open thread – September 25-26, 2020

by Alison Green on September 25, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Kramerica Industries*

    I work for a micromanager who seems to have picked up the intensity during the pandemic. Now that we’re all WFH, she’s insisting that procedures need to be written as if we were unable to communicate with each other or if “the whole team was gone one day”. This means that every procedure my team writes is now painfully detailed. Normally, if I was writing a guide to scooping ice cream, I would say “Use spoon to scoop ice cream. Scoop it into a bowl.” But now I would need to write something like:

    1. Push spoon into the tub, 5 mm away from the edge.
    2. Glide the spoon across the ice cream, 5 mm deep.
    3. Lift the spoon to complete the scoop.

    These procedures are meant for my team’s processes and we’re all experienced mid-level workers. We tried bringing up that these details make the procedures more complicated and confusing and that we’re competent enough to fill in the blanks ourselves/use common sense. But our micromanager is insisting that everyone MUST follow the EXACT same thing, even if there are multiple ways of doing something that would achieve the same results. I’m really struggling with writing these procedures because my brain just doesn’t work in that amount of detail. I naturally try to filter out steps that I don’t think are necessary, but the feedback that I’m getting is that my usual style of writing is insufficient. Does anyone have any tips on how to overcome this?

    1. blepkitty*

      No tips, only sympathy. My manager is exactly like this, both in wanting insanely detailed guidelines for everything and in insisting everything must do their jobs in exactly the same way. It drives me batty.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I am a lawyer who works with banks on procedures — so they have to be REALLY detailed and specific. However, there are some things that we have decided are core competencies of the job, so we don’t have to explain them in procedures (for example, we don’t have to explain how to sign in to the correct computer program), or that can be done in any order/manner and it will be okay (gather the following materials for the folder). Where we spend our energy being specific is when doing it differently might cause a problem. In your example, if it really is necessary to use a spoon and not a scoop, then we need to specify “use a spoon” and if a mistake is foreseeable, we would add a note “Note: Do no use a scoop” Maybe if you could get your boss to focus on those areas where doing it differently could cause problems???

    3. Teapot Librarian*

      I’ve found that I need to be this level of specific for people on my team (I recently sent a set of written instructions, complete with screenshots, and one of the people on my team didn’t realize that the first step was to open the URL that I had put on the page because I didn’t explicitly say “open a browser on your computer. Enter this URL in the URL bar: ____”); I wonder if your micromanager is responding to someone on your team who needs this level of detail but you don’t realize it? (Or she’s just a micromanager.)

      1. Mama Bear*

        Do you have a tech writer or similar on your team? I ask b/c this is the kind of SOP/instruction guide that they might write on a regular basis. Would it help to give someone who writes instructions anyway the overview and let them help fill in the details? They may also have more clout to push back on “we don’t’ really need to specify down to the mm” to the boss. OR they can clarify to you why that measurement is really required.

        Micromanagement is usually about fear. Is your boss afraid of everyone getting hit by a bus and losing all this knowledge? Would it be as helpful/more helpful to cross train the staff?

        1. Amaranth*

          This. I used to test software and write up documentation requiring down-to-the-keystroke instructions and ‘what if’ options. One thing that helped me was to write out the outline of steps as bullet points then go back and add details as though I were explaining the process to a new user over the phone. And screencaps. Lots of screencaps.

          It sounds like the boss might know that layoffs are coming up, or is just planning for the worst. I’d personally look for other signs that the company might not be stable.

      2. Kramerica Industries*

        I think I’ve accepted that we either need this level of detail because we have 0 room for error, or she’s just a micromanager and isn’t going to change. The only thing I can do is change my own habits then, but I just hit a huge mental block when trying to get this granular because I personally don’t consume information like this. I end up feeling overwhelmed and confused pretty quickly.

        1. OtterB*

          Can you write them in bullet points at the level of granularity you prefer, then expand the details under each bullet? That might help the reader as well as you keep sight of the overview without getting lost in the details.

          1. Me*

            I was going to say something similar. Start by writing at your level of detail. Then go back and add the additional requested detail. Sometimes it helps to start with a framework and then ask how can I be more specific.

            1. Mama Bear*

              Also, ask for a peer review from someone who doesn’t routinely do this thing. Can they follow it? Is it confusing? If they feel well-informed (and/or can do a dummy task to verify) then you have reassurance that it’s detailed enough. You can also take notes for yourself when you do the task – just bullet points of everything. Try “rubber duck debugging”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

        2. JustaTech*

          As someone who has been taking the detail *out* of some of the protocols I’ve been asked to use in the last month, I completely understand.

          Can you try framing it in your head as though you were explaining the procedure to a space alien or a time traveler? Or at least someone in a completely different department, who has never seen any of this stuff before? Or even just imagine writing down every single thing you would say *and do* when you are training a new person.

          It is painful, and especially once you understand the process then page after page of “click on this” “select that” is far more of a hinderance than a help, but for the first time around it can be helpful. And sometimes the act of writing it all out can help identify places for improvement.

      3. Burned-Out Nonprofit Millennial*

        I’m a database admin. I have to put this level of detail, as well as screenshots, in all instructions I create because the majority of users I work with need it. I once had to explain to someone how to move their laptop from one room to another by unplugging it.

        1. Another Burned Out Non-Profit Millennial*

          How to move their laptop! LMAO! I also work in data at a nonprofit, officially I plan events (all aspects, marketing, logistics, fundraising, technical website needs, etc…), but get sucked into data as we haven’t had a database manager for over a year due to budgets cuts.

          I’ve also had to do screenshots, but really if people can’t follow them I’ve gotten to the point where I just go “sorry, guess we’ll need to hire a database manager if you need more details.” And it seems the people that can’t follow them at my org are the higher up’s that have the power to hire.

          My favorite comment: What’s the difference between the constituent codes “do not solicit” and “do not email”? Aren’t they the same?

          This came from the woman that picked the codes, lol.

          1. gyrfalcon*

            Do not solicit: do not send any requests for money, by any means, whether email, US mail, phone, carrier pigeon, etc.

            Do not email: do not send emails, but other methods of communication are ok, including requests for money.

            At least, that’s what they mean to me. If they are supposed to mean the same thing, that’s a bad choice. And if people are using them willy-nilly, that’s bad too.

          2. tiasp*

            We had a do not solicit and a do not phone option. Vast majority of donors just didn’t want to be phoned but were willing to stay on the mailing list.

        2. Grapey*

          +1. Everyone thinks a process is easy enough to “fill in the blanks” until Fergus thought that blank meant null and Lucinda thought it meant zero and they each rolled their eyes at thinking they needed to add that much detail.

    4. Not trying to be rude, just good at it*

      I had a similar predicament in my first job out of high school. Think of separating customers invoices (key punch cards) and checks, putting them in packs of 100, rubber banding the checks and placing 1000 cards in a box.

      My manager decided that there were additional steps that were needed and that everybody involved in this process must do it exactly the same. It caused a 50% increase in processing time and a huge backlog. Upper management got involved, much yelling behind closed doors and a Vice President sitting next to me on public transit on the way home from work asking me what the heck is going on in your department.

      It taught me at an early age to separate good from bad managers.

    5. TKR*

      Oh man I do not envy you! Even though I am a technical writer, this sounds so painful. The first step to good documentation is to understand your audience and what they already know. If the people reading what you write are all mid-level, they are not going to read every word.
      One thing that might help you and the people reading though – put one sentence at the top explaining the task, and then another sentence that identifies the goal. Something like:

      These instructions are about scooping ice cream from a tub and into a bowl using a spoon. The goal is to get 4 identical scoops into the bowl so someone can eat them.

      That way the person reading it has a clear understanding of that needs to be done, and can make sure whatever approach they used accomplishes the right thing.

      As far as writing something that you know a lot about – this is hard. I always see if my writing passes the “mom” test. If I read things to my mom, would she understand how to do something? Where would she ask questions or get confused? That can help you figure out if you’re filtering out too much information. You can also try running through what you write exactly – maybe while jamming out to the music or something so you can just follow the steps and not fill in any gaps.

      I don’t envy your situation though! Good luck!

      1. :)*

        I use the Mom test too! Sometimes I actually do read stuff to her.

        +1 to clearly identifying the outcomes you’re trying to achieve at the top of the instructions.

    6. Matilda Jefferies*

      I don’t think this is the hill I would choose to die on, although obviously it depends on a lot of other context that I don’t have. 100% agree that it’s annoying and frustrating, though!

      If you do choose to push back, you could tell her how much time the writing is taking away from your other priorities. “I expect it will take X amount of time to write the scooping procedure next week, which means I will only have time for 15 scoops instead of my usual 30. Would you rather I focus on the scooping, or the procedure, for the next little while?”

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      In my experience people’s behaviour doesn’t really change suddenly without a specific prompt (internal or external) so here are some explanations I could think of about why she’s suddenly asking for this:

      – as a result of some kind of incident (maybe outside of your team or maybe not!) due to someone not following established procedures like this
      – as a requirement from her own management, or on her own initiative, in response to the pandemic in a kind of “disaster preparedness” / business continuity plan
      – (less likely, but something to consider) that ultimately these tasks are being codified and standardised as part of an eventual effort towards outsourcing or “de-skilling” the mid-level positions. In other words, are your team the intended ultimate readers?

      When I’ve had these sort of requests before, I ended up with “two sets of processes”, The official one which was painful to write (and probably to read) and the actual, looser one which continued to be followed.

      Does micromanager have a way to know whether every step has been followed in detail (e.g. whether the spoon was inserted at 5mm away from the edge, rather than 10mm, in your example)? If not, I’d suggest you take the approach above – if so, though, I think your only options are to push back with logic (which it sounds like you have tried) or grit your teeth and follow it.

      I’ve found in some situations that a ‘checklist’ type of approach can actually be beneficial, if it’s a possibility that I could miss a step due to getting distracted with something. Depends on what the actual SOPs are though.

      (This is what I dislike about sat-nav instructions, too. I put in my destination that is, say, 200 miles away and get painstakingly detailed directions to turn right at the end of my street, turn left, continue straight ahead at the traffic lights etc etc etc… when the real instruction is “get to the M1 motorway and continue to junction 20”. Of course, that is (or should be!) the difference between humans and automatons like Satnav Jane!)

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        Ugh, yes. It’s a bit OT for this but I found the overly detailed sat nav instructions really distracting and confusing when I was doing my driving test a few years ago.

    8. Sparrow*

      I’ve been in a similar position. I was told (in not so many words) that it needed to be detailed enough that our least competent coworkers would have no excuse for screwing anything up. They shouldn’t have been touching this process anyway, but I digress. Anyway, what I ended up doing was writing up the process the way I tended to think about it with bigger picture steps, and then I turned each of those steps into a subheading under which I added the detailed instructions. So something like:
      Step 1: Get a spoon.
      a. Enter the kitchen and turn 90 degrees to the right.
      b. Starting on your left foot, walk forward six feet.
      c. Turn 90 degrees to the left to face a yellow drawer.
      d. Using your right hand, pull the drawer out 8″.
      e. Keeping your right hand on the drawer pull, use your left index finger and thumb to remove a teaspoon from the top of the first stack.
      f. Push the drawer shut with your right hand.

      Step 2: Get a bowl. [etc]

      I found it much easier to focus on identifying all the tiny detailed microsteps when I broke it down and was only thinking about one discrete step at a time. I would still have to go back and break it down further by looking at each bullet point individually and asking myself whether there were any details that could be added (and there usually were). But drilling down to smaller and smaller pieces was the key for me. Plus! The subheadings that represented my actual thought process could function as a more user-friendly list that was better for everyday use without actually creating an illicit second list the boss would be mad about.

    9. need a new screen name and have no imagination*

      I had to do this a number of years ago when it was discovered that no two people in a particular department did the same tasks the same way. Which in some cases meant that people were not completing all the elements of a task, so people who should have been able to move on to the next stage of a project had to come back and ask them to do what hadn’t been done. In some cases, the task was being completed, but in an awkward, time-consuming, too-many-steps sort of way that reflected how a newer hire had been trained to do the task by a longer-serving employee. No more than two or three people had been trained to perform the tasks the same way, and there were no written procedures or instructions, only collective memory.

      I had pointed this out a few times but it didn’t matter to anyone until a new department head was hired. That person was horrified by the lack of documentation and the inconsistency in training.

      At new boss’s request, I wrote something like ten procedures in the next few months. I rather enjoyed it, since I’ve an analytical mind.

      1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

        This is what my last job was last. And, sadly my was was more time consuming in some ways *but* I was actually cleaning the machines, not wiping them down with cold water. And the “flavoured pretzels” turned out nicer and was finished more efficiently then when my coworkers made tgem

        I’m so glad to be able to call it my “last job” (I wrote instructions, people were supposed follow them. But they were also trained by my coworkers who don’t care as much about food safety)

  2. beancat*

    Happy Friday!

    I’m wondering if I’m misunderstanding salaried work. There are times when I’ll stay an hour late because my supervisor wants to go over something half an hour before close and it takes time, or come in an hour early at their request – which is fine!

    But then there have been a few occasions where I have to leave half an hour early for an appointment and they remind me to subtract it from my PTO. I know it’s legal, but I just feel it’s not entirely in the spirit of salaried work as I understood it to be.

    Maybe I’m wrong though! What have other folks experienced?

    (The job is otherwise great overall and I’m feeling a lot more confident about it as time goes on!)

      1. merp*

        This is me too, although all my salaried jobs have been government, which I suspect is the reason why. I get functionally none of the flexibility that salaried folks talk about on this site.

        2. blepkitty*

          I see that you are also a librarian, and I wonder if part if it is library culture? I worked for one library where the library leadership ignored the actual university policy that we shouldn’t be nickel-and-dimed for our leave, resulting in my having to take 4 hours of sick leave every time I had a medical appointment because I couldn’t just take 1 hour (per university HR rules) and I couldn’t be absent from campus during working hours without taking leave (per my boss). Nor were we allowed to come in late if we were required to stay on campus late for meetings.

          1. merp*

            Oh geez, that is awful! My libraries haven’t been quite that bad (I do not understand requiring PTO in 4 hour increments, ugh) but I have noticed that the library directors I’ve worked for seem to believe in butts-in-seats and no flexibility.

        1. blepkitty*

          Yes. I had one workplace where it was accepted culture to just go home if you attended a workshop at another location and would only have 1/2 hour left to work by the time you got back to your office, but that’s been it. Otherwise, the “good” workplaces have allowed me to make up the half hour by coming in early or leaving late the next day. The bad workplace didn’t even allow that.

          1. Uranus Wars*

            I had the same experience at one of my employers. We could deduct down to the 15 minute and if my lunch ran over, we had to leave early, got stuck in traffic, etc. we had to deduct 15 minutes. This was academia and the number of unpaid weekends/travel was absurd (no comp time either) and never evened out.

      3. Magneto*

        Same here. Every salaried job I’ve had has been like this. I think it is done that way often in salaried workplaces.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          It’s never been done that way in any salaried position I’ve ever held, and I’ve had these positions in insurance, transportation, and now software.

          1. Workerbee*

            That’s how companies who treat their staff as adults operate. I found this out when I switched jobs to the one I’m in now, which expects accounting for and making up time during the same week or you’ll have to take PTO.

    2. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Following! Also was confused with this when I was salaried back in the States, and HR couldn’t exactly explain it XD

      1. sleepy black cat*

        Absolutely off-topic, but love your username! Would be slightly impractical, maybe, but love the idea haha.

              1. beancat*

                Put the letter i in the sideways angle brackets (above the comma and period) to start them, and then put a forward slash and an i in the same brackets to end the italics! :)

              2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

                You put words in italics by typing [i] and [/i] in front of, and after, the word or words you want to italicize, except that instead of brackets you use the pointy things (on a standard keyboard it’s SHIFT+[comma] and SHIFT+[period]; YMMV on a mobile keyboard.) I can’t type the pointy things here because if I did, it would either activate the code or they just won’t show up (I’ve tried it in the past).

                So if you want to italicize “Me want food,” you would type [i]Me want food[/i] (again, the brackets are just here for show, you need the pointy things) and it’ll come out as Me want food.

              1. schnauzerfan*

                It’s obvious to me that I’ve lost all of my childhood (spoken only) and college German.(reading)

                Sad.

    3. Arc’teryx*

      It sounds against the spirit of salaried work in my experience. My salaried position lets me leave early, stay late- basically come and go as I please as long as my work gets done and I’m available during working hours. I know my experience is on the lenient side, but requiring PTO for leaving 30 min early when you stay late some other days doesn’t seem “fair”. I can’t speak to the legality, though!

      1. SansaStark*

        That’s how my association structures it, too. I went from an hourly position to a salaried and one of the biggest “perks” of the promotion is that you don’t need to account for every hour anymore. We’re only required to take PTO if you’re going to be gone longer than 3 hours, I think.

    4. Future Former Librarian*

      I think this depends a lot on your organization and your supervisor. I’m government, so even our salaried workers have to submit a time card every pay period. I’ve had supervisors who think every moment of time spent out of the office needs to be deducted from PTO, and I’ve had supervisors who say as long as your weekly hours add up to 40, they don’t really care how you get there. As dare as I know, there’s no real legal definition for when salaried/non-exempt people are required to use PTO and when they’re not.

      1. schnauzerfan*

        Academic Librarian here.
        We have 3 salaried employees and 5 hourly. We’ve been at both ends of the butts in seats issue, depends on the director. The current university policy is “salaried employees are expected to average 40 hours a week” We are not permitted to take less than a full 8 hours leave, either sick or annual. We schedule desk coverage time (maybe 1-2 hours, maybe 4 or 5) We are expected to cover assigned desk time, and to be available when needed outside of our scheduled 8 hours. So yeah. “it’s complicated”
        In practice, that means making sure that you fellow salaried employees know when you need coverage, making sure that at least 1 senior staff person is available, while being discrete so the hourly people don’t feel downtrodden (not that they should because they are NEVER asked or even allowed to exceed 40 hours.) We have (or used to have) a 10 week long Sunday film series event that required about 3-4 hours every Sunday during film series season (Jan-March) for all the salaried staff, no easy way to get that much time back, so some days I’ll arrive a little late, take a long lunch, and leave early. Others? Well, some days end up being 12 hours long because someone called out, or we have an event or… Now that we are working at least partially from home? I think I’ll wrap up for the day soon. Call it a week!

    5. a username*

      This is workplace culture I think, your understanding aligns with my office. But for a lot of places there’s an instinctual line of “okay to fudge your hours” that tip into “need to use PTO” – your work place’s line seems to be pretty low.

    6. 867-5309*

      It’s not in the spirit of the work but some managers/organizations are like that.

      You could ask your boss… Just say, “I want to make sure I’m understand how I should be approaching my PTO. Sometimes I need to stay an hour late or come in early, which is absolutely no problem! Since I’m salaried, I thought that same flexibility is applied when I need to leave 30 minutes early here or there but it’s been suggested I use PTO for that time. I am double checking to see if I really need to be using PTO in those instances?”

      1. trudrlka*

        Yep, I would definitely at least try to point out how being salaried+flexible with hours only ever works in her favor & it would be nice if that flexibility worked both ways. Maybe ask if she’d be willing to grant you the same flexibility she expects of you on a trial basis.

        1. KateM*

          Ask if you could add the time stayed late to your PTO the same way leaving half an hour earlier subtracts from it. :)

      2. beancat*

        I’m still pretty new at a pretty small office, and I’m thankful I’ve been able to leave at all given that. It’s something I’m keeping an eye on, and if this continues I’d like to bring it up to them. Thank you for the verbiage!

      3. Important Moi*

        You could also say something like:

        “When I stay an extra hour, what do I with that time? Can I bank it for “future” use (like when I need to leave 30 minutes early)?” Say it like of course the most rational thing to due is net one against the other. [Big smile.] Supervisor is all about being fair to the company. This is fair to the company.

        I think it is important to directly lay out providing additional working hours vs. deducting PTO. 867-5309 seems nicer than me.

      4. Double A*

        I feel like I would ask about comp time. If they’re requiring you to use PTO every time you leave a little early, then you should be given comp time when you have to stay late.

        Nickeling and diming works both ways.

        2. Ashley*

          I thought comp time wasn’t allowed outside of the same pay period unless it was a government organization.

    7. JustMyImagination*

      My last couple of salaried jobs have only let you use PTO in 4-hour increments. So if you needed an hour here and there for appointments, you were just expected to work out the hours with your manager by working a little early/late other days of that week so you would hit 40 hours.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I had an awful oldjob where the HR person decided it was easier for them to only allow PTO to be taken in full day increments. It made zero sense – we had so little PTO to begin with, and now if we had a 1-2 hour appointment we had to take the whole day?? Managers were pissed too, because being understaffed and overworked it made no sense to insist people take unnecessary time out of the office. So we just stopped logging small PTO time. We were working a lot of unpaid overtime already, if they couldn’t be bothered to type .25 versus 1, we couldn’t be bothered to fill out an entire form just to go to the dentist.

        HR wasn’t happy but they were also too lazy to do anything about it. At least until the micromanage-y higher ups got mad about not being able to nickel and dime our PTO in their favor and made HR go through the strenuous effort of editing “PTO Hours Taken: 8” to “PTO Hours Taken: 2”.

        Man I do NOT miss that place at all.

      2. Anonymouse*

        This is how my current job is but we are not a coverage-needed department. In fact, I worked late on Monday and Wednesday this week trying to solve some time-sensitive issues and so will be leaving early today because I hit 40 hours half-way through the day. If there were a major issue that still needed attention, I would go over 40 and if I did my boss would let me take some unofficial comp time next week.

    8. Plant Therapist*

      My experience has been that salaried work = in general, you work approximately 40 hrs per week, from approximately 9-5, but sometimes you leave early or stay late depending on your schedule and the job requirements. However, I do work in a field that is known for flexibility (also everyone works more than 40 hrs per week, so). My partner works in a different field and has also had this experience though – he will usually stay late one day if he knows he’ll need to leave early the next. Personally if I were you and I knew my boss wasn’t okay with me leaving early, it would make me very reluctant to ever stay late. Do others at your job ever need to leave early, and do they take PTO when they do? You might have a conversation with your supervisor about what flexibility looks like to them and their expectations.

    9. Strictly Speaking*

      I’d say that subtracting from PTO for leaving half an hour early is not in the spirit of salaried work unless you are in a customer-facing or similarly coverage-sensitive role where it really matters whether you are available to promptly handle a call/email that comes up before “closing time” for your site.

      If you’re not in a position that requires immediate response for things such that someone else would need to step in to cover your work lest it wait until the next day, it’s a fair argument that your exact start/end times should not be policed.

      1. beancat*

        Hmm…I’m a manager at a small medical office, but I do have an assistant who can handle the meat of the work for an hour if I have to leave a little early on a non-patient day. I don’t do this on patient days for that reason – on those days it’s very important to be there during patient hours – so I didn’t know how to feel about my consideration seemingly not being met.

    10. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      It really is an adhoc thing that each workplace sets differently. Some places I’ve worked have been like “just go to your appointment and make sure you are not behind on any of your tasks”. One manager we had in the past, said to make up all time missed by the end of that same week, so we’d have a minimum of 40 hours logged. I’ll be honest, I have not worked at a place that even allowed (much less forced people to do it) to take PTO in half-hour increments. But I guess they exist. And yeah anywhere I worked, regardless of their policy towards being out of office for appointments, every workplace has always been quite happy to have people work extra time, evenings/weekends etc. Like the author of Dilbert said in one of his comics (before he became an unbearable ass and I stopped reading them), “your job description says you are exempt. This means exempt from having a life.”

    11. D3*

      Salaried work + power imbalance = this exact situation, where companies get free “extra” labor but are rigid and inflexible. It’s all about milking out every possible bit they can from people.

    12. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      It’s against the spirit of a salaried worker, in my opinion. Assuming you’re salaried exempt. There are some who are salaried non exempt.

      My workplace’s handbook says non exempt people can take PTO to the minute, although we generally use in half hour increments. No one is going to fill in an hour PTO, but if you have to leave suddenly, that’s when the minutes come in handy. It also says that exempt employees can only use PTO in 8 hour (full day) increments. So if I scoot out early for the doctor, I still get paid my full day without using PTO. In practice, if I just work an hour on a day I’m supposed to be off, I just use the 8 hour PTO.

    13. I'm that person*

      That’s wrong. Salaried does not mean forced unpaid overtime. It means that you get the same amount per pay period regardless of how many hours you work.

      I have worked multiple salaried jobs and none of them forced me to take PTO when I left an hour early for a doctor’s appointment. Or to pick up a sick child. Or even if I finished my work for the day and wanted to leave early.

    14. Here I am*

      Our HR person has told us that we are not to use PTO unless it’s for 4 or more hours at a time. Their expectation is that, over time, things average out to 40 hours (or realistically, a bit more than that for most). Before this HR person, things were very much the other way, and it was really frustrating – if you’re going to make me account for all of my time off, then you need to account for all the extra time you require! That really is what being salaried means!

    15. NLMC*

      I have worked places that do this and it’s so irritating. My current boss does not make me use PTO for time away from the office unless it’s a significant part of the day. I do the same for my salaried employees.

    16. Meh*

      If they’re going to nickel and dime you, you should do the same for them. No more coming in early and staying in late if they’re not going to extend the same courtesy to you to allow you to leave early. Of course you won’t be able to avoid it all the time, but certainly never volunteer for extra time since you already have seen how they will “reward” your extra effort. This is just them trying to take advantage of you and not how the system is supposed to work. My workplace does understand and lets me take off early/come in late if I’ve pulled extra hours for them.

      1. mreasy*

        Yes, exactly this. When a job where I both spent weekend and after hours time at events/travel and generally got into the office at least an hour early every day charged me for 1/4 day PTO when I had to leave early for a doctor’s appointment, it felt like a slap in the face. I left for a number of reasons but if they hadn’t done that it may have been a harder decision to go.

      2. beancat*

        I hear that – it’s hard when I’m approached at 3:30 to review things that’ll take an hour and quitting time is 4, but I don’t think I’ll strain to work through lunch when it’s not urgent.

    17. N*

      I’m not an expert but I think that it depends on whether or not you are exempt or non-exempt. If you are exempt, you are not allowed overtime, therefore you should not be working over 40 hours a week. But if you are non-exempt, you can get overtime and should request it accordingly when your boss asks you to come in early or stay late. If you’re exempt and not getting paid for these extra hours, I’m pretty sure that is illegal!!

      2. Coalea*

        Nope, that’s not correct. I’m exempt and have been for the past 20 years. I regularly work >40 hours but do not get paid overtime when I do so. It’s not illegal.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Right. Presumably, salaried exempt employees are paid more than hourly non-exempt workers to compensate them upfront for the times where working over 40 hours is expected. Since overtime doesn’t apply to salaried exempt employees, there’s nothing illegal about it. It does suck, however, if the salaried exempt employee is paid on par with an hourly non-exempt employee, which some companies will do to keep costs down.

    18. kittymommy*

      Like others, probably organization dependent. I’m government (so always a little weird) and 30 minutes would not be coded PTO. I’d claim it for a half a day but that’s probably the smallest amount my organization would ask for.

    19. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yuck. We log comp time for worked hours over, so that when you leave 30 minutes early later, it’s all washing out.

      But if we’re talking about half hour here and half hour there, then often they don’t bank comp time in some places. But they shouldn’t be nickle and diming, that’s frustrating. It’s certainly done and an office culture thing.

    20. Quinalla*

      As other have said, it varies from place to place. Most places I’ve worked at or knew people who worked at them were more lenient – if you got your minimum 40 hours in sometime during the week they didn’t care as long as work was being done. Also, if one person is working 50 hours weeks all the time and everyone else is 40-45, it was expected that everyone try to share that load a bit too.

      My boss now if I am taking say a day off and maybe worked 35 hours during the week will tell me to only take 5 hours PTO when normally I would have been inclined to take 8. Some places are even more lenient that don’t track time (we do since we bill time directly sometimes and we like to see how profitable each project is), its basically get your work done, don’t leave your coworkers in a lurch, generally be here during core hours.

      I think it is crappy if people won’t even let you flex 30 minutes or even a couple hours personally. I’d try to get it clarified too and then if they won’t let you flex I too would be reluctant to stay late. You are salaried exempt, right?

      1. beancat*

        As far as I know I am salaried exempt. Yesterday I did have to say “I need to leave right at closing time for an appointment”…but had to say it again when I almost got pulled into something.

        I honestly do really love the job. I just need to calibrate my expectations and get some language under my belt for when I’m ready to approach the topic.

    22. Anonymous Educator*

      That hasn’t been my experience in salaried exempt work. If I leave early or stay late, a day is a day. I had one workplace tell me that literally if I came into work for 10 minutes and then left, that was a full day of work, and I wouldn’t have to take a day off. That said, my manager would never have let me come in for only 10 minutes.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I had a company tell me that during the interview process (coming in at all = full day of work), as it was one of their perks. Never heard of that previously, but I think it’s a good policy – certainly better than docking people from fixed PTO when they otherwise make up the time.

        My current company has a slightly different take: we have effectively unlimited partial PTO (regular full-day PTO is limited) which is intended for these kinds of short duration events/appointments/whatever that cause you to miss part of a day. However, in some cases management will pressure people to flex their time to compensate rather than take the time off as paid, and that is discouraged by the union because it means we’re not using a benefit we have. But it’s only a benefit because the short-duration PTO is unlimited and not eating into the limited PTO amount.

    23. Dumpster Fire*

      If they’re going to nickel-and-dime you on leaving early or arriving late, I’d absolutely do the same when arriving early or staying late because of something your supervisor needs. For example, “Hey, since this meeting is going to take an extra half hour this afternoon, I’m going to apply that to the time I miss because I need to leave early on Wednesday for an appointment, OK?” (Even if you DON’T have an appointment on Wednesday – just leave a half hour early!) If they don’t let you do that, at least they’ll have to say it out loud and then they might just realize how ridiculous it is.

    24. theletter*

      Salaried means that you are paid for an assumed 40 hours per week, even when you take time off for vacation/illness. When you take your two week dream vacation, you still get paid for those weeks.

      Hourly means you are paid for the time you spend working. If you punch out early, you are not paid for that half hour.

      Everything else comes out to office culture. You might be a flex-time office or team where you really can come and go as you please, assuming your work is complete. Some offices are more rigid.

      What is a little weird here is taking PTO time for appointments. In most offices, you don’t have to use PTO/sicktime for any planned appointments.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Salaried hours do vary. Some say 40 hours per week. Some are 35. Some are 50.

        Just want to make sure it’s clear that expected time is also up for debate and up for management to decide. I know in government it’s what 37.5? Because they’re expecting you to take lunches. Whereas others actually expect 40hrs worked with classic unpaid lunch periods if you’re lucky to get a lunch.

        1. Uranus Wars*

          Yes, I’ve worked all of the below.

          A. 40 hours – unpaid lunch break (8-5)
          B. 40 hours – paid lunch break (9-5)
          C. 37.5 hours – 30 min paid/30 min unpaid lunch (8:30-5)
          D. 45 hours – unpaid lunch break (7-5)
          E. Work whenever the hell you want just don’t miss meetings, be generally available between 10-3 and get the job done. (830/9ish-430/5ish)

    25. Academic Anon for this*

      Ack, my sympathies. All the downsides of salaried work and none of the upsides. However, I could be spoiled where I am, since no one in particular keeps track of me. I can set my own schedule and often work more than 40 hours/week, but if someone was standing behind me with a time clock, I wouldn’t.

      There was the one time that the Dean of Libraries proposed for us to use a time clock, but it was derided and dropped.

      For example, I am working in the office three days this week with late classes each day. So for those days, I worked between 11-12 hours. For the other two days, I was teleworking and didn’t feel guilty for cooking in the middle of the day.

      Does your organization have comp time? What happens if you work on a holiday? Do you get some sort of hours credit or just a pat on the head?

      1. beancat*

        We are thankfully closed for holidays at least! And we’re such a small business I suspect a lot of things that apply in bigger offices won’t apply to us.

    26. Victoria*

      I would unexpectedly be unable to stay late or come in early due to other commitments.

      I’m sorry if you aren’t being reasonable and giving me flexibility I’m not giving you any back.

    27. KayDeeAye*

      I have always worked at places that were – or so I thought – pretty nitpicky on PTO issues, but at NONE of them would I be expected to work overtime for free but then have to record PTO for leaving a half hour or even an hour early. That is just really unfair.

      The rule ought to be that if you’re nitpicky about letting people leave early, you have to be nitpicky about making them work extra, too. You can’t have one without the other.

      But if the job and your supervisor are otherwise great, I agree that you ought to be able to talk to someone about it. I like 867-5309’s ““I want to make sure I understand how I should be approaching my PTO” phrasing a lot.

  3. Professor Plum*

    Considering a bike desk . . . does anyone have one? Pros? Cons? Features to pay attention to? Thanks for any input.

    Available on Amazon: the one from Flexispot looks better ergonomically for a short person over the one by Exerpeutic Exer Work 1000. Links to follow in a comment.

    3. ten four*

      I am using my Flexispot deskbike RIGHT NOW! Can recommend! It came fully assembled, which I appreciate, and it’s super easy to use right out of the box. I’m a casual user – I wanted a way to integrate a little movement/exercise into my workdays rather than a Serious Cyclist who is looking to build or maintain muscle. It does have several tension settings though, so it might work for a more serious cyclist also.

      I’m about 5’6, and my 5’11 husband also uses it in the evening when the weather is crummy. It works great for both of us with just basic seat adjustment. I’ve got the full Flexispot standing desk set up, so I can adjust my desk up to use it and still work.

      I really don’t have any negatives about it! I’ve only had it for a month or so, and I am very excited to have a desk bike, particularly with winter looming.

      1. Professor Plum*

        Thank you–all good to hear! I’m shorter than that, but this sounds very promising. I’m currently moderating 4-5 hour zoom workshops three times a month, and really like the idea of being active during those workshops.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I just have a plain old set of pedals on the floor under my regular desk, which works okay if you have the knee clearance. It takes some adjustment to get used to typing while pedaling, especially if you’re at all enthusiastic about your pedaling :)

      1. LunaLena*

        I have one of those, and I use it a lot when I’m video gaming or watching TV. I can’t use it when I’m working because of the nature of my work, but it’s a great way to get some exercise in during long cutscenes. :)

      2. JustaTech*

        I’ve also got some cheap pedals, but with the shape of my desk I can only use them while reading, not typing. Which is great on days like today when I need to read a 350 page user manual.
        I’ve also used it for long meetings when I don’t need to take notes.

        (How cheap is mine? It’s so cheap it doesn’t have a manufacturer label on it, the distance measurer died years ago, it can get *really* hot, and after years of use it left a fine film of grease on the carpet. But it was maybe $50 and I’ve had it for 6+ years.)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I paid $25 for mine, it never even had a distance measurer :) but yeah, it does get awfully hot after a half hour of semi-aggressive pedaling.

        2. LunaLena*

          Mine doesn’t even have a distance meter, or a way to adjust the resistance! It’s literally just a pair of pedals on a floor mount. But it was also $4 from a thrift store so I’m okay with that, haha.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have a recumbent exerpeutic Gold 525XLR that we use for TV & gaming. It has one huge drawback: the pedals *can* go in reverse even though they *should not* — if they do they damage something. This may be why we’ve shredded the internal (not serviceable) belts more than once. On the plus side, they have a good warranty and ours covered an entirely new belt unit. When it shredded a second time we didn’t replace it until our daughter was old enough to not play with the belts, and it’s lasted longer. For those of you with plus-size family members, it’s also rated to 400 lbs.
      We also have an upright laptop desk bike — Flexispot “Deskcise Pro 2018”. It’s sized for laptop only – only one of us has patience to use a mouse with it. We get a little extra space setting it up next to the bar in the family room.

    7. ThursdaysGeek*

      I have a DeskCycle, and I like it. I’m short, so I can rest my feet on it when I’m not cycling (most of the time), and it’s very stable when I am cycling. Plus, I still have the regular chair and setup – if I want to be lazy, it’s still an option.

    8. Fact & Fiction*

      I regularly use my DeskCycle (https://deskcycle.com/) and I love it! I ordered it when working from home became the norm and I couldn’t teach my Zumba classes for several months. It obviously wasn’t quite the same as doing Zumba and Pilates classes, but I love being able to get some activity in while working, writing, or video gaming. :)

    9. OtterB*

      The Flexispot one was recommended to me by someone I’ve known for years online. I ordered it. It’s sitting in the box in my upstairs hall waiting for me to finish clearing out the spot I intend to put it and then assemble it.

      I don’t plan to use it for a work desk. My plan is to use it for social media and personal internet surfing as (a) I’d like to cut down on those a bit, and (b) I’m not getting enough exercise. So I hope that doing those on the bike will help. I’ll let you know.

  4. Future Former Librarian*

    I was planning to post this today anyway, but after the discussion in yesterday’s thread I thjnk there’s a much larger group of people who are also feeling what I’m feeling than I was previously aware of.

    I’ve been a librarian for ~10 years. I held several other library jobs before that, starting when I was a teenager.

    I can’t be in this field anymore. I don’t know of any library systems that have handled COVID well, and I’m so tired of the way government employers consistently put the needs of their staff at the lowest possible priority level.

    The problem is this is the only field I’ve ever worked in and I don’t even know what other jobs exist that I might be qualified for. Are there any former or otherwise non-traditional librarians here who can share ideas of what kinds of jobs I should start applying for?

    1. Archie Goodwin*

      I’ve mentioned this before in similar context, but maybe look at records management?

      I’ve been in the field for four years, now. Personally, I only have a BA right now, but I’ve worked with a lot of people with MLS degrees, and they’re a good fit in the role. (And I’m looking at going for one myself in a year or two, most likely.) It uses a lot of the same techniques that librarianship does, and it seems to be an unheralded field, for whatever reason.

      If you’re in the DC area there are a lot of government/contract jobs available. In the private sector, I’m not sure, but it’s something to look into.

      1. hillary*

        There’s some private record management, although not as much. Companies with substantial real estate usually have a private library for that and some have one inside the marketing team. My experience is most other records management is done by the team that owns the records – for instance my team does our own contract management.

        There are software tools for specifically for product management that might be a possible employer. It’s usually referred to as product lifecycle management. It involves managing drawings, bills of materials, etc. Most companies buy a tool versus trying to do it in house.

    2. Student Affairs Sally*

      You could look into libraries in higher education (or even K-12). I think you’d probably encounter *some* of the same issues, but when you’re providing services for a specific population rather than EVERYONE in a community, I think the issues are less likely. But I can’t say with any certainty – I worked in the university library as an undergrad, but that’s my only experience in libraries.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        I was also going to jump in with a suggestion of some other type of organization instead of public libraries. Otherwise, depending on your experience and preferred role within the library structure, there’s UX, working for a vendor, and lots more that I’m blanking on right now. Good luck!!

          2. lemon*

            User Experience Design/Research. Depending on the role, it could entail doing things like usability testing, surveys, ethnographic studies, card sorting, heuristic evaluations, interviews, etc.

        2. This is Jeopardy!*

          You could look at UX/HCI/Information Architecture. I did that for 20 years when I realized during my practicum that I was not cut out for public librarianship. Got the MLS, framed it, and put it on my resume. It’s very easy to sell “I know how to organize information for humans” in a lot of different IT-related contexts.

      2. Mama Bear*

        Many companies and agencies have a library or document repository. Perhaps something like that? Or go into research?

      3. Concerned Academic Librarian*

        Academic libraries are failing at handling Covid-19 as badly or worse than the public ones. “The students aren’t wearing masks in the library but it’s okay because they know each other.”

        I’m a lifer and academia has a lot of advantages, but we still deal with a lot of the garbage that Future Former Librarian is talking about.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          I’m so sorry that’s happening to you. My uni is handling it extremely well. Masks are required and if students aren’t wearing them, we can call the student affairs office. Our after hours study area was shut down for lack of mask wearing when cameras were reviewed and now it’s being regularly checked after hours by campus safety. So, while I agree a lot of places are messing this up, I wanted to make sure people know some aren’t.

          1. Concerned Academic Librarian*

            Most of my friends at other colleges and universities have been having experiences similar to mine.

            I am relieved to hear not everyone is doing badly at it!

          2. schnauzerfan*

            Yeah. Our academic library is doing OKish. We have 3 floors. We’ve moved staff into solo offices (former study rooms) and closed the stacks to the public. Materials are requested and delivered curbside or to offices. Students are discouraged from congregating in the library and are required to wear masks while in the building.

    3. Toodie*

      I do not know exactly what library degrees cover, but I’m a tech writer, and I think you might have some value in this field. A lot of tech writers come to this with backgrounds in English or journalism or tech, but I think a background in understanding how to architect information–build a knowledge base–would be invaluable.

      1. a username*

        I’m a technical services librarian and would love to get into technical writing! I’m obligated to work full time as a librarian for a few more years but I thought finding part time work might help ease a potential career change down the line. Any suggestions on how to get started?

    4. The New Normal*

      Have you considered a school system rather than a public library system? Our librarians on my 7-12 campus are miracle workers. And in the elementary schools, the librarians are so critical.

      1. Future Former Librarian*

        Unfortunately, my state requires school librarians to have a teaching certificate and I don’t have one. And a lot of the school districts here are down to one librarian per district, if they even have a librarian at all. The on-campus library support is from techs and media specialists, and I can’t survive on that big a salary dip.

        1. Anne of Green Gables*

          If the teaching licensure is the only thing standing in your way from switching to K-12, you may be able to start at a K-12 media specialist with your MLIS with the understanding that you have X amount of time to get your teaching certification. I was laid off from public libraries in 2010 and thought schools were the best way to stay in libraries and work with kids. (I was a children’s librarian.) I could be hired as a K-12 media specialist with my MLIS and had 3 years to complete the coursework and exams to get my teaching certification. I contacted 2 universities in my state with MLIS programs to find out what courses I needed just for the teaching certification. They needed my MLIS transcripts to answer me, each told me how many classes, and I selected the program that required 4 classes. I know other librarians who have also done this.

          In my case, I took 2 of the 4 needed classes before stopping. I spent 4 months as an elementary school media specialist and hated it. But some folks do love it.

    5. a username*

      The missing data point we’d need is what type of librarian are you? For example, I’m a cataloger & metadata specialist – I could side step into private sector or government data/database management, analyst, technical writer, etc. But a children’s librarian is going to have a totally different skillset and would need different advice.

      1. Future Former Librarian*

        You’re right! I forgot that context.

        I’m a public librarian, focusing on customer assistance and programming (for all age levels). I have virtually no cataloging experience.

        1. MCL*

          Is this the type of work that you want to continue doing once you’ve left libraries? Engaging with the public, planning and executing programs, etc?

        3. a username*

          The first thing that comes to mind if you hope to continue that type of work is donor relations or fundraising for nonprofits / museums – I know, not known to be bastions of healthy work environments here on AAM but not all of them suck! And the high people skill interfacing / program planning would be really beneficial. Also, the pay might be equivalent to what you have now.

        4. Coenobita*

          My mom is a former librarian who works in college admissions, which has a lot of similar customer-servicey aspects. She started off working at a professional organization as an in-house librarian, then worked in reference (in public systems and at a community college) before taking time off to raise us kids. Now she interviews 17-year-olds and reads their college applications! The pay isn’t great but it’s interesting, you can leave your work at work, and being college staff has some nice perks. I think she’s been doing it for 10 years now.

        5. Academic Anon for this*

          Come on over to academia! Even if you are not willing to be public facing (totally understandable right now), at least at my university library there are increasing opportunities in creating maker spaces, data labs and entrepreneurship areas. With your event programming background, it could be a good fit. The current downside is the hiring freeze most universities have, but we were able to get permission from the Provost to hire a entrepreneurship lab head.

          And if the archives or records management thing sounded interesting, most large universities will have both an archives area and a records management area. Our records management area has half of a warehouse, since there is so much generated by the university. For archives, the rule of thumb is that historians drink, librarians eat and archivist do both!

    6. JustMyImagination*

      I work at a larger biotech company. We have a library and two librarians on staff to help with research, maintaining a small physical library space, and maintaining all our online memberships. Maybe there are some companies like that around where you live.

      1. OrangeTabby*

        Document control in biotech/Pharma is another option, although probably less interesting than your suggestion!

    7. MCL*

      I work for a university in the department that produces masters-degreed librarians. I have a MLS myself. I do not work as a librarian, but I work as a program manager in my department, overseeing professional development programs, so I pivoted quite a bit from my original aim of going into archives and special collections. I know several people with my educational background who have transitioned into that kind of work – administration/program management in higher ed. I have several colleagues and classmates who have moved into IT support, UX, instructional design, working for library vendors, grant writing, records management, digital asset management, prospect research (fundraising).
      It kind of depends on what flavor of job you want. Are you currently someone who plans and executes programs, does a lot of access services, works on the reference desk (or do you wear all the hats)? What type of work calls to you?

    8. Southern Academic*

      I have a friend who moved into medical librarianship, from a fairly traditional college/academic library position. She gets the benefits of librarian work but is located closer to where she wants to be and has more job stability.

    9. ursula*

      I wonder about niche education/information organizations. I work for a non-profit that does public legal education and information, and we would consider a library background highly relevant for a candidate, assuming other skills and interests were a fit. I know analogous services exist for medical/health info and a range of technical fields. Most would be non-government.

      1. Mimmy*

        I had thought about doing similar work years ago (I used to work in an I&R role at a non-profit and loved the idea of working with community resources). I did look into getting an MLIS with the intention of either this kind of library work or academic library work, but a librarian I talked with at a nearby university talked me out of it :(

    10. merp*

      I’m a librarian who’s been idly looking for similar reasons. Few options I’ve been thinking about: education tech companies, library vendor companies, records management, tech writing, marketing (say, content writer/researcher), corporate researcher/librarian roles (kind of rare to see, in my experience, but definitely relevant), or legal or business researchers. Depends on the type of library work you’ve done, like another commenter said, but might be a few things that interest you there!

    11. higheredrefugee*

      Depending on the kind of work you’ve been doing or want to do, think about professional associations. They need people to track information on changing regs and laws, sometimes help their lobbyists, other people to oversee accreditation efforts, others handle member education, others do event planning, edit and publish various pieces from newsletters to tech guides to social media posts, etc. Look at some of the work even done by the ALA!

      Depending on your interests, what about advocacy groups – think American Cancer Society to ACLU to animal protection to gun rights and everything in between? Lots of need for organizing and tracking info.

      Also, how about being a state system or court librarian? Those gigs are thin on the ground but you never know.

      Good luck! It is daunting, but I hope this helps you see your skillet more broadly.

      2. Coenobita*

        I was coming here to say this! I’ve worked for or with consulting firms, advocacy groups, and professional associations and they’ve all have corporate librarians.

    12. Lord Peter Wimsey*

      Another former librarian here sharing my experience FWIW. I switched from public to corporate librarianship. (Now, this was 15 years ago, back when corporate libraries were more of a ‘thing’ — the one I worked at has since been eliminated. Not sure if the market for corporate librarianship right now is any better than public, but check out Special Libraries Association for info on that.) The corporate library experiences and skills were a great stepping stone for my current role in corporate strategy/ intelligence. If you’re interested in that field, check the Strategic and Competitive Intelligence Professionals (SCIP) organization for more info. Best of luck!

    13. Cendol*

      Would corporate or law librarianship be on the table?

      Caveat: I went straight into this field after library school and didn’t try to cross over from public librarianship, and I suspect I only got the job because I was (a) lucky and (b) willing to move and to work evenings and weekends. I now work in a corporate research department. We do a lot of quick turnaround projects and resource management for internal clients, so perhaps similar to working the reference desk, except there’s HR if the clientele misbehaves (not that they ever have). I often joke that I Google stuff for a living, but it is true, and I love my job (in large part because my boss is awesome, but also because it pays well, and because every day I learn something new).

      Some non-academic law librarian job postings ask for a JD, but it’s really not necessary, and I think most reasonable hiring managers recognize this. (As a member of professional staff, you’re not allowed to give legal advice anyway!) I’ll post some links in a follow-up comment about librarians who have made the switch.

      2. Disguised as me*

        I do business and corporate research in a BigLaw law firm library. I do have an MLS but not a JD. Like you, we are always learning new things and brainstorming outside-of-the-box ways of coming up with hidden info and precedents, which is one of the best things about the job. The hours, pace and pressure can be pretty intense, so it’s not for everyone.

          1. Disguised as me*

            You could look into knowledge management, competitive intelligence and business development roles. A JD and some practice experience can be very useful.

          2. Sandan Librarian*

            I work as a law librarian (with MLS) for a state law library and one of my colleagues has a JD but not an MLS. This person seems to be doing a splendid job without having an MLS.

    14. OperaArt*

      I work at a large science/engineering research organization. We have a large library. Would you consider a lateral move into a place like that? Weekdays only. And if it’s government or government-adjacent, the benefits are usually pretty good.

    15. LKW*

      Consulting firms have internal research groups that research industry trends, market research, analysis of vendors, etc as well as general information on people in key positions.

      Marketing firms likely have similar needs.

      Your MLS provides you valuable research skills. Your work experience provides you valuable customer service skills.

    16. aubrey*

      I have my MLS and do database management kind of stuff for a software startup. I’ve found that my experience conceptualizing and organizing huge amounts of data at a broad and granular level transfers well to this. Content management or information management are related terms. I’ve found that tech doesn’t consider this to be ‘special library’ work, or know what a library degree is, so I need to explain that my focus is systems and data and they see tons of value in it.

      Think about what your strengths are and the type of work you want to do – helping users navigate complex systems? organizing things? are you technical, or people-focused? Then you can research types of jobs that involve those skills, but might not use the word “library”

    17. Dust Bunny*

      Records management, archives, non-public library. I’m not an MLIS but I’m an archives assistant in a medical school library.

    18. Liz*

      I’m a librarian. I worked a couple of years as an access services librarian and then four years as a reference librarian at a university. Then I moved out of state and could not find a library job, so I spent several years working in the educational event planning department of a national professional association. Every year, we hosted a large convention, several smaller conferences on different themes, and several webinar series. I had a background in instruction and had also coordinated an huge exam process for incoming freshmen to test out of a library skills course, so I had some background in education and organizing events. I was able to make the case at the professional association that I was organized, detail-oriented, etc., and they were willing to think outside the box. I worked in that association position for several years and have now returned to the library field. You definitely need to have an open-minded person doing the hiring, but I really think librarians have versatile skills that can translate well into many fields.

      1. Waiting to be Future Endeavored*

        Check out the site INALJ (I need a library job). I think there were recently a series of interviews with people in nontraditional library jobs.
        I work in a university library and the response has not been great, but I’m in a role where I’m allowed to work remotely.
        You can look at government jobs (local, state, or federal) — federal applications are their own thing so definitely look into the best way to apply. If you do a lot of customer service and programming, you could look into events/communications/marketing jobs. Or other types of public service jobs at companies or universities.
        To get an idea of jobs, I would suggest scrolling the local job boards and/or looking at your MLIS program for alumni stories and examples. Then think about how you can apply your experience to these required skills.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Event marketing jobs would probably be right up OP’s alley. My company (a software firm) is currently hiring for a lot of these roles right now.

      2. MCL*

        I agree on conference/educational program management, and it’s a good fit with the program work OP is already doing. The only thing is that things are potentially a little wacky right now due to the pandemic (what isn’t). OP should keep in mind that most of the events they work on will likely be virtual for at least the next 6-12 months or longer.

        +1 to “I really think librarians have versatile skills that can translate well into many fields.”

    19. rageismycaffeine*

      Prospect research is a niche fundraising field that has a lot of MLIS holders in it. We do a lot of work around helping fundraisers prioritize prospective donors, researching into people’s capacity to give, and sometimes some data analysis. I’m an MLIS holder myself and have only ever been in this niche field. You can contact me for more information if you want at this username at gmail dot com – I’ve talked to a few folks from the AAM boards about my profession before!

      1. OkapiFeels*

        I talked a lil bit to rageismycaffeine a few weeks ago (under a different username) and it was really informative, FWIW to other readers.

    20. Anne of Green Gables*

      Many folks have already mentioned academic and corporate librarianship. I moved from public libraries to a community college library 5 years ago. Not going to lie, the pay is worse in my case, but there are trade-offs that made it worth it to me. (Much more flexible schedule, almost 2 weeks off at Christmas that isn’t my vacation time, very rare evenings, rare Saturdays and when I do work, it’s only 9-1, as opposed to every other Saturday at one public library and every third full weekend (sat & sun) at a different public library)

      For me, community college is a much better fit than a 4-year. First, no pressure to publish. Second, my user base is very, very similar to that at my most recent public library. True, no patrons under 16 and not many over 55, but within the rest it’s a very similar demographic including all the racial and socio-economic diversity I had at my public library. As someone who really believes in public libraries, I like that I’m still serving a similar population.

      My institution as a whole (not just the library) has been great about Covid. No one is being forced to return to campus, they put a lot of safety measures in place, many classes and services are online. We’re doing a ton of library chat. We had a small committee within the library that made our plans to re-open with scaled back hours and limited services that started in August. We’re currently considering adding back one service and are taking a department-wide vote. Staff working on site chose to do so, and we were instructed by our dean that those who chose to work on site are still only to be on-site twice a week to decrease exposure. Mask wearing is mandated on campus for all unless you are alone in an office with a closed door. I know not all institutions are the same, but that’s been my experience.

    21. another librarian???!!*

      Some options that I’ve sort of thought about but not fully explored:

      non-profit prospecting for donors
      private law firm libraries
      public law libraries (same issues might apply here, though, so beware!)
      corporate libraries
      any software company that builds taxonomies or indexes into their software
      corporate trainer
      competitive intelligence research for companies

      There’s a lot of options if you take the individual job tasks and separate it out from the “library” title!

    22. Thankful for AAM*

      Excellent question future former librarian!

      Also a librarian and I am interested in a move to technical writing. I did a little looking, I don’t see entry level jobs (so often the case) so does anyone have suggestions about how to get started? I see ads require or prefer a degree in a tech field or in technical writing. Would a Udemy course help me get a sense of the field? What are your suggestions for getting that first job (other than AAM advice about a great cover letter that shows how my library exp translates)?

  5. Arc’teryx*

    have been through 4 rounds of phone interviews for a position with a large global firm. The person who would be my direct manager and I have mutually decided to meet in person (masked, and as distanced as possible) for coffee (because the firm office is closed) so we can mutually decide if it’s a good fit. Here are my two questions
    1. He may offer to pay for my coffee. Should I allow him to or insist I pay for mine?
    2. Do I need to wear a full business suit? I haven’t needed one for 5 years so I would need to buy one. (Which is fine just time consuming)

    Thanks!

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      IMO: Allow him to pay if offered, as it will be a company cost on his end, and wear a dress shirt and slacks, preferably with a tie, suit jackets only if this is an executive level position.

    2. 867-5309*

      I agree with Teekanne except… and this is just my personal thing… don’t wear a tie. Wear a sweater or blazer over the button down. The tie with just dress pants and a dress shirt hearkens back to high school dance days.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Let him pay for coffee.

      I don’t think you need a full suit. If you wear more traditionally “female” clothing, then go for a dress or dress slacks. A nice sweater if you have one. If you wear traditionally “male” clothing, I think you’re ok with dress slacks and a good shirt. I’m indifferent on the tie, others may feel more strongly.

    5. CatPhotosUponRequest*

      I think No. 2 will depend more upon the industry you’re interviewing for, but “large global firm” makes me think that a suit isn’t totally out of the question. But you can probably get away with a nice pair of slacks and a sport jacket, if you’re a guy (I’m a guy, and I don’t want to give specific advise for non-guys).

      As for the coffee, I would say go in planning to pay. If the manager says it’s on them, offer sincerely once to pay for yourself; if they insist, I would let them.

      1. IsItOverYet?*

        In these situations, I get out my wallet to pay but then I don’t argue if they offer. Someone who is good at this will set it up so it’s obvious they will pay (step up first, put in their order, ask for yours, and then hand over the money) but that kind of body language may be harder with covid precautions

    6. Sled dog mama*

      Perhaps a silly point but how are you going to drink your coffee while masked?
      I think dress for the company/position is important, I’ve been the most comfortable and felt I shined the most in interviews when I wore exactly what I’d wear to work. That said my industry (and personal style) is pretty formal. It would be odd for me to wear anything besides dress slacks and a button down or nice top (feminine-female presenting person). I occasionally wear heels but I’m already tall so mostly wear flats, and the occasional business suit has happened at work for big events (like a state inspection).
      If your industry is more casual then dressing a little above would come across as polished where a suit might come across as too much.
      Let the interviewer pay for coffee if they offer, it’s a business experience for them.

      1. AP.*

        When I met someone for coffee recently we chose a place that featured outdoor seating. We sat at a fairly large table which allowed for a decent amount of distance. As it was hot outside, I had an iced drink and used a straw. That meant I could leave the mask on, and flip it up when I needed to take a sip.

      1. hillary*

        I agree allow him to pay – he’s likely expensing it. I don’t think full suit – I’d probably do a blazer over dress or slacks, modified to be comfortable for the weather. It’s not a formal interview.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Since your comment below says you’re a woman, I’d say wear an outfit suitable in your industry for a normal workday that includes a meeting with your grandboss or a client. In some cases, that would mean a suit.

      Since you haven’t needed one for so long, I’m guessing probably not for this either.

    9. Heat's Kitchen*

      I don’t own a full suit and won’t wear one to an interview. I wear nice pants, blouse & blazer. Especially since it’s a meet for coffee, I’d personally do a bit more that business casual (no jeans). Disclaimer: I’m in tech.

      1. Uranus Wars*

        I think
        1. let him pay,
        2: your slacks/blazer/blouse combo sounds fine to me! A few women in our tech department also wear a dress and blazer to work with flats often, so if that is comfortable for you I think that would be fine too.

      2. TTDH*

        This is a question from the fashion-impaired, but how do people usually wear the pants and blazer thing in a way that doesn’t look like a suit but still matches? Is it like black pants and a statement color blazer?

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          It could be. Or you can wear two tone slacks and blazers in the same color family to eliminate the matchy-matchy feel of a suit.

        2. Uranus Wars*

          I do what you said, or sometimes a colorful dress or light slacks with a black blazer. Complimentary colors but in 2 different shades, really. Like olive/black, black/white, white/red, black/red, pale blue/white, pale blue/grey, etc.

          I am originally from SWPA so I avoid black/yellow combos (I love all things sports but that this combo is reserved for game days is engrained in me!)

  6. Student Affairs Sally*

    I’ve had “final” interviews with two positions in the past few weeks. I’m still waiting to hear from my first choice, but my second choice contacted me this week asking me to interview with THREE additional people, one of whom I’ve already spoken with once, even though the last interview was mentioned several times as being the final one. I’m guessing that they couldn’t decide between me and another candidate, so that’s a positive sign, but I’m also a little frustrated that I have to take more time off work and jump through more hoops for my second choice position. I guess on the bright side, it buys more time for me to hear from my first choice.

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Yes, getting the extra, extra interviews can be so frustrating! It is a chance, though, to ask the magic question if you haven’t already! I’ve gotten three different job offers using Alison’s advice and asking what the difference would be to the employer between a good employee and a great one :) Good luck!

      1. Student Affairs Sally*

        I ALWAYS ask the magic question, usually in the first interview (and sometimes in subsequent interviews if I’m speaking with different people). So far it hasn’t resulted in an offer, but my interviewers always seem impressed by it.

    2. Observer*

      If your suspicion is correct, it’s the PERFECT time to ask what would differentiate a great employee from a merely good employee in this position, if you haven’t asked that yet.

      2. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        :) The short of the long is that I was binge watching Downton Abbey one night, thought to myself I needed a man with an accent and Googled how to live in Europe. Though I had a degree in teaching, I immediately signed up to be an underpaid au-pair. Three weeks later I was on a plane and two days after arriving, I met someone! After a couple of years we got married, I got another degree, and now I am interviewing for larger companies over here after teaching English for various language centers. I am impulsive and was willing to live poor, and it paid off!

          1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

            :) Considering I was UNIMPRESSED with said man when I first met him, and then he slowly grew on me, it was very RomCom. Fighting for a visa for the one year we lived in the States was not. Also, German is not the most romantic language, but for the healthcare system, I’m down with it!

        2. CatCat*

          I’m feeling like the whole early part of this story would make for an excellent and adventurous rom-com. I just love it!

    2. sleepy black cat*

      Austria checking in! just a grad student, but love reading the blog and it’s so useful for some parts of communication stuff.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Yeah? We were in NRW until last month, in Solingen, just nearby Köln. In between Dresden and Leipzig now. I lived in Liverpool a few years back myself, and honestly couldn’t understand a thing of Scouse! Can’t wait to go back though :)

        1. LPUK*

          Scouse is one thing but to be truly unintelligible you need to hear Geordie ( North east).It’s so lovely and melodic that only after they’ve stopped speaking do you realise you haven’t understood a thing they’ve said. Or strong Glaswegian, which sounds instantly aggressive, even if they are only talking about the weather!

          1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

            These are all new places I want to experience just to listen!! The first time I met my Scottish penpal, I had to ask her to actually write down some words she was saying XD

          2. Tau*

            I lived in Glasgow for six years, and it took a while but I eventually got my head round the accent (I think the issue is the vowels, really, they’re regular but very different from other English dialects, so once you get used to the shift you have a much easier time of it). One of my fond memories is sitting on a train to London and, sometime after we hit the border, thinking “there is something weird about how everyone is talking but I can’t put my finger on what…” At that point I’d gotten so used to Glaswegian that the lack of it seemed strange and wrong. The start was rough, though, and I had to play translator whenever someone came to visit.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I’m in the UK . I read as I find it interesting to see what’s similar and what is different in the USA, and a good deal of the (non-legal / rights) advice works in either context.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Agreed. Do y’all get paid monthly or bi-weekly in the UK? I was in a volunteer program when I lived there, and here in Germany it is monthly, which was hard to get used to! Also, is it more contract employment there as it is here in Germany? I can’t say I miss living in an at-will country!

        1. SarahKay*

          I’m another UK person, and I get paid monthly. I’d say that tends to be the norm for salaried jobs, and yes, contracts all the way. My current contract is two months’ notice required if I want to leave – but the company has to pay minimum three months notice if they make my position redundant.

          1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

            I do appreciate that built in security- we’ve got about 3 months here for notice but I had never heard of that redundancy safety, that’s not bad. I’ve wondered though, what can they actually do to you should you leave before the two months is out?

            1. SarahKay*

              Good question. At least in the UK, theoretically they can sue for Breach of Contract, although only to cover any financial losses they may have incurred – but I’d say it’s extremely unlikely most companies would do so. Certainly I can’t imagine my current one would bother.
              More likely it’s just a burnt bridge. Right now if I gave my notice I have confidence that both my managers would give me excellent references if asked; if I left with significantly shorter notice without a very good reason I think they’d still give reasonably good references, but not glowing. And quite possibly as part of the reference they’d tell my new employer that I left with shorter notice than required, which then starts me off in the new job at a possible disadvantage.

        2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          (UK here) I get paid monthly and have done in every “white collar” type of job I’ve worked in as has everyone else I know in the same position.

          There are blue-collar jobs that pay weekly or fortnightly but I think that is fairly uncommon now. At a blue-collar job my (now ex) husband worked at, they had the option of whether to be paid monthly or weekly; not sure why!

          1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

            Wow, he got to choose? That seems like a perk that would be offered at higher levels. My hubs and I have been debating whether its finally better to have to plan and be careful for a full month with one lump sum or have the convenience of the two week blocks.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        There’s a reason I introduce myself as a Texan first and not an American right now.. and that reason is a large orange person. But y’all have your own copy :D

    6. Tau*

      Hey neighbour, I’m in Berlin! I actually am German – hope my country’s treating you well! That said, I spent a chunk of my childhood living in the US (+ was born there, so am also technically American) and most of my adulthood living in the UK until recently. I’ve been reading AAM since I joined the workforce in 2015, since a lot of it is still applicable across the Atlantic. Even if it does embarrass me to admit that I now know more about US employment law than either UK or German.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Haha, not too far off. I’m in ye old Karl-Marx Stadt, if you ever want to come take a picture with the giant head ;) Yes, I LOVE this country. Hundesteuer, not so much, but now I cannot stand not separating my rubbish back in the States. And YOU are the multi-kulti here! I have to say I do wish there were local AAM fan-clubs with meetings in various places, because the folks on this blog are the best.

        1. some_coder*

          Karl-Marx Stadt? i’am living in Chemnitz too. Die Welt ist wirklich ein Dorf (the world is really just a small village).

      2. Helvetica*

        Hi, fellow Belgium resident! Also here, though not from here, and also saying for now because I’m on a limited time posting.

    8. Violet Rose*

      Fellow US expat in Northern Germany! (“der echte Norden”, they call it :P) I’ve read AAM in many countries.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We have a lot of Europeans around here, I don’t know that they frequent the Friday posts but you’re not alone.

    10. Chutzpah*

      Ex-pat in Sweden.

      Self-employed, and just here to gape at the stories about weird, batshit crazy human behavior…..

    11. Dane*

      From Denmark! And I’ve noticed posts by other Danes as well :)
      I think I got here from the comment section on notalwaysright.com which I got to from icanhazcheezburger I think? From way back in the old days XD

    12. Honoria, Dowager Duchess of Denver*

      UK here! Although I did grow up in the US, but ended back up in the UK. I’m fascinated by all the US work stuff, although the idea of not having a contract and having healthcare tied to your job makes me quite happy I didn’t stay there as an adult (I have a long term health condition that needs medication whether or not I’m employed).

    14. Thankful for AAM*

      Side story, I work in a library and today someone adked my coworker how you become an ex-pat. We think she wanted a form or something. She had not plans to live outside the US, she just wanted out on paper.

    15. Anima*

      Wow, Teekanne, you live in Chemnitz by choice? That town does not have a good reputation in any part of Germany (especially regarding foreigners). I hope you like it and are treated well!
      I myself am from south-western Germany (born in Saxony, so I know about Chemnitz first hand) and now know a lot more about American employment laws, but that caused me to look up the laws in my country, so win-win. I learned so much from AAM!

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Haha! EVERYONE asks me why on earth I live here. I first got here when the refugee crisis started, and ended up working with a lot of them while working at a language school. Five years on, we’re old friends, and I am in the middle of proofing a master’s thesis for one who decided to pursue English studies. They’re all thriving and it’s wonderful! The only trouble I ever had was from the Hartzvier skinheads. But word got around that I was from Texas and they seemed to respect that? They were awful! Otherwise, Chemnitz is actually pretty fun and so cheap :D

    16. Roeslein*

      I am based in Germany too! Originally from a nearby EU country, but I moved around quite a bit before landing here (most recently left London with the great Brexodus.)

  8. Orange Crushed*

    How do you deal with a manager that does the following: When he assigns tasks, he won’t say when it’s due, he just keeps checking in with me. “How far along are you? Do you have more to go?” Yet he won’t give deadlines. (I’ve asked and all he says is, “We’ve got time.”)

    How do you deal with a boss like this?

    1. Wordnerd*

      My best guess would be to look at your workload and priorities and say to him, “My plan is to have x project completed by [date].” And then if he checks in with “How far along are you?”, you can remind him that you planned to have it completed by x date. Basically create your own deadlines and communicate them to him in advance?

    2. Neosmom*

      I set a timeline that fits in with my other work and share in writing with the person assigning me the work. They let me know if my proposed timeline needs to be adjusted.

    3. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Preemptively offer a timeline! “Okay, I am planning to be at X phase of Y project by next Thursday”. He may also be fishing for you to give him updates on your own. A simple way to do this is to use a Google sheet and simply update the status of current projects every day and give him the link.

    4. Ashley*

      I usually try to suggest a date when given a task without a due date. So something like it is ok if I get back to you Tuesday with my questions? Or I try to prioritize it for them I say I will start working on this when I get X out the door.

    5. Sylvan*

      That’s frustrating. It doesn’t sound like you’re in this kind of workplace, but I had a boss like that at a shop once. Let’s say it was a florist shop. I would make a list of what needed to be done when I started my shift, and if she couldn’t give me specifics, I would ask questions that would let me gauge them. I tried to think in terms of her priorities rather than mine – her deadlines and what she needed to meet them. If she couldn’t tell me how many bouquets of roses needed to be made today, I would ask her how many needed to be delivered tomorrow.

    6. Jaydee*

      Set your own timelines and lay them out to him early.

      You: “What’s the deadline on this?”
      Fergus: “Oh, we have time.”
      You: “Okay. Well, I will plan to talk to the llama groomers this week and have a draft of the llama grooming report to you by next Monday. Then, if you can get your changes to me by end of day Wednesday, I can have the final report to you by Friday. Will that work?”

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      Maybe ask whether your manager wants to sit down and set a timeline? Or, if not, would your manager like to have daily emails you send of how your progress is going? Or just explicitly ask, when assigned work, “What’s the deadline for completion for this?”

    8. Emilitron*

      Wow, “Do you have more to go?” seriously? Yes, I do indeed have more to go, because if it were finished I would have sent it to you.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I’d be inching my way toward the door. This would drive me bats.

      “You asked me that earlier. Why don’t you tell me what time frame we have and I will make sure it is done by or before then?”

      I think I would get to the point where I would hold my answer to his time line questions for ransom. You will get my answer once we talk about why I am not told deadlines upfront and what needs to happen to fix that.

      If that feels a little too much, OP, then request a sit down meeting so the two of you can talk about how to communicate deadlines. This can get old fast.

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Ugh! How frustrating. I struggled to put my finger on why (other than that it’s annoying obviously, but it was more than that) but I think it’s because it is kind of… condescending or infantilizing in a way? Like “oh you don’t need to get involved with the actual deadlines, I’ll handle that, you just need to answer my questions” sort of thing.

      There is also a (very often) gendered version of this, where it comes across as a man saying something that boils down to “you don’t need to trouble your pretty little head about that!”, or at least it comes off that way even if that’s not what was intended.

      A more charitable view is that he is shielding you from stressing out over deadlines.

      If you have one-to-ones or regular checkins (or even if you don’t, you could request one as a one-off, but really you ought to be having them) you could try asking him about the pattern more generally, as it seems like you’ve asked about specific deadlines, but not really about the bigger picture like “I’ve noticed that we often get tasks that clearly have a specific deadline but you seem unwilling to share this with me, why is that?” (That isn’t a very good script and others could come up with something better, but that would be the aim of the conversation.)

    11. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Yep. This is my boss. She keeps saying, “oh yeah I keep forgetting you need deadlines” as in, me and only me, the needy weirdo needing deadlines. She lives her life in a constant state of procrastination because it doesn’t stress her out.

    12. allathian*

      I guess I’m lucky because my boss doesn’t set deadlines. Our internal clients do for critical stuff and for less critical stuff we set the deadlines ourselves. Some of our projects have statutory deadlines, so if one of those comes up, we have the mandate to renegotiate less-critical deadlines with our clients. We only involve our boss if a client has unrealistic expectations, and because we’re professional and known for our flexibility in most circumstances, she always has our backs when we just can’t give the client what they want.

      But yeah, I’m used to setting my own deadlines if they aren’t set for me. The lack of deadlines doesn’t bother me, but the progress report queries would.

  9. Confused Anon*

    I’m in a toxic, dysfunctional workplace and my boss is an abusive bully. We have to walk on eggshells around her. She’s cliquish, always choosing a “favorite” employee (usually the person that sucks up to her the most) and treating everyone else like crap. She likes to be in her office with the ‘favorite’, where they gossip/trash talk everyone else. She also spends most of the day on her phone making personal calls and gossiping, then complains about how she has to work at night.

    She sides with her friends and people she likes, so it’s always 2-against-1. She even bullied her assistant manager to the point that he threatened to go to the head of HR and she stopped.

    She’s obnoxious- she makes fun of others and mocks them. I said, “Yes, the report is done” and she repeated what I said in a mocking voice. I was stunned and said, “Is there anything else that you needed?” in a serious tone and she said that she was “just joking”.

    Besides documenting everything, how do you keep morale up while dealing with this until a new job comes along? Has anyone been in a situation like this? Do you just have to kiss up a lot?

    1. ten four*

      Wow, that sounds like a stone cold nightmare. I have worked for abusive bosses, and the things that helped me were:
      + Identify my own goals for my career, and focus on getting those done alongside my assigned responsibilities. Is there a thing you can do that will look good on your resume? Awesome. Having a my goals/their goals frame helped me keep a little distance from the crazy.
      + Really focus on distancing yourself at work. You don’t have to engage with every outrage to come down the pike! Choose your battles, and do your best to let the rest of the nonsense roll off your back.
      + Focus on everything outside of work. This job isn’t your life and it isn’t forever. Do what you can to avoid them living rent-free in your head.

      Literally zero of this advice is EASY to follow. It takes a lot of mental discipline and emotional resilience to get through a toxic job! I hope something better comes along very soon and that you can surf over the worst of the awfulness in the meantime.

    2. LPUK*

      I found that just recognising it was her problem and not mine helped! I did 2 years with a workplace bully – at the start I used to spend a lot of time near to tears in my office because I couldn’t understand how I had suddenly become so incompetent, but after checking with previous employees and realising they all had the same experience I was much less bothered by it. Towards the end of time time there I did get to the point where I said ‘ Ok, so you’re clearly not a fan of what I do – so let’s go to HR right now and you can tell them that and then we’ll both be better off….’ and she backed down right away. If you get to the stage where you can pity her for her insecurities rather being upset by her mean girl tactics, it may lend you some inner calm while you look for an exit

    3. Fiona*

      That’s horrible and you handled her mocking so perfectly. I would just keep up what you’re doing. Your serious response (“Is there anything else you needed?”) definitely indicated to her that you’re not a pushover who will give her a fake laugh. Morale will be tough, but here are some ideas:

      – Really make sure your out-of-work life is as happy and robust as possible. Dive into new or old hobbies, make time to chat with friends or loved ones, really lean into the fact that your life is NOT your toxic workplace.
      – Alison has great advice about pretending you’re an anthropologist and you’re observing the behaviors of some sort of strange culture. It helps one take a step back and add a boundary in your own mind. It’s also kind of sad – you will eventually leave that job; your boss will not leave the kind of person she is. Sometimes I have to remind myself of that to get the bigger picture.
      – Focus on the work and only the work, if possible.
      – You seem like you’re already doing this, but keep your own sense of self and values and don’t get swept along with the dysfunction. In an old job I had, someone senior to me asked me to quasi-spy on a colleague to make sure she was doing her job (??). I was sort of like “uh, okay” and then simply didn’t do it, but in retrospect, I wish I had said something like “I’m not comfortable doing that.” You want to be able to walk away from this job with as much integrity as capitalism allows…

      Good luck!!!! I hope something new comes along soon.

    4. juneybug*

      Oh, that’s terrible! What a shame your boss is such an immature jerk!

      Would you be able to internally smile or thank the universal/God that you are moving on every time she does something mean? For example:
      CA: Here is my report boss.
      Boss: Oh, it’s early! Aren’t you the little over-archiver?
      CA: Thank you. I will leave you to and go back to work (said very calmly).
      (inside your head – yep and soon you will no longer have me to torture cause I am outta here!)

      Once you get good at this, the hard part will be not smiling in real life. Or go for it – smile sweetly. It will creep her out when you don’t take her bullying.

      Good luck! I hope you find a better job, with better coworkers, and much better pay. You deserve it!

    5. Uncannycanuck*

      Well, you do everything in your power to make that new job come along ASAP. Easier said than done, I know, but apply everywhere for everything. This is a bad place to be.
      You have to just decide that her being a terrible person isn’t about you. Her mocking, her bullying, her bad behaviour is all about her. And because you are a wonderful, fabulous, valuable person, you don’t need to take in her toxic negativity. It isn’t about you. It’s not for you. Do your very best to just let it roll right off you and walk away. Visualize a teflon coating or a force field for yourself.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      It looks like you met my old boss’ twin. Tell yourself that people who can’t manage do THIS instead.

      Stop working for her and start working for your resume. Make plans to do things that would look great on a resume OR that would make great conversation for an interview.

      Respond to her in a flat, matter of fact tone of voice. It sounds like you have been doing this. Keep doing it.

      You can always tell how well you got your point across by the reaction you get. In your example here, that she was just joking, you hit a bulls eye. You made your point and she was NOT comfy she felt the need to explain herself.

      Really focus on the work. This confuses the crap out of people like this. “Did you hear s0-an- so was getting divorce?” [Answer yes or no, it doesn’t matter, keep your voice flat and disinterested then switch to work.] “Yeah/no. That xyz report is almost done, I will email you when I got it.”
      And keep redirecting to the work you are doing. This baffles the crap out of people like your boss. They just don’t know what to do.

    7. Working Hypothesis*

      That sounds awful. I’m so sorry you have to go through that. If I were in your position, I would probably try to cope with the time until I could escape by using Alison’s technique of treating it like an anthropological study or something… thinking to myself, “Oh, look! It is making those high-pitched noises again. I believe it is attempting to create a condescending humor performance for the benefit of its social allies,” and that kind of thing. It can help you to keep your brain disengaged from the torment.

      Good luck getting out soon!

    8. Workerbee*

      How much documenting do you have already? It’s interesting that she stopped bullying her assistant manager when he only threatened to go to HR—it doesn’t sound like he followed through regardless of her response. What if you brought up the same, or just went to HR without giving her that heads up?

    1. Nessun*

      What an ass. That VP obviously has quite the inflated ego! I think the manager should have pushed back citing the standards for support, but really, they were stuck between an ego and a bad policy. I feel for the writer, but everything about that was just a mess.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think the manager handled it as best they could.

      Once something has happened it’s too late for preventative steps. All that could be done was to ban the VP (or anyone) from calling people at home and prevent future occurrences.

      I have been told and I have told people something along the lines of being too helpful. Every service offered has boundaries, cut-off points. Telling an employee that they are too helpful recognizes the fact that they were trying to do a good job but also opens a discussion about boundaries.

      The VP sounds very high maintenance.

    4. LGC*

      The manager should have been more understanding of the fish, it sounds like – but the manager was actually right! If the fish was hourly (which is what it sounds like), what the VP did was illegal. (Okay, technically illegal.)

      I will say, though, that it sounds like there was some pushback. Yeah, the fish got reprimanded…but it sounds like the VP was as well for his actions.

  11. Quaremie*

    Hi everyone!

    I currently manage a team of about 30 people, and it’s getting unwieldy. I’m putting in some manager positions and promoting people from the team (which currently has a flat structure) into these positions. On the advice I received here several months ago, as well as discussion with my mentors, I’ve made these open competitions and encouraged everyone who is interested to apply, and I will interview them. Happily, I’ve had a great turnout and many of my top employees have applied. Right now I have six applicants for three positions, and the application window closes on Monday.

    Next week I will do my interviews with them. I was wondering if anyone had any advice for how to approach this. I’ve managed all of them for years and so have a good sense of their strengths and weaknesses, but this position will have new responsibilities that I have not seen them exercise as much. I want my interviews to be fair and equal to them all. In addition to relatively standard questions about why they think they’d be good in this position, and giving examples of times they’ve shown leadership, etc, does anyone have any ideas of things I should explore during the interviews? I really want to look at their qualities from a different angle, and not just come out of the interview with the exact same perceptions I had going in.

    And lastly, does anyone have any tips or resources for managing new managers? When I started managing this team, I had never managed anyone and started with one person. I learned on the job, and through reading AAM and HBR and other sources. But I would like to support my new managers through this transition, beyond just having regular 1:1s with them. Thank you!

    1. Lily Rowan*

      I think specific behavioral interview questions will be key — they may be able to talk about experiences they have had outside of working for you, and/or you’ll get a better sense of their thought processes. I’d also get other people involved in interviewing, so it’s not just you.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m not exactly sure how best to word this, but I would try to get a feel of what they think might be the pitfalls of managing a team of people who have been their peers and/or work-friends and how they feel about their capacity to handle that – basically, are they aware that there ARE potential pitfalls and are they realistic about that, not just “Oh, it’ll be fiiiiiine, we’re all good buddies!”

      1. AP.*

        I agree with this. And in addition to asking how they’ll manage former peers, I would also ask how they envision their new role, what kind of changes they think they’d like to make, what sort of pitfalls they see, etc.

        It sounds like all these people have been there for a while, so they should have an idea as to how they would approach this promotion.

        As for managing new managers, I would just be prepared to spend a lot of time early on guiding them. In the short term you’re workload will undoubtedly increase. In addition to 1-on-1s, you may also want to start a regular manager meeting for all your directs, where you discuss issues that have come up as a team. And while I’m generally not a fan of 360 degree evaluations, it may be useful here to see if there are any issues that pop up after 6 months or a year.

        1. Quaremie*

          Thank you for these comments! Yes, I had been thinking about the issue of them managing former peers… the team is remote and few of them are super close with each other (to my knowledge), so I may be able to manage who works on what team so that the most obvious issues are avoided – but it’s certainly something to consider. One of my main concerns is how people who aren’t promoted now handle being managed and coached by someone who was their peer (and who may have been hired after them). It’s a separate question, but any ideas there would be appreciated :) I am not sure how to best smooth that over ahead of time.

          I completely agree that my workload is going to go up for a while… I’m really hoping this pays off in the long run. But I am looking forward to developing closer working/mentoring relationships with some people as it’s just so hard to do right now when I have so many reports. All of your ideas are great – thank you!

          1. AP.*

            It’s going to be toughest for those who applied but didn’t get promoted. I would even ask them in the interview how they’d handle working for a peer if they don’t get the job.

    3. Bostonian*

      I am really looking forward to seeing other people’s responses to the last bit.

      As for the interviews, situational questions are key: even if they don’t have direct experience, they can talk about what they think is the best way to approach a problem. For example, ask them what they would do if someone came to them with a complaint about their direct report. What would they do with a complaint from another department? How would they train/onboard/coach their direct reports? Even if everyone is equally inexperienced from a management/leadership perspective, some people will have better instincts than others on how to handle these issues.

      In order for you to be able to evaluate them, you need to get clear in your head what your vision is for how you want this group to be managed. What skills do they need to be able to coach in their direct reports? How critical is relationship building in their role? This will help reveal the types of questions you should be asking them.

      And, finally, it’s really important when building a team of managers that you have different perspectives. So, if you end up with all of them being really competent options after the interviews, you don’t want to pick the 3 that have all the same ideas as you.

    4. LPUK*

      If you have the time and the job lends itself to case studies – you could use a relevant example and ask them to prepare a response to a given situation – in my experience it tells you more about their thought processes than any number of ‘tell me about a time’ . I’ve done inbox exercises for roles where correct triaging is very important and asked people to comment on innovation briefs when I’m looking for analytical skills and commercial understanding. In both these cases, the person who seemed to have the best skills/experience on their resume actually underperformed in the task vs the others, and the people who did well ( and got the jobs) went on to be great employees. The inbox example I adapted from an online case study. The innovation brief was a real, although older brief that i had access to in my role – I just anonymised it.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Case studies are a great idea. For my current job, I got a case study question about managing both my team and external stakeholders that was 100% relevant. (Also I now bet it was designed to see how the internal applicant with no management experience would think about it.)

        1. Quaremie*

          Hmm, interesting idea. I would have to think about this but I will see if I can come up with something!

          1. Lily Rowan*

            It really was as simple as describing a typical situation and asking me to write down how I would handle it.

    5. JustMyImagination*

      “What would one of your first priorities be as a manager?” It might give you a sense of who is thinking bigger picture and who may be too focused on minor details.

    6. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I was hired as a first-time manager last year, and the second-round questions in particular were focused on the people management part of the job – at one point I was told “we think you have the technical skills, but since it would be your first job managing people that component is what we’d like to discuss here.” That is a nice line to take because you put the employee at ease by acknowledging that they are good performers AND lets you pivot to the stuff you actually want to know about if they are leveling up.

      It might be worth detailing what that looks like for them in your workplace, to position them for understanding what the job looks like (as Alison says, it is a fact-finding chat for the interviewee as well as interviewer). “There will be some days where it feels like you get no actual work done because you’re putting out fires or handling the vacation schedule or stuck in meetings, are you prepared for that?” and to discuss how they feel about delegating, or interruptions, or whatever makes sense to discuss.

      I felt great after that conversation because it gave me a better sense of the job and whether I felt able to handle it, and for my bosses a glimpse of whether I had the full skill set they needed.

    7. Haha Lala*

      Is there someone else at your company that can conduct the interviews with you? Maybe a manager from a different team, or someone from HR that doesn’t know your team as well as you do?
      That way you can get an outside opinion as to who’s best suited for each role, and you don’t have to worry about your own preconceived notions. And the interviewees might end up giving more detailed answers, since they’ll need to prove more to someone that doesn’t yet know them.

      1. Bex*

        This is a great suggestion! It would also help make it clear that you’re not playing favorites if there is another outside interviewer.

        1. Quaremie*

          This is a great idea! Your comment and one below actually made me think outside the box and think of someone who has a similar role on another team. He may be able to help me. Everyone is so swamped these days and most people will have a hard time committing to even a few more hours work, but he may help – and I think it could be beneficial for both of us. Thank you – this is SO helpful!

    8. NW Mossy*

      When I interview, I find it really helpful to work backwards from the behaviors I want the person to exhibit in the role and use that to formulate both a question and what I’m looking for in a strong answer. I used a model that the Manager Tools podcast (a great resource for new leaders) suggests of Lead, Question, Behavior to give a consistent structure to all the questions – they discuss in more detail in their cast “How to Create a Simple Behavioral Interview Question.” The idea is that you lead in, ask a question, and cue the behavioral aspect you’re interested in.

      As an example, the last time I hired, it was for a role that involved reviewing peers’ work and giving feedback on it. I used this question to explore that: “One of our most important controls is peer reviewing each other’s work. Tell me about a time when you had to give someone critical feedback about their work and you weren’t sure if they’d take it well – how did you go about it, and what was the outcome?” In the answer, I was looking for behaviors that go with giving feedback well – doing it timely, using clear/direct language, assuming positive intent on the other person’s part, seeing improvement after giving feedback, and using the situation as a relationship strengthener. This one also lends itself well to a follow-up question about how they behave when the shoe’s on the other foot.

      Setting up questions this way is really interesting. From the interviewer standpoint, it seems like they’re questions that lead people to the “right” answer. In practice, you get wildly different answers and the difference between strong ones and weak ones is really obvious – exactly what you want when you’re trying to hire the strongest candidate.

      1. Quaremie*

        This is a wonderful idea! Thank you. I really have to think carefully before I go into these interviews! :)

    9. HR Exec Popping In*

      I would consider doing a panel interview. Do you have peers or other colleagues that can participate with you and help you assess the candidates? And as others have already stated, be sure to use behavioral questions that would enable you to assess the critical skills needed for the new roles. And if there is a technical knowledge component of the jobs, a case study or exercise is a good option as well.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I have one huge question. Will these new managers be authorized to fire people?
      It makes a difference.
      If people know their boss cannot fire them, they can start having all kinds of behaviors.
      And from the other side of the question, I wouldn’t take a job where I couldn’t fire people and I still had to be responsible for their work. We’ve talked about this here and I see there are others who agree, so I am not alone on this one.
      I don’t care if I have to get approval to fire first, that is pretty normal in many places. But I need to have say in the matter.

      Where i am going with this is if these new managers have the authority to fire, can they follow through? It matters. If a person cannot fire someone who needs to move on, new layers of misery can start to happen.

      My very next question is for the candidates. Can they train? If they can’t train/teach/coach then they can’t do a whole section of the management job.

      If you end up with a manager who cannot train/coach and cannot fire you have a problem.

      1. Quaremie*

        Thank you for your comment! Certainly right now, they wouldn’t have the authority to fire people, but I anticipate that if there were severe problems with someone’s work, the protocol would be something like:
        – The manager tries to work with the employee to solve the problem/behaviour
        – If the employee is not improving, the manager would bring the issue to me and I would get involved
        – If the employee is still not improving, we would consider termination. This would involve feedback from the person’s manager, but I would be heavily involved. For that matter, I don’t think even know if I have 100% authority to fire people – if I had severe issues with someone that I couldn’t fix, I would be getting my bosses involved first.

        My authority as a manager has grown a lot since I started 4 years ago, and now I handle most of the interviewing and hiring without getting my bosses involved, but for quite a while I was a day-to-day manager but not a hiring/firing manager. I would expect that my new managers would not start hiring and firing people on day one, but of course I would want their feedback and I would start involving them in interviews and listening to their feedback on employees. Right now I really need people to help run this huge team and take some of the work off my plate, but I would still maintain control over those type of larger decisions.

        As far as training goes, we have a supervisor who trains all of our new team members, and she will continue in that role -but I need the new managers to be subject matter experts who can help review their employees’ work, catch mistakes, and coach them to improve. So yes, I agree that they need to be able to coach!

    11. 867-5309*

      Have you thought about asking someone else to also interview candidates? Maybe a peer manager in another department? That will give you an outsiders point of view, given how close you are to these team members.

    12. Policy Wonk*

      RE: the interviews themselves, can you have a fellow manager join you for the interviews? Always good to have a second opinion, particularly when you know the candidates, so the result is not perceived as playing favorites. (We usually do teams of three, but I’m not sure you have time to round up two others.)

  12. Sylvan*

    One of this morning’s questions brought this to mind for me, and probably a few other commenters. What is your Zoom/Teams video setup like? Have you made any recent changes?

    1. Millennial Lizard Person*

      Our laptops have their webcam in the bottom frame of the screen, so everyone has the least flattering angle possible. I got a laptop stand not just for that reason, but it was a motivation. Now my camera is actually at face height.

        1. Betty*

          My Dell laptop has the camera in the lower left corner. It is so awful! In addition to being a totally unflattering angle, it makes it look like you’re looking off to the side at something else when you’re really looking at the people on your screen.

          1. KayDeeAye*

            Mine does, too. It’s just ridiculous. I use (no kidding) either a box or a stack of books, depending on where in the house I’m taking the call, so at least it’s at face height. I’ve given trying to look directly at the camera because it feels so unnatural to talk to a teensy little black oval – and besides, when I do that, I can’t see anybody’s face, and what’s the point of a Zoom call if you can’t see anybody’s face?

          2. Pennyworth*

            No all Dell laptops have the camera there – my newish Dell V0stro has it top center. I though that was just standard and didn’t even think about it when I bought it.

            2. KayDeeAye*

              Yes, I’ve heard that there is hope, once I get a new laptop, which I think will be sometime next year. Yaaaay! :-)

              I like Dell laptops a lot, but the camera placement is just so silly and counterintuitive.

      4. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Come to think of it, a webcam like that has exactly one use: helping me find and pluck those pesky chin hairs… XD I would consider using an external cam

      6. Mandy*

        I’m laughing at the horrified responses to this. My kindergartner could use a setup like this! She has to have the laptop monitor at a step angle or you can’t see her at all.

      7. Tomato Frog*

        Ours, too. It’s also very entertaining when someone is typing and you get to see their fingers in EXTREME CLOSEUP. I switch over to my personal laptop when I have to be on video.

    2. Web Crawler*

      I have a cardboard box on an ottoman that I can stick my laptop on so that it’s head height while I sit in an armchair. I can’t type while the laptop is sitting there, but I have a wireless mouse and a lap desk so I can still click around.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        I had to do that once for a video call (which we don’t have to do often, thank goodness). My ottoman is a little softer than I realized…the box shifted and the laptop slid off during the meeting! Luckily I was on mute at the time and it wasn’t that disruptive, though I did see a few people snicker. So now I know what NOT to do! Haha

    3. Southern Academic*

      this morning’s convo made me laugh. I have basically no zoom setup.

      If I want to seem even semi-professional, I’m at my desk, w/ books in the background, but I have terrible lighting & so one side of my face is in shadow. (I’m one of those people who works better in dimmer environments, so between that and the cost !! of lamps !! I have no motivation to get more lights.)

      But I’ve also Zoomed from my couch (with my front door in the background), and from my bed (kinda hoping people did not see my pillows in the background) and tilted my screen up so the only thing that could be seen was a white wall.

      I also haven’t worn makeup for five months.

      If I were needing to seem professional (e.g. presenting to other grad students / faculty), I’d work at a more professional setup, but for meetings w/ students or informal talks w/ faculty and advisors, I don’t think anybody cares.

      1. Hermione*

        The no-makeup life is AMAZING. The most I’ve done is filled in my eyebrows on days where I wear contacts instead of glasses (rare nowadays) to frame my face a bit for video calls, but really, all of these regular Zoom meetings have killed any video-related anxieties I used to have.

        1. The Rural Juror*

          I had bought some heavier-framed reading glasses at the beginning of the year. They’re very low-powered, I mainly got them for the blue light filter. They’ve been a godsend! I don’t have to wear any makeup if I’m wearing them (so I wear them pretty much anytime I have to be on camera). If I’m not wearing them, then I have to do something or else my eyes look extremely washed-out…and I look a little sickly. I’ve saved so much money on makeup this year but wearing these glasses! I got them on Zenni, they were cheap :)

    4. Hermione*

      I’m lucky enough to have the space to set up a desk in my dining room, which I already owned and was in basement storage along with a rolling desk chair from my college days.

      I bought a pair of noise cancelling headphones fairly early on in quarantine because my 20-something year old neighbors are the worst, and so moved my desk so that I’m facing the door and my family doesn’t sneak up on me (experience is the best teacher). I have a window and mostly blank wall behind me, and a second monitor to connect to my laptop. I also bought a back pillow for my desk chair and a plastic mat to protect the wood floors early on when it was clear that we’d be home until at least the end of the summer.

      Now that we’re confirmed to be WFH until at least January, just last week I caved and bought a two-armed monitor/laptop clamp stand to raise them to where I need them instead of having them stacked perilously on books, and I bought a cheap bluetooth keyboard and mouse because mine were old and squeaky.

      I’m hoping that this is the end of my WFH purchases, but I’m also pretty impulsive when it comes to comfort…

      1. Hermione*

        I should say, I already owned the second monitor, but my office also allowed folks to – pre-planned and with contact tracing in effect – go in and pick up their monitors or folders as needed.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I have an auxiliary webcam on top of my desktop monitor. I’ve tidied the field of view behind me and hung a pretty curtain so that it doesn’t show the messy coathooks or random junk.

      My desk is already facing a window, so that when I look at the monitor I have natural light on the side of my face. If the lighting were worse, I’d probably put a lamp or something to fill it.

    7. Not_Kate_Winslet*

      I have an external camera that sits on top of my main monitor. The height of the laptop camera is awkward for all of the reasons previously mentioned. All summer I sat with my back to the window, but I recently got a new sit/stand desk so I’ve been experimenting with different arrangements. I haven’t nailed the perfect setup yet… I thought I had it this week, but the floor is slightly sloped in this area so my chair rolls sideways, causing me some strange back pain.
      My team has started calling me Goldilocks because I can’t find the arrangement that’s “just right.”

    8. HR Exec Popping In*

      External web cam on a second monitor so it is above eye level, desk lamp for lighting and I try to remember to remove the various cat toys from the floor in the background although one of the cats will often make a cameo in the background chasing a ball around. :D

      I am fortunate to have a home office it has glass paned french doors behind me into the living room so you can still see what is happening behind me in the other room. I am considering putting curtains up on them but just haven’t gotten around to it.

    9. JustaTech*

      For work WebEx/Teams if we have to have our cameras on I use the dinky little camera built in to the top of my laptop screen (which then messes up the resolution on my main monitor, but whatever).

      For Zooms with family on my personal computer (but at the same desk with the same monitor) I got a nicer webcam.

      For both I use my giant Bose headphones because the mic on my laptop is useless (I can’t find it and no one can hear me) and I don’t have any speakers on my personal computer yet (lazy).

      I thought about using my nicer webcam for my work video stuff, but it shows off way too much of my office/craft room and I don’t want to have to scramble to pick up every time someone wants to chat. (It’s not that the room is a disaster, it’s just that it’s full of non-work stuff and somewhat cluttered because I hadn’t started actually setting the room up before COVID, so there are stacks of things rather than shelves and bins.)

    10. pancakes*

      I don’t often do video calls, but my boyfriend leads a zoom meditation class from his phone with a Manfrotto mini tripod on his desk and it works well. We already had and sometimes use an assortment of clamp lights with their own tripods & diffusers from various projects over the years. There’s a lot of decent advice out there on DIY lighting diffusers, much of it meant for film students but useful for anyone trying to avoid glare and weird shadows.

  13. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

    When you’re job searching, how often do you check for new jobs? I’ve been looking for a few months, had several interviews but no offers (for lack of very specific experience), and am getting discouraged. Jobs for my degree and experience are few and far between in my local area, so I’ve been concentrating on remote opportunities and it’s starting to feel unhealthily obsessive.

    1. Student Affairs Sally*

      Two questions – one, are there specialized job boards or websites for your industry? And two, if there are, can you set them up to send you emails when new jobs get posted that match certain parameters you set? Quite a few higher ed job sites will provide email alerts, so I’m able to “passively” search every day – it doesn’t take up a ton of my time, I just skim my daily job emails for anything that looks promising. Sometimes I will check out job postings at particular institutions I’m interested in, but usually I let the job boards do the work for me.

      1. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

        Yes! The websites with the most relevant postings are easy to go through daily and I’ll keep that up. Where I’m having problems are sites like indeed, idealist, and LinkedIn because it’s just a constant scroll.

        1. Student Affairs Sally*

          Gotcha. I don’t really use Indeed much because it’s targeted more for private-sector jobs, which isn’t what I’m looking for, so I can’t really speak to that. I do use LinkedIn occasionally but it’s more something I browse when I have downtime rather than a daily search. LinkedIn will also send emails about new jobs, although I’ve found that those are more likely to not be useful for me. The only thing I can suggest there is just to be as specific as you can in your search terms so that you’re seeing more things that are relevant versus not relevant. And maybe set a schedule, so that you browse each site for 30 minutes or an hour and then let it go until tomorrow.

    2. RobotWithHumanHair*

      Daily. Hourly even. It’s really all I do anymore, which I realize isn’t great for my mental health, but it is what it is. In six months, I’ve gotten 3 first interviews…and nothing beyond that, unfortunately. So I keep searching and applying.

    3. Sylvan*

      I skimmed Indeed when I had a few minutes to kill and liked any job posting that looked like it might be interesting. About twice a week, I looked through everything I had liked in depth.

    5. Kiitemso*

      Daily, although I wasn’t looking for anything super specific when I last searched, just any job that could get my foot in the door on something new that taught me a lot of skills I didn’t already have. Since I found a job in a field I like, the next time I job search I know will be more discerning and possibly apply for fewer jobs but put more energy towards each application.

    6. Okumura Haru*

      Daily, and I’m signed up for both my grad school’s library jobs listserv, and a few Indeed notifications (for example, if there are any library jobs in Arcadia Bay, OR)

      I’m not looking right now, but it’s still nice to know that there are other options out there.

    7. Nikki*

      Depends on how competitive your field is, I think. My husband is job searching at the moment in a pretty competitive field. There will be new postings that are taken down after just a few days, probably because they’ve managed to get enough applicants in those few days. He searches every day because he doesn’t want to miss out on any postings like that. My field is much less competitive, so it’s pretty common for jobs to stay open for months before they’re filled. If you’re not worried about jobs disappearing before you’ve had a chance to see them, I’d say follow the above advice, set up some email alerts and check job boards every few days.

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      Usually about once a day. I used to have a folder full of tabs to job sites and employment pages of workplaces I’d like to work, and then right-click to open the folder in tabs, and then go through the tabs.

    9. JobHunter*

      Daily. I signed up for notifications from Indeed, Glassdoor, a state DOL website, the societies I have membership in, and specific employers. Most of the listings are useless to me, giving me lower-level positions or jobs that don’t match my profile. I have to sort through listings myself to find ones appropriate to my education level. I have missed several perfect opportunities because I relied on a Glassdoor algorithm to inform me that those professional opportunities existed but it chose to tell me about some random intern position instead.

      I attended a webinar that gave great tips on “Flourishing During the Job Hunt.” The first was to set a schedule and stick to it. I.e., schedule in advance how many hours you will search listings, how long you will read AAM, when you will prepare cover letters, when you will submit applications, etc.

      I plan on implementing a lot of those tips in my job search…right after I close my AAM tab. :D

    10. AnonPM*

      Been searching for a year. I made a spreadsheet of companies within a good commuting distance and, up until a couple months ago, I checked each of those employers weekly. I checked LinkedIn daily. I looked at Indeed and industry sites much less frequently, maybe one a month. It was too much and now I check LinkedIn once a week and run through my spreadsheet every 2 weeks. I noticed the same handful of jobs were being reposted on LinkedIn every couple of weeks so I dont think I’m missing out by not checking as often. Definitely recommend pacing yourself!

    11. BEE*

      Usually in the morning, and then again in the late afternoon. This week I have made a conscious decision to only look at LinkedIn once every second day or so (it’s not used as much for job listings compared to other sites where I live) and only click on the job search button, as scrolling down the feed and seeing all my alumni and other contacts sharing their promotions and advancement within their fields was making me feel even more useless. I’m happy for them, but it’s also crushing when you’re trying to move forward with your own career goals and feeling like you’re getting nowhere. It’s better for my mental health that I just not expose myself to that right now.

  14. Free Meerkats*

    Who is officially a Pretreatment Manager effective Sunday?

    This guy! The previous manager retired over 2 years ago and it took them this long to figure out that the position really needed to be filled.

    1. Toodie*

      What is a pretreatment manager? I can’t decide if I think you work for some substance abuse clinic or a laudromat.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        We implement the National Pretreatment Program on a local level.

        That didn’t help at all, did it? :)

        The National Pretreatment Program was initiated under the Clean Water Act of 1972 and fully implemented when EPA released the General Pretreatment Regulations in 1983. Basically, our job is to require commercial and industrial operations to treat their wastewater before sending it to the sewer.

        Quoting from EPA’s Introduction to the National Pretreatment Program https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/pretreatment_program_intro_2011.pdf , it’s our job to:

        > Prevent the introduction of pollutants into a POTW that will interfere with the operation of the POTW, including interference with its use or disposal of municipal sludge
        > Prevent the introduction of pollutants into a POTW that will pass through the treatment works or otherwise be incompatible with such works
        > Improve opportunities to recycle and reclaim municipal and industrial wastewaters and sludges.

        So, I’m a Sewer Cop. I can’t arrest you, but I can shut you down, shut off your water, and dig up your sewer line. Then I’ll send you a fine for up to $10,000/day/violation.

        I’ve been in the field since 1982 and could talk about it all day, but if you’re interested in this small section of environmental regulation, look at the linked document.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Congrats!!

        In my line of work, this would be wastewater management, so I am also interested to find out.

    4. LPUK*

      Congratulations!! My Bro-in-law is currently living this hell – trying to do a vacant job as well as his own while the government department keeps promising it WILL be filled – I think he’s also around the 2 year mark and counting. So there may still be hope for him as well!

    6. Generic Name*

      Oooh! Congrats! I interned at a factory one summer, and I thought their industrial pretreatment facility was fascinating. Chemistry in action!

      1. Free Meerkats*

        This reply is late, but I was away all weekend.

        Butler is still around and seems to have taken well to the new employee. Plus, our critter cam has caught two more cats who are apparently living under the trailer with him.

  15. Flaxseed*

    The manager that I work with has become increasingly hostile towards me- the way he talks to me is not how he would talk to anyone else. The problem is, he only does this when we’re alone. When our boss or someone else is present, he acts all friendly and nice. I feel like I’m going nuts!

    He has seniority over me and always tells me to “smile” because I “look upset”. I don’t feel like smiling- he’s a jerk! (I’m still professional, I just don’t go out of my way to socialize with him like some of my coworkers do. They look at me a little funny, but I don’t care. Too bad.)

    Has anyone experienced this? How did you handle this?

        1. Chai Tea*

          Ugh, I’m sorry. That sucks.

          There was an AAM letter about this (a woman who’s male boss kept telling her to smile.) and there was some good language.

          I think you’re bigger issue is that he’s being nasty to you when people aren’t around. Do you have to spend one on one time with him? And is he your direct manager? I agree with the suggestion below to document.

        2. JustaTech*

          Ugh. Right now I’d be tempted to say “I’m smiling under my mask!” in a very chipper tone.

          I hate the smile thing, and there are so few workplace-acceptable ways to deal with it.

          An engineer friend of mine got the “smile” comment from one of her peers in grad school. So she bared her teeth at him in something that might have technically been a smile but really looked like she was about to rip his throat out with her teeth. The “smile” thing never came up again. (Sadly, this is only barely acceptable in grad school and wouldn’t work in most of the business world.)

    2. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

      My last manager was like this. You would need to check your state laws on this one but I recorded our 1:1s and documented everything. Our HR team was overwhelmed and unlikely to resolve the issue, but I did it anyway for my own piece of mind, and eventually left the job.

      I’d advocate for putting your foot down, but the power dynamics make it tricky, which is why I was really careful with what I said to my manager. I ultimately decided to take the approach that would require less emotional labor/effort on my end but still suggest that I didn’t approve of her behavior. If she said something disrespectful or inappropriate, I would either ask her to clarify, which often prompted her to ramble and trip over herself, or sometimes I wouldn’t say anything and let my silence or a brisk “Hmm” communicate my disapproval.

      If he tells you to smile, don’t. If he remarks that you look upset, you can say that his comments are making you uncomfortable and you prefer that you keep the conversation about the work. I don’t know how manipulative he is, but use your best judgement and act accordingly and document everything!

    3. juneybug*

      Maybe he thinks you don’t like him and is lashing out? Not the best response as a manager but he doesn’t sound very mature in the first place.
      Immediate plan: Could you try to socialize more? Fake interest in his life? Stand in the group while they are talking and nod? Basically play the game (and yes I need a shower for typing that statement).
      Possible plan: Could you drop a bug in HR’s ear to have microaggression training for the workplace?
      Long term plan: Do you think your career can handle having him as a supervisor? Will his personal feelings towards you prevent career advancement? Pay raises? If so, it’s time to start looking.
      I am sorry you are going through this. Good luck!

      1. Flaxseed*

        I’ve tried to socialize more and sometimes he would respond, other times he would change the topic or walk away. He’s moody, so it’s difficult to judge how he’s going to be acting. (Whether he wants to talk or not.) He says things to get a reaction, so I ‘m trying to train myself on not reacting.

        1. Marthooh*

          Ugh. It sounds like he’s going to do whatever he feels like, no matter what you do. I think you should stop trying to manage his behavior. Just think of him as something you get paid to put up with*, and do the rest of your job as well as you can.

          * And I bet you don’t get paid enough for this nonsense!

          1. Flaxseed*

            I think that I make him nervous or something because he seems awkward around me and like he’s trying to impress me. Other times if I go out of my way to be nice and smile, he maybe thinks that I like him? I don’t know. It’s confusing and I really don’t have the energy or training to figure it all out. Yes, you’re correct- I don’t get paid enough to deal with all of this.

            1. PollyQ*

              I very much doubt it’s something you’re causing in any way by your behavior. He just sounds like a jackass.

        2. juneybug*

          Thank you for responding back to our comments. It’s always nice to connect with the writer as well get more info about the situation.
          It sounds like you have tried so hard to make this work relationship become better. It speaks highly of your character that you seek advice and tried to fix the situation.
          You deserve better than this and we all look forward to hearing your good news on Friday story how you were able to move forward from this man-child (new job, promotion at same company, etc.).

      2. pancakes*

        I don’t think it’s advisable to play along with the warped and sexist expectations of someone like this. He’s not entitled to have his insecurities pandered to by women subordinate to him, he’s not entitled to monologue about how women’s appearances make him feel, and being polite and professional doesn’t require feigning interest in managing his insecurities.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d handle it by looking for a new job. Life is too short for this crap.
      But most people have to stay in place until something else comes up.

      He probably has figured out you think he is a jerk. Unfortunately for him as a manager he has to put that to one side and still be a good boss to you. Not everyone likes their boss, that is just a fact of life.

      I would be sorely tempted to ask him if he would tell me to smile if I was male. But perhaps you can blow it off with, “I will if you will.”

      It sounds like your coworkers are buttering him up by socializing with him. Not everyone takes this route but enough people do chose to butter up the cranky boss. Because you say that you don’t care, I think that is another reason to start searching. I know when I reach a point that I don’t care what my cohorts think, I am probably done.

      1. Flaxseed*

        My one coworker (She compares him to her son- I think that just misses her children because they live out of the country) is always bringing him food- she acts like he’s the next best thing since sliced bread. Yes, he can be very charming and social when he wants to be.

        Otherwise he is like an angry man-baby. I call him out on his behavior, which he doesn’t like, but too bad. I’ve been through this before with a manager like this and the only thing that worked was to find a new job. (I tried everything in a previous job to work it out- from bringing food to meeting with our boss and nothing worked. I left and then 6 months later, so did my former manager.)

        1. valentine*

          It’s worth speaking to your boss about it. I’d stop making overtures because he sounds like he has a thing for you and will use your attempts to say you want him, but he turned you down and you’re retaliating.

          You might ask the other young women if he’s privately hostile to them.

    5. Thankful for AAM*

      Not exactly what you asked but Ryan Dowd has a webinar about getting hit on at work (you can google for it). It includes what to say when someone says “smile, you’d be prettier, etc. He says to interrupt their script, they expect you to react x way. If you say with no emotion other than bland nothingness, my smile/appearance are not relevant right now, can I help you with anything or do you need anything else from me for the reports, etc, it will change the dynamic.

      But overall, I’m sorry your boss is that way. It has taken a while but I follow AAM advice to watch the drama like it is a play, get out the mental popcorn and enjoy the show. That has helped me. Good luck with the job search.

  16. Tuckerman*

    I knew my employer required we go on FMLA for illness absences longer than 5 days, but I didn’t realize that they required it for more than 5 total absences in a year, related to a single illness. I’m not sure if that is intended as benefit to employees (job protection). Any thoughts on this? We get a ton of paid sick time, so while FMLA is unpaid leave, I’ll be able to use sick time to get paid (I’m exempt). This just surprised me. Private, not-for-profit University, if that helps.

    1. Mockingjay*

      I think this is intermittent FMLA. I have a family member who uses it because of a chronic illness. It allows her to take off for appointments or call out sick on bad days throughout the year when she has already used up her leave.

    2. Annony*

      Since you are allowed to use your sick time it doesn’t sound like they are trying to penalize you. Maybe this is their way to make sure that policies are applied evenly to all employees? How do they know the absences are for the same illness? Are you required to give that much detail when using a sick day?

    3. IsItOverYet?*

      I’m at a community college and we only do this if it’s going to be ongoing absences – like if someone knows they will have to be out regularly for an ongoing issue. In the end it has the same result mostly: you would have to use sick to take the days off anyway and get paid, so instead the school is filling FML and you are still using sick time to get paid, but it seems like extra paper work for everyone. Also, unless you tell them, how do they know that all 5+ absences are for the same thing? (Actually we just at an FML use debate yesterday)

    4. HR Bee*

      This isn’t an “Employer required” thing as much as its a “law required” thing. If the company knows or has a reasonable belief to know that your illness may quality for FMLA, they are required by law to give you notice of your rights and responsibilities under the FMLA.

      1. fhgwhgads*

        It makes sense to me they’d be required to inform you about FMLA rights and responsibilities, but not that they’d require you to take it. Like, say I have a chronic condition that I know means I’d use at least five sick days a year. Well, I get 10 annually, so that’s fine. Say I also know I intend to have a baby within the next year. I want to use FMLA for that. If I’m already being forced to use intermittent FMLA for the other thing, I won’t have it available to me when I would’ve preferred to use the whole 12 weeks post-baby.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is to protect you both.

      This puts on record you have a condition that’s covered under FMLA and that they can’t start penalizing you if you do need to take more than your allotted sick time.

      It is indeed “intermittent” FMLA. Such as “I have chronic migraines which may require me to miss more than 5 days in a year.” They will let you use PAID leave regardless of your FMLA status! My mom had to take it for my dad and they paid her vacation time, sick time and then FMLA “unpaid” status kicked in. But it was for job protection and also transparency/fairness on a business level. So that the everyone is held to the same standards moving forward.

      My gyno has a notice up for pregnancy about getting your FMLA paperwork in ASAP so that it’s on record, it shouldn’t be left until the minute you actually need to utilize it [if possible, pregnancy or chronic conditions are different kettle of fish, unlike sudden treatments for a new diagnosis.]

    6. MacGillicuddy*

      How do they know that the intermittent absences are the same cause? Don’t people just say they’re taking a sick day? The details are none of the manager’s business.
      Or is your company somehow getting details of the reason for your sick days? I would think that’s some sort of privacy violation.

  17. RestResetRule*

    Yesterday we had a Zoom team meeting and when my boss shared her screen, we all saw that she had just been on Pinterest while someone else had been talking. She’s a great boss, so I don’t care, but it definitely made me realize bosses are human too, and we all get bored during Zoom calls haha

    1. RBG yeah you know me*

      We’ve exchanged the legal pad and blue pen doodles for Pinterest :) but at least it looks like you’re taking notes. As long as she’s not pinning ‘How to fire everyone at one time’ you should be good to go.

      1. JustaTech*

        After my boss IM’d a coworker during a meeting (where the coworker was presenting) “Don’t take the bait!” and everyone saw it (and then heard the boss swearing softly as he tried to make it go away), we’ve all been very careful to only share a specific program (spreadsheet, slide deck, email, document) rather than sharing everything.

    3. ArtsNerd*

      Me: close out resume, cover letter drafts, job search tabs, hides bookmarks. *Shares screen*
      Something’s odd in my coworker’s tone of voice….
      Then I notice my “Job Search” Finder shortcut is riiiiight there. Oops!

  18. yala*

    So…got a call from HR this week. I’d had my annual review a couple months back and gotten “needs improvement” (which…I’m still pretty frustrated about that, for a number of reasons). But payroll had apparently given me a “market raise” of fifty cents back in July, and it turns out because of the review, they shouldn’t have done that. So “we need that money back” and they’ll be taking the extra money out of my next too paychecks.

    …this coming about two months before a move, which is already going to be So. EXPENSIVE.

    I’m pretty pissed off. Like, I get it. Glitches happen and all. A bad review means no raise (though I’m still upset that my work has “improved, but not enough” when there’s nearly six months of painted teapots that haven’t gone through quality control. But I really wasn’t expecting anything else).

    But I’m still pissed.

    1. Ashley*

      I am not sure they can retroactively change your pay like that. I mean the first week I could see a we made a mistake, but two-three months? That sounds like that was your agreed upon pay rate.

      1. yala*

        I’m not sure who to even ask about that, though.

        My guess is there was probably something in the paperwork I signed however long ago that specified that raises are dependent on performance that could justify taking it back.

        If it was just changing my pay back, I wouldn’t be so upset. But they’re taking something like $75 out of my next two paychecks (each) to “pay it back.”

        But also, I don’t know that $150 is worth trying to fight for, if trying to do that might just Make Things Worse.

        1. Annony*

          My guess it that it is not actually legal. But it does make sense that $150 may not be worth the fight to you right now. You say that you are moving. Are you also leaving this job? If not, I think you should start looking. $150 may not be worth fighting over, but their actions are a significant breach of trust. Next time there could be much more money on the line.

          1. yala*

            No, just to a different apartment.

            I’ve been there for years and this is the first time anything like this has happened. I think it’s an understandable glitch. I really can’t think of another job that would let me do the kind of work I do, or give me the kind of stability this one (usually) has. Not in town, anyway.

            I feel like if I stick it out, I can pass and get that raise next year. Maybe. Probably not. But I legit don’t know what else to do, and I like most of the things about it. :/

            1. Observer*

              It may be worth going back to HR and saying “I don’t think it’s legal to make that change retroactive. I realize it was given in error, and of course you can rescind it going forward. But changing the pay scale retroactively and taking it out of my checks is probably illegal, and could get us into trouble.”

              The *US* is important as you want to indicate a collaborative intent. Also, if they say something like “Who is checking anyway?” you could respond with something like “Hopefully no one. But if anything ever triggers some sort of government audit down the line, like if someone else complains about something, this would show up.”

              Since you sincerely don’t intend to do to the government at this point, it’s best for you to make that clear without acting as though you think they are acting in bad faith.

      2. Bostonian*

        It’s not the same as retroactively changing pay. They can fix the mistake, but you can request that the amount they need to take back be spread out over more than 2 paychecks since it sounds like that would be a significant amount if they’ve been overpaying for months.

      3. Bibliovore*

        yup legal and they can do it. I was over paid for six months. The first paycheck I got, I called the finance dept. and they said no, its right. I KNEW it was wrong. The second paycheck, I called and they said, stop calling us. Six months later, I get a call. They were going to deduct the overpayment from the next paycheck. I fought with them and then for two years, $50 came out of every paycheck.

    2. WellRed*

      If you make so little that 50 cents an hour is considered a raise, make sure their recoupment doesn’t take you below minimum wage.

      1. Betty*

        My company’s minimum annual raise is 2.5%. For someone making $42,000 per year, 2.5% would be equal to 50 cents per hour.

        1. yala*

          Minimum annual raise? Man, that sounds nice.

          We weren’t getting any for a while, and then they put a new system in, where if you were making under a certain amount, it would be 4%, then 3% for the next tier up, then 2.5%

          I don’t know what regular raises are supposed to look like (we certainly never got them at the public library), but little bits add up. An extra $40 a month would’ve gone a long way.

          1. yala*

            It comes out to a little more than an extra thousand a year.

            …. i really wish i hadn’t done the math on that just now…

    3. juneybug*

      I would check your state’s laws about “wage overpayment recoupment”. Some states require advance notice, payment plan, if your hourly pay can go below minimum wage or not, etc.
      You can also call your state’s labor department and ask. In Washington state, it’s Department of Labor and Industries.
      Good luck!

        1. ADHDAnon*

          Fun fact- while you probably agreed to repay them, in theory, in the direct deposit, since it is direct deposit, federal law says they can’t claw $ deposited back without your agreement to the terms in writing.

          Also, watch for the impact on your taxes, SSI, Medicare, retirement, etc. since those are proportionate to your salary, they need to fix those retroactively too.

          I’ve been there with the accidental overpay and it was a huge PItA to get it fixed.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      As it was their error, not yours, push back. Agree that they can adjust your pay going forward, but ask that they waive the overpayment, citing hardship. Worth a try. (We are big enough that we actually have a procedure for this.)

    5. mynameisasecret*

      I feel your pain yala. I recently found out that I owed my company $4,000 in PTO (basically I tried to take unpaid medical leave and they said No No, we will pay you and figure it out later! And when later came it was … me owing them $4000). We came up with a really good compromise for me to pay it back, and I’m grateful for that, but OOOF, I was not expecting that financial setback, and I am about to move too.
      I am the tiniest bit irritated that it wasn’t just forgiven, given that I was paid out of PPP funds for that time, and those will be forgiven by the government, so it didn’t cost the company a dime. But.. anyway, I feel your pain.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Some of these incidents seem really illegal… I’m hoping Alison comes in late to read.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            A request since this is increasing in frequency — I’d prefer people not use links as a way to ask me to comment on things in the open threads (as opposed to flagging something that needs moderator attention). It’s not the purpose of moderation or the open threads, and it ends up being a demand on my time that I often can’t meet. The open threads are in part a break for me. (And if lots of people do this, it will really mess up the moderation queue.) For things people want my input on, they should submit it as a question for publication rather than use the open threads. Thank you!

  19. W8ING*

    Hi all, happy Friday! Just wanted to ask based on your experiences:

    How long is too long to wait for an update about a raise?

    I’ve brought it up in the beginning of the month, and was told that management will “review and have an answer for me next week” when I ask if they have any updates. It’s now the end of the month, and I’m still getting the run around… while my new responsibilities just get piled hire and hire.

    Would love to know your thoughts!

    1. Annony*

      Generally, waiting a week longer than they estimated would be reasonable. They really should either have an answer for you or be able to tell you why they don’t.

      1. Viette*

        I agree with that. Especially because you’re doing the work. You don’t want to be asking every day, but they gave you a week as an estimate and have now way overshot that.

    2. Goat girl*

      I can’t answer your question, but at my last employer (with annual revenue in the billions), to ask about a raise was to ask to be put on the layoff list. So I am really envious of those of you who can do this.

      1. Kowalski! Options!*

        I have been, especially for calls and making videos. What I found worked was to use a smaller clip-on light ring, then put the phone or laptop higher up, then bend the light down so that it’s aiming at the crown of my head, not hitting me directly in the glasses.

        If it’s really dark outside, I’ll position the bigger ring light (AKA the ring light that makes me look like I’m being kidnapped by alien donuts) on the darker side of my face, usually by balancing it precariously on a stack of books.

    2. hillary*

      I can see my colleague’s ring light reflected in his glasses – he looks better without it on. I don’t know if he has any coatings on the glasses.

  21. Potatoes gonna potate*

    My current job is 100% remote. We have a time clock on the employee side and another time clock to track work tasks for clients and other office work. Clients aren’t billed by the hour but we still have to track how long we spend on something for them to determine future billing rates etc. It was like this at my last firm too so I’m not unfamiliar with this, but the time tracking just wasn’t as strictly enforced for employees.

    Anyways, its taken me some used to clocking out the every few minutes I’m not working. I now clock out every time I: go to the bathroom, go downstairs to grab a drink, take a quick phone call, eat my food, talk to hubby, etc. Basically, all those minutes add up and to get to an 8-hour shift on the client time clock, I end up having to be at my desk for 10+ hours.

    At my last job we used the same software for hte same reason but it just wasn’t enforced as strictly for employees. No one got in trouble if you stayed clocked in to admin if you got up to chat with a colleague or go to the kitchen and grab a drink. We’re allowed to use admin but I have to be careful as I really don’t have much admin related work to do.

    The job is great, so i’m not complaining about that, just struggling with this.

    TLDR, basically every minute has to be accounted for. Is this normal with working remotely now and has anyone else had the same struggles?

    1. Kiitemso*

      I used to work a call center job where “on call or available to take call” time was counted by software but even then they allowed some leeway and extra breaks. We didn’t have to hit 8hrs on a 8 hour shift since 30min would be lunch and a couple of breaks would be around 20min. So while it was strange, it wasn’t inhumane like your system sounds like.

    2. WellRed*

      A job that makes you clock out to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water? I’ll take your word for it that it’s a great job but. Yeah.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I can’t say they make me, but I do it myself. My manager had to have a conversation with me that my hours on the time clock weren’t making sense with my output and that I shouldn’t have so much time coded to admin (which is what I would do when I took a few minutes). Obvs for lunch or any longer break I’d clock out. Maybe its an over-correction on my part.

        Anyways, maybe it’s too soon to tell..everything else seems to be fine. I just don’t know if it’s normal to be under more scrutiny. I was working remotely for a few days before being part of COVID cutback.

        1. Fulana del Tal*

          You’re ignoring very important feedback from your manager and focusing on something else. They are expecting more work to be done in the amount of time/ not meeting expectations. If they already had this conversation with you this soon you need to focus on that.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            I’m not sure if I understand where you’re getting that interpretation. It’s not that I don’t believe you, only that I can’t follow the translation from “you’re coding too much time as admin” into “you’re not working fast enough/your production didn’t meet expectations.” Can you explain why you think it means that?

            1. Disco Janet*

              Not the person who originally said it, but I see why. Her manager said that her time clock hours don’t align with her output. I would assume that means they expect work to be completed at a quicker pace.

    3. Veronica*

      Does the time policy say you have to clock out to go to the bathroom? I only clock out when I’m taking a long break or switching to a kid or family task I wouldn’t be doing at the office. I find I often figure out the best approach to solve a client problem when I’m sitting in the quiet bathroom. So, yeah, I charge for that. Basically if it’s a needed to do the job it counts. You need to stand up and move in order to be more efficient for the job.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Separating between home task vs office task, that makes a lot of sense. But what would I even code it to? I was putting everything non-client to “admin” before and my manager wasn’t happy with that, but then I didn’t clarify that my admin hours also included going downstairs or stepping away…..

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          That would be a question for your manager, I think! When I’ve had to track time I never included quick bathroom breaks or even getting up to get a drink. The general theory is that I’m still thinking about the work, but it’s also 30 seconds or so and really insignificant. Have you asked your boss flat out how to handle short necessary breaks, like going to the bathroom or getting a drink of water?

            1. AnonyMs.*

              If you don’t ask, though, you risk getting it completely wrong and causing some kind of conflict with your manager. Frame it like this: “You know, I’m still getting used to the time-keeping system here and I want to make sure I’m doing it correctly. I feel like I should know this, but should I clock out for quick breaks like going to the bathroom and getting a coffee?”

              You feel like you should know this, but

            2. AvonLady Barksdale*

              If you don’t ask, though, you risk getting it completely wrong and causing some kind of conflict with your manager. Frame it like this: “You know, I’m still getting used to the time-keeping system here and I want to make sure I’m doing it correctly. I feel like I should know this, but should I clock out for quick breaks like going to the bathroom and getting a coffee?”

              You feel like you should know this, but you don’t, so you have to ask. Don’t keep guessing and risk getting it completely wrong. If they’ve spoken to you about this already, you need to seek clarification and the best source for that is your boss.

        2. kt*

          I don’t know if this fits your office norms, but… I’d pee occasionally on BigCorp’s account. Or grab water. After all, I do have thoughts while in the bathroom or walking to the kitchen :)

          When I was working by the hour I really needed to adjust, and realize that given my rates it was fine to charge “walking around the block while thinking about the software” as well as “fingers are connected to keyboard, typing”. I would not put it all on one customer’s account — I’d spread it out equally-ish. I feel like you may have overcorrected. But it also sounds like there might be some other things to think about.

          1. Potatoes gonna potate*

            lol at my last job I used to joke that I get paid to poop. I never clocked out for bathroom or any other breaks unless I knew beforehand they were going to be more htan 15 minutes. And that was perfectly fine. But again that was in-office.

    4. Coenobita*

      Is it really every minute? And by that I mean – do you have a set billing interval? When I worked in consulting, we billed by the half-hour, so if you did billable work for 27 minutes and then got up and chatted about the weather with someone for 3 minutes, whatever, that’s half an hour billed to the client. We were basically never allowed to use admin codes, but we still had a relatively sane working environment and time-tracking never took over your whole day.

    5. Annie Moose*

      If you’re in the middle of doing something and get up to go to the bathroom for a couple of minutes, I wouldn’t bother either clocking out or coding it as admin time–I would just code it as part of whatever my broader task was. If it’s under, say, 10 minutes then it’s not really long enough to make a distinction IMO.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Something is not making sense to me here. If you get a half hour for lunch and 2 – 15 minute breaks that would mean it takes you 9 hours to do an 8 hour day. So where is that 10th hour going to? I bet a chunk of that 10th hour is used up just clocking in and out.

      For your own sanity, find out how to handle this correctly. You maybe over compensating or you may work for jerks. I can’t tell. There’s only one thing that can make a person feel more humble than asking a basic question and that is waiting MONTHS to ask that same basic question. Ask now, get it clarified. This will not get better on its own.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        There’s no set time for the breaks but generally it’s a 1 hour break. but we’re allowed to take 2-3 hour breaks as long as the hours are made up within the day/current week. During my interview/onboarding I was told that set hours are 9-6 but it’s flexible…which I took to mean, I can log in at 830 or 930 and leave accordingly…

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          I think you have to get out of the mindset of “I took to mean.” You may be right, but you also want to make sure you establish open lines of communication with your boss. This is especially critical since you started remotely– makes it tougher, but also gives you more opportunities to ask questions because the norms have shifted. There is nothing wrong with saying, “Can you define flexible?” or, “Is it ok to log in at 9:30 and out at 6:30?”

          You’re new. You’re supposed to ask these questions. Every workplace is different– you’re 1000x better off asking, even if it sounds silly to you, than assuming and getting it wrong.

    7. PollyQ*

      Are you actually required to have 8 billable hours per day? I haven’t worked in this particular setup, but in past jobs, project managers assumed that people in my role would have 5 “functional” hours a day, with the rest of the time taken up with meetings, administrivia, breaks, etc.

    8. Generic Name*

      As others have said, I’d check with your manager on how you are expected to charge your time. I work billable hours as well. Our minimum increment we track is 15 minutes. So if I’m working on the Kitten, Inc. report and need to use the restroom/refill my water, I’ll step away for a few minutes to take care of that, but I don’t clock out or count that as “admin” time. It gets wrapped into the overall time I spent on that project. For example, from 8 am to 10:15 I spent writing a report, but I had to step away for my desk for a few minutes in the middle, I would still enter the time in my timesheet as 2.25 hours to Kitten, Inc.

      This is the second job I’ve had where I bill hours, and they both handled various small breaks in this manner. I understand it might feel different because you are remote, but normal workplaces understand that you need to attend to your personal physical needs during the day and don’t make you clock out for those regardless of whether you are in an office or at home.

  22. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

    Tl;dr: What is the best way to encourage or even teach initiative in a co-worker?

    I’ve been thinking a lot about my colleague since I am going on a long maternity leave next year (12 months, possibly more). We work as a team, collaborating a lot and thus communicate throughout the day. I’ve noticed that despite being in this job for 9 months now, she still seems very unsure about many things she should know for sure by now and lacks initiative.

    If she’s unsure, she doesn’t do anything. Sometimes she asks me but her questions don’t include any direction that she thinks she might go in. Ie if there’s an email in our shared inbox that she doesn’t know which department to send to, she might write me an instant message “Did you notice the strange email from Oatmeal Cuts in our inbox? I’m unsure about it.” and I might either just flat-out tell her where to send it, or try to ask questions to direct her to the right conclusion. Or if there’s a message from a customer that doesn’t contain a lot of information, she will again write to me, “They don’t say which grain porridge they want, hmm.” instead of emailing the person and asking the information we need, ie. “Hi, this is a general information inbox for Rolled Oats. What type of grain porridge were you looking for, so we can direct this to the right department.”

    Now in my every day life this is low key annoying but fine. But when I leave for maternity leave, she can’t go around asking the brand new temp for confirmation on half of her tasks. An added wrinkle – our boss has only been managing us for 5 months and thus has no idea about the minute details about our work. So my colleague could ask our boss but she would only be referring to the instructions I wrote up about the job, as she doesn’t follow our day-to-day work that closely.

    Can anything be done about this on my end? Do I just resign to the fact she’s an uncertain person who lacks initiative and when I’m gone, it’s not my problem? She doesn’t make many mistakes so I don’t know where this uncertainty stems from. If she does mess up it’s minor and can be fixed with a quick apology email. I try to be encouraging but it seems condescending to be like “You got this, just send it to where you think it fits best” on a random question about an odd email.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Stop fixing things for her now. “Hmm, this is strange!” “Sure is. People, right?” and go back to what you were doing.

      Depending on your relationship, you might also point out, “Hey, you know I’m about to be gone for a year and you’re going to be the one with seniority – have a little more faith in yourself,” or some such. Possibly also give the boss a heads up that this is still a thing, see if boss has any suggestions (or at least make boss aware of the situation).

      But ultimately, no, when you go on maternity leave (and congrats!), her dawdling is not your problem :)

      1. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

        Thanks for replying. When I tell my manager about my maternity leave (have to get my ducks in a row first) I will definitely talk about my colleague and my concerns. One of my friends suggested that some people thrive under pressure, so maybe when I’m gone and she has to figure it all out on her own, she will.

        My problem with rebuffing the questions is that this may ultimately mean those tasks fall on me because she doesn’t act. I’ve tried the tactic a few times, she did nothing due to uncertainty and then I had to do them myself because we need to deal with things fast (within the day at least). But maybe I should just feign ignorance, “Oh this stumps me, you figure it out!” or even just direct her to my written instructions, “Hmm what did my guide to sorting emails say about stuff like this?”.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          If she’s just sitting on time-sensitive stuff and won’t even try to figure it out, then yeah, I’d definitely alert your manager to that, unrelated to the maternity leave part. “As you know, our turnaround time on goose juggling inquiries is 24 hours, but when Lucinda opens inquiries she’s not sure about, she just leaves them to sit instead of processing them. I’ve shared the processing document with her a couple of times now, so I’m not sure what the hold-up is.”

        2. Faith*

          Instead of you emailing the person to ask the question (and therefore fixing it for her) you could try suggesting to her what she should do to solve the issue/get rid of the uncertainty. “Did you try emailing them to find out what they wanted?” or even “If you’re not sure, you should just contact them directly and ask for clarification.”

    2. Mockingjay*

      I think you need to bring your manager in on this. Not “get in her trouble,” rather “let’s plan for my maternity leave now.”

      “Boss, there’s several areas that Lucinda doesn’t seem confident enough to manage while I’m out. Options: train Lucinda, bring in a temp, borrow Wakeen from the other department because he has experience in our tasks. What do you think?”

      Give your boss some options, based on critical tasks and knowledge required to execute. Do you really think Lucinda can/will master your tasks, or is she a worker-bee employee who prefers to have complete assignments handed to her? In the latter case, you probably need someone else to cover for you.

      Your new boss doesn’t need to know your tasks step-by-step; she does need to know the impact of your leave and whether Lucinda can cover for you.

      1. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

        This is really good perspective, thanks. I will use it when I talk to my boss, probably next week or the week after. I think maybe she can do it? This is what I wonder – does she ask because it’s so easy to ask, or does she have such deep anxiety that she can’t act before gaining certainty on something? To an extent she has subbed me when I was on leave a few times but I did always note that we had more “what to do” messages to our old boss in our shared inbox’s Sent folder when I came back. So she did ask ExBoss for info that she would have normally asked me, maybe just not as much.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          In your OP you said She doesn’t make many mistakes so I don’t know where this uncertainty stems from and here, that you are not sure of her motivation: is she being lazy or is it driven by anxiety?

          I think your first point has cause and effect the wrong way round. She doesn’t make many mistakes because she sees to it that she doesn’t have the opportunities to make them (i.e. the uncertainty drives the lack of mistakes, in that sense).

          It seems clear to me, without wanting to armchair diagnose, that this is driven by anxiousness (not necessarily clinical) of some sort, rather than laziness or “it’s just easier to have Oatmeal Baby Bump answer it”.

          I say that for 2 reasons – 1) that when you were away before, those “what to do” messages went to your boss, rather than her (if it was just easier to ask usually) sucking up like “well, I’m going to have to find this out myself, grrrr”. Someone just being lazy wouldn’t repeat that behaviour to the ExBoss. 2) she freezes and doesn’t act in the case that you go back to her with something like “yeah, customer was a bit unclear about that!”

          That anxiousness could be caused by something in a past job (like how mistakes were handled), just a general personality trait, or something going on in her personal life, or any other number of reasons… it probably isn’t very useful to speculate as ultimately it doesn’t really change her behaviour even if it does explain it!

          Do you typically just take on the thing for her instead of helping her figure it out? Maybe yes, since it sounds like they are time sensitive so it seems like a waste of time to be ‘coaching’ when you could just clear the thing from the joint inbox and then move on to the next urgent thing. But (I’ve been there!) I think that does her, yourself, and your company a bit of a disservice ultimately.

          I agree with the other comments that this needs to be discussed with your manager, with the context above in mind.

          How long do you have before your maternity leave? You said it was next year but that could be anything from January to June sort of time, it would be helpful perhaps to have an idea of how long you might have to turn this situation around.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I so agree.

            I would just tell her that in a bit she will be on her own. She needs to practice what it will be like not having you there. Tell her it’s okay to ask questions but you want her to offer a couple thoughts on what she should do with each question she asks you. In other words she can’t just leach off of your brain, she has to pull some thoughts together. You can even go as far as saying that you won’t answer any questions that do not show a suggestion or two from her.

            From the sounds of it you are doing her job for her but she gets the paycheck.

          2. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

            I don’t typically just take the thing (maybe 5% of the time I do), but for the sake of quickness I don’t coach the answer out of her, because it just seems to lead her to spiral into further uncertainty, so I typically just tell her what to do or answer her hunch “Should I send this [spirulina inquiry] to Jane?” “Yes, all spirulina inquiries go to Jane.”

            I agree it has to be anxiety based, so you’re right about the cause/effect thing. When I do correct her on her mistakes I try to keep my tone breezy and just let her know a way forward, in case she has this anxiety about making mistakes.

            My leave starts in late-Feb so there’s still about 5 months.

            1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

              Ah, actually I’d lump in “just telling her what to do” with taking on the thing for her, as it’s basically the same (since at that point she is just carrying out your instructions rather than thinking for herself), so really it may be much more of the time than 5%!

              5 months isn’t that long, especially as (I feel like, not sure if you’ve had the same experience) time seems to be flying by these days: here we are almost in October, and the last thing I clearly remember was in March and everything has been a bit of a blur since then…

              But, I think 5 months is still enough time to turn things around – if you act now, and especially get your manager on-side.

              My suggestion, which I’m conscious probably isn’t the majority opinion, would be to try to (to some degree, not deep rooted psychological issues etc) get to the bottom of what exactly is motivating her to act like this. It seems clear that she isn’t just being lazy, and I infer that she wants to do a good job and to perform well… so much so that she’d rather not act if there’s any sort of uncertainty, but she seems to be approaching that from the perspective that there’s an in-built security net (i.e. you!) that she can always fall back on, and who can smooth out things if there is ever a problem with a customer etc.

              I sense that your boss probably isn’t aware at the moment of how much she is still dependent on you for answers, and probably assumes that she is operating independently on most things at this stage, so boss will of course be planning for a ‘temp’ to take on the (lower level?) more easily accessible things and for your colleague to deputize for you whilst you are out.

    3. NW Mossy*

      This is really difficult to do as a co-worker/teammate, because it really falls to your shared boss to do this – it’s literally their job to coach and give their staff feedback, and they’re the ones given the appropriate organizational authority of carrots and sticks to drive the right behaviors. You can certainly share your observations with your boss, but that’s as far as your involvement needs to go. Whether she sinks, swims, or treads water until you fling her a buoy when you return, isn’t your responsibility.

      And speaking from my own experience, the combination of being absorbed in your tiny human and the disruptions to your normal life patterns will rapidly make work worries far easier to set down as “not my focus at this time.”

      1. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

        Thanks for replying; I will clue in my boss. Oh for sure, the first week of maternity leave I may ponder it but once the baby gets here (my first!) I will be preoccupied with my actual life, not any petty work problems they may be having without me.

    4. AnonReader*

      I have that issue with a direct report – he does exactly what is asked and no more. Never volunteers info, never anticipates related questions. Very interested in suggestions here!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is a different problem because OP’s cohort is letting OP do all the work.

        It almost sounds like your employee is trying to some point.
        When I first started working, I had a boss sit me down and tell me that it’s fine to ask questions. My current boss laughs, she said that I always had questions and remarkably it was never the same question twice. Our work does not lend itself well to not asking questions. There’s always questions. You may tell him that he is not asking questions and it is not only okay but that you EXPECT him to ask questions.

        Regarding volunteering info- you may have to give him a short list of information he needs to share with you, without you having to ask each and every time. Tell him that you will be adding to the list.

        It could be he had a toxic boss who verbally slammed him every time he opened his mouth. Or maybe he has a toxic family, who’s to know. But these are your expectations and tell him that you will be watching to see if he is asking questions and volunteering information. Tell him it is part of the job and he must learn to do these things on a regular basis.

        For your part in this, don’t be surprised that his questions are basic, at least at the start. A person cannot shut themselves off from the world around them and still learn lots of stuff. It just doesn’t work this way. So you will need to be patient and need to give thoughtful answers. Hopefully you can get him to make a shift in what he is doing.

      2. All the cats 4 me*

        My question would be whether your employee has expressed interest or ambition in growing the current role or moving to a new one? If not, it may be because employee is content to do the job as is, and isn’t interested in expanding the role or career growth.

        If employee does want to grow, or reach a higher pay level, etc. My take on this is that this is a teaching opportunity. “To grow in this role, ideally I would see you taking initiative to think through the process and anticipate efficiencies and opportunities, and to implement (or strategize…) them…”.

    5. mynameisasecret*

      Replying to this thread really late, but I have experience being the coworker who lacks initiative. Although I can’t speak for your employee, for me it is because I worked at a toxic workplace where very, very small nuances and details would be called out as serious errors that reflected on your credibility and trustworthiness as a person. So for instance, I would email out information on insurance renewal, and would end with “Feel free to contact me if you have any questions!” Then an executive would ‘flag’ that they ‘had an ouch’ when they read the term “Feel free” because it makes it sound like I thought they wouldn’t or shouldn’t feel free to do so, when they would and should. This would become a discussion about how we generally communicate/treat each other in the workplace, and the communal conclusion would be, “People in operations need to not make assumptions about what other people know and who they should ask, and need to be more respectful of the fact that their job is to provide customer service to employees, it’s not an extra thing.” And the result would be that all emails on insurance information need to be vetted through the vice president of a separate department, and then the CEO, before being sent out. No email could ever make it through the approval, so my options were either no information would ever be sent out on insurance and I’d be in trouble for not doing my job, or send out THE PERFECT email without permission and if it 100% meets every possible requirement they could possibly have for phrasing, I won’t be in trouble (but otherwise I will). That’s if we were lucky – more often than not, a tiny quirk of phrasing that someone over-interpreted and took issue with would lead to a full re-org, in which operations was broken up among other teams and assigned new bosses and new tasks.
      I know this is a long example, but I’m unfortunately not exaggerating. It’s the sort of thing that I cant’ even find a word to describe, because ‘insane’ is downplaying it plus is an offensive ableist term and blah blah – see, I’ve been gone over a year and I still obsess over my phrasing.
      Although I’m not over it yet, the things that have helped are:
      1. My boss not freaking out when I do make a mistake – simply notifying me and allowing me to fix it. This is the toughest one, because my brain tells me “Yeah, she tells me I’m doing well and she tells me it’s okay to make mistakes and that she won’t freak out if/when I do, but that’s exactly what the last people said too,” so it’s like, each and every time, my brain assumes she’ll freak out, and if she did, my brain will tell me it’s proving everything I ever feared about her. (‘I KNEW you would betray me someday!’) Every time she doesn’t freak out, it gives me a slightly larger body of proof that it’s okay to make and fix mistakes.
      2. An environment in which people do not nit-pick phrasing and tone, decisions, etc
      3. an environment in which individual expertise is valued, rather than simply seniority (so a coordinator with a certification would be better qualified to advise on a topic specifically related to their certification than an exec who has never heard of the topic before)
      4. Accepting that I won’t always make the right decision, and that there are many (most?) decisions where it is literally impossible to know what the ‘best’ option would be, but it is still part of my job to make the decision.
      It sounds like you are already doing 1-3, but 4 can be helpful – even just stating to your coworker before you leave “A lot of times there is no right answer. Part of your job is to use the evidence you do have to make a choice that you feel comfortable defending if questioned. Sometimes you’ll make the wrong decision, but it’s expected that we all will do that sometimes, so have courage and make the decision.” Basically – giving her permission to make a decision even when there is a chance it might not be the same decision someone else would make. (And as much as you can, making sure those above you are not expecting employees to never make a mistake.)

      1. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

        Hey, first of all I’m sorry for your experience and I’m sure this has to an extent happened to my co-worker. I don’t think it’s happened at our company, as while there are some nuances to what we do, none of them are to do with phrasing or tone or word choices and both bosses we’ve had have been very encouraging and reasonable people.

        My own corrections to her have mostly been a simple breezy heads up, no berating her or blowing it out of proportion, and trying to offer explanations for why something is done better this way. If she does make a mistake, like I said, it’s usually “send X an apology to ignore it and forward the original email to Z instead”, again, no harm no foul, we all send an errant email sometimes.

        But your point 4 has given me a lot to think about, thank you!

    6. Wintergreen*

      Have you been training her for the last 9 months or start out training her? I know I tend to get stuck in the “training” brain and making the break into just doing the job. Especially since your examples are about shared work, in my mind it would make the break that much more fuzzy.

      Separate from the next ask, maybe say something like “You are doing really great work and my maternity leave is just around the corner, I think we really need to get the training wheels off so if something comes thru in the inbox you think you can handle, go for it.” and then if she asks about that Oatmeal Cuts or grain porridge email “Go ahead and handle how you think best, I’m still working on this new Steel Cut Oats report for manager” And then see how she handles it from there.

      1. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

        Yes, I did train her and during normal times we worked right next to each other in the office so she could ask in person. Maybe I did leave my training brain on..

        Your phrasing examples are great, thanks!

    7. Chaordic One*

      I can only imagine that in the past, when she has taken initiative and done the wrong thing she was probably scolded or maybe even shamed for having taken action and now she’s more afraid of doing something wrong, than of doing nothing. Encourage her to take action, and if she takes the wrong action, let her know and give her the opportunity to correct her mistakes without shaming her. As long as she doesn’t get someone killed, it probably isn’t a bit deal in the overall scheme of things.

  23. Zac Eisenstein*

    Is anyone familiar with background checks? I’m asking for a friend who lied on a background check.

    Let’s say a candidate gets offered a job. There are lots of different background check companies out there, but this employer specifically uses ABC Company for the background check. The candidate was knowingly dishonest on their job application/background check and listed a company they never worked at to cover up a year-gap. The candidate requested not to contact this company, but ABC requests a pay stub to verify that the candidate works there. The candidate doesn’t provide anything and hence ABC is unable to verify it, thus the candidate ultimately fails the check and doesn’t get the job. The candidate learns the hard way to always be honest and not lie during the job process.

    Let’s say the candidate is now truthful during their job search and happens to get a job offer later down the road from another company which also uses ABC Company for the background check. Will ABC Company still have a record of the OP failing the previous BC in their system? Being that the candidate is truthful and doesn’t list the company they never worked at on the new background check, will ABC note the discrepancy and ask the candidate something like, “Hey, you listed this employer on your old check but it’s not here now. Why is that?” Or is each new background check completely independent of the old?

    Just curious how the process works.

    1. HR Bee*

      The previous background check will be in ABC Company’s system, but they are not allowed to share it with a new company. The new background check should be independent of the old.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      The background check company will only share information they collected in the background check for the current company. They will not share results from a prior search with a different client.

    3. Formerly in HR*

      I think each background check is performed independently. After all, they are paid for by different clients and the providers should not just save efforts and use an old result. Also, things change between applications. From what I know, it’s not up to the provider to question discrepancies, but they are supposed to flag them to the employer paying for the check. And that employer has some department (Legal, HR, LR) who makes a decision.

  24. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

    Two questions today, because, like I said, unhealthily obsessed. I have an MPH with a concentration in MCH. I have a mixture of policy-focused (analysis, strategy based on analysis, etc) experience for a nonprofit and academic work doing mostly qualitative research and analysis–I currently have two published papers and will likely end up with ~5-6 once all the work is done. As I’ve said ad nauseam, I’m very geographically limited for my field, and I’m starting to realize I need to branch out and look for other positions. I have project management experience, but not *all* aspects, which has been an issue with positions to which I’ve applied. I’m leaning into pay and not passion, so if anyone has any ideas of where to go from here, I’d love to hear any tips. Thank you!

    2. Public Health Nerd*

      If you have qualitative experience and like it, look at market research firms for pharma research/market analysis, or the same thing for drug companies and contract research organizations.

      1. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

        Ok, that’s what I was thinking, too, so I’m glad that seems like the right track. I was actually offered a job with a research organization outside my field last year and turned it down to stay in my field thinking I’d be able to find something else when the grant ran out. :( Stupid!!

      2. Coenobita*

        +1 to research and consulting. Don’t necessarily discount other non-profit orgs, either. I have an MPH (in env/occ health) and work at a big environmental nonprofit. I actually get paid really well – way more than I did at my previous consulting job!

    4. sarah grace*

      This is my field! Seconding market research / health-care research, which is what I do. Look for consulting firms / contract research organizations (PSB, RTI, NORC) as a starting point — less policy unless you aim for the DC area. You might also look into managing clinical trials (most major hospitals, especially the big research institutes) as another starting point, although I’m not sure those pay as well.

      The pay is definitely better client-side, where you might look for something in their pipeline or managing the development side – there’s a lot of opportunity for project management and qualitative research there. Regulatory agencies are also good places to look, but I’m not sure what kind of jobs they might offer that are in your alley.

    5. Frankie Bergstein*

      Government is another option. The state/local level won’t pay very well, but the federal one does. Also, like you, I made the transition from passion (similar qualifications and background to yours) to pay & healthy work environment, and I am *not* looking back at all.

      I don’t know how far out of passion you’re willing to lean, but government contractors in defense and other fields will be able to use your research skills. LinkedIn really helped me identify such firms.

      1. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

        No, that’s definitely on my list! My prospects aren’t good for the current administration (one look at my publishing history and any political appointee is going to immediately delete my application!), but if the administration changes I expect there’ll be multiple opportunities in my exact field on the federal level.

    6. Addy*

      Oooh this is me!!

      If you want more money, go into UX Research in tech. I do the same sort of stuff that I did in public health (qualitative research, project management, analysis) but for real money.

      You can even do this in health tech, which would be an easy transition. Come to the dark side!

      1. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

        Does this work without any background in tech at all? I’ve seen positions advertised but have been intimidated by the technical aspects. Real money sounds pretty great, though!

      2. Ryan Howard's White Suit*

        Just applied for one! The starting salary is almost twice what I’ve ever made and it only requires a BA. I’m crossing my fingers!!

        1. Addy*

          I had zero background in tech at all and came straight out of academics. I just played up the whole “my job is to speak human” and “if I can talk to rural villagers about contraception I can talk to product managers about why no one is using their product, etc etc” thing.

          Don’t sell yourself short!

          1. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

            Ha! I do have lots of examples like that—the one good thing about doing repro work in the deep, deep South.

    2. 867-5309*

      I sit at the bar area of my kitchen flat, which has the benefit of being both uncomfortable and facing the kitchen so I think about food all the time. :)

  26. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I have a Very Big job interview next week. The job itself isn’t my dream job but it’s a good step for me, the company sounds solid, and I really need to get out of my current job for a variety of reasons.

    So far I’ve spoken to two people to whom I might directly report. Those conversations went REALLY well. This next round is a peer interview followed by an interview with a C-Suite person. I feel fine about the peer interview– I have a bunch of questions about culture and daily work that I’m really looking forward to asking– but I don’t think I have ever had an interview with a C-Suite this far removed from the position (I currently work directly with my company’s president, so that was a different thing). I wouldn’t be reporting directly to her, but this role functions under her overall umbrella.

    Any suggestions of questions I can ask in this specific situation? I’ve already asked Alison’s “magic question” in some form (i.e., “what differentiates someone good in the job from someone great”) and I’ve asked about reporting structure and day-to-day responsibilities. Can I ask about her vision for the department and the company? How this role fits into that?

    Regardless, cross your fingers for me, please!

    1. Neosmom*

      How about asking the executive about their history with the company, specific company goals, and what they need from the person they hire to help reach those goals?

    2. AP.*

      I would ask questions about the company and company strategy:
      – In the last earnings call, the CEO said that the company was considering future acquisitions. What sort of acquisitions are you looking at?
      – Sales of XYZ are down 10% this year due to COVID impact. Do you think this is a one-time blip or will there be ongoing impact even after the crisis has abated?

      I would also make sure that I was familiar with all recent articles, earning reports, press conferences, etc.

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Fingers crossed for you! I just finished a second round of interviews, including folks who would be above me in the hierarchy but not in the hiring department. I think your question are good. I also asked what is the top thing that the position could do to help their part of the business. I got some good – and very interesting – answers out of that question. (One answer was about helping with IT security, which was interesting because the position is not in IT, no IT security responsibilities were in the job description, and I’m not in IT security.) Good luck!

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Oh geez. How did those answers impact the process? Did you withdraw, or… just go in with your eyes open? I’m fascinated by this now!

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      Focus on questions related to the company overall or the function this person oversees.
      – What would you say are the biggest priorities for the Lama Grooming Department?
      – How does the Lama Grooming Department work with the Sheep Shearing Department?
      – What has changed at the company as a result of COVID? Culturally? From a business perspective?
      – How would you describe the culture at the company? OR What kind of people fit in best here?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        — What type of changes do you see in the future that you are free to talk about?
        –What types of concerns do you see right now and how can an employee like myself best help with those concerns?
        –Thinking back about employees who have been impressive to you in the past, what did those people do that stood out in your mind?

  27. Dissatisfied*

    A lot of people yesterday were talking about burning out in high pressure, low paying “dream jobs”, and realizing that normal jobs were better for them. It’s an important message that many people need to hear, but it left me wondering: what if you have the opposite problem?

    I have a pretty good “normal job” for someone in my age range (late-20s): decent pay, great benefits, excellent work-life balance, and a healthy culture. And yet I feel dissatisfied. I don’t hate my job, but it often feels devoid of meaning and like I’m wasting my potential by being here. The prospect of doing doing this kind of “normal” office work for the rest of my life is depressing. I spend a lot of time daydreaming about ditching my current career and getting a PhD or becoming a professional writer, even knowing the real drawbacks of those paths.

    The common advice for someone like me is to invest more in my personal life and find passion and meaning outside of work, but I don’t feel like I have enough time or energy for that despite never working more than 40 hours a week. It’s hard to make enough time for passion projects between a full-time job, household chores, a long-term relationship, and maintaining some sort of social life (mostly virtually now, of course). And even when I do have the time, I don’t always have the energy to really focus on my personal projects after working 8 hours.

    I’m not sure the anti-dream job advice applies to everyone; I have a few friends who are in a similar position. I think many people would be better off with slightly less stability and pay in exchange for more meaningful work that helps us realize our full potential, but their experience is underrepresented in the current discourse.

    Thoughts?

    1. Student Affairs Sally*

      I don’t have my “dream job”, but I’m in my dream field (higher education) – and my salary definitely reflects that. There are definitely opportunities to make big bucks in higher ed, but those are higher-level university leadership positions, and I’m much more interested in the “down and dirty” work of engaging directly with students, which is not particularly well-paid. For me, it’s worth the trade off. Of course I wish I made more, but I also know that I would really be unhappy in most of the more lucrative fields. Doing something that I’m passionate about and that I feel makes a difference in the world is a higher priority for me than salary.

    2. Southern Academic*

      Mmmm, I feel you. I discovered as an adult that I had more ambition than I realized (I had a relatively stable job with some satisfying parts. But for a variety of reasons, it was clear I’d never be able to move *upwards* in that job, nor would I be able to diversify my responsibilities / take on new challenges. If I were there 20 years, I’d be doing the same thing.) So I moved on and am now in the middle of a PhD program.

      I recognize the dangers of working too hard, and I’m careful to block out time for myself (I enjoy being outdoors and turning off work / going to bed at reasonable hours, and I hold myself to that.) But I also work a lot and take on new projects because they’re interesting or important to me. I know what I want to happen after I graduate, but I’m also working at picking up skills that will, I hope, open other doors.

      One thing I’d say is that just because something is true for a lot of people, doesn’t mean it is true for you. And just because it’s so-called conventional wisdom (or even anti-conventional wisdom that’s been popularized) doesn’t mean it will work for you.

      Keep conventional wisdom in mind (e.g. don’t go into debt for the PhD, have some savings if possible, etc) but it’s okay not to think the same way as everybody else, and to want different things.

    3. Kramerica Industries*

      I’m totally in your shoes! Career-wise, I get bored easily so I tend to move around in my large organization every few years. This way, I have a goal for each new role and what I want to get out of it that makes the general 9-5 grind feel less devoid of meaning. It keeps things fresher and easier to keep going.

      Outside of work, I agree that I don’t have the energy (or honestly, the motivation) to pick up a side hustle like so many people seem to be doing. So I focused on what my stable boring job does allow me to do. For some people, it’s a solid income to be able to travel. I’m in an expensive city, so I’m currently thankful for my job for allowing me to be able to purchase a house and still have enough fun money to try a new restaurant every week. And of course there are some days that I want to leave it all behind and pick up a passion project/job, but knowing that my job has helped me achieve other goals of mine (no debt + home ownership), it’s enough to get me through most days.

    4. Postdoc*

      I think the grass is always greener. I have a PhD, work on a very do-gooder topic, and am miserable. In this world, I’m surrounded by people whose work is their whole identity–so whenever I start to pick my head up, and have an identity outside of work, I am falling behind my peers in my professional success. I feel like I’m “wasting my potential” by taking vacations. Having your ONLY identity be your work is a bad thing, but it’s very much the norm.

      I think the thing about these passion careers (PhDs, mission-driven nonprofits, creatives) is that they satisfy some needs (the need for meaning, the need for challenge) while leaving others unmet (the need for a multi-dimensional life, the need to be able to have a conversation that you don’t turn back to work). Same with “normal jobs,” but it’s a different balance of met/unmet needs. It kind of reminds me of the way people talk about codependency in relationships: no one partner can meet all your needs, so you’re going to need to also maintain a bunch of friends and call your sister sometimes.

      If you just straight up need more variety during the day, yeah that might mean a career change. But from the other side, I see the flexibility that you have and think you may have a middle option. Practically speaking, if you were working 8 kinda boring hours a day plus doing 4 hours of writing 3 nights a week, you’d be in a functionally identical position to me as a PhD but with 2 more nights off, and almost certainly making more than I do!

    5. Kiitemso*

      This resonates with me to an extent. I also love writing, and I confess I also don’t do it enough. I love research but doing a Master’s made me understand I don’t love academia. I felt more pressured in that atmosphere than in any job I’ve had, and academia pays less, so I didn’t think that route was worth it.

      I’m sure you’re right, some people are meant to chase dreams. But for me, stability is always preferable to instability. I have friends who have slowly built lives that look like their own, like buying a house in a low COL area, doing odd jobs from home, gardening their own food, starting a bee keeping business or making soy candles and selling them online – not huge money makers but leading the kind of lives they want to lead. They have to work hard, too, of course, but they’ve chosen a different kind of way to not worry about paying bills and I salute them for that.

      I think so long as you’re guided by realism and not just the best case scenario where your first novel becomes an international bestseller or you gain tenure-track with a snap of your fingers, then you can slowly build the life you want to lead. But I would still encourage all day-dreaming writers to not quit their day jobs. If nothing else, try doing NaNoWriMo one year alongside your job, the challenge will make you carve out time you didn’t know existed to write.

    6. Ama*

      I don’t think not pinning your hopes on having a “dream job” means you should not look for work that is fulfilling to you personally in some way. I have always worked in nonprofit admin, for example, because if I am going to work a 40 hour a week office job, I need to know that it is in service of a larger goal that is helping to improve the world/community around me. For other people it may be less about the employer’s larger purpose and more about the goals of a certain type of work — my father loves being an accountant because he enjoys using numbers and data to organize and explain how a business is performing.

      You don’t have to love everything about your job or want to do it forever (my dad’s a few years from retirement and definitely looking forward to it), but it is totally understandable to try to identify a type of work that will at least make the 40 hours a week grind feel more bearable. And it’s also totally fine for whatever that “thing that makes it bearable” to change! People don’t stay the same forever, and some people thrive more on variety and changing things up every so often.

    7. lemon*

      I really relate to this. My life plan was getting a PhD for such a long time, until it really just sank in how financial unstable that path can leave you. So, I prioritized profit (or really, just… financial stability and emotional well-being, lol) over passion. Now, I have a good job, with great work-life balance and benefits and a decent paycheck. But I’m bored out of my mind. I’ve considered going back for my PhD from time to time, but then I remember the reality of being an academic today.

      Postdoc made a lot great points above. If you feel like you don’t have energy for passion projects now, going into academia won’t necessarily solve that. You still have to find the time and energy for your own work as an academic. If you’re lucky enough to get a tenure-track job, your day will be filled with teaching and grading and committees and administrative work, and you’ll still be expected to do research on nights and weekends. If you’re an adjunct, it’s worse, because then you’ll be trying to teach as many classes as possible (while still being expected to do research on your own time), because the average adjunct pay is $3000/course, which means you have to teach 4 courses a semester just to make $24k a year. And a lot of that stuff you’re doing during the day can be pretty boring– reading terribly written papers, sitting through boring meetings, teaching classes on subjects that aren’t your primary research interest.

      So, that’s something I keep in mind when I start to feel really bored. But I don’t know what the solution is yet. I know that I do need to find a more challenging job, but I don’t know what that job is yet.

      So far my strategy has just been… keep trying new things until I find something that captures my interest. I’ve been going to lectures to learn a little bit about things I wouldn’t normally think to be interested in. I went to a lecture about graph analysis, which sparked an interest in data science, so I’m taking a data science course online now. I have no idea if that means I’m going to start a career in data science. But the good thing about my boring job is that it gives me time and space. I don’t have to rush to make this new interest profitable right now– I can just enjoy learning a new thing and not have to worry about what I’m going to do with it just yet.

      Courses have been a great way for me to conquer boredom, because I’ve found that often “boredom” is just masking feeling overwhelmed with where to start. Having the structure of a course makes it easier to get started, and also holds me accountable.

      A lot of universities make their lectures open to the public. I’ve found a lot of great events just by following schools on social media. And the nice thing about the pandemic right now is that everything is online, so you have the chance to attend events you wouldn’t normally be able to attend. There are also independent orgs that offer some interesting courses for adult learners (like the Brooklyn Institute of Social Research, which is 100% online right now, so you don’t have to live in Brooklyn to attend).

    8. Analyst Editor*

      With “dream job” stuff, I think there’s a wise way to and a foolish way to follow the advice. Andy from the Office style – burn bridges, quit with no savings or prospects – is very foolish. Going into tens of thousands of dollars in debt for a life of adjunct professor contracts – also foolish. But looking around and building a plan – e.g. studying to be an actuary, learning to code, getting a masters your current job pays for — these are much more realistic, low-risk approaches – and the feeling of working towards something else will ALREADY change your attitude and your feeling of being trapped.
      Alternatively, maybe you are a “work to live” person and that’s how you are. My family (of origin) is very much like that; work is just work, and we live for family and friends – and I think it helps make it matter much less among their friends who does what and who makes how much. For my part, my career is absolutely secondary to my kids; and I’m seriously looking at options from becoming a teacher, to having a day-care, to homeschooling myself, as increasingly more realistic options; maybe that will also become your path if you choose to have them.

      1. Gamer Girl*

        Teaching is the worst possible choice if you want to have time to spend with your kids. Please, don’t do it for that reason. That’s one of the reasons I was pushed into it in college, and it is absolutely untrue!

        The only exception could be: higher level math (high school level) or possibly physics, where grading is quick (former roommates were dedicated math and science teachers), the pay is good, and the jobs are in high demand. Anything else will leave you working 10 hour days (I had to be at school by 6:30am, stayed for bus duty and after school care duties or coaching or parent/teacher meetings til 5 or 6pm–all of these are an expectation and often a requirement for teachers). And then, you still have more grading at night if you teach a “soft” subject, like language or history. You have no life the first 3 years of teaching while you are finding your feet. Summers are not free–you will be taking 1-2 extra courses every summer, designing new curriculums to keep up with standards… You will have endless meetings about at-risk children, IEPs to keep up with (no problem with doing that work, but the admin is absolutely killer if you have more than one or two per class).

        I do NOT recommend doing this with children, especially young children, at home. This is part of why I quit teaching, after 7 years in the profession, two years before my children were born. It is a job with almost no work/life balance. That is a myth that needs to die, now, before more young women get pushed into this. It’s also highly sexist–young women are told they can be there for their kids by being teachers, when really, what we need as a society is a baseline expectation that BOTH parents will need to parent. (Sorry, that should be its own thread). But, seriously, this pipedream of teaching being an “easy” work/life job with summers off is increadibly untrue.

    9. Washi*

      I think there’s a lot of space between “I feel like a soulless office drone” and “I am a starving artist.” And in that middle ground you might find your happy place!

      When I was in college, my “dream job” was to be a translator of literature. But as I neared graduation, all it took was an hour of research to realize that it is very difficult to make a stable living that way. I had done HR work throughout college and considered going in that direction, but the thought of doing that for the rest of my life felt depressing (not to knock HR! It’s just not for me.) Now I’m a social worker and often use my second language, and it feels like I found a good middle ground of those two things. I don’t make what I could as an HR exec in a for-profit company, but it’s steady, meaningful work that challenges me while providing a decent living.

      I think instead of trying to figure out “what’s my dream job” it might help to just think “where could I be just a little happier/more challenged than this?” and go from there.

    10. ArtsNerd*

      As someone who is super disillusioned with ‘cool’ arts/nonprofit/creative jobs, I’d recommend you cultivate your dream job *function.* What tasks bring you delight? Which ones do you grudgingly slog through? Focus on jobs that have more of the former, less of the latter. Do you want to be a specialist, or do you do better when you have a variety of tasks and projects that use different skill sets?

      I realized that my next gig should be visual graphic design, not “marketing” and that I’m personally not super picky about what I am designing. Top priorities are to get in a better work culture and to get far far away from running any social media accounts or press pitches. While in my current super-cool arts job I get to do some fun, creative work, the basic “format brochures” “crop photos for a web banner” “update the text on this form” design work happens at least as much as the ‘fun’ design work. Not to mention all the other hats I wear (writing, fundraising, email marketing, web updates, and …)

      The industry and employer aren’t irrelevant per se*, but they are actually less important once you’ve been in the job for a while than you might think (aside from using “meaningful” as an excuse for poor treatment and pay.) Smaller companies, as well as smaller nonprofits, have MANY special flavors of dysfunction, but bureaucracy and stagnation aren’t usually among them. Working at one of these usually gives you the opportunity to do lots of different types of things and stretch your skills and be very visibly, tangibly helpful to the business/customers/your peers/clients.

      *For example, the CIA is hiring a graphic designer. I am not applying there. The American Association of Llama Brush Manufacturers, on the other hand? Sign me up! Joe Bob and Associates Accounting? Let’s talk.

      1. Alina*

        I do think this is the way to go – become a graphic designer or accountant or HR or comp sci or some other type of transferable skill, and then work in a company or organization that you like. Nonprofits have all the departments a for profit company does too.

    11. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve done both (“dream job” that’s intense and draining and pays little, as well as “ordinary job” that pays much more and is less fulfilling/meaningful). Honestly, if you feel restless in an “ordinary job,” you can consider getting a different type of “ordinary job” that’s slightly more mission-driven or supports a mission you believe in. You could also just be bored at work and find your fulfillment outside of work (write in your spare time, do hobbies, etc.).

    12. Alina*

      I feel like spend so much of your time at work that I can’t give up on the idea that you should at least like it and you should think of it as a good. way to spend that much time. One of my dream jobs was limited in tenure by its nature, and I’m so glad I did it. It was absolutely crazy in terms of hours, stress, but also immensely rewarding. I’m glad that was something I got to experience during my life, and it will shape my career decisions and how I approach situations in the future. I also made a lot of good friends and professional acquaintances!

      In the future, I do want a more stable, regular job, but I will continue to work in this field where I’ve made a niche for myself now, and I’m glad I pursued that opportunity.

    13. Mynona*

      I left a satisfying but not fulfilling career at age 31 to start over in a dream job in the arts requiring a masters and PhD. Twelve years later, I am in my dream job and it is everything I hoped it would be. My life really is a dream.

      But I also have no children, $100K+ in student loan debt, laughable pay, a term-limited position, and I have to move wherever I can find a job every few years. This is what success looks like in my field, for someone like me with no family or spousal financial support. And none of it fazes me in the least. Those things just don’t matter and they never have.

      So, my advice is to really research your dream job and be brutally honest about what failure would look like and what success requires. Dream jobs cost money and time and, when they don’t materialize, they tend to leave you with no marketable skills. Can you work with that level of risk or not?

    14. Not So NewReader*

      I think that this is something we go through and for me it was especially bad in my 20s. “This is it? This is all I get?” I remember that. I think we are supposed to want more, I think that is a healthy sign. I’d worry about a person who did not want more in some form, whatever form that may be.

      Life fills up and it gets hectic. It can be nice to have a mundane job when life is otherwise crazy. I remember plenty of days saying, “TG I can do this job in my sleep, because I really need the rest.”

      You are saying you want to write. So start writing. Use the job you have now for the stability it provides while you sort out what to do with your writing. Seriously. When something has become mundane/ordinary there are advantages to that. It can be used as a platform for the next thing. Or go the same route with a PhD.

      Stagnation is a killer. Healthy people get restless when they stagnate. It’s normal to want to grow. It’s normal to want to do something meaningful. Pick strategically. You have the luxury of being choosy as to how you go about your next steps.

      “It’s hard to make enough time for passion projects between a full-time job, household chores, a long-term relationship, and maintaining some sort of social life (mostly virtually now, of course). And even when I do have the time, I don’t always have the energy to really focus on my personal projects after working 8 hours.”
      This is the toughest part right here.

      Life is all trade-offs. We forego this to get that, we give up something else in order to get New Thing. Part of your solution here may be to figure out what you are willing to give up in order to have the time, energy and brain space to do New Thing.
      Another thing I had to do was DELIBERATELY take satisfaction in what I done so far. It seems odd to say that, but we can actually take for granted what we have done. We can forget to allow that to “fill our cup” in some manner.

      And sometimes the answer is the very answer we don’t want to hear. I heard, “Not right now. You have enough on your plate atm. ” Sometimes when we want to make the big reach to the New Thing we can’t because there is stuff in front of us that needs to be taken care of now. I did not like this answer but I found it to be true. It was very helpful to hang on to the fact that I had a job that if nothing else, it was stable.

    15. JessicaTate*

      There’s some good advice above. I do think it’s true that it’s OK to trade some stability and pay for more meaningful work. Absolutely. But do it with eyes wide open, consider how much stability/pay you’re willing to give up (and the cost of pursuit – i.e., PhD), what the field demands to get where you’re trying to go (i.e., more than passion). And most importantly, be continually self-reflective about whether the path is still working for you, what the evidence is telling you about YOUR long-term prospects, and how your view of the situation is evolving (with age, time, etc.). Don’t be afraid to course-correct for you.

      I think the “follow your dream” advice fails the most when people follow it blindly, get so invested in “the dream” that they stop re-evaluating themselves and what they’ve learned. Put your happiness, not the “dream,” at the center of your perspective and decisions.

      Sometimes we decide to take risks in life and careers. I guess my other piece of advice is to not view it as all-or-nothing; don’t view it as “failure” if you don’t end up where you thought or bail on the “plan” or the “dream”; and don’t view all you’ve learned and gained along the way as a “waste.” Learn from it. Use it to figure out the next step. See your own resilience. A long-term narrative of hopelessness and being “stuck” by forces out of your control is damaging, I think. Life’s short. You can’t go back. So, work the problem in front of you and move forward with all that you’ve learned to make yourself a little bit happier (and fix the system for others when you have the power to).

      Good luck.

    16. Wintergreen*

      I have a strong need for stability and have gone the “Not a dream job/Don’t hate my job” route. At times I’ve definitely had the “I should be doing more” feeling. After 20 years I’ve come to the realization it is not coming from a lack of meaning in my life as I am not dis-satisfied with my life. For me it is more like an aspect of impostor syndrome, or closely related to impostor syndrome. Where I somehow believe that if I was doing my job right, I would be more stressed and have to work more than 40 hours a week. But because I am not, I must be doing something wrong because everyone else is always talking about how stressed and overworked they are.

    17. allathian*

      This is interesting, because my dominant core value is security. I surprised myself in the summer by applying for a job when I didn’t have to do so, for the first time in my life (I’m 48). I didn’t get it, but I enjoyed the experience of a reasonably low stakes interview process. If they had offered me the job, I would have taken it. I like my current job, my manager and coworkers, but at times I feel like I need to change something. There are days when job satisfaction means I’m satisfied that I have a job and nothing more. Not often, but sometimes.

      Until now, every time I’ve changed jobs it’s been because I was laid off, or I went abroad for a year as an exchange student, or quit a retail job on the spot with nothing else lined up because I’d grown to hate it and had wept buckets the night before I did it. Until now, I’ve never considered changing jobs unless I was truly miserable in a job or unless circumstances beyond my control forced my hand.

      I can’t imagine what a “dream job” would be for me. I guess I’m happy to contribute to something I feel is doing something good in the world. I work for a government agency that provides necessary services to the public, although my job is pretty invisible except in my work product. I wouldn’t say that I’m passionate about my job, and I’m definitely someone who works to live rather than lives to work. That said, work isn’t just a paycheck. My professional identity is very important to me.

      I guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s possible to find meaning in pretty mundane things, and also that I don’t know what “reaching my full potential” really means. It’s certainly never been an openly stated goal for me, I’m happy with “a good life well lived”, even if that is at least as hard to define…

    18. Wordybird*

      You need to figure out your currency… which isn’t always actual currency. :)

      I’m an INFJ & an Enneagram 1 which means changing the world & making a difference is super important to me as is working for an organization that is very ethical & very practical/reasonable/logical. Creativity is a defining aspect of my personality (reading, writing, photography, cooking, interior design) that I would like to use more in my professional life but I don’t have to make it a main focus as that tends to suck all the fun and passion out of it for me. These are not things that I just figured out on my own, especially when I was younger, but things I had to really think about and research to get to know myself better.

      As a 20-something, I thought my “dream job” would be an editor for a magazine or publishing house in NYC or a full-time writer. Those dreams did not work out, for various reasons, and now that I am 10+ years older, I realize that my dreams are actually more intangible characteristics/values vs. tangible roles. My last job search focused on those things — working remotely, ethical field with an ethical company that was doing something good for the world, something with a focus on administration but not being an admin assistant/CSR — as well as a role that would offer more specific/niche experience (hi, fellow English-degree-but-don’t-want-to-be-a-teacher majors!) than I currently had + enough money for me to be financially independent.

      I started a new role in professional education a few weeks ago, and it checks all those boxes for me. Is it my “dream job” or a field I ever thought about working in before? No. Is it a job I can be successful in & mostly enjoy while also making enough money to do the things I want to do in life & not have to work a lot of overtime or strange hours or suck all my brainpower away (so that I can volunteer & be creative which bring me lots of joy)? Yes. Do I get to do every single thing every single week that brings me joy + work FT? No. Do I make sure that I do at least one thing every single week that brings me joy + work FT? Yes.

      My ultimate dream job & life is to make a difference, be happy, & be healthy so I am intentional with the big choices I make each week. Some weeks (like now as I’m learning this new job) are just working & sleeping & taking care of my family & getting by. Some weeks are intently focusing on one side project or activity (like when I volunteer and a big event/project is coming up). Some weeks are spending 30 minutes each night after dinner working on a little bit of this or a little bit of that. I remind myself of the big picture goal of being happy & healthy vs. focusing on what I may or may not be be tangibly accomplishing day-to-day.

      It’s just about really getting to know yourself & what works best for you & then doing those things.

    19. Gamer Girl*

      I am a writer in a dream job. I did not set out to be a writer–in fact, my parents actively discouraged me from it during my education and pushed me into being a teacher. The thing they didn’t count on is: being a teacher propelled me into being a writer.

      First: This is what I tell people who think they want to write professionally:

      1. Do you write? Regularly?
      Or is this just a dream of a cool job?
      If you think you can do it, do it. Don’t just practice writing. Instead, give yourself an assignment with a wordcount, a concept, and a deadline.

      (To be a workhorse professional who pays the bills, you need to have the chops to write well and write very, very quickly. You want to be known as “that writer we can always rely on” who keeps getting hired on the strength of a sterling track record of deliveries, as well as the strength of your ideas and voice)

      2. When you were in school and now at work, is your writing praised? Not necessarily for correctness, but for style, vision, etc. Is there an aspect of your writing that has stood out to a variety of people over the years?

      (This is not a universal measuring stick–some people develop later than others as writers, and with study, I truly believe many people can write, but please, really think about this one. At least some natural talent is a component of success as a writer).

      3. Did you grow up with wealth or with scarcity?
      Why do I ask this? Because it’s the kids who had to hustle and the kids who lived with just enough to get by who “get it”–who know what they are signing up for. You are highly unlikely to be salaried. There’s a ton of writing work out there, especially if you can specialize in a niche topic that doesn’t have many good writers. However, the pay is almost always low, even for famous novelists, so for awhile, you will be living on a shoestring budget.

      On the other side of the coin, if you grew up with plenty, perhaps you have family money to bail you out. This is, unfortunately, why writers with family riches and wealth are overrepresented across the writing fields.

      But the best explanation for what it’s often like to live the artist life: read Celeste Ng’s Little Fires Everywhere. The photographer in that story–her background is the perfect explanation of why people who know how to work are the ones who ultimately have the tools to succeed as an artist, writer, or other creative type. Briefly: her parents taught her to work and to work hard, she had many odd jobs growing up, and she was a dedicated, hard worker, working all-hours waitressing jobs and other jobs hustling for enough cash to pay the rent. All the while, she was creating. She didn’t buy new catalogue-worthy furniture, but she could go to a thrift store with 20 bucks and set up a home for herself and her daughter with odds and ends and a bit of ingenuity.

      If you know that you are able to have that level of commitment during lean writing years, perhaps you have what it takes to be a writer.

      4. There is no reason why you can’t try both! Plenty of people work for years in a “regular job” and all the while slowly transform themselves into writers.

      Personally, I worked around the clock as a teacher for years. In the end, I figured that, even if I had to work 16 hours a day, every day, to be a writer, it would be better than the admin hell I was in, doing all of the paperwork that teaching has steadily devolved into–tracking standards, begging for grant money, and countless admin forms, not to mention the curriculum differentiation, endless grading, and constant worry about certain students (anything student-focused, I would have continued. It was the admin that broke me).
      I loved teaching, but the profession, as it is now, does not love me back, and after several breakdowns, which I was coping with using alcohol, I was on track for total burnout. I was also already working on yearly contracts, as salaried teaching work in my field where I live means waiting for Boomers to leave… I took a look at my life, thought to myself, “There has to be more than this.”

      I remembered Ann Patchett’s “The Getaway Car”–her advice for becoming and being a professional writer, went back to it, and realized that I already had most of the skills and drive she discusses within. I quit my job, took on tutoring gigs as a side hustle while I found my writing focus and started looking for jobs.

      Your question really spoke to me, as we were around the same age (late 20s) when we started thinking about these things. I am not trying to critique your desire for change or to scare you off of writing, only to tell you what it’s like to be a writer from the inside. The different I see between our stories, though, is that you have a great, well-paying, if boring, job. Please do not underestimate the value of your job! Having money and spare time after work to start writing is a valuable thing!

  28. Lost in the Library*

    I have 2 questions, one is straightforward and the other is a bit more complex.

    1. I’m currently in a temporary mat. leave position which is coming to an end shortly. How do I note this on my resume. Do I just amend my position with something like “Librarian (maternity leave position) — October 2019 – October 2020” on my resume? I’m concerned about people thinking I’ve been fired from a position!

    2. A position I’m applying for requires a 1-page writing sample/assignment describing “a time I’ve shown leadership as an “X-Type” Librarian.” Okay, I have provided leadership in this position, so I do have an example. However, I am floundering and I don’t understand how to write this. At all. I’m not a natural born writer, so writing anything is a chore. Coupled with my general anxiety for applying for jobs, well, I’m a mess!

    I wrote a sample and emailed it to my boss and a colleague and both of them said that it sounded “too much like a story” and that it should be more “professional,” “formal,” succinct, and written like a report (with headers!!). HUH? I legitimately… have no clue how to write this! How am I supposed to discuss something that I did, without making it sound like a story… aren’t they ASKING for a story?

    I took a business writing course YEARS ago, but apparently I’ve forgotten everything. I just struggle with writing… so. much. Not the mechanics of it, but the actual process of getting my ideas out from my head part. I don’t know how to de-personalize my experience and turn it into a formalized report? I haven’t found any good “samples” of writing something like this, either.

    I don’t know if I can write like this. I am sincerely thinking about not applying to this position at all, which is ridiculous and over-dramatic. I’m just, not a good writer. There’s something wrong with me (I think) that is preventing me from understanding how to write this. I’m just so mad at myself for not understanding what this library wants OR understanding how to take in the criticisms from my colleague and manager about how to improve what I’ve wrote. I feel like an absolute moron!

    Anyway, any advice on how to write something like this? I’m so confused.

    1. Mockingjay*

      There are significant differences between a report and a story. Different audience, different content, different writing styles. Get a couple of books on technical writing from your local library. These have plenty of before and after examples of reports.

      this is a blog, so I won’t take up too much of Alison’s space, but quick items:
      Scope: content boundary. Stick to the subject.
      Grammar: Impersonal. Action verbs. Concise wording.
      Organization: BLUF – bottom line up front; STAR – Situation, Task, Action, Result, etc.

      Check out online tech writing courses – there are free ones which will give you an idea of how to structure and put together a report. You CAN learn to write well; it just takes practice. Remember those report outlines you did in high school? I still use them for technical writing. The skills are there; you just haven’t used them in awhile.

      1. Lost in the Library*

        What I think I’m having difficulty is, do I have to de-personalize my whole experience to write it as a report? I don’t think I understand how to remove the personal from a personal experience/story. That’s what’s really tripping me up.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Focus on the action and result, not the person (yourself). What’s the benefit of the leadership or the action you took to the company?

          “Well, two days before the big presentation, coworker Bob fell and broke his ankle and I had to suddenly step in for him and I had to find the presentation on the server and finish the slides and set up the conference room, and give the slides to clients I’d never met.”

          becomes:

          “Completed and provided Widget Specification presentation to Acme Corp. last week on short notice, for coworker Bob in absentia. Presentation was well received by Acme Corp.; their CEO complemented our company on the in-depth specs we provided. As a result, we received a large Widget order from Acme today, with others to follow in the next quarter. Kudos go to Bob for preparing such a quality slideshow; recommend we use his work as a template for the upcoming presentations to Amazon and Walmart.”

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      For #1, yes I think listing it with the “maternity leave cover” parenthetical will be fine and convey it was a temporary assignment.

      For #2: is writing a component of this job? I am confused why they need a writing sample if you won’t be writing as a key part of the role.

      1. Lost in the Library*

        To be honest, judging by the duties/experience they indicate writing is NOT a key part of the job. I do know that there is an internal candidate they’ll likely hire, so I’m wondering if this whole rigmarole is less about sharing leadership experiences and more about dissuading people from applying? It’s also why I’m thinking about not applying.

    3. LPUK*

      There may be a value in ‘invisible headings’ that you don’t actually type but which may help the structure eg ‘ context, ( in which role, who else involved), situation or issue, why was this a problem, what was potential impact, what did I do to show leadership, what impact did that have, what worked well in this situation, what did I learn from this, what might I do differently etc. short sentence or paragraph on each

    4. Merci Dee*

      I think your instinct to write your experience as more of a story is the better way to go. I’m not sure why your boss and colleague were suggesting that you complete the writing portion as though it were a report. I think that, for an application, writing about the experience in your own voice is essential — think about how you would tell the story to the interviewer if they had asked this question in a phone or face-to-face interview. You wouldn’t be able to set up the example in a report-like format in that situation, and it would seem kind of strange if you tried to go into a more formal type of structure in a re-telling (“Co-worker Librarian A, otherwise known as CL-A, approached with a problem at 0930 on July 12 related to a conflict between . . . . “). Especially since the position doesn’t seem to have a large writing component, and especially not a technical writing component, I think you’re going to be able to express a lot more about your personality and your perspective if you just write out the example in a natural language kind of way, as though you were telling an acquaintance about what happened to give you this experience.

      1. WellRed*

        I’m a writer for a living and second this advice. Reading should be enjoyable and if it reads more like a story that helps. Make sure to use proper grammar and punctuation, choose words carefully and keep it active. Oh, and use paragraphs. Sounds obvious but lots of folks think such a short read doesn’t need it.

    5. Roja*

      I’m with Merci Dee on this one. I would have taken that as a more narrative style as well, because it’s a stand-in for an interview question.

      But realistically, if you want to apply for the position, the best application is the one you can actually do in a reasonable amount of time and effort. Don’t get so caught up in trying for the perfect writing sample that you don’t actually apply. As long as it’s well written, clear, and answers their question, it’s likely to be just fine.

    6. Amy*

      I think that my best advice is to be yourself. You can try to take their advice on board and put headers in and maybe review your tone to remove casual words, contractions or similar. After that though, it is your voice that should be heard, the application request is unclear and your best is actually a good thing to submit. Good luck!

    7. 867-5309*

      You do not need to say mat leave – I’d put it in the job title

      Librarian (Contract) October 2019-October 2020

    8. Not So NewReader*

      For question #2: To add clarity for your own writing find a definition of leadership. Then try to find what leadership in that library position would look like. If we are not clear on the terms it’s going to be super hard to write about something.
      This can be even harder if you did not supervise people. You can talk about a time when you changed what you were doing for the better and other people copied your new idea. You might have an example where you came up with a new idea and convinced your boss to buy equipment to implement the new idea. Or in a different approach maybe you decided that you were going to make sure patrons were informed about x program or y offering and you made it a point to discuss x or y every day with people. I worked one place where people never said please and thank you to each other. So I started saying please and thank you randomly, without going into overkill. It wasn’t long and others starting doing the same.

      1. Lost in the Library*

        I think I have difficulty understanding what the term “leadership” truly entails. My “story” is about my supervision of a summer student this year, so yeah… I guess technically “supervision” = “leadership.” But truthfully, I don’t think what I did was leadership. She was almost better at her job than I was at mine!!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          And this happens to a lot of bosses, their employee is almost better at the job than they are.

          THIS is what good leadership looks like to me. Each generation should excel beyond the previous. For example a good teacher will have a student who grows to be better in the subject than the teacher.
          You’re right when you have an excellent employee you have a special set of circumstances. But in fairness, each employee, regardless of quality of work, requires something unique from their boss.

          So you had to tailor your leadership for this person in light of the fact that they were an extraordinary worker.
          You probably listened closely to her thoughts on things and took her ideas/thoughts under advisement before making some decisions you had to make.
          Maybe there were times where you waited for her inputs, because it was that important to you.
          You probably tried to find interesting things that needed to be done to help her feel and remain engaged in the job. This means you tried to expand on her experiences in ways that you could.
          Of course you had to keep her supplied with work assignments/materials/whatever. Because she was a good worker this involved more planning, projecting, estimating than you would have done with a worker with less experience.
          But you still remained the boss. So, how did you draw your boundaries with her? How did you convey company expectations meant for her? For me, I would say things such as, “We need to A, not B and here’s why…”. Because I taught as I went along the people knew why I was saying and doing things. They got better and better at picking out solutions and ideas that were fitting for our givens. Over the long run this meant that work flowed much quicker and outputs went way up.

          If you are stumbling over the concept of leadership here then lay it out in a truthful manner as you have done here. “I supervised a summer student for x months. Since she was really great at the work, my challenges where to help her stay engaged with the job and provide tasks/background knowledge that would be of interest to her. Correcting and redirecting where simple because of her work ethic. I found I could just explain why we did something a particular way and she did it that way.”

          If true, you may consider adding, “There were a few times where she showed me a couple things and I learned from her. I made sure she knew I respected what she had to say.”

          If true you can land on, “We got a lot accomplished in our time together as we did x, y and z.”

        2. WellRed*

          Supervision is not leadership. Leadership is bigger (implemented student program or at least, fought to get your supervisee accommodations the library was hesitating on).

            1. Lost in the Library*

              No, that’s exactly what I’m worried about. My boss and colleague who offered the initial feedback have assured me that I showed “leadership” with the summer student, but I remain unconvinced to be honest.

    9. Lizzo*

      1) I have done this kind of work! I think I indicated it as such:
      Job Title (Contract)
      -Covered maternity leave for blah blah (in my case, I wrote “for two key team members responsible for revenue-generating projects”)
      -Job responsibility/achievement A
      -Job responsibility/achievement B
      -Job responsibility/achievement C
      etc.

  29. It's a Bev-olution and I'm all in*

    Today in 2019 I quit one of the worst jobs I’d ever had! I say one of because I had an even worse job because I started my non-profit career 20 years ago. So I guess I could say that I’m luck?! I haven’t worked since then but I’ve donated 480+ hours of pro bono volunteer time and I’m feeling very charged for the next opportunity that comes around.

    1. juneybug*

      Congs! I just recently retired (did it sooner than had originally planned due to bad boss). I too, am looking forward to the next chapter in my life.

    2. Viette*

      Congratulations! I gave notice on the worst job I ever had in November of 2019 and I’m looking forward to celebrating that, too. It’s nice to remember that you can really just leave them behind!

  30. The New Normal*

    I work in a secondary school and am fortunate enough to get to interact with nearly every one of the almost 5,000 students on campus (normally). As such, I really try hard to check my internal biases and microaggressions so students know they have a safe place with me. My students are not on campus, but several still email, text, or call me to chat. One of my students asked me a question that I do not know the answer to and I was hoping that the AAM commentariat would be able to help me answer.

    During Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s memorial service on Wednesday, her Rabbi Lauren Holtzblatt was captivating. But my student asked me about the yarmulke she was wearing. The student had only seen men wearing yarmulke and thought it was supposed to be at the top of the head, but Rabbi Lauren Holtzblatt wore hers at the back of the head. Could someone teach me about the guidelines (if any) for this?

    1. Jaid*

      “In Conservative and Reform communities, some women choose to wear a kippah as a way of showing that they have accepted upon themselves the same obligations to do positive, time-bound mitzvot like men or out of general egalitarian principles.” Quora.com

      My Mom and I will wear kippahs when we go to services. Mom’s Conservative and I’m….not observant, but it make Mom happy. But not every woman I see there wears one. It’s definitely am individual thing.

    2. Ramona Q*

      There aren’t guidelines. It’s supposed to cover the head however it fits for the wearer (and contrary to popular belief, it’s just a custom, not halacha).

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      This might be better suited for the weekend thread, but a yarmulke isn’t really meant to go on the very top of the head as if placed directly from above. It usually sits on the crown, towards the back of the head (i.e., the largest part). There are no real guidelines. When women wear kippot, our hair often makes things a little more complicated so we pin a kippah or head covering wherever it feels most secure.

      1. pancakes*

        I live in NYC and I’ve never seen anyone wear one directly on top of their head. I don’t know how the student arrived at that expectation.

    4. The New Normal*

      Thank you all for your clarification! You can scour the net and get information but asking real people is my preference. Thank you!

    5. Emby*

      Rabbi Holtzblatt is my rabbi, but I could answer this even without that. In Orthodox settings, only men wear yarmulke (or kippah, as many call it), but in the other movements, especially the Conservative Movement, which Rabbi Holtzblatt is a member of, some women do, too. And most rabbis, regardless of gender, wear head coverings at least while leading a service, though not always a traditional kippah. As for positioning, it is actually pretty flexible– you will find people wearing them in many different places on their head. In some communities, the positioning (and the size and type) of the kippah signifies a set of beliefs (both religious and political), but that is not the case in most non-Orthodox communities. Generally speaking, people wear their kippahs where it fits most naturally on their heads. Since kippahs are not flat, for some people, the fit better further back, so the curve of their head matches the curve of the kippah. I believe that is why Rabbi Holtzblatt wore it where she did. The point is to have a head covering, and having it on the top versus further back doesn’t change that.

  31. Anon Interviewer*

    Long story short, I am finally leaving my terrible manager. However, I am leaving for an internal role and have been roped into interviewing replacements. I will be doing the 2nd interviews on my own. What I am looking for is some scripts and sample questions to ask these poor people while also giving them a hint on what they are in for.

    Some background: This manager is truly terrible. He will never change, and upper management doesn’t care, so complaining about him is pointless. He talks a good game about being supportive and collaborative and a relationship builder but is actually none of those things. To him, being a manager is feeling important and delegating. He may do SOME work if it is visible to upper management, but more likely you will do it and he will take the credit. And don’t you dare ever ask a question, you will be “undermining his authority!”

    I also need a script to answer why I, and so many others, have left. Help please, AAM Fam!

    1. RestResetRule*

      I think because you’re still going to be within the company, the only thing you can do is ask the usual questions. I would steer clear of trying to “hint” to them about what they might be getting into. It’s unfortunate that you’ve been roped into this situation, but there is no way that trying to help these applicants out is going to help you. What if your “hints” get back to your old boss or somebody else within the company? That might hurt your personal career.

      I think the only exception might be if a candidate approached or messaged you privately and asked specifically about your manager. Then you might feel safe enough to share your true concerns and his role in you leaving. But I think it’s a bad idea to try to warn people away.

    2. NW Mossy*

      One way is to think about how to frame it as an answer to “what type of person would work well with Fergus?” In your example, you might say something like “someone who enjoys problem-solving on their own and setting their boss up for success through their contributions.”

      Now, you and I and the rest of AAM may know that said person does not, in fact, exist outside of Fergus’s dream world. That’s fine. All you’re doing here is creating an opportunity for the candidate to hear this and go “ooh, yeah, that’s not me.”

    3. juneybug*

      Could you change the script? For example –
      “Boss doesn’t do anything” to “you will work independently”.
      “Boss will never change” to “boss is a consistent manager”.
      “Boss doesn’t want you to question him” to “you will be expected to find the solutions without input from the manager”.
      While that might seem deceitful, other folks might enjoy that type of work situations. Others will read behind the lines and stay away. Others will take a chance. You can only control the narrative, not their actions/choices.
      Good luck!!

      1. Ama*

        The one time I self-selected out of an interview process, it was because I interviewed with the woman I would be replacing and got a clearer understanding of the role and what it was actually like to work with the boss. She wasn’t trying to warn me — she clearly thought several of the things she mentioned were fun, positive things about the workplace (“sometimes we go to boss’s house and work on Fridays!” “oh it’s a flexible day, sometimes you go out and pick up boss’s dry cleaning or drop something off for her so you aren’t stuck at your desk”) but they were very much not what I was looking for at the time.

        So I think you can be honest without being overly negative and let the applicants self-select out as they desire.

      2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        Ahh, there are so many of these code phrases once you know what to look for!

        “Able to work with minimal supervision and take charge as needed” (in a position that wouldn’t normally require it) = management is a shambles and you will have to make it up as you go along

        “Fast-paced and dynamic environment” = priorities constantly change at the drop of a hat

        “Work hard and play hard” = you will work 20 hours a day; also we have a pool table!

        etc.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I would say that he has a very strong personality and a top-down, directive management style. And that I am moving on because I, personally, am looking for a more collaborative environment.

      It’s not rude, but the more clear you are about the situation, the less turnover there will be in the position. I’ve seen some real ogres find assistants and teams who were quite successful in working with them long-term, because some folks are okay dealing with that as long as they know.

      1. 867-5309*

        I would say moving on for a new opportunity – not related to the boss. OP is still working for the same company and needs to toe the line here a bit.

        I do think it’s okay to say manager’s style is top-down and directive.

    5. Mockingjay*

      I asked a similar question several years ago about ExToxicJob. The wonderful commentariat here reminded me that my hated job could be someone else’s much-needed opportunity. The new person may click with the boss and everything goes smoothly for them. They may be about the work, not the credit.

      Describe the work and the nature of the boss: he’s gruff and noncommunicative, and prefers his subordinates in a support role because that’s what he needs/wants as a manager. That’s all you can do.

    6. lemon*

      omg, I have worked for a boss just like this and also was forced to interview my replacements.

      My approach was to think about what some of the key issues with working with this kind of boss were, and focused my questions around that. For example, this boss liked to “delegate” by dumping massive projects on people with very little experience and provided very little guidance or support (but blamed them when things inevitably went off the rails). In order to be able to survive that, you have to be a good problem solver and have some comfort with managing your own projects. So I asked questions focused on that: “Tell me about how you approached this project that’s on your resume and the steps you took to complete it (followed up with questions about their specific role/contributions)” “How would you handle a project with rapidly changing deadlines and requirements?” “Tell me about a time you worked on a project where the goals/objectives were unclear,” etc.

      It was partly to get information from them on how they handle projects, but also partly to give them a head’s up about the environment they’d be working in.

    7. Anon Interviewer*

      Thank you everyone, you definitely gave me some things to think about. I was for sure not going to say “how do you cope when you work with a terrible person?” but I was blanking on professional questions that did not feel like flat out lying. I really appreciate the help!

      P.S. Thanks Alison for fixing my post!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        You know, I was asked “How do you deal with passive aggressive people?” twice in a half-day interview (two different interviewers). I had gotten some background context so I knew they were referring to someone I would have to work with at times, but not the hiring manager. Unfortunately I also knew that said person was responsible for running off the previous people (multiple) in the role I interviewed for, and the division made changes to ensure that person had less power (hence the PA attitude, I suppose?). It was good that they were up front about it and if I’d been more interested in the job that would not have put me off.

        So I agree with framing things to address the root of the issue, but I also think you can be more straightforward if you need to be.

  32. Lady Macbeth*

    A bit of a sensitive issue..I was promoted to management starting in January. Since we started working at home we have video meetings to solve any issues. When we are in the office we have our own offices and high walled cubicles (we work in the legal department of a financial firm so lots of confidential info). It can feel like there is less privacy sometimes because we can’t do the quick face to face chats we did back in the office. One of my employees confided to me that she has trichotillomania and that it gets worse when she is stressed. I offered my support and said for her to let me know if she needs aanything. Now during our video meetings her trichotillomania often comes out. She has pulled her hair and eyelashes out in full view of everyone while the meeting is going on. If her hair is in braids, pleats, dreadlocks or other styles she will undo them before pulling it. She has even pulled her own hair while under a wig. The last thing I want to do is cause her distress but it has raised lots questions and concerns among her coworkers and our clients. I have not disclosed her trichotillomania to anyone and kept it in complete confidence. I’m not even sure she realizes she is doing it. I’m unsure what to do now because our industry and area is very conservative (business formal dress every day) and when she does it (which is frequently and not a one off) it is noticeable and distracting. But the last thing I want is for her to be shamed. How would you address this with her if you were in my shoes?

    1. The New Normal*

      Is it possible to reach out and ask her how she would like it to be handled? Would she want you to shoot her a private text message when she is doing it on camera? Would she rather everyone ignores it? I would absolutely not acknowledge that any one else has seen it, but it will only increase her shame and stress, but you could ask her if she wants you to help by sending a text or if she would prefer to have her camera off.

      1. Lady Macbeth*

        Unfortunately having her camera off is not an option. Besides a mandate from those in charge (on camera, not covered) and the norms of our industry where we are, the software we use for video meetings does not allow users to share/view screens unless the camera is on. She could not participate in the meetings otherwise. If things were up to me I would change the software and allow it.

        My fear is that someone (especially a coworker I don’t manage, another manager or a client) will call her out or complain about. I know one client was distressed at seeing her repeatedly do it (it is never a quick pull of one hair) and there was murmuring from other coworkers who I don’t manage and who aren’t her peer about her ‘unprofessional behavior’ in a meeting. I don’t want her to get into trouble but I don’t make the rules and I’m afraid she will be thought badly of or unprofessional.

        1. EnfysNest*

          If she chooses to do this as an ADA request, being allowed to physically block her camera so that it only shows a black screen (or the camera faces a photo of her or something) would presumably fall well within reasonable accommodation, so that mandate wouldn’t matter. They would legally have to allow it and your company would have to ensure that she didn’t face any retaliation for using that option.

    2. juneybug*

      Technology solutions:
      Could she cover her camera with a post it note or camera cover?
      Could you reach out to your IT support to see if there is something they can do? Sometimes it’s as simple and changing her default settings.
      Could she call in instead of using her computer?

      Personnel solution:
      I would talk to her and gently explain that customers and coworkers “might” see her actions and ask her what you can do to support her. You do not want to tell her that others have complained (she’s already stressed!).
      You could see if there are job duties that could be switched or removed to help reduce her stress.

      Good luck!

    3. Joy*

      This is a fascinating question I have no idea how to answer — I wish it was for Allison given how complicated it seems!

      Since she’s disclosed it to you, I feel like you probably could have a conversation with it, and maybe should as you have people discussing it with you. Maybe take a problem-solving approach with her? Obviously you’re not going to fix the core issue here but maybe you can come up with some strategies for her to minimize it on video calls — can she focus on taking notes when in video calls? Turn off video if she’s able to? If it is unconscious, would she be open to you pinging her in a private channel when it becomes distracting?

    4. RagingADHD*

      For the sake of the other people who have to watch this, you need to say something. It is very distressing, as well as making them feel like they are intruding on her private issues. Trich is not clinically categorized as a form of “self-harm” in the psychological sense, but she is hurting herself and people shouldn’t have to be a captive audience for it.

      This isn’t about her appearance, it’s about finding an accommodation for her condition. Forcing everyone else to watch is not an appropriate accommodation.

      I’d suggest you have a conversation about what type of support would be helpful for her. Perhaps she can leave her camera activated but put tape over it. Perhaps a reminder in the moment would help. Perhaps she can set up an intentional task for her hands. But she definitely needs to know that doing it on camera is a problem that must stop, and she needs to be involved in figuring out the right way to address it.

      1. 867-5309*

        I do have to agree here. You would not expect other forms of self-harm to be viewed by others. This would be very distressing for me – I would be incredibly concerned for the individual and unable to focus on anything else.

        Can you frame this as an accommodation, as mentioned above, to IT and others? Is your team member seeing a therapist or doctor who could issue a note for it?

        1. valentine*

          For the sake of the other people who have to watch this, you need to say something.
          Especially the clients!

          You’re oddly super focused on (over)protecting this employee. Why? I think she’d want to know so many people (including clients!) have seen her do this and you’re making assumptions about the camera rule being hard and fast, instead of asking about it. As much as you want to keep this confidence, part of helping her is going to be asking about alternatives for her, assuming her participation is more important than whatever forcing everyone to be onscreen is doing for the company.

    5. kt*

      This is very hard, and I don’t know the full answer.

      For those who are interested, though, I have met the founders of HabitAware (a wearable that can help raise your awareness of when you’re engaging in trichotillomania) a few times, and they seem really cool and it seems like their wearable has really helped some people. I don’t know if it’s appropriate for you to suggest this kind of direct intervention, but if she mentions that she is simply not aware, it might be reasonable for you to mention that there are tech interventions that could help, and who knows, might be allowed under FSA or HSA or other insurance rules.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      It isn’t a full answer, but I feel like this is the key to it:

      it gets worse when she is stressed

      She has confided to you that she has this condition and that it’s exacerbated by stress, and now you are seeing it happen more often (I’ll assume that you would have noticed it before in the office if it had been happening, so probably it wasn’t) – so – isn’t it the case that the real issue you need to address isn’t the behaviour itself, but rather, why is it being exacerbated by stress now.

      Is there something in the work environment, home environment (did it start immediately or almost when you started working at home, or is it a recent development? I’m inferring recent since enforced WFH happened for a lot of people several months ago, yet you only asked about this today…) or whatever, that could have suddenly precipitated this?

      It could even have been a hint that “I am stressed” actually.

    7. 867-5309*

      Like someone else mentioned, I would also be curious for Alison’s take on this so perhaps submit the question to her as well.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      No speedy fix-it ideas from me. I do have a suggestion for the longer term, though. Tell your employee that she can pick a topic that is giving her stress and you guys will sit down together and work out some ideas about that particular stress.
      For example, she worries that her report is not good enough. Then go over what points a good report has, give her a check list so she can check her own work.
      In another example, she is one day late with her work. She is past the deadline and upset. Talk with her about which deadlines are hard deadlines and which deadlines allow wiggle room.

      Key part: Each of these conversations is about work. Each of these conversations should be short and should feel like a coaching session, filling in some of her knowledge gaps about the job. You should see clues that she is happy you talked with her.

      I have a situation right now, sorry can’t be too detailed. But the general idea is if the Person feels unsupported or feels they do not have enough support they get grumpy. I mean grumpy to the point that they are not likable. This is how stress manifests for this Person. The situation is such that if the grumpiness does not change Person will be fired.
      BUT. And here’s the punchline, when Person gets some time with a leader to go over specific questions, then Person changes. The difference is day and night. Person becomes happy and animated. Person works at their job even HARDER.
      So this tactic of setting up short 1-on-1’s to go over specific questions would be something I would consider here.
      ANNNND… people are amazing. I never stop marveling. I can ASSume that x or y is necessary for a situation. When I sit down to talk to the person, 9 times out of 10 they already know what they need and it’s unrelated A and B, which I never would have thought of.
      I think I would open the conversation with, “I’d like to go back in on the conversation about the concern with trich. I have noticed this on video, where you have been stressed and others can see. What I would like us to do is to talk about the various work settings that are stumbling blocks. I’d like to see if we can find practical ways of dealing with the work itself so that you are not so stressed. My thought is that you could line up specific questions and we could have a short 1-on-1 to go over those questions, if you would like. My second thought is I can recommend this really great blog that I read all the time and has been so helpful to me….. ;)”

      Then you can conclude with, “What do you think would be a helpful activity here?”

  33. D3*

    The dreaded “manager doesn’t want to address a problem with a few so they address everyone.

    My boss keeps telling us we need to buy equipment to fix tech issues on Zoom. We are contractors so that cost is on us, and she’s left it to us what to purchase. But some people are getting complaints so we ALL have been told to upgrade. I have already invested in mid grade equipment and I haven’t heard of any issues with my clients.

    I’ve asked my boss if I am getting complaints, if my midgrade equipment is good enough. I’ve asked four times. Every time I ask, within 3-4 hours EVERYONE gets a “reminder” that we have to do this and there are no exceptions.

    Having already invested in midgrade equipment, another upgrade would be expensive, and I’d rather not. I don’t know how else to push back, and we’re a small org so no one above her other than a director, who pretty much just leaves our dept to run autonomously.

    1. WellRed*

      If she doesn’t want to specifically tell you, yes, you need an upgrade, you should feel free to assume your good! After all, you DID upgrade. People that don’t set clear expectations deserve to not get the results they want but haven’t asked for.

    2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Buy a new mouse pad and call it a day? Not sure what you mean by equipment but if you already have a computer setup that is Zoom capable, then you have addressed your personal tech issues.

      Or push back as a group on equipment being “new” versus “meets these specific (described by boss in detail) minimal standards.” The first is silly and a lazy form of troubleshooting, the second is very reasonable.

      1. Shirley Keeldar*

        Hi, boss. I’m working on that equipment upgrade, as discussed. Can you provide specifics as to exactly what is needed? What kind of monitor/camera? Are headphones necessary? Is there a particular brand that’s required? I want to be sure I am getting what will work best for you and our clients. Thanks!

        If the boss never gets back with specifics, then I’d say you are in the clear.

    3. Teapot Librarian*

      I hate this. “Some of you aren’t doing X,” where X is subjective/qualitative. Am *I* doing X? I mean, there was that one time when it was obvious to me that I was the someone who wasn’t doing X, so does that mean that if it isn’t obvious to me, it’s probably not me? Just address the problem with the person who needs to hear it!

      1. D3*

        Right?!?!? It’s the worst. She has a habit of doing it because she thinks it avoids confrontation.
        When really it means that none of us know if we are the problem and we all have to take “corrective” measures.
        It’s the worst part of her managing, and I’ve worked for her forever. Usually if I ask or push back she tells me “it’s not you” but this time she won’t answer me personally at all.
        Which makes me wonder if it IS me this time….but who knows?

    5. JustaTech*

      This is simple: you have upgraded. You are using more than the minimum that came with your laptop. Just because you upgraded a while ago doesn’t mean you didn’t do it.

      “Boss, I have upgraded my video/audio system to [whatever you are using now for camera/audio/lights/background].”

  34. JustaTech*

    I’d like to give a shout out to, propose a toast to: ferociously organized coworkers!

    There are organized coworkers, and then there are the people who take hideously complicated systems (purchasing, I’m looking at you) and break them down and build them back up with spreadsheets and folders and documentation that is so organized, so clearly labeled, so sensibly put together that even when the coworker is laid off with no notice, there is no desperate scrambling for information. It’s all there, in one place (with backups in another easy-to-find place) ready for you to take over as though it had been a planned transition.

    Some people are worth their weight in gold. Ferociously organized coworkers (good lab managers being a subset of these) are worth their weight in saffron.
    Cheers!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Allow me to give my praise to my co-workers who document EVERYTHING!
      Me: Question
      Them: Here’s a link to all the information we collected on that topic. And here is a video someone made to walk you through this process change.

      solid.gold

      1. JustaTech*

        This has been one of my COVID projects – going back through all the ancient reports on one object and writing up the whole (usually convoluted) history of everything we have ever done with the Automatic Llama Braider.

        It’s already been useful when we had a new person start on one of my projects and she was like “how the heck did we get here?” and I could say “here’s the whole history, it’s a thing”.

        Now, part of why I’m doing it now is because as a company we have a terrible history of never writing anything down (or putting it “somewhere” that can never be found again), so I’m trying my best to get things collated and out of people’s brains and onto paper.

      2. Helvetica*

        Not to toot my own horn but I do this and I am bewildered by people who don’t. For context, in my organisation/field, we rotate between positions every 3-4 years, so you’d think people realize the importance of leaving documentation but I’ve heard so many stories of getting a “clean desk” from your predecessor. It just seems wildly unproductive. But I do love organizing files and keeping track of such things in general and also love sending such e-mails as above.

  35. Betty*

    Yesterday’s post about Ann Helen Petersen’s new book was very timely as I am dealing with major burnout and desperately want to change careers. I saw a handful of comments yesterday from people who said they were able to not be emotionally invested in their jobs and found something that provided decent pay and checked their boxes for job satisfaction. I know what is most important for me in a new career/job (using my critical thinking and problem solving skills, a mix of working independently and collaboratively with a small team, flexibility, decent pay), but I have no idea how to identify careers that might match. Does anyone have suggestions for careers that might fit or any ideas of how I go about identifying careers that check these boxes? Is this what a career coach does? Are there other ways to figure this out?

    1. N*

      I think that there are some sites out there where you can take quizzes and such to identify what kind of careers match your skills/personality and then you can go from there to search locally and see what kind of jobs are available.

    2. LPUK*

      It can also differ by company – I was relatively open to the industry I might be working in, but very clear on the corporate culture in which I flourished -one where decision-making is pushed down the line as far as it can be, as far from hierarchical without descending into chaos, collaboration was valued, employees were trusted and where learning environment was a priority and problem-solving was expected.

      1. Kiitemso*

        Hell, it may even differ by department! I’ve been a part of different offices’ work-flow within my company and some offices work like a charm, everybody carries their own tasks to perfection and collaborates, takes responsibility and help each other out, taking work off somebody’s plate if they notice they are too busy. Other offices, it’s a mess where communication doesn’t happen, people often reply “that’s not my problem” or “ask John” (John tells you “ask James”, communication going around in circles) and a drowning employee is faced with a shrug, not a helping hand. When a co-worker recently told me he’s switching offices, I told him genuinely, “Congrats, you’re joining a great group” because I knew first-hand his current office was a poop show and the one he was joining was a great place that functioned so much better.

  36. Chai Tea*

    How do you all deal with finishing projects in a timely manner when about half of the work week is dealing with “emergencies” that pop up out of no where?

    My boss keeps telling me that people feel like our office doesn’t deliver on time or that we ask for too much lead time to complete projects. We do marketing and PR and I handle the graphic design. I told her the only way we can get faster is if we add more designers. I already work over 40 hours a week and I don’t think that I’m slow at what I do. For an example, this week was totally derailed by a discussion on email signatures. I spent a day and a half in meetings and mocking up 4-5 different versions of our company email signature for the c-suite to approve. (this all happened AFTER a company-wide email went out from boss with our new email sigs. I guess the other managers didn’t like it.) They all went back and forth for another day and half with revisions. I had scheduled to finish two other projects during that time and they obviously became delayed. This happens ALL THE TIME. I try to keep my schedule really open because of this, but now I’m being told that we’re too slow.

        1. The Rural Juror*

          My boss does the same damn thing. I think it has to do with his ADD. If the project we’re working on isn’t really that fun, and is in the stage where things are kind of tedious, he’ll start to focus on the inconsequential things like, “Should we get company hats?”

          1. Chai Tea*

            Yes! I think they’re all afraid of making “BIG” decisions, so they perseverate on small inconsequential stuff.

            Which…fine. They can do that.

            But when it delays everything else and then our office (or just myself, I can’t tell which) get blamed for being too slow…I don’t think so. But I don’t know how to either fix it, or at least protect myself from it.

    2. tangerineRose*

      Can you start documenting where you’re spending your time? That might be a good way to push back because the details should make it clear how much of your time they’re wasting.

      1. Chai Tea*

        I have just started doing that! I think I need to get a paid version of a time tracker because the free one shows how much I’m working, but I can’t pull it out into discrete projects.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I know how to scare the crap out of them.

      The scene: A plume of smoke is coming off a machine in the middle of the area. Off to one side employees are arguing, it might get violent. Meanwhile, I am behind on a deadline. Boss comes up to me and says, “Unrelated X needs to be done in the next 5 minutes.”
      I just stop. Cold, hard, dead stop.
      And then I said, “That machine over there is probably on fire, those two over there are going to kill each other, Task A is not complete and now overdue. Plus you need Task X done.” Then as I sat down, I said, “Which one would you like me to do first?” My body language said, “I will sit here while you decide.”
      The color went right of the boss’ face.
      As she wandered off she said, “Just do what you can.”

      Here the technique is to have the presence of mind to be able to list off all that you are doing. And to have the presence of mind not to let any upset you have show. I was able to do that because I decided the whole situation was absurd and not worth my upset.

      1. SoftwareWiz*

        As a software engineer for heavy equipment (not garbage trucks, but you get the idea) I have the same problem. A machine in the field is down, this $1M machine must ship Wednesday with the new special feature, and here is another top priority project.
        As stated above, make sure to list what you are working on, and the consequences of what happens if you do the emergency work. Will the $1M machine not ship until next week, so the customer cancels the order? Also, remind you boss that the interruption pushes the entire work schedule out 15 minutes to avoid frequent interruptions and progress checks.

  37. blepkitty*

    Grandboss, a couple months ago: What are you *doing* with all that time? You need to ask your boss for more work!
    Me (repeatedly): Hey boss, do you have anything for me to do?
    Boss: No. (Or she gives me individual tasks that never take up anything close to all my hours.)

    Later:
    Boss: Go on LinkedIn Learning and find some trainings to watch. Send them to me for approval before you watch them.
    Me: *sends a few that look relevant to my job*
    Boss: Grandboss has decided llama grooming isn’t a priority, so these are out for now.

    I don’t get it. I hardly have anything to do except read books on how to do my job, and I can’t do that all day, every day. Why is it a problem for me to watch training videos on an aspect of my job that isn’t a current priority when I don’t have anything else to do?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I can’t tell you why it’s a problem because I agree, that’s weird, but I think you might have to reframe this conversation. “Go on LinkedIn Learning and find some trainings to watch.” “OK, any particular areas you would like me to focus on?” and press her a bit if she waffles. If she’s still vague, make sure you’re looking for variety.

      Does your boss know about your conversation with her boss? That her boss thinks you need to ask for more work? I know that you asked, but does your boss understand the motivation? That might kick things into gear. Don’t assume your boss’s boss spoke to her about this.

      1. blepkitty*

        Oh, I sent her the question, but past experience tells me she’ll find a way to dodge it. Or misinterpret.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          This sounds like a good time to pick up the phone and talk about it. She can’t dodge as easily that way!

          1. blepkitty*

            No, she really will still dodge or misunderstand. She doesn’t understand anything I ask, to an utterly flabbergasting degree. I wasn’t actually asking for advice on dealing with her; I was hoping for potential reasons people could think of, because there is zero hope of ever getting anything out of her. I’ve been trying for a year.

            1. Chai Tea*

              Can you cc your grandboss on these emails with her? I know that’s generally frowned upon, but maybe it will motivate her? Or at least get grandboss to assign you work?

              Do you know WHY she won’t assign you work? Is she bad a delegating?

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Honestly, sometimes you just have to find your own work if your boss isn’t helpful or giving you anything. I started out at a job like this with very little to do and was finding it hard. My boss wasn’t trying to hoard work or anything, she just truly didn’t have much to give me. I dug around and found free courses that I could do on my own to help with my field, and I found some work that could be improved and I asked if I could do it. When our company bought out another one and they needed work done from our group, I volunteered immediately. I basically had to build up a stable of projects and now two years in I am at a nice comfortable capacity that I can handle.

      If you aren’t having much luck with your boss, maybe sit down with your grandboss with some ideas of things you might be able to work on, or ask for projects they need help with?

  38. Pepper Potts*

    So I started a new job in March and I have my first annual merit reviews coming up soon. I reached out to a teammate just to get the background about what our boss/company typically expect from the self assessment part of our reviews. The conversation was super helpful.

    However, as part of the conversation, he brought up an email from our department head where she suggested reaching out to the managers of coworkers we had worked with closely to offer prose or other insights if we felt the urge to do so. So my teammate suggested that we both do that for each other. I don’t have a huge problem with this, as my teammate has been helpful over the 7 months I’ve been here, but nothing to the point where I naturally would feel the urge to especially commend him. But he already said he would do the same for me, so I kind of feel like an asshole if I didn’t. I don’t want to commit a faux pas but I also don’t want to offer insincere praise.

    Advice?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      First year, you can possibly skate by on something like “Jarvis has been welcoming and helpful in my onboarding at Llamas Inc. He has been very approachable when I have had questions about where the grooming tools are kept and our procedure for hoof polishing and I have appreciated his assistance.” (Assuming that’s all true, of course. This obviously gets a lot harder if he’s a jerk who doesn’t answer questions and tells you to go look it up yourself when he knows it’s not actually in writing anywhere.)

      1. Pepper Potts*

        Nah, he’s not a jerk. But like idk, hasn’t gone above and beyond? Maybe I’m being too stingy with praise and I just send a short note. But then I feel like I should DEFINITELY do it for my teammates who really have gone above and beyond to help me out and answer all my newbie questions.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Then I’m lining up behind Emilitron below, who suggests one email expressing support of all your coworkers, and then identifying the ones who have been extra useful. :)

    2. Emilitron*

      If you’ve got confirmation from the dept head that this emailing-in-support-of-coworkers really is something they want to have happen, then yes, do it. If there are coworkers other than this guy (I’m calling him Cecil) who have the same manager, I’d suggest a single email, in which you can be more enthusiastic about some but definitely include positive words about Cecil. I think you’re right that if you only comment on Cecil, and then say mildly enthusiastic things, you might be sending weird messages.

      1. Policy Wonk*

        Depends on where you work. Where I would that would be a problem. Couldn’t add the e-mail to the person’s file because it contains info on others. If you are going to do it, you don’t want your efforts either ignored or to cause someone to have to cut out parts of the message, which will look weird in a personnel file.

  39. Anonononononymous*

    Not sure if I need advice or just to vent. I’ve been working on a project with a co-worker that I took a while to warm up to. Thought we were finally getting along. Well, our project was really close to done, but when we sent it out for wider review someone asked a really complex technical question we hadn’t thought of. So we’re going to have to do some more work. This is actually a pretty normal thing to have happen when we’re writing procedures.

    Apparently co-workers think it’s the end of the world. Got in this morning to a nasty-gram from co-worker (cc:ed to her supervisor but not mine) impugning my professional expertise and trying to throw me under the bus for not thinking of the questions – even though she didn’t think of it either. I’m livid, but also can’t help being amused that she misspelled a key component of my job duties (along with a couple other big words). So I’m angry enough that I asked her boss to meet with me, but it’s hard to take her seriously at the same time.

    1. Work/Life Balance*

      people have lost their minds. I have gotten something like this recently and a friend of mine said, add the words “and there’s a pandemic” to every thought.
      “Apparently co-workers think it’s the end of the world” yes and decided to share their misery. Be the calm sane one. What you wrote right here is the perfect response. These things happen. This is how we are dealing with it. Gosh I wish we both had foreseen this question. Alas. If you are feeling that you need to – have a chat with your supervisor.

    2. IsItOverYet?*

      Have a similar (tho not as bad) situation with a co-worker. They are just a bit too high strung – anything that doesn’t go smoothly results in a “it’s the end” freak-out. I’d be livid in your shoes too (my cw just pushes all her stress on me, so I’m not getting thrown under the bus at least). Glad they at least gave you something to be amused by!

      When you talk to her boss I would frame it from a “this level of stress isn’t helping and since this type of feedback is normal, how can we get coworker to roll with the punches better.” I wouldn’t go in defensive because you did nothing wrong and (at least in my office) if you start from a defensive point people assume you have something to be defensive about and get stuck on that issue and not on the real issue.

    3. WellRed*

      If she’s a coworker of equal rank what is it that you hope to achieve by speaking with her boss rather than asking her directly what’s up?

      1. Anonononononymous*

        Well, she’s the one who pulled her supervisor into it. If she had just emailed me, then I would have been annoyed, but willing to talk it out with her. But she cc:ed her supervisor (and another agency expert we brought in to help), and I feel like it’s her supervisor’s job to make sure she understands how unprofessional her email was.

        Our weird organizational structure is at play here as well. She and I are on a work team whose work is coordinated by her supervisor, but that person is not the supervisor of everyone on the team. I am currently without a direct supervisor – have been for almost two years now – and I don’t think this is worth taking up the chain to the head of our entire agency, which would be the next person up the org chart for me personally.

        Mostly I just don’t want to have to deal with it personally. Today is my last day before my vacation and I really did not want to have to deal with this shit today.

        1. WellRed*

          She’s making herself look bad here, especially ccing an outside expert, on her email which sounds over the top. And full of misspellings; ) hope you get this dealt with and enjoy vacation.

          1. Anonononononymous*

            To close the circle, her boss was not pleased about that email and is talking to co-worker about it. She asked me what I wanted to see happen. Supervisor and I have worked together on a lot of projects in the past and I know her pretty well. So I told her I trusted her to make sure co-worker didn’t just make mouth noises about understanding why it was inappropriate, but that she really actually understood why. So that she doesn’t do it again…not just to me, but to anyone.

            The supervisor was also concerned about it not happening again. She even mentioned the importance of documenting the conversations now just in case. That blew me away. So I’m doing much better.

            Thanks to everyone who replied.

  40. Leah K.*

    I am looking to improve my home office setup. Can anyone recommend a good webcam with a built-in mic that’s reasonably priced, is compatible with WebEx, and doesn’t require a ton of software to be installed on your machine (our IT doesn’t like us to install third party software without ridiculous amount of approvals)? I’ve been looking at Logitech C920 and C922.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      The one that was sent out to everyone on my team is either a C920 or C922, I can’t tell which and I don’t still have the box, but whichever one it is, it works fine with WebEx (and Teams) and doesn’t require software installation. I don’t use the built-in mic though, so I can’t speak to its quality.

      1. Polar Bear Hug*

        I have that one too, Logitech C920 or 922 (the computer thinks it’s one, i thought it was the other, so who knows) and I DO use the built-in mic, and it works well. It’s clipped to my monitor so it gets a good angle on me and I’ve listened to recordings and I sound fine.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      I just got myself an Aluratek [model ?] and it was totally plug and play with my computer. It was…$60? And I’ve had meetings on FB Messenger, Teams, Zoom, and Webex, all without any audio or video problems.

  41. Box of Kittens*

    Job question – search or wait?

    I’m a one-person marketing department within 5 years of my marketing degree. I had no marketing internships or jobs before this job, and I’m realizing now how much I am kind of in over my head. I am familiar with all sorts of marketing ideas and topics but have no clue how to implement them in the real world. I am thinking that for my career, it would be better long-term to look for something where I can work with a team. The company I’m currently at really would be better served by someone much higher-level than me.

    My question is, should I seriously job-search now, or try to do some more intensive training to grow into this role? My industry is very collaborative and I have the opportunity to do a mentor program next year. But it’s not a guarantee, it’s not until next year, and even then I’m not sure it would get me to where I want to be personally or to where it would most benefit my company. The obstacle with job-searching though is that the only person who can *really* speak to my work experience is my current supervisor. I’m toying with the idea of sitting her down and laying all this out, esp. the part about how I think they really need someone more experienced in this role, so that I can go ahead and use her as a reference. What would you do here?

    1. juneybug*

      Why not have your boss help you grow into your career? Maybe she hired you to do that (knowing you didn’t have experience)?
      Could you grab a few peers to help you grow with your marketing skills? You could try to find folks from an association or other networks.
      Have you looked at LinkedIn or other online marketing career learning paths?

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      I tend to always encourage people who are thinking of looking for a new job, to just do it. Applying and interviewing does not mean you will definitely leave your job/organization. But it does help you see what else is out there and if you find something that is a better fit, great. If not, you have a lost a little time and maybe you have a new appreciation for your current position.

    3. 867-5309*

      I’m CMO of a medium-sized company and previously was SVP of one of the largest global marketing firms. Someone with 5 years experience as the sole marketing person (especially if it’s their only experience vs. a second or third job) i’sn’t at the same experience level as someone who has spent the last 5 years working with a team of marketers and reporting to someone who is also in marketing. For career growth alone, I would suggest looking for new opportunities.

      We interviewed a candidate who looked great on resume but when it came to the last interview round where we requested references, they were all operations. None of them could speak to his marketing in a way that helped us – they said things like he was creative or organized – but couldn’t speak to actual marketing metrics and performance. This was one reason he did not get the job. Your manager might be different but if not, it will hold you back later.

      1. Box of Kittens*

        That is exactly what I was afraid of – that I’m not at the level I should be for how long I’ve technically been in a marketing position. Thanks so much for answering this; you really confirmed my gut feeling.

  42. Kowalski! Options!*

    Where my peeps at?
    Seriously, where did everyone I work with get to? Are they having fun without me? Have I totally lost track of time and it’s actually, really Saturday, and not Friday? Did they make a blood pact of silence so that they could go to Costco? Am I right in worrying that something crazy is going to break loose thirty minutes before quitting time, and I will be unable to handle it?

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      (I posted this semi-facetiously, but I am starting to wonder, since no one’s responding to e-mails or pings…)

    2. Emilitron*

      If they are like me, they are all ferociously catching up on things they swore they’d do this week and ignoring email because they just can’t today. It’s the flip side of TGIF, the “Holy crap it’s Friday already”

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I haven’t received an email for 2 hours, so I feel you. (Also, I’m physically in the office today and have seen 1 person in the last 5 hours).

    4. Can't Sit Still*

      My team is mostly attending a virtual conference that is restricted to 2 attendees when it’s in-person. It’s made for a very quiet week.

    5. hillary*

      If it’s like my office, they’re all on vacation. Seriously, everyone is on vacation this week, unless they’re on vacation next week. We’re all trying to use our vacation before the end of the year.

  43. Work/Life Balance*

    This work from home thing has been terrific productivity wise but I have fallen into old habits of blurred boundaries with time/work/life.
    Tips on how to walk away from work, email, etc? My mind keeps saying if I follow up on this email or this request right now, then it won’t be piled up on Monday. This has come to a head as I worked through last weekend- (a special event) but found that I couldn’t take comp time this week. (totally my fault, no one is standing over me)

    1. Kiitemso*

      This is why I think companies should provide a work laptop. When the clock hits *whatever* o’clock you close the work laptop and physically put it away, out of sight out of mind, and focus on your leisure time.

      If you are working on your own laptop, I would still set a timer, log out of work email when it goes off at 5 or 6pm and maybe start an hour earlier on Monday if you’re afraid of the weekend workload pile up. Same with the work phone, if you have one. Turn it off, set aside.

    2. Dissatisfied*

      Don’t put your work email or other forms of work communication (e.g. Slack) on your personal phone. If you must have them on your phone, turn off notifications outside of work hours. I have a separate work phone and work laptop, and at the end of the day I put them in my laptop case and put it on an out-of-the-way shelf so I don’t even think of them.

      As far as the lack of comp time, that might be worth talking to your boss about. Maybe you can delay the comp time for a few weeks, or maybe you need to restructure you priorities/workload.

    3. Emilitron*

      As a conscientious worker, I get the “yay I did it!” dopamine hit from finishing work tasks. One of my issues in the pandemic is that with many other activities canceled I have fewer options for getting those dopamine hits from other sources, so actually doing work keeps popping up as what I “want” to be doing with my time. Not that I really want to, it’s just that I haven’t established other things to do that are as rewarding so I keep drifting back to it.
      I can’t give you instructions on how to fix this (because duh I haven’t fixed it!), but I’m trying to schedule more things into my free time to keep it freer from work. Actually write down on a piece of paper some activities you’d like to do this weekend – a recipe, a Zumba video, a few friends or relations to check in with, a walk, a TV series you want to watch… can include a project you’ll feel good about completing but don’t turn this into a to-do list of chores. And then I feel good about not only the activity, but about doing what I said I’d do, and when I’m busy there’s less time to fill with working.

    4. cmcinnyc*

      Is the pile of work on Monday so bad? I clock out on Friday and my team works like loons all weekend, at all hours. They know I don’t. They know I’ll do it Monday. For us, this works. YMMV.

      But yeah, Mondays are a tear. I have a pile of email and I have to tick through it at top speed to be reasonably caught up before staff meeting. Staff meeting generates more work. However, this makes Mondays go by in a flash.

    5. PollyQ*

      Two thoughts:

      1. Tell your mind that if you don’t take true breaks away from work, you’re going to get burned out which will make ALL your tasks harder to complete.

      2. As an interim step, turn off everything on weekends through Sunday evening, then take ~30 minutes to skim through your inbox, just to delete or file things you don’t have to do anything for. But anything that actually needs work has to wait until Monday!

  44. Victoria, Please*

    First of two questions about diversity and inclusion:

    My job is to schedule small workshops and trainings for faculty at my university. They are entirely optional, no one ever has to participate. I scheduled one for Monday, and got an email from a faculty member who never does participate, that it was Yom Kippur and I should not schedule anything on Yom Kippur. Their tone was jocular, but it was clearly a “Fail on the diversity front” message from that person. My question is, on the scale of disrespectful-and-offensive to rather-insensitive to no-problem-don’t-worry, where is this?

    (I do feel embarrassed because I didn’t even think of Yom Kippur (and my son and his wife are Jewish, so I should know), but that’s more about my pride.)

    1. Ramona Q*

      It’s incredibly disrespectful. (And I say that as an atheist Jew who barely practices.) Yom Kippur is a holy day for the Jewish people, who are also among those increasingly and violently persecuted under America’s white supremacist systems of governance. You should reschedule your event and apologize, and do better in the future to be aware of non-Christian holidays. (Google Calendar will even keep track of them for you.)

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s pretty disrespectful, to be honest. Yom Kippur is pretty prominent on a bunch of calendars, so this one warrants an apology. There are a bunch of people who will probably just sigh and say, “Well, I guess I won’t attend,” but it would be nice if that were a choice rather than a necessity.

      I’m not entirely unsympathetic, believe me, and I can certainly see how you didn’t realize and didn’t think of it (assuming you didn’t check a global calendar). But that doesn’t mean it’s not a big deal. I have to have this conversation way more than I’d like, usually in the form of, “I can’t make it that night because it’s Yom Kippur, what are my options?” and it’s frustrating.

      Going forward, if you are in charge of scheduling, make a note that there are two major Jewish holidays in the fall that should not be scheduled over. And double check that the calendar you use indicates major Jewish and Muslim holidays.

      1. AnonInTheCity*

        Diwali falls around that time too. Half our team is in India so it’s important to make sure our releases are scheduled around it.

    5. LPUK*

      Over here in UK – Yom Kippur is not generally listed in calendars – though tbf neither are most other religious dates outside Christian – and even those only cos they happen to be public holidays, so its not universally a DREADFUL Thing, though a little thoughtless. Saying that, I tend to set up meetings more with a view to travel arrangements ( ie not requiring OOH travel) than religious dates, so I probably need to join you in the sin bin!

    6. HR Bee*

      It’s definitely a pretty big deal. My husband’s professional association scheduled their annual, national conference over Yom Kippur. These conferences are planned years in advance (like the next five years locations and dates are listed in advance), change locations every year, etc etc… Somehow it wasn’t discovered until the year before. They immediately apologized and worked with the hotels/conference center to change the dates of the conference just a year before. It was a huge undertaking, but so necessary. Please reschedule.

    7. Victoria, Please*

      And man, I am scouring our university website for religious holiday calendar information, and NOT FINDING IT!! Several websites mention going to the master calendar for religious holidays — but the master calendar *doesn’t* include the information! One website mentions a multicultural holiday calendar but no link, and it’s nowhere to be found.

      I feel just slightly less bad, since I am obviously not the only insensitive ass.

      Off to ask, innocently, where such information might be located.

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        If you’re asking the person who told you about the conflict, don’t. Don’t make someone who has already told you about your error do further work to compensate for your ignorance, especially in the faux-disingenuous “innocent” way of “I couldn’t possibly have known”.

        Google exists. Interfaith calendars exist. Do your own work to fix this.

        1. Victoria, Please*

          I didn’t. Come on. I’ve already been told, and accepted, that I was disrespectful, I don’t need to be told I’m lazy and stupid and shown my ass, too. The university website should have this. The person I am asking innocently is the public affairs office who takes care of the calendar.

          1. pancakes*

            Respectfully, I think it’s a bit lazy to look only on the university’s site. It should only take a few moments to check whether the university maintains a useful calendar or not, and find one elsewhere if it doesn’t. “Religious calendar 2020” pulls up pages and pages of options.

      2. MacGillicuddy*

        I suggest going to whatever department is in charge of the master calendar, and asking (read: “strongly suggest”) that they list such holidays on the master calendar.

    8. Lovecraft Beauty*

      It’s really not great. Like, it’s not a fireable offense, but you have shown your ass and should apologize.

    9. Lisanthus*

      I would personally find it highly disrespectful and offensive, speaking as someone Jewish who has encountered both passive and aggressive anti-Semitism in academe many times over the years.

    10. lapgiraffe*

      Last year one of the suppliers we work with created a very interesting event complete with international special guests, it was a multi city tour and they told us the date they wanted to do in our city – Yom Kippur. We pointed this out, and while it’s likely the international guests were not Jewish coming from a predominately Catholic area, our industry has a very large percentage of Jewish people and we tried to explain that it would not be well attended and would probably be construed as offensive, to which they scoffed and booked it anyway. I was in the worst position where I had to make sure my prominent customers knew of the event, so as to not feel left out, while acknowledging that they clearly would not be coming and I know this is offensive and I’m sorry it was out of our hands please don’t hold this against me. 100% the event flopped, and a few of my customers definitely held it against this supplier and did not purchase anything related to them, and understandably so.

    11. Work/Life Balance*

      Yes. My last university administration scheduled diversity training on Rosh Hashanah. It was mandatory. Then when I brought it to their attention, they said it wasn’t mandatory. Yes. scheduling a diversity training on a major holiday is a diversity fail. It doesn’t matter if that faculty member never attends. Think to yourself. Would you have scheduled this training on Christmas day? That is the equivalent in terms of importance. Offensive? Hey, we are used to it.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I hate that I’m only just starting to accept that yes, this is bothersome, and yes, I should stop being super forgiving about it. Especially now that I’m over a decade into my career and I have the seniority to say no.

      2. Fresh prince*

        The difference is that whenever someone schedules a meeting over the non-protestant holidays I observe, I just tell them to reschedule and don’t get offended. Don’t assume malice at all times.

      3. Barb*

        It’s not the same thing because Christmas is a national holiday, so everyone has to recognize it, regardless of their faith. Someone who’s Muslim or atheist or any other background is still forced to know about Christmas. The bias here isn’t at the individual level, it’s systematic.

    12. Working Hypothesis*

      It’s one of the most important holidays in the calendar. Yeah, scheduling something opposite it is a big deal.

  45. Victoria, Please*

    Second of two questions about diversity and inclusion:

    As mentioned above, my job is to schedule small workshops and trainings for faculty at my university. I got a request from a department chair to provide something on reducing “annoying vocal habits” (sic) for international faculty or non-native English speakers. I’m very torn on this — on one hand, it seems incredibly unwelcoming to say to someone you’ve hired, *knowing* how they speak, “Change this fundamental thing about you.” On the other, the students do need to be able to understand their professors, and students often take it out hard on professors when there’s an accent barrier. So is it supportive of faculty’s (and students’) success, inclusive and equitable; or is it insulting, to offer such a training?

    1. Rain In Spain*

      This is notably not my field, but I think this is insulting. You’re working with highly educated faculty. I think it’s different if faculty themselves ask for training after receiving negative feedback from students. But also, part of learning and being a global citizen etc is getting exposed to people who speak (and think, etc) differently than you do.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Oh, my gut response is NOOOOOOO. I presume you don’t offer a class to students to get them to reduce annoying vocal habits such as saying “like” every third word. The framing sounds less like annoying vocal habits and more like “get rid of your accent.”

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      This would be a hard no – providing this type of training would be highly offensive. Do you have someone who oversees diversity & inclusion at your university? I would talk to them or HR about this. Not to “report” the chair, but to get guidance on what is and is not appropriate for these training.

    4. Twisted Lion*

      So insulting. Dont do it! Like my French accent is anything to write about. I dont need anyone pointing it out to me.

    5. Theory of Eeveelution*

      You got your answer from others, but I’d actually bump that email from the department chair up the chain with the implication that their opinion on this is deeply troubling.

      Also, for what it’s worth, if it’s your job to arrange training that’s inclusive and accessible for all, but you needed clarity on these two incredibly obvious issues, maybe you’re not the best person to handle this job. Or, at least, you might want to look into some further training for yourself so you’ll feel more empowered in your role.

    6. Anon for This*

      In addition to accents, you could have issues with people who stutter, who lisp, who have Tourette’s, etc. Not only is it totally insulting, but it could fall afoul of ADA.

    7. Reba*

      Maybe there should be a training for department chairs on how much weight to (not) give to student evaluations, which are known to simply echo widespread prejudices about race, gender, and nationality, yet continue to be used in some tenure dossiers!

    8. Gina*

      Insulting, offensive, and potentially opens you up to discrimination claims. Do not do this!

      I think you might benefit from some training in diversity and inclusion yourself, if you are struggling with these issues. Are you the only person overseeing the delivery of these trainings, and responsible for making them available? Who do you report to? What’s their role? Were you hired specifically for this, and if so did you have the experience necessary? What support, training and advice is available to you? What do you need to feel confident, capable and clear on these issues?

    9. Former Student*

      Not gonna disagree with other comments, but… I certainly remember being in school and having difficulty understanding some instructors! And I don’t know how you approach it from your end. Are professors required to have a specific spoken fluency? I really have no idea. It seems like waiting to address issues until enough complaints are lodged isn’t helpful to profs or students, though.

      1. Imtheone*

        Our university offers programs for faculty to improve their teaching, covering area like improving how they speak, how they deliver information and how they communicate. Faculty can ask for someone to observe and record them teaching and they can study the recording and get help with issues. That seems much more appropriate for the university to offer as part of their initiative to improve teaching.

    10. Black Horse Dancing*

      Honestly, Victoria Please, I feel for you because numerous people I know have have this issue. International professor is hired, is fluent, but so heavily accented, no one can understand them. It’s not fair to the students or professor. My own spouse hand a brand new prossor teaching a complex math class, My spouse is in tears because she can’t understand the words. She had to drop the class–she wasn’t the only one–and take it with another professor. Honestly, a simple introduction class to the new hires explaining the culture of the university plus what is is expected and a heavy emphasis in clear communication may all it takes.

    11. Bobina*

      The way its phrased is gross, but the solution is to sign *every* professor up to a Presentation Skills training course. It was a mandatory class in my grad school for all students (I wish it also applied to faculty), but was honestly one of the most useful things I still use in my professional life. Ours covered everything from speaking, posture/mannerisms, videos, slides etc.

    12. BelleMorte*

      You could have a presentation skills workshop that addresses vocal tics such as umm uhhh like.. amongst other things that will help present clearly. This could be for all staff, not just non-native speakers.

      Accents should be off the table though, correcting accents is extremely specialized intensive work and treads into cultural discrimination.

  46. Does anybody realize I have two kids in virtual learning?*

    I’m a bit low. We just had a second round of layoffs yesterday. My kids are both in virtual learning and while our working hours were cut, they are not conducive to helping with virtual learning. We’re being asked to rally, put in extra effort etc to get through this until business picks back up. Does anybody have advice for those left behind in a layoff? How do I muster the strength to work harder when I was already at my limit?

    1. Marthooh*

      If you’re already at your limit, you have to assume that the “extra effort” message is meant for other people, not you. We’re all trying to get by as best we can! Take care of your family, do your work, hope for a good outcome; that’s all you can do right now.

  47. Working Mom*

    I am expecting my second child this spring, and we are so excited! It’s still early, so we haven’t told anyone yet. I was at the same company/role (but different boss) when I had my first child and everyone was great about planning for my maternity leave and making accommodations when I returned. I disclosed my first pregnancy at 12 weeks (second trimester). I am up for a promotion in December. My company is very family friendly and my boss in particular is extremely supportive (and a mom herself), but I’m nervous about sub-conscious bias or pregnancy discrimination. I don’t want to wonder if I wasn’t promoted because my manger or grand boss were thinking of my upcoming leave, having another baby at home, etc. We are all working from home through the end of the year, so I’d decided to wait until after my review to ensure it’s not a factor.

    However, my boss has been talking about moving up the timeline for an annual project I lead. She thinks with some new tools we’ve developed, we could move up the publication two whole months, which would help our revenue significantly. I completely agree- the new timeline is possible- if I wasn’t going to be on leave right in the middle of it! I’m trying to steer her away from this new timeline, but I’m starting to think it would be better to disclose my pregnancy soon, rather than stick to the original plan and risk her thinking I’m sand-bagging the project planning.

    For what it’s worth, my boss is a big ideas person, and about 30-40% of her ideas are unworkable. For the most part, she’s reasonable when I disagree and is receptive to my reasoning, but in my mid year review she said I was “conservative” and “risk-averse”, and I’m worried that saying no to the expedited timeline will play into that narrative. Any advice?

    1. Rain In Spain*

      Congrats!

      Would anyone else be able to take over and finish it while you’re out? How much lead time does the project need? Ie if the project requires shorter lead time than what you’ll have left after you announce your pregnancy and before your anticipated leave, then you may be able to revisit it. Or are there other, legitimate reasons the new timeline might not work well? Trying to brainstorm!

    2. NW Mossy*

      For something like this, it’s perfectly valid to treat your leave as if it were not a certainty. You may know it is, but people unexpectedly take leave in the middle of big projects all the time and we find a way to make it work.

      With that frame in mind, I’d suggest continuing with your plan to wait to announce until after your promotion review. Alongside that, you can ease your mind on the project by pitching overall risk mitigation as part of the project planning. It sounds like this timeline would be wholly new, so you have a natural opening to talk about how it may have vulnerabilities that the old one didn’t – conflicts with other ongoing work done by the same people you need here, budgeting, less upfront planning time, and so on. From there, it’s about structuring the project in such a way that it can stay on course even if the risks you identify come to pass.

      In my job, I get a lot of mileage out of substituting “no” with “how will we account for X and Y?” when I’m responding to someone else’s insane plan. I’m not directly saying it’s insane and looking resistant, but I’m opening the door for the insane-plan-haver to realize that they don’t have good answers for the insanity and stand down. It’s remarkably effective at getting bad ideas killed without damaging my relationships.

      1. Green Goose*

        I agree that it’s better to wait until you are comfortable disclosing this, especially since you said that your manager’s plans tend to not always pan out. And you might be trying to work everything around maternity leave and other’s availability and then one of you coworkers might end up leaving/getting sick/also pregnant so best to just go with your plan.

  48. Filosofickle*

    I walked away from a job interview this week because they insisted it had to be in person.

    In July I had a phone screen with an internal recruiter, did an assignment, then crickets. We’d talked about salary and their top line was my bottom line, so I figured that counted me out. Fast forward 2 months, and someone new pops up to schedule a multi-person interview. Only after we scheduled did I learn it was to be onsite! That never crossed my mind as a possibility. Wouldn’t you mention that?

    They took my request for video back to the hiring manager and it was refused. I have no big risk factors, so it isn’t highly dangerous to me personally — but it sure is unnecessary, and not taking unnecessary risks matters. I’m not hanging out indoors with anyone these days except my parents and partner! There is no reason a first interview has to be in person. After just 15 minutes with a recruiter, I don’t even know if I’m seriously interested. (Especially since they never confirmed my salary requirement was doable.) It feels like they are asking me to jump through hoops. It’s also a red flag that our expectations and priorities don’t match. If they’ll ask this now, what later?

    They did say it would be socially distanced, in a large conference room with masks. While I appreciate that, trying to project across a large table and sweating under my mask for an hour and a half sounds terrible!

    Worth noting that my area remains very cautious which makes it more surprising. We’re still on shelter in place. Schools are closed. Haircuts have only been open a few weeks and indoor dining never opened. We must wear masks within 30 feet, and compliance is strong. Based on what I hear, I assumed that in this area and in my field (this was a comms job), I’d be 100% remote through at least the end of this year. And that’s important to me. Requiring an in-person interview told me they probably wouldn’t be okay with that. (I did ask. They didn’t know but their team is coming in one day a week.)

    Last note: it’s a health care org! My own HMO, in fact, as well as a favorite longtime client. Their doctors have been able to do video appts for years so it’s not like they can’t support the tech. I’m disappointed in them; I thought they’d be awesome as a pandemic employer. I know people at this org who are still completely WFH, so it may be a group / boss level decision. And this group is sticking to the old ways. As a health care org, they may well have decided it IS safe with the precautions, but that doesn’t work for me.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    1. Betty D*

      I have recently done the same thing, also with another local hospital system in their corporate office.
      They wanted an in person interview, because no one has been working from home at all during the entire pandemic. They all just wear masks all day and work in their cubes. No thanks.

      1. Filosofickle*

        Right? Commuting in just to sit in a cube with a mask all day is a non-starter, even once a week. (For a job that otherwise doesn’t need to be in person. Certainly plenty of people are doing this, some for very good reasons. There’s no reason here other than some manager’s idea of what work looks like.)

    3. RagingADHD*

      I think we’re at the stage now where nobody can assume a position is remote unless it’s listed as such. If in-person is a dealbreaker, you should ask up front.

      I’m not saying it should be that way, but so many, if not most, businesses seem to have phased out of the everyone-remote-as-default position.

        1. RagingADHD*

          And got told none of the other workers are 100% remote, and they “didn’t know” if working 100% remote would be allowed, or for how long.

          So if it’s a dealbreaker, why not withdraw then? Why act surprised that they want to do an in-person interview?

          1. Filosofickle*

            Because last time we talked, it was entirely remote. Everyone was entirely remote at that time. I didn’t find out they were doing any onsite work until they asked me to come onsite for an interview.

      2. Filosofickle*

        It’s true, being fully remote can’t be assumed unless it’s stated or discussed. When I spoke with the recruiter in the beginning we did talk about it. It was all remote for the foreseeable future, eventually coming back in to the office. I was okay with that. Obviously things have changed since then. So when I was contacted about the interview I asked for an update on remote/onsite and they didn’t know. They said they’d take my questions to the hiring manager, but then required me to decide about the interview before getting me that info as well as confirming if we were aligned on salary. Knowing those things would have been very helpful and may have changed my decision. Without any additional info, I declined.

        Look, I get that I’m being high maintenance. But no other company I’ve talked to has any intention of coming back at least through the year, or at least until masks aren’t required in the office.

        1. Filosofickle*

          To be more clear, it was clear the job would ultimately NOT be remote. I did expect it to remain temporarily fully remote for a couple more months if not longer. (And for all I know, that might still be possible but I’ll never know.) We’re just out of sync on the timeline and what’s necessary.

  49. Academically Inclined*

    Tips to stay motivated through rounds of rejection? My specific issue right now is academic paper rejection — one paper just boomeranged back to me from its FOURTH journal in as many months — but could apply to anything: job search, creative rejections, grant applications … I’m just getting really tired of falling off the bike.

    1. Dissatisfied*

      First, be kind to yourself. Repeated rejection is hard for anyone.

      I had a 5 month bout of unemployment last year, and what helped with job application rejections was, after I prepared and submitted an application, to assume I probably wouldn’t hear back and move on to the next position. Easier said than done, of course, and it required tricky compartmentalization because I had to remain motivated and optimistic when writing cover letters and submitting the applications to maintain my motivation.

      Also, I don’t know your field, but I’m close to someone who’s getting a humanities PhD, and it’s super common for papers to get rejected many times before being published, and often what leads to a paper being published is partially luck-based. I know it’s hard to not take it personally, but it could be helpful to remind yourself that it may just be bad luck.

      1. nep*

        it required tricky compartmentalization because I had to remain motivated and optimistic when writing cover letters and submitting the applications to maintain my motivation
        This is a great point. This characterizes it well.

    2. Anonymath*

      For what it’s worth, my paper with the highest citation count was rejected by three journals before being accepted. Look over reviewer comments, make any edits that make sense and aren’t too time consuming, and get that sucker back out again.

  50. Jaid*

    Got my 25 year plaque delivered by UPS on Wednesday. I’m wondering what colors it’ll make when I chuck it into the bonfire. I mean, I work in a cardboard cubicle (borrowed ATM ‘cos of Covid) so it’s not like I can hang it up at work. And my job is a paycheck + benefits, so displaying it at home seems silly.

    At least they got the spelling of my name right on the plaque itself… The envelope wasn’t right.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’m wondering what colors [my 25 year plaque] will make when I chuck it into the bonfire.
      my job is a paycheck + benefits

      I’m not sure of the point you are making so I may be off-base, but I think a job with steady pay and benefits for 25 years speaks for itself… since 1995 we have been through at least 3 financial downturns and who knows how many rounds of layoffs, and there you still are!

      Even if you are resentful of the job in some ways… there’s something to be said for steady employment like that.

      Unless there is something unsaid like you are now facing uncertainty (more than we are in general) due to the current situation?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I understand this feeling. They sent you a plaque for your 25th anniversary? What an antiquated garbage practice. At least got back to watches or jewelry or something you can actually do something with. Plaques are obnoxious and an environmental waste and during a pandemic, yuck.

  51. Mimosa Jones*

    I have a networking question. My husband and I are both job hunting. There’s an open position at a local startup and my husband knows one of the execs. He’s proposing that he call his contact to talk about the position and mention I might be what they’re looking for. I think this isn’t the right approach. It feels to patriarchal and boundary crossing. What would be a good way for me to network with this Person?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      He should send an email to his contact saying he saw the posting and thinks it would be a great fit for you, may he give you his contact’s information? As in, he can make the initial connection between you too but you should take it from there.

    3. 867-5309*

      “Patriarchal”? It’s a family member using their network. That’s how networking works.

      I agree with the others… If they aren’t especially close, send an email. If it’s something he knows particularly well, give him a call and mention your name.

      Alternatively, you could apply and he could send a no-pressure email. Hey George, Not sure if you’re involved in hiring for this role but I just wanted to mention that my wife Mimosa Jones applied. No need to get back to me on the status but definitely let me know how you’re doing!” or something like that.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        It IS how networking works, and this is why it’s a big factor in perpetuating “good ole boys clubs” and systemic inequity. I don’t have a good answer, other than to say if you need the job and would otherwise want it, you’re ok to take it. You personally turning down the connection isn’t going to fix the system.

        1. 867-5309*

          ? I got the sense that OP was suggesting her husband asking was boundary crossing and patriarchal. I don’t think that action is either of those things.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            I think “patriarchal” comes in when the husband wants to not only make the contact but to do most of the talking. Making the CONNECTION is fine. Doing the work is not. Networking is about getting people in touch with each other, not asking questions on their behalf.

            A fine point, but I see where the OP is coming from.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Regardless of gender, it should just be an introduction and the info that you’re looking for a job doing X, and he saw they have one open.

      The candidate should be the one asking details about the job. Otherwise it’s a wierd kind of hard-sell.

      But it would be wierd for any personal contact to act like your agent, not just because he’s your husband.

  52. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I hate mandatory fun. I’m missing good work time doing a virtual scavenger hunt…. What’s the worst mandatory fun you’ve suffered? I think once we had to toss balls to each other and couldn’t stop til no one had dropped the dang ball!

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Not as bad as yours, but we had a mandatory major league baseball game. In the summer. In seats that weren’t in the shade.

    2. LPUK*

      A carribean steel band – the men all fought over the big kettle drums while the rest of us got tin cans filled with beans to shake. The guy coordinating it spent all his time coaching the more complex rhythms on the big drums and wouldn’t let us go to our rooms for the evening until the rendition was perfect – cue 90minutes plus of shaking a bean can! Do not recommend
      Oh and the sales conference where they decided on a Pop Idol theme and we had to get into teams to mime and choreograph a song from a specific band eg Abba, Rolling Stones. ‘Winning’ teams were voluntold that they would be playing live on stage at the conference dinner – There were actual tears because conference dinner dance was a BIG Deal, – some people had planned their outfits for months, lots had made agreements to drink champagne in each other’s rooms, and those who ‘won’ could not attend the dinner as they were taken off for mandatory choreography, garish hair and make-up and squashed into spandex trousers to jump around on stage. The irony was that there were more than enough outrageous extraverts in the sales team who would actually have volunteered to be on stage – in fact later in the evening they couldn’t be kept off the stage. As i was one of the ‘winners’ ( my team was mostly managerial so it was always going to get the short straw) I took revenge by throwing my bread roll at the directors’ table and hitting the sales VP in the ear! Hmm, suddenly I am realising that the irrational dislike she held for me might not gave been that irrational at all… petty, but not irrational

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Two — both major league sports, both mandatory. One was a mandatory attendance at a suite at a basketball game, which might have been okay, but it was on the Friday evening right before a major (MAJOR) holiday, so most of us hadn’t been planning on working that Friday at all (or if we were going to show up, only doing a half day). Many people had to cancel travel or family plans and instead hang out with co-workers for hours. The other was a baseball game (I hate baseball) that the head of the department insisted was mandatory for senior management — to show our support. It wasn’t mandatory for the workers. Well, it was freezing, freezing cold that night and the seats not only weren’t great but were in the coldest part of the stadium, so most workers didn’t show, or if they did, they left almost immediately. The head of the department was late, and the rest of us had to sit there in the dark and the cold in an almost empty stadium, shivering our butts off, waiting for her to show up. When she finally arrived, she took note of who was there, stayed ten minutes and left — at which point we all skedaddled. WORST team building ever.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Argh at least forced fun should include FOOD and DRINK options. Ef a virtual ANYTHING. I’m sorry that they did this to you.

    5. Girasol*

      Mandatory karaoke. Hardly anyone on our team had ever done it. I learned that even people who sing quite well by themselves can be really thrown off by hearing the sound of their own voices for the first time through a speaker. It was an hour and a half of cringy off-key humiliation.

    7. Don't think about a cat*

      I actually missed this, but at a regional meeting, a company I used to work for had employees split into teams and build boats out of random materials and test them in the resort’s pool. This was in the evening in the mountains, and it was obviously cold. Nearly half the participants ended up in the pool, freezing. The business was in an acquisition phase, so for many of these people, this was their first face-to-face with upper management and they’d bought new clothes, gotten hair done, etc. The “invitation” had mentioned a fun dress code, which many people had interpreted to mean dressy jeans or dresses, etc.

      This taught me to always, always, miss the first day of any of these meetings.

  53. squirrelishness*

    Anyone have any suggestions for jobs/careers that can be done with a Psychology BA and logistics experience? Preferably something that isn’t exclusively sitting at a desk.

    Long story short, my husband wanted to go into the trades but his parents wouldn’t let him because they said he wouldn’t be able to get a job without a college degree. He ended up getting a Psychology BA with no further plan. He’s been working as a truck dispatcher and he hates sitting behind a desk taking phone calls all day.

    He’s incredibly hard-working (worked full time during college), has had nothing but glowing reviews from his supervisors and coworkers, he picks up new technology quickly, and he’s mechanical-minded (knows everything about every train/airplane/submarine/ship in existence, fixes up old cars in his spare time).

    I’ve told him he should go back and do an apprenticeship and go into the trades, but he thinks it would be wasting his degree and wants to try at least one other career before doing that.

    1. ThatGirl*

      It really depends on what HE wants to do, honestly. A BA in Psych won’t get you too far into counseling/therapy jobs – you need a master’s to do any clinical work. But it doesn’t sound like he’s too interested in that. Maybe something in a warehouse where he can do more hands-on work with logistics?

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I would second warehouse logistics – that’s my husband’s field and he says that smart tech-savvy folks are desperately needed and apparently hard to come by.

    2. Nacho*

      In my experience, a BA in a STEM field isn’t very helpful getting a job. The sad truth is that so many people have them that it’s really only useful to get his foot in the door of jobs that require a degree just to apply, just like if he had a degree in literature or fine arts. I can’t speak to psychology in specific, but he’s definitely not going to be wasting his degree if he wants to change jobs.

    4. Not trying to be rude, just good at it*

      One of my friend’s sons pursued a similar degree in college and started a small landscaping business to keep busy during the summer. He has never used the degree, but has 20 trucks and 100 employees for his now much larger landscaping company.

      Use the degree for smarts and do what makes you happy and provide for your family.

      1. Working Mom*

        Psych BA here- I did a lot of research as an undergrad and leveraged that into my current role as a Research/Data Manager. Echoing others, most important is what he wants to do- there are great careers out there that don’t require a college degree!

    6. hillary*

      Seconding what the others said – warehouse supervisor or distribution supervisor. it’s hard work and frustrating, but you rarely have to sit still. Wrangling truckers should have given him plenty of stories about how to be a good supervisor. If he’s dispatching for a trucking company he may also like the other side of the desk better, the shipper side is much less monotonous.

      My one piece of advice – get really good boots. Good ankle support and rounded up toes make a full day on cement much less painful, especially since that job usually means crouching down regularly.

    7. SMH rn*

      If he does want a field where the degree would be a plus, several of the psych aides at my facility have psychology degrees. I’m in Canada so it might be very different here but you’re never sitting, the work is engaging and it usually pays decently

  54. ThatGirl*

    This might get lost in the shuffle, but ugh, I’m so frustrated on my husband’s behalf. He’s a counselor at a university and about a month ago everyone was promised raises across the board, which would have finally undone a paycut he took 5 years ago when they were in big budget trouble.

    And now suddenly he didn’t get the raise, and the reasoning is because he’s a 10-month-a-year employee so “not full time”. They did THAT a couple years ago to avoid paying him more as a salaried worker. It’s … complete crap. And nobody explained ANY of this ahead of time, they’re just being weasels.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      That is very frustrating. Any chance the “everyone is getting a raise!” is in writing? I don’t know that this would help, but…definitely is better than if it was only announced verbally in a meeting.

      1. ThatGirl*

        It was in writing – there were two staff-wide emails about it. And since he works a standard full-time workweek it would never have occurred to him or his boss that “full time” didn’t apply to his team.

        As a small update, he called HR and sorta yelled a little, and then apologized for yelling, and thankfully the rep he got was sympathetic and it sounds like they’re gonna try to fix it? TBD.

        I told him too that he could offer to go back to a 12-month schedule if that helped — not that he should proactively offer it, but it wasn’t his idea to do that in the first place, and he has plenty of PTO so it wouldn’t really be a problem.

    2. yala*

      WOW! That is absolute garbage, I’m so sorry!

      It’s wild that they have the money to do raises and their first thought isn’t to fix the paycuts they made before.

    3. IsItOverYet?*

      That makes no sense…many (most?) people at colleges are 10month and still considered full time. Ugh – colleges are really squeezing their already squeezed employees – at some point we’re all simply going to fall over from the amount of work and not great pay

      1. ThatGirl*

        He loves the actual work he does, and his team is pretty solid, but the administration is really lousy. There’s little to no communication, no empathy, and a lot of bungled responses. I don’t mean this to sound braggy, but he’s lucky that I have a good job with regular raises because if he were on his own he’d never be able to make it work on his pay.

  55. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

    Just received a status update on a role I interviewed for last week:

    Because of the number of qualified applicants, the process is taking a bit longer than we expected.

    I will contact you again as soon as I have any news. We expect an update by mid-next week.

    I was told that candidates selected for the second round would be invited back early this week. Definitely overthinking, but I don’t know what to make of this! I’m also in limbo for a contract role as well. It’s a great problem to have but I just want to know where I stand. ugh I’m beyond done with job hunting.

    1. CTT*

      It means exactly what it says. The interview process is taking longer than they thought and you’ll hear back from them later than they initially said.

    2. Okumura Haru*

      Take it at face value. They’re swamped, and they want to make sure they’re doing everything correctly.

      I’m so sorry about the frustration. Job hunting is the worst, even in the best of times.

      Hoping for good news for you soon!

    4. ArtsNerd*

      This is actually a good sign about their hiring process. Few employers bother to keep candidates updated like this. Once I got a rejection 4 months after I sent my application into the void with no response other than an automated “we received this.” Was pretty surprised they bothered to actively reject me at that point.

      1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

        You are so right! I’m actually pretty grateful they followed-up just to say this much. Two days ago I told my partner that I hadn’t heard back and was suspecting that I might not move forward. He pointed out that this company has been pretty responsive thus far (one of the folks I interviewed with even responded to my thank you note!), it’s likely taking them longer to follow-up, and that they’d probably reach out to let me know either way. And then, BAM! I recieved this email today.

        Taking note of this and all the replies encouraging me to accept the remark at face value. Will wait and see what happens next week.

      2. Viette*

        That was my immediate thought! I highly doubt they’re playing some complex long game and trying to trick their candidates, and I’m honestly impressed that they have the presence of mind and the compassion to say, “whoops, this is taking longer than we thought, let’s let people know.”

    5. Policy Wonk*

      They probably have a policy similar to ours where if you interview one qualified applicant you interview them all, to be fair. Particularly right now, with a lot of people looking for work, that means a lot of applicants. Depending on the level of the job, a high percentage could be considered qualified, meaning lots of interviews.

  56. FriendshelpingFriends*

    A friend of mine needs some help so I came here to see if anyone had any advice. In 2016 she had filed a lawsuit against her former employer of which ended up in a settlement between the two. As part of her settlement agreement she had to agree that she would never apply to the company again. On Wednesday her and her coworkers were informed that the company was being acquired by her former employer. She is wondering whether or not she should approach HR regarding the settlement agreement?

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      Yes, she should talk to your lawyer first. That type of language about not applying is very standard language. And in this situation, your friend did not apply, but by weird happenstance will end up working for the company again anyway. She needs to talk to her lawyer so that she is prepared for what may happen and what her options are when the sale goes through.

      The way I see it options would be:
      1) Do nothing as she did not violate the agreement and wait to see if the new employer raises the issue.
      2) If she does not want to work for the new parent company, proactively address the issue once the sale goes through (not until then) and negotiate a separation package.
      3) Even is she wants to stay with the new parent company, there could be benefits in proactively addressing the situation once the sale goes through. For example, when companies are acquired, there are often layoffs. By bringing this up proactively, it might make the company think twice prior to eliminating her role.

  57. Spaceball One*

    Any tips or guidance on (1) giving yourself credit for your accomplishments when you’re in a job interview, and (2) showing more enthusiasm in an interview without going overboard?

    Details: I have worked at my workplace for a long time and although I really do enjoy my role and my team, I have become more interested in moving to a different team in the same department because over time my current role has started to shrink (due to things outside my team’s control – budgets, contract parameters, etc.). Recently a slot opened on the other team and I was selected for an interview. Ultimately, I didn’t get the job, but the hiring manager and their deputy invited me to talk to them to get feedback in case I want to apply in the future. I spoke to both of them and they were very kind and had the same feedback: (1) I was too modest and even when they tried to bait me and draw out accomplishments they KNEW were there, I didn’t take the bait, and (2) my answers were a bit short. In other words I really sold myself short, to the point that they were really surprised.

    I brought up in our feedback discussion that since we all work together all the time, I was afraid to come across as taking credit for my role in projects when they would know it was a team effort, and they were understanding about that but basically said, We know you do great work, so *your job interview* is the time to sell it! And I can see that they are right.

    I think underlying both these issues — my difficulty in seeing my own accomplishments, and my shorter answers and (no one said this, but I feel it is true) sort of flat affect — are due to me being a sort of “keep my head down, work my butt off, keep things moving,” introvert personality. And I feel like this is a mix of needing to shift my mentality and how I think of myself and my work, plus needing more practice at interviewing, coming across as enthusiastic but not cuckoo, or calm but not flat.

    Any thoughts on how to make the most of this feedback? I’m not sure where to start!

    1. RagingADHD*

      As a thought exercise, you could consider how you would recommend someone else whose work you know well, you like, and think really highly of, for a job that would be a perfect fit and great opportunity for them. Really go through their work history, or their contribution to a real-life project, and consider how you would describe their skills and accomplishments when giving a reference for them.

      Does that change your energy and enthusiasm at all? Can you bring that back to your own accomplishments (even though it feels fake)?

    2. Ron McDon*

      I think you should approach interviews as if the people interviewing you don’t know you, have no idea of your role etc, so you need to really sell yourself, even if you’ve worked with them for years.

      Day to day most of us are used to downplaying our efforts and achievements so we don’t look ‘braggy’, but an interview is the one time you really have to talk yourself up!

      Interviewers will know that you weren’t the one person responsible for the success of a project, but if you wanted to be clear that you’re not taking all the credit you could say how fortunate you were to be part of a strong team etc.

      I think as RagingADHD suggests, it might be good to pretend your achievements are those of your best friend – how would you talk about them if you were giving her a reference and helping her get a job? That’s the sort of confidence and enthusiasm you need to project about your own work.

      Practice makes perfect, in this situation.

      Good luck!

  58. Clare*

    If you get referred for a job by someone you know through your place of worship and the recruiter asks how you know your reference, is it okay to say church/synagogue/mosque? Mentioning religion in the first intro interview felt awkward, but also that’s how I met the person who referred me.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Personally I don’t think it’s that bad, but if you feel uncomfortable, you can always just say you’ve been acquainted for a long time without specifying how.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Yes, of course it’s fine. If you have concerns about religious discrimination and want to avoid disclosing which religion you’re affiliated with for your own protection, you could say “a community group” or that you met through mutual friends.

      But merely mentioning that you have a religion or attend worship is not injecting it into the workplace in any kind of inappropriate way. No more than mentioning your spouse or kids is injecting inappropriate references to sex.

      1. lemon*

        I also like “community group” or “community organization” or some language like that.

        I do this for folks that I met through a housing co-op– most people hear that and think “hippie commune full of sex and drugs” (which is so far from the truth)– so I’d just say we met through a “volunteer organization.” No one has ever asked a follow-up about what exactly the organization is.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      I think they are mostly looking to know whether they are a professional or personal contact. The “we have common interests” is fine, but also “through church” is fine (don’t get into what church) — the notion that a lot of people participate in a religion is so common that it would be a strange employer who made anything of it.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wouldn’t think so much about it. It’s a perfectly reasonable regular place to meet someone. It’s not like you had to find a way to tell them they you met them through your local kink social group ;) :) [I say this because that’s the one we get so frequently around here, so it’s refreshing that you’re asking about church instead, lol.]

      I agree a good word to interchange with church or religious affiliations is to use the word “community group” or “community center”, community encompasses a lot of stuff without details.

  59. Rosy Glasses*

    I’m wrapping up my first week of performance reviews (first time manager) and have gotten quite a bit of disappointment from the team due to very low or no wage increase. Our business was hit pretty hard with COVID and we had to lay off some folks for the first time in our 12 year history.

    On the surface it feels like I am preparing folks well by explaining that while we would like to be able to do at least a cost of living increase, we financially are unable to due to COVID-19 and shut-downs. Is there something else I should be doing to try and explain or ease the disappointment? Am I out of line for wondering why folks are upset when I’m personally thankful to just have a job (understanding the power dynamic of our positions)?

    1. Always Late to the Party*

      Are they having to work more/harder to cover for the laid off staff? That may be contributing to their disappointment if it’s the case.

      1. RosyGlasses*

        Thanks for replying! No – the roles have not increased in burden – other than several are being offered opportunities to expand their roles if they would like to be considered for future promotions.

        1. Workerbee*

          Take on more work now for little to no salary increase, for the nebulous future opportunity consideration with no guarantee of opportunity nor consideration? —at least, that’s how it reads to me. That might add to the disgruntlement.

          1. Rosy Glasses*

            I’m not sure where the idea that more work is being taken on based on my reply above – but no, roles are not increasing. I’m not sure of any company that would give a guarantee of future promotion, but the goals and opportunities being given to add to their skillset and place them in consideration when those roles are available. Thank for replying!

    2. CatCat*

      Well, is there anything else you can offer them other than a wage increase? Like training opportunities in areas they want to grow, or some extra PTO? That might ease some disappointment and aid in retention. (I mean, if people have told you they are disappointed in their pay, that’s a sign to you that you may not be able to retain them as they may find opportunities elsewhere to get paid what they want. Do you want to be able to retain them?)

      1. Rosy Glasses*

        Training opportunities for sure – goal setting was a newer part of the review process this year to help support employees that are looking to move into other departments or wanting to expand their knowledge. Obviously it would be great to pay them more – but the business simply doesn’t have the revenue to support that with the impact from COVID this year.

    3. Theory of Eeveelution*

      You are out of line, yes. Life continues to exist outside of a business’s money troubles. Rent goes up, life necessities have been price gouged, etc. Life for your employees is very likely getting more and more difficult. They have every right to be disappointed.

  60. Qwertyuiop*

    This is my third work place where you’re supposed to talk and socialize while working. I can’t do that. I work with a lot of data and technical processes, so if I’m off by one number, it could mean a different system in a different state, etc.

    I don’t want to be mute or unresponsive either, so I try to chime in when I can, but my coworkers still make comments like “Qwerty’s so quiet.”

    My boss doesn’t say anything, but sometimes doesn’t seem to like it. I try to check in with him and let him know what I’m working on, but I’m at a loss.

    Is there anything else that I should be doing? It’s frustrating and annoying.

    1. Amtelope*

      Can you wear headphones? Even just noise-cancelling headphones, if you don’t like music while you work? That’s a pretty well-understood symbol for “don’t talk to me right now.”

      It may also help to make a deliberate effort to join in the conversation when you do take breaks. Take off the headphones, get a cup of coffee, engage for a few minutes, and then put headphones on and go back to work.

    2. BigSigh*

      Hopefully they’ll just get used to you, but it sounds like you’ve done all you can. You can’t join in more and have correct data, end of story.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Do you take breaks at all? Maybe you can socialize on short breaks and then say something like “excuse me, I have to get back to this.”

    4. sarah grace*

      When they say you’re quiet … why don’t you tell them why? “Oh Qwerty’s so quiet!” “I know, I would love to chat! But I can’t get distracted while working with these numbers. Find me when you grab coffee next, though!” Rational humans get it, and your boss doesn’t seem worried, so I certainly wouldn’t worry.

      1. Qwertyuiop*

        I do sometimes- I’ll say what I’m doing or working on. Other times, they’re quiet and if I leave the room, then they start talking. (I don’t mind if they talk- it’s weird that they do this or feel like they have to.)

        1. Ron McDon*

          I think it would be worth having a big picture convo with them all – “I’m feeling a bit awkward because I can’t join in with the office chat as much as I’d like due to *reasons*. But I don’t want you all to feel that you have to be quiet and can’t talk to each other! I’ll join in if I’m working on something that doesn’t require as much concentration, but please don’t feel I’m ignoring you or annoyed, I just can’t do my job and join in the chatting. Thanks for understanding”.

          I’ve had to have this exact convo with someone I work with, who is a Chatty McChatterson and gets anxious that she’s upset me if I can’t chat. Unfortunately I’ve had to have this convo with her more than once, hopefully you can do a ‘one and done’!

  61. Teapot Librarian*

    I have an employee who sometimes acts like he is trying to supervise me, instead of the other way around. Separately, but related, he pushes back on nearly every decision or change I make. He is in the administrative assistant type role in the office; I am the director. This situation arose again yesterday. Employee sent a series of emails asking me to justify why I did something “not according to procedure” while we were primarily working from home. I spent some time yesterday rereading the post “How to tell an employee to stay in their lane” trying to figure out how best to respond, but that’s not directly on point to this situation.
    I did follow up with the employee yesterday to ask why this particular situation was important to him and his response was a list of things I’ve done that he thinks are wrong. (He is a “everything must be exactly equal for it to be fair” person, and his examples are where I’ve used my judgment to provide additional assistance to people.) On the one hand, I’m glad he’s committed to our office’s mission. On the other hand, it’s not his job to second-guess and criticize my job performance.
    Any advice on how to respond? Both in general if he asks me to justify how I do my work, and specifically to his allegations in this most recent conversation?

    1. Always Late to the Party*

      “On the other hand, it’s not his job to second-guess and criticize my job performance.”

      Have you communicated that to him? He may not realize that his behavior is inappropriate, especially if he is earlier in his career.

      I think having a direct conversation saying you appreciate his commitment to the mission, but inevitably there will be exceptions and as the director you have the authority to make that call. You answer to your boss (or board, etc. as the case may be) and feel confident that you could justify your decisions to *them* if needed, but not to him. It’s not a good use of organizational resources (his time and your time) to have him second-guessing your decisions and for you to justify to him every time you do something he perceives as “wrong.” Also, as a junior person, he may not always be aware of all of the factors going into a decision, and it may not always be appropriate to share these with him.

      Then if he does it again, cut it off in the moment. If it continues treat it as a performance issue. Per Alison’s usual advice, do all of this as warmly and calmly as possible.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        I think part of my question is HOW to tell him it’s not his job to worry about how I do my job. That is, how do I do/say it warmly and calmly? He is going to push back and say that I am being careless with our office’s tools and therefore it is his job.

        1. Temperance*

          Do you have to be warm with him?

          I think that if you’re too nice about it, he won’t get the very clear message that this isn’t his concern and he shouldn’t be telling you how to do your job.

        3. PollyQ*

          Ultimately, are you going to keep him in this role if he keeps doing this? I would guess that “no” is the answer there. Assuming that’s the case, then you need to make it clear to him that his challenges to you are putting his future employment at risk. “Warm” is nice, when possible, but “clear” is far more important.

          If he pushes back, then your response should be something like, “Fergus, it sounds like you’re still not understanding. It’s my job to set strategies/allocate resources/etc. and your job to X/Y/Z. Is this a role you can be comfortable with?”

        4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          He is going to push back and say that I am being careless with our office’s tools and therefore it is his job.

          If you are sure you are in the right (which I expect you are!) invite him to escalate it if he still feels unsatisfied with the answer and let him show himself up in front of your boss – assuming you and your boss are in agreement and on good terms about most things already.

        5. Library Manager*

          Two things.
          1. what happens if you just do not respond to him?
          He expresses his opinion.
          silence.
          He puts his opinion in an email.
          silence.
          2. Thank you for your concern. (then silence)
          3.” ask why this particular situation was important to him and his response was a list of things I’ve done that he thinks are wrong.” This actually made me laugh.- my response would be. Thank you for sharing. I have reviewed your concerns. I do not agree with them. My position is one where these issues are under my purview. They are not your concern. Now lets review your responsibilities. (pushback) This is not a discussion. If you continue to pushback, this would be an actionable item on your performance review.

          1. Teapot Librarian*

            I’ve tried the not responding option. He just sends another email. And then six months later sends an email complaining that I never responded. Then he brings it up at a staff meeting. Or he emails my boss. Or (this one happened) I tell him he can feel free to escalate it to my boss, and he responds that it isn’t his job to escalate it, and when am I going to schedule a meeting for him and me and my boss. He’s EXHAUSTING.

            1. fhgwhgads*

              It might be time for one of those this is what your job does and does not entail; in order to stay in this role, I’ll need you to stop xyz/start abc. Is that something you can commit to doing? type convos.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      “I’m glad you’re committed to our office’s mission and that fairness and equity are among your top concerns. But when it comes to some of my decisions as director, I’ve used my judgment in situations where that’s appropriate. There are going to be times where I may choose to go in a direction that seems unusual or out of the ordinary to you, but in those times I expect you to trust that I know what I’m doing and am making choices that I believe are beneficial to our organization and mission.”

      Maybe that’s heavy-handed. But it sounds like you need a heavy hand!

    3. Temperance*

      Frankly, I think you need to set aside that you’re glad he supports the mission; he’s undermining your authority. Talk to his direct supervisor, if you’re not it, and make it very clear that there is a hierarchy and he’s not at the top of it.

        1. PollyQ*

          I wouldn’t leap to blaming yourself. Very few employees in an admin asst role would take it upon themselves to correct a director who’s also their boss.

        2. MMB*

          I would probably say, “As the director it’s my job to make judgement calls, based on the unique factors of each situation – factors that you may or may not be aware of. Please understand that I give careful thought to each and every decision and will let you know when or if your help is ever required during that process. ”

          I might even add that questioning my decisions is an inappropriate use of time. But I’m a little grumpy today.

        3. tangerineRose*

          Actually, I think he’s the one who’s not good at this – most people have enough sense not to badger their boss like this.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I just wouldn’t respond to any of these requests asking you to justify why you went outside of the procedure (assuming he was causing trouble rather than genuinely being curious).

      His ‘allegations’ – do they have any merit (from his perspective) or are they just vexatious nitpicking as I suspect?

      Is he trying to redirect attention away from his own performance possibly?

      Ultimately my gut feeling is you will end up firing this person (why are you being so accommodating already?)

      I wouldn’t ‘address’ any of his concerns beyond a bland general response and perhaps if you feel generous something like “what specifically concerns you about that?” if you feel that on the off-chance some of his concerns may be genuine but badly communicated.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        I would love to fire this person, but…government. And I really am objectively not a strong manager, so getting through all the steps necessary for firing is difficult. Also my boss isn’t fantastic, so I can’t count on her to support me.

        1. Library Manager*

          I really get you… government. I was in a similar situation. In terms of firing. I fired someone in a place that no one remembered anyone ever getting fired!
          The things I asked myself. How long will I be in this position? (in my case I knew that I was staying) Do I dread every interaction with this person? Can this person be moved to another position more suited to their own skill set? Is this person meeting the expectations of the position?
          Document. Document like it is a part time job.
          Have many unpleasant meetings. Remember there is someone out there who is dying to have this job.

          “objectively not a strong manager” not sure what that means.
          Are you not able to have difficult conversations?
          Are you a people pleaser and hate saying no?
          Are you petty and unfair?
          Do you play favorites?
          Are your assignments clear and your deadlines reasonable?
          Are you supporting the goals of your program?
          Do you pitch in when things are in the weeds?
          Do you cover your staff when needed?
          Are you sarcastic and mean?
          Do you have high expectations of others and not yourself?
          Do you hide from your staff?
          Do you show up where you are supposed to be?
          To you recognize excellence?
          Do you coach and expect improvement?
          Do you support professional development?

        2. Always Late to the Party*

          I think you should also cut yourself a little slack. You sound really down on yourself and this is a tricky situation and these are not easy times. Ultimately, it sounds like this guy is being insubordinate and you need to address is firmly and clearly. even if it’s contrary to what you’ve done in the past. If you see this, I hope you have a nice weekend and best of luck. :)

    5. Bad Hare Day*

      This sounds like insubordination to me. Have a video call with him. “Fergus, I’ve noticed a pattern where you push back on nearly all of my decisions. Recent examples of this are A, B, C. As a Director I have years of experience and additional information which you are not privy to. Your job is to execute (tasks). I do not have the time to explain every decision I make to you, nor are you entitled to an explanation. It is the job of my supervisor to hold me accountable for my performance, not your job. In fact, at this point it has reached insubordination. Consider this a verbal warning. The next time it happens, it will be a written warning.” Do not let him interrupt you or argue with you. If he tries to (he will), calmly state, “This is not up for debate. I am telling you that your behavior is unacceptable/unprofessional.” Follow up with an email recapping the conversation, cc’ HR and your supervisor. Follow through with your threat of a written warning if he continues to repeat.

      I had to have several of these conversations with an employee who had a similar problem. Our write-up form (which we also filled out for verbal warnings) had both a line for a description of the issue, examples, and resolution, which was helpful in guiding the conversation. So, it would be written up like this: Issue: Fergus has a pattern of unexcused lateness. Example: On Sept 21, 2020, Fergus arrived at the office at 10:27am. Abigail (that’s you, his manager) reminded Fergus that the work day starts at 9:30am, and that she expects a call, text, or email before then if he’s going to be late. Fergus apologized and said he slept through his alarm. On Sept 23, Fergus arrived at work at 9:53am without prior communication to Abigail. Resolution: Fergus will be at his desk at or before 9:30am. If he is running late or taking a sick day, he will email Abigail before 9:30am to let her know what time he expects to be in.”

      1. Barb*

        Completely agree. Everything you’re doing from this point forward is documentation in preparation of firing him.

    6. pancakes*

      I think it was a bit of a misstep to ask why it was important to him and would recommend not doing that again. It doesn’t matter why he thinks it important to try to turn the tables on you or how he justifies doing so to himself — it’s not his role.

    7. Barb*

      It’s not his job to interrogate his boss and it’s out of line. You have to nip this in the bud. Focus on being calm and firm; do not be warm, since that undermines the seriousness of the issue. You should also be up front that if this continues, it’s a fireable offense. It absolutely is. Can you imagine talking to your own boss this way?

      As others have suggested, loop your boss in first, so they aren’t surprised when this guy goes over your head.

  62. Elle*

    Curious as to how others are handling the decided rift between the political parties right now, specifically at work. My preference is to leave it out of the workplace completely, but unfortunately for me, I am working for a company that is owned by an ardent Trump supporter, and I have quite a few co-workers who are also very vocal about it. Not sure if anyone else feels the same as I do, although I’m assuming there must be. I’m handling myself pretty well so far, as in avoiding any conversation on the topic (only because I know myself and it wouldn’t end well for me), and trying to not to shoot daggers at the Trump paraphernalia that’s peppered throughout our workspace. Would love to hear if anyone’s had any luck dealing with anything similar! Also, apologies if this type of question/discussion should be avoided here, I completely understand if it needs to be removed.

    1. SarahKay*

      No suggestions, just lots of sympathy. With Brexit looming very large here in the UK, I’m actually really glad to be WFH.
      On the whole it didn’t get discussed a *lot* at work (and we’re far more evenly split than it sounds like your workplace is) but it was often enough that I got to the point of, wherever possible, just politely extracting myself from the chat and heading back to my desk to work if some of the more vocal supporters joined a tea-break chat.

  63. c_g2*

    I’m transferring to university for winter quarter from a local college — if I’m acceppted, I intend to major in operations & supply chain management. I’m hoping to apply to internships for the summer — what advice do you have? I don’t have any specific questions in mind. Just would like the perspectives of those who’ve gone through the process recently

  64. LBAI*

    Well, I made a huge decision, and accepted a voluntary severance package. Its both freeing and terrifying all at the same time, because I’ve not been on the job market for 16 years. Do y’all have any advice on what to do before I actually leave to put me in the best position to find a job? I expect it will take about 6 months to find one, so what should I be doing now to prepare?

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Do you have access to your annual reviews? Those can come in handy to remind you of accomplishments/responsibilities/projects. It’s amazing how quickly you can forget what you did just a couple of years ago – or is that just me? Also, reach out to folks you might want to use as references to let them know you are leaving and how to keep in touch.

    4. Ali G*

      If you can, I found it incredible helpful to take some time away from working to really figure out what I wanted to do next. I didn’t want to end up in the same position I found myself in (which led to the severance), so I completely detached for a while, did some soul searching and really made myself focus on what I wanted out of my next job, not just getting the next job.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      Alison’s 2016 post on this topic (https://www.askamanager.org/2016/09/what-you-need-to-do-before-you-quit-your-job.html) is more geared toward getting the most out of your job’s benefits before leaving (and I would definitely read the comments section). That said, it might give you some ideas of what kind of work-related documents you should make copies of (i.e., performance reviews, leave/earning statements, W2 forms, kudos emails with the emailer’s contact information, etc.) before your last day at work.

  65. Amtelope*

    I have a direct report who will not let anything go. When anyone doesn’t agree with her, she will argue them into the ground. I need her to accept that if she makes an edit suggestion, and her coworker doesn’t agree the edit is needed, she has to let it go. I need her to accept that clients get to have things their way because they are clients (unless what they want is unethical or impossible, but this is stuff like “the client insists on different wording that sounds awkward.” That is frustrating! But we’re doing to do it their way, because they pay the bills.)

    And, just for me, I need her to stop trying to die on every hill, because it is exhausting. Most of the time, I need her to accept my first “no, we’re doing it this way” without a lengthy email thread in which she explains why she’s right and that she can’t in good conscience fail to express her point of view. (Again, these are not ethical issues or critical flaws.) Any suggestions for coaching someone to reduce the amount of pushing back they’re doing by, like, … 75%?

      1. Annony*

        Yep. She probably thinks she is doing really well and showing initiative. You need to make it clear that at best she is wasting time and and worst she is alienating clients. You might need to make it clear that if she does not stop, she is putting her job at risk because you can’t afford to lose clients because she dislikes their word choices.

        1. SarahKay*

          And be prepared with a good phrase (and possibly a firm tone of voice) to stop her trying to argue you into the ground when you tell her to stop arguing everything into the ground

    3. RagingADHD*

      I would talk to her about not wasting time and energy on low-value details. She’s lacking a sense of proportion and does not have her priorities straight.

      She needs a clearer picture on how to use her time and prioritize her work.

    4. Workerbee*

      The contents of your first paragraph read like excellent statements to make to your employee already. You are being direct, you offer at least one reason why, and at the end of the day, she needs to accept it and do it without pushing back and without needing more reasons why. If she can do that, she has a future with your org. If not, then this is not a good fit for her.

      None of the above has to mean that you agree with the clients, but that’s not the scope, so that is, alas, irrelevant.

  66. BigSigh*

    I’m feeling sad right now. My promised promotion and raise never materialized (which I understood based on the state of the world). I was also turned down for a raise based on my currently expanded duties. Then four new roles in my department were created and I thought, “Oh, I could do any of these because I have experience in them all!” But the actual interview made it clear they’d consider these a lateral move for me and I’d still get no pay bump, despite the step up in responsibilities.

    They manage to hire new senior directors and pay $50k bonuses to higher tier executives, but my 2% cost of living raise isn’t possible? I don’t understand how it’s possible to pay $1500 in rent and pay down my $100k student loans…

    1. WellRed*

      I’m so sorry. This sucks. Unfortunately, your company has made its priorities clear and you don’t figure into that. As for the $100k in student loans and $1500 in rent? Time to take a hard look at your own priorities. Get a roommate? A second job?

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        On the student loans, have you looked into income based repayment plans? I was nearly suicidal wondering how I was going to pay mine, but they are manageable now. Have a look on the student aid website and see if anything applies to you.

  67. Volunteering on Resume*

    I’ve been actively looking for a new job since my position was eliminated in December.

    To make myself a more competitive candidate, I have volunteered with several nonprofits and taken several online classes. The issue is that I previously worked in health and human service nonprofits and am working to position myself into a new field but most of my recent work and volunteer experience is with nonprofits.

    So, how do I position my resume and cover letter to clearly indicate that I have enjoyed my time with nonprofits but am looking to move in a new direction? Should I structure my resume to focus more on accomplishments than workplaces? Should I use the term “career switcher” in my cover letter?

    Please share with me any thoughts you have on how best to position myself for a professional transition.

    1. Me*

      Personally I wouldn’t mention it at all. It would be pretty obvious due to the jobs your applying to. I’d bring it up in the interview as part of a why do you want to work here answer perhaps.

      If you want to talk about why you are looking forward to switching fields that’s fine. But just going from nonprofit to corporate work isn’t a big deal. The types of jobs don’t necessarily differ. Focus on what you are changing which from your writing I take to mean career as in you used to make widgets but now you want to make teapots.

      Your resume should always focus on accomplishments. I’m not sure what you mean by switching the focus from workplace to accomplishments.

      1. Volunteering on Resume*

        Thanks for your comment!

        With regards to your statements, please see my expanded information below.

        1. In many of the interviews I’ve had since the beginning of the year, prospective employers have mentioned their concerns about my nonprofit-based work history. This concerns me because of how competitive the job market is with hundreds of applicants applying for every vacancy. I’ve leaned into transferrable skills and ongoing education to no avail.

        2. The transferrable skills angle is more along the lines of mission-oriented coffee mugs to profit-drive coffee mugs. The mugs and all the work in creating them is the same but the goals and the tracking of those goals is different.

        3. With resume types, I was making a veiled reference to using more of a hybrid chronological-functional resume than a standard chronological resume. This means the accomplishments would have more space and attention than the employers/volunteer opportunities where I acquired them.

    2. Annony*

      I don’t think you need to use the words “career switcher” specifically, but I would make it clear why you are looking to leave the non-profit world. Talk about how the non-profit job has given you skills and why you are excited to apply those skills at this company rather than a non-profit.

    3. BEE*

      I’m in a similar boat myself at the moment. I’m using a variant of:

      “While I’ve been excited to keep my skills in XYZ fresh through my volunteer contributions in *nonprofit*, I am seeking a role in which I can commit to *other sector* as this is where my education/skills/passion lie and my experience allows me to flourish”

      Put your volunteer experience at the end of your resume, and your most recent work relevant to the roles you want to secure at the beginning. This is what I’ve been doing and I’m getting to interviews.

    4. Wordybird*

      I recently transitioned from a faith-based non-profit position to a professional education position at a for-profit.

      I briefly mentioned looking to move into something more long-term with better work-life balance but didn’t specifically reference anything else as they could see from my resume that I had worked & volunteered with several non-profits over the last few years. My interviewer mentioned other things from my resume — learning to use Premiere Pro during the pandemic for my former job & this field being interesting to me because of a personal fact I shared — but didn’t mention and wasn’t bothered by my move from non-profit to for-profit or that I didn’t have any experience in this field or with their project management software. They were much more concerned that I had the right administration, communications, and project management skills than where I had acquired them.

      I revamped my cover letter & resume to Alison’s specifications earlier this summer & had a job offer in August.

      Good luck!

  68. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    Can anyone offer advice about being onboarded for a new job remotely?

    I’m starting as a conversation analyst at a global financial firm next Monday. Although I have worked remotely in the past, this will be the first time starting off that way, and I’m a little nervous since I’m also new to the industry as well. Supposedly my equipment will be showing up next week, and I’m planning on setting it all up as soon as I get it, but other than that, what can I do to get off on the right foot? This will be the best paying job I’ve ever had, and as it’s a contract-to-hire position I feel like I need to get up to speed and make a great impression as quickly as I can.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Ask if there’s anything you can research or gain knowledge about ahead of time in order to “hit the ground running”.

      If you already know what technologies you will be working with as part of the role, review your knowledge of those and anything specific that relates to your role. (Is a ‘conversation analyst’ what I think it is, with building chatbots and stuff like that? Sentiment and voice analysis? Other AI stuff?) Go over recent developments in the technology, look for anything relevant in the news recently concerning this company related to your area of work.

      Working remotely is new to me as well, but we have recruited new people since then and the onboarding process wasn’t that different than it would have been in the office actually.

      Depending on how your onboarding is set up, I guess it may be “wall to wall” meetings with X and Y person from A and B department to talk you through their area of the company and things like that… or more open ended. I’d expect to work with your manager quite closely in the first 1-2 weeks. If it isn’t quite “wall-to-wall” you could ask to have access to the business systems (source code etc? if I have correctly understood what a conversation analyst does) to have an open-ended “look round” to get a sense of what exists already etc.

      It isn’t a specific “remote onboarding” thing but I would urge you to get a “big picture”, how-things-fit-together view of everything you are introduced to, even if it means asking more questions than you would expect (most people love to talk and be asked questions about their area of expertise!). I’ve found I’ve suffered a couple of years down the line in jobs where I didn’t develop that “big picture” early on. Also “big picture” is changeable. It could be strategic stuff, overview of how everything fits together or it could be something more like “here are the main servers we work with” (when you would be initially focusing on server X).

      I say this because the longer you are in a company, the harder it is to admit you don’t have that “big picture” mental map.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        Thank you so much for pointing out that other than my not being physically present, the onboarding process might not be that far off from how they normally do things. I’ve been treating it like this completely different, heretofore unknown process, so that helps me frame it. I keep getting all in my head that they’re going to expect me to figure it out on my own, which of course wasn’t indicated at all during the interview process.

        In my case a conversion analyst is someone who works with new or existing clients to convert them to a new product or service. The analysis comes with determining their needs and then working with a dev team to make something that works for the customer. I believer there is also reporting and other follow-up duties after launch to make sure performance goals are being met.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          Ah! I read it as “conversation” analyst (damned autocorrect comes through at the worst times) rather than “conversion”. I think I know what it is that you do, then, in general terms… to be handed leads and convince them to buy something!

          In that case, ignore any references about ‘technology’ etc except as far as it might apply to you, but I think even so, there are probably industry ‘best practices’ and stuff like that which you could study up on. And you can certainly ask about any internal systems that you could get “read only” access to, to get an idea of the sort of thing you will be working with.

          (A couple of little letters can make all the difference! haha.)

          1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

            OMG, I *just* noticed autocorrect changed it to “conversation in my OP. D’oh!

    2. Wordybird*

      I recently remotely onboarded, and it wasn’t all that different from how I assume they onboard in-person. Although everyone works remotely at the moment because of COVID, most of the workforce will move back to working in-person sometime next year. I will remain permanently remote.

      I was sent my equipment & supplies the week before. I signed up for direct deposit through their vendor that week as well as read through the employee handbook and a few other documents I was sent ahead of time. My supervisor was more focused on keeping me “need-to-know” so besides knowing I had a Zoom meeting scheduled for first thing my first day, I really had no idea what else I was doing that day or whom I was meeting.

      We had an almost day-long Zoom meeting the first day for training, and then I was assigned my first project and told to get to work. I check in with my supervisor, via chat, a few times a day as I have questions, and otherwise I just do my own thing. There is A LOT (which I am very grateful for!) of documentation and samples for me to use as I work and learn the job/field but I take my own notes, too, and have compiled them into a “cheat sheet” that’s faster than going through all the intra-company documents.

      Besides that, I’m letting the rest of the company “take the lead” when it comes to culture, etc. and I’m just observing their behaviors and norms before I attempt to jump in. I am a people pleaser so it’s hard on me to be the new person but this company, while everyone is nice enough, is not overly chatty or share-y. It’s definitely possible that they are all chatting with each other and just not me but I get the sense that the general vibe is more work-focused than person-focused. This is a big shift for me coming from a faith-based non-profit but I am leaning into it rather than trying to insert myself or what I want into a company that I just started at and doesn’t seem to view being friends or knowing one another as all that important.

      I will be interested to see what happens or changes, if anything, once most people are back in the office (and I’m not) but I don’t know how to prepare for that.

  69. LQ*

    Folks who have worked closely with senior/exec level folks with 3-4 levels below them before individual contributors.

    Are they always a flavor of ruthless jerk? I feel like I’m seeing two kinds.

    One is good at the actual work but not always good to the humans. (This flavor seeing mostly the bad comes out with direct reports so senior managers/director level folks, whereas individual contributors mostly think these folks are great.) There is a kind of success in these places, but being that direct report who gets the brunt of the bad behavior is brutal.

    One is exceedingly good at being nice to people and is “well loved” but desperately incompetent, loses funding, puts the wrong people in the wrong jobs, never pushes people except those who are driven by success who push themselves, as a lot of little feifdoms under them some with competent senior managers and well run subdivisions and some with terrors who just churn through people. Some of these places can be really good spots to be individual contributors but some are horror shows.

    But I think both of these kinds of folks are a flavor of jerk. But do you have to be some kind of jerk to get elevated to that level?

    1. Sherm*

      At my organization, no. I work with two higher ups. One of them is one of the most amazing people I have ever met (in a good way!) The other one once thought I made a huge mistake, and he was unbelievably understanding even before I showed I hadn’t actually made that mistake. A very competent, even-keel guy. At your place, I wonder what’s going on even higher up than those jerks. Is it noticed that the incompetent one is causing messes?

      1. LQ*

        The folks I work with will totally forgive some giant mistakes, but will also sometimes be raving assholes about minor ones. The higher up than these folks is the political positions that churn and that’s a part of this. Is this something where it’s true in weird political climates. I’ve not had experience out of this sector at this kind of level. A little bit I wonder if 1 – I’m learning terrifyingly bad habits and 2 – I’d be able to dance through other work in my sleep because I’ve dealt with this.

      2. RagingADHD*

        No, you don’t have to be a jerk but you do have to be confident in your own decisions, and be okay with the fact that not everyone will agree with you or like you.

        Some people get to that headspace by holding strong principles and maintaining integrity Others get there by being jerks.

    2. LPUK*

      Well you don’t have to but it definitely helps! They do say there is a higher than average proportion of Psychopaths in senior management because some of the ‘leadership behaviours’ people use to select senior leadership – degree of ruthlessness, clear focus, confidence in their own ability, competitiveness etc are also exemplar behaviours in psychopathy. take that comforting thought with you. AS for the other type I have a wonderful book titled ‘ Why do some many incompetent men become leaders?’ which mainly concludes that recruiters confuse confidence with competence and so people who are too stupid to realise they may be fallible get promoted over people who are very competent but allow room for self-analysis and improvement

    3. Temperance*

      Honestly, no. I work in BigLaw and I work with our managing partner pretty often, and he’s not a jerk. Neither is our former MP.

    4. Dissatisfied*

      I haven’t worked a ton with executive-level people myself, but perhaps part of it is that it’s actually really hard to be a good senior manager. It’s tricky to maintain the balance between setting high expectations and holding people accountable while also being kind and keeping employees motivated. I imagine most people would struggle, so it doesn’t surprise me that a lot of senior managers don’t strike that balance well.

      I wouldn’t be shocked if many of those jerk senior managers are pretty normal in how they treat people in their personal lives.

      1. LQ*

        This is kind of what I keep thinking. I know that nearly everyone I work with, especially at lower levels, thinks that most of the folks I’m talking about and thinking about are really excellent and not a jerk and maybe I’m just overly sensitive. But that balance and then when people slide to one side or the other it has a lot of cascading impacts. Some of it gets written of as just oh well stuff happens.

        Lost funding because that exec level person didn’t push back hard enough to get the things that needed to be done completed, totally been done successfully every other year, now not able to be done, well that person put in a lot more “developmental” activities that took away time from the work. People didn’t connect that to jobs lost in another area because they can’t see that that’s how that thread gets pulled. So no one went oh that person is shitty at getting the work done and in the end lost a dozen people their jobs because they wanted to be the fun boss who built up people’s skills.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      All of the senior people I have worked with have been smart, engaging people who are genuinely nice to people. Now none of them were perfect — Person A avoided conflict more than I would have liked, Person B had a blind spot when it came to a favorite worker, Person C could be prickly when challenged — etc etc. But in my thirty-plus year career I’ve never encountered a true jerk in senior management.

  70. VT*

    My office has been extremely fortunate to have had very few COVID scares but we also suffer from lack of transparency with our communication. On Monday, two people were sent home to go get COVID tests. We have about 10 people in the office with the rest at home but the people in the office were pretty concerned. We all wear our PPE and follow protocols but it wasn’t clear how “serious” the exposure was or any of the details and we weren’t allowed to talk about it. We knew they were on an external jobsite that reported a positive case but weren’t sure their contact with the positive case. The rumor mill went into high gear (people who met with one of the two people for 5 minutes with full PPE last week was trying to get himself tested) so I contacted HR to see what they could tell us. They sent out an email right away explaining that the jobsite was requiring that all visitors last week, including our two people, had to produce negative test results before being let back onsite. Our two people were not directly exposed and could have been working pending test results because they had no symptoms but they were already home and HR did not want to recall them.

    My question, does your place of employment allow people to work in the office (PPE strictly enforced) pending test results if they don’t show symptoms? Given the facts of this case, I think it makes sense that they could have been working in the office pending test results because they weren’t exposed but some of my coworkers disagree. I worry about next time this happens and how people will take that Gary and Shawn got to stay home last time but Mark has to work pending his test results.

    1. merope*

      No symptoms does not equal no infection, so I would not recommend anyone come to work pending test results.

    2. LQ*

      No, we are if you are exposed sufficiently that you may have it (dr/health department/whoever says you need a test) then you do not come in until you get a clean bill of health.

      If people are just testing without any dr/health department/etc recommendation you can continue to come in.

  71. Evan Þ.*

    I got a new job!

    I’m transferring to a different division in my Very Large Tech Company, starting two weeks from Monday. We’re all working from home now, and will be doing so for the foreseeable future. A lot of me is sorry to leave my current team – we’ve worked very well together, both in the office and remotely – but the work and the lack of an on-call schedule pushed me to apply elsewhere.

    Do you have good ideas how to get to know my new team while working from home? Or, even, how to get to know my new team in general, since this’s the first time I’ve transferred teams in six years?

    1. Rain In Spain*

      Congrats! I usually try to set up (whether formally or informally) short meetings with my new team members to get to know what they do, what they need from me as a team member, etc. Could you maybe set up brief 15 min meetings with each team member just to introduce yourself and talk through that stuff?

  72. Help with ice cold colleague*

    I started my new job two weeks ago and I am really struggling with my closest colleague. She will not include me in anything she does, not introduce me to external contacts, not invite me to meetings, not share documents. We have spoken twice since I started and emailed a couple of times when I asked for some info on the new strategy and she refused to give it to me.

    She hasn’t put ANY document on the portal since she started a year ago, only her predecessor’s docs are there.

    Since we are working from home and my boss still hasn’t bothered to meet with me, I feel lost.

    I have scheduled a meeting with my boss next week. How do I tell my boss that I am not being “let in” and really don’t collaborate well with my colleague? I don’t want to be seen as difficult or complaining but this is not professional and not sustainable.

    And advice or script would be much appreciated!

    1. The Rural Juror*

      I would say, “I looked on the portal for X document and didn’t see it there.” or “It seems like there have been some meetings I wasn’t aware of, am I expected to join those in the future?” as opposed to, “Coworker didn’t put the document on the portal.” or “Coworker won’t invite me to meetings.”

      If my memory serves me right, Alison’s advice in the past has been to be matter-of-fact about it, no accusatory. You’re not throwing your coworker under the bus, you’re just stating what you’ve observed or haven’t been able to access. If your boss still doesn’t seem to get that the coworker is the problem, then at a later time you could go back to them and say something more direct.

      But if your coworker is actually saying NO when you ask for documents or information, I would start with that. It’s one thing if they’re ignoring you…which isn’t great. But it’s another thing if they’re flat out refusing. That could sound like, “I was under the impression that I would need this information in order to work on this project, but Coworker hasn’t given it to me, even after I’ve specifically asked for it. I feel like they’re being standoffish towards me, but I could be misreading the situation. What would you advise me to do?”

      Good luck. Your situation doesn’t sound like fun and I hate that you’re dealing with that in a new job :(

    2. Annony*

      Focus on the things you need. If you need a document and your coworker isn’t giving it to you, you can tell your boss you need the document and ask if there is someone else you can get it from since your coworker is not responsive. If you need to be a part of a meeting that you aren’t being invited to, ask your boss how you can get added to that meeting. This should raise a flag for your boss that your coworker isn’t giving you what you need without you actually saying that you aren’t being “let in”. It is always possible that there is context you are missing such as your coworker being swamped right now.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Contrary to the comment above… I would address it head-on with the boss when you meet, rather than use indirect language like “the document wasn’t there”.

      Your colleague doesn’t include you in anything she does. She refuses to introduce you to external contacts. She doesn’t invite you to relevant meetings nor share relevant documents. When you asked her for information on the new strategy she refused (on what grounds? with what written response?) to provide it.

      It sounds to me that here is someone resentful of a new person coming on, for whatever reason. Was she the only one in this job before and now it’s been deemed that the workload requires 2 people, for example – do you and she have the same job? It speaks volumes that her predecessor put docs on the portal but she doesn’t.

      I have scheduled a meeting with my boss next week. How do I tell my boss that I am not being “let in”

      See above..

      and really don’t collaborate well with my colleague?

      This needs rephrasing as it isn’t a fault of yours, but could come off as that if you say “I don’t collaborate well with Jane” for example. “I am wanting to collaborate but finding it difficult due to things like example x and example y”.

      I am a little bit cynical about what you might receive back.. as I get the sense that you are not the first collaborator Jane has been ice cold with, but that’s just an extrapolation on my part.

      1. Help with ice cold colleague*

        You are actually spot on. She has been alone on this position for a tear since the more senior predecessor left. I have more experience than her, but we are peers. I think she is protecting what she ses as ”her job”.

    4. valentine*

      I have scheduled a meeting with my boss next week.
      I would worry that waiting for a meeting might seem like I don’t assess urgency well. If the refusal was in writing, forward it with a list of her other transgressions and ask for advice.

  73. Mademoiselle F*

    Commentariat, could you please help a French lady out with a language question?

    Is “I request you to do X” polite or rude?

    I read it as a demand and rude and it rubs me the wrong way. It is like giving and order or saying “I demand you to”.

    I don’t think the same about “May I request that…”. Or the standard “could you please”.

    I think there might be difference in use between British English and American English? Is that right?

    1. Rain In Spain*

      American English speaker here. I view that as an attempt to be polite, and have usually seen it phrased that way by non-native speakers. Like you, I typically see (and use) phrases more like: could you please, would you, etc.

    2. a username*

      There are differences between British and American English. As a neutral Midwestern American English native, “I request you to do” feels on a gut level more grammatically clunky than necessarily rude. However, using the word request in general – “I’d like to request you do X…” “Can I request that moving forward…” “My request it that you….” is not something I read as demanding. In my part of the country it’s a softening word in professional conversations. A more “rude” demand would eliminate that type of noun/verb altogether and would read like: “You should do / You need to do…” “Moving forward, do X”

    3. LPUK*

      Yes it sounds a little over formal, even if not precisely rude. I think that, in UK at least, the other two versions you typed would come across better.

      Better than the Germans saying ‘ you must…’ as a literal translation from their language – now that really DOES raise hackles.

    4. Me*

      Depends on who it’s coming from. From a peer it does come across a little rude.

      From a superior or a client -eh. They’re allowed to make demands.

    5. Amtelope*

      I’m not sure it’s rude, but it sounds awkward to me (American). I’d say “I’d like to request that you do X” or “Could you please do X.”

    6. it sure is Friday*

      Saying “I request you to do X” sounds like you’re telling me to do something but are trying to word it nicely. Saying “Could I request that…” or “My request is…” is nicer. I would say this because in the first situation, you could replace “request” with “demand”. In the other two, saying “demand” doesn’t really make sense, because you aren’t demanding you are asking :~)

      – Canadian

    7. Koalafied*

      I don’t know to what extent I represent Americans, but I can give one data point – I vote that it’s polite.

      To me a “request” as a very soft ask. You’re being direct about something you want, but understanding the other person doesn’t have to give it to you, almost supplicating yourself to their whims.

      Using it as a verb sounds a bit fancypants but I will sometimes use it as a polite noun like, “hey, I have a request for you – X needs doing, can you help with that?”

      This is compared to how I speak to my direct report, “Please do X,” or “I need you to do X,” that doesn’t leave it up to her whether or not she wants to do it.

      I sometimes say “Can you do X?” every time but it’s very indirect communication where you’re asking a question that’s different than information you actually want, which is whether they’re able and willing to do it for YOU, and I try to avoid that kind of language.

      There’s also the super-direct/brusque option I would never choose of just, “Do X.”

      All in all, “I request you to do” sounds polite to me, if a tad bit stuffy/formal.

    8. yala*

      American here. It reads as a little demanding to me. “I would like you to do X” or even “Please do X” would probably be better.

      I can’t put my finger on WHY “I request you to do X” feels more aggressive, but it just does.

    9. Emi.*

      To me, it sounds grammatically incorrect in a way that makes me think a non-native speaker wrote it, so I categorically give you the benefit of the doubt for tone. :) But no, it doesn’t sound rude to me. “May I request that” could sound passive-aggressive depending on the context.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yes, this. I would immediately tag it as coming from a non-native speaker, and would assume it’s the way to politely ask for something in their native language.

      2. Buni*

        This was my instant take too – I didn’t notice if it was ~rude~ or not, it just came across as ‘bad’ / incorrect (UK) English.

        Maybe “Can I request that you…”, but you defo need the ‘that’.

    10. Annony*

      It doesn’t strike me as rude, more like awkward phrasing. My first thought when I read it is that it was coming from a non-native speaker. I think context is important. Is this someone who should be asking you to do X? If the request itself is reasonable, then I would say they are awkward but not rude. If the request is more them asking a favor, it is rude phrasing.

    11. PollyQ*

      As others have noted, it’s not quite correct English, and also more formal than is generally needed.

      “Hey, could you send me the Fergust Teapot files? Boss wants me to review them for the Friday meeting. Thanks!” would be fine in any work situation I’ve been in. (American)

    12. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      As you know, there are so many differences between BrE and AmE but I don’t think this is one of them!

      “I request you do”, coming from a non-native speaker of English, would usually be accepted as seemingly a little rude perhaps but understood as a nuance of language.

      If you are asking about native speakers of English, … yes, “I request you to do X” could be rude in context. Maybe in the context of a conversation where people discussed whether X was the proper thing to do, but the person with decision making power then said “I request you do X” even if they were advised against it.

      I would never say “I request you to do X” in normal (native English) conversation at work, but rather “please can you..” or “could you..” or just “I need X to be completed by 12.00, thanks” but ‘request’ would be odd in that context.

      Can you give a bit more context, an example sentence/situation?

    13. RagingADHD*

      That construction is completely not idiomatic in US English.

      Therefore, I would conclude the speaker/writer is either not a native speaker has extremely poor communication skills.

      Based on that conclusion, I would not place any kind of polite/rude value judgments on it, and focus instead on making sure we are clearly communicating in substance.

      I just don’t think it’s fair to put a nuanced interpretation on language where the basics are so far out of whack.

      2. pancakes*

        I wouldn’t read that phrasing as extremely poor communication skills. Nearly everyone who’s responded agrees that it’s likely from a non-native English speaker trying to be polite and missing the mark just a little.

    14. Girasol*

      Peer to peer an American might say, “Would you do X please?” and possibly explain why it is important and when it is needed. A manager might say the same to an employee, or if the manager wanted to be firmer about demanding action, he might say, “I need you to do X,” again, possibly followed with a reason and a date when it is needed.

      1. Mademoiselle F*

        It comes from a native New Yorker, third gen american. He is a peer.

        I guess it still means that he is trying to sound more senior/better than he actually is and isn’t being very successful.

  74. Bankruptcy & employee benefits*

    Thanks to all who responded to my query a couple weekends ago. My friend has been using the advice to get more info and said to send her thanks to the commentariat.

  75. Not your servant*

    My colleague is driving me insane. He has always been nice and fun to be around, but since his last promotion he he just become obnoxious.

    He thinks he is my boss (he is still below me in title) and that he can order me to do admin work on some projects where he takes the credit. He is also stepping into my projects and schedules meetings and just takes over.

    The last straw was when he prematurely presented something we should have worked on together but hadn’t yet started, as his own project and when got criticised for not having done it right, threw me under the bus and said I had explained it badly to him.

    Besides strangling him, how do I get him to stop? It irks me so much that I nowadays get angry just by seeing emails or invites from him.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Talk to your boss — get clarification on what the roles are supposed to be. I had to do this once — “Help me understand, is Fergus my boss or are you?” Only phrase it that way if you are 100% certain that the answer is that it is NOT Fergus. When I asked my boss that question about a colleague it immediately flagged pretty much all of the issues and opened up a good conversation about how I could and should push back when Fergus overstepped bounds.

  76. peachie*

    Didn’t want to get off-topic with the questions this morning, but I inadvertently ended up with what is apparently a reasonably professional-looking Zoom setup without buying any equipment, so I thought I’d share.

    I already had dual monitors on riser stands* and started moving them as far to the outer edge of the stand as possible in order to fit a laptop/phone on the stand between them (because my desk is too small to put it anywhere else). My best attempt to represent an overhead view:

    [/ ][ \]

    / = monitors
    [ ] = risers (laptop/camera balanced between ][)

    The laptop-on-the-stand ended up being a more flattering angle than flat-on-the-desk would have been. (And, as a bonus, monitors on the side mean MUCH less glasses glare!)

    The dual monitors also do most of the heavy lifting in the lighting department. My background is a slideshow of gradients in pleasing colors (I think I just downloaded a bunch from a site called ‘uiGradients’) and found that the lighting from that alone is incredibly soft and flattering. If I need to have something up on the screen(s), I try to keep the focus on something with a lighter background — I’ve found that an approximately even ‘lightness’ from each screen looks better. I have also found that, weirdly, keeping the light in the rest of the room on the lower side looks better, especially if you have backlighting/windows behind you.

    Obviously this setup is not feasible for everyone, but since I stumbled into a setup I’ve been complimented on weirdly often (that was really just a result of me trying to fit all my equipment on a small desk!), I thought I’d share!

    * Side note: I didn’t have monitor stands for a long time — my monitors move up and down, so I didn’t see the point — but dang if they aren’t helpful, especially for small desks! I keep my docking station under one and my mouse under another. Highly recommend. :)

    1. pancakes*

      That’s a good tip about gradient backgrounds, and reminds me of the 1980s makeup application mirrors that had a switch for daylight / office (hideous fluorescent) / candlelight. My stepsister had one and I thought the candlelight setting (a pinkish tone) was so glamorous!

  77. Amber Rose*

    I’ve been part of the quality audit this week, which makes this the fourth friggin audit I’ve been in this year, but somehow also the most brutal. And I realized something. There’s no way I have the technical background to run the quality program. Not even close. Not even if they started training me last year. I’d need several years of extensive training on the technical side of our products to even start taking on some of this stuff.

    Quality is so intense. I didn’t know. :(

    I’ll be taking some of the surface stuff, but I can’t take over like they wanted me to. And the current quality manager can’t give it the time he needs to because he’s doing certifications, which is more than a full time job by itself. We need another person. There’s no way around it. Two people can’t do this much work.

    Now how the heck do we convince management?

      1. irene adler*

        You should articulate exactly what skills are in need right now.
        Just asking for another set of hands won’t be as convincing as “we need a tea pot quality specialist with a background in tea pot design and experience in applying ISO 12345 standards to the manufacturing of these tea pots”.
        Then explain what things are not being addressed as they should be. Something like, “we can handle the next audit, but implementing the new FDA design control regs by the deadline of June 2021 will not happen without a third hand here. We’re way behind with this project as it is. ”
        Your manager should be able to add to this description.

      2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        Um. Fail the audit would have huge organisational implications (not to mention that the findings of an audit ought to be objective, and not ‘sabotaged’ by internal people, least of all by someone already involved in the Quality function…!) Anyone deliberately causing an audit to be failed at any of the places I’ve worked would have faced severe consequences.

        This is an organisational issue, though. Can any of the current quality manager’s “lower-level” duties be offloaded to a putative new person, in which case that’s the case you need to make to management.

        What’s the (organisational) relationship between the Quality Manager and yourself (and what’s your general title as it concerns Quality?)

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Agreed. “Fail the audit” could lose significant business, lose significant certifications, and internal sabotage likely would end up with people fired, not the emergency hire of a new set of helping hands.

          Delegate as you can, and lay out exactly what needs to be done (with time expectations) to the management level that can make the decision to hire more staff.

        2. fhgwhgads*

          The point isn’t “intentionally fail the audit”. It’s not a sabotage plan. If the issue is “this isn’t possible with current staffing” then the proof of that will be the stuff not getting done, which results in failing the audit.
          I mean sure, first, try to convince them of the necessity, but if they won’t listen to reason, it won’t get solved and the proof that will wake them up is the consequences that were very clearly predicted. If the options are work til you crack because there are literally not enough hours in the day vs fail the audit, the former suggests the status quo is ok and the latter shows that it’s not.

    2. RagingADHD*

      You can only do what you can do.

      Just be very clear with management as to what skills are lacking, and what the consequences will be. Document the issues you’re having, and document that you are raising them to management.

      Ultimately it’s managements responsibility to make sure the audit gets passed, so if you’ve informed them appropriately, all you can do is try your best and do what you can do.

  78. Limeade*

    Salary/raise question.

    I am on a multi-year contract and recently saw the contract for this year (Year 2, July 20 – June 21). My position was given a raise of 3%…I haven’t been given this raise.

    I want to ask about it, but I also feel like it would be frowned upon given the ~times~. I am the only person that is paid with this contract and all other money allocated for the contract goes to things like software upgrades. Let’s assume, Year 2 was funded 100%…is there any reason I shouldn’t ask about it?

    1. irene adler*

      No. Ask.
      They would expect you to honor your end of things outlined in the contract-right?
      So should they.

    2. Limeade*

      Also, I’ve been with the company for many years. All performance reviews have been a 4 or 5 and my most recent review was top marks 5/5.

      I feel like the reason I haven’t been given the raise is because all non-union folks weren’t given a raise (aka COLA) this year and “we’re all in this together”…except if you’re union; you still got your increase.

        1. Limeade*

          I want to say it totally might have been an accident, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a “well, most people are impacted X way, so giving you a raise wouldn’t be fair” or some BS like that.

          Either way, I’m asking next week! Thanks, irene!

    3. It happens*

      None whatsoever. If this is a grant then the funder will need proof that the grant was spent in accordance with the agreement. If the document you saw was only the application, then this does not apply so rigorously.

  79. Kara S*

    I work in an industry where contracts are project based (we aren’t quite freelance contractors but we aren’t quite employees). My stay at a company could be anywhere from three months to a year. Typically people will be given 1 year contracts that continuously are extended until the project is done. Sometimes you are moved onto other projects at the same company and the process repeats, sometimes you aren’t. My stays have been just under 3 and 2 years at two different companies, which I thought was very long until I read this blog! At my current job, I’ve only been there a few months but my contract is running out soon so I’m job hunting again because there is no guarantee I will be extended.

    The issue is that I’m applying for a few jobs outside of my industry and now I’m worried my resume may look flighty when that isn’t the case. When I left the 3 year job, it was because my contract had run out after a particularly bad project and they only offered to extend me for 3 months. When I left the 2 year job, it was to go back to school for a year (program on hold due to COVID, so I started working again in May). It all makes complete sense to people in my industry but for these outlier jobs, I’m concerned I won’t get calls back. Any help is appreciated :~)

    Also if it matters, yes this setup is legal and I am not in the USA.

    1. Dissatisfied*

      For the most recent job, you could put it on your resume like this: “Teapot Analyst (3-month contract), June 2020-Sept. 2020” or you could do “Teapot Analyst (temporary), June 2020-Sept. 2020”.

      For the other two, I don’t think a 3 year stay followed by a 2 year stay looks super flighty? Especially if they weren’t senior-level positions.

    2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      My industry is the same (I’m in the UK). I have just labelled them as fixed term contracts either on my CV or on applications. I haven’t applied for many jobs outside my field lately but I haven’t had any feedback that this seemed flighty or like I can’t hold down a job.

  80. livelaughandrun*

    On my resume: I have a position I have been at for 10 years. From 2010-2013 it was full time 40 hours a week, from 2013 -2014 it was part time 20 hours a week and 2014- present it is maybe 4 hours a month. In many ways its still the same position I do accounting for them but the volume and need changed. I currently put something like:
    Lllama Corp
    September 2010 to Present
    Accountant (Part time) (September 2013 – Present)
    Accountant (September 2010 – September 2013)

    Also the company I work for when COVID hit I had just received a promotion literally weeks before furlough:
    So it says:

    Bookkeeper/Assistant Manager/Service Manager
    September 2018 to June 2020
    Service Manager (February 2020 – June 2020)
    Bookkeeper/Assistant Manager (September 2018 – February 2020)

    These are both really odd situations that I explain in interviews but may cause issues in interviews should I change them?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Hello other me.

      You don’t usually need to explain these things to people, I rarely have. It comes across in the resume fine. I explain that I have worked for multiple places part time or on the “as needed” basis when their needs change. Everyone understands that companies scale back in their needs.

      That being said, I always look for the same size/scope setups and so they are much more in tune with the “norms” that small companies have. If you’re looking to expand into larger scale enviornments, that may be where confusion and “Huh, they suddenly didn’t need a bookkeeper full time, that’s suspicious…” then you have to get more into “well the company was literally dying so…” aspect.

      I wouldn’t look at these as challenges or anything you need to spin. Tell them that the jobs naturally ended or wound down in time they needed you. Explain you were given a promotion and then you were put on furlough because the company couldn’t stay open during COVID!

    2. PollyQ*

      I don’t see either of those as odd at all. It’s very normal, IME, for people to have held a variety of roles while working for one employer, or for someone to have a part-time job on the side of another full-time job. I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

    3. Epsilon Delta*

      I found it quite confusing to understand the second example because the chronological order made no sense, until I figured out it was {all jobs titles at this company (date range)} followed by {recent job title (date range)} then {previous job title (date range)}. I’d suggest getting rid of that first line that includes all job titles and dates because I was pretty thrown by it even with your explanation! Just list each job separately.

      Company
      Service Manager (February 2020 – June 2020)
      *accomplishment
      *accomplishment

      Bookkeeper/Assistant Manager (September 2018 – February 2020)
      *accomplishment
      *accomplishment

      The first example looked fine to me. Good luck in your search!

  81. Watch for Motorcycles*

    Who else hates this “stupid manager trick” —

    “Did you/we [do the thing that I totally forgot to tell anyone to do and now it’s almost too late to do it but you’re going to have to drop everything to do it anyway, all the while profusely apologizing that you never did the thing that I never once told you that you had to do]?”

    (apologies if this is a double post)

    1. RagingADHD*

      Why would you have to apologize?

      Drop everything and do the thing, and then ask for a meeting to discuss how the situation could be avoided in future.

  82. Bookslinger In My Free Time*

    I have my CLTD exam in the morning. I have never gotten test anxiety before, but this might also be the first four hour test where I will not be allowed a break or food- virtual test, so it’s all weird restrictive rules to prevent cheating (2020 norm, right?). I have a few formula worksheets to practice with today (since I will not be allowed the formula cards I made for studying) and that’s as good as I think it can get without psyching myself out.

  83. Senior Capstone Nightmare*

    Oh, my god, please help. I’m doing my yearlong senior project and my professors are driving me absolutely buckwild! Every week, they give us a very vague list of deliverables (think maybe, “grooming plan, salon layout, permit application”) and no other instructions or expectations. These aren’t things we learned to do in classes! We learned how to clip alpaca nails and braid llama manes! Class ends up being each group presenting whatever we’ve cobbled together, and then being asked why we didn’t do this, that, and that other thing. Uh, because we had no idea you wanted those? And, based on our curriculum, would not have thought to include them? It’s so, so demoralizing — it’s literally an hour of negative feedback with no positive feedback to speak of. We’ve asked a couple times “could you give us some more explicit expectations?” and they just say “bring us something, and we’ll tell you if we don’t like it.” Well, they don’t like anything apparently!

    I’ve tried asking for clarification throughout the week, and even showing what I’ve got so far, and they’ll tell me it’s fine or to fix one thing, and then we get to presentations and apparently I’m missing everything important. I get sick to my stomach before every presentation because I know it won’t go well no matter what I do.

    My classmates have shifted mindsets to focus on the project, not the professors, but I do not care about this project. It’s not in my specialization, there’s no realistic way to bring it in (and god forbid the project is unrealistic!) and all I want is to do a satisfactory job and get it over with. But it’s hard to do a satisfactory job when I don’t know what the criteria are.

    Okay, so I guess my question is: is there a better way to get this across to my professors? is there a better way I can look at this so I don’t lose my mind before I graduate and get the heck out of here?

    1. JustaTech*

      I’ve had these professors and they are the worst. So you’re not at all out of bounds for being frustrated.
      You’ve already done the first step, which is to ask for more clarification, and they haven’t given it to you. (Which is a complete jerk move, from a boss or a professor.)

      So, next up I would say, try to keep working with your professors, but I think your classmates have the right idea to work *around* your professors.
      So I might try by asking the professors if there are some industry standards they’re expecting you to follow (and try to find them for yourself as well).
      Then I’d ask around to see if the previous class’ presentations are available for you to look at (if that’s allowed at your schools, I know some places are super up-tight about that stuff). If you can, I’d also suggest that you (and your team/classmates) try to find someone who took the class last year and ask if you can pick their brains about it (once, in a structured setting like a meeting or a single email; folks are more likely to offer to help if you show you won’t be bombarding them with questions all semester).
      Stick with your classmates as much as you can, even though you don’t care about the project. Better you and your classmates against the professors than you against the world.

      And since you’re almost done, if making a medium fuss won’t risk your graduation, I’d be very explicit, with examples, in the course survey about why this style of teaching did not work. (And if it gets really really bad and you manage to get in writing the professors clearly contradicting themselves to your detriment, maybe consider taking it to the Dean.)

    2. Lifelong student*

      It seems to me that the instructions you have been given are guidelines to direct you in your own research. If I were told to develop those things- I would look at what has been written about them in professional literature, seek out resources in the community, look at government rulings. Professors should give you some guides to resources to explore- but the actual exploration is up to you. If you prepare your presentation and cite your resources, it will improve your presentation. Seriously, Google can find you experts on almost anything- and discussions of issues that arise in each step of a business plan. Don’t expect your instructors or future managers to hold your hand- show some initiative!

  84. Fall leaves*

    I’ve been working at a scale-up for little over a year. We are doing really well and are backed by a very large company. Our team has grown from 3 to 12, all reporting to the same boss. The company has grown from 200 to 400. We have offices on 4 continents. And this has come with all the growing pains…
    I really enjoyed the first 6 months of my job and then things got bad. Several teams are working on the same thing in parallel. Roles aren’t defined so I have ended up with tasks that are 2-3 levels over mine or an intern could do them. I’ve initiated a lot of discussions with my boss but things are going really slowly.
    For several reasons, this is not a good time for me to jobsearch. I still have hope that this can turn into something good again. So my question is: does this get better? Have you decided to wait it out at a start-up or scale-up and were glad you did?

  85. OkapiFeels*

    Public Library in a hotspot state–we’re opening for limited browsing hours next week, and I was assigned to work the new “evening” (until 7 but still) browsing hours. I’m at a level where I’m obligated to take temperatures, monitor behavior, and enforce rules–i.e. be the person that gets screamed at (which has already happened multiple times). I could go into all the rage-inducing details, but suffice to say I realized that I just can’t do this long-term. This isn’t the level of stress and responsibility I signed up for. It’s not a level of stress and responsibility that I am capable of handling without having a mental health crisis. I’m officially on the job-hunt, full-time.

    It’s been weirdly liberating to admit that I *can’t* do this, and that I need to figure out how to move on. For one, I finally stopped procrastinating on speaking with a mental health professional. But it’s released a lot of the pressure I’ve put on myself to rise to the occasion–I’ll still do the best I can while I’m here, but I’m no longer pressuring myself to just…accept all the stress and shoulder it like Atlas. Regardless of how well others are handling it, of the fact that I’ve been assigned all this like *I* can handle it, I can’t, and I can find something else that’s not going to cause me long-term damage. Weirdly, I feel more capable of dealing with all of this short-term knowing that I finally have something I can do that can fix it in the long-term.

    It’s silly, but I just didn’t realize how liberating it would be to decide to leave.

    1. My sympathies*

      I was just at our public library for early voting. There were people there who would not stand six feet away from other people despite the very visible floor markings. Same people not wearing masks or wearing them under their noses. Despite a state mandate for masks indoors. I mentioned to a friend how disturbing this was to me as a person at high risk who had been staying in since March. (I felt that voting was something I was willing to risk with PPE precautions) My friend was insistent that the library staff was responsible for “making those people wear masks” I said absolutely not, how is this the library staff members job?! It is an impossible situation. Thank you for your service.

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        If we had a sane world you would be able to hire trained security staff to enforce those rules. It’s beyond absurd that ordinary workers are being expected to act as law enforcement, especially when members of the public can and do become violent.

  86. Kathlynn (Canada)*

    I just started a new job… And then got a cold. Here’s hoping it clears up fast. Can be coughing while talking to customers.

    1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

      Btw, it’s a sinus cold which always make me get a cough as it agrivates my asthma. It’s not covid19

  87. They're not perfect but they did good here.*

    My employer is running a corporate program for community volunteers.
    The promo photo shows a muscular woman moving a huge, full wheelbarrow.
    I’m celebrating one small deviation from stereotype.

    1. ArtsNerd*

      Oh yes, that’s definitely refreshing to see! I’ve lost the “what photos we select and what signals they send” conversation several times.

  88. Jessie*

    I have a bizarre update. I wrote last week, that I was having a problem with my five year old’s tutor. My son has ASD and we hired this tutor to give him academic support twice a week. The deal was that she would come twice, on the weekends in the morning. She was very qualified and my son liked her and she liked my son a lot. But the problem was she canceled constantly. Every week, either one or both sessions would be canceled, for different reasons. When I wrote my post last week, she had just canceled again because she decided to go on a trip. The reason we never fired her, is because we live in a country without much support for special needs children and it was a miracle to find her.
    Last week, a lot of people advised me to talk to her. Earlier this week, I called her to schedule this weekend’s schedule. I didn’t really have a “talk” with her, but I said that we need to be consistent from now on and if we cancel a session, we need to try and make it up at another time during the week. She didn’t say anything.
    We were supposed to have our session this morning. Yesterday night, I sent her a message confirming it. When I woke up, I was relieved to see that there is no cancelation because she usually texts me to cancel early in the morning. But then, literally five minutes before our zoom session was due to start, she texted me that she can’t make it. Honestly, I couldn’t take it anymore. I responded with “are you kidding??” She didn’t like that at all. She called and said that no, she’s not kidding. she’s sick. I told her that I understand she’s sick, but there have been a lot of cancelations, and I can send her screenshots from our chat history. She didn’t like that either. It made her angry. She told me, there is “no need for screenshots,” and denied there were cancelations. I told her, well I don’t know what to do, I have a son who needs support and is not getting it. I’m lost. She said, well, if you don’t like me canceling, then let’s not continue working together. And that was that. I was bummed. We are already four weeks into the term and it will be hard to find someone.
    Then she called me a few hours later. She was sobbing. It was so awkward. I kept asking her if she was ok. She said that I hurt her feelings when I asked her if she was kidding. Then we had the weirdest conversation for 30 minutes, where she was sobbing the whole time. Sobbing to the point that she was struggling to talk and breathe. She told me that she is old, single and has no children. That she works hard and cares about the children she works with. That she is exhausted and works very hard. I told her that we like her a lot, not just as a teacher, but also as a person. I explained that she is one of the best people we’ve worked with since our son was diagnosed and that my husband and I felt that she genuinely cared about our son. And then we kept going on in circles; with her saying how much she puts into her job and how she cares about the kids and me reassuring her that we have no problem with her character or her qualifications and that our problem was with the constant cancelations. At one point, she snapped, “I don’t want to hear about that,” when I mentioned the cancelations.
    In the end, I told her, would you like to work with my son, but reschedule canceled sessions sometime in the week? She said no, she can’t do that. I told her ok, do you want me to look for someone else? She said, no. Then she said she will sleep on this and she will call me tomorrow.
    This is incredibly stressful for me. She says that she works very hard and by the weekend she is exhausted. But is this my fault? When I hired her last year, I told her that I need someone to work with my child twice a week and she agreed. She’s the one who suggested weekend mornings. I don’t know what happened. Did she find that it was too much? I feel like I’m in a mess. I don’t know what the “verdict” will be tomorrow, but either way, I think we need to look for someone else, which will take ages :(

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re being manipulated and possibly gas-lighted@!!!!!$#$(*289734

      Don’t continue to work with this woman.

      If someone isn’t meeting your child’s needs, you have every right to find someone else and cut this person loose. It does not mean she doesn’t “work hard” with her other clients or she’s a “Bad person” or whatever else she is pretending you are saying to her.

      Cut the ties. DONT do this. It’s not healthy for YOU or your kiddo,.

      1. Jessie*

        I did feel that I was being gaslighted. Specifically, because she wouldn’t admit that she canceled often and got annoyed when I mentioned sending screenshots. And yes, it’s not healthy. I felt completely drained after the phone call. Even after I apologized for the “are you kidding?” comment, she went on and on.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Independent “small business “owners like this [which is essentially what it is, she’s a one person show, and takes in clients] often struggle with having their limits firm.

          Sounds like she couldn’t really afford to say ‘no” to your job offer but couldn’t physically do it either. That’s unfortunate. She can’t handle the work load, she can’t handle you as a client! But she’s having a personal issue with it all. Not a good sign and she’s causing herself to get sick all the time for doing this stress on herself! Sadly she sees it as she can’t afford otherwise. Not-your-circus.

    2. Cornflake*

      It sounds like she’s got a lot on her plate and is struggling to stay on top of it all. However, lying and refusing to talk about the issue is a huge red flag.

      Regardless, you hired her because your son needs help. If she doesn’t show, you might as well have not hired her. If you’re feeling generous, give her another chance. But even if she does improve, I would start looking for someone else. You don’t need to tell her, since it might take a while to find a replacement and if she starts showing up your son may still benefit from her help. However, it sounds like she’s got other issues, and even if she stops cancelling, there might be other problems.

      1. Jessie*

        She actually refused to tell me if she will continue with us or not. She told me that she is worried that she will disappoint me again. But then, when I told her that I can start looking for someone else, she told me not to and that she will sleep on it. She will let me know her decision tomorrow.
        I’m so stressed. It’s so hard to find someone suitable and we are already one month into term.

        2. tangerineRose*

          Start looking for someone else. I don’t know what’s going on with her, but she’s lying (she said she didn’t cancel sessions) and trying to emotionally manipulate you.

      2. Happy Lurker*

        Start looking for someone new immediately. Whatever this current tutor decides to do, you need consistent help. You said the tutor hiring market is difficult. Get a jump on that.

        If you hire another tutor and they start then you can decide what to do with the cancelling tutor. Maybe some weeks you end up with 4 sessions. If you can afford 4 sessions, fine. If you can’t then deal with letting the cancelling tutor go.

    3. Massive*

      Cut ties with her… doesn’t sound like she’s in a good place to be a professional tutor to your child.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        This is the main issue to me: she is not stable enough to have influence over children. Also if you are doing tutoring over Zoom, could you seek out tutors from other countries where there is a larger pool of people to hire? I know crossing international lines can be tricky.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          And children with special needs! Who require more care in who they are exposed to because they can be extra vulnerable to these kinds of flaky, over emotional and manipulative “adults”.

        2. Jessie*

          We are actually considering this. However, with our local currency being so bad, the exchange rate will be insane. We will probably pay an insane amount of money. However, honestly, I don’t mind doing it for a few months if it will help my son catch up. However, it wouldn’t be a long term plan.
          1 dollar = 16 pounds from our local currency.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      If I remember right, some of her cancellations were because she decided to take a spontaneous trip? So maybe they aren’t *all* because she’s exhausted by the weekend?

      Anyway. I’d look for someone else. Yes, it will take time. But in two or three weeks, when you’re dealing with the same level of flakiness from her, you will be glad you have a head start.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Her reasoning outside the “I’m sick” or “emergency” all says “I can’t commit to the schedule we originally planned on.” to me. Everyone gets sick or has to rush their dog to the vet at some point but yeah “spontanous trip” or “My family just showed up” falls into “That’s nice…you have responsibilities though, so do it AFTER you tutor my kid!”

        She’s bad at planning. She may be overbooked. So she should say “Next week, I need to cancel! I need to take some time off for personal reasons. But I’ll be back on schedule the following week.” then the person has time to plan around that. I’d be frigging PISSED if we planned for a session all week and everyone planned around it only so someone can say “Nah sorry, spontaneous trip time instead!”

        I’d bet money that if Jessie cancelled last minute when this person was ready to do their session, that person would still demand payment because the time was you know…already planned out and booked. This is why there’s a cancellation fee involved in most setups like this unless you give proper [pre agreed upon length of time] notice!

      2. Jessie*

        Yes. She canceled because of a trip last time. Other reasons included she’s sick, her mom’s sick, she tripped on her dog and she scheduled something else and forgot to tell me. Sometimes she would just text “sorry, can’t come,” without any reason given.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Look, how can she be investing so much in the kids she works with if she’s not actually showing up more than once in a blue moon?

      Your kid doesn’t need an extra grandma. He needs tutoring. He needs consistency.

      She can either provide it or she can’t.

      It’s very sad that she’s exhausted, but the way she’s jerked you around with this last minute nonsense is unprofessional and rude.

      Fire her nicely.

      “It was clear from our last conversation that this arrangement isn’t working for you. You are exhausted and under a tremendous amount of stress.

      It’s not working out for us, either, because we need a level of consistency that is too demanding for you right now, with everything else you have going on. So we’re going to find someone else, and I hope things work out well for you.”

      And then you hang the fuck up. Conversation over.

      1. Jessie*

        To be quite honest, she does seem to really care about the boy. She’s not money obsessed like the other therapists/tutors we have worked with. But you are right, he doesn’t need another grandma. He needs a tutor. That’s exactly it.

      1. valentine*

        Run fast and far! You were free! The hills were alive!

        But she sucked you back in to her loop. She wants credit for making promises she doesn’t keep and won’t hear facts or truths! Reading about narcissists might help you.

        Fire her and block her number. If your resolve wobbles, remember how awful the phone hostage situation felt and spare yourself a repeat. Continuing to engage can only make things worse, not better, and every bit of it stops you getting your son what he needs. He is crossing a busy street and she keeps stepping into his path, saying she’s not, and sobbing about it! She’s got to go, and don’t let her con you into reconsidering in the future, giving her anything, or accepting referrals. Make that clean and eternal break.

        1. Jessie*

          She actually didn’t call today. So, I guess that’s it.
          We have an appointment with a possible tutor on Tuesday and I have a list of centers I will call tomorrow.
          But I have to say, I am still pretty rattled about the whole thing. I actually apologized repeatedly for my “are you kidding” text. But I honestly don’t think it warranted this kind of sobbing. Something is off with her.
          I am really stressed about finding support for my son. Fingers crossed we can find someone good soon.

    7. Jessi*

      this is not the behaviour of a professional!

      I guarantee that if you keep her on she will continue on with this pattern of cancelling or no-showing. She has already shown you that she in unreliable – why are you not believing her?

      I understand its hard to find someone where you are and that it’s really expensive, but does your child need tutoring or not? Because at this point he is only getting half (or a third – its hard to tell how often she is cancelling from your posts) of the tutoring you think he needs.

      You have three options: 1) hire someone new and fire her. They take more of your money, but are reliable and your child progresses.
      2) hire someone else, to come on other days, accept that this tutor will cancel half the time and you will never know when, but your child will receive 1.5 lots of tutoring.
      3) Don’t fire her, and literally never know if she will be there or not, and deal with the stress of it.

      1. Jessie*

        I think number one is probably the best option because different tutors have different styles and he may end up getting confused. They may also end up covering the same material over and over. I think a new tutor is the best option for us.

  89. California Girl*

    Update about the coworker Alex. We had another discussion and I basically got tone policed. Alex didn’t think I was talking to them properly for a work environment. Alex also was used to only taking assignments from their direct supervisor, not from a project manager.

    Alex also doesn’t think my concerns are significant enough to warrant even mentioning.

    The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth, even though I was told by my supervisor that my concerns were taken seriously.

    Moving on. I have a new project with Alex and ideally they will look at it as a fresh start. There have been no further complaints.

  90. Koalafied*

    Yay or nay?

    About a week ago I applied for a job with a company I’ve heard good things about through my extended network. There were two jobs in my field posted and based on the titles I decided one was more senior and the other more junior and applied for the more senior one.

    Today I’m kind of wishing I had applied for both and used my cover letter to explain it as my having experience and interest in the two different subject matters involved in the two roles, each subject matter only had one relevant open role – and they were at different levels, but both still appeal to me in different ways.

    Does it send a message I want to avoid to apply for the more junior position, one week after the more senior one? Like I’ve decided that I clearly didn’t get the senior job and now I’m lowering my standards out of desperation?

    In reality I had a stressful week at work and found myself thinking, “you know, I might not mind taking a step down somewhere, as long as it pays enough it’d be kind of nice to have less responsibility again. I’m open to that.” I suppose I can put that in my cover letter but it feels like revealing a little too much of my hand, and it’s not as easy to explain as if I had applied for them both at the same time instead of changing my mind about this one after initially rejecting it as a possibility.

    1. Annony*

      It sounds like you don’t know for sure whether one is significantly more junior than your current role or what the pay is. If asked, could you say that one seemed like it might be a lateral move and the other a step up? Or is it very clearly junior?

      1. Koalafied*

        The titles are something like:

        Senior Race Car Driving Manager
        Senior RV Driver

        So they both have senior at the beginning, but only one has a manager title and because the other one doesn’t have any of the traditional job grade signals at the end, it’s ambiguous. Some kind of individual contributor role, but that could be any level!

  91. Figgie*

    Just wanted to say a big THANK YOU to the Ask a Manager commentariat!

    My spouse and I decided that we were totally done with winter and are heading to warmer parts this November. He’d been having me ask here about how much notice to give to retire and a bunch of other questions about remote work and how to frame things and you guys gave such excellent help!

    He delayed giving notice to retire until a month before we are planning to leave, mostly to prevent his boss from working him to death during his notice period and also to put some pressure on them. There is a lot of stuff going on at his workplace that he is literally the only person in the company who can deal with it. The delay was in case they wanted to keep him on, working remotely from said warmer place. And it took them less than an hour to tell him that they wanted him to stay, they had zero problem with him working remotely from warmer place and that they would do whatever they could to help facilitate the process!

    So, he will retire in about a year. We will have the next 6 months away from snow and will be able to get used to wintering there. Everything worked out perfectly! Mostly because of all the helpful, thoughtful suggestions he received here.

    So again, thank you, everyone!!!!

    Ask a Manager commentators are the absolutely best!!

  92. Lurking Tom*

    How much sick time from an employee before you start seeing it as excessive?

    This sounds dumb even typing it, but I have used 4 sick days so far this year – three for me, one for my cat (which is allowed under our policy). I also had the flu during 2 scheduled vacation days in January (my only vacation so far this year). My last sick day was June 1.

    I know logically this doesn’t seem excessive, but I feel like I am out way more than anyone else at my organization and that if I take more time I’m gonna be that guy that’s “always out” or “never around” because compared to everyone else, I will be! To be fair, I don’t really know how much sick time most of the rest of the org takes because we only tend to know people are out if we work with them directly, so this is just speculation coming from not having ever gotten an out of office sick message from anyone.

    1. It's me*

      this doesn’t raise any concerns for me. 4 days in a year seems completely “normal”. I’d be more concerned if an employee was taking every Monday or Friday off, saw suspicious things on social media after them calling in, or something else along those lines. I would not think twice about your sick time!

      1. Lurking Tom*

        Thank you! God, I can’t imagine even using social media while sick. I can barely stand it anymore when I’m fully healthy, LOL.

        1. It's me*

          and honestly, even if I saw something suspicious on social media, it would have to be a pattern to be worth worrying about. We are all adults and I trust that when someone says they’re sick then they’re sick.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I might be paranoid about this, but if I take a sick day, I stay completely off of social media. 4 days doesn’t seem like a lot of sick days to me.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      This isn’t even a blip on the radar. Five or more times a month (consistently) starts to get my attention — but four times in a year is far less than most.

    3. JustaTech*

      That seems completely normal.
      I’ve worked with folks who might miss two or three days a month, someone who never got sick, someone who got utterly hammered with pneumonia, someone who had debilitating periods, someone who would take off for minor colds because his minor colds had a habit of turning into sinus infections.

      One way to think about it is, how many sick days do you get in a year? If you haven’t used half by September you’re completely fine. Heck, if you’ve used 3/4 by September, that’s what your company has expected, so it should also be fine.
      4 days in a pandemic? Pish tosh, that’s nothing.

      1. Lurking Tom*

        I have 8 left: 2 carryover from last year (I was only there 3 months, so + 10 this year – 4 taken, so I guess I have used 1/3 so far. When I look at it like that, it seems less excessive.

        1. Lurking Tom*

          That was meant to say “I was only there 3 months, so the 2 carryover is out of 3 accrued last year, not a full 10”

    4. Summersun*

      My company starts to give write-ups after five sick days in a year, but it’s inconsistently applied and based on manager discretion. Some write up after only three days. People are expected to magically stay well, and many use PTO for sick days.

      1. Lurking Tom*

        Oh God, that’s horrible. I feel like these are the kinds of policies that make people come into the office sick and infect everyone around them.

      2. ArtsNerd*

        Hah, I would get fired so fast if this were my employer. I’ve got multiple chronic conditions I’m still working to get under control.

      3. tangerineRose*

        That’s horrible. Only 5 sick days, and people get write-ups! What’s wrong with this company? Does it not apply to management, or are managers lucky enough to be very healthy?

    5. PollyQ*

      Nth-ing that 4 days in 9 months is nothing at all. No reasonable employer or co-worker would call this out as a problem, or even notice it.

      1. Lurking Tom*

        Thank you. I know that most of this is just my brain trying to undermine me, but it’s nice to get outside confirmation.

    6. Alex*

      If you’re sick, you should take off of work!!

      Comparing yourself to your colleagues isn’t really the point. Some people don’t get sick much, and some people do. That’s just…people.

      For me, I last took a sick day 18 months ago. But I have a bizzarely robust immune system and rarely get sick! I have coworkers who seem to get sick at least once a month. It doesn’t really matter. As a routinely healthy person, I’d rather sick people stay home, thanks very much!

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I just want to say that you may not notice how much sick leave your colleagues are taking! It’s not NORMAL to track other people’s time out of office unless it is so excessive you can’t help but notice [like if someone calls in once a week or every other week kind of excessive.]

      Even once a month isn’t that excessive to me and rarely pings on my radar and I am HR and in charge of the timeclock system.

      I saw the comment about getting written up after 5 days? That’s some call-center level B-S Nonsense and not a healthy work environment that anyone should be apart of.

  93. It's me*

    I posted this summer about job titles for accountants in private as my boss and I were working on a promotion. With the state of things she was unsure when it would come to fruition but we had discussed it and I knew she was on board. I am happy to report I was promoted this week with an amazing raise and with a title even better than I expected. I am absolutely ecstatic and thankful that I have a boss who advocates for her team and shows her appreciation for all the hard work we put in. Happy to report I am the tax manager now.

  94. Lynn Whitehat*

    Hi all! I’m looking for advice.

    I lead a team of software engineers. My project manager is supposed to be telling us what to work on next. He has been totally checked out since Covid began, probably because he has two preschoolers at home. I am very sympathetic! But I also can’t get any clarity about what we should be doing or how. It’s causing us to work on the wrong things, or for projects to take way longer than they need to, because we get halfway through and then realize it’s impossible.

    I try to ask clarifying questions, but he just hand-waves them away, no matter why I am asking the question. “You’re asking us to let customers *email* us broken teapots. OK, email is an electronic medium, and teapots are physical objects. So did you mean postal mail? Or they are emailing a refund request?” “The point is, our customers are asking to email us broken teapots.”

    “You’re asking us to start by showing customers ‘historical as well as modern teapot designs’. Which historical designs?” “All of them.” “Uh, going back to Neolithic-area pottery in Mesopotamia? No, right? Which continent or century or price range should we show to start with?” “Just show it all.” “OK, we don’t actually have all the teapots ever in our system, and if we did it would be too taxing on our customers’ computers to show it all, and if we worked around that 99.99% of it would be useless clutter. So how can we narrow it down?” “The point is, our customers are asking for historical teapot designs.”

    I’m really starting to hate the phrase “the point is”. Like I’m being nit-picky to point out that the request as worded is physically impossible, impractically huge, or illegal. This guy just does not have enough capacity to focus and think to turn customer wishes into something we can actually produce. It’s not his fault, I’m not mad at him. But I need clarity about what we are supposed to be doing. What should I do?

    1. Nacho*

      It sounds like your boss needs you to be more proactive. Instead of saying “did you mean X” say “This is why we can’t do what you asked. This is what I’m going to do instead. Please let me know if you have any questions” That puts the onus on him to tell you you’re doing it wrong, and he probably won’t if your idea is a good one.

      1. pancakes*

        +1. Continuing to press for clarification knowing that it isn’t coming while simultaneously not taking any initiative to sensibly move forward is a great way to drag this out forever and make it as unpleasant as possible for everyone involved.

    2. tangerineRose*

      I’d make my best guess (within reason, don’t sign up for a huge amount of work when that might not be needed) and ask him if that guess is what he wants. Or make a few guesses and ask which he’d prefer. He’s probably going to do better with true/false and multiple choice right now.

    3. RagingADHD*

      It sounds like your design brief process is missing a lot of steps, and is much too vague.

      If you need this information, and it isn’t in the original brief, can you initiate a process to get these specs/answers from the client more or less directly?

      “Okay, great! Here’s a questionnaire for the client to determine which historical periods are most relevant.”

  95. Development professional*

    Ireland/UK friends! What are your best CV templates and advice? I’m trying to convert my US resume for an Ireland-focused job search. I can Google it, but everyone on this site knows there’s a lot of bad advice out there!

    1. BEE*

      You might find that going to Airtasker and searching for someone local within Ireland, who has good feedback, to give your resume a fine-tune is the best way forward.

  96. Taking it higher and higher*

    360 reviews?

    I work for a small non-profit organization with around 40 employees. We are looking into doing 360 reviews, but some departments are 2-3 people–I wouldn’t know how to make it actually anonymous!

    Has anyone experienced a successful 360 review program on such a small scale? Or does anyone want to share their horror stories?

    1. Annony*

      If they really want to do 360 reviews, maybe they should just let people know that it isn’t anonymous. People may not be as candid, but I feel like people are rarely candid anyway.

    2. merope*

      Shouldn’t a 360 review include a sampling of all the areas a contributor interacts with? That is, do the departments only ever provide work for themselves? If not, then you would be certainly able to ask other areas about their work.

  97. MissGirl*

    Anyone got any tips on breaking up the monotony of working from home every single day. I do plenty of personal stuff in the evenings and weekends. It’s just the day in and day out of the same old thing is getting to me. It’s getting really hard to focus and stay awake.

    1. JustaTech*

      Can you add in just a tiny thing to change stuff up? Like, a different flavor of tea? A different pen color or font? A new genre of music, if you listen to music?

    2. WellRed*

      I made sure to get out most days for a short walk. On Friday, packed the work stuff out of sight and opened wine ordered takeout to denote it was the weekend! I also get up earlier to have some quiet time before loggin on. Coffee, paper, aAAM, or just sit quietly.

  98. JustaTech*

    I learned an important thing about myself this week: directly spending the company’s money makes me incredibly, irrationally anxious. Like, dry mouth, shaking hands, increased heart rate.

    Using Concur (for travel expenses in the before times) wipes me out for an hour.

    And now … we are all supposed to do all of our own ordering. Like, find the thing, get a PO, have legal sign off on any terms and conditions or contract, get a quote, order the thing (through whatever convoluted system the supplier uses), then enter the order confirmation and invoice in the weird spreadsheet and remember to email this person when the thing actually arrives.

    Like, I know lots and lots of people do this every day and it’s fine, but I’m terrified. I’m scared that legal and finance and purchasing will find some fault and I’ll “get in trouble” (I don’t even know what that would mean, which is probably why I’m scared of it) or worse, that I won’t get the thing I need on time and my experiment will fail and it will be my fault. It doesn’t help that the current system relies on the end user (me) to remember to follow up with lots of different people over a long time frame to get everything done. If there is one thing I am *terrible* at, it is remembering to follow up on stuff that’s not routine. (Hello ADHD, my old friend.)

    It doesn’t help that when we were doing the training on this the big bosses were clearly mad that we were being asked to do this (because it is way outside our usual scope of work). Or that my super organized coworker who previously did it for my group was the one they chose to lay off. Or that, when I started at the company, we had a whole department that did this stuff, and did it well, but got laid off when we were bought by the Evil Overlords because those guys were cheap AF.

    I wish I could just tell myself that this is an irrational fear and if I make a mistake we can fix it. But then last year I got my head (verbally) bitten off by several senior people for asking what the Pantone color number was for our new company colors, so then I think it might not be an irrational fear.

    1. YouGotThis!*

      That sounds super stressful. Especially given the past evidence that the Overlords DO have the potential to be Evil.

      I can totally see the ADHD part adding to your terror.

      Personally, I would create a new **Physical Object** specifically dedicated to tracking these purchases, because it ups my confidence that I will be able to locate the needed information again! A dedicated clipboard has always been my go-to solution because 1) it is big, and 2) it keeps things pinned in logical chronological order (most recent = on top) unlike a file folder (which, oh god, could fall and get chaos-ified). Plus, 3) pretty color choices! Color coding potential! 4) logical storage for any related paperwork, like receipt printouts or instruction manuals. And 5) logical storage for previous purchases, both completed and still in-process. All pinned together in order, and remarkably loss-resistant! (Other possibilities: gigantic binder clips, or big clear plastic envelopes that snap or velcro closed…)

      Then I would create a one-page checklist to go on your clipboard, with a line for each step of the long-term purchase process. Checklists are soothing to make, and always give me a feeling that ‘this impossible task’ is actually do-able. Leave space to write down the date and who you talked to/emailed for each step– don’t just put a check mark. Then if anyone gets Evil, you have all the relevant data at your fingertips to show that YOU did all your parts accurately.

      (I have also had good luck literally taping a checklist like this to the wall. If your purchases are infrequent, you could tape the checklist to a specific spot on the wall, and put it in a designated file only after every item is completed. Not as suitable if there’s any other related paperwork, but the principle is great for other Things That Must Be Findable)

      So, this is the system that works really well for me. Anytime I feel the “I Am Doomed/Utter Panic” feeling, that’s my clue that I need to set up a Physical Object System– to organize and manage a task with multiple but infrequent steps, that will take months to complete, where the odds of critical pieces of paper getting misplaced (or me forgetting a required future action) are… super inevitable otherwise. Once I notice my panic feeling, and actually create an Organizational Object customized for the problem, it is magically transformative! All the critical things get done and documented, and everything is findable! The horrible panic feeling of doom is gone!

      You will figure out your own perfect “Keep Track Of This” system! Whatever works for you. Some people can do all this in a computer document, which of course takes up less space… That’s not my superpower, though. I’ve heard “out of sight, out of mind” is an ADHD ‘thing’– I personally need a physical object taking up space in my world in order for me to stay on top of it.

      You just haven’t yet invented the right system for you, but you can do that now. Good luck!

      1. JustaTech*

        That’s a brilliant idea, thank you!

        Part of what freaks me out about this stuff is that all the people I’ve known who have done it well have been ferociously organized. While I’ve picked up a few tricks (if you have to call and talk to people, ask them how to spell their name so you 1) get it down right and 2) they know you’re taking notes), I know I’m not nearly as good as them yet. And I know the only way to get good is to practice.

  99. NeonDreams*

    Ugh health insurance call center work is so exhausting. I have to bear the brunt of everyone else’s frustration on top of my own. It makes me so tired but I don’t have the energy to full-on job search.

    (Sigh) just needed to vent.

    1. JustaTech*

      I’m sorry.
      If it makes you feel better, some of the best people I have ever worked with from a call center were from my dental insurance. There was a billing problem and every single person I talked to was kind, straightforward, and helpful. They all genuinely wanted to help, and they were all very clear where their ability fix things ended. It took the better part of a year to get straightened out, but I was never mad because I knew that the people there really were trying. And it took such a load off my mind.

      All of which is to say, you are really helping, even if the people you talk to don’t see it and thank you.

    2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I seriously still have lingering mental health effects from working in a health insurance call center and I left that job in 1999. It’s a really stressful environment and probably way worse now than it was then. Hopefully you can find better stress relief than I did.

  100. Llama Tap Dancing Enthusiast*

    In the past few years I have gotten very into a hobby — let’s say it’s teaching my llamas how to tap dance — including joining the online llama tap dancing community and using social media to connect with my friends from llama tap dancing meets. If you Google my name, it’s not that hard to find my llama tap dancing accounts. I am preparing to job hunt and knowing that potential employers might look at these accounts has motivated me to clean them up. Most of what I post is about the llama tap dancing hobby so I think it wouldn’t raise any red flags, but I am erring on the side of caution and would appreciate any insight into how employers evaluate the internet presence of potential employees.

    So far, I’ve deleted everything from the past year that has to do with politics/politically charged current events, everything with “NSFW” humor, everything that mentioned past jobs/work in general in a negative light, and just anything I think is too personal for a potential employer to see.

    I’m not sure what else needs to go and I find myself second-guessing each post, because I act differently at work vs. with my llama tap dancing friends. Like on my llama tap dancing accounts there’s some venting and negativity (ex: about COVID-19 cancelling all our llama tap dancing meets), as well as self-depreciating and sarcastic humor which isn’t how I behave at work, so I’m not sure if it should be deleted. I’m also not sure where to draw the “politics” line–like I deleted everything regarding my feelings about the upcoming US election, but I’m not sure if things like “pro-BLM statement from the llama tap dancing club” or “fundraiser to get LGBTQ youth to llama tap dancing competitions” cross the line. All kinds of questions are swirling around in my head–how far back/deep will an employer dig? Do I need to worry about things posted years ago, twitter likes, instagram follows? If I set my accounts to private on sites that allow it will it look suspicious? I would appreciate any advice about what employers consider red flags online!

    1. Meg*

      I don’t think you need to worry about someone digging way into your social media archives. Maybe they will do a quick search of you and see what is interesting in the first page or two of results, but I doubt they have the time or interest to proceed beyond that unless they see something really out there that makes them want to probe more deeply. You could always go private if you prefer, and I don’t think that looks shady at all—lots of people use social media to connect just with friends and family,

      I personally would not remove things like support for BLM or LGBTQIAGNC because I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that didn’t take support for equality as a given. But I don’t want to assume that everyone else has the privilege of ruling out entire organizations or regions of the country.

      Good luck in your job search!

  101. MiserableMuse*

    On the back of yesterday’s millennial burn out discussion – what do you even do when your dream job is making you sad?

    So I work in a museum, an industry which has just gotten flattened by COVID, but overall my particular museum is doing very well during closure, and all staff has managed to keep our jobs. I also go to grad school full time while working full time and my boss is very flexible about me taking classes and making up hours on the weekends if need be. I’m in an intense role, and generally go through cycles of burn out every year when our busy season ramps up (even during COVID!). Overall, I have a pretty sweet gig and I’m grateful – but I’m in my sixth year of working for the museum, and I’m still hourly making around $35K a year. A friend who works in the corporate world just texted me saying after a year of work she’s now salaried with an $18K raise. I’m having a bit of a crisis, because admittedly I am burned out and miserable and now wondering if it’s even worth it to have what was once my “dream” job.

    I don’t know who I am if I don’t work for a museum. I made a gigantic career & academic discipline switch in order to luck my way into a job people dream about having when they’re kids. But I’m having fantasies about just running away after I get my masters degree. There are other factors involved (including a not ideal living situation in a location I hate), but I also feel overwhelming guilt when I think about telling my boss, who is sort of my mentor and has invested a lot in my career, in addition to keeping me fully employed during a pandemic, that I’m moving on.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just because in THEORY a job is a “dream” doesn’t mean that living it is a dream. My example is that I am an animal enthusiast and I donate a lot of my expendable income to animal sanctuaries. Life is SO MUCH nicer when you work what may be a mundane but fulling enough job and make that corporate level cash to then give back to your “passions”. Then I can enjoy the museums and sanctuary style learning zoos/aquariums.

      Some people can be perfectly happy with their 35k a year honestly but it’s not for everyone.

      Just like a nun or a priest, low paying [in in that case, literally vowing poverty] is a calling. It’s okay to be called to earn money and the “high life” of you know, not struggling and stressing all the time.

      You can be grateful to have had the chance to work somewhere and learn it’s not for you as well. So if you do want to change, it’s not anything to be ashamed of. You didn’t do anything wrong.

      Being miserable in your art/passion is so overrated but a frequent tune you hear among the folks who are in that career path. I don’t think you can fix it without changing your comfort level, accepting it and embracing it or really, working to find a way to have a new “reinvented” and second career path if possible.

    2. MissGirl*

      Quitting my “dream” industry was the best decision I ever made. I enjoy the new work just as much and make almost 3xs more. I had to figure out what nuts and bolts I enjoyed about my work and how to transfer that to a new career. I now own my own home, a reliable car, and can travel.

    3. 76567567*

      I got my “dream job” and realized shortly after that its problems ran so deep it ran me out of the industry (misogyny, intense environmental impact, dangerous). It took me several years to accept that I couldn’t stay in that industry, all while I continued to work in it. Now that I’ve left I’ve considered going back some day. Just remember you can always go back – you aren’t stuck where you are now and won’t be stuck at a new job either.

    4. Yes Anastasia*

      It’s okay not to stay in the same career your entire life. If you switch careers, it doesn’t mean your first career didn’t have value, or is no longer a meaningful part of your identity. We contain multitudes!

      Re: guilt, consider that if you decide to make this transition, you’ll be opening up a coveted position for someone else. While your workplace will be losing your unique talents and skills, it’s not like there’s a shortage of passionate museum workers willing to work for relatively little money.

    5. sally*

      Guilt about leaving is ALWAYS misguided. Well-intentioned, but misguided. Mentoring someone does not mean indenturing them to you for life – that’s not what you signed up for, and that’s not what your boss signed up for. People are expected to do different things in their careers and move on. And every mentor, manager and employer expects to have to deal with losing a good employee now and then, even in “dream” industries.

      It’s one thing to decide you want to stay for yourself. But don’t stay for your boss’s sake! To make that decision is to give that person no credit, to assume they can’t possibly recover without you. They can and they will, and if they’re worth one iota as a mentor they’ll be happy for you. And as a previous commenter mentioned, you know they’ll be flooded with qualified applicants, so no worries there. Give yourself permission to do the right thing for you.

    6. ronda*

      what does your boss say about a raise?
      if you love where you are … just not the money, check on that first.

      If it is not possible, start looking for what will give you the money you want.

  102. Issue I've Never Had Before*

    So this is the second time I’ve run into this problem and I’m still not entirely sure how to handle it. In the past I ran a college department and had students who mistakenly believed I was also a student. This seemed to make them feel more comfortable giving me advice about how to run this department. And while I’m always open to new ideas, many of their ideas were based on their limited knowledge of the field and the inner workings of the college and department, and their limited work experience.

    Currently, I have a new employee I did not have any say in hiring. She seems to believe we are peers. When I give her assignments/work to do, she has lots of ideas about what to do. But my assigning her work and explaining the project is not an invitation for collaboration. She is a very entry-level employee and is continually referencing her student work or work in other fields. I’ve had to reiterate what I want from her and that any suggestions she has would be best held until the initial data is gathered and that any decisions on what to do with the data will be mine.

    She has most recently joined a workshop I facilitate and after her first meeting, she came to me during work hours to make suggestions about how it should be run and what should be included in it. I said “mm” a lot and said “maybe,” which I know wasn’t straightforward enough. I appreciate that she is young and full of ideas but this is my class, I determine the content, and I determine how it is run.

    I feel as if I have to please the people who did hire her and that I have less say in managing her because I did not hire her personally. I want to be kind and not crush her dreams, but also be firm that she needs to step back and just do her job first, before clamoring for more responsibility or input. Any advice (even if that advice is that I’m being stodgy and old-school about hierarchy)?

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      You’d be doing your employee a kindness by correcting her misapprehension that she’s your peer. And the people who hired her should have made that clear at the outset, as they made it clear to you (or is there a possibility that you’re the one who’s wrong there?). If she’s been assigned to you as your employee, you get to manage her.

      I don’t know where “crush her dreams” comes from. There’s a middle ground of listening to her without feeling bossed around by her. It’s fine to say, “I’ve already set this up the way I like it, but if you want to send me an email with all your thoughts and ideas, I’m happy to take them into consideration when I design next year’s workshop. In the meantime, how’s [her actual job responsibility] coming along?”

      It sounds like you’re very anxious about whether you’re allowed to have boundaries and how other people will feel about you setting boundaries. I’m also seeing you interpreting her sharing her ideas as “clamoring”, which seems a little unfair. The more secure you feel in your own job and its delineations, the more smoothly and easily you’ll be able to correct other people’s misapprehensions and keep your employee on track while making room for her to be creative and engaged.

      1. Issue I've Never Had Before*

        We were hired around the same time and she had initially applied for my position, which I think is adding to the confusion or misunderstanding on her end. I do feel concerned that setting boundaries will upset the hiring director. She has told me to assert a management relationship with this employee and that officially she is my assistant, but she has also been encouraging when the employee goes directly to her with suggestions.

        I do see what you’re saying about my interpretations. It is unfair, as I truly believe she is just excited. I think I have been struggling to come up with ways to express that many of her ideas are things already in the works or just outside of the duties of the position she was hired for. I guess there’s nothing to say she couldn’t take on these responsibilities, but I’d really like to see her actually complete the work I’ve given her first. I think your script above would definitely help in this particular situation.

    2. tangerineRose*

      Can you talk to the people who did hire her about how to handle this? You might want to say something like “I know you’re new to the working world, so I want to talk to you about how you take assignments. You’re spending a lot of time trying to direct assignments. You are not in charge here. If there’s an issue with what I’m asking, let me know, but right now you are taking up much too much time with your suggestions. Gather the initial data, and then you can make some suggestions.”

      I’d also suggest that she makes the suggestions in writing and maybe add some steps that will make it easier for you to glance over them quickly. If it takes her more time and you less time for the suggestions, that should cut down on them.

      1. Issue I've Never Had Before*

        The director has told me to assert a managerial relationship with her so I would think she has my back if I use your script on clarifying the employe’s role. I think the only thing that is a sticking point for me is that the director has encouraged the employee’s suggestions – using the submit-it-to-me-in-writing idea – which has now led to the employee focusing on these submissions rather than the concrete, currently in progress work that I’ve assigned.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          “So, listen. I think it’s great that you’re full of ideas, but right now you’re spending a lot of time coming up with suggestions and it’s detracting from the work I need you to be doing. I need you to focus on the TPS reports right now.”

        2. MacGillicuddy*

          You are her manager, and the hiring manager wants you to “assert a managerial relationship with her”. Here’s what I hear that to mean: “You ARE her manager, so start acting like it”.

          It sounds like you are afraid to be this person’s manager. You said “ I feel as if I have to please the people who did hire her and that I have less say in managing her because I did not hire her personally.”. This is not logical. Why would the hiring people think you have no right to manage this person? Unless it’s a case of “I was forced to hire the boss’s lazy nephew”, but it doesn’t sound like it.

          What you describe is a much larger issue than this person who reports to you. The fact that students think you’re another student when you’re actually the person who runs the department (!!!) is another manifestation of this bigger issue.

          You need to convince yourself that you are actually this person’s manager, and that you are actually the head of the department you run. But I’m not sure you can do either of these things unless and until you first figure out why you are so fearful of not pleasing people. You’re so afraid that you’re basically letting everyone run all over you.

          It sounds like you are overcome with fear. You’re afraid of displeasing your director, even though she told you to assert a managerial role with your report. You’re afraid of being direct with your report (“crush her dreams” is way over the top), even though you’re doing both of you a disservice by not being clear about her responsibilities.

          I don’t know if this a case of imposter syndrome run amok, but I think you should consider counseling to find out why you are so afraid of asserting yourself in all of these situations.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Sounds like you might need to use more management-speak. “Mmm” and “maybe” (as you know now) are only encouraging her. I’d try things like:

      I appreciate your thoughts, but right now I need you to do the assignment as is.
      I’m not actually looking for input on that workshop right now, but I hope you’ll fill out an evaluation when it’s over.
      Please stop by my office/desk when you have a chance (instead of going to her area to give her an assignment, or phrasing it as a question)

      Is she the only person you manage?

  103. CS Major*

    Hello, I was wondering if anyone could give me some insight.
    I’m currently a sophomore in college studying computer science, and I am struggling a bit in some of my classes. I was wondering, for employers looking for developers and such, how important is your GPA and your overall grades in college?

    1. H.C.*

      It depends considerably on any outside work experiences & projects you’ve got going on (and probably more so than other majors/career fields.) The more of those you have (w accomplishments to showcase), the less your GPA will factor in for your candidacy.

    2. tangerineRose*

      I know some employers care about this for CS, but I doubt all of them care that much.

      Does your college have tutoring? The college I went to had free tutoring and a mathematics lab, both of which were extremely helpful sometimes. I found that sometimes I just had to take fewer classes – sometimes colleges seem to push students to take a heavy load, but 12-14 credits can be a LOT, depending on the classes.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’m a software developer, and while I’m not the hiring manager, I have assisted in hiring from the technical expert point of view. For what we’re doing, I’d say experience is more important than GPA. Sophomore year is a great point in your education to be looking into co-op and internship opportunities*, which will give you both practical experience and a better idea of what kinds of jobs you do (or don’t) want to take after you graduate.

      This is not to say GPA is not important! As I believe Alison has mentioned before, it can be used for new graduates as a proxy for what an employer can expect out of them (since new grads often don’t have work experience in their field). And there are some jobs that are so wildly popular (either because of what you’d be doing or who you’d be doing it for) that employers will screen out candidates who don’t meet some arbitrary minimum GPA just to reduce the number of applicants they have to look at.

      However, if you’re doing better in your classes for your major than you are overall, you can absolutely list your major GPA along with your overall GPA. But don’t drop the overall GPA – either list both, or just the overall GPA.

      *For those of you in other fields, engineering and comp-sci co-op jobs and internships are assumed to be paid work (often pretty good pay for someone still in college). An unpaid one is so rare as to be a red flag worth reporting to whoever is in charge of the college’s co-op program.

  104. Environmental Compliance*

    Hubs had a great interview this past week, and was told that sometime next week they’d contact him to set up Round 2. They called him today to set up an interview for next week! I’m excited for him!

    I also found out that one of my coworkers, after another person had brought them lunch *for weeks straight*, found out Lovely Lunch Person was into witchcraft, and decided that Person was 1) going to poison them because 2) WITCHES. Said coworker is also really into astrology. I am hugely entertained for so, so many reasons, including that 1) Person was lovely enough to bring them lunch! For free! 2) Black magic is one of many occupational hazards (which is a statement I never thought I’d actually get to use) 3) Why in the world would you judge someone for witchy leanings and then really lean so hard on astrology?

  105. Rocket Surgeon*

    Question about taxes! If I am an unpaid consultant to a foreign company or university, and they pay for my airfare, lodging and food, are these considered taxable income in the U.S.? If in the U.S., I think these wouldn’t be taxable, as they are reimbursement for expenses. Anyone have experience with this scenario?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Those expenses are on THEIR books and business expenses, not on you to pay taxes for.

      If I refund business expenses to an employee, it’s under “non-taxable” in our payroll system because it’s just giving them their money back, it was a loan on their part not income.

      Even if it’s a per-diem and you don’t necessarily get reimbursed by the receipts themselves. They just have to be within that per-diem daily allowance for your area that is being traveled to. [So if they say give you $50 a day for food and incidentals, instead of having you submit receipts, that’s OK but there’s rules about how much that per diem can be, it’s based on the area and foreign/domestic status.]

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Hmmm I’m going down a rabbit hole and there’s some skepticalness on my side now. You say you’re an unpaid consultant? So you’re not an employee and it gets muddy…

  106. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

    Not really looking for advice, just a space place to vent. (Mainly because I know the only solution is to get a new job.)

    Things have been tense at my work lately. Lots of pressure from our board and our members, lots of frustration due to a total lack of leadership from our ED, lots of anxiety on my part because I’m worried that people might be frustrated with me, too, but not vocalizing it.
    Our Executive Director called our totally overworked and stretched-to-the-bones IT Manager and asked how he was doing.
    IT Manager: I’m ready to quit.
    ED: Welcome to the club.
    ED moved right along in the conversation and didn’t ask why the IT Manager was ready to hand in his resignation, or try to come up with solutions to make IT Manager’s job/life easier.

    Fast forward to today, when I told the same ED to check in and told him that I was very upset with our board president, who totally blindsided me during our most recent board meeting by adding an item to the agenda right before the board meeting. The agenda item is something that falls under my scope of responsibility, and I’ve actually had it done for months, but our ED hasn’t done anything with it. Board president says this product has to be approved by the board (it doesn’t) and wanted to know why it wasn’t included in the board packet. ED tells me not to worry about it and then says, “How do you think I feel, he blindsides me all the time and is always breathing down my neck about what I’m supposed to do.” I just wanted to scream I DON’T CARE. He’s getting paid like 27% more than me, his job means he has to deal directly with the board, and I really don’t care how difficult they are with him because his job as our executive director is to manage and lead the staff. I shouldn’t be receiving work assignments from a board president, and our executive director should be doing his flipping job.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Wow, how tacky and unimpressive that ED is. I’m sorry that this person is impossible and so…unaware.

      I feel like Rule 3 of being A Boss means that you don’t get to complain about your boss problems with your staff because as you know, it’s not their GD problem!!!

  107. LizardBrain*

    I am a team lead for a team that has what is going to be a serious issue when we’re back at the office. One team member, Cecil, had an affair with Lucy’s husband. Lucy and her husband are getting a divorce, but things have been slowed down due to Covid. We’re going to end up back in the office eventually, as, at best, 50% of our work can be done from home. The problem is that Lucy has made it clear that she does not want to work with Cecil anymore, which is understandable in my opinion. This hasn’t been a problem while working remotely, but will be once we’re back in the office.

    The only way to ensure Lucy and Cecil don’t work together is to transfer one of them to a different team, or even department. The problem is that there are no openings, there may be in the future, but right now we are on a hiring freeze. My boss and I discussed the possibility of doing a swap with another team once we’re back, but that would be contingent on another individual and team-lead being ok with it.

    To further complicate matters, our HR manager has said that in the event we go for a team swap, we will have to transfer Lucy, they are worried that it will look like we are discriminating against Cecil for being gay and that he could sue us if we transferred him over this. Personally, I don’t think it’s fair that Lucy should have to leave a team she’s been on longer because of the poor choices Cecil and her husband made.

    I know the company probably needs to consult an attorney, but I’m curious as to what the AAM audience thinks.

    1. Random Commenter*

      That sounds like a classic case of overly paranoid HR making decisions actually seeking legal advice.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Couldn’t transferring Lucy look like discrimination against her because she’s a woman?

        I would think most people would understand why someone wouldn’t want to work with someone who their spouse had cheated on them with.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Lucy is the one who said she doesn’t want to work with Cecil, so why would it be discriminatory to move her out of Cecil’s team?

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Oof, that sucks. But to me, if Lucy says “I can’t work with Cecil anymore,” then the appropriate response is “Okay, we’ll d our best to work with HR to get you a transfer.” There’s been letters before debating whether it’s appropriate to let people dictate whether their peers get fired (or transferred or whatever), and the general consensus (as I recall) has been no, not really.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I agree. If Lucy’s husband didn’t work there, Cecil hasn’t done anything wrong as far as work is concerned. Lucy is the one requesting they not work together, so Lucy should be the one who moves. (And even if Lucy’s husband *did* work there, Cecil’s relationship with him didn’t necessarily break any rules.)

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Also, any swap with another team needs to not settle for “they’re okay with it.” Whoever gets moved needs to actually be enthusiastic about it. I have all the sympathy for Lucy, but if you’re worried about unfairness to her, think about the unfairness to someone on an entirely different team who gets moved just because they didn’t protest hard enough.

          1. LizardBrain*

            I agree, and we won’t move anyone against their will. My hope, and the hope of my boss, is that the hiring freeze will be lifted before, or shortly after we return to the office, and a position that one of them would like to transfer to, and are qualified for, will open up organically. We’re trying to find a contingency if that doesn’t happen, and have it set-up so we’re not scrambling for a solution in a couple months.

        2. LizardBrain*

          Lucy has said that she ok with being moved if that’s what it takes, but I know she likes her work and like the team she works with, it’s just that right now there is nowhere to move either of them without a third person also having to move. But if a position better suited to Cecil than to Lucy were to open up, it would make more sense to transfer him. HR is saying that if anyone moves it MUST be Lucy, regardless of whether the new position would be a good fit.

          I will admit to being more sympathetic to Lucy’s situation, she’s already having to get a divorce, I hate to see her have to give up a position she’s happy in as well. Something I didn’t mention in the original post is that the rest of the team is none to thrilled with Cecil either, they were a pretty tight-knit group before this, including Cecil. No one is refusing to work with him, but I don’t think the dynamic is going to be the same and I don’t want future trouble because they freeze Cecil out socially.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            But if a position better suited to Cecil than to Lucy were to open up, it would make more sense to transfer him.

            No, it wouldn’t. If there’s another team that’s so much more suited to him that you’d transfer him regardless of who he slept with, yes. But that’s not what happened here. You’re considering transferring him because someone else on his team doesn’t want to work with him. You can’t move people around because they aren’t friends with their coworkers and aren’t going to socialize with them. That’s so, so very inappropriate.

          2. allathian*

            If they freeze Cecil out socially while being perfectly professional with him otherwise, this might just be what it takes for Cecil to ask for a transfer to another team. Then all it takes is for someone from another team who is doing a job Cecil could also do who would be willing to switch jobs and permitted to do so by their supervisor. Obviously, it would not be appropriate for the team to refuse to work with Cecil.

            Open relationships are something else entirely, but I think that being frozen out of social interactions is an entirely appropriate consequence for adultery, when the person who was cheated on is a part of your social circle. I’m not saying that a cheater doesn’t deserve to have any friends, just that they should not expect anything other than the cold shoulder from people who know and care about the person who was cheated on. The fact that Cecil is gay is only an issue as far as the potential for accusations of discrimination goes. I would feel just as strongly if Cecil had been a Cecilia instead (Lucy might feel differently, though, if she had no idea her husband was at least interested in exploring his sexuality by having sex with another man).

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Lucy asked for an accommodation for a personal issue with Cecil, so the appropriate thing to do would be to wait and see what options were open. If it’s something better suited for Cecil, he should be ASKED if he’d accept the transfer. Then he gets to say “Sure” or “no, I like it where I am.” If he says now, then the other option is then to just move Lucy over because she wants it and has made a reasonable request that is now able to be accommodated.

      Your HR isn’t completely unfounded by their worry that forcing a transfer could be an issue but it would depend on a lot of other things that are going on within the organization. They would have to have a PATTERN of discrimination to have a lawsuit brought against them. You seriously can’t just say “You are moving be only because I’m gay!” or “Because I’m a woman” or “Because I’m from Mars.” etc. You have to prove it. What is the pattern of discrimination? Do all the gay people get moved when someone complains about them having affairs with their spouses?

      It has nothing to do with his sexual orientation and would be absolutely near impossible to say it does that would make a discrimination suit stick. Unless of course, the company has had issues in the past by removing the gay person from the situation, then yeah, the organization would be at fault for letting that pattern form!

      I have hired people who I later found out had an affair with someone already employed there spouses. That was a shock to find out but they worked together anyways. I feel for Lucy and it sucks but she really should only be accommodated if and when it’s possible. What happens when she still has to see Cecil at company events? Are you going to ask Cecil not to attend? What’s going to happen if Cecil’s affair turns into a relationship and Cecil wants to bring his partner to the company Christmas party? *head tilt* I’m just saying, you’re opening up a box of “Uh damn it…this went way sideways AF” when you start accommodating such deeply personal issues.

      You usually only start moving people around when someone is alleging harassment and when it’s under investigation. Or you’re setting a precedent you may not want to set.

    4. LizardBrain*

      My boss is trying to get the higherups to consult with an attorney before we do anything, but they’re dragging their feet hoping the situation resolves itself, I don’t know what they think that would look like, but I don’t see Lucy forgiving Cecil or either one quitting, so I think their hopes are going to be dashed.

      Honestly, as team leader I have no actual authority to make a decision. My boss and grandboss, the assistant department manager and department manager respectively, get that fun task. But both my boss and I are avid readers of AAM and thought we might see if anyone had another option we hadn’t thought of. I drew the short straw and got to ask the question.

  108. YetAnotherAnalyst*

    We’re getting bought, and I’m slightly terrified. There have been a lot of noises about how nothing will really change, but that seems unlikely. This isn’t a process I’ve been through before, and I’ve got a million questions, but they all really boil down to two things –
    A) How much effort should I be putting into looking for a new job, on a scale from “just enough to remind you you’ve got options” to “be ready to leave as soon as the deal closes”?
    B) My work history is a succession of jobs that each pay better than the last, but serve society less. I’ve sort of managed to convince myself to care about each of them anyway by thinking about who the job *does* serve, and finding a way that it Matters. We’re getting bought by a megacorporation, though, and all I’ve got is that I’ll be further enriching some of the wealthiest people in the world. Late-stage capitalism sucks. How do I make myself actually work each day when it’s just going in a Scrooge McDuck-style pile of wealth?

    1. tangerineRose*

      A. I’ve been through several of those things. Each time, except the last time, it wasn’t a huge deal (although it was rarely an improvement). Sometimes there was slightly less PTO time or more classes (in stuff we mostly didn’t need) to take. The last time, it was very clear the new management wanted most of the current staff to leave, and we did.
      I’d suggest at a minimum updating your resume, making sure you’re linked to plenty of good people on LinkedIn who can say good things about your work, and maybe doing a little searching.
      B. Does the megacorp do anything good for society that you can feel a part of? If not, maybe you should start looking for a different job anyway. “My company’s getting bought, and I thought this would be a good time to start looking around” seems like a great reason to explain why you’re looking for a new job.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      A) – depends on how ‘key’ you are likely to be to the transition and/or to the new company as a whole.

      If you are in a role likely to be consolidated into the acquiring company’s existing department I’d be inclined to start looking now unless there are un-give-up-able benefits ahead of you (stock options and things like that) (for comparison, I gave up $30,000 I would have been paid with severance, vested stock options etc in order to leave ahead of time, and it was the right decision, but it wouldn’t be right for everyone) (8-9/10 on your scale)

      If you see yourself as ‘key’ stick around and try to negotiate a retention bonus if you are still there in, say, January 2022. (2-3/10)

      If you’re somewhere in between … keep your mind and your inbox open. Start applying but don’t necessarily jump at the first thing. (6/10)

    3. ronda*

      you generally dont leave immediately….. it usually takes some time for them to figure out how they might be restructuring the business. But do start getting ready to leave… in case they move faster than you expect.

      Then it depends on what kind of merger this is.

      my sisters company was bought by berkshire hathaway and there was not much change. I think because they are a big holding company and probably did not have a similar company they wanted them to merge operations with.

      2 mergers I have been at have been industry competitors of about equal size, and eventually they got rid of about half the people, cause mostly duplicate efforts at each company and pretty much all functions being merged. (took many months to transition, not many years — but different areas might be on different timelines)

  109. Anonnynonnon*

    I’m about a third of the way into a career in government (as in, i have about twice again as many years to work until I hit retirement age as I’ve already put in), and I’m deeply questioning whether it’s what I want to do for another 20+ years. I had a revelation as I was typing a bunch of stuff here I’ve deleted, so I guess I’m most curious: For those who have made the public-to-private sector transition, what were the biggest adjustments you had to make and what were the biggest challenges you faced in making the move? I’m in a mid-sized city, but we’re not that far from a large, fast-growing metropolitan area, so I’m hoping to find something that wouldn’t require uprooting the family.

  110. Whereto From Here Fran*

    My job is going fine, I’m working on a Big Project, but the leaders plan to hand off the Big Project later to a different dept. This is the best thing I’m good at in this job–what else do I do if I don’t have Big Project? Also, I’m trying to apply to jobs with my creds (2 masters, 1 certification) and I could only find one job out of hundreds where I 1. Loved the company and 2. Had a chance of a higher salary and 3. Close to met the credentials.

    Tl;dr: I have a job, but feel stagnant and unemployable outside my own job. How do I deal?

    1. Annony*

      You may want to loosen your criteria. Applying to jobs that you do not already love the company can be a good thing. It is hard to tell before interacting whether it is somewhere you would be happy. Just so long as you don’t hate the company, go ahead and apply! If you get an interview you can test the waters and see if your first impression was wrong.

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      “What else do I do if I don’t have Big Project?” is a great thing to ask your manager. They may have something exciting in mind for you. They may not have thought about how central Big Project is to your work identity. If you like everything else at your current job, give them a chance to keep you.

      And I agree with Annony that you need to loosen your criteria for other prospective jobs. Already loving the company is a high bar! Give companies you’ve never even heard of the opportunity to win you over.

      If you have a mentor in your field, they might be able to steer you toward jobs and companies that care more about work experience than credentials. I assume you’re doing something very specialized if two master’s degrees isn’t enough, so generic advice is probably not useful.

  111. TurkeyLurkey*

    Advice or resources for writing job descriptions?
    For the last year, I’ve been in a jack-of-all trades type position that grew around me. It’s time for me to update my generic placeholder job description. I’ve started by writing up my key accomplishments for the year, organized into the three categories that make up the bulk of my responsibilities.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Look up job ads for positions similar to yours, and base the description on that. Let other people do the work for you. :)

      1. Uranus Wars*

        This is what I was going to suggest! I did this recently and it helped me a ton – I didn’t use their descriptions verbatim but it got my gears going and made things much easier.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you’re on the right track, you want to keep it somewhat narrow. Imagine it as a job ad instead of a resume with accomplishments.

    3. TurkeyLurkey*

      Thanks, all! Part of my trouble is that we’re also working on finalizing the job title, but I’ll see what I can turn up on the various options.

  112. amelia shepherd*

    this is going to sound really petty, but…. how do those of you who also work nights and weekends… cope? i’m a librarian and work several nights and quite a few weekends, but it seems like the world is geared towards people who work 9-5 monday-friday. it kinda bums me out when people are like “can’t wait until 5” or “thank god it’s friday.” i’m a little bitter, not gonna lie, i’d love to never have to work a weekend again (nights aren’t as bad but still), but alas, such is the life of a public librarian.

    1. an academic librarian*

      My past job required evenings & Saturdays on rotation; the days I worked the evening reference shift I let myself buy dinner out (my one takeout meal per week), and I tried to schedule something fun in the morning before I went in so it would still feel like I had part of the day for me. Usually that meant a long walk or visiting a friend with small kids. Also one thing that helped me was having at least one or two friends who also had alternate work schedules, and sometimes our availability matched up on a random Thursday morning to meet up.

      I also looked specifically for a new job that didn’t have evenings & Saturdays. Not an option for everyone, I know, and I’m thankful that it worked out for me. I went from a federal job to an academic job.

      1. amelia shepherd*

        i like the idea of kind of treating myself! and i’m job-hunting right now and looking for jobs that don’t require as many nights and weekends (because i know that i’ll never be able to escape nights and weekends unless i’m a manager and no thank you) – one night a week and a weekend a month is about the most i can mentally handle. because right now i work at least two nights a week (sometimes more) and three saturdays and one sunday a month, between my two jobs. it is… not great.

    2. introverted af*

      I feel this. My previous job I worked at a visitors center as part of a local tourist agency, which was not 9-5 during the week and included a couple weekends a month. It was not great for me, but the longer it went on and the more my coworkers just…lived a more consistent 9-5 weekdays only schedule, the more jealous I got. I tried to make the best of it for the time I was there, focused on enjoying my later start to the day, the weekdays I got off after I worked a weekend that allowed me to schedule appointments and run errands with less traffic…but it just didn’t work for me. Part of it was also that I just didn’t like the customer service tasks that were becoming a larger part of my job, but I moved on from the role because it just wasn’t the right fit anymore.

      1. amelia shepherd*

        i’m glad i’m not alone and that you found something else! i’m debating getting out of public libraries into something that doesn’t require as many nights and weekends, or none at all but it’s hard. i’d take a job even if it was only one night a week and maybe one weekend a month.

    3. tangerineRose*

      If working on weekends mean you have a day or 2 off during M-F, that has some advantages. Doctor appointments, DMV, etc. Also, if you like going to amusement parks, zoos, gardens, they’re frequently less crowded during M-F.

      1. amelia shepherd*

        once i find something that’s full-time, if i have to work a weekend, i’d get a day off during the week, which will make the weekends a little easier to bear and i can do all the stuff you mentioned if i want. but right now i don’t, because i work two part-time jobs and am working almost every day of the month. they’re not all 8 hour days, thank god, but it’s still a lot.

    4. anon24*

      I work a job where my “week” is 2 weeks long with an 8 day work week (80+ hours, 40 hours in 4 days in each actual week so it still works with OT regulations) and a 6 day “weekend”. This also means that I work 12 hour shifts every other weekend.

      I love it! I never want to go back to the 9-5 grind. Its exhausting at first, adjusting your body to working all those hours in one run without a break but then it feels like I get a vacation every 2 weeks where I get to decompress and do whatever I want (go hiking, take classes, clean my house, or just sleep all day).

  113. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    My job has become toxic for me and I’ve decided, after much agonizing, to quit. I sent out three applications last night, using everything I’ve learned from AAM about cover letters and resumes. I’m working my contacts (and have more and more relevant ones than I thought I did); one of them had just hired someone else and sounded frustrated that she’d missed out on the chance to hire me, which was flattering. I’ve reached the point where I’ll do just about anything that isn’t this, but there do seem to be a fair number of opportunities out there that would suit me, so ideally this process won’t take too long.

    My partners have both clearly and compassionately said that if I need to just quit right now without something else lined up, they’ll support me in that. But I’m hoping it doesn’t come to that.

    1. Uranus Wars*

      Good luck with your other two applications; I am glad you have the support of people around you to do what is healthy for you! Can you ask the hiring manager that you did speak to if there were any other opportunities in their org if she knew of any similar opportunities in her network? Not to use her as a referral, but as a way to find other places to apply?

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Yes, she actually immediately offered to recommend me to someone else, it was very nice!

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I hope you truly consider quitting without something lined up as a viable option. I’m not saying you should quit your job right now, just to truly accept that it would be ok to do it. I stayed at a toxic job long after my partner encouraged me to quit because I (mistakenly) believed that it was Wrong to leave a job without anything lined up, that it would “ruin” me. But what was really ruining me was working 12-14 hour days, crying constantly, and puking daily from stress. Once I quit I felt so free and was able to see how much my toxic job had taken over my life. I was also able to actually focus on getting a new job, and one that fit right as opposed to the first thing I was offered.

      And maybe your job isn’t toxic in all-consuming way (I hope not!), but knowing that you could walk away at any moment can be really freeing and help you get through the day.

      Good luck, I hope you find something new soon!

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Thank you for this encouragement. Many years ago, I jumped out of a job with only vague plans to freelance, and it worked out extremely well, so I’m confident that I could do something similar if I needed to. However, I have a young child who needs specialized care, so we’d really prefer for our household income not to take a hit if at all possible.

        My job isn’t toxic, it’s just… not great. I’ve been in work situations where there was no question that the best thing for my mental health was to leave immediately. This is more like the beer and potato chip diet of jobs. You can’t live on it forever, but you can stand it for a couple more weeks if you have to.

  114. Nervous Ask*

    Does anyone have advice on asking current and former supervisors for graduate school recommendations?
    Or have you been asked and have any advice on what you would have liked to see or how I should phrase it?

    The degree is related to my job and will hopefully help me advance in my career, if that changes things. It’s also for programs geared toward professionals so that you can keep working while getting the degree.

    1. Lifelong student*

      The advice I have always given is not to do grad work at the same school as your undergrad so you get different viewpoints from professors. This might not be true at a very large institution with a grad program which does not use the same professors as the undergrad program- but at a small school some teach in both programs.

    2. Reba*

      Be ready to quickly provide everything that they need to do it — links, your resume, application essay or whatever, and a list of what key points you would hope they would speak to in the letter. But also ask (politely) if they would be willing to write a strong letter for you. Basically make it clear you don’t presume it is a yes, but if it is a yes, you have it right there for them.

      I (as a recommender for undergrads and interns) always like to have a chat with the person, so maybe offer that, too. A call or go for a coffee if that’s ok in your area.

      1. Nervous Ask*

        Thank you! That’s great advice. Luckily the school provides a recommendation form to make it easier to write

    3. pancakes*

      I’ve seen a number of profs talking about this on Twitter this week — search the platform for “grad school letter tips.” (Doesn’t have to be in quotes).

  115. Fact & Fiction*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    I lurk much more than I comment, but I wanted to share my good news to give people who take pay cuts to switch career tracks a little hope. In my previous professional life, I worked as a paralegal. The kind of work I fell into at the firm I worked at just wasn’t where my heart was, and it became pretty stressful. I was fortunate enough to land a literary agent and publishing deal around that time, so I was able to quit my full-time job to transition to writing fiction and freelance writing/editing non-fiction, mostly online marketing content.

    I ultimately needed to return to full-time work for financial reasons — but was able to transition into editing and writing rather than returning to the paralegal field. My first position was as a copyeditor and proofreader for less than I had been making as a paralegal (since career switch!). There were aspects of that position I enjoyed, but I was doing a lot more project management than the actual work myself and decided to pivot to something that was more my speed. All of my freelance writing and editing in the SEO realm allowed me to land a job as a content specialist and copywriter at a huge company with a 40% pay increase.

    Fast forward to this year, after three years in that role. I wasn’t really looking to move—even though recruiters do contact me periodically—but I came across a position that really interested me on LinkedIn and thought, “What the heck?” I was nervous at the thought of changing jobs during such an uncertain time, especially when I really enjoyed my job, boss, colleagues, and the company I was at—but I remembered what Alison and everyone here always says about it not hurting to apply or even interview.

    I didn’t hear anything for a few weeks so had pretty much written it off, but then they contacted me for a virtual interview and everything went fast from there. I had two more interviews and did some testing and within two weeks they offered me the job with my requested salary, which was an even larger pay increase than the last time I changed positions. So now I will be back on track to where I should be at this point in my career, making over twice what I was making just a few years ago. This new position is also a nice title bump and something I’m really excited to do. It’s close enough to what I was already doing so I know I can succeed but offers enough new challenges to be a nice growth opportunity. I start in a couple weeks and can’t wait!

    Huge thanks to Alison, whose advice over the years has helped me write amazing cover letters that get a lot of positive attention and, of course, her amazing interview question that I always ask in some form. And to everyone out there who had to take a pay cut to change careers, hang in there! Also, there ARE companies out there hiring even now. My HR contact mentioned that the last few people they hired were unfortunately out-of-work due to COVID. It definitely made me think even more highly of them as a company.

  116. CostAlltheThings*

    Probably too late on a Friday, but is anyone in a ETO environment and have a scheduling tool/system that they love? We pretty much just make teapots but they are fully customizable and sometimes we’ll sell you the add on cups, saucers, or tiny sandwiches :)

    We demo’d Waterloo’s Tactic and have a demo for what Epicor offers but looking for recommendations. Looking for something that is standalone (unless we go with Epicor as we’re currently converting Finance over) We’re still using tribal knowledge plus pen/paper and that system is retiring (half at Christmas and the other half in 2021!). We have more demand than capacity and have ideas about what our bottlenecks might be but really we’re clueless. It’s a mom&pop that still tries to act like like they did in the 80s (we still have an AS400….) but the business has vastly outgrown that model.

  117. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    For a variety of reasons (economical and political mostly), I’m seriously considering leaving my country and find a job elsewhere. However, I felt dejected when I had a look at some sites and found out they will only consider applications from Engineers, Computer Scientists or PhDs… I do have a degree from a reputable college, but it’s none of those, which has caused some issues with some old fashioned or ignorant recruiters. However, I enrolled in the System Engineering program in the same college a few years ago, and been taking a couple of courses a year while working full time, although my grades are not stellar. I’m really worried my lack of accomplishments will make me an undesirable candidate. Has anyone ever tried getting a job through any of those programs?

    1. Liminally Maple*

      As someone who did move countries(US to CA), it is not always straightforward to get hired. Depending on how the country handles immigration, there are some companies/institutions that cannot sponsor work permits. The companies that do generally have to show they couldn’t hire a local, which is difficult for early career job seekers.

      I didn’t use one of the programs, though. It may be more straightforward with assistance.

    2. Phoenix from the ashes*

      As another person who has moved countries, can I ask – do you have your heart set on a particular destination country, or are you open to broader options? Because you may already have the qualifications you need to get a job somewhere, if you’re prepared to move for the job and less so for the destination.

  118. ThePear8*

    Happy Friday! As a student approaching new grad status in the spring, I wonder if anyone has any tips/stories for interviewing for a full-time job vs. interviewing for internships/part-time gigs.
    I recently had my first interview for a full-time job, and I handled it mostly like previous interviews for internships and part-time jobs. I thought it went pretty well! But it was also the first time I got asked about salary expectations – I was caught off guard and clammed up and just named the first number I thought of. So, definitely going to have to read up more on AAM’s salary negotiation articles haha. I’m also in a technical field and it was one of the first interviews where I really got any sort of technical assessment during the interview (most others were online assessments or just asked me more general questions in the interview).
    Some of these are just things I never really thought of or had to deal with from my experience interviewing for internships! I realized as I get more interviews, and especially as I have a large virtual career fair coming up with many of my dream employers being there, I’m going to want to be more prepared. So, anyone have any advice for transitioning mindset from student to full-time opportunities? Anything you found different or wished you knew when interviewing for full-time positions?

  119. Special for Today*

    Kinda bummed. Applied for a job that would be a huge step up on Monday at 12:08pm. Within ten minutes, the recruiter handling the process had scheduled my phone screen. Took it at 4:30 on Tuesday and I think I really handled it very well. She said I’d hear something by the end of this week, because they needed to narrow down to the top candidates so the hiring manager would be able to do 2nd interviews next week. Haven’t heard anything. Sent a quick “thanks for your time” email today but no response.

    I know this doesn’t definitively mean I’m not moving forward, but it was such a rollercoaster of “I’ve reviewed your application and want to schedule an interview” to “I’ll be in contact at the end of the week” to radio silence. I’d just like to know one way or the other, since I’m not applying to other jobs.

    1. Liminally Maple*

      I wouldn’t read too much into it, as it just may be that the recruiter is more efficient than the hiring manager. I don’t see a reason not to apply for other jobs, though.

      1. Special for Today*

        The recruiter told me that she would be the one reaching out with an update, though. That’s what I’m worried about. The not applying to other jobs doesn’t really have anything to do with this job– it’s just that I’m not really interested in anything else out there, so it’s my current job, or this job. So I’d just like to know if it’s new and exciting or same old. Either will be fine. I just want to know.

      1. Special for Today*

        Thanks Nacho, you too. Hopefully it’s just the old “we were wrong about timing” for both of us.

  120. Rusty Shackelford*

    You know that feeling when someone asks for your input, you give it to them, their response is dismissive of your advice (even though you obviously know more about the situation), and you have to sit on your hands to keep from replying because CLEARLY THERE IS NO POINT TO FURTHER DISUCSSION? I am SO there right now.

  121. Lifelong student*

    The advice I have always given is not to do grad work at the same school as your undergrad so you get different viewpoints from professors. This might not be true at a very large institution with a grad program which does not use the same professors as the undergrad program- but at a small school some teach in both programs.

  123. Ramora*

    How do you know if you should monetize your hobby? I’m an artist. It’s just part of who I am. Yet, I struggle to make art unless I’m making it for other people (a gift painting, working on a webcomic idea, making examples for debates on art forums, etc.). So many people say that if you do what you love, you’ll learn to hate it, and of course, art is not known for being a profitable profession. Because of that, I’ve just assumed that I shouldn’t even try to make art for a living. But having realized how hard it is for me to make art without an external goal, I wonder if an art-related career is something I should pursue. So how do you know if that’s a good idea?

    1. Reba*

      I don’t really have an answer, but I know what you mean! Like, am I really going to make a painting to just… put it up in my own house. What if you just dipped your toes in, starting an art instagram and letting it be known you take commissions on your forums and so on? I think most people who sell their art do it as a side hustle for a looooong time or forever. Try it for a while and see if it satisfies you!

    2. stitchinthyme*

      I need to vent a little.

      For a while now, I’ve felt invisible, undervalued, and underutilized at my current job. Everyone else seems busy while I’m struggling to find enough to do every day. There have been a few periods over my 7 years there where I’ve felt productive, but they tend to be followed by months of boredom. It’s worse since the pandemic started and everyone’s been working from home. For instance, during our weekly status call yesterday, I started talking about what I’ve been doing, and my boss started talking over me, asking me about something else — I had to check to see whether I’d inadvertently hit the mute button (I hadn’t). In our biweekly one-on-ones (when he doesn’t blow me off completely), he stresses that I’m valued and they need my skill set, but that never seems to translate into actual work.

      I started a job search in the spring, but ended up deciding to put it on hold because I really didn’t like the idea of starting someplace new without being able to meet my coworkers and managers in person or see where I’d be working. And plus, with the pandemic, so many companies are struggling that it seems like a gamble. But now I’m wondering if I should try again, because this is really getting frustrating. Aside from being really boring (though that’s less of a problem when I’m working from home since there are more distractions — I knitted an entire afghan!), there’s also the fear that someone who is barely doing any work will be the first on the list if they decide to lay people off — they did have a layoff in February (the first in my small company’s history) and I was absolutely shocked that I didn’t get the axe then.

      I know I’m very fortunate to have a well-paying job in these uncertain times, and I suppose some people would think that not having much work is awesome. But it gets really boring, and the stress of wondering when the company is going to realize how little I’m actually doing and get rid of me is not insignificant.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Oops. Didn’t intend to leave the above as a reply to another comment; I meant it to be standalone — sorry!

        1. Ramora*

          No problem! Just make sure you post it as a standalone, too, otherwise you might not get responses here. :)

    3. Always Late to the Party*

      Don’t go from art-as-a-hobby to art-as-sole-career. Start small – see if you start putting your work out there if there’s enough interest for you to make money doing it. CHARGE FOR WHAT YOUR ART IS WORTH NOT WHAT YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL PAY. That means charge for materials and pay yourself a reasonable hourly wage (like 20/hr, not minimum wage. making art is skilled labor). If you get enough interest and you enjoy doing it for money, slowly grow until you can support yourself. Do not expect it to happen overnight.

    4. Pandemic Pumpernickel Princess*

      Something I’ve really been enojoying these past few months is small-scale, word of mouth art and graphic design freelance work. I left a design field to pursue teaching because I knew I didn’t want to make my hobby my profession, but I’m still making a little money while letting myself enjoy the process. Definitely helps to start small as another commenter said!

    5. WellRed*

      This is so interesting to me because I feel like artists create because they have an innate need to do so and they live their art. Like, Famous Artist still would have painted Masterpiece and had a million more unseen stored in the barn. They didn’t do it to fill an order (though that happens too). You’re saying the opposite.

      1. Ramora*

        Both of them are true in a way. Art is part of both my identity and my self care. You know how you feel when you haven’t eaten anything but junk food for a while and then you eat a solid meal with real fruit and veggies and you just feel better/more satisfied in a way? That’s kind of what it’s like if I go too long without making any art and then I make something.

        On the other hand, artmaking is a craft, just like baking, carpentry, or soccer playing. There are mechanical skills you have to master, like being able to control the thickness of a pencil line. There are technical/chemical aspects you have to learn, like how different resins or solvents will affect the integrity of an oil paint film. There are things you have to memorize, like anatomy and how different color schemes portray different moods and times of day. Then there are cultural traditions and conventions you have to learn, like composition and visual tropes.*

        Most of those skills can only be gained through experience, so you can’t just pick up a brush one day and paint what’s in your head. When you take a serious art class, you don’t just make whatever you feel like. It’s like a writing composition class: you have some freedom in choosing a topic, but the exercises and assignments are geared towards helping you learn specific skills. It takes a lot of time spent practicing color charts, shading exercises, and measuring proportions before you become fluent in artmaking. If you only create what and when you feel like creating, you won’t get very far.

        To historical artists, art was a job. They didn’t sit around and paint for fun; they had commissions to fill. It wasn’t even always one person doing the work. Sometimes the master artist would do the composition and drawing while his advanced apprentices would do certain parts of the painting. I forget exactly when, but at one point there were company-like studios, where there was almost an assembly line: one person would make the drawing, then pass it to another who would paint one part and pass it to another who would paint another part, and so on. The idea of art being about self expression or coming from inborn talent is very recent.

        Unfortunately, our current culture does not consider art to be valuable (except when used to pretty up a useful thing). Because of that, the only people who become artists nowadays are those that have a passion for art. Those people definitely have mountains of sketchbooks and paintings in storage, and will make art no matter what. So, yes, today’s artists do create because they need to, but we also create for others, too.

        *I’m using drawing/painting examples here because that’s what I do, but the same skills apply to other forms of art, from sculpture to dance to music to poetry. Art is a huge field, but for some reason the visual arts are considered more mysterious and innate.

    6. ThePear8*

      Fellow artist! I also never tried pursuing art as a career believing it’s not profitable, but I try to freelance and make something of a side-hustle out of it. Now, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned in some cases there are viable ways to make a good living as an artist…for example my sister was telling me tattoo artists can actually make decent money, and industries like games and film require lots of artists. That said, art in those industries is still really competitive, so it depends what you really want to do with your art and how deep you want to go.
      I would personally say, maybe look into freelancing or taking commissions. I take commissions online, and I’m not exploding with clients – but I get a fair few now and then and it’s just a nice way to make a little extra money doing what I love. Have you also thought about something like a Redbubble store? I have one of those too and it is by no means terribly profitable, but they take care of all the manufacturing and shipping for you and all you have to do is upload your art and size it for different products (you also only get a certain margin for each sale though, since they take care of all the manufacturing and shipping fees…I have my margin set at about 30% for all products, because the higher your margin the higher the price for the product goes up, and my bestsellers are stickers, which make me about $0.34 apiece give or take, so do it for fun and maybe some pocket money, don’t start a Redbubble expecting to make big bucks). That said if you are willing to take on some more of the logistics of say making prints or something yourself, you could start an Etsy store or something similar.
      If you have a webcomic, you could say add a donation button – which you can do via something like PayPal, Ko-Fi, or Patreon (I personally have generated buttons with PayPal and Ko-Fi to put on a couple of my comics, and it’s very, very rare but donations do happen!).
      Since your main question is how do you know if you should monetize your hobby, there are some things different artists. If it’s a Redbubble or a donation button on a comic, I say there’s no reason not to do it because it’s literally just passive income. When it comes to commissions, are you okay drawing something custom for someone else? Some people I know don’t do commissions because they feel too much pressure or anxiety trying to make it perfect for a client, and worry that they won’t like it – I personally really enjoy doing commissions because I love when clients are satisfied and I get to draw a lot of things I otherwise normally wouldn’t draw on my own. Are you going to be okay communicating with clients? Saying no to someone if you’re uncomfortable with drawing something? Dealing with a client who wants frequent progress updates? A client who asks for a lot of edits or is constantly changing their mind? Are you okay with handling multiple commissions at once, or would you limit the amount you take on? Are you okay with adjusting your prices (i.e. giving yourself a raise if demand increases or you realize you’re undercharging, or charging more for commercial use, etc. It might seem natural to give yourself more money but a lot of people feel worried asking for more)?
      I think it’s a good strategy to have a full career and keep art as a hobby, and it is definitely a hobby that can be monetized. Maybe you can tell but this is a topic I’m pretty passionate about haha so I’m always up for discussing the side hustle of art.

  124. HRGirl*

    Does anyone have any experience managing responses to Glassdoor reviews? Trying to understand if and how to engage with both positive and negative feedback? Thanks in advance!

    1. PX*

      I’ve never done it but as a candidate who always checks Glassdoor reviews for prospective companies (see my comment below!) – if you are going to respond publicly to the comments on Glassdoor – think about the impression that leaves for others. Essentially you are now part of the companies public promotional material – what do you want that to look like?

      One company I’m currently looking at, HR seems to leave responses sort of equally to positive and negative feedback. But the responses to the negative feedback seem pretty formulaic and like they arent actually addressing any of the concerns. I get that its impossible to be able to give a substantiative response to one angry, ranty comment without knowing more – but this is where tone is super important. If you choose to do it, the key thing is to find a way to strike the right tone of “we take bad reviews seriously and want to fix any issues” and “we appreciate it when people like our company”.

  125. Pandemic Pumpernickel Princess*

    I’m so excited to share that my unemployment claim from July was finally accepted after a long battle with PUA! Now I can worry less about money and work on my freelance side gig without so much pressure. It feels great!

  126. LawyerBird*

    The recruiting coordinator at an organization I’ve had a few interviews with in the last couple weeks asked to meet with me to discuss “interviews generally.” I can only assume this is bad news and she wants to give constructive feedback. I thought the interviews went very well. There are a few things I wished I’d done a little differently, but I don’t think I made any glaring errors. I know logically that if they didn’t like me, she wouldn’t offer to help. And I don’t know yet what exactly she will say. I’m just bummed that I’m most likely out of the running for the positions I interviewed for. One in particular seemed like a great fit. And I can’t help feel self-conscious that I’m in my 40s and still don’t know how to interview well! Just needed to get off my chest. Thanks for “listening.”

    1. SR*

      Please don’t assume this is bad news! Her way of framing the context seems unusual (even a bit odd) and could mean a lot of different things. And regardless, it is just feedback from this one person or one organization.

      1. LawyerBird*

        Thank you for your comment :) I know, it could be neutral or good news. I do really care about her opinion, though, as this is the only organization I’m targeting and she is involved in the hiring process for all departments. I am currently employed and in a fine situation, but I am really excited about the possibility of transitioning to this org.

        1. SR*

          Like you said, the fact that she even *wants* to take the time to speak with you means something positive. I would be overthinking it too, so I can totally understand that the waiting it out is stressful, but she isn’t going to set up a time to talk with you unless they are invested in continuing the conversation with you about working for them now or in the future!
          When are you speaking with her? I will be very interested to check back here for an update if you’ll post one! I’m wishing you all the best and hope it’s a positive outcome! On a side note, Alison’s free guide to interview prep (downloadable from the home page of AAM) has been my secret weapon for interviews. If you take the time to go through it step by step, it’s an incredibly valuable tool!

          1. LawyerBird*

            Thanks again. It’s so hard not to be nervous! I’m usually pretty even-keeled, but I really care about this! And all my old insecurities are rushing back. She initially wanted to chat Tuesday, but then I found out I got selected for an interview with another group on Monday, so she wants to chat Sunday evening! I will post an update on next week’s thread.

            1. SR*

              Good luck! I will keep an eye out for the update on next week’s thread. And congrants on the interview Monday — clearly they are impressed with you!

  127. PX*

    I’m casually job searching because the job I was really excited to start has turned out to be a terrible culture fit. I’m amused because when researching some of the companies I’m interested in Glassdoor, they all have really high ratings, and the reviews themselves are 4 or 5 stars, but the comments are terrible :’D

    I’m actually wondering if people are forced to leave them (these are big companies, but I also wouldnt be surprised) – which is sad but not that unexpected…

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, sometimes HR starts campaigning to get current employees to leave reviews on Glassdoor.
      I’ve never seen people forced into leaving good ones, but yeah, they’re asked.
      I have heard of a few nefarious companies writing fake ones.

      I think truth falls in the middle. The most real reviews fall in the middle of the road, like 2-3 stars.

  128. Lost In Data*

    How can you recover from a career downward spiral? Has anyone been able to turn around a position that wasn’t a great fit initially into something great?

    I had a great career about 10 years ago, which began to fall apart after getting caught in a layoff (I had joined a foundation-funded startup that changed direction and restructured). I thought I was finally recovering and had a senior/director-level position … until the company essentially furloughed me late last year (mgmt stopped paying me but kept me employed and assigned work). Problem is the firm blew a gasket when I filed for unemployment, and after that legal battle, I’m pretty sure they’re blacklisting me from other positions even though the settlement required language for references.

    In the meantime, I moved cross-country for what I thought was a comparable senior position in (what was supposed to be a late-stage) startup a month before COVID lockdowns. It’s been a nightmare for many reasons outside of work as well (thanks COVID for the random high fevers 6 months later), but most importantly being that the role turned out to be drastically different than what was represented – citing this is a growing company, I was told it’s “fine and normal” for the gross mismatch of job roles and expectations. I then was transferred to a different department that uses a small sliver of my expertise and told to “work it out” with the coworker whose role I was to split as a peer. I feel so unmoored as my skills and expertise are drastically underutilized.

    What did you do to make that work – additional professional development, mentorship, roadmap, etc.? Or, did you cut your losses and end up negotiating severance? How did you turn around your coverletter/interview/resume to get an appropriate position in your next role?

    1. Only After Dark*

      I would use AAM’s suggestions for cover letters, resumes, and interviews and seek out well established, non-start up companies. It’s not too late to utilize your skills and be fulfilled.

  129. Wired Wolf*

    I have a job! It’s the grocery store where I was working before this most recent job. It’s a bit surreal…I left S when I was poached by E, only to be fired by E and come back to S. It says something about the companies’ respective outlooks at least to me; the present incarnation of E is fully embracing its fancyness and wants drones and butt-kissers with no initiative of their own (which is quite sad given how the store started out), while S puts work ethic first. (I still have quite the fan club over at S and know they’ll be thrilled to see me again)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m so glad that you’re back with the place that treats you right!

      It happens, some companies are SO THIRSTY and will poach people left and right…only to chew them up and spit them right back out. It’s unfortunate and can actively harm so many good workers who are just looking to do a good job and get paid for it.

      1. Wired Wolf*

        Yup. Sad the way things turned out, but we were all seriously rethinking things when our amazing manager got forced out and that idiot ‘supervisor’ got brought in (nobody was happy about my being denied the position). It was a decent run though and I didn’t seem to have a future there under present mismanagement.

        I still have a not-vested 401K with E…I’m trying to find out if it will vest on termination (if not, I lose a not-inconsequential chunk of change). They’re telling me to contact the issuer, the issuer tells me to contact the company so we shall see. I also have a commuter benefit card that I paid into that will ‘expire’ next month and I need to find out how or even if I can actually get that money back (by law the money is mine, even pretax…).

  130. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I had the most awkward virtual meeting, where I called in because uh, I don’t have a camera and even if I did, I don’t want to use a damn camera! But they just assumed I saw them? And were talking like I could see them…or like we were sharing a screen.

    Anyone who does these camera meetings, can’t you tell when someone is just phoning in?! Last time this happened, it was with one of my colleagues who enjoys a camera session so he logged in and told me I could log in and see the cameras even without one, while I was on the phone. Turns out on that one, the reps were just also phoning in, he was the only one on camera during the whole thing, whomp whomp whomp.

    I guess that it could have been that it looked like I was in there but without my camera on, so I could see them…I wouldn’t know. I just called the phone number.

    Again, cameras are the devil’s playtoy, do-not-want!

    1. Colette*

      Most tools I’ve used, you can join the meeting and turn your camera off – so you can see anything that’s being presented but no one can see you. Is that an option for you?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It should be an option, I get the link and have done it the one time before. I’m a turd who didn’t even THINK about the whole “presentation” part. Which I only got once they were like “Let me show you something…”

        I’ll remember this in the future. Thankfully reps are starting to visit again, damn do I hate phones and now video calls on top of my general hate for phones.

    2. OyHiOh*

      One of the staff people I work with is in a spot with ocassionally flaky internet that’s prone to dropping out in the middle of something important. When his ‘net drops and he calls in on the phone line instead, his box on the Zoom screen shows up with a phone icon, so yes, I would assume that at least some people on the meeting knew you were there on a phone line and maybe trying badly to not acknowledge the weirdness.

      On your end, there should be an option when you join a meeting, to join on your computer with audio only. This will show your name in a box, but not your face, but you’ll also still be able to see everyone, and see screen shares and such.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Can’t do audio only on my computer either, I have no mic and my speaker is joke. I can barely hear my voicemails if I try to listen to them as the audio file I’ll get emailed to me *face desk*

        But I’ll def us the link to see people next time instead of assuming it’s just a standard conference call.

        1. ronda*

          I got a headphone/mic with a usb connector for a online class i was taking.
          Worked well on a computer without a mic and a little more private than having the computer on speaker.

          I have also used the computer screen, but called in on phone, but the headphone is a little easier than that setup

    3. SR*

      I can tell when someone is phoning in for audio, but it isn’t uncommon for someone to call in using their phone but still log in on the computer and be able to see others, so maybe that’s what they assumed? It could also depend on how many people are on the call — if it’s more participants than would fit onto one viewing screen (i.e. more than 16 or so), it would be hard to track who is participating by phone vs computer.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Oh it was not that big of a deal, it was only 3 of us. One of those awkward times where there’s two reps to one client that they’re “meeting” with setup.

        But I’ll pull up the video next time, even though it squicks me out so much, I know its’ a personal “I’m werid” thing. I don’t mind if you see me, you can come and see me in person [at a respectable footage away] but haaaaaaaaaaaaaate cameras haaaaaaaaaate, they don’t add 10lbs, they add 20,000lbs in my mind.

        1. SR*

          I hated webcams too until COVID, but now I’ve had to be on so many Zoom meetings that I’m used to it, even though I still don’t love it. But I have to facilitate a lot of formal meetings, so I’m always relieved when it’s one I don’t have to facilitate, or it’s just informal with my manager or colleague. I hate facilitating meetings on Zoom! (I don’t like facilitating them in person either, but it’s much better than Zoom.)

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Usually you can tell when someone is phoning in because you can still see an icon and the phone number. At least it is this way for Skype and Teams and GoToMeeting. I’m not sure with Zoom, as I don’t use that.

        My manager (a VP level) always calls out the phone-in and asks who is at xxx-xxx-xxxx number. Usually it’s team members traveling or with bad Internet connections. LOL! Really, he’s suspicious because he doesn’t like anyone on our team calls but our team because we can all speak frankly about work without management. I guess outsiders have tried to call-in in the past and listen in. And to be fair, he’s right, because there is one particular executive who will do that uninvited just to be nosy.

    4. BRR*

      It depends on the program. I think zoom does but I can’t remember. I think most peole just don’t pay attention to that.

  131. OyHiOh*

    Two weeks into NewJob and it is a ride and a half. I anticipated much of this because I knew a bit about the org’s history prior to my being hired and I’m ok with the start up culture we’ve got going on right now. Nobody wants to maintain a start up for long so, and four out of the five of us are brand new, so we’re all working on documenting our policies and procedures, and cross training each other on where/how/why so that nothing is a mystery to anyone.

    I was hired as an admin assistant. Four days in, got a title promotion to office manager. Yay, good for me, pat on the back!

    Question, although it may be too late in the day: I need to set up a system or policy/procedure (not sure where this fits in that range of possibilities) to solve a problem that will occur two or more times a month. Lets say certain teapots we make need to be signed by quality control experts who A) are not on site and B) do not get paid for this as it is a volunteer duty related to community involvement. This first round of teapot landed on my desk on day two of NewJob and did not finally clear QC until yesterday, many emails, phone calls, appeals to assistants in other offices, and intervention from my boss, later. The QC people are busy people, working full time from home, and dealing with complex state/regional issues of commerce and governance during a pandemic and are therefore difficult to get a hold of and may or may not respond well to email or phone calls. What kind of system/policy/procedure could I look at implementing, that would make getting teapots looked at and signed easier?

    1. SR*

      I do some work in policy and procedure but really feel like I’d need more info to be able to offer any useful advice. The teapot analogy is all good but getting a little more specific as to what industry you are in would be helpful, or what kind of “thing” you are submitting for QC clearance (a product? a design? a document?).
      If you’re dealing with unresponsive folks who are not getting paid to do the QC work, there might not be a policy or system that can resolve it, but the key would be making it as easy and clear a process as possible — maybe a form with checkboxes and dropdown menus if there isn’t something like that in place.

      1. OyHiOh*

        My org is a non profit, quasi government org whose federal segregation of duties and reporting requirements around finances and checks are being taken extremely literally by our finance officer.

        In a world where digital review of documents prior to signing them is acceptable by IRS and auditing standards, or finance officer wants originals of these documents physically handled/reviewed prior to signing.

        1. SR*

          Wait, as in you need to get signed originals in the hands of the QC people via mail or fedex or something? If that is what you mean, that’s asinine, I don’t know how to fix that!
          I’m confused about QC people being volunteers, and how this all fits together. (Does the finance offer want you to mail originals to the volunteer QC folks?) But if your boss has any leverage to convince the finance officer to move into the 21st century, that is where I would start. Regardless, if your boss is somewhat reasonable, you could discuss what you see as the barriers to solving the problem and implementing an efficient system or procedure around this issue. “Since FinanceOfficer requires we send originals to QC for review, this creates multiple delays due to X and Y. How do you suggest I approach this, and do you think there’s any possibility of working with (manager, director, or FinanceOfficer’s boss, etc.) on moving to digital review of documents, which is a standard office procedure these days?”
          A lot depends on the hierarchy, how senior your boss is, etc. This reminds me of a current situation at my job. Basically, there was a change in leadership in a department that needs to authorize our contracts; they changed some key policies midstream and are now requiring a lot of burdensome paperwork that doesn’t even make sense. But my boss is a very senior manager, so we were able to come up with a workaround plan that my boss will be discussing with his boss, and with the proper support, we should be able to get the workaround authorized. But that is because my boss is senior and is also very influential.
          Congrats on the new job and title promotion, btw!

  132. Amethyst*

    Is this normal for a college?

    A couple weeks ago I had an extremely negative experience with a prospective college’s accommodations department re: a disability I have. The person I interacted with was extremely dismissive (think along the lines of telling a legally blind person to just “enlarge your font”, “just keep rereading the line until you understand what it’s saying” & such). I called them out on it, gave specific examples of why their suggestions wouldn’t work, & said I was very disappointed in their response. They doubled down on their initial email, claiming they were “just being helpful”. I again called them out on that & informed them that based on this extremely disappointing interaction I was looking elsewhere to continue my education. There was silence after. No apology, nothing.

    I sat on this for about a week because I couldn’t decide whether I wanted to expend the energy of escalating this email conversation to their supervisor, & finally did so a few days ago because I didn’t want anyone else to have a similarly negative experience in future, & emailed their Title IX department, forwarding the entire chain.

    …That department is also run by the same person I had the issue with.

    I wound up calling the school itself, deeply disturbed & troubled by this, asking who this person’s supervisor is. The operator revealed that the person I had been interacting with holds the title of Director of Compliance. (!!!!!)

    Why is there so little oversight in this one area? Surely this isn’t normal within higher education? Shouldn’t there be at least 3 people to handle each department (one for each area)? WTF???

    1. Enough*

      Depends on the size of the school. At smaller schools many people wear many hats. And if historically they have not had a lot of issues none of these specific areas may take up anyone’s full attention so they are given related duties.

      1. BRR*

        At a smaller school this wouldn’t surprise me at all. At a poorly run, larger school this also wouldn’t surprise me. You can still escalate it though, likely to the provost, General counsel, or even HR.

  133. Don't Think About a Cat*

    I’ve gotten a new position with a great company that represents a real step forward. I wasn’t looking for another job, since I was up for a promotion at my current place, but the company I work for is toxic, and I am eager for a change. I’m working out my notice now. We’ve been shut down for much of the summer (we could talk about that, oh my), but we’re due to reopen to the public next week. It’s terrible timing, but it couldn’t be helped. I should say that I’ve been well liked at this position, by management, partners, and clients.

    I had submitted several expenses for reimbursement over the summer, and there are two requests that are still outstanding. They were both approved, I just haven’t seen the money yet. I could see them trying to retroactively deny them, on the basis that they won’t be getting the advantages of the investment, and also because they are petty little B-words. However, I spent that money in good faith, and I believe they should absorb them as a cost of doing business. Thoughts on how to approach this? I’m not even sure whom to approach, but I know I don’t trust the two layers of management above me to act without malice.

    And also, I could use survival tips. Even without my resignation, this was going to be a turbulent week for the division. The last time we tried to reopen, we nearly shook apart on the launch pad. It was like the worst Black Friday ever. We’ll have upper management coming to visit, and it’s going to be so AWKWARD. At best, they’ll be looking for me to rugsweep. Thanks for any suggestions.

    1. PX*

      Start chasing the reimbursement as soon as possible. Dont wait, and approach it super factually like it would be any other thing that just needs to be done before you leave. But dont let them say no or delay.

      IANAL but I’ve believe if they completely refuse to do it, you can file a claim to try and recover it once you leave depending on your state, but someone else would need to confirm that.

  134. Danny*

    Hi all, hope I’m not too late for the thread!

    I’m an experienced team leader for a tech company. My department was recently reshuffled and I have some new team members.

    One of them, who I’ll call Lizzie, is kind of extraordinary. She joined the business 18 months ago as an external candidate. Our department tends to recruit internally most of the time because of the benefit we get from staff who’ve worked in different departments and have a good all-round understanding of our company and its software and processes. We do hire externally, but at a much lower rate than internal transfers. Lizzie was an exceptional candidate who seemed willing to put in the work to build up the knowledge she needed, so we took the chance on her.

    She’s been a total revelation. She learns quickly, thinks critically, works hard and has picked up our processes easily. Within a couple of months of joining the team, the experienced staff member who was training her was already asking for her advice. When we’re resourcing complex projects, people from inside and outside the department ask for her.

    She’s clearly hugely capable and I want to help develop her as several layers of management have been clear that they want to keep her, and keep her happy. We’ve given her 2 pay rises already since she joined us (equalling a total of around 15% of her initial salary) and regularly give her glowing feedback, and I’ve recently started helping her gather the evidence she’ll need to submit if she wants to apply for a promotion.

    Last week, Lizzie confided to me that she suffers badly with impostor syndrome. I’ve noticed that praise tends to bounce straight off her, and she admitted that it doesn’t mean that much to her as she assumes I’m being polite and she’s really very ordinary. Every time anything goes well (which is pretty much everything she works on), she assumes it’s a fluke or she’s a fraud or everyone else has succeeded and she’s been carried along by it. She says her brain even tells her she can’t have impostor syndrome because she’s not successful enough.

    Does anyone have any tips on how I, as her manager, can help her deal with this? She says she’s working on ignoring her inner doubts, and I understand that her outlook can really only be driven by her, but I’d like to be able to get through to her, help her understand her worth and push forward to get to the position in the company she deserves, where she can achieve the most.

    1. Jane*

      Hmm I’m not sure there’s much you can do, but it’s really nice of you to want to help! I would say one thing I appreciate, as someone can be hard on herself (though I wouldn’t say I have imposter syndrome), is really really specific praise. It’s easy for jerk brain to dismiss vaguely encouraging phrases like “The work you did was great!” It’s a lot harder for jerk brain to dismiss praise like: “Wow! That process you implemented upped our efficiency by almost 100%! Look at these statistics!”

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Something else you could consider is asking her about why she is so distrustful of the source of the compliments. Maybe, as Jane offered, they are too vague; most of us do prefer specific, targeted praise. Why? Because it means someone has really paid close attention to what we did.

      If specificity isn’t the issue, does she have a sincere belief that every single person offering compliments on her work performance has no useful, relevant or extensive past experience to draw on as the basis for those compliments, and therefore their opinions should not be trusted? What kind of role would they have to be in, what kind of past experiences would they need to have, how many years of work in the industry would be enough, before she *would* trust that their judgments of her competence were accurate?

      Helping her understand why she is rejecting the compliments–and that the reasons for her distrust might be based on false assumptions–might help her reframe her thinking and accept them more easily. Good luck, and please come back and let us know how things worked out.

  135. SoftwareWiz*

    I had a similar situation with someone I was training. Then they traveled to do field work with another engineer from a different company with more experience but much less ability. The comparison gave my young engineer instant confidence in how far they had advanced, much more so than any words I could have said.

  136. babblemouth*

    So I need to vent a bit. I applied for a job internally in my company a few months ago. It was a bit of a stretch up but I had a unique specialty background that I thought would give me a leg up. I got a rejection before even making it to the first interview round, saying that they had a lot of external candidates with experience that was a precise match, not a stretch. As it would have been a step up in our HR ladder, they couldn’t justify it. OK, fine.
    Today, I found out who got the job. It is someone in my team, at the exact same level as me, without the speciality background that I have. We worked on a project in that specialty area last year, and he spent 2 months saying how impressed he was by my knowledge and that he could never do this. And now he got the job over me.
    I had to keep a straight face when he made his happy announcement in our team meeting, but I am fuming inside.

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