards or Heroes could work. I like the idea of a surprise half day but some team members might not take it because they’ll be worried about coming back to more work… But I’ll have a think about how I could make it work.

    2. Jules the First*

      My neighbour’s office did a virtual round of drinks – used a letterbox cocktail company to post the team a simple cocktail kit and then set up a Zoom call to drink together. (We are also in the UK!)

      1. Team recognition*

        I had no idea letterbox cocktails are a thing! That could be fun, I’ll look into it thank you.

        1. allathian*

          Just be sure there are non-alcoholic alternatives available so that if you have any team members who don’t drink for any reason they won’t feel left out. Even if they usually drink at the pub, WFH may have changed things for some people. Someone could have got pregnant during WFH and hasn’t told you yet, someone else might be on medication that means they’re at least temporarily not drinking, etc.

          1. Team recognition*

            Yes absolutely, I know for a fact that two people at least don’t drink alcohol. Good reminder to not just assume that everyone else does though.

    3. JustaTech*

      On the work front, could you write each of them some kind of “letter of commendation” to go in their permanent record/employee file so it’s there for consideration the next time raises/promotions are considered?

      I have a folder on my computer of every “hey, thanks for the hard work!” email I’ve gotten. In theory they’re for the review cycles, but sometimes if I’m having a down day I just read them to remember that people have said I’ve done a good job.

    4. pony tailed wonder*

      Can you write a letter that details how great they are during this crisis to be placed in their permanent work file?

    5. fhgwhgads*

      There are only two kinds of recognition for work I actually genuinely appreciate or feel genuinely appreciated by:
      1) Money (be it raise or bonus)
      2) Words. Actual, sincere, accurate words appreciating me (as long as they are not contradicted by actions that prove lack of actual appreciation).

      Everything else would strike me more as about the recognizer wanting to make a show of recognizing us, rather than actually doing it in a meaningful way.

      1. Team recognition*

        That’s a good point actually. I don’t want anyone to feel that they have to make a big song and dance of how thoughtful I’ve been, but I could see how that could happen! I also think I’m trying to do too much at once: say thank you, create an opportunity for people to bond, do something fun… Keeping it simple and sincere is a good guide.

  49. (No Longer) Some Sort of Management consultant*

    30 yo going back to college for career change

    After five years as a management consultant I was laid off in the spring due to a combination of burnout and Corona.

    So I did what I’ve been wanting to do for 2-3 years: going back to college to study national security and crisis management.

    And I’m terrified.

    Despite having both a BSc and MSc degree from a very good university in my country, I was a dreadful ball of anxiety and procrastination due to undiagnosed ADHD and just not knowing how to work hard.

    I’m ten years older and hopefully wiser. I’m on adhd medication. I’m really interested in what I’m going to study. Logically, I will be OK.

    Classes start on Monday. Only remote learning which isn’t great for someone with my issues.

    I’m scared everyone is going to be 19 and I’ll be lonely, and that I’m going to fail.

    If anyone has any uplifting stories of returning to college as an older student and doing better this time around, I would love to hear them.

    1. M*

      I’m going back to school too! I graduated college 6 years ago, and I’m 28 right now. Going back for my MAED, which is something I’ve wanted to do for a while, but was working in an adjacent field (theatre education/performance) for a while, which made it not-doable. I have a lot of the same worries! My advice, from someone in a similar boat, is to not compare your journey to others’. You are you, and of course being connected with others in your classes would be great, and you should be able to look forward to that, but especially in the beginning of the semester, I’d recommend making the focus be your academics. Once you have your footing, start reaching out to your classmates and making those connections. It’s definitely scary, but you can do it! I’m anxious too, but that’s sort of what I’ve set myself up for: nerves are normal for starting a new stage in life, but they don’t need to derail you!

      Sending good vibes! You’ll do great

    2. Lyudie*

      I started grad school (100% online program) in my late 30s. I’m now about half done with my master’s. Honestly being in the work world for a while is a bonus: you have more experience with time management, prioritization, etc. You’re on meds that (hopefully) are helping with your focus and concentration. Also, it could be a quirk of my program (it’s a field many seem to come into from something else) but I have only had a few classmates who were straight out of their BA. Most are in their 30s and 40s, some older. So I wouldn’t count on you being the oldest in the class :)

      You got this!!

      1. JustaTech*

        Seconding online grad school in my 30’s. It was great, a program designed for people who were already working in the field, so everyone who was there was they because they wanted to, and had gotten a lot of the “being adult” basics figured out already.

    3. Artemesia*

      I taught in Universities for many years and can say without hesitation that some of my best students were older non-traditional students (often housewives) who were returning to complete degrees. They usually felt nervous about being out of the loop and inexperienced studying and they were virtually all excellent. I don’t remember any who were failures. Young college students were often undisciplined and discovering unsupervised drinking for the first time; older students were juggling family, often work, and had experience being responsible for themselves and others. They were able to organize themselves and their family life to get it done.

      I realize on line instruction is different — but as an actual grownup you probably have a lot of experience managing yourself that younger students haven’t yet mastered.

      2. (No Longer) Some Sort of Management consultant*

        Thank you for the reassurance!
        I certainly *hope* I will find the work easier now. Like, when I’m being rational about it, I remember that I’ve done waaay harder and dfrankly more important, “real” work.
        101-level classes are nothing compared to that.

        At least I hope so!

    4. irene adler*

      No, you won’t be lonely. There will be all kinds of students-ages, backgrounds, walks of life. In my experience, very few are 19 (or early 20’s).

      You’ll be the one the “youngins” will look to for answering in-class questions, and knowing the material better than they do.
      I’m in school. And am over 50.
      Class started last week (on-line with real time meetings). Classmates so shy. We had to discuss an article the instructor sent to us. One hadn’t read it, another wasn’t sure about it. So yeah, I got to respond to most of the questions the instructor posed. Cuz I did my homework well. You may well find you are carrying the class- or setting the bar for others.

      1. (No Longer) Some Sort of Management consultant*

        Thank you so much!
        I kinda do hope I can help other students a bit; I *love* teaching and coaching.

        What are you studying?

    5. Jean (just Jean)*

      Your school may have an office of Disability Services if you feel the need for any additional support. But on rereading your post, you sound like you’re going to be just fine. Half the battle is knowing when to reach out for help proactively rather than reactively. Good wishes!

    6. deesse877*

      Yo! I am a professor and we freaking love you! Seriously, “non-traditional” students are never not a plus. Knowledgeable, mature, understand cheesy jokes about Britney Spears. Get to know your teachers–only some will really have time, and only some will really get how fish-out-of-water you feel, but you know how to make a professional connection already, so you should take advantage of that.

      Also, strong recommendation that you register with Disability office at your school. You may never need an accomodation, but if you do it’s worlds better to have it in your back pocket than to start from zero when you’re already stressed.

      Seriously, be cool. This will work.

      1. (No Longer) Some Sort of Management consultant*

        Thank you so much, this made me feel 1000% better! I hadn’t thought of that angle of it all, but yeah, I can see why professors want a little more diversity than just 19 year olds, haha!

        I have gotten my disability registered, and will be speaking to the professor of the first class on Monday. (We only take one class at a time in my country!)

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Haha, in grad school I had a class where there were only four of us – me, and three students who were about 22. The instructor, who was my age, and I had to pause a class video at one point to explain to the three of them what a boom box was. :P

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I flunked out of three different colleges with a highest GPA of like, 0.4. Once I figured out what I was interested in, I ended up with two BS and two Masters degrees. Now I’m still in school taking classes for funsies because after ten years of being a full-time student, I’m not very good at NOT being one. The current term just started on Monday, and I am literally twice the age of everyone else in my class (or at least all the ones who gave their ages – I didn’t, but about 2/3 of the class did).

      Tip, if you want it:
      Make a detailed (calendar or list) of all your due dates and class obligations. (I’ve done it both ways – list out all assignments and due dates in chronological order on an excel spreadsheet, or write them on a standard calendar, whichever works best for you.)
      Anything big (like, a big paper rather than a weekly quiz, or a midterm exam), also make yourself calendar entries to check status along the way – outline at due-date-minus-three-weeks, rough draft at due-date-minus-1.5-weeks, review study materials every Tuesday and Friday for the last two weeks before the midterm, whatever – the key thing is, you don’t want to end up at due-date-minus-two-days going “OH CARP I HAVE TO WRITE 30 PAGES BY THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW AND I DON’T EVEN HAVE A TOPIC” or whatnot. These are probably due dates to you, not to your instructor.

      Do you have someone who can be an accountability partner, if you think that would help? I have had a couple of classes where the only way I was getting everything done was by virtue of the fact that I didn’t want to have to tell my best friend that I’d dropped the ball. I had a reminder set on my phone that every Thursday at 2pm (or whatever), I had to text her and let her know how I was doing in thus-and-such class, so because I wanted that to be good news, I had to keep up with the class, even if I wasn’t really feeling it.

      1. (No Longer) Some Sort of Management consultant*

        Thank you so much for the advice!
        I’ve been trying to plot out my reading on a huge piece of paper with the help of post-it’s and it seems promising so far!

        An accountability buddy sounds like precisely what I need. I need to think about that for a bit!

        If you have any other advice, I’d love it if you share it! And thank you for taking the time to reply to my comment.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Haha, there you go — you can make a silly ritual to tear up each post-it as you complete the task, or put them on a TROPHY WALL, or something, if you like to game-ify your accomplishments :)

          Like I said, I’ve been a full-time student and full-time employee for pretty much the last eleven years or so now, give or take, so I live and die by my calendar. (I say “my calendar” but it’s actually like, a full dozen of them all told in iCal, plus a Very Full reminders list. Anything that actually requires an allotment of time goes on as a calendar entry, and I have personal and school and work and husband and me-and-husband and whole-household and vacation (*wistful sigh*) and some others, all color-coded. Anything that isn’t necessarily a time allotment, but more of a “do this thing at this time” (like “give the dogs their monthly medicine” or “pay the lawn mowing high schooler” or such) go on my reminders list. I use Fantastical to combine all calendars and reminders together into one master list on my computer, because I sit at a computer all day, but they’re all on my phone and tablet too. EVERYTHING gets a remind-me setting on it, so if something has to happen, then my phone and computer and tablet and watch all buzz me about it. Even stuff that doesn’t have an OFFICIAL due date, I still make one up – nothing goes on the list without a buzz date. If I need to bump it back when that time comes, I can, but if it doesn’t buzz me, I won’t remember it.

          Anyway, the two big big big things I did when I was still in a degree pursuing program (as opposed to now when I’m just taking whatever sounds like fun and only half-time) were:
          1) Schedule on the calendar at least one block a week that is School Things As Priority. Nothing else gets to overwrite that, unless Vin Diesel shows up on my doorstep and wants to play D&D. If I don’t have school things, I’ve just got some bonus time back to do whatever, but whatever else might be going on, that evening is my carved-out homework time. I’ll probably have to work in some other time during the week too, but – especially if I have other commitments, like a volunteer gig or a sig other or children to consider, everybody knows that Tuesday from 6-10pm (or whatever) is sacrosanct. (And if there are other household folks to consider, emphasize that this is a thing with which you will need their full support and while the initial scheduling can be flexible, the regular occurring time block is non-negotiable.)

          2) Similarly – block out a good block of NOT School Things. Maybe you do zoom trivia on Wednesdays. Maybe you, I dunno, watch three hours of trashy murder TV or whatever on Fridays. Maybe Saturday mornings are for making yourself a cup of coffee and a delicious pastry and taking your (NON SCHOOL) book out in the back garden for a nice read, or Sunday afternoons for a hike with friends/kids/the dog. Whatever. Just, block yourself out some time every week that is Adamantly Not For School, and keep THAT just as sacrosanct as your School Things time.

    8. Another JD*

      I met one of my best friends in college when I was 19 and she was 36. She was returning to school to finish her degree. 17 years later she’s still one of my favorite people on the planet.

    9. Got Cats?*

      I started back at school to get a BFA. I’m 51 and I have never been the oldest person in my classes. And yes, as noted above, the teachers love us. We do the work and we take it seriously. Try and have fun!

    10. Tengu*

      You’ll do great! I’m an academic librarian in the national security & emergency preparedness fields. Those areas draw a lot of nontraditional students, so it’s very unlikely you’ll be the only one.

      Your professors and the school want you to succeed too, so don’t hesitate to ask questions and take advantage of whatever resources are offered.

      Also, the librarians there would probably love to help you out. :)

      1. (No Longer) Some Sort of Management consultant*

        I figured that it would be that kind of field. The university I’m going to is a very small, highly specialized place with both civil and military students.

        I will definitely remember to make friends with the librarians! They’re always some of the best people to know!

    11. Laura H.*

      As a typically aged undergrad, I loved when non-traditional students and I had classes, they usually had some interesting insights and they were enlightening.

      Regardless of status, something that I always advise is hand write your notes in lecture. I know that it helped me better find my notes I made, and I’ve heard somewhere that hand writing notes engages the brain in ways word processing software just can’t.

      Good luck, and wishing you the best start to your semester.

    12. Dr. Anonymous*

      Late to the party but I started med school at 41 or 42. It turned out all my closest friends in med school were 19-23 years old. They were the serious people who sat near the front (but not the “gunners” who sat in the VERY FRONT and argued with everyone all the time. Life’s too short to argue with the faculty about how the answer to #24 should have been “D”.) You’re a grown-up, you know how your brain works, and you’re spending your own money and you know what you want out of school. There will be challenges, but you’re more than ready for them. You can do this and it won’t feel like high school where you’re the only uncool one.

    13. I see wonderful things*

      I went to ”trade school” age 24 when all others were 16… well, actually in my class there were a few people older than me, in their 30’s and 40’s switching careers. Then I dod a career switch and went to a polytechnic to get my bachelor’s degree when I was 28-31…

      1. I see wonderful things*

        Forgot that any student outing that required a ”responsible adult”… well, let’s say I got ”press gang invited” to a lot of parties…

    14. Belgian*

      I went back to school after working for a couple of years and I find it easier now. I’m more motivated to study because I made the active choice to go back to school. It wasn’t just the logical next step like it was when I first went to university.

    15. PennyLane*

      I don’t have experience as a student, but I want to recommend that if your university hosts career fairs, go to them! If you aren’t sure, check with your career center & your academic department. As an employer who recruits at these events, I love it when older students approach! They typically have work experience which is a bonus because their expectations are more realistic and and in making the decision to go back to school have usually assessed what they truly want to do…typically more so than traditional students because they don’t have experience to draw on…and have more self awareness about their own abilities and interests.

  50. honeydew*

    How do I handle my recent ADHD diagnosis and medication while job searching?

    I currently work in a really dysfunctional place, but I know that someone who is neurotypical would be able to handle it better, and things that are hard for me (like my bosses not being willing to set priorities or deadlines, telling me I need a certain number of hours and to just do busy work because “it looks better to our old-school big boss” even though I’m salaried, etc.) might be minor annoyances to other people.

    Unfortunately my manager and his colleagues are lukewarm at best about me. While I am better on medication I also have a history of making small mistakes (like not fixing the header and footer on a document or waiting to the last second to do something) that have improved with medication but only just now. If I were to ask for a reference I would probably get, “she’s an average/okay worker with a good attitude.”

    So what do I do? I would like to leave because of the dysfunction but I’m afraid to job search because I haven’t shown anyone my full potential, and my references wouldn’t come back great. I also don’t know, per Alison’s advice, that disclosing a disability in an interview is a good idea.

    1. Natalie*

      I would like to leave because of the dysfunction but I’m afraid to job search because I haven’t shown anyone my full potential, and my references wouldn’t come back great.

      The only way to leave is to job search. Yes, a lukewarm reference might cause you to miss out on some jobs. Not even looking in the first place means you miss out on 100% of jobs.

      Why would disclose your disability in the interview?

      1. honeydew*

        My thought is that I won’t get a good recommendation from my current manager despite the fact that I’m doing much better, so I would want to address the reason for my performance issues, or head off any negative feedback at the outset.

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      I would just go ahead with the job search and give each interview your best shot. Don’t disclose your diagnosis, it’s not really relevant. Over time, you may not consider it a disability, it’s just a thing about you that may be different than your co workers. For context, I have hearing loss and rely on reading lips. I don’t consider it a disadvantage, I can “hear” what people are saying from across a noisy room (except now, when everyone is wearing masks). Until recently, there were people I saw regularly who didn’t know.

      1. honeydew*

        In my case it’s really relevant because it’s the reason for the performance issues I’ve had in the past, and now that I’m on medication I haven’t been having those issues.

        1. BRR*

          Speaking as someone who’s been fired twice for work quality issues due to untreated ADHD, I still wouldn’t bring it up*. The references are tough, I have trouble with them myself. Can you find a coworker who could judge your work or a non manager who could speak to your work positively? I think if two out of three, or possible even only one out of three, is positive while the others are kind of meh that it could work. But reference are only part of the interview process and honestly I feel like they can be more like pass/fail. The interview and any sample work are the important parts that get you an offer.

          This also might give you some anxiety but I feel like I should say it, if others haven’t had a good sampling of your work, it’s possible you might not be able to fully redeem yourself. I am only saying that because while you should do your absolute best at work, don’t ignore your search for your current job. Also your current manage is usually not a reference anyways.

          *If for some reason you HAVE to bring it up, I would say “I was having some issues regarding a medical issues that has since been resolved.” I would under no circumstances say it’s ADHD especially if you’re tying it to performance issues.

    3. ...*

      Thats not Alisons advice, I dont think. I think her advice is to disclose when you are in the offer stage, not upon interview.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        No reason to disclose at all unless you’re asking for specific accommodations (and then, yes, after the offer is received); otherwise, you shouldn’t.

  51. JustaTech*

    Followup from last week: Laid-off coworker got their deli platter and was very happy about it!
    LOC also said that the lay-off was probably for the best and they’ve been looking to move on for a long time (several years) now and this was the push they needed.
    And another coworker who was let go has gotten an inside-track interview at another company that’s much closer to their home.

  52. C_G2*

    Do I need to hide a friendship with my former boss? She left a few back. We are close — I consider her a mentor as well — and maintained contact. I have vacation plans that involve visiting them in the January/February range — it’s a smallish town and my coworkers know our boss moved there. So if I mentioned my vacation they’d likely make the connection. I guess what kind of scripts would be appropriate if they asked (if I was visiting former boss/etc)? We’re all in our early to late 20s, whereas my friend is in her mid 30s if that’s relevant.

    1. BlueBelle*

      I don’t think you need to hide it unless there is something about your work culture that makes you think you need to. She doesn’t work there anymore, so it isn’t a conflict. You can say “we stayed in touch after she left and we have become friends.”

    2. Purt's Peas*

      “Yeah, I am visiting her at some point during the trip, I’m excited to see her!” I think there’s no need to conceal this at all.

    3. PollyQ*

      No need to hide it. It’s very common that former co-workers stay friends, and now that there’s no reporting relationship, there’s nothing at all inappropriate about it. Hiding would seem weirder than mentioning it to me.

    4. allathian*

      No need to hide it. She’s no longer your boss. The only time this friendship might be a problem is if you decide to move on from your current job and need your former boss as your reference. Can you afford not to use your former boss and current friend as a reference in the future?

  53. Lumberg’s pet Bob*

    Well, this is I suppose ”good news” , and something totally different. I think we all know the movie ”Office Space” and remember how it ends. I’ve done the same, after 20 years of IT my career is now in construction as a day labourer a.k.a ”Hard hat & broom”… larking up on scaffolding at age 50 isn’t for me, but this is something I can do, though I’m more of a decorator than a tacker.

    Going from day rates to getting the same a week is a bit of a drop in income, but now that I landed a plum job hopefully staying with this gang at this site for a good year I think I’ll save up the same in not having to pay gym membership. (Which I couldn’t afford anyways being unemployed, my jeans size went from 44 to 36 just from not eating out or boozing… I’m having to eBay all my clothes as they just flap on me. )

    As for job security, it is agency work so you never know the next day. But I already switched agencies and got a 1/3 pay raise so I can play this game…. we’re building a hospital so we’re considered ”key workers” (UK) so the site won’t close even we get a 2nd lockdown with Covid. They’re all serious with distancing, hygiene and thermal cameras on entry and one-way stairs etc. And very tightly run ship compared to a lot of other sites. Not all of the younger guys appreciate it all, but I used to be a sailor when I was young so I am at home with all the ”silly rules”…

    So, here I am complaining my steelcaps chafe which is way more better than complaining I’m unemployed. Happy complaints indeed.

  54. Twentyfourthirteen*

    I’ve been an AAM reader for years and loved most of the advice but had to adapt much of it because I work(ed) in a niche industry. It’s one of those where people both think it is very cool (it is) and yet seem bewildered that anyone would want to pursue it as a career. I’m posting this mostly because I just need success stories and encouragement to be honest. My friends’ reactions have been lukewarm about this and it’s made me not want to talk about it with them at all, especially ones that I worked with in this industry. Just kinda feeling some self-esteem and impostor syndrome kinds of things.

    I worked in this specific area for about 10 years. Halfway through that time period, 10 years ago, something soured between me and some superiors and I left a company that I really loved working for. I was neither fired nor quit; basically, a term ended and I wasn’t invited back. After that I bounced around to different organizations in the field. I really loved things about them individually and while I really missed my old job, was glad I took the experiences elsewhere. During this time I also got a degree in the field.

    For the past five years I have been a bit more… well to be blunt job-hoppy. It wasn’t planned or controlled. Those who have been caught in the loop of working for shoddy employers with few other choices can understand. I’ve mostly been adjacent to my niche industry in overlapping roles but focused on some personal things and I couldn’t take on the responsibility of my old career trajectory. A few times I left the industry completely to take admin jobs that would support creative endeavors. I’ll be honest I sort of gave up on that niche industry dream for awhile when I was recruited for exactly the role I wanted next and didn’t get the job.

    A few weeks ago it occurred to me that because of the pandemic it might be time to consider re-entering that niche for real. It’s not 100% sure, there are a lot of things to consider, but basically most of the barriers for me before are no longer in my way. The only thing right now is the considerable cash it would take to retain memberships, get caught up on training (maybe a challenge with the pandemic), and quite frankly get my hands on owning a car again.

    I even went looking for jobs near me, in the same company I mentioned before that I was more or less blacklisted from, and found a couple roles I’m seriously interested in. It would be a transitional thing with the intent of hopefully moving to a specific type of role later. Roles like the one I’m looking for rarely open up and I’m not interested in relocating beyond a few places so it’s a waiting game and better to get my foot in the door.

    I reached out to an old boss from this company. It’s been almost exactly 10 years since we last spoke. He was not one of the superiors that I had issues with, he was the director they reported to, but I will say I’m confident that the bridges are burned with the others I mentioned… and honestly the director has a distinct reputation in the industry as a whole. He doesn’t work at the same location I’m interested in and of course I don’t need his permission to apply but his reference and recommendation could significantly impact my chances of getting back in to this company.

    I’m just worried in general. I was a dumbass early 20-something when things went south at this company and while I know that I’m the one who has probably catastrophized it in my mind, it’s clear that what happened really changed my whole career path and I didn’t know it at the time. I made a ton of stupid mistakes with the way I handled things that I have learned from and would never repeat. But because of the way the industry works, I fear that mistakes I made as a young adult (mixed with a healthy dose of sexism; things are improving, but this specific area is notoriously a boys club) permanently mar any chances of returning now as an actual adult.

    Thank you for reading this. I just needed to anonymously get it off my chest in an environment people could understand. I know this is a fairly common problem especially nowadays, I am just facing unique challenges and trying to muster up and remind myself that I know I have the talent and work ethic for this and maybe its time to flex them for real.

    1. Just My Opinion*

      If you think they will be reasonable about it, you could reach out to them and eat some crow. I know we’ve worked with some pretty obnoxious youngsters and if they reached out and owned up to their mistakes and could show they had matured we’d consider rehiring them.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Think of what you have here as practice for what you will say if you get an interview. But you need to shorten it waaay down and you need to tidy it up/streamline it.

      So just some random thoughts:
      Friends not helping that much. Do you allow yourself to find consolation in their words? People who are not consolable are usually the people friends give up on. I understand you are nervous. So you may have to fake some of it, “Thank you for saying that, you are helping me to feel better.” Realize the fact that you don’t actually feel better is a conversation between you and you, not a conversation between you and them. Sometimes we have to deliberately decide to let people’s words console us.

      There is an odd thing about friends also. We don’t get to pick those who help us the most. They are self-selecting. If you are like most people you have some friends that are closer than others. I suggest you talk to friends that are not-so close.

      My final random thought is about false attributions. Maybe they have zero concern about what happened 10 years ago, but they could have lots of concerns about job-hopping. Don’t get so focused on one thing that you fail to be prepared on a very different point. Their current concern might be actually about your ability/willingness to stay put for a while. And what will you tell them when they ask. I think you can pull together an answer based on what you have here. Just put the time in to crafting that short and logical response.

      The next random thing is about projection. You say, ” But because of the way the industry works, I fear that mistakes I made as a young adult (mixed with a healthy dose of sexism; things are improving, but this specific area is notoriously a boys club) permanently mar any chances of returning now as an actual adult.”
      You might be able to picture them accepting you back IF YOU can work with the idea that THEY may have changed also. Sometimes our view of what others think becomes a mirror of what we think of THEM.
      You want a second chance, give them a second chance. Ten years is a bit of time, they actually could have mellowed out some. Picture them doing better and see if that helps you to realize that they could do the same for you.

  55. asleep at the disco*

    I see variously AAM and others talking about contacting references other than the ones you list. I’m curious as to how they find those people to ask. LinkedIn? Do they ask your reference to list other people? How do they know?

      1. asleep at the disco*

        So they call Workplace A and ask about me? I… don’t think anyone is going to answer them, everywhere I’ve worked employs thousands of people. I think the most my last place would do is confirm dates of employment and that I wasn’t fired. No one’s going to let them go down the chain to find out who my old boss was.

        1. Artemesia*

          If they call Fred whom they know well, who works in your area at Workplace A then Fred will probably be glad to identify people they should talk to at the organization. ‘Fred told me you worked with Asleep at the Disco; we are considering him for a position in Orb Transmogrification — we need someone who works well with cross disciplinary teams and wondered if you could discuss his work at A with us.’ Chances are good they will do so. I have never had anyone refuse when using this approach albeit have done it only a couple of dozen times over decades.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think AAM has answered this before. The two answers you have, plus basic networking. “This candidate worked at XYZ teapots in 2015; Bob – you were there in 2016, can you ask around and see who they worked for and what their opinons were?”

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I would say so.

          I work in a small field where it’s rare to interview somewhere you know nobody at all. There will be someone in the building you’ve worked with before, or certainly friends in common.

          So for example when I moved from BigFirm1 to BigFirm2: after I accepted their offer I asked if they wanted my references and they said no, they’d already spoken to Jeff and Alice who had both worked with me before and were now at BF2. I wouldn’t have named either of those as references, because I never reported to either of them directly, but evidently they spoke well enough of me that the hiring manager didn’t feel the need to contact anyone else.

          I’ve helped other people get jobs in the same grapevine way. The references you can get by this method are 360, not just from supervisors/managers. It’s useful to know how rockstars are viewed by their support.

    3. Artemesia*

      People know others in a field and if they have reason to think they know you they will call and ask. I knew someone we were considering had once worked in a similar organization to ours and I knew someone there and called and he gave me names of people who had worked with that person whom I then called and what they told me caused me to drop him from consideration. It was quite specific information related to something that was important to us.

    4. Oxford Comma*

      I’ve done it a few times. It’s not a formal part of the references. Like I know someone at the applicant’s place of employment. I place a casual call to that person and ask about the applicant. I work in a smallish field and sometimes it’s helpful.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      In security clearance world they ask almost everyone they interview if they could provide a few names of people that also worked with [candidate]. So they may be asking the references you provide for further contacts.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve been an informal reference for someone before because we came from the same grad program. They hired him anyway, so informal references don’t always matter. To be fair, he’s been quite successful and I’ve never had to work with him, so it’s all good.

  56. Greyscale*

    I am currently job searching and have a 3 year gap between my last job and now. There are a few reasons for this gap: 1) I had a baby and then got pregnant shortly thereafter and had another one, 2) our family moved cross-country for my husband’s job, and 3) the entire pandemic mess. During this 3 year timeframe I went to grad school (online, through our local state college) and received my master’s degree. 

    When potential employers ask about the employment gap, should I only mention that I went back to school? I’m afraid that if I only talk about grad school then they’ll wonder why it took 3 years or why I didn’t continue working while getting the degree. But if I mention the family aspects of the gap then I worry I’ll introduce unconscious “mom bias” into the equation. I don’t want them to think that I’ll be less dedicated to the job because I have two young children or have them think I’m a flight risk due to my husband’s job (his relocation is for an 8 year long contract so we’ll be here for awhile!).

    1. Manager on Staycation*

      I would focus on grad school. Depending on the program, 3 years is not necessarily unreasonable. And it seems least likely to introduce bias.

    2. Annony*

      How long does the masters degree typically take? I might talk about the move (and mention his long contract). I agree that it might be more risky to mention having two young kids. It shouldn’t be but you really have no way to know if your interviewer will be biased.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Three years for graduate school *and* a cross-country move sounds very reasonable to me, even without babies in the mix.

      1. Bloopmaster*

        +10
        Also, don’t forget it can take a while to find a job after graduating from a degree program (even in non-covid times). So a gap caused by 2-ish years of grad school and a new job hunt could easily take 3 years. The cross-country move is extra. You should be fine.

    4. VelociraptorAttack*

      I would say just focus on grad school. When people find out I did grad school, work, and had a kid at the same time they look at me like I’m a lunatic (they might be right). No one is going to have a second thought about it if you say you were in grad school.

  57. Working after Quiting?*

    Does anyone have any advice for continuing to work part-time or as a consultant/contract with your old job after you begin fulltime with a new company? I have ramped up looking for a new job and I’m resonably certain that my current job will ask me to stay on in some capacity until they fill my role. (They take FOREVER to hire and I basically built my department of two from the ground up). It’s a nonprofit comms role and if my timing works out I’d leave right before the year end giving campaign would start. Should I even entertain this (making a little extra during these weird times would be nice) or just make a clean break? If I wanted to have a conversation about this before deciding how much should I offer as an hourly rate (curently hourly rate x2?) and how many hours per week should I offer to them until they fill the position keeping in mind that I want to do well in the new role (being remote does make managing my time a little easier at the moment)? Anything thing else I should be thinking about with an arrangement like this?

    1. BlueBelle*

      I have done this before. My recomendation is to go online and search for a contract that you can make your own that will discuss your hours, your hours of availability (making it clear you cannot be available during your full time job hours), your rate, and the amount of notice you will give them if you need to quit.
      When I did this, the big problem was despite agreeing that I wouldn’t be available until after 4:00 PM they were constantly mad I wasn’t on calls for their meetings, or I wasn’t available to answer questions. I told them I would work 15 hours a week and most of that would be on the weekends. I had to quit, it was stressing me out too much.
      I hope you have a better experience, but be very clear with them about your hours of availability and do not give in. If you get caught working the second job during your regular job’s hours you could get fired.
      Good luck!

    2. (Un)solicited Advice*

      Make sure you take into account any non-compete issues. New Company might not be thrilled about you continuing to work for Old Company, even in a consultancy.

      Frankly, I think it would be way too stressful, due to all of the problematic expectations BlueBelle outlines. Plus, there are the tax headaches, as you’ll have to file self-employment, etc.

      If you do choose to pursue it, double to triple (esp in a high cost-of-living area) your hourly rate (round up to the nearest $10 so you’re not charging $72.11 per hour) is a good rule of thumb. Not sure what your role is, but you could consider if daily, weekly, or project rate would be more beneficial to you.

      And maybe limit the amount of time you sign on for. You will exhaust yourself if you’re doing 1.5-2 jobs simultaneously.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I’ve done this.

      My rate was 4x my hourly salary. My contract laid out rates (under certain number of hours, it was 4x, over that, it jumped to 6x…this was to limit the number of hours they expected per week), what work I would do, what work I would not do, expectations on turnaround time, what counted as work (texts, phone calls, emails) etc.

      I offered 10 hours per week at lower rate. They’ve pretty well kept to that.

      Get a real contract, reviewed by someone with legal experience. To be fair, my job is in compliance, so I included a lot of language about how I would not be held liable for any of their compliance actions, etc., as I would not be representing the company, I was providing guidance only. I would not sign any of their submitted reports, but could collate data for their review – that kind of thing. I also included a “if you don’t pay by 30 days after the invoice date, there is a fee”, and actually ended up having to use it. I included a statement of working hours – between 10PM-7AM CST I would not be able to respond (this was meant to cover emergency situations in the middle of the night, as that was part of my job before).

      Honestly? It’s working out great. I was able to cover a good chunk of the loss of my husband’s salary after he got laid off. I would like to move fully into consulting at some point in the future, so this was a nice, lower-stakes way to dip my toes in. Now I have a fancy website, I’m set up with accounting, and I’ll keep my old company as a client as long as they want me. It’s been nearly 6 months now.

    4. PollyQ*

      I’m too lazy to search the archives, but Alison has addressed this question in the past, and recommends not doing it at all. Starting a new job is extra challenging & tiring by itself, and you really do want to make the best first impression at the new job. I would ONLY do it if you really need the money. The fact that it’ll take them a while to find a replacement is not your problem to solve, and leaving is not a “harm” that you’re doing to them. It’s a normal part of business.

  58. Keymaster of Gozer*

    UK people? Can I ask if you’ve ever been asked to disclose mental health issues to an employer ‘for safety reasons’?

    (I don’t mind admitting to depression, but I really don’t want to admit to the schizophrenia….)

    1. BlueBelle*

      Whoa. No. They can’t ask about your health- physical or mental. That is crossing the line. I would straight up tell them I am not comfortable disclosing my medical history.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Thanks, I didn’t know how to read it. Are they asking because they want to keep ME safe or they want to keep others safe from ME?

        Hence not wanting to mention the schizophrenia. Yes, I hear voices sometimes but I’m not dangerous because of it!

        1. Xavier Desmond*

          Yeah it’s difficult to know. They may be asking as they are trying to make reasonable adjustments for any on going conditions. How were you asked? Was it a company wide email?

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I have, but I work on construction sites and they ask all kinds of stuff that seems intrusive to me. Usually it’s in the context of wanting to know whether I’m taking any medication or have any conditions that they would need to know about if I got injured on site.

      1. Lumberg’s pet Bob*

        They kind of seem expect you to have ”unspent convictions” if you are a builder… at least the previous gang I worked for had space in the enrolment form for entries for convictions per past 3 years…

      2. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Oh that I could understand no worries. I mean there’s a lot of jobs I can’t do just because I have epilepsy (it’s very well managed so I still can drive, but can’t drive commercial vehicles etc), or because one of my meds gives me issues with certain types of memory.

        Hence why I stick to IT. Computers are more forgiving of minor errors than heavy machinery.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      What’s the context? Is it an all-staff “by the way, tell us in confidence if you would like access to our proactive MH therapy provider” or “hey Keymaster, you’ve taken a sick day for MH so we demand chapter and verse on your precise diagnosis/es”?

      Because I’m pretty sure they only have the right to any medical information inasmuch as it informs the accommodations you need to do your job or a referral to Occupational Health.

      This sounds very dodgy to my UK ears.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        It’s from paperwork they sent me before an interview. Which is why it fired off my ‘eh? command not found’ error message in brain processing.

        I’ve had jobs I’ve been in for over a decade suddenly ask about mental illness and medications suddenly but I’ve generally been able to dodge those.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Thanks for the link! It seems a fuzzy area in law then, since they could in theory legally ask to know if an applicant has a mental illness that might make the employer or other employees feel ‘less safe’.

        Hrm. I think I’ll keep my brain weasels private. There’s enough fear and misinformation about things like schizophrenia out there that I don’t think I want to risk.

    5. Peter*

      My work picks this sort of thing up in the post-employment medical, but reading your comments I’d suggest putting the epilepsy (since it limits what you can do) but not the mental health issues on the application form.
      Basically it’s none of their business.

  59. Effie*

    I’m asking a question about income tax. Basically I have a potential job offer that doesn’t include health insurance (it’s an employee position, not a private contractor) so they asked me to name my hourly rate that includes them covering what I would pay for in insurance and they will try to match it. I did some searching and I would need about an extra $10/h after taxes (rounding for ease). So I have to figure out what the pre-tax rate is. I’m going to use an income tax calculator and compare with my previous stuff. Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this kind of thing? I’d love some advice.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      That sounds about right. I’ve heard that you should add anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 to your current salary to figure out a consultant rate. You also need to figure out the cost of your vacation/sick time if you won’t be receiving it.

      1. Effie*

        That makes sense. Luckily it’s an employee position that has limited benefits (PTO, sick time, etc) so just dealing with paying for my own insurance

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Very generalized taxes, if you’re single or the higher wage earner, with state withholding as well as federal, average about 25-30% will be reduced with taxation. Without state withholding, deduct 10% from that.

      Which is where the average 33% plus comes in for contract wages ;)

    3. Dancing Otter*

      Depends what state you’re in, because state income taxes vary widely. In Illinois, I found that allowing one-third for taxes was a fair approximation. I.e., to keep $100 I needed to earn $150.
      There’s also the factor of deductions for medical insurance coming out before taxes, while there’s no tax break for employees who have to buy insurance themselves. (Unless you’re one of the few who can itemize deductions, and spend an ungodly percent of your income on medical expenses.)
      So I would take your annual insurance premium plus 50%, divide by 2080 (52 weeks times 40 hr/wk) as the amount to add to your hourly rate for a non-exempt job. For a salaried position, just take the annual premium plus 50% to add to your annual salary.
      Be sure to look up the cost of the insurance you really want, not the cheapest insurance.

  60. AnonQ*

    I’m not in HR, but I am a freelancer, so I’ve encountered this before. The other permutation is that your professional friend Wakeen says, “Hey, AnonQ, I can’t do this gig, but here’s the info, give them a call.” In both cases, I’d definitely take the initiative.

    Since you have an email from your friend/colleague (let’s call her Jane), I’d just reply to that email (take Jane OFF the email!) and say something like, “As Jane indicated, I have a great deal of experience in llama grooming, and would love to schedule time to speak with you about this opportunity. I’ve attached my resume…… [the usual cover-letter type stuff].

    If it’s the other situation, and your colleague did not email the HR person, I’d just change the wording a bit to let the HR person know where I got their contact info. “Jane Hilbersham let me know that you have an opening for a llama groomer….”

    But in either case, do Jane a solid and take her out of the loop. Email her separately to say you contacted them, thanks for the lead, yay-I-got-the-gig, etc.

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      This is unrelated, but you might get better responses if you change your username. It sounds awfully like QAnon, which has been deemed a domestic terror group in the US by the FBI.

  61. rageismycaffeine*

    OH! I forgot, I wanted to provide an update on my question last week about an applicant providing 9 references and our decision to call them all.
    1) The applicant provided so many because after a brief career change, he’s decided he would rather be back in our field. He provided both current references and those that are relevant to our work. Still maybe a few too many, but I understand it.
    2) It is apparently our department’s policy that we will contact, or at least attempt to contact, every reference that we’re provided. I don’t know how I feel about this, but there it is.
    I’ve only been able to reach one of the three references that were assigned to me, so maybe the overkill was a good thing.

  62. Nessun*

    My boss has suggested that he wants me to take on more operational management this coming year as part of my goals. It’s something I’m willing to do, and he suggested a resource who’s good at it that I can reach out to. I’d love suggestions for courses (not full programs), books, or websites/podcasts I can add as learning resources for my development plan. I have very little background in this field, but im motivated and highly organized, and I can learn independently with the right tools as a starting point. My boss has high expectations and a lot of faith in me, so I want to get this started right.

    Also, if anyone has suggestions for starting my conversation with the possible mentor, that would be helpful – she’s in a different office, different time zone, and though we’ve emailed about some deliverables we’ve not ever really talked. We’re connected by my boss, who we both work with on one project.

    1. OtterB*

      Is there a professional organization or association for your industry? I’d look first to see if they offered any workshops or courses, since the demands may vary. Or, if you know there are particular areas you need to learn about, start there.

  63. DoubleE*

    Any ideas on how to make sure an intern has a good experience when they’ll be remote for their entire intern session? I work on an engineering team that usually has one or two interns (interns who return as full time employees after graduation are a major recruitment source for my employer). Our current intern joined the team in late June when we had already been working remotely for a couple months, and it now seems unlikely that we will return to the office before she returns to school at the end of the calendar year. As a result, she hasn’t relocated to our city, and has never met any of the team members in person (although we do have regular team meetings via Zoom). The team is doing a good job overall of adapting to remote work, but I worry that our intern is missing out on experiences and mentoring opportunities that she would get during a more normal internship. As a woman in an engineering field that is still very male dominated, it’s especially important to me that our female interns have positive experiences. Any thoughts?

    1. OtterB*

      Can you orchestrate some of the one-on-one conversations that would happy naturally if you were all in the office? Not a big deal, but schedule a 15-minute conversation here or there where the intern gets to talk about her interests and experiences and the employee talks a little about their career path and what they like about the field.

  64. cmcinnyc*

    My company keeps sending us appeals (addressed to all employees, mass email) to amplify certain projects or themes on our personal social media. The latest one (sent this morning) is for a cause I would be happy to support–but I *really* don’t feel comfortable crossing the streams of work/personal social media! I asked our leadership team about boundaries on this, and got a very wobbly answer that I interpreted as “oh gee we never thought this through and now we’re on the spot to answer a question about this publicly.” So–still no company guidelines, but yet again, they’re asking us to do their marketing. This is why I hate “bring your whole self” to work stuff. You didn’t hire my whole self. You don’t get to control my whole self. Back off, please. Can we have *some* business boundaries?

    1. Lovecraft Beauty*

      Yep, my first job out of college was very into the (young, mission-driven) staff using their personal social media to “amplify” the business stuff. It was only the tip of the lack of boundaries and it was such a relief when I left.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “Keep asking me these things and I will just shut down my social media. Problem solved.”

      Some places want our souls and it’s okay to find ways to say, “Nope. Can’t do it.”

  65. Rightfully Concerned*

    So my company currently has two brands, and I work full-time for one of them exclusively for 2 years. We’ve recently had a reorganization which basically “promoted” me, and that means splitting my time in between the two brands (50% on my current brand, and 50% on the other one). My responsibilities remain the same for my brand, but it’s something different for the other one, which doesn’t really fit in with my long-term career goals. Since we are super short staffed right now, and impacted by the pandemic, there really isn’t any negotiation, as I was promoted right away to get a morale boost.

    I have a more senior title and taking on more responsibilities for the other brand, except my salary is still the same. It’s only been two weeks, and I already asked about a raise regarding this, but keep getting told that they are still working on it. The company has a history of underpaying its employees, so I’m concerned that they’re going to pass over the raise, and avoid the questions in hopes that I’ll forget about it…

    Has anyone been in this situation before?

  66. Loves Libraries*

    I have a former coworker at a school who has a part time job in retirement. She works at a gift shop which has naturally had problems in Covid. The owner applied and received PPP funds but since it has run out he cannot pay his employees. My friend still goes in to “help out”. Is this legal? Would it be okay if the owner says he will pay once business improves? We are in Georgia.

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      Not legal. An employee can’t work for for-profit business for free, even if she genuinely wants to do so. The company can get in massive legal trouble for this; your friend is 100% not helping the company, even though her impulse is generous.

    2. CatCat*

      No, it’s not legal for the business to not pay employees for work performed. The state law will specific how often employees must be paid (this is usually every two weeks or twice per month). Why is your friend still going in?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          And a great many people are bored because of Covid precautions. They have found ways to fill in their time, that don’t involve breaking the laws.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      Thoroughly illegal, and importantly not something your friend can consent to. Even if she’s totally okay with it, the company would still get in major trouble if someone else reported it.

      If she’s bored, finding legal volunteer opportunities would be a much better idea.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Why….
      Why would you go for coffee and walks, and have long personal conversations with someone who constantly harasses and verbally abuses you to the point that you lost it and *bit* them?

      On the flip side, why would the other person confide in someone who does bizarre things like bite a coworker?

      There is a lot wrong there, and I don’t think “stress and anxiety” really cover it.

      “Therapy is too much effort, so I’m just going to roll with it.” Gee, I can’t imagine why they had trouble landing another job.

  68. Les sigh*

    Completely by accident I found out that my [single] manager is having an affair with a married colleague from another department. She told me I can’t say anything because our colleague’s husband doesn’t know. I know it’s none of my buisness but I have lost all respect for my manager and my colleague, and I feel sorry for her husband. I’m considering job hunting to get away from this mess as much as I like working here.

    2. Chicago*

      m confused;, because you say your manager is single (and she told you not to say anything) but you also say you feel sorry for her husband. Isn’t your other colleague a married man, so wouldn’t you feel sorry for his wife? Sorry if I’m not getting it. I understand why you are upset even if the details in your post are fuzzy.

      1. valentine*

        Isn’t your other colleague a married man, so wouldn’t you feel sorry for his wife?
        Married colleague is a woman married to a man.

        I like the implication that saying something would be okay if the husband knew!

        I’d report it.

        1. Professor X*

          +1. I would definitely be speaking to HR. Your boss is a manager while your colleague is not and even if your colleague is not directly supervised by her it could cause issues.

    3. Reba*

      “She told me I can’t say anything”

      she doesn’t really have standing to order your silence/demand your complicity in her affair, imo. Of course, you don’t want to gossip, but sheesh.

    4. Viette*

      Having worked in a similar situation I just want to say: it’s completely reasonable to job hunt to get away from something this potentially messy. It may settle to nothing or it may blow up, but this is definitely the kind of thing with a very high potential to become a whole disaster, and this is your direct manager. She told you “you can’t say anything”? She’s blatant enough that you accidentally found out? It has nothing to do with you but it’s going to be a part of your work environment, and it’s not a cop-out to decide that you just want to get the h*ll away from these people.

      Don’t leave for a worse job, but don’t feel bad if you leave. This is a Them Problem.

    5. CheatersManagerWhy*

      I know 2 coworkers are having an affair, where 1 recently got a divorce and the other is still married, and the manager of both has to know and I’m wondering…why are you not saying something here? They have shown they are not trustworthy on 1 subject – why would you trust them on something else?

  69. oona*

    I am a team lead at my job, not a manager but I do a lot of training and and documentation, and I am a subject-matter expert. Back in March we hired someone new for my team, Jane. Jane’s first few weeks were far from ideal with the pandemic starting and going fully remote, but fortunately my work is well-equipped for work from home. Jane’s training was virtual but otherwise work and training are the same as before the pandemic.

    It has been 6 months now and Jane is not performing at the level someone with 6 months of experience should be. She is not working independently and has not taken ownership of her work. I have a lot of examples, but I’ll stick with one that directly impacts me. I am overloaded with work and my manager let me assign some work to my coworkers. Jane has reassigned much of it back to me, saying it’s too challenging and time-consuming. That would be fine if she were dealing with something research-intensive or legal threats (which happen in my line of work) but she’s doing this when our customers ask clarifying questions. Many of these are questions we have pre-written responses for. I’ve directed Jane to these pre-written responses and told her she is welcome to modify them if necessary. I have to hold her hand through this whole process each time, picking out the correct response and reviewing every edit she makes, and then she still asks me to take the work back. This is not normal for someone with 6 months of experience. Rather than decreasing my workload, she’s increased it.

    I want to bring this up with my manager, but I am feeling very hesitant. I have never had this kind of issue with a coworker and I don’t want to cause unnecessary drama or a headache for my manager or Jane. I am also hesitant because starting a new job at the beginning of the pandemic must have been difficult and would shake anyone’s confidence and I want to be very cognizant of that and more patient than usual.

    So I guess I’m asking if I even should bring this up, and if I should how to present it constructively rather than as a vent or a complaint, so Jane has an opportunity to improve.

    1. Workerbee*

      Oof, I am not sure. Jane could very well be a bad fit.

      Still, this sticks out to me:

      “Jane’s first few weeks were far from ideal with the pandemic starting and going fully remote, but fortunately my work is well-equipped for work from home. Jane’s training was virtual but otherwise work and training are the same as before the pandemic.“

      To Jane, she may not find that the work is well-equipped for work from home. Nor, with respect, the documentation. You know this stuff backwards. Perhaps even to a point of unconsciously adapting it to less than ideal circumstances, but not everything is as intuitive to a new person or was conveyed clearly. She has no basis for comparison or frame of reference to a pre pandemic time.

      I guess I just wonder if the tasks were easier to comprehend in the pre-fully remote days, and if that’s obscuring what should be simple aspects. And it’s worth it to consider that six months really isn’t all that long in a new job, and incumbents need to remember that time moves differently when you’re struggling with all the new job things (and now, plus remote and COVID) versus having been in the same position for awhile and written the documentation for it, et al.

      If you haven’t already—-
      Can you ask Jane to be more specific as to what’s challenging her? Does she learn better through different forms of media? How about role playing exercises?

      1. oona*

        Unfortunately I am no longer in a great position to provide Jane with more exercises or guidance. That will probably be something for my manager to work out with her. We have two new hires and I need to prioritize supporting them right now. They are one of the reasons I started to realize we were having issues with Jane. They have both only been officially working on the team for a few weeks and are already working more independently than Jane.

    2. valentine*

      I’m asking if I even should bring this up, and if I should how to present it constructively rather than as a vent or a complaint, so Jane has an opportunity to improve.
      Yes, by simply saying Jane needs excessive hand holding and is rejecting easy-for-the-team assignments. The improvement wish is just that.

      Why does she even have standing to reassign back to you and what happens if you say no, she has to complete it? (Which you presumably have standing to do.) When you assign, why does the work remain yours, where you have to check it (or is this just for Jane because she’s new), and what happens if you return it to Jane to correct?

      1. oona*

        Jane is allowed to reassign escalated tasks back to me, again legal threats or tasks that end up requiring more research than we initially expected. She’s allowed to do this because she is still sort of new, though at some point she needs to own these types of tasks as well. Those basic questions that have pre-written responses she should be able to handle completely on her own by this point though. Most people in this role are working independently after about 3-4 months.

        I think I need some clarification and empowerment from my manager to push back when she tries to reassign these things to me. I am allowed to say no but I don’t both because I am aware she may be struggling due to the WFH/pandemic situation and I want to be helpful. It has now reached the point where I don’t think taking these off her plate is helping anyone though.

        I check Jane’s work because she asks me to and will not make any move without approval from me or another coworker. Her work is fine 99% of the time and does not need revisions from me. She’s been told a few times by me and at least once by my manager that she does not need her work reviewed any more and has toned down the requests, but they are still frequent. It is part of my job to review work when my coworkers ask for it, but my other coworkers only come to me for help when they are actually facing a difficult situation. Jane still comes to me for help with things we encounter regularly.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If she has been told by the boss that she does not need her work reviewed any more, then stop doing it..

          ” I am allowed to say no but I don’t both because I am aware she may be struggling due to the WFH/pandemic situation and I want to be helpful.”

          This is really flawed thinking and you would be well served by shedding it. I know because I had to shed it. We don’t help people when we follow this type of thinking. We actually encourage people to become more needy rather than less needy. This happens for several reasons. However the punchline is the same, stop the hand-holding approach. Tell her no and mean it.

          I might do this for a short bit before going to the boss. I would be concerned that I set up this false idea that she could or needed to keep checking with me. I might (depending on the particulars) feel responsible for resetting this misconception before going to the next step.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            I think the first step is when Jane comes to you with a question that 100% can be done on her own, you have to say that you don’t have time to deal with it. Then see what happens. Does she dig in and get it done? Does she freeze and not do anything? Does she start bothering other people, or continuing to ask you? If it’s the first, then she mostly needs a push to take the training wheels off. If it’s the second or third, you’ve got a major problem, and need to talk to your manager about what to do next.

            The fact that you have two newer employees, also trained remotely, that are outperforming her already is a sign that Jane may not be able to handle the job.

    3. Snarky Librarian*

      You absolutely need to bring this up. Jane isn’t doing the work she was hired for and isn’t showing improvement after 6 months? And is actively making your job harder? Your manager needs to know this, in a “just the facts, this is how it’s affecting my work” tone. It isn’t doing Jane any favors to ignore her struggles and it’s not causing drama to alert your manager. I’m rooting for you! And I’m rooting for Jane, your bringing up the issue may get her the help she needs to catch up!

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      “Delegating upwards” can be an individual anxiety response or a response to a more organizational issue, which I get the sense is maybe happening here.

      What sort of conversation do you have with Jane when she raises a question with you, you identify a pre-written response that she can ‘copy/paste and modify’? e.g. does she suggest edits to make to the response, or just wait for you to say “so, here in the letter to the customer it says: I’m sorry to hear you had problems with your purchase of ‘Shrek’, so you need to change ‘Shrek’ to ‘Die Hard 2′” etc?

      It may not be relevant to your experience so dismiss if appropriate, but I did work with one person who totally shut down in the face of any kind of ‘independent’ decision making like this, about even the most trivial things. In this case she felt (based on prior experience, not in my team) that there would be fallout and blaming later for having exercised any iota of any independent judgement, and just “froze” as a result.

  70. Shoe Woes*

    Does anyone have recommendations for women’s shoes that are interview/office appropriate but also will be comfortable for someone with plantar fasciitis?

    I recently lost my job due to COVID19 and as part of getting ready to job hunt I’m putting together interview outfits. Based on my experiences and my podiatrist’s recommendations I should avoid shoes with raised heels and/or thin soles, which seems to eliminate most typical women’s office shoes. The shoes also need to accommodate bulky orthotics. My previous boss was very lax with the dress code so after getting diagnosed I wore sneakers at work per my podiatrist’s advice, but I don’t think that’s going to fly for an interview. My thought was to look for Mary Jane style shoes with chunkier soles and an adjustable buckle to better accommodate the orthotics, but I have a really poor sense for picking “office appropriate” clothes so I don’t know if those are okay.

    If the industry matters, I was an administrative assistant in an outpatient medical office and I am planning to apply to similar admin and receptionist positions especially in medical offices and hospitals.

    1. Artemesia*

      One key to making this work is to wear an outfit that includes slacks. You can get away with very different shoes under slacks than with a skirt where they are more showcased. I have plantar fascitis and it is pretty much entirely controlled by wearing well cushioned footwear. I only have flare ups when I walk on hard ground in thinner shoes. I wear Merrill slip on shoes in black and with black knee highs and black slacks they are pretty much unnoticeable — make the visual interest the neckline — with jacket, blouse or shell and scarf — no one will notice the black feet. I have some that look like Mary Janes and some that are slip on clogs and both are cushioned well enough to protect the feet.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I personally think Mary Janes are very appropriate – many of my shoes are Mary Janes because without that strap they tend to slip off my foot. If you go to zappos dot com, you can limit your search to “comfort” brands, and you can even filter them to shoes that are orthotic-friendly. For example, I found the following styles you might want to search for…
      Propet – Mary Jane Walker
      Naot – Sea, Kirei, or Toatoa
      Wolky – Passion

      There are also cute flats that aren’t Mary Janes that are labeled orthotic-friendly… Arcopedico L14 (Leopard print! Love!)

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I have a couple of pairs of Mary Janes from Clarks that might be suitable. I don’t know how your orthotics would fit in them, but the strap is not only adjustable but velcro. They’ve got a thick, comfortable sole that’s good for walking when I’m at conferences, and don’t cause problems for my bad ankle the way high heels often do.

      1. Lyudie*

        Clarks were my initial thought too, I also don’t know about orthotics but they are well made and comfortable. I wore a pair of Clarks loafers for two weeks walking all over Lisbon several years ago and they were great.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Given that everyone’s foot issues are different, I;d recommend you look at Footsmart.com – they have a number of options. Or, given your industry, Nursemates might be an alternative.

    5. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Ankle boots work well for me. I put some kind of insole in just about every shoe I own but I like ankle boots in particular because you can wear socks + insoles and they aren’t visible at all.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wear Mary Jane style Danskos. They’re what nurses tend to wear.

      Honestly as long as you look like you’re wearing anything but sneakers or something ratty street wear, you should be OK in an interview. Interviewers should not be spending that much time assessing your shoes. They honestly rarely will notice unless they are extra-conservative dress code kind of place. Medical office = wear you some Dansko shoes and fit right in.

    7. Jenn*

      I love, love, love my Vionics. They are pricey, but worth it. They have a built-in orthotic and come in many styles. I usually window shop the Vionic website, and then try and find the shoe on Amazon, where it’s usually cheaper (though sometimes only by 3 or 4 dollars). I “stepped funny” around Easter this year and for three weeks, the only shoes I could wear were my Vionics.

    8. Snarky Librarian*

      I swear by my Rothy’s! I bought my first pair because I needed a flat that could accommodate my plantar fasciitis inserts and Rothy’s have a removable sole insert. Plus they’re washable. One caveat, they are pretty expensive.

    9. RagingADHD*

      Comfort shoes are entirely appropriate for your position and industry. I’ve never seen an admin in a medical office wearing pumps or any kind of severe heels.

    10. Shoe Woes*

      Thank you so much everyone for your shoe suggestions. It’s given me a lot to think about and work with.

      I wanted to follow up on something Artemesia said: how much does wearing a skirt change what shoes I can get away with at an interview? I don’t own any office-appropriate slacks, just knee/calf length skirts. COVID19 has financially hurt my household badly which really limits my budget for an interview outfit, and honestly most of the shoes suggested are very pricy for me, so I’m really hoping not to have to buy slacks on top of it.

      I’m sorry if this all sounds a little clueless, the job I just lost was my first office job out of college and it was a tiny outpatient therapy office where the therapists I worked for had a very wide range of personal styles and barely cared about what I wore. Because of that I feel really inexperienced in choosing interview/office appropriate clothes and don’t have much of a preexisting wardrobe to work with.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Maybe an option is buying an inexpensive pair of ballet flats in a half size or size up for room for the orthotic?

        Also try DSW. Granted this was in store, but I got a pair of Dansko summer sandals for about $25-30 that were on super duper sale plus coupon. They were originally about $130. Looking online for the brands is worth a shot.

  71. Academic Anonymous*

    Trying not to be a dog in the manger….

    I’m an academic. When I was first looking for a faculty job several years ago, I was eager to return to my alma mater, but the new department chair was not very supportive of my goals and I ended up taking an offer elsewhere. It was a heart-wrenching decision, and I miss my alma mater dearly. I’ve been at the other place for just over 2 years now, have a great job and supportive colleagues, but I don’t like the town/location at all, and I tend to waste time with mindless clicking through Alma Mater town on Redfin/Trulia/Google Streetview.

    They had been unable to fill the position for years (it’s been posted since 2014!), but I just learned that one of the current trainees has signed to stay on as faculty. Even though I’m not looking (and in fact turned them down two years ago!!) I am so upset by this. I know it’s ridiculous, but I don’t know how to reframe. Help?

    1. Reba*

      Yeah, this is a big complicated grief / “the ghost ship of my other life” thing (Dear Sugar, “The Ghost Ship that Didn’t Carry Us” — search this, maybe it will help!). Sympathy!

      In the near term, delete or block those apps and websites = stop feeding this particular daydream with so much detail.

      You’ve got rosy nostalgia glasses on for the alma mater, but you *know* there are reasons that job has been empty, and reasons it wasn’t right for you, too.

    2. Purt's Peas*

      I also thought of Cheryl Strayed’s ghost ships metaphor!

      I think you know you’re dissatisfied and you’re yearning for something that feels like home. That’s the most natural thing in the entire world. I think it may help to identify that. From there, you can settle and make your town feel more like home to you; or you can move. (Or both in succession.)

      I moved away from a little city I really liked to move back to my home state, and missed the city really strongly, for a while. I still do. I loved the roots I put down there, and the comfort of knowing each street, and the tininess–being able to bike across it fast and safely. I got engaged there! But I had to figure, even if I move back eventually, it’s not for me right now, and I always have that yearning for something different in me, and I had it even when I lived in that city.

      So I can’t quite help reframe because it’s so intensely personal, but I think it’ll be worth it to think through why you’re feeling this so strongly and figure out what you need to change in your current, non-ghost life that can satisfy this for now.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t live two lives concurrently. It will lead to emptiness as you show here.

      Either stop googling Old Place or make a concrete plan to get back there in a predetermined time frame. Set a deadline to get back there. This isn’t living, you are depriving yourself of leading a full life by remaining engaged with Old Place.

      Just my opinion, but you have dream life going on where you google the place and all it’s details. And then you have real life going on where you live and work in New Place. Every time you “wake up” (push back from the computer) from dream life you will find yourself discontent/restless/upset with real life. You haven’t taken the time to fill out your new real life yet. Your body and belongings left Old Place but your mind and thoughts have not left yet.

      I left home 40 years ago. Every so often I do a google street view and go up and down some of the roads I knew so well. I can see my old house. I can even see my nana’s tombstone because it is close to the road. I feel nothing but pure and total relief that I am no longer there. Knowing this, I am thinking you probably need to go back.

  72. Anon municipal employee*

    I’m likely to be offered an exempt management position (Llama Conformance Manager) soon. I’ll be moving from a union, non-exempt, Civil Service position (Llama Conformance Inspector.) Benefits are set, so my only negotiation point will be salary. I only plan to be here another 2 1/2 years, when I’ll retire.

    My current pay is X, including longevity pay. I’m maxed out in my position, so only increases going forward would be COLA, our current contract calls for 2-3.4% increase in 2021, depending on CPI. Rumors are that due to current economic conditions, exempt employees will not be getting COLA for the next couple of years.

    Part of my problem with accepting the promotion is the top of the management pay band would only be about a 5% effective pay raise when my longevity pay, lead pay, and expected overtime are taken into account. It really wouldn’t be a huge change from what I’m doing now, I pretty much run the work group as Lead. And I’m at the end of my career, so I don’t care at all about the title.

    I plan on offering an alternative, creation of a Senior Llama Conformance Inspector. That would keep me in the union, give me about an 8% increase in base pay – probably about equal the manager pay, and make future COLAs more likely (not quite guaranteed, we expect administration to try to open the contract to reduce or eliminate the COLA next year.)

    Thoughts?

    1. Kathenus*

      I know nothing about your field, of course, but when I was in union positions (both union and management positions at times) this would not happen. Management would be creating an additional bargaining unit position which presumably the union would support (more dues, for one). But management would be getting nothing, and a management position versus a lead union one are so very different from a management/organizational perspective.

      In my experience getting a position like that would be something a union would need to really fight for during negotiations for a new contract, and would likely have to give up something to get it. Among other things, it’s now a bargaining unit position that the union will want to keep even after you are gone.

      Maybe your situation is a lot different, but from my past union organization facilities it wouldn’t even be considered. Sorry.

  73. Andrew*

    Does anyone have any advice on how I can support my burned-out partner and help her take a sabbatical without messing up her career plans?

    My beloved partner is horribly burned out – she went to a top engineering school, immediately spent 6 years doing a difficult PhD in her field, jumped straight into a postdoc with an outright abusive boss, and for about a year she’s been working at a startup with unclear expectations, tight deadlines, difficult coworkers, and minimal support for professional development. She wasn’t able to take any breaks between these opportunities – she would have to leave a job on a Friday and start the new gig the following Monday, our last vacation was in 2016, and even over the holiday breaks she often has had to work – and she’s exhausted, anxious, and unmotivated.

    She feels like she needs 3-6 months off without any responsibilities to just recharge and reset. How can she do this without disrupting her career? Are there any other strategies she can use to recharge that have worked for you? As her partner, how can I best be supportive? Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      Does her manager at her current position care about the employees? She might be able to ask for a short leave of absence to re-charge. It is good for the employer to have workers who are not ‘cooked’ but are refreshed and able to tackle the work with minds clear and body rested.

      And if she is between jobs, a 3 month break isn’t a bad thing. She could explain that it was a planned break as she wanted to do something different after going non-stop for 7+ years. Maybe schedule a trip to someplace -not for the whole time- but for a portion of the time. That way she can say the 3 month break was for travel.
      (course with COVID, maybe staycation would be the better explanation)

      1. Andrew*

        She just got a new manager a few weeks ago – her previous boss actually passed away suddenly in June and everything has been on fire since then. She says that everyone feels like they’re really struggling and she’s not sure if she would be perceived as out of touch if she were to ask for leave.

        Good point about the fact that she’s been going non stop for so long, I guess that changes the context of a gap. Do you think she should try to line up her next opportunity first and then negotiate a later start date, or should she quit without something lined up?

    2. Reba*

      A gap of that length may not even require explanation!

      It often takes that long to find a job, so if you partner could plan 3 months of no work, then start looking but still not too much pressure to take a job for another 3 months… that seems really reasonable.

      I don’t see it as “disrupting” at all. In my field and my spouse’s, someone saying that they took a sabbatical or took time off to travel or go camping a lot or whatever would be pretty unremarkable.

      1. Andrew*

        If I can ask, what field are you in?

        I guess our concern is that she could take a sabbatical and then take longer than expected to get a job, thus leading to a big resume gap. Do you think that’s potentially an issue?

        1. Reba*

          I guess it’s always a risk that the job search will take longer than you plan. But I don’t think it follows that it would create a problematic resume gap, though, since people know that job searching takes a long time! But yeah, long-term unemployment does make rehire harder, so it’s a risk. Weighing it against the risk of spectacular burnout breakdown in the near term is the issue.

          Fields, culture/education and tech. We are weirdos I guess. But we know people who have taken long unpaid leaves or left jobs in order to: backpack around some region, hike a long distance trail, build a cabin, move in with family to provide care, do a personal creative project, and move cities via a very long road trip.

          Why haven’t you all (your spouse) taken any vacation in almost 4 years???? That part is crazy to me and is a major mitigating thing you all could be doing! Encourage your spouse to take small chunks of time off! Maybe that will make the question of the big chunk of time off clearer.

          1. Andrew*

            Good point, it’s a balance that we need to consider. She’s in tech on the hardware side, so maybe she needs to realize that not everyone is a workaholic. It sounds like your friends have been doing some interesting things!

            The biggest reason she hasn’t taken a proper vacation is that most of her leave time has been spent visiting family. All of her family is in one place on the other side of the world so she’ll usually take a ~2 week trip to visit them once a year. It’s always really crazy whenever she’s there, she’s quite introverted and everyone wants to say hi, and she struggles to recharge during those times. We’ve experimented with having some of her family come over here to visit us instead, which has worked pretty well but is tough with COVID.

            1. allathian*

              Now with COVID she has the perfect excuse to take some leave and just rest. Even two weeks of true rest could work wonders for her mentally. She doesn’t need to tell her family on the other side of the world that she’s taking the time off for herself this year. Sounds like she needs time off from work and from her family to truly recharge. If she’s still on the verge of burnout after two weeks off, she’ll need to think about her options again. I almost had burnout last year after a very intense project at work. I’m not in the US so I have a long vacation. We’re salaried but our working hours are monitored to ensure that nobody’s either slacking off or working too much, and we have very flexible working hours. We don’t get paid for overtime except in very exceptional circumstances but comp time is an option. After that big project I took two weeks off just on comp time and another four weeks on vacation. It got me out of burnout mode prettty well, but I do realize that most people can’t do what I did.

    3. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

      Your partner sounds a bit like me almost a month ago, though my situation was slightly less intense. I too bounced from job to job, each situation either toxic or highly stressful or both and I kept telling my partner that I needed a sabbatical, BADLY. Like you he wanted to support me during this time, and there were some big life changes he and I both made to address it, but while I was still in those less than ideal environments, here’s what we did that felt helpful.

      1- Partner lovingly reminded/nudged me to take breaks during working hours, and reengage in my self-care rituals if that part of my life started slipping. In practice this looked pretty basic, asking me if I had eaten or had water, or if I had taken a break, and if not when, and then would gently remind me of said break time if I was still plugging away at my desk.

      I got into yoga and mediation, at the recommendation of my therapist—all things for your partner to consider to help her cope btw. Since my partner knows how important those practices are to me (and can see the difference in my demeanor when I don’t do them) he will periodically ask me about them (as a way to check in) if I’ve had a particularly rough day/week.

      2-Sent me words of support/affirmation. Sometimes if his schedule permitted, he’d text me a really lovely note of encouragement, or one of the reminders I mentioned above while I was at work. It wasn’t every day, but once in a while I’d check my phone and see a text from my partner asking me if I’d eaten, or reminding me to breathe or just a line saying he loves me. Small gestures, but really thoughtful and did help me on particularily rough days.

      3- PTO and designated self-care days/breaks. When I had PTO I took it and leaned fully in to it so I could properly recharge. This looked like creating boundaries with work (not accepting calls, checking emails, getting caught up on projects), and sometimes deprioritizing socializing or catching up with friends so I could have proper “me” time and do things I wanted to do (which for me mostly looked like resting and eating really good food). When you’re in work situations that are highly demanding of your time but incredibly demoralizing, it can feel like your time doesn’t belong to you, and that the work is unfullfilling, at least that’s how it felt to me. I loved my friends, and definitely wanted to see them and spend time with them, but I found that I couldn’t fully enjoy being with them if I didn’t make time and space to do something nice for myself first (this might be different for your SO, maybe she’s extroverted), but setting aside a Saturday to listen to music, give myself a pedicure, cook a nice meal, or go get a massage (when it was safe to do so), just doing anything healthy that made me feel good, made a huge difference. Self-compassion and care are so so important and I’d encourage your partner to find ways to pour back into herself.

      4-Save. I don’t know if this is a possibility for your SO, but if she can pad out her savings, quit her job and then volunteer/work part-time (this might be harder to do in this climate, but not impossible!) and use the savings to cover expenses, she can get that sabbatical without having a gap in her employement. I’m doing a version of this right now to get the break I’ve been wanting. I quit my job last month, I moved in with my partner to cut costs and haven’t started working PT yet, but it’s on the horizon for next month. In the one month I’ve been off, I’ve been looking/applying for jobs and doing a LOT of resting, yoga, daydreaming, journaling, etc. to process and recover.

      Good luck to her because I’ve been there and it is truly miserable.

      1. Andrew*

        This is a really, really helpful comment – thank you! One of the big issues she has is that she frequently feels like she doesn’t have enough energy to do the things that make her happy (for example cooking a nice meal) – she’s just so wiped out that sometimes that feels like too much. Maybe it would be better for her to schedule a self-care day, as you mentioned, so that she can manage her energy around that instead of doing it on an ad-hoc basis. Thanks for sharing your experience.

        Did you ever get pushback from using PTO? She feels like everything is crazy right now and feels bad about asking for a break, but it’s not clear that the chaos or misery will ever slow down on its own…

        1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

          One of the big issues she has is that she frequently feels like she doesn’t have enough energy to do the things that make her happy (for example cooking a nice meal) – she’s just so wiped out that sometimes that feels like too much.

          Yup, I had this problem too. My advice is to start small. I started doing short meditations (5-10 mins) or 10-15 min yoga videos (love Yoga with Adriene on YT) before work and it helped me start the day on a slightly less tense note. My partner and I would plan to cook meals together or sometimes I’d tell him about a recipe I planned to try over the weekend as a way to keep myself accountable and do something I enjoy. Then I’d spend the rest of my off time napping or sprawled on the bed or couch reading a book lol.

          My PTO situation was kind of unique. A month or two into the pandemic my manager and I actually had an arrangement worked out about PTO and she was the one who proposed the plan to me. I think I took about a week’s worth of PTO off over the course of 5 or 6 weeks, so 1 day off each week. I’ll be honest it didn’t help as much as I’d hope because I was still working on those days, but I set a cut-off time for work and allowed myself to do whatever else I wanted for the rest of the day.

          Is there a way for her to formulate a plan? Say two or three weeks from now she takes a full week or maybe just a few days off. If she has a clear outline for general work demands she can start outlining that now, tell her manager, teammates whomever this is her plan for PTO, and then start working on getting whatever needs to get done, while reminding folks that she’ll be offline/OOO during key dates so it’s important that x gets done before then, or delegated to someone who can. I found that in my job urgent projects were never really as urgent as people made them seem and if you gave them a heads up and planned, they’d be willing to be flexible. I also tried to make myself less available during PTO…turned off my phone, avoided work email, screened calls from colleagues (but sent delayed texts to see if anyhing was urgent, it almost never was) this might not fly for her, if she’s expected to be on call, but this is her health and some boundaries need to be set. In environments where I haven’t been valued, and had unreasonable workloads I’ve had colleagues assume that I’m always “available” and learned that making myself a bit more inaccessible, gave them time to realize that the work could be done by them or someone else, or just might not be that pressing.

  74. JMR*

    I have a nice, low-stakes question. I hired someone who emailed us at 6 pm the Friday before her Monday start date to tell us she had accepted another offer. This position was supposed to support a super high-stakes and high-profile project, so having to go back to the drawing board on hiring was a real setback for the team. A few days later, I received a nice email from her saying that she would have loved working with me, she hopes we reconnect in the future, and suggesting we might connect on LinkedIn. I have no idea if backing out of an offer at the last minute is something that happens often or if it’s a bridge-burning act, and I haven’t responded. Is it worth responding to the email? Sending her a LinkedIn invite without an email? Just ignore it altogether? Am I making too much out of this, and backing out of an offer is not that big of a deal?

    1. Doc in a Box*

      Backing out of an offer is a bad move. Doing so at the last minute (Friday evening before Monday start??) would be bridge-burning in my field, and I think any professional field, honestly. Especially if the position is sufficiently senior to involve high-profile work.

      I’d probably ignore the email and move on.

    2. nep*

      Timing might have been pretty bad, but bottom line is if she received another offer and it was the right thing for her, she did what she had to do. I will be interested to hear responses here. I for one wouldn’t see it as a bridge-burner.

      1. ...*

        I agree. If the offer was significantly better or could improve her life with a much higher salary, its hard to hold that against a person. I really want to know how many people would not back out of an offer if they were offered a better job with higher salary and benefits.

    3. Always Late to the Party*

      I would say potentially burning a bridge is a known risk when you pull something like that. Presumably it was the right thing for her to do and was worth potentially burning it. I think you can do whatever you want as far as LinkedIn/email. If you want to connect, go ahead but it’s perfectly reasonable to ignore it.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Unless this person has an irreplaceable skill set, and you’re basically a fan following her around hoping for a scrap of her precious time and attention, of course this is a bridge-burning move.

      She’s got more nerve than brains.

      1. ...*

        Really? If you had accepted an offer but got another one for say, 25K more plus a company car (this happened), would you stick with the other one so you didn’t ‘burn a bridge’?

        1. RagingADHD*

          No, of course not.

          But I also wouldn’t expect the people I left in the lurch to be delighted to keep in touch or help me network!

          Taking the new job was probably a smart move. The linkedin request was tone deaf and presumptuous.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I think it partly depends on how she backed out of the offer in the moment. Was her email “Sorry, got a better offer” or “This was a very difficult decision for many reasons, please believe that I understand the disruption my withdrawal will cause at this late date etc etc.” But even for a brief rejection, she did follow up so points for not running and hiding.

      It also depends on how you prefer to use LinkedIn. Personally, I would probably accept or ignore the invitation based on whether I felt the connection would benefit me at all (e.g. expanding my network). No one other than your team and her really know the bridge-burning aspect.

    6. What the What*

      Imagine if someone came and posted here: “I accepted an offer to start Monday and I just got an offer for a job that pays better. I feel bad pulling out though. What should I do?”

      100% of replies would encourage them to do what’s best for them. It’s just business. It’s not personal.

      Some people would probably say, “Touch base with the person who hired you and try to leave a good impression.”

      You don’t have to connect on LinkedIn if you don’t want to. On the other hand, if they were a good candidate now, they will still be a good candidate 6 months or a year from now if their other job doesn’t work out.

      It sucks to have a set back. But this person didn’t owe you anything other than the courtesy of letting you know the timing wasn’t right in the end.

  75. HyacinthHippo*

    My company is 100% remote (in pre-pandemic times as well) and one of the things they do is have all company meetings twice yearly. Obviously that is not happening right now, so instead we’re having a virtual all company, which is fine. The trip planning committee decided each day should have a “theme.” Normally I’m pretty neutral about that sort of stuff (I am a lot more comfortable with rah-rah participation type things than most of the site commenters seem to skew I think) but one of the themes is PATRIOTISM. Right now?? With everything going on in our country?? (We’re in the US). I’ve already asked for more info on what these themes mean and shared that it makes me really uncomfortable, but I don’t know what to do. I feel this is an important thing to stand up for, but also I just closed on a house in December and my husband got laid off in July due to Covid and I need to keep my job. Am I off base with hiw inappropriate this feels? How can I push back here?

    1. BlueBelle*

      Ick. That’s my response. I would wear my white t-shirt with stars on it for the call and leave it at that. Unless they are sending out something political, I would let it go.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      Oh yuck. I would hate that (the patriotism theme).

      How are the themes going to play out? Like, are you supposed to wear themed clothing?

      If it’s not going to put you in a tight spot, you could use the theme to talk about what patriotism actually means to you. Like: wear a “Dissent is patriotic” t-shirt, share an article about civil disobedience, etc.

      1. HyacinthHippo*

        Yeah, apparently they mean themed clothing and zoom background stuff. Love the idea of a dissent is patriotic shirt, I might try and track one down, or do something similar for my zoom background.

    3. Ali G*

      You can be patriotic without being political. I’m sure that’s what they mean. Think 4th of July, not Nov 3.
      (And you just reminded me I want to take Nov 4th off)

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      Liberal Navy Veteran here and I second the *ick*.
      When I’ve been in similar situations, I will opt for a small flag lapel pin for formal occasions or my Navy hoodie for casual. No big stars and stripes or whatever.
      Good luck.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I think patriotism in the US right now means loyalty to the Constitution and to the ideals of what we *should* be.

      Fire up the Hamilton soundtrack.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Can you reframe it for yourself as emphasizing a dedication to improving this country through exercising the right to vote?

      But that is seriously a weird theme for a company to have. I mean, I work for a massive gov’t/DOD contractor and I would never expect that as a formal theme here and if it was ever proposed, I would expect so much pushback.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        To borrow from Stonekettle Station: If you want a better country, you have to be a better citizen.

    7. Morning reader*

      I don’t have a problem with patriotism unless you think it’s conflated in this instance with “loyalty” to the Orange one. I would take it as an opportunity to wear a Black Lives Matter t-shirt with my ITMFA hat and a Votes for Women sash with a combo Hamilton/Sousa mix tape in the background. Oh and sparklers.

    8. Kathenus*

      How about suggest that Patriotism day is Tuesday November 3, and it is an extra day off for everyone in the company so that they can all go vote. Done.

    9. ...*

      I would maybe try to focus on how we can improve the country for all citizens? Kinda like the ‘I love America so much I want to be great for EVERYONE!’ approach. To me fighting for rights is patriotic or fighting for healthcare or whatever, but not everyone shares that view!

    10. Jaid*

      I have a T-shirt with a picture of a cape wearing cat riding a unicorn. The cape is an American flag and the motto underneath the picture is “Meowica”

      Patriotic enough for me!

    11. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      “How can I push back here?”
      In your position I wouldn’t look to push back given your circumstances… as a (UK) non-US-er I probably don’t appreciate all the nuances of this, but I understand that patriotism in the original sense of loyalty and pride in one’s country have gotten conflated and diverged from that with ‘toxic’ patriotism in latter years… do you have any sense of your company making political standpoints other than this? Is it possible that someone on the fun committee just wants to have a day with the theme of “USA flags etc” rather than anything more political and hasn’t thought it through?
      What other themes do they have?

  76. Sarah*

    Life Pro Tip: My awesome boss left and I’m stuck with a new terrible boss, working remotely with a team who can barely function effectively in-office. My therapist recommended two tips to help in these trying times:

    1) Tape a visual reminder of WHY I continue to work at my current workplace to the corner of my computer monitor. For me, this is an ultrasound picture; my husband and I are expecting a baby in February and I’m trying to accrue as many PTO hours and dollars before her arrival. For someone else, it could be a visual reminder of retirement, family members, mission-driven work, etc.

    2) Every time my blood pressure rises after an inane/infuriating conversation with my terrible boss, my therapist recommends jotting down a list of the way this job is serving me right now (i.e. specific benefits, flexible schedule).

    Since implementing these, my stress level has significantly improved and helped me to see the bigger picture on a more regular basis. YMMV.

    1. Anon for right now*

      Thank you! I was going to ask a similar question–no terrible boss, just an imperfect connection between my strongest skills and my current obligations.
      1) My “visual reminders:” the mission of my organization; my paycheck (always useful!).
      2) My “list of the ways this job is serving me right now:” benefits, reasonable scheduling, opportunity to gain useful skills in project management, time management, tracking details.

  77. Kate H*

    We all know that a toxic work environment can skew the idea of what’s normal and I’m in desperate need of a reality check.

    I live in a state and county still hit hard by COVID-19. Our rates are similar now to back in April. I work in a small satellite office for a much larger company. Corporate has a small HR department but our office does not. Pre-COVID, HR matters were directed to our “We’re a family!” general manager.

    When our state went into lockdown, our business was deemed essential and most employees elected to begin working from home. When lockdown ended, we were ordered to return with a few days’ notice. Many people scrambled to acquire doctors’ notes to request WFH accommodations, with varying levels of success. It’s worth noting that most of us have jobs that can be performed 100% at home. In fact, I took on additional duties during the few months I was at home and didn’t miss a step.

    Now, a couple months later, there’s no communication or transparency. Some people have to resubmit medical documentation to continue WFH on a weekly or monthly basis. Some people are WFH permanently. Some people are WFH without documentation. One person was told that she had to return to the office because it was important for her team, only to find out that almost her entire team was WFH. HR has gone hands-off and seems to be letting leadership call the shots, even when medical documentation is involved. Nothing makes sense. Meanwhile, leadership is acting like the pandemic is over and inviting employees and their families to public events.

    Is it unreasonable to expect leadership to provide concrete reasons for our return to office when it’s putting our lives in danger for nothing? Is it unreasonable for us in the satellite office to expect the same treatment as corporate employees, where they’ll be WFH for the rest of the year?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Of course those things are reasonable.

      But when you’re dealing with unreasonable people, they may be unrealistic.

  78. Chloe the PM*

    Anyone have thoughts on how to prepare and look up salaries when you’re changing industries but not “profession”/job title?

    I couldn’t really find anything in the archives, and I’m using online tools, but its only as good as the data put into the system.

    I’m going from an industry that pays well but has been highly impacted by COVID and looking at similarly titled positions in other industries that pay significantly less for the same type of work (think 25-50% pay cut). I would obviously love to avoid the salary conversations, but I also want to realistic when asked expectations and show that I understand that I will not be making the same amount of money in the other industries.

  79. antigone_ks*

    College administration is failing the COVID-19 test
    Updates since last week:

    • Faculty Senate got the task force minutes and after review are now calling for an HLC investigation into the VPAA’s actions
    • Giving college Pres a deadline to ask VPAA to step down voluntarily; otherwise will move forward with vote of no confidence
    • Board of Regents investigating ethics complaints
    • Faculty member denied ADA accommodations has filed an EEOC complaint
    • Confirmed with state health department that info provided by administration re: contact tracing & communication is incorrect
    • Media investigation has begun
    • Students held a party on campus last weekend with an estimated 200 people attending; no members of Housing or Student Affairs attempted to stop them
    • Rumors: coaching staff were told to halt testing in order to keep the numbers down

    On the ground here, it feels like we’ve accomplished nothing. Writing it down, though, I can see that we are moving forward.

    2. Reba*

      Wow, a LOT has happened! I hope you feel you can have confidence in at least some of these avenues of response.

    4. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Crossing fingers either the President forces the VPAA to step down, or the backslash after the media publish it does. Also wishing the person who was denied ADA accommodations is considering suing.

  80. RJ*

    Long time reader but first time commenting:

    I left a job at the end of July because of impending layoffs and I’d really been looking to leave anyway but was hesitant to switch during the pandemic. I applied to several jobs- and ended up accepting one that I thought would be a decent fit and was a big pay increase. It turns out they were misleading during the interview about the role, even when asked direct questions, and have some questionably ethical business practices. I’d also interviewed with a previous employer that I really wanted to work for again but hadn’t heard back before starting the new position (think really slow government job application) but I did get a great offer from them and have accepted it. Any advice on how and when to break it to my current employer that I’m leaving after 4 weeks and how much notice to give? Due to the slow moving processes of the new company my start date is in October.

    1. Chloe the PM*

      I would say you just give them two weeks notice. But double check the employee handbook just in case.

      1. RJ*

        I was thinking that- but if I’ve only been there for a short period of time (it will be 4 weeks when I give notice) and am still training, maybe a week is sufficient?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Will you still be training at that time? If you are, you may wish to give no notice to them, do you need the job for money? Because they may cut you loose if you’re still training…we would let someone go early if they weren’t at least somewhat trained and filling any kind of gap, you know what I mean?

          1. RJ*

            It’s a 50/50 mix, doing some work while training on new systems. I’m not sure how they’ll react- I’m honestly hoping for a shorter notice period because of how awkward it will be to explain to everyone that I’m leaving so quickly.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              You don’t need to give them an explanation passed “I have another opportunity that came up, from when I was interviewing originally! It’s a former employer, so they gave me an offer I can’t refuse.” [The offer you can’t refuse is actually not working for shady-ethics-challenged folk, they don’t need to know that detail!]

        2. Chloe the PM*

          You never know when you will see these people again. Give two weeks. If they are a decent company, they will let you stay. If you’re in training, they may let you go now. Don’t ghost.

          1. RJ*

            Not planning to ghost- I just wasn’t sure how /when to break the news since it won’t be a fun conversation. Sounds like giving standard notice is the way to go though.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I’m nosy like this. But just FYI, it’s not rare that people quit this early on! The fact you give notice is a huge plus and shows your integrity.

              I’ve had people quit within hours or a few days over the years. It’s not a shocker and it’s not as painful of conversation once it happens.

              “I need to give my notice, I have another opportunity come up! My last day is in 2 weeks.” and then I go “oh darn, that stinks, I’m sorry to see you go so early! Let’s discuss transition.” or the standard “Thank you for the notice! I actually don’t see any reason for a transition period, so we can make X date your last. I wish you the best! Let me know if you need anything from us.” an I’ll usually circle back with them about their last paycheck and how that works, since it depends on the state.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m so glad that you got another offer and can leave that shady-shht behind you!

      Be professional, give them 2 weeks. You haven’t been there very long, you can leave them off your resume. Literally just be kind and graciously show yourself out :) Congratulations. There are liars out there, it’s NOT the norm, so please don’t let that shady weirdness scare you for the future, that’s my only extra unsolicited advice for you.

      I’m glad that your next step is a previous employer who you know you can trust, being burned by that shadiness can leave scars otherwise.

    3. What the What*

      Don’t be surprised or offended if they ask you leave immediately. If you’re still in training, it may not be worth their time and energy to keep you around.

  81. Sled Dog Mama*

    So this is an ongoing issue and just happened again, I’m sort of at my wits end because I’ve escalated it but the director is super non confrontational and there’s no on else to go to about it.
    I work in a medical clinic, we routinely do treatment procedures in the clinic. I am the Safety Officer responsible to the state for the clinic. One of our exits is directly off the control area for our treatment machine, the other exit (which is intended for staff at the other end of the building) requires walking outdoors further (total distance to the parking lot is the same). Some of our procedures are more complicated than others. When I started here 7 months ago I immediately noted that during our more complex procedures (usually scheduled just before lunch time) and really any time of day staff from the far end of the building were routinely walking through our control area to reach their vehicles, often having loud conversations or talking on their cell phones. I went to the director and explained that this is a patient safety problem and how I’d like to fix it (reminding people that it’s a workspace and is subject to the same rules regarding cell phones, and enacting a new policy that required staff to use the other exit during our more complex procedures, when we hang large orange signs on the door that say “Do Not Enter-Special Procedure in Progress” We are very good about only having these signs up for the minimum amount of time necessary. For the most part people have adapted really well, we had a few at the beginning who had to be told “Yes, we really do mean you.”
    Recently we had a temp person come in to fill in for someone who was out (front office staff) and that person walked directly through the sign on her way to lunch and when I called her on it her excuse was that she “thought the sign was there all the time” I’m somewhat floored by this response because to me it’s like saying well I know the OR requires me to wear certain protective equipment because of the signs but the signs are there all the time so I don’t have to follow what they say.
    One day a week we have a mobile Imaging truck that parks outside this very door, in order to bring patients to the truck they must walk through the console area (this is slated to be fixed in a renovation in the next few months. Most of the people who run the imaging truck are respectful and will do their best to not pass through while the signs are up. It is unfortunate that because of the layout of things there is no other way for them to get patients to the truck. Normally we do our special procedures M-Th but when we get covered up (as we have been the last month or so) we have to schedule on Friday when the truck is here. When they have to pass through the console area most area careful to go quickly and silently as the whole purpose of the do not enter is to minimize distraction. The special procedures usually take 40-45 minutes start to finish. Today we had a 40 minute procedure and had at least 5 different passes through the space. I can certainly forgive the one that was a patient exiting the truck (again there is literally no other appropriate way for the patient to get back into the building) but the person who brought a the next patient back rolled her wheelchair into the console area and stopped there to conduct her patient interview (verifying identity, medical history and that the patient followed the prep instructions etc.). I don’t want to get a reputation for harping on this but this was totally inappropriate firstly because there were 4 people who had no reason to hear any of that information who literally could not legally walk away from the area and secondly because she stopped in a location that could have allowed the other patient to see the patient we were treating on the video monitors we use to maintain visual monitoring of the patient during treatment (the procedures require the removal of some clothing).
    I know everyone was notified of the new policy when It was enacted both in person in a staff meeting and via email so most of my problems have been new people and temporary or vising staff.
    I know I need to talk to the director about this again but I’m getting so tired of this. I’m think of writing up a notice for anyone temporary or new that basically says “hey these orange signs are about patient safety, and our safety person will rip you a new one because this is your warning.” In a slightly more professional way.
    The director will usually listen and not do anything when I bring up things like this, partly because I try to address things in the moment but I am hesitate to address things in the moment with patients present and sometimes people move so fast that I can’t stop them in the area (and I can’t leave the control area during the procedure).

    Actual Questions: Am I off base for thinking 7 months is enough of an adjustment period? Any better ideas on how to frame things so co-workers get it? What can/should I say if I do make a notice to hand out? If you were the patient would you have a problem with someone caring for you being called out in front of you?

    1. valentine*

      I get not wanting to upset patients, but can you park yourself at the entrance or sit a security guard there to turn people away? People don’t read or follow signs. There’s no perfect sign that a majority will obey. If you’re willing to be strict about it, people would respond better to, “Stick to the employee exit. You don’t wanna tangle with Sled Dog Mama.”

      Can you divide the console area or have a second jetway, for patients returning to the building?

      Staff should’ve always been restricted to their exit. What you need is a locking, badge-requiring, door for your area that stops randos using your exit, and a penalty for those who loan out their badge.

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Do you have a HIPAA compliance officer? Or someone in Legal? Words from them might help. Also I think it’s fine to call out the behaviour when it happens, as a patient that wouldn’t bother me at all if it was done kindly (“you might like to go over here, it’s more private,” “I’m sorry, but I need to ask you to move from this area” with a smile to the patient and a side-eye to the co-worker).

    3. Reba*

      re: addressing things in the moment in front of patients — do you think that a quick “Hey, Staff Member” with a meaningful look would be enough to remind them? You don’t have to like, dress the person down in front of their patient, it sounds like they have been educated enough now that a nudge ought to help.

      And yeah, maybe you will be known for this, and that’s ok I think!

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Is there a way you could put an exit chime on the door/doors leading into this area? So that everyone is notified that someone is coming/going through that door and whoever is responsible can come issue appropriate corrections, and eventually they start to associate the door chime with “I’m going to get a talking-to for doing this?”

  82. Prosaic*

    Re: Counter-offer etiquette

    So one of my direct reports told me that she accepted a new position at a nearby company and would be starting in two weeks. Of course I’m a little disappointed, but I wished her the best of luck and started making plans for the transition. For the record, she was a decent worker– not spectacular, but good character and pleasant to work with…which is to say that I think we could find a replacement in due time.

    My husband asked if I considered making a counter-offer. I told him no, since it seemed like her mind was made up, her performance wasn’t outstanding, and I’m fairly certain that we wouldn’t be able to make a competitive offer. Still, in response to my direct report’s resignation letter, our head of HR wanted to “talk about ways to keep [her],” which makes me wonder if I erred by accepting her resignation instead of trying to put together a counter the moment I found out.

    Opinions? Is it typical to try to counter every (or even most) resignation?

    1. MissBliss*

      I don’t see any reason to offer a counter offer for an employee who was decent but not spectacular, whom you think you could replace fairly easily, and for whom a counter offer most likely would not be competitive. (Even scrapping the last point, I think it stands!) The only situation where I could see that being a thing was if it was a particularly bad time to lose someone… But even then, I’d probably just try to negotiate with the employee that they stay on a little longer, if that would help.

      1. Prosaic*

        Makes sense! I was really thrown by our HR’s response (maybe it’s just a boilerplate response to all resignations?), so I had to get a sanity check.

        1. irene adler*

          Counter-offer is less work for HR-right?
          Maybe HR is seeing this only in terms of the work they need to do. An trying to get out of it.
          (not a good company strategy)

          1. Prosaic*

            Our HR in general is very helpful, so I’d like to think this isn’t a matter of laziness on their part. Maybe employee retention is some metric they measure themselves by, but I would just be guessing that that point!

            The more I look at HR’s response, the more I think might be a standard procedure to cover their bases and make sure the employee isn’t leaving over circumstances that could be addressed.

    2. Incessant Owlbears*

      I used to work for a place where the CEO was incredibly insecure. When someone left, he took it very personally, and often wanted to counter offer even when it didn’t make sense. He just hated the thought of “losing” someone. So it may be more about them than about the coworker’s quality.

  83. KellyAF*

    Last fall, I presented a paper at a regional conference for a software I use heavily. It wasn’t super-prestigious or anything, but it still seems like something I should put on my resume, right? I got the paper accepted, wrote it, and presented it to good feedback. How should I put it on my resume? A separate section for papers seems like overkill, since I’m not in academia or anything and just have the one.

    1. BlueBelle*

      Congratulations! It is a big deal and it feels good to get the recognition from your peers. I don’t include it on my resume, I do include it on LinkedIn and I will mention the latest one or latest speaking engagement in my cover letter.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That’s what I would do (LinkedIn + cover letter) until you have one or two more to put in an “Invited Speaker” or “Conference Presentations” category on your resume. It’s a great accomplishment and you should definitely make it known.

    2. Friday afternoon fever*

      Did you write it while in or related to a job or research position? You could also put it in a bullet under your experience there

    3. Veronica*

      I’m in engineering consulting. Our resumes usually have lists of papers, posters and book chapters we have authored at the end. I pick and choose from my list and usually do a couple that highlight what the resume is designed for.

  84. Jane*

    I need some advice on health insurance fuckery.

    So, for context, I’m located in Washington State. Our small company just got bought by a much larger company with significantly worse management, and in signing on, it was understood that those of us who were waiving health insurance were getting a $500 add-on to our paychecks every month.
    That’s $6,000 a year.
    THAT MAKES A GODDAMN DIFFERENCE.

    Anyway so they switched healthcare providers briefly in July to cover a cap in coverage (which ended up still leaving most of my coworkers insurance-less for a month) and our bookkeeper JUST found out that they decided to stop doing that waiver.
    Without telling anyone.
    I’m currently scouring my offer documents for mention of that waiver, to see if I have it written anywhere–not that it matters, Washington is an at-will state–but I’m shaking. Monday is payday and my tuition for fall quarter of graduate school is due on Wednesday; without this add-on, I’m going to be $250 short, and that is not a small chunk of change.

    (to be fair, i personally will make it through this, whatever the outcome is, due to a solid support system and savings, but I am LIVID.)

    I know my hands are pretty tied, but I would love to get some perspective on this/advice for how to address this in a staff meeting (I’m a supervisor and none of my employees knew. Thankfully none of them were affected).

    1. BlueBelle*

      That is some shady sh*t right there. I hope you have it in writing, either in your offer letter or in a company communication. People are going to be so upset. Since they are backing out of this deal are the extending enrollment to give people an opportunity to enroll? Or was it a bait and switch.

      Good luck!

    2. Jane*

      update: apparently this is the result of a massive communication gap.

      I have a history as an executive assistant, and I straight-up offered to step back into that role for this company, knowing that it would be managing multiple dumpster fires. This catastrophe is physically painful to witness.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I hate to be this…person. But what your old company offered you doesn’t have to be honored by a buy out company, unless they signed specific clauses acknowledging they’d offer a legacy plan for a period of time.

      Everything your original company promised you is now in the wind. It’s good to say “This is what was happening, this is our proof” but in reality, it doesn’t have to be acknowledged by the new company. Their rules are now in play.

      They can also remove this kind of waiver system if they do wish to. It’s actually an awful thing to have in place, they shouldn’t be offering people money instead of insurance, it penalizes people who have to have their insurance while helps people who can find other options. It’s ill advised and all I’ve learned over they years says don’t do it.

      This doesn’t make your situation any better, it’s not your fault you were offered something that was a good deal and made such a big difference to you! But sadly, you’re kinda up shitscreek :(

      With Washington you do have to have your compensation in writing though, make them give that to you. It’s to avoid wage theft. I have to give someone an offer letter with their wages included BUT it’s only their base, special other add-ons wouldn’t apply. Like a bonus structure that’s regularly in place.

  85. Exhausted Parent*

    I work for a large outdoor retailer known for their corporate stewardship and progressive ethos. This company was also recently awarded a top ranking as best employer for a certain demographic. Those of us in the corporate HQ have been working remotely since March, and teams have been encouraged to be flexible with exact hours worked, in general. Since it became clear that schools were very unlikely to resume in-person instruction, those of us who are parents have been asking for our employer what would be done to support us as we attempt to work while parenting/teaching. Other top employers in our area have offered enhanced PTO, loosened performance and goal expectations, etc. Our employer just announced our policy, and I think it’s awful. We are presented with “flexibility options”: split hours (e.g., work extra early, then extra late, taking time in the day to parent), work four ten-hour days, or work weekend days. In all cases, the expectation is you’re still fulfilling all the hours, just maybe at different times. Even if you have an alternate schedule, you must still be available by phone during “off hours” if your manager or colleagues need you. Any alternate schedule must be approved by a manager; the policy does not guarantee any employee will be approved for an alternate schedule. All business goals and standard productivity levels must continue to be met. Performance will be evaluated under the same standards as any other employee (e.g., you don’t get a lowered bar just because you’re spending hours caring for your kid(s)). Failure to uphold performance standards is grounds for termination. Each page of the policy has a disclaimer that this policy can be revoked at any time, for any reason.
    Obviously I can’t share the exact text of the policy, but none of the above is an embellishment. I’m really upset by this; in my opinion, it conveys no empathy at all for the situation parents have been put in. There’s no actual investment or risk our employer is taking on with this. It all falls to the employee. And if anything, the way it’s written doesn’t really protect any rights for the employee (since it’s all at the manager’s discretion and can be revoked at any time), but does seem like a giant CYA for the company (specifying that performance metrics must continue at 100% and failure to maintain performance is grounds for termination). Am I unreasonable here? Is this a “fair” policy?

    1. Reba*

      It’s definitely disappointing that there are no substantive adaptations being made. I don’t know that I’d use the language of fairness, but it definitely sucks and is especially grating coming from a progressive company that is supposed to be a great place to work.

      1. Exhausted Parent*

        Thanks; “fair” is definitely not the right term, but I’m struggling with what is. If anything, I think this policy may have been guided too much by a fear of being seen as unfair to non-parents. The emphasis on equal performance measures, making up time (most of us are exempt employees…), etc. makes me think they’re worried about backlash for giving parents special treatment. I’m so disappointed, especially since our CEO kept promising a policy “to support parents,” and this really doesn’t accomplish anything.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I don’t know… people in a “butts in seats, 8 to 5, provide a report at the end of the day that says what you did” situation probably consider it comparatively supportive.

          1. Exhausted Parent*

            Right. But when you work for the company literally just named Forbes’ top employer for women, and that emphasizes work/life balance and getting outside, it’s pretty hard to see this as supportive. We’re in Seattle, so there are plenty of employers around here doing far better. I’m going to start responding to recruiter inquiries, that’s for sure.

        2. Reba*

          Yeah, I see what you’re saying.

          I know that’s a view (“special treatment”) that gets voiced in comments here pretty often, I don’t know how representative it is. But FWIW, as an intentionally childless person, I would love to see a company extending help to parents! I would take it as a good sign of a humane workplace.

          Parents are so screwed right now, and they have particular needs tied to, you know, CHILDREN! People may grumble a bit but I think there is general agreement that parental leave after birth or adoption makes sense and is necessary, even though it’s something only parents “get”… but for whatever reason as a group we can’t extend that and be a little imaginative about the current emergency?

          1. BRR*

            Also a childless person and I’d also like to see more options for parents than this. I will say though after five months of this and likely a lot of time left to go, its understandable to Start to tighten up expectations. But there has to be some options between this policy and parents just being kept at full salary with lower goals.

    2. PollyQ*

      I’m sympathetic to your position — parents, especially of young children, have really been put behind the 8-ball by COVID and by how badly we, as a nation, have dealt with it. But honestly, I don’t think your company is being terrible overall. Yes, they could ease up a little on all the threatening fine print, and I’m sure they could’ve said it all more sympathetically, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to tell parents that they need to be doing the same amount of work as non-parents. I’ll also point out that they’ve almost certainly taken a huge hit from COVID, since people aren’t shopping in stores, and aren’t traveling. Allowing a subset of employees to work, say, 20% less while getting the same pay & benefits may be too much of a hit to their bottom line.

      (On a political note, I believe the problem of working parents needing to care for/educate their children in the middle of a pandemic isn’t one indivdual companies, especially ones that may be struggling, should be expected to solve. To me, this is where a reasonable government would step in with a regular allowance for people who are unemployed, or people who can’t work full-time while taking care of children or other family members.)

      1. BRR*

        Yes to all of your second paragraph. I also don’t think the company is being unreasonable. I’d say it’s hovering between the bare minimum and slightly below the bare minimum (it depends if the CYA language is more of a formality or if some parents will be screwed over).

  86. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

    I want to thank the folks who offered advice in last week’s thread on how to give critical feedback on a resume revamp I consulted my career coach for. TLDR is that I wasn’t fully satisfied with the outcome (too much copy and a few graphic elements I didn’t care for). The Man, Becky Lynch gave great tips for framing my response as professional feedback, and as they aptly put it “You’re giving professional feedback, you’re not telling a friend her dress looks unflattering ;)”

    Well, unfortunately, it seems like that’s how my coach received the feedback. I’m still in shock over how quickly our positive and productive collaborative relationship went south over what, to me, seemed like pretty low stakes feedback. For those of you who have made it this far and have the bandwidth or curiosity to read further, here’s our exchange:.

    Hi Coach,

    Hope you’re well and taking care. Thanks again for revamping my resume, there are lots of great additions here, and I can’t wait to start using it!

    Here’s my feedback:

    Content
    Overall, I really appreciate the copy edits to my job descriptions and titles. You’ve really punched up the language for my responsibilities and accomplishments, thank you! These changes will be useful talking points for future interviews.

    I love what you did with the About Me section, and find the bio useful, but I’d prefer not to use one on my resume. I can definitely use this copy as my “elevator pitch” in interviews or cold intro emails.

    I’m curious to know what made you include my internship experience at [former employer] instead of my role at [other former employer]?

    Design
    I appreciate that you made the resume more playful, but I prefer to have a simpler design without the added graphic elements, like the text box around my name/job title and the sneaker at the bottom.

    That’s it! Thanks again for putting this together, I really like how it’s shaping up. Let me know if you have any questions.

    Stay safe,
    Garnet

    Her response a few hours later (some info redacted for brevity and my paranoia):

    Hi Garnet!

    Thank you for the feedback. I greatly appreciate it although I’m EXTREMELY surprised since you gave the impression you were open to trying something new. I was upfront about my style and intentions for the new resume, so your feedback has me wondering where communication disconnect occured.

    I’m VERY curious to know about your reluctance to use the About Me section in the resume. As we discussed, adding personality and providing insight to an employer about your work persona helps differentiate you from the competition and with hiring decisions. [Here she advises me to reconsider removing it, and the rationale for that.]

    I will remove the design elements. Again, knowing that you weren’t open to design elements would have been useful to know in advance and saved me a LOT of time. In the future, please make sure to be clearer about your expectations and preferences.

    I should have the final resume ready for you by the end of the week.

    Enjoy the rest of your day and continue to stay safe!

    I want to note that I fully expected her to push back on my decision to remove the about me section of the resume, and assumed she’d ask me to reconsider. When I first drafted my email, I included a line about why I didn’t want the about section, but decided against it because it seemed petty to say I’d prefer not to have it because it was too much copy. I thought framing it as a preference would seem more neutral.

    As for the other bits about our agreement and conversation, yes she did mention in our phone chat that she would spice up my resume and incorporate color to make it more playful, and I was totally open! I figured that since she’s a former HR professional the embellishments wouldn’t be anything too wild (and they weren’t). She also asked me a series of questions, which I thought she’d use to spice up my responsibilities and accomplishments, but now that I think about it, it seems like most of that info shaped the bio in the about section.

    I’m open to being wrong here, but I’m of the belief that I fully reserve the right to be dissatisfied with minor design elements (the overall design is fine, just not my preferred style) and the inclusion of an about me section (granted, there were some minor content edits I didn’t share because I felt I could adjust them myself once she shared the template). Ya’ll is there something I’m missing here?

    I talked to my partner for a sanity check and his thinking was similarly aligned with mine, but he added that maybe she responded in this way because 1. I didn’t provide rationale for omitting the about section, which I totally own and 2. she might’ve expected my edits to be focused on content instead of design. To clarify, a revision process was included in the revamp package agreement, and I paid for the service in full once she started working on the draft.

    Another thing my partner and I agreed on, is that I should’ve asked for work samples before moving forward in the process. Lesson learned there!

    Either way, I decided that there was a major miscommunication, and I could hopefully rectify it by apologizing, owning the parts I needed to own, and accepting the resume as is, as a sign of goodwill (I know I had a right to revisions, but I just wanted to do damage control). So I wrote back with:

    Hi Coach,

    I agree, I do think there was a miscommunication. I was, and still am open to trying something new and admit that I didn’t have any parameters for what I was looking for. I apologize for not offering more specific guidelines and directions at the outset.

    I recognize how frustrating it must’ve been to put time and effort into it, only for me to ask you to change it. To clarify, I only wanted to remove two design elements: the sneaker and the text box, the rest of the design is fine. I also think I misunderstood what the revision process would be like—could you clarify what you were expecting on my end?

    My reluctance to use the About Me section comes from personal experience. I’ve found from interviews that employers (even HR folks) review resumes at a glance, and I’m concerned that having the additional copy, might make my resume harder to read, or that reviewers will miss/overlook important details. You’ve raised some good counterpoints to those concerns, so I will use it.

    I didn’t intend to waste your time, so no need to edit or revise the resume any further.

    Thanks for your feedback.

    A few hours later I got this (again lightly redacted out of paranoia):

    Hi Garnet,
    I’m not upset about removing the design elements. I’m upset because it seems that all my discussions with you about my resume writing approach, strategy, and 20+ years of recruiting experience all fell on deaf ears. The About Me section counterpoints you’re now agreeing with had been spelled out for you in our initial conversations about my resume writing process. So hence me scratching my head at you thinking this is a new revelation.

    Listen, I don’t want to argue. I want you to have a resume you feel confident about. But I also want your resume to represent YOU and not be a template that looks and sounds like everyone else’s. [ here she mentions that her process is unconventional, has worked in the past, and will make me stand out]. I also thought you hired me because you respected my approach, understood my logic, and trusted my professional expertise.

    Regarding my expectations for the feedback, I was looking more for edits to the content, and not solely the design. I’ve removed all the design elements from the resume and am happy to discuss content edits, if you have any. I’ll be sending you the resume as a Word doc so you can edit the content yourself if desired.

    I hope there are no hard feelings. I have great respect for you and your creativity and was simply trying to translate that to employers on paper. So my apologies if I misread or disrespected that in any way.

    Have a good evening.

    This one really through me for a loop because it seems like she’s the one who feels disrespected. (Again, please call me out if I’m wrong!) I’ve been scratching my head over how a few minor comments, on my end, about a resume escalated into full blown “argument”, disrespect for her expertise, and a lack of trust. Based on this response I’m thinking she assumed I would accept the edited resume, without question or feedback.

    When I first received this email, I was a bit stunned by the 180 in tone, once I offered up critique. Up until this point we’ve had a great working relationship and I’ve gained so much from her insight. This email also read as oddly condescending and paternalistic to me? For the record I’m in my late 20s, and coach is roughly 20-30 years my senior.

    This exchange also didn’t land well with me because I’ve been on the receiving end of the type of accusations she’s throwing my way. I’ve had my professional experience invalidated and called into question, and have repeatedly been in situations, where I’ve not been trusted to do the work I was hired to do. That’s part of the reason why I consulted a career coach and I would never want to do this someone else!

    I’ve also been in professional situations where people have had major knee-jerk responses to my feedback, so there’s a piece of me that was triggered by this email exchange. As ashamed as I am to say it, I had a short frustration cry about it. In my professional life, I’ve desperately wanted and sought out constructive critical feedback on my work and I’ve only been met with vague or paltry responses and perfunctory thank yous. When the tables turn, and I’m asked for my feedback, opinions, ideas, etc. people either aren’t receptive or just don’t listen. My last manager was the classic case of someone who could dish it, but couldn’t take it. She’d constantly nit pick and tear my work apart (with no clear insight on how I could improve or do better) but the minute I offered my feedback (always solicited by her, because god forbid I do otherwise) she’d get visibly and vocally upset!

    I’m all for defending yourself and your work but, this isn’t the kind of response I’d expect from someone who truly believes in the value of their work. She already has my money, and I understand why she wants to press ahead with making the revisions (contract), but I don’t know why she felt it necessary to give me a dressing down about her skill set and track record. I came to YOU because of YOUR skills and background, I asked for YOUR resume help because I trusted you. Can’t I trust your skills and expertise and disagree with/pushback on some of your suggestions. If you think I’m being a hard headed millennial, the joke should really be on me because I paid you and decided not to take your advice!

    I wrote her back two days later and apologized, that’s it. I told her it wasn’t my intention to offend her, but that I did do that, and I’m terribly sorry for it. And it’s the truth.

    1. Workerbee*

      I’d have said not to bother writing back with an additional apology because you didn’t do anything to warrant that—but if this closes the communication loop with her, then it’s all good. Follow your instincts and don’t be swayed by her hyperbole and capital-word emphasis.

      1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

        You pretty much nailed it. I truly felt bad, and wanted to mitigate any ill-will and close the line of communication, but I also didn’t think anything I said was wildly disrespectful? It was kind of bizzare.

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Seems like she is taking it way too personally. You’re a client buying a service! It seems odd.

    3. Reba*

      Both sides are experiencing this in overly emotional terms, IMO. She is being over the top and you are apologizing excessively and feeling bad about this needlessly. It definitely sounds like your painful past experiences are coloring this exchange. And maybe that’s true on her side as well!

      To be clear, I would have been shaken to receive these testy emails, too. But nothing about this, to me, rises to the level of “disrespect” or “terribly sorry”!

      1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

        You’re absolutely right. I was 100% triggered because of past experiences and leaned into apologizing partially because I felt bad, but mostly to de-escalate because I was teensy bit fearful that things would further implode if I didn’t.

        1. Spencer Hastings*

          Oh man, solidarity! I’ve been in a similar situation — I was ostensibly given a choice between two things and then lectured at when I picked the “wrong” one. This was a private music teacher in my university days (i.e. someone I was paying for a service in much the same way), and we were deciding which piece I would learn next. She gave me a lecture about how she did things for a reason, and gave me a very similar line about her years of experience. (Why she presented the thing as a choice to me in the first place was also a mystery.)

          The more I tried to de-escalate and emphasize that both options were great and I was excited about playing both pieces eventually, the more she responded as though to someone who was treating her with hostility. In the end, she successfully reverse-psychologized me into doing her preferred option, because she’d convinced me that I was being “mean” (which reminded me of childhood experiences where I actually *had* been mean and hostile that I wanted to distance myself from).

    4. cmcinnyc*

      Her response is… bizarre. I have written copy for people and almost never are they happy with the first draft. Usually because once they see something concrete, they are able to really think about what they do and don’t want…concretely. For most people, starting from a blank page is difficult. They have a hard time envisioning/articulating exactly what they want. *That’s why they’ve hired someone in the first place.* If you knew exactly what you wanted to say, how you wanted to say it, and precisely how it should look, you could have just done it yourself! If this was the 5th time you were coming back to nitpick the resume and were changing your mind for the umpteenth time, her tone might make sense. But for coming back on the first go-round? She is way, way off base.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Her response is really unprofessional and defensive, and frankly weird. If she offers revisions, this is how that works! If she offers a professional service, people will have feedback on it! She’s making this strangely personal when it shouldn’t be. (Also, she put a sneaker on your resume?)

      2. voluptuousfire*

        Maybe it was a reference to getting her foot in the door…? :D

        I’ll see myself out. LOL

        1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

          LOLLLL! But yes she really did but a sneaker on my resume. And thank you Alison!

    6. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I have been in these situations before, where I am working with a creative on a project and when what they design and what I am looking for don’t align, and they take the feedback personally. Nothing you said in your email was a critique on her as a person or a professional. You just disagreed with the “final” version of the product. Nothing you said was disrespectful and in fact, I think you capitulated a bit too much to spare her feelings. You’re her client. Her job is yes, to guide you with her expertise, but ultimately to provide you with a product that is to your liking.

    7. RagingADHD*

      You are both taking a very brief professional-services interaction much too personally.

      She is also being highly unprofessional, pushy, and frankly wierd about it.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Now my mean streak is coming out.

      Listen, this lady may have epics amount of experience but it doesn’t mean jack-shit in the end game. She’s one person, just like the rest of us giving you advice. We all have different perspectives.

      I have almost 20 years of HR experience and business in general, she’s not a good business mind and I can see why she now “works for herself”, since she’s not a very good people-person.

      Ef this person. You’re paying her for a service. You’re allowed to not like it. YOU PAID HER, You didn’t waste a damn minute of her time. She’s salty. Leave this person in the dust. You didn’t do a damn thing wrong.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I see two things here.
      One is this is a resume. It’s the sum of our adult life. Having someone review our resume is sort of like walking around in our underwear. You know those unders that we save for working in the yard or painting, etc., yeah the ugly underwear. It’s that level of awkwardness. A friend said they would look at my resume for me. I never heard back. I found myself wondering why I needed to cry over that. Yeah, it’s the walking around in the underwear thing where we just feel like we are putting ourselves waaaay out there. “Hey, this is what I have done with my life so far!”

      The other thing I see here is that this woman offers a very specific service. She does a specific style of resume and that is all. So as a parallel, let’s say you hire a painter to paint your living room. The painter says, “I love green, I wanna paint the entire world green.” You decide that you would like this lovely lavender shade because it was your much loved and late grandmother’s favorite color. So you say, “I like green but I need this lavender over here.” You come home and the entire living room is all green. The painter is upset that you don’t like their lovely green shade. You’re fighting back the tears because “Where did grandma’s lavender get off to? This isn’t what I want.”

      I would have been a bit blindsided by this one, I would not have understood that she was not able (read: not willing) to write a normal resume. Additionally, I would not have thought she would be that fragile that she would have a meltdown because I wanted some changes.

      Her need for your approval is INappropriately VERY high. She won’t make it with her business if she continues to display this level of emotional connection to her work.

      There are some lines of work where customers feel very open and vulnerable. My friend had a shop that sold prom gowns on consignment. The number of crying customers she had was surprisingly HIGH. She had to be sensitive to the fact people were feeling pretty raw and vulnerable because of their size, their looks, their body shape, their very limited budget and so on. As the years went by, she told me that it wasn’t about the gowns. It was about talking people down and getting them to see that they COULD actually find something nice for themselves. My friend went on to tell me that some of them looked so pretty. But some still had a level of disbelief so high that all they did was stare at the mirror, unable to say thanks or to say they were even happy with the dress. They bought the dress so that was my friend’s clue that they might have been happy. Sometimes they would bring other people back to the shop and then my friend realized, “Okay they were actually happy.”

      I can’t see this woman in your setting raising herself up to finding this much insight about her own work. She’s going to have a bumpy ride.

      So what to do. Like everyone says, stop apologizing. You are a nice person, and you don’t owe an apology here. Take the resume and tweak it to suit you. This allows you to salvage some of the money that you spent and it also is a part of moving forward.
      Adjacently, it might help you to read up on giving and receiving feedback. This is what I do, when I notice a pattern in my life where there have been repeated problems in a specific area, I start trying to read about that area. Mostly I read to get outside of my own thinking and see what others are saying/thinking. I think an activity like this is also another step to move forward. At one point, I had a concern about people lying to me at work. So I read and I talked with others whose opinion I respect. It really helped me to reduce my level of concern.

  87. Invernos*

    I’ve just accepted a new position and I could use some advice about when and how to resign my current job. Because I’ll be working for an educational institution I’m required to pass a background check before they’ll formally make me an offer. I’m not worried about passing it (I’m about the most boring person alive) but I’m hesitant about giving notice before I have something in writing.

    The other issue is that I’m currently working as a contractor and haven’t seen my boss in person since the Christmas party in December. What are the norms for resigning when you’re so removed from the rest of the company? I know from looking at past advice Alice has given to not lead with a resignation letter, but I’m not sure how to do it otherwise. Should I call, text, email? What’s considered normal and not rude? I don’t want to burn any bridges, this company has been good to me on everything except raises (they don’t happen, pretty much ever) and I don’t feel the need to write out a statement in fish.

    1. BlueBelle*

      Do you have regular phone calls or meetings with your boss? I would call them to give the news and ask if sending your resignation letter to them is what should be done or if you should send it to anyone else, like HR.
      As far as when, I never give notice until all the requirements are met. I once had a company pull an offer because the background company messed up my background check. They had my name wrong and my social security number wrong. The company I was supposed to go to work for sent me letter and would not return my calls when I tried to tell them that the background company messed up.
      I later found out this background check company was in the middle of a class action lawsuit for the same thing. I was so glad I had I had not given my notice yet. Especially since the company would not talk to me! It was crazy.
      Good luck!

  88. Cafe au Lait*

    My manager handled a situation in a way I highly disliked and I’m not sure if I should even broach the subject with her. For starters, a process I work on has three different managers (including my direct supervisor.) When I email clients all three want to be included. It’s frustrating but there’s not a lot I can do about it.

    Yesterday I made a mistake and my direct supervisor emailed me and cc’d Manger 2 and Manager 3. It was the equivalent of signing a document with purple pen when black or blue are preferred. It’s what I had in front of me and I thought it would read the same as blue on a black-and-white scan. The signature didn’t read as blue, it was blotchy. As it was only one signature on a single document my mistake did not affect workflow or cause anyone to redo piles or work. In fact, it was waiting for me today to correct and re-scan.

    I was livid. I believe that a direct FYI email should be handled between two people. Emailing multiple higher-ups gives the impression that I made a huge mistake and it needs to be tracked. I’d love to address this with my manager but I’m not sure how. I think I’m tongue-tied by the language I need to use.

    1. Katniss Evergreen*

      Sorry that happened – it sounds really obnoxious. I agree with you, but I think ‘livid’ might be a bit misplaced.

      My approach, after taking a beat to let this marinade and be less frustrated with it, would be to ask the direct supervisor how they’d prefer to handle mistakes or mishaps in the future, between you and your “supervisory team.” You could even state a preference in doing something like that, if the tone of the request is even enough – like “I’d prefer notices that don’t necessary require the input of the other supervisors to be handled on a smaller scale, between you and I” or something to that effect.

      In your defense, this kind of arrangement where so many people need to be looped in to what you’re doing is super annoying and usually leads to more mistakes, not fewer.

      1. Cafe au Lait*

        I know that livid sounds like I’m blowing things out of proportion. There’s been other issues of non-support prior to this email on a similar but unrelated work problem. It was the email that broke the camel’s back yesterday.

        I think I’ll wait until next week so that I won’t react emotionally to any emails I may receive in return.

    2. CTT*

      If all three are always cc’d when you send things out, my read on what happened is that Manager 1 wanted Managers 2 and 3 to know that she’d spotted it and was getting you to fix it so you didn’t get duplicate emails from the others. Looking at your response to the other comment it seems like there are other issues with these managers, which I think you should focus on instead.

  89. HannahS*

    If you’re a man, how to do you approach a woman saying sexist things (about your wife) at work?

    My husband was being pressured to drink at happy hour by his supervisor, and he “justified” drinking coffee by saying that he had to do run errands after work. His supervisor (a woman in her 30s) said something to the effect of, “Don’t you have a wife?” As in, “Don’t you have a wife to run errands for you?” Which, ARGH for so many reasons. In the moment, I think he was pretty shocked (and got a condescending, “Wow, you’re sure a good man” from a colleague), and the other supervisor in the meeting hastily changed the subject.

    Obviously, alcohol at work is a whole other issue, but in the moment, what could someone say?

    1. Littorally*

      There’s always the good old “feign confusion” response. Look completely baffled and ask what she means by that. Other options would be something like “Yes, and she asked me to run these errands.”

    2. BlueBelle*

      Gross, I hate “jokes” like that. Like people who applaud a man for “babysitting” his own children. Ugh. I guess a response might be “Yes, she is my wife, not my mother. ” I’ll be watching to see what other goo comebacks people have.

    3. WellRed*

      Ugh, your husband’s coworkers. Wish I had a snappy comeback for him.
      As an aside, it was a happy hour, they were in their homes. Of course he doesn’t have to drink nor should they pressure him, but why the side alcohol at work comment?

      1. HannahS*

        It was on work hours and was mandatory. The supervisor was drinking and pressuring others to drink. It doesn’t actually matter if was on work premises; they were at work in the sense that they were on the clock–it’s not like it was an impromptu get together.

        1. WellRed*

          It’s not cool to pressure someone to drink, but again, an organized happy hour? Lots of companies do this, even on company time. Especially on company time and especially now. That’s normal. The issue is the boss. If this is a new job, I’d be worried more of this obnoxious crap happening.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      Agreed that feigning confusion is a wonderful way to mess with people. Many years ago, I was showing off my wedding album to a co-worker and they arrived at a glorious picture of my (happa) wife and her (Japanese) father. Co-worker asked, “What’s her dad?”
      *blink* “A doctor.”
      CW: “No, where’s he from?”
      Me: “New Mexico.”
      CW” Where are his parents from?”
      Me: “New Mexico.”

      Then again, maybe it’s racism vs sexism, but many years ago, my (male) boss walked through the breakroom to find me (also male) emptying the dishwasher. He quipped, “You’re going to make someone a fine wife some day.” and my reply was, “I’m standing here with knives in my hand and you say this?” Given that the alternate response in my head was, “I’m sure your ex-wife agrees” I think I made the better choice.

        1. Donkey Hotey*

          It was a (pardon the pun) sharp comeback, but in retrospect, I dislike that it came across as taking umbrage on being referred to as a woman, rather than commentary on “women’s work.”

      2. Cendol*

        I love doing this.

        “Where are you from?”
        “Delaware.”
        “No, I mean originally.”
        “Delaware.”
        “But where are your parents from?”
        “Delaware.”

        Also deeply loving your dishwasher response. Nice one.

    6. RagingADHD*

      Okay, look. She didn’t say anything sexist *about you*. That’s escalating this way beyond what really happened.

      If she had made a sexist or disparaging remark directed at you, personally, then yes he should have said something. She didn’t, so he didn’t.

      Drinking alcohol at a work happy hour isn’t actually an issue. It’s very common and normal. Pressuring someone to drink when they don’t want to is obnoxious.

      So the takeaway here is that his supervisor is obnoxious and sexist. There really isn’t anything to be done about it, except be prepared for more of the same and don’t get sucked into playing along.

      There is no magical phrase that will make people realize the error of their ways and quit being obnoxious or sexist. And honestly, a stupid comment like that really isn’t worth making into a hill to die on. There is no scenario where he delivers a scathing comeback, and everyone in the bar gives him a standing ovation while the supervisor slinks away to wherever cartoon villains slink away to.

      Just don’t play along, and they’ll soon learn that he doesn’t.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Play stupid and be all “what does my wife have anything to do with this.”

      Let a shithead dig their own hole after they start. And then mention point blankly if they’re brazen enough to keep going “That’s rather sexist, my wife is not simply to do errands, what an awful thing to say.”

      And stop justifying why he doesn’t want to drink. He doesn’t owe it to them and plays into this kind of nonsense.

      And it can be reported to HR if you want to make a case about sexism in the work place. The same as if it was directed at a woman and they escalated the issue. Men need to report it more often and take a stand, it bothers them too. He doesn’t need to just sit and take a damn thing.

  90. PoppingInForThis*

    Hi all! First-time Friday thread commentor.

    After being out of work for eight months (laid off Jan 1, pre-pandemic) my husband has been offered a position as a Contact Tracer. It’s 6 months-1 year, the pay is OK, he can work remotely from home (he always has), he will certainly keep job searching, and benefits kick in after 2 months. Has anyone had any experience in this new field? FWIW, we live in PA and the program is run by the state Dept. of Health. We’d appreciate any feedback!

    1. nep*

      Congratulations. May it go well. I’ve been thinking about getting a certificate and applying for contract-tracer jobs. I’ll be interested in the responses here.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I was also interested, but my state decided they are only hiring furloughed nurses so that was the end of that.

  91. RMNPgirl*

    I’ve seen so many stories about the move to remote work and how great it is for people and companies planning to stay that way or employees hoping companies will stay that way.

    I haven’t seen much from people like me…who hate the idea of remote work! Luckily, I’m in a healthcare adjacent field that is essential so I’m still working in the office. However, a lot of our organization that could work remote has been and all of our meetings are now virtual. I really miss going to in-person meetings with people, I felt more connected and that ideas and discussions flowed a lot better. I’m single and live alone so the social interaction at work is really important to me mentally.

    Anyone else feeling the same way?

    1. Me*

      Ditto. I’m single and live alone as well aside from when my kid is home on college breaks.
      Work is a large part of my socialization and routine. My at home work space isn’t ideal nor do I have the space or funds to make it so.
      Getting anything out of my boss often requires in person interaction.

      Before this we had the flexibility to work from home when necessary say for the plumber or a sick dog. That’s nice but that’s all I would want.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m both. I love remote work, but I also miss seeing my co-workers in person. I’m hoping to do two days of remote work and three days of in-person work once Covid gets under control (who knows when that will be in the U.S.?).

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        Another vote for both here. I do not miss my commute, or listening to my coworkers complain about things they have the ability to change, and I love working barefoot. I do miss hearing the general chatter in the office (I learn so much about what’s going on just by overhearing things, or seeing who’s in which conference room at any given time), and I miss the ability to just slide over to a coworker’s desk when we need to collaborate on something.

        I’m also hoping to be able to do a 2/3 or 3/2 remote/office split when all this is over.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I went back to work today. We’ve phased people back in over a few weeks, and some people are on a rotation for home/office. My company was very butt-in-seats originally, but during Covid things seem to be going well remotely and they were happy to let us keep working from home. Then some things were not going so well and they wanted us back in the office. Some people have pretty independent jobs and they aren’t coming back, but a lot of us work on project teams and the f2f ideation and things like that are important. Anyway, here we are, and I think that many companies will pull back on remote work some as they can.

    4. Spencer Hastings*

      I am also very happy to be in an “essential” industry right now! I’ve had very bad experiences with working from home in the past…it just feels viscerally wrong to be working in the same place that I do everything else. Going to the office is fine, but if I have to work from home, I dread it. I learned in my student days that if I wanted to get anything done, I had to go to the library or some other place, because trying to do anything more than the very simplest work in my apartment would just lead to a spiral of procrastination and guilt.

    5. allathian*

      I’ll be honest. The only thing I miss from the office is talking to people I don’t work with regularly. I don’t miss my commute, although it’s reasonable, only about 45 minutes door to door. I don’t miss the noise in the office.

      I’ve been to the office for a few hours one day this summer, and that was because there was a software update that wouldn’t install over VPN, you had to be connected to the on-site network for it. The installation went smoothly, but I barely got any work done because I spent most of my time there in the breakroom. I can manage with very little non-family social contact, so those few hours will keep me going for a few months at least. I made sure I didn’t interrupt anyone with chat who was obviously working, that’s why I mainly stuck to the breakroom. I don’t have any productivity issues when I work from home.

      My job is very independent, and although my closest coworker and I collaborate a bit, it’s always in sequence. Most of our output is published online anyway, so it’s not too hard to fix a mistake later if necessary. We just don’t have enough people to collaborate as much as would be ideal to ensure a really good end product, but our clients seem happy with what we can do now, so that’s what we’re stuck with.

  92. Anon a supervisee*

    I kind of need to gripe and only sort of ask for advice. My boss has been phasing-in her return from maternity leave over the course of this month; that mostly hasn’t been a problem – I’ve gotten to work on some really cool things while she’s been out, much of which I’ve enjoyed and received very positive feedback for, and she’s been available much earlier than I expected (or would have asked) on a .25 basis as her baby & parenting sitch has gotten more stable and less sleep-deprived.

    My one problem with this is I’ve been handling one very complicated project which has bordered time and again on violating our guidelines, which technically could have been improved if she had done some more due diligence in March and a handful of things had gone a bit more our way before her leave began. It’s been incredibly stressful for me, despite the fact that it’s not technically only mine to handle it feels that way. Technically she could step in to start handling the rest of this and I could step back – I’d need to read her in a bit more and still be involved but it could happen.

    Does anyone have experience with this? Either with giving back a task or something when it gets too heavy, or pushing back on your boss a bit with stuff like this? I really like working for her and am not looking to get confrontational at all, I’ve just been trying not to drown this summer on this and it’s taking a toll on me.

    1. OtterB*

      Can you put it in the context of a more general conversation about how to manage her transition back? Tell her X and Y have gone really well and you’ve enjoyed working on them, but Z has been more complicated than you expected and you’re concerned about making it a success and would appreciate her becoming more involved with it?

  93. Ned Stark*

    Any tips for trying to manage working from home while also having kids at home? I have kids ages 1, 3 and 4. My wife works for the city as an outside worker at our hydro provider so she is unable to work from home at all (you can’t do repairs and service calls from home). I have been working from home since March, my company supports some essential services so we can’t close. My wife’s hours and mine are the same M-F 9 to 5 though she can be called in on weekends or holidays in rare emergencies when the power goes out or has an issue. Daycares here are closed indefinitely and we can’t afford to hire a babysitter or nanny and even if we could no one would want to do it during a pandemic. My issue is that I’m having a hard time getting all my work done and there are frequent interruptions by my kids. My company has not been flexible (I’m the only one who has kids and doesn’t live alone) and my request to flex my hours or for other accommodations was denied because ‘it would not be fair to my coworkers who would have to pick up my slack’ and ‘we are open during business hours so we work then and not outside them’. The only family we have are our parents and both sets live in retirement communities that are not allowing visitors. I can’t lose my job but at the same time I am the only one who can watch my kids. If anyone is in the same boat and has any solutions to share I’d be grateful to hear from them.

    1. Me*

      I’m going to gently push back on the idea of not being able to afford a babysitter or a nanny. If you would be otherwise be paying for childcare, then that’s the money you use to pay for …childcare. It’s just in a difference format. And there are individuals who may be interested in the job.

      That said without knowing the ages of your kids it hard to offer solutions. One idea is to work some during the hours your wife is home and can help with the kids.

      1. Me*

        My bad I missed where you listed the age. Disregard that portion of my comment. Unfortunately you have children of age where the need hands on care.

        1. valentine*

          And there are individuals who may be interested in the job.
          I figured it was due to the wife’s job. I’m assuming she has contact with a lot of random people and/or places.

          If you’re in the US, do you not qualify for paid family leave? Do you have any friends who work nights who’d be willing to trade childcare or live communally?

          1. Ned Stark*

            You are correct about why it would be difficult to find someone if we could afford that option. Neither of us qualifies for any kind of leave. Unfortunately our friends who don’t have kids and live alone have jobs like my wife that can’t be done from home, and the ones with kids are wary because of my wife’s job (they are all exclusively in a bubble at home). We did ask but no one was available.

          2. Me*

            I understand that but there still may be interested people. Writing off the option entirely without trying when there are literally almost no options available doesn’t seem wise.

            1. Professor X*

              The OP clearly indicated that they cannot afford to hire anyone.

              He also indicated the ages of his children in his post, and that him and his wife work the same hours and he cannot work at night outside of those hours. You missed a lot of what he said.

              You should re-read his post before you reply as it is not helpful to suggest things he has already addressed.

              1. Me*

                Thank you for being condescending. I corrected myself on the ages. Perhaps you need to re-read comments before posting unhelpful critics. So sorry for being human.

                As for childcare, it was not clear at all in that he did not explain his former childcare situation. After he clarified it it was much clearer.

      2. Ned Stark*

        My wife and I both work the same hours and I was denied my request to flex my hours.

        Pre-pandemic our children attended a daycare operated by the city that we qualified for because of my wife’s job, so we weren’t paying for childcare. But by law all daycares are shut down right now so we have nowhere to send them.

        1. Me*

          I’m sorry to say then you simply have no options but continue to try to do your best and let the chips fall where they may. There’s no daycare options when yoru children are of an age to require care, you can’t flex your hours and your job isn’t being accomodating.

          You just have to do your best as things are.

          Also your company sucks. You do have the option to job hunt.

    2. WellRed*

      Well the short answer is, this is simply not doable. You have to hire someone or you or your wife need to reduce hours or gain flexibility (or some combo thereof), but you’ve said none of that is possible. But, who watched your kids pre-pandemic?

      1. Ned Stark*

        We qualified for daycare operated by the city because of my wife’s job so we weren’t paying for it and when the pandemic hit all daycares here were closed by law and haven’t reopened yet.

    3. Reba*

      Are you eligible for the FFCRA expanded Family and medical leave due to childcare being closed? If so you could use it to shorten your work hours, perhaps.

      I’m assuming you know whether your state has arranged childcare for essential workers? Many states are offering emergency childcare, please look for that if you have not already!

      Are you and your spouse looking for new jobs? Just to add another thing to your list!

      Is there another family on your street or among friends that you could do look into doing a nanny share with?

      Ugh, I feel for you. I guess I’m trying to say there are no tips that can fix this. I mean, you have a one year old! They can’t be on their own! Your company sucks.

    4. Colette*

      A lot of this depends on your kids and their schedule.

      Could you hire someone from, say 10-12 every day? That would give you dedicated work time, and many younger kids could nap in the afternoon, which would give you more dedicated time.

      Can you wife ask her employer if they can help her find another alternative, since they provided the one you no longer have access to?

      Can your wife work a later shift? (I know she works the same hours as you, but it seems like her job might have other options available, even if they’re not her first choice.)

      Is your job in demand? Could you find another job?

      1. OtterB*

        I was thinking about hiring someone for limited hours also. It still costs, but it doesn’t cost full-time-professional-nanny rates. In my neighborhood there are a number of students taking the semester or the year off from college, living back with mom and dad, and looking for babysitting jobs. It doesn’t solve the problem but maybe it mitigates it a little?

    5. CatCat*

      Can you push back on the denial of flexing your time?

      On the, “it would not be fair to my coworkers who would have to pick up my slack,” rationale, where is this coming from? What slack? You can clarify, “My goal is to ensure I can get my work done timely and efficiently, which I can do under current circumstances by flexing my time. This would AVOID coworkers picking up slack. Can we talk in more detail about making this work so I address any specific concerns?”

      On the “we are open during business hours so we work then and not outside them” rationale, what’s going on there? Can ALL your work ONLY be done during business hours? If that’s not the case, I’d also see if you can explore that. Something like, “X, Y, and Z can be done effectively outside regular business hours so that’s what I would work on during off hours. For A and B, which I agree require me to be available during business hours, I put together a schedule [whatever hours that looks like] where I can take care of both A and B during regular hours.”

      1. Ned Stark*

        When I originally asked to flex my time they said no because clients won’t want to be contacted after business hours and/or there won’t be anyone there to answer since it is not work time. I also had put forward working less hours as an option (with less pay as I’m hourly) but they said that wouldn’t be fair to everyone else because it would leave more work for them. Before the pandemic we weren’t allowed to work from or outside of hours. Our VPN only opens/closes 15 minutes before and after work so I would also nend more access and that was denied. When my request was denied it was all about fairness to my coworkers and our clients.

        2. WellRed*

          Just in case you weren’t sure, your company is being unreasonable and sucks. If you had to quit the job because they won’t accommodate any of your very reasonable suggestions, your precious coworkers would have more work to do than if they would have just reduced your hours.

        3. allathian*

          I’m sorry, your employer sucks. I would suggest that you start looking for another job with more flexible hours. You’re simply not a good fit for the role, if literally all of your coworkers are single people who don’t have kids. If this system works for everyone else, they’re not going to change just because it doesn’t work for you.

    6. ...*

      What did you do before? Daycare? Could that money be used towards a sitter from somewhere like Care.com?

    7. Imtheone*

      I agree with everyone else that your workplace is wrong that one person cannot get an accommodation. And if there are things that can be done outside of traditional business hours, they should let more people do that. They can have core hours that everyone works, or allow each department to make the decisions about how to provide appropriate coverage during the 9-5 hours.
      As an aside, many customers might be happy to have some opportunity to contact a company outside of traditional business hours.
      I don’t know if this suggestion would help, but I had a friend who encouraged her preschool-aged daughters to sleep late (and stay up late) which gave her a longer block in the morning to work. It might be impractical, but perhaps this idea will suggest some more tweaks you can make at home.
      So sorry you have such an intransigent work place.

  94. Gotta Be Anon*

    Ugh, communicating with my school’s Disabilities Office is always a trial. This time, the director of the office wants to have access to my online class as a student so she can help one of the enrolled students with her assignments. Okay, fine. Except that there are different levels of access to the class, and the director of the office wants to have the highest one, where she would get to see all the grades of everyone enrolled. She claims that she “needs” this so that she can compare the “average” student to the one she’s helping and tell her what level of work she needs to aim for.

    And I mean, no. It’s flatly illegal for her to have that access to the grades of anyone except the student with accommodations. I told her no, she told me it wasn’t an option to say no, I reached out to my department head who supported me, and now the head of the Disabilities Office is mentioning in her e-mails how “disappointed” she and the student with accommodations are that I’m being “unreasonable.” Too frickin’ bad. They can be “disappointed” all they’d like. It’s this woman who’s unreasonable on a regular basis, like two years ago when she told me I would have to purchase a special chair for a student who needed one with my own money and the year before that when she told me a student who had willingly enrolled in an online class “couldn’t do online work” and I would have to find a way to “make it up to him.” Every single time, my department chair has supported me and she’s been told requests like this are ridiculous, but she keeps making them. She cares about the students she’s trying to help, but she fails to engage with other people at anything like a realistic level.

    1. WellRed*

      I’ve come across similar before. Like people who work with the disabled or disavantaged are so tunnel visioned on those they are helping, they fail to see reason in anything else.

      1. Gotta Be Anon*

        Yeah, unfortunately I think that’s the case here. I heard about another problem someone else had with her where a student needed extra time for assignments and the Disabilities director wanted THREE EXTRA MONTHS for the student to do a one-page paper. The other professor couldn’t have granted that since it would have taken more time than the course actually lasted (only 8 weeks). So she talked about giving the student an Incomplete instead, and the director insisted that no, it had to be three months for every single assignment, so somehow the professor would have had to delay grading in the course by more than a year. There are so many other things that can be done, and just because the Disabilities director thought the student needed this or the student asked for three months each time doesn’t mean it’s the only reasonable accommodation.

    2. Amtelope*

      Yeah, that sounds frustrating. Can you offer her alternate accommodations? Like, “Obviously I can’t provide access to individual student grades for privacy reasons, but I can let you know what the average grade on this assignment was after it’s graded?” Or point her to whatever rubrics/grading information you’re providing students (that should be explaining what level of work they need to aim for?)

      1. Gotta Be Anon*

        She’ll have the rubrics anyway because those are available to every student in the course. But she claimed that “average” grading information- like, after each assignment I usually do a breakdown where I tell people what some of the common errors were (so say, citation problems, or unclear theses, or lack of organization in a certain set of papers)- wouldn’t help because “it’s impersonal.” She wanted the actual comments, as well as grades, on student papers. No.

        The director will be enrolled in the course as a student and be able to see all assignments, rubrics, discussion board postings, etc., There’s no need for her to see the grades or comments.

  95. ThePear8*

    Happy Friday everyone! Last week I posted a question regarding being between a potential job offer or my summer internship being extended for me to work part-time during the fall semester. I’m happy to say I have an update, and a couple of follow-up questions.
    The update: I have accepted a continuation offer to keep working at my internship part-time! I was also offered the other job, but I will most likely have to decline – they’ll be contacting me next week (their offices are closed this week as they finish their summer programs).

    So now that I’m continuing my internship, the questions:
    1. This is regards to what’s acceptable on a work computer. I got permission from my original manager to use some snippets of the original project I worked on in my portfolio, which is on my personal website (for context, what I mean by “original project”, it was cancelled and I moved teams halfway through the internship). Since the project files are on my work computer, would it be okay to be updating my personal website on the work computer I was issued, outside of regular work hours of course?

    2. Bigger question, regarding asking for time off from an internship. Like many, I have been going absolutely crazy from quarantine. I’ve been stuck in my house all summer and getting groceries is now the most exciting thing ever since it means I at least get out for a bit, not to mention just dealing with a lot of personal issues and I could really use a break for my own sanity. Even just a change of surroundings would be nice, so I’ve been thinking about the possibility of say, driving out to visit my dad, who’s living in another state, for a week or two. Since my classes are all online, I wouldn’t need to worry about missing school. However, the work computer I’ve been issued is not the standard intern laptop – it’s a high-end desktop tower, since the original project I was on required being able to run some pretty heavy-duty software. The computer is huge, (and extremely nice, so I want to take good care of it), and it’s not practical to take it with me, so even though I’m working remotely, I’d probably need the time off. I feel like as an intern, there’s less standing to ask for so long off from work since an internship is only for so many weeks, and it’s not like I get any paid time off – but since I’ve been with this company full-time for 12 weeks all summer and just got my internship extended part-time through December, would it be okay to see if I can take a break for a bit? And if so, how should I raise that with my manager?

    1. Colette*

      For #1, I’d say it’s fine to update your personal website on your work computer (but you can ask your manager to confirm it’s OK where you work, if you want.)

      For #2, some time off is OK; a week or two might be too much. But that depends on the specifics; if taking a week off means missing 2 days of work, that’s probably fine. If you’re part time indefinitely, it’s also probably fine; if you’re part time until the end of October, it might be too much. Ask your manager, it’s a reasonable question.

  96. yams*

    How do you guys decide it’s time to move on from a company? Right now I love my job, it’s fun, it gives me freedom and I get to work in interesting projects while honing good marketable skills. However, the pay and benefits suck. I could make at least 20-30% more by taking on a more junior position in a different company but I know the work would make me miserable (I hate being stuck in the office all day). There is next-to-no probability for a raise, very little room for professional advancement (my boss is the commercial director…). I’ve been taking my sweet time to find a new position so I can job search in peace, but I wonder if I’m being too picky because I’m in a very comfortable job.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It sounds to me as if you’re being just the right level of picky. While having sucky pay and benefits is… sucky, having a job you love that gives you freedom and interesting projects should not be underestimated.

      You’re actually, in some ways, in the best job searching position. People who are desperate to leave a toxic workplace are desperate, and so they may take something that’s equally toxic (but looks promising) or still toxic but slightly less toxic. You’re comfortable, so you can afford to be picky. Leave for the right position.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You should love being able to be picky, this is FANTASTIC to be in that spot.

      Do not opt for miserable but more-money. I will tell you that very few people can sustain that life. It’s important that you at least are comfortable somewhere, maybe it’s not the most stimulating but it’s better than feeling like you’re crushing rocks for a living.

      I have known people who are very happy with very bland and boring work, they are blessed. My dad is one of those folks! He didn’t want to do anything other than his standard labor job “too much pressure and stress, that would be miserable! I like having very standard tasks to just keep me busy for 8 hours and pay me for it.” I would die. I couldn’t do medical records, I couldn’t do AP processing because of that! Even though both pay decently [I make more now so I wouldn’t have to worry about it in that aspect thank God for that.]

      So be picky, stay comfortable!

  97. Anonymoose For This*

    I’m handing in my notice today. To take a sabbatical (I’m a lawyer) and to start a family. I’ve been seriously burnt out for the past year and been basically crying every day before, during, and after work for the past few months (fortunately remote working has allowed me to do that). I had been planning to just quietly job search but a week ago my husband just outright told me “this is affecting your mental health a lot. You need a break from this.” I’m glad that I have the economic privilege to do so.

    I feel apprehensive, in part because I’m a type A person and when I graduated from law school I never thought I would take time off to start a family. Even though I know female attorneys who have done this. I’m looking forward to my break, but my mind has been work oriented for so long. So any tips?

    1. Reba*

      Good for you! I hope you enjoy the time, despite [2020].

      I would say, it can take a loooong time to adjust your mindset from being achievement-oriented (from school grades and competitions to the bar to law practice and billables). So go easy on yourself if you don’t find that you immediately feel better and reach enlightenment or whatever.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Projects.

      Get some personal or community projects going that you care about (but would not stress you out if they aren’t done before you have a baby).

      You need a positive place to put that energy and goal-direction. It has to go somewhere, and if you aren’t intentional with it, you could wind up doomscrolling twitter or going down the rabbit hole of obsessive TTC.

      “Starting a family” is a head-on confrontation with all the practical and existential things in life that we can’t control. It is the antithesis of Type-A life, and you need to deliberately point those particular superpowers away from your marriage and your reproductive tract.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, this. And for all that’s holy, Type A folks please don’t make the mistake of making your child your next project… Better not to reproduce if that’s a serious risk.

  98. Egg and Cheese*

    I have a question about recruiters and how much I should tell them while I job search.

    I’ve been collecting unemployment while job searching and speaking with a few recruiters. Last week, I accepted a part time position with a title and responsibilities that will definitely enhance my resume. The commute and pay are both terrible, though! I plan to continue my search and can collect UE benefits at the same time, but I’m hoping I find something else soon because I may not be able to afford to keep a job with so few hours. Should I be telling my recruiter that I’m working part time and send an updated copy of my resume? There are versions of my role that can be done full time and I’m looking for a position with less sporadic shifts. I’m hoping that this more advanced position will open doors for me as I keep looking. How should I communicate this to my recruiter in the best way and proceed with my search in general?

    1. BlueBelle*

      Yes, update your resume and let recruiters know that since it is only a part time position you are looking for a full time role. No one will fault your for staying some place a short time when it is only part time. Good luck!

  99. BusyBee*

    Any product managers here? I was recently moved from a brand role to a product manager role, and I’m the first product manager our company has ever had (though I do find that our brand managers serve a similar role to product managers in other companies). I’ve been doing the new role for about 6 weeks: I first took over the product right after the whole original team quit and things were hectic. Now that it’s less of a firestorm and more about ongoing support, with emphasis on financial success and P&L ownership, I was wondering if there were any resources or skills that others in the field would recommend. I’m basically winging it, and would love to educate myself a little more on what it actually means to be a product manager.

      1. BusyBee*

        Tech product within a B2B food-service company. The tech part is brand new to the company, and while I come from a digital marketing background, a lot of the nitty-gritty is new to me as well!

    3. jleebeane*

      I’m very new to Product Management and just read “Inspired – How to Create Tech Products Customers Love” by Marty Cagan. I’m working on an internal software project that our employees are required to use, so I didn’t find everything in the book helpful, but I thought it provided an interesting framework to think about product management that wasn’t completely scrum/agile focused.

  100. tangerineRose*

    Need advice on how to set up lighting while working from home. Seems like having my back to a window is a problem (I guess the light reflects off the computer screen?)

    1. Reba*

      Yes, and if you do video calling it will make a halo and put your face in shadow. A solar shade, cell blinds or simply some sheer curtains could help soften the light.

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Does the room you are working from have a closet/attached bath/other room with lighting?

      We put my husband’s laptop on the same wall as our study’s attached bath, and then opened the door and turned on the light. This way the light is coming from behind the laptop, not behind his head like it would be if he used the overhead light.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m set up with a half-wall of windows behind me, basically, but because the light doesn’t shine directly in the windows, it doesn’t cause any glare. There’s big full evergreen arborvitae bush-tree-things that are like 30 feet tall, about ten feet back from the windows, so by the time the sun is in a direction where it would normally shine in these windows, the arborvitae block it directly and I just get lots of lovely diffuse indirect sunlight. So it sort of depends on other factors, whether having your back to a window would be a problem. (At least as far as computer screen glare goes.)

  101. NorseMermaid*

    I’m currently job searching and I’m thinking about my questions in the interview.
    Of course I’ve read Allison’s excellent question suggestions before but now I want to add something about how the company has handled the pandemic.
    Does anyone have suggestions for best wording for this? Answers to look out for (good and bad)?
    Thanks all!

  102. curiousLemur*

    Businesses are recommended to use Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, etc. So it sounds like most people just follow them on one of these kinds of things because otherwise using lots of different social media platforms seem like spamming. What other social media do you recommend?

  103. OyHiOh*

    Curly hair and generational perception of professional norms, job related good news, and GUMPTION

    First, the actual question. Words to use to reassure worried family that one’s hair is *fine* for the specific environment I’m going into, and does not require a makeover before returning to work?

    I have thick “messy” curly hair – basically a mix of S waves and pencil width loose coils – and beginning to grey, which so far mostly serves to highlight my curls rather than change the texture. I’ve had an asymmetrical haircut for about four years now. The long part of my hair just brushes my shoulder and the rest is kept about an inch long. My dad is terribly worried this cut is NOT PROFESSIONAL. More precisely, he described it as looking like I just rolled out of bed (no, just no . . . .). I feel like this is a know your local culture/office issue and the office I’m about to go into is quite casual and non conformist as a matter of principle. My sense is that my hair nicely walks the line between my new job (like finding kinda quirky llama groomers and helping them access the resources needed to meet quirks and niches within llama grooming) and my theater/artist/writer 2nd life but dad heard an NPR piece decades ago in which a stylist apparently asserted “give me control over a woman’s hair for 10 days and I can change her life” (YUCK) and is chronically concerned that my unrepentant non conformist mane is not changing my life. Is there anything at all a person can say/do, or do I accept there’s nothing I can do, continue to decline offers to makeover my hair and go be glorious at my new office?

    I got a job! After a year of actively searching, I was offered a job this week and have accepted. I’m early 40s, have had only a couple part time jobs in the past decade (raising children), and in the current market, worried considerably about being hire-able at all. Y’all, I was applying for entry level call center work and hotel front desk jobs at one point this summer but in the end I got the kind of job I wanted. I’m going into a role that is a mix of administrative and development duties and the development side is something I’ve been wanting to learn/gain experience in for a few years so this is really good opportunity to do all those things.

    GUMPTION alert. I’ve been living with my parents this summer for COVID reasons, and I’ve been treated to much job search advice from my dad in the process. He believes is showing persistence and willingness to not give up and has asked worried questions at intervals about if I should call back that person or bother that other person by email. He’s regaled me multiple times about the last time he job searched (has owned/operated a business since the early 90s so this is going back to mid *eighties*) and how he got that job because he was just so persistent compared to the person who had been hand picked for the position (more likely, hand pick wanted much more than the part time $7,000/yr salery and they went with the desperate/cheap option). He also has a weird perception of what can be asked in interviews and has worried about phone/video interviews, not having a local brick/morter bank, if they can ask about life insurance, and has counseled me not to say anything about being a widow (“say your husband left you suddenly. . . ” I mean, it’s not *wrong* but it treats loss as weirdly shameful). The last one did come up under the heading of “you know this is a part time job, right? Are you hoping for full time – ” ) and because I have a widow’s benefit, I briefly (as in 2 or 3 short sentences) explained that no, I don’t need full time hours and I’m looking for an opportunity to build work experience and increase my skills and knowledge. That’s pretty much exactly what new boss wants so it should be a good fit.

    1. irene adler*

      Pretty sure you got hired for your skills, knowledge, ability and not your hair.
      You’ll be fine- as you are. Keep saying that to any offers to change you.
      What you wrote here should also work: “I’m looking for an opportunity to build work experience and increase my skills and knowledge. That’s pretty much exactly what new boss wants so it should be a good fit.”

      When they interviewed you, they saw you -right? Hair and all?
      Did they give you any guidance re: dress code, or hair, nails restrictions? Is there something in the employee manual? Follow these.
      Sounds like folks are trying-albeit in a ham-fisted manner- to support your success. They want nothing to derail you. But they aren’t ‘clued in’ as to what the work norms are.

      1. OyHiOh*

        I was hired blind – two interviews, reference check, work samples (electronically searchable – one of my references mentioned my writing product and interviewer went and read those).

        In general, I am not self conscious about my hair but dads have a way of getting under daughters skin!

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m going to speak to the curls part because…that’s what I know. Except I have always asked for paperwork on what their benefits package is (for a brief overview in interview and more indepth, show me the numbers at offer stage), which generally covers the life insurance aspect.

      I have very similarly textured hair to you. It’s quite long (like bra band length). I almost never wear it up/back/confined. I haven’t straightened it in years. Two women in my office (MUCH higher on the org chart than I) have incredibly curly hair, and while their hair is shorter, I’ve never seen their hair straight. The asymmetrical style is nothing off-putting; yet another woman I know of a higher rank rocks asymmetrical hair, just hers happens to be naturally straight and mostly grey.

      Times have changed since the ’10s. Pandemic times especially have more openly allowed people to wear their natural texture/color/whatever. Don’t let the stodge hamper what YOU want to do.

    3. BlueBelle*

      Congratulations!
      I am very sorry for your loss, and there is no shame or anything negative from telling people you are a widow. Your father is being so weird about that. I can’t imagine what would make him think that telling someone your “my husband left me suddenly” is any better or less awkward than telling someone you are a widow.
      He is so painfully out of touch is almost laughable, although I am sure it is eye rolling annoying to you! LOL.
      I have no answer about how to make them stop commenting on your hair, other than – “seriously, give it a rest.” I am full on embracing my crazy covid hair- my roots are growing out, I haven’t had a hair cut since Febraury. The last time any of my colleagues saw me in person I had a pixie cut that I straightened every day. Now, they are seeing me (on webcam) with chin length unruly curls.

      Good luck in your new job!

    4. RagingADHD*

      The answer to all unwanted/inappropriate, but well-intentioned parental advice is,

      “Thanks, Dad, I love you, too. I’ve got this.”

      Do not argue the merits of the advice. Do not demand they butt out. Both of those things will make them try harder to help you, because you obviously don’t understand how much they care. And it makes you sound and feel like a surly teenager instead of a grown woman with a family of her own.

      They need reassurance that you love them and are okay. Stick to that.

      1. Reba*

        I like this. I also think a firm but affectionate, “Dad. I’m in my forties. Your last chance to raise me was 25 years ago.” wouldn’t be amiss.

        I can’t think of a polite or loving response to the widow thing.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t listen to your father. He’s a sweet soul and I am sure he is a fine business man [I have worked for A LOT of eccentric and just simply socially stunted folks similar to him, I get along fine with them but they are NOT the norm as far as standard job searching advice.]

      Your hair most likely is fine! It sounds fine to me, it sounds styled and simply curly. I have heard lots of “advice” about curls over the years, I heard that “men hate curly hair” too years ago when I was dating LMFAO @ that nonsense.

      I have had people lust out loud for curly hair much more than demonize it though. As long as it’s not scraggly, looks unwashed [and I am fully aware some people just have wiry hair that looks unwashed and it’s very much washed] or otherwise makes you look unkempt, if you have some Merida style curls, you’re going to be fine as long as you contain it in some fashion.

      Who is actively harmed by hair discrimination tend to be BIPOC folks who have different textures and different styles that are not “mainstream” to the white-washed bigotry of the world around us. These “get rid of your natural curls and straighten your hair out” people are subscribing to that nonsense. Whereas average people, who are not that invested do not care nearly as much as we try to give the bigots out there more power than they already have as being the perceived majority.

      But I’m a neanderthal who wore a patterned blouse under my suit jacket [not just a basic color!!] and have my nails in rainbow colors. I also have wild hair that I do tame because I don’t like that it tends to make my neck sweat ;) And again, I work with eccentric people all the time, it’s never harmed me. I haven’t had to show “gumption” either, like your dear pops is pushing you towards!

      You’re fine. Parents are funny. You’re fine. The snobs can’t get us, they don’t make the actual rules, they live in their own ivory towers and we don’t want any.

    6. Morning reader*

      Congrats on landing a job! Apparently your hair was not a factor.

      Re Dad advice: given that you’re closely related, do you have the same hair as he does? I suggest turning the conversation back on him. Was he ever held back by his hair? Did he struggle with it especially back in the days men wore it longer? Does he remember the greasy kid stuff? What has he tried? Mousse? Bear grease? Shaving his head? Might be an interesting convo. Maybe his anxiety is about the hair he gave you.

      Another suggestion perhaps for Halloween. Get yourself a nice blonde white girl wig and dress up as 20th century office girl. Pair with a padded shoulder blazer, pantyhose, and a polyester blouse with a floofy tie. Add makeup to taste. Then tell your dad you’ve got a job interview… exit humming “9 to 5”

      1. OyHiOh*

        Hair comes from my mom’s side of the family. But you know, it shouldn’t really be a surprise to him that I still have ridiculous hair. It’s always been thick, curly and “messy” as defined by the WASP values he was raised with and I know it’s his issues not mine but geez. Worried anxious parent who knows exactly which buttons to push!

    7. Esmeralda*

      “Dad, I appreciate your concern, but if they thought my hair style was unprofessional, they would not have hired me.”
      “Dad, I know you love me, but this is starting to feel…kinda insulting? Could you please stop commenting on my hair?”
      “Dad. I love you, but I am not going to listen to you criticize how I look.”
      “Dad. Stop. I’m feeling angry and insulted, so I’m going for a walk.”

      BTW, your hairstyle sounds great!

    8. What the What*

      I am still trying to wrap my head around it being preferable to tell people your husband left you suddenly rather than just say he passed away.

      Can you imagine, in situations where this comes up? “What is your marital status?” “MY HUSBAND LEFT ME SUDDENLY!!!” Umm… ok.

  104. Aloe vera*

    How do you maintain positive relationships with coworkers when you’re not their manager but part of your job is keeping them on track and reviewing (some of) their work?

    I’m still pretty new to the professional world (~3 years experience), and I’m currently in a job where I’ve taken on a number of project management-type tasks: think of things like reminding coworkers of deadlines, notifying them of late/incomplete work, and doing quality checks on their work. The catch is that I’m not a manager or a project manager and have no authority over my coworker’s work. I’m also less experienced than most of them and technically their equal in the org. chart.

    This has mostly been fine, but sometimes it negatively colors my relationships with some of my coworkers. I’m often the bearer of bad news (you made this mistake, you missed this deadline) and the one notifying/reminding them of tasks or deadlines. Sometimes, too, when I reach out to coworkers to get clarification or ask a question, they can seem anxious or defensive in response even though I thought was being friendly. It probably doesn’t help that we’re entirely remote, and so 95% of my communication with them is over email (my writing style is very logical/to the point over email).

    Anyway, the point is, I’m worried that my coworkers see me as a nag or a sign of bad news, and may feel anxious or resentful toward me. How do I prevent that?

    1. BlueBelle*

      This is called managing without authority. I just held 3 webinars at my company about this very thing- almost 200 people attended those 3 webinars. The largest turn out we have ever had for a non-mandatory training. The point of telling you that is this is such a common issue and situation you are in. Search “managing without authority” and “leading without authority” there are a ton of articles and hints and tips out there.
      The main thing is building relationships, getting people’s buy in on the project/deadline/task, and understanding that it may not be the priority or only priority and acknowledging that. In that role, it is also really important to help people solve problems. I like to ask people- “do you see any obstacles that can prevent this from happening?” I like to help them solve that roadblock.

    2. Gumby*

      In my past career as a QA engineer a large part of the job was telling people “you made a mistake.” The biggest thing that helps is having a good relationship with the team members to start with. It doesn’t require any boundary-crashing behaviors, but go in believing that they are competent at their jobs and that mistakes are a normal and expected part of them doing their jobs (or at least it is for developers). Your internal attitude makes a difference and people can tell even if you think you are hiding it.

      Secondly, the way you phrase things matters. You are helpfully alerting them to something that needs to be fixed not blaming them for incompetence. “Hey, you might have noticed already, but there’s a typo on page 3” instead of “I don’t know if you can’t spell or don’t care about details, but you need to fix the typo on page 3.” This is general tactfulness but, since you know it could be grating otherwise, maybe up that with additional softening language. Also, you can use humor to create a “we’re all in this together” atmosphere on occasion. It might take training yourself to be less to the point over email, especially now since it is the main avenue of communication.

      For deadlines, I find that pointing to the external drivers of the schedule sometimes helps. Then it is not that *I* am pushy but that the situation is forcing the issue. Again, softening language like, “I know you are busy but the XYZ agency requires the teapots production report next week. Could you please take an hour sometime today or tomorrow to finish part IIV so that it can be integrated with everything else? Thanks!”

    3. Alianora*

      You say you’ve taken on a number of project management tasks. Is that something you’ve been asked to do in your official capacity, or is it more of an unofficial role you fell into? If the latter, maybe it would be worth talking to your manager and asking if you can pull back on giving your coworker negative feedback? It’s a difficult position to be in with your peers.

      I’m similar to you in my email style. It’s been pretty helpful to start including exclamation marks and smiley faces (YMMV depending on your workplace), and also including a line or two of pleasantries. Even if the whole email is just, “Good morning! I was hoping to follow up on X – could you let me know the status?” that goes over a whole lot better with my more people-oriented coworkers than, “Please update me on the status of X.”

      It can also be helpful to explicitly describe what the purpose of your email is so that your coworkers are less likely to assume your clarifying questions are chastisements. You can write, “Hi Alianora, I have a clarifying question. In Y situation, are we supposed to do Z or A?” And then when you’re giving feedback, be clear about that too: “Hi Alianora, I reviewed the ninja report and have some feedback for you. B and C look good. There were some typos in D and I was a bit confused by E – could you rewrite it to explain F and G?”

      And I’m curious, do you ever have the opportunity for small talk with your coworkers? Because that can go a long way as well toward making people feel warmer toward you.

    4. Moclips Mug*

      I was in just this situation for 2 years — technically peers with the technical team, but supposedly a “project manager.” Of course, I had no budget, timeframes, ability to approve / deny vacations, ability to influence their reviews, ability to grant perks, or anything that could actually get the technical staff to do the work! We were all government, so there was no real ability to fire them or give them bonuses. I had no carrot and no stick.

      Anyway, after awhile of this, management decided I must be the problem because I was not getting the technical staff to do the work the way management wanted. They wanted to put me on a PIP. So I bowed out of that role. All of which is to say — beware of this situation. It could be fine, but it could be an impossible situation for you to succeed in.

  105. Jules the First*

    So I have a newish team member, Susan, who was hired knowing she has less than a year’s experience in the role. During her probation period, she did great – she was focused, engaged, hard-working and seemed to be taking feedback well. Fast forward two months and Susan is struggling. The work she does is still adequate, but she’s painfully slow and doesn’t ask questions in a timely fashion (instead trying to exhaust every possible avenue to answer what would otherwise be a 30s update) or asks questions of the wrong person (I’m the department head and she’ll ask me which paintbrush to use instead of asking the person supervising this particular teapot), or doesn’t give context to enable the question to be answered (ie, will ask which paintbrush but not specify whether she’s painting a teapot lid or the Humber bridge). She then extrapolates that answer to every vaguely similar task (so if you tell her to use a number 3 paintbrush, she will attempt to paint her next task with the same brush, even though task one was a teapot lid and task two was a bridge). She seems to take feedback well in the moment, but nothing changes. I’m struggling to connect with her and get her to actually open up about the job and what she needs from us in order to thrive…and I firmly believe she can thrive in this job, but frankly if nothing changes I’ll have to let her go because her performance now is only acceptable if she’s also showing growth. Any suggestions?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Set up a meeting with her and lay it all out there like you did here.

      Tell her that you’re invested in her, that you see that she’s struggling in these areas you’ve noticed and that you want to come up with a plan. Let her know her job is possibly on the line as well if things don’t change.

      You have to be compassionate and to do that, you have to be straight forward to get the point across to her. She has to learn the “details” now that she’s been on board for a few months

      Sometimes people thrive in certain areas and then struggle in others. These seem like “details” that she’s lacking. It could be a confidence issue as well. She may ask the wrong people because she’s asking who she’s most comfortable with, which is not part of being part of the team in the big picture of the job.

      Have you been answering her questions or routing her to the right person when she asks you something that someone else is better equip to handle? It could be that she doesn’t really know John to ask him about the paint brushes. Or it could be that it’s not clear to her that she doesn’t know the organizational chart! People can be very quiet about not knowing who’s who, especially after you know you’ve been there a bit and you seriously don’t know anyone well or what they even do.

      Do you have a contacts list and help her know who’s who, who does what. That could be a detail she’s scared to say anything about because it makes a lot of people feel “bad” or “dumb” if they have to say “who handles this again?” or “I’m sorry, I don’t actually know who is in charge of this project, which one is John?” Even though they sit next to John, they may have thought that was Pete, you know?

  106. Anon-this-time*

    First week back in the office.

    And this time I’m carrying around a portable recorder.

    Yes, it’s that kind of workplace… but fortunately it’s a one-party consent state, so I will be exercising one of the few rights I have here.

    1. Dream Jobbed*

      Been there. It sucks. But another year at my last place and I probably would have had enough recorded for a sex discrimination case. Fortunately, I was able to move to my dream location and a great job, but the experience I had at the old place colors everything that happens in the new place which sucks. Document everything, makes notes on every recording, and back them up to a save place!

      I hope it gets better or you find a better situation.

  107. Me*

    I have in in person team building problem solving whatever meeting on Monday. The point is to identify problems and resolve them so we can be a better department.

    Here’s the issue – almost all of our problems are a direct results of one managers behavior. Now we are supposed to do this exercise without casting blame.

    I’m at a loss. THeres’ no way to not cast blame when a problem is oh say John interrupts and talks over people during meetings.

    Anyone have tips to address problems cause by a specific person without blaming them? Or should I just chalk this up to being a probable waste of time?

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      “It can be hard to get a word in edgewise during meetings. Can we have a clear rule that people shouldn’t talk over one another or interrupt?”

      Passive voice is your friend!

      1. Me*

        Ugh but I can’t bring myself to do it. He’s not the type of person who thinks he is ever the problem so all passive voice will do is go right over his head.

        He’s also sexist and condescending. Not things that I’m willing to make seem like other people are doing when they are not.

        1. irene adler*

          IF these things occur during meetings, the chair of said meeting needs to act. Chair needs to stop John after he’s had his say, and then encourage other attendees to have their say. If John should interrupt, Chair needs to stop him and allow the speaker to continue. Repeat as needed. Issue warning if this gets too frequent.

          If offending statements (sexist/condescending) are made, Chair needs to stop that right then and there with a warning that this kind of talk is not tolerated. He will be ejected if it happens again. Then ask John to leave if he violates this warning. If John doesn’t leave, Chair must end the meeting and folks will need to reconvene at a later time.

          The Chair must be willing to do this.

          The agenda should also include time limits. The Chair can use these time limits to end John’s talking. Just say ‘we’re out of time on that topic. Let’s move on.”

          1. Me*

            This is government our meetings are much less formal. There’s no chair, rarely an agenda and often the culprit is the person leading the meeting.

            His boss is aware of his behavior but is often not in the meetings and not directly privy to any of the other behavior.

            Hence we are having this workshop to fix all our problems instead of the person who is the problem being addressed.

            1. Anon-this-time*

              This is why speakers in the House of Representatives have “time” and can’t extend it unless someone yields their time to them.

              It’s also reason for the hokey “talking stick.”

              If the person talks over people for a particular reason, that could be something to discuss — like “stop talking when you hear yourself repeat yourself,” or “don’t repeat what someone else has said,” or “stay on topic, please.”

              I have been criticized for this, and it’s cultural for me — I come from the East Coast and now work in the Midwest. People here will go on and on and on without the discipline to stop repeating themselves, or they’ll talk about a whole list of things without pausing for others to comment on each thing. I bite my tongue as much as I can, but they drive me nuts. We’ll start the meeting with “We have to keep this brief because I have to leave at [time] and then there’s a conversation about taking the kid to summer camp, and how many years kid has been going to it, and do they help with packing…. blah blah blah” I bite my tongue until I can’t stand it anymore, and then I have the additional challenge of tamping down my impatience and feeling like my time has been wasted and we won’t get anything done. I’m trying to reframe “productivity” as “stuff gets discussed, everyone feels good, and it doesn’t matter if a decision is made or an action taken. And anyway, deadlines are fluid (except when they’re not, and you’re just supposed to know which are which).”

              1. irene adler*

                Oh yes-good one!- the “talking stick”. It may seem hokey but hey, anything to put an end to folks who don’t do meetings properly.

                I cannot deal with those who go on and on. My boss will do that. So I have to excuse myself and get started on whatever plans he’s laid out three or four times already.
                Makes me want to scream “Can’t you just edit yourself?”

            2. irene adler*

              If the meetings are informal, why not walk out -in unison-when John “misbehaves”?
              That could be something others could plan ahead to do.

              It is no fun for him when the audience isn’t there.

    2. BlueBelle*

      I hate that. Let’s all action plan instead of dealing with the problem. You can say things very generically like “I have noticed that in meetings people are sometimes interrupted and not allowed to finish their thought/comment/observation. Can we come up with a way to handle that in the moment, to allow people to feel heard?”
      Good luck!

      1. Me*

        Exactly my thought. Tell him to knock it off instead of acting like we all just don’t get along.

        Okay I like the part about coming up with a way to handle it in the moment to allow people to be heard. That way when he gets called out about it later when he does it he will know it’s him and that the behavior was discussed as being unreasonable.

  108. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    What are reasonable approaches to allergen mitigation in the workplace when the workplace is my home, the allergens are my cats (well, their dander), and the employee is our live-out nanny? I’m aware that an allergy is a disability and protected by the ADA, so we’re trying to make accommodations as much as possible. So far we’re at weekly professional house cleaning, keeping the cats out of our child’s room, providing N95 masks, and asking our nanny to take the child out of the house as much as possible (a challenge when our local playground isn’t very safe, museums and libraries aren’t open, we don’t have a car and our nanny is avoiding public transit… they’re taking a lot of neighborhood walks). We also provide paid sick days and have encouraged our nanny to use them for seeing doctors if she needs to. (Unfortunately we can’t afford to also provide health insurance, but I think she’s on her parents’ insurance.) Is there anything else we can/should be doing, or anything we shouldn’t be doing? I did say she couldn’t take medication that makes her drowsy on a day when she was taking our kid outside, for safety reasons, but if she needs to Benadryl up, they can stay home in our child’s cat-free room.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Do be aware that the ADA only kicks in at 15+ employees and doesn’t apply here. (And the reason for that is that very small employers often don’t have the options that would enable them to comply the way larger ones do.) That’s not to say you shouldn’t try to make it work anyway if you can, but be aware that you don’t need to adhere to the ADA’s requirements specifically.

    2. Amtelope*

      I mean, she knew you had a cat when you hired her, right? This seems different from the “pets in the office” question — working in someone’s home means being willing to work around whatever pets they have. I think you are being as accommodating as you can, and that if you wouldn’t normally do weekly professional house cleanings, it’s not necessary for you to shoulder that expense. If a household with cats isn’t a good fit for this nanny, that’s ultimately up to her to decide.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        She knew we had three cats, and said her allergy wasn’t too bad. But it seems to be flaring up with increased exposure (which is concerning for her health, and to be quite honest, in her shoes I’d be looking for other work).

        We already had weekly cleanings set up so that’s not an issue.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Off the top of my head, a couple things you might consider that would (I think) be not too onerous: Make sure the filters in your HVAC system are specifically allergen/pet dander filters and replaced regularly. You might also consider HEPA filtered air purifiers for the areas of your house she’s most likely to end up in, outside of your child’s room?

      I don’t know how helpful either of those would actually BE, but they can’t hurt. Have you asked the nanny if she has any further suggestions that would be beneficial to her that you could take under consideration?

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Our house doesn’t have central air, but this is a good reminder to clean out our window air conditioners and fans.

        She’s never had the allergy flare up this badly before, so she doesn’t have suggestions beyond what we’re already doing.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Gotcha. Other things that occur to me, again probably with varying levels of viability:
          -You can’t afford to give her health insurance, which is reasonable, and she has it anyway you think. *If* she wants to consider allergy shots or similar targeted medical treatment, would you be willing to contribute to any out of pocket costs for those as sort of a halfway measure in lieu of health insurance? (It sounds like you were at least willing to consider providing health insurance for your nanny, and kudos for that!)
          -Consult with your vet and see if they have any suggestions to handle it on the cats’ end – I feel like I’ve heard about food additives that at least purport to reduce dander, though I have no idea how reliable that would be. There’s also a possibility that they’ll be familiar with other options for handling cat allergies that a doc who doesn’t regularly deal with cats might not be familiar with.
          -I certainly wouldn’t suggest bathing your cats regularly (ouch), but combing them regularly, if you don’t already and if they’ll tolerate it, might help keep the loose bits down. (I know we pretty much never comb our short-haired cats, but we don’t have allergic folks to worry about.)
          -Aside from the weekly house-cleaning you’re already doing – consider a Roomba or similar to run in areas of the house she’s likely to be in every night and make sure stray cat particles are picked up in between big cleanings? And yes, clean out the fans and air circulators regularly for sure.

          Is she having more breathing problems or contact/skin problems, when her allergies kick up? That might make a difference too, as to what solutions might be more effective. I’m assuming the former, but you know what they say about assumptions. :)

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      You might also look at the AC filters. But Amtelope and Alison bring up very valid points.

    5. YouwantmetodoWHAT?! *

      If her allergy to cats are this bad,why did she take the job? And while you should have said that you had a household with pets, it’s absolutely her responsibility to manage herself and she should have asked.
      Honestly, if it’s so bad that she has to stay in one room, I’m surprised that she didn’t ask (and how does that work when she needs to feed child or go to the bathroom? Or walk through the house going in or out. Or. Or).
      You may need to find another nanny.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        I’m always very clear in our job ads about having three cats and the apartment being a walk-up. She thought it would be fine; it turns out it’s not.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I suspect that she thought she’d be okay because she can take a pill and visit someone with a cat for a few hours. But all day, every day, builds up the exposure until it’s too much (I have a moderate cat allergy that acts like this – I can visit cats, but can’t live with them). Three cats is a lot more dander than one too.

          I don’t really see this working long term. Reasonably, you can vacuum and dust regularly, make sure the filters on the furnace/AC etc are clean, get some HEPA filters, and brush and bathe your cat regularly. Allergy shots might help her with the allergy, but that’s the long game – it can take a couple of years to really improve things, and I don’t think you have the time to wait. I suspect that with three cats, and the severity of the allergies, changes in cat food won’t be enough.

          Have the nanny and your kid spend the day locked in the bedroom does not sound like a reasonable solution to me, nor does having to be out of the house, given the whole pandemic situation – if it hits winter, and the weather is bad, and all the museums and so on close again, your kid will be spending upwards of 16 hours a day shut in their bedroom.

          In terms of what would really work and be effective? Either getting rid of the cats, and having your home professionally deep cleaned afterwards, or renting a second apartment so that she could pick up the kid and spend the day there. I suspect that’s further than you want to go, though.

          Ultimately, I suspect you’re going to have to let her go, ideally with severance pay and good recommendations (if you’re happy otherwise).

    6. CatCat*

      Wow, you’ve done a lot thoroughly and conscientiously. Short of re-homing your cats, I am not sure there is much more that you can do.

      If the steps you’ve taken still haven’t resolved the situation in a way that works for your nanny, the reality may be that this isn’t going to work out.

    7. Gumby*

      Consider an air purifier with a HEPA filter. Maybe just in one room that she’d need to be in frequently. It doesn’t 100% fix things, but one made a noticeable difference for my parents.

    8. Similar Experience*

      I’m not sure if your child is young enough that playing with them is still a largely on-the-ground experience, but if so, we’ve had good luck laying a couple of blankets over the carpet. They don’t hold on to cat fur as much as the carpet does, we can keep the cat off them in general, and they’re easy to throw in the wash.

    9. Me*

      You would be under no obligation to take this step of course, but I have just been seeing about a new cat food that reduces allergens. If it’s something you’d be open to it’s an option.

    10. ...*

      As someone with cat allergies, I just would never take a job in a cat-house. Even with benedryl im absolutely suffering every minute im around a cat. Its kind of on her, I mean she knew you had cats? if you can get a new nanny id probably let her go.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Keep in mind that even if you were required to be ADA compliant [as Alison noted, you’re not], the line here is REASONABLE accommodations. When you run out of them and you still have a nanny who is not able to work in the environment, it’s time to cut the employment short. Give her severance and give her your heart felt reference to find a new family.

      Your cats are part of your family, short of not having cats, you seriously can’t do anything to make this 100% allergy free on that part.

      Please note that “I don’t think they’re that bad, we can probably work with them!” is a huge red flag when hiring assistants, either in your home or in an office. People are desperate for work and will down play things to get a paycheck. I don’t fault them, we all need income! But again, I’ve heard “It’s not that bad, I can work with it” so many times and I can count on one hand how many times it really wasn’t “that bad”. She gave it the old college try here.

    12. Imtheone*

      You might want to read up on cat allergies. My understanding is that most people are allergic to the cat’s saliva, and then also to the dander. The hair is a problem because the saliva sticks to it. Cat allergens are very “sticky” and are likely to stay on the walls of rooms, etc.

      I have read about bathing cats with some particular type of soap to cut down on the allergens – I don’t know if that is recommended these days or not.

      For cat lovers, there are other medications to try, but I would not recommend that an employer suggest this to an employee who was bothered by the allergies at work.

      I’m allergic to dogs, and find that the worst place to be is the dog’s favorite sofa. People always assure me that the dogs are not allowed on the sofa – but a surprising number sneak up there. If I sit in a wooden chair with no cushion, I am much better. Sitting on the floor or carpet is bad. (Maybe the suggestion of sitting on a blanket on the floor would help.) To extend the wooden chair benefit, maybe the nanny could wipe down the chair and counter/table before sitting there. She should also really resist touching her nose or eyes, or at least wash her hands before doing so. You can convey the allergens on your hands to these areas.

  109. I edit everything*

    I’ve posted this before, but thought I would remind people in the US, as we get closer to the election. If you need some extra money this fall, thanks to COVID (or other reasons), give your local Board of Elections or equivalent a call. They probably are looking for poll workers for election day, and may well need office help leading up to election day, to handle the increased number of mail-in/absentee ballots, early voting, phone calls, etc. If you are the minority party in your area, they’re probably even more desperate for you. I am pretty much guaranteed a spot on election day because I’m blue in a deep red county.

    At least in Ohio, being an election official, even just for the day, is paid work. I get a little over $100 for the day, which isn’t a fortune, but also not nothing.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I didn’t realize it was paid in Ohio! I’ve thought about serving a an election official because at least where I live, it would definitely benefit them to be able to train younger poll workers (most of ours appear to be old enough to be retired). Not happening this year, though. I don’t need the money, and I get respiratory illnesses easily even when we’re NOT in a pandemic. Once we get a vaccine, though, I’ll make sure to contact the local BOE. (I’m not registered with a party, so I think that means I can serve in a slot for either party.)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I know people who have done this and it’s a great temporary placement option!

      We’re a perma-only mail in state so it’s always a huge pull, if you get a good reputation, you will get called back with first dibs at jobs for future elections as well if it’s something you want to have on your rotation list.

    3. Lady Alys*

      Can confirm, here in MN you get paid for several hours of mandatory training as well. My county is also looking to staff several early-voting locations in Sept/Oct too. Hours galore!

  110. octofish*

    I’ve been in my current job for almost 3 years and there is something that has not sit well with me. There was an internal candidate for my positon and they were not selected. The powers that be not only did not tell me there was an internal candidate when discussing the offer, but they also waited until I relocated to tell me that this person is a problem employee who needed to be handled. There were no interview questions associated with performance management of employees or any other clues that this could be a potential issue. I tried to work things out with the internal candidate and we were making some progress (the person was still very difficult and withheld information from me and so on), but I was told to put this person under a performance improvement plan or I would possibly face termimation. I wanted to give this a little more time, but I was overruled. I did what I had to and the person ended up resigning. Since then, I have not been given the proper resources to do my job here. I have asked many times, but there is no money to hire for the foreseeable future. I just can’t actively shake the feeling I was duped. I came from higher education, and this is my first foray into the non-profit world. Is this normal at all? Should I just get over it? I am actively applying for other positions that will require me to relocate again.

    1. Anon2*

      Ugg, that sounds awful. It wasn’t clear in your post, were you that person’s manager?
      I will never work for a non-profit. I did consulting work for several different non-profits a few years ago and it has been my observation that a lot of so called leaders in non-profit wouldn’t make it in the corporate world, because they aren’t actual leaders. The other problem within non-profits is they don’t tend to invest any resources for learning and skill building for their employees. So what happens is people get stuck “doing things the way we have always done it.” which isn’t always current or the most efficient.
      Good luck, I hope you are able to find something that is a better fit for you.

      1. octofish*

        Yes, I was that person’s manager. I was also told that all staff had a lot of experience in a certain skill and as it turned out, they didn’t at all. This doubled my workload because it takes about 2-4 years to acquire this particular skill set. I had tons of questions during my interview and spent time discussing my offer that inlcluded many more questions. I was lied to. Now that I am here, I am being told “we feel so badly about that, but you have the skills we need” and “we don’t blame you if you leave.” Why do such a dastardly thing by grossly misrepresenting the job?

  111. Hell Job Escapee*

    I was hoping to get some perspective on salary expectations with high unemployment.

    I just had a phone interview that was a mix of both project coordination and some clerical work. The salary range they quoted was $20,000 less than I was making at my previous job, with similar job duties. The salary is only slightly above what I was making at the job before last, where I was grossly underpaid.

    I know beggars can’t be choosers right now, but I’m also nervous that taking that huge of a pay cut will further damage my earning potential when the economy improves and there are more jobs. However, I know that job opportunities likely won’t come around much at the moment. I am willing to take a pay cut and have both savings and a living situation where I can survive on a lower salary, but am I wrong to hesitate on taking that great of a cut?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s too early right now to see how this crash is going to impact salaries across the board. Do you have other irons in the fire? I wouldn’t take a 20k decrease if you’re actively seeking other choices. Check your unemployment rules because you don’t have to accept a job that’s outside your general scope or that offers you a substantial decrease!!! That’s crucial to know and will vary depending on your state requirements.

      Example. This is why a doctor who’s laid off doesn’t need to go start working a minimum wage job as a store clerk. Or even go back and become a tech at a massive decrease in salary.

      1. Hell Job Escapee*

        I hadn’t thought about the unemployment part, so thank you for mentioning that! I’ll take a look since my state has made news about how crummy our unemployment system is.

    2. Former Producer*

      I understand wanting to accept a job — any job — while unemployed. I was in a similar situation in 2018 when I was laid off and unemployed for more than 4 months before I finally found a job. That position paid me less than the previous job I held (not as significantly less as $20K, but still a big drop for me since I would be making under $30K) but it was a shift to a new industry for me and the job sounded promising, so I took it. I ended up loving the job and it’s been the best job I’ve had so far, even though the company restructured and I ended up getting laid off again six months later. I don’t regret taking that position because I got a lot of good experience and was able to find my current job, where I’m getting paid $5 per hour more.

      $20K is a big drop though, and I would only really consider it if you don’t have any other viable job options, and you really believe you can survive on a lower salary. Or, like me, if it’s a position that seems really promising and something you’d enjoy, especially if there are opportunities for advancement.

      1. Hell Job Escapee*

        I’ve been aggressively applying for other jobs and this is my 2nd phone interview this week. This job is in a different industry and one I would potentially be interested in long term, but the actual work itself is along the lines of what I’ve been doing for about 5 years, which I do think is worth something. So, taking that 20k pay cut does hurt.

  112. Former Producer*

    I don’t know if anyone has any advice, but I just need to vent!

    I have been working remotely since March, since the school district I work for shut down on-campus operations. It’s all been going well and my boss previously was very cautious about us going back to the office. Her original plan for us going back was a phased-in approach, where each member of our team (there are 5 of us, including me, in our office space) would go into the office one day a week, and WFH the other days.

    Now suddenly, my boss says we’re going back, full-time, starting after Labor Day. The district says they’re going by metrics that the county is using, and we’re apparently in the “yellow”, which means we can go to a hybrid learning model, instead of fully online. Apparently that also means we all have to go back to work in the office, with no mention of the previous phased-in approach that felt much safer and smarter to me.

    I’m already feeling a lot of anxiety about this, and I don’t even fall into one of the risk categories for COVID-19. But I feel I have no option but to return. I could possibly request an accommodation because I live with my dad, who has high blood pressure (one of the risk factors), but I don’t think it’s likely that it would change my situation since it’s not me who has the health condition.

    I’ve been job searching for the past few weeks because of other reasons I’m unhappy with my job, but it’s extremely unlikely I’ll find a new position in the next week and a half, because I’ve only had one interview so far. I’m just so anxious about going back, possibly getting sick or spreading it to others. We have to wear masks all day, but I’m not so sure the building cleaning standards are rigorous enough, considering how lax they were before the pandemic. I’m so nervous about being in a building with at least 100 other employees for 8 hours a day, on top of the stress of my daily 2 hour commute (which I haven’t missed one bit) and other general day-to-day work stress. I just feel that the district is prioritizing politics over human life, which is really sad, especially since we’re dedicated to helping kids.

    1. Anon-this-time*

      Is your desk 6 feet away from others’ desks? Do you have a shield if not? Are you expected to deal with students, parents, vendors, etc. or just your coworkers?

      What exactly about this makes you nervous? Can you check on whether those specific things have been addressed?

      1. tangerineRose*

        Seems reasonable to me to be nervous about being in an enclosed space with multiple people for hours.

    2. Grace Less*

      I don’t have any advice, but I can commiserate. We got a “you’ll be back in the office full-time next week” message in early July. The policy seems to be unevenly enforced by department, but I am bemused that the “corner offices” are largely unoccupied while the open-plan workspaces are full.
      It 100% feels like the worker bees are being sacrificed for appearances’ sake. We’re being told to come to work, hold in-person meetings, etc. while the management meetings are held via MS Teams.
      A big frustration has been the realization that only immediate departments are notified of a positive COVID test, and no one is notified until a test is positive. Practically speaking, that means we were all touching the copier, coffee pot, etc. for a week before some of us learned that the virus was on our floor. (Others on the floor were never notified…because “there’s no need to start a panic.”)
      I’ve lost so much respect for this company, and am actively exploring opportunities elsewhere.

  113. Sick of herding cats*

    I need some advice. Two years ago I transitioned to a totally new career that nicely paralleled my old job. My current job is with a great company that has been nothing but exceptional during the past few months and I am making a larger salary than ever. However, I am definitely feeling the effect of burnout. I am tired of front facing customer service, which has been made even worse during a pandemic – and I’m starting to feel like I just don’t want to manage people anymore. It’s exhausting and takes up a lot of my emotional bandwidth. I am considering moving to another company for a significant pay cut in a similar business just to work solo and back of house away from people. I have talked to my spouse and we can afford this, it’s just so scary to consider.

    So help me out – is it worth it to stick it out in this world we live in right now or can I put my mental health first and change my career again?

    1. Han Shot First*

      I changed my career from biology to computer programming. It was all about the job market when I did it. I knew I was selling my soul to the devil. I loved going back to school, making new friends, and accepting the challenge of a new career.

      However, I ended up with two positions that led to burnout. Both of them were toxic in their own right. Three years after getting my degree in computer science and I’m trying to get back into biology very desperately. Granted, I couldn’t have been fired and a worst time (right before the quarantine stuff).

      Keep with what you are doing to get a paycheck while looking during your free time. I can’t tell you how crazy I’m getting while being unemployed during this mess while trying to find jobs that don’t exist because there are hiring freezes.

    2. Sick of herding cats*

      Thank you! I should have clarified that I work in an essential industry and I already have the job offer on the table. They are very flexible with my start date and are even willing to bring me on part time to make sure it’s a good fit.

      1. Han Shot First*

        First of all…..I just got in from walking my cat.

        It’s important to do what you love to do. If you end up in a career that makes you unhappy or burns you out, it can only end badly. I ended up up with a bad drinking problem to cope and have since recovered.

  114. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I have a feeling one of our drifter employees, who gets itchy feet quickly is looking to leave, this is due to a weird conversation where they mentioned they’d been here X amount of time and that most people want at least that much so they’re going to start looking… Which is their own choice and it won’t really effect us at all, given how many are looking for work right now. But man I clinched on a personal level, out of curiosity I went to check listings for similar work on Indeed and last year this time there was well over 400 postings [since we were looking at that time, I was doing the research as well.]

    There are currently FIFTEEN listings with that title and specs. FROM FOUR HUNDRED to FIFTEEN, y’all.

    I am shook. I wish everyone who is searching right now luck and am glad lots of us have such varying skill set. Labor jobs are decimated.

  115. Han Shot First*

    I had many issues with my last job. One of which was how they handled jury duty.

    When I got my letter in the mail, it was almost a year to date that my coworker had been called in. This raised many eyebrows since my [coding] team would be severely shorthanded – just as they were when my coworker had been called in right before I was hired. Everyone just accepted it and no one asked for proof that I had been summoned.

    In the weeks that led up to the week of jury duty, my immediate managers constantly told me during our morning calls (they were in different states) that I should say certain things in order to get out of being called to a jury. There were some very questionable things like “say you want to see the defendant hang or be electrocuted” when being interviewed. I would never say anything like that.

    When my week of jury duty came up, I contacted HR to make sure I would be getting paid for the entire week while serving. I got an emphatic “no”. I was salaried and had worked the Monday which was a holiday, to keep you filled in. A friend had found legal documentation that stated that I was to be paid in full for the week should I work one day of the week. By the end of the week, one of my managers had come back to be and said they said I was in the right and had no idea about the legalese. HR, by the way, made a huge fuss about this from the start when I inquired about it.

    Two weeks later, I was fired. HR said it was for insubordination, but refused to give any further details. I quickly discovered that my job had been posed the week after my jury duty. Because nothing was in writing, and they quickly deleted my email account while I was in with HR getting fired, I have nothing in writing. And everything my managers had said was only over the phone.

    Has anyone else run into this kind of problem?

    1. CatCat*

      Wow, I have not personally experienced it, but it sounds like potentially retaliation for performing jury duty. Not sure if that’s the case, but it sure doesn’t smell good. Where I live, such retaliation is illegal and I could file a complaint with the state and could sue the employer to recover any damages I’d suffered. I’d be surprised if this was not illegal and actionable in most places.

      1. Han Shot First*

        I’m pretty confident it was retaliation. But they made it quite difficult to get back at them.

        I didn’t have much time to decide to sign some forms in order to get a severance package. By signing this form, I stated I would not file any lawsuit against the company. At the time, I needed the money.

        It was also like pulling teeth to get anything in writing. Instead, I would get pulled into an office or a phone call from one of my managers. If I had anything to work with, in writing, I would have immediately called a lawyer.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Did they give you a copy of what you signed?
          That document may not be a valid document, just something to keep you “in your place” and scare you. I would forge ahead with calling DOL and asking about it.

          1. Han Shot First*

            I do have a copy of the document. I’ll look through it again and think about whether or not I want to pursue anything.

        2. CatCat*

          You don’t need things in writing to call a lawyer. A lawyer can give you advice on whether its worth pursuing, the validity of the document you signed, and whether that document prevents you from reporting to state authorities (I seriously doubt it could prevent that as the state would have interest in looking into this independent of your personal interests).

          Lawyers can engage in a process called discovery where they can get documents from the company (just because YOU have nothing in writing doesn’t mean the company doesn’t) and question company employees under oath (the more people involved, the harder it is for any sort of lies to be kept straight, attorneys are very good at ferreting out this kind of thing). They can also negotiate settlements (I mean, the company will have to decide if it wants a public filing and public trial of the allegations). Only a lawyer can let you know your options here and whether you have a claim. After that, you can make an informed decision on whether pursuing it is worth your time and money.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      A quick google search seems to verify what I thought, wrongful termination for jury duty. It’s my understanding that the employer does not have to pay you but they cannot terminate you for serving, either. This is because it would break our judicial system if jurors were not allowed to serve.
      It sounds like they are creating smoke and mirrors with this insubordination thing.

      I think I would contact the department of labor for your state and report it. Do try to decide what you want here, your job back? severance pay? stopping this from happening to someone else?

      1. Han Shot First*

        If I remember correctly, if I work at any point in the week, they have to pay me in full. I should have mentioned that the Monday was a federal holiday (not observed by the company). I worked that Monday and jury duty started the next day.

        I did end up getting my severance. And no…..hell no. I do not want that job back. I didn’t get holidays off like I should have, I would have been working 17 hour days towards the end of the year. I also got written up, in part, because I didn’t put emoji’s in my emails.

        I just think it was very weird that HR played dumb about the whole thing. The recruiting agency the company utilizes knows about what happened and I surely hope they don’t work with them again.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Have you considered writing about your experience on Glassdoor, or does the agreement you signed prevent that?

          1. Han Shot First*

            I have thought about going onto glassdoor. And yes, there is a stipulation that I cannot write any reviews without having to give back my severance. The problem is that glassdoor is no longer 100% anonymous. I have read in multiple places that you can be found out should the company in question ask. Even if I was basing all of that on bad websites, it would be very obvious who wrote it because of how small the company is.

      2. Han Shot First*

        The only problem is that this would be a he said she said situation. Without anything to prove my side of things, it would likely be a waste of time and money.

        1. WellRed*

          You could still report it, doesn’t mean you have to sue them or anything. You had jury duty, you got fired. That’s a pretty short and direct line. I’d file the complaint just to be an annoying burr under the saddle.

          1. valentine*

            this would be a he said she said situation.
            A lawyer can investigate, find other employees (who may have documentation), and possibly subpoena related emails. I smell a class action suit cookin’.

            Look for personal emails you wrote about it and make a timeline, including phone calls or conversations you remember discussing the situation.

    3. Han Shot First*

      Thank you all for the advice. I wrote in to Allison about this stuff (and a few more questionable things this company did), but that was over a month ago and it could have been written better.

  116. Environmental Compliance*

    Got some really good feedback this week regarding how I’m handling a problematic contractor. We are using them for compliance, and they have never been checked into (apparently), they’ve grown very comfortable, and are not fulfilling their contract nor any stated expectations. They have failed in many ways – communication, protocol, testing, reliability, and general knowledge. I shouldn’t be more of an expert after a week of research/Google than their 20-yr veteran engineer. They bluster & ramble on calls, they lose emails, they’re just…. bad. Overall.

    I finally got in touch with the dept that handles contracts and their National Head called a meeting with contractor. Contractor did not have a good time in this meeting. No punches were pulled, as I had discussed all of it with contractor multiple times beforehand….. and a colleague even reminded them of this during the meeting.

    My boss called me after the meeting to let me know that they were impressed, as were other meeting attendees. A colleague messaged me to tell me that contractor 1) needed to be held to the fire and be reined in severely and 2) definitely was not expecting any of that out of me, and to let them know if I needed any support from them going forward in the project.

    In my previous job, I really didn’t feel that supported. It’s nice to actually have that here. It’s not perfect here – I am finding *so much* that needs to be fixed – but I can just…. fix it.

    The only thing that’s weird is that I have to get used to compliments. I am not good at accepting good feedback. I am awkward. I am working on it, and I think am much better now, but it’s still uncomfortable to hear it.

    1. Always Late to the Party*

      It sounds like you deserve that good feedback! Sending vibes your way to help you own it!!

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Way to go! As for compliments, a cheery and simple “thank you!” (without saying things like “it was nothing” or similar) is sufficient.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Thanks!! I do try for the cheery, breezy, thank you, but I feel *so weird* just saying that! There’s no logic behind it. I’ve been told before I accept compliments well, so it’s apparently not obvious to others, but my brain still does the WHAT DO, PANIC while my face is happy.

    3. allathian*

      Good for you! I hope that as you get more used to positive feedback, you’ll be able to accept it with grace and not too much humility, never mind false modesty. A simple “Thank you” is sufficient.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Thanks!! I hope I’m relatively graceful now. I think part of the issue is getting over a previous job where I was just always the PITA (because I would not budge on compliance issues – if EPA says we have to do XYZ, no, I’m not helping you avoid doing XYZ), so it’s a big switch to “EC is our expert, she knows what she’s doing, y’all need to listen”.

    4. Emilitron*

      It’s hard for me to say “Thank you!” and feel like it’s a complete sentence, so I often say something about my enthusiasm for the thing, or agree that I’m satisfied with the outcome, etc. For example “Thank you, yes I think that meeting went well, too. I think it’s important that contractor knows we expect more out of them. I’m glad to have your support on this.” I still have to watch myself to keep away from self-deprecating (starts to veer into “thank you yes, I was so nervous demanding that from them!” or “thank you, yes, I prepared so much to be sure it went well”) so I could see how others might still say better to just accept and stop talking. But I do like saying something to keep the conversational flow going.

  117. C*

    Hey, y’all. Does anyone have any advice for how to conduct a job search in a new (professionally) field without any network or support system? It was bad before, but the past several months I’ve been spending a decent amount of the time I’m not at my retail job just crying in frustration. I’m pretty much resigned to white-knuckling it through another holiday season, but I don’t know how much longer I can stay here working for minimum wage without losing my mind.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I am not much on that networking stuff, in part because it feels contrived or fake to me many times. But I have built a little network of friends through volunteering. It doesn’t take a lot and I think this was one of my misconceptions. So Acquaintance Bob asked Friend Sue if she knew of anyone for x position that had opened. Friend Sue reminded Acquaintance Bob of me and Sue called me to tell me about it. Bob told my boss that he was comfortable in recommending me.
      Next thing I know I had a new job in a new to me arena. I had met both Sue and Bob from volunteer work.

      1. Colette*

        I can’t overstate the value of just telling people you’re looking (and, ideally, what you’re looking for.)

        1. C*

          Unfortunately, I’ve told everyone I know except the people I currently work with. I just don’t know many people. And I’m including friends, family, and people I’ve met online playing games here xD.

    2. Colette*

      Do you know what kind of job you’re looking for?

      Do you know anyone in an industry who employs people in those jobs? If so, can you ask their advice (how do people apply, how do your skills map to what they see people in those jobs using)?

      Do you have anyone who could review your resume or cover letter to give you feedback?

      What makes you good at the job you have?

      1. C*

        In order:

        Yes, creative positions with an emphasis on design or visual communication.

        No. I met one person in January through my sister, and she seemed excited to help me. Was even trying to set up a lunch with the two of us and one of her friends who works at an agency. Then the world had to lock down and….nothing. I reached out just to send well-wishes to her and her family, and then once more a few months later, neither got a response. She’s still in her same position and active on LinkedIn, but has ghosted me completely.

        Not really. I have had my friend look it over, but she’s in law, where there are very rigid norms that would make someone in a creative field seem out of touch.

        I’m good at my current job because I pick things up quicky, ask questions, offer solutions, and support my team well. I’m always up for helping out other teams if possible, and love learning new processes or skills.

        1. Colette*

          I am very much not in that field, so I’m not able to give good advice on that. Are there professional groups you can join? Twitter accounts you can follow/interact with?

          It sounds like you’ve got some good skills, but the first job is always hard. Have your reviewed Alison’s posts on resumes and cover letters? They might help.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Google associations or groups associated with the work you want to do and sign up for their mailing lists. If you’re a woman, I’ve especially found “Women In _____” groups to be helpful. I signed up for one of those and got invited to a women-geared virtual networking event that turned out to be awesome even though I was super shy at first (I am generally quite social, it was just a weird platform).

      The main thing to remember– and I struggle with this– is that patience is SO important. Not every contact will lead to something right away. Sometimes people will connect you and you’ll have a great conversation and then… crickets. Which is ok! Right now your goal is to make connections and be friendly.

      Also, check out websites for recruiting agencies or staffing agencies. Even if you’re not a great fit for one position, establishing a relationship with a recruiter can be helpful. Try to target ones that specialize in your field.

      And keep applying yourself. Just because people tell you it’s hard to get a job through Indeed or LinkedIn doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Keep your resume and profiles updated. Good luck!

      1. irene adler*

        Yes! Look for professional organizations specific to industries that you are interested in working in. They will help with networking opportunities.

  118. WorkerBee*

    I’m really struggling with fears of being unemployable and not being able to move forward. Basically, for my whole career, I’ve bounced back and forth between countries and fields. I have gone from generic humanities BA > education > customer service + archives > MA in archives and collections > archival role > customer service > education > customer service again with some archival volunteering on the side. This experience is based in three different countries, and with the exception of the customer service (which was all at the same company back and forth), it was all different companies.

    I don’t really have a linear path and it all looks very job-hoppy. Now I want to move to a new city (I really dislike my hometown and struggle with living with family), but at 28, I’m afraid no one will hire me, especially given how many people are looking for jobs and how many organizations are cutting back, and I’ll have to come crawling back to Hometown again. I have talents and skills, learn fast, and work hard at what I’m given, but don’t feel I’m very competitive.

    How do I get over this and present someone who is worth their time, and make someone with a weird background look good?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Think of it as you have skills and experience with A, B and C. (Write out a list if need be.)
      Then with each job ad, think about which skills or experience would fit that particular job and talk about the applicable parts.

      I made a master resume. Each time I apply I delete the parts that do not fit the current job ad and I add in other information that may not be obvious to someone not in the arena. I rename the file with the company name and my first initial last name. Ex: Chocolate Teapots N Newreader. pdf . My master resume stays intact for the next application.

      I have looked at enough resumes to know that you are probably one of millions of people with the same problem. Keep in mind, that the point is to explain why you think you can do this new job.

      1. NotTheOtherWorkerBee*

        Thank you for your reply – that makes a lot of sense. It’s especially nice to know that I’m not alone. I tailor my cover letters pretty closely but am less conscientious about doing that with resumes – will do that going forward. Does having work gaps matter so much in that case?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          People around me may wonder about gaps but it is in passing and on the same level with, “Will it get very hot today?” So having some semblance of an answer is probably enough.
          “I was taking care of a family member, but that situation is better/over now.”
          “I was finishing my degree, so I took the time off to do that.”
          Keep it real short, you would not fill paragraphs talking about how hot it will get today.

          For myself, I worry about work gaps. I have a relevant work section and then I have a chronological work section. The chronological work section is one line per job but it shows the main jobs that I have had.
          Teapots Inc- production lead-x date to z date
          Creamers and Sugar Bowls, Lmt. -shipper- y date to x date
          Coffee Spoons LLC- packer- w date to y date
          [It’s about as long as you see here.]

          I do have one serious gap and no one has asked me about it yet. I plan on saying the truth: I finished my degree and started to look for work. Suddenly my husband became ill and within months he passed. So some time was spent regrouping also.” There are some things that people just do NOT ask questions about. ;)

    2. WorkerBee*

      I would like to add that I am not the Workerbee who has been commenting above in this thread – I didn’t realize someone else was commenting using this handle. Honest mistake! I’ll use a different handle in the future.

  119. Similar Experience*

    I’m not sure if your child is young enough that playing with them is still a largely on-the-ground experience, but if so, we’ve had good luck laying a couple of blankets over the carpet. They don’t hold on to cat fur as much as the carpet does, we can keep the cat off them in general, and they’re easy to throw in the wash.

    1. Similar Experience*

      Misthreaded reply to the nanny/cat allergy situation. Reposted in the correct thread.

  120. EnfysNest*

    What do you do if you have a coworker who sets off your “spidey senses”, but hasn’t done anything that’s actually actionable? I have a coworker – we’ll call him Sev – who really worries me sometimes. He will get overly upset about something that is a minor problem, or he’ll borrow trouble by ranting about how much someone else is going to push back against a request before he even asks them. He has been getting argumentative or rude with our boss lately, but our boss takes a very calm approach with just trying to redirect him without flat-out telling him that he’s out of line. Sev also likes to make “jokes” that are right on the line between banter (which is fairly common in our office) and just being rude (not normal at all in our office).

    Other than pushing back on those jokes, there’s nothing else that I can really call out as actually causing a problem for me in my work, nor anything that would be classified as harassment or anything else that could be reported to HR or anything like that. Sev’s the guy that everyone kind of gives each other a sideways look about and raises their eyebrows after he walks off after rambling about something. He’s never done anything violent, and yet, I keep having the thought that if anything ever happened, he’s the one in the office that wouldn’t surprise me that it was him.

    I’m highly uncomfortable around any kind of conflict, so hearing Sev get argumentative with my boss or with someone on the phone (their offices are both next to mine) or when he starts ranting about something that everyone else considers insignificant or making his mean “jokes” often has me on edge. I wear earbuds as often as possible to block him out, but I still worry about him. And it’s not just me – our office has shifted since he was hired about a year ago, from everyone having their doors open and cheerfully chatting back and forth throughout the day to about half of us keeping our doors mostly closed and keeping to themselves (this change started well before COVID and isn’t related to social distancing, which several of my coworkers are honestly still a bit too cavalier about), and I’ve talked to other coworkers who have said they were doing so specifically to avoid Sev.

    We work for a government agency, so even if my boss wasn’t so laid back about dealing with him, things like “abrasive personality” or “adds stress to the work environment in general” are not fire-able offenses. And I can’t ask for something like “Please tell Sev to stop joking” when joking is normal in our office and his is just… a little off. Maybe he actually means well and he’s just awkward to be around and he would never do anything and I’m being unreasonable and worried for no reason, but he just makes things so uncomfortable and he seems to be getting worse, not better over time. Aside from “get a new job” is there anything I can or should do? Or am I just being oversensitive?

    1. tangerineRose*

      I don’t know what to tell you other than trust your senses on this and try to avoid him when you can.

    2. Always Late to the Party*

      I would just try to ignore him and not engage as much as possible. It sounds like he’s living rent-free in your brain. If you’re able, take that power away from him. If it’s not affecting your work and your manager won’t do anything there’s not much else to do.

    3. valentine*

      If your brain is saying, “Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!” or playing that meme song “Run,” I’d start looking. If the tingling hasn’t escalated to that, you can talk to your manager about how the ranting and the way Uriah speaks to him and on the phone has changed the collegial culture. Is closing your door the only thing you’re doing differently? Anything else that shows the type of toll he’s taking? I’d save the nastiness for a separate conversation so your manager doesn’t eagerly embrace defeat.

  121. Josephine Beth NotAmy*

    After another really awful conversation with my boss, I’ve finally realized that I can’t keep going in this job as long as she’s in this role.
    I haven’t had to job hunt in decades, so I’m super nervous about all of it, but ready to start the process. I’d love to hear what kinds of things other people found helpful as they started looking after a long time in one job. Also, any recommendations for how to quietly put out feelers? I’m in a very small field where everyone knows everyone else, and unfortunately I’m not able to move to take a job, so I have to be careful.

    1. irene adler*

      I’ve been at the same job for 28 years.
      Concentrate on most recent skills etc. unless the job description calls for a skill you acquired a while back.

      I don’t know how you would network, unless there are functions where many in your industry meet. There you might get to hear people talk about opportunities and what’s going in where they work. This might afford you a way to quietly follow-up on what you heard later on. Folks there might know about recruiters specific to your industry. That is info you might try to get – and follow-up on too.

      Make sure the resume shows skills are up to date.

      As age discrimination is an issue for me, I don’t use college graduation dates on the resume. But many places just ask for that info- then never get back to me.

      A friend (age 54) worked with a recruiter and got 4 job offers at the same time. He had something like 26 years at one place. All he did at each interview was describe his accomplishments (learning on the job) and all were impressed. He said the recruiter helped to get him ‘front and center’ to these companies.

  122. Wired Wolf*

    I’d just like to get some input into this, as it seems off to me.

    We were all effectively laid off a few weeks ago–in line with the PPP our official termination date is Sept 30th but I confirmed via phone that we were being let go earlier. In email we all received a separation agreement that looks a bit suspect. In addition to the agreement being postdated to Sept 30 (cannot be signed or returned before then) they are offering a grocery credit which is useless to most of us; they sell nothing that can’t be found cheaper elsewhere. In exchange for said credit we are expected to waive any rights under state labor law (so if we later got evidence/proof of discrimination or other impropriety we could not take action–I suspect some of us have evidence of shifty business already, the company knows they screwed up somehow and wants to cover their butt). The company actually stated in the agreement that we could consult a lawyer before signing…I did, and was told what I suspected; the company really isn’t giving us anything and it would not benefit me to sign it. I’m trying to find out if the $200 can be requested as cash or a 401K contribution. I’ve been there the longest (3+ years, since the store opened); I can’t get any information relating to severance. My 401K has not vested yet so I’m already losing a decent chunk, and I’m also trying to find out how they would report the “credit” for tax purposes…if they report it it as employee income would that even be legal?

    1. Reba*

      $200 at the company store doesn’t sound like real severance to me. I’m fortunately in a position where I feel I can walk away from that. I wouldn’t sign.

    2. ...*

      No idea about the legality of it all but id happily waive the $200 credit to keep more legal rights intact. Are they paying you through spetmber 30th? Because if they’re not they’re already breaking their PPP terms

      1. valentine*

        waive the $200 credit to keep more legal rights intact.
        Do not collect $200. It can only harm you. And it should be taxed as income.

        If I’m let go on September 29 at 11:59:59 pm, I’m not signing a document dated September 30, even if they give it to me at 12 am on the 30th. How is this going to go, anyway? Your last day is the 25th, but they pressure you to sign in an exit interrogation (avoid it at all costs, like the secondary location it is, and practice saying you need to speak to counsel first), send it to you so you sign on or after the 30th, or haul you back in (see previous parenthetical)?

      2. Wired Wolf*

        Nobody’s been paid since June. They got the original round of funding which ran from April to June…they already broke 2 of the provisions by a) reducing our salaries under the PPP and b) not bringing anyone back when it ran out. We were all entitled to still collect partial UI then as our wages were reduced, but were told that if we continued on UI they would consider that as a resignation (so we all got cheated out of 8 weeks of the supplemental UI). That, I do have proof of–after I was able to get HR to admit to that, they suddenly insisted on handling everything over the phone (gee I wonder why? could it be that under state law I couldn’t record a phone call and use it as evidence of something?)

        One of my weekly certifications for UI was staying in contact with my manager, and each week I was told “we’ll bring you back soon” by a manager who genuinely wanted me there which is why I haven’t been actively searching until now.

        1. valentine*

          –Nobody’s been paid since June.
          –they already broke 2 of the provisions
          –we all got cheated out of 8 weeks of the supplemental
          I would report all of this. Is there a cutoff date for applying for UI?

          After all this awfulness, I hope you’ll let go of the idea that you can negotiate with these people. They are breaking the law at every turn.

    3. CatCat*

      Sounds both shifty and ridiculous. Doesn’t sound like you have any reason to sign this. There’s nothing in it for you. What needs to be in it for you that is worth waiving your rights for? If there’s a dollar figure that is worth it to you, you can let them know that’s what it will take.

    5. Just My Opinion*

      There are some places where they essentially cannot ask you to sign away your rights without giving “consideration” (i.e. some form of compensation). So they have basically come up with the lamest consideration I’ve heard of.

      Also, for your 401k plan, make sure you read the document. Most of them have a provision that people who are laid off are automatically 100% vested.

      1. Wired Wolf*

        Ooh, good point about the automatic vesting. I hadn’t thought of that. It’s all online (Voya) so I will check.

        I don’t plan to sign anything unless I’m able to negotiate terms (as the only remaining ‘original’ employee I would think they’d value me a bit more than that/as much as I’d been told they do), and have told everyone else who got the email to consult with a lawyer to at least make sure they understand what they’re agreeing to.

    6. BRR*

      For the termination date, it’s possible they’re meeting the salary requirements for the PPP loan and consider you an employee through the 30th. Im not sure on the details Of the PPP though so maybe I’m wrong on that. It’s also incredibly common to waive the right to sue over your termination in agreement for a severance. Usually the severance is more than a $200 store gift card though. So not taking into account the PPP part, it otherwise sounds like an awful severance but standard severance package. Severance packages are negotiable though. You could ask for a lump sum based on years worked or the equivalent you’re losing from your 401k.

      1. Wired Wolf*

        Yup, I am considered an employee until then…but they may have to pay the loan back anyway. I’m not sure what the ‘updated’ loan terms are, but wouldn’t an applicant be governed by the terms that were in effect when they originally applied? I went down there today to break the news to my ‘peeps’ in the warehouse and the manager back there could have spit nails (he was one of the people begging management to bring me back ASAP).

        The initial email said that we were welcome to reapply “once they could open fully” but I’ve come to realize that I really don’t want to work there under the current management environment seeing as I’d been constantly sabotaged.

        1. valentine*

          he was one of the people begging management to bring me back ASAP
          Bring you back…to work unpaid? If it’s a company town, it’s time to strike.

          You might want to check the letter where the employees were working and the manager wanted them to stay on unemployment rather than paying them. Maybe there is some good advice there about what to you when you feel you can’t say no to unpaid work.

          Maybe they plan to send you backdated checks? (Is that also illegal?)

          There’s enough going on here to fill a book and a docuseries!

          1. Wired Wolf*

            I should have clarified “bring us back ASAP”; this was following the revelation that as essential workers in my state (grocery) we should never have been furloughed in the first place. When our retail phase reopened, we should have been brought back to work but were not.

            That’s what the warehouse was pushing for…but management decided they would get other managers (and the poor warehouse team) to do additional work for no extra pay. There are definitely rumblings of discontent among my peeps who are left…

  123. tired*

    Question for those of you that have to fill out timesheets: How do I handle booking unproductive time as a result of burnout?

    I’m working with management to address chronic overwork (and quietly job seeking), but I’m at the point of often staring at my laptop for hours unable to get anything done. This is active ‘trying really hard to read emails/be productive, but brain isn’t putting out any quality work’, so I want to make sure that time is reflected in my timesheet, but on the other hand no work is actually getting done, so I feel weird and bad claiming that it took, say, two hours to finish a task estimated at 15 minutes.

    I’ve been taking an approach of reporting time where I report time actually spent producing output, but that’s not accurately reflecting any breaks/stress breakdowns throughout the day. I guess I just want to tell my management that I’m having to pull “10 net hour” days, but am afraid of getting challenged on only 4 hours’ worth of work getting completed in that time.

    Salaried, overtime doesn’t affect my pay at all.

    1. Reba*

      Does it help if you think of it as akin to “time engaged to work”? Time waiting for the brainwaves to align?

      Do you feel like it would be safe to tell your manager, yes, things are taking longer these days do to general stress? And so you need to have fewer things on your plate to fit into the 8 hours?

      This is a basic symptom of burnout.

      It sounds like you don’t feel you can say that — you may be right, but it is worth examining the evidence there and what you know about your boss and workplace culture. But since you are already in some kind of conversation to address overwork, can this be part of it?

      Are you planning to take time off? What other solutions are they offering?

      Good luck on your search!

    2. Just My Opinion*

      If you are comfortable doing so and you have it available, ask them if you can get a referral to your Employee Assistance Program (EAP). Say you are having difficulty adjusting to the current state of things. Many EAP programs have coaching type services in addition to counseling.

    3. valentine*

      Thinking about work is work. If the timesheet has only hours/day, enter 10. You’re being way harsh, Tai, and on yourself! Why?

      And why the guilt? Who’s responsible for the burnout? Where’s your PTO? Can you take a week off or a day per week for a month?

  124. AvonLady Barksdale*

    OK, this is late, but hoping someone can help with language. I saw a job posted by a recruiter on an industry job board. The job looks like something I am qualified to do, and while I’m not super excited about the description, my current job is terrible and I’m looking to get out. I emailed the recruiter and said I’d like to hear more and sent him my resume. He wrote back asking for information about “current compensation.”

    Dude. No. My current compensation is not a factor here. For starters, we all know that’s a terrible question. Then there’s the fact that I’m working remotely in a high COL area for a company in a mid-range COL area– salaries here for similar jobs pay at least $30k more than what I’m currently making. Well, more than what I was making before my pay got cut.

    How should I phrase this? “My current compensation is based on a position in [mid-COL state]; I relocated for personal reasons and my salary remained the same. Therefore I am looking for something more in line with the market as well as my skills, in the $X-$X+15 range.” Something like that? I am not in a state where asking for salary history is illegal, but I really, really want to avoid telling him what I’m currently making, especially since I wouldn’t dream of moving forward with a job if it wanted to give me current pay + small bump.

    Please help! Also, oddly, this is the first time in my current job search that this question has been asked of me. Recruiters and hiring managers are actually getting better at this! Just this guy seems kind of behind the trends.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Are you comfortable just replying as if he asked you what salary you’re seeking — like “I’m looking for a salary between $X and $Y — is that in line with what’s budgeted?” Sometimes they don’t push when you do that (and sometimes they do).

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yeah, I think so. What’s the worst that can happen– he can push me about it? If he does, I’ll come back and say I’m not sharing (in nicer language), and if that’s not good enough… Feh. Thanks, Alison!

    2. EnfysNest*

      Just say “I’m looking for something in the range of $X-$X+15.” You can pretend he asked your desired range like he ought to have and don’t even address your current salary. It’s none of his business.

    3. Always Late to the Party*

      I think your language is good, but maybe lead with “I am looking for X-Y range” and then provide the context.

      Did he ask anything else about salary? I *feel* like earlier AAM advice has been to deflect this question by just answering with the range you’re interested in (although that may have been for in-person interviews where deflection can be done a bit more smoothly).

      So you could respond to his question with the range you are looking for, and only provide the context if he pushes back? (although there’s a higher chance this approach will put him off more than the approach you’re planning to take now…)

      1. Always Late to the Party*

        That feel when you refresh and Alison has given similar advice as you…guess 5 years of regularly reading this blog is paying off :D

  125. I'm a Little Teapot*

    I guess the best way of explaining this is: I don’t have a field or a career.
    I’ve been working for nearly 40 years, and I’ve worked in at least 4 different fields, earned a BA in English with a writing concentration, and ended up in a dead end job that I fear is going to be eliminated very soon. When I tell people I’m looking for another job, inevitably, the question is, “What kind of job are you looking for?” I’m freaking desperate. I own a house, I have a partner who doesn’t work and is not likely to, and I still don’t know what I want to be when I grow up. I don’t even know how to write a resume that pulls my four “careers” together and makes me look like someone who would be a valuable employee.
    I feel like a great big nobody and nothing. I tried to get resume/job coaching help from someone who I found out was a phony at the 11th hour. She didn’t even have a cell phone but was complaining that I didn’t have a “local number” she could call w/o incurring long distance fees. What the actual…?
    Please, can somebody help me? I live in an area where there are very few jobs, I can’t sell the house and move, and I feel like I have no future at all. Thanks for listening.

    1. OtterB*

      If you’re searching in an area where there are very few jobs and constrained against moving, and you don’t have a field you want to stay in, then I’d start by looking at the types of jobs that ARE available in your area or the types of organizations that hire, and then try to map the skills you have against those. Start out thinking at a high level about the tasks you have done (one classification is Data, People, Things, Ideas) and about the things that you are good at. They might be things in common across your 4 fields, or they might have been in one or two but not all. Does your writing help “translate” between specialists/technical people and regular customers? Can you edit other people’s writing? Are you good with spreadsheets? Detail? Managing difficult customers? Fixing things? Finding workable solutions to problems? Improving workflow processes?

      If you’ve been employed for 40 years, there are things you are good at. You may take them for granted.

      You might also look at online employment, which wouldn’t require you to move and which a lot more people are doing these days.

      Good luck with it.

  126. Sylvan*

    I’m pretty burned out on working from home. I’m too isolated and distracted during the workday. I’d go stay with family if they didn’t all have pets that aren’t buddies with my own pets, so I’m looking for other solutions. Has anyone here used a coworking space recently? Or found a safe way to get out of their house?

    1. PollyQ*

      IDK what the weather is like, or what restrictions in your area are, but you might be able to go to a public park & use your cell phone as a wifi hot spot, if you need to be online to work. Personally, I wouldn’t feel safe in a coworking space, and I’m not sure they’re open in my area anyway. Maybe redecorate a little, or upgrade your workspace somehow? I’m sorry I don’t have better suggestions. It really is difficult to be stuck in one place all the time.

  127. Bye Academia*

    I am having a serious working style clash with a collaborator, and I’m not sure how to handle it.

    When I was in grad school, my advisor was very demanding. We were on call basically 24/7, and if he called, we were expected to pick up the phone. If he emailed, we were expected to answer immediately. Often, he would ask questions that would require referencing data so I couldn’t answer on the spot anyway. He called/emailed so often it was hard to get any kind of momentum or focus going. I didn’t realize quite how toxic this was until I left.

    Now, I’m in an academic-adjacent job, so I still work with academics. Mostly this is fine, but one particular collaborator only likes the phone. I will send him an email with a carefully thought out update, and he will call me a few minutes later wanting to hash out the email verbally. I basically end up repeating what I said in the email, and he asks me follow up questions I can’t answer without spending time with the data again. I really hate having these conversations on the spot, because I’m usually in the middle of something else and don’t have a chance to think over my responses. Today, I sent an update on some work I did for him this week at 5:15 and he called as I was walking out the door and went on and on about tangents that weren’t even relevant to the email. I don’t know why he can’t just email me back instead, but whatever. People have different styles.

    I’ve noticed lately that I am disproportionately angry every time he does this. I think I am getting triggered by these phone calls, and it makes me feel like the graduate student with a demanding advisor again. But I’m not a student and he’s not my advisor. We’re peers. And I have a lot of collaborators. I am not only working on his projects. I hate that I feel like I’m at his beck and call.

    I don’t think it’s reasonable of me to tell him to stop calling. What he’s doing is mildly obnoxious, but not out of the norm. My instinct is to stop picking up every time he calls, but then he just leaves a message and asks me to call him back. Usually no context or follow up email with his questions, so even if I call him back later when it’s more convenient, I still don’t have a chance to look over the data he’s asking about. Mostly, I just need to stop being so angry every time I hear the phone ring and I don’t know how to do that. I just really clash with this guy, and I feel like I’m back in grad school having to drop everything for a demanding advisor.

    1. Anónima*

      I think you need to talk to him. Definitely only call him back when you can, but be really specific:
      ‘I’ve noticed that you’ll call after I’ve sent you an email and I end up discussing with you what’s in the email. Is there some context I’m missing here?’
      Or ‘I’m swamped right now but I’ve sent you this info in the email so let’s catch up later about it after you’ve had a chance to read it.’
      And ‘when you leave a message it’s really helpful for you to tell me the details so I know what I need to look up before I call you back.’

      It might be a case of you ringing him with what he needs to know, and he writing to you with the info you need to know. A compromise on communication styles.
      But deffo only respond to him when it’s convenient for you.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I’d say, “Hey, this isn’t good time. I’m in the middle of something else. Could you email me any follow-up questions you have, and we’ll set a time to talk through them in person or on the phone.”

      You’re angry because you’re letting him waste your time. But he is not doing it to you. You are doing it to yourself.

      He’s not your advisor or your boss. You can reschedule.

      At the same time, if he wants live interaction, you can offer that – on yout own schedule and when you’ve had time to prepare.

      If he won’t send you the questions, then he doesn’t get answers.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Do you know it’s him calling? Answer the phone: “Hey Bob, I’m right in the middle of something. I need you to shoot me your questions via email and I’ll call you back when I come up for air — should be around 3:30 — and we can walk through this verbally if find you still need to after you’ve gone over it again. If a different time works better, let me know in the email. Thanks so much.” *click*

      If he calls at 5:15, I would absolutely not answer.

      After you’ve answered the phone as above a few times, it would be easy to say, “Hey, I’ve found my workflow is a lot better when our calls to process the updates are scheduled, rather than within a few minutes of when I send you the updates. I’m happy to work around your meetings, but in general moving forward if you need to verbally process things, send me a reply with a couple of time options that would work for you and any questions you have so I can be ready to address them.” It’s okay for him to want to verbally process, but he can’t require you to do that on his timeline and put you at his beck and call. So draw THAT boundary, which will hopefully make his questions more focused.

      1. Bye Academia*

        My work phone doesn’t have caller ID, just different rings for internal vs. external calls (he’s external). If I hear the external ring, it’s either him or a spam call because literally no one else ever calls me out of the blue.

        I’m going to stop answering unless it’s actually a time I’m willing and able to chat for 15-20 minutes because that’s always what the calls turn into.

        I also like those scripts and will try them out the times I do end up picking up and realizing I don’t have as much time as he wants.

    4. Esmeralda*

      Stop picking up the phone.

      Stop
      Picking
      Up
      The
      Phone

      It can go to voicemail. If it’s after work hours, don’t listen to it til the next work day, and I don’t mean first thing either.

      Academics (and students) work at weird hours and they do not wait for work hours to send email. And why should they? It’s email.

      You do not have to answer the phone, read email, listen to voicemail outside of your work hours.

      Especially if you have regular hours — don’t work (often) outside of your hours. You are only training the academics to expect it when you do.

      IF they complain (and they may not, since this is not your toxic prof, yes?), then politely explain that you are unable to answer phone/email/voicemail at night:on weekends/early morning but will get
      back to them by noon next business day. (Or some such REASONABLE time)

      I’ve been a faculty member and I now am in an academic adjacent office. Pre pandemic we had set hours. You better believe I rarely answered work emails outside of hours. And I mean, I didn’t answer the provost. If I checked my work email, I did not open anything from anyone I didn’t want to respond to.

      1. Bye Academia*

        I don’t have hard and fast hours, but I am very good about not working on evenings/weekends from home like I had to in grad school. I do still have trouble with boundaries during work hours – remnants of feeling forced to answer the phone when my old toxic prof would call (this is definitely not him!).

        Thanks for this validation, coming from another academic. I’m definitely going to stop answering the phone every time.

    5. valentine*

      I don’t think it’s reasonable of me to tell him to stop calling.
      You can ask him if he’d mind replying in kind, so he replies to your emails with emails and you reply to his calls that specify what the bleep he wants with calls.

      You’re making up rules and following them to your detriment while he’s basking in blissful ignorance of your plight. How dare he waste your time. You don’t have to keep repeating yourself and you can ask him to gather all his questions in an email, which you will reply to after you consult the data.

      I saw a great chart the other day, that had extrovert/introvert, with things like, “Let’s talk about this now so I can decide what I think”/”I need to be alone with my thoughts so I can figure out what I think about this.” This sounds like the two of you. Just different communication styles, but yours is better for what you’re doing, whereas, he’s creating more work for you, that you’re accepting and doing.

  128. Anónima*

    I’ve reached a milestone anniversary last month at my place of my employment, and I still haven’t received part of my benefits. I contacted HR and they were like, “yeah were 3 months behind” but I don’t think there can be that many people who have reached the same milmilestone me in the same month, maybe a handful, so it shouldn’t be onerous to keep up. I think they’re doing it to save money.
    What can I do now, do you think? It’s really a small amount but I’m pretty skint and our pay isn’t great so I could really do with the money. Plus, ya know, I’m owed it!

      1. WellRed*

        Also, lots of people could be reaching various milestones or having other issues that HR needs to handle. If this is about a salary increase make sure they pay it retroactive.

    2. eeniemeenie*

      Here’s my HR perspective! I am the person at my company looking after all the milestone anniversary gifts. The reality is that it’s not high on the priority list when I have lots of other issues to handle, often with pressing deadlines. I generally schedule to do several people’s anniversary gifts in one go to save time so some people may get it early, others later. It sucks when people grumble about their gift not arriving On The Actual Day (or close to it) – I am really tempted to ask them to take over my schedule, and I’ll gladly do their gifts today. I’ve actually pushed to eliminate the anniversary gifts because I feel like this is a gift given out of goodwill / to show appreciation; but if people end up more grumpy then it doesn’t seem worth it for both sides.

      If you are owed this amount of money, the company won’t save any money by delaying payment. I get that the delay is annoying from your perspective but it’s likely that HR is busy with other stuff. My suggestion is send a polite request and wait.

  129. SparkleConsultant*

    My spouse is a healthcare worker on a COVID floor and I would love advice from anyone in a similar position.

    How do you deal with coworkers asking invasive questions about the pandemic?
    (My boss asks questions about my spouse at the beginning of every one on one meeting, even though I say that it helps me to focus on work at work. I have to mute my coworkers pretty frequently on video calls because they like to ponder all sorts of pandemic worst case scenarios out loud.)

    Have you found any good resources or virtual support groups for healthcare workers or their families?

    What is a good time to disclose my family’s COVID risk during a job search?

    We’re lucky to be healthy so far and to live in a place where we’ve already gone through the peak back in the Spring. I hope other healthcare families are doing ok.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are you working remotely? If so, they are meddlesome and obnoxious, I’m sorry you deal with this!

      We have to inquire about family’s status in our screening procedure for those at the office though, this is to keep everyone alert of the risk of infection among them.

      Don’t mention it to someone during the search, it’s nobody’s business unless again, you are not working remotely!

    2. Parenthetically*

      Regarding the first, I know you’ve told your boss it helps you to focus on work at work, but I think if you have a good relationship with them, you can be more clear and specific — something like, “I know I said before that it helps me to focus on work at work, but I want to be more specific. Can I ask you not to ask after Pat? I’m sure you can imagine that it’s pretty stressful living with this all the time and it would be great if I could use work time just to completely forget about Coronavirus stuff. Thanks so much for understanding.”

      I think with your coworkers, there may be times when you can interject and say something like, “Whoops, I’ve reached my CoronaQuota for the day, I’m just going to hop off the call and get cracking on the proposal for Llamas-R-Us. If you need me I’ll be right here.”

  130. WFH - being asked to return*

    Need advice about how to navigate this situation that arose today! My boss has been told that our office needs to be “open for business” and she is trying to put together some skeleton crew staffing with people rotating in for coverage. We are all currently WFH. My boss is very practical and cautious about COVID, so that’s good and I’m sure whatever plan she comes up will adhere to best practices, although we are in a old office with poor ventilation and no windows.

    During our team meeting today, she basically point blank asked every team member if they are ok coming into the office; she presented as an option and said she didn’t think she could require us to come in, but there was a strong implication that she wanted us to “pitch in.” I hedged a bit and said I’d need to think about it bc my husband has to go to work. It was a little awkward because everyone I work with is in their late 50s-early 60s and they all said yes, while I’m in my early 30s. The thing is, I literally JUST found out I’m pregnant – like, I took the test today. Obviously it is super early on, but I really need to get to the doctor (and get set up with an OB practice!) and discuss what the medicial recommendation would be about the work scenario.

    I think my boss will probably ask me again before I get in with my doctor next week because she’s trying to get this schedule set. Right now I am planning to say that I’m sorry I don’t have an answer yet, but that I am checking with my doctor due to some medical stuff I have going on. She will definitely be taken aback bc to her knowledge, I’m the youngest and healthiest in the office. Obviously I have no intention of telling her I’m pregnant since it’s way too early.

    Thought about prefacing my spiel with “I know your intention was to be transparent and collaborative, but I was a little uncomfortable when you asked each of us in the meeting about whether we would be ok with coming back, since I actually would need to talk with my doctor.” I’m leaning towards not anything about my discomfort, though, bc I think it’ll be apparent when I say that I will get back to her after talking with the doctor.

    Thoughts? Am I right to be a little annoyed about the way this was presented? To me, it just feels like a very personal choice (since it is a choice at this point in my office) and I didn’t appreciate being put on the spot about it in the meeting. I feel like my “need to check with the doctor” answer is a bit vague and she might even be skeptical bc I have mentioned in the past how much I like WFH, and I do have a bear of a commute! I just can’t really think of a better solution right now.

    Thanks in advance for any help!!

    1. PollyQ*

      In no particular order:
      * Yes, you’re right to be annoyed that she asked this way in a public meeting. There was no reason that couldn’t have been done privately or over email.
      * No, I don’t think it’s worth spending capital to bring up the issue of your discomfort. She can’t go back & re-do it, and I’d save your battles.
      * I hope your boss isn’t too “taken aback” when you tell her you need to talk to your doctor, because nobody should ever make any assumptions about other people’s health situation, especially an employee’s. Even if she is surprised, she still shouldn’t give any answer besides, “OK, let me know what the doctor says.”
      * There’s a decent chance that she’ll suspect, or even outright ask, if you’re pregnant. I’m not sure what you ought to say if she does, but it’s maybe worth thinking ahead about how you’d deal with that.

      Congratulations on the upcoming baby, and I hope everything works out for you in your office!

  131. Grand Mouse*

    Just encountered this again at work and it’s breaking my brain. Lip prints on the windows around our admin’s desk. I’m a janitor so besides the usual annoyance of cleaning glass… it’s a pandemic and you shouldn’t be putting your mouth on things?? And whoever is making kissy faces at the admin feels wildly inappropriate. I have a suspicion of who. Do I bring it up? It is definitely a coworker since it’s a restricted access. Do I really have to find out and tell an adult not to kiss the glass?

    2. Mmmmmmmmmm*

      Leave a sticky note on the glass? “It’s a pandemic, please do not place lips on glass. -thx”

      But honestly, who does that????

    3. Jaid*

      I’m reminded of that old story where girls in a high school were kissing the mirrors in the bathrooms and leaving behind stains. The principal, fed up with this, brought in a custodian to show them how much more work they were causing him. The girls just giggled…until they saw the custodian dipping his brush into a toilet* and using it to clean the mirrors.

      *shhhhhh, just pretend that the toilets were scrubbed down and stuff.

    4. valentine*

      Do I really have to find out and tell an adult not to kiss the glass?
      Only if you provide an update. You might mention a bank robber was caught via the DNA in his lipstick print because he slammed into a closed glass door.

      If the admin doesn’t enjoy it, you’ll be helping her.

  132. Playing Hookey?*

    Question: What is the legality of forcing your employees to use sick leave for non-sick days off?

    I work in an office that has both vacation day and sick day benefits. However, the office has made it very difficult to use vacation days but too easy to use sick days. It is well-known throughout the staff that if you want to take time off for a day or two at most, you should just call out sick the day of. Getting approval for actual vacation time needs to be done way in advance; therefore, if something springs up for a day off, more than likely, you are not going to be approved and will have to forfeit vacation time.

    1. valentine*

      What is the legality of forcing your employees to use sick leave for non-sick days off?
      It’s legal. There’s nothing sinister about using sick leave being for one to two days off, unless you run out quickly and end up working sick much of the time.

  133. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    Is it normal for job postings for things like general data entry/admin positions to not list the company it’s for, or even the field/industry? I’ve seen this for years on places like Craigslist and always thought it was so weird, and not helpful for writing cover letters, because it’s hard to express enthusiasm for a company you know nothing about!

  134. Mmmmmmmmmm*

    I might be too late to the game for anyone to see/answer this, but is it possible for my boss to change my hours (written in my employment agreement) from first shift to third?

    I was asked to “volunteer” to go to third for a “short period of time.” I know within my soul that 3rd shift is not for me, and I really (really) don’t want to do it.

    1. valentine*

      is it possible for my boss to change my hours (written in my employment agreement) from first shift to third?
      Yes. What happens if you say no?

    2. Clever username goes here*

      Whatever you do, get the agreement that it’s temporary *in writing*. With a very clear end date. Good luck.

  135. Alianora*

    Does anyone else have a “thing” that you regularly get praised for but doesn’t feel that impressive to you?

    I’m the “expert” at my workplace on using a particular software. I’m self-taught. There’s a lot of documentation out there, and while the software is capable of doing a lot, I feel like the user interface is pretty intuitive.

    Most of my work involving this software gets done on my own time, but occasionally I’ll be asked to use it during meetings. Every time, I get comments on how impressive it is that I can use it on the fly like that.

    I’ve actually offered to train others on it, and I’ve told them it’s easier than it looks, but people are usually like, “I could never learn to do that!” I mean, I’m not complaining – feels really good to hear – but it’s always surprising and a little funny to me that people are impressed by that, but not by other things I put much more effort into.

  136. Chaordic One*

    Today I was officially (but temporarily) recalled back to the office for a one (possibly two) day training session next week on Wednesday. They had at least one confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis in that building in the last month among the comparatively small number of people who had to go back to work there. (The rumors say it was at least 5 people.) I’m kind of nervous about it. We’re supposed to be socially distanced and we are all required to wear face masks, so that helps a bit.

    I’ve been so good about socially distancing while WFH, and I had planned to visit my parents in distant town on the 3-day Labor Day weekend. Now I’m kind of afraid to visit them. I wouldn’t want to be asymptomatic and pass anything onto them.

  137. ChubbyCats*

    I’m an introvert who just got called out at work for making a suggestion that improved work flow.

    I’m…not happy with getting called out for it. I should be, but as an introvert it just makes me very uncomfortable to be called out company wide for something I suggested that was for something to help ME do my job more efficiently.

    Is this weird, unreasonable, something my non-introverted readers just finds odd?

    1. Anna Banana*

      That’s not an introvert thing. It might be a shyness thing but introversion is just about whether you recharge your energy from being with others or by yourself. (I don’t mean to nitpick, just don’t like introvert being used as a synonym for shyness!)

      1. Pennyworth*

        I second shyness. I was so shy as I child I used to hide if visitors even looked at me. I’ve learned to live with it but I still hate being the focus of attention.

    2. Alianora*

      I’m an introvert. Yeah, I think it’s a little unusual to be unhappy for being praised (I assume you mean “called out” in a positive way here.)

      Not exactly weird; I do get it. When I was more anxious and socially awkward, I used to be uncomfortable with public praise in the same way, if it was unexpected. But now I have more of a… pragmatic attitude, for lack of a better term – I’m just happy to get positive feedback, in whatever format.

    3. LGC*

      Direct answer: I cannot fully answer your final question because like approximately 99.9% of the AAM comments section, I’m an introvert and thus the question was not directed at me.

      I’m going to make the same assumption as Alianora – that you meant that you were publicly praised. (If you were “called out” in the more common usage of the term – that is, your suggestion was publicly dismissed and reprimanded – of course you shouldn’t be happy!) If it’s a positive thing…like, yeah, it makes sense to me. And I don’t think that it’s necessarily an introvert/extrovert thing, it’s more of an attention thing. That’s a lot of attention to have focused on you, and if you’re not expecting it that can feel overwhelming.

      I’d definitely feel happy that they liked your suggestion. And you most certainly can feel unhappy (and even more unhappy) that they blasted it to the entire company.

  138. OtterB*

    I’m going to focus on the “I should be happy about it” point. How you feel is how you feel. Treat the feeling as information. Maybe look behind it. Why are you uncomfortable? It sounds like it’s not so much that you don’t like the attention, as that you feel like you don’t deserve it. Why not? Dig into it a little. When you were younger did you get accused of seeking attention, of being selfish, of being lazy? See what the feeling is tapping into.

    Or not. But this introvert thinks it’s not just introversion.

  139. Turn Downed Small Business*

    How can small companies deal with a high turnover rate or a chance that a key members of the staff will usually leave the company in less than 3 months.

    In this job market and economy, job seekers are usually going to go for jobs that provides the best pay and retirement plans. Job seekers usually cast their net wide and accept jobs as they come, but sometimes they get a better offer after they accepted their first job offer. This will usually lead to the new hired employee quit the job from the smaller company to go for the bigger company that pays more.

    It is hard for job interviewers to know the truth behind the job seeker’s circumstances. It is something that neither side can control.

    For small companies, will it be a good idea for them to outsource some business functions (such as accounting, benefits planning, etc.) if they are not the most competitively paid employer in their field?

    I wonder how can companies that only have less than 5 people in each department deal with sudden new hires backing out so soon or at the last minute when they are needed the most?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Rapid turnover means your employees are unhappy, and something is wrong. The way to combat that is to find out what is wrong, and fix it.

      You seem to be aware that you are paying people below market rate. If you want skilled people to workfor less than they’re worth, you have to offer something else that makes up for it – benefits, flexibility, autonomy, interesting projects, advancement, a great work environment, culture, mission….something.

      The truth behind every job seekers circumstances is that they want the best job they can get.

      Stop trying to find people who will put up with an unsatisfactory job, and find a way to make your workplace competitive.

  140. OhNoNotAgain*

    I desperately need some advice regarding a bully and a brand new job that I feel like I’m fucked if I stay, and I’m fucked if I go. I’m REALLY sorry about the length, if you just want the question it’s in the last paragraph. But… the middle is a whole lot of context.

    So when I was younger I struggled finding any job because I had terrible self esteem. Many many retail jobs that I sucked at. About 11 years ago a job fell in my lap to work in a legal office and I thought I’d scored the jackpot.

    … turned out they’d hired me because I was untrained and they could avoid following the law society rules they didn’t like because I didn’t know better. Also I had been being paid about half what I should have been AFTER raises, no benefits, overtime had to be banked (but I was never allowed to use it) and even taking the legally allowed minimum time off for deaths in the family were met with complaints.

    The plus side is I knew I kicked ass at that job. I learned everything I could from anyone who’d tell me, I kept things running despite no systems being in place, I became the person people came to BEFORE the lawyer because they knew if I said something, I’d follow up on it.

    About a decade later I finally quit. I was exhausted, I’d had a bad run of health luck that had left me with no extra energy and I couldn’t keep it up.

    I switched over to a semi-related field. In the interview, it was specifically stated they were impressed with what I’d done and wanted it done to their office and that was why they wanted to hire me. Only… not. When I started adding changes that would improve efficiency, accuracy, and/or privacy concerns, they complained and moaned and made me change it back. But also they assigned me, as the newest, to the person with the heaviest load by about 2x who constantly complained when I couldn’t keep up but wouldn’t let me change anything to give me the speed I needed. Also the office politics were FUCKED. UP. The other 2.5 assistants in the building never spoke to me unless I spoke first, answered shortly, but talked to each other regularly. The people a rank above us were vain, gossipy, backstabby, and openly bigoted against pretty-much-everyone-not-them. I’d never felt so alone or so unwanted.

    About a year later I switched AGAIN, back to the legal profession. I got into a small office that openly embraced efficiency, and I knew because I took a look. I liked what I saw. COVID meant I only met one other person but then, meeting someone for a job interview isn’t always going to show you the rot, right?

    So I’ve been at this job for 3 months. I wanted so badly for this to be it. I was good. I got a raise within a month and a half. My co-worker likes me. We talk all the time. Management praises me.

    But one lawyer… one lawyer shouts and swears at me on a regular basis. I brought this to the office manager first and they’re partners with the owner, and we talked and OM said to just push back if he started doing that. I was REALLY wary of this, I’ve been in this situation before. In school I was bullied until the last couple years. After high school I had a few post-secondary/job-related bully incidents. In every case the solution was “just ignore it” (which I knew damn well long before I left school was code for “just suck it up because I don’t know how/want to stop it, so it’s easiest if it just continues but you stop saying things”). And when I pushed back, it suddenly became ME that was the problem, why wasn’t *I* a team player, didn’t I understand the value of teamwork? And until the end of my time there, that was my label. “Not a team player.”

    So I spoke to my co-worker, who also laughed and said “oh, just push back, I did and he stopped doing it to me – and OM did too and he stopped doing it to them too.” OM, despite my having asked them not to, spoke to the owner and the owner spoke to me and the gist was “oh he’s just like that.” (RED FLAG. RED FLAG. RED FLAG.)

    It wasn’t going to be raised by owner. It wasn’t going to stop. But maybe it was just a bad day? So I left it.

    But no, it happened again. And again. So I risked it. I pushed back. At first it seemed okay. The first time he started raising his voice to speak over me when I was talking to someone else, and about to address the point he was bringing up as if I were an idiot, I gave him a glare and snapped “as I was about to finish…” and finished what I was saying. He quieted down… for about two days. The second time, he was late for a meeting and he came in yelling and swearing loud enough to clearly be heard by everyone in the office, including the clients I’d put in the meeting room on the other side of the office in the hopes of avoiding just that. I waited until the next day and then I calmly told him never to do that again. He blustered and insisted he wasn’t yelling, or he didn’t know he was yelling. And also he had a problem at home because of the meeting. I said I didn’t care what the problem was, I didn’t care he didn’t know. No more yelling and swearing.

    He still did. When I called him to transfer a call through I knew he didn’t want to take (LOTS of them), he’d get angry and swear a ton. But I’d ignore it and I’d just silently wait for him to shut up and answer. And eventually he’d say yes or no to putting them through.

    A couple days ago he did it twice in a day. I called him about a court appointment someone called him about THAT DAY he didn’t know about. He had 15 minutes warning. He swore and cussed and wouldn’t let me finish what info I was trying to give him, then hung up on me. Fine, whatever, he’s in a rush.

    Near noon, I called him about ANOTHER appointment. AGAIN for 15 minutes from them. He swore and yelled AGAIN and wouldn’t let me finish AGAIN.

    His entire day ended up filled like that, so I left it. But the very next day, as soon as I had time, I stopped him. And I said “you said you didn’t know you were yelling last time.” “Huh?” “You said the last time I approached you about yelling and swearing you didn’t know you were.” “Yeah?” (clearly impatient) “Well, you did it again yesterday. So the next time you do that, I’m going to hang up on you, and you’ll get-” “Don’t hang up on me!”

    (sigh)

    I insisted I WOULD be hanging up on him and he would receive the message by email because I wasn’t going to be talked to like that. He kept talking over me while I tried to get out THAT ONE SIMPLE MESSAGE of DON’T TREAT ME LIKE A DUMPING GROUND FOR YOUR ANGER MANAGEMENT PROBLEMS. The owner was in the room and THEN they got involved and said something about “let’s all learn to work together.” And started excusing him for his behavior because “he’d had a bad day yesterday.” I pointed out this wasn’t the only time it had happened and owner knew that and had heard previous examples. Owner reluctantly nodded, angry guy immediately denied it and demanded to know when. I started listing the last example and he started talking over me again. The gist of it was:

    1. He wasn’t yelling!
    2. Or if he was yelling he didn’t mean to!
    2. Or if he was yelling he wasn’t yelling at me, he was just yelling!
    3. And even if he was yelling, which he wasn’t, he was having a bad day!
    4. And even if he was yelling, which he wasn’t, I’d have to get used to it!

    Yes, he LITERALLY said “you’ll just have to get used to it.” That’s the point where *I* interrupted and said no I didn’t and that’s why I’d hang up if he did it again. And he again kept interrupting me to say “don’t hang up on me! don’t hang up on me!” And the owner was still acting like we were both a part of the problem by saying “oh she’s not really going to hang up on you, you won’t will you?” and I said “I won’t if he doesn’t yell at me” and he said “okay well he can try not to yell at you right (angry guy)?” Angry guy goes through the list above again. Not ONCE does he say the words “sorry” or “won’t happen again”, either of which would have left me happy to leave it at that. But as long as he evaded, I wasn’t willing to agree NOT to hang up on him.

    He eventually slunk into his office after a promise to ‘try’ not to yell. I went back to my job. Owner about two hours later looks up and laughs and makes a comment about my having a temper.

    …F.U.C.K. I KNEW this was what would happen. I knew because any time I was bullied in the past and nobody with the power to do anything would DO anything and I finally pushed back, THIS was the word that was lobbed at me when I did! Temper! Temper! I have a temper! I was known for having a temper! F.U.C.K. I just shrugged it off in the moment and kept working and went home – yes, ragingly angry. Angry that I was in this situation again and experiencing a LOT of leftover trauma I didn’t even know I had from a childhood full of adults ignoring my requests for help.

    The next day, owner was in a meeting all day, went straight into it and was in it until they left. Co-worker and I were very busy and had a lot of work that both of us contributed to, so we did our thing, chatting in between and generally having a nice day. Angry guy didn’t speak to or look at me once in the day, mostly kept to his room. I looked up any time he came into the room and when he went past me I just looked back at my work again, and gave him his messages, etc., speaking politely and calmly the whole day. A break in owner’s meeting occurred and owner came out and was talking to co-worker. I was working constantly because there were a lot of that-day deadlines I had to get things ready for and was the only one that could do. Owner looks up and said “are you okay?” … yes? “Okay, you’re just really quiet today.” I look as surprised as I feel and do NOT look as UNSURPRISED as I feel and state yes, I’m fine, there’s a lot to get done that day (which owner knows because that’s what they’re doing with co-worker – some of the requirements needed from them that day for those deadlines). I keep working. Co-worker keeps working. We are kicking ass at a deadline-heavy day and are both happy about it. Co-worker expects to leave early and his happy that that seems likely. Owner appears again a few hours later on another short break to get a few more things done with co-worker. I am still working away. Owner again asks “are you okay?” and “you’re more quiet than usual!”

    Yes, another thing I am used to. MY moods are being monitored. Oh hey did I mention the day he came in yelling and swearing because of his missed appointments, owner bought angry guy lunch because he was having a rough day? But *I* have my moods monitored.

    It’s Saturday, and I’m still SO angry. I’m SO afraid. I’m SO frustrated. I can move on again – I kind of really WANT to, this kind of thing is in my experience completely unrecoverable, people just decide this is who I am and then I have a reputation of that person. But HOW do I move on? If I apply elsewhere, and leave out the three months I’ve been here, how do I explain why I quit the-job-before-this without another job lined up in the middle of COVID in a city that has historically shitty job rates anyway? If I don’t, I can explain why I left the 1 job after 1 year, but a second after 3 months… they’re gonna ask what’s to stop me leaving them after 3 months if I even get to the point of an interview, right? Can I SAY it’s “it turns out there’s a bullying problem management is unwilling to address”? Can I say “because a grown man who is higher in social, employment, and financial status than I am has been regularly yelling and swearing at me and it doesn’t appear it’s going to stop”? Is that reasonable, or will they just go “she MIGHT be a drama llama so we’d better just skip it?” I feel trapped. I feel sick. I should probably mention that I have anxiety and depression as well and this? This is doing neither any favors, but the anxiety especially has been in high gear the last few days. I can’t afford not to have a job, even with EI. And HOW do I avoid a similar situation in a future job? How do I ask “please tell me if you have an office full of bigoted people that nobody in HR or management cares about the hateful things they’re saying because I’ll be miserable there” or “please tell me if you have someone who treats the people below them like human garbage”?

    1. Kathenus*

      I’m answering with one quick reading of this, as I don’t have time to study it and reflect more, so take my thoughts with that in mind. From my reading this, I think the comments about you having a temper are a GOOD THING! I know you may not, or maybe just can’t see it from an outside perspective. But you held your ground with angry guy, in front of owner, and even with angry guy continuing to be a jerk you stood firm. They both noticed it – angry guy is sulking, owner remarking on your temper.

      I’ll be honest, my initial reading is GOOD JOB YOU! Now back it up by continuing to walk the talk – if he yells on the phone do exactly what you said and hang up on him. Just like you’ve called him on yelling in person. Don’t worry about the ‘are you OK comments’, seems like owner just has weird ways of dealing with people (lunch for angry guy, concern/faux concern for you – whether due to longer term relationship/friend and newer person or gendered, who knows).

      I think you pat yourself on the back, continue to hold your ground against angry guy, and if owner asks again if you’re OK just say yup and keep woirking. Or if you’re snarky like me, you can say something like – ‘I’m great, 2 days and counting without being yelled at’. I think you’ve done great – so see if you can reap the benefit of having stood up to a bully and enjoy the rest of the job before you jump to a more drastic solution like leaving.

      1. OhNoNotAgain*

        Oh my god, thank you so much for this. I do know that being able to stand up and say “no I will NOT accept this treatment of me” is an amazing feat, and I’m super proud of myself for having managed to have gotten to that point from where I started and how I was raised (be quiet, be gentle, be ‘nice’, don’t make waves, the usual bs)… but my goodness, the outside acknowledgement makes me feel so happy and seen. Thank you!!!

        As far as responding… well, “yup, I’m fine!” is pretty much where I left it at but the problem is that historically (and I could tell in this case too) people seem to hear that as “I’m not actually fine”. It’s like… well, you know those terrible attitudes toward women like “there is no right answer to ‘does this make me look fat'” or “if she seems angry and you ask her what’s wrong and she says nothing, you know it’s something”? It’s like that, only not a bullshit sexist joke – just an actual problem. There doesn’t seem to be a right answer to the question, I get a funny look thrown my way then they wander off and ask again later. And it makes ME, a natural introvert who struggled with people interaction for years anyway, suddenly hyper-aware of everything I do that MIGHT be judged as “not okay”. Am I blinking enough? Am I breathing too loud/holding my breath? Am I avoiding eye contact or looking too much? Am I talking too much or not enough, too loud or too quiet, too seriously or too lightly? And considering owner would be my only reference for this job, well… if their impression of me changes so quickly, and they appear to value keeping angry guy happy/unbothered over the ability of their lower staff to work in peace with normal human interactions – I really wonder if cutting my losses early isn’t a good idea.

        Anyway, before this turns into another wall of text – thanks for reading it at ALL, your advice and praise are both very appreciated. :)

        2. New Senior Mgr*

          I usually read the weekend thread late so pretty late in responding. I hope you come back to read this thread periodically. I read your post TWICE and let me just say you are my hero. You absolutely rocked this. No one will ever bully you again. They may try but you’re not having it. When things get back to normal, I encourage you to consider volunteering with young people and tell your story from beginning to now, again and again. You have no idea how many lives you can touch just by telling this story as you have here. Much Solidarity.

    2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Oh my goodness, you sound awesome. You handled this so well, but I absolutely understand why you’re shaking. I would be too.

      Can you get more info from the colleagues who said they stood up to angry guy and he stopped yelling at them? In what way did they stand up to him, and how did angry guy’s behavior change around them (or not)? Does he always do this to the newest person? Is he always doing it to someone, so it’s just a musical chairs version of yelling?

      If the boss ever refers to your “temper” again, look confused and say, “Whose temper? Oh, you must mean angry guy. He’s the one who yells.”

      It’s completely ok to job search. Even though you’re capable of surviving and standing up for yourself in this situation, there’s nothing requiring you to. Especially if it’s putting you back in a dynamic that’s bad for your mental health. Life’s too short.

      Alison has some versions of scripts here for explaining a quick departure from a job with culture problems: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/02/how-can-i-explain-why-im-leaving-my-new-job-after-only-three-months.html

      Even though you were at your previous job for only a year, it sounds like you were at the one before that for a decade, which helps.

    3. What the What*

      Your problem is that you are viewing “having a temper” as a failure. View it as a success. When someone says “Sally has a temper” you should say “You’re damn straight I do. So you better check yourself before you wreck yourself.” When someone says, “She won’t hang up on you really…” you say “I will hang up on anyone who disrespects me. I do not have time for that.” You say “Honey, if you want to vent at someone, you call your mother and yell at her. That’s not my job.”

      You say “Come back when you’ve calmed down and I will listen to you then.” If he talks over you, walk away. If you get asked about, you say “I assumed that conversation was over.”

      I remember the first time someone said “No one messes with you because you’re scary.” I was a bit hurt. What did I do to be scary? I’m polite, professional, and I don’t have patience for a bunch of BS. I guess it’s the last one that makes me scary. Whatever. I’ll take it.

  141. Minutes to Midnight*

    I need help navigating the recent move to make trans inclusive spaces at work. Specifically disclosing pronouns.

    My manager, who is honestly quite cool, send out a message to our groupchat yesterday saying we’ll all be getting new name tags and she wanted our names and pronoun preferences. I’m not 100% sure, but based on the request I’m assuming the pronouns would be displayed on the tags as well (otherwise why order everyone new ones when most everyone is keeping the same name that they have been).

    My problem is: I’m enby/genderqueer, my pronouns in private are not the ones that match my assumed gender at work. I’m fine with people in public spaces assuming which set to use, but *choosing* those and displaying them feels wrong for me, but I’m not even close to being comfortable with outing myself. I don’t think anyone at my work would be transphobic (though I guess I can’t be certain) but it’s not a part of my life I’m ready to have overlap from personal to professional.

    I just feel a bit stuck, I’m not sure where to go forward from here. I don’t want to affirmatively misgender myself, but I’m not eager on having a conversation with my manager about why I want to keep wearing my old tag.

    1. LGC*

      So wait – hold on, so the problem is that the pronouns that you use at work don’t match up to the pronouns you use outside of work? I just want to make sure that I follow here. (I was a little confused.)

      Are you NB at work? It doesn’t sound like you are, otherwise, I’d just say to put “ask me!” on your tag.

        1. LGC*

          Your original post was fine – I just got a little mixed up when I first read your post! I wanted to make sure that I was reading it correctly.

          Honestly, if I were you (and in full disclosure, I’m gender-conforming), I’d probably ask about the pronouns, if you could leave off the pronouns, and if that’s not an option, then just put the pronouns that you normally use at work. It sounds like your job would likely support you regardless of your choice, but it also sounds like you don’t want to discuss your gender identity at work.

          I’m wavering a bit because people might wonder why you don’t want to share your pronouns, which might end up putting more pressure on you to out yourself (or to be outed). But I think it’s a low-enough risk compared to the alternative of not asking for what you want and identifying in a way that doesn’t feel true to you. Plus, they’re doing a diversity initiative – and part of the LGBTQIA+ spectrum is people who would rather keep their identities private. They might not have thought of your case specifically (although they should have), but they should respect it.

    2. Imtheone*

      Do what you are comfortable with at work. If, in time, your feelings change, you can share the pronouns you use in you private life at work.

    3. valentine*

      You can ask your manager not to display pronouns on behalf of colleagues in general.

      Would they/them work for you? If anyone makes a big deal out of that, you can say they’re both defeating the purpose and making it punitive.

  142. ExitInterviewQuestion*

    A few months ago my company did something that I considered unethical and went against my values (this was something they did legally just not something I agree with)

    Since then the company has been working to update its procedures so something like this doesnt happen again, but it still doesnt sit right with me, so I started actively looking for work outside my company. I also let my manager know that I felt uncomfortable with it and that I would be looking for a new job

    Recently I accepted a new job and I am wondering if I should mention it in my exit interview with HR that this was my reason for leaving, or should I just leave it?

    1. Dream Jobbed*

      I would mention it IF 1.) you know you might be burning bridges and that’s ok (i.e. your manager will always give you a good reference) and 2.) you can frame it in such a way that they can fix it/make sure it doesn’t happen again.

      Good luck with the new job and good for you for upholding your morals!

      1. ExitInterviewQuestion*

        Thanks :)
        I am confident my manager would give me a good reference even if I mention this in an interview. The company is trying to change their policies going forward but its a bit of a long process. I have had a few people at work say that I should stay around to try and help the company fix it but I feel like there isn’t a lot I can do (its not my area) but I do hope the company is moving to change it.

  143. Jenny*

    I work in marketing at a nonprofit in New York City. While I love the work, the pay hasn’t been where I need it to be pretty much since I started. A year ago at my annual review, after being with the company for two years, my direct supervisor informed me that she wouldn’t be able to promise a raise or promotion for up to two years, due to the unpredictability of the funding streams we get. Additionally, there were other “reasons” that a promotion couldn’t happen–mostly due to inconsistently enforced company policies about when you can get a promotion to the next level. I began my job search but didn’t get any bites.

    Flash forward to the pandemic, and my job responsibilities greatly increased and my performance remained strong and got the attention of a lot of my colleagues outside of our department. To my utter surprise, my boss’s boss told me back in June that she had put in for a promotion and a raise for me. She couldn’t guarantee that I would get it but wanted to know that she saw all my hard work. Great!, I thought. Flash forward again to now. I’ve just had my annual review again and my direct supervisor told me she didn’t have any update on my promotion, and still couldn’t guarantee it because of company policy and company financials but she would follow up. Just this weekend, I was told about a job opportunity from a friend. This friend is friends with the hiring manager, and spoke directly with the hiring manager who led me to believe I would be all-but-offered the job if I submitted an application. I know I’m thinking ahead to “what if I get this offer,” but I have to wonder if it is premature to leave my current job before I have the final word on the promotion when good possibilities come along?

      1. Jenny*

        Yeah, that’s what I’ve gotten from family and friends I talked to. And you don’t think I should hold out for final word for promotion? I know this is my guilt coming through…

      2. Dream Jobbed*

        Agreed – it’s taken them forever to recognize your value – maybe! – and it doesn’t sound like even that will bring you up to market.

        Make sure you know your value and get it in the new position! And good luck!

    2. valentine*

      It’s worth following up with boss’ boss, the source of the good news, but if you’re excited about the new job and it pays better, go for it. The promotion is in limbo. You don’t have to be.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      Go for it. You don’t have the job until you start your first day, IMO. Worst case new job doesn’t materialize and you’re stuck at the non-profit. Better to have tried and than to not have tried at all!

  144. agnes*

    my good news this week is that I started a new job within my current organization and it went really well!

  145. HasUserName*

    Question: Would it look bad if I took the full allotted amount of maternity+parental leave when a colleague who was hired at exactly the same time as me is only taking 1/3 of the time allowed?
    Context:
    Time allowed: 12-18 months (most choose 12)
    Colleague: 4 months
    Me: wants 14 months ideally but will probably have to settle for 12 for financial reasons
    Boss: is supportive of family and parental leave, has not balked in the past at supporting this.

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