open thread – September 18-19, 2020

by Alison Green on September 18, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Rose Dawson*

    I’m on the verge of resigning from my job with nothing lined up. I recently took on my old boss’s work, while maintaining my previous workload. It’s too much for one person, and to make matters worse I am expected to work at the same salary and without a promotion. I asked for both and was waved off. My new boss is also a micromanager. I dread going to work every morning, and I used to actually like my job! I have voiced additional concerns, which have been brushed off. Is it crazy to leave a job right now without having applied anywhere else? I have a decent cushion and could go at least 6 months without an income, with no lifestyle changes. I just don’t know how much longer I can do this job, it’s only been 2 months and I’m already burnt out. Advice appreciated, particularly from other who have been in this situation!

    1. Aquawoman*

      Can you dial it down while ramping up your job search? E.g. prioritize, do the higher priority things and then stop after 40 hours of work?

        1. CatCat*

          Yeah, it’s ridiculous how Rose Dawson is being treated. Do what you can in a reasonable time and let the other balls drop. Bosses aren’t going to take it seriously until it beomes a problem for them. And if you get fired for being unable to manage an unmanageable workload? Could be a blessing! Free from the job, time to job search, and most likely eligible for UI benefits.

          1. Krabby*

            Plus it sounds like you could probably just use your old manager as a reference and not worry about burning that bridge.

        2. Adam Schiff*

          +1

          I would tell you to focus as much of your energy as possible on job searching as opposed to work. I’m sorry they are treating you this way.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Agree – if you’re on the verge of quitting anyway, consider this a last ditch effort to manage what you can and avoid burnout while you arrange for a better position. Use the standard AAM approach of “I have tasks X, Y, and Z – I can accomplish two of the three, which two should I prioritize?” format to explain that your time and effort is not limitless.

        Remind yourself that even if you were able to do it all, they’d never have incentive to hire someone else OR give you your earned raise/promotion. So if they come back with “No, find a way to do it all” you know it’s a lost cause.

      3. Rose Dawson*

        I started doing this last week, but I am a people pleaser and get so much pressure to do things on insane timelines that even after stopping work, I spend the rest of the day thinking about how Greg wanted XYZ by tomorrow and I haven’t even started on it. I think part of the issue is that is prioritizing is non-existent at my company (which is one the other concerns I voiced that was brushed off). When I ask what’s the most important, the answer is “everything” or “if you work more hours, is there really no way this can get done on [insane timeline]”

        1. Morticia*

          The answer to that last is no, there is no way because I am working all the hours I can already.*
          * The “you money-grubbing assholes” should probably be silent.

          1. Rose Dawson*

            They had the nerve to say that “maybe if you worked after hours to get this stuff done, we can talk about a bonus.” That was the moment I decided not to work a minute over 40 hours a week for them ever again. Money-grubbing assholes hits the nail on the head

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Bonus? You mean like a one time thing? After you asked for a promotion and a raise? wth.

              They will miss you when you are gone.

            2. Working Hypothesis*

              Okay, so now you know what’s the worst thing that they’re prepared to do if you DON’T work after hours: not give you a bonus! Which doesn’t matter a whole lot because you’re planning to leave this job anyhow, and you won’t be around to get the bonus either way. So do your 40 hours and go home and try your best to erase work from your mind while you’re off, because you don’t need to please these people, and it doesn’t matter a damn what “Greg wants.” If Greg wants it, he can make a space for it within your 40 hours of work (or, if Greg isn’t in a position to control that, he can take it up with those who are). But either way, it is not and should not be YOUR problem to figure out… it’s the problem of the people who are trying to wedge more than 40 hours of work into a 40-hour-shaped hole that you haven’t the slightest obligation whatsoever to expand by one single minute.

        2. AY*

          I hope you can continue to work on setting boundaries and sticking to them during whatever time you have left at your job. The more you’re able to say “I’m not able to work after hours tonight,” the easier it will get! For the most part, work is never going to set or enforce any boundaries with you. If you want them, you have to set them and stick to them.

          1. Rose Dawson*

            It’s definitely something I struggle with, but fortunately as the requests are getting more absurd, it’s getting easier to shut them down!

            1. Glitsy Gus*

              This is good! Consider this time practice or therapy or something. Viewing it as a temporary experiment while you start looking for a new job might even help with the stress a bit. Especially because, when you find a new job, you want to be able to keep these healthy boundaries you’re learning to enforce, even in a new, healthier job.

              I have people pleasing and perfectionist tendencies too, so I get how hard it is to set those boundaries; but remember that, while it’s uncomfortable now, it’ll be much to your benefit down the road.

            2. Idril Celebrindal*

              Rose, I don’t know if you’re still reading this, but it might help to look at it as in a way they are helping you with a skill you have been wanting to work on. You are learning how to let go of the people-pleasing and focus on boundaries.

              I also struggle with people-pleasing, and I have a boss who can’t make up her mind, gives contradictory instructions, and then gets mad when we don’t follow the instruction flavor of the week that she didn’t tell us about. I finally got to the point where I could just say to myself, “I’m going the best I can, there is no pleasing her, I’m not going to worry about her getting mad. I’ll just keep doing my best and know that is good enough even if she never sees it.”

              Something I found is that I can channel that same feeling into other parts of my life and it had really helped me let go of a lot of the people-pleasing. Not nearly as bad a situation as yours, and I hope you get out soon, but maybe in the meantime it will help when they start being ridiculous to look at them and think, “You are making it so easy to not want to please you, thank you for helping me grow in this area.”

        3. Kathenus*

          As others have said look at this as an opportunity to work on standing up to your people-pleasing drive, practice setting boundaries, and holding firm. Since you’re considering resigning, you have nothing to lose by trying this and might develop a new, more comfortable skill set in this area whether you stay long term in this job or not. Good luck!

        4. The Sky Isn't Falling*

          As a people pleaser, you have to reprogram your brain that you are the most important “people” to please! Continue to make the boss choose priorities, and if he won’t, send an email saying “since I didn’t get an answer to what to prioritize, this is the order I’ll be doing these tasks in.”

    2. But There is a Me in Team*

      I think a big factor is where you live. How is your local economy? Do you know other people who are job searching and how is it going for them? To my shock, our local economy has had no effect from COVID (at least not on white collar jobs.) Good luck Rose!

      1. Rose Dawson*

        I live in a large metro area on the East Coast with an insane COL, but fortunately a not too ravaged job market. I know other people who have searched and found things in 2-4 months.

        1. A Thought*

          If you think you can find a job quickly, one way to think about it is to look while you are still employed and know in the back of your head you only have to put up with this job for 2 – 4 more months! (And then if it stretches longer than that, at least you are not in the situation where you are running out of savings with nothing lined up.) Personally I think I have a much easier time prioritizing (aka disappointing people) when I mentally have one foot out the door.

        2. CBH*

          Rose, is there a way you could get temporary work through a placement agency while searching for a job that suits your experiences. That way you can have a paycheck during the 2-4 months, escape a horrid environment. It would also give you some time to recharge. If you can do that and find a way to pay for health insurance/ bills then I’d say go for it. I know that advice is not highly recommended but I’ve learned the last few months that mental well being is an important part in life.

        3. Working Hypothesis*

          It sounds like you’re in a *great* position to set your own terms for the job you have right now, while you look for something else. Since you’re pretty sure you could get another job before your cushion ran out if you walked away today, you can afford to say no and No and NO again to the unreasonable requests, and just leave the consequences in *their* laps to handle. Worst thing that happens: you get fired, and that’s not an impossible thing for you to handle at the moment. (It’s also very unlikely, because in a halfway decent job market they’re probably very much aware that they couldn’t replace you at anything near your current salary.)

          I recommend keeping the job while you search, but also making a conscious choice not to do one thing more than you can fit comfortably into a 40 hour workweek by working at a reasonable pace. No extra hours, no breakneck speed, no trying extra hard to find a way… just do your job, professionally and appropriately and not one inch beyond that, and whatever doesn’t fall within those limits is somebody else’s problem to handle.

          If they fire you, you’re not really worse off than if you quit now (and maybe better, of you can collect unemployment, which you might depending on the official reason for the firing); and if they don’t, you probably have a new job within a few months *without* having to eat into your cushion. And either way, you are not doing the insane workload. It’s just not your problem.

          Keep reminding yourself: Not Your Problem.

    3. Pepperwood*

      Oh man, you have my sympathies, that sounds really challenging and not sustainable, to be honest. It sounds like you’d really need to start updating that resume and move on – speaking from experience here. If they’re brushing off your very valid concerns and requests, they’re telling you what you need to know about how they see your value there.

      Given the craziness of the job market right now and in the future, unless you really have the financial cushion to do so, I’d at least try to find something else first before leaving. I totally get that desperation of just wanting to leave asap though – have you tried looking into your EAP for therapy services? That’s what I did and it kinda took me hearing from someone else that the burnout I was feeling was not only valid, but was starting to impact my health and would be bad news for me long term. Plus I’ve gotten some helpful coping strategies in the interim to maintain my sanity and take my time back.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          We can’t please people who refuse to be pleased. It’s nice of you to keep hoping they are better people than what they are, but it’s okay to believe them when they show you who they are.

    4. Important Moi*

      I wish you luck however you decide to handle this. I’ve made the decision to for work while staying on the job. I’ve wondered many days is this the right answer.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      I admit the economy was better when I did the same thing back in 2003, but I can tell you it was the best thing I ever did. My old job was making me sick with anxiety. I had applied in a few places, but had had no luck, but decided to quit anyway. I didn’t have as much of a financial cushion as you have, but I started temping so I wouldn’t deplete my savings as quickly, which led to me finding the job that has become a career.

      1. Rose Dawson*

        Appreciate hearing from someone who’s done it! I can relate to being sick with anxiety – my hair is falling out and I’m having panic attacks, which is why I don’t want to stick it out. I will look into temping, might be a good way to stretch my savings.

        1. A Thought*

          I commented above — but adding in here that (while I agree with my earlier sentiment that ideally you’d have something lined up) this level of anxiety changes it for me… you have to protect your mental health and if you are at that tipping point then I think the calculus changes. (As long as you are realistic about the stress levels of being unemployed – since that is legitimately super hard too).

          1. Rose Dawson*

            Excellent points here – it is a good question as to whether my mental health would be better if I was unemployed. I think it would be better at first, but might be hard as things stretched on

            1. WellRed*

              It’s late but I’m commenting: with this new information I’d make plans to exit quickly and soon. Maybe you cut some living expenses or temp to stretch out savings but yeah, physical stress symptoms means time to go.

        2. Box of Kittens*

          Bless your heart, genuinely! Given the physical ways this stress is manifesting, and the fact that you have savings and insurance, my vote is quit. Good luck to you in finding something else soon, and getting your mental health back!

        3. HermioneMe*

          Does your company have paid sick leave? Take it. Does your state have paid disability leave? Go out on stress disability which may fall under Workers Compensation? Are you eligible for FMLA? Use it. If they fire you for that, lawsuit. (And I’m not generally a lawsuit type person.)

          At the very least, if they have to fill in to do at least some of your job duties, maybe (doubtful but just maybe) they’ll realize what your your work load truly is and do something about it. Or they may leave all the work for when you come back. If you come back – maybe you’ll find a job while you are off work!

          1. Rose Dawson*

            We do have paid sick leave, but it’s unlimited – sounds great in theory…in reality it means 0 days unless you’re in the hospital. I will look into stress disability and FMLA – I don’t have any history of anxiety so I’m not sure if I qualify. Worst case, I have some PTO I could try to use, if they’ll let me take it.

            1. Rachel in NYC*

              I don’t know if you’d qualify any way but my mom was able to take FMLA for a couple of months because I was sick. Basically she got so stressed between me and her work and everything that she was ready to quit- at the point, her boss was ready to agree to FMLA just to increase the odds that she’d last at the job.

              It made a difference for my mom- she lasted there another 3 years once she came back from FMLA.

            2. yup yup*

              If you are planning to quit anyway, take your sick time. Call in on Monday, and then again every day that week. The rest of the time turn off your laptop and your phone and ignore them. You are OUT SICK and using your earned time off.

              After a week of them being without you, you will be rested and they will understand just how much they need you. You’ll be in a much better position.

              And they cannot stop you from taking sick time. What are they gonna do, drive to your house and force you to start working?

              1. Working Hypothesis*

                Agreed. It’s officially in your benefits package; they can’t just decide you don’t get it anymore. And sick time isn’t like vacation; you don’t have to apply for it and wait for approval. You just call in and say “I’m sick so I won’t be in today.” They won’t like it. So what? You don’t like the way they’ve been treating you either.

                After you’ve been out a week, both of the things Yup Yup said she likely to happen — you’ll be better rested and they’ll understand just how much they need you — but there’s likely to be a third thing as well. Pay attention to how you feel on going back in after your sick week is up. If you’ve been doing pretty well after the rest period and then all of a sudden you’re exhausted and sick to your stomach and showing all your usual stress tells just at the thought of returning, you’ll know it’s probably worth quitting without something else lined up in order to get away from this place. If it’s just a matter of “Well, this is not gonna be fun, but I feel stronger now and I think I can handle it for a while,” then you’ll know that you can probably stick it out while looking for another job, so long as you manage your workload (by yourself, because nobody else is obviously gonna) and take occasional time off.

            3. Glitsy Gus*

              Yeah, my company tried to go to “unlimited” PTO and didn’t understand why most of us told the C-Suite to get lost (especially the CA office, where, due to CA being pretty Pro-Labor they have to pay out accrued PTO or let it roll over). What you just said there is exactly, why. More often than not, unlimited PTO ends up becoming zero PTO.

            4. HermioneMe*

              I don’t think you necessarily need to previously have had anxiety and stress…you have it now and it’s work related. See your doctor. Tell him it’s work related just in case it’s covered by workers compensation. If it is then you go through your employer’s workers compensation to get treatment.

        4. Amaranth*

          Rose Dawson I let a toxic workplace get me to the same point. You should not be physically ill over going to work. You deserve better. Also, in my case I basically had PTSD and needed a few weeks to decompress, reset, and my hair to stop falling out, so if you have the capability of taking a couple weeks off between jobs it might be something to seriously consider.

        5. Not So NewReader*

          Left unaddressed these symptoms can get even worse. BTDT.

          RD, even if you just take a part time job until you find your next gig, that would be a huge help for your setting.
          Additionally, you can try to reduce some of your household expenses temporarily. That might work into some encouraging feelings for you. When my home setting changed here the first thing I did was look at ways of reducing my expenses. It made me feel like I was helping myself along. I was pretty proud of my gains and I decided it was my new life habit. So I kept reducing things and I have managed to cut my monthly bills by around $1k. Now I wonder what I spent that money on….

    6. I'm just here for the cats!*

      One thing I would consider is your benefits. You say you have enough saved for 6 months. Does that include health I Durance. I’d hate to have someone not have insurance durring this time.

      1. Rose Dawson*

        My husband’s company offers better insurance, so we are on their plan. Our rainy day fund would stretch 6 months if both of us lost our jobs, but we didn’t account for health insurance. We’ll have to discuss, so thank you for bringing this up! My husband’s job seems fairly secure, but if this has taught me anything, a lot can change in a job in 2 months

    8. Artemesia*

      I would give it three months while you aggressively job search. This is a tough time to be without a future and you will have a much better idea if you start your search what the odds are. My spouse and I have had job searches take 6 mos in good times — we always succeeded but once you get past entry level work, finding the right fit is always more and more challenging.

      Look at your job and begin doing what you can do with a reasonable time commitment, and let your boss know your priorities and what will fall off the table. With the time you free up. get your materials in A1 condition and line up potential references and begin an aggressive search.

      The worst that can happen is you will be let go and collect unemployment while you search. Don’t let go of job and benefits until you have at least got your search underway.

    9. Solar*

      There was a recent letter on here about having too much responsibility given the expectations of the role. I’d encourage you to push back on your manager. I think in that other letter, the employee had written something to the effect of “I cannot take the extra workload of X, I am going to resume focusing on the workload appropriate to my role Y”. If you’re about to quit anyway, what have you got to lose?

      I’ve quit without a job lined up before. The key was that I had saved enough money to go quite some time without a job. Especially with COVID, I wouldn’t plan on quitting without being able to live at least a year off savings. I know that’s extreme, but pandemics are extreme, and we don’t know what the future will hold.

      Definitely start looking ASAP, regardless.

      1. Vermont Green*

        I think the above letter made a great point when she mentioned “writing” your bosses about the problem. Even if it’s just an email, they can’t brush it off as easily as a spoken request. Tell them how many hours you are going to work, and stick with that.

        Then, if you do get fired for whatever reasons they come up with, you have documentation of the situation.

    10. Roza*

      Oh no — hang in there! Agree with the suggestions to crush your inner people pleaser, set boundaries, and get out as soon as you can. Or just leave for the sake of your health.

      I’m actually in a similar situation and have to fight the urge not to rage-quit because I’m having a baby in a month, and this now awful understaffed job does provide decent paid parental leave (I’m in the US, so that’s rare). That said, it’s hard not to REALLY resent working 12-hour days and weekends when I’m already exhausted, and the people responsible for the mass exodus that left us understaffed are unaffected

      1. Amaranth*

        I know you’ll be incredibly busy but maybe you can carve some time in those 12 weeks to job search and then you’d never have to return. Enjoy your new baby! :)

    11. Anonymous Hippo*

      My advice is to stop doing it all.

      If you are already at the point of quitting without another job, you are already at the point of ultimatum. Just tell them you can only do “so” much anymore, and then just stop. If they bring you somehting new, always answer with, “ok, but then this or this has to go, let me know which”. You can always quit later.

    12. Office Plant*

      I vote for staying at your job while you keep searching. I’m currently unemployed and job-hunting, and it’s not fun. If you do end up quitting before you get something full-time, there’s no harm in doing some part-time/gig work to help the savings last longer.

    13. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      If you can hang in there while searching, I would recommend doing so. From the people pleaser perspective, start everyday reminding yourself that you are not staying here long term and you do not need to care what these people think or even want from you. Do your contracted hours and nothing more. They will either get the message and come running to you (which you can leverage to get a better working environment and stay if you want), be jerks, but it won’t matter (remember mentally repeat “I don’t care because I am leaving”) or they may fire you (doubtful, they need someone to do the jobs, but in truth, besides the temporary sting of them breaking up with you instead of you breaking up with them; do you care?).

      Bottom line, they don’t care about you, so don’t care about them! Good luck on the search!

  2. Himbizz*

    I work in digital communications for a US-based nonprofit. Looking to the future, after we have a Covid vaccine and things are more normal, I’d like to ask my boss if I can be a fulltime remote worker — from overseas. If I can’t convert my entire position to remote, if they would be willing to retain me as a consultant for key, regular tasks from overseas. Seeking feedback from the AAM community on the best way to approach having this conversation with my boss.

    1. pandas as pd*

      Honestly the overseas part may be harder than the remote part: I know there are special tax considerations for employing people over seas, and many organizations do not support that at all. Doing a bit of background research (does anyone else at your org work remotely? is anyone over seas? can you have a private conversation with HR before bringing this up to your boss?) might set you up for success!

    2. Ali G*

      Most companies in the US, especially non-profits won’t be able to afford staff in another country. They might be willing to keep you as a contractor, but probably not full time. I work for a NP in the US and I had a staff person in Latin America and it cost us over double his regular salary to conform to all the loopholes to employ him.

    3. Himbizz*

      Just to add some background, remote overseas staff is not unprecedented for my org as we have several overseas staff. My org is in the field of international development. Overseas staff are usually on the program side of things. What makes me different is I am in the operations support side of things. Most operations positions are US based

      1. AP.*

        Would you be living in the same country as the other overseas staff? See my response below about possibly needing to have a legal entity for employees in the country of hire. If the legal issues have already been worked out then it’s an easier conversation.

        If you already know someone on the overseas staff, I would start the conversation with them and ask them about the technicalities of how they get paid and the entity that they work for.

        1. Himbizz*

          Thanks for these insights! I never thought about these legal hurdles and it is good to know these things to inform my approach. There are several staff in the same region (SE Asia) but I won’t be in the same country as any of them. It looks like my best bet would be try to be an overseas contractor.

          1. AP.*

            It really depends on the laws of the local country. Some do have workarounds which would allow you to still be employed by the U.S. entity. You’d really need to do some research. You may want to try the expat forums for your country as many there would have experience with this kind of thing.

          2. Amaranth*

            Also, are there advantages to the company in having operations staff overseas? Does your job intersect with the international employees? If someone has been handling everything remotely from the U.S. maybe you could make a case for handling all the international employees “locally”.

    4. AP.*

      It can be very tricky for the US-based organizations to have foreign employees. They will need to comply with all the laws of both the U.S. as well as the country you are based in. This often means setting up a legal entity in the other country which is beyond the ability of many small nonprofits. At the very least they’d significant legal guidance on how to proceed.

      Hiring you as a consultant may be easier, assuming that you are really doing the work of a contractor rather than an employee according to the laws of both the U.S. and your country. But again, the nonprofit would need to consult a lawyer who specializes in cross-border hiring issues.

      One other point: You’ll be getting paid in dollars but spending in the local currency. Over time currency fluctuations can raise or lower your salary by 25% or more. It may work out in your favor, but it just as easily may not.

      1. Hiring Mgr*

        Could you elaborate on the last part? I’m not sure what currency would have to do with it – when I worked for a non-US co while living in the US, I was paid in US dollars… couldn’t the OP just get paid in whatever the currency of the new country is? (there would have to be a one-time conversion I suppose…but after that ?)

        1. Himbizz*

          OP here. If I get paid in dollars that would be a big deal. Salaries for fulltime jobs are very low in my home country compared to US rates. If I can get a gig paying dollars at US rates that will go a long way considering lower cost of living over there

          1. TechWorker*

            And if you get paid in dollars your paycheck (in local currency) will jump around each month. That’s worth considering too. (The pay rate and the currency are also I guess not fully intertwined, they could agree to pay you a suitable rate for the area, but still pay in dollars, or (less likely but maybe not impossible?) pay you the normal US rate but agree to pay x amount in the local currency.

        2. AP.*

          Well it really depends. If they are working as a contractor for a U.S. based organization they would probably be getting paid in dollars not the local currency.

          As a local employee they would probably get paid in the local currency. However even in that case all that’s happening is that the currency risk (or benefit) is being transferred from the employee to the nonprofit, since the nonprofit would be fundraising in dollars and paying salary in the local currency. So a drop in the dollar is effectively a large pay increase to the employee which the nonprofit is on the hook for.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!*

      There are so many things to consider. Yes this would be hard if your company is not already based in the country your working from. This would probably be really hard too if the country had specific company taxes and labor laws that could affect your U.S (I assume your in US) based co workers. Think of bank holidays in one country not matching up with another. And vice versa. Would you be the only one working on labor day? Although if your a consultant that would maybe make a difference.

    6. Bluesheart*

      I think the biggest issue will be the taxes, some of our people at the beginning of COVID went back home in other countries, we didn’t think it would go on for so long, we are now having discussions that they either need to come back or quit. Because we don’t have offices based in their countries and we are reaching the limit allowed for them work in that country without tax issues for us.

    7. NW Mossy*

      One other thing to consider: time zones. If all the people you routinely need to communicate with are on the other side of the world, it puts you in a real bind for meetings. As the only person with that constraint, you’ll likely get pressure to take calls at unpleasant times (like the middle of the night) because the time falls into everyone else’s workday.

      Some people are totally cool with effectively working graveyard, but if you’re not used to it, it can be really tough to adjust. When we stood up some outsourcing in the Philippines a few years ago, the biggest complaint from US-based folks who traveled there to help was having to stay on US time while working.

      1. Himbizz*

        Timezones — I hear you! Yes, this will be challenging, depending on the task and the necessity to go on meetings or collaborate and turnaround times for projects

        1. TechWorker*

          Is there any working day overlap? If there is ‘none’ I would say it’s gonna be really tough and as you’re the only one overseas you are likely to end up working out of hours.

          If there is some overlap, think about how that’s likely gonna affect you – maybe you’re ok with sometimes joining 7am meetings, but not ok with regularly joining 9pm ones.. :)

        2. Ariadne Oliver*

          I worked in NE Asia for 2. 5 years with my company based on the US East Coast. I could count on working nights two days out of five so I could attend meetings and talk to people real time. That was no fun and really affected my mental and physical well being.

    8. Nada*

      Do you have citizenship in the overseas country? If not, you definitely need to look into immigration requirements before thinking about anything else.

    9. Anonforthis*

      Hi there – agree you may want to talk to staff outside the U.S. and determine what their arrangements are. I would put together a proposal for your boss to consider (i.e. timezones, how to stay in touch, how you could do your job the same or better in your market of choice, etc.), but I would make it clear you understand that the real details will have to be looked at through HR and legal. A few things to consider – 1) if you are a US citizen or green card holder, your income earned overseas will be eligible for US taxes in the same way it is while living in the states, 2) biggest factor is the obligations of the country to which you are moving. To give you a sense, we have several international employees, and generally have to pay 1.5x their salary because of separation/retirement/health obligations required by the governments in countries where they are based, 3) we have done a survey of other INGOs, and unless it is the United Nations, nearly all pay salaries commiserate with local pay scales, meaning if there is a lower COL in your destination country, your salary could decrease significantly, 4) most INGOs use PEOs, which mean your employment is not with the organization directly, but with an in-country payroll provider that specializes in tax/payroll issues in that country. There is a fee for an employer to engage a PEO (usually a first time engagement in a new country, and then a cost per employee). Another thing to consider if you would like to go the contracting route, is that responsibilities have to be consistent with independent contractor requirements, which are generally much broader scale and time bound than those of an on-going employee (this has to be true for both US and destination country). If the SOW is written more like an employee responsibility, and the “contractor” does not have other clients, many organizations’ legal teams will raise a flag because if the host country views the contractor as an employee, the organization could be on the hook for taxes. In general, we only pay PEOs in US dollars because we do not want to have currency hedging issues on our financials. Hope this is helpful.

      1. AP.*

        [i]1) if you are a US citizen or green card holder, your income earned overseas will be eligible for US taxes in the same way it is while living in the states[/i]
        The first $100K of foreign earned income can generally be excluded from your U.S. taxes if you are living abroad. Also, there may be treaties between the U.S. and the other country which would affect taxation in both locales.

        1. Anonforthis*

          Agreed. I may have mis-read but assumed that the poster was not relocating to Europe but If that is the case treaties may affect taxation. Thanks for adding that.

    10. The Assistant*

      Hey OP chiming in SUPER late here. We recently hired a FTE living abroad. The only reason it worked were the following considerations:
      1. She is a US citizen
      2. She has a US bank account and is paid in dollars
      3. She has a permanent address (PO Box/relative with home) in the US

      We are not set up to sponsor H-1Bs or employ folks outside the US, but that was enough to not spin up another in-country office for just her. I think if you could think through those three things, you could pull this off.

  3. Resume helper*

    Alison thought you all might have some ideas for me about how to deal with classified info on a resume!

    I help people put resumes together as a small part of my job. I occasionally encounter job seekers whose previous experience required high security clearance, and the details of the projects they worked on are classified information. I tell them to just do their best to get as specific as they legally/ethically can, but this is easy to say and hard to do. Say they knitted a top-secret turtleneck sweater, for example — if the tricky part was the tight circle around the neckline (or something — I know nothing about knitting), it’s going to be tough for them to name their accomplishment without also naming the sweater.

    These people aren’t necessarily seeking jobs that all have the same high level of confidentiality, so the way they write about this experience needs to be legible to all of us normals.

    Does anybody have any experience with this, or ideas I could offer these resume writers?

    1. Jamie*

      I personally have not had experience with this, but many of my friends have. I haven’t seen their resumes, but I can tell you how they speak about their jobs with me. They boil it down to the absolute simplest form of the task. For example, they can talk about “circular stitching” without revealing exactly what they are working on. People might be able to guess what they worked on, if they have knowledge of the industry, but that detail doesn’t alone reveal what they did if you have no other knowledge. Alternately, framing this in terms of accomplishments might be really helpful here. “Increased safety factor on top secret project from 3x to 4x by changing the material without increasing the size of top secret project” still says what they did, without giving any clear information. Hope this helps.

    2. Lady Heather*

      Your clients (?) may be able to share a part of their accomplishment without context, such as “Did work on turtleneck sweater” or “Tightened neckline circle on knitting project” or “Improved safety features of winterwear collection”, depending either on what part they are allowed to share, or on what part of the experience is most relevant regarding the application.

      The employer may also have an office that deals with classified information in publications – if an ex-CIA agent wants to publish a book about their experiences, someone in the CIA will read the book to make sure there is nothing in there that shouldn’t be. (This gives them time to quietly dispose of the auth – oh, wait, I am not allowed to talk about that.)

      1. Resume helper*

        Yes, good point! I had kind of guessed something like that might exist and encouraged them to go ask someone, but I don’t think it was very compelling advice because I didn’t have a clear example like the one you mention in mind. Phrasing it a little more concretely will help a lot.

        1. Lady Heather*

          If the org has an ethics office, that’s probably a good place to start. Even if they’re not the right office to handle this, they probably know who would be.

          (Or it turns out there is no protocol for this situation, just bureaucracy that can only be navigated with a protocol..)

    3. Summersun*

      Dated example, but my dad went through this because he got all his electrical engineering training during his time in military intelligence in Vietnam instead of attending college. He was able to explain what kind of things he was capable of doing, without explicitly stating things he had done.

      So, review the job duties in the ad, and match them up. “I can read and troubleshoot electrical diagrams, work with ABC circuits, and rewire Widgets in half the time of a standard employee.”

    4. Nesprin*

      Same as dealing with NDAs- you give generalities when you have to, focus on your own accomplishments and metrics of success.
      For example, “as part of major classified knitting effort, developed new stitch which lead to 80% improvements in stitch evenness”
      “developed process which lead to 80% improvements in stitch evenness, receiving rave reviews from stakeholders”

    5. designbot*

      I think it’s important to know the norms of the field there. In architecture for example, we all have NDAs but there’s an understanding that they have different motivations and different levels of secrecy. For example, my resume lists projects like “Confidential Technology HQ” and I can show images of it in passing, like show in a portfolio that I don’t leave behind but I would never distribute images of it, and as soon as you see you know what it is. Often these are projects that are confidential only until the client has gotten a chance to handle the media release the way they want, so I periodically search the web and see if it’s out there and if it is I can be more forthright. But some of my colleagues who work with high end residences for example, can not only not name their clients, they can’t say what city it’s in, and the key thing they can never show is a floorplan, because the concern is the physical safety of the celebrity they’ve worked for. Sometimes these clients can be included in a more generic ‘client list’ format but not associated with a specific project because the issue again is safety as opposed to the appearance of authorship. We can always talk about for example, working with a city planner to achieve favorable interpretations of code requirements, or researching and putting together details working with a novel material, or even conducting workplace research that helps establish and resolve the needs of disparate groups within a client organization. Sometimes that means a person in the same field would indeed be able to identify the organization (my husband’s real estate friends like to see if they can guess what project I’m working on by my anonymized answers for example), but that’s generally accepted in this field.
      If you’re trying to help people whose fields they don’t know, maybe try asking them about how information is handled in other situations, how secretive their organization is about it. What do they put in their website, vs. what do they put on a brochure that has a smaller distribution, vs. what will they say to another client but not put in writing?

      1. Resume helper*

        This is extremely helpful, thank you.

        I have encouraged them to go back to whoever they worked with and ask someone there to explain the norms to them, but it was really just a guess because I didn’t even have an idea of what such norms might even look like. Your explanation here is really helping me imagine the possibilities more clearly.

    6. NRG*

      I have this sort of thing on the CV I used for applying to various technical jobs. I would list things like
      Maintained work scope of Top Secret yarn techniques within (relevant statute number) guidelines.
      And for a list of publications it would go:
      Authors, “Effects of Fiber Tension on Selected Garment Apertures (U)”

      The U is for a title of a document wherein _the title_ has been officially tagged as unclassified, not the contents.

      1. Resume helper*

        Oh, I like the idea of mentioning a specific standard rather than a specific project. I hadn’t thought of that.

    7. Bad Hare Day*

      I don’t have anything to add but I did want to say that as a knitter, your example is apt! Necklines are tricky :-)

    8. Tabby Baltimore*

      First off, your clients need to check with the person who oversees, or who oversaw, their work product(s), to find a point-of-contact within their agencies who does resume review. In some agencies, it’s a two-step review process, and one of the reviewers has to be a senior subject matter expert who can vouch that the resume content is fully unclassified before the resume holder is cleared for take-off/posting. If your client is a defense contractor, s/he should probably look at what their company handbook says about this kind of review.

      Second, I’d like to second the poster upthread who mentioned listing types of technical skills as one way around the problem. Another way is to offer the number and type of products the resume-holder produced in any given job’s timeframe (e.g., “delivered 40 briefings in a 6-month period,” or “wrote/coordinated a weekly threat summary for the team/office,” or multi-page articles, ad-hoc notes, response memos, etc.).

      What’s trickier is country affiliation. One writer I knew referenced “a major Middle East ally” in an unclassified product. Another example might be “a regional South American adversary,” or an even vaguer “South Asian power.”

      Regardless of what your clients choose–assuming they’re currently employed—I’m fairly sure they’re going to have to get approval from someone in their government agency before stepping off. Even if they’re contractors, I’m pretty sure they’ll still have to get government’s blessing, but this might vary from company to company. If they’re currently unemployed (regardless of whether they’re ex-government or ex-contractor), the only option I can think of is to go back to a point-of-contact at their old agency/employer and ask if s/he would be willing to take the resume and try to get it approved, but that is a real long-shot.

      1. Resume helper*

        Ah, your country affiliation examples are similarly helpful to the poster above. I don’t know the details of their past positions (other than that they’re generally pretty low-level), but if I can give them several examples of possibilities like this, it might help them figure out what questions they need to ask of their point of contact (I do mention on it, but I’ll lean on that part harder, too).

        Thanks!

    9. Emilitron*

      Every agency or business who deals with classified material has a department who deals with info for public release, and when things are going well, that office is also responsible for and helpful with approving information for emplyees resumes and CVs. It’s a pain in the butt to have to go through them, and in the non-optimal cases there are the questions of “how to get release approval if you haven’t told your boss you’re leaving”. But you should talk with your client about what resources her place of work has.

      2. Tabby Baltimore*

        The issue of needing an unclassified resume might be easier to navigate than it was before, since so many people are working from home. It’s plausible to send the resume to someone for review and say “I need an unclassified version of this for work now.”

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Interested in this one as this is a difficult one for me as well. Not with security clearance and government work as such, but having signed a valid NDA about “cutting edge” projects.

      Let’s say I am highly experienced in Technology X and Y (e.g. something with machine learning, although it isn’t that in reality) and applied X and Y to a project where it was a completely new application of that technology that no-one had attempted before (at least not known), was potentially patentable, required designing completely new algorithms to make technology X able to be used with the problem at hand, etc.

      In academic research circles, I suppose this would be kept under wraps with a view to publishing it as a PhD or other paper, but this is in a company: the details of the application of X to problem P will never be made public as such, just quietly integrated into the proprietary source code for the project.

      I could put wording around technology X and Y, something like “applied machine learning to recognise facial expressions of people on video with 98% accuracy”, “advanced knowledge in technology Y” but this doesn’t get across the “novel” nature, the unique step of ‘invention’ that differentiates knowing everything there is on a particular subject from ipso facto expanding the subject.

      1. Resume helper*

        Yes, this is very similar to the frustration the resume writers I work with express! And in their cases, they’re generally pretty low level, so they can’t really take credit for the Thing; it’s more about showing that they had rare firsthand exposure to the process of making Thing and even played a grunt role without screwing anything up.

    11. Arvolin*

      Reminds me of a job interview I had. I would be working on The Project, for The Client. They were able to tell me that The Project had hardware and software components. They were able to tell me what the necessary skills were for the job and some of the duties, and that if hired I’d be on side projects until my clearance came in and they were able to tell me what I was hired for. I didn’t get the job, and I wasn’t completely sure I wanted it, but it would have been interesting.

  4. Book Pony*

    I start my new job on Sept 28!

    It’s the library job I had been posting about before that had gotten bogged down in a hiring freeze. I was able to able to negotiate the starting salary (first time ever doing that), so it’ll be a 10% increase from my current pay. The commute is also shorter and it’s more in line with what I want to do with my life, so it’s just great from every direction.

    I’m just so happy to be able to leave my current job and its toxic environment. (My boss just recently was talking about condoms with me, unprompted and barely related to the conversation at hand.)

    Freedom! Woo!

    2. Lives in a Shoe*

      That is such a good feeling, and so many congratulations. And now that you’ve done one salary negotiation, you’re going to do so well at any future ones!

    6. alison*

      Congratulations!

      Idk why, but I feel like the commentariate and letter writers of this blog have an extremely high concentration of librarians relative to the rest of the internet…

      2. Thankful for AAM*

        Libraries can be particularly toxic. They can attract people who want to avoid ppl and work with books but the job is mostly working with ppl, if not patrons than with each other. And the path to management is to be a good librarian. That does not always (usually?) overlap with being good at managing people. Also, according to one webinar star and frequent presenter in the library world, we are mostly conflict avoidant people.

        1. Youth Services Librarian*

          yeah. weird combo of nonprofit and local government job, and it’s a toss-up whether or not you have access to human resources etc. plus, we like to share resources, so askamanager gets shared a LOT in library groups.

  5. Fluffernutter*

    I am currently on the board of an ERG at the company I work at. My role is board member at large so my responsibilities are only say participating in meetings/activities and filling in when needed, whether due to another board member’s absence or having too much on their plate. I volunteered to help cover the communication coordinator’s responsibilities while she is on leave. (She is unsure when her leave will end, it could be 2 weeks or 2 months.)

    How do I list this on my resume or should I skip that and just talk about it in cover letters? I have had to receive some training and have already done some work to take over temporarily and don’t want to discount that by not talking about it in my resume/cover letter. I think having a more concrete example of what I have done as a board member would be better than just saying I helped out in a vague sense. I also mentioned the uncertain leave time because if I end up only taking over for a couple weeks, can I even include that anywhere? I did still have more responsibilities for a period of time.

    Also, any suggestions as to how to list taking over another member’s role in the future on top of the communication coordinator? Just in case! Thanks! :)

    1. ThatGirl*

      I think it’s a little early to start mentioning the filling in part. You can certainly list somewhere that you’re an at-large board member if you’d like, but I’d wait until you’re at last a month or two in and actually have some accomplishments. It’s also more applicable if it’s giving you skills or accomplishments that are useful for a new job you’re applying for.

    2. Bad Hare Day*

      I would probably list it as a bullet point under your job description (maybe the last one?); something along the lines of “Serve on Llama Owners Employee Resource Group as an at-large board member; handled communications responsibilities while Communications Chair was on leave.”

    3. Solar*

      This may depend on where you’re applying. Some places, ERG roles are pros… and some places are less enlightened. I personally don’t include ERG work on my resume, but that may depend on how picky you can afford to be (or how anxious you are about the job search).

      If you do include it on the resume, I’d leave it as a lower item for that job, and list it “As ERG board member, accomplished X, Y, Z”

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Are you already listing the ERG board membership on your resume or do you just want to include the additional responsibilities but haven’t mentioned the general membership?

      Assuming it’s the former – I would list your normal responsibilities and an additional bullet point for (e.g.) “Deputized for communication coordinator when required including tasks x, y and z”

      If it’s the latter – presumably you want to introduce it as it’s relevant additional experience, so you could perhaps include it within your general company responsibilities “As a board member of the ERG, deputized for communication coordinator on tasks xyz in addition to typical tasks abc”

      On your last question – I don’t have suggestions of specific wording, but my intuition is saying you need to be careful about how you word this. Taking over one member’s role temporarily in case of absence is stepping up, putting the org’s needs at the front of your mind, etc. Taking over more than one role looks like a pattern, and someone reading this could well get an impression of “will Fluffernutter try to push out others in the future and take over their responsibilities and/or is Fluffernutter more concerned with other people’s tasks than their own?” both of which could come off negatively if you are not careful.

      Don’t get me wrong – I think that both could be presented positively! But you need the right wording.

      1. Fluffernutter*

        Based on the answers, maybe I didn’t make it clear the ERG is not part of my job. I have a separate role at my company that I am paid for. So I don’t think it should be listed under my job? It is also only a one year term.

        @Captain, it never crossed my mind that it could look like I’m trying to take over since my responsibility as member at large IS to take over in times of absence/business. Would that change your view of how careful I need to be?

        1. engr*

          Is it actually worth discussing ERG responsibilities? I lump my ERG involvement into a general “other activities” at the bottom and just put the ERG and whatever title I held (also where I put industry volunteering stuff, eg judging a K12 competition). Within my industry, being involved in an ERG is worth mentioning, but beyond that it’s really not useful.

  6. Resume Writing*

    Resume writing: tips and tricks for finding ROI when your job doesn’t have that sort of actionable metrics?

    My technical writing job is basically “write instructions that keep us from getting sued”. There’s no way to measure how successful I am at that, and even if there was, I wouldn’t be allowed to know the confidential details.

    My yearly goals are vague nonsense to fulfill the company-wide standard form, like “improve software skills”.

    1. Resume helper*

      This is kind of similar to my question above, which also has to do with how to write about confidential stuff on a resume.

      Can you say something about meeting all of your deadlines? As a person who used to be in a position to wrangle writers, that’s actually a bigger accomplishment than you might think. . . .

    2. Ducky*

      I’ve put things like how fast I was able to turn around certain kinds of documents, ability to reduce page counts without losing content, “distilled 80 pages of engineering documentation into an easy-to-understand 2-page guide,” and stuff like that and been successful with it.

    3. Lyudie*

      As a former tech writer, this is something writing teams struggle with a lot, it’s hard to quantify or apply metrics to writing. You can point to meeting deadlines as one thing, and if you do any sort of feedback forms or customer satisfaction surveys, you can mention getting good scores and acting on any feedback. Talking about working with SMEs or other cross-functional teams can show collaboration (and quality in a way, as you are having things reviewed for technical accuracy).

    4. Clever username goes here*

      Do you get audited at all? Can you emphasize how your job keeps your company in line with whatever applicable standards/regulations etc?

    5. Middle Manager*

      Is there a way to say something like “wrote 10 sets of instructions that led to no adverse legal action for a 1 year period”. Not my field, so not sure, but if the main take away is did you write well enough (and I’d assume research it thoroughly enough in advance of writing) that it doesn’t lead to lawsuits, then I’d be impressed that there were no or few lawsuits (whatever is standard for the field) that led to bad consequences.

    6. Pilcrow*

      Fellow tech writer here. I hear ya. Feels like screaming into the void at times.

      Regarding the ‘so we don’t get sued’ agenda, sometimes I just want to write, “keep your hands off the big spinning blade, nitwit!”

      These are areas I’ve touched on my own resume. Maybe some of these will apply to you?

      * Have you improved the documentation? This can reduce training time and/or help center calls. Can also reduce lawsuits if the previously buried ‘keep your hands off the big spinning blade’ warning is now prominent.

      * Have you presented difficult technical info in an easy to understand format? This reduces help center calls and/or training time. Can also improve quality in a production environment.

      * Have you worked on templates and presentation? Did you reorganize documents so they are easier to use? Again, can reduce help center calls and reduce training time.

      * Did you convert paper docs to an online system or CMS? Reduces costs, reduce help center calls, improve doc update timelines.

      * Did your ‘instructions to keep us from getting sued’ help bring a product into compliance with regulatory bodies and/or reduce lawsuits? Bringing docs up to standards (for example, FDA standards) is a big accomplishment. Reducing fines from HIPAA breaches would be another.

      Remember to save some samples (anonymized), especially before and afters. Tech writers are lucky in that we can show a concrete portfolio of work. Literal show, not tell.

    7. Wintergreen*

      I have no advise but wanted to commiserate. I too struggle with how to put accomplishments on my resume and my only real goal at work is too keep up with all the work (which I can do fairly easily). Most of what I have done, when distilled down enough for a resume, sounds unimpressively generic even when the accomplishments were somewhat impressive.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          Me too! I do health care work, and most of my job consists of taking people who are basically well and KEEPING them well. It’s really hard to translate that into a list of accomplishments! I’ve never put together a resume I felt really satisfied with. Fortunately, my industry doesn’t tend to take them quite as centrally as some… they want to see where you trained and how long you’ve been in practice and where you’ve worked before, and then they test you so they know for themselves what you can do. The lack of a good accomplishments list has never stopped me from getting a job, but I always keep thinking it will!

  7. CBH*

    I got into a topic of discussion with friends. I am hoping to hear (hopefully success but any advice) stories. About 12 years ago I worked with a great group of people. Today we range from ages 30-55. We were a small department that was the last to be laid off when the company closed. We formed a tight group. Despite the age differences we all get along well and are good friends professionally and personally.

    One group member is 46 years old. He has always wanted to start his own business. He is doing everything “right”. He has a business plan, research, contacts, etc. Like everyone else he also has a lot of commitments – wife, car loans, mortgage, kids college tution, family vacations etc. He is very good at budgeting and is not willing to go into debt starting this business. He’s at a point in life the last few years where he has been saving for this dream.

    Friend seemed a little (I don’t know) discouraged/ glum/ down, when he realized that in order to be financially stable to take on such a big adventure, he really couldn’t start this business until age 50-52. He isn’t looking to make millions, but would like to just use this as a better-than-average second income.

    We’ve tried to encourage him that it’s ok to start a business later in life. So I guess what I am asking AAM fans, what have been your experiences starting a business later in life?

    1. 867-5309*

      There are tons of online articles about being in their 50s+ starting their own companies. A quick search will pull them up.

      I copied this stat from an MSN article, “In fact, a study from the Census Bureau found that the majority of successful businesses were founded by people who are middle-aged. More specifically, a founder who is 50 years old is 2.8 times more likely to have a successful business than a person who is 25 years old.”

      A high percentage of people in my field go into consulting and freelance in their 50s and I know of at least half a dozen who were so successful the turned their independent gig into creating an agency that hired others.

      Also, I mean technically 50 is later in life but it’s not the same as someone being 50 many years ago when that was considered “old.” 50s is still quite young by today’s standards.

      Hope that helps. Good luck to your friend.

      1. CBH*

        Thank you for this info! My friend has worked very hard, responsible and successful. I think my friend through this business would already be up and started by the time they hit the big 5-0 and become a but glum with reality. We all say go for it. He has the know how and resources. In addition if he waits a few more years there really won’t be a huge impact in his lifestyle. I just want him to know that it’s not a “failure” to start a business later in life. I personally think it’s more of a success given he would have more experience. Thank you for the words of encouragment.

    2. LunaLena*

      Maybe it would help to see his age as an asset instead of “I won’t be able to do this for YEARS”? When he gets to start his business, he’ll have the money, experience, and contacts to start a *successful* business. Anyone can start a business (I’ve worked at a couple of small businesses where the owners were first-time business owners who grossly underestimated the amount of work needed, and it… was not good. For anyone.), but keeping it running and viable is a different story. And if he starts building his plans now with the end goal of starting when he’s 50-52, that gives him 4-6 years to solidify those assets and maybe start laying the foundations so he can hit the ground running when he takes the plunge. I guess I’m saying that he should shift his mindset to seeing those 4-6 years as preparation to ensure success, not a delay.

      I honestly think being an older business owner is not a bad thing. You can’t buy years of experience and problem-solving off the street. You also can’t say “I wish I could have done this when I was 30!” because you at 30 is not the same person you are now. To quote Terry Pratchett, “That was always the dream, wasn’t it? ‘I wish I’d known then what I know now’? But when you got older you found out that you NOW wasn’t YOU then. You then was a twerp. You then was what you had to be to start out on the rocky road of becoming you now, and one of the rocky patches on that road was being a twerp.” Sure, maybe he could have started his business X years earlier… but would it be as likely to be successful than if he starts it in 4-6 years?

      Good luck to him, at least he’s brave enough to go for his dream. Not everyone is. :)

    3. knitcrazybooknut*

      This doesn’t answer your question, but has he considered starting his business as a part-time endeavor? He could start out with a few clients, and build his way up.

      Obviously, his mileage is going to vary with time constraints and his other obligations. But it’s not really an all-or-nothing, in my eyes.

      1. CBH*

        I believe he has but part of his business plan involves manufacturing. I don’t have much experience in this so sorry if I sound naive. He has been able to make some of his inventory on a smaller scale and sell them as a hobby/ informally. I guess he did this to test the waters. However as he put it, he is really at a point where he will continue with what he has done, but can’t move forward until taking the plunge and actually starting the business.

        1. Arvolin*

          There are companies you can go to for small-scale manufacturing. It’s going to cost more and/or be less reliable than doing your own, but it might work for getting started. There are different sorts of companies in the field; Proto Labs does their own in-house manufacturing for others, for example, while Xometry is a clearing house for excess capacity. If your friend is going that way, researching what’s available is important.

    4. MacGillicuddy*

      Something someone said to a friend: “But will take 8 years to do this project, and by that time I’ll be 52 years old!”
      The reply: “How old will you be in 8 years if you DON’T do this project?”

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I am in my 40s, and I’ll second the comments about age as an asset. My husband has been self-employed for 15+ years, but it’s only now that he has been comfortable growing his business beyond “owning a job”. Even in his 50s, he could easily work another 20 years and more if he wanted to. If he wants to retire at 60, then maybe this business isn’t as important of a dream as it once was (and that’s fine).

      The other thing I’ll add is if he wanted to do it sooner, he could. Is the family on board with his dream, or does he have to work around them? Does his wife have a job, or could she? Will they sell the $40,000 SUV and 3,000 SF house? What other options could be considered to pay for the kids’ college? I’m painting this guy as Mr. Worst-Case-of-Suburbia, but my point is you can make lifestyle changes to live your dreams sooner. Most people seem to like having a dream that they don’t actually have to commit to, though, and not changing anything. Since my kids are 23 and 16, I think I can safely say trying to accommodate them all the time and giving them a nice lifestyle was okay, but it wouldn’t have hurt for them to have had less stuff, fewer privileges and more skin in the game.

      1. CBH*

        While a great idea, my friend and his wife made a lot of sacrifices, including some that you mentioned, for different areas in life. This business just one of their goals. He is ok with taking a while to save for his business I think he was just shocked when he saw age 50-52 when speaking to his financial advisor.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          For those of us who are older than him, we are just shaking our heads and saying, “Keep going, don’t stop now.”

          Ask him to pretend that he is now 62 years old, he decided not to set up his biz. How would he feel at 62 knowing that he had a chance and did not do it because he thought early 50s was too late?

          I am fond of a story about an elderly man in a nursing home. He was celebrating a milestone birthday and a reporter came to interview him. The reporter asked if he had any regrets in life. The man shook his head sadly and said, “I should have take bolder chances more often.” I think of this story often and I want to put myself in a spot where I don’t have this regret. It sounds like your friend has a well thought out plan. Like everything else in life- getting a spouse, getting a house, getting a career- none of these things are instant they take time. Tell him to keep his eyes on the goal and not let this small potatoes stuff distract him.

          1. CBH*

            You are amazing with your words of encouragement. I think I should have been boulder should be everyone’s life motto.

        2. AnotherAlison*

          The good news is you did say the business is one of “their” goals. It’s obviously fine if they had other goals that were higher priority. I think we’ve all seen some couples where one person wanted to do something new and the other one didn’t want to change anything. My parents are those people. My dad bought land to move to 20+ years ago, and my mom refused to move.

          Your friend will get there, and like NSNR said, don’t stop. Do what you can now. Another way to do it with a smaller investment could come up, but it won’t if he gives up.

          1. CBH*

            They will get there. They have a great business idea. Years ago, many of their finances were allocated towards a business his wife started (not an MLM). They decided for her to stay at home to save on childcare. They allocated some funds towards an idea she had that could be done for home. It took a while to take off and it is still growing, but more on the mom and pop side. Friend and wife are very much on the same page financially, they work together. Everyone should have a financial openness that they do. However as everyone said there were many priorities. Now they are getting around to saving for Friend’s dream. He won’t give up, but I definitely think he is discouraged by how long everything is taking. I do think he doesn’t realize (wife does) how great it is that they are set financially. They are tackling hurdles before they even happen.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Between 46 and 50-52 isn’t really that many years, although I’m sure the ’50’ is a big psychological barrier (but doesn’t need to be necessarily). It also assumes that things will continue as they are, I think (e.g. continues to keep a paying job in the meantime) which is by no means certain.

      If he’s in a good place financially already, I think a little less risk aversion and a little more acceptance of risk is indicated. There is no risk-free “starting your own business” no matter how financially sound you are (within reason).

      1. CBH*

        Yes 50 is definitely a big psychological barriers. See my response to AnotherAlison. It definitely answers many of your questions.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          I think my post crossed with yours :) Well, 50, as a chronological age… in some ways I feel like ‘society’ doesn’t help us here, as (at least in the UK, and it’s most likely the same elsewhere) we like to celebrate ‘milestone’ birthdays (16, 18, 21, 25 sometimes, 30, 40, 50, 60….) and those round numbers seem to imbue a lot of significance, in the same way as the turning of a new decade at New Year’s… 50 as an age in itself, doesn’t mean anything really. It’s just a way of marking the passing of time… (I am late 30s and my partner is late 40s, so I am closer to 40 than 30 and he’s closer to 50 than 40 and I just asked the other day “do you feel ‘old’?” (tactful I am I am) and he said “hell no, I’m just reaching my prime!”

      2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        .. what I implied, but didn’t explicitly say, was a bit of a frame challenge to his “starting a business later in life” (e.g. age 52). In that – what if he took the bull by the horns now? Has he considered the possibility? It would be irresponsible of me to say “encourage him to start now” so I won’t (as I have a more risk-tolerant attitude than many), but it’s worth at least suggesting the idea, as I say, as a frame challenge.

        1. CBH*

          My apologies. I misunderstood. I think with their financial planning (one child being ready to enter college) starting right now is not possible.

    7. Loz*

      Um…Car loans and mortgages are debts to get something you want that has value. The same goes for debts associated with starting and operating a business. The number of business that run without debt or line of credit is miniscule. Also, he should be able to separate his person debt from business debt. Given he’s got business plans and models that presumably show him the way, he should rationally be able to move forward or not as per his data. If he’s despondent because it won’t work then he’s dodged a bullet. If it’s merely because “debt” then he should review that.

  8. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    I have a question for supervisors and managers. What do you REALLY think when people take short-term disability? My company seems to denigrate those who do, and works hard to find out why they’re taking time off. It’s been recommended that I take time off for intensive outpatient treatment for severe depression, but I don’t want to be sneered at, or thought less of because of mental health issues. I wish it wasn’t this way, but in reality we know it is.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Personally, I would think, “oh good, this person is taking care of themselves using a benefit to which they are entitled.” It’s not my business what the medical reason is for their using it–that’s between them and their doctor and our disability services office. If the person’s work or attitude has been bad lately, I might think something like, “I hope this leave will give them what they need and that they improve after it’s done.”

    2. Wordnerd*

      I know this isn’t the perspective you’re looking for, but my husband had to take short-term disability to get outpatient treatment for his depression and it saved his life. I hope that the people you work for aren’t terrible people who would think less of you, but you have to do what is right for you. Good luck <3

    3. Catalyst*

      I tend to just think that the person is taking care of their health, if their doctor feels they need to be off, I need to trust that . I do know though, that sometimes it’s not the manager who is taking issue with it/super interested in why but the company itself (which I know is not helpful). All of my staff who have taken short term disability have been very open about the reason they were taking it when they were telling me they would be off, but I do think that I’ve been lucky to have such open relationships with those people. So regardless of what the company knew, I knew the reason (and sometimes the companies impact on that reason) and tried to re-enforce to my manager or HR that the reasoning was valid without actually saying what it was.

    4. Picard*

      Does it matter? No seriously… if you have such serious depression that you require inpatient treatment, who the ef cares what your company/management thinks. Take care of your self. Period.

      I hope you’re doing ok soon.

      1. D3*

        Clearly you’ve never been in a situation where you were treated differently after someone learned you have mental illness. The stigma is real, and it’s a big deal.
        This comment is pretty tone deaf to that.

        1. pancakes*

          Stigma is real, yes, but it doesn’t follow that trying to please the sort of people who stigmatize the treatment of mental health issues is advisable.

        2. Arvolin*

          That depends partly on whether you have to tell the employer what the disability leave is for. In any case, you do need to prioritize your health over possible (or likely) reactions from others.

      2. I'm just here for the cats*

        This is not helpful. And if the OP would get treated differently at work they would care,

    5. Neosmom*

      I had some sinus surgery and my recovery time was going to be about 8 business days. STD kicked in after 5 business days and I told my boss (the company president). She asked me why I was using STD instead of PTO for those three days. I told her the STD was part of my total compensation package and I had plans for using those PTO days. Her response was, “Good answer.”

      I hope approaching STD as part of your total compensation package is effective with your management team.

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        I wish my short term disability was like that. When I had emergency surgery and was outfor like 3 weeks HR said I had to use up all my PTo and sick time first. since the PTO had literally reset itself the week before I got sick I ended up using almost all of my personal and vacation time. I have like 3 days left

    6. achoo*

      As a human, I think, “oh no, I’m sorry this person is in distress/pain/etc and I hope they feel better soon.”

      As a manager I think, “okay, what do we need to cover while this person is out.”

      Sometimes I’m sure people get frustrated because workload is increasing, do more with less, etc but the frustration should be aimed at the workplace, not the co-worker. As a manager, I always help prioritize tasks so that people are not overwhelmed.

      Denigration and suspicion never enter the picture.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Achoo stated it EXACTLY the way I would have. I had an employee who had to take short term disability for treatment of a chronic medical issue and about six weeks after she returned from that, she got into an accident and had to be out again for several weeks. My only response was to hope that she got better, to help facilitate the leave paperwork and to make sure that her work was covered by the team. Because that was my job as a manager.

      2. le beef*

        That’s exactly what I was going to say. Short term disability eligibility is determined by a person’s medical provider, so that’s all I need to know. I’m not a doctor; I don’t even play one on TV.

      3. Glitsy Gus*

        Yeah, in my experience, the way your company handles work coverage can really color how the disability time is viewed. It’s unfortunate, but kind of part of human nature.

        If your company is relatively good at keeping teams well staffed and has solid fall back and coverage plans, most of the time folks may be a little annoyed at the extra work, but overall they will want you to take care of yourself and won’t judge you or even ask a lot of questions (unless they are just clueless nosy people).

        If your company is perpetually understaffed and has no real back up plan for people being out for longer than a couple days, people may not want to blame you or think badly of you, but there may be that little bit of bitterness that lingers from having to shoulder the burden of your work while you were out. This isn’t fair at all! Please know that I know that, and the employees having to cover should be blaming their boss and overall company structure, not you. Having been on both sides of the equation, though, sometimes it’s just easier to blame the one person than to try to get mad at the bigger structure you have no control over.

        1. Glitsy Gus*

          Oh, sorry I forgot to also center that around when supervisors need to deal with the scrambling and the bitterness from other employees covering your work it can sometimes leave a bad taste int heir mouth regarding your leave. Good managers will understand this is not your fault, and actively try to recenter the whole thing so they don’t let the issues they had to deal with bleed onto you. Bad managers aren’t as good at that kind of self reflection and re-centering.

    7. NW Mossy*

      Without getting into too many details, I’ve previously managed a couple of people while they were having a serious mental health crisis, so I’ve got direct experience with this.

      For me, my overriding concern was that they were getting the help they need (which included leave/disability) and providing logistical guidance – links to policies, connections to appropriate HR contacts, reassurance that the process is designed to protect confidentiality around medical info, etc. It was also really important to me to make sure they knew that I’d follow their lead on what to say to teammates or other staff – I’d keep anything they said about their issue/treatment in confidence unless they explicitly gave permission to share more widely. Happily, in both cases the employee was able to return to work after treatment and were highly productive afterwards.

      The tough part is that your situation, like a lot of others around leave, boils down to whether or not your boss/upper management have your trust because they’ve behaved in ways that earned it. Here, it doesn’t seem that they have, so it’ll require you to be more circumspect. Alison’s archives offer lots of great suggestions for “it’s a medical thing, not-your-business” scripts, which will likely be your best bet.

    8. I wouldn't but...*

      Never had that happen but thinking about it and answering truthfully…
      I would be understanding and want them to do what they needed to feel better but would be stressed about covering their workload. But that would be on me to deal with and not something you’d need to worry about. Things happen when we don’t want them to and if you got hit by a car and spent a several weeks in the hospital, as your manager I would need to deal with the additional stress. Just because it is your mental health, that doesn’t mean you should put off treatment any more than you would if you got hit by a car.

    9. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Every time I’ve heard of someone who’s out on medical leave/disability/whatever my thought is hope they’re ok. If I know generally what’s going on, it’s more a specific “hope their surgery went well” or whatever.

      Then I think about how their absence impacts the work. Your company is apparently made up of crappy people.

    10. Zzz*

      I did it this. It was fine. (It was also months-long.). It was, I think, frustrating for some team members at first, and maybe some grumbling happened. But then… it was fine. I was panicking about being gone so long, but my bosses didn’t care all that much. Coming back was hard for me because I had these feelings like I’VE BEEN DEALING WITH HELL HOW CAN YOU ACT LIKE NOTHING HAPPENED. But it’s work, they didn’t ask, and it was actually much, much better that I didn’t have to explain. And- it’s all been fine, work-wise, in part because I’m healthier. I don’t think anyone remembers; I’m assumed to know about things that happened while I was gone. Somewhat relatedly, someone in my team had to go part-time for a few months while dealing with an ugly divorce. I don’t know the details (ie if there was STD involved) but everyone rolled with it, and it was fine. My work environment is high-stress, lots of hours, and my bosses don’t manage well. But even here, the whole thing was a lot easier than I feared. [Note: the STD paperwork took more energy than I had at the beginning, so be aware. But it was fine, too.]. It’s worth getting better, though it will always be a struggle- taking time now will help you deal with things better long after the immediate crisis ends.

    11. Thankful for AAM*

      My son took leave for that. I was very worried about how his workplace would react. I have no idea what the backroom chatter is but they were very professional and matter of fact with him.

    12. Someone On-Line*

      I currently supervise a couple of people who are handling some complex, complicated health conditions, some of which have required use of short-term disability.
      As a manager and supervisor, it is so much easier to plan workload around someone who proactively takes care of their health and communicates with me about their need for time off.
      The hardest to plan around is someone who does not adequately plan and fails to communicate with me, so I’m not sure what they need, what they have been doing, etc.
      So taking disability, for things such as depression, would be fine in my organization, but we are a public health agency. I think the lesson here is that if your current company is not good about that, other companies are.

      Take care of yourself!

    13. LQ*

      So I hear some REALLY harsh folks talk about this and you asked for what people really think.

      It’s 80% based on how the person normally is at work. If it’s someone who is a really excellent employee the thought is “I hope they take care of themselves, I hope everythings ok, I hope they get better.” If they are the top 1% of people it’s “I will do anything to make sure they can keep this job while going through that and I’m willing to read the rules really broadly to do that.” If someone is fine, but not outstanding but is nice and polite and not a difficult employee its “Let’s make sure they have the space to get well but we need to think about what happens if they can’t come back or it takes longer.” (Never gotten rid of someone even bad, but sometimes jobs are different after people return to try to find a better fit for them.) If someone is a troublesome employee (and they are being poorly managed) it’s never good, it’s always a weird combo of annoyance “they never show up anyway so why not take disability” and frustration “have they done a single days work in the last year?”

      The last % is how critical that person is to the work at that moment, what the disclosure/work for the boss is, and then how well liked the person is.

      Even at my pretty sneery workplace unless you’ve always been an actively bad employee (which in this case needs to include at least some element of being a jerk) then it’s going to be some variation of fine.

      1. Firecat*

        My experience is quite different then yours.

        I’m a top performer, consistently ranked in the top 10% or 15%. I cover tasks for coworkers, train, give lots of notice for vacay, and have step by step with picture guides for everything I do.

        I had to have an emergency surgery and I was treated like shit by my coworkers and bosses for months! It went as far as groups of people lying about me when I returned to get me in trouble. And that was for emergency surgery for an organ failure!

        When another co-worker of mine, also a top performer, had to go on leave for mental health she was ridiculed at staff meetings, behind closed doors, out in the bullpens the works. She eventually left our department.

        What’s interesting is the manager that gave me the hardest time for the organ failure was kind about the mental health crisis but the manager who was ok and not great about my surgery was a hulking terror about the mental health issue.

        It’s very much a know your office thing.

    14. Former Retail Manager*

      I really think it varies by industry & company. When I was a retail manager, it was certainly frowned upon, to put it lightly, and there was always gossip as to why so-and-so was out. But retail is a different beast, and taking short term disability (or any leave really), with little notice, creates a staffing problem in most retail environments. I will say that it was much less of a “thing” if someone had an obvious injury, like a car accident, fall, etc. But if the injury isn’t obvious, everyone tended to believe that they were making stuff up to get time off work.

      If your company is like this, I hate to say it, but it’s probably pretty likely that you’ll be thought less of. The only thing I can say is to protect your privacy and don’t tell them any more than they need to know (don’t mention mental health if at all possible). And I do hope you get the treatment you need.

      and I can say, that not all employers are like yours or my old retail employer. My current employer is very supportive and wouldn’t bat an eye.

    15. Sarra N. Dipity*

      To be honest, if the person didn’t tell me what the leave was for, I would be REALLY curious as to what it was, but I would definitely refrain from asking because it’s really none of my business.

      I worked for a company that demoted people after while they were off on STD leave, and laid people off who had planned STD leave (including me; I was laid off 2 weeks before my maternity leave was scheduled to start) (all illegal, AFAIK, and I am happy to say that the company is no longer in business). so yeah, I know there’s some pretty rotten companies out there.

      If you do take this opportunity for intensive treatment, please make sure that some of the work you’re doing involves your therapist(s) helping you strategize around your return to work!

    16. Ashley*

      I think a lot of this can be based on how reasonable your manager is normally. If they are not normally reasonable I doubt they will handle this well either. Same thing applies about HR. If they are normally ok, they should be ok with this. This is all made easier the better employee you are.

    17. Not_Kate_Winslet*

      This wouldn’t be an issue at my work place at all. We encourage employees to take the time that they need (aligned with bargaining unit contracts, civil service rules, etc.).

    18. LGC*

      Self-important supervisor here!

      1) you’re probably going to get outlier answers because the kinds of supervisors that read AAM are also the kinds of supervisors that are Extremely Woke (hi).

      2) if you’re in the US – if you’re at an FMLA-eligible employer, legally it shouldn’t matter what they think.

      3) I am likely going to get myself in trouble for what I’m about to say.

      Okay, all that said: to be honest, I’d probably be a bit frustrated on the inside that you’d spring a (presumably sudden and lengthy) absence on me because honestly, I’m chronically short-staffed as it is. But I’d probably follow your lead in terms of how much information you’d like to reveal to me. (I’d direct you to HR, because you do need to document this with HR. Plus, they don’t have that much control over hiring as shown by the guy who made a wildly inappropriate comment to one of our HR reps in his interview and still got hired)

      But also, I’d probably be fine with it in 5 minutes. Like, people get sick all the time. People get cancer and need to take months off for treatment. People get COVID and need to take weeks off at least. Maybe it’s because I’ve had mental health issues myself (depression in my case), but I think that mental health is…just health. The job’s important, but what’s more important is that you’re well enough/in a good enough position to work. And if you need time off to get well, then take that time.

      Specific to your situation – I would go to HR and ask them to keep it confidential because you’re afraid of retaliation. I’m not sure how well that’d work in practice, but 1) as I mentioned, FMLA and 2) even if they don’t, you said it. If you’re up to it and you want to use vacation time instead, that might be an alternate route you’d want to take. (I hate that answer, but if you’re that worried about them finding out, that might be an option.)

      1. New Senior Mgr*

        Outlier answers… was thinking the same and really hope she has one of us as her manager (or like-minded).

    19. Kiwi with laser beams*

      At my company you’d be fine. At yours, I think Alison has written advice before about dealing with companies that are nosy and judgy about what you’re taking medical leave for, so it might be worth having a look and seeing what you can find (I can’t remember much and I don’t want to put you wrong).

  9. Ducky*

    Continuing this week’s coaching and language-softening discussions, I’m having trouble dealing with my boss, who is eager to coach me on likability even though I am not at all interested.

    I’m a woman on the autism spectrum, with very direct style and no patience for empty buzzwords or placating egos. I can “people please” given advance notice, but it’s exhausting to constantly maintain. Generally, people who are good at their jobs like and appreciate me and people who skate by on the social contract can’t stand me. (Yes, I realize how judgy that sounds.)

    I’ve come to peace with this now in my late 30s, but my current manager desperately wants me to be more “likable.” To that end, she is doing her best to coach me with tips about tone and phrasing. She’s often right, and sometimes what she tells me is something I realized myself immediately after I said the wrong thing, but sometimes I think she simply has different ideas of what’s best, or it’s a situtation where nothing would have worked. Plus, many of the tips contradict each other, such as when I’m supposed to over-communicate and when I’m supposed to have faith in my colleagues. I just want to be a person, not a perfect robot.

    Do I need to just suck it up and tell her “thank you” after each tip, even knowing I’ll never be able to perfectly implement them or make everyone like me? Unfortunately, I’m already resentful because I’m doubtful my co-workers get regular “did you know people don’t like you?” conversations with their managers 3-4 times a week.

    I think I just need some neutral third parties to weigh in so I can feel better about dealing with what seems a very unfair situation.

    1. Littorally*

      Thanking her for her advice doesn’t imply that you’re going to take it or that you consider it useful. Think of it as thanking her for her time and thoughts, rather than a commitment that you’re going to implement every suggestion she offers.

      A lot of people will give you more suggestions than you can take, with the understanding that you’ll pick and choose the options that work best for you. There’s an unstated sense of “here are ten options, if you implement six of them that will be a great improvement.” I can’t know for sure from here whether that’s how she’s coming at you, but it’s a distinct possibility.

      1. Ducky*

        She’s my boss, though, is the problem, so I’m pretty sure I’m supposed to treat her advice as gospel. And she means well and is very kind and smart.

        I’m very happy with the rest of my life at this point – love my family (most of whom are also on the spectrum), have wonderful friends, back in the Before Times all the people at the coffee shop and grocery store were great to me because I would say nice things to their managers, etc. The only problem is that work forces me to deal with people who aren’t great and those people in turn are forced to deal with me.

        1. Helen J*

          If she is telling you 3 or 4 times a week that people don’t like you, I don’t think that’s “very kind”.

          1. Ducky*

            I was paraphrasing there and did her a disservice. What I mean is, 3-4 times a week during our one-on-one meetings she’ll bring up something like “I don’t think Soandso liked that you said X” or “When you wrote that in the chat, did you notice no one responded?” or “I’m just worried about people liking you and seeing your value” and so on. Then it turns into a whole Thing and my blatant attempts to say “okay” and change the topic aren’t appreciated.

            1. Littorally*

              That is really often for her to be getting into that — at that point, you should be having big-picture discussions less often, not constant granular nitpicking. But also, the “say ‘okay’ and change the topic” strategy really isn’t appropriate when your boss is trying to coach you on how you’re interacting with coworkers.

              1. Ducky*

                I say “okay” and change the subject after acknowledging the feedback and explaining if there’s an explanation and telling her that I’ll try to do better. But she seems to want more from me. I’ve explicitly said “I understand, I will do my best, but I can’t promise because this is something I’ve always had problems with” and that’s not what she wants to hear.

            2. Kathenus*

              While I understand that this can be grating, when I was working on smoothing out some of my communication issues, being told specific examples in the moment was enormously helpful to me. It was so hard to figure out when people thought I was curt or didn’t have enough tact when I was told in generalities months later. Hearing after a meeting or call a specific example really helped me.

              From just what you wrote, I think there might be a couple of levels to consider. Maybe your boss is focusing on building appropriate work relationships which is an important skill throughout your career, and helping you learn the tools to do that versus the goal being that ‘everybody likes you’. I will guarantee that everyone I work doesn’t always like me as I’m still pretty direct to the point of blunt at times, but I’ve learned and continue to practice the skills of respectful communication so that my message doesn’t get lost in my delivery which will hurt me and my projects in the long-run. I know it’s a tough aspect of work to navigate, good luck.

            3. Uranus Wars*

              I wonder if she is bring it up so often because you are brushing it off and trying to change the subject? A deeper conversation around it or indication you are listening to the feedback might help. Not suggesting you take it all, but a nugget or two as suggested above.

              She could also be bringing it up because others on the team might be bringing it up to her in their own one-on-ones each week and overall she is trying to work with all of you on something harmonious – not just you.

              1. Ducky*

                *I* know I’m not brushing her off, but I could try and make it even clearer than I thought I was being, that’s a good point.

                Other people bringing it up – I’m pretty sure certain people, especially in Sales (aka people most likely to rely on the unspoken social contract/put importance on eye contact/use buzzwords instead of saying what they mean/avoid negatives) do tell her whenever they don’t like something about me and that’s what she’s concerned about, but even if no one says anything to her she’s anticipating problems based on what she perceives as unlikable behavior. :(

                1. Working Hypothesis*

                  How seriously does she take this as a performance issue? Do you know? There’s a big difference, in terms of what you actually have to do about it (assuming you want to keep that job) between “my boss likes to give me advice about personal stuff, it’s just a thing of hers,” and “my boss is trying to get across to me that she requires me to change the way I interact or my employment could be at risk.”

            4. Esmeralda*

              The thing is, YOU may be ok with how you’re interacting, but your boss has to care about how others feel about their interactions with you. Other people are not OK with how you are treating them — as the boss, she needs to make sure those people are ok and that the team as a whole functions well. Right now, if she needs to tell you multiple times a week that what you are doing is making other people feel not-ok, then that’s a problem for the team and (this is blunt) you are the problem.

              You may be ok with that, but understand that your coworkers are not ok with it and your boss is not ok with it (otherwise she wouldn’t be coaching you on changing your behavior), which can affect you ultimately (promotions, raises, opportunities at work).

              Of course it is hard and seems contradictory at times (social interactions are like that, because the situations are complex and there is not always a one-size-fits-all rule). And you may not want to do it or like to do it. But we all have to do things that are hard, seem contradictory or illogical, are things we don’t want/like to do. Especially at work.

              More importantly, to me anyway, is respect: not even trying sends the message that you don’t really respect the people who you are making feel bad: maybe you respect them for their work but your behavior says that you don’t them as people who are worthy of consideration.

    2. Nesprin*

      Your boss is trying to communicate that “being liked” is part of your job, and unfortunately that means you have to be interested. And unfortunately, there’s no formula for “being liked” as you point out- what’s acceptable behavior at a bar with friends is frequently not acceptable behavior at work and vice versa. Given that you have autism, your interactions with your boss will be different than your coworkers (trust me from another non-neurotypical sister, they will be) and comparing how you interact with people to how others do is not going to be useful.

      But more fundamentally, do you trust your boss’s judgement? Do you think she’s generally on your side and trying to make sure you succeed at your job? You admit that sometimes you have your foot in your mouth and agree with your boss’s advice and sometimes you think she’s overreacting. Can you try for a week and every time she gives you advice on anything, remind yourself that she’s trying to make you a better worker, say thank you for her willingness to give feedback, and consider what she’s trying to tell you?

      I try hard in my own life to remember that feedback is a gift- being given the opportunity to hear that there’s a problem is so much better than the alternative, which is indifference. Sometimes feedback is wrong, and sometimes the giver doesn’t have all the facts, so it’s so tempting to argue.

      1. Aquawoman*

        But is being liked part of her job? Or is the boss a middle-child type who is stressed when not everyone gets along and feels like she has to fix it? Or are people yanking ducky’s chain by complaining to the manager incessantly just because they don’t like her?

        Also, three to four discussions a week is way excessive. I would never do that as a coaching approach because you’re just going to shut people down. I work with the person, not against them. “Everything you do is wrong and you have to change into a different person” is not actionable and will just lead to resentment. “Don’t directly say that a co-worker messed up” is actionable.

        1. Ducky*

          Nesprin has a point. I’m a content writer, so being liked isn’t an explicit part of my job but I do need to be able to interact with many of my co-workers to get information about products. On the other hand, *I* can guess that the people complaining just don’t like me but for some strange reason people who like me refuse to believe me when I say someone else hates me. “No, they don’t hate you! They just don’t understand.” No, they really, REALLY hate me. Trust me. Been there, done that, learned that sometimes giving the benefit of doubt will only lead to literal tears.

          She likes my writing, but has told me she doesn’t want to just give me compliments all the time and wants to focus on what can be improved. XD Yes, she was definitely a straight-A student. (I always had at least one B…)

          By the way, I really appreciate the compassion of you and the others taking the time to respond. This is very hard for me to figure out.

          1. Junger*

            Argh, the fact that people refuse to believe you about what the problem is really doesn’t help with this either. No amount of social niceties will stop someone from hating your guts.

            If you haven’t had one already, maybe a higher-level conversation with your manager could help? One where you sit down with her and work out all the changes she would like you to make, how they’re meant to help, and which ones you’re going to focus on?

            Then if she tries to keep having these conversations 3-4 times per week, you have something concrete to point to (and cut her short if it seems like she starts rehashing previkus discussions)

        2. Malarkey01*

          I think there’s a difference between “liked” and “actively disliked” and it sounds, based on Ducky’s examples, that she is saying things that others don’t take well and they dislike her (and serious props for being able to talk about it because that’s hard). While it’s fine if my employees aren’t good friends and wouldn’t chose to spend free time together and aren’t each other’s cup of tea, it’s not okay if someone is creating discontent by rubbing people the wrong way-especially if I can point to specific things said as “not appropriate” or “that’s not how we speak to each other in this office”. It breaks down collaboration and drags down productivity and morale.

          I know it’s exhausting but maybe try to go a day where you don’t say anything without running it through your mind first. It also comes across that you don’t respect a lot of your coworkers and think they are slackers, which totally valid but in your case it’s hard not to display that and you could try reframing it to not judge anyone’s performance and stay neutral to help in your specific situation.

        3. Esmeralda*

          “Being liked” may not be part of her job, but behaving in a way that does not upset other people almost undoubtedly is. That is, unless you are working almost all the time on your own and don’t have to interact with other people, you have to interact appropriately with them.

          From the examples, even though the boss may be saying “likable”, what I’m seeing is, learn behaviors that show you respect other people and have consideration for their feelings. It doesn’t matter if you really do care about other people’s feelings; what matters is behaving as if you do.

          I think we’re getting hung up on “be likable” when that’s not really the problem here.

          1. Wintergreen*

            Ducky is not responsible for other people’s feelings. Ducky need only be professional. As long as she is professional, she does not need to be likable or consider their feelings at all.

            “Hey idiot, you didn’t include X document.” is not professional

            “You didn’t include X document.” may be a little blunt but is professional

            “I’m so sorry, I can’t find X document. Can you please resend?” knowing they didn’t send the first time but you don’t want to not sound “accusatory” and hurt their feelings is not necessary but is often seen as “likable”

            From the original OP, I’m assuming the middle scenario is where Ducky is falling

            1. Anon Lawyer*

              Eh, no, sometimes you need to not always be blunt with your coworkers even if each individual utterance falls within the bounds of “professionalism”.

              1. Anon Lawyer*

                Also, you do need to consider other people’s feelings. Not all people all of the time. But it’s a copout to say you’re not responsible for other people’s feelings full stop. If you say something rude, it is predictable that their feelings will be hurt and that’s on you. If you say something that is not rude and their feelings get hurt, that is on them. (Generalizing.)

            2. Working Hypothesis*

              It really depends on the office. It’s entirely possible that her particular boss DOES regard saying things in ways which protect the feelings of other team members as a necessary part of the job. At that point, as Alison often says, Ducky would need to decide whether she wants the job as it is, including that requirement, or whether she wants to look for something else.

              Not all offices require more consideration for others than simple professionalism… but many do, and it’s not a ridiculous ask. If they’re concerned with overall morale and trying to ensure that their staff is, on balance, healthy and happy, they may well be prepared (if Ducky makes it necessary) to sacrifice one otherwise-good employee who is making everyone else unhappy. That may not be Ducky’s or Wintergreen’s preferred method of managing, but it’s a fairly common one… and if it’s the one Ducky’s particular manager is using, she needs to know that and decide whether she wants the job on those terms. Just saying “No, I’ll be professional but blunt is who I am and you’ll have to live with it” only works if you don’t really care whether you get to keep the job or not.

        4. Filosofickle*

          While it does sound like a lot — and I have no way of knowing if what I’m about to describe is what the boss is doing — there is a philosophy of coaching that aims to give lots of frequent feedback on specific instances as close to in-the-moment as possible. So that means lots of small corrections / praise. In a perfect world, the boss would be handling it in a way where the feedback is direct and light, not a big to-do. Constructive and not shaming. Hopefully not a “discussion” FFS. But, I can certainly see where it would feel excessive and crappy anyway.

          Emotionally, I would hate it but this approach is exactly what I would need to change how I communicate in a reasonable time frame.

      2. NW Mossy*

        This is a really helpful way to look at it. Effective bosses make a conscious effort to coach their employees on internal politics and culture as part of development for success. Having allies and “professional friends” in your company makes you more effective because you can call in favors, get support for your goals, and have a group of people who’ll support your point of view even when you’re not in the room.

        Relatively few of our colleagues really see our work in the frequent, up-close way that allows them to reach deeply informed judgments about how good that work is. Instead, their opinions of you are more of a sense impression – what they feel working with you takes on outsized importance because that’s the easy-to-reach data about you and your work. This feels deeply unfair, but all humans face this – it’s the nature of working relationships. We’ve all had situations where we formed an impression of a colleague that turned out to be wrong, and we’ve all been misjudged in return.

        It’s a natural reaction to understand this reality and then react by discounting the opinions of others – I mean, they’re factually wrong, right? But at work, this is a trap. The opinions of others matter a lot in defining things that impact you heavily – your compensation, your performance rating, the types of projects you get, promotions/transfers, and more. Their sense impressions guide their reaction when your boss advocates for you, and the more they’re disposed to like you already, the easier it is for her to get them on board with her aims on your behalf.

    3. KimmyBear*

      Wow. I’m sorry. This sounds exhausting. I will say that there are elements of work that are made easier by being liked but that doesn’t justify these ongoing conversations. Does your boss know you are on the spectrum? I’m not encouraging disclosure but I suspect there might be different advice depending on the answer.

      1. Ducky*

        She does; I accidentally let it slip about two months into this job. Since then, she’s been persistent about wanting me to disclose “so that other people can understand me.” I resisted for quite a while. I’m “out” in the rest of my life and happy to talk with people about it – actually love answering questions -but disclosing to people who already don’t like me usually just gives them another reason to not like me. I finally gave in and said she could tell people a couple months ago but have noticed no significant changes. Of course, it’s the plague, so hard to judge.

        I’ve tried to tell her I’ve been getting this kind of feedback my whole life (girls who are weird are very much pressured not to be) and what she’s seeing is actually the improved version with a lot of work put in, plus I genuinely like her so I tend to let down my mask around her, but she’s really, really determined.

        1. Amaranth*

          Does she want people to like you personally or just smooth working relationships? Have you asked if there is a significant problem here, and if she is trying to get across there might be professional consequences if A or B don’t change? On the one hand it’s not up to her to make everyone BFFs at work so long as everyone can work together professionally. On the other, she should be clear if this is going to impact raises or promotions.

        2. Barb*

          It could be that she’s worried that she’ll have to fire you if you are not working well with others. You’re not doing your job well if people are so unhappy they don’t want to work with you, and that’s a problem for her. I would be very worried about ignoring a top priority of my boss.

    4. Aquawoman*

      Just for context, I’m probably on, or at least very near, the autism spectrum myself. Three to four conversations a week are a lot, like hugely a lot. I wonder if certain people are complaining to her about you and she’s responding every time, and they’re yanking her chain and yours. She should shut that down.

      It’s hard to know without knowing what kinds of things she’s identifying. My only suggestions for you are to maybe have a higher-level conversation with her where you say that you’re willing to try to improve your communication style but you can’t really change into a completely different person; and to try to incorporate routine lines into your conversations that might ease things. (And I do get that that takes effort, which is why I’m suggesting that they be a sort of script).

        1. Wintergreen*

          Have you specifically mentioned how much stress it causes you? Perhaps something along the lines of “Boss, I know we are working to improve my communication style but these meetings 3-4 times a week is causing me a lot of stress and anxiety. Would it be possible to step back and not look at each individual occurrence that could have been improved? Perhaps cut down the meetings to 1 every other week and focus on (insert what you think could actually be improved) in a larger context.”

          1. Ducky*

            I’m going to try this advice, thank you. I would have thought hearing about things as they happen would have been best, but it really is draining when it’s so constant.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Can you try one more ‘big picture’ conversation with her, to get her to back off? A script might be, “Hi Boss. I really appreciate that you want me to succeed, and I do understand that getting along with coworkers is an important part of my job. I understand that saying X isn’t constructive, for example.

          Can you accept that I see the concern and am working on it? [pause for her response]

          When you give me explicit feedback 3 – 4 times a week, it makes me more tense, and makes it harder for me to focus on my work and demeanor. Can you focus future feedback on issues we haven’t discussed so far?”

          But you have to mean it – appreciating that she wants you to have a better career, actually trying to limit whatever it was you said that got commented on before, putting in a little softening language. It will slow you down and is extra work, but it is actually part of the work they’re paying for.

          You might set up a positive jar to remind yourself of that – every time you send an email with softened language or do something else she’s recommended, put in a quarter. At $x, buy yourself something nice.

          Good luck. My kid and sister are autistic; I probably am but haven’t bothered with the testing. Weird – definitely. Totally, very, yep. I feel your pain.

        3. Junger*

          It sounds like she’s trying to make vague and unreasonable demands and hiding them with buzzwords. Combined with the boundary-pushing you mentioned, it sounds like she’s not very good at this part of managing, so I’m not sure if her complaints are valid or not.

    5. Anon for this*

      Given that your boss is suggesting this, if you haven’t already had it, see if she will pay for some social skills training. My son, who is also on the spectrum, benefitted from a social skills group led by a social worker. He received some tools to use, practiced responding in various situations.

      Far more helpful to get this help from a professional than from a supervisor who is not an expert on communications styles and the challenges faced by those on the autism spectrum.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      Also a woman on the autism spectrum, in her early 40s.

      Your boss sounds obnoxious, but that doesn’t mean she’s entirely wrong. I can’t tell here how much you’ve maxed out your ability to compensate and how much you’re digging in your heels because you’ve decided this is unfair, but if your coworkers are, indeed, better at placating egos (which, to a certain extent, is a job skill, not a personality trait), then maybe it’s not.

      I work in a medical school library, which means assisting a lot of big-shot researchers and doctors, and placating egos is very definitely part of my job. It doesn’t mean they get to walk all over me (and my boss will back me up on this) but if I refused to budge every time I thought somebody was too big for his britches I would not be doing my job. There is a lot of room between “not implementing this perfectly” and not implementing it enough because you just don’t think you should have to. (You don’t have to make everyone like you, either, but you may have to make certain people like you more than they currently do.)

      Have you asked her to clarify the conflicting instructions, with specific examples? There may be a difference in situation there that you’re not picking up, or she may back off when you point out that she can’t have it both ways.

    7. Important Moi*

      Is it really important your job that everyone finds you “likeable”? If so, I say suck it up and say “thank you” like you said.

      If not, I would suggest talking to someone about resenting your boss wanting you to be a different person than you are. You may need to manage that. I am managing that. I am not on the spectrum, but I’ve heard that my tone is too formal. I don’t agree. I think my tone is professional with the appropriate boundaries. This is my job. We aren’t family The observation about my tone feels like a personal attack on me and my personality.

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I was wondering if I’d written this in my sleep, until I got to the manager wanting you to be more likeable part. (The worst I’ve gotten from my current manager is that my foremost area of improvement on my review the last couple years has been that I should work on having more patience with people who make repeated mistakes. Which makes me wonder why I should have more patience with them, instead of they should STOP MAKING THE SAME FRIGGIN MISTAKES OVER AND OVER AGAIN, but whatever, at least she’s not putting “get other people to stop screwing up” on my review.)

      But no, 3-4 conversations a week is ridiculous and it is an unfair situation.

      1. Doc*

        Have you ever considered that 3-4 conversations a week implies that OP is the one who keeps making the same mistake over and over again?

        1. Barb*

          Yes, to me this says she is at risk of being fired for not making an attempt to implement the boss’s suggestions. Intense coaching sounds like an informal PIP.

    9. Bad Hare Day*

      I am a woman, not on the autism spectrum, and this is my personality, too! I am very direct with my feedback and I have very high expectations for others. If you are my colleague/direct report and you put effort into doing your job well, take responsibility for/learn from your mistakes, we are going to get along great. If you are lazy or unmotivated we are going to have a problem, especially if your performance impacts my ability to do my job to a high standard.

      While I’m not on the spectrum, I do have a parent who most likely is (no diagnosis), so it took me longer to learn some of the social rules that other kids absorb at a young age. I am also an introvert by nature. However, I have a job that requires a high level of emotional intelligence/empathy and extraversion (client relationships). I can switch into a different personality mode when I need to be charming if I’m at an event or in client meetings. However, it’s exhausting and I certainly can’t maintain it for a 40-hour work week.

      I definitely got into a lot of trouble at my last job where my dept director had a very similar style to what you describe your company/boss’s culture. “Bad Hare Day, why did you make X cry?” “Well, I told her she couldn’t leave early to get her nails done because she didn’t finish the TPS report that was due last week.”

      It sounds like this job/boss is not a good fit for your style. In the meantime, what helps me with clients might help you. I can find something I like about nearly everyone. Even if we have wildly different backgrounds, personalities, values, etc.–there’s going to be at least 1 thing we can connect on or I appreciate about them. “Susan spends a lot of her free time volunteering at the Humane Society,” “Michael is a really good dad to his 2 kids,” etc. See if you can get to know your colleagues a little better and find something you can appreciate about them, and you will start to care about them on a personal level. Developing those relationships will hopefully make your boss back off and will also make your day to day work life a bit easier.

    10. Super Duper Anon*

      I think there is a middle ground here. Its not so much being “liked” as being able to communicate well with everyone so that they are willing to give you content/reviews/information that you need to do your job. I am a technical writer, and while I am not autistic, these soft skills didn’t come naturally to me either. It took a lot of practice over a number of years to learn how to do it well.

      Hopefully what might help is separating out “being liked” from “communicate effectively”. You don’t need people to like you socially (I am not friends with my coworkers), you just want them to think “Oh hey Ducky is asking me for something, I should jump on that soon”.

      Maybe your boss could point you towards some communication classes? That might help more than her working with you directly.

    11. Dasein9*

      Okay, so you have feedback from the boss that your “likability” quotient isn’t high enough.
      And we can all agree that being pleasant to work with is part of most jobs.
      And the boss is giving contradictory advice that doesn’t seem very effective.

      Could there be another solution, a third way? Maybe you can identify some commonality among those who don’t like you and address whatever that commonality is? You describe them as people who “skate by on the social contract,” which may be a clue. Can you figure out what these folks value and maybe accommodate that a bit? Social cues can be super tricky, but most people do appreciate a genuine attempt to be agreeable.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I am not on the spectrum. However, my Worst Boss Ever (WBE) decided that she was going to help me get along better at work.
      I was doing fine until I went to work for her, but skip that part.

      We’d cross paths on an irregular basis but it got to the point when I saw her I wanted to hide. It would be a list of my sins (real or imagined) that I had committed since then last time she saw me, plus a recap of our previous list of sins. I ended up super self-conscious about every move I made. Then one day I realized I would never, ever please this person. And I realized what she disguised as helping me, was actually her way of sabotaging me. Behind my back she was telling others that she did not want a female assistant manager.
      In the end she told me that her boss said to either fire me or demote me. Long story short, I didn’t think her boss said that. And that made this whole story even worse because I realized she was a loose cannon with no supervision herself. I quit. When she begged me to stay, I found confirmation that she had basically lied about what the big boss said. She hadn’t planned that I would quit over it.

      My point is your boss is a terrible boss. Her degree of intervention will NOT work with most people. She is over the top. Worse, she is making you more resentful which is not going to motivate you to “improve”. (Notice the quotes, because I am not convinced you need to “improve”.) And she reminds me of my WBE. My boss was going to manage everyone’s relationships with everyone else so we would all get along better. What needed to happen was each person needed to be told to discuss a situation with the other person involved. And what also needed to happen was WBE needed to actually manage her people. For example, workers who were saying totally inappropriate things should have been spoken to, written and then if there was no change they needed to be fired. That never happened.

      My suggestion is to go one story at a time. One toxic boss I had, one day informed me that one of my favorite people had put in a complaint about me. I said, “I am sorry to hear that. I like this person on a professional level and on a personal level. If there is a problem I think we should talk it over with her right now.”
      Suddenly my boss backpedaled. So I pushed. I started walking over to the supposed complainer. My boss reached out and touched my arm to stop me. (It was a light touch, but enough.) Now she had to come up with something, so she said, “Well the complaint was a while ago.” So I pressed on. “Well, still it should be put to rest.” Then finally she said, “It wasn’t that bad.” Okay so why are we talking about it?

      I did this each time this boss complained about some imaginary thing. She only did it one or two more times before before she realized my response would be the same each time she did it. And her complaints stopped.

      Punchline:
      Tell her that you want to talk to the actual person involved and get their take on things.
      OR
      Tell her that people should ask you questions if they do not understand your tone or why you have just said something.
      Let her know that her coaching sessions are more like information dumps and it’s too much information all at once. Remind her that it makes it harder to do your job if you feel like your every move is being watched.
      [I’d ask her if she would do this coaching sessions with me if i was male. But that’s me.]
      And I would consider going to HR. You said she did not do this before you disclosed. What she is doing is too intense to be called coaching. It’s not coaching, it’s something else. I have worked with folks with all different types of disabilities for over a decade and I never came close to the level of coaching like what she is doing. It’s not necessary, nor is it helpful. She does not have the quals to be coaching on this level. Seriously.

      I am ticked on your behalf. I hope you can get this situation turned around.

    13. Disabled in Seattle*

      I’m also autistic (and working to navigate it in my work life) and I want to share something I’ve noticed. Sometimes, when people know that I have autism, minor “oh, I wouldn’t have said that in that way” things that would be ignored and forgotten in not-autistic people get noticed. I think it’s that they’re actively thinking of me as someone who needs social help– so everything becomes the next mistake in the string of a pattern of mistakes, instead of viewing things as a stylistic choice or a minor rudeness that they quickly forget about. I’ve never been able to break that pattern in someone’s mind once they’ve started thinking that way.

      Knowing that doesn’t always make it easier to deal with at work, which is where this merry-go-round gets exhausting. Sometimes they’re right and you can take something from that feedback to improve work emails. Sometimes, you end up in a constant downward spiral of someone nitpicking your every word because they think that maybe, if you never use a contraction and never say ‘know’ instead of ‘think’ and add six dozen adverbs and then remove the six dozen adverbs– maybe, if you follow all these rules perfectly, no one will ever be mad at you. You and I both know that’s not true. It’s hard when you’re seeing “person X will never be happy about me asking for the TPS reports, but I can’t do my job without those TPS reports, so why am I spending 5 hours trying to craft the perfect godlike email to make person X happy if it’s impossible? why, if the result is going to be ‘person x resents having to do their job’ whatever I do, can’t I use my normal communication style that’s easiest?” and your manager, who probably doesn’t have the same trouble with person X, is just seeing that you’ve given up on them.

      At that point, I usually try to follow what the manager says at work as far as concrete steps you’ve been given (even if they are the silliest of silly things that take up the time you should be working), say “okay, I’ll take your feedback into consideration going forward so that I’m communicating more in line with what you want”, and mentally file it away in the “find a nearby park for screaming practice because my boss wants me to do stupid pointless things that feel like I’m tearing my teeth out” folder. Yes, it’s endlessly frustrating. No, it probably won’t make things better with your coworkers. But the concrete show of “I’m doing the things you specifically asked me to do, look, I’m doing my best here” may improve things with your boss.

      1. Ducky*

        You’ve nailed the experience exactly. I do try to follow concrete steps, and she’s congratulated me on some of them, but I know I’m never going to reach her lofty standard and can’t hide that fact. Guess I’ll just have to be more explicit about how I’m trying, but I’m going to take the advice above and ask if we can move to having this sort of conversation much less frequently. Prior to this experience, I would have thought comments as soon as possible was ideal, but not at this frequency! I can’t do good work when I’m depressed, and this has really been getting to me.

    14. KoiFeeder*

      Ah, I see you’re living my special hell.

      I don’t have any advice here. I’m autistic too, and I’ve pretty much hit the upper limit of my likability capabilities so this sounds uniquely awful. I’d probably point out that I could spend my entire work time attempting to conform to allistic sensibilities to the best of my ability or I could do the job I’m being paid for, but both is not going to happen. But, as I said, I’m at the upper limit of my capacity on that front.

    15. LGC*

      Hi, I’m a man on the autism spectrum! (Mid 30’s so a couple of years younger than you.) There’s…quite a bit to unpack. Unfortunately, I don’t think this is going to make you feel better.

      I do think that…honestly, your boss should be coaching you on more effective interactions. You say you have “no patience for empty buzzwords or placating egos,” but to be honest – a lot of times you do need to placate egos to some extent. Part of effective communication is getting people to listen, and if they feel attacked (by – for example – being told on a nearly daily basis that people don’t like them) they’re not going to listen to what you have to say. Plus, you yourself admit that you have problems with communication and that your boss is often right! It’s definitely an area that you should improve, and if you’re having nearly daily clashes with your coworkers, it’s urgent that you do so. It doesn’t matter whether you’re interested in it or not – this is something that’s essential to your job.

      But also: I will point out that at no point did I attack you personally by calling you unlikable or saying that people don’t like you. (Okay, I didn’t literally say that. I could take what I said as calling you unlikable, but that’s not what I meant.) I can totally understand why you’re offended by that – if my boss told me people didn’t like me, I’d be mortified and devastated. And if she’s coaching you to be more “likable,” 1) that’s sexist and 2) her boss should be coaching her on effective communication.

  10. AndersonDarling*

    So I have a new paranoia. Whenever a Zoom meeting is wrapping up and some asks for someone else to stay on so they can talk…I’m assuming they want to talk about something I’m doing wrong.

    1. Mr. Cajun2core*

      I don’t blame you for being paranoid about it. I used to be that way and even now depending upon the situation, I can still be that way. You can just tell yourself, “I recognize this as unfounded paranoia. I am good at what I do. There is no reason be believe I have done anything wrong.” I do this and it does help.

    2. CockrOPch*

      I get this too. It helps to try and think “oh, I bet they need to have a super boring chat about something I don’t wanna be part of.” I find if I consciously replace the anxious thought with this, it helps a lot!

    3. Ducky*

      I don’t know about your office, but in mine any extended chat time is exclusively about some project that just those people are working on (as opposed to everyone else attending the meeting) and they’re trying to squeeze in some clarification or something.

      If someone wants to gossip, after a zoom meeting is not the way to go about it!

    4. JanetM*

      Oh, I misread your question. I don’t have that particular fear; I always assume it’s about something technical and possibly unrelated to the current meeting (e.g., Person A says, “Person B, can you hang on after the meeting to talk about a very specific database concern?”).

      My particular fear is that every time I get an unexpected Teams call from my manager, I assume it’s something I did wrong.

    5. homework*

      I’ve been the person asking for someone to stay on and usually it’s because I wanted to talk to them anyway and we’re both right here. Similar to an in-person meeting when you wanted to talk to Fergus about the expense reports after your group meeting about llama grooming.

    6. Charlotte Lucas*

      I work for an organization that loves meetings. This happens a lot when there’s extra time, & it’s always about an unrelated project. Since it can be a pain to log off & log back in, it makes sense to me. But if it were my old job, I’d be paranoid, too.

    7. NW Mossy*

      I like the way my boss handles it: if he wants to spill tea with me after a meeting, he’ll leave and then call me separately. This way, it’s not awkward for unrelated people on the call.

      This way, if he calls me right after we conclude a meeting with others, I get a small amount of warning that he has Opinions about what was discussed. It’s typically not about anyone doing anything wrong, though – it’s usually reacting to something surprising or strategizing how we’ll position a tricky conversation. As a recent example, I’d shared in a meeting that I was getting pushback from an unexpected quarter on my project, so he called me to talk through how he’d help work through that.

    8. Tuckerman*

      It might help to remind yourself that people do this all the time with in-person meetings, too. Or they start to walk out the door and have a quick impromptu meeting 10 feet away, in the break room.

    9. LQ*

      Honestly? It’s so unlikely to be about you. There are billions of topics and you are only one of those topics and so it’s unlikely to be about you.

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Ahh.. I have a history of anxiety myself, and am prone to worrying about things like “this meeting my boss has scheduled with HR, is it about me??” so I can relate!

      However… I’ve been on enforced WFH with occasional office appearances since March (has it really been 3 months?!) so have been on (Teams in my case) meetings for most everything.

      I can tell you that “Jon, can you stay on so we can chat” is 99% because Jon is hard to get hold of, or they have this slot now but Jon generally gets invited to so many meetings – or it’s just convenient to continue the discussion while the other person and Jon are both available, before they get diverted with something else.

      It’s a lack of empathy IMO, because I sometimes make the “Jon, can you stay on” request but I always say what it’s about, like “Jon, can we continue in this meeting after to discuss the email from customer C about ticket 123?”

      (I’m not sure if this will help or hinder!) — if they did want to have a discussion about something you’re doing wrong – which I expect they won’t!! – it would typically be scheduled as a separate thing.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Several things here:

      This is no different than asking someone to come to their desk or office to chat. Just like in actual office spaces, people do this.

      At some point, you can feel free to kick back here- meaning, you can tell yourself, “If there is a problem I can’t fix it until I know what the problem is.”

      Running at the same time, look around. Are there ways you can beef up your work? If yes, start. Now. The way this works is that if you KNOW you are working at your stuff, you will be less likely to believe others are not happy with your work.

      And you can also ask your boss for a 1-on-1 check in. Find out how you are doing. I am a big fan of confronting a fear head on. See, we have a choice. We can let the fear follow us around for days/weeks/months or we can decide to just face it head on.

    12. Kimmybear*

      I get this. Hang in there. Whenever I ask someone to hang on to talk it’s either because the issue is so small that I don’t want to schedule a whole new meeting for it or because one of us has so many meetings, it’s the only time I can grab their attention. (The second scenario is more common.)

    13. PollyQ*

      A two-step thing that sometimes helps me:

      1. Recognize, and explicitly tell yourself, that this is your anxiety speaking. It sounds like you’re already pretty much doing that, since you’re posting here. I know not everyone agrees that splitting up your brainweasels & identity is a good thing, but I’ve found it really helpful when dealing with anxiety & depression to separate the disease from my basic self.

      2. Don’t try to talk yourself into or out of anything, just say to your anxiety, “Hey, I see you. It’s OK.”

      Somehow just recognizing that there’s a part of me that’s out of sorts is far more helpful than trying to wrestle myself into rationality.

      Good luck! Anxiety is a beast to deal with, and I hope someone’s suggestions here are useful.

    14. Lynn Whitehat*

      Oh no. I do this (ask people to stay on the Zoom meeting). It’s never so I can talk about what someone else did wrong. Almost always, it’s because something came up in the main meeting that only a few people care about. I *know* everyone is Zoomed out, and I don’t want to make people for whom the discussion isn’t relevant stay on longer.

  11. Pepperwood*

    When to give notice? Just got an offer and am so glad to have an out to leave my toxic af employer (extreme burnout that led to me seeking therapy, which helped me realize it was unsustainable to stay for my physical and mental health) – and while I didn’t want to give notice until the offer was in hand (official as of this morning!), I’m trying to plan out the timing.

    If I give notice on a Monday for 2 weeks to end on the Friday of the following week, is that still considered a good faith 2 weeks’ notice? I’m probably overthinking but got an offer and signed the offer letter, but everything’s contingent on the background check and drug test (no concerns anticipated, I’m just paranoid about putting in notice and then the offer getting revoked or something). Also not looking forward to telling my boss, ugh.

    1. Ali G*

      Yes giving notice on a Monday and departing the following Friday is fine. It’s still 10 working days, which is all that matters. Giving notice is stressful but it’s a good problem to have!

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yup! That’s the way notice normally goes (at least in my experience)– give it on Monday, leave the following Friday.

      2. Can Can Cannot*

        To be clear, that’s the Monday after you clear your background check and pass your drug screen.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Yes. I’d consider that good faith two weeks notice as long as you give it in the morning and not Monday last thing.

      They’re only loosing a few working hours from a Friday afternoon notification.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I’ve known background checks to take a long time, so I wouldn’t put in notice until you’ve cleared that. I agree with others that notifying on a Monday and leaving the Friday of the following week is fine. But prep for it by cleaning out your desk and personal items, and e-mailing yourself anything personal from your computer before you do it, as some companies will walk you out the door when you resign.

    5. bookends*

      I’ve worked places that require 14 calendar days’ notice in order to have PTO paid out, so you might want to check any relevant policies! A former coworker did a Monday notice to quit the following Friday and got screwed on the PTO payout, so I’d hate to see that happen to anyone else.

    6. Sara(h)*

      First, don’t give notice until the background check is cleared — your instinct around that is correct. You never know if there’s something that could come up, even if it’s incorrect or a mistaken identity issue.
      If that does not allow for a full two weeks of notice, explain to the new employer at that point that you were waiting to give notice until the offer was official and the background check had cleared, just to be safe, and that you would like to give your current employer a full two weeks’ notice, and are requesting a start date of October __ to accommodate the notice period. Hopefully the new employer should respect that and have some flexibility if needed.
      If the background check does allow you to give notice on Monday, that should be fine, but if you have a good relationship with your current employer, the way I would handle it is to say (no matter what time of day it is), “I’d like my final day to be Friday, October 2. I understand that two weeks’ notice would technically bring us to the following Monday, but I’m hoping it will seem reasonable to you to have my last day be next Friday. If you have concerns about this being a few hours (or “a half day” or whatever is accurate) short of two weeks, please let me know as soon as possible so I can look into adjusting my arrangement with my new employer.” (Or something along those lines, a lot of it depends on your relationship with your current employer!)

    7. PollyQ*

      Yes, Monday morning to the following Friday afternoon is normal & fine. However, you should definitely do not give it until all contingencies are clear and you have an official start date.

  12. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I have a three-hour interview this afternoon. Good vibes/happy thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you!

    5. 30 Years in the Biz*

      You’ll do great! If you’re a reader of Ask a Manager you’ve found the tools you need to show your skills and competence and secure the position!! Sending good vibes your way.

    8. Jennifer*

      You got this! They picked you to interview for a reason. Also, plan something fun afterwards. Doesn’t have to be anything too exciting.

  13. Sarah*

    There is a position I’m interested in for an Executive Director, and as I was researching it, I noticed that the chair of the Board is someone I was on a different Board with about ten years ago. I don’t know them too well but is there value in sending a LinkedIn message that says, “I saw XXX was hiring and you were the chair. I know we haven’t spoken since our days with YYY, but I thought I’d let you know that I threw my hat in the ring.” They’re using a recruiter, so I’d go that route for my resume.

    Part two – they have an acting ED, and I’m wondering how often the acting person does NOT get hired. I will likely apply no matter what, but I’m curious what other people’s experience is.

    Finally, for a senior leadership position, does the 1-page cover letter, 2-page resume still hold, or should it be longer?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Have you spoken to the recruiter yet? If so, I would mention to the recruiter that you used to work with the chair and ask whether you should reach out. Ordinarily I would say absolutely, reach out. But because they’re using an external (I assume) recruiter, things get a little hairier, so I would apply first and go from there. Others may disagree, though!

      1. Sarah*

        Thanks. I’ve never worked with a recruiter before, and they are external. Should I apply and then follow up with one of the two the recruiters listed to say I know this person?

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          No, I wouldn’t do that. Apply, then if the recruiter contacts you, you can add that you’ve worked with the board chair in the past– ask if the recruiter recommends you reach out. They may say no.

          I’ll give you my context: I was contacted by a recruiter for a position with a company where I know a TON of people, including a former manager. When I spoke to the recruiter I mentioned that, and she said, “Great! Go ahead and give them a heads-up that you’re applying.” In my experience, going through a recruiter means that most of your communication, if not all, should go through the recruiter, and the recruiter should be made aware of any contact with the company while you’re in the recruiting process.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      Without knowing more about your relationship with the chair of the board, it’s a little hard to advise. That said, I think it certainly can’t hurt to let the chair know that you are interested in the position and that you are applying through the appropriate channels but wanted to let them know as well. The “hat in the ring” phrasing, while I understand it, may cause your interest to come across as a little more casual than you might want, but that’s a stylistic quibble on my part.

      As for how often does the acting ED get hired, it depends on a lot of factors including:
      *is the acting person qualified for the job long term?
      *does the acting person actually WANT the job?
      *what is the acting person’s reputation with the various stakeholders?
      *is there a strong incentive to bring in an outside person?
      *is this viewed as an opportunity to bring in new experience/perspective (could go either way)?
      *how fast do they want to wrap up the search?
      *do they (think they) know what they want in an ED?

      I can think of several jobs I applied to over the last several years that went to the acting/incumbent person. In some cases, that was because the person had prior experience/knowledge of the institution which was deemed helpful. But probably more than that went to external candidates. (The really annoying part is when they fail a search for a position that you’re more than qualified for–in those cases, I tell myself that says more about the organization than it does about my candidacy.)

      As for the last, it depends on your industry, but in higher education, I use a 1.5 page cover letter and a two page resume. Is this for-profit or non-profit? Are there any specific prompts that you need to address when crafting your materials (sometimes you see this more in nonprofits and higher education than corporate environments, although there are sometimes follow-up writing assignments that are given to applicants)? I’d say you were in the ballpark with 1 page cover letter and 2 page resume.

      TL;DR: If you’re interested, I would certainly advise you to apply, regardless of whether you think there’s an inside candidate. Good luck!

    3. TCO*

      I work in nonprofits and I’ve seen a lot of interim EDs not take the permanent position. I’ve seen a couple of common scenarios play out:
      1) An existing employee takes on interim ED responsibilities. Sometimes they don’t even want the permanent role. Sometimes they do want the permanent role but don’t get it. Interims aren’t expected to be able to do the entire job; they’re there to keep basic functions going in the short term.
      2) An external interim ED is hired, sometimes with the explicit understanding that they won’t be applying for the permanent role. There are people out there who really specialize in being great at these short-term roles during transitions.

      Of course, sometimes the interim person does take the permanent role, but the alternatives are common enough that you should definitely apply!

      1. Esmeralda*

        Sometimes the interim person does a mediocre or terrible job.

        Sometimes the interim person is the un-choice of someone with pull, and that person is just itching to get rid of the interim person.

        You never know. Give it a shot!

    4. MrsPeaches*

      I can’t speak to how often someone acting in a position doesn’t get hired for it, but there are definitely situations where it doesn’t happen. Especially if it’s the second most senior employee filling the role in a pinch, they may not be fully qualified or interested in running the entire organization. I was acting director for my department for a minute but was not interested in taking on that responsibility long-term.

    5. Bubbles*

      My husband’s company has an outgoing ED who wants to retire yesterday. They couldn’t find a replacement they liked because the in-house person they wanted did not want the job. So now retiring ED is willing to work “part-time” until December and until then, in-house person who said no has been appointed to interim ED and is very much looking forward to not having to do the job.

      So no, not every acting person gets hired. And sometimes it is one or two people doing the “acting” part.

      I think it would be wise to do part 1! Your message is great.

    6. It's a fish, Al*

      If it helps, I am currently an interim ED and I have no desire to keep the position. I was hired to deal with the mess that the last ED left, so that the new permanent ED doesn’t come into the garbage fire that currently exists. I sure hope my presence encourages people to apply rather than the reverse!

    7. The Rat-Catcher*

      I’m in an agency that has unfortunately been in this position several times over the last few years. Interim is often about “who can do the job right now.” Someone that doesn’t require a lot of onboarding and who is already familiar with the immediate and short-term items to take care of. But that person may not want to be the new director, or the department might take the opportunity to intentionally change the strategic direction, or they might have a chance at a rock star from elsewhere. Their argument that they can do the job because they’ve already been doing it is fairly compelling, but is far from a guarantee. You should apply!

  14. Pain au chocolat*

    How do you deal with dramatic workers that give you the cold shoulder? I feel like I’m walking on eggshells by trying not to upset them, which doesn’t work because they get upset anyways and it’s stressing me out.

    I work in a small department and people give you the cold shoulder if they’re mad, including the boss. They never talk about things or discuss it outright. When I’m out sick and return to the office, my coworker wouldn’t say good morning to me and avoided me the entire day. She’ll then turn it around and act as if I was the one that had the problem! I’m the only one in my department, so no one has to cover for me or do my work.

    My manager is moody and does the same type of stuff. He’s easily offended and frequently makes comments about how people sound mad or “look angry”- He thought that I was mad at him, so he started ignoring my work questions. He and my coworker that I mentioned above go out of their way to leave me out and ignore me.

    They’re all adults, yet I feel like I’m working with children. Do I just wait until they start speaking to me again? If I called a meeting with the boss, we would be in his office every week basically. Do I just ignore it?

    Any thoughts or advice?

    1. Here I am*

      It’s rotten that your whole office is like this. I’ve been in a situation where 1 or 2 people acted this way, and I just ignored it. I asked them work questions if I needed to, said hello when I saw them, and then just left them alone to feel all their feelings until they got over it.

      1. CastIrony*

        Man, you’re braver than I. I worked in a place where the boss would refuse to work with me and give me the info I needed after we had a fight and didn’t let me explain what happened. I would avoid that guy at all costs because I was so scared to get yelled at again. I hope OP gets a new job because it sounds so, so toxic and draining.

    2. Lady Heather*

      The mantra of “I am not here to make friends, I am here to collect a paycheck” can work.
      Or, if they are refusing to help you, something on the lines of “Answering my questions is part of their job. They are not doing their job.”

      I was excluded a lot in school, and the part of that that was worst for me was the humiliation of trying to interact, and being ignored or rejected. When I stopped trying – “I am not here to make friends, I am here to learn and get a diploma” – a lot of stress and unhappiness disappeared.

      When dealing with difficult people, it also helps me to set goals for the interaction, kind of like expectation management. You’re interacting because you need them to give you a file. You’re not interacting to get your social needs met.* If she gives you the file while rolling her eyes, you have met your goal.

      *You are not interacting with this specific coworker to get your social needs met, because this specific coworker is not a nice person. This strategy only applies to annoying coworkers, a difficult relative you need to speak with regarding an elderly relative’s care, and the combative receptionist of the only 24/7 vet in your town. I’m not advocating using this way of thinking on all people.

    3. knitcrazybooknut*

      You feel like you’re working with children because you ARE working with children. This is ridiculous behavior. Here’s something liberating, though: You know that they’re going to be upset with you whether you walk on eggshells or not. So, just don’t! Expect that they’re going to be upset every day. Do your job, and be your professional, friendly-if-you-want self all through the day.

      If your boss asks if you’re mad, just answer him, “no”. Be factual. Don’t get emotionally involved. If someone’s ignoring you, you can do what you want! Get things that you need, and don’t bother engaging in the I’m not talking to you because you took a sick day game.

      Obviously, it’s not as easy as this, but I’d recommend all of the standard coping mechanisms: Pretend you’re carrying a clipboard and wearing a lab coat and observing a strange new culture. Remember that this is just work, and while you get to leave and be a happy person, these folks have chosen to live with this behavior always.

      If you have an EAP, use it. I bet they have even better coping mechanisms at the ready.

      Also – Can you get into another department? Do they behave better?? Figure out your options!

      1. Pain au chocolat*

        I just ignore them because that seems to work the best. Eventually they come around and talk to me. It’s annoying though and I don’t understand the point. I straight out asked someone one time if she was ignoring me. “What? No, I’m just busy” Yet she wasn’t too busy to talk to everyone around me. :Sigh:

    5. PollyQ*

      Medium-Long term: Find another job. This whole office is toxic and is likely teaching you bad habits/ways of thinking. (and yes, they’re acting like badly behaved children!)

      Short term: Quit trying to not upset them, be pleasant and professional in all interactions, and ignore the way they ignore you. Captain Awkward has said that the silent treatment can be a gift, if it keeps people from hassling you. Her other suggestion for cases like this is to ruthlessly ignore all subtext, and only respond to what people actually say.

    6. Hare under the moon with silver spoon*

      Sorry to hear you are experiencing this, your coworkers sound quite unpleasant to be honest. I think it’s important to really take that fact on fully to empower yourself when you need to deal with them.

      You can try treating this situation as project, how to disengage emotionally while still enjoying the parts of the job you enjoy. When they do sulk if you’re off sick (seriously), treat it as evidence of their ridiculous behaviour (we’re in a pandemic!), if someone is curt with you, internally wonder how pathetic someone’s life is they have to take their feelings out on a coworker, if your boss tries some manipulative, blame shifting dance with you take it as evidence that they must be pretty incompetent to need to divert attention away from what really matters. And balance all this extra effort they are putting you through with extra self care outside of work (and times in work day too). Also seconding looking for somewhere else as there are workplaces full of decent people – you deserve better.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      In some cases, not all, I have just ignored that they were ignoring me. And what that looked like was this:

      Me: Good morning, Bob, how are you today?
      Bob: [silence]
      Me: Sure is a pretty day {nasty weather/whatever], isn’t it?
      Bob: [silence]
      Me: I have that xyz report done, I am going to email it to you now. [I walk away, not giving any clue that I actually noticed Bob said nothing.]

      You can think of fun activities such as bumping Bob’s beverage on to the floor. He would suddenly have to speak to you. You will get more ideas here, such as bring your pet tarantula to work and setting down on Bob’s desk for him to see. I bet that would also cause him to speak to you. [Just thoughts, do not actually do these things.]

      The big problem here is the boss, he condones this behavior. One thing I might actually consider doing is going to him and reporting that Bob is giving you the silent treatment and you consider that wildly unprofessional. People don’t have to chat but they do have to be civil and Bob has turned himself into someone who is NOT approachable. The evil thing here is that since the boss does the same thing, you are actually telling the boss about his own behavior. But on the surface you are talking about Bob. Two birds, one stone.

    8. Rainbow Brite*

      Oof. I had a coworker like that once, and it was not fun. I have a lifelong case of RBF but am a generally bright and cheerful person, so I was beyond shocked when this coworker told me that she thought I hated her because — and I quote — “you never smile when you’re just sitting there.” (Which still confuses me, like, am I supposed to be sitting around doing paperwork or whatever and actively smiling, like a serial killer??) The worst part, though, was that she told other coworkers *and some of the kids we taught* that I was miserable, hated everyone, and didn’t want to be there.

      It was weirdly freeing; I’d spent months listening to her endless drama (mostly with her sister-in-law, and in retrospect those conversations should have been their own red flags) and trying to be her friend, but once I realised she was just a ridiculous person, I was able to stop trying. From then on, I kept my interactions with her as minimal as possible, was as bright and cheerful (and smiling, dear god) as I could possibly be for the brief moments when I had to actively interact with her, and focused on building stronger relationships with other coworkers to minimise any potential damage.

  15. otto bimini*

    I just received a request to do a one-way video interview as the first step after submitting resume/cover letter. I hate voice and video recordings of myself. In particular, the thought of talking spontaneously to a computer screen without any interaction on the other side while being recorded fills me with dread. (I have no problem talking on the phone or via video chat. It’s the recording and one-sided nature of this that make me very uncomfortable.)

    Also, based on the job posting, there is a (good) chance this position pays significantly less than what I am looking for, and of course there was no salary info provided.

    So, I’m thinking of just withdrawing my application, but I’m wondering if I should request salary info first instead. Any advice for doing this?

    Also, are these one-way videos becoming more common? I don’t mind walking away from this opportunity, but if it’s likely to come up again I guess I should use this as a chance for some practice.

    Finally, can anyone point to an AAM post on one-way video “interviews” that is more recent than 2012? That’s all I could find, though I feel like I’ve read posts on this topic more recently than that.

    1. 867-5309*

      I can only sympathize. I’m actually confident and good on camera and I freakin’ hate these things. I withdrawal every time because it’s a ridiculous, impersonal way to judge talent for most positions.

        1. 867-5309*

          Late to respond.. sorry! No, but now you have me thinking about it. :)

          Maybe a polite note that says I’m quite interested in the role but feel that the best way to get to determine fit is with person-to-person contact versus a one-way video and if the process is modified at some point to please keep me in mind.

    2. BusyBee*

      I did a one-way phone recording once. I hate recordings of myself and one-way things too, so I was uncomfortable with it. It seemed stupid because the pre-recorded questions didn’t make sense based on the job ad (like asking questions about warehouse experience for an office job). If I get a request to do them I just ignore them now.

    3. Ginger Baker*

      I detest them but had to do one for the job I currently have (which was following the boss I had worked for from one firm to another, so while it was not 100% guaranteed it was…pretty high). Even knowing I was pretty assured the job, it was stressful and UGH. I did give feedback that I really disliked it, but as far as I know they are still using this. :/ I haven’t job-searched (not counting this one) since 2012 so I don’t know if it is more common yet but I sure hope not. The speaking-into-the-void aspect is the worst by far for me.

      1. Emilitron*

        Have you got a friend who could sit next to (or behind) the camera, to silently play interviewer, just to be the person you make eye contact with and help you feel less dumb?

        (caveat, I don’t know how these videos work, is it a “live” meeting with a bot providing questions that you answer spontanously, or is it a list of printed questions that you set up a camera and record your answers to?)

    4. Zephy*

      Ugh, I hate the one-way video interviews, too.

      If you haven’t been in contact with a live human person yet in this process, there’s probably not a good way to ask about salary or anything like that. It’s not a good setup, but companies that outsource their hiring process to automated software get what they pay for.

    5. NW Mossy*

      I’m deeply leery of expecting a video recording of a candidate unless presenting via prerecorded video is a critical part of the job duties.

      Doing these videos is sold as a way to hire more efficiently, but the goal of hiring isn’t efficiency – it’s effectiveness. Hiring the right person is one of the most consequential decisions a manager can make, so it doesn’t make sense to me to purposefully spend a minimal amount of time on something so crucial.

      When an organization’s hiring process shows itself as weak or ineffectual, it almost by definition means that a decent number of people who work there wouldn’t have made the cut in a more rigorous process. I’m at a stage where I want to be choosy and work with people who are truly excellent at their work. A hiring process that shows the manager’s willingness to put the time in to get it right is a useful clue to how they and their org will be to work with and for.

      1. otto bimini*

        The funny thing for me is that I would also hate this if I was on the hiring committee. I don’t want to watch a bunch of videos of candidates. I want to review their written materials and speak with them.

        I imagine I am extreme in this regard. I hate watching video to get information unless the video is necessary to convey the information (e.g. youtube video on how to take off the inside of the driver’s side door in my car = very helpful). For me, video like this demands your complete attention without providing anything to hold your attention. It’s a total time suck with no reward.

        The icing on the cake is that they sent me a link for “what to expect” with the video interview, and the link goes to a bunch of videos! So I have to wade through videos to even get info on how to do my video interview.

        Definitely leaning towards withdrawing from the process.

        1. Filosofickle*

          I’m with you. Video is popular, but unless something benefits from being physically demonstrated I find it slow and ineffective. I read super fast and it’s how I learn best, so it makes sense it doesn’t work for me.

          1. allathian*

            I hear you. My org is big on continuous learning, which I think is a good thing, but I do hate the fact that most of our courses are video based. Luckily I’m in the EU and accessibility is a big thing. For many, accessibility means being able to watch a video rather than read, but for me, it’s the reverse. I work in our communication department, and for some of my coworkers it’s been a real eye-opener when I’ve insisted that I find videos a waste of time, and these are people who mostly write for a living. I’ll watch a video for a course in malicious compliance, but don’t expect me to learn anything from it. I’ll retain the info long enough to be able to answer some questions and pass the course, but it won’t stick long-term.

            If a mandatory course I’m doing offers the option of reading the same materials, I’ll always give the course a high score if there’s an evaluation. If I can read the material and skip the video, I’ll finish the course in half the time it usually takes.

            I don’t even do selfies and I hate being on video, so I would definitely nope out of a recorded video interview.

            For some jobs that involve a lot of presentations or for some jobs in sales, I can imagine that short elevator pitch videos could work. That said, my main worry with video is that it’s very discriminatory. Attractive, presentable people will always do better, and neuroatypical candidates or people with even a slight speech impediment won’t do so well. Not to mention that it’s far too easy to discriminate against ethnic minorities or overweight people, etc. as well…

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Nothing says “you’re just a cog in the mechanism to us” when all the concern is about how the candidate appears and there is NO concern about the candidate liking the group or the job.

    6. Double A*

      My company does this but we are all remote and presenting is part of our jobs, so the format makes sense for us to do. But our hiring managers also know it’s awkward so they’re not super harsh about it.

      I dunno. It’s a little awkward but I also talk to myself a lot so it’s not all that different from that.

    7. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      There was a Washington Post article last year about the analytics company behind all of these one-way video interviews, and how sketchy and potentially discriminatory they are.

      It’s titled “A face-scanning algorithm increasingly decides whether you deserve the job ,” October 22, 2019, and is about the HireVue software being used in these interviews. It’s shady.

      2. BEE*

        I did one of these interviews a fortnight ago. When it started, I felt pretty nervous as I’d never done a one-way interview before, but because I got 3 attempts to record the answer to each question, I felt like I was able to give a better thought out, more concise answer with each attempt. After I’d completed the interview, I was asked to do an online spatial rotation game (I suck at these) as well as a maths game (I am maybe a bit better than average at these) and I felt my performance was ok for both. Within ten minutes of completing the interview, I’d received an email with “Insights” about my responses that were calculated based on my performance and an invitation to proceed to the next round of video interviews, which would be reviewed by a human.

        Overall, it was an interesting experience. I haven’t heard anything back from the hiring company so I don’t know if I’ve progressed any further but it’s a government job and the hiring processes for those always take a ridiculous amount of time. I’m not sure how to feel about being graded by AI for a job application. On one hand, if it removes human bias and incorrect assumptions made about me, that’s great, but there is something sort of creepy and weird about the process that I find unsettling.

        1. allathian*

          Yeah, and the problem with AI is that it’s dependent on the info that’s used to teach it. If that’s discriminatory, the AI won’t be any better. GIGO.

    8. Goatgirl*

      I also hate recordings of myself. Torture!
      I have done two one way video interviews. Both via HireVue which gives you a written question and four tries to record an answer. The first one was really terrible. I didn’t allow myself enough time (the “20 minute” interview took me well over an hour and as time went on I felt rushed, got really flustered and each answer was WORSE than the one before). I actually emailed the hiring person and begged for another chance but no.
      The second time, I realized that I could read the question, record one answer, but then pause the system before trying again. I could make a few notes and compose my answer before trying again. For some reason, that really helped me. And the other thing I did was block the video of myself with a sheet of paper. I guess I’m like a parakeet or something because I was very distracting to myself and it helped to have that blocked. I didn’t get that job either but at least I know that I can do it now.

  16. Anon for this....*

    I’ve been contemplating this situation for a while, but now that it’s closer to a reality, I still don’t quite know how to approach it. I work for a government agency. Our work consists of doing audits of firms in our industry. Our audits are project based assignments. I’m assigned to a firm, given an area to look at and I do my work. My teammates do their work. We turn our workpapers into the project manager who reviews them and provides feedback to each of us individually. We discuss outcomes and how our results might impact each others, but I don’t see my teammates work and they don’t see mine. It’s pretty segmented and silo’d. When our audit is finished, we are assigned to a new firm for a new audit. I may or may not be working with the same teammates.

    We have a few retirements on the horizon and there will be openings at the project manager level. I am very interested in moving into one of these roles, but still have some questions – namely the challenges of the job. Most of the projects managers have said that they are more concerned about who is on the audit team than anything else when it comes to our work. If you get a good team, it will go smoothly. If not, it’s a disaster. The problem is that I don’t know how to find out more about this or ask the necessary questions without getting into performance issues of my co-workers. I’d really like to know who is a problem? What kind of problems do they face? How often do these things occur? While I suppose I could not ask about “who”, our office is pretty small and I’d probably be able to figure out who they are talking about. I have a similar question on the workpaper reviews – I generally don’t receive much feedback on my workpapers and my work is pretty solid. I have absolutely no idea how my colleagues perform in this regard. So it’s hard for me to gage how much of the job consists of review and feedback, and, more important, what kind of feedback. People have up and down relationships with our project managers, so I’m sure there’s more critical review and feedback going on. I’m just blind to it.

    And I should be blind to it. It’s none of my business right now. But when you’re applying for a promotion, particularly a supervisory promotion, how appropriate is it to ask about these things in an interview? I mean, I might not get the job and even if I wasn’t given names, it’s pretty easy to figure these things out. But on the other hand, it’s information that I would want to help me figure out if I even want the job. (If there’s just a lot of critical feedback that the managers have to give, frankly, I’m not sure I’d want to do that job. But if it’s some of the time, I could handle it.)

    I have a pretty good relationship with one of the managers. I think she’d give me a lot of information including names, if I asked. But I don’t want to put her in that position. Another manager would give me higher level information if I asked him, but again, I’d probably know who he was talking about. (And he hasn’t always been discreet in the past, but it’s usually in a positive way… I.e., “One of our auditors is really good at this function … I can tell you, it’s Persephone.”) I’m concerned that just by asking, I might look nosy or out of touch in some way.

    Regardless, if there is a way to ask either of them informally, it would help. Otherwise, any suggestions for what kinds of questions to ask to get at this information in an interview would be helpful! TIA

    1. 867-5309*

      I do not think it is at all appropriate to ask for names or anything that would identify individuals. I would also question the judgment of an interviewer who gave me that information, even if they were my friend or someone I knew well in the organization. Until your get the job that is just not your information to have. What if you interview, get all this information and don’t get the job? Then you have performance details about peers.

      I think you can ask questions about how they deal with challenges and challenging people, how they coach people who are struggling, how often it’s an issue, questions not centered around specific people

    2. Choggy*

      Well, I think you could always ask about the challenges without necessarily needing anyone to divulge names. I think there are challenges with *any* supervisory position, and it’s really all in how you, as a manager, deal with them. Who is to say part of the the project managers issues may be the way they are managing the process, and or the auditors? Have these other project managers been auditors who moved up like you want to do? If not, you probably have a better perspective than they with regard to the work itself, and the processes you follow for a successful audit. You would actually be in a position to create a better process for everyone involved given your experience!

      1. Glitsy Gus*

        Yup, this is my thought. I would go to the first person you mentioned that you get along well with and just ask about the job. Tell her you’re interested in applying to fill one of the positions that will open when folks retire but you’d like to know a bit more about the day-to-day of the job and what kind of issues and challenges are the most common. That is a totally normal thing to ask someone you are familiar with. You can also make it clear that you aren’t looking for her to name names or gossip, just more an idea of the types of issues and problems and how they end up getting resolved.

        Even if you can figure out who she’s talking about, it isn’t gossip or smack talking if she’s sticking to the facts. “Yeah, I will say one of the biggest issues is staying on folks to turn in their audit reports on time. When those lag everything gets harder,” isn’t smack talking, it’s the reality of the job.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      The question here isn’t “who sucks and who doesn’t” the questions are “what does it take to succeed as a project manager” and “what are the challenges?” You can assume that sometimes you’re going to get bad folks on the team — the question is how much of a challenge is that, what can the PM do about that, what kind of resources are available etc. And then you decide whether this is the job for you — if you are only going to be happy if everyone always does their job right and you aren’t going to do well dealing with folks who aren’t as good — then that’s important information that tells you the job might not be for you.

    4. TeaGirl*

      I think asking in a high-level way is OK at this juncture, especially if you have a good relationship and are couching it in terms of “I am looking to move my career forward and I want to make sure I am developing skills to do that”. This would give you a chance to think in advance in the interview about (a) if you have those skills and (b) how you would need to develop/improve them to be successful in the job.

      For me as an interviewer, if someone hasn’t thought about these issues before talking to me, I would be worried that they don’t know what they are walking into, especially if they are an internal candidate. That said, if you can show that you have thought about these issues, but have questions about procedures/training/etc. that is better.

    5. NW Mossy*

      Some questions that may lead you to useful insights, or things you may already know but just not considered in this light before:

      * How are individuals assigned to a given audit? This will tell you how much ability you have to choose/influence who ends up on your team. If it’s little to none, that says you have to be prepared to deal with a wide range in performance. If it’s substantial, that suggests your horse-trading skills with your peers will be crucial to getting the individuals you want.

      * When you say they give feedback, what does that mean? As described, it sounds like it tilts heavily towards quality control – timeliness, accuracy, adherence to process, and such. That’s a different (and more limited) vantage point than a manager giving behavioral feedback to a direct report. In my experience, it’s much easier to emotionally disconnect as someone giving quality-control feedback than it is giving behavioral.

      * What metrics does your boss’s boss pay attention to? They typically won’t be looking at the audit team individually (that’s the job of your boss/their peers), but what the big boss cares about will give you clues to where you’ll be expected to focus your feedback without getting into naming names.

      * How is your performance evaluated outside of project manager feedback? Do you have a boss that remains constant while your PMs change? This is another clue to the scope of what you’re being asked to evaluate others on.

      I’ll also say this: even when you know all the players, people surprise you. I’ve had directs who performed poorly for past bosses but did great for me. I’ve had directs who were a previous boss’s favorite that drove me up a dang tree. You’ll create your own dynamics with people, so you can’t put too much weight on someone else’s.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Most of your questions can be handled in general terms.
      On average how many times a week or a month do you have to speak to people about crummy work? (You don’t need to know names if you are asking for numbers.)
      If there is a difficulty what resources are available for a project manager to use to work on that difficulty?
      How do you feel about the training you received to do your job? (meaning the manager)

      The nuts and bolts questions you show here you will probably be told once you have the job so you know where the problems are.

      I have to say this, unless you are determined to work through problems do not take this job. If you are living in dread of certain people or certain issues, this job might not be a good fit for you.
      Going the opposite way, it’s normal for leaders to worry about things. But underneath that worry is some determination to make things work out in some manner. If you can’t find that ah-ha moment where you think to yourself, “I will just work at it until I get it”, then maybe you shouldn’t apply.

      One thing I’d want to know is if there is a bad worker and the bad worker is so bad they need to leave, how do TPTB handle that? Will you be listened to? Will you be heard? Will you have the authority to fire people if necessary?

      For me, if I do not have the authority to fire, I don’t want the job. And the reason is because difficult people do not listen very well to someone whose hands are tied. This can be new levels of misery.

      One thing I see here is that you are concerned about the people who work there now. New hires are an unknown. At some point you will have to deal with unknowns, there’s really no avoiding it. While you know the names of the people you work with, their work habits and outputs are unknown to you so far. There is always going to be unknown parts when you are a leader.

  17. Anon here again*

    I’m currently in and have been in jobs where it’s like walking into hostile enemy territory. It’s difficult to fit in with the “old guard” (people who have been there for a while) and they don’t like newcomers. I’m also shy and quiet, which doesn’t help. During the interview, they either act nice in front of the boss or are not in the interview, so I don’t meet them until I start.

    My friends and family say that they’re just threatened and to ignore it, but it’s difficult to spend so many hours a day with people that are hostile or outright hate you. I don’t know if they wanted someone else in the position- I try to be as kind and helpful as I can, but I’m getting sick of being treated like garbage.

    Is there any way to deal with this? I find myself ostracized and never quite feel like I fit in with the group.

    1. Aurélia*

      I was in a very similar situation in my last position. The two things that really helped me were chatting-up the most friendly person in the office and also working on a work related/approved certification that required a good deal of online trainings. I hope there is one friendly person in your new office, like maybe the one who’s showing you the ropes? And also that there is some work-related training you can do on the clock. Oh, and that your co-workers get a grip.

    2. LQ*

      The they’re threatened and ignore it can work but I think that makes a lot of assumptions.

      * Find a person to help champion you.
      * Be really good at making other people’s jobs less stressful (this includes turning in work that doesn’t need to be reworked, but also not suggesting a whole bunch of things that are new all the time if they are “old guard” folks)
      * Don’t worry about fitting in (this is a slight difference to the suggestion from family) don’t think of it as you vs them (which is what threatened implies) but think about like “this is who I am and what I bring to the table” (this got much easier for me as I got older – not at all easy in my 20s)
      * Look at the tone of the whole thing – it’s difficult to know what the actual behaviors are here since your notes (fairly so) are pretty broad – are they just a very quiet bunch – do you have a couple people who are very chummy but kind of leave everyone else out of the loop? – do they actually get in your way on stuff or do they just keep to themselves so it feels very cold?

    3. Wintergreen*

      I place a lot of importance on liking the people I work with. I had an old boss that said something that stuck with me. “I better like you, I spend more time with you than I do my kids!” (You was a group of us in the office)

      I’m shy and quiet too. I think a lot of times it’s the quiet part that throws people off. I try and keep a friendly smile. I’ve felt isolated occasionally but I’ve never met outright hostile. But that was for short-term volunteer work. It’s been a long time since I’ve been in a new job.

    4. Kathenus*

      I’ve been in a similar situation as far as old guard/new person dynamics, but I’m on the other end of the personality spectrum and get into trouble by trying to be involved and offer ideas and such and it’s considered ‘less than’ because I’m new and my experience came from somewhere else.

      But I learned something many years ago from a supervisor, when working with a peer that I clashed with. I tried and tried to figure out how to make her like me, doing all the hard work, always being nice in the face of abject rudeness, etc. One day my supervisor said that when working with someone like that, be careful not to “bend over so far backwards that all you do is kiss your own a**”. Basically by trying to do the work to carry both parts of the relationship I was disrespecting myself and not even succeeding because the other person didn’t care about trying to be part of a solution.

      So now my approach is total professionalism, don’t do their part of relationship-building but do everything as well as I can within my role and sphere, and let the chips fall where they may if they won’t do the same.

    5. Not trying to be rude, just good at it*

      Work hard. Learn your craft. Make yourself indispensable. When they realize you are an asset and not a liability to your department and they can count on you, they will warm up to you. You don’t need them, they will discover they need you. It will become apparent when they want a vacation week or sick day and need someone to cover their work. It’s amazing how friendly people become when they need a favor.

  18. Remote Worker FTW*

    I work for a company that until COVID-19 happened, only let certain people work from home and then only one day a week. Since March, many of us have been working remotely and I love it. I’m enjoying the no commute, the money I save from not commuting, the more time I gain with my family, etc. Almost every week somoene is saying they can’t wait till we go back or they hope we can WFH at least 3 days a week, not me I’d like to be remote full time. I really hope we get options, but I doubt we will.

    1. londonedit*

      There’s a real split, isn’t there! We have the same – some people have said they’re not intending to go back to the office at all, whereas others are already back in four days a week (our office has been open since the beginning of the month, but there’s no pressure to go in, it’s personal choice). I started off thinking I’d like to do two or three days a week in the office, but having tried it out when the office reopened, I’m not so keen. I love going to central London and it’s nice to catch up with people, but with Covid cases rising all over the UK, my feeling is that if I don’t have to use public transport, it’s best to avoid it, and leave it for people who *do* need to use it because they can’t work from home. I have to admit, the savings on travel costs are a pretty attractive argument for continuing to work from home, too!

      1. LDN Layabout*

        I have a friend who works at zone 2 GP Hub and another who is MOD and can’t work at home and the feedback from them is, if you’re London and can wfh/commute without using public transport?

        Do it to spare those who can’t.

        1. Remote Worker FTW*

          I’m in the US, and I used public transportation to get to work. It’s pretty efficient (my job pays for the transport, but not the lots parking), but it’s time consuming. When COVID-19 hit a lot of people stopped taking this transportation source, I have no idea how many are now.

      2. Remote Worker FTW*

        A friend of mine in another location and with a different skill set than me, has worked from home for almost 2 decades now. A family member had an office job that became remote, years before COVID-19. It’s apparent now that it’s more traditon and company culture than a need for most people in office jobs to need to be in an actual office.

    2. ThatGirl*

      My company went from most teams having a regular WFH day every week to the new CEO saying it could only be done in limited circumstances on rare occasions. And then covid happened and even after the office has technically reopened most of us are still WFH full-time. While I don’t mind being in the office and some days I miss the social aspect, I really hope this causes leadership to reconsider the ban on regular WFH; for me the ideal mix would be 1-2 days a week to WFH.

      1. Remote Worker FTW*

        I sort of miss the social aspect, but we have a lot of meetings via video conferencing and phone. So I am connected to a lot of people. While I have a lot of skills and could get a job at another company fairly easy during normal economic times, I really like this one. There’s honestly no real reason for most of us to go sit in an office, if anything our productivity is higher working from home (I know mine is, and this is with taking a toddler to and from daycare for socialization reasons and so I can get work done).

        1. Uranus Wars*

          I am in camp would like to WFH 2-3 days post-pandemic. I feel connected now, via Zoom, phone, email, etc. but part of me worries if I’ll still feel so connected if the majority return to the office and not everyone is relying on virtual. Being the only 1 of 10 dialed in vs. 10 of 10 dialed in worries me a bit.

    3. PollyQ*

      Obviously, I can’t predict what your company will do, but I think many more jobs will be remote or remote-eligible in the future. If your current job turns out not to be one of them, I think you’ll have good luck looking for one that is.

      1. CatMintCat*

        I always thought I would like to work from home, but am in a job where it was always thought impossible (teacher of young children). Then Covid hit and we went remote. I hated it. Not just trying to work out how to do it, but the isolation and feeling cut off from my world. When school went back to normal in May I skipped happily back without a backward glance.

        Apparently I’m not nearly the introvert I thought I was.

  19. MaryAnne Spier*

    Just an update about the negotiating question I posted last week…

    I had been offered a teaching job in another school district in the subject area I really prefer. They offered me a salary 10k below my current salary, and I asked them to match it. They said they would get back to me.

    So on Tuesday afternoon, just when I had decided that -10k would be too low and I would turn it down if their offer was firm even though it would break my heart… they called and offered me 4k MORE than my current salary. I was really shocked and had to ask them to repeat that. So I formally resigned from my current job yesterday and I’m really excited for the new job even though leaving my students will be hard.

    Thank you to everyone who told me that it was OK for me to ask for more!

      1. MaryAnne Spier*

        Yes! Thank you!

        But you know what I didn’t expect? How hard actually resigning would be. Now that I’ve submitted my letter I keep thinking about all the great things about my current job that I’m going to miss. I’m attached to a lot of my students, I really like most of my coworkers, my principal is fantastic. I still know that this is the right move in the long run but I’m not good at endings. At all.

        1. Uranus Wars*

          I think this is fairly normal when you are leaving a place you love – exciting with some uncertainty about what you are leaving behind. Best of luck and congrats on the successful negotiation!

  20. EDinTX*

    I applied for a position at a reputable but smaller non-profit and got a call back from an external recruiter asking for me to answer a questionnaire and provide references – ok, no problem. But they are requiring a headshot. Is that typical? It makes me feel gross. I also don’t have one . . . Can I push back without getting bounced from consideration?

    3. Picard*

      are you in the US? If yes, then no, not happening. If not, I do know its fairly common in Asian countries so… not sure?

      1. MrsPeaches*

        I feel all kinds of weird about this. I work in nonprofit development, an area where you definitely want to know that candidates can present themselves professionally, but requesting a headshot feels like it opens the possibility of discrimination.

        But also, if they really want to know what candidates look like, can’t they just look on LinkedIn?

    5. Kathenus*

      Could you respond by asking why they want the photo? And if they double down, maybe mention that you are concerned that it could open them up to legal issues if there was a claim that photos might lead to candidates being evaluated due to legally protected categories?

    6. PollyQ*

      That is so far out of the norm, it makes me wonder what else is wrong that org. Honestly, it’s so weird, I wonder if it isn’t something creepy the recruiter came up with himself.

      But for your question as to whether you can push back without consequence, my answer is “Well… I dunno, maybe not.” I’m not sure what to recommend though. One option is to ask the recruiter directly why they’re asking for this. Another is to go to HR of the org and ask if this is their standard or something the recruiter came up with. If my guess that it was the recruiter’s idea is right, and the hiring org is actually appalled to hear that it’s being done is correct, then raising the issue shouldn’t hurt you. If I’m wrong, then yes, it probably would knock you out of contention, or at least be a mark against you.

      I do think that an org that thinks this is a good thing to do as part of their preliminary evaluation (since once you call people for interviews, you’ll find out what they look like anyway) of candidates is not going to be a great one to work with. Given that, I wouldn’t just go along with it, unless you really need to find a job. Push back a a little, or a lot, or maybe just let them know that you’re not comfortable with that requirement so you’re withdrawing your application.

      Sorry, it sucks that they’re behaving this way.

  21. SpurLeeLoch*

    When applying for jobs, should I not talk about being a single mom? I usually don’t mention my kiddo until I have an offer, but I’ve been reading some varying opinions. I’m home with her during Covid, and that’s a big reason I’m looking for virtual work. Any ideas?

    1. 867-5309*

      Not relevant unless you’re asking for some kind of accommodation, and then you should wait until the offer.

    2. Ducky*

      As I recall, they did a study (studies?) where a man who talked about his kids in interviews was praised and rated highly but a woman doing so was judged not dedicated to her work. I’d like to say things have changed since then (ten years ago, maybe?), but I doubt it.

      On the other hand, you should also be interviewing *them*, so if you can afford to be picky it might be a good litmus test.

    3. Observer*

      What useful (and legal to act on) information does this add to the conversation?

      It shouldn’t be this way, but in many cases this information could hold you back. On the other hand, it’s unlikely to help you. So, I would not bring it up in most cases.

    5. Dino*

      It depends on her age. I see this from the other side of things as a person working in K-12. If you are needing to support her through distance learning and need scheduling flexibility to do that or need to be full remote due to childcare, AND you have the ability to be selective, I say to mention it. I wouldn’t say anything about being a single parent or even give any information on your kiddo’s age or support needs, but a quick mention of having a child at home doing distance learning when asking about the company’s WFH and scheduling flexibility would help you get a more specific answer.

    8. allathian*

      Yes, I would mention it when interviewing the company.
      “I’m happy in my current job but I would like some more flexiblity as a single mom with a kid in remote learning. What kind of flexibility do you offer your employees concerning working hours, core hours if any, etc.”

  22. Middle Manager*

    Highlight of my week with my poor performer who I’ve posted about here before. I’m desperately trying to manage her out of the job at this point after years of training, coaching, warnings, PIPs, etc.

    She outright asked me why I won’t provide her verbatim language for multiple work assignments. As in, she would like to use our weekly 1-1 meeting not to trouble shoot specific items or talk through project status/next steps, but for her to bring a list of emails she needs to send, documents she needs to draft, etc, have me provide her language that is in final form to distribute publicly, and so that she can type it out and submit it as her own work. She’s not a typist or a clerical staff person of any kind. She’s a management level program manager/subject matter expert. I truly cannot understand how someone can have gotten to this level and worked in a professional setting this long and doesn’t stand that it’s wild to ask your boss to routinely do your work for you, including writing your emails for you.

    1. BlueBelle*

      Whoa! That is ridiculious to even ask, can she not fake it like everyone else and search it! LOL! She needs to go. Why is it taking so long to get rid of her?

      1. Middle Manager*

        A combination of some bad upper management (who have mostly moved on now, thank god, who were conflict avoid to the point of absurdity) and the VERY long process of firing a government employee. It is moving now, but it’s going to take a few months unfortunately. At least she gave me some good documentation this week?

        1. BlueBelle*

          Ahh Government, that explains how she reached the level and carried on so long. Managers often seem to be conflict avoiders in government and non-profit. People get to just coast because no one wants to challenge then, coach them, or make the effort to get rid of them.

      1. Middle Manager*

        I told her that she is responsible for providing first drafts of any work assigned to her and that I can edit in some cases (not day-to-day emails, but public documents or sensitive emails, yes). Pointed her back to her position description and the difference between clerical roles and program roles.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          Sounds like a good answer. What did she say? I’m kind of feeling like the biggest issue here isn’t even that she doesn’t know how to write her own emails; it’s that she doesn’t have a clue what it is okay to ask somebody else to do for you and what you really need to at least TRY to do yourself.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would have had such a hard time not staring at her with my mouth wide open. That’s chutzpah right there. Any way to take all of her projects off her plate and just leave her twiddling her thumbs?

      1. BlueBelle*

        A few years ago I hired a LMS (learning management software) admin/ junior instructional designer. After the first month, once she was up to speed on the LMS I gave her the first ID assignment and she looked at me and said “I don’t really want to do instructional design, I am only interested in the LMS.” It took me a few minutes to recover and shut my mouth and stop blinking. Then we had a discussion about all the things she said in her interview and how much of that was true or not and what her future looked like in this company. It took 9 months to get rid of her.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          It’s so weird when that happens! I mean, it’s one thing to have a check-in with your boss and say, “You know, I find that I prefer the LMS part of my job and I’m not super into ID” when talking about general career goals, but you still DO the ID. I once had a meeting where I asked someone about his development in his role and he said, “I want to do what Co-worker does,” I said OK, but what do you think about your current role, and he refused to answer. He started refusing to do work he had promised to do. They fired him much later than they should have.

      2. Middle Manager*

        It was wild, truly.
        In order to fire her, I can’t take her work away from her. I have to assign her a full work load and document that she can’t do it.

        1. ex-DoD employee*

          In my experience, there are many “duffel bags” in government work who would love to have their work taken away. She may be hoping you do exactly that.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Whoa. I could see a person new to their job or to communication with higher-level or outside-the-team people being hesitant about wording of e-mails and so on, but even then, I’d say, “draft something and send it to me, we can discuss it and figure out if it needs changes.” There’s no excuse for someone who’s been working in this kind of role for years.

    5. Bad Hare Day*

      Your employee needs to find a new job. Perhaps she would get along with my first boss, Karen? Karen wanted me to print out all my emails first thing every morning, then she would dictate what should my response should be. I’d type it up, print it out again, and bring it to her so that she could yell at me and call me stupid if I made a typo or if she had changed her mind. I also had to type mailing addresses on a typewriter because no one knew how to use the printer for labels and we couldn’t possibly try to figure it out, we might break something. Yes, this was in the 21st century!

  23. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    I’m back at work full-time this week, after months of WFH and and then a delightful two weeks of 4 4 hour days (seriously. If I was a billionaire and still wanted to work, 2pm-6 would be my schedule). It’s…hard. I like my schedule (4 days of 1:30-10pm, Friday 9-2 with a 40min-1.5hr commute), and definitely prefer it to 9-5 (so not a morning person), but like…40 hours a week+commute is a lot of time. This is the first time both my partner and I have been working full-time at the same time, and completely opposite schedules so we never saw each other. There’s not time to cook. I’m remembering how quickly weekends fill up when you’re working full-time in the weeks. Ugh, the adjustment is just hard.

    1. Ali G*

      It is hard! I spent a year volunteering and working part time. When I got my current job, I started on a Wednesday and by Friday at noon I was exhausted. It gets better!

    2. MaryAnne Spier*

      I’ve been remote since mid-March and next month I have to start going in again. I have no idea how I’m going to handle that! I’m so not a morning person and I’m finally getting enough sleep, plus plenty of cat time. I’m going to try to make myself plan/cook meals to put in the fridge and freezer on the weekends so I don’t have to try to cook for myself much during the week.

      1. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

        Oh yes, my menagerie has been very happy the past few months! I’m thinking that Soup is gonna be the way to go for meal-planning for me (and my partner loves soup and makes it a bunch). Super easy to make a huge pot and freeze most of it, and then it thaws fast when you don’t feel like cooking from scratch. But I miss, like, having something in the oven while I worked and just needing to take 5 minutes now and again to make sure it’s not on fire, instead of having one weekend day be Big Cooking Day

        1. MaryAnne Spier*

          I’m going to have to bust out the crock pot again. I’m in New England and it’s about to get chilly. We have an instant pot too, so I could multi-task. I’m going to start counting macros to try to lose weight, and that requires a lot of pre-planning too, so I’m seeing some weekly meal prepping marathons in my future. But I’m going to miss my cat time and having lunch with my boyfriend every day. He’s remote until the new year.

    3. Filosofickle*

      Oh, I feel for you. I recently applied for “regular” jobs after many years of setting my own schedule and creating a life around my desire to sleep in and work half time. There are some good reasons to do this, but I dread how hard it will be to adjust and regain the stamina if I do go back to that life. At least right now there would be no commuting, which is the only reason it’s even possible. In my 25 year career I’ve never been able to have a full time job AND enough energy for a life and sanity. It seems like I can only do one or the other.

  24. Old Admin*

    Hubby (who is not from the US) will start a job as ground crew at an airport pretty soon.
    This is a union job, and he thinks that means he will get a written JOB contract (not the union contract).
    I think the one doesn’t have anything to do with the other! What do the commentors think?

    1. Teacher Lady*

      I have no experience with that particular line of work, but as a unionized employee, my “contract” is the collective bargaining agreement between the union and my employer (the school district/city), and it defines working conditions. I do not have a separate “job contract” that guarantees any type of employment length or other terms – everything pertaining to the agreement about my work is in the “union contract.” BUT, I don’t know for sure whether this is the norm; the only unions I have experience with are teachers unions.

      1. Teacher Lady*

        I guess the one thing is that although the progression from being a provisional employee (in my district, this means an employee who has worked for the district for 0-3 years) to a permanent employee (4+ years) is outlined in the collective bargaining agreement (“union contract”), technically I did have to receive letters each year from the school district confirming that there was “reasonable certainty” that I would be hired again the following year (this was in February) – but again, that’s because that procedure is spelled out in the CBA and is standard in my district, not because of anything particular about MY personal employment. If I had ever not been rehired for the following year during my provisional period, they would have had to send a letter specifically stating so.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      When I’ve been in a union, the contract was with the union ( that’s why it’s called “collective bargaining”), not individuals. He should get a handbook outlining the agreement & the name of his steward. The steward can help answer questions he has about the contract.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      My dad was a union steelworker for his entire career and he never had a contract. The union contract is the contract.

    4. SunnySideUp*

      No, very doubtful he’ll get anything besides his union contract. Good for him! I’m union all the way!

    5. noahwynn*

      I work for an airline. He will not have a job contract, but will be covered by any Joint Collective Barganing Agreement between the airline and the union. Also, assuming he already knows this position is union, but the majority of ground crew positions at the airport are non-union and many are not even directly with the airline but with a third party.

    6. Double A*

      I have had an individual contract in the union jobs I’ve had, but they are teaching you need to commit for the year, every year, so that is pretty different.

    7. Old Admin*

      Thank you for all your answers!
      Yes, the position is definitely with a specific union that even mentioned hubby’s direct employer (an airline) in articles on their web page. The hiring manager even told him about the union steward contacting him in 30 days.
      I’ll tell hubby he can look up the collective bargaining agreement with them.
      So, aside from the collective bargaining agreement, can the union help or negotiate in case of layoffs etc.? This being aviation, we fear the job might suddenly vanish again if the plague picks up again…

      1. acmx*

        The CBA will have the furlough terms already. The union will provide representation for your husband if he files a grievance against his employer or if his employer needs to discipline your husband.

        1. Glitsy Gus*

          Yes, this is how it would work. There may be some communication that comes straight from the employer, including on boarding stuff that outlines the job, etc. But any negotiations will go through the Union. If you husband ever has an issue with his job, when in doubt he should communicate via email and always cc his Steward. Chances are the Steward will go over all of this with him when they contact him, including the best way to reach them when needed and if there are any especially contentious situations to keep an eye out for.

  25. George Litefoot*

    I’m a newer manager (since January 1) and I’m having trouble with one of my employees.
    She regularly calls in sick and keeps mentioning applying for FMLA for illnesses that do not exist. She says she has three chronic illnesses: morgellons disease, chronic lyme and multiple chemical sensitivity disorder. But none of those are real illnesses. The documentation she has given me is from a naturopath but naturopathy is illegal here (you can’t act as a naturopath, call yourself an ND, treat people or use your certification from another place here).

    Our firm has unlimited sick days with a note being needed if you are off more than 10 days but looking at past data from my division she takes more than 3 times the amount as everyone else. Notes show the old manager told her she had to get documentation from a real doctor but didn’t do anything beyond that. He notoriously checked out the last two years before he retired and left a few problems, her being one of them.

    I’ve told her she needs to give documentation from a doctor and not a naturopath due to the excessive time off she takes but she says doctors are ‘liars’ who tell her she is healthy when she isn’t. She says she almost died from adrenal fatigue, which is not a real illness, and doctors ignored her and she used traditional Jamaican remedies back home for a cure (her words).

    I’ve tried to have understanding due to the pandemic because things are hard for everyone but this can’t continue. She’s missing too much work and it was a pattern before I came on as a manager. It’s also difficult for me because I didn’t work at this firm before I was a manager and I only had 2.5 months of working in person with my employees before we all started working from home. The amount of time off she takes has caused my other employees to be upset when it affects them. I guess I’m struggling with trying to be compassionate for her while also trying to enforce something that was not previously enforced.

    1. BlueBelle*

      Yikes. “this is company policy” and then if she tries to talk her way out, as in “doctors are liars.” You respond with “this is company policy and you must submit documentation from a doctor by X date or Y will be the consequence.” As long as HR is backing you up, that is. Good luck!

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Oh, I’m sorry, that has to be difficult. I think framing it as following the company policy is the right way to go. I had a student try to get special accommodations from me without going through the appropriate channels and pushed back when I wouldn’t. I reminded her the policy and process existed to protect her and other students from individual teachers making their own rules about accommodations and applying them inconsistently and perhaps unfairly. Best of luck.

    3. Bagpuss*

      I think you need to talk with HR about what other options are available – for instance , are you able to address her poor performance, rather than her high use of sick leave? Or whether there any policies which allow for you to assess whether her illnesses mean she is no longer capable of doing her job? (Where I am, it’s possible for someone to be dismissed on capacity grounds if they are no longer able to do their job, due to illness or disability – usually preceded by an assessment as to whether they would be able to do it if there were accommodations made – so it might be worth exploring whether (for instance) a part time role, shortened hours or other accommodations might fit better with her health issues.
      If you are legally allowed to require medical evidence , talk to HR about what the next steps are if she can’t /won’ provide it. Again, here, you can’t compel someone to provide medical information but if they chose not to, you can make decisions based on the information you do have, including the fact that they have declined to provide medical evidence to support their statements.
      As an aside – you say “none of those are real illnesses” – I would be cautious about how you refer to the actual conditions as unless you are a medical professional, you aren’t really qualified to say whether they are real or not, (for instnace, Lyme Disease is absolutely a real illness (she may not have it, but it is a real illness,!) and some people do end up with chronic or long term symptoms, so while (as I understand it) ‘Chronic Lyme Disease isn’t the accepted medical terminology, it may reflect a genuine illness) — focus on how her absences affect her work and on what evidence she provides of any medical needs.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        “As an aside – you say “none of those are real illnesses” – I would be cautious about how you refer to the actual conditions as unless you are a medical professional, you aren’t really qualified to say whether they are real or not, (for instnace, Lyme Disease is absolutely a real illness (she may not have it, but it is a real illness,!) and some people do end up with chronic or long term symptoms, so while (as I understand it) ‘Chronic Lyme Disease isn’t the accepted medical terminology, it may reflect a genuine illness) — focus on how her absences affect her work and on what evidence she provides of any medical needs.”

        Yes – this.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Yes, this – Per NIH, Morgellons is a real disease as well. 2018:

          “Recent studies from that point of view show an association between MD and spirochetal infection in humans, cattle, and dogs. These investigations have determined that the cutaneous filaments are not implanted textile fibers, but are composed of the cellular proteins keratin and collagen and result from overproduction of these filaments in response to spirochetal infection. ”

          That said, it is fair to require a doctor’s care, not a naturapath.

        2. Elizabeth I*

          Seconding this!

          Lyme disease is REAL. I had (or possibly still have?) Lyme disease. Testing is notoriously bad (lots of false negatives), plus it can be very hard to get rid of Lyme because of how the bacteria operates in the body – and as a result, you can’t actually prove it’s gone, unfortunately. So even if you think you’ve gotten rid of it, it’s possible there’s still some bacteria hanging out in your body that your immune system is keeping in check – and it can flare up again later if your immune system is compromised by something else.

          Also, I just wanted to note that while adrenal fatigue isn’t an official medical disease, HPA axis dysfunction is, from what I’ve been reading recently – and it’s possible that she was not told the correct term for the illness that she has. That doesn’t mean her illness isn’t real!

          Look, the thing is – immune system issues can be VERY VERY complicated. We are in the middle of figuring a lot of this out right now – the medical community is learning more everyday and making breakthroughs bit by bit. But meanwhile, doctors often don’t have the answers, doctors might be trying new treatments that seem to work without really understanding why or how a particular health issue works, and a patient might not know the precise medical terminology to talk about their condition. That doesn’t mean that the patient’s health issues are fake/imaginary/not real! People are suffering and muddling through and trying to get better as best they can, based on the limited medical knowledge we have today. And they don’t need your scorn on top of the that, please.

          1. E.J.*

            Chronic Lyme is not the same thing Lyme Disease. Lyme Disease is real but Chronic Lyme is not the same as that.

            If she was truly in adrenal crisis or dying, home remedies would not ‘cure’ her and fix the problem. She would have died without actual medical intervention.

            She might be ill but all the doctors she sees say otherwise and the diagnosis she has said she had are made up and not recognized by the medical community. If the employee can’t provide credible documentation from a real doctor OP should take appropriate action.

            1. LavaLamp*

              I really encourage you to stop and think about why you’re arguing so heavily about this. . SO MANY people said similar things about my mom who was very ill.She had fibro (back when it was hotly debated in the medical community) among other things. She passed away, partly due to attitudes like this. It’s not our job to gate keep, or make others feel badly about illnesses that are being argued about in the medical community. Doctors come back all the time with new information that makes previously ‘non real’ diagnosis real. Treating people with kindness is more important in this situation because we aren’t this person’s doctor, or a fraud investigator. If you were sick and no one believed you how would you feel?

      2. Dust Bunny*

        My cousin’s husband died of Lyme disease. I don’t know if it was technically chronic or just undiagnosed and therefore inadequately treated, but they didn’t find it until the autopsy (he had been tested for it before but it didn’t show up). He died suddenly, in front of their kids, I guess of Lyme carditis. It was horrific.

        1. E.J.*

          Chronic Lyme is not the same as Lyme Disease. No one dies from Chronic Lyme because it’s not a thing. I’m sorry about your cousin’s husband.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            While Chronic Lyme is not a thing, Lyme Disease can sometimes have long-lasting after-effects (much the way Covid 19 does, or scarlet fever used to), and that may be what she’s referring to by an by incorrect title. Just because she doesn’t have the medically correct terminology doesn’t mean she’s not sick. (She may not be sick. Or she may be. But whether or not she has the right names for things doesn’t prove it either way.)

    4. Anonymouse*

      She says she has three chronic illnesses: morgellons disease, chronic lyme and multiple chemical sensitivity disorder. But none of those are real illnesses.

      Please be careful with statements like this. I am not familiar with Morgellons, but chronic lyme and multiple chemical sensitivity are currently disputed. However, there is a LONG history of symptoms, especially women’s symptoms, being ignored or discounted by the medical community, and being dismissed as psychosomatic or the result of hysteria or mental illness only for, decades later, actual diagnoses to be discovered, accepted and applied. This has happened with multiple diseases and disorders over the last century, including multiple sclerosis and some forms of epilepsy.

      Don’t focus on whether you believe her diagnoses are fake or not, in fact, don’t even bring it up, focus on the documentation needed to satisfy company policy.

      1. No Name Yet*

        Yes, this. I have a family member whose multiple sclerosis was diagnosed 10+ years after her first symptoms, quite literally because physicians thought she was having a hysterical psychosomatic reaction. And given the mention of Jamaican remedies, having symptoms being ignored/minimized is even more common for women of color.

        That being said – I assume company policy is that a licensed medical provider has to sign off on FMLA. So she may not trust physicians, but it’s also totally reasonable to need someone besides a naturopath to sign off.

      2. Nita*

        I know someone who battled what, for all she knew, looked like chronic Lyme disease for several years. She went from very fit to barely able to function, and had to leave her job because of it. It was a long time before doctors figured out what was really wrong. It wasn’t Lyme, but a co-infection picked up at the same time from the same tick bite. Once she got the initial Lyme diagnosis, no one thought to check if there’s anything else (despite the fact that she wasn’t responding to the standard treatment). So for several years, she said she had chronic Lyme. She wasn’t lying, it was the truth as far as she knew at the time.

    5. AGD*

      Definitely not real illnesses. There may be understandable reasons why conventional evidence-based medicine has pushed her away (either individual mistreatment or implicit bias or both), and/or why she has one or more conditions that are tricky or subtle to diagnose, but yeah. These labels mean nothing, because they’re made up. Many doctors and specialists exist, and it’s appropriate to tell her to try again with someone with standards.

    6. Come On Eileen*

      I urge you to get away from statements about whether her diseases are real, because this won’t do you any favors as a boss. You aren’t a doctor (are you?) and researchers are looking into things like Morgellons and Lyme disease every day. There’s debate about whether Morgellons is a physical disease or psychological, but even psychological disorders need treatment — if someone needed time off for depression or anxiety, would you scoff because it’s more psychological than physical? Please, please, focus on her work performance and let her manage her own health.

    7. Observer*

      Please don’t get into whether her condition is “real” or not. It’s counterproductive.

      Stick to the the documentation issue and use more neutral language. Don’t tell her that naturopaths are not real doctors – a lot of science based people would differ with that, and in many jurisdictions they are treated like MDs – with very similar qualifications and requirements to practice.

      What you CAN and SHOULD tell her is that “Here naturpoaths are not licensed to practice, and our company policy requires that medical documenation be from licensed medical professionals.” Also, if she brings up FMLA again, you should absolutely find out what your company policies are and what paperwork she would need, and then the next time the issue of her illnesses comes up, tell her “You mentioned FMLA. This is what we require for you to be able to take it. Here is the paperwork you need to fill out and here is what we need from a medical professional.”

      If at any point she starts talking about how doctors are liars, etc. don’t engage in that. Just tell her that you need something signed by someone who is licensed in order to comply with both the law and your company policies.

      1. Observer*

        I should clarify that I was talking about Naturpathic Physicians, not a Traditional Naturopath.

        But, as others have noted, the fact that she may not use the precise language is annoying bit not really relevant.

    8. Choggy*

      Without actual documentation from a medical doctor, I don’t think she would have a leg to stand on should you decide to manage her out. Of course, you would need to do this carefully without targeting her illnesses but her absences and work performance. You should absolutely have HR involved with the plan as this is something that should have been handled years ago, and should not be left to continue. This is the type of situation that causes incredibly poor morale for the rest of the staff, and may even prompt some to leave because of it. It’s not easy, but it can be done.

    9. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Don’t bring up (your opinion on) the validity of her diseases – that’s not relevant. If your company policy requires that she get a note from an actual MD physician to authorize extended time off, then she has to get a note from an actual MD physician to authorize extended time off. If she doesn’t do that, extended time off will not be permitted and disciplinary action will be taken. End of.

      Applying for FMLA requires documentation be signed off by a legally authorized physician. If she can do that, great. If not, then the extended time off is not approved and disciplinary action will be taken.

      1. LavaLamp*

        Please don’t bring up or even let the thought of ‘these diagnoses aren’t real’ to color your dealings with your employee. You’re not a doctor of medicine, and women especially are often told they’re making shit up.

        Also; if she does get proper FMLA certifications do not discriminate against her because you still think she doesn’t need them. You’re setting yourself up for failure here.

        You need to have a sit down with HR; discuss what policy is, how to manage her breaking that policy and document without your opinions of her medical issues coming into play.

    10. Malarkey01*

      You are new to the firm, before doing anything else you should talk with your boss and HR. Some of the language you’ve used here about “real illnesses” and the fact that this is a long standing issue that was being handled (potentially badly) by a previous manager open you up to some potential liability. Everything varies by state, but you also have a company that was previously accepting her doctors notes and is now shifting to enforcing policy. That can be fine if done correctly, but it can also go sideways. Make sure you are aligned with your manager and HR and understand if they will stand behind this as a company policy (this is so true when you are new since every company has POLICIES and then also oh the policy is x but we actually do y) that becomes important if you aren’t treating medical exemptions consistently.

    11. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’ve tried to have understanding due to the pandemic because things are hard for everyone but this can’t continue.
      Okay, I don’t know what to think about ‘morgellons’. Rationally I’ve ruled it out, (but I did once, shame on me, go down the rabbit hole of “is this morgellons real?”… ans: no, ultimately — but I’ve gotta shamefully admit I still look in from time to time on morgellons forums, in the way that I look in on other conspiracy forums. Now with a skeptical viewpoint tho.)

      There is a link between Lyme (a real syndrome) and ‘morgellons’ admittedly.

      I’ve also researched adrenal fatigue myself, even became convinced at one point, but I’m now ambivalent about that.

      I think you need to get her to produce a certificate from an actual doctor… because “morgellons”, “adrenal fatigue” etc are theories but not someting you can document.

    12. Anon for this today*

      I’m a retired doctor.
      All three diseases listed by the the OP’s employee are disputed in the medical community, especially Morgellons (currently considered a psychiatric syndrome).
      HOWEVER:
      It’s neither here nor there what diseases exactly the employee in question is listing:
      – The diseases might be misdiagnoses for very real symptoms of something else (e.g., “hysteria” was and is a laughed at catchall for very real gynecological issues). The OP therefore must address the need for documentation by a medical professional as required per company policy.
      – If the employee fails to provide documentation in a form recognized by the company, the credibility of the diagnoses is irelevant. The employee should face fair but consistent consequences, right up to termination for her long term performance issues.

      I remember a post about an employee who claimed to have a “real disease” (stomach cancer) to get all sorts of perks, and who never provided real proof from a medical professional – he later turned out to be a liar.
      The big issue here as well was a lot of time off and pay he shouldn’t have gotten. The nature of the unproven diagnosis doesn’t make difference, so let’s not get any deeper into this.

    13. MacGillicuddy*

      Lyme disease is absolutely a real illness. And when an infected person is NOT diagnosed initially and treated (many people bitten by an infected deer tick do NOT exhibit a bulls-eye rash), Lyme disease can produce a range of neurological problems weeks, months, or even years later. This is sometimes referred to as “chronic Lyme disease”.

      Over the past several years there has been new research in the areas of Tick-borne diseases. In the past, there has been a problem with lack of knowledge, both in the general public, and even with medical professionals who practice in regions of the country where these diseases are rare.

      This is a REAL illness and I take issue with you calling it fake. You do a disservice to people who actually have Lyme disease. I live in a region of the country where it is prevalent and can assure you that it is real. Look at the science.

      Your approach should be making sure that the employee provides the required documentation for requests of leave, not questioning whether she is actually sick.

      1. E.J.*

        Lyme Disease is indeed a real illness. And it is awful. But Chronic Lyme is not the same thing. It does not exist. OP isn’t saying Lyme Disease isn’t real. He’s talking about Chronic Lyme which is a completely different thing.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          Lyme Disease does not have a chronic variant. But it can trigger long-term problems like fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, or something that looks a lot like post-polio syndrome. I’ve known two people with Lyme and they both had long-term consequences from the disease… diagnosed and confirmed by actual MDs, unlike the employee in this situation.

          Whatever she is calling it, it is entirely plausible that she had Lyme Disease and then had long-term consequences which she attributes to that illness and therefore thinks of as an ongoing, chronic case. It doesn’t matter if she’s got the correct name for it… what matters is that she DOESN’T have the correct documentation. All the rest is noise.

          So George Litefoot, drop the whole concept of whether her illnesses are real or not. Work on the assumption that they’re real, even if called by the wrong terminology, because it’s not going to be useful to you to do otherwise. But you’re certainly entitled to tell her that unfortunately, company policy does not allow for anyone except an MD to sign the relevant paperwork, and therefore she will need to get you a copy that’s signed by the correct type of practitioner if she wants to access the benefit in question. If she’d rather drop her claim than see one of those “liars,” of course, that’s up to her, but those are her only choices.

    15. Jellybeans*

      Chronic Lyme Disease is not recognized by mainstream medicine, but Chronic Fatigue Syndrome absolutely is, and it’s very common for people who had Lyme Disease to develop it. While you definitely have the right to stand firm on requiring official medical documentation, please let go of the idea that she’s imagining her illness. Many chronic illness have been historically dismissed as hysteria or mental illness, and even if she does have mental illness, she deserves the same consideration as she would for a physical illness.

    16. LGC*

      Woof.

      At this point, there’s a few things I’d consider:

      1) I’d work on a PIP suggesting concrete improvements. As in – her work is suffering because of her attendance issues and because things are getting dropped. Y’all can work from home, so therefore…she can find a way to provide some sort of coverage and not drop so many balls.

      1a) I would not do that right off the bat if you haven’t said anything about her attendance before – I’d talk about her attendance first with her, and say that it’s been causing problems. It’s something I’ve just learned – the problem isn’t that the employee is sick, it’s that the employee isn’t here and it causes cascading problems when they’re not here (and I’m usually frantically covering).

      Your problem isn’t that she’s out sick per se. It’s that she’s not meeting standards because she’s out sick.

      2) More importantly – this is something I’d consider having the HR person (or the person who serves HR functions) handle. They’re probably better equipped to handle things and what she needs.

      As an aside: I personally agree that Morgellons isn’t a formally recognized illness (ditto for chronic Lyme, adrenal fatigue, and multiple chemical sensitivity disorder). But…it sounds like you’re doubting that she’s sick, which is extremely problematic. I would tread really carefully about saying anything to that effect – because it could make other employees overly cautious if they become chronically ill. (Another commenter wrote in about this issue where she saw other employees treated poorly for taking disability. Don’t be that company.)

    17. Not So NewReader*

      I have found it to be necessary to avoid getting down in the weeds about my subordinate’s health.

      If you are telling her that her diseases are not real, then you are getting down in the weeds. This is way too much involvement in their lives and it will only cause you consternation and other miseries.

      Keep it simple.”The rules are after x days you need a doc’s note on letter head from an MD.”

      What I see missing is what happens if they don’t have a note? The only way this stuff works is because of follow through. It looks like someone kept letting her come back to work with no note or an inadequate note.

      In my old workplace the rule was to have doctor’s note for 3 days or more of absence. If you did not have the note you were not allowed in the work area. If you went to your work area without presenting a note you had to go back out and present your note, immediately. If you were a silly person, who did not have a note, you were told to leave and not return until you had a note.

      Make sure you can send her home if she has no note. Then, once you have your answer, let her know the next time she is out x days, she will not be allowed in her work area until she has presented a note from an MD. This is done and over.

      When she says, “but, but, but”, which she will probably do, just calmly repeat the message, “The next time you are out for x days you must have a doctor’s note to return. If you do not have that note you will be told to leave and not come back until you have one.”

      And brace yourself. Because it is reasonable to expect she will be out in 9 day stretches rather than 10 day stretches. With this in mind, it is best to get together with your boss and develop a plan. Follow the plan to the letter. Keep your boss looped in as you go along. The rationale to use with your boss is that her absences are excessive and it’s pulling down morale as she is routinely allowed not to show up for work.

      I am a big fan of doing alternative stuff… if one is actually getting results. If she were actually getting results she’d be at work. She’s not getting results. While I could go down her path in a conversation because of my life experiences, I would chose not to as I am advising you to do here. And the reason is that I am her boss not her practicioner. Same thing with medical docs, we are their bosses not their medical doctors.

      For arguments sake, let’s say she is 100% correct about everything. What does that get her? She is still a person who does not show up for work. And you still have to deal with that part. Get your boss looped in and build an action plan.

    18. Anon. Scientist*

      This attitude that it’s not real if the name is wrong makes me crazy. I have a mystery thing that means that at irregular intervals (from 3 months to a year) I get utter muscle exhaustion and can barely get up a flight of stairs, and i sleep at least 12 hours a day. Also my whole CNS goes in the toilet and I’m an emotional wreck. The episode may linger for up to a month, but I’m usually housebound a couple of days at most. If I don’t have this mystery thing, I’m the energizer bunny. Luckily for me it’s obvious what the difference is and so people can see there’s something clearly wrong with me. I’ve been tested for every chemical imbalance you can think of (and Lymes and other pathogens) and my bloodwork is fine. If I exhaust my PTO and need a diagnosis for STD, the doc may well throw up her hands and say “chronic fatigue syndrome”. Doesn’t mean I’m faking anything.

      1. pancakes*

        Yes, but for the employer of someone who suffers from a comparable mystery thing, there’s a big difference between an employee who can say “here’s a letter from my doctor that affirms I need time off” and “my healer says I need time off.” The specific diagnosis or lack of is beside the point, and not the employer’s business either way.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          Yeah, I don’t see many (if any) commenters complaining about the requirement that she has to have a letter from an actual MD. That’s completely legit. But there’s two separate issues here: whether George Litefoot can reasonably insist on an MD instead of a naturopath to sign the forms (which is a pretty easy yes), and George Litefoot’s apparent belief that she’s not really sick just because the names by which she calls her illnesses are not conclusively proven by science.

          I have severe fibromyalgia. At the time I first began having symptoms, there wasn’t even a name for that yet, and to this day I occasionally see doctors who insist that it doesn’t really exist. It took me twenty years to get an accurate diagnosis, and while the other disorders with which I was misdiagnosed for those years were medically recognized, I could easily imagine myself latching onto a theory that seemed to match what I was feeling if nobody in the formal medical community seemed to be able to define it or help me with it. If you’re suffering and nobody can tell you why, you’ll start trying to figure out for yourself, and you may come up with some pretty weird ideas in sheer desperation before you hit on the correct one.

          It’s not George Litefoot’s place, as her boss, to judge whether she’s really sick or not. Assume that she is suffering, without worrying about what exactly she suffers from… as others here have said, even if it’s mental in nature, mental illnesses are unquestionably real in their own right. Accept her suffering as axiomatic, and don’t worry about the whys… they’re not the boss’ business.

          Her attendance record and the documentation that goes with it ARE her boss’ business. Stick to insisting that she is required to submit an actual doctor’s letter if she wants to be excused for these absences, and don’t get into the question of whether or not she’s really sick, even in your own head.

  26. MissGirl*

    How to know when it’s time to move on.

    I have serious FOMO and even more serious anxiety and those are constantly duking it out. That makes it hard to make a decision. I’ve worked as a ski instructor for nine years. Each year I say it’s my last one and each year I decide to go one more year. I have a plethora of reasons to stay and a plethora of reasons to go. One thing clouding my decision is this particular job exacerbates my anxiety like nobody’s business but keeping me is the fact I can ski for three days and take home $1000. If I take a season off and go back, I lose all my benefits that accrue each year and start at the bottom.

    Usually I make a decision and live with it for a bit to see if it’s the right one. Last night I decided to accept and felt good and promptly woke up and felt awful. I can’t bring myself to make a decision and I have to today.

    *In case it comes up, they have made changes for COVID. I will never be inside with the students. They’ve shortened the day so we’re always outside. I can dress in my car and avoid the crowded locker room. I think there’s less risk than working in retail or teaching.

    1. voyager1*

      I was a ski instructor for 3 winters when I was much younger. I had a PSIA certification even. It is really hard work, especially the two weeks when kids are out of school. I would love to know what is wanting to make you quit, but if getting a seasons pass is what is holding you back, can you afford a pass on your own? I loved the pro form benefits too, back in the day. It made buying ski gear affordable.

      You say the job really impacts your anxiety, umm ski instructing is working with the public. I am curious how you got through the last 9 winters? Is it COVID that is making you nervous? It isn’t easy to social distance on a lift chair.

      1. MissGirl*

        I first started during the recession when I couldn’t afford a pass now I can. My anxiety stems from several things and has grown over the years: I once got injured and had to have surgery, my confidence in my ski skills and social skills, constantly having to drive in the dark in a blizzard up a narrow canyon, bringing COVID home. Then there’s the fact I have to use vacation time from my actual job to work another job. Like I said there are tons of pros and cons. If I don’t work, I don’t get a pass to ski. So if I do get sick or have to quarantine or if they don’t use me because they’re cutting lessons, I don’t get to ski.

        1. Mill Miker*

          If you can afford the ski pass, then it might help to take “I get to ski” out of the equation entirely.

          For example’s sake, say the pass is $400. Instead of “stress and $1000 and ski pass” vs. “No stress and no skiing” it’s “Stress and $1000” vs. “No Stress and paying $400”

          So then it’s just a question of “Is the Stress worth $1400”.

        2. voyager1*

          Is Ski Patrol an option? When I taught we had a lot of weekend folks. Not sure if I was working a second FT job if I would want to take PTO to teach skiing. So what are the pros?

          1. MissGirl*

            Ski patrol requires an extremely high level of skills not to mention medical training. The pros are money for one. I can work over Presidents and make between $500 and $1000 in tips. I get free passes and discounts on ski gear. We’re given free training. It all comes out even when I weigh the pros and cons.

            I know I’m the only one who can make the decision. I’m just curious how others have come to the knowledge it’s time to close one door and open another.

            1. voyager1*

              Wow okay, that is very tempting. I can see why you are wrestling with that.

              When I taught I was full time and mostly teaching children’s ski school. I did adults during the week though. I never made that kind of money in tips though. The children came with an extra $1.00/hr and I got another $1.00/hr with my certificate.

              But your setup sounds pretty sweet.

            2. Jessi*

              Do you love it more than you hate or dread it?

              thats how I decide.

              I once decided to leave a place I was living because I was lying by the pool one day and was no longer appreciative/ awed, it had become normal and I felt that was time

    2. valentine*

      It sounds like you don’t want to do it. I don’t see any joy here. Why do you have to drive in a blizzard? If you’re worried about COVID, that’s a great reason to end your streak. (You might try to convince them to freeze benefits rather than to drop you back to zero.) When you ski on your own, are you so excited and happy that the work seems worth it?

      Decide you won’t ski this year. Do something else with your vacation time, so you miss the “We miss you” and initial nostaligia. Maybe you will panic and feel dreadful about the decision. Keep going. Skip it next year as well, but if you want to ski, go somewhere you’ve not worked. In the meantime, find the root of your massive discomfort with decisions (is it just this one?). Tackling that and becoming more comfortable with your choices will help you the most.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It will be okay. Yep, change is hard. Cry when you need to.

        I’ve talked about the job of my life. I loved that job so much. In the end, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t hack the chemicals. When I quit I had a 9 week long migraine. It dissipated once I got my next game on.

        Time was kind. I realized the chemicals were going to kill me if I stayed. I realized the people that I thought were so great, were… uh…. just people. I found out some Not Good things about them later on. It took time but the counterpoints became clearer and I was glad I made the jump.

        The job demanded a lot out of me. It was numerous stresses like you show here. It was not a long term plan. Like you I said each year i was quitting. And each year I went… all total I did 8 years. I could have used that time in better ways. I could have used it to get started in an arena where I would get paid better money. It’s funny/odd how something that was so important to me then, is a whole lot less important to me now.

        Lots of lessons.
        I will never love a job that hard again, it’s not healthy. It takes away the ability to be logical about matters. I will never work that hard again,
        I gave too much so it hurt even more to realize I had to leave.
        I pushed my body beyond its limits. This is always not wise. I had nothing left to me when I got home.
        Like you show here, there were many aspects of the job that I was afraid of and this is a quality of life issue. We are not having a quality life if we are going around in fear.

        Look online at Indeed for remote jobs. Perhaps you can find something to WFH. It’s worth a try.

        1. MissGirl*

          Thanks for your great advice. Luckily this was just a side hustle for me. When I started it was much more of a necessity. It does feel silly how big this lives in my mind. You’re right time will make it smaller.

          I think it gave me a sense of identity. I struggle a lot with my decision to go “corporate” a few years ago when the other “dream job” I had couldn’t support me. Hence why I had two. This gave me a way to feel like I was still living the dream. I feel a little less than right now.

    4. Workerbee*

      The last time I had to make a difficult decision where I just couldn’t make up my mind, I rephrased it from “Which do I want more?” to “Which _couldn’t_ I live without?” The answer, which had eluded me before, came to me instantly. Maybe a similar rephrasing might help.

  27. Outside Earthling*

    I have a boss who continually delays in providing me with information I need to write reports for our senior management. I have tried talking to him about it and explaining that it makes me very stressed as I’m left reminding him repeatedly and then filing my reports at the last minute. Any advice? He’s taken to asking my coworker (who works with me on the reports) for an extension of time right at the deadline, which coworker feels obliged to agree, because my boss is senior to us. So from boss’s perspective, he has an agreed extension, so doesn’t even acknowledge his lateness when he eventually provides the info, even though this just cuts into our own prep time. I like the job but this is driving me nuts and I’m finding it harder to hide my exasperation from my boss. Boss is legitimately busy and over stretched, so I can’t get any traction if I escalate, but it’s me who has the responsibility of delivering good reports on time to upper management.

    1. BlueBelle*

      That kind of thing drives me nuts too. I would approach it from the perspective of “I know you are stretched, what can I do to help you generate the information I need? I feel like my work is suffering and I am not doing as well as I could with the delays. How can we – together- solve this?”
      Good luck!

    2. Observer*

      Stop telling your boss how stressed you are. Of course your boss SHOULD care about this, but he clearly doesn’t. Rather tell him that when he does that it has a negative effect on your work, as it means that you need to rush and do stuff last minute with less ability to deal with last minute issues, double check things and just do basic proper proofing (assuming all of this is true, and it’s not just your desire to get things in early.) Also, if this is true, even when your coworker “agrees” to an extension, it’s not because the extension makes sense but because your coworker doesn’t feel like she can say no. But make sure to check with your coworker before you say that!

    3. Emilitron*

      How does your coworker feel about this? They’re consistently granting the extension, because he’s the boss, but they’re also impacted by the stress of it. Maybe talk with them about pushing back, suggest something like “Well of course if it’s not done yet, it’s not done, and we can accommodate if you get it to us Tuesday, but I wanted to make sure you’re aware that this means ABC and throws off our delivery plan. I know you have a lot of other things on your plate, but it would really help us do our jobs if we got that info reliably on schedule”

    4. Malarkey01*

      The thing that jumps out at me is reminding him repeatedly- as someone who has been on both sides of this problem that’s ineffective and a little annoying and reads as if you have artificial deadlines set earlier than needed and they can be ignored the first few times. Setting that expectation can do a lot of damage even with really good, but busy people who are juggling work.
      I would figure out what “the real” deadline is for when you need his piece. Make sure it’s accurate and reasonable, I would love to have everything a week early, but honestly only need it 12 hours early if working at a normal reasonable level. If there’s no actual consequence for missing the deadline it’s not the real due date. Then tell him “in order to get the monthly TSP report out I need your stuff by noon on the 29th every month”. I’d give one reminder the day before -“just a friendly reminder that I need your information by noon tomorrow or we won’t be able to deliver the report on time”. If he misses the deadline that’s not on you and you can reasonably point out that the lack of information is affecting your work.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        This, with cheese.

        With your coworker, figure out what the real deadline is and communicate that to your boss with the information that there isn’t room for an extension built into it. Then when he misses the deadline again (and he will), turn in the report without that information. Of course, keep all the communication on this in writing, document the heck out of it. If boss says something verbally, send an email summarizing the conversation and and conclusions/decisions reached.

        Right now, you and your coworker (mostly the cow-orker) are covering your boss’s butt with no consequences for him, just effects on you.

    5. Wintergreen*

      I don’t suppose you could leave a big glaring hole in the report to management and let boss know that upper management is going to come looking for answers.

      The whole asking for a “time extension” from coworker is BS and your boss knows it. A subordinate cannot grant an extension to the boss. He is covering his ass at the expense of coworker’s job if something goes wrong.

  28. P.*

    I’ve been with my current org for about a year and a half. I took the job after a whirlwind interview process where they revealed that they need a higher level of skills than the job they had advertised. I thought what they needed was someone who could develop data guidelines and processes to tune up CRM operations in specific departments (which is my jam), but it’s become clear that what they really need is an overall accounting manager.

    I don’t feel comfortable with the amount of financial reporting and fiscal responsibility that has just landed in my lap, and I’m not interested in continuing that as a career path. The org has tried to be very good to me, giving me a 20% raise in March to acknowledge just how much work I’ve taken on. They’re constantly dousing me in praise about how hard I work and how great I am for the org. The reality is that I’m feeling more and more overwhelmed and burnt out, and that all of this praise makes me feel sick because of it.

    I think the right thing to do is to search for a new position, but is there a way to talk about this with my supervisors? My skills are with a specific CRM software and a new position would likely require a relocation, which I can’t really afford right now.

    1. Mr. Obstinate*

      I would recommend finding the highest-up person in your company who would be expected to understand the gravity of a potential mistake in your current position’s work, and making clear to them that the situation is a hazard. Since you are being lauded for your work already, you can retain a good position at the company even if they “demote” you from the overwhelming responsibilities you currently have. And if they don’t listen, it’s best to have on record that you made them well aware of the risk they took, in case you do later on make a financial reporting mistake that brings disastrous audits etc.

      A script:
      “I appreciate all the kudos and I’m glad my work is meeting your expectations. However, I must tell you that I think it’s only a matter of time before my lack of experience with/training for these responsibilities leads to me making a major mistake. Given how important these accounting duties are to the company, my working in this position alone is a hazard. I’m sure I can continue to be an asset to the company in roles closer to my training. Please consider hiring an accounting resource who can verify that my work is as it should be, because right now all I can verify is that I’m doing my own best.”

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Embrace the opportunity in the meantime, why do you not want to pursue it? Because it’s not your “path” or smaller picture because it’s not part of what you have taken on?

      What would you rather do instead?

      Can you embrace a “financial analyst” position for the moment? And get what you can from it?

      I sense that you have a higher earning opportunity here potentially, if you are open to it.

  29. But There is a Me in Team*

    Something I never thought I’d be posting. Racist comments are accepted at my job as long as they are directed at white people. One recent example, said in an all-staff meeting: “White men shouldn’t take up space.” I fully believe that people who hold privilege should be aware of that and try to use it to make the world more equitable. I also believe that once you start accepting the disparagement of anyone based on their race, it’s problematic and it’s not something anyone should be exposed to at work. Any advice?

    1. ThatGirl*

      It’s not actually possible to be racist against white people, since we’re the ones who hold the power. What was said may have been inappropriate, but it’s not racist. And honestly, I agree with the sentiment — white men have long had way more than their fair share of attention and space. It would be really helpful to know the context to decide if it WAS inappropriate.

        1. ThatGirl*

          It’s not.

          As I said, it may have been inappropriate, but it’s really hard to tell without more context.

        2. AGD*

          Agree with ThatGirl in every respect. It can be prejudiced or even bigoted, but for it to be racist, it needs to be aligned with existing power structures, not pushing back on them. This does call on a slightly technical definition of the word, but I’d say that’s fine; we don’t want to pretend that a massive power imbalance is somehow a two-way street.

          1. Observer*

            That’s a really narrow and far from universally accepted definition of racism.

            And it’s still sheer bigotry, which should be unacceptable.

            2. Bostonian*

              Nope. Every implicit bias/racism workshop I’ve ever attended has had a definition of racism that includes taking into account existing power structures.

              1. Observer*

                Most of these workshops are pretty bad – and I’m talking about documented failure to move people’s attitudes and / or behavior in the direction we really need to move (ie less racist).

            4. Paperwhite*

              I was thinking about this. It’s interesting to watch the statement under discussion being considered the apotheosis of bigotry. Was it a good idea to say in the workplace? No, not least for the reasons I tried to lay out in my comments. But I put it on the scale opposite the battered forms of Emmett Till and Sandra Bland, and somehow it doesn’t precisely balance.

      2. Enough*

        Making antagonistic remarks based on race is racism. Your contention that it is not possible is the flip side of saying it is not possible for blacks to be racist.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I’m not qualified to say whether Black people can be racist, though I know they can absolutely be bigoted or prejudiced.

          I think that the OP of this question would do better to focus on whether the comment (and other similar comments) were inappropriate or unprofessional than making a claim that racism against white people (who, again, uphold the structures of white supremacy and power) is a real thing that’s happening here.

        2. Savannah*

          Yep. Black people can’t be racist. They don’t have that kind of systematic institutionalized power. They can certainly be biased and bigoted.

      4. Delphine*

        There is a difference between institutional racism and racial prejudice. There is no such thing as institutional racism against whites people, but it is possible to be racially prejudiced against white people. Saying “you can’t be racist against white people” and leaving it at that isn’t going to help race relations. There needs to be empathetic dialogue and listening from all parties.

        1. Mr. Shark*

          Thank you for providing the distinction! Additionally, as things change for the positive, the power can shift and then it may be possible that racism against white people can exist, because reasonable, non-racist viewpoints, or even just simple opinions from non-POC can be ignored or not be considered as valid just because of their race.

      1. Disco Janet*

        That doesn’t make this not problematic. Telling someone they shouldn’t take up space because of their race is inappropriate. While I absolutely agree that white men generally get TOO much space…telling them they should get zero is also not okay – I can maybe see some environments where it would be appropriate, but at work is not it!

      3. Devil in the Details*

        (I know this will not be a popular post, especially on this website, but…)

        Stop assuming that racist doesn’t exist against white people. The difference is that white people don’t have the right to complain and seek redress for racial discrimination – which in itself is racist.

        You, likes other, just assume that it doesn’t exist. This means when we are racially discriminated against, we have no rights because generally speaking the government doesn’t recognize that there is racism against white people.

        As for the comment about white men and space, who is the judge as to whether it’s racist? If I, as a white person, is offended and believes it to be racist, you saying “racism against white people doesn’t exist” does not negate it. It tells me it does exist… and you confirmed it.

        The reality is racism exists everywhere in the US – and elsewhere in the world – and it applies to all kinds of forms. We can never eradicate racism when one form is still permitted.

        1. Paperwhite*

          The difference is that white people don’t have the right to complain and seek redress for racial discrimination – which in itself is racist.

          This is risible. When POC speak up about racism we get shut down, told we’re overreacting, and otherwise silenced.

          I’m looking at this statement against the background of all the Black people killed for being Black, this year and every year, and it just… continues to be amazing.

    3. The Vulture*

      Ehh, I’d leave this alone. “Both sides-ism” is something that slows down progress while we’re trying to correct huge, historical wrongs, and “white men shouldn’t take up space” just isn’t that big a deal compared to the importance of addressing structural wrongs. Maybe just accept “white men shouldn’t take up space” is how people are fairly feeling, and take this as an opportunity to not have white men and their hurt feelings taking up space in this conversation.

      I really like this framework: https://www.showingupforracialjustice.org/white-supremacy-culture-characteristics.html
      And for this I think take a particularly look at objectivity and right to comfort. This came to my mind – “Assume everyone has a valid point and your job is to understand what it is”. What is the context, what is their point, their background, what are they trying to say, why does it make sense to them, can you identify with it?

    4. Littorally*

      Advice: First, look at the context. Was this a discussion about making more space for nonwhite or non-male people to speak? Then accept the statement as contextual, rather than absolute, and understand that “shouldn’t take up space” meant “shouldn’t take up disproportionate space.”

      If there wasn’t a context that softened that one specific sentence, then go talk to a relevant authority — either the speaker themself, your manager, or someone else realistic to the situation — and express that the statement made you uncomfortable, and what kind of change you would like to see in the future.

    5. Aurélia*

      I would ask them, “Take up space how?” It’s tough in the heat of the moment, I hope it doesn’t become a pattern, but I’d be curious about what they had to say. Not sure how this isn’t considered racism as people are being singled-out in a negative way based on physical appearance.

    6. Important Moi*

      Context matters. Obviously it is up to you how much detail you provide.

      “White men shouldn’t take up space.”

      Someone may have inarticulately stated a feeling. Part of the issue is that white men get benefits the others do not, like for example the benefit of the doubt when someone says something inarticulately.

      2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        Yes. I’d like to know what the person was refering to. If it was something like manspreading, it would make sense.

        3. Savannah*

          The ‘space’ in this phrase is not really physical space. It is usually applied to white men talking during meetings or emotional labor spent on a white men in organizations, or white male ‘experts’ on panels/at conferences instead of others. It’s an equity reminder more or less.

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      I wouldn’t call that a racist comment, for the reasons ThatGirl says.

      I WOULD say it’s not really a professional way to word things. If it seems that white men are taking up disproportionate space in meetings, on committees, etc., in your workplace, it would be absolutely appropriate to say so, or to say “white men should be conscious of how much space they’re taking up in comparison to women and people of color, because we want to make sure that everyone has the same opportunity to speak and be heard.”

    8. voyager1*

      It is problematic. As a white guy and a employee made that kind of comment I would be very worried. If my supervisor made a comment like that I would report it to HR or her supervisor.

      Many folks are going to tell you this isn’t the definition of racism, or maybe they agree with the sentiment. That is all fine, but those views are kind of irrelevant. You can’t have employees making those kinds of comments, it is going to become a liability at some point for the business.

      1. AnonToday*

        Yeah, I think the issue here is that US work discrimination/harassment law is not based on critical race theory. It just says: you can’t treat anyone worse because of their race, whatever their race happens to be. So obviously you can discuss ways to make the workplace more equitable but you can’t tell people not to exist (?) because of their race. Also, the behavior has to be a persistent pattern or an egregious incident. I think this comment on its own doesn’t really qualify as that, but perhaps if this is a persistent pattern (or is combined with actual objectively demonstrable discrimination), it could be considered harassment/discrimination on the basis of race.

      2. But There is a Me in Team*

        There’s a lot more going on. We’re not a big organization and I think a coworker may pass through AAM once in a while so I can’t get more specific. But IMO words matter regardless of who you’re directing them at. Just saying white folks should laugh it because they collectively hold power isn’t productive in, or appropriate for, the workplace, any more than it would be if someone was making Model Minority comments to an Asian staff member or comments about anyone based on their race. It’s generally an OK place to work, I don’t want to file an outside complaint at this time, but I want the behaviors to stop. An interesting convo, I appreciate folks who taking time to civilly [for the most part] share their views.

        1. pancakes*

          “Just saying white folks should laugh [at?] it . . .”

          Not one person here said or suggested that they think the remark was humorous, or that you should put it entirely out of mind. Several commenters asked about the context for the remark, which you haven’t expanded on. For these two reasons I don’t trust your narrative of what exactly happened here.

          1. But There is a Me in Team*

            I realize I was thinking about other interactions and the general attitude in my office when I posted this, and my comment was unclear. You are 100% correct that nobody here has suggested white people should just laugh it off.

      3. Paperwhite*

        I’m going to agree with you because more broadly I disagree with you.

        I would advise that a supervisor not make such a statement because a supervisor must present themself as someone an employee can trust to be fair and to not hold any demographic quality against them. I would also advise that a supervisor not make such a statement because a non-White supervisor with White reports is at greater risk of being disrespected and not obeyed by those reports, and making such a statement simply provides such reports with more ammunition to dismiss, belittle, and undermine the supervisor.

        Societally I really don’t think such a statement is at all the equivalent of the racist calumny heaped upon Black people, but because people really want to use such a statement to dismiss anti-Black racism in general and twice over in the workplace. it’s inadviseable.

    9. Paperwhite*

      I’m going to both agree with you and disagree with you.

      I would advise people not to make disparaging/ could-be-interpreted-as-disparaging comments about anyone’s race to the best of their ability, because of the opportunity it provides to people to disregard oppression of non-White people, as you’ve demonstrated here. I can understand how after years and years of, for example, being considered and reprimanded for a Loud Out Of Control Black Woman every time one opens one’s mouth, and being told to stop speaking up because it’s ‘aggressive’ and ‘frightens people’, that someone might say in exasperation, “White men shouldn’t take up space” as an oversimplification of “White men have taken up disproportionate space and that needs to be rebalanced.” However what happens in reality is exactly what you’ve done here: all you heard was a statement about White men that you used to completely disregard the context and what years-long experiences might lead someone to feel that by being not White nor male they have been denied their fair share of space, being heard, etc. Is your company truly free of racist comments and actions against non-White employees? You don’t have to consider that now, because someone said something you could consider racist concerning White people. So I would have advised them not to have provided the opportunity.

      An important consideration in racism and other bigotries is who holds the power. If a company has three Black employees, two of whom are entry level, and thirty White employees all the way from entry level to C-suite, the Black employees have a lot less power to do anything about the idea that “White men shouldn’t take up space” or to otherwise discommode the White employees for being White. The White employees have far more power, in terms of sheer numbers, position within the comparny, and position within society, to discommode the Black employees with multiple ideas about Black people ranging from “Black people aren’t as smart” to “Black people are thieving.” There are power differentials that determine which comment is annoying vs which is dangerous.

      1. But There is a Me in Team*

        That’s a very interesting point, thank you for chiming in. Lots to consider. That particular comment wasn’t made about a fellow employee. As I said, there’s a lot going on that I can’t share. One comment I wouldn’t have brought it up, esp. right now.

      2. voyager1*

        Paperwhite,
        You pretty much nailed it. I bristle at being told I take up space. It is very dehumanizing.

        I agree with your views on the societal impacts. I didn’t mean to sound dismissive or snarky. It is just having a debate if this kind of behavior is racist or not as some comments seemed to wanted to do doesn’t really help the original commenter.

        In the end though, the company has some liability having an employee making those kinds of comments. That was the main point I was trying to convey.

    10. Thankful for AAM*

      The white men in this room and at this moment need to stop taking up all the space can be a fair statement.

      white men should stop taking up all the space in general is pretty accurate but can be an irritating take on things.

      I would not call this racism, I’d label it calling out power structures.

      It can make us uncomfortable if we are white. But it is an opportunity to examine our own beliefs.

      1. Nita*

        I just don’t understand something here… when people say something, there is an intent behind it. Usually. Unless you’re my annoying uncle who just says things because he likes to hear himself talk. So the intent of saying “white men shouldn’t take up space” is? Lay the lot of them off? Stop inviting them to meetings?

        1. Paperwhite*

          Lay the lot of them off? Stop inviting them to meetings?

          As if Black people have the power to do any of this to White people in the workplace. Your dreams of oppression and martyrdom are unlikely to be fulfilled.

          Based in part on my experiences as a Black person who has never had a level playing field when dealing with White people in my entire 20th-21st century life, I think “White men shouldn’t take up space” was a clumsy attempt to say “White men shouldn’t take up *disproportionate amounts* of space. People who are not White men deserve space too.” Apparently this is a hugely controversial statement, but whatever.

          Now as I said above the person who said it shouldn’t’ve said it at work, in large part because such a statement allows those White people who want to dismiss racism against non-White people to claim to be the real victims, at risk everyday of being assaulted, fired, and otherwise mauled by imagined hordes of violent vengeful Black people. But I think it’s abundantly clear from societal context and the relative amounts of power that White people hold over Black people in US society that it doesn’t mean any of the victimizations you’re so eager to claim.

          1. Nita*

            Why do you think I dream of oppression and martyrdom? Or even that I’m white? Here’s the thing. I’m not from around here originally. And my home country has a very long history of a supposedly civilized society turning on one group or another in a heartbeat. My great-grandparents have lived this (and died of it). I’ve seen photos from their time that I cannot unsee. My grandparents have lived this. My parents got lucky. My generation is living this now. There’s a civil war going on over there, and if anyone told me five years ago that this would happen I would laugh in their face. I’m a little bit nervous when people say that any group “shouldn’t take up space” because I don’t know where that will go next. Do you?

            1. Paperwhite*

              Oh please. Black people are a minority in this country, many police feel they have carte blanche to kill us, and many conservatives wish aloud that they did. I think we’re at a bit more risk of genocide than White Americans, to be frank, and I sincerely doubt you’re the least bit worried on Black people’s behalf, judging by your comments here. I wish I couldn’t believe that you think “White men shouldn’t take up space” is the ultimate in racism, or that I didn’t feel confident betting $5 that you think Emmett Till deserved what was done to him, if you even know who he was.

              1. Paperwhite*

                … this is the problem with posting while annoyed. I meant to add this:

                I mention Emmett Till not because he’s the most recent Black person killed for his race — far, far from it. That title changes daily. I brought him up because he was a teenager beaten to death by grown men, and because so many White people think he deserved what was done to him and that a Black kid doesn’t deserve a memorial that his memorial needs to be replaced every year due to being defaced again and again.

                Black Americans have disproportionately less money and property, live disproportionately shorter lives, and are in danger of being killed by police and civilians alike because of our skin color. But you want to tell me White people in the US are in danger of a genocide from vicious Black people — which, incidentally, is a concept that gets alluded to a lot in discussions of racism. I really don’t think so.

                1. bluephone*

                  Okay where in God’s name does Nita say that Emmet Till deserved his horrific murder???
                  I think you need to take a step back from here for a while. Between this exchange and your more recent, vaguely threatening comment to Nita earlier today (that Alison already had to delete), it sounds like these letters are hitting way too many nerves for you. I hope you’re okay.

        3. AnonToday*

          It’s hard to know without more context. It sounds like this was given as a directive at an all-hands meeting, perhaps as part of a D&I initiative. In which case I think the biggest issue is that it’s unclear and assumes the listener understands theories of spatial politics (I work in a blue-collar field where many people of all colors did not go to college, are not feminists, and would probably not get this shorthand). I mean, how *does* a general statement like this help anyone who doesn’t already know about these theories and agree with them? I’d much rather implement policies/procedures to ensure everyone gets talking time in meetings or something.

          I get what you’re saying about intent, although your last two questions are kind of flippant! Many years ago when I (white) was just starting out in my career, I came down with a severe, months-long illness. My boss (Asian) let me have more flexible hours and work from home sometimes because I was ill. My coworker (Asian), who had a different boss, assumed that my flexible schedule was a perk given to me because I was white. She went around telling all our coworkers this and made snide remarks to me all the time about it (and monitored my “excessive” bathroom usage, because yes, that was part of the illness). As far as I know, she never asked my boss, our shared grandboss, or HR about this – because I would assume they would have told her she didn’t have info she needed? Because she never took actual action toward making the workplace more equitable, it certainly felt like the intent was not to make the workplace more equitable but to harass me for my medical condition. I mean… I could be wrong about this… but it seemed like she was making an *ableist* assumption.

          That’s why, again, I think it’s always best not to treat statistics or averages or general theories as if they automatically apply to any specific situation. These are supposed to be tools to help come up with a plan that works for your specific situation/company.

        4. pancakes*

          + 1 to what Paperwhite said. I’m white but have a hard time getting a handle on this sort of inordinately literal interpretation of what people tend to be talking about when they talk about taking up space. The same people who seem to have a really hard time understanding any degree of metaphor or abstraction with regard to racism don’t seem to be burdened by the same confusion in other circumstances. If someone posted here about a work dilemma that was weighing heavily on them, we wouldn’t see a dozen commenters express confusion about whether they mean they’re literally carrying something or buried underneath something, guessing at the number of pounds or kilos, etc.

  30. Come On Eileen*

    How are your benefits changing for the coming year in light of everything that’s happened in 2020? My company has gone through furloughs and layoffs and warned us that benefits would change for next year in order to keep us fiscally healthy. This week they announced that our premiums for healthcare are increasing and they are taking away a week of vacation. Needless to say, many of us aren’t happy about it. They did survey us about two month ago to ask our thoughts about our benefit package and to rank what we consider most important, so the positioning is that they made hard decisions but used our input. Would love to hear what other companies are doing or not doing to benefits for 2021.

    1. MissGirl*

      We lost our 401k match and have frozen promotions and raises. My old company did the same but also reduced vacation time by 2 days for the year. But neither have been hit so hard that we had lay-offs or furloughs. It really depends.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Our healthcare premiums are going up by an average of 6%, but they haven’t increased in the last three years. Dental premiums are actually going down a tiny bit. Otherwise, I’m not seeing any major changes in our overall benefit package. (We have four different healthcare options, and there’s some small changes in specific plans options, like one is getting a decreased urgent care copay and a slightly increased ED copay.)

    4. noahwynn*

      Our only big change is reducing PTO rollover, now limited to 80 hours. For 2022 it will be reduced to 40 hours.

  31. Damn it, Hardison!*

    Sharing my own Friday good news this week. I had a really good interview with a hiring manager on Wednesday (prepped thanks to AAM, of course) and have been moved to the next round of interviews with other members of the team. It’s a logical next step in my career, and the company is doing some interesting things. One new thing for me is that the company is headquartered in China. That should present some interesting challenges, the least of which may be scheduling meetings. The teams primarily US based, though on the opposite coast from me. If I get an offer I’m sure I will come back here to ask for your collective wisdom on some of these challenges.

  32. Amber Rose*

    I soften my language too much and I think it’s limiting the kinds of responsibilities I’m able to take on. It’s been a couple times now where I made a comment during a meeting and our CEO Fergus cut in to kind of reinforce it. For example the most recent one was when I said we had a new mask policy and that “I’d appreciate it if people would take these measures seriously.”

    And he cut in and said, “it’s not about taking them seriously or not, you HAVE to do this, it’s policy.”

    And after he said that I realized my words were probably taken as the mask thing being a suggestion rather than a policy, even though I had said that it was policy and what I was thinking during the last bit was “I know most of you think Covid is BS and I’d appreciate it if you’d at least pretend to care, for the sake of others.” I know he gets a lot of mocking behind his back for being mask police and whenever I try to say anything I get, “whatever you say, Fergus.”

    Anyways I volunteered to take on an additional role to my existing responsibilities and he seemed really hesitant and I get the feeling that he’d rather give it to someone else (the woman who keeps snarking at me with the above line) because she’s more aggressive and straightforward in how she talks.

    All this rambling on is basically my way of saying, how do I learn how to change my entire communication style? The soft kind of self mocking, joking tone I use is one I developed because it works really well for getting people to do most annoying things without making them hate me (I’m good at soft manipulation), but it’s obviously not endearing me to management.

    1. Free Meerkats*

      If you’re hoping to move to management, you can’t do it well if your goal is manipulation and not being hated. Using your example, yeah, you’re going to have to be the mask police, not the mask Mr Rogers.

      So your communication style will need to change. Personally, I much prefer a boss who tells me “These are the rules” over one who hems and haws around the subject at hand, hinting at things.

      Good luck

      1. Amber Rose*

        I can’t move to management. There’s no upward motion in this company, only sideways. I want to take on some additional responsibility related to our HR documentation and such, that’s all.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      You need different communications styles for different situations.

      When you are a peer trying to get someone do do something for you, the softer manipulation you describe can be a good strategy.

      When it is subordinates, you direct. Don’t waffle or qualify. You can use please and thank you, as that seems to suit your usual style, but make clear that this is an assignment, not a request for a favor. (E.g., Fergus, please prepare this week’s teapots report. It is due on Friday. If you have issues or problems consult me, otherwise I’ll expect to see it then. Thank you.)

      When it is a superior, often their time is limited, so you get to the bottom line up front. Write a few bullet points before hand on what you need to convey and practice them so you can get it out quickly. You can always amplify if time permits. Rambling is the death knell on getting more responsibility or to higher levels, because the boss just won’t want to deal with it.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I like getting the bottom line up front for everyone, and then adding a ‘background’ section if anyone needs to know why I’m asking for X or telling them to do Y.

      2. GothicBee*

        “You need different communications styles for different situations.”

        This is really important. Because if you just change your communication style, you’ll probably still have trouble with communication sometimes if you apply the same communication style across the board. How you communicate should depend on context, audience, and what information you’re trying to convey. Like the mask policy, especially in the context that your coworkers think it’s BS, means you have to take a pretty hard stance with no room for push back.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      1) Start with collecting data on your current style.
      * Verbally: Maybe go back and look at any recorded meetings where you talked, or if there’s none, ask a non-work friend to role-play with you and let you record it.
      * In writing: go back to old emails
      2) Analyze that data
      * Drill into your exact word usage. Write down what softening language you used.
      * Look for patterns – is there a phrase you use a lot? What % of your words are softeners? Is it different between emails / verbal?
      3) Then decide one concrete and specific thing you want to change. Possibilities:
      * Changing ‘I’d appreciate’ to something stronger, like ‘Everyone is required’ or ‘It is important that everyone’
      * Removing some terms entirely – I took ‘I feel’ out of all my emails and no one missed it. I use ‘I think’ about half the time I would have used ‘I feel’, and nothing at all the other half, and my emails are better for it.
      4) Then put a plan into place to change it:
      * If it’s verbal, practice practice practice. In front of a mirror or recorded on computer.
      * If it’s written, make yourself do a separate review pass for language. I found it took about two weeks for ‘I feel’ to drop out of my emails.

      Places where you can practice and get feedback from other people includes Toastmasters and therapy. But definitely work on the self-mocking / joking tone. If you don’t take yourself seriously, your boss won’t either. Good luck!

    5. Kathenus*

      I have this situation with one of my managers (who is my direct report). He has a high degree of empathy, which is great, but it can at times impede his giving clear direction. For example when coaching an employee on an issue with negativity, the language used was very vague, and couched in lots of softening language. But unfortunately it was at a level where the message got lost at times. It’s one of the things we’re working on together this year, because it does absolutely affect things if he doesn’t always give clear direction and feedback in his effort to also be at times overly empathetic.

      So a suggestion in building this – think before the conversation what you want the outcome to be. Then think of the words/phrasing you’d generally use in the conversation. Lastly take a moment to evaluate how clear your direction is towards that goal/outcome, and if your wording could be viewed with multiple interpretations. For example in the mask example – the outcome is that everyone follows the mask policy all the time. Your wording is very kind but also not very direct. The result could be some people viewing it as a request and not a requirement.

      In my opinion the more empathetic approach works well in some situations but not as well in others where directness is more appropriate. Identifying which is which is a good step to clearer communication when needed.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I said we had a new mask policy and that “I’d appreciate it if people would take these measures seriously.”

      …. “We have a new mask policy [details] and everyone has to understand and comply. The only exceptions we’ll accept is if you are in a medically exempt category (or similar).”

    7. LGC*

      I’m also prone to this. I think that you have to be conscious of when you really need something done and when it’s high-stakes, like masks. What’s important is…after they say, “whatever you say, Fergus,” do they put their masks on?

      At this point, masking isn’t an annoyance issue. It’s a direct safety issue, and there could be catastrophic consequences if it’s not followed. (The difference? People have heard about the wedding in Maine that’s caused at least 170 cases and 7 deaths. I read an article back in May about two hairdressers in Missouri that had COVID and worked on 140 people while symptomatic. None of the customers got sick because the hairdressers had masks on.) This is something you need to be serious about if they’re not following your soft suggestions. And it’s hard because it feels mean and it can sound mean, but it’s necessary.

      So, back to communication. Honestly, if you went fully direct when necessary (I trust you know better than I do), that would work better than just always being direct. You have the element of escalation – they know that if Amber Rose is being serious about this, then it’s really serious. And even if they don’t like it, they know they still have to do it. And I think that’s better than being Snarky Sally and always no-nonsense and direct.

  33. Fuzzy Frogs*

    I rejected a manager’s advances and now he’s not talking to me/going out of his way to ignore me. He also talks about other women now in front of me and brags about how they’re so nice, bake him cookies, etc. He’ll go to my coworker next to me and say, “Sharon is my favorite. She’s so nice.” while glaring at me.

    He has connections higher up, so going to the boss is pointless. Until I can find a new job and leave, is there anything that I can do to get through this? I feel like he’s going to make my life unbearable until I can leave.

    1. Andie Begins*

      No option to go to HR or an unconnected higher-up who’d take it seriously (and specifically mention that you’re worried about retaliation because he’s already doing it).

      I’m so sorry, that’s awful to have to deal with. I hope you can report on your way out, if there’s no safe way to escalate it before you leave. Good luck finding a new position.

    2. Jaded Millenial*

      Document everything. This sounds like it’s close to going over the line into illegal workplace harassment. Familiarize yourself with your workplace’s harassments and reporting policies.

      As for how to get through it, remind yourself that his behavior has everything to do about him and his issues/failings and nothing to do about you and your actions. You acted appropriately. He did not. You are in the right.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        + A Gazillion! Document document document. Is there *anyone* you can get to who is higher than his connection? Sexual harassment is getting real attention these days.

        If not: he should be ashamed of himself, but he’s trying to push that awkwardness off to you. My preference is to Grey Rock jerks: Ignore him except for work statements. Any social statements, you didn’t hear / don’t notice. You’re too busy focusing on work (and practicing deep breathing).

        In situations where I feel particularly safe (like the guy who had trouble hearing my no when my 6’4″ husband was *right behind him*) I sometimes go Dismissive. In this case, it would look like: when he glares, give a small glance at him, tiny raise of the eyebrows, like ‘How stupid he is to be doing this but I’m too professional to comment on it’. Verbally, a few ‘bless your hearts.’

        Dismissive is escalation, so use it cautiously.

        He sucks. Good luck.

    3. Bagpuss*

      I am so sorry you are being treated this way. It sucks.
      Document it all, and consider going to HR even though he has connections higher up. It may help to have a documented issue raised even if they don’t address it effectively, for instance if you are forced out or sacked and need to claim unemployment or make a claim for discrimination.

      Does your employer have any formal policies around sexual harassment, bullying or retaliation? If so, reference them specifically in your complaint.

      If his not talking to you affects your ability to do your job effectively then focus on that.

      Is there any chance of a sideways move so you could report to a different manager? I think sometimes if you can offer a solution when you report a problem it can help, especially if (as here ) the obvious solution of disciplining him is one which HR can’t or won’t take.

    4. Ellie Mayhem*

      Is he 12? He sounds embarrassingly immature.

      Document interactions thoroughly, especially the interaction(s) when he made advances toward you. Indicate that you feel that his actions are now retaliation for rejecting his inappropriate advances. Do you have an HR department?

    5. Elenia*

      First of all I am sorry this is happening to you.
      Secondly, I think this is a great opportunity to use Alison’s technique of pretending you are an alien, investigating a strange culture. Why, look at the fragile little males on this planet! They think their penis is SOOOO important they are children about them! Isn’t that funny? Oh and now he’s being passive aggressive. Must add this to my anthropology notes!

      Fuck, I would even bake delicious cookies and next time he makes a comment, passive-aggressively eat cookies in front of him. With a smile on my face.

      1. Observer*

        No, this is not the place for this. The boss is mistreating her, and it IS going to do her damage. She needs to find a way to protect herself. And if possible, some way to stop this guy as well.

    6. Twisted Lion*

      Just because he has connections it doesnt mean he is protected. Go to HR. Document everything. My friend bought a recording device that looks like a pen (recording another party without consent is legal in our state, but check your laws). She used these recordings to build a case.

      Also, call him out especially if its in front of other people. His behavior is inappropriate and if other people hear what you tell him when you tell him to stop that will help you.

    7. Observer*

      Document your head off. Then check your company’s policies. Because they ARE required to have a way for you to report this stuff that doesn’t essentially require you to report to your harasser or harasser’s best buds.

      Please also don’t assume that “has connections” means untouchable. But, if that turns out to be the case, if you are in the US, the DOL and / EEOC can be a a good place to turn. The more documentation you have, the better.

    8. Helen J*

      I would agree with him “You are right- Sharon is nice and one of my favorites, too!”. It might not work for your situation, but when you agree with people like him, it can be really disarming.

    9. Paperwhite*

      Ugh, I send you strength.

      If you have a Legal Advice Line or Free Legal Advice organization in your area I’d definitely recommend contacting them, as well.

    10. Kathenus*

      Jumping on the bandwagon here – document and report this. If there is someone in the upper ranks or HR who’s less connected, great, but even if not it’s the right thing to do. Make sure it’s in writing such as an email which you also save on a personal email or drive. Say straight out that you are being retaliated against for rejecting your manager’s advances, that clearly, in writing.

      He probably gets away with this as much because people assume reporting it won’t work as anything. I know it won’t be easy, but it’s the right thing to do for you and the other current and future women in your company.

      1. I take tea*

        How frustrating. And people still wonder why it can be problematic to ask a co-worker for a date, when these kind of situations occur.

    11. cleo*

      This sucks, Fuzzy Frogs!

      So this may not work. But are there any potential allies you can cultivate? Do you have a good working relationship with Sharon or any of your other female coworkers? I wonder about asking one of them for advice – you may not want to say you rejected his advances but maybe say “I unintentionally got on Manager’s bad side”

      1. Marthooh*

        Coworkers won’t be able to give good advice if they don’t know what the problem actually is. Framing it as a vague unintentional offence will probably result in hearing “Just bake him some cookies, he loves that!”

      1. Lizzie*

        I am sorry, Fuzzy Frogs. Bear in mind that it is very unlikely that you are the first person he has ever treated like this. You probably won’t be the first to leave because of it either. The other staff are also being a affected because they can see he is now bullying you with his glaring and his remarks. Make a comprehensive written record, including details of his initial inappropriate behaviour/ words, for your own sanity, so that you do not later doubt yourself and how you dealt with it.

        Read up online about workplace bullying, and how to stay as safe as possible (physically and psychologically) – a good written record is crucial. Record the impact of it on your sleeping, eating, socialising patterns as well as on your workplace productivity. My own experience of being bullied by my manager put my blood pressure up significantly – I saw my doctor who recorded all of my symptoms and I asked her to note that it was due to what was happening at work, and she said “Oh yes, I have seen a number of patients from your workplace because of this!”.

        Don’t assume that your manager will eventually drop this bullying, he may escalate it.

        So, what allies and supports can you activate? Friends, relatives, past or present colleagues, counsellors, EAP etc – this man is bullying you, and workplace bullying is horribly commonplace. You are not alone in your experience and YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR IT.

    13. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      As someone who went through something similar, my number one advice is: avoid at all costs being alone with him. You don’t know what he is capable of now that you rejected him. My “mentor” in my first job was a creep who followed me to the toilet every time I went, and I was lucky enough to reject him in a corridor full of people.

  34. Skye’s the limit*

    I manage a small department in public services that’s open to the public. A few weeks ago, on a day I didn’t work, one of my staff was 30 minutes late and the department was unstaffed for approximately 15 minutes. My immediate boss called this staff member into her office and said as punishment, my staff member would have to write a research paper about the importance of punctuality. After they protested, it was eventually changed to finding several quotes about timeliness instead.

    I’m upset for several reasons and have no idea how to handle this. This person doesn’t have a history of irresponsibility. I feel like I should have been the one to address the timeliness issue, as I just did that a few weeks prior with a different team member. And then there’s the issue of assigning research papers as punishment. How is that okay in a professional work environment? Am I wildly off base here?

    1. CatCat*

      No, you’re not wildly off base. “Punishment” doesn’t really belong in the workplace and a research paper is just bananas. If there was a pattern, maybe training on time management or a PIP if being on time is critical to the job (sounds like it is since this is a place open to the public).

      Your immediate boss also undermined your authority here.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Oy vey. I have visions of Bart Simpson writing “I WILL NOT BE LATE” on the chalk board.

      I think I’d bring this up with your boss and say something like, “When Chris was half an hour late the other day, I understand that caused real problems for the department. Being entirely unstaffed for fifteen minutes when we are open to the public is serious. But I wish that you had brought the issue to my attention. Chris doesn’t have a history of being irresponsible, and I think they understand the seriousness of the problem. I am happy to have a talk with them about the importance of timeliness and the effects of being late, and will work with them to make sure this doesn’t happen again. I did that recently with Wakeen, and he’s been very diligent about timeliness since then.”

      I don’t think that it’s possible to push back at this point about the ridiculous punishment work (I mean, REALLY, what is this boss, a bad kindergarten teacher?!), but if you can convince your boss that you are capable of handling situations like this in a way that results in improved behavior by the employees, maybe she will give these issues to you to handle instead of handling them so poorly herself.

      This is kind of appalling, really.

      1. irene adler*

        This is good!

        I’m thinking that there’s one very wounded employee there. No doubt they were fretting over being late. We don’t know what caused the tardiness, but if it was a car accident or abnormally bad traffic or something else they had no control over, they they are probably in a state of upset. And THEN to have the grand boss discipline them for this tardiness- well, I’d be in tears. Might even have to leave for the day.

        I don’t get why some manager’s go-to is discipline for everything. Maybe find out what was going on that caused the tardiness first.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          “I don’t get why some manager’s go-to is discipline for everything.”
          Because they don’t know how to manage!

      2. Mr. Shark*

        Nicely put, WantonSeedStitch.

        That is completely appalling, on all sides. The boss by-passing Skye as the direct manager and then requiring a ridiculous punishment makes no sense at all.

  35. SugarFree*

    The location manager at work is leaving. They scheduled an in-person mandatory meeting last week to let us know if his departure. (Our area is still very much a Covid hotspot). Now they have scheduled a Going Away Party at a local restaurant! I live will very high risk individuals and cannot get them or myself sick. How bad is it if I don’t go?

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I would send an e-mail to the person (if you’re close enough that it wouldn’t be weird), and say “I won’t be able to make it to your going-away party because I have to be careful about going out in public since I live with people at high risk for Covid, but I wish you all the best! Hope you enjoy the party!”

        1. Blue Eagle*

          Rather than sending an e-mail, I would get a card and write a nice sentiment in it. Something tangible would be appreciated far more than an e-mail. After all, we all have prior commitments and feel bad that we won’t be able to attend all events we are invited to.

      2. Malarkey01*

        I would just say you have a conflict and can’t make it (assuming it’s after hours). No need to debate Covid with them. On the plus side, a managers going away party means even if you do annoy him there’s not much of a repercussion.

    3. Kara S*

      Not bad at all. They are being ridiculous to schedule those things right now as the first one could have been an email and the second one is not necessary.

      1. SugarFree*

        I agree! We could of had the announcement during a zoom meeting or something. It didn’t have to be in-person. They also brought in two senior managers from out of state which made us worry the meeting was going to be bad news, like salary cuts or layoffs.
        I’m not even sure how the party organizer even got a venue – restaurants are limiting seating to groups of 5 or less due to county restrictions. Unless they didn’t tell the restaurant which would be a whole other issue.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Just reply with something like “Sorry can’t attend as I’m isolating due to you know what, but please express my best wishes!”

    6. PollyQ*

      Not bad, even without COVID. “I wish I could make it, but I have a previous engagement” is a fine excuse, assuming it’s not during office hours. Even there, doctors’ appointments are things that people have mid-day.

      Send him a nice going away card, and I doubt anyone else will care.

  36. Rayray*

    I started a new job at the end of July. I’m in an industry that still uses hard copies of documents – things that need to be signed and originals kept. The company is great and has most of the workforce at home but I just happen to be in one department that needs to handle these original documents so I’m in office. I do like how it’s set up, we sit safely spaced out, temperature checks as we come in, have to respond to daily health check emails, sanitizers etc.

    I have one part of my job that could easily take a full day and will soon take on another responsibility which I was told would take another full day or day and a half where I don’t need to handle any documents. I’d like to ask to work from home 1-2 days a week. I’m moving back with my parents who are over 65 and I’m also a little iffy about what some coworkers do outside of work that increases theirs and my risk for COVID. I don’t want it to seem unfair to my direct teammates though. How would you ask about this request?

  37. Bobboccio*

    My fiancee got a promotion!!!

    I wrote in a couple of weeks back about some crazy antisemitism that happened under the auspices of some of her office training. I was asking the dear readers here if they had any advice about bringing it to the board, or just laying low.

    Well, she did bring it to the chair of the board, because she is someone who just always feels the need to speak up when faced with indignities, and I am happy to say this one worked out! The chair was extremely sympathetic, said he had no idea the seminar was going to go so astray, and he was aghast at a trainer making an antisemitic comment. He admired her courage, and now she’s in the management fast-track!

      1. Bobboccio*

        Thanks! It’s really tough not knowing what to advise her to do, but she said that she is someone who has to speak her truth.

  38. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Any tips for dealing with someone who is way too focused on minor details with absolutely no imagination? Especially when that person is senior to you?

    My co-worker Minerva and I–both members of the executive team, so we are not junior members of staff– were given a visual project. Neither of us is a graphic artist, but we were charged with managing one that we hired and with putting together materials. Minerva and I work really well together and that’s been great, but when we were at the final stages, one of the senior execs basically came in and said, “OK, thanks, my project now.” Which would be fine, except we keep getting messages asking for our feedback on the most picky things and asking us to do stuff for him. These tasks are not particularly difficult or time-consuming, but they are tedious and they come in individual emails. So instead of giving things some thought and asking for several pieces at once, I can barely go to the bathroom without getting another minor request from him. For several of these requests we have said things like, “This will not look perfect; it’s designed to get an idea of what we want before we go back to a professional,” because that is what we all agreed to when we met about it last week. But he won’t listen. Things like, “Adjust the colors on this,” and “Take the logo off of that.” Things we are no more capable of doing than he is. And things that I truly believe do not matter when you’re trying to make a decision based on an overall look.

    I tried teaching him how to do certain things (why he didn’t Google and try to figure it out himself, I will never know) and he appreciated that. I tried telling him at one point that it was hard for me to give feedback on a single piece and I needed to see something in a larger context, and he argued with me. (Sorry, dude, that’s how my brain works.) But the worst part is the constant emailing with questions about minute details.

    I don’t work like that. It’s probably a matter of different work styles– I tend to lay out the big picture and then refine the details after getting general feedback, he’s doing the opposite– but I object to making more work for ourselves than we need to at this point, I object to the project being taken from us so unceremoniously, and I object to being asked to take time away from my other projects to do these things for him. But I do them because he’s senior to me. He’s not my boss, but I can’t very well say, “Dude. This is not helping. Why don’t you make notes and send ONE email later this afternoon?” Nor can I say, “It really doesn’t make sense to focus on these details when we don’t have feedback on how the whole thing looks.”

    Maybe I’m just BEC with him and the whole thing. I had an interview this morning that seemed to go well and I’m job searching like crazy. Should I just vent my frustration and suck it up and keep hoping I can move on soon? Or is there something else I can do?

    1. Emilitron*

      Oh, ugh. Is he waiting to hear back from you before he can work more, or can you say “ok great, I hear you on the logo. I’m doing XYZ until mid-afternoon, keep sending me notes and I’ll take care of it all at once at 3:30.” Or any way to not have to reply in micro-bites – even spin it like standard versioning, he took your v2.0 and has created v2.1.13 and different people on the team accumulate minor updates (graphic design, copy edits, etc) until you’re ready to bring it all together into version 3. Maybe if you make it sound high-tech enough he’ll bite?

    2. PollyQ*

      Does your boss know that SrExec McGrabbypants is asking for all these changes and fixes? Would she support you if you told him that you didn’t have the bandwidth to work on something that’s not your project anymore?

      1. valentine*

        Does your boss know that SrExec McGrabbypants is asking for all these changes and fixes?
        Yeah, do they want you at his beck and call? I smell sexism: He’s treating the two of you like his personal assistants.

        You’re the one prioritzing his emails. Filter him and schedule a daily read/response, but only if you should still be working on the project. You’d do well to get a schedule because there seems no end in sight.

  39. Llama Wrangler*

    TLDR: I am a department lead at a non-profit, and it is likely that we are going to lose one of our funding streams that covered some of my department’s work. How much does it make sense for me to push my boss or the ED for their plan about what will happen if/when the funding disappears?

    For more context, we first thought that this funding might be pulled at the previous grant cycle, and at that time, my boss and the ED said that if we lost the funding, our department’s roles would likely need to shift, but that they wanted to retain the staff, in potentially different roles. The grant was renewed, but with very stringent goals/requirements that I think we’re unlikely to meet because of the pandemic. About a month ago, the ED and our head of development had gone back to the funder with some requests about changing the goals in light of the pandemic, and I’ve heard crickets since then. (I asked my boss once two weeks ago, she said she hadn’t heard anything but would let me know when she had.) 
    Complicating this is the fact that while the funder pays for our department, the goals they set for us are not related to the work my department does, so there is very little I can do as team leader to influence whether we meet them or not. As in, I’m the Director of Teapot Painting, and our funder set the goal that 100% of our teapot spouts should attach perfectly, when usually the teapot spout team hits 80% (but the Teapot spout team mostly has a separate funding stream so they won’t get cut if they don’t meet the goal, and the org feels like they can eliminate some of the painting staff if needed, but they obviously can’t afford to send out teapots without spouts). There are some things I am already doing as a leader (supporting the Director of Teapot Spouts to improve his QC processes to increase their perfect attachment rate), but it might potentially make sense to also leverage staff to support — I’d certainly rather temporarily assign some of my team to support some of the Teapot Spouts work if it means I’m able to long-term secure Teapot Painting (to further belabour this analogy – I am passionate about painting and think that our teapot company should prioritize well-painted pots, but it is less central to the teapot making mission than spouts, lids, etc). 
    I obviously am job-searching (I think “we want to retain the staff” is a nice thing to say but not likely to hold up if we lose a substantial portion of our funding), but I’m trying to figure out if it’s appropriate to push my boss or the ED on what their contingency planning is. I do not know enough about the budget to know how much of our salary lines are covered by this funder (at least 50%, possibly more?), and it’s possible that the leadership made plans for reassigning staff at the previous renewal that they didn’t share with me because the crisis was averted. On the one hand, it seems like it makes sense to push my boss to share clearly with me what the revised goals are and what the plans are if we don’t meet them, as well as to get her signoff on strategies for how we can support Teapot Spouts if necessary. On the other hand, I wonder whether this is a case of they’re sharing info on a need-to-know basis, and my desire to know more is fueled mostly about my anxiety about an impending layoff rather than an ability to change things.
    What questions do you think are worth asking or pushing on? How would you approach this conversation? 

    1. Director of Development*

      I’m sorry you are going through this. Foundations suck and the system is broken. It’s ridiculous to give you a grant for one program area and then put goals & restrictions on the grant for something covered by a different program team.

      I am a fundraiser and we are going through something similar–we have a big chunk of money from a funder sitting in a bank account for a project that for various reasons, including COVID, never got off the ground. We have been reaching out to the funder for MONTHS with increasing levels of urgency and crickets. I know that the employees of the funder are still working because I am friends with some of them on facebook and see their posts! We can’t spend the $$$ until we get approval from them and it’s half of what we need to raise by the end of the year to stay solvent.

      That said, I’m not sure how much pushing on your boss/ED you can do. They likely don’t know much more than you, or if they do, they’re not at liberty to share. It’s good that your DoD reached out to the funder; that’s exactly what they should be doing. I’m sure that your ED has two scenarios in mind & at least some idea of what they would do. Scenario #1 is we never hear back from funder OR funder refuses reallocation request. Scenario #2 is funder replies and says yeah sure great use our money for whatever. If #1 plays out, your ED will have to draft a new budget and go to the board for approval, and until that happens, there’s not much that they can share with staff. The board could easily reject that budget draft and ask the ED to come up with something different.

      If you already have the $$ in the bank, why can’t you just spend it however you want? A fiscally prudent ED would not do this. What if they retain all the staff and 6 months from now the funder comes back and says we didn’t approve this reallocation, you need to pay us back? The funder has the legal right to do this, even though it’s shitty. Then the NPO is on the hook for those 6 months of salaries/benefits for staff that they would have let go if they had that info earlier. The funder can also sue the NPO, and the board has a fiduciary responsibility for the org so the $$$ to pay the funder back would have to come from their own pockets. That’s why boards have to vote to approve the budgets.

      Do you read the blog Nonprofit AF? Vu Le has some great articles about funders & equity in NPOs.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks so much! Yes — this whole system is deeply unfair and broken.
        To clarify the specifics, we have the money to spend right now how we need to BUT the things they’re asking us to report on are not in alignment with how we’re funding.

        We use the funder’s money to cover our teapot painting division; previously they’ve asked us to report on teapot painting; this year they’re asking us to report on just teapot spouts. But if the funder cuts the money, teapot painting is what will get cut because we have other, more stable money to cover the teapot spouts.

        The question is about whether I should be pushing on how we’re running things now to help the teapot spout team meet the goals, and/or just so I know what might happen when the funding (likely) runs out at the end of the year.

        1. Director of Development*

          Ok, gotcha! That does clarify a bit. Did you ask specifically in the grant for $$ to fund the painting team or is it just, “Here’s $100,000 for teapots” and your ED decided it would cover painting?

          I do think you can press your boss for more information on what your priorities should be (Right now I’m spending 60% of my time helping Fergus with spout alignment, and 40% supervising the painting team. Does that allocation sound correct to you?”) but I don’t think you’re going to get a good answer about plans for if/when the funding runs out. If you do ask, I would do so very politely/deferentially ie “I was wondering if you were able to share any information about the plans for my dept?” and not often.

          1. Llama Wrangler*

            Your suggestions make sense! Thank you!

            When we originally applied, I think it was general teapot funds, but as our teapot painting took off, they asked for us to report (and funded accordingly) our teapot painting — we’ve always previously been accountable for our teapot painting outcomes to them. This year, because of the pandemic and other things, they’re just asking us to report on our teapot spouts.

  40. LTL*

    Thoughts on putting a short term volunteer stint on a resume?

    I know when it comes to jobs, it’s recommended not to put it on your resume if you were there less than 6 months or a year, depending on context. But what about volunteering? The volunteer project itself was only one month long. I had been including it because I thought it’s a good way to show interest in the field I’m trying to get into.

    1. ADHD Career Changer*

      I’m no expert, but here are some arguments for including it:
      – if you are in the first few years of your career
      – if you are trying to change industries
      – if you have really good achievements

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      Did you have notable accomplishments during the stint? If it was like, volunteered for a month to manage all public communications for this organization’s gala, that might be worth including. On the other hand, if it was a month of doing something a lot of other volunteers were also doing, I’d leave it off — if I saw it, I’d either feel like you were padding or be concerned about your commitment.

    3. WFH with Cat*

      You could add a Volunteerism or Community Service section to your resume and list it as a key accomplishment. This might work best if you have a couple of other key projects that you can also highlight — but, even if it’s the only one, it could be worth including if it’s particularly germane to the jobs you are pursuing.

      Alternately, you could address it in cover letters when it seems most appropriate, as an indicator of your skill set and your desire to do more in that particular field.

        1. WFH with Cat*

          Annony is right. I wouldn’t put a one-month stint (volunteer or paid) under experience. I believe it might be useful under a “Volunteerism” or “Community Service” section, especially if you have 2-3 other orgs or projects you can reference, because volunteerism doesn’t have to relate so directly to the job you are applying for, and can help to show your full range of skills and interests.

    4. Annony*

      Unless you did something pretty impressive in that one month, I would leave it off the resume and talk about it in your cover letter. Your resume shows your experience while your cover letter shows your interest. Listing a short volunteering stint in the experience section could make it seem like you don’t understand what the job actually is and think that the volunteering experience is comparable.

  41. NotaPirate*

    Any advice on encouraging shorter meetings? Boss is terrible at keeping to a short meeting. Had multiple 1.5hr-2hr meetings this week. I really want to get up and stretch, get a glass of water, (use the bathroom) after an hour.

    Or alternatively, any advice for staying focused past the hour mark? I seem to dramatically lose ability to focus after an hour. It’s all zoom voice only but I frequently need to be pulling tables up on screen share, talking etc (so I can’t just walk away and stretch while still on the call).

    I’ve tried a couple times when I need to use the restroom, to say let me jump off the call and I’ll be back in 2 min and Boss really dislikes that. Even when there’s 5 people on the call and I’m not the one talking. Most the long meetings tend to be 3 people. Should I just do it anyway? Last time I said that boss goes no stay I have just one more thing and it ended up taking another 15 more min.

    1. NotaPirate*

      Forgot to add one more thing, Boss also hates scheduling meetings. He just sends in chat everyone online? Then starts these 2hr meetings with no delay between asking and messaging. So it’s not like I can plan around it (bathroom especially).

    2. ThatGirl*

      Just say “hey, I’m taking a quick bio break” and put the phone/laptop down. You don’t need permission.

    3. Angelinha*

      I don’t know that you can encourage this person to have shorter meetings, especially since he’s not even scheduling them up front for a set amount of time. But you can definitely walk away to use the bathroom or get water! He might be objecting to you saying you’re getting off the call (although that still seems weird of him). I usually just type into the meeting chat, “be right back” or something and no one has ever given me a problem.

    4. AnonInTheCity*

      Honestly, just turn off your camera and mic and let the meeting play while you do what you need to do for a minute. Everyone will understand “technical difficulties.” Or if it’s a totally impromptu meeting, why not just say, “Be there in five minutes” and take a quick break first?

  42. Blackbird Sings*

    How do I resign from a job I love with the best boss when it will make his working life more difficult?
    I believe I am likely to receive a job offer from a large investment banking firm in the next week or so, after having been contacted directly by them to apply for a job that is tangentially related to my current position. I was not looking for a new position and have a great job, with market-competitive compensation and good work/life balance. However, New Company salary offer is likely to be 40%+ higher than I currently make, and the nature of New Company is such that the sky could be the limit. I have to figure out if I’m willing to increase my commute, etc. That’s a me problem.

    What I’m struggling with is feeling like my Current Job teammates will suffer if I leave. I am the highest performer/producer on the team, and it is a pretty solid fact that it will be hard to keep up the momentum without me. I also feel like leaving would be a betrayal of my boss who is the best human, and who I’ve worked for the last 5 years through lots of changes. We have a wonderful working relationship. I’m struggling with how to balance my ambitions for more compensation and future growth with my genuine care and concern for my current colleagues.
    Any thoughts?

    1. NotaPirate*

      You have to be selfish. You cannot sacrifice your future to keep your coworkers happy. They wouldn’t stay either. You are not responsible for your boss’s happiness.

    2. CatCat*

      You leave things in good shape on your departure and work on ensuring as smooth a transition as possible during your notice period.

      You’re in a business relationship and moving on from that is not a betrayal! If your boss in the best boss, they’re going to understand that and be happy for you even if the departure presents a challenge for them. People leave jobs all the time. That’s just part of the deal. Totally normal for boss and colleagues to need to adapt to a staffing change.

    3. Fluffernutter*

      You wrote my life! Everything: best boss, strongest performer, but there are better opportunities. I very much empathize. I haven’t pulled the plug yet but my boss was great when my colleague, her other direct employee, applied to an outside position. She was understanding and supported my colleague as I think your boss should do as a great boss. In return, my colleague did everything he could to help with a smooth transition.

      1. Blackbird Sings*

        Thanks everybody. It’s particularly touchy for me, because we’ve developed a friendship and we are very open with one another. Boss is probably retiring in 7-8 years, while I’m mid-30s so I have 30+years ahead of me. Boss also hired me 5 years ago and took a risk, and has put a lot of effort into developing me. Boss ALSO is really open with me about when headhunters contact him and says things like “Blackbird, you know if I get an offer that’s attractive I’ll have to make you part of the deal!” (this has already happened once, to my extreme advantage) Since he’s so open and I haven’t said anything, I think (well, I know) I feel a little guilty for not telling him I’m in conversations with NewJob, even though I didn’t go looking for this opportunity and it might not happen. I know he’ll handle it maturely, because that’s the type of person he is–I think I’m struggling with the idea of change to unknowns when my known is really great.

        1. That'll happen*

          I understand that you feel a sense of loyalty to your boss, but he was able to be open with you about being headhunted because of the power differential – you can’t fire him. Try not to feel guilty. You are doing what is best for you, and if he is as great as you say he is, he will understand. In all honesty, if you’re the highest performer and it’s hard to keep up without you, that on him, not you. He should be coaching your colleagues to improve and/or fighting to get more staff if it’s really a problem.

        2. valentine*

          (this has already happened once, to my extreme advantage)
          He helped himself and his new employer by in turn headhunting you. This wasn’t some personal favor. I am always skeptical of glowing descriptions. You’d do well to leave his nest and see what you can do without both him and the team (which you’re carrying), especially if they’re not improving.

    4. Alianora*

      There’s never a perfect time to leave a job. Your boss will understand. It’s not personal, it’s just business.

      If you can give a long notice period, that would be nice, but if you can’t it’s still nothing to feel guilty about.

    5. PollyQ*

      First of all, unless your boss & your teammates are genuinely incompetent, they will be OK. They’ll hire someone else, and/or they’ll learn to step up in your absence. The transition may be rocky, but a basically functional office will be able to handle it.

      Second, please don’t think of this as any kind of “betrayal.” A job is not a marriage — there’s no lifetime commitment. People leave jobs all the time, for all kinds of reasons, and that’s completely normal. If your boss is as great a human as you say, he should be happy for your new situation.

      Third, you are allowed to make decisions that are best for you, even if there’s a negative impact on other people. Obviously, the degree of “allowable selfishness” varies tremendously depending on the relationship and the amount of impact, but your life’s goal can’t be “Never do anything for myself unless there’s zero cost to anyone else.” The thing you want (career advancement) and the way you’re think of pursuing that (changing jobs) are both entirely reasonable. Your needs and wants matter too.

    6. Thankful for AAM*

      Your employer can fire you at any time for any reason. This is business, not personal. Be kind and professional. Who knows, from the cool new job you might be able to help them more!

  43. CM*

    Have you told your boss, or would you be willing to tell her, you’re on the autism spectrum and are comfortable with your own style even if it means some people don’t like you personally?

    I’d suggest clarifying with her whether this is a performance issue — e.g., “you need to get along better with your coworkers because tension on the team is affecting our work” — or her trying to improve your interpersonal skills. If the former, then I think you need to make an effort and show her that you took at least some of her suggestions to try to improve your relationships at work. If the latter, then explaining that you understand your style doesn’t work for everyone, but you’re OK with it and you think that you get along with everyone professionally might help.

  44. Sylvia*

    I’m leaving my job on September 30th (*fist pump*). Next week, I have a new woman starting that I will have to train until I leave. I am totally dreading it!

    I’m just not a good teacher. I’m one of those people where it makes sense in my head, but I’m not good at explaining it so that other people can understand (hence why I didn’t go into academics). I feel like I’m just going to confuse the new person, and it’s going to stress me out.

    I’ve had to do this at previous jobs, and it never goes well because it’s not what I’m good at. I know I have to just suck it up and do my best, but I am NOT looking forward to these next couple of weeks. (BTW, I’m the only one who does my specific job that this person will be taking over, so there is no one else to train her)

    1. Observer*

      Can you write it out? Draw a flow chart? Make a decision tree? Either on computer or on paper.

      People often think different when using different modalities. Also, if you can get some of this information – the concrete steps at least – in a document, that will be helpful to the person who comes in after you even if the actual training doesn’t go so well.

    2. Kara S*

      I’m the same way! I find it helps to write everything out in a detailed document that they can refer to once I’m gone. I also ask if they understand what I’m saying a lot of the time/ask them to do the process for me so I can make sure I explained it correctly.

    3. PollyQ*

      Agreed that documentation is your friend here. Think of your job as just to get the new person started, and to give her resources for after you leave, rather than getting her 100% up to speed.

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      Documentation but also, tell the person you are training! They might have some suggestions about how to manage things.

    5. Nita*

      I’m not a good teacher either. The thing that works for me is explaining the basics, then letting the person try it themselves, and going through their work to show them what works and what needs to be corrected. At least, this works when there are no bad consequences to doing it wrong the first time…

  45. Writer Wannabe*

    I’m very fortunate to be teleworking for my day job. That said, my attention span and morale are at an all-time low, and there are weeks I have literally **nothing** to do. I’ve taken trainings, exercised, read white papers, everything, and the busy season’s October. But bored right now. How do I get out of this funk?

    Also, I find myself following TV shows/stars on Twitter, possibly as a means of escape. I did a writing competition submission, the prize of which may involve actual publication. Is it weird there are days I fantasize about becoming the (next big/great/whatever) author?

  46. Disco Janet*

    Earlier this week I had to go have a chat with one of my bosses. When I got there he was strolling down the hallway not wearing a mask, and he asked me if he needed to put one on for our meeting. In a tone that definitely implied he would think I was ridiculous if I said yes. And ugh, I froze up and let it go. Kicking myself. The next day we were interviewing someone and he asked my coworkers on the panel to be spaced when they entered the room “to give the appearance that we’re social distancing.”

    WTF. He can’t even follow the rules we set for our students! Ughhhh. This whole back to school season just feels like a constant waiting game to see how long it will take us to reach whatever the magical number is that will put us back in virtual schooling (like literally every district around us already is!)

    1. Esmeralda*

      This is a school?

      Oh hell, no.

      Wear your mask, step 6 feet away from him if he moves in close (hold up your hand and say, Name, that’s 6 feet please stop). If he won’t comply, look him right in the eye (from 6 feet away), and say, if a student dies from covid we are all f’d here, so please, put on your mask and stay 6 feet away.

  47. Director of Development*

    Just venting here… I’m going on furlough tomorrow (possibly temporary, probably forever) and everything is rubbing me the wrong way! Please share your sympathy, funny stories, etc… I’m quite aware that in a few hours, this will no longer be my problem!

    I am the lone fundraiser at my tiny nonprofit. One of my last activities was designing a donor survey, which launched this week. The point of the survey is to 1.) identify donors who are interested in purchasing more/different products, 2.) see what programs our donors are most interested in and 3.) gather a little bit of demographic information and communications preferences. The results will be used to develop the year-end fundraising campaign and future donor programs, events, etc. Of course our messaging isn’t “we want to know more about you so we can get you to donate more,” it’s, “knowing more about you and your interests will help us design our programs!”

    I admittedly don’t have much experience in this area—I did help to design a donor survey at my last job, but I did a lot of research into best practices before designing this. A lot of careful thought was put into the number and order of questions, answers, wording etc. I’m lucky to have a colleague that specializes in digital design and actually teaches it at a graduate level—including survey design. They helped me fine-tune the questions and actually built the survey on the back/tech end. They said it was the best survey they have ever worked on. We have been really impressed with the results; the response and completion rate is very high, the feedback we’ve been getting is great. I would say 95% of the people sailed through the survey with no problem and shared positive feedback. HOWEVER…

    This particular nonprofit has a large base of what I’d call “crazy old coots.” This survey has brought them out of the woodwork. They are older and not as tech savvy. They did not realize that there was a back button on the survey because it wasn’t where they were looking for it and complained about that. They didn’t like that some questions were “select as many as apply” and some were “select the one that best applies” (even though each question includes an explanation of which kind it is). They thought there should be more questions (best practices are that you include no more than 11 or else people won’t complete; ours has 10 + “anything else you want to share?”). They want to be able to fill out the survey anonymously (anonymous responses aren’t helpful to us). They put in their email address as youalreadyhaveit @ noneofyourbusiness dot com. (we didn’t pay for the fancy software that sets up a unique link for each potential respondent because WE HAVE NO MONEY AND ARE LAYING OFF EMPLOYEES).

    One crazy old coot is the craziest of them all. I will call him COC for short. COC filled out the survey 5 (!!!) times using fake names and leaving sassy comments in the fill-in fields such as “this survey is badly in need of editting (sic).” He then copied all of the survey questions into an email, which he sent to my boss, with his feedback/suggestions—all of which were either incorrect (“there’s no way to return to previous questions!!” yes there is, you just don’t know how to use a computer) or would make the data less valuable to us (“WHY CAN’T I CHOSE ALL OF THE ABOVE??” because we’re trying to see which message resonates with our donors most strongly and All of the Above doesn’t tell us that!!).

    Again, this is an OPTIONAL survey. There is no obligation to fill it out if you don’t like it! We are offering a small incentive to those who do, which COC claims he doesn’t even want. 95% of the respondents have filled this out easily.

    As it’s my last day, I’m strongly tempted to write a sassy email back to COC thanking him for sharing his time and expertise in survey design and then tearing each and every one of his suggestions to shreds, then in turn suggesting that he check out the computer class at his local senior center. But I won’t, because I want a good reference from my boss. But SO TEMPTING!

    1. Director of Development*

      Woops 1.) on survey purposes above should be “identify donors who are interested in increasing or diversifying their support”

    2. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      This would drive anyone crazy! If your manager is so obtuse that they can’t see the 95% easy completion rate and focus solely on the FIVE responses from this particular COC, I think it’s probably best that you get out of this job anyway. It does sound like it would be pointless to respond to COC in any way – sounds like this person has too much time on their hands and is looking to engage a target in a good juicy argument. If I was a nicer person I might even have sympathy given that the pandemic is probably extra isolating on seniors. But those responses are ridiculous and everyone should be treating the COC/non-tech-savvy responses as outliers. The perfect online survey that everyone can handle easily does not exist, yours sounds great!

      1. Director of Development*

        Awww, thank you! No worries, my boss totally has my back. They’re just a far nicer person than I am and would never tell anyone directly to buzz off :-)

    3. MissBliss*

      At a previous job, we sent out a fundraising email surrounding a workforce development program that would provide “family-sustaining wages” and told the story of a recent graduate who was proud of his new career because he’d gone from incarceration to being able to provide for his children and (in his words) show them what a provider does. We got a response from someone who was absolutely incensed that our organization “only cared about people with families.” While I was reading this person’s email aloud (both because it was ridiculous and also because I wanted to make sure everyone else thought it was ridiculous), my grant writer said “That sounds just like the lady who got mad after [event] at my last job.” I read the email writer’s name aloud… It was the same person.

      It’s really not about you. It’s about them. Some people are just like that.

      2. pencilcase*

        As a single person I do feel like things are often too focused on families. I wouldn’t say anything back in these situations but it is an issue. In Australia our politicians are constantly going on about ‘working families’ and it’s frustrating. What about working singles? There is so much about working parents too when it comes to workforce issues and working mothers.

        As a single you basically become an afterthought in policy and news sometimes.

    4. Malarkey01*

      I know it’s not the same, but the two weeks before my year long maternity leave were AMAZING. Every dumb complaint email I got…del-ete! Someone raised a dumb idea in a meeting…a smaller with “interesting idea, unfortunately I won’t have time to work on it before I go on leave next week”.

      Realizing it just wasn’t my problem for the foreseeable future was so freeing and I found I wasn’t getting the same annoyed frustration anymore.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Just think what a marvelous amount of entertainment you provided in exchange for COC’s donation dollars. You gave them a whole afternoon’s activity to keep them busy, and the delicious sensation of showing up how much smarter they are than you young whippersnappers.

      You gave them a sense of purpose and let them feel very important.

      That’s great value for money.

  48. Keymaster of Gozer*

    What to say to a member of staff who keeps pulling their mask off to sneeze (right into the air, not covering their mouth) but says they can’t breathe through a mask they’ve sneezed in and since they wear the mask the rest of the time it’s not breaking any rules?

    Solutions? Words? Or is this a disciplinary matter?

    (They have no disability or health reason that would make wearing a mask impossible, they just seem to be sneezing a lot)

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Tell them: You’re doing it wrong!

      Also I have sneezed into my mask and continue to use it. It is indeed tempting to remove the mask though; instinct almost but I have resisted.

    2. Bad Hare Day*

      Are you their manager? If not, complain to HR and/or their manager.
      If yes, you tell them that taking their mask off to sneeze is a violation of their rules, since the mask is to be worn AT ALL TIMES and taking it off for “just a second” counts.
      Do not get into an argument about the efficacy of masks or a long explanation of how masks work. This is your verbal warning. The next time I see your nose and/or mouth, it will be a written warning. If it happens a third time, you will be terminated for cause and ineligible for unemployment.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Yup, this is a management position. Basically I think this guy is trying to rules-lawyer around everything. He’s not made a good impression so far by this and asking if my friends who died to Covid ‘could have had any underlying issues that killed them instead’.

        It’s a lot of work to fire someone in the UK, but I also want to make sure I won’t get dragged across the tarmac for a ‘minor infraction’ (sneezing without a mask wouldn’t get you fired pre-Covid, just have people calling you gross for spraying it all over your window/desk/plant etc)

        1. Bad Hare Day*

          Ugh, the rules lawyer! I know Alison has given good advice on how to deal with this kind of person before but I can’t recall the post; something like, “Fergus, we can’t be expected to outline every permissible or impermissible action in the handbook. Part of your job is to exercise good judgement in your conduct at work and to not just obey the letter of the law, but the spirit.” In this case though, he’s pretty flagrantly disregarding the letter of the law in addition to the spirit.

          I know labor laws are different in the UK; you have my sympathies in this instance. I think that removing your mask off to sneeze in this current situation should be illegal. Earlier in the pandemic we had a person come into the local grocery store and cough/sneeze on all the vegetables and a good portion of the other food; the police arrested them and charged them with domestic terrorism. The food that they coughed on was all thrown away and all the surfaces sanitized; they’re on the hook for the cost of the food and the extra cleaning (and probably for the lost sales when the store had to close to disinfect). It didn’t/doesn’t matter one whit if their COVID test came back negative or positive. They were trying to cause a panic and the prosecutor will use the precendent/argument “you can’t shout FIRE in a crowded movie theater (unless you have good faith reason to believe that there is, in fact, a fire).”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      What to say to them:

      1. You’re an idiot.
      2. The entire point of the mask is to catch those droplets that you’re spewing into the air when you sneeze.
      3. Seriously, you’re an idiot.
      4. Removing the mask to sneeze IS BREAKING THE RULES.
      5. Truly an idiot for the ages.
      6. If you won’t sneeze into a mask and then continue to wear it, you need to bring a clean mask to change into. Or line your mask with tissue that you can safely discard AFTER YOU SNEEZE INTO IT.

      And yes, if masks are required, this is a disciplinary matter.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        My first reaction was to go all Red Dwarf and call them a smeghead but glad I reined that one in.

    4. Andie Begins*

      AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

      If you’ve got a mask policy, this could be considered a disciplinary matter, though I’m doubtful that would get you the result you want and not just a fight.

      If you think they’ll be receptive to “the purpose of the mask is to keep all the germy droplets you fling from your mouth inside the mask and out of other people’s lungs, therefore taking the mask off to sneeze completely defeats the purpose – please just sneeze into the mask and then change into a clean mask!” you can spell it out for them – I’ve found that some people aren’t aware (or just haven’t thought about) what it is that the mask actually *does* and why it helps, just that they’re supposed to wear one, so maybe that’s the issue and it’s just a matter of not knowing or not thinking about it?

      If that doesn’t work, I’m not sure where you go from there. Ask them to sneeze into a handkerchief at the very least? Anything to contain the expelled droplets should help.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        His…attitude about masks is ‘they’re pointless, but the government says I have to wear it and so does my employer so whatever’. I’m really, really trying to not lose my temper and be a bad manager, but he’s also a ‘let’s just give the virus to everybody and then herd immunity will end the pandemic’ person right up till I said I don’t want to hear people’s opinions on the pandemic, I just want the rules followed.

        (Have to protect my mental state. One mental breakdown a year is enough)

        1. Observer*

          So, the rules are that he needs to either sneeze in his mask or into a tissue, not the air. You don’t have to let him rules lawyer you. When he starts trying that, shut it down.

        2. allathian*

          I’m so sorry you have to deal with this crap. I sure hope he’ll change his tune if anyone he cares about dies or needs a ventilator. Although if I’m honest, I don’t think anyone this selfish can honestly care about anyone except number one… I hope you can start taking the appropriate steps to get rid of him.

    5. Observer*

      If you are their manager, tell them they need to sneeze into SOMETHING – if not their mask the into a tissue that they discard into a trash receptacle IMMEDIATELY. Uncovered sneezing into the air IS breaking the rules. Don’t argue about it, and treat it as a disciplinary problem.

      If you are not her supervisor suggest the tissue and if that doesn’t work, go to HR.

      Don’t get into the disability issue here, as it’s not relevant. Even if she has a genuine disability that could interfere with mask use, there is on reason she can’t sneeze into a tissue. Even if it means using a LOT of tissues.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Had an idea, I’ve got no objection to providing him with a box of disposable masks (he wears a cloth one he made, which is allowed providing the fabric isn’t see through or mesh or something silly) for him to get a new one once he sneezes in his.

        If he objects to *that* then…I guess we have a bit of a twit on our hands.

        1. Observer*

          He’s a twit anyway. If he objects to the disposable masks, then he’s gone past twit to jerk or covidiot.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        You know that, I know that, all the clever scientists know that…him? Not so much.

        I’m realising through reading all the excellent comments here that my first thoughts were wrong: regardless of underlying issues (or lack of) or pandemics, it’s never going to be appropriate to spray your sneezes over the office and I should just step to being firm that this will become a disciplinary issue if he doesn’t behave.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Yes, that is the right reaction. He can think whatever he wants, but on company time, he needs to follow company rules, which includes covering your face when you sneeze.

          2. allathian*

            Yeah, this. I cannot fathom why this is so difficult for some adults. My 11-year-old is very good about always coughing and sneezing into either a tissue or the bend of his arm, and about washing his hands, without getting at all compulsive about it. Getting snot on your clothes may be gross, but it’s a lot less gross than getting that snot spread in tiny droplets all over the room at 100 mph.

    8. Blue Eagle*

      This is terrible! The whole reason for the person to be wearing the mask is so they sneeze into it and don’t distribute their germs to the entire office.
      I would go immediately to their manager or if their manager is ineffective then to HR. By the way, does your employer provides masks? If so, this yahoo should sneeze into the mask then take a fresh one if needed, but in NO circumstances should a mask be removed to sneeze into the air!
      Man, this would get me mad!

    10. RagingADHD*

      Tell him to bring extra masks so he can change.

      If he peed his pants would he expect to go naked at the office all day?

  49. Mahasamatman*

    I discovered my job has been posted online. The company is confidential, but the location matches and the ad’s job description is word-for-word my job description that was provided to me by our corporate office. I’m 98% sure it’s my job. It is not a job where they would look to bring on a second person in the same role. The company doesn’t have any other locations in the area so it would have to be for my division.

    There have been some management changes and, in the past three weeks, three employees with no documented job performance/disciplinary issues were let go and other people were brought in to replace them. I suspect my job’s on the chopping block too, likely because I make nearly $15k more than my predecessor. There’s a *slim* chance that they’re worried I’m going to follow my old boss to their new employer and this is a preemptive measure, but I highly doubt that given the changes that have already taken place.

    So… do I say something? The cons with that plan is that I could force their hand and they’ll fire me on the spot, which is a loss of income I’d prefer to postpone as long as possible. The pro is that I don’t spend the rest of my time there waiting for the ax to fall. I’m pretty conflict avoidant so I’m tempted not to say anything and just ride it out as long as I can, collecting my sweet, sweet paycheck while networking like crazy and applying for jobs (in this terrible economy!) on the side. Has anyone had experience with a situation like this? How did you handle it?

    1. NotaPirate*

      I would not say anything. You don’t want to advertise you are looking on job sites anyway. Do start searching like crazy just in case. (maybe HR posted the wrong job by accident?)

      1. Mahasamatman*

        I actually wasn’t job searching but I can see how it could come across that way. A co-worker saw the ad and sent it to me out of concern. I honestly can’t think of any way the job could have been posted by mistake as it’s clearly my specific job at our specific location. Typically job postings are handled by each location and would be visible to me through the company’s hiring site. This one isn’t. It’s not as if they accidentally picked the wrong location in a dropdown while posting. They had to go out of their way to be secretive about it.

        1. valentine*

          You: Someone sent me an ad that’s word-for-word my job description and this location. Are we hiring a second lighthouse keeper?

          Manager: [TBD]

      1. Mahasamatman*

        Ha! Good point. I wouldn’t but what could I say at that point? I couldn’t very well argue with them, could I?

    3. MacGillicuddy*

      If you haven’t been job hunting, start now. Collect any information you need in case you’re let go. Get your ducks in a row.

      Even if you ask management if your position is being eliminated, they won’t tell you the truth. So I wouldn’t mention it.

      And definitely DON’T tell anybody at work that you’re job hunting.

  50. Person from the Resume*

    I recently switched to a compressed work schedule:
    Week 1: M-Thurs: 9 hrs (plus 30 min lunch so a 9.5 hour work day) Friday: 8 hrs (plus 30 min lunch)
    Week 2: M-Thurs: 9 hrs (plus 30 min lunch so 9.5 hours), Friday OFF

    Every other Friday is off so it’s a 3 day weekend. I work from home, there’s no commute and I’m really trying to figure if that extra hour on Mondays through Thursdays is is really making me extra tired like I feel or if I would be this tired anyway. My recent 3 day weekends didn’t actually have time for a big, fun activity which I imagined this schedule would allow for. It’s just normal weekend chores done at a slower pace so a bit more relaxing or just as busy but extra time for a few extra chores.

    Of course COVID and hurricanes doesn’t help. With COVID my mood and energy rises and falls based a lot on if I had human social contact that week. And worrying about potential hurricanes have been a significant stressor for the last month and look to remain so for at least a few more weeks.

    What does the group think? Do you think that extra hour could be that much more tiring?

    1. londonedit*

      I definitely think so. We have summer hours where I work – in the summer months you can work extra time Monday-Thursday and then take Friday afternoon off. You have to do an extra 3.25 hours over those four days (our working week is 37.5 hours) so most people do an extra hour Monday-Wednesday and an extra 15 minutes on a Thursday. Whenever I’ve done it, it’s definitely made me more tired! I’m used to a 7.5-hour day, so an 8.5-hour day seems really long. Add to that the fact that you’ve only recently started the new working pattern, and I reckon it’ll definitely take you a few weeks to adjust. In the end I decided the extra effort wasn’t really worth a Friday afternoon off – I’ve done the summer hours a few times if I had something particular that I was doing at the weekend (such as going to visit my family; getting the Friday afternoon off would mean I could get a cheaper train and arrive earlier) but overall it wasn’t worth it just for a random afternoon off. I found I was too tired to properly enjoy it!

    2. CatCat*

      Yes, I think that extra hour could be more tiring if you’re not used to it. Try it for a while, see if you adapt, and if not, could you switch back? I work a similar type of schedule and love it. Another colleague tried it for half a year and ended up switching back because he wanted that hour back.

    3. Brownie*

      It can, but as someone who went to exactly your compressed work schedule from a normal schedule the tiredness went away after 2 or 3 months of getting used to it. And having every other weekend be a 3 day weekend? Fabulous and I don’t think I can ever go back to a regular schedule since it means now I can schedule all my medical and other appointments that have to happen on a weekday on the Fridays I’m off. I’m saving so much PTO time from that alone! I’d say give it a couple months and see if at the end of it you’re still feeling more exhausted overall than with the normal schedule.

    5. Malarkey01*

      This used to be my exact schedule for 20 years, and then a year ago I switched back to 8 hours a day and it made a big difference. I always thought what’s one more hour, but apparently for me it’s a lot. That said, 26 more days off a year is nothing to sneeze at and it makes it easier to arrange daytime appointments, get away for the weekend and vacations a day earlier, etc. (once CoVid is gone and we have vacations and weekend plans).

      It’s also so hard to judge tiredness and energy right now when time has ceased to have meaning as I have days I wear pjs and work from my couch and days I wear pjs and watch tv from my couch (weekends).

    6. Nessun*

      Could very well be! We had seasonal office hours where we worked 1.0 hour more from Jan-June, and that first month was always a total killer. I enjoyed the sudden tradeoff come July, but really, the exhaustion from the busy months was always worse than the joy in the quieter ones. But then, you might adjust and love it? I think it’s really just the value proposition – does a 3 day weekend every two weeks trump being tired? I’d give it some more time to see if you adjust, and make some notes for yourself as you go, so you’re clear on how you felt and if it improved over time.

    7. PollyQ*

      That extra hour could absolutely be extra tiring, although you may find that you get used to it with a little more time. I know it’s tough with everything going on, but is there any way you can commit to leaving 1 of your weekend days for fun only, whether that’s an outing, social thingy, working on a hobby, reading/watching video? If not a full day, then a concerted block, of 6 hours, perhaps? I think that would help you feel more rested the remainder of the week.

    8. Red haired runner*

      My office has flex scheduling but most people work a compressed schedule like yours. I’ve found that when you are busy and have lots to do the extra hour feels like nothing but slow days can make it feel tiring.

  51. stress tears*

    How do you manage stress/frustration crying at work?

    Recently, I’ve started tearing up during meetings with my boss. We’re meeting virtually, so generally when it happens, I can just lean further from the camera. I don’t think it’s too noticeable (glare from light generally bounces off my glasses), and I’m confident that he would follow my lead on how to deal with it (i.e. if I power through the conversation, he won’t draw attention to the tears), but it’s something that I don’t want to happen.

    My sense is that it’s a response to stress. I’m at a busy time at work, and generally feeling the stress of 2020 building up. My boss is supportive, happy with my work, and the meetings are always productive—in many ways it’s an ideal scenario. I think that I’m just putting more weight on these meetings because I’m missing a lot of the other interactions that gave feedback (chatting with coworkers about work, bouncing ideas off of team members outside of meetings, etc…), and so any anxiety/frustration in the meeting is magnified.

    1. NotaPirate*

      I have a couple stress/fidget toys at my desk and I’ve found that helpful. Bean bag texture, fidget cube, squishy ball, silly putty. My boss hasn’t noticed, my hands below camera angle usually. And it helps with stress.

      1. NotaPirate*

        Also make sure you give yourself time to actually be sad if you are pushing it down at work. Watch a sad movie or something.

      2. stress tears*

        That’s actually a great idea– I have a squishy that I can use, and if I’m intentional about it being something to provide calm and focus, it could work well. Now just to make sure that I don’t try waving my hands around to explain something and have the squishy in view of the camera!

    2. Emilitron*

      OMG this is totally me, and I really sympathize. Stress tears are so real! and it’s not like there’s any action I want from the person I’m talking to, them pretending not to notice and allowing me to pretend it’s not happening is about ideal. So thank goodness for Zoom, it’s easier than in person. Setting up your camera to have a bit of glare or defocus is good. I like the idea of squeezy stress balls or fidget toys.

      Any interest in talking with your boss about the fact that you’re stressed? Are you overloaded? Can they do anything to actually help the situation that’s stressing you out?

  52. Help*

    I’m in an extremely toxic, dysfunctional office that is very sexist. As a result, I’m starting to feel down and negative. My coworkers say these little snide comments and sarcastic remarks- I want to say something back, but don’t want to get into trouble. I wish that I was more assertive in situations like this. Is there any way to re-frame your thinking to be more positive? I don’t like feeling this way and am looking to get out, but can’t until I find something first.

    1. Mahasamatman*

      How about trying Alison’s approach of visibly showing surprise in the moment that they would say such a thing? Or reacting with confusion? I can’t readily find an example of one of her posts where she mentioned this tactic, but basically they would say the sarcastic/snide comment and you would look confused and say, “Why would you say that about Engelbert?” or “Strange, that hasn’t been my experience with our llama overloards.” Most of all, try to separate yourself emotionally from those people and recognize that their negative behavior isn’t a reflection on you. Emotional detachment can be hard when you’re stuck with those people for most of your day, but remember that this is just a blip in your life and eventually you’ll move on to a much better situation.

    2. JB*

      I go with confused “sorry I didn’t catch your meaning there” or “can you explain that a little more?”. See if they elaborate.

      Hope you find something soon!

      1. Queenie*

        I super agree with JB, go with this approach! My favourite is to play dumb and in doing so force them to awkwardly explain their comment while you enjoy the panicked back tracking :)

    3. Paperwhite*

      Yeah, as hard as it is to refrain, getting into a sniping match is suboptimal. Jerktastic bullies like those tend to say things that are hard to describe to The Authority Figure, which means you get punished for pushing back.

      I second/third the recommendation to look through Alison’s “Jerks” tag for her advice on how to handle such people. And I send you strength.

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      Name what they are doing and then change the topic. That sounds like sarcasm, do you have those reports or fyi I’ll be taking a late lunch today.

      Or with a totally calm tone and face, say, what do you mean, I don’t understand. Force them to explain the joke or comment. It becomes less rewarding for them.

    5. Nita*

      I don’t know that there’s a way to be positive in an atmosphere like that. But remember that you get to go home at the end of the day and leave these jerks behind. Maybe build in some kind of de-stressing activity to help you get out of the toxic office mindframe while you’re on your way home – a long walk, changing out of work clothes, something like that.

  53. Free Meerkats*

    New employee started Monday. Other than hiccups with technology, it’s gone well so far. The company we get ruggedized tablets from is slow to get us gear in normal times, no telling when it will show up in the Time of Covid.

    We came up with a novel idea to the field tour where we show new people where and who our regulated companies are since we are only allowed one person in a vehicle right now. The senior plant operator has a Polaris Slingshot (https://slingshot.polaris.com/en-us/), so I borrowed that and off we went. Our safety official bought off on it, since it’s not enclosed. Fun drive.

  54. Therese*

    I have a weird situation. So I am a bookkeeper for a restaurant as an employee. During the COVID shutdown they did all these renovations in the kitchen. Off the kitchen I worked in a small office that they made dry storage and they moved me to this other office. Which honestly I was glad b/c that office was a million degrees and noisy. But because the computer I was using was connected to the server it had to stay in that office. So they just told me to bring my own laptop to use. Which my boss was doing already. Which I don’t really agree with but it’s like an awkward situation. But now 6 months later I have all these work files on my laptop. Should I transfer these files to the server computer every few months? I’m just concerned about it if I ever leave this job. Also these files are taking up space on my hard drive. My mom says the restaurant needs to buy me a laptop to use and my boss a laptop to use in this office but they are cheap and I feel like I can’t even say anything now about any of this. I guss this is more of a rant than anything.

    1. BadWolf*

      That seems short sighted of the restaurant to not have any backup plans in place (and expecting you to bring your own device, of course).

      At the very least, ask if they can spring for a back up harddrive or maybe an online backup account — they’re not that expensive and then you can keep all the files on there (and back up to the server).

      1. BadWolf*

        To clarify, I meant an external harddrive that you could plug in with a USB (or whatever is compatible with your system). Although if your boss starts using it as well, I would be worried about plugging it back in your laptop (viruses, etc).

    2. Brownie*

      Get them off your personal computer ASAP. It might be okay to have working copies of documents on a personal computer, but keep all the work files on work computers as much as possible. You never want to be in a position of “my laptop got stolen/broken and now all the company files are gone” or have your boss suddenly decide that they need full access to your laptop because the files are there. Company files need to be on a company computer if they could in any way, shape, or form be considered company property. If you absolutely need to keep a copy of the files, for backup or working purposes, consider using a USB drive or small external hard drive which can be handed over immediately should your boss/restaurant owner/tax auditor demand the files or if you decide to leave the job.

      1. Therese*

        Well the files are saved in my dropbox account so I can access them on the cloud if necessary. But I’m with you I have like invoices and payroll files all on my computer.

        1. Brownie*

          I am waving the danger red flag right now. Don’t even keep them in a personal dropbox unless they’re a copy, always keep the masters on the company server and keep them updated daily if possible, weekly at minimum. If things go south in the business relationship you having the master files could be held against you as proof of your bad intentions to sabotage the company/possessiveness/inability to cooperate and so on. I don’t know how likely it is for that to happen to you, but once is too many times. It shattered my confidence and made me vow never to use personal resources for a company ever again when it happened to me the first time. Later on that actually served me well as I was able to build a habit out of work = work and stays within the work fences away from personal and that has made things so much better than they could have been in many situations since then. Your company/boss has shown that they won’t watch your back with this kind of stuff so it looks like you have to watch your own.

          1. Palladium*

            If you have payroll, what happens if your laptop gets stolen? Will there be a company – damaging data breach?

            Follow the advice others have given to get rid of those files ASAP.

    3. Observer*

      Your workplace is being beyond stupid.

      Start transferring your files weekly, or even daily.

      They can move your computer – it should not be that big of a deal to run more wires but if it is, wireless works. And even a desktop can use wireless although they will probably need to attach a dongle – but these are as cheap as $20.

      If they can’t / don’t want to do that, they can get you laptops and set up wifi- laptops all come with wifi built in.

      They may be cheap, but your mom is right. Completely so. Bring it up with them.

    4. PollyQ*

      You should automatically back up your hard drive nightly. Whether that’s to the restaurant’s server or a third-party cloud should be the call of the restaurant. Unless we’re talking very large amounts of data, there are free or cheap cloud providers, and many cloud backup apps will allow you to back up to a private server or hard drive as well, also for free.

      I agree that, in general, businesses should provide employees with their own hardware, and I think there’s no harm in asking, at least. You may be right that they’ll push back, but perhaps planting a seed now will make it more likely to happen when there’s more money.

    5. valentine*

      This sounds like a near-sarcastic “What could go wrong?” security policy training video.

      Please say something. Tell them you need a new computer or *shudder* access to the old one.

      They keep the server in a hot room?!

    6. Not trying to be rude, just good at it*

      I can’t speak for your place of employment but many restaurants are bleeding cash right now. Do they have an extra $500 or $1000 for a new laptop. You can buy an external hard drive on amazon for about $30. Be thankful you are still working. So many of my restaurant friends are driving for food delivery services right now because we are in an area that is still at 25% operating for indoor dining.

  55. Dorian*

    If a peer resigns and nothing is said directly to you, do you mention it to them? I want to wish this person well but haven’t heard the news from her. Her boss is very disappointed and I think the peer feels terrible about that. Say something or wait? I wish her well and would love to keep in touch.

    2. BadWolf*

      I think sending an email like, “Hey, I heard around the grapvine you might be resigning. If that’s the case, I hope your next thing goes well and feel free to drop me a line. Or maybe we can grab coffee or lunch.”

    3. And I thought I was hiding*

      I resigned last week. (Recalled to work after covid, but they cut all my benefits and my hours, about a 55% loss of compensation, which I found unacceptable. I’m fortunate enough to be able to do that.) My supervisor is disappointed. I did feel bad, I loved what I did. I resigned to the director via the form sent with the recall notice, therefore I’ve only directly spoken with my supervisor and a close coworker.
      Go ahead and email me, I mean them, they will probably appreciate it your well wishes. And if not, they can choose not to respond.

    4. Emilitron*

      A lot of times the person resigning does somewhat rely on the grapevine. Really it’s on the organization to announce, or it comes up at meetings (Since Jane will be leaving us Oct 1, we’ll need to …) Definitely not Jane’s responsibility to contact/inform each person, so it would be out of bounds for her to expect that nobody knows. Absolutely you can contact her and tell her you heard she’s resigning. (also reasonable to not name names or context for how you got the news)

  56. Lizabeth*

    Alison, I want to thank you for this blog! I’ve been casually looking for another position since fall 2018 when I moved & started working remotely due to parents. There’s not many jobs around the area for me (graphic design). Recently I answered an ad that mentioned remote as an option for the right person. They came back with a list of questions to answer, which I did and got a phone interview on Monday. WOOT! I don’t think the phone interview would have happened if I had not been reading your blog – I felt like I hit a home run with it – context, tone, everything.

    And another job I had applied for in March that disappeared after things shut down has been put back up on their website. Another chance at it – and the cover letter will be much, much different this time. The only downside is that they are also looking for a Director of Communications (who this position would report to) The person who was in the job in March was someone that I was interested in working with after reading their LinkedIn profile. But we’ll see what happens.

    My question to everyone – what’s the best way to handle a phone interview? I’m going to be surfing on their website this weekend looking it over to prepare but I haven’t ever done one before. Any and all suggestions are welcome!

    1. Emilitron*

      For scheduled phone interveiws, I’ve opened up all the relevant documents on my computer – my resume, the job posting, browser tabs of relevant parts of the company website, etc. I didn’t need to actually refer to them during my converastion but having the info on hand made me feel a lot calmer. Like regular interview prep, go down the list of common questions and think about your answers.
      Honestly they’ve got your resume, they’ve had the text Q&A that you sent in, so one of the primary purposes of the phone call is just to verify that you’re a reasonable human being who seems to be who you say you are on paper.
      I bet it’ll go great!

  57. Kiki*

    Does anyone have tips for creating better interdepartmental cohesion?
    I’m a relatively recent addition to my company, but have noticed there is tension between departments and teams. It used to be a fairly small company and I think it was easy for everyone to be aware of what was happening and establish rapport with everyone else. The company has grown *a lot* in the last few years and it has struggled to adjust. Before, you could literally just bring everyone together for a meeting. Now, that’s not really possible. It feels like management’s ideas right now all revolve around having more meetings to talk things through with more people involved, but it doesn’t feel like any of these meetings are truly valuable. I feel like this is a fairly common problem– any tips or warnings from people who’ve been in a similar boat?

    1. BlueBelle*

      Unless you are a leader there isn’t much you can do to change the culture. What you can do, especially being a more recent hire, is establish your relationships with open and transparent communication. You can pretend you don’t know there is a culture of being siloed. One of the ways I have done it is to reach out to people or teams directly and ask if I can present what my team is doing at their next team meeting or I invite them to speak at my team meeting.
      Often when that is the culture it takes 2-5 years of really strategic planning to change that. I working in Talent Development and this is part of what my job is. When I started at my company everyone was like this- even my boss (ex boss now, thank goodness) was secretive about things. I hated it, but now 5 years later of a very targeted approach and message it has gotten so much better. I love it here now.

    2. Chaordic One*

      Try to see that each department is treated fairly. Back at Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd.” they dramatically increased the number of people in the marketing department and after a highly successful marketing campaign dramatically increased sales. Unfortunately, they did not hire any additional people in production or order fulfillment and those departments struggled and occasionally buckled under the increased workloads. Marketing was able to attend offsite team-building activities and would be let go early on Friday afternoons. They became regarded as being the “chosen ones” as they were the ones responsible for the increase in orders. The other departments, which had to cope with increased workloads, felt neglected and unappreciated.

      Production and Fulfillment no longer had any bandwidth to do any double-checking on orders that were nonstandard or incomplete and grew resentful of Marketing. When they came across obvious mistakes on the orders they let them be processed, when the orders were incomplete they’d guess and fulfill them any old way. Maybe right, maybe wrong. The product suffered from quality issues because of it. It took a long time before management realized the error of their ways, but by them the whole company had a poor reputation and a lot of good people were thrown under the bus, many more left for other jobs and the ones who are left are burnt-out and cynical, although they are good at covering it up.

  58. ALM2019*

    I’m breaking from meeting burnout and don’t know what to do. Since we went to WFH in March the meeting schedule is just out of hand. We were heavily scheduled before but this is unsustainable. For example, most days are booked back to back from 8:00-5:00. No breaks in between. For me personally I need time to get water, grab lunch, and go to the bathroom (because I’m a human, not a robot). Doing these things means I’m always 5-10 minutes late to someone’s meeting. Our meetings also never end on time, which means the next is delayed and it carries on throughout the day. I’ve tried blocking my calendar for a 30 minute break mid-day but it always gets double booked. I spoke with my boss last week and the response I got was “that’s just how it is since we’re WFH”, but I can’t do this. Leaving isn’t an option right now. So do I just keep being a few minutes late here and there? No one has really complained, and when someone pointed it out I simply said “I’ve been in meetings for X number of hours. Needed 5 minutes”

    Sorry this is a rambling post, I just can’t mentally or physically handle it anymore.

    1. BadWolf*

      Wow, that’s a lot. I don’t blame you.

      For a workaround, do you have to paying attention to all of these meetings all of the time? Are you expected to be on camera all of the time? If you can be on audio only, can you join the meeting, then take a break? If you have the minutes, can you join via cellphone and take a walk? Can you bring the laptop into the kitchen and do the dishes? (While on mute, of course). Excuse to avoid video occasionally, if that’s abnormal for you: “My internet’s been choppy today, it’s easier to be on audio only.”

      1. ALM2019*

        The one positive is we don’t use video. So that helps. I can’t call from my cell as the company guidance is to connect through your computer to avoid costs. I could potentially work from the kitchen for a bit but would need to disconnect and reconnect as my WiFi isn’t the greatest. For the meetings where I don’t have to be 100% engaged I will catch up on other work and email. Or, occasionally I connect and then message a coworker in the same meeting that I need to step away for a few minutes. I think if I could just get 15 minutes away from it I’d be ok.

        1. BadWolf*

          Other ideas: Do a yoga break or similar, if home office space permits. Do you have a hobby you do in the background (I knit on some meetings where I really need to listen and not multi task other work items)?

          What happens if you decline a meeting a day –like rotate through them? “Hey peeps, I’ll miss Status Meeting Alpha Llamas today.”

      2. Middle Manager*

        Agree! We do use video, but if it’s a large meeting or one that I’m not a key person in (not the primary subject matter expert/facilitating the meeting, etc) no one seems to care when I turn off the camera for a few minutes to go get a drink, grab a sandwhich, move. I’m too paranoid to use that trick to go to the bathroom though, just way too worried I’ll mess up and have a mute/unmute or video slip up and I can’t live with that.

        I was really grateful that pretty early on a super clear message was sent by the head of our agency that no meetings should be scheduled from 12-1. People still do it sometimes if there are truly no other options, or if they are just two people who don’t mind watching each other eat while they talk. But is was clear enough that I haven’t felt pressure to skip lunch for meetings on a regular basis.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I think any advice would have to be work-culture specific. It sounds like your boss didn’t have any useful guidance, although could you specifically ask for help in managing all the meetings? Do you know what your coworkers do about it? How mandatory is your presence and what kind of impact will it have if you drop out of a meeting on time or a few minutes before the next?

      Here most people have 6-9 hours of meetings on their calendars every day, sometimes double and triple booked, and it’s true that this situation exists because we’re all WFH. BUT, it’s understood that most meetings are not mandatory and it’s expected everyone has to prioritize and pick the ones they most need to support. There’s also a general expectation of waiting 3-5 minutes after the official start time before actually starting the meeting because people are going to be jumping off one call for another and need a break. Same with leaving a meeting at the official end time even if it’s still going on.

      1. I take tea*

        That’s a ridiculous amount of meetings. When do you get to do any actual work? I mean, I suppose you have to implement things discussed in the meetings?

        Could you try to push back if people book a meeting on top of your blocked off time? Just don’t accept the meeting, because you have a conflict?

        Another thing you could do, if people really don’t accept your blocked off time is to conspire with a trusted colleague that you two absolutely have to schedule a meeting for something important. Then you both get a break.

    3. Khatul Madame*

      Do you have/can you use wireless headphones that connect to your laptop? At least you could step away to the bathroom or to get a snack… or just pace the room while listening.

  59. Farrah Sahara*

    Anyone ever had a situation like this?

    Recently, a person reached out to me on LinkedIn and asked to connect with me. I saw we had 3 people in common, she personalized her request based on my profile and even asked to set up a Zoom meeting so we could meet & greet one another, share best practices and discuss a few industry related things. We had a few pleasant back & forth exchanges and everything seemed good.

    The morning of the meeting, I received an invite cancellation. No explanation, no apology or request to reschedule. She belongs to a professional organization for our industry and is the chapter president of the local branch in her city. When she reached out to me, it was in the capacity as her role as the president of this group, as in, “Hi, I’m the branch president of XX in YY city…”, not as a random person with the same job title as myself.

    I have not reached out to her again, as I feel it’s up to the person that originally requested & booked the meeting to do so.

    So here’s my question: do I ignore this, delete her as a contact or just pretend like we never connected? Having this new connection is not going to impact my career in any way, but I was shocked at how unprofessional this was, especially as the public face of that organization!

    I’ve been ghosted by employers when applying for jobs, but never by a “professional contact” who reached out to me first. Is this common now on LinkedIn?

    1. Emilitron*

      Give her a week or two, if something genuinely came up the last thing she needs is people blocking her in a huff. Agreed it’s unprofessional and if you never hear from her again it’s no loss… and if you never hear from her again until she next needs something you’re authorized by this stranger on the internet to hold it against her.

    2. WFH with Cat*

      Considering the pandemic, I don’t think you can discount that she might have just had something awful happen that caused her to cancel appointments as fast as possible. (And, of course, she could be in the middle on a non-pandemic crisis of some kind.) I’d probably message her through LinkedIn just to say that I was disappointed to have our meeting cancelled and that I hope that all is well with her, and leave it at that for now. Any further action, like deleting her from my contacts, would depend on whether or not she responds to my message, explains the cancellation, etc.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This. I’d just say “sorry to miss you, hope all is well.”

        The world is on fire, schools are closing, and people are dying. Maybe she’s just being a flake, but chances are good that something went wrong.

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      I don’t think this is that big of a deal! I don’t think it rises to the level of “shocked at how unprofessional this was.”

      If you want to meet her, reach out to reschedule. Otherwise, just forget about it.

  60. Noncommittal Username*

    Short version: I feel like I am frequently competing with my coworker in a way that is exhausting. I want to drop the rope, but when I’ve done it in the past, its gone poorly. How do I handle this?

    Long version: I work in a department of three: my supervisor, myself, and my counterpart. (We have the same title but do very different things day to day.) Our company is fairly small and our department is quite specialized, so no one else really understands what we do. Ever since my counterpart was hired I have struggled with feelings of jealousy and competition with him, and I have to fight back the impulse to assume that everyone is comparing us.

    The problem is, lately its been obvious that people do compare us. When they don’t compare us, they lump us together and treat us as one unit. For example, we might both get promoted soon at the exact same time, which grates at me because it feels like it doesn’t recognize our individual contributions and efforts. It feels like a sibling/twin relationship where we are vying for attention and recognition, and are seen by so many as interchangeable.

    Our supervisor works very hard to keep things exactly equal, which usually feels like burden rather than a benefit. We aren’t equal! I have strengths my counterpart doesn’t, and vice versa. I’m tempted to tell my supervisor that I’d rather get equitable treatment, not equal treatment, but knowing our dynamic it won’t go over well. It does not help that my supervisor favors my counterpart (they just click better; no one has any problem with my work and I’ve recently gotten perfect scores on an evaluation). Right now, “equal treatment” is helping ensure that I’m not left out in the cold.

    Does anyone have tips for how to help me deal with this? The anxiety I put myself through with trying to compete or distinguish myself is exhausting, but when I don’t do, I see consequences in how I’m treated. Every email where my counterpart and I are both cc’d feels like a performance for who will have a better answer.

    I want to drop the act- how can I?

    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      What’s your relationship like with your coworker? Can you get to a friendlier place, where you feel like you’re on the same team and rooting for them to be successful too?

  61. Jaded Millenial*

    Document everything. This sounds like it’s close to going over the line into illegal workplace harassment. Familiarize yourself with your workplace’s harassments and reporting policies.

    As for how to get through it, remind yourself that his behavior has everything to do about him and his issues/failings and nothing to do about you and your actions. You acted appropriately. He did not. You are in the right.

  62. "Does that Make Sense?"*

    Yesterday I was reading an old thread on AAM and it included many comments that someone asking “does that make sense?” was infuriating as it implied they were unable to comprehend, and they would only ask it as a substitute for “can you really not get this?” It was also stated that people who ask that question are implying they don’t really know the subject matter, and think they don’t make sense. And this got me thinking. I’m a teacher and I often ask my class “Does that make sense?” after explaining a concept. In that context, do you find it demeaning? How, as a student, would you prefer for your instructor to check on your understanding? Is it different for a teacher? Many thanks for your thoughts and insights!

    1. 1234*

      I ask that when I’m not sure if I am being clear. People have asked me that as well. I’ve never heard it in the tone of “are you really that dumb that you can’t understand it?” Instead I hear it as “I want to make sure we are on the same page.”

      As an instructor, would it help you to ask “does anyone have any questions about what I just went over?” which also conveys the same meaning, if you are worried about asking “does that make sense?”

    2. Kiki*

      People may have different opinions, but I think that especially in a teaching context asking if something makes sense, ugh, makes a lot of sense! And I don’t find it demeaning. I may switch it up sometimes and prompt questions when handling especially hard-to-grasp concepts (What questions do y’all have?)

    3. londonedit*

      I think it is different for a teacher. As a teacher, it’s your job to introduce students to unfamiliar concepts, and ‘does that make sense?’ is a perfectly reasonable way of checking that you’ve explained something in a way your students can understand.

      Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with someone using that phrase in a work situation either – I often use ‘Hope that all makes sense!’ in emails after I’ve explained something complicated or something I know someone might be unfamiliar with. Not because I’m doubting my ability to explain it clearly, but because I understand that the process might not be familiar to the person I’m corresponding with, and I want them to know that if they don’t get it, it’s not a problem and I can explain further. I usually follow up with ‘Please let me know if you have any questions’. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it used to mean ‘Can you really not get this??’, but of course it’s all about context, and I’m sure there are people who do use it with that sort of tone, and/or people who would assume that’s what was meant.

    4. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I think this is perfectly fine. I have used this phrase when I’m explaining some kind of abstruse point or technical nuance (I frequently have to abridge so my explanations don’t get so long folks don’t read them), and I have received it from others in the same vein without ever feeling like it was used in a “Don’t you get it, you nitwit?” kind of way.

      That said, usually when I write, “I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear…” it definitely means CAN YOU READ? I have on a couple of occasions used that sincerely when I really wasn’t clear about something too though so YMMV.

    5. "Does that Make Sense?"*

      Thank you for your thoughts! I do use other phrases, “do you have any thoughts about that?” “do you have any questions?” “what about this is confusing to you?” but realized I used “does that make sense” frequently. I’m glad to hear you don’t find it insulting! To be honest, I was surprised by many of the comments in the prior thread, and want to make sure I’m not totally off base.

      1. Coffee Bean*

        I tend to preface explanations for complex processes with “this is difficult for me to explain, so if it’s not making sense, please let me know.”. Opens the door for questions to ensure there is mutual understanding.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      If I ask, “Does this make sense?” I mean “Am I explaining this in a way that is at all coherent and intelligible?” The odds are much greater that I’ve chosen a misguided way to explain something than they are that my audience isn’t capable of understanding he situation.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        That’s how I use it, too… it means, “I’ve just said a thing, and I want to make sure I have not garbled it so badly that it’s incomprehensible to people who aren’t me.”

        I didn’t see the original thread that suggests it is considered offensive by some people, but I would be sorry to lose the use of it, because it’s been such a useful phrase for me to check my own communication with.

    7. PhysicsTeacher*

      Hmm, I have some thoughts about this.

      First off, I purposely don’t ask my students “does that make sense?” or “do you have any questions?” because as a student those questions are too easy to just answer “yes” or “no” to, respectively, and then go off on your merry way without actually understanding, especially if you’re worried about what other students will think of you. Additionally, teaching physics, it’s very easy for something to make sense to the students when they watch me do it, but maybe they still don’t understand how to tackle a similar problem themselves. I pivoted a few years ago to asking “what questions do you have?” specifically because it implies that the default state is that you should have questions. When I’m helping a student with an individual question, I’ll often say my piece and then ask “was that helpful?”.

      I don’t think “does that make sense?” is demeaning. I do think it is perhaps not the optimal question for student learning.

      1. "Does that Make Sense?"*

        Great thoughts – I do try to use “what questions do you have?” and will ramp that phrase up. I appreciate your input.

    8. ...*

      I personally find it really annoying, but mostly because the person who does it to me all the time is condescending and a slacker lol.

    9. Thankful for AAM*

      Most students will not say no bc it means they have to admit they don’t understand.

      Another way is to ask them to repeat it. Or do a quick poll, who wants me to repeat, go faster, go slower?

      1. pancakes*

        That really depends on the students and the setting. People who genuinely want to learn and/or are accustomed to asking smart questions and having them answered respectfully aren’t embarrassed by the process of learning. Asking a group of grad students or a small elective seminar in a crazy-expensive liberal arts school to repeat what they’ve just been told would not go over well. In a setting where there’s no sense of being or learning to be one another’s intellectual peers it might be fine.

  63. Matilda Jefferies*

    What’s your favourite project management tool? MS Project is absolutely not what I’m looking for, but I’m sure there must be something out there can do what I’m thinking. In addition to the below, it needs to be free, and it needs to run either on the internet or on M365.

    I manage a team of five people, and we all work on overlapping projects. So it looks something like this:
    Teapot handles: Jane and Katherine
    Lids: Katherine and Lenore
    Glazing: Lenore and Michelle

    Basically, it’s just one big spaghetti bowl of many-to-many relationships between projects and people. So I’m looking for a tool that can provide 3 different views – a dashboard, details by project, and details by person. And of course the ability to click back and forth between them. If I’m looking at the handles project and want to know what else Jane is working on, I need to be able to click on her name and go directly to her profile. Also the ability to enter info into any one of the views, and have it automatically populate to the others.

    I don’t imagine this is a unique problem, so I’m sure somebody has already come up with a solution! But I’m having trouble wading through all the results on Google, so I thought I’d throw it out to this group. Thanks in advance!

    1. Girasol*

      Your examples sound more like processes than projects. If that’s really how the work looks, you might take a look at some of the Agile kanban management software offerings that are better for ongoing processes than projects that begin and end.

    2. Clever username goes here*

      Give Asana a try – I believe you can use it for free up to a certain number of people, maybe minus a few features. They just released a Dashboard feature which I find very helpful.

    3. Queenie*

      We use an online, cloud based software called Podio and I really like it! It’s extremely customizable, and best of all its free!

  64. Jane Victoria*

    I’ve recently taken a position as Chief of Staff to the newish head of a large non-profit. She operates primarily by focusing her attention on whatever is in front of her, pulling all-nighters to get big things done (op-eds, reports, etc.), and placing large holds on her calendar when she wants time for something. Does anyone have suggested resources or tools for getting things more together–to-do lists, prioritization, a system for color-coding what is flexible vs a hard schedule on the calendar, to slowly wean her away from internal administrative minutiae and focusing more on strategic initiatives? (I’m a KanbanFlow devotee, but I don’t think it will work for her and the rest of the senior administrative team).

    2. Queenie*

      I posted above but take a look at Podio, its a tool my team uses and we love it! It’s really customizable, free, and offers a lot of what it sounds like you need!

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) may fit well. I know of several nonprofits that have adapted it. There’s some associated software for prioritizing and tracking projects (“rocks”), metrics, and to do’s.

  65. BadWolf*

    I just finished a big, long term project and I’m really, really, really having a hard time jumping into my new project. I am taking the afternoon off to try and give my brain a little more vacation time to come back fresh.

    Also, one of my very few female coworkers is leaving for a new job and it’s making me think about what I’m doing here and why she might be leaving. To be frank, I thought she was on track to be a big star and I’d hoped she’d be moving up in leadership.

  66. OkapiFeels*

    In a public library in FL and we were told Tuesday that we’re moving to limited opening hours by the end of the month. The plan is, uh, complicated and not very popular; there’s been a LOT of issues with admin during this COVID time, and a lot of staff losing trust. We also recently lost our branch manager who was a big positive influence in admin.

    Some of the re-opening was discussed yesterday and the coworker who sits next to me got so mad she started screaming (like, loud enough to be heard down the hall), slammed shit around, and then stomped off into the pouring rain. I had already been having issues with this coworker (she’s a sharer and the type that will use any excuse to draw you into her ongoing drama about her health, which has gotten REAL OLD in COVID times), who I previously considered a friend. I have PTSD and her screaming incident was bad for me.

    I’m working on self care, but if anyone has any boundary setting advice, please share. (Other than headphones. I do use headphones. Headphones only do so much)

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Wow. I mean, most of my library meetings everyone is so passive aggressive that as close as you get to screaming is people staring at each other meaningfully while drinking tea with more intensity than usual. But seriously, I say this not just to joke, but to point out that this behavior is absolutely, 100% not work appropriate. Screaming in a meeting is fine if you’re being attacked by Zombies, other times… not so much.

      Having said that, I don’t think you can change her behavior, because people who scream in meetings and then storm out are likely rather unrepentant. So, your coworker isn’t going to change. Instead I would focus on what you can change. Maybe that means being more comfortable saying to her, “You know, I really don’t like discussing medical stuff at work. Just kind of a thing of mine.” Or using headphones (as you are) or getting okay saying, “I’m so sorry, I can’t talk right now, I really need to finish planning the Toddler Time.”

      I have one exceedingly negative coworker. Basically, if you can imagine the most negative spin you could possibly put on an issue, she will come up with it. So, I play a game in my head where I imagine what her reaction will be and give myself a mental high five when I successfully guess. So, maybe if there’s a way you can see her as a rather strange office comedy it might take down your frustration a few notches.

      1. OkapiFeels*

        (This is just total bitching but we’re being so micromanaged right now that i have one program to do for the next four months and my only other outlet to connect with patrons is through blogs on our website, which are famously never read. i’m so creatively unfulfilled at work right now and i have watched so many bad webinars, aaaaaaaaaa)

        I agree that I can’t change my coworker’s behavior. I think that’s part of the tension and frustration; I keep expecting her to be more self-aware of her actions and of my (non-verbal) cues that i’m setting up boundaries, but it’s….never gonna come. Also frustrating is that I went through a very similar situation 2 years ago, which was only solved when that person promoted away from the branch. So I keep hoping and wishing she’s just gonna disappear.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          If you can lower your expectations and try to use your words (though as a sufferer from social anxiety, using my words is HARD), then the I think you have more of a chance of surviving. I also think you’re right that some of this is likely not about her, but about other work frustrations.

        2. Glitsy Gus*

          That is very frustrating. Super frustrating. Especially when it sounds like your department is a bit of a pressure cooker right now on top of this issue. But yeah, if she hasn’t gotten it by now she isn’t going to. Just remember, it really isn’t rude to say something like, “yeah, this pandemic has really been wearing away at me. I really need to take a break from discussing any kind of medical stuff right now. ” or, “I understand why you feel that way, but I need to step away for a while right now. Continuing to discuss it makes me even more anxious than I already am.” and head to the ladies room for a few minutes or something.

          I know you probably don’t want to get too into your own mental health issues, but most folks get some kind of anxiety when folks loose their sh*t like that, so it isn’t really odd you would need a moment to collect yourself and wouldn’t want to keep rehashing the issue over and over. Just be warm and friendly the rest of the time, and she’ll probably see that you mean exactly what you say- it isn’t personal, there are just topics you don’t want to talk about right now. But I do want to sympathize, this isn’t fun.

  67. 1234*

    A recruiter I am Facebook friends with posted that people should not put Uber or Lyft driver on their resumes unless they are applying for a driver job. His rationale is that these jobs don’t have actual “bosses” since you work when you want to and don’t report to anyone. Other people commented to only put it if you have a high rating and to show that at an interview as an “achievement”

    I’m just curious as to what this groups thoughts are. (I am not a driver for Uber or Lyft and am just purely interested in people’s opinion)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Honestly, I wouldn’t consider it relevant at all unless you were applying for a job as a driver, no matter how high your rating is.

    2. D3*

      I guess my entire 20 years of self employment running my own business are not worth putting on a resume since I didn’t have an “actual boss?”
      That’s ridiculous.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Wouldn’t be helpful in profession – IT.

      Maybe a high rating relates to something in sales, but I’m not even sure about that.

      The most it would show is that you weren’t unemployed exactly, but if the bias is “you couldn’t find a job in your field” working for Lyft/uber doesn’t counteract that.

    4. Emilitron*

      I would say absolutely list if if they’re also listing other “non-career” type jobs. A recruiter (especially the kind who’d be posting career advice on LinkedIn) is probably mostly dealing with white-collar jobs and people on a career track. Often the advice is that if someone’s been laid off and worked retail or service jobs to pay the bills for a while, they wouldn’t include those in the resume used to apply for jobs in their original career, though would of course volunteer that info if asked about the resume gap. And I’d see Uber/Lyft very similarly, if it’s not adding to the skills narrative, don’t include it.

      But if the resume in question is applying to be a retail employee or store manager or something where dealing with Karen the Customer is a skill to be demonstrated, that experience is relevant and the recruiter’s advice is a bit myopic.

    5. ...*

      I think it helps to show you were doing something and you were too good to take what was available; that you prefer working at something considered ‘grunt work’ than stagnating and doing nothing. I wouldn’t really care about their rating though haha

    6. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I’d bet money that friend also says, “Toss this resume, it has a gap,” and that’s why people feel pressured to put things like Uber/Lyft driver on their resume in the first place.

  68. Jellybeans*

    I’m fairly new in my job and still struggling to make sense of the many data sources I work with. One thing that makes it harder is my boss LOVES using hardcoded data in reports, with little documentation. Which makes it difficult to tell what’s included in the figures and update the report in the future. Any advice for approaching this with him, or dealing with it if that’s unwise? Thanks!

    1. Junior Dev*

      Hardcoded how so? Are you writing a programming language like R or Python?

      Do you know where his figures come from? If you can make it as easy as possible to eg copy/paste from a spreadsheet into a text file, or parse the spreadsheet yourself, it might make him more likely to work with you.

      1. Jellybeans*

        I don’t know where his figures come from, I have to ask every time. It’s spreadsheet data, not a programming language. An example would be him pulling paint sales figures from another report, without specifying whether that included sales from just the craft supplies or also the toy department, and whether “paint” included watercolors and multimedia kits. This would be obvious if he linked to the original report, but he breaks all of his links (and mine too, whenever he gets the chance,) and doesn’t reference the source.

    2. Product Person*

      Tell your boss that now that the company has you to take the work off their shoulders, you want to start replacing hardcoded values with formulas and references to the source. Treat it as a normal evolution of the work as opposed to something they were doing wrong.

      Tell the boss you’ll need to spend some time with them to clarify some figures. Don’t ask how they have calculated the values, though, ask if they want crafts and toys or just crafts data. This way if they initially made mistakes in calculations, these won’t propagate to the new version.

      And when you start to release the new reports, explain what they should do not to break the links you’ve created!

  69. Rachel*

    I’m a young member of the workforce in my first 40-hr, 9-5 job. I’m a receptionist/secretary/assistant at a small franchise location with about five office employees and about 40 offsite employees. The franchise owner brought me on about six weeks ago to fill a new amalgam role – the closest approximation to my “preceding” employee would have been the person in charge of hiring and HR. Those duties have been lumped onto the scheduling person. From what I can tell, in the last few years, there’s been a LOT of shuffle, to the point where it seems the whole staff was replaced at some point in the last five years.
    Now, my job is to assist the hiring/scheduling manager and try to work out the unimaginable horror that is their HR filing cabinet. I spent the first two and a half weeks cataloguing what was missing just from the active employees – a LOT, including I9’s, background checks, etc – and there are about 350+ inactive employees that I still need to check. I have no training in HR, no real guidelines, am expected to be next to the phone to answer calls – in the other room from the filing cabinets – and to do almost all the hiring save for the interviews themselves because scheduling is a 24/7 job. It feels like a team of HR-trained professionals might be able to piece this back together. The owner and other employees keep talking about how bad an audit would be, that it would put them out of business, that the files need to be retroactively completed even if that’s impossible, etc. I know the blame lies mostly with the former hiring/HR manager, because they fired her because of a failed audit.
    Other than that, I like the workplace, but I’ve asked multiple times for clear goals and what I can expect a “normal” to look like and gotten brushed off even asking bluntly, or told that since my position is new, there isn’t a normal they know of.
    How do I raise my concerns that I don’t feel equipped to do the job I was hired for? I don’t want to be fired for failing to be able to meet expectations, but I’m terrified if the home office performs an audit, it’ll be my fault for not having finished cataloguing and fixing the legal paperwork.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Let me start with this: You are not responsible for the business succeeding or failing. You are responsible for doing what you reasonably can do with the authority granted you. If the business fails an audit, they fail. The problems were there before you came and you are not a magical fairy. So, try to let that one go.

      Okay, so my job was empty for 11 years before I got it. Which means, yeah, I feel your pain. I am doing the exact same thing, though with different types of paperwork. My boss also has NO IDEA what I do all day. or how to fix the massive issues we have or even where to start. Here’s how I handle it.

      1. You need to set your own goals. Your boss has shown they won’t, so I would start with that. Decide what the most reasonable course of action is that you think you can complete. Meet with your boss and say, “Based on X, these are my priorities. I am going to approach Y first and then Z. Does that make sense to you?” If they tell you you must complete XYZ regardless, then you need to decide if this is a job you want.

      2. Document. Document. Document. Note every single document that is missing, when you discovered it was missing and based on the goals and priorities what might be done to fix it. Retroactive work is likely not going to work well, so start with current employees would be my suggestion.

      2.5 Email your boss after every meeting with a “this what we discussed, this is how I am going to proceed.” You want this in writing.

      3. Make a list of questions for a lawyer. Send this list to your boss and recommend they speak to one. You can not make them do this, you are covering your own behind here. Don’t worry if they don’t, this about self protection.

      4. Figure out what you need to succeed and ask for it. First verbally, than in writing. “If I continue to cover the phone, I can’t get through the back files. Can we get a portable phone? Or is the phone more important than the back files?” If they say it’s all critical, then again- you need to decide if this is a job you can reasonably do.

      Lastly, if you do not have full and robust support from your boss then succeeding at this sort of thing is very challenging. So, I would be… wary because anywhere that has had total staff turn over suggests there’s something else going on. Keep your eyes and options open. Remember: You are not failing, if the job can not be succeeded at. Good Luck!

    2. Neosmom*

      Rachel – It is my understanding that I9s should be stored separate from personnel folders. We keep ours in binders in a locked cabinet to which only HR has the key.

  70. Definitely Anonymous*

    I recently heard that my boss has been asking female staff members for hugs, which kind of made them uncomfortable. Not ok, obviously, but the way this information came to me made it a bit problematic: 1) I was told this in confidence, 2) I heard about it second hand, the person who told me did not witness it herself 3) I don’t even know which staff member I was the original source, though I can make a pretty good guess, 4) I was told that the staff member on the receiving end said she would deny it if asked, 5) Small organization, so there’s no HR department and no one above my boss other than our board.

    I actually considered sending this to Alison as a question, but upon reflection I’ve read enough AAM to know what she would say: despite all the caveats this sort of thing is too serious for me not to do something. I ended up going to the outside attorney we have on call. She indicated she would point out the inappropriateness of this kind of behavior to my boss.

    2. Observer*

      Thanks for speaking up.

      Also, now that you have been alerted to this, keep your eyes open for other stuff. If you actually see something problematic or hear of more stuff, you can bring that to the Board.

  71. Jessie*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m not sure if this belongs on the work thread, or the non-work thread. But it’s about a problem I have with someone I hired, so I think it’s work related!
    So, here’s the issue. My son has Asperger/developmental delays. We were very lucky to get him accepted in a private school last year. Schools here are very competitive and honestly it was a miracle to get him in. Because of his problems, we have several therapists working with him. But last year, we decided to also hire a tutor who specializes in special needs to help him with his academic work. We live in a country that doesn’t have much support for children with special needs and those that are available have become very business oriented and commercial. They know the parents are desperate and they try to squeeze you for as much money as possible. So, finding him a tutor wasn’t easy. However, we got lucky and found someone. Honestly, she is a gem. She’s very good technically. She has really good resources. My son loves her and she loves him. You can tell that she genuinely cares and it’s not just about the money.
    We agreed that she would give him two sessions in the morning on the weekends. The problem is, she cancels A LOT. At least one or both sessions are canceled every week. Before the pandemic, she used to come and give him the sessions here in our home. But I would wake up early in the morning to find a text from her canceling the sessions. There were different excuses ie. she’s sick, her mom is sick and she needs to take care of her, she tripped on her dog and bruised her face (she sent me a photo). In the end, he was barely getting any sessions.
    When the pandemic happened, we moved the sessions online and the same thing continued. Lots and lots of cancelations. When school ended, I decided to discontinue the sessions and just let my son have a proper summer.
    Three weeks ago, school resumed and I called her and we agreed to resume the sessions again. We were supposed to start our first session this weekend. I confirmed it mid week. But then she called yesterday to say that she is going away “for the first time since the pandemic” started and cancelled the session.
    Last year, my son was in pre-school. This year it’s his first “real school,” and I can’t stress enough how much he needs academic support. At the end of the last year, he was in the weakest academic group in all subjects.
    So, I would like some advice on how I can deal with this tutor? How can I tell her nicely and politely that she is really flakey? I don’t want to be rude and I don’t want her to think that I’m implying she’s lying. Sometimes when she cancels, she calls and you can totally tell from her voice that she IS sick. I get it. Her day job is in a pre school and children/schools are germ factories and it’s normal to get sick a lot
    Every time she canceled, I didn’t say anything. But I would really like to let her know that it’s a problem and I need to make sure that my son has proper academic support. I also need to make sure that I don’t lose her, because as I said, it’s very hard to find someone good where we live. So, how can I frame this in a nice way? Help?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      This isn’t about her being flaky, because you can’t change someone else’s behavior. She’s going to be flaking. That’s her. You know this. You’ve been dealing with her for long enough to know that.

      If I was you, I would ask myself this question- What would I do if she can’t commit to being more regular? What if this is just how things are? What compromises would you be willing to make? Decide your minimum commitment you need from her before going into the conversation. Then ask for that.

      I would look at some of Alison’s language for attendance issues that’s she’s posted. I might start with something like, “When X happens, it causes issues for us because of Y and Z. I need W. Can you commit to that?”

      And then be okay with the possibility the answer is No. And know what you’ll do if it is.

      Also, be prepared for her to say, “Oh yeah, I can totally do W” and then have her end up flaking and be prepared for what you will do when that happens. In my experience with flaky employees, it usually does.

    2. Generic Name*

      For starters, I’d not worry about being “nice” to her. You can be respectful and polite but you don’t have to make her feel good about you having a problem with her canceling all the time. You can totally say that canceling frequently is a problem and ask if she’d still like the job knowing that canceling often is a problem. If she says yes then you move forward. Next time she cancels (I practically guarantee she’ll do it within a month) I’d part ways. You’ve given her chances. The conversation is totally an ultimatum. Or, if you don’t want to fire her, accept this is the condition of keeping her on.

    3. PollyQ*

      Here’s the problem: unless you’re willing to let her go, then you don’t have much leverage over her behavior. You can try the old “It’s very difficult for my son, and his education is being impacted” argument, but ultimately, as an employer in this position, the only real “stick” you have is to tell her if she doesn’t greatly improve, you’ll let her go.

    4. KoiFeeder*

      I’m autistic myself, and if I had been in this situation at that age it would have been better for me to have a flakey tutor who I got along with instead of a reliable tutor who I didn’t get along with assuming both were equally competent. That being said, my problem was never with being able to understand the material. but either that the teachers weren’t teaching in a way that worked for me or bog-standard self-motivation problems.

      1. Jessie*

        That’s why I like her. She deals with children who have different learning difficulties and she understands that not everybody learns the same way. She picked up immediately that my son was a visual learner and started using techniques to help him. It’s hard to find someone well trained here. We had one before her, who had no clue what she was doing. That’s why I’m keen to keep her. But she can’t keep disappearing like that!

        2. allathian*

          What kind of contract do you have with her? Can you apply any penalties or withdraw payment if she doesn’t show up?

  72. pbj*

    I’m working on a new team that has a new manager. It’s his first time in a management position and he’s engaging in some practices that I think are questionable. For reference we are an IT team. He started daily meetings right in the morning where we go around and list the things we did yesterday and what we plan to do today. I do not think this is a good use of time and I don’t know what purpose it serves. He assigned us an eBook about time management to read on our own time and then questioned us on it to make sure we read it. We have weekly meetings where we discuss wins/losses of the week. He forces everyone in the circle to give an answer and if a person doesn’t have anything to contribute he makes everyone wait until they do.

    I’m annoyed and dreading what he comes up with next. In our weekly 1on1’s he often asks me if he’s doing a good job and if “X” practice is going well. I do not trust him enough to give candid feedback. I previously suggested that we stop doing the morning meetups or at least restructure it to be more about problem-solving but no changes were made. I do not think he’s a toxic person I just think he wants to be a “good” manager. Does anyone have any suggestions or scripts I can use to deal with this situation?

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      He started daily meetings right in the morning where we go around and list the things we did yesterday and what we plan to do today. I do not think this is a good use of time and I don’t know what purpose it serves.

      This comes from Agile, which is trendy but IME deeply flawed. It’s called Scrum and the meeting is usually mandated by a Scrumbag. I’m hoping it will flavor-of-the-month out soon.

      He assigned us an eBook about time management to read on our own time and then questioned us on it to make sure we read it.

      If he wants it read, shouldn’t it be read on Company Time?

      Does anyone have any suggestions or scripts I can use to deal with this situation?

      You’re going to run into these things in a lot of places. It helps to document what you do as the day progresses. “Making progress towards XYZ” where XYZ is some big, distant, acceptable goal (“One day closer to a pine box” rarely goes over well). Mentally distance yourself from the mundanity if you can.

      1. AP.*

        I’m not sure if it’s fair to call Agile “trendy” as it’s been around for quite a while now. I think it’s often implemented quite badly and without sufficient training or resources.

        But whatever the shortcomings of Agile are, I don’t have a problem with holding a daily standup, as long as it’s kept short. It may not be necessary for every team, but it can good way for people to connect and understand what everyone else is working on.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          I don’t have a problem with holding a daily standup, as long as it’s kept short.

          I don’t either, but I’d be lying to claim the ones I’ve been involved in are productive.

          1. AP.*

            I’ve seen it done well, when you have a small-ish team that are all invested in the project and have enough experience and ability to be able to contribute and help each other out.

            But yeah, I’ve also seen it done badly. The back-end developer describes her database bug, while the UI designer stares into space because he wouldn’t know SQL from Excel.

            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              “Scrumbag” was a joke, just in case anyone thought that was serious.

              “Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander” is the approach I’ve seen applied to Scrums, so you literally end up with an entire department, all of whom work on individual projects separately, gathering on one conference call. One person doesn’t get the ideally fully, and next thing you know you’re spending 75+ minutes per day just recapping the previous day in the most boring way you can imagine.

              1. Generic Name*

                Lol, I caught it. My ex was briefly “scrum master” and he was so proud of that title, so I giggled at the thought of him being a “scrumbag”.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  I’m sure we’d get along like oil and water, as I use “Agile” and “Wrong” interchangeably.

                  That’s how Agile has always been explained to me. “We can’t do it right, so just do it wrong faster.”

              2. The New Wanderer*

                I’m glad I hadn’t heard that previously because it made me laugh and probably would have gotten me in trouble with my Agile-devoted former manager!

    2. AP.*

      To be honest, much of what you describe doesn’t sound too egregious to me.

      Many IT teams have a morning check in where progress and daily goals are discussed. Ideally it’s a short meeting, 15 minutes or less, and it’s often called a stand-up (as in everyone stands during the meeting to discourage it from dragging on too long).

      As for the wins/losses, that sounds like what is often called a “lessons learned” meeting. I don’t know if it needs to be done every week, but capturing what went right and wrong is a staple of good project management as it helps people from avoiding similar pitfalls in the future.

      Neither do I think it is wrong for a manager to assign a relevant book to read. The one thing I would question is making people read the book on their own time. But it depends what is meant by “their own time” as well as the general organizational culture.

    3. Brownie*

      I’d start asking him what his vision for the team is and what some of the problems he’s trying to solve with the changes are. It’s possible he was told coming into the position that he needs to make changes or meet performance goals by higher management which no one lower down has been informed of. It sounds overall like maybe there were complaints or comments made by higher-ups about other/previous teams regarding time management or speed of task resolution which he’s been informed of and I could see those easily leading to the time management book along with a partial Scrum/Agile implementation (the daily standup meetings) that he’s now doing. Ask him what his vision of a “good” manager is as well, it’s likely that he has a different idea than your previous managers did. That should help you figure out where he’s coming from so you can tailor your feedback without going over into too-candid territory. Throughout all of this it’s vitally important to maintain a lightly curious and helpful tone though as it is questioning his manager abilities/decisions and any kind of tone that could be taken as stand-offish or hostile will more than likely make him stop asking for feedback and input on how to be the good manager you want.

    4. Emilitron*

      Outside of the “Agile” context, I’ve been finding morning tagups useful, but we’re not going around listing things we’re doing, we’re updating on status of our contributions to group tasks. “On task X, I’m about halfway done with my part, on track to pass that off to Joe tomorrow” “Jane, I’m going to call you after the meeting this afternoon to get Y from you.” What makes it work well is that a “nothing from me” is a perfectly reasonable update – the idea of pausing a meeting while somebody thinks of something to say would drive me bonkers!

  73. PersistentCat*

    Hey, lovely people!
    Q: Can my soon to be former employer legally require I pay back the difference between the amount of the FSA contributions I’ve made and the amount I’ve used ($600 more than I have put in?) If they can’t, how should I push back on this?
    Context: They furloughed me for 9 weeks in July and August. The company opted to subsidize COBRA and continued to pay the employer portion of our medical premiums. I was not given the opportunity to enroll in FSA COBRA. I returned to the company after labor day to prepare my area for my transition out of the company permanently. HR asked me to repay the difference on my FSA, for which no new charges have occurred since June.
    I would understand taking out my previous contribution amount per pay period (aka the $50 or so per check), but honestly, because I didn’t sign up for FSA COBRA, wouldn’t I need to wait the 60 days to requalify? Also, they will not be cashing out my accrued PTO, which is a greater amount than I would “owe” my FSA account…(The PTO thing is legal in my state, as long as it’s applied consistently).

    Thanks for any insight you may have!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I was told that if I use my entire contribution in January and quit on February 1, the company would have no recourse. But that was many years ago and may not still be accurate. (Or may not have even been accurate at the time, I suppose.)

    2. Helen J*

      We had an employee who knew she was not staying the full year but since our FSA accounts are fully funded on January 1, she used all that was in the account. When she quit, the company just had to eat the loss.

      1. Alice*

        TBH I don’t have much sympathy for your company. I suspect that the amount that the company or plan manager gets because the employee doesn’t use it in time far outweighs the loss caused by this situation. CNBC says as much as $400 million annually!
        Good luck PersistentCat.

        1. Helen J*

          Actually the way our FSA works it you have until March 15th of the next calendar year to use it and if you don’t, the government gets it. The company didn’t really care.

  74. BottleBlonde*

    I really wish I wasn’t asking this question but – what is an appropriate amount of time to take off when a parent dies? My dad is quite ill in critical care right now and we’re just not sure what will happen. I am 25 and live with my parents, and haven’t been through anything life-changing like this before.

    My company gives 2 days of bereavement leave for a parent or sibling. I understand that bereavement leave is more for making funeral arrangements and things than for actual grieving. If I have enough PTO to take a full week, or a week and a couple of days, is that appropriate? It’s all been quite sudden and I just imagine that I’ll want to take as much time off to look after my mom as I can, and to grieve myself.

    1. HelloHi*

      I think that it is up to a person how they use PTO. PTO does not have to be vacation. I think that as long as your company lets you use it on such short notice, then you should use it.

    2. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

      take what you need. any reasonable person would not judge you.

      and i’m sorry for what you’re going through.

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      Absolutely. The bereavement leave is not intended to be the maximum amount of time you take off – it’s meant to be *in addition to* your vacation time and whatever other PTO. I think most people would assume you would need at least a week for the death of a parent, and more if you possibly can.

      Sending peaceful vibes to you and your family.

    4. Kiki*

      I think a week is very fair and anyone who would judge you for that is a jerk. I’m so sorry you’re going through this right now. Sending my best wishes through the web <3

      1. Kiki*

        Depending on your company and how much PTO you have, some places I’ve worked would let people take unpaid time off if their available PTO and bereavement leave wasn’t enough to cover how much time they needed. So if you feel like you’d need a couple weeks before you could return to work, but don’t have two weeks of PTO left, I’d ask about that. The answer will depend on your company culture and your relationship with your boss, but I think reasonable people would understand and not judge you for asking, even if their answer is no.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Talk to your manager. I would actually talk to your manager now; your dad is critically ill and that’s a big enough reason to need a day off. If you’re obviously distracted or not as responsive as usually, that’s a good jumping off point.

      But definitely have the discussion. Some companies are very rigid about bereavement leave and would require you to use PTO for additional days. Some companies have the bereavement guidelines as a matter of policy and don’t really hold to them and would just tell you to take what you need and don’t bother about tracking it. Some places leave it up to your manager, and some managers are more sympathetic than others.

      Take whatever time you need, or expect to take that time, and ask your manager how to handle it in terms of PTO.

    6. Virtual Hugs Available if Helpful*

      So sorry you and your family are going through this.

      It should be absolutely fine to take a week and a couple of days. Of course this will vary depending on how reasonable your boss is, but unless they are absolutely unreasonable people, it should be fine. When my mom died my boss was surprised I took “only” three weeks off! Also, I know you did not ask this but you said you are young and have not experienced this before, so I hope it’s ok to say – grieving can come and go, don’t be surprised if you don’t feel better after a week, or you do feel better but then a month later the feelings re-emerge, etc. It’s not a linear process, necessarily. Please be as kind to yourself as you can during this hard time. Sending very warm and empathetic thoughts your way.

      1. Stishovite*

        I’d like to emphasize what Virtual Hugs said. People grieve in many different ways, and for different lengths of time.

        It can be very difficult to determine what is “socially acceptable” if you are the type of person who worries about that. My dad died 5 years ago, and I still wonder if I should call my sister on that date.

        Do what feels right. Do what you need to do to remain healthy and functional, or take the time to be non-functional if needed.

        And dealing with Death right now is going to be different, even if your father’s condition has nothing to do with Covid. All of us are under extreme stress.

        I wish you the best.

    9. Alice*

      I’m sorry for this loss that you are facing.
      You may want to think about keeping some PTO back to take off, I don’t know, second and fourth Fridays or something for a while — so that you can handle paperwork things as they come up, or just spend quality time with the rest of your family through the fall.

    10. ...*

      I think a full week is totally fine and it wouldn’t be out of line to take two, especially since you are younger and live with them.

    11. PollyQ*

      I hope things work out better for your dad than you fear, but yes, take the days you need. There’s nothing inappropriate about using personal time for a personal matter like this.

    12. Anono-me*

      I’m sorry that your family is going through this. One to two weeks is a pretty common amount of leave for a parent. (Assuming reasonable salary and benefits. )

      Two thoughts.

      If you haven’t already, you may want to check into FMLA eligibility, as it may allow you to spend more time with your father and mother now.

      Grief is not always predictable. If you find being at work to be comforting or if your grief doesn’t match up with what you expect it to be; that’s okay. Just do the best you can to take care of yourself and your loved ones please.

  75. HelloHi*

    I have this hypothetical job dilemma. I graduated this past May with my MS. I’m in my mid/late 20s and I haven’t been able to find a job since graduation (while at school I worked at the university as graduate assistant but that came to an end). So I have been unemployed for 5 months, living at my friend’s house and running out of savings. Things started to get better recently and I’ve started to get invites to interviews. At this point, I am ready to take any job that pays the bills. How bad would it be to accept an ok job (entry-level, low pay, some befits), knowing that I would quit it as soon as a better job comes along (even if it’s two weeks later). I know that accepting a job isn’t good if I don’t plan to stay there, but I am desperate. And I don’t even know if any of the other good jobs will pan out. Some of those other good companies also take their time in the interview process and I do not have that time to be unemployed. But at the same time, I don’t want to be stuck in an ok job only because I took it out of desperation. I think that keeping an ok job and saying no to a good one would hurt me in the long run. And for those who will say “think if it will hurt your reputation,” the ok job and the company are not something I would even consider if I wasn’t desperate.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I interned and worked retail when I finished my MA. I also temped a bit. It took me 8 months to find a job in my field. What I did was pretty normal, actually, taking a high-turnover job. I also worked retail when I left a job with nothing lined up; I usually say I was unemployed for four months, but that’s not quite accurate since I worked retail for two of those. In your position, I would lean more towards temping and short-term contracts if you can.

    2. Kiki*

      I think it really depends on whether or not you’re okay risking that you burnt a bridge with whatever company you accept the job with. I think companies do understand, but don’t love the situation they are put in. It happens, companies move on.

      I’d also keep in mind that once you have an offer, you can tell that to a company whose hiring process is taking a while. This has happened to both my sister and me in the last few years and in both cases, the companies were willing to expedite the interview process and we were able to get a second offer before we had to accept or reject the first offer.

  76. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    i posted about a month back about my job being…not great. bosses “forgot” to give me a promotion early this year (before Covid) even though i’d been doing extra work for over a year, being moved to a different supervisor who isn’t relevant to what i do who is constantly looking for the “wrong” things i do (such as imaginary tardiness), etc. but i still somehow got a great performance review, they said that i’m a “great employee who does her job well” (despite our earlier chat where they labeled me a liar who doesn’t do their job)….

    it has not gotten better. i was having a conversation with a coworker and i said something along the lines of “you know we’re living in the upside-down when people who ended up losing their jobs to covid were making more money than when they worked full-time. but i’d still personally take the job security in this crazy job market over the temporary favor to the bank account, though.”

    well, somehow my supervisor got wind of this but twisted it into claiming i said that i don’t care about my job and want to get fired. we had a meeting where they called me on it and i clarified my statement but still they kept it as they had it on a document and forwarded it to their boss and our CEO complaining about my unacceptable attitude. i also mentioned a minor hiccup that i am having with helping another department (and outlined the steps i took to address it and let them know it’s taken care of), but they also included it in the forwarded document where it says i “don’t want to help ___ department.” i’m just sick of them always twisting what i’m doing and saying to just find the worst about me.

    i also mentioned that with covid, my job has been completely derailed, that i end up getting feedback that says one thing, then they turn around and do something else. it’s stressful enough just dealing with the pandemic in a medical facility where i am the only person in my entire department who is required to be here everyday. i’ve lost (non-local) family members to covid and i have a few who are hospitalized, so i’m just stressed out and anxious all the time. there’s days where i’m so anxious and depressed that i can’t eat a single bite of food. needless to say, they were like “don’t bring your anxieties to work, that’s unprofessional.” that’s easy to say when you can work from home 4/5 days of the week…

    so i’m in an awkward spot of being a star employee and a valuable asset to everyone who work adjacent to me, but hated by all my relevant authorities.

    1. Observer*

      In the meantime, keep documenting what’s ACTUALLY happening, respond with dry facts any time he sends something inaccurate about you to higher ups, and START LOOKING FOR A NEW JOB.

      It may take a while, but people DO get hired.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        i am documenting and i’m looking, luckily.

        not to say that i haven’t made mistakes, because i have and i own up to them 100%, but this is a place that swept obvious and continuous sexual harassment (not mine) under the rug because they like the abuser, yet i’m getting crap for clocking in at 7:58 when my start time is 8:00 (supposedly tardy) or that the break room was out of half & half and i wasn’t able to stock it because i was doing ten other things.

  77. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

    I’m approaching the end of my rope with my field. I’ve interviewed for several jobs and made it to the second round in a few, but haven’t gotten any. Part of the issue is location; I’m confined to remote positions because I don’t live in an area where these jobs are located, and part of it is experience: I have a lot of it, but at the point where I am in my career I should have had more managerial, budgetary oversight, etc than I do. And looking back at jobs I’ve turned down in order to stay in this field I would have gained all that and more had I taken them, so I’m also kicking myself for not being willing to move past my ideological commitment to the work. Ugh. I’m just really feeling down today after another “moving on to other candidates” email.

    1. Colette*

      It’s hard to stay in a field if you’re not where the jobs are, and I assume moving isn’t an option for you. There’s a lot of valuable work out there; maybe it’s time to explore other options in conjunction to trying to get a job in your field.

  78. jack*

    hey everyone don’t worry. i just found out from our Safety Coordinator at work that COVID isn’t safety related. we were all just freaking out for nothing.

    3. The Transient Hamster*

      Haha! This reminds me of the conference call with our corporate office in early July when they said, “Now that Covid is over…” We work in the medical field. We had Covid-positive patients at that time. And an outbreak among the staff. But sure, in your corporate tower it appears the pandemic is operating on a different timeline. Lucky you! I wasn’t sure whether to laugh or beat my head soundly against the desk.

  79. Cruciatus*

    Short version, am I “allowed” to tell a coworker I am frustrated with them? Or do you have to let it go?

    I only go in to work on certain days, and the part-time people have been trained in my duties to keep things moving. They were told to only focus on A and B for now. Coworker 1 did X and Y which were things I was doing on my days in. I wrote an email last week saying, hey, just do A and B for now, but we’ll likely revisit this later. They apologized for “the inconvenience”. So on Monday they did X and Y. Again. I wrote to our supervisor since she had been in on Monday, and maybe she asked them to do this. She wrote back to them that they were not to be doing X and Y now. Coworker 1 wrote back that they had “foolishly assumed” they could do it for . They had a good point, but not the full picture, and I had told them to NOT do it and they did it anyway. This is what bothers me the most. They could have asked me or our supervisor about it. But they didn’t. They actually do a good job and life isn’t ruined but I am absolutely furious that this person completely disregarded me (then played the passive aggressive “I foolishly assumed I could because of . I will NOT do that again.” (Ugh.) I will have to see them on Monday and I’m really dreading it. I have a feeling the issue is over on our supervisor’s end, though I told her what bothered me, and in the end the part-timers were given more freedom to do X and Y but only if certain conditions are met. I’m not going to ask my supervisor more about this, but do I get to tell my coworker I’m frustrated with them? This is not the first time they’ve done something like this but I may be at BEC mode with them. I actually asked a coworker I trust if I should say something to supervisor in the first place since this individual just bothers me. He said he believed it was worth saying something to her, but not to expect much. So is saying something to him out of line and I just have to suck it up? Or are there times it’s OK to say “WTF, dude?” (obviously not exactly that?)

    1. Cruciatus*

      OK, I didn’t realize I shouldn’t use brackets. Both times I quote them, it should say “I foolishly assumed I could because of {reason they mentioned}”.

      1. valentine*

        Don’t tell them you’re frustrated. That’s yours to manage. Your manager has undermined both of you by allowing them to do X and Y, so I’m not sure you should say anything. Are X and Y fun? Why can these people not follow simple instructions? The only place I think you can look into is whether your language was direct enough. In future, leave out any talk of revisiting or anything like, “You don’t have to/There’s no need to…” that they may (willfully?) misinterpret as doing you a favor or going above and beyond.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If it’s not too late to email in response to “I foolishly assumed…” then I would say “So, going forward, please stick to what we agreed to.” It sounds to me like they might possibly be fishing for “it’s okay, that was a fair assumption, blah blah blah,” and I’d refuse to give it to them. But I wouldn’t come out and say “that was stupid and I’m annoyed with you” (and I know you’d say it in nicer terms).

    3. Colette*

      I don’t think you can say more than you already did. It doesn’t matter if you like them; you don’t have to like everyone you work with. And you’ve pointed out the work problem to them and then, when that didn’t work, to your supervisor. There’s nothing more to do here.

  80. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I feel like I can’t take a day off! This is my day off due to working on a Saturday and already there’s an emergency!

  81. anonanna*

    So my company has said they’ll supply office supplies we need to WFH since it’s turning into a much-longer committment than they thought- has anyone’s office offered something similar and how did you take them up on it? I don’t have a home office (i pull a chair up to my bedside and use my bed as a desk) and i’d really like something to help minimize the neck strain/give me an actual work area, but i’m not sure what to ask for and how to not sound demanding or greedy!

    1. Colette*

      My office gave us computer equipment/chairs from the office (whatever we asked for), as well as sticky notes, notepads, pens, etc. (It took a while – I went in last Monday to get my computer equipment!) I think chairs, electronics, and consumable supplies are fine.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Ask them! “What types of supplies are covered?” You can add, “Are we talking pens and binder clips, or would I be able to get a small desk and an external monitor?” but I would start with a more general question. Just remember that anything they supply will be their property, so if you want to get a desk that works with your decor, you will have to buy it yourself.

  82. Contractor woes in state government*

    I work for a small department within a state department of health completing llama annual paperwork.  We have recently been assigned a project where we need to review an additional 3k llama’s paperwork by November 1 in addition to our already hefty work load.  I am now also in charge of training another colleague (a peer) to conduct llama annual paperwork.  This process is incredibly tedious and specific.  For instance, on a good day (so assuming no fires to put out, no webinars, etc) I can review the paperwork for 15 llamas.  Training this colleague has been incredibly time consuming and our pay has not changed.  My job description states it is a non supervisory role.

    I am a contractor, not a state employee.  I have worked at the llama department for about a year and a half.  When I started it had been indicated that I would be able to transition to a state employee in about a year.  There have been no updates on this, and there is a hiring freeze.  A job in another department has opened up where I’d be wrangling llamas and have some of (but not all) of the skills necessary to wrangle llamas.  I am confident I could learn the role of wrangler.  

    Here’s the hard part: I love working with llama annual paperwork.  I am good at it and love my team.  I also do feel bad if I end up transitioning out of this role in the midst of a giant project.  Part of my wants to think that myself and another colleague who is also a contractor will be recognized and converted to being a state employee.  However, I know this is overly optimistic.  I really NEED to have better benefits for health reasons.  I would absolutely stay doing llama paperwork if I was converted to being a state employee.  I also think I deserve a raise with the additional responsibilities of training.  It took me about nine months to feel like I really “got” the role.  I’ve spent around five hours of one on one training (in 10 days) as well as multiple group training?

    I know that if I apply for the wrangler position there is no guarantee I will get it, but my mentor has encouraged me to apply.  Does it make sense for me to attempt to advocate for myself to become a state employee?  I know times are also really hard right now, and I need to put on my own oxygen mask first right now.

    1. CatCat*

      Why not ask for an update on transitioning to a state employee role doing llama paperwork? “When I started this position, it was supposed to have the possibility of transitioning to a state employee role. Is that still a possibility in light of the general hiring freeze?” And if it is a possibility, “What would the process and timeline for that look like?” (I know you said there is a hiring freeze, but there can be exceptions to a freeze that you’re not in a position to know.)

      In the mean time, I would definitely apply for the wrangler position. Applying doesn’t obligate you to accept it. Also, not sure where it’s like where you are, but where I am, if you want to be a state employee, just “get in the system” wherever you can and then move around from there (much harder to get into the civil service system than it is to move around once you’re in it).

    2. Anono-me*

      I think if I were in your shoes I would take a two part approach as neith one is guaranteed.

      1. Ask about what it would take to get a raise and the possibility of permanent state employment doing annual llama documentation.

      2. Go for the llama wrangler permanent state employment. Take it, if offered. (People remember things, even when they aren’t supposed to.) Once you are a permanent state employee, if you want to, you can start trying to transfer back to annual llama documentation after about a year (obviously don’t tell anyone that you are planning this.)

      I think the sooner you get in the state system the better. In addition to the obvious salary increase and health insurance benefits; the sooner you are a state employee, the sooner your time starts counting for retirement (eligibility and computation) and earning vacation time. Also, many government employers are changing their benefits plans for new employees, usually not for the better.

      Good luck.

  83. Jessie*

    Hi everyone,

    So, my son has Asperger/developmental disorder. Schools where we live are very competitive and it was a miracle to get him accepted in a really good private school last year.
    He gets a lot of different kind of therapies. But when he got accepted in school, we decided to hire him a tutor to help him with his academic work at home. This wasn’t easy, because we live in a country that doesn’t have good support for children with special needs. Plus those that are available are very commercial and just try to squeeze you for as much money as possible.
    However, we got lucky and found a really good tutor. She is a gem. She’s good technically and has really good resources and also loves my son a lot. You can tell that with her, it’s not all about the money and she really cares.
    Before the pandemic, we had agreed that she would give him two sessions a week on the weekends and she would come over and work with him in our place. The problem is: she canceled ALL THE TIME. I would wake up early in the morning to find a message from her canceling the session. There were different excuses. ie. she’s sick, her mom is sick, she tripped over her dog and bruised her face (she sent me a photo.)
    I never really said anything when she canceled. Then the pandemic happened and we moved the sessions online. But the cancelations continued. When school ended, I decided to stop the sessions for a while.
    Three weeks ago, school resumed and I called her and we decided to go back to two sessions per week online. This weekend she was supposed to give him his first session. But she canceled! Again! She said, that she was going away on a trip, “for the first time since the pandemic started.” Ufff.
    I just need advice on how to handle this? How can I tell her nicely and politely that she is flakey? I need to do this in a nice way that gets the message across but also, I need to make sure that I don’t lose her because we really really need her. Last year, my son was in pre-school and by the end of the year, he was in the weakest group in all subject. I can’t stress enough, how much we need her and how much he needs academic support. I can’t lose her, but the cancelations need to stop! Any advice on how to phrase this?

    1. Contractor woes in state government*

      Hello! Coming from the USA and someone who works with adults with devlopmental disabilities.

      Is this a formal arrangement (like through an agency) or informal (like you pay her cash)?

      I’d try to frame it that your son needs consistency in order to thrive due to his diagnosis. Maybe saying something (in an email) really spelling out how it affects your son is affecting him and you. For example (and taking this with a grain of salt as I do not know your son) but “When tutoring is cancelled at the last minute, Son responds with (negative response.)” or “I alter my work schedule to be home when tutoring happens to I’m unable to bill my clients for a full day when a cancelaltion happens at the last minute”. I’d also try to get (in writing) a schedule and create a timeframe of when cancellations are acceptable/unacceptable. Another thing I do when I freelance is send a google calendar invite with ALL info (like address even though I have been to that address weekly for years, my contact phone number, etc) and make the client/family “accept” the calendar invite prior to booking.

      Hope that helps and good luck.

      1. Jessie*

        It’s informal. We pay her in cash. I tried to explain to her how much this is affecting us. The last time we talked, I told her that he did really badly last year and I’m very worried about how he will cope this year. She responded with, “I’m really worried too,” then went on to tell me that there will be no sessions this weekend because she is going away!

        1. valentine*

          You’re making her a priority while she’s treating you/r son like a backup plan. But you can’t expect formality when you’re behaving casually. Draw up a contract. (Pay her with something other than cash? And I hope you’re only paying her when she shows!) Sit her down and talk about what you need and what the dealbreakers are. Tell her you need a real commitment.

          Or accept a bare minimum and hire a second tutor. I think this is like childcare, though, where you need four minimum, especially when it’s not their main job and there are no consequences for canceling.

          Also, if you’re super nice and you’ve been saying it’s not a problem when it’s a rather serious one, stop that.

    2. Colette*

      “I really appreciate the work you’ve been doing, but I’m finding the frequent cancellations disruptive. Is there a time when you can be more consistently available?”

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t know what you can say. She clearly is not prioritizing her tutoring job over anything. If I had a commitment, I would not be available to go away on a trip despite the pandemic. She knew she had tutoring scheduled but when the opportunity came up she viewed tutoring your son as something that could be cancelled.

      Consequences: If you continue cancelling, we will be forced to hire someone else. But you have to be willing to enforce those consequences or it’s empty.

      I’m sorry to say: it doesn’t seem to be that she really cares for your son. She doesn’t seem to need money AT ALL or she wouldn’t keep flaking out. But if she cared so much she wouldn’t keep missing these all important sessions.

      1. Jessie*

        We’ve been dealing with a lot of therapists for the past three years and this tutor is definitely one of the nicer ones. She really does like him and he likes her a lot too. He actually asked about her today. But you are right. Most probably she doesn’t need the money that much, so she doesn’t care if she cancels.
        Besides tutoring, she works full time in a preschool. So, I guess when the weekend comes she’s exhausted. Also, children/schools are germ factories, so I understand why she falls ill a lot. But at the end of the day, my son needs support and she is not providing it.

    4. Granger Chase*

      I think at this point you’re well within your rights to start looking for a replacement. She might connect well with him and have helped him when she did actually show up, but if she regularly missed appointments, how much work have they actually done together?

      This is a client-provider relationship, and you’d be well within your rights to have a serious conversation with her along the lines of “Consistency and reliability is incredibly important when it comes to tutoring Child. Now that Child will be dealing with more schoolwork, it is more imperative than ever that we are able to keep the tutoring appointments that we book. During the last school year, X number of appointments were cancelled at the last minute, and X number of our rescheduled appointments were cancelled as well. If we are not able to maintain X% of our scheduled appointments for this school year, we will have to find a new tutor for Child.” This will serve as a heads up that you need her to take the job seriously and it might make her more reliable if she realizes this source of income might disappear completely. She is being really flippant about your time right now, and while some of the reasons you have for missing are valid, if you’re doing virtual appointments now I think at least a few of those cancellations could have been avoided.

      I know you said you had a difficult time finding her in the first place. Have you thought about checking universities that offer degrees in special education or early childhood development (or similar) to see if they have any students that offer tutoring? Or if they have any resources they could recommend to you?

    5. Dust Bunny*

      You don’t need to handle this with kid gloves. Tell her your son does better with consistency and you’ve decided to look for someone who can keep (most of) his or her appointments.

      She blew this job, not you. You don’t have to be rude but, good grief, you are well within your rights to be put off by this. And she needs to know she can lose jobs by being a froot loop.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Also, you don’t need her. You need a tutor, but you don’t need this tutor. How well she does with your son is irrelevant if she’s hardly ever there.

    6. ronda*

      since in some ways you really like her…. keep her, but it looks like you are going to need to give up on her changing.

      PLUS

      find another tutor(s) that is more reliable.

      I know in classes I have attended, different teachers have been able to teach me different things. Try it out and see if you can get multiple tutors to get your child the needed help.

      1. Jessie*

        Yes, I think this is the best solution. Keep her but find another one for extra sessions. I was just worried that if they are using different styles of teaching, he would get confused. But I guess, if it’s someone good, it wouldn’t be an issue.

  84. NervousCollegeKid*

    I’m a senior in college and will be graduating this December with a degree in Political Science. I’ve already gathered a list of 40+ organizations, advocacy groups, political communications/consulting firms that I’d be more than happy to work for. My question is when do I start applying? A lot of job postings I’ve seen don’t give any sort of timeline and I don’t want to apply too soon. I’d ask my professors for their advice but all of them are purely academics and haven’t worked in the political arena in decades, if ever. Also what piece of advice do you wish somebody had given you before you started your first job search! Any and all tips are appreciated!

    1. Box of Kittens*

      Start now! It might take longer than you’d think and you’re at the perfect point to begin applying since the hiring can take a few months.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Start now! It often take a couple of months (or longer) from job posting to hiring especially during the holiday season.

        It should be clear from your graduation date that you won’t be available until after graduation. Just be clear about that if a company is talking a need for a urgent hire, but if you’re applying for jobs in late September, you very likely won’t be hired until January anyway. I really think hiring slows down between Thanksgiving and the new year.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      This is an election year. Volunteer on a campaign. It will help you network and make contacts that will help you get a job.

      1. NervousCollegeKid*

        I’d love to be working on a campaign this cycle but due to financial circumstances I’ve had to take a paid intern position in a related field. I’ve already reached out to my network and coworkers from my past 5 internships but none of their offices/agencies are hiring at the moment.

    3. Spearmint*

      As others said, it will probably take longer than you think. You should mentally prepare yourself for the search to take 3-6 months to and have a plan for what you’ll do in the meantime (hobbies, professional development, volunteering, etc).

      Politics and advocacy are very networking-heavy fields, so use all your contacts from your internships to find opportunities and get career advice (if you haven’t had an internship, you’ll probably need one before getting a permanent position in those fields).

      Be open minded about where you apply. Don’t apply just anywhere, but if you find a job that would pay fairly and let you develop the skills you want in the long term, you should apply even if it’s for an organization or position you wouldn’t have imagined yourself in (as long as it’s consistent with your values and goals). My first full time job post-college is not exactly in a sub-field I imagined myself going into, but I do really like it and I’m developing valuable skills that I think will help me achieve my longer term career goals.

  86. cubone*

    How do you deal when your colleagues are hypocritical on a subject (eg. say they want to do something but actions are the opposite)? Would you ever call them out directly, or do you try to more gently steer them to be aware of the mismatch?

    Context: I’m trying to build more youth engagement opportunities in a youth-serving non-profit. Meaningful youth engagement practices should avoid tokenism by giving young people opportunities to have real decision making power/leadership opportunities (in a VERY short summary – YE is a broad area and it is always an ongoing learning process to ensure adult staff have the skills and comfort to do this work).

    I’m working on more skill-building trainings to help staff understand the value/impact, but what’s frustrating me isn’t a lack of buy-in: MANY of our staff will go on about the importance of youth being heard, being leaders in our work, being involved and espouse how awful tokenism is, etc. but when opportunities come up, in practice they want the absolute bare minimum, tokenistic engagement.
    As an example conversation:
    Staff person: “As our teapots are targeted for youth, it’s so important youth have a leadership role in the design process so they feel represented in our teapot offerings.”
    Me: “great – I was thinking we could put out a paid opportunity for youth teapot designers?”
    Staff person: “oh, we couldn’t just let them DESIGN our teapots. The design team will come up with their preferred 5 and then we can ask some young people for feedback in a survey”
    Me: “Can we follow up with the young people surveyed about what we did with their feedback/why we chose certain designs?”
    Staff person: “Yes, they’ll see the designs we chose on the website when we launch them!”

    Obviously there’s a ton of work here to be done (which I’m excited to do and working on!), but specifically I really want to know if there’s a way I can professional say “hey, that’s not youth leadership….. which is what you claimed you wanted to do”. Or just “ah – that’s pretty tokenistic!” or alternatively, “could you please stop going on about how important youth leadership is to you and then shut down ANY opportunities to actually practice it?”

    I recognize this might be specific to YE work but I figured others probably have had the experience of colleagues saying “oh its so important to me that we do X well” and then shutting down any opportunities to do X AT ALL. I need a sanity script to respond!

    1. Junior Dev*

      Maybe start by asking your coworkers what they mean by “youth led” and why that’s important to them without launching straight into trying to convince them. Then you’ll have an idea of what their goals and values are when it does come time to discuss specific programs.

      Minors have so little autonomy in our society that I’m not surprised your coworkers think this crumb of a concession to letting them make choices is somehow “youth led.”

      1. cubone*

        Thank you, such a good point. As soon as I posted, I realized this was in many ways just a vent to get off my chest and that the whole process of doing this work also includes getting people on board. Plus you’re right – it’s initially SO baffling to so many adults that this work is valuable (meanwhile I sort through applications of under 18s who’ve done incredible things on their own)

  87. HB*

    Quick question I’m really hoping someone here can help me with!

    When employers post job advertisements on Indeed and include a Salary range (such as $29 to $33 an hour), does that typically refer to base salary, or does it include the total compensation package (benefits, PTO, etc).

    3. fhgwhgads*

      For the most part I’d expect it to be base salary, but there probably exists some asshole outlier bad employer who means total compensation and would spring it on candidates last minute mistakenly believing it wouldn’t turn them off.
      But reasonable people mean base.

  88. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So, after doing my best to contain it, finally burnout affected my work. Luckily someone noticed and finished the task in question on time, but it left a sour taste. Thankfully my boss was understanding.
    I crossing the days to start my holidays.

  89. Bookartist*

    What are the business rules around the genteel Southern practice of using ‘sir’ and ‘ma’am’? I’m a native New Yorker who picked up a casual ‘sir / ma’am’ habit when working with southern ex-pats early in my career. Now I supervise a gentleman living in Charlotte, who uses ma’am with me all the time. I still use sir all the time also, but I don’t know the real rules! Do I say/do something differently because I’m the supervisor? Thanks!

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      As a genteel Southerner, I think you’re fine. We have supervisors at my office (also Southern though) who use the term with almost everyone, both above them and below them, unless they are super familiar with that person. And even then, they’ll still sometimes do it. In my opinion, it’s such a widely known thing, that I wouldn’t think anyone would really bat an eye about it. Also, I consider Charlotte to be part of the south, so it’s probably normal to them too. Maybe if you supervised a group of native New Yorkers, they might think it’s odd, but I really can’t say. I’ve used the term with people from all over the country and usually I get a joking comment “Oh…..you must be in the Southern US,” but no one has ever seemed offended.

      As for the “rules,” I don’t actually know them, other than when I was raised, that was the proper way to address anyone older than you or in a position of authority or assistance (teacher, lady at the water company, librarian, etc.) , regardless of age. I am almost 40 and I use it in most situations if I don’t know the person well.

      1. bookartist*

        Thank you so much. The New Yorkers and Californians have all replied with good humor – in these contexts it conveys “OK, people, let’s get it together” (useful for a Project Manager) or “I really respect what you’re doing here; thank you.” And as a 51-year-old white woman, I want to make sure there is no room for misinterpretation (i.e., I don’t want to sound sarcastic or anything) when used to address my direct report, an early-30-something Black man.

      2. Middle Manager*

        It can get a little tricky with folks who are non-binary or transgendered- a risk of misgendering someone. I lived in the south, so I get that it’s a deeply ingrained cultural custom, but just something to be mindful of.

        1. bookartist*

          Yes! I have started to only use it in more familiar conversations with folks I know to avoid misgendering anyone, but in this case, with someone who identifies as male and who calls me “ma’am” regularly, I do like to return the honorific. But that is a really great point, and I wonder what we will eventually choose to use as a neutral honorific.

    2. JanetM*

      My husband (who in addition to being southern worked in retail for 35 years) says “sir” and “ma’am” to everyone except small children.

    3. Not trying to be rude, just good at it*

      One of my business locations is in close proximity to a military base. I have many customers who are in the armed services and they always say, “Than you sir.”

      I smile back (although hard to see smiles in a mask) and replay, “That’s how you know you are getting old. Everybody calls you sir.”

      They always reply it’s a military thing and we laugh.

  90. Language Lover*

    Does anyone have any mask recommendations for people who have to talk?

    This is somewhat general, obviously, but I found it is highly related to work this week so I hope it’s okay.

    I don’t have to go into the office every day but when I did this week, I’ve found that I’ve had to talk more in a mask than I usually have to when I’m running to pick up food or gas. We have a big mask focus where I work and I want to model proper mask wearing….i.e. having my mouth and nose covered. But when I talk, the mask rides down.

    I look at envy at some of the people on TV wearing their masks that only move with their mouths. I do have masks with nose wires but they don’t seem to help that much…or at least not the brand I have.

    1. Box of Kittens*

      I bought a pack of five from Athleta and they are fantastic for that. They have the nose wire and also have little slider things where you can tighten the ear loops if you need to, plus the ear loops are really good elastic. They’re the most comfortable ones I have, too. The price may have changed but those were $30 for 5 when I bought them. Another thought is to add tighteners/tie knots to ear loops on masks you already have because I think that makes a big difference with them not sliding.

      1. Language Lover*

        Thanks. The two I have with nose wires also have the tightening thing behind the loops.

        I might have to try ties even though I fear I’d be terrible at tying things behind my head.

        1. Lyudie*

          I’m sure there are others, but I have a pleated Vera Bradley mask with loops around the back of the head that don’t tie (it’s stretchy and there’s a bead to tighten it). Maybe also look into those ear savers/headbands with buttons to hook the ear loops onto? I’ve been using a long piece of ribbon to pull back the ear loops on some of mine but that does requiring tying behind your head.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            I convert my ear loop masks to behind-the-head masks by just permanently tying a bit of ribbon to both ear loops. The ear loops are still stretchy enough to let me pull the mask over my head; no tying required.

          2. Language Lover*

            Ooh loops around the back. I like the idea of that.

            My issue isn’t with pain around the ears so I never though I’d need the ear savers but I may need to consider it.

      2. Neosmom*

        I have fabric masks that I hand sewed. When I put one on for a few hours, I put a 1 inch piece of medical tape at the nose bridge. This keeps it up over my nose with no chance of falling down. Also, it minimizes my eyeglass fogging.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Honestly, it sounds like your mask is too loose. If tightening it doesn’t help, or if you can’t tolerate it any tighter, you might try one with straps that go around the back of your head instead of ear loops. You can even add a bit of elastic or ribbon to connect the ear loops and convert an existing mask. You might also need a larger size. Target has some really nice (and CHEAP) masks that come in L/XL sizes. They’re very comfortable and breatheable.

      1. Language Lover*

        Thank you.

        I do think I have one mask that fits pretty well; although I haven’t tried it with a lot of talking yet. But when I put on the other one I got from the same company, it felt much bigger for some reason.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Design and fit.

      I have a handmade one that have a nose piece. The part that covers my nose is significantly curved up (not a straight line across the top). It wraps under my chin and stays put nicely.

      I have other designs that fit well too and don’t shift much.

    4. JanetM*

      I got a handful of masks from Ties that Bynde Designs. They’re fitted to the face, rather than flat, and you can get them with ear elastics, around the head elastics, or cloth around-the-head ties. I got the ties version; if I order more, I may get the elastic as that’s quicker to put on and off; on the other hand, the ties don’t get caught in my hearing aids.

      My experience is that they do not ride down when talking or chewing gum. I did get the “Luxe” option: Single layer integrated filter and upgraded nose bridge (+ $2.00).

      She has all manner of fabrics, including plain solid colors. Be advised that the current “Premium” page has some NSFW fabrics.

      My understanding, from the friend who pointed me to TtB, is that she uses the profits from selling masks to make donated masks for health-care workers.

      https://jessicacrutchfield.square.site/shop/masks/2

    5. Dust Bunny*

      I have the Stark’s Vacuum ones, which have a panel over the nose. This seems to work better for me than a nose wire–I apparently have a weird nose.

    6. Lifelong student*

      I bought some mask brackets on line. They are silicone cone-like things that go under your mask but over the bottom of the bridge of thenose and over the mouth. They are sold basically to avoid having lipstick smears on the mask (although why anyone wearing a mask needs to wear lipstick is beyond me.) Anyhow, the do hold the mask away from your lips and are very comfortable. Make it easier to breathe as well.

    7. ...*

      The white fold-y KN95 masks are my favorite!!! Theyre somehow lighter and more breathable and they look a little geeky but the folded part gives you room to breathe and talk without getting your mask all wet.

    8. RagingADHD*

      I have made a bunch of different designs, and my favorite is a flat pleated mask that has the top pleat turned under and sewn into the sides. Some of them have the same thing on the bottom. When you open it up to wear, the pleat sort of origamis into a triangle over the shape of your nose. It fits the best and is most comfortable of all of them, to me. I’ll post a link to a YouTube video in the reply.

      I prefer back of the head to ear-loops. My favorite type of tie is a cross-section of an old pair of tights. They stretch plenty to go over my head so I can leave them tied, and have enough snap to hold firmly. And if they wear out in the wash, I can snip another one.

  91. Rainy*

    Mostly a vent, but I’m getting super tired of someone in another division who, every few months like clockwork, asks for something I cannot do. She uses different wording and is acting like she thinks it’s a different request, but it’s something really basic, like I am doing llama hoof care and she wants me to bag up the hoof trimmings and email them to her, and refuses to understand that the email system won’t move physical objects.

    I’m tired of having to tell her no repeatedly to requests that she should understand are A) the same thing she asked me for eight weeks ago and B) still not possible. And she does this thing where after multiple emails of me saying “that’s not possible”, she will “reveal” the real issue, something like “my boss is insisting that she needs these hoof trimmings” or “I’m just getting a lot of questions from llama farmers and my boss is putting pressure on me to build a hoof trimming museum and information centre” which, if I had the information earlier, would have at least helped me craft a response that isn’t “no”, but by denying me this info she’s not giving me a chance to figure out something that will work.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Ask her what she’s trying to accomplish. Tell her that as you understand her request, its not possible, but if you knew what she’s trying to do you’d be happy to consider if there’s something that might work.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This. “As we’ve discussed, it is impossible for me to email hoof trimmings to you. If you can tell me why you need this, we might be able to work out some other way for me to help you.”

      2. Rainy*

        A big part of the issue unfortunately is that her division is grotesquely chaotic AND a haven of “guess culture” where everyone just mooches around making passive-aggressive comments and what they think are significant glances waiting for the specific person they want a specific thing from to offer it up.

        So when I say “what can I do to help you with this, specifically” or “can you tell me what the goal is here” she acts like I’ve just thrown a live scorpion at her face. I’m not one of those “blunt honesty” assholes, but I’m not a mind-reader either!

        2. valentine*

          she acts like I’ve just thrown a live scorpion at her face
          Ask her to complete the sentence “It sure would be nice if…”

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Yes, this.

        We used to get calls every few months from an institution from whom we had borrowed some historical material (long story; archivists hate this). Lots of hinting–was the collection available? did we plan to reprocess it? were we doing any work with it? etc. They insisted they didn’t have any concerns, they were just asking.

        I finally told them I had to assume I was misunderstanding their questions and not giving them the information they needed, because they kept calling and asking vague questions even though they knew we didn’t own the collection and couldn’t do anything to it. What, exactly, was it they needed to know?

        I never did find out. They never called back and we finally told them to come get their stuff and store it on their own dime. But I should have called them on it earlier. It was ridiculous.

    2. annoyed for you*

      every time she asks, attach your original denial to your reply with the response, “see attached.”

      1. Rainy*

        God I wish.

        The latest one she presented as though it was a massive emergency involving a huge number of people requesting hoof trimmings, even though fall hoof-trimming hasn’t even started yet, and when I said “just forward all the emails requesting hoof trimmings and I will take care of it” I got ONE FREAKING EMAIL.

  92. katestrafalariaNOS*

    I’m in a unique situation at work where I have several months’ worth of high achievement (beyond the expectations which are already high) and a supervisor role just opened up. There’s no other route for advancement in my particular organization, so if I want to stay on the team and keep growing my responsibilities this is the next level. HOWEVER. My spouse and I want to start a family in the next year. I struggle with where I should focus my energy: my career or my family.

    Does anyone have advice or experience in these kinds of situations?

    1. Generic Name*

      Go for both when the time feels right for each, and reevaluate if necessary when something changes (you get pregnant or you get a promotion. What if you put family planning on hold for a promotion that never materializes? Or you let your career grind to a halt but can’t get pregnant/decide not to have kids after all. I won’t tell you that “you can have it all” but if you put one off for the other, you could end up with neither.

    2. Temperance*

      Throw your hat in the ring for the job. You can still TTC while working on your career.

      If you got pregnant tomorrow, you would likely be working through late July.

  93. Amethyst*

    Posted this in last week’s thread & didn’t get any answers so trying again. :)

    I’m considering going back to school to get either a Bachelors or Masters in one of the following fields:

    HR
    Finance (I have a long history of holding financial positions, including my current one which is in AP, & would possibly be interested in pursuing more AR/AP stuff in future, but dread working in Excel, LOL)
    Health Management (anything in here is interesting as I currently work for a major medical network in my state)

    What do you like/dislike about your field? What do you wish you had known about your chosen field before going into it? Is there anything you would specifically advise anyone looking into the above fields to consider if it’s right for them? Do you have a lot of interaction with people other than your coworkers/people who work for your company, or is your job more behind the scenes?

    1. BlueBelle*

      Do not get a degree in HR, or at least don’t get a master’s degree in HR. With a degree in HR you are qualified to be a generalist, you know just a bit about everything HR related, but you aren’t an expert in any area. If there is an area of HR you are interested in- get a degree in that. Be an expert, not a generalist.
      Compensation is a hot field in HR right now, as is talent and leadership development, and instructional design. I am in talent and leadership development and I love it. It is so wonderful to coach people and help them be successful. I also love that I get to write and design classes custom for exactly what my company needs are. My job is a lot of fun!
      I hope this helps and good luck! :)

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Don’t get any degree yet! You’re still in the exploratory stage, and that’s fine. I would do more of what you’re doing here in real life. Talk to friends of friends, see what you can learn. Once you get closer to figuring out which field and job you’re interested in, see if you could get into a job in it with your existing qualifications. If you can’t, then you may need a degree. Or, you might be able to make a move at a lower level, but you would need a degree to advance. I think people see school as a golden pathway, but relationships and experience are really the way to get where you want to go. (Unfortunately!)

      As an aside, I don’t know if finance is the right fit if you dread Excel, though. Plenty of work happens outside of Excel, but if you don’t love creating a good spreadsheet, maybe finance isn’t your natural fit. My background is engineering, but I love crunching data and make spreadsheets for things all the time.

      2. Amethyst*

        Thanks! The reason I’m considering finance (accounting, more specifically) is because of the above reason & I’d like to have a deeper understanding of the things I do/did. It’ll also provide a more expanded area of work, I think, than the degree I currently hold (AAS in medical billing & coding that I haven’t yet used for Reasons). Finding things that are missing & putting each piece of the puzzle together to form the whole is fun for me. Otherwise, tax season is my favorite time of year. I’ve done my own taxes for nearly 20 years & have helped a couple relatives & friends out with their own. So having that knowledge in my back pocket would definitely serve me now & much further down the line.

        Excel & I are alright as long as I don’t have to create. That’s where I have Words with it, lol. I do use spreadsheets but to a minimal degree; formulae are already programmed & I just have to input the data. I can tell when a formula isn’t working, but I have no idea how to fix it.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have (among other degrees) a bachelor degree in Health Information Management and a Masters of Public Administration. The HIM degree qualifies me to sit for the Registered Health Information Administrator exam (scheduled for Oct 1!), which is pretty much the gold standard for certifications in HIM. (A bachelor or masters of HIM will qualify to sit the RHIA, an associates/2 year degree qualifies to sit the RHITechnician exam which is one tier down.) I specifically didn’t do a masters in HIM because I wanted to keep my long-term options a little more open rather than narrowing the focus quite that hard.

      I’m low level management (I mostly manage data – I have some supervisory and training responsibilities for my team, but we report to the same manager and she has all the HR responsibilities) with a group of medical coders in the Revenue Management department in the largest hospital network in my state. I interface with lots of internal folks in other departments, but very very rarely with people outside of my org – at least not to any real depth, though I either send reports to, or request information from, them pretty much daily. I worked remotely pre-Covid, as did my entire team. Most of my further commentary about my job is specific to medical coding as a subset of HIM, and I don’t know if that’s an area of interest for you, but I can keep going if you want :)

      1. Amethyst*

        Yes, please! :) I was just asked if I was interested in getting into Revenue Cycle at my job & I am. It’ll utilize my degree (AAS in medical billing & coding) even though I’ve forgotten practically everything I learned as I got it 5 years ago. I’ve been reassured that it doesn’t matter if I’ve forgotten; this position is one where knowledge comes as I work & will be taught by someone who knows the ins & outs. I’m currently just posting payments to patients’ accounts, & they’re considering giving me Medicaid to work (claims & autoposting payments). There’s a lot of discussion that has to happen before I know if I’ve got the job, but I’d love to know more.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Right on :) it’s mostly a thinking style and learning the guidelines. You don’t need to memorize the codebooks by any stretch (though after a while it’ll feel like you have done ;) ) – the puzzle pieces are in the codebooks, coding training is more on how to put them together. We changed codesets entirely about this time five years ago, and the cutover was (generally) pretty easy because the concepts didn’t change. I got my first coding certification in 2008 :)

          I don’t do inpatient coding or profee coding (I could and have done both, but it’s been so long that I wouldn’t trust myself to do it properly without a refresher) – my team does ancillary coding (diagnoses for ancillary services like labs, radiology etc) and I also do most of the interfacing with our ED coding team, who are outside vendors, and work with clinics and our outpatient surgery clinics on preauthorizations for office procedures and outpatient surgeries. I’ve also worked with prebill edits, which is reviewing claims that got kicked out of the scrubber for needing modifiers, medical necessity dx or other potential errors reviewed.

          I’ll try to remember to check back – any particular questions?

          1. Amethyst*

            Okay. Yeah, the college I went to handled the transition badly; half of my books taught to 9, not 10, so it was an…interesting…experience. I didn’t get my certification upon completion of my degree; I just kept working & landed my current job.

            We mostly do office visits; there’s some hospital charges, but not a whole lot as that’s not our focus/specialty. They’re talking just having me fix & resubmit claims that were denied since we already have a group of people who actually enter the charges, & I guess my concern is that I’m going to make a huge mistake & get fired, LOL!!! I mean, that’s not gonna happen since they just love me, but still. How did you handle that when you got into the field, & what motivated you to seek a higher degree?

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              I got in by accident, actually :) I was hired as a temp to work on an update project for billing forms that were grossly out of date. The guy I was assisting quit at the end of my first week and I got hired permanently into his role when my six month contract was up (and stayed for eight years). I basically ended up picking up a lot of coding work on the fly, because my team was understaffed, and my coders went to our manager after a couple years and were like “can we get her certified please so we stop having to review her work?” So I didn’t get pretty much ANY coding education formally until I finished my HIM degree this past December, which is really not a way you can get into the field anymore. (My mom was a coder/biller for 30 years and never got certified, you DEFINITELY can’t do THAT anymore.) So all my career I’ve been a little more seat-of-the-pants than most of the coders I know. But I’ve never worried about screwing up as long as I have a reasonable explanation for why I did what I did. It might have been wrong, but it’s not dumb. Heh.

              As far as the school stuff – my first undergrad degree is in public health, I got the HIM one because that’s the only way to sit for the RHIA exam, the MBA was because I liked being in school and my MPA was actually an accident sort of, I was only two classes away from it and figured what the hell. I’m still taking random classes at the local community college because I just like being in school, haha.

    4. Rosy Glasses*

      I’m in HR and I love it! I came into HR indirectly by growing with the company I’m in, and I wish that I would have taken my HR certification sooner because I learned SO much that would have helped make other aspects of my work easier (with change management, knowledge management, and some aspects of understanding business metrics). The nice thing about HR is that in some companies having the finance component will give you extra oompf because many finance aspects overlap with HR. But you do have to like people, and processes, and understand risk management balanced with “human-ness” of making decisions.

    5. ronda*

      I got a management degree with concentration in accounting. The books for the tax class for that degree were guarenteeded to put me to sleep. :) I worked in accounting depts for my whole career, but switched to systems projects at some point and liked that much better. I did pass the cpa exam and get that license, many places require that if you want to move high up in accounting. Finance seems to like the MBA better than CPA.

      In accounting people were very busy for every month end close, more busy for quarter end close, and out the wall busy for yearend close.
      For finance, generally they were crazy busy during the budgeting cycle which took months, then ordinary busy each month end.

      Excel was critical and accounting and finance people love it. If you want to do either, more excel knowledge is going to be very helpful. And in Finance, how to graph and put in presentations (power point) is going to be very helpful too.

      There are lots of Excel functions and even tho I used excel lots, googling examples is your best friend when working with Excel.

  94. Dr. Doll*

    I’m at a university, a place where work life balance is iffy at best. I’m pretty sure my boss’s boss is one of those unusual people who actually only need 4-5 hours of sleep. BossBoss is also absolutely crazy dedicated to work.

    We just had a BHAP (big hairy audacious project) added to the year. I said, “We need to be thoughtful about the things we decide we are not going to do, now that we’re doing the BHAP.” BossBoss said, chuckling, “Well, whatever you do between midnight and 5 am.” Sure, joke, but I’ve heard BossBoss describe to a group of new faculty how spending nights and days on end in the lab led to success despite the overwhelming teaching load at our U. (I cringed; we’re supposed to be retaining faculty, not making them wish they’d never heard of us.)

    I have a team that I want to protect here. Any wisdom for me?

  95. Kate H*

    My Toxic Job has gone from bad to worse over the past couple of months and I’m actively job searching. My grandboss recently put in his notice and I was wondering–would it be weird to ask him to serve as a reference?

    If it matters: This is my first full-time position. The part-time positions I held before may not even remember who I am, let alone be able to speak to my skills in my current field. My boss knows I’m thinking about leaving (he is as well) but I don’t want to put him in a position of “selling me” to another job when it will cause him significant hardship for me to leave.

    1. BlueBelle*

      It is perfectly ok to ask him to be a reference if he has knowledge of your work. A lot of companies have policies that people are not allowed to be a reference, so with him leaving the company it frees him up to do so.
      Good luck!

  96. LawyerBird*

    Happy Friday! I’m new-ish to the Open Thread Friday thing, though I’ve followed this blog for many years. I’ve posted some on this thread in the last few weeks about wanting to transition from a private practice law firm to my state’s Attorney General’s Office. I had two interviews last week for positions in different groups within the same larger section and there was some overlap of the people I met with. I was expecting a question about which position I wanted more and had planned an answer to it. But they never asked anything like that. One interview went extremely well – it felt like one of the best interviews I’d ever had in my life! And I thought the other one went well, too. I can’t help but do some Monday morning quarter-backing about what I could have said differently or emphasized more, but overall I’m really pleased with how I presented myself. I should know something by next week or the week after. I’m feeling cautiously optimistic that one of these will work out! Fingers crossed!

  97. Special for Today*

    I’m going to put in an application for a job that would almost double my salary and would put me at the level I’ve been working toward for years. And… I actually feel like I have a shot. A former colleague who is now in charge of my old department pulled some of the things I had written for her to use as writing samples in the job application. I haven’t seen one of them in two years and, y’all, it is so good. I am so excited.

  98. Lost in the Library*

    I’ve been updating my resume and I’ve received advice from two Dept. Heads at this library that contradict everything I’ve ever read about resumes. They highly recommend putting references ON your resume? Most of the advice I’ve read regarding including references amounts to “NO! Don’t do that!!!” So… I’m kind of confused. What is the actual general consensus regarding this?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’ll often get contradicting advice, that’s normal! Everyone gets their information from their own “special” sources, sometimes their sources are literally just their own mother ;)

      My advice is to take what makes sense to you and what you hear more often than not. Use your own critical thinking skills to say “Does this make sense?”

      Even if it’s from Alison or anyone on AAM commentary, you want to use your own skills to see what feels right in your gut. Does it make sense that people would do that? Why would you do that? Does it put you at a disadvantage?

      In this case, that puts you at a disadvantage. Don’t give our more information than you’re requested to! Don’t put out your reference details to save their privacy until you need to! It also puts you at a disadvantage if they want to start digging and calling prior to even speaking to you [uncommon but not rare].

      1. Lost in the Library*

        It’s interesting, because I casually asked one department head why she recommends putting references on your resume and this was her reply:
        – I have been given terrible advice from people who probably haven’t hired! (really, it LITERALLY says everywhere to not include references unless asked)
        – If the hiring manager wants to hire me they can IMMEDIATELY call my references, instead of contacting me again
        – if an org has more than one candidate they are interested in it supposedly gives me an advantage because my references can go ahead and be contacted

        Personally, I lean more towards NOT including them unless it’s explicitly asked.

        1. PollyQ*

          Reason #1 is not actually a reason, so we can ignore it.

          Reasons #2 & 3 are, quite frankly, stupid. An employer is not looking for the easiest person to hire, or the one that can be hired the most quickly, they’re looking for the best person for the job. The minor inconvenience of asking someone for their references is hardly any trouble or wait at all, given that most job candidates are quite eager to be responsive. It’s also generally not information that will be needed until the application process is further along than the initial resume review.

          I think the best you could hope for if you include it is that it doesn’t hurt you.

    2. Language Lover*

      I’ve seen it but I always think it comes off as outdated from a time when online applications weren’t as common and resume paper was valuable.

      Online application systems have changed things. Most systems will allow you to upload separate documents for cover letter, resume, references or any other document you might need (like transcripts) that the system requires.

      Or they’ll have you fill out that information in the online app.

      And if they’re super annoying, they’ll have you do both.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      PS. I used to do this and it never hurt me. I know others who still do it. I took mine off because it bloats my resume and I need that space darn it ;) Sometimes you use it if you’re kind of overcompensating for limited experience. “I don’t have much on this resume but you can call my high school teachers to get their opinion!!!” style.

    4. irene adler*

      No. Keep your references off of the resume. That is something that you don’t want to submit until asked for.
      This also allows you to tailor your reference choices to the job.

      The resume is for showing you in your best light to your prospective employer. You want all the space you can get to accomplish that. Don’t waste that space on refs.

    5. Oxford Comma*

      I wonder if this is because a lot of library positions require references at the time of application. Whatever you do if you’re staying in libraries do not put “References available on request” on the bottom.

      Mine have always been in a separate document, though.

    6. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      This is pretty common in my field, but our application process is often just sending a CV, no application forms and frequently no interviews. Often the application instructions specifically ask for reference details so I’ve found out easier to just put a couple of lines on my CV. YMMV of course.

  99. mike_b*

    my manager is obviously trying to get me in trouble because she doesn’t like me personally. I went from being an ok employee to someone who has a lot of problems coincidentally when she showed up. The problems are either not documented, exaggerated, or false. I have to write a self-assessment. How do I make this clear without actually accusing her of being bad at her job?

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        I totally agree with Colette. Your statistics have to be unarguable, and preferably from a source your boss can’t alter. Also, consider finding a way to enhance the stat (if it’s true). For the llama grooming example above, it could look like “Groomed 25 llamas during the rating period, making me the second-fastest llama groomer on a staff of five.” For the llama feed example: “During the evaluation period, regularly restocked the llama feed in all locations, without supervision or guidance, and with a 100% on-time rate.” I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

  100. Nacho*

    I was recently laid off and I’m trying to figure out how long is too long to wait before looking for a new job. I’ve got some money to tide me over for the next few years, but I don’t want too big of a gap in my resume. What’s a good time frame?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Hmmm. How much experience do you have overall? I’d be wary about going longer than a year. Since it can be hard to predict how long an employment search will take, I don’t think that I’d wait more than a few months to start applying again.

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      I would start looking now. You never know how long it will take you to get a new job especially in this economy.

    3. Colette*

      Look now (but be selective).

      I used to work at a place that had massive, repeated layoffs and eventually went bankrupt. In my experience, people who “took the summer off” before job hunting had a lot harder time finding a new job than people who looked right away. I think once you’re not working, it’s really easy to keep not working – and eventually the money runs out.

    4. part time pants*

      I would start looking now just in case there is a gem of a job that would be perfect for you. Just keep your eyes open to the possibilities.

    5. MacGillicuddy*

      Do not wait. Start job hunting now.

      Job hunting is time consuming.
      If you got laid off, contact your state’s unemployment office immediately and sign up for unemployment. There’s usually a waiting period that doesn’t start until you actually sign up.

      If your resume isn’t ready to go, that’s your first priority.

      And I’d you start getting interviews, keep applying to other jobs – even after first or second interviews. You need to keep filling the pipeline.

      You’re lucky to have resources, but unfortunately the longer you’re out of work, the harder it is to get hired. You’ll be asked what you’ve been doing since your last job.

      This site has lots of resources for resume writing, cover letters, interviewing, etc. Good luck!

  101. ADHD Career Changer*

    TLDR: Should I offer to go part time? How should I frame that request? Happy to provide more context if needed.

    I work in one of the industries worst hit by the pandemic (think live events, theatre, music, etc). My employer has recently announced a round of layoffs, and very surprisingly I wasn’t included.

    I’m in the UK and I’m on furlough (the government is paying most of my salary and I’m still an employee on payroll, for me until Nov 1). This year, I finally realised that I can’t cope with office jobs. I have fairly severe ADHD, and I just can’t seem to be happy or functional in traditional office jobs. I procrastinate, get overwhelmed, and always end up getting so depressed that I need to take medical leave.
    I was so sure I was going to be laid off, and I was going to take this year to gain experience in more hands-on fields and explore going back to school. I live with my mum and have some savings. Now I’m not sure what to do – intellectually I know I should hang on to my job during this horrible recession, and I feel guilty for not being more grateful.

    I’ve been considering asking if I can go down to 3 or 4 days a week, but I don’t know what I would say. If I admit it’s because I want to leave the field and get experience elsewhere, I imagine that would look horribly ungrateful, plus presumably they would want to replace me with someone more committed and excited about the work. If I say I want a reduced workload because of my mental health/ADHD (which is also true!)… that won’t go down well either. I don’t have kids. They have been constantly emphasising how dire the financial situation is, so I think they would welcome cutting my hours from that perspective. But my pay is already low and I think they would be very confused.

    1. Colette*

      What do you want to do, job-wise? I think your first step is to figure that out. (Medical technician of some sort? Auto mechanic? Physiotherapist? Retail? Food service? Sales? )

      It’ll be more easy to explain if you want to cut your hours to go back to school, for one thing, but also, it’s not a great time to be without a job if you don’t know what your next step is.

      1. ADHD Career Changer*

        Yeah that’s the big question isn’t it! I appreciate your list – physiotherapy is one of the things I’m considering. I’d like a field that is person-centered and where it is difficult to procrastinate the work (because you are paid for your time and skills, rather than your output). I also would love to work with kids. Current options include: counsellor, therapist, social worker, youth worker, learning disability specialist, etc. I find it’s really hard to decide which field to invest in.

        Thanks for your thoughts!

    2. Bagpuss*

      Frame it as a flexible working request . Have a look at the government and ACAS websites for information on how to frame it and what factors they should stake into account in considering your request.
      You don’t have to tell them why you want to make the request – their decision should be based on the legal criteria which are mostly about how it would impact the business.
      Ideally, you want to make a request which makes it easy for them to approve – so for instance, if you are normally busiest on Fridays because people want to book stuff for the weekend, then asking to go down to a 4 day, Mon-Thursday week might not be workable, but asking to go to a 4 day week where you take Wednesday off might be fine, for instance. In the same way, think about how your work would be covered. Is there someone else who would be able to pick up the slack, if not, is it a job that would lend itself to job-sharing (bearing in mind that having 2 people job sharing is a bit more expensive for the employer than 1 person full time, so isn’t necessarily a very appealing option)
      Also, bear in mind that there may be further redundancies ahead if things don’t improve. If you have dropped a day or more that would affect any redundancy payment you might be entitled to, and might also affect the selection criteria

      1. ADHD Career Changer*

        This is very helpful thank you – I hadn’t even heard about flexible working requests!

        You’re right about possible additional layoffs. Apparently my company is working with 3 possible scenarios for reopening: best case, medium case, and worst case. If the best case doesn’t happen, there will almost certainly be another round. Your feedback makes me wonder if I should try to hold on for a little while, because 1) I might be let go anyway 2) a cursory look at the ACAS website indicates I need to be at a workplace for 26 weeks before making a request.

        Thanks again for your thoughts!

  102. lazy intellectual*

    Question about ADHD at work.

    Curious as to what kinds of reasonable ADHD accommodations people have asked for at work that were effective. Ideally, they would be something you could ask for without disclosing ADHD, but I’m also curious to hear from people who did disclose. TYIA!

    1. ADHD Career Changer*

      I commiserate – I don’t really have much advice except basic stuff (headphones, frequent breaks, etc). One thing I used to do at an old job was verbalise my goals for the day with a coworker, who kindly did the same with her workload so it felt less like I was being accommodated and more like a nice daily chat.

      I’m interested in people’s responses!

    2. blepkitty*

      I just requested longer deadlines, but I doubt I’ll actually get them (to be clear, my boss just defaults to super short deadlines, like giving me something at 4PM and expecting it done by noon the next day, and then sometimes doesn’t do anything with the work I sent her for months; I don’t object to client deadlines).

  103. Surly Office Manager*

    Any advice on asking your boss to give you more positive feedback?

    I felt this post so hard: https://www.askamanager.org/2020/09/i-need-to-give-my-employee-more-positive-feedback.html

    Except I am the employee that wants more positive feedback. My boss and I do not have any regular check-ins or 1:1s, which makes bringing this up more awkward. I have no idea how to ask without sounding like I’m whining. Or, honestly, without crying.

    The last straw came a couple of weeks ago — I ghostwrote a piece that garnered a lot of praise for my department, both within my company and one of our partners. The owner of our company emailed my boss to say, “Hey, nice work on ghostblog!” and she didn’t mention that I actually wrote the piece. She didn’t say anything to me in private, either.

    This feels like it has progressed from “I’m bad at talking to my boss” to “I am harming my professional reputation and future opportunities because I don’t speak up.” And I don’t know what my next steps should be, or if I’m even asking the right question.

    Anyway, thank you, I’m sorry if this question is unclear.

    1. BlueBelle*

      Can you ask for regular 1:1s? I coach people at my company that if they aren’t getting regular 1:1s with their manager, to ask for them. It is part of our culture here, so you will gauge if that is done at your company or not. I think it is fair to ask for development! You can say- “I want to continue to grow in my role and would really like to meet with you regularly to get feedback on my work.”
      Good luck and congratulations on the good piece you wrote! :)

      1. Surly Office Manager*

        Thank you :)

        People do 1:1s at my company, but I’ve never asked because I barely do any work for her directly and wasn’t sure what we would talk about. I’ve also gotten the impression that there is no room for growth in my role, so I’ve avoided using that phrasing.

        I should ask to setup a regular meeting, though. It’s just difficult, because she has no problem giving me negative feedback, but I can count on one hand the number of times she has told me I’ve done a good job, or that my work was excellent. I don’t know if I’m just oversensitive, or if that is an issue I can legitimately bring up.

  104. tacocat*

    Task X, a new activity/task for me, is due monthly. I need document X in order to do it.
    Document X comes through later in the day Tuesday and is due on Thursday. I have to meet with someone who helps me make changes to Document X on Wednesday, then he is supposed to send me final numbers to summarize for management at the end of the day.
    Except he never does it on time. He’s late every time. Which means I’m late every time. It’s now Friday at 1:15pm , my numbers/summary were due yesterday, and I have no idea what the numbers are.
    It’s because he’s absolutely inundated and doesn’t have any backup, which is my (cheap) company’s fault. He’s actually great at his job and great to work with… However, it’s also my neck on the line for when I send this late every month and I can’t exactly be like “I had the email queued up to send but was waiting for the main event, which were the numbers..”
    He’s never been THIS late, though – it feels condescending to be like “hey, can you send me those numbers you said you were going to send?” but at this point I’m nervous about getting my summary in AT ALL.

    Has anyone dealt with this kind of situation??

    1. Observer*

      and I can’t exactly be like “I had the email queued up to send but was waiting for the main event, which were the numbers..”

      Why not? You should ALSO have the bigger picture conversation with your boss saying “This schedule doesn’t work. Cecil is great at what he does, but his schedule is such that he simply can’t get me the numbers that I need in time to get this out on time. What can we do?”

    2. Generic Name*

      Yes, all the time. It’s not condescending to ask for something when it’s late. You don’t have to be super harsh or anything. You can simply reply/forward the last email you sent/received and say something like, “hey, I’m hoping to get this out the door tomorrow. What’s the status on those numbers? Do I need to request an extension of the due date?” Sometimes people just forget to do stuff.

  105. mako*

    My new manager (new to company/role only 2 months in) just asked me in my 1-on-1 to rate my job happiness on scale of 1 to 10. This was after she vaguely mentioned job/salary review that was currently in progress and pending approvals.

    I feel like this is some type of test – if I am happy in my job, would I not be considered for promotion? If I am unhappy would I be considered a retention risk and incentivized with more money? Or conversely, would I be rewarded if I am happy, and if unhappy would they look to downsize me?

    Seriously, how should I answer this question? I am one of the most senior on team with high workload and output and am getting close to burnout. I have been looking at other jobs quietly, as well.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Answer honestly. I don’t think it is a trick question to figure out of they need to promote you because of unhappiness.

      Now, I wouldn’t 1/10, do not like. But a middle rating and being honest about being near burnout and what you enjoy is super important for your manager to know. Even if you don’t get promoted something needs to change before you burn out.

      1. mako*

        Thanks, fair assessment. I feel like my company thinks about comp and promotions in an odd way, so that I need to play the game, or something.

        (Before my manager was hired, grandboss hired 2 new people for our team to assist with the workload – and they have higher job titles than any of existing team. They are considered junior resources but we were told that the comp strategy to attract external hires was offering higher titles/pay even if the actual scope of what they were going to do once onboarded was lower. Think a recent grad getting a Senior title.)

  106. Former Retail Manager*

    Late to this party, but wondering if anyone here has had any luck in guiding their young adult child when it comes to choosing a college major / path forward in life. I’m having a difficult time getting her to understand the concept of ROI (return on investment) and that your job does not need to be your life’s passion. For context, she is 20, very emotional (versus analytical), does a poor job of managing her finances despite my best efforts to assist, and seems dead set on having a job that she “really, really likes.” She is also someone that lives very much in the present. 10 years (or even 5 years) seems very far away to her and discussions of things like health insurance, upward mobility in a career, and work-life balance seem to fall on deaf ears. She’s currently attending community college (part-time) and has about a year left. My hope was that community college would help her decide what fields she may have some interest in, but that doesn’t seem to have happened. She jumps around A LOT and right now, it doesn’t matter, but once she transfers and chooses a major, it will certainly matter.

    Any suggestions are welcome and thanks in advance.

    1. BlueBelle*

      I think it is less about interest, but what are her strengths? Is she good with and enjoys being around people? Is she good with her hands? What kind of summer jobs or jobs has she had? What did she like and dislike about them?
      I think at 20 we all thought that our work would be our passion :) I think it is a wonderful to have and soon enough her spirit will be crushed by reality, let her figure it out. That’s what growing up and college is all about!

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Are you supporting her financially? Money/financial support seemed to be the main tool we had to get our kid to make different decisions. Choosing a major and a career wasn’t the issue, but School A offered him $10,000/yr for baseball and School B offered him everything paid for but a meal plan. He wanted to go to School A. We said fine but YOU pay the difference. He want to School B. Then, when Covid hit during his senior season and he got eligibility for one more year, he wanted to go back. He would have been on scholarship and would have had to take classes for no reason, but even then it still costs us about $5,000-$10,000/yr to cover his food and living expenses. We said HE would pay for that plus things like car insurance, and he decided not to go back. After watching him piss away his graduation gift money all summer, I’m very much looking forward to him moving out (next week, fingers crossed), buying his own food and paying his own utilities.

      It’s a different issue than what you’re dealing with, but I think the concept of ROI is hard to understand if it’s not their money.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Another story: My sister is a lot younger than me, and she was one of those “you don’t have to have a lot of money to be happy” types. She lived with our parents until she was 26 doing things that didn’t pay a lot, like substitute teaching and medical office reception, but once she was out on her own, she financed an accelerated nursing degree and started making some money in that field. My parents had already paid for a BS and M.Ed. for her, but her career didn’t go anywhere until she was in the driver’s seat of her life.

    3. Always Late to the Party*

      Not a parent and not a very young adult anymore, but I’m curious what *she* wants to do? It sounds like you have a lot of expectations for her to have a very specific kind of life…is that what she wants?
      Also, I think there are more careers where college major *doesn’t* matter than careers where it does, and most of those are more analytical in nature so maybe not of interest to her. She will not have many opportunities to explore her passions so…maybe the best thing is to give her a little more independence? Work some entry-level jobs and follow her spirit a bit? Does she have the space with your parenting to make her own mistakes and have to deal with the consequences?

      I say this as someone who chose an extremely practical major with a clear career path. When I graduated the only jobs I could get interviews for seemed awful and not at all what I wanted to do so I ended up temping in a minimum wage job and then doing some admin work for a few years.

    4. AP.*

      I just want to point out that getting credits transferred from a 2-year school to a 4-year school can be tricky. So, it kind of does matter what she’s taking right now in community college.

      If she’s looking to enroll at the local state-run university it may be more straightforward, but even then not everything will transfer. You can research “articulation agreements” between the two schools to understand more about what will and won’t be accepted.

    5. D3*

      My youngest is in college now, I have been through this multiple times, and my advice is: back off. Back waaaaaay off. You need to let her make her own choices, let her manage her own finances, and let her make her own mistakes and deal with her own consequences. Just quit micromanaging your adult child. She doesn’t have to figure it out on your time table. She doesn’t need to calculate an ROI for all her life choices. She doesn’t need to have the same financial priorities you do. She DOES need to learn to be an adult. She DOES need to find her own way.
      Be available if she ASKS for advice (but stick to what she’s asking about!) but DO. NOT. MEDDLE.
      I know this probably isn’t what you wanted to hear, but this is more of a YOU problem than a HER problem.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yesssssss. My parents were gung-ho for me to be in college because That Was What We Do In Our Family, and I didn’t know what I wanted to do yet, and I flunked out of three different colleges (seriously, my highest GPA of the three was 0.4 on a four-point scale) before they finally stopped. Then I worked for a few years, and figured out what general career field I wanted to be in, and now I have two bachelor degrees (one magna cum laude) and two masters degrees and fifteen years of career experience. I am no less successful because I didn’t start my actual educational path until I was 27 — in fact, I’m arguably MORE successful than I would have been, had I continued to throw myself against that wall when I was 20. Set your boundaries, what you’re willing to do to support her, and let her figure the rest of it out.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        My brother was the “directionless” one in our family, and my mom micromanaged him into two universities that he withdrew from (ahead of failing out) and multiple comm college courses that he just didn’t attend.

        Eventually they kicked him out of the nest, he briefly enlisted, washed out, and came home on the promise of getting and keeping a job. He got a food service job and held it for around 5 years before deciding he wanted something else. 25 years later, he’s been at the same job that he likes and suits him for 20 of those years and owns his house. He honestly had no idea what he wanted to do and kind of fell into the job he now has. He wasn’t seeking a passion, he just … didn’t have a real preference except “not office work.” But he absolutely had to work it out for himself and it took him a long time.

    6. Colette*

      She’s an adult; she gets to make her own decisions. And so do you – you can, for example, decide that you will help pay for 4 years of post-secondary education and after that she’s on her own or that you won’t help her pay down debt or loan her money.

      But her career (or job) is not something you get a vote in. She will figure it out, in a way that works for her.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      If she doesn’t know what she wants to do yet, why would she transfer to a 4-year college. Let her finish CC and work until she’s ready for more if she’s ever ready for more college. She can learn how to manage her finances, about health insurance while earning money instead of spending it at college.

      I have a STEM degree. There was a decently paying, career path to follow when I graduated. I don’t think young people should be attending college and stacking up debt to figure things out when they could work and do the same thing. Even public universities are overpriced in the US.

    8. Rainy*

      My parents picked my first major for me. I was good at it, but I hated it and hated the way those degree programs were run and hated the fact that I’ve never met faculty in that field that weren’t assholes and it was just overall an absolutely terrible fit for me that significantly derailed my life. I dropped out and was so badly affected by that perceived failure (and also my parents telling me what a failure I was because of it) that I couldn’t even try to go back to school for years.

      When I did, a couple of things were different. Because I was older, I had a better grasp on who I was and what I wanted to do, and I had a lot more focus. I picked a major I enjoyed rather than worrying about “ROI”, and then I did graduate work in that discipline, and now I work in a completely different field that nonetheless relies heavily on my experience of having obtained degrees in that discipline.

      Instead of telling her “your job doesn’t need to be your life’s passion”, maybe let her figure that stuff out for herself. For some people, it does. For others, their job just supports their real passion. She’s 20, and no matter what she majors in, likely as not she won’t end up working in that field. If the real point is that you are tired of supporting her, just…stop. She’s 20, she’ll figure it out.

      If she likes hands-on stuff, she could consider a trade school. If you’re in the US, we desperately need young people to go into the trades, and if she wants to go to university later, she’ll have a better idea of who she is and what she’s interested in, plus a history of real work experience.

    9. Dust Bunny*

      If you’re supporting her, insist that she either finish a major, any major, or go part-time and get a job. More than one of my high school classmates was motivated either because they found a job they liked and wanted to advance it in, or because they realized they didn’t want to get stuck in the kids of jobs they could get without a college degree.

      2. tangerineRose*

        Yeah what Dust Bunny said. School or work. I worked while going to school, and that was a big motivator for me – working in fast food is stressful.

    10. Generic Name*

      Is she living with you and are you financially supporting her? It’s easy to faff around indefinitely if there are no consequences like missing resent or having to eat ramen. My son is 13, but I’m already preparing him for post school life. I’ve told him we’ll support him if he is going to college/trade school. If he doesn’t want to do that but still wants to live at home, he can get a job and pay us rent.

      1. HBJ*

        My parents were the exact same. We knew from at least early high school that we would not have to pay rent as long as we were in school full-time. After that, we would have to pay rent if we still wanted to live at home.

    11. lazy intellectual*

      I’m going to echo ‘back off’. Your child will make mistakes – they will either be hers or yours. I recommend it be hers. But the making mistakes part is inevitable. Most people don’t approve of what they did at 20 years old, but she might as well do what she wants to do now and build off of that. It’s difficult to think long-term at 20, and I’m actually not a fan of pressuring kids to make career choices at that age, especially when they have very little work experience.

    12. gingko*

      The best advice I heard at that age, which I think can address both your concerns and hers, was to think about what kind of lifestyle I wanted in the future. This can include the kind of job you want to have, but also where you want to live, whether a six-figure salary is important to you or you’re OK just getting by (and of course your opinion on this will change as you gain a better understanding of what it takes to get by, but you can’t force that understanding!), what you want to do in your spare time, how important your job is to you, etc. Discussions of ROI or work-life balance would really not have resonated with me at that age. I get it – you’re concerned for her. But the way you’ve framed it focuses on what you want for her (or what you want her to understand), which is an easy way to get her to shut down. Framing it in terms of what she wants for herself allows her to daydream a bit while also putting her in the driver’s seat. She might not come up with the same answers that you would (or even that an older and more experienced version of her would), but it’s at least a way of getting her to consciously consider that stuff, and when I was a naive college student it was really eye-opening to me to frame it that way instead of just trying to figure out what my “passion” was.

    13. pencilcase*

      I disagree with the back off thing that so many parents of a certain type seem to think is the way to go.

      I had back off parents and I wish I’d had more guidance. Despite them being professionals they never explained things like income disparities between jobs and as an average intellect 18 year old when the internet wasn’t as full of info, I didn’t know the difference between careers.

      I grew up very much in the ‘do what you love!’ era for millienials of a certain culture. Yet, I live in a very expensive country without a trust fund.

      Some parents hate talking money. You literally should sit your kids down and lay out how much it costs to own a home, run a car, buy food, take a vacation, save for retirement, raise your own family etc and point out that some careers barely or don’t cover this. And that you, parent, are at best an emergency source of funds but not ongoing past x age.

      If the child then still decides to be an artist then great! They went in with their eyes wide open. But it is annoying for many in my generation that we were told to do what we love, no one explained the cost of living as parents hated talking about money, you choose a degree at the immature age of like 17 and you’re expected to have made a wise choice?

      Kids need guidance and the hard truth of what is costs to live and what pays and what doesn’t. After that they can make an informed decision.

    14. KoiFeeder*

      Having seen those people when I was in college, most of them just need more time/experience. Some of them sped up the process by getting a job that didn’t require a degree and then going back to college/trade school once they figured things out, but some of them just spent six or so years in college rather than the typical four.

      (Slight digression, but I don’t suppose you could share some of those finance management resources? Despite my best efforts, I’m bad at the money thing.)

    15. Flora*

      I have to tell you that it makes my heart hurt to hear a parent advise their child to consider ROI as paramount in choosing what to study. For some kids, yes, they want something really practical that they can find a job doing. For some, that’s basically the definition of hell. If she doesn’t want to study a thing, it’s totally unreasonable to expect she will be a happy adult working in that field because of ROI. (in fact, the return might well be zero because heyyyyy she hates it.) In any case, if talking about that isn’t working as a hook, then I am going to guess that it’s not actually going to be a good motivator anyway and that by continuing to push it you might be sending a message that, considered outside of the lens of helping her find direction, you might feel icky about. The investment she is making, or you are, is in growing her into who she wants to be. She may not KNOW who she wants to be at 20, an d it may turn out that who she wants to be is not in keeping with the kind of return you’re thinking about. So I’m sure you’re motivated by looking out for her long term security and interests, but… I’d rather my kid did not internalize the message that it’s totally great to feel super meh about work, which is a thing we do more than a third of our waking time, indefinitely.

      As a point of reference, my kids are both older than this, and both know what their passions are. One is amazing at finances, but took a fairly scenic route through college; the other is unbelievably awful at finances but works for passion and is happy with that being who he is. They’re both awesome and I am thrilled they both like themselves.

    16. Not trying to be rude, just good at it*

      My cousins sound much like your daughter. They went to a liberal arts college and graduated with over $100,000 in student load debt and ability to make $40,000 a year even with a Masters Degree. Now they argue that Bernie Sanders for president is the only choice because they realize they will never be able to pay off their student loans with their current earnings potential and not willing to work a second job to help pay down debt. Be firm with your daughter to the point of providing relevant information and choices. Provide guidance on finances. In the end, she will be making her own choices, you can only hope you can guide her on profitable ones.

  107. Anonymous Hippo*

    So I just had an interview that lasted 5 minutes.

    Where did I go wrong. The recruiter I have been talking to approached me last week with a job as Accounting Manager, at X Company, and wanted to know if I’d like to set up an interview. He sent me the job description, and it states it is Accounting Supervisor, and the job duties are several steps back from where I was even before I was promoted over a year ago. I called the recruiter back, and expressed my concern that this was not enough job for me, and that if we went forward with the interview it would be wasting both the company and my time. He assured me that they thought I was a top candidate, and that he had provided my salary requirements, and that they wouldn’t want to talk to me if they didn’t have something more for me. So I agreed to go forward. (Was this the mistake?)

    First question the interviewer asked was why I want this job. I guess I could have talked about the company itself or why I like accounting, but I’m just really upfront, so I just told her basically exactly what I told the recruiter. (Mistake?). She said that no, this is exactly the job they are looking to fill, and that the next step would be their (there interviewer’s job) and she wasn’t going anywhere anytime soon. So at this point, there seems no point in going forward, so we end the call.

    I guess I”m trying to figure out if I just approached this completely wrongheadedly, or if I had a bad recruiter, or what happened.

    2. Observer*

      Bad recruiter.

      Why do you think something was “wrong” here? You knew what you wanted, you found out that the job did not match what you wanted, the employer found out that you don’t match what they need, and you concluded politely and without wasting anyone’s time.

      The only real issue here is that the recruiter either lied to you or is incompetent (or both). The takeaway here is not the interview, but to trust what you see. When a job description says X, don’t take the recruiter’s word that it “really” means Y. Ask them to get confirmation IN WRITING. Double if this is an external recruiter.

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        A 5 minute interview feels like a failure. I’ve not had many interviews cause I’ve been luckily hired quickly, but I always came out of them feeling like I nailed it. It was disheartening.

        I was already hesitant at the idea of using a recruiter because this is my first job search to use them, and this makes me even less trusting.

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, but the thing is that the goal is to get a job that fits not to “ace an interview” for a job that makes no sense. If you had walked into that interview and discovered that his place doesn’t need account managers – they don’t have accounts, they are a lion rescue and they need lion trainers to teach the lions how to live in the wild again, wouldn’t you expect the interview to be over immediately? Would you consider that a failure?

          Sure, that’s a LOT more dramatic and obvious (and a fun story to tell), but essentially that’s what happened to you. There is no “success” in prolonging an interview for the wrong job.

    3. Sherm*

      Not only did you do everything correctly, you handled it better than a lot of people would have. It doesn’t sound like anything you could have started off with could have overcome the fact that this wasn’t the job for you. I know how a terminated interview might feel like a disaster, but in truth it allowed both you and the interviewer to save some time and continue with other tasks of the day.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      The recruiter tried to oversell you on a job and wasted both yours and the company’s time. You did the right thing both in pointing out initially that it didn’t seem like a good fit and by being honest with the interviewer about what happened.

    5. PollyQ*

      Echoing others to say that you didn’t do anything wrong, except maybe believe the recruiter (who wasted both your time and the interviewer’s), and that a 5-minute interview for a job that you didn’t actually want is a success, not a failure. Once you & she figured out that it wasn’t a good match, what would have been the point of talking any longer?

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        I guess I felt I should have managed to turn it into a networking opportunity at the very least, but I was so thrown by it that I didn’t recover enough to do so.

        1. PollyQ*

          Well, maybe in a perfect world that might’ve happened. But if I were in your interviewer’s shoes, and had just found out that the recruiter had sent me someone who never should’ve been moved along in the process, I’d’ve been far too irritated to do any networking. Still not your fault! And still nothing for you to blame yourself for.

  108. JPVaina*

    What are the best ways to interrupt long-talkers professionally? My boss is a long-talker and when I’ve tried to politely say that “we’re coming up on time,” or “yes, I think we’re clear on that point,” he’ll say to not interrupt him. Anyone have anything that works?

    1. Sarra N. Dipity*

      Super Soaker?

      (just kidding)

      I an an interrupter (ADHD doesn’t help) but I’ve been slowly training myself to rely more heavily on body language. if I need to say something, leaning forward and raising my hand/index finger to face level. If the conversation/meeting needs to end, turning slightly away and doing the hand thing at the same time.

      also, “I’m sorry to interrupt, but I want to be respectful of everyone’s time” is a phrase I’ve used successfully in the past.

    2. Frankie Bergstein*

      I am struggling with this issue, and here’s what has worked in one situation. Create an agenda in a table (or whatever format you like) with an item number, time allocated (e.g., 1pm-1:05pm – ensure everyone is logged in and audio settings work), who is responsible for leading that agenda item, and what the agenda item is. Before the meeting starts, ask everyone if there are any edits to your agenda. It’ll get buy-in from folks and is a good check that you got it right. Keep the agenda up on the screen and take notes while folks are talking so they know you’re listening. If you don’t want to do that, copy and paste the agenda into the chat (if you’re doing an online meeting, of course). Keep a parking lot for when folks bring up off topic items or go on tangents. If folks go off-topic, say, “great point!” and add it to the section of the agenda labeled “parking lot”. You can either bring those things up at the next meeting OR discuss them if there’s time at the end of your meeting.

      I found with one set of folks in a professional setting — there were five of us; two were long-winded. They saw the agenda – they reined themselves in and were receptive to my little nudges to move forward to the next agenda item. However, it failed in another professional setting. That person didn’t rein herself in. I ultimately couldn’t make that second situation work better, so I’ll be eagerly reading other responses. Great question, JPVaina!

    3. Generic Name*

      I’ve had to interrupt someone in a professional way, and I’ve unfortunately had to resort to interrupting with phrases like “I’m sorry, I have to jump in.” or “Let me stop you right there” If I didn’t blatantly talk over them, I would have never been able to speak, and it was really important that I didn’t allow the other person to drone on. It feels super uncomfortable, especially if you were raised to be Nice, but it has to be done.

  109. Rachel*

    My boss (not my direct lead but the owner) has mentioned to me several times that I need to work on my confidence. He says I’m great and he’s happy with everything I’m doing, but I have a tendency to worry if things don’t get done and I need to have more confidence in my work because it’s great. As someone who’s experienced trauma, this is something I struggle with but I was unaware he or my team lead were picking up on it to such an extent. Does anyone have any resources or advice for how I can gain confidence not just in the workplace but in my day to day life as well? I’m a bit wary of self-help books and would really like to know if anyone has experienced similar feedback and what has helped them. Thank you!!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I think there are a couple different things to consider with confidence–exhibiting confidence vs. having confidence. It sounds like you actually do struggle with the second one. I personally work in a place with a loud, extravert culture and my behavior would be interpreted as lacking confidence. That’s a different situation.

      To become more confident, I think everything you work through or accomplish helps build confidence. I went through some things in my personal life at a young adult age, and I always think that nothing I do now is as hard as that was. If I could do that, I can do this. I’ve also found setting and meeting personal fitness goals help, too. Doing stuff seems more beneficial than reading about how to be confident, to me, but if you need to project confidences, reading how to do that could help.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Therapy helped me. I had a terrible, demoralizing job that completely ate my confidence and self-esteem, so off to the therapist I went.

      Barring that, did he give you any specific examples of how your behavior reflects a lack of confidence? Do you send your boss documents and then say things like, “I don’t know if this is right” or “This doesn’t seem right but I’m sending it anyway”? When you’re complimented on your work, do you thank the person complimenting you, or do you say something disparaging like, “No, it’s not really that great”? If stuff like that pops into your head, take a deep breath and start by saying “Thank you.”

      Your boss sounds really kind and happy with your work, so listen to him! It’s easier said than done. But try to stop yourself from the response you want to give and wait for him to come to you with feedback– because he probably will. But as someone who has managed someone who lacked confidence, the most frustrating thing was when she argued with my praise. Or she argued when I said things like, “It’s ok if you need another day.”

      If it helps, write down your negative thoughts and don’t say them out loud. Then go back and next to those thoughts, write down the actual, real feedback you get, even if it’s “Thank you so much!” or “This looks good, thanks.” Sometimes writing helps me by getting the thoughts out of my head but writing rather than speaking means they don’t get into anyone else’s head.

  110. Bob the Builder*

    I am quite enjoying this new career in the building industry. My resume has you know, tinker, tailor,soldier,sailor… and I can ”figure out stuff” even I have been past 20 years an office rat certain dynamics work. Mindnumbing droning as a human roomba and moving spars and boards… so much for an uni degree. But the management is brutal. So far this week’s cull is only 3 labourers. We have a rotating door. The boss actually is not that bad, apart being a tartar, but he won’t stand anyone being late for the morning roll call. This week’s new guy didn’t show up today and he had said he’s moving materials and not ”cleaning up” so I think the agency got told to send another assclown. The two others ”jumped ship” to work with the pipe insulators and we’re having a few jibes when we meet them. And we got a ”new guy” off the scree layers but he was walkabout and buggered off half day so very peculiar if I see him next week as he was supposed to be my minion today, which never happened. Then again I am assigned to the ”big boss’s floor” and assclownery is not allowed thence. I’ve been ”mentioned in dispatches” already twice so I now have a bit of a reputation to uphold.

    I am 50- years old, worked past 20 years in cozy offices and now I am skylarking on scaffoldings…

  111. Asana and Slack?*

    Hey Asana users! My team at work is piloting Asana for a few months. Any tips for a new user, or things you wish you knew when you first started using Asana? Favorite features, tricks, or shortcuts?
    We are also piloting Slack, which we started a couple months ago. I love Slack! My manager loves Slack too, but he thinks Asana might replace both. Does anyone have any insight or thoughts around whether Asana can replace Slack? I find Slack to be more user-friendly and intuitive, and easy to use for quick interactions, almost like IM-ing except that it preserves the conversation (we are using the paid version). I also love how easy it is to drag attachments and emails over to Slack to share with others. And I love that Slack has a desktop app, whereas Asana is web-based only except for its mobile app.
    Also, I have one Slack question — When I drag an email from Outlook to Slack, it automatically deletes the email in Outlook. I cannot find how to change settings in either Outlook or Slack so that it doesn’t delete the email. Does anyone know? My workaround is to find the email in my trash and move it back to my inbox if I want to keep it.
    Thank you for any insights or suggestions!

  112. Waiting to be Future Endeavored*

    Seeking tips on working from home with a child in early elementary school. Our childcare setup (shared with a sitter) is falling apart and in a couple weeks our first grader will be doing her school from home with just me and my husband to help. We’re both WFH full-time. My husband is non-exempt with few meetings, and I’m exempt with more meetings but a flexible boss. I’m considering moving my desk from our bedroom to the room she’s using for school, and he’d move from the basement area to our room so at least we’re all on the same floor.

    She’s been doing pretty well accessing her classes on her own and I already have things set up like alarms to remind her when to ‘return to class,’ but I worry how it might change.

    1. Generic Name*

      I think you’ll need to come up with a schedule with your spouse about who is on “school duty” and also ask for understanding and flexibility from your job. I had to interrupt a 1:1 with an executive for a few moments so I could go tell my kid he needed to get on a google meeting. She heard his massive groan and thought it was hilarious. There are no good answers or silver bullets and it’s going to suck.

    2. Nita*

      I think the desk setup sounds good. We did that in the spring. It helped that I could keep one eye on the kid to see if he’s starting to go clicking things instead of focusing on class. And sometimes he actually had a question and I could explain on the spot.

    3. valentine*

      Everyone has their own office. One adult goes into hers when necessary. I mean, are you going to have to pack up and leave for a meeting while hubs goes in to oversee school, but then you have to go back for xyz or go without it because you don’t want to tell your colleagues your setup?

      I foresee increased chaos and disaster from sharing, and see only good things from maintaining separate spaces as much as poss.

      1. Waiting to be Future Endeavored*

        He has a more complicated computer set up so would flex out when on school duty. I can move easily from desktop to laptop in a different room. Mainly I don’t want him in the basement while child and I are upstairs because then he’ll never be on duty. I do worry about sharing a space with the first grader as she tends to sing while muted and things like that. I used to work in a cube farm but still!

  113. Amethystmoon*

    So the company I work for suddenly this week has decided to get really heavy-handed, apparently our flex time has disappeared. No one can be more than 7 minutes late, and I guess they don’t care if you made up the time.

    Also, taking sick days are counted as unplanned absences and can now be used against us. We go back to the office in November. Guess what’s going to happen with Covid?

    Ugh. They should just not give us so much pto if we cannot really use it.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        I can’t, one of my coworkers is retiring in a few months and I have no real back up. Retiring coworker has memory problems and is a computer luddite. So I would for sure have to wait til new person is trained in.

        1. Colette*

          Of course you can leave if it’s best for you – it’s on your management to make sure they have a plan for back up.

        4. blepkitty*

          I agree with CatCat. That’s your employer’s problem, not yours, and they should expect people to leave when they take away benefits, regardless of the impact it will have on them. You don’t have to keep them from sleeping in the bed they made!

          1. tangerineRose*

            Yes, this is the company’s problem, not yours. If they want to retain employees, they shouldn’t be so obnoxious about time off. Do the decision makers never get sick suddenly, or do they figure the rules don’t apply to them?

        5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You have a fantastic heart! I have to echo the others and confirm that this isn’t your problem.

          I have a kind of job where if I leave, it causes chaos regardless of when or how I exit, it can be made worse or better with a few steps but it’s always chaos. The rub is I’m usually paid enough to make arrangements and bend my own exit strategies towards it. And I am close to the person who signs my checks and is directly giving me raises, etc.

          You don’t owe a big machine of a company ANYTHING but professionalism in how you exit. the rest is their circus, their monkeys. You can’t take on the stress of worrying about them more than they worry about you personally, as a human.

          This flex time trick is their way of saying they don’t think of their employees very highly. They’re moving towards “they’re numbers not employees” territory. Don’t give them more than they deserve.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            Yes, we were taken oven by a bigger company the other year. Had a feeling we would just be numbers to them. Now it is being made official.

        6. Rainy*

          Does the company worry enough about inconveniencing you that you should worry so much about whether your departure would inconvenience them?

            1. Rainy*

              If you give them two weeks and wrap up your work, and they still give you a bad reference, they were never going to give you a good reference.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No more than 7 minutes late? This sounds like they’re changing their payroll calculations is why. You can round time to 15 minute increments but they have to be using the standard rounding up/down rules [over 7 minutes is down but otherwise, they have to round up to 15 and they deem you 15 minutes late.]

      It’s a horrible system that’s used by lazy payrolls who don’t want to do the calculations or pay by the minute and an attempt to avoid OT charges.

  114. I edit everything*

    I need a new desk chair. The one I have isn’t old, but I finish the day stiff and sore in all kinds of ways. Anyone have any reasonably priced suggestions? I’m a freelancer working from home, so it’s my own pocket this will be coming from.

    In the past, we’ve bought chairs from used office furniture dealers, but I don’t think there are any where we live now.

    In the meantime, I think I might switch to the old wooden school-teacher chair I picked up at a flea market twenty years ago.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      We just bought an Ardfield Mesh Back Chair at Staples and it’s quite comfy. $129 right now, I think it was on sale for a bit less when we bought it.

    2. Lyudie*

      I have a HON Volt chair I got from Staples a couple of years ago, it has held up well and is comfy. It looks like they start around $120~ at Staples.

    3. Hi there*

      These Staples recommendations sound good. My hubs used about a decade of Amex points to buy a chair from Crate and Barrel. Some of the chairs on their website are gorgeous! (I realize I don’t need a $600 teal velvet chair with bronze legs but wow.)

    4. Amethystmoon*

      I bought one from Office Depot this year with birthday money. It’s black and faux-leather looking, around $120. It was well worth the money and I paid for them to assemble it.

    5. scribblingTiresias*

      Honestly? I bought a $200 Respawn ~Gamer~ chair, and despite the silly appearance and uh… Obvious Target Audience… it’s way, way comfier than any other chair I’ve ever used. It’s even got neck and back support!

    6. Piano Girl*

      We bought our son a gaming” chair from Staples. It was expensive but is very comfy. I bought my husband’s chair from a local, independent stationery shop. He has a bad back, and they customized the fit to him. Well worth the money.

  115. Anon today 1234*

    What websites can I use to find out the overtime law for my state? I am an hourly employee working as an admin. at a private company with over 5000 employees and when I work overtime, I get half my normal hourly rate. I am trying to figure out why without going to HR or accounting. I fear that they will not look kindly if I ask too many questions internally.

    1. Observer*

      Why? Because someone is an idiot and misconfigured the system, either deliberately or by mistake.

      Legally, if you are non-exempt, then they have to pay you time AND a half, rather than the half they are paying you.

      This is a federal law, and no matter what other laws are in play in your locality, this definitely applies to them.

      Your best bet is not to ask “why am I being paid half my normal rate”. Go and say “I noticed that there is a mistake on my paycheck. I’m only getting half of my normal rate for my overtime hours. What do we need to do to fix this?”

      Every Google your state and “overtime” to find any additional state specific rules. Make sure that you link to government web sites.

      Link to Federal rules to follow.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      You get *half* your rate? This sounds like a programming error, not ignorance of the law, and I’d approach it that way. “I noticed I’m only getting .5X my rate instead of 1.5X my rate for overtime, can someone please fix this, and also I need that to be retroactive.”

    3. noahwynn*

      I worked for a company that did this and my paycheck would look like this:
      BASE HOURS: 44 hours (1.0x payrate)
      OVERTIME: 4 hours (0.5x payrate)

      So I was getting paid the full 1.5, it was just different from most companies that will look like this:
      BASE HOURS: 40 hours (1.0x payrate)
      OVERTIME: 4 hours (1.5x payrate)

      If you’re company is really not paying you 1.5x your payrate for overtime though, you need to ask them to fix it.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ask the payroll department, that size of company doesn’t do this in HR or Accounting, they do it through an actual PAYROLL department.

      Don’t be shy about making them explain it to you. But ask them to EXPLAIN it don’t accuse them of doing something wrong. That’s the key.

      It’s a giant business, they have someone who is there to explain this to employees and they can’t just get mad at you, that would be a waste of being mad. Especially that size.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Also look at your state’s Department of Labor, along with the Federal link that is above! They sometimes have different rules. Such as California’s law that it’s over EIGHT HOURS A DAY to be OT other than the standard over 40 hour a week.

        This is just for any other Payroll Law questions that may come up, not the OT one specifically. That will be your best resource. If it’s not on the DOL, there’s usually no law about it. They have to publish laws, they aren’t secret.

    5. Just My Opinion*

      If they have over 5,000 employees, it’s likely that it’s a misunderstanding and they are either paying you for a “fluctuating work week” or similar to what noahwynn said where they have the OT separated out differently than most people are use to seeing. You are getting the 1 of your OT in your “regular hours” line and the .5 in your OT line.

      I’d suggest asking HR/payroll. I’m sure this isn’t the first time they’ve been asked if this is how they are doing it. And believe me, we’ve been asked way more naive questions – Q. How can I stop the Medicare deduction on my check, I’m not over 65 A. you can’t, it’s the tax that everyone must pay :)

    6. Anon today 1234*

      Thank you all for your comments and information. I am going to print my paystub and take a close look to figure out what is exactly going on.

  116. Senioritis Spreadsheet*

    I am a non-exempt employee with an annual “billable hours” requirement. Those hours must be met to be in the raise/bonus pool, and employees who don’t make it may be subject to disciplinary action.

    Longtime employees here get a lot of vacation time, which has always been a nice perk. But since our firm switched from separate ‘vacation’ and ‘medical’ days to a single “PTO” bucket, I have struggled to both stay under the PTO cap and complete my required billable hours. This requires either significant overtime, or working at over 90% efficiency for a sustained period of time.

    My immediate bosses care about the billable hours, and can’t/won’t grasp that billing over 7 hours out of 8 hours is different than billing 8 hours out of 24. They escalated it to HR once, after I built a spreadsheet showing how the actual numbers work. The response boiled down to, “just make it happen”.

    I value the time off more than a possible raise/bonus (and I’m not convinced those are happening for anyone this year).

    Earlier this year, I was told to focus on billing and not take extra PTO. Because of which, I’m up against the cap now with another quarter to go. I need to give the bosses another heads-up, because I’m going to have to start taking time off.

    Any ideas on how to navigate this in the longer term? Getting a new job where I don’t have seniority would solve it, but I like my actual work.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This PTO cap you speak of, is that something the company actually cares that you stay under? Do they care if you just cap out and have to then forego the accrual of more hours for awhile?

      Are you taking time off to continue to keep your PTO levels flowing like you like them? [I understand why you’d do this!]

      I ask because I get this gut feeling that they don’t want you to take PTO and they aren’t going to say it to your face. But if they’re actively making you stay under cap, then that’s another spin the conversation. But yeah my gut says they want you to stop tracking and caring so much about your PTO cap.

      1. Senioritis Spreadsheet*

        Got it in one! They care about billable hours, and not the PTO cap. I do care about vacation time, which is part of my compensation. I’ve always tried to be flexible and responsive to work needs, and would be mostly fine with letting it stack up – but don’t want it to just evaporate.

        (I was fine with letting sick time disappear, and was almost always maxed out of that under the old system. Now I have a minimum PTO level I don’t want to go below, to allow for medical issues.)

        I think you’re completely right that they would like very much if I would stop tracking my PTO and also how many hours I’m at work each day. And that they can’t/won’t say that out loud.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I think that if they’re telling you to not focus on taking PTO, you are well within your right to push back on that. I would say “I understand billable hours are of the utmost importance and I strive to achieve our goals. However PTO is part of my compensation package and it’s important to me to utilize it.” Because they’re really just chipping away at you to get into your brain to get you to stop taking PTO, you shouldn’t stop using it when it’s important to you.

          They need to figure out how to work around it. If they keep pestering you about using your PTO, I would also suggest escalating this to HR or whomever is above who is digging at you. It’s pretty ugly to suggest that you shouldn’t utilize your benefits package. This isn’t much difference than the idiot bosses/administrations out there that will dig at people who use their health insurance more than they think they should or take medical leave when they need to or take maternity leave, etc. They are bullies and they suck.

  117. blepkitty*

    How do you cope with a negative review at work? As in, what do you tell yourself about it to feel better?

    I’m submitting my performance review for the year soon, which will be my first performance review at this job, and I strongly suspect it’s going to come back with a lot of negative feedback, probably with a PIP involved. It’s making me feel crappy and unconfident, and I don’t even have any active job applications out to soften the blow (thanks, covid).

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s your first review? Have you been coached in ways that makes you feel like this is going to be negative? What gives you that idea?

      Sometimes we get into our heads and fear the worse, especially when it’s a first review! In reality, you’re doing FINE and aren’t going to get in any trouble.

      This gives you a chance to get on the same page as your management and to ask them to assist you, before you end up on an actual PIP. If you’re worried about your performance, that’s a good sign more so than when you think you’re rocking it and get sideswiped with “Nope, you failed us!”

      Our minds are much more damaging and mean to us than most other humans can ever even try.

      1. blepkitty*

        The ADA coordinator for the company called me this week after talking to my bosses, who said my work has been unsatisfactory (they wanted to know if I needed accommodations). That fits with my general impression of how they feel about my work, so yeah, I’m pretty sure the review is gonna be bad. Also, my boss has been openly angry with me about how long it takes me to get my work done.

        Even if it’s somehow not bad, I guess I’d like to be prepared for the worst?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          These demons…

          So these idiots can’t come to you, they’re talking to the ADA coordinator before even speaking with you about unsatisfactory work product!? Like they’re covering their asses or something, yuck. I don’t blame you for having these feelings.

          I was just sussing out if there was a reason to have them, since sometimes we are just our own worst critic but then we can also take hints [if we’re lucky to be able to sniff them out]. :(

    2. Colette*

      The first thing to remember is that your success or failure in a particular job is not a commentary on your worth as a person. Almost everyone will do badly in the wrong job.

      And then you look for other jobs that will suit you better – it’s not a great time to do that but if things are as bad as you think you need to get started.

      1. blepkitty*

        Thanks. I know I have worth as a person, I’m just afraid about the future.

        I’ve been looking for other jobs for a few months. Unfortunately, the thing I want that would use my skills while also playing to my strengths is a college job that’s hard to come by in the best of times. It’s probably going to be a while before I find one.

  118. Leirum*

    Looking for business/leadership book recommendations. Our Women’s Leadership ERG is looking to do a book club discussion group next quarter so I have been looking through books I have and they all seem to have been written by white men. I’d really like to hear from and promote researchers and authors of different genders and races as well, so I am asking the commentariat – what are some good business or leadership books that you have read and would recommend? Thanks

    2. Temperance*

      I think “Lean In” is a must-read for any women’s business group. It has really changed my perspective on the working world and owning my own career.

      1. pancakes*

        I’d recommend Kate Losse’s review of it instead, for starters. I also think you should consider reading the UN report on Facebook’s role in facilitating genocide in Myanmar. It’s not a well-run company.

        It’s not specifically about leadership, but Miya Tokumitsu’s Do What You Love: And Other Lies About Success and Happiness is a good read.

  119. Eyeball*

    I’d like to piggyback a little on Himbizz’ question above, but I feel like this is different enough that it ought to be its own thread — Alison, I’m sorry if my judgement is off there!

    My husband and I both work remotely in the tech industry. Our jobs are such that they can be done 100% remotely, and other than the general weirdness of Zoom meetings, the transition seems to have been smooth. (I actually got my job post-COVID, it’s been remote the whole time.) What are the chances, the risks, the possibilities of moving to another state and keeping our jobs? Has anyone done this successfully?

    Possibly relevant specifics: we’re in California, looking at Colorado, I’m a contractor, he’s a regular employee.

    1. Colette*

      Questions to consider:
      – is the company you work for OK with the move? (There are legal issues such as taxes that will mean they need to agree that it’s OK)
      – what are you going to do if people start moving back to the office? There is a disadvantage to being remote when everyone else is in one place; make sure you’ve considered how that will play out.
      – how’s the internet where you’re planning to move? Will you be in a city or rural area?

      1. Filosofickle*

        also:
        — will your employers adjust your salaries for the COL difference, and will the new number work for you? (Starting to see those policies be announced for Bay Area tech companies)

    2. Malarkey01*

      The biggest risk is that they remove telework sometime down the road. I have a job that was full time WFH, except during travel, for over a decade and then out of nowhere the company changed policy that all employees had to come in 1 day per pay period. I was local so decided that twice a month was no big deal for the other fantastic perks, but others who had moved further resigned.

  120. Amy S Gates*

    Yay! I got an interview. So I go to research this company and the reviews are horrible about how badly mid-management is treated (the role I am going for). Pay is meh (again, according to a job hunting website). Any advice on how to broach these issues in the interview? I am middle-aged, with gaps due to child rearing and spouse’s transfers to different states, so I can’t afford to be picky. First interview since January. The person I am interviewing with is a GM with a sales background, so I am not confident that I will be able to sift through what he tells me to find the truth.

    1. BlueBelle*

      When they ask if you have any questions you an say “While doing research on the company I saw some reviews on Glassdoor that weren’t very favorable. I know past employees can some time exaggerate their experience, but would like to hear what you have to say?”
      I would ask that because I am in Talent and Leadership Development and that kind of problem becomes my problem. However, if you want to be less direct you can ask about their management style, their management culture, and their management development or training. If they have none of that- well that is likely why there are the bad reviews.
      Good luck!

    2. Sara(h)*

      There are a ton of good tips about this scattered through the AAM website. If your interviewer is going to be your manager, you could ask, “What is your management style?” If your interviewer will not be your manager, “How would you describe the management style of the person I’ll be reporting to?”
      Also, “Why is the role open, or why did the previous person in this role leave the position?” And, “How would you describe your company culture?”
      You could also talk about what type of culture or management style works best for you before asking a follow-up question; for example, “I work best in a company culture that values work/life balance. I have a strong work ethic and am very dedicated, but I generally like to work 40-45 hours most weeks, and then focus on my family during my off hours. Would you say that this would fit in with the office culture of Ducks Unlimited Inc.?”
      When you say, “the reviews are horrible about how badly mid-management is treated,” it’s unclear what the specifics are, but I would hone in on exactly what is said to be “horrible” and apply the same approach as above to those specific aspects of what the complaints are about.

    3. Goatgirl*

      My two cents: When I could no longer afford to be picky (after my severance ran out), I quit looking at company reviews. I did not want to go into an interview with a negative or doubtful attitude when I really, really need a job of any sort. Perhaps this is a defeatist attitude but beggars cannot be choosers. If the job/company is a mistake, I’ll fix it post-Covid (hopefully).

  121. Me--Blargh!*

    Update from last week’s question re free CompTIA Project+ training through the state career center for workers displaced by COVID:
    (https://www.askamanager.org/2020/09/open-thread-september-11-12-2020.html#comment-3118579)

    I spoke with Buffy, the career center worker regarding some of my concerns, including the following:

    —When does it start? Right away, and it is one-on-one online (she said)

    —What happens if I get a job while I’m in the training? Buffy had to ask her supervisor, Giles, but she reported that if I am enrolled in the program and actively in training, then I would be allowed to finish the training. I was glad to hear that; Vocational Rehabilitation, which closes your case if you find work that exceeds their ridiculously low income cap, booted me out before I could finish the college program through them, and I couldn’t afford to continue it on my own so I had to drop out.

    Buffy told me I had to take a test to qualify but that accommodations would be provided for my severe dyscalculia during both the test (she did not know what was on it) and training. She said they could arrange to have me come to the center for the test and have someone available to help me if needed. They requested a list of accommodations, so I had to come up with those even though they’re task-dependent (I explained this to her) and I have NO idea what I’d need. I tried to include everything I could think of, based on other pre-employment screening I’ve done in the past. The only thing indicator I got was “logic problems.” I mentioned that pattern and number sequence tests are difficult for me.

    Soooooo, now all I have to do is wait until they contact me about the test. Ugh, I hate waiting. I could really use this training to help me get out of the admin pool, and I want to get started so I can still get it even if I do find something. Hopefully things will get moving next week. *fingers crossed*

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      That’s great news, but how are you qualifying as a worker displaced by covid? You weren’t working before the pandemic hit, were you? Are they just not that strict about it? (Which would be awesome on their part!)

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        There was an option for being long-term unemployed, and I explained to her that my job search after moving was impacted by the pandemic.

        It totally was; I started getting interviews again after I moved but lockdown brought that to a screeching halt. I’ve only had two since then.

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      I had to pass Project+ as part of my undergrad degree at WGU. The best way to prep for the test is to take the practice tests until you get at least an 80% pass rate (I went for 90%). You basically need to live and breathe Project+ until you can pass all the practice tests easily. Flash cards will be helpful to get the concepts down. Try some of the free practice quizzes online to get the idea of what the test will be like and what kind of accommodations you think you’ll need.

      There were only a few math problems on my test. I ended up skipping at least one where I had no idea how to calculate it (that’s why I went for a 90% pass rate on the practice tests.) I had two hours to take the test and there were something like 80-100 questions, while at least 10 of them were “test” questions that didn’t count towards the final score, the test taker can’t tell which ones they are.

  122. Former Curator*

    I was laid off on Sunday, two days before my boss’ last day. He said it was due to COVID – like other tiny nonprofits, we’ve been affected by revenue/fundraising loss – but I’ve also heard through the grapevine that there’s enough money, my ex-boss just worried there wouldn’t be enough money for long, so he panicked. Two days before it wouldn’t be his problem anymore.

    Regardless of the reason, I am hurt, and sad, and angry. I was ready to start looking elsewhere in the next few months but I had really wanted to leave on my own terms. Ugh.

    I’ve taken this week to mope and now it’s time to look for other opportunities. I’ve come to terms with leaving my industry, because there just aren’t that many job opportunities in museums at the best of times, but now I need to know: where do I go from here? I have picked up tons of random skills from working in small museums – researching/writing exhibits, collections and preventative conservation, writing grants, managing summer students and interns, volunteer management, member management, database management, social media, web development, rejecting people’s artifact donations nicely – but I also feel as though organizations want someone who’s been specifically trained in these things.

    Is there anyone in the same boat? Any former museum people willing to share where they are now? Any suggestions for fields I could look into? Communications looks interesting, but my introvert heart still wonders if that’s the right move for me.

    1. blepkitty*

      I’m guessing you already know this, but just in case, those are all skills relevant to archivists. A lot of places would want an MLS for that, but some don’t.

      1. Former Curator*

        Thanks for the reminder! Unfortunately, in my area, there are probably fewer archive jobs than museum jobs. I’m also realizing that I want to move away from the collections management part of curating. I love doing research on items and learning how they were used/who used them, but I can only care so much about keeping records. For me, setting up systems is FUN. Following them, on the other hand, is not…

  123. Allison*

    I have a question for recruiters, or anyone who does phone screens.

    At least once a month in this hellish job search, I have someone reach out to me and say they want to chat with me about a role at their company, so we exchange a few messages on when to connect, but then . . . nothing. No confirmation, no call, no word from them ever again. I realize that at least some of the time it has nothing to do with me, the role changed or they realized they already had some solid candidates in the late stages and it didn’t make sense to connect after all, but sometimes I think it’s me, I don’t think I’m being egregiously rude, but maybe I’ve worded something weirdly or the “tone” of one of my messages was off-putting.

    If anyone here has ever ghosted a candidate before getting to the initial phone screen, was it ever because of how they worded their emails to you? Did you take another look at their profile and change your mind? Or was it some weird external factor that was too awkward to explain, so you decided to just stop responding?

    1. voluptuousfire*

      Nope. A friend of mine is a recruitment manager herself looking for a job and she’s had people reach out on LinkedIn to talk to her about a position and the recruiter will just ghost her. It’s not you, it’s just crappy times.

  124. Greg*

    What do people wear to a virtual job interview? If you normally would wear a suit. Do you wear just a white button down shirt? Add a tie? Just a sports jacket?

  125. Rosy Glasses*

    How do you comment to employees (either junior to an individual, or cross-departmental peers) when they bring up issues that you agree with and are aware of?

    Context: I’m a first time manager, having been with the company for 8 years as their second hire. The third hire is now my employee (in a senior role right below me) with terrible communication and responsiveness. It has escalated to the point of a CAP/PIP – but I will often field complaints from other team members that either work closely as a junior member, or a peer across teams about the lack of responsiveness to them or clients, or poor communication. I have also experienced this quite a bit myself, so I feel myself internally agreeing with them – but since he is in leadership, I also feel pulled to not undermine him in this way (although I understand he is undermining himself with these weaknesses).

    If anyone has language around how they would respond, or a different mindset I should consider shifting to when I have these conversations, I would greatly appreciate it!

    1. tab*

      Something along the lines of, “Yes, we are aware of the issues and we’re working on them. I can’t say anything else.”

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Please take a look at this AAM post from June 2019 (https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/how-much-should-i-tell-a-team-whose-boss-is-on-a-performance-plan.html#comments). Also, these commenters (Me, New Wanderer, boo bot, Dust Bunny, BethDH, staceyizme, and Canonical23) offered some insightful observations, and a few comments that you might be able to use in the moment (e.g., “I can promise you that I’m addressing this behind the scenes, and while you might not see that immediately, I agree with you that this is a problem and I’m committed to ensuring this changes.”)

  126. Amelia Shepherd*

    I had a job interview for a public librarian position that says they’re full-time at 36 hours a week (I think I have a decent shot at a second interview). it seems like a good job with a wide variety of job things (programming, collection development, reference, some of which I have more experience in than others).

    my goal is to be able to afford to move out, specifically move to chicago (I don’t drive but could take public transit) but I don’t know if I’d be able to afford that on not-really-full-time (the position is about $18/hour). or am I too locked into the 40 hours = full-time mentality?

    another factor is the night/weekend schedule. I work two part-time jobs now and one of them is two nights a week and every other saturday (usually two a month, maybe three depending, and then I work a weekend a month at my other job) and that’s what this job would be. I am really trying to avoid that in full-time positions. I def don’t mind one night a week or one saturday a month, but I do two nights/week and two saturdays/month now and I don’t want to keep doing that. the job ad did mention night and weekend rotation but nothing specific. am I being unrealistic? I know most librarians work nights and weekends and I am open to that in general.

    thanks! :D

    1. Dust Bunny*

      With the caveat that I don’t live in Chicago, although I do live in another one of the US’ top ten largest cities . . . this sounds tight. Obviously a lot will depend on your needs and expectations, but I would assume that Chicago, like most big cities, is expensive, at least if you want to live “inside the loop”/in the city proper, which is usually where public transport is best. Look up “Chicago cost of living”.

      I’m finding a lot about cost of living online, but I’m not sure how to look up specific areas of a city.

      1. an academic librarian*

        Try googling “rent cafe chicago”. idk how reliable the rent data is, but perhaps a start

    2. an academic librarian*

      Does the 36 hours include breaks? Could be that folks are physically at the library for 40 hours but 4 of those are unpaid breaks.

      librarian jobs without nights & weekends do exist; I did a rotating nights/Saturdays job for a year and explicitly searched for a new one that did not require regular post-5 pm work. But I was a government librarian and now work in academic libraries and there’s generally differences between those and public libraries.

      As you’re doing, I suggest you continue taking stock of what you value in a job, what experience this job could get you that would prepare you for your next job, and how (potentially) taking this job could help you achieve your personal goals of moving out etc. But, as I’m sure you’re already aware, library jobs are competitive, underpaid, and more are being cut due to COVID budget situations. Not that you shouldn’t continue to pursue the field if you want (I really enjoy my job!), but just be aware.

      1. Amelia Shepherd*

        I’ll have to ask about that – if it were 35 hours/week, I could see getting an hour for lunch. but 36 doesn’t add up. if we don’t have an hour for lunch, and were working like 9-4 I don’t know if this would work, I don’t think I could afford to move out…

  127. Wendy Darling*

    Recently on the company chat my manager suggested that we, like many big players in our industry, stop using the terms “blacklist” and “whitelist” and move to the terms “allow list” and “deny list” because those new terms 1. do not imply that white is good and black is bad and 2. are more descriptive of what we do anyway.

    People. Threw. Down. There were 1984 references, communism references, a passing Hitler reference, a huge pile of whataboutism. Apparently “no one” thinks there is a racial connotation to those words (IMPORTANT NOTE: there are no black people at the company…) and if we change them the fascists win.

    I weighed in and said I thought it was a great idea that required minimal effort on our parts and might make people of color more comfortable. Which it turns out was a mistake because someone who massively outranks me and who I depend on to fix issues I encounter in my job decided to respond to my 2-3 sentence post with a 2-page screed about how I was totally wrong.

    The next day I had a problem I needed his help to fix and in order to get him to believe it was an actual problem and not just me being confused, my manager had to escalate both to the guy’s manager and my manager’s manager. So I’m basically bracing for this to be A Problem in the future.

    I am 99% sure that this guy thinks I’m an asshole snowflake SJW (to be fair I don’t have a very rosy view of him either). And on the one hand I’m considering whether this is actually someplace I want to work, but on the other hand I am pretty sure the only difference between here and everywhere else I’ve worked is this company is small enough that rank and file employees are making these decisions by arguing them out in the team chat rather than having them handed down by leadership.

    1. Anonymouse*

      My company recently announced it was changing the terminology around “Master Bedroom” and “Master Bath” to be “Primary Bedroom’ and “Primary Bath” (we work with construction/home designs type of stuff) so far I haven’t seen/heard any backlash. I mostly…don’t care? I don’t think of any connotation other than the biggest bedroom when I hear the term Master Bedroom but nor am I so invested in calling it the that to dig in my heels and make a stink about it. So if somebody else has an issue with it–sure I can change what I use.

      Languages changes and evolves, cultures change and evolve, get over it people.

      1. Save the Hellbender*

        Right? like sure these are tiny things compared to the crushing volume of systemic racism and violence against BIPOC, but changing them … hurts no one. Anyone getting really really upset about it is showing you who they are.

      2. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

        I’ve noticed a lot of plans we receive now say “Owner’s Suite” and “Owner’s Bath.” It’s been happening more frequently in the last couple of years, but pretty much every set of plans I’ve had come across my desk this year say that. I’m also in residential construction.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          I like “Owners” much better than “Primary.” I feel like primary bathroom could be the only bathroom in the house or IDK the bathroom on the first floor with the LR, DR, and kitchen.

          “Owners” clearly conveys the intent to me.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’d love if there were a compiled list of phrases and euphemisms with racist underpinnings along with neutral replacements.

      I had to sub out “Too many chiefs, not enough Indians” and “Too many generals, not enough privates” was all I could come up with.

      2. Anonymouse*

        I like “Too many generals, not enough privates”! though I’ve literally never heard the origin phrase–closest colloquialism I have is “too many cooks in the kitchen”

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          I like “too many cooks in the kitchen.” In my area, it’s more localized as “too many cooks ruin the stew.”

          “Too many cooks…” is about too many people doing things in an uncoordinated manner. “Too many generals…” is more about too many people issuing orders in an uncoordinated manner and not enough plebs doing the work.

          Either way, we have problems, and they are legion…

      3. pencilcase*

        I work in an industry with a major, major problem of too many bosses. We were saying chiefs/Indians but generals/privates is a good swap out, thanks.

  129. ThePear8*

    Looking for some advice on possibly dealing with a bit of jealousy and possibly also advocating for yourself.
    I’ve been interning for the same company now since June, and overall I really love it. COVID really threw them for a loop in the beginning though, I accepted the offer from them back in March right before the world shut down, so initially it was expected it would be an in-person internship. I didn’t learn until much more recently that when COVID happened they had actually also had a hiring freeze (which is now thawing), but since I had already accepted the offer they were thankfully still able to bring me on (which I am extremely grateful for). However, unexpectedly having remote interns for the first time I think meant some things fell through the cracks as they tried to navigate the crazy times. I had to follow up with them a lot in the beginning to actually confirm that my internship was going online, and my start date ended up getting pushed back by a week. I think in-person there’s a more official onboarding process for interns, my original manager had never had interns before and I was the only intern on a very small team so my “orientation” was very informal and more focused on the work I would be doing and the team’s processes than some other important logistics. Like it wasn’t until I posted on here and got some encouragement from you lovely readers that I asked about payment, and turns out my manager had unknowingly had me logging hours in the wrong system – I had to get that fixed with HR (everyone was really great about it though, all of my previous hours were paid right away as soon as it was fixed and it was an honest mistake on my manager’s part – but it’s kind of nuts no one properly told me how to log my hours and get paid).
    Most of my interactions with others in the company were within this small team, which was kind of doing their own thing separate from the company. Then halfway through the summer it was abruptly cancelled, the team was dissolved and my manager left the company, and I was transferred to a different and much bigger team. When I changed teams, my new manager basically found a project for me to do and set me loose to work on it (A “it’s not urgent but we need this and it can be done by one person and you seem to have the skillset for it” project). I’m sure he wasn’t expecting to gain an intern at that time, the whole thing was very sudden.
    All that said, recently the mostly inactive intern slack channel just had a stirring of activity where a couple new interns were welcomed and a more senior person in the company told them they were setting up training for them. I’m pretty sure they’re on a different team that does different work but I couldn’t help but feel jealous with my lack of a solid onboarding/training process. Then during one of the standups this week, a more senior person on my team mentioned a “fun project with the interns” (there are other interns on my team doing different work) and I also couldn’t help but feel a little jealous/left out that my work is rather autonomous and different from the team and I’m not really receiving a lot of traditional guidance or mentorship as an intern.
    Maybe I just need to let it go, and maybe feeling a lack of guidance is just also a symptom of working remotely and having never met these people or been to the office in person, but it still bothers me a bit. Maybe what I’m feeling is also just a lack of feedback and clear expectations, since I’ve pretty much just been on my own working on this project, I haven’t had a lot of clear expectations laid out for me or consistent feedback. I certainly have approached my manager with questions when I’ve been stuck and he’s been good about helping me out in those times, but I’m very independent on this project.
    However, I’m feeling close to finishing this project and hope to get it wrapped up soon. When that happens, I’m thinking it might be okay to let my manager know I’d be more interested in doing certain other types of work perhaps more aligned with the type of work the rest of the team normally does. Maybe that would also be a good opportunity to just ask for more guidance and feedback during my process. Any good advice for just advocating for yourself and expressing interest in certain areas, and expressing a need for more feedback and guidance?

    2. Colette*

      In my experience, telling people what they need to do to get paid is usually something that falls through the cracks. I think it’s because it’s kind of removed from the logistics of getting someone on board (getting accounts set up, getting a computer, finding a place for them to sit, etc.).

      It sounds like you’ve had some good experiences (and you will potentially have 2 managers who can speak to your work when you’re done).

      I understand feeling like you’re missing out on the training/onboarding – but you were on a different team, at a very unusual time. It’s not about you; it’s about the situation.

      If you’re almost done the project, let your manager know that (before you finish!), and offer to sit down and go through it with her. Ask for feedback on the project, take notes of what she says, ask for clarification if necessary, and make the changes. And then mention what you’re interested in doing next.

    3. Just My Opinion*

      You sound understandably frustrated. Depending on how you feel about them, there are a couple things you could try – forgive my lack of polish, but I’m sort of brainstorming
      -Mention to your boss that because of the unusual timing and then being transferred to a new team you didn’t get the training and onboarding some of the other inters have gotten. Ask if there’s anything they think would still benefit you at this point in the game. For instance, if all interns had to meet with certain leaders to understand what they do for the company, you should still be given that opportunity.
      -Tell boss thanks for taking me on and trusting me with this project. Now that I’m wrapping that up, I’d love to work on a team project next if one is available as it will give me the opportunity to get to know more people and understand the company better.
      -Like you said, it’s likely this is nothing personal but more of a side effect of COVID and being reassigned. But remember, your feelings are your feelings, so don’t totally dismiss them. Jump on that slack channel, use some humor, and ask if any of the others want to meet up for a quick virtual coffee/lunch break.

  130. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Does anyone have a decent script to fall back on when someone brings up something that’s outdated “worry” level?

    I have someone who is in the later years, great at their job and we adore them on a personal level as well. However they are often hmmm “victims” of old myths and formerly important advice.

    In this case, they’re worried about lead in paint in dishes…brand new dishes not antique dishes.

    I think I handled it okay but I was interested in other people’s ideas and how they’d tackle it.

    I do NOT subscribe to mockery or shrugging at people who bring their valid [to them] concerns! I just want to source some language to keep it from sounding like I’m brushing them off if possible.

    1. noahwynn*

      For things I’m knowledgable about, I’ll politely correct them and then leave it alone. For something like lead paint in dishes I might say: “Actually I think that is only a problem with antique dishes, as long as it is made in the last 30 years or so they should be safe. We do have paper plates though if you want to use those.” Then I try and move the conversation along to something else.

      If it is not something I’m knoeledgable in, I’ll just do the thing you hate and shrug and move along.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        My response if I don’t know for certain, is to research it from reputable sources of course :)

        But I should mention it’s my job to listen to concerns of the employees, if it’s a colleague I completely am okay with someone shrugging and saying “I’m not familiar with that.” [But I would also ask that people here would point them in my direction, this isn’t always something all companies have though. I know the age old “That’s not what HR is for” response. HR in my world is for employee concerns because I’m not here to make us look like we’re trying to harm our folks with our danger plates ;) etc]

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Oh, I hear you. Lead paint in dishes is a dangerous thing. You’ll be glad to know it’s not an issue any more, though, because etc. etc. etc…”

      I had someone in my life who used to include me in group emails about very similar issues, and I always tried to convey (a) what an awful thing! and (b) aren’t we glad it’s not true! rather than (c) why would you believe this nonsense.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I try to use this similar formula as well. Since it calms someone, they feel heard and then you debunk the rumor, so they are more likely to trust your words. Unlike saying “Nope, that’s not true! stop worrying about it!” instead you notice the feelings they’re experiencing, validate them and then explain there’s no reason to be scared after all.

        Kind of like a child who thinks that the monster is in the room. “Monsters are scary! But that’s just the rocking chair’s shadow. See, not a monster.”

        1. Rainy*

          Oh my god, so…I’m an overexplainer, and the kind of person who always knows the answer to this kind of stuff. Nobody does this to me more than a couple of times.

          Example: my father-in-law once told me as a part of a racist screed that it was easy to come to the US legally as an immigrant, easy to get a work permit, and took “a year or two” to get citizenship. I cut him off with “Oh, no. That’s not true at all! Where did you get that idea?” and then talked for 20 minutes about only the issues I’d experienced as someone who used to be the PI of a grant that sometimes hired foreign workers. He finally left the room and I stopped in midsentence, extremely pleased with myself. And everything I said was true!

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            This is how I react in my personal life if it’s something like that. Most people are like your dad and will slink away, lol. Except my father…my father baits me, he’s where I get my long-wind from, that turkey buzzard. He baits me on workers rights semi-frequently. He tries the “It’s illegal to call you on your day off!” and “Ask for 200,000! that’s how much you’re worth!!!”

    3. Annony*

      I think you can gently correct them by saying something like: “I agree that we need to avoid lead in paint on dishes. This can be a problem with antique dishes but new dishes no longer use lead paint. I assure you that these dishes are safe.” Acknowledge the basis of their concern while telling them why it no longer applies.

    4. Anonymouse*

      Does this person accept straightforward factual information? Like “Plates and the paints or glazes used on them used to have a lot more lead in them, so it can be a concern with antique plates, decorative plates or foreign manufacture, but new plates made in the US must meet the FDA standards* about how much lead leaching is permissible. Just make sure you are using newer (manufactured in the past two decades at least) dishware that is marked for food use (not decorative/ornamental)” And provide a citation or source if you need to.

      If they accept and believe the facts then that is all that is needed. However if they keep circling back around to the same issue even after being given the facts, I’m not sure how to handle that.

      *”The United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) closely monitors trace amounts of lead and cadmium in crockery. Makers must guarantee their products never go above a set safety standard, to be allowed to sell their products in the US. These pieces are categorized as cadmium and lead-safe.”
      https://emersoncreekpottery.com/how-to-tell-if-pottery-is-food-safe/

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Thank you for this!!!

        In our case, they aren’t ones who dig their heels in and debate it. If that’s the case, it’s becomes a “distraction” and “performance” issue. I have another level to escalate it to if someone wants to try to play games or waste time. This is just mainly the base level of “we take your concerns seriously and we hear you.” and then if you don’t want to be heard or debate, you can take that elsewhere, that’s a different kettle of fish.

        And I entertain this kind of stuff because I want them to know that we’re being thoughtful and not throwing caution to the wind. I do this with all “safety” concerns as well. That way if they do notice something that’s actually unsafe [happened more than once!] they don’t shy away because they’ve been batted down so many times before just trying to say “Hey is that safe?”

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Hm. Are they worried due to young children?
      The lead issue seems to be more with highly decorative dishes made prior to 2005 or so, rather than brand new dishes. Or they could look specifically for US-manufactured dishes that say “lead-free,” or buy Glass instead of ceramic dishes. The plainer the dishes (like white) the less chance of lead being in them (the lead coming from mostly from the bright colors).

      I guess I’m not really clear on the worry, given there are options?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        They have heard that if you heat up a dish and it becomes “hot” the dish leeches lead into the food on the plate that you’re heating up in the microwave. In reality if it has lead in it, you shouldn’t even be eating off of it, it’s for decoration purposes only.

        It’s the same idea behind the [true] science in plastic water bottles. Only it leeches toxins into the water, not lead, just the toxins within the plastic compounds.

        This person has also fallen to believe that you can collect can tabs to pay for dialysis treatments as well, that one I leave alone and just collect the damn bottle tabs because it hurts nobody. [They apparently haven’t heard they used to link dementia to drinking out of aluminum cans… =X]

        There’s a lot of myths out there or debunked previous studies that still plague the world. Along with straight up conspiracy theories of course, those are easier to say “I’ve looked into that but there’s no source data to conclude it’s true.”

        1. Policy Wonk*

          I have had success by starting out with sort-of agreement. Yeah, I was concerned about that too, but I read an article that says… a real relief that we don’t have to worry about that any more!

          Note: the can tabs thing became so common where my mom lives that the Ronald McDonald House decided to tap in. They had boxes made that looked like little houses and distributed them in the community for people to put the tabs in, collected the boxes and sold the aluminum to a recycler. Don’t know if they still do it – they never did where I live – but I thought it was a great idea.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Oh yes, I found the information about Ronald McDonald House collecting them, they actually do bring in about six thousand dollars a year with that setup, which isn’t huge but any charity is happy with a few yesterday thousands from something that’s so easy for people to participate in.

            I actually just hung up a container in our main area, we have soda available so everyone just contributes as they think about it, before they throw the can in the recycling bin.

    6. Anono-me*

      Snopes.

      I have a couple of trusting people in my personal life who get ‘interesting’ email alerts from friends. I got got both of them hooked on Snopes. They check the validity any of the scary emails that they get on Snopes and now one of them even surfs Snopes proactively.

    7. fhgwhgads*

      “Lead paint was outlawed here in 1978. These dishes were manufactured well after that, so no need to worry!”
      Said in a cheerful, breezy way. The subtext here is “that’s a valid concern in general but here are specifics why it does not apply to our present situation”.

  131. MissDisplaced*

    Interviewing with a Competitor: I’m late to this unfortunately, but maybe I’ll still get a response over the weekend.

    I recently applied for a similar type of job with a company that is a direct competitor.
    Of course, I would have to be careful showing any work samples that are not already externally published. However, how would you go about answering questions about what you did in your role, knowing that your role is very much related to developing new business lines and therefore mostly not public knowledge? How do you talk about that in an interview and explain without unintentionally divulging your current company plans? Would you actually answer with something to the effect that you cannot discuss your current company’s plans around X or Y?

    I am not a level to have an actual non-compete agreement. But still I would want to be careful about mentioning certain things I’ve done and worked on–even if those things and skills are very relevant to the new job. Curious, because this has never come up for me before. If I have interviewed with competitors, it’s typically been after I left a place. Trying to be prepared should I get a call. I would not want to come across as untrustworthy or showing lack of discretion.

    1. Colette*

      I think you need to walk the line between divulging stuff and being uselessly vague. For example, “I was working on a customer-facing project, and we had problems with another group who was late grooming their llamas. I met with the team lead and we discussed a new way to organize the work so that we could get what we needed on time without conflicting with their other deadlines” – i.e. talk about what you did without talking about specifically what you were working on.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        It’s really hard because some of what I work on is about taking new “Llamas” to the market.
        And “Bring new Llamas to the market” is skill highly desired in the job posting. How can I demonstrate experience bringing my Llamas to market if I shouldn’t/can’t discuss it because not ALL of my Llamas are at the market yet due to delays? I’m not sure I can be so vague with a hiring manager?

  132. Alice*

    There is a lot of discourse in my field that “there is no difference between support staff and professional staff.” Indeed, sometimes people who transitioned from support roles to professional roles say, “I do exactly the same work as I did before” or “I learned everything on the job and nothing from my credentialing process.” If that’s really true, either you were practicing way above your pay grade as a support person (kudos), or you are practicing way under expectations now.
    Of course, yes, as people everyone is worthy and valuable and everyone deserves respect as a person. Some support staff have great professional skills too. But I’m sick of pretending that *everyone* could do my job well today if the “gatekeepers” who hire for experience and training would just get out of the way.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I’m guessing you work in my field (even though we don’t try to guess these things in AAM land). But if its not my field, I would really like to know what it is!!

      I’m a paraprofessional with 2 masters degrees. All professional positions in my workplace are management positions. So I’m not considered a professional but I literally work in a position that in other employers is an entry level professional position. I am afraid I am one of those who says that I don’t know why we need the degree for the job. I was doing this job before the professional masters and I am doing it now. I learned some fun things and interesting things from the degree but not so much anything that helps with the actual job.

      I think anyone with an interest can actually do the job with some basic training. If its the job I think it is, imho the best preparation is doing graduate level papers in any field.

      I recently won an award for a paper I wrote and they assumed a person at my paraprofessional level could not have written the paper, the award announcement went out with the professional designation. I think that was not a good look for my field that they see paraprofessionals that way (my parafrofessional title is two words, they shortened it to the one word professional title, not an easy thing to do by mistake).

      1. Alice*

        Congratulations on the award!
        Hard to go any further in the conversation without mentioning details that I don’t really want to, in this anonymous forum, but clearly your work is really impressive in your (and my?) field.
        If you want to move to an employer where you would have the professional status while doing the professional-level work that you’re already doing, fingers crossed that it works out soon.
        At my company, 3 of 4 leaders in the department started as paraprofessionals at this firm, then moved up. Another 3 of the 10 individual contributors in my department also started as paraprofessionals in the department. These are pretty high rates of conversion/advancement compared with peer departments. So maybe I’m lucky enough to have an organizational culture were the paraprofessionals with the skill and desire to become professionals do, and the career paraprofessionals who stay in that role are people who like what they do as paraprofessionals well enough, but don’t have any urge to move on in the field.

  133. Save the Hellbender*

    So today I emailed a stranger for work named, let’s say, Heathcliff Dinosaur. I addressed the email “Dear Heathcliff”. He opened his response with “my greeting is Mr. Dinosaur.”

    Obviously I’ll call him that going forward, but he’s the one out of tune with social norms, not me, right?

    1. juliebulie*

      I didn’t know dinosaurs could talk!

      I wouldn’t say he’s out of tune, exactly. He probably knows what the norms are, but has a good (but possibly personal) reason for wanting to be called Mr Dino. Maybe it’s to distinguish himself from other Heathcliffs. Maybe his archenemy is also named Heathcliff. Maybe the sound of his first name is like a cheese grater on his ears. Maybe it’s a sort of nickname bestowed on him by his colleagues. Maybe Dinosaur is his wife’s name and he’s showing it off proudly.

      But you definitely weren’t wrong to start off by calling him Heathcliff. And unless you’re going to correspond with him frequently, it’s kinda weird that he made such a point of correcting you.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Yeah. The vast majority of workplaces call each other by first names.
      I’d internally shrug and roll my eyes but ignore it and figure it’s a harmless quirk of Mr. Dinosaur’s.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        The only people I address as Mr. or Ms. Whoever are my clients. I only do that the first couple of times I email them, usually they request that we call them by their first names pretty soon after.

        Mr. Dinosaur sounds…quirky… :/

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’d have written with Dear Mr. Heathcliff Dinosaur in the absence of any other information.

    5. Annony*

      I always err on the side of formality. So emailing a stranger, I would have used Mr. Dinosaur. In future correspondence, I would see how they sign off their email. If it is first name only, I use that. If it is full name, I stick with Mr. Dinosaur.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Because it isn’t about identity. It’s about formality.

        All pronouns have the exact same level of formality. And “Heathcliff Dinosaur” is the same name/identity no matter whether you address them on a first-name or last-name basis.

        This was a rejection of the informal interaction suggested by OP, and an insistence on a more formal footing. Of course Mr. Dinosaur has the right to do that and be respected for their choice. But it is a very chilly response, and OP is reading it correctly as an outdated form which is not common anymore.

    7. LGC*

      A little, but…it’s not a hard and fast rule? Like, I work with a Heathcliff (everyone calls him Mr. Dinosaur, even the president), and our office admin (Sally Stegosaurus) usually gets called “Ms. Sally.” (This isn’t that weird – we sponsor a HS transition program for one of the city schools, so we have some teachers in our building.)

      I think it was a bit direct, but without knowing who he is professionally (whether he’s in an especially formal field, whether he’s a bigwig, or what), I don’t think it’s that out of bounds. Most of my communication is fairly informal, and I’d normally default to “Mr. Dinosaur” initially.

    8. Nita*

      He’s the one who decides what he goes by, but also it does sound funny to open the email with that. I guess he could have gotten his point across just by signing it “Mr. Dinosaur”…

    9. Stishovite*

      If you are from a western culture, and you’re absolutely sure Mr. Dino is as well, maybe.

      But plenty of cultures put the Family name first, so you might think they should be John Doe, but their culture orders it as Doe John.

      (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surname)
      Either way, I’d go with “Dear Heathcliff Dinosaur,” and skip Mr/Mrs in case of misgendering. And then follow their lead.

    10. Stishovite*

      Maybe. If you’re from a western culture, and you are sure they are as well. But plenty of cultures put the Surname first, so where in the US/Europe/etc their name would be presented as John Doe, in their culture it would be Doe John.
      (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surname, the ‘Order of names’ section).

      Even if they are western, putting their Surname first could be important to them for other reasons, and this is just their way of signaling that.

      Or, they could just be very formal.

      I wouldn’t worry about it, and in the future I’d probably open such correspondence with “Dear Heathcliff Dinosaur,” as others have suggested, and skip the Mr/Mrs/Ms altogether to avoid misgendering. Then follow their lead.

    11. Emilitron*

      I’m actually kind of impressed. Even though a lot of people do default to max formality, you’re totally not in the wrong to apply your workplace (industry?) norms onto him. But for him to reply “my greeting is Mr Dinosaur”? That’s actually not bad – he’s now told you what he expects, and based on the fact that he has a script for it I would guess he does so pretty frequently and has found that he prefers to correct people rather than just let it stew and hold it against them indefinitely. So just call him that in future and let life go on.

  134. Glitsy Gus*

    Hey All, I need a bit of a perspective shift and I’m betting you fine people can help me out here.

    I need to ind a new job, I know I do. My job isn’t horrible, but I’m at a dead end and it’s really just not in my best interests to stick around. I’ve been steadily taking on more work and responsibility for over 5 years now, and it’s been made clear that there is really no chance for promotion or pay increase int he future. The department keeps getting “reorganized” and others get moved up, but I only end up moving laterally. That kind of thing.

    My problem is really that this has been a pattern through most of my career. While I’m really frustrated here (and really need a good, long vacation, but that’s another post), overall it doesn’t SUCK. My manager is good, if way too hands off due to being over extended, I get to pretty much set my own schedule and guide my own workflow, that kind of thing, but it’s still time to move on. So I’m having a hard time not falling into the mindset of “well, all my past jobs have been mediocre dead ends, why should I think any new job would be any different? What if it ends up being a toxic crap fest like some of the insane offices I read about here on ATM? Maybe it’s best to just stick with the underpaid but not poverty level, dead end but not horrible devil I know?”

    There are jobs out there in my field, not a glut or anything, but enough that I do have options and any reasonable, non-beat down person would probably be pretty optimistic in my boat. Any advice and/or solid kicks int he pants would be very welcome right now.

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Job searching won’t hurt, no? Take your time, be very selective, ask lots of questions if you get an interview, but looking doesn’t obligate you to take another job. And think of all the comments and stories from AAM about how the right opportunity fell into their lap when they weren’t expecting it!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I personally have always been a proponent of the “You have to move on to move up” philosophy.
      5 years is a fairly normal time to jump for the next step, even if you do like it. It can be hard to move up unless you happen to work for a very large company that would have more divisions and role to move up into.

      You have the advantage of a) being employed and thus can take your time to look and be picky, and b) really think about your next career move and what skills would get your there and beginning to use them in current job if you can. Honestly, this isn’t the best time, but you can start laying the groundwork for some stretch roles now.

  135. juliebulie*

    I’m having an unexpected feeling!

    They sent us home for Covid 6 months ago. Coincidentally, there was a plan to move us to a different building by the end of the year. I was dreading it – I hate that building. I kept thinking it’d be fine with me if I worked from home forever.

    Well, the company decided that we’re going to work from home forever. There is office space that we can use, but it’s only good for about 25% of us at a time so it would all be hotdesking. We have to reserve a place and have a good reason for needing it.

    Here’s what’s weird: I’m totally bummed. Not about my 50-minute-each-way commute vanishing, but about the fact that a lifestyle that I thought was merely on hold is now gone. I keep thinking of the coworkers I liked to see, the restaurants I liked to go to after work, the whole concept of having my own little home-away-from-home. I guess it’s a teensy bit of grief. And also I feel very daunted by the fact that I’m no longer “camping” here; this is my sole workplace. I should arrange my work area for better convenience if I’m working here permanently. This will involve moving heavy stuff around and throwing things away to make room.

    Is anyone else dealing with this situation? I’m surprised by how disoriented I feel.

    1. Colette*

      I have not been told we’re not going back – I don’t think anyone is ready to make that decision yet -but I hear you on missing the stuff around work – restaurants and seeing coworkers in person and getting a different lunch in the cafeteria and being able to walk down the and see people I used to work with.

    2. Datalyst*

      My work is doing the same thing! We’re essential adjacent so I’ve been able to go in a few times (with appropriate precautions) and seen people. I was missing lunch restaurants recently so on a day where I had reason to be in the office, I let a coworker know as she’d been going in weekly too and we grabbed take out and ate lunch 15 ft apart. It was nice to catch up!
      As for work space, my office is being super good about providing us with materials (desks, ergonomic chairs, monitors, etc) now that we’re moving to a 90% remote office. My advice is make your office your new home away from home! And walk away from your workspace when you are done for the day.

      1. juliebulie*

        You’re right; I really need to optimize this room for work. Actually, if I do it right (move all my non-work stuff out of here) I may be able to deduct a home office on my taxes next year.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Well think of it this way. You can still go in right? I mean, schedule like 1-2 days a month in the office with your team to have a f-2-f time. Even if it’s a half day. I think you’ll feel better about it when you see that can be done and you’ll still have meetings and such there.

      And definitely it helps to make your home office a better space. If I hadn’t bought new desks and re-did our office area back in March, I would be so miserable and suffering from a sore back by now.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      This isn’t “camping” any more.. this is your (I hate this phrase) new normal!

      If you are permanently remote now, it’s possible that you won’t be visiting those restaurants anymore. And you prob need to grieve in some way.

      Even if you go back everything will change.

      1. pancakes*

        I agree about letting yourself feel your feelings, but why are those restaurants out of reach forever? Unless they’ve closed? If the commute was workable on a daily basis surely it’s manageable to return to the area for pleasure on a less frequent basis.

    5. Sarra N. Dipity*

      Our office lease is up at the end of next month, and management just told us that we’ve signed a lease/agreement for dedicated space at a nearby WeWork location. And we really have no idea if we will ever be going back in… I have a lot of Feelings about this. I really miss being in the same space as my coworkers, but I also am very concerned about everyone’s health (we have a few immune-compromised or otherwise high-risk folks, and nearly everyone in the office takes public transit when commuting).

      I’ve been doing a lot of grieving with regards to covid, even though I haven’t lost anyone I know and love, because there are parts of my life which are gone, and I don’t know if they’re ever coming back. Work is one, the choir I sang with (for nearly 12 years!) is another, things as simple as going out to dinner on a whim, even. They all have different levels of grief, and I am trying to be gentle with myself, and not try to put myself down for feeling grief when others have suffered even larger losses.

      tl;dr version: you’re not alone, and it’s ok to have the feels.

      1. juliebulie*

        Thanks! You’re right that a lot of things have changed. Maybe that’s why my reaction to this new development caught be off guard. I had been able to take everything else in stride before, but that was when I was still entertaining delusions that we’d go “back to normal” eventually. Now it’s finally sinking in that certain things will just not ever be “normal” again.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would be DONE with a job if it went to this setup, I don’t do “work from home” unless you make me either with Covid or a snow apocalypse etc.

      So I don’t blame you for having feelings. It’s not what many of us even enjoy. Part of work is the social aspect for a large group of us. Or at least just the “change of scenery”.

      I have a studio apartment and even if I set up a real desk, it would be absolutely torture. I don’t have kids, my partner works and we don’t current share a home. It would just be like so…much like a cage to me.

      1. Glitsy Gus*

        Yep, that is exactly my situation now. Sometimes it’s nice, I mean, I can go outside and water my plants or do laundry during lunch, no more stupid bus commute, that kind of thing; but yeah, I’m lonely. My studio is TINY and I get pretty stir crazy by 5pm. I miss going to lunch with a couple of my work friends. I miss going to happy hour every couple months. I even miss in person meetings.

        I could see being 3 days WFH and 2 days ITO, that could possibly work for me, but I don’t know that I would want to be 100% WFH forever. Knowing that this is, at least theoretically, temporary is what is keeping me sane.

  136. Datalyst*

    Does anyone have any tips on negotiating a job description?
    Backstory– a company is trying to recruit me for a newly created position that aligns with my skill set. (They are familiar with my work from consulting). I sent them a draft, they responded with a similar draft of tasks but the language reflected much less responsibility than previously discussed or what will be expected in reality. For example, “Develop training content for new llama groomers” turned to “Provide support to develop training content for new llama groomers.” 90% of the description is to “support” instead of the position being “responsible for.”
    Am I being too sensitive? If not, any tips on approaching this without coming across as rude?
    Thanks!

    1. juliebulie*

      You’re not being sensitive. They’re the ones who edited the job description and specifically wanted to reduce the skill level. From what you say, it sounds like an entry-level position.

      Have they talked to you about salary yet? It sounds as though they might be planning to offer a “support for” salary rather than a “responsible for” salary.

      Or, perhaps they are using your expertise to write the description for an entry-level person and don’t even plan to hire you.

      You could just say, “with the changes you made, this sounds like an entry level position.” And see what they say about that.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree you’re not over sensitive.

      This is them saying that they’re not hiring you to carry the responsibility level that you’re seeking. Instead they want you to “support” the setup and possibly just be more of an “Advisory” role.

      In my personal experience, only when I stepped back did I accept something that was similar to the role they seem to be crafting for you. I was brought in to “support” management as an advisor but I was NOT responsible for the end product, just the person who drafted it, gave input and my knowledge base to draw from. They then would pick it apart and go in whatever direction they chose in the end.

      If you want to be responsible for this, this is not the gig for you! They’re making that pretty clear. I’d have that discussion with them and get on the same page, instead of assuming it.

      This is the time to ask them point blank “you changed the wording to “support” from “responsible for development”, does this mean you want me to do more advising and not have the final decision making in the end? What does support look like in your minds?”

      It could also be that they’re awful at job descriptions and that’s a typical thing, they often suck! But you want to make sure that you all understand the setup.

      [I eventually turned from an advisor to a person responsible for it all along because lol-my-life-story. So that can happen too but I wouldn’t bank on it without having a clear conversation.]

  137. Bookslinger In My Free Time*

    I have a certification exam in a week, and due to a *wonderful* combination of stress, burnout, IBS, and IBD, I am only 2/3 through the study material. I set the test date as late as possible, so rescheduling isn’t an option. Guess it’s a good thing I don’t have cash for farmers market this weekend- I am going to be slogging through warehouse management, transportation, and global logistics considerations. It’s a fascinating subject for me, but my brain has taken a serious beating and I am having serious focusing issues.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Sending good thoughts! I have never had trouble focusing in my life except for a couple of months after my son was born but I am having all kinds of trouble now! So I know what you mean. Be kind to yourself!

      Good luck on the exam!

    2. Picard*

      THIS IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE

      I wouldnt have made it through my CPA without the following:

      Vit D
      Ginseng
      Ginkgo biloba
      Magnesium

      I also like essential oils and found the following helpful:

      for studying
      peppermint
      rosemary

      for relaxing
      lavender

      Good luck! Most important is get a good nights sleep before your test.

  138. Humble Schoolmarm*

    I’m probably too late on this one but here goes. I’m teaching my first genderfluid student, who doesn’t care about pronouns, this year. Since the student doesn’t care, should I default to they?

    1. Disabled in Seattle*

      Opinions on this vary from person to person, but if the student told you that they don’t care about pronouns, I think defaulting to they is still a good way to (A) show that you listen to their coming out and don’t think of them as “basically a girl/boy but with a quirk sometimes” (B) give them a respite from people defaulting to their assigned sex for pronouns and (C) show other students that you support non-cis pronoun usage. If you use another pronoun instead of they at some point, I wouldn’t make a point to correct yourself, because every pronoun is technically “correct” but using they by default is a casual way to show you care.

  139. NeonDreams*

    How do you keep positive when you don’t have the option to leave a job? I’m in customer service and severely burnt out. My coworkers and boss are good. But I am so tired being a customer’s punching bag. Plus my department is forced to take calls for another department on a random basis. Catch is, we get little to no help. So we’re stuck there trying to find an answer with a customer waiting on the line. We’re asked to do the same thing the full timers in that section do without the support.

    We have these email awards that go out every week and the other department is always giving each other kudos. Like, oh, they’re so helpful and nice, etc. It pisses me off because they use all of their resources on their full time people, but not the loan ins. (What my company calls reps who are cross trained).

    I and other coworkers have complained to our management numerous times about this issue but their hands are tied. Our call command center determines who takes calls and they get to rule all. They couldn’t care less.

    Every day I think I can’t take anymore and I keep coming back because I need a job. Plus the pandemic and the election doesn’t help either. (Sigh)

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It’s often said to pretend you are a researcher or anthropologist “studying” the workplace habits of your work. In other words, remove yourself from it and just observe.

      But what is stopping you from looking for another job? It’s true this isn’t the best of times, but you can still spend a little time applying for other jobs. It’s often easier to get hired when you’re employed. It may also make you feel better to know you’re doing something to change what’s making you unhappy, even small steps.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s hard to be in this spot and there’s not a “one size fits all fix”.

      What has helped me during burn out, where I’m in a spot like yours. I don’t hate the people I work with or the company as a whole even, just the situation we’re in and it’s a “nobody wins” situation. I disconnect and don’t take it personally. I do what I can but I don’t do extra, I don’t break my back to carry a burden of others who don’t care [in this case it’s management]. They don’t have the resources? That’s BS, they’re pissing on your leg and telling you it’s raining. They don’t WANT to help you for whatever their reason is [usually they’re lazy and don’t want to make it work and don’t want to upset some other department by having them carry more weight].

      It’s EASY to dump this stuff on a “support” team that’s viewed as a “catch all” kind of setup like customer service can be in some companies. You aren’t just there to be the punching bags of the customers, they like to play that “you’re here to help your INTERNAL customers as well, your colleagues in different departments, look at us, we’re a team!” In theory that’s how it always works, we are a team and we have to bend some to help each other but it goes both ways.

      You have to understand that they suck, they aren’t going to change. But the positives are there. Focus on “I have a job, it’s a pandemic.” and “I get to leave here in 8 hours and ef these people after I hit the clock/door.”

      You WILL get through this and the pandemic and nasty ass election year will end. You will leave this hellhole. You will survive. Even our friend who worked at the Hellmouth, they got out!

      Take care of yourself. Think about yourself. Pamper yourself. You deserve it. You are a good person. You are a hard worker. You deserve better and I’m sorry I can’t personally give you the better, it’s easy to say to someone and it can feel empty hearing it. But it’s true. Burnout is not forever. I promise.

  140. Jenna*

    Do any of you have experience with volunteering for layoff/asking for severance?

    I’ve been planning to leave my job winter for a while to start my own business – and due to a new manager that I am not compatible with, I’m even more confident in that plan.

    My employer is likely to want to lay someone on my team off – but although I suspect my supervisor would like it to be me I don’t think it would be.

    I have an active intermittent FMLA claim and my performance documentation was stellar up until the recent management change – I’d have a *very* winnable lawsuit if they decided to lay me off first.

    So basically, I want to be laid off, I suspect my manager wants to lay me off – but I want it to happen on my terms.

    I do have some nervousness that if I don’t get it right my new boss may try to manufacture reasons to fire me – they started subtly retaliating as soon as they became aware that I was dealing with a health issue, and for what ever reason it’s been very clear since day one that they don’t want to work with me.

    Do any of you have experience with suggesting a lay-off? Do you have thoughts on the feasibility of severance? It is a very large company that is often pretty stingy around compensation, and does lay people off periodically – though we haven’t yet had COVID layoffs that I am aware of

    1. Annony*

      I probably wouldn’t say anything in your situation. If they ask for volunteers and are upfront about what severance would be offered then go for it. But it doesn’t sound like your manager is a safe person to tell you already have one foot out the door. Even if he doesn’t try to fire you, he may simply try to wait you out. Also, depending on how many people they lay off in the first round and what criteria they use to pick the people, you may not have as winnable a case as you think. Given that you don’t even know for sure that someone will be laid off in your department or when that would happen, the risks are just too high unless you have already decided you are quitting soon either way.

      1. Jenna*

        Does any of this change with the fact that I will be quitting soon either way? At the longest I could see working there until February – but my preference would be to be laid if in December, even without severance.

        Having a functional relationship with my manager is one of my non-negotiables in a job, so this particular situation is pretty untenable for me. It also makes the medical situation much harder to manage, and it really doesn’t need to be – with a different manager the fmla likely wouldn’t have been needed at all.

        I am grateful that I’d planned on leaving this winter anyways- it takes a lot of the sting out of the current situation.

    2. Glitsy Gus*

      Do you know if they have given severance in the past when they have done layoffs? That would be a big indicator as to if they are planning to do so now. If there is any way you could try to get more information in that realm without bringing your manager into it, I might try to do that.

      The fact your current manager is already doing subtle retaliation does make this riskier, I’m not going to lie there. If you try to go this route, I would definitely have all your ducks in a row for a retaliation claim if you are at all worried they would try to convert a layoff into a firing out of some kind of spite.

      If you have a really strong relationship with your grandboss, and you think they would be the ones stopping you from being on the layoff list, you may want to check in with them and let them know you would be OK with being let go if it meant someone else could keep their position. It really would depend on the politics in your office, but, yeah, if you do think there is someone other than your manager who would think they were doing you a solid by keeping you off the potential lay off list, it might be better to start out by talking to them.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would speak with an attorney if you can. If you have a winnable lawsuit in the wings, I have to wonder if you OFFERING to be laid off will damage your ability to require severance. Like they have no reason to offer severance to someone if they know that you want to be cut loose and assume they can easier to push you out, saving them severance and unemployment claims.

      When they do lay people off, do they have a history of severance? If they’re stingy like you say, they’re not going to do you any favors :(

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        *It wouldn’t save them the unemployment claim. If they opt to lay you off, they’d have to allow for it since it’s a layoff and not for cause. My brains are a mess today, ignore that part.

    4. BRR*

      I’m also on team probabaly wouldn’t say anything. I also want to push back on a very winnable lawsuit. I think with a covid lay-off situation, it will be hard to prove they fired you as fmla retaliation and I wouldn’t count on that.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I successfully negotiated a layoff once. It can be done, but certain situations tend to apply for a company to entertain the idea. Tricky! But sometimes it’s also a relief.
      Generally, you will have the best luck if the company is facing financial difficulties and is planning to downsize anyway. Second, if you know you’re no longer a good fit there.

      If those things apply, you can be preemptive at volunteering for a layoff, framed as it saving them money and saving someone else’s job. It also allows perhaps an easy turnover as you’ll agree to a set date, training someone, etc. You could even offer to freelance for them if that applies.

      However, given you have a FMLA you have a somewhat more complex situation. I would lay out the advantages and if you think you see the advantage for them to agree to your layoff, I’d present it to them in a calm and forthright manner. Do not mention your future plans though! Only that you are ok with a layoff under terms x and y.

    6. Goatgirl*

      Beware. At my former company, suggesting you were looking elsewhere and/or asking for layoff was grounds for them to withhold severance. If your severance is enough to care about, I would not ask/volunteer.

  141. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

    How to address a situation where I’m a member of a team of 5 and we all have an objective of training and achieving a specific certification – and the others wanted a structured remote course but I just wanted to learn by myself in my own time something that would otherwise be 40 or more hours for others.
    I have to take an exam after it but I wangled it free from my own endeavours.
    I feel like I ought to be given a “free” week off though of course I won’t be !

    1. PollyQ*

      It’s true they probably wouldn’t just give you a week off, but perhaps you could ask for 5 consecutive Fridays, or 10 half-Fridays that would be dedicated to the online course?

    2. Uranus Wars*

      Can you do the studying and take the exam on company time? If that is what your co-workers are doing I don’t see why you couldn’t ask for it; if they are in a structured class they aren’t on vacation right?

  142. Casey*

    Some decent news! Last Saturday I went to a (virtual) career fair at a (virtual) professional conference, and the next day I interviewed (again, virtually) with one of the companies I spoke to. And I killed it. I’m a relatively outgoing person in a very technical/notoriously awkward field, so I usually stand out to interviewers, but this one went spectularly. I had answers for all the behavioral questions she asked, including ones she later told me she included to throw people off, and at the end she called me a “comfortable communicator”. Hopefully I’ll hear back from them soon; I’m a senior in undergrad and it’s a position starting in June so the process might be a little drawn out.

    I also have another interview scheduled for Tuesday morning with a different firm that I’m actually much more excited about, but I’m also a little nervous. I’ll be speaking with one of the technical experts, not an HR person, and I’m a little nervous about getting into a technical conversation. I work best when I have time to think, which won’t be possible in this initial, probably short conversation. Any advice for prepping either material or my confidence?

    1. tab*

      Give yourself time by replying with, “That’s a good question, let me think about it…” Then take a moment and think before you answer. I think as long as you focus on the question, and not on “OMG, I don’t know that!” you’ll be fine. It’s OK to think out loud when you’re answering a tough technical question.

  143. Thankful for AAM*

    Me: Hello, my name is thankful and I work in a dysfunctional workplace.
    AAM community: welcome thankful!
    Me: today my workplace imploded a bit more than usual and I followed the AAM steps and I came out unscathed. Or maybe not but I feel unscathed.

    I have no idea how to tell y’all without blowing my anonymity but it was something else!

    Here are the AAM skills I used:
    -Its not personal
    -Channel your inner Michael Jackson popcorn gif, detach and get out the popcorn
    -If you don’t tell the manager, how will they know, they are not mind readers (very tied to the next one)
    -I’m not the spokesperson for y’all and beware the coworkers who want you to do the dirty work for them
    -It does not impact my work product so its not a problem for me
    -And of course, your manager sucks and is not going to change.

    I am sure there were more but I have a new one to offer you – the pencil case. Stay with me.

    One coworker stocks the public facing desk we all share with those pens that have rubber tips and double for use with smart phones. Another coworker rips off all the rubber tips even after it got escalated to the dept head complete with all department emails and after the pen user politely asked the rubber ripper about it. And now all the pencils go missing everyday!

    So someone came up with the idea of stocking a pencil case and tucking it in a spot the suspect won’t use but the person who needs the pens can access.

    Thats the pencil case. Approach each day like you need your own pencil case, you need to bring your own supplies but the supplies are metaphorical, they are the things you need to get safely through the day in your workplace.

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        There is a whole backstory. We think maybe it was a passive aggressive attempt to “get back at” the team lead (who is truly awful) or an OCD compulsion thing.

        Its not even the saddest or most dysfunctional thing about this workplace.

  144. Email Confirmations*

    If I was an employee being a manager or leading a team project, and one of my team members or subordinates came to my office in person that tell me some important/unusual/startling news, should I ask the employee to send me an email afterwards to confirm and state what we have discussed so far? If so, how should I ask?

    The information the employee confide to me can either be a sudden resignation, an employee bullying issue, someone doing something unethical issue, etc.

    I think I might want written evidence of what has been discussed in my office in case I need to take action later.

    1. PersistentCat*

      I wouldn’t necessarily ask them to send you an email, but instead send them one summarizing the conversation and requesting confirmation that you have the details correct & any follow up requests you may have.

    2. valentine*

      Email confirmations are usually to mitigate the power imbalance. With a resignation or performance issues, reference the conversation in writing at any time. For bullying/ethics, you don’t want to do this because your employee will then worry about who all you’re going to forward it to. Maybe you have an assistant who reads your emails, or your superiors do, and there’s an ocean between your POV of a conversation and Employee’s writing on the subject that gets passed around, possibly to the person they reported! Consider and respect their reasons for telling you both in person and in private.

  145. PersistentCat*

    Double the post, double the fun!
    What title would you expect a person to have if they had no direct reports, but reported directly to executive staff (coo/ceo/etc), and single handedly was responsible for the execution of internal audits, evaluating nonconformances & product complaints, assigning nonconformance, capa, and product complaint investigation responsibilities, reviewing/approving investigations & procedures (plus writing their own), leading annual management review meetings, and performing trend analysis for all relevant systems? All of this within a very regulated industry.

    Quality Manager, Quality Systems Specialist, Quality Assurance Specialist, Quality Engineer, Quality Coordinator? Other?

    1. Uranus Wars*

      Not knowing the dynamic of your org, I think Manager sounds mid-level and specialist sounds like an IC on a team of quality assurance specialists that report to a systems manager.

      Sounds the this description is high-level, just with no direct reports.

      Director of Quality Systems and Assurance
      Lead Executive Quality Systems
      Lead Coordinator Quality Systems

      1. PersistentCat*

        Thank you for your feedback! To be honest, this org is not very fond of manager or director titles, so I’ve been trying to think outside the box for a title that somehow conveys that this 1 person is carrying the majority of the QMS, so applicants aren’t expecting a huge amount of guidance from someone above them or any help with staying on top of all of this, since the ability to delegate is pretty much nil. Lead Executive, Lead Coordinator, or Lead Administrator is an excellent direction!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Definitely manager at a minimum if you are reporting up to VP or C-suite level and have 5-10 years experience, even if you are not managing people. If you ARE managing reports, it should definitely be director. In a lot of fields, “specialist” denotes a more junior person who might report to a director or manager, or maybe they are a specialist in one aspect but all of the many aspects. Coordinator or Assistant is below the specialist.

      That said, this sounds something like:
      Product Quality Manager
      Quality Systems and Assurance Manager/Director
      Director of Product Quality
      Quality Systems Manager
      Quality Assurance Manager/Director
      Manager, Quality Services
      Director, Quality Measurement (might be slightly more analytics focused)

  146. Bofa on the Sofa*

    I’m wondering if this is normal for a school (Special Ed dept) or if it’s a sign of dysfunction & I should run away like my hair is on fire. I’m not a teacher but a professional support staff (a type of therapist). Year one I was hired for 8 hours a week. Year 2 there was a lot of talk about increasing my hours, including formal meetings before school started, but they did not formally confirm my hours until Noon on the first day of work. Noon. (Despite my calls & e-mails.) The meetings mentioned enough hours so I’d get benefits, but of course, when it became official, I was offered just below the threshold for benefits. Year 3: I applied for a full-time position as an internal applicant. I didn’t get that job, but I verbally was offerred a similar position with a different student population. HR sends me not one, but 2 form rejection letters, even though I was offered a job. Later, an administrator told a group of staff an applicant “burned a bridge” by applying for a position & then not accepting it because the salary was too low. This year (year 3), I didn’t receive my contract at the expected time. HR said they were waiting to confirm that funding is secured for my position. My building admin says funding was secure for my position back in April. So it seems no one bothered to tell HR that funding was secure. I finally receive my contract 2 weeks into the school year. Which normally wouldn’t be a cause for concern for me, but with the application/ 2 rejection letters, it was concerning.
    Pay & benefits are better than other jobs I’ve found locally in my field, but all of this seems full of red flags. What does this blog say, is this normal for a large school district or dysfunctional?

  147. "Normal" in a Corporate World?*

    I was recently told that my job will remain the same, but the area in which I work has now changed – say, previously I oversaw painting teapots, and now I will oversee painting chairs. Similar work, yet still different, and with new things to learn, new contacts, etc. I was not given a choice in this matter. I don’t care – I’ve been working with teapots for years, and this change comes as a recognition of some good, hard work I’ve done, and challenges I’ve overcome this year.

    However, a family member – who has never worked in the for-profit world and only ever worked for non-profits or governments – thinks a change in job without my input is strange. The whole of my work life (20 years) has been at a large corporation, so I don’t know if this is normal.

    So, tell me – is it? I’m curious more than anything.

  148. NonniJo*

    With the realization that this is probably buried, I just needed to yell into the void about it.

    I was selected to interview for a job that, on the surface, seems like a great fit. It’s with the government (much higher paid and more substantially benefited than the nonprofits I’m used to…), in my field, and in my hometown so I could be closer to my parents as they grow older.

    I live a 16-hour drive away. An in-person interview was mandatory, in a high-COVID state. I would have to quarantine for 2 weeks from my current job. By requiring a zoom interview, they removed me from the applicant pool.

    It’s such hot bullshirt, I can’t even….ugh.

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